“Whites are not uniquely evil!” is a common straw man argument that White American commenters on this blog bring up. Even though I have never said otherwise. It is like they are trained to say it.
I have not even said that whites are the most evil people in history. Maybe the Mongols are worse. Who knows? How in the world would you even determine such a thing? I do intend to write a post on that question – but it will probably be a parody of all those black crime statistic arguments.
Because it is all beside the point. I think everyone knows whites are not the only people who have done evil in history. So to keep bringing it up comes off as either some kind of weak “Everyone does it” excuse that eight-year-olds use or as a way to draw attention away from the evils of white history.
But if whites are not the only evil people in history, then why write so much about them and not, say, Mongols too? There are two reasons:
- My position in history. For reasons of simple self-interest and self-understanding, the past, present and future of Black Americans concern me most. And in that history whites are the main evil. That is just how it is. I did not create the world I find myself in. If I were Darfuri, no doubt I would write about the Arabic-speaking Sudanese. If I were Palestinian, it would be the Israelis. Etc.
- Unbrainwashing myself. Like most Americans, “white is right” has been pounded into my head. So much so that it has affected how I see myself. So much so that it has taken great effort to unlearn the lies. Part of that unlearning is seeing White Americans for who they truly are, not who they present themselves to be.
In short, I cannot afford to live by the lies white people live by.
Mainstream American culture makes whites seem much better than they are and blacks seem much worse than they are. Compared to that this blog might seem like it is pushing a line of “blacks are good, whites are evil,” like it is bashing whites. In fact, I am trying to see both as they are,
To those whites who feel the need to defend their history, my advice is: “Don’t.” The bad parts should be roundly condemned by any honest person of any race with any sense. Defending or excusing evil makes you part of that evil. It makes future evils more likely. Worse than making a mistake is not learning from it.
White people need to get over this idea that they are somehow special. They are not. They are just like everyone else. But by putting up this front that they are better than most, they make themselves worse than most – because it means they turn a blind eye to the evil they do.
See also:
You might have some credibility if you owned up to black shortcomings rather than blaming everything on “racism”. Yeah yeah, you’ll occasionally admit that blacks have shortcomings to give yourself the appearance of objectivity. But then you go right back to blaming everything on whites again.
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@Duck
Sit down grab a beer, pop the top, take a long pull, and go back, way back and start reading this blog.
Every person is different, every circumstance is unique.
What works for me won’t work for you. (Believe me)
Take the info here, slowly work your way through it.
(Sort of like a simple math problem)
See where you end up.
Remember if you fudge the inputs, the answer will be wrong / misleading.
Finish your beer and, clasp your hands together, put them behind your head, lean back, close your eyes…….think critically.
Then come back and ask some well thought out questions.
A lot of people here would be glad to answer them for you.
Remember,
Quality questions = Quality answers.
You re welcome.
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For once, I totally agree
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@ Duck:
I know how to achieve credibility with whites and their hangers-on but I do not like the taste of boots:
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@ abagond
I’ve noticed a few of the tactics you use to skirt arguments you can’t answer. One is to simply write a parody. Another is to write a post titled something like, “What White Racists Say” in which you simply list others arguments. And the last is to declare it off limits the way you did with crime stats and IQ in the “broken records department”.
In no case do you actually address the opposing argument. You assume it sufficient to merely list it under a parody or pejorative title. And then, of course, when someone uses that argument readers will say something like, “Yeah, There they go!” or “I know that’s right” or “See! Abagond was right!” But the point that you miss is you rarely ever disprove anyone’s argument.
Now, in the case of the “five rules” post you just linked none of them are particularly unique to whites. Of course, your expected answer will be something along the lines of, “Well, I never said they were unique to whites” and claim its a strawman. Yet, you will always present such things as if they were unique.
There was no real point to this post. I was just mentioning some observations.
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I get you , Abagond…There is so much media manipulation and hype , and, so much dogma in place , that we are always getting a twisted picture of the truth…
We all have to go inside ourselves and look for the truth about our history ( speaking about America now, but, it sure could be aplied to Brazil, where I live) , and find a way to untangle the lies and bs
I urge you , Duckgoofs, to really examine American history, the slavery, the Jim Crow, the discrimination in all aspects of life that black Americans have had to face , just in my lifetime, they integrated things like baseball ( maybe just before I was born, but, really close), overturned miscagenation laws against marraidge, and went through huge struggles in integrating schools and getting affirmative action in the work place…and really ask youself if there isnt a hypocritical streak running right down the middle of our country as far as race is concerned…
And that, black Americans have a right to have indignation at this, anger and vigilance as far as white people and the institurions that perpetuate this condition of racism and discrimination
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The unbrainwashing part is important. Growing up in the US as a minority, I unwittingly saw the white majority as a larger family to join. When I reached adolescence, races started to self-segregate whereas we all used to play together. I think the sting of being rejected by this larger group silently weighed on me. And unwittingly, I was programmed to seek their approval, and diminish the importance of people like myself (and other minorities). I’m amazed how long it takes to shake off that programming. The other thing I’ve noticed is as I’ve trained myself (“inner game” I suppose) to not view whites as special or important, my relations with them have actually improved. What a strange thing.
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>In no case do you actually address the opposing argument
Duck- the irony is that in two posts you’ve had on this one thread, you haven’t responded to Abagond’s arguments at all. She made a few substantive arguments about not trying to rationalize history, etc. – and I don’t see where you addressed any of that.
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@chris t: she?
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Duck,
You said, “You might have some credibility if you owned up to black shortcomings rather than blaming everything on “racism”. Yeah yeah, you’ll occasionally admit that blacks have shortcomings to give yourself the appearance of objectivity. But then you go right back to blaming everything on whites again.”
You’ve demonstrated what I’ve always thought and said: blaming whites for anything is a cardinal sin.
No one is blaming white people on everything, nor are we blaming racism for everything. However, that is not to say that the former is perfect or the latter doesn’t exist at all. Yes. Black people have shortcomings, but guess what? SO DO WHITES AND EVERYONE ELSE. No group of humans is perfect, better or worse than the next.
It just seems like you’re desperately trying to shield white people, or rather yourself, of any responsibility or accountability for pretty much anything collectively, but then you would point the collective finger at blacks.
I’m just saying.
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@DucK
I have a serious question for you…
Do you resent having black in you? I am not trying to be mean…I am only asking because from your posts it really sounds like it.
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Good question, Michelle.
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>@chris t: she?
I am new to the site and was looking at the masthead picture. I take it now that the author is a male, then I stand corrected.
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There is something I wanted to share, I know some may think this is off topic, but I have heard so many comments about how self hatred and loathing has affected people that are being oppressed. I know some of you may think this is kind of weird…but it goes along with what some of you said about inner healing. And please don’t think I am putting blame on you as individuals…I am fully aware and believe that white racism is the root cause. There is a documentary out called “The Secret” it is a method of thinking that Successful white men have been using for years to succeed and have been trying to keep it a secret from everyone else and only share it with the “elite”. It deals with the laws of attraction…you will draw to you what is in your thoughts….ie. if you think negative thoughts you will only attract negativity. If you think positive thoughts you attract positiveness. There is a method of using a board (poster, wood, whatever) to put your goals and dreams on. And it tells you how to manifest positive results through positive thinking. Just wanted to share…thought it might help someone.
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@Brothawolf
Thank you 🙂
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Michelle- I’m afraid that’s not much of a secret, though it has been dressed up as one. The subconscious is a very powerful force that can process certain information faster than the conscious mind. If you think positive thoughts, you tend to do things like walk upright, smile, make friendly eye contact — your unconscious behavior supports your goals and are aligned with your intentions. The reverse is true as well. But let me say this- it’s tough when in your mind, you know the cruel reality, to then convince yourself to be happy. But negativity can be self-defeating so as hard as it is, I suppose the thing to do is to try.
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@Chris T
I know the thought process is not much of a secret…and I am fully aware that people know about the concept, but to me, it goes along with the Racist white man attitude that try to keep people oppressed and can prevent them from succeeding. It is very hard to keep positive about things especially if you are always at the receiving end of the racism, just thought it might help someone.
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@Duck,
And are these shortcomings you feel Abagond skirts natural and inherent to being black, or are those shortcomings imposed upon those who are black? ‘Cause it’s one or the other, either these shortcomings are natural and inherent to the state of being black, or they are constructs that someone else has put on the shoulders of blacks, whether intentional or not.
When the statement is made, “you can’t blame everything on racism,” it carries the assumption that racism itself is no big deal, just a trifle really, that has negligible impact on a society. That is, it’s something to “get over” rather than something to confront and address. At the end of the day, after an honest assessment of the situation, I think you’ll find that the “shortcomings” you have in mind – whatever they may be – are almost invariably going to be rooted in five centuries of racism.
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@ Duck
You should read BLACK LIKE ME by John Howard Griffin. Only an idiot would continue to say the things you say after reading a research/documentary such as this book.
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@duckduckgoofs,
Whites are not uniquely guilty but the present system (not the only one that exists) and all of its evils are, in effect, apportionable today’s European Americans and their ancestry. How else can you explain the systemic advantages that whites receive on behalf of their racial affiliation (e.g. innocent until proven guilty; perceived as the standards of normalcy, intelligence and beauty by the majority of whites and by the media).
Just because you don’t like this truth, duckduckgoofs, doesn’t change the fact that it governs the lives of hundreds of millions of people in the USA today. This system, this world we live in, is tricked up by colonialism and rules that governed it from 1600 – 1960s – and the economic legacy it has left thereafter.
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@ Abagond
For fear that you’ll ban me, I won’t say a word on this post.
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@main post
“ ‘Whites are not uniquely evil!’ is a common straw man argument that White American commenters on this blog bring up. Even though I have never said otherwise.”
Yeah, you have never said whites are uniquely evil, you only implied it multiple times. Huge difference!
How many times have you said that there is a unique factor connected to white people that in some way corrupts their minds? You know, the undefined thing you call “something else”.
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eco,
You said, “Yeah, you have never said whites are uniquely evil, you only implied it multiple times. Huge difference!”
Okay. Name some examples, please.
You continued, “How many times have you said that there is a unique factor connected to white people that in some way corrupts their minds? You know, the undefined thing you call ‘something else’.”
I give up. How many? And where was this said?
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@chulanowa
“When the statement is made, “you can’t blame everything on racism,” it carries the assumption that racism itself is no big deal, just a trifle really, that has negligible impact on a society. ***That is, it’s something to “get over” rather than something to confront and address.*** At the end of the day, after an honest assessment of the situation, I think you’ll find that the “shortcomings” you have in mind – whatever they may be – are almost invariably going to be rooted in five centuries of racism.”
***I believe it is both. On an individual level, something to get over, while on an institutional and structural level, something to confront and address.
When you are striving to be your best on both an individual level and for the sake of your family, friends, loved ones and so on, you have to self-analyze, be self-critical and then positively act on enhancing your strengths and improving your shortcomings. You may be an individual whose esteem and self-perception may have been damaged by racism.
That said, you have to get over it and get up to embrace the opportunities that life puts in your way…and there are opportunities for ALL of us, we just have to be awake and clear-headed enough to see it. The struggle for opportunity is a collective one, but the pursuit and acquisition of that opportunity is an individual one – no one can walk through the “door of opportunity” but you. No one can make you or force you through that metaphorical door.
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@ brothawolf
You’ve demonstrated what I’ve always thought and said: blaming whites for anything is a cardinal sin.
I’m sure they don’t like being scapegoated. Do you? I’ll bet if you called them motherf***ers they’d object to that, too. Probably not michelle, br or jt, though. They’d probably say something like, “Hmmm. That’s a complex issue but I can see where you’re coming from.”
>
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Chris T
RE: your comment in which Rudolf wasn’t allowed to play in any reindeer games. In spite of my joking, I really do sympathize with you. Its tough for most people to feel like an outsider. That was a tough break for you. It sounds like you’ve come to grips with it though. Which is a good thing. Some people get teased or excluded as children and never let it go. It ends up ruining their whole life.
>
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@ Michelle
Perhaps you should be asking yourself those questions.
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Duck,
Scapegoating is not the same as placing blame where it lies, and it sure isn’t the same as personal responsibility or accountability. They are not the same.
No one – here at least – is scapegoating white people. However, we are placing the blame in the system of lies and oppression on behalf of white men, for white men and maintained mostly by white men (and women). This is not the same as convicting an entire group, only certain members who willingly or otherwise take part in this travesty.
It IS a complex issue, but people like JT, B.R., and Michelle aren’t running away from it. They face it, understood it, and responded accordingly because they know the simple truth that this blog was not the kind to hide the issue no matter how painful it may seem.
Finally, why not answer Michelle her questions? She’s not trying to call you out, but is wondering where you are coming from, as do I. And you seem to be pretty defensive over a question which could indicate that it touched a nerve. Again, not making fun, but just wondering.
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@ bro
The first part of your comment is simply your own word trying to justify your own belief. The second part of your comment is merely you stroking jt, br and michelle because they support your beliefs. And the third part of your comment demonstrates a preoccupation with what I am. If you’ll notice, you guys bring it up a lot more than I do. Do you really think I’m going to give you personal information to attack me with? Think again.
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Duck,
You said, “The first part of your comment is simply your own word trying to justify your own belief. And the third part of your comment demonstrates a preoccupation with what I am. If you’ll notice, you guys bring it up a lot more than I do. Do you really think I’m going to give you personal information to attack me with? Think again.”
If that’s how you see it. The fact is that I’m speaking from my point of view. It shouldn’t be any less important to the conversation.
Then, you said “The second part of your comment is merely you stroking jt, br and michelle because they support your beliefs.”
Okay. I don’t know what you mean by stroking, but it was their choice whether they want to agree with the post (or with me) or not. And if they do support my beliefs, what’s the issue, especially when those who disagree support each other or have different opinions and views altogether?
People can agree to disagree if they want to, but when it comes to conversations about race and racism, civility must be present if all participants are willing to cooperate. In other words if some disagree, that doesn’t make it any less important to the forum.
The problem is that it’s the usual statements that we’ve heard before that are mostly based on fiction and fear and not fact. How can one be taken seriously if one relies on half-truths and lies?
Next, you went on, “And the third part of your comment demonstrates a preoccupation with what I am. If you’ll notice, you guys bring it up a lot more than I do. Do you really think I’m going to give you personal information to attack me with? Think again.”
Duck, we were just wondering what’s going on. That’s all. And I think this is the first time I’ve seen it where someone asks a sound question. Frankly, I’m just curious. Not focused. If you choose not to answer, fine. You don’t have to get bent out of shape over it. Just tell us that it’s none of our business.
However, you should know that while you’re typing away in this forum, you should expect replies which will include questions. If you don’t want it to happen, all I can say is that you don’t type anymore. It’s simple.
I was just observing because you seemed agitated over the question for some reason. That’s all. And, why would you think we would use it to attack you? That sounds like another issue altogether. But, have you done the same to any of us whenever we disclosed our experiences with racism?
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The fact is that I’m speaking from my point of view.
Understood. I’m simply saying that claiming its true doesn’t make it true even if one believes it.
Okay. I don’t know what you mean by stroking, but it was their choice whether they want to agree with the post
It relates to a point I made in an earlier post in which Abagond linked “5 rules”. Specifically, it struck me as the reverse of rule #3 dealing with “uncle toms”.
The problem is that it’s the usual statements that we’ve heard before that are mostly based on fiction and fear and not fact. How can one be taken seriously if one relies on half-truths and lies?
That you’ve heard them before makes them invalid? That you claim they’re lies makes them lies? I also hear the same arguments from some of you and I think they’re lies. Sometimes, I’m undecided about whether some of you even believe what you’re saying sometimes.
Frankly, I’m just curious. Not focused. If you choose not to answer, fine. You don’t have to get bent out of shape over it. Just tell us that it’s none of our business.
I understand some people are simply curious. But undersand that others would attack me personally. Its my choice how much I reveal. I’m not trying to be ugly about it.
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@ Duck
1. Black shortcomings:
Black shortcomings are discussed AT length on this blog by both whites and blacks. Some commenters seem to come here ONLY to discuss black shortcomings – but when you bring up white shortcomings they try to derail.
2. Broken Records:
The reason I want to create a Broken Records department is not to shut people up or avoid discussion but to keep those sort of arguments in one place instead of getting rehashed over and over again on posts where they are pretty much a derailment.
3. Parodies:
As to parodies, some things just cry out to be parodied. Because they are that laughable and brainless. Like that blacks are not fully human or are emotional thinkers anymore than anyone else. If you disagree, then you can do so in the comments of said parodies. That simple.
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Duck or anyone else is not under any obligation to give out personal information, particularly since it can be used to ad hom them later.
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@ Eco
Sorry, but you will have to give an example. I know that I personally do not believe that whites are uniquely evil, so it seems like it is being READ INTO what I write. I doubt I am expressing myself badly since black commenters rarely if ever misread me that way.
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Duckgoofs, I agree with Brothawolf because he is making better points than you are. Frankly, I dont understand why any American cant see how enourmous the racism and discrimination against black Ameicans has been and still is.
How come any American cant see the fact that only a few decades ago , black Americans were seperated from whites in things like baseball and other sports, and horrid jim crow laws?
That realters coluded with government officials to create white flight in northern urban cities, and that is how these northern urban ghettos were created
And year after year, we can read another article in the New York Times how minority schools are vastly unequal in terms of teachers and learning facilities, and, minorities suffer from more unemployment
These are realities that seem to elude you , Duckgoofs
No problem , Duckgoofs , of not going into your personal life, but, why are you just mysteriously throwing it out here at us, like a misty ffog of an incident, or some referance to “a mixture” you are aluding to ? You keep refferring to it over and over….just dont write about it anymore , and no one will ask
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Abagond:
Yes, black people are evil too. “Black Devils” have and continue to wreak havoc in our race. Whites who have devious motives in relation to black people, expedite the process, as it relates to supporting self-hating black people. Think about it black people? Most black people on this planet are done-in by other black people, usually blackmen. We spend a lot of time yapping about the whiteman, when in reality, the blackman is doing a lion’s share of the killing today. Racist whites love crab-a** blackmen because they do their dirty work for them. The dopeboy on the corner, the gang-banger, sista-hater, are all supported by the powers-that-be on this planet. We’re fighting against two groups of haters, and we wonder why we deal with so much ish?
Tyrone
MindScape
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@Duck
Touche 🙂 I have questioned myself numerous times throughout my life…which is why I was able to pick up on it. I am not saying that you do…it is just that it sounds like it. I personally have had numerous problems with my race because of the isolation I feel. I am not saying I don’t want to be white…but many times my life has been difficult being white among my own race. It has also been difficult being white among POC. So yes I have asked myself many times…but the one thing that I have always come back to is that I can’t change my race…no matter how many times I go to the tanning bed! And I have found that, even if it was possible, changing my skin color would not take away from my psychological issues. All I can do is be myself and work on my issues and continue to grow. I don’t expect people to like me anymore…I have found that it is irrational to expect anyone to like me for me and to put so much focus on it. I also don’t expect you talk about your personal life. I may ask questions but the most important thing is for you to be true to yourself…not that you reply to me.
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@duck
Just… duck, what is it about you that makes you think your behavior is at all acceptable? All of your comments seem to be about how racism makes you feel, how you think it’s all lies designed to serve some purpose you never adequately explain, how you know that all the real racists are those blacks who do nothing but mistreat the poor white folk. and how people keep attacking you on a personal level (which I have yet to see anyone actually do). I’m still so very, very unlearned about the true working of racism, but even I have a better grip on it than that. I’ll let you in on a little secret, too; it’s called not making racism all about you and your feelings. Try, instead, actually listening to what those who suffer from racism have to say and maybe, just maybe, assuming that they know what they’re talking about, and perhaps even that they know more about white racism and it’s effects than you do. You’ll find that people may actually no longer take issue with you that way, and that they aren’t all out to hurt you personally.
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“Sorry, but you will have to give an example. I know that I personally do not believe that whites are uniquely evil, so it seems like it is being READ INTO what I write. I doubt I am expressing myself badly since black commenters rarely if ever misread me that way.”
You’re not though, but some commentors do infact twist the original posts you write and blame whites.
That’s one of the main reasons I stopped coming here (and still plan to stop) because your commentors are the ones who seem hellbent on anyone not white hating whites. For you, it’s understandable, but for some people who are younger coming here and hearing certain people go off as if whites are to blame for everyones problems in the world? What does that help? Not a damn thing, it makes it worse.
“The power of committing acts of terrorism against people and nations of color (i.e. slavery, geniocide of native americans, violent overthrown of progressive/non-algined governments and leaders, theft of other people’s labor and natural resources including oil) and calling it ANYTHING BUT what it is”
I posted I was against this viewpoint as yes whites participated in, but it was not and is not strictly a white circumstance, yet “You are masking a characteristically white trait as a universal human characteristic which I think is very deceptive of you.”
Again, I know whites have commited some atrocities not on the scale of others but at the same damn time anyone else can do this to.
You’ve even commented before stating:
““Everyone does it”, even if true, does not make it right. A life is a life is a life.”
and
“We are ALL God’s children regardless of our past sins, despite our skin colour and all the rest. But MANY “good” Christian white people have FORGOTTEN that and think you can measure a man’s worth – and they act accordingly. That is just PLAIN FUCKING WRONG. It leads to SICK and EVIL behaviour.”
So why is it that when I point out the simple fact that this situation is getting out of hand because the term racist and racism are being thrown around without regard to anyone that I’m somehow part of the problem to some of the commentors Abagond? Why is it others are excused from the same acts that whites participate in because they’re not white? I’ve seen brown folks who are racist to whites/non-whites I’ve seen blacks who are racist to whites/non-whites I’ve seen asians who are racist to whites/non-whites but at the end of the day the racism they show is excused and whites are put on the hypocritical pedistal of moral related to racism?
You never hear someone say “Look at that asian being racist, you must not be like them” “Look at that black fellow being racist, don’t be like them” No, it’s always look at how this white person is acting, they MUST be racist, and we must not be like them. Kinda reminds me of the hypocrisy when it relates to crime coverage, as it’s always blacks being shown as the perpatrators and considered “scum” whereas whites are just seen (as someone I forget who mentioned) “well they were very stressed and snapped they would never do something like this”.
Difference is one is seen as a good example to show to the world while the other is deemed wrong and unjust … take a gander as to which ones which.
That’s all, and I’m done. Keep writing what you believe in Abagond but do not sit by and let certain commentors twist YOUR words to fit their views about whites. Some commentors who happen to be white or non-white who disagree with your topics and posts about them should be dealt in the way you want them to understand it, not go along and have the commentors (some who are bias and I really don’t care WHAT they say) say it for you, you know better than to have someone use you as a mouthpiece for their own BS.
ANNNNNND that’s all folks. If any commentor wants to post regarding this, be my guest. I won’t be back to read it nor will I personally give a rats behind either.
Keep on it Abagond, and might I add the website headliner banner is very powerful, it make me focus on the words and think to myself (why do we stereotype people this way, ways in which tends to harm them while being irreparable.
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@Yawn and Everyone that this pertains too…you know who you are!
Ugh! Seriously? I don’t hate whites…but I do condemn racist whites! How can you not see that racist whites are what is being discussed? How can you take offense to something that does not pertain to you? Unless…maybe…it does? How can you tell someone they are wrong for expressing feelings that are based off of their own personal experiences?
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@Yawn
Great, another person who hears the word “white” and thinks that everyone is saying “ZOMG ALL WHITES ARE DEVIL SPAWN!!!1!11!” I do not hate all white people (I myself am white, it would be rather crazy and hypocritical for me do so), and I don’t think anyone else here does either. I’m not going to bother discussing why you’re wrong here, because Michelle has already done a good job of that and I’m sure others can say it far more eloquently than I can, but I just want you to understand that condemning white racism =/= hating white people.
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“The inventor of their heaven empties into it all the nations of the earth, in one common jumble. All are on an equality absolute, no one of them ranking another; they have to be “brothers”; they have to mix together, pray together, harp together, hosannah together–whites, (blacks), Jews, everybody–there’s no distinction. Here in the earth all nations hate each other, and every one of them hates the Jew. Yet every pious person adores that heaven and wants to get into it. He really does. And when he is in a holy rapture he thinks he thinks that if he were only there he would take all the populace to his heart, and hug, and hug, and hug!”
– Mark Twain
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@Joshua
I like your quote. Although something stuck out to me that is a little discerning…your use of parenthesis “(blacks)” as if you were pointing the finger. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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It’s amazing, isn’t it?
The conditioning must be so powerful that mentioning the word “white” in regards to crime, violence, etc. is staggering. It’s like whites are good, virtuous, and perfect no matter what they do. Likewise, blacks are bad, evil, stupid, etc. no matter what they (we) do. In the end that’s what certain people want so bad.
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No one, to my knowledge, has ever said that white people are evil in any way. I know I haven’t because I don’t think so. What I DO think is that white supremacy, white privilege, and whiteness itself is not only destructive to PoC in many ways, but it is just as destructive to white people as well.
That truth is not meant to harm whites, but to free them from their own creation. Isn’t it a sign of love to tell the truth no matter how much it hurts? So, how is it considered anti-white hatred if it’s about the truth of white racism?
(I know the answer by the way.)
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@Brothawolf
How many times and different ways does it have to be explained before people get it?
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White people are evil, but Abagond makes it clear – they are not ‘uniquely’ evil.
Part of what it means to be white is to benefit from a system rooted in evil.
I think we need to remind ourselves that:
One is not born white, one becomes white. Same as, one is not born African American, Asian American, Latino/as American, American Indian etc, one BECOMES those things living under white supremacy.
So to me, white people are evil.
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@Ann
I find your post very interesting…I was wondering if you would clarify you are referring to the term “white” as opposed to Caucasian? Or do both of those terms qualify as “evil” to you?
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Reading some of these comments are exhausting. Sometimes I can only take so much of the ignorance. I am finding that I have to take this blog in small doses lately, because being around such wasted brain matter is draining to me. How many times does it have to be repeated that racist whites is the topic here, not all whites? It makes me wonder what kind of character one has to rabidly defend racist whites as if everyone with pale skin is being condemned in this blog. It’s disgusting and you look like an idiot to the people with an adequate amount of reading comprehension skills. That’s all….
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Michelle,
I can’t answer that question, but it looks like that’s what “they” want us to hate so they have a reason to hate us. It’s sad really.
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@ Yawn
1. I do not police the thoughts of commenters. As long as they can express themselves in a somewhat civil manner I let them have their say.
2. Just because I do not openly disagree with someone that does not mean I secretly agree with them. Since I try to express myself as clearly as I can in the post, I assume that the intelligent reader can tell who I agree with or disagree with and by how much.
My philosophy is that more progress can be made on race if people can openly and honestly talk about it than can be made by singing “Kumbaya” and kissing up to white people. Trying to control how people think and feel is a form of abuse and is part of how racism works in America.
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These two explain what I’ve always known but abgond is the first to articulate it.
I constantly write notes to myself to help me understand the things I go through.
and in these notes are constant and repeated references to “whites”.
This post just like this blog and others helps me to comprehend why how.
And the great thing is niether abgond nor brotherwolf nor any of the numerous posters and commenters knows me.
They all are doing the same thing independently – anaylzing thier experiences to make sense of them.
And winding up reaching many of the same conculsions.
And as for the “whites” who want to complain and deny (not all, as though still rare every now and again honorable and decent “whites” do let thier voices be heard)
Fuck you.
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@brothawolf
“Okay. Name some examples, please.”
I’ve discussed “something else” with Abagond at least three times on different occasions (under different posts). He brings up the concept of “something else” relatively regularly.
This is a good place to start:
because it sums up most of Abagond’s points/views.
@Abagond
“Sorry, but you will have to give an example. I know that I personally do not believe that whites are uniquely evil, so it seems like it is being READ INTO what I write. I doubt I am expressing myself badly since black commenters rarely if ever misread me that way.”
To be fair I have to point out that you do seem to be somewhat between two stances:
– all races share one human nature
– whites are uniquely, unnaturally evil
I think that your use of the term “something else” and your belief in its existence undeniably puts you closer to the “whites are uniquely, unnaturally evil” viewpoint.
Look at that “hearts of white people, part II” post I’ve linked. I think the most important points you’ve made are that:
“white people are born with the same hearts as black people”
and
“guns, germs and steel – and geography – are what account for the broad ups and downs of history, not race or even culture. But this normalizes White American racism. It sees it as natural, as an ordinary part of human nature. (…) There is something else at work.”
I think these statement contradict each other.
Let’s assume “something else” exists, because you seem to believe in it stronger than you believe that all races share one human nature. What are the possible scenarios?
a) “something else” is a unique… hmm… let’s say: “white thing”, and white people’s nature is responsible for its existence, but human nature isn’t. That means the nature of white people is uniquely flawed, corrupt.
b) “something else” is NOT a unique “white thing”. Then it’s human nature that created it and white racism is natural.
c) “something else” is a unique “white thing”, but it wasn’t created by white people’s nature. So, where did it come from? God? Satan? Aliens? This scenario is irrational.
I can’t think of any other possibilities/scenarios.
Whenever you are bringing up “something else” as a special factor that influences white people and simultaneously you are rejecting the idea that human nature is responsible for its existence the implications are clear – the nature of white people is uniquely corrupt in a way that ultimately makes them evil.
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Well, that “something else” could just be how the white man put together the idea that there are “races”, and , some races were inferior to other races, therefor justifying a “chatel slavery” mentality.How about that something else was the way the western white man used his religion as an excuse to go about conquering people all over the world . That something else could be how the western white man focused his mind on inventing weapons of destruction to go out and conquer
Im not saying the white man is the only civilisation that went out and conquered and took slaves and raped and destroyed in its path.
But, its the way he did it, and, how we are finding out that there are very valuable things that the white man tried to destroy in other civilisations , that the white man could use in his life , like meditation, yoga , being at one with the envirnment.
And, the way the white man did it, has long lasting concequences in the wake of where he conquereed , like the Americas, where the white man destroyed the civilisation there and brought in chatel slavery from Africa, and how that effects the dynamic of life in all those places in the Americas that black African slaves were brought.
I think yoiu can isolate that aspect and look at it and understand the bad and the good (for sure medicines that cure diseases is a good thing, but not the hyper medical industrial complex ) . Then we can isolate other civilisations and look at what they did , and what they contributed and destroyed.
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@B.R.
“Well, that ‘something else’ could just be how the white man put together the idea that there are “races”, and , some races were inferior to other races, therefor justifying a “chatel slavery” mentality.”
Where did “something else” come from? Is it human nature to do/develop “something else” in certain conditions? Abagond apparently thinks (if I understand him correctly) that it’s not simply human. That it’s something unique to white people and that implies white people are uniquely corrupt and evil.
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You cannot account for the acts of White Americans based simply on technology + human nature, even if you see “tribalism” as part of that human nature. There is “something else” in addition to all that. At a GUESS I would say it has to do with how whites bring up their children, something that has roots in Puritan ideas of sin and penance.
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White Americans are not the MOST evil but are AMONG the MOST evil. They got company, but not to the degree where you could write off their actions as mere human nature and circumstance (better weapons, etc).
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Nice dodge! You could at least admit you are avoiding my questions.
Where did “something else” come from? Is it human nature to do/develop “something else” in certain conditions?
If you want to blame it on “puritan ideas of sin and penance” then where did they come from? Are they a consequence of human nature? The nature of white people? Jesus?
Are the puritan ideas a uniquely white thing? Are they unnatural?
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@brothawolf
thank you for replying…I agree. I asked that question of ann because what she said made me think that the term “white” by her personal definition is connected to the white supremacy notions and I was curious as to if I should not refer to myself as “white” anymore because it is linked to so much that goes against what I believe as an individual. So I thought maybe I should refer to myself as Caucasian as a more appropriate label that supports my beliefs. So I was curious as to her stance on the term “Caucasian”. I know that “whites” is not meant to mean all whites. I have felt that from the start of reading abagond’s site and still maintain that. But her post as an individual just made me question a few things. I wish other people would get off of their high horse and realize that not everything is about them…it reminds me of this song…
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@eco
Are you defending white racism? Are you racist against any race? I am only asking because the more you comment…the more it sounds as though you are. I don’t understand why you keep pointing fingers and not admitting that there is an overwhelming population of white racists…Is there a possibility that you are and you just don’t see it because you are not really understanding what POC see as hurtful and racist? This blog site very informative and if you can find it in yourself you not get defensive about something that does not apply to you…then you can learn so much about yourself and racism…as I have.
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I am tired of arguments that are based off of philosophy. Human nature is a philosophical term that has been debated over the years as what it means and in most cases are based off of assumptions…so to argue about human nature is irrational at best.
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Folks, it’s really simple! But the powers would rather have us see it as overwhelmingly complex and complicated.
If white supremacy/racism is rooted in evil then it makes sense that WHITENESS is utterly demonic. Coz it’s sure as hell ain’t a heavenly nirvana system for the majority of people on the planet!! There’s not one good thing that WHITENESS has brought to the human race.
What makes THIS EVIL unique among white people is that most/many whites will not and cannot see the depth of harm and pain it causes themselves AND others… even after HUNDREDS of years — because to do so will cause them to witness AND recognize their “privilege” for the “EVIL” it is. So they remain rooted in their delusion.
Whiteness, the act of being white – is a wicked sham that originated with a false idea of lighter skin color making some pale people superior over others. It’s sort of like saying, consciously or unconsciously, “Hey world, look at me. By virtue of my skin color I’m much closer to God than these other people! And, my reason for mistreating and oppressing others – and believing I am more capable is because I’m BETTER than them – “better” being the essence of the WHITE lie. The greatest lie ever told.
Only whites can be racists. They invented racism – they benefit from it, and they maintain it/hold on to it/refuse to give it up – refine it/keep it going – for their advantages and privileges.
To say that anyone other than whites can be racists is like saying that non-whites BENEFIT and derive privileges from living a racist system that places them beneath whites. That’s ludicrous and insane in my book.
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This is a great post! I totally agree 100%!
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Michelle, you are quite right. First, there’s no such thing as a “white race”, the term Caucasian is more appropriate. Apart from Dracula, did anyone ever see a white person? I mean a snow-white person? I don’t think so. Second, Caucasians are in denial. It will snow in Hell before Caucasians ever admit(even if historical records clearly prove it) that no other race on Earth has commited more genocides and useless acts of cruelty than Caucasians. What you call western civilization(usa, australia, france, germany, italy, portugal,swiss, england, belgium, netherland) is the result of the old rebellion against God. It’s a civilization based upon illusion, lies, deceits, and murders. Two words could apply to most caucasians: proud and arrogant; just like Lucifer their forefather. Caucasians would not stop at anything to protect their Ego. They would lie, deceive, kill, even deny God’s existence, just tofeel like they are the masterrace; But the Reaping is coming. The above-mentionned coutries are really really really f*****d-up. Tic tac, tic tac, tic tac.
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I agree , Matari, white people invented racism and “whiteness” , they need to take responsibility for that and work on getting past that…
I cant call any black American racist if he hates white people for the racist society that he is in…that person is defending themselves…it is a position of defence. That person may be biased, but, not racist if they are defending themselves to survive in a racist system
That doesnt mean hating white people is the only and best way to deal with that situation. Any black American has the right to deal with racist American society how they see fit….
I dont see what is so hard to understand about this
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@ Abagond
Unfortunately, I would have to agree with the logic of what Eco is arguing here. And to be honest if you want to maintain an irrational biblical view in a simplistic concept like “Evil” then you will inevitably attract more criticism like this.
This definition of “Evil” is akin to a bottomless pit, with the same name, in which everything we don’t accept, don’t understand or can’t or refuse to comprehend is thrown in. Its just that – Its “EVIL”!
Therefore to say ANYONE is “Evil”, or uniquely “Evil”, is neither here nor there – it doesn’t matter! – because in some way they are still “Evil”! This is the same logic or reasoning used to determine who is or who isn’t racist or a lot more less racist. It doesn’t matter. if they are racist they are racist!
Arguing about the degree to which someone is or isn’t then becomes a subjective one. An personal opinion. So who’s view should we choose?
As I have already stated many times on this blog before. If “Evil” or racism is a bug then that mean we can all (THAT MEANS EVERYONE) catch it. But if it is not then that means only those people who are, in some way, innately “Evil” or racist can. Which begins to sound like a tautology.(- only bachelors can be single people)
So we are left with same question what makes these people (white, Black or whatever…) uniquely “Evil” or not ?
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@Michelle
I’m not defending white racism. There is a difference between saying that a lot of white people do evil things and saying that whites are uniquely evil. The first statement is about the behavior of a group of people and the other is about their nature, their humanity. I see it as something comparable with statements like: “black people are inherently violent”.
I use this definition of racism:
“the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races”.
I have never denied that according to it I am racist. I do semiconsciously believe in some racial stereotypes, so it’s obvious to me – I am racist. I do think a lot of people around the world, if not almost all, believe in some stereotypes or see people as groups instead of individuals and that means they are racist too. Obviously not all racist people are equally harmful. White racists are easily the most powerful ones and thus they are the most dangerous kind.
I don’t like the phrase “human nature” either. Generally, I try to avoid using the word “natural”. I consciously chose to use Abagond’s terminology to be able to discuss this “whites are (not) uniquely evil” topic with him.
So, is everything clear now?
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Kwamla, just to clarify what I said with your comment , I do think all people , men and women , everywhere, have the capacity for evil
I think a biased person has as much potetial for evil as a racist person
I just feel that black Americans, born into a racist society , are defending themselves from that racism. In my opinion, they may become biased or bigoted in the process , but, for me, as a white person, who knows white people invented and implemented racism, and see it manifested in American society ( and Brazilian society, and I cant say any other place since I dont live there and cant really speak to it) , I just see the black American responce ( in its wide spectrum of opinions and concepts) as defence , and , that doesnt mean that if the responce is biased and bigoted , it cant become something evil…it totaly depends on the individual…which , by the way, is how I judge a persons reaction..by the individual…I dont listen to one person’s opinion or defence and think that is how everyone feels
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@eco
Challenging is not listening learning and discussing…it is ego based philosophy that never ends in mutual understanding and acceptance.
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I think I will just call myself “other” or maybe “human”
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From what I am gathering…classifications were designed with the intent on segregating and enabling oppressive behavior that is targeted at people that others feel are inferior based off of how they look, their culture and their religion.
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My husband and I have often talked about moving out of the country…I am beginning to think we better start planning soon.
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@Michelle
“Challenging is not listing, listening learning and discussing…it is ego based philosophy that never ends in mutual understanding and acceptance.”
How is challenging different from discussing?
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Well Kwamla’s comment is very academic. It might be true but I don’t know how it helps us understand reality as we experience it.
I tend to agree with abagond here,
———————————————————
“You cannot account for the acts of White Americans based simply on technology + human nature, even if you see “tribalism” as part of that human nature. There is “something else” in addition to all that. At a GUESS I would say it has to do with how whites bring up their children, something that has roots in Puritan ideas of sin and penance.”
———————————————————-
I agree that there is something in “whiteness” as we know it today that specifically accounts for how we experience it in reality as non-whites(you know, that overwhelming system of oppression devoid of warmth). I don’t think it is because of “human nature” + “technology” as abagond says, there is something else there…
I am sorry if this is not what white people want to hear, but it is how, at least me personally have experienced the system of whiteness. White people are unique in that case.
Now I don’t know what is the cause of this “other” thing. I don’t totally agree with abagond’s assessment of “sin and penance”.
I think Ann got closer,
———————————————————–
“One is not born white, one becomes white. Same as, one is not born African American, Asian American, Latino/as American, American Indian etc, one BECOMES those things living under white supremacy.”
————————————————————
They are made into it and it is more than “religious” but incorporates religion, science, philosophy, race etc that they come into contact with. Look at it this way, chinese invented gun powder, whites used it to kill. Chinese invented Paper, whites used it to create a system of segregation between literate/illiterate etc. Pretty much whatever they’ve come into contact with, they’ve turned it into a tool of Power “over” others. That’s the thing, they have this drive for power “over” others, that the majority “non-white” peoples of this world don’t have and you can see it throughout history. Race is just another thing that they use for power over others.
Whatever has caused this relentless drive is beyond me, but it sure ain’t “human nature” or technology”.
They are not only waging this war against other people they are also waging it against mother nature herself. In the philosophies of other people, they try and at least find a way to maintain balance between themselves and nature, nature is sacred(native americans traditional views, african traditional views, eastern people’s in their philosophies etc), but to white people, nature is an obstacle to absolute power.
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@Michelle
I replaced the n-word in the quote.
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@wilson
I wanted to thank you for your response to my looooong post 🙂 I agree with your thoughts and I am learning so much everyday. It is a mixture of emotions that I experience and sometimes that influences how I post. I try very hard to separate emotions and try to respond rationally…but sometimes I see that I have come across as ignorant at times. I hope that if I ever say something that is offensive that it is pointed out to me so that I can learn from it and not continue doing it. I truly appreciate everyone on here that has not made fun of me and is respectful in replies to me. This is the only site that I have not been rejected or mocked and that means so much to me. I think this is the first time in my life that I feel accepted for who I am and what my beliefs are and I could never even attempt to express how much that means to me. Sorry going emotional again. Thank you again for your kindness. 🙂
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A point about Technology;
Technology just like art represents the “makers” state of mind, how they view the world.
As many White People like to inform us on this blog, white people are responsible for the vast majority of technology that we use. Thus we can glean there world-view from their technology. No one can argue against some basic facts of all the modern technology we have:
Despite technology making our lives more comfortable, increasing connectivity between different people, at least in terms of distance, it
a) Leads to biological degredation i.e. food is less natural, radiation from tech-devices, toxicity from waste etc.
b) Leads to potential ecological disasters(fukushima for example).
So from there technology, we see that yes we do get some comforts but also the flip-side is that we are living in a ticking timebmb.
My point is technology is not “universal”, not as we know it, a different “mindset” will lead to a different form of technology that will reflect that particular mindset.
So I think the technology we have nowadays is a very good metaphor for what whiteness is all about.
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Some cultured did try to find a balance with nature, but the “eastern peoples” weren’t among those who actually lived such a philosophy any more than whites, and much worse than whites at this point. Some Africans did. Some American aboriginals did. The Australian aboriginals seem to be the most pacifistic/spiritual/naturalistic of the earth’s historic populations.
The fact is that a lot of what Europeans are is attributable to where they lived. Europe was/is a much harsher area for living than sub-Saharan Africa in general, until nature was “tamed”. Nomadic living as in Africa or the Americas was very difficult to maintain beyond a very few people. The presence of so much water required that the technology to become sea-faring was required for trade, and unlike other places required that it be maintained and advanced. This pulled along technology across the board, and allowed the Europeans to colonize other places rather than the other way around. The repeated assaults/invasions by tribal peoples from Asia created a militaristic culture, along with the idea perhaps that such things were normal.
The rest is likely due to a religion which demanded that people multiply and subdue the earth. These people today are called “Republicans” in the US.
Don’t kid yourself that other people around the world are much different, though their historic problems may have been different resulting in a somewhat more relaxed culture in places.
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@Joshua…
So what you are saying is that you were not meaning to point fingers? Okay…I am not sure for your reasoning in quoting someone racist…even though you changed the word. I should have googled the quote before I said I liked it because that was one major element that discerns me. If Someone is going to use a racist term in a quote…in my eyes it wipes out any good intentions. So I personally would never use a quote by a racist person to get my point across…but that is just me. Others may disagree.
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@wilson…
I tried searching for a post that abagond my have done about Technology and African American inventors…but I could not find one. Do you know if he has done any? If not…I wonder if he would be interested in it. I have always tried to teach my kids african american inventions along with other inventors. I am curious to see if I missed any.
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@ Michelle,
Oh, I don’t know what to say… You’re welcome 🙂
Please don’t feel like you have to agree with everything I or anyone says… Also just my own personal view, but don’t discard your emotions, you should always consult them, they are as important as your rational mind…
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I don’t think Mark Twain was racist. He was one of the most advanced thinkers of his day, and you should read other quotes. Read Huckleberry Finn if you haven’t before.
I think he was trying to make a point about what the people he was describing thought – religious racists. There is also a point to be made that the word is a distortion of the Spanish “negro”, a word for “black”, and look how many other such words have entered English. It is in relatively recent times that it has become what it is today.
I wasn’t pointing the fingers at anyone.
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@wilson
lol …I do post on things that I don’t share the same views…but I always try to be respectful…unless they are not. In my opinion it is not right to tell someone they are wrong and be disrespectful about it…even if I don’t agree I try to respect their personal belief and share my personal beliefs and ask questions to try and understand theirs….not to challenge like some people do. It is my opinion that when someone comes in to a discussion with the attitude to challenge…I don’t feel they are really open to understanding…I feel they are just trying to get a point across and don’t really care about your views. It is just so refreshing to see so many people that share a lot of my views. 🙂
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@Joshua
I am not trying to be disrespectful…but It is my opinion that even the most advanced thinkers are not immune to racism. I do respect the fact that you changed the word…In my opinion that showed to you do have concern for others…but I am not too familiar with you because I only found this site recently and I am still reading through replies trying to get a sense of who is racist and don’t care about people’s views on here and who is trying to be sincere and understand. That is why I ask questions…to try and understand…and share my views as well. I will try to freshen up on Huckleberry Finn because it has been years and I am ashamed to admit that I didn’t pay much attention to it because it was an assignment that I had to do a report in school for…so it was something I just tried to rush through and i can’t remember very much.
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eco,
eco,
You said, “Yeah, you have never said whites are uniquely evil, you only implied it multiple times. Huge difference!”
Okay. Name some examples, please.
You continued, “How many times have you said that there is a unique factor connected to white people that in some way corrupts their minds? You know, the undefined thing you call ‘something else’.”
I give up. How many? And where was this said?
Your response to me was, “I’ve discussed “something else” with Abagond at least three times on different occasions (under different posts). He brings up the concept of “something else” relatively regularly.
This is a good place to start:
because it sums up most of Abagond’s points/views.
Okay. That sounds like it’s only one example, and it doesn’t seem to fully imply that whites are uniquely evil.
In any case it sounds like you really are trying to defend the sins and crimes of certain White Americans in the past and present while trying to paint this as an attack against white people.
Then this statement hit me:
“I have never denied that according to it I am racist. I do semiconsciously believe in some racial stereotypes, so it’s obvious to me – I am racist.”
So, let me ask you an important question, are you comfortable with having a racist mindset, or do you really want to let go of it and try to deprogram yourself?
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this is a racist blog, that is why I do not comment anymore. I get afraid of what might happen….
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vanishingpoint,
What could possibly happen to you on this blog?
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Mind Control activated…ZAP
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I dunno, i am torn on this issue.
No one is inherently good or evil simply because of skin color.
Have white people committed depraved acts? Yes. But so have Africans, Asians and so forth.
I do however think that some groups are more aggressive than others.
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@Michelle
There’s no reason to say, “Touche”. That wasn’t a slap. You just seemed to have some past relationships you were struggling with. Its a shame we couldn’t have some long, face to face conversations. I’m pretty good at understanding human nature and helping people come to grips with stuff.
>
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@TheNoun
Would you say most people are nice and easy to get along with? Or that most people are jerks who rub you the wrong way?
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@BR
I’m usually not the one bringing it up or making a big deal over it. I didn’t in this thread. I didn’t in the last thread. Or the last few times it was mentioned. You in particular have asked about it more than once. I have, however, mentioned it a couple of times and I’ll continue to do so as I see fit.
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@ Wilson
“….Well Kwamla’s comment is very academic. It might be true but I don’t know how it helps us understand reality as we experience it…”
I’d be interested to read why you think this so? What did you find specifically academic about my comment?
I’d agree with your assessment of what we consider today to be “modern technology”: “…the technology we have nowadays is a very good metaphor for what whiteness is all about…”
This is basically separated… divorced from nature… or our natural being. Which is why some peoples and cultures have and do consider it to be “Evil” . And by association its creators – European/Western culture – whiteness or white people etc.. But also make the point that it doesn’t have to be this way and indeed many cultures and past civilizations have shown and demonstrated this case. So why has the growth of Western technology developed and taken what can only be considered a (in place of “Evil”) backward step?
Here I also agree there is “something else” missing needed to explain this. However, to break this down as just simply “Evil” tells us, in my opinion, nothing and just closes the door to further exploration.
@ duckduckgoofs
“…I’m pretty good at understanding human nature and helping people come to grips with stuff…”
From extensive reading of your past comments and contributions on this blog – I sincerely doubt this!
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@ Kwamla,
Well I am re-reading it now and I think I might have jumped the gun. I read your response as especially precise like how an academic scholar might write his/her view. I had the impression that sometimes, such writings might read well on paper but are not that useful in real life and decided to project this onto what you wrote.
I thought that it concentrated to much on defining the term “Evil” since I personally read “Evil” to mean “those acts that cause others harm”.
That’s just how I saw it… I agree that “Evil” can be a bug for the most part. Living around people or in a culture that always causes other people harm can lead us to do the same as individuals.
Uhmm, anyways, I’d say just ignore that part about being academic…
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Yes I agree… It doesn’t lead to a better understanding of why the culture as a whole has this relentless drive towards this end or where this comes from. As Dr Ani in Yurugu says, it is consistent.
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@brothawolf
Honestly, I’m too lazy to look for other examples. I just don’t see what that would change. I’ve pointed out and discussed the concept of “something else” with Abagond a few times before. I wasn’t intending to have this conversation with anyone else.
If you believe I am wrong about the implications of Abagond’s statements please point out the error(s) in my reasoning.
I’m not trying to paint it as an attack against white people. I do not have to. It is an attack against white people. I’m not defending nor justifying their actions. The implication of Abagond’s statements is that white people are uniquely evil. That is comparable with implying that black people are uniquely prone to violence. This is not about the actions of a group of people. It’s about their nature, their humanity.
Also, in Abagond’s particular case believing that people share one human nature and at the same time white people are corrupted by a factor unique to them, is simply hypocritical. These statements contradict each other on a very basic level. If the factor is unique to white people, is something only they can do/develop, then the human nature can’t be universal. If it is universal then there are no unique factors.
First of all, I think I remember some of your other comments and I’m 90% sure you are using a different definition of racism, so when we use that word we mean different things.
Now, what exactly does it mean to “deprogram” a person?
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@ Wilson
Thanks for your honesty and insight. I do try to write as clear and precise as possible in my comments.
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Fascinating points by Kwamla and Wilson at trying to define this “something else”…Yes, we are facing a tremendous crossroads about technology…there is the good part, like, Im happy to have gotten my flu shots for the year, im happy to use baby wipes,and a number of other great things out there that technology has given us, not the least being the computor we are communicating with..
Yet, this same technology is destroying the planet…it seems western technology keeps cranking out inventions to control the envirnment and more than half turn out to be destroyers of the envirnment
Some things I get about western frame of mind, I can find in how the West aproaches its high arts, classical music, ballet…Every step of the way has to be controled , you have to play the score, every step a ballet dancer does is choerographed..there is this need to have the composer or the cheroegrapher be in control of everything…this is not the same concepts that you find in other cultures.
This doesnt mean symphonies and ballets arnt beautuful, they are wonderful, but, there are lots of other incredible ways to express music and dance in a very high leval, and, the western frame of thought would deny these cultures and their value , which is equal in any way to art coming out of the west
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@Michelle there is no such thing as ‘different races’ within Homo Sapien Sapiens – so the word Caucasian is outdated. Your ancestors came from Europe so I would say you are of European decent.
IMO, you can’t say you aren’t a white person. A cis-male man living in a patriarchal society can’t say ‘I’m not a man, I prefer to be called male of the human species’ because it means nothing. Politically and socially he can’t denounce his status even if was a feminist – he still benefits from a patriarchal/sexist system regardless.
What you can do is accept you are a white person and actively engage in antiracism work.
When I say ‘white people are evil’ I don’t mean MWAHahaha evil. I mean something similar to how companies that run factory farms severely mistreat animals and keep them in appalling conditions – not because they revel at the animals’ suffering – but because it means the company saves more money. That kind of oppression is rooted in capitalism. That kind of animal cruelty is evil – intention means nothing. Wouldn’t you call that company evil?
White people maintain a system that benefits them at the expense of PoC, to me, that’s evil.
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Duckgoofs….I dont care about your story…I care about the fact that you are either naive about racism , or something in your experiances has made you turn your back on the realities of the history of America and what black Americans have had to go through in the USA
You absolutly never ackowledge that racism that black Americans have faced and still are, only what seems ( notice Im saying “seems”) like petty ( petty in the sence that you are more concerned with the “logic” and the small picture than rather the “humanity” and the bigger picture) responces to peoples concerns on here about racism , mostly in the details of the Martin/ Zimmerman case
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@wilson, kwamla
In my personal opinion, I didn’t see it as closing the door, rather opening the door to discussion about it. If white people would come on here and give honest experiences of how they were brought up to believe stereotypes and hatred and how their parents, family, neighbors, friends have programmed them into this mindset…it would give a better understanding (not to be confused with acceptance) why things are the way they are and broaden that discussion as to how it can change. But the truth is…they would rather come to their own conclusion about what this article is about and defend themselves, acting as if the article was directed at them personally. It saddens me because I was hoping I would find others that are willing to step up and admit to this. But that is exactly the “something else”…ego and fear. Someone on here made comment about my experience and living in a box of a all white racist town and not knowing what it is like for people that don’t…I am about to do a “Miguel” here…but only because I feel it is important…I have been to 32 States and Hungary, Croatia, Bosnia, Austria and Germany. I lived in a barracks where I was the minority and another barracks where I wasn’t, so my views about whites and POC are from broad experience. I don’t expect everyone, particularly whites, to agree with my findings. But I don’t feel it should be ignored either. I didn’t go through my life and experiences blindly either, naive to some things that are considered racist and hurtful in the eyes of the beholder – yes…but for the most part I knew very well what was…Since I was 6 yrs old it has been something that has discerned and inspired me and that thought process was always there. I chose not to live inside a box that kept me naive to the world just to be happy and only think of myself. Which is what I found in a lot of people as well. I have had people ask me “Why do you care..your not black?”…I never understood that way of thinking. Something whites that come on here and seem to forget is the discussion of race is different than a typical philosophical debate. In this discussion you need to have compassion for human beings as a whole. It is not about trying to prove them wrong. The actions of whites, from this point on is what would have the potential to change a person’s feelings…but not prove their initial feelings wrong. I have said it a few times using different words but it usually gets ignored…I wonder why that is….oh, I know…ego and fear. Also I wanted to explain my understanding of human nature and the “evil” aspect. From my studies…It has been my opinion that human nature is ever changing…which is why it is constantly debated. Some philosophers believe that we as “humans” are born with one “nature”…but that nature evolves with time, culture, human experience, and education. At birth it is in our “nature” to be happy, loving, and forgiving…one of the reasons young children are so resilient…but that nature changes as humans grow and are subjected to the ways of the world..whether it be good or bad. Just my opinion 🙂
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@ Eco
White Americans are born with the same human nature as everyone else, but there is something in their culture that makes them different that accounts for the terrible things they have done – and that thing is not just advanced weaponry. It goes beyond that. American Indians, for example, were SHOCKED at how it was not enough for whites to simply defeat their enemies – they had to wipe them out. Not ALL whites do that, even when they can, and not JUST whites do that sort of thing. A point I made in that post you cited. So it is not a matter of race and it is not a UNIQUELY white thing. But it is rare, like some kind of cultural sickness, and White Americans have it.
The examples given above about ballet and the technological war against nature point to the same thing I am talking about. So does the invention of nuclear weapons.
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@ann
thank you for replying…I appreciate your opinions on this. It is hard to be associated with a race that is so evil…but I will continue with anything that I can to help change the mindsets of people. Unfortunately i feel that it will take years, and probably not in my lifetime to see real results…because I agree with what kwamla says about “deprogramming”. Parents need to stop programming their children to be racist. And to have a mind of their own and not go along with racist friends. I have had to ban children from my house because they were racist and mean to other children…my house is the neighborhood hangout lol. My children come home from school saying racist things they learned…and I have to immediately tell them what they said was wrong and hurtful and tell them if they ever said it again I would spank their butts! But sadly not many parents do that…which is why I don’t associate with them. I complained to the bus driver and the school…it actually worked at silencing them…but I don’t know if it changed the kids beliefs. I have been to many different play groups and it is disgusting what these parents teach their kids. Thanks again for your thoughts 🙂
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@ Abagond
Very briefly, before the trolls come charging in, the sickness in the white American culture comes from a dark place called extreme denial. Never having to own up the the massive heinous crimes they committed against other humans have given them a false sense of superiority…along with the ego to boot. That’s why they cringe at any criticism…they can’t handle it. And that’s why they self-harm…to feel something…anything.
Can you imagine the mental collapse when they are held accountable by the Highest Power? I’m almost afraid for them.
Almost.
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@truthbetold
Well said!
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@Abagond.
I still feel you are ignoring my point about the origin of “something else”. Was it created by (or because of) human nature?
Let’s try this:
In an alternative reality at a very early point of humanity’s history black people and white people switch places. There are black people in Europe and white people in Africa. Would that lead to white slaves, a black Mozart, a white Nelson Mandela, black Nazis killing black Jews, black soldiers dropping a nuke on Hiroshima and a white civil rights movement?
Yes? Then how is this behavior something other than human nature?
No? Then how can you say the nature of white people isn’t different from regular human nature?
P.S. Yeah, I know I simplified the idea of an alternative reality, but I think you understand what I meant.
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It’s become clear that the validity of the concept of “race” isn’t agreed on by people here, black or white, the blog owner or others. It also get used where convenient, and denied where not.
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@eco
Doesn’t abagond address your question in this comment?
Abagond says…
“White Americans are born with the same human nature as everyone else, but there is something in their culture that makes them different that accounts for the terrible things they have done – and that thing is not just advanced weaponry…”
So it looks like it is culture, not human nature that abagond feels is the answer to your question.
–I have my own thoughts but since you directly questioned abagond then I will sit this one out–
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@deedee7789
Where does culture come from?
I think the culture of white Americans was not something that was imposed on them. They created it, accepted it and they uphold it. Blaming their culture is effectively blaming them, their nature. If the culture is special, is something others couldn’t create or accept, then its creators are special too.
If you want to voice your opinions, please do. I’m sure Abagond will agree that this is not a private conversation.
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@eco
I honestly feel that it is a mix of human nature and culture that drives any individual. Culture tells us that killing is wrong but human nature guides us to defend our lives by any mean necessary. Sometimes culture and human nature can be at odds but also supplement each other. There have been nations that want to be the best and to procreate (human nature) while belief in superiority (culture) can help in leading to genocide.
Concerning culture, elements from different cultures can have similarities so I don’t believe that culture is necessarily unique and is a evolving thing. The source of culture..I’m am honestly not sure. Parts could be human nature and I consider human nature to be something natural (born with) while culture is learned. I agree with points that you and abagond have brought up but I feel that neither alone completely explains the something else. Maybe I find humans to be too complex.
Please, let me know if something is not clear or makes sense.
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Nice to see that we have all reached an agreement that this “something else” exists. We don’t know how to specifically define it but we can see its effects and its uniqueness to one particular culture as one of the major defining features of that culture.
Other cultures might exhibit it every now and again but not to the degree and consistency that white culture does.
@ eco,
Yes culture is free from people and at the same time is what defines people. If you criticize culture, one is criticizing the people that belong to that culture and at the same time one isn’t really criticizing individuals. Culture is thought patterns, emotional expectations, worldview etc shared by a collective. If you change those you can change a particular culture.
This is one reason why we can never truly be individuals because we are a collective and we share collective responsibility. White people when they deny what has gone before because they weren’t involved in it, but instead there ancestors were who are divorced from the present, they are denying that essence of “collective” responsibility. We don’t live in a vacuum, we live connected to the past and future, what white people do today will affect the world their children’s children experience in future etc.
Where does culture come from? I don’t know. What drives it? People who subscribe to those particular views.
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@Abagond
Considering your last response to Eco. I’ve highlighted two of your statements which I consider to be contradictory and think need to be resolved:
(1) “…White Americans are born with the same human nature as everyone else, but there is something in their culture that makes them different that accounts for the terrible things they have done…”
and this…
(2) “…it is not a matter of race and it is not a UNIQUELY white thing. But it is rare, like some kind of cultural sickness, and White Americans have it…”
I also think the example Eco gave of an <b<alternative Black reality cleverly illustrates this point. Would events generally have been the same way or different?
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Just to clear something up about Human Nature and Culture. If we all collectively on this planet have the same human nature (whatever that may be) then all peoples or human beings will reflect part, if not all,of this in their developing cultures.
However, if we believe not ALL Human Natures are the same then we would and could expect this to show up in different cultures too. So we just basically need to decide which one of these two views we subscribe to
Remembering of course if we subscribe to the view there are different Human Natures then we, by implication, subscribe to the associated view of different Races as well. Good luck with arguing that one!
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@Kwamla Hesse & @eco
Concerning the human nature aspect of things addressed with the alternate universe example. It would definitely be the same if location, history, etc. never changed but just the people. The need for resources and a want for expansion would still be there. Survival is a basic human need, the means of surviving can be very diverse depending on the action that a individual chooses to take. So maybe a “threat” to survival is the something else that can drive people to heinous acts against a large group of other people? That is one potential viewpoint but it is too limited and doesn’t explain much ><.
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@deedee
White people are not the only ones to develop under a tough environment…
So I don’t think environment totally covers the behavior we see.
Look at Eskimos, they live and have been living in the cold wastelands of the northern pole for thousands of years and yet I wouldn’t say they are “racist, aggressive, xenophobic etc”. Look at arabs who live and developed in deserts, look at Mongols nowadays “after” genghis khan…
None of this possess the same degree of aggression and xenophobia that we see from those who developed in Europe…
Environment doesn’t cover the whole picture. There is still “something else” there.
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@deedee7789
“Culture tells us that killing is wrong but human nature guides us to defend our lives by any mean necessary.”
I tend to see culture as part of human nature. Its more advanced, sophisticated form. So, from this perspective the situation you described is basically nature vs nature. A conflict of two instincts. I’m not saying you point of view is wrong, just different.
“Parts could be human nature and I consider human nature to be something natural (born with) while culture is learned.”
I do not see nature and culture as separate things. I think it’s part of human nature to learn from the people who raise us, from the people around us, and so we absorb their way of acting, thinking and their culture. Being brought up without contact with sophisticated culture is a kind of culture too.
@wilson
“Nice to see that we have all reached an agreement that this ‘something else’ exists”
I do not think it exists. I’m assuming it exists to show that its existence causes contradictions and thus “something else” can’t exist. A ‘proof by contradiction’ kind of thing.
@Kwamla Hesse
Thank you! I love this comment. I agree with every word.
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@wilson
I think that the purpose of my post was not clear to you (and possibly others).
“The need for resources and a want for expansion would still be there”
This does not mean “tough environment”. A growing population needs resources to be sustained and space to prevent overcrowding and extremely unsanitary conditions. That is what I meant.
“Survival is a basic human need, the means of surviving can be very diverse depending on the action that a individual chooses to take.”
I mention that individuals survive in different ways depending on personal decisions. The point of mentioning survival is to say something that can drive a person to act (ergo a hungry child/adult may steal food if no money can be made to buy it). That is not about surviving tough conditions.
“So maybe a “threat” to survival is the something else that can drive people to heinous acts against a large group of other people? That is one potential viewpoint but it is too limited and doesn’t explain much ><.”
I ended my post by showing that survival can be a viewpoint but that it is not a full explanation.
——————————————————————————————————–
Survival can also include continuing your line (procreation) and of course not being outnumbered by potential enemies. Think about that for a moment and maybe my post will be a little more clear….your smart you will catch on.
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@eco
“Culture tells us that killing is wrong but human nature guides us to defend our lives by any mean necessary.”
By culture I mean laws that are defined by culture which I feel is separate and independent from human nature. In some countries things that are legal are illegal in others. Culture defines the difference. Human nature does not prevent the act (legal or illegal) from being done. That is what I mean by the two being at odds. I view culture and human nature as separate but I have already mentioned that culture can have a part of human nature. That is my opinion and I understand your viewpoint as well.
eco said
“I do not see nature and culture as separate things. I think it’s part of human nature to learn from the people who raise us, from the people around us, and so we absorb their way of acting, thinking and their culture. Being brought up without contact with sophisticated culture is a kind of culture too.”
I see we view human nature and culture differently. What you just described I view as culture (the learning aspect). Human nature to me is eating when hungry, seeking safety when in danger (or defending yourself and loved ones). Culture to me is how those things are done like eating only with fingers or utensils for example. There is definitely some overlap but I still view them as separate. I do understand your viewpoint and respect it while I disagree with some of it.
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eco,
Well I guess multiple researchers are mistaken then eco. For one the research into psychopathy is gaining great traction nowadays to explain what we witness today but someone should like tell them there isn’t anything to be found there.
Another one is to do with the spread of ponerology. Another piece of research by people like Dr Ani Marimba I guess is irrelevant as well…
Everything is fine, what we witness is normal. Just human nature. Maybe also due to technology as well. Yes makes total sense.
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@wilson
I think you have failed to notice how Abagond’s “something else” is defined. Observations, research about humanity in general isn’t relevant in this case.
Also, I think you should read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
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I have a question, what is this “something else” eco is referring to?
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@eco
Uh… something else is a pretty broad term, eco, since it can mean absolutely anything in the world. Being specific is your friend when trying to make your point.
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@brothawolf
from my understanding…it is just eco making a big deal out of nothing to derail. I think abagond was saying “something else” to not rule out other causes unknown to him…but I could be wrong.
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There’s nothing special about White people when there’s really no such thing as White people anyway! They are Europeans who are descendants of Africans who were trapped in the ice age and transformed over 100,000 years of change. The last remaining real africans were little people called Leprechauns aka Pigmigs. There are also Pigmigs in the South Pacific who gave birth to the Philipino Indians and brought Stick fighting to the Islands called Kali which gave birth to Pen Kalat Silat and Wing Chun. Little people needed sticks to match the long arms of normal size humans. Also in Japan there were such little Africans who traveled there by boats and trade winds.
A better understanding of European history needs to be done by everybody. Especially Africans who think Europeans are just these mean and cruel bastards who conquered and enslaved everybody. When in fact much of what European expansion occured only in recent history since Alexander the Great. This Greek King benefited from his tribes strong armies who invaded other European Greek tribes all 10 of them and and made them all into one. This gave him enormous power which he used to invade Indus Kush and Egypt. But Gheghis Khan did the very same thing who he invaded his fellow tribes and forced them all into one army before turning that army unto China and the far east.
Going back to Egypt aka Kemet the great Warrior King Priest Menes aka 1st Pharoah of Egypt did the same thing. He united most of the Southern tribes and attacked the Northern ones forcing all into one whole.
What most of you don’t understand about the Messiah is what I just explained above. When a messiah comes he will do just that he will wipe out all dissent to his rule and bring all the fractions under one branch. This occurs amongst every geographical group every few 100 years or so. There’s always a fearless warrior that will rise up and want not just to rule his tribe but all others. This what Europeans went through with various great Kings amongst them that gave them their great expansion of territory aka empire.
This will also happen in Africa as predicted by Nastrodamus. Long after world war 3 which is very soon. We are living in the very crossroads of World War 3 and the chaotic apolcapse. A Black King will rise in Africa and he will unite all the nations into one nation. Blood will be at the end of his sword and his soldiers will spare no mercy! There will also be an uprising here in the Diaspora and there will be one right here in America. But it won’t be against White People it will be against Blacks who oppose unity.
When we look back at Great Civilizations of our ancestors I mean all of them. The Africans, Asians, Indians, Europeans and Pacific Islands all of the great civilizations were bore due to war and expansion. No sermon or gifts falling from the sky will make Africans great again it will come due to war!
The fear of dying and living in pain that your slavemasters put in you still confuses your minds. When you read history you read it backwards and not in the proper manner it happened. Even scripture reading is twisted and confused because of your misunderstanding of historical happenings around mythological recorded events. Your fear of dying and loss of property manifests your lack of faith in God’s ability to destroy and rebuild better. The slave mind must die and fear must perish in order for you to stop obessing with Europeans and get on with building your own reality.
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@John Washington
There… there is just so much wrong with this comment that I cannot even handle telling you everything that is wrong with it. It’s nothing but a pile of lunatic raving that makes contradicts itself multiple times.
And why does your name link back to one of abagond’s articles? It’s not yours, you don’t have the right to link back to it as if it belonged to you.
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Yeah right…
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Am I the only one who thinks that John Washington’s comment made no sense, especially in regards to this post?
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^No.
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@brothawolf
“I have a question, what is this ‘something else’ eco is referring to?”
last paragraph:
“Something else” is how Abagond refers to a factor that makes white racism so hateful it becomes unnatural. It is not an ordinary part of human nature, it’s not power, it’s not technology, but it can be some aspect of white Americans’ culture. The origin of “something else” is unknown.
@tehnoun
“Uh… something else is a pretty broad term, eco, since it can mean absolutely anything in the world. Being specific is your friend when trying to make your point.”
Read the whole conversation before you make a comment. It’s Abagond’s term.
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eco,
From my understanding, that “something else” is something unique. Why would a group of people for so long look down on other groups of people who aren’t like them in order for them to feel good about themselves? It’s no different than a typical schoolyard bully, wifebeater, or rapist.
*Of course we’re not talking about every single white person on the planet, but it refers to those who have that mindset. So, if you get upset by this comment, maybe – just maybe it may have touched something about yourself you wanted to remain hidden or else you wouldn’t care as much.
The best examples I can think of are the run-of-the-mill trolls that show up here and other like-sites. Why do they feel the need to come to a blog that wasn’t meant for them? Why do they want to inject the usual statistics arguments to show that black people are inferior? Why do they believe in race realism while not believing that it is racism? Why do they want blacks and whites to separate so much that they would pledge towards hatred instead of love and respect?
These and other questions we ask white people who are suffering. Why them? Because collectively, they haven’t been really questioned in a long, long time. Everyone else has been questioned about what they are and why. Sometimes there are no questions asked. It is just assumed. So, why should whites be exempt?
Think about it.
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@brothawolf
“From my understanding, that ‘something else’ is something unique. Why would a group of people for so long look down on other groups of people who aren’t like them in order for them to feel good about themselves? It’s no different than a typical schoolyard bully, wifebeater, or rapist. ”
What is the origin of something else? Is it ordinary human nature to succumb to it? Or, are white people uniquely prone to develop or accept “something else”?
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TheNoun
You have no right to criticize John Washington. You need to understand that this blog isn’t for YOU. It’s for PoC. So learn to shut up and listen when blacks are talking.
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I have extremely limited computer access these days, I find the tangent of ponerology to be superficially valid from my ‘expert’ opinion of white people i should say. Today in the park, I was talking to 3 white dudes and one couldn’t go 2 sentences without dropping the n-bomb, this and that about puerto ricans etc., the other one opined he was a ‘drunk nazi’ having come from irish and german lineage. I mean the sky was blue, a nice day was just starting, coulda been talking about anything. I do not feel tacitly complicit, the one guy cursing everything was explaining how he had been up all night getting high and he had just finished his breakfast 40 oz. of beer so what am I going to do get in a fight? Maybe I come to this site because there is a point to all this.
my 2c
-tc
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@duckduckgoofs
“TheNoun
You have no right to criticize John Washington. You need to understand that this blog isn’t for YOU. It’s for PoC. So learn to shut up and listen when blacks are talking.”
I don’t understand why you feel this way. I have put my 2 cents in on many posts and not once has anyone on here made me feel as though I am not welcome, except for a few white posters. This is the first blog site that I have felt accepted and my opinions and experiences were not condemned, whether they go along with other’s or not. I try to respond with tact and give my response in a way that I would want others to respond to me. I have been upset with a lot of your posts because they sound like things that the many self acclaimed white racists that I have talked to in my life would say when I spoke with them on racism. I don’t doubt that you have had personal experiences that have influenced your personal thoughts and feelings…that is something that no one can take from you…the same applies to everyone on here that has had horrible experiences. But, I truly wish that you would feel comfortable sharing your feelings in a less defensive, offensive and accusatory manner. It would make it easier to see your views and be able to discuss them in less hostile environment.
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@thomas
Sorry..I have to google some of the words you used before I can reply to you. Even though I am educated and experienced….the extent of my conversations have been with two small children for most of the last 8 yrs so I need to brush up. lol 🙂
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well slow but sure i’m finding my voice, i blab on my facebook a lot though, i’m not even sure what i would blog about, my life is such a wreck right now. someone else referenced ponerology regarding a general sense of what i infer as ‘white insecurity’ as my presumtion for most w->* racism. like the guy in the park today was basically inferring all the puerto ricans that came to reading pa and got ssdi were somehow absorbing or diminishing his disability payment, he was very ignorant and didn’t even consider PR as a US territory, it was some vague foreign country to him… and if you get $650-700 a month like him you never worked a day in your life so that’s a whole other story though.
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@Michelle
“How To Interact With Black People”
Michelle, all whites are not racist, but, all whites benefit and have benefitted from the wickedness of their white forefathers…Ditto! Secondly, whitemen and whitewomen are one in the same and not the same at the same time…Ditto! Thirdly, whitemen did the dirty deed, but, whitewomen have unclean hands as well. Fourthly, are you as a white female willing to give up “white priviledge” to coexist with black people in this country? Fifthly, do you respect black womanhood as a white female…blackwomen suffered for your benefit…are you willing to acknowledge that? Why i ask these basic questions? A lot of whitewomen on this planet claim to love blackness and blackmen so much, but, they contribute nothing to the advancement and upliftment of the black race at the same time. You’re a member of this blog, so, i’m assuming you’re fond of blackmen, educated guess. The fundamental point i wanna get across to you and other whitewomen, is that, it can’t just be about the physical and sexual going forward. At some point, whitewomen have to show their metal. I say and have said critical things about whitewomen on this blog, as it relates to the inter-racial issue, affirmative-action, abortion, etc. At the same time, i’m willing to acknowledge that WW are relevant in our race and have been over the course of time. But, blackwomen will always be the star of the show in my mind, don’t get it twisted. The fundamental point…WW can be an asset to our race or a liability, depending on their state of mind. Sistas, don’t fret, just trying to move the debate forward.
Tyrone
Global Eros
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eco,
You asked, “What is the origin of something else? Is it ordinary human nature to succumb to it? Or, are white people uniquely prone to develop or accept “something else”?”
Who knows where it came from or why does it keep going. I know that it’s normal for someone to feel good by putting others down, even at a collective group level. So, it may be human nature just like it’s human nature to fear and hate what is considered “different”.
What is unnatural is that this kind of “nature” keeps going without any signs of slowing down from the group who is seems “content” with it no matter how damaging it will be in the long run. I question the existence of God and what He, She or It is, but if God is what a lot of people say He/She/It is, then those people may truly have hell to pay.
I’ll say this: As long as white people still have the economic, political, and societal advantages not to mention the myths and lies associated with it over other groups then they will most likely develop or accept that “something else” as long as it exists.
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[…] 1. “Blacks are just as racist!/Whites are not uniquely evil!“ […]
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I feel whites are uniquely evil..I mean when u examine their history of destruction on planet earth , it seems they are not even of this earth. I am not a racist and I don’t live under some rock somewhere but any group of people that circumvents the globe and wreaks havoc and mayhem not only on the indigenous people they encounter but on the very land these people live off of is uniquely evil. I don’t know if I met the Taino people who gifted me with balls of string and feathers I would not rape them or enslave them and destroy their way of life or jump on their backs to get free rides or test the sharpness of my knife by slicing off hunks of their flesh.I wouldn’t burden people with a “god” I didn’t believe in.I don’t have an insatiable desire to commit genocide,sorry.My bloodlust is not stirred when I watch the privations of other human beings but hey, thats just me..lol.
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@ Tyrone, all whites are racist. Understand that , whites have different roles they adopt, the out and out racist, the liberal, the right-winger, The miscegenator. But let me tell u something, they are all on the same page and have the very same agenda. That is the fundamental difference between them and us.White people are on the same page, black people are not.
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The “Whites are not uniquely evil” argument comes from inherent guilt. I agree that in the efforts of the racist historians of yesteryear to denigrate blacks, they left the impression that all whites were supposed to be in a better condition than blacks. The truth is throughout American history, there have always been land-holding, wealthy, educated blacks and poor, uneducated whites. Even today there are wealthy, successful blacks and poor, unaccomplished whites. Old historians and the media have a way of stereotyping both races, showing whites in a positive light and the reverse for Blacks, which is why many whites feel they are “special.” We can only blame ignorance for this. Anyone with a thorough understanding of history (NOT historical analysis), would know better.
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Ok, hang on here. I do not necessarily agree completely with ECO, but.. “Every single black person in the eyes of white people is the sign of a terrible crime from their ugly past, a reminder that their life is a fraud, that they are pretty much nothing more than armed robbers.” When you go around saying stuff like that I’m kind of baffled by why so many people here (Yourself included). seem to be unable to understand why someone would conclude from statements like that that you believe whites are uniquely evil, and more so then other races. Eco is right, you have implied it many times.
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Not claiming to understand what you think, just saying how it sounds to me, and clearly others. I’m not even saying you shouldn’t believe that if you do believe it. I’m just saying that it’s not unreasonable to conclude after reading your blog that you prefer people who don’t have pale skin to those that do.
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Yeah they are, or this wouldn’t even be a topic.
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Blackness come to coincide with the threatening, the dangerous, the violent, the thrilling, the exciting and also the dirty but desirable, allowing whiteness to look at itself as morally ideal, decent, civilized and majestically generous, in complete control and free of the anxiety its history causes. We become then the mental representation of what the white master fears to acknowledge about her/himself: in this case, the violent thief, the indolent and malicious robber. Such dishonorable aspects whose intensity make them to unpleasant and shameful, are projected outside as a means of escaping them. In racism, denial is used to maintain and legitimate violent structures of racial exclusion: ‘They want to take what is Ours and therefore They have to be excluded.’ Although the plantation and its fruits do ‘morally’ belong to the colonized, the colonizer interprets it perversely reading it as a sign of robbery.
The black subject turns into the intrusive enemy, the white subject becomes the sympathetic hero. In other words, the oppressor becomes the oppressed and the oppressed becomes the tyrant. The slaver the injured and the enslaved the injurious. (Grada Kilomba, “plantation Memories”)
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The following from Blackman’s comment bears repeating:
The black subject turns into the intrusive enemy, the white subject becomes the sympathetic hero. In other words, the oppressor becomes the oppressed and the oppressed becomes the tyrant. The slaver the injured and the enslaved the injurious[….]”
– – –
Perverse and, as its turned out, oh so true.
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Yes Fiamma. I rewrote that from Grada Kilomba’s book “plantation memories” it is a small book of only 150 pages. I found the book from Abagond. He did a post on Her. She is portugese and black. She chooses blackness. This single book OPENED MY EYES beyond anything I have ever read. She deconstructs the psychology behind racism and how it is propounded upon people of color.
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How so? Why do you Tyrone constantly compare white women to black women? What next…black children can’t be born without white women? You come off as obsessed with the idea that white women as a whole are willing to forsake “whiteness” for something else…like blackness in all of its myriad forms–*gasp*!
Let’s establish some important facts: the history of black women socially, culturally, and politically is unique to black people as a whole and vastly different from that of white women. I find it highly offensive that you can imply that black people somehow need input and support from white women to be “alright”. Now if you are not saying this educate me, but you sound dangerously close in suggesting that in order for black people to exist we need white women to do so.
Also don’t forget Tyrone, if you bring white women into the livelihoods of black people you will also be bringing white men–whom you believe to be “pathetic” as you stated on Truthbetold’s blog–because white men are the fathers, husbands, brothers, uncles and sons of white women.
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I find it fascinating that despite living in New York, the most liberal/progressive city in America, you STILL had your racial views shaped by such a progressive paradise. God forbid you ever spend a day in a conservative, homogeneously white town – of which there are thousands here in Middle America. Your claim that New York City police “were not merely bad but evil to the bone” was probably the most interesting statement about your living experience, IMO
Anyway, as much as I disagree with your views about race, you actually make valid points about white Americans not being able to “relate” to black people and the black historical experience. Whites today are committed to a race-blind, universal perspective of the world. Jared Taylor described the thinking of most whites like so: “Race is an insignificant matter and not a valid criterion for any purpose—except perhaps for redressing wrongs done to non-whites. The races are equal in every respect and are therefore interchangeable. It thus makes no difference if a neighborhood or nation becomes non-white or if white children marry outside their race. Whites have no valid group interests, so it is illegitimate for them to attempt to organize as whites. Given the past crimes of whites, any expression of racial pride is wrong. The displacement of whites by non-whites through immigration will strengthen the United States.”
There are important variances between white liberals and white conservatives, but for the most part the lexicon described by Taylor is the white norm. You being a self-described Marxist, I’m sure you would dismiss Taylor’s description out of hand. But then you must ask yourself, why do so many whites appeal to Martin Luther King and to the “purple people” argument? Why do white liberals support affirmative action, section 8 housing, and all policies that facilitate integration? Why do white liberals preach diversity and multiculturalism? I’m sure your retort would be that whites have shifted their rhetorical strategy but not their bottom line. And i’m sure you would argue that reforms such as the 1964 Civil Rights Act are only the tip of the ice burg of what must be done to right racial injustices against blacks by whites. Hence why you said, ” whites need to give reparations more than blacks need to receive it.”
But therein lies the problem: What you perceive as the tip of the iceberg, whites perceive as the end all-be all. In other words, as far as most whites are concerned, legalized racism vies a vie Jim Crow is extinct. Segregation of the kind George Wallace championed is over. The exception, and its not an insignificant one, is white liberals. White liberals make it very clear that blacks and non-whites are still discriminated against, racism still exists, and further reforms/policies must be implemented by the federal government to alleviate or even eliminate racism and inequality. For example, Joan Walsh of Salon, who herself is a white Irish Catholic from New York, argued that the shared prosperity created for the white middle class must be expanded to “disadvantaged” non-white Americans.
But even with white liberals, most of them flat out deny that they want reparations for blacks and other non-whites. I’ve even had white liberals tell me that the prospect of reparations is “racist fear-mongering!” White liberals still don’t want to go NEARLY as far as you do, Julian. Hell, white liberals run for the hills even faster then white conservatives do when their hometowns are forcefully integrated. As Michael Emerson explained: “I do believe that white people are being sincere when they claim that racial inequality is not a good thing and that they’d like to see it eliminated. However…their liberal attitudes about race aren’t reflected in their behavior.” Hence the existence of white flight.
So then Julian, I think we can both agree that there is a MASSIVE gap between what whites perceive as sufficient means of racial justice and what blacks like you perceive as sufficient means of racial justice. In other words, most whites want nothing to do with reparations, and most whites flee for homogeneous areas even as they proclaim the glories of integration and diversity. As Joe Sobran brilliantly put it: “In their mating and migratory habits, (white) liberals are indistinguishable from members of the Ku Klux Klan.”
On the other hand, you explicitly demand reparations, and if i was a betting man, I’d say you want laws on the books which prevent white flight from happening – prevent whites from fleeing to homogeneous suburbs. Or perhaps instead of coercing whites to stay where they are, you would put section 8 housing on steroids by forcefully integrating every neighborhood and town where the percentage of the population is deemed “too white” (say, any higher their total percentage of the population, which right now is 64% for non-Hispanic whites).
In order for two parties to come to an agreement, some kind of common ground is required. In this case, that common ground doesn’t exist. The chasm between what you want and what whites want is so HUGE that an agreement satisfactory to both parties is impossible. Your demands for reparations are intolerable. If you want us to surrender our wealth and our property in the name of reparations for sins committed by our ancestors, then you’ll have to take it from our cold dead hands. Its possible that you could convince us to willingly surrender it, but I don’t think even white liberals would go that far. White liberals are more likely to join whites like me in the conservative ranks then to surrender their wealth and private property to non-whites who are undeserving and unworthy of it – like you.
Furthermore, what strikes me as extremely problematic with blacks like you is your seeming inability or unwillingness to engage in introspective thought. Most of you seem content to exist as the perpetual victims of white society no matter how obvious your problems are your own fault. This trait has been a great barrier to assimilating into the larger society and I don’t see anything beyond the token black celebrity calling for peace and an end to black on black violence that indicates this will ever change. The entire black worldview is filtered through an anti-white victim lens that is inculcated from an early age. Until you drop that lens and negotiate with us in good faith, we have ZERO obligation to relate to you.
As it stands, your worldview is morally bankrupt. It is an ugly, narcissistic stench. As much as we wish anti-white bigots like you would get the hell out of our country, we know exactly why you stay: Because here you can make money – and at whitey’s expense I might add. Here you have an infinitely superior standard of living compared to your ancestral homelands in Africa. But money doesn’t buy you class. Money doesn’t buy you character. Money doesn’t change your IQ. Money simply gives you an opportunity to possibly be the man or woman you would like to be (or capable of being) with less worry about paying your bills or putting food on the table.
It should be clear that if there is any truth to the notion that the police just don’t understand blacks, then that would simply be because black people, as a whole, do not understand white society. We have already massively reformed our society and our laws to accommodate you. No other race has done that for any other race. If you still can’t cut it, then too bad! YOU are the problem. Your rotten attitude is the problem. You are responsible for integrating into OUR society, not the other way around. How dare you or any other non-white person demand that WE sacrifice our wealth and our property to conform to YOU and your parasitical wishes!! How dare you demand that WE conform to YOU! it is YOUR obligation – and the obligation of your people – to negotiate with us in good faith, not the other way around!
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@ Dan Poole
Reparations = back pay at interest for hundreds of years of slave labour. Payable to all U.S. citizens, age 18 or older, who identified as black on the 2010 census. That is my definition.
In this case it is whites who are parasitical, morally bankrupt and unworthy of the wealth they have.
Hardly. Blacks to this day are underpaid. Blacks helped to build up the wealth of the country, something whites continue to benefit from to an unfair degree, taking out more than they put in.
You say racism is dead but then make racist statements like this. And use racist slurs (whitey).
You yourself noted that white liberals SAY all the right words but act like they are Klan. So even you admit whites are still racist – and therefore still a problem for blacks.
Since you value introspection, read this:
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Dan Poole-Whites today are committed to a race-blind, universal perspective of the world.
Until they r actually confronted with diversity which is every damned day and then u see what racists they truly r….
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@Dan Poole. Just click on the link at the top of the website marked ‘Broken Record Department’ thanks and shut up.
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I find it ironic that someone would end an exhaustingly long tirade accusing a group of formerly enslaved people of being parasites with the claim that it is their responsibility to negotiate with the former captors in good faith. The statement brings to mind the good faith with which the native people of the Americas were dealt with several hundred years ago. Perhaps the writer forgot to state that only his group deserve to be dealt with such good faith. All others should just take what they get.
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The original Ni GG ER–the white man, who has, for centuries, happily lived off of the labor of black and brown people; the original entitlement & welfare ‘queen’, the under-the-table and off-the-book, kickback champion, always projecting..narcissistic to the bone–even when he thinks he’s talking about us–he’s still talking about himself-and is too depraved and deluded to realize it. The problem is people of color and in particular, black people, understand you all too well–and at your core, that is what galls you–the fact that when you look at yourselves thru our eyes, you see a true reflection of what you try to hide and deny, even from yourselves–and it leaves you breathless and aghast.
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@Julian:
I don’t bloody care what your definition of “reparations” is. Very few whites do. You want reparations, but odds are the only way you will get them is through brute force. Who knows, maybe brute force will work for you. But brute force puts you in a moral dilemma because you so strongly condemn it when whites use it. If I may offer some advice: When it comes to racism, inequality, and everything else that you wish to alleviate, you should explicitly argue that the exact same action is good if it benefits blacks & harms whites and bad if it harms blacks & benefits whites. You should acknowledge that morality is NOT universal; that morality is in fact tribal. I read that you converted to Catholicism, so this might be difficult for you to do. But whether you realize it or not, all your arguments on this site are tribal anyway.
Moreover, your arguments are denigrating to white people – and you freely admit that you don’t care. Yet, you pretend that your moral indignation is based on (non-existent) universal norms, and you demonize whites when we take actions that preserve and defend our people, our culture, our heritage, and our freedoms. White flight is the most prominent of these actions. I completely agree with “deepdkchocolate” when she said whites don’t practice what they preach in regards to diversity. In fact, I will submit this to you:
-WHEREAS you argue that whites should practice what they preach. I argue that whites should preach what they practice.
Most whites are unwilling to say this, but i will: Diversity is a death pill. As Frank Salter explained, diversity is associated with “reduced democracy, slowed economic growth, falling social cohesion and foreign aid, as well as rising corruption and risk of civil conflict.” Ethnic diversity is also associated with “reduced public altruism or social capital, evident in falling volunteerism, government welfare for the aged and sick, public health care and a general loss of trust. Ethnic diversity is second only to lack of democracy in predicting civil war. Globally it correlates negatively with governmental efficiency and prosperity.” Critically, Salter points to “invidious ethnic stratification” as an inevitable result: “No one likes to be ruled over by a different ethnic group or to see his own people worse off than others. The result is resentment or contempt, depending on the perspective taken.”
Granted, I don’t expect you to stop arguing in universalist terms. I don’t expect whites to stop doing so either. Universalism offers the drug of moral self-righteousness. Universalism is ultimately a pathetic justification for us to feel good about ourselves. In my experience, every race and every religion is guilty of it to some extent. But the way of the world – the intrinsic reality of human relations since the dawn of man – is tribalism. I for one see nothing wrong with tribalism in a world where world peace will NEVER happen and where a “shared humanity” is a laughable MYTH. As French philosopher Joseph de Maistre observed “In the course of my life, I have seen Frenchmen, Italians, Russians… . But, as for Man, I declare that I have never met him in my life. If he exists, I certainly have no knowledge of him.”
For example, the truth is that 9/11 was evil because 3000 innocent Americans were killed. But from the Muslim perspective, those 3000 Americans were guilty infidels. 9/11 was not universally good or evil. I’m hard pressed to think of anything that is universally good or evil. I’d like to believe murder and rape are universally evil, but there are retrograde societies where murder and rape are morally acceptable, such as honor killings in Muslim countries.
What I’m trying to get you to see, Julian, is that all your arguments are steeped in tribalism. Your universal morality disregards whites and as such is invalid. I don’t have the time to deconstruct all the anti-white lies you spew on here, nor do I need to. Most whites see it for the non-sense that it is. What you said to me is a classic example:
“Blacks to this day are underpaid.”
The hell you’re not! You get paid WAY MORE then you deserve. Try to ignore the URL title and pay attention to the charts:
http://www.whitenationalism.com/div/Diversity.html
For whatever its worth, I don’t consider myself a white nationalist. Pro-white would be an accurate description. I want whats best for my family, my people, and my nation. I’m one of many who knows that anti-racist is just a code word for anti-white
But getting back to the point, it is appallingly disingenuous of you to pretend that your morality is universal when it is in fact tribal. You argue with a straight face, “to those whites who feel the need to defend their history, my advice is: Don’t. The bad parts should be roundly condemned by any honest person of any race with any sense.” Yet on another post you argued that “there is absolutely nothing wrong with black people other than the bad patch of history they are going through, its side effects and the ordinary human failings.”
Translated: White history is bad, black history is good.
Tribalism at its finest!
MAN UP AND OWN IT!!!
“Since you value introspection, read this”
I did, and if you knew anything about me you’d know I spend plenty of time in other corners of the internet pleading with my fellow whites to wake the hell up. I came here because I felt the need to remind myself of what whites are up against, so I typed in “whites are evil” in a Yahoo! search, and this was the first link. I wasn’t disappointed in what I found. Oh, and here’s what else I found from my search. Its a blog called Undercover Black Man. I already know you’ll dismiss him as an Uncle Tom, but nonetheless, what he shared is powerful:
“What is necessary for a group of people to conceive, implement and maintain for centuries an effective system of world domination? Intelligence perhaps? Hello!
“And what’s lacking in another group of people – those identified as “black,” who were architects of great ancient civilizations – that they now find themselves, everywhere on Earth, utterly controlled by whites and their “supremacy system”? How’d they fall for the okey-doke?
“This element of black-nationalist thought – ceaselessly overstating the impact of white racism – runs the risk of calling attention back to the old superior/inferior dialectic. This is a rhetorical problem. How can you say that Whitey rules everything around you… without giving Whitey the credit for being smarter?
“The solution: White people must be evil.”
http://undercoverblackman.blogspot.com/2007/11/are-white-people-inherently-evil.html
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@ Dan Poole
Reparations may not be politically possible now, but neither was outlawing slavery till 1864. Whites are not going to be the majority forever.
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@Dan Poole
Jay…? Jay from Philly?? Is that you, you old silly dog!! Or is that a sly fox? lol
Seriously, even if you aren’t Jay, all of you silly trolls that drive by, spill your spiel … have this way of saving the same damn tired thing we’ve heard before as you trolls present your bankrupt points as if it’s an original and logical thesis.
Blah, blah, yada, yada….
{{{YAWN! … zzzzzz..zzzzzzzzzz….zzzzzzzzzzzzz}}}
smh — unbelievable ..!
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@ Matari
Not sure who Dan Poole is. He keeps appearing in my spam filter, so he might be someone I banned.
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@ Dan Poole
According to Islam, from what I understand, 9/11 was a cowardly, immoral act because it was aimed mainly at killing civilians.
The 9/11 hijackers no more represent the Muslim moral consensus than, say, Hitler represents the Christian moral consensus.
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@ Dan Poole
If I am being tribalisitc then I am being wrong, but you have not given any good examples of that as far as I can see. You would have to point out a case where I give blacks a moral pass for doing something I condemn in whites. Maybe you think I do that all the time, but I think if you look at the particulars in any one case that is not what is going on.
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Another good example of irony is a person writing another long essay accusing someone of tribalism while insisting that they, on the other hand, have the right to protect his people. Perhaps this person should be more economic with their words and just say that they don’t like people who are not like them.
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@ Dan Poole
You have an.. interesting mind…
Confused as it is with all the half-baked theories swept from the philosophical dustbin of least century’s intellectual castoffs—Jared Taylor, Joe Sobran, Frank Salter… you have built for yourself quite the pseudoscientific labyrinth for yourself there. You’re making a lot of old, bad, arguments and filtering them through the porous screen of a claptrap worldview, invented for the sole purpose of justifying lunacy to a weak-minded audience. Just the right mix of illogical and disjointed thinking to allow dummies to believe that they are in fact being “intellectual” in their racist beliefs.
But for me this is the most interesting part:
You emphatically state that morality is NOT universal but is in fact tribal. Yet here you are doggedly attempting to argue your own morality directly to another tribe. HELLO, am I missing something? It would be enlightening to learn why it is you believe that you are here doing this?
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You have an.. interesting mind…
To say the least.
HELLO, am I missing something? It would be enlightening to learn why it is you believe that you are here doing this?
Isn’t it obvious? Everyone needs a hobby and his is coming to a blog with diametrically opposing views and dictating a load of codswallop for his intellectual enjoyment, and our comical relief. Remember, one person’s enjoyment is another person’s hilarity. Loons abound, loons abound.
Not sure who Dan Poole is. He keeps appearing in my spam filter, so he might be someone I banned.
Maybe he is a writer for the Onion newspaper or some other satirical rag.
http://www.theonion.com/
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@ Herneith
Heh… the only thing more entertaining than a dummy with a dictionary is a dummy who reads books by people who have been thoroughly discredited in the REAL academic world and then tries to pass them off as some kind of “higher thinking.”
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@abagond:
“Reparations may not be politically possible now, but neither was outlawing slavery till 1864.”
Slavery, you’ll remember, was outlawed through blood and brute force. A perfectly legitimate use of brute force to be sure, but brute force nonetheless. 600,000 Americans, almost all of them white, died in the Civil War before slavery was outlawed. A similar war will be required if you expect reparations. I’m dead serious about that. And this time all whites will be on the same team.
“According to Islam, from what I understand, 9/11 was a cowardly, immoral act”
Try telling that to Al Queda, the Taliban, Hezbollah, or Hamas. Try telling that to any Muslim country that thinks America bought 9/11 on itself thanks to our meddling in the Middle East. Try telling that to the 8800 people that Muslims kill through terrorist attacks ever single year. Muslims kill more people through terrorism then any other group. Your understanding is incorrect. 9/11 was NOT evil in the eyes of Muslims. And Muslims aren’t the only group of people who don’t think 9/11 was evil. America has enemies in South America, Central America, and Asia who don’t think 9/11 was evil. I dare you to give me a single example of something that is universally evil. Go ahead, take a stab at it! I’m sitting here waiting to shoot it out of the sky.
“The 9/11 hijackers no more represent the Muslim moral consensus than, say, Hitler represents the Christian moral consensus”
So why are you sitting here demanding reparations when the whites who enslaved your ancestors clearly don’t represent the white moral consensus? Oh, that’s right, you have a bone to pick with whites in general. And then you wonder why people call you anti-white. You refuse to own the positions you take. Like right here:
“If I am being tribalisitc then I am being wrong, but you have not given any good examples of that as far as I can see.”
I gave you an example last time and you ignored it. I shall give the same example again with more detail. You argue with a straight face, “to those whites who feel the need to defend their history, my advice is: Don’t. The bad parts should be roundly condemned by any honest person of any race with any sense.”
I’d love to see you defend THIS:
“On invading the town, some of the warriors had found in the Chief’s house several jars of rum, and now the bottle went round with astonishing rapidity. The ferocious and savage dance was then suggested. The war bells and horns had sounded the arrival of the female warriors, who on the storming of a town generally make their entry in time to participate in the division of the human flesh; and as the dead and wounded were ready for the knife, in they came like furies and in the obscene perfect state of nakedness, performed the victorious dance which for its cruelties and barbarities has no parallel.
“Some twenty-five in number made their appearance with their faces and naked bodies besmeared with chalk and red paint. Each one bore a trophy of their cannibal nature. The matron or leader . . . bore an infant babe newly torn from its mother’s womb and which she tossed high in the air, receiving it on the point of her knife. Other Medeas followed, all bearing some mutilated member of the human frame.
“Rum, powder, and blood, a mixture drunk with avidity by these Bacchantes, had rendered them drunk, and the brutal dance had intoxicated them to madness. Each was armed also with some tormenting instrument, and not content with the butchering outside of the town of the fugitive women, they now surrounded the pile of the wounded prisoners, long kept in suspense for the coup de grâce. A ring was formed by the two-legged tigresses, and accompanied by hideous yells and encouraging cry of the men, the round dance began. The velocity of the whirling soon broke the hideous circle, when each one fell on his victims and the massacre began. Men and women fell to dispatching the groaning wounded with the most disgusting cruelties.
“I have seen the tiger pounce on the inoffensive gazelle and in its natural propensity of love of blood, strangle its victim, satiate its thirst, and often abandon the dead animal. But not so with these female cannibals. The living and dying had to endure a tormenting and barbarous mutilation, the women showing more cannibal nature in the dissection of the dead than the stronger sex. The coup de grâce was given by the men, but in one instance the victim survived a few minutes when one of those female furies tormented the agony of the dying man by prostrating herself on his body and there acting the beast of double backs.
“The matron, commander of these anthrophagies, with her fifty years and corpulous body, led the cruelties on by her example. The unborn babe had been put aside for a bonne bouche, and now adorned with a string of men’s genital parts, she was collecting into a gourd the brains of the decapitated bodies. While the disgusting operating went on, the men carved the solid flesh from the limbs of the dead, throwing the entrails aside.
“About noon the butchering was at an end, and a general barbecuing took place. The smell of human flesh, so disgusting to civilized man, was to them the pleasing odor so peculiarly agreeable to a gastronomer …
“The barbecuing over, an anthrophagous repast took place, when the superabundant preserved flesh was packed up in plantain leaves to be sent into the Interior for the warriors’ friends. I am silent on the further cruelties that were practiced this day on the unfortunate infirm and wounded that the different scouting parties brought in during the day, supposing the reader to be sick enough at heart at the above representation.”
http://www.counter-currents.com/2012/10/life-styles-native-and-imposed-2/
That, Julian, was the culture of Native Africans. IE, your descendants. You now have three choices:
1. Defend it.
2. Deny it.
3. Condemn it
If you would like to maintain the credibility of your claim that you’re not a tribalist, than choice 3 is your only option. But we already know you’re not gonna do that. You’ve already said in another post that “there is absolutely nothing wrong with black people.” You would probably dismiss this evil sadistic behavior of YOUR ancestors as a “bad patch of history” and/or “ordinary human failings.” So either you are a moral hypocrite, or you’re a tribalist. If you choose to defend Native African (IE, black) history or deny it, AND if you freely admit that such behavior doesn’t bother you BECAUSE your people did it, then i have ZERO argument against you. But at least we’d be on the same rhetorical and ideological playing field, and we could just agree to disagree. As it stands, you are a moral hypocrite, and you deserve to be called out on your hypocrisy.
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As for everyone else:
@Anne:
“Accusing someone of tribalism while insisting that they, on the other hand, have the right to protect his people.”
Julian has the right to defend his people and every sadistic thing they do. What i ask for is moral and logical consistency. What I was accusing him of is refusing to own his tribalism. I was not condemning tribalism itself. If you take the universalist mindset, then you MUST, by definition, hold all peoples in all nations of all races to the exact same standards of behavior. You CANNOT act like you’re standing on universal morality when you condemn whites and ONLY whites for things like slavery and genocide. The REFUSAL of non-whites like Julian to condemn the EXACT same behavior in non-whites that they condemn in whites makes them contemptible hypocrites. Julian even said right here in this post that “whites are the main evil. That is just how it is. I did not create the world I find myself in. If I were Darfuri, no doubt I would write about the Arabic-speaking Sudanese. If I were Palestinian, it would be the Israelis. Etc.” In other words, Julian himself said that he would condemn whoever the enemy is of the tribe he was born in. Yet, he denies he’s a tribalist.
“Perhaps this person should be more economic with their words and just say that they don’t like people who are not like them.”
But I’d be lying to myself if I said that. I gave up a long time ago trying to explain to people that I don’t have a problem with non-whites JUST because they’re non-white. i know in my heart that I don’t have a problem with non-whites JUST because they are non-white, and that’s all that matters. What I DO have a problem with is any individual or group of people who explicitly target me for who I am; people who target my beliefs, my life style, my faith, and most importantly – not to mention most pertinently – my race. Non-whites like Julian have chosen to target people like me for being white, and they do it under the false discredited pretense that people like them are being targeted for being non-white – or were targeted in the past for being non-white. At worst people like Julian are picking a fight, at best they’re out for revenge. Either way, it directly affects me and the well-being of people like me. Do not expect us to go along with your anti-white crusade. My attitude of non-whites is entirely contingent on how they behave.
@King:
“You emphatically state that morality is NOT universal but is in fact tribal. Yet here you are doggedly attempting to argue your own morality directly to another tribe. HELLO, am I missing something?”
What you’re missing is the fact that Julian, while pretending to be universal with his morality, is in fact tribal. Furthermore, I don’t care if any of y’all think whites have the right to defend themselves or not. I’m not so much telling you what “should be” (normative) as I am telling you “what is” (positive).
“a dummy who reads books by people who have been thoroughly discredited in the REAL academic world”
Kind of like Galileo and Newton were dismissed by the “real academic world” in 1600s amirite? When it comes to the Truth, majority opinion is meaningless. Nobody has actually debunked Taylor, Sobran, Salter, etc based on facts and evidence.
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@ Dan,
What’s a “non-white?” Is the opposite the equivalent of “person/people without colour?”
Is there a reason you consistently refer Blacks/People of Colour as non-white?
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[…] “Whites are not uniquely evil” […]
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As much as I wish that a solution could be found, this one is not going to work well and will lead to much moral hazard – some will get windfalls and some affected parties will get nothing.
But even if this were done, it would not cure racism in the USA. If anything, it will make whites think they have wiped their hands clean and can forget about the whole thing. If any black person cannot make it after that, it certainly has nothing to do with white people or racism (as past racism had been compensated).
What has to be done is to teach Americans, both white and non-white, that the country has been built on the blood, sweat and tears of all its people, living or exterminated, and no one is allowed to forget that. It’s a new paradigm for the country, not one that is based on the founding fathers and white pioneers, but one based on all its people.
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[…] Whites are not uniquely evil. […]
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@Dan Poole: ““Blacks to this day are underpaid.”
The hell you’re not! You get paid WAY MORE then you deserve. ”
This “deserve” talk goes to show that:
PRO-WHITE IS A CODE WORD FOR ANTI-BLACK.
And you say morality is “tribal” … you know what that means, if you accept that? YOUR morality is tribal TOO, so your claims of blacks “deserving” anything mean ONLY something in regards to YOUR tribe, they mean NOTHING with regard to Blacks and so by that logic Blacks are free to disregard them and you can STFU about your “morality”, since all moralities are valid to their own group under a tribalist system which means that to denigrate someone else’s moral is STUPID and CONTRADICTORY. The “denigration” amounts to nothing more than FORCING your will on the other tribe. Now if you moral allows for that, then that’s OK from your pov, but if the other tribe’s moral doesn’t then you should not be the least bit surprised if they react. And any criticism of their moral from your moral is no more or less valid than theirs.
That’s the thing with the philosophy that morality is tribal. That’s where it goes, logically speaking. You have no way to convice anyone else of your moral, because logically, it’s all arbitrary. And nobody has any need to believe it.
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Everybody believes this, my ass. All influential and important anti-racists believe whites are the only evil and only evil. Or at least the lesser and only lesser.
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Actually, maybe not all.
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@Uriel
That actually is not true unless you are on some black supremacy site. Whites interpret anything that is not praising them as them being scum etc. It is either or for them. Particularly YOU and LOM.
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At this point no one cares because we tell you one thing….you believe the other.
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There’s criticizing and then there’s carping. Carping is permanent criticism.
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@Uriel
Not when you are continously doing things to be criticized on.
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You’ll never forgive me if i change, so it’s only downhill for me if i try. By permanent criticism, i mean criticism that will never be forgiven like “Stop moving, you will NEVER have that right.” (not that that’s an example). Moreover, i try not to be dickish or be recklessly lazy.
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Look, i’ll believe you. I’ll stop. Just mean what you say.
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I have a hard time understanding you Uriel.
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^^^ Same here.
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@Uriel
I do mean what I say, but it is quite clear you will always believe what you want.
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have a hard time understanding you Uriel.
Don’t bother. Trying to ‘understand this person is akin to getting brain freeze whilst ingesting an ice cold beverage too quickly. I come across white people like Uriel quite frequently. I went to a Pow Wow yesterday and was sickened by the whites there who were overly obsequious when dealing with the First Nations people or, where there observing them like they were in a zoo. They almost ruined what was a pleasant day. Uriel would have been right at home among these white people. He could have provided comical relief.
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You know what? I’ll answer the questions in the open thread. This is getting off topic.
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I call b.s. on a different account. Whites are not evil, uniquely. As in being white doesn’t magically make one evil, just as not being doesn’t make you automatically non-evil.
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Never mind, re-read the above comments.
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you guys what you think happened in Rwanda is totally different than what you know
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“That actually is not true unless you are on some black supremacy site. Whites interpret anything that is not praising them as them being scum etc. It is either or for them. Particularly YOU and LOM.”
Please, I’ve been reading this site, people here do not just criticize whites they act as if they are responsible for all actions in current history. See speaking neutrally of a group is also a thing. Speaking negatively over and over again is known directly as indirect aggression, and well known to pick on (similar to bullying) or attacking a group. There’s a differece as treating them fairly and targetting them which this site and some of its higher ranked users do. Absorbed in their own delusional world. Just like the joke of an article this is.
“White people need to get over this idea that they are somehow special. They are not. They are just like everyone else. But by putting up this front that they are better than most, they make themselves worse than most – because it means they turn a blind eye to the evil they do.”
Interesting this person writes an article believing all white people believe they do no wrong (which is a psychopathological thing not common amongst just having white skin) and that only they turn a blind eye ot their pasts history. Interesting how the writing even potrays white people in general as more self-important, without possibly knowing the millions of white people in the states.
It’s an attempt at sounding passive aggressive the problem is the full racial intent (racism) is fully obvious. It’d be like if I said “Black people get this idea they are somehow special. They are not. They are just like everyone else. But by putting up this front that they do no wrong, they make themselves worse than most. Because it means they turn a blind eye to the evil they do.”
I’m not even White, but this… This is pathetic racism in its finest. It certainly passive, but the intent is very well clear. Hell even the mention of “White is right mentality pounded into the writer” sounds like a load of bull crap. It also doesn’t excuse the blatent hatred, assumptions being made by the article writer or anything else. It’s sad as a person of color I even have to mention this, anyone defending this should feel just as embarassed as the original writers intention of attacking whites for finding this offensive.I really don’t care if you ran into some caucasion who made you upset. It’s childish and spiteful covered by the writer as “Well I’m only doing it out of White people’s bad intentions” yes, because the intent of this article was not a race bait article at all… Please. Don’t insult my intelligence.
Martin Luther, and other famous visionaries would be rolling in their graves with distaste by this bunk.
Funny thing it mentions evils in the past, but 100 years from now people will look at writings like this online and be disgusted by such racial rhetoric. I hope none forget how pathetic and distasteful it truly is. I know I won’t.
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Inseperabledream
Hate to break it to you, but pointing out acts that whites are responsible for is just that. If a group does wrong over and over again then it will be pointed out as such. Pretending and ignoring that wrong allows said group, whites in this case to believe they are innocent angels with a patch of bad. While still viewing others as bad.
If anything is delusional it is you.
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@ sharinalr
Whaddya want to bet that Inseperabledream is “not white” the same way Lord of Mirkwood is not white?
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I’m a white who attempts to unbrainwash myself.
In the same way Blacks have “white is right” pounded into their heads so do whites. But because whites are unaffected by this construct that makes them blind to the damage it does to POC within Western culture.
As the post says “whites need to get over this idea that they are somehow special”. And some whites attempt to do this by believing that being “color blind” erases racism in society. That if they do away with their “assumptions” racism disappears and then we can all get back to respecting each other.
What it doesn’t take into consideration is that the systemic nature of the State is designed to perpetuate white supremecy. It is institutionalized in all levels made up of all the organizations within government and indoctrinated into the public through public education.
What it comes down to for whites is reseting the white default construct that lens that all things are judged through. It also entails reconstructing the judicial system to one which is truly blind to race and class.
White supremecy needs to be exposed within history. Instead whites history is written from a white centric perpective where every war, every State violent act, was justified for the greater good of society in the name of democracy and justice.
White history emphasizes the civil rights era as the turning point towards righting the racist Jim Crow and promising greater protections towards POC. Instead the industrial prison complex expanded, mass incarceration began and Black on Black crime became the excuse As small percentage of Blacks, who were able to make it through the educational system, were.rewarded seats and recognition within the upper echelons of the white racial hierarchy. They are well aware that to remain their, that they must distance themselves from their roots and embrace the system that interfers with the rest of their bothers and sisters in attain upward mobility.
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@Inseperabledream
If you had bothered to read this article and comments you would have found this excellent comment by Brotha Wolf that neatly rebuts the self-serving Euro-drivel you just dished out: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/whites-are-not-uniquely-evil/#comment-130890
If you were truly “not even White…[a]person of color…” you would know the difference between expressions of anger and expressions of “hatred”. You would not feel a need to come to a site where anti-racists express their opinions, learn from one another and support each other and unload White Supremacist garbage.
Heck, you couldn’t even remember MLK’s name.
Other articles that apply to the type of comment you left include:
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Solitaire
ROFL.
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Inseperabledream said (with bolding added by me):
@ Inseperabledream
This post is not about ALL White people or ONLY White people, but it is certainly about YOU: your “only they” uses the very straw man argument that this post is about!
This post is not meant as an attack on White people. It is to counter an argument that SOME White people bring up, REPEATEDLY. Like they cannot help themselves. Like what you just did. You may not be White, but you are certainly seem to be Whitewashed.
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@Inseperabledream
Seems I duplicated a link in the previous comment. The fourth link should have been: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/how-to-tell-if-a-commenter-is-white/
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Man dont matter race,color,country,age dont matter if white,hispanic,asian,black, every race can be criminal
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Well said. This post is spot on. It’s amazing how hard it is for us Europeans and Settler-Colonialists (“whites”) to be honest about ourselves. You nail it in the last paragraph- “…by putting up this front that they are better than most, they make themselves worse than most – because it means they turn a blind eye to the evil they do.”
There are many remedies to this, but it all begins with realising you personally have a problem, then begin your journey of self-awareness, growth and enlightenment. But it has been and remains for me, a very lonely journey in my settler-colonial society of Australia, where we genocided up to 99% of our First People.
What will enrage the apologists/denialists even more is that I think the Global South and “Axis of Resistance” (Eg Russia, China Iran etc) are doing a better job and are closer to self awareness and reality than we are. Good for them. I hope we can join them.
A book that might help whites wake up to their blindness and begin their journey is, Deceit and Self-Deception by Robert Trivers. “Fooling ourselves, the better to fool others”. Sums a lot up.
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