The white inventor argument says that we know white people are better than everyone else because of all their wonderful inventions.
The argument has three main uses:
- To prove that whites are better – and the world better off despite whatever racism they may have practised.
- To change the subject. It is a great way to derail any argument about white racism: blacks hate this argument and will jump on it, quickly forgetting whatever they were talking about before. This is why trolls love this argument.
- To point out that x would not even be possible without white people. For example, when arguing about how racist a film is, whites will sometimes try to end the argument by pointing out that it was whites who invented film in the first place!
What is wrong with this argument:
- Doing something good does not excuse doing something bad. More particularly, inventing x does not give you or anyone else the right to misuse x. The invention of film, for example, does not excuse using it to push stereotypes about blacks.
- If inventions “prove” one part of mankind is better than all the rest, then the Chinese and Egyptians have a way better claim than whites.
When people point out the bad that whites have done, whites are quick to point out how other people have done it too, how it is “natural”. Like with the slave trade they quickly point out that Africans and Arabs did it too. Historical Context suddenly matters. But when it comes to the good things, like inventions, white people act like they are the only ones. It is no longer so “natural” anymore. Historical Context goes out the window.
Yet white people would be nowhere without four Chinese inventions: gunpowder, the compass, paper and the printing press. Their rise to world power was built on these.
In fact, before 1500 there were very few white inventions but plenty of Chinese and Egyptian ones.
The Egyptians invented civilization itself along with stuff like writing, calendars, irrigation and so on. They made huge pyramids that no has been able to match since. Egypt was the most advanced part of the world for over 2,000 years – twice as long as even China, much less the West.
True, most important inventions of the past few hundred years were made by white people. But that is only because they have been on top during that time. If it was because white people are born with more brains, then white people would have been on top all throughout history – not just a fifth of it.
If you assume that the largest city will tend to be in the most advanced part of world, then you can say how many years different people have been on top:
- 2072 Egyptian
- 974 Chinese
- 364 Roman
- 360 Sumerian/Babylonian
- 359 Persian
- 285 Greek
- 281 Arab
- 140 Anglo
Anglo power – British and American – is fresh in our minds, but it is merely the latest chapter in the book of history. And that is the Historical Context that this argument forgets.
See also:
- Largest cities through history
- human history: the last 6,000 years
- How to argue like a white racist
- Mighty Whitey – where would people of colour be without those good, kind white people?
- white people
- white gaze – which puts whites at the centre of history, even during their dark ages!
- bits of history
Oh I hate the white inventor argument soooo much! I remember I was on a forum and someone started saying how black history month is bad and there should also be a white history month to honour all the great things white people do because they invented so much and if it wasn’t for them a whole lot of other races would be so lost.
Now that is three kinds of stupidity that made me want to reach into the computer screen and shake the hell out of the person who wrote it.
Anyway this was a great post Abagond.
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People should realize that that this ‘white inventor’ argument has underlying currents. The point of making these specious remarks is not just to throw the racialized person off kilter. It is to show that your group is inherently inferior and incapable of inventing anything. If it wasn’t for their benevolence racialized people would be worse off in predominantly white societies. By imputing such positive attributes to a group, conversely, they imputing negative attributes to the racialized groups such as; blacks commit an inordinate amount of crime. Therefore by group affiliation are criminals by nature. They appropriate the accomplishments of a few and by implication state that it is because they are white that these few were able to accomplish these inventions. In this same way they use stereotypes about racialized people to imply negative behaviours. Funny how they don’t take credit for people like Stalin and Hitler these were anomalies.
There’s an old saying and I paraphrase; ‘Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it’.
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@Herneith:
You’ve expressed this far more eloquently than I ever could have. As always…excellent post!
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Historical context is everything. If you look at the Dark Age and Medieval times in European history, many innovators were given a hard time, Galileo for example. If Europeans as a whole were such innovators, they would have embraced these innovative people instead of persecuting them. This is why it is particularly enervating when they use these tactics in an argument on race, given what I know of European history. It was when they began to notice the benefits of these inventions that they began to appreciate the innovators. They were no longer seen as being in league with the devil or being witches. The leap in logic occurs when they indirectly take credit for these inventions by virtue of being white, whereas before this same people were reviled.
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Herneith said:
“They appropriate the accomplishments of a few and by implication state that it is because they are white that these few were able to accomplish these inventions. In this same way they use stereotypes about racialized people to imply negative behaviours. Funny how they don’t take credit for people like Stalin and Hitler these were anomalies.”
Excellent point! The crime argument seems to be brought up in the same circumstances by the same sort of people as the white inventor argument. And, you are right, it is the same sort of fallacy: all whites get credit for a few inventors just as all blacks are discredited by a few rapists and killers.
Or: blacks get blamed for the mess in Zimbabwe – as was done the other day on this blog – while whites are not blamed for the mess on Wall Street, which has affected the whole world.
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@ herneith,
Forget historical context, the whole white inventor argument is based on a heck of a lot of wrong info, pure ignorance and a presumption that white people created everything.
The next time one of those ‘people’ says anything about the Internet, simply mention the name Philip Emagwali
Philip Emagali is a Nigerian and the father of Super computers.
http://www.time.com/time/2007/blackhistmth/bios/04.html
Without him, computers would not talk to each other the way they do and the internet as we know it would not exist.
People in the west make me laugh, their teeth were rotting in their mouth before they came across us and wondered what in the world we were doing chewing these sticks and using them to clean our teeth?. Till today, they try to duplicate it and can’t.
Seriously, i could dispute and tear down pretty much most of their spurious claims, but who has time for that nonsense. These people are not open to debate and no matter how wrong they are they don’ care. They just cut and paste and keep moving.
It is up to us individual black people to ensure that we know the part we played in building and making things.
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In Charles Murray’s Human Accomplishment, which measures the contribution of various cultures to science and art empirically. A full 97 percent of significant scientific figures between 800BC and 1950 have come from the West. Not a single non-Western figure is included in this glorious parade. The list of central events in the history of technology shows us that the equipment of modern life is almost wholly Western in origin as well. In fact, between the 11th century and 1950, all major technological innovations, from the watch to the steam engine to the computer, came from Europe and the United States.
Murray’s book reveals in startling clarity how high the achievements of whites tower over those of the other races of man. Certainly, other races played a role, but enlightened, modern, scientifically and technologically advanced societies are almost entirely the creation of whites. Anyone who can read Murray’s book without concluding that whites are a race with special gifts that set them apart from the rest of mankind simply isn’t being reasonable.
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@White Man:
Igor is that you? lol!
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White Man appears to be cutting and pasting from Stormfront. Here is the full text:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=351682
It even mentions the Arab slave trade and Mugabe!
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White Man:
Your comment was plagiarized, but for once it is on-topic (most plagiarized comments are not) and it is a beautiful example of what I am talking about. Thank you.
Charles Murray is just plain wrong even within his carefully chosen set of dates (which avoids most Chinese and Egyptian advances).
For example, both the compass and movable type were invented in the 11th century in China.
Paper did not reach Europe – from China!! – till the 12th century, though it was invented well before his 11th century cut-off.
Western science would be next to impossible without the number 0 – an invention from India. Or without the idea of a rule-based, law-giving universal Creator – an idea from the Middle East.
Murray reads history from a secular Western point of view and so, surprise, finds the secular West at its centre, saving the day. Many of the accomplishments he sees as important were not seen that way till the rise of science and industry in the 1800s. Read the Bible: its take on history is a bit different.
“whites are a race with special gifts that set them apart from the rest of mankind”
If that were true whites would be the most advanced people on earth all throughout history, not just for carefully selected parts of it.
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Soul said:
“These people are not open to debate and no matter how wrong they are they don’ care. They just cut and paste and keep moving.”
I am afraid you are right.
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Interestingly enough, I remember having this conversation earlier today with my mother. It amazes me how many Americans fail to realize that black Americans contributed greatly to some of these “inventions” that we use today, and that a black person laid out the plans for what is now known Washington D.C. When I was in grad school doing research for my thesis, I came across an interesting book in the library. Unfortunately, I can’t remember the title off the top of my head, but I do remember that it was about how so-called scholars kept out the contributions of blacks and Jews in Ancient Greece because of racism and anti-semitism.
Oh, and another thing that really gets under my skin is how a small group of people are willing to believe that “space aliens” helped the Egyptians and the Mayans to build their great monuments. No one says this about the Romans. I intepret this as saying, “there is no way that these inferiors could have done this on their own.”
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Herneith Says:
Historical context is everything. If you look at the Dark Age and Medieval times in European history, many innovators were given a hard time, Galileo for example. If Europeans as a whole were such innovators, they would have embraced these innovative people instead of persecuting them.
Please don’t believe in that enlightment age myth! The dark ages were called the dark ages because not much about was known.
There were lots of advances in technology during the 6th – 11th centuries.
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@White Man
Can’t you form your own opinons without copy and pasting something from a site develop some individuality.
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Logic, the systematic study of human reasoning, is a Greek invention.
The Greeks also invented the mathematical proof, upon which the whole of mathematics is founded.
These two Greek inventions gave rise to the scientific method in the European Middle Ages and Enlightenment. It was Europeans who created the very concept of science: they were the first to clearly articulate the method of hypothesis and experiment and to grasp that the world had a structure that was comprehensible by mathematics.
It was Europeans who first mathematically formalized the idea of probability, resulting in the science of statistics. In the arts,
Europeans were responsible for the invention of artistic realism. It was the Greeks who first thought of depicting the human form as it actually appeared rather than according to stylized conventions, and Europeans of the Renaissance and Enlightenment first created the realist novel.
Perspective, which adds a third dimension to painting, was a creation of the European Middle Ages.
Musical polyphony, or music that has two or more melodic lines, is another; before this invention, music consisted simply of a single melody without harmony.
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White Man Says:
Logic, the systematic study of human reasoning, is a Greek invention.
That’s wrong
White Man Says:
The Greeks also invented the mathematical proof, upon which the whole of mathematics is founded.
Nope, The chinese did!
White Man Says:
It was Europeans who created the very concept of science: they were the first to clearly articulate the method of hypothesis and experiment and to grasp that the world had a structure that was comprehensible by mathematics.
Yeah! Keep dreaming! The Chinese, Egyptians and Persians were way before!
White Man Says:
It was Europeans who first mathematically formalized the idea of probability, resulting in the science of statistics.
Wrong again!
White Man Says:
Musical polyphony, or music that has two or more melodic lines, is another; before this invention, music consisted simply of a single melody without harmony.
Man, you are stupid!
Nice try troll, but no cigar!
Wait a minute even this was plagarised! My god you are stupid!
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@Aiyo:
@White Man
Can’t you form your own opinons without copy and pasting something from a site develop some individuality.
This would require some actual thought on his part. 😀
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You didn’t even read murray’s book. He does not look at this from a western point of view. Murray ranks the greats in several fields of human accomplishment from 800 BC to 1950. In each field Murray identifies a number of sources providing information about the leading figures in the field. The rankings are made from information in these sources. He categories of human accomplishment where significant figures are ranked in the book are as follows: Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Earth Sciences, Physics, Mathematics, Medicine, Technology, Combined Sciences, Chinese Philosophy, Indian Philosophy, Western Philosophy, Western Music, Chinese Painting, Japanese Art, Western Art, Arabic Literature, Chinese Literature, Indian Literature, Japanese Literature, and Western Literature. The omission of several relative categories, including a broader Chinese art category or an Indian art category, are due to a lack of identifiable figures as most of the work is anonymous.
Trains, planes, cars, rockets, telescopes, tires, telephones, radios, television, electricity, atomic energy, computers, and fax machines, Movies are white inventions. This is not to discredit the many contributions coming from non-whites, but fact is fact. Our most important and consequential inventions have come almost exclusively from white males. Now it is certainly true that China did lead the world in technology and commercial inventiveness about 1,000 years ago. They had great coal-mining operations, gunpowder, six-masted sailing ships, and intense commercial enterprise. But it all collapsed because the elites, the long-nailed Mandarins, centralized control–1,000 years before Mao–and crushed the expansion and inventions. Curse me, or all white males, if you wish, that changes nothing. But if you call me a liar, you’ll have to come up with the proof that I’m wrong. Remember, I didn’t say there were no important contributions by non-whites; I said the overwhelming majority.
The anti-white movements hate this but it’s true.
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It’s almost impossible to have a rational discussion about this because as the post points out racists do not discuss this in good faith.
That said though there is something there.
Have people read “Carnage and Culture” by Victor Davis Hanson or “Guns, Germs and Steel” by Jared Diamond? Both authors are quite far apart from each other politically but both strongly reject racial determinist explanations for European technological or military accomplishments.
The challenge is to understand (despite the accomplishments of ancient Egyptians or Chinese) is what happened since. How did a small continent that was virtually depopulated as late as the 12th-13th century with plague and wars come to dominate the world.
Why did the Aztec and Incas not use the wheel or iron? Why was writing not more widely used among West African societies? Why were aborigines unable to provide effective resistance to the European invasion?
Although these are interesting questions in some respect the question is really what are we doing to ensure things like that don’t happen again.
I think Diamond’s book is excellent, Hanson’s less so. I think environment and a certain amount of randomness, explains what we see today.
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Vindicator, you reduce your argument by calling me names and you offer no evidence to your argument. I can back up what I’m saying. The development of mathematical proof is primarily the product of early Greek civilization. Thales (624–546 BCE) proved some theorems in geometry. Eudoxus (408–355 BCE) and Theaetetus (417–369 BCE) formulated theorems but did not prove them. Aristotle (384–322 BCE) said definitions should describe the concept being defined in terms of other concepts already known
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@White Man
I don’t reason with trolls. Trolls are unreasonable!
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@White Man:
AGAIN with the cutting and pasting. lol!
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I wonder if “White Man” is going to come back! Trolls eh, how sad!
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Another great description of a common white derailment tactic! Thank you Abagond, a very valuable post. I’m enjoying the discussion this post has provoked too, including the white-supremacist desperation. I think you struck a nerve!
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@Herneinth:
I find it interesting that many of the Enlightenment scientists were Hermeticists and were attempting, in their own minds, to rediscover the eternal truths already known but buried within the mysteries of ancient Egypt. Newton, for example, needed an accurate measurement of the circumference of the world for his theory of gravitation. He first turned to Hellenistic mathematician and astronomer Eratosthenes and his followers, but those numbers didn’t fit his theory. Newton’s next assumption was that althought Eratosthenes had lived in Egypt he had failed to preserve the ancient measurements accurately. Newton then turned to measurements of the Great Pyrimid obtained by an English contemporary John Graves who published figures that were widely accepted and presumed to enshrine perfect units of length, area, and volume as well as geometric proportions such as pi and ‘the golden mean’. Ultimately, even though Graves’ measurements were a closer fit than Eratosthenes’ they weren’t perfect but the larger point is that during the Enlightenment the common culture was built on the belief that their scientific enterprise was based on rediscovering ancient African mysteries.
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White Man:
No, I did not read Murray’s book. I am going by your comments and bits of the Stomfront article that you are plagiarizing.
I am glad you can admit that the Chinese are capable of something!
Murray’s date of 800 BC cuts off the Egyptians and some of the Babylonians. While the Greeks did make important contributions of their own, much of early Greek science and mathematics came from those two places. They seem to appear out of the blue in Greece because Greek literature is better preserved. From my post on Thales:
“Although to the Greeks he seems to have made great discoveries about the sun, the moon and the stars, it is likely that he “discovered” most of them not in the skies but in talking to the priests of Egypt, who even then had records going back thousands of years.”
More here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/11/05/thales/
Thales travelled widely. He visited the older civilizations and LISTENED TO THEM and LEARNED FROM THEM. A degree of humility that most whites these days do not seem to possess.
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Aiyo said at #14:
@White Man
Can’t you form your own opinons without copy and pasting something from a site develop some individuality.
An hour later #15 comes in: more cutting and pasting from White Man!
It is profoundly ironic that White Man is arguing that white people have such original, gifted minds and yet he himself is CUTTING AND PASTING!!!!
Does it get any better than this?
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White Man pasted:
“Now it is certainly true that China did lead the world in technology and commercial inventiveness about 1,000 years ago. They had great coal-mining operations, gunpowder, six-masted sailing ships, and intense commercial enterprise. But it all collapsed because the elites, the long-nailed Mandarins, centralized control–1,000 years before Mao–and crushed the expansion and inventions.”
Plagiarized from “White Male Inventons”, http://www.dadi.org/ms_dwm.htm
Since the prose was less formal, I thought you had written that yourself! Oh well.
The thing about the white inventor argument is that it only works during certain periods of history, like this one.
China collapsed – we know how it ended. But do you seriously think the West will never collapse? All these wonderful white male inventions, after all, are destroying the earth. How will they be seen in 2100 or 2200?
In 1300 you could have made the Chinese inventor argument.
In 1000 BC you could have made the Egyptian inventor argument.
The truth is, invention is a COMMON human gift not limited by colour. But at any point in history most inventions will come from one part of the world because it is the most advanced at that time.
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abagond Says:
Murray’s date of 800 BC cuts off the Egyptians and some of the Babylonians. Much of early Greek science and mathematics came from those two places. They seem to appear out of the blue in Greece because Greek literature is better preserved.
Don’t forget the Chinese. They discovered Pythagorus’ theroum and Trigonometry about 500 years before the classical greeks!
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I think part of what underlies the emotion of this argument – at least it does for me – is the experience of seeing white people in day-to-day life claim credit and get rewarded for something that a person of colour did or thought of first.
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I’m surprised at all of you…
Someone please point out the irony of ‘that troll’ including the greeks as ‘white’.
These people always include ‘others’ as white when it convenient for them. don’t they also at some points discount Greeks as non white and closer to meditteranean?. I mean the greeks are olive skinned.
Next they’d be claiming the Turks as white and damn it even the Algerians in the heart of Africa will be white to explain their prowess at horse riding.
Oh and it’s also ironic that they rarely just call Egyptians Africans. (I mean Egypt is and has always been in AFRICA hasn’t it?).
Anyway, the troll bores me, unoriginal, illogical and just plain FAIL.. but I like reading you guys responses .
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I can play the same trick as Murray:
between the 16th century and 1850, 97% of all major shipments of slaves, from the Gambia to the Congo to Angola, departed Africa for the Americas.
Anyone who can read Abagond’s book without concluding that whites are a race with a special gift for racism that set them apart from the rest of mankind simply isn’t being reasonable.
But then people would quickly point out that the Arabs and Africans traded and kept slaves too.
Why are we so quick to point out Arab slave traders but not Chinese inventors?
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Please don’t believe in that enlightment age myth! The dark ages were called the dark ages because not much about was known.
There were lots of advances in technology during the 6th – 11th centuries.
I don’t, hence my example of Galileo being persecuted for his theories.
Remember, I didn’t say there were no important contributions by non-whites; I said the overwhelming majority.
The anti-white movements hate this but it’s true.
Okay Jack er, I mean Whiteman, tell me about inventions by non-whites that you neglected to mention. And while you are at it ‘enlighten’ us with your cut and paste knowledge. Again you are attempting to take credit for what a few have accomplished. A sorry way to argue.
Seriously, i could dispute and tear down pretty much most of their spurious claims, but who has time for that nonsense. These people are not open to debate and no matter how wrong they are they don’ care. They just cut and paste and keep moving.
You are absolutely right! Debating with such people is like farting in a windstorm! They have their preconceived notions in place and have no intentions of listening to what you have to say. The main focus of their debate is not to learn or impart information but to reinforce their sense of superiority through someone else’s accomplishments. The sorry fact is that they are riding on a few coattails and appropriating these accomplishments as if they are their own. They do not, or don’t want to acknowledge this.
the larger point is that during the Enlightenment the common culture was built on the belief that their scientific enterprise was based on rediscovering ancient African mysteries.
Exactly! This is where the Greeks got most of their incipient knowledge if not most of it!
Thanks for the link on Phillip Emagali! It is up to us individual black people to ensure that we know the part we played in building and making things. You got that right! We have to seek out this information ourselves as it is not taught in schools. I think this is intentional.
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ROFL! Another great post, Abagond. Yes, this drives me so absolutely crazy.
I’ve actually always been fascinated by the Middle East. Ever since I saw the Ishtar Gate of Babylon in Berlin on the Museums Insel. That left an indelible impression on me.
The vast majority of white people during that “glorious age” were just peasants. Just like the vast majority of people everywhere.
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In Charles Murray’s Human Accomplishment, which measures the contribution of various cultures to science and art empirically.
You don’t think the man who co wrote the Bell Curve wouldn’t have a biased opinion? Seriously? How silly.
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White Man,
Quit plagiarizing. You’ve already been busted once.
Logic, the systematic study of human reasoning, is a Greek invention.
The Greeks also invented the mathematical proof, upon which the whole of mathematics is founded.
These two Greek inventions gave rise to the scientific method in the European Middle Ages and Enlightenment. It was Europeans who created the very concept of science: they were the first to clearly articulate the method of hypothesis and experiment and to grasp that the world had a structure that was comprehensible by mathematics.
It was Europeans who first mathematically formalized the idea of probability, resulting in the science of statistics. In the arts,
Europeans were responsible for the invention of artistic realism. It was the Greeks who first thought of depicting the human form as it actually appeared rather than according to stylized conventions, and Europeans of the Renaissance and Enlightenment first created the realist novel.
Perspective, which adds a third dimension to painting, was a creation of the European Middle Ages.
Musical polyphony, or music that has two or more melodic lines, is another; before this invention, music consisted simply of a single melody without harmony.
You can find the text here:
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2006/12/the_inverted_wo.php
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It’s funny, and pathetically sad, that no matter how many times these jokers get busted for swiping other peoples words and plopping them here…they still continue to do it as it if it’s nothing.
so ridiculous.
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@Abagond
An hour later #15 comes in: more cutting and pasting from White Man!
It is profoundly ironic that White Man is arguing that white people have such original, gifted minds and yet he himself is CUTTING AND PASTING!!!!
Does it get any better than this?
I know the irony is amazing
way to show originality White Man.
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well he is showing he knows how to use the cut and paste function of his “white invention” the computer. lol 😉
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I’m a little late to this party but… ugh. I, too, hate this argument. As someone who LOVES to learn about ancient civilizations, I know full well that white europeans were not the first to discover or invent most things we see today. Everything we have today is the product of thousands of years of science and research, trial and error, from civilizations all over the globe. All inventions are HUMAN discoveries. Every people on the planet helped shape our world into what it is today.
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Thanks Abagond for this post.
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All the black people TRYING TO DENY THAT WHITE’S MADE THE MOST CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE WORLD ARE FUNNY. All you can do is say that it’s not true, but the fact is that we have the evidence to back it up. you can spin anyway you want but you know what I’m saying is true. That’s why you can’t come up with any evidence that I’m wrong.
Everything evrybody owns today was created by a white man. Name another group of people that can produce these names: Euler, Newton, Leibniz, Descartes, Galileo, Euclid, Gauss, Fermat, Cantor, Pascal, Picasso, Darwin, and Edison, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Aristotle, Marie Curie, Einstein, Pasteur, Leonardo Da Vinci,
Afrocentric historical research is grounded in identity politics and myth rather than scholarship. Afrocentrism’s prime goal was to encourage black nationalism and ethnic pride and to teacj black kids fairy tales.
Mary Lefkowitz, Professor Emerita of Classical Studies at Wellesley College in Massachusetts, has rejected black claims about Egyptian contributions to Greek civilization as being faulty scholarship. She contends that ancient Egyptian texts show little similarity to Greek philosophy. Lefkowitz has criticized Afrocentrism as “an excuse to teach myth as history
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Philip Emeagwali did work in supercomputing in the eighties, making improvements to the “Connection Machine” parallel supercomputer design. But supercomputing and the Internet are very different areas. And Emeagwali did not contribute to even one of the hundreds of Internet standards, or RFCs (Requests For Comments), that were created in the early decades of the Internet— an open process that anyone could participate in. His supercomputing reseach
was completely unrelated to the Internet.
Unfortunately, Emeagwali has promoted himself as a “father of the Internet.” This is based on Emeagwali’s claim that “the Supercomputer is the father of the Internet,” because both are networks of computers working together.
The biggest problem with this is that Emeagwali did his work in the late eighties, and the core standards for communication
on the Internet already existed by then. Yes, further improvements to the Internet have certainly been made since then— but Emeagwali did not make them. His research simply wasn’t relevant to the Internet’s growth.
A secondary problem is that Emeagwali’s contributions to supercomputing just weren’t all that significant. He didn’t invent the Connection Machine, and he didn’t build the fastest supercomputer constructed in the year in which he won the Gordon Bell Prize— not even the fastest based on the Connection Machine. His machine was only the second fastest. Normally, the prize was given out both to the fastest overall supercomputer and to the most cost-effective. In that year, however, the fastest computer was built by a team at Mobil… and that computer was also the most cost-effective. The judges decided not to award both prizes to the same computer. So Emeagwali won for his second-place entry.
I won’t mince words here: Emeagwali has no credibility as a “father of the Internet,” and his ongoing public claims to that effect don’t do him any credit. They only serve to damage the credibility of those groups and individuals who take his claims seriously.
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“is the experience of seeing white people in day-to-day life claim credit and get rewarded for something that a person of colour did or thought of first.” Like what? Give me 10 examples.
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@White Man:
You didn’t cut and copy as much this time except for the last paragraph. lol!
@Hazida:
I suspect you may be White Man as well since you cut and copied everything.
Here’s proof.
http://www.boutell.com/newfaq/history/emeagwali.html
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Leigh:
Good call. Both Hazida and White Man are coming from the same Internet address, so Hazida is most likely a White Man sock puppet.
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@abagond:
White Man/Hazida needs to give it up already. Seriously…he’s a joke.
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White Man said:
“Everything evrybody owns today was created by a white man. Name another group of people that can produce these names: Euler, Newton, Leibniz, Descartes, Galileo, Euclid, Gauss, Fermat, Cantor, Pascal, Picasso, Darwin, and Edison, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Aristotle, Marie Curie, Einstein, Pasteur, Leonardo Da Vinci,”
Aside from Aristotle all those people were born since 1400, during the last 10% of human history.
The West is currently on top, so nearly all the latest inventions are going to be Western. That is not surprising. I never disputed that. But it says nothing about white people having any sort of “special gift” because if they did, they would have been on top for thousands of years, not just hundreds. This is the point you never address and is the main point of my post.
Without looking it up, can you name any Chinese poets? Can you name any of their poems? Why or why not?
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White Man said:
“Afrocentric historical research is grounded in identity politics and myth rather than scholarship. Afrocentrism’s prime goal was to encourage black nationalism and ethnic pride and to teacj black kids fairy tales.”
Change a few words:
“Eurocentric historical research is grounded in identity politics and myth rather than scholarship. Eurocentrism’s prime goal was to encourage white nationalism and ethnic pride and to teach white kids fairy tales.”
That is not all that far from what passes for history in American public schools.
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Why don’t you just come out and say it White Man… Whites created the planet Earth and every planet in our solar system. sheesh.
LMAO 😀
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Great catch Leigh. Beat him at his own game 🙂
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Hazida spelled backwards is Adizah. Don’t ask me why i put that here. haha. time for me to go to bed. 🙂
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The West is currently on top, so nearly all the latest inventions are going to be Western. That is not surprising. I never disputed that. But it says nothing about white people having any sort of “special gift” because if they did, they would have been on top for thousands of years, not just hundreds. This is the point you never address and is the main point of my post.
If white people had ‘special gifts’, all of them would be inventors or innovators which they are not. Individuals invent, not groups. My refutation of White man’s premise that whites have special gifts, more so than any racialized people,s is the fact that you are imputing the talents of a few, to whites in general.
“Eurocentric historical research is grounded in identity politics and myth rather than scholarship. Eurocentrism’s prime goal was to encourage white nationalism and ethnic pride and to teach white kids fairy tales.”
That is not all that far from what passes for history in American public schools.
This is exactly it! Most of the ‘scholarship’ comes from a eurocentric point of view. Starting in the 19th century with colonialism. Colonialism had to be justified, and writing ancient history from a eurocentric view was one of the ways to accomplish this. When someone writes something to the contrary, from an afrocentric point of view for example, high cockalorum ensues. ‘Scholars’ write tomes to refute this. Invert the wording as Abagond does and the same arguments could be made for afro centrism! Most modern day scholars agree that the Ancient Egyptians were a homogenous African group, not Caucasians who came from the north to colonize Egypt because the indigenous blacks were incapable of creating such a civilization. However, with that being said, many manage to get around calling them ‘black’. It is pitiful that most black people have to seek out knowledge of their own history as it is not taught in schools. To have so-called ‘scholars’ constantly try to refute this adds insult to injury. As Martin Bernal says, ‘King Tut would probably been denied a cup of coffee at the local diner had he lived in Birmingham in the 1950s'(paraphrased).
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@ Herneith
LoL at King Tut would be denied a cup of coffee. I think one thing that people don’t get that this term “black” is fairly new as in back in the day african people did not call them selves black and they did not call themselves african or by their country’s name but by their ethnic tribe.
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Oh, and another thing that really gets under my skin is how a small group of people are willing to believe that “space aliens” helped the Egyptians and the Mayans to build their great monuments. No one says this about the Romans. I intepret this as saying, “there is no way that these inferiors could have done this on their own.”
This is what you do when someone gives this argument or makes such a statement. Make sure your bladder is empty as you may p*** yourself at their reaction. Let them go into impassioned details about the aliens building these monuments. Look as if you are enraptured in regards to what they are saying. When they stop babbling and elicit your response, tell them this; “I agree with you wholeheartedly, I get it. “You are from Mars, and I am from Uranus!”. Make sure you have a serious look on your face whilst saying this. Walk away. Laugh at their response out of sight if you can. This accomplishes two things; it shows the absurdity of this argument and the seriousness for which you take it, and the fact that you will not engage them in their lunacy. With irrefutable evidence showing these civilizations as non-white, they are grasping at straws to explain away these accomplishments. They are sending you the same arguments as White Man is, you are inferior, even though this particular argument is in the form of inane babbling’s. This is another type of argument that is employed although it’s not as popular as the others mentioned. I’ve employed this method and it was very effective and hilarious to boot. The look on their face and the reaction this elicits is priceless.
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whites have to feel special i mean THEY HAVE TO. when they wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and see all that blandness they feel SOMETHING GOOD HAS TO COME OUT OF BEING WHITE. they question why are they so ugly. so they HAVE to tell themselves that they invented everything. white bland skin HAS to mean something. if white people woke up and nobody paid attention to them, if they felt they were just regular folks like everybody else on earth they would all commit suicide.
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Thanks Vindicator
I was about to comment on that people get Latino mixed up and think Taino or metizo are the only latinos
But yeah Picasso is Spanish as in from Spain which is in Europe
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Yes I get tired of the invention argument and the fact that Africa had “no form of writing”
I will not deny whites their inventions. I just find it funny how a shelf stocker at Dollar Store feels comfortable taking credit such things. During the times of some of the old art and science the majority of European society couldn’t read and could barely survive. Yet almost every white who wants to use the invention argument wants to take credit.
Judging a society by its art and invention is a European concept done through European based measurements. How can someone fairly judge something they don’t understand using their standards?
It’s sad that such an inventive people thus in turn used their “genius” to measure others on their scale and deem them inferior, or not worthy of the natural resources present where they lived. Colonizers actually felt the right to pillage native populations because they felt they were not making proper use of natural resources.
However all peoples are creative and will invent the things that they need to survive. If you live in a near perfect paradise the need for certain inventions is not needed and what was invented was passed on as knowledge and ways of doing things. These however would not be seen as valid. Just simply as folksy knowledge.
Europe followed a course obsessed with expansion and driven by greed. Motives drive inventions.
Besides if we had invented more “valid” things would that relieve the world or racism? I have yet heard anyone say that they respected me as a black woman because a black paved the way for the modern day computer.
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Actually your dates are a bit shabby with respect as to how long whites have been in charge.
First of all greece and rome are european and are considered “white” so according to your time line and adds an extra 700 years to our rule and reign, and you so quickly forget that between the years of 0-2010 it is the white culture, not just “anglos” but french, german, russian, spanish (yes spanish are white, not latino, most latinos are a mix of spanish and native american and are from latin america, hence LATINo, so mexico and below are not included in whiteness but spain is), and portugese that have ruled the world.
Rome ruled from 150 b.c. times till 400 a.d. Even after the fall of rome europeans were still the dominate force of the world. The printing press was invented in the 1400’s and the exploration of the world and conquest by europeans started in the 1400’s and continued till modern times. French and germans divided up Europe and africa. Russians dominated asia and china. Egypt and americas were ruled by the british and spanish all over the world.
But even with your dates, during the last 140 years of “our rule” we have made more advancements in tech and sci then the rest of the 6000 years of writeen history combined. Sure the chinese may have invented gun powder and writing and the arabs invented algebra but its the whites who figured out how to use it.
And to talk about hitler and stalin as the whites we refuse to take credit for, well my friends that are more then enough evil dictators of every color to go around for every culture. Currently africa, the middle east, and asia are ruled by some of the most ruthless war mongering murderers in existance. Thousands if not millions die daily in those places.
And people talk about all the horrible things whites do like slavery, well once again, every culture and color of people in the world have practiced slavery AND it is the blacks own people who sold them to us in the first place.
But anyways, as a whole we have done more for society then any other and if we hadn’t you would all still live like savages in africa or the middle east killing each other in tribes. As a whole we have been on the top the longest (the last 2000+ years and then some) and in recent years have done more then the rest of you combined over all of history. Either way we win. So just be grateful and say thank you to your local white person once in a while.
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I count the Anglos, Greeks and Romans as white. Add their numbers and it comes to less than 800 years or a sixth of all history.
The Europeans did not clearly pass China or even the Arabs till the 1700s.
The latest inventions tend to seem to be the greatest. Since we live in a period where whites are on top, most inventions will be coming from them. That does not prove that whites are better – just that we live in a period of history where they are on top.
If whites were truly better than everyone else, then they would be on top all the time or almost all the time. But they are not. Instead the lead is constantly changing hands.
Also keep in mind that there are few inventions that are “purely” white. Take this comment for example. It depends on the Internet and computers – white inventions. But it also depends on the alphabet, a Phoenician invention, and the idea of writing itself, which in the West comes from Egypt.
Computers themselves would be next to impossible if all we had were “white” Roman numerals. Instead we use a different numerical system – a “brown” one from the Arabs.
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it is true that some whites use the inventor argument to dodge racism. but it doesn’t deny that the white invention idea is true. ok so the egyptians and chinese invented paper, gunpowder, the compass – wow three things in 2000 plus years. i encourage you to keep going. progress was slow in those days, folks, it doesn’t even compare to today. virtually everything you use or come across in your daily life was invented in europe or america in modern history, you cannot deny this. this doesn’t mean whites are better as a whole than other races, it just means whites are better in that one area of thinking.
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europe didn’t pass china till the 1700’s? i believe the “age of discovery” occurred during the 1400 and 1500s. in fact europeans were journeying in and out of asia mapping their own territory and establishing trade as early as the 1200s.
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I was reminded of this post by a Tom Mountain article at Counterpunch.
White Americans like to hail their “founding fathers” for inventing so many democratic principles, and for authoring founding documents that express them. They very rarely credit all of the actual sources of such ideas — perhaps because some of the sources aren’t “white”?
Mountain writes in part,
As a printer [Benjamin] Franklin was in charge of the correspondence between the League of the Iroquois and the colonialists. He became such an authority on the American Indian that he was appointed to his first diplomatic post as Commissioner of Indian Affairs and acted as Ambassador to the League of the Iroquois for the colony of Pennsylvania.
Addressing the Albany Congress in 1754, Franklin called on the delegates from the English colonies to unite along the lines of the League of the Iroquois, something they were not to do until 30 years later.
Benjamin Franklin was also the author of the original, draft Constitution. When looking for models for Franklins new “democracy” in European society, you find little in over two thousand years of European history, having to go all the way back to the Roman and earlier Greek city states.
Yet if you look at Franklins neighbors, the League of the Iroquois, and their constitution, you find remarkable similarities with what Franklin envisioned in his Constitution.
Mountain goes on to list specific, imitated parallels between the structure of the U.S. government and the ruling structures of the Iroquois. He also describe Thomas Jefferson as a “student of the American Indian.”
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And to talk about hitler and stalin as the whites we refuse to take credit for, well my friends that are more then enough evil dictators of every color to go around for every culture.But anyways, as a whole we have done more for society then any other and if we hadn’t you would all still live like savages in africa or the middle east killing each other in tribes. As a whole we have been on the top the longest (the last 2000+ years and then some) and in recent years have done more then the rest of you combined over all of history. Either way we win. So just be grateful and say thank you to your local white person once in a while.
You don’t get it do you? Who invented what,or on what historical continuum etc. What is being discussed is the fact that when employing this argument, many whites impute the accomplishments of a few to a whole group. People who employ these arguments will conversely attribute negative attributes such as rolling out crime statistics in regards to blacks for example. By insinuation they are saying that blacks are inherently criminal in nature. Please reveal to us what you have invented that is beneficial to mankind, you, not some inventor whose accomplishments you are imputing to a whole group. In fact, tell us what each and every white person has invented as this is one of the special gifts white people possess. You can’t as individuals invent, not groups. Conversely, this can be applied to racialized groups which have been negatively stereotyped. Hence, when people say that blacks commit crimes, no, individuals who happen to be black commit crimes just as other individuals from other groups do.
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As always, Herneith, you hit the nail on the head. 🙂
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In regards to taking credit for two of the worst mass murderers in history, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. If you are going to take credit for the ‘good’ why not the bad? I understand where you’re coming from. It’s okay to stereotype racialized groups, but should they bring up miscreants like Hitler and Stalin, why, these are anomalies! Never mind the fact that millions of their countrymen enabled them to commit these atrocities. In regards to racialized groups, they did it, do it too, so this is okay? The old ;”They did, do it too argument. In essence you are excusing this behaviour, justifying it as others did it also! I guess it goes against the myth of ‘white benevolence’. Comprehension is an invaluable tool when reading in general, the two unfortunately aren’t mutually exclusive. You have illustrated this in abundance. You are being obtuse. In order to learn one asks questions. You reel things off as if by rote. Is this another ‘gift’ only white people possess? It would appear so judging by other responses similar to yours throughout this blog. No, this is another example of someone who feels inferior, and, by taking credit for something someone else accomplished and imputing this to their group, tries to make themselves feel superior. It aint working.
Have a nice day.
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People with White ears will defend the superiority complex to the bitter end regardless of logic, facts and sometimes common human decency. If they are not superior then they are nothing it seems. It’s just so ingrained and so sad.
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@Gen
People with White ears will defend the superiority complex to the bitter end regardless of logic, facts and sometimes common human decency. If they are not superior then they are nothing it seems. It’s just so ingrained and so sad.
THIS IS BEYOND TRUTH……so sad
Thanks Gen for once again putting it out there 🙂
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yes but the fact is that abagond is comparing modern days to the egyptian and chinese empires, and using this as a way of explaining racial equality. saying that ancient empires are as good or even greater in terms of inventions and discoveries is ridiculous. there were more scientific achievements in america between 1900-1950 than most of all history combined.
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That is not because white people are so much smarter than everyone else but because progress in science and invention is built on what has gone before. The more science you know the more science you can discover. The more inventions you have at hand, the more new inventions you can come up with. That is why the progress is exponential. It comes from the nature of science and technology, not from the nature of white intelligence.
Isaac Newton, one of the very people that white racists use in their inventor argument, agrees with me, Abagond:
“If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants.”
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orchid Says:
“it is true that some whites use the inventor argument to dodge racism. but it doesn’t deny that the white invention idea is true. ok so the egyptians and chinese invented paper, gunpowder, the compass – wow three things in 2000 plus years. i encourage you to keep going. progress was slow in those days, folks, it doesn’t even compare to today. virtually everything you use or come across in your daily life was invented in europe or america in modern history, you cannot deny this. this doesn’t mean whites are better as a whole than other races, it just means whites are better in that one area of thinking.”
What’s your point!
orchid Says:
“europe didn’t pass china till the 1700’s? i believe the “age of discovery” occurred during the 1400 and 1500s. in fact europeans were journeying in and out of asia mapping their own territory and establishing trade as early as the 1200s.”
Actually many different people were exploring the world long before that!
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South Indian Carnatic music is the most advanced form of classical music in the world. Western music can not match its complexity. Cant come near it.
Carnatic classical music originated from African descendants who were in India
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You can expect hatred. Internet is the last refuge for white supremacy. It is disappearing fast. It is all part of the divine process.
The oppressed will inherit the earth again. It is destiny.
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For those who want to believe that blacks are as inventive as whites and asians, I ask, Where are the Patents to prove it?
Where are the Nobel Prizes in Science, Math and Economics?
Where are the technical enterprises founded by blacks?
If blacks are the technical equals of whites and asians, then there should be black enterprises and black nations that form the living proof.
But there are none.
Africa is resource rich, and thus capable of financing basic education for everyone. But illiteracy is rampant. The state of life — the misery — of Africa is entirely the outcome of the people who live there — not whites. Not American whites.
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I could have used the same argument in 1100 to prove that the Chinese are better than whites.
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abagond, you wrote:
“I could have used the same argument in 1100 to prove that the Chinese are better than whites.”
The year is 2009. Not 1100. Your example shows only that societal mobility exists. Meanwhile, you have overlooked the fact that knowledge is not sacred. Once something is known, it is freely available to everyone on the planet.
Thus, a society showing signs of intellectual curiosity would quickly embrace new ideas from other countries. That’s how you get the benefits.
But even today, Africa is a continent where a huge percentage of the population is illiterate. It is a place where the “educated” are barely literate and almost no one knows anything about science and technology despite the fact that everything is available online.
However, the idea you seem to want to convey is the idea that the same group will always be on top.
That has not happened. However, history shows that whites have been the dominant intellectual force for at least 800 years.
Meanwhile, in 1100 there were no international competitions like the Nobels. There was no patent office and technology was primitive.
And — the pace of technical development was painfully slow in 1100. Probably 99% of all inventions came into existence since 1900.
By the way, Boeing’s new 787 Dreamliner went on its maiden flight today. The plane is made largely of composites. Very little metal was used in this aircraft.
If you visit Boeing you will see very few black engineers.
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Did you design this plane? If not, why are you taking credit for it albeit indirectly? Do you work for Boeing? As for the Nobel Prize, did you win one? Stop taking credit from individuals who you probably never met, will never meet, and know nothing about on a personal level. Now I am waiting for you to use the “Go back to Africa” argument, or perhaps the ‘Arab Trader’ one. Have a nice day Orchid, oops, Jack, or lord, I mean Slappz.
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@ Herneith
Notice how this seems to go in an endless circle each and every time a poster comes on here with those very same arguments as to why Blacks ain’t shit?
and as you so eloquently put it. looks like its the same damned poster time after time.
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oops i guess i shouldn’t have spelled out the whole S word. sorry 😦
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They seem to posess the ‘gift’ of pulling ‘facts’ out of their nether regions, LOL.
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No Slappz said:
“However, the idea you seem to want to convey is the idea that the same group will always be on top.
That has not happened. However, history shows that whites have been the dominant intellectual force for at least 800 years.”
Because if whites were better than everyone else, they would be on top most of time – not just for one-sixth of history.
“And — the pace of technical development was painfully slow in 1100. Probably 99% of all inventions came into existence since 1900.”
Right because the more inventions you have the more you can invent and so the pace quickens. That is no credit to white people.
“If you visit Boeing you will see very few black engineers.”
You have no idea how America works, do you?
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abagond,
Virtually no blacks worked on the newest Boeing plane because virtually no blacks graduate from engineering school and virtually no blacks get advanced degrees in science.
That’s how it is everywhere on the planet.
You wrote:
“…the more inventions you have the more you can invent and so the pace quickens. That is no credit to white people.”
Your point is merely a dodge. It is irrelevant. Today many simple inventions are patented. It is not just advanced semiconductors that are awarded new patents. Something as simple as a specialized dog collar can receive a patent.
Where are the black inventors in America?
In the last 50 years have any notable creations from blacks arrived?
Famous Amos cookies. That’s one.
On a related note, a lot of copyrighted music has been written by blacks.
There are some black writers who have written some novels. But other than Ralph Ellison, the handful of black writers are barely average.
A few black film-makers have had some success. Spike Lee.
But creating entertainment is unbound by principles of science. When it comes to inventing, all that matters is having enough education to understand the thing you are trying to make. To a guy trying to build a better mousetrap, a knowledge of advanced semiconductors is unnecessary.
Finally, it seems you have declared defeat. If you believe “the more inventions you have the more you can invent and so the pace quickens,” then you believe that whites and asians will continue to battle for first-place in the invention world while blacks will never get in the game.
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herneith, you wrote:
“Did you design this plane? If not, why are you taking credit for it albeit indirectly?”
I see. Are you arguing that NO differences exist between races?
Why are blacks dominant in all forms of athletics?
You asked:
“Do you work for Boeing?”
No.
You asked:
“As for the Nobel Prize, did you win one?”
No. But my name is on a patent.
Do you know that Jews win science-related Nobels at about 50 times the rate of non-Jews? Coincidence? Luck?
You demanded:
“Stop taking credit from individuals who you probably never met, will never meet, and know nothing about on a personal level.”
If the discussion is about white inventiveness, then it is important to provide as much evidence of white inventiveness as possible. That includes winning Nobel Prizes and other awards for scientific achievement.
You wrote:
“Now I am waiting for you to use the “Go back to Africa” argument, or perhaps the ‘Arab Trader’ one.”
Why? Your problems is your inability to escape the facts. Whites and asians convert lots of technical ideas into realities. Blacks do not.
If it were otherwise, somewhere in the world an advanced black nation would exist. But there is no advanced black nation. And the few advancements that are found in black nations had their origins elsewhere.
It is still a huge task for black nations to provide clean water to their citizens. In fact, they do not, and one of the leading causes of death in black nations is disease contracted from drinking unclean water.
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No. But my name is on a patent.
What, for mousetraps and dog collars? As you say anyone can get a patent for the most mundane items.
Do you know that Jews win science-related Nobels at about 50 times the rate of non-Jews? Coincidence? Luck?
Jews have been historically reviled and scapegoated through history, serving as the perennial ‘whipping boy’ for all sorts of ills. Because of this, they had to strive for excellence in many of the things they do to provide a safety net as it were. Even so, this didn’t stop all the pogroms, genocide etc, against them. This is what drives them perhaps, racist fools and not knowing when the next lunatic will appear to do the same thing again.
If the discussion is about white inventiveness, then it is important to provide as much evidence of white inventiveness as possible.
You miss the point. The discussion is not about ‘white inventiveness’. It’s about arguments posed when racism is being discussed. The white inventor argument is but one of many, an argument of last resort when the white person has run out of counter-arguments. Given this, why pull out facts out of your nether regions as this is not what is being discussed in this particular post?
Why? Your problems is your inability to escape the facts. Whites and asians convert lots of technical ideas into realities. Blacks do not.
What problem? I have no problems with inventions or who or what invented them. The problem I have is when people use this as an argument of last resort when such things as racism are being discussed. This is a blatant attempt to inflict their pseudo superiority complex on others. In reality it only shows their underlying inferiority complex. You seem to have a problem with comprehending this.
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herneith, you wrote:
“Jews have been historically reviled and scapegoated through history, serving as the perennial ‘whipping boy’ for all sorts of ills. Because of this, they had to strive for excellence in many of the things they do to provide a safety net as it were.”
Oh. Whipping boy? For all sorts of ills? What ills?
Anyway, you are saying when one group of people demonstrate evidence of an unusually strong collective intellect they are punished. Is that it?
Karl Marx was a Jew. And Milton Friedman was a Jew. Einstein was a Jew.
Where are the black economists? Okay, Thomas Sowell. Where are the black physicists? Anyone?
You wrote:
“Even so, this didn’t stop all the pogroms, genocide etc, against them.”
Today, only two segments of the world’s population is inherently anti-Semitic: muslims and blacks.
You wrote:
“This is what drives them perhaps, racist fools and not knowing when the next lunatic will appear to do the same thing again.”
You are totally wrong. Jews are people driven by a basic desire to be good at what they do. There are only 15 million Jews in our world of 6.8 Billion people. But the outpourings of Jewish intellect have had a profound and lasting impact on humanity.
The intellectual output of blacks has had virtually no impact on human history.
As for my patent, it involves a pollution control device used by power plants. But someone I know patented a special type of dog collar, actually more of a harness, and made millions. His harness is used by dog-lovers everywhere.
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Oh. Whipping boy? For all sorts of ills? What ills?
You don’t get out much do you? Go to any racist site and you will see just what people think of Jews albeit in various degrees. Many times you can’t figure out who is reviled more, blacks or jews.
Anyway, you are saying when one group of people demonstrate evidence of an unusually strong collective intellect they are punished. Is that it?
No, I did not say that they are being ‘punished’. That is your take on it.
Karl Marx was a Jew. And Milton Friedman was a Jew. Einstein was a Jew.
Yes, individuals.
Anyway, you are saying when one group of people demonstrate evidence of an unusually strong collective intellect they are punished. Is that it?
No, you are saying this.
Today, only two segments of the world’s population is inherently anti-Semitic: muslims and blacks.
Like I said, you don’t get out much.
The intellectual output of blacks has had virtually no impact on human history.
Racist drivel.
You have still missed the point of this post. It is about the ‘white inventor’ argument which is employed to justify or counter-act discussions or debates on racism. It is usually the argument of last resort. I must thank you for illustrating this beautifully! Have a nice day.
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herneith, one problem I see is your inability to understand the words you use.
You wrote:
““Jews have been historically reviled and scapegoated through history, serving as the perennial ‘whipping boy’ for all sorts of ills.”
I wrote:
“Anyway, you are saying when one group of people demonstrate evidence of an unusually strong collective intellect they are punished.”
You wrote:
“No, I did not say that they are being ‘punished’. ”
The standard anti-Semitic arguments characterize Jews as crafty people who outsmart everyone else to obtain power and money.
Then, the anti-Semite says it is vital to stop the Jews. End their nefarious activities, end the craftiness by driving them out, or by killing them or persecuting them.
But in your mind, driving a group of people out of a country or killing them is not “punishment”. Get a dictionary.
Some anti-Semites like to focus on how Karl Marx is a Jew and therefore Jews want to create a communist world. But then on the other side of that coin are all the Jews who are the master bankers — the Rothschilds — pulling all the money strings worldwide.
Or to secretly control the world, the Jews manipulate world opinion by owning the media.
Every anti-Semitic argument casts Jews as intellectually superior people who mysteriously rise to the top of an industry, or a part of society and then use their power and position as part of a plan to control the world.
In response, the anti-Semite wants to Punish Jews for their success in their chosen fields.
Anyway, Marx, Friedman and Einstein were Jews. You say they were merely individuals, which means you believe their Jewishness has no bearing on their success and is no reflection on Jews.
Oh. But over the history of man, Jews are credited with a huge percentage of intellectual advances. Nobel Prizes are one measure. When it comes to science-oriented Nobel prizes, Jews win them at many times the rate of all other groups.
Blacks win virtually NO Nobel Prizes — in any category.
Meanwhile, virtually no blacks earn PhDs.
On the other hand, blacks dominate in athletics. No white man will ever again become heavyweight boxing champion. Blacks dominate basketball.
Meanwhile, the thing about talent is its unstoppable nature. A person with talent and discipline will triumph, as talented black athletes prove over and over. They almost all come from poverty, raised by single mothers in bad neighborhoods where failure and misfortune are the norms. But they overcome the odds and shine.
Would the same upbringing improve white basketball players? Or are blacks out-and-out better athletes?
The history of athletics since the start of the 20th century, when we began closely documenting every athlete, is convincing. Blacks are better athletes than whites.
Does this evident fact bother you? Since you want to believe everyone is “equal”, it must.
Anyway, as I said, blacks have contributed almost NOTHING to human knowledge.
You said:
“Racist drivel.” But you are unable to give a few examples of black intellectual contributions. Why? Because in the history of the world, there have been no notable black mathematicians, chemists, physicists, biologists, etc.
Worse, today, with all knowledge freely available to anyone who seeks it, academic achievement in the black world has remained at painfully low levels. But black athletic talent is popping up everywhere.
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herneith, you wrote:
“You don’t get out much do you? Go to any racist site and you will see just what people think of Jews albeit in various degrees. Many times you can’t figure out who is reviled more, blacks or jews.”
What people say matters less than what they do. Nuts on websites who rant about Jews have zero impact on Jews.
However, when governments legalize discrimination against Jews and then begin to exterminate Jews, there’s a real problem.
Hitler wiped out 6 million Jews — one-third of all the Jews in the world. But despite the attempt a genocide, Jews have rebounded.
Blacks can rightly say that Jim Crow laws impinged upon their lives. But the last of those laws were eliminated in 1965. Legal discrimination based on race was ended.
At that point blacks were handed responsibility for their futures. The roadblocks — in the US — had been removed. As we have seen, when it comes to athletics and entertainment, no remedial help is needed. Talent abounds.
But when it comes to academics, problems persist. Top colleges add 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of blacks to make them competitive with white and asian applicants.
In other words, anti-black opinions held by whites mean nothing compared with actual laws affecting black life. White opinions of blacks are nothing compared with the impact of illegitimacy, fatherlessness, low academic achievement, substance abuse and violence.
Black culture is the force that retards black life. Whites are not the problem. When it comes to understanding success or lack of it, there is a fear of introspection and honest assessment among blacks.
Meanwhile, as I have said, if blacks were truly oppressed by whites, then somewhere in the world a successful black nation would exist that would prove the assertion.
Where is that nation? Does it have a patent office? Is it a place known for creativity?
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no_slappz says:
“For those who want to believe that blacks are as inventive as whites and asians, I ask, Where are the Patents to prove it?
Where are the Nobel Prizes in Science, Math and Economics?
Where are the technical enterprises founded by blacks?
If blacks are the technical equals of whites and asians, then there should be black enterprises and black nations that form the living proof.
But there are none.
Africa is resource rich, and thus capable of financing basic education for everyone. But illiteracy is rampant. The state of life — the misery — of Africa is entirely the outcome of the people who live there — not whites. Not American whites.”
Did you actually read what Abagond!? I don’t think you did!
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“Anyway, you are saying when one group of people demonstrate evidence of an unusually strong collective intellect they are punished.”
Are you dense or paranoid or both? As for Marx and Einstein, they are individuals who happen to be Jews. It is racist such as yourself who have made their religion the core of their being. You contradict yourself by ranting on ‘conspiracy theories, that I don-not for one, subscribe to. They are just that, the ranting of lunatics. It is these rantings that have caused these catastrophes. Anyone who subscribes to this is a fool. Unfortunately, the world has too many of them. I said and please, try to get the befuddlement out of your mind, that it is because of constant and rampant persecutions suffered by Jews, that many had to do better in order to survive in a racist world. If they were punished for that as you say, it was a result of racism.
As for you attributing these positive stereotypes to a group of people conversely, you go on to negatively stereotype another group. You see each group as monolithic, not as individuals who achieve things based upon their own merits and in many cases against all odds. You then go on to racialize groups giving them attributes that all must possess. You refer to black athletes using a similar example that I did with Jews. That is; the black athletes had to excel at their endeavors in order to succeed . Being oppressed either economically or socially,this was imperative for many. Is their group being punished through oppression due to the excellence of these athletes?
Does this evident fact bother you? Since you want to believe everyone is “equal”, it must.
You are right, everyone is not equal, but not in the racist way you characterize it.
“Racist drivel.” But you are unable to give a few examples of black intellectual contributions.
You still don’t get it do you? This topic is not about who invented what. It is about the argument of last resort when discussions on race occur. If you are losing an argument, bring up the ‘white inventor’ argument to shut down all discussions on race and to prove ‘white superiority instead of having a fruitful discussion on race. You have proved this in abundance. You go off into tirades of conspiracy theories and black athleticism. Thank you for providing an illustration of how this argument works! People take note! You see people as monoliths as opposed to individuals. Well, I am going to do what I do when I encounter this type of argument and that is, keep stepping. Have a nice day!
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@no_slappz
I think what Herneith is trying to say is – Stop using straw man arguments!
It’s pseudo intellectual at best!
As for the “no white heavyweight boxing champions” what about the Klitschko Brothers!
See ya later troll!
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vindicator, you wrote:
“As for the “no white heavyweight boxing champions” what about the Klitschko Brothers!”
You must be joking! Champions? No.
As far as I know, there are white fighters in every weight class. But they all lose to the black fighters. Why? Because the black fighters are better.
What makes them better than all other fighters? Their edge is a function of race. The records speak for themselves.
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herneith,
Why are there NO successful black nations?
What black nation is the most successful black nation?
Why do black students in the US score lower than whites and asians on SATs?
Why are there almost NO blacks with PhDs in physics, chemistry or math?
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Since you are being wilfully obtuse as to the meaning of this topic, don’t address me again as I will not be responding. Have a nice day1
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herneith,
In other words, you refuse to answer the questions I asked.
Your refusal makes it clear that you understand an honest answer is an admission of subpar societal performance by blacks.
Bottom line, whites and asians have developed inventive cultures.
However, ding dongs like abagond pretend the entire parade of human invention would have failed to begin had not the Chinese developed gunpowder and paper.
Unfortunately, all of you fail to understand the nature of the continuum. Inventiveness begets more inventiveness, but there is NOTHING stopping anyone from getting into the game. No external barriers.
But there are cultural barriers. Islam is anti-inventiveness. The practice of Islam explains the absolute absence of innovation in the muslim world.
Muslims can no longer conquer others and absorb their developments. Thus, the world has left them behind, and it will continue that way.
It should be different for blacks. But Islam is becoming popular among blacks too. Thus, there is no reason to think inventiveness among blacks will increase. However, I do expect a continuation of black creativity in music and other forms of entertainment.
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@no_slappz
My god you really need to read and get out more!
vindicator, you wrote:
“As for the “no white heavyweight boxing champions” what about the Klitschko Brothers!”
“You must be joking! Champions? No.”
Yet they have 3 out of the 4 championship belts!
Please stop using straw man arguments!
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no_slappz says:
“herneith,
In other words, you refuse to answer the questions I asked.
Your refusal makes it clear that you understand an honest answer is an admission of subpar societal performance by blacks.”
This coming from a guy that uses straw man arguments! That’s rich!
no_slappz says:
“Bottom line, whites and asians have developed inventive cultures.”
Gosh! Stating the obvious and a straw man argument!
no_slappz says:
“However, ding dongs like abagond pretend the entire parade of human invention would have failed to begin had not the Chinese developed gunpowder and paper.
Unfortunately, all of you fail to understand the nature of the continuum. Inventiveness begets more inventiveness, but there is NOTHING stopping anyone from getting into the game. No external barriers.”
Explain where is this going!
no_slappz says:
“But there are cultural barriers. Islam is anti-inventiveness. The practice of Islam explains the absolute absence of innovation in the muslim world.
Muslims can no longer conquer others and absorb their developments. Thus, the world has left them behind, and it will continue that way.
It should be different for blacks. But Islam is becoming popular among blacks too. Thus, there is no reason to think inventiveness among blacks will increase. However, I do expect a continuation of black creativity in music and other forms of entertainment.”
Is any of this relevant! Nope just another straw man argument!
What have I learnt today! Oh nothing!
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I deleted some comments on boxers. That is getting off-topic.
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Julian Abagond: ” I deleted the lastet comment on boxers. That is getting off-topic.”
Abagond, when are you going to make another topic?? How about the topic is why men cheat? How about women who love married men??
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If you want to suggest a topic, you should do it on the Suggestions page (the link is at the top of the page). If you do it here, I will forget.
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No Slappz:
I agree with Herneith: you are not taking this seriously. People answer your objections and then you say it is besides the point. When people tire of arguing with you, you declare victory – without, by the way, answering the objections in the post. How nice.
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No Slappz:
The reason blacks are so much better at sports than aerospace engineering has nothing to do with race: it has to do with education. Most blacks in America go to bad schools.
And, just so you know, racism did not disappear like magic in 1965.
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@vindicator:
Slappz loves the sound of his own typing, LOL. It is the old conundrum; what came first the chicken or the egg? An argument that goes no where due to him being obtuse. He is only interested in pontificating on his views. However he is helpful in that he illustrates how the ‘white inventor’ argument works! Back to waxing the floors!
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No Slappz said:
“However, ding dongs like abagond pretend the entire parade of human invention would have failed to begin had not the Chinese developed gunpowder and paper.”
If I am such a ding dong, then you should have no trouble destroying the argument I made in the post. Instead you argue past it. Or you beat us to death with points that were never in dispute, like that whites have made most of the important inventions of the past 200 years.
Invention is a common human gift. All races have it to a more or less equal degree. At any one point some part of the world is ahead of the rest – almost all the inventions will come from that part of the world. For about a sixth of human history, that part of the world has been white. So there is little reason to suppose that whites are any more inventive than anyone else.
Given that China and India now produce at least twice as many engineers as America, no one will be making this argument in a hundred years. Instead they will be making the Chinese inventor argument.
If you want to take in all of human history and not just the bit we live in, then the Egyptians are by far the most inventive. They invented stuff like, oh, civilization. They have been on top for 40% of human history, more than twice as long as whites. A good fraction of what we think of as “Greek” is Egyptian. Egypt is African. In the past it was much blacker than it is now. And it was not just the lower classes either: they found the skull of Cleopatra’s sister: she was black.
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When a white person comes out with a great invention, it is because he is white. But when he is a serial killer, it is just him. Because then, suddenly, “whites are individuals”:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/whites-are-individuals/
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@Herneith
Most trolls have an overinflated opinion of themselves and their own opinions.
Did any of you guys notice that No Slappz never tried to defend himself when I kept saying “strawman arguments” to him?
Instead he kept saying to us we’re in denial. Weird!
The fact that we are talking about this troll means he’s done his job very well!
Btw Herneith thanks for checking out my blog! Any of you guys are more than welcome to view, comment and make suggestions on my blog!
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vindicator, you wrote:
“Did any of you guys notice that No Slappz never tried to defend himself when I kept saying “strawman arguments” to him?”
You seem to believe if YOU claim an argument falls into the “strawman” category then that’s enough to end the debate.
Frankly, it’s clear to me you that you think a strawman argument is any argument you cannot rebut. At that point, you go for the “ad hominem” approach of calling the argument itself an bad name, and then you are done with it.
However, as I said, if the world were entirely populated by blacks, then the world would look like Africa, where adject poverty is the norm. Where the average life-span is less than 50 years.
Where diseases run wild. Where illiteracy is the norm. Where anarchy and tyranny define the general state of politics. Where there is no need for a patent office because no one invents anything.
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no_slappz says:
“You seem to believe if YOU claim an argument falls into the “strawman” category then that’s enough to end the debate.”
No! YOU said it! Not me!
no_slappz says:
“Frankly, it’s clear to me you that you think a strawman argument is any argument you cannot rebut. At that point, you go for the “ad hominem” approach of calling the argument itself an bad name, and then you are done with it.”
Frankly it’s clear to me that you’re a troll and you don’t know the meaning of term “Straw Man Argument”
No doubt you will see this as an “ad hominem” argument as well! Oh well! Not interested!
No doubt you will you want the last word on this argument because you fragile trollish ego demands it. After that you will spout of with some c*** like “blacks have this problem” and “whites can do this” all the while only proving Abagond’s point!
Still be my guest as I won’t be responding to any more of your comments! This is getting old, very quickly!
no_slappz says:
“However, as I said, if the world were entirely populated by blacks, then the world would look like Africa, where adject poverty is the norm. Where the average life-span is less than 50 years.
Where diseases run wild. Where illiteracy is the norm. Where anarchy and tyranny define the general state of politics. Where there is no need for a patent office because no one invents anything.”
Like I said in my above comment “Blacks have this problem” argument yet we’re discussing a completely different argument! Total “Straw Man” if I’ve ever heard one!
I expect to hear from you soon! Just don’t expect me to actually care! If you want to take this as you winning the argument so be it!
I have better things to do then debate with a dude with an overinflated ego that uses strawman arguments and completely begs the questions!
Bye bye Troll!
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abagond, you wrote:
“The reason blacks are so much better at sports than aerospace engineering has nothing to do with race: it has to do with education. Most blacks in America go to bad schools.”
Schools are a function of the people attending them. Harvard is great because almost all the students it accepts have already proven they are superior students.
When it comes to public schools in cities around the US, the grade schools are generally okay. In the early grades the kids are manageable and the academic differences between black, white and asian kids are not insurmountable.
But over the years in grade school, the gap widens.
Here in NY City, almost every year every kid takes city-wide and state-wide tests in English and math. Every couple of years the kids are given city-wide and state-wide tests in science and social studies.
The city has decades and decades of test data for the 1 MILLION kids who attend NY City public schools. Hardly a random sampling.
The results are painfully clear. Blacks and hispanics are almost all in the bottom two quartiles of achievement, while whites and asians account for almost all of the top quartile and a big portion of the second quartile.
You wrote:
“Most blacks in America go to bad schools.”
When you make this claim are you stating that the schools are deliberately staffed with incompetent teachers? Or do you mean there are violence problems in these “bad” schools?
Or do you mean they teach some strange form of math whereby the black students are taught to get different — incorrect — answers to math questions?
Do white kids go to these “bad” schools? How about asian kids?
When you say that “Most blacks in America go to bad schools,” does that extend to colleges?
America’s top colleges add 200 bonus points to the SAT scores of black applicants. Are they “bad”?
Who are the teachers at the “bad” schools? Are they the problem?
I guess you removed my Klitchko comments because they made it clear the two brothers had done well simply because they fought mainly white fighters and has-beens. But not because they were truly great fighters.
No reputable boxing analyst rates them at the top of the boxing world. Good fighters. But not great.
You wrote:
“And, just so you know, racism did not disappear like magic in 1965.”
Attitudes may persist. But, in fact, the Jim Crow laws were repealed by Congress. With the passage of the Civil Rights Act, they were gone — instantly.
In the 45 years since, the doors to every aspect of society have been open to blacks. Nevertheless, they lag in many ways. On the other hand, asians arrive in the US and build lives far more easily, even when they arrive without knowing English.
As a resident of the Flatbush section of Brooklyn, I see people from almost every country of the world every day. Group characteristics are on display at all times.
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abagond, you wrote:
“When a white person comes out with a great invention, it is because he is white.”
Whites and asians are inventive because the white and asian worlds include a highly inventive technical segment. The inventiveness extends to every area of life.
However, the divergence between the races is an interesting point. While blacks have created a lot of successful music, proving there is a creative spirit within, they have not had much success generating creative ideas that require an understanding and knowledge of math and science.
You wrote:
“But when he is a serial killer, it is just him. Because then, suddenly, “whites are individuals”:”
Only in the muslim world are there schools for mass murderers who target innocent civilians. Of course, to be fair, the US military trains many people to kill. Special Forces personnel are commissioned to assassinate.
But they cannot be called serial killers.
Meanwhile, by making your claim, you are playing a word game.
Murder is not a creative act. It is as unimaginative as an act can be. You might argue that attempting to commit the perfect crime takes a clever mind. But, as OJ proved, it takes only a jury willing to overlook the facts. In any case, the actual killing is an old story.
Meanwhile, most serial killers are mentally unstable people with measurable psychological dysfunction. If you want to claim the serial-killer dysfunction is more common in whites than blacks, okay. Possibly true. But there’s no link between inventiveness and a compulsion to murder.
In any case, when it comes to homicide, blacks commit murder at a rate about 7 TIMES the white rate. Seven Times. That’s huge. That’s staggering.
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I’ve not been on this blog long enough to know whether “no_slappz” is a racist or if he is rather a race-realist(yes, I do draw a distinction though sometimes it can be hard to tell the difference). Nor have I read every single post in this thread so forgive me if I’m missing any key posts.
I think people like slappz tend to really drive black folks crazy because deep down black folks know that at least some of what he is saying has a painful sting of truth to it. It can’t be denied that most of the shit we use in the modern world came from Western thinking. And even when it did originate in another part of the world, Westerners greatly improved upon it and took it to new levels. The Japanese are now turning around and further improving upon things that Westerners created, such as cars, cameras and televisions. China has taken manufacturing to new levels beyond what the west has done. So this process is kind of never-ending.
I genuinely hate that kind of talk where it gets into “my race invented X more things than your race” and on an emotional level it irks me. Even if I was white I’d feel that way, because it just sounds so bellicose. Sure, whites have contributed a million times more to science and innovation than blacks have, that’s undeniable, but at the same time, the fact is, 99.9% of whites have contributed nothing either. And 99.999% of blacks haven’t. Those numbers are simply conjectural of course to illustrate a point. Accomplishment is first and foremost an individual act done by extremely exceptional people. Almost all whites as well as blacks will contribute virtually nothing to society of any lasting worth other than work for someone else, consume and pay taxes. So if you are white and have contributed nothing to innovation or technology, you have no business lecturing anyone else on what they haven’t contributed.
Of these few very exceptionally gifted people who have created so much in recent history, a disproportionate amount have certainly been white and especially Jewish and increasingly Asian. However, that does not amount to meaning that everyone in the group is gifted or capable of doing such things. Not by far, like I said 99.9% of any group will never do anything extraordinary like file a patent or win a nobel prize in science. Nor will any more than a tiny fraction of blacks out of a billion become world class athletes, even if they are *on average* better athletes than whites or Asians.
Having said all that, the world does have much to thank for the innovations of western culture. There’s no need for blacks or anyone else to lament that fact. The invention of the scientific method was probably the most important thing that came out of the west(and maybe all of world history) because it formalized the process of discovering knowledge. Knowledge then begets knowledge, discovery begets more discovery and advancement starts to become logarithmic. Which explains why it took thousands of years to invent the lightbulb, yet only 5 decades to go from the first rickety airplane in Kittyhawk to landing men on the moon. Why this process of discovery and invention happened greatly in some parts of the world and hardly in other parts, I don’t know for sure.
Some will say, “well the west has used their technology to exploit and plunder others.” Sure, they have. No doubt about it. But there is nothing about such behaviors that is exclusively western in thought or origin. Everywhere on the planet, one tribe or nation was warring with another and the weaker ones were killed off, exploited or enslaved. I’ve studied pre-colonial west African history and it’s various empires and vassal states. If they had the technology of Europe, I have little doubt we’d have seen the same global imperial behavior based on what was already going on in Africa. It’s just the primal human condition, period. Romans even enslaved other whites from N. Europe. In WWII whites were still fighting amongst each other and killing one another by the millions so if they could act that way toward even each other, it’s no surprise they could be that way towards non-Europeans.
But to get back the “white inventions” issue, I understand this topic does irk black folk, but there’s no reason it has to. If blacks have been unrepresented in the sciences for all of history, then it means it’s time to step up to the plate. We can either choose to get mad when people like no_slappz talk about lack of black accomplishments in science or technology, or we can start fostering a culture that values such things and steering black youth away from sports and more toward the sciences. Too many black kids see sports and entertainment as the only way to make it. In the end, who cares what racists think of us. I really don’t so long as they aren’t standing in my way, because what we do to each other is way more important.
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abagond, you wrote:
“Invention is a common human gift. All races have it to a more or less equal degree.”
Where’s the proof? Blacks invent nothing while whites and asians have been clogging up the record books with inventions for centuries.
You wrote:
“At any one point some part of the world is ahead of the rest – almost all the inventions will come from that part of the world.”
Blacks have NEVER led the world. NEVER.
You wrote:
“For about a sixth of human history, that part of the world has been white. So there is little reason to suppose that whites are any more inventive than anyone else. ”
I see. So the sheer volume of inventions by whites is an indicator of nothing and the total absence of inventions by blacks is equally meaningless.
What information is meaningful?
You wrote:
“Given that China and India now produce at least twice as many engineers as America, no one will be making this argument in a hundred years. Instead they will be making the Chinese inventor argument.”
Now you are showing your ignorance about numbers. China’s population is around 1.5 billion — FIVE times the US population. India’s population is around 1.2 billion — FOUR times the US population.
Thus, if China is graduating TWICE as many engineers as the US, then the RATE is way behind the US rate. If the number of graduating engineers is your measure for inventiveness, then China would have to graduate FIVE times as many engineers as the US to maintain Parity.
But you claim China is graduating only TWICE as many. Thus, China is lagging.
In any case, the greatest engineering schools in the country are in the US. The best engineering students in the world come to America for their educations. No country in the world has schools that can beat MIT or CalTech. Moreover, there are many more science and engineering schools that are almost as good.
You wrote:
“If you want to take in all of human history and not just the bit we live in, then the Egyptians are by far the most inventive.”
Wrong. They built the pyramids, and can perhaps claim a couple of early technical advances. But arguing in your fashion suggests you believe if the Egyptians had not invented paper (or whatever you think they invented) then it would have NEVER been invented.
But, virtually every invention and scientific concept was under development in more than one location on the globe. Since ancient records are unreliable, it’s tough to prove who was actually first.
By the way, it is amusing that you think so highly of the Egyptians. The relatively modern Egyptians were incapable of reading the languages of their ancestors.
The Rosetta Stone was found in Egypt by Napoleon. A series of messages were etched into the stone. But no one in Egypt could translate the writing. Napoleon and his army took the stone back to France where it was deciphered by a French linguist/anthropologist in 1820.
You wrote:
“They invented stuff like, oh, civilization.”
“Civilization” was not invented. Meanwhile, organized human societies like those found in the Nile Valley existed centuries earlier in Sumeria.
You wrote:
“They have been on top for 40% of human history, more than twice as long as whites.”
Top 40%? How was that 40% measured?
You wrote:
“A good fraction of what we think of as “Greek” is Egyptian.”
I gather you have read one of those revisionist history books that claim everything attributed to “Egyptians” was actually the product of black Africans.
In fact, what we think of as Greek, is Greek.
If people in another part of the world happened to stumble onto a mathematical reality without codifying it into their societal records, it is impossible to claim they had any understanding of the phenomenon.
Anyone can draw a circle but have no understanding of the concept of Pi.
Everyone who has ever lived has experienced gravity. But it took Isaac Newton to begin to explain it. He’s a white guy.
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Now here is where people like no_slappz take things way overboard. Of course there have been inventions in Africa. Have their been UNIQUE inventions there is another question. Agricultural was discovered in sub saharan Africa, they were also smelting iron in W. Africa before the process had been done in Europe(contrary to many people’s beliefs that black Africa was stone age). I noticed that slappz said that realism in art only existed in Europe, but that is not accurate, it also existed in west African sculpture. Look at the Yoruba sculptures and tell me that wasn’t realism.
Look at the facial details and especially the detail on the ears which is one of the most intricate objects to sculpt. They are equal in likeness to anything I’ve seen in ancient Greek bronze sculpture. Here are some more:
https://images.asc.ohio-state.edu/is/image/mediamanager/A/a3305296-093b-47ca-bd9c-3b7995a9bc8f.jpg/?size=450,450&fmt=png
So West Africa simultaneously had realism in art as well as highly complex abstraction:
West Africa did not have an indigenous system of math or alphabet, but the beginnings of an African writing system was in the making in the form of various ideograms which eventually evolve to become a written language.
West Africa was certainly not technologically advanced, but at the same time, people act like everyone was running around naked swinging from vines using stone tools for tens of thousands of years. Which wasn’t the case either. There were many empires in west Africa, some with armies of cavalry, that had their own currencies, universities and traded across the Sahara. As for East Africa, I don’t believe most the Egyptians were black(there were some of course that came up from Nubia as we can see in their paintings of many black skinned people wearing Egyptian garb). Blacks did rule Egypt during the 25th dynasty, and the Nubians from further south in the continent and certainly were black and had an advanced civilization for the time.
It’s also interesting to note that many parts of Europe were quite primitive until the Roman expanded north. Britain was no more civilizationally developed than west Africa at the time the Romans encountered them. They had no system of math or writing, were practicing cannibalism and witchcraft and living as tribesman. If race had everything to do with advancement, the Celtics should’ve been as advanced as the Romans. But the difference is, the Celts were geographically isolated from advanced civilization, just as West Africans were. Civilization began in what we now call Iraq. Those that lived closest to that region got a huge headstart on everyone else, the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, etc. Those farthest away and geographically isolated e.g. west Africans, Aboriginees, Celts, Eskimos, etc were comparatively primitive. The civilizations of meso-America were an exception however.
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tulio, you wrote:
“Of course there have been inventions in Africa.”
Inventions? In Africa? Name a couple. Name one.
You wrote:
“Have their been UNIQUE inventions there is another question.”
The wheel? Fire? Telling tme? Anything?
You wrote:
“Agricultural was discovered in sub saharan Africa, they were also smelting iron in W. Africa before the process had been done in Europe(contrary to many people’s beliefs that black Africa was stone age). ”
Please. First, agriculture was not “discovered.” It evolved from simple food-gathering activities. Obviously primitive people found edible plants in the wild, yanked them out of the ground and tried to plant them in soil closer to home.
This is like drawing a circle but having no idea about Pi. Or feeling the pull of gravity without having the slightest idea of what it is.
With respect to gravity, primitive people developed some slight understanding that water in rivers flowed downhill.
Anyway, an enlightened culture is a culture that develops an understanding of knowledge. It becomes understood that knowledge can be stored and shared.
The culture is the total of its accumulated knowledge. But the knowledge can come from anywhere. Either an internal or external source. Thus, written language became a key part of creating a warehouse of knowledge. The key to sharing the written knowledge came from reading.
Bottom line — white and asian cultures began to accumulate knowledge. Knowledge was spread through trade and through conquest.
Did Africans seek trade with people outside the contintent? No. Did explorers and traders from other lands arrive on the continent? Yes.
Whites explored the world and mapped it, finishing the initial job about 400 years ago. Blacks? Nope. No explorers.
In other words, the accumulated knowledge in black African cultures was limited to knowledge of how to survive. That’s it. Things remained at primitive levels until the 20th century and today much of the continent is, in relative terms, still primitive.
You wrote:
“There were many empires in west Africa, some with armies of cavalry, that had their own currencies, universities and traded across the Sahara. ”
There were many tribes, and through the influence of revisionist history, they might now be known as “nations”, but they were primitive societies that came and went, just like all primitive societies. The problem lies in the fact that the primitive societies were replaced by other primitive societies — until the explorers and traders arrived.
As for your claim about “universities” — pure nonsense. Total fiction.
Schooling was brought in by the nations backing the explorers and traders.
Anyway, there is only one reason a record of Africa’s history exists — because whites went to Africa and started taking notes on what was found.
Africans themselves knew nothing of their own history. But that’s hardly news when no one on the continent could read or write.
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No Slappz said:
“I guess you removed my Klitchko comments because they made it clear the two brothers had done well simply because they fought mainly white fighters and has-beens. But not because they were truly great fighters.”
I deleted it because it was off topic. Read the title of the bloody post. Unless you mean that because blacks are good at sports they must lack intelligence. If so, you did not make that clear.
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No Slappz said:
“In the 45 years since, the doors to every aspect of society have been open to blacks. Nevertheless, they lag in many ways. On the other hand, asians arrive in the US and build lives far more easily, even when they arrive without knowing English.
As a resident of the Flatbush section of Brooklyn, I see people from almost every country of the world every day. Group characteristics are on display at all times.”
I can only imagine what you would think of me if you saw me walking down the street. I go to Flatbush every now and then, so maybe you have.
Racism: Yes, things are easier, but that does not mean racism is gone.
Some points about Asians compared to blacks:
1. They face less racism than blacks.
2. The ones who do well got a good deal of their education overseas or have middle-class parents.
3. The model minority is a self-serving stereotype that whites have about Asians. For example, Laotians, Cambodians and many of the Chinese in America are stuck in poverty.
More here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/the-model-minority-stereotype/
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No Slappz said:
“The results are painfully clear. Blacks and hispanics are almost all in the bottom two quartiles of achievement, while whites and asians account for almost all of the top quartile and a big portion of the second quartile.”
So when the public schools fail, it is blamed on the students. How nice.
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No Slappz:
My point about white serial killers and white inventors is that you quickly claim white inventors as “white”, but not serial killers. Why is that? I mean, you are into observed characteristics. So just as whites are naturally good at invention, so by your line of reasoning, whites are also naturally given to serial murder.
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“Whiteboy” is now a moderated term:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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No Slappz:
I get it: if someone does not share your narrow-minded reading of history, it is “revisionist’. How nice.
Do you get how close-minded you are? Instead of arguing from facts to conclusions, you argue from conclusions to facts, dismissing those that do not fit. You are not an honest thinker.
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No Slappz said:
“By the way, it is amusing that you think so highly of the Egyptians. The relatively modern Egyptians were incapable of reading the languages of their ancestors.”
By the way, it is amusing that you think so highly of Westerners. The Westerners in the 1000s and 1100s were incapable of reading the Greeks. They needed the Arabs to know about their own past.
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No Slappz said:
“Wrong. They built the pyramids, and can perhaps claim a couple of early technical advances.”
The West gets its writing from Egypt, by way of the Romans, Greeks and Phoenicians. But you dismiss that as “an early technical advance”.
“But arguing in your fashion suggests you believe if the Egyptians had not invented paper (or whatever you think they invented) then it would have NEVER been invented.”
I never said that. If the Egyptians had not invented paper, someone else would have. But, for the very same reason, if whites had not invented television, someone else would have.
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No Slappz said:
“As for your claim about “universities” — pure nonsense. Total fiction.
Schooling was brought in by the nations backing the explorers and traders.
Anyway, there is only one reason a record of Africa’s history exists — because whites went to Africa and started taking notes on what was found.
Africans themselves knew nothing of their own history. But that’s hardly news when no one on the continent could read or write.”
Timbuktu in the 1300s had some of the best schools and scholars in the world. Timbuktu itself was larger than London and more world-famous at the time.
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No Slappz said:
“There were many tribes, and through the influence of revisionist history, they might now be known as “nations”, but they were primitive societies that came and went, just like all primitive societies. The problem lies in the fact that the primitive societies were replaced by other primitive societies — until the explorers and traders arrived.”
Hardly, and I think Tulio can back me up here. In the 1300s the Mali Empire in West Africa was one of the richest in the world and had one of the world’s greatest seats of learning, Timbuktu:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/mali-empire/
This is not revisionist history either. Some of its buildings still stand, making it clear that the empire must have been large and powerful. We also have traveller’s accounts, like that of Ibn Battuta.
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Abagond: A good fraction of what we think of as “Greek” is Egyptian.
No Slappz: I gather you have read one of those revisionist history books that claim everything attributed to “Egyptians” was actually the product of black Africans.
In fact, what we think of as Greek, is Greek.
Greek writing, astronomy, geometry, architecture, etc, all go back to Egypt. Why do you think they wrote on paper and had temples built with columns? They did not get that from Babylon. We are taught not to see the Egyptianness of the Greeks but it is pretty clear to anyone who opens his eyes. It does not take a revisionist historian to see it.
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@abagond:
By the way, it is amusing that you think so highly of Westerners. The Westerners in the 1000s and 1100s were incapable of reading the Greeks.
Also try reading Chaucer without it being translated. I doubt 99% of people today could read it, and that is English, or Middle Ages English. In fact, it was only the elite and religious orders who could read and write. So in effect most people were illiterate. Why were they not all literate if they were all so inventive?
Africans themselves knew nothing of their own history. But that’s hardly news when no one on the continent could read or write.”
This patently false. With the onset of colonialism, one of the first things they do is oppress the subjugated people’s
Culture. In many instances they erased it. Ergo, much of this information is lost and cannot be retrieved. It’s like the North American Native languages that have disappeared. Many cultures and languages have been eradicated through colonialism and, or land appropriation. It is disingenuous to claim therefore, that these things did not exist. We don’t know. Flipping the script at it’s best!
until the explorers and traders arrived.”
Bringers of rack and ruin more like. I am sure the inhabitants did not view them as ‘explorers’ after they got to know them. Traders? Thieves more like.
We are taught not to see the Egyptianness of the Greeks but it is pretty clear to anyone who opens his eyes. It does not take a revisionist historian to see it.
If you read about the any of the Ancient Greeks writings, you will constantly see references to Ancient Egypt as a source of much of their learning. Comte de Volney, 1757-1820, had this to say about the Egyptians.
“but reverting to Egypt, its contributions to history afford many subjects for philosphic reflection . What a subject for mediation is the present-day barbarity and ignorance of the Copts who were considered born of the alliance of the deep genius of the Egyptians and the brilliance of the Greeks, that this race of blacks who nowadays are slaves and the objects of our scorn is the very one to which we owe our arts, our sciences and even the use of spo ken word and finally recollect that it is in the midst of the peoples claiming to be the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that the most barbarous of enslavements has been sanctioned and the question raised whether black men have brains of the same quality as those of white men!
You see, it was even well known then as to where Greek learning emanated from. With the onset of colonialism, all to this changed.
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abagond, you wrote:
“If the Egyptians had not invented paper, someone else would have. But, for the very same reason, if whites had not invented television, someone else would have.”
Someone else? You mean someone of another race? Perhaps. And if things had gone that way, the person would have been asian. There’s no chance the inventor would have been black.
Meanwhile, “Egyptians” were not a race. Perhaps the “ancient Egyptians” represent an ethnicity, but not a race.
In any case, people living in coastal areas, like those near the mouth of the Nile and the Mediterranean Sea, are the people most likely to meet explorers and traders.
Thus, you really have no idea about the actual flow of knowledge. Which way did it flow?
Of course you believe Africans were the ones to unlock a lot of secrets.
So what happened? Did mass stupidity descend on the continent?
Today, most of Africa is a dump. Illiteracy is the norm. Disease, violence and backwardness dominate the continent.
It takes a lot of work to drive all that historic knowledge out of the minds of virtually everyone in Africa. But virtually no one living in Africa today is a legitimate scientist who was educated in African schools and universities. Nobody.
As for London vs Timbuktu in the 1300s, well, the only measure that matters is how those two places have fared over the centuries.
A lot of factors affect the placement and development of cities. Some of those factors never change — like the enduring value of London’s location. And London’s leadership in education.
Timbuktu. Sorry. It was nothing but a trading post. A muslim trading post, by the way. There were no great universities or any other schools of lasting significance. Meanwhile, the place was conquered and reconquered over the centuries, which means there was always a more powerful force ready to drop by.
Bottom line — if you want to invalidate the claim that whites are the world’s greatest inventors, all you have to do is get out the record books and tally the inventions of each race. Since you believe blacks are as inventive as whites and asians, the data should confirm your hypothesis.
But we both know the record shows that blacks invent nothing while whites and asians invent stuff every day.
We also know that practicing Islam causes an end to inventiveness among muslims. To be black and muslim is a double whammy.
You wrote:
“We are taught not to see the Egyptianness of the Greeks but it is pretty clear to anyone who opens his eyes.”
No one is taught that way. A column (Doric, Ionic or Corinthian) is about as basic as a structure gets. Anyone who has seen a tree intuitively understands the concept.
That claim is one of the lunacies of “black history”. No white student cares about the race of the people who first developed anything. Geometry, arches, columns, logic, democracy. All that matters are the concepts themselves.
Every chemistry and physics test and every engineering exam I took in engineering school demanded my understanding of the scientific concepts. No professor ever asked about the person behind the theory.
All that matters are the concepts themselves. But people like you want to pretend it matters where an idea originated.
F = MA or E = 1/2MVsquared. Does it matter who had these brilliant insights? No.
The only important factor is getting more people to understand them and use them. But with blacks, it has not happened.
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No Slappz said:
“Timbuktu. Sorry. It was nothing but a trading post. A muslim trading post, by the way. There were no great universities or any other schools of lasting significance. Meanwhile, the place was conquered and reconquered over the centuries, which means there was always a more powerful force ready to drop by.”
If you are going to overlook whatever facts of history do not suit your argument, then it is pointless to say anything to you. You are locked in your own self-delusion and nothing I say will make any difference.
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You are locked in your own self-delusion and nothing I say will make any difference.
That is the understatement of the day! If he thinks blacks are so ‘stupid’, why does he continue to debate the point? In fact, why does he come here at all? Another white supremacist trying to foist his pseudo superiority on the ‘lesser’ folk perhaps. He should go pontificate to someone who shares his views and actually cares about them.
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I’m not going to bother debating futher with no_slappz because I have better things to do with my time than run in circles with close-minded bigots who have an axe to grind. After reading a few more of his posts, it’s obvious he has an agenda here, and it certainly doesn’t involve approaching us with an olive branch in hand.
No historian denies that Mali was an empire, nobody denies that it was black or that it had a university that was known throughout the Muslim world or that it had trade and currency. It’s laughable how people will then say, “well it was a MUSLIM city” like the fact that it got influence from the outside world is something lamentable. Christianity didn’t originate in Europe, nor did math, a system of writing, or even the invention of the wheel. ALL these things originated in the middle east.
I notice slappz didn’t even acknowledge that he was wrong when he made his absolutely ludicrous claim that only Europeans had realism in art when in fact African realism in art predates European realism in art, but he won’t acknowledge it, even though the information is widely available on the net. As for his inane nonsense about no empires in Africa, if he is too lazy to even do a google/wiki search on the topic where there is free and widely available information, not from Afrocentrists(who I don’t even bother with) but legitimate historians, yet alone read any books on the subject, then why bother with such a person. Who needs to argue with someone who is proudly ignorant and chooses to be.
He also said agriculture wasn’t discovered. Of course it was discovered. Humans spent 10s of thousands of years as hunter gatherers before somebody figured out that if you plant seeds in the ground, irrigate and take care of them, you can settle in one area and not have to wander about looking for food. Seems pretty axiomatic since someone already told you that, but if nobody explained it to you, you’d have no idea how it works. Agriculture was one of the most important human inventions ever, right up there with creating fire and metallurgy as it allowed for settlement itself. Agriculture was discovered independently both in east and west Africa. It was not discovered in some parts of the world such as aboriginal Australia.
West African entered the Iron Age before Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_West_Africa
“Iron industry, in both smelting and forging for tools and weapons, appeared in Sub-Saharan Africa by 1200 BCE. [1] The increased use of iron and the spread of ironworking technology led to improved weaponry and enabled farmers to expand agricultural productivity and produce surplus crops, which together supported the growth of urban city-states into empires.”
I wouldn’t call agriculture and iron smelting to be insignificant inventions. They were 2 of the most important things man ever discovered because they create a foundation for so many other things. They were both developed, independently in West Africa. So I don’t think it’s fair to say Africans never invented anything.
It’s interesting to me that white supremacist types love to beat Africans over the head and tell them how primitive and backward they think they are and that they have no history and whatnot. Interesting thing is, Africa was never the most primitive place on earth. People tend to think it was, and that’s historically inaccurate. The Native Americans of N. America were more primitive than the Africans, yet whites seem to respect them more. There were certainly advanced civilizations in central America and the Andes, but the natives of the Americas outside of that region were extremely primitive, like the Amazon Indians, the natives of horn of S. America. The natives of the Carribbean, pretty much all of N. America including the Eskimos. Metallurgy was unknown anywhere in the Americas, yet it was discovered in Africa. Yet people disrespect Africans more than Native Americans. The Aborigines and Polynesians were ever more primitive than the Native Americans. So when ranking various parts of the world on their “primitiveness” I don’t understand why people act like W. Africans were at the bottom. I mean I don’t see white supremacists on Native American forums beating them over the head about how much they never contributed to the world and how useless they are. I mean how much have Native Americans contributed to technology and science? So why don’t we see people like no_slappz on their forums arguing with them about it? Why is Africa their perennial whipping boy? Why do white racists wake up in the morning hating Africans who have never done a damn thing to them? Such miserable people they must truly be at heart.
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Great post Tulio. I know we won’t even have to wait a hot minute before No Slappz comes back to add to his incessantly long posts full of drivel. 😦
Mixing some truths with absolute fiction.
“sigh”
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I agree: excellent comment, Tulio.
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Good post, Tulio
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Talk about changing the subject. You nitwits want to argue that blacks are as inventive as whites and asian, but the best you can do is sidestep into a commentary about other ethnic groups that had periods of backwardness and lagging that equaled or surpassed the black experience.
Yeah, let’s discuss Polynesians, Native Americans or Australian aborigines.
You might want to consider the aspects of life common to the Polynesians, Native Americans, aborigines and blacks. Then you might begin to develop an understanding of why some groups lag and others lead.
Anyway, if you had some examples of black inventiveness, I could treat your claims as more than a joke.
As for Timbuktu, the fact that it was a muslim trading post means it was developed and reached its peak because muslims came from another part of the globe and did what they did for a few centuries, which was to conquer hapless indigenous populations and extract whatever was there for the taking.
You fail to understand that the practice of Islam always marks the end of inventiveness. Muslims take from the societies they conquer. But they themselves do not add to the collective knowledge.
The spread of Islam is one reason Africa has languished. Islam bills itself as the comprehensive philosophy of life. Thus, if Muhammad did not envision something, then that thing is not permitted in muslim life.
Since Muhammad was no scientist, and since he declared Islam was superior to all things, the notion of science challenging the omnipotence of Allah was unacceptable. Hence, in Islamic countries, ignorance is the chief output of government and society.
As for your comments about art and realism, I don’t know where you got them. However, African art is, in every way, primitive, and has none of the psychological qualities of art from advanced cultures.
As for agriculture — it is NOT an “invention”. The wheel is an invention. The spear is an invention. Making metal is a process — which is an invention.
Agronomy is the science of crop production.
When did early hunter/gatherers/farmers realize they could collect seeds and plant more crops? Maybe you know. But early agriculture boils down to finding edible plants and attempting to get them to grow where the grower wants them rather than where Nature put them.
Thus, about the only “invention” tied to early agriculture was the sharp stick seed-planters jabbed into the ground to make the hole where the seed was dropped.
Anyway, once again I ask — if blacks societies were as successful as you claim, what happened?
I’ve always gotten a bang out of the explanations given by people like Minister Fard from the Nation of Islam.
He wrote about Tricknology and how whites stole all the knowledge straight from the heads of blacks. It’s all very amusing.
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A round of applause for tulio! *woot*
Excellent post! 😀
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YUP. less than an hour and the KING of run- on posts is back. he is gonna keep commenting on this thing until the coroner has to come and pry his dead bony hands off of the keyboard-years and years from now. cos that is how long he is willing to keep this up.
😦
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No Slappz said:
“Since Muhammad was no scientist, and since he declared Islam was superior to all things, the notion of science challenging the omnipotence of Allah was unacceptable. Hence, in Islamic countries, ignorance is the chief output of government and society.”
Oh, right, Muslims hate science. If it were not for the Arabs the West would know very little of what Archimedes, Aristotle, and Ptolemy wrote. The West did not get it from the Romans because, despite their nice, beautiful white skin, they did not care much for science.
I doubt you will take this to heart, but here it goes:
You wilfully misread history to do what? To belittle Muslims and blacks. And why is that? Because American and Israeli society is unjust to them and deep down you know it, though you will never admit it to yourself. The only way you can feel good about yourself, as a Jew and as a White American, is to find reasons to look down on them and pump up Jews and whites. That is why you keep hitting us over the head with white inventions of the past 200 years even though that was never in dispute. That is why you feel the need to come here and twist facts and arguments so you can belittle us, making ignorant comments that would make Steve Sailer cringe.
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@ AO
YUP. less than an hour and the KING of run- on posts is back. he is gonna keep commenting on this thing until the coroner has to come and pry his dead bony hands off of the keyboard-years and years from now. cos that is how long he is willing to keep this up.
—————————————————
All you’ll see is this
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EXACTLY. Aiyo.
😀
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@AO & Aiyo:
That’s hilarious! It couldn’t be further from the truth. lol! 😀
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Why the hell are we talking about Minister Fard or the NOI like anyone gives a damn. There are more whites that believe Elvis is still alive than there are black members of the NOI. If you want to discuss them, go right ahead, but I’m not interested, thank you. If you’ve got an issue with the NOI and their Afrocentric claims, take it up with them. I’m a pragmatist, not an Afrocentrist, which means I neither take the view that Africa was advanced and had all her inventions stolen by whites, nor do I take the view that blacks did nothing but swing from vines like monkeys until whites showed up and taught them how to walk. I don’t even listen to Afrocentrists, so don’t try and put that label on me.
Yeah, it’s called geographic isolation. It’s the reason why the illiterate, low-tech white people of Northern Europe were still practicing cannibalism and paganism while the Romans gained from the collective knowledge of nearby pre-existing civilization. Can you give me a reason why the Celts were primitive and illiterate tribemen while the Romans were an advanced empire even though they were of the same white race? It was hundreds of years after the Celts had been conquered and civilized by the Romans that they began to stand on their own two feet. Why is that? Why didn’t N. Europeans develop advanced civilization on their own?
Lol, so is that the reason you came here? To learn about black inventions? Why don’t you cut the bullshit, you aren’t here to learn anything about black people, you are here to give soliloquies for the purpose of boosting your own ego with the aid of a captive black audience. Tell you what my friend, why don’t you save both my time and yours with a google search. Weren’t you the one that was extolling the virtues of free and open information on the net? Well heed your own advice and quit wasting our time with circular arguments.
http://www.google.com/search?q=black+inventors
End of issue for me.
Uh, that’s quite a bastardized synopsis of Mali’s history. Not that I think for a second that you are here to learn anything, of course. 😉 Once again, go avail yourself of the free and open information out there before you try to discuss things you clearly have no knowledge of. It’ll make things less annoying for all parties involved. Hell, even wikipedia is better than nothing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire
Once again, too much ignorance to even bother fully unwinding and I think you need to read more. Islamic society had a golden era while Europe was in the dark ages. From the 9th till the 15th century, Islam was at the forefront of philosophical enlightenment, math, science, engineering, architecture, astronomy, exploration, trade and many other things. You are imposing the modern picture of Islam(radical Islam in particular) and imposing it upon the Islam of the past. Lol, muslims don’t add to the collective knowledge? Guess you’ve never heard the world “algebra” before. It probably never even dawned on you that “algebra” is an Arabic word.
Ugh…I’m not even Muslim, or even a fan of Islam to be honest, and your statements are even pissing me off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age
“Many medieval Muslim thinkers pursued humanistic, rational and scientific discourses in their search for knowledge, meaning and values. A wide range of Islamic writings on love, poetry, history and philosophical theology show that medieval Islamic thought was open to the humanistic ideas of individualism, occasional secularism, skepticism and liberalism.[10][11]
Religious freedom, though society was still controlled under Islamic values, helped create cross-cultural networks by attracting Muslim, Christian and Jewish intellectuals and thereby helped spawn the greatest period of philosophical creativity in the Middle Ages from the 8th to 13th centuries.[6] Another reason the Islamic world flourished during this period was an early emphasis on freedom of speech, as summarized by al-Hashimi (a cousin of Caliph al-Ma’mun) in the following letter to one of the religious opponents he was attempting to convert through reason:[12]
“Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empary of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason, whereby God makes us responsible for our own rewards and punishments. Herein I have dealt justly with you and have given you full security and am ready to accept whatever decision Reason may give for me or against me. For “There is no compulsion in religion” (Qur’an 2:256) and I have only invited you to accept our faith willingly and of your own accord and have pointed out the hideousness of your present belief. Peace be upon you and the blessings of God!”
The earliest known treatises dealing with environmentalism and environmental science, especially pollution, were Arabic treatises written by al-Kindi, al-Razi, Ibn Al-Jazzar, al-Tamimi, al-Masihi, Avicenna, Ali ibn Ridwan, Abd-el-latif, and Ibn al-Nafis. Their works covered a number of subjects related to pollution such as air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination, municipal solid waste mishandling, and environmental impact assessments of certain localities.[13] Cordoba, al-Andalus also had the first waste containers and waste disposal facilities for litter collection.[14]”
Once again, stop confusing today’s radicalized flavor of Islam with the Islam of centuries ago. It’s like comparing today’s Christianity with the repressive Christianity of the Dark Ages. Speaking of which, everything you are saying about Islam could’ve been applied to Christianity during the Dark Ages of Europe. Look what happened to people who said earth goes around the sun. Heck even today there are Christians denying science and reason.
Anything that is not found in nature and brought about by human thinking is an invention. Agriculture was an invention. Metallurgy was an invention. Neither of these things existed in the world before Homo Sapiens. There were random edible plants distributed about which could only support small populations of wanderers, and the human mind created a process of organizing them and controlling them and making settlement possible. Sure iron, bronze and copper may have been found in nature, but creating alloys from them is a human invention. Of course now that you found out that black folks were doing these things without whitey showing us how, now they are no longer “inventions”, hahahhahaa…
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Another excellent post by tulio!!!!
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Once again, on point Tulio. 😀
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Why do white racists wake up in the morning hating Africans who have never done a damn thing to them? Such miserable people they must truly be at heart.
They are miserable, else why come on a site to preach and enforce your pseudo supremacy on others? In reality, they feel inferior, imputing the accomplishments of a few to a whole group, is indicative of this. I wonder if this guy(?) would have these kinds of conversations with a black person face to face? He would be scared witless! Probably not. He takes out his vitriol on blacks anonymously. I am starting to think this guy is mentally ill. I really am. He just doesn’t get the post’s theme. Most racists who take it to his extreme have some mental problems. It’s as if he can’t control himself!
Of course now that you found out that black folks were doing these things without whitey showing us how, now they are no longer “inventions”, hahahhahaa…
Exactly, he rattles off ‘facts’ and when such things as the invention of agriculture is brought up all of a sudden it is not an invention! He doesn’t seem to understand that inventions are the work of individuals and not groups. If they were, everyone would be an inventor, they are not. As you say, the vast majority of people have not ‘invented’ anything but do indeed enjoy the inventions of the few. This guy can’t seem to comprehend what the topic is about. However, he will never admit to this, he prefers to babble on about his ‘facts’, oblivious to what’s being commented on.
You know he’s full of it when he says that no-one cares who invented what originally, but goes on to harangue commentors for not providing a list of inventors. One must take into account what came before, you have to start somewhere. In effect, he appears to be arguing for argument’s sake. As there appears to be no purpose other than showing off his ‘intellect and knowledge’. In reality he probably feels inferior. People who are accomplished in various fields don’t feel the need to belittle other groups for whatever reason.
I can only imagine what you would think of me if you saw me walking down the street. I go to Flatbush every now and then, so maybe you have.
He’d probably cross the street!
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I wonder when no slappz is coming back for more punishment! I have to give him one thing for a troll, he is bloody persistant!
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Oh. He’ll be back. Probably at home now trying to think of more ways to derail the original post.
I am beginning to forget what the original post was in the first place. jeez. :-O
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herneith, you wrote:
“You know he’s full of it when he says that no-one cares who invented what originally, but goes on to harangue commentors for not providing a list of inventors.”
Whites don’t care about the race of inventors, scientists, engineers, mathematicians and discoverers. Whites care about the inventions, science, theories and discoveries.
But you care about the race aspect. You care about so much about it that you and many others subscribe to a rewritten version of African history.
However, your devotion to a past that never was makes today’s black world look bad.
If blacks in Africa were refining metal before everyone else, why did they stop? Is there even one steel mill in Africa today?
Muslims and Europeans went to Africa for natural resources. The resources were there, which means the indigenous people should have been able to derive a permanent stream of benefits from the exploitation of the resources.
But even today, with oil in West Africa, there is nothing but disaster. When Africans ran the Nigerian oil industry, the only refineries in the country were so badly mismanaged they ceased to function.
Only very recently has that changed. What changed? In short, Nigeria allowed western oil experts to return to Nigeria to repair and run the refineries.
Anyway, I am still wondering. Are there any successful black nations in the world today?
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Whites don’t care about the race of inventors, scientists, engineers, mathematicians and discoverers. Whites care about the inventions, science, theories and discoveries.
Yet you keep harping on whites invented this, whites invented that, blacks have invented nothing, you contradict yourself.
But you care about the race aspect. You care about so much about it that you and many others subscribe to a rewritten version of African history.
No, I don’t care about the ‘race aspect’. It is you who cares about it hence your tirades. You don’t even comprehend the post’s meaning! I have already said that I couldn’t care less who invented what. What part of that do you not understand? As for penning a ‘revisionist tome’ of history, I have not done so, nor do I subscribe to any school of thought when it comes to historical writings. I draw information from myriad sources and draw my conclusions accordingly.
.However, your devotion to a past that never was makes today’s black world look bad.
Whilst I am an amateur history buff, I am not devoted to it per se. You quite obviously are. I am devoted to family and friends. This is a hobby of mine. I will freely admit I do enjoy studying different historical periods, so what? That doesn’t translate to revising it. You, however feel a need to pontificate on your views of history, in particular, ‘white inventiveness’. I ask you again; by inference you posit that blacks are ‘stupid’ or intellectually inferior. If so why keep harping on the subject? Why waste your time? I can assure you, you are not convincing many here. Yet you carry on! It’s like you have some sort of compulsion!
Muslims and Europeans went to Africa for natural resources. The resources were there, which means the indigenous people should have been able to derive a permanent stream of benefits from the exploitation of the resources.
What’s that got to do with the argument at hand? For the millionth time. This post is not about inventions and who invented what. It is about an argument used as a last resort when people are debating/discussing topics of race. Why can’t you fathom this? Like I said, you seem to have some sort of compulsion present. You obviously dislike blacks unless they are athletes or musicians yet you seemingly dislike or more strongly, hate blacks who do-not fall into these categories! Anyhow I will give you this; You have provided some hilarity and have shown how this argument works. You’ve provided a service! Thanks for breaking the monotony between doing household chores!
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once again, Herneith, thanks for bringing back the reality to this person who refuses to live in it. Great comment.
No slappz. Time to hang it up man….your audience has left the building.
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herneith,
Humans have been measuring each other in many ways over many centuries. Thus, a large amount of data has accrued and it is telling.
Clearly humans have shown both individual and group traits.
Does our accumulated data tell us anything about differences between individuals or groups?
I think it does.
However, you think differences between groups translate into superiority or inferiority.
I happen to believe that blacks are better athletes than whites due to genes. A biological edge.
Does that mean whites are incapable of playing a decent game of basketball? No. But blacks are better.
Can whites box? Yes. But not as well as blacks.
Does this reality damage white’s images of themselves? No.
But when it comes to blacks and intellectual efforts, instead of an acknowledgement of human record, a debate about superiority/inferiority breaks out.
Can blacks learn physics? Yes. But few bother.
That’s the issue. Why is black academic achievement as low as it is — worldwide?
If life in Africa were not as miserable as it often is, the question would have minimal importance. But life is horrible for hundreds of millions of people in Africa. Simple problems go unsolved.
In Africa lack of clean water is the chief problem. But the white world has been able to provide itself with more than enough clean water for centuries.
On the other hand, every year the number of people who die from drinking unclean water in Africa is over 5 million.
FIVE MILLION. Staggering. It would be one thing if the solution to the problem did not exist. But it does exist. Is this death toll a sign of intelligence?
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HAHaha, hilarious, back to cleaning!!!!
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Oh, wow. He’s still at it? He must have no life then.
Alrighty, now back to your regularly scheduled programming. lol! 😀
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LOL Leigh204 😀
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all he can do is talk about how terrible Africa is and how they lack the simplest most basic necessities. like clean drinking water, etc. but is he offering any kind of solutions? since he is part of the GREAT WHITE INVENTORS. is he trying to think of something to possibly help instead of sitting on his duff talking about how terrible that continent is and its inhabitants are?… NO because he is incapable of such thoughts…jeez
i am now done with him too… what a waste of my days before Christmas reading his mess. HAHAHAAH
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No_slappz said:
What the hell do you mean *if*, it’s beyond dispute that metallurgy existed in pre-colonial West Africa and that it had left the neolithic era. Are you seriously disputing that??
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He does not dispute it, he merely dismisses it. He chooses which facts he wishes to believe in. It is part of how his racist delusion works.
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Poverty. Find me one poor country that is a bastion of Nobel Prize winners. You have to reach a certain level affluence before you have free time for intellectual pursuits. Look at Maslow’s heirarchy of needs. It’s hard to concentrate on long-term goals like getting a PhD when you don’t where your next meal is coming from.
These conditions are widespread in Africa, but not unique to Africa. You’ll see the same thing in Bolivia, Cambodia, the bush of Australia or Bangladesh and none of these people are black. Also, I get kind of tired of people talking about Africa like it’s a country rather than a continent with widely varying situations. Not everybody in Africa is starving or infected with AIDS. People in Namibia and Botswana are eating just fine for example. Botswana has a per capita income of $14,000, bringing it to about the level of a middle-income nation. Whereas in Mali, income is extremely low. Gabon is another middle income country with an expanding economy. AIDS may be sky high in S. Africa, but in Senegal it’s not higher than it is in the western world. Somalia is extremely dangerous, but Ghana is safe and friendly to tourists. While white nationalists like to keep harping on the murder rate in S. Africa, you never hear them mention that Senegal’s murder rate is lower than anywhere in Europe. It’s only good to point out the bad.
Water was clean in Africa prior to colonialism for the simple fact that there were no pollutants. I’ve never read reports of European explorers that mentioned African dying in mass from diseases and dirty water. Whites superimposed a western culture on Africa through colonialism that simply wasn’t natural to them. It’s no different than us trying to impose democracy on Afghanistan and thinking it’s going to hold up when that region has no history of such thing and nor do the values of that region support western style law and economy. It’s no different with Africa. The mess you see in Africa is the result of imposing an alien culture with an entirely different set of values and world view onto one that is radically different. If stable, advanced societies evolved in Africa, it would be best if they had come from within, not imposed from the outside. It’s the same reason why Native Americans are living in misery and alcoholism in reservations instead instead of being the proud people they once were. Just a mere shadow of themselves unable to mesh with the western system. It doesn’t work for them.
Like I said, this wasn’t a problem before colonialism. And once again, the problem of cholera infected water can be found worldwide, in every case, it’s in a country that was a former colony that had no such problems prior. Coincidence?
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No Slappz:
On genes and history:
You take the way the world is now and read it back into people’s genes. You say blacks are the best boxers, that it is in their genes, but would you have said that before Joe Louis, in the 1930s?
Back in Roman times Cicero thought the British were naturally lacking in intelligence.
By your line of reasoning not only would he be right – Britain was a backwards corner of the world then (and remained so for over a thousand years) – but you would have said it was in their genes. Which means the British Empire – and America as we know it – would have never been.
You forget that you live at only one point in history, that other points in history were different.
If our fates were written in our genes, then little in the world would change. Anglos would have been on top not only since the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 but for most of history. Instead for most of history they were backwards. Before 1500 they were nothing compared to the Chinese, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Arabs, the Turks, the Egyptians or even the Mali Empire at their height.
No one in his right mind in 1500 would have thought that some day English would become a world language, a respected language of learning, science and business. If you said that in 1500 people would have thought you had too much to drink.
The apparent differences between the races are produced by accidents of history, not by genes. Mankind spread across the world too fast, on a biological or evolutionary time scale, for there to be the kind of profound differences between the races that you are talking about.
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No Slappz:
On Africa being screwed up:
1. It is hardly the basket case that you see on American television. If it were, it would not be able to support a billion people. Africa is not wall-to-wall with unwashed children.
2. Africa is screwed up mainly due to colonialism and its after effects. I agree with Tulio on that, though I think it has more to do with power and less to do with culture. In the late 1900s all the white rulers were thrown out of power, even in South Africa, but the place is still largely run for the benefit of whites and now, increasingly, the Chinese. These people do not care about drinking water or anything like that: they just want Africa’s natural wealth at cut rates. It suits them just fine that Africa is so divided and poor and run by people who take bribes.
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No Slappz:
I will have to do a post on Shell Oil and Nigeria, but in the meantime I did do one on Gabon. As Africa goes it is a “success” story, but it shows you the degree to which outsiders still run the place despite independence:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/gabon/
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Abagond,
Gabon IS another nightmare state.
Lifespan of a child born there today: 53 years
Huge AIDS problem
Median age: 18. Thus Gabon is a nation of children, though there are only 1.5 million people in the country.
Stunningly high infant mortality rate. 52 per thousand live births. That’s catastrophic.
The net migration rate is -3.48, one of the highest in the world and a clear statement that people are desperate to get out of Gabon.
Major problems with water-borne diseases.
High illiteracy rate.
Economy is depedent on oil exports. But it also exports timber and manganese. However, nothing is manufactured in Gabon.
The per-capita GDP is high. But the reality is this: Those in charge of the country take it all and the vast majority of Gabonese have nothing. An example of misleading with statistics.
Gabon shares some characteristics with Norway. Norway exports 90% of its oil. but it has used the money to finance an advanced state that provides Norwegians one of the highest standards of living in the world.
Given the natural resource wealth of Gabon and other African nations, we should see the emergence of similarly advanced nations in Africa. But no, that has not happened.
Why? African nations are almost always ruled by despotic thugs who steal everything possible and leave the country to the dogs.
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abagond, you wrote:
“It (Africa) is hardly the basket case that you see on American television.”
Since the nations of Africa are presented in every possible light on TV, your statement about Africa on TV has no meaning.
However, the continent is a nightmare.
You wrote:
“If it were, it would not be able to support a billion people. Africa is not wall-to-wall with unwashed children.”
The continent is a mess due to the fact that Africans cannot establish governments that function for the benefit of the people. Thus, in fact, it is true that unwashed children are a huge percentage of the population.
That is a particularly bad sign. Every black African nation has a stunningly low median age. In many countries the median age is about 18, which means that most of the people in Africa are children. Mostly uneducated children who have no hope of becoming educated prosperous adults. Children leading children who are having more children.
Meanwhile, subsistence farming accounts for much of the employment on the continent, and for most people, the 20th Century has NOT arrived.
Like I have said, clean water is a problem. It is a problem because African leaders do not spend the relatively small amount of money it takes to purify drinking water.
Yes, other countries have water problems. Bolivia, as you mentioned. In other words, if you want to know if a country is run by a moronic thug, check the water supply.
Bad water = bad government. Very simple.
What’s the solution? Kill the dictators. Robert Mugabe must die, and the sooner the better. Unfortunately, since blacks have shown total incompetence in government, there is no reason to think a house-cleaning will lift black African nations from their benighted state.
It would take a benevolent dictatorship. The closest example is Singapore. Not that any nation in Africa is likely to duplicate or approximate the experience of Singapore.
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No Slappz:
Good point about the Gabon stats, but you missed one of the main points of the Gabon post: that the French still run the place, that it is the French and the Chinese who mainly profit from its natural wealth, not the people who live there. On paper Gabon is free and independent and under black rule, but in practice it is still a colony.
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abagond, your statements go from the ridiculous to the absurd. You wrote:
“In the late 1900s all the white rulers were thrown out of power, even in South Africa, but the place is still largely run for the benefit of whites and now, increasingly, the Chinese.”
Apparently you are claiming the existing governments of African nations do not run the countries. Thus, Robert Mugabe is NOT the cause of the complete economic collapse of Zimbabwe. The real cause comes from outside. The “foreigners.” The whites. The asians.
You get even nuttier with your next claim:
“These people do not care about drinking water or anything like that: they just want Africa’s natural wealth at cut rates.”
China does not care about the drinking water in America either. Nor does it care about the drinking water in Europe. Although China might care if it can service the water industries in America and Europe. But otherwise, providing clean water in America, Europe or the nations of Africa is the problem of the local government. Not China.
The Chinese and all others who import stuff from Africa want the stuff. Like I said, it’s all about trade. Why would China assume the role that government is meant to play? Trading means getting stuff you want in exchange for stuff you have.
Nigeria and Gabon have oil. The oil is sold at world market prices and then the corrupt leaders of Nigeria and Gabon steal as much of the revenue as they can carry off.
Meanwhile, Nigeria is incapable of producing people who can run the oil industry. So, experts from other nations now handle the job. These conditions and realities are the problems the local governments are expected to solve. but they do not.
Your greatest piece of nuttiness:
“It suits them just fine that Africa is so divided and poor and run by people who take bribes.”
If African nations were prosperous, honest and progressive, all other nations would benefit. However, as long as African nations are poor and corrupt, outside investment will remain limited.
Exxon Mobil will not commit a lot of capital in countries with thug governments llikely to seize their property, which has happened even though the company has been cautious.
Like I said, there were three refineries in Nigeria — built and owned by non-Nigerian companies. Eventually Nigeria seized them. But, due to the usual African incompetence, the refineries ceased to function and they were closed.
But somehow, it dawned on the morons running Nigeria that it was better to have working refineries rather than non-working refineries and competent operators were allowed to return. I believe all the refineries now operate as joint ventures between the Nigerian government and some oil companies.
But the whole world would benefit if Nigeria were to become like Norway, which exports 90% of its oil production and spends the money wisely.
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abagond, there is a serious flaw in all your reasoning. The following is a good example:
“Back in Roman times Cicero thought the British were naturally lacking in intelligence.”
You give the OPINION of one man, who lived in an era when the known world was a tiny fraction of the whole, you give his opinion from 2000 years ago as though it carries more weight than the mountain of data that has been collected in the 2000 years since he offered his opinion and prediction.
You wrote:
“By your line of reasoning not only would he be right – Britain was a backwards corner of the world then (and remained so for over a thousand years) – but you would have said it was in their genes. Which means the British Empire – and America as we know it – would have never been.”
Wrong. The fact that humans had made their way from where they started to the land that became known as Great Britain shows the earliest Anglos and Celts were explorers.
No one alive at the time of Cicero could have made an accurate prediction about the future of humanity. But, by creating and developing concepts of math, science and government, the Greeks and Romans had an effect on white culture that began to show its extraordinary value when it caused whites to shake off religious dogma and demand — take — freedom.
As whites freed themselves from the religious straitjacket, the pace of change in the world increased, getting up to a roar a couple of hundred years ago. Today, the leading edge of the world is advancing hourly, with the most stunning advances coming in mobile communications.
In other words, it is almost impossible to escape the onslaught on knowledge. The whole world — and its entire history — is visible and available to anyone with a computer.
However, there are huge segments of the world’s population that remain either willfully ignorant, or deprived of modern reality by repressive governments.
What do people in North Korea know about the rest of the world? Not enough. But the two largest pools of ignorance on the planet are found in the muslim world and in Africa.
As for the arrival of Joe Louis and my opinion of the superiority of black boxers, actually, in my view, it was Jack Johnson who proved the point.
But, the real isssue is about how people attain or approach their potential when they live in FREE Societies.
Johnson and Louis may have lived in a Jim Crow America, but Jim Crow laws were not enough to smother the talent both were able to cultivate as Americans. If they had been born in Africa, they would have lived and died anonymously.
Since all doors to blacks have been wide open for 45 years we have seen the effects. The records speak for themselves. Blacks have risen to the top of every form of athletics in which they compete. Next I expect to see blacks winning Olympic gold medals for swimming.
But when it comes to academics, the results are unimpressive. Again, the results speak for themselves.
The critics blame “the schools”, which is another way of blaming whites. Of course if for some perverse reason whites were preventing blacks from learning, we would know because academically accomplished blacks would come from African nations and show, by their existence, that the American education system itself is the problem.
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Aba wrote:
Good point about the Gabon stats, but you missed one of the main point of the Gabon post: that the French still run the place.
No Slops is writing about African nations as if Europe has never ruled them. As if they don’t suffer from the self-serving, resource-grabbing rape of colomialism, and now neocolonialism. China is currently stepping up to take part. Generally, emiseration is worst where extractable resources are greatest. As for leaders, toadies of Western elite interests get inserted into “power,” unless they get the strange notion in their heads and/or hearts that Africa is for Africans, in which case they get removed by Western elites (a la Saddam, and the recent cases of Haiti and Honduras). And what is the Number One instrument of rapacious elite interests? The United States’ federal government.
I’m amazed at the persistence of hardcore white supremacists like No Slops. They’ll rarely admit in mixed company that that’s what they are. Instead, they just keep presenting spurious, blinkered “evidence,” as if black “inferiority” just speaks for itself. And it’s always them Negroes that most get to these people.
But it’s not really that that gets to them, is it? Black people are a shibboleth for them, a dark, detested substitute for something else inside themselves that they can’t or won’t acknowledge for what it really is.
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Btw, I’m seeing this boxing argument keep being brought up. Blacks don’t seem to be dominating in fight sports like they used to. It seems like Russian and Brazilian guys are the best fighters these days, if you’re also including MMA. That said, I still think Mike Tyson in his prime could’ve beat anyone out there today.
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How naive. About half the world’s 7 billion people live on less than $2.50 a day. Buying a computer to them would be like us trying to buy a Ferrari Enzo. Access to knowledge and education on this planet is VERY limited. It might seem widely available because you were luckily enough to be born in an advanced country so that’s all you know, but if you were born in rural Burma, you’d find your options for learning and bettering yourself to be extremely limited. There is virtually no social mobility in 3rd world countries. You are either born into wealth through luck or you are born into the majority of impoverished people and will remain stuck there for life.
The thing is, the west was once the same way. Ignorance prevailed for the unwashed masses, wealth and knowledge were extremely concentrated and there was no social mobility. Even as late as the 1800s, life in America wasn’t much different than it would be Latin America today. People got little or no education because their parents needed to put the kids to work. There were no social services so people had large families as their security, there was a corrupt upper class(The Gilded Age) that exploited the unwashed poor. A much greater percentage of the population depended on subsistence farming. Educational embetterment was extremely limited if not non-existent for anyone but the elite. The west came out of this period before others and you will eventually see it in the 3rd world at some point.
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No Slappz said:
“The critics blame “the schools”, which is another way of blaming whites. Of course if for some perverse reason whites were preventing blacks from learning, we would know because academically accomplished blacks would come from African nations and show, by their existence, that the American education system itself is the problem.”
Right: West Indians who come to America show that the poor performance of Black Americans in education has nothing to do with being black by race and everything to do with how racist America is, how screwed up the schools are that most blacks are forced to go to.
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No Slappz said:
“No one alive at the time of Cicero could have made an accurate prediction about the future of humanity.”
Right, and neither can you. That is just my point.
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I did a lengthy post with some interesting links on another forum on the topic of black performance in schools, I can’t find it right now though or I’d repost it here. But in brief, I was compiling some articles and studies on the success of independently run private and/or charter schools with majority black students and a dedicated black staff. The kids at these schools were performing very well. Especially on written/verbal skills.
I think a large part of the underperformance in black schools really is schools that just don’t work well for black kids. Studies show that vouchers show improved results for black kids, yet not non-black kids. So that tells you something right there. We probably have a lot teachers that just don’t care, that have low expectations and low standards. Not to mention kids that come from bad backgrounds with low parental involvement in education. When these same kids are sent to private or charter schools that show genuine care about them and hold them to high standards, and make take themselves seriously, the improvement is marked. If I can find that post I made, I’ll repost the links I came across that broke this down in detail with stats and numbers.
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tulio wrote,
Even as late as the 1800s . . . there was a corrupt upper class(The Gilded Age) that exploited the unwashed poor.
And there’s not today? LOL!
Re Aba’s thoroughly debunking points on education, there’s this too:
Africans are the most educated immigrant population in the United States, with 49% holding college degrees—a larger percentage than Asian immigrants, American-born whites, and American born blacks. 86.4% hold high school degrees or more, while only 78.9% of the “model minority” Asian immigrants do. Children of African immigrants also go on to achieve higher levels of education as compared with the rest of the population.
Doesn’t seem possible if blacks were as dumb as No Slops thinks they are. I’m sure he’ll come up with some deluded effort to explain it away, though.
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Tulio:
Please do. That would be wonderful.
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Thanks, SUsan.
To pick up on whast she said: According to No Slappz’s thinking, West Indians and black Africans who come to America should do WORSE than Black Americans since they are in general blacker. Instead they do way better. A huge reason is that they did not have to go to the public schools that most Americans blacks had to go to.
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@Linda
yes I have read about how African Immigrants are slowly becoming the new model minority in America.
Those quadruplets who all got accepted into yale university mother is nigerian
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To be fair though, I think that African immigration is highly selective. Very few Africans are granted visas or residency in the U.S. It’s usually the most educated that are able to come in, so in the case of immigrants from Africa, we may be skimming from the very cream of the crop so to speak and only letting the most well-off to move here. Whereas with Mexicans for example, they can either just walk across the border illegally, or get in via family reunification if they already have family here. The U.S., even though we let in many immigrants is still fairly tough to get in for most people unless you already have connections here or you have education and affluence already in your home country.
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@Abagond and Linda:
I think Abagond’s “Thanks Susan” was meant to be “Thanks Linda” regarding Linda’s comments on education .
Logically it seems obvious that there are likely several factors that might contribute to poor school performance in blacks in America. I have to question the motives and goals of those who automatically conclude that laziness or inherent inferiority are the cause, and refuse to be open to all the other factors that are at work.
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abagond, I wrote:
““No one alive at the time of Cicero could have made an accurate prediction about the future of humanity.”
You responded:
“Right, and neither can you. That is just my point.”
You are confused by the difference between a person making a PREDICTION 2000 years ago, when no one knew much of anything about the world, with a person today, who offers the now well documented history of the world as the explanation for why things are the way they are today.
I have not predicted continuing failure for blacks. In fact, due to the social mobility that exists in democracies, much has improved for blacks.
Today black millionaires appear in the form of young men who sign big sports contracts. Such sudden black wealth was unimaginable a couple of generations ago.
We now have an historical record that accurately shows who has done what over the ages. You want to quibble about racial mixing in the Nile Valley a couple of thousand years ago, thus mooting the issue of precisely who did what way back when.
But after those early years when there was virtually no written record, humans began keeping track. We know who has done what for a long long time.
Moreover, you confuse group behavior with individual characteristics.
Blacks have proven they are good athletes as individuals. But that is not the same as coordinating that athletic skill in the form of a military.
However, with respect to the future of blacks, I predict more of the same in Africa. Nothing much is changing for the better. I predict better times for blacks who live in mostly white democracies.
However, the social pathologies that afflict blacks far more than whites are not disappearing. Fatherlessness, illegitimacy, crime, violence, substance abuse and low academic achievement will continue to plague blacks in the US and other leading nations.
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Linda, you wrote:
“No Slops is writing about African nations as if Europe has never ruled them. As if they don’t suffer from the self-serving, resource-grabbing rape of colomialism, and now neocolonialism. China is currently stepping up to take part. Generally, emiseration is worst where extractable resources are greatest.”
Linda, you and your fellow black-victimization believers make only one case with your arguments:
You all claim that once a black society anywhere on Earth has met with a white society, irreversible damage is done and every successive generation of blacks is impaired as though some defective gene had been implanted in them.
The subtext of this argument is plainly anti-black. A clear decaration that blacks cannot withstand the effects of contact with the white world.
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Susan is right: I meant to thank Linda.
Thanks, Susan.
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abagond, you wrote:
“According to No Slappz’s thinking, West Indians and black Africans who come to America should do WORSE than Black Americans since they are in general blacker.”
I have no idea how you concluded the degree of blackness affects education. But, you wrote it.
You wrote:
“Instead they do way better. A huge reason is that they did not have to go to the public schools that most Americans blacks had to go to.”
Oh. The education systems in the West Indies were created by the English and Europeans. The same goes for education systems in black Africa.
In muslim Africa, education is dominated by Islam, which means nothing important is learned.
Meanwhile, there is a substantial underclass of blacks in the West Indies. Haiti is in the news today. Aside from its status as a national disaster, it is now claimed that 225,000 children in the country are actual slaves.
Bottom line, the percentage of blacks achieving some notable level of education in the West Indies, then coming to the US is smaller than the percentage of blacks who reach notable levels attending school here in the US.
Moreover, black colleges in other countries are grade schools compared with US colleges. There are a lot of West Indians here in Brooklyn. They run for public office and tout their West Indian educations. However, when they circulate their campaign literature, it always contains many misspellings, terrible grammar and evidence of ridiculously poor thinking. Moreover, they all seem to be closet communists.
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No_slapps, what exactly is your agenda here, I’m just curious. Is there something you’re trying to tell us? It’s clear you don’t care too much for black people for one reason or another, but why brings you to forum? Do you go to Native American forums to tell them how few Native American nobel prize winners there? Do you do this with all ethnic groups, or just blacks? What is your issue with blacks?
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@tulio:
I don’t even bother to read what he, I’m certain no_slappz is a he, has posted. It’s becoming tiresome.
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No Slappz said:
“Moreover, black colleges in other countries are grade schools compared with US colleges. There are a lot of West Indians here in Brooklyn. They run for public office and tout their West Indian educations. However, when they circulate their campaign literature, it always contains many misspellings, terrible grammar and evidence of ridiculously poor thinking. Moreover, they all seem to be closet communists.”
Well, you are a good speller, I will give you that. Maybe one of the best who has appeared on this blog. But you are a shockingly poor reader and to say you have “ridiculously poor thinking” would be a kind way of putting it.
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@ Leigh.. You took the words right out of my typing fingers. I have gotten to the point where i don’t even read what no slappz or no slops as his new name is on here by some (LOL) writes. I am so OVER him and his endless and i mean endless writing…
Cos believe me, Santa will have come, dropped his gifts all over creation, and gone and no slappz will still be killing us all by degrees with his endless comments.
🙂
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@AO:
no_slappz has a new name? No slops, huh? lol! I like it! I like it a lot! 😀
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tulio, you asked:
“No_slapps, what exactly is your agenda here, I’m just curious.”
This site, which I found because abagond commented on something I wrote on another site, is similar to sites run by white supremacists, anti-Semites and others with an agenda based on falsity and victimization.
The central theme of sites like this one is: It’s not us. It’s them.
The Other Group is always the cause and source of all the misery and misfortune afflicting the group that swims in its self-described victimization.
By the way, someone mentioned the black quadruplets who were recently accepted by Yale. They are seniors at Danbury High School, Danbury, CT, a city best known for its prison.
Based on the claims from people at this site that blacks are stuck attending bad schools and therefore are unable to learn much, how did these four black students get into Yale?
If I accept the most popular theory on this site — that schools attended by blacks are no good — then the four siblings must have gotten into Yale because they were black, rather than because they were good students.
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abagond, there is a serious flaw in all your reasoning. The following is a good example:
“Back in Roman times Cicero thought the British were naturally lacking in intelligence.”
You give the OPINION of one man, who lived in an era when the known world was a tiny fraction of the whole, you give his opinion from 2000 years ago as though it carries more weight than the mountain of data that has been collected in the 2000 years since he offered his opinion and prediction.
No, there is not a serious flaw in his thinking. However there is in yours. This post is about the ‘white inventor’ argument which is used as an argument of last resort when discussion/debate arises in regards to race. It is not about who invented what, who is ‘dumber’ than who etc. Yet you go off on tirades about Africa when America is being discussed for instance. You are obsessed! Like I wrote before, you don’t even like blacks unless they are ‘boxers’ or athletes. Well I am a lousy athlete, unless you consider shopping to be a sport. Am I an anomaly? By your reasoning I may be. As for Cicero, he was one of the most admired men of his time and people listened to what he said and read what he wrote. You are doing exactly what he does, giving your opinion, however you do not have the attributes that Cicero had. Besides which, opinions are like anuses, everyone has one! People still read Cicero, so some of what he says is still pertinent. No, what you are saying about blacks lack of intellect is basically what Cicero said 2000 years ago about people in Britain. Julius Caesar said similar things about the people in Gaul being savages, at least the ones who didn’t take on Roman traits. Hence the comparison. I doubt anyone will be reading anything you say 2000 years hence.
No one alive at the time of Cicero could have made an accurate prediction about the future of humanity.
They can’t now regardless of their vaunted knowledge. If you can let me know. I am going to Bingo tomorrow night and if I am not going to win, I won’t go. Can you predict this for me? I will give you ten percents of my haul if you do. I am also purchasing lottery tickets, if you can predict the numbers, it would be greatly appreciated!
As whites freed themselves from the religious straitjacket, the pace of change in the world increased, getting up to a roar a couple of hundred years ago.
Now it’s religion or lack thereof that has spurred ‘white inventiveness’? You are all over the map!
However, there are huge segments of the world’s population that remain either willfully ignorant, or deprived of modern reality by repressive governments.
If all these people were good athletes, maybe the countries would be ‘run’ better! To bad Joe Louis and Jack Johnson weren’t around today! They could be sent to these countries to run them as they were excellent boxers! As for willful ignorance permeating the globe, count yourself in!
The records speak for themselves. Blacks have risen to the top of every form of athletics in which they compete.
Sheer and utter nonsense! But I better shut up as any response to you triggers your tirades. I can’t resist! HELP! SLAPPZ’S COMPULSIONS ARE RUBBING OFF ON ME! Maybe the athletes can help me. ARRGH!
Of course if for some perverse reason whites were preventing blacks from learning, we would know because academically accomplished blacks would come from African nations and show, by their existence, that the American education system itself is the problem.
Send Hank Aaron to run the school systems, he was one of the best athletes! Maybe he’ll improve it!
What is your issue with blacks?
That is the million dollar question which he refuses to answer! He has been asked this throughout this post constantly. He is obsessed albeit in a hilarious manner! He can’t stop himself!
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Herneith said:
“No, what you are saying about blacks lack of intellect is basically what Cicero said 2000 years ago about people in Britain… Hence the comparison. “
See that, No Slappz, she got just what I meant, unlike you. The stuff you were saying about Africa reminded me of what Cicero said about Britain. And it is just as wrong for just the same reasons. Just because Britain was backwards then did not mean it would last forever. Because it had nothing to do with genes, but more with their distance from Egypt.
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Leigh said:
“I don’t even bother to read what he, I’m certain no_slappz is a he, has posted. It’s becoming tiresome.”
I try to ignore him but it is like a train wreck: I cannot NOT look.
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@abagond:
Well, that’s a good analogy…trainwreck. You just know there is massive carnage underneath the twisted wreckage of the postings that is no_slappz. 🙂
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@ Leigh. Well i Slappz case he is a trainwreck, burning building and 5 car pile up all rolled into one. 😉
lol
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LOL.
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herneith, you wrote:
“No, there is not a serious flaw in his thinking. However there is in yours. This post is about the ‘white inventor’ argument which is used as an argument of last resort when discussion/debate arises in regards to race.”
It is an incontestable fact that whites and asians have invented and discovered far more than blacks. Even if we consider all of human history — and view things on your terms — blacks have invented and disovered almost nothing.
Anyway, reasonable debates depend on data. Historical data. It is 2009 and we have centuries of data. The record books have been accurately maintained.
Thus, when it comes to knowing which societies, groups and races are advancing — and why they are advancing — we have an answer. And the answer is based on fact. Not guesswork.
You wrote:
“It is not about who invented what, who is ‘dumber’ than who etc.”
As always, the records speak for themselves.
Meanwhile, how do YOU define intelligence?
You wrote:
“As for Cicero, he was one of the most admired men of his time and people listened to what he said and read what he wrote.”
He said a lot of things, including Birds of a Feather Stick Together. Many of his observations about human nature have held true over the last 20 centuries. Some, including his comment about a certain group of people, were erroneous. In other words, he was working with bad data. In fact, he had no data.
You wrote:
“You are doing exactly what he does, giving your opinion, however you do not have the attributes that Cicero had.”
You should learn the difference between Inductive Reasoning and Deductive Reasoning.
Knowledge was limited 2,000 years ago. Cicero knew nothing about North and South America, or the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. For all he knew, the human tribes of North and South America were driving cars and flying airplanes while he was walking around Rome. Of course he did not know the other half of the world existed. Thus, he was working without sufficient data.
Anyway, limited observations about a small group of people living is a small region tell you only about their specific experience. Cicero was in no position to understand or recognize the factors that would cause the Anglos and Celts to become what they became.
Today, we are much better informed.
You wrote:
“People still read Cicero, so some of what he says is still pertinent.”
Like I said, some of his work is still valid and those who read it will remark that he was a brilliant observer of man. But, also an observer who makes an occasional mistake.
You wrote:
“No, what you are saying about blacks lack of intellect is basically what Cicero said 2000 years ago about people in Britain.”
Wrong. You have no idea WHY Cicero said anything he said. But you are jumping back and forth between claiming he was one of history’s brightest lights and a nitwit who could not foresee the rise of Great Britain, a development that occurred centuries and centuries after Cicero died.
By the way, where is the black Cicero? The black Plato? The black Homer?
You wrote:
“Julius Caesar said similar things about the people in Gaul being savages, at least the ones who didn’t take on Roman traits. Hence the comparison. I doubt anyone will be reading anything you say 2000 years hence.”
Caesar was a conquerer. Not an anthropologist. Thus, his comments about human nature mean nothing.
I wrote:
“No one alive at the time of Cicero could have made an accurate prediction about the future of humanity.”
You responded:
“They can’t now regardless of their vaunted knowledge. If you can let me know.”
In fact, we can. The nations of the world will continue along their current paths unless disturbed by a major force.
Perhaps Iraq will become a capitalist democracy. The Iranian government might collapse as a result of the influence of neighboring Iraq. It too has the possibility of evolving into a capitalist democracy.
However, if Iran obtains a nuclear weapon, it will fire that weapon at Israel. Israel will respond with a nuclear barrage and destroy Tehran. The strike and counterstrike would bring almost all nine members of the world’s nuclear club into a confrontation that would most likely lead to big problems for the muslim nations.
You wrote:
“I am going to Bingo tomorrow night and if I am not going to win, I won’t go. Can you predict this for me? I will give you ten percents of my haul if you do. I am also purchasing lottery tickets, if you can predict the numbers, it would be greatly appreciated!”
Here’s my prediction. If you continue to gamble — bingo and lottery — over the duration of your life, you will lose about 20% more than you win. Thus, over time, you will be a net loser.
Based on your gambling statements, it is clear you do not know the difference between Chance outcomes for specific events and the concept of Probability over time.
Consider the topic of life-spans. The average life-span of a person born today in the US is about 80. On the other hand, the average life-span of a person born today in almost all countries in Africa is about 50.
The predictions are based on extensive historical data and the factors that caused the historical figures to be what they are.
If African governments embrace basic public health policies that include cleaning the water, then African life spans will increase rapidly. As we know, blacks living in the US today can expect to live as long as whites — 75+ years. But there is no sign of change in most African nations. As I have said, every YEAR about 5 MILLION Africans die from diseases transmitted by dirty water.
I wrote:
“As whites freed themselves from the religious straitjacket, the pace of change in the world increased, getting up to a roar a couple of hundred years ago.”
You responded:
“Now it’s religion or lack thereof that has spurred ‘white inventiveness’? You are all over the map!”
All over the map? Not at all. We know what it takes for creativity and inventiveness to grow. The Ancient Greeks understood too. But organized religion mixed with government smothered the creative impulse in rituals that led ultimately to subservience.
I wrote:
“However, there are huge segments of the world’s population that remain either willfully ignorant, or deprived of modern reality by repressive governments.”
You responded:
“If all these people were good athletes, maybe the countries would be ‘run’ better! To bad Joe Louis and Jack Johnson weren’t around today! They could be sent to these countries to run them as they were excellent boxers! As for willful ignorance permeating the globe, count yourself in!”
Apparently the best you can do is to toss off snide comments that are so lame they lack even a hint of comic inventiveness.
Again, your rejection of the White Inventor Argument boils down to your ASSERTION that it is flawed. But if it were flawed, the evidence of the flaws — or its complete falseness — would appear in the form of examples of blacks accomplishing some of the same feats as whites and asians.
As I have stated, too much religion is bad for general creativity and inventiveness. However, the religions themselves are human creations. The Bible and the Koran were both the products of whites. The primary books of Eastern religions were were compiled by asians. Where are the books on the religions of Africa?
Language is a powerful force. Though muslims themselves were not inventive, they did exploit the inventions and discoveries of the people they conquered. As a method of expanding their influence, conquering muslims FORCED their new subjects to learn Arabic. The Ottoman Empire benefited hugely from the widespread use of Arabic.
How many languages are/were spoken in Africa? The language barrier stops the flow of knowledge. As the Tower of Babel story shows, the problem of communication has been recognized for a long time.
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A long winded speech on something totally irrelevant to the topic! Typical no_slappz!
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I am done talking to him. He believes what he wants to believe. It is hard to have an intelligent conversation with him.
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That is probably the best thing all of us can do in the case of No Slappz. Just ignore him and not respond to any of his comments. He may soon get tired of commenting to no one who is listening. Or he may go on until his heart stops beating and his fingers fall off. Either way I am done with reading his silliness.
😀
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Here’s my prediction. If you continue to gamble — bingo and lottery — over the duration of your life, you will lose about 20% more than you win. Thus, over time, you will be a net loser.”
This is the most pertinent thing you’ve written. Thanks for the advice. I haven’t gone to Bingo in about ten years. Thank you for deterring me and saving me from losing 20%!
Based on your gambling statements, it is clear you do not know the difference between Chance outcomes for specific events and the concept of Probability over time.
Again, thanks for telling me. I will not longer spend ten bucks on the lottery when the jackpot is over 30 million(I’ve got a big family, ten or so millions will only go so far).
Apparently the best you can do is to toss off snide comments that are so lame they lack even a hint of comic inventiveness.
I thought it was hilarious!
As the Tower of Babel story shows, the problem of communication has been recognized for a long time
An apt description in your case as you are an expert on babbling. Over and out!
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Oh how I tire of these inane arguments!
Pointing to the glories or failings of a small number of people and drawing conclusions about an entire class or race can rarely be justified.
Let me put it bluntly. There is no such thing as white mathematics, black mathematics, Asian mathematics, feminist mathematics or oppressed people mathematics there is simply mathematics. The same can be said for any real subject. In fact this is how we determine if something is real and not pseudo new/old/mystic/religous bullshit.
If the color or culture of the source matters the idea is probably inherently trivial and will soon find itself flushed down the toilet of history.
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[…] […]
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was a while since i wrote here, i just wonder, have we white invented ANYTHING, and, if so, has it been good or bad for humankind??
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Fish and Chips, prophylactics, cheddar cheese, haggis, hamburgers, pizza, MacDonald’s, Kentucky Fried Upchuck, various colon clogging foods, other cholesterol enhanced cuisines, Uggs, stilettos, acne inducing cosmetics, hair destroying products….. Depends on your health as to whether or not they are good or bad!
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so..that`s all??..no medicines..no vaccines..no technology..only Junk Food??..
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another question..who qualifies as white??
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who qualifies as white??
Whatever is the most expeditious!
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care to explain??
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Not particularly. This post is about a tactic used to divert debates, conversations etc, on racism, an argument of last resort if you will. What this post is not about is who invented what. Caphiche? ‘The White inventor Argument’ is just a name for a diversionary type of argument. There are many such arguments whose names are metaphorical as opposed to being literal in meaning. Personally i couldn’t give a d@mn as to who invented what. I say this as I type this on my state of the art computer.
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i understand..
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The bottom line is this (to quote Winston Churchill): “History is written by the victors.”
For the most part, White people run the planet (although Asian people may be overtaking them now). Therefore, they also control communications, which includes media (brainwashing of adults) and education (brainwashing of children).
And since money is the most important thing to White people, only endeavors that contribute to making money for rich White people will be considered to be “advances” or “inventions,” whether or not those inventions benefit other groups or whether or not these inventions hasten the demise of the planet on which we all live.
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Abagond: “West Indians who come to America show that the poor performance of Black Americans in education has nothing to do with being black by race and everything to do with how racist America is, how screwed up the schools are that most blacks are forced to go to.”
On behalf of my (obviously, West Indian) parents, I hug you.
“A huge reason is that they did not have to go to the public schools that most Americans blacks had to go to.” My dad really doesn’t like the way the schools are run in America. He says that a lot of the teachers don’t encourage the kids to try, and that we’re not studious enough. From what the school he went to sounds like, I can agree.
But about the post: It’s just sad what people resort to when they’re desparate. But there are really some whites out there that believe that non-whites owe them something, because a small group of people has made our lives easy. And then when you say “So?”, they become outraged, because you have the nerve to disregard this in the face of racism and not kowtow to them. (Angry White Dude, anyone?)
Because of this, I propose that we bring no_slappz/slops back here, just for the purpose of ignoring him. Admit it: the idea is ludicrous but kinda fun once you think about it.
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Imagine that there was a White guy who lived in a little ranch house in some unnamed country.
One day he paid for a black guy to be taken from his home and forced to become an unpaid servant. When the black guy tried to free himself, he forced him work in heavy chains. Then a Chinese guy came to the door and asked if the White guy could use a live-in handyman. So the Chinese guy was invited in, but was paid almost nothing and was beaten when he complained about the arrangement. Finally a Mexican guy came over to work in the garden. He too was paid less than he would have liked, and treated badly, but things were bad at his house too, so he just stayed put up with it.
So the White guy had the others do all the difficult and menial work—they were constantly painting his walls, weeding his garden, unstopping his drains, ironing his clothes, changing his oil, rotating his tires… whatever. They were kept busy most of their waking hours, working for the White guy. But in the mean time, the White guy spent more and more leisure time reading, studying, contemplating, and experimenting with things that he was interested in. In time, his tinkering bore fruit, and he created quite a few useful items.
One day, the Black, Chinese, and Mexican, servants came in to ask for better wages and a bit more freedom. But the White guy laughed and pointed to the shelf where he kept his inventions. Why should he concede anything? It was clear that he was born to be their superior, based on his creativity, intelligence, and initiative!!! After all, what had the slaves invented???
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The printing press was actually invented by a German man.
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The movable type printing press what invented by a Korean named Choe Yun-ui in the year 1234. The reason why they stopped using this is that movable type was impractical with a character writing system – way too many characters, and cheaper to hand copy. A German alphabetic system is especially suited to movable type.
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anything is insulting with a little algebra…but still insulting
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The true source of the term “Arya/Aryan” comes from Lord EA, EA pronounced or spoken properly is Arya.
It is well known that the Sanskrit language is the root language of the Indo-Aryan. “When we examine the etymology of the word Teuton or Teonic which are both derived from base word teuta (pronounced tay-oo-tay), this compares precisely with the Egyptian scribe of the Gods, Tahuti, who is known as Thoth by the Greeks.” This title is also carried with the Tuatha de Danaan of ancient Arie. In Erie (Arie in the original spelling), today the sacred Tara mounds still exist. “Arya Tara” is a Goddess still worshipped in the East and was also known in Egypt.
Arie of Egypt connection:
References to some of the earliest epochs in Egypt and the arrival of Atlantean colonists can be found of the country’s remaining papyrus scrolls. The papyrus of Turin, for example, alludes to priest-kings ruling Egypt. The country was ruled by the “Shemsu Hor.” The original race that built and was the lived in the land today known as Egypt called themselves the Shemsu Hor or Heru. They described themselves as blue eyed sons of the blue eyed, blonde haired God Heru. Heru in the ancient language translates as “He of the Ari” and Shemsu as “Serpent(s).” So we see a common kinship with the other Ari or Arya of Europe and the East.
One of the most important finds in Egypt happened with the Egyptologist and Archaeologist Professor Walter B. Emery (1903-1971) while excavating tombs at Saqqara. Emery found men with blond hair and fair complexions. These individuals were revered by the Egyptians as a special class, an endowed elite the “Shemsu Hor” (Serpents of He of The Ari). The famous Egyptologist, author of Archaic Egypt discovered the remains who lived in the pre-dynastic epoch. These presented a dolichocephalous skull larger than that of the local ethnic group, fair hair and a taller, heavier build. Emery declared that this stock wasn’t indigenous to Egypt…This race kept its distance from the common people, blending only with the aristocratic classes….the scholar associated them with the Shemsu Hor….The Shemsu Hor are recognized as the dominant sacerdotal caste in pre-dynastic Egypt.”
-V. Di Cesare and A. Forgione “Malta: Skulls of the Mother Goddess”
Professor Emery wrote of these Shemsu Hor: “The Demigods of Manetho’s history.” These Shemsu Hor were stated to have originally lived on an island homeland as well. A very revealing text on the truth of the ancient Egyptians record of their origin:
Col. Henry Steel Olcott, a former president of the Theosophical Society, who explained in a March, 1881 edition of The Theosophist (page 123) that:
“We have a right to more than suspect that India, eight thousand years ago, sent a colony of emigrants who carried their arts and high civilization into what is now known to us as Egypt…This is what Bengsch Bey, the modern, as well as the most trusted Egyptologer and antiquarian says on the origin of the old Egyptians. Regarding these as a branch of the Caucasian [Aryan] family having a close affinity with the Indo-Germanic races, he insists that they ‘migrated from India before historic memory, and crossed that bridge of nations, the Isthus of Suez, to find a new fatherland on the banks of the Nile.” The Egyptians came, according to their own records, from a mysterious land…on the shore of the Indian Ocean, the sacred Punt; the original home of their gods…who followed thence after their people who had abandoned them to the valley of the Nile, led by Amon, Hor and Hathor. This region was the Egyptian ‘Land of the Gods,’ Pa-Nuter, in old Egyptian, or Holyland, and now proved beyond any doubt to have been quite a different place from the Holyland of Sinai. By the pictorial hieroglyphic inscription found on the walls of the temple of the Queen Haslitop at Der-el-babri, we see that this Punt can be no other than India. For many ages the Egyptians traded with their old homes, and the reference here made by them to the names of the Princes of Punt and its fauna and flora, especially the nomenclature of various precious woods to be found but in India, leave us scarcely room for the smallest doubt that the old civilization of Egypt is the direct outcome of that the older India.”
(source: Theosophist for March 1881 p. 123).
Full Article: http://gblt.webs.com/Witchcraft_Tradition.htm
In an Ancient World, The Different Races held no hate for each other. White people are not instinctively racist and have every right to be proud of their accomplishments, just as the (linguistics aside) Blacks and Asians do.
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Theosophy. Really? No. Just no.
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I don’t think I’ve ever read such incredibly racist posts in my life. For all the accusatory complaints of “white racism” on here, it’s nothing compared to how some of you have inverted it and made yourselves guilty of your own accusations.
Trust me on this. “Racism” is not a one-way street. Read the original post at the very top of this page again, saying “When white people do this….”
It’s so hilariously racist in itself. And the poster won’t even know why.
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@ Tony Royal
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/blacks-are-just-as-racist/
Next time, just click the Broken Record Dept link at the top of the page. It will save you a lot of time.
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@abagond
Paper was actually invented by ancient “Egyptians”. The word comes from papyrus (“papyr”), a plant that naturally grows abundantly only along the Nile from Uganda to Egypt. The Chinese simply invented a new process of papermaking nearly 2000 years later.
To add to your post, the ancient Egyptians also invented the medical profession as we know it today. There were specialised doctors who could readily research symptoms of and treatments for common ailments, and purchase medical equipment and pharmaceuticals. 4000 years ago, Egyptians could go and see a heart surgeon, a dermatologist, a podiatrist, etc. It was much more advanced than the western medical profession in the 1800s AD.
Since the 1700s, many elite whites have openly credited Egyptians for civilisation, particularly through secret societies such as the freemasons. Needless to say that many masonic lodges, tombs and memorials are constructed in the Egyptian style.
So the elites already credit Egypt, but they’re unwilling to be candid about it with the masses. However, very little credit is ever given to the ancient Chinese.
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There is a significant argument based upon four inventions, automobile, airplane, AC/ICE BOX and Electricity. There have been many other inventions as well by other races so tough argument. But those four in history are major AC/Ice box maybe not as much. Without the automobile, Airplane and Electricity we would not have much.
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Reblogged this on Lady in the Red Boots.
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I guess Tony was offended to find whites did not invent all he thought.
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@ Crusader (who may or may not venture to this blog)
Just because a person made the first phone call does not mean he actually made the phone. Mobile phones are telephones that were originally created for use in vehicles while cell phones are telephones that use cellular technology. In short that still does not give White men or you credit for the invention of the cell phone.
Now to proceed:
Drew, Charles
A pioneer in the field of blood preservation, he developed a method for separating plasma from the whole blood so they could be combined later. Also determined that plasma could be administered to certain patients regardless of their blood type. Helped to establish the modern blood bank.
Because there is so many I thinking I will just provide links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_scientists,_inventors,_and_scholars
Now I know how you like to talk about Europeans and Iron so this link is perfect for you. http://voices.yahoo.com/african-history-pre-colonial-african-inventions-2006905.html
Iron was first smelt in furnaces around 450 BC in Nigeria by the People of the Nok culture in West Africa. In 1928, archaeologists unearthed an amazing culture in the Nigerian village of Nok. They discovered by heating certain rocks they were able to reshape it into useful tools.
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I`m seeing some fallacies here.I notice references to certain black “inventors” whose contributions have since been disproven,and yet their names are still mentioned.Namely,philip emeagwali,benjamin banneker and charles drew.There are many others which have also been disproven.I also noticed abagond saying that the poor performance of blacks in american education is because of “racism”.It still amazes me that blacks still cling to this convenient belief,despite numerous studies,classroom experiments,and common sense observation which prove conclusively that blacks lower performance is GENETIC,not the result of racism or environment or poverty,etc.This disparity in academic performance between races has been observed consistently and repeatedly over many decades.Efforts to correct it or compensate for it have failed.
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Thats funny, Ive heard that white people stealing black culture, riding the back of these black inventions, raking in the comercial profit from stealing the culture, and not being able to do it very well….is genetic
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@B.R.
Now you know that is BS.Whites have not stolen black culture or ridden the back of black inventions,because these “inventions” are a myth.Whites are guilty of colonization and of purchasing black slaves from black african slave traders,but this has brought a greater standard of living to blacks in both africa and america than they would`ve otherwise had.Is it a coincidence that when whites have assumed control in an african nation,it becomes civilized,orderly and prosperous,and when it is turned over to black rule it quickly reverts back to the jungle? No,its all in the genes.I think the creator of this blog needs to accept racial reality and stop trying to analyze the thinking or motives of white people.As i pointed out in a previous comment,it is genes rather than “racism” or “oppression” or “white supremacy” that are responsible for the disparity of achievement and contribution between whites and “people of color” historically.The present day failure of blacks to succeed at the level of whites is a clue to why their ancestors did not create higher civilizations and continue to live in jungle barbarity in africa under black rule among the ruins of once thriving white-ruled cities.I say this because its true,NOT because i`m a white supremacist.
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@Ben W.
NOT because i`m a white supremacist.
You are as stupid as the day is long but hilarious none the less. and before you accuse me of resorting to ad-hominess attacks, let me assure you that you are right. How does one argue with stupidity? You don’t! Another one for the broken record department!
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This has to have been the exact mentality of the first recorded jazz group in America…they were white and said black people had nothing to do with inventing jazz (not those exact words of course as far as “black people”)…
Its unbeleivible when people dont even perceive that their popular culture is totaly built on a foundation courtesy of the concepts that came from the slaves that were brought over from West Africa.
This is the lie that far too many white Americans live in , the disconnect from the truth, the total lack of humility about the gift that the majority of Americans partake in, and dont even want to know the truth about it…
Innovation, Invention, Im humbled to know who some of the greatest Americans , who were black, and changed the face of music as we know it . were . And changed the lives of many people , including me , with a power that can heal you and clean your soul and give you knowledge..I admire these men and women so much , they gave their gift for anyone to enjoy and go learn from …American culture would be very diminished without them
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Its really funny, I used to get a jazz magizine that would list the universities and small colleges that would have a jazz department.
And, there are like a huge amount of them , maybe more than a thousand.
And , I can guarentee you that these higher institutions of learning will be teaching that people like Louis Armstrong invented a new way to sing that influenced every popular singer after that and a unique innovative way to play the trumpet
That Dizzy Guilespi and Charlie Parker innovated Be Bop , and Miles Davis and John Coltrane invented Modal Jazz
That is a whole lot of higher learning institutions saying that black Americans invented and innovated one of our highest expresions of American culture, not to mention the rhythm section , that dont get any credit for inventing new ways to play their instruments that Western music never dreamed of .
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@herneith
Could it be that “broken record” is any necessarily repeated and inconvenient fact not accepted by those insistent on blaming whites for everything that happens to or is not recognized in “people of color”?
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No.
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SW6, first of all, Im a drummer, who isnt as advanced as a piano player to give you the deepest details, but, I know enough to tell you this : the technical definition of “modes” in music, would be any group of notes put together to form a scale..so it could be anything.
And, many of the harmonic and melodic concepts that jazz musicians used was invented in European Classical music…except certain blues concepts, which is a big deal, but, they still had to fit the tuning system from European Classical music and not micro tones of Indean Classical music ( the exception , Avant Gruarde jazz, that opened up all the rules,you could use anything, but we are talking about Miles , Trane modal invention)
Jazz musicians have always practiced Western scales and theory concepts, but its the way they put it into the total concept of what they were playing that makes it unique and Afro diasporic.
So, its not just the “modes”, that Trane and Miles were using, which is a critics choice of words anyway and misleading, its how they used modes to get away from restricting chord changes , that existed before, and how they could open it up for more African expresion , with power to the pollyrhythms of the drums and how the blues expresions could be expanded to hook up with those drums.The concepts got much more simple so they could tune out the thinking brain and go more for the expresion and intuition, one of the most important things and the AFro Diasporic concept…those are the deeper goals than any one music theory, and those deeper AFro diasporic goals is what made those groups so powerful and classified as the innovators and inventors. The more open aproach also enabled them to put in the more advanced harmonic ideas of the Western Classical music like what Bartok was doing because they had opened up the harmony by using the modes, but, it was so Afro diasporic in its aproach, Western classical music has absolutly nothing like A Love Supreme or Miles Smiles
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SW6, remember that youtube you brought in with Nav Singh playing note for note to Cannonball Aderly ? That was one period, the beggining of the modal search, still with some traces of what went down before. Compare that with A Love Sureme, you see the harmonic concept is more open, with more pollyrhtytms and power coming from Elvin ( not that the drummer on the the Cannonball example is any less, just differant). Trane is more blues than ever , but you can hear open fourth chords from Mccoy,which is very AFrican, but at the same time, referances to chords I heard by Bartok, but, Bartok never was in the middle of Elvin Jones, which dramaticly defines what they were dealing with, of course improvisation and coming from the whole tradition of jazz.
Its funny the white people who harp about how black people didnt invent anything,when if you go to Japan or Europe, they know very well that jazz is one of Americas most profound and deepest of American expresions…and they know it is Afro diasporic and who innovated and invented the major movements of jazz
Unfortunatly, the rhythm section as I mentioned before gets little credit for the absolute monster inventions they came up with to play their instruments with techniques never seen before, its all based on who “wrote” what, from the European concept of music, but those of us trying to understand these rhythm sections, are just blasted weak in the knees at how unbeleivable these extented techniques are
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Could it be that “broken record” is any necessarily repeated and inconvenient fact not accepted by those insistent on blaming whites for everything that happens to or is not recognized in “people of color”?
No dummy As the section implies, ‘the broken record department’ is for ad nausea arguments, and I use the word ‘argument’ lightly, such as the ones you put forth. At least try to come up with something more original! With you lot it is the same old broken record. Personally, I couldn’t care less about what you and your fellow clowns think. The only information and, or, refutation you provide is fodder for satire, jokes and general hilarity. So if you wish to reiterate the old rote argument ala the white supremacist, go to that section. Rote away to your heart’s content! If you were the genetically superior being that you profess to be you would have been able to have read and comprehended this. Is comprehension genetically determined? If so you are genetically deficient as you seem to possess none of these comprehension genes.
As for accepting facts, people can believe what they want rightly or wrongly. It is not up to you to determine what their belief systems should be. Capiche?
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I`m all for giving blacks credit,but it seems that political correctness and the notion of racial equality has lead to some wildly inaccurate claims being made about black “inventions”,and not just machines.Many theories and concepts are erroneously credited to blacks also.I think its important to separate the legitimate black contributions,as in music,from some of the more fanciful and naive ones,like those promoted during black history month.By the way,i used to be a drummer myself,as someone here mentioned they were,and i was a big fan of black music and musicians.Earl Palmer and Bernard Purdie were favorites of mine,among others.Then i became aware of the anti-white attitudes among many blacks(miles davis reportedly hated whites)and eventually limited myself to listening only to white music and musicians.
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@ Ben W.
So, you once appreciated listening to “black music” but then you discovered that some Black musicians, like Miles Davis, from the 1950s segregated era didn’t care for White people. So the music that you liked didn’t change or anything, but you just decided to not appreciate it anymore, and would henceforth only allow yourself to listen to “white music.” That will teach Miles Davis!!!
Are you really that addled, or are you some kind of a comic genius?
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Ben W.
You said, “Earl Palmer and Bernard Purdie were favorites of mine,among others.Then i became aware of the anti-white attitudes among many blacks(miles davis reportedly hated whites)and eventually limited myself to listening only to white music and musicians.”
Why on Earth do you suppose that they have anti-white attitudes? I will tell you the more-than-obvious answer that it didn’t come from a vacuum. On that note why is it wrong for us to be anti-white, but it’s okay to be anti-black as hinted in in your responses and not expect any backlash?
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Are you really that addled, or are you some kind of a comic genius?
Lets be generous and say he is a comic genius!
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Yeah, and its funny, Miles Davis hired white guys during his whole career…but make no mistake, his seminal bands were all black..but, Mies knew how to tap into all sides, the genius of Gil Evans, of Bill Evans, he used people from all backgrounds, Badal Roy from India, Airto from Brazil.. Miles was a tremendous victum of white racism, he was beat by the police in a racist case he eventualy won a suit against in New York..could that be the reason he justifyable doesnt trust “whiteness”?
Ben W, too bad you dont get it and are a drummer, what a debt we drummers owe to black Americans who brought the American invention of the drum set to total life and soul…Physical invention ? How about the banjo, from AFrica ? How about all the drums invented from Africa…drums are the first calculater you know , right?
The mathamatical concepts the ancient Africans discoverd for humanity were so profound and deep,they have lasted longer than the Egyption Pyramids and totaly and I mean totaly dominate the popular culture of the total Americas where slaves were brought, and have conqured the world…you should know that , Ben , if you are a drummer who really knows your instrument…layered pollyrhythms, Ben, you think that is just natural to all human beings? Spheres of mathamatics, logicly figured out to tap into the intuition and sub concious so you can totaly turn off the thining brain…you know, the intuition that science has discovered is really controling our conciousness…they tapped into that force like NO ONE else….and , with taylor made dance moves to go with it to totaly unleash the inner being into the alpha state…I practiced with a Brazilian percusionist today, Ben, and we did pure AFro diasporic grooves, I put myself in an alpha state , it is a healing force like no other…
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Ha Ha, exactly , SW6, amazing Miles gets judged by a lie
And, Ben may think he only plays white music, but, you can bet that music has been influenced in some way by black music…
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B.R.,it wasnt a lie.Obviously miles did have hidden contempt for whites and made statements to that effect,though he was able to suppress it in the interest of obtaining the best musicians for his projects,including white musicians.As for white music,there is music that can be considered exclusively white in origin and concept,just as black music has been influenced by the music of white europeans
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Ben W.
I’ll ask again, why do you think there are black people who hate whites? And why is it okay to be anti-black but being anti-white is just wrong? Also, don’t try to derail or twist my words if you can.
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brothawolf,i say it because i`ve seen compilations of quotes of various black afro-centrics and other non-white academics,radio show hosts,preachers,etc,and actually heard many of them.And its clear these people(and jews)have sought to inflame blacks against whites through media and academic distortion and deception.I didnt mean to imply that being anti-black is acceptable and being anti-white is not,but there is a difference.Alot of what is considered anti-black is really just politically-incorrect fact based on racial differences,while alot of what is anti-white is based on the hate-filled rhetoric of those who make their living by making whites feel guilty.
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So ,Miles was able to wrestle with his impulses , based on defence from a white racist system that , among other things, beat him bloody for just being black…he won the court case…and hired who he thought was best for his music …my gosh, I admire that so much, what a great thing for all of us to shoot for in our everyday life…I think a lot of what you perceive as anti white is just a defence against “whiteness”, or people who wrap themselves in their whiteness to surpress other people, discriminate against them with catagories invented like “race”…if you were black , you would have this defence also…
Ben, what is funny is, if you play the drums, you are worshipping at the altar of black genius,of the black spirit from ancient Africa, not the mechanical invention, the spirit that was infused into that instrument by the black genius that breathed the real life into it.Your logical mind is telling you that there is white music you play the drums to, but, your spirit knows that when you sit and play them, you are mimicking something that comes from the black spirit and soul and genius.If you play any kind of backbeat oriented beat, it came from an Afro diasporic base….rock and roll eith notes on the high hat is from “8 to the bar” concept of black “boogie woogie”, the back beat from early blues and rhythm and blues and the rock that Chick Berry and Little Richard first put out, which must have been in the Southern black blues clubs even before , are the real origins .
Nobody is saying people dont use concepts that came from European Classical music, the problem is that is all that is implied in society , to the point that people dont even realise how deep the Afro diasporic concepts are deeply in our lives.
And, make no mistake, music is just the gateway into what I am talking about, it is only the way into gaining a much higher leval of understanding life,of how to be in touch with our intuition and spirit and soul that is the profound gift that the African Diaspora gave us
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Can you give me an example of how someone makes their living making Whites feel guilty?
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There is tons of money to be made in kissing up to whites, not much I know of in doing the opposite.
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I used to read white commenters. Some were my favourites. Then i became aware of the anti-black attitudes among many whites (ben w reportedly hates blacks) and eventually limited myself to reading only black commenters.
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@ Ben W
By white music do you mean like polka and yodelling?
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@ Ben W
You know, right, there is a difference between hatred and anger?
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@ Ben W.
“while alot of what is anti-white is based on the hate-filled rhetoric of those who make their living by making whites feel guilty”
So what if a few people make whites “feel guilty” for their ACTIONS? Why do you assume it’s hate-based and not simply a reaction to the ill-TREATMENT of Blacks for hundreds of years? Blacks, collectively, do not do this, however whites, collectively, have made blacks feel guilty just for being black for hundreds of years.
We can’t help the guilt you feel, perhaps you can begin changing your ways, and eventually you’d have nothing to feel guilty about.
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Nonsense,resjan.Whites have not collectively made blacks feel guilty for being black.They`ve just tried to deal with the black nature and its deleterious effects on society the best they can.It hasnt been easy.Whites have also gone out of their way to help blacks and to upgrade their status in our society,although,because of obvious genetic differences,this has failed.Despite what whites have done for blacks at the expense of their own survival,whites are still demonized with labels of “racist”,”neo-nazi”,”white supremacist”,etc by the controlled media and in academia.And along with this,in a misguided attempt to liberate blacks from the grief of white “oppression”,academics have deluded blacks with fanciful stories of great historical black civilizations and inventions,claims of which cannot be substantiated.
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@Ben W.
So I guess blacks should thank whites for the genocide, enslavement and apartheid, lynchings, etc in the Americas and in Africa…and the burning of African cities, disruption of trade routes, destruction of their cultures and theft of their artifacts, land and resources. And the denigration of blacks on western television, film and in school.
Please enlighten me how “whites have also gone out of their way to help blacks and to upgrade their status in our society”. When did that happen? I must have been on holiday on the moon when that was going on….
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Ben W.,
You said, “brothawolf,i say it because i`ve seen compilations of quotes of various black afro-centrics and other non-white academics,radio show hosts,preachers,etc,and actually heard many of them.And its clear these people(and jews)have sought to inflame blacks against whites through media and academic distortion and deception.”
And where do you suppose that comes from, a vacuum? People don’t, as you claim, have this animosity towards whites for no reason. It makes no sense.
And then you said “I didnt mean to imply that being anti-black is acceptable and being anti-white is not,but there is a difference.Alot of what is considered anti-black is really just politically-incorrect fact based on racial differences,while alot of what is anti-white is based on the hate-filled rhetoric of those who make their living by making whites feel guilty.”
Ben W. let me guess, you’re a race realist, aren’t you?
In that case to you stereotypes are true, black people are inferior to whites, white inventions matter way more than black inventions, and this blog is anti-white. Let’s just get that out of the way as we’ve met people like you many times before.
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And like Someguy asked, how do we make the poor, innocent white race feel guilty?
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@ brothawolf
Don’t bother, it’s the same old routine. If you call the bigot on his bullsh*t, all he has to do is ignore the question as if it never existed. I’ve seen it time and time again.
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“Please enlighten me how “whites have also gone out of their way to help blacks and to upgrade their status in our society”. When did that happen? I must have been on holiday on the moon when that was going on….”
********
LMAO – yeah, I was probably on Mars or maybe it was Mercury …
Our latest attention seeking troll is likely referring to the (broken record) WHITE RACIAL FRAMING belief that blacks are/were better off anywhere and everywhere (including: slavery, Black Codes, Jim Crow, expulsion from towns and counties across Amerikkka and present day racism) than we would be if we remained in “uncivilized” and “backwards” Africa!
Folks like this would be embarrassing to themselves, and their peers, if their simple (race-realist/superior whites) collective weren’t so delusional, and hopelessly stupid!
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What is it that white people are afraid of, why do they have to go on about how clever whites are, why is it so hard for them to accept that black people can be just as intelligent as whites. It must be terrible being white if the main thing on their minds is trying to convince themselves they are superior to blacks.
C’mon will one of you superior one’s give us all the answer…….what are you afraid of.
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I`m not talking about white victimhood when i refer to making white people feel guilty,as you imply by saying “poor innocent white race”.Victimhood is the domain of non-whites.I`m saying that the whole thing is a fraud;the idea that blacks created higher civilizations and that the evil white race has always conspired to hold down the wonderfully sensitive,creative and noble black race.And yes,i AM a race realist,which is to say that i believe that each race is endowed with specific traits that make them better fitted to certain pursuits than others.Yes,i believe certain “stereotypes” are true,like those related to criminality and lack of impulse control,and i believe blacks are inferior in some ways to whites and asians,but i also recognize that they have the advantage in some areas related to physical activity and musical creativity.Regarding inventions,yes i would say that white inventions have had a much greater impact on western civilization than blacks ones,especially since those often claimed for blacks were really conceived by whites.Now,you can verify this yourself.There have been countless bogus claims(many in public school curriculums)of blacks having invented many things we know with absolute certainty were created by whites.Everything from traffic lights to helicopters.This does not mean being anti-black,but pro-truth.Think about it.Is it responsible to teach 4th graders,for example,that blacks invented things we know they didnt? How will such a lie benefit black self-esteem,except in the short term? This is the problem i have with the notion of racial equality.I`m for facts,not wild theories,wishful thinking or embellishments intended to make blacks gleam with pride.
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@ Matari
@ Dave Enamu
Ben W. just feels guilty. That’s why he’s complaining about black people “making whites feel guilty.” But if he can uphold the theory of superiourity, it lessens his guilt (although clearly not enough). It’s an old, old way of exculpation for iniquitous actions.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Broken record alert!
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Ben W, you of course. Gosh you folk type fast!
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I like how White people (aka Western Europeans) act like they weren’t savages until about 500 years ago. lol Man, I really loved those Viking pyramids, Celtic writing systems and Pictish wheels.
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Repetition is necessary to get through to people like you.Inconvenient facts are not cliches.And,after all,i was honest and fair.I admitted that i regard blacks as inferior as a group in some areas,not all,just as i admitted that blacks are better,as a group,in some areas,specifically in areas of physical activity and musical expression.Eventually you people are going to have to stop dismissing everything as cliche and “cut and paste” or broken record and accept the truth that the outlandish claims that blacks created the precursors to present day civilization and technology is simply a fantasy.
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Ben W., refuting foolish HBD claims itself has become cliché. Seriously, if you are not intelligent enough at this point to see through HBD, it’s almost pointless to try and reason with you. You’re so mesmerized by your religion of false science that you would rather believe anything else than to see it collapse before your eyes. HBD is a crutch for the weak-minded. Come back when you are stronger.
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@ Ben W.
You’re right, Benny. I have to hand it to White folks. You guys are much better at genocide than Black folks. Black folks just shoot and machete people – very sloppy and ineffective, while White folks made spiffy gas chambers to kill many thousands each day. See, I can admit Whites are superior in some activities. I’m not biased at all.
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Bulanik,
I had to fight off an almost irresistible urge to play the spoons, the washboard AND the jug the whole time I watched that clip!
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Fiamma – Bulanik
It took every ounce of my willpower to resist going on ebay or amazon dot com to purchase that fashionable and incomparable cap (w/feathers) Mr Yodel was wearing!
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Within the US: It’s as if you had village that was mostly populated by White people. There were also a few Brown people, Black people, and Yellow people.
One day there’s this big village meeting. “Our village needs housing. We’re tired of sleeping under trees and crude lean to’s. We want to build some enclosed lodges so we won’t be so cold in the winter and they’ll also provide better protection.” So they ask, if anyone has any ideas on how this can be done. Some people have ideas, and some people have seen a few lodges created by other people and they all raise their hands. But only the hands of White people are recognized by the leaders up in front. So they call the people who have been recognized to come up to teach everyone else how the lodge building might be done.
But as everyone begins to gather around they suddenly ask for a vote. “How many think that only White villagers should be allowed to learn?” Most of the White hands go up, and they are the majority—so it becomes a village rule. The non-Whites are separated and moved to the outskirts of the village and are encouraged to bring water and refreshment, and to do the village work while the White people are learning.
This goes on for many weeks. The Whites (who are no longer focused on hard labor and the more menial tasks) are making progress planning the lodges. The Black group of villagers keep complaining that they should be able to participate or at least be allowed to meet and talk about their own lodge building ideas. Finally, the Whites give in. A few Whites come over to the Black villagers and briefly tell them some basics… just enough so that when it comes time to actually build the lodges the Blacks will be able to help with the manual labor. They eventually do the same with all the other non-White groups.
So the day comes and the lodges are built. No surprise, the people who are responsible for all of the planning are White, all the foremen are White, the team leaders are White. However, the non-White villagers are compelled to work hard and long hours on the manual labor. They even make a few suggestions that help solve some unforeseen problems, but nobody makes much fuss about their contributions. By the end of the day the lodges are built and all of the villagers move into them – the best lodges are saved for White families, but even the non-White family lodges are better than what they had before.
That evening a delegation of Whites makes the rounds to visit all on the non-Whites on what they called a “Thank You Tour.” But when they arrive in each non-White lodge, it soon becomes clear that they are expecting the non-Whites to thank the delegation.
“Aren’t you thankful for what we White people did for you? I mean, we planned everything, we were the foremen, the inventors, and leaders—we organized everybody… if it wasn’t for us, these lodges wouldn’t even exist! Where would you be without White people?”
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Another white guy who just regulates back inventions and innovations to “its only music..” as though that doesnt equal as high a leval as technical inventions. You know, for concepts and ideas to survive through the most horrible of supresions, white people really did try to destroy the culture of the slaves that they brought over from Africa, much more than Native Americans or indentured servants, or Chinese railroad worders etc , to make it through the absolute attempt at anihalating it, and come out and dominate the popular cultures and become the total foundation that these cultures get built on, sais a whole heck of a lot more than “its just music, they are good at that…”
Music is just the gateway, its much deeper than that….
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And to suggest that people are just making up lies to push black inventions, I mean my gosh, how many lies have we had to endure by white people about what reality is supposed to be, for so long…there has been so much damage done by white lies and distortions of history , it is painful
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@ King
Thats a beautiful illustrative allegory to the white inventor argument.
@ B.R
“…You know, for concepts and ideas to survive through the most horrible of supresions, white people really did try to destroy the culture of the slaves that they brought over from Africa, much more than Native Americans or indentured servants, or Chinese railroad worders etc , to make it through the absolute attempt at anihalating it, and come out and dominate the popular cultures and become the total foundation that these cultures get built on, sais a whole heck of a lot more than “its just music, they are good at that…”
Music is just the gateway, its much deeper than that….”
Thats actually quite profoundly insightful!
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Since Ben is American, it is a sure bet he isnt going to understand the very same dynamic played out in Brazil, Haiti, Cuba, Jamaica…its very logical to take the argument straight to his own homeland, to make the point more relevant to his personal life, as anyone can see, he immediatly understood talking about Miles Davis, Earl Palmer and Bernard Purdie
.Who sais just the USA.?Why is it again some people , in trying to look for some criticism in a statement about Afro diasporic culture and how it survived slavery and dominated the perspective cultures these slaves were brought to,think the commenter ,who is answering the other commentators USA perspective, cant look past just the USA?……it all played out the same way with variations, all showing that the African slaves brought over, having their cultures banned and anialated, all dominated the popular cultures they were brought to, and were all dumped out with nothing after slavery…
Ill leave it to each individual to make up their own mind about which they think would have the most obstacles to have to overcome , I think black African slavery was the worst , had the most repercusions, has had the most affect on many of the problems that we can see in all the societies where black African slaves were taken to…dumped out after slavery with absolutly no infra structure and recources…this is in all the Americas that had African slaves…
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I dont think Ben could relate to,Bateria e Passistas do Estacao Primeiro de Mangueira , Elza Soares, Pixinguinho, Candomble, Maracatu, Coco, Bloco AFro, Samba da Roda, Muceca, Feijoada, etc
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Well,dont worry guys.You will have “justice” for people of color for all the awful things we whites did.The countries our ancestors built are undergoing a radical demographic transformation,because of jewish supremacist race policies,and will soon have non-white majorities,and most whites are so brainwashed and browbeaten over “slavery”,etc.that they seem quite happy to commit racial and cultural suicide on your behalf.So people of color will continue to receive all the recognition and favoritism they can stand and more as the white majority population in these countries and its voting power diminishes.I just wonder how blacks will like it as these countries descend into the sort of societies found in brown countries.
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@ Ben W.
Your fellow bigots would frown upon your defeatist attitude.
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SomeGuy
LOL, sir that is hilarious. I love it!
hopefully the quotes work ><
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Many great invention have been made by individuals not an entire group. There have been many invention made by whites but those people didn’t represent 99% of the population. Why do people feel the need to take credit for something someone else made just because they are from the same race.
We know in a society like the US “whites” are seen as individuals while everyone else is seen as fitting into one group. When one person who happens to be white does something bad where the whole world can see he or she not going to be mocked because of their race but seen mostly as another person who did something bad. On the other hand when it comes topics like inventions that were made by a white person. The same people who consider themselves “individuals” use it as an leverage to feel superior to others just because someone with a intellectual mind happens to have the same skin color as them. People are willing to lump themselves into category if the nature of it is good but when its something bad they dissociate themselves from it. If I said “all white people are racist bigots” many would disagree with my statement. However, if I said “white people are all smart because they had people like Newton and Einstein ” how many white people would disagree with what I said compared to something negative about them.
I seen it to often where one would take good characteristic and use it to represent people of their own kind but deny the bad ones because it doesn’t represent all of them. This is way more prevalent with whites because unlike blacks a person actions does not serve as an image of the white race as a whole. Blacks are given negative characteristic and that is suppose to be a representation of the entire race. For example the Hungry Game movie casting where one of the characters was played by a black girl. It never stated what her race was other than she had dark skin. People thought she was a little white girl because of her characteristics like being innocent and etc. I’m still puzzle how being innocent can be consider something one group of people have. This just shows that when your born the way you look automatically determines who you will be in life by people who can’t see pass a person skin color.
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Pillow inventions? Recipes? McCoy drip cups? Yea takes lots of brains to figure those out. I hate to remind you, but it sounds as if you’re a bit sensitive to the fact that whites then asians have created every meaningful invention we have today. You can think what you wish, but maybe it’s the deep subconscious knowledge that blacks have produced .05% or less of “meaningful” inventions that makes you hide your pride behind a meaningless few points. So it kind of goes to show you the advancement of the black race or the genetic makeup if you will. Meaningful inventions and discoveries: Rocket propulsion, Jet propulsion, Electro-Magnetic railways, Processors, Flight, Automobiles, Circuit Boards, Atomic discoveries, Radio communication, Televisions, Records, Compact Disks (I can keep going)… You merely play with our fruits.. Take a look back at the originations of the blacks.. Ghana, Zambia, Tanzania, Botswana, Congo and you can see why they live in a constant state of denial-just utter frustration and despair. Why did South Africa seem to get an upgrade compared to the rest? That might be that the white superior man showed up and showed the animals civilization. But you can only teach the missing link so much.
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Why are there stars in the sky? Get a life loon!
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“Oh and it’s also ironic that they rarely just call Egyptians Africans. (I mean Egypt is and has always been in AFRICA hasn’t it?).
Anyway, the troll bores me, unoriginal, illogical and just plain FAIL.. but I like reading you guys responses”
Africa is a term that originated with the native peoples of today’s Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya, and was used by the Roman Empire for its holdings in those lands. African does not mean Black or Negro.
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@ Me
“I hate to remind you, but it sounds as if you’re a bit sensitive to the fact that whites then asians have created every meaningful invention we have today”–The white race did not invent those things. A white man maybe or better yet a group of men (of which you may not truly know the color of), but you may think you do.
Jet propulsion for example did not take off until the Chinese but the aeolipile ( the first work in the field) dates back to before the 1st century ad in which no true inventor is known. As far as railways I suggest you take a look at this link: http://new.inventions.org/resources/african/railway.html
Let it sink in. Go ahead. I know it hurts. It does, but think of it as a learning experience.
“(I can keep going)…”–Please do keep going and while you name the inventions care to name the inventor.
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No one is saying that whites are superior and blacks inferior,but we must accept the reality of racial differences.The fact that blacks never created higher civilizations or invented anything significant doesnt mean they are inferior,but it does illustrate that the races arent “equal”,as many have claimed,and do differ greatly in many areas.Even the more rational black academics accept this fact.There is no white inventor argument or tactic,but there is a refusal on the part of blacks to accept that blacks have never achieved the level of civilization that other races have.
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^ Or in other words, the juvenile and universally discredited “race realist” tripe that even many of the former race realists have abandon by now. News flash—Africans were living in what were considered by all at the time as “higher civilizations” whilst your ancestors were living here…
Lets not get too heady just because you’ve finally emerged, Wilma.
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http://voices.yahoo.com/african-history-pre-colonial-african-inventions-2006905.html?cat=37
I have always thought that when confronted the question what have your people done. I could always say a lot but we don’t have to brag about it. The Chinese and more selective the Mongolians actually made a lot. We also get a lot of inventions from Egypt and the Horn of Africa. Yet, as long as black people teach their children about what we have made I don’t feel the need to lawd it over, maybe I am just that secure about our great history.
I have to say a lot of those so called genuises were unstable people. Sir Issac Newton could have made any conspiracy theorist blush, and the more you read about him the stranger he gets. A lot of genuiely smart people crack.
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If the race realist tripe has been discredited,it is only because it doesnt fit the politically correct dogma centered around the myth of racial equality.White mans`s original comment about afrocentrism is correct,although abagond tried to change the word to eurocentric.Contrary to the claims made here,the last time i checked the curricula in the public school system in north america and europe,it was anti-white and “multicultural”,not eurocentric.I`m no white supremacist,but i accept that the enormous gulf between white and black achievement is rooted in biology,not racism.
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If the race realist tripe has been discredited,it is only because it doesnt fit the politically correct dogma centered around the myth of racial equality.
In other words ‘political correctness’ is code for white supremacist being called on their drivel. Okay, we get it . Next!
Contrary to the claims made here,the last time i checked the curricula in the public school system in north america and europe,it was anti-white and “multicultural”,not Eurocentric
Ah, I see, the curriculae doesn’t extol the white man’s history as that of being supreme, okay. I get it now, any parts of the curriculae that includes any of the dastardly actions perpetrated on black folks and other racialized people should be excluded, ignored or used as footnotes, okay.
I`m no white supremacist,but i accept that the enormous gulf between white and black achievement is rooted in biology,not racism.
Is the above statement the joke of the day? The comedy, the comedy!!!!
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Wow, you know,,, that’s EXACTLY what they said about Shadow People!! People are so politically correct these days that they just don’t want to acknowledge it!
http://www.mediums4u.com/what-are-shadow-people.php
In fact, they said the same thing about David Icke’s Reptilians! Again, nobody wanted to admit that they were REAL!! They obviously can’t handle the truth!!! Why isn’t this taught in university???
http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/64856-david-icke-the-reptilians-the-schism-obama-and-the-new-world-order
And now, Race Realism too!!
Raise your hand if you’re starting to detect a pattern.
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I`m saying the curricula is not accurate and is being pushed by globalists and supremist jews with an agenda to break up and ultimately destroy western civilization by instilling white people with a sense of collective guilt so they wont resist the agenda against them.Most of those “dastardly” actions are exaggerated or distorted with no consideration for the context of the time or circumstances in which they took place.And,of course,no mention given to similar actions by non-whites or by jews.I`m sorry,but blaming whites and white “racism” does not change the reality of racial differences and disparities of achievement,which is still evident today,despite every opportunity and advantage being provided for blacks at the expense of whites.There is nothing supremist or racist about stating or accepting this fact
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“Neeva
I`m saying the curricula is not accurate and is being pushed by globalists and supremist jews with an agenda to break up and ultimately destroy western civilization by instilling white people with a sense of collective guilt so they wont resist the agenda against them”
LInda says,
No, Neeva…the past history books have done what “pro-white” realist like you do so well — “shift the truth sideways” to make yourself look better…
I think what modern day historical corrections are attempting to teach you pro-white people is that you have to learn to “swallow the sh’t as well as the cream” on top of the cake — the same way that non-whites have been smelling the sh’t that white societies have been shoveling for years…
Don’t like the taste, huh….that’s too bad
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@ Neeva
Even with proof you deny black contributions. Sucks to be shadowed in such strong denial.
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@ Nieva
Coincidentally, the curricula is also quite inaccurate regarding the upcoming Planet X (Nibaru) Cataclysm. And of course, the Jews are to blame for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_cataclysm
I’ve been telling people for years that we should be teaching school children about this planet but the Rabbi’s are against it! It’s obvious the result of a politically correct educational system!
[Incidentally to the non-crazy people out there, isn’t it fascinating how these nutjobs can’t seem to detect their own hilarious irony?
-It’s foolish of you to blame White people for all of your problems!
but…
-You Blacks are out to take away all the money from honest White people!
-And you’re obviously brainwashed by JEWS who remote control the world!]
Neeva, you don’t realize this but the only reason that you believe all this stuff is because you’re a huge dummy. I’m quite sure if you look at the rest of your life there will be some clear clues to show you this. I doubt if you’ll really look though. I guess everybody needs something to believe in… (sigh) I do wish you were more intelligent though, then you might have a chance of being cured of this mental condition.
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@ King of Trouble
Thank you for that link.
@ King
The shadow people link was just creepy.
@ Race Realist aka racist
Click the link and let it sink in. http://african-americaninventors.org/
It is just sad that you guys are so insecure that you don’t want to credit minorities for their contributions. To seriously claim it as your own is just sad.
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Neeva,
“I`m sorry,but blaming whites and white “racism” does not change the reality of racial differences and disparities of achievement,which is still evident today,despite every opportunity and advantage being provided for blacks at the expense of whites.”
***********
Disparities of achievement??
Tell me Neeva. How long was the Affirmative Action Era *FOR WHITES ONLY* that white people enjoyed while black people in the U.S. were denied and prohibited from having the same privileges?
And, how much time did blacks have to use their opportunities and advantages (????) to achieve parity with whites?
I have to say with all honesty Neeva that your arguments, claims and knowledge of historical facts are incredibly unbelievable/ridiculous! No one with a viable working brain cell would take your assertions seriously, much less believe your tripe that the small and now diminishing gains of the Civil Rights movement came at the expense of whites.
It must be nice to be able to live one’s entire existence in an unreal reality (bubble) where one’s WHITE privileges amounts to being unexceptionally DELUSIONAL!
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This is the affirmative action that Matari is talking about…
See?
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Here’s a just tiny slice of the huge (AA for whites) pie:
*******
“Thirteen years ago, my parents sold the house I grew up in. It was one of those suburban tract homes that sprouted across the nation after World War II. Our home was pleasant if undistinguished. It wasn’t one of Malvina Reynolds’ “little boxes made of ticky tacky” — based on a drive the singer took past Daly City in the ’50s. It was a ranch house on a curving, leafy street in Merrick, Long Island, 25 miles east of Manhattan, about five miles from its more famous suburban neighbor, Levittown.
After turning 65, my father wasted no time retiring. He’d purchased our house back in 1952 for $20,000 thanks to a 3 percent mortgage made possible by the Veterans Administration. Now he was considering an offer of $300,000. With the money they’d get a place in the Berkshires and winter in Florida.
Ten years later, my colleague, Cornelius, sold the house he grew up in. Cornelius’ folks had also purchased a place in the early ’50s in Chester, just outside Philadelphia. A few years ago, after Cornelius’ father died, his mother wanted to move back to Virginia. Cornelius sold the house in 2000; he received all of $29,500.
That $270,500 gap reveals a microcosm of race in America. My family is white and Cornelius’ is black.
On Monday, the Supreme Court finally issued its ruling on whether the University of Michigan should jettison its affirmative action program. The court upheld the law school program that sought a “critical mass” of minorities but struck down a “point system” used to increase affirmative action for undergraduates. While the decisions didn’t fully satisfy advocates on either side, on balance they were less “anti-affirmative action” than feared. I wonder if some court members had had experiences like mine.
Cornelius and I have worked together for 20 years, always making an identical salary, yet my net worth is several times his.
My two brothers and I enjoyed good schools, parks and libraries because of rising property values. My parents’ growing home equity not only provided for retirement but sent us to private colleges — and even helped with the down- payments on our own homes. Today, thanks to them, my house is paid off and my 21-year-old daughter is about to graduate college with a nest egg of her own. When my parents pass away, we stand to inherit a tidy sum.
Cornelius had no such help. As American manufacturing declined, Chester became increasingly black and populated by people on fixed incomes, who faced higher taxes to maintain public services and schools. Cornelius’ parents’ expenses climbed as their city deteriorated. Cornelius attended college on scholarship, but worked his way through school. Today, rather than look to his mother for financial help, Cornelius helps support her.
What’s this got to with race? It goes back to the postwar suburbs and the government policies and subsidies that made them possible — and guaranteed they’d be segregated.
A set of New Deal programs led by the Federal Housing Administration allowed millions of average white Americans to own a home for the first time. Down payment requirements were reduced from up to 50 percent to 10 or 20 percent and the time to pay off the remaining mortgage was extended from five years to 30 years.
Federal investigators evaluated 239 regions; communities with a mere one or two black families were deemed ipso facto financial risks ineligible for low cost home loans. Government appraisal maps colored those communities red — hence the term “redlining.”
Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans; more than 98 percent went to whites. Of the 350,000 new homes built with federal support in Northern California between 1946 and 1960, fewer than 100 went to African Americans.
Barred from purchasing a home in the new suburbs, Cornelius’ parents had to buy in one of the few communities where black people could live.
Today, according to New York University economist Edward Wolff, the typical white family has eight times the net worth of the typical black family. Even when they make the same income, white families have over twice the wealth — much of that gap due to home equity and family inheritance.
Many whites who grew up middle class in the suburbs like to think we got where we are today on merit — hard work, intelligence, pluck and maybe a little luck. We wonder why non-white parents didn’t just work hard, buy a home and pass on the appreciated value like our parents did. We tend to be blind to how the playing field has been — and continues to be — tilted to our advantage.
Racism doesn’t just come dressed in white sheets or voiced by skinheads, but lies in institutions that, like the FHA, have quietly and often invisibly channeled America’s wealth, power, and status disproportionately to white people, giving us a head start in life. As Ohio State University law professor John A. Powell observes: “The slick thing about whiteness is that whites are getting the spoils of a racist system without themselves being personally racist.”
I sit on my back deck, enjoying the blooms of the wisteria and reading an e- mail from my daughter about her post-college plans. My daughter certainly had nothing to do with slavery or Jim Crow. But the past still helps shape her future thanks to the many advantages my parents, me, and now she, have accrued thanks to generations of racial preferences — for white people.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/REAL-LIFE-Affirmative-Action-for-Whites-The-2605633.php#ixzz2NqQCRjL9
Thirteen years ago, my parents sold the house I grew up in. It was one of those suburban tract homes that sprouted across the nation after World War II. Our home was pleasant if undistinguished. It wasn’t one of Malvina Reynolds’ “little boxes made of ticky tacky” — based on a drive the singer took past Daly City in the ’50s. It was a ranch house on a curving, leafy street in Merrick, Long Island, 25 miles east of Manhattan, about five miles from its more famous suburban neighbor, Levittown.
After turning 65, my father wasted no time retiring. He’d purchased our house back in 1952 for $20,000 thanks to a 3 percent mortgage made possible by the Veterans Administration. Now he was considering an offer of $300,000. With the money they’d get a place in the Berkshires and winter in Florida.
Ten years later, my colleague, Cornelius, sold the house he grew up in. Cornelius’ folks had also purchased a place in the early ’50s in Chester, just outside Philadelphia. A few years ago, after Cornelius’ father died, his mother wanted to move back to Virginia. Cornelius sold the house in 2000; he received all of $29,500.
That $270,500 gap reveals a microcosm of race in America. My family is white and Cornelius’ is black.
On Monday, the Supreme Court finally issued its ruling on whether the University of Michigan should jettison its affirmative action program. The court upheld the law school program that sought a “critical mass” of minorities but struck down a “point system” used to increase affirmative action for undergraduates. While the decisions didn’t fully satisfy advocates on either side, on balance they were less “anti-affirmative action” than feared. I wonder if some court members had had experiences like mine.
Cornelius and I have worked together for 20 years, always making an identical salary, yet my net worth is several times his.
My two brothers and I enjoyed good schools, parks and libraries because of rising property values. My parents’ growing home equity not only provided for retirement but sent us to private colleges — and even helped with the down- payments on our own homes. Today, thanks to them, my house is paid off and my 21-year-old daughter is about to graduate college with a nest egg of her own. When my parents pass away, we stand to inherit a tidy sum.
Cornelius had no such help. As American manufacturing declined, Chester became increasingly black and populated by people on fixed incomes, who faced higher taxes to maintain public services and schools. Cornelius’ parents’ expenses climbed as their city deteriorated. Cornelius attended college on scholarship, but worked his way through school. Today, rather than look to his mother for financial help, Cornelius helps support her.
What’s this got to with race? It goes back to the postwar suburbs and the government policies and subsidies that made them possible — and guaranteed they’d be segregated.
A set of New Deal programs led by the Federal Housing Administration allowed millions of average white Americans to own a home for the first time. Down payment requirements were reduced from up to 50 percent to 10 or 20 percent and the time to pay off the remaining mortgage was extended from five years to 30 years.
Federal investigators evaluated 239 regions; communities with a mere one or two black families were deemed ipso facto financial risks ineligible for low cost home loans. Government appraisal maps colored those communities red — hence the term “redlining.”
Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans; more than 98 percent went to whites. Of the 350,000 new homes built with federal support in Northern California between 1946 and 1960, fewer than 100 went to African Americans.
Barred from purchasing a home in the new suburbs, Cornelius’ parents had to buy in one of the few communities where black people could live.
Today, according to New York University economist Edward Wolff, the typical white family has eight times the net worth of the typical black family. Even when they make the same income, white families have over twice the wealth — much of that gap due to home equity and family inheritance.
Many whites who grew up middle class in the suburbs like to think we got where we are today on merit — hard work, intelligence, pluck and maybe a little luck. We wonder why non-white parents didn’t just work hard, buy a home and pass on the appreciated value like our parents did. We tend to be blind to how the playing field has been — and continues to be — tilted to our advantage.
Racism doesn’t just come dressed in white sheets or voiced by skinheads, but lies in institutions that, like the FHA, have quietly and often invisibly channeled America’s wealth, power, and status disproportionately to white people, giving us a head start in life. As Ohio State University law professor John A. Powell observes: “The slick thing about whiteness is that whites are getting the spoils of a racist system without themselves being personally racist.”
I sit on my back deck, enjoying the blooms of the wisteria and reading an e- mail from my daughter about her post-college plans. My daughter certainly had nothing to do with slavery or Jim Crow. But the past still helps shape her future thanks to the many advantages my parents, me, and now she, have accrued thanks to generations of racial preferences — for white people.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/REAL-LIFE-Affirmative-Action-for-Whites-The-2605633.php#ixzz2NqQCRjL9
Source: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/REAL-LIFE-Affirmative-Action-for-Whites-The-2605633.php
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@ Matari
This is exactly what Church’s doesn’t get. In his mind the entire gap is due to the fact that White people just work much harder and don’t speak Ebonics, even amongst themselves in unguarded moments.
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It’s fascinating that Black families who make the same income have so little savings compared to White families… Again… It must be bad money management.
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King
“This is from “No Name in the Street” (1972) by James Baldwin. It seems as true to me now as the day when I first read it years ago:
White children, in the main, and whether they are rich or poor, grow up with a grasp of reality so feeble that they can very accurately be described as deluded – about themselves and about the world they live in. White people have managed to get through entire lifetimes in this euphoric state, but black people have not been so lucky: a black man who sees the world the way John Wayne, for example, sees it would not be an eccentric patriot, but a raving maniac. … People who cling to their delusions find it difficult, if not impossible, to learn anything worth learning: a people under the necessity of creating themselves must examine everything, and soak up learning the way the roots of a tree soak up water. As people still held in bondage must believe that “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make ye free”.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/james-baldwin-on-deluded-white-people/
********
Some things just don’t change. They just get passed on from one generation to the next!
What’s sad/tragic is that Churchs’ view is the same exact sentiment of MILLIONS of whites that hold fast to the WHITE RACIAL FRAME. The irony/insult to injury is that blacks are NOW deemed racist.
SMH.
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@ Matari
Ah! But what makes you sure that Marari is White?
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Oops! Sorry Matari, I meant to ask you what made you sure that Church’s is White?
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I need not be certain if Churchs is white, or not. What’s clear is that Churchs’ steadfastl POSITION is that of a whiteness apologist/defender. He/she *might* even be Randy (or some other previously banned troll in disguise) for all I know.
One needn’t be WHITE to be an adversary.
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@ Matari
The reason I ask is because I noticed Church’s statements of the Language Myths #13 thread. He says that he went to a ghetto school and was exposed to ebonics…
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/03/01/language-myth-13-black-children-are-verbally-deprived/#comment-164256
But then he says that his parents didn’t use that kind of language either
But if his parents were White, then why would he have to explain that they didn’t speak like that? And how would their not speaking like that disprove the “legacy of slavery crap?”
Reading that, I asked him this question:
to which he never gave an answer…
It just seems… curious.
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@ Matari, thank you for clearing a point about the creation of indivisual wealth. I am not sure, but I think if Church just actually looks at WWII before and after government policies and subsidies he or she will see the difference. I am sure that with his understanding of how interest works he should be able to figure out that the bigger the lead you have the more money you make. I mean you can out right prove that if you start investing in your twenties just a little it is still better than pour a bunch of money in your thirties. You still will have more money with less work. This is how the financial system works the system that was set up by the people in the majority.
What I always feel sad about is that in the twenties you would have found more black people investing in stock. Yet after the crash most of those New Deal plans went toward whites who could then put it back into the market was as a lot of blacks never recieved the compensation.
@ King, you can find quite a few blacks who hold the same position as Church. I grew up in all white schools my teachers would spout that crap out like they were a water faucet. It took a lot of study and travel to get that kind of thinking out of my head. This is all looking down finance and history. I love how people say what are you mad about slavery is over. My Grandmother can tell you of getting beaten by the cops walking home after King visited Chicago. Why would I possibly be angry about that, I wonder.
I am sure whites have invented a lot but so has every other ethnic group around. Now if you want to compare it to European inventions I like what one Native American chief said. You take our children to your schools and when they come back they cannot even do the simpliest of task. I paraphrased but I am going to sum it up what makes your invention necessary for me. It wasn’t too long ago that we were just making for our own people and that was fine. It worked, and we were doing our thing. Just you have made this present situation and now we need your things more than our own. I think he ended it with “I am sad for my children our Gods have turn a deaf ear.”
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@ King of Trouble
I think that one of the great fallacies of the White Inventor Argument is that technology and intelligence are the same thing.
I have to stop and think about that.
So-called “race realists” like to look at the development of technology in a given country or region as the measuring rod for group intelligence, because they see the two things as equivalent. But think about it. Even in an advanced country, you can have a brilliant lawyer who does everything by hand and doesn’t use computers. You may have a brilliant author who writes amazing literature but who can barely trouble shoot simple issues in MS Word. You may have an incredible actor, or an amazing musician. Do we assume that all of those people are less intelligent than our office I.T. guy simply because they aren’t as practiced in technology?
So then, why do we think that countries must be developing a certain level of technology in order for the people who live there to be deemed intelligent? Technology goes with certain goals and a certain mindset in a given society. But people can be just as intelligent who live simpler lives and have different goals. It’s a case of the West making their own standard THE STANDARD by which to judge everyone else. But people are not going to meet a standard that they are not even reaching for or aware of. Nevertheless, there is no reason to assume that if they did begin to reach in that directions that their minds would be incapable of achieving the new goal.
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Neeva
Apparently your knowledge is woefully lacking! Here are a few more facts YOU should be aware of:
http://redsociology.com/2012/02/23/when-affirmative-action-was-white/
*Churchs*
Are YOU a white person?
@ King
*Necessity* is the mother of invention. Not intelligence.
If whiteness was as -bright- as some seem to think, then whiteness would use its vaunted intellect toward living in HARMONY with ALL humans and nature. But then, intelligence and WISDOM are two totally different things. Apparently, intellectuals can do some really stupid/foul sh_t!
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Matari, excellent thing you brought in showing how white privilage plays out…we white people should be able to look at the truth and just admit it exists..its hard to go ahead on any diologue if we just cant admit some basic truths
King “or an amazing musician. Do we assume that all of those people are less intelligent than our office I.T. guy simply because they aren’t as practiced in technology?”
King, you can take that statement, water it, nurture it, flush it out, blow it up, and pull it out and hammer bludgeon it over the race realists heads relentlessly until they are black and blue…make it a nuclear weapon…they just dont get it…they need to be reminded of that at every turn and nook and cranny that they try to hide aceivements of black Americans
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As a white person, there is nothing demeaning, losing, submissive or weak about admitting that white privilege exists..its being in denial and disconnect to not acknowledge that it exists..its just plain reality and truth of how history has gone down…to be able to look at the truth about it is a sign of strength
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There is no “white privilege”.That is a scam.It might also be called an excuse.For if non-whites fail,they can blame it on “racism” or “privilege” rather than lack of ability.I will say it once again.Despite the prevailing academic and political dogma on race,the disparity of achievement that exists and has always existed between the races is because of the distinct and measurable differences between them,not racism or oppression or privilege or whatever.Everyone knows this,but few have the courage to say it.You people need to get off the “racism”,”white privilege”,and “white supremacy” nonsense and see the elephant in the room.The elephant being that there is no inborn racial equality and that the differences between the races will ALWAYS keep them from achieving at the same level,regardless of how much intervention is used to create the illusion of equality.If there were in fact this white privilege,would admitting it or eradicating it or erasing its “legacy” improve the success outcomes of blacks or other non-whites? No.Because IT isnt the problem.Racial differences would still be there prohibiting equality of outcome.Even if whites submit and abdicate,which they basically have already done,does this change the outcome for non-whites? No,and it wouldnt no matter how many generations passed.
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@Neeva
Notice not once in my post did I mention acism”,”white privilege”,and “white supremacy when bringing up the achievements of blacks that you are so quick to dismiss. Yet you continue to ramble on about this in your delusion. Why is this might I ask?
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Or so your derranged heroes keep telling you, but it’s not true. The reason that “race realism” is not taught in a single major university around the world is that it’s BAD SCIENCE. So how do you cover for a universally rejected bad idea? You try to make it sound like the real reason that no one accepts it is because of some conspiracy. But like I’ve demonstrated up thread, every crank and kook on the entire Internet with a nutty bit of science to sell is saying the same stupid excuse… “They just won’t say it because they’re too politically correct!”
You can keep coming to anti-racism websites and repeating the same inane nonsense, but as you can see, nobody is to listening to you. If you can’t get the mainstream academics to accept you, then how do you think you’re going to get Black people to agree with you? It’s a waste of time. But please, keep chasing your tail. Obviously you have nothing more productive to do with your time.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbs_-BobfOs)
So , Ive known this cut, “Gingerbreadboy” by Jimmy Heath, from “Miles Smiles” since about 1966,it was at one of the singers I backed up parents record collections and I dug Miles and put it on, it was really above my head, but I knew it was something deep and had an atraction I couldnt quite explain..in a couple of years and hearing some more advanced modern jazz, I really came back to this cut with a lot of passion and aprecietion…
It is actualy a groundbreaking record by a groundbreaking group from a groundbreaking leader. For one, it swings so so hard, I mean up your scalp swinging that you just dont see every day in jazz…its using the most advanced western ideas in harmony and filtering them through the blues…but pushing that western harmony into a much more black expresion because of the blues , with a modal aproach that abandons more chord changes for a more open sound ,to express without thinking of a chord change comeing up, and the heavy and I do mean heavy swing…just listen to the drummer, Tony Williams and the incredible bass of Ron Carter….
But, check it out also, the incredible piano playe, Herbie Hancock, isnt playing one chord !! He lays out on MIles and Wayne’s solo , and then, on his solo, he only plays single notes !! on the piano !! a chord instrument…Yes, other jazz musicians were experimenting this way, but, the swing is so heavy and defining on this cut that it is bracing and breath taking…
And , you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of universities of higher learning and music schools that study Miles Davis and this group, but, not “Gingerbreadboy” in great detail, and this group is known as one of the classic jazz groups of all time
Well, about 40 years later, always practicing with this cut , for swing exercise and ear training following their ideas, I am trying to get why I keep getting off at some points…for me, after the original theme at the beginning, it goes off into some heavy swing , with kind of no form….but, after all that time, I started realising , they are just playing on the form all the way through which , from the beginning is a 12 bars implying a blues form and then a 4 bar tag…so 16 bars in all…which blew my mind, they are soloing that heavy swing with the most advanced ideas of western concepts and blues, keeping that form…if you listne , the form in MIles solo , 12 bars with a 4 bar tag, at
0:42, 0:57, 1:11, 1:25,1:39,1:53,2:07, 2:21,2:35wayne solos 2:48 3:01,3:16 (listen to the bass state the tag four gars after the 12 with a descending line at 3:26) 3:30, 3:43 etc etc etc
I mean it took me 40 years to break through to the other side of the genius of these musicians, 40 years…and universities dont even get into this, I called one of my vereran jazz warrior collegues in New York who knows exactly this cut and MIles, and, guess what, he didnt realise it, we are on the phone long distance and Im pointing out these solos on the form and he realises it too…I mean this is advanced stuff….stuff of genius
stuff of innovation, invention, that will be studied long after many pop artists will be forgoten, because it has enourmous depth…the kind that can open up secrets 40 years later …this is profound…spiritual in a non dogmad secular way, as valuable as any science or math genius, and massive aceivements , andrecognisd all over the world
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Wrong.Race realism isnt taught because the now corrupted educational system and its supporters have a vested interest in perpetuating the racial equality myth and wish to suppress any evidence that would expose it.It isnt bad science,its common sense.I think you people know its the truth but cant or wont admit it to yourselves.We can observe,for example,what happens when the prop of affirmative action and lowered academic standards is taken away and black performance and enrollment rates go down,or when countries are turned over to black rule and descend into chaos,corruption and bankruptcy.Is this a coincidence,or the black nature,rooted in genetics?
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@ Neeva
“I think you people know its the truth but cant or wont admit it to yourselves”–Funny how I was thinking this very thing about you.
“We can observe,for example,what happens when the prop of affirmative action and lowered academic standards is taken away and black performance and enrollment rates go down,or when countries are turned over to black rule and descend into chaos,corruption and bankruptcy.Is this a coincidence,or the black nature,rooted in genetics?”—Yet white folks these supposed bad areas like flies to sh*t. Let’s take for example mexico. The water is bad, there is cartel, blah blah blah….(enter white college students)…Whoa it’s spring break.
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Neeva, you are correct. I’ve tried to read through many of these, and find something interesting. There are some written that use what most would consider “big” words, but they are used incorrectly, and not logical. They have been given these words like “radicalized,” etc. The truth is the white man invented machines necessary for the Industrial Revolution. Where would we be if the USA still had only the native Indians? If this was an unknown area? Why are there very large land masses over the world that are backward and poor? I’m glad they industrialized this place, so our fore fathers could come over here and later we could have jobs, and not have to stay on the farms working all day. Romney would have gotten us out of debt in ten years…woe is America later, you will see. Every person and race has some gifts, but there are some people in the USA who should never vote…they just are not informed.
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@ JoAnne Braley
“Every person and race has some gifts, but there are some people in the USA who should never vote…they just are not informed.”—Can I safely say you will be shredding your voter registration card?
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@ Neeva
“Wrong.Race realism isnt taught because the now corrupted educational system and its supporters have a vested interest in perpetuating the racial equality myth and wish to suppress any evidence that would expose it.”—Wrong because of that were the case then we would actually hear about African American inventors in school or even Asian inventors, but no we just hear about whites and learn the truth was we are in college or out of the country.
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correction if
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Sigh.
Quotes like the one above from Neeva, and JoAnne Braley’s inane diatribe about the Industrial Revolution completely ignore both history and contemporary economic realities. Some of the main reasons that people of color are in the U.S. (as well as other areas of the world where there are large white populations), is because WE DO THE WORK. Despite all their supposed knowledge and abilities, whites don’t, can’t, won’t work as efficiently or effectively as the various brown people who inhabit the planet. It’s why they import workers, and at the same time also export jobs: they need a steady supply of brown hands, bodies, eyes, and minds to actually do the things that need to be done.
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we hear about non-white inventions all the time,sharina,particularly during those months celebrating a specific ethnicity.The problem is that alot of the claims made are false or embellished to make the invention sound more significant than it really is.We still hear claims about blacks having invented things we know they didnt.One african-american museum in macon,ga.hands out fliers to children claiming that blacks invented the pyramids,paper,chess,medicine,the alphabet,and civilization.This is the sort of nonsense i`m talking about.
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Good grief! Are you people for real?
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“The UNFAC team of culture researchers- linguists, anthropologists, historians, IT specialists, folklorists – led by Prof. Acholonu, are conducting research aimed at unearthing the hidden meanings of ancient Nigerian rock art/inscriptions known as Ikom Monoliths of Cross River State, which thanks to Acholonu’s research findings and nomination application, have now been listed by the World Monument Fund in its 2008 list of 100 Most Endangered Sites as “a ancient form of writing and visual communication … dating before 2000 B.C.” Acholonu is seeking international support and funding for her monoliths research by which she has proved that Sub-Saharan African Blacks possessed an organized system of writing before 2000 B.C. (more than 4000 years ago) and a Pre-History recorded on 350 stones which she and her team of researchers are now transcribing and translating. (See The Gram Code of African Adam, the first in a series on the monoliths research.) She believes that the contents of these stone records will prove that Black Africans were the midwives of human civilization, and will change human history as we know it.”
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English words with Igbo roots:
English words
Eve (Ava – ‘Living Soul/God as Mother, Creative Force’)
Nature (Nne Atu Ora – Mother of the Living Word of the Sun God)
Adam (Adaa m – ‘I have fallen’)
Order (Ora dere – cosmically established/god ordained)
Life (Ele ife – ‘Light of Ele’)
Love (Ele ovu/ofu – ‘Divine unity/oneness’)
Oracle (Ora okala – ‘Divination’)
Caesar (Ichie Eze Ora – ‘Most High Sun King’)
Faith (Ifu etu –‘to focus on divine order’)
Chief (ichie efu – ‘Non-initiate community head’)
King (ikenga – ‘anchor of manly force/power’)
Queen (akwu nne – ‘nest of mother essence’)
Equal/equilibrium (akwu ele – ‘divine balance’)
Mind (Omi ndu- ‘Depth of spirit’)
Human (oha mmuo ana – ‘community of earth-dwelling spirits’)
Meet (etymologically derived from Old English moot – ‘gathering of elders’ – Igbo ime otu–‘gathering of elders’)
Choir (Igbo Ukwe Ora ‘Group of singers’)
Cock (Igbo Okuko ‘cock’)
Animal (Igbo anumanu ‘animal’)
Say (Igbo saa ‘to say’)
Marine (Igbo miri ‘water’), etc, etc.
These are from a study by Professor Acholonus
The Igbo of Nigeria and Dogan of Mali both had great influences on Egyption culture, including words for Horace, Osiris , understanding star and equinox rotations of 26 thousand years cycles
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The conclusions are specious at best,B.R..I`m afraid its more black straw grasping.If any of this were true,we would expect to see evidence of it in today`s african black societies,but we dont.I will grant you this.These blacks had some intuitive but primitive understanding of the natural world,but they would have been incapable of actually formulating theory or developing practical technology of any kind.Again,the bottom line is that there is no racial equality.The races ARE different in intelligence,problem-solving ability,etc.No amount of wishful thinking or artificial intervention can alter this fact.
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http://books.google.com.br/books?id=ZMlQ6jIhuwMC&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=keith+waters+gingerbreadboy+miles+davis&source=bl&ots=OGiRqcjd8I&sig=qqplD18KuA84Z2XRYbYdgi44t-c&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ei=2hFLUZ2RKYPW0gHW3oHQDA&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=keith%20waters%20gingerbreadboy%20miles%20davis&f=false
Neeva, this would be quantum physics for you…go ahead and try and read it, but, you,and most people walking the street have no idea of the leval of genius represented here…yet, you see scholars disescting it, studying it, and letting us all know that this is some of the highest leval of American culture developed ever..nothing short of genius
Yes, here it is right here , lessons from ancient black Africans ,that come all the way down into today , manifesting in black Americans today, a force and power that will be studied many years into the future
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Click to access mto.12.18.1.stover.pdf
here is more analysis of this genius Im talking about above, again, I dont expect you to be able to understand one word of this, but,…you see, intelligent people discuss the contributions and genius of these black Americans, this is not up for discusion, this is actual fact and reality , there is nothing you can say that alters this truth that these black Americans were operating on a very high leval of genius and innovated and invented and advanced American culture
this is on the leval of quantum physics and is as valuable to the world as any science
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The races ARE different in intelligence,problem-solving ability,etc.No amount of wishful thinking or artificial intervention can alter this fact.
Can the Borg alter this fact? Discuss!
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“Neeva,
We still hear claims about blacks having invented things we know they didnt.One african-american museum in macon,ga.hands out fliers to children claiming that blacks invented the pyramids,paper,chess,medicine,the alphabet,and civilization.This is the sort of nonsense i`m talking about.”
Linda says,
and you repeating your racist crap over and over doesn’t make it true either, Neeva
I know that “to learn something new”, then repetition is the key … but you were taught lies and your continuous chanting doesn’t turn your lies to historical facts.
Cultural appropriation, copying, and stealing is not considered inventing and that’s one thing your white European forefathers did quite well to assist them with their “inventions” ….
Why are you not honest about the things your white forefathers did invent, such as: they created fake, racial categories like “caucasian” — so that they could justify claiming black and brown peoples accomplishments as part of “the white race” …nothing but a bunch of dishonest thieves
you race realist are so disturbed and delusional, that you are even trying to co-opt and steal the identity of the north Africans.
because the Egyptians aren’t now and never, ever were “White” (no matter what the American government says) …. they are Africans
so Sorry, white people DID NOT invent: the pyramids, paper, medicine, chess, the alphabet, and did not have the 1st great civilization(s)….so you race realists can let that go as well
…trying to borrow, steal, co-opt, or “appropriate” African and Asian history doesn’t make it European or “White” just because you delusional fools want to try to make yourselfs feel better.
“White” in western terminology means your cave-dwelling “European” ancestors who were still dropping dead like flies until the Africans, Native Americans, and Asians taught your thieving forefathers how to use “real” medicine.
keeping chanting your fake race theories to yourself, I hope they keep you warm at night.
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Right on, Linda. And not only taught them about medicine, but how about agriculture, metallurgy, astronomy, and mathematics, too.
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@ Neeva
Not sure where you live but the talk about AA inventors or even Asian inventors is obsolete. Most only really learn about it in college.
And what makes you believe they are false? What proof do you have that they are not true? I hear ignorant individuals like you all the time make that claim but not one has provided a link or anything to back it up. Just a bunch of ramblings similar to those of individuals in the looney bin.
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Neeva
The conclusions are specious at best,B.R..I`m afraid its more black straw grasping.If any of this were true,we would expect to see evidence of it in today`s african black societies,but we dont.I will grant you this.These blacks had some intuitive but primitive understanding of the natural world,but they would have been incapable of actually formulating theory or developing practical technology of any kind.Again,the bottom line is that there is no racial equality.The races ARE different in intelligence,problem-solving ability,etc.No amount of wishful thinking or artificial intervention can alter this fact.
It’s funny. White inventions are proof that white people – collectively – are superior. Black people never invented anything. Races exist, are different and I’m a member of a superior race.
The only wishful thinking I constantly see in the blogosphere is the hope that races exist and white people are superior. Therefore, I must be superior! Horray for white lies! I’m not racist! (Hysterical laughter)
I dunno whether to laugh or cry.
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JoAnne Bradley
Neeva, you are correct. I’ve tried to read through many of these, and find something interesting. There are some written that use what most would consider “big” words, but they are used incorrectly, and not logical. They have been given these words like “radicalized,” etc. The truth is the white man invented machines necessary for the Industrial Revolution. Where would we be if the USA still had only the native Indians? If this was an unknown area? Why are there very large land masses over the world that are backward and poor? I’m glad they industrialized this place, so our fore fathers could come over here and later we could have jobs, and not have to stay on the farms working all day. Romney would have gotten us out of debt in ten years…woe is America later, you will see. Every person and race has some gifts, but there are some people in the USA who should never vote…they just are not informed.
You’re a conservative, aren’t ya?
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Brothawolf,this is not about hoping that races exist so whites once again rise to the top,this is about exposing the myths of the egalitarians,liberals and anti-racists about racial equality and white “racism”.That race and racial differences exist is already established.Now,the next step is making it mainstream and abolishing the current racial policies which dont work and also abolishing the religion of political correctness in academia which permits such fanciful theories about black greatness in prehistory to be promoted.
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Just a minute, Neeva, I didnt just say that black Americans innovated and invented and were instrumental in building American culture, I brought in definitive unrefutable proof of that genius and innovation
Until you can address the proof I brought in, you are just streaming hot air
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http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/igbo/westafricanorigin.htm
you sluffed off the information about words I brought in as “specious”
I think you need read the author’s much more in depth paper on this
If you can sluff this off, you are in serious denial
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@Neeva
And once again you have no proof that blacks have not invented any of those inventions? How can you hope to expose this “truth” when you have no proof of it?
Oh that is right??? There is none. You just are having a hard time accepting the reality of black contributions. You ignore B.R. (a white man) who is providing you with facts and evidence to his claim because you can not take it or stand actual facts. You ignored Linda because you can not stand the hard cold truth of reality. You believe blacks are delusional yet it has not stopped you from a daily visit.
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Neeva you seem caught in the forest of blaring media. Since Africa is a continent and not a country you might be surprise to know plenty of African countries are doing well. Infact many are enjoying investments from Asian countries such as China and Japan.
Did you know that an African architect made a building to mimic termites because of the airation. It cuts down on the cost of air conditioning. On the thought of if Native Americans still own their lands where would we be. Maybe just maybe we wouldn’t have cut down the world fishing population to an all time low. Maybe we wouldn’t be poisoning the 1% of drinking water we have. Maybe we wouldn’t be tearing this planet up for exotic minerals and destroying the planet the only one we have by the way. The world may be worst off or better that we shall never know. The European cultural attitudes have spread all over this planet. There are a lot things I like computers, and faster lines of communication but if we never knew about these things we would not miss them.
Now lets go back to a time in Rome when they use to say something new comes out of Africa each day, oh that silly Aristole. Man he makes me laugh silly boy. Not to mention that China and Mongolia made many things. It just tears me to pieces to think about the first earthquake detector, rocket launcher, and various other things that must be fantasy.
I think I sit back in this imaginary world were nothing of importances was made by anybody but white people.
I look back to those time when Europe had serfs and the upper class thought everyone except for them was dumb. Of course those dumb peasants are there to serve what other use do they have. Hell, we can even band them from hunting or fishing in land we claim. Oh those fun times when anyone could go jacquerie. Because of course the ruling class thought everyone in Europe was a genius.
I go back to reading my history book but if you would like to revisit some fantasy world, I do so much like dragons.
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I see not only delusion and wishful thinking about black “genius” on this blog,i see also alot of blaming of white people.If white people hadnt done this or this to the poor blameless inoffensive man of color,how wonderful things would be.But because of the agenda against whites there has been alot of exaggeration,distortion and fabrication on this front.
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^ Because you don’t read, you don’t research, and you don’t even debate. You just keep playing the same old broken record that you have been programmed to repeat over and over again. You have a blind religious faith that White people are superior, You prop up that faith based on a universally rejected form of pseudo-science called “race realism.” But conveniently, you’ve been spoon fed the idea that the larger scientific community doesn’t accept these theories only because they are following some ideological agenda which prevents them from admitting the real truth.
So basically, there is no evidence that you will accept to dissuade you from your own self-serving religious belief. There is no debate. You’re not convincing anybody here so why continue playing the broken record? The answer—hatred. It’s the only way left for you to try and “strike back” at the Black menace! I’ll just keep telling them that they’re inferior to White people! That will reach them! Lol!
But nobody really cares about your feeble, unsupported opinions. We’ve all heard these kind of crackpot ideas before, so it’s not going to make any impact.
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Neeva,
I take that as a yes. I see you’re also a racist…er, race realist, is that correct?
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@ Brothawolf
Oddly enough I find Neeva quite funny.
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No Brothawolf,
It’s all unicorns and fairies for that one.
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Folks, this ‘Neeva’ person is indeed comical. Constantly harping on the same meme of black inferiority serves to make Neeva feel good about their self(I don’t know if Neeva is male or female, perhaps both, who cares?) Neeva and company spout off this torrent of faeces because; I). it literally makes them feel good about themselves; 2). They can abdicate any responsibility for any historical wrongs and white supremacy by attributing their treatment of blacks based on ‘biological and IQ’ differences; in other words there is nothing that can be done for it! ‘Neeva’s’ ideas and polemical writings should be mocked as it puts me in mind of MAD magazine, only MAD magazine is done with more intelligence, something Neeva doesn’t possess, unless you consider f#rting in a wind tunnel ‘intelligent!
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Neeva is like some sort of caricature sprung to life. It’s a bit funny how they act, in a very “makes me weep for humanity’s future” sort of way.
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brothawolf,a race-realist is not a racist.They simply accept that races are intrinsically different with different capabilities.King,its interesting that you refer to programming and blind religious faith.That is a better description of the so-called “anti-racist”,like the folks here.I`m not repeating myself because of hatred.That is the domain of anti-racists.
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Neeva, that is still racism. What you believe is that certain races are inferior or superior in certain fields, and that the differences are biological, not cultural. That is a pretty solid definition of racism.
It’s not enough to look to other races and say,”You people are very good at harvesting agriculture, or serving coffee, but please leave all the thinking and ruling to us.” That does’t get you a free pass from the prison of racist thinking.
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Neeva,
You would be hilarious if this material was new, but if a comic tells the same jokes over and over, the comic becomes predictable, boring and no longer humorous. Even you’re spacing after commas and periods isn’t funny.
Neeva, you repeat yourself because you want it to be true. Yet, deep in your heart, you know that you are indeed a racist, but hate to be called that. To call yourself a race realist is a cop out to avoid from admitting what you really are, among other things.
You say you accept that there is such a thing as race and that you except it. The truth is that that’s what you want because there’s something about you that you cant to compensate. You repeat that blacks haven’t invented anything significant to mankind, but you know that to be false deep down. You also know that most of the so-called white inventions are based on inventions of black civilizations, the same ones you don’t believer were as “great” as your European civilizations.
ou portray yourselves as these truth-telling soldiers for the endangered white race with not ounce of hate in your hearts. That is a tired joke. You so-called race realists are nothing but a cult of pantophobic, low-level thinking whiners who wish to live in a planet of white people.
This is why so many people are laughing at you. You want to separate yourself from the world, the real world. You will condemn the history of any achievements or accomplishments by blacks as being wrong, according to just you as far as the comments go. And you are just a sad stereotype of race realists themselves.
Neeva, if you’re serious, give it up. You’re just making people laugh at you for being such a yutts. But if you’re joking, I must suggest some new material.
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Neeva, you believe in HBD because it means you don’t have to stand up and be counted as just a person, but as a White Person (Esteemed Member of the Great White Race). You need this, because you’re so lacking as just yourself. Therefore you are chasing this elevated corporate race identity to make yourself more than you really are. If you were to give up this stupid superior race fantasy, then there would be nothing significant about you at all, and that is the real root of your repetitious actions here.
Now in order to believe this nonsense, you have to support a discredited theory that the entire scientific community says is utter rubbish. But of course, there is always a certain percentage of fools who will believe in almost anything as long as you create enough blogs and websites about it and can get 2 or 3 deranged misfits with a PhD or MD after their names to back it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories
What you do not realize is that you are just talking from within a bubble of idiots—just like the ones who don’t believe in the Moon landings, or the people who think the world is flat (see The Flat Earth Society) and any other number of other junk science theories. But you will never see that because of your own need to believe it based on compensating for your personal weaknesses.
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@Neeva
Race realist is a modern day term for racist. You don’t have to flat out say that you are racist or hide behind the sheets anymore to show your racist actions or words.
You believe that you are somehow superior to the Black and minority commenters just because you have White skin. Well everyone is equal in the eyes of God and I am sure you don’t believe that all.
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@ King
Applause. That is exactly what I was going to say, but it does not need my repeat when you put it so eloquently.
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discredited theory? oh please,king.Everyone knows the races are different.One need not have a PhD to see the fact.Even a few black academics accept it.The reason its so important to accept it is that it will be impossible to formulate effective racial policy without it.Currently,under anti-racist policy,we have a one-size-fits-all curriculae that disregards these differences and which necessarily must lower standards to accomodate genetically-based disparities in academic performance.There is nothing “white” or pathologically racist about recognising these facts,its just hard reality.
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@ Neeva
People are different. Some excel and some do not. It is always the people who do not excel that hold on to these ideas of a superior race. They feel so unaccomplished in their life that they must find some accomplishment by convincing themselves that their race is some how superior.
Also most countries consider America to be full of morons. Educational wise we are behind compared to other countries. The funny part is we are all judge based on white American standard of education and intelligence. How is that for a laugh?
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Neeva,
Why don’t you just come out and admit what your tirade is really about? This isn’t about race. This isn’t about white racial superiority, especially when it concerns inventions. This isn’t even about how pathetic black people are by design as you say.
This is about you, what you seriously lack, your need to latch on to white inventors and accomplishments because apparently you don’t have any of your own to be proud of, and your “black people are inferior” shtick we’ve heard a hundred thousand times. Judging by your writing alone, I say it’s a good indicator of a bad disposition.
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@BrothaWolf
Good job however I wouldn’t comment back at Neeva after this. You are right.
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@ Sharina, you are being nice. Once upon a time when I was kid I would have to represent the whole black race. Why are blacks and stupid questions like that, but now that I am and have lived in different countries people think we are morons, they wonder why Americans are too stupid to travel to other countries, why we are a first nation with no universal health care, really the British, Australian, French, and other European countries do try my patiences about the good ole U.S. of A. It is not just them Chileans, Peruvians, Argentinas think we are idiots too. There are some days I think work, why do I put up with it. Not like any country is perfect.
Yet comes Neeva with the same old tired spiel and I think to myself. It is tiring. The worst thing about it is that if Neeva is actually a woman she should really but claiming that white men did everything while she was only suited for cleaning and cooking and barring those babies. Even now many claim that women are not good in maths and that is why there are not so many female engineers. Are you really going to stand behind that thinking Neeva? Please use the grey matter between you ears. If you are counting things in white people achievement it really is only white men, because as they say in Victorian times women are too delicate and emotional to think wisely enough to work in those strong math skills. Now I think it is balony but we can use the evidence in the same way you twist the evidence against blacks.
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@King
”Once upon a time when I was kid I would have to represent the whole black race. Why are blacks and stupid questions like that,”
As a young person, who lives in a small racist town, I do find myself in situations where many Caucasians ask me why Blacks do this and that. I find it annoying and uncomfortable. Blacks aren’t a monolith group. Blacks are people too who all have different interests and ideas. We don’t all think alike yet many people especially Whites think so.
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@ Legion, it is not working on the at civilization what I was working on was the imagine a world without whites and where would we be.
As if a pastoral life was bad or even hunting gathering societies are horrible. When I was young in High School I heard the same sort of Non-sense from Bob Jones III, because Bob Jones university is where they sent most of their kids. Our text books where published by them and they would say science for christians and these text books were just as bad. It could be I am associating something that isn’t there. I consider it a possibility but having years of this crap the mere smell of it puts on my spidey sense.
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Neeva, I give you hard core examples of invention, innovation, aceivements, from black Americans and black Africans from below the Sahara, that affected the whole world, from ancient times until now, from differant areas of arts and sciences, and all you can do is dribble the answers you did?
You and the other race realists are like a couple of old people sitting on the porch, telling themselves how the world works inspite of hard reality refuting exactly what they are saying
In the face of the hard core facts I brought in, you keep going on your rant for nothing…you cant even dispute what I have brought in….you just ignore it and continue with the drivel
You race realists can beleive what ever you want, I am happy to know the truth…..that means I can come from a position of strength, not weakness….your arguments are very weak
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@ Legion
“As far as I can see no one is going to “win” the discussion of the last few days.”—I don’t think anyone is attempting to “win” it but rather put some valid truth on the table.
“Not one of you (as far as I can see, I may have missed a comment) asked her/him for a clarification, would it not help to do so? I just see a swirling discussion that will go nowhere and nothing definitive. A few of you know your history quite well; why not get a specific from Neeva and then refute or go where the truth leads to?”—Actually if you read some of her earlier comments you will be very clear in terms of what she is referring to. Mainly the fact that blacks did not have any type of civilization and it was whites who gave it to them. Also anytime she has been asked any real questions she refuses to answer them and proceeds with psycho babble.
“We don’t know what the museum people are calling “black.” We don’t know if they mean non white=black. “—There is only one museum that I am aware of that she could be referring to and that is Tubman African American Museum. On top of that she was also very clear on which black she means. I don’t think an African American museum would be displaying other categorized black inventions.
“I don’t think the ridiculing of Neeva is the effective path this time around.”—Maybe you don’t but after people have taken time to share some valuable information with her and she ignores it and continues then it shows she is not interested in a respectable discussion.
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@ Legion
There are words I moderate that I tell no one about to kill off trolls who know how to appear at random IP addresses.
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Legion,i made no specific mention or discussion of civilization,nor did i imply genetic inferiority.I merely used the false claims of the tubman african-american museum to illustrate political correctness in action.A few more items on the museum flyer include the doorknob,the mop,curtain rod,peanut butter,and the helicopter.
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@Legion
Good job but Neeva will never wake up. She is set in her racist ways. She is always coming on this site and putting down Blacks to make herself feel better. To me, that is sick!
I do like the information you posted about information about karma and pre colonial Africa. You are right that Black history was covered up by Caucasians for years but why was it so? Why would they cover up the accomplishments of Blacks? Was it to uplift themselves and keep us feeling as if we are nothing?
Honestly I don’t completely get the psyche or mind of racists especially ones like Neeva who deny the existence of Black inventors and accomplishments to make herself feel better about being White.
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Let the MOCKING continue!
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@Legion
Neeva believes in White supremacy and she will never learn that people are equal.
@Neeva
You did imply genetic inferiority and in fact, all of your posts imply that you think that Whites are supreme to Blacks on everything from accomplishments etc. Your ”race realism” really is racism.
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I think someone should tell Neeva that nothing she’s said is remotely unique and that it’s all been said a thousand times by a thousand other trolls. She seems to think she’s some special snowflake coming to benevolently share her infinite knowledge with the lowly masses.
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Scoffing would also be appropriate.
Present participle of scoff (Verb)
1. To Speak about something or someone in a scornful, derisive or mocking tone.
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“Let the MOCKING continue!”
Amen!!!!
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Lol!! ^ See, even the the Chief Mocktress agrees!!!
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@ Legion
“Sharina dear, by now you already know that I’m an opinionated little so and so.”
I know and I personally don’t mind your opinions. If I sound a little testy let me know because I don’t mean to come off that way at all. Most of the time when I do comment it is in the morning after a night of no sleep and leaving the house in 50 degree weather. lol
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Herneith?
Sorry to say but medieval europe didn’t stop inventing. And what comes to chinese inventions, they are recognized and in many cases made more functional like the printing press that a certain german made after looking at a humble winepress.
They might have been very superstiotious in old europe but at least they no longer burn witches like in Africa.
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@ Johanna
I suggest you consult a history book. Turn to the pages on The Inquisition and then read your own statement about Europeans not burning witches. To,the contrary, Europe was a pyre of human as and bone brought in the medieval era. Wake up, honey!
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Ash and bone
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^ Ohh!! And Bulanik comes in and nails it with a much greater level of analysis on so many levels!
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They might have been very superstiotious in old europe but at least they no longer burn witches like in Africa.
Ever hear of the Salem Witch Trials dear? Nice try. Oh and why did you address me in particular? What do witches have to do with this topic? You will have to try better. Next!
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[…] The white inventor argument […]
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Wow…. Inaccuracies abound here.
First of all Ill start with the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard in a while. Why in the world would you assume that the “largest” city would be located in the most advanced civilization? Where do you get that leap from? Furthermore “largest” is rather vague. Do you mean largest population? ( and if so do you stop at city walls if their were any or do you count the surrounding countryside?
Do you mean geographically largest regardless of population? ( again where do you draw the boarders)
Do you mean largest in a metaphorical sense to describe most advanced and/ or tallest architecture?
This is very unclear.
Also you seem to have completely discounted all of South America in your statements of comparison across the “whole world” they also independtly invented and created pyramids, record keeping calenders and mathematics
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There is no white inventor argument,that is purely a concoction of the so-called “anti-racists”.The fact that whites have created the majority of meaningful inventions throughout recorded history is without dispute.It is also necessary to state the fact over and over as long as the war on white people continues.White people must defend themselves against those who demonize them,and one way to do that is to remind them of the technological contributions that whites have made which we all now take for granted.It is also necessary to set the record straight since many politically-correct “educators” have lied and claimed that blacks and other non-whites have invented things that are known to have been invented by the white european.These are the reasons for stating the facts about white inventions,not the reasons concocted by abagond`s fertile imagination;an imagination steeped in all the ideological nonsense about whites being evil racists and oppressors who must forever be blamed and condemned and made to repent over and over for being more successful and prolific as a race than non-whites.
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M-m-m-h. Have you ever read a Chinese textbook?
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Evolutionarily speaking, Black is the oldest race whereas mongoloid is the youngest, with whites in between. Blacks have been in Egypt for as long as human existence and their grand civilization had only started like what, 3150 BC? Mongoloids has just recently evolved and they have settled in the East for much shorter time, and yet their civilization was just as advanced or even more.
Whites aren’t too bad, but they’re also not as impressive as they’d like to believe. The fact that much of northern and western Europe remained primitive during the glory of Greek and Roman Empire says a lot about whether their contributions in the last few centuries were nature or nurture, or both. If anything, the most plausible reason for the sudden growth spurt of Europe starting from the 14th century was due to colonialism and what they have obtained from it. As mentioned before, more inventions leads to even more inventions, and colonialism had most likely lead to the accumulation of other civilizations’ knowledge and discoveries, as well as funding.
And I’m not saying that whites are inferior, they progressed rapidly once knowledge/information are available to them unlike the blacks in Africa. One could argue that blacks have limited access to knowledge in Africa, but how about the ones in America? And people who say that Asians started from the top when they migrated else where only shows their ignorance. Much of Chinese diaspora all over the world started off working as coolies and labourers, and now they’re rich with a high standard of living. We don’t see the same coming from blacks who were once used as slaves in the west.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_diaspora
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^ Mongoloid? Are you still reading from Carleton S. Coon?
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Good post, quick fact check though reveals that Egypt was not the first “civilization.” Which doesn’t really change your argument at all but if you are going to use facts lets at least use true ones, since reality is actually pretty neat.
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Reblogged this on Life in Anglo-America.
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Nobody HATES like FAMILY! 🙂
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abagond
2.If inventions “prove” one part of mankind is better than all the rest, then the Chinese and Egyptians have a way better claim than whites.
——————————————————————————————————-
And Australiopithicus Robustus has everybody beat because he invented bipedalism.
Or was it Homo habilis?
or was it Australiopithicus Afarensis?
or was it Homo Rastafarious Jahgensis? (early weed man)
“you can have it in any color you like as long as its black” — Henry Ford
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You generalizing white people so much in your piece is just about as ignorant and racist as the “inventor argument”. Good day to you.
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https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/bell-hooks-loving-blackness-as-political-resistance/#comment-20356
The person above was super off topic in the bell hooks thread, I read the comment anyway. The fact that a lot of people hate the white inventor argument speaks to, I think, it’s seeming truth. Unless you have a good grip on history or have taken the time to put something like the white inventor argument in it’s proper place, the smooth and seemingly reasonable take of the argument can leave you feeling that any counter argument you make is just a sour grapes cover.
But the point that Abagond makes about the convenient use of “historical context” when it suits white people to take that into account or dismiss it depending on the conversation, is a key way to attack the white inventor argument and have no guilt feelings about covering up sour grapes or some other form of frustration. Good post, which I’ve read a few times before.
@ Abagond
Sorry, I may have asked this before: Is Diamond’s Guns Germs and Steel, mainly an examination of the white inventor argument?
(and thanks for not deleting that “guy’s” comment. that took some restraint, considering he plagiarized it.)
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Also, there are some good remarks by commenter Kiwi, in the Science thread, about basic conditions that are advantageous to thinking about producing good science and actually going ahead and producing good science.
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Also, the suggestion by commenter Bulanik on a book called Crest of the Peacock, seems a good place to go over the history of how technological expertise has developed and or been transmitted to different peoples and different societies.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/01/03/if-you-like-this-blog-you-might-also-like/#comment-196345
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@ Legion
It could be read that way, but it was meant to answer the question of why whites are so rich and powerful. Where many whites would credit genetic or cultural superiority, Diamond says it was mainly a matter of geography and luck:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/guns-germs-and-steel/
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I agree with the racist white people that they are great inventors…they’re great at inventing lies and double standards in order to stay on top. 🙂
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[…] The White Inventor argument. […]
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You can explain White people, and all their actions with the following:
A deep, unexplainable belief that they are meant to save the world, at least change it similarly to how Jesus did. Even in the face of damning evidence otherwise, or on the death bed, this remains unshaken.
A simultaneous, jack-in-the-box style self-hatred, coupled with extreme paranoia.
Sometimes one of these will be more dominant than the other, or they may be running evenly at full-throttle.
Some deal with it better than others. They’re all highly glitch-prone though.
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There was a huge debate between the asians and white in this topic- m.topix.com/forum/asian-american/TQCGDTSC5738D2RPB
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Sort of topically related (whites stealing IP or ideas), I saw this on Facebook about the origin of the Betty Boop cartoon. Fascinating.
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Ah, link fell off… Maybe in brackets?
(https://www.facebook.com/irockjazz/photos/a.152201488175385.34538.144821352246732/767421603320034/?type=1)
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Serious Question. Where these great inventors to build this land without help from POC. Native people save,teach them to survive and witness them eating each other. Look up-Jamestown and fallen Moors of Thanksgiving ritual. I think. Some wp don’t count old world inventions into this modern days. Our inventions are still being use into this New World. Our stuff keep humanity moving and breathing to see tomorrow. Chewstick and fruits is now toothbrush and toothpaste. Nothing new underneath the sun.
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Somebody throw in-Africa got dirty water. You want to know why. Answer. Western World dump trash and toxic waste in their area. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2014/feb/27/agbogbloshie-worlds-largest-e-waste-dump-in-pictures . The African pirates protect the waters and people from the trashmen. The beauty of propaganda is made from movies. They betray them as bad guys
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@ Kiwi
“The Chinese used guns well before Europeans did.”
The invention of gun powder just by itself doesn’t have that much impact. You need a number of technical and tactical inventions for that. It took Europeans 200 years from the first artillery to the supremacy of hand-guns (battle of Pavia 1525). And another 150 years to replace all infantry melee weapons with muskets. These inventions took place in Europe for a reason. Only the Japanese had comparable success in improving the use of guns in the 16th century but than banned their use in 1600, something that could never have happened in Europe.
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Kiwi said:
“Aren’t the whites who say their families never owned slaves the same ones who use the “white inventor argument,” even if their families never invented anything, either?
The difference is that white people in general aren’t asking for special treatment or hand outs because of all the inventions other white people made. (e.g., my ancestors helped invent the airplane, pay me some money)
Many of us just want to be able to openly celebrate our culture the way non-whites are allowed to.
BTW, the cities competing for largest city in the world now include: Mumbai, Delhi, Mexico City, Dhaka, Sao Paolo, Lagos, Jakarta and Calcutta (all top 10 by the estimate I saw, though it really depends on how you define the “city” area). These are hardly the “most advanced parts of the world”.
Also, abagond said: “Yet white people would be nowhere without four Chinese inventions: gunpowder, the compass, paper and the printing press.”
I call BS. So whites could never have developed these on their own, but other races would definitely have come up with cars, trains, planes, computers, all kinds of machines/manufacturing, modern medicine, toilets, running water, skyscrapers, A/C, and pretty much every advanced thing you use on a day to day basis if whites had never shown up? When whites came to the new world, they found the native population hadn’t even invented the wheel… but everyone must be equal above the neck…
(Also, as I see Abagond has looked into previously, Egypt was not a “black” country per se, the way its neighbors to the south were. If someone was 40% black (to use a number Abagond had cited with respect to Egypt–hard to get a definite number, though it is likely that Egyptian rulers were generally lighter skinned than their subjects), they would be considered black in the U.S., but whether their achievements should be labeled “black achievements” seems questionable. Also, I’m sure the Greeks and Romans would appreciate you saying : “before 1500 there were very few white inventions.”)
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@ Kiwi
I agree there is a double standard:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/what-if-whites-talked-about-great-inventions-the-way-they-talk-about-slavery/
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@ Biff
Get a clue. People in the Americas knew about wheels. They made wheeled toys. They did not have wheeled carts because they were not practical: they had no horses or any other large draft animal except in the mountains where wheels would not help.
From the Olmec heads we know they were fully capable of moving tons of rock across 150 km. Since we do not know how they did it, that makes us the backward ones.
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@ Biff
Tokyo is currently the largest city and easily one of the most technologically advanced.
Also-rans like Sao Paulo, etc, were made possible by technological gains made elsewhere (elevators, buses, telephones, water treatment, etc).
In any case, the largest city thing is meant as a rule of thumb, a way to get a rough idea quickly.
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@ Biff
Cars, computers, planes and all that probably would have been invented without Whites. Invention is a human universal and builds on whatever comes before. Whites invented them simply because they were the most technologically advanced once they became possible. In the 1100s all the latest inventions were Chinese because at that point they were the most advanced. Likewise with the Egyptians when they were at their height. And so on. The White Inventor argument makes a big deal of a historical accident.
Most inventions, like wheeled carts or moon rockets, are inevitable. Someone would hit on them sooner or later. A few, like forks, are not. Whites could “take credit” for the un-inevitable ones.
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@ Biff
If Whites were truly better at invention than everyone else, if their current Age of Invention was not a mere accident of history (the right things coming together in Europe and North America after 1500), then they would not be borrowing technology from others (agriculture, paper, flat-screens, etc) because they would have been way ahead of everyone throughout all of history. It would be “Whites invent, others copy” since forever. Instead everyone is copying and inventing.
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@ Kiwi
“The ancient Greeks and Romans never saw themselves as “white”. WASPs obviously didn’t regard them as such when they passed laws restricting the immigration of their descendants to America.”
The 19th-Century Northern Europeans saw the ancient Greeks and Romans as white, but not the contemporary Greeks and Italians. They even invented theories that the superior race of ancient Greeks was replaced by an inferior one and that they only “ripped off” the language.
@ Abagond
“Whites invented them simply because they were the most technologically advanced once they became possible.”
That doesn’t make sense. The thechnological advancement was reached through the inventions (and their advancement and efficent use, the original inventions in itself were often wothless). I agree that some inventions happen necessarily in a certain context, like fire, the wheel, agriculture, artificial irrigation, etc. These are the inventions we have seen to emerge in different places and ages independent from each other. But the step from pre-modern economy to the modern fossil-fuel economy hasn’t and probably couldn’t have happened anywhere than Western Europe. Not because of a few inventions that could have happened anywhere, but because no civilization has ever developed the level of competivness for technology.
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Kiwi:
Blacks also did not have a single monolithic culture, but they mixed in the U.S. and viola! Black culture. Most whites have mixed too, so this is who we are “whites” primarily, rather than ethnic English, Germans, Swedes, etc. When Asians mix more, as in Hawaii, you see a more “Asian” identity develop.
The U.S. used to be an “Anglo” country. The concept that every person from everywhere on earth should be allowed to come on in was certainly not something the Founding Fathers had in mind. Doesn’t mean they didn’t regard the Greeks and Romans as role models in many respects, including as to democracy.
abagond:
I’ve heard the wheels on toys argument before (I took Native American history–with a very guilty white male professor, incidentally). Don’t buy it, since a 10 year old could (and 10 year olds do) make simple toys like that. Maybe the bigger wheel requires thinking about roads and stuff like that.. so the Olmec used probably hundreds of thousands of man hours to move some big stones, because they couldn’t be bothered to build wheels and roads… but “we” are the backward ones, because they didn’t leave any writing describing exactly how they did it.
Yes, Tokyo and New York also made the list of biggest cities, but that’s 2 out of 10. It wouldn’t give you much of a “rule of thumb” if you took those as representative of the other 8 in terms of level of development. (Also, getting Tokyo as the biggest “city”, really depends on how you define “city”.. if you include Yokohama, which is basically part of the same metropolitan area, then it’s even more massive–but other places have a lot of connected sprawl too).
So all achievements can perhaps be boiled down to “historical accident”… nice. Concepts of IQ and intelligence are perhaps also “historical accidents” that can be safely ignored. Slavery was also a “historical accident”, so let it go.
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Biff said: Also, abagond said: “Yet white people would be nowhere without four Chinese inventions: gunpowder, the compass, paper and the printing press.”
I wonder if Abagond didnt mean who the originators of these things were but, simply how they had been taken and abused by whites in the quest for domination of countries/people
Gunpowder – used to instill fear in captives whilst their land is taken over. Weapons in these countries still to primitive and unable to match the might of this type of weaponry
Compass – used to guide Europeans to ‘other’ lands enabling them to return time after time to take over and ‘colonised’ and to get resources to sell for riches
Paper/printing press – helped to spread the word and elevate whites and frequently used to spread propaganda about non whites.
This is clearly very very very basic but wondered if this was more why Abagond chose those 4 specific things….or maybe he just plucked them out of thin air and I am over thinking things lol
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Kiwi said:
“Do IQ and intelligence explain why Europe went through the Dark Ages?”
Only as much as Chinese folks’ even higher IQs explain the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward.
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@ Kartoffel
If the Black Death or the Mongol Hordes had completely wiped out Europe, I think industrialization would have still taken place at some point. Just as the agricultural revolution took place independently in several places, so would the industrial revolution but for the fact that it gives you global reach so that it takes root once and spreads everywhere.
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@ Kartoffel
Maybe so, but that only affects the speed of technological change, not its possibility.
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@ biff
From what I understand, it is completely possible that Europeans could have evolved a higher intelligence in the 35,000 years during which they had more or less branched off from the rest of mankind. It is unlikely but possible. But if so, their amazing new intelligence would have become clear thousands of years ago, not just within the past 500. Instead what we see is them constantly playing catch up, sometimes getting ahead, sometimes falling behind. That means whatever edge they might have in intelligence is slight.
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Why do they never argue that other races would have made just as many, if not more, important inventions if they had been on top?
Why would they? They need these spurious arguments in order to make themselves ‘feel good about themselves’. It also acquits them of any historical guilt or responsibility for their bad treatment of racialized people which continues to this day. A neat trick wouldn’t you say? Biff is exemplifies this type of thinking.
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abagond said:
“But if so, their amazing new intelligence would have become clear thousands of years ago, not just within the past 500. Instead what we see is them constantly playing catch up, sometimes getting ahead, sometimes falling behind. That means whatever edge they might have in intelligence is slight.”
This is an interesting argument. Of course if you believe in evolution, then you believe manking putzed around for many millions of years before they had any type of civiliation whatsoever.
In any case, major ancient cities seem to have first developed in warmer climates. Northern Europe was not the most hospitable environment. Instead, we see the area around the Mediterannean as a starting point (China had it’s own separate development, as did the Americas).
For most of human history, most populations have been pretty close to starvation. It took time to gather the sufficient populations in Europe to go beyond pure subsistence, and the plagues, Mongol invasion, invasion of the Moors, etc. didn’t help much.
Anyway, I never said that white people were the most intelligent on the earth. As you know, I do believe that IQ/intelligence/standardized tests are reasonable accurate predictors of a lot of things. However, I suppose they don’t tell us why the West had its break out in the last 600 or so years, while the Far East did not. Nevertheless, I imagine you believe this breakout would have been equally as possible in Sub-Saharan Africa or the Americas. I do not.
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Again, this is about HOW history is told and WHO tells it, because certain places and peoples are going to be invisible and siletnt…
There are the players and the rest are the stuff of sideshows.
“Everyone” believes it and it goes down in stone as Standard Knowledge.
Particularly as regards Asia.
So, when Kiwi says:
….But later says
…the reader might be left thinking that the Chinese get credited for sea-faring, but the Indians are oddly earth-bound and land-locked…
Yet, this would hardly be Kiwi’s doing — I am not saying that it is.
How Kiwi has explained it, is the way I learned it, too.
I’ve heard numbers of stories about the treasure ships of the moguls.
What they were? Chinese? Somalian? Arabian? I doubt it.
They were indian ships.
Indian Cartography supports that India’s maritime history began in around 3rd millenium BC, when Indians were trading with the Greco-Romans and Africans around the Red Sea port of Myos Hormos. It was Indian seafarers who initiated contact with the Mesopotamia.
Due respect to the Chinese — but they were peripheral to that aspect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myos_Hormos
What archaelogists are finding in the Indus Valley points to these ancients’ extraordinary knowledge of oceanography, maritime engineering and hydography — in=keeping with what the Greeks alluded to about the dark-skinned ones from the East.
http://www.harappa.com/lothal/2.html
It seems, frankly, that all the talk about “The Lands of the East” has pointed to only China really — with India as an adjunct.
But the “mystical, rich east” most likely referred more to India and rather than China.
Looking at the ancient trade routes around the Indian Ocean, it seems all of them went to and from India across the seas.
After all, Columbus was looking for “the Indies”, not “the Chinies”, so to speak.
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contd.
So, in the end it comes to down to what is taken, and how gain is perceived.
The way of perceving India is that civilization reached there from the West.
I like how biff helpfully reminds us that:
Not like East Asia (the “real” Asia).
Or the “white” Middle East.
As for a place like India, any “civilization” was due to what the Greeks must have left behind, after and the Aryans “invaded” and left their stamp.
Therefore any philosophy, technology, architecture and linguistic traces that are discernible, MUST have come from the West into India…
But not really…
Archaeologists and mathematical literature of the period doesn’t corroborate this, and, in fact, shows the opposite.
Some (much?) of what later became known as Greek Wisdom — maths and philosophy — is directly rooted to ancient Indian mathematics and philosophy. Abraham Seidenberg, a professional mathematician and researcher of research of commutative algebra, algebraic geometry, differential algebra, and the history of mathematics, is not alone in his conclusion that Vedic maths (known as the sulvasutras):
“… Greece and India have a common heritage [in geometric algebra] that cannot have derived from Old-Babylonia, i.e., Old-Babylonia of about 1700 BCE.”
This means there was a westward movement of mathematical ideas from India to Greece. Long before Pythagoras (6th century BCE) and also from India to Old-Babylonia and Egypt before 2000 BCE…
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Advancements-Ancient-Indias-Vedic-Culture/dp/1477607897/ref=sr_1_sc_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1409953272&sr=8-3-spell&keywords=abrham+seidenberg+mathematics)
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“This means there was a westward movement of mathematical ideas from India to Greece. Long before Pythagoras (6th century BCE) and also from India to Old-Babylonia and Egypt before 2000 BCE…”
More about that from here:
http://bharatabharati.wordpress.com/tag/westward-movement/
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I haven’t read all the latest comments, but have just seen this bit.
Biff says:
Seriously? Smh.
The Africans were skilled agriculturists and brought with them their knowledge of building and hydraulics, not least how to irrigate Iberia with a system of canalworks that would “fertilize the plains and blossom the hills”, by channelling the water from the ice-capped sierras into the arid lands belows.
This allowed an abundance of otherwise unknown crops to flourish in Europe, such citrus fruits, apricots and figs, sugar cane, dates, pomegranate, saffron, rice.
In fact, many of Spain’s first olive trees were planted by the Moors.
Spanish (and Portuguese?) cuisine is grounded in “the help” the Moors gave them…
The also brought advanced medicine, a culture of washing and hygiene with them, etc., etc., etc.
http://www.spanishfoodworld.co.uk/the-moor-the-merrier/
http://www.islamicspain.tv/Arts-and-Science/The-Culture-of-Al-Andalus/Medicine.htm
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So, it seems we may have to look somewhere else besides pure IQ to see why certain peoples have had more useful inventions than others.
I have a couple anecdotes, which have recently shaped my thinking on this:
Got to know this older white guy who is a business owner and has invented a lot of stuff. He holds various patents too. He told me he has had literally 1000s of ideas for inventions, most of which never were more than ideas. But, it’s like they come to him all the time. I would probably out-test him for pure IQ, but I rarely (almost never) have those kinds of thoughts. Our brains really are wired differently
Another older white guy, also a business owner, shared some other thoughts. He builds machinery and has offices on several different continents. He says it is incredibly difficult recruiting qualified people. Even in East Asia, where folks have high IQs and seem to be generally good at technical stuff, he says it’s very hard to find people with a “mechanical mind”. Example he gave was a Chinese employee, with a mechanical engineering background (so they have the training), not fixing his own bike when it broke down, but rather going to a repair place. Frankly, I would go to a repair place too, and it didn’t seem strange to me.
But, I guess the kind of person who can do well in his business has natural curiosity and is always taking stuff apart and rebuilding it. The kind of person who builds a car, just because he can. He said pretty much the only people with this kind of mind he had encountered were of Western and Northern European (probably extending down into Northern Italy) ancestry. I certainly don’t hear of many Chinese or Koreans working on their cars the way some white dudes will.
Even If you take the “mechanical mind” argument, it certainly wouldn’t be necessary for items like gunpowder, paper or the compass, which have limited amounts of moving parts. It would only really kick in for more complex machinery.
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@ Abagond
“I think industrialization would have still taken place at some point.”
Perhaps, but we have know way of knowing that. I don’t think that the industrialization happened in England due to some inherent trait of white people, so, yes, the industrialization could have happened somewhere else. But I think it was due to such a complex set of geographical and historical conditions, that it only could have happened somewhere else if that place had the geographical benefits of England and the history of Europe between 1200 and 1800.
“Maybe so, but that only affects the speed of technological change, not its possibility.”
My point is that that is the same thing. Few inventions in their original form are of much use. Most have to be improved to be useful, and that is often not done by the original inventor. Also, the competitve enviroment is the incentive to invest in further improvement. The failed technological advances tell a better story of that than the successful. European governments and private persons poured enormous amounts of resources into the development of technology that was very unlikely to ever bear fruit (and more often than not, didn’t).
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@ Kiwi,
Time and place, not IQ — agreed.
After all, British industrialisation wouldn’t have been possible without the changes brought in by the agricultural revolution.
If I can break this down a little: improved sanitation and water supply WAS essential to steady population growth, but I believe the increased agricultural output in this part of North Western Europe at this time was naturally due to meeting of previous factors, too. Like any development, whether scientific or cultural.
Wasn’t this at least attributable to the introduction of New World foods such as the potato or tomato, which became part of the staple food-culture of Europeans? Where would Europe be without the importationo of the potato, or the Moors, even? The New World had been “discovered” by that time the potatoe arrived, to the cost of the Aboriginal populations of the Americas, and the African peoples freighted over to work these new lands for free.
European agriculture had improved. The Dutch and Belgians already found out about 4-year crop rotation and Englishmen like “Turnip” Townshend implemented those ideas on English soil. It was something that allowed English farmers to increase their food production by as much at least 25% (this method was easily adaptable as English soil is very similar to Dutch soil, particularly in the East of England).
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@ Kiwi
The way I was taught it, was that “great confluence” you describe ^^ was not so much a European one, but essentially an English one.
This was not because the English are “cleverer” than others, but because the English developed their institutions to promote growth at a time when it would be most beneficial to “advancement” to do so.
The basis of this was ambitious self-interest and sheer greed, not IQ or special abilities.
Institutional methods like:
–The Enclosure Movement. This allowed those with access to legal instruments to push off the landless and peasants from grazing their lifestock, mowing meadows for hay.
Open land and forests were closed off.
This “closed off” land could then be “bought”.
A landowner could then experiment and exploit the land to the full, unbothered by other users. The result: increased crop yields and livestock output, with this bonus — an increase in labour productivity AND labour surplus…a labour surplus in turn pushes the population into the cities.
— Government policies that encouraged inventors and innovation, and global trades. The concept of “intellectual property” was born, along with the enshrinement of Patent Law.
— What about the granting of monopolies? This was done by expanding the Navy — how else could international trade be protected?
— Establishing stock markets and central banks. The Dutch had being busy and brilliant setting up systems, but the English (and Scots) ran with it.
This was enabled joint-stock companies to be created, like the East India Company, allowing profits to directly enter the accoutns fo wealthy merchants and aristocrats, and all secured under the legal auspices of a Royal Charter.
(Remember too, that Britain is not a secular state, a factor which has lent to an unspoken moral imprimatur to that country’s ventures and innovations…)
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Inventions, by themselves, don’t necessarily get you anywhere, Kartoffel is right on that.
Or, or for that matter, having a big population.
Striking whilst the iron is hot — certainly helpfs.
But what set Great Britain apart was this: a set of rules and regulations had been created by its jurisprudence and laws (English and Scottish law), as well as various treaties and international agreements that that national entity or firm, had signed up to, made it WELL-PLACED not only to cash in, but enable innovation to flourish.
But Britain had its time when the timing and industry stood in readiness to capitalize on innovation. That time has passed.
I recall listening to Heinz Wolff, one of the inventors behind Bio-Engineering, mentioning that although the British still invent and invent well, their inventions tend not to lead to market leadership. That goes elsewhere:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivDPXiMryUI)
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@Kiwi:
This ‘biff’ persona is a racist loon, ignore him. He probably gets off on riling up the ‘coloureds’. You are just adding to his pleasure!
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somebody above said that a poster was “appropriating Greek and Arab inventions as White inventions”. When did they stop being considered White? I’m all for recognizing ethnic classifications, but my Black friends have convinced me that Indians and Australian aboriginals are “Black peoples” to which I’d agree based on their general skin colors. North Africans also are considered Black, and mixed people colloquially. And in that vein, if you want to claim that Whites invented racism, one of the oldest examples of racist thought was the Babylonian Talmud that specified how the tribe of Ham was made Black as punishment by god. So if Jews and Arabs aren’t White, we have precedent for nonwhites expressing racial bigotry and possibly racism before nearly all “Whites”.
Also, a poster above said that Egypt had invented far more things than the Sumerians did. That’s a seriously controversial claim. As far as I’ve seen, Sumeria is cited with slightly more inventions. Cross pollination is very real making the stance “they both had nearly the same amount of inventions” a second choice for me. But to suggest that the Egyptians were somehow a leader of invention in antiquity, heads and shoulders above the Sumerians is to me unsupported and wreaks of propaganda.
But anyways, It seems that Whites definitely monopolize the worst forms of racism in history, but that’s not to say that other cultures don’t experience classism ethnocentricism and xenophobia. After all it would seem a people that were into colonialism and world domination would go hand in hand with racism. So I would sort of agree that non-Africans embody the fewest examples of racism in history, with Whites and Asians being prone to it far more. There’s plenty of reasons why. But having an abnormal phenotype (look) (as early Whites and Asians’ skin was lightened by being in Northern Climates) could foster an in-group egregore, as well as being descendants from peoples who migrated where xenophobia was a matter of defense.
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This site is racist and anti-white, with most of the sentiment expressed based on pure emotion. Anyone who doesn’t agree with everything along the motif that white people are the most evil people in history is a racist. I was really surprised by the level of animosity. I cannot understand why, with the level of evil white racism, any black person would continue to get into leaky boats and cross from Africa to Europe, risking their lives to live in orderly, clean European cities rather than the garbage dumps that constitute most African cities. How clear does it have to be for anyone who is not retarded or brainwashed to see that there is a vast difference in the temperaments of blacks and whites? Whites build and blacks tear down. Whenever Africa is discussed the claim for the wreckage is “colonialism”. 90% of Africans will tell you to your face they were better off under white colonial administration and that is why they are coming to Europe and America – white rule. When the Chinese proliferate in Africa the Africans will look back fondly to the days with whites. Africans and African-descended peoples lack a basic ability of civic organization or administration. Civic as in civilization. It’s almost as if they are completely incapable, and when they get their hands on an entirely black city like Detroit they run it into the ground with the corruption, enriching themselves at the cost of their own people. Look at Kwame Kilpatrick. This president (elected by whites) that we have is useless, plays golf all day. Black cities like Camden NJ and Newark are violent and dangerous. Black men kill each other like flies and we don’t hear a word, but one white man kills a black and the entire country grinds to a halt and the race hustlers Sharpton, Jackson are all stoking the black rage. White innovates, yellow imitates, brown procreates, and black devastates. If cooler heads prevailed, people would realize it’s best to just separate from each other but then blacks would cry foul, because they know they can’t survive without whites and as usual wherever whites go to get away from them, they follow. So fuck your anti-white diatribes.
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@ Deirdre
You know, right, that you come off as a screeching racist?
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Yes abagond, I know that I come off as a screeching ‘racist’, which isn’t a problem for me. I don’t respond to ad hominem attacks, I know that’s what people do when they realize they cannot refute the truth and need to make up something negative about the person that’s telling the truth. That’s the pot calling the kettle black, dear. Go take a look in the mirror. When someone resorts to calling you ‘racist’ you know you’ve won already. And btw – calling someone ‘racist’ is losing it’s sting. Everyone sees how overused it’s been and how it has been misapplied to anyone and everything that a black person doesn’t agree with. The word ‘racist’ is just a tool to try and keep people from telling the truth. So yes, I tell the truth, which is of course not what you want to hear and therefore I am a ‘racist’. 500 years ago, I might have said something you didn’t like about religion and you would have called me a heretic, which was back then similar to being a ‘racist’ – it was a convenient way to initiate a witch hunt against those you didn’t agree with. It would bring forth a crowd with pitchforks and torches, just the way “Waycist!” is supposed to do in this PC era but it doesn’t work anymore. So check your minority privilege. The privilege to call white people names for noticing inconvenient truths. It isn’t going to last forever.
You are a parrot who has merely repeated what has been told to you without even thinking about it. You really believe that black people are hampered by racism, and Jim Crow is alive and well. Despite the fact that in the last 60 years, the whites of the western world have given enormous sums of money and aid to Africa, opened the doors of Europe and America wide to people from African nations like Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Nigeria, and welcomed them in with housing, food, and education. Many American blacks in this country have been the recipients of Head Start, No Child Left Behind, WIC, Food Stamps, EBT cards (Swipe your EBT!), Section 8 housing and other programs. Does anyone fail to notice that this constitutes one of the greatest wealth transfers in history from one group of people to another? And still, the achievement gap that exists is the fault of someone else.
When will it be enough? Will it ever be enough?
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@ Deirdre Mullen
Exactly what did you plan to accomplish when you posted this and your other comment on Abagond’s blog?
You know better. And you know that at the end of the day, your textbook examples of unhinged color-aroused psychosis wasn’t going to change a single thing. And it won’t change a single thing.
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Kiwi: Whites have been fighting among each other in neighboring European countries since the beginning of time, and so have blacks in neighboring African countries. That is a totally different argument and certainly would require that we both have an extensive knowledge of European history and of African history, and would not have any relation to this particular argument which is about white and black. So there is no point in addressing that achievement gap. There are, incidentally, massive numbers of poor American whites here in Appalachia who don’t receive anywhere near the amount of financial resources allocated to young blacks in poverty – and there is a lot of argument in the black community as to whether or not they should get a red cent since they are the wrong color, white. “If whites are so innovative, why did they ravage Europe” is a ridiculously silly question and without logic at all. How does being innovative relate at all to disagreement? Are you saying that a group of people who possess the tendency of individualism that led to a culture of original thought and inventiveness cannot have tempers that are easily inflamed by their neighbors of 2,000 years who they’ve been fighting with? In Africa, the tribes of Hutu and Tutsi have lived side by side as long and they have had an ongoing fued for as long as anyone can remember – each claiming the other to be the aggressor. Same with the Serbs & Croats, Kosovars, Albanians. It certainly doesn’t mean that because they fought each other an innovator – an inventor, perhaps one of the most important European inventors who ever lived and a Croat named Nicolai Tesla could not manage to spring up in the midst of all this strife? To make such a connection is senseless, as are so many of the comments. Comment — “African’s have predominently experienced a lack of innovative thinkers in comparison with America” answer “You are a racist”. OK, well if that works for you – but it’s a good indicator of why you don’t ever get anywhere. What does one have to do with the other since the first comment is true? We are speaking of sub-Saharan Africa which is primarily negro, while the Maghreb (Libya, Chad, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco) are more Arabic. In fact, this is the usual reference to “Africa” and people generally do make that distinction.
The people on this site are sickening – they don’t like white on black racism at all but have no problem hating and despising whites to the extent they wish for their total destruction. I am proud of my ethnic background and culture, and I know that is seen as being like a Nazi because I’m white. If I was black or Hispanic I’d be encouraged! Black Power! La Raza!
If whites are so kind and giving, why didn’t they develop the countries they colonized? Have you ever been to Africa? Or Haiti? You can drive on a pretty nice road and then cross the border into a country that has never been colonized, such as Sierra Leone (not somewhere you want to be right now though with Ebola) and your vehicle is driving on rocky muddy unpaved ground. The people say they “have never had the benefits of colonization” and in most of these colonized areas the buildings were of such quality they are still standing where they have not been decimated by civil war or strife. In Haiti after the earthquake I had two friends that went there to help and one was almost killed by a guy, the other said people were out on the streets with machetes taking advantage of the unrest rather than helping total strangers to rebuild their country. Total strangers – whites – who got up and left their homes for two weeks to go and give their time for free to help people in their national tragedy. Have you ever seen how many white people volunteer for these organizations? The black American volunteers are conspicuous in their near total absence. And regular white people are starting to notice that it’s pointless to try and help people who totally despise you.
There isn’t any point arguing about this stuff. You and your co-bloggers and co-commenters are quite set in your ways here, and I and all other whites are just evil haters and racists.
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@ Deirdre
You know, right, that that is just how you sound?
If you think I think Jim Crow is alive and well, that nothing has changed in the last 60 years, or that white people are the most evil people in history or that they should be destroyed, then you do not know much about my opinions. You are putting words in my mouth and then calling me a parrot.
Almost everything you have said I have heard almost word for word from Whites over and over again. Like a broken record. But instead of merely ad homming them as racists, like you assume I have, I have thought about their scripted lines and written about them, showing how they are racist:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/broken-record-dept/
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If Abagond’s blog did nothing but reaffirm your own personal narrative on racial matters, chances are you wouldn’t have posted any of this.
Let’s face it: You are the prime poster child for the need for a national focus on mental health care. Seek help.
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@Deirdre: You claim this site is about “bashing ‘whites'”. But it seems every comment which LOOKS like a “bashing of ‘whites'” is really a comment against some White person/people’s RACISM. There aren’t any comments around here going on about how, say, White people look like monkeys or something like that — at least I haven’t seen any, and I don’t think Abagond would allow it here. Compare THAT to some of the self-proclaimed “pro-White” boards out there, like Stormfront or Vanguard or something like that. Look at the volume of real, live racial HATRED on a site like that. You complain here about some kind of supposed “hatred of Whites” on this site, yet what do you have to say about the REAL HATRED expressed on THOSE sites?
And from your post you seem to be trying to say that the African race is inferior and the White/European race is superior. That’s racism right there. Also, the point, I believe, of the “ravaged Europe” argument is to counter the notion that the violence in, say, Africa, proves the race is inferior by showing that the supposedly-superior “White” race is just as much capable of great violence.
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@Deirdre:
Have you challenged the outright racism on the Stormfront and Vanguard websites I mentioned?
And how do you know everyone on this site who supports or stands by the views of its author and the prevailing view of the posters here is necessarily something other than White? You’re just ASSUMING that is the case.
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@ Deirdre Mullen
How often are you on white blogs saying that they are anti-black and racist? Probably, not at all.
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Deirdre Mullen
I won’t call you any names, but I will take this moment to debunk much of what you claim is the truth.
For starter your comment is riddled with assumptions. If you must assume that much I would say you already lost the argument. Reason being is because you are holding to that being true to carry the weight of what you are saying.
Secondly this idea that African cities are garbage dumps is part the lies people like to believe. While not ever area of Africa is great, more seems to be going better than what you or people like you might think. Research and knowledge is key in these things which is why this link should be enlightening. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Africa) Furthermore Africa is not just full of black people as some like to believe so if they wanted to really go to white run cities they do not need a boat to do such, so that type of logic is highly faulty.
As to your claim of what 90% of Africans believe, I am sure you know good and well how false that is. In the event that you meet 90% of them then I would rather hear from the horses mouth than someone verse in making things up. As to why they come to America many do it for educational purposes, jobs, etc. Your idea of white rule falls in the opinion category.
“When the Chinese proliferate in Africa the Africans will look back fondly to the days with whites. Africans and African-descended peoples lack a basic ability of civic organization or administration.”—Then let us discuss Jamaica. Would it not be a perfect example of black ruled places? Not only that I do believe some are of Chinese ancestry. Yet whites vacation there like no tomorrow.
“Black men kill each other like flies and we don’t hear a word, but one white man kills a black and the entire country grinds to a halt and the race hustlers Sharpton, Jackson are all stoking the black rage.”—The correct comparison to this is white men killing white men not white man killing blacks. Something we equally fail to hear something about. As to white men killing blacks, the only reason you hear so much about it is usually because the white man is not charged. In those other cases the perps are actually charged and no need to go in an uproar about. I can think of several cases of white man kills blacks and it got little or no headlines, but the perp was charged in those cases and will be serving time.
“White innovates, yellow imitates, brown procreates, and black devastates.”—Actually that is false. Everyone else innovates and whites imitates. Then in order to make things a white invention they will claim a group as white if all else fails. At any rate most innovations are the result of immigrants who work in labs in groups to discover something in which the leader/owner of said company goes forth to claim it as his own new wonder.
AS to blacks surviving without whites, that is false. There have been many times throughout history that blacks have actually survived without whites. The problem is that anytime they do then whites seek to destroy. A bit of truth that should be an eye opener to blacks to start doing what their predecessors have done.
FYI you whole first post is full of ad hominem attacks. This further validates that you lost the argument according to your very logic. 🙂
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Ok how about this: All of you are right and I’m wrong. I’m in need of mental help and you are all completely ok in your hatred of a people that have done much more for the world than any other group.
This place is definitely not for evil racists like myself. Oh, no, I had better go off to Stormfront and that other one you said right away. Let me go right now so I can be with other evil white people and don’t miss one minute of rubbing our hands together evilly hating black people and thinking of ways that we can keep them from achieving their dreams.
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Deirdre Mullen
Who said anything about hating you? Who said anything about hating people that have done much more for the world than any other group? Because if you want to be honest whites did more to other groups than any other not more for, so it is more like cleaning up a mess. When you can actually quote that being said and prove that everyone here believes that then we can go from their, but until then……
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Kiwi said:
• Less than a century later, the Industrial Revolution was in full swing. What’s most amazing is that for well over a thousand years (a tradition of violence), these people were slaughtering others by the millions in the name of religion. That seems to have carried over when they sailed around the world, slaughtering tens of millions more over race.
Parenthetical remark, mine.
Abagond said on the Spanish Racial Identity in 1492 thread, that:
• By the 1700s Western thinkers of the Enlightenment divided the world into a handful of races. They used race, not religion, to excuse genocide and slavery.
Montesquieu in 1748 tells us why, here (Spirit of the Laws) speaking about black slaves as a white Christian:
It is impossible for us to suppose these creatures to be men, because, allowing them to be men, a suspicion would follow that we ourselves are not Christians.
Parenthetical citation added by me.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/27/spanish-racial-identity-in-1492/#comments
——————————————————————
White “invention”: Property Rights
A claim by Ayn Rand:
Indians were savages who had no property rights. Their destruction is justified by the state they were in when encountered by whites and their [the Indians’] “intransigence” in creating property rights.
(I’ll provide a source later when I find it)
——————————————————————-
Thinking back to Kiwi’s remark, a response arises: there is a justification see-saw in the Euro narrative of AfricanSlavery/Indian Holocaust.
See: they lacked property rights, we had to civilize them or civilize the land.
Saw: they were not human anyway.
——————————————————————-
If the above seems off beat somehow, it’s because it’s a sort of thinking out loud comment. Just things that came to mind…
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I said: it’s a sort of thinking out loud comment. Just things that came to mind…
this came to mind too:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/11/24/the-speech-that-wamsutta-james-was-not-allowed-to-give-at-plymouth-rock/
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Ayn Rand citation, as promised. For the interested, listen to the Q&A link for the disgusting but also logically flawed justification for destroying the Indians.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/ayn-rand-works/pwni.html
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A query to any and all:
When and in what region (country, if apropos) of Africa does the Wheel first show up?
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Specifically: the Wheel being used for transportation purposes.
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and for agricultural purposes too.
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White Man is right. Anyone who would read that crap WOULD be convinced of that nonsense. There are plenty of scientific studies and books on the subject of their supposed superiority. In fact these kinds of things are the glue that bind the ignorance of some people who identify themselves as white to the white supremacist mantle.
However, because the true elites, the white supremacists who control the systems, infrastructure and institutions, and who are miniscule in number, designed the very cast system that has structured ordinary white people into different classes in order to separate even themselves from each other, since color couldn’t distinguish them. Thus, the majority of whites do not even realize that they are being duped and deluded into believing the inane concept of white superiority and the rhetoric that props it up.
They are ignorant to the real purpose of the propaganda: control and maintenance of the masses of them to whom the elite among them refer to as their “blue collar,” “trailer trash,” “white trash,” “all American,” “the middle class,” “the working poor,” etc. Consequently, the white masses who have embraced supremacist notions have been and still remain lulled into a state of denial of real history and still try to hide the true facts from public discourse.
It is ironic that many white people see themselves as “individual” in terms of the many atrocities committed by them, not wanting to stain or tarnish and yet, when discussing supremacy, and in particular those positive contributions such as inventions they have made, they will speak for their entire community.
It is also ironic that these very people who identify themselves as white and who embrace white supremacy, do not actually control the systems, including monetary, or the infrastructure and institutions, and DO NOT have a stake in the so-called American Dream, but are deluded into believing that they DO, as long as they believe that they are superior. They believe in White Supremacy, even when it doesn’t actually apply in practicable terms to them. “When all else fails, hey, but I’m white.”
If any group of people need to wake up, it’s the masses of so-called white supremacist racists because they are being taken for the same ride as people of color.
http://www.calease-writer.com
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The facts stand. White people, and that includes Jews, are the great inventors and engineers. The few blacks and others who have come along and done great things with invention, science, and engineering, are exceptions that prove the rule. White Jews and Gentiles are behind all the great scientific advances. Ancient Greeks and Romans were white people. Israeli Jews are white people. European Ashkenazi Jews are white people. The great achievements the Asians had came from white people. Example: Japanese are good at making steel, yes. Where did they get the great steel knowledge of alloys? White Europeans and Jews. I believe God loves and created all people but God is a Zionist Jew and the Ashkenazi Jews are the smartest people on the planet. Benno Strauss was a white Ashkenazi Jew. He is the inventor of nickel chromium stainless steel, . Harry Brearley the white Englishman made stainless steel. Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell the white men gave the world electricity. Genesis 9:25-27 explains all of this. The Shemites and Japhethites (White people and Jews and yes, Asians) are the great designers, engineers, organizers, and leaders. Black and Arab people and other brown people are the laborers and servants. I am not advocating slavery or mistreatment or abuse of them. The fact remains: The Brown and Black people/Hamites, are best off when they are treated as loved and cared for and guided servants who are protected and who serve their White and Asian leaders. This is reality and even alot of blacks admit this. White people discovered America. No, I’m not talking Columbus and the Vikings. There is evidence that White People arrived in America BEFORE the Asiatic native Americans.
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The groups who hate black folks are ignorant scumbags. I hate the Neo Nazis, KKK, white supremists, just as much as the Anti white black supremists. I love decent black folks. God bless you my brothers and sisters. I believe whites and blacks and asians and brown and black people should all be treated with equal respect and love. Down with Islam and down with Nazis both black and white nazis and asian and mexican nazis.
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@WhiteAshkenaziJew
Loons come in all shapes and sizes. I would like you to tell me where you get the idea that most blacks believe the nonsense you just stated and when you are done you can share where you got the nonsense you just stated.
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Sock puppet alert!
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Another problem with this argument is again the asymmetry of racism. White people crowd out the scientific fields in the west and have that legendary bias favoring other whites so of course they’re gonna be the ones working these industries; industries built usually from white money. Commence cycle of stereotyping whites as smart, successful and good. Commence racial positing. As you can see thinking like this leads you down a path of flawed, racist thinking with racist conclusions. Then of course they’re glory hogs and they take FULL credit, sometimes even from other white people like the Facebook and NuPedia controversies. Still, the occasional Neil deGrasse Tyson slips in.
@WhiteAshkenaziJew – I can’t speak for everyone, but thank you even though I don’t think your words are truly sincere deep down because we’re always hearing pretty kumbaya stuff like that and it’s almost never true.
Also putting down all of Islam is not the answer. There are some Muslims who do love Jews.
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To bad the Egyptians didn’t invent civilization itself. There’s another argument called, BLACK “ORGINAL” ARGUMENT. There’s evidence that suggests the egyptian pharaohs didn’t actually build the pyramids. Blacks need to stop pulling the egypt card, boy they sure love having that. When in fact EGYPT IS ONLY RELEVANT TO THEM WHEN THEY HAVE TO PULL THAT CARD. Both the white and black argument are stupid and need to stop.
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@Rufus,
In what way does this post have ANYTHING to do with blacks pulling the Egypt card? It looks to me that the post is simply asking why whites pull the white inventor argument. It also says that the current civilization is the culmination of many thousands of years of development by many different peoples. European descendent Anglos only seized this edge from the 19th century, and it doesn’t look poised to last.
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Specious as usual.
The argument does not rely on Whites being on top the whole time, but that whites are responsible for the greatest surge in human development in history.
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Specious as usual.
Fecal as usual.
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Black inventors with patent numbers and date of inventions: http://inventors.about.com/od/blackinventors/a/Black_History.htm
Hispanic inventors: http://inventors.about.com/od/famousinventors/tp/mexican.htm
http://www.thehispanicamerican.com/famous-hispanic-american/hispanic-american-inventor-02/
http://www.uspto.gov/page/hispanic-heritage-and-inventions
Asian inventors: http://asianhistory.about.com/od/asianinventions/tp/50-Amazing-Asian-Inventions.htm
Looks like Asians have been inventing prior to recently.
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[…] White Inventor Argument […]
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Im responding late but i must say,white,black,yellow,red,blue,green etc. All humans have made a helpfull contribution to our world today,we should consider outselves lucky we still are here,we are a young race, as we progress throught time we should hold close to each other rather than dispute who did what or what makes who more “dominant” we are young and already we are destroying ourselves.
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Abagond.
I don’t normally debate trolls but when I do what should I reply when white internet trolls say “why can’t black people get their sh*t together? the irish/chinese/indians etc, have acheived more than you.”
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@There’sBlackInTheUnionJack
I know this is to Abagond, but I would like to respond.
The best thing to do is stick to the facts and present the many things blacks have invented that whites use all the darn time. Even most blacks have no real idea how much of a contribution, besides music, that blacks have brought to the table.
Secondly Irish can pass as white, so in most cases white Americans are riding off of their inventions or contributions. Remind them of the many poor Asians that they seem to overlook as they paint them as the model minority. You have to remember that whites usually use those groups as a fluffer to say shame to blacks, yet ignore those groups struggle all the same minus the crime rates.
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http://www.rense.com/general81/dnt.htm
No Nigerian invented a supercomputer… it was a hoax
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@Jay
I am not aware of who Philip Emeagwali is, but your link calls him a liar with showing proof he lied.
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How do you know that the Egyptians weren’t white? U.S. Cities were all by whites but are now occupied by non-whites. If you were from another planter and visiting earth you could percieve that non-whites built the cities, but you would be dead wrong!
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@Achilles
DNA shows the Egyptians were not white. U.S. cities were built by whites and non-whites. Dictating to other people to build something does not mean whites built it. Where is another planter? If you visited earth you would not think anyone built anything with common sense.
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You are wrong, because scientific progess functions exponentially. That means that in the past 200 years we have made virtually all of the scientific and technological progress in the history of mankind. And virtually alll scientific progress comes from western, white nations. And most researchers generating knowledge and new technological braekthroughs were and are white, caucasian.
Also, talking about technological progress in antiquity is laughable. Scientific progress was virtually non existant back then. In recent history mankind has made more progress than in the previous thousands of years.
In the 19th century we made more progress scientifically than in the previous 900 years. And in the first decade of the twentieth century we made more progress than in the previous 100 years.
Source: http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-law-of-accelerating-returns
Living in a globalized world and readily available information technologies have changed everything.
Besides, there is absolutely no reason for other nations, other races not to perform scientific research or develop new technologies at the same rate. Hell, whites are nowadays below 10% of the worlds population, yet account for most of the scientific output globally. And everyone has access to the technologies and knowledge necessary for research / inventiveness.
Some graphs:
http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_1124_29ee4c9e6c84cf278ee4ada3f24ad506
http://secretariageneral.ugr.es/pages/img2013/mapascimago/!
You can argue as to the reasons why, since im not claiming a strictly biological advantage, but its undeniable western civilization, rooted in europe and its former colonies, is the progenitor of the modern world.
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@ IC
The article does not argue that Western civilization is not rooted in Europe. The article argues that knowledge application is CUMULATIVE and that before you can think about more complex programs you have to solve for more fundamental problems. Therefore, ancient technological landmarks made possible the critical mass needed to give rise to the synthesis of modern technology. You can’t build the rocket before building the wheel. You can’t mass produce books before you mass produce paper. Everything is built upon something else, more fundamental and essential than itself.
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I guess those immigrants behind the scenes must be white.
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Hernith, is it cultural appropriation for whites to be interested in things like science and technology when they were first invented in non white cultures? not wll technology but I get what I mean
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Huh?
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tdog / Nathan t is banned for using sock puppets.
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I have a question for Herneith. What does “a racialized person” mean? My spell-check keeps picking it up as a misspelling of something or other.
I am amazed at how some here keep employaeizing the stretchification of wordisms to sound educationalistic.
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racialize
It doesn’t take much to amaze you does it?
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No it doesn’t take much at all. I’m simple like that. Or rather, I’m just simple.
But, after looking at your link, neither the verb nor the noun can apply to a person, except if applied in the loosest of ways. A European, I’m guessing, can be “a racialized person” then, by your interpretation?
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While I agree that the so called “white inventor argument” does harm to current race relations, I disagree that it isn’t a valid point. It’s just often misused. The argument is often a troll’s response to another troll’s response. It’s value, however, is that is DOES provide a perspective on the contemporary narrative that black culture is the cornerstone of white american accomplishments. That has as many racist overtones as the white inventor argument itself. So, a troll baits another troll and the argument lives on if for no other reason to inflame the inflamed. No society in the world is completely exempt from the influence of another. We all share resources, be those resources of knowledge, music, art- whatever. History proves that nearly every culture has offered amazing contributions to the human race. What becomes tragic is the need to associate a race with ANY of it! These are humanity’s gifts, and I am so sick of a race laying claim to it, yet we still do it. Whites are not the only ones to do so. We have some (mostly young) black americans insisting that “their” music and cultural styles should not be performed, appreciated, or advocated in any way by white kids. White kids are often ridiculed for adopting black contributions. White guys shouldn’t sing the blues. White performers have no soul. White people can’t dance, and shouldn’t be dressing like black kids, and so on. It’s racist as hell. It alienates white kids, and makes them resent the color of their own skin. Is that how we want to heal racism? Often, some irritated white person lugs out the white inventor argument as a counter-bash. I think the point it often TRIES to make (but gets COMPLETELY lost in it’s racial connotation) is one of perspective. …that, for example, “white people invented cars- should black people not be allowed to drive them?” Um, no. Of course not. Why then, do we advocate black culture laying such vicious claims to anything they innovate? The same goes for any culture, really. Once we understand WHY some people feel the need to associate race with this sort of thing, we’ll be getting somewhere. No one is trying to take the accomplishments of black culture away from society. In fact, we openly celebrate it these days. We celebrate prominent black figures in history. My children all take african american studies in school. It’s all a very good thing. My personal opinion is that we are long overdue for moving forward on this issue because, I feel, our best days are yet to come for us ALL. We are smack in the middle of a science and technology Renaissance. Wake up. In post slavery america, our innovation has never been more accelerated. Why? Personally, I think it is because we are pooling resources, and All colors are working together to make valuable contributions. The culmination of america’s (and the entire world’s) many cultures is proving to be FAR GREATER than the accomplishments of any single culture. In short, when we work together, we are greater than the sum of our parts. Look at the advancements we have made in technology alone in the last 20 years. Look at biotechnology. Look at particle physics. Look at just about everything. It’s breathtaking, really. Now, look in the labs and classrooms. Is it overwhelming white? or black? or hispanic? or asian? Nope. In most cases, it’s a beautiful mix of them all. It’s time to stop clinging to these race accomplishments just as it is time to stop discrediting and fanning the flames of past conspiracies (be they real or imaginary). All of it is so ugly. I am so optimistic about the future for all humans, though. I’m betting one day this racial divide between us will only exist in textbooks. Let’s stop attaching race to innovation, really. Screw it. It’s time to move on. The past is gone- lessons learned, and all that. Our future is only as good as we script it.
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@Mike
It’s the big square key on your keyboard.
Just in case you were wondering.
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“We have some (mostly young) black americans insisting that “their” music and cultural styles should not be performed, appreciated, or advocated in any way by white kids. White kids are often ridiculed for adopting black contributions. White guys shouldn’t sing the blues. White performers have no soul. White people can’t dance, and shouldn’t be dressing like black kids, and so on.”
I don’t think you understand the problem some Black people have with cultural appropriation, Mike.
It becomes problematic when white people TAKE possession of Black culture while hating Black people.
Unless of course you don’t see anything wrong with that?
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Mike
When a person counters an argument, such as the white inventor argument it is foolish to toss it off as trolling. Secondly it is not usually black people I see knocking white people off who like “black” music or “black” culture. So maybe you should ask those whites who do that those pivotal questions.
“Often, some irritated white person lugs out the white inventor argument as a counter-bash.”—Funny I just left a “Save the white children” Facebook page where whites bring up that argument all the time to remind us darkness how much we need to be thankful for.
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Hi Fan,
Perhaps you are correct; I don’t (fully) understand it…..but I see a genuine chance for us both to gain something, here. Maybe we can reach some common ground.
First off- hating on anyone because of race is a degenerate’s pastime. Enough said. I think we can all agree on that.
Now…I truly want to understand this: How exactly does one ‘take possession’ of black culture? By joining it? By replicating it? By adopting it? That’s a serious set of questions by the way- not trying to troll. I DO understand when someone lays claim to inventing something they did NOT, but I only see rare cases of that (mostly many decades ago), and only a very small group of narrow minded folks buy into it. I think the bigger picture is that you are referring to a unique innovation that is heavily adopted by another group that had no input whatsoever, right? Stuff that happens today? Under those confines, why then would it not be hypocritical for black culture to wear sweatshirts? Or speak German? Or talk on a phone? Or drive a car? Or eat sushi? I mean, black culture had very little input into the development of those things, and yet they are shared by all cultures around the globe. Should other cultures be offended and make presumptions that black people are taking possession of “their” culture? I think not.
Another thing…is the ultimate goal of black america to draw lines, alienate, and create an entire ethnocentric subculture of language, art, music, politics, and economics within the larger framework of a multicultural nation? Is the goal to keep all other cultures out of the black community? It seems that way to me sometimes. It seems the very idea of integration is a terrible concept to some black folks and would spell the total decimation of black american culture. I don’t understand that, and I know many white people don’t either. I see real disgust from some black americans when they are in the presence of white people. I’m in baltimore, by the way. There is a lot of racial tension, here. Some black americans here immediately loathe the sight of a white person enjoying anything “black”….even though that white person never owned a slave, never uttered a single racist word, has a genuine love for black america, and may himself even be part black african. But it’s the skin we see, so who would know? It’s too late for black culture to “disappear”- black culture has already been firmly typed into the american history books, and history is being more accurately unearthed and recorded each day. Rightly so, I think. Bottom line is- Black culture is a primary ingredient in the american recipe, and it just wouldn’t be america without it. Literally. So, why is the integration of black society (by black americans) so resistant? It feels like hate.
Lastly…it goes back to my original statement that being offended by someone “taking” a cultural element from another only exists when someone lays possession on it in the first place! I’m quite sure no Asian inventor was thinking his or her idea would be a unique cultural element that only Asians should enjoy, and that NO ONE else should try to take possession of it. In fact, just about every culture that innovates quickly markets that innovation to others. Black culture never capitalized on the idea they had invented entire genres of music in those earlier days. Greedy, racist white folks did. But that’s not the case anymore. Those people are dead. It’s 2015. We have prominent black business leaders in the music industry, and they are reaping the rewards of black american music. Do you think they give a crap about white people buying downloads? Are they trying to say only black america should enjoy the things black americans do?
Again, I’m not trying to bait anyone into an argument, I’m merely speaking what’s on my mind. Enlighten me.
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sharinalr,
I, myself countered the white inventor argument. The point I was making was that it’s good troll bait….sometimes…not always. Some people actually believe their race is superior. I know they are out there.
I happen to be a white guy (you knew that), and I have personally experienced a lot of friction for having a love affair with early delta blues music. I have dedicated the past 30+ years of my life to learning about it, performing it, and teaching it to others. I also enjoy african folk music, and had the pleasure of knowing a midwife who was working in mali. She personally knew vieux farka toure and staged a meeting between us. She told him I was a huge fan, and he was very surprised to meet me and learn I was a white american. At first he was a bit standoffish, but that lasted two minutes, and he quickly became a gracious host and we TRULY had a lot of fun playing guitar that day. I still see him on occasion when he plays near here. He is delighted by the fact I appreciate african music, and I can only wish many black americans were as welcoming. I live in a city where a white kid will be jumped for wearing their hat sideways in certain neighborhoods (baltimore). My white daughter is a dj for fun, and she has been confronted by several black people about how she should give up because that’s “our shit”. Again, maybe it’s different where you are, but I have a lot of examples of the racial tension that exists where I live. I still remain optimistic that it will end someday, though…and I realize this hate stems from pain. Once I realized that, I was better equipped to deal with it.
Most anthropologists agree there isn’t enough genetic distinction among humans to qualify as a genetic “race”. Why we get so caught up on what is “mine” and “yours” is beyond me. The big picture? We all get to share the light of our sun together in a state of miraculous consciousness. Isn’t that bigger than race?
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“Why we get so caught up on what is “mine” and “yours” is beyond me.”
@ Mike,
Why am I getting the distinct impression that you’re attempting to lay the problems of racism and many of its issues at the feet of Black people?
Who created this ‘mine’ versus ‘not yours’ reality in the first place?
Who benefits from the not level playing field that gives whites advantages not given to “others.” Who kept whom out of whatever (everything) that was for whites only?
Surely, you ARE aware that Black people were not the creators of a race based system that bestows unearned privileges upon people who look like you. Right?
So why then do you wonder and scratch your head as if you can’t understand why some of us are justifiably angry?
You’re amusing, in a sad and pathetic kind of way.
How often have you taken the concerns you’ve outlined here, to your fellow “WHITE” people?
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“Again, I’m not trying to bait anyone into an argument, I’m merely speaking what’s on my mind. Enlighten me.”
.
@ Mike
I’ve already given you some clues.
I have not the patience, nor the time, or the energy to educate you.
There’s a wealth of info on this site for everyone, even you.
If you care to study it.
There are plenty of commenters here who will go out of their way to answer your questions. You have a lot of learning regarding Black people to accomplish. Good luck.
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From dugout canoes to battleships, there is a, huge difference.
Africans may get credit for ‘inventing’ small boats (Okay, I KNOW older boats were unearthed in the Netherlands and France but most assume that the simplist boats probably originated somewhere in Africa.) but they are written of as simple seminal efforts.
Our current battleships are a culmination of ideas and inventions from throughout history and many cultures that prove that white people can do everything better?
And now we have rappers who must be the greatest musical artists in the history of mankind.
Why? Because they use the advancements of others, sampling at will, to create a product that is derivative of all prior musical learning while taking credit for creating an entirely new product.
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@Mike
“I, myself countered the white inventor argument.”—You believe you did this how? By engaging in another fallacy of he did it too? No, dear you did not counter it.
“The point I was making was that it’s good troll bait….sometimes…not always.”—Funny that is not what I got from statements such as “The argument is often a troll’s response to another troll’s response.” This indicates you are foolishly writing it off as a response to another persons trolling, when in most cases a good point is being made by it. ie a white person claiming that whites invented 95% of everything. A counter to that does not turn into trolling just because.
“I happen to be a white guy (you knew that), and I have personally experienced a lot of friction for having a love affair with early delta blues music. “—-I knew you were white how? When you assume….can be the difference between you making a point and you losing that point. Now please show me how your early friction applies to a general population. Mainly because blacks are all too happy to have whites enjoy their music and cultures. Eminem is a prime examples of this as well as other white rappers who grew up around blacks and learned from them. A simple search will lead you to a large number of whites who engage in “black” cultures with a large amount of black friends etc. So you experience is a bit contradictory not only to my experience, but experience of many other people I know.
It is this large willing of acceptance that has lead to blacks now being vocal about the cultural appropriation of their music, which is slowly but surely becoming less theirs. Blacks letting whites in and allowing whites to get big off of what they mimic, only to never give credit to where they got it from.
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@Fan …
Why is it every time the level of contributions that blacks make is exposed it becomes an “everybody contributed argument”? Yet when they think that they invented 95% of stuff they want to make sure you know it.
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Fan..
You have much to learn, too. If your goal is to repair race relations, your approach is far from proactive. If your goal is to fortify your ethnocentric values and distance yourself from other cultures, you have succeeded.
What specifically is oppressing you at the moment? What is cause for your current pain? Your anger? The past??
Surely you lack understanding of our flawed human nature. You attach all of the negative aspects of it to white culture. Surely you lack the common knowledge that human beings, when in a position of power, ALWAYS show a predisposition to subhumanize the marginal groups. It is something ALL humans do and is not specific to any race. Horrible? yes! But black africa has just as many examples of genocide against marginal groups as any other group in history. In fact, genocide continues to this day in africa. While most of those examples are not race related (because only one race exists in most places), they find other ways to marginalize people and example after example exists where those groups in power systematically murder the men, women, and children of the marginalized groups. The more power and resources those larger groups wield, the greater the genocide. But sometimes it is not genocidal murder; it’s enslavement or oppression. This is true for every single culture in recorded history and no race is exempt. Does this excuse slavery in America? No. It doesn’t. But to say that white people currently living today should continue an apologetic legacy (despite the fact many of their ancestors weren’t even living here yet, or involved in any way) is moronic and counterproductive. It is intellectually lazy and does nothing to further our understanding of human nature- let alone develop a strategy to prevent it from happening again.
You have a lot to learn about white culture, as well as human beings in general. Not once have I ever allowed my children to think of themselves any differently than anyone else. Not once have I thought anyone deserves a treatment any less kind than that of my own family. I live by this. What do you live by? You call me sad and pathetic….I think it is quite clear what you live by.
I will continue to scratch my head and wonder why you are so angry in 2015. I can only assume you have surrounded yourself with people who encourage you to feel this way. Your anger has nothing to do with me. THAT is sad and pathetic.
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Fan..I guess I naively think no one with half a brain would make a claim that their race is superior to another. Anyone that makes that “case” is either ignorant or baiting someone.
WRT white people taking black people’s stuff- I got nothing. I guess it’s entirely believable and even undeniable that some white people do things the entire race should not take the fall for. The same can be said of any group. On the flipside of that, I don’t take credit for the positive things white people advanced, either. They share a skin type with me. Does that make those innovators, criminals, oppressors, and geniuses part of “me” or even “my culture”? Not really. I still stick to my earliest position which is that I think we start getting into problems when we lay claim to our offerings. It all seems so selfish, and childish to jump up and down and say “hey, I did this first! granted, I did nothing to promote it, market it, or associate it with myself in any way until AFTER the fact someone else was clever enough to profit from it, but it’s mine and you can’t have it”. I suppose if that was my mentality, I would be suspicious of other cultures, too.
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@ MiKe
“granted, I did nothing to promote it, market it, or associate it with myself in any way until AFTER the fact someone else was clever enough to profit from it”
Real life example, if you please.
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Fan..
You said I never countered the inventor argument. Actually, I did several times. My position is that I don’t associate myself as being part of a race that advanced anything positive anymore than the things they do that are negative. In fact, I try to think and live in terms that defy race. Very few of us are “pure white” or pure black or anything like that. For example, I am a mix of dutch, armenian, welsh, shawnee, and even black african (my 2nd great grandfather). To look at me, you’d think I was a white guy because I don’t resemble much of the other traits. Indeed, I am by all accounts a white guy…but I’m also other things. My uncle looks black- he favored african traits. Am I seen any differently? Is my uncle? Should I only associate the favorable aspects of a race with certain percentages of my DNA? Should I make proclamations that I want to be identified as another race? You see how idiotic this is? A lot of black americans are part white. At what point do we realize “race” means so many different things to different people. Are we good with percentages? When does it stop? When do we start seeing ourselves as human first, race second (if at all)?
So, the inventor argument is countered because I’m sure , like life, you will find this amazing list of amazing white advancements isn’t so polarized. It involves other races, or requires other inventions to make certain inventions possible. It is the result of a reign of white dominance, but could just as easily be associated with another race given the same conditions. I believe that. AT the same time, I believe (given the same conditions) black people could enslave, oppress, commit genocide, and be every bit as responsible for the same inventive brilliance. Evidence of this exists everywhere you look. These are human traits. We all share them.
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Mike
Please stop with the “they did it too” arguments, because in most cases you are comparing apples to oranges.
Whites love to claim how they invented almost everything. This comment section alone shows that. I have been on other blogs that showed this as well. In most cases the black or other poc is educating that poor white sole on the real inventor and his race. 9 times out of 10 it is a bitter white man trying to prove superiority, not a black man trying to prove superiority.
Another example is your slavery argument. Slavery in Africa and what happened in America were not the same.
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Solitaire,
Tesla and marconi. tesla invented radio transmission many years earlier and even helped marconi in his early experiments with it. tesla considered it a rather useless thing and moved on to other things he thought were more important. marconi continued to refine radio transmission, and began to profit from it after he patented it. tesla still didn’t think much of it, and even congratulated marconi on beating him to the patent. marconi further refined it and patented many other aspects of radio transmission thereafter. he dedicated a lifetime perfecting it. tesla didn’t care. not until marconi won the nobel prize was tesla suddenly infuriated. His rage prevented him from seeing that marconi had done so much to advance the technology that he indeed deserved the prize for all his work. But because notoriety was tesla’s ultimate goal, he felt slighted. If tesla had worked as hard as marconi, he might have received the prize. Marconi heaped praise on tesla, but it wasn’t enough. Moral: snooze – lose.
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@ MiKe
So your initial statement was not meant to imply anything about race? Such as “early black rappers didn’t promote and market their music”?
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Because considering that your next sentence was “I suppose if that was my mentality, I would be suspicious of other cultures, too,” Tesla wasn’t exactly what jumped into my mind.
Or was Tesla suspicious of Marconi’s culture?? Hmmm.
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sharinalr-
“Please stop with the “they did it too” arguments, because in most cases you are comparing apples to oranges.”
So my attempt at being fair and balanced isn’t working for you? Sorry. I’ll keep doing it.
“Whites love to claim how they invented almost everything.”
Hmm. Aside from the huge generalization you just made about white people…
have you read anything I wrote!?
“In most cases the black or other poc is educating that poor white sole on the real inventor and his race. 9 times out of 10 it is a bitter white man trying to prove superiority, not a black man trying to prove superiority.”
Wow, that is a lot of generalization. But I guess you’ve examined all white people outside of the internet hate forums to develop a highly scientific opinion. I guess you don’t possess any blind white animosity or “justifiable anger” as you put it. With a statement like that, it is clear you are fair and balanced in your approach to race relations. I guess I stand corrected, and I guess I am a bitter white man. Who knew? (You, obviously) Thank you for the lesson.
“Another example is your slavery argument. Slavery in Africa and what happened in America were not the same.”
I never compared the two, specifically. I did mention the current genocide going on in parts of africa and the capability existing for ALL humans to commit it, and how it is proven throughout recorded history and how NO GROUP is exempt from creating terrible crimes against one another and how it largely a HUMAN CONDITION…there I go again…trying to be balanced in my opinion…….
But since we are on the subject, why is slavery anywhere different from slavery elsewhere? Is there a form of “nice” slavery I don’t know about? What about genocide? There’s a friendlier version of it? So the genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, Cambodia, Armenia, Holodomor, Dzungar, Nigeria, Nazi germany, native america, and ottoman greece (to name only a few) are …how did you put it?….. oh, yes….”APPLES AND ORANGES”?!?!
Sorry, but even your lovely black ancestors “did it too”. In fact, not a single person alive today would be here without our murderous ancestors. Look at what is happening in parts of africa right NOW. When a group gets guns and power they immediately begin a campaign to pressure the marginalized group in their communities. Case after case of genocide exists. Rape, Murder, Systematic brutalization is on the record. It exists (or has once existed) everywhere. So, yes…”they did it, too.”
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Solitaire,
“So your initial statement was not meant to imply anything about race? Such as “early black rappers didn’t promote and market their music”?”
Yes and no. I was responding to Fan’s earlier statement about black culture being suspicious of white culture because, as she said, white culture was stealing from black culture. In that circumstance, I sarcastically conceded I might be suspicious of an outside culture , too….. because that is tribal thinking. This is from my race, and that is from your race. I’m not liking that mentality on any level. It’s the exact same reason I take exception to the white invention argument. How about black artists be suspicious of other humans willing to exploit them? That’s a good start. I’m sure no one in the black community ripped off an idea from another member of the black community.
The point of illustrating tesla and marconi was to suggest that it exists (and has always existed) OUTSIDE of race. These are human traits, and have very little to do with race….unless you want to spin it that way. Then by al means, it has everything to do with race. This whole concept of “what race invented what” is futile. Or do you disagree?
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@Mike
“So my attempt at being fair and balanced isn’t working for you? Sorry. I’ll keep doing it.”—Comparing apples to oranges is not being fair and balanced. Sorry you did not realize that.
“Hmm. Aside from the huge generalization you just made about white people…
have you read anything I wrote!?”—Sure I read your it, but your opinion has no bearings on the reality of how the argument is used.
“Wow, that is a lot of generalization. But I guess you’ve examined all white people outside of the internet hate forums to develop a highly scientific opinion.”—That is a straw man because I never said ALL white people, I have visited a lot of blogs and forums to view enough white people and black people exchanges to get how this argument goes down.
“I guess you don’t possess any blind white animosity or “justifiable anger” as you put it. “—-I never put it that way or used those words, but to answer your question no.
“With a statement like that, it is clear you are fair and balanced in your approach to race relations. I guess I stand corrected, and I guess I am a bitter white man. Who knew? (You, obviously) Thank you for the lesson.”—-If the shoe fits as based on you being hurt by it shows it does, because I never specified you or all white people.
“I never compared the two, specifically. I did mention the current genocide going on in parts of africa and the capability existing for ALL humans to commit it, and how it is proven throughout recorded history and how NO GROUP is exempt from creating terrible crimes against one another and how it largely a HUMAN CONDITION…there I go again…trying to be balanced in my opinion…….”—No, but the idea that you believe slavery in the US, is in anyway comparable to a person being marginalized is another apples to oranges comparison. Slavery in the USA was skin color based. It did not start out that way, but that is what it became. What is happening in Africa is largely a matter of religious and territorial issues. You can give those two things up and avoid that, but never can one give up skin color to avoid being marginalized.
“But since we are on the subject, why is slavery anywhere different from slavery elsewhere? Is there a form of “nice” slavery I don’t know about? What about genocide? There’s a friendlier version of it?”—Slavery in Africa consisted of different kinds and calling it slavery is not accurate in itself. People entered into it for debts, punishment for crime, captives in tribal wars, etc. and it was not usually for life. They had rights under the law. In America Chattel slavery made the individual property. No rights and never free. What about genocide? I simply enlightened you on your false comparison.
“So, yes…”they did it, too.””—I didn’t say they didn’t and I could go into how colonization played a major role in why they ended up doing it, but that would allow you to deflect from owning up to white men do it.
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Sharinair-
It would seem (to me) we have a lot more in common than I originally thought. On *most* ideas, we’re saying the same thing, albeit in such incredibly different ways that it seems like an argument.
I do sense contempt in some of what you say, but I could be wrong. If I’m not- well, I realize I cannot change your contempt. In that case, I can only wish you well. If I’m wrong, I apologize for reading you that way.
I think we both agree the inventor argument is an ugly, racist, piece of propaganda that does absolutely NOTHING to heal race relations in our nation. Agree?
It is my belief that any culture (race), given the same set of circumstances (and power) white people benefitted from in the past several hundred years, would/could not only be responsible for the advancements, but the atrocities as well. Do you disagree with that? Do you disagree with the notion your race is capable of mass enslavement given the exact same set of historical circumstances…a hypothetical role reversal, if you will? If you don’t think your race is capable of this- that is where we fundamentally disagree. We are all the sons of daughters of murderers.
Let me be clear on my closing thought. I am in no way attempting to be sympathetic to the crimes white culture committed on other cultures….nor am I attempting to be dismissive of slavery in america. I’m simply trying to make a case against what some black people can only see as a “white trait”. As if to say only white people are capable of evil. I sensed you might feel that way by how I interpreted your words. If I am wrong, forgive me for the oversight. If I am correct, and you DO think the crimes committed by whites are exclusive to whites only., and for that reason you feel comfortable categorizing whites in that way…we have a major rift between us, and it cannot be repaired on this blog.
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“I could go into how colonization played a major role in why they ended up doing it, but that would allow you to deflect from owning up to white men do it.”
How am I not “owning up” to it? Have I ever seemed dismissive of slavery in america? My wife is of “poor palatine” decent. Her ancestors were war refugees and were ultimately enslaved by the british in early colonial america. History says it was “servitude”, but her ancestors claim is was a lot less floral than that. Was it as bad as the enslavement of black africans? Not even close, but read on. The palatines were (white) people from a region in what is now present day germany. Her ancestors made up a very selective subculture occupying the same region of pennsylvania for hundreds of years and not a single instance of slave ownership existed among them. They had obvious reasons for refusing to take any part in the african slave trade. It was this way for her family the entire time. They didn’t even learn to speak english until a generation ago. As a white american, should she “own up” to the enslavement of black americans? When you refer to white people, you refer to a large group spanning several continents and separated into subgroups by history, region, and values. The same can be said of black people. Should black americans “own up” to the crimes in Rwonda? Should the whites of the allied forces “own up” to the crimes of the nazis?” My american ancestors include natives and black africans. I look like a white guy. None of my ancestors owned slaves, and my immediate ancestors were notorious for advocating the equality of black americans. Should I “own up” to something I took no part in? In something my ancestors took no part in? My answer? Yes, I DO OWN UP TO IT. I don’t own up to it because I had anything to do with it, and Not because my ancestors took any part in it. I own up to it from one human being to another, and because the pain (and ignorance) associated with slavery and oppression continues today. Would I change it if I could? Of course. Any decent human would. Can I make race relations better in 2015? Can you? How do we move forward? How do we initiate the healing process?
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@ MiKe
“This whole concept of “what race invented what” is futile. Or do you disagree?”
As long as a substantial number of people believe all progress has been made by the white race, it’s a conversation that needs to take place. Because people who believe that whites created civilization extrapolate from that erroneous belief to modern issues facing us today, even if they do so unconsciously and without overt racist intent.
Case in point. Back in the 1980s, a friend of mine was expressing her fear that the Japanese would overtake the USA. She asked me, “Wouldn’t you agree that all of the innovation in the last 2000 years has come out of the West?”
I looked at her stunned. While she’d been taking business courses in college, I’d been studying history. I’d just that semester been reading Muslim accounts of the appalling state of ignorance and medical incompetence in Western Europe during the time of the crusades.
I’ll tell you what I told her:
– You are typing in a writing system originated by brown people. I know you think of it as the Greek alphabet, but they borrowed it from the Phoenicians who borrowed it from the Egyptians (demotic script, not hieroglyphs; google it).
– The software your computer is running is based on numbers that originate with brown people. You call them Arabic numerals, but the Arabs actually borrowed them from the East Indians.
– If you are Christian like my friend was, you are following a non-European, non-white, Middle Eastern religion.
– Europe during the Middle Ages was a morass of ignorance and poverty. The Muslims, not the Europeans, saved the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and continued to improve on it.
– If they hadn’t transmitted this knowledge to the Europeans, there would have been no European Renaissance, no European Age of Discovery (conquest), no European Scientific Revolution.
Tesla and Marconi would not have invented radio transmission. However, it’s quite possible that scientists named Tagore and Malek would have.
I don’t have time to get into the history of rap with you, but it’s incorrect to say the early rappers did nothing to market, promote, or protect their music. There are plenty of internet overviews of the history of rap, some very detailed and well-researched books, and even a multi-volume comix on the topic (published by Fantagraphics).
“sharinalr-”
“I guess you don’t possess any blind white animosity or “justifiable anger” as you put it. With a statement like that, it is clear you are fair and balanced in your approach to race relations.”
Sharinalr has always been exceptionally friendly, fair, and balanced with me. Q.E.D.
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@ Mike
Where did you learn to talk like this? You know, like about Rwanda, Blacks as emotional and illogical (unlike you), Whites as not uniquely evil, everyone practising slavery except, of course, your own direct ancestors, your saying “ALL Whites” when people just said “Whites,” and so on? Was there like a course you took in high school? A book you read? Is it from your father? From Fox News? Where did you get all this stuff from?
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@ Mike
Right, because Negroes are lazy and not clever enough. They are like children.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/russell-simmons/.
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@MiKe:
I don’t know what that means. As far as I can tell, the narrative is that Black culture didn’t contribute anything more than a few trifling items.
I used to think this way too but now I see it is not so: Saying that X bad thing has been done by Whites does not imply that other groups cannot do or have not done X bad thing as well. Pretty much all cultures have done some form of slavery, some form of colonization, cultural appropriation, etc. Yet so too did Whites. The thing is that this blog tends to focus on White doings of those things not because others did not do them but rather because this blog has a strong Black and “People of Color” focus and especially an American one, and in that context the most pertinent form of slavery, colonization, and cultural appropriation is that done by Whites to Blacks and Native Americans and other groups. (*) And if all the Blacks you encounter are either African-American or in an American context (i.e. not just visitors from Africa) then they will probably have a similar outlook, since the American context shapes their experience. For the most part, I don’t think it has anything to do with the idea that other groups did not do such stuff, but rather the idea that Whites did and it has hurt and is hurting Blacks.
The thing about the “White Inventor” argument is it’s not merely stated as just information, or even as a neutral statement of cultural pride like other cultures, but that it is specifically used by racists to try and make Blacks feel bad about themselves and their people. It’s not just “Look what us Whites did”, it’s “Look what us Whites did AND YOU DIDN’T.” That is, it is used as a form of racial harassment. By pointing out, as Abagond does, the historical situatedness of Whites’ apparent proclivity for invention, it shows that it doesn’t mean Blacks are a bad people and Whites are the best people. thereby allowing Blacks not to have to feel so bad about themselves. That’s a good thing for Blacks — because the less you have to feel bad about, the more you can move ahead. I’m happy that Abagond works so diligently to provide the information and the posts that he does here.
(*) It is also relevant to much of the rest of the world as well, due to the unique global scale on which White colonial aggression took place, but more proximate and immediate concerns may exist in other nations from more local oppressors (who may or may not have a connection to those White oppressors but who may have their own totalizing power to inflict brutality).
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@Mike
“How am I not “owning up” to it? Have I ever seemed dismissive of slavery in america? My wife is of “poor palatine” decent.”—Anytime you throw in any and every civilization to deflect from the use of slavery in America, then you are not owning up to it. You are looking to point fingers at others to shield the blame you feel white America should receive. For example, if a young boy hits another child and his excuse is “But Buddy hit him too” then he is seeking to gain leniency because someone else did it. If he was owning up to it he would apologize for his actions, take his punishment, and move on. You are not doing that. No offense, but I don’t care about your wife’s story. Partly because she is not telling it, but Mainly because you inaccurately use her stories to gain some emotional support or sympathy. Then you turn around and ask dumb questions like this “As a white american, should she “own up” to the enslavement of black americans?”. You are having a hard time separating white from ALL white.
“When you refer to white people, you refer to a large group spanning several continents and separated into subgroups by history, region, and values. The same can be said of black people. Should black americans “own up” to the crimes in Rwonda?”—Wrong. Trying to re-frame how white is used does not make your case here or anywhere were the individuals have common sense. If I said white people have blue eyes, it is amazing how whites realize that this does not mean all white people. But let me say whites ignore slavery and people such as yourself go crazy screaming about not all white people. AS to Rwonda, You are again bringing about a false comparison. For starters not every light skinned individuals in other continents consider themselves white. Only white Americans go about applying white or black to everyone everywhere. Secondly just because you decided to make “white people” mean everywhere does not mean I have to play into your goal post shifting.
“My american ancestors include natives and black africans.”—So did mine and many others. What is your point? You act as if your ancestors accomplished something more so than many blacks who could not pass. Many lost their life. Not owning slaves did not stop you from having white privilege. Your words are steeped in it. You are easily offended by me saying white people, then claim it does not apply to you, but really if what I said did not then you would not be so upset. You want to claim everyone took part in inventions, but you have no real idea how you do nothing more than dismiss the efforts of so many POC. You try hard to pass the buck or point the finger elsewhere, in effort to avoid the reality of a white person who engages is that type of rhetoric.
“How do we initiate the healing process?”—Pure honesty and Most whites, particularly you, can not do that right now.
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@ Mike
You project US racism onto “ALL humans” and then declare it part of the “HUMAN CONDITION” , in ALL CAPS no less. Cool trick! You are not related to Dr Samuel Cartwright by any chance?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/drapetomania/
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MiKe, why do you give a crap? Surely you can impart your ‘superiority’ to other like-minded folks? Bloviating just doesn’t cut it.
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I have recently begun delving deep into this topic of “Whites have been at the helm of every creation that has lead to human flourishing”. It’s not a topic I’ve ever had an interest in… until just the other day. My brother from another mother (I’m as white as snow) and I were arguing “white privilege”–I was arguing that we (Caucasians) DO in fact have privilege. He was arguing the counter point, citing a number of lame arguments–such as “they have a black president”. My eyes still haven’t returned from the back of my head…. So that lead us down the rabbit hole. I argued many points that I feel upheld my position that I do enjoy some degree of “white privilege”, merely by virtue of my place in time. It’s not even something the majority of whites can/do stop to consider. But if we are speaking reeeeeeally generally…. if it were possible to do so, and we were to warp to ANY point in history… it would nearly always be an awesome time to be a white male. You surely can’t say the same for females or “colored” folk. That is interesting to me. So after I made a few points, he then closed by saying that colored folk are just pushing this agenda of white privilege because they’re simply too lazy or unwilling to do the hard work it takes to acheive at the same level as white folk. He went on to say it’s always been that way. He then tried to close the argument by saying that white man has made 90% of the most beneficial discoveries of human kind, and “where would civilization be” without our superior intellect. (Those aren’t his exact words. But that IS his message). I knew without digging below the surface that he’s full of shat. So now I’m devouring as much contrary information as I can, for our next discussion. I want to see him talk his way around a mountain of disconfirming information. If you have a good link to more resources, please do chime in.
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What we need are separate nations. Never allow whites to touch and ruin the brilliant African societies and we will reclaim our kingdoms and reclaim our spaceships!
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[…] Taryn, some people are sick of ignorance of white supremacists too because if everyone read more about world history they would realize that white people would be nowhere without inventions of other races! […]
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Whites plan and live for tomorrow. Dark skinned people live for the glory of the moment. JS
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Ah! Finally a White troll of my own!!!!
So Redd, when you say that Whites plan and live for tomorrow, do you mean stuff like in the Cold War, building enough nuclear weapons to destroy the entire world several times over?
Or Did you mean stuff like strip mining? Or pollution? Over-farming? Toxic waste dumps? What exactly do you mean by “living for tomorrow?”
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@King
Love that response. LOL!
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@ Afrofem
How diassapointing that he didn’t come back. What do you suppose got into him?
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Dark skinned people live for the glory of the moment.
Something you anal-retentive aholes wish you could do if you could. Stop projecting.
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What do you suppose got into him?
A quart of liquor!
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@King
One more drive by White Supremacist troll yelling nonsense….
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Living for tomorrow is less meaninful than it sounds anyway. We live our entire lives in the present. Tomorrow never comes. With that in mind, perhaps “living for tomorrow” actually enables the recklessness King mentioned. Instead of vieweing everything as organically connected to one’s existence in the unbroken present, they live for a concept that has no meaning without reference to what’s concrete (the current moment). So perhaps they believe they can be destructive without consequence because their disconnected, imaginary “future” looks pretty regardless.
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Because of our physical limitations and the fact that nothing is instantaneous, the present is a fantasy we tell ourselves. We only know the recent past.
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I am not talking about what we remember (the past) but where we actually live and have agency (if we, in fact, have any). That’s the present. At any given moment, we can’t do anything in the past or future. Those are understood as being positioned relative to the present and have no meaning without a reference point. However since “now” is fleeting, I agree that we only ever remember the past. Yet everything we have ever done was done in the present.
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@gro jo
Hmmm. Good point about the present. It often takes days or weeks to parse out the meaning of events in our present. Sometimes we are so bogged down with the minutiae of daily life, it can go by in a blur, hence the ‘fantasy’ aspect. We may not understand the full import of incidents in present life until we pause and reflect.
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[…] The white inventor argument […]
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Another day you couldn’t pay me to associate myself with the term “White”. I can’t even believe how stupid this argument is. To compare the rapid advancements of the west and compare them to the slower advancements of ancient civilizations is idiotic. Of course there was a great period of inventiveness in Western Culture. Think of the massive population advantage grouped in large cities and how much faster we could share information prior to this. The rapid rise of technology would obviously be due in large part to this and more and more universities for higher learning. Not due to the color of your skin, you morons. If all white people were the great inventors why did some white civilizations advance much slower than others. The obvious answer would be due to social-economic structures in place that promoted learning and a high emphasis on education compared to other places. The fact that this has to be explained to you tells me that a lot of white people aren’t capable of critical thinking and are quick to jump on the Great White train when it suits them for some sort of half assed reason to feel good about themselves. This is the same tired old white supremacy B.S. that has been around forever. White people are great and nevermind if you were content living your own life just be happy we saved your heathen savage race with all of our greatness and just overlook all the atrocities we committed to your people on our quest for greatness. Follow this over to the I.Q. argument how whites are superior to blacks because we genetically have a higher I.Q. But bring up how Asians on average have a higher I.Q. than whites, and you’ll get conspiracy theories and other nonsense. You’ll never get a white to concede that Asians are a superior race based on I.Q. Then you’ll get the studies that show whites have marginally larger brains and that’s why we are smarter. But again the Asian’s make that argument irrelevant as well. Large brains don’t mean large I.Q.’s. And when you look at the bigger picture here. All of these white people saying blacks are less intelligent, more prone to be violent criminals will turn around and in the same breath tell you that all people are equal and that blacks are poor because they are lazy. And also notice how frequently these people talk about black people, but then if you mention something bad about white people you are dividing the country. So this is the idiot you are arguing with and why I no longer waste my time arguing with these idiots. Its about race only when its convenient for them. its just a bunch of bitter old white people realizing they are now irrelevant and not wanted. Unable to relate to a modern multi cultural society because the only thing they know about people of color is what their mommy’s and daddy’s told them. Which is the same old B.S. passed down from generations since the days we began owning other human beings. Which I know from having deeply racist southern grandparents and a racist mother. I know the evolution of racism because I can see it in my own family. I know exactly how the modern day “I’m not racist” white person operates. And it really hasn’t changed other than you can’t just say you are openly racist anymore. You have to talk about some B.S. manipulated statistics so you can say you aren’t “racist” you are just stating the facts. And when confronted with the truth watch the great white meltdown and the “informed, intelligent” white person you were having a conversation with turns into a babbling infant.
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Racism the only thing white people ever invented that they don’t want to take credit for.
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@ Mary Burrell
Hmmm. They do duck and dodge that “invention”, don’t they?
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OGKzooSpartan wrote:
“And it really hasn’t changed other than you can’t just say you are openly racist anymore. You have to talk about some B.S. manipulated statistics so you can say you aren’t “racist” you are just stating the facts. And when confronted with the truth watch the great white meltdown and the “informed, intelligent” white person you were having a conversation with turns into a babbling infant.”
____________________________
@ Abagound,
Your site isn’t a democracy but I’m nominating OGKzooSpartan’s post on white inventions as a MUST READ to be shown on your BROKEN RECORD (W/I) page so that every drive-by RACIST, white invention bobble-head, gets an opportunity to see OGKzooSpartan’s post.
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@Afrofem
@ Mary Burrell
Like the plague.
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I find it funny that white people who use the argument protest that white inventions are superior to everyone else’s is considered fact. I find it even funnier that they believe that no one else invented anything and stick by it. And when they tell us, they never expect us to argue back. SMH.
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Egyptian inventions were caucasian. All the DNA evidence and skulls and bones proves that. And they found white/caucasian mummies under the first pyramides in China too.
http://marchofthetitans.com/#!/nordic-desert-empire-ancient-egypt/
Here is list that corrects some claimed “chinese inventions”: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t710803/?postcount=9#post8141845
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You’re joking right?
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OGKzooSpartan summed up the pathology of white racism perfectly.
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@Mefo-bill
Nordic Desert Empire Ancient Egypt
This is an example of how White Supremacist ideology warps the brains of true believers:
This is major league anti-Black and anti-Jewish projection and fear mongering.
Learning the truth about African history, including that of Egypt, would make White Supremacist heads explode.
Since when did Sweden break off from Europe and drift down to the Nile?
Too funny!
LMAO!
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Since when did Sweden break off from Europe and drift down to the Nile?
Aliens transported them. This also explains the differences between the species.
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These cyberspace drive by jackhole white supremacist are just too stupid. They are just ignorant. They really are mentally ill.
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@Mefo-bill
Both of your sources are propoganda at best. It was well know Egyptiana died their hair, but also it was home to many as it was a cross road. Do better….or not. The comedy is worth reading.
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Bees accomplish everyday stuff that’s far more important than any technological junk. They pollinate 70% of the around 100 crop species that feed 90% of the world.
And then the animals that rely on particular plant species would become extinct if those plants ceased to exist. Cattle used for milk and meat eat mainly alfalfa and lupins, both of which need to be bee-pollinated. So meat and milk production would hit rock bottom.
Cotton is pollinated by bees and other insects, so we’d be screwed for that that. Cooking oil ? Gone. Many medicines ? Gone as many are plant based.
Bees keep plants and crops alive.If bees didn’t exist, neither would humans.
It’s get worse We are losing bees at an alarming rate. And whose fault is that ?
Not black people that’s for sure.
You could spend thousand words and refer people to the books about black history by Ivan Van Sertima, Cheikh Anta Diop or watch Tariq Nasheeds Hidden Colours series
But I always say : Does not surviving genocide merit amazement ? Does not surviving the attempt to destroy a people say something about the character of those who resisted the feat ? Does not leading a struggle for freedom and equality suggest something ?
This in a nation that’s made surviving a few weeks in the big brother house or them programmes where they survive a few weeks on a island with cameras and medical help at ready, something which the last person standing walks away with a fat wallet
Funny thing is it was survival that the white racists used to argue that was the reason for their superiority. You know going to the new world, harsh winters, journey to Africa and the America, wars with the indigenous peoples,
What marked black peoples as inferior was the thought that blacks (especially blacks after emancipation) were incapable of fending for ourselves, now seeing how predictions of black extinction have fallen flat they change their tune to the white inventor argument.
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No other race of man, have ever had the capacity and capability to land humans on another body outside of earth, the Moon, and the first to put humans in space, through superior technological capabilities. To tap into the Science of Atomic Radiation and Quantum Mechanics.
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^^^ a pea brain not a p-brane.
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@Etienne
No other group of humans have ever:
☛filled the exosphere with tons of space junk (it has to come down sometime).
☛filled the oceans with islands of plastic, including microscopic particles.
☛used deadly radiation to boil water and call it an achievement (should we store the spent rods in Europe to celebrate those “superior technological capabilities?”).
☛destroyed so many species on the planet.
☛polluted so much water (fresh and salt).
☛altered the very climate we all depend on for life itself (bravo!?!).
Etienne, actions have consequences…you boast of the actions, are you ready to accept the consequences?
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Etienne, Why do you overlook the contributions of Indian, Chinese, Japanese and, yes, black scientists to the feats you mention?
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Even though this person may be just another fly-by-night troll who leaves a comment and never returns, I still should leave my two cents.
Etienne,
White people are not the only one’s with innovations and inventions that changed the course of history or benefited mankind. Yes, there have been white inventors. Brilliant ones. STILL, the greatest achievements to human kind was not, is not and never will be a whites only thing. To think otherwise is racist narcissism at its worst.
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Etienne, of the the group of pea, I mean ‘big’ brains, when you have answered Gro Jo’s and Afrofem’s questions, could you please dazzle us with your intelligence, by answering a few questions?
Why should supersymmetry allow for 5 superstrings and the strange collection of p-branes? How do you test superstring theory? And could you please enlighten us on your understanding of Vafa’s 12 dimensional theory F-theory? Is the final theory 10,11 or 12 dimensional? Why?
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What race were the Egyptian because there is clear evidthey werent black as pictures clearly show black slaves and very light coloured guards, kings and gueens. Very high chance they were greeks that enslaved black people and built what we know as Egypt
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@Rab
You need to do more research on Egyptian art. People were yellow, green, black, and even red. Skin colors represented an idea rather than the actual color of skin. Women were depicted as Yellow. Green people were considered Gods. Black actually was a depiction of a certain ethnicity (Nubian). None the less researchers have actually discovered works that show black rulers. The place was likely extremely diverse.
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@Sharina
Well said! I learned something about Egyptian art symbology. Thanks.
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Rad said,
“What race were the Egyptian because there is clear evidthey werent black as pictures clearly show black slaves and very light coloured guards, kings and gueens. Very high chance they were greeks that enslaved black people and built what we know as Egypt”
Were those pictures Hollywood movies?
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@Brothawolf
LOL! A lot of people confuse Hollywood fiction with fact.
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@Afrofem
No problem. I got into a debate some years back with a dude that swore the hieroglyphics proved that Egyptians were white, because they drew themselves as such and the black ones were slaves. After some research I found that color to them meant different things rather than an actual skin color at all.
Though from my understanding bleaching agents maybe used in recent years to make them appear “white”.
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@Sharina
“Though from my understanding bleaching agents maybe used in recent years to make them appear “white”.”
I wish I could say I was surprised by that practice.
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@Afrofem
That is why I strongly believe people of color should write their own history books. A strong effort is being made to white wash everything that paints whites as successful. A racist will not claim Jews until it comes time to claim the works of Jews. They will not claim a Mexican until it comes to take credit for a Mexican invention. Let a black invent something and he got the knowledge from them until enough years have past to put a white face on it.
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To claim Egypt is some proof that whites weren’t always the “best” race is pretty silly. The people who settled Europe and would “become” white needed more time to colonize their areas and grow in numbers than these older civilizations that were closer to the birthplace of humanity and relied on massive amounts of slaves to built their societies. Of course those cultures were more advanced for awhile.
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@Macht
Actually Egypt didn’t rely on “massive amounts of slaves” to build their society.
Ancient Egyptians were deeply religious people and often devoted months out of each year to what they considered sacred duties. That included building and maintaining temples and schools.
Even the great pyramids were the work of free people who were paid for their hard labor.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt
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Almost all the inventions of human history were products of White Europeans, 97% of the greatest scientists, etc, etc. See Charles Murray, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Accomplishment
I would add almost all the great philosophers, mathematicians, artists, architects, the list goes on, were white. The ancient civilizations of the Near East ceased to be creativity after Bronze Age, remained the same thereafter, simply growing in population and in amount of land cultivated with very little technological improvements. China too ceased to be creativity after the Sung dynasty that began in 960 and continued until 1279 AD
In fact, all the disciplines you see in our universities were invented by Whites, and universities themselves were a White invention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation
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Frans
Hate to break it to you, but wrong. A link above shows patients by non-whites. Almost all inventions were the product of white European thievery is more accurate.
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Frans
Read your link. It does not prove universities were inv