Commenter Peanut asked what I think of “Was Kanazawa Right?”, a blog post at Chateau Heartiste. I already did a post on Kanazawa’s beauty study itself, which tried to prove that black women are ugly, so this is just about Heartiste’s post:
Heartiste, whom some suspect is the blogger Roissy, says this:
I have noticed that some races just have proportionately more bangable women than do other races.
I agree. I have noticed that too. In Jamaica (91% black), for example, way more women turn my head than in Australia (80% white). But Heartiste is hardly thinking of black women as the most beautiful, what with their “unappealing prognathism” (a scientific racist way of saying they look like monkeys).
There is nothing wrong in thinking black women are uglier on average – each man has his own taste or “preference” in women. But Heartiste goes beyond that. He says that beauty is universal and measurable by science – an idea science discredited back in the 1800s.
To support his personal views on bangability, he finds a study that agrees with him:
Lewis MB (2012) A Facial Attractiveness Account of Gender Asymmetries in Interracial Marriage. PLoS ONE 7(2): e31703. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0031703
Michael B. Lewis is a white psychologist at Cardiff University in Wales. He had people rate hundreds of Facebook pictures from Britain, East Asia and sub-Saharan Africa for attractiveness. He found, among other things, that men, regardless of race, thought the faces of Asian women were on average the most attractive, black women were the least, with white women in the middle (pictured at top).
Look at who is rating the faces:
Forty undergraduates studying at Cardiff University took part as face raters either for course credit or for a small cash payment. Twenty were female and twenty were male and all were between the ages of 18 and 30 years. Of the male raters, 15 were White, 2 were Black and 3 were Asian. Of the female raters, 14 were White, 3 were Black and 3 were Asian.
There is no way anyone can draw conclusions about universal beauty, as Heartiste does, based on a sample that has only two black men. That is a meaningless sample size.
Further, both black men go to the same university in the same city in the same country and are subjected to the same Western ideas of beauty. So, even apart from the sample size, they cannot stand for all black men, men who live in dozens of countries in Africa, the Americas and elsewhere.
One argument that Heartiste dismisses is that black women, because of their dark skin, do not photograph as well. What he does not seem to understand is that colour photography and computer imaging were made to make white people look good (in particular, white porn). Black people only look as good as they do because of protests from the chocolate and furniture industries.
Heartiste shows his hand as an anti-black racist in his last paragraph, where he stereotypes black women as living on welfare and black men as “caddish” and “showboat-y”. Wow.
See also:
- Was Kanazawa Right?
- The Lewis study
- Satoshi Kanazawa: Why Are Black Women Ugly
- white beauty ideal as science
- black people as monkeys
- Are white women beautiful or is it society that makes them seem so? – my own take on “universal” beauty.
- Three Bears Effect – that thing where whites say Asians are better to avoid being called racist – even though their positive stereotypes of Asians are suspiciously the mirror-image of their negative stereotypes of blacks.
A nice gut punch to that odd grouping of socially maladjusted “pickup artist”, libertarian counter SWPL-racist crowd. I doubt they’ll be reacting much to us anymore though.
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This guy is my response to such small peckered racist, as that what it boils down to!:
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eh thanks for birddogging heartiste now i know where i shall go on friday nights when ive had (way) more than i should to drink, i have a few things to say about that all…
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i couldnt wait til friday
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This study was dumb and very inaccurate. They are so insecure that they have to have things uneven.If he wants to really find out, why not do the study with an equal number of blacks,whites,asians,and latinos. No he had to use more whites than blacks.reminds me of a jury where they have more whites than blacks to convict a black or let a white person go. They should do these studies outside of predominatly white settings they will get a different answer. Different countries have different standards of beauty,us,uk have this messed up standard that u have to be thin,tall,and blonde.The rest of the world may not find that appealing.we won’t see a study like this in other places because they gotta protect the precious white woman’s feelings,they know if they did this elsewhere people would choose differently,no they can’t have black girls and women thinking we beautiful then we might get uppity can’t have that now can we.This reminds me of when a guy tries to ask a girl out then when she rejects him and he is rude to her like fine f u then beyotch.
When black women were being raped by europeans with no say in the matter it was fine,now that we have a choice and don’t choose them they want to be rude.pfft
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LOL!!!
This again!
Let me repeat myself:
The fact that black females are CONSTANTLY on the minds of every man on earth…our “ugliness”, disdainful ways, rudeness, big arses, thick lips, nappy hair, “gorilla features and loud mouths”,….tells me that not only are we obsessively, pathologically desired by these men but they can’t do with us for one minute!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
*big satisfied grin*
You know…I hate okra. Never ate it growing up as a child. I do not:
study okra
talk about okra
write books on cooking okra
sleep with okra
develop websites bashing okra
try to kill okra
have a baby with okra
Hmmmm…………
Now then, perhaps the biggest question is:
Since you profess to hate something with such fervor, why constantly talk about it?
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So if I understand you correctly, you would accept that heartiste was right if there were more black men and women doing the rating? That seems heartless Abagond.
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Another racist white man with tiny genitalia, princess tiny meat. They lash out at women they can’t get or look for easy targets for their self-loathing non existent egos. But hey, everyone needs a hobby. This fool just so happens to be better acquainted with the palm sisters Agnes and Arlene.! Even creeps like this need a hobby!
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he’s deleting my comments
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Heartiste has long put his foot in his mouth with countless racist and sexist statements about Black women. He’s in a long line of racists losers such as Steve Sailer, Sastoshi Kanazawa, Jared Taylor, John Mayer, etc., who use sociology and science to justify anti-Black racism and misogyny.
Before he became Heartiste, he was Roissy from DC, for starters. He wrote among many things that we sistas are “sluts”, that we are “ghetto”, has enable his followers to post the worst racist/sexist views about us sistas without consequence, and is extremely misogynistic and anti immigrant to the nth degree.
I’m warning all of you that Heartiste/Roissy is a very dangerous man.
Reynawomyn
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i would gladdly show him who the alpha male is irl
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I just SMH and the stuff that passes for science these days. If I were to ask 40 people on the streets what they thought about ANY subject and suggest their opinions were indicative of the human collect I would be roundly rejected and considered a joke. The only reason the people at that sight laud the research is because it supports what they already believe to be true. Just look at the comments. No one is really supporting the theory that black men and Asian women are better looking, because that result does not jive with their world view. However the believe strongly that black women are less attractive so the readily accept that conclusion.
Personally, I don’t think any of this really matters. Just look at the type of people who frequently comment on that site. Anyone that even suggested that blacks(women or men) are attractive was attacked in some way.
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SMH, such sick and blatant racism! Men like Heartiste are wrong. Black women are beautiful and come in all shades of color yet people always want to put Black women down. I, as a young Black woman, don’t understand why people are fascinated by Black women yet they hate and put us down. Even some Black men can’t be trusted and put down Black women as well. In fact, I have had many bad experiences with Black men and I am not loud, angry or rude or fat yet many of them still treat me badly.
Blacks should learn to love themselves if they want other people to respect them.
Plus I wouldn’t give these racists and bigots any attention or mind. They aren’t worth it and they are idiots
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LOL @ Truthbetold
Exactly.
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@ Abagond
LOL @ That banner.
That young man’s face is how I feel everyday at work around them. Underneath.
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Sour grapes — As the fox struggles to reach the grapes but finds them so far out of reach, he walks away telling himself that the grapes are obviously unripe, so, he doesn’t want them anyway.
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Maybe the species is bias by albinic population hegemony and aggression.
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Ah the greatest arguement yet, like if you say the sky is green enough time it will become true. If there was a comparison of what a real life superhero was it would be a black woman. How much crap does she have to put up with and still come out stunning. I am black, if I so produce a a daughter she would have that blackness and you better damn well believe she is going to be beautiful. If this sleazy tabloid, false research, lies, and crap come anywhere near her sight, hearing or vicinity I would want her to know black women don’t sink. No matter how much brown smelly stuff comes their way they are always magnificent beautiful goddess who have overcome some of the worst things that can slinged at a person. It does not matter if she is dark as forbidden night or as light as the artic ice her blackness is from beauty is the foundation of beauty. The world turns it head to make the sky green but it is as plain as the beauty rolled across all of our people. Let them try to lie their heads off because baby they doth protest too much.
Sorry for the absence moved from Japan to America not fully done yet so I won’t be on commenting for a while. Just how can someone not enjoy the richness of our people the fullness of her lips accompaniment to the sway of those lovely hips. Hair to put a lion to shame eyes so soulful you melt away.
One cannot find thy soul separation when her highness lets you into the mix.
She plays those beats in your heart, she tickles your mind into ectasy. Black woman born rich in diversity sight so lovely your being sink
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I cant put it any better than that, King of Trouble,well said
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@peanut well this guy seems to be some type of PUA ‘pick up artist’ and he has this complicated formula for committing a type of espionage and subterfuge to sort of it would seem ‘trick’ a woman into getting into bed with him, and he, like every other get-rich-quick scheme artist, is trying to share his ‘program’ with the world,
and so he was posting about how effeminate white people are becoming, fatter, etc, and not living up to the lofty and manly goals of our predecessors, battling on the plains, being miners, etc., so i asked him why do you preach this sideways 2stepping instead of just flashing some money around, how old are you dude, i guess he didn’t like that, he woulndt be the AMOG if he left that post up, ah actually i couldn’t look at it for too long, its trifling
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@peanut the other one was a little cruder and not so fit for this site, but it was regarding him counsling an obivous lonely introvert to ‘wait four days’ to text a girl, this one in question gave the ‘IHAB’ routine blah blah it’s annoying over there, i merely go there to harrass and interdict
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Okay. What. The. Hell?
Whoever this guy is, he not only sounds like a racist, but also a misogynist as well hence the word “bangable”.
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@ brothawolf
That’s more or less what I thought when I read that: just another sexist racist.
@ Bulanik
Interesting you should bring up facial beauty versus sexual desirability. I’ve known a few women who, if someone saw their photo, he/she wouldn’t think much of them. However, in person these women glowed and had such strong magnetism. Every man found them sexy even though none of these women had the prettiest face (and their bodies were more or less average).
The golden ratio proportions have been adapted for people who are Black and East Asian (http://www.goldennumber.net/beauty/), but I wonder if it can truly measure beauty. The closer one’s face gets to beauty by golden ratio standards, the closer one gets to becoming perfectly average.
@ Kiwi
I think East Asians and those of East Asian descent are high-risk for internalised racism. For example, Black people may be more likely to realise they will never be accepted by Whites, but I think many East Asians falsely assume model minority stereotypes mean they are accepted or will one day be treated as equals and individuals because Whites already think of them `positively’.
White supremacy is far-reaching. I know someone who studied Chinese sailors visiting prostitutes abroad and, when faced with a lot of choice in regards to race they always chose the White women.
I’m so sorry for your cousin… I guess I’m lucky my father doesn’t outright hate himself for being East Asian, but he came from a colonised land and seemed to believe everything from the coloniser was superior. It’s so sad to see how much he looked up to it and how poorly it has treated him…
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I feel these “preferences” all reflect a white male point of view in a society dominated by white males that people of color have internalized as their own. There’s objective beauty which concerns youth, symmetry and health and then there are the cultural layers to that – light skin, long silky hair, light eyes and Caucasoid features, etc. that posters on Heartiste kept raving about. When it come to those cultural markers of femininity, the vast majority of black women will lose out. Nevertheless, it doesn’t prevent many black women from being viewed as quite beautiful. If perception is reality, then let me say, Kanazawa is right. Culturally, black women are on the bottom when it comes to the white, Eurocentric standard. This shouldn’t surprise anyone. For over 400 years we’ve been brainwashed into believing when are inferior in every way and we have internalized that as evidenced by skin bleaching, paper bag tests, and the fact that the vast majority of black women relax or wear weaves. Heartiste and Kanazawa are just two more racists continuing the campaign of white supremacy that reinforces black inferiority (and that of other people of color). Black women need to understand this and not buy into a beauty ranking system that has nothing to do with us. As a black woman, I am uniquely beautiful. I don’t need the assurances or approval of this racist culture.
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Why are Black people on everyone’s minds?
It’s funny–the prevalence of scientific Black Woman bashing did not gain momentum and popularity until we started rejecting European standards of beauty for naturals such as locs, twists, braids and the likes.
Could this be the white media’s subconscious way of whining about Black Women becoming self-sufficient and defining our own beauty standards? Cause to reject their ideals of beauty is to ultimately reject them?
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The most beautiful people I have ever saw were a nomadic tribe of people in Africa. Never had I seen both men and women so absolutely gorgeous, it completely blew me away. I don’t even remember the name of the tribe or what country they were in, but if you ever saw the documentary you would know immediate because there is nobody to compare them with as far as beauty is concerned.
@ topic..I couldn’t care less what white men think about black women’s beauty because I would put them at the bottom of my list of attractive men, basically because they lack longevity in the looks department, they wrinkle and grey so quickly. Most look like hell once they get to 35. You will find the odd white guy who still look decent in his 40s, but more often than not they have just 20yrs of decent looks 15-35, hardly anything to write home about imho.
For me, beauty also has to do with how long you can keep your looks without falling apart, so the 60 yr old woman with average looks, who has the features of a 39 yr old is more attractive than the 60 yr old woman who was drop dead gorgeous in her youth, but now looks like she is 70 at her age.
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cosign Mabel
esp the last parts,
and yet more evidence and another reason to ignore and seriously question “white” people when thay talk about black people esp how we look to them.
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It is amusing to see how they use this to justify saying black women are the least attractive but can’t deal w/the same inregards to this studies saying black men are the most attractive men.
Of course; the problem of interpreting “least attractive” to also mean ugly, also is there a mention of just how “far” away in looks each group is….notably better attractive or ranging anywhere from slightly to incredibly better looking?
And Black women do age much better than other kinds of women, I used to think it might have to do with having darker skin and more melanin or something but asian women, even the pale skinned ones age better than white women so I’m not totally sure anymore.
Maybe european/nilotic features just don’t stand the test of time for the most part, especially white women in the south, damn they can age brutally and quickly.
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@Kiwi
What is interesting is that during the Jim Crow and esp. pre-Jim crow era, both black man / white woman and white man / Asian woman pairings basically did not occur. It was more common to see white man / black woman and Asian man / black woman pairings at that time (1880-1960). I think the current prevalence is mostly a post WWII and esp. post 60s phenomenon.
Asian man / white woman has never been very prevalent, but I suppose it is more prevalent now than it ever was in the past.
I think you hit on something there. I think there is some deep psychological trauma on the Eurasian man who has an Asian mother who thinks like that. His mother married his white father specifically to escape being associated with an Asian man whom she views as inferior. His father, as a white man, can enjoy the white privilege of being a white man with an Asian wife. However, the son cannot enjoy either side. He perceives being identified as an Asian man is something inferior (which is validated by BOTH his parents) and he is very limited in the extent that he can tap into his father’s white privilege. About the best he can do is to promote his European surname and white upbringing, but risk being labelled as racially screwed up.
I think a Eurasian man with a white mother can get screwed up in a different way. In some ways, it is even more difficult to inherit white privilege unless he can somehow pretend like he is not part Asian (changing his name?). However, if the Asian father’s goal was to integrate more fully into the white community, his son may simply be the next stage of what the father had started (seeking white privilege) unless there is a conflicting message from the mother’s side.
Sorry, this is skewing a bit off topic.
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@Mabel,
I think you may be focusing on white men and ONLY white men which is flawed because most of these “scientific” studies/articles calling Black Women ugly are to appease white women’s fears and help white men convince themselves that Black Women are undesirable–basically their mind games.
@ Jefe,
It is true that Black Women and women who produce an abundance of melanin do not see the signs of aging until later in life as compared to their paler skinned peers. Although East Asian women produce melanin, they do not produce enough to be considered “Brown skinned”….
Dr. Susan Taylor explains it here:
http://www.brownskin.net/identity.html
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Pretty lies.
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@All
Great posts as a young Black woman coming of age I don’t care what White men think of Black women’s beauty because I know Black women are beautiful.
@Mabel
Well said, in fact, White people are jealous of the fact that us Black age much better than they do. An average White women(I am not trying to bash White women but I am telling the truth) starts aging in her early to mid 20s while us Blacks could stay looking good into old age! However there are Whites out there who take care of themselves and can age well too.
Plus I agree with you on White men. Let them stay with their White women because I sure don’t want to see the looks on his parents’ faces when they bring home a Black woman!
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jefe:
I think perhaps you may need to update your armchair pop-poli-psych models to reflect the emergence of the latest perceived threat to equality: “asian privilege”.
http://www.takimag.com/article/tackling_asian_privilege_gavin_mcinnes
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@ Randy
As usual this qualifies as a sly, misleading and pseudo -article which you are endorsing without any real thought or analysis of what “white privilege” is before attempting to declare such a thing as “Asian Privilege”.
But of course if you understood or appreciated the simply equation of what racism is:
Racism: White Supremacy=white superiority/Black & non-white inferiority
Anything that could possibly count as Asian Privilege would be seen as delusionary. A divisory tactic played against people of varying shades of colour.
Take away white supremacy which confers white privilege and everything else falls down!
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Kwamla:
The central problem with arguments about racial “privilege” is that “privilege”, at its core, embodies the concepts of inequality, and patterns of inequality.
Since “inequality” is endemic in every aspect of the natural world, so-called “privilege” will inevitably manifest, and, most importantly to consider, at all layers of social organization.
To discuss this topic with any degree of objectiveness, one must be prepared to define and seek consensus on “acceptable” privilege vs. “non-acceptable” privilege, “earned” vs. “unearned”.
These are challenging issues to be sure, and certainly more involved than simply declaring that “privilege=white privilege”.
That satirical article offers a critique of a current and popular form of “privilege” thinking.
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While Randy’s article does ignore the fact that Asian men despite being more accredited via college degree’s etc….than white men are something like 3x under represented than they should be and that while asian households do have higher income than other house holds they also have a higher tendency to have more people per house hold.
On top of that, college’s tend to cut down on asians so more white people can get into them. To the extent that at least one college that stopped having race on their entry forms doubled how many asians they had, went from 20-40% of their student population.
Though Randy’s article does bring up one problem with cutting down on over-represented groups in the population for various jobs, social positions etc…..
Is that it can get pretty uncomfortably close to racism/bigotry/predjudice itself and while it can be comfortably said that White’s get a lot due to privelige what about when it is arguably an earned position ala the asian minorities?
And the article does hint at an uncomfortable truth, get rid of white priviledge and let merit take over, very quickly we would get asian priviledge, both deserved and undeserved/bigotry versions.
Because obviously asians are going to be more comfortable with hiriing other asians and with the tendencies towards hard work and success look at them as being better even before they know anything about them.
Or to put it another way; get rid of priviledge and one group is still likely to come out ahead of the others, that group will be more likely to hire from their own, eventually a lot of white priviledge, sooner or later, will transfer to them like simply hiring people you know, family, friends etc….versus the out and out bigotry aspects of priviledge.
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Basically the whole point of affirmitive action is to ensure that people get equal opportunities, white women, PoC etc…..
But what happens when one group has more priviledge/success than the others and it actually is earned?
Do we still cut down on their representation and people to give others equal chances in life?
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@Kwambla
”Racism: White Supremacy=white superiority/Black & non-white inferiority
Exactly, that is why Blacks and minorities in America can’t be racist even if they are prejudice against people of other races and cultures. Blacks and other minorities don’t have the power to oppress that person and keep that person down economically, socially and politically the way Whites have done to Blacks and non Whites for centuries. In other words the oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor. This is tied into Randy’s perspective about so called ”Asian privilege”. ”Asian Privilege” might exist in his mind but in reality it doesn’t. An Asian man living in America is a minority and suffers discrimination but he may have an advantage over his White male counterparts for being intelligent. And how does an minority have a ”privilege” over a White person like Randy, who is clearly the majority of the population in America.? I would like some explanations about that.
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Is Randy serious?? Does he honestly don’t get it, or is he pretending?
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I don’t care who you are, how white you are, what kind of a racist you are, if and when you meet a beautiful black woman, the game is over. KKK guys drooled over black women, slave owners had to have them, even the nazis liked looking naked african women in the photographs, document films and on the stages of Paris. Any attempt to deny this is ridicilous. I have seen this happen many, many times over and over again. And the most beautiful woman I have ever seen in my life was a black woman in USA. She was a beauty in every classical sense, by any standard. Period.
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Lol sounds like randy is tired of seeing everything he buys having the sticker made in china on it. Asian priviledge,don’t make me laugh. Is it priviledge to stick together,build businesses,and get educated? No it’s not its a lost way of america,asians stick together and have their parents/grandparents live with them. don’t be mad because someone is being more successful than you. THat article was funny,the reason asians can do all those things is because of whites stereotypes of them.They assume asians are the model minority and let their guard down,but with other minorities they are more guarded.Now that yall are waking up to the fact that asians are starting to take over and surpass whites now its asian priviledge.No its hard work and using white’s weakness [stereotypes and greed] against them to succeed.
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@V-4,
Those are exactly the kinds of challenging questions to raise and deal with if a substantive dialog about privilege is to take place.
Adeen:
Of course blacks can be racist. Anyone can. Injustice isn’t determined to have occurred only when a person is capable of inflicting the most possible injustice possible.
Individuals of all races can and do oppress people of their own and other races quite readily.
brothawolf:
The article was satire, but it exposes how an extrapolation of a type of popular opinion about “privilege” is readily observed to be absurd, thus illuminating a similar perspective about “privilege” along the white-black axis.
“But that’s different!” perhaps you might retort. Ok, then how is it different? You may answer V-4’s questions on the subject if you prefer them to mine.
mstoogood4yall:
Are you suggesting that when white people succeed, it’s “bad privilege” but when asian people succeed it’s “good privilege”? That sounds rather biased.
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[…] He found, among other things, that men, regardless of race, thought the faces of Asian women were on average the most attractive, black women were the least, with white women in the middle (pictured at top). […]
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Privilege is privilege to my mind, and the only East Asian privilege which comes to mind at the moment is the fact that some East Asians, based on the “model minority” and/or “high IQ” stereotypes, might find high level employment (especially in certain fields) much more effortlessy than, say, an equally qualified Black or Latino person might.
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@Kwamla
Kudos to you for recognizing exactly what that article is – a rehashing of the model minority stereotype. This is a disgusting tactic.
@mstoogood4yall
Kudos to you too for recognizing the blog link as a rehashing of the model minority stereotype. No self-respecting Asian-American, or any seriously self-respecting American or non-American for that matter would believe any of that cr*p.
The blogger is obviously clueless. The following excerpt highlights the danger of this cluelessness.
Comparing Jeremy Lin, an native-born American (with Taiwanese-born parents) with the butchery of early 20th century Japan is so ridiculous, yet harmful. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was bombed by white Americans. What does that say? And Detroit — the site of the fatal but unpunished beating of Vincent Chin. PLEASE.
Sorry that we have strayed a bit off topic.
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That blog article was even worse than I thought.
“This is because in America, Asians live a disproportionately advantaged life where things are simply handed to them.”
“They are drastically overrepresented in Nobel Prizes. ”
“As a people, these Asians need to recognize they got to where they are not by the virtue of hard work but by stepping on the backs of others.”
“If an Asian gets into a good school, other students don’t assume it’s because of affirmative action.”
“Asian American success has been awarded to them arbitrarily and it’s up to us to take back the power and eradicate this unearned system of advantage.”
The blogger is actually calling for a reaffirmation of white privilege. I am sure that any modicum of “success” has been awarded to them arbitrarily. For example,
“We need to redesign social systems where Asians are not 75% to 80% of university mathematics departments. By staying cloaked in the myth of meritocracy we are denying the latent power of the underprivileged.”
So, the blogger is again asking for a stronger affirmation of white privilege, where people get their positions NOT based on meritocracy, but on a system that guarantees their privilege.
And finally
“You don’t need epicanthic folds to see that simply by the virtue of their success Asians are seriously and systematically oppressing people of color.”
implying that it is Asians oppressing blacks, not white people playing the model minority myth against other POC and essentially oppressing both.
I need to find a sink. I’m about to throw up.
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I mean that success has NOT been awarded to them arbitrarily.
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Randy,
This is correct Randy…I’d agree with this. It shows you actually do understand what the concept of “white privilege” represents.
But unfortunately this is where your thinking goes awry….
This is a basic mis-conception on your part and obviously guides your thinking in the area of where the idea of privilege originates from. I am afraid this is a false belief which is plaguing your inner consciousness: “…inequality… is endemic in every aspect of the natural world…”
No it is not!
The Western societies we live in and have constructed are based on models where inequality is integrally and systematically embedded. – But these societies are not a true reflection of the natural world we exist in.
We only have to look around in all areas of life social, economic, health etc…to see this truth. They are in conflict with the natural world and our environment. They ARE NOT in harmony!
If inequality was endemic in every aspect of the natural world then our constructed societies would also reflect this and be in harmony too.. The natural world, as we perceive it, is in harmony. – We couldn’t continue to function on the planet if it wasn’t.- But our societies are not?
Perhaps, you need to attempt to re-examine your initial false construct for a moment. Then maybe you might begin to realize and appreciate the damage the additionally accepted false construct of white supremacy (white privilege) has done, and continues to do, in our societies…
And also to your consciousness and the consciousness of similar like minded people who endorse this view…
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jefe:
You appear to have completely missed that the article is satire, and perhaps in doing so, made its message more impactful. Perhaps I can help.
The claims above, and others in the article, were written to mirror similar claims made by those discussing white privilege, with the assumption that success by white people is inherently “unearned” and thus to be corrected.
Your moral and logical objection to those claims, when directed against asian people, are the same objections that people who argue against the idea of “white privilege” make.
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Kwamla:
Bulanik:
Inequality of an organism’s abilities and inequality of fortune are precisely what has driven evolution for billions of years. Some gazelles as faster than others and escape the hyenas. Some don’t. The rains fall plentifully on some fields where the plants and animals flourish and don’t on others where they perish. I can’t believe that this idea is in any way controversial.
Ultimately privilege, even the earned type (aka “the good kind” or at least the “less bad kind”) derives from variations in the natural environment.
Even in a perfectly meritorious society some will thrive more than others, owing to differences in innate abilities and the vagaries of fortune. These advantages will tend to be passed on to the next generation who will have a leg up.
If you’re concerned about “privilege” deriving from factors that you believe to be less fair, such as from prejudice, then you need to offer a method by which you’re able to distinguish between the two. Much of the current thinking about “privilege” fails to do this.
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Weird. “Asia”, even if limited to “East Asia”, comprises a giant percentage of the world’s population and a huge range of visual types, from Chinese to Filipino to Samoan. I guarantee that I could find millions of “Asian” faces that white Europeans or Americans would see as “ugly”.
But the study is focused not on merely beauty, but “bangability”. In that reagard, I can attest from personal experience that no matter how pretty an Asian woman’s face happens to be, when the trousers come down there is a distinct sense of disappointment about what isn’t in them. “Baby did you have the butt cancer and have the booty amputated?”
Unless, of course, they’re figure skaters.
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@ Bulanik
Yes! We both were struck by Randy’s weird assumption: “…inequality is endemic in every aspect of the natural world…”
This is just madness and a so obviously a false construct as you so succinctly put it:
But at least it does provide a clear insight into how Randy perceives his world. Rather than looking at the natural world with all its delicately interconnected balanced systems as you’ve correctly observed. Instead he projects on to it his own unquestioned assumption of “inequality” as a natural attribute and attempts to explain his own observations of the natural world through a tainted cracked lens.
Of course Randy will disagree with this analysis because he doesn’t want to question his “…inequality is a natural phenomenon in nature…” assumption.
Here’s a thought for Randy to consider….
Those things which are “natural” in nature we tend to accept and don’t contest. Things like “Food Chains”, “inter-dependent systems” , “Growth”…etc…We don’t contest such observations. We acknowledge them, they exist, they are purposeful.
If “inequality” was also one of those natural things we could observe. Then why do we fight and contest it so much? Why don’t we just accept it?
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Kwamla:
For the most part, people do accept it albeit with varying degrees of regulation. These regulations generally attempt to strike a balance in terms of individual and societal benefit.
Attempts to enact universal equality have ended disastrously.
Are you a parent? If not then you surely know at least one.
Have you ever heard a parent say:
“Child, you are hungry, but I will not feed you because other children are hungry, and it is not fair to give you food privilege.
Child, you are cold, but I will not clothe you because other children are without clothes, and it is not fair to give you clothing privilege.
Child, you are thirsty for knowledge, but I will not teach you because other children are without teachers, and it is not fair to give you knowledge privilege.”
I’m betting that you have never heard this before, and nearly all parents you would ask would find this idea absurd. Certainly you will not find this in nature.
For any parents who claim to be against “privilege” and who also have not made these types statements to their children, how do you reconcile your seemingly contradictory beliefs?
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Randy,
The more you write, the more you seem to out perform yourself! Its controversial because you’re painting a warped perspective of the natural world we observer.
What you are doing, which you obviously seem unaware of, is incorporating value judgements into your observations and assessments.
Which is why you see no problem with making statements like this:
In a society based on equality and justice for ALL. Everyone would be allowed to thrive regardless of their innate abilities and the vagaries of fortune. It wouldn’t matter! If everyone is able to thrive what would be the advantage?
Basically you are saying some people (you value as more able) should be allowed to thrive. And some (you value as less able) should be left to struggle and perish. And that those who thrive should be allowed to continue through successive generations to keep on thriving. While those who don’t…Well its easy to guess what should happen to them….!
Theories such as Evolution over billions of years as: “Survival of the Fittest” tie in very nicely with the ideology of white supremacy and its implications of “naturally inherited white privilege”.
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Bulanik, odd that you’d reach that conclusion based on my post, which does not discuss the beauty of black women.
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Bulanik:
Kwamla:
When discussing “privilege” in the context of first-world countries, we’re not talking about the extremes of genocide or starvation.
Even the “have nots” in these countries are provided with basic necessities. The objection that some have against the perceived existence of unfair “privilege” involves differences in levels of success between people, not life or death.
Kwamla, to use your example, the relevant discussion is about whether or not (and to what degree) certain people should be able to thrive more than others, not whether some should live and some should perish.
Narrowing the focus thusly, are you not bestowing upon your children “privilege” over the less fortunate if you feed, clothe, and teach them?
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Randy to some extent does have a point.
Cheetah’s eat gazelle’s to feed themselves, to give themselves energy and to help them carry out their goals like expanding their territory.
Human society is more complex, but thats basically why Europeans annhilated the Tasmanians, to gain territory and give themselves resources to help keep “energy” in their society.
Of course the big difference, is that we expect humans to have some basic sense of morality as compared to say animals.
He also has another point, its not a matter of vast groups of people in the US starving to death or dying from working themselves to death in their early 20’s.
Its matter of what is enough thriving and who deserves the resources; because lets be honest, compared to a lot of the world, literally almost every one in the US is thriving. Our poor is middle class compared to most.
And it is true; if your a person in a position of priviledge, by giving the under priviledged more chances, you have to know there is a possibility you are denying your own children chances they would only get via priviledge, whether earned or not.
And he has a point; there is priviledge in the natural world and there is also balance, the balance is achieved by giving certain groups priviledge over others.
Predator vs Prey and so on…..of course prey animals usually reproduce more, arguably have greater amounts of territory and could be said to be flourishing and thriving more than most predators….so priviledge is a tough argument to make in the natural world aside from having better enviroments to survive in.
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Bulanik:
The point of bringing up the natural world was to demonstrate that even in the absence of so-called “unearned privilege”, some people will succeed more than others, owing to uneven distribution of talent and fortune.
Therefore, when discussion privilege, it’s useful to acknowledge that differences in achievement will always exist, and further are likely to be passed on to the next generation. Thus, one cannot make a determination of “unearned privilege” simply on the basis of different success outcomes among people.
Bulanik:
In such a situation, a person would need to make a difficult calculation about net benefits to family members when dividing up limited food resources.
Bulanik:
Your question includes two related and contestable propositions:
1. Economics is a zero sum game. Thus, for me to gain another must decline.
2. It’s necessarily in one person’s interest to deprive others of resources.
I’d disagree with both propositions given that economics is not zero-sum, and social animals can accrue benefits when the community flourishes.
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To Bulanik:
I take it then, Blanc2, that black women’s facial beauty isn’t a turn on for you…
A bit of a non sequitur since Blanc2 didn’t mentioned Black women. (FWIW I do not agree with his statement about the bodies of Asian women…)
Blanc2 used to be a frequent poster on Abagond’s site and is married to a Black woman so I would think he found at least one Black woman attractive. As I remember he has made comments in the past stating that in general he found black women more attractive than White women.
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To Bulanik:
I take it then, Blanc2, that black women’s facial beauty isn’t a turn on for you…
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Forty undergraduates studying at Cardiff University took part as face raters either for course credit or for a small cash payment. Twenty were female and twenty were male and all were between the ages of 18 and 30 years. Of the male raters, 15 were White, 2 were Black and 3 were Asian. Of the female raters, 14 were White, 3 were Black and 3 were Asian.
A very small sample size, limited to University students in Wales… .. Err… I d’ say this basically means squat. Also as I understand it Asian in Britain generally means someone from the Indian sub-continent and not East Asian as is generally assumed in the US.
If printed on paper, in a desperate mood, I would use this study as toilet paper. Even then Charmin or Scott tissue would be preferred.
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To Bulanik:
My comments:
“A very small sample size, limited to University students in Wales… ”
Your comments:
“Just a British study with British people, i.e., worthless.”
Straw-man fallacy.
I am in agreement with Abagond.. the sample size for the survey overall was much too small to represent the opinions (especially of Asians and Blacks..) of the world or even that of Britain. If the sample size were markedly larger and more diverse (by age, race, class, and geographical location within Britain..) it may have had some validity, at least for Britain.
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Bulanik, I was being facetious. There are beautiful women of all shades and hues, with great shapes, etc. And non-beautiful ones too. I happen to find black women most attractive all things being equal, but that’s just my “speed” as one of my buddies says.
I used to post a lot more here but life became busy. I find Agabond’s blog fascinating and read it often. Well informed, interesting perspective, well written.
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Bulanik
But of course!…As we know Randy… This is precisely what he loves to do. For the simple reason he sees himself (privileged) able to say anything he wants without the need to question or take responsibility for it. Again, this trait is common in any mode (conscious or sub-conscious) of white supremacist thought and thinking.
It’s part of the unquestioned underlying logic: There is nothing to be questioned. Things just are…?!
Yet… Neither you or I made numerous references or associations with the natural world – Randy Did! – which he now seems to want to distance himself from with comments like this:
So as usual we are left to do the analysis for him…
This is classic Randy obfuscation (shifting the “goal posts”) because any one who has read his just previous comments would have found this clear inference about “life or death” in the natural world. Which I even went to the trouble of re-quoting to him:
Perhaps Randy has a more benevolent interpretation of “flourish and perish” than is commonly known or understood!
What I found fascinating from Randy’s last comment about:“…in the context of first-world countries…” Was that it could so easily be interpreted in other contexts too…
So we can see Randy makes a “quite not unreasonable” point about how we might be confusing the extremes of genocide or starvation (life and death) with the simple differing levels of success between peoples!
Do you now see that Bulanik? It would be quite unfair for Randy to have to keep pointing this out to us again simply because we were unable to appreciate it!
Of Course!!!! Inequality is a “natural way” of life its always been there. Its underwritten by “natural laws” (Survival of the Fittest) in the plant and animal kingdom. And our countries (first, second and third world ones?) simply reflect this “natural inequitable provision”. Which the “first world” countries naturally would want to protect and pass on as their “natural unearned privilege”…It all makes sense to me now!
I trust this is now clear for you to see Bulanik as it is for me… !
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@ Randy
Rather than trying to extricate yourself from the tangles of your previous comments concerning inequality and the natural word. Maybe you might find this question easier…
Can you can explain how our present economic system is not based on zero-sum model; and how do social animals (humans) accrue benefits when the community flourishes?
(Don’t forget to include what happens when the community is not flourishing!)
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Bulanik, I had forgotten about that thread, but on re-reading I agree with you that I misconstrued your post. That’s what being in a hurry and skimming rather than reading can cause. I guess that’s why I don’t post much these days. Life is a whirlwind of work and family responsibilities that barely allows time for a good night’s sleep, never mind reading the often interesting and insightful comment threads on Agabond’s blog.
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Bulanik:
“Straw-man fallacy my arse!”
Yes it was, even if meant in jest.
“I was making a joke. Noted that smiley?”
You associated the smiley with “Back to your most fancied location..”
My most fancy location being a toilet..? Certainly came across as an insult… wrapped in a joke I suppose.
A good portion of your posts to me have been usually been a mixture of straw-men mixed with petty insults so it would appear you were being consistent.
Maybe you truly were trying to friendly in your response and I misunderstood you but given our past interaction it didn’t come across that way to me.
…dead set on making others look ridiculous. ..
You are making a number of invalid assumptions.
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@ Bulanik
LOL!!! 🙂
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@bulanik Straw-man is one of the categories of fallacies it’s how to lie
cf: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
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@Bulanik and Kwamla,
I’m not sure how your recent questions relate to the (admittedly off-topic) topic of “privilege”. Perhaps moving forward we can all to reference how any side arguments relate to the main topic of discussion.
If you’d be kind enough to restate your questions, I’ll answer them.
My belief is that any meaningful discussion of “privilege” needs to consider what is to be considered “earned” vs. “unearned”, a challenging topic compounded by an understanding that differences in natural ability as well the randomness of fortune will tend to create differing success outcomes among people, which will tend to be passed down to following generations. Over time, this persisting pattern may ultimately be perceived as “privilege”.
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Bulanik:
I “pulled out my ass”?
Wasn’t that the first time you had responded to my comments?
For some reasons, I didn’t think it was a particularly kind or fair thing of you to say. Perhaps talking about by rear was your way of being “polite”!
Do you mean this comment..?
I clarified my meaning here:
“My comments…were directed towards HBD types…or anyone bringing in criminal activities in other countries and comparing them to the US.”
So it was never about any of your body parts nor really your ideas but more so the ideas of HBD types and other white racists.
“the petty insults..”
I try to avoid insulting anyone on this blog… Abagond would likely ban me if I did so on a routine basis and certainly has banned other people for doing so.
I agree with this policy and adhere to it as best I can.
I do take issue with certain ideas and logic.. and sometimes argue rigorously against those ideas but that does not mean I feel the person presenting those ideas is inferior.
Also, you use this word “straw man” again and again.
I take it this is an American expression, as I’ve never used this word “straw man” and can’t recall hearing it much in my side of world.
Abagond has used the term straw man multiple times, one example:
So I thought you were familiar with the term, not meaning to pander but I do recognize that are educated and intelligent. I suspect American Universities are more apt to use these terms.
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I agree with what poetess said. As black women, we shouldn’t pay any attention to studies/theories like this. White men should be allowed to have their own standard of beauty and of course black women will be at the bottom for them, white culture is anti-black.
There was a british study done recently where they claimed most White men found Asian women faces to be the most feminine of all races. I find that odd, but I won’t get into why. I don’t think it’s something we as black women can give a hoot about because whites in general dislike us, don’t think we should hold many jobs and think we should be at the bottom. White men, in general are jealous of “black beauty”. it’s weird but how it is.
I see though why some want to respond to those who try to publish those articles as universal truths.
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Also in that heartiste link; don’t they talk about how white women were actually the single most flucuated race inregards to how they are viewed via standards of beauty?
By that I mean, they are ranked up there higher than most but they are also viewed as being ugly than most as well.
Or to put it this way; most people are average but when white people are pretty they are real pretty and when white people are ugly, they are “reeeal” ugly.
It wouldn’t amaze me that asian women are considered prettier on average, after all they are like 3 times less likely to be over-weight or obese than white women are.
Thats an advantage right there.
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Scientific study with less than 30 persons looking at the images?? Professor in Cardiff must be one of the laziest guys around.
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Peanut, I guess that to a great part it is just the taboo-breaking aspect of BM on WW, just like incest porn is rather popular too. It may be that black on white porn is more popular among white men, I guess that that could be explained by demographic factors (More white men with the freedom and the money to buy it, for instance), but otherwise it suggests that the taboo is stronger to them.
Now there is a dark past in which white men could breed black people as animals. That may play a part, though for some reason very few (semi) pornographic productions are set against that background. I guess that the forces of the taboos of their Jim Crow past are still strong in them.
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@ peanut
Idk, only they know why they do it. I only have theories as to why they do it. Some say it could be white man’s guilt for forbidding white women from being with non whites or it could be instead of working on what he perceives to be inadequacies he gets a black man to fulfill it. Its kinda like how they outsource jobs so they can get more money and more labor, but they are still the boss. They giving their wife to other men to do what they think they cannot do or don’t want to do, but they still the husband[boss]. IT could be they are both curious as to if the stereotype is true,and think black men are like some type of sx gods or something. shoot idk, you’d have to go to the dark part of ur mind to understand this sheit, its like to catch a serial killer u gotta think like one. smh anyway here’s a link http://lindy1950.tripod.com/arco-iris/terrance-dc.html
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Peanut
And also, what do white women say when they talk about what they want a man to look like? Tall, dark, and handsome, so that could be it as well, they know they not those things and so they get someone who is. They are willing to pay or sacrifice their marriage for some dark meat smh. I think they enjoy seeing their wife with a black man it makes them feel superior and safe like oh my wife wouldn’t fall in love with a savage and won’t run off. u posted an article saying how a mandigo gone wrong where the wife fell in love with the black man and her husband ended it then she killed him. So they think oh they are breeders so I don’t have to worry about my wife falling in love with him and him falling in love with her, because he is an animal and animals fk and keep it moving. They do provide what they can, and what they can’t they get somebody who will. Just like with slavery, they couldn’t do the work so they got people who could. So I guess in their mind they are giving their wife everything, they provide the nice house, nice car and all the other material things, while the black buk provides some pleasure. They admire black mens strength, just see how they look at fit black men in the gym with envy. Or see how fast some black athletes are and they keep asking why are black ppl so fast and athletic,smh. They are curious to see that strong black male being with his weak, innocent, petitie wife. ITs opposites yin and yang, oh and yin and yang symbol is black and white lol. And also I read somewhere that some men have some type of spiritual thing where they have sx with other men and think they are giving their strength to another man through their seed. That could be they feel the black man is giving his wife some kind of awakening or something h11 idk. They are fascinated by black sexuality I think because part white supremacy, where they don’t want black men and women getting together. And part envy of our spirituality, sensuality, love, emotion and sexiness which is what great sx is made of rofl. so I guess they think by their wife having sx with a black man some of that will rub off on her lmbao. oh yea something will rub off on her alright, u keep being with all those different men some std will rub off on ur arse.,smh
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Peanut, I have to agree with teddy1975. A lot of porn is about getting off on degrading women. That’s why white guys(probably black guys, as well) are into white woman/black guy porn.
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Dang peanut, I wonder the same thing, but I do think part of it is an ego boost. the other part is this, well why wouldn’t black men want my white women I mean I worked so hard to put them on a pedestal and make sure their beauty is seen all around the world and is on the cover of magazines even in predominately black countries. Maybe this is also why they give black couples the stink eye as well.They hate being proved wrong, and can’t believe some uppity negroes didn’t drink the koolaid, I mean are they too good I thought all ni@@rs liked koolaid.smh I think they hate seeing black men and white women dating romantically but casual sx is nothing to them. As far as why white men seek black women for flings, well just look at history. They’ve been having a woman of color on the side. By having black women on the side with nobody knowing it keeps their perfect image and white womens superiority in tact. They have a white wife at home and is their trophy then they seek out black women as a side thing, to do what their wife won’t do. Its the reason why some men cheat down when they have a dime on their arm, she fine but a lot of them may act bougie in the bedroom rofl. Basically its a god complex, I mean why wouldn’t us negroes not want a powerful, superior white man/woman, the epitome of beauty and grace or so they’ve been telling us. They tell so many lies that they start to believe them, moreso than the ppl the lies were intended to deceive. It’s also movies and media that portrays white women as the standard that makes them assume why would anybody In their right mind not want them? Just like what sgrt williepete said they show unattractive black women and then they show attractive white women, instead of having it a level playing field where they show attractive white women and attractive black women, because they think they’d lose. I’m no lesbian but come on I can see when a woman is beautiful and there is nothing like a healthy, confident, comfortable in her own skin, black woman.
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@ Peanut
what so a black man told u that a white man told him that he could get a white woman easily? wtf, I’ve heard some black men say that white guys will try to befriend them and say oh u could get a lot of white women. U know I don’t see why they’d say that it’s like they trying to ho white women out lmao. Its like an auction, get ur white women here black men, we starting bids, give me 50, come on folks this is a high value vintage white women, ooh I got 50 over here, I see 100 going once going twice sold, to the black man in the corner, enjoy sir.
“it’s that I worry about the impact that that would have on a younger, insecure Black man’s thinking…and how that would affect his perception of Black women?”
Now with this, its up to the parents to teach their sons the value and beauty of black women. Imo if a man can’t see that and just believes what massa and the white media says that isn’t a man i’d want to give the time of day to. Most of those types don’t know themselves or their history and have no idea where the h11 they going. Conscious black man is what I want, yes sadly a lot of the ones now aren’t. I do think with all this stuff happening ,more are starting to awaken. At the same time I feel like black women need to focus on healing ourselves and getting our sheit together. Then when the men see that we are changing collectively for the better and see more awake, conscious, healthy black women, then we’d see who is real and who isn’t. who will step up and who will step back. quality over quantity.
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Hmm. Why were black men, adjusting for intelligence, more attractive, while black women were less? *gasp* Could it be that, within the tested age range – the results were accurate – even within the confidence intervals constructed by normal approximation? No! It can’t be! Races of people can’t look better or worse! That’s awful. You’re racist! Society’s racist! Wait- if I take people from outside the west – maybe just maybe…but what if they agree with the previous data?! Then God’s racist for making some races ugly! No…I can’t…..wahhhhh, huwahhhhh! Mommy! Daddy! Dose people ovuh dere said I wuz ugwee! Not everything goes your way Abagond. I respect your blog, but sometimes, you’ve just gotta admit- life isn’t fair- and black women need to accept what they have and do the best they can with it. That’s really all anyone can do- no one’s perfect.
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