Peter Liang (c. 1987- ) was the New York City police officer who shot dead Akai Gurley in a dark stairwell in Brooklyn on November 20th 2014. Gurley was Black and unarmed, father of three. Liang is Asian American, a police officer with only 18 months’ experience.
On February 11th 2016, Liang was found guilty of manslaughter – and fired. Shaun Landau, his (White) partner, got off by turning state’s witness.
From 1999 to 2015, the NYPD killed at least 188 people. In only four cases – Amadou Diallo, Ousmane Zongo, Sean Bell and Akai Gurley – was anyone charged with a crime. In only two cases – Zongo and Gurley – were they found guilty. No one, so far, has served a single day in prison. Zongo’s killer, a White officer named Bryan Conroy, got five years’ probation.
Liang will be sentenced on April 14th. He could get 0 to 15 years in prison.
Most public prosecutors in the US are White. They commonly win elections by being “tough on crime” by locking up Black and Brown men, many of them innocent. To do this they need the help of the police and therefore turn a blind eye to police killings. In Brooklyn, though, the public prosecutor, Ken Thompson, is Black. He believes in restoring justice by restoring trust in the police and the courts – much like Marilyn Mosby in Baltimore.
On November 20th 2014, Liang and Landau, both inexperienced officers, were inside the Louis H. Pink Houses in East New York, Brooklyn, going floor to floor. It had been the scene of two homicides in the past year.
When they entered the dark stairwell on the eighth floor, Landau took out his flashlight, while Liang took out both his flashlight and his gun.
Police policy in a case like that is to only pull out your gun if there is a known threat, because otherwise innocent people wind up getting killed, like Timothy Stansbury in 2004.
Liang took out his gun anyway – because of he was afraid, as he would later tearfully tell the court. His finger was on the trigger. Gurley and his girlfriend enter the stairwell on the seventh floor. Liang, surprised by the sound, shoots into the dark, hitting Gurley in the chest.
Gurley’s girlfriend was screaming. “He’s not breathing!” She was knocking on doors, crying, her hands in blood, asking for help, asking for towels – there was so much blood. She performed CPR wanting to save Gurley’s life.
Liang and Landau, meanwhile, were arguing about who should call. Liang called – the police union. He was afraid of getting fired. Then he called his commanding officer, telling him about his gun going off, but not about Gurley.
His commanding officer knew of the shooting because a neighbour had called 911, but he did not know that the shooter was Liang. He had been trying to reach Liang and Landau, knowing that they were nearby.
Four minutes have now passed. Unlike Gurley’s girlfriend, they are trained in CPR. They go to him – and walk round him to go to the fourth floor.
– Abagond, 2016.
Update (March 30th): Sentencing is next month. There have been nationwide protests in favour of Liang. The judge, Danny Chun, is Korean American. Liang could get up to 15 years. Ken Thompson, though, is now saying Liang should get NO prison time! Thompson might be getting heat from the police union. More.
Update (April 19th): Liang was sentenced to five years probation: no prison time. Moments before sentencing, Judge Chun reduced the charge from manslaughter to criminally negligent homicide. More.
See also:
- Michael Wood – on fearful, non-empathetic police officers
- Other police officers who do not belong to the White club:
- The extremely incomplete list of unarmed Blacks killed by police
- NYPD
- Black Brute stereotype
- Whites who fear blacks are racist
- Marilyn Mosby – *swoon*
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Black lives don’t matter when it’s about keeping your it job whether your a cop who did something criminal or a DA running on “crime”.
Hopefully this Black DA wil see things differently
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He was convicted of manslaughter and is facing jail time now–not a lot, mind you, but at least he is facing some modicum of justice. Hey, Abagond, do you think that Liang would be free right not if he were white?
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First and foremost, my heart goes out to the family of Akai Gurley, this young man should not have been shot dead for any apparent reason under the circumstances that transpired. Secondly, to all of you cooning, booty licking, genuflecting, groveling minority cops, allow this case to be a wakeup call.
Had this been two cops blessed (or cursed) with white skin, Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association (PBA) of the City of New York and the administration would’ve been jumping through fire laced hoops to explain why Gurley is dead. This includes the possibility of planting of a weapon to justify their action that resulted in an unjustified and unnecessary death.
Flash back to when Officer Pantaleo choked Eric Garner to death approximately 18 months ago. PBA union President Pat Lynch went all out trying to convince people that Officer Pantaleo was justified in the murdering of Eric Garner. In short, I don’t see him making appearances on CNN trying to save Officer Liang from spending a little time in jail for manslaughter. Perhaps his skin isn’t white enough!
By the way, black Prosecutor Ken Thompson cannot do sh^t!
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“Hey, Abagond, do you think that Liang would be free right not if he were white?”
The answer to your question is found here: “From 1999 to 2015, the NYPD killed at least 188 people. In only four cases – Amadou Diallo, Ousmane Zongo, Sean Bell and Akai Gurley – was anyone charged with a crime. In only two cases – Zongo and Gurley – were they found guilty. No one, so far, has served a single day in prison. Zongo’s killer, a White officer named Bryan Conroy, got five years’ probation.”
This post skirts dealing with the reaction of a substantial section of the Chinese-American community, who are outraged that their boy didn’t get the same courtesy white cops get routinely in such cases. They even claim that prosecuting Liang was discriminatory, and because the DA is black. Sounds like a blatant demand for “Asian privilege” to me. The fact that he and his partner did nothing to help Akai Gurley makes not the slightest impression on Liang’s supporters.
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@Jabari Jones
That is an extremely interesting question that I do not know the answer to.
Some, like blakksage, say that the police union’s defence of him was half-hearted. But, from what I read, there was no clear proof of that. They seemed just as morally blind as they always are in police killings.
On the one hand, the only officer to get in trouble for Eric Garner’s death was not any of the White officers who actually killed him, but Kizzy Adonis, a Black commanding officer at the scene. She SHOULD get in trouble, but why only her? It seems the NYPD wanted a non-White scapegoat.
On the other hand, the only other NYPD officer to be convicted in the past 15 or so years was White, Bryan Conroy.
Such events are so rare that there is no clear pattern. Maybe in a few years there will be – like if Ken Thompson has a string of convictions, but they are mostly against non-White officers.
When I first heard about this, I was glad, thinking that maybe it was a new day because of Black Lives Matter, etc. But when I saw that Liang was not White my heart sank.
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Here is an interesting link written by Frank Wu about this case, :http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-h-wu/peter-liang-an-asian-amer_b_9225996.html
I know there are attempts to organize for this case but I am not sure how much support he will get.
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Abagond: Thanks for responding to my question
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Massive?
http://nypost.com/2016/02/20/10000-protesters-rallying-in-support-of-ex-cop-peter-liang/
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Frank Wu from vanishingpoint’s link:
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Abagond, I spoke about this topic with Jefe and GroJo on one of your Asian American threads.
I’m going to repost my threads here (now that you have a true location for it”:
Linda @ Jefe,
“not sure where to put this, so I am putting this here.
the cop in NY Peter Liang has been found guilty for the shooting of Akai Gurley.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/former-nypd-cop-peter-liang-s-guilty-verdict-leaves-community-n518056
Has it made the news in Hong Kong, mainland China, or anywhere else in Asia?
The Asian community in New York seems surprised and I don’t know why– I knew he was going to be found guilty
because, like Kizzy Adonis, Peter was not going to escape “punishment” because the blue shield is not there for him
Do you think that Asian Americans have finally noticed that they are getting their “n*^ger wake up call” from white America
or are they still sleeping?”
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“gro jo @Linda,
I know that your question was addressed to jefe, but I’m pretty certain that Asian Americans will not notice, because, after all, they are not “n*^ger”s.
A number of them felt that this cop should have been protected like the white cops in the Garner case! They practice selective amnesia. They forget the treatments meted out to Vincent Chin, Wen Ho Lee and others. You might find these articles of interest:
http://atimes.com/2015/10/racial-profiling-of-chinese-american-scientists-never-ends/
Ethnic identities are resistant to facts, because they are programs for survival.”
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“jefe@ Linda,
Thanks for the heads up.
I did not see it covered in the mainstream news in HK. After seeing your note, I did searches for both English and Chinese media and only found one English article (in the South China Morning Post) and one Chinese article (online website). I could not find it in any of the anti-establishment media sites in HK in either language (but I did find one in Taiwan).
This might seem odd as Peter Liang was in fact born in HK and moved to New York as a young child.
To be fair, HK has been recovering from a violent police crackdown over street hawkers last week during the New Year holiday. The conviction of Peter Liang might not register on their radar screens.
The NYPD is a white racist club. Always has been. So not surprised black and Asian police officers will take the fall for them.
What has occurred in the USA is a severe case of amnesia about Asian American history. Even Vincent Chin’s slaying occurred over 30 years ago, which is the ancient past in the white American teflon version of history, the version that young Asian Americans learn.
I really think Asian American studies need to be part of the curriculum, for all Americans really, but especially for young Asian Americans. This event does not have quite the impact of the Vincent Chin case, so I doubt the “wake-up” will be more than ephemeral. Post-80s Asian Americans might not even make the connection.”
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@ Linda
Good idea. Thanks.
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Linda@ GroJo
I see you… but as you and I well know… it doesn’t matter what colour you are, to white America, “if it’s not white, it ain’t right” — that’s why they’re all dazed and confused that Peter Liang got convicted.
I think it’s mainly immigrant Asian Americans, that pat on the head that they got from white America, causes them to miss the smoke signals and messages
this younger generation of Asian Americans seem to be waking up and recognizing the signs for what they are
There is a group called CAAAV Organizing Asian Communites, that is calling Peter Liang to be prosecuted and they also want white policemen to held accountable too:
This group formed in order to represent low-income Asian Americans and refugees in NY City. They see themselves as natural allies with the Black Lives Matter movement and they are taking a lot of sh’t for it.
Here is part of their memo about concerning Peter Liang:
http://caaav.org/caaav-statement-to-asian-and-asian-american-communities-on-the-murder-of-akai-gurley-by-nypd-officer-peter-liang
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Linda@ Jefe,
What’s sort of pis$ing me off about the whole situation is that, once again, there is now a divide caused by this case.
Somehow the Asian community in NY believes it’s black peoples fault that Peter was found guilty by a jury.
There is a group, Chinese Action Network (CAN) that supports Peter Liang and they are calling the black DA Ken Thompson a “racist” and they want to support a candidate to run against him.
here’s their facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FreePeterLiang
They are taking the playbook straight from white American racists and playing into the same “okie dokie, we’re the better minority” game.
The comments on the facebook are interesting, I wonder how many of them are actually Asian or white nationalist trying to stoke the flames?
NY police department would love to get rid of Ken Thompson, he’s a pain in their a’s because he actually does his job and prosecutes policemen. He did the Abner Louima case
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/kenneth-thompson-conviction-review-unit-brooklyn
So, if Chinese activist believe they can get rid of Kenneth Thompson easily, then they are in for a surprise (I think, not sure how is viewed in general)
instead of recognizing that Peter was scapegoated because the white supremacist institution that he worked for, is f’cked up – they want to focus their energy in the wrong direction.
His white partner would have gotten off scott free but Akai Gurley’s family pushed for him to be fired.
Who does Kizzy Adonis get to blame for her getting fired and prosecuted for Eric Garners death, while the white policemen who killed him are home free and expecting pay raises and their large a’s pensions!
What is it going to take for these sleeping sheep to wake up and realize that once again, they are being used as tools– it’s not about black people– it’s really between Asians and white America
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jefe @Linda,
There must be some people in the white establishment lapping this up. They managed to split the Asian-American community apart on this, as well as been blacks and Asians.
Neat trick.
I really don’t know when enough Asian Americans will finally wake up to realize how they are being used and abused to enforce the racial hierarchical system in the USA.
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No problems Abagond.
Question: How does the black community in Brooklyn feel about Ken Thompson? or in general, NY
Will they support him next election or do you think the Chinese Action Network group will succeed?
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Pumpkin, where are you traveling,if you don’t mind my asking? Safe Travels!
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I will only speak for myself as an Asian Canadian, but I always felt there was there were plenty of Asians kissing up to white people. I knew early on that people of colour were being pitted against each other and some fools were willing to to play up to Whites. My wise mother told me repeatedly (God rest her soul) that White people can get away with things people of colour cannot. What happened to Officer Peter Liang was not a surprise at all.
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I read somewhere that some of the protesters came from across the country, or from around the east coast. The good thing was they were met with counter protests.
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What? Not one word from our resident ironist, my friend and yours, our beloved little Mr. Irony? He must be too busy organizing rallies such as this.
(http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-rally-nyc-around-us-over-officers-conviction-210615652.html?nf=1)
Does anyone recall if as much fuss was made over the leniency shown the murderers of Vincent Chin? Are we witnessing an outburst of Chinese Negrophobia? Where, oh where is our resident ‘expert’ on all things ‘Asian’ to lift the scales from our eyes?
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Little Mr. Irony,
Glad to “hear” your voice. Now explain why this verdict is a bigger outrage than the Vincent Chin one?
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@ Pumpkin
Yes. Safe travels.
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Asians pointing out the double standard in NUMBERS.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/02/20/peter-liang-rally-nyc/
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I took the time to read the NY Times article that someone linked on this page. I read some of the reactions and comments on the page and boy, they are quite interesting. I likened Liang supporters to the dimwitted ladies who would send love letters to convicted murders hoping for some good vitamin D.
Anyway, I think there is a lot of willful ignorance and some anti black resentment coming from those who see Liang as an scapegoat. BTW, Ken Thompson is not afraid to hurt the sensibilities of the NYPD. When he became a DA, he told the NYPD to stop arresting people who posses small amounts of weed because it’s clogging the system. They didn’t take his words kindly. And it didn’t stop the PBA president, The Howling Monkey aka Patrick Lynch from telling Thompson that he was wrong. I just like to say Patrick Lynch needs a haircut like I need a drink especially after reading some of the statements of Liang supporters.
My mind is going crazy here. I want to unleash a tirade on these fools who are hanging their hat on this bumbling ex cop all because they are too stupid to know the difference between manslaughter and murder and are too blinded by their own bigotry to inform themselves on the facts of the case but I’ll pass. A jury didn’t convict an innocent man. He is not a scapegoat. He is paying for his negligence. He did not act professionally before and after the shooting. He was convicted based on the merits of the case, not this cockamamie nonsense these fools claim was a miscarriage of justice on Liang’s part. It wasn’t a case of friendly fire. This is very insulting and disrespectful to the family of Akia Gurley. What the fuck is wrong with these people?
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with these people? This is what happens when people allow racial groupthink to take over logic.
This is one of the most mind boggling things I’ve ever seen. I can understand why the PBA and other police unions would support him but c’mon.
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I can see both sides of this. He is being used by the police department as a scape goat. But I don’t believe that is the true reason for the protests by the Asian groups. If equality was such a hot issue with the Asian community, there would have been more Asians involved in other civil rights protests. Yet they tend to be quiet in most cases, I think, because they don’t see it as their problem. My guess is they expected more support than they got from the City based on the way the other police shooting cases were handled. I think their reaction is more about getting pulled into the white vs black dichotomy when they felt they were above it. Their message is wrong. If they are truly about equality they would directly point out the disparity between charges against white cops shooting unarmed civilians and charges against cops of other races. But so far their protest seems to be a mix of NYPD should share the blame and the manslaughter charge was too much. It’s like they want the equal right to kill.
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@ Anne
Well, bear in mind that the Asian percentage of the U.S. population was MUCh smaller in the 1960s, so Asians who participated in the Civil Rights movement would be far less visible, due to a simple lack of numbers. Yet, Asian militant groups such as “Yellow Peril” and others did band with similar Black groups with freedom ideologies.
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This is just Antiblackness all around. Someone once said equality with whites is measured in black corpses.
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@King
What about their involvement in more recent civil rights issues? Am I mistaken in saying that the number of Asians involved in protests against police brutality in the past few years has been noticeably low? If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong but I just haven’t seen anything to contradict that observation.
I’ll say this again, I do believe that he is being used and that it is unfair. But that is what happens when you assume that “it’s not your problem”. One way or another….it usually is.
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I think its a mistake for Karlin Chan to go after the DA, Ken Thompson, why not go after the Asian American Judge?
Peter Liang did make fatal mistakes, such as having his gun out, not calling in the shooting, and not performing any medical assistance, but I did read that he said he was given the answers for CPR while in the academy and didn’t know how to perform CPR and that his training with firearms was not adequate. It’s clear to me that this was not intentional but his actions did result in the death of an innocent person.
On the other hand, I view privilege as a system of double standards so I can understand that point of view with the protesters.
@King, thanks for that link as I didn’t know so many protesters showed up.
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Incompetent and inexperienced led to dead innocent citizens.
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@ Anne
But, how would you confirm this, by looking at pictures and news snippets on T.V,? Asians are about 6% of the population at present. So if they made up 6% of the protesters nationwide, would that come across visually to the casual observer? Asians have canvassed for ethnic studies programs in most major. universities and have created an Asian Pacific Islander (APIA) ethnic identity which had roots in the original civil rights movement but is even better defined today. My point is that, although ALL Asians are not activists, they have certainly been there all along on some level during the civil rights struggle.
Kiwi and Jefe could go into greater depth on the subject, no doubt.
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@Sparkle86 said: “This is just Antiblackness all around.”
I agree with you Sparkle, it is first and foremost all about anti-blackness.
@Kiwi said: “Wrong. If it were “just” anti-Blackness, Peter Liang would have gotten off scot-free, like Darren Wilson. The fact that he was indicted, not to mention convicted, means that something more was at play, perhaps anti-Asian bias.
Chuckles! Some of you Asian folks and other minorities always give me a laugh with your tired false equivalencies are brought to the forefront to justify your weak position. However, this holds true for none more so than those of the Asian persuasion. This case is in fact, as a precipitator, about anti blackness, no matter how much you attempt to twist, turn or further muddy the water. The fact that a young black man is the only one dead, should’ve given you a clue, but unsurprisingly, it didn’t. The vast majority of Asian folks wholeheartedly want to believe that they’ve academically, socially and financially purchased enough whiteness to be considered white by either Amerika’s cursed or bedeviled standard. You know what I mean, “model minority.”
Lo and behold, how quickly this whimsical position falls to the side when the white man turns around to save HIS own ass, and essentially remind Asians by metaphorically smacking them across the face and in no uncertain terms say something to the effect: You and me are not the same!
Subsequently, almost immediately you begin to hear the suppositional chirps of “anti-Asian, anti-Asian.” (more chuckles)! For goodness’ sake, Akai Gurley is dead, and so are Sandra Bland, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Barbara Dawson, Renisha McBride, Eric Harris, Samuel DuBose, Tamir Rice and many, many others who should be alive. At least Officer Liang is still alive, albeit, on the way to prison.
Where is the mass incarceration?? Where are the dead Asian folks to supplant each dead black or unjustly imprisoned persons listed above that prove your point that there is some type of ant-Asian spirit going on in Amerika?? (grabbing more tissue, more chuckles, repeat)!
By the way, don’t think for one second that I have something against Asian folks. When I open my front door, I have Asian neighbors to the left and right of me and they’re cool families!
Meanwhile, I’ll sweep, pour some Mop and Glo into a bucket of water and clean my floor until you respond. (chuckles)!
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The actual grand Jury document:
https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2110003/people-v-liang-memorandum.pdf#sthash.slSFHb4n.dpuf
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The only time a police officer can be convicted for the death of a non-white man is when the said police officer is himself non-white.
Or perhaps it was because he had the decency to admit it was an accident rather than claim that he was being attacked by a violent thug.
Well done America.
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King posted an undated image and said: “Kiwi and Jefe could go into greater depth on the subject, no doubt.”
This image is at least a half a century old. Do you happen to have any updated PICTURES to further document Asian folks’ involvement in civil liberty movements and support of African American causes in Amerika??
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@blacksage, ok not a image, but here’s one Asian American blogger, Jen at Reappropriate, link is to one of her posts about Peter Liang.http://reappropriate.co/2015/06/nypd-officer-peter-liang-and-his-partner-stepped-over-dying-akai-gurley-never-called-ambulance
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@ blakksage
Actually, I posted that image after writing this sentence, right before referring to Kiwi and jefe:
My entire post pointed out that in the U.S. Asians are only 6% of the population and were a much smaller percentage in past decades. Such a small population would hardly “stick out” to the casual observer.
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But it’s not like it’s in any way hard to find current images if you look.
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Kiwi wrote: ” @ sparkle86
This is just Antiblackness all around.
Wrong. If it were “just” anti-Blackness, Peter Liang would have gotten off scot-free, like Darren Wilson. The fact that he was indicted, not to mention convicted, means that something more was at play, perhaps anti-Asian bias.”
My friend, can you read? Your boy got a fair trial, he was convicted for shooting an unarmed man, accidentally and displaying a cavalier attitude toward his victim by not performing cpr or calling for an ambulance, he even failed to report that he had injured someone when he reported to his superiors!
If you want your “anti-Asian bias” claim to be taken seriously, try to show that it was unreasonable to charge and prosecute him. I have no sympathy for the type of argument you are trying to make. You want to shift the conversation from what Liang did and the punishment meted out to him, to one about white officers not being convicted for worse offenses. Neither Liang nor Adonis were punished unfairly, just selectively.
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@King, @Kiwi and @Vanishpoint, ok, I see some college aged students showing a little support. Although this does NOT prove either one of your points entirely, that is, anti-Asian sentiments are sweeping Amerika, subsequently resulting in an incalculable total of unjust deaths as it is with black folks. However, it does bear witness to a little supporting activity of black civil liberties, pardon me, … clearing my throat, … I meant to say HUMAN RIGHTS related issues.
Additionally, since each and every one of you have fallen overwhelmingly short of proving your point in regards to this phantom anti-Asian movement. Therefore, Kiwi, you and the rest of your supporting casts’ posts will remain as FALSE EQUIVALENCIES, just as I deemed them to be earlier.
Now, … what about mass incarceration of Asian Americans? Moreover, where are the Asian Americans that are supposedly being incarcerated en masse just as black folks are being falsely imprisoned, falsely accused, beaten unjustly and murdered in the streets all across Amerika without cause??
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@ blakksage
I don’t think that anybody ever said that the Black experience and the Asian experience in America have been the same. What HAS been said is that some Asians have been present and in support of civil rights causes from the beginning.
This is not the ‘Oppression Olympics.’ We’re not competing for “who got done the worst.” The point is that White Supremacy effects all not White people (and even White people). If you look at your history you will find that there is PLENTY of suffering to go around. I think the Japanese could say a word or two about “mass incarceration.”
Why is it necessary for people of color to nip at the heels of each other’s communities when the biggest threat, has been and still remains, the spectre of White Supremacy?
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When Chinese Americans come out en masse for a man who was convicted for what he did, I don’t see an “oppressed” community demanding fair treatment but one demanding extension of “white privilege” to them. I see nothing legitimate in such demand. I don’t see that they need to prove that they support blacks, they have their own battles to fight against racial discrimination.
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@ gro jo
i think most Chinese Americans expect Liang to be punished. At least that’s the impression I get from as many Chinese-American sites as I’ve been able to visit by way of research. On other hand, they also see the shooting as non-intentional. It was dark and the single bullet ricocheted off of a brick wall to hit Akai Gurley. HOWEVER, Liang shouldn’t have had his gun out. He shouldn’t have had his finger on the trigger. And he certainly should have rendered aid and called for help.
So it is possible to feel both that Liang should be punished, while at the same time noting that his punishment for an accidental manslaughter could be far more than for White officers who INTENTIONALLY shoot or strangle unarmed people. I think both observations are legitimate. Liang is not guiltless, especially due to his actions (or lack thereof) after the fact. And it also seems that ethnic minorities strangely end up being much more likely to draw more sever punishments than White officers.
And do the demonstrations for Liang mean that they are not “oppressed?” By what logic does one cancel out the other?
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The Asian Community in New York has become divided by this case.
There is a group called CAAAV, which supports blacklivesmatter and the Gurley family
and Chinese Action Network supports Peter Liang. They organized the protest this weekend.
CAAAV has been around for more than 20 years (founded in 1986) and they have been harassed and received death threats for supporting the conviction of Peter Liang.
40+ Asian American & Pacific Islander Organizations, New York City Elected Officials, and Hundreds of Community Leaders Condemn Threats Against CAAAV
http://caaav.org/40-asian-american-pacific-islander-organizations-new-york-city-elected-officials-and-hundreds-of-community-leaders-condemn-threats-against-caaav
To me, this divide is between Asian Americans and Asian immigrants
because the Asian immigrants are under the false impression that they were on the same level as white people and Peter should have received the same equal treatment that white police officers received.
Welcome to America.
notice the deafening silence from the loudmouth NY Police Union, Pat Lynch
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“And do the demonstrations for Liang mean that they are not “oppressed?” By what logic does one cancel out the other?”
You seem to have misunderstood the point I was trying to make, no doubt because I didn’t do a very good job of it. I meant that Chinese Americans have enough legitimate grievances that claiming bias in this case is absurd. That mindset leads to the penning of stupidities such as this article in the nypost.
(http://nypost.com/2016/02/21/biased-da-city-scapegoat-the-asian-american-community/)
Apparently, being an “activist” absolves Ms. Ng from knowing the difference between murder and manslaughter. I have a question for people like her. What should Liang’s punishment be?
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@King,
I see your point. Such a small part of the general population would be hard to notice unless you were looking for them. I wish the cooperation between the two groups were a little stronger and overt for no other reason than to avoid situations like what is happening now. The only group winning is the one that maintains the status quo.
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Agreed Anne! Spot on.
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@ Linda:
I think you may have just explained the differences of opinion within the AA community on this one. Great analysis!
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@Linda: Your analysis helped me understand what’s happening in this tragedy and all the complexities that are involved in the Asian community.
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@ gro jo
I agree. Ms. Shirley Ng’s article is utter nonsense. Second degree manslaughter is EXACTLY the appropriate charge. Liang acted without malice or forethought, but was criminally negligent. I think that many of the activists somehow believe that Liang will get 15 years. That is however not very likely.
They believe that Liang is being offered as a sacrifice by the White establishment in order to pay for the prior sins of the White establishment. I’m not sure if there is truth to that or not.
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I hate to use one of your favorite accusations, but it’s germane in this context. The second paragraph is a shameless deflection, the subject at hand is the guilt and punishment of Peter Liang. You want to argue that he should get a pass since white cops have done worse than he did, fair enough, argue that point and leave the extraneous bs about millions of dead Asians killed during the Vietnam war and other things that don’t belong in this conversation out of it. Just because white cops have gotten away with murder, doesn’t mean that Liang is entitled to get away with manslaughter. All the talk about how ‘unfair’ his conviction was is bs.
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“Again, you don’t give a damn that White cops are killing Blacks and getting away it. You only want to condemn other minorities.”
Deflecting straw man. State what he did and the just punishment for it, otherwise, shut up, because you keep getting more demented with every comment.
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Hilarious, now you are appealing to Abagond, what for? Just state what Liang did and the punishment you deem commensurate for his crime. Was second degree manslaughter excessive, as that idiot Shirley Ng claimed? stop hiding behind Abagond and state what you really believe for once.
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“@ gro jo
Right. Intentions don’t matter…” Trust you to come up with something as stupid. Yes intention does matter. He was convicted on the basis that his gun firing unintentionally was bs. If you know something different, just make your case for his innocence.
“Do you believe gro jo has bought into the idea of respectability politics?”
Clown school isn’t in session so drop the act.
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@ Kiwi
I do not think he is arguing respectability politics. He is saying Liang was rightly convicted of manslaughter. His actions fit the crime.
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The justice system has become so unjust that justice seems like an injustice.
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@ Kiwi
What is unjust is not the conviction of Peter Liang, but the non-conviction of so many before him. Likewise, the racial bias lies not in going after Peter Liang, but in NOT going after all the White officers who have done the same or worse. Ditto Kizzy Adonis.
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@ Linda
You took the words right out of my mouth.
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“If bringing non-White cops to justice is the result of Black Lives Matter, great, but if Blacks like gro jo want to stop short of prosecuting White cops, it’s their funeral.”
“…you keep getting more demented with every comment.”
I must be a mind reader, you keep proving me right. Get help for your persecution complex, and try to tell the truth from time to time, it will keep you grounded in reality.
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“Right. Because you’ve never butted heads with any of the other regular Black commenters or been accused of having Whitewashed views on race by Blacks.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/01/13/kizzy-adonis/”
My friend, I don’t depend on the opinions of Blacks, Whites, Chinese or anybody else for my opinions. I speak for Gro Jo, no one else.
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“On this one thread, every single comment you’ve posted has been antipathetic to Asians whereas not one post you’ve left so much as even touches upon White supremacy or its hand in pitting minorities against each other.”
Nonsense. Since I was a child in Haiti, I’ve known and liked people of Chinese descent. Several cousins are of Korean and Filipino ancestry. Hell, I even liked you when I thought you were a sincere person, but the better I got to know you, the more dishonest I found you to be, prompting me to start a campaign of ridicule at your expense. Your claim is a lie. I’ve spent a good deal of time fighting with Lordy over Napoleon and his role as the enslaver of the free people of Guadeloupe and other misdeeds. Stop lying.
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Some Asain Americans get it but most are distrustful of Blacks based on what they have learned from white Americans and the media.
The L.A. Times was lamenting the under representatiom of Asians within California goverment.
I don’t know the reasons for that but the wealthy I have worked for don’t seem at all interested in politics. For them it’s all about making money and being involved in the church or temple.
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@kiwi,
For the record, I don’t agree with the use of the model minority stereotype to shut down protests by Asians. If I haven’t complained about it on this blog it is probably because I don’t comment very often. If my comments came across that way, it wasn’t intended. I just think that it is too easy for many of us (I’m referring to both races) to have the “we shouldn’t get involved because it’s not one of us” mentality. But we should all be looking out for each other. Officer Liang is being scapegoated. We could have seen that coming, if we were paying attention. The real crime is the history of police violence that continues to go unchecked. But I think that is the point you’re trying to make, right?
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Let’s be clear, the verdict is CORRECT. Scapegoat or not, The charges fit the crime and the cop should pay for his recklessness and causing someone’s else death. Justice for all, NOT clemency for all.
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Anne @ I just think that it is too easy for many of us (I’m referring to both races) to have the “we shouldn’t get involved because it’s not one of us” mentality. But we should all be looking out for each other. Officer Liang is being scapegoated. We could have seen that coming, if we were paying attention.
Linda says,
Anne, so True, thank you for putting that out there.
It’s seems to me that almost every black and brown person alive, who has lived or lives in America, knew that boy was going to get thrown under the bus… it was a given because water is wet
and white power & privilege is alive and well
if the Chinese Action Network protesters would add Kizzy Adonis to their protest about police officers of colour being scapegoated and thrown under the bus, then I would gladly take my 1/8th Chinese a’s out to the streets and protest with CAN
because then their protest would Reflect the REAL issues:
that the New York judicial system is not interested in prosecuting white officers who kill people, but somehow the courts manage to prosecute black and non-white officers.
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Peter Liang was not going to be found innocent no matter what because of 2 things: he is Not white and his dumb a’s called everyone but 911 after he realized he shot Akai Gurley — based on his actions, he gave the NYPD everything they needed to let him drown.
He and Kizzy did not learn the golden rule that is mandatory to know as people of colour working in white dominated corporations:
CYA, CYA, don’t discuss by phone, do everything by e-mail, document and document – do no stick your neck out for your white co-workers because their white managers have got their backs but management will not have yours– cover your own black, brown, and yellow a’s!
Peter was not the original sacrificial lamb thrown out to “appease the black community” as the Chinese protestors are saying — that was Kizzy Adonis in the Eric Garner case.
and even Eric Garner’s daughter called it BS, she saw it for what is was:
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20160111/tompkinsville/eric-garners-daughter-says-charged-nypd-officer-tried-save-dads-life
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@Linda and Anne
You both have been on it and I agree.
@kiwi
I agree that Asians do protest issues, but they are in the minority. As I stated to Jefe on another thread, even Asians who regularly protest have been putting Asians on blast for their lack of ability to get involved in issues because they are buying into the model minority. Too often the issue is it ain’t my problem. You can see this in the ranks of black people. Middle class blacks say this to poor blacks problems.
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Kiwi wrote: “Ewwww! That sounds just like the Black friend argument that Whites use all the time.
The fact that your views of other races depends on whether you “like” members of such groups means that you never cared about justice or equality to begin with. Most Whites would “like” Michael Brown, too, if he had been better behaved. Hell, most Whites probably “like” Asians more than you. Your reply only confirms that you were always a racist.”
Actually, it’s the Asian family argument, can’t you read? Earth to Kiwi, Hello, come back down from where ever you are. For your information, my views of any race doesn’t depend on liking members of such groups, because I like and detest individuals regardless of their racial affiliations.
As for the races, I see them as pretty much the same and prefer my own above others, so yes, I’m just as racist as you are.
Only your deep-seated racism led you to defend Liang. What you and other Chinese Americans wanted was the extension of impunity to kill Blacks to your group, not the conviction of white cops for their crimes. Ewwww! 🙂
Enjoy this story: (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2016/02/22/3751975/police-officers-blame-akai-gurley-for-causing-his-own-death/)
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Ooops.
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Kiwi @ C’mon, that’s like saying Asians shouldn’t protest with Black Lives Matter because Black protestors aren’t demanding justice for Vincent Chin.
Linda says,
Kiwi, do me a favor and don’t read shi’t into my words… I talked about MYSELF going out to protest based on MY perception of the issues being discussed by the organizing group– which is CAN
I didn’t say “Asians” or Asian people — I specifically said the Chinese Action Network (CAN)
because I have stated already, in my multiple comments, that there are other Asian groups that are supporting issues that concern black people, such as CAAAV, who have been out there protesting along with blacklivesmatter
and these Asian organizations are supporting issues that I agree with… I don’t agree with CAN and their reasons for protesting.
so please keep things in perspective, thank you
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The protest this weekend were organized by the New York group called Chinese Action Network (CAN) and using social media, the call to protest was spread around the country.
We had one here in Miami, organized by the local Chinese American Association and Kizzy Adonis was not mentioned nor is she mentioned much on the “Free Peter Liang” website.
The photo you posted were of people in Ann Arbor, Michigan and the organizer took it upon herself to add Kizzy Adonis to her message
Based on the article you got the photo from, here is what the Michigan organizer had to say about why she is protesting: (and I agree with her message about the issues)
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/thousands-rally-after-conviction-ex-cop-peter-liang-death-akai-n522546
the Chinese Action Network group in New York, from what I have seen, has not added Kizzy Adonis to the overall message, that is what I would like to see
If they had, then I certainly missed it — this is not a black vs Chinese or Asian situation…
and it’s up to the CAN organizers of the “Justice for All” campaign to spread that message because so far, due to emotions, it seems to be going that way
and there are white organizations who are anti-black, getting in on the action and offering their “support”
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@ Kiwi
Given Kizzy Adonis, Peter Liang most likely was scapegoated by the NYPD. But he still needs to be held to account for his actions, as should ALL cops regardless of race. As should the brainiac who, in this case, paired two rookie cops.
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@Linda,
I have been super super busy the last few days with no time to post, but since we discussed it last week, I just wanted to relate there has been some mention of the Peter Liang case now in both English and Chinese local news. The news was sparked by the string of protests across the USA over the weekend.
IT is not clear from what I read locally what the protesters are protesting about (although of course I personally know about the issues through this blog and what else I read). The police? the criminal justice system? The local press and media also do not mention about Kizzy Adonis or how the Asian-American communities are split up over this or how it creates a rift between blacks and Asians. So, I am not sure what local people are to make of what the media tells them.
The news about this case in Brooklyn, however, has been dwarfed by recent events in Hong Kong, especially since the civil unrest on Chinese New Year day in the Mongkok district. The violent standoff between protesters and police resulted in over 120 injured persons, 90 of them on the police side. A police officer fired two bullets into the air in the midst of the clashes to divert the energy. There is now serious talk of permitting the police to fire bullets at protesters next time.
This would be an impossible task in Mongkok, the most densely populated commercial district in the world. Even 2 weeks ago, police beat and pepper sprayed innocent bystanders and reporters. Imagine if they shoot guns into the crowd. They are not well trained to handle civil unrest already, and telling them they can shoot guns on the streets will not make it better.
One reason I wanted to leave the USA was the street violence and police brutality in the USA, something unheard of here. But bit by bit, it is coming here too. I think HK will look more and more like Xinjiang or Tibet in the coming years. No dialogue is mentioned, just harsher controls.
Many other crackdowns by authority have been announced in the past 2 weeks, and it is very alarming. This is happening in the shadow of a news event (which I noticed reached the western press last month) about the 5 missing booksellers, 2 of whom are foreign nationals abducted into Mainland China from HK and Thailand respectively, which is in direct violation of the Basic Law and Sino-British joint declaration.
China just announced that it is implementing a full and complete ban on all online content from any foreign media organization, including Sino-Foreign joint ventures. Previously Google, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, blog hosting sites (eg, WordPress) etc. had already been blocked. The New York Times had previously been blocked. Now it means that CNN, BBC, Wikipedia, etc. will no longer be available in China soon. I sometimes have to read China Labor Watch to do research before I go on a work trip in China, but it was blocked already – had to read in HK before and after.
HK had one of, if not the freest press in the world at the 1997 handover. But maybe soon, it will be a thing of the past.
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Kiwi @ Kizzy Adonis received justice. Vincent Chin never did.
Linda says,
If Kizzy Adonis received justice, then so has Peter Liang… so I guess there is nothing for Chinese Americans to protest about
and you are Absolutely correct: Vincent Chin did not receive justice
but why would Black Lives Matter protest about Vincent Chin now, he died over 20+ years ago– that is is not a current event
Eric Garner and Akai Gurley have both just died in the last year, that is current and is impacting lives now– such as Kizzy Adonis and Peter Liang
BLM doesn’t need to bring up Vincent Chins name in 2016 to show that blacks support Asians
because in 1982, both black activists and Chinese/Asian activists protested Vincent Chins death together
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Kiwi @ A common allegation by Blacks on this blog is that Asians and other races don’t do enough to champion Black causes, something they have little trouble finding fault in, but when it comes to Blacks championing other races’ causes, reciprocity suddenly flies out the window.
Linda says,
blacks and Asians have always protested together in the USA
people just don’t pay attention
this generation of black people and Black Lives Matter is not the litmus test for black and Asian people coming together to do something.
have you ever heard of the “National Rainbow Coalition” — that was “all coloured people lives matter” group of the 1980s
before becoming Mayor of New York, black activist David Dinkins and his supporters joined with Chinese activists to protest Vincent Chin and many other issues that affected Chinese Americans, such as the government wanting to build a jail in China Town.
Many of the old guard Asian “Civil Rights” activists, such as Yuri Kochiyama and Grace Lee Boggs, were still active in the 1990s and 2000s.
(Both of these women have just died in the last 2 years and their passing was given a quick by-line in the media)
There has always been interracial solidarity between black and Asian Americans because they came through the Civil Rights struggle together in the 1960s — the old guard Asian activists knew what was up and what time it was in America
unlike the current group of immigrant Chinese who have arrived in the last 20-30 years, who are enjoying all the rights that both black and Asian activists of the 1960s fought for
I agree, there is absolutely no “Model Minority” because the road was already paved for the current batch of immigrants to succeed.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/annie-tan/peter-liang-was-justly-convicted_b_9299860.html
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Linda says,
You’re comparing apples to oranges. Vincent Chin is not a current “victim”, Akai Gurley is. Vincent and Akai’s deaths were protested by both black and Asian people together.
Kizzy Adonis is the here and now and she is in the same boat as Peter Liang, both are policemen being used as scapegoats by the white Establishment
Black Lives Matter is not supporting Kizzy Adonis, so why would they support Peter?
BLM and CAN are 2 different groups with 2 different messages.
BLM is concerned with the “victims” who have been killed by policemen—not law enforcement officers who are part of the Establishment, who got f’ked over by the judicial system.
Chinese Action Network has decided to support law enforcement officers who have gotten f-over judicial system—their poster boy is Peter Liang and Kizzy Adonis also fits the criteria
I don’t support CAN because to me, their motives for protesting are not for the good of all “non-white people” as their slogan “Justice For All” would indicate.
Based on what I’ve been reading on their website, they got together because they are mad that Peter Liang did not get off like white police officers; and they’re talking mad sh’t, such as “if Peter was black, he would get off”
In what f-ing universe in America would a black cop escape being prosecuted for killing someone. Black cops have been the ultimate scapegoats for the justice system when they want to show America that they’re “doing something”
This new group of Asian Americans are acting too “brand new” for my taste and they seem “oblivious” to how things work for non-white people America.
CAN’s overall message is “If you don’t prosecute white officers, then don’t prosecute Peter” and I’m not down with that message.
There are other Asian groups that I find more worthy of my support over CAN, who have shown through years of action and deeds, that they mean it when they say “Justice For All”
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Linda wrote: “CAN’s overall message is “If you don’t prosecute white officers, then don’t prosecute Peter” and I’m not down with that message.”
Bravo Linda, that’s what Kiwi is also saying, all his verbal contortions just try to hide this fact.
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GroJo,
I don’t know what Kiwi believes about this situation
but I can see where he gets the idea that black people don’t support Asian issues – online it seem that people believe that Asians and black people don’t support each other.
I blame the media for some of it — they don’t do shine a light on issues that are supported by black American groups, such as Rainbow PUSH, who have and continue to support issues affecting Asian Americans.
the media just wants to focus on Black Lives Matter and want to show them in a negative light.
The National Asian Pacific American Women’s Forum, (NAPAWF) has been working with the NAACP on issues that affect women, but as usual, not much media attention.
https://www.aclu.org/news/advocates-women-color-appeal-discriminatory-arizona-abortion-ban
Hispanic and black activist protested with NAPAWF over the Jessica Klyzek case, an Asian woman who got her a’s beat by the police.
Example of news article that just breezes by the details:
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/05/29/demonstrators-demand-action-over-alleged-brutality-at-tanning-salon/
Th article didn’t add the pertinent details of the white cop telling Jessica:
“You’re not f—— American!”
“I’ll put you in a UPS box and send you back to wherever the f— you came from, I “will f—— kill you . . . You’ll be dead, and your family will be dead.”
these types of incidents against Asians should get national media attention and are worthy of protest, not Peter Liang getting in trouble for something he did.
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what I really meant to hi-lite in the Chicago news story was how they glossed over all the participants protesting for Jessica Klyzek.
In the article, they wrote:
“Asian-American activists and others on Thursday demanded faster and more decisive action in a recent case of alleged police brutality and racism.”
never taking the time to mention who the “others” were (blacks and Hispanics)
but they have no problems writing full detailed stories about anti-blackness by Asians or anti-Asian sentiments expressed by black people
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Kiwi, Why the hell didn’t you say that before? This is a fairly sober assessment of the situation. I don’t buy the scapegoating part because Liang is getting what he deserved, the same goes for Kizzy Adonis. Racism shouldn’t be used to excuse misdeeds by nonwhites.
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Yow, check this out:
http://reappropriate.co/2015/05/unprotected-by-assimilation-lessons-from-the-case-of-duy-ngo/
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Very interesting article.
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Another very interesting article.
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The system of white supremacy dictates that the different non-white groups all squabble and and beg for white folks to let them sleep at the foot of their bed. White supremacists are eating this ish up!
Peter Liang in my opinion is a monster – not for his accidental shooting of Mr. Gurley (which he should certainly go to jail for), but the callous and cowardly “cover your ass” attitude afterwards, that ultimately caused Gurley’s death – while Gurley’s girlfriend is next to him in the stairwell! Since it was an accident, HE should have done everything in his power to save Mr. Gurley’s life. He had a total disregard for life, and I doubt that would have been the case if the victim were white or Asian. What the hell was he doing with a gun out anyway when there was no threat presented to him?
A great man once said “You scared to come to the project when its dark ha? Claim you a thug ain’t got no heart ha?”
At the same time, whites prop up non-white people as the face of anti-black police violence. The white cop who choked Garner to death is still on the beat, while Kizzy Adonis has to turn in her badge. Lt. Rice here in B-More (white man, and highest ranking officer involved in the Freddie Gray case) receives some of the most lenient charges of all of the cops when Mr. Gray is on video being dragged to the paddywagon with his legs not moving behind him. Meanwhile officers Porter and White (black male and female, respectively) enter the scenario much much later and are tried on the SAME charges that Lt. Rice is.
The Chinese American protesters in support of Mr. Liang should be ASHAMED of themselves for engaging in such anti-black activity. While their point that making Liang THE PROBLEM (those racist Asians, always killing black citizens said no one ever) is perfectly valid, there is someone dead here. It lacks taste and frankly reeks of disdain for black people. Liang should be punished – just like white supremacists posing as cops, THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM, should be punished when they kill unarmed black people, or anyone for that matter as well.
Just because Asians are the guilty party this time, doesn’t mean they’re always the guilty party when it comes to this game of “who the white man treats the best – Everyone else be damned”. Asians do it to black folks. Black folk do it to Natives and non-white Hispanics. And the game keeps going. They got their n!55a wake up call – if you are not white, we aren’t going to treat you as such – even when we use you to abuse other groups of non-white people.
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I find the implication of the protests against the Liang verdict very distasteful. What should be protested is the fact that white killer cops get off. However, this protest gives the impression that some people want the right to kill black people with impunity extended to other more groups. I don’t find that acceptable at all.
I don’t think Liang is a scapegoat. He just isn’t white therefore more likely to actually have the law properly applied to his case when the victim is black. That is unjust on a meta-level but the solution is not be perpetrate injustice in the courts by allowing him to also get away with a murder. Any anger at black people in this situation is completely misplaced.
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They’re very different cases; the intersection of race and gender issues within the justice system came into play in the Holtzclaw case. Zimmerman could claim self-defense after feeling threatened by the stereotypically brutish black male teenager but Holtzclaw was being tried for sexually assaulting many women. Within this culture the black man is always dangerous even if unarmed so there seems to be high tolerance for the use of deadly force. Holtzclaw was being accused of being a serial rapist; he could only claim that consent was given but it would still be questionable in his position of power as a police officer.
There are also factors in the Liang case that worked against him getting away with killing an unarmed black man besides his race. He had no altercation with the victim at all; he might not even have identified him. He just discharged his weapon completely unprovoked. He couldn’t claim he felt threatened or Gurley resisted arrest. That’s why he and his partner (who was later fired from the force) spent some time trying to decide on a story rather than rendering aid to the victim. The usual claims police make just wouldn’t fly given the circumstances.
If you behave recklessly and end up killing someone you’ll usually be charged with a crime. If I went into an apartment and fired a gun for no reason and “accidentally” killed someone it’s still potentially manslaughter. Heck, if you’re a repeat drunken driver who gets into a fatal *ACCIDENT*, killing someone, you can be charged with vehicular manslaughter even though you had no murderous intent. You behaved recklessly with disregard for the potential danger to others. Though Oscar Grant’s killer, Johannes Meserle, ended up spending relatively little time in prison he was actually convicted of involuntary manslaughter even though he claimed he accidentally fired his gun instead of his taser during Grant’s arrest.
It is unjust that whites are more likely to get away with murder than other races. However, the solution is not to extend that privilege to other races. The solution is to ensure that whites are punished as well. The tacit approval of the unpunished murders of unarmed black men by police in America has created the this apparent meta-level injustice when a cop who isn’t white is actually convicted according to the law. However, the protests should be against the killer cops who got away with murder to insist that they should be punished too…though that would involve giving a 5hit about their victims who might be black.
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@ Origin.
Glad too see you back. Your writings are always good.
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@Origin
Well thought out and well said.
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@ Kiwi
I’m thinking that maybe the term “Scapegoat” doesn’t always translate quite so well, because a scapegoat is usually seen as an innocent person made to bear the blame for others. They are not paying for their own sins but for somebody else’s. I think perhaps in the case of Peter Liang, the fact that he is not exactly innocent himself confuses the scapegoating charge.
Was he the victim of unequal treatment by the police department? I’d say probably so, but maybe the scapegoat term carries with it the presumption that he did nothing wrong in the first place. And that is what people immediately object to.
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scapegoat doesn’t apply here. This is just a case of a hypocrite wanting to excuse the crime of a member of his racial group. His sophistries should be treated with the contempt they deserve.
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“The police probably figured that given all the resurgent racial animus lately, it would be best to give Blacks an Asian face to direct their anger at. It might work, seeing as how many Black commenters on this blog view Asians through a stereotyped lens.”
What about your stereotyped lens view of Blacks? Get off your high horse, you ridiculous clown. Your moral superiority stance is bs. Your boy was guilty, deal with that fact, instead of inventing all kinds of paranoid fantasies about scapegoating. LIANG IS GUILTY.
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@ King
Your comment explains it pretty well.
@ Kiwi
In America (and perhaps in other countries), every group of people uses a stereotype(s) to justify an action (good or bad). The negative stereotypes of Blacks as “criminals” and low-income public housing as “dangerous” could’ve ignited Officer Peter Liang to carry his gun in his hand instead of keeping it in his holster. Had it been at a high-income private housing complex Peter Liang probably would’ve reacted differently and the outcome would’ve been totally different as well. Unfortunately, Peter Liang (and other individuals) chose a profession that has an ongoing bitter relationship with many of its citizens, particularly Black citizens.
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@King
Where as I agree with you that scapegoat might not be the best term (“Fall guy” or “whipping boy” might be better, or someone who “takes the heat”) I will also have to disagree that “scapegoat” implies “innocence” in any sense of the word. A scapegoat could also be a guilty party or have a role to play in some misdeed and may not be blameless either. I just looked up “scapegoat” in 8 different dictionaries and none of them state or imply that the scapegoat is innocent.
A scapegoat is a person made to to bear the blame for others, whether the scapegoat himself is innocent or not (that is irrelevant).
Peter Liang can be guilty of a misdeed or criminal act and still be a scapegoat. In fact, one might argue that he is a “perfect scapegoat” (analogous to the concept of “perfect victim”) as
– he is convicted of a crime that he actually committed
– he functions as a surrogate of white police brutality without being an actual white person
– whites feel no qualms about letting the bus run over him.
–> his conviction will appease most blacks without offending whites and leaves the white power structure intact. Perfect.
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The un-scapegoating of Peter Liang:
A cowardly cop with knees knocking and teeth chattering is holding his gun unsteadily with his twitching finger on the trigger while patrolling a “scary” building in the dark without his flashlight. Someone kisses his girlfriend and leaves an apartment closing the door behind him The horrific creak, straight out of a slasher-film, causes the nervous cop’s eyes to bulge out of their sockets. He fires wildly in the direction of the sound killling the man. The movie audience laughs. What a funny reaction from this bungling character.
Later, the scene shifts to the trial. The prosecution claims that the cop acted rashly but the defense raises some powerful arguments. Firstly, the victim had no business being in such a dangerous location and leaving an apartment at night. Clearly, he was up to no good. Furthermore, it was just one accidental shot while other cops had peppered men with dozens of bullets during arrests and were not charged with a crime. What message would we be sending if some people murder and get away with it while others don’t? Clearly every policeman needs to be able to kill with impunity.
The jury agrees and decides that he is not guilty of any crime. The victim’s family forgives the nervous cop, hugging him before TV cameras after the trial. His girlfriend and the mother of his child says “It was God’s will, praise Jesus”. His mother kisses the nervous cop and says that if he knows anyone who urgently needs a kidney or heart there will be some organs available because her son was healthy and in his prime.
Credits:
A few thousand Asian-Americans
FIN
Scapegoating is usually seen as unjust so when the only option to avoid scapegoating involves *doing* something unjust, you know that scapegoating charge is nonsense.
@Afrofem, @michaeljohnbarker
Thanks for the welcome.
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“scape·goat
ˈskāpˌɡōt/
noun
noun: scapegoat; plural noun: scapegoats
1.
(in the Bible) a goat sent into the wilderness after the Jewish chief priest had symbolically laid the sins of the people upon it (Lev. 16).
a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency.
synonyms: whipping boy; More
informalfall guy, patsy
“find yourself another scapegoat”
verb
verb: scapegoat; 3rd person present: scapegoats; past tense: scapegoated; past participle: scapegoated; gerund or present participle: scapegoating
1.
make a scapegoat of.”
The Asian BS artists are trying way too hard here.
“Where as I agree with you that scapegoat might not be the best term (“Fall guy” or “whipping boy” might be better, or someone who “takes the heat”) I will also have to disagree that “scapegoat” implies “innocence” in any sense of the word.” Sorry but the definition shown above does imply innocence.
“gro jo’s comment proves my point. I was hoping he’d chime in. Peter Liang is supposedly “my boy” but if I were to refer to Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown as “his boy”, most commenters would call it out as racist and condescending. Luckily, plenty of Black commenters on this blog are not like him. Still, most Blacks are more likely to think the way he does and that has real life consequences for Asians. We saw that during the Rodney Kong riots and the Ferguson riots.
It’s always easier to attack those who are weaker than to confront those in power.” Sorry dopey, the only thing you’ve “proven” is how racist you are. LIANG IS GUILTY therefore he’s no scapegoat. Read the damn definition.
” a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency.” The only thing I find shocking is how tolerant most of the blacks on this blog have been toward your lies and evasions. I will grant you and your ilk no quarter on this issue. When you and Jefe claim that a guilty man is a scapegoat, you guys are lying. A guilty scapegoat? Get the flock out of here!
“Still, most Blacks are more likely to think the way he does and that has real life consequences for Asians. We saw that during the Rodney Kong riots and the Ferguson riots.” More racist bs from the Asian bs artist. When Mr. Louissaint and his Chinese girlfriend murdered her Chinese parents, he got a harsher sentence than she did. I don’t recall a single Haitian taking to the street to protest how he was made a scapegoat. He did the crime and paid the price. THERE ARE NO GUILTY SCAPEGOATS.
” Being a scapegoat does not imply innocence. If that were true, all Jews who died in the Holocaust would have been innocent. The truth is, some were criminals, murderers, thieves, rapists, etc. like every race, nation, religion, or ethnicity.” This gem is proof positive that you are an idiot. You claim that some of the Holocust victims were criminals, etc. is racist justification for that atrocity, nothing else. The same claim could be made for the victims of the Nanking massacre, or any other mass killing in human history. Christ, you’re stupid!
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Bravo Origin. The mendacity and stupidity of the scapegoating claim is laid bare with humor. THERE ARE NO GUILTY SCAPEGOATS.
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Holocust should have been Holocaust in the comment above.
” the Rodney Kong(sic) riots”!? Kong as in King Kong? a racist slip of the fingers on the keyboard, no doubt. Very revealing.
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@grojo
No it does not.
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Jefe, How is a goat guilty of the sins of a community of Jews? Where is individual guilt implied or stated in the following: “a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency.” Take your time to answer, I’m in no hurry.
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There can be (partially) guilty scapegoats. The term “fall guy” is sometimes used in such cases where one person gets punished for the actions of a group. An example might be the low ranking soldiers who were punished for the torture at Abu Ghraib in Iraq. However Liang is not a “fall guy” as he was solely responsible for the shooting death of Gurley. IIRC, he was not even supposed to be in the bulding much less walking around in the dark with his gun unholstered. Therefore, one can’t even argue that his bosses erred by sending him in. Furthermore, it’s not the case that a group of cops beat Gurley to death and only Liang was punished. There’s no dispute: a bullet from his gun killed Akai Gurley whose only crime was opening a door. There are no equally culpable individuals IN THIS CASE who are getting a pass. So who would Liang be talking the fall for?
Saying Liang is a scapegoat for the WHOLE police force implies that he is being blamed and punished for the behavior of ALL cops and his conviction in the shooting death of Gurley is intended to atone for ALL questionable police shootings. However, such an idea is ludicrous because the resolution of the Gurley case does not address Tamir Rice, Walter Scott, Levar Jones, John Crawford or any other people killed or shot by police under suspicious circumstances. I doubt that the relatives and friends of any of those people are thinking “Well, one Asian-American cop was convicted of killing someone else so it’s all good.” Futhermore, it’s a matter of fact that Liang WAS NOT convicted and will not be sentenced for the deaths of Tamir Rice or anyone else. Liang killed Akai Gurley for no reason and will be punished FOR THAT not for the deaths of people he had nothing to do with. So how was he scapegoated?
It’s one thing to observe that Liang was convicted while many other cops who kill people under questionable circumstances go free. It’s quite another thing to try to make him into a victim. The right to kill black peole with impunity is not an actual thing in 2016. Liang may have been denied a privilege that white cops shouldn’t have either; but it’s not a legitimate right. However, the whole situation demonstrates how an unjust system loses credibility. The fact that people can be protesting Liang’s conviction with a straight face speaks volumes about both the public’s perception of the “justice system” and their assessment of the value of African-American lives. They notice that it is normative for black people to be killed by white cops with impunity and consider the deviation in Gurley’s case to be “unjust” treatment of Liang! I’m trying to imagine Gurley white, Liang still Asian-American and protests in the streets given the same outcome. Does not compute.
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“There can be (partially) guilty scapegoats. The term “fall guy” is sometimes used in such cases where one person gets punished for the actions of a group. ”
Not in the original definition, but your point is well taken and correct, as far as “fall guy” goes. I admire your clear thinking on this subject, sophists like Kiwi shouldn’t be allowed to cloud the issue. He is engaging in scapegoating when he blames the “Black community” for the downfall of his boy.
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@Origin
I agree. Killing another human being with complete impunity is a privilege that White cops and their allies want to maintain for White cops only. It does not legitimate the impunity privilege. In a just society, impunity privilege would exist for no one of any background.
Elements of this case highlight how unjust this society really is.
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@gro jo
I agree that the term “scapegoat” usually implies innocence. The furthest the term could be pushed is the case where one is partially culpable but bears all the blame (fall guy). Neither of those apply to Liang. He’s not a scapegoat unless we can find a definition that means “guilty as sin and punished accordingly”.
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Origin, We are fully in agreement.
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Prove that Liang was “scapegoated”.
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It’s disturbing to see you argue for giving your boy a free pass for killing a black man.
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Well, at least in my understanding of the term (and gro jo has supplied the definition above) the term “Scapegoat” has an Old Testament Judaic origin. The ceremony is taken from Leviticus 16.
Two goats were chosen, one was sacrificed and the other (the Scapegoat) was to bear the sins of the people into the wilderness, away from the camp. The two goats were chosen only by lot, so nobody knew beforehand which would be sacrificed. Therefore both goats had to fit the restrictions placed upon sacrificial animals.
So neither goat could be blemished in any way, as was the rule with all sacrifices…
“If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish.” Leviticus 1:3
“But if it has any blemish, if it is lame or blind or has any serious blemish whatever, you shall not sacrifice it to the Lord your God.” Deuteronomy 15:21
“if it is to be accepted for you it shall be a male without blemish, of the bulls or the sheep or the goats.” Leviticus 22:19-24
“And you shall offer a burnt offering, a food offering, with a pleasing aroma to the Lord, thirteen bulls from the herd, two rams, fourteen male lambs a year old; they shall be without blemish” Numbers 29:13
The lack of blemish implies purity, meaning that in order to be a sacrifice for someone else, they could have no “blemish” of their own. That is why the term indicates a pure or “innocent” person who takes the sins of another.
A “fall guy” can be guilty but simply have been pre-selected to take the “fall” for his comrades if anything goes wrong.
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Dopey, they were innocent of the charges the Nazis brought against them, such as being responsible for Germany’s defeat in WWI, etc. Even the rapists and murderers among them were innocent of that charge. You really are dumb.
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Strangely enough, gro jo is actually saying what I was thinking. I think that when you are talking about the Jews in Nazi Germany you are not just talking about one person or one incident. You are necessarily speaking about a general people and therefore about general scapegoating.
I’d say that the Jews were innocent of what they were accused of (generally speaking) and that is how they were scapegoated. However, in Peter Liang’s case, he has been accused of Manslaughter 2 (Involuntary Manslaughter) And by definition, he is guilty of that charge. How then is he being accused of something that he is innocent of?
Therefore, I’m thinking that Liang is more a Fall Guy then a scapegoat. He may not be treated in the same way as a White police officer, but because he is culpable, he cannot be a “scapegoat.”
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@ Kiwi
Within the East and South East Asian community there is so much division. Sometimes I wish what happened to Latin America with Spanish happened to South East Asia with the French. A common pidgeon French language that all South East Asians speak thus creating a cohesion and unity that Hispanic/Latinos have. But that’s just a pipe dream.
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@ Khiwi
Yea, it’s semantics. I was basically musing on how the semantics of the term “scapegoat” might be a sticking point. I’m not personally bothered by it, I was just thinking through the implications of the term.
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@Kiwi
[Treating scapegoating a group (in the example of Jews) the same as scapegoating a person doesn’t make for a sound argument. Obviously if one makes statements about a group, it may be true for *some members* of the group even if it is not true for the majority as the accusers claim. It could still be the case that the group, as a whole, is not guilty as charged.]
Anyway, I see no evidence that Asian-Americans are now viewed as the primary perpetrators of police brutality against African-Americans. That blatantly contradicts all the facts and the data associated with previous incidents. The only thing that happened here is that a man was killed in very bizzare circumstances and the killer was convicted of manslaughter. If that alone is sufficient to “scapegoat” Liang then what do you propose should have happened? If we wasn’t punished and there were protests, it would not be because he’s Asian since there were also protests for the deaths of Garner and Brown.
Quite possibly, the protests *against* Liang’s conviction by some large Asian-American groups has done more damage to racial relations than the actual incident. Imagine if Slager is convicted in the shooting death of Walter Scott and crowds of white people protest the “injustice” just because *other* cops in *other* cases weren’t convicted. It would be highly inflammatory and I suspect that they’d be blasted as racists who want to perpetuate a murderous police culture.
IMO, criticism of the Asians has been somewhat muted because of their “minority” status while they allow themselves to be used as proxies by whites to attack African-American attempts to make police accountable. The obvious implication of the protests is that Liang should have walked just like white people who kill n*****.The Asian-American protesters can therefore be seen aspiring to white privilege at the expense of African Americans which would leave no basis for solidarity between the groups.
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“Jews were accused of everything wrong with Germany, including crime. Some Jews were criminals, so yes, sometimes the charges are true.”
Wow, the stupidity of that comment is breathtaking! Let’s apply the same standard, however debased, to pogroms against members of your own race. The anti-Chinese pogroms that occurred from the late 19th century to the Vincent Chin one, were justified, because some of the Chinese must have been guilty of something, sometime! The reasoning is embarrassingly specious. You are either a fascist or a child. Maybe, you’re a childish fascist?
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@Origin
Asians shit on other Asians even within their own ethnicity and country. Because of facial bone structure, stature and or skin complexion. It’s well known I’ve experienced it quite often.
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You’re on a roll gro jo! Carry on!
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Uh pretty sure lev 16 10 both goats were without blemish so they were both ‘worthy’ of sacrifice? The scapegoat technically escaped sacrifice but i dont think this verse is from the goats pov? So scapegoat is denoted to be a sin offering ie atoning for the supplicant… but not to be a burnt offering? I guess thats like a wave offering its a little vague.
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@Origin
The reaction of large Chinese-American groups to this case is in marked contrast to the reaction of Koreans and Korean-American groups after the revelation of the Korean background of the killer in the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.
In that situation, Korean nationals and Korean Americans expressed shock, horror and a sense of deep personal responsibility. In the US, this article in the Seattle Post Intelligencer was typical:
[emphasis mine].
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Local-Korean-community-apologetic-and-fearful-1234568.php
In Korea fear, shock and feelings of sympathy toward the victims was the predominate reaction.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18153941/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/south-korea-fears-shooting-may-stir-prejudice/
Fear, shock, groveling and sympathy for White victims. Indifference, blame and belligerence for Black victims. Quite a contrast in reaction.
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@agabond,
Just for clarity, has this case moment thread seriously turned into a debate on the definition of the term scapegoat? I thought the issue at hand was the conviction of a police officer who shot an unarmed man.
For those who wish to speak for me or use my name in defense of their own opinions, please note that I agree with the verdict. However, I disagree with the fact that only the Asian officer was charged and convicted. This case should have been the opportunity for the Mayor of New York to throw a spotlight on the faults in the police department and pursue charges against the higher ranking officers.
I also see the protests as something slightly bizarre when I consider how few times the Asian community has spoken up before. Regardless of how one feels about the case, it is very bad optics to have the largest Asian movement in recent history center around calls for the exoneration of an Asian officer who shot an unarmed! Innocent, Black man. Even if their motivations are pure and nuanced, on the surface, they still come across as if they are calling for inclusion in the realm of white privilege and not charging against injustice as many say they are.
The unfortunate part is that for a group that is seen as being measured and strategic in its political actions, this may not end they way they hope. Their past silence was misinterpreted as their being complicit with the status quo of white supremacy. Some White people assume that the reason Asians don’t get involved in White/Black issues is because they agree with the White view. So their anger is again misinterpreted through the same lens.
The best thing to do now is to start a petition for a light sentence, like probation. But arguing that the charge is wrong is way off base.
An even better thing to do would be to start a trust fund for the two year old child who lost a father due to an over zealous, overtly racist police department.
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@Anne
You said it perfectly.
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@Anne
Well said.
I especially like the constructive idea of a trust fund for Akai Gurley’s three children.
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@agabind,
Can you change “case moment” to “comment”? Also, please remove the exclaimation mark after the word unarmed.
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@afrofem,
I didn’t know he had three children. That makes it worse.
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Dopey, dopey, dopey, stop embarrassing yourself. The only thing you’ve proven is that you reason like a fascist thug. What I showed, was that your collective guilt crap can and should be turned against you. Pogromists who killed Jews because “they killed Jesus” would find a kindred spirit in you.
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Dopey, when are you going to “take responsibility” for John Yoo’s ( a fellow Asian) war crimes? Blaming Blacks for the deeds of Obama is in keeping with your fascist collective guilt shtick.
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“The best thing to do now is to start a petition for a light sentence, like probation. But arguing that the charge is wrong is way off base.”
Why should he get a light sentence, has he shown remorse for his action?
“An even better thing to do would be to start a trust fund for the two year old child who lost a father due to an over zealous, overtly racist police department.”
His family is suing the city and Liang, they will get enough from these suits to take care of the victim’s children.
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@Kiwi
I personally thought the extreme groveling response on the part of the Korean-American community in 2007 was unwarranted. They were not responsible for the actions of one community member.
I have yet to see European-Americans (as a group) express remorse for the suffering and death their community members (civilians or police) unleash on other groups in this country or globally.
My impression of the Korean-American response is that they did not want to lose their place in line for the next great White Enlargement. They desire the security and certainty of Whiteness so badly they can taste it.
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@Kiwi
“The fact that so many Chinese Americans are protesting indicates to me that some Asians perceive that, as a group, they have been unfairly scapegoated as the primary perpetrators of police brutality. Maybe Peter Liang is a one-off thing, but I doubt that even you believe that the criminal justice system has suddenly committed to being colorblind and bringing killer cops to justice.”
Where is the evidence that they’ve been unfairly scapegoated. Show me the long list of Asian-American officers blamed for police brutality or dirty policing. Holtzclaw (if he counts) and Liang are the only ones I can think of and they were both genuinely 5hitty. More white police officers have been convicted of crimes: Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_police_officers_with_criminal_convictions
The officer who beat up Floyd Dent in Inkster (Melendez) was convicted and sentenced to 13 months in prison. Slager, who killed Walter Scott, is facing murder, not manslaughter, charges though it remains to be seen whether he’ll be convicted.
I don’t believe the justice sysem is colorblind. However, those people are protesting for the intensification of injustice. They are NOT protesting for white killer cops to be brought to justice. They want Liang to walk when Liang negligently shot a guy and let him bleed out without rendering aid as was his duty. The protests are a slap in the face to the real victims: the DEAD man, his infant daughter and his family.
end @Kiwi
Speaking generally now, I get it. After Dylan Roof shot and killed black people in a church study group a judge thought it appropriate to express sympathy for HIS white family. Those protesters have more sympathy for the person who pulled the trigger than the dead man. I do get it. I’ve hardened under their hardness. They’ve taught me how to be indifferent, reciprocally.
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@Kiwi
“In fact, one of the reasons Chinese Americans are protesting is precisely because they know they are not White. One of the criteria to being the supposedly White-allied Model Minority is silence. The protests fly in the face of that notion.”
Protesting for the police’s right to kill with impunity is “white-allied” behavior. Whites would think better than to do that but another minority sure can, on their behalf. Then they can come out in support of “justice”.
http://www.bensonhurstbean.com/2016/02/32178/
“Liang’s supporters have gained some new allies in response to Saturday’s rally. Senator Marty Golden, a former NYPD officer, released a statement Saturday expressing solidarity with the cop and pro-Liang protesters .”
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@Kiwi
“It is not. Yet you act like in this instance, it suddenly is. Who knows? I hope you’re right.”
You seem to have comprehension problems.
I have not acted as if the justice system is colorblind. What I have said is that there was no miscarriage of justice in this instance. I also said that it isn’t true that white cops have NEVER been convicted of crimes. Johannes Mehserle, who shot Oscar Grant was convicted of involuntary manslaughter though he wasn’t incarcerated for long. Liang’s conviction was appropriate. The idea that an Asian cop being punished for doing something wrong is automatically scapegoating is preposterous.
Asking for special consideration/immunity because Liang’s Asian, even if they feel that a white cop would have gotten it, may be an ethnically self-interested move but it does not represent a just cause. I oppose it. The bottom line is that Liang shot someone, accidentally or not, then showed callous disregard for his life while he pondered how to keep his job. That is not behavior that should be rewarded, regardless of race.
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@Kiwi
In atmosphere in which close scrutiny is being given to policing only white cops should be prosecuted for misconduct otherwise it’s scapegoating? Do I comprehend properly now?
Still nonsense.
Three black officers (and three white) were among those charged in the death of Freddie Gray. There is no evidence Asian cops are being singled out to be blamed for police brutality. The protesters are ridiculous. If Liang were part of a group whose actions resulted in death, like in the Eric Garner case, and he was the only one punished I could understand the view that he was being made to take the fall. However, given the facts we have, the protests just represent ehtnic self-interest with no shred of concern for justice. I am not surprised as human history is replete with such examples. However, it’s dishonest to suggest that it’s anything else but that.
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There is a culture of disregard for life within police departments and all cops will be exposed to it and possibly influenced by it regardless of race. We shouldn’t be surprised that minority cops, even African-American police officers, may sometimes behave in ways that violate the rights citizens. Given the racism within the system it is entirely possible that they are more likely to be brought to account. However that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be punished when they’re wrong. What we need is broad and equitable application of justice not equal-opportunity injustice at the expense of the vulnerable. That’s a ridiculous proposition.
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Origin,
Nice job demolishing the absurd arguments of the resident childish Asian fascist. The sense of entitlement that creep exudes is amazing. A sociologist should devote time to study his group to determine the material basis of such arrogance. I blame the insularity of the suburbs for it.
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@Kiwi
“No, you do not. Abagond, along with other commenters, have indicated that responsibility for Akai Gurley’s death was shared and not exclusive to Peter Liang. You may not agree with them but assuming they are right, Liang is their fall guy.”
I’m not sure why you’re appealing to Abagond or “other commenters” but please explain how other people were responsible for Gurley’s death. Liang was not even supposed to be doing a vertical patrols in that building and chose to have his gun unholstered resulting in an “accidental” death after he became spooked.
There is no dispute that Liang fired the fatal shot and didn’t do anything to mitigate the situation. Even if blame can somehow be apportioned to other people it is clear Liang is most responsible for Gurley’s death. It is not unjust if he’s punished more severely than any other supposedly responsible party.
I’m disappointed that you’re so slippery and dishonest in this discussion just because Peter Liang is Asian. Your position is untenable and it’s irritating to respond while you continually move goalposts from one ridiculous place to another. Your “clarification” in your last reply about a previous post relating to “the atmosphere of close scrutiny of police” (which you claim I misunderstood) actually presents a completely new idea, namely, that a group was responsible for Gurley’s death and he took the fall. Which group? It can’t be that you’re saying that the whole police force is responsible for Gurley’s death just because Liang is a police officer. That’s like blaming all Asians for Pearl Harbor. That argument could justify the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII. On the flip side, It would also turn ALL punishment of individuals into scapegoating because we should really blame their upbringing or group dynamics. The implications are nonsensical.
You desire to exonerate a killer based on ethnic affiliation yet you want to couch it in terms of a pursuit of justice which does not apply. As a result, your argument has become entwined in a veritable spider’s web of inconsistency. I understand, and won’t decry, ethnic self-interest but I have to call out the dishonest attempt to portray it as something else. It’s not unlike those Chinese-American street protesters who cynically invoked MLK in a completely inapplicable scenario. He didn’t fight for the right for police to kill anyone and get away with it. I was hearing you out, Kiwi, to see if you had any reasonable points to make but now that it’s clear that you don’t, I’m content to bow out. Unless you specifically address me and provoke me to respond I’m fine with considering this conversation over.
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“It happened with OJ Simpson and even in murders of Asians, where Black killers actually got away with murder because of Black juries. Where was the Black outrage and cry for justice then? Oh, right. I doubt you even care.”
Where’s your outrage at John Yoo’s obscenities? Or those of your fellow Chinese fascist Harry Lee?
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Why is it racist of me to want to see you happily married and perpetuating the Chinese race?
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Sorry to disappoint you, I didn’t grow up in a ghetto. Hell as a kid I rubbed shoulders with kids who were children of diplomats. Some could even tell you what job their ancestors got from cardinal Richelieu. The head of my sister’s boarding school was a direct descendant of the Valois kings of France. Some ghetto. ha!
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The only reason your precious Abagond called my a troll is because, unlike the children here, I don’t take his claims at face value and I’m not afraid to tell him so. You on the other hand, shamelessly toady to him, feeding his ego
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@ gro jo
Spoken like a true troll.
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Kiwi, Where’s your outrage at the atrocities carried out throughout China’s history? Goodness, are you stupid.
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Abagond, You ego maniac, why do you let you little buddy Kiwi make such fool of himself here simply because he shamelessly sucks up to you?
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called my a troll should have been called me a troll.
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“Actually, I’ve disagreed with Abagond on many points. Just another of your many unsubstantiated accusations. *yawn*”
Pinocchio, by how many inches did your proboscis grow?
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Abagond, you ingrate, how many times have I corrected your errors, such as your claim that Adwa was the first time whites got their ass handed to them by a black army? There were other occasions besides that one. What was trollish about that? Have I ever violated any of your blog’s strictures? You don’t like me because I’m not a groupie but you lie when you call me a troll. I’ve elevated the discussion here. The Easley post for example, where you tried to sell some snake oil about a lady who spent 34 years working for NASA and was their front line defense against the charge of racist practices, as EEOC officer was somehow thwarted by management! She was their poster girl.
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@ gro jo
Sometimes you are serious, but sometimes it seems like you just want to get people’s goat – like what you are doing now with Kiwi.
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“If we both said “My nose will grow now”, you’d be the one to burst into flames, not me.”
Burst into flames!? Sorry, I don’t get your allusion.
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Yes, I seriously want to get Kiwi’s goat, because you are unwilling to call him to order. You let him write tons of bs on this subject and show his deep seated racism because he’s forever kissing your gluteus maximus
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Thank you for the clarification. You are no Shakespeare.
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“This is exactly what I meant about Black people’s ability to be racist. And yet, we have fools on this blog who claim that this isn’t possible. ”
.
Actually, it’s the “fools on this blog” who cannot recognize the distinct difference between words like “racist” and ‘prejudice’ or, “racist” and ‘biased’ or ‘preference.’ Have you looked in the mirror lately?
Being prejudiced, biased, preferential, reactionary and PUGNACIOUS (like you are) doesn’t necessarily equate to being a racist. Obviously, fools can be anyone, especially among pugnacious dimwits looking to argue about everything and anything.
Fool – an individual who will not remove the chip off of their shoulder, regardless of the situation. (A person who lacks good judgment.) 🙂
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@Kiwi
You’re not only talking out of both sides of your mouth but also refusing to own your own sentiments instead setting up other people as mouthpieces (Abagond and “other commenters”). As I said, your position is ridiculous and doesn’t warrant my attention anymore so I won’t be responding in detail.
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“Personally, I found your false accusation that Abagond only uses pictures of light-skinned Blacks to be distasteful and a low jab at him. I am still pondering your motives behind that.”
That accusation was partially false, and I did the decent thing by apologizing to the gentleman. What I meant to accuse him of was of using only light skinned children to represent the much broader range of color common to Blacks.
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BTW, I haven’t expressed any opinions about OJ here so you have no way of knowing what they are. It’s extremely dishonest to make an assumption, pretend it’s fact, and then accuse me based on your own fabrications. You *have* expressed an opinion about the Peter Liang issue and that’s what I was talking to you about. You are simply being evasive and throwing out all sort of irrelevant accusations that have nothing to do with the issue at hand.
The reason for your defensiveness is simple: your position is ridiculous and incoherent so you’re disowning it by foisting it on Abagond and “other commenters” while inventing straw men to attack me with. Even the ad homenin attacks are coming out now (asking if I’m stupid). I could respond in kind but why bother to stoop to your level? The base tactics you’re resorting to demonstrate that you have no leg to stand on.
Trying to appear as if you care about justice while implicitly supporting an unjust resolution to a homicide case was always a losing proposition. There is nothing unusual about ethnic self-interest but, to borrow a weird Judy-ism, “Don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining”.
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@ Fan
Good one! LOL!
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about 6 days too late on the ‘pinocchio paradox meme’
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@Kiwi
Please cite three instances of Asian-Americans murdered by African Americans where the accused killers were acquitted by Black juries.
Where and when did these cases occur?
Were the juries predominantly Black (nine or more members) or only partially Black?
What was the ethnicity of the Asian Americans?
What was the response of the local Asian American community?
What was the response of the local Black community?
I would be interested in reading about these cases.
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“I would be interested in reading about these cases.”
.
@Afrofem
Yes! Me too!
BTW, I’m still waiting for Kiwi to EXPLAIN when/where in Amerika’s twisted historical account Blacks went from being kidnapped in chains chattel captives to becoming racists??
smh.
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@Kiwi
“Can you point to one place where I said Liang deserves a lighter sentence?”
You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth and trying to be slippery. You already attempted to distance yourself from your own position by claiming to be merely echoing the sentiments of “Abagond and other commenters”. Now you’re saying that while you support the Peter Liang protesters, who believe his conviction (not SENTENCE, he hasn’t been sentenced) was unjust scapegoating, you never said his sentence should be lighter. Again, he hasn’t been sentenced so commenting on his sentence would have been premature on your part. Furthermore, it’s highly inconsistent to argue for a protest while you aren’t in agreement with the cause being protested for. If that’s what you’re implying, I’m baffled.
It’s evident that you’re either trying really hard to convince me that you’re not too bright or you’re trying to take me for a fool. I’m going to assume it’s the latter so I’m not going to seriously address the posts of someone who has no interest in honesty but wants to play a game of oneupmanship. Any semblence of sunstantiveness disappeared from your postings a long time ago so why should I unilaterally attempt to converse in good faith? I won’t. I told you several posts ago that the conversation was essentially over from my perspective. At this point I’m just demonstrating *why* I’m done taking you seriously in this thread.
And while you were responding to Afrofem, I just want to be clear that *I* never said that anything is wrong to be self-interested. In fact I specially said that I won’t decry ethnic self-interest. Just don’t try to mask that behind a pursuit of justice by trumping up charges of scapegoating when the guy that was convicted of involuntary manslaughter (not even murder) single-handedly shot someone to death for no bloody reason and didn’t render aid. Ridiculous.
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*never said that anything is wrong with *being* self-interested
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Dopey, you really had to reach back to pull this ‘evidence’ of black injustice. The writer you quote admits that there was no basis for federal involvement in the Lee case, yet, in keeping with your fascist leanings, you and the writer wanted to “send a message” by demanding that the feds violate the law!
You claim that the only reason Lee’s killer wasn’t convicted was because the jury was racist, maybe, but the article doesn’t even try to prove that claim.
You promised us “It happened with OJ Simpson and even in murders of Asians, where Black killers actually got away with murder because of Black juries.” Where are the other cases, this one doesn’t look as airtight as you pretend.
By the way, you racist cretin, how the f*ck did you manage to turn the OJ jury black, when three of them were white or Hispanic? According to you, the non-blacks were browbeaten into voting with the rest? You should be advocating removal of blacks from jury pools, since you deem them too biased. Grandpa, Sheriff Harry Lee, would be so proud if he were still alive.
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@Kiwi
Thank you for providing one case that fits the criteria of predominantly Black jury acquittal of a Black person accused of murdering an Asian-American.
The facts fit even though the source material for your example was an editorial piece by Gregory Kane. Gregory Kane was a well known
Black conservativeWhite Supremacist columnist at the Baltimore Sun. A web search of him was eyebrow raising.Fellow former Baltimore Sun columnist, Wiley Hall III (3rd), had this to say of Gregory Kane:
http://mije.org/richardprince/gregory-kane-conservative-columnist-dies-62
That was one case. Your assertion was plural. Do you have two more?
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Afrofem, I’m surprised you accepted the Kane article at face value! It did not prove that the jury had racist motives. The juror quoted simply stated that he/she believed the accused guilty. There might have been perfectly good reasons to discount the testimonies of the witnesses against him. Kiwi claimed that the jurors were racist, let him prove it was so.
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@gro jo
I understand your viewpoint. My primary interest is in instances of predominantly Black juries (plural) acquitting Black murder/manslaughter defendants of killing Asian Americans.
Like you, I noticed in that piece by Gregory Kane that the quoted juror perceived the prosecution witnesses as weak. There was nothing in that article that pointed to racial animus on the part of the jurors toward the victim, his family or Asian-Americans in general. As you noted, the attempt to charge the accused killer with a Civil Rights violation was scuttled because “…federal prosecutors saw through that ploy, and rightly, refused to have anything to do with it.”
Kane’s write-up was tinged with sarcasm and a good degree of bias, but the broad facts of this case (and two more) are my focus.
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Afrofem wrote: “I understand your viewpoint. My primary interest is in instances of predominantly Black juries (plural) acquitting Black murder/manslaughter defendants of killing Asian Americans.”
I see, you want to give him more rope to hang himself?
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@ gro jo
We shall see. Can Kiwi connect factual information to allegations?
We shall see….
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@ Kiwi
One case does not a pattern make. The tell in your comment was attempting to conflate OJ Simpson and the one predominantly Black jury acquittal you could unearth.
Once again, you made allegations (plural) you could not back up. You hurled yourself into a vortex of phony “facts”, bluster and exaggeration.
When you develop the patience to read and reflect before writing I will consider your words credible.
When you develop the courage to write:
“I didn’t know that…”
“I was wrong…”
“I stand corrected…”
I will know your ideas and their expression are worthy of consideration.
A good example is how Abagond handled pushback in a post about Nigeria in 2007. In the comments to that post, he handled criticism with grace, humility, and an open mind.
Bluster has its place in life (we’ve all used it on occasion). When it becomes a crutch, it diminishes you.
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Kiwi,
Where does your buddy Abagond stand in your diatribe against Blacks? Is he the exception that proves the rule?
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@Kiwi
LOL, I’m deceitful? I have been completely honest about my opinion. I think the protests and protesters are ridiculous. You can be charged with a crime merely for reckless discharge of a firearm much less killing someone in the process. Protesting the manslaughter conviction of a cop who shot another person to death with hardly a hint of any extenuating circumstance (an arrest in progess, self-defense) is borderline psychopathic if one doesn’t allow for groupthink. Only groupthink could get thousands of people to join such a cause. Nonetheless, I don’t claim that *only* Asians are capable of it.
There is a point in the legal process where information will be presented to the judge to shed light on Liang’s character so that the judge can consider that in sentencing. Liang could end up being sentenced to time served for all we know. Johannes Mehserle, convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the shooting of Oscar Grant, was sentenced to two years and was out in about 6 months after double credit for time served.
Since Liang hasn’t been sentenced, what the protesters are essentially saying is that he did nothing wrong and should have been exonerated. However, that is patently untrue. He did several things wrong that night which culminated in someone’s death. He wasn’t scapegoated. He was the primary person at fault. Even if you kill someone without malice, as in dunk driving, you can be held accountable.
If you say the protests are justified you’re implicitly supporting their cause. However, it’s a cause that only makes “sense” through ethnically self-interested lenses. I had problems, not with ethnic self-interest but, with the genuinely deceitful claim that the protesters sought “justice” because Liang was treated unfairly (scapegoated etc.). What the protesters actually wanted was *special* treatment because Liang’s Asian and a police officer. One can certainly wonder whether there would have been a miscarriage of justice if Liang were white, but protesting FOR one when he’s Asian and claiming that’s a just cause is … just silly.
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“One can certainly wonder whether there would have been a miscarriage of justice if Liang were white, but protesting FOR one when he’s Asian and claiming that’s a just cause is … just silly.”
.
Well not exactly silly, Origin. Not if these protesting Asians had swallowed the *blue* pill. That’s the pill – if digested – that says vis-a-vis with Black and other non-white people, Asians ARE indeed the Model Minority, and as such Liang should have received the same immunity (cover-up, deniability, diversion, etc) a regular white person would have in this type of situation!
They are playing the (unspoken) Model Minority card.
What other leg can these protesters be standing on? Well.. besides being silly?
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@Fan …
You almost got me there after to first sentence, lol. I suspect that the “model minority” notion played a role in starting the whole thing. I saw a clip of someone speaking at the protests (he might have been a retired Asian-American cop…can’t remember his name) and he mentioned that Asian-Americans have traditionally focused on making money and aren’t as politically involved as other groups but that doesn’t mean that they should be “punished for being good citizens”. Clearly, with the Liang verdict, he didn’t feel that Asians got enough respect for being “model” citizens. They had to show that they’re not too passive to protest for the “right” that proves you’ve really “arrived” in America: the license to kill n…..
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@Fan
A “regular white person”. That is at the heart of the pro-Liang protests. Some (Northeast) Asian Americans certainly see themselves as “regular white persons”. In a thoughtful and nuanced article, writer Connie Zhou discusses the broad assumptions that some Asian Americans make about identity and how she worked out how she sees herself.
http://www.connie-zhou.com/asian-american-awakening/
Early in her piece, Ms. Zhou, writes these revealing words:
Perhaps the pro-Liang protesters have chosen the second option.
They just can’t figure out why (or how long) they will have to jostle in line with pale-skinned Latinos, Arabs and some Black bi-racials at the “White American” gate. Haven’t they proven they can hate Black folk as much as their Euro-descent neighbors? Haven’t they demonstrated they too can say anti-Black slurs with abandon and shoot Black people without a shred of remorse?
What on earth is taking so long? When will those lustrous pearl inlaid gates finally open for the deserving?
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Da fuq kind of Kool Aid she’s been drinking? She doesn’t speak for this Asian-Canadian. I knew from the get-go I wasn’t white. Earth shattering? Please.
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Connie Zhou sounds white washed.
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@leigh204
I think it was that heavy duty, extra fruity Kool Aid. LOL!
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If John Yoo were charged and convicted for his war crimes, I highly doubt that Asian Americans would quietly accept the punishment as fitting the crime. No, they would cry “racial bias” and “scapegoating”.
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That makes at least one commenter on this thread alone who unabashedly applies the scapegoating dodge, revealing how poorly he understands its definition or how it is applied. It’s sad how some stereotypes are seen as justification to get away with crimes against lesser breeds. If a Black is left to bleed to death while the Asian perp, gambling on the Black Criminal stereotype, spent his time trying to cover his ass, only Asians with a sense of misplaced racial superiority would take to the street and demand that their boy not be punished for his crime.
That is one aspect that Whites and Asians have in common: the willingness to apply the same racial stereotypes to Blacks (and other “third” races). Lesson learned.
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Kiwi has serious comprehension problems, or rather, deliberately misinterprets other people’s posts in order to construct strawmen. To use Kiwi’s example, if I say that the “black criminal” stereotype has been internalized by some black people that doesn’t mean I am supporting the stereotype. Likewise, saying that some Asians seem, by their actions and words, to have accepted the model minority stereotype does not mean that I am endorsing it. That should be obvious if Kiwi weren’t desperately looking to manufacture evidence that black people are racist against Asians.
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@gro jo
” It’s sad how some stereotypes are seen as justification to get away with crimes against lesser breeds. If a Black is left to bleed to death while the Asian perp, gambling on the Black Criminal stereotype, spent his time trying to cover his ass”
Your comment reminded me of this:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-peter-liang-didn-realize-gurley-shot-lawyer-article-1.2525596
Excerpt:
……………………….
“The prosecutor also seethed recalling Liang’s testimony that he felt the need to draw his firearm in the stairwell of the Pink Houses because they are “high-crime areas.”
“Not everyone has the luxury of living a doorman building, the defendant would have you believe the Pink Houses is full of criminals,” Alexis said.”
……………………….
Since it was part of his defense, I would agree that Liang was “gambling on the black criminal stereotype.” Clearly he had to have his gun at the ready to be able to execute those criminals at a moment’s notice. It would appear that things went according to plan…except the part where he would be acquitted and keep his job. Time to protest!
[Abagond: A similar previous post did not show up. Please ignore/delete it if it was queued]
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Calling Liang a victim as pretending Liang just made mistakes was one of the most disgusting protests I’ve seen in my life. It was not a mistake when Liang:
– entered a building he was told not to enter without cause
– drew his gun when he had no reason (and even though his partner did not)
– shot an innocent, unarmed person
– failed to call 911 in accordance with procedure
– contacted the Police Union before the paramedics
This was a SERIES of intentional wrongdoings. Not some random mistakes. And every person calling Liang a victim and making excuses for his illegal and unconscionable acts should be ashamed.
@Kiwi
“The fact that he was indicted, not to mention convicted, means that something more was at play, perhaps anti-Asian bias.”
Ha! Basically you want Liang to have the same unfair privileges that many whites get. Asians might be white America’s model minority, but make no mistake, you’re not honourary whites.
I hope this serves as Asian America’s wake up call
“If Obama were charged and convicted for his war crimes, I highly doubt that Black Americans would quietly accept the punishment as fitting the crime. No, they would cry “racial bias” and “anti-Blackness”:
You’ve really shocked me today. So the gist of your argument is black people would do the same for one of their own?
Not only is it a straw man argument but it is disgusting to even attempt to justify defending a murder of an unarmed, innocent person and then leaving him to bleed to death whilst trying to get the STORY straight.
I’ve never seen any massive protests of blacks defending the a black officer’s unarmed killing of any non-black people.
So you have no basis whatsoever to suggest blacks would act in such a disgusting manner.
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Kiwi’s evasions and lies are wearying. His morally superior than thou act is risible, in light of the fact that he’s just a tawdry little ethnic politician. Kiwi, your lame arguments will fly among your fellow Chinese, but not here. The fact that you persist in making them here, is sign of your contempt for most of the readers of this blog. Yes, indeed, Grandpa, Sheriff Harry Lee would have been proud of you for keeping up the family tradition of spitting on Blacks, while playing the I’m Chinese, I can’t be racist tune.
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Strange, I found not one post on famed Chinese-American racist, Sheriff Harry Lee on this blog! Abagond, are you afraid of offending groupies like Kiwi?
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“And every person calling Liang a victim and making excuses for his illegal and unconscionable acts should be ashamed.”
“”You’ve really shocked me today.”
@resw
He did??? LOL
I thought Kiwi’s almost always questionable comments (complaints!) here was such a regularity, that most everyone who frequently views them could be surprised, much less shocked.
Aside from that, your comment rips to shreds his incessant nonsensical arguments, and questionable tactics.
I don’t think Kiwi knows what SHAME is, as he has said some quite remarkably shameful things during his time here – and he still goes on and on.
I wonder sometimes if the Energizer Bunny was modeled after him?
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*couldn’t be surprised …
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@Fan
I suppose I haven’t been as observant…
But there’s no excuse for defending the evil acts Liang committed and telling us with no evidence that blacks would do it for one of their own too. It doesn’t get much more racist than that.
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“But there’s no excuse for defending the evil acts Liang committed and telling us with no evidence that blacks would do it for one of their own too. It doesn’t get much more racist than that.”
Most shocking has been the diplomatic silence of our genial host, Julian Abagond, on the racist insults of his favorite acolyte.
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@gro jo
I don’t believe silence is necessarily acquiescence and I don’t think there’s any reason to believe Abagond would agree with Kiwi’s arguments here.
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“I suppose I haven’t been as observant…”
@resw
Well, you might remember reading Kiwi’s very outspoken:
1. Warning that a Black reparations payout would further erode the relationships between Black folks and other non-white people.
2. Questioning whether a Black celebration on social media (twitter?) should go forward because some folks might impersonate Black people. His over-the-top commentary was given as an offensive PATRIARCHAL warning to Black people here. Even Linda came down on him hard for that one, and she isn’t Black!
3. Excessive complaints against IR pairings regarding Asian women and white males. Time and time and time and time again!
4. Waxing on and on and on about the double standard “racist” Black people supposedly have, AND his keeping with the white supremacist’s idea/definition of who can be racist. Guess he never took “Racism 101.”
5. Defense of Peter Liang and a bunch of other related assorted nonsense..as you yourself have aptly pointed out.
6. There are others! But I’m mentioning only the ones I found the most annoying. Kiwi loves to set himself up for arguing/fighting.
I doubt if he’s ever met an argument or fight he couldn’t refuse!!!!
To his credit, he has gotten a few things right. One example is his calling out Lord of Mirkwood for his racial blindness.
Ally?
Not much!
With allies like him, who needs racists? 🙂
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“I don’t believe silence is necessarily acquiescence and I don’t think there’s any reason to believe Abagond would agree with Kiwi’s arguments here.”
I used the term “diplomatic silence” to reflect the fact that he doesn’t acquiesce or approve, but he does tolerate.
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@Fan
I really haven’t paid much attention to those specific arguments made by Kiwi, but would you agree that his defense of Liang’s murder of an innocent, unarmed person (and accusation of blacks hypothetically defending one of their own) is worst?
@gro jo
Got it. I think it’s good when blog owners tolerate readers expressing their views. And I don’t think Abagond should be expected to rebuke every comment with which he disagrees.
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Fan @ Questioning whether a Black celebration on social media (twitter?) should go forward because some folks might impersonate Black people. His over-the-top commentary was given as an offensive PATRIARCHAL warning to Black people here. Even Linda came down on him hard for that one, and she isn’t Black!
Linda says,
Fan, I’m not white, chica 🙂
I know in South Africa, I would be called “coloured” because I’m mixed-race
and you’re right, I’m not black American either but I define myself as both “black & brown” because that represents my identity as a Jamaican/Caribbean Latina.
so, it’s not a stretch for me to be offended by anti-blackness directed at any group of people who are African-descendants or who identify as black
being an immigrant to the USA and having traveled extensively, the one thing I have learned and what I try to do — is to sometimes stay neutral and try to see things from all sides… because everything is not always “black or white”
maybe that’s why I come off as so vanilla… but that’s OK, I can live with that
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@ linda
“maybe that’s why I come off as so vanilla… but that’s OK, I can live with that”
.
If I implied by my comment that you were a white person, that was not my intention. You don’t sound or seem vanilla, to me. My apologies.
BTW, I’m not a chica, or a chico.. I’m just an everyday (tired) Black male who grew up living in the USA.
@ resw
“…would you agree that his defense of Liang’s murder of an innocent, unarmed person (and accusation of blacks hypothetically defending one of their own) is worst?”
I don’t know. I’m not sure which one of Kiwi’s misfirings is worse. They all come off as ridiculous and atrocious, to me.
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Fan, no insult taken … sir 🙂
(for whatever reason, I have you lumped in with the African crew, Taotesan and Villagewriter)
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“for whatever reason, I have you lumped in with the African crew, Taotesan and Villagewriter”
.
Linda, you may continue to lump me in with our esteemed African crew.
I consider that an honor as I’m all for growing greater relationships with the people in our diaspora! 🙂
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@Kiwi
“Exactly! That’s why I have over a hundred posts calling for Liang’s verdict to be overturned…”
Oh, was it also sarcasm when you suggested it was a display of ” anti-Asian bias”? You can’t have it both ways.
“They do. Joel Lee was proof of that but multiple Black commenters preferred to excuse his murder rather than admit to the racial bias in his killer’s acquittal. I found that sickening. But I see you do not”
Oh, “multiple black commenters” (who you really don’t know are black) represent black people? How sound is that logic?
And for the record I don’t even know who Joel Lee is. I just googled that name and nothing about killing or racial bias appeared in the first 10 results.
“You’ve also never seen any massive protests by Blacks condemning the acquittal of Blacks who murdered non-Blacks.”
Of course that’s another straw man argument, but I’ll play along. Which blacks were acquitted of murdering non-blacks? Can you give an example?
“Abagond stated that he believes Peter Liang is likely a scapegoat. I agreed with that, too. What I find absolutely fascinating is that in all of the posts aimed at me, not one commenter decided to confront Abagond.”
It could be because I and perhaps others agree with it too.
It still doesn’t excuse Liang for the heinous, illegal things that he actually did do. And so he absolutely deserves what he got and a lot more.
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Kiwi, you’re back? I feared we’d lost you for good. I thought you had decided to take my advice about perpetuating the Chinese race, but, no, here you are, pushing the same silly sh*t you’ve been pushing since Sun 21 Feb 2016 at 03:34:50.
” I would chalk it up to racial bias (as made clear by gro jo’s racist comments about Asians, which Abagond deleted), but it would be met with the usual refrain that Blacks can’t be racist.”
Our genial host deleted my comments and didn’t have the decency to tell me so, yet, he left your reply to said comments! No doubt, he was playing his role of unpaid, unelected, incompetent racial arbiter.
Anyway, welcome back. I can’t wait to unleash as much malice as I can, your way.
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Kiwi, was your long absence due to your pilgrimage to the grave of your venerable ancestor, Grandpa, Sheriff Harry Lee?
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“Oh, multiple Asian protestors represent Asians? How sound is that logic?
And yeah, you’re right. I “really don’t know” that Afrofem has identified herself as a Black female and gro jo has identified himself as a Black male. I must not have paid attention, just like you.”
More racist groupthink on your part.
NOTE TO THE CHILDISH ASIAN FASCIST: GRO JO IS INDEED A BLACK MALE, BUT HIS OPINIONS ARE HIS ALONE. HE MAKES NO CLAIM TO REPRESENT “BLACKS” IN GENERAL.
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“Right. The guy who excuses Obama killing Middle Eastern men, women, and children as not being racist wants to talk about shame.”
Kiwi, as soon as you condemn John Yoo for the same crime, I’ll join you in condemnation of Obama. I’ve invited you to do so a number of times. Why the reticence?
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Goodness gracious, you are obsessed. The last person to give me this kind of attention was biff, who we all knew to be a racist White troll. Get a life.”
Why do you refuse to denounce John Yoo for his part in the torture of Middle Eastern people? Don’t tell me that you’re being a hypocrite, I’d be so disappointed.
How did your visit at the grave of Grandpa, Sheriff Harry Lee go? Was the entire family there? I hope they didn’t give you too hard a time for taking so long to reproduce the race. You really should give serious consideration to my suggestion concerning a nice Chinese peasant lass as a bride. Save the poor girl from a life as a drone in some sweatshop run by a latter day Chinese Gradgrind. Of course I’m obsessed with you, you are such fascinating combination of cant and arrogance. Rest assured, you’ll have my undivided attention, as long as we run into each other on this blog.
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@Kiwi
“Oh, was it also sarcasm when commenters suggested…”
Another straw man. It has nothing to do with the conviction of Liang and/or “anti-Asian bias” ?
“Afrofem has identified herself as…”
I forgot, no one has ever lied about their identity on the wholesome internet. But your weak logic suggests they represent black America’s opinion. Got it.
“Oh, multiple Asian protestors represent Asians? How sound is that logic?”
Too bad I never made that claim, so you’ll have to try again. What I said about those protesters was that they were disgusting, as well as you and anyone else who defends Peter Liang.
“Exactly! If the media doesn’t cover something all that well, that means it never happened.”
No, it means I don’t know who or what you’re talking about and therefore have not formed an opinion on it. Therefore the silly assumption you drew about me was completely without basis.
“I already did that, but it turns out you don’t care enough to read it.”
Right, I don’t care to read each of the 250+ comments. But whatever you’re referring to is still a straw man.
Don’t forget that your whole argument was blacks would protest in support of one of their own if such person behaved like Peter Liang. I shouldn’t have to tell you that your pointing to what blacks did not protest against is a straw man.
“Precisely! When a Black person says it, that’s okay.”
Haha! You’re funny. FYI, I did not affirmatively comment on Abagond’s or anyone else’s remarks about scapegoating. So your remark was asinine.
The purpose of my comments here was to voice my DISagreement with you over specific things you said that I disagreed with. And btw, I have voiced my disagreement with things that abagond, gro jo and many others have said. It has nothing to do with whatever race you or they claim to be.
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@resw
I actually am an African American female.
I don’t speak for Black America by a long shot.
I only speak from my own observations, experiences and understanding.
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@resw, didn’t you used to go by resw77? If so, why did you “86”, 77
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@Afrofem
I really don’t doubt it. But Kiwi should be aware that there are many people posing as black online, and 2 commenters are hardly representative of black America.
@gro jo
Yes, the 77 is really unnecessary. I’m sure the regulars can easily deduce it’s the same person.
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@Kiwi
You’re going in circles. In my first comment, I quoted exactly what you said that I disagreed with (and contradicts your other statement about his verdict being just), and all you’ve done was offered more straw man arguments, and racist, baseless assumptions about blacks in defense of the mostly Asian American protesters you’re trying to defend.
So, yes you and they are both disgusting.
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“So, yes you and they are both stupid.” A case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Rejoice my childish Asian fascist friend, the DA is calling for leniency for your trigger happy fellow Chinese American. Grandpa Harry Lee can rest in peace now. Chinese Americans just had their status confirmed as honorary whites. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/da-recommends-no-prison-for-n-y-officer-in-fatal-stairwell-shooting-akai-gurley-peter-liang/).
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“because of your own racial bias, like other Black commenters.
So, yes you and they are both stupid.”
.
The way Kiwi expresses himself, it appears to him that it’s just the Black commenters who possess a racial bias, and are – wait for it – stupid.
REALLY…
Is this your *model minority* thinking coming to the surface? Can’t keep your slime hidden undercover, can you Kiwi? The gross bs always surfaces!
Black commenters are STUPID? Your true (HATEFUL) colors are showing.
Obviously, 10,000 asians are racially biased for Peter L.
So tell us again why it’s okay for y’all to be biased, but Blacks being biased for Blacks is wrong?
Are you using the same nonsensical irrational logic that caused you to utter that Black reparations will cause other minorities to distance themselves from Black people?
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@Fan…
I think it was already clear how racist and disgusting Kiwi is when it suggested blacks would act as disgusting as these protesters by supporting a murderer.
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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/brooklyn-da-won-t-seek-prison-peter-liang-after-conviction-n544491
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@veritasvenustas
…just as I suspected would happen and way too lenient…
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Let’s hope the judge doesn’t agree. There is a lot of scope for punishment between 0 and 15 years.
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@Kiwi
I have not expressed my opprobrium and utter disgust at Barack Obama’s foreign policy, esp as regards Guantanamo, the Afghanistan war of which I am not totally informed to make (any) strong commentary, the droning of innocents in Pakistan, the omission of declaration to the American public of the status of Diego Garcia, the deposing of Quaddafi, the destabilization of South American countries, and so on, on Abagond’s Blog. Possibly my strong feelings against the President’s foreign policy may exceed yours. I have made oblique criticism on him, if I recall on the Marilyn Mosby thread, calling him a disappointment of a man. The USA’s support of the Israeli ‘apartheid’ settler government and treatment of Palestinians is nothing short of iniquitous and very reminiscent of Reagan’s support of apartheid.
I have not fully stated my total repugnance of American imperialism on Abagond’s blog yet, (until now) and it is not lukewarm.
I had objected to you referring to Black commenters on this blog and the President of the United States, Barack Obama as ‘racist pieces of sh*t. And here you are, trying to include me in your posse of ‘stupid, racist Black people.’
Abagond’s writing is prolific and there are many subjects that I might agree with (and simply be informed) and not comment as much as there quite a few that I disagree with (and still enjoy reading) and do not comment, too
Could you rather not use me to prop up your arguments?
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@taotesan
Like.
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The paranoid childish Asian fascist is back. “He has to prove that he is not racially biased. Liang will get jail time.” I hope you’re right, Liang deserves it. If he gets no time, Blacks should block traffic for a week to protest the “Asian” bias of the judge.
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“To tell you the truth, Fan’s and taotesan’s defense of Obama, who has killed thousands of innocent Middle Eastern men, women, and children, is far more disgusting than anything I could have ever said on this blog. Your selective outrage, however, speaks volumes of your own racial bias.”
Your refusal to condemn John Yoo for the same crimes you impute to Obama is a disgusting cant on your part.
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“To tell you the truth, Fan’s and taotesan’s defense of Obama, who has killed thousands of innocent Middle Eastern men, women, and children, is far more disgusting than anything I could have ever said on this blog.”
.
Kiwi, your lying ways matches the worst trolls to ever visit this site.
You’re pulling nonsense (make-believe BS) out of your butt.
If I have defended Obama’s killing of men, women and children then it should be a simple enough matter to provide the link where I said what you saying I said.
But wait! I know your methods well enough to know that if I DID state a defense of Obama in the way that you say, you would have already dragged the proof of the alleged defense into your baseless comment. So where did I say what you’re claiming, Kiwi?
STOP LYING, and twisting words to mean things that weren’t stated.
Learn to read and improve your utterly poor reading comprehension skills!
Try to stop looking like an idiot.
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@kiwi
Link???
Otherwise sthu!
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@ Kiwi
What has Fan…. and my stance on Barack Obama have to do with a Chinese American policeman murdering an African American man in cold blood?
@Fan…. I had read Kiwi’s objections on reparations. What I had noticed, and I may be wrong, in spite of Kiwi’s general disrespect and disdain for Black commenters and his rigorous adherence to the(white) dictionary definition of racism, insisting upon the (Black) victims of it that they, too are perpetrators of it, not one Black commenter has called him a “racist piece of sh*t. To date, I think he has inaccurately accused about five Black people of racism, yet if one scans his commentary against the many white trolls and racists I think he has been taciturn in calling any of them ‘racist pieces of sh*t’.
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@ taotesan
kiwi is like a pesky gnat at best. Irritating and hardly worth the bother he attempts to put upon the audience here.
Like a troll, his only significance is to attempt to incessantly annoy others.
Automatic swats and brushes are the way to go.
Perhaps if we ignore it, it will be attracted away to some other distant light where he can do what it does best. Behave as a sullen heathen gnat!
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@taotesan @Fan
Double Like. (many chuckles)
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“@ Kiwi
What has Fan…. and my stance on Barack Obama have to do with a Chinese American policeman murdering an African American man in cold blood?”
Whoa, Liang didn’t commit murder, but manslaughter. The DA was lenient toward him by not charging him with second degree murder, for not doing all he could to help Mr. Gurley, but that was too much for a large segment of the Chinese American community, nothing short of full impunity, like that extended to whites, would do.
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@Kiwi
“To tell you the truth, Fan’s and taotesan’s defense of Obama…Your selective outrage, however, speaks volumes of your own racial bias.”
This is a post about Peter Liang, not Obama. But thanks for yet another deflection that shows your racism and disgusting defense of people supporting a murderer.
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@ Afrofem and Fan…
ROTFWL!
@Fan…
Don’t corrupt me. 🙂
You have painted a picture in my head, and now I can’t get rid of it.
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@ gro jo
“Whoa, Liang didn’t commit murder, but manslaughter.”
I stand to be corrected then.
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Update (March 30th): Sentencing is next month. There have been nationwide protests in favour of Liang. The judge, Danny Chun, is Korean American. Liang could get up to 15 years. Ken Thompson, though, is now saying Liang should get NO prison time! Thompson might be getting heat from the police union.
More:
http://www.amny.com/opinion/columnists/leonard-levitt/what-s-behind-the-prosecutor-s-move-in-peter-liang-s-case-1.11626808
This whole thing makes me sick.
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“Thompson might be getting heat from the police union. ”
There shouldn’t be a way for the UNION to put any heat on him. He’s not in their union. Unless the type of heat you’re referring to is some sort of ILLEGAL heat?
I suspect Ken Thompson falls under Prof Bell’s 4th Law of Racial Standing!
But I could be incorrect.
Anywho, I wonder if he’d be so outspoken/forgiving had Liang’s accidental (by not following proper police protocol) bullet expired one of his own children?
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smh….The world we live in when people want to be given leniency for killing someone.
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@Kiwi
Again, this is about Peter Liang. Learn to stay on topic.
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@Kiwi
Stop deflecting. This is about Peter Liang.
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Fan wrote:
“Obama bombing Middle Eastern women and children does not make the typical victim of racism a racist. Being a murderer and ally with with white people doesn’t necessarily make one a racist.”
@ Kiwi
Thank you for removing any doubt that your light challenged, cracked bulb is without a doubt defective!
AND – for proving that you absolutely lack reading comprehension skills.
This is worse than when you accused Mack Lyons for being a racist over some drivel that ONLY YOU imagined. But then, calling Black people racist is your thing of late! What rational person comes to a place and surrounds himself with RACISTS???
I called Obama a murderer (because of the blood on his hands). This, to you, is a defense of Obama????
How pathetic (and strange) YOU are, Kiwi!
The only thing disgusting around here is your diminished intellect.
I have to admit though, the blog smelled much nicer during your break.
You should take more of them.
Anywho –
What makes your boy, Liang, a murderer is that he didn’t give a sh*t about saving a man’s life after he shot him. His only thought was about how he was going to cover-up his own wrong *ss. That makes him a racist, by following the moves from the WHITENESS (how to cover-up a killing of a Black person) playbook.
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least the *ricochet* /accident was a cover-up/lie.
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@Fan
A mystery for the ages. LOL!
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Wow, it really sounds like the police problem is a lot worse going in South Carolina than it is in New York.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2016/04/01/video-shows-white-cops-performing-roadside-cavity-search-of-black-man/
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@ King
“cavity search” = rape
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^ Rape in plain site right on the side of the road! What kind of cop wants to do unnecessary anal probes of another man????
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@veritasvenustas
“What kind of cop wants to do unnecessary anal probes of another man????”
The sadistic, “I want to humiliate Black people” to feel good about himself kind.
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I am not unconvinced that there is not a twisted sexual element involved.I’d bet my paycheck that these guys get aroused by these kind of sexual violations of Black people.
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Abagond said,
“Ken Thompson, though, is now saying Liang should get NO prison time!”
From his Wikipedia page, “As an Assistant U.S. Attorney, Thompson was a member of the federal prosecution team. His team got former New York City Police Department Officer Justin Volpe, who sodomized Abner Louima inside a bathroom at the 70th Precinct in Brooklyn, to plead guilty during the middle of his trial.”
So he has some history of prosecuting police officers. Why the change of heart ? Maybe he has a sense of how the judge will be ruling and he wants to put it out their now before the outcome to try to defuse potential demonstrations against a “no jail time” sentence.
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Kiwi said,
“Just you proving your disgusting racial bias yet again.”
I think everybody has varying degrees of racial bias because we live in a world defined by race. In my opinion if racial bias causes harm then its rooted in power and needs to be opposed.
I am more worried about the future of Blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. then I am of Asians. I understand that my thinking is racist. But that doesn’t mean that I discriminate against Asians or treat people of Asian descent differently then anybody else. In fact I have economic partnerships with many within the Asian community and the transfer of capital flows back and forth between my business and their business’s on a weekly basis. That creates the illusion of equality within my world view even though I know that Asians are envied and can be discriminated against elsewhere.
I think that white racial bias is the default of white supremacy and it is within that context that racial bias causes harm. If Blacks were to attempt to collectively reject white supremacy within the U.S. that movement would be immediately squashed because whites hold all the power. It is that monopoly of force systemically hard wired into American institutions that empowers white racism to control and manipulate other groups.
So when whites object to “Black Lives Matter” and call BLM racist its a deflection because BLM doesn’t have the power the change white racism. Similarly Blacks who show racial bias can’t act on it in any significant way because they do not have the power to change much in a white controlled society.
Their is a Black poster who occasionally posts here on Abagond’s blog. He refuses to engage or have conversations with white people. I respect his space, don’t engage him and I don’t see his racial bias as disgusting. That’s part of how we are to coexist with people, we respect their beliefs even if we don’t agree with them. If they are not interfering with your life, then why interfere with theirs ?
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@King: Cavity searches on the side of the road is disgusting. I hope that person gets a lawyer and sues that police department.
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@Michael Jon Barker
I agree. That is not just a theoretical agreement, either. The Black Panther Party (BPP) was an organization that attempted to organize the Black community and create an alternative to White Supremacy in the US.
Their efforts so disturbed the Powers That Be that they were branded a threat to the government, demonized in the media, their organization crushed, their members murdered, chased out of the country or imprisoned.
Even to this day, government entities at all levels (local, state and federal) go to great lengths to keep imprisoned BPP members locked away and silenced.
One example of this obsession is the case of political prisoner, Albert Woodfox, held for more than 43 years in solitary confinement.
http://www.democracynow.org/embed/story/2016/2/22/exclusive_interview_albert_woodfox_of_angola
Other ethnic groups seem to be blind to the ways Black people are kept at the bottom terrace of oppression in this country. As an example, I wonder how much wealth the Iranian-American community could accumulate if the Powers That Be targeted their community for daily police harassment, locked up their children in middle and high school, broke down their doors and murdered their families in an overblown War on Drugs that seemed to be a War On Them?
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“Similarly Blacks who show racial bias can’t act on it in any significant way because they do not have the power to change much in a white controlled society. ”
Really? So, if a black surgeon hated white people and wanted to kill as many as he wanted to, he couldn’t kill them while operating on them and ascribe their deaths to bad luck or incompetence? You are way too theoretical.
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Gro Jo said,
“You are way too theoretical.”
Agreed. That sentence is a bit ambiguous.
But lets go with your example. So he kills 200 people before being discovered. Nothing changes in society except maybe some whites decide not to go to Black doctors.
Blacks could boycott white business across the country and pool their resources. But if any significant wealth was built up the government would call it organized crime or domestic terrorism and go after it as has happened in the past.
I hold to the idea that racism is race plus power and was attempting to subtly point to that in my comments. So what I’m getting at is even if Blacks act or say racist things it doesn’t have the same effect that white racism has in our society.
So when Kiwi accuses some of racism, to me it doesn’t have any substance.
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@ Mary
Disgusting, but evidently, not isolated.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/14/us/texas-woman-search/#
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If you believe racism is prejudice + power, then I suppose the idea of Blacks being racist doesn’t compute. However, I think that Blacks can at least be prejudice. However, even that these days is considered un-PC. Apparently, Blacks can only be “biased” or “preferential”, even calling a Black person bigoted seems to be unfavorable to do.
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ANYONE can be prejudiced, biased, preferential, hateful or bigoted.
ANYONE can be unreasonable, blind, deaf, dumb, stupid, stupid, ignorant, politically incorrect (whatever this means) or an a#s-h*le!
But everyone cannot be a racist.
Racism 101
Dr. Joy DeGruy
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^ Based on using a “special” definition of racism.
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Is white supremacy a special definition ? Is it subjective to personal interpretation or is it a real thing? Do we go with what white people would like racism to be or the last 400 years of history ?
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All I am pointing out is what I have always pointed out.
if you are going to argue that the definition of racism in all of the english dictionaries in the world is wrong because white people created the english language and english dictionaries, then there really can be no talking about racism at all. The ultimate argument is that, “We’re not racist because we reject the english language definition of racism, and have come up with another definition in which we cannot be racist.” But if Blacks can do that so can everybody. Every race can simply define racism to suit themselves.
I’m as anti-White supremacist as anyone! But this argument of redefining something so that it doesn’t include your own people is a bad way of trying to explain it away.
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“I’m as anti-White supremacist as anyone! But this argument of redefining something so that it doesn’t include your own people is a bad way of trying to explain it away.”
.
So…. I’m still waiting for ANYONE to inform me when it was that Black people became racist?
Was it after slavery? Was it during slavery? Was it during during lynchings?
When (might as well explain HOW as well while you’re at it) did Black people go from being victims of racism to becoming racists?
Or were we all always racists? Even while we were living in African nations minding our own business for the most part?
As far as redefining things so that it doesn’t include your own people, we can’t even begin to come close to the MASTERS of redefinitions ..
Guess who that is! Yes, I’m talking about the people who redefined us in so many ways that attempted to make Black people way less than people so that their collective guilt might be assuaged from the horrific things they were doing to us! In labor, in medicine, in religion, in business, in finance, law, education in all manner of pain-filled oppressive mistreatment.
I sometimes wonder how apologists for whiteness (white supremacy) sleep with themselves at night!
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@ Fan…
BRILLIANT COMMENTS!
I will I try add to it later.
In the meantime, in a politically incorrect tone: there ain’t no f*cking white person on this planet f*cking telling me who or what I am.
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@ Fan
You nailed it!
I especially agreed with your question, “When (might as well explain HOW as well while you’re at it) did Black people go from being victims of racism to becoming racists?
I also believe Black people can be bigoted, prejudiced, biased, preferential or hateful. To me, racist means a belief in the the superiority or supremacy of ones own race. It also means supporting the systems that oppress others you deem inferior to your own race.
White people and their allies absolutely hate the term, racist! They have attempted for the past two decades to muddy the definition so that it no longer applies only to them. They also derive a great deal of pleasure in flinging some of that mud on the people they oppress. A neat trick, huh.
The main purpose of calling Black people “racists” is to shut down discussions of uncomfortable topics like race, racial caste systems and White Supremacist power.
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@ michaeljonbarker
Very insightful, indeed!
It is at these moments that I remember how deep is the Marxist description and analysis of capitalist societies, in particular the relationship between social groups (classes) inside those societies and the dynamic between an infrastructure (material basis) and superstructure (ideology, etc) of the same societies.
The ideology of a society is built up so that the social and material relationships inside this society appear as natural! It is like the cement that binds the bricks in a wall. Everything outside that normalcy will be pushed outside or crushed!
Despite the fact that the USA promotes the idea of being a place where everybody is supposed to come in and, at some point, grow to become a successful or even rich person, the fact of the matter is that this society has also an hierarchical structure based on color that assumes that Blacks normally will occupy mainly the lower rungs of that hierarchy. The first part of the last sentence belongs to the explicit component of the USA ideology and the last part belongs to the implicit component (it is not said but it is assumed!).
When the normalcy of a given society is defied, the ruling group (class) will take measures to reestablish it.
A particular episode related to this subject comes to mind and happened in my childhood. My father was what in the colonial Mozambique was called an assimilado (assimilated person), that is an African who was already civilized enough to merit the fully Portuguese citizenship. Africans below the assimilado were called indígenas and were not seen as able to enjoy all the rights of (White) Portuguese citizens. To be an assimilado one had to be able to speak fluently the Portuguese language, be able to read and write (in a place where over 95% of the population was illiterate and when even in mainland Portugal itself, the majority of the population was also illiterate). And to be able to eat a meal on a table, using properly a fork and a knife, was a requirement too!
At some point my father bought a plot of land and later began to build a relatively large house (over six bedrooms, etc). The site was close to an area where Portuguese working families resided and, at some point, some of them went to the authorities complaining about “that rich and snooty Black family over there who nobody knew how it got so wealthy“. The authorities came in to realize that indeed the head of that family was working in a local government department so there was nothing so strange against him! The implicit rule of Black subservience was broken but the explicit rule of promotion of an assimilado class allowed the case to be settled in favor of the “snooty Black“. So, exceptions to the implicit rule had to be accepted.
But not so far, as I learned later, when Mozambique was already an independent nation.
In fact, I saw in a Portuguese TV program about its colonial past, that the politics of the promotion of assimilados had a less known but written rule used by upper echelons of the colonial government (overseas statutory guidelines), which stated that the number of assimilados in each colony could never exceed the total number of the Whites residing there. That rule was needed, it was argued, to help maintain the social peace and to prevent the surge of revolutionary movements in the native population of the colonies.
So, in the one hand they wanted to create and nurture an assimilado class in each colony, and such class functioned as a buffer between the White settlers and the large majority of the rest of natives. But on the other hand, they didn’t trust enough such class so its number had to be kept at the minimum necessary (although this was not an open directive!).
Curious enough, the architect of most of the colonial administration rules in the XXth century, the Portuguese Prime Minister Oliveira Salazar, when foreign critics spoke against the low levels of literacy observed in the Portuguese colonies as well other faults there, retorted that “it requires a whole century to build a citizen (with similar standing and rights as in Europe)“. Translation: the colonial administration was doing the humanly possible to create assimilados. But one should give it more time to increase their numbers!
When I look at these historic facts related to the colonial administration, I cannot help but conclude that they were fully aware of the possible consequences of their decisions and the whole system was well thought in advance (even if subject to also well thought adaptations during its existence!) to maintain a pre-established social order.
Fact of the matter is that despite all their prevention, an anti-colonial war broke up in the beginning of the sixties, first in Portuguese Guinea and later extended to other colonies in Africa. It was a lengthy (more than 10 years) and successful war that ended the Portuguese colonial empire and give birth to new nations in Africa.
And indeed the assimilado class in each of those colonies played a leading role in bringing down the empire, despite their small size!
But to have the whole picture of those historical events it should be said that the contradictions between blocks during the Cold War and the decisive help (weapons and an alternative ideology to interpret social facts => Marxism) of the Soviet Bloc – and China, too, at least partially – played a role too in those historical changes!
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@ Fan …
If you are arguing that Black people have suffered a LOT of injustice around the world and that a lot of of of their actions are reactionary to that injustice, then I agree, and have said the same thing myself plenty of times.
It would be extremely difficult for Black people to be racist in the exact same way that Whites have been racist. But the definition of racism is not based on exactly matching someone else’s racism. It also is not defined by whether or not the ENTIRE group has become racist, or when they became racist. And it is not defined by whether or not anyone else in history has ever twisted or improperly redefined a definition or not.
Racism is an individual thing and is defined by a few simple definitions:
And to say that it is impossible for any Black person to believe that just seems illogical.
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Looking at Black people as if they are some huge group that are in lock step is a mistake, It’s not a question if “the Black people” are racist. The question is if it is IMPOSSIBLE that ANY Black person can be racist or not by virtue of being a Black person. Then, I suppose you have to also ask if Latinos, Arabs and Asians can be racist either?
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A similar (but not identical) question would be: Given the history between the genders, does that make it impossible for any woman to be sexist against man?
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And a final question that occurs to me is can “mixed” people be racist or not?
So if you are Black mixed with White, can you be racist? Or if you are Black, mixed with Asian? How about Black mixed with Latino? And how mixed do you have to be before you can be racist?
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To understand Planck’s constant or Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, the first and last place of reference for me is the Oxford English Dictionary.
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“But the definition of racism is not based on exactly matching someone else’s racism. It also is not defined by whether or not the ENTIRE group has become racist, or when they became racist.”
.
@ King
Who said anything about exactly matching someone else’s racism?
Not me!
The GOALPOST has always been set in ONE location: when (and how) did Blacks become racists???
If Blacks could be racist against white people, we wouldn’t be in the same galaxy, much less universe! It’s on par with a bunch of first graders having the power/ability to STOP(!) the Borg from assimilating them.
Whose definition of racism? The (white supremacist’s) ever refining dictionary???
Are YOU kidding me?
Why can’t an intelligent man such as yourself see how you are being played??
History states that when whites came to Africa, they were met with open arms, not weapons or hegemony – so we obviously weren’t racist then!
(If everyone can be racist, then racism would be canceled out. It wouldn’t exist.
Only bias, hatred, preference, stupidity, ignorance, bigotry and so on would be left. You cannot interchange RACE with any of the above words.
It boils down to each person’s belief of what racism truly is… who/what they’ll believe and so on. I doubt that either on of us is going to be moved from our position – no matter how long or in depth our arguments are. I have better ways to spend my time, sir.
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ANYONE can be unreasonable, blind, deaf, dumb, stupid, stupid, ignorant, politically incorrect (whatever this means) or an a#s-h*le!
This describes me to a tee! Life would be boring without these foibles!
So…. I’m still waiting for ANYONE to inform me when it was that Black people became racist?
1900, a bad year!
I sometimes wonder how apologists for whiteness (white supremacy) sleep with themselves at night!
They sleep quite well as they are sociopathic, they have to be. Perhaps this epidemic of heroin addiction, depressions etc. may be symptomatic in part of their white supremacy? Whites, although many play ignorant, know what they are about regardless of how they portray themselves to you. Get them into a room by themselves and you will see how they really think of you. This concept of ‘Political Correctness’ is a DEFLECTIVE RUSE they employ when trying to shut you down in any talk of white supremacy. The phrase is a new spin on the old flipping the script tenet, something they are adroit at. Same fecal matter, different toilet bowl is all. They certainly have some of us flummoxed eh?
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Experiencing déjà vu.
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My interpretation and take of Abagond’s understanding of Black racism is: I detect a strong moral centre and in that scrupulous moral inventory of shortcomings, names his prejudices and biases as regards white people as racism. Whilst I respect his rigorous and ethical hygiene, the conflation of personal bigotry and prejudice with racism is where i have the strongest disagreement. Racism is not a synonym for bigotry , neither is it a synonym for prejudice.
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@ Fan
But why the “groupthink?”
When did Latinos become racist?” When did Asians become racist?
Are you asking when did an entire RACE become racist? Or are you explaining how all the people within a certain race cannot be racist?
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@ taotesan
Really the LAST place?
http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199233991.001.0001/acref-9780199233991
Just because a Dictionary is not an Encyclopedia does not mean that the words defined in the Dictionary are incorrect. You could take almost anything defined in a dictionary and get a more complete explanation in an Encyclopedia or textbook. But that doesn’t somehow contradict what is in the Dictionary.
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Yes, King, the LAST. And The Oxford English Dictionary is the first, last and only reference to understand RACISM.
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Munubantu said,
“My father was what in the colonial Mozambique was called an assimilado (assimilated person), that is an African who was already civilized enough to merit the fully Portuguese citizenship.”
“Assimilado” is a big deal in the U.S. and is white code for immigrants and POC conforming to white social standards and loosing their cultural identity.
Assimilation is also the talk of Europe with the French saying assimilation isn’t working and Merkel saying “Those who seek refuge with us also have to respect our laws and traditions, and learn to speak German. Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies, and therefore multiculturalism remains a grand delusion.”
In the U.S. this is what you hear.
“The Syrian refugees are too foreign to be able to assimilate into the U.S.” “How do we know they are not terrorist’s ? “Lets ban their burka’s”. “Bringing Muslims to the U.S. is cultural suicide”. “Sharia law threatens the Constitution of the U.S.”
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@ taotesan
I don’t understand your last statement (unless its meant to be sarcasm). If it is sarcasm, it doesn’t answer any of my questions.
I do GET that a dictionary is not an encyclopedia. However, I don’t believe that the fact that encyclopedia articles are more in-depth means that they contradict and give an opposite meaning from that which is in the dictionaries.
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I would be interested in opinions on whether or not women can be sexist against men.
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@ Fan, bear in mind that this is a in-house discussion. People should be allowed to ask questions and challenge widely-held beliefs. It is only by doing this that we either strengthen our held beliefs or find new truths. Every theory must face the razor from time to time.
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“But if any significant wealth was built up the government would call it organized crime or domestic terrorism and go after it as has happened in the past.”
Are you referring to the black policy bankers of Harlem and other Black communities? How strange to see people who sold dope to their people and exploited them lionized in this way. This conversation is getting off topic.
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The white definition of racism presumes that racism is horizontal in society. That all groups have the potential to be equally racist amongst other groups. That no particular group holds a monopoly of power over any other group. It attempts a kind of generic definition but in doing so it deflects away from how white supremacy is constructed.
But the fact is racism is vertical in society and reflects a racial hierarchy with whites at the top and colorism generally designating ones place within the hierarchy from top to bottom.
I don’t believe you can separate racism from white supremacy.
The standard Merriam/Webster dictionary states “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race” and “racial prejudice or discrimination”.
The first definition describes the root of race realism. The second definition is the generic one.
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Blacks have built significant wealth since the inception of the USA. Paul Cuffee was a successful sea captain and businessman. He was one of the richest men of the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cuffee.
There were others as well. The idea that Blacks are or were powerless doesn’t accord with the historical record. They may not have been all powerful, but they weren’t entirely at the mercy of whites either.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
A very wise observation. And this is true, that White racism is MUCH more destructive and much more powerful because it has the power of state and the weight of history behind it. I am not at loggerheads with this reality. All racism is not equal because of this.
BUT… the fact that all racism is not equal does not necessarily mean that only the strongest forms of racism are “real.” Or that less effective exercises of racism are, in reality, something else entirely.
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Gro Po
“Are you referring to the black policy bankers of Harlem and other Black communities? How strange to see people who sold dope … ”
I was referring to Black Wall Street and how it got burnt to the ground. But beyond that their have been plenty of stories about successful Black business, Farms ect that through local State coercion were shut down and their assets eventually ended up in the hands of locale whites.
As far as drugs go if you want to end gang style violence then do away with the prohibition drugs. During the prohibition days their never was a discussion about “white on white crime/violence” only today to bolster racists views of Blacks.
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Of the ‘races’ of the world, which ones can be racist?
Also which ones cannot be racist?
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@ Michael John Barker
At least in Germany public discourse generally uses the term integration.
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This is probably off topic but i find this discourse about which racial group can and can’t be racist is interesting.
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First we were viewed under the racist blood lens, followed by the lens of infidel and sav ge. Then beast of burden. Consequently, under the racist lens, beast and subhuman. Moving up in the “evolutionary ladder” we became primitive, barely above the beast. In the 20 th century under the racist lens, in Jim Crow and apartheid, Black people were dangerous brutes. Under the lens of racist liberalism and bootstrapping, Black people ‘evolved’ into ‘racists’.
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“I was referring to Black Wall Street and how it got burnt to the ground. But beyond that their have been plenty of stories about successful Black business, Farms ect that through local State coercion were shut down and their assets eventually ended up in the hands of locale whites. ”
There were many “Black Wall Streets”, you are probably referring to the Tulsa Oklahoma one. I agree that wealth formation wasn’t promoted for Blacks as it was for Whites. The record on that subject tends in the direction of suppression, as you say, but a few successes are also part of the record.
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“First we were viewed under the racist blood lens, followed by the lens of infidel and sav ge. Then beast of burden. Consequently, under the racist lens, beast and subhuman. Moving up in the “evolutionary ladder” we became primitive, barely above the beast. In the 20 th century under the racist lens, in Jim Crow and apartheid, Black people were dangerous brutes. Under the lens of racist liberalism and bootstrapping, Black people ‘evolved’ into ‘racists’.”
.
Thank you, Taotesan!
If only these were crimes situated in the past! According to cops, we’re still brutes! There’s more outcries in society for lions and puppies killed than there are for unarmed Black people!
Now white cops are permitted to do REGULARLY what all white men were able to do normally during slavery and Jim Crow. They just have to spin it just so.. “I felt threatened, your honor.” Or, “She wanted it. You can’t charge me with rape.. she came on to me and said … plus, she’s on drugs… etc, etc…”
Black people are STILL experimented on. Our bodies are collectively treated differently than white bodies.
A white doctor doesn’t stick 19th century shoe awls into the heads of Black infants anymore. But we still receive injections laced with poisons (vaccines) that’s supposedly GOOD for us.
I could go on, and on and on… but this information is already out there for anyone willing to see it. Sadly, some folks can’t/won’t see what’s directly in front of them! Whatever.
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@ taotesan
I get what you are saying and it I agree about the mistreatment, miscasting, and miseducation, of Black people in White society…
BUT… every other minority group can also go through a long litany of how they have been perceived in society, ending with and “and NOW they see us as racists!” But my question is, does that really mean that they are or aren’t racists?
No matter how you have been misperceived or mischaracterized in the past, it doesn’t follow that this should exclude you from the possibility of being a racist yourself. The real question is what do you [not The Black race[] believe about racial hierarchy and value. and that is an individual question, not a race question.
If YOU believe that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race, then you are racist. It’s not a question of what people thought of your ancestors.
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^”No matter how you have been misperceived or mischaracterized in the past…”
[or present]
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I am on the same page as you, Herneith, Afrofem and Fan… as regards the definition of racism.
Fan… if I may, since I do not think a racist (white is tautological) or any of their allies are going to tell us when Black people became racist.
( In a sketched comparison between SA and the USA).
This is a rough draft of my understanding of that amazing phenomenon where Black People evolved from primitive, beast and subhuman into a fully –fledged human racist, mind you.
I am old enough to remember a world very clearly, when the understanding of who was racist, was not questioned White people were racist. Whites knew they were racist. Apartheid was never meant to end, neither was Jim Crow, if it had not been for the courageous activists and mass movements fight for equal rights.
In the USA, too, there was no ambiguity about who was the racist during Jim Crow.
Now, in the US ,as you obviously know, the Black Panthers and other civil rights campaigners had struggled, fought and overcame for human rights and many freedoms previously denied to African Americans.
I think there were a few white movements in the 60’s where the simultaneous victory of the Civil rights activists and new human rights were undermined and sabotaged by the left liberal controlled institutions, by the FBI”s COINTELPRO, which many activists believe is still in effect today; the well-known sociologist, Norman Glazer, who studied European immigration and contributed their success to bootstrapping and compared them to African Americans and in such a way, voila! white Americans were off the hook; and in late 60’s George Wallace (Donald Trump, the modern day version) the Alabama governor, and presidential candidate , in the Southern Strategy , whipped up Democratic base by laying it that Black Americans were’ reverse racists’ because of affirmative action. ( also read Republican strategist Lee Atwater and code language).
When FBI effectively smashed the Civil Rights movements, the liberal controlled institutions began to redefine the meaning of the term ‘racism’.
In South Africa, just after apartheid supposedly ended, Black people instantly ‘evolved’ from stupid, lazy animals to ‘racists’.
In short, Black people became racist after Jim Crow and apartheid ended and when affirmative action was applied as redress.
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@Fan…
I have one response to you in moderation.
@King
I usually shut down when I think I am being lectured to.
(to be fair, I will reread the tone to remove any doubt and respond accordingl).
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@taotesan
Now I’m the one experiencing déjà vu!
I totally agree. Racism as I understand it is different from bigotry, prejudice and bias.
It seems there are differing opinions about and definitions of racism. It would be better if everyone shared the same definition. Yet, I understand that would be humanly impossible, since everyone brings different experiences, viewpoints and thought processes to the table.
White people and their allies have purposely muddied the meaning of the term racist to generic mush so that it no longer applies only to them. I believe they have re-engineered the definition so that they can more easily shut down discussions of uncomfortable topics like race, racial caste systems and White Supremacist power. These are topics they do not want examined or challenged.
Sometimes discussion leads to enlightenment and transformational change—-and they certainly don’t want that to occur.
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@Hernieth
Spoken from someone who has traversed a lot of polluted water in her trusty hip waders!
I’ve found that to be true also.
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@taotesan
It is near impossible for two people to discuss opposing points of view without someone feeling, at some point that they are being either disrespected or lectured to. Lest this become a tone argument debate, rather than a discussion among friends, lets both just assume that neither one of us is intentionally being either sarcastic or didactic.
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@ King
I am not going to mince my words.
White people are the racists. If you want their lobbed grenade, have it. Only, do not throw it my way.
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Actually I checked in 3 online thesauruses and “bigotry” and “prejudice” come up as synonyms of racism in all three. I then dusted off my trusty Roget’s Thesaurus, and both words appear as synonyms there as well. Maybe I should ask this? What in your opinion would be a good synonym for Racism?
I could pick any dictionary to find a definition of racism so I’ll just choose Webster’s this time.
It appears to be a definition that simply describes a belief or behavior. Based on the text of these definitions, do you (or anybody) feel that this is an intentionally racist definition that was crafted to further degrade and disempower Black people?
Again, this is an in-house discussion among friends. I’m not trying to attack anybody by stating this position.
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Also, I’ve posed a a few questions above if anyone else would care to answer.
– Can women be sexist against men?
– Can mixed-race people be racist?
– What races on earth can be racist and which cannot?
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@ King
If YOU believe that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race, then you are racist. “It’s not a question of what people thought of your ancestors.”
You can apply the white lexicographers definition to yourself. My strong reaction against white hatred and delusions of superiority is an appropiate response to their millennial antipathy towards dark-skinned humanity.
“It’s not a question of what people thought of your ancestors.”
It is ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING what they have done and continue to do, without remorse. Their poison and hatred and every conceivable act of unspeakable cruelty against most of humanity and their latter day sinister and hard to detect sophisticated racism has everything to with it.
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@ King
I am getting heated up. I will back down and reply when I am cooler.
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When i see the words “reverse racism” I just blank stare. I just think that is a way for whites to deflect or move the goal post so to speak to conflate everything and take the guilt off them. Plus white people hate being called racist. But want to turn it around and say black people are the “racist” ones. That is when the muckery begins.
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Understood, and I respect your restraint.
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@ taotesan
I agree that this fits the White Supremacist era in which we live. BUT I want to know if Whites are the ONLY ones who are racist. Can Asians be racist too? Or Can Latinos be racist in the things that they say or do?
When you come back..
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Gro Jo said,
“This conversation is getting off topic.”
Kiwi used the term “racial bias” in different ways 6 to 7 times in the above thread. It does tie into the discussion about Peter Liang, But it got me thinking about what that means in context to POC who hold racial bias. Does that make them racist ? I think not. If non whites act on racial bias does that make “disgusting” ? Only if their actions directly harms another individual. Otherwise its just preference.
The question I would ask Kiwi is does he see himself as free of “racial bias” ?
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@ Mary Burrell
I agree that “Reverse Racism” is a stupid idea. It’s either racism or it isn’t.
The other thing is the question of context. If I beat up a person every day for his lunch money and then one day they show up with their friends and they all beat me to a pulp, there is a “context” for their violence.
Now it doesn’t make sense to say that their beatdown of me was “non-violent,” or even technically “defensive.” But it certainly was a provoked response! And Blacks have been provoked for a looooong time in this country. I get that a lot of what we feel about White society and the White power structure is a provoked response. And therefore, it cannot be, apples to apples, the same thing as the say White supremacists have felt towards Blacks.
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I will go with these Promethean giants as to the definition of racism:
Dr Cress Welsing Steve Bantu Biko.
“Racism (White Supremacy) is the local and global power system and dynamic, structured and maintained by persons who classify themselves as white, whether consciously or subconsciously determined, which consists of patterns of perception, logic, symbol formation, thought, speech, action and emotional response, as conducted simultaneously in all areas of people activity (economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, religion, sex and war), for the ultimate purpose of white genetic survival and to prevent white genetic annihilation on planet Earth – a planet upon which the vast majority of people are classified as nonwhite (black, brown, red and yellow) by white skinned people, and all of the nonwhite people are genetically dominant (in terms of skin coloration) compared to the genetic recessive white skin people”.
And
Steve Biko:
Those who know, define racism as discrimination by a group against another for the purposes of subjugation or maintaining subjugation. In other words one cannot be a racist unless he has the power to subjugate. What blacks are doing is merely to respond to a situation in which they find themselves the objects of white racism. We are in the position in which we are because of our skin. We are collectively segregated against -what can be more logical than for us to respond as a group?
Than with Noah Webster of Merriam-Webster, who compiled the first Webster’s dictionary. He was a staunch American nationalist and Christian, who thought the written word was explicitly a tool that needed to be used to control public dissent and individualism.
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King said,
“Also, I’ve posed a a few questions above if anyone else would care to answer.”
– Can women be sexist against men?
Yes. But its rare. Comparing racism to sexism is an apple to oranges comparison. One deals with interactions solely between individuals the other is world wide and is part of the structure of the State.
– Can mixed-race people be racist?
President Obama did nothing to oppose white supremacy and continued to expand it. Does he see himself as racist ? Probably not. But his actions show that he has the same human values that whites hold. It’s OK to drone brown people in far off counties because they don’t have the same human value as whites.
– What races on earth can be racist and which cannot?
Any race that holds a monopoly of power over another race and acts on it is racist.
When the Western Empire finally winds down and collapses, What will replace it.
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@ Afrofem and Herneith
“I believe they have re-engineered the definition so that they can more easily shut down discussions of uncomfortable topics like race, racial caste systems and White Supremacist power. These are topics they do not want examined or challenged.”
“Whites, although many play ignorant, know what they are about regardless of how they portray themselves to you. Get them into a room by themselves and you will see how they really think of you.”
I have written a rough sketch to Fan.. which is still in moderation.
This! Whites have refined it for centuries, that they know exactly what is going on. Facades of innocence, politically correct talk, intentional re-engineering to use your words and denial, to exonerate themselves from racism have taken have taken a more sinister form so that can continue white supremacy in a different guise. This phenomenon of Black ‘racism’ originated in the late 1960’s after Civil Rights Movement was smashed.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Thanks for your reply.
– How do you know how rare it is. And based on what criterion do you make this claim?
– Which deals only with individuals, sexism or racism?
– Which not worldwide, sexism or racism?
– Which was not imposed by the state, sexism or racism?
Thanks.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Fair enough. Would Obama have still been a racist if both of his parents had been Black or would that mean that he would no longer be racist, even if he believe the same things and behaved in the exact same way?
Thanks
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@ Michael Jon Barker
So, for example when the Turks starved and ethnically cleansed those of he Armenian race who lived within Turkey, that was not racism. It was something else, right? Because the Turks didn’t have the power over the Armenians because in a much larger worldwide perspective, Whites were dominant around the globe?
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@ taotesan
Of course you are free to decide which definition you will accept and from whom. But is that the same for everyone? Can Asian, White, and Latino people also quote their own heroes on what they think racism means. And in the end, will there be one definition of racism or will every race have their own definition, based upon quotes from people who they like?
Would it be better if every race had their own definition of racism?
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@King
To me, the root of the disconnect is that your definition is narrowly focused on individual (and some group) interactions and attitudes. That is fine as far as it goes, but only covers one facet of how many Black people see and experience White Supremacy and racism.
For many Black people, racism is experienced not in individual “mean acts” or superior attitudes, but as an overarching system of oppression that degrades every aspect of our lives.
Using a historical example, the way Africans were brought to these shores was highly systematized with:
❖Financiers that invested in ships and materials to make the voyage to Africa for the express purpose of kidnapping humans and enslaving them.
❖Ship-builders who supplied the slaving vessels for transporting their “cargo”.
❖Manufacturers who supplied those vessels with everything from manacles to hard-tack.
❖Crews that staffed the ships and managed the “cargo”.
❖Agents on the African shores that helped capture and bring the “cargo” to slave forts for transport.
❖Slave dealers who brokered and sold the “cargo” in the Americas and the Caribbean.
❖Slave owners who purchased the Africans to labor for free.
❖”Seasoners” who broke the will of the newly enslaved Africans and taught them what their new “jobs” entailed.
❖Overseers who drove the slaves to meet production quotas.
❖Legions of bankers, merchants and tradespeople who served the slave owners.
All of these individuals and groups formed a system that made enslaving Africans profitable for everyone except the Africans and their descendants.
I’m sure that each of these individuals could have argued about whether their motivations or attitudes were racist. Yet, together they formed an exploitative system that their descendants are still trying to deny and run away from today.
Other systems that degrade and oppress Black people with in the present day include the educational, legal, financial and healthcare systems. While there are a range of racial attitudes among the people in those systems, the systems themselves were designed to oppress and do so with ruthless efficiency.
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King asks
– How do you know how rare it is. And based on what criterion do you make this claim?
– Which deals only with individuals, sexism or racism?
– Which not worldwide, sexism or racism?
– Which was not imposed by the state, sexism or racism?
I was thinking in terms of sexual harassment. That usually happens between individuals. What it does have in common with racism is that the perpetuater come from a position of power over the other individual. The U.S. has laws to protect against sexual harassment.
Some women in positions of power have practiced sexism.
Religious patriarchy within some Islamic theocracies have written sexism into their legal system. So I correct myself their.
White supremacy is world wide and systematically linked together based on race and the economic control of resources. It works one direction. I don’t see similarity between the two beyond who holds the power.
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Under the “power+prejudice” definition, is there any difference between racism and white supremacy?
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@ Afrofem
Very thoughtful post.
I think that racism is experienced BOTh corporately and individually. So both experiences are valid. But they are not interchangeable. One is general, the other is personal.
So, systematic racism IS a SYSTEM. But it is not only a system, and it is not necessarily a system, above and before it is anything else. But more importantly, the corporate effect of racism does not replace the individual effects of racism. So a person… an individual, cannot be immune from being racist because his or her group are the victims of racism. Even if you are a member of a downtrodden and racially oppressed group, you can still racially oppress others within your own axis of influence. There is nothing within the corporate experience that would make that impossible.
Look at Uncle Ruckus. Is he not a self-hating Black racist? Does he not believe and enforce White Supremacy himself upon his fellow Blacks? Of course he is a fictional character, but certainly based on some very real characters! To say that he cannot be racist seems extraordinary.
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@ King
“But is that the same for everyone? Can Asian, White, and Latino people also quote their own heroes on what they think racism means”
It that why you are quoting you are quoting Noah Webster?
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^^ Is that why you are quoting Noah Webster?
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King asks,
“So, for example when the Turks starved and ethnically cleansed those of he Armenian race who lived within Turkey, that was not racism. It was something else, right? Because the Turks didn’t have the power over the Armenians because in a much larger worldwide perspective, Whites were dominant around the globe?”
The Armenian genocide proves my statement. It was both racism and sectarian cleansing. My statement doesn’t disprove prejudice + power = racism rather it affirms it. I’m not arguing that only whites can be racist. What I’m saying is that racism is the action of one group attacking, subjugating, killing ect another group solely because of their ethnicity and because the ruling group has the power to do so. We have apartheid/genocide today being directed at Palestinians by the Israeli government. It benefits white supremacy even though the Jews are doing it.
500 years from now its likely the Western Empire will be long gone. But the systematic nature of white supremacy could transfer to a new ruling tribe creating an empire with the same type of racism that wreaks havoc around the planet today.
This thread has made my head hurt lol I need to take a break.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
No, I was thinking more about “sexism” which are beliefs that people are pretty much defined by gender and that one gender is superior to the other.
How is this possible, since globally, men hold greater power than women? Shouldn’t we rather say that it is impossible for women to be sexist until such time women rule the world and have the power corporately?
But don’t I remember that this was being the case in the West too, as a matter of law even? Or am I confusing what I’m seeing on all those Madmen episodes?
Are you saying that patriarchy and misogyny are not, and have not been, a worldwide systems of oppression of females that has been every bit as ugly and systematic as racism has been?
Thanks
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So then it’s not just Whites who can be racist? Turks can be too.
OK, Who else can be racist then?
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If I take the white definition of racism , then I am forced to take the ludicrous position of calling Australian Aborigines, the First People of Americas, the San racists. Not in this life.
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@ taotesan
As I said above, I could quote from ANY english dictionary and get roughly the same definition.
It’s not a question of quoting Noah Webster, it’s a case of quoting ALL the english dictionaries in the world.
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@ taotesan
What is the “White” definition of racism?
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“Any race that holds a monopoly of power over another race and acts on it is racist.”
I stand by my statement. I could reword it to addressee sexism, theocracy or other ism’s that oppress the human race. It’s rooted in who has the power and in what way power is wielded.
At this point I agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.
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i think abagond saw that coming partially with his newish ‘ogp’ philosophy; xenophobia, that’s what i’ve been calling it for a while. i brought the ‘no such thing as reverse racism’ argument to the wife, and it’s kind of pro forma for her to say that occasionally, but you should hear her mock spanish!
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@King
In my worldview, systemic and individual actions are not only interchangeable, but linked and integrated. In order for those individual actions to have any real effect, they must be backed up with systems and group power.
I think I would only be able to “racially” oppress others if those others were lower in the social hierarchy. For example, I believe Asian Americans and Latinos can “racially” oppress Black people because we are lower in the color caste system of this particular society. I don’t think Black people can racially oppress Asian-Americans and Latinos because we lack the power and the systems to meaningfully affect their lives.
A more accurate description of individuals who behave like Uncle Ruckus is White Supremacist. A dark skinned White Supremacist is still a White Supremacist. In my opinion, Black people who think and behave like him do so because they feel they integrated (and rewarded) in the current system when they uphold White Supremacy.
King, I remain unconvinced by the Black people are “racists” argument. I see too much Black powerlessness and misery to buy that bag of groceries.
Perhaps we should agree to disagree and call it a day?
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@ Abagond
My response to Fan… has long been in moderation. I can’t think of any word that violates your policy of moderated language.
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It totally depends an where you live, and what the circumstances are. I have seen PLENTY of times when Whites have treated Blacks as superior to Latinos (particularly if the Latino in question doesn’t speak english). I’ve spoken to Vietnam vets who readily admit now that Black and White G.I.s regularly imposed racism upon Vietnamese Asians during the war. The same is true of Black and White troops who did the same to Arabs during the Gulf War. Race is not the only criteria, sometimes it’s religion, or the way people dress or talk.
One would think that the hierarchy of White Supremacy is static, but it is not. It changes at need, with the one rule being that Whites are always on top and are always calling upon one minority to back their play against the other. But it’s not always the same minority the call upon.
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True, but Uncle Ruckus (and the ones in real life) is Black. Therefore Uncle Ruckus is a Black racist. Do you believe that he is a White Supremacist but not a racist?
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When the Wolof, Akan, Fula Mbundu, Yoruba, Hausa, Igbo, etc., kidnap Spanish, English, Dutch, French, German, Irish Scottish people and enslave them as chattel for centuries.
When the San, Aborigine, Herero, HUNT the Germans, Dutch and English, like ANIMALS and make purses out f their female private parts. Create concentration camps in Europe. When the Lingala, Luba, Konjo, are responsible for the deaths of ten million Belgians.
When Zulu, Shangaan, Venda, Ndebele invade Europe and cram all the Germans, Dutch, English, French, Irish, Jews, Portuguese into small over crowded ghettoes, with no running water, no sanitation, no amenities, whilst stealing ALL their land and minerals save for a patch of land and working them for a pittance.
When the Africans re-name every mountain, river and sea. When they hunt and kill the European animals to extinction.
Obliterate their cultures, ridicule their belief systems and languages,call them all sorts of dehumanizing names, rape their women, subject the Europeans to cultural genocide, disallow education, desecrate their places of worship, steal their music and art, imprison them, create human zoos, experiment on them, perform IQ tests in Wolof and Xhosa, build huge prisons for white men who smoke marijuana, to re enslave them to make the top echelons of Akan, Igbo, Yoruba, Hausa very rich, massacre the Dutch for refusing to talk IsiXhosa, torture and kill the Europeans who fight for their rights, terrorize them just because, treat their pets better than they treat elderly white women, whom they call girls, empty the European mind of all content and make him believe that he has no history, no culture and systematically ill-treat, torture, psychologically abuse the European for centuries in every conceivable way, then will I believe that Black people are ‘racists’.
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“All of these individuals and groups formed a system that made enslaving Africans profitable for everyone except the Africans and their descendants.”
Afrofem, you left out the Africans who sold their war captives to the Whites. Their participation in this business invalidates your claim that only Whites benefited from this system.
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@ taotesan
So you are looking for parity then? Until EXACTLY was done to Blacks is done to Europeans then no Black person can be racist. I understand the passion but I don’t understand the logic.
If I was abused as a child and later I myself am accused of being somewhat abusive to my own child it would seem strange to argue that unless I do the EXACT same thing to my son as was done to me then it cannot be abuse. What would what was done to me have to do with justifying the way that I treated others? It would be unfortunate, and a great tragedy that I had been abused, but it would not justify or redefine my own choices to abuse as non-abuse.
There are plenty of people in the world who are neither Black nor White. What would have to happen before a Black person could be seen as being racist toward a Latino or Arab?
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“… torture and kill the Europeans who fight for their rights, terrorize them just because, treat their pets better than they treat elderly white women, whom they call girls, empty the European mind of all content and make him believe that he has no history, no culture and systematically ill-treat, torture, psychologically abuse the European for centuries in every conceivable way, then will I believe that Black people are ‘racists’.”
.
@ Taotesan
THANK YOU! Remember there are:
“None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see.” {SHRUGS!}
All the arguments in the world aren’t going to change what some people just refuse to hear, or see.
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Well friends, I hope this kind of discussion doesn’t come between us. Everybody is not going to agree on every point either that you or that I believe. So rather than seeing one anther as “blind” or “deaf,” consider that there are just many perspectives and that any one of us could be the blind one, despite what we think we know today.
My belief is not very far from yours and whether or not it is POSSIBLE for a single Black person to be racist is really not that big a deal, given all there is to worry about for all of us. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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This conversation is bs and a deflection from the topic at hand, namely, Peter Liang. So what if Blacks can be racist, does that make Liang somewhat less guilty, does it warrant giving him a pass for killing Mr. Gurley?
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@gro jo
Actually, I did include Africans who sold their war captives to the Whites.
They were listed as:
❖Agents on the African shores that helped capture and bring the “cargo” to slave forts for transport.
A lot of the agents were Africans who either raided villages for captives or brokered the sale of captives to slave forts.
To me, gro jo, their role was so destructive that it doesn’t count as profit. I’m sure it felt quite profitable to them at the time, but in fact they were weakening the fabric of societies in their region. That weakening enabled later European colonization and subjugation of their descendants.
Short term profits, long term losses.
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@ taotesan
Good points!
I will be ready to declare Black people “racists” when others suffer the way we have suffered and continue to suffer.
@gro jo
While I understand your basic point, I think this discussion is quite apropos to understanding why Liang will face no serious consequences for his actions or depraved indifference after taking another human being’s life.
I believe when people have wildly divergent understandings about what “racism” is and who is “racist”, it contributes to a climate of confusion and impunity.
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“To me, gro jo, their role was so destructive that it doesn’t count as profit. I’m sure it felt quite profitable to them at the time, but in fact they were weakening the fabric of societies in their region. That weakening enabled later European colonization and subjugation of their descendants.
Short term profits, long term losses.”
Lol, all profits are short term, I think it has something to do with entropy. Anyway, their descendants would disagree with you. I recall interviews done by Gates for his documentary on Africa with the heirs of a Portuguese slaver, they didn’t sound too repentant.
Let me recommend the book written by this author on the African side of the slave trade. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8o6oGI4J-Y)
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“I believe when people have wildly divergent understandings about what “racism” is and who is “racist”, it contributes to a climate of confusion and impunity.”
Please tell me you’re joking? Even if everyone agreed that only Whites could be racist it wouldn’t change a thing. You forget that when Whites didn’t care if you called them racist, they were busy lynching Blacks on a regular basis. All this worry about definition of the word is a parlor game where everybody tries to be clever, nothing more.
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@ Abagond
If I can copy and paste my reply to Fan… .
Could you delete the dupicate,please?
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^duplicate
I am on the same page as you, Herneith, Afrofem and Fan… as regards the definition of racism.
Fan… if I may, since I do not think a racist (white is tautological) or any of their allies are going to tell us when Black people became racist.
( In a sketched comparison between SA and the USA).
This is a rough draft of my understanding of that amazing phenomenon where Black People evolved from primitive, beast and subhuman into a fully –fledged human racist, mind you.
I am old enough to remember a world very clearly, when the understanding of who was racist, was not questioned. White people were racist. Whites knew they were racist. Apartheid was never meant to end, neither was Jim Crow, if it had not been for the courageous activists and mass movements fight for equal rights.
In the USA, too, there was no ambiguity about who was the racist during Jim Crow.
Now, in the US ,as you obviously know, the Black Panthers and other civil rights campaigners had struggled, fought and overcame for human rights and many freedoms previously denied to African Americans.
I think there were a few white movements in the 60’s where the simultaneous victory of the Civil rights activists and new human rights were undermined and sabotaged by the left liberal controlled institutions, by the FBI”s COINTELPRO, which many activists believe is still in effect today; the well-known sociologist, Norman Glazer, who studied European immigration and contributed their success to bootstrapping and compared them to African Americans and in such a way, voila! white Americans were off the hook; and in late 60’s George Wallace (Donald Trump, the modern day version) the Alabama governor, and presidential candidate , in the Southern Strategy , whipped up Democratic base by laying it that Black Americans were’ reverse racists’ because of affirmative action. ( also read Republican strategist Lee Atwater and code language).
When FBI effectively smashed the Civil Rights movements, the liberal controlled institutions began to redefine the meaning of the term ‘racism’.
In South Africa, just after apartheid supposedly ended, Black people instantly ‘evolved’ from stupid, lazy animals to ‘racists’.
In short, Black people became racist after Jim Crow and apartheid ended and when affirmative action was applied as redress.
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Racism involves beliefs but the dictionary definition qutoed by King is incomplete and unecessarily weak. Dictionary definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. Words are used *then* dictionaries are written. Dictionaries don’t coin words. If we really want to understand the meaning of a word we have to examine how it is used.
While belief in racial superiority is a component of racism it also involves the ability and desire to turn those ideologies into adverse action against the “inferior” groups. Belief, in itself, is an extremely passive thing that would have no manifestation outside of the head of the believer. Racism could never be “experienced” by the hated groups if racism is mere belief. Racism has to manifest as action against another group and you need power to accomplish that. If racism were only a personal belief it would be a complete non-issue. White people could “believe in their superiority” but if they never *did* against others then we’d never know or care.
To introduce an anology, I think we can all agree that religion also involves personally held beliefs. However, describing religion as mere belief would certainly sell it short. Religious observance involves activities and rituals that demonstrate the adherent’s commitment to the faith. This is how any of us know various religions exist: by the actions of the worshippers. We can’t read their minds to know their beliefs. As the Bible book of James says, “as the body without spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also”.
Hmm, so given the obvious richness of religion I would expect a good dictionary definition to capture that. However, since racism is just a “belief in superiority” perhaps religion is just a “belief in God” also. Let’s see what Miriam-Webster has to say about this one:
”
the service and worship of God or the supernatural : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
”
Wow, that is surprisingly comprehensive Miriam! There is “belief” , yes, but also “practices” and an “institutionalized system”! You go Miriam, you go girl!
However, it does beg the question of why your “racism” deafinition (pun intended) is so weak. For a social construct that has had effects as broad as religion you have trivialized it immensely. I hardly see any mention of “practices” associated with racism or “institutional systems” tied to it. I’m lead to believe that one simply has to “believe” something. Really?
Tsk, tsk Miriam. Such definitional deflection is convenient for those who which muddy the waters because white people do not actually experience black racism in their day-to-day lives! How does the “black racism” that potentially exists under the weak definition manifest? What are its effects on white people? What traditions do black people adhere to in order to perpetuate it. Really, let’s be honest here, black people and the social structures they create are not deciding the fates of white people. The extent of the “black racism” a white person might experience is visiting a blog and reading “meanie widdle things”. Since “Black racism” against whites doesn’t exist in any measurable way in the the real world one can only claim it exists if racism is reduced to a mere mental state; there must be black people who don’t like whites. Who does such a defintion serve?
One could argue that black people have centuries worth of valid reasons to dislike or mistrust whites. Am I to accept that a defensive reaction to oppression would make black people equally racist? Well that settles it then, we have to love white people no matter what. I’d never want to be called a “reverse racist”. I’m going to start an organization to stamp out all the black racism in the world in order to make it a better place for everyone affected by our crime of not loving whites enough despite their racism. Because not loving them enough makes us racist too! Come to think of it, Jesus did say to love your enemies. Thank you massa for Christianity.
Blacks Upholding Love, Loyalty, Selflessness, Honor In-spite-of Terrorism
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
email me at [the org’s acronym]@gmail.com to join my new organization
Together we can end the mutual and equitable racism that EVERYONE practi..err believes!
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@ taotesan
“In South Africa, just after apartheid supposedly ended, Black people instantly ‘evolved’ from stupid, lazy animals to ‘racists’.
In short, Black people became racist after Jim Crow and apartheid ended and when affirmative action was applied as redress.”
.
1. That’s my go-to question to those who accuse Blacks as being racists. It’s meant for the opponents, of which you are not. 🙂 You’ll notice THEY never give an answer, which makes my point…
2. Have apartheid and Jim Crow really ended, or have they just morphed into another form? I strongly suspect that they are both still here, though I have no insider awareness about the details happening in SA, aside from the young people born AFTER apartheid (supposedly) ended have a more optimistic view of the present and the future than their parents – yet I may have this wrong.
I’m not stating that some things haven’t changed, but there are certainly some other things that need to change, and haven’t..
Taotesan, have you viewed this video yet?
http://www.viralvideos365.com/viral-video/Why-Black-People-Act-The-Way-They-Do-Dr-Joy-deGruy-Post-Traumatic-Slave-Syndrome-1459346600.html#.VwIhQHodtLY
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@ Origin
Absolutely fantastical… as usual!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting that SOME people have forgotten that Amerika with its openly racist politicians, sun-down-towns, segregated schools, segregated swimming pools, segregated lunch counters, even the segregated military were NORMAL EVERYDAY vestiges of life here in the US. Even the church is segregated with a WHITE God and Jesus!
Who put these and other oppressive systems into place – and kept them in place until it became unfeasible to keep them – and yet still manage to maintain a society with marginalization and oppression based upon the color of one’s skin?
Tell me who that is. Now we know who the racists are, and who the racists can only be!
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@Fan …
Yes. One can only claim black people can be racist if one conveniently forgets about the SYSTEM white people have created. Resistance is a natural reaction when under oppression. Slave revolts on plantations, during which white people may have been killed, were not the product of racist ideology but a desire for freedom. If you do horrible things to people they just might grow to hate you. You can’t then turn around and say that they’re racist when they’re just reacting to what you’ve been meting out.
They’ll try though. After all, a white man invented the term Draeptomania for slaves who tended to run away. Why would they run away from brutal plantation life? We’re not talking about a child repeatedly running away from a loving home here. He invented a pathology where there was none since no normal human would want to be treated like chattel.
LIkewise, it’s ludicrous to claim that merely having certain beliefs or mistrust of whites could make black people racist. In the context of the racist system avoiding white people under certain situations may be wise . Black people have been lynched for asking for a glass of water (Reuben Stacey) or going to the store (Emmett Till) or have had police called to execute them on the spot for buying a bb-gun (John Crawford).
It’s unsound to ignore context in order to create false equivalences. Law has the concept of self-defense for the simple reason that the aggressor and the one being attacked are not on the same level morally and should not be on the same level legally. Yet after centuries of white racism some people are somehow shocked that black people cannot be racist merely for not liking whites. They shouldn’t…and are largely more concilliatory than white people deserve.
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When Blacks were awarded their “equal rights” then they magically became equally racist.
Origin bringing up Websters definition of religion and contrasting that with Websters generic version of racism highlights how institutional racism defines the meaning of words in something as benign as a dictionary.
Both racism and religion are practiced on a personal level, are social and structural, can be institutionalized, and can be observed in culture as well as effect culture change around them.
Religion like racism, can show “prejudice and discrimination”, when it comes to giving out special privileges like the Eucharist in member only churches.
Christianity within white supremacy was quite effective in erasing the minds of those it was forced onto and replacing it with complacency to the colinizers.
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@Origin
Good one. LOL!
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@taotesan
According to this study, Whites consider themselves the primary victims of racism in the country today:
https://now.tufts.edu/news-releases/whites-believe-they-are-victims-racism-more-o
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@gro jo
They are still lynching Black people on a regular basis. The modern term is “police killings”.
Ah, gro jo, even “parlor games” can have an educational purpose and sharpen the mind. This one has certainly made me think, even when I didn’t agree the proposed ideas.
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“Ah, gro jo, even “parlor games” can have an educational purpose and sharpen the mind. This one has certainly made me think, even when I didn’t agree the proposed ideas.”
Thank you for confirming my hunch.
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@Afrofem
Some of these people literally think he fact that can’t lynch, steal, rape and harm means that they are not practicing their white privilege and thus are being discriminated against. That’s what they mean.
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@TeddyBearSun
The White Supremacist as victim is bizarre, isn’t it?
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@ gro jo
Thanks for the link to Chika Ezeanya’s book trailer re: Before We Set Sail.
Another book for the pile….
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@ TeddyBearSun
“Some of these people literally think he fact that can’t lynch, steal, rape and harm means that they are not practicing their white privilege and thus are being discriminated against. That’s what they mean.”
Wow! Spot on.
Whist not the same modus operandi , this is the gestalt of racist white South Africa.
I
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@Fan…
“Have apartheid and Jim Crow really ended, or have they just morphed into another form? I strongly suspect that they are both still here.”
The short answer, Fan…’ is: No, both have not ended. I could give my opinion on that, but I think then answering in full, would further push this interesting thread off-topic. I would like continue, perhaps on the Open Thread.
Or if ‘our genial host’ would write on this topic .
I have only managed to watch a small segment of Dr. De Gruy. She has touched upon themes that I have long tried to tie together. Thanks for the recommendation. Her book, “Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome”: is on my wish-list
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Here are some of the various reasons what , I think , are for calling a Black person a ‘racist’ by fellow Black people and people not white.
1. Hinkleyesque attempts to impress or wanting to get into bed with the white ladies by character assassinating random Black people on the flimsiest of pretexts.
2. As stated before, an unstinting moral centre, with a scrupulous self-inventory, incorrectly attributes bias and prejudice as racism.
3. A desperate attempt by Black and persons not white to literally and figuratively want to be in bed with white supremacy.
4. The lazy thinking of Uncle Toms, sell-outs and Black people suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
5. The Black person who is against white supremacy (still) has an incomplete understanding of the hydra-headed structure of white supremacy. It could be an intermediate phase, before the blinkers come off after insight to insight, through rigorous thought and interrogation into the nature of white supremacy.
6. People who are not Black, embracing their bulwark/intermediate position in the white hierarchy, with aspirations to whiteness, although not enjoying the full rights and privileges accrued to the white man, distance themselves from and despise Black people, but whilst appearing to attack white supremacy in so far that those privileges only need to be extended to the bulwarks and not Black people.
7. A very clever tactic, (not necessarily divorced from point 1 and 6) employed by people not Black, to appear to be concerned with universal injustice by foisting on victims of racism an ‘egalitarianism of oppression’. They usually inveigle themselves in the company of Black people by criticizing white people. They barely criticize the prejudices of their group against Black people, and although very vocal, are surprisingly conservative in their criticism of white supremacy, mostly addressing parochial concerns such as interracial sex and marriage.
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@ Origin
Brilliant commentary once again.
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Aaargh!Red-faced. I always get John Hinckley and Mark Chapman confused.
Should read:
1. Chapmanesque attempts or wanting to get into bed with the white ladies by character assassinating random Black people on the flimsiest of pretexts.
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@ Afrofem
“Whites consider themselves the primary victims of racism in the country today”
I am still seething from a verbal altercation I had with a white man today. I think it was a culmination of biting my tongue, calming myself down after heap upon heap of white racism, that I just went off today. He brought up the topic of unemployment and how difficult it is for white people to find work, when only a minuscule amount are unemployed and more than 70% are in senior management positions and white women are the major beneficiaries of affirmative action and most of the land and economy are in white hands. Here was a man in front of me accusing me of ” You have so much hate and anger ” when I attempted to point to him that white people including himself benefited from apartheid. and still do. In no uncertain terms did he portray himself as a victim and ‘how can I accuse him of being privileged’. I went totally ballistic and threw him out of my studio.
One of the benefits after the ‘end ‘ of apartheid is that a Black woman can tell a white man to F*ck off ( one would be mad to do so in apartheid).
Abagond, if this is way off topic, please delete or I can repost in the Open thread.
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I just want to find out the ways in which this mythical “black racism” is negatively affecting others’ lives. Until that information is provided I’ll just assume that the notion of “black racism” is simply a deflection tactic. The claim that black people are racist too is an attempt to invalidatethe very real experience of racism by claiming that it’s all mutual and therefore canceled. So, in the words of the late great Whitney Houston, “Let me see the receipts”.
America has a racist culture and a consequence of that is the potential for mistrust and animus between ethnic groups. However a consequence of racism is not racism. America, as we know it, was founded on racist principles to the extent that the inalienable rights of man were not deemed to apply to blacks. A supreme court ruling (iirc Dred Scott case) made it clear that it could not have applied because the founders had slaves and would therefore be contradicting themselves as they wrote.
Show me the black racism there. I reallly can’t be that if black people didn’t like such injustice and, over centuries, grew suspicious of those who were inflicting it then they’re racist. How exactly would we have mirrored white racism merely by failing to adore them under those conditions? Some people are trying desperately to make an asymmetrical situation symmetrical. As taotesan suggested, perhaps we should be flattered. We went from being inhuman to being 3/5ths human to being racist. I guess that means we’ve now become equal to the fully human white race…lol.
[Another post disappeared… this replaces it]
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The “black racism” charge is a method of distraction like “all lives matter”. In both cases, a red herring is introduced and people have to spend time addressing it although it has no merit. If Black people talk about their experience of racism white people will claim that that they deal with black people’s “reverse racism”. If Black people talk about the devaluation of their lives in the eyes of the law, white people will claim they need to be included too or the movement is “racist”. The retort is either “you too” or “us too”. It’s really quite juvenile but as long as it drowns out the relevant issue it will have done its job.
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@Kiwi
“I see. Afrofem…”
And you’re still deflecting. This is about Peter Liang, not Afrofem.
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@ Kiwi
As entertaining as you sometimes are, I’m starting to tire of piddling with your measly intellect. It really doesn’t matter to me that you believe Black people here (or wherever) are racists. You and others like you can be as dumb as you like. Offline, I know how to navigate around (or not!) the idiots I encounter …
The last time I looked, Obama was neither a member of the “model minority,” or an “honorary white” person. In case you don’t know, those categories are designated exclusively for Asian and/or Asian descended people.
Those categories indeed were the ones that rushed to Liang’s mind immediately upon murdering an unarmed Black man. The first thing he did after blowing this guy away was to attempt to cover his sorry butt through the agency of his white overseers. That is what’s stupid and disgusting, just like you NOT SEEING that is STUPID and DISGUSTING!
A thousand more commenters could post all sorts of evidence why your logic is wanting and why your reasoning is rank, and you would still be as lost in your delusions as that mirkwood fellow who recently hung out here.
This thread isn’t about Obama nor anyone else. It’s strictly about how your chump, Liang, murdering another brother.
And, you trying your best to deflect away Liang’s horrific behavior by calling Black people racist.
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If Black people are racist, then Jewish people are anti-Semitic Nazis?
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@Origin
“However a consequence of racism is not racism.”
Thank you for articulating seamlessly and succinctly what I was thinking
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@Taotesan
I’ve spent some time in New England. In the neighborhoods the poorest people of color lived in at Lowe and Lynn of Boston, I can say there were quite a few white kids and people there. Some nice some very mean. I really don’t know how a people that benefit the most from just about everything including resource funding and social circles could even complain other then the fact that ‘some’ have to live with poorer or socially outcasted people of color. This was the late 80s and early 90s and then early 2000s. I don’t think much has changed. It’s really testing how much being born ‘white’ and feeling super entitled. I know not all feel this way but a tremendous amount do… They’ll turn around and call you racist for pointing that. In my neighborhood they already do..
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@TeddyBearDaddy
“I really don’t know how a people that benefit the most from just about everything including resource funding and social circles could even complain”
Your incomprehension mirrors my mine. What I think , deeply embedded in their superiority complex, that they have to be first in line for everything forever, and when that does not materialize in their vision of a world, very hurt feelings manifest, because it has been unrequited with commensurate glorification, subservience, gratitude, indulgence as they imagine a superior being should be rewarded. The cry of victimhood is very real to them. It is bewildering to a normal human being to understand how white people would feel aggrieved that the ‘privilege’ of routinely abusing Black people and other discriminated against groups anyhow and anytime has been taken away them. Coupled with affirmative action policies that seemingly undermine their livelihoods, must really impinge on their psyches. I can only imagine the intolerable gaskets going off inside them what they perceive their inferiors are rewarded with what is rightfully theirs.
They have usurped the true victimhood without any recompense and sincere contrition whilst simultaneously being ‘victim’ and perpetuater of a system that confers them continued uninspected privileged whilst the true victims have never had space for true healing.
Fan’s… question is very relevant. Because if we study recent history, Black people knew who the racists were during Jim Crow and so did the racists.
The story seems to be very similar in white dominated countries.
Sorry again, Abagond, I think I am way off-topic. Again, please delete as you see fit.
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In Los Angeles today a Federal Jury found Paul Tanaka guilt of obstruction of justice into the FBI probe of jail house abuse in L.A. prisons. Like Liang he faces up to 15 years in prison. His attorney plan to appeal his case.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-tanaka-trial-20160405-story.html
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@ taotesan & @ TeddyBearDaddy
For me this is not that strange.
Many Whites think they are superior to other races of man.
This is one of the reason they think that they are entitled to be the first in all kind of privileges.
But I think also that many of them think that their race created the modern world as it is, and therefore, they deserve to be treated ahead of others.
I’m aware that Abagond has already tried to deconstruct the idea that White people discovered and invented (almost) everything that people worldwide use for their daily life (See The White Inventor Argument thread), but 2 things we must take in account:
* that, in fact, the majority of scientific discoveries and technological innovations made recently (the last 2 to 3 centuries) were centered in Europe and its derivations in the New World; this fact will change, hopefully, as people of other races of man are more and more integrated in the techno-scientific process; more contributions will come from other quarters in the future;
* that, most people (of other races, as well as Whites) – who have not gave themselves time to think and read about this and related subjects – adopt, as a default point of view, the concept that Whites did, in fact, invent everything; you can think otherwise, but if you ask people directly* you’ll come to this conclusion; the evidence of this seems to be overwhelming; to counter this tendency much more must be done to make people aware of contributions made by individuals of all races to the well-being of mankind today;
So, in the heads of many Whites they see themselves as the rightful heirs of the modern civilization, from which people of other races benefit by favor, so to speak.
That thought can be interpreted as wrong, but I think it is what is in their minds, and helps explain, at least partially, some of their behavior.
The Marxist worldview, with its focus in the importance of labor vis-a-vis the capital helps also, because it makes us remember that to make a house (as an example) you need not only the person coming with the money and his/her engineers and architects but also the manual construction workers.
It is from such a point of view that you can say, for example, that the ancestors of Blacks in the Americas contributed heavily in the building of the material foundations of the societies there.**
— End of personal ramble! —
P.S.:
*A small story: a couple of friends of mine went from Maputo to Durban, for the first time, in the year 2000. After their return home, the wife told me with vehemence: the Boers worked a lot in South Africa, they have built a magnificent city over there. I tried to call her attention to the fact that for every mental contribution of said Boers, to that magnificence, she should remember the physical workload by countless Blacks and other people of color without which none of those magnificent architectural and engineering wonders could have come to existence; in the end I felt that she was not convinced – after all many of us have learnt to despise manual/physical work vis-a-vis the mental work. By the way: that woman and her husband are Blacks!
**Blacks have contributed also in other areas besides manual labor to the building of the Americas, but here I’m stressing their manual contribution, to which they were (in the past) confined.
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“…she should remember the physical workload by countless Blacks and other people of color without which none of those magnificent architectural and engineering wonders could have come to existence; in the end I felt that she was not convinced – after all many of us have learnt to despise manual/physical work vis-a-vis the mental work. By the way: that woman and her husband are Blacks!”
.
Hello my African relative –
There are some of us that cannot forget for a moment (even if we wanted to) the backbreaking, blood, sweat and tears we have been forced to give to whiteness.
That is a great part of why *they* FEAR us.
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@michaeljonbarker
Thanks for sharing that link. What a story!
That department was so far gone that they were threatening fellow law enforcement colleagues. I was struck by this passage in the article:
Tanaka was part of a decision to send sheriff’s sergeants to the home of the lead FBI agent on the investigation, where they threatened to arrest her for running a sting operation in which a cellphone was smuggled to the informant in jail.
Government officials seem to have no sense of limits or decency…shame flew out of the window decades ago.
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@Afrofem
It gets better. Tanaka was part of a white supremacist police gang called the Vikings that terrorized Blacks and Hispanics in his precinct when he first joined the force. He has their tattoo. Similarly other police precincts have “brotherhoods” as well.
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“Similarly other police precincts have “brotherhoods” as well.”
@ michaeljonbarker
Apparently there are still a few policemen and women willing to put their careers on the line to take a CORRECT stand!
STANDING OVATION FOR THE NYPD 12 !!!!
“A dozen uniformed minority NYPD officers crossed The Thin Blue Line, filing suit over America’s largest police department’s allegedly illegal quotas as you can see in the video below.
The state of New York passed a law in 2010 banning police quotas.
These NYPD officers are of African American or Latino heritage and are risking everything, by standing against instructions given at role call that disproportionately target minority communities.
It’s called Broken Windows.
The New York Police Department has now long-used arrest quotas as performance numbers for promotions and more favorable patrols.
So these few, brave NYPD officers are suing the department for the illegal quota requirements imposed by a statistics driven police management regime led by Commissioner William “Bill” Bratton.
When asked for comment, Commissioner Bratton summed up the entirety of his department’s defense against these serious charges of systemic injustice:
“Bullshit. I said ‘Bullshit’ is my response to that.”
The “NYPD 12” as local media dubbed the officers, have started the class action suit in order to end the long held practice within the NYPD ranks of targeting minorities. (Structural racism/white supremacy!)
Now these dozen police officers risk being intimated and harassed by fellow NYPD officers for blowing the whistle, in a long accepted practice in many urban cities throughout the country.
No matter the outcome of the case, these officers will likely be driven out of the ranks of the NYPD.
The officers assert they are instructed on a daily basis, to unfairly target minority communities as you can see on video, shown below.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The video can be seen on this page, about halfway down:
http://www.blacklistednews.com/WATCH%3A_NYPD_Officers_Risk_Everything%2C_Sue_Department_Over_Quotas/50268/0/38/38/Y/M.html
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@Afrofem
In my last comment to you, I realize, in hindsight , that I had overstepped the mark, and put you on the spot . Please accept my apology
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@taotesan
Loved your comment! I understand and share your frustration.
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@michaeljonbarker
Criminal police gangs…I wish I could say I was surprised.
I guess the Vikings gang was Tanaka’s ticket to Valhalla. They probably formed the core of the “fiercely loyal” subordinates the article mentioned. I hope they get the chance to protect him in prison.
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@ Fan
Thank you for sharing information about the NYPD 12.
Interesting how other ethnic groups buy into the stereotype of the “Black Criminal” with no understanding of how African American communities are targeted for destabilization by the Prison Industrial Complex. The police are the intake valve to the system and they don’t even spare our children.
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@Afrofem
Have you gotten to a point where you can sort of step into the shoes of other people as well besides black people. I’m not saying the prison industrial complex is excusable but when you get to look at other people’s lives you can sort of break the cycle of anger unto yourself, black people, etc. To me personally, I’ve had the opportunity to see other point of views from which I’ve completely never seen. I’m not saying I’m not angry anymore but it gave me a different perspective of things to counter absolute hate and anger. I just hope you and ‘Fan’ can reach that point. I have no idea how old you guys are but for me experiences with ‘the man’ took away great deal of my life but I wish I knew ‘the grey’ and navigated from there sooner.
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@TeddyBearDaddy
Your comment is interesting. I’m unclear about how you define “the grey”.
Please elaborate.
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In reading about the Peter Liang case and following the arguments, I was struck by this comment:
“Chinese American community, when you throw your support behind Peter Liang, consider the following quote by Jay Caspian Kang:
“…no amount of nuance or qualification or appeal to Martin Luther King will change the fact that the first massive, nationwide Asian-American protest in years was held in defense of a police officer who shot and killed an innocent black man.””
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“Have you gotten to a point where you can sort of step into the shoes of other people as well besides black people.”
Are you suggesting that I walk in Asian shoes? If yes,why? Because that thing named Liang murdered a Black man?
“I’m not saying the prison industrial complex is excusable but when you get to look at other people’s lives you can sort of break the cycle of anger unto yourself, black people, etc. ”
I don’t understand or know you are trying to say here.
“To me personally, I’ve had the opportunity to see other point of views from which I’ve completely never seen. I’m not saying I’m not angry anymore but it gave me a different perspective of things to counter absolute hate and anger. I just hope you and ‘Fan’ can reach that point.”
Please try to be lucid. If you can reach that point maybe I can understand what you’re trying to say. What is the absolute hate and anger you are referring to?
“I have no idea how old you guys are but for me experiences with ‘the man’ took away great deal of my life but I wish I knew ‘the grey’ and navigated from there sooner.”
Huh.. what???
Are you suggesting in your gobbledygook babbling that you think Afrofem and myself should be more sensitive to the racial scourge the Asian people receive??????????????
It’s hard to be in a conversation if no one understands what you’re saying.
Whatever you do, though – don’t be an idiot like this next clown, kiwi!
@kiwi
YAWN…
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…….
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz……..
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz……
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@kiwi
This is about Peter Liang, not Obama, OJ, Paul Tenaka, Darren Wilson, Michael Brown, Seung-Hui Cho, Afrofem and all the other people you keep bringing up over and over again.
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@ Fan
I have noticed that TeddyBearDaddy posted an inscrutable comment and never returned to clarify his ideas.
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GREY AREA: Where it’s OK to violate other people’s civil rights because those oppressed will never know what it’s like to walk in your shoes.
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@Afrofem it is coming to terms with “the way things are” and no longer submitting to vulnerability. The grey is the middle path an oppressed people or people in general maneuver through to survive.
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OK Teddybeardaddy that makes better sense.
I was referring to Tanaka’s use of the phrase.
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@ Afrofem
That tends to happen when one suffers impairments while blogging. lol
…
Am I the only one noticing an influx of numerous Teddybear characters around here lately? 🙂
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@ Fan
Yes, lots of teddy bears!?!
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@TeddyBearDaddy
Thank you for clarifying the “grey” term.
I will have a longer response later.
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@ Afrofem
I am relieved that you cleared that up. Thank you.
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@TeddyBearDaddy
From my viewpoint, a major lesson for all emotionally mature adults is seeing the world the way it really is instead of through a haze of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking can be fun, but it doesn’t get you anywhere.
Likewise treading a middle path can be a means of survival and survival is human’s most basic drive. To me, however, “the grey” is a path that leads to nowhere. It is a treadmill disguised as a path. While treading “the grey,” people can live and survive, but will they thrive? Will they struggle, climb and reach the summit of who they can be?
That summit will be different for everyone. For some, it will be purely financial independence. For others, it will involve higher education and being recognized as an authority in their chosen field. For still others, it will be the building and maintenance of a loving and highly functional family or community. Those are all worthy summits.
I believe the greatest summit is self-mastery. Learning to control and direct your thoughts, emotions and attitudes while being open to learning and understanding is the steepest climb.
One of the lessons of this particular climb is not to shy away from strong emotions like anger. I think anger properly channeled into constructive action is like gas in the tank. It gives you the fuel to move toward a desired destination. Anger held inside can corrode the vessel. Anger without constructive action can lead to lashing out and wrecking other vehicles. Another lesson is learning the difference between anger and hate. While anger can be a force that propels you forward, to me, hate is like a dead-end road sign with a sheer cliff on the other side.
To me, the greatest danger of “the grey” is the shutdown of vision. Without vision, humans are little more than robots. We owe everything to those people in the past with vision who refused to submit to “the grey” and decided that they would channel their anger into abolishing slavery, dismantling apartheid, ejecting colonizers and extending the vote.
We will owe everything to the people of today with vision who channel their anger into ending
lynchingpolice killings, dismantling the prison industrial complex, universal healthcare, affordable housing justice and transformation of the current decrepit economic system.There was a popular bumper sticker slogan during the Bush years that read,
I’m paying attention.
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@ Afrofem
‘dismantling apartheid, ejecting colonizers and extending the vote.
We will owe everything to the people of today with vision who channel their anger into ending lynching police killings, dismantling the prison industrial complex, universal healthcare, affordable housing justice and transformation of the current decrepit economic system.”
What an excellent essay.
I would go so far as to say that without that ‘right anger channelled’ of yesterdays freedom fighters, I would not be alive today or now alive, enjoying the fruits of their vision and their dedicated fight for justice for all.
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@Kiwi
Again, stay on topic and stop deflecting. This is about Peter Liang.
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“Thank you. I see you’ve got nothing to counter with..”
@kiwi
What can a truly blind person like yourself see???
(No offense to people who are actually blind! And while I’m at it, no offense to stupid things, either.)
Counter? Everything goes over (or under) your blocked do-do head.
I’d have way more success getting my wall to understand, and respond to, simple English.
Like resw relentlessly reminds you, stop deflecting!
This is about a Chinese dude, PL, trying to get away with murdering a Black dude, AG by appealing to his white dudes, the police union.
There’s no comparing this Liang dude to anyone, or anything else.
He stands with himself, Lucifer and those LIKE YOU who support him for murdering an unarmed Black man/father/son minding his own business.
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Looks like this guy got off…. Be prepared for more negligible homicides like this. Absolutely terrible and stressful for innocent people.
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Update (April 19th): Liang was sentenced to five years probation: no prison time. Moments before sentencing, Judge Chun reduced the charge from manslaughter to criminally negligent homicide.
More:
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Of course Judge Chun reduced his charge! Only an evil, corrupt, racist judge and only an evil person, like Kiwi, could possibly support this bastard or the other bastards who protested on this bastard’s behalf.
Someone as vile and disgusting as Liang gets to walk scott free from killing an innocent person and leaving him to bleed to death, when millions of Americans are still serving years in prison for mere possession of drugs? Let’s hope the good-hearted New Yorkers show their dismay, and let’s hope the bastard gets what’s served justice in his upcoming civil suits and on the street.
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I see there is no justice for Akai Gurley. Well business as usual in America.
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@Mary Burrell
Even when you’ve seen a lifetime of
lynchingkilling of Black people, the pain never goes away. You get to see whose life really matters.When you think that racism/White Supremacy began as a way for Europeans to justify enslaving Africans, it hurts to see how it is still destroying Black lives, families and communities.
At some point, the White population will jump on the Chinese Americans for something. They will come to Black folk and say, “you should support us in this fight against racism.” I will remember of the crowds of Chinese Americans who protested for the right to kill Black people without consequences.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peter-liang-sentence-no-prison-ny-police_us_57168a47e4b06f35cb70f31b
He walks. The beat goes on…
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@Afrofem: Yes i am sad that you are right.
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To paraphrase: How strange, how wrong, it is, that the face picked to represent police impunity toward blacks is yellow.
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America is telling everyone that a Black life does NOT matter – only Black dollar$ spent in non-Black businesses do.
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Is a dog’s life more valuable than a Black person’s life?
According to 98 percent of Whites, a dog’s life is MORE valuable than a Black person’s life. According to 75 percent of Whites, a dog’s life is MORE valuable than a human being’s life.
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“Is a dog’s life more valuable than a Black person’s life? ”
Compare the national outrage white folks had against Michael Vick, the NFL quarterback found guilty of dog fighting with — George W Bush who lied to Amerikans after 911 about Saddam’s Iraq having weapons of mass destruction (yellow cake uranium) poised to attack Amerika.
One caused the death of a few dogs. The other caused the death and suffering of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of innocent people.
One served time for his crime.
The other wasn’t even censured for his crimes against humanity!
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Criminally intent homicide believes their was no intent to kill Akai Gurley deliberately therefore no crime. It carries up to four years in prison if convicted.
So firing your weapon down a dark hall way because you know Black people are dangerous is perfectly understandable.
By contrast if you are caught possessing more then an ounce of Marijuana in the State of New York, it’s a felony, $5000 fine and up to seven years in prison.
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No disrespect, but it reminds me of the tragic scene in ‘Legends of Fall’ when the policeman fires his ‘Tommy’ into the mountain side but it ricochets and kills the wife… There’s a ton of emotions but ultimately this guy was well trained and should have better approach protocol. Something tells me he’s the type that would do warning fire shots in many similar situations instead of announcing himself or whatever police protocol is. So in sense it was bound to happen sooner or later.
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This wife got 20 years for firing warning shots that ‘did not kill’.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2930214
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Well she did walk free… but 20 yrs vs 8 tops or whatever is drastically different.
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@Abagond or anyone else who can explain
Can anyone explain what exactly the difference is between 2nd degree involuntary manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide? Based on what information I could look up, the latter is a subset of the former (ie, 2nd degree involuntary manslaughter includes criminally negligent homicide), so it is not clear to me what exactly the reduction in charge was.
Is it something unique to NY state?
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@ jefe
Here is what the New York Post said about that:
More:
http://nypost.com/2016/04/19/nypd-cop-peter-liang-gets-community-service-for-killing-akai-gurley/
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This is all I have to say: there are no winners here and justice was not served
if those 2 reality TV actors from New Jersey can go to jail for tax fraud, then Peter could have done a few months to understand that “fear” does not excuse you for “accidentally” killing someone
http://asians4peace.tumblr.com/post/143043481254/this-comic-features-the-mothers-of-akai-gurley-and
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@ Linda
Thanks.
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@Linda: Thank you so much for that post there is no justice and all of this is so tragic.
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@Linda,
interesting link. I went to the original site that you lifted that from and saw a whole slew of articles and links. I even read a few of the ones in Chinese too and find that it attempts to frame the event from various perspectives and discusses the rationale for a wide split among Asian Americans over this. The ones who seem NOT to understand the various viewpoints tend to be post Vincent Chin immigrants, who lack much of the context and somehow see Peter Liang as if he had been framed.
Much of the testimony from Asians in the articles in the links express a desire to see the conviction of Peter Liang as a precedent, a much needed precedent to indict and convict law enforcement of their violence and disenfranchisement of people of colour. They are not advocating Peter Liang’s innocence. For example, some state that it is more apt to liken Vincent Chin to Akai Gurley instead of Peter Liang (who, by all accounts, is still alive and healthy).
I am not in the USA, so I cannot easily gauge the mood there, but is there any multi-racial coalition movement in the USA to push to get all the OTHER cops who shot or otherwise killed unarmed victims to get indicted and convicted also?
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@Abagond,
Nothing in the article you provided explained the difference between involuntary 2nd degree manslaughter verdict and criminally negligent homicide (on which the sentence is based), except that the latter is accidental (but isn’t the former also? based on being criminally negligent?). The only thing mentioned is the difference in the maximum prison sentence (ie, 15 yrs. v. 4 yrs), so I guess there may be a way to back track. But the article link added more confusion than it explained anything.
I thought the initial verdict was involuntary 2nd degree manslaughter, but if it was a higher degree of manslaughter, I would like to know that too, as the article did not mention it at all.
I really would like to know what the reduction in the crime conviction actually was before I can gauge if it was reasonable or not.
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The judge bought into this idea that he accidentally discharged his weapon which accidentally killed someone.
Yet the officer had his gun drawn in the first place because we was afraid of being in a public housing building where Black people reside.
I bet if he was in an apartment filled white people he would both have drawn his gun.
Bottom line is he got a pass because Black people are percieved to be dangerous.
If he was in an apartment in Beverly Hills and accidently shot a resident their he would be going to prison.
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*would have not drawn his gun
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Did the judge say anything requesting the NYPD to evaluate their training and management programs, eg, why they send rookie cops to handle these cases or why they are not prepared or trained properly to render CPR?
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“Did the judge say anything requesting the NYPD to evaluate their training …. or why they are not prepared or trained properly to render CPR?
.
The cops are likely (unofficially) trained to finish off the hapless victims of police shootings so that they don’t survive to sue them, the police department or the city for wrongful behavior.
I guess its cheaper to pay the DEAD victim’s survivors.. instead of a lifetime of medical bills, plus pain and suffering or whatever payouts to a police shooting survivor.
All victims/survivors should go after the police department’s pension fund!!
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@Fan
I read somewhere that was indeed an unofficial policy. (I wish I could remember the source and provide a link.) Supposedly, a surviving victim is a lot more of a headache to the police than a dead victim.
The police figure the city (as in other Black people) will pay the victim’s family and they get off scot free. That has been the formula for the past half century.
There is a group in Minneapolis, MN that is seeking to force police to cover the costs of their malfeasance through malpractice insurance. This insurance is described this way:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/force-police-accountability-city/
Then there is the route the Jamaicans took which involves holding the police criminally accountable. According to a 2014 article a powerful independent commission has dampened police willingness to shoot first and not consider consequences:
http://www.salon.com/2014/12/07/jamaica_sees_success_in_curbing_killings_by_police/
I also like your suggestion: “All victims/survivors should go after the police department’s pension fund!!”
Right now, there are no consequences and therefore no change in the way police
lynchingkillings are handled. That needs to change.LikeLiked by 1 person
I just came across this statement from a coalition of Asian American groups who denounced the disposition of the Liang case. The coalition members include:
Asian Americans United, Philadelphia
CAAAV Organizing Asian Communities, New York City
Chinatown Community for Equitable Development (CCED), Los Angeles
Chinese Progressive Association, San Francisco
Chinese Progressive Association, Boston
The statement reads in part:
https://www.colorlines.com/articles/asian-american-coalition-issues-powerful-statement-about-peter-liangs-sentence-community/
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@Afrofem
The coalition’s statement seems hopeful…
Time will tell.
You’re right. Cops murdering civilians would go down immensely if the killings would cost them in their pockets.
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Kiwi said,
“To clarify:”
“1. Peter Liang’s verdict is just. He is accountable for Akai Gurley’s death and he needs to be punished.”
“2. Peter Liang is a scapegoat. The protestors are right to be outraged.”
Do you think Peter Liangs verdict being reduced to “Criminal Negligence” is unjust and that he needs to be punished ? Are you outraged about this miscarriage of justice?
When did Peter Liang magically stop being a scapegoat ?
Do you think that the judge ruled the way he did because of the protestors or because as an Asian American judge he showed racial bias?
Or maybe the judge ruled the way he did because 99% of the time the State rules in favor of the police.
BTW the police accidently running over a citizen who happened to be Asian American has nothing in common with Peter Liang and him discharging his weapon down a dark hallway when he heard a door open.
Were these police speeding down the road because they spotted an Asian person walking across the street ? Maybe they were nervous driving through an Asian neighborhood and they were trying to escape which caused the accident. The police weren’t charged with a crime but they were questioned by the DMV and the family can go after the police for wrongful death damages.
Afrofem posted a number of Asian American groups denouncing the verdict and calling for justice.
But that doesn’t make her statement less true or racist.
“At some point, the White population will jump on the Chinese Americans for something. They will come to Black folk and say, “you should support us in this fight against racism.” I will remember of the crowds of Chinese Americans who protested for the right to kill Black people without consequences.”
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@ kiwi
Where are the throngs of protestors making noise in support of the cop behind the wheel who killed this guy?????
You want to compare apples and grapefruits to avoid the spotlight shining on Peter Liang. It’s not happening. This is about Peter Liang, *his* actions AND his support from his supporters. It’s not about your pitiful hate filled efforts to compare Liang to others.
You may call me racist until you’re blue in the face. The FACES at the BOTTOM of the well all look like mine. There are no honorary whites in that crowd.
The more you post, the more you make yourself look lost and confused – and thirsty for blood.
Go back to sleep in your dark coffin. There’s way too much light out here for you to function as a hue-man person. Can’t see your own reflection, it’s no wonder!
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@Kiwi
“Yes, Captain Obvious.”
Can’t be too obvious since you keep bringing up everyone from O.J. to Obama.
“Over a dozen or so posts and in not one do you quote where I’ve shown “support” Peter Liang”
And I guess you forgot you said, as I quoted, ““The fact that he was indicted, not to mention convicted, means that something more was at play, perhaps anti-Asian bias”
It couldn’t possibly be because he is a MURDERER. And don’t bring Abagond back into this again, because he did not defend your position. He specifically told you “What is unjust is not the conviction of Peter Liang, but the non-conviction of so many before him.”
Run along now, you evil, racist scumbag who defends a murderer because he’s yellow.
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Kiwi, generally speaking, Chinese Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. A lot of this had to do with Chinese Americans supporting the war effort in order to prove their loyalty to White people and their homeland. Maybe you do not fault Chinese Americans for feeling that way, which I can understand. I am only curious as to whether you hold other races to the same standard, which I am beginning to suspect you do not.
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@ Kiwi
So you answer my question with another question ?
Again are you outraged or not ?
Your comparisons between the two cases have little in common other then the police are corrupt and the pigs are the real cartels. No charges were filed because the person they hit was drunk. The outcome would have been the same if the person they ran over was white. If I ran over and killed a drunk pedestrian and I was a sober driver I would not be arrested or charged. I would still be open for a civil suit by the victims family.
I said “I am more worried about the future of Blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. then I am of Asians. I understand that my thinking is racist.”
What I said is both honest and true.
Peter Liang magically stopped being a scapegoat when his charges were reduced to criminally negligent homicide. That meant no prison time and probation. It would have been the same outcome if Liang was white. But if Liang was Black the charges wouldn’t have been downgraded and he would be sitting in prison somewhere. Their is a precedent for criminalizing Black police officers when its convenient.
Kiwi said “Generally speaking, Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II.”
Really? You want to go their ? lmao If I recall Jim Crow was still in full force and any Blacks that would have shown any solidarity would have been charged with sedition and shot. That is if any of them survived the lynching’s and beatings whites would have directed at them on their way to jail.
Kiwi asks “I am only curious as to whether you hold other races to the same standard, which I am beginning to suspect you do not.”
That is correct I do not. Thus my previous statement you were kind enough to paste for all of us to examine.
Racism functions as an institutionalized racial hierarchy coded through colorism. Within that hierarchy whites are at the top with Asians bordering whites.
You view racism as if it functions horizontally in society; That all groups can be equally racist. That’s white people thinking.
White supremacy is structured systemically within all social, economic and State institutions based upon the intersectionality of race and power which vertically builds a singular hierarchy which rules over all others.
So in your imagination Blacks can be racist against Asians but in reality Whites and Asians can be racist towards Blacks but it cannot work the other way around because that is not how white supremacy is structured.
You want to share in the oppression that white supremacy manifests towards non whites while deflecting away from the very real assault against Blacks and Browns.
You make complaints against white males that date Asian women but then denigrate those Asian women who made that choice as “breeders”. That’s how white supremacy personally effects you.
We have mass incarceration of Blacks and Hispanics, constant State aggression against communities of color and you want to bash Asian women who date outside their race.
Your missing Afrofems point. If the Asian community ignores State oppression against Blacks and others its to their own detriment. It opens the door to something called blow back.
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@Michael Jon Barker
Well said, MJB.
The late Dr. Ronald Takaki, author of, Strangers from a Different Shore: A History of Asian Americans, described that racial hierarchy as the “terracing of oppression”. In his view, racism did not function horizontally, but like a Mayan pyramid, with terraces from top to bottom.
According to Dr. Takaki, most Americans experienced some level of oppression according to race, class and gender. The further away from the wealthy, White, Christian, heterosexual, male terrace at the top of the pyramid a person fell, the more oppression they experienced in their lives.
The notion that all groups are equally racist/Supremacist is a deflection from the continuing existence of White Supremacist ideology and practice.
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@ Afrofem
@ Michael Jon Barker
LIKE
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@ Kiwi
Hope you’re enjoying your uniform 6 days a week vampire-ish sleep cycles.
I’m surprised you have the time to post at all.
What an utterly ‘bane’ life you lead, in the dark, full of your own sad self, so far away from the light…
😦
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Kiwi… I use to really like you, but you have demonstrated your hypocrisy in this thread,
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@Kiwi,
You said:
“I agree, it does not. It only reinforces my point. Generally speaking, Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. A lot of this had to do with Blacks supporting the war effort in order to prove their loyalty to White people their country, which would later turn out to be a useful bargaining chip to advocate their own civil rights. Maybe you do not fault Blacks for feeling that way, which I can understand. I am only curious as to whether you hold other races to the same standard, which I am beginning to suspect you do not.”
I have to disagree with you on this point. Black civil rights weren’t predicated on their willingness to look the other way when Japanese-Americans were mistreated. At least I can’t find any documentation to support that theory anywhere. Black Americans were still dealing with Jim Crow laws, segregation and open anti-black racism. I’m not sure how being quiet about Japanese internment helped them. It’s not like after the war they were suddenly propelled to the top of the race hierarchy for their supposed loyalty.
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@Kiwi,
I also wanted to say that you have really shown your true colors on this post. Before this issue came up I always sensed that you had an agenda beyond just complaining about the dating habits of Asian women in America. Your focus on this single issue and the arguments you keep brining up tells me that your goal was less about having empathy for other racial minorities and more about soliciting support for your personal views. There’s nothing wrong with that but it is a different face that you’re showing.
For what it’s worth, from what I’ve observed in the US while living here, I have seen repeated examples of prejudice against people with dark skin and “African features”. Whatever prejudices there are against people of other backgrounds, there is always the protection of saying “at least I’m not black”. Sometimes it is deliberate and sometimes it is subconscious. Often to the point that I believe that it’s an indelible part of being an American.
Anyway, maybe you should take a look at your motives with this argument. When a person gets what they want there should be no need to defend themselves. Right?
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In the aftermath of the December 7, 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, anti-Japanese (and anti-Japanese American) sentiment reached a fever pitch in the US. Under such conditions, it was an ultimate act of bravery for anyone to buck the herd and voice any dissent.
Yet, two organizations raised their voices in that atmosphere of shock, blame and revenge: the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and The National Council of Jewish Women (NCJW). Their public objections were not sustained or coordinated, but they were 100 percent more than any other non-Euro or non-Christian groups did at the time.
http://amst103-2012.blogspot.com/2012/04/black-and-jewish-responses-to-japanese.html
Both organizations positions were also 180 degrees from the vitriol directed against the Japanese American population by the White, Christian citizens who were howling for blood at the time. They were also widely divergent from the Chinese Americans who were furious and concerned about family in China who were being brutalized by the Empire of the Rising Sun.
The allegation that, “Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II” is wholly false.
During World War II, nearly everyone in this country supported the war effort. Nearly everyone tried to prove their “American-ness”. African Americans, Jewish Americans, Italian Americans, Native Americans, German Americans and Japanese Americans all wrapped themselves in the flag. For most European descent groups, World War II was their ticket into the gates of Whitopia.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4837181-searching-for-whitopia
For the only two groups to say anything in support of Japanese Americans, World War II was not a major turning point. That would come later….
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1941 was also the year the FBI authorized the infiltration of the NAACP and put them under surveillance.
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As Afrofem has shown in her comment, Kiwi, the childish Asian fascist and expert onanist, doesn’t know what he’s talking about. W.E.B. Dubois took a trip to China in 1936 and tried to sell the notion of Pan-Asian unity, he found no takers. The head of the Nation of Islam Elijah Muhammad a/k/a Elijah Robert Poole spent WWII as a “guest” of the USA.
“On May 8, 1942, Elijah Muhammad was arrested for failure to register for the draft during World War II. After he was released on bail, Muhammad fled Washington D.C. on the advice of his attorney, who feared a lynching, and returned to Chicago after a seven year long absence.[citation needed] Muhammad was arrested there, charged with eight counts of sedition for instructing his followers not to register for the draft or serve in the armed forces. Found guilty, Elijah Muhammad served four years, from 1942 to 1946, at the Federal Correctional Institution in Milan, Michigan. During that time, his wife, Clara, and trusted aides ran the organization; Muhammad transmitted his messages and directives to followers in letters.”
Our ignorant onanist could have found this information on Wikipedia if he wasn’t interested only in showing his disdain for the audience of this blog.
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I can’t help but see the differences between this and the case of Tamir Rice. Liang shot up a stairwell, Gurley was killed by a ricochet then walked past the dying man as someone tried to revive him and he got indicted., Tim Loehmann shot a 12 year old boy directly then stood over the child as he bled out without calling for help then lied about the circumstances until the video came out and due to a corrupt (soon to be unemployed) prosecutor has been allowed to escape any responsibility for his incompetence and lies.
I can see the problem. The Asian community just wants Liang to be given the same immunity from responsibility that a white cop would get.
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Anne said to kiwi:
“I also wanted to say that you have really shown your true colors on this post. Before this issue came up I always sensed that you had an agenda beyond just complaining about the dating habits of Asian women in America. Your focus on this single issue and the arguments you keep bringing up tells me that your goal was less about having empathy for other racial minorities and more about soliciting support for your personal views.”
.
BINGO!
(I would say that kiwi is digging his own grave but apparently that’s already done!)
As far as his true colors go, he has already shown his ratchet colors on the reparations thread when another commenter took him to task for his idiotic warning that Black reparations would cause other non-white people to distance themselves from Black folks.
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I think it must be unusual for a judge to set aside a verdict as was done in this case by reducing a jury conviction to a lesser charge. I am sure this will be reviewed by NY appelate courts as there must be some reason for this, it’s not a whim but since I am not a lawyer I am not sure.
It also seems that the NYPD will have to take corrective action in its training such as CPR, which should be a hands on training, but apparently wasn’t. I would guess that the reason two rookies were sent to Pink Houses was because there must be a seniority roster and nobody with seniority would want that assignment, so the NYPD is going to have to figure out some different ways to accomplish there policing of these areas.
The city of NY is also somewhat bad about repairing/replacing lights in a lot of places around NY, as for example, the recent rape of a teen in a playground that had no lights for a couple of weeks.
I personally do not feel that Liang is a good example of police brutality because it seems to me that it was an accident caused by his and the city’s ineptness. It is good that he was convicted but I don’t see it as murder, like for example, the case of Tamir Rice. The cop in that case should have been indicted and convicted and was unstable and fired from another police agency before he murdered Tamir. He just drove up and shot that kid in 2 seconds and he was already deemed unstable with firearms and police work. The prosecutors do have a lot of influence on these cases and many times do support the police such as in the Tamir Rice case.
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@Rabab,
are you sure that is what “the Asian community” wants?
Maybe some of them think that way, but many of the groups do not, including the ones listed above. Some of them want white cops to have their immunity removed.
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@jefe
Asian activists effectively argued that they should have the right to kill Blacks and get away with it too,, so what conclusion I am suppose to draw from this. The main argument for Peter Liang supporters was that white police officers shoot and kill unarmed black people with no consequences all the time, so he deserves the same privilege. And(surprise, surprise)he got it. Probation and community service for shooting and killing an unarmed black person. If that isn’t privilege I don’t know what is.
I am not an American…. I cant even tell you how f–king P-ssed off this makes.
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^ I don’t think that is the argument of many of the Asian-American activists.
For example, that certainly is not the argument of the groups quoted by Afrofem above:
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Jefe, you’re being cute again. The Asian groups who oppose getting “white privilege” did not support Liang.
This is not surprising, coming from you. You never got around to giving me the evidence that scapegoat applied to the guilty.
” on Sun 6 Mar 2016 at 16:12:35
gro jo
Jefe, How is a goat guilty of the sins of a community of Jews? Where is individual guilt implied or stated in the following: “a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency.” Take your time to answer, I’m in no hurry.”
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@kiwi
“Yeah, can’t be too obvious since you have nothing to say about Afrofem bringing up Seung-Hui Cho or Connie Zhou. ”
There you go again deflecting. I’m not addressing anything but your comment about Peter Liang. Stay focused!
“Run along now, you evil, racist scumbag..”
BTW, I’m overly flattered you love repeating what I say so much. With practise, you can be original too.
” who only criticizes someone because he’s yellow.”
Nice try! I guess you also forgot he is a MURDERER.
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Linda wrote upthread:
“I think it’s mainly immigrant Asian Americans, that pat on the head that they got from white America, causes them to miss the smoke signals and message”
I’m having trouble figuring out how best to word this, so I’m just going to say it outright: I’m basing the following comments on conversations I have heard among Asian Americans, including but not limited to my partner, about a dynamic they’ve observed within the immigrant section of their population. There may be articles and even academic studies on what I’m about to say, but I don’t have the time right now to research it. So if anyone wants to discount this as hearsay from a white person, that’s your right and prerogative.
I agree with what Linda wrote, but I’ve often heard the perspective that the cause of such blindness goes beyond the pat on the head. Many immigrants from Asian countries are used to being the majority group in their homeland. This does encompass race but in many cases also extends to ethnic groups. For example, the Han Chinese in their own country are basically in a position equivalent to whites in the U.S., where they are the ethnic group in charge and look down upon and discriminate against other ethnicities. I’ve read news stories about Han factory owners who got caught using forced unpaid laborers (held against their will and subject to beatings), and the owners’ surprised response was, “But they’re only _____ [insert name of ethnic minority group]. This is all they understand.” So maybe the current position of the Han is more equivalent to whites in the U.S. of 1850 or 1900.
It is therefore often difficult for an immigrant who belongs to the top-dog majority ethnic group of their Asian country to realize they no longer hold that position of privilege in the U.S., or at least that is how the argument goes. In their home country they have the type of unearned, unexamined, invisible majority privilege that whites have here, and such a mindset is not easily discarded. They are used to considering themselves as good as (if not better than) whites. The model minority stereotype just feeds into this attitude, because they think it is a compliment — or even a recognition of their superiority.
Of course Asian immigrants do not have a hive mind, and some do figure out the realities of race in the U.S. pretty fast. But many live in a bubble until something like the Liang case happens, and then they hit a wall of cognitive dissonance. How is it possible that they aren’t being treated exactly the same as the most privileged group??? It’s what they’ve always known and expected.
And so the immigrant Asian community is outraged and takes to the streets, completely tone-deaf to how racist, entitled, and privileged they sound.
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This is pretty much the take on things among progressive anti-racist Asian American groups: years of coalition building with other minorities gone right down the drain because all anyone is going to remember is the Liang protests.
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Something that Solitaire brought up and I have heard expressed is that the idea of racial hierarchies already exists between different Asian peoples and that concept is not foreign to their thinking.
So when coming to America they see themselves as naturally fitting into the upward area of the racial hierarchy we have in place here.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Yes, although it does depend on the status they held in their own country. If they belonged to a low-status ethnic group, they are likely to be far more . . . , I don’t know, racialized? awake? Used to being discriminated against, more likely to see through the smoke and mirrors in the U.S., less likely to expect to be treated as “honorary whites”, etc.
And while I’m not going to argue that American-born Asians are never racist, because again not a hive mind etc., the post-immigrant generations tend to figure out at a very early age that they will never have the same racial hierarchal status or opportunities as their white counterparts. They don’t grow up with the same sense of top-dog privilege that their immigrant forbears may have had.
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@Soltaire
You made some good points.
I want to add one more factor that might account for the Asian (I have also seen this operate similarly with African and African Diaspora immigrants) immigrant sense of privilege. I will call it the “Brady Bunch” factor.
A lot of people overseas consume American made television shows like the “Brady Bunch” and Hollywood movies. They imagine that they are seeing an accurate depiction of the US. They don’t realize that popular television shows, in particular, are fantastical works of fiction.
They imagine an America wholly populated by clean-cut, prosperous, educated, undrugged/sober Euro-Americans who all live in big houses with big cars and White housekeepers. If a Black person happens to appear on the screen they are some outrageous caricature. Generally, Black people and others are completely invisible.
Just think about the shows set in New York and Los Angeles, where an international viewer will hardly ever see Asian Americans, African Americans, Latinos (of any ethnicity) or Arab Americans. Yet, most American cities are teeming with members of these groups and more.
What the “Brady Bunch” factor does is trains people to see the world and the US through the eyes of the affluent White, male writers of the TV shows and movies. From where I stand, that is a pretty distorted view of this country.
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I think Solitaire has a valid point to add to Linda’s.
The post-80s immigrant population who arrived post-Vincent Chen who came from a moneyed or educated family background in their birth country and identified with the majority ethnic group there might have carried subconscious racial privilege concepts with them. When they came to the USA, the model minority stereotype was already promoted in full force by the white media, so they might have imagined that they have been positioned themselves in the racial hierarchy according to the model minority framework, which has a concept of “honorary white”. This might be Linda’s concept of “pat on the back”.
They did not realize that the model minority paradigm is merely a white supremacist construct, but feel they have a stake in preserving that order. It takes a major event for them to realize that model minority is a myth.
Their children growing up in the USA might have figured it out some time growing up that the model minority is a myth, as well as those post-80s immigrants who did not come from the privileged classes or groups in their birth country.
The pre-60s immigrants however, learned the white supremacy social order excluded them as soon as they arrived, if not even before. They will also remember Jim Crow and the civil rights movement and the effect of the wars in Asia on Asian Americans, or at least got a full report of it from their parents. And they know that things have not really changed all that much.
Asian-Americans will have a wide spectrum of feelings and opinions on this, so this might be a partial explanation.
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Afrofem,
You are right. Hollywood has played a huge role in creating this situation by depicting a distorted inaccurate portrait of society.
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Look at following link:
(http://edition.cnn.com/2016/04/26/us/racist-texts-san-francisco-police-officer/index.html)
When we are not yet done with the mistakes made by Peter Liang, behold some other idiot is giving his contribution to the climate of inter-ethnic animosity in America.
Why are those idiots doing this?
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@ Kiwi
What’s that old saying, “know when to hold them and know when to fold them…”.
I’m folding my discussion on this thread. If you wish to continue beating the bones of a dead horse and raging over minutiae, be my guest. None of your arguments casting Liang as victim are convincing to me.
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Silly Kiwi still thinks this yellow police officer has a civil right to murder.
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@Kiwi
“Exactly! Cops have a right to commit murder. ”
Well, that explains why you care so much about Afrofem’s “own and other Black people’s complicity in the violation of other races’ civil rights.” Otherwise your racist comment is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
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Blacks cared a hell of a lot more about that than Chinese Americans did for obvious reasons.
Kiwi, when are you going to stop embarrassing yourself with your bs pan Asian farce and display of ignorance? I mean, I’m glad for the laugh you provide, but, come on!
You don’t give a rat’s ass about Japanese internment during WWII. You would have been cheerleading that policy because, as a Chinese American, you wouldn’t want whites to mistake you for a Japanese, and you’d see their plight as payback for Japanese crimes in China. You whited sepulcher.
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@ Kiwi
You still refuse to answer my question about whether you are outraged over the outcome of Liang’s slap on the wrist.
I’m going to presume you are OK with that since Liang is Asian. Thus the hypocrisy.
Kiwi said,
“The truth is, in your ideal world, Whites and Blacks come first and everyone else comes second and you know I’m right about you.”
You don’t seem to be able to grasp what anarchism is. In my ideal world their are no ruling racial hierarchies. My statement “Racism functions as an institutionalized racial hierarchy coded through colorism. Within that hierarchy whites are at the top with Asians bordering whites.” reflects how the current world is ordered not how I want it to be.
Kiwi said “Okay, so Obama is not a racist war criminal who kills Middle Easterners en masse due to the fact that Blacks cannot be racist towards other races “because that is not how white supremacy is structured”.
The higher non whites rise within the institutionalized racial hierarchy, the less influence they have on actual communities of color, because in order to maintain their elevated position that requires maintaining white supremacy.
“Kiwi said,
“We have racist dehumanization and scapegoating of Asian men by all groups, including Asian women, and you don’t care because they’re not dark enough to be worthy of concern. Why does that sound so, what’s the word, racist?”
It’s not that I don’t care about those issues its just that those issues aren’t incarcerating hundreds of thousands of Asian Americans. An Asian American can drive around all day in a $70,000 BMW and not get profiled for driving an expensive car. If your Black or Hispanic you will get profiled and pulled over.
Kiwi said,
“Asians are at greater risk for genocide.”
As compared to what other group ? Genocide is happening today on small scales all over the planet. Genocide can happen to any group if the conditions are right. I believe that’s Abagond’s point.
It’s possible someday that whites in parts of Africa will face genocide. If it happens it is the blow back directly tied to the consequence of conquest, rape and plunder.
Hitler banned the private ownership of guns in Germany except for his brown shirts. It was then a lot easier for him to round up all the Jews and exterminate them as they had no weapons to set up any kind of resistance.
If the U.S. ever became a Nationalist Socialist State bent on rounding up non whites and interning them for the intent of genocide I would resist that with arms. I have a human obligation to protect and defend the community I live in.
Kiwi said,
“Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II”
I imagine the internment of the Japanese made some Blacks uncomfortable but the reality is they had no power to stop it. You are pretending that Jim Crow didn’t exist back then. But their silence was a survival mechanism, not an endorsement meant to please white people.
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Michael Jon Barker wrote:
This is nonsense, Black Muslims actively resisted and were punished with imprisonment. Elijah Muhammad spent WWII “at the Federal Correctional Institution in Milan, Michigan. ”
Kiwi is just being his usual scumbag self when he pens the type of nonsense he does on this topic.
I don’t see why you would buy into his nonsense when you can find the information for yourself.
You seem to be buying into the notion that Blacks are a monolith. You differ from Kiwi only by positing the equally absurd notion that Blacks are totally powerless to resist. They weren’t silent as you claim, hence the need to lock them up.
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@Grojo
That’s part of my point. While you are true their was some resistance as you mentioned further up the thread I belive Blacks knew that to demonstrate against the Japanese interment meant being sent off to prison. The level of racism leveled at Blacks at that time in history limited how they responded to it.
Kiwi seems to be arguing that Blacks were indifferent to it because they wanted to please white people. I disagree with that observation. The reason I think was more around what they had already experienced at the hands of whites and didn’t want to bring any more of that on.
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So me inferring “silence” was not an accurate representation..
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Did anyone in this comment thread explicitly say that cops in general or Peter Liang in particular had a right to murder?
There are so many comments here, maybe I cannot find it.
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http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Under-pressure-over-officers-racist-texts-7384205.php#photo-9919159
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“I’ve read about Asians being profiled in Arizona since the passage of xenophobic identification laws there. And it’s not just cars. Aside from the “rich Asians driving BMWs stereotype”, Asians also get profiled by immigration, military, and government authorities”
I can confirm this much at least. My Asian American spouse has been profiled by LEOs, INS, and ICE everywhere he has lived and everywhere else in the nation that he has travelled. He has had a campus cop draw a gun on him on the quad in front of his students. He has had a sheriff tell him to make sure he left town before sunset. He has been held in questioning at the U.S. border and threatened with deportation (to the wrong country).
Y’all know the way many African Americans make sure to carry their driver’s license wherever they go, even just to the curb to check their mailbox? My spouse also carries his passport at all times. An expired passport is usually sufficient proof of citizenship, but after 9/11, he started paying to renew his passport even if he wasn’t going to travel outside of the country.
He’s actually done diversity trainings for local law enforcement agencies and then been profiled and harrassed by some of the officers less than two weeks later.
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Abagond deleted stuff I wrote because, unlike you, I don’t kiss his behind. I find your Pan-Asian bs risible because Asians were busy killing each other during WWII. name me one Chinese American who was jailed for refusing to go to war against Japan as Elijah Muhammad was? Your ignorance is vast.
What, I should have ignored the racist reception some Chinese gave Lou Jing and her mother? No doubt, you were as perplexed as they were that a Chinese woman could love and have a black man’s child. Tough, the world doesn’t exist to please you. Your comments on the Mao thread revealed you to be just as ignorant about China as you are about everything else.
You are a true descendant of Sheriff Harry Lee. I make no claim to occupy moral high ground, I leave such nonsense to whited sepulchers like you.
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@ gro jo
Damn, your comment was on the mark! The truth is a dagger to some folks.
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@ Kiwi
Click on –> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skRk35P1q4g)
Cathy Dang – an Asian-American woman of Chinese and Vietnamese descent – made some really good talking points on the Peter Liang issue (20:12-22:12). At 20:59-21:13 she talks about the “scapegoat” term that many Asian-Americans have used in the police killing of Akai Gurley. At 21:52-22:12, Ms. Dang also talks about White supremacy and anti-Blackness and how many people in the Asian-American community are the White supremacist’s volunteers for playing down anti-Black racism (paraphrasing).
Kiwi, let me know if you agree or disagree with Cathy Dang’s statement on Peter Liang serving no jail time.
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I did a page search on “murder” in this thread, and found 83 instances of the word so far. Not a single one featured a commenter who was advocating or defending the right of cops or Peter Liang to commit murder.
Yet I found dozens of instances where people claimed others were doing it.
Please someone find the instances where someone did that. Maybe my browser search function is not working well.
In any case, we should be using the word “homicide”, which includes all forms of actions where a human kills another human. “Murder” is a very specific category of homicide.
Was there any stage in this whole saga where any of the parties (including the prosecutor, Akai Gurley’s family, etc.) advocated that Liang should have been charged with murder, rather than the other forms of homicide (eg., 2nd degree manslaughter)? I am interested to learn about it.
I used to live in NY many years ago, so if I were there, I am sure I would have been able to follow this closely, but the media coverage in my current location has been minimal and spotty. It is great when people provide links to information (like what Linda did above). I can also read French and Chinese and some Japanese and Spanish, so links in any language is fine.
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I can also chime in with the assertions from Kiwi and Solitaire about the racial profiling that affects Asian Americans with law enforcement officials. And it is not just a new thing with Arizona’s racial profiling law. It has been going on for decades (actually, we can even trace it back to the original Chinese Exclusion Act).
Solitaire is right. Whereas blacks (or African-Americans, if you prefer) may find the need to carry their driver’s license wherever they go, even in their front yard, Asian-Americans often find that they need to carry their passports (or green cards if they are not citizens) with them all the time, regardless whether they are travelling overseas or not. Driver’s license does not cut it.
I was travelling with a couple buddies in upstate New York, and we all “know” that we have to carry our passports and be ready to show them to any cop. Once we got stopped by a police blockade doing passport checks in upstate NY. I am sure that local white people have nothing to worry about, but not Asians. Blacks are much more likely to escape unscathed from these road blockade checks, even if they are not carrying passports.
And immigration can be a horrible experience, whether by land, sea or air. I had many instances of immigration officials accusing me of carrying a fake passport and taking me aside for separate interrogation.
Even a micro-aggression like asking me what is my purpose of travel to the USA drives me bonkers, especially when I am in the line for US passport holders (hello, I was born in DC (as stated in my passport), my parents were born in the USA, I had Chinese ancestors in the USA in the 1870s and European ancestors in the USA in the 1770s and Native American ancestors as well).
Once I had an immigration official in Niagara Falls who pulled me aside for some nonsense interrogation (“Where were you born?” “Washington, DC?” What is the address of the hospital you were born in?) and then gave me a fake apology after bending up my passport saying that they have to be extra careful as there are many people trying to enter the USA illegally.
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@ Jefe
“Even a micro-aggression like asking me what is my purpose of travel to the USA …”
Have you ever gotten this when you weren’t anywhere near the border or an airport, just walking around town minding your own business?
Because I know a number of Asian Americans who have, hundreds of miles away from any border or ocean. Just stopped at random to be interrogated about their reason for being in the U.S. and to prove they’re in the country legally.
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Kiwi said,
“I’m going to presume you are OK with that since Ilardi is Black. Thus the hypocrisy.”
Nope. I’m ant-racist because I’m an anarchist and my position is a natural extension of that ideology. Any police officer, regardless of race, who kills without cause deserves to be tried under the same laws that apply to civilians. No special privileges awarded because they are State protected employees. If you make police officers personally liable they will think twice about pulling that trigger. Right now they can get away with murder.
“Tell that to the communities of color who have lost their loved ones to those of color who climbed the ranks of White supremacy. I’m sure it will bring great comfort to them.”
I’m not sure how to respond to that. I would not trust the solutions put forth by so called white allies. Making a police department “diverse” doesn’t solve State aggression rather it masks the systemic nature of white supremacy.
What is true is that the institutionalized racism that powers State aggression doesn’t change and become “softer” if “those of color who climbed the ranks of White supremacy” become part of the system. We can move forward with “community policing” and police wearing body cams but in a society where the actions of the police will not be held accountable then their will not be a drop in mass incarceration or State aggression against communities of color.
I said,
“An Asian American can drive around all day in a $70,000 BMW and not get profiled for driving an expensive car.”
Kiwi said,
“False. I’ve read about Asians being profiled in Arizona since the passage of xenophobic identification laws there. And it’s not just cars. Aside from the “rich Asians driving BMWs stereotype”, Asians also get profiled by immigration, military, and government authorities, an experience you’ve neither experienced nor seem to care about.”
My statement is true in Southern California. It appears that it is different in other parts of the U.S. I would recommend a phone app which records interaction with the police in real time and lives streams to a third party location. If your phone is confiscated you will still have the evidence to file a civil right complaint. You can do the same with a go pro hidden in your car activated by your phone. Their is a reason the ACLU exists.
“I don’t care” seems to be your point. I have written in other parts of this blog about the need for equality of justice that the U.S. lacks in the justice system. I support the rights of all groups to live their lives freely from interference from people, groups, or the State. I don’t have favorites when it comes to rights.
My broader point was is that State violence and the Prison Industrial complex is targeted at Blacks and Hispanics, not Asians. The number of Asians shot dead by police (2015) are underrepresented at 2% of all police shootings.
Jefe said,
“Blacks are much more likely to escape unscathed from these road blockade checks, even if they are not carrying passports.”
The whole idea behind “stop and frisk” in New York are weapon searches, specifically guns and these searches are directed almost exclusively at Blacks. So different groups get targeted for different things based on race.
Kiwi said,
“They may not have been able to stop it but the least they could have done was condemn it, which they generally did not.”
Gro jo already disproved this statement. You use the word “apathy”. Whites showed no apathy and strongly supported the interment. But you want to use the same standard and attribute it to Black moral blindness.
Kiwi said,
“Asians are at greater risk for genocide.”
O.K. lets go their for a moment. At the moment in the U.S. that is not a road that has been built yet. Is it possible ? Yes if the circumstances are right.
If the U.S. and China were to get into a war then Chinese American wealth would be confiscated and their communities contained with fences and National Guard troops.The Chinese would imprison Americans in their country and the same would happen here. The Chinese would confiscate the 57 billion dollar American infrastructure investment tin their country and dump American bonds on the markets to weaken the dollar. The U.S. like wise would confiscate the 60 billion the Chinese State has invested in American real estate and business as well as raid the personal banks accounts, business and homes of Chinese Americans. A president like Trump would blame the Chinese directly and inflame racist attacks against Chinese Americans here. It would be the mutually assured destruction of both economies which leads me to believe a war could be avoided if sociopaths were not in charge of the U.S.
As an American I would resist the war and try to save as many people as I could. It would be the “End of the Republic” as we know it.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
You wrote:
“My statement is true in Southern California. It appears that it is different in other parts of the U.S.”
I wrote:
“He has had a campus cop draw a gun on him on the quad in front of his students.”
That was UCSD.
“He has been held in questioning at the U.S. border and threatened with deportation (to the wrong country).”
That was the San Diego-Tijuana border.
“Just stopped at random to be interrogated about their reason for being in the U.S. and to prove they’re in the country legally.”
That includes (but not limited to) San Diego County, LA County, Riverside County, Orange County, the Inland Valley, the Bay Area, Sacramento, Davis, Lake Tahoe….
You wrote: “So different groups get targeted for different things based on race.”
That’s exactly Jefe’s point. People of color get targeted for different things depending on race–but they all get targeted.
You wrote: “you will still have the evidence to file a civil right complaint”
Hahahahahahaha!
Been there, done that. Futile at best, self-defeating at worst.
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@Solitare
Why did the campus police draw a gun on him ? Their are campus cameras everywhere and an officer drawing his gun unprovoked on a school campus is grounds to get that officer fired.
UC Davis tride to “wipe” the video tape from the Internet of the officer pepper spraying protesters and that just brought the issue back into the news.
Phone cameras are why we know about the criminal activity of cops and that the kind of evidence that has led to some police facing consequences.
50 % of L.A. counties budget go to law enforcement. Over 110 million dollars has been paid out over the last six years settling civil rights violations. It’s not a waste of time and helps put financial stress on the system.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“Their are campus cameras everywhere … Phone cameras are why we know about the criminal activity of cops and that the kind of evidence that has led to some police facing consequences.”
This happened prior to that technology becoming commonplace. Even now, a lot of things don’t get caught on tape. There’s no cell phone footage of the shooting of Michael Brown, for instance.
“Why did the campus police draw a gun on him ?”
Why does it matter?
But sure, let’s air it all out. He was waving a weapon around.
That is, he was giving a martial arts demonstration as part of a larger campus event during Asian American History Month. He was using fake swords and knives made of wood. Obviously wood, not painted to look like metal. His martial arts demonstration had been widely advertised and the campus police department had been notified in advance. He was performing in front of an attentive crowd, none of whom were screaming in terror, running away, or crying for help.
Do you really think the police were going to consider that unprovoked? If he had been shot and killed that day, do you think the cop would have lost his job? Served time?
Dude, it didn’t even make the student newspaper.
“Over 110 million dollars has been paid out over the last six years settling civil rights violations. It’s not a waste of time and helps put financial stress on the system.”
Sure, from a systemic viewpoint it makes a difference. From an individual’s viewpoint, you better have a d*mn good case before you file a complaint, or you risk the police department labeling you a crank and a troublemaker, which will make them less likely to take you seriously when you report other civil rights violations or, honestly, any crime in general. If you’ve got a reputation as a loud-mouthed troublemaker with the cops, they’re not going to do squat when your car gets stolen.
And if you’re really unfortunate, you’ll draw the ire of a particular cop who will make it their mission to keep up a constant stream of harassment and generally make your life miserable.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Yes, you are right. “Stop and Frisk” is targeted more to blacks. Asians are proportionately less targeted for this kind of hassle from law enforcement.
But they are not 100% immune to it. If an Asian is caught in a majority black neighborhood by law enforcement, then they are at increased risk for “stop and frisk”. From a law enforcement perspective, they would reason that an Asian would be in a black neighborhood only for drugs and may be carrying weapons. I have had personal experience with this.
On the other hand, Asians are targeted for hassles regarding their right to be in the USA and also for their loyalty to the US government. I would have to review studies to confirm my suspicions, but I believe that native born Americans of Asian descent would be targeted for this sort of hassle from law enforcement way in excess of any immigrant of African or West Indian origin.
Given the race-based immigration policies of certain presidential candidates, we can expect that we will have more and more “stop and frisk” activity for legal status, hence the need to carry a passport at all times.
Every day we are moving a step closer to confrontation in the South China Sea. If armed conflict were to break out, it could spell disaster for Chinese Americans. The USA does not have a good record on this kind of thing, as we can see with Muslim Americans and before that, Japanese Americans.
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@Solitaire,
As you may recall, I have lived outside the USA for over 20 years, and do not spend much time there. Prior to last year, my last trip there was in 2008. My interaction with law enforcement, at least in the past 20-odd years, may be disproportionately skewed towards border control.
I was a victim of “stop and frisk” in Anacostia (DC). That upset me a lot.
I should ask people I know in the USA if they get that regularly.
Where have you heard of that happening? like in Chicago or Dallas or Portland? or Mississippi?
I did work in a Chinese restaurant in Virginia before, so I know about immigration raids.
Of course, I have experienced that kind of stuff from non-law enforcement people plenty of times. But, I usually just chalk it up to their ignorance.
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Jefe said,
“If armed conflict were to break out, it could spell disaster for Chinese Americans”.
Not just Chinese Americans but Asian Americans in general. All would come under suspicion.
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@michaeljonbarker
I think Chinese Americans would be the government target (eg, they could seize their passports and force them to carry ID cards confirming their right to be in the USA), but I could see other Asians being targeted, e.g., a Korean American church the target of a mass shooting or a bombing or for law enforcement, who might check them to see if they are carrying passports or ID cards.
In any case, it would not be pretty.
It also would not bode well for Chinese Americans who are caught in the Greater China region. They would also be targets of suspicion by the Chinese and we would see many abductions and forced confessions. I really don’t know if many will feel forced to flee to a 3rd country in case that happened. In any case, it cannot be a country with which China had diplomatic relations as those countries have been complicit in extraditing people to China for allegations of breaking China laws.
EVEN if they carry foreign passports and nationality. Just 2 weeks ago, a Taiwanese American was abducted in Kenya and extradited to Beijing for an alleged crime against Chinese laws. If conflict broke out between USA and China, we would see all sorts of sh!t. China would target Chinese-Americans in a heartbeat.
Hope we can avoid all this, but the ruling from the International court of the Hague is due later this month.
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@ Jefe
“Where have you heard of that happening? like in Chicago or Dallas or Portland? or Mississippi?”
Yes. Also Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Memphis, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Iowa, Kansas, Indiana, etc., etc. Up and down both coasts, too. National parks. DC.
Like I said, everywhere.
“I would have to review studies to confirm my suspicions, but I believe that native born Americans of Asian descent would be targeted for this sort of hassle from law enforcement way in excess of any immigrant of African or West Indian origin.”
Are there any studies? I would be interested in reading that!
Just going from observation, there are two main types of profiling of POC in the US. The first is being suspected of criminal activity, the second is being suspected of illegal immigration status. African Americans are disproportionately targeted for the first, all other POC disproportionately for the second, with the corollary that the darker a non-black POC is, the more likely they’ll be targeted for the first as well. So Hispanics of mostly indigenous origin are subject to both types of profiling. For South Asians, etc., the darker an individual is, the more likely they’ll experience both types at some point in life.
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Just after I was voicing concerns yesterday, a new alarming article just came out today (btw, Frank Ching is a very respected Chinese American journalist in HK, with over 35 years experience reporting from HK starting with the Wall Street Journal in 1979).
Beijing seeks loyalty from ethnic Chinese with foreign passports
http://www.ejinsight.com/20160503-beijing-seeks-loyalty-from-ethnic-chinese-with-foreign-passports/
Beijing is keen to curry favour with overseas Chinese, including those born overseas of Chinese descent as well as transnational adoptees.
Stuff like this is really disturbing
Judy Chu’s parents came to the USA over 70 years ago (BEFORE the 1949 Communist liberation) and she has lived her entire life in the USA. If someone like Trump becomes president (ie, the type that questions people’s loyalty or right to citizenship based on their race, and also the type that likes to make “deals” with countries like China), we can expect that they will both agree to hold Chinese Americans hostage. Their national loyalties will come into question. I hope that Americans of all extractions will recognize this intrusion into the fabric of our society.
It will be different from targeting Muslims, as the USA would not be in cahoots with specific countries on that. But with China’s blessing, both the USA and China could enforce divided loyalties on Chinese Americans whether they like it or not.
The Chinese Language press in the USA should also be scrutinized for this sort of intrusion.
Several years ago, I had a very disturbing experience entering China from Hong Kong.
Once when travelling with a group of 20-25 colleagues, incl Europeans, Australians and Canadians (both white and ethnic Chinese), white Americans, HKers, mainlanders, etc, I alone was forced to wait in a separate queue entering China, which I discovered to be only for US passport holders of Chinese descent. My colleagues all had to wait extra 1/2 hr for me as I had additional interrogation. (No one else had interrogation).
In future, this would be common.
I already discussed many instances of problems entering the USA. That also will become more common.
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Stop embarrassing yourself with this incessant display of ignorance. I guess you’ve not heard of the Black Dragon Society. And you call yourself an ‘expert’ on all things Asian! Name me the Chinese American who went to jail because he objected to killing his fellow Asian. I can use the laugh.
What, you drunk again?
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@Kiwi
We are talking past each other. I’m pointing to racial hierarchy and how that functions in society and your talking about stereo types that most people have and police act on.
Are Asians profiled and some killed and discriminated against? Are Asians imprisoned ? Yes of course. But not on the same scale as Blacks and Hispanics. Whites are more likely to be shot by the police then Asians according to current statistics. Blacks are the most likely to be shot of any other group.
My greatest disagreement is your opinion that Blacks were “morally blind” towards Japanese interment. For Blacks to be morally blind they would have had to activity participated in the Japanese interment.
Your suggesting that because Blacks didn’t rise up in the defense of the Japanese that they are just as morally blind as whites who actually did the agression against Alain Americans and dragged them off to camps and stole their wealth.
In your mind everybody is equally racist. That’s just a deflection from the privileges that you benefit from in a society structured through racial hierarchy.
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*actively participated
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@Jefe
What do you suspect is the reason that are trying to curry favor with them now? Or have they always been trying?
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they*
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@Sharina,
This is purely my opinion.
I think various times over the past 160 years, ethnic Chinese in the USA have been used by both the USA and China as political pawns in their diplomatic relations.
But the renewed interest in currying favour with them looks like it might be an effort to gain some political hegemony over the USA. Why would they target Chinese Americans in politics? Why do they want to exert influence over Chinese language media in the USA? Even appealing to transnational adoptees can help accomplish this, as their families may not have been able to help them resolve their appearance with their white cultural and kinship background.
China hates the influence that the USA carries in Asia, so they want to use an avenue to gain influence over the USA (apart from direct confrontation, like in the S. china Sea.)
One thing to play on is on USA’s fear of foreigners, esp. foreign invaders. If China can make Chinese-Americans look sympathetic to China, then other Americans even have more reason to treat them with suspicion, even labeling them as traitors or spies. If those targeted Chinese-Americans do not display sympathetic sentiment towards the PRC, then they would be treated with scorn and contempt by China and their sympathizers (or even something much much worse). We could see more abductions of Chinese Americans by China and the USA would care less (certainly a USA led by Trump), or worse, the use of them as political pawns.
It could resurrect the “blood is thicker than water” sentiment that flared up during WWII and which is still there in the USA.
This could result in a lose-lose situation for Chinese Americans.
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@ Jefe
In the attempts to curry favor, is the PRC making distinctions between those Chinese Americans whose families immigrated from the mainland and those who immigrated from Taiwan?
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@Solitaire,
As China sees Taiwan as part of China anyhow, I don’t think China thinks of it as a distinction in those terms. They see it in terms of racial and ethnic origin.
How is the case of Congresswoman Judy Chu, whose parents came from mainland China BEFORE 1949, different from another Chinese American whose parents came from Taiwan (or Hong Kong pre-1997) but who left Mainland China before 1949? China labels them as Chinese regardless of their actual nationality or where they were born.
You recall the extradition of Taiwanese in Kenya (last month) and Malaysia (last week) to Mainland China over alleged telephone and internet scams after they were acquitted by a Kenyan court? China has told the international community that they are still Chinese. One of them was a US citizen.
You recall the booksellers abducted outside Mainland China who hold UK and Swedish passports respectively who disappeared in Mainland China for months? Then they were shown on public PRC TV asking the UK and Sweden NOT to help them.
China has stated flat out that whatever nationality they actually hold is moot. They are still Chinese.
Imagine if they can convince the American people that this is true.
If the USA becomes more isolationist and pulls out of Asia (a la Trump) unlike Obama’s “pivot to Asia”, this spells trouble not only for Taiwan and international trade, but to Chinese Americans also.
Down the road, it will even spell more trouble for non-Chinese Americans as well. Trump is telling the American people that Mexico is taking over the country? They ain’t seen nuthin’ yet.
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@ Jefe
Everything you wrote is true. I wasn’t as clear as I could have been. What I meant was, in the case of actually trying to curry favor (as opposed to abductions and imprisonment), my guess would be that China would be less inclined to approach Chinese Americans descended from immigrants from Taiwan because the PRC would view that family as Nationalists and opponents to the CCP. I was wondering if this hunch had any validity.
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@Solitaire,
I think I already addressed that question in my first 2 paragraphs above. To China, that distinction is rather moot. Whether you, your parents or your grandparents lived in the part of China that was under the CCP regime, the KMT regime, or even earlier (under the Qing Dynasty), or in the future (e.g., the DPP regime) does not make that much difference if their concept of Chinese is based on race and ethnicity and not on politics or a civic definition, including what country claims you as their national and what political standpoint you might espouse.
(BTW, the “you” here is the generic you and not you personally).
China has already demonstrated that it sees overseas Taiwanese, overseas HKers and other overseas Chinese as Chinese.
Konrad Ng (Obama’s brother-in-law) is a US citizen, born and raised in Canada, with parents originally from Sabah, Malaysia. But China will still label him as Chinese no matter how many countries, nationalities or political regimes came between him and China.
In the USA, as children of Taiwanese immigrants might marry and raise families with children of HK immigrants, or Filipino-Chinese may marry someone who was born in Mainland China and immigrated to the US as a child, to China, they are still Chinese, period.
Currying favour could be a positive thing (just like how the Chinese embassy invited my Aunt who was past president of the Organization of Chinese American Women (OCAW) to all the embassy functions and meetings with the ambassador and senior officials from China or recognizing Judy Chu as the first Chinese American Congresswoman who could influence Congress), or it could be a negative thing (like threatening abduction or imprisonment). Any action which can bring about a set of behaviours which the CCP would approve of could be a form of currying favour.
Some of the past presidents of OCAW were born in mainland China, but fled to Taiwan as children. China still tried to court them.
And they will be more scathing towards overseas Chinese who refuse to behave “properly”. Ambassador Gary Locke used to post the Air Quality Index of Beijing on the US embassy website. Since that website was the main portal for Chinese to inquire about travel and investment and immigration to the USA, the CCP could not exactly shut it down (despite the AQI index of Beijing somehow falling under the category of “National Security issue”). But all the CCP mouthpieces would brand him as a banana and a traitor to the Chinese people and the Chinese race. They would not have done that to a white or black ambassador to China.
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@ Jefe
Thank you for the explanation.
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@Solitaire, Sharina,
Another article about this came out today here.
China vies for hearts and minds of ‘sons and daughters’ overseas
(http://www.ejinsight.com/20160509-china-vies-for-hearts-and-minds-of-sons-and-daughters-overseas/)
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@Jefe
A part of me really hopes this is a building of a bond and not a political ploy. This puts a great deal of lives in danger.
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@Sharina,
I cannot believe that it is simply bond building any more than hacking is bond building. Given the lack of soft power that China has compared to the USA (say, in stuff like Hollywood and sports), China has to find other ways to curry favour (or maybe I should call it a cooperative and sympathetic mindset) overseas.
But, I do remember when I first went to Taiwan for a summer camp over 30 years ago. That too was aimed to win the hearts and minds of overseas Chinese who were foreign citizens, the majority of which were born and raised in other countries. The sympathy then was about the Republic of China regaining control over the mainland.
What I see China doing is very similar. Actually, even to a more calculated extent.
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@Jefe
I agree. A very calculated move. One that I am surprised other groups have not put into play.
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Kiwi said: “Asian complicity in anti-Black racism “proves” that Asians are “privileged”, even to the point that they are at (or near) the status of Whites – even though Liang’s trial disproves all that!”
Kiwi, you’re so full of isht. It’s not the trial that really mattered here, but the end result of the trial (channeling Darren Wilson; Daniel Pantaleo, etc.). Needless to say, Liang is not going to jail for the extrajudicial killing of yet another, innocent Black man just like those mentioned above for doing the same thing.
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Not sure if this was posted but this is an article stating what these Asians are protesting for. They view Liang as a victim. They do not see what Liang did as a crime. So even if there is not a call for an acquittal or an excuse of Akai’s death there is still a lack of acceptance that this guy did wrong. That he committed a crime that should be punished. If you commit the crime then do the time, but those Asians should never scream about bad race relations when it is clear that they are fueling it.
http://nypost.com/2016/02/20/10000-protesters-rallying-in-support-of-ex-cop-peter-liang/
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And before anyone brings up Kizzy Adonis…her punishment should fit her crime as well.
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Kizzy Adonis committed no crime. She proved that she was an incompetent manager who allowed an underling to disregard her authority. All she deserved was a demotion. Liang deserved at least a few months behind bars. His supporters deserve contempt.
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@gro jo
True, but you are quite lenient on the few months behind bars.
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Sharina
A few months is the LEAST he deserved.
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Oh, so the manslaughter conviction was thrown out! I guess the Asian freedom fighters are happy now! Congratulations. He *did* get away with it just like the white ones.
Equal opportunity unpunished slaughter of innocent black people regardless of the race of the killer is what we should all be fighting for! Ah, the sweet aroma of justice!
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@HipHopRecords
Why would anybody waste their money at one of those convenient/beauty supply stores? They over-charge for everything, for me it’s buy in bulk from whole sale store while packing my own water and snacks from home. Either way I’m not necessarily saying it’s a East Vs South East Asian thing. But I know me and my little boy would be dead with a cop like Liang confronting us in an alley way or dark corridor. That’s the thing about Asians, super marginalized and very much self-hating and segregated from one another due to language constraints. There’s no facade of Asian Unity. This cop is probably white-washed and very hateful looking to earn some kind dirty work credit from the NYPD brotherhood. Fuck him….
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[…] (North Charleston, SC) 2015: Tony Robinson (Madison, WI) 2015: Anthony Hill (Chamblee, GA) 2014: Akai Gurley (New York, NY) 2014: Tamir Rice (Cleveland, OH) 2014: Victor White III (Iberia Parish, LA) 2014: […]
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White wannabes are usually among the most virulent ‘white supremacist’. Self-loathing writ large.
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