Ever since I wrote about Troy Davis, 10 of my last 13 posts have been about innocent people of colour dying at the hands of racist whites and how White America pretty much gives it a pass. Make that 11 if you count “R.E.M.: Shiny Happy People” as a bit of bitter sarcasm on it all. That comes to 85%. Meanwhile, above in the masthead was a picture of Troy Davis presiding.
- Troy Davis
- Johannes Mehserle
- John Trudell: When Columbus got off the boat
- Guidelines for guest posts
- A man was lynched yesterday
- C.J. Miller
- James Craig Anderson
- R.E.M.: Shiny Happy People
- The lies you were taught about Native Americans
- The hearts of white people, part II
- Gene Yang: American Born Chinese
- Vincent Chin
- “White is right”
For the past three days, I have written no posts at all : I got drawn into the 400-comment saga of “The hearts of white people, part II”, wherein I lost my cool.
So:
For the rest of October 2011 I promise that no person of colour will be physically harmed or killed at the hands of white people in any of my posts – unless something blows up big in the news and the New York Times sees fit to report it. I was in the process of writing a post on the Tulsa Riot and several on the Iroquois, but they will have to wait till November. The week before American Thanksgiving (November 24th) would be a better time for the Iroquois posts in any case.
Also, I am going to comment as little as possible for the next week or so.
Sounds like Zek, especially, really did a number on you.
I hope you don’t let a remarkably selfish and heartless concern troll get you down too much. I can certainly see the value of a break of sorts.
You do fantastic work on white supremacy here, and it helps A LOT of people deal with it better. I appreciate how concisely and sharply you bring issues and topics into focus. I can walk away with a better ability to articulate my own feelings and opinions about them. The volunteer work you do here definitely does not go unappreciated.
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Abagond, I definitely appreciate the work you do here.
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I was wondering how you were going to be able to write the 500 words on whatever you want in the midst of a 400+ comments, and I can see how you would need a break.
I love your blog, I love reading the comments, I can’t thank you enough….and I hope that you will continue, enjoy your break, you deserve it.
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Abagond-
Your choice of 500 words enriches my day. If you had a paypal link, I’d buy you a dinner or two.
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@ MinneB
I’m sure Abagond will not mind if you send the dinner’s directly to me in his stead, after all, it’s the thought that really counts! 🙂
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Abagond this is the point I think we all share, including the likes of Zek, which makes “demonising” people like him, who take the time to offer considerable and informed feedback, illogical, irrational and nonsensical. – In my view of course!.
There is no doubt that events of the last few months have had a significant impact on you particularly when most of them can be seen as a direct consequence of the unchallenged assumptions of white superiority and Black inferiority.
Its important to realise though this impacts ALL of us – both Black and white – but it does this in different ways. And this is where I can offer my own point of view: to understand racism – white superiority and Black inferiority.- as I am defining it, you need to develop a non-polarised perspective
Black v white, good v bad, devil-like v god-like, Afro-centric v Euro-centric etc..etc..these are all what I mean by polarised perspectives. And its these perspectives which have characterised most of your posts. While, they may be entertaining and even illicit informative comments in the short term, they inevitably deteriorate into the “us v “them” circular entrenched positions. Which, incidentally happens to accurately reflect the nature of polarised American society. So its simply a perpetuation of the very same thing you are trying to speak out about.
Unless of course you believe that managed but controlled (so that any extremes can be checked) polarised societies are the ultimate manifestations of human diverse, cultural and social interactions. I personally don’t…
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*sigh*
I wish you would’ve just kept them coming.
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Abagond, I have come to be an avid readers of your blog. Please, DO NOT LET individuals, i.e. Zek and Jason, try to bully you into dictating what topics and comments YOU should be making on your own BLOG. If they are easily offended or don’t like what you have to say, they can withdrawn themselves from your viewership, and turn on the T.V., read the newspaper, radio, etc. and they will be reminded that they and their ilk are “great people” who have done nothing wrong to anyone. Again, I implore you to continue with your trend in topics and comments. As many other readers have commented, almost all of whom are POC, you insights have helped us understand and navigate a society that is OPENLY hostile to our existence and interests.
p.s. Kwamla, you really need to save that “you need to develop a non-polarized perspective” talk for someone else. A person’s prospective is developed from their experiences as an individual and their environment. Polarization in its truest form is really differential in power dynamics: one group (the majority), represent by individuals such as Zek and Jason have the POWER to continually discount the perspectives and REALITIES of Abagond, et. al (the minority aka POC).
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@MK82
Your comments reflect you falling into the exact trap about polarised perspectives I was speaking to. Lets not forget we all have the POWER unless of course we choose to give this away. Just a suggestion..but I would recommend you hold on to yours…
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The power to what exactly? Live as second class citizens? The power to let others determine your worth?
What you say maybe true in the imaginary world you live in, but last time I checked (historical) you get power, political, economically, socially, by fighting for it!
If we, i.e. Black people in the USA, followed the crap you are talking, I would be picking cotton like my ancestors did….
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Kwamla,
In a capitalist white supremacist system, the empowered people are by and large wealthy, and white. They’ll let some tokens and such into the realms of privilege if they’ll play by The Game’s rules and stay quiet about the abuses other people like themselves, but that won’t shift the yes, polarized dynamics, which suits them well, between white/non-white and rich/poor.
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LARGELY wealthy and white
They’re by and large not all that large, thanks to healthy food and personal trainers.
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I forgot to say MK82. Polarisation or maintaining a duality of perspectives in its most truest sense is illusionary. We create such apparent realities by giving our power over to them. Hence my suggestion to you.
We overcame slavery by reclaiming our own personal sense of power. That is by not accepting own designated status. Contrary to what you state you don’t get power by fighting for it. This already suggests you don’t have it. No…You get power by realising you already have it and start utilising it to get what you want. This is why when you are caught up in the duality of perspective – I am weak; you are powerful – you are dependant on those with the power to give you this. And when they decline to do this you remain weak. – powerless!
The racism (– white superiority and Black inferiority) we encounter in society is set up precisely in this way. And we all know that we can never be truly successful as a person of colour if we allow ourselves to play by these rules. Though it has never stopped some of us trying!!!
We give away our own personal power when we buy into this duality and we reclaim it back when we see and act beyond it.
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“We overcame slavery by reclaiming our own personal sense of power.”
You don’t study history much do you? Slavery was overcome through a clash of arms: and for the North, a good portion of those bearing arms were BLACK MEN fighting for the freedom of their families……
“Contrary to what you state you don’t get power by fighting for it.”
Name ONE stituation in history where one group, whether it be by race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, etc. etc. etc. has VOLUNTARILY given up total domination (economic, social, or political) over another group???
“This is why when you are caught up in the duality of perspective – I am weak; you are powerful – you are dependant on those with the power to give you this. And when they decline to do this you remain weak. – powerless!”
Utter non-sense, disproved by what I just wrote, and by anyone that CHOOSES to open their eyes to the world around them i.e. the disparities we see in the economic and political power of Whites vs. people of color….
I am not arguing for violence, but even MLK and his followers had to FIGHT for things to change, they just chose the non-voilent path…..
“And we all know that we can never be truly successful as a person of colour if we allow ourselves to play by these rules. Though it has never stopped some of us trying!!!”
And yet again you are making suspect comments that justify the status-quo…
“We give away our own personal power when we buy into this duality and we reclaim it back when we see and act beyond it.”
HUH? I read your comment again, HUH????
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I can definitely see how that thread took it’s toll and now you have people telling you how to think, you take your break and do you Abagond,
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“read the newspaper, radio, etc. and they will be reminded that they and their ilk are “great people” who have done nothing wrong to anyone. ”
in other words….
“if you won’t admit to being pure evil, than you are basically saying that you are perfect”
is that what we’ve devolved into here? Why does it need to be so simplistic? someone get me a megaphone….
ahem*…
WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST, WHITE CULTURE IS RACIST, WHITE SOCIETY IS RACIST! THERE IS A TON OF STUFF WRONG WITH WHITE CULTURE AND WHITE PEOPLE, WE HAVE A BUNCH OF STUFF WE NEED TO FIX ABOUT OURSELVES. WE ARE NOT PERFECT.
If you ever want to talk about that stuff instead of trying to convince us that our culture is “the devil” or whatever, i’m all ears. 🙂 until then….
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““if you won’t admit to being pure evil, than you are basically saying that you are perfect”
is that what we’ve devolved into here? Why does it need to be so simplistic? someone get me a megaphone….”
When did I say this? Ohh I forgot, you have that “mindframe” that Abagond has done a ton of posts on. Instead of READING WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE, you CHOSE TO PUT TOGETHER YOUR OWN MEANING aka “in other words….”
If you are NOT interested in listening to what POC have to say on this blog then focus on the mainstream media, they will think, write, and present information that reinforces what YOU ALREADY BELIEVE! Is that clear enough for you Jason?????
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To an extent, I understand what you mean Abagond. Myself, I tend to comment, follow up a little then move on. Responding to every delusion would take too much out of me. As the site moderator, I suppose it is impossible to completely detach yourself from posts. Therefore at times, one has to take a break.
I just have to say that any focus away from the polarising nature of white supremacy racism is to incarcerate oneself in a mental prison. How can one discuss a phenomenon that inferiorizes people relative to another while ignoring the main aspect of its very nature? Is ****IS***** an “us versus them” institution of their own creation! For PoC to be under such a system and yet speak about it using terminology that serves to camouflage its existence is a form delusion that empowers that very system. Recognizing it exists doesn’t perpetuate it, pretending it doesn’t does. Which is precisely why many white people prefer to do the latter. However, for PoC, it is self-defeating to fall into that trap.
White supremacy racism is not primarily about personal emotions.
To think so would be to confuse effect with cause.
Which would lead to the misuided notion that you make “progress” towards defeating racism by changing your personal feelings in the absence of any real circumstantial change.
No, white supremacy racism is a system in operation that guides action, emotional response and policy, among other things.
Any PoC who doesn’t see the “us vs them” therein needs to take a closer look.
The below is polarization. The below is reality. The below is racism.
http://www.doc.state.al.us/execution.asp
After having defeated the Nazis with conventional weapons, Japan’s expendable civilians were vaporized with nukes.
That is white supremacy racism.
On a more subtle level of operation, the “black leaders” that are legitimized within white society are those who do not demand CONCRETE reparatory actions but strive for abstract things like “dreams” and “peace and reconcilliation”. But white supremacy is concrete, it’s effects are concrete. So who cares about “reconcilliation” when black people are still living in depressed townships born from years of apartheid? Who cares about “dreams” when police are still murdering and maiming people like Oscar Grant, Jordan Miles, and Sean Bell in the fine tradition of Fred Hampton’s murder.
It is time to end the naivety and speak about things honestly among ourselves without care for how it will sound to others.
That is the only way realities and goals will become clear rather than obscured behind all kinds of rhetorical gymnastics.
Needless to say, I am in extreme opposition to any dimunition of the force of this site.
Fortunately, I doubt that will be the case.
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jason,
If you ever want to talk about that stuff instead of trying to convince us that our culture is “the devil” or whatever, i’m all ears.
Who ever said this blog is written and directed toward white guys like you?
Who ever said that any POC here even want your white-guy attention, or care if you turn away?
What makes you think their reason for being here is to convince white guys (or women) like you of anything?
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“what YOU ALREADY BELIEVE!”
what I believe is written in all caps above your last post.
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“what I believe is written in all caps above your last post.”
So why are you here?!? It is obivously to every POC on this blog that YOU DO NOT READ WHAT WE WRITE, but instead, interpret everything we say to mean hate through your prefiltered “mindframe”, then I must as AGAIN why are you here??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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MK82
I not about to fight you for your choice to maintain your illusory duality perspective! I am simply offering an alternative view point. One which from years of getting caught up myself in this game of seeing things in only Black and white I grew wary and tired of.
Much of what I saying or attempting to convey to you of course you don’t see and obviously don’t wish to understand. But consider this scenario for a moment….
How would you do if you suddenly woke up and realised you were just an actor in play or a movie that someone else had written the script for?
Your choices:
1. Fight and resist and refuse to continue acting
2. Carry on as if you knew nothing because you liked acting the part anyway
3. Carry on acting but subversively change your role just for the hell of it
4. Demand to see the script writer and ask why he/she gave you this role
5. Carry on acting but overtly act out the way you would prefer in the script
6. Some other choice – state?
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“I not about to fight you for your choice to maintain your illusory duality perspective!”
LMAO!!! Yea, you defined the status quo, and I am the one with the illusory duality perspective?!?!? Whatever that crap is….
PLEASE REREAD Origin’s post, with particular focus on this quote ” how can one discuss a phenomenon that inferiorizes people relative to another while ignoring the main aspect of its very nature? Is ****IS***** an “us versus them” institution of their own creation!”
“How would you do if you suddenly woke up and realised you were just an actor in play or a movie that someone else had written the script for?”
Have you woken up, or you still stuck in the second option?
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I wanted to say “you defend the status quo”
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“So why are you here?!? ”
like I said “WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST, WHITE CULTURE IS RACIST, WHITE SOCIETY IS RACIST! THERE IS A TON OF STUFF WRONG WITH WHITE CULTURE AND WHITE PEOPLE, WE HAVE A BUNCH OF STUFF WE NEED TO FIX ABOUT OURSELVES. WE ARE NOT PERFECT.”
maybe I need a bigger megaphone.
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“maybe I need a bigger megaphone.”
No, maybe your thoughts and actions should match your words: your posts on the last number of threads DO NOT reflect what you just posted…..
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“Is ****IS***** an “us versus them” institution of their own creation!”
“interpret everything we say to mean hate through your prefiltered “mindframe”,”
so, it is “us vs them”, but not in a hateful way? how does that work?
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MK82
So it appears for you the status quo – duality of perspectives – is fixed or the reality which can’t be changed Yes?
Then I suppose your choice would be:
1. Fight and resist and refuse to continue acting
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“Is ****IS***** an “us versus them” institution of their own creation!”
“interpret everything we say to mean hate through your prefiltered “mindframe”,”
so, it is “us vs them”, but not in a hateful way? how does that work?
You tell me Jason, didn’t YOU SAY:
like I said “WHITE PEOPLE ARE RACIST, WHITE CULTURE IS RACIST, WHITE SOCIETY IS RACIST! THERE IS A TON OF STUFF WRONG WITH WHITE CULTURE AND WHITE PEOPLE, WE HAVE A BUNCH OF STUFF WE NEED TO FIX ABOUT OURSELVES. WE ARE NOT PERFECT.”
As you have agreed to, people LIKE YOU created this institution: so please, all seeing, all knowing master, tell US how to change it………….
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“Then I suppose your choice would be:
1. Fight and resist and refuse to continue acting”
Yes, that is the only way real change has come about: open up a history book if you dont agree, then get back to me……
p.s. I qualify my answer with the fact that I didn’t understand your first statement…
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“people LIKE YOU created this institution……”
like me personally?
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I am done with you Jason. You refuse to address or REFUTE with FACTS the larger points that I am making, principally that YOUR thoughts and actions do not match your words. Now you are moving on to the classic derailing tactic, trying to turn my valid points into personal attacks.
And people wonder why I generally refuse to engage in this discussions……
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Ok..My initial statement should have read: WHAT would you do if you suddenly woke up and realised you were just an actor in a play or a movie that someone else had written the script for?
Fine and your answer is: “1. Fight and resist and refuse to continue acting”
But lets look at those choices again:
Are you real saying from al those choices that (1) is the only way real change historically has come about?
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@Jason
I am curious. What would your choice be?
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“tell US how to change it……”
I wish I knew, that’s another reason why I’m here.
If you don’t mind my asking, (and I don’t feel you’re obligated to share btw), what would you advocate?
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Thx for asking Kwamla
#5. for sure!
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“Are you real saying from al those choices that (1) is the only way real change historically has come about?”
Yes, Kwamla. And your circular arguments are beginnning to wear thin.
How was the USA created?
How was Hilter overthrown?
How were unions estiblished in this country? In England? In France? Etc. Etc.
How was the Holocust ended?
And yes, I will go back to previous threads to provide my point further:
YOU SAID: “We overcame slavery by reclaiming our own personal sense of power.”
MY REPLY: You don’t study history much do you? Slavery was overcome through a clash of arms: and for the North, a good portion of those bearing arms were BLACK MEN fighting for the freedom of their families……
YOU SAID: “Contrary to what you state you don’t get power by fighting for it.”
MY REPLY: Name ONE stituation in history where one group, whether it be by race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, etc. etc. etc. has VOLUNTARILY given up total domination (economic, social, or political) over another group???
I am not arguing for violence, but even MLK and his followers had to FIGHT for things to change, they just chose the non-voilent path…..
As I remember Kwamla, you never addressed the valid points that I had previously made. YOU replied with “I not about to fight you for your choice to maintain your illusory duality perspective!”
So unless YOU can provide evidence to contrary, this is an opinion that I stand by…….
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#5 = “some other” (vague and undefined) action = wait and see = do nothing = retain the status quo.
That would be an appealing option from some perspectives.
BTW, “fighting and resisting” should not imply violence only.
African Americans employed various forms of resistance including economic (bus boycott).
Though even non-violent resistance was often met with violent reprisals (freedom riders were severely beaten and nearly lynched with cooperation from police).
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Origin
5 was ” Carry on acting but overtly act out the way you would prefer in the script.”
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Yes correction. I was referring to #6 not #5.
I see #1 as the only option if we remember that the analogy is a trivialization of something far more serious.
If the movie’s script says someone kills you, you’re not REALY dead.
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@abagond: Well earned rest, maintaining blog like this and doing all you do is a lot of work. I enjoy this a lot, makes me think a lot. Wait for your posts on the iroquois. That’ll be interesting indeed. All the best and feel better.
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Take it easy, abagond – rest your head, heart and soul for as long as you need. I look forward to your posts on the Iroquois as well…should be great reading. 😎
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I always wonder how bloggers maintain these blogs, deal with trolls and manage to live a life lol. Take a break, you deserve it.
For some reason I didn’t even notice that the last several articles where on violent white racism against POC. A year ago I would’ve been incensed and noticed immediately, now I don’t even get worked up. No anger, nothing. A shame.
Can I recommend a post on Mary Turner? The black woman who got strung up to a tree upside down, burned alive, disemboweled and riddled with bullets by a white mob? For when you get back to posting about this type of thing since violent posts are on hold for right now.
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@Jas0n,MK82 and Origin.
Thank you for your responses to this scenario: “…WHAT would you do if you suddenly woke up and realised you were just an actor in a play or a movie that someone else had written the script for?…”
By the way Origin this is not an attempt to trivialize real life as we experience it. Its an exercise in trying to understand “exactly” how we do experience real life as we know it. Because sometimes in order to see and examine objectively what is in front of us (life) its helpful to look at this from a less personalized perspective. Or less subjectively. Something abagond is clearly doing now.
Back to the script….and lets look at your individual responses.
Jas0n: 5. Carry on acting but overtly act out the way you would prefer in the script
Your sounding like a real rebel! And if you analyze your multiple comments in abagond’s posts this trend clearly demonstrates itself. My question to you though would be are you a true rebel fighting overtly against the system? Or a rebel without a cause? What would you prefer to change the script to?
MK82: 1. Fight and resist and refuse to continue acting
You sound like you basically want to “keep things real” The true rebel or warrior or fighter. Again, from reading your comments in this thread this is exactly what you’ve tried to engage in with me.. And you’re still continuing to do this even though you’re clearly having difficulty in understanding some of the ideas and concepts I’ve been attempting to communicate to you. So my question to you is what do you do when you’re fighting and resistance is met with equal determination to fight and resist you. For example: the director tells you to comply or you will be locked up and out of the movie?
Origin:6. Some other choice – state? “some other” (vague and undefined) action = wait and see = do nothing = retain the status quo.
1. Fight and resist and refuse to continue acting
This is not really you’re preferred position and it shows through your responses. You acknowledge that #1 is not really the only choice and that other types of action have helped in struggles in the past before. Perhaps maybe a combination would better suit your preferred choice. So my question for you is:
…If the movie’s script says someone kills you, you’re not REALY dead.
Why are you not really dead? This is a real movie and you are the actor in it!!!
.
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“And you’re still continuing to do this even though you’re clearly having difficulty in understanding some of the ideas and concepts I’ve been attempting to communicate to you.”
This is coming from a person that has REFUSED to provide any evidence to refute my points…..and on top of all that using a movie script as the example and options that Black people have to resist White supremacy.
circular argument yet again….
“So my question to you is what do you do when you’re fighting and resistance is met with equal determination to fight and resist you.”
Ask the Afghans that question, better yet ask the people who took part in the civil rights movement that question……just because you enemy is fighting you with equal determination (1) doesn’t mean that your cause isn’t just (2) doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fight on……YOU HAVE TO FORCE THEM TO CHANGE!!
“This is not really you’re preferred position and it shows through your responses. You acknowledge that #1 is not really the only choice and that other types of action have helped in struggles in the past before.”
This further clarifies that you never bothered to read what either Origin or have I written in regards to what “fight” means. Origin and I on multiple posts have stated that Black resistance to White Supremacy, i.e option #1, has taken many forms: (1) armed resistance , i.e. Black men fighting in the Union Army (2) Economic boycott of White business (3) non-violent resistance, i.e. civil rights movement.
All of those actions collectively have brought Black people to where we are now, and ALL of those actions collectively, if we choose to engage in that “fight”, will push us forward to end White Supremacy…..
NO YOU PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT THE OTHER OPTIONS YOU BELIEVE IN HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE ADVANCEMENT OF OUR PEOPLE, and if you can’t not do that I am done with this conversation.
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I meant to say “NOW” instead of “NO”
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Some time some comments just require a retort, because the lie cannot be left unchallenged. There are those who always seek out the lie to get noticed. It is quite a decision to ignore these, but at times they need to be, in order to stop the narcissism. This blog in not a revival meeting with Abagond trying to save white souls.
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@MK82
And now this..
Those two quotes MK82 highlight our apparent difficult in communicating. You see all I am attempting to do is provide a much needed alternative way of looking at how we view tackling racism: white superiority and Black inferiority. Which I know I’ve already stated before hence the analogy of the movie script. If it appears circular its because you not quite getting it yet.
You set yourself up as arguing from an entrenched position where you assume you know all the facts. But you don’t!!! I am simply questioning those assumptions. Further, its because you are not used to questioning your own assumptions about what you think you know your automatic response is to dismiss my attempts by trivialising or ridiculing them.
The communication problem we are having is you do not seem prepared, at this time,to suspend your dualistic beliefs. (re-read my earlier comments if you’re not sure what this means). That is breaking things down into either “Back or white”. The complexities of racism easily transcends these two barriers which means if you really desire a deeper understanding you have got to be prepared to escape them too! Otherwise how am I supposed to address your questions? You need to provide me with some more room so that the evidence you ask for can be displayed!!!
If fighting and resistance is all it takes to overcome racism and its effects why has it not gone away already? Are not enough people fighting and resisting it? Or is the white supremacist power structure that maintains this system to powerful or to strong?
Lets just look at one of your own assumptions in your last comment:
You have to force them to change?
Ok if this is true then if we reverse things around: You are the enemy and someone else with a just cause is fighting you. COULD THEY SUCCEED IN FORCING YOU TO CHANGE?
Would you willingly give into them or succumb to their superior force? No you wouldn’t because you would be just as determined as they are to resist and force them to change instead. You wanted evidence? You’ve already provided it the war in Afghanistan which has been raging for centuries from the Turks, the Russians, the British and now the Americans.
Yet the unchecked assumption in your response is: YOU HAVE TO FORCE THEM TO CHANGE!
Do you see how this is a circular argument or strategy!
Lets have the discussion or debate but lets also be more open and willing to explore more than just simple perspectives otherwise we really will just be going round in circles. But I am more than prepared to pass if you not up to it.
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“Those two quotes MK82 highlight our apparent difficult in communicating. You see all I am attempting to do is provide a much needed alternative way of looking at how we view tackling racism: white superiority and Black inferiority. Which I know I’ve already stated before hence the analogy of the movie script. If it appears circular its because you not quite getting it yet.”
It is not an issue of a difficultly in communicating or me “not quite getting it yet” the REAL issue is that I don’t believe you have given any solid reasoning for this “non-polarized perspective theory” that you are pushing. Aspergum, Origin, and myself have already debunk your whole theory for what it really is: accommodationism. I do not BELIEVE that accomodationism is an effective strategy to defeat White Supremacy, and thus our constant disagreement. How can one not have a polarize perspective when the other side cheated and holds all of the good cards in the poker game?
“You set yourself up as arguing from an entrenched position where you assume you know all the facts. But you don’t!!! I am simply questioning those assumptions. Further, its because you are not used to questioning your own assumptions about what you think you know your automatic response is to dismiss my attempts by trivialising or ridiculing them.”
No I have NEVER assumed to know all the facts: I have effectively argued my opinion, with historical information, that you have yet to counter! How do you know that I have never questioned my own assumptions? Three different people (Aspergum, Origin, and myself) have pointed the BALTANT fallacies in your “non-polarize perspective theory” and yet you ignore them, and continue to push the issue. The real question is HAVE YOU QUESTIONED YOUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS?
“The complexities of racism easily transcends these two barriers which means if you really desire a deeper understanding you have got to be prepared to escape them too! Otherwise how am I supposed to address your questions? You need to provide me with some more room so that the evidence you ask for can be displayed!!! “
I as a young black collage educated male who operates in an all White environment should try to see things from more than a “Black or White” perspective, yet the society around constantly tries to pigeon hold me into some negative stereotype. How would you suggest that I should try to escape this perspective? Hmmm, I notice that you are not holding Jason or Zek, individuals who don’t mind pigeonholing all Black who oppose White Supremacy as racists, to these same standards…..
“Otherwise how am I supposed to address your questions? You need to provide me with some more room so that the evidence you ask for can be displayed!!!”
Why do I need to provide you with anything? Don’t YOU believe that people only have power over you when you surrender that power? If you believe your point is valid, argue it, and back it up with facts!
“If fighting and resistance is all it takes to overcome racism and its effects why has it not gone away already?”
Because racism is a power dynamic, and like I said previously NO one voluntary gives up power! White people have no interest in surrendering their monopoly over economic resources and what is socially acceptable….
“Would you willingly give into them or succumb to their superior force? No you wouldn’t because you would be just as determined as they are to resist and force them to change instead. You wanted evidence? You’ve already provided it the war in Afghanistan which has been raging for centuries from the Turks, the Russians, the British and now the Americans.”
Try again with your rewriting of history, war has been raging in Afghanistan because the Afghan people refuse to bow down to foreign invaders. Ohh, the part that you forgot to include is the FACT that the Turks were KICKED OUT, the British were KICKED OUT, the Russians were KICKED OUT, and guess what soon the USA will be KICKED OUT AS WELL! That is the end point for the Afghan people…
Furthermore, I noticed that you FAILED TO ADDRESS my other example of the civil rights movement. Weren’t the Southern and Northern Whites “just as determined as they are to resist change” , but guess what??? Black people pressed forward in spite of acts of violence and terrorism directed and FORCED THIS COUNTRY TO CHANGE!!!!!!
Honestly I don’t see any point in continuing further discussion, you are an accommodationist, I am not. That is crux of the issue….
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I mostly lurk here on your blog, but I just wanted to say that I enjoy reading it. I admire the fact that you defend your opinion and have the grace to admit when you’re wrong. I hope that you get some rest from your break.
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@MK82
Its obvious to me now from the way you read and then respond “paragraph by paragraph” quickly to my comments. You are not even attempting to assimilate them as a whole. This is why you read one paragraph of mine then quote it back and respond before you even give yourself the opportunity to take in the rest of my response!!!
And you say you are college educated?
This unwittingly shows your, apparent, inability or inadequacy for processing and digesting extended commentaries from me. I am afraid at this stage you have exhausted my own efforts to keep feeding you the whole when you obviously require short bursts of this at a time. So I will keep this last response succinct.
I’ll stop wasting my “detailed” replies to you now as you’ve clearly demonstrated a lack of comprehension brought on by a deficiency in reading skills. Which is far too sequential in scope to keep up with the rest of what I was attempting to convey to you..
I hope this is a sufficiently digestible chunk for you to follow…
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@ Kwamwala Hesse
I think you and MK82 are just arguing from different philosophical perspectives. It’s like pure mathematicians versus applied mathematicians. Both practice the same intellectual discipline but pure mathematicians focus on the abstract and applied mathematicians focus on the real world application of mathematics.
Implying that the person who disagrees with you lacks the capacity to understand you is a complete dick move and I thinks it’s better to just agree to disagree at this point. I like your comments but don’t spoil it by acting pretentious.
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Thanks for you hard work, Abagond! Take your break, refresh, and put back on your boxing gloves. Your mind is a threat to white supremacy that’s why there is so much opposition. Keep on keeping. Until the next post, take care.
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This is one of my favorite blogs I’ve ever visited, and though I do not comment often, I still value it’s many topics especially when it comes to race.
I think this blog is one of the most open blogs ever that explores topics that some people would rather avoid. This blog helped influenced me to start my own blog page and follow its lead and speak out from the perspective of a black man in America. It’s with the help of this blog and the blogs of Dirty Red, Ankhesen Me, Colorlines, Macon D, and Changeseeker (to name a few) that I’ve learned a hell of a lot as a rookie blogger.
The subject of race and racism is not an easy subject to dive into especially with those who benefit from it or those who are not as informed. The core of racism has never been based upon logic, but based on myths and emotions. As such any discussion on race especially with the privileged group may likely become emotional. Is it best to leave it alone? Of course not. However, is one is to tackle any problem, one must face the problem head on alone with risks of hurt feelings and even physical violence.
Whenever trolls visit any site that discusses racism honestly, they are not interested in learning what the issues are, how it effects others, or how to fight it. They could care less what anti-racists have to say. Their thinking matches their maturity level. All they want, for the most part, is attention. They know their ignorance can successfully interrupt the course a thread takes because they know we will call them out and present arguments they don’t care about. As such they will continue presenting their narrow-mindedness without evidence as counterarguments no matter how much evidence or proof you have to back up your statements. Why do they have that kind of thinking and maturity is up for speculation. I find them sadly entertaining for a short time. Others block them altogether as they know the usual “racist troll lingo”.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that don’t allow what happened in an old post to change your course Abagond. You have more supporters than you do that oppose you. I’m one of those supporters, and I will be disappointed if you ever give up. Take a break, rest, restore your energy, and come back. We’ll hope to see you soon.
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MK82 I can understand your frustration. Jeez Kwamla, I too would just like to know when any group has voluntarily given up the power and control they obtained through violence and oppression, WITHOUT fighting. Stop playing your little thought experiment games because it obfuscates your point. It’s really insulting to dismiss the ideas of others as “simple perspectives” that need to be done away with, like you’re so much better than the people who get angry at oppressors.
Why don’t YOU provide some examples of other ways to bring about change on the scale we’re talking about here, ways that have WORKED? Remember we’re talking about a situation in which a group has used genocide, invented a warped system of “justice”, and maintained a system of white supremacy that is instilled from birth in every child born in America, infecting every cultural artifact. And what happened on this blog wasn’t anyone advocating violence against all white people, no. Simply pointing out that this situation could only be maintained through mass delusion was enough to get certain people UP IN ARMS over the injustice of the “accusation”. That is all it took and here you are saying we need to get away from the “polarized” way of thinking, polarized I guess meaning pointing out the reality: White America is twisted and full of twisted ideas that it holds on to for dear life in order to maintain a position of power.
But that language was just too strong I guess, so rather than using “polarizing” language and alienating good white folk like Zeks (lowlife personal attacks notwithstanding, he’s white so he’s alright), if you can show some other way that works then get to it. MK82 keeps asking for examples but you want to play the learned philosopher better than the simple folk. Are real life examples too simple, not esoteric enough?
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War in Afganistan:
1) Bin Laden was the minister of Defense in the Taliban/Afganistan government and directed the 911 attacks as the minister of Defense ergo in fact Afganistan was the aggressor
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I’m seriously considering giving up on this blog because self proclaimed moral superiority of some people around here and then applying this to an entire race of people. It’s a tired old retread of the white’s man burden with a different name – take it far enough and we all know where it ends – gas chambers and ovens
Life is too short
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@Wong Chia Chi
“…I think you and MK82 are just arguing from different philosophical perspectives. It’s like pure mathematicians versus applied mathematicians….”
…Sorry…but this is not the same thing. What you point out is a dual -perspective. dual=2. I am arguing for a multi-perspective. Multi=more than just two. So it is not a simple case of MK82 arguing for one view and me for another comparable view as you describe. The two are not comparable in this way.
Heres a better analogy: Monotheism or Polytheism – The belief in one god or many gods.
A dual perspective would be: the god of Abraham v Allah or the Christian god.
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@ Danila
Part of the difficulty I am having in communicating here is trying to put forward a different way of viewing a subject (racism) we have already decided can only be viewed in one way.
Its a bit like trying to teach a dog to walk on two legs. Yes…some people might say this is crazy. Dogs can only walk on four legs. And if the dog could talk he would probably argue four legs are better than two!. But think about the perspective the dog would have if it was able to gracefully walk around like this!!! And then think how we as humans would then engage with those dogs who could walk like this!!!
We would be forced to see all dogs who could walk on two legs in a different light or new perspective. (and even those who couldn’t) But then of course there would always be some people who would refuse to see this as a new perspective even forcing those dogs to go back to walking on four legs – In other words “keeping it real!”
But this is the power of perspective when you can open yourself up to its transformative abilities.
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@ Kwamla
From what I gather, you are advocating an approach that is less adversarial? What is the end goal of your approach?
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@King
Not necessarily. I am simply offering a suggestion to adopt a more inclusive approach. A mult-optional one. Do you have a particular choice from the ones I’ve already given?
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” Simply pointing out that this situation could only be maintained through mass delusion was enough to get certain people UP IN ARMS over the injustice of the “accusation”.”
Could you address my point in the other thread about white skin = birth defect please? Because in my mind comments like that go beyond mass delusion, which in my mind is a perfectly accurate description of racism. Do you believe that white people should accept being labeled defective?
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“Could you address my point in the other thread about white skin = birth defect please?”
The palms of a black person’s hands and the bottoms of their feet are white. Birth defect? Mutation?
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Kwamla = Concern Troll
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aspergum
Thanks for being the white person who saunters in and tells the dumb ol’ POC that he’s got it wrong. That’s like, totally unexpected from white folks when they encounter POC trying to tell them about something complicated.
sound familiar? So or is it OK to do this when the POC in question doesn’t adhere to your specific anti-racism doctrine. who’s a concern troll? lol
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“1) Bin Laden was the minister of Defense in the Taliban/Afganistan government and directed the 911 attacks as the minister of Defense ergo in fact Afganistan was the aggressor”
Please don’t not cite US media propaganda as facts concerning Afghanistan:
1. There is NO evidence (even the Bush Administration acknowledges this) that the Taliban even knew Al-Qaeda was planning and carried out the 9/11 attacks.
2. The Taliban OFFERED to turn over Bin Laden and his top lieutenants if the Bush Administration could provide evidence that they did the attacks, the Bush Administration REFUSED.
3. Taliban = AFGHANS of Pashto ethnicity
4. Al-Qaeda = Arabs mostly from Saudi Arabia and Egypt (own two biggest allies in the middle east)
So please do not try to equal Bin Laden with the Taliban, they are two SEPARATE groups with TWO SEPARATE goals. And even if things were different, Bin Laden is dead so why are we still there?? Both the Bush and Obama Administration intelligence estimates have stated clearly that there are LESS than 100 foreign fighters in Afghanistan who are Al-Qaeda, which means there are more people who are affiliated with Al-Qaeda operating in the USA, than they are in Afghanistan. So again, why are we there?
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@Jas0n:
How do you know Aspergum is white?
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…If the movie’s script says someone kills you, you’re not REALLY dead.
Why are you not really dead? This is a real movie and you are the actor in it!!!
Isn’t the term “real movie” an oxymoron? I’m sorry but this is the sticking point for me as well. Something is either real or pretend and again I know this is polarized but it’s also logical.
In your scenario the stakes are not as important as they are in reality and I like the way your thinking about it, and I’m not ready to discount it yet, but that point still stands.
This is why I think you’re offering a different perspective, I think, rather than a different option because… in reality there are really….only so many.
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I guess what I’m wondering is: How are you supposed to take these choices #1-6 and apply them to real life without admitting that there are certain limitations to the idea? You “written” as dead but “act” alive in real life it just doesn’t work that way. So that would be a limitation to the idea.
Are they just abstract? Can you explain more? I’d welcome you messaging me on Facebook if you felt comfortable enough.
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@ Wong Chia Chi.
Glad to see you are at least making some effort to play with different perspectives. You make a good point about the term “real movie”. Lets explore this.
When you watch a soap drama or a life documentary on the TV which is real by this definition? The soap or the documentary? Both are representations on a TV. One you might say is real life based but which one?
Actually, you could argue both are “real life” based and both are just “approximations” you are still watching on your TV. This is where applying “logical” reasoning such as “real” or “pretend” breaks down. The decision which is which becomes an arbitrary choice.
Another example;…when you are caught up in the middle of a “life like dream” while you’re in the dream it appears “real” you might say it was only “pretend” when you “wake up” from the dream. But you could only know this once you’ve woken up. Pry to this – in the dream – you wouldn’t know and couldn’t say.
Back to the script…if you are acting this out and someone kills you. You will act dead – the same as you would do in a dream – its only when you become aware or wake up you can choose to act differently. Again…you have to be “awake” otherwise your only option would be to act out the script and be killed.
This is where those choices (1-6) come in but you can only get to experience them after you wake up or become aware – not before. And even then you can still choose to ignore them (#2)
This is also why in “real life” when you only allow yourself dual perspectives – real or pretend – you never wake up to experience those (1-6) choices.
(Wong: just message me on FB if you wish to be friends)
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Come on, they can’t write forever. 10 posting and they disappeared.
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