I write in Standard English as clearly as I can but despite that some readers still misunderstand me. So for the serious-minded here are some pointers (click on links to go deeper on a particular point):
- I live in America. Much of what I say might apply only to that country. But going by the comments, it seems a good deal of it applies to the white English-speaking world in general.
- When I say “white people” I do not mean ALL white people. Just Americans mainly and not even all of them – just most of them. I know that whites are individuals but, sad to say, racism makes way too many of them act in certain common ways.
- I believe in the fallen nature of man. Like what St Paul says in the Bible. And because that nature has been there since the beginning it affects every one of every race. Everyone has a common human nature that is part good and part evil.
- Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, as Lord Acton said. Power not only gives you a greater opportunity to do evil, even worse it seriously affects your judgement.
- All men are created equal, as Thomas Jefferson said. White people are not naturally better – or worse – than anyone else. And likewise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being black.
- White people are not uniquely evil. I know that Arab traders sold slaves and that Asian kids are beat up by black kids and all that.
- White people are not the source of all evil. Just most of it in this particular period of history – not because they were born to be more evil but simply because they have most of the power, and power corrupts.
- America is not naturally just. No human society is, despite what some like to think. America was built on racism to excuse the crimes of genocide and slavery. And it still is racist.
- Racism is more than just the Klan and the n-word. Racism means looking down on people because of their race. It is a mindset, a worldview.
- Nearly all White Americans are racist. Not the hating kind but the polite look-down-on-you kind. They tend to be blind to it.
- Blacks are racist too. I know that. Almost everyone in America is. Like it is in the water or something.
- I am racist too. Unfortunately.
- If I call you racist it is meant as friendly advice. In most cases. Racism is a set of ideas, like communism or Scientology, not a character fault.
- Being race conscious is not the same as being racist. Whites in America do not have to think about race, but people of colour do.
- The truth is more important than your feelings.
- As a writer my duty is to present the truth as clearly as I can. If white people like what I write, great. If they do not, I am not going to lose sleep over it.
See also:
- Racism 101 – which goes more into the race stuff
- growing up black
- Uptown Manhattan – which is not part of apple-pie America but has affected how I see things
- What this blog has taught me about white people
AGAIN – so well done.
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I like this post a lot, but what makes me think you wrote it as a reflection on what’s going on here lately? (Mainly Toure and drapto posts). This might not be the case, but I do think we needed such a post here. White people especially (all two or three of us).
All in all, I think #4 is the key point for the problem of racism, because that’s how it all began (arguably, it all began with #3).
I don’t know why (some) white people think you hate them (and when I say “them” I mean on both white people as a whole and them (posters) as individuals). I never got the same vibe from your posts. It’s not the I am super smart, kind or intelligent, but I do believe some people are over-sensitive.
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With regard to the issue of racism (here read White global supremacy).
Apart from the African centred scholars – and here it shows you that it ‘experienceing/or existence is what is in essence to the problem, unless you have a super-human mind, which is off course not impossible but very rare.
I do not think there has been many groups of scholars. I think of a few books but I am not quite sure if tehy touch the point. Then perhaps again I may have to re-research them
Anyhow after this very long-winded intro he he he
… I don’t think there has been many groups of scholars who have explained
1. Why did Whites go around the world building empires solely on the basis of people of color v whites?
2. Again and still linked to Whites but specifically ‘Caucasoid’, why did the ‘Arabs’ also do something very similar, but this time only specifically related to Blacks in Africa??
3. Even in the Soviet empire what we find also is that at the same time as the rise the Caucasian race predominated and even ethnic groups that in essnece can be classified as ‘Mongoloid’ (if I permitted to use that term here). One thing I should add here is taht I am talking about the end effect because teh Soviet empire was not built in exactly the same way…Maybe its a bad question then, but anyhowsometimes its also good to look at ‘effects’ and tehn work your way backwards. Well in my little world at least he he
Now that I think about it I can think of one White Canadian writer who is discussed this theme but I think it is based on African centred ideas as apart from his own original thinking.
And with regard to point 4 – Does not that allude to Romans Ch3 amongst others??
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To Mira…
I thought there were a lot more posters on here who identify as White. (I’m not talking about the fly by night posers or the militant Storm-“troopers” -lol-, I’m talking about genuinely interested individuals who wish to participate.) I’m thinking there are around 8 active individuals or so???
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@J
You raised some good questions, but all of it can be explained with number 4. I am more interested in origins of racism- how did “they are not Christians” quickly transform into “they are not white”.
All in all, there are enough whites vs whites in history to think non-whites are the only people whites see as their enemies.
However, colonial (white) mind (not individual, but society) does tend to work with the help of racism. Because colonial interests are, in a way, key for this issue, not white genes. But the way I see it, it’s more of big, wealthy nations vs small and poor ones, at least today (and in XX century). Before that it was colonialism.
@ColorOfLuv
Not sure. I thought there are less than 5. You, Thad, No_slappz, Ó Dochartaigh and I. Anyone else? I am sorry if I forgot about someone.
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B.R. – but I thought there were more
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abagond, you wrote:
“All men are created equal, as Thomas Jefferson said. White people are not naturally better – or worse – than anyone else. And likewise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being black.”
Equal? Men are equal only within the construct of the state.
Better or worse? Obviously people have talents and skills that make them Better or Worse than one another.
Sadly, I cannot carry a tune. Bad singing voice. And that is a great disappointment to me. But true, nonetheless.
Meanwhile, it is interesting that you describe differences between people using the terms “better” and “worse”, and then, when shifting to blacks, you announce there is nothing “wrong” with being black.
In other words, rather than acknowledging differences between humans in objective terms, you add a moral and qualitative dimension. That strikes me as a sign of worry, like you are giving yourself a pep talk.
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Oh yes, B.R. Sorry for forgetting!
Mostly white males. While there seem to be more female than male black commenters.
Not that it matters, but it’s interesting to observe.
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Uncle Milton is also white.
@ J:
Yes, mainly the book of Romans.
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With regard:
You raised some good questions, but all of it can be explained with number 4.
I am not quite so sure. Although I do not want to go into a list of Top ten brutalities.
Perhaps its living in the times that make it seem so.
However when you study things like the Opium Wars, Indian famine (1859) it ‘seems’ unprecedented…Maybe its not, maybe its me…
There is talk of power and absolute power but all the technological advances necessary for conquest like maritime technology, gunpowder etc were already present
in the Chinese civilzation.
The talk about power corrupts, absolute power… I am not sure it fits here?? If it does then more of an explanation is
required. As I said apart from African centred scholars, no-one has really looked at this phenomena
As for the origins of racism. there are some that say this actually occurs further back in history with the Aryans spread across teh Indian sub-continent.
So you looking roughly around c. 1500 BC
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J –
Good point about the Chinese and their sailing vessels.
I’m not as studied regarding world history as some, so keep in mind I’m only throwing out an idea. I think it was a sign of the “economic times”.
For example, the Greeks, Phoenicians, Egyptians were also accopmlished mariners. Enough so that trade throughout the Meditteranean by ship was commonplace. Slaves and indentured servants were common place. New lands and resources had not yet been discovered, so the economy existed as its own stable construct. As these civilizations fell and gave rise to other periods in history, it just so happens that England, Spain, Portugal & France (To a certain extent Italy) were looking to expand their wealth & resources. Once those resources were discovered, it was a race to grab the most. (Hmmm, now laborers are needed.) Of course, then you have these “powers” going to war with one another over these resources, etc…
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@ no_slappz
Dont play crazy, you know what he means. Being black doesnt make any human better or worse than the next.
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j, you wrote:
“1. Why did Whites go around the world building empires solely on the basis of people of color v whites?”
You really need to read a survey of World History. Since the earliest days of human existence the white regions of the world have been conquered and reconquered by a changing cast of white conquerers.
Eventually Genghis Khan arrived. Then the Ottoman Empire arose. Then Euopeans developed better exploratory skills and went sailing to new lands, without having any idea what they would find when they arrived. Or what they would find as they explored the new world.
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y, you wrote:
“Dont play crazy, you know what he means. Being black doesnt make any human better or worse than the next.”
He wrote what he wrote, and what he wrote means one thing to you and something else to me. You, obviously, do not read with a critical eye.
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I read everyday. I’m active tho I try to avoid long comment unless I’m at my comp. I just love reading some of the responses here.
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I most definitely read with a critical eye…I just dont intentionally misinterpret what people write to prove some asinine point.
Im pretty sure abagond knows that not everyone has equal ability when it comes to creativity, athleticism ect. He was strictly talking about race, and no race is inherently better or worse than another.
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Yes Colorof Luv, I think you have done a very good overview of what has taken place – even though you are not a historian (neither am I by the way he he he)
I think the question is not so much the wars etc because that is the staple of humanity per se.
Rather its THE WAY those wars are conducted and what ensues thereafter, is what in essence I am trying to get at.
You can talk of Greek, Assyrian, Islamic etc but you do not see that clear cut divison that in essence of White v colour on a global scale.
Moving on slightly and something pertaining to you. And also perhaps related to Ch 6 of Fanon forthcoming.
If you look at English history for instance and document it from its first colonial war which was against other White people in Ireland 12th century and then this same philosophy was then applied to Africa and then slavery and then by extension to America…
Its a question I had ask previously but the commentator chose not to answer it…
What was it about English society that made them project their own ‘internalised hate and/or fears’ on the rest of the world, in a very ‘dramatic’ way??
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With regard to:
“Since the earliest days of human existence the white regions of the world have been conquered and reconquered by a changing cast of white conquerers.
Eventually Genghis Khan arrived. Then the Ottoman Empire arose… and so forth
Ha ha!!
This was not QUITE my point, but what you say here is more or less true.
My point as I said in my last comment to ColorofLov is:
“I think the question is not so much the wars etc because that is the staple of humanity per se.
Rather its THE WAY those wars are conducted and what ensues thereafter, is what in essence I am trying to get at.
You can talk of Greek, Assyrian, Islamic [empires] etc but you do not see that clear cut divison that in essence of dividing humans worth to colour of skin viz. White v colour on a global scale”
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Y said:
“I most definitely read with a critical eye…I just dont intentionally misinterpret what people write to prove some asinine point.”
LOL. That is why I put “serious-minded” in the opening paragraph. I know that some people wilfully misread what I write. There is nothing I can do to help them.
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What is the color of water?
The human body is between 55 and 75 percent water.
What is the color of water?
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Duh, I should have known: Derek is a sock puppet for Brooklyn Bryan.
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One question. #10 (on white racism): Not the hating kind but the polite look-down-on-you kind.
Are you saying many racists are indeed polite to the black people? I know people pretend all the time (that’s why I don’t value politeness as something especially great- only if it’s accompanied with being a generally good human being; otherwise, I see it as something ugly and I prefer grumpy good people to nasty polite ones. But I digress)- I know people pretend, but is it possible to look down on someone and be a colour blind racist? I mean, are these people racist without even knowing it, or are racist but pretend they are not?
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Are you saying many racists are indeed polite to the black people?
LOL. If you’d ever spent any time in Brazil – or the American south for that matter – you wouldn’t have to ask that question, Mira.
Ahn, cordiality! The racist’s best friend!
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I’d love to visit both Brazil and America. Off topic, I know, but I just had to write it.
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Also:
Racism is a set of ideas, like communism or Scientology, not a character fault.
The problem is, many people think being a communist or Scientologist IS a character fault.
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All men are created equal
Does this mean all men are the same? Does this mean that all men have the same inclinations and capabilities? And what of women? I didn’t know you were sexist.
“there is nothing wrong with being black”.
Well, obviously. This remark is mind boggling.
Nearly all White Americans are racist.
I would amend the above statement as follows:
All people are racist. We can be trained not to be racist, but that training must by necessity be extreme
Racism is a human trait that manifests itself where ever people of different races interact. It is not something that has to be taught or passed down through generations. Differences between groups of people matter and are readily perceptable. Racism, like greed or lust, can never be eliminated. It’s most harmful effects can only be mitigated.
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Racism comes in all sorts of guises whether it applies to people, academia and in fact all areas of our live. Its just a case if you can see its different nuances at work.
And also whetehr you can split or separate it from a similar component but not always related viz. ‘ethnocentricism’.
Some of those on the Far Right see ‘Communism’ (here read Marx=Jewish) as one of their ideologies in the aim of creating Jewish world supremacy
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RR:
I used “men” in “all men are created equal” because I am quoting Jefferson. I understand it to mean all human beings, which is one of the two main meanings of the word.
Equal does not mean identical. Men and women are very different – much more different than the races are – and yet they are equal by nature even if society is sexist.
I said there was nothing wrong with being black because MANY PEOPLE IN AMERICA ACT LIKE IT IS NOT TRUE. If you have never met them then either you are not black or have lived a charmed life thus far.
I do not believe racism is natural like you say. More here:
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“Are you saying many racists are indeed polite to the black people? I know people pretend all the time (that’s why I don’t value politeness as something especially great- only if it’s accompanied with being a generally good human being; otherwise, I see it as something ugly and I prefer grumpy good people to nasty polite ones. But I digress)”
Abso-freakin-lutely!!!
I had a best friend in 6th grade named Lauren. A beautiful blonde haired blue-eyed All American white girl. She had a crush on a equally handsome, smart, sweet “All- America” black boy named Kendall. He liked her and she liked him. He asked her out, she said NO.
Why? Her stepfather told her not to date black men because her his biological daughter was stabbed(she survived) by her black-ex boyfriend.
Asked “What does that have to do with Kendall, he doesnt come off as violent? Its only because he is black?!”
She then told me “But he isnt racist! His best friend is black!”
I spent the night at their house and he was very nice. He welcomed me, engaged me, was very hospitable.
Despite his kind gesture his stance on black boyfriends didnt sit right with me. At the age of eleven I knew something was wrong with that way of thinking….I still see something wrong with that way of thinking.
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BTW
Im a “grumpy good person” I can come off as aloof/disengaged/standoffish but anyone that knows me knows I would do anything to help a person in need.
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To Derek (et al.)
What is the color of water?
1) A book by James McBride, a man with a Jewish mother and a Black father.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Color_of_Water
2) The color of pure H2O is actually a very light blue although in small quantities the color is not really detectable to the human eye.
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I did a post on that book:
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Abagond,
You are confusing me here. You said that it is wrong to praise Jefferson for being ahead of men of his time and that saying ” it was the time” is just excusing racism, but yet you quote Jefferson, in all his anachronistic glory. What gives with that? I’m not blaming you, but your position seems to be incoherent.
Whether people act like there is something wrong with being black is really beside the point. The remark itself is an indictment. No black person I know thinks that there is something wrong with being black, myself included and I have hardly lived a charmed life. The remark reveals more about you than anything else.
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Abagond,
I commend you for acknowledging that racism is a near-universal human condition and that you have racist tendencies as well.
Whenever people claim “I’m not racist”, I start to hear warning bells.
To me, racism is like body odour. All of us have it to some extent; it’s natural yet not a desirable characteristic; the key is to manage it, try to minimise it and make sure it doesn’t interfere with how you live your life.
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To me, racism is like body odour. All of us have it to some extent; it’s natural yet not a desirable characteristic; the key is to manage it, try to minimise it and make sure it doesn’t interfere with how you live your life.
A good analogy.
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With regard to the comment :
“All of us have it [ie racism] to some extent”
Forgive me but personally I am not quite sure why I feel uncomfortable about what is said here??
One can have ‘racist feelings’ but never act them out.
Its the acting them out which in essence is the problem per se not necessarily ‘having them. Unless you go on to suggest ‘having them’ means that you will act them out’.
Then there is the issue that racism comes out of ‘a group identity’. Indidviduals are not racist because of an ‘individual consciousness’ of existence but rather because they are part of a tribal, ethnic or racial group – if I am permitted to extend it that far to include the
other categories??.
So saying that we are all racist, is what I refer as the ‘clumping togetehr’ which in essence can distort teh reality of what happens and/or actually happened.
What do you think??
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J:
In general I am for black pride and against white pride. Whites are quick to jump on that. The short answer is that given the current power imbalance in America black pride is necessary while white pride is dangerous for the country as a whole. If blacks outnumbered whites by 5 to 1 I would be saying the opposite (I hope).
But the longer, better answer is kind of like what you said: pride in one’s race or nation or religion or class or sports team, blah, blah, blah, is pretty natural and even healthy. Where is crosses the line is when that is used as an excuse to do things that are wrong. Like colonialism, slavery, genocide, discrimination, etc.
From what I can tell those bad things are driven not by a true pride in one’s country or race or whatever but from self-doubt, from a thin, hollow and insecure pride that must “prove” itself by putting down others and shutting up anyone who disagrees. Like bullies at school or trolls on this blog.
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RR said:
” You are confusing me here. You said that it is wrong to praise Jefferson for being ahead of men of his time and that saying ” it was the time” is just excusing racism, but yet you quote Jefferson, in all his anachronistic glory. What gives with that? I’m not blaming you, but your position seems to be incoherent.”
No one is all good or all bad. Jefferson had some good qualities. I am very glad he wrote the Declaration of Independence – but that does not give him a pass to own slaves, etc.
“Whether people act like there is something wrong with being black is really beside the point. The remark itself is an indictment. No black person I know thinks that there is something wrong with being black, myself included and I have hardly lived a charmed life. The remark reveals more about you than anything else.”
I am not sure what you are saying. It sounds like you taking what I said and turning it on its head, just like No Slappz did.
I said there is nothing wrong with being black and now you are making it seem like I do in fact think there is something wrong – because why else bring it up? If you assume the country is not racist, right, it would seem odd to have to point that out. Maybe you and No Slappz think you live in such a country. I do not, so I feel I have to point it out.
In fact, now that I think about it, I should have made it point #1 because it is the very thing that people who misunderstand me do not seem to believe, not deep down (even if at the level of words they agree with that statement).
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Thanks Abagond, I understand fully.
As for Eurasian Sensation reading his/her other comments. I think (well I hope I do ha ha ha ) what she is trying to convey, but the way it is worded just gave me cause to think.
Notwithstanding that what s/he had to say may have been typed out very quickly and the thoughts in his/her mind ‘of what she was trying to say’ did not quite translate itself on this page, if you follow.
Following on from what you say, I would like to say this is my position, and here I am conflating various things. So its the overall point I hope you get.
In the world as it is constituted it is necessary to have ‘pride in the group’ etc.
However, I have observed individuals and peoples only have all pride in themselves if they are essentially ‘insecure’. However, to get to this stage I think you have to attain a very high spiritual level. Its almost impossible for individuals to do it, let alone whole groups.
Moving it very slightly, I think ‘Mother Nature’ has made humans to ‘fear/hate’ the ‘unknown’.
This ‘unknown’ (or ‘other’) can refer to people, objects things, ideas etc.
What Mother Nature has done is to imbue us with a ‘survival tool’, viz. anything which is ‘familiar/known’ cannot harm you, but that which is ‘unfamilair’ may in fact kill you. My mind for some unknown reason goes to children being afraid of the dark.
And I suspect this aversion to the ‘unknown, or other people and/or groups is where the idea of racism may come from and in this respect we all have it.
However, and this brings me back to my point. Though we all have this ‘fear’ of the other (which the opposite side of the coin would be ‘love’ for what we know including ourself).Different groups etc have behaved in different ways with regard to how that ‘trait’ is manifested.
I hope this makes even a little bit of sense he he
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@Eurasian Sensation
To me, racism is like body odour. All of us have it to some extent; it’s natural yet not a desirable characteristic; the key is to manage it, try to minimise it and make sure it doesn’t interfere with how you live your life.
Yes, this is a good analogy. To take it one step further, I’d say many people today try to cover up the smell with cheap deodorants instead of washing themselves and keeping themselves as clean as possible.
@J
Eurasian Sensation is a he.
@Abagond
In general I am for black pride and against white pride. Whites are quick to jump on that.
*jump* 😀
I understand what you’re saying. To be honest, I am not sure how white pride can work without becoming violent, racist and ugly. It’s not a bad thing. On the other hand, I understand black pride (and general minority pride). The word “pride” is what bothers me here. I think I wrote about it elsewhere. I don’t think pride is the right term to describe it. Then again, maybe I’m misunderstanding the word.
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@ J: I just checked the contents of my boxers, and I’m still a he 😉
My analogy was just meant to be a bit of cleverness on my part and clearly is not going to cover all the subtleties of “racism” vs. “racist thoughts”.
But when you talk of “One can have ‘racist feelings’ but never act them out,” that’s what I meant about managing something and not letting it interfere with your life.
Quite honestly, I have noticed myself having prejudicial thoughts about pretty much every race, despite also having very good friends among every race. I have simultaneously been very attracted to a particular black girl, yet found myself making assumptions about her that could possibly be considered racist.
So I think the key thing is awareness of how “my perception” differs from “reality”. I find myself liking certain ethnic groups a bit more or less than others, but I don’t actually think that any of them are intrinsically better or worse.
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In general I am for black pride and against white pride. Whites are quick to jump on that. The short answer is that given the current power imbalance in America black pride is necessary while white pride is dangerous for the country as a whole. If blacks outnumbered whites by 5 to 1 I would be saying the opposite (I hope).
But the longer, better answer is kind of like what you said: pride in one’s race or nation or religion or class or sports team, blah, blah, blah, is pretty natural and even healthy. Where is crosses the line is when that is used as an excuse to do things that are wrong. Like colonialism, slavery, genocide, discrimination, etc.
From what I can tell those bad things are driven not by a true pride in one’s country or race or whatever but from self-doubt, from a thin, hollow and insecure pride that must “prove” itself by putting down others and shutting up anyone who disagrees. Like bullies at school or trolls on this blog.
This is an interesting paradox.
I can understand where Abagond is coming from here and, if it were only to boil down to white pride OR black pride, I’d probably choose black pride.
My problem is that, the more I learn about race and ethnicity, the more I see “racial pride” as being like religion. While in THEORY it’s empowering, in practice, it’s almost always driven by self-doubt and insecurity. This, in fact, makes it a magnet for insecure and self-doubting people, whatever that handful of “enlightened” proud people believe.
I used to be highly critical of illuminism for the reasons that get pointed out here endlessly (i.e. it’s eurocentric origins, the sexist and racist assumptions that were built into its base, Jefferson was a slave-holder, etc.)
However, the older I get and the more I learn, the more I believe that we have a better shot, as a race, at revamping illumist tennets of equality and justice to really MEAN what they SAY than we do of domesticating racial, ethnic, or national pride and turning it into a force for good.
I mean, seriously: for all it’s warts, illuminism has at least partially delivered the goods. Where has nationalism or racial/ethnic pride done that?
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The word “pride” is what bothers me here. I think I wrote about it elsewhere. I don’t think pride is the right term to describe it. Then again, maybe I’m misunderstanding the word.
That’s because it’s a weasel word, Abagond. It means exactly what you want it to mean in any given context and that is why I distrust it.
“All men are created equal” is a hell of a lot more stable. Sure, we can argue whether or not women can be included there and one could make sophisticated argum,ents about how this or that people aren’t REALLY human. But even in the racist conditions of the U.S. south, those arguments were successfully challenged – and quite rapidly so on a historical scale. The U.S. constitution gets written in 1788, IIRC. Less than 75 years later, the country goes to war over precisely that question. 100 years after that, and jural equality is finally achieved.
If you study the history of interethnic conflicts based on “ethnic pride”, you’ll quickly see that 175 years isn’t that long a stretch, relatively speaking.
How long have the Turks and Serbs been at each others’ throats, Mira?
And that is my final point: you Yanks are so intrigued by belly-button gazing that you often don’t lift your heads up to realiza that you are not alone in this world. For better or for worse, America’s insistence that illuminist principles be the basis of the world order has been one of the few things which has actually probably stopped more massacres than it’s started on this planet. So now you say that one of the few countries which at least TRIES (occasionally) to abide by said rules is going to chuck illuminism out the door in favor of ethnic pride?
All I can say is that the racists of the world will thank the States for that, Abagond. China, in particular, is going to love that policy.
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@Thad
That’s because it’s a weasel word, Abagond.
Didn’t you mean “That’s because it’s a weasel word, Mira?”
It means exactly what you want it to mean in any given context and that is why I distrust it.
True, that’s why I’m interested in finding out what it means in this context.
“All men are created equal” is a hell of a lot more stable. Sure, we can argue whether or not women can be included there
It’s easier in my language. It’s often translated as “all people are created equal”.
and one could make sophisticated argum,ents about how this or that people aren’t REALLY human.
Well, true. Greek democracy guaranteed rights to all the citizens. The problem with this was that citizens were not women, children, slaves and foreigners. Which were majority of the population.
How long have the Turks and Serbs been at each others’ throats, Mira?
Define “been at each others’ throats”. Serbs were under Turks for several centuries. It’s popularly believed it to be 500 years, but it was a bit shorter (around 3 centuries). When you say this to people here (that it wasn’t 5 centuries of Turk domination but three, they attack you for being a traitor of your own people). Even today, Turks are considered enemies. Turk can mean anything, from a genuine Turk to anyone who is Muslim. “Black as a Turk” is sometimes said to describe someone who is “darkish”. Not to be confused as “black as Gypsy” which often means being dirty as well as dark. It has nothing to do with being African. Both Turks and Gypsies are recognized as Caucasian, but it’s generally believed that they “are not like us”.
And that is my final point: you Yanks are so intrigued by belly-button gazing that you often don’t lift your heads up to realiza that you are not alone in this world.
Well, this is true.
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Thad:
What is illuminism? It sounds like a Brazilianism.
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Thad:
If you want, you can do a guest post about Ungrateful Darkies.
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Agreed… Thad needs to clarify. This is probably a term much more widely used in Portuguese than English. From what I gather, it is “clarification based on intellectual thought”. Honestly, I think Thad is going to have to “illuminate” us on this one. lol
Sometimes I find myself inserting portuguese words in english conversations because they “fit” the meaning better. A lot of Portuguese words don’t easily translate.
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Illuminism:
http://www.radicalacademy.com/adiphililluminism.htm
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Ahn, the Enlightenment. Thanks, Herneith. Yes, it was a Brazilianism.
Abagond, are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that I am saying that the fruits of the enlightenment were equally distributed?
I’m wondering how I supposedly am supporting the “ungreatful darkies” theory with my option for enlightenment theory but YOU, with your option for Catholicism, are simply a humble black man following God’s directives?
If one can engage critically with catholicism, why can’t one engage critically with illuminism?
Would you like to riddle me that, Abagond? Or would you perhaps admit that you’re making a bit of a ad hominem attack here?
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Thad:
You do not burn down your neighbour’s house and then brag about how you helped to rebuild it. Or get upset when said neighbour does not kiss your ass. You should thank your fucking stars he did not burn down your fucking house.
I SOOO love (*sarcasm*) how white people say they are so much nicer to blacks than anyone else, than like the Chinese, etc. They overlook ONE SMALL FACT: WHITES had blacks as slaves for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. Not the Chinese. Whatever their faults may be, the Chinese had the good sense not to enslave blacks – or anyone else. As “natural” and “universal” as whites like to think slavery is.
So PLEASE do not tell me how nice white people are and then have the nerve to compare them to the Chinese or anyone else who did blacks little harm.
Where do you learn this stuff!!??
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Thad:
Do not worry about the Ungrateful Darkie post – I got it covered.
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Many white people have a complex for being “nice” (not other way to say it). At least it seems so.
I am not sure what ungrateful darkie is, but I guess it’s the way whites blame blacks for not being grateful for everything they gave to them. Let me see… They kidnapped them from their homeland. They enslaved them. They treated them as sub human. They still think there’s something wrong with them, something inferior.
However, it’s not just blacks. Take ungrateful natives for example. Nice whites colonized them. Killed them. Took their land.
But, as one Spanish man proudly said to me, yes, they did take Natives gold (he didn’t say lives), but they gave them something more important: their language, their religion and their blood.
And then he leaded the room, very angry.
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“Whatever their faults may be, the Chinese had the good sense not to enslave blacks – or anyone else.”
Of course they did, how do you think the great wall was built abagond? Not only that but they traded with Arabs, it has been documented that Chinese people owned African slaves.
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Africans did not build the wall though, obviously.
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O’ Dochartaigh –
Wasn’t there basically a caste system in India too?
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So PLEASE do not tell me how nice white people are and then have the nerve to compare them to the Chinese or anyone else who did blacks little harm.
Wow, were the hell did I ever suggest that white people are nice as compared to the Chinese?
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Yes, here is a great article on that.
http://indian-history.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_caste_system_in_ancient_india
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Come to think of it, there were some black slaves in China but nowhere close to the scale in America.
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And you’re dodging my question, Abagond. Let me put it to you again:
How is it that my saying the Enlightenment brought some decent things to the world – in spite of its shortcomings – is effectuating the “ungrateful darkies” thesis, while your support of Catholicism gets a pass?
Looks to me like two weights and two measures, Abagond.
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Regarding slavery in China, there were a near-infinite number of forms of servitude that are quite translateable as slavery. Now sure, none of this was chattel slavery, but it was quite definitely slavery as the Romans and other pre-modern Meditteranean people practiced it.
It is not now and never has been my contention that China has treated peoples worse than the west. They certainly haven’t treated them and better either, at least in any measureable sense.
However, it’s worth pointing out that if you think the Enlightenment is so worthless in your life, Abagond, that you wouldn’t be allowed to run this log in China today.
That, my friend, is a simple fact. Ask Asiansensation.
So if you enjoy your Pope, in spite of the Church’s long support for racism and slavery, you’ve no call to piss on the Enlightenment.
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To Abagond,
you said, “I SOOO love (*sarcasm*) how white people say they are so much nicer to blacks than anyone else, than like the Chinese, etc.”
Is somebody actually saying this? I might not have understood this.. (or are you just jabbing at Thad?)
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I don’t understand why it’s impossible to say Enlightenment had some good moments, while also being racist. Something like Jefferson. 😀
I mean, is there something about Enlightenment that I don’t know about? There were only a few Enlightenment scholars in my culture, and I think we needed more, as the opposite of romanticism, for example. But it has nothing to do with race.
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ColorOfLuv,
There were some (I presume white) people here who claimed blacks should be grateful because whites were so good to them. Imagine, nobody else would be so good to blacks as whites were, but blacks were ungrateful and disrespectful.
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Mira — thanks for the clarification.
Those “White” people had to purposely derailing. There is no way I could accept that as a legitimate comment. It sounds so absurd, how could anyone say something like that with a straight face???
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Is somebody actually saying this? I might not have understood this.. (or are you just jabbing at Thad?)
Abagond’s apparently having a bad hair day or something.
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Thad:
I admit I overreacted – I was trying to read and answer this thread in bits and pieces at work. A mistake.
I was not bashing the Enlightenment – I was not sure what you meant by illuminism when I wrote my comments. I did not know where your questions about it were coming from.
So I read this not knowing you were trying to push illuminism:
“The U.S. constitution gets written in 1788, IIRC. Less than 75 years later, the country goes to war over precisely that question. 100 years after that, and jural equality is finally achieved.
If you study the history of interethnic conflicts based on “ethnic pride”, you’ll quickly see that 175 years isn’t that long a stretch, relatively speaking.
How long have the Turks and Serbs been at each others’ throats, Mira?”
Tell me when I should stop jumping up and down for joy. Only I am not because I am one of those Ungrateful Darkies.
Then you said something about illuminist principles – whatever they were. In part you said:
“America’s insistence that illuminist principles be the basis of the world order has been one of the few things which has actually probably stopped more massacres than it’s started on this planet.”
Now I was losing it: America is one of the most genocidal countries on record.
Then you ended with:
“All I can say is that the racists of the world will thank the States for that, Abagond. China, in particular, is going to love that policy.”
So this is how I took it, not having time to read your other comments or even this one carefully:
1. America has made amazing progress on race.
2. America has been a force for good, preventing massacres.
3. America is morally better than China.
I mean, you were sounding like Bill O’Reilly (a right-wing talking head) or something.
Has America made amazing progress on race? Yes. But it should not have been enslaving blacks to begin with – or doing the stuff it is STILL doing (like terrible ghetto schools). Thus my comparison with burning down your neighbour’s house. And my comment about Ungrateful Darkies.
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@ Mira:
I am writing a post on darkies (people of colour as seen through the lens of white privilege). It will be out shortly. Natives would count as darkies – your example is just the sort of thing I am thinking of.
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I admit I overreacted – I was trying to read and answer this thread in bits and pieces at work. A mistake.
Eh. It happens to all of us, man.
Tell me when I should stop jumping up and down for joy.
Sigh. Who said anything about joy? Evil isn’t cheerful.
I’ll remind you, however, that half a century ago, things which are normal now couldn’t even been conceived of. It’s one thing to whip up the flag and piss red, white and blue. It’s another to cautiously admit that yes, things have gotten better. Personally, I think enlightenment beliefs have played a big role in making that “better”. You can praise Jeezis if you prefer. Neither of those two positions are particularly “afrocentric”, as J would have it.
Now I was losing it: America is one of the most genocidal countries on record.
Abagond, believe me, I probably know more about the U.S.’ sins than you do, seeing as how I’m a citizen of a country who had its legitimately elected government overthrown by U.S. intervention. I certainly don’t want to lead any chorus of cheers regarding the States. In fact, I have voted with my body and the future of my children AGAINST the U.S. – something which you haven’t done, I notice. Given this, you don’t have to lecture me about American evils.
And still: American illuminist thought has indeed provided inspiration out here in the rest of the world. American ideals, more than realities, true. It is not something I would like to see destroyed. I’d rather see the U.S. live up to its promise than shrug my shoulders and say “well, that was all a mistake” because I don’t see any viable alternative that’s better on the horizon.
Do you, oh supposed ex-communist?
What’s your vision of utopia? Or are you going to put it all in god’s hands?
1. America has made amazing progress on race.
2. America has been a force for good, preventing massacres.
3. America is morally better than China.
Now see, this is what critical race scholars like Kimberlé Crenshaw call “either/or dichotomic thinking”. Gotta be on the side of the angels or the devils, 100%, neh, Abagond? There’s no contradictions in the world, no ambiguities, only black and white. No gray at all.
What “amazing progress”? I said “better than average, given the historical record”. Think I’m wrong? Show me different, don’t build a strawman and burn it by twisting my words. As far as comparing what occurred in the U.S. to what’s gone on in ethnic conflicts elsewhere, the black/white split has not been all that bad. That is hardly a claim for “amazing progress”, Abagond. But show me where I’m wrong. Show me, say, 10 cases of countries or peoples which have done BETTER at working on persistent ethnic divides over the last 200 years. Hell, Abagond, show me three. Anywhere. F@#$, at ANY point in history.
As for America being a force for good and preventing massacres, it has caused them AND prevented them. Again, it’s got a contradictory record. However, that’s more than many empires can say and that’s a simple fact.
Finally, as for America being “morally better”, I made no moral argument whatsoever. I happen to enjoy freedom of speach for purely selfish and cultural reasons – just like you, I might add. Nothing moral about it. And I want MORE of it, not less. If you seriously think that’s a major concern for the Chinese, you have not been paying attention to world history. Does that make the Chinese evil or morally corrupt? Hell no. I’m a relativist, remember. They seem relatively happy with what they’ve got and they’ve certainly shown the world that they can change it if they don’t like it. But I know for a FACT that I would not be happy living in a culture where the State loomed over my every word. And you, sir, have got to be goofy in the head if you think that, as a Chinese citizen and ethnic minority, you could run a blog over there critical about how the way your group has been treated by the majority.
Fact, Abagond. Harsh, but true.
Again, none of this makes the U.S. heaven. But you tell me the next time the FBI bangs on your door, Abagond, looking to haul you in for questions about subversion. For that to happen in the States, you generally need to start looking at causing real revolution, like our friend Assata Shakur and you are hardly doing that.
And after belittling me for supposedly saying “America’s made amazing progress on race”, something which I never said (“relatively good compared to other places” was what I in fact said said), you then go off and say…
Has America made amazing progress on race? Yes.
I mean, wtf?
And then you say…
But it should not have been enslaving blacks to begin with – or doing the stuff it is STILL doing (like terrible ghetto schools).
Well no kidding. But what’s truly amazing is that you don’t realize how AMERICAN and ENLIGHTENMENT that statement is. The Romans didn’t give two flying f#$%s, for instance, about any of that stuff. they cried exactly ZERO tears about salting Carthage. Hell, the lived it up as a major myth in their identity for close to 500 years. And neither did most historical empires give to slashes of piss about the people they enslaved or conquered. they certainly didn’t make “made for T.V. miniseries” about how the rape of China was bad in Imperial Britain. And yet here you have a big portion of the American public which fundamentally agrees with what you’ve just said.
This isn’t a cause for “being grateful”, Abagond. Frankly, I personally could care little if the States were to go f@#$ themselves tomorrow, except for the friends and relatives who’d be hurt by that fact. But I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. For all its evil ways, the States could indeed have done far worse. Saying that doesn’t excuse any of the evil shit the States has done and only someone who was seriously bamboozled about how the world works would believ that it does.
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Thad:
The purpose of my last comment to you was not to tear your words apart and belittle you but to tell you how they struck me at first so you know where I was coming from.
When people tell me about Amazing Racial Progress, also known as Not Like It Used To Be, it is not that I doubt it at the level of fact, it is more WHY are they bringing it up. The way it comes up it seems to function as one of those stock racist arguments, like “Get over it” or “Go back to Africa”. I am so used to hearing it that you might notice I pre-empt it in some of my posts.
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With regard to:
But when you talk of “One can have ‘racist feelings’ but never act them out,” that’s what I meant about managing something and not letting it interfere with your life.
Thanks for the clarification Eurasian Sensation.
Something happened to me with a friend last night, which reminded me of something I had read previously
viz. that when we are ‘racist’ (or any other similar adjectives) its the GROUP per se we view as the ‘problem’, (ie the collective) and NOT just an individual who may be of a particular skin colour etc. This notwithstanding it does also works the other way to
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[…] lists his blog’s principles of race-consciousness, and discusses […]
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Sorry for “comment bombing” every thread I read — lol. This will be the last one. I just wanted to express my gratitude for your viewpoint. The above guide reverberated especially with me. You have a very succinct way of phrasing things — things I have thought or inwardly believed for a long time but could not put into my own words with any coherency. That is all. Will be making your blog a regular read.
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[…] Reading Abagond […]
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I learned from this. Reached the point where I tried to see how many of these points applied to me. Need to keep examining my life to find where racism is lurking that I never suspected.
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[…] you are new here you should read the Comment Policy. You might want to see the Reader’s Guide [Read this! Many criticisms have already been responded to. Many confusions have already been […]
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