Israel (1948- ), also known as “Israel” (in quotes) or the Zionist entity, is a Jewish country founded on Arab land. It covers part of the ancient Jewish homeland which God had promised them. The Arabs, however, have lived there for over a thousand years. Some of the land was bought from the Arabs but some of it was taken by force.
Israel is in Palestine – the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river, south of Syria and Lebanon and north-east of Egypt. Palestine has three parts:
- Israel – in the west along the sea
- West Bank – the highlands in the east, once part of Jordan
- Gaza – a small piece of land in the south-west, once part of Egypt.
Jerusalem is split between Israel and the West Bank.
Israel rules the West Bank by force; it pulled out of Gaza in 2005 but it is back there again fighting.
The Romans kicked the Jews out of Palestine in 135. The Jews started to come back in large numbers in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The British gained control of the region in 1922 after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. They promised half of it to the Jews and half to the Arabs.
Soon after the Second World War, the Arab half became Jordan and the Jewish half became Israel.
The Arabs have tried to drive the Jews into the sea several times. But each war only made Israel stronger, sometimes even bigger.
Israel is not only good on the battlefield, it is also blindly supported by America. More Jews live in America than in Israel.
For every eight Jews that lived in 1930, Hitler killed three, two moved to America, two to Israel and one stayed where he was.
Two things are against Israel: world opinion and children. With Arabs having far more children than Jews, the Jews are slowly becoming outnumbered.
Israel was created by British power and maintained by American power. It faces a very dark future once American power comes to an end, which it will sooner or later. Will India or China or whatever country is the next top power care much for Israel? And what will the numbers be by then – how many Arabs and how many Jews will live in Palestine then?
In this way Israel is like one of the Crusader states that were set up by the West in the same area in the 1100s. This parallel is not lost on the Arabs. The Kingdom of Jerusalem, established in 1099, lasted 88 years. That gives Israel till 2036.
Military rule of the West Bank and Gaza has not worked. Pulling Jews and the military out of Gaza has not worked. Pushing the Arabs out of both by force would set the whole region on fire with war. So what to do?
Israel is building a wall, yes a wall, between itself and the West Bank. The wall, however, takes in choice pieces of the West Bank and goes right across Arab farms. It has not yet reached Jerusalem, which is part Jewish, part Arab but with no nice, clear dividing line between the two.
Israel is widely believed to have the atom bomb. This weakens America’s hand in trying to keep other countries in the region from building their own atom bombs.
See also:
“Israel is widely believed to have the atom bomb.”
By whom?
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By the Arabs and the Iranians at least. It seems that many in America and Britain assume it is true too.
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The Jews are tough. I have so much respect for them.
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..just going through your older stuff…
Though I am disappointed how Beta Israel is treated in general in that country, I would like to travel there one day for my own personal experience.
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And this is a story doing the rounds in one of the UK newspaper today, but it is in fact very old news
http://www.countercurrents.org/cole240510.htm
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This is sick
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many hate israel they try to take their land,coultre and religon. mr. abogand have you ever read john haggie,spell check, book of irans armaggeddon.america will fall hmm…. maybe they are worried about chaina and russia hates america just look at the spy scandel. also venuzula said they plan to make an axis of evil with iran,pakistan and soon china to go agaisnt isreal and america. jews were suppose to be exctinct so many times but somehow surivied.islam is also at war with isreal claming their yhe reak jews and gods choosing ppl. so far their fighting to steal more land from the jews. i say if they read the bible jesus came to unite jews with gentiles so that anybody who accepts god is hes ppl. what do you think of the NWO
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Oooh. I’m just shaking in my boots at the thought if an axis of evil led by Venezuela.
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“Fighting to steal more land from the Jews” is a particularly odd way to put it when the Jews in Israel stole most of the land they live on from the Arabs.
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Israel is a colonial entity!!!
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If you are waiting for America’s power to come to an end, you’ll be waiting a long ,long ,long time.
And if you are waiting for developing countries to finally grow up, you will also be waiting a long, long, long time.
But I doubt very much that you have what it takes to understand, WHY the above statements are true.
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Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
Genesis 32:28
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Israel is an evil nation. It has no right to be there, it does no good to the world. And why does it exist? Because in America, the most powerful country, Jews control the media.
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^ Jews don’t “control” the media. Modern Israel was created for a lot of reasons, but most of them had NOTHING to do with any pro-Jewish Hollywood propaganda way back in the 1940s.
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The demographic Time bomb is a myth
This is the best link on the subject http://www.israpundit.com/archives/36218
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I’m unsure how to feel about the idea of Israel and Classical Zionism altogether. I’m gonna sum it up with a few points (that’ll be spread across a few posts):
1. I am a STRONG supporter of any and all Jews speaking Hebrew as opposed to some diaspora language like Yiddish or Judezmo.
Hebrew, for all its secondary influences, is the most Jewish language as far as i’m concerned. The only reason it became holy as opposed to normal is because for centuries the last traces of it were preserved exclusively in religious texts. Moreover, Hebrew has had sporadic and secular revivals as a non-religious language before Zionism.
Yiddish (for instance), on the other hand, is essentially a dialect of German (as in minor subset of a large language group like Italian or Arabic rather than an accent), which essentially treats the ethnicity as a subset of other groups rather than its own thing. Even convert descendants are Jews ethnically, because all Jewish ancestors were once converts.
I am also in agreement that Jews who do not need to hide the fact from others should have either their first or last name be Hebrew or at least exclusive to Jews like Rappaport. Long story short, if Classical Zionism has only one good quality, it is reviving Hebrew successfully.
2. Palestinian Arabs have been living there for a thousand years, yes. And quite a bit are descendants of Samaritan and Jewish converts rather than Arab invaders, yes. But it is eternally reckless to say a) there are Palestinian Jews (you’re referring to the Old Yishuv, Jews who emigrated before Zionism), b) Jews had a great time in diaspora lands, and it’s only cultish prophecy and colonial envy that pushed them out of their “true homes”- as if the diaspora had zero lasting effects, c) that in an ideal world ALL Israelis would be sent packing, and d) Israelis had their chance, all Jews everywhere don’t deserve to return the place they all have connections to.
I don’t believe all Jews should be in Palestine and Tanakh lands in general, but some should stay in order to protect our sacred things, as well as those seeking asylum for any reason- not to mention a place for convergence of Jews of all sub-ethnicities.
I also am in favor of some sort of confederation for the entire land of Palestine, with Jewish, Palestinian, and Samaritan peoples as catered ethnicities in a tri-national state. Yeah, all illegal settlements should be destroyed (like Pri Or, for instance), and Palestinians get first call in right-of-return, the name is changed back to Palestine or maybe Canaan.
And war criminals like Netanyahu shall be punished, with nothing in the land being named after anybody in any language.
I firmly believe Jews are also entitled to the land to prevent assimilation, extinction, and loss otherwise.
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3. I believe the mistreatment of Russians, Armenians, Samaritans, Palestinians, Greeks, POC refugees, and Jewish POC in Israel is not only immoral and pathetic, but antithetical to what the land was supposed to accomplish. Even phoney and misguided Black “Hebrew Israelites” deserve better respect than they’re getting from Israel’s government.
Saying the idea of Jews returning to Palestine inherently means white Ashkenazi Jewish supremacy or Jewish supremacy in general is essentially demonizing the whole idea of Jews or Ashkenazi Jews at least going back to their place of origin, because diaspora Jews should be content with what ever treatment comes when self-determinism is taken away. And nothing bad except the Holocaust ever happened in the diaspora before Zionism.
I fully acknowledge many of Israel’s founders like Weizman and Herzl were huge racists, but that is an attack ad hominem and cherry-picking ideas from the movement to fix it is reform not dishonesty as long as the core remains. Should Ireland always outlaw abortion because it was founded with that tennant?
4. There actually is DNA evidence proving Jews go back to Palestine. Almost every sect, and even if some sects were originally later converts (as opposed to original converts), they still have the Jewishness approval of pretty much every Rabbi from who is descendant of an earlier convert.
The common belief Judaism is just a religion comes from the fact Christians and Muslims have many ethnicities connected to them, in spite of the fact Judaism can overwrite your previous ethnicity. Moreover, this is not helped by crank writers like Shlomo Zand who prefer to cater to this misperception.
Oh, the Khazar hypothesis was made up to make the European Jews more European than they are at a time when they were seen as Semitic interlopers.
Feel free to look this stuff up, I won’t do it for you.
Still, i believe more Jews in Palestine should be kept to a minimum until all Palestinians return. But the flag and other national symbols should cater to Samaritans, Palestinians, and Jews.
Madonna’s “Jewish Ambassador” status is just disgusting, and while it’s far from the worst thing she’s done, it sets a bad example of how to convert by only doing it for fetishism rather than genuine belief and the fact many prominent Jews support it astounds me.
5. I don’t think light-skinned Jews (yes, not just Ashkenazim, look at Josh Gad, Sean Penn, Jerry Seinfeld, Paula Abdul, Ovadia Yosef, and Neil Sedaka, among others) are completely POC anymore. I am tired of other Jews overstating the survival of the people while ignoring both current threats to Jews, but also other ethnicities. This overparanoia is why abused Orthodox kids and kids of Judaism-related culters don’t seek help. It is no better than “stranger danger”. I get behind actual tyranny survivors and their children like Art Spiegelman and Kobi Shimoni being the way they are, but people like Ezra Koening and Natalie Portman are far from outsiders.
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@Kiwi
Have you sharpened your saber?
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Wait for it…
http://history1900s.about.com/cs/holocaust/p/balfourdeclare.htm
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@v8driver
I am still waiting…
He may be doing his Wikipedia homework in advance.
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Kiwi, my worthy opponent, why hath thou surrendered so readily?
Perhaps on another occasion. I must depart.
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Just something to note, Jews actually have a higher TFR (total fertility rate) then do Arabs, in Israel. In fact, if one counts Israel as a Western country, it has the highest fertility in the West, with a TFR of 2.7 in 2015. So I’m not sure if Jews are going to be outnumbered in Israel proper anytime soon. However, the Arabs in Gaza have a very high TFR, so if a single state solution ends up occurring, Arabs may eventually become the majority. Just something to note, as in Abagond’s post, he states that the Arabs are having far more children than the Jews.
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Edit: Change Sean Penn (who I thought was at least half-Sefardic) to Ralph Bakshi (a Turkish-Israeli Jew) in the list of non-Ashkenazim I made.
Also, regarding Nazi Genocide:
6. I agree the reason it’s synonymous with vile is because white Americans refuse to look at themselves. Ignoring my points about doom I mentioned in other threads, the solution isn’t to deprecate German culture and German people AND English culture and English people; but rather to blame the ideas and organizations and individuals rather than ethnicities and cohorts.
My solution to the inevitable land crisis once European settlers return is simple: drain the North Sea or make it possible for underground living. I am dead serious.
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@Uriel
What “land crisis” are you talking about?
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That when white Europeans who aren’t fit to dissolve into non-European poc societies anywhere (95%) return to Europe to return the non-European land to the respective indigenous inhabitants, there will be less room in Europe for the massive amounts of Europeans.
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@Uriel
That’s an interesting point. Where did you hear it from? I am not criticising it, it is just a very interesting view point that I haven’t heard before.
Whites may eventually get kicked out if they refuse to accept multiculturalism.
Interestingly though, I don’t think whites will ever live in an ‘all-White’ society again.
Europe, just like America, is becoming increasingly diverse. One of Europe’s major cities, London, is already less than 50% white.
I think whites will eventually just fade away (although that won’t happen for a long time). There may be a massive war before that though.
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@Uriel
I don’t think Whites are going to be returning to Europe en mass anytime soon. Whites have been a minority in most of Latin America, and that hasn’t stopped them from still being, economically, the dominant force in most of those countries. Meanwhile, places like Australia, New Zealand, and arguably Canada, are still strongly majority White. I don’t see Whites becoming outnumbered there anytime soon. And if Whites are forced to return to Europe, would Turkish people, whose entire country was founded on land that was taken from Greek Europeans, be expelled back to Central Asia?
@somaliprince
I don’t think people with “white features” will ever “fade away” completely. But if you mean the idea of a “white identity” fading away, then yeah, absolutely. The concept of race, at one point, didn’t exist. Maybe someday in the future it will cease to exist once more. Who knows.
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@Benjamin
Yes, I was thinking in the very long term, since white genes are not dominant they may eventually disappear.
But I agree that it is highly unlikely, I just think that it is more likely to happen than whites fleeing back to Europe and re-establishing a ‘white’ Europe.
Although I have done the mental exercise before.
In 3,000 years, there might be no white people left.
Everyone would be mixed race. That would be interesting.
HIstorians would write about an ancient race that had skin as pale as chalk that inhabited the tip of the Eurasian continent.
They might talk about whites in the same way we talk about Neanderthals now.
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@somaliprince
If everybody eventually becomes “mixed race” then wouldn’t there be no more black people either? I have seen interracial black/white couples with children. In some cases, the children weren’t as dark as their black parent, but weren’t as pale as their white parent. We just call them “black” because of the whole one drop role. In reality, they didn’t look significantly more African than European.
I think when you mix white and black, you get “brown”, not black. But in White America, “brown” might as well be “black”, because it isn’t “white”.
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@Benjamin
Yes, I agree. I am aware it is not a possibility.
But when I was young, I remember thinking: ‘maybe if every person had to marry another person with the opposite genetic traits then after a few hundred years, there would be no more black people or white people, just different shades of brown.’
That would solve a lot of problems.
I remember reading somewhere that people are naturally attracted to people with opposite genetic traits since it leads to healthier offspring.
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@somaliprince
The way things are going now, I would imagine a place like America would eventually become predominately multiracial. The question is then, if everybody is mixed race, would some type of colorism occur? Would people with thin noses persecute those with broader noses, or vice versa? Who knows, maybe not. It would be pretty ridiculous for a biracial child who looks white to identify as a different race than their biracial sibling, who looks black.
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EDIT to my above post: But it does happen.
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@Benjamin, and to a lesser extent Somali Prince
Race’ll always exist. It will just mean less in the future. Maybe white supremacy will die then race, not the other way around.
When I say that whites will return to Europe, I mean justice will advance and gradually whites will leave settler states. After all, whites are leaving Israel, Zimbabwe, and South Africa.
Moreover, I am only referring to lands taken from 1450 onward since that’s the time period where land grabbing has started to affect anyone in any serious capacity.
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@Uriel
Okay. So the Turks, who conquered much of Greek Anatolia after 1450, would of course be expected to return to their ancestral homeland in Central Asia as well, right? And believe it or not, Ashkenazi “European” Jews are not the majority of Jews in Israel. So what about all the Arab Jews? Many of them were violently expelled from their country of origin upon Israel’s founding. I don’t Iraq, Syria, or Egypt, is going to allow those Arab Jews to return to their ancestral homelands.
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@Benjamin
You make a good point. Everyone talks about Israel but no one mentions how Arabs have kicked out their own Jewish people – many Arab states used to have sizeable Jewish populations – and refused to accept Palestinians.
According to the ‘Arab League Decree 1547’ of 1959, Palestinians are actually restricted from being absorbed into neighbouring Arab states in order to ‘preserve the Palestinian entity and Palestinian identity.’
And of course, the Turks occupied much of the Middle East and have completely taken over what is now Greek Anatolia.
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@somaliprince
Yes, exactly. The Turks in Anatolia are an interesting case, because here you have a non-European group of people, conquering a group of Europeans. And, ultimately, committing genocide on them (1913 – 1923 Greek Genocide).
I didn’t know that, about the Palestinians being restricted from being absorbed into neighboring Arab countries. For some reason, I have a feeling that those other Arab States didn’t really care about the “Palestinian Identity”. More likely, they just didn’t want the refugees there. Of course, I’m not holding that against them, most States simply cannot handle the burden of unexpected refugees.
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@ Benjamin
It would be pretty ridiculous for a biracial child who looks white to identify as a different race than their biracial sibling, who looks black.
Actually I don’t think that it is that ridiculous. It happens in some places in this world of ours. You just must look further away of USA and other Western European countries were racial mixing in not yet very advanced.
Look, instead, to Latin American countries and in Brazil especially. There, most people have some degree of mixing but according to outward appearance some are classified as White (mostly European in genetic admixture but not always; the appearance is the main criteria), or Gray (not clearly White nor Black nor Amerindian), or Black (mostly African in genetic admixture but not always; the appearance is the main criteria), or Other (Amerindian, Asians, etc).
In such societies, people with a European appearance (Whites) feel as superior to the rest of the society with a less European appearance… including siblings!
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@munubantu
I knew that in places like Latin America, people who appear more European do feel superior to those who look less European. But I didn’t realize that those feelings could extent to siblings as well. But, then again, I read somewhere that Rashida Jones sometimes identifies as Jewish, and her sister Kidada Jones identifies as Black. For the record, I do understand people identifying as their phenotype. I just find it odd that a light skinned biracial person would be prejudice towards their darker skinned sibling, since they both share some non-European ancestry.
Meh, I guess prejudice (not racism, for the record), is a part of human nature.
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@Benjamin
There’s a common theme on this blog that Europeans are primarily responsible for institutionalising colour-based racism.
i.e. it didn’t exist before.
Al-Andalus, ruled by Moors, was ethnically diverse and did not racially discriminate, nor did the Ancient Greeks, Romans or Egyptians.
When Al-Andalus was reconquered by the Spanish and the colonial age began, that’s when the world became confronted to a new world order where skin colour determined your status in life.
I largely agree with it.
Unfortunately many people on this blog don’t lucidly state this argument (and I wish Abagond would make it clearer) and instead a lot of what they say sounds like:
‘Only whites committed evil, non-whites were spiritually peaceful people before whites came along.’
Obviously, I don’t agree with this.
The Turkic were a nomadic tribe that terrorised many lands before they eventually settled in modern Turkey. The Ottoman Empire, as all other Empires, committed countless atrocities.
As for the Palestinians, I believe the Arabs are using them as a political weapon to hinder the development of Israel.
In other words, they are more interested in making Israel look bad than actually helping out the Palestinians.
I believe a population swap should have occurred, in the same way it occurred between India and Pakistan.
In other words, Jewish people in the Arabic world travel to Israel, Palestinians in Israel travel to Arabic states.
Otherwise, my position is that Africa will one day become the dominant continent and that hopefully it will institute a system where skin-colour is not important.
This could be a model based on citizenship, as the Romans had.
But in order to get there, Africans will probably have to defeat the white hegemony.
This shouldn’t be too difficult as the West is currently on a downward spiral.
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@somaliprince
‘Only whites committed evil, non-whites were spiritually peaceful people before whites came along.’
With regards to the above statement, I am aware that abagond doesn’t believe that. He has stated he doesn’t believe Whites are uniquely evil before. A few of his commentators might believe that they are, but they’re in the minority.
With regards to what you said about the Arab States and Israel, I agree with you. I’m not denying that Israel has committed war crimes, or other injustices, against the Palestinians. But I do believe that many Arab States are indeed using the situation of the Palestinians to further their own anti-Israel agendas. Ditto with the likes of European far left/right. I’ve talked with Pro-Palestinians who were not just “critics of Zionism” but admitted anti-Semites.
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@Benjamin
Many people believe Israel is just a European colonial state.
The majority of the Jewish people I meet are hard working and very pious people.
I believe that historically, they have been too pious. Muslims and Christians have been far more militaristic.
Anti semitism is deeply entrenched in both the Middle East and Europe. The Jewish people do not have many friends to turn to.
If the Jewish people are to survive, they effectively have to respond to fire with fire.
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@somaliprince
I find it funny that people see Israel as a “European colonial state”. One only needs to have basic knowledge of European history to see that Jews were never considered “real Europeans”. Even today, in places like Eastern Europe, Jews are not seen as a religious minority, but as a minority ethnic group. A Russian Jew in Russia is seen as a Jew, not a real Russian. Likewise, a German Jew in Germany, or a French Jew in France, is seen as a Jew, not a real German or Frenchmen.
Jews are in a tricky spot. On one hand, they’re seen by European Nationalists as Semites, not Europeans, and thus they don’t belong in Europe. By contrast, Arabs and other Middle Easterners view them as European, and believe they don’t belong in the Middle East. This is precisely why Jewish people need a land of their own, and until the founding of Israel, they did not have one. While I don’t agree with everything Israel does, they can’t go back to living in European or Middle Eastern societies, it is quite clear they are hated there.
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@Benjamin
I can be a pretty argumentative guy but reading your post, it felt like I was reading something I would write myself, I have nothing more to add.
Everything you wrote is spot on.
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Benjamin
” A few of his commentators might believe that they are, but they’re in the minority.”—–Lurkers maybe, but I have been here a long time and have not even gotten such a vibe from even the most pro- black of commenters.
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@somaliprince
Thank you 🙂
Interestingly enough, I read a graph of worldwide opinions of Israel. It appears that outside of the United States and India, African countries like Nigeria, Kenya, and Uganda have the highest positive perceptions of Israel. Perhaps Israel will stop trying to gain favor with Europe, and move towards strengthening its bonds with those African nations.
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@Sharinair
Yeah, you’re probably right. I think I’m thinking of one or two “drive by posters”, who are more or less lurkers.
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@Benjamin
Yes, people in Africa are usually more receptive to the Jewish cause than people in the Middle East/Europe.
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Wow, an Isreal/Africa alliance? That’s interesting. THAT would start Armageddon.
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@Benjamin
I had a look at the ‘Global opinion survey on Israel’ you mentioned.
I find it interesting how rife antisemitism still is in Spain, moreso than any other European country.
It doesn’t look like Spain has changed a lot from the days of the Spanish Inquisition.
Spain prides itself on being a modern liberal state and is one of the most gender equal countries in the world.
But behind it lies a real veneer of racism.
I think this partially stems from a ‘collective cultural traumatism’.
Many Spaniards view themselves as wholly European and not at all Muslim. They like to conveniently forget the fact that they were under Muslim rule for 800 years.
@Uglyblackjohn
It would indeed.
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@somaliprince
That doesn’t surprise me. Keep in mind, Spain was under the leadership of the semi-fascist Francisco Franco until the early 70’s. Nationalist and state supported Catholicism were the laws of the land. Maybe that contributes to their more anti-Semitic attitudes, though I’m not sure. Supposedly, though, there is some effort to have Sephardic Jews who were expelled from Spain during the Inquisition, to come home to Spain.
“Welcome home – we’ve missed you” is what the King of Spain has recently said to to the Jews who were banished from Spain hundreds of years ago.
Anyways, I agree that the Spanish do indeed like to seem themselves as purely European. I think this is the case throughout Southern Europe. They tend to be rather insecure about the fact that they might not have non-European ancestry. As for the cultural imprint the Moors left on Spain, I’m unsure, as I don’t know enough about Moorish and Spanish culture to compare.
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*wrote this a bit quickly, sorry for the spelling mistakes, grammar mistakes.
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@LoM
How would you resolve the Israeli situation?
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Do most Jews or Arabs want a one state solution, though? I think most Jews want to have a state where Jews are a majority, and plenty of Palestinians don’t want Jews there at all. I suppose another nation could try and force a one state solution on them, but I think that’d just lead to violence.
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@LoM
My solution is pretty straightforward.
By letting the Israeli-Palestinian conflict continue over the last 50-60 years, Israel has done significant damage to its international image.
A far more rapid resolution would have been for the Jewish to conquer the entirety of Israel (including the West Bank, the Gaza strip and Jerusalem) and initiate a population swap between the Jewish people living in Arab states and the Muslims living in Palestine.
Obviously, Israel didn’t have the military strength to do it and I think the British no longer had the resolve to initiate such a plan.
But had that occurred, much of it would have been forgotten by now.
And this Israeli-Palestinian conflict would not continue on forever.
A similar thing happened between India and Pakistan:
Does anyone remember this?
No, it is mostly forgotten about.
The British could have done a similar thing between Israel, Transjordan and other states and much of it would be forgotten about by now.
But instead, Israel continuously finds itself in the media spotlight for all the wrong reasons.
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@ LoM – Well, maybe. But an alliance between the two most put upon people in recent history would be like hitting a reset button. Africa’s natural wealth and Isreal’s (Jews’) history of banking would create a financial and resource rich super power. Africa is said to be under-exploited and if it were able to defend itself and any Africa/Levant/Saudi (I just threw the Saudis in because it looks good on a map) alliance would change the world in ways that the West, Russia and China would have no other choice but to March upon.
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Israel already has a lot invested in Africa. They build malls (for white people) and prisons (for Black people). Two Billion dollars worth of African diamonds get polished through Israel. Israel also has a lot invested in agriculture in Kenya and Tanzania.
Remember the mall attacked in Kenya was built by Israeli investors. That’s why it was hit.
Israel was a strong backer of apartheid in South Africa.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/23/israel-south-africa-nuclear-weapons
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@ MJB – Would things be different if Isreal formed an ALLIANCE with Africa? I understand the mistreatment of newly arrived African Jews in Isreal but if Isreal thought of itself as more African than European and they could get over the religious diferences…
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@Michael Jon Barker
Israel did not have close ties with apartheid South Africa initially. After the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, virtually all African nations cut ties with Israel. A handful, including South Africa, did not. As such, Israel strengthened what remaining ties it had. Of course, I’m not saying that justifies its relationship with South Africa, just why it was that way.
As for its investments in Africa, I’m sure a lot of them are made with Israel’s own interests in mind. That being said, not sure how it can make prisons that are exclusive for Blacks, and malls that are exclusive to Whites. Unless, of course, you are exaggerating.
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‘Israel did not have close ties with apartheid South Africa initially’
Read this Guardian article. ^^^
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelis-build-the-worlds-biggest-detention-centre-7547401.html
On Israeli investment.
http://www.jpost.com/Business/Business-News/For-Israel-Africa-investment-remains-black-box
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Wrong link Guardian article here.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel
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The article you posted supports what I said. Here is a quote from it:
“Israel was openly critical of apartheid through the 1950s and 60s as it built alliances with post-colonial African governments. But most African states broke ties after the 1973 Yom Kippur war and the government in Jerusalem began to take a more benign view of the isolated regime in Pretoria.”
That is more or less what I said in my post. I never denied that Israel, later on, cooperated with the apartheid regime. The article does bring up how some South African Jews, back in the late 40’s, did seem to support apartheid. But I never denied that. I’d like to note, however, many South African Jews did not support apartheid, such as “Mandela’s first white friend”, Nate Bregman.
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I can’t stand how simplistically people look at Israel. As if Jews living in Palestine=genocide. And European Jews= Europeans. It is as if Elhaik and Zand are the only authorities on Jewish identity. Nationalism is only bad when we do it, eh?
I do agree in the racial status Jews are white, but actual light-skinned Middle Easterners are (racial-standing wise) half-white. Which is why Shannon Elizabeth is white but not DJ Khaled (same thing with light-skinned Latinos- see Pitbull vs. Freddie Prinze Jr.).
I agree Israel has done some messed up things, but that’s not a reason to deport or un-autonomize quite a number of people. It is not impossible for Palestinian liberty to happen and Jewish nationalism in the only remotely Jewish state since the Khazar Empire.
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See my other points above for refutations on “Palestinian Jews” among diffrerent nonsensical points.
Also, comparing Israel to America is pathetic- because no proto-Zionist wanted to do it for colonialism. Nobody who once called us Semitic interlopers gets to call us European. It’s more like Liberia, which came from nationalism. If European Jews go back to the densely populated Europe, I can be sure non-Orthodox Jews will soon be assimilated and all Jews will be ostracized if they don’t once enough time passes.
Also, I’m against the use of Palestinian Arab culture to dominate the area. Likewise, English should use the Biblical Greek names for the places but Hebrew names for newfangled Jewish places, and Arabic names for earlier Palestinian Arab places.
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@Uriel
Genetically speaking, the Y-Chromosomes of Ashkenazi Jews shows a Middle Eastern origin. Whereas their mitochondrial DNA seems to indict a European origin. This supports what most people assume, which is that European (Ashkenazi) Jews are a mix of European and Middle Eastern populations. Perhaps a bunch of Jews, after the fall of the Roman Empire, spread out throughout Europe, and converted local women. They then reproduced, in relatively isolated communities, for a thousand plus years.
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@Benjamin
Converts aren’t Jews, but their children sure are as long as they stay with the culture and their parents came from a preexisting sect. Likewise, half-Jews are Jews without converting and so are quarter-Jews provided Jewish is their largest ancestry.
Consider Jewishness the last open ethnicity, as every over ethnicity only gains members from by in-group birth, adoption, or assimilation of another group. I do believe converts should be barred from certain Jewish activities, but not all of them. On that note I find “closed faiths” ridiculous and petty.
Take note how you said ‘relatively isolate communities’, because while I agree Jews can’t live on an island away from gentiles, they do need spaces of their own beyond individual buildings or blocks.
I don’t recall most people assuming Ashkenazi Jews are half-European half-Middle Eastern, but rather that Ashkenazi Jews are just converts from a time when Jews were actively converting (who happen to have small amounts of Levantine DNA, as if converts are not Jews at some point).
Back on topic. why do people act as if Palestinian nationalism is mutually exclusive with Jewish nationalism? America, Birobidzhan are 100% stolen land with zero Jews having any ancestral or cultural heritage there. Likewise Uganda and Alaska would be stealing from more disconnected lands and going back to Europe or elsewhere would be reckless.
It is as if many think a people can survive without a decent nationstate, even a shared one.
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@Uriel
What I posted, with regards to the genetics of Ashkenazi Jews, is what most genetic tests seem to be saying. I didn’t just assume they were half Middle Eastern, half European. Most Ashkenazi Jews have a sizable amount of Levantine DNA, more so than say, the average Russian or Pole.
I agree that Jewish and Palestinian nationalism are not mutually exclusive. I support a two state solution, although I do not believe that this is likely to materialize anytime soon, unfortunately. I think it is quite clear that both Jews and Palestinians need lands of their own, as oppose to being at the mercy of other societies. With regards to settling Jews in Alaska, Madagascar, or the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, I don’t think anybody considers those as actual options in today’s world. Even if they may have made suitable Jewish states at one point, those days have come and gone.
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(https://electronicintifada.net/content/you-cant-report-truthfully-israel-without-facing-its-wrath/15131)
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@Kiwi
I agree. Putin seems to have a rather warm feeling towards Israel, at least based on what comments I’ve read from him. And even formerly antisemitic Russian politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky has apparently said that “Russia will never allow any kind of violence against Israel.”
I’d also like to mention that relations between Israel and India seem to be pretty strong last I checked. Especially since Narendra Modi became PM. Indians also have a relatively positive opinion of Israel. In short, with or without the US, I don’t think Israel will sink to the bottom of the world ladder anytime soon.
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In Dec 2015 Benjamin wrote:
“That is more or less what I said in my post. I never denied that Israel, later on, cooperated with the apartheid regime. The article does bring up how some South African Jews, back in the late 40’s, did seem to support apartheid. But I
never denied that. I’d like to note, however, many South African Jews did not support apartheid, such as “Mandela’s first white friend”, Nate Bregman.”
South African Jews, in the main, had never had any significant voice (much like their other white south african brethren) in the humanitarian pursuit of justice to off-set the extreme asymmetrical privilege they had derived from at the expense of Africans. Jews were as much the dominant group of oppressors as were the afrikaners and anglos.
That ‘many south african jews did not support apartheid’ is not corroborated by South Africans in general, but the nice PR that money can buy in media like Haaretz, Forward, Jerusalem Post ,used to whitewash their role as “innocent non -racists’ in both apartheids. Notwithstanding that they comprise of the richest community on the planet all at the expense of cheap South African Black labour and beneficiaries of one of the worst crime against humanity. The say so from quislings like Buthelezi and Maimane and puppets, like Mandela does not exonerate them their shameful place as colluders and collaborators in the most odious racist regimes.
Jews in South Africa not only benefited and supported in South Africa, they had through the worst repressive regime on earth in the 80’s under the presidencies of Vorster and P.W.Botha, supported that other apartheid regime: israel. They, more than Americans Jews, gave the most private money during the height of apartheid, to israel, during the 70’s and 80’s to the tune of billions of dollars. It was them that had brokered the covert relationship with israel, supplying apartheid south africa verboten tritium, technical know-how and nuclear weaponry.
It was not the afrikaners that complained bitterly when israel had to show face to the international community, that they had to ‘speak out against apartheid’ and sanctions were tightened, but the Jews, who had used their ‘prominence’ and clout with the office in Pretoria.
Ronny Kasrils, a freedom fighter against the apartheid regime was ostracized by the Jewish community. When apartheid ‘ended’,he was praised to thy kingdom come what a mensch he was and how Jews never really supported apartheid. They did. They lived it and enjoyed it He was dropped again when he had spoke against apartheid israel.
The exception to the rule, that negligible handful, drop in the ocean, a fraction of, the inordinately small amount of non-racist white jewish people does not take way from the fact south african jews hold the strange title for supporting two apartheids.
The only thing that the afrikaners did not have to their benefit was of a vicarious suffering to garner sympathy as the israeli’s (with the help of international zionism ) have used to their advantage after 1967, through the symbiosis of the holocaust industry and their gargantuan campaign of Islamophobia.
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It was in 1948, that George Orwell published his dystopian novel, “1984”. It was the same year that the state of israel was established and apartheid was proclaimed as the racial doctrine by the Nationalist Party in South Africa.
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@taotesan
Like. Thanks for uncovering that information.
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Israel is a villa in the jungle. An oasis of Judeo-Christian civilization in a sea of Islamic barbarism.
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