Operation Protective Edge (2014) is the current military operation the Israeli government is carrying out against Gaza, the third in the last six years. It began on July 8th.
To review:
- 2008-09: Operation Cast Lead: killed 1,417 Gazans, 13 Israelis.
- 2012: Operation Pillar of Defence: killed 150 to 233 Gazans, 6 Israelis.
- 2014-: Operation Protective Edge: killed, so far, about 1,460 Gazans (mostly civilians), 63 Israelis (nearly all soldiers). Over 250,000 Gazans have fled their homes.
Meanwhile, since 2006 Gaza has been under siege by Israel. It is almost completely cut off from the outside world. That is itself an act of war, making Operation Protective Edge merely the latest stage of a long Gazan War. Some call it a genocide.
Immediate war aims: Currently:
- Israel: to destroy the tunnels it discovered. These were used to smuggle supplies into Gaza. Israel says they could be used to send soldiers into Israel.
- Gaza: to end the siege.
Israel has knocked out Gaza’s main power plant. That leaves Gaza with a few hours of power every other day. Worse, it limits the amount of water it can pump from the ground or process as sewage – the makings of a humanitarian catastrophe. There are 1.8 million people living in Gaza.
Israel has called up 16,000 more soldiers in addition to the 70,000 it already has fighting. The Israeli prime minister has warned of a long fight. The operation has sky-high support among Israeli Jews: 91% (as of July 30th).
US support:
- government: While it did condemn the bombing of a UN school by Israel earlier this week, it is still sending Israel fresh military supplies. Secretary of State John Kerry is pushing for a long-term ceasefire.
- media: is “disgustingly biased” in favour of Israel in the words of Rula Jebreal, an award-winning Palestinian journalist. On CNN, for example, Palestinian voices are outnumbered by Israelis three to one. Time magazine shows a mourning Israeli woman – even though 96% of the dead are Gazans.
- public opinion: 42% of Americans think Israel’s actions are justified – or, 65% among Republicans and 31% among Democrats (as of July 25th).
Hamas: Israel’s broader stated aim is to overthrow Hamas, the main political party in Gaza. Hamas would probably be the main party in all of the Palestinian territories if the West Bank had a functioning democracy. The other main party, the Fatah wing of the PLO, has been bought off by Israel and the US. Thus Hamas. The more extreme Islamic Jihad waits in the wings should Hamas fall.
Hamas is the Palestinian wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was the ruling party in Egypt from 2012 to 2013 under President Morsi.
By early 2014 Hamas was running out of money. That forced it into the arms of Fatah a few months ago. The new joint government was ready to make peace with Israel. Hamas was even willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist and renounce violence.
Give war a chance: The US and Israel called off the peace process. Israel constantly talks of peace in words, yet continues to undermine it in actions by building illegal settlements in the West Bank. And why should it stop when the US gives it all the weapons it wants?
See also:
I don’t know what to think about this war other than sorrow for the dead and the people living in fear.
This conflict is so old and there is plenty of guilt to go around.
The region as a whole seems to be filled with extremist hell bent on destroying each other.
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@Solesearch
Maybe think about all the feelings of anger and hatred that will be caused by this war. Twenty years ago there was some hope for a peace in that region.
But how can you try to maintain a peaceful state of mind if your house is bombed every two years?
In the end, everyone in that region will go crazy. If that has not happened already.
I hope some sensible people can find a solution in the future, but for now it appears that Israel is doing it’s best to avoid that.
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@”since 2006 Gaza has been under siege by Israel. It is almost completely cut off from the outside world. That is itself an act of war”
That sums it up well, which the US mainstream media will not talk about.
But Israel is not just keeping Gaza under siege, it is also trying to control Palestinian politics. It is telling Palestinians that they may not choose which government they want, and in June, it moved forward with another land annexation project in retaliation of Palestinian democracy, not violence:
This is why Israel is clearly the aggressor here, and all this talk about a few Palestinian rockets causing the latest turmoil is utter B.S.
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The current government is obviously not interested in any kind of peace. I don’t even know if they have a vision of how it should work out in the future. Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert weren’t exactly nice guys either, but at least you could see how they thought peace could happen.
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Do you think Israel recognises the right of the Palestinian territories to exist? It’s also kind of absurd for it to demand Hamas renounce violence when the IDF is blowing up UN schools.
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Jeff,
“I hope some sensible people can find a solution in the future, but for now it appears that Israel is doing it’s best to avoid that.”
Hamas is doing a pretty good job of avoiding it as well while doing a terrible job of protecting it’s citizens.
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I’m glad a post on this was finally done, Abagond. What is unique about this conflict this time around, is that the governments of several Arab countries are actually putting a lot of blame on Hamas. I’ve heard it’s because they fear an Islamist government coming to power in their countries (Egypt, Saudi Arabia).
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I should probably give Abagond and most people the benefit of the doubt as it is very easy to take in biased or propagandist reporting unless you have consciously trained yourself to translate and avoid it. Even then because of the control the media and popular culture have it can seem like you might be behaving in some dysfunctional way by doing this.
Put plain and simply. Israel is massacring and slaughtering civilians – men, women and children. It knows it is doing this, it apologizes (in some cases) for doing this, but it is still doing this. It is plainly one-sided and it (as Abagond’s post iterates) it is not the first time. But this is the worst it has been so far.
What makes this plainly inhumane (evil) is Israel’s repeated claim that Hamas is using civilians as shields – YET! despite this Israel is willing to launch bombs and missiles at them to kill them and carry out its objectives? WHY?
These are war crimes by any definition. Such actions are immoral, show total disregard for human life and demonstrate for the world to see what Israel thinks about the lives of Palestinian women an children. It is Israelis supremacy in action!
How would the same actions be viewed if those being massacred daily where Israelis women and children? If Hamas used the argument it is the Israelis fault for using them as shields?
This is a moral question which the world is also being asked. One that even this UN official broke down on TV in the face of addressing…
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=694071160684011&set=vb.518947111529751&type=2&theater)
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@Kwamla
Right, and the Israeli gov’ts “human shields” nonsense is akin to saying, “innocent people are wrong for live their lives while we are trying to kill you.”
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@ Kwamla
In this conflict, it IS the Israeli military who are the active arm of killing.
We can see and it is worse than ever. So, this is precisely about perception.
But as Israel’s military is doing the killing, why do they continue to?
Are they simply mindless in their malignity, evil beings?
And why would the Israeli govt still blame Hamas even as Israeli bombs fall?
If Israel is doing the killing, then what is Hamas DOING?
Why can’t the viewer SEE that? I know I can’t.
I wonder how our perceptions, as viewers, are being manipulated.
When I watch the dead, bloody and terrorised children, women and men of Palestine, the emotions I feel rob my perception of all context and I can’t think straight. And, isn’t that the point — to make this A MORAL BATTLE, one that the Israelis (the Jews) have to lose? They are winning the military war but they are losing big time in other ways, day by day.
Isn’t it so that the bombs are aimed at destroying Hamas’ tunnel network — a military structure Hamas’s intentionally built in, and among ordinary homes, and designed to keep the leadership safe within their own tunnels?
Profoundly cynical — but not beyond belief or possibility.
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@ resw77
That is absolute right! The “human shields” nonsense put out by the Israelis state is no different to the tactic of criminal gangsters involved in a dispute
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@ Bulanik,
Sure in any war or politically charged conflict situation our perceptions are indeed open to manipulation. This was a lot more easily done in the past before the age of social media and the internet. When it was very difficult to go and find alternative perspectives which could inform your perceptions.
But now all that has changed. There is a separate going on waged in traditional media, social media and the internet for dominance and control of our perceptions. Some might argue it is actually a lot more difficult now with all the barrage of information to really form any real prospective on important issues. For some this may well be the case.
However, now more so than ever before what is important is not so much having he “right” perspective but realizing your own power to choose or form your own perspective from myriads of differing ones now available. That is a skill which has to be learned and practiced. Those who fail to do this end up being rounded up like sheep, given their perspective and told what to think. This then forms their perception.
And this is exactly what can be seen happening in the Western media right now, today…So it comes as no surprise you should offer the view:
Again, if you know not just where but HOW to look you can find and you can see this. There is no pretense or mystery here. Daily video accounts of men, women and children, so many children, dying and being bombed is by all accounts sanitized in order for it to be shown to us. But even those accounts cab be bypassed on social media.
This is not a NORMAL “war” with both troops fighting each other on the battlefield. This is the perception Israel and Western media are trying to portray. But how can this be when we see and hear only accounts of civilians being murdered?
But there is another story that is omitted from everyone’s perception of this conflict and that is the situation and life experience of the Palestinians compared to the Israelis living on the same land. This perception seems curiously missing from your own account Bulanik?
The situation of the Palestinians living in this region of land has been compared to Apartheid in South Africa. But right now it seems to have eclipsed even that…
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@ Kwamla
Curiously missing? WHAT?
Wednesday 23 July, on the Gaza thread:
Following this, Abagond posted a thread on Rula Jebreal.
Saturday 26 July, on the Rula Jebreal thread:
Today, on The Time That Remains: I asked
Please can expain WHY you arrived at the conclusion you did about what is “curiously missing”.
And, as for “now more so than ever before what is important is not so much having he “right” perspective but realizing your own power to choose or form your own perspective from myriads of differing ones now available. That is a skill which has to be learned and practiced. Those who fail to do this end up being rounded up like sheep, given their perspective and told what to think. This then forms their perception”, have you read my exchanges with King on the Obama weeps for children (drones) thread?
We discuss this very practice in some depth and explored many directions…
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@Kwamla
It would’ve helped if I phrased it correctly, LOL, “innocent people are wrong for living their lives while we are trying to kill you.” And yes, thugs use that all the time, just like the US military in Iraq used the same “human shields” argument as an excuse for killing thousands of civilians.
We are dealing with a lunatic in Netanyahu. Just listen to the crazy stuff he says: “We use missiles to protect our people. They use people to protect their missiles.” What kind of sense does that even make? And people expect us to believe Israel is justified when it’s run by a crazy person?
And here’s what Nutsinyahoo said about the tunnels, “Israel will continue to destroy terror tunnels and this is only the first step of disarmament,” and “with or without a cease-fire,” and “the sole purpose…is the destruction of our civilians and the killing of our children.”
If that’s so, then why haven’t terrorists been using these tunnels over the last month to kill Israelis in Israel? Where’s the evidence that these are “terror tunnels?” It’s just propaganda from Israel’s nut-in-chief
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@ Kwamla
contd…
And in those discussions about media, the word “cattle” was used.
We discussed empathy and apathy:
Regarding being, as you say “rounded up like sheep…”
And so on.
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[…] Operation Protective Edge (2014) is the current military operation the Israeli government is carrying out against Gaza, the third in the last six years. It began on July 8th.To review:2008-09: Operation Cast Lead: killed 1,417 Gazans, 13 Israelis.2012: Operation Pillar of Defence: killed 150 to 233 Gazans, 6 Israelis.2014-: Operation Protective Edge: killed, so far, about 1,460 Gazans (mostly civilians), 63 Israelis (nearly all soldiers). Over 250,000 Gazans have fled their homes.Meanwhile, since 2006 Gaza has been under siege by Israel. It is almost completely cut off from the outside world. That is itself an act of war, making Operation Protective Edge merely the latest stage of a long Gazan War. Some call it a genocide.- Click through for more – […]
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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I don’t know the situation in the US, but in Europe I don’t get the impression that the media generally is biased in favour of Israel, even though Germany is traditionally one of the more pro-Israeli countries.
Bombings that couse civilian deaths are not necessarily war crimes. It depends on many things. There are two clear cut cases: If Israel bombs with the intention to kill civilians, it’s a crime. If they bomb military targets, and they didn’t know and there was no likelihood of a civilian presence, it’s not a crime. Everything in between is a difficult legal setting, where one can come to different conclusions.
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What only a few have mentioned is that Isreal is an extension of white european colonialism just as american is, and Isreals action are sanctioned by america the current dominate imperial power in the world.
Just as Isreal has overwhelming miltary resources compared to the Palestinians ,america has 10 times the military resources of the world combined.
I find it interesting that both south africa and isreal have Nuclear arsenal ,gotten at least in the case of isreal directly from you know who.
I really don’t see as much agency in hamas as I do america europe and isreal
Your poor and have experience continuous humiliation and abuse , but how dare you hate those that oppress you and to violently attack or try to is unreasonable.
One other thing america ,europe,isreal,south africa ,same or similar phenotypic group doing the oppressing.
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@ Kwamla
Forgot this one, also from the Rula Jebreal thread:
“Like many, I am waiting for the time when it becomes “fashionable” to label the Israeli state as an Apartheid State. I’ve heard it used, but is yet mainstream and Standard? I think not.
Perhaps there WAS a time between 1948 and 1994 that the “the media”, the mainstream, said South Africa was a level playing field, and a straight, equal and even fight between the Afrikaaner and ANC “terrorists”.
I don’t know either way.
It’s taken for granted NOW, in hindsight, that it was NOT a level playing field, that murdering the non-white population was plain murder, and no “defence” at all.
Time has moved on, and perhaps the image of the conflict is more controlled and managed to appear like it’s about Two Equal Sides.
It can AFFORD to.
Israel’s stand, and righteous perspective can be broadcast day and night for years to come if the US continues to pledges aid to Israel at a rate of $3 billion per year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/09/us-israel-usa-defence-idUSBREA4807A20140509 “
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I concur completely with Kwamla’s first post in this thread.
@Kartoffel, I’m in the UK. In my opinion, our BBC is not biased in the sense of reporting things in an overtly skewed way. The bias is more subtle: it consists of omission, of selecting representatives of both sides for debate, but mismatched in eloquence, etc.
Euro media, especially British, IS biased, and not just on this issue.
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Of course every media is biased in some way, I just don’t see a pro-Israel bias across the board. In Germany there is the powerful Springer media group, which is outspokenly pro-Israel. But that doesn’t seem to have much effect, the population is generally hostile to Israel (though not exactly in favour of the Palestinians either).
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@Mbeti
I agree with you on this! I also feel that Israel is an extension of White colonialism as well as America. Why else does America always have Israel’s back on everything going on in the Middle East? Both America and Israel are allies in promoting and enabling White European colonialism around the world and oppressing other nations. Thus I agree with your logic.
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What you willing overlook is that the rocket attacks on Israel in the weeks and months before were an act of war
I suspect many here only have a problem with Jews defending themselves
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BadWolf
“I suspect many here only have a problem with Jews defending themselves”—Instead of suspecting the wiser choice is to ask.
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Once again, the Jews are ruining lives and controlling other people’s countries. They control the USA too, just more subtly.
As the great Michael Jackson said, “kick me, kike me, don’t you wrong or right me.”
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@Bobby M
Even though I a pro Palestine, I don’t like reading anti Semitic views. No, I am not a Jew but a Black woman.
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There is one and only one reason for this: money.
Just before Hamas began shooting rockets into Israel, it was announced that the Palestinian authority and Russia had agreed to develop the Gaza gas field, estimated worth of 4 to 7 billion dollars. This would have made the PA the richest in the region and would have able it to buy the hearts and minds of the Gaza people from the Hamas, who has been gaining its popularity by different hand outs and charity work around the Gaza.
So in order to block their enemy, the Palestinian authority, Hamas began lobbing rockets into Israel, massive numbers too, without hitting anything. I think after 1000 rockets they were able to kill one israeli civilian, which tells anyone with any military experience that they were really trying not to hit into anything for real.
Thus Israel got its reason to enter to war. And block the russian-palestinian gas deal by force.
This naturally was more than acceptable by Obama administration which is currently fighting in Ukraine for its gas and oil resourses, as it is in Syria and elsewhere. Joe Bidens son was named as the no 2 boss in the biggest ukrainian energy company which has its drilling rights in the eastern Ukraine. Btw, just yesterday there were news that one american general was wounded in eastern Ukraine plus three other americans, who were not supposed to even bethere, officially.
So, the real reason behind this war is natural gas and Gaza gas field and who gets it. Former brittish PM and Irak war starter Tony Blair has also been active behind the scenes trying to get Gaza gas field into the western energy companies.
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FFS. Why do so many people immediately condemn “Jews” because of Israel’s actions? Many diasporic Jews are horrified by what they’re seeing. Even some Israeli Jews. Don’t condemn a people because of the actions of a state.
That anti-Semitic backlash is as moronic as the indiscriminate hostility that was directed by the ignorant towards Middle Eastern and South Asian people after 9/11.
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http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/business/2014/01/russia-palestine-offshore-gas-field-gaza.html#
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/EU-says-open-to-working-with-Palestinian-unity-government-355252
If there is a war over gas I’d rather believe that it’s because Israel wants to control Gaza’s gas reserves over the Fata-Hamas Unity Government.
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@ buddhuu
FFS. Why do so many people immediately condemn “Jews” because of Israel’s actions? Many diasporic Jews are horrified by what they’re seeing. Even some Israeli Jews. Don’t condemn a people because of the actions of a state.
That anti-Semitic backlash is as moronic as the indiscriminate hostility that was directed by the ignorant towards Middle Eastern and South Asian people after 9/11.
Precisely…
@ sami parkonnen
There’s something familiar about that… Thanks, sami parkonnen.
Sometimes I think of Israeli military actions as an offshoot of a colonialist mentality, but calling it “colonialist” gives it too much dignity. It is in fact closer to criminal activity.
This makes me believe, more and more, that settler societies, each and everyone, have genocidal tendencies.
Profits and gain are usual enough motivation for them.
Their colours and creeds may vary, but the tendencies are not that different from each other.
David Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, and Ariel Sharon all saw violence work for them. Why work for peace when they stood to gain so much from war?
Sharon and Begin carried out that 1982 invasion of Lebanon, that ended up in the massacres at refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila.
It didn’t hurt that Menachim Begin went on to become Israel’s most decorated statesman, streets and buildings a-plenty named after him.
Ariel Sharon became Prime Minister.
I don’t believe anyone was punished for these massacres.
Then I remembered what some English Jews had told about their own parents’ experiences in Israel as young people: the leaders of the Zionist movement and their agents were basically gangsters. Their primary motivation was earning a living through racketeering and profiteering.
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@ buddhuu
Precisely…
@ sami parkonnen
There’s something familiar about that… Thanks, sami parkonnen.
Sometimes I think of Israeli military actions as an offshoot of a colonialist mentality, but calling it “colonialist” gives it too much dignity. It is in fact closer to criminal activity.
This makes me believe, more and more, that settler societies, each and everyone, have genocidal tendencies.
Profits and gain are usual enough motivation for them.
Their colours and creeds may vary, but the tendencies are not that different from each other.
David Ben Gurion, Menachem Begin, and Ariel Sharon all saw violence work for them. Why work for peace when they stood to gain so much from war?
Sharon and Begin carried out that 1982 invasion of Lebanon, that ended up in the massacres at refugee camps of Sabra and Chatila.
It didn’t hurt that Menachim Begin went on to become Israel’s most decorated statesman, streets and buildings a-plenty named after him.
Ariel Sharon became Prime Minister.
I don’t believe anyone was punished for these massacres.
Then I remembered what some English Jews had told about their own parents’ experiences in Israel as young people: the leaders of the Zionist movement and their agents were basically gangsters. Their primary motivation was earning a living through racketeering and profiteering.
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@ Sammi
Thanks for what you said here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/war-in-gaza-operation-protective-edge-2014/#comment-245979
I did a google search with totally banal, straightforward terms like:
• “palestine” “russia” “gas” “gaza” (I also used “P.A.” and “Palestinian Authority” in my first searches. I dropped them when the results came back with almost no major western media sources.)
I dropped down to just those four terms and then three. The results of the first google page stayed pretty much the same. I wondered if NYT or Wall Street Journal would come up in my search or The International Herald Tribune but, nope, they did not. The search results were an unpleasant reminder of The Propaganda Model (Herman and Chomsky).
Sammi, I’m curious, where did you read or hear about the Gaza gas development agreement?
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@Legion
I produced a link in a post following sami’s.
Granted it’s not a ‘major western media source’.
Here’s another:
http://www.jpost.com/International/Abbas-seeks-1-billion-energy-deal-with-Russia-339206
That’s not a ‘major western media source’ either but it is an Isreali news agency (The Jeruslaem Post).
Quote:
“The agreement reportedly includes a massive natural gas project in the Mediterranean sea off of Gaza.”
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Well,dont worry, the Russions will take care of this mess..
After all, they stood up to American Imperialism in the Ucraine , didnt they? They snatched the Crimia oil reserves to make sure those yankees and Biden’s son arnt conquering it..and they are sending weapons and training to the rebels to make sure they stop the imperialism…
and by gosh, USA general and solders in the east of the Ucraine ….bingo..cia involvement in the civilian flight that got shot down…I mean, they are in everything…ISIS, Boko Harem , Ucraine, Venezuela, of course they shot that plane down…cmon, put two and two together…hey, I think they are improving from lsd suicide missions…now they have trained the so called “fundimentalist Islamic terrorists” to ask if people practice Islam and if they say no, they shoot them…now there is some sound strategy, throw everyone off by making sure they ask directly if they practice Islam and shoot them if they say no….brilliant…no one could suspect them of working for the cia…
but, people can take hope…I hear there is a secret coalition, getting ready to ban together and confront and fight the usa and defeat it from the face of the earth
you got Russia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, they have pursuaded ISIS to kick out the cia and make up with Iran because they have the great satan in common to defeat…they are trying to pursuade China to forget they are tied at the hip with the USA as far as bonds, Venesuela, Equador and Bolivia and Argentina will come from South America….Al Quaeda and the Taliban…
so there is hope..hope the USA will finaly get defeated from the face of the earth..and truth and justice will return to all….
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Crimea is a different story. Crimea was a part of the Russian Federation and many Crimeans are ethnic Russians and speak the Russian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea
They voted to rejoin Russia after the elected Ukrainian government was overthrown in Kiev. Of course, Russia has geopolitcal interests there as they have a major Black Sea military base at the city of Sevastopol and therefore Russian soldiers were ALWAYS in Crimea by agreement with the previous Ukrainian government. But the media reports of Russia ‘anexing Crimea’ in an act of agression and comparing Putin to Hitler is propaganda designed to scare people and prime them for war. Sarcasm is no substitute for knowledge.
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oh, i dont compare it to hitler, I compare it to the usa..china..venezuela…cuba…al queada…
imperialism is imperialism…
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It’s not imperialism if the people voted freely and contrary to some suggestions I couldn’t find any actual evidence of coercion.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2014/03/16/crimea-weighs-joining-russia-as-ukraine-threatens-to-fight/
“The situation deteriorated quickly once Yatsenyuk took over because one of his first orders of business was to remove Russia as the second official language in Ukraine, ticking off millions of ethnic Russians who live in the far east of the country.”
“In the Crimean peninsula, more than half of the population is of Russian descent and the MAJORITY there speak Russian as their first language. ”
[caps mine]
Do the math.
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sending weapons into the Ucraine is the definition of imperialism…
oh, because they wanted to change the language, and Russia swoops in and takes it over, it isnt imperialism? If the USA did that anywhere for those reasons, people would scream bloody murder …and you know it
its hypocracy….I dont nescasarily blame the Russions for doing that to the Crimia for those reasons…but it is imperialistic…sending weapons into the Ucraine is imperialistic….dont be hypocritical
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Rule of thumb: when people vote democratically in a way that does not suit the ambitions of a certain powers they become separatists and terrorists.
BTW, the link above is from a forbes site or blog not a direct forbes report. Nonetheless, the information is easy to verify.
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Origin, the situation in the Ucraine is much more complex than saying the Crimia voted to be with the Russions…it used to be part of the Ucraine…they had their election also…Crimians decided they didnt want to be a part of it, Russia swooped in militarily and took over…no matter how you slice it, its imperialistic…again, I dont think that was totaly wrong..i dont think everything the USA does out in the world is totaly wrong too
its people who scream bloody imperialism at the usa but wont hold others up to the same standards , that is a huge hypocracy going on in many political agendas out here these days
if you dont get that if the usa did anything like that out in this world , they would be screamed at, and called imperialistic, but , Russia does the same thing and you dont call them that , is hypocritical…
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Educate yourself on the issues B.R.
Don’t let patriotism blind you.
If you really love your country you’d want to avoid needless wars.
Nonetheless, let me go with your assertion that Russia is being hypocrtical and they shouldn’t have anything to do with Ukraine. Why the F does the USA have anything to do with it? What do you see when you look up Ukraine and Russia on a map? Ukraine is to Russia as Canada is to the USA. Would you like an anti-American government to depose the duly elected government of Canada? How do you think Canadians close to the border who are accustomed to good relations with the USA would feel? What nearly happened when Russia was developing the capability to launch missles from the island of Cuba?
The actions of NATO/The USA/The EU in Ukraine are provocative.
Anyway I’m done. I don’t want to contribute to thread derailment.
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nope, i didnt say the Russians shouldnt have anything to do with Crimia or the Ucraine situation, I said the opisite..they actualy do have a reason to do that
I have educated myself , in a big way…this is exactly how i see the hypocracy..
the world is dirty…that is the truth…i dont love everything the usa does, but , based on the realities we see out here and in recent history including world war 2, i do want my country engaged in the world…doing just what Russia does, or Cuba, or China or Al Queada, or what Chavez did with Farc…etc
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Thanks for those links Origin.
Perhaps you misunderstand me here. After the very telling search results I got, I realize that there will be no, or quite few, major Western sources on the Russian-PA gas development deal. I do not doubt the news story itself. More importantly, I don’t doubt a thesis which states that the motivation for Israel’s current Gaza offensive is motivated by an Israeli-US intention to arrest this surprising and disappointing (from a US/Israeli perspective) economic opportunity for the Palestinians. The sour taste in the mouths of senior American govt. officials, that Russia would be the developer of the assets, should also not be underappreciated. I would guess that Sammi seeks out non Western media as part of his media diet; I simply want add whatever he read to my own.
Al-Monitor is in your first pair of links, they also came up in my search. I didn’t read them at the time but I made a mental note to check them out later. Something else that looked interesting was Middle East Monitor, it reminded me of Christian Science Monitor. I’ll have a look at your links, thanks again.
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Well, I’m very keen on understanding how it is engaged because the fruit of that engagement will have to be consumed whether sweet or bitter.
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@Legion.
Yes, I did understand your post (you mentioned propaganda models). Thanks for clarifying anyway. I also realized, after posting, that my response sounded rather sarcastic due to multiple references to the phrase you used.
Sorry about that!
lol
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B.R
“it used to be part of the Ucraine…they had their election also…Crimians decided they didnt want to be a part of it”
I have to correct you here. The current government of Ukraine was not elected. The elected government was overthrown.
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Origin said:
But the media reports of Russia ‘anexing Crimea’ in an act of agression and comparing Putin to Hitler is propaganda designed to scare people and prime them for war.
Some months ago, an acquaintance of mine –a very ignorant man, who is not a “bad” man, and thus demonstrates that ignorance itself can cause great harm– told me, with sincerity and earnestness, that Putin was “like Hitler” and his [Putin’s] ambitions were to take over many states in Europe. I laughed as one must in an awkward moment such as that and then tried to give him some other dynamics to the situation that he hadn’t considered. He listened, a little, but he wasn’t swayed much. He really thinks that there are “good guys” and “bad guys” in international politics and that the Anglo-West is, of course, “good”.
That “good guy” “bad guy” narrative has a lot of life in it because of (among other things) World War II –a war like no other. But the narrative is a control technique to maintain blindness in average folks or just damn ignorant folks. You’d think more people would think to challenge the narrative, no matter their station in life, if only for it’s jaundiced cliché model of how the world works. Smh that people can swallow such a simple and silly model of international state affairs.
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@ Origin
re: the possible sarcasm thing
Lol! Yeah, I wondered about that, which was a bit of a motivation to give that extra clarifying comment. Anyway, no problem.
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@Legion.
Exactly! Geopolitics is very dynamic. Many Russians died in WWII fighting against Hitler’s Germany as well. Yet the following decades found the Soviet Union and the USA in a Cold War.
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@bulanik:
This came out at once from google:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/war-and-natural-gas-the-israeli-invasion-and-gaza-s-offshore-gas-fields/11680
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http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/telegenic-israels-crumbling.html
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@Kwamla
Most people don’t realize the extent to which effort is devoted to managing their perceptions.
Anyway, here’s a bit of irony to add to all the tragedy.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/30/world/meast/mideast-crisis/
“While there were calls on Israel to do more to protect civilians, the United States also agreed to Israel’s request to resupply it with several types of ammunition, a U.S. defense official told CNN on condition of anonymity. It’s not an emergency sale, the official said.
Among the items being bought are 120mm mortar rounds and 40mm ammunition for grenade launchers, the official said. Those will come from a stockpile the United States keeps in Israel, which is worth more than $1 billion.”
ALSO
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/21/us-to-send-47m-in-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza-strip/
“The U.S. is sending $47 million in humanitarian aid to the besieged Gaza Strip to help tens of thousands of Palestinians there who have been forced from their homes since war broke out two weeks ago.”
AND
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/gaza-power-plant_n_5634723.html
“As lawmakers on Capitol Hill scrambled to approve increased military funding for Israel this week, a little-noted federal agency across town prepared to spend as much as $84 million to compensate an American company for losses sustained in the Israeli bombardment of a Gaza power plant. ”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The USA is helping to pay for both destruction and construction! Can’t get a more literal interpretation of the great seal right? Branch in one talon and arrows in the other. Is it the American elite’s transcendence of good and evil in pursuit of its designs? Divinity?
Isaiah 45:7
“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.”
Just an example. There are many other traditions which suggest that gods are beyond traditional ideas of good and bad.
Zbigniew Brezinski, [former foreign policy advisor to Obama adminstration] Between Two Ages, America’s Role in the Technotronic Era 1970
“The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by AN ELITE, UNRESTRAINED BY TRADITIONAL VALUES. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.”
The above, from 1970, is almost prescient when we think about the extent of surveillance that exists today. Attitudes such as the above (and the mooted Operation Northwoods) as well as the popular support for pre-planned wars which the event generated is part of the reason I have no cognitive dissonance with the possibility of government complicity in 9/11. Maybe the ambition at work is not merely the desire to gain more and more wealth but to achieve the status of Nietzschean Uebermensch. Gods among men. Who knows? Whatever the motivation the actions are causing a lot of suffering for many people. Yet, the blindness (and often greed) of the many greatly helps the few to manipulate them at will. Which is precisely why it is so important for them to control how people process events.
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@ abagond
Are you planning a post on ISIS? I would be interested in your take on it.
After all, it’s similar to the Gaza conflict:
– members of a major religion (in this case, Sunni Islam) are attacking members of other religious/ethnic groups (Shia Muslims and Christians)
– the US helped arm them (see the photo of McCain with leaders of ISIS)
– there are no real moves from any Western country to intervene and stop the bloodshed.
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This is exactly the point I wanted to illustrate Origin which your excellent commentary quite thoroughly analyses and links break down.
We all need a context and perspective from which to view present globally instigated conflicts. They are CONNECTED! While we view each tragic event in isolation trying to make sense of how it could have occurred from the few facts available. These elite “God playing” psychopaths are already engaged in plotting or carrying out the next atrocity. Leaving the mass deluded, sheep-like, conspiracy shy and God fearing public to stumble blindly in the darkness attempting to explain away all theses seemingly unconnected incidents…
The Gaza conflict, with the overtly barbaric behaviour of the Israelis, has succeeded in pushing this once before deceptive agenda into the foreground. In plain sight of all those who wish to view it. In other words it can on longer to thought of or seen as type of conspiracy or deception. It is out in the open for the whole world to see! Yet still people will deny what is happening?
This is the power of being able to manage perceptions. To turn Black into white and white into Black again
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@Bulanik
“…Please can expain WHY you arrived at the conclusion you did about what is “curiously missing…”.
Unfortunately, your latter comments provided more of the context I was referring to which (although posted else where) I had not seen. So I only had your initial comment in this post here to speak to.
Even though those subsequent comments address a bigger picture. There is yet an even greater context which has unmistakably emerged from the contributions of sami parkkonen and Orign.
Its these delusional “god-like” war games which Western elites like the UK, US and Israel have been playing for centuries which is the perception that really needs to addressed. Otherwise it will continue to elude and divide the masses of people (like B.R) whose perceptions are still at the level of trying to resolve conflicts and disputes on the basis of politics and religion. When clearly these are only providing a necessary smoke screen for a much more heinous and morally corrupt agenda.
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Kwamla, elude?
Hardly…I get some of my best information right from the horses mouth, like documentaries about Castro , with him pontificating , made in Cuba , translated into portuguese and shown on the little anti American Brazilian tv station down here…you see, Castro knows what his actions and intentions are…he will talk about being sponsored by the Soviet Union and then when the money stopped..and he will brag about their exploits into Africa…which is as imperialist as the USA…
or docus about Che, made from Cuba, and how most of his exploits after Cuba were miserable failures…like the Congo , or his demise in Bolivia…and his meglomania…even when they are trying to honor him…when you just look at the truth about him, its pretty pathetic…you see, they beleived in their Marxism, while multi millions were being eliminated because of its nature, so, they will brag about their imperial exploits, and che will talk about wanting to start 1000 vietnams in South America…and then i see the docus how the marxist Brazilians ate that crap up , and inspired them to start their flawed , failing , pathetic armed revolution..
origin is trying to rationalise about russia, but, no matter how much you rationalise, the truth is, Russia has been sending weapons into eastarn Ucraine, sophisticated enough to bring down a passenger jet airliner…and that is covertly and overtly interfering in Ucraines internal affairs, which is what imperialism is…see, I accept what Russia did, like understanding the Savanah , or , how countries are like giant perameciums, acting and reacting in place, swallowing some, others fighting back.I understand that most of the people in the Crimia identified with Russia, but, no matter how true that is, Russias actions still would fall under imperialism…
its people who try to set the USA to a differant hypocritical standard, tell half truths about the world and what happened, and wont criticise when other countries, isms or fundimentalist religions do the same thing, or much worse…sorry, the usa has nothing like the multi millions destroyed by communism in a very short space in time in the last century…not in war, just being eliminated..or the mass populations mandated to do back to the feilds or some idealistic marxist crap that starves multi millions under the weight of its flawed beaurocratic dogma…that is what we were fighting against…and of course, the usa looks after its own interests…gees, I would tell any country to not outright trust America, just dont bend over in the shower with the other countries, or isms or religions
And, I dont go into some strange denial about what is happening with violent Islamic fundimentalist slaughters in Africa and try to sluff it off on the cia…this is suposed to be enlightened discusion? Even the fundimentalists themselves would be insulted you are saying the cia is sponcering them ..that is what is hilarious here…everything is sluffed off as cia organised..I mean people must think ISIS is cia sponcored…
the Palistinians have been doing their own pr campain, like the Olympics in 72, and kidnappings of airlines and boats , this isnt western propaganda, that was their intention…they use these acts as their pr…its not made up by western media, they play the media for a sucker, but , western media doesnt invent those things…this observation is independant if you agree with their cause or not…of course i perceive the one sided reporting of western media, but, they always are one sided and you always have to read between the lines…but, i dont miss the message that Olympic bombings ( i hate eric roberts as much as any of them, the olympic bomber in the usa) and plane kidnappings are trying to get across
Kwamla, are you guilty of your own observation of me on American foreign policy?…you just want to beleive the one sided version and wont take the time to just acknowledge the whole truth happening
many things are unraveling at an unbeleivable pace in various areas in the world, and violently and to think the usa is responsible for all of this, or the cia is organising it, is extremly naive…and exactly because of what i see going on in the world right now, I am happy to have my country engaged in the world..they have made horrible mistakes, but have also made the right desicians in other cases
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* simple and stupid model, actually.
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It is of consequence to note that lately there have been some media coverage of i guess the 100th anniversary of wwi and how that was seemingly the end of, for lack of a better term, ‘gentlemans warfare’: ie send them out in the fields to shoot at each other. Wwii definitely ushered in the policy of bombing civilian population centers, and well, again, until we take responsibility for our own governments’ action, unfortunately tjis type of thing will occur.
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You’re right B.R!
Not about me being guilty of my one observation of you about US foreign policy. – You are a classic example of the masses caught up in the war of manipulated perception: “…To turn Black into white and white into Black again…”
Yes…You are right that the US/CIA is not responsible, by itself, for all the created acts of terrorism happening in the world right now. However, they are the primary culprits involved in instigating or influencing them!
But they are not alone…The US government, in fact all particularity Western governments are politically influenced and controlled by forces with agendas outside those governments. And this is what we can really start to see now in the Mafia Style actions of Israel’s behaviour in GAZA – This is really what is unraveling.
Those forces play immoral war games of divide and rule not really caring who wins/looses or even who is ultimately responsible for atrocities taking place. So long as we keep ourselves preoccupied in the dramas, we may not have initially instigated, but now we embrace as our own. And so it continues…
Your own last extensive commentary about the Geo-political dramas of different countries and governments (everyone must have somehow missed?) illustrates the point beautifully!
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@ Kwamla
You’re making the mistake conspiracy theorists have always made. Of course the governments are influenced by groups and persons who have certain interests, some of them act immorally. That is the most trivial thing in the worlds.
To have any meaning and gain any knowledge you have to be specific what player wants what and what the limitations of their power is. Is the CIA a powerful entity within the US government? Absolutly. Do they have objectives not shared by the adiminstration? Certainly. How much power do they have to influence international affairs? More than any secret agency in the world, but still very little. It’s in the nature of secret agencies that we know of their successes only in retrospective, but if the history of the Cold War is any inclination, their “war games” fail more often than not.
It is naive to think that the government aren’t influenced by players with hidden agendas and immoral goals. But it’s unreasonable just to assume that the governments are completly controlled by one outside grop.
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@ Kartoffel
Well said.
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@ Kartoffel
I’d hardly state that persons who acting immorally was the most trivial thing in the world?
This is warped thinking! Its also called “relative moralism” providing a license to be pragmatic about morality as it suits you. Precisely the way Israel is behaving right now!
The assumption you are making, and those who are quick to label something as “conspiracy theory”, is that we KNOW most there is to know about the world we live in. But WE DON’T!
This comes back to perceptions again. We assume if we don’t already know something then if can be specifically broken down and explained then we can know and understand it.
This blog has been attempting to do the same thing with Racism (white supremacy) for god knows how many years without great success!
Its self-delusional to think and believe we live in an open society of no real great secrets kept hidden away from us. What could such an assumption possibly be based on that couldn’t easily be challenged?
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You missunderstood me. I don’t condone immoral behavior or think it should go without consequences. But you have to reckon with it.
I think in the long run there are no secrets. Eventually the guardians of a secret die or are no longer in power, so that nobody cares if it’s kept anymore. Of course if a conspiracy has no paper trail at all you can’t detect it anymore, but I think at least for the last 200 years in the West that is highly unlikely. Of course you can never know, if there is something you don’t know, but I think it’s safe to assume that we know about any conspiracies that happened before 1945 and most that happend before 1989. And if you look at history you’ll see that there were conspiracy theories that were correct and others that weren’t. There are also those which have a true core but are blown out of proportion.
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Yes…I too share this view Kartoffel: “…I think in the long run there are no secrets..”
This is what informs my view. There are no secrets period! Eventually everything can be known. But to understand or fully appreciate that we have to step outside or place ourselves outside of the boundaries of what we think we already know. That means focusing within ourselves rather than the outside reflections of ourselves.
So really this:
“…but I think it’s safe to assume that we know about any conspiracies that happened before 1945 and most that happend before 1989. ..”
…is just an arbitrary assumption based on what? What we already think we know now that could never be challenged? Or based on what we don’t want to know and ignore? (Like so called conspiracy theories?)
If I be honest I would say 80-90% of what we think we already know is either, false, misleading or a complete fabrication. But that estimate is just me. Everyone else will have their own telling percentages…
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I base the assumption on the accessability of documents. To government documents we normally have access after 30 of 40 years, classified documents are sometimes secret for a longer period of time, but I haven’t heard of a period more than 70 years (except in the Vatican). Of course you can’t trust a government to reveal emberassing documents, but after 70 years even the most heinous crime isn’t politically emberassing anymore. But more importantly several regimes have fallen and their most secret documents are now public. For example we now know pretty much everything the West German intelligence agenices did during the Cold War, because the documents of the former East German intelligence agencies are accessable.
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Kwamla, I have no problem looking at Americas hyper role in the world , how much it has botched , tried to manipulate , and destroy , as long as there is some world context..after world war two , America assumed a role it played out uncomfortably, and sqared off against another ww2 Victor , the Soviet Union .and , yes , I beleive there are hands at work behind the scenes , that push these conflicts for profit and power , above , even , a countries interest…in fact have no problem promoting wars between countries for geo political profit power and gain…
Im not sure if you agree , but , I include the Castros, Chavezs, Bin Ladens, etc and the hands behind them in these lists, and , I suggest its various seperate hands , that sometimes combine for these results and sometimes conflict…
That is my fundimental point on all international world politics discusions
Finding ways for the populations to somehow regulate directions , because , I dont think you can ever totaly eliminate the behind the scenes manipulations,would be the challenge , in my opinion..and , I do beleive people can meet that challenge , but , it takes the kind of mass commitment that people made , that kicked the music industry down on its knees…I guess getting something for free was enough incentive to do that…focused mass effort on world corporations and in country goverments , could aceive some results
Of course , there will always be behind the scenes power players and manipulaters , and , sometimes , real reasons populations decide to attack or go to war with one another
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This is wrong on so many levels. For one, it shows an American pathology too many seem to have missed.
The American government would go out of its way to help a nation like Israel. It recently sought to spend $225 million for a drone program for Israel. Here’s the thing. Those millions of dollars are going towards strengthening a nation’s military might that has enough firepower of its own. Yet, those millions could have been spent here to help poverty like with Detroit’s water bill situation.
I see no other logic behind it. America spends millions and billions on the military and it seems its for the same reason why Israel feels the need to obliterate Palestinians, to protect themselves or for defense. I guess that’s why it has more sympathy for Israel. The two are heavily alike.
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B.R
“origin is trying to rationalise about russia, but, no matter how much you rationalise, the truth is, Russia has been sending weapons into eastarn Ucraine, sophisticated enough to bring down a passenger jet airliner…and that is covertly and overtly interfering in Ucraines internal affairs, which is what imperialism is…see, I accept what Russia did, like understanding the Savanah , or , how countries are like giant perameciums, acting and reacting in place, swallowing some, others fighting back.I understand that most of the people in the Crimia identified with Russia, but, no matter how true that is, Russias actions still would fall under imperialism…”
I won’t even comment on the MH117 crash because there seems to be a lot more insinuation in the media than actual evidence of who’s guilty.
Anyway, my point wrt to events in Ukraine is that the Western powers are being provocative and then selling ideas of Russian ‘aggression’ to their populace. The destabilization of Ukraine is a proxy war against Russia in order gain control of a country with which it has deep historical ties and shares a border. Miscalculation (or calculation?) could lead to open warfare.
If you even look at history over the last few centuries, which countries had far-flung colonies Spain, Britain, Germany, Portugal, France, The Netherlands…or Russia? So now they are deliberately encircling Russia by expanding the EU and NATO, installing missile ‘defenses’ (really to gain first strike capability) and collapsing Ukraine’s elected government while simultaneously selling the idea that Russia is being ‘aggressive’. That is just not, in my opinion, an accurate representation of events. They are the ones doing the pushing!
In just the last decade or so we (meaning the ‘West’, I’m obviously against this) have directly or indirectly overthrown the governments of Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, and we’ve been eyeing Iran, going after Syria, and want a shot at Russia. Presently, the so-called ‘good guys’ are the ones drunk with ambitions of global domination regardless of what it will take. If it turns out badly for us history will remember ‘our side’ as it did Hitler and the Germans of his time.
As for ‘conspiracy theories’…I don’t like the term. What we were told about 9/11, for example, is a ‘conspiracy theory’ denotationally just the official one. We were told that Osama Bin Laden planned and co-ordinated the conspiracy from his cave in Afghanistan. So the labelling of a theory of events as a ‘conspiracy theory’ is exploiting the negative connotation of the term in order render alternative explanations irrelevant without even having to address their evidentiary or circumstantial merit. Brilliant but unfair!
Words have EMOTIONAL IMPACT not just a dictionary meaning. From an emotional standpoint ‘conspiracy theory’ means “I’ll be considered foolish if I don’t dismiss this without consideration”. Since nobody wants to be thought of as foolish an idea that is labeled a ‘conspiracy theory’ is understood as something you’re not expected to believe. So the attitude you should take is effectively suggested from the outset by two innocent words. Because of its manipulative effect, I don’t consider it a particualrly useful term in a honest discussion.
Anyway, it’s interesting that the ruthless often say exactly what their ultimate aims and ambitions are:
http://books.google.com/books?id=duwqSxjG6hAC&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=hitler+in+my+ordensburgen&source=bl&ots=hLky_TbJ24&sig=aPcv3ydMU6doxCFeLbAUMg2pT2o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BWrfU6PqCKm28gGryYHgBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
Hitler:
“… Those who see National Socialism nothing more than a political movement know scarcely anything of it. It is more even than a religion: it is the will to create mankind anew.”
The new man:
“… armed knights, who had to be capable administrators but also formed a priesthood with its mysteries (Heimlichkeit), a hierarchical organization with a knowledge hidden from the profane world”
“…In my Ordensburgen a young generation will grow up before which the world will shrink back. A violently active, dominating, brutal, intrepid youth – that is what I am after … There must be no weakness or tenderness in it …
… In my academies the figure of the magnificent, self ordaining godman (Gottsmensch) will stand as an idol; it will prepare the young men for their coming period of ripe manhood.”
How many ‘normal’ people are capable of entering the minds of those whose only lust is for indomitable POWER over others? When they openly say they want to be ‘gods’ or intend to be ‘unrestrained by traditional values’ what does that mean in terms of the atrocities they will be capable of? It is food for thought.
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@ Kartoffel
Agreed. Disclosure of some information will be withheld if it links to,or is traceable to, later directives or actions, already “in play”.
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@ Kwamla
I’m not sure what you’re really saying here — or why, Kwamla.
This is first time you’ve isolated one of my comments to tell me my reaction is “curiously missing” when King, Sami, Jefe and others, and I, have discussed “Bigger Pictures” at length, in detail, and before on a long raft of subjects.
Not least on the Drones thread, also on other places, on my own! Lol!
Not all immediate reactions to watching children being killed are “intellectual.” Feeling honest emotions are part of being empathetic to the suffering of others.
I would have thought is essential to the process of thinking for oneself.
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Correction: *I would have thought that would be essential to the process of thinking for oneself.
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While this may seem a reasonable enough assessment it is only partially ever the case. This is because such reasonable practices are only to maintain a certain level of perception. That perception is that governments are honest, true and non-corrupted, most of the time. Particularly treasured Western democracies. But is this really so?
Those of us who research such things know this can be far from the truth. It is simply not the case that classified documents will normally be released after due process in specified years. The reason so many issues and scandals are coming to light, at this moment, (Institutional child abuse, implicating the Catholic church and the UK Queen/Royal Family to name just one) is not because classified documents have been finally made available?
Its because people have come forward to testify about these hidden cover-ups!
Its then that we begin to search and demand access to such incriminating documents. Which, as you both point out, we may or may not be given access!
So the “normalized perception” that we will eventually get access to most information after the passage of time is a FALSE one!
Meanwhile we collude amongst ourselves as agents in our own delusion that this is really the case. When our reality is far from it!
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@ Bulanik
“…I’m not sure what you’re really saying here — or why, Kwamla…
All I am simply saying here, which my subsequent comments should have alluded to by now, is that what is taking place right now, certainly concerning the Israeli slaughter in GAZA, is part of a much grander global objective.
If you believed you already covered this else where. Then thats fine!
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@ Kwamla
It’s based on the fact that all institutions run on paper. Howerver secretive and manipulative an institution is, it needs to communicate effectively within. Take again as example the european communist regimes. They were as secretive, manipulative and oppressive as you can get, but know every one of their schemes lies open to us. Of course that would have taken much longer if they had remained in power. But the eastern archives even tell us a lot about the governments that are still in power.
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@ Kartoffel
I don’t think you really get what I am saying do you? Even paper document trails can be burned, held back, falsified or destroyed can’t they?
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And I think that that is not possible anymore. Modern institutions simply produce to much paper to ever destroy everything. The communist regimes tried and had a reasonable amont of time and man power at their disposal. And of course they managed to destroy a lot, but it’s still enough to know pretty sure what they did for four decades.
Of course there is no guarantee that something was not written down or everything has been destroyed. But I don’t think that can happen with any major action or policy that involved more than a few people.
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Well, Origin, I apreciete your diologue, but, I just dont agree with everything you are saying…
You bet the Ucraine and Russia share a history, and it isnt all a peaceful one…Stalin killed many from the Ucraine…the Nazis came in and apealed to the people there with German heritage…there is obviously a very complex history
and , you seem to omit, Nato was created in the shadow of the Soviet Union…I think the millions eliminated under the Soveit Union is a big reason to understand the dynamic about Nato…how can you omit that? Its a major point..i mean major major
we can really have a huge disagreement about 9/11…why take up this thread with it, but i have never ever seen any direct proof that any clandistine Ameicans pulled it off…nothing concrete on any leval..ive read most all the theories..i havent used conspiricy theory as a phrase yet, but, it could be a valid one in that debate…obviously bin laden wasnt in a cave, he was in Pakistan, thank gosh we got him
each example you gave of the west conquering could be gone over on their own complex merits to see what they really mean…i condemn Iraq, but not Afghanistan
wow , so you actualy entertain the passenger flight shot down could be a cia hit…
Origin, there may well have been Western pushing in trying to influence the Ucraine people impeaching the elected president, who had a lot of incriminating evidence against him…but the volume of people who came out in the street to get him out, is the real deal…the cia cant make that happen…they could try to influence Egypt, but, deep down, I think the ouster of the Muslim Brotherhood is much more internal and has a huge history , they assasinated Anwar Sadat…I think things happened much more internaly with Egypt and Syria than you want to give credit too…the cia as the boogey man can be a huge blinder to the real truth..ive seen this in South America big time and recognise it exactly for what it is
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Ill tell you, I really dont want to comment on Isreal and the Palistinians
I actualy beleive if a person is not Israeli, Arab, Palestine or Jewish, a person is askng to be set up to a firing squad to get in the middle of an argument about it…i mean that is my opinion
a person can give his opinion , but, a person really living there , or who is Jewish or Palistinian or Arab, is going to return a whithering responce to anyone who isnt living close to the subject
On this blog, people can get some points against Isreal without much disagreement because there arnt that many practicing Jewish commenters on here, sure everyone knows someone Jewish who doesnt like Israeli agresion, but, if a person goes around to all circles with an anti Israeli opinion, they will eventualy have someone from Israel who will strongly opose that opinion and vice verca about a Palistinian
beleive me, im not saying to anyone dont give their opinion , im just saying I have no desire to really get in the middle of this discusion about Israel and Palistine…and only will be tugging this discusion into other areas…I really shouldnt be commenting on this thread because I dont have a definite opinion about it, and am not going to get railroaded to the firing squad when im really am not commenting one way or the other about that conflict
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http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Tractor-hits-bus-injuring-2-in-suspected-terror-attack-in-Jerusalem-369993
Unfortunately in my considered opinion the current political situation in the greater jerusalem area is about like the opening of 2001 a space oddyssey and when you consider the monolith in a biblical context its not good
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B.R
“wow , so you actualy entertain the passenger flight shot down could be a cia hit…”
Where did I say that? lol I don’t know for sure what happened to flight MH17. But after Iraq WMDs and many other lies I think it’s prudent to be suspicious of officials mouthing off before there has even been a proper investigation. I know there’s a campaign to demonize Russia despite what can only be described as Russian restraint in the face of provocation. Again, anti-American government in Canada… we would freak out!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
Audio of the above transcript.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PcHqDjSmJI)
Yeah…it’s all a spontaneous protest by the “Ukrainian people” to have a new government chosen for them without a vote. There might have been some genuine discontent but I believe it was hijacked to overthrow the Yanokovich government.
Re 911: I’m quite comfortable that, at the very least, it was allowed to happen. Cui Bono? There was a certain agenda among some neocons (who later became the government) and it wouldn’t have been politically possible to pursue it without the shock of 9/11. Multiple wars and legislation like the patriot act were desired though Americans were more interested in reduction in military spending after the end of the Cold War. A new enemy was needed. Looking back, almost everything that they wanted has occurred courtesy of American anger and fear after 9/11. You’re unlikely to find a smoking gun but there are little irregularities here and there.
Remember the anthrax scare in Washington DC that happened a week or so after 9/11? Why were top white house staff put on the antiobiotic ciprofloxacin up to six weeks before any of this happened? Foreknowledge?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011023/aponline201158_000.htm
Things that make you go…hmmm…
Anyway, I don’t think evidence is the real barrier. How much independent evidence do we have about anything pertaining to the event? Little. We were looking for answers and we accepted what we heard on the news. Depending on what one feels about the moral character of leaders it may simply be impossible to accept the possibility of ‘false flag’ terrorism in America. Yet it’s interesting that false flag attacks on American soil were mooted before though not carried out. See the declassified Operation Northwoods:
Wikipedia:
Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:
“The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.”
So this kind of thing is not unthinkable. People employed by the government of the USA thought about terrorizing Americans in order to attack Cuba. So the whole idea that it is too far-fetched to be considered is naive. If Department of Defense considered it in 1962 I CAN CONSIDER IT as a possibility to explain 9/11 and subsequent events.
I’m not trying to convince you just explaining my perspective. So I’ll leave it at that before abagond gets annoyed at our derailing the thread. lol
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Mbeti,
“What only a few have mentioned is that Isreal is an extension of white european colonialism just as american is, and Isreals action are sanctioned by america the current dominate imperial power in the world..”
Not only that but that zionism is europe’s answer to its anti-semitism. The Jewish people had nowhere to go. They could stay in europe and be massacred and/or oppressed or they could accept europe/america’s plan and be “repatriated” to Israel where they would get to do the massacring and oppressing.
Not much of a choice.
So of course America and Europe give Israel billions in aide. It is their creation, their answer to the Jew problem.
The same way racists saw “Back to Africa” as an answer to the Negro problem.
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Anyone have any opinions on this? —-Dual citizenship/Israeli citizens in top U.S. government positions…..
https://www.facebook.com/notes/we-are-all-vittorio-arrigoni/list-of-politicians-with-israeli-dual-citizenship-/175479365845092
Michael Mukasey
Recently appointed as US Attorney General. Mukasey also was the judge in the litigation between developer Larry Silverstein and several insurance companies arising from the destruction of the World Trade Center.
Michael Chertoff
Former Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, at the Justice Department; now head of Homeland Security.
Richard Perle
One of Bush’s foreign policy advisors, he is the chairman of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board. A very likely Israeli government agent, Perle was expelled from Senator Henry Jackson’s office in the 1970’s after the National Security Agency (NSA) caught him passing Highly-Classified (National Security) documents to the Israeli Embassy. He later worked for the Israeli weapons firm, Soltam. Perle came from one the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktanks, the AEI. Perle is one of the leading pro-Israeli fanatics leading this Iraq war mongering within the administration and now in the media.
Paul Wolfowitz
Former Deputy Defense Secretary, and member of Perle’s Defense Policy Board, in the Pentagon. Wolfowitz is a close associate of Perle, and reportedly has close ties to the Israeli military. His sister lives in Israel. Wolfowitz came from the above mentioned Jewish thinktank, JINSA. Wolfowitz was the number two leader within the administration behind this Iraq war mongering. He later was appointed head of the World Bank but resigned under pressure from World Bank members over a scandal involving his misuse of power.
Douglas Feith
Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel. Like Perle and the others, Feith is a pro-Israel extremist, who has advocated anti-Arab policies in the past. He is closely associated with the extremist group, the Zionist Organization of America, which even attacks Jews that don’t agree with its extremist views. Feith frequently speaks at ZOA conferences. Feith runs a small law firm, Feith and Zell, which only has one International office, in Israel. The majority of their legal work is representing Israeli interests. His firm’s own website stated, prior to his appointment, that Feith “represents Israeli Armaments Manufacturer.” Feith basically represents the Israeli War Machine. Feith also came from the Jewish thinktank JINSA. Feith, like Perle and Wolfowitz, are campaigning hard for this Israeli proxy war against Iraq.
Lawrence (Larry) Franklin
The former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst with expertise in Iranian policy issues who worked in the office of Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith and reported directly to Feith’s deputy, William Luti, was sentenced January 20, 2006, “to more than 12 years in prison for giving classified information to an Israeli diplomat” and members of the pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
Franklin will “remain free while the government continues with the wider case” and his “prison time could be sharply reduced in return for his help in prosecuting” former AIPAC members Steven J. Rosen and Keith Weissman, [who] are scheduled to go on trial in April [2006]. Franklin admitted that he met periodically with Rosen and Weissman between 2002 and 2004 and discussed classified information, including information about potential attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq. Rosen and Weissman would later share what they learned with reporters and Israeli officials.” (source: sourcewatch.com).
Edward Luttwak
Member of the National Security Study Group of the Department of Defence at the Pentagon. Luttwak is reportedly an Israeli citizen and has taught in Israel. He frequently writes for Israeli and pro-Israeli newspapers and journals. Luttwak is an Israeli extremist whose main theme in many of his articles is the necessity of the U.S. waging war against Iraq and Iran.
Henry Kissinger
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Kissinger sits on the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board under Perle. For detailed information about Kissinger’s evil past, read Seymour Hersch’s book (Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House). Kissinger likely had a part in the Watergate crimes, Southeast Asia mass murders (Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos), Installing Chilean mass murdering dictator Pinochet, Operation Condor’s mass killings in South America, and more recently served as Serbia’s Ex-Dictator Slobodan Milosevic’s Advisor. He consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Kissinger is the Ariel Sharon of the U.S. Unfortunately, President Bush nominated Kissinger as chairman of the September 11 investigating commission. It’s like picking a bank robber to investigate a fraud scandal. He later declined this job under enormous protests.
Dov Zakheim
Dov Zakheim is an ordained rabbi and reportedly holds Israeli citizenship. Zakheim attended Jew’s College in London and became an ordained Orthodox Jewish Rabbi in 1973. He was adjunct professor at New York’s Jewish Yeshiva University. Zakheim is close to the Israeli lobby.
Dov Zakheim is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and in 2000 a co-author of the Project for the New American Century’s position paper, Rebuilding America’s Defenses, advocating the necessity for a Pearl-Harbor-like incident to mobilize the country into war with its enemies, mostly Middle Eastern Muslim nations.
He was appointed by Bush as Pentagon Comptroller from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004. At that time he was unable to explain the disappearance of $1 trillion dollars. Actually, nearly three years earlier, Donald Rumsfeld announced on September 10, 2001 that an audit discovered $2.3 trillion was also missing from the Pentagon books. That story, as mentioned, was buried under 9-11’s rubble. The two sums disappeared on Zakheim’s watch. We can only guess where that cash went.
Despite these suspicions, on May 6, 2004, Zakheim took a lucrative position at Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the most prestigious strategy consulting firms in the world. One of its clients then was Blessed Relief, a charity said to be a front for Osama bin Laden. Booz, Allen & Hamilton then also worked closely with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is the research arm of the Department of Defense.
Judicial Inc’s bio of Dov tells us Zakheim is a dual Israeli/American citizen and has been tracking the halls of US government for 25 years, casting defense policy and influence on Presidents Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Judicial Inc points out that most of Israel’s armaments were gotten thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value.
Kenneth Adelman
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Adelman also sits on the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board under Perle, and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Adelman frequently is a guest on Fox News, and often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. Through his racism or ignorance, he actually called Arabs “anti-Semitic” on Fox News (11/28/2001), when he could have looked it up in the dictionary to find out that Arabs by definition are Semites.
I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby
Vice President Dick Cheney’s ex-Chief of Staff. As chief pro-Israel Jewish advisor to Cheney, it helps explains why Cheney is so gun-ho to invade Iran. Libby is longtime associate of Wolfowitz. Libby was also a lawyer for convicted felon and Israeli spy Marc Rich, whom Clinton pardoned, in his last days as president. Libby was recently found guilty of lying to Federal investigators in the Valerie Plame affair, in which Plame, a covert CIA agent, was exposed for political revenge by the Bush administration following her husband’s revelations about the lies leading to the Iraq War.
Robert Satloff
U.S. National Security Council Advisor, Satloff was the executive director of the Israeli lobby’s “think tank,” Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Many of the Israeli lobby’s “experts” come from this front group, like Martin Indyk.
Elliott Abrams
National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based “Think Tank” Ethics and Public Policy Center. During the Reagan Adminstration, Abrams was the Assistant Secretary of State, handling, for the most part, Latin American affairs. He played an important role in the Iran-Contra Scandal, which involved illegally selling U.S. weapons to Iran to fight Iraq, and illegally funding the contra rebels fighting to overthrow Nicaragua’s Sandinista government. He also actively deceived three congressional committees about his involvement and thereby faced felony charges based on his testimony. Abrams pled guilty in 1991 to two misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year’s probation and 100 hours of community service. A year later, former President Bush (Senior) granted Abrams a full pardon. He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Reagan Administration’s State Department.
Marc Grossman
Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. He was Director General of the Foreign Service and Director of Human Resources at the Department of State. Grossman is one of many of the pro-Israel Jewish officials from the Clinton Administration that Bush has promoted to higher posts.
Richard Haass
Director of Policy Planning at the State Department and Ambassador at large. He is also Director of National Security Programs and Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the first Bush (Sr) Administration who sat on the National Security Council, and who consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Haass is also a member of the Defense Department’s National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.
Robert Zoellick
U.S. Trade Representative, a cabinet-level position. He is also one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Bush (Jr) Administration who advocated invading Iraq and occupying a portion of the country in order to set up a Vichy-style puppet government. He consistently advocates going to war against Iran.
Ari Fleischer
Ex- White House Spokesman for the Bush (Jr) Administration. Prominent in the Jewish community, some reports state that he holds Israeli citizenship. Fleischer is closely connected to the extremist Jewish group called the Chabad Lubavitch Hasidics, who follow the Qabala, and hold very extremist and insulting views of non-Jews. Fleischer was the co-president of Chabad’s Capitol Jewish Forum. He received the Young Leadership Award from the American Friends of Lubavitch in October, 2001.
James Schlesinger
One of many Pentagon Advisors, Schlesinger also sits on the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Schlesinger is also a commissioner of the Defense Department’s National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.
David Frum
White House speechwriter behind the “Axis of Evil” label. He lumped together all the lies and accusations against Iraq for Bush to justify the war.
Joshua Bolten
White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Bolten was previously a banker, former legislative aide, and prominent in the Jewish community.
John Bolton
Former UN Representative and Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security. Bolton is also a Senior Advisor to President Bush. Prior to this position, Bolton was Senior Vice President of the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktank, AEI. He recently (October 2002) accused Syria of having a nuclear program, so that they can attack Syria after Iraq. He must have forgotten that Israel has 400 nuclear warheads, some of which are thermonuclear weapons (according to a recent U.S. Air Force report).
David Wurmser
Special Assistant to John Bolton (above), the under-secretary for arms control and international security. Wurmser also worked at the AEI with Perle and Bolton. His wife, Meyrav Wurmser, along with Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli military intelligence, co-founded the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri),a Washington-based Israeli outfit which distributes articles translated from Arabic newspapers portraying Arabs in a bad light.
Eliot Cohen
Member of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor. Like Adelman, he often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. More recently, he wrote an opinion article in the Wall Street Journal openly admitting his rascist hatred of Islam claiming that Islam should be the enemy, not terrorism.
Mel Sembler
President of the Export-Import Bank of the United States. A Prominent Jewish Republican and Former National Finance Chairman of the Republican National Committee. The Export-Import Bank facilitates trade relationships between U.S. businesses and foreign countries, specifically those with financial problems.
Steve Goldsmith
Senior Advisor to the President, and Bush’s Jewish domestic policy advisor. He also served as liaison in the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives (White House OFBCI) within the Executive Office of the President. He was the former mayor of Indianapolis. He is also friends with Israeli Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert and often visits Israel to coach mayors on privatization initiatives.
Adam Goldman
White House’s Special Liaison to the Jewish Community.
Joseph Gildenhorn
Bush Campaign’s Special Liaison to the Jewish Community. He was the DC finance chairman for the Bush campaign, as well as campaign coordinator, and former ambassador to Switzerland.
Christopher Gersten
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families at HHS. Gersten was the former Executive Director of the Republican Jewish Coalition, Husband of Labor Secretary.
Mark Weinberger
Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs.
Samuel Bodman
Deputy Secretary of Commerce. He was the Chairman and CEO of Cabot Corporation in Boston, Massachusetts.
Bonnie Cohen
Under Secretary of State for Management.
Ruth Davis
Director of Foreign Service Institute, who reports to the Office of Under Secretary for Management. This Office is responsible for training all Department of State staff (including ambassadors).
Daniel Kurtzer
Ambassador to Israel.
Cliff Sobel
Ambassador to the Netherlands.
Stuart Bernstein
Ambassador to Denmark.
Nancy Brinker
Ambassador to Hungary
Frank Lavin
Ambassador to Singapore.
Ron Weiser
Ambassador to Slovakia.
Mel Sembler
Ambassador to Italy.
Martin Silverstein
Ambassador to Uruguay.
Lincoln Bloomfield
Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs.
Jay Lefkowitz
Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council.
Ken Melman
White House Political Director.
Brad Blakeman
White House Director of Scheduling.
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I don’t know if this is true that the Jewish people had “nowhere to go” or they would be eliminated. To my knowledge, they weren’t particularly oppressed or marginalized people in Germany prior to the Nazi’s actions. There are many Jews of European origin still living in Europe and the USA. They are not all in the state of Israel and they aren’t being massacred. The post above shows that many are functioning in prominent positions.
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Gee.. I wonder whose side Abagond is on? Wasn’t clear from the very balanced post above…
Actually, I’m of two minds about this situation. One the one hand, if there was a militarily weaker, but more numerous, enemy at your borders who hated you and elected a terrorist government with your extermination explicitly in its charter, and who constantly sent thousands or rockets into your country making your citizens live in fear and killing dozens, I would be kind of inclined to consider that an act of war and proceed accordingly, even if it meant displacing all those poor innocent civilians who voted for an explicitly terrorist government.
On the other hand, many Jews have been strong proponents of diversity, multiculturalism and open borders in the U.S. Maybe they should see the consequences of that in their own country. If a future Arab majority in Israel votes for the persecution and eventual extermination of the Jews there, well that is democracy in action.
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The legal discrimination in Western and Central Europe ended for the large part in the 19th century. Progroms weren’t common there any more in 1900, but they still were heavily discriminated against. Not just in Germany, look at the Dreyfus Affair in France. Hatefull stuff was said about them all the time. I don’t believe the Holocaust was an unavoidable development, but it certainly couldn’t have happened without the deeply ingrained Anti-Semitism.
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BTW, just noticed that the Victoria Nuland Pyatt audio I linked in a post above was edted to be funny. The real one that corresponds to the transcript is out there so if anyone really wants to listen to it (I doubt it…) they can look for it.
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Hi Biff,
can you please cite the article in the Palestinian charter that calls, in your words, “explicitly” for “extermination” of Israel.
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@Legion
Hi Biff,
can you please cite the article in the Palestinian charter that calls, in your words, “explicitly” for “extermination” of Israel.
Yup. In the meantime Israel can exterminate the Palestinians …..
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Origin. Im trying to look at your links…for sure, I know the USA is trying to exert influence in the Ucraine…and they did have the second election and a moderate who was not pro russia won , so , there is some indication that a lot of the population does not fall in a pro russian stance…again, Im more inclined to accept Russias actions in the Crimia, but, in the same way I accept that Israel exists..my point is, though, Russia is acting as Imperialistic as the USA, just like Chavez, while condeming the yankee imperialists , is practicing imperialist behaviour aiding and abbetting Farc, when he was alive and that was affecting the whole area , including Brazil in horrible crack and cocaine and arms deals and violence
I do want to say, Origin, I have always respected your input on white racism in the USA, and , remember the wonderful pictures of New Orleans Indian blocs that reminded me so much of “Caboclos in Maracatu Rural”, in an amazing cultural way
so, I want to say that , for example, I agree , that there were sighs in 9/11, that were sluffed over, and great incompatence from the cia and fbi…whether higher ups just let it go on purpose, i dont know…i knew someone who had an office in the Empire state building , and she said they got bomb threats in the hundreds everyday at the Empire state building…trying to figure out the ones that really are severe is hard…but, I think of the cia as blundering and imcompetant in many aspects..it just happened in Boston where they did try to warn us about the bombers
and, its funny to me about the 9/11 conspiracy notions…the real truth is more incriminating than any notions…a group of hyper concervative republicans like Wolfawitz, Chenny, Cristoff (sp?) i forgot if Rumfeild was in there, but back in the early 90’s, sighned a manifesto about invading Iraq…you cant get any more ridiculous than that and i really do hold the American people responsible for not going and holding these people up to more scrutiny for what they did to Iraq and America…
I mean the world trade center was bombed earliar by the fundimentalist militants, that is one of my best signs they did it again…and, why diverte to Iraq from Afghanistan, which was never fought correctly anyway? If they really were creating a conspiricy hit, they could have done it implicating Iraq instead of Afghanistan…in my opinion, these neo cons just took the incident and were extremly oportunistic to run actual American imperialism on Iraq, one of Americas more blatent example of its Imperialism
I am sorry to digress from the subject on this thread , I just wanted to clarify to you that I do have basic respect for a lot of your comments on racism, as I do with so many others I debate with here on American foreign policy
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Rudy, I don’t have a clue what your point is exactly but I do know that Biff can speak to his own comment which I have asked for clarification of.
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Legion:
You can look at this link: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Palestinian/Pages/Analysis_of_the_1988_Hamas_Charter.aspx
There is some question as to whether certain parts of the charter were annulled, but Hamas won’t overtly agree that it has been amended (I just saw an interview on CNN, where a Hamas rep. totally dodged this question). If they can’t answer this question, you can assume they do not consider any such annulments to be valid.
Anyway, money quote for those who don’t care to link:
“At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana,4 that “Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before.”
Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world.”
Here is the wikipedia site, which appears to be rather sanitized in terms of actual offending language: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Covenant
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Actually, Legion. I think the second link refers to the PLO charter. which may not be quite as inflammatory as the Hamas charter described above (though I believe they are similar in many respects–I can’t read the original arabic).
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@anon
“Anyone have any opinions on this? —-Dual citizenship/Israeli citizens in top U.S. government positions…..”
Yeah–IMO it’s highly treasonous–not the act of having dual citizenship itself, but having it while serving a high federal office (especially in security and defense) and simultaneously pledging loyalty to Israel. Ad minimum, it’s a clear conflict of interest.
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Israel Pulls Forces From Gaza as Cease-Fire Begins
Scene is Calm But Tense as Troops Being Kept on Call Nearby
By Nicholas Casey in Gaza City,
Adam Entous in Jerusalem and
Joshua Mitnick in Tel Aviv
Updated Aug. 5, 2014 12:25 p.m. ET
IsraelI military forces have withdrawn from the Gaza Strip as Israel and Hamas embarked on a 72-hour cease-fire. Photo: Getty Images.
Israel withdrew its military forces from the Gaza Strip early Tuesday, completing a 20-day ground operation in the Palestinian territory at the start of an already fragile three-day truce that officials hope will buy time for broader peace talks.
Many of Gaza’s 1.8 million residents began emerging from their homes after spending most of the past month hiding out. But the scene remained tense after the failure of previous truces and Israel made clear that the military operation could start up again any time.
A Palestinian woman sits on the remains of her destroyed house Tuesday after returning to Beit Hanoun town, which witnesses said was heavily hit by shelling and air strikes during the Israeli offensive. Reuters
The Israeli pullout was completed before the scheduled start of the cease-fire at 8 a.m., army spokesman Lt. Col. Peter Lerner said, though the 80,000 reservists called up to carry out the military operation against Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip, will stay on duty near the enclave. (See before-and-after photos of the destruction in Gaza.)
“The reservists are still around Gaza. We need them for flexibility,” the spokesman said, warning that Israeli would respond if attacked.
Gaza residents ventured into the streets. Horse carts and bicycles shared the swelling streets with cars. Along Gaza’s Mediterranean coastline, fishermen again cast their nets from the shore and a few boats guided into the surf.
However, as always, Israel knows that Hamas will break the truce and willingly sacrifice the lives of more Gazans. You have to wonder why the people of Gaza are so willing to let themselves be sacrificed by their psychotic Hamas leaders.
Hamas will never achieve its goal of destroying Israel. And Hamas will certainly never lift the people of Gaza out of poverty as long as destroying Israel is its chief objective.
The US and its allies bombed Nazi Germany into rubble. About 80 percent of German buildings were reduced to piles of junk during the second half of WWII. The relentless pounding completely destroyed the will of the Germans. They gave up. They surrendered. They begged for mercy.
From 1945 to 1952, the US reconstructed Germany, and the world became a better place. The Marshall Plan was a huge success for all.
Three days after the US dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, the leadership of Japan surrendered to the US unconditionally. And the world became a better place.
But even though the Gazans are as helpless as babies and their Hamas leaders are as inept and incompetent as the worst Islamic leaders always are, they haven’t begun to understand that Islam is their enemy.
Islam is a pathology that develops into failure-driven societies. A true mental illness.
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@ Biff
I usually can’t stand your comment, but I have to honestly admit that you have been engaging in good faith.
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Thank you, Sharina. It is a big step to acknowledge that someone you strongly disagree with may in fact be acting in good faith.
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@sb32199
“Hamas will never achieve its goal of destroying Israel.”
Where in the original Hamas charter or has a Hamas leader stated its “goal” or “chief objective” was “destroying Israel”? It’s just more of your bogus propaganda.
“However, as always, Israel knows that Hamas will break the truce and willingly sacrifice the lives of more Gazans. ”
Which gov’t broke the August 4 ceasefire? Israel.
“Islam is a pathology that develops into failure-driven societies. A true mental illness.”
So I guess Nazi Germany must have been an Islamic state too? And Yugoslavia and Ukraine?
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resw77:
Hamas Covenant 1988
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement
18 August 1988
In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah
“Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed.” (Al-Imran – verses 109-111).
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
The foregoing is the opening of the Hamas Charter.
It states the following in Article 15:
The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Duty:
Article Fifteen:
The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters.
You wrote:
So I guess Nazi Germany must have been an Islamic state too? And Yugoslavia and Ukraine?
If you want to compare and contrast Nazi Germany, Yugoslavia and Ukraine with the Gaza Strip, Hamas and Israel, we can. but the analysis serves no purpose.
In any case, Islam is a mental illness, and 1,400 years of Islamic backwardness is the proof. It seems lost on most people, including you, that Islam gained whatever it gained through conquest. Not through internally generated intelligence and effort.
The Islamic nations of the world are mostly miserable regions occupied by poor people. In the oil states, most of the money is in the hands of either a dictator or some crackpot “royal” family.
Nothing is invented or created in the Islamic world. That should be your first clue that a societal illness is the primary condition of muslims. Muhammad was a child-molesting schizophrenic, which means his thinking was driven by a huge chemical imbalance in his brain. Since he inveigled arabs into embracing his rants by compiling them into the Quran, billions of unfortunate and hapless people have suffered lifetimes of despair, self-loathing and misery.
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resw77 — from the Hamas Charter
D. Arab and Islamic Countries:
Article Twenty-Eight:
The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.
Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.
As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.
We should not forget to remind every Moslem that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that “Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women.”
Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.”
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BBC Wakes Up to Hamas’s Exaggerations, Warning ‘Caution Needed With Gaza Casualty Figures’
August 8, 2014
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/08/bbc-wakes-up-to-hamass-exaggerations-warning-caution-needed-with-gaza-casualty-figures/
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1. HAMAS DETONATES IDF DUD, KILLS ITALIAN AP REPORTER
by Ari Yashar
Hamas sources in Gaza report that a dud IDF missile exploded on Wednesday,
killing five including an Italian journalist, after Hamas terrorists clumsily
tried to dismantle the missile.
Hamas emergency services spokesperson Ashraf al-Qudra stated that in addition to the five dead, there are several more who are seriously wounded.
“A number of explosives experts were killed while dismantling a missile in Beit
Lahiya. Among them was a foreign journalist,” Hamas Interior Ministry
spokesperson Iyad al-Buzam told AFP.
The Italian government shortly thereafter named the dead journalist as Simone
Camilli, a cameraman for Associated Press. AP confirmed the 35-year-old Italian had worked with them since 2005, and that AP photographer Hatem Moussa was also badly wounded in the explosion.
“Simone Camilli’s death is a tragedy for his family and for the country. Once
more a reporter pays the price for a war that has lasted too many years,” said
Italian Foreign Minister Federica Mogherini.
Muayin al-Masri, a spokesperson for Kamal Adwan hospital, stated earlier that
the five dead included four Gaza residents and a foreign national. He added that five others were wounded, three of them in critical condition.
Camilli was reporting on the dismantling from the scene; his fixer was likewise
killed, and another local journalist working with him, apparently Moussa, was
badly wounded in the blast, according to an AFP correspondent in Gaza.
The IDF has not struck the Hamas terror enclave of Gaza since the current
72-hour ceasefire went into effect on Sunday at midnight, meaning the missile
would have been sitting in Gaza at least two days.
The Italian journalist’s death hints at a wanton disregard for human life by the
terrorist organization, given that in dismantling the missile casualties among
those not involved in the actual dismantling, such as journalists, could have
been avoided by distancing the public from the missile.
This fact may be unsurprising to many, given Hamas’s extensive and
well-documented usage of human shields, and abuse of foreign journalists.
Illustrating the danger Hamas places foreign journalists in, an Indian TV crew
last week captured footage of how Hamas planted a rocket launchpad adjacent to their hotel, “bang in the middle of what is a residential area full of hotels
and apartment buildings.”
The rockets were launched hours later after the terrorists had cleared the area,
in a clear strategy to tempt the IDF to conduct an airstrike response to take
out the launcher and in the process kill civilians, even foreign journalists, so
as to inflate casualty figures.
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^^^ Sb’s article comes from Arutz Sheva, a right-wing, neo-Zionist Israeli radio station.
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abagond writes:
Sb’s article comes from Arutz Sheva, a right-wing, neo-Zionist Israeli radio station.
Does the source of the article invalidate its journalistic accuracy?
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@ abagond
Thanks for pointing that out.
No doubt they make even-handed reports about ethnic cleansing and colonisation….
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@sb32199
Again, I’ll ask, “Where in the original Hamas charter or has a Hamas leader stated its “goal” or “chief objective” was “destroying Israel”?”
What you cut and pasted says nothing of the sort.
“If you want to compare and contrast Nazi Germany, Yugoslavia and Ukraine with the Gaza Strip, Hamas and Israel, we can. but the analysis serves no purpose.”
They are failed states led by self-proclaimed Christians. It doesn’t fit your bill that only Islamic states like Palestine are failures.
“In any case, Islam is a mental illness, and 1,400 years of Islamic backwardness is the proof. It seems lost on most people, including you, that Islam gained whatever it gained through conquest.”
One can easily say Christianity is a mental illness, with it’s crazy notions about a woman made from a man’s rib to getting killed for working on the sabbath. And what constitutes “backwardness” is highly subjective in nature and does not serve as proof of anything.
Whatever Islam gained through conquest can be said about Christianity too, and the West for that matter. Each and every Western European nation was conquered by foreign Christian emperors, and many are still ruled by Christians with foreign heritage, like the UK for instance.
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Abagond I am truly disappointed in you. I have been following your blog for several years and I am a patriotic person for Israel. I can not believe you would support Palestine, a country that would call us “abeed” as well as where women have no rights and plus the photos are all fake. No kids are dead, they are simply posing for the camera. Trust me, I know everything. I am here.
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Are you serious? Most media outlets are supporting Palestine! I am boycotting your blog. I am so done with your biased writings and Liberal beliefs and theology
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@ BetaIsrael
If you have not yet begun your boycott, you can read my reply:
1. This is a blog. Blogs are opinionated. It is like a requirement.
2. Most US news outlets are sickening bootlickers when it comes to Israel. It is like they turn off their brain when it comes to Israel:
3. If the United Nations says Israel is killing Palestinian children, then I believe it. Israel and the US have reasons to lie about such crimes (and Al Jazeera reason to play them up), but the UN does not.
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@ Abagond
I am an Israeli citizen I understand the situation in my country! The United Nations is an anti-Semitic organization, and so is Al Jazeera. Don’t believe me? Look it up. Almost all Jews around the world know that. Do you understand that I am not a child, and I understand what is going on much better than you do. I am also entitled to my own opinion, but it sickens me to see people who would be given 0 rights in Palestine support them. You are aware of this, I hope.
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