The Japanese American internment

Wed May 19th 2010 by abagond

In the Japanese American internment (1942-1945) the American military, with the help of the Census Bureau, sent 110,000 Japanese Americans to live in prison camps during the Second World War. All the Japanese Americans in the state of California were sent as well as some in Oregon, Washington, Arizona and about 1% of those in Hawaii.

Two-thirds were American citizens! And yet despite that, they lost their freedom and most of their property without due process of law, without having done anything wrong.

The ACLU would not fight for their rights. And when their cases did get all the way to the Supreme Court, the Court said that Japanese Americans were a threat to the country – even though they had no solid proof of that, just the racist fears of other important white men.

The FBI, unlike the president, the generals, the newspaper editors and the Supreme Court, dealt in facts, not racist fears. They were against the internment: they had already rounded up all the Japanese Americans who might be a threat, just as they had rounded up all the German and Italian Americans who might be a threat too. The FBI knew that apart from a few crackpots Japanese Americans were not a danger.

But while whites could see Italian and German Americans, fellow whites, as individuals and know that few of them were a threat – even with German U-boats right off the east coast – their racism did not allow them to see Japanese Americans that way.

Everything that could be used against them was used against them:

They were successful farmers – proof that they wanted to take over.
They seemed so innocent – proof that they were hiding some terrible plot.
A third were still citizens of the Japanese Empire – proof that their loyalties still lie with Japan (overlooking the fact that foreign-born Japanese were barred by law from becoming citizens and that most of those interned were in fact American citizens!)
Many had taken on White American ways – proof that they are trying to fool white people.

Even white racism was used to excuse further white racism:

Whites would not hire Japanese workers – so the Japanese must hate whites and want to get back at them.
Whites thought the Japanese all looked alike – so how could they tell who to trust?
Whites had a hard time reading Japanese faces – so how could they tell what they were thinking?

It was assumed rather that proved that Japanese Americans, because of their race, had more loyalty to Japan, a country most had never seen.

It was racism not military necessity that drove this. After all, Hawaii, the home of the Pacific Fleet, had more Japanese Americans than California – about a third of all Hawaiians were Japanese American – and yet only 1% of them were interned.

Years later President Ford apologized. In 1988 everyone who had been interned who was still alive received $20,000 (3,400 crowns) from the government.

See also:

Posted in stuff | 132 Comments

132 Responses

on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 20:23:31 Thaddeus

I’m guessing most of the people posting here have heard about the internment, but here’s something I bet no one else here knows:

The Bureau of Indian Affairs ran several of the camps for the government.

I don’t know if you could call this “irony” or not, actually, because irony is unsuspected and, if you think this one through to its logical conclusions, it shouldn’t be unsuspected.

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 20:30:27 leigh204

During WW2, the Japanese-Canadians were also interred and they were mainly from a province called British Columbia (BC). And if I recall, about three-fourths of them were Canadian citizens. Not only were the Japanese-Canadians in internment camps. Excuse me. I mean, “relocation centres”, they had their possessions sold ie. houses, boats, clothing, etc, for ridiculously low prices…without their permission.

LikeLiked by 2 people
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 20:39:21 J

Forgive me, but why is it ironic??

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 20:43:48 MerriMay

I second J,

Thad what are you on about?lol

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 20:47:30 Ankhesen Mié

Another excellent post, Abagond. Thanks for this.

Even white racism was used to excuse further white racism:

* Whites would not hire Japanese workers – so the Japanese must hate whites and want to get back at them.
* Whites thought the Japanese all looked alike – so how could they tell who to trust?
* Whites had a hard time reading Japanese faces – so how could they tell what they were thinking?

There’s not enough *shudder* in the world. Like, I’ve heard similar arguments since about POC in general, and man…it just seriously makes me sick to my stomach.

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 20:55:26 leigh204

@J & MerriMay:

Here’s an article regarding what I believe Thad was talking about:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-poston19feb19,0,6801916.story?page=1

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 21:24:30 J

Thanks Leigh204,

A very interesting story, though I am still not sure why it is ‘ironic’??

With regard to systems of injustice, and pitting groups against groups, or individuals against individuals, it best to say that nothing is ‘ironic’

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 21:51:14 Thaddeus

J and Merri May, please read what I wrote again: I didn’t claim it was ironic. Very much to the contrary: I claimed that it shouldn’t be unsuspected and thus isn’t ironic.

“Ironic” is J sticking an adjective in my mouth when I specifically stated the opposite.

However, I will say this: for most Americans, black or white, the BIA’s involvement is indeed unsuspected. Otherwise, this wouldn’t be news.

Poston, btw, was one of three BIA sites used by the WRA, IIRC.

To give Indian Commissioner John Collier his due, this wasn’t entirely about cynically using Japanese labor to develop lands for the Indians (though it would be interesting to hear Ank’s take on how these two groups supposedly had the same “people of color” experience in this ultimately white supremacist situation). Collier was a cultural romanticist from way back, who made his intial mark on the political scene in NYC during the pre-WWI era. There, Collier attempted to use public institutions (schools, community centers, etc.) to PRESERVE the “folkloric” cultures of the foreign immigrants then flooding into the city. When he moved onto to his position as BIA chief, he brought a similar focus to the Indian “problem”, attempting to reinvigorate tradtional and tribal life with injections of giovernment support and funds.

Under Collier, for the first time in American history, the BIA moved towards trying to solve Indians’ problems rather than the “Indian problem” under a political and theoretical framework that sought to nurture native community life rather than assimilate it.

In the WRA camps, Collier felt that the greatest threat to Japanese Americans wasn’t internment per se (as that was going to happen no matter what he or anyone else could say): it was the threat to their community life which he felt would be irrevocably destroyed by the camp experience.

Collier attempted to insert the BIA into the WRA for two reasons:

1) To develop Indian lands, in particular to use Japanese-American agricultural expertise to irrigate and bring the desert to life.

2) To keep the Japanese-Americans together and concentrated in a living community.

As bad as relocation was, what came later was worse. Collier took the BIA out of the camps when he realized that his two goals weren’t being taken seriously. Dillon Meyer, the head of the WRA, was then given a free hand to “experiment” with social engineering among the Japanese-Americans.

Meyer’s view was that this group was too cohesive and hadn’t been adequately Americanized. His solution to this was to disperse the Japanese-Americans out of the camps as isolated families and indivisuals across the American Midwest. As he famously claimed “Our ideal would be to have on Japanese per county. That way, the assimilation process would naturally take over” (Note that quote isn’t exact: it’s from memory).

Collier was thus trying to shield the Japanese from government-sponsored genocide, within the stricutres of what Congress had already decided. Meyer was attempting to speed the process up: his goal was to remove the Japanese-Americans from the face of the U.S. as a recognizable people within one generation, two at most.

This, my friends, is what the UN calls genocide.

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 21:54:41 Thaddeus

Btw, after Collier five years after resigned as BIA head in 1945, Dillon Meyer was named Indian Commissioner and attempted to undo what Collier had done by once again forcing relocation and assimilation on Native Americans.

Ironic, not. But a bit more complicated than wikischolarship whould lead you to suspect.

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 22:05:19 J

Thanks Thad,

I did not quite understand why you made the ‘defensive gesture’, to which was a perfectly innocent question on my part…Honest!!

I guess that reveals an unconscious response on you part, with regard to me.

Be that as it may, as I began to read through your post. I realised maybe you were in fact right.

As I read through, unless I have misunderstood you, much of what you say in your last post sounds rather ironic.

However that is another story

And paradoxically ‘everything’ is now seeming ‘ironic’.

Not to worry though.

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 23:43:08 Kit (Keep It Trill)

I’ve often wondered what will happen over here if we ever go to war with an African country.

LikeLike
on Sat May 22nd 2010 at 23:47:20 Thaddeus

Well it IS ironic, but it shouldn’t be if we presume that the BIA is always evil and didn’t realize that they were involved in the WRA.

It is simply ironic if presume that the BIa is always evil.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 00:20:11 J

I think I now have a clearer picture

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 01:43:09 Thaddeus

@Kit
The war would probably be over before most Americans even noticed, absent some radical reordering of the global socio-political structure.

But then again, America goes to war in Africa all the time: Somalia, the Sudan.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 01:46:29 Thaddeus

For further reading, see Drinnon: Keeper of Concentration Camps.

http://www.amazon.com/Keeper-Concentration-Camps-Dillon-American/dp/0520066014

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 01:57:21 J

Cheers mate!!

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 02:33:28 Reginald

Reginald @ Kit

Vietnam and Korea should remind everybody that 3rd world countries don’t always just lay down and die when larger countries wage wars against them. Sometimes things don’t turn out the way that you think they will. What will it take before you male humans learn that it is your testosterone thats killing you off so rapidly. If you keep it up, women will be running the world. Correction, women are running the world. You genius’s just have’nt noticed. You are to busy waging important wars against each other in the name of nonsense. Ok, fellas you can go back to doing what you do best. Messing up the world.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 03:18:34 Thaddeus

What will it take before you male humans learn that it is your testosterone thats killing you off so rapidly.

As Margaret Thatcher, Golda Meir and Sara Palin demonstrate so conclusively. (Roll eyes.)

Aggression is a human trait, not a male trait Reginald.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 03:48:34 Wrissa

Reginald, men are the brawn and women are the brains duh. lol jk

This might sound weird, but sometimes I actually forget that that ever happened. Even after reading the book Farewell to Manzanar in elementary and seeing that episode of Cold Case about this event.

It’s just it’s never really talked about ever. Not even when we covered the WW2 in high school. Even when I did this program for Gilbert and Lehrman Institute of American History. We focused so much on what happened to the Jewish people, the aftermath of the bombs in Japan, and the Civil Rights Movement. It’s like we skipped right over it. Now that I’m recalling all of this, I think this was done because either the Japanese-Americas got reparations (so it’s settled and not worth acknowledging) and/or because the U.S. likes to not bring up it’s flaws. It already has slavery against it so it’s tries to focus on other countries problems. Typical.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 12:37:12 J

ha ha ha ha ha Reginald!!

I think I have to concur with you once again.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 13:12:33 Thaddeus

Vietnam and Korea should remind everybody that 3rd world countries don’t always just lay down and die when larger countries wage wars against them.

I dunno, man. North Korea looks pretty dead to me. And let’s recall that if it weren’t for CHINESE intervention, the U.S./U.N. would have pretty much had their way in Korea, no matter what the North Koreans thought about the situation.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 16:28:51 Reginald

Reginald @ Thaddeus

As your reasoning already predicts, your perception of what is, overides the conclusion of the big picture. Like I already said, that is the depth of your logic.

Men do, and then think. You create problems in your past that completely overwhelm your future. By just using a little bit of fore thought, men would have been able to offset the outcome of their future of your world.

At the time of the Korean War, ape like thinking once again helped to create a mad man like dictator who now leads North Korea. You created him in 1951. It is your fault that he has risen into a dictator.

His paranoid kingdom was given birth by your paranoia about Communism. He saw invaders attempting to overtake his little country. As he grew, conditions of threat became even more mentally pressing upon his little monkey brain.

You then threatened him and now he threatens you. Mankinds inability to consider and think through his actions alarms and condemns every living thing on this world. Here is your creed and your motto.

“We do, and then we think.” It is always a recipe for social and ecological disaster and you are good at it. You are so close to wiping yourselves off of the face of the earth. You have been given every chance, every advantage.

Then you have the audasity and gall to think that it is your birth right to continue in this way. Look around my friend and see your world as you build and continue to contaminate everything you touch. You have created a hell like planet that could have been a beautiful and paradise like existence.

I also noticed, you did not mention Vietnam. I guess its hard to admit defeat. Don’t worry the Russians share your non-victory in Afghanistan in the 1980’s which also gave birth to Asama Bin Ladens present reign of terror.

By the way, around 1776 the American Revolution was fought, and a bunch of rag tag freedom fighters called themselves the Minute Men put a down home ass whopping on a well trained and equipted British Army.

Your testosterone levels are so high most of the time that you can’t even see which wars are best to fight and which wars you should avoid. I call this “Intelligent Stupidity.” and you are good at it also.

Good luck, in your apparent decline into a very dark and ugly abyss. You worked so hard for it and deserve every bit of the fruits of your labors.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 17:45:29 Thaddeus

@Regi
As your reasoning already predicts, your perception of what is, overides the conclusion of the big picture.

Reg, I’ve just spent last week re-reading the post-modern anthropological classics. Even by that standard, the phrase of yours quoted above is a doozy! Do you think that “You’re prejudiced in your opinions” might serve as a subsitute? And if you do (because it should), why include all the unnecessary verbiage? It doesn’t make your opinion easier to understand, nor does it give your opinion more rhetorical weight.

Just a nit.

Now, on to the meat of the matter…

You created him in 1951. It is your fault that he has risen into a dictator.

Friend, back in 1951, my mom was 6 and my dad was 11. I wasn’t even an unpure thought in either of their brains at the time, let alone the agent responsible for Kim Il-Sung (who, by the way, no longer leads North Korea – a nit, but nevertheless…)

I also noticed, you did not mention Vietnam. I guess its hard to admit defeat.

I’m a Brazilian citizen, Reg. As far as I know, Brazil never invaded Vietnam.

Your testosterone levels are so high most of the time that you can’t even see which wars are best to fight and which wars you should avoid. I call this “Intelligent Stupidity.” and you are good at it also.

Reg, you think Kim Il Sung still rules Korea, you apparently cannot distinguish between social and psychological action and you think Brazil was defeated by Vietnam. You’re in no position to be juding other people’s intelligence – or lack thereof.

Plus, your writing style is some awful combination of faux-Victorian bodice-ripper and Scientology.

Here’s a clean rag, Reg: go mop up your mess.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 20:21:01 Reginald

Reginald @ Thad

Your little tit “a” tat with Kit is what I responded to. Actually, my original response was to “Kit.” You responded to something I said to Kit , apparently to assert your agreement with Kit. I assumed Kit could respond on his or her own, but you beat him or her to it. Sounds like high levels of testosterone are kicking in again. Let Kit answer for Kit. You being in Brazil, just happens to be a geographical perception error on your part. Your mindset and thought processes are obviously hovering here in the west. It is apparent to me that you share the same self destructive limitations of your constituents all over the world. I bet you meditate a lot. Your writing skills also have a certain flare. Notice how I actually gave you a compliment. It is called good manners. Some people still have them. Now, I invite you to bring the rumble to the jungle. Just because I write in a peaceful way, in no way means I shrink from bullies. I can rumble on a keyboard. Bullies are my specialty. Thank you for your critique on my writing style. “Faux-Victorian bodice ripper and Scientology.” Quite a high compliment coming all the way from Brazil. Hope to hear from you soon. The admiration is greatly appreciated. Your turn.

LikeLike
on Sun May 23rd 2010 at 21:05:43 Thaddeus

You being in Brazil, just happens to be a geographical perception error on your part. Your mindset and thought processes are obviously hovering here in the west.

Define “west”. Go ahead. I dare you! 😀

And if you can do that, please tell me why you apparently make the presumption that Brazil – or any place on the planet, for that matter – is not part of the west.

Here’s how I see the “west”:

An intellectual construct which rather dim undergrads refer to when they want to discredit an opinion, person, or phenomenon without actually having to do the work of substantively critiquing it.

Association with the adjective “western” is thought by said post-adolescents to shift any human concept into the realm of ultimate evil. This essentially rhetorical shift usually occurs while said undergrad is simultaneously reproducing their physical existence with fast food, listening to music on digitally recorded media and spreading their rather jejeune thoughts via a computer linked to the internet – all physical technologies which are by any stretch of the imagination “western” in origin.

In other words “west” is a concept used mostly by westerners to dismiss whatever they don’t like about their current reality while simultaneously maintaining their privileged position within the entirely and thoroughly globalized mode of production that is industrial capitalism.

It is the rhetorical equivalent of a well-fed middle-class brat telling his parents that he didn’t ask to be born.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 03:35:22 Sam R.

Please call them what they were: concentration camps. “Internment camps” don’t exactly sound like a fun weekend, but that’s just further euphemizing the already euphemistic “concentration camp.”

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 09:29:29 Thaddeus

“Concentration moon,
Over the camp in the valley
Concentration moon,
Wish I was back in the alley
With all my friends
Still running free
Hair growing out every hole in me.”

-Frank Zappa

Sam, “Internment camp” and “Concentration camp” are exact synonyms.

You prefer the second term over the first probably because of its associations with nazism. But even under the Nazis, there was a difference between concentration camps and exterminationn camps.

So, really, it’s a cheap rhetorical point. “Concentration camp” is not “worse” or “more correct” than “internment camp”.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 14:12:39 Color O'Luv

Lets not forget the “concentration camps” the JAPANESE had during the war. AMERICANS were also rounded up:

In total, approximately 130,000 Allied civilians were interned by the Japanese during this period of occupation. The exact number of internees will never be known as records were often lost, destroyed, or simply not kept.

The backgrounds of the internees were diverse. There was a large proportion of Dutch from the Dutch East Indies, but they also included Americans, British, and Australians. They included missionaries and their families, colonial administrators, and business people. Many had been living in the colonies for decades. Single women had often been nuns, missionaries, doctors, teachers and nurses.

Civilians interned by the Japanese were treated marginally better than the prisoners of war, but their death rates were the same. Although they had to work to run their own camps, few were made to labour on construction projects. The Japanese devised no consistent policies or guidelines to regulate the treatment of the civilians. Camp conditions and the treatment of internees varied from camp to camp. The general experience, however, was one of malnutrition, disease, and varying degrees of harsh discipline and brutality from the Japanese guards. Some Dutch women were forced into sexual slavery.”

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 15:01:03 leigh204

I thought we were discussing Americans of Japanese descent not the Japanese.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 15:13:40 Color O'Luv

@Leigh… very true.

I just didn’t know where else to place the comment. I figured Abagond wouldn’t be doing a post anytime soon on 130,000 prisoners rounded up and placed in concentration camps by the Japanese, so I thought I would point out that “concentration camps” of innocent civilians was taking place on both sides of the war.

Most people don’t realize while the atrocity of ‘internment camps’ was occurring on U.S. soil, the same thing was being done by Japan.

War is an ugly thing from any perspective.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 15:20:55 Thaddeus

Leigh, the point is the Americans and the Nazis weren’t the only ones running concentration camps. Internment or concentration camps for citizens of enemy powers were common all over the world.

What was screwed in the American experience wasn’t the concentration camp itself (at least not from a world legal perspective) but the fact that American CITIZENS got sent to them based on their ethnicity alone.

In other words, the issue of the camps themselves shouldn’t be much of a problem ehre, unless we want to take a humanist viewpoint and criticize every warring nation on earth.

AFAIK, the Japanese did not stick Japanese of American descent into their camps, though I could be wrong about that.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 16:10:00 Poetess

Let me get this straight. The American government apologized to the Japanese AND gave them 20,000 but reparations for 400 years of slavery and Jim Crow is off the table. WTF?

Not saying the Japanese American brothers and sisters did not deserve that and more, but what about AA? Why is it considered so unreasonable to do the same for us?

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 16:28:45 Leaveumthinking

I agree with you Poetess.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 16:42:49 leigh204

@Poetess:

Let me get this straight. The American government apologized to the Japanese AND gave them 20,000 but reparations for 400 years of slavery and Jim Crow is off the table. WTF?

Not saying the Japanese American brothers and sisters did not deserve that and more, but what about AA? Why is it considered so unreasonable to do the same for us?

Co-sign!

@Thaddeus:

Leigh, the point is the Americans and the Nazis weren’t the only ones running concentration camps. Internment or concentration camps for citizens of enemy powers were common all over the world.

What was screwed in the American experience wasn’t the concentration camp itself (at least not from a world legal perspective) but the fact that American CITIZENS got sent to them based on their ethnicity alone.

I know. That’s why I mentioned it…the part about Americans of Japanese descent not the Japanese.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 18:42:54 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Quite the contrary. Brazil definately qualifies as a card carrying member of western concepts and adheres to all of its rules almost to the letter.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 19:00:23 Thaddeus

Let me get this straight. The American government apologized to the Japanese AND gave them 20,000 but reparations for 400 years of slavery and Jim Crow is off the table. WTF?

I’m sure the U.S. would be happy to follow the same logic as in the case of the Japanese and give 20,000 smackers to each SURVIVING victim of slavery.

Remember that this “Sorry” happened 40 some years later. How many surviving internees do you think there were? Maybe 10,000? At most?

Hell, 4,000,000 smackers is spare change to Unka Sugah.

But hell, let’s say that the U.S. goes nuts and decides to offer repatriations for all the descendants of the slaves. How’s that going to be done, first of all? By blood quantum? Because there are a lot of white people out there who are also slave descedents and you’d better believe they’ll come out of the woodwork if a handout is in the offering.

But let’s say we figure it’s the equivalent of 30,000,000 concentration camp inmates.

You SERIOUSLY want the U.S. to hand out 6 billion dollars and then say “That’s it, black people! We no longer are bound to think about racism because you’ve received your ‘I’m sorry’ cash”?

You should present this idea to the far Republican right, Poetess. They’d love it. A 6 billion dollar one-time settlement to never have to think about racial justice or affirmative action again would probably be considered a good buy.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 19:00:57 Thaddeus

@Regi
Quite the contrary. Brazil definately qualifies as a card carrying member of western concepts and adheres to all of its rules almost to the letter.

Can you name one country that DOESN’T?

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 19:10:13 Herneith

Because there are a lot of white people out there who are also slave descedents and you’d better believe they’ll come out of the woodwork if a handout is in the offering.

For that alone it would be worth it! Hahaha!

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 20:35:36 Reginald

Reginald @ Herneith

Stop being a bad girl.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 20:39:25 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Unfortunately no. That does’nt say very much for us as a species, does it.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 21:02:36 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

I was just reading your response about Japanese compensation. I don’t know how your system in Brazil works, but wouldnt it be funny if the decendants of slaves in Brazil where to sue the government for retroactive compensation and instead of taking money from the government, petition to be exempt from taxes instead. At the same time decendants of slaves here in the USA filed for the exact same tax benefits. Along with the decendants of slaves living in the UK and the Carribean Islands doing the same. Its a thought that could reap some benefit to all that were involved. Especially if everyone used the Internet to exchange ideas and stradegies with each other. What do you think ?

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 21:03:04 J

Thad,

That is not how the issue works under international law.

“You SERIOUSLY want the U.S. to hand out 6 billion dollars and then say “That’s it, black people! We no longer are bound to think about racism because you’ve received your ‘I’m sorry’ cash”?”

And let us not forget that Italy recently paid reparations to Libya for past wrong-doings

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 22:27:16 Thaddeus

Unfortunately no. That does’nt say very much for us as a species, does it.

So let me see if I understand…

You make a distinction between “the west” and “the rest”. Meanwhile, you freely admit that there’s no “rest”, that it’s all a case of “the west” now. So essentially, humanity is basically completely associated with that characteristic which you despise – and which you’re not even capable of defining, actually.

Your problem, Regi, is that you are a misanthropist: you hate humankind (at least as far as it really exists).

Given that, why should anyone take anything you prescribe regarding humanity seriously?

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 22:30:33 Thaddeus

That is not how the issue works under international law.

Under international law, it would be very hard to argue reparations, period. In both the Italian/Libyan and U.S./ethnic Japanese cases, you have survivors alive today and some sort of clear-cut lineage regarding the crimes.

But note that NEITHER the U.S. nor Italian cases have anything to do with international law. Both countries voluntarily paid out those sums and asked for appologies from people who had been hurt by their acts in living memory.

I’m not aware of any area of international law (which is pretty vague) which can cover the U.S.-slavery case.

LikeLike
on Mon May 24th 2010 at 22:44:57 J

Thad,

You are moving too fast and away from my point

I was trying to show you that if US. paid reparation (and reparation falls within the remit of International law) to Blacks then it would not absolve the government of any future acts of racism etc, something you seem to suggest, and hence my initial comment.

Hope this has clarified.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 00:05:25 Thaddeus

reparation falls within the remit of International law

Where? Seriously, where in international law is a point like this covered?

….then it would not absolve the government of any future acts of racism etc, something you seem to suggest, and hence my initial comment.

Future acts, agreed. But what about the past? That’s all going to be put by-the-by then?

And 20,000 bucks per? I can easily see the United States, in a hypothetical international court of law, pulling out a list and showing that it’s easily spent that much already on black-directed programs.

Reparations is simply something that isn’t going to happen, outside the realm of science fiction. And if it did happen, along the lines of the Japanese-American settlement, it would be EXTREMELY easy to turn it against black people.

Reparations are a pipe dream. Literally. The kind of idea that gets into someone’s head after smoking too much and listening to a lot of Bob Marley.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 00:14:08 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

If you read what I said, my intention would be to give the lower socioeconomic people a bargining chip which may allow them to grab hold of a small piece of a dream that they may have missed. Tax breaks for them might allow their families to buy more seed for planting new crops or materials and equiptment that they would otherwise not have the money to buy with. Allowing them a small gratuity which could actually change their lives. As far as being fair, we all know that every goverment in the world would try to cheat beat and swindle people out of what ever they can. I just thought that This approach could be used a an introductory bargaining chip. Not a closed end deal. What solutions do any of you have to start to address reparation for slavery around the world.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 00:25:10 J

Thad,

It would seriously help matters if you could quote accurately.

This is what you said:

“You SERIOUSLY want the U.S. to hand out 6 billion dollars and then say “That’s it, black people! We no longer are bound to think about racism because you’ve received your ‘I’m sorry’ cash”?

You should present this idea to the far Republican right, Poetess. They’d love it. A 6 billion dollar one-time settlement to never have to think about racial justice or affirmative action again would probably be considered a good buy”.

With regard to:

“Reparations are a pipe dream. Literally. The kind of idea that gets into someone’s head after smoking too much and listening to a lot of Bob Marley”.

I am not sure why you had to make reference to marijuana, Bob Marley,

Its the type of nonsense you hear ‘White racist’ here in the UK say,when speaking to Black people, ana attempting to put them down..

This is the second time such an unconscious process reveals much (ietalk about calling the kettle ass Black).

Why could you not have just come out and said that YOU are against reparation and then there would be no need for the anology or mis-interpretation on your part.

Whether you like it or not there are people fighting for reparations for Black people, and they are not smoking either.

“Notably, the debate over reparations for slavery is not confined to the United States, or even to former slave-holding countries. A coalition of NGOs has brought the debate to the global level, successfully lobbying to have the issue of reparations and other forms of compensation included in the agenda for the UN World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance that was held in Durban, South Africa in 2001”.

http://www.cceia.org/resources/picks/175.html

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 00:39:51 Reginald

Reginald @ “J”

I like your solutions “J”
If we all could learn to reason this way it would probably deter anyone of thinking about making slaves out of other people. Especially if they remembered the final cost of reparation and its penalties. Good thinking.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 00:44:32 J

Cheers Reginald,

However, it is not my plan though. Its the way of internetional law. It is possible for a nation to be held accountable for their wrong-doing, even though the likes of Thad does not like this concep, or at the very least as it specifically applies to African Americans.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 01:09:35 Reginald

Reginald @ “J”

Either way, I like it because it somehow makes all countires directly accountable and responsible for their actions with reference in this case to human slavery.

You might be onto something. Thank you for making everyone aware of this.

This is what I call the beginning of a solution.

Well done “J”

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 01:56:12 Thaddeus

I am not sure why you had to make reference to marijuana, Bob Marley…

Because “reparate” and “repatriate” often get mixed up in this sort of discussion. 😀

Why could you not have just come out and said that YOU are against reparation and then there would be no need for the anology or mis-interpretation on your part.

Hey, if you can convince the U.S. government to seriously contemplate giving 6.000.000.000 dollars to black people as reparations for slavery, I’ll vote for it. Whatever, man. Just don’t blame me for the likely results which – unless I’m greatly mistaken – will be white Americans saying “We no longer have a historic debt to black Americans”.

Whether you like it or not there are people fighting for reparations for Black people, and they are not smoking either.

Good on them! You be sure to tell me when it gets beyond the radicals espousing to other radicals stage, when any non-black radical group starts seriously considering it, OK? Because I don’t see how you’re going to convince the U.S. to voluntarily hand over this sort of cash unless, of course, the whole transaction can be turned against black people, somehow.

Until then, I’m going to continue to believe that it’s a lot of wasted effort that could be much better directed towards other goals.

A coalition of NGOs has brought the debate to the global level, successfully lobbying to have the issue of reparations and other forms of compensation included in the agenda for the UN World Conference against racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance that was held in Durban, South Africa in 2001.

Oh, well then. A “coalition of NGOs” put it on the Durban Agenda – an agenda, IIRC, that was boycotted by the U.S.

Perhaps you’re hoping that China is going to hold the U.S.’s feet to the fire on this issue someday, J? Or do you think that the U.S.’ great respect for the U.N. – and especially for the U.N. anti-racism group – is going to change that country’s ways?

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 01:57:31 Thaddeus

(By the way, I personally know many of Brazil’s reps to Durban and I wouldn’t cross my heart and swear on sacred books that they don’t smoke and bliss out to Marley records.)

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 02:07:00 Thaddeus

Regi sez:

If you read what I said, my intention would be to give the lower socioeconomic people a bargining chip which may allow them to grab hold of a small piece of a dream that they may have missed. yada yada yada

Good on you, Reg, but what does this have to do with either testosterone or the west, which was what our discussion was about?

If we all could learn to reason this way it would probably deter anyone of thinking about making slaves out of other people. Especially if they remembered the final cost of reparation and its penalties.

Cost of reparations to blacks, following the U.S. -says-its-sorry-to-Japanese-Americans model: 6 billion dollars.

Cost of one Nimitz-class nuclear aircraft carrier (the U.S. has 10): 4.5 billion dollars.

Cost of wars in Iraq and Afganistan so far: about one trillion dollars, so far.

I think we can very safely say, Regi, that this sort of cost isn’t going to make the U.S. think twice about doing dirt to people in the future.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 02:09:24 Thaddeus

J sez:
However, it is not my plan though. Its the way of internetional law. It is possible for a nation to be held accountable for their wrong-doing, even though the likes of Thad does not like this concep, or at the very least as it specifically applies to African Americans.

Liking the idea or not has nothing to do with it, J: I’d just like you to show me where this is international law. Durban spun donuts on the lawn: no laws promulgated there that pertain to this. The Italy/Libya and U.S. reparations were voluntary.

So where’s the law regarding this? I don’t see it. Perhaps you’d be a pal and point it out…?

I mean, there is a corpus of international law on things like genocide, trafficking of people, etc. Where’s that corpus regarding reparations for slavery or any other, similar, question?

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 02:12:58 Reginald

Reginald @ Thad

I was waiting for you to get really emotional. People with huge and large egos often do. Mostly at the wrong time. Thanks for not letting me down.

You reacted exactly the way I anticipated.

Above all, really try to keep that testosterone level just a tad lower. It has a tendency to send your blood pressure way out of control.

Just imagine, the thing that most upsets you is someone saying “Reparation.” Who would have guessed ?

REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,REPARATION,

You ought to be really mad now, HUH!!!

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 02:30:35 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

I just love the sound of a beautiful word like

“REPARATION”

Do you like it as much as I do ?

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 10:44:49 J

No Thad it is because you are a racist.

What has “Because “reparate” and “repatriate” often get mixed up in this sort of discussion” got to do with anything apart from your vain imaginings.

No-one here has been confusing ‘reparation’ with ‘repatriation’.

What you say here reminds me of the excuse you used to one of the commentators here about black-ass-kettle to hide your attempt to put down someone through the use of a racial insult..

You were foolish enough to write, revealing your ignorance and racism the following:

“Reparations are a pipe dream. Literally. The kind of idea that gets into someone’s head after smoking too much and listening to a lot of Bob Marley”.

I showed you that your own conscious racist stereotyping (since its happened more than once) particularly of Black people in this instance was utterly false and groups across the world even outside America were fighting that very cause which you say is a ‘pipe dream’.

Finally with regard to more foolishness -on your part. As a lecturer your ability to reason is so very poor. Be that as it may you said:

“I mean, there is a corpus of international law on things like genocide, trafficking of people, etc. Where’s that corpus regarding reparations for slavery or any other, similar, question?”

The same very point you raise here of ‘genocide’ is exactly what slavery was, and if you like it also involves ‘trafficking’. I am fully aware that your own eccentric politics will not view slavery as such.

So under these points it could be argued. Then again if you know anything about ‘law’. It can also be applied retrospectively also, even if the issue of ‘reparations’ did not exist back then.

And if you disbelieve this then you are more ignorant than I thought you were. I dare not even suggest the racism aspect to your character wich is becoming more and more insidious.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 11:54:31 Thaddeus

I was waiting for you to get really emotional.

Really emotional? LOL.

Regi, do question marks count as “emotional” in your lexicon? Because I’m looking at what I’ve written above and, for the life of me, can’t see emotion in it other than, perhaps, a sort of lowkey irony.

You reacted exactly the way I anticipated.

I bet that happens to you a lot, Regi, seeing as how you’re sitting in front of a computer screen fantasizing about your interlocutors’ emotions. I bet your fantasies often end up 100% in line with your expectations.

Fantasize away, friend! It’s good for the soul!

But let’s get back to earth and to what’s really been said, shall we?

Reparations on the order of what was paid out to the Japanese would:

1) Be no real sweat for the U.S. and would thus not likely constitute a bar against further evil-doing. The U.S. illegally invaded Iraq and chalked up 1 trillion dollars so far in that escapade. I really doubt that the threat of 6 billion more in reparations would cause anyone in the Federal government to lose sleep at night. They aren’t going to pay reparations not because they couldn’t, but because the 88% of the American voting public and the 95% of its power elite that aren’t black have no reason to do so and no one to force them to do so.

2) Reparations, as far as I know, are not covered under any form of international law. A group of NGOs dicussing them at Durban does not constitute anything like a recognized body of law. Even if the U.N. General Secretariat were to call for reparations, good luck getting the U.S. or any other nation to follow them: the U.N. is hardly an effective international legal body. International law only works to the degree that the big boys want it to work and not a step further. There’s a reason the U.S. boycotted Durban and won’t sign the U.N.’s resolution on genocide.

3) Given these two facts alone – not even discussing any problems with how reparations would be implemented – we’re not liable to see reparations, ever.

4) Given the fact that it’s an impossibility and a pipe-dream, money and time spent on political activity in favor of reparations is money and time wasted, diverted from projects that actually DO have a chance of succeeding.

In Brazil, for example, substantial movement towards affirmative action only began AFTER Durban, when the black movements’ rhetorical calls for reparations were quitely shelved in favor of militancy regarding a set of laws that can indeed be enacted in Brazil with some possibility of success. Even so, the affirmative action struggle has been long and hard an I very much doubt that its current popular form (quotas) is going to do much to change Brazilian inequalities. Still, it’s produced a hell of a lot more than the prior decade’s chanting of the “reparations” mantra.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 12:22:35 Thaddeus

No Thad it is because you are a racist.

As are you, J.

Don’t forget that I once called you a “nitpicker”, symbolically associating you with a monkey in a clearly racist putdown. And I’ve used “denigrate” a time or two, obviously associating blackness with negativity, another racist move. I’ve also mentioned “jewelry”, so you might as well chalk me up as anti-semitic as well. 😀

Glad we’ve got the ritual ad hominems and exagerations out of your system. 😀

Now to get serious…

The same very point you raise here of ‘genocide’ is exactly what slavery was, and if you like it also involves ‘trafficking’. I am fully aware that your own eccentric politics will not view slavery as such.

You’re going to have an impossible time proving either of those two points under international law and leading them to reparations, J. First of all, neither anti-trafficking or anti-genocide provisions in what passes for international law mention anything like reparations for those crimes. In fact, international law as practiced in Europe and the U.S. (which have tried the lion’s share of trafficking cases so far) almost unanimously situate REPATRIATION as the approved solution for trafficking: the victim is returned to their country of origin. As W.E.B. Dubois pointed out with regards to your pal Garvey’s pipe dream of “back to Africa”, a lot of white racists would absolutely love that outcome, because it indicates that blacks have no “natural” right to be in the U.S.

Secondly, trafficking is a body of law applied to individuals or gangs, not to vaguely defined social groupings like “white people” or “the United States of America”. States, by definition of international trafficking law, CAN’T traffick. In fact, this is at the root of my b1tching about the immorality of immigration law as it stands. If I were to knock you out and transport you somewhere else against your will, I would rightly be defined as a “human trafficker”. If the STATE does it, however, it’s totally within its rights as they are currently defined under international law. Unfortunately, states have nigh-unlimited soverignty within their borders when it comes to determining who stays and who goes.

The upshot of all this is that you’re not going to be able to turn the legal instruments set up to repress individuals and gangs who illegally traffic towards the reparations struggle. Not without the active collusion of the people you are trying to punish and that – as Marx will tell you – ain’t gonna happen.

With regards to genocide, there’s a bit of a better legal ground (though far from an open and shut case). But, again, the U.N. convention on genocide which would allow you to prosecute the U.S. has not been signed by the U.S. SPECIFICALLY because it COULD be used to prosecute that nation for slavery and forced assimilation. So what you have there is a legal document that’s not been recognized as legitimate by the party you’re trying to nail. When that happens in the real world of state-based law, you call the cops or the army. Good luck in getting the blue helmets to go after the U.S. and drag Barack Obama to the witness stand at The Hague.

Summing up, I think reparations, while a wonderful idea in theory, is a complete stoner’s pipe dream in practice. To hold it out as any possible effective strategy for the improvement of black peoples’ lives in the real world is to believe that a dogmatic fantasy of a small group of militants is somehow going to convince the very people they are trying to punish to punish themselves. Everything we know about political science says this isn’t going to happen.

So absent some radical reorientation of world power and politics which would put the U.S. in the position of, say, Iran or South Africa, reparations isn’t going to happen.

And even if we were to presume such a radical change in global affairs, then we’d needs must presume a radically broke and powerless United States of America. How would such an entity pay reparations and do you really think that any notional future superpower forcing such a situation would really care about the plight of black Americans? Even if said superpower were, say, Nigeria? Again, history indicates that they would not. They’d have their own agendas to worry about.

Thus to say that reparations are a pipe dream isn’t racist, J, it’s a simple fact. You’re just angry, once again, because reality doesn’t match up with your dogma and I’ve pointed that out.

But I’ll go one more: I’ll argue that to the degree that you go chasing the reparations fairy, you are wasting time, money and energy that could be used to implement real, possible change. To the degree that you are wasting the collective energy of anti-racists dicussing this ultimately unimplentable idea, you are REDUCING presure for real, anti-racist change.

If I were a racist, J, I’d LOVE reparations. I’d do everything in my power to get black people talking about them 24/7. From the oppressor’s point of view, it’s much nicer to have the people you are oppressing discussing utopian fantasies of an eventual Jubilee than it is having them talking about actual, workable plans to get free and bring the oppressor down.

There’s a reason black people – enslaved in America or “free” in Africa – were always allowed religion by the colonial powers, J. Reparations is just more of the same old happy-crappy.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 12:27:33 J

However, after your long post. The point remains that there are a variety people across the world fighting reparations. Its only in your racist imaginings THAT these people are smoking weed and listening to too much Bob Marley records

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 12:46:16 Thaddeus

J has stated his ritual litany of exagerations and lies that he likes to place in my mouth, so let me do my ritual of confirming/denying them.

1. He said that Marcus Garvey was a fascist
An exageration. I follow Paul Gilroy’s analysis of Marcus Garvey’s movement as sharing several fascist-like traits. Garvey himself claimed to have INVENTED fascism, so why J thinks this is a calumny is beyond me. His hero obviously thought Mussolini was onto something good.

2. He believed that that White women and Black women were treated the ‘same’ during slavery.
A simple lie or an inability to follow my argument. I believe that neither black nor white women had much individual agency over their sexuality during slavery (and afterwards), so the whole “rape during slavery” discussion is actually a red herring. What was REALLY the key distinction between black and white female sexualities during the period was not rape (defined as sex under conditions of unequal power), but the removal of black women from the realm of family law, which was really women’s only protection at the time (to the degree that they had any).

3. He attempts to ‘minimise’ the role of rape during slavery as a reality for Black women.
See the argument above. It’s not so much “minimizing” as believing that the worst of the oppression was situated in another locus. If we define “rape” conventionally, then black women suffered much more than white. However, many people here define rape as “sex under any conditions of unequal power”. That, to me, is the TRUE minimization of rape during slavery as it effectively washes the specificities of slave women’s experiences into a condition that was true of women in general.

4. His dislike for ‘African centred’ thinking
I dislike much of J’s thinking, which J claims as afrocentric but which seems to me to be almost wholly based on late-19th century European thought of the most specious kind. As far as I can tell as, aside from dropping the names of a few African difusionists, J has never presented anything like a coherent view of “African centered thought” as anything other than “I, J, claim that this idea is African-centered and so it must be.” J believes that all he does is ipso fato “afrocentered” and that anyone who disagrees with him is thus ipso fato anti-african centered. Because J and I often disagree, that makes me anti-african-centered in his eyes.

5. He is against Blacks having race pride
Correct. Of course, I’m against the idea of race pride in general, for ANYBODY. I think race itself is one of the stupider ideas that Europe came up with and I do not think that simply inverting the valences turns a bad European idea into a good “African centered” idea.

6. He argues against accept cultural unity for Blacks
Hard to understand what J means here. Do I argue against cultural unity for blacks? Well, I argue against the idea that any “race” is, was, or ever will be culturally unified. The notion of racial cultural unity is straight out of Adolph Hitler – unless, of course, you take Marcus Garvey’s belief that he invented fascism seriously. Actually, the real roots of the concept can be found in Galton, Gobineau, Stoddard, Grant and a whole series of late-19th century WHITE scientific racists. Both Garvey and Hitler took these men to be as serious as cancer, so it’s no wonder their philosophies regarding race as a cultural and political unit were so similar.

Anyway you cut it, the idea of “racial” unity stinks to high heaven. It is authoritarian, elitist and ultimately colonialist in nature. I have yet to see it present one redeeming quality. Furthermore, no African, as far as I know, ever used anything approaching the concept of race until Europeans brought it to Africa. By definition, then, “racial pride” is about as Euro-centered a concept as one can articulate.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 12:51:19 Thaddeus

The point remains that there are a variety people across the world fighting reparations. Its only in your racist imaginings THAT these people are smoking weed and listening to too much Bob Marley records.

Back in my undergrad days, many moons ago, I smoked weed and listened to Bob Marley with many of those people, J. Why you think smoking weed and listening to Bob Marley is a “black” thing is beyond me: it’s a general anti-racist and youth thing.

Reparations is the kind of stupid idea that gets into a kid’s head after listening to Garveyist rhetoric while under the influence. Whether the kid in question is white or black, the idea that it is some sort of basis for real political activity is puerile. The fact that many anti-racists, white or black, still believe in the romantic dogmas of their youth well into middle age does not recommend the concept of reparations as effective.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 12:56:46 Thaddeus

Nothing wrong with reparations, the japanese recieved money for their pain and suffering why not the slaves’ descendants?…20,000 is a lot of money but i think they deserved more for this crap here, at least a million for each.

Good luck with that. A three TRILLION dollar pay-off might actually make even the United States sit up and take notice.

FFFFFFFFFpt.

As long as we are fantasizing here, hell, why not ask for one hundred million dollars for each descendent fo slaves and a further 50 million for each black african?

Now all we got to do is figure out how to collect it.

I know! We’ll get the white kids to listen to even MORE Bob Marley while stoned than usual. Then, once Garvey’s wise words have penetrated to the depths of their subconsciousness, they’ll be ready to vote black people all the money in the world.

Yeah, that’s the ticket!

Folks, here’s the bottom line, truly. All my thoughts on this matter can be boiled down to this one thing:

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:00:46 J

Good try Thad,

This still does not take away from anything I have said.

Although you have attempted to find rationalisations, rhetoric, spurious reasoning etc. You have done nothing to refute the contention that:

“The point remains that there are a variety people across the world fighting reparations. Its only in your racist imaginings THA[D]/T these people are smoking weed and listening to too much Bob Marley records”

The only way you can refute this contention is to address what has been said – and not by the use of ‘sophistry’.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:02:21 Thaddeus

Nothing wrong with reparations, the japanese recieved money for their pain and suffering why not the slaves’ descendants?…20,000 is a lot of money but i think they deserved more for this crap here, at least a million for each.

Good luck with that. A three TRILLION dollar pay-off might actually make even the United States sit up and take notice.

FFFFFFFFFpt.

As long as we are fantasizing here, hell, why not ask for one hundred million dollars for each descendent fo slaves and a further 50 million for each black african?

Now all we got to do is figure out how to collect it.

I know! We’ll get the white kids to listen to even MORE Bob Marley while stoned than usual. Then, once Garvey’s wise words have penetrated to the depths of their subconsciousness, they’ll be ready to vote black people all the money in the world.

Yeah, that’s the ticket!

Folks, here’s the bottom line, truly. All my thoughts on this matter can be boiled down to this one thing: HOW ARE REPARATIONS GOING TO BE ENFORCED? Where’s the court of law that’s going to rule on this? The Hague, that well-known ex-slave trading port? And even if it were to have it’s day in court, who’s going to deliver the bill?

The ONLY way reparations would ever occur is if black Americans were to occupy positions of power in that country to a degree equivalent to the whites who currently occupy them. Presuming that degree of power, why pay reparations at all? The whole American res publica would be Black Americans to do with as they see fit. And if black america were to have that degree of power, what, exactly would they be able to extract from white america, presuming that whote people would thus be in a position analogous to blacks’ now? Certainly not 3 trillion dollars. 😀

(Of course, with that degree of power, black america would be as much of nest of squabbling factions as white america, but that’s another story).

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:04:46 Thaddeus

This still does not take away from anything I have said.

J, so far you’ve said nothing other than some people work and hope for reparations.

My question to you is simple and unitary: HOW is it going to happen under any conceivable circumstance, no matter how remote?

Regarding that, you’ve said precious little.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:51:54 J

Thad,

If only you had the ability to reason and debate.

Again I will reiterate (third time now)

“The point remains that there are a variety people across the world fighting reparations. Its only in your racist imaginings THA[D]/T these people are smoking weed and listening to too much Bob Marley records”

So the fact of the matter is you are wrong to say those who discuss the idea of reparation etc are just the smoking weed and listening to too much Bob Marley records/music etc types – when obviously this is not the case.

I know this may be hard for you to see or accept, but if you thought more carefully how you posted, you would not find yourself in such contradictions

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:55:52 Thaddeus

J, again I reiterate (for the third time now):

I know people are fighting for this. What I would like you to show me is any coherent vision of how reparations could possibly be enacted.

You recognize that saying “people are fighting for this” is not the same thing as showing how ANY of said people expect to achieve it?

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:57:02 J

Thad,

Do you not understand this was never the topic under discussion the validity of reparations but your racist stereotyping an/or racial insult is??

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 13:57:22 Thaddeus

It seems to me, J, that other than offering up rhetoric “Reparations!” you know of no coherent plan of how they might actually come about.

Am I wrong? Show me a plan. How is this going to happen?

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 14:01:50 J

You are beginning to sound like a troll here.

Since you have not been able to refute my contention of racist stereotyping.

So what do you do?

Leave that issue behind, raise a different subject matter within the same topic under discussion, and then wonder why I do not engage with you.

Oh dear – shakes his head

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 14:38:49 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

So you are a lecturer at a university. How quaint. Abagond posses these questions to us, and you join us spreading undercover hatred for a cause that you know is justified.

It is a brand new day in the world. Look around, everything is changing.

Everyone here is looking for answers or solutions.

Who is paying you to spread doubt and chaos among us.

I see your thinking as a big part of the problem.

My God man, how many young minds have you destroyed in classrooms or lecture halls.

You must be carrying karma left over from a Nazi German Concentration Camp Officer or maybe even some Portuguese Slave Traders past life.

You may end up being a very dark skinned African drug dealer in your next life, hopefully living in Brazil.

Scarry thought “HuH”!

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 15:17:38 Thaddeus

So you are a lecturer at a university. How quaint. Abagond posses these questions to us, and you join us spreading undercover hatred for a cause that you know is justified.

Hatred? Hardly. I think the reparations demand is unworkable in reality. Show me how it will actually play out and I’ll change my mind. In theory, if I could give 1,000,000 dollars from the U.S. treasury to each black american, I’d do it, if only to see yet another nail stuck in the coffin of American imperialist ambition.

It is a brand new day in the world. Look around, everything is changing.

Regi, every day is a new day and things are constantly changing. That doesn’t mean Raptor Jesus is suddenly gonna come down from Mars and save us all, nor does it mean that you’ve worked out some viable plan to make reparations happen.

Who is paying you to spread doubt and chaos among us.

Raptor Jesus. Take it up with him. He thinks that blogs like this are an incredibly important forum for revolutionary change. He’s giving me a cut of those reparation funds to take on your rhetoric because he’s already scoped you out as a real mover-and-shaker, Regi.

My God man, how many young minds have you destroyed in classrooms or lecture halls.

Every time sloppy-thinking romanticists, religious nutters, homophobes, nativists, “true patriots”, racists and absolutist fanatics of any sort accuse me of “posioning young minds” because I don’t teach their dogmas, a little ball of fire springs briefly to life in my tummy. It really makes my day, Regi! It makes me feel that I’m actually doing something useful in this world instead of just marking time until I die. So thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for that comment. I’ve had a very depressing week so far and I can truly say that your comment is the best thing I’ve heard to date.

But if you want to SEE what my students are learning, you can go here: http://racabionupem.blogspot.com/

Hell, you can even post there and tell the students yourself what you think of me. I’m sure they’ll be thrilled. As long as you’re contributing to debate and not trolling, I won’t censor you. So go ahead and tell them yourself how and why I am destroying their minds! 😀

You must be carrying karma left over from a Nazi German Concentration Camp Officer or maybe even some Portuguese Slave Traders past life.

Regi, my karma can run straight over your dogma any day of the week. 😀 But if the universe is truly making me pay for a past life as a stormtrooper or feitor, why would it put me in a position to be teaching anti-racism to biology students?

You may end up being a very dark skinned African drug dealer in your next life, hopefully living in Brazil.

Why do you associate darkskinned people with drugs? Isn’t this the nut of J’s belief that my comments about reggaeheads and pot are racist? 😀

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 16:13:16 J

With regard to:

“My belief is that I made a stereotype about ANTI-RACISTS”

However, we were having a discussion on reparations, and in the main this is a Black issue predominantly pushed by Black activists from different parts of the world.

I do not know if you are aware that this is one of the ways whether you can tell if a person is racist, especially when they comes across as a ‘liberal’, should make what is known as an ‘unconscious slip’, in your case this has been twice now, so therfore a ‘conscious slip’.

With regard to the issue of Reparations if Abagond does a subject on the matter, I will be be prepared to enter a discussion with you, but this thread is about Japanese American.

Furthermore it will also give you time to read up on Marcus Garvey, since it is clear from the little you say on him here, that you are definitely not conversant with his politics.

I hope this has clarified my position.

LikeLike
on Tue May 25th 2010 at 16:30:15 Thaddeus

However, we were having a discussion on reparations, and in the main this is a Black issue predominantly pushed by Black activists from different parts of the world.

J, I know plenty of white and brown people who favor reparations, particularly in this part of the world. In fact, almost everyone who favors affirmative action does so, at least partially, on the basis of reparations.

Sorry, you’re wrong.

Given your response, I take it that you HAVE no practical answer as to how reparations would be enacted? Given that it is a theme under discussion here, it is quite acceptably on topic.

so nice try at wiggling your way out of this one, J, but no go: you have no pragmatic plan for reparations. It’s simply a rhetorical and dogmatic position with you.

About what I’d expect from a Garvyite. Garvey was always big on crowd-pleasing smoke-and-mirrors rhetoric. Yet another of his many parallels with the fascists.

As for…

Furthermore it will also give you time to read up on Marcus Garvey, since it is clear from the little you say on him here, that you are definitely not conversant with his politics.

Are you SERIOUSLY claiming then that garvey didn’t take credit for fascism, J? 😀

LikeLike
on Wed May 26th 2010 at 20:30:57 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Thadd, you have made it very clear of your great and noble accomplishments in the name of mankinds great advancements. Since you are on this mind trip to continue your personal quest for becoming ” The King of Linguistic Pontification.”

It seems to me as if you somehow have managed to use up all of your abilities to use your imagination. You continue to spew big words and expressions in an attempt to mentally confound people probably in the same fashion that you do during one of your brainwashing college sessions.

If you notice, people who answer your responses spend so much time disecting your sentences deeply camoflaged in your egotistacle jargon, that Japanese American internment and how other people of color groups might find some answers concerning justice becomes completely lost.

The reparation issue can be easily approached with just a little imagination. Every fiduciary settlement does not need to have trillions of dollars thrown at it to solve a past crime or injustice. There is an infinate amount of ways to settle past sins and atrosities.

I think you know this very well. As far as your reference to a Raptor Jesus is concerned. I will let Jesus speak for Jesus on his own terms with you about that.

“But if the universe is truly making me pay for a past life as a stormtrooper or feitor why would it put me in a position to be teaching anti-racism to biology students?

I think “J” was right. You do commit an extraordinary amount of sub-conscious and conscious mistakes. How much guilt from the past are you carrying around anyway ?

Try not to misquote what I actually said.The phrase that I used in my original response was “Nazi German Concentration Camp Officer.” You called yourself a “Stormtrooper” in your response.

Is that what you remember that you were from your illustrious past ? You also used your own sub-conscious response to use the word “fei’ tor” which I made no mention of.

My response used the phrase ” Portuguese Slave Trader.” You used the word “fei’tor”, once again in a sub-conscious attempt to correct my incorrectness at describing what your official capacity was in that particular life time. So, let me see if I understand exactly what you are trying to convey to me and everyone else.

You were a Stormtrooper and not a Nazi German Concentration Camp Officer. In one of your other lives, you were a “Fei’tor” and not a “Portuguese Slave Trader.”

Excuse me for mislabeling 2 of your past life most outstanding career choices. By the way, the translation for “fei’tor” to english is also quite revealing and directly connected to your continuation of constant Freudian slips.

Now, most of us know or have some idea of what a “stormtrooper” was. Why you chose “fei’tor” starts to reveal some unknowns about you and this particular choice of words.

Translation=gerente which means or could imply, manager, acting manager, deputy manager, administrador, administrator, capataz, gaffer, foreman, chefe, boss, leader, principal, head, honcho, head man, controlador, controller, damper, shareholder, superintendente, supervisor, provost.

You chose to describe yourself with this word, which is an astounding attempt for your sub-conscious mind to make absolutely sure that I understood exactly what your occupation was in this particular life.

I could see if you randomly chose words like Soldier or Sailor to replace Nazi Concentration Camp Officer or Portuguese Slave Trader, but your choices were absolutely specific in your choice of “Stormtrooper” and “Fei’tor.”

I appologize for my incorrectness of nouns and pro-nouns usage. The next time I attempt to apply a label to your thoughts, I will make sure that I check with your sub-conscious mind first. After all, It knows far more than you will ever know.

LikeLike
on Wed May 26th 2010 at 22:25:30 Color O'Luv

@ Thad

Been reading the comments. As always enjoy them. Going to check out your classroom link.

I think you’re being targeted a bit unfairly here. I haven’t really seen anyone responed to your question, “can reparations work? and if so, HOW can it be pragmatically enacted?” I mean, its a lofty ideal, but I don’t even know where to begin in answering these questions, nor would I make any attempt at such. I do believe that reparations at first glance seems to be the right thing; however, when you start to examine it (in accordance with your questions above) it becomes quite convoluted. Keywords here are examine and convoluted.

LikeLike
on Wed May 26th 2010 at 23:47:21 J

ColorofLuv,

I did not intend to speak on this subject again, but because it is you I thought I would make this effort

Cannot you see how you fell into the ‘intellectual trap’??

the issue of reparations is something that is enshrined in international law. It is given to countries who have a legal basis for a claim of injustice etc, or when such a claim is made. Usually that case will have to be argued out in a court.

Groups of individuals or a nation can seek reparations.
Just like anyone in the UK has the right to seek ‘legal aid’ within the courts (ie money given to run a court case).

Not every one is going to get it, but that still does NOT prevent any individual within the UK for applying for such a claim. All individuals within the UK have a right to apply.
The attempt to deny anyone from making a claim within the UK, is ultimately an injustice.

And it is exactly the same with reparation

Reparation will be either given or NOT given according to ‘principles of law’.

So whether the issue ‘can reparation works’ become a red herring. Since this is NOT the basis on how reparation is decided by the courts and/or nations??

And for this reason I was reluctant to go into this red herring and it is not relevant to this topic of Japanese American.

I don’t think I can explain it clearer to you than this.
Except what we have here thus far is the attempt to prevent and Black groups and/or nations to make a claim, if they should desire so, which is their right under international law

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 02:02:59 Reginald

Reginald @ Color O’ Luv & “J”

I have read about some of the attempts of certain groups seeking from reparations to freedom of opression from Spartacus to Black Revolutionarys like Huey Newtons “Black Panthers.”

Their way of acheiving true freedom did not work. Ghandi had the answer, and it worked.

It must be done thru peace. The majority of attempts to make real change possible died by the way of the gun.

Ghandi’s concept seemed to have work the best. Thought is all powerful. If all of the people of color really desire any form of justice, I think it can be achieved through thought alone.

I know this sounds impossible to believe. Read about Tibetan Monks. Study about mind over matter. Become a student of thought and become amazed at your results.

If you would like some scientific proof of this truth, Google “Holographic Universe” and “treeincarnation.” Also learn about ” String Theory.”

Everything in the universe has its own frequency.

Allow your mind to unfold. I was amazed to find so many scientist views are very much one and the same on certain issues that start to explain who and what we really are.

Above all, allow yourself to believe what you learn if your mind agrees to the possibilities of what you are reading.

In other words, if it sounds plausible, it probably is. If it does not sound plausible then reject the information.

However you end up responding to these new scientific concepts resides completely upon your perception.

I must say that what I read seems very hard to refute. You be the judge.

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 03:16:48 Thaddeus

Hi, Regi!

Since you are on this mind trip to continue your personal quest for becoming ” The King of Linguistic Pontification.”

Sorry, friend. Anyone who can right a sentence like that with a straight face has no call to criticize yours truly as pompous.

Now, let’s see. Do you bring up anything substantial in your post. Hmmm. [skims down]

Ahn! Here we go!

The reparation issue can be easily approached with just a little imagination.

If that’s the case, why don’t you stretch your imagination a bit and tell us how it could be done? I’m all ears. Really and truly.

As for the rest…. lessee… Ad hominems, ad hominems, tortured metaphors, barroom psychology and linguistic mistakes. Nope. Nothing else to comment on.

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 03:17:11 Thaddeus

^write instead of right. Duh. 😀

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 03:23:33 Thaddeus

the issue of reparations is something that is enshrined in international law. It is given to countries who have a legal basis for a claim of injustice etc, or when such a claim is made. Usually that case will have to be argued out in a court.

J, this is simply wrong. I know of NO case of reparations for inhuman conduct that were mandated in a court of international law.

Please cite a case if you know of one. I do not. Neither the Italians, Germans, Americans nor any other group which has paid reparations did so because an international court told them to: they did it voluntarily.

Now, again, I could be wrong here. There may be cases I don’t know of. So if you’re so sure of this as you claim, why not tell us what these cases were?

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 03:24:57 Thaddeus

I have read about some of the attempts of certain groups seeking from reparations to freedom of opression from Spartacus to Black Revolutionarys like Huey Newtons “Black Panthers.”

Spartacus sought reparations…?

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 08:15:11 J

Thad,

There are number of techniques you use when discussing with people here. Many of them are ‘designed’ as a series of ‘entrapment’ and/or ‘point-scoring’.

I allude to your point:

” There may be cases I don’t know of. So if you’re so sure of this as you claim, why not tell us what these cases were?”

Fpr instance let us assume that I am not able to cite an instance in international law, due to my ignorance, since I am not an expert on international law. It does not mean that the ‘fact’ does not exist in the ‘objective world’.

So this continual attempt to ask people to provide information, in essence proves very little, except that I may not know, or taht I may not be able to access the information, or even that I no longer can remember.

What it does not prove that an argument is essentially wrong.

Be that as it may….

With regard to your comments:

“J, this is simply wrong. I know of NO case of reparations for inhuman conduct that were mandated in a court of international law”…

Please observe here your usual strategy not able to follow a line of reasoning whether deliberately or lack of ability. I mentioned ‘courts’. You made mention of a ‘court of international law’.

Here is an example of a claim made before a US court, pertaining to the Tulsa Riot 1921, by A-A citizens.

“The Tulsa Reparations Coalition (TRC) is sponsored by the Center for Racial Justice, Inc. a 501c3 organization. TRC was organized on April 7, 2001 in response to the Race Riot Report and its sound reparations recommendations. Two years later, little has been done by any government entity (entities that the report said were the only appropriate ones to implement reparations) to address the recommendations of the commission. The State of Oklahoma Legislature has taken some positive half steps. The City of Tulsa has remained silent on the issue, taking no action or stance except to say that they legally cannot make cash reparations payments without being sued”.

http://www.tulsareparations.org/

And here is another instance of reparations outside the US and before a court of law.

“Turkish Cypriots established the Immovable Property Commission (IPC) in 2005 in a move to avoid hundreds of cases brought to the European court by Greek Cypriots who sought compensation from Turkey for their seized properties.

According to Friday’s court decision, the petitioners should first apply to the IPC before coming to the European court”.

http://asbarez.com/78042/european-court-ruling-likely-to-prevent-reparation-cases-in-cyprus/

And again I am also aware that countries can agree between themselves to give reparations voluntarily. I had already mentioned that recently Italy paid Libya.

If you re-read this passage below. You would see that I state this very point, where I say ‘reparations is decided by the courts AND/OR NATIONS’

“So whether the issue ‘can reparation works’ become a red herring. Since this is NOT the basis on how reparation is decided by the courts and/or nations”??

So can we get the topic back to Japanse-Americans maltreatment by US society

Sorry Abagond!!

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 11:40:31 Thaddeus

Fpr instance let us assume that I am not able to cite an instance in international law, due to my ignorance, since I am not an expert on international law.

Fair go. No one here is.

But the question that logically follows, then, is given that you are not an expert, why do you believe that reparations have ever been handed over in a court of international law? Given your ignorance re: international law, why would you tell me (as you did above) “That’s not how it works under international law”?

Also, one would think that given that this issue is of some importance to you, you would have done some research into it.

I am not an expert in international law, but I HAVE read quite a lot about the Nuremburg trials, Eichmann’s trial, Native American treaty law, and several very famous reparations cases. Because of my work on the human trafficking issue, I also have a pretty good workman-like notion of how modern anti-slavery law works on an international level and how the international court in The Hague is set up.

Moreover, I have researched the reparations issue with the people here in Brazil who push it and several of the organizations who push it internationally.

So while I’m not an expert, my knowledge on this point goes far beyond a Wiki education.

So I’m not simply spouting racist nonsense when I tell you that international law, such as it exists, is not geared to take entire nations and races to court and ESPECIALLY isn’t geared to do that for crimes against humanity.

The only case law which exists on that sort of thing is “state versus individual” in nature. This is why Eichmann, Milosevic and Goering all stood trial and not Germany and Serbia.

The only exceptions I have found in which reparations have been paid by a state to a people or a state are either cases where a state has lost a war or cases PRECISELY like the Japanese American case above, where it was done voluntarily.

This is the point of this discussion and the thematic tie-in to this post.

I should note that I didn’t bring up the reparations issue: Poetess, Leigh and Leaveumthinking did.

You jumped in to tell me “That’s not how it works under international law”, J, so you had no problem with this thread until it became apparent that you, in fact, have no idea how international law works on this point.

So please don’t accuse me of derailing the topic simply to protect the fact that you hold to a political position that’s untenable.

Regarding the cases you bring up, people can sue or push for whatever they want. That was never at issue. The question to my mind – which neither you nor anyone here has answered yet – is HOW could something like the Japanese-American reparations occur in the case of black americans?

The Nissei got voluntary reparations almost 50 years later. It hardly cost the U.S. anything at all. I’d be willing to believe in some sort of symbolic reparations of that kind, even up to 20,000 bucks per black american, because it could conceivably serve the State’s interest. As in the case of the Nissei, it allows them to say “We’re sorry. Here’s cash and a monument. Now let’s not talk about this anymore”.

I think we can both agree that this is not an adequate outcome.

As for REAL reparations on the order of labor values stolen, adjusted over time, only two ways can that occur:

1) Destruction of the U.S. in war.

2) Black people effectively take the U.S. over, in which case why would they need reparations?

So, again, J – and I want to make this point PERFECTLY clear so that you don’t lie about how (“Thad hates reparations because he’s a racist”): I hate reparations because I feel that it’s empty dogma that’s distracting anti-racists from practical strategies for change. If you – or any pro-reparations person here – can give us even the SLIGHTEST indication of how they could pragmatically be enacted, I would rethink my position on them.

So far, however, all that’s been said is rhetorical chest-thumping a lá Regi.

Face it, J: this isn’t a case of “Oh, Thad’s such a racist jerk because he hates reparations”, it’s a case of “Thad gets me angry because he disagrees with my dogma.”

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 11:54:46 J

Sorry Thad, I am not going to answer. I only came back to respond to show ColorofLuv how he has caught himself in an ‘intellectual trap’.

If he wishes to stay in that trap, after what has been highlighted then that is entirely his choice.

What I would say, if you have issues with reparations then the best place I suggest is to follow the link I sent and put it to various Black people across the world who are fighting reparations stating your claim, why they should
NOT be doing so when it is within their the legal right
to do so.

Not only will their response and expertise be far greater than mine, butt hese are the best people and not some other person in cyberspace to address your concerns too.

Once again back to the topic of Japanese American.

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 20:17:44 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

As a matter of fact, I was laughing so hard, I actually broke the armrest on my chair when I wrote “King of Linguistic Pontification.” I had a feeling you would react exactly the way you did, so I preceeded to let you have it. Thanks for a great laugh. I gave my answer of how to approach any reparation in my last response.

I am more than done with this. It was truly a fun time. Thanks again.

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 20:45:34 Thaddeus

Thanks for a great laugh.

Must be nice to be so easily amused that you can laugh at someone pointing out that your writing style is tortuous.

I suppose that it’s good for the soul, however.

I gave my answer of how to approach any reparation in my last response.

Yes, you did: note, however, I said “reasonably effective”. As far as I can figure, given your response, we’re all supposed to wish reparations into existence by concentration on good vibes and happy thoughts.

Like I indicated in my original response, Regi, this is where the pot comes in.

LikeLike
on Thu May 27th 2010 at 20:51:16 Thaddeus

I only came back to respond to show ColorofLuv how he has caught himself in an ‘intellectual trap’.

Translation: “I haven’t a clue as to how reparations could ever conceivably come about either, but I’m sure that if you ask the people who are fighting for it, they will tell you. Don’t try to trap me by getting me to admit that I haven’t the faintest idea as to how international law works on this point, even though I claimed that I did in my original post.”

Problem: I HAVE talked to many people fighting for reparations and all of them to date haven’t given me any more logical or practical response than you.

As near as I can figure, reparationists figure that someday, someone is going to violate every precedent in human history to date and give black people reparations simply because they deserve it.

As I said in the beginning, this isn’t a pragmatic plan for more justice in the world: it’s wishful thinking at best (Regi’s plan), stoned thinking at worst.

LikeLike
on Fri May 28th 2010 at 14:09:44 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Lighten up.
I stopped slinging mud.
Take a break.
Why are you so amped up ?

Did you bother to read “Holographic Universe” or “treeincarnation” ?

LikeLike
on Fri May 28th 2010 at 14:16:19 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Once again, thank you for your critique concerning my writing skills.

By the way. I don’t smoke pot or use any mind altering drugs.

You sure talk about drugs a lot.

Whats up with that ?

LikeLike
on Sat May 29th 2010 at 15:49:45 Thaddeus

Regi:
Did you bother to read “Holographic Universe” or “treeincarnation” ?

I read Neal Stephonson’s “Anathema”, which is a better and more scientifically explicit (although still completely pop) version of the same ideas.

Let’s put it this way, Regi: even in a nested set of multiple universes, you STILL can’t simply wish change into being with good vibes: you need to get your hands dirty and it’s a lot of hard work.

By the way. I don’t smoke pot or use any mind altering drugs.

Why not? If you truly believe the “positive thought creates positive change” crap, nothing gives you better or more positive thoughts than a nice hit of pot. That is why people smoke it, after all, Regi.

LikeLike
on Sun May 30th 2010 at 05:26:59 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

It is a mythical sci-fi novel written by Neal Stephonson. How is it scientifically explicit ?

You are not making any sense.

This is going nowhere. I will no longer engage this nonsense.

It has nothing to do with Abagonds info about Japanese American internment.

Communication is now terminated.

LikeLike
on Sun May 30th 2010 at 15:21:44 Thaddeus

It is a mythical sci-fi novel written by Neal Stephonson. How is it scientifically explicit ?

You don’t read much REAL science-fiction, do you? 😀

For starters, science-fiction isn’t mythical and Star Wars isn’t science-fiction. Neither is Star Trek for the most part (though they do occasionally slip in a real SF episode from time to time).

Science Fiction is a story which takes the universe as we know it and makes one theoretically plausible, scientifically-based change of its physical rules. The plot of the story, in REAL science fiction, must hinge on that change.

Star Wars blows this definition by a wide mile. SW is really juvenile adventure, wrapped up in the trappings of 1930s-style science fiction.

Anathema is an immense and carefully crafted work which dialogues with bleeding edge physics and philosophy while it tells a typical SF adventure story. The story’s resolution is dependent upon multiple universe theory and dimensionally transcendent consciousness theory.

As I said, it’s a better, more enjoyable and even deeper discussion of fundamentally the same material which is presented in “holographic universe”. With better science behind it, I might add.

If you look at Anathem’s Wiki page, here’s what you’ll find regarding the book’s base:

Large portions of the book involve detailed discussions of mathematics, physics, and philosophy. Most of these discussions use fictional Arbran terminology, but treat ideas from actual science and philosophy. Stephenson acknowledges the work of author Julian Barbour as the source for much of this material.

A major theme of the novel is the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, which accounts for the various “worldtracks” and “narratives” explored by Fraa Orolo and manipulated by Fraa Jad. Another major theme is the recurring philosophical debate between characters espousing mathematical Platonic realism (in the novel called “Halikaarnians”) and characters espousing mathematical formalism (in the novel called “Procians”).

Stephenson cites the work of Roger Penrose as a major influence on the novel. Specific ideas from Penrose’s work include: the idea that the human mind operates in certain fundamental ways as a quantum computer, espoused in Penrose’s The Emperor’s New Mind; Platonic realism as a philosophical basis for works of fiction, as in stories from Penrose’s The Road to Reality; and the theory of aperiodic tilings, which appear in the Teglon puzzle in the novel. Stephenson also cites as an influence the work of Kurt Gödel, whom the character Durand mentions by name in the novel.

Much of the Geometers’ technology seen in the novel reflects existing scientific concepts. The alien ship moves by means of nuclear pulse propulsion, a technique developed by ARPA.

As an appendix to the novel, Stephenson includes three “Calca”, discussions among the avout of purely philosophical or mathematical content. The first is a discussion of a cake cutting procedure corresponding to the geometric problem of “doubling the square” presented in Plato’s Meno. The second presents configuration spaces (in the novel called “Hemn spaces”) as a way of representing three-dimensional motion. The third discusses a “complex” Platonic realism, in which several realms of Platonic ideal forms (in the novel called the “Hylaean Theoric Worlds”) exist independently of the physical world (in the novel called the “Arbran Causal Domain”). The mathematical structure of a directed acyclic graph is used to describe the way in which the various realms can influence one other, and even the physical world can function as part of the realm of ideal forms for some worlds “downstream” in the graph.

As for this not pertaining to Japanese-Americans in concentration camps, I agree. But then again, it was you you brought the topic up, twice, and told me to look into it.

LikeLike
on Sun May 30th 2010 at 18:05:16 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Ok, your information is accepted as relative to the subject. However, we should probably find a better place to discuss this subject. Is there a place that you can suggest we discuss our combined interest in this subject matter at ? I don’t want to take up Abagond’s time and space on her site discussing what we both know is getting ready to get extremely deep and complicated.

Do you agree ?

LikeLike
on Mon May 31st 2010 at 01:57:09 Thaddeus

Hey, give him a suggestion. Maybe he’ll write a post about it.

LikeLike
on Mon May 31st 2010 at 15:39:22 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Good idea. “Each one teach one.”

LikeLike
on Mon May 31st 2010 at 17:55:49 Reginald

Reginald @ Abagond

Hello Abagond. Recently while responding to your “Japanese American internment” subject, Thaddeus and I started to exchange ideas about how it would be possible for POC around the world to access reparation agreements in different countries. Actually it got very interesting listening to everyones responses. I presented an idea, it centers around our thinking abilities as humans, or something to that affect. There was an experiment done in Paris in 1982, by a Dr. Pribram and Dr. Aspect. The results lead to an astounding conclusion. As it turns out Dr. Pribram proved that we are actually a second level hologram. The other conclusion that was arrived at, was that we consist of a far more smaller level of physiological measurement described as a photon. Which breaks down to be a frequency. I found this extremely interesting since my studies in frequencies have lead me to some incredible conclusions during my research. Is it possible that we are thinking totally wrong about our existence on this planet ? The last conclusion that I arrived at was this. If everything in the universe has a frequency from the universe all the way down to a grain of sand (Steven Hawkin), and up to thinking which is also a particular photon and beyond, how can we use this new form of powerful knowledge to collectively express many of the wrongs that we see and experience every day ? According to many scientists comprehensive observations, our thoughts are very influential in reference to our lives, and appear to be very powerful when expressed correctly. My question is, are our thoughts even more powerful than we can even imagine ? If you word search “Holographic Universe.” much of what I am refering to will be observed. Thanks for this consideration about this subject matter.

LikeLike
on Mon May 31st 2010 at 18:06:01 Reginald

Reginald @ Thadd

Thank you, for your suggestion. Hopefully, Abagond will consider posting it.

LikeLike
on Mon May 31st 2010 at 18:15:18 peanut

“the Japanese American internment (1942-1945) the American military, with the help of the Census Bureau, sent 110,000 Japanese Americans to live in prison camps during the Second World War.”

yeah…the information in the census is confidential my azz

LikeLike
on Mon May 31st 2010 at 18:26:31 peanut

@ wrissa

farewell to manzanar was a good book from what i remember. it is actually the only book i remember reading in school that said anything about the Japanese internment. All i remember was in the book they served them hot rice with fruit on top of it or something odd like that.

other than that, i agree, there wasn’t much talk about it at all. in fact most of the time you learn more about the european theatre and the nazis than you do about the south pacific theatre, which doesn’t make sense. I had several relatives (grandpas/ great uncs) who served in WWII and both South pacific and the european theatre were brutal and horrific. Yet, we seem to only focus on certain things.

LikeLike
on Fri Jun 4th 2010 at 16:30:00 Andrew

Abagond, I must correct you on this comment,

“But while whites could see Italian and German Americans, fellow whites, as individuals and know that few of them were a threat – even with German U-boats right off the east coast – their racism did not allow them to see Japanese Americans that way.”

The fact is that about half of those interned by the U.S. government during WWII were white (Mostly Italian-Americans and German-Americans). In Undue Process: The Untold Story of America’s German Alien Internees , Arnold Krammer, professor of history at Texas A&M University, describes the extensive wartime policy of interning Europeans – a policy that has disappeared from history books and that gives the lie to the orthodox view that Japanese relocation was a race-based policy.

The total number of enemy aliens interned by the Roosevelt Administration was 31,275. This included 10,905 Germans, 16,849 Japanese, and 3,278 Italians. The rest consisted of other Europeans from enemy nations, with whites constituting 46 percent of the total.

Another forgotten point about Japanese internment was the open disloyalty of many Japanese-Americans during the war. Over three-fourths of Japanese-Americans held dual Japanese citizenship, which indicated a less-than-total attachment to America. Once the war began, unlike German and Italian-Americans, many Japanese-Americans were openly hostile. Needless to say, no white internees have received money, an apology or a monument and their sufferings have been erased from history.

LikeLike
on Sat Jun 5th 2010 at 06:41:06 abagond

Andrew:

I do not know where you get your numbers here and elsewhere in your other comments.

1. German and Italian Americans were interned, but nowhere on the same scale as the Japanese. Unless you can back up your numbers, I have to regard them as wishful thinking because they go against everything I have read.

2. The whites who were interned received due process of law: there were hearings where the government had to present reasonable grounds for interning these people. No doubt there were injustices but it was not racist.

3. ALL OF THE JAPANESE AMERICANS IN CALIFORNIA were interned. The only possible grounds for that is race. There was no due process of law because the government had NO REASONABLE GROUNDS for its actions and knew it. It flat-out broke the constitution.

4. It is true that a third were Japanese citizens, but since foreign born Asians were not allowed to become American citizens in those days it proved little about their loyalties one way or the other. And in any case, not being a citizen is NOT A CRIME. NOR IS BEING JAPANESE.

LikeLike
on Sun Jun 6th 2010 at 23:04:48 Thaddeus

@Andrew
Over three-fourths of Japanese-Americans held dual Japanese citizenship, which indicated a less-than-total attachment to America.

Why does dual citizenship indicate less than total loyalty?

Btw, German and Italian AMERICANS weren’t interned, dual citizenship or no.

LikeLike
on Sun Jun 6th 2010 at 23:44:05 Herneith

Needless to say, no white internees have received money, an apology or a monument and their sufferings have been erased from history.

This is what really irks you isn’t it? That these white folk didn’t receive recompense.

LikeLike
on Tue Jun 22nd 2010 at 07:17:05 Alan B'Stard M P

calling them ” racist ” is a bit strong. They were at war for God’s sake, and this sort of thing is a tragedy of war, be the internment right or wrong

LikeLike
on Wed Feb 20th 2013 at 17:54:15 Merenwen Anwamanë

@Alan B

oh please. “they were at war” is such a pathetic excuse for all the effort put in all the racist propaganda campaigns from both sides, so there was a blatant amount of racism involved. you can still find the remnants in all those restaurants/bars/etc in japan with the “no gaijin” signs on the doors and whatnot. regardless of the situation now, these were created specially for americans. what i have noticed specifically about white americans now though, is that they seem to have developped this crazy respect and worship of the japanese culture all of a sudden which makes me wonder if it’s because they have so much in common in terms of psychology and reasoning. as in they are both natually insane.

LikeLike
on Wed Feb 20th 2013 at 18:50:26 jefe

@Abagond

There was no due process of law because the government had NO REASONABLE GROUNDS for its actions and knew it. It flat-out broke the constitution.

It may appear to have broken the constitution, but the Supreme Court ruled in Korematsu v. United States (1944) that is was indeed constitutional, and the decision has never explicitly been overturned. It was not until 2011 that the Department of Justice issued a notice that the case may not used as a precedent to justify internment on a racial basis. Nevertheless, the original decision was never overturned.

LikeLike
on Wed Feb 20th 2013 at 19:05:52 jefe

@Merenwen Anwamanë

I believe the post was about Americans who were interned in the USA during WWII. The majority were full-fledged US citizens who knew no other country, were baseball fans, sent their kids to play in the Little Leagues and to be boy scouts. Some children with as little as 1/4 Japanese ancestry were also interned.

IT is misleading to compare this to the “No gaijin” signs found in Japan or to “Japan fever” expressed by some white Americans. The former does have racist elements, but is generally directed at Non-citizens. A better example would be something like “No Ainu allowed” or “No Okinawans allowed” and then rounding them all up and putting them in concentration camps.

I have read about a white guy born in the USA who married a Japanese and then obtained japanese citizenship. He challenged the no gaijin rules and even brought several establishments to court under the premise that he is actually a Japanese citizen.
Now, if there were several hundred thousand of them in their 2nd and 3rd generations and the government rounded them up and interned them, along with their multiracial offspring, that would be another matter.

LikeLike
on Thu Feb 21st 2013 at 00:52:00 Merenwen Anwamanë

i wasn’t necessarily replying to this post, hence the clearly highlighted “@so-and-so”, and that person was implying that there was no racism involved during the war or that it can be “excused” since they were at war with each other. it’s not like i went completely off-topic anyways. those crimes commited against japanese americans were based on prejudice were they not? regardless of how oblivious you want to remain about it, racism was very much intended during the war. twist it however you like, the proof speaks for itself.

LikeLike
on Thu Feb 21st 2013 at 03:24:37 King of trouble

@ Jefe are you talking about Debito Arudou?
@ Andrew: On the interment of Italian and Germans you would be thinking mabe prisoners of war. I have to find the rate of interment and how long but the US was active in even South American countries. There were a quite a few of the Americans but you most like might be talking about them being American Italian, Germans, and Japanese who where shipped back to the country of heritage.
found here:
http://www.archives.gov/research/immigration/enemy-aliens-overview.html
I did a paper on this in college but I can barely remember it. The States have a long history of ganging up on ethnic groups.

LikeLike
on Thu Feb 21st 2013 at 17:06:23 jefe

@Kot
Yep, I think that is who I am thinking of.

LikeLike
on Tue Nov 5th 2013 at 11:41:34 jefe

Found a nice analysis about how Hollywood depicted the Japanese American Internment experience
http://digitalcommons.law.umaryland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1662&context=fac_pubs

LikeLike
on Tue Nov 5th 2013 at 14:23:21 B. R.

Glad it mentioned “From H e l l to Eternity”, and, with the faults it mentioned, it still called it progressive, made 15 years after the war

this was an impressionable film for me to see as a kid , and definitly sent the message that it was wrong, I dont agree with the total analysis..if it knocked the poweful message home to me as a kid, to know that was wrong, it did its job

I mean, world war two had 42 million deaths, untold numbers of refugees, millions of peoples stories lost, ask Lithuanians, who colaborated with the Germans about their families being displaced after the war…

this movie hit home the Japanese Internment was wrong, and definitly addressed white racism against Asians…I certainly felt that when I saw it

Absolutly there needs to be a movie about it made by Japanese Americans to get the full dimension and truth

LikeLike
on Wed Mar 26th 2014 at 17:36:50 jefe

I think that they should reopen the abandoned internment camps as tourist attractions. It would be an economic boon to the desolate areas that they were located in and would help Americans learn more about their past.

LikeLike
on Fri May 30th 2014 at 03:45:59 Legion

^ Yes, give them a good dusting off. Scalia says they’ll be used again.

http://www.salon.com/2014/02/04/antonin_scalia_says_japanese_internment_could_happen_again/

LikeLike
on Fri May 30th 2014 at 05:47:13 jefe

What are the scenarios now possible that will rid persons of their right to habeus corpus?

LikeLike
on Sun Jun 29th 2014 at 03:00:43 jefe

^Kiwi,

Yeah, I learned way back when I was in university before the reparations committee even began that they applied the one-drop rule to Japanese-American internment. They locked up babies in prison for having a small fraction of Japanese “blood”.

The 1940s was not that long ago. Those people are still alive.

LikeLike
on Sun Oct 18th 2015 at 21:20:09 TeddyBearDaddy

I don’t know where you get the info from. But it’s hard for me to believe the same FBI that wanted Martin Luther King JR. to commit suicide via a letter sent to him and his family would even acknowledge anything innocent or positive concerning the Japanese Americans. It’s not in their best intentions period.

LikeLike
on Sun Oct 18th 2015 at 21:22:55 TeddyBearDaddy

This is concerning the FBI in that timeline…..

LikeLike
on Mon Oct 19th 2015 at 04:03:04 abagond

@ TeddyBearDaddy

“I don’t know where you get the info from. But it’s hard for me to believe the same FBI that wanted Martin Luther King JR. to commit suicide via a letter sent to him and his family would even acknowledge anything innocent or positive concerning the Japanese Americans. It’s not in their best intentions period.”

My source is “Yellow” (2002) by Frank Wu (page 100 in the Kindle edition):

“The top officials who ordered the internment, however, were aware that Japanese Americans posed no serious military threat. FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover had already conducted an initial round up of Japanese Americans, German Americans, and Italian Americans whom he believed were especially dangerous; he came to oppose the internment as unnecessary.”

The FBI is part of the White power structure in the US and it certainly does practise racial profiling, even under Black attorney generals. But, presumably, they do have some professional pride in being able to find the bad guys, however defined (Fred Hampton, *cough cough*). Blindly rounding moms and pops and grandmas and Little Jimmys is absurd. Who needs the FBI in that case?

LikeLike
on Sat Feb 18th 2017 at 19:48:42 jefe

Sunday, February 19th marks the 75th anniversary of President FDR’s signing of Executive Order 9066, which paved the way for the removal and imprisonment of nearly 120,000 Japanese Americans and other ethnic Japanese residents in the US.

A special exhibition entitled Instructions to All Persons is being held in the Japanese American National Museum in Los Angeles, including the original signed document by FDR, as well as dramatizations of legalized discrimination in the USA. You have until May 21 to see this exhibition.

http://www.janm.org/exhibits/instructions-to-all/

LikeLike
on Mon Feb 20th 2017 at 22:23:17 abagond

Democracy Now marked the 75th anniversary by interviewing George Takei. He remembers that day vividly, the tears on his mother’s face. He compares then to now. Takei lived through the internment camps and yet calls the Trump presidency “an incredible time in American history”.

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFPr__33ri8)

LikeLike
on Tue Feb 21st 2017 at 04:16:44 Solitaire

@ Abagond

Good video. I lost a lot of respect for Earl Warren when I first found out about his pushing for the Japanese American internment (although he apparently repented of his actions and attitudes later in life). I’m glad George Takei mentioned it here.

Warren also belonged to an anti-Asian society called Native Sons of the Golden West that was compared to the KKK, and he was a driving force behind the confiscation of Japanese American land in California.

LikeLike
on Tue Feb 21st 2017 at 08:35:29 jefe

Native Sons of the Golden West

That would make a good topic for a post.

So would Earl Warren, who is famous for land confiscation from Asian Americans and his role in the Japanese American Internment, but also as the Supreme court chief justice presiding over Brown v. Board.

LikeLike
on Tue Feb 21st 2017 at 10:40:12 Solitaire

@ Jefe

“That would make a good topic for a post.”

Or maybe a post not just on the one society, but on all the anti-Asian organizations (and in many cases, specifically anti-Japanese) that existed in California in the first half of the century.

I may have misspoken a little on the Native Sons of the Golden West, as I was writing from memory. I do think I’ve seen them compared to the KKK, but I can’t remember where I read it. I don’t exactly recall if they were involved in actual night-riding and other terroristic activities like the KKK, but some of the other anti-Asian groups in California did indeed do just that.

It is a definite fact, though, that the Native Sons of the Golden West did take a very vocal stance against Asians in California, supported legislation against Asian ownership of land, etc. But the society was also involved in the preservation of historic sites and still exists today, now accepting members of all races. Perhaps they are more like the DAR, also famously racist at the time, now not so much.

“So would Earl Warren, who is famous for land confiscation from Asian Americans and his role in the Japanese American Internment, but also as the Supreme court chief justice presiding over Brown v. Board.”

It’s interesting how many of the people held up as heroes of civil rights and equality turn out to have some area of intense prejudice that rarely gets discussed.

LikeLike
on Fri May 4th 2018 at 20:56:42 What White History Month Would Look Like: 30 lessons - Digital Magazine by RankTribe

[…] Japanese American internment […]

LikeLike
on Tue Jun 26th 2018 at 19:36:42 jefe

The US Supreme Court, in affirming Trump’s Muslim country travel ban, took the opportunity to renounce Korematsu v. USA.

This is the first time that the US government has condemned the Japanese American Internment experience. Up until now, it was still officially constitutional.

BUT….
Why do this during the Muslim travel ban affirmation?

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2017/01/31/trumps-muslim-ban/comment-page-1/#comment-401174

LikeLike
on Sat Feb 1st 2020 at 16:04:20 deirdre

Hi, ϳust wanted tⲟ mention, I loved this post. It was funny.
Keep on posting!

LikeLike
on Sat Feb 1st 2020 at 19:30:15 abagond

^^^ Note that WordPress flagged this as spam.

LikeLike
on Sun Feb 2nd 2020 at 18:16:54 Dus'khor Dechen

Very interesting. Haters gonna hate. Also, pls send us more non-love, the recent incedent took a little influence, Russia needs more issues with like this to purge away the shame of its slavery and hatred.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50858949

LikeLike