The Anything But Racism argument, common among White Americans, says that racism is so dead that it is the least likely cause of the races being unequal, like in housing, education, unemployment, police protection, banking, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc. There must be some Perfectly Logical Reason that has nothing to do with racism.
For example, in 2009 the New York Times reported that blacks in New York were four times more likely to be out of work than whites, much higher than a year before. The Times’s (white) reporters examined several possible causes – but racism was not one of them!
The logical reasoning goes like this:
- Racism is pretty much dead. Only the Klan, skinheads and people who use the n-word are still racist.
- Therefore a case of racial inequality must have some other cause. Sure, there is still some racism, but it is so rare that it must be proved beyond the shadow of a doubt. Like murder or an appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary (pictured).
- Since it is not white people who are screwed up, it must be blacks.
But the emotional reasoning goes like this:
- Holy crap!
- White people are not racist! They are good people! No one I know is racist – well, except maybe my grandmother. This cannot be right. There must be some mistake.
- There must be some Perfectly Logical Reason that has Absolutely Nothing To Do With Racism. What is it? Think, think, think.
- I know, I can buy time by making them “prove” it was racism. Demand peer-reviewed articles, statistics, all of it. Buy more time by finding holes in those.
- If all else fails, derail: “Blacks are the racist ones,”, etc.
This is not to say that the “It Must Be Racism” argument is any better. It is just as extreme.
But, given:
- that America has a violently racist past;
- that at least 80% of whites are still racist – not in a Klan way, but in what they assume about people;
- that whites still pretty much control stuff like the courts, police, press, schools, banks, labour market, housing market, etc,
The “It Could Be Racism” argument needs to be seriously and honestly considered. To dismiss it out of hand or not even consider it, like many whites do, is not level-headed.
The trouble is that a huge part of white people’s self-image is based on being white. But to maintain that image as something good requires heavy layers of duct tape called moral blindness. This argument is a piece of that duct tape.
The irony, of course, is that Anything But Racism is itself racist. Notice where the Presumption of Pathology lies: it is never white people who are screwed up but always black people, Latinos or whoever. Not that black people, say, are perfect, that they do not have issues of their own that have nothing to do with racism. They do. But white people are screwed up too – but they have the cultural power to make their pathologies seem “normal”.
– Abagond, 2013.
See also:
Another awesome post Abagond! It’s amazing how often this plays into many facets of life. I don’t believe in playing oppression olympics, but I really do think that White Supremacy is the most prevalent of all the ‘isms’ due to the fact that people are willing to spot the sexism, homophobia and what have you in a situation and speak on it, but almost never get around to seeing the racism that affects almost everything. That’s how you can see its power, by the fact that people will do all kinds of mental and linguistic gymnastics rather than see it. If they have to see it, then they’ll have to look at their part and actions within the system and their little cognitive dissonance jumper starts to unravel. I’m living the life of a near hermit because I cannot deal with all the people in my life and the veil they waft around in. I cannot watch and enjoy movies and most popular media anymore as I do not see myself represented or stereotypically misrepresented. It’s so boring and upsetting to me. I can no longer zip my lip on things and have really been testing all my relationships with those I love, to see who gets it and who is willing to learn. This world is sick and I need to be well. It feels good to be freeing myself of the bullshit. Cussing [people out is really cathartic. I just have no more space for it in my life or headspace. I absolutely love the stuff you’ve been posting this year, I’ve bben stalking for around 4 years and I’ve seen the shifts and clarity that has come through your writing after various dramas and trolls. It’s inspiring honey! ❤
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[…] The Anything But Racism argument. […]
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Another close cousin of this argument is the “only a small minority of White extremists are racists” argument.
The idea that racism exists but that it’s always the same group of very busy extremists who are exhibiting the more blatant evidences of it. Case in point is the recent racist brouhaha about the Cheerios mixed-race couple commercial.
Here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500395_162-57587233/cheerios-commerical-with-mixed-race-couple-draws-attention/
And here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/cheerios-commercial-racist-backlash_n_3363507.html
Now, most people have heard about the Ad and the racist reaction to it. But most White people who I’ve seen or read in the media seem to be chalking this up to:
1) Some misguided racist trolls
2) Kids trying to get attention by saying something outrageous
3) A targeted campaign by the Stormfront crowd (or similar)
4) Unsophisticated people from the Bible Belt
On the street I hear White people saying things like:
– This is the media’s fault for giving the racists the attention they wanted they should not have even covered this non-story
– Do you really believe this? Nobody that I know has ANY problem with Black people or interracial couples.
– We have to stop reacting to these extremists and they’ll just go away.
But almost nowhere do I hear White people saying, “Wow, maybe there is a lot more racism happening under the surface than we realize. It’s troubling how different racist attitudes can be when people feel that their comments are completely anonymous.”
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Racism is for sure still all too common. In fact, I just saw this video this morning that provides an all-too-scary example: http://www.upworthy.com/know-anyone-that-thinks-racial-profiling-is-exaggerated-watch-this-and-tell-me-when-your-jaw-drops-2
While those racialized as “white” are for sure far-and-away the primary perpetuators of racism directed toward other racialized groups, it is also important for us to recognize and do so specifically the ways in which “white” people are racialized. I know this is touched on in “White Default” and “Whiteness” blog postings here. But moreover we need to try (and it’s as hard as recognizing racism for some) and truly recognize the ways in which this same racism hurts, affects, and changes “white people.” It’s not just a problem of overtly racist “whites” and unconsciously racist “whites.” It’s much deeper and older, yet still a social construction. We have to work on all being aware of it and making others aware of it, and as possible, we have to work on changing core social and political beliefs and institutions. Far too many individuals racialized as “white” simply really can’t see the problem because of how the elite racialize them and others.
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[…] The Anything But Racism argument, common among White Americans, says that racism is so dead that it is the least likely cause of the races being unequal, like in housing, education, unemployment, p… […]
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I would say there is at least one reason more reason why people down play the racism angle.
In a lot of people’s minds the US is the “land of opportunity” where you can make something of yourself if you try hard enough and work hard enough.
In their minds if you can’t make it; its not because you lack the chance or opportunity its because you didn’t try or lacked the will to keep going, weren’t willing to do the work for an education etc……
That and there are the conservative types who believe in as little government as possible but if they admit to racism still being that prevalent, they would have to admit that some amount of big government is needed.
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now that video is pretty convincing
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“it really is ironic that they would be telling US to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps when they basically built their entire existence OFF OF OUR BOOTSTRAPS and our backs”
BRAVO. ENCOre.
It is funny how things that are ok for them are a no no for us or it will be legal until others start doing it.
They try to explain everything away like affirmative action, shootings, racism, and hate crimes. Apparently there is a logical explanation for everything.
Problem: white person shoots up school. Explanation: mental illness
Problem: hate crime Explanation: the victim had a record and probably initiated the confrontation
Problem: unemployment Explanation: they are not working hard enough
Problem: black kids don’t get same coverage when missing
Explanation: The news doesn’t really cover when white boys go missing either only girls
Problem: slavery Explanation: it was a few rich whites and I think we should stop talking about it.
Problem: segregated proms Explanation: oh it is a tradition and what’s the difference I see them everyday so what if we are separated for just one night.
Problem: blacks caught with drugs more than whites even though whites use more
Explanation: Oh whites are just better at not getting caught.
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Most white people will admit racism exists. They will even admit to institutional racism, but point out any specific instance of inequality and they’ll deny racism has anything to do with it.
Abagond,
Definitely. I meant to mention that during my “discussion” with Randy on the paternalism post( I think). Don’t know if I actually did.
Another thing they do is try make it about poor people, which since a disproportionate amount of the poor are black it pretty much equates to the same thing, since most are willing to throw poor white people under the bus as long as they can target black people.
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“But white people are screwed up too – but they have the cultural power to make their pathologies seem “normal”.”
For instance, during the white “drinking holidays” (St. Patrick’s Day, Cinco de Mayo) or any big sports event, they get drunk in droves, but are there mass arrests?
Nope.
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Very true. Barack Obama gave the commencement speech at Morehouse recently where he basically reiterated this.
I wonder if when his term is over and we lament how little he accomplished if he will blame republican obstructionism.
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Yeah; St. Patrick’s day is kind of a weird one, all the irish people get together to show Irish Pride by behaving in all the worst stereotypes about irish people?
Then the fact; that celebrating St. Patricks’ day comes close to celebrating the english colonization of ireland as well and its all kinds of interesting.
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I’ve seen that even with overt racism such as hate groups or racial epithets, there are people – even those who go engage in those acts – will object to it being racist. It’s like saying that whites can not be racist ever even when it is more than obvious that they are.
We live in a society where racism is coddled and supported, and anyone who is the victim is punished for simply not being white.
If white people are called out on their racism, all they will get is a slap on the wrist. There is no laws that would punish that unless it is extreme like a hate crime like murder or assault.
However, POC are constantly punished in some way or another for being POC. This may sound extreme to some but here, being nonwhite in the West is basically an aberration, a crime or a sin in white society.
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Yup, many White AmeriKKKlans use this argument to tell us, ”Get over it” and that racism is dead. It is easy for them to say because they have never been in our shoes, being disenfranchised, oppressed and looked down on. And I also hate the Whitewashed minorities who side with these Whites because they are just as bad as them too.
And worst of all, many of these Whites come our blogs and websites putting us down and commenting for no other reason other than the fact that they are jealous of us but at the same time hate us.
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Abagond:
When someone suggests that racism may not be the cause of a particular observed phenomenon, how do you know that they’re making an “Anything but racism” argument and not a “It could be racism, but I don’t believe the evidence supports it” argument?
Automatically assuming the former is equivalent to invoking a straw man. I think the key is whether or not both parties are having a logical and rational discussion.
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Great post. It reminds me of whites on the blogs commenting that blacks are always complaining. Or they always use the blacks are just as racist. All the derailments that white commenters use when discussing these types of discussions.
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This post just reminds me of a certain segment of white population just plain being in denial and the topic of race is just uncomfortable for some of them.
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@ Randy
That’s actually the potential beginning of the “Deny Everything Ironman” tactic. Where when presented with the evidence, no matter how cut and dry, the white “still believes that the evidence doesn’t support it”. Where they attempt to get into a “Last Man Standing” contest, by trying to test the fortitude of the person they’re up against. Muddying the Waters through obfuscations, a litany of hypotheticals, an endless sea of Red Herrings/Strawmen, and many other tactics that attempt to test the resolve of the person they are conversing with. To frustrate them and end the conversation. “Winning” by default, because there is no acknowledgement of racism on the white’s part. Which was THE goal of the person they were conversing with.
At this point, they’ve officially evolved the “Anything But Racism” argument into something far more common.
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I don’t get how the picture relates to the topic.
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Franklin:
Agreed.
It’s also the potential beginning of a rational, unbiased discussion. Sorting the wheat from the chaff, as it were, is difficult.
Proving the cause(s) of complex phenomena is extremely challenging, even when the topic under scrutiny is purely scientific and with no potential social biases. Those who make claims and provide evidence usually expect and receive vigorous rebuttal. It can be quite brutal. Ultimately, the process of peer review is how knowledge grows.
More to the point, if you hold a belief which is grounded on evidence, why wouldn’t you want it challenged with the best arguments that those who disagree (or at least are not yet convinced) can muster?
Maybe it’s just me, but I’d rather have a cherished belief skewered by another’s facts and reasoning than to remain blissfully ignorant and incorrect.
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@ Randy
For a while this is what myself and more than a few other commentators here have become convinced of…That you would rather remain blissfully ignorant and incorrect!
By far the biggest assumption I find in all your apparently “logical, rational and reasoned” arguments is that YOU, and only you, understand what racism is. Clearly you don’t!
Or… you obviously don’t agree with the general one over represented on this blog. Which is Racism=White Supremacy. This is coming from Black people’s experience. Which should at least be given some validity.
Without this acknowledgement or acceptance all your seemingly “logical, rational and reasoned” arguments will continue to fall on “deaf ears”. And your state of blissful ignorance will no doubt continue…
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Kwamla:
I don’t agree with your statement because it’s an overly-specific embodiment of the generally accepted dictionary definition of the term.
Accordingly, it fails to account for local and global examples of “racism” which may not involve any white people at all.
Local: race-driven job discrimination and acts of violence between non-white people.
Global: Racial and ethnic conflicts such as the Japanese vs. Chinese / Southeast Asia peoples in WW2, Central African groups vs. the Pygmy people in contemporary times.
Given the opportunity, plenty of groups subjugate, dehumanize, and commit atrocities against other peoples. From that perspective, your definition of the term “racism” seems quite limited and parochial.
See here:
These examples fit my overarching theory that:
1. Racism is basically “groupism” at a particular level of “zoom”.
2. People around the world share a similar proclivity for groupism, be it at the clan, tribe, ethnicity, or racial level.
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@ Randy
I agree with Franklin. You can generally tell when someone has honest, serious doubts about what you are saying. People like that do not pull every trick in the book to avoid agreeing with you. Those who use the Anything But Racism argument, though, will bend over backwards to avoid agreeing with you. I gave examples of such tactics in the post, Franklin gave more.
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@ Randy
White Americans can only be so stupid. I know they do not directly experience racism, I get that, but they know the country’s history, they know how unequal the races still are, they know they directly benefit from the current racist set-up. I know they know. That is apparent from their moral blindness. That is apparent from how they oppose policies to lessen racial inequality, like affirmative action, and support those that increase it, like racial profiling. I am not that stupid and they are not that stupid.
But YOU come here acting as if you are THAT stupid. What you call “rational, unbiased discussion” is more like Jellybean’s “mental and linguistic gymnastics”.
If you were truly “unbiased” you would not always come down on the side of the white racist status quo.
If you were truly “unbiased” you would not be here taking an adversarial role against blacks in defence of whites.
If you were truly “unbiased” you would not take what white people say at face value, as if you were an eight-year-old with little experience of the world, while constantly doubting what black people say, as if they were four-year-olds talking about how a giraffe ate their lunch.
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abagond,
This is also the central theme to so-called race realists arguments that race is biological. To them whatever happened to black people was their own fault because they are biologically different from regular i.e. white humans.
As far as Randy goes, I’ve noticed that his arguments always sided with that of the white racial mindset. Even though he claims that it is unbiased, it is anything but. Randy’s responses show signs that what we see as typical white proverbs to us are used as unbiased statements to them. It is linked with the notion that whiteness is not only the default, but is seen as objective facts.
So, what Randy and anyone else with the same mindset believes even though it favors whiteness is seen as ‘right’ without question. And I don’t think white people, many of them, are that clueless not to see that. There are those who are until it is revealed. But when it does, they will defend it outright.
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Abagond:
You might be surprised. Most white folks I’ve spoken believe (rightly or not) that if you follow a basic formula, you’ll succeed (focus on education, try to provide a stable home environment). Even in majority white areas, most have seen African-Americans, African immigrants, Indian and Asian immigrants and other groups do just that. They then conclude (rightly or not) that these opportunities are available to everyone.
Sure, the execution takes enormous commitment and sacrifice, but the formula is as simple as 1-2-3.
Abagond:
I’m a skeptic. I don’t debate gently with friends, relatives, or unrelated “whites” either. I feel that this process produces better truths.
In regards to topics discussed here, the ultimate desired outcome is policy change, such as Affirmative Action.
Affirmative Action is really an investment. It’s a social and economic investment meant to produce greater social and economic benefits. The price of this is to create small, temporary inequalities in order to produce greater equalities.
How do organizations analyze investments? You’re in the business world. I’m sure you’ve observed this type of process. It roughly goes like this:
1. Quantify the problem.
2. Propose a solution to produce a benefit by addressing the problem. Balance the level of investment with the level of benefit.
3. Measure progress.
I’ve rarely seen this done for Affirmative Action or many other “social justice” type programs. And yet its proponents appear to want continuing investment with little proof that the ultimate “problem” is solvable with it or that the current regime is working. Just keep investing indefinitely, we’re told. If it’s not working, you’re not investing enough.
That kind of attitude is poor business and poor policy. Maybe Affirmative Action does work. Maybe it does correct effectively historical injustice. But maybe it doesn’t, like how in Malaysia it appears to be creating corruption and unproductive entitlement.
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21576654-elections-may-could-mark-turning-point-never-ending-policy
People who support programs like Affirmative Action should be just as skeptical and demanding of proof as people who don’t. It’s those whose communities are most affected by perceived inequality who naturally have the greatest interest that these programs succeed.
The more someone cares, the more they should demand proof.
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I’m a skeptic. I don’t debate gently with friends, relatives, or unrelated “whites” either. I feel that this process produces better truths.
Bullcrap! You are just ornery. You argue for the fun of it. Everyone has a hobby and ‘debating’ circuitously and spewing a bunch of fecal matter in the process of such, is your hobby. In fact I find you to be comical! Carry on! Folks, what is the definition of insanity? Well in this case it is ‘debating’ with Randy over and over again and getting the same results, nothing! Carry on Randy!
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Randy,
You might be surprised. Most white folks I’ve spoken believe (rightly or not) that if you follow a basic formula, you’ll succeed (focus on education, try to provide a stable home environment). Even in majority white areas, most have seen African-Americans, African immigrants, Indian and Asian immigrants and other groups do just that. They then conclude (rightly or not) that these opportunities are available to everyone.
Sure, the execution takes enormous commitment and sacrifice, but the formula is as simple as 1-2-3.
It is not that simple, Randy, and it is not the case all around the board.
How can you focus on education when the system is failing its children, especially black and brown children who deserve it? How can you tell kids to stay in school when their schools are closing down while at the same time a prison is given the OK which costs millions of dollars to build?
How can you tell people to provide a stable environment when the environment around them is falling apart due to economic faltering from avarice elitism who’s greed is constantly feed unchecked?
Sure, these people you spoke with may have those ideals, but in the real world, it is not as easy as 1-2-3 when one, two or all three numbers are not available to everyone.
I’m a skeptic. I don’t debate gently with friends, relatives, or unrelated “whites” either. I feel that this process produces better truths.
What is there to debate about when it’s obvious? That makes arguing pointless and makes you appear like a troll.
You still claim that you are unbiased, but everything you’ve mentioned is similar to what most racist trolls who came and went here have said. This is not saying that you are racist, but to argue what is true coming from whoever makes you seem insane and in extreme denial.
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Randy,
One last thing. What makes you think that this is a subject that calls for a debate? Some subjects are for discussion, not to argue against. The denial of racism is an American pathology. That is a fact, not an opinion.
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The “anything but racism ” argument is one all people of color know quite well. I know growing up in the USA, one has to use this tactic like a chess move. If you have any kind of grievance you better think of all possible reasons why XYZ occurred and never state the obvious if the offending party is all white. *rolling my eye, snapping my neck*
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@Randy
I was going to comment that you would do well to take a few minutes to watch the video link Peanut supplied in one of her previous comments. But then I recall this same Jane Elliot exercise has already been debated with you in one of Abagond’s previous posts before:
It should be no surprise, to anyone here, that you are still (even today) rehashing the same tired old: in-groupings and out-groupings argument to account for the natural propensity of what you call “human racism”.
Again, as I have already stated, this is clear evidence that you don’t, and don’t want to, understand the insidious, pernicious and ONLY specific form of racism there is – which is Global White Supremacy! A bit like the white woman in that Jane Elliot video….!
Racism is about Inequality and no amount of diverted attention to discussions about Affirmative Action can resolve this permanently. (Unless of course you seek to hold onto at least some of those unearned privileges)
Inequality produces White Privilege which as a white person you can either accept or reject on the grounds that you believe Equality should be a natural state for ALL human beings to experience.
On this basis….Randy
I don’t expect you will be returning your “white privilege card” anytime soon….
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@Abagond
I have to commend what you’ve written here Abagond because it accurately describes Randy to a tee!
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Brothawolf:
1. Because education works. Even in poor schools, some kids succeed. Why? Who are these kids and what do they have in common? Ask a teacher in private and they’ll probably tell you that they can predict a student’s success by meeting individual parents and/or the parents of a community in aggregate.
2. You’re not addressing how the system is failing children. There are plenty of poor places in the world where willing students get a decent education even though the budgets are a fraction of those found in the US.
The key there is willing students. My wife grew up in exactly that type of situation, and education enabled her to escape poverty. In these cases there are no cops in schools, no metal detectors, and kids don’t get beaten up for being studious, rather they’re more likely to get a wallop at home for not studying enough.
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/99425225@N00/6753375289/
http://badstudentsnotbadschools.com/
3. Your question is analogous to “Why should people pedal their bikes if they find themselves going uphill?”. That’s precisely when pedaling is most important.
4. The formula of “inadequate parenting = weak students = bad schools” is not limited to poor and minority areas. You’ll find the same effect even in affluent places, and similarly, you’ll find school systems far too cowardly to tell parents that much of the problem for Junior’s failings comes from the home environment.
Even though I live in a middle class area with “decent” school options, I’m terrified of the rampant attitude of mediocrity among fellow parents. If you have kids, you should be too.
Look at what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that racism doesn’t exist. I am saying, with some evidence, that it’s not the greatest factor impacting a kid’s chances. Look at who succeeds in such environments and what they have in common. Look at the home life. You’ll see a pattern.
This is why I emphasize quantifying the problem. What racism exists, how much of it is there, and what fraction of the problem is caused by it? I don’t see how anyone can solve a problem without a granular understanding of its causes.
Brothawolf:
Because that’s what works. Why do immigrant kids (regardless of race) tend to thrive even in poor areas with poor schools? Again, look for the pattern. What are they doing differently?
Brothawolf:
Racist commenters tend to say that black folks are genetically inadequate. The consensus of many black commenters here is that white people are particularly evil. I say that people and peoples are ultimately similar at the core.
Perhaps that actually makes me the least racist.
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Randy,
“Look at what I’m not saying. I’m not saying that racism doesn’t exist. I am saying, with some evidence, that it’s not the greatest factor impacting a kid’s chances. Look at who succeeds in such environments and what they have in common. Look at the home life. You’ll see a pattern.”
What are some examples of racism? Where does it exist? Do you think there are institutions that are impervious to racism?
What is the greatest factor? How do you get this factor? Is racism not an impediment to this factor? If it isn’t, how does this factor avoid racism? What is the pattern? How do you create this pattern? Is racism not an obstacle to creating this pattern?
Why are white people so much more successful at creating these factors and patterns than black people?
Are there any factors that black people have to deal with that white people don’t?
Are there factors white people deal with that black people don’t?
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@ Solesearch
Excellent questions!
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Solesearch:
I agree with Abagond here. Great questions.
In answering your question about the “greatest factor”, I’d say that parents who emphasize and prioritize education produce better students. Further, I’d suggest that the same principle describes differences in white – asian performance, and differences between immigrant / native born performance.
Solesearch:
This appears to be a question about familial and community “culture”, how it arises and to what degree current or historical racism plays a role.
If one claims this as the ultimate factor in the performance differential between black and white students, then you’ve absolved the schools of the lions share of responsibility for the difference, and have embraced the idea of the problem originating with parents and the community.
Brothawolf and others who tend to blame the schools themselves would then need to look elsewhere for the fix. Also, you then bring hope to those who otherwise might think that they’re doomed by their zip code.
Is this your belief?
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Randy, I asked you those questions because I’d like to know your answers to them, not brothawolf’s.
You kind of answered the greatest factor question:
Parents who emphasize and prioritize education.
You say this is the difference between white/black performance and Asian/white performance.
I’m assuming you believe asians perform better than whites in school. So do white parents emphasize and prioritize education or do they not? It seems you’re saying they do, then saying they don’t.
Also, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the other questions?
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Thinking about the US profitting from slavery; most of that was focused in the South and even that aside, the civil war caused an intense loss of wealth.
Arguably; most of the profit from that era was lost in those four years and the South never truly recovered from it.
@Solsearch
If you go by success as a factor towards who emphasizes education the most, it would basically be african-americans/some asians, white people, people of indian descent, asians/jews, immigrant people of african descent.
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V-4,
“Thinking about the US profitting from slavery; most of that was focused in the South and even that aside, the civil war caused an intense loss of wealth.
Arguably; most of the profit from that era was lost in those four years and the South never truly recovered from it.”
What about this post has you thinking about this?
What are you basing your conclusions on and what do they mean in the grand scheme of things?
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From dealing with the American black race I find most of them are ashame of being black. They feel they must talk extremely loud for some reason. Most of our intercity problem are caused by you guessed it. course if you ask them they blame it on the whites. I don’t ever see any change, I have been around the world 3 times and the american black race still bears the blunt of being disliked, I have been all over Africa and the blacks there are extremely intelligent and well mannered, Hope for the best and expect the worst. May God Bless
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This appears to be a question about familial and community “culture”, how it arises and to what degree current or historical racism plays a role.
If one claims this as the ultimate factor in the performance differential between black and white students, then you’ve absolved the schools of the lions share of responsibility for the difference, and have embraced the idea of the problem originating with parents and the community.
Forgive me if I am wrong but, in a roundabout way, isnt this putting the effects of ‘racism’ back with the victims and not with the perpertrators? Isnt this in effect saying that instead of the institutions such as school in this instance or eventually, employers, are not responsible for the racist acts that prevent individuals progressing at the rate/level of their white peers – isnt this what this is saying?
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Solesearch:
I’m talking about averages which lie along a continuum and am suggesting that school performance is proportional to parental and community emphasis on education. “Community” is important because the aggregate behavior of a population of students creates and environment which may be more or less conducive to learning.
Solesearch:
I believe that two important realizations are: 1. people can and do change their attitudes to create a better outcome for their families, and 2. by and large nobody else can or will do this for them.
In other words, not only can many people pull themselves up by their bootstraps (at least further than where they were), but that they’re the only ones who can.
Oddly, this concept is uncontroversial in areas such as athletic performance (“Believe in yourself!”, “Attitude is everything!”) but faces push-back when applied to academic and economic performance.
As for your query about how this “success factor” arises, if I had to distill down an extremely complex set of questions to a simple answer (an obviously difficult and error-prone task), I’d say that there is a success factor behind this “success factor”, and that is the belief in one’s own agency.
Those who think that they can succeed will have an advantage over those who believe that they are powerless, regardless of the actual headwinds or tailwinds facing them.
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Randy,
Is the school not part of the community? Is racism not part of the environment? Black people don’t exist in a vacuum. Is it the behavior of the students, the children that matters the most? Does the aggregate behavior of the teachers and administrators matter less than that of the children? What is the community? What is the environment?
How do white parents emphasize education compared to black parents? Do you think the community emphasizes the education of white children and that of black children equally?
What attitudes do black have that need to change? Do white people not have these attitudes? If not, why? What are the attitudes to have? Do black people not have these attitudes? If not, why? Do white people have these attitudes? If so, why? Why do blacks and whites have different attitudes?
Are there any impediments that white people face to pulling themselves up by their bootstraps that black people do not face? Are there impediments that black people face that white people do not?
What does this mean?
Do black people not think they can succeed? Or do they believe that is just harder for them to succeed than it is for white people? Do white people have an easier time succeeding because they have fewer or less severe headwinds or tailwinds? Is it lacking agency, if black people try to remove the headwinds or tailwinds facing them?
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Excellent response solesearch. I was trying to explain this to Randy.
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Wayne,
From dealing with the American black race I find most of them are ashame of being black. They feel they must talk extremely loud for some reason. Most of our intercity problem are caused by you guessed it. course if you ask them they blame it on the whites. I don’t ever see any change, I have been around the world 3 times and the american black race still bears the blunt of being disliked, I have been all over Africa and the blacks there are extremely intelligent and well mannered, Hope for the best and expect the worst. May God Bless
If the first sentence is true, why do you think that is?
Oh yeah, the inner city problems were brought in by black people and did not exist prior to their arrival. SMH.
And the reason we are disliked is our own fault, the victims of a racist society.
Look, don’t tell us ‘May God Bless’ when you sound a lot like the devil.
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solesearch,
24 questions? Give some to get some.
I understand the concept of raising questions as a way to illustrate an idea, however it’s a thin porridge given that this rhetorical device lacks the opportunity to state an opinion as to how much these items may apply to the topic of discussion.
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@ Randy
Is there ANY racism in American society that has a marked effect on blacks or is racism no longer a big deal? What are some examples where racism is still a big deal if it does still exist?
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@ V-4
My understanding is that most of the money made off of slavery was made by the middle-men. That is how colonialism works: colonies are for the benefit of the mother country. So most of the money made off of Haitian slavery was made in France. Most of the money made off of Jamaica was made in Britain and went into those big country estates and so on, as Jane Austen points out. In the case of the American South the middle-men were mainly in Britain and the American North, particularly New England. New England was NOT an economic colony of Britain. Instead it was a rival, a new England.
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Randy, you’ve written some pretty long comments on here, I didn’t think it would be a problem.
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This is to everyone on here, ”Why do Americans(White and Black) try to avoid talking about racism when it is one of the biggest issues this country still faces fifty years after the Civil Rights’ Movement?
Avoiding racism and downplaying it is not going to make racism go away. we, as Americans, need to do something about it.
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Adeen,
I think it’s because racism opens up a lot of wounds and a can of worms no one wants to touch. Racism is usually associated with evilness, and the last thing a white person wants to be seen is a racist. Yet, many whites don’t have a problem being racist, but if you call them ‘racist’, their comfort zone is disturbed. You’ve acknowledged their sins and with their superiority complex, they can not handle hearing it.
I think the main reason is that racism is a benefactor to whites and POC who associate with them. This is a society that benefits from white supremacy. White skin is your card to normalcy or supremacy. So many of them are drunk with privileges that they really don’t want to have it any other way.
As for POC, especially blacks, it’s much harder, as they are not identified as white. However, it still comes down to skin color. The lighter your skin, the more likely you will receive some privileges. Yet, you would still be seen as “the other”.
And if you’re darker-skinned and you associate yourself with whiteness, it is tragic. That is like sleeping with the enemy, in some cases figuratively. If you side with whiteness, that includes siding with racism. Some POC do that for personal gain, and when you say so, they will implode mentally.
It all boils down to fear I believe.
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I’d agree Brothawolf…it does boil down to fear.!…
Essentially:… Racism is a FEAR based construct and regardless of WHO YOU ARE if you are willing to acknowledge and confront your own fears (- or guilt another fear based construct! -) you will ultimately be able to see through and challenge the artificially constructed belief system racism is.
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Abagond:
I’m sure there is plenty of racism of all types in contemporary American society, and it likely presents in the myriad of ways that people can be ignorant and lousy towards one another.
Additionally, I’d suggest that the belief in racism (whether corresponding to reality or not) also exerts an effect.
As far as where racism may have a “marked effect” or is a “big deal”, I suspect that varies according to individual circumstances. For example, I would expect that the experiences of a working class black person in the rural south would likely be different from those of a middle-class black person somewhere like Austin or the SF Bay area.
I’ve actually had people from the latter group tell me how being black can be advantageous, given that many companies in those areas explicitly pursue policies of so-called “progressive values” and “diversity”.
Those stories, and others, suggest that race-related issues aren’t uniformly experienced.
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Randy:
I’ve actually had people from the latter group tell me how being black can be advantageous, given that many companies in those areas explicitly pursue policies of so-called “progressive values” and “diversity”.
Those stories, and others, suggest that race-related issues aren’t uniformly experienced.
I think it states the opposite of what you say here, particularly in the last part of your comment. The sense I get just from this statement alone makes it seem that ‘race matters’ and on that basis, there will always be experiences that are ‘race related’ whether these are obvious or not. They may not necessarily end up bad for the individual but will they be good in promoting positive discrimination overall.
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Why not compare something you might have more direct experience of such as the racism experienced by a working class and middle class white person?
This would then lend your argument some credibility.
Or would it be trivial and meaningless to make such a comparison amongst different classes of white people?.
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@ Randy
So of the racism I talk about, how much of it is real and how much of it is in my imagination? Is it 20% / 80% or what?
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Thanks, Brothawolf.
I’m really trying to understand his viewpoint, but he doesn’t want to answer the questions because he’s afraid that if he really thinks about it, he’ll be wrong.
I’m open to being wrong. He could have novel insights that might break this whole inequality thing wide open.
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Randy, could you answer these questions?
Is the school not part of the community?
Is racism not part of the environment?
Does the aggregate behavior of the teachers and administrators(the adults) matter less than that of the children?
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Omnipresent:
The main questions I deal with are to what degree these issues present, and their impact on people’s opportunities for success, not whether or not they ever exist.
Kwamla:
That’s an interesting topic, but not the one which Abagond asked about.
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Abagond:
It might all be real.
If memory serves, your posts about racism tend to be like taxonomic descriptions. Where my opinions disagree with the mainstream is usually regarding measures of scale, frequency, impact, etc.
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Randy:
The main questions I deal with are to what degree these issues present, and their impact on people’s opportunities for success, not whether or not they ever exist.
Ok, so do you agree that to a significant degree, race does matter whether bad or good, in the case of your friend who was recruited as part of positive discrimination?
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solesearch:
Schools are certainly part of a community, and racism of some form and strength is probably part of most communities. Is what you’re really asking how impactful it may be to the educational opportunities for kids?
solesearch:
Certainly both are important. Ultimately, preparing a child to attend school is a parent’s job. Ensuring that your child is sufficiently disciplined to not be disruptive is a parent’s job.
Being involved in the child’s education and following their academic progress is a parent’s responsibility, as is teaching children to value learning.
These concepts are universal and independent of race.
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Omnipresent:
Race certainly played a role in his life, though I’m not sure it necessarily had to do so as much as it did. He’s a very smart and competent guy, and quite rationally sought out opportunities where he could use it to get ahead.
When we’d go out to a bar he’d look for places where there’d be no other black guys so he could be only “cool black guy” option for white girls who had such a preference. It worked.
Ultimately, I think you’re asking about the degree of effect, which I think is an important part of the dialog. That a headwind or tailwind exists doesn’t necessarily imply that one’s progress is significantly impeded or aided. To begin to make such an assessment, the speed and direction are important to understand.
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Randy,
“Schools are certainly part of a community, and racism of some form and strength is probably part of most communities. Is what you’re really asking how impactful it may be to the educational opportunities for kids?”
“Ultimately, preparing a child to attend school is a parent’s job. Ensuring that your child is sufficiently disciplined to not be disruptive is a parent’s job.
Being involved in the child’s education and following their academic progress is a parent’s responsibility, as is teaching children to value learning.”
So we can agree that racism is part of the community? Racism is certainly not conducive to learning and is an impediment to a student having a proper learning environment, which you called the greatest factor along with parenting.
I’m asking if there is an impact and if so does it impact black students and white students equally. If it doesn’t, couldn’t it be the cause for the disparity?
“Certainly both are important. Ultimately, preparing a child to attend school is a parent’s job. Ensuring that your child is sufficiently disciplined to not be disruptive is a parent’s job.
Being involved in the child’s education and following their academic progress is a parent’s responsibility, as is teaching children to value learning.”
Would you say that if a school has racism, it is less prepared to teach black children than white children? Would you say the school is undisciplined and disruptive to the child’s learning?
If racism is part of the school environment, don’t black parent’s have to prepare their children for it? If so, how should a parent do this?
If a child has to deal with racism at school, wouldn’t it be harder for a parent to teach them to value learning or at least to value school? If that is true, can we truly say it is independent of race?
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@ Randy
Non-thanks for your non-answers. They seemed evasive and wriggly.
You are using half-truths to shore up your belief that American society is more ore less fair, that racism is no longer a big deal.
Half Truth #1:
Can people rise out of poverty? Of course. Some can and some will. Does everyone? No. Do parenting practices have something to do with it? Most likely. Does racism have something to do with? Most certainly.
In the eyes of white employers, being black and having an Ivy League degree is about the same as being white with a university degree from a state school. That is not based on studies with twistable numbers, that is what I have seen over and over again (in metropolitian New York). It is the old saying that you have to be twice as good before whites will see you as equal. Even Condoleezza Rice says that, and she is no slouch, no Whining Negro Asking For a Handout (the white paternalist stereotype). She is not even a brainwashed liberal.
So, right, blacks if they work hard enough, blah, blah, blah, can rise from poverty. I have seen it done. But that does not prove that racism is no big deal. It is. Many work harder than most white middle-class people can even imagine and still wind up where they started. After all, using my example, getting into an Ivy League university and graduating, even with the supposed blessings of affirmative action (which only gets your foot in the door – you still have to pass the tests like everyone else), is way harder than for a white person to get into a state school and graduate. Way. Are you getting this?
Half Truth #2:
Another one of your half-truths on which you hang your Anything But Racism thing is that belief in the fact of racism can be self-defeating. That is true, it can be. Belief in white racism can lead blacks to be overly suspicious of whites, to give up before they start. But do not quote me out of context here because that is only part of the picture. It hardly accounts for most blacks or most of what is going on. After all, there are probably just as many blacks who are whitewashed and think racism is over – tra-la-la-la-lah – only to become rudely apprised of the facts once they have to live in the real world on their own for a while, if not way before (usually by age 11). The blacks who are between these two extremes have it about right.
I do not think that is controversial but only makes sense: that out of 40 million lived experiences, the average would be pretty close to the truth. Just like when you take measurements in engineering or science, the average is pretty close to the truth, certainly way closer than the extremes.
It is certainly way closer in this case than depending on what white people say, people who have no direct experience of being at the receiving end of white racism. That would be like asking virgins about sex.
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@ peanut, ppl are showing their true colors nowadays, did u see that vid of that crazy woman going off at dunk n donuts and using racial slurs?
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Abagond:
I attempt to use accurate language. Regarding your posts on different types of racism, I expect that they may very well exist but I don’t know for sure and don’t claim otherwise. Where we tend to differ is in terms of when, where, and how these factors present, and their effects on people.
Let me suggest an example:
Just in this thread 3 commenters have implied that merely the existence of any kind of racism in communities and schools is sufficient to explain the gap in educational performance between white and black students.
That’s a “tick the box” type of association which doesn’t appear to require anyone to describe how much of it there is, where and when it shows up, and how its effects might affect others. Simply name-checking “racism” seems enough for a diagnosis. That’s just inadequate reasoning.
I suppose our soundbite culture tends to encourage this type of thinking. “Arsenic found in apple juice. Your kids may be at risk. News at 11.”
That’s sufficient to alarm some people who don’t care to think deeper. The pertinent question is not whether there’s arsenic in the apple juice, but how much, where found, and what types.
Abagond:
I’m getting it.
What you describe here are actual examples. That type of focused narrative seems far more conducive to exposing a problem than when a list of discrimination types is presented and then left open to broad speculation.
Personally though, I’m more interested in childhood education than the experiences of Ivy League grads, not that the latter can’t also serve to expose a serious problem.
The results of public education are often atrocious, regardless of race. Parental apathy explains much of this.
I often challenge the “racism” argument here because there is already a hypothesis which appears to effectively explain student achievement or the lack thereof.
Also, most proponents of the racism argument as it relates to public education don’t attempt to describe the mechanism. We’re supposed to accept the premise that the mere existence of racism, of some nebulous type and quantity, is sufficient to explain an achievement deficit among non-white students. That this effect appears to exclude many African and Asian immigrants is also not explained.
Abagond:
I agree, though with caveats.
One: people tend to be poor judges of their situations, to wit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational
http://www.livescience.com/26914-why-we-are-all-above-average.html.
Two: how does one figure out “average opinion”. Should we go by those who comment on this blog, or perhaps that of someone with a different worldview, such as this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK64QXS9XR4
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What’s wrong with using a scientific poll? Why do you continue to act like there aren’t accepted scientific means of accessing social phenomena? Do you reject scientific polling and statistical analysis flat out or just when they refer to racial inequality?
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Randy:
Race certainly played a role in his life, though I’m not sure it necessarily had to do so as much as it did. He’s a very smart and competent guy, and quite rationally sought out opportunities where he could use it to get ahead.
When we’d go out to a bar he’d look for places where there’d be no other black guys so he could be only “cool black guy” option for white girls who had such a preference. It worked.
Both of these comments above demonstrate one thing for me. Even in the cases where the outcome is not taken as negative race does matter. Having seen an example like this play out in real life, I guess that whilst your friend has been able to take advantage of the opportunities that he wanted to pursue, there are generally expectations on people in this position too. The most common thing would be for him not to revert to type, for example, get mad, react to racism, not to ‘act black’ unless it was for comedic entertainment,or, to prove a stereotypical point. The cool black guy that he presented to secure these opportunities is often there for primarily for aesthetics and image!
This is not me saying that everyone is racist – it is an honest acknowledgement that many are not enlightened. The fact that your friend and maybe others like him, feel that they have to use their race to secure designated outcomes and, the fact that it ‘works’ shows that there is still miles to go.
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This is the kind of thing that gives me a headache and makes me say a little prayer and take some deep breathes. I just (silly me) checked out some news sites and slipped upon some Affirmative Action articles which left me with a head-ache. The notion that Affirmative Action is somehow “wrong” or that it’s passed it’s need does NOT fit with the reality of most black people at all! I understand class is important too and should be considered but given how society operates, our history ( and how it lingers with our present) and how everything shows the vast majority of this country still has an issue with blacks ( no matter how educated, lawful, etc we are ) it is still needed. Protections for groups that are always under attack and often excluded are still needed.
I can’t relate to those posters who post things on message boards angrily stating they are against the voting rights act and affirmative action, I just can’t relate and the only thing I can think is that they themselves are “angry” about any effort for blacks to be “protected” or “included” or allowed to better ourselves. What gets me is that whites are the vast majority of this nation, why so much anger, race and resentment towards equal rights programs for blacks?
Asians are not excluded from jobs, programs, etc as we are. Many of us as blacks have dealt with it on the job or in school where our ambition was fought while Asians ( who tend to be highly ambitious ) are ignored. It’s insane to me and these protection and rights programs need to be kept in place.
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solesearch:
There’s nothing wrong with scientific polling, though contrary to your implication, it’s the starting point rather than the ending point for a serious discussion.
The issue here is that you’ve so far only discussed scientific polls as a general concept and haven’t actually produced any for examination. The one source of data you cited in an earlier comment did not attempt to address potential confounding variables, several of which I presented.
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@ Randy
I would NOT go by what people say on this blog. It would not be representative since people tend to comment when they either strongly agree with me or strongly DIS-agree. The lukewarm tend to lurk.
Gallup, though, polls on this sort of thing from time to time. They have a website.
Sociologists, both black and white, STUDY this stuff for a living, people like Eduardo Bonilla-Silva and Joe Feagin. Bonilla-Silva’s findings are pretty close to my own observations. Feagin runs this website:
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/
Its mission:
Go knock yourself out.
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Go knock yourself out.
Please refrain from violent verbiage else you will frighten people away, but not Randy though! On second thought employ all the violent language at your disposal! Good site by the way(racism review).
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Im a 51 year old white male. I lost my last job because I wouldn’t laugh at “git a rope” jokes & similar talk right after President Obama was elected. It was a family owned company called “Gem Dirt Sales” in Tulsa, Ok. although the majority of the employees were not related. Perhaps there was 1 or 2 peoplethere who didnt approve of the racism but if so they never spoke up. If any white person tells you that racism is dead or barely exists, THEY ARE LYING. Quite simply put it is everywhere and we white folks know it. It is the biggest shame on my people that the majority of us wont acknowledge it. No, we’re not wearing white sheets & burning crosses. Its way more subtle and insidious but we all know it exists to varying degrees. I make these statements with great sadness but complete honesty.
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Kelly Sorrels
Quite simply put it is everywhere and we white folks know it. It is the biggest shame on my people that the majority of us wont acknowledge it. No, we’re not wearing white sheets & burning crosses. Its way more subtle and insidious but we all know it exists to varying degrees. I make these statements with great sadness but complete honesty.
Very true.
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Randy,
I didn’t imply anything. I answered your question.
How is that the issue? It wasn’t the initial question. You asked how do we figure out the average opinion. I provided the correct answer.
If you needed examples, you should have asked. I’m not a mind reader.
Fortunately, abagond has provided you with some resources.
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