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Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say

tim-allen-16x9

Here are some things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on. Maybe it is just me. Commenters can offer their own opinions and examples.

Those with links have posts of their own:

Caucasian – an outdated scientific term this sounds odd to me, like Oriental or Negro. On the other hand, White Americans still use it to refer to themselves and would know best if it is offensive.

ching chong – mocking or stereotyping a person’s language (or limited English) shows a lack of respect.

different (cultural) background – often used as a “nice”, unracist-sounding way to say that blacks, Latinos, non-Westerners, etc, are screwed up. Comes from an ethnocentric, deficiency model of people of colour – aka cultural racism.

ghetto – as an adjective it is used as a put-down for those parts of working-class black culture not yet appropriated by whites.

Hollywood stereotypes – American film and television do not present a true-to-life picture of people of colour. Not even the news. Because those things are run by white people. Even BET.

ethnic – used as if White Americans do not have their own holidays, foods, neighbourhoods, restaurants, accents, ideas of beauty, etc.

Eurocentric terms – words that set up white Westerners as the centre of the world. Examples: ethnic, exotic, native, tribal, regular, normal, backward, underdeveloped, etc.

exotic – normalizes whiteness.

I’m not racist but… – if you have to say it, you probably are.

inner city – sounds objective and unracist, but it means the part of the city where few white people live.

minorities – soon everyone in America will be a minority. Featured in so many racist statements that it makes my skin crawl.

Mock Ebonics – in my experience, whites mainly use it as a sort of extended, condescending put-down. See ching chong.

Mock Spanish – Spanish is one of the great languages of the Western world. Making fun of it (“No problemo”, etc) makes you look like an ignorant, arrogant twit. See ching chong.

names – not trying to get a person’s name right shows a lack of respect.

N-word – it is a racial slur when applied by a white person to a black person, despite what Tim Allen (pictured) says.

Negro – dated.

Oriental – dated.

oversensitive – said by insensitive racist jerks.

personal preference – when it falls in line with hundreds of years of white racist thinking, it is unlikely to be personal.

purple people – and polka-dotted ones too. Used to belittle the issue
of race.

Quoting Martin Luther King – mostly used by whites to silence talk of racism.

racial slurs – are racist. Examples: chink, coon, cracker, Flip, gook, honky, Jap, jigaboo, nigger, spic, whitey.

racist jokes – are racist. They strengthen racism.

Some of my best friends are black – mainly said by clueless racists.

sub-Saharan Africa – an objective-sounding way to say Black Africa – with a “sub” thrown in.

white proverbs – stock expressions whites use to centre whiteness. Examples:

whitey – a racial slur mostly used by whites to make blacks seem racist.

– Abagond, 2013.

See also:

618 Responses

  1. I have seen a white Hispanic guy use Mock Spanish with a group of WASP friends in a disdainful tone. I ask myself if he would keep that attitude if he were darker and looked more like his father.

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  2. Word

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  3. @ abagond

    You could maybe add “ethnic foods” to your list. White people mock blacks for eating fried chicken, watermelon, grape soda, grits, and fruit rollup. Similarly, Hispanics are mocked for eating beans, tacos, and quesadillas. Asians are mocked for eating dog meat (which most Asians don’t even eat).

    I was carrying some food to my table with a couple of friends once and a white male lowlife looking at me said “Ooh, look at me! I’m Asian! I can’t WAIT to eat my dog meat!” There were between 10 to 15 other white people sitting at his table, and they all burst into laughter. They were so disgusting.

    I also read in the news about how some white students stuck slices of ham into Muslim students’ sandwiches.

    One of my black friends was eating a banana once, and I noticed a couple of white guys a distance away pointing at him and snickering. I don’t know what they were saying to each other.

    I also read about how white sports fans will toss banana peels at black athletes they don’t like.

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  4. illegal – no human is illegal

    alien – dated and dehumanizing

    undocumented – dated. Instead use RPI “Registered Provisional Immigrant”

    Hispanic – Proceeded with caution. Most “Hispanics” prefer “Latino”; unless they have no European heritage. For example, indigenous Mexicans, indigenous Central Americans and indigenous South Americans are not Latino; in which case one could use Hispanic – but the word Hispanic ignores their indigenous identity to the Americas; in which case you can use the scientific term Amerindian.

    Colored – dated. should be “People of Color”, not “colored people”

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  5. why the picture of tim allen?

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  6. What makes my skin crawls is when whites use words like: monkey, ape, gorilla, etc .. to describe black people.

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  7. […] "Here are some things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on….Commenters can offer their own opinions and examples."  […]

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  8. There was controversy about Tim Allen and the n-word. Yeah, that was one time he should have kept his stupid mouth shut. And Michael Richards and the n-word. Those are two examples that come to my mind, also Mel Gibson and his meltdown using this epithet.

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  9. Linking to this page might shorten many Internet discussions.

    I always found “Caucasian” odd, from the first time I heard it in some American TV series and had no idea what they were saying. It was as if they were trying to make whiteness special by giving a fancy name to it.

    And I must admit I’ve been using “underdeveloped” quite regularly to discuss my own country. I don’t know how I’d feel if a foreigner used it, though. I’d never seriously thought about that until now.

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  10. I wish someone would duck tape Chelsey Handler’s stupid mouth. And Ann Coulter, she is always saying something appalling.

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  11. lol mary, yep and I would also like to duct tape all of fox news anchors mouths along with don lemon.

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  12. developing country – as if “developed countries” are finished developing and now perfect and superior

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  13. @ kiwi

    Wtf they mock us for fruit roll ups rofl, I don’t even eat that I can’t remember the last time I did, I wonder why they would mock ppl eating a dam candy. I personally like snickers and twix lol. As for the banana thing they are crazy I mean we can’t win for nothing, they say black ppl are overweight then when we eat fruits omg rofl they eating a banana and watermelon, me personally I don’t look at anybody while they eat a banana cuz my mind is in the gutter sometimes bahwhwha.

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  14. @mstoogood4yall: Let’s look for that duct tape. lol.

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  15. I got some right here oh and I have some superglue as well just in case they can wiggle their way out of the duct tape.

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  16. What’s funny about fruit roll ups? And I didn’t know about the grape soda.

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  17. I knew about the grape soda but not the fruit roll ups I don’t know wtf is funny about fruit roll ups, if we eat spinach and broccoli they will start making fun of that too, smh. I guess we not allowed to eat no more without being mocked guess might as well get a feeding tube so they can’t see what I eat ooh or blend it all up and slurp it out a cup lol.

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  18. oh and we mocked for eating grits ok, #teamoatmeal lol, grits is a southern thing especially cheese grits, are they going to laugh at the way we breathe too, omg black ppl breath in a lot of air and u can hear them breathing. smh.

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  19. […] "Here are some things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on….Commenters can offer their own opinions and examples."  […]

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  20. when they say I tolerate you, or they say you people blah blah blah or they use fake statistics.

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  21. The Ching Chong thing…

    I saw an image macro shared on FB recently that I think should shut a lot of English people up. It said:

    “A foreign accent means that the owner speaks at least one more language than you do.”

    White English people rarely speak more than one language. If they go abroad they communicate by shouting which apparently makes English instantly understandable to everyone. :/ My late father used to raise his voice to Spanish people and put on what he thought was a Spanish accent. He assumed it would make his English easier for the people to understand, and would not be disuaded.

    Sometimes we’re not intentionally offensive. Sometimes we’re just dumb.

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  22. I agree with this post. Nicely written. I don’t think MANY White Americans will ever stop saying these things because many of them see themselves as superior to us. No one is superior to anyone! This doesn’t go to all White Americans because there are some good ones out there but many of them.

    @Mary

    LOL I wish someone can duct tape’s Glen Beck’s mouth or Rush Limbaugh’s mouth as well . Honestly these men get on my nerves because they always speak up things related to Black people when they are racist against us.

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  23. @ Adeen: I agree that Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh’s traps should be duct taped. Maybe Abagond can do a post on who needs their mouth duct taped. lol.

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  24. And don’t forget when they touch our hair and make comments about it. As a Black female, my hair is always a sense of curiosity to these people. In fact, they are always fascinated by the many ways we style our hair. I don’t understand why they are so curious about our hair then many of them make rude comments behind our backs about Black hair.

    I don’t like it when they touch my hair randomly, I am a human being not an animal put on display! I know many other Black women can relate to this as I go through it.

    Don’t forget the way they insist that they are against Affirmative Action because it favors Black people getting jobs based on their color yet White women are the ones who benefit from Affirmative Action the most.

    Don’t forget the way White policemen racially target and arrest Black men and women for no reason other than being Black and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Don’t forget the way the System systematically oppresses us Black people and many other minorities either.

    I doubt MANY Whites will ever stop doing these things because they can get away with it because of their White privilege. No, this doesn’t apply to all White people but many of them.

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  25. I think “Oriental” has a status more similar to “Colored”, and is not only dated, but used is racist ways in previous generations. The dated words used similar to “Negro” were “Asiatic” and “Mongolian”.

    Parts of the Inner City that have become gentrified are no longer called Inner City. What are they called?

    And I have seen “My Wife (or even girlfriend) is Asian” as a growing substitute for “Some of my best friends are black”.

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  26. @ With Love Glen
    I think we should call countries “less-industrialized” rather than “developing.”

    @ Abagond
    What phrase should replace “racial minorities” now that white people are barely the majority race? “Non-white people” might make sense. Not that “white” is even an accurate description of most “white” people’s skin color. “People who look like the majority of people living in Europe and have no recent ancestors who don’t look like those people” might be more accurate term, though not exactly a convenient one to use…

    Abagond, if a “white” person had a Native/Original American ancestor in fairly recent history (1800s), is it actually correct for this person to call him/herself white? On the one hand, he/she looks “white” and is treated as a white person by society. On the other hand, is it an unfair disowning/coverup of one’s “non-white” heritage? Would it be more accurate if he/she checked “mixed-race” or “other” when filling out forms, or would that be a sort of cultural appropriation? Anybody besides Abagond who has any insight into this, I’d like to know your ideas too.

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  27. @Adeen

    And don’t forget when they touch our hair and make comments about it.

    We need a separate post entitled “Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Do” :P

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  28. @With Love Glenn

    developing country – as if “developed countries” are finished developing and now perfect and superior

    Unfortunately, that is a term that is still favored by many “developing countries”, if anything, to give them a pass for not having more democratic political systems or for encouraging environmentally destructive industries or for not instituting pollution controls.

    So I see it not so much a purely “white” problem, but a word that is used and abused throughout the world.

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  29. @Paige

    if a “white” person had a Native/Original American ancestor in fairly recent history (1800s), is it actually correct for this person to call him/herself white?

    Technically, people are allowed to self-identify now. For example, we have the Piscataway Indians in Maryland or the Lumbee in North Carolina calling themselves Native Americans, even though they are mostly of European and African descent and do not speak any of the ancestral language or practice their cultural traditions. But, even if a person, say, had a “full-blooded” Native American parent and the other parent was part Native American, the person should also be allowed to identify with their non-Native American side if they feel more comfortable with that.

    Multiracial people should have the right to identify as they wish, and it could change in different circumstances. Dr. Maria P.P. Root has even formulated a “Bill of Rights” for multiracial people.
    http://www.drmariaroot.com/doc/BillOfRights.pdf

    In this vein, I have no problem if Tiger Woods wants to identify as a white person most of the time, yet call himself Cablinasian if people ask him about his race, or if Wentworth Miller wants to identify as Black. If Ne-Yo suddenly wants to decide that he is Chinese (say, because he was very close to his Chinese grandfather), we also should have no problem with that. People should have that right.

    Now, of course, I think it gets a bit ridiculous when someone is 1/32 something and has never identified with that heritage, but suddenly claims it just to make themselves appear more interesting. It is not interesting.

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  30. Abagond… This is going way too far. Once you tell one group what they are not allowed to say, or what they “probably shouldn’t say,” that will just cause more animosity between people and more hate on both sides. The white people will get angry because we live in a free society.. and the non whites will have more things to get mad at whites for, and justify their hatred for them.

    Check out this article I think it is very true. (http://www.infowars.com/the-establishment-is-successfully-starting-a-race-war/) I think this is a divide and conquer tool. I heard you can’t say “brown bagging it” anymore in Seattle. Now even you might say that is going too far. I also heard “citizen” is frowned upon because that might offend non citizens in the workplace. Total BS.

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  31. @ Abagond

    You know ‘white folk’ gonna say whatever they d@mn well please because remember they’re the true Americans and anyone else are just foreigners/leaches on their white resources. If anything this will just give them more ammunition to keep on keeping on with their white mind set. *End of sarcasm ;-)*

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  32. One thing it’s about time white people stopped saying is “yes.”

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  33. Dave, I am not sure if you misread the point of the article. (I am only guessing after reading your comment.)

    I think it is a call to be sensitive about using these words and that a listener may have certain psychological reactions towards it. It is not meant to incite animosity, but mutual understanding. The word “minority” makes Abagond’s skin crawl. Now, of course, you can use it if you wish, but try to understand that it makes some people’s skin crawl.

    Anyhow, his primary audience is not white people. Maybe it will help some non-whites broach the subject why some of these words make them or others uncomfortable. And if it does that, then it has served its purpose.

    The link that you provided is not the same issue as the article. That link talks about fueling racial divisions to incite a race war. Abagond’s article has nothing whatsoever to do with that (and it is a bit inflammatory on your part to add a link to an inflammatory article to comment on an article that is not meant to be inflammatory). It is call to increase awareness of words used in US society that cause people, esp. minorities (sic) – (I mean “non-whites”) uncomfortable.

    Why do you assume that articles like these are used to incite hate? I think the purpose is the EXACT opposite. It seems like you want to turn it into something else (ie, something that will try to incite hate just like the link you provided).

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  34. @Jefe. The article might not have talked about certain words accepted in the court of public opinion, but the premise of divide and conquer is still relevant here. It is something that will cause great polarity because if you were white you wouldn’t like people telling you what not to say, and if you are black or others you get how some of these words can bother you, but when it is spelled out in the media and other places ie comedians and talk show hosts and bloggers, then it becomes more of an infraction than just a nuisance. Now if this spreads more it will be “what he said minority.. or brown bagging it!.. He should be stoned!” I guess the article doesn’t stress my point, but divide and conquer is a real thing.

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  35. Gee,

    if you were white you wouldn’t like people telling you what not to say

    I think “probably shouldn’t say” and “not to say” are very different things. The fact that you read a different meaning into it says something more about your interpretation of these issues rather than the actual content of the article. Would you prefer if the article were titled “Stuff that non-whites often hear white people say that could make non-whites feel uncomfortable”? Then that would put the onus on the non-whites, about *their* feelings and that from a white person’s perspective, they should probably just “get over it”. That wouldn’t be the point of the article either, but the rewording of the title might make white people more comfortable.

    Maybe you can use it for educational purposes then. Since you feel very uncomfortable with the article’s title and would prefer to reword it, maybe you can understand why some people would feel uncomfortable with some of the words on the list and prefer that THEY be reworded.

    I saw nothing in Abagond’s article about inciting hate. I don’t see how you got from “the word ‘minority’ makes my skin crawl” to “He should be stoned”.

    Maybe then, you can explain how you think others might view the article that enables them to extrapolate ideas of racial hatred and violence from what Abagond wrote. It would be helpful to understand the reasoning process involved.

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  36. I never understood the Black people and watermelon thing. Or any other X race and Y food thing, for that matter. First of all, I don’t know why it is so amusing that someone might like a certain food or why you would mock them for that. Second of all, melons in general are popular with East Asians and I read Asian Americans consume the most watermelons out of everyone in the US. Just goes to show stereotypes aren’t often based on truth, I suppose.

    Even though I have been called a ch*nk, I find the ching chong and all its variants to be a lot more infuriating. Chinese people (and South East Asians and other East Asians, since people think we’re all the same) are the only race that has their language mocked worldwide with the same racist phrase.

    People always excuse it by saying `But that’s what it really sounds like!’ No, that’s what it sounds like to your ignorant, uneducated mind that only wants to accept what it THINKS is there instead of what actually IS there. ch, i, o and ng are only four of thirty-seven different sounds present in Mandarin Chinese. And some languages that don’t even have those sounds in them are still mocked in the same way.

    Or they say, `I’m just making fun of an accent, just like I mock German and Italian accents!’ No, you’re mocking the NATIVE LANGUAGE of those people. As in, `Hahahah, listen to their language! It sounds so silly, they must be real idiots!’

    It’s not about mocking imperfect English because, even if you were born in an English-speaking country, speak perfect English and are IN THE MIDDLE of saying something in English, you WILL hear ching chong, or mixed up r’s and l’s spouted in your face if you are of East/South East Asian descent. It’s about mocking your RACE as if it’s inferior, not your actual language skills.

    Oh, and when I was about to move to East Asia, ching chong, mixed up r’s and l’s and jokes about bloody dog meat were all I heard for a month after which a whole room of white people would turn and stare at me. What the hell do you want? Want me to laugh along and say, `Hahah! Yeah, those stupid, backwards savages! I’m so glad I had my white mum to wash away half that inferior Chinese blood from my dad.’?

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  37. @Jefe was Paula Dean basically stoned? I’d say so. For something she admitted to in ’82. Now has she used it since then… absolutely. But I’ll bet most people have used it since then. Even the people that pulled her book from the shelf. That then becomes very hypocritical. Also there are words on there like “Oriental”? Really? There is a thing called being overly sensitive. There is also pushing the issue of division and hating on whites for silly reasons. Pointing that out isn’t the same and saying “Get over it” to actual infractions.

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  38. @Dave
    There may be a slight difference between using historically abusive racial slurs like the n-word (and some others, such as the J-word or C-word that come close). Those words were used by whites over a very long historical period to incite hate and violence. I really don’t think that you can accuse Abagond of inciting racial hate and violence by suggesting that the use of those words may make people feel uncomfortable — it is like turning it back on “them”. If Paula Deen was crucified as you suggest, it was not because of anything that Abagond did by making up this list.

    And there are other words that were not used by whites to directly incite hate or violence per se, but can still make people’s skin crawl. Those would be words like “minority” and “oriental”. They were used to dis-empower people, label them as a “despised other”, or re-emphasize how society puts white people on top. “Oriental” was last used in the 1980 census (when it was already out of favor) and has not been used on govt forms since.

    If you cannot understand why people may be offended or find others arrogant if they use words like “Oriental”, then it might be better to try to understand why people have a problem with certain words, not brand them as hate mongerers or race baiters. That is NOT what they are doing.

    Are you, perhaps, being oversensitive?

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  39. @ Iris

    Wow. I’m really sorry about what you went through. I know how it feels. I was followed on the street once by a group of white men and they kept saying “Ching Chong” and other slurred faux Chinese. Another time, I walked by a group of white men and one of them started saying that crap while his friends laughed. What scared me most was not the fact they were making fun of my race, but the hatred and contempt in their tone. I also felt that my life was in danger when I was being followed. If I ran, would they have chased me? Would they have beaten me? Would they have tried to kill me? All these things pass through your mind while it happens and the psychological stress is so great that you lose sleep over it.

    I read in psychological studies that people of color live shorter than white people due to diseases linked to stress, like heart disease. This stress is caused in large part by white racial aggression. One of my family members told me about a close Japanese-American friend who was abused by white people his whole life and she was convinced that it was racism that caused him to get cancer because of the stress. It is ironic how many white people are Asiaphiles (Wapanese) because last time I checked, most whites treat “Asian” as a dirty word. Same for blacks. We have Wiggers, but it’s not like white people care about black lives.

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  40. Well then Jefe just say that .. “These words make my skin crawl” not .. “White people probably shouldn’t use these words.” Look I’m not saying it’s Abagond alone that was the reason for anyone to be crucified. He is a very small piece of a large puzzle accusing whites of being the most insensitive race when in comes to some of these matter. My real point that this is being pushed by the media as well. Now that always puzzled me being that the media is largely run by rich white people. That was a puzzle I couldn’t figure out. Now I believe I did. Rich whites don’t give a damn about poor whites who take the brunt of racial battles in america.

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  41. on Wed 11 Sep 2013 at 05:42:54 Riverside_Rob

    on Wed 11 Sep 2013 at 02:27:38 lifelearner
    @ Abagond

    You know ‘white folk’ gonna say whatever they d@mn well please because remember they’re the true Americans and anyone else are just foreigners/leaches on their white resources. If anything this will just give them more ammunition to keep on keeping on with their white mind set. *End of sarcasm ;-) *

    Life learner – the point I think you’ve missed is that we all (you and I and everbody) ccan say whatever we like. Not just whites, but everyone here has the freedom to say whatever they want, whenever they want.

    If you act like “true Americans” whatever that is, you are true Americans, so go ahead and exercise your freedom.

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  42. In response to Dave’s assertions:

    There is a thing called being overly sensitive.

    “These words make my skin crawl” not .. “White people probably shouldn’t use these words.”

    accusing whites of being the most insensitive

    Let me tell you a story. When I was 9 years old, my family finally saved up enough money to put down on a house in a modest suburb. This was after the FHA prohibited the use of race or national origin in the sale of housing. Before that, my family could not rent an apartment together. We were refused housing 100% of the time. The *only* way we got an apartment was to have my mother rent a place herself, and have her family move in afterwards.

    Now, just a few weeks after we moved into the house in the suburbs, all hell broke loose. First it started with neighbors stealing stuff off the property, then dumping trash in the yard, or decorating it with toilet paper. Then, I would face groups of larger older boys chasing me down and beating me up while yelling out “Let’s get the . It got to the point that I had to devise ways of going outside and avoid getting beat up. But one day, they planted a few large Japanese military flags in the yard, with large signs saying “J*P, go home” “Get out!” “We don’t want your kind in our neighborhood”, together with rocks thrown at the windows, breaking the windows and fires started in our yard. It was like a scene out of a movie, only it wasn’t. And besides that, no one in my family even has any Japanese background. If you cannot get the picture, then replace the J-word with the N-word and you can see how violent and hateful it was.

    It never stopped there. Countless war veterans have said stuff like “I fought for my country so that your kind / would not come here!” , followed by many other sentences with profanity and hate language. and, by the way, I have ancestors in the US dating back to the Revolutionary War!

    I have more stories, but I hope you got the point.

    Now, am I being overly sensitive if I kindly remind you NOT to use a word around me. It is beyond making my skin crawl. It was used repeatedly in actual events that involved hate and violence. Those traumatic events haunt me to this day. I have no problem reminding you that there are certain words that you should not be using with me. It is in no way a ploy to incite racial hate or violence. Or are you still insisting that it is merely a case of being oversensitive?

    I don’t want to dehumanize you, but are you human?

    About “media pushing it”, well, people need to be educated why these words are a problem. They *missed* it in their basic school education so it has to come from somewhere. But, in no circumstance should it be used to incite hate or violence, and, by and large, I really don’t think it is. If it is being used to incite hate or violence, I will condemn the media also. But I will condemn the media also if they insist that suggesting not to use certain words is inciting hate and violence. That is ridiculous.

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  43. Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
    Take not Hipsters and SWPLs, they are catching on to you.

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  44. on Wed 11 Sep 2013 at 05:51:33 Riverside_Rob

    I spent some time in Shanghai a few years back. I came away with some interesting insights on the culture of at least that city and province. One is that, when in a restaurant, the last course is always watermelon. Second is that they like to be warm, much warmer than a California native. When driving in car, the heat was on and everyone was zipped up in their jackets – to be cold is to invite illness is what I was told, but I sweat my buns off.
    Another one I thought was funny, when overhearing cell phone conversaetions, they have what seems like a conversation space holder phrase (like our “you know” or “uh huh”), and it sounds like nika nika, or nig@ nig@. It really jumps out at you if can’t follow the rest of the conversation. Anyone here know what the phrase means.
    Lastly, everyone I dealt with (I was there for work) had an English name they used when speaking to me or my American colleagues. Some were kind of funny, like Hunk or daffodil, but I was impressed that they had built up an infrastructure to assist communicating with us Americans who can’t fathom the nuances between li, lee, or le. All in all, a very productive trip.

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  45. trying to like this blog…but there’s always some disconnect in the posts–like the picture of Tim Allen in this one. Did he say something offensive recently? I thought I was going to read something I hadn’t heard before.

    And then you can’t reply to other responses.

    ?

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  46. @R_R

    everyone here has the freedom to say whatever they want, whenever they want.

    There is no law about using the N-word, the J-word, or a host of other slurs or “skin-crawling” terminology, but society *might* punish you for it if it falls on the wrong ears, esp if it is linked to a hate crime. No one is saying that you cannot use any of those words, just be aware of their associations so you won’t be surprised if people (or the employers, the justice system) react in a certain way.

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  47. on Wed 11 Sep 2013 at 06:16:08 Riverside_Rob

    Jefe,
    You’re right – there may be consequences to our choice of words or venues in which we’re speaking – I didn’t think I needed to specify that, but you are exactly right.

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  48. I always find it odd, when a white guy i never met before, talks to me and always feels a need to pander to me by trying to say things like, “bro” and “homie” I’m like…who ever says those things anymore? -_-

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  49. @R_R

    I didn’t think I needed to specify that

    maybe to people like Dave, you do. He thinks people are being oversensitive and mongering hate and inciting violence by asking people not to use racial slurs with them.

    Nobody is inciting hatred or violence here. I think it is a case similar to applying stereotypes (or in this case, implying that sensitivity over using racial slurs) to other people to cover up what one is doing oneself:
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/11/25/stereotypes-have-some-truth-to-them/

    My response to him is in moderation, but I think everyone else gets it.

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  50. @ sondis

    “I always find it odd, when a white guy i never met before, talks to me and always feels a need to pander to me by trying to say things like, “bro” and “homie” I’m like…who ever says those things anymore? -_-“

    In an earlier draft I had both “homey” and “black slang”, but it got messy. Some slang becomes outdated among blacks but is still current among whites. Also, sometimes it seems like whites use black slang to be condescending, sometimes to seem cool, sometimes to make you feel “comfortable”. Words like “homey” and “bro” could be all those things at once.

    Like


  51. @ Dave

    Apparently you expect people of colour to keep their mouths shut for the sake of peace while white people should be allowed to say whatever they damn well please and never get called on it. How is that fair?

    Like


  52. stoicatheist said:

    trying to like this blog…

    I’ve accepted that this is a blog I can never “like”. It simply makes too uncomfortable reading for me to like it. On the other hand, it, and the commenter contributions, are eye-opening, thought-provoking and informative. To me it is more valuable than likeable.

    I don’t agree with everything I read here. The relentless hostility towards white people is difficult to face, but that is balanced by the fact that what I read here helps me to understand where the hostility and suspicion comes from, and to accept that there are good reasons for it.

    Like


  53. Tim Allen says that white comedians should be allowed to use the N-word to help take the sting out of it:

    http://thegrio.com/2013/07/29/tim-allens-n-word-explanation-is-so-wrong-its-funny/

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu9dtV0uJdM)

    Like


  54. Great points about mocking food – it does seem to come from the same place as mocking language (ching chong, etc).

    I think most whites are made uncomfortable by people who are different – apparently they have no healthy way to process it. On top of that, many have a fragile white ego that requires them to assert superiority to feel good about themselves. So even innocent or imagined differences, like watermelon and dog meat, will serve that purpose.

    Like


  55. my one friend calls me homie but that’s so 1983

    Like


  56. […] via @JulianAbagond "Here are some things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on. Maybe it is just me. Commenters can offer their own opinions and examples. Those with links have pos…  […]

    Like


  57. @Agagond. I never said that. I said I think its going too far. Some of your words are used everyday by EVeryone. Not just whites. I think you may be nitpicking . Pointing only them “American Whites”out for using words that make your skin crawl. That proves that it’s not just the words with you it’s who uses them. Now it’s not just one word we can’t say but 100… where will it end? It will be very polarizing in my opinion.

    Like


  58. By the way @Abagond. I don’t think there is any words that I can say that anyone else can’t. I don’t see how I’m the one being unfair on this particular subject.

    Like


  59. @Jefe. Your story is terrible and I am human and do feel for you. We need to stop all racial hatred .. no matter who is the perp or the victim. In your case it sounds like you are of Asian descent and whites were calling you the shortened version of Japanese. The way that was used I agree is and was terrible. Especially during the war and when Japan was kicking our butt economically in the 80s. People of all races can be terrible. That was also pushed by the media as well. I’m sure you remember the bugs bunny cartoons that were still played when I was growing up in the 80s that was meant to be war propaganda. As they were probably made in 1942. Asian facial traits were made front of. We are all a product of a crazy system here. By the way, I have no problem with J*p being on the list. I agree with that. But it’s not JUst whites who can’t say it. No one should.

    Like


  60. Abagond,

    “Black people use the n-word. Why can’t I” – A sign of white entitlement.

    “Misquoting Martin Luther King” – Using the one line about living in a nation where (people) will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character” to deflect any and all accusations of racism.

    “Can I touch your hair?” -What are we, animals in some petting zoo?

    “Not all whites” – An attempt to make you sound like you’re racist, not to mention a hint of some guilt.

    “Blacks sold slaves too!” – The Arab Trader argument, a complete lack of moral reasoning.

    Like


  61. *Made fun of. Sorry

    Like


  62. Also when it comes to hate words… That ARe offensive… I agree don’t say them. But you shouldn’t lose your whole life if you do. I’m sure Dean could have used any other word describing any other ethnicity(Ch*nk, Sp*c,J*p,Guido,Wild Indian, Dot head, Sand N*gger, Muslim extremist… and she would have been fine. Talk about unfairness.

    Like


  63. I pretty sure that these “sayings” are only offensive when said by a white MAN; white women who use the same “sayings” tend to get a pass.

    Like


  64. I don’t see a problem with white people referring to themselves as Caucasian. Why would a black person care about that? It’s like when white people complain about black people calling themselves African American.

    I would add “urban” as a euphemism for black people. All black people aren’t urban. Plus, we don’t need euphemisms for black.

    Like


  65. @Dave
    If Abagond retitled it “Stuff Americans Probably should not say” would that make you feel better?

    Or there any words that you think non-whites should not say in front of, or to whites that they might find offensive, arrogant, or makes their skin crawl (besides the R-word)?

    Like


  66. @Dave,
    I think you missed the point that words were used in connection with actual violence inflicted. It is one reason that they are so bad.

    You think Abagond’s list goes too far?. But you know that those are not all the “bad” words.

    Like


  67. Stuff white people probably shouldn’t say:

    Reverse Racism –

    Playing the “race” card –

    Blacks are racists toward whites –

    Quotas – in terms of Affirmative Action (which benefits more whites than blacks via white women)

    “Well, it looked like a gun ..”

    “Blacks are more violent than ….”

    Like


  68. abagond

    @ sondis

    “In an earlier draft I had both “homey” and “black slang”, but it got messy. Some slang becomes outdated among blacks but is still current among whites. Also, sometimes it seems like whites use black slang to be condescending, sometimes to seem cool, sometimes to make you feel “comfortable”. Words like “homey” and “bro” could be all those things at once”

    In addition to those things, i also felt the reason for white people, using these slang terms, towards blacks was simply because, their lack of exposure to black people have left them, out of touch with current black culture.

    Therefore, their view of black culture is stuck in the 1980’s

    Like


  69. when they say ur anti white or attacking whites when ppl talk about racism, slavery, them not being allowed to use the n word, etc, it really shows how guilty they feel. The tim allen thing wow I hadn’t heard about it before, but wtf was he talking about. oh yes we can take the sting out of the word if everybody uses it smh. The thing he said about if ppl know it bothers u they will say it around u because they know it makes u mad, now that is some truth as I’ve seen news stories about whites saying the word to get a black person to react. Michael eric dyson was on point with his argument especially when he quoted chris rock saying whites have a lot of power but feel like some of their power is taken away when they can’t use the word in public., chris rock is awesome. Or when they say I don’t see race I see a human being, and expect everybody else to do the same, yeah well we didn’t invent race. I find it interesting that when they can use things its all good, but when they see others start using it or benefitting from the same thing they did ,then they get upset and are like oh no we gotta shut it down

    Like


  70. another thing they shouldn’t say stop and frisk is a good thing its not racial profiling, and they shouldn’t say gay struggle is the same as blacks. They shouldn’t say omg black history month is racist why is there no white history month.

    Like


  71. or when they say you should be happy we enslaved u or you’d be in a mud hut in Africa starving somewhere

    Like


  72. ah dude, i was working at this concrete facade stone construction plant in orwigsburg pa last year hard core work mask on steel toes pulling concrete all day and i got picked for the heavy jobs too so the puerto rican bulls we rode up with from reading all use the n word liberally like to a point a black person wouldnt even but acccurately? and you know i was amped one time and it was some bullshiting going on i said get back to work with the ‘a’ at the end oh wow this one black guy (much bigger than me! and been working there a while too) just looked at me like are you serious that is when i really started thinking about it i am just a with the ‘a’ at the end around here ive been called negro white with the ‘er’ at the end all manner of that it is you know part of my cultural compentence initiative to show decorum im not really considered white by anyone outside this blog its funny when their not black+ you no on some real ish somethimes i have my little patter at work making nice politically correct jokes and entertaining the end client and so forth i might code switch, idk man dave where he been? and sondis, please dude, i dont think its pandering to say bro i mean i cringe a white guy called me brother the other day i wanted to hide behind something it was at work, i get it man but dude so date some white chick man idk let a person be happy if they are in to irrs.

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  73. i do all kinds a ish i shouldnt say it to everyone at least ya heard it from me

    Like


  74. someimes is sounds like ‘black people’ talkin to even white people from lousiana or alabama like that like on the phone it is some cadence and some expressions

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  75. i think so it might make sense

    Like


  76. modded comment reposted on my fb not hotlinking here as to not circumvent the moderation policy!

    Like


  77. “or when they say you should be happy we enslaved u or you’d be in a mud hut in Africa starving somewhere”

    Ms. Too Good:
    A mud hut would be the BEST possible outcome. If Africa’s history of the last 100 years is anything to go by, I’d say it’s more likely that “gang raped and then chopped to pieces with a machete” is more likely. Of course, you could argue that that is the fault of Europeans…but couldn’t you argue that EVERY bit of African dysfunction is somehow to be blamed on Whites? Many try.

    Like


  78. dave:

    The white people will get angry because we live in a free society.. and the non whites will have more things to get mad at whites for, and justify their hatred for them.

    This is a huge, sweeping statement to make which and seems to suggest that WP should be able to say what the he11 they want without recourse. Surely you dont mean this? Would it be ok for people with disabilities to be called names that they are uncomfortable with, just because people ‘white people will get angry because we are ‘supposed’ to live in a free society or worse still, because these WP you refer to cannot be ar$ed to learn the correct way to phrase things.

    There are words that are outdated, some that when they are used, scream sterotypical and others which are just downright antagonistic and offensive. The problem is, just by pointing out to people how and why these words are offensive doesnt stop people thinking negative things (if this is their mindset).

    I worked at a place where a colleague said that they had been invited to go and see either Roy ‘Chubby’ Brown or Bernard Manning (can’t recall which) but that they had refused and said comedians of this type should be banned. My response was, that what should be looked at is why people STILL find offensive, narrow, inciteful, hateful things like this, in the name of having a laugh.

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  79. *to learn the correct way to phrase things*

    Should read ‘to learn the correct or better way to phrase things’ – without causing distress/offense.

    Like


  80. on Wed 11 Sep 2013 at 20:06:13 vanishing point.

    A lot of young high school students use the rap form of the n word, like they are with a cool friend I guess. It is very disturbing, I see it a lot on social media sites. No one seems to care what their children post on these sites, it’s unbelievable to me.

    Like


  81. A mud hut would be the BEST possible outcome. If Africa’s history of the last 100 years is anything to go by, I’d say it’s more likely that “gang raped and then chopped to pieces with a machete” is more likely.

    Actually, possessing more than your own weight in gold is the best possible outcome, if Africa’s last 1000 years of history are anything to go by, but you don’t know about all that.

    Like


  82. Ok Jefe.. point taken. Maybe I did try to read between the lines a little. God bless you bro. I saw a show of solidarity in America today that made me proud. I think we should all focus on that today.

    Like


  83. @dave

    Check out this article I think it is very true. (http://www.infowars.com/the-establishment-is-successfully-starting-a-race-war/) I think this is a divide and conquer tool.

    Look, we have to face reality, and the reality is that we are not united. We don’t live in the same neighborhoods, we don’t go to the same schools, we don’t go to the same churches, and seeing as even MLK’s SCLC only had a few token White leaders, and Northern Cities segregated themselves without Jim Crow Laws, I don’t think we even want to be united. We, Black folks, do want to be treated with respect, we do want to sleep in our cars without being suspected of attempted robbery. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHdbW36XjE)

    To put it metaphorically: We want to eat at the same restaurant, order the same delicious meal, and enjoy the same excellent service. We want to go, do, and be whatever we please (so long as no one’s getting hurt), but we don’t necessarily want to eat at the same table. Some of us do sometimes, but not all of us all the time.

    However that isn’t what America is for us. To continue the metaphor: the food is cold, the drinks are warm, the table is dirty, and there’s a fly in my soup that no one wants to care of. Security “randomly” searches at the door, we can’t fiddle with our cellphone because someone might think we’re armed and dangerous, and if a young, White, party of 12 comes in, we’re asked to pick up our plates and move to the smoking section.

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  84. @Dave

    Your people have been oppressing Blacks and other minorities for centuries since you have been on top and now you want to excuse all of these things. I know this post offends you because you are a White person and like most White people in AmeriKKKlan, you perceive yourself to be a ”good White person”.

    I am sorry if this post offends your false sense of self and ego. But this is not all about you at all. Me and other Black commenters here come on here to comment and discuss the effects White supremacy has had on us and on Blacks on whole.

    This blog wasn’t written for White people. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/06/i-do-not-write-this-blog-for-white-people/ Read this link.

    @Abagond

    Honestly I think you should ban all White people from commenting on this blog. This is your personal blog where you can write about anything that concerns you and Black people in general. This blog doesn’t concern them at all yet they always troll and comment on here. Why is that?

    How come White people always come to Black blogs and comment when they know they have no business on here?

    I hope you read and listen to this. I am sick of White people coming on our blogs and commenting. I find it rude and disrespectful when they come on Black blogs and comment because they are distracting the conversations and discussions. And often times these White commenters are so racist it is not funny. I just want White people to leave us the hell alone!

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  85. @Dave

    Another thing, anti racism is not about hating White people. It is about Black people speaking out and challenging the system of White supremacist system that was put in place by your people centuries ago. And also speaking out against the way many of your people treat my people.

    I don’t hate White people but I am sick of the subtle and blatant disrespect many White people show to me on a daily basis and many other Black people. This doesn’t apply to all White people at all but many of them.

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  86. @Adeen with all due respect , you know nothing of my people and family. By the way Adeen this is a wordpress blog. You can’t ban someone because of their color. I guess whites should start “whites only” again then. If Abagond would start his own website he still couldn’t. It is against the civil rights act.

    Like


  87. @Adeen getting mad at all whites, because of some aholes is called profiling. Just as bad when it is done against whites.

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  88. If you want to point fingers, you should be prepared for a debate.

    Like


  89. @ dave

    One black girl suggests that white participation on this blog is unnecessary and you react by saying that whites should reinstate “whites only”? Overreaction much?

    Like


  90. @Dave

    You don’t get it at all. You and other White people don’t have any reason to come on here and other Black blogs. None of these issues concern you. You will never understand where I am coming from. You will never know how it is like to be a Black person in a White dominated country.

    I don’t hate Whites at all. I don’t hate you at all. However you will never know how it is like to be racially stereotyped and disrespected because your melanin is different. I don’t see why you are being so emotional and sad that I pointed out the racism many of your people practice. It is the truth.

    @Kiwi

    Exactly, he is overreacting. He is sad because this post crushed his false sense of self and ego.

    Like


  91. ”I guess whites should start “whites only” again then.”

    Wow that comment baffled me. It just showed me your true nature. Seriously your comment has confirmed one of the reasons why White people should not comment on Black blogs. They can’t understand what Black people go through and spin it around and make it all about them.

    Like


  92. And I am not profiling at all. The oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor. So you think it is okay for White people to disrespect Black people? I don’t. I wish racism could go away but it is only getting worse.

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  93. @dave

    @Adeen getting mad at all whites, because of some aholes is called profiling. Just as bad when it is done against whites.

    I agree that you generally go too far so much of the time, eg, suggesting that making this list is inciting a race war, or overreacting when a young woman would like a non-whites only forum and then you suggest that whites should instill “whites only” again. Sometimes you just go off the deep end.

    But, I must admit, you are right to some extent, Adeen is doing a bit of what you are suggesting, ie, racial profiling. It is not necessarily good, but certainly not “just as bad when it is done against whites”. The reason why it is not as bad is because US society is still a “white” society (even in most places where whites are now a minority), so it is not so much a matter of profiling individuals, but profiling society.

    Adeen goes out a bit too far. Then you go out and jump off the deep end.

    I think I get what is in your head sometimes when you read “Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say” — you think it is talking about you individually and is inciting racial divisions when it is doing nothing of the sort. That is why I wondered if you might think differently if it were reworded as “Stuff American People Probably Shouldn’t Say”. Then you suddenly wouldn’t think it is talking about you and not fueling a race war, even if the content of the article has not changed.

    The thing is, switching the title does change the point of the article a bit. Although no Americans should be using these words, it is different when whites use them because
    – the words are focused on how whites see non-whites, in particular, they are used to dehumanize them or at least cast them as “despised other”.
    – more whites are clueless why these words should be avoided; even you thought the list was overboard (and believe me, “minority” and “Oriental” should be avoided)
    – it has different meaning when whites use them, as the words are associated with a very ugly, or at least demeaning past.

    So maybe you could retitle the article “Stuff American People Probably Shouldn’t Say” and at the same time understand why it is so much much worse when whites say them and why it is especially important for white people to know the content of the list.
    .

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  94. @Adeen. I want to keep this civil with you. You are alot younger than me. When someone says “You as a white person probably shouldn’t use these words.” , and many of them are everyday words, I have a right to say something about it. Even if they were the hateful words, I would have a right. You know why?.. because that is the right that we all have.. no matter what color.

    Adeen we all are losing rights in this country as we speak. all of us! When I lose a right to speak, you better be damn sure that you will as well. There has been an onslaught on the Constitution.

    I know when it started, because I was there. I cleaned up the smoke damage at the Pentagon, That is what I do for a living.. I clean. The silver spoon you think I have is non existent. .. It was 12 years ago today 9/11. As soon as that happened the patriot act was signed and we lost our 4th amendment. That is the right to not be illegally searched. Now if I go in an airport (I’ve only been on a plane twice my whole life and the first time was 3 years ago) I have to watch my 6 year old son get felt up because apparently “Osama Bin Laden” is in his underwear. Next all of the rest of our god given rights spelled out in “The bill of rights” has been knocked over like dominoes. Now racial strife and division is making you tell me I don’t have the right to speak on a blog, when I have been respectful on this argument. I can be hard headed, but I’m not mean. You seem to be taking whatever meanness from others and turning it on me.

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  95. @D

    if a young, White, party of 12 comes in, we’re asked to pick up our plates and move to the smoking section.

    OMG, I haven’t been to the USA for a while. Is this stuff still going on? That is so 1980s.

    In 50s-60s, restaurants (in the North) would have said that all the tables are reserved. They would have to wait, perhaps hours for a table that would not become available, when white parties are seated right away. In the South, they simply would say they don’t serve colored folk (or the colored section is full). :P

    Like


  96. Remember my words and don’t reject them just because you think I’m “white” or that is what box I’ve been put in or identify with. Remember I told you that sooner or later you will become the bad guy? I’m not just saying this because you and I are arguing. I’ve read many of your posts and some of them are out of anger and hatred. Now maybe some of that is how where you live has shaped your opinion, but I guarantee you some of it is self inflicted. By what you read and the blogs you choose to go on. You told me yourself you go to hate blogs and argue with people. I don’t believe this is a hate blog. This is not on the level of a “Stormfront” or a “Skinhead blog” Most people on here are very well educated and seem to be loving caring people.

    That is what baffles me sometimes. You need to see the other side of an argument from time to time. Otherwise you will be in what’s called an echo chamber of built up hate.

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  97. Comment in moderation? please explain.

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  98. Because I just said the people on here were mostly loving caring people soooo…..?

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  99. Adeen go ahead and have a blacks only blog if you want. But just remember, that will naturally eventually create “Whites only” and other things. I’m not saying that is good I’m saying that naturally happens. Remember when there were Whites only water fountains, there were also coloured only.. When you have a top there will be a bottom, or another side of a coin. I thought we were passed this. I’m not the problem. I’m not for it .. You are. You showed your nature… not me.

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  100. @Dave

    Comment in moderation? please explain.

    Maybe you got your own personal list of moderated words. :P
    Looks like we should change the title to “Stuff Dave Probably Shouldn’t Say”. :P :P :P

    I still think you go off the deep end. I joined all-men self help group meetings before. No women were allowed because the issue involved was a very private male thing. No one was advocating that means we should have Men only water fountains or lunch counters or sections of the bus.
    How do you extrapolate from a Black only or non-white only blog to society-wide segregation? If a blog is devoted to, say, problems encountered by black youth in respect of white society, then, just like a social / community resource centre which provides assistance to blacks who have been victimized violently by whites, some of those meetings might need to exclude whites. Would you want convicted sex offenders (who might be unrelated re: what they have done to the actual victims serviced) to attend meetings at a rape victim counselling centre? (Come to think of it, if they are there to help the victim, I guess it is possible, but not if they are there to rub salt in their wounds.)

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  101. Adeen

    You and other White people don’t have any reason to come on here and other Black blogs.

    If you don’t want whites coming here then maybe you should stop talking about them.

    Like


  102. @ Da Jokah

    A fair point. Instead, it is better to focus on what they do, rather than talk about the people themselves, hence the title of this post being about something they say/do.

    Like


  103. @abagond thanks buddy ima go do a little bid

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  104. @ v8driver

    Good luck.

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  105. @ Dave

    1. Most people should not say most of these things. But in practice, it is white people who mostly say them. And, as Jefe points out, it is worse coming from them because of their past and present in dehumanizing others. There is a reason, for example, the N-word has the sting it does, why it cannot simply be laughed off or overlooked. The world did not start yesterday morning.

    2. The Constitution: Americans have the RIGHT to say each and every one of them, as many times as they want. Even on this blog, I let people say all of them except for the outright slurs. That does NOT mean, though, that it is WISE or what a person with any sense would do. Also: if white people have the right to say them, I have every right to say what I think of them saying such things. It goes both ways. White people do not exist in a vacuum, they are not above criticism.

    3. This post represents MY OPINION. I made that clear when I said in the first paragraph, “Maybe it is just me. ” You should weigh what I say against what commenters say. Sometimes it is just me. But If you say one of these things and get noise for it, you should think back to this post.

    4. There is a big difference between some of them. “Caucasian” is merely odd, while the N-word is way worse. But most of them centre whiteness and strengthen white racist thinking. Not necessarily skinhead racist thinking, but a mindset that puts whites above everyone else, that dehumanizes others.

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  106. @ solesearch

    “I don’t see a problem with white people referring to themselves as Caucasian. Why would a black person care about that? It’s like when white people complain about black people calling themselves African American.”

    I do not find it offensive, merely odd. But you are right: whites, like anyone else, should be allowed to call themselves whatever they want.

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  107. @ Dave

    Not sure why your comment got moderated. I moderate innocent-seeming words to catch trolls. It could have been one of those.

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  108. ^maybe it was the word “sk*nh*d”.

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  109. @ Dave

    If I wanted to ban all white(washed) commenters I could. The thinking behind it would be much like Jefe’s rape victim counselling centre.

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  110. @ Dave

    Jefe is right, it was “skinhead” that got your comment moderated.

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  111. Oh.. ok. maybe we change that to “blockhead” cause that is what they are.

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  112. @Jefe. I’ve said this over and over and I guess I’ll have to do it again. If you had an all white blog with educated sensible people on it. Not like a hate blog but more sensible.. and they spent much time criticizing black people.. and the guy tried to make it white only it wouldn’t fly either. It would lead to all black blogs doing the same thing.. (black history month) , (bet), (soul train awards), (United negro college fund), this has happened before. I don’t know why what i’m saying seems so foreign to you. (By the way Abagond had never called for this.. some other commenters have) You should be rejecting this idea Jefe.. not arguing for it.

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  113. @Jefe “Men only”.. Listen to what you are saying. Obviously Men and Women are segregated. That is a given. In sports, the bathroom, some schools, etc. .. Come on dude!

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  114. By the way a “men only” blog, with criticisms of women on it, most certainly would not fly. Go ahead and try it Jefe. In fact.. do a “Willy Pete” impression and make it all about criticising black women ,when all you do is go with white women, and don’t know what you are talking about, because you barely know them.(I’m speaking hypothetically.. I know nothing of your dating habits, just giving an extreme example) Then make that “Black men only” lol. I’m sure black women would love that, if they had to sit there and take it and say nothing. Get it now?

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  115. What if everybody in the United States decided to call themselves African-American, since everyone’s family came from Africa originally? That would really be the most accurate designation.

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  116. Oh dave, dave, dave,
    Sometimes I can’t figure out who you could possibly read and interpret what you do. I am sure most of the readers here do not read and interpret as you do. But then I remembered Abagond’s prior post on dichotomous thinking and I think that might be what is happening. But I am afraid that, like that post suggested, some readers who engage in Dichotomous thinking still cannot understand after it is explained to them. I’ll make a stab at it, but I am afraid that the dichotomous thinking syndrome cannot be broken.

    Where to start . . . .

    #1 I NEVER NEVER advocated or argued for a blacks only blog. Have no idea where that notion came from. Indeed, if it were a blacks only blog, I wouldn’t be here either. I don’t think this blog should be a black only blog, and I am sure that Abagond does not either. That is why a mixed bag of people come here and Abagond does not ban them (well, not too many of them – see #5 below).

    #2 I did say I could possibly envision a few scenarios where a black only blog might be preferable for some people. For example, if there is a blog discussing the psychological and physiological problems of black teens who have been victims of white violence, I could see why they might seek an environment to discuss their issues without white people present. Or maybe there are young blacks who are the only black (or one of a very small handful) at their school, and want to discuss with like-minded people about how to handle being the only black in their neighborhood or school with no support system nearby. They might seek a non-white online support system. Maybe a couple other scenarios might want to exclude whites.
    I don’t know if that is the reason Adeen wants a blacks only blog group. But if she needs one, I wouldn’t stop her from seeking one. Abagond would not do that for her. I think she would be going to far if she thinks whites or non-blacks be banned from THIS blog.

    #3 My suggestion that you went and jumped off the deep end had nothing to do with advocating a black only blog. It was how you extrapolated that a black (or non-white) only blog would cause “whites only” to resurface in other aspects of society and lead to re-establishment of segregation (a la Jim Crow). Really now!

    #4 The men only thing was just being used as an illustration, but you took it really into a very different direction. I did participate in a discussion group (and attended a couple meetings) that was for men only and they did not invite women. It had NOTHING to do with bashing women, but something to do with specifically male issues where females would not really have something to contribute and could possibly be psychologically distressing for some of the men. Females might have the same kind of group. For example, females who have had a mastectomy may want to discuss with other women about certain problems that only females face and would not like to discuss it in front of men. It is not because they are bashing men.
    This has nothing to do with men or women bashing, or segregation of men and women in places like washrooms. Where did you extrapolate that?

    #5 Abagond alluded that a parallel scenario here might a bit akin to a rape victim centre (or a centre that offers self-help for victims of sexual abuse). Now, a recovering sex offender might have value in such a group – he could share a bit about how he became a sex offender and how he would like to recover, and he would like to understand how the victims feel. Maybe an environment which allows victims and offenders to communicate could be therapeutic for both. But NOT if the offenders come only to rub salt into the wounds of the victim. Such a person would be banned from returning to the centre.

    Somehow I think all I wrote just now is useless – the readers who understood my prior posts do not need these explanations and you probably will re-interpret into something else altogether. So be it.

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  117. on Thu 12 Sep 2013 at 16:59:45 grin and bear it

    if white people have the right to say them, I have every right to say what I think of them saying such things. It goes both ways. White people do not exist in a vacuum, they are not above criticism.

    ^^^This. All day, every day.

    This is the point Dave and others like him seem to miss. No one is preventing him from saying or doing whatever he wants, but he should understand that there are CONSEQUENCES to him doing so. In the past, white people could do whatever they wanted with a reasonable expectation that no one would challenge them or there would be no repercussions for their actions. Everyone else in the world seems to understand that if they say and do certain things, they will be scrutinized for it; white folks still believe they’re beyond reproach.

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  118. @ Jefe: I understood you.

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  119. Ok Jefe.. me and you were in a civil discussion on the matter. Adeen came in mad about something else (at least that is what I thought) and I was the feather that made her snap a little. She interjected in our discussion that became a discussion between her and I, you then interjected and gave an example of how a “blank only” site or blog could be understandable. I’m personally not for that, and I gave clear examples why. .. I don’t see how I went off the deep end as I have remained pretty calm through this.

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  120. @grin and bear it.. so you think there should be consequences of every word on this list? (Caucasian, Oriental, No Problemo, Inner city, and I have a different “cultural background” from you are just a few that I think is really nitpicking). answer that so I can clearly respond.

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  121. First of all “No problemo” is dated, but when it is used it is a smooth, laid back, changeup way of saying “No problem”. If you are going to give white people consequences and repercussions for that , then you are just a straight up hater.

    I could go on with some of these words but I’ll leave it at that. My concern is when the bag of worms that the N word has turned into. Younger black people think they can now police white people on everything they say.

    How bout this @grin.. since I’m Italian descent. you aren’t allowed to say “Pizza” no more. … and there will be dire consequences if you do! (being sarcastic of course)

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  122. @also at Jefe.. Dude I AM NO WHERE NEAR AKIN to a sex offender with my opinions on racial matters. That is a low blow.

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  123. @Jefe again. wow I even said my example was extreme (on the black men only willy pete thing) why further point out that it was indeed extreme.

    I felt I needed an extreme point that when one group points a finger then doesn’t want to hear the others point of view that is extremely unfair…hence the extreme example.

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  124. I’ve only ever thought of this blog as “abagond”, as I’ve never read any kind of declaration from HIM, the actual OWNER, that his blog is “black” or “black-identified” or for Blacks only.. It is only certain commenters who are claiming what this blog is and is not.

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  125. I feel everyone should comment so we can learn from everyone.

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  126. on Thu 12 Sep 2013 at 21:58:17 grin and bear it

    Come on, Dave. You’re a smart man. Why are you being so obtuse? Abagond laid out reasons why these terms are problematic when white folks use them in regards to people of color. Namely they smack of a paternalism that reinforces a racial hierarchy where White is right. But not just right. It’s “normal.” Sometimes even “only.” Where do you think that leaves the rest of the world?

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  127. on Thu 12 Sep 2013 at 22:00:28 grin and bear it

    And why do you think they (the rest of the world) wouldn’t challenge that assertion?

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  128. @Dave

    Honestly I will be civil with you but I haven’t been mean to anyone on here. You will never understand what people of color go through however I do change my mind on not letting Whites come on here to comment. This blog is for people who are interested in posting their thoughts and feelings about race and you seem to be one of these people. I may not agree with you on everything you say but you have a right to comment as much as every Black blogger on here.

    @Jefe

    Yes you get my point. Many of the issues on here are related to Black people though.

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  129. @Dave

    I AM NO WHERE NEAR AKIN to a sex offender with my opinions on racial matters. That is a low blow.

    How did you interpret that? Where was I saying anything about you?

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  130. @Dave

    @grin and bear it.. so you think there should be consequences of every word on this list?

    It doesn’t matter what people think. There are already some consequences, to a certain degree, of using any of the words on that list (and a host of others) esp. in specific contexts. Each and all of us are free to use any of those words, but in certain contexts, there may be consequences.

    That is not a hateful statement. That is true with every behavior. For example, if you decide to sleep in 5 mins. later in the morning, you are free to do so, but there could be consequences. As you suggested, there could even be consequences in using the word Pizza (maybe you can think of a hypothetical scenario where it would be).

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  131. @Jefe.. Sure like if you looked at me and said. “Man I’ll bet he makes a good pizza” (I do look like an off the boat Southern Italian) That may annoy me a little. I wouldn’t just say “Pizza” though. I think thats where the list may be misunderstood a little.

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  132. I hate those old Anthropological words “Negroid” and “Mongoloid”. Just ridiculous.

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  133. @Dave
    Hopefully you understand how using certain words, even “Pizza”, in certain contexts could be annoying, odd, arrogant, offensive, or downright hateful but perhaps OK in other contexts.

    There is NO context where the N-word, J-word, C-word and a few other slurs can be used. It is almost impossible to think of one (except when the use of the word is itself the topic).

    There are few contexts where it is appropriate to use “Oriental” or mock language. Perhaps we can think of a few contexts (eg, “Oriental Carpet”, “quoting lines from the Terminator”) where it would not be offensive, but best to avoid them.

    No American or even non-American talking to Americans should be using them, but the words on the list above are words that were used particularly by whites to dehumanize non-whites. That is why it is “stuff white people shouldn’t say” and not “stuff people shouldn’t say”. Even “inner city” is a white euphemism for non-white ghetto. Once gentrified, they stop using that term, maybe switching to “bohemian” then to “new urbanist”.

    Of course, we have freedom of speech, and no one will be arrested for using any of those words per se, even the N-word. But, use of that word will not help you, eg, if you get sued for racial discrimination (for other reasons) or if you use it at work in a demeaning way.

    It is THAT simple. I don’t see how you extrapolate into areas “way out there”.

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  134. @Dave
    You didn’t even respond to me back? I thought you were going to have a debate and be civil with each other. Jefe is the one who understood where I was coming from with what I was saying

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  135. you must go to brooklyn to get a proper slice

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  136. and fold the pizza little paper plate you know is that white american ethnic idk

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  137. Well at Adeen, I’m glad you’ve come to your senses about “Letting” me speak, without coming to your own conclusions like I am the ying and you are the yang of a black/white symbol. What you are going to find, Adeen, if you take your own mind out of the box you choose to be put in, is that there are many grey areas. Telling me I will never understand something you don’t understand yourself yet is getting ahead of yourself. Sometimes it’s good to listen to someone older and wiser and more worldly than you. I know you want to be a writer.. but to be a good writer you have to be a good reader (that is a metaphor)

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  138. Hey @V8..Never had the brooklyn. But there is some good handspun pizza here in the philly area too. I think alot of that came from NY. It migrated here.

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  139. Lorenzo’s on South St. is good.

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  140. There you go Jefe. I clean Oriental Rugs. So i’m not going to change that service off business card anytime soon. I think we are now debating the ridiculous. I think we can both see that each other understands context.

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  141. eat pizza in philly as if i live here

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  142. i gotta get some reading glasses jail is a step up from where i am at

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  143. Been to Imperial Pizza in Delco(Secane PA)? “The BEach!”

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  144. It’s called “the beach” because it has cornmeal on the bottom instead of flour. Great sauce, not too much cheese and a great crust. Hand spun, and it’s only around $7 for a large plain. Good stuff. On South Ave. near the Secane train station(R3).

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  145. uh no i live in sw i dont like the pizza here in philly even old city nope…

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  146. Yeah theres not much around South West Philly that I can think of. Sorry can’t help you there.

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  147. we are here all of us

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  148. You aren’t too far from Upper Darby though.. Five Star is the shite. I wait was that on the list. ;) . There used to be a good one near 69th street called “Mario & Ginos” Brooklyn style. I’m not sure if its still there though.

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  149. You aren’t too far from Upper Darby though.. Five Star is the shi*. I wait was that on the list. ;) . There used to be a good one near 69th street called “Mario & Ginos” Brooklyn style. I’m not sure if its still there though.

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  150. Goto Picas on West Chester Pike in UD. That is great. There is a bar there as well. You gotta love that!

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  151. there is several irish bars i wish to visit up that way

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  152. actually i lie i eat pizza at 69th street and queen of pizza in darby

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  153. @Dave

    I clean Oriental Rugs. So i’m not going to change that service off business card anytime soon. I think we are now debating the ridiculous. I think we can both see that each other understands context.

    It is not ridiculous at all. It seems like there is still a misunderstanding.

    In certain contexts, “Oriental” can be used without being offensive or dehumanizing (eg, Oriental rugs, oriental carpets, possibly oriental furniture, although that is stretching it) but there are other contexts where it is offensive and dehumanizing, esp. when applied to people and anything associated with the people (eg, history, culture, geography, etc.). Please do not call any people “Oriental” and it is better to avoid saying Oriental languages, oriental foods, oriental culture, oriental clothing, etc. If you say, “I think I might put an oriental in my foyer” you had better be talking about a rug. If you talk about the “orientals” working in the claims department, better be prepared to be disciplined at work, or even fired after 2 warnings. Using “oriental” to refer to people and people-associated phenomena is somewhat similar to using “colored / coloured” to refer to people – not only dated, but offensive and arrogant as they were used in very dehumanizing and demeaning ways in the past, primarily by white people. There is nothing wrong with saying something like “your views are colored by your experience and training.”

    Words like Far East, Middle East, Near East are very Eurocentric. Unless you want to sound very Eurocentric, better to avoid them. Same thing with “the New World” and “the Old World” or “the Dark Continent”. You might use sub-Saharan Africa might not mean anything to you at all, but at the same time you can be aware why there is a demeaning element to it, or even something odd. Would it be odd to refer to India and Bangladesh as “sub-Himalayan Asia” or to southern Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay as “sub-Amazonian America?

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  154. Oh yeah like 10 of em. If you go in Cawley’s you would think you were in Dublin. UD has a big Irish population. They are all illegal! lol. Oh wait darnnit .. on the list. lol. “Probably shouldn’t have said that” Oh I get the context now. Since I’m in the white box I can say that one… lol!

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  155. Stop Jefe. Really you are reaching here. I don’t need your lecturing.

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  156. eh you missed my point too dave

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  157. an illegal irish chick sound like trouble to me could be a fun date

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  158. @Jefe. You said you don’t even live here anymore so your finger pointing is from across the ocean. What are you Arsenio? You must have a long finger.

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  159. Oh the Irish girls are the sensible ones. Be prepared to be as charming as James Bond.

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  160. Talk about the new pope, and tell her the queen can kiss you where the sun don’t shine.

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  161. @ dave

    You said you don’t even live here anymore so your finger pointing is from across the ocean.

    I live right here and I would say jefe is pretty much spot on. Are there any other deflections you would like to try out?

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  162. “sub Amazon America”…I mean gees would it be weird ? Ive heard lots of referances to thr Amazon that confuse what country its in…it sure wouldnt be offensive

    “sub Sahara Africa” yawn , Abagond , yawn havent we been over this before?

    didnt we go over that white guy experimenting to be black before?

    Why repeat yourself? Why dont you do a thread on John Coltrane or something like that?

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  163. BR, agree with you, Abagond seems to have been rehashing some old content.

    Re: Sub-Amazonian America, imagine if it were used as a disguised word to mean “European” South America or even “white” South America? It would go from being weird to something with racist or eurocentric overtones.

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  164. @dave you need sensitivity class dude.
    Re: chatting irish chicks i would never say that stuff a im born here and b im british and scotch irish too. I usually nod uh huh uh huh county cork, never been thats about it.

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  165. Jefe , what Im willing to say about SSA , for now is, I want to see if in five years, this phrase becomes internationaly condemmed and proven to be detrimental as a racist term , then I will consider seriously rethinking my opinion, and I will remember these discussions here…

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  166. Did I just read something like “a thread on John Coltrane”?

    (Heart jumps for joy.)

    Yessssssssssssssssssssssssss. (Please.)

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  167. @v8driver

    @dave you need sensitivity class dude.

    He doesn’t like to be lectured. :P

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  168. @Bulanik

    Did I just read something like “a thread on John Coltrane”?

    Maybe you could draft a post for us?

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  169. well my comment got deleted on the “SSA” thread – i was drunk when i posted it and it was stupid so i’m not complaining – but i thought it was a difference or a sort of geographical delineation or let’s say more people from a arabic or semetic or middle eastern lineage as opposed to more darker complected africans

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  170. Why is there criticism against what white people shouldn’t say? Without divulging into some of the hypersensitivity of “words”, why are white people targeted in this thread? If you deem a term racist, then it is racist, it should apply to everyone: “What everybody shouldn’t say” For instance, is it acceptable if a black person uses these terms? But you are going to argue the intent. So, how do you know unless you can mind read?

    This is even before I get into the Orwellian “thought police”.

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  171. B.R.,

    “Jefe , what Im willing to say about SSA , for now is, I want to see if in five years, this phrase becomes internationaly condemmed and proven to be detrimental as a racist term , then I will consider seriously rethinking my opinion, and I will remember these discussions here…”

    What do you mean by internationally condemned? Condemned by who?

    Why can’t you seriously rethink your opinion based on the arguments now? I doubt they will change.

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  172. because the arguments didnt convince me!!

    I brought in various articles about Africans, by Africans, on varieties of things, and they all used SSA

    .the most elaborated position I saw against SSA, that used every argument I saw here and more was from the African Holocaust web site , and it had flaws, and represented the black African Muslim point of view

    However, based on this debate here, Im willing to wait 5 years to see if this phrase actualy takes on any serious international discussion (which doesnt mean Im not using the phrase, it means out of respect for others positions Ive seen here, I will keep my eye on this subject)

    I really dont want to discuss this anymore, if you want to see my opinion, its seriously elaborated on that thread

    but, since we are here, very quickly, Jefe, I absolutly define cultural expresions in Brazil by the South and North..the Amazon is not the defining barrior, its below Sao Paulo…culture is exactly how I was using that term in reguards to Africa…Brazil is a country, but if you look at “gaucho” culture, it plays out in several countries in the south

    Im finished discussung it…everything I have to say is in the thread about ot

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  173. So by international you mean widespread African condemnation?

    If the arguments don’t convince you now, I doubt they will convince you then. It doesn’t seem like you are basing your opinion on the arguments but on what the masses say, the status quo.

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  174. Well, Solesearch, you just go to the thread and read my points , it is hardly status quo thinking…go read what I said , and address my points…if you can…, Im not going to repeat myself over here…bringing in various well written , on variety of subjects relating to SSA black people, about SSA subjects, by SSA black people , is hardly status quo…master African drummers explaining their art using the phrase for emphasis where the concepts came from is hardly status quo….

    Just because some people decide to draw an arbitrary line and deem words racist to satisfy a political agenda , is no reason to just blindly accept intellectual logic…it has to stand up to time and arguments that may have good points against deeming some words or phrases unacceptable

    Ive seen a bunch of political agendas come and go , and the ones that didnt last still caused damage downinto today…Ive seen a bunch of words and phrases put up in the past as politicly correct , only to see them smashed down and deemed wrong and new words put in their place that then are criticised after that…Ive learned to let time pass to see how these things play out before I just rush in and agree with just anything that comes down the political agenda pike

    Most of the words here , that Abagond mentions, I have no problem with, and understand and agree with…but not just everything

    Abagond, I notice, more than a lot of things I see on the internet, you have these lists of words that you keep bringing in you deem as racist…most are obvious and should be scrutinised, but many are questionable

    Im just wondering, if Im not wrong, Ive perceived you aspire to write…how can you bring in such long lists to censer? Arnt you just cutting your legs off as a writer by building an ever more growing list of words and phrases that you deem unacceptable? I would think a writer would not want to have huge lists of words and phrases they wont use. Again, most of the words on this thread I agree with…but not all

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  175. @Dave

    It is okay, Dave. I am not mad at you. You have different opinions based on experience and that you are older than me. I wouldn’t come to conclusions like the Black/White symbol anymore but my mind is still recovering from the verdict last July. That case made me lose faith in race relations every getting better.
    That case really struck a nerve with me as a young, Black woman. I wish racism could go away but I don’t know these days. It seems like it is getting worse.

    This is my question for you:
    And how come MANY White Americans sided with Zimmerman?

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  176. @Gio

    If you deem a term racist, then it is racist, it should apply to everyone: “What everybody shouldn’t say”

    You have a very valid point. In fact, it was addressed to some extent in the comments.

    Perhaps Abagond should add a line at the bottom along the lines of the following:

    “These terms have a racist or Eurocentric past and probably should be avoided by everyone. But the words in this list are the ones that whites generally used to depict or refer to non-whites in a demeaning or dehumanizing way, and it is white people that actually use them more often in this way, so it is much worse when white people do it.”

    Or maybe the title could read “Stuff people shouldn’t say, esp. whites”.

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  177. Woo, I’m late to this one.

    Riverside Rob: you said “when overhearing cell phone conversaetions, they have what seems like a conversation space holder phrase (like our “you know” or “uh huh”), and it sounds like nika nika, or nig@ nig@. It really jumps out at you if can’t follow the rest of the conversation. Anyone here know what the phrase means.”

    Not sure if anyone responded to you on this. That is “nae ge” (a variant of na ge–I seem to remember that Abagond bans foreign scripts, or I’d give you the Chinese), which means “that thing”. It can be used as filler occasionally when you’re mentally searching for the correct noun. Never thought it sounded particularly like the racial epithet, but maybe if I didn’t speak Chinese I would.

    It’s good if everyone can learn to be sensitive in appropriate social settings. Here are a couple of phrases it’s not good for people of color (i.e., non-whites) to say:

    “white privilege” Whites have to earn higher scores on standardized tests to get into good schools (not than East Asians). Not every white person is rich and well connected. This is a tired stereotype. People like Glenn who are eager to prove their self-loathing will be happy to agree with you on this one. Most other whites will get annoyed by this. Would it be OK to say Jewish privilege because they tend to be much more successful than non-Jews?

    “complaining that American society is racist around white people”, unless the white person has indicated that they want to have a general discussion of racial issues. Sure America is racist, just less so than almost any other society out there (but but Arab slave trader.. <–another thing to pi$$ off white people it means nothing can be looked at in a global/situational context), but more picked on than any other. We've heard this before. It gets old. Compare the policies of East Asia has with the U.S. and Europe. Who is more open to allowing foreigners to become citizens–when was the last time you met white or black Japanese, Chinese or Koreans?

    Also, when traveling abroad, please remember that PC verbiage doesn't fly in most parts of the world, because it is a unique breed or Western self-hatred.

    Of course, you guys won't accept these, or anything else I might list for white people's sensitivities, because frankly you don't care. However, the point is you can say things that will make white people angry as well. You should at least try to know what these are, so you can be selective about when you want to bring up certain topics likely to annoy whites.

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  178. Whites have to earn higher scores on standardized tests to get into good schools (not than East Asians)

    Do you even read what you write?

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  179. Who is more open to allowing foreigners to become citizens–when was the last time you met white or black Japanese, Chinese or Koreans?

    Why should POC American citizens care what happens to foreigners visiting other countries? How do Native Americans factor into your narrative?

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  180. Kiwi,

    Yes, I read that. I know for East Asians it’s tougher to get in schools, such is the strange mix of pure merit and racial quotas we have. My point is that compared to the NAMs (who make up a much larger percent of the U.S. population–30+% already I believe), whites often have to work harder to achieve the same results (not for the super rich super well connected white people, but those are not most of us). Anyway, you can argue over that, but bottom line is that talking about “white privilege” is highly offensive for most whites, but you don’t care.

    You’re gonna turn things into a back and forth on little points. Not sure if I’m very motivated today. You can probably guess my responses and I can probably guess yours. America is, admittedly, a more complex example, but if you look at Europe, the traditional white homeland, you can see how accepting it is of “foreigners” becoming citizens compared to other places (e.g., East Asia, which has similar levels of economic development in many areas–and so would be a very attractive target for would be immigrants). All “immigrants” are foreigners at first.

    The “Native American” tribes were fighting each other for land. If you go back far enough, none of them were “natives”. They came over on a land bridge supposedly. They didn’t live in some Dances with Wolves paradise with perfect peaceful lives. Europeans came and were better at fighting (and killing off the NA with their diseases–rather than being killed off by NA diseases). So, you wanna talk several hundred years ago AND, we can’t talk about anywhere else in the world or have any comparison because Arab Slave Trader. So, you win the argument (in your own mind). Congrats.

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  181. If you go back far enough, none of them were “natives”. They came over on a land bridge supposedly.

    Sorry, but that is really ridiculous. If you go back far enough, English were not native to England, the Han were not native to China, Maori were not native to New Zealand, Aboriginal australians were not native to Australia, Austronesian malayan people were not native to the Philippines, etc.

    Any peoples outside of Africa were not native to that area, and even within Africa, some of the Bantu peoples are not native to the areas they inhabit.

    talking about “white privilege” is highly offensive for most whites

    what is the preferred terminology that you think whites would like to use to describe the phenomenon?

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  182. Jefe:

    ” If you go back far enough, English were not native to England, the Han were not native to China, Maori were not native to New Zealand, Aboriginal australians were not native to Australia, Austronesian malayan people were not native to the Philippines, etc. ”

    Yes, it’s all relative. Some history goes back 500 years, some history goes back thousands of years. It’s still in the past now. No use crying about the Norman invasion.

    “what is the preferred terminology that you think whites would like to use to describe the phenomenon?”

    What is the preferred terminology that non-whites would have for discussing the idea that whites are a superior race? It’s simply not a polite conversation topic and not believed by many whites about all whites (remember the majority who are not Jewish, not rich, not politically connected, etc.).

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  183. Anyway, my point is not to sidetrack this thread. Just to note that there are a lot of things you guys might say that would be highly offensive to most white people, but it seems like the sensitivity (e.g., now we can’t say Caucasian without offending you?) you are requesting from whites is a one way street.

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  184. B.R.,

    “Just because some people decide to draw an arbitrary line and deem words racist to satisfy a political agenda , is no reason to just blindly accept intellectual logic…it has to stand up to time and arguments that may have good points against deeming some words or phrases unacceptable

    Ive seen a bunch of political agendas come and go , and the ones that didnt last still caused damage downinto today…Ive seen a bunch of words and phrases put up in the past as politicly correct , only to see them smashed down and deemed wrong and new words put in their place that then are criticised after that…Ive learned to let time pass to see how these things play out before I just rush in and agree with just anything that comes down the political agenda pike”

    What political agenda do you think Abagond or I have for calling the word racist?

    You accept or reject intellectual logic because it is or isn’t logical.

    Can you give examples of these words and phrases that were deemed correct and then wrong?

    No one is asking you to agree with just anything.

    Your argument for the correctness of using SSA is because black Africans use it. Black Americans use the n-word. It is still a racist word.

    Black Americans use the word because white people told them that’s what they were and you don’t disagree with white folks. Same for black Africans.

    You aren’t basing your acceptance on the arguments you are basing it on “the times”.

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  185. biff:

    Yes, it’s all relative. Some history goes back 500 years, some history goes back thousands of years. It’s still in the past now. No use crying about the Norman invasion.

    I think you raise an interesting concern. If people are going to reference “historical grievances” to inform a cultural debate, then it seems necessary to define the limits of this in a way which is impartial and congruent.

    Often, it appears as though the “window of relevance” for such a perspective is limited to whenever a given person’s ancestors were themselves oppressed, a framing which by definition would be subjective and self-serving.

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  186. Solesearch, would you please go read my reasons , and try to come up with some kind of argument that represents what i said instead of boring me with what you think I said…

    I never said my arguments are based on what a majority of Africans beleive…I brought in varuous high leval papers , my god, which have absolutly no comparison to the use of the n word , you insult my intelligance with that comparison, just look at some of the well made papers I brought in of black Africans addressing their issues using SSA..I brought those in because people were saying africans dont use the term or describe themselves that way

    Please read what I argued..address that… Im really tired of discussing this with you when you abuse what I said…

    Words that have changed? At first it was “African American”..then that was criticised, then its “black American” ..then even that gets criticised…just for an example…if you started using one phrase, then someone would jump on you and complain it was incorrect…and this game goes on in the political correct semantics game…instead of addressing more pressing issues…yes, absolutly, some basic words and phrases should be scrutinised, but huge lists?

    Yes, political agendas…if you cant recognise that many arguments against interracial sex come from flawed political agendas, then you choose to be blind…lots of people say things that are coming from political agendas and dont even know about it…they just regurgitate stuff they read…lots of people will read valid political agendad truths and start weaving their own personal hangups into the truths, flawing them

    I have brought up four to five times the political agenda in the late 60’s that lambasted the high art of tap dancing , which was even evoked by Sondis recently, and that called Armstrong an Uncle Tom…these were flawed political agendas, that did great damage…tap dancing hasnt recovered into this day…

    Ah, but no one can address this …everyone can regugitate rhetoric but cant go back and really discuss what was going on…and tweak the mistakes

    oh, right Solesearch..you dont like jazz, you pretty much laughed at it, called me a “wig ger (let me tell you, I was doing my cultural thing before they even coined the phrase “blue eyed soul brother”),beleive me I got you were joking, but you dont even know a fraction of the truth, after I danced the boogaloo, along with many other culturaly popular dances and was accepted in the black community where I lived, and it wasnt small, the real education and learning began by learning how to execute and and accompany various Afro diasporic cultures…but you are almost proud to say you dont like jazz…by the way I work with hip hop and killer break dancers, I know what it takes to lay down various hip hop ghrooves more than you do, and have co written hip hop songs that got played on the radio

    but that is why you cant address the political agenda against Armstrong and tap dancing…you have no desire to learn about the history of your grandparents…jazz is black American history..not the other way around, you are a perfect example why

    you also insulted Brazilian bare booty Samba dancing and Baile Funk, so , you and me have a whole lot more serious disagreement than whether SSA is racist…I do mean serious disagreement..

    Please , I implore you, if my stand on SSA seems racist like Mbheti labeled me for my opinion on it, please exclude me from your circle that thinks the phrase is racist…because of your arguments on Brazilian culture and your ignorance on jazz, it is a circle I have no desire to be a part of…even if the one thing we have in common is interracial relationships

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  187. B.R., what is the political agenda that Abagond or I have for opposing SSA?
    What political agenda did white people have when they created the word?

    I’m arguing against what you posted on this thread. That you will reconsider the arguments in 5 years if SSA is condemned internationally by that time.

    The arguments won’t change so why would you?

    In not trying to abuse what you say. You can’t throw around empty phrases like political agenda and internationally condemned or arbitrary time periods like 5 years and expect to be understood. Say what you mean.

    The comparison with the n-word was valid. They are both words white people created to label black folks that were accepted by black people. That shows that black acceptance doesn’t mean a word isn’t racist.

    African American is commonly accepted among black Americans just as black American is. Neither has fallen out of acceptance. So…do you have any real examples.

    SSA is racist and makes no sense. If people begin building homes beneath the Sahara desert then Ill reconsider the phrase.

    I don’t like jazz. I don’t have to like it because I’m black. I don’t like opera either. What does that have to do with anything? What does your “cultural thing” have to do with anything? These are not rhetorical questions. You can listen to as much jazz as you like but you are still not black. I’m pretty sure Trayvon Martin didn’t like jazz either, but that didn’t save that black brother from being racially profiled and murdered.

    P.S. I wasn’t joking and you are a racist.

    Like


  188. @ biff

    “So, you win the argument (in your own mind). Congrats.”—Apparently he won in your mind as well because you made up an argument for him based on what you thought he was going to say and look….you declared him the winner. :)

    Like


  189. ” not believed by many whites about all whites (remember the majority who are not Jewish, not rich, not politically connected, etc.).”—As I have stated this before and sadly needs to be restated….what one believes and what is actually happening tend to be two different things. Many whites actually believe that minorities are benefiting from things they are not or can not (I am sure some can list the abundance of programs that whites believe they do not get to use). You should hear the response when they are presented with facts that whites are and have been using them.

    @ Randy

    Anything can be twisted to be “subjective and self-serving” and you are not short of using that tactic yourself at times.

    Like


  190. If you think Im racist, then our discussion is mute…you absolutly have no idea

    Please go ahead and think that, and exclude me from your circle, I dont want to be near it

    Like


  191. @ Solesearch

    I must say you have been kicking azz lately.

    Like


  192. What white people shouldn’t say – some of abagond’s points require common sense, others points are in very grey areas and make you wonder if he is being serious. Call it being pedantic.

    Like


  193. @Abagond

    “Caucasian – an outdated scientific term which many Americans still use”

    Shouldn’t that be “UNscientific”? The people who first used that term, Christoph Meiners and Johann Friedrich Blumenbach did not use any scientific method whatsoever. They used 100% subjectivity. “Caucasian” was used because Blumenbach believed people in the lower Caucasus were supposedly the most beautiful.

    Much later, Friedrich tried to justify this unscientific classifications with cranial measurements, but he disproved his initial assertions multiple times and still based his classifications on colours (obviously a visual, not measurable aspect). And, modern studies show that cranial measurements are not a good determinant of race anyway b/c there’s so much variation even within localised groups.

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  194. @ resw77

    Sure, it was disproved. That is how it became “outdated”. But at the time it was considered good science. Like phlogiston or the Ptolemaic system. It was not like it came from religion, philosophy or (directly) politics.

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  195. B.R.,

    “If you think Im racist, then our discussion is mute…you absolutly have no idea

    Please go ahead and think that, and exclude me from your circle, I dont want to be near it.”

    Our discussion is mute because instead of having an honest discussion you choose to hide your viewpoint behind vacuous statements that you refuse to clarify.

    I have no circle from which I can exclude you.

    Like


  196. Sharina, thank you. :-)

    Like


  197. @ resw77

    We think of beauty as subjective. Blumenbach and others of his time saw it as objective. They thought they could measure it by skull measurements and so on. Their failure to do so is part of why we see it as subjective.

    Like


  198. on Mon 16 Sep 2013 at 19:58:08 vanishing point.

    I don’t know if it has already been posted but there is a petition to ban the term sub-saharan, http://www.expertclick.com/NRWire/Releasedetails.aspx?id=33512
    on the Celebrate Africa website, by Chika Onyeani.

    Like


  199. @abagond

    “We think of beauty as subjective. Blumenbach and others of his time saw it as objective. They thought they could measure it by skull measurements and so on. Their failure to do so is part of why we see it as subjective.”

    That’s not a good excuse b/c the scientific method was around well before Blumenbach’s time. If he considered beauty to be objective, then he could have, e.g., measured facial symmetry in various groups of people and compared the results. But he just arbitrarily picked people who lived in the South Caucasus Mtns as the most beautiful out of personal preference and said anyone who looks similar must be the same race. But this was just a HYPOTHESIS, which was later disproved by cranial measurements.

    The reason people still hold on to his disproved hypothesis is b/c people, like you in this case, still call it “scientific” even though Blumenbach admitted his hypothesis was wrong, going as far as concluding that intraracial variations were often wider than interracial variations.

    People need to be aware that they were only hypothetical racial classifications, and AFTER the scientific method was applied, they were proven invalid.

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  200. I don’t know if it has already been posted but there is a petition to ban the term sub-saharan,

    Ban a term? Who will enforce that? The thought police?

    Like


  201. @ biff

    You did not answer my question regarding your comparison of POC to foreigners. In any case, I don’t care what you think, just like you don’t care what we think. As you said, I won the imaginary argument we just had. Whatever you say, whatever you say.

    Like


  202. Oh vanishing point, you mean the guy who wrote “Capatalist N word”? That is really compatible with this thread…

    Vanishing point , you are also one of the people who implied Im racist…I think you are full of it

    Sharina,, Solesearch calling me “wig ger” would be like calling Wynton Marsalis an “Oreo”, and only points out the weakness of her arguments

    That is the weakest buffoonish description of what I do..you know, Im long past copying Afro diasporic culture, I am so deep into it that I understand the fundimental principles and laws of exactly what makes it work. and am proficiant in many many differant Afro diasporic cultures….I own the beat and innovate my own ways of expressing Afro diasporic culture

    And , she and a lot of others cant even deal with the political agenda of smashing tap dancing or Armstrong , they just cant address it, she sluffs off jazz again by saying she doesnt listen to it or Opera either (my god i dont listen to it eother, im a profesioal player and have been hired on the bandstand by some top leval black American jazz musicians), as though that really has any relevance to the value of opera or jazz, thank god people’s little opinions dont dictate the value and depth of art and culture and culture is absolutly one of the most powerful ways to define people and their expresion and value

    I also addressed exactly the origins of this political agenda of SSA..read what I said on the thread

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  203. of course meaning it would be like calling Wynton Marsalis an oreo for playing classical music…I mean its pathetic and ridiculous

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  204. @ Gio

    I doubt it has anything to do with what one is thinking.

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  205. @ B. R.

    I am not on anybodies side in regards to the argument but lately she is kicking azz and taking no names. I have to give her credit for that.

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  206. and not with you but with others as well.

    Like


  207. Besides it is good for me to just read and make very little comments at the moment. I have a lot on my mind…much of which would keep me from presenting a good argument, but no harm in watching a good one take place. :)

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  208. B.R.,

    You are the one who believes a person has to fit into a racially defined behavioral pattern for them to be part of a race. That’s why you brought up the jazz thing right? To discredit my blackness? To affirm yours? Or was it just an attempt to derail the topic?

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  209. You are darned real its relevant to understand the value and origins of Afro diasporic culture…and their struggles and victories…to not understand the connections across the board , how a smilar dynamic goes on in Brazil, is just wanting to be ignorant…its not enough to just mouth it, you have to know what is going down on the ground

    What a huge disconnect for anyone to think its just hunkydorey to sluff off black American jazz history…and the activists who laid their agenda out on tap dancibg and Armstrong, did just that, they shoved their grandparents under the bus without taking the minimum time to apreciete their great value

    Oh so people think they know all about the semantical battle about “black” and “African American”..I was there , I saw this…why the fuk do you think I said Ill wait 5 years to see how this plays out with SSA? Because I saw this thing conflict for some years and now its both are more accepted…but not entirely…you can be sure , while there are more pressing issues ton deal with than that, , someone will come out of the woodwork and debate the correctness of using black or African american

    Really, people who diss on Afro Brazilian culture for bare bootie or Baile Funk…who dont care about the value of black American jazz, who call me, a veteran jazz and samba, coco, hip hop, maracatu, rumba, gua gua co, candomble, coco, funk drummer, a wig ger and a racist just for debating why I dont think the phrase SSA is racist, its the intent how its used that dictates it , I just promise to get away from them, They can feel free to exclude me, call me a racist , and its my pleasure to be on the opisite side of the line from them

    Im rereading the bio of Coltrane…there is a section about when he was young and in school, and a classmate the author was interviewing stated how he was upset about their black school getting seconbd hand books, band instruments and football uniforms…it affected him in a deep way..one of Americas greatest musicians…he is black history, he is the story of black Americans grand parents…jazz is black American history…you can learn incredible things about how things were like for black Americans back then..incredible insights, and you dont have to like jazz…by the way , I dont listen to jazz, I practice an hour a day with it and other Afro diasporic cultures, it is one of the profound centering moments for me in the day, a tremendous source of healing and growing and evolving…it never stops, and the rewards are profound…wig ger indeed..bs indeed

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  210. sharina said:
    @ Gio

    I doubt it has anything to do with what one is thinking

    @Sharina

    I think there is very thinking going on, and too much emotion.

    Like


  211. I never said you had to fit a form or listen to jazz , Solesearch…when did I ever say that? You need to understand what Im saying…

    No one has to and very few people are listening to jazz, even the white jazz musicians dont know the things Im talking about…I debate them all the time about this

    You are black Solesearch, you know what it is like to be black and I dont, you know what it is like to face white racism, and I dont, but I know what it is like to be tried to be physicaly intimidaterd for being with blac females, from all sides, tried , because they didnt suceed

    But I never put your blacness in question I am not defining what it takes to be black, I put in question your bias against black Brazizilian culture that doesnt fit yout mold…I dont care if you dont like jazz, but it is deep dish black American history, loaded with treasure for those who really want to discover buried treasure

    thanks, Sharina for clarifying

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  212. B.R.,
    Again what is the political agenda that Abagond has for advocating against “sub Saharan African”?

    You keep mentioning my dislike of jazz. It is irrelevant and obsessive. This isn’t the first time you have brought it up on an unrelated topic. I don’t have a political agenda against jazz music. Lol. I just don’t like most of it. And I don’t have to like it just because I’m black! I don’t like chitterlings or collard greens either. I guess you think I have a political agenda against pig intestines also.

    Again African American and Black American haven’t fallen out of acceptance and I don’t think either is disparaging. And I base my opinion on the arguments and not who is currently using those labels, unlike you.

    You keep throwing political agenda around like it’s some nefarious phrase. You’re like Fox News talking about the liberal agenda without specifying what you mean.

    Like


  213. I on the other hand happen to like opera as well as collard greens and chitterlings (preferably with hot sauce…particularly texas pete). LOL

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  214. B.R.,

    “But I never put your blacness in question I am not defining what it takes to be black, I put in question your bias against black Brazizilian culture that doesnt fit yout mold…I dont care if you dont like jazz, but it is deep dish black American history, loaded with treasure for those who really want to discover buried treasure.”

    So you turned our discussion on SSA into a discussion about my supposed bias against black Brazilian culture? You are really obsessive. This is not the booty dancing thread.

    I don’t have a problem with learning about jazz history. I just don’t want to listen to most of it. Why are we talking about this?

    Like


  215. Sharina,

    “I on the other hand happen to like opera as well as collard greens and chitterlings (preferably with hot sauce…particularly texas pete). LOL”

    Well then, I must exclude you from my circle.

    Like


  216. @ Gio

    “I think there is very thinking going on, and too much emotion.”—Perhaps, but I don’t believe the petition is meant to stop people from thinking the term sub Saharan Africa. I think it is meant to deter the usage to be a legitimate way of describing that particular area of Africa.

    Like


  217. @Solesearch

    “Well then, I must exclude you from my circle.”—ROFL

    Like


  218. I didnt say you had a political agenda about jazz, I say what you said…you just dont like it

    Please dont play these games with me , Solesearch, twist my words, wont take the time to read the other thread where I answer these questions

    How is jazz derailing when Armstrong and tap dancing were victoms of an agenda,trying to put flawed attention on it instead of the white racists who liked it, when their older generation hated it and wanted to ban it…when Im pointing out this agenda on SSA smacks of an agenda I vividly pointed out on African Holocaust, who elaborated more on the arguments presented by commenters here , and I found it an agenda , that I pointed out direct flaws in his statements about culture etc

    Now , saying Im willing to wait 5 years , out of deep respect for my debating partners, yourself also,to find out if this does really become a serious , in widley discussed , absolutly relevant to contributing to racism , instead of looking harshly at how theones who use it with racist intent are the problem, what is the problem with that?

    Why do I have to jump because a small group of people are discussing it, some with a pan African black Islamic agenda , meaning the African Haulocaust site,

    What is the rush or urgency to force me to lock step with this agenda? Like I said, you and me have much deeper disagreements, where i really dont trust your judgement, why should I trust you on this one?

    On the other hand, you being in an interracial relationship means I respect that , and what you have to face on all sides …but its like I feel uncomfortable with your views on these other subjects , strange feeling with these dichotomies to be sure…its all political agendas…I am surprised people cant see this…Jim Crow is political agenda…slavery was an afgenda…Communism is a political agenda, the right and Fox news is a political agenda..fundimentalist religions are religous agendasetc

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  219. B.R.,
    “its all political agendas…I am surprised people cant see this…Jim Crow is political agenda…slavery was an afgenda…Communism is a political agenda, the right and Fox news is a political agenda..fundimentalist religions are religous agendasetc”

    Having a political agenda is not a bad thing. The agenda can be bad but having one isnt.

    What is Abagond’s political agenda for being against SSA?

    Like


  220. B.R.,

    “Why do I have to jump because a small group of people are discussing it, some with a pan African black Islamic agenda , meaning the African Haulocaust site,

    What is the rush or urgency to force me to lock step with this agenda? Like I said, you and me have much deeper disagreements, where i really dont trust your judgement, why should I trust you on this one?”

    Exactly, so why jump in 5 years? Why does it matter if it is a small group or a large group. Why isn’t it based on the actual arguments?

    I’m not asking you to trust my judgement. I’m asking why trust some future international judgement. I’m asking what could change in 5 years that would make you see this word as racist?

    Like


  221. @Biff

    “what is the preferred terminology that you think whites would like to use to describe the phenomenon?”

    What is the preferred terminology that non-whites would have for discussing the idea that whites are a superior race?

    You know that is not what is meant be “white privilege”. It has to do with the little (and not so little things) that whites enjoy on a regular basis that are not enjoyed by non-whites regularly, if at all. Some of these are a simply “peace of mind” matters. Some examples:

    – assurance that you will not be stopped on the highway for DWB, not stopped in a store for SWB and not stopped and frisked for simply walking through a park
    – basic courtesy from clerks, waitresses, customer service officers, etc.
    – knowing that a real estate agent will not steer you into a neighborhood with high crime that is not protected by the police, or simply tell you that they have no apartments / houses available (despite a long list of vacancies)
    – not having to hear a manager of a near empty restaurant / hotel tell you that all the tables / rooms are reserved and they have no more space.
    – not having to prove you are a citizen and that you are not in the country illegally to potential employers, or even to police stopping you randomly
    – not having to face being passed up for a job because your English is not good enough, even though your English is way better than all of the other candidates
    – not having to worry that triage will keep you at the bottom of the queue at the emergency room
    – not having immigration officers accuse you of having a fake passport at immigration control, or forcing you to wait in a separate long line.
    – not having to consider that at a job interview, the manager will ask you how long you have been in the country and where you learned English (even if you were an English major or got perfect scores on your Test of Written / Oral English or told them that you are from New Jersey or Arizona)
    – good assurance that a cop will not shoot and kill you even if you are simply approaching him for help
    – not arrested by the police for simply entering your own house
    – not having 150 points subtracted each of your SAT test scores so that “your kind” won’t overcrowd universities and scare aware donors.
    – not being refused taking a course / being served in an institution so that you won’t scare off other potential students / target customers
    – not to have to be on the constant lookout for your fellow officers, colleagues, teammates, etc. even your managers in case they decide to haze you and force you to do dehumanizing acts
    – not concerned that a taxi will not stop to pick you up

    Now, this phenomenon does exist and is actually quite common. We should have a name for it. If white people prefer not to call it “white privilege” because of negative connotations associated with this term, what is a better term to describe a very real and regular phenomenon? The phenomenon of “white privilege” is NOT the concept that “whites are a superior race”.

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  222. Solesearch , you called me a racist, and wig ger…I actualy know I have the capacity to understand if I made poor judgement…I have a responsibility to my wife and son to protect them from racism…which they experiance..what makes you think you can analyse me and know what I will do in 5 years? Beleive me, if I change my mind on this in 5 years, I will remember these discussions here…and you can feel free to have disdain for me.

    Ive got my eye on the racists and their intent, not the words…they know how to change , they know how to substitute words…I say fine if there are people here who want to concentrate on words , and make that the focal point, but Im keeping my eyes on the racists and where they go , because that is what my street instincts tell me, and I trust my street instincts more than cyber opinion debates…

    All I can say is, most, but not all of Abagonds arguments, were found in a more elaborated version in the African Holocaust site , no put down on Abagonds points…and that site had an agenda…people can use arguments they got from somewhere else and not even know it is a political agenda..all I can say is, I disagree with Abagond on that issue, heck ,he is Catholic, Im sure we would disagree on Abortion rights, it gives me no pleasure to disagree, but I can only be honest about how I feel and give my opinion

    …besides that, he has said personaly, it makes his skin crawl…look, Im not here to argue against a personal feeling about a phrase, if it makes him feel bad,it makes him feel bad, there are phrases used on here that make me feel bad also…there is a high leval of offending insults and put downs on here…I dont think you can discuss racial issues and not be offended…its just part of the territory…Im seeing people get thrown under the bus for no real reason who didnt deserve it

    Yes, I agree there are good political agendas, I mentioned that above…people can also weave their personal hangups into good agendas and ruin them

    You know, if you read my arguments on the SSA thread, you would know why , to me, all these Afro diasporic cultures Ive mentioned above in my posts, relate to what I am arguing about on SSA…their origins are the force and reason why I use the term to focus on the fonte of where these incredible cultures came from

    Now, people can disagree with that, I really dont want to go into repeating these debates , so, Im saying, people can disagree with my concepts…but if you really understand my concepts, you have to refute my argument culturaly, because that is totaly where I am coming from..you cant refute it politicaly, they dont compute, they are seperate entities, you have to deal with my arguments and refute them on a cultural leval..and beleive me, the African Holocaust made cultural flawed errors that weakoned his argument…and I pointed it out

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  223. This makes me sad. I am sad that so many people have so many terrible interactions with white people that words can bring forth such awful feelings that people would prefer these words not be used. And that people can have so many negative interactions with white people that some of these questions which might be real interest in a person’s life can’t be asked to further a meaningful relationship with people of other races because in the past they have been asked as a way of demeaning someone. This will make me sound extremely naive but I wish that we could all treat each other respectfully.

    Like


  224. Also, Solesearch , there are words on Abagond’s list that have differant opinions by black people on here…Kwamla once said that “ethnic” was a more correct way to refer to someones background, in advice he is giving white people, and that word is on here , in Abagonds list of words he is suggesting white people shouldnt say.

    Now, Abagond and kwamla have regular disagreements, that is no surprise, but the semantic confusion of having conflicting opinions about advice what white people should say is a big reason I feel there is nothing wrong with seeing where things go about a semantic before I jst stop using a word or phrase if it isnt an obvious racist term…I mean some wrds and phrases are obvious, others are foggy and based more on intent

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  225. @Adeen.. You know what I am proud of you. You are a person that stands by their beliefs no matter what anyone says. That ultimately will be a strong quality to have in life GOOD FOR YOU!. The only advice I would have, in that matter, is you might run into someone with a conflicting opinion that is also a good person as well. It is polite to listen to that opinion. Even if you don’t agree. Don’t all the time rush to judgement. Maybe they have a different point of view for a reason. Like different experiences. Doesn’t mean they are bad… just see things from a different lens. You always refer to white americans as the “white amerikkklans”… now I know why you do that, and feel for your frustration … I feel your pain. But another “white” american, as young as you are, might not understand as I do, and take that as a personal shot. It is human nature. Don’t speak as much in absolutes as the baddies do on the hate sites you go to.

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  226. kali

    I am sad that so many people have so many terrible interactions with white people

    I doubt that’s what is happening. On a per capita bass, they probably have much more negative interactions with those of their own race. They overlook it because it’s members of their own race. But when it’s whites they become hypersensitive due to their own racism. Then they use it as confirmatory bias to justify their own prejudice.

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  227. @ Da Jokah

    *SWOOOSH!!!*

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  228. @Abagond … what the joker had said is true in some cases. There is racist blacks that look at racist whites as their justification and vise versa. Wake up bro. I know you see the other side of the coin… that is a given. But you don’t acknowledge the reverse.

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  229. on Tue 17 Sep 2013 at 06:39:55 AquariusHasRisen

    A NOTICE LEFT TO THIS MALE DAVE.

    @Dave

    It’s hilarious when white people use the “ALL OF US AMERICANS SHOULD BAN TOGETHER BECAUSE THEY ARE TAKING AWAY OUR RIGHTS.” Now you feel like a tiny drop of what it is to being black. Blacks had their cars searched by the government, blacks were followed, not allowed to gather and white people were pin drop quiet BUT SOON AS IT HAPPENS TO YOU. You start the “we Americans need to stand strong against the tyrant of the government.” We blacks have never had any rights, why would we care if you’re finally catching up with us? And stop being condescending to Adeen.

    “I feel your frustration” then he goes on to add “but”than goes on to talk of his fellow tribe of young white amerikkans who are even more delusional than their elders on . Why should she care? Members of her group are being hurled in prison and shot by cops and not given justice and you are telling her to worry about some privileged white kid who guzzles beers every night in college telling black jokes to each other. OH STOP IT.

    Who cares if they take it as a “personal potshot”.

    NOTICE TO MY FELLOW BLOGGERS: WHITE PEOPLE ALWAYS LOOK OUT FOR EACH OTHER. EVEN THE ONES LIKE DAVE WHO CLAIM THEY ARE NOT RACIST. WHO HANG AROUND BLACK’S OR CONVERSE WITH THEM ON BLOGS LIKE THIS. Dave is nothing more than a gate keeper.

    YES GATE KEEPER.

    He takes the character of a white male who pretends to care. A wolf in sheeps clothing, this Dave male is tolerable enough to stay on the blog. Dave male pretends to try to understand but is always challenging black’s thoughts whom he cares so dearly about.

    I BET THIS CHARACTER EVEN CLAIMS TO HAVE A BLACK BOYFRIEND OR GIRLFRIEND.

    Dave male throws his emotions in people’s faces when he senses they get to “rowdy , EMOTIONAL, OR THINKING”. He reminds them that “whites have feelings to” , “be nice to the racist whites”. TO KEEP YOU IN CHECK.

    Dave IS THE ARCHETYPE WHITE CHARACTER of the most dangerous types of white people out there. THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU ARE IN CHECK. THEY TRY TO KEEP YOU “IN LINE”.

    “WE AGREE , I AM SO PROUD” BUT….WAIT, HERE IT IS…. THERE IS ALWAYS A BUT…

    THESE PEOPLE HIDE IN SCHOOLS, THEY HIDE IN YOUR CIRCLE OF FRIENDS, HELL THEY MAY EVEN LAY BESIDE YOU IN YOUR BED.

    THEY ALWAYS LISTEN AND INSERT “BUT” OR “HOWEVER”.

    THEY ARE GATEKEEPERS, THE WORST KIND. THEY MANIPULATE EMOTIONS. They do it well.

    DON’T TOUCH THIS CHARACTER WITH A FORTY FOOT POLE.

    And a racist GATEKEEPER white person will take what I am stating as telling black’s to go out and murder all whites. IF THEY ARE THAT STUPID TO TAKE WHAT I AM SAYING AS THAT TO EACH ITS OWN. I DON’T NEED TO PANDER TO THESE CHARACTERS. I think its about time, these characters be pointed out AND DEFINED. REMEMBER THAT SAYING IT TAKES A VILLAGE TO RAISE A CHILD, WELL WE DID THAT IN THEIR HOMES AGAINST OUR WILL FOR DECADES.

    See white people have egos. THAT’S HOW THEIR SICK SOCIETY BRED THEM, THEY CAN’T NOT HAVE EGOS ABOUT WHITENESS, THE APPLE PIE OF THE WORLD , THE LOVE OF THEIR LIVES, THEY LIKE WHITE THINGS, WHITE SUGAR, WHITE FENCES AND….LOL EVEN THEIR JESUS IS NOW SHARP FEATURED WHITE GUY WITH HAIR THAT LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING RU PAUL WOULD WEAR FOR A SHOW. White people aae so fragile they had to take brain sugar and flour and turn it white. LOL Egos are fragile. They are empowered by their egos and their ego is the very thing that is going to take them down , LOOK AT AMERICA vs. SYRIA AND RUSSIA. Lol!

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  230. You know nothing of me… don’t pretend you do.

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  231. on Tue 17 Sep 2013 at 06:42:43 AquariusHasRisen

    Sorry for the typos
    *Ban
    *Brown
    And correction to any other words typed during my rant.

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  232. Syria? HA! that is another story! Guess what fool. It is rich ass globalists that laugh when american white and black people fight over the ridiculous instead of banning together to stop our rights from fading away. I know nothing of you but what you wrote is total bs.

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  233. on Tue 17 Sep 2013 at 06:47:39 AquariusHasRisen

    @ Dave

    Lol, doing night watch must be horribly tiresome. I have a glass of lemonade and a tuna sandwich, the gatekeeper must be very hungry!

    Mr. Abagond: Well done sir. Well done. Now I will be off. Thank you for your post. It was very entertaining and truthful.

    Like


  234. on Tue 17 Sep 2013 at 06:49:00 AquariusHasRisen

    Bye Dave. I will no longer entertain your character.

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  235. Jefe:

    “You know that is not what is meant be “white privilege”. [of course not–it was a counter-example of something many people think is BS and don’t want to hear] It has to do with the little (and not so little things) that whites enjoy on a regular basis that are not enjoyed by non-whites regularly, if at all. Some of these are a simply “peace of mind” matters. Some examples:…”

    The examples you list differ by race (they do not all apply to blacks or Asians equally, for instance). However, generally, what you refer to is the absence of some racially motivated mistreatment. This is not a “privilege” in the minds of most whites. People tend to treat others of their race better, all things being equal. If I was in a black neighborhood with no whites, I probably wouldn’t be treated as well as a black person. I didn’t feel a lot of love in parts of Detroit or LA. Even in a Chinese neighborhood where everyone is Chinese (like China town), I can sometimes feel unwelcome–certainly the reception for someone speaking Cantonese is much more cordial in certain places (this is just an example).

    When I go to foreign countries, I never heard of Japanese privilege or Chinese privilege or whatnot. Yes, in America, it’s less clear, because we’re a nation or immigrants. But look at the UK, British used to mean white British (i.e., a nationality and ethnicity, just like Japanese or Korean), but now they accept people from all over and call them British. America could have been defined by being white American (in the past it partly was). America could have pushed out immigrants who weren’t white (in the past, there was a lot of this, but now we make a real effort to be inclusive.. more than any industrialized non-Western nation). For Asian Americans of East Asian descent, I have limited sympathy (not that I don’t like Asians personally or culturally, because I certainly do, but in the sense of seeing them as victims). You or your ancestors make a decision to come to the U.S. for a better life, knowing you will be in the minority. East Asians now on average make more money than whites in the U.S. They are more likely to go to ivy league schools (though the competition is tougher, because so many are well educated)–and look at the UC system. Then, you can come and complain about “white privilege”. OK, what I’m saying is most whites don’t agree with this concept generally and have no desire to listen to it, because they find it offensive. If you don’t care what they think, don’t be surprised if they return the favor. This post is all about not saying things that might offend someone somewhere (but only if that person is not white, apparently).

    Now if you have specific examples of mistreatment you or someone in your family received, whites are OK listening to this… we just don’t like blanket statements that make it sound like anyone with white skin is born with a silver spoon their mouth.

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  236. AquariusHasRisen:

    I agree with every word you speak about Dave and white people in general in America.

    The difference between me and you on this blog is that i refuse to engage in an argument with white people like Dave as i feel its a waste of time.

    Lots of black people on this blog, prefer to argue with racist white people, rather than talk to their own black people about how we need to talk to our young black children about the white supremacist society , they’re about to enter and how to navigate, within it.

    The justification that’s used, when defending the back and forth arguing is pathetic and has no ground to stand on.

    Most black people on this blog are addicted to arguing with white racist, which makes me believe that if white racists wouldn’t come here, most of the black people on this blog, wouldn’t have anything to talk about and would simply fall off the blog all together.

    This is a trap and all apart of the plan by white racists to stir up the racial pot, to get black people angry, so we can’t gather our thoughts and talk amongst each other on how to fight white supremacy.

    NO, arguing with white racist on a black identified blog, isn’t anywhere close to effectively fighting white supremacy.

    Ignoring them and educating young black men and women about Racism,white supremacy and white privilege, is effectively fighting white supremacy.

    I don’t need to see black people on this blog, fuss and fight with white racist in order for me to understand, that they are racist. I also don’t need to see them say the things that white racists say in order for me to understand, their way of thinking.

    My life experiences with white people has shown me, everything i need to know about white people. Reading their tripe on a black blog, that’s supposedly for black people, won’t give me anymore incite that i already have or need on them.

    This blog has turned into a haven for white people to come and stir up trouble and the majority of blacks on this blog, fall for it, hook line and sink, every single time.

    I for one, has not and will not…..

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  237. After reading sondis’ last comment, it’s clear that his definition of a white racist is any white person who won’t agree with a black racist.

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  238. @Biff
    Since you seem to recognize what is happening and speculate that there are racial differences, it seems that you acknowledge that something is going on. I think all non-whites get these treatments to some extent, but admittedly some might be higher for blacks, some higher for Asians, some higher for Latinos, etc. I did not specify race, because they are all examples related to the same phenomenon. The fact that you assigned them to racial categories shows that you think (ie, “agree”) that race is involved.

    what you refer to is the absence of some racially motivated mistreatment. This is not a “privilege” in the minds of most whites.

    What is it called then? What would white people prefer to call it? You think they would feel comfortable calling it “the absence of some racially motivated mistreatment”. I think most non-whites might feel that if white people enjoy “an absence of mistreatment”, it is a form of privilege that white people enjoy much more than non-whites.
    I really don’t think white people are really treated so badly most of the time when they visit neighborhoods that are not majority white. What is likely happening is the white person feels a bit out of place, out of his element, not used to navigating in American neighborhoods that are not majority white. It is exceedingly rare that they will be subjected to a high degree to “racially motivated mistreatment”. In the case of Spanish-speaking or Chinese-speaking neighborhoods, if the white person spoke Spanish or Cantonese / Mandarin, I really don’t think they would be subject to mistreatment either. In fact, I think in Chinatowns, they would probably even be given *special* favorable treatment and not “racially motivated mistreatment”. Asian-Americans, black Americans and Latino-Americans speak English to white Americans. This does not shield them from “racially motivated mistreatment”.

    Those parts of Detroit and LA you are talking about, as well as Chinatown, are not in some other country. They are just as part of America and are just as American as any other neighborhood in the USA.

    When I go to foreign countries

    We are talking about the USA and how American people are treated within their own country. We are not talking about how foreigners are treated when they travel to foreign countries.

    I never heard of Japanese privilege or Chinese privilege or whatnot.

    Again, we are talking about the USA and not other countries, but speaking of Japan and China, you evidently don’t know much about those countries.

    China is home to several dozen recognized ethnic minorities, the majority group of which is called “Han”. Han Chinese routinely enjoy “Han Privilege” in the country – they are given preferential treatment in the government and business, home and land ownership, and the whole country is taught a history and ideology that glorifies their culture. Many of the minority groups are oppressed, are not allowed to practice their culture or religion, have Han Chinese represent them politically, etc. Some of the larger ones, eg, the Tibetans or Uyghurs (Uighurs) are particularly vilified. Uyghurs are viewed as thugs, criminals, murderers and as muslim terrorists. I have been to Xinjiang in NW china, and I see the deep distrust between the Han and Uyghurs. Uyghurs have also settled in big cities in the East (Shanghai, Beijing, etc.) and they are definitely subjected to “racially motivated mistreatment”. Abagond did a post on them:
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/09/uighurs/

    Japan has 5 primary groups of Japanese which are routinely denied what I suppose I can term “standard privilege” including
    – the Ainu people (the “aborigines” of Japan) and a few other indigenous groups that predated the “Yamato”.
    – 3rd, 4th, 5th generation Japanese of Chinese, Korean, or other non-Japanese descent
    – Multiracial Japanese (ie, those that are part white or part black, etc. but also part Filipino, Vietnamese, Indian, etc.)
    – Burakamin (outcastes in the Japanese caste system)
    – Ryukyuan / Okinawan people, whose language and culture differs from the Yamato Japanese coming form the larger main islands.

    If you study about any of them, you will find that they have all suffered severe “racially motivated mistreatment”. The 2nd and 4th group sometimes try to hide their origins, but if they are found out, they can still suffer mistreatment. Mainstream Japanese call themselves “Yamato”.

    But, it would be a mistake to say that it is OK for the USA to do it because China and Japan do it. No, it is not.

    And there is a bigger reason why it is even more wrong in the USA:

    look at the UK, British used to mean white British (i.e., a nationality and ethnicity, just like Japanese or Korean), but now they accept people from all over and call them British. America could have been defined by being white American (in the past it partly was). America could have pushed out immigrants who weren’t white (in the past, there was a lot of this, but now we make a real effort to be inclusive.. more than any industrialized non-Western nation).

    Sorry, but since when was the USA a white nation? If you suggest that it was, even in the past, that implies that you see all of the other people as guests, either immigrants, or in the case of Native Americans, foreigners in their own land. White people even tried to push them off. It is completely wrong to compare the UK to the USA in this regard. Just to remind you

    – Humans arrived to the Americas 14,000 years ago, colonized the whole of North and South America 12,000 years ago, but with limited migration after 10,000 years ago due to the flooding of the Asian – American land bridge. Permanent settlements were not made in England until about 6,000 years ago, and their descendants did not settle in the Americas until the 1600s.
    – Asians (from the Philippines and China) traveled to America on the Spanish Manila Galleons since 1585, with some settlements of Asians in California dating back to 1587. The English had not even come to America yet.
    – Africans arrived roughly at the same time as Europeans to eastern North America
    – 19th ethnic Chinese arrived to the western states at the same time as Anglo-Americans arrived from the East, also in significant numbers comparable to the whites in many areas. But the majority of them were indeed driven out or killed.
    I could go on and on, but the country was built on the blood, sweat and tears of all of its peoples. To suggest that white people ever could have the right to drive them out, and can decide with a straight face that “now we make a real effort to be inclusive “is probably biggest admittance of the concept of “white privilege” if I have ever seen one in my life. Why don’t Chinese-Americans or black Americans have the “privilege” of “making a real effort to be inclusive” in allowing white people to be treated as regular Americans? What about Native Americans? If anything, their effort to be inclusive backfired and ended up in their removal.

    For Asian Americans of East Asian descent, I have limited sympathy
    … in the sense of seeing them as victims).

    You don’t see blacks, latinos, Native Americans as victims of “White privilege” so how could I expect you to see Asian Americans as such? Abagond has a few examples on his blog, but I suppose you simply dismissed them all. But you committed one of them right here – you brought up Chinatowns (as though they are not “real” American neighborhoods), and then about racial privilege in China / Japan. You also view Asian-Americans as some kind of “perpetual foreigner”.

    Did you know that the largest single public lynching in US history was inflicted on ethnic Chinese (1871 LA massacre)? I suppose you believe the Model Minority stereotype, and think that Americans of Asian descent are not racially profiled, there is no bamboo ceiling and they are not the victims of hate crimes. You believe all sorts of stuff that have no basis in reality. Maybe you could consider getting to know your fellow Americans a bit better instead of assuming that they “don’t have a lotta love for you.” Sounds like you are projecting yourself on them.

    The reason why I know about this was because my mom was white. My mother had to go and rent apartments for her family, do househunting with real estate agents, hire public services, attend meetings with the school principal, go and do all sorts of things without her family present, because she figured out that she had a special kind of privilege that the rest of her family did not. They would not even give my father the time of day, or do something even worse to him or the children (eg, violence). Our family could not rent an apartment, stay in a hotel, buy a house, etc. It is just the way American society was, and in many respects, still is. She learned the truth and admitted it. Why is it so hard for you?

    I am not talking about a silver spoon in one’s mouth. You think of the word “privilege” as something that only the select few enjoy, as if it is the same as being born rich. Maybe we should call it an “immunity” – a sense that you can enjoy some very basic rights and courtesies and considerations as a citizen without concern that they will be removed from you at any second. “Immunity” can refer to an “absence of mistreatment”.

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  239. Isn’t non-white Eurocentric?

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  240. @kali

    I think if a white person is truly curious about something then ask. There is no guarantee on how the person of color will respond but if one asks he may be surprised that he will get a reasonable answer.

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  241. @ da jokah

    And do explain how on a per capita basis blacks are experiencing racism from their own?

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  242. On the topic at hand….I would go so far as to say I don’t take issues with all of these but for those that I do it is because the individual that uses them are just plain ignorant in my eyes. Mock of any language, racial slurs or jokes, using negro or oriental.

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  243. @Solesearch

    Isn’t non-white Eurocentric?

    Yeah, perhaps, at least white-centric, but still not as bad as “minority”. Are you suggesting another word?

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  244. Jefe, I guess if there is a need to lump everyone that is not white under one label then we should probably use people of color.

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  245. @Solesearch

    I don’t like the term , ”People of color” because it should only apply to us Black Americans and the term literally means that we are Europeans with dark skin. Blacks, Asians and others are a completely different race from White people with different cultural beliefs. And most of all, Whites are not the progenitors of mankind.

    We, Black people are. Honestly I hate how Eurocentric everything in this society is but as a young, Black person, I have no choice but to accept it.

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  246. @Jefe

    You told Biff off! I completely agree with you on this one.

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  247. on Tue 17 Sep 2013 at 22:01:29 AquariusHasRisen

    @Sondis.

    Lol, hello to whereever side of the world you are located.

    My calling out that character had a point. Lol, trust me. IT WAS NOT TO CORRECT DAVE OR GET HIM TO “SEE THE LIGHT” because Lol, we know he ain’t ever.

    I did this for the younger black youth who might read this thread and be tricked by that character’s “We the great Amerikkana , we need to love each other and forget my white supremacy culture smacking you in the face and keep it going . Some of us are good like I, please massage my ego, I graced you with my attention” rhetoric.

    These characters needed to be defined for younger generations of black youth. Sadly it is lost.

    NOTICE TO RANDOM READERS:

    In fact, this generation is Generation Gate Keeper / Generation Dave like the character above. The Democrat young whites who vote for Obama and eat gumbo while cracking black jokes in your face and frowning as soon as you say anything out of line or to “DEEP” or to “EMOTIONAL”. Cult behavior. They get off on that. People like that, go in generational stages, when this “We the people” (which the culture they embrace stole from the natives ) phase is over. Their ABUSE AND HATRED IS GONNA COME RIGHT OUT. Because god knows, it’s been shown in history when their group is “silenced” for to long for a few decades, their hatred comes shooting out like a bat out of hell. Generation Gatekeeper is getting very angry at having been “kept down”. Their culture is going to bomb themselves to death. Their elites don’t listen to them. They lost their houses. They have no jobs.

    THEY FELL HARD THROUGH THE SKY ON THE CEMENT. THEY ARE ANGRY THAT BLACKS AND MEXICANS. WHY? WE DIDN’T HAVE TO TAKE THAT FALL BECAUSE WE WERE ALREADY THERE.

    SO THEY ARE ENVIOUS.

    They need scapegoats. Now they are blaming Asians in the news! Generation Gatekeeper is getting RESTLESS. See the cracks in the dam. There is a storm coming. There are cracks shattering the wall.

    KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSE is what they live by. Oh hahaha and they sure do a good job. Most of us don’t see it coming. Lol Stormfront didn’t give themselves that name because they thought it was pretty. They gave themselves that name because there’s a storm on the way, it’s brewing.

    Those rifle toting clowns know it too.

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  248. Adeen, I’m not sure what you mean, but I too have qualms about the phrase people of color or any phrase that would lump African Americans in with other currently non-white people.

    An excerpt from an article munu aka Bantu posted in the open thread sums up why I don’t generally like the phrase people of color.

    “But the social divide between whites and those groups is more a function of the slow-rolling, generational process of immigrant assimilation. That is a wholly different phenomenon from the social divide between whites and blacks, which is the product of 400 years of slavery and segregation. ”

    It implies a shared sense of purpose in opposing white supremacy that most non-blacks don’t have.

    But I think using terms like POC or non-white hints that the conversation is being oversimplified. In most discussions on racism it would probably be more accurate to divide us into blacks and non blacks than whites and non whites. At least that’s how I view racism.

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  249. @Solesearch

    You are correct but sorry but I was ranting at the time. I don’t like the term ”People of color” to use to describe all non Whites for various reasons.

    First of all, ”People of color” the term suggests that we are dark skin White people. We, non Whites especially Black people are not dark skin White people. Our skin is darker than Whites because we come from different racial and ethnicity groups from them. We are completely different from those Neanderthals!

    Second of all, we non Whites(I am a Black person myself) are of different racial and cultural histories from White people. People of color used to apply to all non Whites in AmeriKKKlan is wrong because not all non Whites are the same racial or ethnicity group. As a Black woman, I wouldn’t want to be lumped with all non White minorities in this country.

    Most of all, us Blacks are lumped together with other minority groups who can’t stand us, Hispanics and some Asians. Why would I want to be lumped with all non White minorities who live in AmeriKKKlan when many of them don’t even like my existence as a young, Black woman in a racist country.

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  250. @Solesearch

    Anyways I liked your quote and logical too. And my own reasoning on racism is that racism is a system where White people have privileges and advantages over non White people because of the color of their skin and features. In this situation, Blacks and other non Whites are disadvantaged in this White supremacist system. Racism is often times one sided: Whites’ racism towards Blacks. Racism is all about divide, conquer and divide. Whites have the power to oppress and still do to this day and they are still using that power to oppress Blacks and other non Whites worldwide.

    And Black people can’t be racist because the oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor. We have never systematically oppressed them with limiting their job or career opportunities because of the color of their skin, race or ethnicity, we have never kill them to take their land, we didn’t create a racist system that benefits us, etc. A Black person who hates White people or dislikes them is merely bigoted and prejudiced but not racist because they don’t have the power to oppress.

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  251. “AquariusHasRisen

    @Sondis.

    Lol, hello to where ever side of the world you are located.

    My calling out that character had a point. Lol, trust me. IT WAS NOT TO CORRECT DAVE OR GET HIM TO “SEE THE LIGHT” because Lol, we know he ain’t ever.”

    I hear ya, brotha!

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  252. sharina

    And do explain how on a per capita basis blacks are experiencing racism from their own?

    Learn to read. I said “negative interactions” not racism. You proved my point by assuming the latter. And those negative interactions include everything from rape, murder, assault and stealing to plain old bad attitudes.

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  253. Hey Sondis… If you don’t have the testicular fortitude to directly engage with me then keep my name out your mouth.

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  254. It’s not polite to talk about people like they don’t exist.

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  255. I told Adeen that this blog is not the opposite of a white “skinnedhead” hate blog.. so when you are openly critical of an entire group on a site with reasonable people such as this is for the most part, then they should be given the courtesy to retort. But you sir @Sondis… If you had a blog it would be the opposite of a Klan site. You are a sick racist.

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  256. @kiwi
    re: Biff

    comparison of POC to foreigners

    Interestingly, he did the same thing to me after you called him out on it.

    Why do many (esp. white) people in the USA liken their associations with POC or visiting neighborhoods that are not white majority in the USA to traveling or immigrating to foreign countries? Followed by the suggestion that white people could have excluded them from the USA or driven them out like before, but now they are trying to include them?

    I almost threw up my breakfast.

    My white grandmother said stuff like that to me. As a child, and even when I was a young adult, she told me that I can never be regarded as American because of my racial background. She said that if I had kids with a white woman, and so did my kids’ kids, then my grandkids would have a chance to be considered more or less American. Then and only then.

    I am so glad I did not grow up in my Mom’s hometown. I would have been beaten up and killed.

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  257. @ jefe

    I noticed. biff dislikes stereotyping of whites yet he doesn’t hesitate to stereotype Asians as Perpetual Foreigners and Model Minorities. He thinks Asians should accept white racial domination because he thinks we are not “real” Americans, as if all Asians are immigrants and all whites are not. He also thinks Asians are “over”-represented at top universities despite acknowledging that quotas exist against Asians. First he says blacks should not complain of white privilege because Asians have it harder (university quotas), then he says Asians should not complain either because Asians have it easier (university “over”-representation). Whaaaaat? Then he complains that Asians make more money than whites but doesn’t mention that more % of Asians are educated and are paid less/promoted less for the same qualifications.

    He is not very different from many white people I know, even ones in my family. Even if they marry Asian women, travel to Asia, speak an Asian language, eat Asian foods, they still look down on Asians.

    We encountered another white male commenter on this blog who I refuse to address anymore. He is married to an Asian woman (one who looks down on Asian men, no less) and I noticed that he often adressed me with patronizing and disrespectful language. I wondered to myself if that was how he treated all Asian men. I also wondered why so many white people engage in Asian culture if they do not respect Asian people.

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  258. Right now on this blog, “racist” is the cheapest commodity on the market…its worth the price of a grade D turd…it just doesnt have any value…

    Whites calling blacks racist , without giving the minimum thought to why black Americans are concerned with racism that is on display in blatent ways all the time in the news

    Black people and white people and Asian people just calling a white person racist because they disagree with some opinions, and there are a lot of not very well thought out opinions running around here from all sides

    On this blog, the word has lost any kind of value or weight

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  259. @Kiwi,
    Yes, I noticed that Biff repeatedly stereotypes POC in the US as not quite American, or in the case of Asian-Americans, equivalent to foreign tourists or guests. The presumption that it is white people who decide whether other Americans should be allowed here, driven out, or whether to be included or not smacks of a lot of X&$%@* that I am not at liberty to type here. It is likely that I have ancestors in the USA before he does and I am not sure I should allow *HIM* to be included in American society. We may need to consider putting “his type” on a reservation or send them back to where they came from.

    I have also seen cases where whites marry Asians, and I think there are issues whether it is a WM/AW or AM/WW.
    In the case of a white man marrying an Asian woman, if they both look down on Asian people and culture and esp. diss Asian men, she will diss her own male relatives to please her husband. Then, what can we do about their sons who cannot pass as white? Both his parents look down on him. He will be full of internalized racism coming from society and both his parents.

    In the case of a white woman marrying an Asian man, I have seen exceedingly few cases where the wife actually respects her husband and does not look down on him and his cultural background. In my own family, that led to a disastrous relationship which ended in divorce. She learned that whites have certain privileges that non-whites don’t (and even took advantage of it too) but then she actually believed that whites are entitled to that privilege. That is where I draw the line. My father was not an angel either. He was in a trade that excluded all POC in the 60s-70s. His coworkers hazed him and he could not retaliate at work., so he came home and took it out on his wife. Their marriage was so messed up.

    My mother’s prior boss was a white woman married to a Filipino man. She dissed him constantly, dissed Filipinos and said very racist things about them in front of me and in front of him and in front of his children. She tried to get her Filipino looking children to condemn Filipinos and to identify as white. I told her that it was terrible that she would talk about her husband and Filipino people like that and teach that to her children. And you know what?
    – my mom supported what her boss said right to me then and there
    – her boss told me that I don’t misinformed and that I don’t come across as American – I act and think like a foreigner. My mother just sat there and concurred.

    Needless to say, that did not help my relationship with my mother. I asked her if she would bring that woman into her house again! But, then again, it was her boss, what to do????

    But I’ll be damned if I see any American, esp. white, rationalize their behavior and history in treating POC by likening it to how they expect to be treated if they travel to a foreign country or even to a US neighborhood that is not white majority. That is just so @#$^%@#$&!!!

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  260. Jefe and Kiwi:

    I don’t have the time to address everything you guys brought up, but you guys are putting words into my mouth.

    I’m NOT saying POC are not, or less, American. I’m just pointing out that they are ultimately “American” because Whites ultimately let them be (yes, I know it was not an easy road to get there, but Whites definitely had the power to shut people out completely or deny citizenship based on race if they wanted to.. might makes right is exercised by most civilizations). In Japan or Korea, POC (including people of the white or pink color) if not Japanese or Korean, respectively, would never become true Japanese or Koreans (maybe someday that will change, but not anyone in the near future).

    I am making a point that you think you can debunk by reframing and bringing up stuff I never mentioned, essentially calling me r@ci$t, saying but Arab slave trader, and writing a novel in the process.

    For China, they have minorities, and they bring them out to dance and dress up. I have NEVER heard anyone say “Han privilege” or something like that in China (I have spent many years there–so I’m not a novice in this area). Some kind of public essay on this in the PRC wouldn’t be tolerated. Instead, the gov’t just promotes fluff pieces talking about equality. They want to avoid conflict at all costs.

    Look, the U.S. is not perfect, and there is plenty of racism (whites do get some as well), but we bend over backwards to be inclusive (most of us individually and as a society, especially compared to other industrialized societies) and then we get “white privilege” talk rammed in our @$$.

    I am not saying Asians don’t face some discrimination in the U.S., just saying that I don’t really view them as victims in the present day. Right now, they do better on average, than a typical non-Jewish white, despite the so-called bamboo ceiling.

    Lastly, jefe, I’m sure you know this, but you clearly have some personal issues with your race. I hope my kids don’t have to go through that. I’ll do my best to teach them that they can be multilingual geniuses and succeed in either/both of their home countries or somewhere else if they so desire. I liked the fact that Dean Cain pulled off superman 20 years ago. The fact that a half-asian dude can convincingly portray the epitome of white masculinity says something to me. There are also half asian studs who are stars in Asia.

    Anyway, even if you believe “white privilege” exists, recognize that most whites don’t believe it in the same way (i.e., wouldn’t view the probability of less mistreatment as a “privilege” given to their race) and don’t care to hear about it. That’s it. This whole “stuff white people probably shouldn’t say” is evidence of white bashing (could have been stuff “people” shouldn’t say and included things that offend most non self-hating white people). Maybe you’d prefer to bash whites without having them present or respond?

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  261. @ Da Jokah

    awww look at the baby resorting to personal attacks because he can’t answer the question. Far as I know racism is a negative interactions so you should have had no problem providing the per capita information you claimed is available to prove that it is more likely to happen as such.

    ” You proved my point by assuming the latter. “—That would depends on if you have a point (which I don’t think you did). In the event that you want to continue to hold on to that idea that you proved a point…explain how asking a question is a negative interaction? It is only negative if you can’t answer it and now feel or even look stupid.

    So as far as this interaction I think it is safe to say I proved my point. I asked a simple question and you got a nasty attitude. :)

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  262. Or rather you just provided proof to the opposite of what you were trying to claim. :)

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  263. @ dave

    “It’s not polite to talk about people like they don’t exist.”—Hey common ground. Although I consider it childish more than anything.

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  264. @ Dave

    Even though on some things I agree with Adeen…I can say she can be pretty hostile at times, but she has her own view of things and I am not sure that anything you say will change it. Mainly because her experiences in life are different than yours.

    @ Da Jokah

    One last thing here…”And those negative interactions include everything from rape, murder, assault and stealing to plain old bad attitudes.”—Just think of it as me narrowing it down to make it easier for you to find that per capita information. I look forward to reading it.

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  265. Jefe:

    In the case of a white man marrying an Asian woman, if they both look down on Asian people and culture and esp. diss Asian men, she will diss her own male relatives to please her husband. Then, what can we do about their sons who cannot pass as white? Both his parents look down on him. He will be full of internalized racism coming from society and both his parents.

    Your characterizations here appear “binary” in nature. Must one either universally praise or look down on another culture? I suspect that most people take a more nuanced approach when considering other cultures and their mores, appreciating some aspects but disliking others.

    Also, you appear to be conflating “culture” and “race”. Even if one did “look down” on another culture in toto, that would not necessarily imply that those of the same race (but different culture) should share the same consideration.

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  266. Randy, I’m not sure you know how to read. Your interpretation is completely off.

    I said “if”.

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  267. Well im finding this latest dogfight well it definitely fails to qualify as entertaining due to the seriousness of the subject at hand but well to play the role lets with my on again off again that for whom i still maintain hope lets just say i endured an extended monologue during our latest experiential gathering in re hows about i want to be black so bad and so forth there wasnt much point to it as her style is truly ad hominem to the nth degree but i think there is some degree of expectation of external validarion on both dj and daves part, daves motives are less clear and dj well at least his appellation says something. I think dave has been on the periphery for some time because philly is a black town. If you dont know better ask someone. Unless its an organic keepin it 100 experience people jusr arent going to get it. White people that is. Me idk just google me on this site. G2G

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  268. @jefe,

    You are correct in that I misunderstood your comment.

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  269. @ Adeen

    …I don’t like the term , ”People of color” because it should only apply to us Black Americans and the term literally means that we are Europeans with dark skin….

    … People of color used to apply to all non Whites in AmeriKKKlan is wrong because not all non Whites are the same racial or ethnicity group. As a Black woman, I wouldn’t want to be lumped with all non White minorities in this country….

    Most of all, us Blacks are lumped together with other minority groups who can’t stand us, Hispanics and some Asians. Why would I want to be lumped with all non White minorities who live in AmeriKKKlan when many of them don’t even like my existence as a young, Black woman in a racist country.

    Firstly, time does does not not allow that I can follow or read this, or any other recent threads fully, so I’m sure I’ve missed some elements of the conversations on this subject. Secondly, you are speaking specifically of the American context, and I do not doubt the truth of what you (or Soulsearch) have said and know.

    That being so, was the term invented to replace any ethnic designation? I think not.
    Could it, instead, describe and politicize a shared experience , the experience of oppression and marginalization? Also, is there only one way of experiencing racism? I doubt if that is true even among black people.

    I have a question or 2 for you:
    What about solidarity? Or, is that non-existent and unimportant?
    And if solidarity and commitment is real and important, then couldn’t the therm POC, be a “practical” term and unifying one for that reason?

    I posted this video a little while back because it explains how the term Woman of Colour came into existence by one of the people who coined it, and what has happened to its meaning:

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82vl34mi4Iw)

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  270. Whilst skimming through this thread, I glimpsed the message which seems to say: it isn’t the words themselves, it’s the intention behind them.

    What “intention” doesn’t reflect is the systemic, institutionalized and sewn-into-the-fabric-of-society aspect of those word-meanings.

    This is a question of lived experience, and what goes on, not intention.

    Recently, I was looking at the work of white fashion photographer Nick Knight.
    What is hurting Nick Knight is the way he is not allowed to photograph black models because accordingly to white people who don’t think they are racist, blacks don’t reflect the aspirations of many brands. In Nick Knight’s book, this is how racism is normalized in his industry.

    What this causes, he believes, is that when black people are excluded, over and over, from the right to be seen as beautiful, this causes “deep cultural resentment, alienation and division”.
    http://www.femmeandfierce.com/2013/05/nick-knight-racism-fashion-and-film.html (Link includes his brief video on the subject)

    When I followed this up, there a number of other videos on this subject, particularly one of Naomi Campbell discussing the very same subject.
    This particular interview that follows sums up the incomprehension of many white people about the way structural racism works.
    It’s as if the white, male interviewer is talking about one subject (Naomi Campbell’s character, past and personal success — so, what has she to complain about!), and Ms Campbell is talking about something completely unrelated.

    Ms Campbell points to the way ACTS of excluding black and Asian models by the machinery of the industry….and the interviewer simply cannot see beyond his own privileged outlook, excludes himself from any part of the racism which he is a part of, and wishes to make it personal, a gripe that that Ms Cambpell has, perhaps…

    It’s clear example of how “intention” has little to do with it all. Her frustration is palpable.
    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxdatyeis1I)

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  271. Hey Bulanik!!

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  272. @Bulanik

    Yes I do believe in solidarity but only for Black people, We Black people need to unite and help fix the Black Community in AmeriKKKlan. And Black people who live outside of AmeriKKKlan need to stick together and unite against White supremacy as well. I believe in Black power and unity.

    Personally I don’t care about other non White races of people or their struggles because I know that they aren’t looking out for our best interests. They have the same racism just different issues. They are not on our side. Thus that is why I don’t like the term People of Color. Just because Latinos, Asians etc are marginalized doesn’t mean that they are on our side or should even be lumped with us.

    And I don’t find the term People of Color unifying in the least bit. Yes solidarity is important but I don’t want to unify with any ethnic group or race of people who doesn’t like me and all the other races and ethnicities hate Blacks anyways.

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  273. @Dave

    @Dave
    Sondis is not a racist. Black people can’t be racist because the oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor. It doesn’t go that way. And I have never read any comment that Sondis made that was racist. He is not a racist; he is clearly a conscious Black male who is racially aware of how AmeriKKKlan works.

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  274. Bulanik,

    “That being so, was the term invented to replace any ethnic designation? I think not.
    Could it, instead, describe and politicize a shared experience , the experience of oppression and marginalization? Also, is there only one way of experiencing racism? I doubt if that is true even among black people.”

    The experience isn’t shared. Hispanics and Asians are fighting to be seen as white. Anti-black racism is what makes this possible.
    Black people’s fight has to be against white supremacy.

    “I have a question or 2 for you:
    What about solidarity? Or, is that non-existent and unimportant?
    And if solidarity and commitment is real and important, then couldn’t the therm POC, be a “practical” term and unifying one for that reason?”

    I believe in solidarity, but it is solidarity based on beliefs and not race. I believe in solidarity between all anti-racists including white people. So no I don’t believe the term POC is practical for that reason because it excludes white anti-racists.

    However, they aren’t white, yet, so the term does have practical use as long as it isn’t used to imply solidarity between the groups.

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  275. Hispanics and Asians are fighting to be seen as white.

    Sorry, where does one get this idea from? Is it a personal belief? It might apply to some people, but it could even be argued that those particular blacks who are seeking integration with whites are also fighting to be seen as white. Yet Native Americans, many of whom are part white are not necessarily fighting to be seen as part white.

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  276. Jefe,

    The anti-black racism was a key part of that. A few black individuals (Allen West, Herman Cain) try(emphasis on try) to be seen as white by indulging in anti-black racism, but it isn’t the tactic of most black folks and I’m speaking generally as we tend to do on this blog. Plus, it doesn’t work.

    Although anti-black racism is common among Hispanics and Asians, the assimilation of those groups or any non-black group into whiteness is mostly facilitated by white people to strengthen white supremacy and neutralize threats to white power.

    For there to be white people there has to be black people.

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  277. @Solesearch,

    the assimilation of those groups or any non-black group into whiteness is mostly facilitated by white people to strengthen white supremacy and neutralize threats to white power.

    Thank you for rephrasing – I am not sure it is reasonable to paint all non-black non-white groups as fighting to be white, and that some of it is coming from white people, although I still don’t 100% agree with all of your assertions.

    For there to be white people there has to be black people.

    I disagree that there has to be black, just non-white. What is “white” in Hawaii or New Zealand or Singapore?

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  278. Jefe, I am talking about America, not New Zealand or Signapore, but I’d say white is still white in those countries. I could be wrong. However, I’m pretty sure it isnt black. Does anti-black racism not exist in those places?

    The acceptance of anti-black racism is what allows non-blacks to become white.

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  279. @ jefe

    It would seem biff expects a cookie for white anti-racism and now he’s bitter that he’s not getting it. I can already imagine a white American with immigrant parents telling everything biff just said to an eighth generation Asian-American. How IRONIC. As a Chinese-American, it is so strange that when I bring up anti-Asian American racism, some smartypants white person thinks he’s so clever by pointing out racism in Korea/Japan or some random ass Asian country I’ve never been to. If a white American complained about racism in the US and I pointed out how racist white Europeans are, people would think I’m being a complete bonehead. Why is that? But if an Asian-American complains and a white person points out racism in Asia, whites start applauding and cheering. Why?

    I suppose when his kids go to college, he will just tell them to mark their race as “white” and use their white last and first names. There is a reason we see so many half white/half Asian male stars in the media (America and Asia) as opposed to full blooded, Asian male stars. An Asian male is not good enough. He must be white, or at least part white, to qualify. I have mentioned on another thread where my aunt described a full Asian boy as ugly compared to his half-white brother. In Asia, women complimented my HAPA cousins for looking “so white”. Creeptastic.

    Like


  280. @ Solesearch

    Most Asians I know look down on blacks (myself included: still working on un-whitewashing myself) but I can guarantee you that Asians will never become white, despite the many who want to. White Hispanics, totally, but definitely not mestizos. I agree that world society is slanted against darker people in favor of lighter people, however, much of that has to do with white media, imperialism, and beauty ideals rather than anti-blackness as an ideology.

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  281. From what I know about anti-Maori racism in New Zealand it bears an uncanny resemblance to anti-black racism in the States.

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  282. @ Adeen

    Personally I don’t care about other non White races of people or their struggles because I know that they aren’t looking out for our best interests.

    The other day, in the Tainos thread we had a conversation, I explained about being Asian in Jamaica. Although most Jamaicans are of African-descent, not all Jamaicans are, as you know.
    My Indian (South Asian) family members, I told you, made a clear distinction to me at an early stage in my life about the use of the word “Indian” to describe the so-called Arawak “Indians”, remember that?
    They didn’t make that distinction between US and THEM because they didn’t like or care about the experience of the Taino. They didn’t “blame” the Taino for being called “Indians”, they weren’t angry at them or something. They didn’t think a Taino had no right to call themselves “an Indian” or whatever, because only a supposedly real Indian out of South Asia could do that! Not at all.
    It wasn’t a case of “we” should only care about ourselves, because Tainos never cared about “us”.

    — Should I care about the struggles of others, whether they be Chinese, which I am part, or Sephardi, which I am also part? Should I only have empathy and protective feelings for those folks that look like people who are my blood relatives?
    — Should I care about Coloureds in South Africa, for instance — people who are no part of my heritage, or say, a black transgender woman for that matter — someone I am not?
    — Perhaps I should have no compassion and extend no curiosity and feel no understanding for those kind of people. I mean, what have they done for me? Why should bother myself about people like Coloureds or transgender people because parts of their lives and struggles eerily and painfully feels like my own, the very same?

    Adeen, who and what you care about is your decision.
    But when you talk about “we” and “our”, who are you really talking to?

    My own feeling is that for anyone who wishes to write, and write seriously, like you do, I wonder if it helps you when you aim to close yourself down by imposing LIMITATIONS on your perspective.
    When anyone does that, the possibilities for learning about the world and the people in it become smaller and smaller…

    Like


  283. @ Jefe:

    I disagree that there has to be black, just non-white. What is “white” in Hawaii or New Zealand or Singapore..

    Agreed, it is not the black-white binary that rules the world, everywhere.

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  284. @ Sharina — hey there! :-D

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  285. @ Jefe, that binary doesn’t rule everywhere, but it is common template that is used again and again to act out forms of racism.

    Since you mention NZ…look even at an isolated place like Pitcairn Island in the Pacific Ocean. The place where the Mutiny on the Bounty happened. It’s the place populated by descendants of Fletcher Christian, his men and the Polynesian women of the region. It’s a place famous for isolation and more recently, a deep culture of rape.

    From the last book* I read on the subject, the use of the word “ni–er” was still evident, even though there were no, and have never been, black settlers on that island or ones near it. Even though the population of Pitcairn is characterized by emotional and genetic in-breeding since 1789, it seems the Islanders could still designate someone, or name them, as “Ni–er” even though the meaning had been lost along with the English- and Scotsmen who had originally brought the word (and the violence of it) with them centuries ago.
    It’s been a good 20 years or so since I read the book, but the impression I came away with is that the when the germ of imperialism is planted, you have to grasp at the roots to recognize the plant for what it is.

    *(The book was “Serpent in Paradise” by Dea Birkett.)

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  286. @Solesearch,

    I am talking about America, not New Zealand or Signapore

    OK, let’s focus on America, then, although Abagond also notes many parallels between the white Maori relationship in NZ and the white black relationship in the USA.

    Hawaii and Guam are very much part of the USA and USA culture, but I would not go as far as saying that being “white” is solely or even primarily a function of anti-black racism. I would say that anti-black racism is not the main element of being white in Alaska either, as well as San Francisco, and most of Arizona and New Mexico and parts of California and Nevada, and many other parts of the USA. It is a largely function of not being black in *some* parts of the USA, esp. in the SE and mid-South, and in northern and mid-western metropolitan areas. My experience with Alabama and Mississippi shows that “white” generally means “not black”, or “not colored” pre-60s. But it is not a universal experience in all or even most corners of US society.

    Kiwi chimed in to say many of his relatives and even himself have anti-black inclinations, but that does not mean they being “white” And Bulanik also rejects the white-black binary notion (however, she might not be looking at it from an American perspective), so you do realize that your black-white bifurcation of society is your own “world view” as it were.

    I do concur that pre-60s, the USA, at least the eastern 2/3 of it did see itself primarily in black-white terms. The western states (pre-60s) saw themselves more in white vs. (Native American) “Indians” and “Orientals” (Chinese / Japanese) terms, instead of white vs. black. Post-60s, we have a much more complicated ethnic mix, with blacks occupying more western areas also. The Republican party sees the USA in more black-white terms, perhaps partially due to the Southern strategy employed for many decades, which required that society viewpoint. They are still using it now as they are trying to get white hispanics to become white, and maybe even some Asians who have been educated with and work along side whites. But I wouldn’t go as far as saying that Asians and Latinos are trying to become white. That would be true only in a very limited, narrow perspective.

    Like


  287. @Kiwi

    some smartypants white person thinks he’s so clever by pointing out racism in Korea/Japan or some random ass Asian country

    Yep, that behavior is straight out of classical textbook white racist thinking, utilizing two distinctly racist rationales:
    – the perpetual foreigner stereotype (8th generation Americans are still foreigners)
    – the Arab trader argument (non-Americans or non-Europeans do something similar, so it couldn’t be that bad, or at least it is “normal” behavior).

    Indeed, we are not talking about how foreign countries treat foreign tourists and visitors, but how Americans treat their fellow native born Americans.

    There is a reason we see so many half white/half Asian male stars in the media (America and Asia) as opposed to full blooded, Asian male stars. An Asian male is not good enough. He must be white, or at least part white, to qualify.

    H-m-m-h. I agree to some extent that most white Americans feel more comfortable seeing mixed racial Asians as opposed to those who are primarily Asian (eg, even though Bruce Lee was partly of European descent, he was not seen as mixed by most whites). Another explanation might be that hapa / Eurasian people might also be able to portray someone who is ethnically ambiguous, or even Latino (eg, Lou Diamond Phillips) so they might have access to some roles that full Asians might not. But some multiracial Asians also make it in Asia first before coming back to the USA (eg, Maggie Q) and some just stayed in Asia (eg, Michael Wong, Russell Wong’s brother, or Kris Phillips (Fei Xiang)). Being part white doesn’t necessarily give one a free pass in America.

    But, I hope that you spend your energies to fight the ramifications of the harmful and inaccurate stereotypes (eg, Perpetual Foreigner or Model Minority) instead of giving into to some colourism attitudes that plague blacks to a significant extent.

    Regarding your comment to Solesearch, I think anyone can eventually become white through amalgamation. Mestizos and Hapas *might* feel that they can almost gain acceptance as more or less white if they marry into a white family. Their children might be able to identify as white. Biracial / multiracial blacks might also be able to become almost white esp. by marrying into white families. I have met people who have 1 black grandparent who function socially as white.

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  288. Jefe,

    “Hawaii and Guam are very much part of the USA and USA culture, but I would not go as far as saying that being “white” is solely or even primarily a function of anti-black racism. I would say that anti-black racism is not the main element of being white in Alaska either, as well as San Francisco, and most of Arizona and New Mexico and parts of California and Nevada, and many other parts of the USA. It is a largely function of not being black in *some* parts of the USA, esp. in the SE and mid-South, and in northern and mid-western metropolitan areas. My experience with Alabama and Mississippi shows that “white” generally means “not black”, or “not colored” pre-60s. But it is not a universal experience in all or even most corners of US society.”

    The catalyst for whiteness is anti-black racism. Whiteness was fully formed by the time it reached those places and time periods. It wasn’t created anew.

    You can’t exclude certain places in America from America. The power structure there is directly affected by mainland history and thinking. Anti-black racism is still a powerful unifying force. The only thing is that there are very few black people, so it is easy to write off. It’s like north vs the south when it comes to racism. The north claims they are less racist when all they really have is less black people and more segregation.

    We can even look at the phenomenon from a global perspective. European superiority requires African inferiority. White people go to extreme lengths to manufacture that inferiority.

    Like


  289. @Solesearch
    I agree with this:

    Anti-black racism is still a powerful unifying force.

    Yes, it is one of the factors that helped to make previously not exactly white people become white. It may enourage some Hispanics, Asians, even some blacks to somehow become white one day.

    I *almost* agree with this:
    “The catalyst for whiteness is anti-black racism. ”
    if you switch it to “One catalyst for whiteness is anti-black racism.”

    I don’t agree with these:
    * “You can’t exclude certain places in America from America. ”
    – Actually, I thought you were doing that and wanted to make sure you were not doing that. It is good that we agree NOT to do that.

    * “The north … all they really have is … more segregation”
    – The south is also very segregated. It is just that they have more blacks, in urban, suburban and rural areas, so the pockets of segregation are spread over a larger area. Places like Milwaukee have blacks segregated in a very small area and absent in most of the suburbs and all the rural hinterland.

    * “We can even look at the phenomenon from a global perspective. European superiority requires African inferiority.”
    – Yes, indeed we should look at it from a global perspective. Europeans invaded, established colonies, and trafficked humans over much area that did not involve that many Africans, including India, China, the Philippines, the west coast of the Americas, Australia, New Zealand and pacific islands, Greenland, etc. Indians and Chinese became so numerous in Malaysia and Singapore because the British imported them for labour. Even Mauritius, which is considered part of Africa, is not composed mostly of people originating from the African continent, but of Asian Indian descent, followed by French and Chinese. There are almost twice as many Hindus as Christians there even today.

    I would claim that well over half (yes, the majority) of the exercise of European superiority in the world did not involve Africans. So I would agree that it requires the inferiority of someone, but not necessarily always Africans.

    And in the specific case of the USA, would you feel that the genocide or removal of Native Americans and ethnic Chinese can be purely explained, or even mostly explained by anti-black racism? That would explain the internment of Japanese-Americans? From the 1860s to the 1940s black Africans (and black African descendant people) were allowed to immigrate to the USA and naturalize and become US citizens, where most Asians were not. Is that explained by anti-black racism?

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  290. jefe,

    “* “We can even look at the phenomenon from a global perspective. European superiority requires African inferiority.”
    – Yes, indeed we should look at it from a global perspective. Europeans invaded, established colonies, and trafficked humans over much area that did not involve that many Africans, including India, China, the Philippines, the west coast of the Americas, Australia, New Zealand and pacific islands, Greenland, etc. Indians and Chinese became so numerous in Malaysia and Singapore because the British imported them for labour. Even Mauritius, which is considered part of Africa, is not composed mostly of people originating from the African continent, but of Asian Indian descent, followed by French and Chinese. There are almost twice as many Hindus as Christians there even today.”

    You’re not looking at it globally. You’re looking at specific places that have very few black people individually. Your argument is basically look these non-black people experience racism too. I’m not arguing that non-blacks don’t experience racism. I’m saying that white supremacy as global force derives its identity, power, and legitimacy from black inferiority. It is founded on that premise. A permanent black underclass is necessary for its survival.

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  291. @ Jefe

    …Indians and Chinese became so numerous in Malaysia and Singapore because the British imported them for labour. Even Mauritius, which is considered part of Africa, is not composed mostly of people originating from the African continent, but of Asian Indian descent….

    … I would claim that well over half (yes, the majority) of the exercise of European superiority in the world did not involve Africans. So I would agree that it requires the inferiority of someone, but not necessarily always Africans…

    Like you, I do not believe that the (white racist) perception of those that are are “racially inferior” is legitimised only by “black” inferiority — that blacks are the necessary pretext to the racism of white European, or the racism that exists among the white, European Diaspora in the Americas, or elsewhere.

    Let us look, for example, at the biggest ethnic minority in the Europe, the Roma people, or the so-called Gypsies (who are people of India).

    There are about 11 million of them scattered mainly throughout Eastern Europe and the Balkans. They came originally from South Asia, and arrived in Europe about 1,500 years ago. They have been the object of attack, bitter hatred, and systematic slaughter throughout the centuries.
    Why? Because they were not Christians, because their social distance and “difference” is intolerable, because they never built what white Europeans considered “civilization”, because they were a convenient, readily identifiable “bacillus” outsider for social ills — and because the were considered as perpetual foreigner after more than a millenia, and are still seen this way.

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  292. @ Bulanick: You are a wise woman, with wise words.

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  293. @Solesearch

    You’re not looking at it globally.

    I am afraid that I am. When I am looking at America, I am looking at the whole of America. When I am looking at the world, I am including the whole world. The majority of the world’s exercise of white superiority was not on Africans. A lot of it certainly was and is based on relationships with Africans but in the whole scheme of things, it was not necessarily “most” of it.

    My call to you is to look at the world globally.

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  294. Jefe,

    “The majority of the world’s exercise of white superiority was not on Africans. A lot of it certainly was and is based on relationships with Africans but in the whole scheme of things, it was not necessarily “most” of it.”

    That is not my argument. We aren’t talking about the same thing. I’m talking about the creation of whiteness and how it derives its power and identity. What is necessary for its survival. Not which group white supremacy is exercised against the most. It is exercised against everyone at varying intensities. Who it is exercised against the most just depends on which group has the most people. But that is neither here nor there.

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  295. @Bulanik

    Well I sympathize about their struggles but I don’t necessarily care about them or their struggles. I am not one of them. And I don’t need to care about them. I only care about Black people.

    As a young, Jamaican, I consider myself a Black Nationalist thus my lack of caring for other races of people. I only care about bettering the condition of Black people. Not other races of people. I need to focus on myself and my race not other races.

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  296. @solesearch

    I’m talking about the creation of whiteness and how it derives its power and identity. What is necessary for its survival. Not which group white supremacy is exercised against the most.

    But that is EXACTLY what I am talking about.
    – the creation of whiteness
    – how it derives its power and identity
    – what is necessary for its survival
    NOT which group white supremacy is exercised against the most.

    So, are we indeed talking about the same thing?

    That is not my argument.

    Yes, I think the argument is different, but I thought we are talking about the same thing. I just happen to disagree with your argument, and so do many of the commenters on this blog. Even Abagond mentioned about white vs. Maori, and its parallels to white vs. black in the USA. But, it is not exactly white vs. black there. Maori are of Polynesian origin, not African origin.

    I was talking about the whole of America, and looking at it globally as well. Your argument was that whiteness is defined as opposite to blackness (if I understand your argument), ie, whiteness derives its identity, its power relationship as an opposition to blackness, and what keeps whiteness alive is that opposition to blackness.

    That is true in many places. It is true for many aspects of the USA even. I didn’t say that it was exactly wrong. However, It (whiteness) is not strictly defined that way, and definitely not defined that way in MOST of the world, eg, all of Asia, South America ex-Brazil, most of Europe, Oceania and Australasia, the Indian Ocean, etc.. It is not defined that way in Canada. It is not even strictly defined that way in the USA. Have you actually had the opportunity to examine whiteness (ie, its definition, its power source, its dependency for survival) around the world and even around the USA. If you had, you would not be defining it that way either. Your argument sounds like you have not encountered whiteness all around the USA or around the world yet.

    But, to a larger extent blackness in the US derives its definition, its identity, its power relationship, etc. as an opposition to whiteness. Not 100% so, but primarily so. If you made that argument, I would be more inclined to agree with you.

    So, I would say that, whiteness exists partially in opposition to blackness (but not universally or primarily so), but blackness exists primarily in opposition to whiteness, esp. in the USA.

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  297. @ Adeen

    Okay, I have not been reading the blog for awhile, but I had guessed you were a Black Nationalist from reading some of this thread.

    Could you clarify the distinction you draw between “sympathy” and “care”?
    You say you have sympathy but lack caring: this sounds contradictory. For anyone, that’s quite a significant emotional/intellectual standpoint to take.

    To my mind, when a black person in the US suffers from the racialized cruelties of white people and other non-white people in that nation, it is a huge ask to expect that black person to bridge a gap which was not of their own making, because anti-black racism is so deeply woven into the fabric of the US — racism IS the fabric.

    One has to survive the onslaught that racism exacts, choosing self and Blackness is but one logical and necessary option. It is one that I respect greatly, but note I say “one” and “option” because people’s thinking develops in sometimes surprising direction — and — not everyone follows and believes one thing all their lives.

    *

    Some while back, I read some of the writings of Audre Lorde and found what she said about people’s differences sobering. Personally — and at the time — I didn’t like all the talk about solidarity with this and that, and all the other stuff about lesbians. Oh my goodness, I thought, what did any of them and that have to do with me and mine?

    What Ms Lorde said that was differences between people served a creative function; that “…difference must be not merely tolerated, but seen as a fund of necessary polarities between which our creativity can spark like a dialectic…”

    I read that in a collection of her work called Sister Outsider, in an essay titled “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house”.
    Ms Lorde spoke about the differences between women, between people:

    Without community there is no liberation, only the most vulnerable and temporary armistice between an individual and her oppression. But community must not mean a shedding of our differences, nor the pathetic pretense that these differences do not exist….
    ….survival is not an academic skill. It is learning how to stand alone, unpopular and sometimes reviled, and how to make common cause with those others identified as outside the structures in order to define and seek a world in which we can all flourish. It is learning how to take our differences and make them strengths…For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us temporarily to beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change

    One link to that quote was from a black nationalist:
    http://www.anarchistpanther.net/writings/writing4.html
    Another is a full quote from the essay: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/pipermail/margins-to-centre/2006-March/000794.html

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  298. @ jefe, you summed it up this way:

    ..So, I would say that, whiteness exists partially in opposition to blackness (but not universally or primarily so), but blackness exists primarily in opposition to whiteness, esp. in the USA.

    (my emphasis in bold)

    Very well said.

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  299. Jefe,

    I don’t care if you, Bulanik, or Abagond don’t agree with me. It seems you need me to acknowledge that. I acknowledge it, but I do not care. If you have a compelling argument against what I said that is something I care about, but just stating you disagree…ok, whatever. Your opinion has been noted.

    Like


  300. I gave you very compelling arguments. I didn’t just state that I disagree. I have even more compelling arguments to support those already stated.

    Like


  301. Kiwi:

    “I suppose when his kids go to college, he will just tell them to mark their race as “white” and use their white last and first names.”

    No, I will tell them to mark their race as “black”. Matari had a brilliant idea in another thread:

    For those so-called white people who wish to dismantle racism; start with yourself. Give up your “white” club membership. Step out of it.

    For example:

    “Oh, you thought I was white? Yeah, I get that a lot! I know I look white but I’m actually _____ , I just look white, but I’m not really white! Blah, blah, yada, yada.”

    If a critical mass of so-called white people did this then whiteness and its other race based categories over time would dissolve/disappear. Why? Because enough people leaving WHITENESS behind would render whiteness obsolete.”

    I don’t think any of the university admissions officers at Harvard would be so rude as to challenge my kids on this. If so, they can explain that they are “transracial”. Let me explain this concept for those of you who are living in the past where race was based only on outward appearance.

    Someone who is self-identified as “transgender” immediately must be addressed by their new name and gender. To do otherwise is a terrible social injustice. If my kids wake up one day and decide they are black trapped in a hapa’s body, (perhaps the day when they will be filling out college entrance exams?) who is anyone to say they are wrong? Race is just a social construct anyway.

    But seriously, I’m not even sure I’d advise them to go to school in the States. Quality of living may well be better in their country of birth, and racial issues make the U.S. a sad divided place. It ain’t the same country I pledged allegiance to as a kid. My kids can get a much cheaper education free from politically correct indoctrination in their birth country.

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  302. any of the university admissions officers at Harvard would be so rude as to challenge my kids on this

    I have read many articles and have heard anecdotal evidence that university admissions officers do try to ascertain an applicant’s “race” in respect of their admissions policies. The anecdotal evidence I heard all unanimously agree that for two hapa applicants, one named, say, Edward Robinson and the 2nd named Edward Chan, the former should mark himself as Caucasian in order to give themselves a leg up on university admissions. However, they still try to determine if the person is white as they say they are (according to other information they gather).

    The 2nd one would have more trouble identifying as white on paper regarding how white they looked or how white they identified. They might need to consider changing their name.

    They have been wise to the idea since white people experimented marking themselves as “black” to get into to universities.

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  303. ” It ain’t the same country I pledged allegiance to as a kid. “—I am guessing it was much worse then?

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  304. People who are “hurt” by words are not considered human to me.

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  305. Hear that all those individuals that are crying over being called a racist. Jenny says your not human.

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  306. @Bulanik

    Your post was very well written and can you please tell me the difference between sympathy and actually caring. the only difference I see between sympathizing and caring is that if I cared, I would reach out to help these people. When I sympathize, I feel sorry for them but I don’t actually care to help.

    I don’t care about other non White cultures or races. I only care about Black people and their struggle against racism and White supremacy in the West and worldwide. I come on this blog to talk to other Black people about the issues that matter to me and other Black people.

    Yes do I face stereotypes from Whites and other non Blacks- Yes I do. But do I care about the issues other races face- Hell no!

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  307. “People who are “hurt” by words are not considered human to me.”

    ******* ******* ********

    I’m wondering if this is the same little JENNY who yelled out to her friend, “RUN FORREST! RUN!” when young Mr. Gump was besieged by rock throwing/name calling bullies?

    Jenny … is that you?

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  308. Matari, that reminds of that saying I read once:
    “..sticks and stones can break my bones but words can incite a whole society to act out murderous violence against me..”

    Like


  309. @ Jenny: Would you care to elaborate on your comment? Are you offended by this blog post?

    Like


  310. @ Adeen

    Yes do I face stereotypes from Whites and other non Blacks- Yes I do. But do I care about the issues other races face- Hell no!

    Some members of the African-descended part of my mother’s family were Garveyites, and it was the Garveyites — and others — on the island (and in the region) who were instrumental in the cultural development of black pride and black consciousness that came out of it.

    Would you describe yourself as a black separatist, and would you see that as a natural expression of Black Nationalism? Also, what are your views on black supremacy?

    I recall reading about the recent death of one well-known Garveyite:
    http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20130724/cleisure/cleisure3.html

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  311. @Bulanik

    Honestly I don’t believe in Black supremacy. No race is supreme to the other however I don’t like the way most Whites in AmeriKKKlan think their race is superior to other races. I would like to think there is good and bad in every race but in this country, the color of my skin determines that I am bad and White good. Honestly I don’t want to be like a White supremacist at all, I want to be for my Black people.

    Honestly I believe in Black separatism because I believe it is better for Black and White people to live apart. White people and Black people are polar opposites of each other and there has never been a time in history where Blacks and Whites got along and lived peacefully. Also White people hate Black people yet envy us at the same time. That is why integration doesn’t work; you don’t integrate with your enemies!

    Also Black people don’t need to rely on Whites and the government for economic support. We can economically support ourselves and form our own communities away from White people. We don’t need White people, White people need us more than we need them. Thus I believe we should make our own businesses in our own communities.

    Second of all, we need to instill Black pride in our youth and future Black generations too. We need to teach them about their history not the lies taught about us in school. They also need to be taught that Black is beautiful and that they should be proud of being Black. I am of the younger generation of Black people, Generation Y and all I see in my generation of Black people is self hatred, promoting colorism and loss of self worth. We really need to bring Black is Beautiful Movement back.

    Last but not least, I do believe in Blacks in AmeriKKKlan making an nation of their own apart from racist White AmeriKKKlan. I believe Black people can make it without Whites financially and economically because we are a strong, beautiful people.

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  312. @Bulanik

    As a Afro Caribbean of Jamaican descent, yes I do agree with many of Marcus Garvey;s ideas but I don’t agree with going back to Africa though.

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  313. Adeen,

    “We really need to bring Black is Beautiful Movement back.”

    *********

    Yes… and while bringing that back we should start a new movement also: *Black is Genius!*

    All we need to do is to ORGANIZE … form African Community Centers … everything else will take care of itself.

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  314. Kiwi:

    We encountered another white male commenter on this blog who I refuse to address anymore. He is married to an Asian woman (one who looks down on Asian men, no less) and I noticed that he often adressed me with patronizing and disrespectful language.

    If you wish someone to not respond to your comments, you should probably grant them the same courtesy.

    My wife does not “look down” on asian men in a racial sense, rather, she criticizes the aspects of her culture which foster chauvinism, such as the near consequence-free philandering by men.

    Biff:

    If my kids wake up one day and decide they are black trapped in a hapa’s body, (perhaps the day when they will be filling out college entrance exams?) who is anyone to say they are wrong? Race is just a social construct anyway.

    Funny! Surely someone will try that tactic, if they haven’t already. Seems like a humorous way to challenge double-standards.

    Like


  315. @Matari

    I agree with you on this one! We need to unite as a race people especially in these times. Blacks need to stick together and stop fighting among each other. We are better than that as a race of people.

    Like


  316. An Asian woman who would never marry an Asian man looks down on Asian men. It does not get any simpler than that. White men should probably stop saying sh** about Asian men when they need to clean up their own backyard. So much for challenging double standards.

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  317. @Randy, I don’t know your wife, but it really does sound like she does look down on Asian men and also has some internalized racism issues about her own ethnic background as well, even to the point of making up negative stereotypes about them and then believing them, finding every instance of confirmation bias that she can find to validate the stereotypes. She can deny it, and you can deny it all you want, but it looks so plainly obvious. And you pick up on those internalized racist stereotypes too.

    I saw it in my parents. My Dad did that. He selectively criticized aspects of “his culture” (including attitudes about women) and chose incidents to confirm this bias, yet was full of internalized racism about his whole ethnic background, My Mom even supported the thinking also. When I entered my teens, I couldn’t stand it any more. I told my parents to stop doing that and I would not be a part of that ridiculous behavior. By age 1314, I realized most whites would never really respect Asians, or treat them as full American, and many of the worst offenders are those whites who are actually married to Asians, Asians who often hold some degree of internalized racism to put up with such a marriage.

    Your case might be different from *THOSE*, but all of your arguments seem to support that interpretation of the situation. The fact that your wife says those things about Asians and “how her culture fosters male chauvinism” blah blah blah and you *support* or *acknowledge* what she says and thinks seems to confirm that the same thing is going on in your marriage.

    Look, my parents denied this all throughout their marriage. I have witnessed many other Asian / White couples deny it in their marriage. It took my father until his late 40s before he started to come around and not find every excuse to diss Asians that he could and selectively remember incidents to confirm his biases. I think I was a part of his turnaround, because I started denouncing that behavior and told him to stop doing that and I expressed no interest in seeking out white people who would confirm his internalized racism bias issues. I also starting to hang around white people a lot less. Finally my parents divorced, and by the time he got into his mid-50s, he reduced his self-loathing internalized racism as well as his anti-black racism that he would selectively display in front of whites. He even started to make friends with Asian women again. Then he got a stroke and died a few years later.

    I grew up in that situation, listening to the Asian parent dissing Asians left and right and the white parent acknowledging and validating it. I hightailed out of there as soon as I could. That is not a healthy atmosphere.

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  318. Jefe:

    I don’t know your wife, but it really does sound like she does look down on Asian men and also has some internalized racism issues about her own ethnic background as well, even to the point of making up negative stereotypes about them and then believing them, finding every instance of confirmation bias that she can find to validate the stereotypes.

    “Making up”?

    Are you suggesting that my wife didn’t observe, firsthand, how infidelity and domestic abuse impacted most of her friends’ families, and how a culture which does not permit divorce or effectively punish abusive men has enabled this to happen?

    There’s 3 major states to judging such claims: it did happen, it didn’t happen, or it couldn’t possibly have happened. You appear to be suggesting either #2 or #3.

    Number 2 is a bit insulting, since you have no factual grounds to dispute it. Number 3 is probably worse, since you’re making a blanket statement about a culture that you never personally experienced firsthand.

    Further, is it not possible that some cultures respect women more than others? In the interest of intellectual honesty, one should at least consider it a possibility. Would you not concede that women in, say, Belgium are treated with greater equality and respect than those in, say, Yemen?

    If it is a possibility, then whether it’s true or not would depend on a careful weighing of evidence.

    Here’s a data point for you. Go to the Philippines, open a newspaper, check the “Help Wanted” section. Observe job descriptions like the following:

    “Office manager needed. College graduate. Female, not over 30. Single with attractive appearance. Include picture.”

    Try posting that same ad in a US newspaper and let me know the results.

    Jefe:

    It took my father until his late 40s before he started to come around and not find every excuse to diss Asians that he could and selectively remember incidents to confirm his biases. I think I was a part of his turnaround, because I started denouncing that behavior and told him to stop doing that and I expressed no interest in seeking out white people who would confirm his internalized racism bias issues.

    Our situation sounds different from yours, which was undoubtedly difficult for you. My wife doesn’t “diss” anyone, including her (known to be philandering) family members, of which there are several.

    Jefe:

    I grew up in that situation, listening to the Asian parent dissing Asians left and right and the white parent acknowledging and validating it. I hightailed out of there as soon as I could. That is not a healthy atmosphere.

    I can understand why you’d feel that way. I would never want that kind of atmosphere for my own kids. On the other hand, I do feel that there are valid criticism that one can make about a culture that stays within the bounds of propriety. One shouldn’t have to throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.

    Like


  319. @Randy,

    Are you suggesting that my wife didn’t observe, firsthand, how infidelity and domestic abuse impacted most of her friends’ families, and how a culture which does not permit divorce or effectively punish abusive men has enabled this to happen?
    There’s 3 major states to judging such claims: it did happen, it didn’t happen, or it couldn’t possibly have happened. You appear to be suggesting either #2 or #3.

    No, I am willing to believe that your wife witnessed firsthand, or believed that she witnessed firsthand many of those things. However, even if she witnessed 20,30,50 cases (ie, it DID happen and falls under case #1) that she remembers, that does not make it any less of a stereotype. She noticed the cases that confirmed the stereotype and that is called confirmation bias. So yes, one must first make a stereotype before they cannot identify and choose the cases that confirm those beliefs. If you are talking about the Philippines, I also know first hand some of those kinds of incidents that take place there and even among Filipino Americans. Yet that does not make it any less a stereotype.

    I have witnessed all those things many times in the USA as well. Does it happen? Yes. Is it the sole truth? I am not sure – probably not. Indeed I might decide to formulate a stereotype and notice and acknowledge the incidents that confirm those beliefs. I admit my evidence is anecdotal, but so is your wife’s.

    I had very bad experience with white people in the USA, esp. some of those in my own family. I found the USA to be a very abusive violent society (in a bad way). Now, even if those bad things actually happened, those opinions I have about white people aren’t “facts”. In fact, they are stereotypes too. Maybe you have a stereotype that they are kind, gentle people. That is also not a fact, but a belief.

    Here’s a data point for you. Go to the Philippines, open a newspaper, check the “Help Wanted” section. Observe job descriptions like the following:

    Philippines is not the only place like that. I saw that in Hong Kong just 14 years ago until they passed the sex discrimination ordinance. I do CSR work and go to different countries around Asia auditing companies for things like discrimination. Even the USA was like that just a few decades ago.

    you’re making a blanket statement about a culture that you never personally experienced firsthand.

    If you are talking about the Philippines and / or Filipino Americans, that is a culture that I have had extensive first hand contact with. My godmother (ninang) is Filipino American. Since my parents passed away, her family has become my de facto extended family. She married a Filipino man for her first marriage and an Italian-American for her second marriage. My father’s aunt migrated to the Philippines and my father has cousins there. I lived with Filipinos for many years in New York in a neighborhood with a large percentage of Filipinos and participated in a Filipino cultural ensemble in New York, putting on plays and performances. I even learned Tagalog. I go to the Philippines several times each year and will go to a wedding there in a few weeks. I have traveled all the way from Luzon to Cebu to Mindanao to Palawan. It is a place and people I have had intimate contact with since childhood and one I have read and studied about also.

    I have some stereotypes about the Philippines. Not all of them are positive. One of the things I don’t like is the corruption and cronyism. Another are the frustrating attitudes of “Bahala Na” and “Utang na loob”. I accept things are not perfect there but I still find some wonderful things about the Philippines as well.

    Your wife evidently says and thinks a lot of negative things about Asian men. It sounds like she associates race with culture, so dissing the culture means dissing the race. It also sounds like she thinks white is better. I see nothing in your argument that dispels that. And it sounds like her opinions have rubbed off on you (or you support or validate them somehow). I don’t think that is a good thing.

    Randy, you make a lot of assumptions and have tons of stereotypes you treat as truth. Please be careful when you project that on others. I am not asking for a ban on communication yet. Not yet . . . . .

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  320. Jefe:

    However, even if she witnessed 20,30,50 cases (ie, it DID happen and falls under case #1) that she remembers, that does not make it any less of a stereotype.

    I don’t understand the power that the term “stereotype” has over so many people. It’s like a magic word that once invoked, suddenly creates a moral barrier against noticing patterns.

    Allow me to offer an ad absurdium example: “Detroit isn’t a dangerous city. Even if you were mugged 20, 30, 50 times, that doesn’t make it any less of a stereotype.”.

    Surely there’s some culturally-permissibility for noticing patterns and offering critiques even if such patterns don’t present 100% of the time.

    Jefe:

    If you are talking about the Philippines, I also know first hand some of those kinds of incidents that take place there and even among Filipino Americans. Yet that does not make it any less a stereotype.

    That also doesn’t make it inherently false, either. Denying politically-inconvenient observations does not seem to be a rational decision.

    Jefe:

    I accept things are not perfect there but I still find some wonderful things about the Philippines as well.

    I agree. At the risk of incurring wrath from invoking another stereotype (albeit a positive one), I’ll say that I find the people to be warm and generous.

    Jefe:

    Your wife evidently says and thinks a lot of negative things about Asian men. It sounds like she associates race with culture, so dissing the culture means dissing the race.

    I’m not sure where you’re drawing the dividing line between race and culture here. I haven’t heard any comments from her about “race”. The criticism is about chauvinistic aspects of the culture and the tendencies of men raised in it.

    Jefe:

    I am not asking for a ban on communication yet. Not yet . . . . .

    Threats are unbecoming. Participate in discussion if you find value in it. Refrain if you don’t.

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  321. @ jefe

    I have an Asian aunt who is like that. She disses Asian men in front of her own son when she talks to her white husband. She is rude to people sometimes, but I noticed she is especially rude when she talks to Asian men, including me. But the more problematic thing I noticed is that when she does that, her husband just smiles and says nothing, as if he can’t help gobbling up his white privilege, thinking he is better than Asian men. This has had a serious impact on their son’s self-esteem. If anything, there are stuff white people probably SHOULD say, like in the case I described. Instead of “accepting” my aunt’s commentary on Asian men’s ugliness being the reason why she would never marry one, her husband should have said something to challenge that stereotype. Not for her sake, but for their son’s sake. Unfortunately, the majority of white men (as far as I can tell) think they are better than Asian men. This is why they apply such petty stereotypes on us (small penis, short, ugly, feminine, nerdy, misogynist, asexual)

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  322. OK, Randy :P :P :P

    “Detroit isn’t a dangerous city. Even if you were mugged 20, 30, 50 times, that doesn’t make it any less of a stereotype.”

    If it was one or a few people saying that based on anecdotal evidence, it would be a stereotype, or at best, personal experience. There has got to be other forms of information to confirm what is going on. IT is possible for every 20 muggings, there are 20,000 people who visit Detroit without encountering assault. If one forms a belief that Detroit is dangerous, and gets mugged there, that will be the confirmation bias.
    Now we do have other information about Detroit. Its tax base eroded and they cannot afford police services and municipal services that would contribute to public security and crime prevention. That and a host of other factors makes one believe that Detroit might not be as safe, but it does not mean that all Detroit residents are muggers.

    But, that is not the mere extent of what your wife is doing. She is doing something like what a black person who was born and raised in Detroit saying “Detroit is a horrible place. You will get mugged if you go there. People who grew up in Detroit are all muggers (or in Pinoy talk “hold-upper” :P). I do not want me or my family to be associated with anyone from Detroit.” And then she marries a white person from London, Ontario and disses anyone with origins in Detroit with full support and empathy from her husband. Her kids learn to look down or even hate her relatives and family who still live there. They are taught to look at themselves as white Canadians in London, Ontario and not related to those black thugs in Detroit. But the other kids “know” they are related to those black thugs in Detroit.

    I assume you are talking about the Philippines. I do know that it is somewhat common for men to marry young, then “philander” – there is somewhat less social stigma in doing so there. I do know many Filipinos and Filipino families with half-brothers and half-sisters because their Dad had kids from several different women, kids that they cannot afford to have. They also take the “Wives, please submit to your husbands” line in the Bible somewhat literally, and since, until last year, contraceptive services were banned by both the Catholic Church and the Government and abortion is illegal, the birth rate is many times higher than “Western” countries.
    Men in America philander and spend their money on women other than their wives. The main difference is that there is less social stigma or taboos against divorce. Contraceptives are actually promoted in society and are widely available. Abortion is legal and widely practised. There is less social stigma in the USA having births out of wedlock. I suppose an “unenlightened” (sarcastic) Filipino might rally against how the USA glorifies divorce, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, etc.

    The problem is when this is extended to saying there is a problem with Filipino men, and they are <>. Also, I suspect that Filipino men in the USA might conform more closely to the USA norm, rather than the one perceived to exist in the Philippines.

    The point I would like to make is one that was just made by one unnamed person, namely, it would be better if you spoke up about that and ask her NOT to diss the Philippines like that, and esp. not diss Filipino men, esp. in front of the children. She can express opinions about social norms which she interprets to be more prevalent in Philippine society, but at no point should she be allowed to say or act out that “white is better, Filipinos, esp. men are dogs” while you sit quietly enjoying your white privilege and have your kids endure internalized racism. There should be some signs (eg, if your wife is hoping her kids will be more accepted as white, or if she wears her husband’s name like a badge).

    The problem is, you will not challenge the stereotype as you think it is the truth also. You actually validate it.

    You said your case is different from the one I grew up with, but it looks eerily similar to me.

    I wish I could have forbade my father from doing those things when I was growing up. I wish my mother did not sit there with her daily reinforcement of white privilege which she gobbled up from my father. When I got old enough, I did tell them both I would not tolerate it. But the strength I got to do that came from outside my family and parents.

    As I mentioned, my parents’ strategy backfired. It ended in divorce.

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  323. “” was meant to replace a derogatory remark or slur.

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  324. Jefe:

    IT is possible for every 20 muggings, there are 20,000 people who visit Detroit without encountering assault. If one forms a belief that Detroit is dangerous, and gets mugged there, that will be the confirmation bias.

    Technically true. However, that doesn’t imply that the perception of Detroit being dangerous, or more precisely, that it’s more dangerous than London, Ontario is false.

    In fact, in this case, the “stereotype” *is* actually true. Detroit is more dangerous than London, Ontario. You could hardly fault a person who grew up in Detroit for wanting to move to Ontario to settle down and raise a family.

    Jefe:

    But, that is not the mere extent of what your wife is doing. She is doing something like what a black person who was born and raised in Detroit saying “Detroit is a horrible place. You will get mugged if you go there. People who grew up in Detroit are all muggers (or in Pinoy talk “hold-upper” :P ). I do not want me or my family to be associated with anyone from Detroit.”

    You’re incorrect in that assertion. Most of my wife’s friends are Filipino. Our kids play together and nobody is ever “dissed”. In fact, I never observe discord of any kind.

    Jefe:

    I do know that it is somewhat common for men to marry young, then “philander” – there is somewhat less social stigma in doing so there. I do know many Filipinos and Filipino families with half-brothers and half-sisters because their Dad had kids from several different women, kids that they cannot afford to have. They also take the “Wives, please submit to your husbands” line in the Bible somewhat literally, and since, until last year, contraceptive services were banned by both the Catholic Church and the Government…

    When you put it like that, what’s there for a gal not to love? ;)

    Add to this a huge economically-deprived underclass creating a great supply of young women for whom an even slightly-generous boyfriend can provide much needed resources for her family.

    For an educated and successful woman who expects to be treated as an equal in a faithful relationship, you might say it’s like the romantic equivalent of Detroit. The odds seem better in London, Ontario. Is there “crime” in London, Ontario? Sure, but the rate is much less than in Detroit. Selecting London over Detroit seems like a rational choice.

    Jefe:

    The point I would like to make is one that was just made by one unnamed person, namely, it would be better if you spoke up about that and ask her NOT to diss the Philippines like that, and esp. not diss Filipino men, esp. in front of the children.

    My wife doesn’t “diss” anyone in front of the kids. The sexual politics of the Philippines is an adult topic, and as they’re children, it never comes up.

    Perhaps this is where your experience and ours differs. It sounds like you had a rough time as a kid. I’d never want my own children to have go feel similarly marginalized or stigmatized.

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  325. OK Randy,

    She will not have to diss in front of the kids. They will pick it up. Just like they will not have to be taught the concept of “white privilege”. They will pick up on it and then try to evaluate how much they have or do not have.

    I am asking if you might consider asking your wife to simply note that the social norm in the Philippines seems to tolerate a higher degree of male philandering with less social consequences than what seems to be the norm in parts of the USA and leave it at that. Don’t diss Filipino men even behind the kids’ backs and outside of their ear reach. They will still learn the attitude because it is being expressed every day. And even if your wife thinks it is nothing racial, that is probably not what is being communicated. After all, she did not look for a Filipino man who is not like that — she went and found a white man who will listen silently and supportingly to her dissing. She made it a racial thing without even realizing it.

    My Godmother first married a Filipino man and it did not work out. She later went and married a non-Filipino European-American. Her daughters from her first marriage also picked up this contempt from their mother and never dated Filipino men. Theirs is the family I visit when I go back to my hometown since my parents have passed away. Many of my father’s buddies were Filipino-American men — the men I saw when I was growing up. You previously accused me of making statements about a culture I have never experienced firsthand, but actually I have been studying and experiencing it all my life. Kiwi was right that you do address people with patronizing and disrespectful language.

    I remember in a prior post you expressed that it was “normal” to assume that Asian-Americans are foreigners since many of them are immigrants, despite the fact that there are also significant numbers in their 6th and 7th generation and besides, first generation citizens are not foreigners either. Even if you do not teach them this, they will pick it up from you and then have to evaluate what it means for them. You might end up creating a marginalizing situation without intending it. (For example, you might indirectly teach your kids that it is OK to go up and ask an Asian-American where they are from and not accept New Jersey or Texas as the answer. What will they think when people come up and ask THEM the question and not accept their answer?)
    Imagine a black woman dissing black men to her white husband (even not in front of the kids) and when her son enters his mid-late teens he gets profiled as a young black man (even by only some people, ie, authority figures like teachers and the police) — What is he supposed to think?

    In fact, I think that is what the list Abagond put forward above is largely about. Many of them are / were used by whites to marginalize and stigmatize. It is better not to use them. Likewise it is better not to diss POC men or women even outside of the kids’ earshot (regardless of who does it). It is better not to teach them to assume that Asian-Americans are foreigners. etc. etc.

    I am sure my parents felt the same way you do. They felt they didn’t do anything to make it rough. They didn’t even realize what they did to tick the other off and they would insist that it wasn’t about race. My parents also gave me the wrong advice. You already told me that I make remarks about things I know nothing about, but I actually have studied the subject intensely for decades.

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  326. “black genius”..Im with you Matari…and Afro diasporic genius , and the specific dynamics involved with its dissmisal, burying and destruction , demands to be dealt with on its specific needs , that will be lost lumping Afro diasporic people and their struggle, with “POC” from around the world, that includes brown people who did as much damage to the Afro diaspora as the Atlantic slave trade (absolutly spare me the “Arab trader ” argument, Ive been carded twice about it , unfairly so, so, I totaly dont beleive in it)..

    Take the women’s movement, Afro diasporic woman’s cultural needs will be totaly lost and buried ..the woman’s movement does not address the very real cultural discriminations and obstacles the Afrro descendants have to face, because the cultural racism is underneath most of the dissmisal, burying and destroying…the beauty industry can take any phrase like “doesnt fit the standards of beauty we are looking for..”…and dissmiss black beauty

    IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH INTENT…you can change the phrases to new words, but intent trumps politicising words and phrases everytime

    And, I guarentee you , the Chinese, the Arabs, the Jews, the Indians, the Native Americans etc etc , nothing in their narrative or political agendas, can truly address the real problems and obsticles Afro diasporic cultures face and have been facing….based on the very specific dynamics that are a part of the cultural racism (which doesnt mean individuals from these groups cant speak about “Afro diasporic genius)…in Brazil. you will find Native South Americans in heated protests with industrialists who want to build dams around their lands…their problems and specific dynamics would get lost lumping them in with Afro Brasilians and their personal struggle, which, as quotas and public service anouncements try to politicise how to deal with racism , Afro diasporic culture is getting buried and destroyed at every step of the political progress…Its only going to come up empty somewhere down the line..something will be missing…cultural identification and cultural pride

    But to fully combat this cultural racism and the dissmisal , burying and destroying, people have to learn about Afro diasporic cultures and their histories and struggles, because that is the story of racism against the Afro diaspora

    If people understand the history of black American culture, they could see that it was cultural racism , judging the clothes Martin was wearing, a cultural expresion of black hip hop culture, that was the inevitable reason Zimmerman decided “Martin was a thug”, they would know their were parralels to that in the “Zoot suit Wars”, which Malcolm X came out of, by the way..which were riots that would erupt as white racists battled black and brown Zoot suiters

    Zoot suits were the style of clothing that represented the black American cultural movement , “BeBop”, absolutly one of Americas highest leval of music expresions ever

    Understanding the struggles and histories of Afro diasporic cultures is key to really getting what their struggle was really about..and, its discovering what black Afro diasporic genius is all about;;;which is also why some people, like the Nigerian profeessor used SSA to identify exactly the origins of Igbo words

    When SSA is used to identify the origins of the genius of Afro diasporic culture, the intent is meant to be very positive

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  327. This is why I keep bringing up the black Civil Rights political agendas towards Armstrong and tap dancing…which no one can address…these political agendas did great damage rolling over Afro diasporic cultures, jazz and tap dancing;;;if people cant answer these questions, how can I trust agendas on interracial sex and politicising words?

    There are people on here who just roll over Afro Brazilian dance cultures because of bare booty or pelvic hip thrusts..with absolutly no respect for the reality of the struggle of these cultures and the racism the practitioners of these cultures, especialy the passistas os samba face…with absolutly no ability to tie in the histories of these Afro diasporic cultures , and the very similar dynamics in their struggles and obstacles that were overcome from being dissmissed, buried and destroyed, to go on to be actual fundimental building blocks of the cultures they evolved in

    So, its “politicise versus intent” with these words..not that you cant cross both of them sometimes…but, I have my eyes on intent…that is what Im following…not to please anyone on here, Im looking out for my family..I have big reasons to follow intent…and I have big reasons to not trust political agendas

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  328. Jefe:

    I am asking if you might consider asking your wife to simply note that the social norm in the Philippines seems to tolerate a higher degree of male philandering with less social consequences than what seems to be the norm in parts of the USA and leave it at that. Don’t diss Filipino men even behind the kids’ backs and outside of their ear reach.

    That’s pretty much my wife’s attitude. She believes, correctly in my opinion, that men are universally promiscuous and will chase women to the extent they’re able, bounded only social and legal limits. If anything, this perspective is fundamentally “non-racist”.

    Now if only I could get Asian people to stop commenting on my kids’ skin color…

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  329. Jefe, Ill tell you something Im having a problem with your logic about black Americans joining POC around the world to fight white Western wrong doing to POC…

    You go into great detail about the things America did to Asian people , you have intricate facts and figures and dates all put together..

    Yet, in my lifetime, the overwhelming worst thing , in my opinion, to happen to humanity then, meaning after World War 2, was the Red Chinese Cultural Revolution, killing something like 20 million people, along with mao implimenting the marxist “back to the feilds” beaurocratic tactics that ended up starving 30 million people…of course , you could make the point that marxism is Western thought

    Im just not getting that america was the absolute worst place for someone of color to be, and sorry, these fables about “dont blame Johnny for stealing cookies when you do it..” dont cut it for putting things in some kind of perspective as to the kind of deaths racked up by other tyranies in my lifetime, its like why are we spending huge amounts of time talking about only american hemmoroids when everyone else has them and some smell worse…I think mao’s China during the cultural revolution was probably the worse place a person could be if they were of Chinese background…

    And Im really thrown by a statement you have implied in the past ,something like “black Americans have weak culture”…? did I hear you correctly? or can you clarify?

    This kind of statement makes me think, like lots of others on here that you cant really define black American culture or its history…which is exactly the reason i think black Americans shouldnt lose sight of their culture and how white racism against black Americans manifests very often in dissmissing, burying and destroying that culture…and alighning with a larger POC against white racism, wont really address black Afro diasporic interests in the best way possible

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  330. @ jefe

    Why is it that every single time an Asian-American talks about white racism, some white person (even one who has an Asian partner) feels he’s so original and clever by pointing out some random disaster in Asia that has nothing to do with race? In fact, why is it important for a white person to point out a person of color’s supposed “country of origin” every time said POC talks about white racism?

    Wouldn’t it be more direct if they just said “If you don’t like it here, then go back to China/Mexico/Africa!” like the bigoted whites do?

    Frank Chin, a Chinese-American was once asked if Japan had affirmative action when he spoke in favor of it. Obviously, if a Chinese-American doesn’t like it here, he can just go back to Japan. DURRR

    When white people assume that America is a white country and tell minorities that they should “go back where they came from” when the minority talks about racism, I always ask myself where Native Americans who don’t like it here should go. When whites become a minority, I wonder how eager they would be to go back to Europe if they complain about racism.

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  331. all the time crazy mean stuff pop in my head it is a effin battle with myself! and that’s how white people think when noone’s around idk about you didn’t ask not real importan

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  332. thanks to you i know who i be and continue the eternal search for decorum

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  333. WTF are you talking about Kiwi…the Red cultural revolution referance is a direct confrontation to the constant notion that America is the worst country in the world at treating its people…and against POC unite against all white people because they did the worst stuff in all history

    Because that is the flow coming from you and Jefe…we put America under the microscope and go through every nook and crany about the faults in American cold war policy, but no peep of the elephant sitting in the room at that time of what happened in China under Mao

    please spare me the “oh johnny put his hands in the cookie jar and is blaming fred who did itg too” those fables dont translate into complex international politics

    and take your paranoia “what does it have to do with racism , he is suggesting i should go back from where i came from” and shove it where you can put your disgruntled stare at me if you see me with an Asian women, it has nothing to do with mypoint

    You and Jefes pointing out of the racism and the real Asian history in America is extremly welcome, and I like when Jefe sais it is “our history” I agree with that

    i just am calling you on your constant flow with no perspective , and you got personal issues with white males with Asian women and are lacing that in with your valuable insights into racism against Asians in America

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  334. Hey V8… did you try Imperial yet?

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  335. i dont know what that means

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  336. if by that you mean pizza no i had some in new brunswick nj i had to drop miss yvonne i left pa for a unspecified time i am not pleased but it was a pleasent pizza experience tonight

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  337. The things on the list that are obviously racist are all common sense. But mentioning these

    Caucasian
    different (cultural) background
    exotic
    inner city
    oversensitive
    personal preference

    just makes you look silly and OVERSENSITIVE.

    Seriously.

    Caucasian – used out of force of habit, zero offense is usually intended
    different background – some people actually do have a different background
    exotic – often used to describe something quite different to the area, very often totally neutral or complimentary
    inner city – Earth to Abagond, large cities have a center or core and these are synonyms for “inner”, sorry if this makes you ouchie via connotation, it is just geometry, maybe you really should get over it
    oversensitive – some people actually are being oversensitive, and it is icronic (sic) that you would have this on yourlist
    personal preference – again people do have personal preferences

    So, you don’t like some of the former PC language, and now you’d like to swap it for your own.

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  338. Your problem , Kiwi , is you take the valid points you make about racism against Asians in America, and start stereyotyping the Asians who interact with white people , whether women who go with white men, or , people who want to make it in the system, and generalise white behavior

    You think you can psychoanalyse them

    I have a problem with “psychoanalysis” period…if I thought it had value, I would be consulting those people, I am skeptical of psychoanalysis

    Second, there is a lot of pseudo psychoanalysis going on here…biting off Freud /Fannon…you are just biting off of a political agenda from the late 60’s black cCivil Rights movement…an agenda I have been confrontging on here and I think is flawed…not that some people might have issues you refer to

    But, are you, or anyone else on here a clinical psychologist? A profesional? An expert in the feild? A feild Im skepticle of in the first place…

    What gives you the authority to pseudo psychoanalyse people with a flawed agenda ? Ive asked big questions about these agendas and their origins , no one else will answer them, would you care to try?

    As long as Ive got you looking over my shoulder and being disgruntled if I date an Asian women, I hardly trust what you have to say

    I like a lot of stuff Jefe sais, but ,in his “studies and researsh” I found two errors about Brazil, a place I know about, so, I could point it out. So, things Im not as informed about, I have to take what he sais with a grain of salt

    And, his statement about black American culture really is strange to me, and either I dont get it, or he really doesnt know black American culture, and I dont think you do either, and that is why Im skepticle about the “POC unite against white people…they are the evilest on the planet”

    Because this doesnt really look after the cultural interests of my wife and son, who are Afro descendants..their needs will get blurred in a vast agenda that wont address their obstacles

    I am an immigrant, for 28 years, arrived with a suitcase and no contacts, I fight for every centimeter I get…when we visit the States, who gives us stares, my son notes better than me, is from black peoplke…because I avoid white racist places , so we see the stu pid stares from white racists less….when my wife and son went shopping , they went into an Asian owned store and were followed and ordered to “BUY!”or “YOU BUY”, right out of a scene from a Wayons movie..dont give me that “they learned it from whites”

    Let me tell you, everyone coming from the south to the USA arrives with their biases , prejudices and bigotries in tact from the hiarcial racial divisions of where they came from…Same with Europeans and even north in Canada, they dont have American racists imported to teach them racism.

    Yeah, when people get to America , they learn to do it the American way, but, people already have their biases before they get there

    The real truth is, black Americans, and people who arrive, and generations of immigrants , learn how to play the system…they learn to play it well

    Is it just? or fair? No , but its a system that someone can get somewhere in spite of white racism or white privilege…millions and millions of people play this system that wasnt set up for them by the founding fathers…and that is why in the face of scrutinising one system, for its one “ism” , its good to keep in perspective that in my lifetime aftewr World War two , another system based on an “ism” absolutly eliminated or destroyed in beaurocratic “isms”, about 50 million people…in a very short period of time

    Now , I dont atribute those deaths to Asian people…the people in charge just happened to be Asian…I consider it the human condition

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  339. @Kiwi,

    I know what you are saying. It goes something like this:

    Calling out racism: White person asking a non-white person what country they are from, how long they have been “here”, how do they like it “here” in “their” country, etc. etc. etc. and not accepting the reply that they are from New Jersey, are American, etc.
    Clever white commenter: Well, what would you expect if I went to Japan?
    My comment: We are talking about how Americans treat other Americans, not how Japanese in Japan treat foreign tourists.
    Stereotype / broken record being appliedPerpetual foreigner.

    Calling out racism: Hundreds of thousands of ethnic Chinese were rounded up and expulsed or exterminated in the USA, peaking in the 1880s-1890s. The largest public lynching ever in the US history was against ethnic Chinese in Los Angeles in 1871. In the 1870s, the state with the largest ethnic Chinese population was Idaho; over 99% of them were removed or killed off. From the 1880s-1940s, the USA practiced ethnic cleansing of its Asian populations. This is not mentioned in our history textbooks.
    Clever white commenter: Well, did that really happen? I don’t believe it. Anyhow, that does not compare to the atrocities that Japan committed in their neighboring countries during WWII, or to the millions of deaths in China during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution social campaigns.
    My comment: Again, we are talking about how Americans treat people in the USA. It is horrible that other countries have committed atrocities also, but how does that excuse what was done in the USA? Why should we have to compare “what was worse”? It is a derailment and a failed moral argument.
    Stereotype / broken record being applied “Whitewashed US history” / “Africans sold their own people as slaves”/ “The Arab trader argument”
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/09/22/africans-sold-their-own-people-as-slaves/
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/the-arab-trader-argument/

    Abagond mentioned how people use that argument to excuse the Japanese-American Internment camps. He calls those arguments what they are – utterly shameless. I have relatives that fled China during the Cultural Revolution to escape persecution. Is knowing that supposed to make me feel better what happened to my great-grandfather that was lynched by a white mob in Oregon?

    It is funny that some of these morally bankrupt commenters think that they have a pass because they marry non-white / POC. I remember that one sports commentator who made belittling remarks about Jeremy Lin who retorted that he is not racist because he is married to an Asian. :P

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  340. @qwerty

    exotic – often used to describe something quite different to the area, very often totally neutral or complimentary
    inner city – Earth to Abagond, large cities have a center or core and these are synonyms for “inner”, sorry if this makes you ouchie via connotation, it is just geometry, maybe you really should get over it

    Admittedly, Abagond felt words like “Caucasian” just made him feel uncomfortable, but he does not begrudge people if they want to use the term to refer to themselves.

    However, “exotic” is not one of those words. If you are born and raised in a place, it is your home and it is where you are from. You would not be “something quite different to the area”. Being subjected to the label “exotic” is anything but neutral or complimentary. It is telling people that they are different, not like “us”, at best “strange” or 2-dimensional, but more likely it means something like “you do not belong here”. It is not a positive statement.

    If you notice the media uses the term, “Inner city” is not just a geographical term. If refers to that part of the city that white people do not go to, or do not live, or is otherwise low income. If white people live there, the term “inner city” is normally not used. It is referred to urban living, centrally located, near downtown, gentrified, bohemian, etc. anything but inner city to avoid the connotation associated with it.

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  341. @Kiwi

    When whites become a minority, I wonder how eager they would be to go back to Europe if they complain about racism.

    I suppose we can look at South Africa as an example. I think about 15% of white South Africans have emigrated post-apartheid.

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  342. jefe,

    The post just pointed to the word “exotic” in general. It did not speak of applying it to people specifically. It is as if I should tell my local pet store to remove the term from their name because of negative connotations.

    Regarding the use of inner city, I agree, it was a “nice” term invented for poor urban areas where minorities tend to predominate. Do these places exist? Okay, then what should we call them exactly? Call them “poor urban areas where minorities predominate in population number”? Either, you don’t think we need a word for a thing that you must (unless insane) admit exists enough that it needs a referrant or you’d like us to use another word or a long string of text. If you succumb to reality and want a new word, let’s say, then in 5 years it will have all these negative connotations and need switched out again at your behest. Should I call it a “poor black neighborhood”, or is that generalizing because not 100% of the occupants fit those labels? I suppose we should just not recognize that two different poor neighborhoods with different racial demographics may actually differ in a way that is worth noting.

    How about this? Get over relatively small things that matter 0. Sure, framing…blah, blah….zeitgeist or whatever….blah blah.

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  343. Jefe, you are a guy who made errors in your statements about Brazil, how can I just trust anyting you bring in as suposed study and research…nothing to do with your history of asian persacution, but your general tone and flow as though other perspectives of the world dont matter…they do..its all relative

    Ive told you I dont agree with every opinion Abagond writes about, including the Arab Trader argument

    No, fuk that, I dont need to hide behind my POC wife, you just dont really understand her cultural needs and opressions…I better look out for her and my sons best interests, because you dont know how to

    How Americans treat Americans? and Im talking about how Chinese treated Chinese…the “isms” were just differant

    See , I dont buy the cookie jar fable …for me its more like its not normal tospend too much time only examining American hemmoroids when so many other countries have just as nasty stank hemmoroids

    How many times have I heard on here “only in America”, when it just isnt true..and you got Brazil @ss backwards, so , its obvious you arnt on the money in your international observations

    your statement about black american culture wa strange also, and I dont need to hide behind my wife to see that, do you mind explaining that again?

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  344. @qwerty

    The post just pointed to the word “exotic” in general. It did not speak of applying it to people specifically.

    Come now, is that what you really believe?

    The title of the post is “Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say” and then the explanation why “exotic” may seem odd or offensive is because it “normalizes whiteness”. It specifically refers (in the context of this post) to the usage by (primarily) whites to normalize whiteness (and thereby making everything else as different or not exactly normal). “Whiteness” would have to refer specifically to people (or things associated with people, such as culture, identity, behavior, etc.), not to pets, flowers, fruits, cars, insects, fish, etc. Making whiteness normal and everything else not could not be applied to dog breeds or spices. It is like the word “Oriental” when it is applied to rugs, carpet or even furniture, as opposed to people (or language or food or religion or culture or other people related phenomena).

    So, yes indeed, the post was referring to applying it specifically to people or to people related phenomenon (ie, things that “whiteness” could refer to), and in that context, it is not neutral or complimentary.

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  345. Jefe:

    Clever white commenter: Well, what would you expect if I went to Japan?
    My comment: We are talking about how Americans treat other Americans, not how Japanese in Japan treat foreign tourists.

    The moral criticism which you’re laying out appears to be directed at the proclivities of humanity in general, and not particularly towards one group.

    Ultimately, you’re calling society to an higher aspirational morality, to reach beyond the norm. I support that goal, though it’s a different claim than suggesting that a moral deficiency is at work.

    Perhaps you might consider amending your argument to be more precise in that regard.

    Jefe:

    If you are born and raised in a place, it is your home and it is where you are from. You would not be “something quite different to the area”.

    Pandas are generally considered “exotic” in NYC though they may be born at the Bronx Zoo. A Chinese person born in Senegal might be considered exotic by other Senegalese though they’re a native.

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  346. @ qwerty

    Jefe is right in his understanding of the post.

    If inner city were mere geometry, then gentrified neighbourhoods would still be “inner city”. Except no one calls them that – once the Starbuck opens.

    “Inner city”, at least in the American Northeast, is code for Scary Black Neighbourhoods. Or maybe just poor black neighbourhoods – which is what I generally call them.

    Caucasians – I have changed my opinion on that since whites have the right to call themselves what they want.

    oversensitive and exotic – stand by them. Yes, I mainly meant exotic as applied to people.

    This post offers my opinion on these words. I do not expect you to agree. Just know that others might not see these words the same way you do. What you and Jefe said about “exotic” is a good example. What you mean by “exotic” is clearly not what he hears.

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  347. Fruit Roll-ups are not an ethnic term. As well, no people own any term. Period.

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  348. I would like to reply specifically to the concept “I don’t like the way most Whites in AmeriKKKlan think their race is superior to other races” since I have not seen it addressed and it seems to permeate this comment board.

    I would like to tell you that MOST whites don’t think about our race at all. We don’t feel a special kinship with other whites or animosity towards non-whites. It is part of our white privilege.

    I have seen people in comments adknowledge the concept of white privilege in terms of unequal treatment but some aspects of it are being ignored. It took me a while to adknowledge my own privilege; I am korean and puerto rican in addition to irish but i just came out white and didn’t want to accept my “boring white guy” status. I now see the fact that I can not care about race, and even toy with the idea of “embracing my Korean heritage” while not actually being treated as a Korean person, as the biggest example of my privelege.

    Please stop thinking that MOST white people are racists who are out to get you for not being white. In reality we don’t care because we don’t have to. Go ahead and fight white privilege, it’s bull anyone needs to worry about what race they are, but don’t just approach all white people like they’re white supremacists with a vested interest in keeping other races down.

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  349. @actiongold

    While there are some aspects of your post I could agree on, the biggest issue is you really don’t know what all whites or most whites do any more than they persons comment you responded to. Being white and being every white person are two different things. You sharing their skin color does not afford you the ability to share their thoughts and feelings.

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  350. Some of the word you listed are actually terms that we should use. Notably sub-Saharan Africa, Ghetto, and Caucasian. Caucasian denotes an actually ethnic group of people who immigrated to Europe during the Roman era from the Caucasus mountains; so European who are not German or Slavic are Caucasian. Ghetto can still be used to in a non-racist sense, when talking about historical ghettos like Jewish areas in Europe. I don’t know why sub-Saharan is on this list; it is a geo-political term that actually reduced racism. To not clarify that the Muslim Arab regions of Africa is different from the Black Christian sub-Saharan regions is actual racism. To denote this division is not.

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  351. @ Lola — oh no! Lol! Are you joking?

    Where did you get all that information from?

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  352. Not a joke, I don’t think that it would be a very funny. I would have difficult naming a singular source for my information, but I remember the term Caucasian from reading a history on Rome during Celtic migrations, and the terms ghetto and sub-Saharan are both widely used by the UN. I cannot tell your intonation by the text, but I hope that provides some validation.

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  353. Lola, I thought you might be joking because of the way you mixed up history and definitions, and also misunderstood the reasoning of the post.
    I’m not sure where to begin, and there are many points that could be answered.

    For example: do you think the term Caucasian existed in Roman times?
    You speak of “Caucasian” as an ethnicity. It is not.

    Am I also interested to know how the United Nations became the gatekeeper of sound, unbiased language. Do you believe because something is considered “geo-political” it is automatically authoritative and neutral, and thus, can’t be racist?

    Then, when you talk about “Arab” regions of North Africa, I hope you realize a great many of the peoples in that region are Imazighen, and not Arabs, as another for instance.

    Abagond has written articles about many of these subjects:
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/caucasian/
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/01/14/sub-saharan-africa/

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  354. White people are the most judgmental and condescending human species I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. And excuse me? White people gave birth to racism through colonialism & they continue to have that mind-set.

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  355. oh look,
    a whole forum full with racist black people…

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  356. @Bernard I agree with you. I never enslaved or segregated any blacks. They shouldn’t blames all whites. After all. I don’t blame all Englishmen for the Occupation of Ireland.

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  357. @Bernard and Bobby

    Sad that the two B’s can’t read. Where on this blog did it say all whites? Nevermind, this type of behavior is usually not far from lacking the ability to comprehend either so.

    “I don’t blame all Englishmen for the Occupation of Ireland.”—So I guess you are now abandoning your original concept?

    @Bobby

    Most people leave and return more knowledgeable. You left and returned more ignorant. SMH

    Like


  358. Oh and I forgot to mention something @Bernard (you might want to read it too bobby). Don’t be foolish enough to make the mistake in believing that this blog is only full of black people. You then miss out on the commentary from white commenters, European commenters, mixed race commenters, Asian commenters, Indian commenters, and hispanic commenters. Then you look stupid in your assumptions. You also need not feel comfortable in your stupidity because of the idea of Anonymity.

    Like


  359. oh look,
    a whole forum full with racist black people…

    Aren’t we just the cutest little things? Clown.

    Like


  360. After all. I don’t blame all Englishmen for the Occupation of Ireland.

    Maybe you should. Show some b@lls for once!

    Like


  361. It is not our fault that you suck at inventing words and names.

    Like


  362. Now whites are neglected. In canada white women are not being hired and have to live in rooms while nonwhites come and get free houses on my ancestors dime. They also bring alot of racism and gangs to my country.

    Like


  363. ^^So nobody gets jobs in Canada? They just pass out either rooms or houses, depending on race?

    Like


  364. on Mon 17 Feb 2014 at 17:53:21 Ralph goodale

    So if white people have to properly pronounce other languages so as to not be racist, does that mean its racist when people who have a different first language are being racist when they speak with an accet? Cause I generally don’t correct Spanish speakers for example when they speak like I do but in glad to know I now can as they are being racist ;). Racism isn’t a white monopoly that concept is itself inherently racist. As Morgan freeman says if you want to get over racism don’t talk about ( I don’t mean don’t talk about hate crimes I mean white people is what they is ) so unless they can correct or criticise your culture and accent and word choice you should probably get off there’s. I have almost never heard a white person call a black person a nigger but as a pale Native American who speaks with a regular canadian accent I get called a cracker every time I go to the United States. I am not a cracker.

    Like


  365. biff said:

    I’m NOT saying POC are not, or less, American.

    In Japan or Korea, …

    For China,…

    It’s ironic how he says he’s not comparing POC to foreigners, then proceeds to bring up China, Japan, and Korea. That’s the Pereptual Foreigner stereotype. Only whites are “real” Americans. Every time an Asian American talks about racism, he goes, “WAAH! But in Asia…”

    biff said:

    I liked the fact that Dean Cain pulled off superman 20 years ago. The fact that a half-asian dude can convincingly portray the epitome of white masculinity says something to me. There are also half asian studs who are stars in Asia.

    Randy said:

    One can only speculate whom you blame for the treatment of mixed-race singer Lou Jing.

    Randy and biff are both white men married to Asian women. Randy wants to fault Asians for the mistreatment of mixed blacks in Asia whereas biff is happy that mixed whites easily become stars in Asia. The hypocrisy is delicious. They benefit from white privilege in Asia but turn around and criticize Asians who bend backwards to kiss up to them.

    I said:

    I suppose when his kids go to college, he will just tell them to mark their race as “white” and use their white last and first names.

    biff responded:

    No, I will tell them to mark their race as “black”.

    biff wants his kids to identify as black but would never marry a black woman. White men are 2-3 times as likely to marry Asian women than black women, yet there are 2-3 times as many black women as opposed to Asian women. More white male hypocrisy, no surprise.

    The lessons we can draw from this is that white men who marry Asian women are very racist. They like Asian women and tofu but don’t give a damn about Asian men or Asians in general. They just like marrying racist Asian women who are obsessed with white men and stroke their precious egos. My two white uncles are like them. They like Asian women and food but don’t respect Asians. Most white male/Asian female couples are very racist. Let’s hope they all deserve each other.

    Like


  366. First let me say that I enjoyed the article. As a white man, I personally find it patronizing and condescending when someone of a different skin color than mine tells me what I cannot say because I am white. This article may contain much truth to it, but at the same time if you feel that you have more knowledge about race relations than anyone else, then you are sorely mistaken. The white people of today are not the intensely racist white people of yesterday. White people today are actually very self-conscious of being called a racist, and they do want to improve their image. On the other hand, white people have not been the victims of systematic racism on a scale that members of other races have. So, white people can, and I am guilty of it also from time to time, act insensitively or offensive without even knowing it. As a follow up to this article, I believe that the author should create a “Ten Things Black People Probably Shouldn’t Say” post, for the purposes of fairness. As a white man married to a black woman, I do know that there was a lot of offensive speech that black people have said about our relationship either to our faces, or behind our backs. I also know firsthand that black people can say things directly to a white person’s face that are blatantly offensive, and hurts the feelings of that white person.

    Like


  367. what I cannot say because I am white

    That is not what the article is about. It is entitled “Stuff White People probably shouldn’t say”

    There is a gulf of difference between the two. You can say whatever you want, as long as it is not illegal (eg, perjury under oath). Yes, you can. Nobody said you couldn’t.

    But, there are consequences to everything we do, even stuff that is legal and commonly practiced in society. It does not mean that it doesn’t sound like fingernails on a chalkboard to certain people. The point of the post was that, not telling anyone what they can or cannot say. From whence was that gleaned?

    White people today are actually very self-conscious of being called a racist

    Yes, today it is akin to telling them that they made a pact with the Devil. That is why they shifted to a form of “colour-blind racism”. It does not mean that they gave up racism like someone gives up smoking. So much of the current society infrastructure in the USA is dependent on continuation of things like white privilege and the exercise of racism. It is not going away anytime soon as long as people deny that it is there. Being self-conscious about it and trying to deny it does not make it disappear. Someone who is self-conscious about being called a fatty and denies that they are fat does not hide the fact that they are.

    Racism is so endemic to US society that everyone is pretty much racist. Only by admitting it can we actually do something about it.

    Like


  368. Dear White People: Film Tackles Racial Stereotypes on Campus & Being a “Black Face in a White Space” Part 1:

    (http://youtu.be/_KAbb54SuKU)

    Part 2:

    (http://youtu.be/wCfeXUyYH4I)

    Like


  369. George Ryder:

    I don’t tip if i don’t get good service. The hell with what racist white people think about black people, not tipping.

    I won’t reward a racist white person with a good tip for their lack of service to me, a black man and for being a racist!

    Like


  370. George Ryder:

    Are you white or black?

    Like


  371. George Ryder:

    Just out of curiosity, nothing more.

    Like


  372. “[…] if you feel that you have more knowledge about race relations than anyone else, then you are sorely mistaken.”
    _ _ _

    If you feel that you have more knowledge about racism than the average Black person living in the US, then you are sorely mistaken.

    Like


  373. @ Thomas McDaniel

    First paragraph:

    “Here are some things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on. Maybe it is just me. Commenters can offer their own opinions and examples.”

    Am I telling what you cannot say? No. Am I telling you what things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on to me? Yes. Do I understand that it might just be me? Yes. That is why you should read the comments, which should give you far more perspective any one person can.

    I am not in a good position to write “Ten Things Black People Probably Shouldn’t Say”. You apparently have a much better idea of what those things are. The main thing on my list would be the N-word.

    Like


  374. @ Thomas McDaniel

    I agree with Pay it Forward. In my experience White Americans are extremely poor judges of racism and race relations.

    Like


  375. @abagond I could say the same thing about black people, who have called friends of mine things that are just as racist. In my experience, there’s no correlation between what race you are and how much of an asshole you are. I’ve met black racists, white racists, and yellow racists. Saying otherwise is racist in and of itself.

    Like


  376. To GAYLORD, George Ryder and all other ignorant people ….

    The following should be in the Broken Record Dept, but since it’s not, I’ll repeat the truth here.

    African Americans cannot be called “racists,” or race realists, because they do not have the ability to deny anyone “the dignity, opportunities, freedoms, and rewards that this nation offers white Americans”

    When, or if, black people begin chaining, shipping, enslaving, selling, lynching, raping, oppressing, exploiting, shooting, jailing, whipping, maiming, torturing, evangelizing, robbing, stereotyping, bullying, bombing, segregating, building highways and thruways to dislocate/dismantle businesses, communities and neighborhoods; creating SUN-DOWN towns, experimenting on, discriminating against, prohibiting, murdering, holding back/controlling in every imaginable way, HATING WHITE PEOPLE en mass via de jure and de facto racism for HUNDREDS of years, then and only then can calling black people racists make sense.

    Unless America’s historical and traditional scripts are flipped, the ONLY people who can possibly ever qualify as racists, and “fight their own (natural) inclination towards it,” are WHITE people.

    Otherwise, the word “racist” – “makes NO SENSE!”

    Like


  377. The title of the page is “Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say.” I interpret the title to mean that you do describe what a white person should not say. It may be phrased in a rather polite way. However, if you did want to put the point across about what white people say that is offensive, insensitive, ignorant, etc… then you would have titled the page something rather like: “The stuff white people say that is racist, ignorant, offensive, etc…” When someone gives a page a title like “Stuff… should not…” then they are getting the point across that they do not want a group of people to say, do, act, etc… in a certain way, and therefore are implying that they are telling a group of people what to do.

    Like


  378. Concerning “Pay It Forward’s” comment about my first comment. I never said or claimed that I have any more knowledge about racism than anyone else. My comment would refute me even making such claims. I was stating that because nobody has an objectified view of race relations outside of their own subjective experiences, then nobody can tell a person what to say just because the subject and the object of the sentence are a part of two different racial classifications. Also, a 13 year old calling another 13 year old of a different racial, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic, religious, or any other group an offensive slur should not be considered racism, since racism is a systematic attempt by either the state, or the elite, to disenfranchise and discriminate a certain group that they have deemed as inferior. So, being called a racial slur when you were 13 from another 13 year old is not racism. Being denied a job, or being fired from a job because of your race is racism.

    Like


  379. Thomas McDaniel

    ” in a certain way, and therefore are implying that they are telling a group of people what to do.”—-I guess that depends on how you look at it. For example People probably shouldn’t have unprotected sex but does that translate to me telling them what to do or giving my advice or opinion on what they shouldn’t do?

    Like


  380. If find it kind of odd and a bit dishonest that you Thomas McDaniel are intent of getting all wrapped up the title of the article (something that is meant to draw readers!) and not the actual content, content that makes it clear as day what the writer meant. Which is, anybody can say practically anything, but that doesn’t mean they won’t look like an arsehole for saying certain things.

    Like


  381. intent on*
    wrapped up in*

    ugh!

    Like


  382. And hate to break it to you but a racial slur is just another form of racism. While racism can be and is systematic it is not the only form it takes. Racial slurs are used to degrade a person and particular make them feel less than. Racism is the belief in superiority and inferiority based on race. I mean sure everyone has their definitions but I will go with this one. If you find need to call someone a racial slur are you not calling them one to insert your superiority?

    Like


  383. @Gen

    No worries. I understood you in full.

    Like


  384. Yes it does. Since you are saying that they probably should not be doing something, you are still telling them what to do or what not to do. You are just stating it in a rather polite fashion. You do not have to explicitly tell someone not to do something to make it a command. You can make an implicit command by commenting on the merits or demerits of a subject. If you did not care to tell someone what to do, think, act, or feel, then you would not have commented on a subject in the first place.

    Like


  385. Thomas McDaniel, give it up.

    If a person says, you probably should not wear that necktie, then it’s obviously a suggestion or opinion. The word “probably” means that the verdict is not absolute. If a person wants to express a command they do say “probably”

    Honey you probably should’t sleep with my roommate!
    Kids, you probably shouldn’t drink my vodka while I’m at work!
    You probably can’t take my brand new car on a joy ride!

    PROBABLY is never a command.

    Like


  386. Concerning the title of the page. The page is supposed to be a kind of mini-introduction to a paper. Otherwise, one could write a paper with a title that has nothing to do with the content of the paper. Secondly, there are two words that are normally confused. They are racism, and prejudice. Racism has to do with systematic policies from those in power. Prejudice is more of a personal calculation of the worth of another person based upon their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc… And usually that calculation is negative. Essentially, when those people who are in power practice prejudice, then they are practicing racism. However, when someone, like an unemployed person, practices prejudice, then it is solely prejudice, and not racism. This is because the unemployed person is not in a position of power to deny what another person deserves.

    Like


  387. @ Thomas McDaniel

    “I was stating that because nobody has an objectified view of race relations outside of their own subjective experiences, then nobody can tell a person what to say just because the subject and the object of the sentence are a part of two different racial classifications. “

    Not sure what you mean here, but just to be clear, I am completely within my rights to say what I find offensive because that is a subjective experience that affects me.

    For example, Blacks do not like Whites calling them the N-word. In a case like that, it is not up to Whites to determine whether or not it is offensive. If Blacks say it is offensive, then it is offensive. Period. It should not even be a matter of debate whether Whites should be allowed to say it to Blacks. The only reason SOME Whites see it as debatable is because they do not feel bound by common courtesy when it comes to Black people. Because they are racist jerks. Racist here means they think they are better than others because of their colour.

    Like


  388. @Thomas McDaniel

    And again it goes back to how you perceive it. If someone told me that i “probably” should not do something I personally am not all up in arms on the idea that they are trying to tell me what to do. I take that as advice or some form of constructive criticism and move on because it then becomes my choice if I will take it in or ignore it. In cases like this it usually is a person trying to point out what they find offensive and that you may want to avoid saying. For example you probably shouldn’t compare all Italians to people on Jersey shore. You shouldn’t but will that stop a person from doing it?

    “If you did not care to tell someone what to do, think, act, or feel, then you would not have commented on a subject in the first place.”—-While you are hung up on a title, you are missing the part where he did not once tell white people they could not do any of those things. In fact I am going to quote from the post itself “Here are some things White Americans say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on.” So what now? Are upset that the title is not to your liking?

    Like


  389. @Thomas McDaniel

    If you want to argue the definitions of racism and prejudice then you would first need to attack the individuals here. As per this definition Racism is

    a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others; a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination; hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

    Prejudice is defined as

    an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason; any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable; unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice?s=t

    Of course you are free to twist the definition as you see fit but it won’t change the definition of it one bit.

    Like


  390. Indeed, Thomas McDaniel seems a bit confused over simple English sentences.

    Suppose a woman wrote:

    Title: Stuff Men Probably Shouldn’t Say

    “Here are some things Men say that seem odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on. Maybe it is just me. Commenters can offer their own opinions and examples.”

    Examples:
    6. You look pregnant.

    –> Should a man be offended and up and arms that a woman might suggest to him what he should not be saying to women? Can he say the woman is being sexist for even “suggesting” what makes her feel uncomfortable?

    Can he say it? Of course. Does it make certain listeners uncomfortable? Yeah. Should he continue or stop? Up to him.

    Should he yell and scream at the woman for making the suggestion? I guess, but it makes HIM look weird and rather sexist.

    Like


  391. Jefe, I am trying to keep this academic. I interpret “Indeed, Thomas McDaniel seems a bit confused over simple English sentences” as patronizing. Therefore, I will not comment on your post any further. For the others, say for example I posted a page called “Stuff black people probably should not say.” If you self-identify as black, then how would you feel about me posting such a page? Would you find it condescending? Better yet, what if the title was “Stuff black people should not say?” I took out the “probably.” Would there be any differences?

    Sharina, dictionary definitions are not set in stone. The definition of words are made by a committee that usually oversees the dictionary in question. There are connotative definitions for words that do not appear in the dictionary. These definitions define the de facto meaning of a word, and not just the de jure definition. Thus, I am not just “twisting” the definitions of words.

    Lastly, when a person states that another person should not do something, then they are making a moral judgment call about the other’s actions. The judgement call would rather that the other person not commit the action. As far as explicit commands are concerned, just because you command someone to do something, that does not mean that they will quit their actions. Therefore, it seems that the difference between explicit and implicit commands are their intensity.

    Like


  392. Thomas McDaniel, you said:

    As a follow up to this article, I believe that the author should create a “Ten Things Black People Probably Shouldn’t Say” post, for the purposes of fairness. As a white man married to a black woman, I do know that there was a lot of offensive speech that black people have said about our relationship either to our faces, or behind our backs. I also know firsthand that black people can say things directly to a white person’s face that are blatantly offensive, and hurts the feelings of that white person.

    I’m going to be upfront with this. I’m lost on how white people expect fairness in a topic about race when white people have never been fair to POC since say one. Yet, they expect US to be fair to them.

    Since you seem honest about your thoughts, I’m won’t come off hard. However, I won’t hold back when I think how we’re expected to highlight the faults of blacks whenever we discuss white people’s behavior. The problem is that when black people are the subject in the mainstream, their problems are turned into pathologies, a built-in fault due to their black skin. Whether it’s violence, out-of-wedlock childbirths or even yelling, they are seen as “black problems”. And when we argue and explain how that’s offensive, we are told, in so many words, to shut up because its true as if all of us engage in that.

    The top may seem a bit off-topic to what you’ve said, but I guess what I’m saying is that so-called “black pathologies” are mostly the subject of the day everywhere you turn, more so than other diverse images. So, there’s no need for another article to discuss what black people shouldn’t do. Somewhere, someone has or will make that a topic.

    Like


  393. @Thomas McD,

    My last comment was not directed to you at all (but to the other commenters), so I don’t know why you should find it patronizing. However, this post IS directed towards you.

    say for example I posted a page called “Stuff black people probably should not say.” If you self-identify as black, then how would you feel about me posting such a page? Would you find it condescending?

    I don’t self-identify as black, but I certainly have absolutely NO problem whatsoever with you doing a post with any of the following titles:

    “Stuff black people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Asian people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Latino people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Brazilian people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff multi-racial people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Native American people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Pacific Islander people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Australian Aborigine people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff Chinese people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff gay people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff straight people probably should not say.”
    “Stuff CEO’s probably should not say.”
    “Stuff newspaper reporters probably should not say.”
    “Stuff little league baseball coaches probably should not say.”
    “Stuff fashion models probably should not say.”
    “Stuff wife beaters probably should not say.”
    etc. ETC.

    And no, I wouldn’t find any of it condescending because I know it is strictly your opinion about what you feel uncomfortable with. If anything, I would welcome sharing your opinion – in fact, that might be a good way to get a dialogue going.

    However, if you are starting to blast people about expressing types of behavior that they feel uncomfortable with, and find it personally condescending (for who knows what reason), there seems to be something psychological going through your mind that seems to compel to defend the sanctity of whatever group you are identifying with. It’s weird and borderline pathological.

    Like


  394. always tip your local service provider! it’s only right and if it’s not we’ll ask for it

    Like


  395. @ McDaniel

    For the others, say for example I posted a page called “Stuff black people probably should not say.” If you self-identify as black, then how would you feel about me posting such a page? Would you find it condescending? Better yet, what if the title was “Stuff black people should not say?” I took out the “probably.” Would there be any differences?

    Right, you’re trying to keep things academic. That’s part of your problem. I know you think your point above is so on the mark, don’t you? Your point is not an apples to apples comparison, you think it is, or you know that it isn’t but believe others will still think it is a fair comparison, so you use it anyway. If whites had a page titled [your alternate title] it would rightly be seen as very likely racist given white history with regard to race relations. So the brown viewer would make a reasonable determination based on context: historical and present day context.

    Similarly, if you see the title to this page, then reasonably informed context should work it’s way into the assessment of whether the page is racist or not, even before going into the content as Gen spoke about. What is some of the obvious historical context of black activity in race relations?

    Answer: DEFENSIVE!!!!!!!

    So, a reasonable person, trying to think about reasonable context, in his assessment of a blog title by a black person or an utterance by a black person that seems, at the surface, a little grinding, a little off putting, MUST think about where that black person is likely to be coming from, at least partially coming from; in the case of blacks and all minorities (sorry all, I know that word is gross and probably recently outdated) the defensive context must be taken into account.

    But McDaniel you are like a lot of whites. You want to be “academic”. You want to pass off your false and cooked comparisons as apples to apples when they are not fair comparisons at all, for the reasons I gave above. And why do you want to do this? My guess is that you really believe your view because you haven’t thought it through from other angles, like the one I presented above, or others. Or, you know you are making unfair oversimplifications but you want to run a con anyway. I’m just speculating because I’m not in your head but what I do know for sure is that you’re little academic comparison is wrong. Have false premise, will make false conclusions.
    —————————————————————————————-

    Notes for the critical reader:

    Here are a few fallacies that McDaniel who wishes to keep things “academic” used.

    • The False dichotomy or excluded middle.–Looking at extremes and forgetting about the continuum, and making false comparisons.
    Used in his unfair comparison of whites making the same utterance as the title of Abagond’s post; I went into why it was unfair and talked about context. (Context as I used it could also be “continuum” for the definition.)

    • Argumentum ad ignorantium–relying on the ignorance of others, in order to pull a fast one.
    Used by making that false comparison I pointed out.

    • Appeal to consequences– The premise is true if it leads to a desirable consequence. The premise is false if it leads to an undesirable consequence.
    Used when McDaniel claimed that, “if whites said [title of blog post] it would be racist, you blacks must therefore avoid being racist and not make speak like the title of this blog post.”<——–A paraphrase. When McDaniel made the appeal to consequences it was inescapably connected to the false dichotomy for a double whammy of fallacious thinking.
    ——————————————
    More notes for the critical reader:

    What Matari said about black Americans not being capable of racism or race realism is just obviously wrong. Not gonna go into a whole thing about it, though.

    Sorry Matari, I'm not attacking you but I had to say that.

    Like


  396. on Tue 25 Mar 2014 at 07:21:42 wordynerdygirl

    ^ This is why I skim 3/4 of the comments here and go straight to yours.

    Like


  397. “Sharina, dictionary definitions are not set in stone”—Nor do I remember saying or indicating that they were. This is why I not only quoted about 3 different ones, but also stated in my other post that your idea of racism is not the only one. As can be see here https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/stuff-white-people-probably-shouldnt-say/#comment-224240

    Furthermore it is you that is asserting there is some confusion on the definition of the words racism and prejudice. So you can see why I find it a bit laughable that at this moment you choose to back track and claim connotative definitions for the word.

    “Thus, I am not just “twisting” the definitions of words.”—You most certainly are twisting the definitions if you are trying to claim yours as the “correct” one when several could easily be correct. Mind you deceit would also need to be added to this list as you are now trying to claim the “other definitions” argument even when that has been pointed out.

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  398. @Thomas McDaniel

    You seem very good at twisting definitions to mean what you want them to mean. The thing about explicit commands is that they usually are a requirement and followed by a consequence for not being followed. Moral judgments do not have consequences and are usually left up to the individual being judged to decide if it is best for them. Judging a person and commanding a person are two different things.

    Like


  399. Damn, I knew I should have proofread a little more.

    you blacks must therefore avoid being racist and not make speak like the title of this blog post.”

    Abagond delete “make”, if you please. It crept in there as a result of sleepy sentence revision.
    ————————–
    @ Wordy

    You’ll embarrass me if you keep that up. (but thanks! :) )

    Like


  400. Caucasian – this refers to ourselves why would this offend anyone of any other race? Is the color white also going to be offensive?

    Different background – If my background is different than yours how else would one describe it? The same? Different backgrounds wouldn’t be limited to just the backgrounds of people with different skin tones, ex. Polish vs German = different. All cultures are different.

    Ghetto – Originated by defining the area of a city in which the Jews lived in greatest numbers. But yes now it refers to the “poor” part of town. It may or may not be inhabited primarily by blacks but that is not the definition to most people. It just means the poor, run down part of town.

    Hollywood stereotypes – BET is not run by whites. The CEO (Debra L. Lee) is a woman of color. The news does not discriminate either. What happens happens. Yes they may tend to lead their audiences in certain political paths, but they tend to actually favor the black communities (not sure if that is offensive or not, idk what I can and can’t use anymore).

    Ethnic – Just another word for describing a minority. Yes it may refer to foods or whatever, from colored cultures, but that’s only because of the actual meaning of the word. 72.4% of the American population is white (63.7% if you take out Hispanics who describe themselves as white). Let’s take it one step further… I have Czech heritage in me… Czech food can be called Ethnic food. I have no problem with that.

    Eurocentric terms (ethnic, exotic, native, tribal, regular, normal, backward, underdeveloped) –
    Seriously?! Again already went over ethnic, exotic pretty much means the same thing (foreign origins). Native means origin referring to the origins of a person or culture, what’s offensive about that? Should we call Native Americans North American Indians when referencing their culture? Tribal… cultural characteristics of tribes (come on) if that’s your culture don’t be ashamed and get offended if the proper word for your culture is used. I have no comment on normal, backward, or underdeveloped because that’s just idiotic to think these are offensive words. What’s normal to me and normal to you may be two completely different things. As for underdeveloped, if you’re talking about a region, then it just means the main structure of the area is behind in the times, or lacking sufficient money to update. This has nothing to do with race.

    Inner city – Inner city does not refer to a derogatory term for area where few whites live. That may be the case but it just means the older more densely populated area of the city. Usually poorer, yes, but only because no one actually wants to live in a dense city so the cost of living is cheaper. It just works out that way. There is no reference to color on that one.

    Minorities – Minorities is should not be offensive. It just means a smaller group.

    N-word – I agree that this may be offensive…. So stop using it!

    Negro – A person of black skin with origins tied to Africa. That’s offensive?

    Oriental – Just as Negro refers to blacks from Africa and Caucasians whites, Oriental refers to people and cultures from the western part of the world… That is all.

    Oversensitive – LOL ok if this is an offensive word to you… then you are.

    Like


  401. George Ryder

    I have learned a long time ago that people say exactly what they intend to when put on the spot. The reason I have to believe he is purposely twisting is on the basis that when countered he changes the wording. Each time bringing in a new concept to make what he is saying more valid. If he can mentally conceive ideas to maneuver around an idea then he is well aware of what he is doing.

    Like


  402. Just thinking about something.
    White people are actually always lecturing others since early childhood about how they should behave or what they should or should not say to make white people feel more comfortable. The “Stuff Black People probably should not say” or “Stuff Asians probably should not say” etc. has been rammed into their heads by whites since childhood.

    I start to wonder if white people have never heard it from the others, or if they have heard it, if they ever really listened.

    Like


  403. @ Thomas McDaniel

    If you want to post your own list of “Stuff Black People Probably Should Not Say” on this thread, go for it.

    Like


  404. brothers and sisters we must wake up! to all poc: our problem is the same. we must defeat white supremacy. Send the white man back to where he came from and eradicate the racial hierarchy he created.
    inshallah that day will come soon when retribution will be paid.
    he will never understand our pain yet he has stolen everything for us. where is our ancestry, where is our culture where is our history.
    how much more must we read before we wake up.
    do not listen to bigoted racists like mr ryder. how many times must we visit stormfront to learn the hatred the pale-skinned have for us?
    yellow, brown, black. it doesn’t matter. look how many visits stormfront gets compared to this blog. they want to eradicate us. they failed last time. now it is our turn to try.

    Like


  405. @ Mike

    I did not say they were all offensive. I said they were “odd, offensive, arrogant, ignorant and so on”.

    Like


  406. there is no point to argue. they do not understand.

    they do not understand that we do not want to see our young grow up the way we did. we want them to grow up without having nightmares of the klan, of being accused of stealing everytime they linger in a store, of being stop and checked by police 10 times a year, of having to appear friendly to whtie people when they dont want to be, of having to read his history, his customs, his language and his racist traditions.

    of having to fear imprisonment for marijuana possession, of being accused of rape when she was willing, of being viewed as ugly when they are beautiful.

    he will never understand these things. poc why are you arguing? we have internet. we have means to organise. we are educated. a movement is massing. prepare yourselves.

    white people, have you had to tell your children that people want them harm simply for the color of their skin? u have not. that is why u will never understand. go back to ur cold mountains. give back poc their land.

    Like


  407. mr ryder i do not argue with oppressor. ur ancestors have much to answer for. but they are no longer here.

    Like


  408. the white man created a system. we will make him play by the rules he created. white man said white is white. white with one drop of none white is black as pitch. but that way is better.
    that as made it easier for us to decide.

    Like


  409. do white man teach of my empire? no because he is afraid of the black man who creates an empire. the british know the strength of ashanti empire that lived for a quarter of millenia.

    white man think ashanti is a singer who sell her soul. more racism

    ashanti is our empire. our pride.

    before any other race, we imitated his ways and would have surpassed him but they were too barbaric.

    even this language is language of dirt. i learn it only to reach my brothers.

    brother abagond, do you speak of ashanti?

    u talk of black weakness. u talk of our destruction. u remind the white man of our weakness. where do you show our strength?

    white man only recognise strength.

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  410. ashanti:

    I agree that it is a waste to argue back and forth with these racist white people, like George Ryder and every white person that joins this blog to always challenge black people, that point out racism and white supremacy.

    They don’t bother with the masses of black people that coon, shuch n jive and sell out their own race by being uncle toms and sellout black women that marry and date white men.

    I choose to ignore all the white racists by not engaging with them in any back and forth argument, being its a waste of time.

    I rather spend that time, educating young and old black brothers and sisters on how to navigate through the white supremacist society that we as black people live in America.

    White people that join this blog, want nothing other than to cause chaos and confusion, not to engage in a civil discourse. I’ve seen them do this over and over again.

    The sad thing is, all the intelligent black people on this blog, waste their time and brain power on arguing and calling them names, which doesn’t do anything to further or support our efforts to change the system of white supremacy, racism and white privilege.

    Like


  411. mr ryder, return to stormfront, peace be upon you for when you are judged.

    Like


  412. brother or sister sondis, salam malaykoum, you speak the truth.

    i come only here to reach out to those who know our suffering.

    not to those who don’t.

    Like


  413. with what will you fight? your empire is over. your debt is owned by chinese.
    no country will support you. russia and chinese money.
    first it come to beautiful africa. next it will go to those poc willing to fight in the heart of your empire.
    the seeds of revolution have always been there. that is why white man fear poc.

    a bit of sprinkling is all that is need. then your downfall will come from within and from without.

    never underestimate the hatred that all peoples have for your race. even japanese do not forget that they have been occupied for 70 years. they did not forget hiroshima and nagasaki.

    but they conceal strength. so that when it blossom, u are unprepared.

    the toppling of the anglo-american empire will be the greatest moment in history of poc.

    Like


  414. how many more teenage girls must your soldiers rape in japan? beyond the ones they killed and raped in afghanistan and iraq. or all these other countries. abagond my brother. post the list of countries america, leader of the white race, has invaded when you have time, peace be upon you, here it is is.

    SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
    ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
    CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
    HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
    IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners’ strike.
    HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
    CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
    NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
    CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
    KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
    PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
    NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
    CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
    PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
    CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
    PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
    GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
    MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
    NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
    SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
    NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
    IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d’Alene mining region.
    OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
    PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone; Opened canal 1914.
    HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
    KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
    CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
    NICARAGUA 1907 Troops “Dollar Diplomacy” protectorate set up.
    HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
    PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
    NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
    HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
    CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
    CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
    PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
    HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
    NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
    MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
    COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners’ strike by Army.
    MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
    HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
    TEXAS 1915 Troops Federal soldiers crush “Plan of San Diego” Mexican-American rebellion
    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
    CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
    WORLD WAR I 1917-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
    RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
    PANAMA 1918-20 Troops “Police duty” during unrest after elections.
    HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
    YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
    GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
    WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
    TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
    CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
    MEXICO
    HONDURAS 1923 1924-25 Bombing Troops Airpower defends Calles from rebellion Landed twice during election strife.
    PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
    CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
    EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
    WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
    WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
    DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
    IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
    YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
    URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
    GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
    GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
    CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
    PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
    PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
    KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
    IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
    VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
    GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov’t nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
    EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
    LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Army & Marine occupation against rebels.
    IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
    CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
    PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
    VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
    CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
    GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
    LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
    CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
    IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba’ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
    PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal’s return.
    INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
    DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Army & Marines land during election campaign.
    GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
    DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
    UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
    CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
    OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
    LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; “carpet-bombs” countryside.
    SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
    MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
    CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
    CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gassing of captured ship Mayagüez, 28 troops die when copter shot down.
    ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
    IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
    LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
    EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
    NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
    LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions. 241 Marines killed when Shi’a rebel bombs barracks.
    GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
    HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
    IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
    LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple Qaddafi gov’t.
    BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
    IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war, defending reflagged tankers and shooting down civilian jet.
    LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
    VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
    PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
    PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
    LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
    SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
    IRAQ 1990-91 Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
    KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
    IRAQ 1991-2003 Bombing, naval No-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south; constant air strikes and naval-enforced economic sanctions
    LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
    SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
    YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
    BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
    HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
    ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Troops at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
    LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
    ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
    SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas plant.
    AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
    IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
    YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
    YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
    MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
    UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
    AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
    YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
    PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into combat missions in Sulu Archipelago, west of Mindanao.
    COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
    IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi’ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
    LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
    HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines & Army land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
    PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
    SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against “pirates” and insurgents.
    SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
    YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels
    LIBYA 2011-? Bombing, missiles, command operation NATO coordinates air strikes and missile attacks against Qaddafi government during uprising by rebel army.

    Like


  415. http://www.orchestratedpulse.com/2014/03/feminism-black/

    this kind of goes of tangentially into gay/etc rights and feminism, but a black guy wrote it..

    “Receiving a benefit is not the same as possessing the power. Additionally, there’s a difference between situational power and systemic power; privilege is systemic, not situational. “

    Like


  416. actualy, good luck on ashanti’s fight against white racism in the world, but , ill be long dead and buried in the ground before this scenario gets played out that ashanti describes…and ive heard it over and over…dont forget venezuela , iran, cuba, north korrea…yeah right…dream on about this sencario

    keep in mind, any inside armed revolution ideas inside, or texas or alaska seperating, will be received with a multi colored, multi ethnic task force to deal with it…you can call them uncle toms or deluded all anyone wants to…but they will be there..thank goodness

    i love america, i just hate a lot of americans

    Like


  417. posts like this ,indeed much of this blog have the effect of making some members of the sapien population look embarrassingly stupid and ill informed,but mistakes are an inevitable component of evolution.

    Like


  418. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 11:22:14 Robert Walpole

    This is ridiculous. This is actually the reason why racism persists. The charming Ashanti is quite right. As long as you continue whining and appeal to white people for pity, you will be perceived as weak. As long as you’re perceived as weak, there will be racism against you.

    I mean the Chinese are viewed as being highly intelligent by nearly every white person I know. Are we racist against them? No. We’re amazed by their capacity to study so much.

    This post (about how insensitive the word insensitive is!), on the other hand, reinforces the idea that whining and acting like a little girl will get people to start being nice to you. It won’t. It just feeds into the stereotypes they have of you.

    Really every black person tired of the word insensitive should go to far east asia (as should you Ashanti), Just go there. See how much respect other People of Colour have for you.

    It is ridiculous. Words cannot describe how much far east asians hate black people. I have never seen anything like it in my life. White people are not even close to that level of racism (white Europeans anyway, I personally don’t identify with gun totting white Americans much either).

    The whole world hates white people? It is the opposite. They all hate black people. North Africans. Arabs. Indians. Far East Asians. They all do.

    Any Chinese people on here to confirm this? If your an ABC, ask your parents. They’ll confirm it.

    Jewish people have a far smaller population than black people. They have been persecuted for millenia. They number about 15-20 million world wide. Do they whine? No, like the Chinese they work hard. They have even established a country for themselves in one of the most dangerous areas of the world.

    Nearly every race has been enslaved at some point (including white people and jewish people). Get over it. Pack your bag and head to the library.

    Like


  419. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 11:43:48 Robert Walpole

    The word insensitive is racist. What a nutcase. You want us to kiss your feet as well?

    Ashanti bring it on. The military might of the US and the EU together is something that has never been witnessed at any other point in history. NATO owns the world. Worse than during the colonial age.

    Because military strength earns respect. Not whining about BET.

    A single terrorist attack in 2001 resulted in two bloody military campaigns that practically lasted a decade.

    We recently co-opted Ukraine. It will soon be entering NATO. This is the heart of Kievan Rus. Aka Russian territory. Look how they’ve been brought to their knees.

    But instead of being grateful of living within NATO and not outside it, you whine about BET. Go check if any Iraqis want to swap places with you.

    Oh and if you think Putin is on your side. Go see what his views on black people are.

    As for Xi Jinping, the only reason Chinese money is going into Africa is so that they can rob your resources. Pretty sure the Chinese are currently enslaving Africans through dirt cheap wages. The tyranny of finance.

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  420. Robert Walpole

    Actually there are two people on here who live or have lived in asian. Some who have interacted with Africans etc. Each give there own account and frankly white people are either equally as hated or more so depending on the person. Furthermore liking someone truly or respecting them because of current standings are two different things. I have 2 east Asian friends (recently moved here) and all they do is talk about how rude, selfish, and ignorant white people are. Frankly sometimes I wonder why I bothered to ask them to give whites a chance because each is different, but anyway. Point being if Asian (the ones I know) are really good at making white people feel good about themselves but underneath you are nothing special. If the power structure shifts in their favor you will find our how true that is very quickly.

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  421. Oh and Robert Walpole 2 more things.

    1. define whining ( because I believe you are wrongfully applying it).

    2. Don’t lecture people on whining when you are doing the same.

    Good day. :)

    Like


  422. Be careful Robert. Your whiteness is showing. :-)

    Like


  423. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 12:22:08 Robert Walpole

    Hey brothawolf nice of you to join us. Do you also think that the everything in this world is one huge conspiracy by white people to keep you down?

    Of course my whiteness is showing. I am white. Unlike all the other white people here, I am not here to kiss your feet. I have a working class background. My grandfather worked down the mines. I have nothing to do with your lunatic conspiracy theories. I owned no slaves. Unlike your beloved founding fathers.

    Do I whine because there has never ever been a ginger leading actor in a leading hollywood role?

    My whiteness is showing. What is wrong with being white?

    Until you all realise that the history of man is the history of the oppression of the poor by the rich, you will all keep whining about the word ‘insensitive’.

    Racism belongs to the simple minds. And you all seem to think it is still a race issue. It is a wealth issue. It has always been.

    Like


  424. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 12:27:04 Robert Walpole

    Brothawolf, every single other race hates black people more than the whites. It is the reality. Go to China, Japan, the Middle East, India and North Africa. And then go whine about how bad white people are. Your all insular little Americans who have nothing to moan about except deluded conspiracy theories.

    Like


  425. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 12:40:45 Robert Walpole

    Every race on this planet discriminates against black people more than the white race but if you want to keep alienating the one race you can build bridges with through daft little posts like this, then go ahead.

    Even within black people, black americans are at the bottom of the pile. Liberia anyone? Even in Africa, Africans don’t like you for your attempt at colonising Liberia.

    And then keep blaming white people. Madness.

    Saudia Araba still holds black people slaves, and black americans are whining about BET? Yes and jay-z is illuminati (rather than exploiting people’s stupid beliefs about illuminati to make money).

    Oh but because I am white. Nothing of what I say is true.

    But Ashanti can talk about genocide and no one moves. I post the blindingly obvious and i’ve got abagond’s pet pooches brothawolf and shania on my case.

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  426. Robert Walpole,

    Unless you can find substantial proof that there is no white supremacist system built to uphold the concepts of European and White Americanism, then yes. I really do.

    I’m not asking you to kiss my feet, nor do I want you too. But I will not bend over backwards to spare your feelings.

    When I said that your whiteness is showing, I mean your mindset, your emotions and your thinking. I was not referring to your physical makeup. I was referring to your mentality, the mentality that looks down on nonwhites, especially Africans, convince himself that racism is not his responsibility or is as big an issue as wealth, and the defense of it all.

    No one here mentioned about you owning or not owning slaves. I find it funny how in a thread or conversation, no one mentions slavery, but a white person would always bring it up. If slavery is not an issue, why mention it in the first place?

    There is nothing wrong with being white, but there is something wrong with acting like a sheltered, obnoxious, racist DB who parades around like he knows more about racism than those who actually live it. A word of advice, if you truly want to know what racism is, turn to the people who have been at the receiving end of it, not those who benefit from it.

    Lastly, this particular issue is not a wealth issue. It’s a race issue, like it or not. Telling yourself that race is not an issue at anytime where it is present is denial. You can convince yourself as much as you like that it’s not about race, but when you make statements like the one you did about how the world hates Africans, then you’ve just put your foot in your mouth for everyone to see.

    Bottom line, we’re not here to coddle you and your delicate white feelings and insensitive white racist Americanism. Now, if you wanna continue acting like a total troll, be my guess.

    Like


  427. /me claps at the statement, Brothawolf just wrote.

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  428. Robert Walpole, you screamed:

    Brothawolf, every single other race hates black people more than the whites. It is the reality. Go to China, Japan, the Middle East, India and North Africa. And then go whine about how bad white people are. Your all insular little Americans who have nothing to moan about except deluded conspiracy theories.

    I’m not, as you say, whining about how bad white people are. I’m commenting about how ridiculous you sound.

    As a side note, if you aren’t American, disregard me mentioning ‘Americanism’ in my last reply to you. Yet, all that other stuff still applies. :-)

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  429. Robert Walpole, now you’re just whining and crying, refusing to take any hint of accountability for what you’ve said which was clearly offensive. Don’t dish out what you can’t take, my friend. Otherwise, people may think you’re losing your marbles.

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  430. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 12:56:31 Robert Walpole

    But racism is inbuilt in every society in the world. That is what I am trying to tell you. Name one race that doesn’t have racism.

    The problem is your blaming racism on white people not on the human psyche.

    Instead of trying to fight back against negative perceptions of your ethnicity like the Jews and the Chinese by working hard, you whine about it.

    Nigerians are better perceived in America than Black Americans. Because they are known for working hard and studying.

    Nigerians are incredibly successful in British universities. I also know so many guys from Trinidad and Tobago who went to top British universities and got cushty engineering jobs that I am starting to think ‘damn I should haved studied like that guy from Trinny’. That’s what human beings do. They look for success and try to emulate it. I had an interview with a guy from Trinny (Port of Spain) who had just finished working at goldman sachs, I doubt he cares about BET. I doubt he even watches it!

    As long as black americans point to BET and not to their successes, as long as they keep complaining, you won’t be taken seriously.

    The only way you can fight negative perceptions of your ethnicity is by proving it wrong, not whining about the word ‘insensitive’. You give the whole world the impression that you want to be treated with protective gloves.

    Also the idea that whites don’t discriminate amongst themselves on class lines is ludicrous. I have more venom for eton-educated british people than for any other social group I can think of.

    you all sound like a bunch of babies. i’m sorry. you do.

    go to china. whine about cctv and get thrown into jail.

    Like


  431. Robert Walpole. Still mad I see.

    Name one race that doesn’t have racism? Uh let’s see…white people.

    Oh, here we go with the working hard bit. I guess any and all movements for civil rights was just an illusion, eh? I guess all the black people I’ve known who have been working and getting an education was all in my mind. I guess the famous and well known black people that I’ve heard and read so much about are all characters of a dream I suppose. Wow. LMAO!!

    What is it with you and BET? It’s like you can’t comment without mentioning it. LOL

    Listen, I’m not complaining about me being black in a white dominated world. What I do have a problem with is YOU. Do you understand, sir? I have a problem with much of what your spewing. Well, actually, I find it sad really. I’ve seen about 20 other white people who said the same thing. Must be a case of having a hive mind I suppose. LOL

    And yes, I find your rantings hilarious because you’re actually irritated. But they are predictable, weak, ignorant and just plain sad.

    Robert, here’s the reality. There are tons upon tons of black people who do not fit the negative perceptions created, upheld and circulated by a white male dominated society, especially through its media, also owned by white males. You see there are many black people who don’t fit the offensive, 2-D cardboard cutouts you see on the news, movies, reality TV, etc. Yet, the white men who own these companies don’t want to show that. No. Instead, they want those who DO fit those images, and who will kiss their a**es to get paid for ratings instead of say, try to uplift them as a human being should.

    But of course, it’s our fault for being black, huh Robert? We shouldn’t complain about the scraps many of us are left with thanks to a racist capitalistic system built off the blood, sweat and tears of black people since day one. We should just listen to what you and other white folks say and not have minds of our own. Right. SMH

    Robert, remember this. YOU are the one who CHOSE to come HERE. You didn’t have to come, but YOU DID. What you see is what you get. And in the end, you only have yourself to blame because like I said, you made the decision of coming to a space that wasn’t established for your mindset. If you don’t like what we say here, LEAVE. We don’t need your white whining here. We will not spend our time pacifying you and babying your little feelings. If you don’t like it here, go to a website that does like Amren or something.

    This is a place for black people and other POC to go to, away from the world your people have created. Get it? This is OUR SPACE. And you made the effort to violate it with your ‘whitespeak’.

    So, if you wanna continue screaming like a spoiled, sheltered child, go ahead. You’re only humiliating yourself, you know. But please know that we are entertained by your whiteness.

    Like


  432. I mean the Chinese are viewed as being highly intelligent by nearly every white person I know. Are we racist against them? No. We’re amazed by their capacity to study so much.

    Really? You should ask the Chinese about that instead of making assumptions. Any Chinese activist will instantly bring up:

    1) Perpetual foreigner status for Asians who live is the U.S. for generations
    2) Fear of the “Yellow Peril”
    3) The emasculation of Asian males by White men
    4) The White to Asian interracial dating disparity
    5) The charge that Asians are a “hive mind” and lack Western individuality

    This is how you show that you are “amazed” by them. Asians are seen as useful to Whites (if they know their place) but not truly equal to Whites. Then in Western societies, the Asians who live there are often used as a comparison or pointed at to show other minorities how they should act. This brings us to another old, White stupidity:

    6) The East Asian “Model Minority” meme
    (Which, like a true White man, you have just used)

    Like


  433. @ Robert Walpole

    Comments are to be in English only. I am deleting two of your comments that were in Chinese.

    Like


  434. king

    I’d argue that such claims are largely a racist and hypocritical smear against whites. I’ve noticed those using them the most tend to be the most virulently racist such as kiwi.

    Like


  435. That would be an easy idea to believe, as a White person, but a difficult one to make stick. you can find these same charges uniformly among Asian activist websites and organizations. Believe me, it’s not just kiwi, and these charges are not new. They go back for decades.

    Not only that, they can be substantiated, in many cases. It would be unfair to simply dismiss the Asians who are complaining about White attitudes towards them, in the West.

    Like


  436. ROFL.

    did he really go with the “everybody hates blacks argument.” One of the weakest the I have heard.

    Like


  437. @ Robert Walpole

    So are you racist? Do you hate blacks?

    Like


  438. Robert don’t answer that asinine question. He regularly asks it of whites to put them on the defensive. Meanwhile he runs a blog dedicated to smearing whites.

    Like


  439. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 15:49:01 bygodsloveandgrace

    @Robert Walpole

    Your straw man arguments are nothing more than divide and conquer tactics that won’t work with many commenters on this site. Please try some better material if you’re going to “play” on here.

    Your intent is to bash and stereotype Black people while masking fake outrage to push your agenda. Some people will tire of you eventually after they’ve had enough fun.

    BTW–The BET reference is hysterical. Why do trolls think that the Viacom-run channel personifies Black American life? Too funny…

    Like


  440. @Da Jokah

    Then the question is why would whites be on the defensive simply because of that question? I have had a black person ask me if I am racist and I laughed my azz off. Usually if something makes a person upset it holds some truth. *shrugs*

    This is why to this day I give everything biff says the complete side eye because this guy was happily arguing lowering the age of consent and only back-peddled when he got a reaction he did not expect.

    Like


  441. “Your intent is to bash and stereotype Black people while masking fake outrage to push your agenda.”

    Pot, meet kettle. LOL

    Like


  442. @King

    I can say I was surprised to find Asian’s felt that way. I was under the impression they were ok with the way they were treated until I started noticing a large amount of Asian activist popping up. The internet has greatly given voice to a group of once thought to be silent people.

    Like


  443. Da Jokah

    Skillet I think you should allow put and kettle to handle this on there own.

    Like


  444. If you want to post your own list of “Stuff Black People Probably Should Not Say” on this thread, go for it.

    Waiting for this. :P

    Like


  445. The military might of the US and the EU together is something that has never been witnessed at any other point in history. NATO owns the world. Worse than during the colonial age.

    NATO is one tool in a very large toolbox. NATO does not own the world. In fact, you neither known nor can see the people who own the world.

    Like


  446. The military might of the EU…?

    There is no unified entity like an EU army, as such. Anything like that would require unanimous support among the member states, and that is not all that common, about anything much it seems.

    As firepower goes, the unified EU is nowhere.
    USA leads the world, followed by Russia, China and India.

    Like


  447. @ Bulanik

    how about robot power? :-)

    Like


  448. I think I scared him off. LMAO :-)

    Like


  449. Robert don’t answer that asinine question. He regularly asks it of whites to put them on the defensive. Meanwhile he runs a blog dedicated to smearing whites.

    This coming from a man who smears blacks and is too scared to answer the same questions.

    Like


  450. @robert walpole, i don’t think i try to kiss abagond’s feet, why don’t you ask him, or maybe you don’t like irishes either.

    Like


  451. @ Churchs/Da Jokah

    Given how you use a sock puppet after getting banned, it’s ironic that you accuse others of anything. The biggest hypocrite here is you. You’re always bashing blacks and whining about not getting into school. You don’t care about justice. You’re just here to blame blacks for your own stupidity when you’re the only failure here.

    Like


  452. @ Robert Walpole

    ABC here. I study hard and do well in school. Were you here to congratulate me or bash blacks with that? Because I seriously doubt it’s the former. A couple white guys married into my family and they’re racist pricks like you, so no cookies for you.

    Also, whites have treated my family way worse than blacks have, so it’s hilarious that you think Asians are your pawns.

    Like


  453. So to demonstrate how his stereotyping of African(+descended) people isn’t him being a racist, Robert Walpole uses stereotypes of Asians? Lol, that-is-priceless!

    Then there is this Da Jokah character who keeps crying about “smearing whites”, as if whites don’t do a great job of that themselves lol. Bitter much? Stay here and cry about it, maybe it’ll change.

    This blog I swear for every 3 level headed decent white people it attracts there are 20 more overly emotional, self absorbed, lunatics who barrel in and make fools of themselves every chance they get. I’m literally tearing up, this is comedy gold.

    Like


  454. @ Da Jokah

    Are you a virulent racist?

    Like


  455. Abagond, he will never answer. I asked Jokah at least twice and he never answered.

    Like


  456. “Da Jokah

    Robert don’t answer that asinine question. He regularly asks it of whites to put them on the defensive. Meanwhile he runs a blog dedicated to smearing whites.”

    Look what these racist white people have been reduced too, telling other racist white people, which questions to answer. -_-

    Like


  457. Robert Walpole

    “I post the blindingly obvious and i’ve got abagond’s pet pooches brothawolf and shania on my case.”—Oh it looks like the whining baby got so emotionally upset that he chose to misspell my name. Does the cry baby need a bottle or pacifier? ROFL. Spend less time on this blog and learn the difference between a fact and your opinion.

    Like


  458. @bygodsloveandgrace

    “BTW–The BET reference is hysterical. Why do trolls think that the Viacom-run channel personifies Black American life? Too funny…”—I could not agree more. I have not laughed this hard since Christopher Columbus.

    Like


  459. @Brothawolf

    He will be back. Probably on a different post but really doing the same thing. Attack the posters rather than address the post. I think he believes because he is married to an Asian and he has half Nigerian relatives then he is not racist.

    Like


  460. on Wed 26 Mar 2014 at 23:14:03 bygodsloveandgrace

    “@bygodsloveandgrace

    ‘BTW–The BET reference is hysterical. Why do trolls think that the Viacom-run channel personifies Black American life? Too funny…—I could not agree more. I have not laughed this hard since Christopher Columbus.”

    ———————————————————————————–

    Thanks @Sharina.

    As we know, BET is hardly representative of the full breadth and complexities of Black America. It’s an entertainment channel.

    It’s also a shell of what it once was since Viacom bought it. Notice the first thing execs did was remove anything substantial such as news programs or shows that discussed the dynamic aspects of Black life? SMH.

    Like


  461. Sharina, he’ll likely regroup and come back with more nonsense. I probably just sent him crying and he’s calming himself down for now.

    Like


  462. Are you a virulent racist?

    Oh no, I think he’s wonderful!

    Like


  463. LOL! Such comic relief. Why oh why do they come here spouting off what black folk should do, should be in order for the white folk to love us, black folk. Get a grip. Who cares what your white mind thinks. Remember this is Abagond’s space, so your superiority complex will be checked at the door. :-D

    Like


  464. I think the natives are restless. haha

    Like


  465. This is a great post. At first I thought to myself, ‘Sub-Saharan Africa? That’s just the name of the region’ and I used google briefly and realized holy shit, that’s almost the entire continent, with the parts that tend to have lighter-skinned indigenous people cut out. That alone was enough, but I read several arguments in favor that the term was dubbed to describe ‘black Africa’. That really made me think.

    Like


  466. Okay, I’m a bit nervous I’m going to say something stupid that is perceived as racist …
    (I’m talking intent, not an unconscious prejudice. I was raised where I was raised, with an experience of my own. I don’t deny there may be things I could work on)
    .. but here are my thoughts anyway.

    N Word: If Tim Allen said comedians should be allowed to use the N word to take the sting out of it, he was being an idiot. That term referred to property, a human being who was property. No one should use that term except as part of an accurate portrayal of historic events (quotes, etc), period.

    Different Cultural Background: A Kenyan friend of mine has one of those, since he was raised in Kenya and even now doesn’t understand all he could about American ways. I do agree the term is often misused.

    Hollywood stereotypes: I’d just point out they don’t exactly paint an accurate picture of the lives of white people either, especially poor ones. People who base their views about another on portrayals of their “race” in movies and television are just betraying their own foolishness.

    Race: Hellooo. Human is our race. I know that could be said by a racist who considers others subhuman but it is truth nevertheless. The genetic traits and cultural traditions (including the american ones) that have come down to you are your heritage. Think about it.

    Just a note about stereotypes in general. Mr Allen’s heart may be in the right place, I won’t judge him without more info. The more strongly we react to stereotypes of all kinds the more we give them power. Mocking stereotypes takes away their power. (note: I said mock stereotypes, NOT people)

    Quoting Dr. King: Although your point that some use him to disguise racist attitudes is valid, I respect and admire Dr King and I refuse to be shy about quoting him if it seems appropriate. (that said, because they are so often misused the times a quote is appropriate are rare)

    About a couple of the posts: I enjoy eating fried chicken, catfish (and or) grits, pinto beans, black eyed peas, tacos, quesadillas and a whole lot of other supposedly “ethnic” (it is a misused term btw) foods that are in reality southern and southwestern foods. Why? I’m southern and my mom was from Texas.

    The whole referring to people of color as simians of any sort thing makes my skin crawl too.

    Finally, wow people, responses to a post about about how people should avoid using terms that are felt (often rightly so) to be hurtful or insensitive which themselves denigrate or make assumptions about entire classes of people and treat them as a generic mass rather than individuals. Really?

    Mr Walpole, if every “race” (I assume you are defining race as a genetically similar group of people with a shared culture) dislikes people of color more than do whites explain, for example, the black Seminoles and Chief John Horse.

    Ashanti, your diatribes against the mythicalized version of whites you believe in speak to me of paranoia and oncoming insanity. If you truly believe these things get help, be it from a psychologist or an Imam (who hasn’t been radicalized by Jihadists or racist nuts). If you must include Wounded Knee in your list of military actions, though, at least include both sieges.

    Kiwi, I don’t see you as racist but you seem to be making the same mistake many whites regularly do; judging all by the action or opinions of some is wrong no matter who does it.

    p.s. Red is my favorite flavor kool aid, and I’m approximately half white 1/4 Cherokee and 1/4 Apache so the racist trolls on both sides of the black / white equation can have fun figuring that out.

    Oh, and folks, don’t dismiss classism. Wealthy white life is not like poor white life. Poor black (okay p.o.c.) folks get a double whammy, and the higher percentage of poor p.o.c. is certainly a result of racism in the past (less so now though of course it exists). Just saying that, though I’m sure it can feel that way, race isn’t the end all and be all of human stupidity and cruelty.

    Like


  467. I mostly agree with this blog post. I’m a white dude, almost middle-aged. I’m been active in gay rights, civil rights, and human rights causes for about twenty years now. I hope it’s all right if I offer my commentary on some of these words/phrases. Please know that I am doing this to be as intellectually honest and accurate as I can be, for whatever it is or is not worth. I am not intending to defend white people whatsoever.

    I wish everyone would do this exercise and share their thoughts about it. Doing that would almost certainly enrich and help solidify that we are all “us” and there is no “them.”

    So, I”ll just jump into my thoughts, as a early-middle aged white guy who grew up in a white neighborhood and went to a rural high school in the American Midwest with a very white student body — except for two black people and one girl whose parents were born in South Korea — but sought out people different than me in college and grad school. I now live in a neighborhood that has mostly black residents in a Midwestern city.

    “Caucasian” – Forensic anthropologists still use this term, but I think that most scientists are dropping it. I personally don’t know any whites of European descent who call themselves “Caucasian.” From my personal experience, the word comes up only when it’s an option on surveys or census forms, but that does not mean it isn’t used due to people being sensitive to its offensive etymology. Most white people are just completely unaware and disinterested. It’s just easier to say “white” and I think that the “-asian” part of the word throws white people who don’t have any known Asian heritage off.

    “ching chong” – Agree, although comedian Stephen Colbert used the phrase on his show once when he was mocking Rush Limbaugh for using it in a clearly ethnocentric, racist, and condescending way on Rush’s rightwing radio talk show. I don’t personally have a problem with mocking racists,
    Side note: I’m glad they don’t have that old Calgon commercial I grew up seeing all the time on television, “Ancient Chinese secret!” See here: http://youtu.be/BJP5f-fsHrs

    “different (cultural) background – often used as a ‘nice’, unracist-sounding way to say that blacks, Latinos, non-Westerners, etc, are screwed up. Comes from an ethnocentric, deficiency model of people of colour – aka cultural racism.” I
    I think that it depends on the context this phrase is used in as to whether it is condescending or not. For example, one of my neighbors growing up was Jewish. Once a year she would come to the elementary school and teach the almost all white Protestant students about her “different cultural background.”

    “ghetto – as an adjective it is used as a put-down for those parts of working-class black culture not yet appropriated by whites.”
    Mostly true, though I know a lot of white people who live in what would pejoratively be dubbed a “ghetto.”

    “Hollywood stereotypes – American film and television do not present a true-to-life picture of people of colour. Not even the news. Because those things are run by white people. Even BET.”
    I agree that Hollywood stereotypes are bad, but BET is run by African Americans. In 1985 it became the first black–controlled company on the NYSE. It’s current CEO and Chairman, Debra Lee, is black.
    Don’t get me wrong; I know that the founder and retired CEO and Robert L. Johnson sold BET to Viacom in 2001, and Viacom is headed by two white guys, but its operations are still run by Ms. Lee. I guess what I’m saying here is that whether BET is white or black depends on how you define “run” in this context.

    “ethnic – used as if White Americans do not have their own holidays, foods, neighbourhoods, restaurants, accents, ideas of beauty, etc.” Mostly true, though “ethnic” is a term used for some white people, too. Cajun-Creole, Italian, German, French, etc. I find it difficult to define what is “ethnic.”

    “Eurocentric terms – words that set up white Westerners as the centre of the world. Examples: ethnic, exotic, native, tribal, regular, normal, backward, underdeveloped, etc.” I partly disagree with this one. I don’t think ethnic, exotic, native, & tribal denote or imply white Westerners are the center of the world. These terms are fluid/dynamic, ever-changing as the world “shrinks,” so to speak, and these labels denote that which one is not familiar with or anything that is “other,” but race is not the focal point here. African-Americans are not exotic or any more ethnic than Irish-Americans or French-Americans. Using the terms normal, backward, regular, or undeveloped are belittling, though, and I cringe at them.

    “exotic – normalizes whiteness.”
    No, that’s not necessarily true. It normalizes that which has been assimilated ubiquitously. Race is, again, not the focal point of “exotic.”

    “‘I’m not racist but…’ – if you have to say it, you probably are.”
    Agree 100%!!

    “inner city – sounds objective and unracist, but it means the part of the city where few white people live.”
    Not always. Depends on context and region. I don’t know anyone who uses this term at all. The term people in my geographic region that refers to the inner city is “downtown.” I think “downtown” used to mean areas where whites were not the predominant race, but that has changed where I live.

    “minorities – soon everyone in America will be a minority. Featured in so many racist statements that it makes my skin crawl.”
    I’m not sure I understand this one. I need further explanation so I’m sure that I understand before I remark on this one.

    Mock Ebonics – in my experience, whites mainly use it as a sort of extended, condescending put-down. See ching chong. Definitely true. I used to hear it a lot growing up in rural Midwestern America. I never hear it now. If someone did talk that way, or “ching chong” now, then most people I know would feel uncomfortable at best, and folks would likely think the person was an idiot. That said, whites get mocked, too.

    “Mock Spanish – Spanish is one of the great languages of the Western world. Making fun of it (“No problemo”, etc) makes you look like an ignorant, arrogant twit. See ching chong.”
    Completely disagree that “no problemo” and the like are making fun of the Spanish language, whether in intention or effect. Quite the contrary, using such words or phrases is an acceptance of that language into the regional vernacular. As the Spanish-speaking population increases, so will the usage of Spanish words by people who speak English. This is true of any language, as languages are always mixing and changing, sometimes forming a new language. The Spanish and English languages both came about this way. In more recent times, Creole and Yiddish were both created and respected as distinct languages. The Spanish language is becoming so prevalent in the USA that there is even a portmanteau identifying it: “Spanglish.”

    “names – not trying to get a person’s name right shows a lack of respect.”
    True

    N-word – it is a racial slur when applied by a white person to a black person, despite what Tim Allen (pictured) says. I’m not too familiar with Tim Allen, but the N-word should never be used by whites in their discourse, though I am not sure if there should be exceptions, such as John Lennon’s song, “Woman is the Nigger of the World,” which is not meant to be racist. What do you think?

    “Negro – dated.” True

    “Oriental – dated.” True

    “oversensitive – said by insensitive racist jerks” Mostly true.

    “personal preference – when it falls in line with hundreds of years of white racist thinking, it is unlikely to be personal.” I don’t understand this one. I thought “personal preference” simply denoted what an individual prefers. For example, my personal preference when dining is to stay away from spicy foods because I have a weak stomach.

    “purple people – and polka-dotted ones too. Used to belittle the issue
    of race.” — I don’t understand this one.

    “Quoting Martin Luther King – mostly used by whites to silence talk of racism.”
    I strongly disagree and do not know of any examples where someone has quoted King to silence talk of racism. Quite the contrary, it ignites discussion..

    “racial slurs – are racist. Examples: chink, coon, cracker, Flip, gook, honky, Jap, jigaboo, nigger, spic, whitey.” Absolutely

    “racist jokes – are racist. They strengthen racism.” I grew up hearing blatantly offensive, racist jokes, but as an adult the only time I hear them are when it’s a comedian whose target is his or her own race. People like Dave Chappelle, Carlos Mencia, etc.

    “Some of my best friends are black” – mainly said by clueless racists.” True

    “sub-Saharan Africa – an objective-sounding way to say Black Africa – with a “sub” thrown in.”
    Never realized this. Always thought the term was benign, strictly geographic. I’ll stop using it now that I know. Thank you.

    “white proverbs – stock expressions whites use to centre whiteness. Examples:”

    “Where are you really from?”
    “I don’t see you as black.”
    “You’re not like other blacks.”
    “You speak such good English!”
    “She’s pretty for a black girl.”
    “Go back to Africa.”
    “Get over it!”
    True, though these phrases are not limited to white people. IN different variations, I have heard and read them being used by many other races when talking about a race that is not their own.

    “whitey – a racial slur mostly used by whites to make blacks seem racist.”
    I think that your view here undermines the very purpose of your blog post, to get white people who may or may not be aware of the offensiveness of certain words and phrases they use to stop using them. I can see some well-intentioned white person reading this and reacting, “Well, there’s nothing I can do because I’m always wrong since I’m white. Black people cannot be racist. I’ll just wallow in self-hatred for being white and keep my mouth shut.”

    Three of my favorite black recording artists have songs (songs I really like) that use the term, though I’ve always assumed that those songs are anti-racist. Songs like Gil Scott-Heron’s “Whitey On The Moon,” Curtis Mayfield’s “Mighty Mighty (Spade and Whitey),” and Sly & the Family Stone’s “Don’t Call Me Nigger, Whitey!”

    Usually when I hear a white person using the term it means someone who has white or very blonde hair. People called me “whitey” when I was a kid, because I had very blonde hair, almost white. Whitey Bulger, Whitey Herzog, and other “whitey’s” were given the nickname for the same reason I was.

    on Tue 10 Sep 2013 at 22:12:11 Kiwi

    @ abagond

    You could maybe add “ethnic foods” to your list. White people mock blacks for eating fried chicken, watermelon, grape soda, grits, and fruit rollup. Similarly, Hispanics are mocked for eating beans, tacos, and quesadillas. Asians are mocked for eating dog meat (which most Asians don’t even eat).

    I was carrying some food to my table with a couple of friends once and a white male lowlife looking at me said “Ooh, look at me! I’m Asian! I can’t WAIT to eat my dog meat!” There were between 10 to 15 other white people sitting at his table, and they all burst into laughter. They were so disgusting.

    I also read in the news about how some white students stuck slices of ham into Muslim students’ sandwiches.

    One of my black friends was eating a banana once, and I noticed a couple of white guys a distance away pointing at him and snickering. I don’t know what they were saying to each other.

    I also read about how white sports fans will toss banana peels at black athletes they don’t like.

    @Kiwi: Please don’t say “white people” in general. As an adult I know of very few white people who mock like that or who would do something like that to a Muslim.
    The banana peel racist gesture happened at a soccer match in Barcelona, and everyone, of all races stood in solidarity behind Dan Alves. I, myself, signed a petition that stated “We are all monkeys,” as a show of support and solidarity for Dan Alves and as a condemnation of the racism. The fan who threw the banana got “owned” as they say. He is banned for life from any soccer matches and he isn’t too popular right now, to put it lightly. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/28/sport/football/dani-alves-banana-racism-football/index.html

    on Tue 10 Sep 2013 at 22:59:31 With Love Glenn

    illegal – no human is illegal

    alien – dated and dehumanizing

    undocumented – dated. Instead use RPI “Registered Provisional Immigrant”

    Hispanic – Proceeded with caution. Most “Hispanics” prefer “Latino”; unless they have no European heritage. For example, indigenous Mexicans, indigenous Central Americans and indigenous South Americans are not Latino; in which case one could use Hispanic – but the word Hispanic ignores their indigenous identity to the Americas; in which case you can use the scientific term Amerindian.

    Colored – dated. should be “People of Color”, not “colored people”

    @With Love Glenn: Those are all true things we need to stop saying, though the terms aren’t exclusively white ones. Politicians of all races use them, except the word “colored.” I’ve only heard elderly people use that term. Nobody should use that term. Reminds me of my friend, Thandeka’s book “Learning to be White.” Check it out if you get a chance. Thandeka is an African-American professor of theology, philosophy, and culture. Wonderful woman, brilliant scholar. Her partner happens to be the novelist Stephen King’s daughter, Naomi, who is also an ordained Unitarian minister.

    Like


  468. I wish that people would ignore the trolls. Giving trolls more attention than those of us who want to have a genuine, intelligent discussion encourages the trolls and prevents us from having any meaningful exchange of thoughts and ideas. If you ignore the trolls, then they’ll go away.

    Like


  469. Charles Boot — –

    Thank you for your sincere input.

    Just one thing to ask you. Do you think that whites are the best judge of what would make POC feel uncomfortable or cringe?

    You said that you did not understand some of the point of the stuff on the list. Some of the other stuff in the list was interpreted in a vastly different way than people on the receiving end experience it. Do you think that you personally could determine what made another person feel uncomfortable? or if it reasonable that something should make a person feel uncomfortable or not?

    Even you said

    I think that your view here undermines the very purpose of your blog post, to get white people who may or may not be aware of the offensiveness of certain words and phrases they use to stop using them.

    I am not sure that that is really the intent – to make white people stop using it. The intent (I interpreted) is to make people aware that they might make other people feel uncomfortable or offend them.

    You can be rest assured that there is a segment, perhaps a very large segment of people that would feel offended by any or all of the words in that list ( or at least made to feel uncomfortable). Yet, for many of the words, you either said “No, I don’t think there is anything wrong with it” or “I don’t get that one.”. In those two cases, you did not become aware of why those words might be offensive to some. So did this post fail?

    Like


  470. @ Charles Boot

    Thank you for your long and thoughtful reply.

    Like Jefe pointed out, your experience of some of these terms is going to be different since you are not at the receiving end. No one is calling you exotic or trying to shut you up by quoting MLK (and it is almost ALWAYS the same quote). When White people use “whitey” on me it is never the Whitey Bulger sort. And so on.

    I have written posts for many of these terms. You can click on the links in the post to get a better idea of where I am coming from.

    Like


  471. I love language. Half of the terms mentioned here I understand and agree are inappropriate, but I hate to see perfectly good words from the English language thrown out because of the misuse and corruption by thoughtless and/or cruel people. Why give them the power? Many of the terms listed here could be used by people who are loving and kind, but apparently could be misconstrued by a sensitized individual. I am of mixed ancestry, though mostly Western European (and mostly French), but I have American Indian ancestry (like others, I do not like the term Native American, but it does not offend me) possibly on both sides of my lineage. I am also Jewish. Oh, and I am female. So, I do have strong feelings of protectiveness in these areas. I think females are maligned and mocked more than any other group. There are so many groups, professions, individuals who demand that legitimate terms be dropped from usage that it becomes quite exhausting. It happens to be one of my pet peeves, as a person who loves language, that so many people demand that words/terms be wiped from the English language..an example: patient, became client, then became customer. A patient is a patient is a patient, and there is no shame it it!!! The words that are ADDED to the language officially are mostly slang or gobbily gook made up be youths. I would never want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but I have feelings and opinions, too. I do not want to be discounted!!!!! Shalom!

    Like


  472. God Bless you for saying the mock spanish thing! I have no idea why that annoys me so much! I guess because people get so annoyed when I speak spanish to friends/family members but then they’ll be like “HOLA!” It drives me nuts!

    Like


  473. on Fri 25 Jul 2014 at 04:05:12 YurmOmisfatn-Black

    You must be white.
    It seems as though you care waaay too much about this

    Like


  474. on Fri 25 Jul 2014 at 08:49:36 Person of Candor

    Maybe the fact that Whites can’t say huge swaths of phrases in public is one of the reasons why they have to say them anonymously on the internet.

    Like


  475. ^ Why do they feel the compulsion to use these fingernail-scratching-chalkboard phrases and expressions in the first place?

    Anyhow, nobody said they couldn’t say them.

    Like


  476. I don’t like the F-word for Filipino. I had heard other young Filipino teens refer to themselves as this. And I didn’t think anything was wrong with saying it until I used this term in front of my grandmother and she slapped me hard across the voice. In her dialect, she admonished me for saying the F-word and threatened to whoop my behind if I said it again. She went on to say the F-word was used by white people during the war, but she didn’t say if it was WW2 or the Philippine-American War. She wasn’t even born yet at the turn of the 20th century. However, as a child, I remember her saying she heard some American soldiers make racist comments about Filipinos when she was a young woman during WW2. To this day, I will not say the F-word.

    Like


  477. Hi leigh204,

    Yes, I think the F-word is a dated word used during WWII, but unlike g00k, which was used in WWII to refer to Japanese, to refer to Koreans in the Korean war and to Vietnamese in the Vietnam War, so it had a life that extended well past WWII. There was less need to retain F-word.

    Filipinos were not classified the same as Japanese during WWII, so Americans had a different word for them. I would find it hard to believe that its history dates back to the Philippine-American war. It is more likely that they used the n-word back then.

    But I must admit I have met Fil-Ams that use it and have feel no wincing about it. They must have picked it up from older white Americans.

    Like


  478. What the? Oopsie, I just read my post once again. I meant, face instead of voice.

    Like


  479. @ Jefe:

    But I must admit I have met Fil-Ams that use it and have feel no wincing about it. They must have picked it up from older white Americans.

    To me, the F-word is akin to the N-word especially the negative connotation of it in the past. When I hear some Filipinos say it, it saddens me because it shows they don’t know their history.

    Like


  480. The author of this article seems pretty racist themself against white people. As if only whites are capable of racism. Like the words “reverse racism”. Their is no such thing just racism.

    Like


  481. @ Brett keplin

    Good point. “Reverse racism” is a term whites probably shouldn’t use, either. It implies that that form of racism is particularly bad because it’s against whites while plain ol’ racism against nonwhites is acceptable.

    Like


  482. Yes, Good Point.

    No one suggested that only Whites were racist, so “Reverse Racism” is probably a term that White People should consider not using. It normalizes racism from whites and portrays whites as victims of the system (that was in fact, created by whites), and as Kiwi said, implies that “Reverse Racism” is equally bad or worse than the “normal” version.

    Like


  483. Most of you are just as ignorant. Caucasian represents white people as a whole like Asian represents orientals such as, japanese, koren, etc. White people normally don’t care about skin color, just how people act. The N word is used to describe a way someone behaves not by there race. Some really are racist and ignorant but not usually.

    Like


  484. @ Kj mcbee

    The N word is used to describe a way someone behaves not by there race.

    I doubt you would call a white person the N-word. I wonder why.

    Like


  485. Kj mcbee

    Actually you might want to do some research on the word Caucasian and it’s true origin. On the N word for that matter. Once you are done then I will probably being throwing that ignorant comment back at you. That is if someone else does not beat me to it.

    Like


  486. correction begin not being

    Like


  487. @ Kj mcbee

    Oh, I see. So you whites are now the good stewards of that word. Well, I will sleep better tonight knowing that your firm, steady, benevolent collective white hands have wrested that word away from it’s former use as a weapon of oppression and hate and now wield it so responsibly.

    Okay sarcam off, now.

    Mabee, you should not have opened your stupid mouth. You don’t have a damn clue. Shut the fuk up and just listen to people for the next 12 months, you might learn something.

    Like


  488. @ Sharina

    That is if someone else does not beat me to it.

    Sorry, my dear, I will beat you to it.

    (Pending my moderated comment being set free, lol. :) )

    Like


  489. You can call white people the n word. There’s plenty of them, I also call the ones that don’t act as such white trash and I’m white. See I don’t take offense cause I kno there’s a difference and it lies within ones character.

    Like


  490. *Mcbee (not Mabee)

    Like


  491. I have a catch all phrase for you : American
    When I moved south from Brooklyn 20 years ago I expected to be going o a place that was “the same only different”. After all it was still the USA. …. Yikes!!!! I am still shocked at the prevalent attitude down here (North Carolina) that this is occupied territory and the sentiment is the South will rise again. I distance myself from those from NY that try to “commiserate” with me about the stupid southern people (we northerners gotta stick together). Whether it’s racial or regional it all makes me sick. Amerindian, LGBT, Southerner, Northerner and on and on just aggravate cultural differences in a negative way. They will always be there and the differences should be embraced. I’m not a Pollyanna with regard to racial inequities and injustices but the whole racial discord industry bothers me just as much. Hate mongering profiteers – both black and white and whatever – accumulate wealth at the expense of other people’s very real problems while they claim to be “on their side”.

    A wise person once said to me “diversity is divisive”.

    ‘Nuff said.

    Like


  492. on Sun 31 Aug 2014 at 23:05:44 Yurm Omisfatn-Black

    Oh, & btw. Ignore trolls as much as you want…….I’ll never leave.

    Like


  493. Kj

    That is great, but that does not change what it really refers to. Only people who have no clue will try to peddle the “it describes the way someone behaves” bs.

    Character has little to do with the actual meaning of a word. Only a truly ignorant person believes that.

    Like


  494. Yurm Omisfatn-Black

    Then don’t leave. Sit comment and do whatever. No one really cares.

    Like


  495. on Wed 3 Sep 2014 at 07:40:27 Yurm Omisfatn-Black

    Ahhhh, but you do care. I can practically feel the irritation in your post.
    Americans are so absurdly egotistical. Like every Christian assuming the second coming will occur in their lifetime, “we” think that with our far superior morals, the humanisims of 20,000 years can be eliminated.
    Why can’t we agree that we’re all different and most of us JUST DONT LIKE EACH OTHER!
    …….Like hatred and bigotry didn’t exist before La Amistad. Que my eye roll…..
    It’s bs like this that keeps our attention drawn away from the fact that we have MUCH more important issues in this country affecting people of all backgrounds.
    Race is a social construct. It’s been put in place for a reason, and apparently it’s working.

    Like


  496. on Wed 3 Sep 2014 at 07:45:43 Yurm Omisfatn-Black

    @personofcandor

    I say what I feel, when it is felt in the VERY location that I’m feeling it. If more people grew a thicker skin, words could be just like water on a ducks feathers.

    Like


  497. “Virginia law defined a Black person as a person with 1/16th African ancestry. Florida defined a black person as a person with 1/8th African ancestry. Alabama said, ‘You are Black if you got any African ancestry at all.’ But you know what this means? You can walk across a state line and literally, legally change race. Now what does race mean under those circumstances? You give me the power, I can make you any race I want you to be, because it is a social, political construction.”
    – James Horton, Benjamin Banneker Professor of American History,
    George Washington University

    So stop your propaganda about what white people shouldn’t say, and edit your title to “what people shouldn’t say”

    Like


  498. Yurm Omisfatn-Black

    If you are “feeling” emotions in my post them you have personal issues and that has nothing to do with me. Your first comment says as much but I don’t assume. Then your remaining comments confirm.

    But let me reiterate myself. Comment until your head exploids. I could careless because no one is stopping you.

    Like


  499. Good post.

    I randomly stumbled across here while searching for info on a specific Japanese anthropological study. Interesting that my search took me to this page.

    Anyway, I am always interested in hearing stuff like this. I have to admit, I use “inner city” quite a lot. Does it sound bad? I use it as a synonym for “downtown” and didn’t realize it may have another connotation. I’ll try to avoid using it in the future.

    Like


  500. Exactly what are my comments confirming?
    Will you acknowledge that you yourself are in fact a racist?
    How much lithium does it take you to not feel emotion from reading?
    What about the fact that after my last retort your point has become moot?
    What about your plans to add a grammar/English class to your continuing education?

    I thought was a discussion about you telling people how to think, act and speak?
    I had no idea attempting slander on assumptions of the mental/emotional states of others became the talk of the hour.

    Like


  501. Yurm

    Your comments confirm that you are a basket case.

    No, because I am not racist and have said little to indicate such.

    Why should I feel emotions from someone I don’t know or care about?

    My point is only moot if you knew what it was. Though a moot point as you claim yet you are still rambling about it.

    I was waiting on you to divulge your plans on adding grammar/English class to your continuing education.

    Please quote where I was telling people how to think, talk, and speak? While you are at it “I thought was a” is not a good look when trying to lecture other ongrammar/English. Lol

    Slander requires that something is false and assumption requires no proof. None of which I went about without proof, but sense you are oblivious to this let me enlighten you.

    A) You come into chat going on about people can ignore the trolls because you will never leave.

    B) You assumed, yes you assumed, that I felt irritated by your comment. A feeling or emotion to a comment with no bases other than I dared respond.

    C) You went on to show emotional butt hurt by responding with a petty insults and all over me saying comment as much as you want and no one cares. A response that tells me not much is going on mentally upstairs.

    All in all I gather you want someone to care. Plus your mental/emotional states becomes the talk of the hour when you put it on display. :)

    Like


  502. Correction since*

    Like


  503. on Wed 24 Sep 2014 at 05:17:23 Yurm Omisfatn-Black

    I had a very thorough response typed out and then the webpage crashed and had to reload. It’s late and I’m tired so I’m not gonna re type
    I do apologize for my insults. They were out of line and off-topic. I hope you can believe that my apology is honest.
    My first post was deleted so I can understand where you thought I came in talking about trolls…”going on” as you put it.
    I would I love to break down every statement you’ve made so far (other than my admitted petty insults ) but what I’ve learned from our dealings so far is that I will get nowhere, but will say this.
    You ma’am, are a hypocrite, a racist, and I bid you farewell.

    Like


  504. Yurm

    Your last sentence alone indicates you are not sorry and sadly saying those things won’t make it true for me. Toodles. :)

    Like


  505. I’m white. I don’t find “Caucasian” to be offensive, just outdated. The term represents the people living in the geographic Caucasus region of Eurasia, who, coincidentally, are extremely diverse themselves. “Caucasian” is a very broad term. While many Caucasians also happen to be White, the term “Caucasian” does not encompass entirely one race, nationality or language, just like the terms “American”, “African”, or “European”.

    Like


  506. @Roland

    True, but a lot of people are not aware of that. So when they use the term they use it with the express idea that it means white.

    Like


  507. @Roland

    I’m white. I don’t find “Caucasian” to be offensive, just outdated.

    It seems like you missed the point of the post.

    Most, if not all the words above generally do not seem odd, strange or offensive to most whites. However, when whites use them around others, many would find it odd, strange, or in some cases, offensive. The point was that whites may want to consider what those words mean from other than a white-centric point of view, and consider the listener (and not just the speaker), esp. if the listener might experience those words from other than a white-centric point of view.

    “Caucasian” feels like an attempt from a white person to appear colour-blind. To a listener who knows that the speaker is not actually colour-blind, it feels odd.

    Like


  508. I believe that you are all missing the point that NO ONE should be saying these things. And furthermore,by the title of this blog, I assume the author and most of the posters are racist themselves.

    Like


  509. Raciss and lovin’ it! What of it? Try it, you may like it! Everyone needs a hobby!

    Like


  510. In racial discussions, “Caucasian” and “Negro” are use as technical terms to make the speaker appear to have scientific weight behind what is really a political position.

    More and more non white people are understanding how this works and how to do it like white people have for generations.

    For example; adding the suffix “oid” to any word automatically conveys “scientific credibility” and hence tends to validate the speakers position even when its a position lacking logic, or they just made it up on the spot…

    Its not magic; it just looks like it to people unaware of the mechanics of language, which are usually the nonwhite people.

    Quest for Fire.

    Like


  511. Yurm Omisfat

    “I assume the author and most of the posters are racist themselves.”—You assume a lot don’t you. I guess if you had half a brain you would assume less.

    Like


  512. @Yurm Omisfat: “You’re Mom Is Fat” For real? LOL at your username.

    Like


  513. @Mary Burrell

    “Yurm Omisfat: “You’re Mom Is Fat” For real? LOL at your username.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    What about his/her other username?

    Here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/10/stuff-white-people-probably-shouldnt-say/#comment-255201

    Like


  514. @Mary and Just Me

    I did not catch that at all. Wow. How he put it is what allowed it to avoid moderation….at least I hope.

    Like


  515. @Just Me: I know he is a cretin troll i can’t get mad at his/her foolishness.

    Like


  516. Hahahahaha! Good catch, Mary.

    Like


  517. Would “Your mom is fat and black” be the racial equivalent of “Your mom is anorexic and white”? Just a mere question, that’s all.

    Like


  518. Well the Kardashian sisters qualify for this post “KKK we let black men in.” How stupid and clueless but then again they are not know for having brains.

    Like


  519. Khloe Kardashian tweeted that foolishness and after some backlash on social media she took the tweet down.

    Like


  520. Mary Burrell

    They let the whole world in if the dollar sign matches their taste. If you know what I’m saying.

    Like


  521. @sharinalr: Yes, I agree.

    Like


  522. WHITE LIE: It implies that everything that come from white is acceptable.

    Like


  523. I’m sorry, but as a “White American” I feel like this is extremely racist. I can’t quote MLK, or ask someone where they are from, or say that the new exchange student comes from a different cultural background and doesn’t want to eat the cafeteria food without being “a typical racist hick”? This is insanity. Until people stop looking for racism everywhere it will ALWAYS exsist.

    Like


  524. ^^^^^Sorry but what definition of racist would any of this apply to? The word is just a throw out tool at this point because people want to use it for any and everything.

    If you read the heading it is things you probably should say because you sound xyz. Not thing not to say. It is suggesting that is all. Like how people suggest when you should not leave the house a certain way. Quote MLK all you like, but do you know the meaning behind much of what he says or do you do it to shut up an argument along the lines of race? You can ask a person where they are from, but don’t be alarmed if they decided to respond rudely. You can say the new exchange student comes from a different cultural background, but don’t be alarmed if he tells you that he is from new york and that you are indeed “a typical hick”.

    “Until people stop looking for racism everywhere it will ALWAYS exsist.”—Do take your own advice or atleast type without anger next time so you can avoid contradicting your stance.

    Like


  525. @Anna Stevens,

    You are free to say and use all of those words. There is no law prohibiting it.

    But, as most whites 60 years ago saw no problem with using the “n-word” and 40 years ago, most saw no problem using the dehumanizing Asian slurs (eg, g-00k, ch-1-nk, j-@-p, etc.). They seem to understand TODAY why they feel uncomfortable to some people and avoid using them in mixed company.

    There is still no law prohibiting using those words. Do you still use those words?

    Likewise, the words in the list in this post make many people wince, or even feel offended. There are consequences to using those words – at the very least, you may turn people off. You may not care. In that case, continue to use them. But please don’t claim that no one advised you about being sensitive about using those words.

    Like


  526. Look the problem is you can’t say that because I’m white and I said it is why it’s offensive. It should be just as offensive if an Asian-American or Latin-American said it. Get it? My best friend moved here from Costa Rica and came to a small private academy in Mississippi I know all about people being racist and insensitive to other cultures and races, but it isn’t just white people. Black people and white people would tell her the just “loooooved her Mexican accent”. So it’s not just white people.

    And on the “racist” subject. My point is, when you assume that there is a specific meaning behind something someone says based solely off of the color of their skin then you’re being racist.

    Like


  527. “I know all about people being racist and insensitive to other cultures and races, but it isn’t just white people.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Anna S.

    If I had fifty-cents for every white person that hobbles in here with the belief that people – other than WHITE people – can be RACIST, I (and probably 999 other black folks) would probably never ever mention the word “reparations” ever again.

    Yes, all people can be offensive. But only white people can be especially offensive — they’ve been at it – to their benefit – for some time.

    I seriously doubt anyone can match their knack for being what only white people can be — violent, oppressive, RACIST.

    Hey Thwack,

    You appear to be pretty close to white people….. why is it that so many of them lack a true understanding of who and what a racist (aka white supremacist) is??

    Like


  528. “I know all about people being racist and insensitive to other cultures and races, but it isn’t just white people.”

    Being from Mississippi you are probably an expert at deflecting racism when you are accused of racist behaviour. They train em’ young.

    You appear to be pretty close to white people….. why is it that so many of them lack a true understanding of who and what a racist (aka white supremacist) is??

    They aren’t, they just love playing dumb. Many black people fall for it. Even the seemingly white ‘anti-racist’ is guilty, they are just not actively practicing racism at the time. This can change however at any time, hence, they are all racist. The really ‘dumb’ ones are the blatantly racist ones because they do-not play ‘dumb’ like the others do.

    Like


  529. @Anna Stevens

    Anything you say to white people that they see as criticism is offensive, so my advice to you is write a post about things black people probably should not say and move on.

    “It should be just as offensive if an Asian-American or Latin-American said it. Get it?”—People get it, but the likelihood of offense is slim. Only you are going all cry baby over it.

    The other people do it too is a straw man argument. No one is claiming other people don’t, but the purpose is to point out when white people do it and to show how offensive it can be to other groups.

    “My point is, when you assume that there is a specific meaning behind something someone says based solely off of the color of their skin then you’re being racist.”—Actually this is plain assuming dear. It is not racist to assume. Please educate yourself on the actual meaning of racist acts before just throwing it around like salt. Furthermore the post does not assume the meaning behind the words when a white person says it. It is simply saying it is offensive when said regardless of your meaning behind it.

    Like


  530. @Herneith

    “They aren’t, they just love playing dumb. Many black people fall for it. Even the seemingly white ‘anti-racist’ is guilty, they are just not actively practicing racism at the time.”—Exactly!!

    Like


  531. “Just Me seems to really hate thwack & i don’t get it. ”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Just add it to the list of zillion of other things you see HERE, but can’t get.

    That’s a clue right there, too bad this will probably go over your head, as usual.

    Like


  532. @Just Me

    ROFL!!!

    Like


  533. @ Anna Stevens

    Most people probably should not say most of these, but in my experience it is mostly White people who say them. And when they do, it comes off a certain way since it strengthens a racist worldview that favours and excuses their position in society. It is like how no one should tell fat jokes, but it still comes off different when a thin person tells one.

    Like


  534. To Jefe:

    They seem to understand TODAY why they feel uncomfortable to some people and avoid using them in mixed company.

    In my experience, at least in California in the last 20 years is that whites do not use the words n*gg*r, ch*nk, or g**k in the company of other whites. The last dozen so times I have heard n*gg*r or ch*nk it was spoken by people of color. (I can not remember the last time I heard g**k, a holdover from the Vietnam war…I wonder if the origins of the term came from the Korean war (as in Korea or Korean people are self described as Hangook)

    There is still no law prohibiting using those words.

    Not true in much of Europe, and there have even been arrests in the US:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92644

    To Abagond:

    Most people probably should not say most of these…
    I certainly agree with this.. n*gg*r or ch*nk uttered by anyone is vulgar and uncouth at bare minimum. Even a seemingly innocuous term of endearment can sound ridiculous. Ponder President Obama saying to Eric Holder “You’re my n*ggah” (Although I can see Tyler Perry using that in a skit 10 years from now..)

    , but in my experience it is mostly White people who say them.
    That may be very true in the New York area.. it is much more common for people of color to use those words.

    Like


  535. To Abagond:

    It is like how no one should tell fat jokes, but it still comes off different when a thin person tells one.

    True but fat jokes from someone who is portly just seem sad… Chris Rock was eventually compelled to not use a skit that made frequent use of n*gg*r.. to me that skit was never funny.

    Like


  536. To Abagond:

    I my comment in moderation (possibly because I used the word H@g00k) below should read

    but in my experience it is mostly White people who say them.

    That may be very true in the New York area.. although it seems more common for people of color in California to use those words.

    Like


  537. @Just me

    I use to think he was clueless, but he is fully aware of what he is doing. He admitted to kiwi he likes to troll at times. What Herneith said fully applies to him. I will go into detail later, but don’t let the naive act fool you.

    Like


  538. @Anna Stevens

    To expound on what Abagond replied:

    Look the problem is you can’t say that because I’m white and I said it is why it’s offensive. It should be just as offensive if an Asian-American or Latin-American said it.

    – No one said that you cannot say those things because you are white. The point is that white people use these terms all the time, and like you, they see nothing wrong, or even odd about it.

    – Yes, it can also be offensive if Asian Americans or Latin Americans, or even blacks used any of those terms. More often than not, it is more awkward or odd than offensive if coming from them. As Abagond tried to illustrate, it is like one fat person calling another fat person fatso, piggy, etc. Or like someone missing an arm calling someone missing a leg “crippled”. It does not have the same feeling as if a lean person called a fat person names or if an able-bodied person called someone crippled.

    Sure, we can see some blacks feel offended by being addressed by the n-word from a Latino, and in the next breath use g-00-k, j-@-p or ch-1-nk towards someone else. Or we can see an Asian-American using Mock Spanish to a perceived Latino just after being the recipient of Ching Chong from a black person, and then the same Latino use mock Ebonics in the same day to someone else. Indeed, it is wrong if anyone does it. But, as the Abagond pointed out, the impact is more uncomfortable if white people say these things. And as Sharina pointed out, that is a straw man argument.

    I believe that many of them learn this behaviour from whites. They are mimicking whites.

    – Most blacks, Asians and Latinos, even if they have used some of those terms in the past, will understand instantly why they are odd, or would make people wince or be perceived as offensive. However, most of whites coming on this blog make comments insisting that they are not, defend their right to use the words, and put the onus on the listener, making it their problem.

    If blacks, Asians, latinos and Natives do not understand why those words are or at least can be cringetastic, then they are likely very white-washed.

    My best friend moved here from Costa Rica and came to a small private academy in Mississippi I know all about people being racist and insensitive to other cultures and races, but it isn’t just white people.

    Ha-ha, you just committed one of the behaviours listed in the post
     “Some of my best friends are black” – mainly said by clueless racists.
    (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/07/31/some-of-my-best-friends-are-black/)
    The corollaries could be “My best friend, who is Latino” or even “My wife is Asian”.

    Can you understand why your making a statement like that might feel odd or make someone wince or cringe when they hear that?

    If not, then you missed the main point of the post. It was not about those statements being odd, cringeworthy, arrogant or even offensive just because they are said by white people. But the impact is different when white people use them. It is because that each of those terms normalize whiteness, and makes everything else strange, or even screwed up. . Instead of lecturing people about how racist they are by making up such a list, just sit back and learn why these words make people wince.

    Finally, this list varies from person to person. This is Abagond’s. Others may have different lists.

    If you find such a list offensive yourself, why don’t you, as Sharina suggested, make up a list of “stuff people probably shouldn’t say to white people”?

    Like


  539. @UM,

    Indeed, some of those terms seem to be more popular from a certain generation.

    J@p came from WWII.
    G0*K was used during the Korean War, and extended to be used in the Vietnam war. Indeed, the persons who use that term tend to be from that generation (ie, born around 1930 – 1955). And I think you might be right. G**K is probably a shortened version of the Korean word Hang0*k, the word for Korea. G**k itself means “country”.

    The example you gave about Idaho is not specifically about that word, but that it constituted malicious harassment on the basis of race. Yes, the person was arrested. However, I think the grounds for arrest are really thin, as it must be demonstrated that the perpetrator engaged in malicious harassment to cause injury or damage to property or the intent to do so. Any judge ruling that as constituting criminality would be setting a dangerous precedent.

    In any case, use of any of those words would not be criminal in the USA unless it was performed in conjunction with the intent to commit another criminal act.

    By the way, are you scouring online articles about this all the time on an ongoing basis? You seem to like to pull up examples like these to support your points (even if they are not really supporting your points).

    BTW, when POC use those terms, I think it is more
    – to make a ridiculing remark or scorn whites for using the terms
    – an attempt to gain ownership over abusive terms so that whites will not use them in an abusive or dehumanizing manner.

    Like


  540. I say what I mean, I mean what I say, and it means and is worth just as much as your words. No more, no less.

    Like


  541. To try to prove or disprove that is neither possible or logical.

    Like


  542. Because you then are trying to prove or disprove my own thoughts. Which I may do , but you can’t.

    Like


  543. btw I am picking on you for a certain reason, that is my white brain is no different than yours jackbur5.

    Like


  544. “What Herneith said fully applies to him.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    @ Sharina
    Of course it does. Which is why I treat some antagonizing foolishness (and fools) the way that I do. The others, I just ignore.

    Like


  545. Folks, don’t be fooled! These people get upset when you call them racist because deep down they know that systemic white racism is wrong and they have practiced racism constantly or at some point in their lives. Hence, when you refer to them as such, they become upset or angry. I’ve seen white women burst into tears when being called racist. I’ve seen white men become enraged. They choose when and where to practice racism, some may claim to be anti-racist activists(an oxymoron), but by virtue of their whiteness, can fluctuate between the two depending on their life experience.

    Like


  546. @Just me

    I never use to understand why some black would ignore white commenters, but believe me I do now.

    Like


  547. “I never use to understand why some black would ignore white commenters, but believe me I do now.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    For me, watching ice melt (or paint dry) is a much greater rewarding experience than talking to the delusional.

    Like


  548. Just me

    “For me, watching ice melt (or paint dry) is a much greater rewarding experience than talking to the delusional.”—-True but you have to admit that it is hilarious watching the delusional pretend they have a leg to stand on or a clue in the universe.

    Like


  549. @ everyone

    If you are going to admit to trolling please be smart enough to:

    1. Not admit to trolling others on said blog and then try to later minimize your trolling to two people.

    2. Not admit to trolling when that language can get you banned.

    3. Be good enough at trolling to not loose your temper. As the goal of trolling is to have the intended party loose their tempers not have the intended party laughing at you.

    and last but not least….

    4. You can’t troll people who ignore you.

    Like


  550. ^^^^^I could happily provide you with proof of everything you requested 10 times over, but it would be a waste of time because you would simply deny it or make some excuse for it. Even with it staring you right in the face.

    As to you being a racist, I suggest you read this post. You are not past 1.
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/04/how-to-tell-if-a-white-person-is-a-recovering-racist/

    Like


  551. ^^^^I never said I was ignoring you. When I decide to do so then I just do it.

    Like


  552. http://herneithmyblog.com/2012/04/21/the-day-in-the-life-of-a-white-racist-troll/

    How the racist troll spends their days whilst battling militant black folk on black oriented blogs!

    Like


  553. Abagond,

    I think George has some rather major issues he brings down upon himself – at least in cyberspace and on your blog in particular.

    George interjects himself into topics/comments that have no individual bearing on him whatsoever, makes it about himself (a typical white trait), has a hissy fit upon finding out that not everyone here thinks like he does, becomes argumentative, loses the argument (inevitably always!) and then succumbs to loser statements one can overhear in a bar full of angry liberal white racists.

    How much more of this type of outburst are you going to tolerate from this … (person?)

    “shove them right up that plaid skirt of yours. deuces.”

    IMO he went waaaay over the top here… No telling where he’ll go next!

    I have to ask you, Abagond. Is this the sort of tolerance (/behavior) you wish your site to be known to be tolerate of?

    Like


  554. @Just me

    He has said worse, but I think he is an example. Because he is such a great example is why I choose not to let his nonsense bother me. His manipulative behavior is one to be studied. Those tactics are ones that fool most blacks.

    Plus abagond I believe this is the idea abagond has behind certain people and trolls. I could be wrong, but mainly to continue a flow of opposing views.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/my-philosophy-on-trolls/

    Like


  555. “LOL. you should study me, you might learn something.”—I have learned a great deal studying you, which is why I can successfully say that every single label I have given you is true with proof. You are manipulative to the point where you will even throw another white commenter under the bus to carry out your charade.

    “but you keep on labeling & lying then crying accusations that others are doing exactly what you do…just another day in the life right?”—No dear that is you. Though it is the habit of narcissist to attribute the worse in their behaviors to others as a means of not addressing your flaws.

    Like


  556. “you can take all your silly labels & racist accusations & shove them right up that plaid skirt of yours.”

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Sharina,

    What “plaid” skirt is (delusional, deluded and full of denial) George referring to?
    Notice how he creates ALL his own troubles and then disavows any responsibility for his self-induced predicaments?

    There’s probably of pic of him next to the word INCORRECT in Webster’s dictionary.

    Lets talk about the wind. It’s a more worthy subject of discussion!

    Like


  557. @Just me

    Exactly! I am waiting on him to realize the skirt is not plaid, but African print. He will go on for days with his delusions. I wager his family may want to consider putting him away.

    Like


  558. “now i know better than to take the bait, i’ll just sit back & laugh at you. because i’ve been down that rabbit hole before & the rabbits told me yer crazy.”—You suffer from delusions of grandeur. You are not smart enough to troll properly let alone smart enough to figure me out. Besides if I had thrown out any bait you would have already lost. You have no control over your temper.

    Furthermore I won’t lose any sleep over what your rabbit says. Though if you are now talking to animals I suggest you see someone quickly.

    Like


  559. Jefe:

    By the way, are you scouring online articles about this all the time on an ongoing basis? You seem to like to pull up examples like these to support your points (even if they are not really supporting your points).

    Even if they are not supporting my points..? This was your statement: “There is still no law prohibiting using those words.” Since this is a blog has many international visitors, including yourself, I didn’t limit myself to US laws. One can be convicted in Europe for the use of racist language (Don’t know about Russia or other Eastern European countries but certainly Britain and France..). There are multiple examples (some of which I have linked in recent posts) since you didn’t reply to that point I suspect you know that’s the case. As for “scouring the internet” I had been looking for examples of how hate speech laws are applied in Europe and the US in relation to the attack against Charlie Hebdo so I already knew about the case against Lonny Rae.

    The example you gave about Idaho is not specifically about that word, but that it constituted malicious harassment on the basis of race. Yes, the person was arrested. However, I think the grounds for arrest are really thin, as it must be demonstrated that the perpetrator engaged in malicious harassment to cause injury or damage to property or the intent to do so. Any judge ruling that as constituting criminality would be setting a dangerous precedent.

    True technically in this case, but the prosecutor expressly stated that he brought charges because of the language. The case was brought to court… the accused was found not guilty by a jury for the hate crime (which potentially carried a 5 year sentence..) but guilty for another charge and sentenced to 7 days in jail. This was subsequently over turned on appeal.

    In any case, use of any of those words would not be criminal in the USA unless it was performed in conjunction with the intent to commit another criminal act.

    Janice Barton in Michigan was brought up on charges for using the word “sp*cs” spoken to her mother… stating I wish these “sp*cs would learn English” (the table nearby had Latinos speaking Spanish..) She was sentenced to 45 days in jail (and served 4). The charge was a local ordinance forbidding “insulting conduct” in a public place.

    So yes I would say not at all common in regular US civilian courts.. but it has happened…

    However, in the US Military (covered under the UCMJ quite different from US civilian courts) I know personally of two cases where white guys were charged for the use of racial/ethnic slurs… one being one cited for an article 15 (with the loss of rank and a fine) for using the word n*gg*r in an insulting fashion and the other said “f*cking gr**k” to someone of Greek descent.

    BTW, when POC use those terms, I think it is more
    – to make a ridiculing remark or scorn whites for using the terms
    – an attempt to gain ownership over abusive terms so that whites will not use them in an abusive or dehumanizing manner.

    I have heard them used as a term of endearment, example.. one Vietnamese American man to another at a party a fews years ago.. “hey man I know you… I haven’t seen you forever.. you were my n*gg*h in high school”. But I have definitely heard the words used where they were meant as slurs… a Korean American woman I know speaking to someone on the phone who spoke with a Chinese accent… “Are you a g*d d*mn ch*nk?…you f*cking stupid ch*nk…!” said in the presence also of a friend of mine who is Chinese American. I know of multiple other examples. This of course is strictly anecdotal and limited to Northern California. Rural Midwest / Southeastern US quite possibly a different story.

    Like


  560. @UM

    I had been looking for examples of how hate speech laws are applied in Europe and the US in relation to the attack against Charlie Hebdo so I already knew about the case against Lonny Rae.

    Yeah, I was wondering why you draw these articles, but this wasn’t the first time – you’re always doing that.

    Well, the threat of criminality is certain enough to make people fear the r-word.

    Whereas I think people should not be using those words, I don’t think it should be criminalized, esp. on the basis of race (ie, one using certain words identifying with one race, v. identifying with another race), unless it is performed in conjunction with another crime (eg, assault or destruction of property). I do think it can be used in a civil suit, eg, discrimination.

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  561. Unbelievable yet not surprising. I’ve been a member of one particular site for over ten years now and there was a discussion of Benedict Cumberbatch fpr using the word “colored” to refer to black actors. I said he should’ve known better, but someone said he’s from England and it doesn’t apply to him.

    Anyway, then another person brought up the word “Oriental” and that there’s nothing wrong with saying it as it’s not as racist or not as offensive. I highly disagreed and said Asians, at least where I come from, don’t refer to themselves as Orientals and a lot of the members, I’m assuming white people because some of them have stated where they’re from, said I was too sensitive.

    When I explained I was called an Oriental among other racial slurs, they said the word was not a big deal. Right. Not a big deal. What white people don’t seem to understand is that if someone tells them that a word shouldn’t be said because it’s offensive AND wrong, they should refrain from saying it, but no. They have to be pigheaded about it.

    Like


  562. Ask them if how they feel if people use the R-word towards them.

    Is it offensive?
    Are they too sensitive?
    Is it not a big deal?

    Ask them who decides what is a racial slur.

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  563. @ leigh204

    Cumberbatch apologized quite strongly for his tweet (a little over the top in my opinion). So these guys “defending” him is a little strange. I agree that one shouldn’t use terms that are considered offensive by those they are applied to (unless of course, you want to insult them). On the other hand I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a reason why something is offensive. Especially to condemn “coloured” seems strange to me as it is so close to “person of colour”.

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  564. Kartoffel, “colored” harks back to the days of Jim crow segregation. So not only is the word dated, but it also reminds the listener that the white speaker is drawing a demarcation line, one that is separate but not equal.

    It will sound demeaning and disrespectful if used today as it implies the speaker has a jim crow mindset.

    Now “coloured” as used in apartheid south Africa is different. It refers to a group that was separate from both whites & blacks, so it still has use and meaning post apartheid.

    But “colored” in the USA does not have any new meaning post jim crow segregation. It does not mean people of colour.

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  565. That makes sense for the US. But should Cumberbatch be held to that standard (assuming that “colored/coloured” doesn’t have an equally negative connotaion in England)?

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  566. Cumberbatch already filmed 12 years as a slave & was in the usa talking abt black actors on usa tv. How can he have worked in the usa with black actors doing productions on African American history and still not be aware that the word “colored” was locked up in the attic vault since 1967?

    Like


  567. I don’t think he wasn’t aware of it. And he definitly shouldn’t use the term in the US/ in an US context. But if I recall correctly he used it on twitter in regards to british actors. I guess he should have followed the US rules anyway as he probably has many followers from the US.

    Like


  568. Kartoffel,

    The word has already been deemed inappropriate in Britain.

    In 2006, sacked British MP Bernard Jenkin came under fire for using the word “coloured”. This article pointed out that black Britons already found that word offensive in 2006 and felt that they can openly condemn leading political figures for using it.

    Is the word ‘coloured’ offensive?
    (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6132672.stm)

    The CNN video features a Black Briton reporter condemning the use of coloured.
    Why the term ‘colored’ is so offensive

    (http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2015/01/27/history-of-the-word-colored-orig-mg.cnn)

    It seems that it has long been regarded as offensive or impolite in Britain as well. Cumberbatch should be doubly aware of the problems with that word given his exposure to the USA and African American history.

    Why do you think that White Britons should be excused for feigning ignorance?

    Many white Americans think it is no big deal either.

    Like


  569. In that case I don’t think they should get a pass. If “coloured” is considered offensive in Britain for its own reasons I have no problem with it. I do have a problem when american-forged rules get transported to a completle different settings, where they don’t make sense anymore.

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  570. @Kartoffel,

    He was discussing the opportunities of black British actors in the US, and not on twitter, but in a live televised interview with a black American host.

    “I think as far as colored actors go, it gets really difficult in the UK, and I think a lot of my friends have had more opportunities here [in the U.S.] than in the UK, and that’s something that needs to change.”

    (http://youtu.be/lYt-K8h3gbw) @23:30 (23:28 – 23:38)

    Like


  571. @Kartoffel,

    Britons still use the term “Red Indian” to refer to Native Americans. It makes my skin crawl, but I notice that most Britons have no negative connotation with that term. Given that they are referring to people in the USA, how should one react?

    In the past I told British ex-colleagues in HK that that term was not appropriate to use to refer to people in the USA. They treated me like I was being ridiculous.

    I give them a pass once or twice, but after telling them multiple times, what is your recommendation on handling it?

    Like


  572. @Kartoffel

    I do have a problem when american-forged rules get transported to a completle different settings, where they don’t make sense anymore.

    Let’s say we had a white American actor who had recently completed a UK produced film about the history of Asian Britons. Is it then OK for that white American actor to be interviewed on live British television and discuss the difference in opportunities for “Paki” actors in the UK vs. in the USA? Should he get a pass or should he know better?

    Like


  573. On the first issue.

    I would argue with them why the term is inapporpriate due to Britain’s history in North America. But I wouldn’t say: “This is considered offensive in the US, so you can’t use the term either.”

    On the second issue.

    You convinced me on the Benedict Cumberbatch case. I wasn’t familiar with the context of the quote and the connotaion of the word “coloured” in Britian.

    Like


  574. @leigh204

    I’ve had that kind of experience with white people too (you’re wrong for what you feel, you’re too sensitive, you’re ridiculous, etc.). That’s part of why I try to avoid socializing with them now. They can wonder why people of color don’t want to be friends with them or even be around them.

    Like


  575. I will add my little two cents in regards to the Cumberbath incident. I really cant get too worked up about this, it was an honest mistake and he apologized. His apology was sincere. But i was just kind of baffled that someone so young would use such an outdated label. Oh well i will let the chap live.

    Like


  576. I was on another comment board and was participating in the discourse about Cumberbatch and many whites didn’t see what the fuss was and many said they refer to Asians as “Oriental” that to me is outdated as well.

    Like


  577. My reaction to the Cumberbatch thing is pretty much the same as Mary’s. He gave a real apology, so he clearly understands his mistake. I find it odd that he would use such a term in the first place – it is from before his time. It made me wonder if maybe he grew up in South Africa or if it is still in use in private among the British upper crust. It did not even make my list in the post above because I barely ever hear it used.

    Like


  578. @MB,
    Like “Colored”, “Oriental” is a dated term which harks back to a similar era. However, the problem is not that it is just a dated term. While Colored invokes associations with Jim Crow segregation, Oriental invokes notions of inscrutability, Yellowface and even yellow peril. It also invokes association with the period during the Asian Exclusion Acts and making Asians ineligible for citizenship (and therefore, having no right to stay in the USA). It has some very negative associations not unlike “colored”.

    However, “Colored” and “Oriental” are not quite as much a derogatory slur as some other words (like the ones banned on this blog). They just both hark to an era when whites decided that other parts of the population were to be accorded subordinate status.

    It should be noted that it was never popular for Asians to refer to themselves as “Oriental”, even when it “enjoyed” wide usage. During that time period, they normally would use ethnic or national labels. When they started to promote pan-Asian identity (1970s), then the word Asian was chosen. The word “Oriental” was always a word that whites chose to enforce on other people.

    To tell the truth, I don’t think Asian-American is an ideal term either. It was a late 1970s political creation similar to the term “Hispanic”.

    The following link explains problems with using the following terms to label people: Oriental, Indian, Spanish, Colored & Mulatto.
    (http://racerelations.about.com/od/understandingrac1/a/racialnamestoavoid.htm)

    Having said that, we cannot deny that such terms are still being used officially, eg, the NAACP. But Washington State and New York State has already purged “Oriental” from all of their documents.

    Finally, agree that Cumberbatch made an honest apology. However, I still don’t know if he made a slip of the tongue or if he seriously and honestly had no clue about the history of the term. I suppose it is possible, as many non-Asians are unaware about the dehumanizing history of the term “Oriental”.

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  579. @Kartoffel,

    I would argue with them why the term is inapporpriate due to Britain’s history in North America.

    This is tricky. I find it very problematic to tell British people things like this as they may be insulted that people are telling them something about the use in “their” language. This is not too much unlike white Americans reacting negatively to anyone telling them what words they should or should not use.

    But I wouldn’t say: “This is considered offensive in the US, so you can’t use the term either.”

    This is tricky too. I would say something like “I don’t feel comfortable with that term” but I then get lambasted for being oversensitive or being pedagogical. It’s MY problem, not theirs.

    Of course I am aware when people who have no cultural context to understand what they are doing, but then I will try to use the opportunity to educate them (of course, nicely and politely).

    For example, one summer in Washington, DC (pre-Obama era) I was helping a friend of mine who worked for a travel agency to lead some tour groups around DC. Once I was conducting a tour for a group from Singapore and any casual observer will notice the large black and multiracial presence there. One of the passengers asked me “How do Americans feel about N166ahs? Do they accept them?” I know that the first noun referred to “whites” and the second referred to “blacks”.
    I told him that first of all, they are all equally Americans, and secondly, the other term he used is a historically abusive term that is no longer used. I was familiar with Singapore, so I asked him would it be appropriate for Chinese Singaporeans to call themselves Singaporean (only) and Malay Singaporeans and Indian and Eurasian Singaporeans by a negative racial label that implies they are not Singaporean.

    So I would rephrase his question by saying that he could ask
    “How do white Americans feel about Black Americans?” Of course I cannot answer that with a simple answer, only that there is a wide and complicated situation regarding that and the country still has to work that out every day.

    He was fine with the reply, but WHOA if you try to use this technique on white Americans or white Britons.

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  580. “This is tricky. I find it very problematic to tell British people things like this as they may be insulted that people are telling them something about the use in “their” language.”

    True. Probably that is a discussion the British need to have among themselves. But I guess there is a way to frame one’s concern without coming off as “preaching from the outside”.

    “This is tricky too. I would say something like “I don’t feel comfortable with that term” but I then get lambasted for being oversensitive or being pedagogical. It’s MY problem, not theirs.”

    Things like “you’re oversensitive” obviously end all serious discussion. It shows that they aren’t interested in arguments anyway.

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  581. I havent seen the interview from Benedict but I believe he was in the U.S when he said it, a place where this has historically been used in terms of distinguishing black from white? I dont know, I suppose it is possible he heard it used when he was out there and it was in his subconscious and he used it, even though I thought this terminology was outdated even in the US.

    Equally though, people of a certain generation in the UK do still use the word coloured as they will often say that the word ‘black’ sounds too harsh. I think as well in current times, they feel it covers a multitude of people such is the mixing pot in big cities such as London, Manchester and Liverpool. You will also hear people of this generation refer to 3rd or even 4th generation black children as West Indian – another generic and incorrect statement that many of my friends find irritating. They are black but they are British as per their birthright. Many of them have never even been to the West Indies OR some are African or other ‘black’ decent and still get labelled that way lol.

    My concern in all this is that the message that he was trying to get across about lack of opportunities for black actors has got lost as the media once again manipulates things to their own end. I find that a little to convenient myself…

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  582. Like Omnipresent said Cumberbatch was trying to speak on the lack of diversity in for black actors and this overshadowed that and it just took a life of it’s own after that. I think the media deliberately started this race baiting.

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  583. Mary:

    Yep, a distraction technique – blink and you will not notice it.

    Like


  584. This is stupid. I have so many issues with this. Like calling domething exotic. If its not common like a food abc not seen dveryday where u live then yes it is exotic. People in other parts of the world can say food that i eat is exotic and i really dont care because to them it is exotic just like they are exotic to me. Maybe thd author of this should check out a dictionary instead of blaming everything on racism. Total bs

    Like


  585. @ Gator

    Erm, the issue is calling a person exotic, not calling an object exotic.

    Like


  586. I remember an episode of “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy” where they team was helping out a Korean guy who told them his girlfriend liked exotic food like pasta. They came up with the idea of him serving her Moroccan food, which she didn’t like. The guys were making fun of him saying he didn’t know his girlfriend’s tastes as she didn’t like exotic food at all. The thing was for Koreans Italian food is exotic. It’s like only white people (and really Western Europeans and their descendants) get to define what is exotic.

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  587. Oh ya and just so everyone arguing here is clear. Yes there is a vast white conspiracy to hold all the other races down. Dam u guys caught us. Yup me and all my white brothers dven though we argue and hate each other and have totakly differsnt points of view we all secretly are racist and are scheming for white supremacy. All us whites have secret handshakes and phrases we use in public to keep this vast conspiracy hidden. We only helped vote in the first black president ( who is half white *wink wink) to make all the other races think that were all not racist. Matter of fact that was part of the conspiracy all the white ppl in america got together in secret before the election and decided who was gonna vote for him.

    Also all the white kids who idolize black rappers and sports stars thats all just a front to help hide the conspiracy.

    I say all this at my own peril for now I have snitched out my white brothers to bring u all the truth and in doing so im now a wanted man i must exile myself. I can never be spotted by another white person again or I will be captured and brought to a secret white tribunal and be killed for revealing the conspiracy but it must be known the truth had to come out. I only hope that u all will use this info wisely to defeat this vast white conspiracy. Im sorry i could not do more well goodbye to all i must go underground now

    Like


  588. Kiwi

    I have been to china and there black ppl are considered exotic and they call them exotic. Is it racist when chinese ppl say it. I have no problem being called exotic. I am sure there are places in the world where white ppl are very rare like tribal regions or places in asia and im sure they would cull me exotic or a word in thier language that means the same thing.

    ex·ot·ic
    iɡˈzädik/
    adjective
    1.
    originating in or characteristic of a distant foreign country.

    Like


  589. @ Gator

    Interesting… Black people in China are called “exotic” but white people there are not?

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  590. Erm, the issue is calling a person exotic, not calling an object exotic.

    This seems to have gone over people’s heads.

    I have been to china

    “Take China for Instance” is a corollary of the broken record argument “Take Japan, for instance”.

    After many decades of being addressed by white people as “exotic”, I can tell you it is NOT appreciated. It implies that you are not part of the local environment, or that you are somehow not “normal” in the local environment. Well, I suppose black people would be exotic in Vermont and Wyoming, even if they were born and raised there.

    But no, I was referred to as “exotic” in New York City of all places. But not so much in Hawaii and parts of the Philippines.

    And why do people use examples of racism in China to justify the reasonableness of white racism in the USA? What one witnessed a couple times in China lends no moral authority to what white people do in America.

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  591. Gator’s probably just another white guy who dates Asian women and thinks of them as exotic. If only I had a penny for each of them…

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  592. @gator:

    Your attempt at levity is sorely lacking.

    @jefe:

    The real concern is not exoticism, but eroticism. If they consider you erotic, your chances of getting a leg-over is that much greater.

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  593. How about if white people think first and not say stuff that will provoke a reaction?

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  594. I thought the term “exotic” became unusable since strippers began to call themselves “exotic dancers?”

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  595. Hey Gator,

    In regard to your lack of belief in race based full of conspiracy WHITE people, what do you think about the white folks on this particular thread on another site about prepping for … whatever?

    http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/new-machine-gun-armed-nypd-unit-lumps-protesters-in-with-terrorists-civil-disobedience-an-attack-on-nyc-itself_02032015#comment-3325324

    I don’t expect an answer or any intelligent dialog from you, anymore than I would expect it from the above geniuses… so a response from you is neither desired or expected..

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  596. I the controversy made by the foodie couple Michelle Davis and her partner Matt Holloway was kind of interesting. I kind of feel they were being short sighted and kind of stupid with their “Thug Culture cookbook and Youtube videos. Great recipes but they got the bright idea that if they used street slang taken from rap songs and black standup comedians that this would be a hit. This is a perfect example of being blind by white privilege and not thinking how this would be perceived as kind of racist. Using vulgar street slang with beautiful food. Well just like Paula Deen they had to cease and desist with their foolishness after they were called out on it.

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  597. Just like Paula Deen, Michelle Davis and Matt Holloway are vegan foodies who had a controversial cookbook and Youtube channel “Thug Cookbook” they thought by using vulgar street slang from rap songs and black stand up comedians that this would be fun and entertaining. This to me is an example of being blinded by whiteness and white privilege. Vulgar language and beautiful food. Swearing is not exclusive to black people so yes this is very offensive. And i am glad they were called out on their foolishness to cease and desist.

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  598. @Abagond: Please delete my first post because of the typos.

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  599. “Mary, Like Omnipresent said Cumberbatch was trying to speak on the lack of diversity in for black actors and this overshadowed that and it just took a life of it’s own after that. I think the media deliberately started this race baiting.”

    Linda says,

    My understanding is that black twitter started the backlash– they got upset and it took off from there.

    Speaking as an immigrant, I can honestly say, I doubt Cumberbatch knew the significance that the word “coloured” has to black Americans

    I know I did Not, even after living in the US for several years. (How would I –This word carries no negative connotations in the Caribbean– it’s old but not negative)

    I only learned that it was considered bad from watching TV shows like Good Times, where everyone got visibly upset when a white person said the word “coloured”

    It takes actually living in the US and interacting /learning black American history ie (having someone tell you) for an outsider/immigrant to actually know that this word is insulting to black Americans

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  600. The white man has Invented most if not all of the things that has made America a once great nation. So white people earned that right to say what ever they want. If non-whites can talk without any restrictions then white people more then earned this right.

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  601. If non-whites can talk without any restrictions the