Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old boy in Sanford, Florida who was walking back from the store talking to his girlfriend on his phone, was seen as “a real suspicious guy” by George Zimmerman, who was following him in his car. Zimmerman’s proof:
This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. He’s just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hand in his waistband. Something’s wrong with him. He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?
Send the police? Is he serious? Yes. He gets out of his car, follows Trayvon, gets in a fight and winds up shooting the unarmed Trayvon dead.
And now, a month later, others are painting Trayvon as bad and threatening too. Not just right-wing bloggers and the talking heads of Fox News but even the Sanford police!
As Trayvon’s mother put it:
They killed my son, now they’re trying to kill his reputation.
Some of what they say:
- Trayvon had thug pictures of himself on Facebook. Wrong. These came from Michelle Malkin’s Twitchy.com to show that the press was hiding the True Trayvon. Except that they were not: the Facebook pictures were of another Trayvon Martin, from Georgia, one that fit all too nicely into right-wing ideas of black males and “thugs”. Twitchy admitted its mistake.
- Trayvon dressed “like a wannabe gangster”. Wrong. According the Geraldo Rivera, “everyone that ever stuck up a convenience store” wore a hoodie. He needs to get out more. Tons of people wear hooded sweatshirts. Most are unarmed.
- Trayvon swung at a bus driver. Wrong. Based on Wagist’s analysis of tweets made to a different Trayvon Martin.
- Trayvon was a drug dealer. Wrong. Made up as a reason for Trayvon’s school suspension. Pushed by right-wing blogs Riehl World and Wagist. No proof given.
- Trayvon was suspended from school for drugs. Maybe true, but beside the point. This comes from the Sanford police. They say he was suspended “after being found with an empty marijuana baggie.” Hardly against the law, but apparently against the school’s zero-tolerance drug policy. Even if true it has nothing to do with the case and the Sanford police know it: they tested Trayvon’s body for drugs.
- Trayvon was disrespectful to Mr. Zimmerman. Maybe true, but beside the point. According to Zimmerman’s black friend Joe Oliver, Zimmerman would have spared Trayvon’s life had he said the magic words: “I’m staying with my parents.” It is unclear why Trayvon should say anything like that to a strange man following him at night.
Even if all of these were true they still do not excuse the shooting. So why do people say this stuff? Because American society has trained them to stereotype and demonize and lie about blacks to maintain their own image as good people and a good and fair society.
Source: ThinkProgress.org
See also:
Thank you, Abagond, for clearing this up. It’s the epitome of disrespect to try to paint a dead young man into some kind of thug that somehow deserved to be shot. It’s sickening.
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It’s just so wrong. They would never do this if the teen was a white boy named “Tray” visiting his parents while wearing a hoodie. They can’t prove he did anything wrong by being there, so they keep pulling out more disrespectful and racist things to justify his killing. It’s ridiculous.
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I didn’t know about that Michelle Malkin’s Twitchy.com mistake. That thug picture has been circulate everywhere. It’s a bit sad people didn’t catch it sooner. Do we all look that similar???
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@ Someguy,
No, but people like them think that one black guy must equal another, and they don’t need to actually care about how they portray or think about you.
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@Abagond TY for putting the truth out there.
“Trayvon was suspended from school for drugs.” The police actually said that was a “leak” and that could cost the offending officer to be suspended. The police are taking their time in order to get their ducks in a row. They will pull anything to save their precious Zimmerman, even demonizing a young who was unarmed and without a criminal record. It is ridiculous.
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As commenters here & at other blogs, media have said, ALL parents teach their kids from the minute they can talk & walk about “Stranger Danger.” Even as adults we hold onto those lessons. I’m in my 30s & I would NEVER stop to give a questioning stranger personal info on me or my family or the opportunity to snatch me for god knows what purpose. Get outta here with that! Rapists/pedophiles prey on teenage boys too.
Trayvon Martin owed Zimmerman no justification as to his right to exist/walk/run free. Zimmerman owed Trayvon Martin the right to exist/walk/run w/o fearing for his physical health & his life.
The DoJ is looking into this & rightly so.
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@SomeGuy:
Nope, and this is what’s appalling. I knew I loathed Michelle Malkin ages ago. Still do. She’s what’s called a coconut. A sellout.
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—
Trayvon swung at a bus driver. Wrong. Based on Wagist’s analysis of tweets made to a different Trayvon Martin.
—
I’ve wanted to read the wagist post and it’s here: http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer
Are you sure “no_limit_nigga” isn’t Martin? It looks like it is.
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Why are the Sanford police making it out to be Trayvon’s this thug? So what if he had an empty marijuana baggie or even smoke the stuff prior. You know how many teens smoke pot? Hell, why not lock up every teen and throw away the key! Trayvon was suspended for drugs, and he did NOT deserve death.
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@ leigh
They probably were so desperate to smear his name, they used anything they thought could help their case. They most likely believed weed wouldn’t go over well with the Baby Boomers. I say good luck with that one! Many are former hippies!
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I wear hoodies a lot. Hoodies are so comfortable. I like how I can just get up and go. I guess that means I have a propensity to commit crimes. Watch out now! You’ve got a criminally minded, 5’3″ Asian woman on your hands! Geraldo needs to get a grip.
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I hate how the media is making Trayvon as the bad guy and George the hero. It’s b.s and they know it. I’ve known plenty of kids who smoke weed and still were good people. Always want to stereotype a black man in a negative light and a white man being positive but happens to be a felon. So who is really the bad guy?
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The racism is so blatant. I know for a fact that they are white teens who wear hoodies, smoke pot, or have been suspended from school. But when you’re white you can do those things without being deserving of death in the court of public opinion. Black people do not have the same kind of intrinsic worth that white people have in this society. That’s why so many black people exert themselves to “achieve” and “become something”. But they may still be arrested for entering their own home like Professor Gates was. Racism is not a fault of black people, it is a construction of this society.
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I am convinced that no one would have even heard about the whole “weed” thing if Trayvon were white.
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Abagond,
In the same way that Zimmerman’s prior arrest is consideration for his possible attitude in the absence of definitive knowledge as to what happened, so would be ancillary information about Martin. I would agree that using incorrect or falsified material is a serious breach of journalistic integrity.
I’m surprised that people would still be repeating the simplistic narrative of “deserved to die”. Culpability for the incident would seem to come down to how the physical altercation began between Zimmerman and Martin, and whether or not evidence corroborates Zimmerman’s claim that he feared serious injury or death unless deadly force was used.
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Ace,
I’m certain too. If Trayvon was white and if there was “weed” attack to this story, it wouldn’t be an issue. But the police are trying hard to justify and cover up with own insanity and the media is helping them do it.
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“Trayvon had thug pictures of himself on Facebook. Wrong. These came from Michelle Malkin’s Twitchy.com to show that the press was hiding the True Trayvon.”
Actually, the press ~was~ hiding the “true trayvon”. Some of the pictures they were showing were obviously taken several years ago when he was about 12.
.
Michelle Malkin admitted her mistake and apologized. That’s class. I like her.
Trayvon dressed “like a wannabe gangster”. Wrong. “
Geraldo Rivera may be on Fox but he is, and has always been, a left-winger. The only person he speaks for is himself.
“Trayvon swung at a bus driver. Wrong.”
“Trayvon was a drug dealer. Wrong.”
Do you have references?
Even if all of these were true they still do not excuse the shooting.
I agree. The only questions that matter are who attacked whom and whether Trayvon was a credible threat. And yet you and your readers have been crying about skittles, Trayvon being followed & whether Zimmerman has ever been arrested. Completely irrelevant.
So why do people say this stuff? Because American society has trained them to stereotype and demonize and lie about blacks to maintain their own image as good people.
No. Because you and other bigots of color (BoC) have been smearing Zimmerman for 2 weeks. And now you want to cry when it goes the other way. Don’t be such a hypocrite.
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Good post once again. I think it is very revealing that they use another guy to confuse and smear the victim, a bit like if they had come up with a bootlegging gangster named Kennedy in 1963 after Dallas and claimed that yeap, heres our man (there were several bootleggers named Kennedy in 1920’s, including JFK’s own daddy).
And the “empty marijuana baggie”. One DEA agent once said in an interview that the easiest way to boost up your anti drug arrest records would be to go to any college or university and start making tours on campuses. For some reason it is never done and if it is, those students get tickets or slap on the wrist, where as any black individual met on the street with minimal amount of marijuana gets arrested and sent to court. Instead of a ticket they also usually go to jail for it.
As for the weed, think about all those hippies. Why they are not in jailsin droves? I mean it is not a big secret what bubbles in their bongs…
This whole “accuse the victim” is disgusting and so revealing. It is connected to the “lets turn Zimmerman into hispanic” thing. At first he was white, he himself said he was white, and then PUFF he turned into hispanic and brown and non racist because he is not racially pure white etc yadayadayadayada.
They try aything that would cover the simple fact that a grown up white man shot an innocent black kid dead. They present rumours as facts. speard rumours, use killers statements as facts, show pictures of wrong guys, do this and that simply to confuse and trick the audiences out of whom the jury will be selected later on. They cover their tracks, they try to hide the fact that this killer had attacked the police and yet had a gun, that the cops did not care what had happened at the scene etc.
@randy:
Zimmerman WAS arrsted for violence before, he had a criminal record. Trayvon was not and had none. And yet, somehow, the kid became a criminal i the white narrative! Tell me that is just an accident!
Using false information, false images, wrong pictures, rumours etc. as facts is not poor journalism. It is simply propaganda. It has nothing to do with journalism. I know for a fact that if you have extremely controversial information you must confirm it from TWO independent sources before you put it out there. That is what they did in Watergate story.
Did they do it here? No. Did you do it? No. You and others just repeated open lies as facts never bothering to check them out. Why? Because they were convinient, they enforced your own ideas, they protected the killer, they white washed the murder.
Blame the victim. It is an old way. Even today women who get raped are painted as loose, suspicious, promiscuous etc. “She should have not been there”, “She was wearing the wrong clothes” etc.
And what is this obsession with clothes in USA? A Hoodie? I have dozen hoodies and use them regulary. Does that make me a suspicious person, thuggish? Just like I said in one previous posting: after the Columbine the school acted fast and forbade all the black coats and trench coats. Like, only people who wear those are killers.
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Here is what makes me so angry about this case; a white man shoots and kills and burns 16 Afghans most of them children and he suffers from PSTD. In fact, America was more than ready to come up with excuses for this man who has taken away the lives of entire families. His wife is even saying its not possible that she killed him. Boo hoo!
If an Afghan man walked into an American household and killed 16 Americans, mostly kids, the guy would be facing the electric chair as it were.
GZ KILLED a young man. It doesn’t matter which part of the world one lives in, this is a matter that should be decided by the court on whether it was self-defense and therefore manslaughter or whether it was murder. It should not be decided by the police! That’s BS.
Now, American media is falling all over itself to prove that this young man was just a thug and bloody deserved to die! After all gangstas like him are better dead, right? Urgh! Am so mad and yet you have the right to have a #kony2012 video? Take several seats please.
The hypocrisy of American society is outstanding. Life is life. No one has the right to take away someone’s life regardless of how “bad” or ‘thug” the other person is. And if you do, you must go on trial. THE END.
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@ Destructure,
You realize that Zimmerman was caught saying bigoted things, harassing people of color and had an assault charge, right? People were right to call him a bigot. Actions speak louder than words, even though HIS words proved him to be bigot far before his actions did.
It’s not hypocritical, people tried to demonize Trayvon since day one, they just found more and more classless ways to do it.
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Ace
I guess it’s all good then isn’t it? So stop crying about it now that little Tray Tray is getting his.
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From the great state that brought you TexasSparkle…
http://dailytexanonline.com/blog/matter-opinion/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-and-case-yellow-journalism
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sam
“Zimmerman WAS arrsted for violence before, he had a criminal record. Trayvon was not and had none. And yet, somehow, the kid became a criminal i the white narrative! “
Then let’s talk about the “black narrative”. Zimmerman doesn’t have a criminal record. Trayvon has just as many felonies on his record as Zimmerman.
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@ destructure,
“Little Tray Tray”
Really? His name is “Trayvon”. Your really that racist and tactless that you have to mock a murdered teen? Your that classless?
How did he “get his”? By walking around in an area Zimmerman didn’t approve? By wearing a hoodie millions of other 17 year-olds of all colors wear? By having tea and skittles? By being on the phone? For being black?
Trayvon did not have felonies on his record and was a good student, no matter what lies you and yours make up. Fortunately for everyone else, reality doesn’t shift whenever you can’t take responsibility for the loss of life and potential your views cause.
Oh, and by the way:
It’s sort of hard to demonize a guy who was murdered by a guy with racist tendencies, an assault record, and a history of instability, probably why people who try keep falling on their butts.
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It was to be expected, the thuggification of TM. I hope GZ gets brought to trial. The trolls will continue with their lame excuses, what’s the point in arguing with them? If just to play with them like toddlers at daycare.
R.I.P Trayvon Martin you will be remember and no you didn’t deserve to die while minding your own business on your way back from 711.
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@Ace
He broke Zimmerman’s nose and then smashed his head into the ground whilst Zimmerman was screaming for help. The skittles have nothing to do with it.
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@ James,
So says the police and Zimmerman. However, sources that aren’t dependent on forcing a racial stereotype note that Zimmerman planned to follow Trayvon (and is recorded in saying such), planned on not letting him “get away” like the “others”, and he obviously was wiling to pull a gun instead of calling the cops (which he would not have done had Trayvon been white).
Even if he did do what your claiming:
Are you saying that Trayon should be shot for it ? Especially considering Zimmerman was warned not to follow Trayon, has a history of violence and a criminal record?
Should people use bad information to slander a person who was killed? I would like to think that, in a society that prides itself on the freedom of ALL of it’s citizens, people wouldn’t dig into my past after I was murdered for information that has nothing to do with my death while not even examining the criminal record of my killer.
Say what you want, but you can’t paint Zimmerman into a victim by using that logic, despite the typical tendency to make excuses for bigots who think a gun gives them a badge to police black people like they are big damned heroes.
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@james:
I was once hit on the head with a bench on a street fight. Should I have killed that man? I was once hit on my face with a shovel by my sister. Should I have killed her too? My brother once kicked me on the face so that my eye closed up, nose bled, lips were split. Perhaps I should have killed him? I was once knocked out cold in the ring. According to you, that would have been reason good enough to kill my opponent, right?
As for poor Zimmerdimmer, he was pretty lucky it was just a teenager who he went after, if the kid indeed was able to punch him few times. I know few guys who would’ve made mincemeat out of this selfpointed robocop wannabe and stuffed his pretty little gun up in to somewhere were the sun does not shine.
As for smashing the head… How many fractures there were in mr Zimmermans skull? Was his nose broken or was it, like it was earlier, just bloodied? Just tell me, do not speculate or repeat the lies, how many bones were broken in mr Zimmermans body?
I’ve said it before, I have seen more damaged individuals in the boxing ring that this child murdering coward. And who had the gun and why? Perhaps nice mr Zimmerman just wanted to tickle people with it?
We still do not know who was screaming on that tape. FBI will try to find out. What you got is mr Zimmermans, a murderer who is trying to avoid the death penalty, and his protectors statements. Nothing else.
We, on the other hand, have the tapes where mr Zipperhead is told, not just once but many times, to stay put and wait for the police, where mr Zippodippo goes after the kid breathing hard etc. We have a dead kid and a grown man with a gun. We have a dead kid shot by the same man, And you think that this dead kid is the guilty one here?
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@sam
Nicely put. To copy-paste a comment that I made to our Dog No.1 yesterday: I can call you all kinds of names, harass you, and when you get angry and react I’ll shoot you “in self-defence”. This is the logic of the reductionist closedminded degenerate.
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42% of US adults have used cannabis at least once, according to the World Health Organisation. It’s amazing that demonizing someone for something that common actually holds any weight with people.
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@ Sam,
Very well put!
@ anglesanddimensions,
I think it’s been done through the entirety of US history. The common formula is: “Racist calls people names, harasses them, and insults them. PoC finally angrily, racist gets them punished or killed for it, then the PoC is blamed for the whole altercation.”, the only difference now is that the law doesn’t outwardly protect that kind of behavior anymore, but they still pull their feet when they have to punish it.
@ Tea, Earl Grey, Hot.
What I find amazing is that, despite that fact, people still find it easier to demonized a murdered teen for possibly smoking cannabis instead of the man who killed him.
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Thank you , abagond, you have really cleared up some things about this.
Good points Sam
Marijuana and its illegalisation , since 1937 , has been used by the authorities to control and incarcerate black and brown people
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I’m tired of this.
I have no more strength left.
America can no longer hide its racism under the ‘good, decent, Christian’ facade. I say, it’s about damn time.
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Where was the national outrage during the Roderick Scoot shooting?
Black male neighbor shoots 15 year old white kid in back – shooter found innocent – and probably was innocent.
The white kid seems to have been in trouble like Trayvon. I don’t know much about the case but it shows clearly the double standard shown by media when dealing with white verses black “victims”. Black victim/white shooter = national outrage and24/7 media circus. Your cries of racism are a bit like the Boy Who Cried Wolf – be careful.
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@ truthbetold,
People can’t sit there and say it doesn’t happen this era, and they cannot claim that the typical microaggressions that people of color have to contend with have no harmful affect (because while Trayvon is the true and only victim, there is no doubt that Zimmerman would not have felt “threatened” enough to shoot Trayvon if he didn’t believe in a viewpoint that constantly told him blacks were “dangerous”). Their need to still employ stereotypes and demonize Trayvon was a failed attempt to flail and find a way to keep the injustice of the situation quiet. However, it is only bringing that “under the surface” racism back into the public sphere.
It’s one thing to be killed. It’s another to be killed, have your body held for days in a morgue like an unknown criminal, and then have your life demonized and reduced to stereotypes by people who couldn’t even bother to get your story and photo right. Everything that is human in us finds that appalling.
Racists can sleep better at night thinking a “hero” put down a “dangerous negro”, instead of knowing a bully with a gun took the life of an American teen for “walking while black”. Their viewpoints denied a teen the right to exist, a family the right to face their child’s killer, and a nation’s right to trust their “protectors” to be unwilling to be corrupted by bigotry.
I personally think that Zimmerman needs to be made an example of. Treat him like Trayvon was treated after his death. He should have every detail of his life put on the forefront, he should be treated like a criminal, because (UNLIKE Trayvon) he is a murderer. He shouldn’t be catered to, like the viewpoints that allowed him to do what he did are . If people didn’t cater to racists and the drivel they spit out, people wouldn’t be so quick to justify murdering black teenagers because they wear a hoodie and walk in a nice neighborhood.
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I have come to believe that the reason for the “thuggification” is to taint any grand jury that will convene to consider arresting GZ, it is very hard to undo all the lies that some ppl want to use to justify the police and GZ;s actions.
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Agabond, excellent post.
I would add that, in a trial, character evidence is generally inadmissible, regardless of its truth or lack thereof.
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Brahams,
Be careful? Unfortunately, people rarely take cries of racism as seriously as they should, so what are you threatening, reprisal?
That case is very different. Nice try, but:
1. There was more than one burglar involved.
2. they were actively committing a crime AT NIGHT,
3. Didn’t claim to put their hands up until they were on trial.
4. The young man wasn’t kept in a morgue for days while his family got the run around .
5. They outnumbered the Roderick Scott, and therefore were a threat.
6. Again, committing a series of break ins AT NIGHT.
While the death of that young man is both tragic and avoidable (and should be punished accordingly), unlike Trayvon, they were actually committing crime, were not followed and stalked for some time before they were confronted, and were not portrayed as thugs. Also, the killer was arrested, went to trial, and never claimed to be innocent. He also didn’t act like a vigilante who thought white boys were all universally a threat to him.
Very different from a young man walking on the phone ALONE with a hoodie on armed with only skittles and tea.
By the way:
Racists made their bed, they need to sleep in it. When you have a history of hunting down black people for walking and other “minor offenses”, you don’t deserve the luxury of not having your treatment of them watched closely. They’re proud of their agenda, they should accept the consequences of it.
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@ Brahams,
Sorry, this didn’t show up in my post either.
I’d recommend using a source that doesn’t have an obvious bias, in that case supporting weapon use and self defense without repercussions. I get the feeling that site would support Zimmerman in this case for the same reason it supported Scott.
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@ Ace
Since whites will not and can not adhere to ANYTHING we say about them, except praise, perhaps a white face will bring this to a broader scope.
I cringe when whites justify black murder. And shake my head when they gather for a candlelight vigil at a JonBenet Ramsey lookalike.
Considering that whites, at large, have commited more crimes, at such a massive level, and they still fear us…it’s enough to make me want to go mad. The craigslist killer, Dahmer, Bernie Madoff and countless wall street bankers, brokers and dealers have all worn three piece suits, fisherman’s sweaters and argyles. Yet we are demonic for sweatsuits with hoodies. Where is the demonization of white male pederasts? Why doesn’t that stick?
Where is the outcry and the demands to protect the children from these monsters?
(According to the Survey of Inmates of State Correctional Facilities by the U.S. Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics, the following statistics have been recorded concerning the characteristics of offenders who violate and assault children.
* Those inmates who were convicted of committing violent acts against children were more like to have been white, a percentage of nearly 70%, than any other race.
* White inmates were nearly three times more likely to have victimized a child than black inmates. )
I’m tired, Ace.
Tired of this shite.
Tired of my race being villianized when all we ever wanted was to be left alone in our mother country. I slowly began to realize who most American whites were around college. My eyes were opened when I entered the workforce.
Now, I’m blinded by the harsh truth.
Whites hate us.
They hate our skin, hair, face (even though they desperately want to copy our features), they hate our existence. We force them to see the truth about who they are. And they hate us for it.
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This background digging isn’t far from a satirical comedy to me. Arguing with these folks is like debating grade-school kids. I’m keeping my distance from here on out and hope for some sort of sensible resolution.
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Thanks for this useful info, Abagond, it clears up several things for me, and it makes it clear that Trayvon Martin’s body has been exhumed and is currently going through a high-tech lynching. So much for the paranoid-Right’s claims about the “liberal media.”
@ch555x, I agree, and on top of that, why even engage with blind, damaged a-holes like the ones who show up here and try to argue that GZ is innocent, and worse yet, that TM’s murder is somehow his own damn fault? Arguing that way makes it clear that a person is damaged and blind, and is never going to even see, let alone acknowledge, something that contradicts their fearful, deep-seated fantasies.
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I feel a deep well of despair when I see that picture. He seems like a decent kid there. Full of curiosity and opinions. A kid.
It’s tragic race relations in this country are so catastrophic that this disaster is political.
I hope his parents and friends don’t suffer to much. And Trayvon. No one should have to die, and certainly not like this. Ah, but for a time machine.
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This is nothing but a lose for all. White and black. The shame of it all is that kids today had nothing to do with all of the of the past ill feeling between the two colors. Its also sad that we are driven by a media that uses this type of sadness to produce rage. Community activists throw fire on pain and before a case can be even studied its decided. We seem to be forgetting there are many other races in the United States not just black and white. We seem to be celebrating black everything to try to make up for what others did 50-150 years ago. We celebrate the life of musicians that have had lives that non of us would see as respectable, we do not celebrate other races because today we are only concerned with one and the reason why that is? its so easy to enrage them because of the past? I don’t know??This was not a racial thing. Was it a stereotyping thing? Probably so !! If a Mexican was walking through a place that was closed off to the public with a hood on an acting weird would this have occurred. Probably so! But if a white kid was walking through with a hood on acting weird and didn’t like being followed and decided to hit a person in the nose and fight him to the ground and this was a black security guard protecting himself, what would these community activists be saying– nothing , this would not even be reported other than in the immediate area as a death. This is not about this boy this is about using these concerned people and enraging them. This is a huge lose to these parents etc. but maybe they should be blaming themselves equally, but if they did, this huge demonstration would be done. This was a dual mistake and a tragedy but to turn this into black and white is destroying this country and that is exactly what your politician needs. Its not for you. I so wish this did not happen and maybe the police didn’t screw this up. Sometimes if a white man is dead the criminal is not charged for a long time if the evidence is complicated and if its warranted. I know growing up as a black skinned person was tough,unfair etc….. in the past ,but how can this help by making it a black and white thing???? Its obvious- its not supposed to help.
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Powerful 500 words. Thanks for posting. Needs to be read widely.
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abagond–
Where is the proof that the pictures bloggers have been showing of Trayvon Martin come from a different one’s facebook and he lives in Georgia. Conveintly for them the Sanford Trayvon Martin’s family had his facebook and twitter taken down yesterday or the day before.
This picture of Trayvon Martin for example sure looks like an older version of the 13 yo TM that the Martin family’s lawyer has gotten the media to run repeatedly, making him look far to small and angelic to beat up Zimmerman.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/
The blurry picture in which TM is making obscene finger gestures (fuck you ones) to the camera may well be someone different than the TM in Sanford FL. That one doesn’t particularly look like an older than 13 version of the shot TM.
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@ace And that’s exactly what I was worried about – the whole line of thinking that goes like this: “Let us sacrifice Zimmerman on the altar of Society, so that we can ignore the underlying issues of our justice system.” Namely, the conviction rates of Black defendants and the “Benefit of the Doubt” that seems to be missing in their cases.
The focus of “Fuck That Guy” in regard to Zimmerman possibly having reasonable doubt, rather than “What about all the times Black people wouldn’t have been sent to jail if they’d had the same standards applied to them?” is kind of disappointing, but since it won’t fit on a t-shirt or make for a good sound byte, we probably won’t be hearing it as much.
I guess at the end of the day I’d prefer to see this kid’s legacy be a change in the way we think about such things instead of mere revenge.
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@Brahams, you’ve really missed the point. And to what end? To prove some baseless notion of a double standard and how “reverse racist” black people are or how biased the “liberal” the media is? I’m calling BS on that. Fortunately, Ace has pointed out some of the glaring differences between what happened in the Roderick Scott case and this one with George Zimmerman…except, perhaps, the most important one. RODERICK SCOTT WAS ACTUALLY ARRESTED — TAKEN INTO CUSTODY — AND PUT ON TRIAL. For MURDER. The case was fully investigated and prosecuted, and Scott was ultimately acquitted. Whether or not you agree with the outcome, the case was still followed according to protocol. Zimmerman’s case, though? Not so much. And that is part of the outrage.
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@ grin and bear it,
My thoughts exactly. It would be different if they actually acted like a crime had taken place here .
@ Mary simple,
That has to be one of the most self-serving “concern-troll” posts I have ever had the displeasure to read. First of all, white victims are often put on pedestals purely because their white and “innocent”. They get the majority of the media attention, the only reason why Trayvon does now is because of the effort of his family and friends, along with black bloggers who’ve kept the story on the main page.
Don’t pretend to act like you care about the family, let alone “educate” us on what we should feel or what the family is feeling when you can’t even grasp why people here are upset in the first place. And don’t even say the “past is the past”, we aren’t obligated to just view things through a race-blind lens while young black people are being shot down like dogs purely for being black and “threatening”, especially not because you’ve just “educated” us on how to feel.
Trayvon was followed, shot and killed by a racist man. He was not “acting weird”. He was on the phone. And last time I checked, black people are allowed to be upset when their children die and want the man who killed them responsible, just like white people are.
Why the hell should the family be “blaming themselves” too when they’re the ones who lost their son?
Just…I don’t know. Just think about everything that is wrong about what you just said.
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Assassinating the character of a murder victim is an all-time low. I’m sickened, but not surprised…
I have 3 different hoodies and wear them a lot, particularly in the fall and spring – the local temperature during those seasons can vary from 35 degrees (F) in the mornings, to 65 – 70 degrees (F) in the late afternoons. They are very comfortable.
I guess some people feel that I deserve to be shot for trying to dress warmly. The joggers I see in the early mornings and evenings need to watch out as well – they wear hoodies! Skateboarders and bike messengers, too! By the gawds, I’m fucking surrounded by criminals – myself included!!!!! 🙄
[sarcasm off]
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Check this out:
http://www.katu.com/news/national/Lawmaker-chastised-for-wearing-hoodie-in-House-144669905.html
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I am a white woman. I know I could go out in a hoodie, be a drug dealer, be suspended from school for drug use, swing at a bus driver and post “thug” pictures of myself on facebook and nobody would shoot me for it.
Of course, it also helps I live in England, where guns are far less readily available.
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sepultura13:
The evidence suggests that Martin was shot after punching Zimmerman in the nose, climbing on top of him, then slamming his head into the pavement. Were you to do that to an armed person, you might get shot.
I can’t tell if the people saying “shot for wearing a hoodie” are simply repeating a tagline, or else are somehow unable to employ critical thinking to this incident.
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Several of your facts are unsupported Abagond. I guess it shouldn’t surprise me though. This is a blog where the majority of posters have been so quick to convict Zimmerman, despite not knowing the details. I’ve said this in other websites, that it is very possible that George Zimmerman may have been justified in shooting Trayvon Martin, because there are that many holes in the picture, yet you and the national media in general flocked onto this the second the words ‘white man’ and dead black teenager’ were uttered. There have been too many inconsistencies in the media’s side, and in your side, for me or for anyone really, to take your arguments seriously.
You weren’t there, so you don’t know what happened. You don’t know the facts. For all you know, like I said earlier, Zimmerman may have been justified. We don’t know who started the fight. We don’t know what occurred, but instead of just letting the facts come out, (I see shades of Tawana Brawley here) you’ve already convicted Zimmerman. Its sick, really. If Zimmerman were black and Trayvon were white, you’d likely be complaining about the racist injustice of condemning a black man before the facts were out.
http://artisticexpression.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/the-murder-of-trayvon-martin-it-isnt-as-simple-as-black-white/
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@ Big Boss
That Blog post you linked doesn’t make your point look favorable. In fact, it does the opposite. There are several glaring errors in that post, which basically states erroneous statistics and straight out opinion.
Strange how you picked a Black/Hispanic man with a fetish for White women to back you up.
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@ Randy
Yes never question the white man’s right to shoot the black man. He is 100% justified under the circumstance of the law to use deadly force if he feels that he is threatened. The law covers all contingencies and rules out the white man’s culpability. Because he has a right to his gun and to use it. So dont tread on him. Not even when he goes poaching for Black lives.
Beyond the murder of Trayvon, this is story is about white privilege. Whites do not want to give up their right to treat members of other ethnicities, especially Blacks, with whatever means they decide is necessary.
That was the course of Zimmerman’s stalking of Trayvon. That is the course of your continued presence, along with the other StormFront trolls.
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That blog post was mine, and yeah, it didn’t really have anything to do with what I posted here today. I just wanted some extra traffic. 🙂 Anyway, that isn’t really what THIS particular post is about. Its funny how you completely ignored my actual comment on this blog.
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I find it futile to argue against these trolls seeing as how they’ve made up what we laughingly call their minds. I will say that no matter what, in the end demonizing a youth after his tragic and horrendous murder is beyond cruel. It’s the epitome of disrespect no matter how anyone tries to justify it.
These trolling-ass fools should be ashamed of defending a killer and excusing the death of a child, but it just goes to show you where their hearts are really at I guess.
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The evidence suggests that Martin was shot after punching Zimmerman in the nose, climbing on top of him, then slamming his head into the pavement. Were you to do that to an armed person, you might get shot.
Evidence from who Randy? The police? Zimmerman? The Media? Who said that it was Trayvon who punched Zimmerman? Zimmerman. Who “corrected” witnesses, didn’t arrest Zimmerman, not even for questioning, and made a complete mess of the investigation? The police. Who tried to turn Trayvon into a stereotypical thug in an apparent attempt to excuse this murder in the public eye? The media.
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@ Abagond
I often wondered if most whites feel bad, you know, like a human should, about this thuggification of a dead boy. What if it was their boy who got shot? But reading these comments here answers my question.
By the way, a little off topic, where were these trollers when we discussed Sean Bell and Ramarley Graham? And why, oh why, were most whites willing to commit OJ to the death penalty WITHOUT knowing all the “facts”?
I’m sickened.
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What are you talking about here? The only side that has their mind made up already is yours. I’m impartial. I’m objective and willing to see both sides of the story. The problem here is that nothing is clear right now. We don’t know what actually happened, so to prematurely jump to a conclusion already is immature. I’m not saying Zimmerman is innocent. I have never said that. Neither have I said that Trayvon deserved to be shot. We simply do not know enough of what happened to make a definitive declaration.
I don’t care about the “gangster’ photos that have been posted about him, because they in no way effect my decision. If I mention them (which I haven’t until now) it’d be merely to point out the media’s obvious slant, initially trying to portray Trayvon as a squeaky clean kid, which we have learned that he wasn’t. But that doesn’t matter and it has no bearing on this case.
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@sepultra13,
GO GO BOBBY RUSH!
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@ Big Boss
You’re right, so let me address your post here.
The way I think most reasonable people see it, who support Trayvon, is that there have been far too many “oopsies” coming out of the Zimmerman camp. Unlawfully leaked records, mislabeled photos, mysterious witnesses, etc.. The whole matter looks suspicious. It has a feel to it, like a cover-up. Whether this is true or not, who knows? No one has all the facts. However, it’s only human to infer meaning to whatever information is available.
Furthermore, not that you have done this yourself, but there are some that just take Zimmerman’s word as gold as to what exactly happened, rather than seeing the obvious conflict of interest. This I find a bit racially suspect.
Didn’t mean to snap at you initially, it’s just the troll activity is been fairly brisk lately.
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@Big Boss
We simply do not know enough of what happened to make a definitive declaration.
A grown man shot and killed a young unarmed teen. What more do you need?
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Big Boss,
What you’re also conspicuously “not saying” is the least contentious thing there is to say about all of this– that since one person shot and killed another unarmed person, the killer should’ve been immediately arrested. Your not saying even that exposes both the lie of your claim to impartiality and where your true sympathies (and antipathies) lie.
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A grown man shot and killed a young unarmed teen. What more do you need?
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@ Brothawolf,
Honestly. Keep going with the truth. It will knock them off their feet.
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Brothawolf—
Two eye witnesses, one named John who didn’t want to give his last name to the media on whose property the altercation took place, and a 13 yo boy saw Trayvon wearing a hoodie straddling Zimmerman who was pinned on the ground, saw him bashing GZ’s head on the concrete a number of times, saw him repeatedly punching him in the face with no signs of stopping while all the while Zimmerman was screaming for help repeatedly. Then John locked his front door and ran upstairs to call 911 and heard a gunshot on the way. No eyewitness to the fight said anything different.
An ear not eye witness Mary Cutcher who was obviously very biased against Zimmerman and in favor of Trayvon in ways that should become apparent, heard the scream for help which she called whining and was sure it “must be” coming from “little boy” Trayvon since it was somewhat high pitched. However when Trayvon’s father listened to the 911 recording of the screams he said it wasn’t his sons voice while two friends of Zimmerman said it was GZ’s. Further Johns SAW he screaming at looking directly and John reaping “help” “help” again and again. Obviously by the time of her talking to CNN’s Anderson Cooper Mary Cutcher was swayed by the very misleadingly old photos of a 12-13 yo Trayvon that he was a “little kid”. Nice work Martin family lawyer and the lefty and race hysteria whipping up mainstream media. Cutcher also claimed no fight could have taken place because she didn’t hear sounds of punching, wrestling etc. Well those sounds are a lot less loud than screams for help. Oh and she said the screams had to be from Trayvon because the stopped right after the shot. Well they’d stop if Trayvon stopped hitting Zimmerman or being any more of a treat to him also. She did become a eyewitness some time after the shot and saw Zimmerman above Trayvon and concluded he must have shot him in cold blood.
That’s what the police corrected Cutcher about. They had eye witness testimony from John at the scene as to there having been a fight, that Trayvon was on top, dominant and the one doing the beating up, and that John has seen Zimmerman screaming for help while looking at him. They should have corrected her. She jumped to conclusions for no valid reason at all. The conclusions she jumped to for little reason also showed extreme bias unlike John or the 13yo’s eye witness accounts.
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Lol, it just isn’t as simple as that. Zimmerman may have been justified. That’s how big the hole in this picture is. We don’t know what happened. It iusn’t as simple as Zimmerman shot an unarmed teen. What was his motive? Was his life in danger? Was Trayvon really reaching for his gun? We simply do not know. Jumping to conclusions prematurely is a stupid thing to do and it reminds me of Tawana Brawley. This emotionally charged language is no way to go about this kind of thing.
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@ BIg Boss
Should ZImmerman be arrested? Why or why not?
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At this point yes, because it will quell at least some of the outrage and after having his day in court, all of the facts which haven’t been presented, will come out and then we can better scrutinize the situation.
But if it weren’t for the media circus, I’d be left with no other option than to say no because George Zimmerman already gave his story, and two eyewitnesses to the scuffle corroborated his side. If someone is over you, beating the shit out of you repeatedly, and you think this person is trying to kill you, then I think the use of deadly force is justified. People have been killed through beatings, ya know? Then again, I’m no lawyer and I’ve never claimed to be one.
In that second scenario, we still would not know who started the scuffle, and we’d only have Zimmerman’s word to go by. Are we going to imprison somebody for killing someone and claiming self defense, while not having any evidence to prove him wrong? That would be an injustice to him as well.
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Ace
How did he “get his”?
Zimmerman had his dirt made public. Now tray tray is getting his by having his dirt made public.
Should people use bad information to slander a person who was killed? I would like to think that, in a society that prides itself on the freedom of ALL of it’s citizens, people wouldn’t dig into my past after I was murdered for information that has nothing to do with my death while not even examining the criminal record of my killer.
On the contrary, that is EXACTLY what the law says should happen. The defendant is allowed to use any evidence about tray tray’s past to provide reasonable doubt as to his own guilt. It is GZ’s past that is inadmissable in court. You’re too dumb to have an opinion.
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@ Big Boss
Legally speaking, the burden of proof falls upon the shoulders of the one claiming self defense. So without proof of self defense it technically is still considered murder. The Stand Your ground law was intended as a legal defense in court, not a barrier against investigation and arrest. So guilty or innocent, Zimmerman should have been arrested, investigated and tried. The fact the police did not arrest Zimmerman, as they have arrested countless others in similar circumstances, shows a clear bias in the police force.
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Zimmerman should have been arrested.
If he was innocent – which is entirely possible – he would have been acquitted or even released.
The stories I hear are that TM was wailing on the guy.
1) TM was wailing on a guy and was shot as a result. Z is innocent. Bad news,
2) Z shot innocent TM after initiating a conflict and possibly beating on TM.
In either case, Z should have been arrested. His story and all the stories of witnesses would have been checked out. If the stories matched up, he’d be released or imprisoned, depending.
Straightforward.
All rhetoric on both sides is just political posturing and attempts to paint this as another case of Slavery Returning Among Us or Black Animals Behaving like Political Mobsters.
Chill pill.
Florida is known for racist cops and incompetency. I’m wholly unsurprised by this. There are likely a dozen other such cases going on right now.
On the other hand, all kinds of crime that would count as hate crime the other way around gets unreported or even uncharged when a black person does it. And on the other hand, a black guy driving a car in his own neighborhood can get pulled over and given the riot act for being black, and if he speaks out he gets mashed into a pulp by fascist cops on a
Politically correct media write hagiographies of blacks, conservative pundits claim the forces of Black Run America will destroy civilization.
Honestly, white and black America wholly deserve each other. It’s like watching two obnoxious children bitch slapping each other and screaming what now amounts to irrelevant incoherent references to oppression and repentance that may or may not have anything to do with anything. Meanwhile, the crowd standing around watching this petulant bloodbath keeps getting caught in the crossfire.
A kid is dead. All of these ideologues are trying to cash in on it. This death is fortuitous. Both sides needed it, and now the guy’s a sainted martyr to the evils of Whitey in an endless and unaltered history of victimization and unending oppression or another negro ruffian who got his just deserts, who can show how the Cultural Marxists are advocating for white genocide while black baby mommas suck off the pubic teat like social parasites.
Both so sanctimonious and self-righteous. And equally retarded.
Let’s hear the historically or statistically justified rationalizations for this cheap political cannibalism. White or black goes first?
It’s repulsive.
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And Silentreturn has it.
Florida cops are biased. I’m shocked.
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Is this true? Its going around on Facebook according to a friend of mine:-
THIS JUST IN: Now we know why George Zimmerman didnt get arrested….No Words…….According to court records George Zimmerman is the son of retired Supreme Court Magistrate Judge Robert J Zimmerman, his mother Gladys Zimmerman is a court clerk….He has three closed arrests 7/18/05 for resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer div 10……..8/9/05 for domestic violence div 44….. And again on 8/10/05 domestic violence div 46
Apologies if I am repeating what has already been discussed on here.
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‘It is GZ’s past that is inadmissable in court.’
I call rancid BS. Criminal and personal histories have always been admissible in court no matter whether it is the plaintiff or the defendant. The leak about Trayvon Martin’s marijuana related suspension is actually illegal (not to mention irrelevant). The cop that had this leaked is being disciplined. The defacement of Zimmerman did not delve into his personal life, just his police record and witness accounts. The defacement of the victim however false and its soul purpose is to corrupt the jury decision. The things being revealed about Martin are just plain irrelevant to the trial.
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(Abagond, can you move the comment box to the bottom of the thread instead of the top? That’d be especially easier on a phone, and it also might encourage more people to read the thread before commenting.)
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Check out this new NRA product:
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The insanity never ends! Serenity now, serenity NOW!
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Big Boss–
That’s a completely unreasonable and unfair to individual Zimmerman reason. Maybe if Florida is gonna bank roll a top flight attorney for Zimmerman, compensate him for being out of work because of the time demands of preparing for trial and the public media whipped up acrimony, just maybe ok. Still seems wrong but less wrong.
If there’s not probable cause that Zimmerman unjustifiably killed Trayvon he shouldn’t be tried, no matter how much black rabel rousing is going on. So far there isn’t. I’m entirely open to new credible evidence however.
I’ve said from the beginning that if there’s strong credible evidence on net balance that Zimmerman began the physical fight he should be tried. That wouldn’t make him automatically guilty of unjustified homicide, but it would tip the scales a lot. I just haven’t seen that strong credible evidence.
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Gorbachev–
I don’t think you know what the well supported by credible evidence facts are in detail, whereas at this point and for awhile I do, probably more than by far most reporters reporting on this story.
What isn’t clear is who started the physical fight between Trayvon and Zimmerman.
Although it’s far more likely that Trayvon had feeling “dissed” motive to start it, also being much taller and more athletic than 5’9 Zimmerman (a Catholic like his father by the way) than that likely gonna lose unless I very riskily before the law gun (and he knew about the law that much) Zimmerman did.
People can also say that you should never shoot someone unless it’s 99.9% clear to all and every reasonable person you’re gonna die if you don’t. I’m not remotely in that camp.
Reasonable fear of death or serious injury from a legally unjustified attack is plenty in my book.
Why are you so pandering here Gorbachev?
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‘If there’s not probable cause that Zimmerman unjustifiably killed Trayvon he shouldn’t be tried, no matter how much black rabel rousing is going on.’
Trials happen to prove who is guilty or innocent and happens regardless of the circumstances or the situation. This comment clearly shows unreasonable bias in you (that you claim to deny), or the understanding of the American justice system that does not surpass that of an epileptic five year old.
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Anglosphere criminal trials do or should happen between the goal posts of “reasonable cause” and “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt”, or above.
They shouldn’t happen below reasonable cause or any reasonable fair chance of convicting.
Thus they shouldn’t happen here.
If Zimmerman is tried on the currently available evidence it will be entirely to appease blacks for political and riot avoidance reasons, which would be hugely individually unfair to Zimmerman. Again on current evidence. Being tried is a huge fine in a case like this at the very least.
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two eyewitnesses to the scuffle corroborated his side.
Did they? In the CBS News story, it says, “Police interviewed at least six witnesses. But none of them saw how the confrontation began or the shooting that ended it.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57405671/trayvon-martin-killing-investigation-starts-over/
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If there’s not probable cause that Zimmerman unjustifiably killed Trayvon he shouldn’t be tried,
GZ killed someone, a person who wasn’t even armed. Since he claimed it was self-defense, and especially because the imbalance of firepower alone makes that at the very least a questionable claim, it should be up to him to prove that it was self-defense, and he should have had to start doing so right after being arrested. He should have been arrested and then questioned at a police station, and then examined in court during a murder trial. PO’s shouldn’t have simply taken his word on “self-defense” at the scene and let him go.
If that were SOP, then anyone could walk up to someone, kill them, claim it was self-defense when the police arrive, and then simply walk away. Which is absurd. And yet it’s exactly what GZ did.
The default presumption in any case where someone kills someone else should not be “self-defense”; that claim is instead, again, something that the killer should have to prove under intense and extensive scrutiny.
Racist whites often seem driven in their rush to defend GZ by an assumption that black men are guilty until proven innocent, and thus that anybody’s killing of a black man during an altercation is automatically self-defense. That’s straight-up, Jim Crow-era racism. How twisted do defenders of GZ have to be not to see that?
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There is absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman wanted to kill Trayvon by the way, as opposed to stopping the really severe beat down with risk of death or serious physical injury to him. His crying for days afterwards over regret that Trayvon died reported by his black friend rather cuts against that interpretation.
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Sorry that should have looked like this…
two eyewitnesses to the scuffle corroborated his side.
Did they? In the CBS News story, it says, “Police interviewed at least six witnesses. But none of them saw how the confrontation began or the shooting that ended it.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57405671/trayvon-martin-killing-investigation-starts-over/
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silentreturn
“I call rancid BS. Criminal and personal histories have always been admissible in court no matter whether it is the plaintiff or the defendant.”
You can call it whatever you want. It’s the law. The defendant is allowed to bring his accuser’s past into court because he’s allowed every opportunity to create reasonable doubt. But the defendant’s history is not admissible. The only exceptions are for rape in which case the accuser’s history of being a skank is inadmissible ie “rape shield” laws.
“Legally speaking, the burden of proof falls upon the shoulders of the one claiming self defense. So without proof of self defense it technically is still considered murder.”
Wrong. according to an article in Mother Jones, Florida courts say the law “does not require defendant to prove self-defense (…). The defendant’s only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable.”
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A defensive shooter is not always arrested. If it looks like a clear case of self-defense then no arrest. However, the shooter is always handcuffed and taken tot the station for questioning; the case is always passed to the DA (capius request. I believe its called) who decides whether to arrest and attempt trial.
An innocent shooter is usually not cleared for months. Proper procedure was followed.
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The only fact the is 100% certain is that Zimmerman killed Trayvon which is a reasonable cause. The thing that burns me up is that the police did not arrest him (stand your ground is ONLY a court defense). A majority of cases like this is that the person is arrested and bail is posted. They have contact with lawyers and investigative results and can offer testimony. If you shot a man and claimed self defense, you would still be arrested and tried like everyone else. Zimmerman nor anyone else should get special privileges in the eyes of the law. Unfortunately, Zimmerman, along with many others, is getting this special treatment. If the police did their job, this ‘media circus’ would not have occurred.
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Doug1
Abagond’s readers are too bigoted (and too dumb) for you to explain the law to them.
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I’ve said from the beginning that if there’s strong credible evidence on net balance that Zimmerman began the physical fight he should be tried. That wouldn’t make him automatically guilty of unjustified homicide, but it would tip the scales a lot. I just haven’t seen that strong credible evidence.
No. Your argument is invalid.
Instead, GZ needs to prove in a murder trial that he acted in self-defense. Again, self-defense is not the justifiable default assumption here, and neither the police nor anyone else should simply take his word on that. Until he produces credible evidence and convinces a jury of it, he is by all civilized societies’ laws a murderer who should be imprisoned.
When a person kills someone, the default assumption is murder, unjustifiable homicide, not self-defense. Simply claiming at the scene that it was the latter doesn’t change that.
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aspergum
“Instead, GZ needs to prove in a murder trial that he acted in self-defense. Again, self-defense is not the justifiable default assumption here”
Yes. It is. That’s the way Florida law is written.
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http://www.kchronicles.com/2012/03/26/dog-poop/
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In Florida i can shoot anybody and claim self defense and nothing will happen?
Damn
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That’s the way Florida law is written.
Cut and paste a quote from the part of the law that says so, please.
Otherwise, stop flinging BS.
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[…] […]
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Abagond’s readers are too bigoted (and too dumb) for you to explain the law to them.
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@ Doug1,
Right. Nothing you have said (ever), has given anyone an inkling that you are the least bit intelligent (let alone, more intelligent than anyone here).
Your Ku klux klan delusions of white greatness are just that: delusions.
http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/01/04/0956797611421206.abstract
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^^^^
@ Destructure
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If we are too bigoted and dumb, then what does that make you for arguing with us? Ha! Even dumber. Especially since, with your vague comment, that includes your supporters as well.
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cemmcs
“two eyewitnesses to the scuffle corroborated his side.
Did they? In the CBS News story, it says, “Police interviewed at least six witnesses. But none of them saw how the confrontation began or the shooting that ended it.””
That is a perfect example of blissful ignorance – exactly what every witch-hunter here is guilty of. Why not spend 20 minutes educating yourself to the particulars of the shooting?
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I guarantee you all…I promise you that if the colors of the victim and shooter were switched, these “defending Zimmerman” people would condemn him in a heartbeat.
Two eye witnesses, one named John who didn’t want to give his last name to the media on whose property the altercation took place, and a 13 yo boy saw Trayvon wearing a hoodie straddling Zimmerman who was pinned on the ground, saw him bashing GZ’s head on the concrete a number of times, saw him repeatedly punching him in the face with no signs of stopping while all the while Zimmerman was screaming for help repeatedly. Then John locked his front door and ran upstairs to call 911 and heard a gunshot on the way. No eyewitness to the fight said anything different.
Where did you get that information from, what news source?
An ear not eye witness Mary Cutcher who was obviously very biased against Zimmerman and in favor of Trayvon in ways that should become apparent, heard the scream for help which she called whining and was sure it “must be” coming from “little boy” Trayvon since it was somewhat high pitched. However when Trayvon’s father listened to the 911 recording of the screams he said it wasn’t his sons voice while two friends of Zimmerman said it was GZ’s. Further Johns SAW he screaming at looking directly and John reaping “help” “help” again and again. Obviously by the time of her talking to CNN’s Anderson Cooper Mary Cutcher was swayed by the very misleadingly old photos of a 12-13 yo Trayvon that he was a “little kid”. Nice work Martin family lawyer and the lefty and race hysteria whipping up mainstream media. Cutcher also claimed no fight could have taken place because she didn’t hear sounds of punching, wrestling etc. Well those sounds are a lot less loud than screams for help. Oh and she said the screams had to be from Trayvon because the stopped right after the shot. Well they’d stop if Trayvon stopped hitting Zimmerman or being any more of a treat to him also. She did become a eyewitness some time after the shot and saw Zimmerman above Trayvon and concluded he must have shot him in cold blood.
Oh. Case closed. Statements from his father and two friends are immediately credible. Statements from a guy named John and a 13 yr boy are credible. An article from a “lefty” news source, the kind of source you normally dismiss, is credible. But one woman’s account of what happened, isn’t because she’s simply biased since she doesn’t believe there was a struggle. Not those other guys. Of course not.
That’s what the police corrected Cutcher about. They had eye witness testimony from John at the scene as to there having been a fight, that Trayvon was on top, dominant and the one doing the beating up, and that John has seen Zimmerman screaming for help while looking at him. They should have corrected her. She jumped to conclusions for no valid reason at all. The conclusions she jumped to for little reason also showed extreme bias unlike John or the 13yo’s eye witness accounts.
Why the hell should the police correct anyone even if it was reported that there were 2 eyewitnesses? Who said they were credible eyewitnesses? Who said they were the ONLY eyewitnesses? These and other questions need to be asked as well.
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Brahams–
He was arrested. he was faced with multiple drawn police pistols, disarmed, handcurffed, and taken down to the police station, no doubt Mirandized, and questioned for 6..5 hours, while the police talked to the DA and reviewed other evidence. He was then released without charging him pending further investigation and the decided to not classify it as an arrest. Sam facts would have made it one if he’d been charged at that point.
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@destructure
Abagond’s readers are too bigoted (and too dumb) for you to explain the law to them.
And what does that make you, someone who loves those kinds of people?
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The amount of anti white racial hate and animus, i.e. clear cut racism, on this site is enormous.
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Doug1
I’m going to make this as simple as possible: If you can be anti-black in your views, why in the world can’t we, even though we’re not, be anti-white? What makes your people oh so special?
Let me explain it to you. We are anti-white supremacy. We are anti-white racism. We are anti-white privilege. And we are anti-whiteness. We are not anti-white, but this blog wasn’t constructed for white people. This is why the posts are written like they are. This is why many of us respond the way we do.
This case is an example of white privilege and white supremacy, and that’s why many of us are pissed. You don’t understand. So, you don’t get to tell us how we should think or feel.
If you have trouble understanding this, there’s nothing more to tell you. Maybe its you that has a problem. Not us.
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Dissatisfaction? Yes. Dislike? Probably (from some). Hate? Doubtful.
Why do you think there is hate? Because we cheer for our boxer and you cheer for yours? I mean, I really believe you’re a bigot Doug, but I don’t think you hate Blacks. I just think you don’t like Black people that much.That’s all.
It strikes me as odd, how you could seek out a group of people you don’t like, just to engage them in daily banter.
Most of the Blacks who come here want to actually read and comment on the articles that pertain to Black issues. Abagond himself has specifically stated that he does not write this blog for Whites.
No one forced you to come here. There are plenty of other blogs that cater to White issues where you can post. But guess what? You post here. Why?
That says more about you than it does about us.
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aspergum
“Cut and paste a quote from the part of the law that says so, please.”
My comment provided a link to an explanation with supporting documentation.
***********************************************
SomeGuy
If we are too bigoted and dumb, then what does that make you for arguing with us?
Desperate for entertainment. I’d go to the zoo and watch the monkeys fling $#!t but this is almost as fun.
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Desperate. Yeah, that describes you perfectly.
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@ SomeGuy,
Playing with their feces: maybe a common hobby they can connect on?
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The amount of anti white racial hate and animus, i.e. clear cut racism, on this site is enormous.
”
”
”
@ Doug1,
Your contrived debate points propped up by ignorance and negativity seems to beget contempt.
I WONDER, WHY!
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@ JT
Well, he did use the word animus. You don’t often here that in a conversation. I’ll give him that. He’s probably hella good at scrabble.
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‘Racism-noun
a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race’
Just a friendly reminder
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@ SomeGuy,
Esoteric speech is especially contemptible when it is used towards misguided and hateful ends. It suggests that the individual has refined abstract thought and rhetorical ability but…
has willfully neglected other arenas of higher learning, foolishly divesting him- or herself in a system replete with contradictions and philosophical paradoxes (since it’s inception).
He is weak minded and morally bankrupt. I wouldn’t invest a penny in him or his thought. Science never works outside of the circles of morality and ideology.
He may claim to have science on his side, but his logic works entirely outside of ethical considerations.
Not much of a human being as far as I am concerned.
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destructure–
My comment provided a link to an explanation with supporting documentation.
No, it doesn’t. You’re still flingin poo.
You made a claim about what the law says; I want to know which part of the law says what you claim it does.
Which lines in the law (which, from the way you’re referring to it so cocksuredly, I’m sure you’ve read, and can link to) state that self-defense is the justifiable default assumption when someone kills someone else, i.e, that there’s no need for the killer to demonstrate or prove that it actually was self-defense?
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@ Someguy “You don’t often here that in a conversation. I’ll give him that. He’s probably hella good at scrabble.” Laughing hard! Needed a chuckle today for sure=)
@ Mary simple: I saw your comment and had to respond. It is people like YOU, yes, YOU Ms. Simple, who try to come off as well-meaning and above the racialization of humans, but in actuality YOU Ms. Simple are the worst type of racist.Yes, I called you a racist. You ARE a wolf in sheep’s clothing, and you know how I know? B/c of this BS you typed:
“This was not a racial thing. Was it a stereotyping thing? Probably so !! If a Mexican was walking through a place that was closed off to the public with a hood on an acting weird would this have occurred. Probably so! But if a white kid was walking through with a hood on acting weird and didn’t like being followed and decided to hit a person in the nose and fight him to the ground and this was a black security guard protecting himself, what would these community activists be saying– nothing , this would not even be reported other than in the immediate area as a death”..
I expected for you to throw in a Mexican; I guess Blacks and Mexicans just walking around is a frightful sight for your delicate eyes. Oh, we also see you are using Zimmerman’s words, ‘acting weird’, to bolster your argument? Please tell me, what was Trayvon doing that classifies as weird? Peeing in bushes while he fingered his arse with a twig? Oh, he was concerned about a strange adult male stalking him….yea, weird. Last not forget about the “Black security guard” comparison-Was Zimmerman a security guard or cop? He lacked both power and authority to do anything that pertains to law enforcement. Apples and oranges Ms. Simple.
” growing up as a black skinned person was tough,unfair etc….. in the past ,but how can this help by making it a black and white thing???? Its obvious- its not supposed to help.”
In the past? Are you freakin kiddin’ me? Are you a tween? What is the topic of this post? Tough and unfair are the words you use to describe past and current injustices. You sound like your speaking casually at a bar describing a sports event!
It is people LIKE YOU Ms. Simple who prevent or try to sabatoge open and honest discussion about “race”. It is people like you, Ms. Simple, who are so used to being coddled like sick children that you are blind to everyday injustices. And I fear it is people like you who account for the majority of the U.S. population.
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JT writes
“He is weak minded and morally bankrupt. I wouldn’t invest a penny in him or his thought. Science never works outside of the circles of morality and ideology.
He may claim to have science on his side, but his logic works entirely outside of ethical considerations. “
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Natural law is a reality regardless of whether you think it is moral or ethnical.
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@ JT
Unfortunately, what Doug is doing is very much Human and that’s the problem. I think it is better to rise about base instinct and racial hostility in order to become more realized beings. It’s far too easy to dehumanize him. I was uncomfortable with people doing that with the Nazis and just uncomfortable with it now.
Uh oh, Godwin’s Law! Yikes!
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* I meant “rise above”. Damn, spell checker, I wish you checked grammar!
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@ Someguy,
I understand the rise above part but the funny thing about these individuals is:
they mistake your kindness for weakness.
I think they push to see how far they can go until the system breaks in historical tradition and bends against them (doesn’t seem to be doing so for Trayvon’s justice – Zimmerman has judicial nepotism in his favor with family members working in the justice system). They are jumping on that crack of injustice as hard as they can. They communicate in slanderous and hateful speech. And they bait, bait, bait for discord.
Noone here dehumanizes them except for themselves. And they take no issue with either the manner of speaking nor the consequences. They don’t seem to care what Black people and social justice advocates think.
So where is the line drawn. Why should they be allowed to deface Trayvon’s memory with misinformation and hate speech (“Zimmerman did his community a service.”) All in the name of a fetishized freedom of speech.
That’s malarky. Freedom of speech is a fallacy in the USA (in many ways) and should be exposed as such. The sooner it is, the sooner we realize what type of chimera we are dealing with.
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JT
“So where is the line drawn. Why should they be allowed to deface Trayvon’s memory with misinformation and hate speech (“Zimmerman did his community a service.”) All in the name of a fetishized freedom of speech.”
hehe
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@ JT
The world is just a f*cked up place.
I treat my own life like a prison sentence. I have my little cell, got me a some commissary, I take 2 minute showers and I make good with the lunch staff. Sometimes the C.O.s will beat my ass, sometimes I have to dodge the gangs and the booty snatchers. I help the new brothers out when I can with some prison knowledge and I basically wait until my time is up.
The stuff I can’t control, I leave alone.
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I just have one question:
Why do so many White people have so much invested in PROVING that the death of this child is justified?
Do they want to prove that racism doesn’t exist?
Do they want to justify their own racist thoughts, feeling and fears about Blacks?
I see why Black people are so vested, a Black child has DIED and the racist history and devaluing of black life in America, but the question still remains…
Why are Whites so vested in JUSTIFYING this kid’s death? What do they gain? What is in it for them? Blacks want the killer to face justice, that’s it. What exactly do White people want?
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@ SomeGuy,
I respect that philosophy.
At the same time, people treat others how they need to be treated.
These pr^ck$ need a lesson in what is right and what is wrong.
Like you say, if they were to state up front that they are absolutely ignorant when it comes to being Black in North America or Europe then they would at least be honest and honorable.
But they proclaim more than an iota of knowledge about the subject and then try to apply their social darwinistic implications on what they think they know.
They are squarely out of line.
And i resent that they create more injustice and hatred in the world instead of cultivating good will or becoming benefactors for others.
They are using what could be valuable energy for causing greater difficulty for others.
There is no love in what they do.
It is a very low-level form of functioning.
I hope that they reflect.
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@ Jada
What do whites want?
Answer: Everything.
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@ JT
Injustice inflames you. I respect that, sister. My old, jaded a** been in the cave too long. The outside world has just become a theory. Even Ra scorns me. Ha!
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@ SomeGuy,
Yes. Social injustice is something i don’t take to too well. Something I am planning to dedicate myself to working against for hopefully the rest of my life (once i graduate at the end of this year from university)
Oh and I appreciate being mistaken for belonging to the more attractive (and often smarter) sex but i am a dude. 😛
Just had to state that up front.
As far as the ways of the world go, I have learned and laughed from your musings about the world. I wouldn’t imagine you were disconnected from the outside world at all. Can i ask you to elaborate on what you mean by that? I mean, in what sense are you disconnected?
🙂
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Why not spend 20 minutes educating yourself to the particulars of the shooting?
Okay, I can spare 20 minutes. What “particulars” are you referring to that are not mentioned in the CBS article.
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And to get back on topic:
Video of Zimmerman unscathed after the murder of Trayvon Martin.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/new-police-video-shows-george-zimmerman-unscathed-on-night-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/
It will be nice to see how the race realists get their foot of their mouths now. I mean they will try of course.
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@ JT
My bad on the gender thing. Perhaps, you were channeling Sekhemt, the lioness.
As for my current state: I meant it in actually two ways. One, actual physical separation from most of the populace and two, Plato’s cave.
In case you are unfamiliar with it, here is a link:
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@ SomeGuy,
Thanks! Imma check it out!!
@ Bulanik,
If the “stand your ground” defense wasn’t already a sham, then this unscathed Zimmerman footage pretty much guarantees that it is.
Zimmerman better sound the bells to all of his judicial protectors. It looks like he is going to need more of their help!
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@JT:
Thanks for the link regarding Zimmerman being unscathed on the night in question of Trayvon’s murder. Did you learn about MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell wanting to interview Zimmerman’s lawyer, but the lawyer bailed out right before the show aired? I can only guess Zimmerman’s lawyer was anxious/nervous about all the hardball questions that O’Donnell was going to ask.
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Here is a screenshot of the retraction made by Twitchy (which, unlike some here, can admit to being wrong):
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@ Leigh,
Yes, i heard that story. I am betting dollars against donuts that that lawyer is a high paid lawyer, a family friend who probably is well connected and has a nonfunction moral compass.
He has already lied about the case.
What a maroon!
I am hoping this surveillance video helps bring justice to Trayvon and his family and all those that identify with his story.
Lastly ,
Anyone else notice:
these trolls are unusually silent. I wonder why! Not like they shouldn’t have already been silent – the position they were holding was indefensible.
Sit and spin, trolls.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-police-video_n_1386764.html
Video Proof that Zimmerman was not bloody nor bruised the day after he murdered Trayvon….Apparently the video just leaked. The Sanford police are a wrap, someone is going to jail and people are about to lose their jobs….justice will be served
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Doug1,
It just disgusts me how both sides manipulate emotions around this. Not one side; both.
I read a bit about this kid. He was just a normal kid, in most respects. It’s ghoulish how he’s been used. By everyone.
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Could you see what color his eyes were? Could you read the names on the officers’ tags? Could you even tell that their tags had writing on them? Nope. So what makes you think his injuries would show up on low-res surveillance video? If you had been looking for evidence rather than fodder you would have noticed the officer walks behind him to look at the cuts on the back of his head at around the 55 sec mark. If someone bangs your head on the pavement you would expect the concussion to be worse than the cuts.
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That is Rick Santorum on “Face the Nation” last Sunday.
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@destructure
You bring up a very good point about a possible concussion.
http://www.webmd.com/brain/tc/traumatic-brain-injury-concussion-overview
Symptoms List…
Thinking and remembering
Not thinking clearly
Feeling slowed down
Not being able to concentrate
Not being able to remember new information
Physical
Headache
Fuzzy or blurry vision
Nausea and vomiting
Dizziness
Sensitivity to light or noise
Balance problems
Feeling tired or having no energy
Emotional and mood
Easily upset or angered
Sad
Nervous or anxious
More emotional
Sleep
Sleeping more than usual
Sleeping less than usual
Having a hard time falling asleep
Zimmerman was able to clearly say his side of the story so his thinking and remembering could be fine.
Physical, of course without dialogue and more info I can’t tell about the physical symptoms but he clearly walked fine so no balance issues and he didn’t seem ill or complaining of pain to the cops.
Emotional, he seemed emotionally neutral in the video but yet again that isn’t fully clear without audio.
People who spoke or Zimmerman’s behalf never mentioned lost of sleep or weird sleeping patterns.
Zimmerman’s crying (from friends mentioning it in interviews) could imply the emotional issue due to the concussion but since it has been over a month since the incident, I wouldn’t necessarily assume it was due to injuries from the fight.
Unfortunately, Zimmerman didn’t immediately go to the doctor so it will be unclear if he ever suffered a concussion. But very good information to consider in the case. No concussion could have put a hole in his story or gave it credibility if a concussion did occur but since police immediately treated him and took him to the station then I would lean toward no concussion and that he was not fully honest with his testimony. But it isn’t out of the question that he had one.
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@ Gorbachev,
What do you mean “both sides”?
@destructure,
Also, (take this from someone who suffered a concusion for having their head slammed against wall)
You don’t walk around normally (at least not easily), you slur your speech, you sound almost alchoholic and have balance issues. You also have very visible bruising. I hit the wall once and had that, and it was hard to move or even think clearly. Someone who’s had their head slammed against the ground “repeatedly” is likely to have been almost incapacitated.
While he could have had a concussion, he was perfectly able to give his version of events and did not immediately go to a doctor to get a record of injuries.
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@destructure:
Well, boy, you made the claim, with other racists here, that this kid jumped on poor Zimmerman and smashed his head and broke his nose and how he was all bloodied. Not just once or twice, but many many times. You said that Trayvon was such an athlete and thug that poor Zimmerman was beaten so badly that he had no choice but kill the kid. You based your case on wrong FB pages, wrong pictures of the wrong guy, statements of Zimmerman and cops, who are now punished for their wrong leaks, and now you babble how this new clip does not show the damage mr Zimmerman suffered!
I find that pathetic. If mr Zimmerman was beaten as badly as you claimed he would not be that guy on that video. I have seen beaten people, I have been beaten, and I can assure you none of those beaten people nor I when I was beaten looked anything like mr Zimmerma on that video.
As for concussion, I’ve had that too. I know hockey players who have had that too. I ca assure you that once you get that you are not giving flawless judicial statement to cops or to anyone. You are either laying in bed and whining or throwing up once you get that well so you can actually throw up. You may even loose some memory.
Now we have a video of mr Zimmerman and he does not look like you guys have been claiming he was after “the attack by athletic young man”. He is not bloodied, his head is not smashed or broken or fractured or anything, his shirt is not shredded (as it would be if there had been a violent scuffle, believe me, I’ve seen it many times and I have had my shirt ripped in those) and he looks pretty fine consering the circumstances.
And you do not like it. You do not like it because it makes you a liar. All those stories you have been saying about how badly mr Zimmerman was beaten are proven false. And you just got caught.
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I have openly told people on here some of the story of my work history. Some of the story includes me working as a brochure distributor and also a door to door canvasing guy for a home improvement company (getting leads). I’ll say this some of my territory was in black neighborhoods and I never got bothered……not even once. When I did get bothered it was in so called rich “white” neighborhoods. Now is that because I may look menacing as a 250lb. dark skinned Italian man. I don’t know. Or is it that these “rich” people feel that no one should bother them. In that case I don’t think it is racial. I don’t think a hoody or a suit would have mattered, some people have a holier than though attitude and I think this Zimmerman was trying to fit that mold.
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@destructure:
In that huffington post video (communist media I assume) it becomes also very clear that there is no “fatally obese” white man. If that guy really is Zimmerman and if he weighs 280lbs, that is a thick strong man there. I see no potbelly nor excessive flab hanging around him like you and other racist have been chirping here. I see a young man in pretty good shape. A guy in that shape should have been able to beat up 140lbs kid with one hand any day, instead of shooting him dead.
Also funny but very telling detail: they check his pockets at the station after he gets up from the car. You know when they usually do this? Yeap, right at the scene. I think any one who has had y contact with any police knows that by experience. That is one of the basic things BEFORE you put any one inside a police car. But this time, looks like it.
Also, mr Zimmerman moves pretty nicely for a guy whose head was all smashed, whose nose was broken, who was all bloodied according to doug, destructure, brahms etc. If he had been injured at all, he would have not gotten out of that police cruiser without assistance. Nor he would have been walking around in that realxed manner at ease like he does on that video.
Also, where is the blood? I mean, according to the racist chorus here, he was all bloodied up. Where is it? Cops do not clean you up like that. They might put some bandages or wipe some blood from your eyes but not clean you up like that. Why? Because it is all evidence. And I do not see any evidence.
And you guys shouted on top of your lungs how that violent criminal athlete beated up an innocent out of shape mortally obese white man. What was that?
How do you explain this? Communist conspiracy again, eh?
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Ace
I have no idea whether Zimmerman had a concussion or not. But I don’t think it necessarily has to be a concussion to get your bell rung, though. I’ve taken a few hard knocks but I’ve never had what you described. Mine always cleared up after a few minutes. But they may not have been actual concussions because I never went to the doctor.
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@truthbetold
I’m shocked that there might actually still be people who don’t get that OJ was guilty as hell and only got off because he was loaded.
As to the whole situation, Opie and Anthony had a really interesting discussion about this where Norton brought up that the fact that equally heinous Black on Black or White crime goes unreported because the media sees it as being “too common to be newsworthy,” a form of subtle yet self-castigating racism because society expects this kind of thing from Black people. Also hits on my point of perpetuating the cycle by some sort of ass-backwards insane form of “atonement.”
They start in at about 10 minutes in about this kind of thing. Warning, contains a lot of foul langauge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDBw7oiiZrI
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sam
The claims of zman being 240 (or even 250) pounds came from you guys. Just like the claims of tray being 140 pounds came from you guys. You were using that to claim zman was a lot bigger than tray. But I wrote on my blog a week ago that tray was 160 pounds and that zman didn’t look that heavy.
I suspect they checked his pockets several times including at the scene. If you’ll notice they had him in handcuffs. I’m sure they read him his rights, too. He was definitely arrested. He just wasn’t charged. The police wanted to charge him but the state’s attorney told them there wasn’t enough evidence. So there goes your theory of “rayciss cops”.
lso, mr Zimmerman moves pretty nicely for a guy whose head was all smashed, whose nose was broken, who was all bloodied according to doug,
No. Not according to Doug. According to the police report. There are plenty of boxers who get broken noses, knocked out, etc and are doing well enough to give post bout interviews. I’m not saying zman was knocked out. I’m just saying a broken nose, etc doesn’t make someone an invalid.
Also, where is the blood? I mean, according to the racist chorus here, he was all bloodied up. Where is it? Cops do not clean you up like that.
There were medics on the scene. But from personal experience I know that a little pressure and some vaseline will work wonders.
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Right, so this is the man that Brahms told us was a “5′ 2″ morbidly obese man” and others informed us was a defenceless marshmallow.
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No. That’s the man you guys were calling 240. He doesn’t look 240 to me. If he had been then he would have been obese. But apparently he is neither 240 nor obese.
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@destructure:
You guys have repeatedly told that this man was obese and out of shape, unable to defend himself from the attack of a young athlete. You have been repeating time and time again how badly mr Zimmer was beaten and that has been your key to his defense. Now we see that not only he has no visible damages on his face or anywhere else, nor there is blood to be seen on him at all, but also he walks and moves at ease, even when he is handcuffed and surrounded by the cops who have him arrested: a situation which would make any of us at least a bit uneasy and stiff.
If I remember correctly Trayvons weight was given earlier 148lbs. And somebody defending mr Zimmerman threw that 280lbs around as an evidence how obese and unable to fight back he was. Let us assume that mr Zimmer is packin 240, or even 200lbs, and Trayvon was, like you claim, 160. There is still a huge difference and, as we can all see from that tape, mr Zimmerman is not out of shape nor has any problems to get out of car while being handcuffed, something some completely healthy and sober others are having trouble to do.
So it looks to me that mr Zimmerman was not the poor slob you guys wanted to portray him to be. Looks like a thick set healthy young man with enough physical abilities to get out of the car while his hands are cuffed with no problem what so ever. This tells me he is in a relatively good shape. And if he weighs 240 or even 200lbs that tells me that this guy is physically strong individual. And that tells me your stories of a poor out of shape slob getting beaten by a black athlete does not sound real.
You guys repeatedly stated that mr Zimmerman was beaten badly by Trayvon. He had serious damages: his nose was broken and he was all bloodied and his head was smashed. I see none of those. Have you ever seen how much blood comes from even tiniest cut in your face? Have you ever seen how much blood comes froma broken nose?
I have. If your face is cut in any kind of struggle, you face will be bloodied all over in few seconds. That is why boxers look so bad even when they have a small cut or their nose bleeds. It is the blood pressure and sweat. Your blood pours out like no tomorrow. Your whole face, ears and neck will in blood in matter of half a minute.
My nose bleeds easily. That is the reason why I gave up boxing. It just looked like hell even though I was not seriously injured. Few punches and tens of seconds and my face was all red as was my shirt and chest. I had no problems but the referees and audiences did. And my trainer.
Now when you guys claimed that mr Zimmerman was all bloodied, I thik I can assume what that would look like after a tuff street fight. It looks nothing like that on this video.
One video and your whole case is out of the window. This man is not a) obese and unfit to defend himself, b) beaten badly at all. We all can see it quite clearly right there. Not just from one camera but two, one even closer up, where we should see the broken nose and blood all over. There is none.
And you guys still claim that Trayvon was a thugg with athletic condition, a criminal selling weed and flipping gangs signs, beating morbidly obese helpless mr Zimmerman??
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Look at it this way what if Trayvon was a 250lb. black man. Do you think tough guy Zimmerman would have had the guts to confront him? He threw his weight around at a kid.
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@Ace,
Gorbachev,
What do you mean “both sides”?
1) Angry black people calling out Racism! for the rather obvious racism involved here. Alas, this is standard-issue racism, and not the clearest-cut case of it. Why morbidly elevate this poor kid into Sainthood for – even legitimate – political grievances? Crass opportunism. It’s cannibalistic in that sense. That blacks feel oppressed doesn’t lessen the general insult to the dead, to the real person TM was and the real people his family and friends are.
2) White people whith an axe to grind, using this to highlight anti-racist hypocrisy (see: all kinds of reverse-racism in courts and among crimes), inevitably to justify racism, deny racism, or paper over racism.
I’m sure this is going to get into “blacks have lower IQ and TM proves how sociopathic they are” territory at just about the same time that it gets into “White people are all evil fuckers” land.
Humans never lose the ability to be disgusting.
Sometimes a strongly held belief system becomes nothing more than an excuse for narcissism. In this case, it’s all a huge media/mob action/artificially generated social crisis.
A thousand more crimes far worse than TM being offed after a scuffle by some weird Hispanic wannabe cop happen every day.
Facile, puerile elevations of this kind of tragedy into national dialogues may help the nation discuss things, but it makes a mockery of the death of one poor, and likely “generally” innocent boy who didn’t need to die.
If you get all pissy about this kid dying, why not stop railing aganist the evils of whites and get rid of the stupid carry laws that let some dimwitted dildo carry a gun around?
If you detest blacks so much, why not just say: if you attack me, I’m going to respond by executing you with this concealed gun?
I don’t want to live in a society governed by either of these pathological social views.
America truly is sick.
Like I said: Blacks and whites in America absolutely, 100% deserve everything dished out by each other. I don’t give a tiny piece of crap about historical X or Y.
At this point, the pathology in both worldviews is so damned deep, so ingrained, so integrated into the bones of the two cultures, that it’s possible that neither part of this society is redeemable.
And the ghoulish response to this kid’s death is yet another symptom showing this.
White people want to put a gun in the hands of every non-black, now, ready to gun down the Perp who walks in a neighborhood he’s not in in some sort of act of defiant self-righteousness. Blacks want to build huge statues to nameless dead teenage boys with a huge stone fist raised into the sky and add yet another grievance to a culture of self-pity and reactive hatred.
Humans are truly awful.
Watching this from Asia, at the moment, I dread having to come home to this maelstrom of invective and mutual fratricidal incrimination without the hope of reason.
What this reminds me of:
Anyone ever watch the old Star Trek? I don’t remember much about it, but the emotional impression I got of one episode i saw as a kid stuck with me. it was this absurd allegory of black anda white, people with black on one side and white on the other. A cop was pursuing some revolutionary across space, met the Star Trek people, and a crazy fugitive fight ensued. The crew took various sides depending on emotional responses. They were forced to bring them back to their home, where the revolutionary escaped and the cop went after him through the denuded ruins of a civilization.
It didn’t matter who was right or wrong; they both were, from some perspective.
Both were equally blitzed. They were both equally homicidal. Their hatred was so powerful, they both absolutely deserved to run naked through the chaos and ruin they’d created, on a tortured quest to kill each other.
I can imagine in the history of this fictional world was a stage much like the TM case and the billion others like it.
Black kids screaming “kill the crackers” invade a home and rape an elderly woman and when they’re arrested, the (black) cops are charged with racism. White company hires exactly one black guy to work in the warehouse. Blacks get control of Washington’s transit system and run it into the ground, showing through selective hiring, nepotism and corruption how precisely they can mimic the behavior of Apartheid governments everywhere. Dozens of black kids more or less discarded by their own and the majority culture descend on a state fair and proceed to beat, rough up and terrorize anyone not black. White reactionaries get baseball bats and patrol streets.
Fuck. It’s true what the Chinese say:
Black and white Americans, it’s hard to tell which one is worse. We both deserve to see our cities burning, with black and white babies dying in the street, hands at each other’s throats.
It’s funny to see liberal white apologetniks cower when they realize their pet blacks have actual opinions and nasty reactions and pathologies of their own and aren’t just tableaus for the painting of self-indulgent self-hatred.
It’s amusing to see blacks react with blaming, self-righteous victimization and a tribalism almost identical in every measure to that of their “oppressors”.
It’s one culture. Not two. One culture of two tribes, lock in bitter, internecine loathing.
Almost all of the rhetoric surrounding the Travyon Martin case paints this with excruciating clarity.
Yet another indication that America is incapable of governing itself.
Like my Chinese friend said to me the other day when we were talking about this:
I have no idea what the difference between black and white is. You all sound blind and deaf.
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@ Sam and everyone else
You all have brought up some very good points, but I think your time is wasted in trying to talk to the trolls.
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@Gorbachev………..you do know this isn’t the norm in america right? don’t say it’s something deserved because of some bs pattern.
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I love how these threads about the Trayvon case, a currently unfolding news story concerning race, show up how bad white racists are at gathering facts and making sense of them. Makes one wonder about everything else they think and believe. (Not that I did not already wonder.)
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Just a note: You do not need a black skin or a media circus or Al Sharpton or Wyclef Jean tweets or supposedly emotional Negro thinking to be outraged at the Trayvon case. You just need common sense and a human heart that has not turned completely to stone.
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Ace
You guys have repeatedly told that this man was obese and out of shape, unable to defend himself from the attack of a young athlete.
I just searched the threads dealing with this incident and I never called Zman obese. But you did.
You have been repeating time and time again how badly mr Zimmer was beaten and that has been your key to his defense.
No. I said tray attacked zman. I have no idea how serious his injuries were.
somebody defending mr Zimmerman threw that 280lbs around as an evidence how obese and unable to fight back he was.
Maybe so. But it wasn’t me.
And if he weighs 240 or even 200lbs that tells me that this guy is physically strong individual. And that tells me your stories of a poor out of shape slob getting beaten by a black athlete does not sound real.
I’d put him closer to 180. But that’s just a guess. He works a desk job so he may be out of shape. I don’t know.
He had serious damages: his nose was broken and he was all bloodied and his head was smashed. I see none of those.
Maybe not. But the officers and medics on the scene did. Although I do see a long, vertical cut on the back of his head. I can’t tell how bad it is from the video.
One video and your whole case is out of the window. This man is not a) obese and unfit to defend himself, b) beaten badly at all.
Not really. Because I never made either of those claims. And even if I had it wouldn’t undermine the conclusion that Zman acted in self defense. There is such a thing as ‘argument from fallacy’. Which means that just because an argument contains a fallacy doesn’t necessarily make the conclusion false. But I’m not aware that my argument contains any fallacies.
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abagond
I love how these threads about the Trayvon case, a currently unfolding news story concerning race, show up how bad white racists are at gathering facts and making sense of them.
Your facts and those of the other bigots of color (BoC) have been as bad as anyone’s. You said tray and zman were 140 and 240 respectively. They’re not. And I believe you said there were two shots fired when there was only one. And you’ve even said zman continued to follow tray after the dispatcher asked him not to. That isn’t supported by the 911 call. Those are some very fundamental errors for you to make on this story. You should probably educate yourself by reading my ‘Trayvon Martin FAQ’. An awful lot of people have read it over the past few days.
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@destructure:
“you’ve even said zman continued to follow tray after the dispatcher asked him not to. That isn’t supported by the 911 call.”
Well, perhaps he just got out of the car and started to breath heavily into running rythm, you know, jumped up and down right there or something, jumping jacks perhaps?
That tape shows clearly what happened. Dispatchers tells mr Zimmerman not to follow, “we don’t need you to do that” into which Zimmerman answers “ok”, then we hear how gets out of the car and starts to breath like he is running, after which the dispacther ask him “Are you following him?” into which mr Zimmerman does not answer, but says few seconds later that he will call/talk back later. Now what do you think happened there?
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Gorbachev,
You really are going to claim that blacks are being “opportunistic” and “cannibalistic” as if they just sit and wait for their kids to be murdered so that they can reap the benefits? As if they are savages who don’t care about things unless white people do it to them? Can you name one of those lovely benefits? I think they would much rather be able to trust that their kids can walk free without harassment, and that if they send them out, they can come home safely. They would especially prefer that their kids weren’t immediately singled out as criminals for reasons that would be excused or overlooked if they had a different skin color. How is that hard to comprehend? It shouldn’t happen, no matter the color.
Now that that has happened, it is not really your place to sit here on a pedestal and pretend you have some “secret” that white and black people haven’t learned, and go on some long rant about a situation you’ve clearly had your mind made up about, like your some “race guru”.
I don’t think you are making yourself out to be the “voice of reason”, you seem like your already slanted against black culture, and you think that concern trolling will make your attitude more acceptable but it will not.
You don’t get to claim to be the one who “cares” about the family enough that you think you can scold black people on how to react to a situation when you’re also the one to call that same “culture” a “culture of self-pity” in the same post.
How is it “self-pity” that people won’t sit back and let a young man’s reputation be smeared after his murder? Black people are within right to feel angry or upset over his death and the smear campaign that is taking place right now, in fact, everyone has a right to feel angry about that. And they should. We are not going to be told by yet another “concerned” person that black lives mean less, and any outrage people feel is somehow flawed, wrong, or “cannibalistic”.
Actually, we can say someone is being opportunistic, besides the bigots who want to use his death to prove some “pathology” on the part of the victim. Your being awful opportunistic if you think you can use this situation to tell people how to think or whats wrong with them.
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@ destructure,
Yeah I get the concussion thing, but I do not believe it would have been easy for him to be slammed against the ground repeatedly by someone who weighs much less than he does, get up, shoot the teen more than once in the chest, and then stand over his body in a manner that would keep him from getting up. An athlete can barely keep their balance and ability right after they get a concussion (I was an athletic trainer for a time, and I help out with a college softball team), I doubt an out of shape man would be able to do that while dealing with a head injury.
Also…
Trayvon FAQ? Seriously? Why do you think you have the right to have a “Trayvon FAQ” like you know him? Do you have accurate pictures, information, a connection to the friends and family, and actually see people like him as individuals?
Also, why are we still arguing the schematics?
Trayon was followed, there was an altercation, and then he was shot. More than once. Zimmerman made no effort to help him after shooting him, and was able to clearly give his “account” of what happened to the police. If we add the 911 tapes when he first notices him, we can tell that the altercation was no accident, and no matter what, he was liable in Trayvons death.
Bringing up a school suspension that had nothing to do with Zimmerman’s choice to shoot him, or minor injuries Zimmerman may have had after following him doesn’t really change the fact Zimmerman is alive and well, relaxing at home while Trayvon’s family has to bury their son. There’s something wrong with that.
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@ Sam. You are wasting your breath and your intelligence. The troll is flailing. Clearly, the troll is suffering from a bad case of ” foot in its mouth” 🙂
Justice for Trayvon Martin’s family hopefully will be sooner rather than later. Time will only tell. What’s done in the dark will eventually come to light. Keep on FBing and tweeting about TM until justice is served!
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@ Ace
If you’re not familiar with Gorbachev all you need to know is that he’s just a white European Immigrant who came to America. An immigrant who “prides himself on having a strong and objective view of American racial politics”. He’s pretty popular in the Alt-Right/Reich “Manosphere”, because despite his feigned neutral tone, he ends up casually slipping in the same exact nonsense the more ignorant and blatantly racist white male posters constantly say. Just in a more calm and articulate fashion.
He’s basically “a European Randy”. Just…with fans.
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sam
“That tape shows clearly what happened. Dispatchers tells mr Zimmerman not to follow, “we don’t need you to do that” into which Zimmerman answers “ok”, then we hear how gets out of the car and starts to breath like he is running, after which the dispacther ask him “Are you following him?” into which mr Zimmerman does not answer, but says few seconds later that he will call/talk back later. Now what do you think happened there?”
Yes, The tape does clearly show what happened. But you have it out of order. Listen to his 911 tape again, Beginning at 2:00 minutes. Zimmerman says, “He’s running.” He then opens his door, and there is the ding dong ding dong sound the truck makes when a driver’s door is opened with the key still in. The sound stops, you hear the door close, and rushing outside noises. The dispatcher asks, “Are you following him?” and he says, “Yes.” The dispatcher says only, “Ok, we don’t need you to do that” and he says, “Ok.” Then it is quieter, because Zimmerman stops moving, but he never gets back in the truck. There is no sound of a door opening again or closing. At the end of the phone call, he walks to read the street sign he was asked about, and that is how he meets Tray.
Zman was on the phone for another 2 minutes after he was asked not to follow tray. How far do you think tray could have run in two minutes? Most high school athletes can run half a mile in 2 minutes. And yet the shooting was less than a block from Zman’s truck. If Zman was chasing Tray then how are they only a few yards from Zman’s truck? Because tray came back.
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Yes, Sam, you are right about the call…Destructure is full of bs about it…
It is a fact that there is one minute after he leaves the vehicle when the dispatcher has advised him not to go after Martin and when Martin and Zimmerman confront one another
One minute is a long time, he was definitly in the act of pursuing Martin…and that is the crux of this that smell bad…Zimmerman, a self appointed armed neighborhood watch person, is nervously stalking ,at that time an innocent person,he thinks that innocent person is guilty of something, and, he absolutly never identifies himself as a neighborhood watch person based on Martins girlfreind. An that is why this person needs to be brought into a court of law
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Ace
Yeah I get the concussion thing, but I do not believe it would have been easy for him to be slammed against the ground repeatedly by someone who weighs much less than he does, get up, shoot the teen more than once in the chest, and then stand over his body in a manner that would keep him from getting up.
I have no idea how hard or how many times his head hit the pavement. It doesn’t have to be a concussion to be a legitimate case of self defense. But Zman didn’t shoot him more than once. There was only one shot fired.
Why do you think you have the right to have a “Trayvon FAQ” like you know him?
It doesn’t have anything to do with his personal life. It discusses the evidence.
Trayvon Martin FAQ
Also, why are we still arguing the schematics?
Because you still don’t understand the basic facts of what happened. If you would stop listening to each other and start looking at the evidence and what the witnesses have to say then you would understand what happened.
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Trayvon Martin FAQ
http://destructure.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-faq/
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@Franklin:
Gorbachev? lol! This is too funny.
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BR
It is a fact that there is one minute after he leaves the vehicle when the dispatcher has advised him not to go after Martin and when Martin and Zimmerman confront one another
Ok. A minute then. It doesn’t change the order in which the events occurred. Go listen to the tape. He gets out of the truck BEFORE the dispatcher tells him not to follow.
The house tray was staying at wasn’t that far. He could have easily jogged home in a minute. But the shooting was only about 30 yards from Zman’s truck.
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@ carmen taylor (deleted commenter)
Please, no racial slurs.
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i didnt raciall slur anyone
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….and he answers the dispatcher so he knows the advice he is getting ,yet, he is prancing out there a minute looking for him….an armed self appointed neighborhood watch guy, stalking someone he hasnt let known he is this self appointed watch guy,
cmon destructure, you are looking weak
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@ carmen taylor
You used the word whitey. It is mostly put in the mouth of black people by white people. There is no reason I have to put up with that.
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@ destructure,
Follow your own advice, and don’t think you can tell us what we “understand” or not just because we don’t agree with your slanted version of what happened. Too bad Trayvon isn’t alive to correct Zimmerman’s claims.
Also, you are racist, you have made that fact clear before. What business do you have making a “Trayvon FAQ” as if you have the ultimate facts and are all knowing on the situation? It just goes against all logic. You are too biased to act as an authority on that case, that was made apparent the minute you started agreeing with the attempts to demonize Trayvon. You are obviously intent on painting Zimmerman as a victim with the right to “sue” for defamation, instead of a culprit. You also are leaving out things that incriminate Zimmerman and show that Trayvon did not attack him from behind. You have to be able to realize that a crime has taken place.
Stop trying to justify a murder because you can’t handle the fact that you can’t force your stereotypes, assumptions, and bias into the case anymore than they have been already. Your “FAQ” is nothing but obsessive. I honestly felt almost sick when you tried to argue what a “child” was. Apparently calling Zimmerman a “child killer” is an inaccuracy, but painting Trayvon as a violent thug is okay.
What do you really get out of protecting Zimmerman and trying to find every way to blame a dead teen?
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Someone really wants some page views, doesn’t he?
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@ Franklin:
Nailed it! Excellent observation.
Excellent question, Ace. Too bad no real answer will be forthcoming. I expect the standard, ‘witty’ comment about being amused by the ‘circus’, with a golf game tossed in as if it it’s meaningful in some way… 🙄
There’s really no getting through the feculent cud, masquerading as a functioning brain, that glorps around in the cranial containers of those virulent racists. I gave up trying years ago…
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Abagond,
Just a note: You do not need a black skin or a media circus or Al Sharpton or Wyclef Jean tweets or supposedly emotional Negro thinking to be outraged at the Trayvon case. You just need common sense and a human heart that has not turned completely to stone.
I agree. This is one of the reasons I’m aghast at the Al Sharptons and the racists using this as a thumping board.
It’s all just wrong.
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Franklinn,
Not that my background matters a whit, but I’m a born and bred Yankee whose family dates back 400 years here in some branches.
I have a stake in this. My wife married a black man and produced two awesome daughters. I’ve lived all over the world so I can’t play good White Knight and apologize for the astonishing level of self-destructive pathology in the Black American psyche: As a result of reactions to real racism and insane politics, black American culture seems like a disaster to places I’ve been in even in Africa. I come from Shanghai or Seoul or Tokyo and go home and it makes me weep.
I want my nieces to grow up free from being called Halfie and being questioned because they look a little too black for some.
There’s as much hard-assed racism and hatred on the left and among blacks in America as there is among whites. Step outside the US and it gets awfully easy to see.
Oddly, when you step outside the US it gets easier for white and black Americans to interact as Americans.
The inanities and stupidities on all sides make both black and white America look like ten year old retarded children squabbling.
Meanwhile real people like Trayvon Martin get gunned down because society is structured to make sure a black kid can’t be trusted to walk in neighborhoods he should be allowed to walk in. Suspicion and hatred all around. From each perspective, in this toxic situation, their responses make some kind of sense.
And one of them ends up dead.
It’s fucked up.
I’ve got to tell you. From a distance, from another culture, we all look like dumb children.
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I said wife. I meant sister.
My wife just divorced me. She’s not that interesting.
Not my sister, my sister is a bitch, but she makes good babies.
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Gorbachev–
Yeah I’ve not seen anything that makes me think Trayvon was a thug. After doing some reading around I don’t think he’s and angel either. I think making a big deal about his having a bag with traces of marijuana in it is rather ridiculous, or inferring from that that he’s a drug dealer.
I sort of understand it though because of the angelic little boy image the family’s lawyer misleading painted the the squeeky clear 13yo boy image they’ve passed to the media as representative. That the media are still running that and accepted that in the first place is really outrageous — the fully joined in with the Martin family’s propaganda for several weeks until bloggers on the right started doing pushback, as finally did Zimmerman’s lawyer.
What’s relevant is stuff that would indicate he’s punched people before not in self defense, and apparently from his twitter he has at least twice within the last six months and boasted about it from his twitter, which the family has since had taken down, along with his facebook. It’s relevant obviously as to how likely or unlikely it is that he’d punch Zimmerman knock him to the ground and start beating on him over feeling dissed over not very much.
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The picture purportedly of the Trayvon Martin we’re all talking about which abagond publishes above may well not be the Sanford Trayvon Martin. But again this one very much looks like an older version of the Trayvon Martin at 13 that his family has put out to the media. Bloggers have said they got if from the Sanford Trayvon Martin’s facebook and was apparently attached to his twitter account before the family had that taken down.
This one:
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/26/the-daily-caller-obtains-trayvon-martins-tweets/
This guy looks capable to taking down 5’9 obese Zimmerman with a sucker punch.
And well yeah the decorative gold front teeth do look rather thuggish come to think of it.
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Here’s the problem: It doesn’t matter if Trayvon was a thug or a murderer. He could have been covered head to foot in tattoos declaring “thug-a-licious.”. What matters is a life was taken and I have not yet heard is a why GZ had the right to take the life.
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Destructure, you are the facts man…..
Here is another fact : Martin was on the phone when he encountered Zimmerman…..talking to his girlfreind…
Now I ask you, how could he be preparing to attack while talking on the phone ? It was not premeditated, the snap by who ever did it first was not a pre meditated attack by Martin, who didnt even know who was stalking him
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Brothawolf—
I’m not anti-black in my views. I don’t hate blacks in general. I’m anti-PC lying about racial differences on average and I’m anti anti-white bias among blacks and in the media anytime any conflict been blacks and non-blacks especially whites comes up.
It’s a hoot to say that most of the black commenters on this board, and I can’t think of any exceptions, aren’t anti-white. The hatred of whites on here especially any who are far leftists and utterly pc, and basically kiss ass to blacks all the time, is great.
I get called racist all the time around here because I very politely but without backing down say I think the scientific evidence strongly shows that there are racial differences on average in many human physical and mental traits including intelligence. All these differences heavily overlap between races yet average differences and ones all along the respective bell curves remain.
Not just on this blog but just about everywhere this Trayvon Martin case is being discussed I see by far the most fair minded analyses that reasonably weigh all the credible first hand evidence, coming from some, but by no means all, of those that think the shooting of Trayvon was probably in self defense. I see by far mostly and in fact almost entirely emotional, and often heatedly emotional, and logic light “arguments” coming from the side that things it wasn’t self defense but instead somehow a racist murder.
On this blog especially those that don’t agree with the black point of view, which is overwhelming in favor of convicting Zimmerman, are insulted, their intelligence belittled (when we’re doing by far most of the intelligent analysis of the evidence, called racist, and basically insulted in any way blacks and far far leftists like Finnish Sam can think of.
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Doug said:
“I’m not anti-black in my views. I don’t hate blacks in general.”
“I get called racist all the time around here because I very politely but without backing down say I think the scientific evidence strongly shows that there are racial differences on average in many human physical and mental traits including intelligence”
Remember that little drunken but truthful gem you bespoke just a few weeks ago? You were more truthful than you’ve ever been.
You are a stone cold, hard core, hateful, twisted, lying, evil racist who ” wants to humanely rid the earth of our race”.
Stop pretendlng to be scientific. We know your code words. We know you better than you know yourself. That’s why we’ve survived you for 400 years. We’re smarter than you’ll ever be. You want to hear another difference between us? Blacks tell it like it is, whites shimmy around every damn thing. I have no respect for your kind.
Your race has lost.
The humans have won.
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Ok here’s a dynamite bit of video that half sigma found. It a TV reporter interviewing George Zimmerman’s father for the first time, in which he tells in much more detail than we’ve heard from anyone, what his son told him about what happened. This is dynamite for G. Zimmerman. It covers the period from when Zimmerman first sees Trayvon through the shooting in detail.
The language used was much harsher than Trayvon’s girl friend said it was. It showed great anger and threat on Trayvon’s part from the get go. It’s consistant with what George said but in much more detail. Also Zimmerman who’d lost sight of Trayvon was walking back to his SUV and it was Trayvon who came up to him not the other way around. Further when the struggle was going on and George was trying to get fully onto the grass so his head couldn’t be bashed against the concrete sidewalk his gun became visible and Trayvon said something like “you’re gonna die tonight”.
Everyone HAS to watch this.
Thank god for Fox News.
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The Daily Caller has enhanced a still from the Zimmerman arrest video to show the laceration on the back of Zimmerman’s head.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/
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Thank god for Faux News.
Fixed.
Your welcome.
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Faux news on this has been ABC news and esp. CNN. Incredible bias and incredibly little real searching for the truth.
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Personally, I prefer the BBC News, but that’s just me.
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Faux news my ass.
It’s a taped interview in which Zimmerman’s father is just let tell his story, with only a few interruptions and very neutral questions.
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Zimmerman’s father was there at the time of the incident?? Interesting.
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@ Doug1,
What is your problem with Zimmerman’s family. You bring them up every post as the source of the problem. Do you know how deluded that is?
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Trayvon was NO CHILD, no angel, this is the POINT. If he was no Honor ROLE student, but instead a drug dealing, wanabe thug, then IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE, PAINTING, him to be a good little boy, and only picture of him at 10years old, not at 17years old. I wonder why. African american sell the color black, use it , promote it, develop it, hold onto it, they push a agression gangster culture, one that degrades women, so i think THE TIME HAS COME, FOR BLACK AMERICANS, TO FIX UP AND START TO BUILD YOUR COMMUNITY AND NOT TRY TO SELL YOUR BLACKNESS…You aint black. your african. Your own people call each othes nigers, black, racism in bred in african culture, when africans themselves start to realise that calling your brothers, women sister, bithces and hoes, niggers, is not gona help anyone.
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I don’t know if I can trust the word of someone who hides his face.
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I really can’t see any plausible reason why Zimmerman would strike Trayvon first. He knew the cops were coming. He wasn’t mad at Trayvon just suspicious of him. He was calm and collected on his 911 call.
Trayvon on the other hand was pissed at being “dissed” by having been profiled, followed and then his girl friend says asked “what are you doing around here?” after Trayvon said “why are you following me”.
Also in thinking about it that sounds like a very cleaned up and white sounding version of what Zimmerman says Trayvon actually asked when he first started talking to Zimmerman: “have you got a problem?” which is a lot more belligerent sounding.
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It’s a more detailed account of what his son has told him since the incident, obviously.
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Exactly, second hand information and a conflict of interest.
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@ SomeGuy:
Co-sign! 😎
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@Ace
“Follow your own advice, and don’t think you can tell us what we “understand” or not just because we don’t agree with your slanted version of what happened. Too bad Trayvon isn’t alive to correct Zimmerman’s claims.”
No, it’s not too bad. Because there’s plenty of physical evidence and eyewitness testimony to support Zimmerman. And I’ve listed it on that page. You just don’t like it. But what you like doesn’t change a thing.
Also, you are racist,
Yeah, yeah. So’s your mother. I already told you that one doesn’t work. But I guess its a good fall back when you don’t have a real argument.
************************************************
@Satanforce
“Someone really wants some page views, doesn’t he?”
Yes, I do. And that post has already received thousands of views. But that’s not why I linked it. I linked it because it answers addresses the questions surrounding this incident and it’s well documented with links to evidence and eye witness statements.
************************************************
someguy
“Exactly, second hand information and a conflict of interest.”
That’s kind of what I think about the girlfriend’s claims. Yeah, she was on the phone around the time of the shooting. But she didn’t see anything. And she didn’t come forward to give a statement to the police. Instead, she gave a statement ~through~ the Martin family lawyers. That’s suspect. Not that anything she’s said varies from Zimmerman’s and the eyewitnesses account very much. But she should have given a statement so that she couldn’t change her story as more facts come out. It’s been over a month so at this point, anything new she says should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Well lets bring it to court and find out…
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B. R.
Well lets bring it to court and find out…
Pretty much.
Not one person gives a shit about any dead kid. It’s all about winning points for X or Y cause.
Court is the place for this.
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Destructure , you are the fact man, answer this :
1) Did Zimmerman follow Martin ?
2) Did Zimmerman ever itentify who he was ?
3) Was Martin talking to his girlfreind on the phone right up to the first exchange between Martin and Zimmerman ? Do you actualy think Martin was planning an attack at that moment ?
4) In that minute of time between leaving the van , and, getting advice from the dispatcher to not follow, and the first physical contact between Martin and Zimmerman , do you think Zimmerman was just waiting around or was he looking for Martin ?
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Zimmerman’s appearance has regularly changed throughout this, first he’s a white guy who weighs 240 lbs.
Now he’s a mestizo that weighs somewhere around 170-180.
And even Trayvon’s gained 20lbs during all this.
Really makes you see how intense media bias can be; depending on which side of the story its deciding to be on at the time.
And if Zimmerman is telling the truth here; not much to say then, if Trayvon did attack him after having gotten away, knocked him to the ground and beat on Zimmerman for a minute with Zimmerman being unable to fight back……well then Trayvon’s killing was self-defense.
Of course; that still leaves being responsible for instigating this whole mess in the first place to Zimmerman.
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Gorbachev–
Don’t agree on present evidence.
If this was a white on white confrontation, it wouldn’t go to court, OPE.
If this was a black on black one it wouldn’t either, OPE.
I agree it very likely will go to court but that’s only because of politics and wishing to avoid black hothead unreasonable rioting.
That places a huge unfair burden on Zimmerman on present evidence.
It’s a huge fine to go to court in terms of attorney fees, and time and significant loss of ability to work most likely.
The chances of a jury not consisting entirely of blacks and far leftist whites OPE are very remote. Therefore it shouldn’t go to trial.
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@destructure:
“But the shooting was only about 30 yards from Zman’s truck.”
30 yards?? WTF?? You and other racust have insisted that Trayvon attacked Zipperhead next to his car. That was part of your case earlier. He could ot have followed Trayvon because the little Ngr attacked brave white man by his car. That is what you guys told repeatedly. And now it is 30 yeards away?? You guys are eating your own words faster than cookies.
@dougie:
Are you an idiot? You tell us that murderers father tells it as it was?? Was he there? How the Fk he knows anything? He does not. He tells a fairytale he hopes will save his sons A hole.
You are more stupid than I thoughed.
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V-4–
Following someone for a number of minutes does not give the followed person a right to sucker punch you with enough force to break your nose, knock you to the ground, straddle you pinning you two the ground so that you can’t escape, repeatedly bash your head against the concrete sidewalk, and keep punching you in the face, and then when the struggle makes your gun visible, reach for it.
If that’s what probably happened, even without the last, then it was self defense.
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Don’t agree on present evidence.
If this was a white on white confrontation, it wouldn’t go to court, OPE.
If this was a black on black one it wouldn’t either, OPE.
I agree it very likely will go to court but that’s only because of politics and wishing to avoid black hothead unreasonable rioting.
That places a huge unfair burden on Zimmerman on present evidence.
It’s a huge fine to go to court in terms of attorney fees, and time and significant loss of ability to work most likely.
The chances of a jury not consisting entirely of blacks and far leftist whites OPE are very remote. Therefore it shouldn’t go to trial.
Doug1,
So just to clarify:
This shouldn’t go to trial because Zimmerman might be convicted?
And here we thought you were impartial.
Tisk tisk.
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@Doug1
Actually; if the guys afraid for his life, wouldn’t it fall under the “stand your ground” law?
I mean he doesn’t have to retreat if he doesn’t want too according to that law right?
If so, presuming Trayvon had killed Zimmerman with his blows, randomly hit his throat or something wouldn’t it have been legal and considered self-defense in Florida?
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BR
1 At one point he did. But the dispatcher asked him not to and the sounds on the tape suggest he stopped. He wasn’t following tray when the exchange took place. Tray came back and confronted Zman.
2 I haven’t heard anything to suggest that he did. So I would say no.
3 The girlfriend says she was talking to him on the phone and the call logs suggest she was. So I’d say yes. But the fact she didn’t go to the police and spoke to the Martin’s lawyer first gives me pause. I don’t discount her claims. But I would give more weight to her statements if she had heard something that could be corroborated by the physical evidence and testimony of eyewitnesses.
You’re asking me to speculate on tray’s intentions. I suspect he was angry at being followed and ashamed of having ran. I think he wanted to come back and “prove” himself.
4 That’s hard to say. It’s obvious from the 911 call that he didn’t know where tray was so he couldn’t have been following at that point. The dispatcher had asked him to wait outside by the mailboxes. So he could have been returning to his truck to do that. Or he could have just been wandering around waiting for the officer to show up.
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Trayvon Rap
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@Doug1
I’m not anti-black in my views. I don’t hate blacks in general. I’m anti-PC lying about racial differences on average and I’m anti anti-white bias among blacks and in the media anytime any conflict been blacks and non-blacks especially whites comes up.
Seriously? Do you think we’re so stupid as to not tell an anti-black racist when we hear, see or read one? You are anti-black in your views. You have been since day one. That drunken statement you made weeks ago is a testament to how you really feel about blacks. Deny it all you want. Make excuses, but at the end of the day, you hate black people because they are black. Period. You can not hide it behind your race realist racist logic you believe in.
If you’re so against the media, then why do you use them as sources? That makes no sense you use the liberal media to back up your racism. That’s no different than saying that you have black friends who agree with your crap.
It’s a hoot to say that most of the black commenters on this board, and I can’t think of any exceptions, aren’t anti-white. The hatred of whites on here especially any who are far leftists and utterly pc, and basically kiss ass to blacks all the time, is great.
So, by that logic, anyone who is conservative is pro-white? I asked because to you anti-white means being a lefty.
It’s more than obvious that you will still believe what you want to believe because in the end you don’t want to have anything to do with blacks. That’s the reason why any topic about white racism is offensive to you. Thereby, anything said about whites that isn’t positive, truth or not, is racist.
This is why you hate the topics surrounding Trayvon’s murder. We talk about a racist white male who killed an unarmed young black male, and that pisses you off. It’s not the fact that an innocent person was murdered for “looking” suspicious. You’re more concerned with how people are treating Zimmerman whom, to you, is an innocent man who had every right to murder Trayvon.
I get called racist all the time around here because I very politely but without backing down say I think the scientific evidence strongly shows that there are racial differences on average in many human physical and mental traits including intelligence. All these differences heavily overlap between races yet average differences and ones all along the respective bell curves remain.
The problem is that the “scientific evidence” as you and your group adores gives you an excuse to look down on people based on color. You use to justify your racism. It’s your shield to keep you being seen as a racist.
If you strongly believe in this so-called evidence in racial differences, knock yourself out. But don’t, not even for one second, believe that black people are going to stay quiet about it. In the end that it’s no damn different than being told that just because I’m black that means I’m not as intelligent as whites or that I’m more violent than whites. Just because you use scientific words and fancy-schmancy charts, statistics, graphs, and anything else, doesn’t make it any less racist.
Not just on this blog but just about everywhere this Trayvon Martin case is being discussed I see by far the most fair minded analyses that reasonably weigh all the credible first hand evidence, coming from some, but by no means all, of those that think the shooting of Trayvon was probably in self defense. I see by far mostly and in fact almost entirely emotional, and often heatedly emotional, and logic light “arguments” coming from the side that things it wasn’t self defense but instead somehow a racist murder.
By fair minded you mean conservative/race realist sites like Half Sigma, GL Piggy, and Destructure?
You know why there is an emotional element behind it? Do you really want to know? You can’t handle it, but the truth is this is a grim reminder that being black in this country is to be suspect, imprisoned, or hunted. Trayvon could be any one of us or our children (even though I don’t have any).
You can’t and won’t understand what it’s like to be black in America. You lack that understanding and empathy. You don’t see our pain. All you see is whining. You don’t see our anger. All you see our true nature. You don’t see our humanity. All you see is our black skin.
That is your problem. YOURS.
On this blog especially those that don’t agree with the black point of view, which is overwhelming in favor of convicting Zimmerman, are insulted, their intelligence belittled (when we’re doing by far most of the intelligent analysis of the evidence, called racist, and basically insulted in any way blacks and far far leftists like Finnish Sam can think of.
What kind of intelligence makes it reasonable to defend a killer and demonize a dead teen? What kind of intelligence would believe news reports about this case that pain Trayvon as the aggressor, and use them as references? What kind of intelligence would side with the police’s reports instantaneously without question.
Here’s the truth Doug. You try to come off as some intellectual who thinks he knows what it means to be black based on scientific racism, but the reality is that you are a bigoted, sad, individual who’s willing to believe ANYTHING that makes black people look the way YOU WANT them to look. That’s the real reason why you listen to anyone that regards Trayvon as the cause of his death because you want him to be.
At the end of the day, it isn’t about science. It’s about believing for the sake of uplifting certain people and divide yourself from those you consider different than yourself based almost entirely on looks.
The sooner you realize this, the better off you will be in the long run.
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V-4
Actually; if the guys afraid for his life, wouldn’t it fall under the “stand your ground” law?</i?
That was to Doug but I'm going to answer it. You're walking down a deserted street when you notice someone is following you. You speed up and they do, too. You cross to the other side and they do, too. They're closing in on you. Just as they catch up you whirl around ready to hit them and they say, "Excuse me, sir. You dropped your wallet."
No. "stand your ground" does not give you the right to launch and unprovoked attack. Following someone by itself is NOT a provocation.
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V-4
Actually; if the guys afraid for his life, wouldn’t it fall under the “stand your ground” law??
That was to Doug but I’m going to answer it. You’re walking down a deserted street when you notice someone is following you. You speed up and they do, too. You cross to the other side and they do, too. They’re closing in on you. Just as they catch up you whirl around ready to hit them and they say, “Excuse me, sir. You dropped your wallet.”
No. “stand your ground” does not give you the right to launch and unprovoked attack. Following someone by itself is NOT a provocation.
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Abagond:
“Here is a screenshot of the retraction made by Twitchy (which, unlike some here, can admit to being wrong):”
To what wrongs are you referring?
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@Destructure,
I was wondering if you could explain a couple things for me:
How did Trayvon Martin end up face down this both hands underneath his body?
How does a person who is fatally shot dead keep talking as you have said on your link?
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Abagond
“Right, so this is the man that Brahms told us was a “5′ 2″ morbidly obese man” and others informed us was a defenceless marshmallow.”
That’s what was reported. Quickly it became 5′ 9″ and 250# . Now it is “above 200″. I am simply looking at what is being reported and will change my points as new evidence comes to light – as above. That’s what reasonable people do. What you do is not reasonable – Trayvon killed by racist profiler vigilante and cops involved in cover-up.
Trayvon was listed as 160# on police report, also said to be 6’2 or 6′ 3”. So this advantage of adult vs child is spin – will you at least admit that Zimmerman had no physical advantage over Trayvon?
The fact that the police station video showed no blood or bruising is worthless. Bruising doesn’t occur immediately and the blood would have been cleaned up by paramedics at scene . Whether his nose is broken is impossible to discern from the video. The injury on his head is examined by a cop early on in video.
The fact remains that eye-witness John saw Trayvon on top, beating up Zimmerman. So I guess the cops, Zimmerman, and eye-witness John is lying.
Do you want to see riots? Be honest.
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First of all Doug1 everything that He said in the interview is what George Zimmerman told him to say, its his dad!! He wasn’t there, the only thing he knows is what his son told him. Its doesn’t prove anything.
Plus there are so many wholes in his account its not funny.
1st he says that George gun was in a holster on his back. But somehow Trayvon mounted him, holding both of his arms down with his legs, holding his head with his right hand while punching him with his left. How did Zimmerman get his gun and shoot him directly in his chest, while Trayvon was on top of him. Plus why isn’t there an exit wound? At point Blank range a bullet would have gone right through a140-160 pound boy. There was no exit wound! How did he get his hands free to shoot him? Zimmerman was suppose to have a broken nose, where is the medical report? Trayvon was suppose to have bashed his head against the concrete, Concret vs skull, Concrete wins? No blood!!! No damages!!! It was raining that night why isn’t he wet, why doesn’t he have mud or some kind of stain on his clothes his body? What did the cops take him home to change clothes?
Plus yesterday the mother of the 13 year old witness, that conservative claim confims zimmerman story, said that her son Saw a young man on the ground begging for his life, not this huge beating that Zimmmerman, his father and the Sanford Police wants everyone to blindly believe.
This child was actually there Zimmerman father was not, the only thing he has is the lies his son told him. Or maybe sense he is a retired judge he probably just made the story up. I pretty sure his dad has a lot of pull with the Sanford Police department, it seems like hey tend to cover up crimes of children of Law officials. I pretty sure he pulled some strings to get Zimmerman out of jail and told the police to pretend this incident never happened.
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vanishpoint
I wasn’t aware that Tray was face down with his hands underneath him. According to information released, Tray was shot in the chest at close range. If he was face down with his hands underneath him it suggests he either fell face down or was placed face down.
I don’t understand the second question.
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Sam
“30 yards?? WTF?? You and other racust have insisted that Trayvon attacked Zipperhead next to his car. That was part of your case earlier. He could ot have followed Trayvon because the little Ngr attacked brave white man by his car. That is what you guys told repeatedly. And now it is 30 yeards away?? You guys are eating your own words faster than cookies.”
If you want to see where the attack happened in relation to Zimmerman’s car- look at the Fox Orlando video. Lazy boy.
here – maybe you’re busy reading Shakespeare; let me help.
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dave
”
Look at it this way what if Trayvon was a 250lb. black man. Do you think tough guy Zimmerman would have had the guts to confront him? He threw his weight around at a kid.”
HE DIDN’T CONFRONT HIM, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? Trayvon ran right? Then how in the world does the confrontation take place right off the street, very close to Zimmerman’s SUV?
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If Zimmerman feared for his life, then he wouldn’t have followed him. Zimmerman obviously felt empowered, by his gun and the police officer being behind him, so he thought he could take Traywon down.
@Dave/Doug, etc
If Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned, then how was Zimmerman able to pull his gun? You’d think Trayvon would notice him reaching for his gun and wrestle it away.
The video of Zimmerman, post-incident does not show a man who was brutally assaulted as his lawyer claimed.
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destruture
Now you are just straight lying and changing up the facts!
The body was found far away from where Zimmermans truck was parked. Zimmerman traveled a long way to get to Trayvon! He was only about 100 yards away from his home.
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Mel
If Zimmerman feared for his life, then he wouldn’t have followed him.
I doubt he feared for his life before he was attacked.
The video of Zimmerman, post-incident does not show a man who was brutally assaulted as his lawyer claimed.
A broken nose and concussion wouldn’t show up on a low-res surveillance video. That’s speculation. I don’t know that he had a concussion. Regardless, there is a long, vertical cut visible on the back of Zman’s head in the video.
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son2380
Now you are just straight lying and changing up the facts!
Ok. If you say so.
The body was found far away from where Zimmermans truck was parked. Zimmerman traveled a long way to get to Trayvon! He was only about 100 yards away from his home.
The estimates I’ve read put the body at around 30 yards from the truck. I can’t confirm that because I wasn’t there to measure it personally. But this is a streetview map showing the relative location.
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It’s a screen shot of ONE of the now widely circulated in the blogosphere pics of Trayvon when he was actually 17, as opposed to 12-13 as his family fraudulently and dishonestly put out.
There’s only one pic that’s been widely circulated that’s been shown to be the wrong Trayvon Martin. As per usual a right intellectual immediately appologized when she reconignized her error. Leftists do so far less often and quickly, relying on media support, especially in leftist controllled almost entirely media in America.
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@Abagond
Great post! I am glad you posted this because the media will always change things around to promote their agenda.
@Doug1
I think it is weird that a old picture of Trayvon Martin was posted of him because they said he was 17 when he died but he looked about twelve in a lot of his pictures. I am glad you pointed that out and I was glad that I wasn’t the only person to wonder why pictures of him as a 12 or 13 year old was used on TV. Anyways I don’t listen to the media because they always picture the wrong picture of others always and I am sick of it!
Anyways it is sad that the boy is dead and I hope Trayvon gets justice and the trial gets over with.
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To tell you all bloggers the truth, in the eyes of most Americans and the world, Black men are thugs whether they seem to be ”good” or ”bad”. Sterotypes have made it the worst and this hits home to all African American households with sons because I have a little brother and I know that he might be targetted one day.I am NOT trying to shout out the race card but that is the truth. The world just doesn’t like Black people.
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@destructure:
your link to the police report states that Trayvon Martin was lying face down with his hands underneath him, go back and read it and please explain how Trayvon ended up with his back facing George Zimmerman? thanks..
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@destructure:
“you got me” was the statement the police gave to Trayvon’s father, don’t you think it’s really weird that somebody who is dead could still talk?
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Doug1,
Are you calling the family of a murder victim “dishonest” because they don’t want their dead son portrayed as something he wasn’t? Why would they be? What would they have to lose or gain now that their son is dead? They have a right to choose what pictures they use, and I don’t see you complaining about stories where white parents show younger pictures of their children when they are killed. It’s common and it’s not a sign of dishonesty. It’s a sign of having certain pictures close to your heart that best represent the personality or charm of your child. If I were shot today, would you object to my family showing my graduation picture and call them “dishonest” for thinking it best represents who I was?
What does a picture have to do with why someone was killed in this case? Did Zimmerman have two different pictures of Trayvon to verify how “big” or “old” he was before he went after him? No. Since when does a choice of picture justify a murder or whether not someone can be a victim?
What is with this fixation with trying to paint Trayvon or his family as somehow dishonest or to blame?
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vanishingpoint
It sounds like tray was conscious for a moment after being shot. Whether he jumped up and collapsed face down or fell on top of zman and was pushed off isn’t something I can answer with the information released thus far. More details will come out and then we’ll know.
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A head injury with no type of bandage on it? Really? Head injuries are always treated carefully because you don;t know the seriousness of them
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“He was punched in the nose. His nose was broken,” Robert Zimmerman said. “He was knocked to the concrete. Trayvon Martin got on top of him and just started beating him. In the face. In his nose, hitting his head on the concrete.”
White people still will not believe it. Its called cognitive dissonance .
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Now they cannot see the video . Its not clear. Wow. His crooked dad said they cleaned his injuries. Not one piece of gauze or tape anywhere on him. Police surely have pictures of his injuries which they always take. The cognitive dissonance of whites will cause them to deny all the evidence
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Don’t know if anyone has mentioned this but Trayvon did not have any bruises or cuts on his hands that would indicate a fight according to the funeral director.
Also checked out the video footage: Surprise, not a red blood cell in sight! Zimmerman being cleaned up prior to being handcuffed by the police as so many of his defenders claim is laughable and outrageous. Has anyone ever seen the T.V. show Cops or Jail? If a brawl has taken place, no one is ever cleaned up to the point where they are spotless, in fact, they are usually placed in the patrol car bloody, shoeless, toothless, wigless, shirtless, etc until they can be assessed by the intake RN. Besides, should’nt police photograph injuries if one is claiming to be an assault victim. Furthemore, Zimmerman appears emotionally and physically unshaken, which seems odd to me given his claims of victimhood. Now for the supposed gash on the head: What I saw was (head) cleavage on a meaty headed man. ..
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@destructure:It sounds like tray was conscious for a moment after being shot. Whether he jumped up and collapsed face down or fell on top of zman and was pushed off isn’t something I can answer with the information released thus far. More details will come out and then we’ll know.
__
I find that somewhat confusing, since after the shot it seemed like silence, not even moans or cry of agony.
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destructure, do you think the gun that Zimmerman surrendered to the police is the same gun that killed Trayvon?
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@ Brothawolf,
Since it noticeably went ignored by Doug1, what a very truthful post above! I hope you are saving these posts because they need to be reiterated and reminded to all parties, especially the race realists.
They might think they are being real about racial differences but any evidence that is provided to the contrary doesn’t make it into their race realist doctrine. That’s hardly keeping it real. They need to come up with a new name. LoL
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[…] persistent and racist fear of young black men. Earlier in the week, various conservative blogs published a picture of a young man purported to be Trayvon, flashing a “gang sign” that turned out to be a different person […]
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vanishingpoint
He was probably in too much shock. I doubt he was conscious for more than a few seconds.
The police were there quick because Zman had already called them. He wouldn’t have had time to switch guns or tamper with evidence. Plus, there’s no doubt Zman shot Tray so I don’t see any benefit to switching guns. I’m pretty sure it’s the same gun.
There is one interesting thing about the gun, though. The chamber was empty but the magazine was full. A semi-automatic pistol is supposed to automatically load the next round from the magazine. I’ve heard some speculate it didn’t cycle because Tray had his hand on the slide but I seriously doubt that. Kel Tec’s are crap and those little PF9’s are known for a failure to feed. Especially with certain brands of underpowered ammo. Or it could have been a new gun that wasn’t broken in yet. I had a Taurus that was 100% FTF until I polished the ramp.
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Or Zman could have dropped the magazine and bent the lips. Or maybe the magazine was defective. Or maybe it wasn’t inserted all the way. Or maybe he didn’t have a good grip and limp-wristed it. That could cause an FTF too. Anything is possible.
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JT,
Thanks.
The thing is, like you see here, they will only see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe while hiding behind a cloak of science fiction. You’d have a better chance persuading a bear not to rip you to shreds while covered in honey.
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[…] “The Thuggification of Trayvon Martin” by Abagond […]
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Click to access NWProgramHandbook.pdf
The Sanford Neighborhood Watch Program handbook. 17 pages but if you read it you will understand Zimmerman’s 911 call MUCH BETTER. Some things he said in the call were exact parts in the “suspicious behavior” section. You might also catch why the dispatchers told Zimmerman to stop the pursuit from this part in the participants responsibilities list:
“10. Remember always that your responsibility is to report crime. Do
not take any risks to prevent a crime or try to make an arrest.
The responsibility for apprehending criminals belongs to the police department.”
As many pointed out, Zimmerman made a mistake in trying to follow Martin. He was right to stop searching but was wrong to have left his truck in the first place.
Click to access Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
Already, known information but still good to have for people wondering why didn’t the Sanford police arrest Zimmerman then and there.
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http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/327370-trayvon-martin-police-report
How long has this been out?
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deedee
I mentioned it on my blog over a week ago. Here’s the link to the Sanford Police site where they released all their info.
http://sanfordfl.gov/investigation/trayvon_martin.html
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@destructure
Uhg, I feel so late now. I looked at you “TM FAQ”. Its good you site all sides, that is very fair. Some questions I had in other posts have been answered. Although, until forensics comes out I’m still not fully confidenT that Zimmerman committed no wrong doing.
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deedee
Thanks. I tried to stick to physical evidence and witness testimony as much as possible. And I tried to provide sources so people could see for themselves if they disagreed.
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Team Trayvon is trying to make all kinds of hay and partly mysterious, more to come out of what Trayon’s girlfriend says she heard on a cell phone call to him that ended only a few seconds after the first began talking according to her. That’s supposed to be the absolute unquestionable gospel truth according to those emotionally wedded to the black view that Zimmerman must be a deeply racist bigot and killed Trayvon for that reason.
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Ace–
First of all there’s zero evidence that Trayvon was calculatedly murdered and tons of evidence he wasn’t. At most it was unjustified manslaughter to avoid a further beat down. On the available evidence so far I think it’s clearly justified self defense.
Second of all yes I’m calling Trayvon’s family and lawyer dishonest for putting out that 12-13yo picture to the media as being representative of what Trayvon looked like and physically was able to do at the time of the shooting. Damn right I am. I’m also calling the left leaning and uber PC MSM the same for accepting it uncritically and endlessly running it in their crusade against anti black racism, when there’s vastly more black anti white racism these days and vastly more black against white hate crimes, such as the scads of flash mob violent black on random whites and occassionally Asians over the last two summers, which the MSM always reported as been carried out by “youths”, never mentioned as having a hate crime motive, and always downplayed. It took the blogosphere to let anyone know the truth often using social media tools such as twitter which reflected what witnesses blacks themselves were having to say about it.
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Also Trayvon seems to have not been the model student Team Trayvon misrepresented but an average one at best academically, who had been suspended three times in the last year, most recently for 10 days. According to his twitter before his family had it taken down he slugged at least two people over the last six months. He sports a lower teeth gold grill, which is a black gangster affectation. So yeah Team Trayvon has been dishonest in both delivering 4-5 year old pictures of their son and mischaracterizing him. They didn’t just keep shut about him or refuted wrong negative things about him, the actively painted him as a harmless angel, which he hasn’t been over the last year.
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Peanut–
It was. Because he was a hothead who let his violent temper over too easily feeling deeply dissed get out of control and commit aggravated assault on a man who’d done nothing illegal or threatening to him.
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*The chances of a jury not consisting entirely of blacks and far leftist whites (which Zimmerman’s lawyer would have to be utterly incompetent to allow happen) convicting Zimmerman on present evidence are very remote, therefor it shouldn’t go to trial. Going to trial in such a circumstance constitutes a very unjust huge fine on Zimmerman, in terms of attorney’s fees and probably loss of ability to work or work full time.
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@ Doug1,
Zimmerman was not injured as per video footage and eye witness testimony.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured?newsfeed=true
You were not there but you are filling in the blanks with your own prejudice.
Stop making ish up.
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@restructure:Or Zman could have dropped the magazine and bent the lips. Or maybe the magazine was defective. Or maybe it wasn’t inserted all the way. Or maybe he didn’t have a good grip and limp-wristed it. That could cause an FTF too. Anything is possible.”
___
Everyone seems to be missing a crucial part of this information, no matter how you slice it, there has to be TWO magazines, one where the bullet that discharged came from, and the full magazine that was in the gun.Either that, or there has to be another gun.
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@all bloggers
Please respect everyone’s opinions on here geez!
@Doug1
No one is perfect and I think that it was an unjustified manslaughter as well because according to evidence, Trayvon was slamming Zimmerman’s head on the ground. I think Zimmerman wanted to do the right thing and follow the law. i don’t think he might to kill him like that. And no one really knows if Zimmerman was racist or not.
I am so sick of hearing that race had something to do with it. You don’t know George Zimmerman at all nor do I. He may or may not have been racist. Maybe he was just suspicious that someone was walking around the corner late at night in the rain. I don’t know. The police told him to not approach Trayvon at all and that was his big mistake. And now they are saying that Trayvon apraoched him first? Nonsense. I don’t know who to believe anymore!
I want someone to really tell me some insight into this case. I am NOT defending Zimmerman because I want him to go to jail.
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I am NOT saying race isn’t an issue in this case, it is one of the biggest issues in this case but I wish Americans can stop looking at race. Why didn’t they just say a 28 year old man shot a 17 year old without saying that so and so is Black and the other one is White/Hispanic, whatever Zimmerman’s race is.
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@Doug
You have the right to your opinion about the family, the media handling of the situation, etc.
This statement:
“when there’s vastly more black anti white racism these days and vastly more black against white hate crimes, such as the scads of flash mob violent black on random whites and occassionally Asians over the last two summers, which the MSM always reported as been carried out by “youths”, never mentioned as having a hate crime motive, and always downplayed.”
There is no doubt there are hate crimes against Whites and the unfortunate rise in hate crimes against Asians but I disagree with the “there’s vastly more black anti white racism these days and vastly more black against white hate crimes”
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/narratives/hate-crime-2010-victims
Almost half of all hate crimes for 2010 were raced based.Of that half 70% was anti-black.
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2010/narratives/hate-crime-2010-offenders
Slightly over half of the race of the offenders was White.
There are exact figures to go with those summaries on the above mentioned sites. I just feel that the particular statement that you made that I disagree with is not something that is true or applies to this case.
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
Click to access NWProgramHandbook.pdf
The neighborhood watch handbook will help you understand Zimmerman’s reasoning for reporting Martin. It will also make it clear why Zimmerman should have never left the car to pursue Martin even if he stopped pursuing after a police dispatcher told him not to. Also, America sees race all the time, I would be surprised if the news didn’t mention the race and ethnicity of a crime offender and victim.
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Thank you for your reasoning but people shouldn’t see race. Everyone is human!I am really young.
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
(Is 22 old…Wow, I’m considered old now) Anyhow, a lot of resources are distributed based on race in America which is why its important to get accurate counts during the Census. It would be nice to live in a color-blind society but because of major inequality in healthcare, education etc… America has not reached that point. Also, racism can only be dealt with if we consider race. Believe me, I’m also pro we are all human but considering race, even as a social construct, is essential in seeing the inequalities faced in America and hopefully fixing those inequalities to make race is no longer a factor.
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The thing that angers me the most about all of this is that you have people trying to paint Trayvon Martin as some kind of dangerous thug based on his Twitter account, when George Zimmerman is the one who actually has an arrest record.
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vanishingpoint
Everyone seems to be missing a crucial part of this information, no matter how you slice it, there has to be TWO magazines, one where the bullet that discharged came from, and the full magazine that was in the gun.Either that, or there has to be another gun.
That’s possible. But as I pointed out, FTF is very common. And it’s particularly common with the PF9. If you google “pf9” and “ftf” you’ll see that people have been talking about it on the gun threads for years.
Tray was only shot once, you only hear one shot on the 911 calls and no one is disputing that Zman shot Tray. So what would be the purpose of switching magazines or guns?
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@destructure,
I think older models may have had a problem, but I also think the GZ took the time to preload that bullet, you need to load a magazine first, load the bullet, and then replace the magazine for it to have been a fully loaded magazine. Also, that kel-trek has an available extra magazine option, and to be very honest, I clearly hear two shots in the 911 tape that the Martin’s family lawyer refers to. I think it is very possible that the magazine was replaced because multiple shots show per-meditation.
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Zimmerman was injured according to the police. He was bleeding from his nose, a cut lip and the back of his head when police showed up. EMT’s came to the scene immediately after the reports of gunshot. After trying to resucitate Trayvon they attended to and cleaned up Zimmerman. He went to the hospital the next morning.
The video people are pointing to is has his head as a small part of the frame and is grainy. However the Daily Caller has enhanced a still from the Zimmerman arrest video to show the long laceration on the back of Zimmerman’s head.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/
I imagine the police took pictures of his injuries as well.
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@destructure,
I hear two shots, it’s not just a loud noise, I think that is why the 911 operator is asking again how many shots have been fired.
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The one and only eyewitness to a large part of the fight, though not it’s very beginning, John, saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman who was dressed in a red sweater, hitting him repeatedly in the face as he heard and saw Zimmerman screaming for help.
And no I’m not making any of this up. I’ve previously on these linked to e.g.what John told the Orlando Sentinel, according to them. He also talked to the police when they came to the crime scene.
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The police report estimates Tray at 6’0 and 160 lbs and Zman at 5’9 with no weight given.
The family of Tray says he was 6’2 and 160 lbs.
A friend of Zman, Joe Oliver, says Zman is 5’8 and 170 lbs.
So much for Zman’s 100 pound weight advantage.
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Yeah the more we learn about this the more we learn how extensively the Martin lawyer Benjamin Crump is furiously spinning this story to the media, especially ABC’s Matt Guttman who hasn’t been remotely a neutral reporter but rather someone spinning this story furiously looking forward to a civil trial which is always much easier and cheaper following a criminal conviction or at least trial. CNN and other media have picked it up from there with the same spin until very recently that’s becoming a bit more balanced in some places.
But public impressions have already been made big time, and most blacks in particular are in no emotional mood to change their minds about what happened.
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destructure–
In other words dollars to donuts that Zimmerman’s weight of 250-260 with no height given at first (conservative bloggers had to find that) came from Crump, which is also undoubtedly where the angelic looking 12-13 yo kid pics came from as well. Meaning he picked them, peddled them to the media.
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Might have been an echo. That’s what one ear witness speculated.
Police found 1 spent cartridge, a full magazine, and one bullet hole in Trayvon.
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All this boils down to for me is this: who was more likely to be the aggressor in this whole situation?
A 17-year-old boy with no criminal record or history of violence visiting his father in a gated community or an unstable wannabe cop and known wife beater who assaulted a cop and has a total disregard for authority?
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From the beginning Martin lawyer Crump has sought to make the public think of Trayvon as an angelic little kid who was incapable of and wholly not disposed to initiate a fight with Zimmerman or able to beat him up and pin him to the ground to do more of it. Hence the pictures when he was 12-13 but not more recent ones of him at 17 that conservative bloggers have had to find. Hence his mother lying that he’s never been in a fight and claiming he was an honor student when he was a middling one at best. Hence the story that he was out to buy skittles and Arizona iced tea which may well have been totally a lie invented by Crump or may have been the lie he told his father when leaving the house – in strong rain – to supposedly go to a 7/11 a mile away according to Half Sigma. Maybe he was casing the neighborhood for easy targets.
Anyway that’s why the fact that he’s a tough looking 6’2 and about 160 pounds instead of looking like a 12 or 13 yo matters. That’s why looking at his tweets revealing his brother and friends talking about having hit someone around Thanksgiving and a bus driver a week or so before the shooting matter.
It’s not proof that Trayvon hit Zimmerman first and then greatly prevailed in the fight until he was shot, and certainly not that he deserved to die, but all of this does put an end to those paying attention to the impression Martin’s lawyer and complicit leftist mainstream media have worked to create that it’s utterly implausible that Trayvon could have or might have been disposed to because he felt “dissed” by Zimmerman’s profiling him, following him for a time and maybe saying to him as TM’s gf said “what are you doing around here?” it response to TM’s demand “why are you following me?”.
Team Trayvon has certainly worked hard to bring out any acts of violence real or bs on the part of GZ in the past, to make it seem it’s very plausible that Zimmerman would have started the fight.
Actually there’s no evidence that Zimmerman hit Trayvon at all that I know of.
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are you sure the tweet about swinging at a bus driver was to a different account? it was to the account NO LIMIT NIGGA which had photos of Trayvon attached to it and apparently tweets from friends about the killing. They might have been faked or something but I don’t think it was to a completely different persons account.
And the drug dealing accusation came about because a friend wrote to him on facebook ‘damn, where you at, a nigga need a plant’ after he said he didn’t have a phone. again, could be faked.
if you know any better than this, let me know.
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vanishingpoint
Zman definitely pre-loaded the bullet. I do the same with my handguns. That’s because you want every bullet you can get.
Multiple shots don’t show pre-meditation. Most people in self-defense situations fire multiple shots. I suspect he pulled the trigger twice and it didn’t shoot because of an FTF.
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It’s far more likely that Trayvon started the fight. Zimmerman wasn’t mad at Trayvon, he was suspicious of him. GZ knew the cops were coming soon. He could face assault charges. Trayvon could see his gun in a fight and take it from him and shoot him.
Trayvon on the other hand was pissed as hell it seems against GZ. He felt “dissed” by being profiled, followed, and asked what he was doing in the neighborhood. As well the fact that he doesn’t have criminal record doesn’t mean he’s never hit anyone.
Zimmerman has no criminal conviction record. Being arrest does not equal being guilty. He was arrested and given a temporary injunction after he called 911 due to minor injury to his face and his gf with no injuries whatsoever made a tit for tat accusation against him. It was dropped. Neither wanted to press charges. A big nothing. Men are arrested for nothng under VAWA if a woman make a complaint with zero probable cause.
The resisting arrest was his mouthing off at an undercover cop for arresting his friend for underage drinking. Police often over charge violently resisting arrest esp. when they rough someone up a good bit. Then they drop it in return for no civil or criminal complaint. No conviction, dropped after he went to an anger management class.
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doug1111
Might have been an echo. That’s what one ear witness speculated.
Police found 1 spent cartridge, a full magazine, and one bullet hole in Trayvon.
___
I don’t believe it’s an echo, it’s the first shot, the screaming doesn’t stop until the second shot.
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Who says the screaming doesn’t stop until the second shot? Got a link?
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@DeeDee7789
I am 16 and agree with you.
@Doug1111
Are you defending the killer? Are you saying that Zimmerman was right on shooting Trayvon and killing him? Because we all know Zimmerman should go to jail!
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doug1111
Who says the screaming doesn’t stop until the second shot? Got a link?
____
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68870555/News/911-call:-yelling-&-gunshot-heard-in-background
at 00:25 first shot, and then the screaming sounds like it goes from help me, to No! right before the second shot. at 00:45.The second shot is louder and I believe that would be due to a different size bullet than the first sound of gunshot.
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@ Vanishingpoint
Doug is out to lunch on this whole thing. Expect that he’ll blame it on the mainstream media/Trayvon’s family/Trayvon’s lawyer. He’ll no culpability belongs to Zimmerman. At all.
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*He’ll say no culpabilty belongs to Zimmerman. At all.
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@JT,
I understand your point, but it is my feeling that Doug’s opinions should be addressed and countered when ever possible. I would guess that there are many lurkers here who will agree with the idea of no culpability unless we can convince them otherwise.
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British Nazis defend Zimmerman in comments section:
Specifically far-right lunatics linked to UK political parties:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-legacy-jesse-jackson
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Adeen–
On the balance of the publicly available evidence some of which you have to dig for, I think it was legitimately self defense under Florida law and the law in most places, and hence not illegal. In about half the states if he hadn’t been pinned down and could escape further beating he would have had to try to or else it would be some sort of manslaughter or homicide, not murder, but not in the other half including Florida. However the evidence shows he was pinned down meaning it would be self defense in most states, though they vary about in how much danger he would have had to have reasonably felt he’d been in.
I think the claim that Zimmerman hunted Trayvon down and shot him in cold blood because he’s a hate filled against blacks racial bigot, has no evidence supporting it and lots against.
I think it’s clear that a fight happened and that Trayvon prevailed in a big way until shot. I don’t think it’s completely clear that Trayvon started the fight but far more likely he did than Zimmerman for the reasons I explained not far above.
Thus no I don’t think there’s probably cause that Zimmerman didn’t act in self defense and I don’t think he should be charged.
He was arrested for 7.5 hours by the way. He was handcuffed and taken involuntarily to the police station for questioning, talking further to know witnesses at the time, talking to lawyers at the DA’s office and so on before released at 3am. The police didn’t officially classify it as an arrest (which goes on an arrest record) because they ended up deciding not to charge him — yet, pending further investigation, which they did perform. But at some point of the next week or two that seems to have ended – unless new stuff came into them probably.
Zimmerman’s story is entirely plausible, not contradicted by any eyewitness who saw much of the fight (one named John), and consistent with the physical evidence, and not compellingly disproven by any ear witness.
Hey, if there’s credible evidence as opposed to a biased conclusion that Zimmerman threw the first punch, I’d say arrest and try him. Wouldn’t mean that makes self defense automatically out the window because he was pinned down, but it does throw out “stand your ground” and does shift the balance on “probable cause”. I’ve said this on another thread here days ago. I haven’t seen any such evidence.
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@Doug
there is nothing in your answer that can be verified by any of the hard evidence presented so far, such as the 911 tapes, or the police report, or the police videos. I have actually tried to search where in the police report that it states that the Kel-tek had a full magazine, it’s not in the police report that is publicly available. Do you have a link to that?And that handgun can use +P ammunition, so it is possible that GZ had preloaded his gun with +P. It is possible that the +P ammo would cause the gun not to reload, but I cannot figure out why there is the distinct sound of two gunshots in the 911 tape.
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Adeen–
Absent more legally important and credible evidence against Zimmerman that is.
The nature of this particular case is that it’s pretty binary. Guilty of some kind of homicide, or not due to self defense.
Unless it can be proven that Zimmerman threw the first punch (and there’s been no evidence of any kind that he threw ANY) he committed no crime no matter how minor until he shot Trayvon. So it’s all about whether that was in self defense or not.
Self defense against what is the next question. States vary in what level of danger you have to believe you’re in to justify using force or potentially deadly force to prevent it. No state to my knowledge permits use of potentially deadly force to prevent yourself from being robbed without reasonably believed risk of being killed or seriously injured if you comply. (I’m not at all sure I agree with that, but that’s the law. Didn’t used to be. Namby pamby. This changed heavily due to racial politics since the sixties. Changed too much I think. Changed because it was blacks who were per capita doing the robbing especially across racial lines, and whites who might resist that with gun shot across racial lines. Changed too much, leaving whites too much victims.
Well maybe I agree that you shouldn’t be able to shoot a black mugger to avoid loosing 200 dollars to him. But I don’t see why Hispanics and whites should have to endure severe beat downs without shooting same if armed. Maybe black youth should do a lot less of that than they do. Maybe they would if “stand your ground laws” were enacted in more than half the states.
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Adeen,
Notice how Doug1 grasps frantically to the supposed evidence (which in this case is constituted by the assertion that Black people are inherently aggressive, more so than whites) and then notice how he ignores vanishpoints posts which provided the audio and my post which provided contradicting evidence to what he has been stating all along.
He doesnt want to admit that Zimmerman’s family is involved in the judicial system and has favors being done for him by his court justice connections.
This is how Zimmerman has been able to float freely so long. Even when every sentence of his defense does not match the actual events that occurred.
Do not expect this Doug1 to come to grips with the reality even if there is footage of the event as it happened. He will say that it was doctored. He is certain of his assertion that Black people victimize Whites; not the other way around.
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The ultra far right is gonna defend Zimmerman and the ultra far left is gonna be all on Team Trayvon, mob emotional hysterics, lynch Zimmerman.
Neither proves nor indicates anything.
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JT–
Never said that or used it as a bit of evidence with respect to this individual persons case. And I don’t ever think like that. Also nothing frantic about my thinking nor writing on this. Pure canard.
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As for the last I get that from destructure, not my own looking. He seems to me to be very reasonable and evidenced bases and in the first instance I trust he’s telling the truth. Are you saying you’ve extensively looked and he’s posted no link her to back up that claim of his? If you can disprove, then I’ll change my tune on that.
As to the first I’ve posted evidentiary links when first commenting on a part of this case on this blog but then don’t every time I reiterate due to someone ignoring all the evidence I’ve previously supplied. Do some work yourselves lazy f*cks. Read my posts on this subject up thread and prior threads.
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JT–
Black people do commit far far far more black white interracial violence that the other way around, according to hardly right wing Justice Department statistics, compiled in at least two very different ways.
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@Doug1111Do some work yourselves lazy f*cks.”
___
Doug, that is a totally uncalled for response, and especially in light of the fact that I have been nothing but civil with you.
Doug, as to your claim about restructure, the only evidence that I know of is
911 tapes
police reports
police video
eye/ear witness accounts.
What other evidence is there other than links to opinions from news sources or blogs?
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Some of Doug1’s best lines (just in response to the Trayvon case):
”
”
As Randy says teenagers commit one hell of a lot of crime and violent crime, especially black ones do.
What the hell are you talking about???? Black on white murder is very common.
…but also blacks are far less likely to be deferential and fully compliant to police when being arrested. Black men and often women too tend to easily fly into a rage when they feel they’re being dissed in any way by cops.
Well if by racist you mean that he’s aware that blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita including robberies and burglaries that his neighborhood had been plagued with over the last year and more, or that most in his neighborhood know/thought they were mostly committed by blacks, well yeah. That’s called knowing the facts.
Zimmerman didn’t shoot Trayvor because he wouldn’t stop and answer questions or because he was mouthing off to him. He shot him because he was pinned to the ground by the 6’2″ adolescent, being repeatedly beaten up. Shooting wasn’t the first thing Zimmerman did either. He yelled to the eyewitness for help, repeatedly.
”
”
I think you reveal much about yourself through the lines of your writing. You might want to step back and reflect on yourself.
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^^^^
Those are five distinct quotes.
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@ Doug1,
I hope you realize that it is my goal to break your racist will. It seems to be brittle and it will snap.
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@Doug and destructure:
I do not believe that there is any credible link to actual evidence that shows that the gun had a full magazine. In addition, it would be very easy to insert another fully loaded magazine. I think it is very possible that the first shot is 9mm and the second shot is +P.
It seems clear that there was/is enough credible evidence to have arrested GZ and let a judge and jury decide a verdict. –
But let me make one more assertion, Doug. GZ could not have been “pinned” down, and also somehow able to get his gun out of it’s holster. We can’t have it both ways. And as you have said, GZ admits he shot Trayvon Martin. I also find it incredibly strange that GZ so neatly put his gun back in the waistband holster while the police were arriving. It’s a bit strange, don’t you think?
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One of the lead investigators on the case also doubts Zimmerman’s version of events and wanted to charge him that night with manslaughter. But Chris Serino was overruled by the Florida attorney’s office.
Richard Kurtz, the funeral director who prepared Martin’s body, has also weighed in, saying there were no signs of injuries on the boy’s hands that might have suggested he’d punched someone.
“The only thing that I was able to see was the gunshot wound,” Kurtz said. “I could not see evidence like he had been punching somebody as the news media say he was punching . . . It just did not add up to me.”
In recent days, details have emerged about Martin being suspended from school three times, including for having a baggie with marijuana remnants in this backpack.
But Zimmerman’s past brushes with the law were arguably more serious. He was charged in 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery of a law enforcement officer, and his ex-fiancée also successfully filed for a domestic violence restraining order against him.
Neighbours have also complained that he had a habit of targeting young black boys in his neighbourhood watch duties.
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1153817–trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-looks-uninjured-in-florida-police-video
Things aren’t looking good for Zimmerman, as if they ever did.
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/george-zimmermans-crumbling-story-part-3-the-detective/2012/03/29/gIQA3NvAjS_blog.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop
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Right. The Crown attorney. This hit the very top of the chain. And explains the legal limbo that we are now in with Zimmerman.
I hope someone is accountable for this injustice. And I hope that hundreds of millions of Americans realize the level of social injustice in America.
This needs to be flushed out to prevent the festering wound, which is systemic racism, to inflict millions of more Black Americans. Future generations need to learn from this insanity and put a grind to white privilege. Legal, economic, media, you name it.
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vanishingpoint
Witnesses saw tray on top of zman and there’s no reason to switch mags. But you can believe whatever you want.
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Herneith
Hang on. I thought you guys were saying it was the “racist police” who were covering for Zman. Now, it turns out the investigator on this case wanted charge him with manslaughter. It sounds like someone be owing the poe lease an apology,
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By the way, I mentioned that on my blog a week ago.
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Destructure,
Why for helping to bungle Trayvon’s investigation with legal nepotism?
Poe lease is more like Puhleeze.
SMH.
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JT–
Stand by all of them. Why shouldn’t I far leftist/
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Oh, I see. It’s gone from being a racist conspiracy by evil genius cops to a bungled investigation by barney fife. Oh, how things change depending on the narrative you guys want to tell.
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Destructure,
Zimmerman’s dad is a judge.
Sanford is the size of 54 000
Possibilities that both the police are underqualified white trash hillbillies and his dad pulled strings in the 6 hour arrest are mutually likely. And they are certainly not mutually exclusive.
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JT
Are you racist?
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@JT
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12/1263650.html
Decent number of High School grads,not that many college grads. Fairly middle class city. Still looking for zip code specific for that area, of the incident, since that area could have the more high school grads or least high school grads of the cities. Also, please don’t assume it’s the lower income White people holding the grudges, there are college grads with good jobs that can have the same sort of hatred.
@destructure and @doug1111 Seriously….
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Destructure,
No. I’m a race realist. Not the way you define it though.
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@ Deedee7789,
Thanks for the demographic information.
And you are quite right about the college grads part. My bad for saying only a certain type of white people can be hateful.
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JT
After the kind of racial slurs you just used, you’ve lost the moral authority to call anyone hateful.
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@JT
Thanks for your opinion.
@Doug1
But Florida passed law saying that you can use an weapon in self defense or something like that. it was in some handbook.
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Monica on Whites Should be Suspicious ab…
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Today Leogane
John Piper on Trayvon Martin
Whites Should be Suspicious about Trayvon Martin’s Death
Posted on March 20, 2012 by Bob Bixby
*3/23 editorial note: George Zimmerman’s father is white and his mother is Latina. Some readers are all bent out of joint about me referring to him as a white. His hispanic roots do nothing to alter the point of my thesis, and it could be reasonably argued that Zimmerman enjoys “white privilege.” With that stated, I have left the article as I originally posted it.
s
Trayvon Martin
There is a reason why African Americans are rallying around the senseless death of an unarmed boy. It is not only because it was senseless; senseless deaths happen often. It is because there are split seconds in America’s aging history that freeze time and expose horrifying realities underneath the skin of an outwardly racially enlightened country.
Those momentous split seconds are the blink of an eye judgment calls individuals (whether neighborhood protectors, police, or private citizens) make when they decide to use force against a suspect or a presumed threat. In the case of Trayvon Martin, the young man was not even a bona fide suspect, but in mere seconds his innocent life was jettisoned from Skittles to bullets by the trigger-happy will of a prejudiced white man. From the bright colors of hope and life to the cold, steely reality of another man’s judgment.
White people should care. As a white pastor raised in Africa and France and spending the first ten years of my adult ministry in Europe before coming to a racially divided city in Illinois, I have come to marvel at the appalling lack of empathy whites have for black feelings. Unless it is politically expedient, there will be little mention of the story until blacks themselves demand attention. Furthermore, it should be vexing to righteous souls that professing Christians cannot disentangle themselves from political and cultural biases and practice the Christian grace of weeping with those who weep. White Christians cannot understand that they should do more than weep with the relatives of the slain teen, but they should weep with the black community. They wish instead to regard every white on black crime as a normal crime, but a mere accident of color. Therefore, they do not understand the community that clusters around Trayvon. They pity a death, but they do not sympathize with Trayvon’s community.
But white Christians should not merely pity the unfortunate loss of life, they should vocally sympathize with the anxiety of the black man in this country by recognizing that though they cannot unwhite themselves, they can at least acknowledge two basic privileges that empower white young men.
1. Whites enjoy racial solidarity without even working for the privilege. Whites are genuinely intrigued by the way blacks rally around an unknown black teen and stir up national emotions on black-related issues. While blacks work hard for racial solidarity, whites are often insulted by that effort and scorn it as sour grapes; black young people unwilling to fully enjoy the rewards of civil rights purchased by their fathers just because they had to deal with some mean whites. But what whites do not realize is that they actually have racial solidarity already by the sheer force of majority. Thus, a white boy in a hoodie with Skittles in his pocket is not automatically deemed suspicious.
2. Secondly, an empowering asset that white young men enjoy is the benefit of the doubt. Women do not clutch their purses when they walk by. And if they inexplicably kill a boy one hundred pounds lighter and armed with iced tea, they get the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt is incredibly empowering and to be stripped of it is to be oppressed. Many young black men are still oppressed.
It is too easy and not honest for whites to dismiss the charges of racial profiling from Trayvon’s family as political opportunism by disgruntled blacks. While most whites are also grieved by the death of Trayvon Martin and would not be at all unhappy if his killer were incarcerated for life as soon as it can be proven that he is guilty, they still cannot sympathize with the community rage among blacks. They are almost condescending in the way they remind the grieving black community about “due process”. The assumption, of course, is that “due process” will not fail to deliver justice (an assumption not readily shared by many blacks), so with clinical and dispassionate reservation they calmly call for a thorough investigation and fail to see how biases ingrained in their psyche have bled them of sympathy.
It is unfair to the white community to think that they want a murderer to go free. And most thoughtful blacks are not prepared to accuse whites of deliberately preferring the murderer to the innocent. However, they do suspect whites of letting the murderer go free at the expense of justice because they are unable to be just. I share this suspicion. Whites are often unable to react justly in the blink of an eye because of their latent prejudices. And this is what should scandalize all of us.
Fifty thousand ardent fans watch the baseball umpire call a man out. Thirty thousand fans of that player’s team would swear on the Bible that their player was safe. The other twenty thousand would be just as unwaveringly confident that the umpire got it right. All fifty thousand fans would be equally sincere. And certain. Their entire conception of the call is shaped by their emotions.
When a black kid wearing a hoodie gets shot a judgment call is made on the scene by the man with the gun and the badges that inspect the death scene later. Usually those calls are made in the blink of an eye, snap decisions that are often irreversible. Should we give a toxicology test to the shooter? Should we impound the car for further investigation? Should we be suspicious of the shooter? Etc. Tragically, the perspective of the scene is too often determined by the bias of emotion and white policemen too often with all sincerity cannot presume that a black boy did not have it coming one way or another. Hard questions are not asked. Careful inspection is not done. Emotions ruled the split second decisions.
Christians are sad that a boy died, but this is not enough and, in my opinion, it fails to grasp the real burden that our black brothers and sisters live with. We should recognize the burden of living in a society where their skin color can drastically influence the uncontrolled impulses of adrenaline-powered emotion in hearts that harbor racism toward them.
Some have tried to show the suspiciousness of the shooting by removing the issue of skin color from the scenario in order to make the case that common sense is on the side of Trayvon’s parents. They say that if we imagined all the people were gray that Trayvon’s death would be highly suspect. I agree with the conclusion, but the bare fact remains (and this is what all black people know): a black boy was killed by a white man (or white latino).
This particular killing is so disturbing because, as I have said, it is in the heat of the moment when real feelings and biases are evident. Tolerance, magnanimity, fairness, equanimity, humility, and respect can all be calculated, construed, mimicked, planned, and pre-meditated. And this is certainly progress for the black community because there was a time when even these basic qualities were not expected from the white majority toward the black minority. But it is in the heat of the moment when the adrenalin is rushing, in snap decisions, that the undiluted feelings of a man are exposed.
Blink of the eye judgment calls reveal the secrets of the heart. Christians of all ethnicities must understand this reality. White Christians in America — specifically — should be overtly sympathetic to the uneasiness among blacks because of this reality. It is true that there is no way to prove that Zimmerman would not have shot and killed a white boy in those same circumstances. But what can be proved is that he (white) shot and killed a black boy. And the boy was shot down in circumstances that would normally seem obvious to any clearheaded and dispassionate person as deeply suspicious.
I have begun to realize that my knee-jerk reaction is not the same as many of my white friends: I instinctively think something is afoul when I hear of these killings. I could be wrong, yes, and due process may prove that to be so, but what is clear is that most whites in the USA don’t instinctively think murder and most blacks do. What also seems readily apparent to all who read the reports is that the local police shared the snap assessments of most whites, seemingly dismissing the knee-jerk and natural reaction of a black father that his son had been unjustly gunned down. Instead the knee-jerk reaction of the police was to dignify the knee-jerk reaction of the killer.
Blink of the eye judgments reveal biases. But life is far too complex for blink of the eye assessments, particularly if the judge has his finger on a trigger. As a father of a feisty little five-year-old (who just so happens to be bi-racial) I have seen how previous experiences with my son have prejudiced teachers and adults in their snap judgments of any situation that he is involved in. Their bias gives them a “certainty” about their hasty conclusion and too many times my boy has been the victim of unjust decisions. Thankfully, the sentencing was merely a snide remark, criticism of my parenting, or a verbal scolding. In Trayvon’s case it was a bullet to the chest.
Whites who understand the nature of man need to step up and say this was a racial profiling and the boy would probably still be alive if he were white.
This is not the assumption of race-baiting black politicians. And it is a misunderstanding of “innocent until proven guilty” that is often proffered as justification for the unsympathetic feelings toward the black community. We’re not even talking about guilt yet. We’re talking about legitimate suspicion. One can be a legitimate suspect, but not guilty until proven guilty. If Zimmerman were black I think he’d be a suspect. All those who clamor for “due process” should understand that due process for many killings often begins with legitimate suspects when there is even less evidence of foul play!
This is an educated assumption made by people who understand people. Christians need to demand a thorough investigation of all the officers involved and the shooter needs to be treated as a murder suspect. It is scandalous to my mind that he has not been arrested and we all know that if he were black he’d be behind bars right now. We have a long history of not giving the benefit of the doubt to black men and instinctively not aggressively pursuing justice if the victim is black. I have several black friends who have been stopped, arrested, and/or interrogated as if they were liars when there was no other clear-headed reason for stopping them versus the white guys in the vicinity. These good men, Christians all of them, know that they’d be in a holding cell right now if Trayvon had been white and they had been the self-appointed neighborhood watchman.
The plight of the black man is definitely getting better in this country. We have a black Attorney General. We have a black president. But the reality stands that blacks are still a minority and black men know that their whole destiny could be determined by the snap, adrenalin-fueled decision of a white man and protected by the knee-jerk analyses of men who have never had their sinful racism rooted from the deep of their hearts. Civil liberties do not change instincts. And black men know (as we all do) that when instincts take over, the real person steps forward.
It’s instinctual to argue back if a guy gets out of his car and talks tough to you, demanding to know why you are in the neighborhood. But Trayvon did not get the right to yield to his instincts and live to explain himself. A mere seventeen-year-old, he didn’t realize that the instincts of the white man confronting him were also taking over. And his instincts are licensed to kill. In the name of self-defense. Even though from all the data that we can gather he initiated the contact with the teen despite being specifically told not to. Even though he stepped out of the safety of his car. Even though he was bigger. Even though he was armed. Even though the boy apparently was on a cell phone just minutes before talking to a girl friend. Even though….. But Trayvon was supposed to meekly say, “Yes, sir.”
Millions of blacks mourn the loss of Trayvon Martin not only because he was shot dead and will not ever be able to grow into manhood, but because in his last moments he, in fact, was a man and therefore paid for it with his life. His manhood instincts certainly compelled him to stand up for himself, but he should have known what one black father instructed his unborn son:
You will not survive your encounter, so it is important to remember to show investigators, the courts, and critics alike that you were in fact the victim. This will be difficult as the assumption is ever-present that somehow, in some way, you did something wrong. That perhaps there was something different you could have, should have done. Perhaps you should have worn something different or walked in a less suspicious manner. I assure you, my son, this is not the case. Regardless of your actions, you were not meant to survive. All you can hope for is an easier postmortem investigation. This will be of some comfort to your mother and I as we cope through your loss, and so I ask you to follow these directions carefully.
And then he proceeds to tell him to always assume that his assailant is the police and to meekly clasp his fingers behind his head and prepare to die. Hyperbolic? Perhaps, but the hyperbole makes a point completely unnecessary in the white community: A black boy in a hoodie triggers trigger-happiness.
Or is it even worse? A black boy triggers trigger-happiness? But what spiritual Christians should know beyond a shadow of doubt: split second decisions reveal the true biases of the heart. This is why white Christians should stand up and share in the agony of the black community. We do not want an unjust lynching. We do not want retaliation. We want justice. We who understand human nature should stand with Trayvon’s dad and demand an investigation. We are American Christians. We know our past, we know our sins, and we rightly suspect that the shooter and the police were making blink of an eye decisions that cannot escape the prejudices of the heart. Like a hellish domino effect, one snap judgment call after another springing out of the thumping heart of prejudice can end with a bang.
And a boy lies dead on the street. Skittles and iced tea mingled with blood
I got this from http://bobbixby.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/whites-should-be-suspicious-about-trayvon-martins-death/
This article is the exact reason why Trayvon was immediately ”thuggified” like Abagond wrote in this post.
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Deedee
“Slightly over half of the race of the offenders was White.”
If you want to get into this stuff you must understand that all hispanic criminals are classified as white. All hispanic victims are classified as hispanic. If a white guy yells racist slurs at a hispanic and then kills him – racist white hate crime. If hispanic yells racist slurs against black, kills him – racist white hate crime.
I emailed the Bureau of Statistics and supposedly they are going to include a hispanic perpetrator classification on the next study – we’ll see.
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@ Everyone,
An interview with Trayvon’s brother, Jahvaris Fulton. “It’s Baffling”
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57407537/trayvon-martins-brother-sticks-up-for-him/
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Oh, how things change depending on the narrative you guys want to tell.
Are you insane? One person responded to that post and all of a sudden everything’s changed? Bring back Prohibition, stop drinking and typing!!
Are you racist?
Most if not all white people are, whatever their ilk or political persuasion. Some, like the alcoholic are aware of this and try to combat it. They realize it is a constant and daily battle to overcome. Others are aware of this and don’t care one way or the other unless called a racist, or perceive themselves as being the recipient of ‘reverse’ racism(such as not getting a promotion). There are those who know they are racist , and will do everything they can to preserve white privileges by hook or crook. Then there are the race realist loons who are basically out to lunch. I think, JT falls into the first category. At least he/she is trying.
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“Hispanic” simply means having a Spanish surname or originating (or having ancestry that originates) from a country where Spanish is the primary language. Thus “Hispanics” can be white, “Hispanics” can be black, mixed or Mestizo…and even Asian. It’s why that word is problematic as a supposed racial classification. Cameron Diaz, Martin Sheen, Rita Hayworth, Lynda Carter, Alexis Bledel, and Christina Aguilera are famous “Hispanics.” As are Sammy Sosa, Zoe Saldana, Celia Cruz, Pele, Alberto Fujimori, Franklin Chang Diaz, Helen Mack Chang, Jose Watanabe, and Sonia Chang Diaz. Ethnically — or, rather, racially — these people run the gamut. If some of them were in Selma, Alabama in 1956 they’d be pointed to the back of the bus, whereas others could publicly associate with the likes of George Wallace, and no one would raise an eyebrow.
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Herneith
You certainly sound like an expert on “racism”. But your “expertise” sounds self-serving since you overlooked the racial slurs JT made in order to pat them on the back.
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@ Bulanik
Yup.
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@ Bulanik,
Oh yes. The infamous double standard. Brought to you by the same people who say we are inferior, but yet racism is just in our heads. The devil speaks with a forked tongue.
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Also the whole Spike Lee debacle about him retweeting Zimmerman’s address, yet Roseanne Barr did the SAME thing. Of course the Black man is the one who gets the virtual lynching. Though both acts were reprehensible. If we were a FRACTION as stupid as these people THINK we are, we would have went extinct a long time ago. Lord knows they’ve tried.
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@ DarqBeauty,
LOL. Isn’t it ludicrous?
This is brought to you from the same people who are trying to justify Trayvon’s murder.
SMH!
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Ludicrous doesn’t even BEGIN to describe this sick and twisted pathology! These are some sad pitiful people. If we didn’t exist, they would descend into class war fare ala the Star Bellied Sneetches. We provide a useful scapegoat for all that’s wrong in their world.
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We provide a useful scapegoat for all that’s wrong in their world.
”
”
@ DarqBeauty,
Which is because you are the subject of envy for white people. Not in a way in which they are open about but there are many holes in their existence that you don’t have. Blacks remind them that the holes are gaping.
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@ JT
I have an inkling as to why they despise us. And it’s NOT for the fallacious reasons that they claim.
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http://jenhatmaker.com/blog/2012/03/26/dear-trayvons-mom#.T3OvGP6gkB7.facebook
Probably not the place to post but a woman named Jen Hatmaker wrote a blog post as a letter to Trayvon Martin’s mother. It very well written and sincere…
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This is no more accurate than anything else. The deification of Trayvon is just as bad as demonizing him. He was acting suspiciously by any measure, and was no angel by any stretch. Health will eventually come out one way or other, but all the experts are sickening – they are treating it like a political debate. Worse, they ALWAYS focus on the extremely rare (that IS why it is in the news) of a non-Black killing a Black. To categorize a Jewish Peruvian as white is absurd. If they are convinced that race is such a big factor, show pictures of all the white and Hispanic victims of Black crime. And while they are at it, cool the altar boy pictures. Trayvon was a whole different person. Charles Manson and Hitler probably looked good at 13 also.
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So is it Saint Martin and Devil Zimmerman yet?
Or wait – is it Hero Zimmerman and Bad Boy Martin?
Have we made political hay from this enough?
Evidence is starting to pile up. We’re ready to start the bonfires and march out to the barricades. Which mob of sanctimonious profiteers gets to hail Truth as they beat the racists / other racists to death?
Maybe we should just arm everyone and give everyone license to kill freely.
This is the only thing both sides want.
Let the chips fall where they may.
I’m hoping the one side turns out to be true: Martin was easily offended and sketchy and beat down on Zimmerman and then Zimmerman shot him in justified self-defense.
Or wait – maybe it’ s better for Zimmerman to have been a trigger-happy Hispanic racist out to exterminate the Black Race.
Any bets yet? Anyone want to stake their life on the outcome? Anyone want to put themselves in the shoes of the cops?
Come on. Either side. Stake your whole reputation. If you think this is a Case to Make Your Case, then stake your whole reputation. If you lose, if the facts come out different, then never discuss race in public ever again.
If you’re not willing to do this after so much bullshit, then you’re nakedly profiteering from the death of a young man.
The Al Sharptons and Newt Gingriches of the world should be put in an arena and told that neither gets out until there’s only one left alive. And then we kill the last one alive.
Political profiteers. Everyone.
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So when do the Hispanic – Black pogroms start?
How long until some 63-year-old Hispanic guy in X city is beaten and gunned down by some black kid or kids and the defence is – We Were Angry About Zimmerman?
How long until every second Cuban guy in South Florida is confronting black men walking alone and demanding to know why they’re there?
This country is so thoroughly fucked.
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@gorbachev:
“Anyone want to put themselves in the shoes of the cops?”
I actually had an interesting conversation with some police I personally know well (couple are my class mates from high school) about this case. None of them, that is NOT ONE of the finnish cops I have talked to can understand why anyone who has killed someone is released like that.
If you have a guy who has killed someone he will not walk like that. He will be locked up at least for 48 hours minimum and if there are any suspicions or uncertain details in the case, cops can and usually do go to court and ask more detention time in order to investigate the case without the suspect/detained individual running around trashing the evidence or influencing on witnesses etc.
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Yeah okay.
He should have been arrested, but in the States, there are weird ideas about this. The whole Stand Your Ground law is about empowering citizens – who are allowed to carry guns – to stand and kill people who attack them. And this isn’t schoolyard rules. If you start a fight, back off, and then the guy defending himself continues to come after you – you get to shoot him if your life is threatened.
There’s no “He insulted me first so I get to kill him” rule. Who started it is less relevant. It’s about threat.
If you think this is bad, wait until some kids try “knockout king” with some guy with a gun. When he rounds and executes a few kids – for beating on him for no reason – and this will almost assuredly happen – then you’re going to get this all over again.
You can blame three things for this.
– A heightened atmosphere of racial hatred, these days dished out pretty much equally by all sides, and growing into a three-way, not a two-way, with each side justifying it by whatever historically/politically/socially convenient method available at hand
– a fractured political system incapable of dealing honestly about any of this; either blacks are demons or saints, or whites are devils who Owe or beleaguered taxpayers on the edge of financial ruin facing an army of black death. Not much room for nuance.
Or honesty. From anyone. The most irrational voices in this case come from black America. Don’t worry; tomorrow it will be white America. I give it a week.
– frustrated individuals growing more and more disgusted and retreating into their oen personal worlds .
SO how are legal systems supposed to cope with the BS, lies, and half-truths spouted by all sides?
I say: obviously, the only thing to do is arm everyone, let the killing start in earnest, and do what the black and white racists want:
Massive fences.
don’t fret over black and white America over there in Finland.
We truly deserve each other. A good civil war would sort it out properly. Once we’ve sated our bloodlust sufficiently, and convinced ourselves we’ve won despite the burning cities and chaos, we’ll get back to more regular pursuits like regular old-school prejudice.
For now, lies and half truths rule.
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JT–
I stand by each and every one of those statements PC twit. They’re all accurate.
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@ Doug,
You wake up to hearing a Black superior every day of the last 3 years. Barack Obama is your political, intellectual, emotional and spiritual superior. Do not tell us that you have never met a Black superior.
He went from food stamps to the head of Harvard Law Review and you went from a trust fund baby to a failed law student to some Finance guy that nobody knows about from Standford. He is politically and intellectually brilliant and he destroyed your party in the 2008 election. He is the Commander-in-Chief of the wealthiest nation to ever exist and you are here trying to convince us that Trayvon deserved to die. Look at how superior he is to you. Confront it.
Do not claim that YOU have not seen a Black superior. You have and you will continue to see Black superiors to you. Whether Obama is reelected or otherwise. Black intellectual superiors are everywhere. Especially, when we’re comparing them to your intellect.
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vanishingpoint–
Closed mind rubbish. First of all we don’t or any I don’t know where his gun was. I might have been tucked into his waistband or in a sweater or pants pocket. Don’t know. Trayvon might have been straddling Zimmerman over his hips. Don’t know that level of detail. Zimmerman and his family have said his gun somehow started to become visible to Trayvon in their struggles together. That might have partly dislodged it. Don’t know.
The vast emotional investment by blacks to show/make Zimmerman not innocent due to valid self defense are is amazing. No fair mindedness at all.
I just don’t want to see mob injustice and an effective trial in the very biased towards Trayvon mass media, though the tide is slowly beginning to turn towards at least a little fair mindedness.
As well I really like Florida’s Stand Your Ground law. Not that it’s necessary for Zimmerman’s self defense case in this case because he was pinned down and couldn’t flee. I think black flash mobs who target random whites and Asians to beat up this summer as a racial hate crime “expression” should have to fear being shot by whites and Asians who stand their ground or can’t escape and don’t want to have to just grin and bear it.
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I stand by each and every one of those statements PC twit. They’re all accurate.
What’s PC? Presidents choice?:
http://www.presidentschoice.ca/LCLOnline/home.jsp
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Sam-
Probably they don’t know the true facts as opposed to Media misdirection and probably you haven’t told them them.
Zimmerman was arrested at gunpoint, no doubt Mirandized, involuntarily taken down to the police station and detained for 7.5 hours while he was being questioned, they were seeking other evidence, and were talking to attorney’s in the DA’s office. That’s being arrested by most understandings of that word. The Sanford police chose not to classify it as a formal arrest when they on the DA’s office advice decided not to charge him then, and released him.
Anglosphere law tends to give more rights to the criminally accused or suspected that continental European law.
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Herneith–
That’s somewhat of a distortion of what he said. Yes when asked by the notoriously not fair minded and snap judgment but sure she’s right Nancy Grace, he did say there were no signs of lacerations or bruising on Trayvon’s hands. That’s true. However he didn’t say that in his experience that means Trayvon couldn’t have been punching Zimmerman. Most of the time when you punch someone you don’t show injury in your hands. I also doubt if dead bodies produce bruising from moments before they die, though I won’t claim to know that.
Look, there are two eyewitness that there was a fight, and one (John) saw a good bit of it, was sure that Trayvon was on top during it pinning red sweater wearing Zimmerman down to the ground and punching him in the fact while he saw and heard Zimmerman screaming of help. After the shot he saw the guy who had been on top of the red sweater guy (Zimmerman) face down dead to the side of Zimmerman right after the gunshot.
That evidence is not contradicted by any eyewitness who say anything before the shot was fired, we have no reason to believe John is biased. There are ear witness opinions to the contrary but they are not well founded based on what they actually heard as opposed to concluded. As well they only became clearly conclusory contradictory after they had given evidence to the police and the media prompted and fed by Martin’s civil injury looking for a big payday lawyer Crump began a national campaign of angelfying Trayvon and vilifying Zimmerman.
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Posted this on the wrong thread. Meant to post this comment on this more current and currently active one. So here goes:
******
In weighing recent analyses from audio technicians etc. there’s a huge elephant in the room that doesn’t tend to get talked about much. That elephant doesn’t nearly so much apply to eyewitness, ear witnesses and others as to what their statements were on the night of the shooting or which have been expanded upon since in a consistent way, or the crime scene evidence taken that night etc.
However it does apply to purported witnesses and audio expert analysts who’ve surfaced long after this became a national cause celebre, particularly it they’re volunteers rather than experts a prosecutor’s office or the FBI etc. have gone to for judgments.
That is the enormous play this case as gotten as a major new Great White Defendant case (even though Zimmerman is obviously in just looking at him a pretty indio Hispanic), or “racism show trial” in the media, due to media bias. That makes anyone who shows up opining (or making stuff up) on the Team Trayvon side of evidence some kind of hero, while anyone who adds evidence to Zimmerman’s claim of self defense some kind of villain, certainly in the minds of by far most blacks in America and elsewhere, and also as portrayed by the media, or there’s at least great risk of that. Certainly no white person does himself any public opinion good and takes a risk if not either neutral or on Team Trayvon. Actually probably black people also take a risk as being seen as uncle Toms. Well nonetheless Zimmerman does have a black friend of ten years standing who’s been a character spokesman for him, and also opined as to who’s voice on the 911 tapes was screaming for help — Zimmerman’s. Gutsy guy. Admirable.
So I do think that has to be taken at least a bit into account in gauging the persuasiveness of audio experts who volunteer their expertise, getting themselves into the limelight. It would be less of a factor I think if audio experts were not volunteers but simply randomly chosen among the those professionally qualified and paid for their judgment by prosecutors or even the media, again if not prejudicially chosen.
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There’s an eyewitness named John who we have no reason to think might be heavily biased and who came forward immediately in the night of the gunshot who not only heard but also saw Zimmerman screaming for help while lying back down prone on the ground, getting punched in the face, and that’s by far more persuasive than some audio expert’s comparison of the 911 voice’s screaming for help to some generic teen male. Ummm, the vary a whole lot dog, those teenage voices, and adult male ones as well.
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Here’s the thing.
The black and leftist mantra of “just try him” about Zimmerman is rubbish.
Trying him is in effect imposing an enormous fine on him. I’m talking his legal defense costs if they’re gonna be quality and in such a high profile national media and black racism emotion case they’d better be. I’m also talking about the impact on his ability to earn money working full time for most employers while this is going on. That is real folks.
Of course he should nonetheless be tried if he’s probably guilty, in the interests of justice, as other criminal defendants should be.
But that’s the thing, probably guilty. I do think prosecutors should bring a criminal case against some they think is probably guilty or more so than that, without being sure that a jury will convict on a beyond a reasonable doubt standard. One can’t predict juries perfectly and that’s their job. But I don’t think prosecutors should for political reasons charge and try defendants on the basis that ther’s only a remote chance that their guilty. That’s what Nifong did in the Duke Lacrosse case and he’s been disbarred.
I think prosecutors, and this special prosecutor from Jacksonville Florida appointed by Florida’s government should only charge and prosecute Zimmerman if she honestly believes after impartially reviewing all the available evidence that he more likely than not is guilty of unjustifiable by self defense homicide.
So far I’m firmly convinced that the evidence doesn’t support such a conclusion. I think it’s pretty clear actually.
And I think Gorbachev, who I know from long internet commenting acquaintance and respect as very smart, very articulate, and generally of good judgment, in calling for trying Zimmerman while I suspect he has a very similar view to mine of where the weight of the evidence so far points, is pandering to the black and leftist mob. Which I don’t support.
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*Florida’s govenor
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@doug1111
“I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me,” Zimmerman told police.
John’s statement
He told the Orlando TV station WOFL that a guy wearing red yelled to him, “Help! Help!”
“I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said. “And then when I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass. I believe he was dead at that point.”
Do you see something odd here? Zimmerman himself said NO ONE would help him. No mentioning of a guy saying to stop and going to help. You would think he would remember someone responding to his cries for help, even if they didn’t try to get Martin off of him.
Also, I am not a voice technician and I wouldn’t assume you are either. Owen is court sanctioned and was pursued to do the testing, he didn’t just up and say hey I would do it. Both technicians are experts and one even helped to get a criminal prosecuted using that technology. Believe me I do not believe that the conclusions reached by the voice technicians is damning evidence that Zimmerman is guilty, forensics will tell the complete story. However, if PHYSICAL evidence comes out that support those technicians then it will make it more clear that Zimmerman was not being completely honest. I wouldn’t put full weight on just witness testimonies regardless of which side they stand on. I value hard evidence like forensics.
Also, we cannot determine bias for any witnesses really. No witness stands to gain anything for reporting what they saw so using bias to exclude most witness statements isn’t fair. However, inaccurate witness statement like 911 call 4 where the person reports seeing a “white shirt” should possible be ruled out since that witness was unsure of anything.
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JT to Doug
You wake up to hearing a Black superior every day of the last 3 years. Barack Obama is your political, intellectual, emotional and spiritual superior. Do not tell us that you have never met a Black superior.
You don’t understand the US political system. The president works for the people not the other way around. And the people are about to fire his ass in November.
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deedee–
You seem much more fair minded than most who lean to the Zimmerman is guilty side, and I respect that. My impression is that you’re black and if so given what I just said I respect that all the more. More in a bit.
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@dougie:
“Most of the time when you punch someone you don’t show injury in your hands.”
Yes you do, particulary when you punch somebodys nose in and almost kill someone with your hands like you claim. I have never punched anyone, that is punch not tickle, and not having no signs in my fists. Perhaps you have not really punched anyone so you can make this excuse too.
“I also doubt if dead bodies produce bruising from moments before they die, though I won’t claim to know that.”
Bodies do produce bruising and such when one is alive, so there should have been plenty of those on Trayvon. IF he really did fight the way you claim. And yes, bodies produce marks even after death but only for a short time.
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sam
Maybe there was bruising to the hands and maybe there wasn’t. I’d be more likely to believe the coroners opinion on that than the funeral home hired by tray’s family. Either way, I doubt someone would injure their hands breaking a nose and banging another’s guys head on the concrete.
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sam
But since you’re so adamant that fighting would bruise someone’s hands, why didn’t Zman’s hands show bruising in the video? After all, you claim Zman attacked tray. You claim fighting bruises the hands. And you claim Zman didn’t show any bruises in the video. It looks like you’ve been caught in the web of your own BS. Again.
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Doug,
Why are you STILL invested in this case?
Zimmerman will lose. He will go to prison.
Nothing you can do about it.
Accept it.
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Deedee_
I had a whole longish comment just swallowed by the blog either.
Well, I’ll soldier on I guess.
When Zimmerman said no one would help him I think he meant direct intervention in pulling Trayvone off him, rather than not calling 911. I think he believed people were calling 911 and he certainly knew he and that cops were coming. I think he feared he’d be in a coma from head bashed against the cement sidewalk or maybe dead before the arrived.
I think that’s plenty of reason to shoot with possibly and in this case in fact deadly effect, a black gang banger.
I hope much more of them get shot this upcoming black radomligly targeting whites and Asians social media flash mob black on white racial hate crime season.
You however don’t seem like this or supporting this. I’m sure most blacks don’t, Not sure most commenting on this site don’t.
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Truthbetold–
Such a fraudulent handle.
No, while it’s likely (but not certain) for Florida craven political reasons that Zimmerman will be tried, it’s extreemly unlikely that any competent defense attorney hired by him will allow through the voix dire preocessess enough black and leftist jurors to convict him.
He walks.
But trying him on present evidence is unjust, a bow to lynch mob black emotion, and despicable.
Stick a finger to the black and far leftist mob!!!!
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@ Doug
So, wait a minute. Are you saying Trayvon was a black gang banger?
So, in reality, it isn’t that violence bothers you. It’s just violence against Whites and Asians. Sigh.
You have a juvenile, xenophobic way of looking at the world. Call it an ad hominen, I call it a valid observation.
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@doug1111
Which is why I’m surprised that the police didn’t have Zimmerman elaborate more. Like telling in what ways no one helped, It could be interpreted in so many ways from his simple sentence that he meant physical or by calling. Recall that during the 911 call he didn’t know his current location so he may not have been sure if cops would reach him quickly. He may not have known that people were calling 911 and in that instance he may have felt that pulling the gun was the last resort in order to survive. That would sort of work with the witness statements of him telling the women to call the police afterwards.
But if he did know that people were calling 911 then wouldn’t it also be plausible that he knew he just had to defend himself long enough until the cops arrived? Yes he may have had his head being bashed on the ground but the screams on the 911 tapes last for more than 30 seconds. I wouldn’t assume that a harsh head bashing for that long would allow Zimmerman to retain motor controls. Also, wouldn’t blood have been flowing in his mouth possibly from his nose injury and make his screams more varied (some distance between them) as he possibly had to spit out blood? I just need more information because I can really imagine many scenarios could have played out vs what actually happened.
Also, yes I am black and I am also female. I can have some bias but I try to not let it cloud my judgement. I don’t feel that any Abagond readers support any violence regardless of the race of the offender.
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Doug’s entire reasoning is pure speculation.
He’d lose in a court of law.
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@ truthbetold
I guess that’s why he gave up being a lawyer.
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@ Someguy
I sense deep resentment, failure and shame in his words, his lack of empathy for a dead child, his quest to prove that the killing was justified.
How does one live with oneself?
Someguy, after all is said and done, Zimmerman’s life is over.
If he is proven innocent, he’ll have to disappear, change his name, grow a beard, lose/gain weight, anything to hide from his actions.
If he’s guilty, he’ll sleep in prison with one eye open for the rest of his life.
You think he thinks about that fateful night and has regrets?
You think he wonders where things went so wrong and how could he have changed it?
You think is mom and dad wonder where they have failed him?
Trayvon is dead. Parents will mourn, possibly forever, but his death will be immortalized in black history, like Emmett Till, as the personification of xenophobia, racism and white supremacy run amok.
Whites will deny, as they usually do, that this had NOTHING to do with them. Latinos will push the ” Spanish Jew” card to distance themselves from the harsh, unforgiving, black ire.
And blacks will look at their young black boys and wonder if and when their day will come.
And most importantly, America will sweep it under the rug as a mistake, a tragedy, a “crazy”, “kooky” spanish guy with a John Wayne complex. They’ll fight tooth and nail to keep up the facade of fairness in this God forsaken slave country.
And they’ll be successful.
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If you think it’s bad now, just wait until we’re able to genetically re-engineer our children. Who do you think people will become then?
The Chinese, of course! ;-P
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@destructure:
“But since you’re so adamant that fighting would bruise someone’s hands, why didn’t Zman’s hands show bruising in the video? After all, you claim Zman attacked tray. You claim fighting bruises the hands. And you claim Zman didn’t show any bruises in the video. It looks like you’ve been caught in the web of your own BS. Again.”
No BS here like your entire posts.
“why didn’t Zman’s hands show bruising in the video? After all, you claim Zman attacked tray.”
Yes he did and he had a gun.
“You claim fighting bruises the hands. And you claim Zman didn’t show any bruises in the video.”
A real fighting does leave bruises and marks. And yes, he did not.
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Yeah yeah. Whatever. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?
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To set the record straight, I’ve never had a trust fund in my life.
My father, bless him, did totally pay for private education soup to nuts through law school. It was a whole lot less expensive then, even gov’t statistics inflation adjusted. Again, thanks dad.
That didn’t get me into those places. Much richer grade school private school acquaitances of mine didn’t get into so good a prep school as I did. Much less so good a college.
But I did emerge with zero debt. Thanks dad, really, thanks.
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sam–
You’re a fucking idologolically based liar. Objective truth means nothing to you. You’re a thorough Marxist.
So far as I know and I know a bit but not totally, bruising happens because smallest blood vessel capillaries get broken in physical fight, and then the beating heart keeps pushing blood to those broken smallest regions of the blood circulating and feeding system.
When the heart stops suddenly as in a near or on heart gunshot wound, this circulation of heart beat pumped blood would also stop. Seems to me. Just being Stanford smart and all, not being medically specialized trained.
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Gorbachev
You’re ‘everybody is at fault’ idea is not interesting and not novel. You show me one national news story of a black on white racist crime and we’ll talk.
“Or honesty. From anyone. The most irrational voices in this case come from black America. Don’t worry; tomorrow it will be white America. I give it a week.”
So we’re going to have who? David Duke leading whites in rallies?
Wanna make a wager on that?
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Someguy–
From what I can tell Trayvon was attracted to the idea and on the verge of becoming one or had already without proof?? Who knows??
I think from the evidence that he was very capable of wanting to and being able to beat Zimmerman up.
That in and of itself doesn’t prove he did. It does indicate it’s not inconceivable Martin’s lawyer Crumb has spun the all too receptive to this media.
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deedee–
Are you really sixteen and black???
If so I’m really impressed with you.
But are you telling the truth??? If so I imagine you smartie pants can figure out how to prove so to me!
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doug1
I was thinking the same thing about deedee. She does seem a lot smarter than most of the people on this blog.
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@doug
Then perhaps you should use your “Stanford smarts” or your “girlfriend” to spell “ideologically” correctly.
I’m not a pathologist, but post-mortem bruising can occur as a result of post-mortem lividity causing continued bleeding into the the flesh. Remember, because the heart’s not pumping blood, the red blood cells sink, causing a purplish look in the extremities. So you can have post-mortem bleeding asmuch as three hours after death.
Hmm. Annie Palmer doesn’t sound like an Arab name. Just make sure you use your left hand. Islam is picky like that.
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@dougie:
It seems that you got that ITs the Commies red scare again. Let me sooth you.
“You’re a fucking idologolically based liar.”
No I am not.
“Objective truth means nothing to you.”
Yes it does as far as there is or can be one.
“You’re a thorough Marxist.”
No I am not.
“Just being Stanford smart and all, not being medically specialized trained.”
Perhaps you should have gone to the medical school then as it seems that Stanford smarts are not enough here.
Bodies can and do get bruising immediately after death, that is untill the blood settles and begins to set in the body.
However, if there are no bruises on Trayvon nor in mr Zimmerman, where the heck is your vicious fighting, you know, the one that got mr Zimmerman almost killed? Where they shadow boxing or what? I mean, you and your buddies here have been screaming to high hell how Trayvon was smashing poor mr Zimmerman all over the place, so much so that mr Zimmerman could not do anything else than shoot that horrible attacker dead.
So, where are the bruises, broken nose on mr Zimmerman and traces on Trayvons hands? According to you he was beating mr Zimmerman almost death with his bare hands. Why there are no marks in those hands? Why mr Zimmerman has zero blood on him right after the terrible fight for his life?
Because there was no such fight at all. He just shot the kid dead perhaps after a scuffle, if even that.
“From what I can tell Trayvon was attracted to the idea and on the verge of becoming one or had already without proof?? Who knows??”
So it just an racist idea in your head that he must have been a gang banger or was going to be anyway. After all, you have no proof of that at all. One rather convincing evidence against the very idea that Trayvon was a gang member is mr Zimmerman. He is alive. Had Trayvon been a gang member, mr Zimmerman would have been dead after the antics he did on that night.
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And, it all must mean the teenager …. deserved to DIE!!!!!!!!
No. But it lends credence to Zman’s claim that Tray was acting like he was on drugs. If you’ll recall, that’s what he told the dispatcher. I suspect Tray didn’t go out to get skittles and a drink. I suspect that was an excuse to leave the house and get high. I just don’t see a teen walking 2 miles round trip in the rain at night for some candy.
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Bulanik
I don’t know anything about the hacker. But I think the whole point of bringing out Tray’s background has to do with Zman’s 911 call, Zman said Tray was suspicious, up to no good, acting like he was on drugs, etc. But if Tray had a history of stealing and drug abuse and the toxicology report comes back positive then it shows Tray really was high and acting strangely. And while that certainly doesn’t justify shooting it shows that there was a legitimate reason to be concerned about Tray’s behavior.
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I just don’t understand this.
I may not be a White American, but I cannot understand how even a self respecting White Supremacist, would NOT support frying Zimmy.
I see it happening, I just don’t understand it.
_________________________________________
To da structures and doug with the misspelled Duckies:
Common sense in the USA is more often found in the skulls covered with a darker skin.
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Bulanik–
Trayvon’s gold grill is thugwear Bulanik, and goes to his character and likely state of mind.
No his having committed 22 burglaries in the last month, if the case, doesn’t mean he deserves to cold blooddedly murdered. But no one was cold blooded murdered in this case.
Gold lower grill is aspirational at least thug wear period. Dog.
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Doug said:
“Gold lower grill is aspirational at least thug wear period. Dog.”
Douglas, every time I begin to feel something akin to empathy for you, you screw it up.
You’ve been so severely brainwashed that you don’t know your arse from a hole in the ground. Growing up privileged has done a number on your psyche and it shows. Even worse than Randy.
Your failed and racist attempts to “blackify” the most intelligent voices here are cowardly. You have no intellectual merit except repeating the same tired drivel you learned from your Grand Dragon.
You know what’s funny about you, Douglas? We blacks were enslaved and used as chattel. But you are the one who is oppressed.
You fight every day, tooth and nail to prove absolutely nothing.
Zimmerman caused a worldwide, yes, it’s all over now, reaction and discussion about race, hatred and white supremacy.
That’s what you’re so afraid of, isn’t it? Human unity.
Which means, judging from your vomitus, that you won’t be included.
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Brainwashed by whom?????
The brainwashing factory here in America is wholly owned by the left.
The only place where that might not be totally true is in the deep south. Where I’ve never lived. As per my may self revealing statements on here.
The actual truth is i UN brainwashed myself. From leftist immersion.
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@Doug111
Trayvon’s gold grill is thugwear Bulanik, and goes to his character and likely state of mind.
I presume then that to snare your much much much younger woman, you wear attire that belies your age? I am presuming you dont present yourself as a dried up much much much older man. Either that or the size of your wallet speaks louder than words ever could…
What you are saying here is for example, if a female is scantily clad, it indicates that she is ‘up for it’ and that any fate that befalls her i.e. being harrassed, indecently assaulted, raped is her fault?
Lets see whether you can be consistent and honest here now…
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I hope many more gang banging social media “flash mob” random whites targeting for savage beat downs out of racial animus are shot (I actually don’t want killed, shot is enough) in states with “Stand your ground” laws. Which I hope all states adopt.
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Blacks doing such. Well anyone, but it’s always blacks.
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Yeah I do tons of typos.
I type super fast and well not so completely accurately. I comment a lot from time to time and do so rapidly and yes kind of typo carelessly.
The end.
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truthbetold
Oh my god. Really??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I’m soooooooooooooooooooooooooo crushed.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The actual truth is i UN brainwashed myself. From leftist immersion.
So you are saying that your ‘brain’ is now unbalanced?
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@Bulanik
I’m guessing that this is a ham-sandwich-eating sort of person from the Middle East?
Oh yes. I hope she doesnt wear a hijab in Doug’s presence or in the U.S lest she be mistaken for some kind of miltant terrorist…
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faux comment
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@doug1111
faux comment
What is? How so?
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@doug1111
If you are referring to my comment about the hijab then it is not a false comment…after all, in your words it and goes to [the} character and likely state of mind.,
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“Bulank
I also read somewhere that Trayvon Martin sometimes wore a “gold grill”.
Someone put me right, but is that a dental wear put on the teeth to make them look shiny gold?
And, why should this dental fashion accessory be relevant and justify his killing in some way?”
Linda says,
Not sure about the rest of US, but in Florida, wearing a “gold tooth cap” and a lot of gold jewelry used to be a popular fashion statement back in 80’s and 90’s, but to me, it was typically worn by working class black kids (teenagers / minors) and “want to be cool too” middle-class kids.
For some reason, it got associated with “the ghetto” and gangs/criminals/ thugs, I guess because when the news showed black criminals, they would have a “gold tooth” and a jerri curl, (now they have dredlocks).
Rap /hip hop artists were wearing it also back then but almost nobody wears gold tooth caps anymore.
It’s not very fashionable anymore….I rarely see someone with a “gold tooth cap”…if Trayvon took a picture wearing one, he could have been doing so as a joke.
But of course, white America has no way of knowing that wearing a “gold tooth” is not considered fashionable in the US black communities anymore (because their local news media hasn’t updated them yet)…
tatooes used to label white people as “criminals”, now tatooes are a fashion statement that even has it’s own Cable TV show…and is considered “sexy” thanks to the white US media…
Don’t you just love the power media has to “make or break” the general publics perception of topics and issues they know nothing about!
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[…] you have those that are willing to believe “news” reports that question Martin’s background. Several websites have gone through great […]
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Yeah, when I think of you guys I definitely think of “forbearance”. rolleyes 🙄
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Enhanced police station video does show injury to back of Zs head.
We know there was a fight, we know Trayvon was on top, and we know Z was yelling for help. All that from an eye-witness.
The fact that Z got out of his car to follow T does not put T in a position of self-defense. Z must physically confront T for T to be in a position of defending himself.
The only question that remains is who became physical first.
It seems the disconnect I’m having with the African-Americans and white liberals here stems from the following query: why can’t a black teen walk down a street without being regarded as suspicious? That may be a fair topic for debate but it has little to do with this case. People here want to convict Z on racial profiling when it has nothing to do with Zs guilt or innocence.
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Distances from Disney World in Florida:
– Rosewood, 219km NW – black town burned to the ground by whites in 1923
– Gainesville, 196km N – where the video “Racist White Teen Girls Goes On A Rant About Blacks” was made
– Eatonville, 46km NE – the black town where Zora Neale Hurston grew up
– Sanford, 64km NE – where Trayvon Martin was shot dead
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You forgot one.
Distance from where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense
– Midway, 10km NE – A 50 year old white man is on life support after being beaten with a hammer by two black youths last week.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-two-arrested-seminole-beating-20120402_1_victim-arrest-affidavits-crimeline
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Also telling is that this racist troll is allowed to refer to other human beings as ‘things’, but calling a troll an ‘it’ is frowned upon. Perhaps someone can ask Abagond why this is? I would, but I’m guessing the question will be seen as rhetorical…
😎
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The only peice of atire that is relevant here is the gun that this factualy over zealous,unable to take good advice , unable to identify himself ,self appointed neighborhood watch person straped on
His behaviour deserves to be scrutinised in a court of law
Period
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Brahms – They can be suspicious, sure, just like everyone else. Doesn’t mean he or she should be shot out of hand.
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@ sepultura13
I deleted that comment. At first I let it stand because I felt no interest in making him sound better than he is.
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@abagond
I see that wasn’t the only comment you deleted either. You also deleted the disgusting comment that preceded and prompted it.
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@ destructure
Which comment would that be?
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The one where bulanik called Doug’s girlfriend a “sand niqqer”.
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I believe I deleted that one too.
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That’s what I said. You deleted both comments.
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@Bulanik
I only see a call for “disgust” now, in an effort to scratch together a little high moral ground – where there is absolutely none to be had.
Unfortunately I cant say that I was surprised when Doug was offered to provide financial aid for a young commenter on here. Much can be paid for it seems except for confidence, pride and self esteem though some think they find it in other guises…
This ‘feigned’ outrage is merely an example of their schizoid attempt at ‘balance.’ An apathetic consistentcy that posters like this lazily ‘aspire’ to when they are compelled to confront some of their OWN life, only to see that it has a semblance of discomfiting similarity to another thing that they have mocked in others.
In other words, they dish it out readily but they can’t take it…
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treyvon was a thug people need to stop lying about it and just accept it!!! if i was being jumped by some one and my head was being banged on the ground i would shoot them too!!! that could kill any one and just because he is black has nothing to do with it why else would they have taken down all his photos on facebook and everywhere else they are all all of him when he was 14 15 yrs old!! you people need to get over your selves seriously!
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@Peanut
People might really try to start a race war..but no one is dumb enough to take such lousy bait.
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http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=0
I can’t see a thug. Even in photo 2 of Martin in a gray hoodie. Maybe Zimmerman’s contacts weren’t in…
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For any of you that want to make comparisons about the Trayvon Martin case and Christopher Cervini case..you do not have the facts. Chris was shot in his back and was not robbing anyone. Chris, has never been in trouble with the law never kicked out of school, does not drive just turned 17. Scott left his residency and traveled with a loaded gun and killed chris and called it self defense. New York laws do not allow you to hunt pursue detain and use deadly force based on kids looking suspicious. Scott, put a bullet through the neighbors house that traveled into their living room where he could have killed other people. This bullet travels through chris body and into the neighbors house. Scott was never charged for this, nor did the jury know this.The DA reduced Scotts charges to manslaughter not the grand jury. Coroners report denied to the jury, 911 calls denied, cd of Scotts interview by lead investigators denied to the jury,lead investigators never brought into the case,pictures of chris that were to graphic denied,jacket chris wore with eight bullet holes concealed,cd of scotts phone calls made from jail unknown,no gun residue on chris clothing or jacket,scott does not retreat scott does not have any cuts or bruises,.conflicts of interest to case judge friends with defense attorney and made up over the weekend stated in trial, defense attorney representing both Chief of police Rahn for corruption the case was compromised. AND tjhere is much more! Kangaroo court.they let Scott go free.
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naw I actually I believe that if zimmerman saw a white boy acting black he would shoot him too..
I just think the guy is generally nuts..
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it is not white on black crime
it is self hating black on white crime
because zimmerman is 10 percent black if he has a black great grandfather..
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I mean self hating black on black crime..
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if whites wanted to make themselves feel better they can just say that and call zimmerman the n word..
and say we kill each other all the time..
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both trayvon and zimmerman can be n words.. they both have enough black in um..
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zimmerman is just doesn’t realize it yet because all his other cultures brainwashed him..
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no he probably WAS just defending himself.. or is self hating o well.. who cares just as long as I hope white people realize that zimmerman is black..
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the leader of the naacp is only 10 percent blacker than zimmerman and is 25 percent whiter than zimmerman..
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if zimmerman was president he would COUNT as a black president..
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Romttt,
What the hell are you talking about?
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“Two can play” at this game? What the hell is wrong with you bud? You don’t know TM. He has no arrest record. GZ does.
Beats Women
Molests little girls
Assaults Police officers
Bullies co workers
Racially bullies co workers
Pathological liar
Lies about everything.
Failed out of College
His friends threw him a grad party when he was really failling out of school.
Racial profiled in the past
Watches Gay Porn.
Described as Jeckle and Hyde
Co worker said he can be violent
Threw a women down and she hurt her ankle.
Wad fired for inability to control his anger.
Put that fat boy picture of, because that’s exactly how he looks today. Fat boy orange clothing that he has a history of wearing TM was never arrested…
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[…] […]
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[…] the most extreme cases, Aframs, such as Trayvon Martin, Renisha McBride and countless others pay for these negative images with their […]
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An op-ed in today’s LA Times:
“The human side of Charlie Manson”
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-ulin-manson-death-20171120-story.html
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Our black children are never seen as children Trayvon and young Tamir Rice are vilified as thugs while the media can create a narrative for a reprehensible beast like Charlie Manson as human. Something is really wrong with this picture.
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Not Charles Manson but CHARLIE!
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@Biff
You posted the following in another thread, but I felt it more appropriate to reply to you here… maybe take a minute to read the original post since I didn’t see your name upthread.
“At the time of the altercation with Zimmerman (the so called “white hispanic”, who obviously has some black ancestry himself, in addition to hispanic), Trayvon had been suspended from school — not the first time — for ten days after being caught in possession of burglary tools and jewelry stolen from a break-in near his school. THC — the active ingredient in marijuana — was in his bloodstream and shortly before meeting Zimmerman, he had purchased blunts, cheap cigars used in smoking pot. He often expressed a preference for them on social media. He was also carrying two of the three ingredients, one of them Skittles, for a dangerous drug concoction his social media messages reveal he favored. He was not carrying — as has been wrongly reported — iced tea. Zimmerman, the local neighborhood watch captain and well-respected in that role by the Sanford Police Department, began to watch Martin because he appeared to be casing homes by remaining outside while it was raining and walking on the grass, not the sidewalks, of homes that had been recently burglarized.
Trayvon was a violent, drug using criminal–a reprehensible individual, regardless of race. If most blacks choose to identify with him, despite that and just because of his skin color, I have no sympathy for them.”
Even if anything you stated were true, Zimmerman had not conducted a blood test, had not checked Martin’s Facebook, had not contacted Martin’s school, had not witnessed the purchases at the store and had never before attacked someone in possession of Skittles. In reality, Zimmerman saw a Black person in a hoodie walking through his neighborhood. He was suspicious and reported it. He ignored instructions from 911 operators and proceeded to pursue Martin which provoked a confrontation. Zimmerman was the pursuer and Martin was the one who originally stood his ground.
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