The “Report of the Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent on its mission to the United States of America” (August 18th 2016) was reported by the Washington Post under the headline:
“U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial
terrorism,’ says U.N. panel”
But only two of its 36 recommendations had to do with reparations.
In January 2016 the United Nations sent Frantz Fanon’s daughter and two other human rights experts (from South Africa and the Philippines, pictured above) to the US to study the human rights of Black Americans. From the 19th to the 29th they visited the cities of New York, Washington, Baltimore, Chicago and Jackson, Mississippi. They talked to government officials, lawyers, judges, scholars, the Chicago police and hundreds of people from Black suburbs. Some government officials refused to talk to them. They were not allowed to visit Parchman Farm, an infamous prison in Mississippi.
In the 22-page report, they lay out their findings, conclusions and recommendations. They note the progress made since their first visit in 2010. The report is an excellent summary of anti-Black racism in the US in 2016.
Some of what they found out about the US (links go to posts of my own):
- police brutality,
- racial profiling,
- mass incarceration,
- debtor prisons,
- voter suppression laws,
- police in schools,
- school-to-prison pipeline,
- underfunding and closing down schools that are heavily Black,
- whitewashed history taught at school,
- school segregation,
- housing segregation,
- obesity and food deserts,
- predatory lending,
- racial steering,
- gentrification,
- environmental racism,
- Flint water crisis,
- incinerator project in Curtis Bay, Baltimore,
- intersectionality,
- domestic violence,
- increased murder and violence against Black trans women,
- high rates of Black women dying in childbirth.
Among their conclusions:
“Despite the positive measures, the Working Group remains extremely concerned about the human rights situation of African Americans. In particular, the legacy of colonial history, enslavement, racial subordination and segregation, racial terrorism and racial inequality in the United States remains a serious challenge, as there has been no real commitment to reparations and to truth and reconciliation for people of African descent. Contemporary police killings and the trauma that they create are reminiscent of the past racial terror of lynching. Impunity for State violence has resulted in the current human rights crisis and must be addressed as a matter of urgency.”
Among their recommendations:
- Get rid of:
- solitary confinement,
- police in schools,
- debtor prisons,
- voter suppression laws.
- Sign into law:
- international treaties on human rights,
- End Racial Profiling Act (ERPA),
- Second Chance Reauthorization Act,
- Sentencing Reform and Corrections Act of 2015,
- H.R. 40 (see below).
- Put into practice:
- The recommendations of the President’s Task Force on 21st Century Policing.
- Strengthen:
- Executive Order 12898 (against environmental racism).
Reparations: Like Ta-Nehisi Coates, they urge the passage of H.R. 40, which would set up a commission to study the matter. They see reparations along the lines of the Caribbean Community’s Ten-Point Action Plan on Reparations:
“which includes a formal apology, health initiatives, educational opportunities, an African knowledge programme, psychological rehabilitation, technology transfer and financial support, and debt cancellation.”
– Abagond, 2016.
See also:
- The 22-page report (PDF)
- United Nations
- Ta-Nehisi Coates – The Case for Reparations
- The New Jim Crow
- Frantz Fanon
- US anti-Black racism
- 23 ways you could be killed if you are Black in America – an Alicia Keys joint that also pushes for the Sentencing Reform Act.
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@LoM
Agreed.
If British cops and the Garda can keep order without guns, chemical weapons (pepper spray) or portable torture devices (tasers), so can American cops.
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What about Black Canadians forced to run up to Canada back in the day? Where do we fit in? Seriously.
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Afrofem, we do have armed police (so does Ireland) but they are just used in special circumstances.
I also think you should get rid of the 3 strike law, its deplorable, I understand that your prisons are all private? It doesn’t really suit them to focus on rehabilitation. Your bail system needs serious scrutiny as well imo.
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I would imagine, although I’m not black or American that the most important thing is acknowledgement of the treatment of African Americans from the time your ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved until now. A heartfelt and genuine apology. And a massive change to equality in all aspects of life for the future from this point on.
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Mirky, Exactly!
Watch this also it’s really good – I love Vice documentaries, they are so real.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGomdoO368g&t=20m55s)
Bankers will get away with practically any crimes as they are the ones who run and rule our countries. Presidents and prime ministers are but middle management now.
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“I would imagine, although I’m not black or American that the most important thing is acknowledgement of the treatment of African Americans from the time your ancestors were kidnapped and enslaved until now. A heartfelt and genuine apology. ”
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
@Zoe
That’s your imagination …
Speaking for myself – to hell with an apology at this late date! I doubt that it would be a real or sincere reformation. Give me the money in one useful form (land, education, cash, loans, relocation, etc) or another.
The likely problem is that WHITE people in racist Amerika would revolt and take up arms and go to war against such reparations before any serious reparations would occur. But they’re okay with all the money the US gives Israel and the trillions wasted on the US military budget for world domination! Historically white people don’t permit Black people to receive anything that they’re also not getting… except violence and prison sentences. Zero sum gain game!!!
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@Zoe Jordan
“…we do have armed police (so does Ireland) but they are just used in special circumstances.”
I’m aware that the UK and Ireland both have SWAT teams that are deployed primarily during “terrorism” events or civil disturbances. In the US, such forces are overused and the regular police are highly militarized.
The regular police utilize helicopters, armored personnel carriers, a variety of chemical weapons, like teargas and battlefield equipment like flashbang grenades.
Like LoM stated upthread, all of the prisons are not private, though privatized prisons are mushrooming at the state level. Many state and federal prisons don’t provide necessities they once did such as shoes, socks, underwear, soap, toothpaste, blankets and some food items. The prisoners families are forced to send money to the prisoners so they can purchase those items and more at the prison commissary. In essence, prisoners families are forced to pay the cost of their loved ones imprisonment.
The prison authorities, private corporations and prison guard unions are the big winners in that system.
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@ Herneith
You make a darn good point. I’m glad you brought that up.
African descent people throughout this hemisphere are a part of any solution that gets hashed out at a future date.
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@ Abagond
Thanks for a link to the original report.
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Reblogged this on League of Bloggers For a Better World and commented:
“U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism,’ says U.N. panel”
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@ Fan, fair enough. As I don’t know what it’s like to be you and I never will. You know far better than me what you need, x
@ Afrofem,
‘Many state and federal prisons don’t provide necessities they once did such as shoes, socks, underwear, soap, toothpaste, blankets and some food items. The prisoners families are forced to send money to the prisoners so they can purchase those items and more at the prison commissary. In essence, prisoners families are forced to pay the cost of their loved ones imprisonment.’
that’s dreadful, what if they don’t have families. If you’re like us many people in prison come off they streets, they have nothing and no one.
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Hi Zoe,
Reparations isn’t simply a matter of what I need. It’s more a matter of what my people/ancestors/self are OWED. It’s an unpaid labor DEBT, and more, that ought to be paid as a matter of JUSTICE. Yes, there are many Black people that would agree with you. They would be happy to accept an apology – and that’s all. But we’re not all the same..
For me, the costs and pain are of racism are beyond great for a mere (insincere or sincere) .. “Oh, we’re sorry for what our ancestors did to your ancestors…” and some silly monument about slavery. People/societies were enriched and privileged off the backs of Black pain, Black cruelty, Black slavery. Four centuries worth…!
Maybe if we’re paid “something” we may forgive the whole debt. Only the Creator knows. Fairness isn’t doing 400 years of dirt and profitable endeavors off of kidnapped Africans and their progeny and then just say oops.. “My bad. Sorry.” And that’s it. Everything is alright, hunky-dory and forgiven.
Perhaps Abagond will provide you with a link to the post/analogy he wrote about a thief’s offspring (daughter?) enjoying the spoils of his theft while the offspring of the victim had no such inheritance because the thief stole it! That post helped others to gain some realistic perspective about why reparations ought to be paid.
I ain’t mad at you Zoe. This isn’t personal. I don’t see you the same as the knuckleheads that hangout here! Just feel very strongly about what’s right and fair.
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@Afrofem
” Many state and federal prisons don’t provide necessities they once did such as shoes, socks, underwear, soap, toothpaste, blankets and some food items. The prisoners families are forced to send money to the prisoners so they can purchase those items and more at the prison commissary. In essence, prisoners families are forced to pay the cost of their loved ones imprisonment.”
Thank you for bringing this up. Too many people believe that prisoners are living for free off tax payers money and that simply is not true. Both my cousins were in jail. One in Federal and one in state. My family has had to some out of pocket for an enormous amount of necessities. Both of them worked in the system and we’re paid 2 hrs or less depending on the service in jail. Worst yet some of what they earned went towards boarding based on what my aunt told me.
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there is this documentary on netflix called 13th and its about the prison system.
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I plan to follow poster Sapphire Yagami in viewing Ava DuVarney’s 13th about the prison system in America. I am convinced that the education system especially in low income communities that perform poorly are deliberate. That is who the high school to prison pipeline was created for those youngsters to fail and become apart of this racist system that is nothing more than modern day plantations and modern day slavery.
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@ Fan, I know it’s not personal. It is your right to tell me what you feel you are owed.Like I said I can only imagine, I do not know but I have to say your argument for why you think you (as a people not a person) are due reparations makes perfect sense. 🙂
I think the idea of working for your ‘board’ in prison is good, as long as it is reasonable work. But families supplying essentials is just wrong on every level. So much crime is because of drugs, rehab would be a better and cheaper option. My Dad was given the choice of rehab in Ireland for drunk driving offences which of course he chose and he did manage to stay clean and sober for a while after, Rehab followed by a 12 step program is such a better option to prison where most of the time (here at least) offenders just have easy access to even harder drugs and do a massive amount of criminal networking!
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Anybody debating reparations has to decide the “who pays what to whom”. I have yet to see a proposal that is even remotly just.
Especially the “who” is highly problematic, if one isn’t dealing with states as payers and clearly defined groups as receivers.
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^^^^^^
That’s simple, the whites can pay.
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13th is an excellent documentary. My sister has shown it in her social studies classes.
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@ Herneith
That’s exactly the part that isn’t easy. How will yu determine it? How many people will changetheir race identification on the census as soon as reparations are seriously debated. So you would have to take a census fromthe past and reconstruct peoples ancestry. And a government doing thatmakes me incredibly uncomfortable.
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@Kartoffel
Anyone who identified themselves as “White” on the 2010 census is still “White” twenty or thirty years later. Thanks to deep racial housing segregation, zip codes (used to deliver mail in the US) could also be crossed referenced to determine ethnicity.
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@ Kartoffel
Regarding your question, “who pays what to whom”, I think that who pays should be the USA as a whole, assuming that its wealth was created, in part, on the back of Black slaves who received nothing in return for their labor and for a long period of time.
The second part of your question, namely what is not very difficult to answer. It can be money, or something equivalent, and the amount should be determined by careful consideration.
Regarding the third part of your question, to whom I would say that the recipients would be the descendants of the Black slaves alive today but who are considered by the society as Black themselves. For more details about my own thoughts on the matter see my exchanges with the commentator jefe starting with,
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/12/31/walter-plecker/#comment-305564)
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It goes 2 to 3 ways. Many of the ‘haves’ would be humiliated and embarrassed while the ‘have nots’ would be welcome to some form of repayment. When I saw Making of the Mob Chicago and familiar history of the Eddie Jones and ‘the Policy’ (black lotto racketeering) of the South Side came to my attention. A Chicago Outfit member and former friend of Mr Jones sold him out by taking away 80 percent and eventually all of it for themselves. Then Bosses like Anthony (Tony) Arcado legitimatize all the money they made from not only their rackets but the rackets of other groups including Blacks into all these corporations that got it start from the money passed down the generations. It’s sad because South Side Chicago might have a different a story if that money was invested in them. I’m talking about multiple black corporate billionaire infrastructure employing generations since the time of Edward Jones.. Everything is to chance and luck.
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@TeddyBearDaddy
That was an interesting and familiar story. A lot of wealth has been siphoned out of Black communities for centuries, by individuals, companies and universities, etc. Wealth is still siphoned out through predatory loans, the Prison Industrial Complex (police, courts, prisons, etc.), underfunded schools and other means.
The people on the receiving end of the siphon (the “haves”, both past and present) are the loudest voices against reparations.
I think it is less “chance and luck” and more deliberate actions that up to the present have had no consequences for the “haves”.
This country also owes reparations to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia for killing millions of people, damaging the rainforests with herbicides and littering the countryside with unexploded ordnance.
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@munubantu
I followed your link and your comment was both thoughtful and exhaustive. The interplay between you and jefe was food for thought. There are a lot of complexities to consider because human affairs are rarely simple.
Thanks for the link.
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@ munubantu
I read your linked post, and that are certainly interesting ideas. But whatever system would be applied it would demand the government to determine who is Black. And that doesn’t sit well with me. I would be more ok with a system that payed out the money to residents of Black areas, even if this would obvoiusly be pretty unjust. On the other hand one would again face the problem that it would create an incentive to game that system. But one could use resident lists that predate the political discussions about them and only residents at that determined point that are still alive would be eligible. Not new-comers or the heirs.
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@Sharina
Members of my extended family have also had to help support cousins in prison. There is also the long road back after prison when getting a job and housing, etc. is extremely difficult.
Yet, there are still people who complain about prisoners getting “three hots (meals) and a cot (bed)” and having time to pump iron all day on the taxpayer dime.
The complainers have no idea of how prisons are a racket that draw wealth out of the Black community. I’ve even read some crazy racists who insist that the cost of prison is reparations to the Black community in the US.
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“Anybody debating reparations has to decide the “who pays what to whom”.”
“That’s simple, the whites can pay.”
.
If whites/US government/banks/corporations/businesses, the families that profited.., etc, etc actually would pay reparations then white people at large might put to rest the FEAR that if/when Black people gained the upper hand over them we would then marginalize, oppress and mistreat them the same as they did us.
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Pay up white people! You people need to pay up!
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I think that “any reparations money” should also come from the descendants of Irish Americans who killed, terrorized and waged economic war on African Americans . Memphis Massacre, the NYC Draft Riots, Lombard Street Riots, Boston riots etc etc etc. Irish Americans today benefit from this oppression of African Americans, and if they had any sense of morality they would apologise and recompense. But don’t hold your breath.
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“apologise” more proof that you are not from the USA. How much should the UK pay in reparations?
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@ Zoe
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Out of genuine interest Zoe, who would be apologising to black for slavery and the legacy? The government? White people of the US? Or further still, those who are ancestors of slavers in which case we would need to go to Europe and of course the UK….
I get the sense anyone out of the US would feel strongly about being too far removed to have impacted this atrocity so I imagine nothing but resentment would happen.
I can see as others are pointing out different gestures are going to suit different people better.
Despite no arms, there was a spate of black males being killed in police custody, particularly I recall in the 80s. I don’t know many law abiding poc that are still not wary of the police in some capacity.
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Congress already apologized for slavery:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93059465
I can’t say I feel better funnily enough.
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@ Kartoffel
As Abagond pointed out in his post, the UN investigators recommended reparations similar to the Caribbean Community’s Ten-Point Action Plan on Reparations. It makes sense to me that the U.S. government should examine and consider this plan, as well as other reparations elsewhere in the world. It’s not like there aren’t already models on which the U.S. could build its own plan.
As far as unfairness, that’s something white people should just accept. Slavery was unfair. Jim Crow was unfair. Any unfairness white Americans suffer from reparations will be miniscule compared to the unfairness and injustices African Americans have borne for centuries.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Nice deflection! As you know, the subject of the UN report has nothing to do with any reparations for the Irish.
@gro jo
““apologise” more proof that you are not from the USA.”
Gro jo showing his naivete as usual. Using your shoddy logic, abagond is “not from the USA” since he often says “colour”.
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@Kartoffel
Why isn’t one “dealing with states as payers” and what’s not “clearly defined” about the “receivers”?
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@ Kartoffel
“I would be more ok with a system that payed out the money to residents of Black areas, even if this would obvoiusly be pretty unjust. On the other hand one would again face the problem that it would create an incentive to game that system. But one could use resident lists that predate the political discussions about them and only residents at that determined point that are still alive would be eligible. Not new-comers or the heirs.”
This idea has its own difficulties. While there has been and continues to be segregation, there’s also been a significant deal of movement and relocation among the African American community, including the Great Migration. People in the U.S. in general tend to move around the country more for jobs than in some other nations, and career military are constantly on the move.
Take my own nieghborhood for example. It is mixed racially but at least 50% white, which would seem under your plan to mean it would be excluded. My next-door neighbor is black and her family has deep roots in the town reaching back before the Civil War, but she no longer lives in the historically black section of town. Two doors down is a black family that relocated here to work at the town’s university; they are originally from a historically black neighborhood in Chicago. Do they get left out? Down the street is an African American military family who will only be here a couple years before moving on to their next posting.
What about black farmers, etc., who live in rural areas? If the nearest neighbors are 2 and 5 miles away, and those neighbors are white, does that mean the black rural family would be excluded from reparations?
“Original residents” itself is a tricky term. Is someone an “original resident” of Detroit if they moved there 40 years ago from rural Mississippi? Are their heirs not counted even if those heirs grew up in that black neighborhood of Detroit?
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@ resw
Your own words:
“He patronisingly (and wrongly) assumes I’m American just because we disagree about something.”
And no, I didn’t go searching for this. Someone commented on the old thread this weekend, so I read through it because it was one I hadn’t looked at yet.
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“Here’s a blog post forcefully arguing that Britain owes $10 trillion in reparations for its 800+ years of crimes against humanity in Ireland.”
This isn’t a post about Ireland!
Can you for once not make all things BLACK about YOU and YOUR WHITE irish interests????????????
Many people (even wee wittle elves) learn from their mistakes! Apparently, you do not. Exactly how many chances do you require to become a consistent decent contributing CONSIDERATE respectful commenter in this space??
Lucky for you that we’re in cyberspace instead of real space where your chances to visit among the rest of us would have expired a long time ago!
You was never intending to be a welcome participant of this blog!
You are just a lost racist misfit who can’t seem to find your way home – and remain there.
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@ Kartoffel
That should be “my own neighborhood” and I also meant to point out it didn’t even exist before 1995. Some of the houses here are only a couple years old. Yet there are several African American families living here who I feel should be rightly included in any reparations for slavery.
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@Gro jo. I don’t know. Trillions I guess.
@ Omnipresent, All of the above probably. But I imagine if a apology was made it would be as difficult as deciding who pays reparations. I have commented on other blogs that I am well aware of black people (Young men mostly) dieing whilst in police custody. The metropolitan police are institutionally racist it is true,
@Abagond, thanks.
@ Mirky, I would fight abolishment of the monarchy to the bitter end. I love the royal family. Why would that make you feel better?
Whether white people feel reparations are fair or not is completely irrelevant. If the UN has decided they are due they should be paid. By whom, how much, to whom would have to be hashed out and decided. If the UN Decided the UK owe reparations too then so be it.
Funny how The US and The UK love the UN so much until it is them under scrutiny.
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@Fan…
Oh you know….black…Irish. They are one in the same to LOM.
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Linked to the wrong comment:
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@ Solitaire
I’ll have to read the Carribean text I’ll get back to you on that.
The problem with fairness is that you have to apply it to the unfair too. The Nazi criminals were tried in a reasonably fair trial, even though they didn’t afford the same to anybody.
Also the unfairness wouldn’t hit Whites alone, but also non-whites who would be unfairly qualified as not eligible or vice versa. But I agree that possible unfair treatment of Whites would be the thing I would be least concerned about. At least in the context of the US where such a measure couldn’t be passed without significant White support anyway.
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@resw
Up to your old resident troll tricks again, eh.
I noticed how you lobbed an anti-Irish grenade upthread:
If you were aware of US history (perhaps you are not, since you are not an American), you would know that Irish Americans are just one of many European groups that are responsible for centuries of Black discrimination and degradation.
But then stirring the “night soil pot” is your speciality, isn’t it?
Then your second punch of the one-two punch is, “who me——he/she said it first” pseudo-innocence act as evidenced by this comment:
“@Lord of Mirkwood
Nice deflection! As you know, the subject of the UN report has nothing to do with any reparations for the Irish.”
So. Very. Dishonest.
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@ Solitaire
Thanks for the link. That portion of the thread was revealing indeed.
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Afrofem
Not really sure how it is dishonest as they did, as I agree many other European groups did. He just pointed out one, but in all fairness the thread is not about Irish reparations.
Linda did a great detailed post on how the Irish did some explicitly diety deeds to African Americans in effort to be seen as and become white. I will find it and post it here. It is a very good read and one of the reason some people dismiss LOM’s need to make everything about the Irish.
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Dirty*
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@ Sharina
“Oh you know….black…Irish. They are one in the same to LOM.”
.
Except one group is part of the privileged whiteness club, the other group is not. If he thinks they are one in the same maybe he should try doing what Joshua Solomon did.
Another difference I notice is that lom and some others spell Black with a small “b” and irish with a capital “I.” White Supremacy isn’t as subtle as some think.
But then, neither am I.
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@ Kartoffel
“The problem with fairness is that you have to apply it to the unfair too. …
Also the unfairness wouldn’t hit Whites alone, but also non-whites who would be unfairly qualified as not eligible or vice versa.”
One could argue that such unfairness is already taking place in the U.S. in the matter of Native Americans. A certain percentage of the tax dollars everyone pays to the federal government are allocated to the Bureau of Indian Affairs and distributed to the various tribes in keeping with the terms of their treaties. Undoubtedly this means that there are, for example, Vietnamese Americans who pay taxes that go to support Native Americans even though their families were not in the U.S. at the time those Native Americans were forcibly subjugated and rounded up into reservations.
But that’s how it works here. We don’t get the chance to tick off boxes allocating where our federal tax dollars go. Unless someone is filthy rich, they are probably contributing only a few cents each year to the BIA anyway.
“The Nazi criminals were tried in a reasonably fair trial, even though they didn’t afford the same to anybody.”
Unfortunately we are well past being able to place on trial actual slave owners, slave traders, and politicians who supported slavery. That ship has long sailed.
So whatever happens regarding reparations will of necessity not be 100% fair to everyone. The question is, what is more unfair:
– that some non-black POC see a small share of their tax dollars allocated for black reparations
– or never to pay reparartions for slavery?
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@Afrofem
“you would know that Irish Americans are just one of many European groups that are responsible for centuries of Black discrimination and degradation.”
And who said they weren’t? No one.
“As you know, the subject of the UN report has nothing to do with any reparations for the Irish”
My comment was about reparations for African Americans, which is 100% on topic. Lord of Mirkwood’s was about reparations for the Irish which is 100% off topic.
But when you have the reading comprehension of a third grader, like you do, how easy it is to see why you never know what’s going on.
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“Yet there are several African American families living here who I feel should be rightly included in any reparations for slavery.”
.
Reparations for slavery? Is slavery the lone reason for reparations?
What about:
police brutality,
racial profiling,
mass incarceration,
debtor prisons,
voter suppression laws,
police in schools,
school-to-prison pipeline,
underfunding and closing down schools that are heavily Black,
whitewashed history taught at school,
school segregation,
housing segregation,
obesity and food deserts,
predatory lending,
racial steering,
gentrification,
environmental racism,
Flint water crisis,
incinerator project in Curtis Bay, Baltimore,
intersectionality,
domestic violence,
increased murder and violence against Black trans women,
high rates of Black women dying in childbirth.
..and much, much more.
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@ Solitaire
The Caribbean 10-point-plan doesn’t seem to address the problem how to identify individuals eligible for reparations. It mostly talks about reparations between nations, which don’t have this problem.
As I said I prefer a somewhat unjust solution to one that makes the government classify its citizens into ethnic or racial groups, if need be. But I’m not convinced that the whole idea of reparations is worthwhile anyway. I prefer it to affirmative action though.
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@ Fan
You’re absolutely right. I apologize for the inaccuracy of my wording.
@ Kartoffel
I understand your concerns, but our government already uses racial classification. One can argue the pros and cons of doing do, but it’s not anything new.
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@Solitaire
“Your own words:”
And what relevance does that have to anything here? Nothing as usual.
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“Gro jo showing his naivete as usual. Using your shoddy logic, abagond is “not from the USA” since he often says “colour”.”
Note that Abagond never tried to pretend to be a born and bred super-patriot USAer. I know he’s part Jamaican. I figure his father was from there and his mother, a White woman, either from the UK, which would explain his penchant for “colour” instead of “color” or, less likely, a white USAer.
When are you going to state where and what you really are? You never answered the questions I asked you on the Black Museum thread. Tangled up in your web of lies again? Oh dear!
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@gro jo
“Note that Abagond never tried to pretend to be a born and bred super-patriot USAer. ”
And when did I ever say I was a “super-patriot USAer”. Please provide the “proof” since you lazily throw that word around. Where is the proof? And then tell us how this relates to the topic.
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“Unfortunately we are well past being able to place on trial actual slave owners, slave traders, and politicians who supported slavery. That ship has long sailed.”
@ Solitaire
Those ships may have long sailed but some of those ships left a very wide wake of wealth in its course. Wealth passed down through the generations that’s still in existence and being enjoyed.
Is their a statue of limitations for the survivors of unpaid slaves (and grossly underpaid victims of racial discrimination) on reclaiming some of that wealth?
Just asking ..
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@ Solitaire
I know that the US classifies its citizens by race, and that has always troubled me. But at least it is by self-identification. That would not be possible if one would tie legal issues to that status. Though it might be beneficial to incentivice Whites to officially identify as Black.
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@ Fan
“Is their a statue of limitations for the survivors of unpaid slaves (and grossly underpaid victims of racial discrimination) on reclaiming some of that wealth?”
I’m not a lawyer so I have no idea what statutes may exist, but personally I don’t believe that there should be any statute of limitations on reclaiming that wealth. If such statutes exist, they should be overturned.
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@Fan …
Very true. I think I myself need to enforce the rule of making black Black.
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@resw
“…tell us how this relates to the topic”
Ah yes, the Topic Police maneuver. After you have thrown the thread off topic with your night soil pot stirring, anyone who responds to the topic you introduced is declared “off topic” by resw, the topic watchdog.
It is a lazy, dishonest way of introducing and prolonging discord in a thread.
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@Afrofem
My first post on this thread was 100% on topic. Your massa deflected to talk about the plight of the Irish like he always does. But no surprise you rushed to his defence.
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@ Kartoffel
“I know that the US classifies its citizens by race, and that has always troubled me.”
I can understand how it would be disturbing to someone who’s not used to such a system, especially if you’re from a nation where classification was used for horrible purposes not too long ago.
“But at least it is by self-identification. That would not be possible if one would tie legal issues to that status.”
It’s not entirely by self-identification even now. Legal issues are already tied to status as a Native American, and self-identification is not sufficient in the eyes of either the federal government or the tribes.
“Though it might be beneficial to incentivice Whites to officially identify as Black.”
Again, that already comes up regarding identity as a Native American. Someone can claim such heritage on a census form as part of their self-identification, but if someone’s attempting to establish themselves as Native for official legal purposes, the requirements are much more demanding than mere self-identification. Presumably similar guidelines could be established to prevent racial fraud in the case of African American reparations. I’m not saying some people might not manage to game the system, but large-scale fraud can probably be circumvented.
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Reparations are looooooooooooooooooong overdue. How can people talk about healing racial wounds…when debts haven’t been paid. Everyy other group that has been colonized,raped and faced genocide has gotten some type of payment. Black people are the only group that seems left off that list. Why is that???
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@Res
“But when you have the reading comprehension of a third grader, like you do, how easy it is to see why you never know what’s going on.”—I hope you don’t believe that. You know as well as I do that online writings can be misunderstood sometimes. Especially in disagreements.
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@Fan …
I like that you provided a list. Not sure if this counts, but fair wages.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/
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@sharinalr
I’d contend citing her poor reading comprehension skills was giving her the benefit of the doubt since I really don’t know whether Afrofem lacks reading comprehension skills, is just sucking up to her master or is a white supremacist posing as a black woman. She sure does the exact same thing white supremacists do when you talk about white past crimes against African-Americans and the need for reparations.
They deflect, as she has done, are quick to label you as a racist or “anti-Irish” without basis, as she has done, and defends the racism of others like Lord of Mirkwood, as she has done.
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@resw
“My first post on this thread was 100% on topic.”
No, it was not.
In your first comment:
You wrote:
Prior to your verbal grenade, most of the comments were focused on state level harms and reparations for those harms. There was mention of non-specific “Whites” in the thread. You introduced the Irish element.
As part of the White group, Irish Americans have done their share of harm against Black folk. So have a laundry list of other European descent groups that traded their former national identities for the prize of “Whiteness” in America. Reparations involve all of those “Whites”who benefited from Black exploitation, not just the Irish.
Your comment veered off topic because you couldn’t resist introducing discord into an interesting and fairly civil discussion thread. Not enough “night soil” being flung around, eh resw?
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@Afrofem
“No, it was not”
Lol. Only in your little world is a post about paying for reparations not related to the topic about reparations.
Do you even think before you write?
“You introduced the Irish element.”
And I have every right to since Irish Americans as a group oppressed African Americans as a group in America for well over 150 years. It’s just a fact that you can’t accept.
“Reparations involve all of those “Whites”who benefited from Black exploitation, not just the Irish.”
And no one said they didn’t. Again. But the only reason you’re saying this is because you want to protect your massa’s feelings, like you white supremacist lackeys tend to do.
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@resw
Ah, now the final stage of your shallow troll tricks.
➤Personal attacks
➤Name calling
➤Projecting your behavior onto your adversary
All cheap and indolent troll maneuvers.
So. Very. Lame.
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Fan… pointed out something very interesting here.
For most whites who use the Irish slaves argument, they will see this as a reason to believe they are owed reparations too. As I have read some Irish sold themselves into indentured servitude just to get over here. I am not against the Irish being compensated in the wake of being a slave, but I do see a lot of white people taking advantage of this as them being owed too. There should be a method to weed them out because for me indentured servitude and slavery are not one in the same. Yet many whites believe it is.
Just as an FYI I don’t see slavery as the only reason blacks deserve reparations.
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@Afrofem
Here’s another name/personal attack for you: hypocrite. Since you were the first one to call names, or did you forget you called me “old resident troll” before I first addressed you.
And another one: liar. Since we all know that your massa Lord of Mirkwood and you were talking about Ireland well before I first commented on this thread. So why you are defending his constant deflections to the Irish and Ireland on every single thread about African Americans is beyond me.
See, I actually have appropriate reasons to call you the names I do. Just like the good reasons I already gave for calling you the white supremacist lackey you are acting like.
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“And when did I ever say I was a “super-patriot USAer”.”
A Trump apologist is, de facto, a “super-patriot USAer”, no need to bother with “proof”.
However, just for fun, I’m going to plague you with your own words. Here goes:
” on Sun 25 Sep 2016 at 00:56:39
resw
This why you don’t let non- “African Americans” tell “African-American” history. They didn’t even have the decency to get an African-American architect. They had to import an African from Britain, just like they passed off a half-white/half-Kenyan President and convinced everyone he was the same as every other “African-American”…I will boycott it, just like I boycotted the Chinese-designed MLK memorial down there…Yoruba leaders were some of the biggest middlemen in the Atlantic slave trade. So why the NMAAHC is honouring the Yoruban leadership when most “African Americans” don’t even have Yoruban ancestry is beyond me…@gro jo
“Wouldn’t your narrow definition exclude them from the pantheon of African American explorers? ”
And where’d you get that idea. Quote it…@gro jo
“he was born in the USA”
Many people were born in the USA. Does that mean they’re African American?…@gro jo
“he was born in the USA”
Many people were born in the USA. Does that mean they’re African American? ”
What does this have to do with this topic? Nothing much, just that, as a Brit, you should relate the topic to your country’s role in creating the problems under discussion.
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@ resw
Please continue your resident (as opposed to drive by) troll maneuvers.
I wondered if you were capable of a reasoned discussion. Now I see you for what and who you truly are…an empty suit.
I’m signing off.
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@Afrofem
Because your hypocrisy, lies and white supremacist ways were put on full blast….And Irish Americans’ crimes against humanity in America made your master feel uncomfortable.
@gro jo
And nothing you quoted proves any point you were trying to make, nor is it relevant to the topic. Get a life.
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@ Sharina
“Just as an FYI I don’t see slavery as the only reason blacks deserve reparations.”
YES! White people (as a collective) did not and do not have to contend with all/any/most of the mistreatment on that list. That’s why it’s so ridiculously laughable when they cry that other people are being racist against THEM. LOL
Racism was born from slavery – for Black people. So when slavery ended, the world would’ve looked quite different today had racism never got started.
Whites (back then) could have abandoned their rationalizations, stereotypes, violence and dislike for Black people after slavery ended. But that would have negated their being WHITE people ADVANTAGE.
Instead, they feared Black economic competition for jobs and used anything/everything available to justify their dislike, fear and supposed superiority and privilege while doing everything imaginable to hold us down.
“I like that you provided a list. Not sure if this counts, but fair wages.”
Lol… I copied and pasted that list into my comment. It’s from Abagond’s post, above. All I did was add “and much, much more.”
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@Fan…
“Lol… I copied and pasted that list into my comment. It’s from Abagond’s post, above. All I did was add “and much, much more.”—
ROFL. That just shows I didn’t read the post.
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You know what? some regular commentors to this blog are just so damn nasty. Why get personal? Why not just discuss and debate the subject at hand? It’s so boring ffs
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@Zoe Jordan
It happens, but this in here stems from other threads. I have been there and done that myself.
I would go into more details of my thoughts, but it would best put on open thread.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
How does Military budget! Execution budget! how does that work to provide reparations to black people?
Correct me if I am wrong, but many of your solutions lobby for all people rather than a long overdue amount of reparations to black people. Whites don’t need reparations nor do other groups who have received theirs.
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@LOM
Then I can agree that taking from those necessary expense are a good idea.
“That said, I believe primarily in a more general social welfare program, like in Scandinavia. That means for poor “whites” too.”—And this is where we would disagree. Not because I am against helping poor whites. Just that poor whites aren’t owed it.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Nothing I said about you was not already known by anyone who actually reads your racist comments and constant deflections from African Americans to the Irish. Calling out your racism and deflections is not slander, it’s truth.
And yes, my comment to you was on topic, but your response was not.
“You are trivializing slavery”
” teeter-totter on the brink of Nazi sympathizing and Holocaust denial, not to mention Irish Holocaust denial”
And when did that happen? Quote it. Prove you’re not a liar.
“I was saying that the money for slavery reparations could come from the military budget and the execution budget”
And you conveniently left out that you said, “that money would be siphoned to universal healthcare, job creation, and environmental cleanup as well”
See, nothing about reparations for African Americans, which is the subject of the UN report. Once again proving the deceitful snake you are.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“You trivialized slavery in the following comments”
Nothing you quoted proves from me proves any of the desperate arguments you’re making, nor are they relevant.
“We were all having an intelligent conversation until you came in to impugn entire ethnicities. ”
And that’s an example of a typical statement employed by white supremacists to deflect from the crimes their people as a group committed against other groups.
Stating a fact about crimes committed by Irish Americans as a group to African Americans as a group is not impugning anyone, it is telling history.
I don’t care that you don’t like that part of history. But it actually happened, and it had lasting effects on African Americans. And I have the right to demand reparations from Irish Americans for oppressing African Americans.
It’s no different than all the times you tell us about how the British committed atrocities against the Irish. And when you do that, does anyone ever tell you you’re impugning the British? No. Because that would be as irrational and racist as your argument.
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@LOM
“In historiography, the term historical revisionism identifies the re-interpretation of the historical record.”
You have done this and do this a lot. The reason why you were called a revisionist is not because of Nazi criticism (an assumption of yours alone), but because you mixed the sequence of events up. I respect that you owned up to it above, but you have got to stop with the false assumptions of why you got called those words because you are painting yourself as the victim. You made a mistake and got called on it. Simple.
Sometimes you have to step back and reread things for a clear pictures. Sometimes you got to stop allowing the background hype man to convince you more is being said than really it. I been there so I get it, but a lot of your fall out with res is you allowing him to goat you on simple stuff.
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goad*
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@sharinalr
“but you have got to stop with the false assumptions of why you got called those words because you are painting yourself as the victim.”
That’s a very polite way of saying he lied, being the deceitful degenerate he clearly is.
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@ resw
“Stating a fact about crimes committed by Irish Americans as a group to African Americans as a group is not impugning anyone, it is telling history.”
The only reason you brought it up was to bait Lord of Mirkwood, who had been more or less behaving himself in this thread until then. This is what Afrofem pointed out above.
“And I have the right to demand reparations from Irish Americans for oppressing African Americans.”
As a self-admitted non-American, you have no stake in the matter.
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@ Sharina
Making a mistake or not knowing about a certain facet of history does not equate to historical revisionism, which is a deliberate attempt to revise or reframe the historical narrative. One is an innocent mistake, the other purposeful.
Resw used anti-Jewish dog whistles in that thread and when called on it resorted to gaslighting (“It’s all in your imagination”). Plausible deniability, I suppose.
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@Solitaire
“The only reason you brought it up was to bait Lord of Mirkwood, who had been more or less behaving himself in this thread until then. ”
No surprise to see the fraudulent omniscient one further derailing things by telling me why I did something, as if it’s relevant. But you are wrong as usual.
And I don’t consider “behaving himself” to once again bring up “Ireland” on the first comment of the thread, as he does on nearly every thread that has to do with African Americans. You probably give him the benefit of the doubt because he says he’s white, but I don’t fall for his antics.
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@Solitaire
LOM claims to know history. He calls himself the history buff. So it was by no mistake that he did it, but I rather view it as such in hopes he does better. However, he never does and this is not the first and it won’t be his last.
“Resw used anti-Jewish dog whistles in that thread and when called on it resorted to gaslighting (“It’s all in your imagination”). Plausible deniability, I suppose.”—Do quote the anti-jewish dog whistles because I did not take anything he said to be any?
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And please do it on that thread. Thanks
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@sharinalr
It’s white supremacy in action. Start telling them their history as it really happened, and they get mad and start lying just like Solitaire did.
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Some of the type of reparations they could extend are the following:
Free post-secondary education, college, university up to post-graduate schools.
Income supplementation. For example, if you make 30,000 USD a year, your income would be supplemented by 30,000USD a year.
Free Trades school. Trades make a good income.
No income tax.
There are hundreds of way they can extend reparations, the above are but a small example.
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@ resw
“Start telling them their history as it really happened”
When did you do that? You think I’m Jewish?
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@ resw
“You probably give him the benefit of the doubt because he says he’s white”
You really haven’t been paying attention. Lord of Mirkwood has been claiming for some time now that he isn’t white and I’ve been telling him that he is.
Guess if you paid attention you wouldn’t feel free to read my mind and assign me motives.
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@Solitaire
“When did you do that?”
Prior to the when you lied.
“You think I’m Jewish?”
I don’t recall knowing or caring. My comment was about white supremacy, not anything else you’ve suddenly imagined. And yes, yes “Jewish” history is a part of white history.
“You really haven’t been paying attention.”
Right, I don’t pay much attention to you. I’m only engaging you because you have jumped in to derail once again by lying about me. But, Lord of Mirkwood has admitted to being Irish, and almost everyone in America in 2016 considers Irish to be white.
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@ Resw
“Prior to the when you lied.”
Please, that’s not at all helpful. It’s not even a coherent sentence. At one point exactly did you tell me some truth about my history which supposedly made me mad? What truth are you referring to?
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@Solitaire
“Please, that’s not at all helpful.”
I guess not when you lie as much as you do.
“It’s not even a coherent sentence.”
And you followed up with an incoherent sentence of your own. “At one point…” or “At WHAT point…”? For most it’s not hard to ignore a typo in a sentence, but clearly it is for you.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
All of yall have actually been engaging in ad hominems if you want to be honest. Reason? Do you mean excepting excuses?
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@Herneith
Those are good ideas. I guess I limited my ideas on how it can be spent. The possibilities are endless.
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@Herneith
Those are great ideas!
On a Black Agenda Report podcast I heard recently, Kamm Howard, of N-COBRA (The National Coalition of Blacks for Reparations in America) discussed the report by the United Nations panel. One thing he stressed is that only Black people themselves should determine the form of any reparations. It is not appropriate for institutions like Georgetown to make unilateral decisions about the form of reparations it wants to pay.
Moreover, Howard pointed out:
The podcast can be found here: (Howard is in the first segment of the show)
http://prn.fm/black-agenda-radio-10-10-16/
▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷▷
Another idea put forward by economics professor, Dr. William Darity is that of a universal endowment of all Americans automatically bestowed at birth. He refers to them as “Baby Bonds”. According to Dr. Darity,
https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/heres-what-economists-dont-understand-about-race?p=perspectives/blog/heres-what-economists-dont-understand-about-race
There are a lot of great ideas floating around. I agree with Kamm Howard that it is essential that Black people determine the form of any reparations.
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Folks, there are seemingly endless routes to extending reparation. It is telling that many of these white posters try to deflect the topic of reparations with such bull shite as; who will determine who pays?; my family are immigrants, why should I pay?;who will get reparations. The deflections in the name of ‘debate’, employed in these ‘debate’ are revealing and telling indeed. I for one am not interested in ‘debating’ these white people. That’s like debating with someone who committed a crime on you, unless you are mentally or emotionally ill, you don’t. I am more interested in coming up with ideas to effect reparations. We already know the whys no need to debate them. We should be discussing ideas.
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I forgot:
Repatriation for those American slaves’ descendants who were forced to flee. Give us American citizenship automatically.
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” Give us American citizenship automatically.”
WHAT?? You want to be an Amerikan??? lol
I know you love to shop, and Amerika has lots of variety, and sales but still…
You can have my citizenship. I’ll take your Canadian and another somewhere in Africa! African-Canadian may come off a lot better than African-Amerikan in some African countries!
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@ Afrofem
“Another idea put forward by economics professor, Dr. William Darity is that of a universal endowment of all Americans automatically bestowed at birth. He refers to them as ‘Baby Bonds’.”
That is an incredible idea! Thank you for sharing. It’s kind of like Social Security in reverse because it provides a safety net at the start of a child’s life that can affect the entire future course — the ability to afford college, for one.
It does seem, however, to focus only on class. Did Dr. Darity have specific suggestions that relate the Baby Bonds to race? That is, would a middle-class African American family qualify for a lower amount than a poor European American family? Or would there be an additional fund as a type of reparations?
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“I agree with Kamm Howard that it is essential that Black people determine the form of any reparations.”
This is nonsense, should some black people get reparation so that they can make a big order for fried chicken, malt liquor and garish, plastic covered furniture? If the money will be doled out for schools, health, etc. how is that different from regular social programs available to all citizens? What are the main problems that keep Blacks from enjoying full equality? How will reparations fix these problems? How long should reparations last? Reparations should go to people with track records as innovators, people like Lonnie Johnson, John Henry Thompson, Jesse Eugene Russell, Kwabena Boahen, Oshiorenoya Agabi and others of that caliber. Kids with the talents of an Esther Okade, Mabou Loiseau should get the support to develop their talents. resw will object that a number of the people I mentioned aren’t African-American, true, but so what? The slave trade was international in scope, so should reparations.
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@Herneith
To be honest, I am not sure why they don’t already have automatic citizenship.
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@Gro Jo
“how is that different from regular social programs available to all citizens?”—Good question. Perhaps looking at school demographics and putting it towards predominately Black, but even that is a coin toss.
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@ Herneith
How is it deflection to debate the eligibility to reparations on a thread on reparations? It is the most obvious (and first) problem with the issue. Anybody arguing in favor of it will have to sort out the concerns of the public first.
The question by which means the reparations should be administered semms rather minor comparatively. I’d prefer the direct payement of money or cheap access to loans. By that the recipiants could determine themselves how to best use the gained resources. Investing into education or other social measures seems a bit paternalistic.
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“Anybody arguing in favor of it will have to sort out the concerns of the public first.”
@Kartoffel
There are literally thousands of things the government/businesses does pertaining to $$$$s without sorting out the concerns of the public — ever.
I think what you’re saying is that anyone here in favor of reparations should sort out the concerns of Kartoffel first! Multiply that by several million white people and we have the typical WHITE concern/response about reparations paid to Black people.
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Well, I would have to hear the other several million concerns to dicide if they are qually valid. And as reparations couldn’t be passed without the support of a significant part of White America, there will be no other way than sort out their concerns (though nor mine).
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@Abagond
It would be very good if Abagond would write a post about the Zero Sum game as it relates to racism/white supremacy. Zero sum gain is why typical white people automatically resist the idea of reparations.
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“And as reparations couldn’t be passed without the support of a significant part of White America, there will be no other way than sort out their concerns (though nor mine).”
.
Lots of things are passed without the support of the people.
Exorbitant budgets for military aircraft that don’t work as intended.
Secret experiments performed on certain segments of the population.
Sending billions of cash dollars on pallets to Iraq and Iran.
Incorporating surveillance and spy software in consumer electronics,
and much, much, much more.
Where was all of this concern and sorting out during the horrors of Black Codes, Lynchings, Sundown Towns, Jim Crow, Criminal Injustice System/Corporate Complex, Stop & Frisk, Driving while Black and police murders of unarmed Black citizens?
Where is the voice/support of white Amerika when it comes to civil asset forfeiture laws?? Why are we not hearing from the people as cops are robbing blind anyone unfortunate to cross their path with significant amounts of cash on them? Or does this concern only materialize when it’s money going to Black people, as opposed to money robbed by men dressed in blue going only to men in blue uniforms?? (Cops stealing money legally for themselves)
Black people do not require white people to sort out or concern themselves with matters that pertain to ourselves. Tend to and concern yourselves to ending your racism.. that’s how we got here in the first place.
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Who is derailing now? What has anything of this to do with how technically and politically reparations would be achieved.
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Who’s derailing?? You’ve made your point. I’m making a counter-point to your point. That’s not derailing. That’s a debate!
Technically and politically the massive collective voice (approval) of WHITE people isn’t needed or required.
“Representative Republic” and all that … is what this gov’ment is supposed to be. Not mob rule. Not fascist rule.
This isn’t a democracy where the majority gets to dictate to the rest of the people. Congress often passes laws even without the knowledge or consent… The president makes laws by executive decrees. The Supreme court makes or breaks laws by virtue of their rulings. None of which have anything to do with the concern or consent of the people (or white people)!
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Of course you don’t need a majority of the people for every political measure. But you can’t pass a massive change against the dedicated support of a significant majority either. At the very least you would need to keep White Americans somewhat ok with the reparations. And the less just the measure would seem to them, the less they will be.
Of course the White Americans who don’t think that anything significantly wrong happened to Black Americans will never agree to it anyway. But for the others the technical details how it would be administered, could very well be decisive for their active support or at least their tolerance of it.
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“… White Americans who don’t think that anything significantly wrong happened to Black Americans will never agree to it anyway. But for the others the technical details how it would be administered, could very well be decisive for their active support or at least their tolerance of it.”
An analogy:
This is on par with going into a prison and asking the convicted guilty (white people) to weigh-in on how long their sentences should be. And, how much of the stolen money, lost lives, inheritances disappeared should be recovered. Which victims should get a return? How should that be determined?
REPARATIONS JUDGE: Whadya cons think? How should you pay for your crimes against humanity??
Are you telling me that an honest judge is going to listen to or be swayed by the feelings and concerns of a bunch of crooks??
The conscious law abiding folks would tell the crooks to go kick rocks, or break them. So why shouldn’t white people go kick rocks – and then take several seats re reparations??
Let them handle their own “technical details” of the money stolen (or benefits gathered) from being privileged white beneficiaries of Black suffering. I say again, white people at large should have no say on the details concerning reparations.
I realize I’m not going to change your mind. And you’re certainly not going to change mine. That’s not how debates, as I understand them, work.
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do you think african americans would accept such a proposal as reparations/settlement with the citizens for the general bs involved in american daily life? in general, to say if this was across the board and included americans, native americans, territorial residents, etc?
i think white people in general would be against it on gp due to the obvious exclusive nature of the obviously historically correct argument of reparations.
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@Fan..
That is an excellent analogy of the situations and why I feel white voices should be minimal in the decisions of how reparations should be spent.
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@ Sharina
Thank you.
.
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@Herneith
“Repatriation for those American slaves’ descendants who were forced to flee. Give us American citizenship automatically.”
That is a novel demand. Would you want repatriation for practical or symbolic purposes?
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@Solitaire
Did Dr. Darity have specific suggestions that relate the Baby Bonds to race?
The article’s author, Lynn Parramore did not explore how Baby Bonds could be structured to take race into account. She focuses on his ideas that don’t involve race based reparations such as Baby Bonds and a Federal job guarantee. That seems to be her way of selling his ideas. This quote is typical:
I suspect his agenda is more focused on race based remedies. In fact, the article mentions that, “Darity and his wife, Kirsten Mullen, are currently completing a book that details how a reparations program might be executed, due to hit the shelves by mid-2017”.
https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/heres-what-economists-dont-understand-about-race?p=perspectives/blog/heres-what-economists-dont-understand-about-race
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@gro jo
“If the money will be doled out for schools, health, etc. how is that different from regular social programs available to all citizens? What are the main problems that keep Blacks from enjoying full equality? How will reparations fix these problems? How long should reparations last?”
Those are four good questions. What are your thoughts?
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@ Afrofem
Sorry, I was on my cell phone earlier and couldn’t bring that article up. Some links work, others crash my browser…
It will be interesting to see what all the book proposes.
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@gro jo
“The slave trade was international in scope, so should reparations.”
I agree with that observation. Comprehensive reparations for African slavery would take into account not only the European trans-Atlantic theft of humans but also the Arab theft of humans from Northwest Africa, East Africa and as far into the interior as the Congo region.
Some African nations are independently pursuing state to state reparations from European countries for the devastation of slavery and later, colonialism.
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@v8driver
“i think white people in general would be against it on gp [general principles] due to the obvious exclusive nature of… reparations.”
White people would be against reparations because it would give a long denied advantage to a group they have been trained to believe deserve degradation solely because of the color of their skins. Many White people base their whole sense of identity and well-being on the phrase, “well at least I’m not Black”.
That is in addition to the ferocious nature of intergroup competition in this country. Various American ethnic groups are constantly jockeying for position in a pyramidal society that only has room for a few at the top——and unlimited space at the bottom.
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@Solitaire
See if this truncated link will work for you:
https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/heres-what-economists-dont-understand-about-race?p=perspectives/blog/
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@ Afrofem
Thanks for the link. What I meant though was more that I was embarrassed when I realized that you were answering my question by pulling quotes from the article which you’d linked to originally. I should have read the article before asking you and not caused you the trouble.
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“Those are four good questions. What are your thoughts?”
I stated them in the rest of the comment. Let me rephrase them. The Darity Federal jobs you introduced on open thread along with support for blacks who show talent to explore new fields would prevent waste and potentially result in benefits for all.
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@afrofem yes but if ahab truly harpooned the giant whale…
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That is a novel demand. Would you want repatriation for practical or symbolic purposes?
Purely symbolic. We are allowed dual citizenship as I believe the States does.
@Fan:
Purely for the shopping darl! Shop til you drop, hahahaha!!! Sorry, gaseous anomalies!
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@v8driver
Yes. The sword of consequences is double-edged.
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@gro jo
“…support for blacks who show talent to explore new fields would prevent waste and potentially result in benefits for all.”
Sounds good, but how many average, talentless and downright mediocre Euro Americans have you encountered in your working life? People for whom White Privilege has allowed them the full enjoyment of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, whatever that means to them.
I think reparations should be based on remedying group harm and not just a leg up for “talented” individuals. When the group thrives, the “talented” will rise like cream anyway.
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@ Fan
Your comparison doesn’t hold up because reparations are a political, not a legal issue. No court could decide on reparations without a law passed first (at least I hope not in a nation of laws).
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@Herneith
“It is telling that many of these white posters try to deflect the topic of reparations with such bull shite as; who will determine who pays?; my family are immigrants, why should I pay?;who will get reparations”
Exactly, and it’s not just white posters but those who claim to be black like Afrofem. It’s the typical racist tactics we always see whenever you talk about reparations and crimes/oppression committed by whites as a group. No surprise.
“Repatriation for those American slaves’ descendants who were forced to flee. Give us American citizenship automatically.”
Agreed as to Afro Canadians. Same goes to those who fled elsewhere like the Bahamas, Liberia, etc.
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“Sounds good, but how many average, talentless and downright mediocre Euro Americans have you encountered in your working life?” Lots, but in your opinion, why do you think that they get automatic credit for competence? I’ll hazard the guess that’s because everybody has heard of Newton, Gauss, Einstein, Tesla, Edison, etc. You and I disagree on what White Privilege means, it makes no sense to me for you to throw it at me expecting me to understand what you mean by it. Is it unreasonable to give whites credit for competence when everybody has heard of the great deeds of their men of genius? I think not.
“I think reparations should be based on remedying group harm and not just a leg up for “talented” individuals.”
State what the group harm is and how reparations will remedy it.
In this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQsf-qBjuGY), Lonnie Johnson bragged that his lithium air battery could power an electric car giving it a 1,000 mile range if he had the finance to scale it up. I don’t know about you, but such feat seems to me worthwhile to fund even if it doesn’t accomplish the stated goal..
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@ Kartoffel
One of the roles of the U.S. Supreme Court is to interpret the laws and establish legal precedent. If someone took a legal case suing for reparations all the way to the Supreme Court and the Court ruled in the plaintant’s favor, then yes, it could happen.
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*plaintiff’s
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@ Kartoffel
Although going back and reading Fan’s comment, I see that wasn’t really the topic. However, in my opinion Fan’s analogy holds up quite well.
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@Kartoffel
You read like a tired white racist judge who would present ANY argument to the court record (peppered with very weak pseudo-legal grounds) on why he’s about to dismiss the claimants petition for reparations. I will guess that this tactic has been long employed in the collective white meme.
The US may be a nation of laws (or supposed to be) but any thinking, breathing, remotely aware, person can see that these laws are selectively enforced. Case in point: the Clintons!
“No court could decide on reparations without a law passed first.”
That’s utter nonsense! Surely you can do better! Is someone else giving you these silly weak points, or are they coming solely from you??
Show me a law which exactly states: coffee above a certain temperature spilled on a woman’s lap in a McDonald’s will gain the injured woman several thousands of dollars. There isn’t such a law! That’s why there’s such a thing in the US called Civil Court where the injured and/or wronged party can take their grievances/claims to a Civil Court judge or jury to decide if a case has merit, if so go forward, sue for damages, pain and suffering, and so forth.
Sadly, there’s no law that states: it is illegal for the police to murder unarmed people, but whenever they do, they usually get away with it. Then the city or state (in or out of civil court) pays the families for their loss, pain & suffering, and whatnot.
I’m growing tired of slapping down your paltry attempts to justify white interference with Blacks seeking racial justice. I’ve got better things to do than correct every single misguided assumption you present.
Do you have any new nano-nits you want to try to pick at, or are you done??
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@Mirky.
My Mammy is over from Ireland at the moment, I asked her if she thinks Ireland is owed reparations and she said ‘no’, she said the situations of African Americans and The Irish bear no resemblance to each other in any way. You better believe, if she says it then it’s true! Even my brother believes no reparations are due and he’s one of the few who still hates the British even tho he’s part English himself!!
***************************************************************************
Perhaps the case for reparations should be taken out of the hands of America and all the countries that participated in the kidnapping of Africans to become slaves altogether. In the case of America if it went to supreme court and was denied what happens then? How likely is it to be passed if the whole system is racist and the top of the tier is surely the most racist of all.
The UN would make a rational decision on how much, by whom and how. Then the problem is how to enforce the decision.
However, reparations on their own mean nothing – ‘ Here you go black people, here’s $XXXXX to put into your (Fill in the gap)community project/education program/personal bank account , so that you can sort out your problems yourselves and we can carry on treating you with inequality like we always have and always will. The money will eventually be gone and you will be back to square one
So going back to my first comment a statement of apology.A humble one but ONLY with an amendment to complete equality.- tbh I don’t see that happening anytime soon tho.
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“Here you go black people, here’s $XXXXX to put into your (Fill in the gap)community project/education program/personal bank account , so that you can sort out your problems yourselves and we can carry on treating you with inequality like we always have and always will. The money will eventually be gone and you will be back to square one”
@Zoe
How could you possibly know that the money will eventually be gone and Black recipients would be back to square one??
Is all the money/businesses whites accumulated from unpaid slave labor gone? Hasn’t much of it been invested and/or passed down from generation to generation??
Are all the white people/white families that have been (unjustly) enriched by slavery, jim crow, discrimination, etc, etc, etc, back to square one????
The answer is no. So why are you stating that it will be different for Black people??
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@Fan
Because The racism won’t just go away. Because you will still be treated like lower class citizens. because a one off payment can’t last forever. Money on it’s own won’t make changes that last forever. The total sum of the accumulated money from generations of unpaid slave labour is more than America and Europe combined could possibly afford to pay you back.
‘Are all the white people/white families that have been (unjustly) enriched by slavery, jim crow, discrimination, etc, etc, etc, back to square one????’
No because they still have control, not community projects or schools or a few quid in their pockets but googleplex trillions of $ corporations and syndicates, they own the banks, the government, the military, Everything and they are white and want the top tier to stay that way. They could pay vast amounts of reparations and it wouldn’t make a drop of difference to their bank accounts. But a little reparation isn’t going to change their inbred belief that you are not as valid as they are because they have made the decision that they don’t wan’t you to be. If the world made a fuss and said you should be paid, they would pay you in order to appear to care and feel remorse but what they don’t want is to admit to themselves that you are equal. So yes, I get you want money. I believe you deserve trillions but you deserve to be recognised as equal human beings whose whole culture and life was destroyed by those people and their families for centuries. Reparations for the past and amendments for your children and grandchildren and their children until America (and Britain)look back on the days of racial discrimination with disbelief and incomprehension. And white people vomit with shame at the idea that their ancestors enslaved people.
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@Zoe Jordan
In all honesty I don’t care about white racist changing their tune. I need blacks to change theirs and put that money into black businesses. Whites will always be racist because they learn it generation after generation. However their fear is black independence, intelligence, and economic freedom.
Reparations is just an investment of owed money into our independence and their one way ticket to the psych ward
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@Mirky,
You can research it or you can live it. You research a place some of your distant ancestors came from. My family live it every day. You’re not Irish hun, you’re American. Is your passport Irish? no. There’s no Anglophilic self hate going on in Ireland. Where have you seen that? O yeah, that’s right you haven’t because you’ve never been there. You live some wild-man of Free Derry dream but it doesn’t exist. Your Ireland just doesn’t exist.
Cormac Ó Bruic wasn’t fired, he chose to leave. It’s shameful that his boss had a problem with him being Gaeltacht but he didn’t sack him for it.
‘… the Republic of Ireland – is a country where a Garda can arrest you for conducting police-related business and Irish’ Sorry, I don’t understand this sentence.
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LOM
How is Fan attacking her? He brought up a valid point. Just because it is not sugar coated doesn’t make it less so.
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@Zoe,
I see you shifting goal posts. First it was about the money being gone. Now it’s about this nonsense about not being equal or as valid as white people.
I’m discussing reparations as in payment (of some form) for long term racism and some of the suffering it has wrought upon Black people. How long that money lasts, what is done with it, where it is used, where it is spent is not any white person’s concern!
I could care less if white people remain racist.. as long as Blacks receive the fair due compensation for the crimes committed against Black people. I could also care less about an apology, even if was sincere.
Being recognized as an equal human being by white people isn’t my priority. Are you telling Black people what our priority ought to be??
“And white people vomit with shame at the idea that their ancestors enslaved people.”
Do they?? Then why are these shameful white people still holding on so strongly to the benefits, privileges and advantages of whiteness??
Why are the overwhelming majority of white people still racist – even as they “vomit with shame??”
@ Everyone
I’m beginning to SEE a virtually universal and incredibly STRONG white RESISTANCE to Black reparations that extends well beyond being a conundrum. And it’s not just white people as evidenced by an Asian regular poster (on the Coats reparation thread) who’s been MIA here of late.
Seemingly, every other non-Black person has a bunch of reasons or excuses why reparations won’t work or shouldn’t be given to Black people. But other groups or people can receive some kind of reparations. Just not Black people.
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@everyone
1. White people won’t ever stop being white. What would they have left if they ever gave that up?
2. White people would rather die first (or kill Black people) than see Black people receive JUSTICE.
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“How is Fan attacking her? He brought up a valid point. Just because it is not sugar coated doesn’t make it less so.”
@ Sharina
I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with that disingenuous chump! All he’s here to do in plug in the word ireland or irish as many times as he thinks he can get away with on a topic about “UN report on Black ….”
Do a Ctrl f if you can and see how many times the “i” word comes up!
This clown really is pathetic.
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@Fan..
White people are resistant to anything. It amazes me that a group of people that have literally stolen, killed, etc. across centuries have the nerve to envision what they are entitled to when it comes to black or brown people.
As to LOM, he is just another white person clinging to a culture that is not his.
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Fan
Firstly, I think you may have misread me. I was taking about an imagined future where white people vomit with shame, I know this is far from reality.
I have no resistance to reparations, the opposite in fact – You are undoubtedly owed a lot of money.
I’m not saying you are not equal or valid, you are, definitely. I said It doesn’t suit the ancestors of those who benefited from free slave labour to see black people as so. Believe me, I am not from that class, I come from the bottom of the pyramid.Sadly for me!
whether reparations ‘work’ or not is irrelevant, they just need to be paid. I just think on there own its pointless unless we all want to sit here for the next 100 years and watch innocent black people murdered by the police on a practically weekly basis. How can JUST money be enough? Whats the point of compensation if the crimes continue. That doesn’t make sense. And yes your right, It is not the business of any white person where the money goes.
I compare it to this; When I was a child my Dad battered me constantly. In my 20’s I was a damaged girl and turned to drugs. It took years for me to recover and then to be able to work. My Father could have compensated me financially it would have helped a lot but it wouldn’t have been enough. I needed acknowledgment of what happened not the denial he gave me.
I feel whatever I say is going to get your, and some other commenters, backs up at this stage and that’s not my intention at all. So to be clear. Yes, African Americans are owed reparations. How they are spent Is only the concern of African Americans.I have never said they shouldn’t be given only that imo on its own money is not enough.
Please don’t see hate or resistance where there is none. x
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@Zoe
All I see from the whites (except Solitaire) that have volunteered an input on this thread IS resistance. The push back is plain as day. I see it as over-the-top. AND I better understand why so many other Black folks, like Sondis for example, refuse to ever engage white people in these types of discussions. It’s like banging one’s head against the wall! It’s less than pointless. Perhaps .5% (that’s POINT FIVE, a half of one percent) get it. The rest of whites are too racist, too far immersed in their whiteness, too lost in their programming to recover their humanity – that’s if they were ever fully human to begin with. Cracks in your souls – as Abagond has posted about -rightly describes this condition. It is an apt depiction.
1. First – you said if YOU were Black, all you’d want is an apology.
2. Then you said if reparations were paid, the money would soon be gone and Blacks would be back to square one.
3. “Whats the point of compensation if the crimes continue.”
Do you need me to unpack number 3, or can you break down what you’re really saying, for yourself?
Yes, your position(s) are quite clear. 4. “imo on its own money is not enough”
You’re just all over the map, aren’t you!!
Just give us what JUSTICE demands. Whether it’s enough or NOT is not YOUR concern!
White people will shuck and jive. Do triple back somersaults with a half turn twist and rebound into … They will do incredible mental gymnastics to avoid doing what’s right. They can justify anything. Except paying reparations to Black people.
This is just a debate on a blog, nonetheless the attitudes demonstrated here (one-hundred percent) in this debate/discussion mirror these same issues in the real world.
Those Black folks that will be charged with the real world responsibility to discuss reparations with white people should know that 99.5% of the time they will be dealing with extraordinary resistance! It will be like talking to a wall, but worse. It will be a wall that speaks with a “forked tongue.”
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Folks, don’t even bother ‘debating’ white people or white-identified racialized people. It’s a waste of time. Suggestions in regards to reparations, please. Ignore them.
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” It’s a waste of time.”
Thank you. You’re ab-so-lute-ly correct. Instead of trying to reason with these people, I could be doing far more productive/useful things, like watching floor wax dry, or ice melt!
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I can see that this is a discussion that I shouldn’t have involved myself in. I know nothing about the reparations African Americans are owed, it isn’t my business and it isn’t my fight.
My apologies to anyone who has been offended by any one of my comments. I hope you have what you deserve soon.
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@ Zoe Jordan
To get a concrete example, read up on the Supreme Court decision in 1980 concerning the Sioux Nation’s claim to the Black Hills.
The short version: the justices found in favor of the Sioux claim that the Black Hills had been taken from them in violation of their treaty rights. But the justices decided proper compensation should be in a lump monetary sum.
But one of the reasons for the lawsuit is that those hills are sacred to the Native Americans. They don’t want the money. They want their land back. The U.S . government has been trying to force them to accept the money, and they’ve refused to touch it.
This is why POC need to be the ones who determine what is just recompense for the injustices and wrongs committed against them.
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Of course Solitaire is wrong (as usual) about the Supreme Court with regard to reparations for African Americans. There has indeed been at least one petition to the Court to appeal a lower court’s adverse decision of a class action suit on behalf of descendants African American slaves against numerous American companies. And the Supreme Court rejected the petition on grounds that this was a “political” matter.
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@gro jo
“You and I disagree on what White Privilege means, it makes no sense to me for you to throw it at me expecting me to understand what you mean by it.”
You made that comment upthread on 10-26-16.
On 10-18-16 I discussed Chauncey DeVega’s definition of White Privilege:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/open-thread-8/#comment-353405
On 10-20-16, I discussed Peggy McIntosh’s seminal 1989 essay on White Privilege:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-353515
In addition, Abagond has written two excellent articles on White Privilege that are congruent with my understanding about White Privilege:
https://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/tumblr_lcx2isabxx1qf6jsyo1_500.jpg?w=400&h=400
Those four articles encapsulate what I mean by White Privilege.
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Afrofem, we beat that dead horse long enough. I’m not interested in what Abagond, DeVega or McIntosh have to say on the subject. I reject the notion that the treatment of the majority is a privilege. I call it the norm.
Most drivers are obliged to follow traffic rules, that’s the norm, the President’s motorcade is exempt, from these rules, that’s a privilege. The fifth panel labeled how Bob got through his teens shows a violation of the norm since the black girl is arrested but not Bob. Bob didn’t get a privilege, but the girl was discriminated against because she wasn’t treated in the usual manner. End of story. Bob is a plebeian, as such he gets no privilege, just rights. The girl had her rights violated. She and others like her should struggle for equal rights.
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@gro jo
“I reject the notion that the treatment of the majority is a privilege.”
I heartily disagree with that reasoning.
I think we will have to agree to disagree.
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“I heartily disagree with that reasoning.
I think we will have to agree to disagree.”
Fine by me. We already agreed to disagree on this subject, so I don’t know why you chose to bring it up again. Where you see “privilege”, I see discrimination.
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