In part one I argued that white people are born with the same hearts as black people but, because power corrupts, power has turned their hearts to stone.
Among other things I said:
If history had turned out a little differently, if Africa had been the first to have guns and ocean-going ships, then it would be black men killing red men. And the slave forts would not be in Cabinda, Mina and Quiloa but in London, Lisbon and Antwerp.
This is roughly what Jared Diamond argues, that guns, germs and steel – and geography – are what account for the broad ups and downs of history, not race or even culture.
But this normalizes White American racism.
It sees it as natural, as an ordinary part of human nature. It takes for granted that everyone, deep down, is a violent racist and, if given the chance, will act accordingly, like by wiping out one race while making slaves of another, as in my example.
I was fooled not just by good old American white-is-right brainwashing and by how common racism is in America, but also by the genocides in the Bible, committed both by and against the Jews.
If most of what you know about history comes from the Bible and American history, then genocide seems to be pretty common. But I should have known better since I knew Greek history and enough Chinese and Roman history to know that genocides are rare.
Chinese history is more damning still: it is the Chinese who invented gunpowder and the compass. Some even say they got to North America before Columbus. Yet it was the Europeans, not the Chinese, who turned these things to such deadly effect – a huge weakness of Diamond’s argument.
There are plenty of other counter-examples: Egypt, India, Mexico, New Zealand and South Africa, for example, would all be far whiter than they are if genocides were common, if White American levels of racism were simply a matter of human nature and advanced weaponry, of tribalism and technology.
White American levels of racism cannot be accounted for by the us-and-them tribalism that seems to be a part of human nature. Their racism goes way beyond that. Like carrying out military style raids on black homes that have children’s toys out front. (RIP Aiyana.)
Nor can it even be accounted for by mere power since, like their cousins the Nazis, they exercise that power in sick and twisted ways not commonly seen in others.
There is something else at work. My best guess is that it is a psychological disorder caused by the way they bring up their children. What White Americans would quickly call a pathology if it were found in black people. Whatever it is, it makes them unaccepting of people who are different and gives them a need to look down on and dehumanize others in order to feel good about themselves.
(Cue white commenter giving an anecdote about Asian racism against blacks.)
See also:
- Am I / Are You / Are We Racist? – Zek J. Events post on this post and the comments that follow
- The hearts of white people
- black people as monkeys
- Aiyana Jones
- guns, germs and steel
- the eight stages of genocide
- John Trudell: When Columbus got off the boat
- How to become white
“American history, then genocide seems to be pretty common.”
How many American genocides have there been?
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The whole “genetic survival” theory comes to mind when reading stuff like this…:/
I’ve been browsing “Teaching What Really Happened” by James Loewen (reads like an add-on to “Lies…”).
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@jas0n
I think he meant “American history” as in the American version of history, not just the history of the nation…
Regardless, there are many examples of genocides in the Americas — particularly if we reject the totally racist homogenization of every indigenous civilization in North and Central America. There were — and still are — hundreds of separate villages, tribes and nations — almost all of which were subjected to mass murder, colonization, forced assimilation, etc. And all of these injustices continue today, let’s not forget!!! Poverty, food insecurity, nonexistent health care, inadequate housing, ongoing conflicts over land rights…
If you read Howard Zinn or James Loewen, as well, it is quite easy to understand a genocide of Western Africans during the beginning of the slave trade by white Europeans/Americans. Low end estimates are around 9 million, high end up to 30 million — Africans that died during conflict, capture, transport, efforts at resistance, or upon arrival, in the context of a slave trade. The immensity of this population wipe out is mysteriously forgotten. And of course, while many efforts have been made to revive African traditions among African Americans — slaves were thoroughly forced to lose their native religions, languages and cultures.
We could also look at the forced sterilizations on women of color — specifically black, Puerto Rican and Native American — as motions toward genocide. Or medical testing on blacks (Tuskegee), or the recently brought to light tests deliberate infection of Guatemalans.
If you read The New Jim Crow (which abagond, I highly recommend you review if you haven’t already) by Michele Alexander, you could be convinced that the United States today is carrying out what resembles a genocide of African Americans, specifically through mass incarceration, “the war on drugs,” inadequate housing and health care, harassment, brutality and MURDERS by the police or the courts (i.e. Troy Davis).
Anyway, I don’t think this is what abagond was even getting at. Just wanted to address your question. We like to think about genocide as an exceptional thing — which as abagond illustrates, it is — just not in/by America.
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Seconded on the rec of The New Jim Crow. Excellent book, if a little too focused on the new targeting of urban black men (from what I’ve since gathered, the fastest growing groups of prisoners are now black women and Latino men).
Good post, and it’s nice how responsive Abagond is to his readers’ conversations in the comments.
It kinda sucks, though, that this post leaves the door open to biological explanations of what makes white abuse of others different–Japanese abuse of others, such as the Chinese and Koreans, has been equally horrific. The scale differs, but so do a lot of other factors in the two cases.
As what has by now become an old saw goes, there’s more genetic difference within each racial group than there is between racial groups.
Yes, there is a white pathology, and it mutates into different symptoms in different times and places and social classes. It’s generally instilled in white people by a lot of external factors, not internal ones–ideology, greed, perceived opportunity, geographical location, and in America, especially, religion. After all, in the 1800s, the ones who declared themselves “real” white people actually declared themselves “white Anglo-Saxon Protestants,” in part to distinguish themselves from the “dirty” Irish, who (like the Italians and Greeks) weren’t accepted into whiteness yet.
None of which is to excuse the ongoing horrors of white supremacy, nor people classified as white. What I’m saying is that external, non-genetic factors propel those horrors, and that they aren’t all that difficult to delineate, and that they should be the target of this sort of analysis.
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“….and that they should be the target of this sort of analysis.”
that would be a refreshing change. Unfortunately I think that’s too hard. Easier just to say WP suck and leave it at that. 😉
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All snarkiness aside, the problem with actually analyzing the cultural factors that contributed to white supremacy racism are bound to be labeled as “making excuses for white people” or “normalizing racism’ because they would preclude the idea that whites were just normal people who’s culture became corrupted somewhere down the line. Any explanation that made that assumption wouldn’t be satisfying to people who are accustomed to thinking of whites as intrinsically bad.
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Thanks for dropping the knowledge, Abagond. It truly is a pyschological disorder -white racism, when it comes to marginalizing others.
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“and in America, especially, religion.”
As I said, Christianity, especially Christian monogamy.
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Interesting–what’s the connection you see between monogamy and white supremacy?
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I’d love to hear more thoughts on the origins/causes/characteristics that initiated the white American culture that Abagond describes.
I am more familiar with the mechanisms of it’s modern perpetuation, namely a ‘colorblind’ ideology that allows for active racism while still believing in one’s ‘basically good’ nature. This ideology is definitely passed on from parent to child in an inherited racism that is difficult to combat (http://tiny.cc/dkj56).
By the time most white children have their first conversation with a POC, the instincts and subconscious biases have been firmly embedded. When you live in isolation, there’s no reason to think your parents got it wrong (http://tiny.cc/pxqut).
It is the persistent, inherited qualities that make white American racism function pathologically and remain so difficult to combat. I think of the ‘pathology of racism’ in the same way I do other corporate/cultural sins: to some extent, it a symptom of a broken nature and will always be a part us. In other ways, it is redeemable through discipline and education. There are cures out there if folks would wake up and work for their own healing for the sake of all.
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@StrngeFruit:
By the time most white children have their first conversation with a POC, the instincts and subconscious biases have been firmly embedded.
And sadly, tragically, these biases against non-white people have been implanted in most non-white children as well. A particularly insidious effect of the ideology of white supremacy is that its lies seep into people of all so-called races.
I agree with “biases,” though–not with “instincts.” Far as I know, the latter are inherent, not socially implanted.
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@aspergum Right on!
Do you mean ‘latter’ in reference to the second word of your sentence or in mine?
Regardless I think I feel what you are saying. I am using ‘inherited’ a little loosely to mean both biological and social inheritance.
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Great post.
Two essential reads–and I agree with the weakness of Diamond’s theories (there are some other things amiss there, and if not written by a scholar w. his bonafides, the argument would be critiqued for being very close to those made by white nationalists) that were light bulb moments on the pathologies of whiteness.
1. Jordan’s White Over Black
2. Kovell’s White Racism a Psychohistory
The latter may be harder to find, but is well worth it.
BBC’s series Racism a History is also sharp. Of course, it did not get aired in this country to my knowledge, but is available online.
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By “latter” I mean “instincts,” which, far as I know, are a biological inheritance. It is simply not the case that each white person shares with other white people a sociologically significant biological inheritance of any kind that members of other races do not have.
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@aspergum
yeah, I get you. Not trying to say it’s genetic or something. If instincts are by definition biological, perhaps I am looking for a different word–maybe “gut reaction.” Something that is entrained socially, but is still subconsciousness (eg. inappropriately crossing the street, clutching a purse)–the ingrained thoughts and actions that are often inherited socially.
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@StrngeFruit,
Yup, there ya go.
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I think the following passage might serve as an example of the type of first contact scenarios that led to white supremacy. Except below from the book 1491 – Charles C. Mann
Click to access Introduction-to-1491.pdf
If your short on time start at page 8
“Just as Holmberg believed, the Sirionó were among the most culturally
impoverished people on earth. But this was not because they were
unchanged holdovers from humankind’s ancient past but because smallpox
and influenza laid waste to their villages in the 1920s. Before the epidemics at
least three thousand Sirionó, and probably many more, lived in eastern
Bolivia. By Holmberg’s time fewer than 150 remained—a loss of more than
95 percent in less than a generation. “…….
“…….but he never fully grasped that the
people he saw as remnants from the Paleolithic Age were actually the persecuted survivors of a recently shattered culture. It was as if he had come
across refugees from a Nazi concentration camp, and concluded that they
belonged to a culture that had always been barefoot and starving.”
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I don’t think Diamond’s theories are that close to white supremacist thinking. If they were he would have just posited as racists do that non-whites are naturally less intelligent and left it at that.
The questions which Diamond is trying to answer are along the lines of why is it that 19th century Zulus were attempting to defend their homeland with weaponry that was passe in Europe as early as the 13th century if not earlier. Why did Europe exceed China in applied technology even though China created several things first? Why hadn’t the Aztecs made use of wheels? To the white racist the answer to all these questions is simple. But Diamond doesn’t go down the path of “race” based biological essentialism. The answers are more complex than that.
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@jas0nburns,
I found Mann’s book convincing (and look forward very much to his next, which i think is entitled 1493), but I’m leery of the overall approach, because it’s all too adaptable to conservative conceptions of racial difference, i.e., “they were advanced, like us, and they often killed each other tribally, like us, so after all, they were just like us!” It does, though, help to dispel today’s common romanticization of “Indians” as being better to the land and more beneficially spiritual all that (even though some, clearly, were).
There’s a kind of overlooking of white supremacist ideology in his approach, revealing though it is. But yeah, it’s 1491, so mostly about pre-Columbian contact, so here’s hoping he’s more attuned in the next book to that which most white people have a really hard time seeing about their own group and the way it so often thinks and feels about its self-constructed Others, and thus so often acts.
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“Chinese history is more damning still: it is the Chinese who invented gunpowder and the compass. Some even say they got to North America before Columbus. Yet it was the Europeans, not the Chinese, who turned these things to such deadly effect – a huge weakness of Diamond’s argument.”
THIS was huge for me too. It was whites that thought to weaponize explosive powder (later gunpowder) as a tool for conquest. It would seem that the desire for supremacy emanates natively FROM the culture and drives everything else. Richard L. Rubinstein made a similar argument in “The Cunning of History”. He claimed that the ingredients that made the Holocaust possible were inherent in Western culture.
It also fascinates me that when Marco Polo got to China and saw the puzzling giraffe, he thought it was native to China. No, they got it from Africa! So there was interaction between the rest of the world’s people in the absence of Europeans. But it doesn’t seem that those interactions always unleashed inevitable winds of destruction. Could that be why many indigenous people weren’t overly wary of European arrivals, having traded peacefully with foreigners in the past? The authentic historical accounts of eliminated people are understandably scarce but it seems reasonable.
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I think Diamonds work focuses on how and why whites had the ability and the means to subjugate other people. He doesn’t really go into why whites decided to behave as they have. although dominance does seem to be the way that different cultures relate to one another when one has the upper hand. White racism is related to dominance but it’s also different.
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I’ve always believed that white racism (historically & currently) was/is generally worse than other groups or “races” on average.
I think it’s just the culture they grew up in.
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I took a closer look at the picture in the post. The large blood stain near the crotch of the man on the left strongly suggests castration. This was quite common. Accounts of the lynching of Claude Neal indicate that his penis and tesicles were removed; he was forced to eat them and say “he liked it” while being slashed, burned and having fingers and toes removed for souvenirs.
Lynchings could be extremely macabre spectacles especially when the victims were not white. The juxtaposition of that and the smiling white people is still beyond my ability to fully comprehend. They seldom seem angry or passionate, just … content. The fact that they document it in photographs and souvenirs reveal an interest in reliving it and the derivation of pleasure from it. One could console oneself with the idea that it’s all in the past. But then incidents like Abu Ghraib, which feature torture, degradation, and the same kind of photos, remind you that the past is prologue.
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Isn’t that particular photo of two italian men who were lynched?
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No:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cameron_%28civil-rights_activist%29
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@ Herneith
Thanks, it’s hard to tell
But you’re right.
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I believe that I was thinking about this photo
Which I’d seen before.
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Italians and Jews back then, not quite white yet, and thus lynchable by whites. . .
But they’re fully white now, and thus . . . just as evil as the rest of the white ones?
Hmmmm…
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@ aspergum
They didn’t think much of the Chinese either
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@ King,
True enough, and all too true.
Interesting how even they are, in some senses, “white” today.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Forever_foreigners_or_honorary_whites.html?id=MYUiN17lV28C
http://razetheladder.blogspot.com/2007/01/are-asian-americans-becoming-white.html
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@ proudchocolategirl:
I was going to post the very same song/video. It says it all.
Lynchings were treated like a country fair or community picnic – people getting dressed up in their Sunday, church-going best, all to see another human being tortured, mangled, and murdered, while taking pictures, grabbing bloody souvenirs, and sending postcards of the crime. I had a thought – isn’t that what psychotics and psychopaths do? Talk about pathology…same with the people who try to justify and explain away actions such as these.
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“My best guess is that it is a psychological disorder caused by the way they bring up their children. What White Americans would quickly call a pathology if it were found in black people. Whatever it is, it makes them unaccepting of people who are different and gives them a need to look down on and dehumanize others in order to feel good about themselves.”
That right there is what’s really vital to understand because it negates their sense of humanity when it comes to people outside their norms. When you look at it, it is nothing short of psychological. When they’ve conditioned POC to think and feel certain ways, they’ve also conditioned THEMSELVES to think and feel certain ways.
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So just who are these “white Americans,” anyway? So many of them today are all up in arms about Hispanics, and yet, many ARE Hispanics!
“Hispanics drive growth of U.S. white population”
Shit is complicated!
The growth in the United States’ white population last decade is due largely to a rise in the number of the country’s Hispanics, the U.S. Census Bureau says….
Because other races grew faster, whites’ percentage of the population – including multiracial whites – dropped from 77% to 74.8%. Nevertheless, the white population did grow by 14.1 million people, or 6.5% (to 231 million).
Whites who said they were Hispanic accounted for 74 percent of the growth in the U.S. white population from 2000 to 2010, according to the bureau. This includes people who said they were multiracial white, such as white and black, or white and Asian.
Wut?? Hispanic white? Asian white? Multiracial white?
So again, just who are these dastardly “white Americans” y’all keep talking about?
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Which brings us back to: Race is a social construct, based loosely on broad and imprecise phenotypical/cultural categorizations.
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Actually Abagond I agree with your earlier post rather than this one. It is merely historical accident that Europeans became the dominant power, and power is corrupting. The Turks, Mongols, Arabs and Japanese all had their own versions of destructive conquest and colonialism at different times through history.
Humans, of any race, have the capacity to do horrific things. Give them the opportunity and the context and they’ll do those horrific things. The strong dominate the weak, just like the Bantu subsumed and eradicated most of the hunter-gatherers of sub-Saharan Africa.
Yet it was the Europeans, not the Chinese, who turned these things to such deadly effect – a huge weakness of Diamond’s argument.
China had many periods in which it attacked and subsumed other peoples. Ask someone from Tibet, or Vietnam, for example. However, the rise of gunpowder and colonial expansion coincided with a time when China was losing interest in the outside world. China was already a powerful nation and had no need to expand any further, unlike many European nations.
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Not exactly being a history buff here but while China was definately willing to use might to conquer, wasn’t their favorite tactic usually mercantile IE the modern day version of sending commercials over seas and selling coka cola?
Conquer through shared economic interests if you will?
I have wondered over the years if possibly the reason christian nations might be so horrible was the “forgiveness” angle. The aspect of their philosphy that they could act as horrible as they like, go to church on sunday and be forgiven.
I can see how a belief system like that might destroy a sense of personal responsibility or long term guilt.
I’ve even seen that as a quote before on facebook; “Hello God, Goodbye Guilt”…..and the thing I can think of when I see that is—-The only people who don’t feel guilt are sociopaths.
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I think the key word here is Conditioning: a kid growing up in racist enviroment/culture will be one with all that includes. He/she “learns” racism on all levels, including the subliminal messages of the culture: images, pictures, practises, social behavior, speech, language, words etc. The kid grows into the system and becomes one. Even though as a grown up he/she might state that he/she is not a racist on conscious level, he/she has all the conditioning of that racist culture in him/her in sub conscious level. Pretty much like catholics and their guilt, sin etc. which they wrestle almost all their lives with. Just look at Madonna. Kabbalah and jadajadajada, inside she still is a little catholic girl who wrestles with those demons.
Christianity is one very very large force behind racism and the history of racism. It was The force for centuries which enforced the ideology of Us vs Them in western Europe, and since other cultures and religions were not Us, they could be wiped out in the name of our god.
The same goes with islam also. It also carries the same doctrine in its teatchings and thus made it possible for arab merchant run perhaps the biggest global slave business for centuries from the southern Spain to India, from Atlantic coast to Kaspian Sea.
In general, any one who wants to really understand the history and the development of racism needs to take long hard look at the history of the religions. Not that fairy tale “Jesus was a friend of the poor” version, but the version of emperor Constantinus, mass murders in Alexandria, destruction of the libraries of antique, inquistion etc. Ín there you will find the earliest teachings about how it is ok to wipe out the Others and their cultures because of “reason”. Of course, this came into christianity in a big way from the romans, who, once adopting christianity, made their old practises part of the new religion. And that was just fine with the church.
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^ @ Sam
People get the idea of racism in their head, and they use anything at hand to bolster it. If a society is predominantly Christian, they twist and distort that religion to justify their actions. If a society is predominantly Muslim, they do the same (Sudan). The Japanese Buddhists and Shintoists had no problem colonizing, raping, and slaughtering the Chinese, Koreans, and Filipinos in their own version of Japanese manifest destiny for the domination Asia.
But then, ask the religious Tibetans how liberating it was to have been persecuted by Chinese atheists. Or the religious Jews might tell you that the Atheist in Germany and Russia were not exactly the enlightened clear thinkers that one would have hope for. They only proved to be more efficient in the art of heartless slaughter and ruthless extermination.
In fact, the entire avalanche of HBD and “scientific racists” whom we had to deal with earlier this year, on this very site, premised their racist beliefs firmly on Darwinism. White people were more evolved than everyone else, Black people were closer to their primitive ape ancestors. Remember?
It not religion. Racism is just as bad, and can often be even worse, whether their is religion involved or not.
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^ It not religion. Racism is just as bad, and can often be even worse, whether their is religion involved or not.
That depends on the sociohistorical context. In the U.S., it is religion. And racism. And the greed of elite classes who use both as tools to inflame the general population below them into support and action for resource extraction.
Remember, “White Anglo-Saxon Protestants” were the self-declared real Americans as the country was expanding. And I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that because of an especially Christian-driven disdain for Islam, and a racist disdain for Arabs, that expansion, combined with the usual lust for resource extraction, that expansion continues today.
And so, like well-trained monkeys, most in the U.S. end up wondering, though not quite consciously, “How did our oil end up under their sand, anyway?”
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it doesn’t matter. Atheists are just as bad, that is my point.
Racists use whatever belief system is available in a society at the time. Sometimes it’s Christianity, sometimes it’s Islam, sometimes it’s Buddhism, and sometimes it’s Atheism.
It really doesn’t matter.
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I disagree.
Economic elitists use whatever belief system is available in a society at the time. Sometimes it’s Christianity, sometimes it’s Islam, sometimes it’s Buddhism, and sometimes it’s Atheism. And sometimes it’s racism.
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That doesn’t sound like you disagree.
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Nevertheless, there is a connection to the Old Testament, and the fact that the Puritans exterminated the Turtle Islanders, in contrast to the Spanish, who merely subjugated the Mexica etc.
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King, I disagree in that your formulation implies that the ultimate power lies in the hands of racists, who use religious belief for their own illicit gain. Mine shifts the emphasis to the men behind the curtain, economic elites, who use religious belief, racism, and other exclusionary belief systems for their own illicit gain. I think that your formulation leaves class-based interests–the fundamental driver of the whole shebang–out of the picture.
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@ Columnnist
I agree. But that connection is only a facade.
A group of puritan HBDers would have exterminated the Turtle Islanders because they were less evolved, and therefore, not truly “human” in the modern sense of the word.
Everyone thinks that things would have been better in their own belief system/philosophy/religion was in place instead of the predominant ideals at the time of any atrocity. It is attractive to think that one’s own beliefs would have made a great difference and that these human atrocities would never had happened, if only more people believed in X (as I do) instead of Y.
But the problem is usually not X or Y but human nature.
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Ask yourself which came first? Before there was a “financial system,” before husbandry, and agriculture, or anything but the crudest and most basic human possessions there was war, tribalism, and racism. Just ask the Neanderthal.
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I admit, Atheism can be just as bad. What have Christianity and Atheism in common?
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Racism!
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Actually, if people actually were able to actually live up to their many noble beliefs, the there wouldn’t be much problem. But most people, no matter what their religious code or philosophical bent, find it impossible to follow their own beliefs and standards. And when they fail to do so, they almost universally fall back into the same recognizable pattern.
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Wow. I just said “Actually” a lot. lol
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King,
Before the 1500s or so, there was no such thing as race, and thus no such thing as racism. Racism and tribalism are not the same phenomena, and to equate them is lazy thinking.
In the U.S., in the 1700s, well after many forms of “tribalism” had occurred all over the earth, the artificial concept of “race” suddenly became a big deal when it became a “divide and conquer” strategy of the elite, because the elite realized that their indentured servants, of all different sorts, could unite and rise up against them. And so, this became a major reason that the idea of enslaving only blacks arose. And so, the sudden perception of a commonality of interest across class lines, in terms of the suddenly important “white race,” became a strategy to get lower-class whites to despise “blacks,” as well help keep them under control. Most “whites” were tricked into working against their own self interest by a new form of “tribalism,” a false form–most whites had far less in common with elite whites than they thought they did, and more in common with the blacks and other “races” than they thought they did. The illusion of race obscured the realities of class. And sadly, that’s still often the case, even today.
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Hmm–correction. I wrote “in the U.S.,” but the period I’m talking about occurred in the “colonies,” before they became the U.S.
Which doesn’t otherwise change anything I just wrote.
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Actually there was no such thing as “apparent racism” which is the phenomenon we see today between members of the same human race (different ethno-cultural backgrounds).
But there was true racism, between Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal who were truly separate races.
If you like.I can point you to the academic papers on the subject, but this article covers the basics, I think.
http://www.channel4.com/news/how-a-human-invasion-wiped-out-neanderthal-man
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Okay King, but for rather obvious reasons, I find that point irrelevant to the much later elitist homo sapiens’ strategic deployment of the relatively new and artificial concept of significant racial differences among homo sapiens.
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That’s Okay, because truth be told, I don’t really believe that there is a huge difference between tribalist and racism. A race (in the modern sense of the word) is essentially a large ethnic tribe.
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A race (in the modern sense of the word) is essentially a large ethnic tribe.
That implies that they’re bound together, and sometimes fight together, in terms of explicit, perceived commonality.
However, as in the 1700s, today’s elite white Americans don’t give a shit about lower-class whites, just because they’re both “white.” They see no problem, for instance, with shipping lower/working-class jobs formerly held by whites overseas, eviscerating livelihoods in the process.
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There’s something about this post, which unlike others, makes me uncomfortable.
power has turned their hearts to stone…it is a psychological disorder
The frame for this post seems to be less about the context that created White racism, or viable solutions to White Racism, or even a call to action. It just seems like a reversal of the essentialist argument (something we should all know well — White people use it all the time) that makes White’s racism a product of their being White, AS OPPOSED TO a product of general human nature, and the context of history.
And I guess that’s what makes me uncomfortable. Because racism is TAUGHT; hatred is LEARNED. And as for me, as a White person (and also a Jewish one) whatever racism I posses, or hatred I’ve had, is not because of my being White, but because of the world I was born into.
And that is not to suddenly absolve myself of culpability or responsibility for racism in America. We’re all responsible — to greater and lesser degrees — for that. ESPECIALLY White people. But it is important that as we struggle against bigotry we don’t let it affect us to the point that we start using their arguments as our own.
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@ Zek & Jason:
Mainstream American culture is constantly normalizing white people, making everything about them seem “normal”. In fact, they are not just normalized but HYPERNORMALIZED: they are made to seem so normal that differences much beyond white norms is seen as a sign that someone is screwed up somehow, maybe not even fully human.
You need to fight the urge to normalize whites. It is, at best, ethnocentric. Instead you need to compare White Americans to the rest of mankind, to the rest of history. Sure, they might not be the worst, but they are still at an extreme end. For example, America makes up less than 5% of the world yet has 25% of its prisoners. Something is NOT right. This idea that whites are Basically Good is self-delusion. Their history hardly supports it.
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Athiesm can be pretty bad especially when combined with something that can
be close to any kind of pro-nationalism kind of mentality.
Nationalism and patriotism seem to have bad results that way.
But on a lower level athiests often aren’t as bad; going by prison population they are 1/20 as criminal as christians, less likely to be divorced (to be fair catholics are I believe is whats supposed to be skewing that in the athiests favor).
Even abroad, in general the less religious and more secular a nation is, the higher their standards of living and happiness seems to be, more likely to do programs that take care of the poor or ill, the nations in general are less criminal, higher rates of being able to read etc…..its ironic that the less religions a nation is, the closer to their more basic values they seem to be.
Take america, the ones in support of the conservatives/republicans/the religious right are often these pro-death, pro-war, oppose programs that help those who lack resources but support giving uncalcuable amounts of wealth to the rich.
Think about it most of the people who complain about the economy and obama’s health care but don’t say anything about the huge amounts of money he gave to wealthy.
And on an individual level; at least from my personal perspective, the ones who live closest to how they are supposed to live with open mindedness, tolerance, forgiveness, charity etc…..are the ones who don’t do a whole lot of church or bible reading.
I’m not saying all beliefs, philosphies etc…..don’t have their potential to be abused, I’m just saying end of the day its alot easier to do it when you have God on your side.
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Isn’t part of the reason america has more prisoners though do to the fact that we are far more likely to throw people in jail for one reason or another than most other nations?
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In America imprisoning people (mostly black and brown bodies) is a very profitable venture for the white elitists. Many white rural economies are sustained or bolstered by these prisons. And it’s also an efficient way to further dis-empower/disenfranchise/control communities/families of color. Jim Crow is still alive – in a refined form.
It’s okay for Big Pharma to push and sell all sorts of “legal” drugs, many of them extremely more dangerous than, for instance, the “weed” that people smoke or sell and do go to prison for – especially if you happen to be the wrong color.
By comparison, other nations can’t hold a candle to America’s insatiable corporate capitalistic greed. It’s just not in their political or cultural makeup.
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Every distinct culture has the concept of the “other”, that is, someone who doesn’t conform to the conventions of that culture. However, it is the consistently antagonistic stance towards the “other” is what I think distinguishes the culture under consideration here.
Consider for example, the Southern African idea of “Ubuntu”. This encapsulates concepts such as “Humanity towards others” and “I am, because we are”. They emphasize the idea of community, sharing, and relationship with “others”. This intracultural intercourse would organically extend to dealings with those outside your culture even with the recognition that they’re “different”.
Contrast that with the ideas that have driven Western Imperialism. Here, the “other” is always a threat. It is something to be eliminated or negated through the imposition of power or control over it. Cultural assimilation – often packaged in universal human terms – and genocide all serve the same aim. Genocides by European colonists are seldom passionate breakouts but are better described as systematic. Hitler’s holocaust is just the most thoroughly developed manifestation.
This mode of thought actually operates intraculturally as well. INDIVIDUALISM reigns. The American constitution with its “right to bear arms” (if you’re white) is a recognition of the need for each man to protect against the inevitable(?) depredations of “others”. Capitalism and Social Darwinism can also be seen as arising naturaly from that consistent conception of self VERSUS(against) the other.The difference is that completely unchecked and culturally sanctioned brutality can be unleashed against the CULTURAL other. That is, the non-whites.
However, a level of hypocrisy is useful to achieve domination. If you made it clear to people that you meant them no good you may be met with immediate hostility. Instead you are bringing them “the good news of the Lord Jesus” or even “Freedom” itself. For example, “Operation Iraqi Freedom” is a thoroughly hypocritical name. In the same breath that it was so named officials gleefully explained how the intense SHOCK and AWE bombing campaign would render all will to resist non-existent. Freedom indeed!
As the Iriquois reportedly said after the French slaughtered their representatives at an ostensible Peace Conference: “white man speaks with forked tongue”. That is, there is often a vast chasm between PROCLAIMED ideals and the actual ambition. This may cause some intended victims to welcome the instruments of their own annihilation. Many of today’s claims of “universal brotherhood” etc. really aim to collect all people together under white supremacy. It is NOT truly a vision of self-determining groups of people interacting on an equal basis. (The self-determination often advertised must occur within the limits of western governmental and economic forms.)
I often wondered what outlook fueled the drive to go all over the world and molest far flung peoples while continuing to present a narrative in which they are “basically good” or even “the best!”. As I struggled to comprehend it, I was lead to the writings of those who spent decades thinking about it. The combination of my inklings and their research brought me much closer to making sense of the world.
[Sorry for the wall of text…it’s my last one (lol)]
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@ Origin,
But, but, Colin Powell! Barack Obama!
Just kidding. Mostly. I like your comment, but I do think it focuses too much on race and not enough on social class. Those pulling the strings are very much mostly white folks, it’s true, but they’re quite happy to have Others join their ranks, if they’re willing to conduct Class Warfare in the “right” ways. Their abusive actions (and in some ways lack of action) are racist, but they’re more fundamentally classist.
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The reason I believe white racism is the way it is because of white supremacy not just power and human nature.
Perhaps the reason why the Chinese did not ‘conquer the world’ is because they did not think of the ‘other’ as being less human. They did not think ‘savages’, ‘animals’ etc. Just as the feuding tribes in the U.S. did not deny each others’ humanity. If they engaged in sacrificial ceremony they sacrificed the other as human.
Abagond I think you’ve answered this ‘white pathology’ yourself in your post about how Anglos view race as being more important than language. To them race means ‘different levels of human’ with them being on top and others being closer to ‘animal’.
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Actually Abagond, you’re right. It’s how they teach their children (cultural rather than power or human nature) under a system of white supremacy.
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Actually, that is debatable. The Chinese referred to non-Chinese as Yemanren, or Pinyin both of which mean “wild man” or “savage.” They also had other words for foreigners that translate as “slave” or “captive.” Both imply the idea of having less human dignity than the Chinese themselves.
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Abagond,
I don’t see myself as “normalizing”, or even “hypernormalizing” White people. And I don’t see White people as “basically good” — indeed I don’t see ANYONE as “basically good” anymore than I see them as “basically bad”. Such distinctions are simplistic and not at all my position.
However, I will contend (with my anthropologist’s cap on, no less!) that is NOT AT ALL ethnocentric to compare, and even contextualize White racism with the rest of the world. Indeed, it provides us with useful knowledge and a deeper understanding of how White people came to be in the uniquely hegemonic position they are today with regards to other racial groups.
Your comment does raise a question from me though… Do you believe White people are inherently racist or evil? Or do you believe these traits are learned and subsequently reinforced from being enculturated in a racist society?
Because from some of the comments in your post, I see that as a fairly valid interpretation of your position. And one which troubles me for all that it implies.
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“Because from some of the comments in your post, I see that as a fairly valid interpretation of your position. And one which troubles me for all that it implies.”
Indeed.
@ Abagond.
This has gone beyond talking about and criticizing the behavior of WP and into something kind of dark. I’m over it.
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@king: Around ten, fifteen years ago there was a big fire on chinese campus and the fire fighters were busy trying to put the flames out and save students, except on one building. When foreign journalists asked why they do not try to save the people in that building, the firemen looked puzzled and answered with an explanation: Why would we? That is the building that houses african students.
In China the status of ones humanity was directly connected to the color of your skin. The so-called white people are traditionally seen as the pink devils, but darker your skin gets, less human you are. That is the traditional concept of race in China. So you are absolutely right there, the chinese culture has been particulary in the past, very much racist.
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@ Sam, I’m afraid the malady is not rare, and it is not exclusively White—it’s human. But saying so does not make the current White Supremacist racism any less terrible than it is. It’s still wrong, and it’s still racist.
But it just so happens that the driving philosophy behind it isn’t all that original.
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@king: yep.
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King said:
Wiser words have never been spoken. The 20th century was the most secular century with pro ”enlightenment” ideals but also the bloodiest and most oppressive century of human history!
No matter what philosphy a human embraces it will never truly stop the evil in the human heart.
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Zek said:
I believe that “these traits are learned and subsequently reinforced from being enculturated in a racist society”.
Perhaps I was unclear, but that was the main point of the post: that White American levels of racism are NOT NATURAL. I gave three examples (Mexico, New Zealand and South Africa) which shows that it is not even natural to WHITE PEOPLE.
“Natural” means coming from nature, inborn, genetic, inherent. On this blog it is most often opposed to things that are cultural, things that come from rules of society, like the One Drop Rule. The same opposition you use in your question.
In the post I even TOLD you my best guess as to the cause, which yet again shows I do not think it is inborn, although I do suspect it is deeply rooted in the culture.
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I do find this site fascinating, if for no other reason than a Blog which purports to be against racism is actually one the most racist sites I have ever read, albeit it limits its racism to black on white racism.
The majority of contributors to this site seem to:
1) Bemoan the fact that white people were in the ascendant in the 15th-20th centuries and, ipso facto, blame white Europeans (chiefly the British) for their troubles today.
2) Appear to be chronically incapable of understanding that their racism is every bit as divisive as the white on black racism which they rail against.
3) As a follow-on from 2) above, feeds that very racism.
Black people really need to knock the many chips you carry off your shoulders and start getting on with life, instead of continually blaming whichever target of your choice you happen to be on at the time for all of your problems – white people in general, white Americans, the British (a favourite target), the law, government, whoever. I am astonished that none of you can see the irony here. Look back through your postings and see how many racists remarks YOU have made, and against whom. Does the fact that they are racist against people who are not dark skinned make that racism any less abhorrent to you? It would appear so.
Fascinating.
I wonder why?
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Diplomacy:
If we follow your line of argument then you are racist too: just like this blog, you are pointing out the racism of another race. I am astonished that you do not see the irony in that.
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^Diplomacy:
“Black people really need to knock the many chips you carry off your shoulders and start getting on with life, instead of continually blaming..”
Why won’t white people give back some of the trillions in accumulated wealth that was stolen from blacks and other PoC? While paying reparations, plus interest, stop all mistreatment and oppression of PoC! Then we might talk about the “reactions” PoC have to white supremacy/racism.
Here’s a teachable moment white people should embrace:
“Reactions” to Racism DOES NOT EQUAL Racism!
Fascinating indeed!
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The problem in America is the White identity. There shouldn’t be one. Woodrow Wilson created it during his presidency. Previously, people in the ex-Union North were quite unsympathetic to the racist ex-Confederate Anglo-Saxons of the South. Wilson, who did so much good for my Czech people and others in Eastern Europe by supporting our independence, conceived of the Southern Whites as a people, a newly disadvantaged people (!), and succeeded in creating solidarity with them among people of European descent in the North. You are like Black conservative LaShawn Barber in deprecating the expression “African-American” without a justification that sounds very convincing. I suggest that what’s wrong with it is that it’s unintentionally (for I think its intentions are good) hypocritical: the principle is that “African-American” should be an identity like “Italian-American”, “Polish-American”, etc, but the problem with this is that most of the others have come to be accepted as “White”. That’s what should not have happened. In Britain, where I live, back in the 1960s when I was a small boy, and outside the circles of university-educated upper-middle-class people, “Foreigners” of continental European descent (and this was an absolute, not relative, term – like Ancient Greek “bárbaros” or Japanese “gaijin”) were hated, much more than dark-skinned people who were merely condescended to as having inferior IQ and hygiene. I was beaten up 3 times a day, every day, by gangs of never less than 3 and sometimes as many as 11 – with teachers seemingly condoning this fully, and my hugely Anglophile parents never believing that the fault was other than mine, even when I needed a hospital visit. I have never assimilated to England – I don’t consider myself any kind of Englishman and never root for England or Britain in any international arena… In Britain, the fact that the word “Foreigner” could be stretched also to cover dark-skinned people meant that much of this anti-Continental-European (or anti-Latino) racism started to decline as a side-effect of opposition to anti-Black (and anti-South-Asian) racism – hating foreigners of any kind stopped being respectable. The result has been that a Czech, or Polish, or Jewish, or Italian Londoner never acquired privileges as “White” over “Black” before the reign of anti-foreigner prejudice of any kind ended among respectable people – too late to save my schooldays, I’m sorry to say. In America, there was time for the White identity to stick to recently immigrant European-Americans: in 1981, working 5 months in California for a computer firm, I was shocked how the head of documentation, a woman with a PhD, would socialize only with the receptionist, warehouseman and janitor, because she and they were Black – while the other MAs and PhDs would stick to their own because they were White (or Asian). As I’ve said, I have no love for Britain – but this wouldn’t have happened there.
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@Proudchocolategirl
That song brings tears to my eyes. I like Nina Simone’s version better:
@Abagond
Looking at this post again I realize just how horribly strange it is. This post is flirting with HDBism. However, I wouldn’t go as far as to say that it is “racist”. It’s just kinda weird seeing someone suggest that a large segment of a race suffers from a psychological disorder.
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This is one of the FEW negative stereotypes that stick to white people.
That they are crazy.
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I can’t even lie. The white people in that pic look effin demented as hell! I’ve seen this pic b4. I think it’s on the front page of google images when you type in either ‘racism’ or ‘lynching’
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A concise cartoon for Diplomacy and Matari,
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Abagond:
Oh but I do see the irony in it. Racism is endemic, it just amuses me that you freely abuse white people and Europeans (in particular) in your blog, yet you claim to be anti-racist. If nothing else, you and your followers are magnificent examples of hypocrisy.
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Diplomacy,
it just amuses me that you freely abuse white people and Europeans (in particular) in your blog, yet you claim to be anti-racist.
How is it abusive to point out the abuses that a lot of white people have committed, and continue committing, to others?
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“It’s just kinda weird seeing someone suggest that a large segment of a race suffers from a psychological disorder.”
“..they are crazy.”
“The white people in that pic look effin demented as hell!”
It is my contention that this “sickness” that “whiteness” is goes well beyond psycho-pathological. It’s also a spiritually DEMONIC issue. Yes, I’m stating that “whiteness” is demonic. It’s a spiritual malady that affects everything and everyone on this planet. God forbid that this “Borg” like assimilation/conquering/dominion/violence crazed presence should ever escape this planet and infect the universe with its madness.
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Sociological disorders ARE basically mass psychological disorders.
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Cynic said:
HBDers say that the races act differently due to genetic differences. ONCE AGAIN I am not saying that. I even pointed out white people who, as racist as they are, like in South Africa, do not take it to the level of genocide as White Americans have done.
I am saying it is so unnatural that, yes, maybe it is a psychological disorder or something close to it.
I do not think that is a stretch either. As Origin pointed out on another thread, here is what a psychopath is like:
According to one study, when white people watch a black person drink water they FEEL NOTHING, like they were watching static on television. Unlike when they watch a white person drink water.
Another study shows that they think of monkeys and apes when they see a black person.
They willingly sold their own children into slavery, etc.
THIS SHIT IS NOT NORMAL.
If they are not screwed up in the head, then what do you want to call it?
They control the mainstream culture in America so they can make it all seem nice and normal, but that does not mean it is.
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It is my contention that this “sickness” that “whiteness” is goes well beyond psycho-pathological. It’s also a spiritually DEMONIC issue. Yes, I’m stating that “whiteness” is demonic. It’s a spiritual malady that affects everything and everyone on this planet.
I think elitist greed is a bigger problem, a bigger psychosis, since globe-trotting wealthy elites are the ones who especially use white supremacy, along with other methods of misdirection, for their own murderously nefarious purposes.
Why is just about everyone here so exclusively focused on the corner of evil’s playpen that is white supremacy, instead of including the bigger picture of those who use white supremacy as just one of their tools? Especially now, with the Occupy Wall Street protests going on?!
The more you focus on just racism, the more the elite bastards smile and rub their hands together.
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@ Aspergum
You’ll get no disagreement from me regarding the folks in the shadows who’re pulling strings behind the scenes. But those insatiable elitist [ …s] wouldn’t be elites were it not for the millions of believers/followers who subscribe to the slick and ever refining religious doctrines of “whiteness” and white supremacy.
Nonetheless, the bigger problem, imo, are the empowering masses that follow the tenants and beliefs of those who manage and maintain this global religion/system. If the spell is broken, and people stop seeing themselves as “white,” those hidden in the shadows would cease to exist. Before white people can see the magicians (elites), they need to first see the magic that has bewitched (controlled) them.
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@Abagond
I said flirts with HDBism and who do you mean by “they”? Are you speaking of the majority of whites? A significant number/minority of white ppl? Whites from European countries with no history of colonization or African slavery?
Also, there have been studies where black people have shown less empathy towards ppl of other racial groups also (ill link the study 4rm Science Daily a lil l8r).
@King
Your making an assertion, not an argument. WHY should I believe sociological disorders are psychological?
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If the spell is broken, and people stop seeing themselves as “white,” those hidden in the shadows would cease to exist. Before white people can see the magicians (elites), they need to first see the magic that has bewitched (controlled) them.
I agree that seeing the magic for what it is would break the spell, that particular spell, but white supremacy is just one tool of the elite. They have plenty of others–sexism/misogyny, heterosexism, classist bigotry, etc.–and they’re all connected by the money-seeking missile that is elitist greed. Keep people focused on those divisive, diversionary problems, or as is the case here, on just one of those, and they won’t focus on the bigger, central problem.
I wonder, for instance, what percentage of the protesters currently addressing that central problem are black, or otherwise non-white? Anywhere near the proportions of the population they represent? I really doubt it, even though the financial crisis has hit black communities in the U.S. the worst, by far the worst. So why aren’t many of them protesting now? Because it’s not a race-based protest? If so, that’s sad; if so, they’ve been misled from seeing the fundamental, driving source of their problems.
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(oops, forgot to close my tag, sorry)
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Ugh… unfortunately I couldn’t find the exact neuroscience study that used the MRIs of Italian and African Italian immigrant subjects, but it came up with the same conclusion as the drinking water study you just cited. People of all groups exhibit in-group/out-group biases. That doesn’t necessarily translate into racism or a psychological disorder.
These studies will have to suffice…
“The researchers recruited 17 Chinese and 16 Caucasian college students to the study. They asked the students to view video clips of Chinese and Caucasian models being prodded with a non-painful cotton swab or pricked with a painful needle (pictured). The students then had to judge whether the model was feeling pain and to assess the intensity of the pain. Meanwhile, the researchers scanned the brains of the students for activity.
They found that their video clips induced strong neural responses in the students’ ACC and IC when the model was of the same race. However, the neural responses in the ACC were significantly lower when the model in pain was of another race.”
http://www.nature.com/nchina/2009/090722/full/nchina.2009.148.html
(same study, different article)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090630173815.htm
“Here we examined the neural basis of extraordinary empathy and altruistic motivation in African-American and Caucasian-American individuals using functional magnetic resonance imaging.”
“People showed greater response within anterior cingulate cortex and bilateral insula when observing the suffering of others, but African-American individuals additionally recruit medial prefrontal cortex when observing the suffering of members of their own social group. Moreover, neural activity within medial prefrontal cortex in response to pain expressed by ingroup relative to outgroup members predicted greater empathy and altruistic motivation for one’s ingroup”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910003125
(Same study, diff link)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100426182002.htm
*From the surnames, most of the researchers appear to be Asian, not white
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Sorry. Haven’t been posting here a lot lately. Forgot you couldn’t post more than two links w/o getting 404’d
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Abagond,
I believe that “these traits are learned and subsequently reinforced from being enculturated in a racist society”.
I am saying it is so unnatural that, yes, maybe it is a psychological disorder or something close to it.
I do not think that is a stretch either. As Origin pointed out on another thread, here is what a psychopath is like…
THIS SHIT IS NOT NORMAL.
If they are not screwed up in the head, then what do you want to call it?
See, there again, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you don’t believe White people are born racist or evil, but then you say we suffer from a psychological disorder, saying we’re like psychopaths! I mean, I know you don’t accept these arguments regarding Black people, so why would you start proposing them as reasons for White racism?
It seems you can’t have it both ways. Either White people are screwed-up as a race, or they are not. If the former, then I’d say you are a racist (like a lot of Americans) and if the latter, then maybe you need to reexamine the arguments you’re making.
Also, White South Africans certainly engaged in racism at equal levels to American racism, and certainly they attempted genocide on many of the indigenous African nations during the early Boer colonization period. I think your attempts to single out White American racism as genocide is disingenuous to the dialogue, to other examples of White racism, and even to the historical facts since White-Americans never attempted a strict definition of genocide on Black people in America. (Although you could make the argument that their actions resulted in de facto genocide, and I would agree, but nonetheless…)
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Perhaps it would be good for the conversation to cool down just a bit so we can get into the subject: what the hell it is in USA that up holds the racism? What it is in the thinking system, in the culture, in the education system, in arts, litterature, language etc.?
For me it has always been very strange how much people who live in USA emphasize their ethnicity and how “normal” it is for everyone to define their fellow country men by the ethnic and racial labels. The corner store guy is korean, not american, the lady in the hair saloon is black, not american, the baker is italian, not american, the deli owner jewish, dress store guys arabs etcetcetc. It just goes on and on and on and on and on. Constant repetition, constant emphasis on race and ethnicity, and everyone just thinks it is normal.
Why the hell the USA goverment wants to know my “race”??? Why they ask my color in official documents, in insurance papers etc.? How on earth the people find all this natural?
In my finnish passport there is my name, date of birth and sex. That is all. There is no “white”, “caucasian” etc. Nor in the passports of black finns (yes, there are black finns) there reads anywhere the word “black”. NO ethnic backround, color of skin etc. Why they are so important in USA?
Somehow I feel that this is one lead into the racism in the american thinking, in the way the americans learn and are teached to look at the world. Not by nationalities, as in Europe (Ruud Gullit, very famous dutch soccer star was black by american standards but not once I heard in any news or news paper stories any reference to his skin color, and the same goes with other black soccer players from France, England etc.), but by the color, “race”.
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“Perhaps it would be good for the conversation to cool down just a bit so we can get into the subject: what the hell it is in USA that up holds the racism?”
I wish you no offense Sam, but I think you’re the one who’s a bit off the subject; the topic of this thread is about “the hearts of white people.” It’s mystifying and intriguing, and, I imagine, a most uncomfortable issue for many white folks as they are under a looking glass that shows no signs of letting up. I say let’s all press forward until this monstrous thing (white supremacy) that’s literally threatening all life on the planet is eradicated. It’s not going be done away with by sweeping “the issue” under a rug by playing nice with polite and comfortable language. It has got to be seen and called out as the evil thing that it is, otherwise we will all remain captive to it. So let’s expose this evil by pouring copious amounts of LIGHT and TRUTH all over this “thing.” We can cool (the conversation) down after it no longer exists.
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Yeah Sam, can’t you see you’re just being over sensitive? (sarcasm)
Matari
If you feel that white supremacy is cultural than why tell Sam he’s off topic for suggesting we examine the cultue behind white supremacy?
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@Sam
Somehow I feel that this is one lead into the racism in the american thinking, in the way the americans learn and are teached to look at the world. Not by nationalities, as in Europe (Ruud Gullit, very famous dutch soccer star was black by american standards but not once I heard in any news or news paper stories any reference to his skin color, and the same goes with other black soccer players from France, England etc.), but by the color, “race”.
I must confess i’m not sure about footballers (the only team I really showed any interest in is the Gunners aka Arsenal and that was only when yummy Thierry played for them ;-O) but in other areas of sports Sam race, nationality has been the thing that is made an issue of – Linford Christie springs to mind as when he lost a race he was ‘Jamaican born Christie’ but when he won ‘Linford wins for the UK…etc’
From what I have read Sam, you seem to find it hard to come to terms with the fact that there is any racism or people being marginalised due to race in Europe but, and I dont know your experiences or who you mix with to know whether you have first hand experience via friends who are POC but, unfortunately, there is. The way it manifests itself may be different to what the guys in the US discuss but the roots are the same.
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Jason wrote:
“…why tell Sam he’s off topic for suggesting we examine the cultue behind white supremacy?”
Sam’s wording suggested that this topic was heating up, and needs cooling down. I think it needs to heat up – in a positive way, if that’s possible – so that white people might truly be motivated to deeply examine their attachment to whiteness and the harm this attachment is doing to their souls, as well as the souls of those deemed as “other.”
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Abagond: So white people have a psychological disorder, even as far as psycopathy? Meaning, one presumes all white people? And you don’t think that’s a racist remark? Once again I assert that your blog and remarks written by you are astonishingly hypocritical and fuel, rather than diminish racism.
I could say something like “some black people have a psychological disorder – the propensity to criminal activity, such as to steal and riot, as was witnessed in London, Birmingham and Bristol recently”. I am sure I would be roundly condemned as a racist for any kind of remark like that, not least by you. Please explain to me the essential difference between one who tars all (or even many or most) people with white skin with the same brush, and one who tars blacks with the same brush? Are you not as guilty of racism as the whites you accuse of racism? If not, why not?
Aspergum: I agee that abusive behaviour should be challenged. As it happens I don’t like seeing people rioting in my home. I am challenging their abusive behaviour by pointing it out. Am I therefore a racist by your definition (given that the clear majority of the rioters were black)? If not, why not? If yes, then you are hoist by your own petard, and I will freely call you a racist.
Matari, I think you have a tree rather an a chip on your shoulder. Even if we accept your assertion of (presumably historical) theft by whites from blacks (please quantify), why don’t you go ahead and explain how that affects you today? Had I been around at the time of the Inquisition, I might have harboured a dislike of Catholics for their behaviour, but I wasn’t, and so I don’t. History is history, why don’t you put it behind you and live your life, today, instead of living in the past and playing the victim?
By your definition my “reaction” to the (predominantly black) rioters is not racism, as it is a “reaction” to racism as, presumably you might argue, was theirs? Please! Racism is racism. Bymaking the kind of comments about whites that you do, then you are as foul a racist as any white person may be.
Let me just remind you of this little gem you posted above, and please defend it as not racist, I’d love to hear your argument:
It is my contention that this “sickness” that “whiteness” is goes well beyond psycho-pathological. It’s also a spiritually DEMONIC issue. Yes, I’m stating that “whiteness” is demonic. It’s a spiritual malady that affects everything and everyone on this planet.
I accuse you of being a very racist person, Matari.
As I said when I butted in a few hours ago, it seems to me that contributors to this blog loathe racism when it is white on black, but black on white racism is not only to be tolerated, but actively encouraged. Gentlemen, can you not see the wickedness in your own writings, and the inevitable result? – the fuelling of racism.
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Diplomacy?
Ponder this: If “whiteness” didn’t exist, racism – by it’s original definition wouldn’t exist.
You calling us “racists” is akin to a 45 yo child molester calling a 3 yo child a “seducer!”
There’s a never ending number of “white” folks like you that show up at regular intervals saying/asking pretty much the same thing. I don’t have the desire or the energy to continually write dissertations or give long winded replies, provide well documented data, research, studies, etc to every Tom, Dick or Harry that drops in to ask the same, less than original; questions. But I can point you to the names of some “white” people who have written and spoken extensively on the subject of whiteness. Tim Wise, Joe Feagin, Robert Jensen are three that come to mind. There are others. And you can visit this unique web site run by white folks for white people who need help seeing “things.” http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com.
If you don’t wish to read and consider their arguments and insights, then stick around here and read some of the hundreds of honest and “inspired” posts that Abagond has written on the subject – specifically for people such as yourself. As you probably know, the www is rife with information for any seeker of truth, if they’re willing to look.
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“I accuse you of being a very racist person, Matari”
Thank you, Diplomacy(?) I’ll take that with a grain of salt. : -)
I’ve been accused of that many times. Talking about whiteness upsets many whites. They usually don’t like looking too closely at what and how they are. That’s too bad, for if they could, we could all move forward – together.
In order for me to be a racist, I would have to be a “white” person, according to the original meaning of racist/racism. I am not “white.” I wish you well.
Note to PoC: It’s interesting how the meaning of “racist” has evolved over a relative short period of time by “whiteness” to include the most marginalized and mistreated people if they dare talk about or attempt to analyze – whiteness/white supremacy/white people. It’s a charge that meant to silence or derail.
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Diplomacy? wrote,
Aspergum: I agee that abusive behaviour should be challenged. As it happens I don’t like seeing people rioting in my home. I am challenging their abusive behaviour by pointing it out. Am I therefore a racist by your definition (given that the clear majority of the rioters were black)? If not, why not? If yes, then you are hoist by your own petard, and I will freely call you a racist.
Comparing that to what I wrote inspires me to ask, “What in the hell are you talking about?”
(But don’t answer–it’s a rhetorical question. I have no interest in whatever gobbedlygook you’d produced as an answer.)
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I have to admit some ignorance as to the objective of this type of discussion. Maybe there isn’t any expectation for white people to change their “hearts” or their actions and that’s fine. However, if there IS that expectation and desire, than I think it’s important to separate “whiteness” from “white people” and whites as individuals. I think that white people in order to identify and begin to work against whiteness, must first separate ourselves from whiteness. In so doing, not only can whites look at it objectively but non-whites can be free to criticize and discuss it without WP taking it personally.
That may seem like avoiding responsibility to some, but I think it’s necessary if any type of actual progression is the desire. Because you’re never going to have a situation where WP associate strongly with whiteness and at the same time work against it. To do so would basically amount to self-hatred. Expecting white people or any people to hate themselves is a foolish expectation no matter what they have done.
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@Matari:
Amen! Your comments to Diplomacy made me nod my head in agreement! Woot! Woot! 😀
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Come now Jason, most white people are older than five. That is, most are certainly capable of owning up to their whiteness–its history, its ongoing abuses, and what it encourages they themselves to do. Most are capable of doing that without hating themselves.
I think white people should own up to their whiteness. Take responsibility for it, as something bad that’s happened to themselves. That can be done without hating yourself.
Just because you happen to have been born into an empowered majority category doesn’t mean that you have to hate yourself for that. Unless you refuse to do anything about it, in which case some self-hatred is indeed appropriate.
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@ Leigh
Thank you Ma’am. 🙂
@Jason
Aspergum said it perfectly. I’ll add that there are many examples (though not enough) of so-called “white” people (anti-racists) who’ve had this epiphany – and are on the road to recovery (from whiteness) without any self-hatred. One doesn’t have to be or feel guilty, or hate SELF. All that’s required is looking at it for what it really is – and letting it go. Letting go of being “white.” When “white” goes, “other” goes too. Then perhaps we can all be just HEALING people, fully human and humane.
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@ Aspergum
Well, i’m not so sure it’s as easy as you think. I mean if you read some of Origin or Matari’s comments in this thread, as well as Abagonds comments in the OP. it’s pretty easy to see how WP could take it as hatred towards white people. The title is “the hearts of white people” and it goes on to say that white people have a psychological disorder. That’s not about “owning up to history” aspergum that is a very personal accusation. Saying someone was born into a powerful majority is one thing, saying they personally are mentally ill is another thing.
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@ Cynic:
My point was not that whites feel LESS empathy or blacks. I think everyone expects that, just as blacks can be expected to feel less empathy for whites. That is ordinary in-group/out-group stuff and is probably seen throughout the world. The thing was that whites feel close to ZERO EMPATHY for blacks. Almost like the black person was not even there. THAT is troubling. THAT is not normal. THAT is what I am saying.
Thanks for the links. I might make a post out of them.
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Jason,
Mental illness can be induced from environmental conditions. In that sense, white people are mentally ill, unless they work to counteract it, thanks to white supremacy. And so are POC, for the same reason (mostly in terms of “internalized racism”). All are rendered delusional by white supremacist ideology. And to be delusional, functionally and actively delusional, is a psychosis, right?
These are facts. And I don’t see why Abagond or Origin or Matari or anyone else here should shy away from stating them for the sake of white people’s fee-fees. POC have to tiptoe all day around white delusions that they’re perfectly normal, healthy, friendly, harmless people.
Why should they have to do that here too? Just because some white people also read this blog? Who’s to say it should be written and commented on for their sake? Screw that kind of white people, for once, if the bright light of truth is too harsh for them.
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@ Zek
This post, if you read it, is about WHITE AMERICANS. You seem to keep missing that. It is not about the white race. It is about WHITE AMERICANS.
They have never gone all the way with a genocide against blacks, but they have gone down that road and are still part of the way down it. And they have gone all the way with others.
Worse still, the mindset is still there. You see that on this blog where genocide is dismissed as “people being people”, as no worse than retail brutality, where people are EXCUSING and MITIGATING it. That is an extremely bad sign. It means that with the right circumstances there could be another genocide and next time, yes, it could well be blacks. Both they and Mexicans currently hold a scapegoat position in the minds of many whites.
The history of white South Africa is hardly spotless – it certainly does not win any prizes with me – but the Xhosa and Zulus and other blacks have not been reduced to 2% of the population. Far from it. And that despite the fact that whites were much stronger militarily and despite the fact that South Africa is outside the malaria belt, making it a good place for whites to live.
If genocide is just tribalism + technology, then South Africa was fertile ground. But it did not take place there, not on a huge scale. Because there is SOMETHING ELSE going on. I do not know what that something else is. Most likely it is cultural.
“Psychological disorder or something close to it” is, as noted in the post, a GUESS. Whatever it is SOMETHING IS WRONG. It goes beyond the ordinary “man’s inhumanity to man” into some sicko stuff. That is my point.
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@ Jason:
A good analogy is wife beating. It used to be accepted. Later it was a shameful secret. Now wife beaters are seen as troubled individuals with psychological issues. Racism is like that, probably more than you know, but in the mainstream American culture it is barely at step two (shame).
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hmmm. I don’t know. I don’t think that that’s going to happen.
I mean listen to what you just said…
That is doublespeak. If something happens TO you, than by definition you are not responsible. See what i’m saying? It doesn’t make logical sense. Is it one or the other? If it’s both, than it’s too much of a contradiction for anyone to swallow. To use Abagond’s example…Does becoming a wife beater happen TO you? It’s something you are, something you do personally on a one to one basis to another human being.
Just so you know i’m not in disagreement so much as i’m trying to craft a consistent narrative or complete picture.
You don’t. Unless you actually want WP to get on board with you. You can’t just call people crazy and expect them to go along with that….. ESPECIALLY if they ARE actually crazy.
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Diplomacy said:
1. I am a racist and openly admitted it:
2. I am talking about White Americans, not everyone with a white skin. Also, I do not necessarily mean ALL White Americans, but certainly enough where it can and does affect history. And even affects the sort of comments I get on this blog.
3. If people do not talk about racism, then it will never go away. Slavery and lynching certainly did not go away through a campaign of silence.
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@jason,
I mean listen to what you just said…
“take responsibility for it, as something bad that’s happened to themselves”
That is doublespeak. If something happens TO you, than by definition you are not responsible. See what i’m saying? It doesn’t make logical sense. Is it one or the other? If it’s both, than it’s too much of a contradiction for anyone to swallow.
Right, you’re not responsible for the bad thing that happened to you–being raised as “white”–but once you realize that you’re impaired because you’ve been raised that way, THEN you’re responsible for trying to fix yourself. That’s what I think white people are responsible for, but yeah, if no one tells them, it’s harder to blame them for not fixing a problem within themselves that they can’t even see.
Unless you actually want WP to get on board with you. You can’t just call people crazy and expect them to go along with that….. ESPECIALLY if they ARE actually crazy.
Right again, but like I said, most POC who can see that “craziness” in WP don’t call out WP on it in daily life, because doing so is pointless, and even dangerous. That requires certain conditions, certain contexts, as well as a willingness on a white person’s part to even listen. So as I said above, why should POC have to tiptoe around like that EVEN HERE, on a blog where a black man writes with a lot of experience and understanding about white supremacy?
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Okay Abagond
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@Abagond
“This post … is about WHITE AMERICANS. … It is not about the white race. It is about WHITE AMERICANS.”
I hear you clearly Abagond. I think I see it a little differently. And I could be incorrect! As long as other so-called “white” countries or populations (heads of states, journalists, the people,etc) are quiet and their “WHITE HEARTS” are not calling out their white American brethren for their over-the-top racism, (why aren’t they) then they are corporately complicit (in their whiteness) by their silence. Whites have always expected PoC to disavow, or go on record as being against the actions of other PoC whenever we engage in any acts which whites find distasteful. So why should whites (everywhere) not be held to this same “reasonable(?)” expectation? Plus, the last time I looked, Great Britain, Australia and other white countries are part and parcel of American led militaristic mis-adventures against non-white countries all over the globe. Nor would I call any of those countries post-racial utopias. I agree that America is the worst of the bunch, but the other folks elsewhere who proudly wear their “whiteness” label don’t deserve a free pass – in my opinion.
Nonetheless, I agree with the thrust of your post.
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@ Matari:
I think it does go beyond White Americans – the Germans and Australians come to mind. The French and South Africans have shown themselves to be racist, but not to the same degree as the Americans. But you also see the same issue in Ethiopia, Sudan and Rwanda, so it is not just whites. I have written posts about Sudan, but since I live in America, it concerns me most.
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Are you not as guilty of racism as the whites you accuse of racism? If not, why not?
No he is not, even though he professes to be:
http://www.yorku.ca/tteo/teach/Teo1999b.htm
Scroll down to the end where definitions are given to some different types of racism. In particular:
Reactive racism: Groups and individuals oppressed by racism may regain a positive concept of their race and may construct the oppressors as a race, too. The power of thinking in races shows that victims of racism are not beyond racism themselves. Yet, I want to emphasize theoretical caution here, as there might be good reasons to challenge reactive racism as a concept. Conceptual caution is required as one takes the societal power of construction and action into account. Who, within a given society, has the power to propose constructions and meanings that gain acceptance? Who has the power to evaluate these constructions? Who has the power to put these constructions into practice? Victims of racism rarely have the cultural or political power to make their constructions dominant.
Moreover, the phenomenon of reactive racism has been abused to render everyone equally a racist, so that the victims appear no better than the perpetrators. If everybody is racist, then why should there be a special effort to challenge the racism of any one group? However, this political strategy is used to maintain structural and societal forms of racism. Of course the basic error in such thought is the individualistic neglect of societal power. Yet, despite the danger that the dominant group imposes reactive racism as a concept, it seems appropriate — from a psychological point of view — to include this type of racism, while being aware of the problems associated with this concept.
It would appear that you are the racist here. it would appear that this particular line describes you to a ‘T’, a reiteration of the above:
Moreover, the phenomenon of reactive racism has been abused to render everyone equally a racist, so that the victims appear no better than the perpetrators.
I accuse you of being a very racist person, Matari.
I’m sure Matari is sobbing into the liquor stolen at the smash and grab sale downtown. Maybe Matari flew out to Merry Olde England to join the riots. Too bad she was too late. Oh well, Matari can always resort to stealing as per the examples you used.
Gentlemen, can you not see the wickedness in your own writings, and the inevitable result? – the fuelling of racism.
Not only are you a racist but a sexist also! What about the broads posting here?
Note to PoC: It’s interesting how the meaning of “racist” has evolved over a relative short period of time by “whiteness” to include the most marginalized and mistreated people if they dare talk about or attempt to analyze – whiteness/white supremacy/white people. It’s a charge that meant to silence or derail.
@Matari: It’s the old”But that happened to me too!”, argument’ or how’s this; “Get over it”. It’s like being an alcoholic, you need to admit to it before you can begin to overcome it. Many haven’t reaced that juncture yet. And so it goes.
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@ Abagond
Illogical reasoning. White American racism is unnatural simply because it goes further than the racism of other groups of people? That is about as reasonable as calling Mount Everest unnatural simply because it’s bigger and more spectacular than other mountains. If you want to say that something is unnatural you have to show that is was created by unnatural means. Good luck with that. Your best attempt at pointing out the unnatural aspects of white Americans is blaming their culture, but since they and their culture are not separate entities, since they created and uphold the culture, blaming their culture is effectively blaming them.
Illogical reasoning. Human behavior is not deterministic. Similar circumstances do not have to lead to similar outcomes. The fact that the outcomes are not similar is not evidence that something else is going on. People are not that simple.
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I see you are all very good at cicular arguments. Let’s post some definitions on the web, and then later we’ll refer to them to support our own way of thinking.
Very few answers here, just a recycling of the same tired old rhetoric from you.
Abagond at least had the courtesy to directly answer my question, and admit he’s a racist. Asergum cannot read English it seems, and Matari appears to be chronically incapable of doing anything (on this site) apart from holding a “down with whitey” banner. I don’t red answers, just the same drivel. As for Leigh, does “woot woot” represent your eloquence?
I used not to be racist, in the sense that I grew up with, played with, work with and socialise with black people, or “PoC” as you call them. At work or play I have always been colour blind, but reading this site makes me wonder.
I know when I’m not welcome, so having stirred the pot a bit I shall leave you all to your delusions that there’s a wicked white plot against you all, that white people are sick and twisted, that you’re all victims. The fact that you are all feeding the very racism you complain about is your problem, not mine. The fact that this very attitude of yours is probably largely responsible for many of your perceived grievances is again, your problem.
(PS “Gentlemen” is simply old-fashioned shorthand for all, sorry if that upsets the ladies, I never did cross the gender neutral rubicon. Just another reason for you all to hate me I guess.)
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@ Diplomacy:
People here have little patience with you because they have heard this stuff a zillion times before. You are not like some amazing genius bestowing enlightenment on our darkened souls. Instead of saying something profound you are saying something that is profoundly self-serving.
By your rules I can only talk about white racism if I do not bring white people into it – otherwise I am being racist! Wow, I wonder who benefits from that rule.
By my rules you can talk about anyone’s racism, even black people’s racism, which I have written posts on myself.
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@ eco:
You are ankle-biting. You know perfectly well what I mean.
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Abagond,
This post, if you read it, is about WHITE AMERICANS. You seem to keep missing that. It is not about the white race. It is about WHITE AMERICANS
Actually I did read the post. But thanks for insinuating that I didn’t.
Anyhoo… I do realize that your post is about White Americans, but you hardly, if ever, qualify that.
More importantly, how does that in any way negate my comments regarding your portrayal of White people as having a “psychological disorder”. Isn’t it a little hypocritical to promote that kind of argument while simultaneously dismissing that same argument when it’s used against other groups, especially Black people?
And isn’t it a little hypocritical to diagnose people you’ve never known or met with a psychological disorder, when on your very blog you have discouraged and outright stamped out such behavior in the comments section?
How is it fair to summarily rubber-stamp an entire group of people based solely on your own conjecture as having “something wrong” with them fundamentally, when you justifiably accuse Whites for utilizing those selfsame tactics in regards to Black people??
And isn’t it a little hypocritical to call White American racism “unnatural” when racism is quite common amongst Whites in general? And isn’t it even disingenuous to say that White American racism is somehow worse than other examples of racism, including those perpetuated by non-White people?
I mean, if you honestly think that no example of racism is worse than racism in America then you are the one being ethnocentric here. I’m sure Chinua Achebe and Nelson Mandela would disagree with you as I do. Shoot, Mahatma Gandhi, Frantz Fanon, and Paul Rusesabagina would disagree with you as I do.
But that isn’t to normalize or mitigate or diminish the very real fact that White people have been some of the greatest, and most pathetic perpetrators of oppression in the modern world. Quite the opposite. Because isn’t it merely an inverse of Arab Slave Trader argument to sensationalize one facet of bigotry to the detriment of other equally valid, equally horrible, and equally prolific forms of racism? Especially when said racism is being explained as the result of a psychological disorder you can neither prove, nor justify?
I guess it comes down to this: based on your experiences as a Black man in America, I can respect that you do not trust White people, and in fact hold negative stereotypes about them based solely on their skin-color. Moreover, I can respect that you see Whites as non-human, and constantly attempt to dehumanize them based on comments like, “power has turned their hearts to stone” and insinuations that something is fundamentally wrong with White people, that we are somehow akin to Wife Beaters, that we are deranged…
And this is where you and I differ, because I believe…
We. Are. Not. Evil.
Yes, White people are responsible for a lot of oppression, racism, and other terrible things in this world. Yes, we need to discuss these things. Yes, White people need to realize the sheer amount of privilege they reap merely from being born White, and all the historical, political, economic, sociological, racial, sexual, and all other ish that went into this reality.
BUT, we are not evil.
I may be a flawed, racist human being. But I am not deranged. I am not like a wife beater. I am NOT suffering from a psychological disorder.
And while I cannot fault you for feeling this way based on your own negative experiences, I can and do fault you for realizing that you are being racist (as you admit on your blog) and yet not working against it while you, and others here, advocate that White people own up to their racism.
Essentially, I think you have allowed yourself a pass to be EXACTLY what you hate, merely because White people get to do it all the time and so that makes it “okay” because it won’t affect anyone anyways.
Or maybe that’s just my privilege talking.
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Why do other countries not seem as racist?
Well; it may come down to greater levels of assimilation…..black british people often seem pretty “british” by that I mean, they “seem” to be culturally white.
Maybe since I’m from the US I’m simply missing the subtle clues that I can pick up in my own country…..but its something I’ve heard of black guys from other countries having to deal with when they come here they get accused of acting “white”.
Also as for why we put more emphasis on it; the US looks at itself as a melting pot and also tries to be PC about it and respect other cultures. Making all other cultures conform into your own and lose their own self-identity wouldn’t really be respecting other cultures then.
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@matari et all: I think I have written before about my own experiences (in different continents in different decades) during my younger years in this blog but to put it short: I have seen racism at work myself plenty. I have been twice in US in a situation where so-called law officers have been pointing their guns at me, just because I happened to be with the wrong guys. The scariest incident happened back in 80’s with some native guys I was travelling with and because of my long hair the authorities did not at first realise that I was a foreigner, so I got the whole treatment right there and then. The other time I was out with my black friends and were stopped at night by the police. Other smaller incidents happened too.
I have been living in USA twice, I have been in Britain few times, once live in London for a while, and I have been in Africa. I have been in Middle East and travelled around the Europe some. I have seen racism and I know it does exists in Europe. The guy I am currently training at the gym comes from Togo. I have friends among the kurds, albanians, ethiopians, vietnamese etc. So I have some incling about the every day racism in Europe.
I have done bad things when I was much younger, not to the people of color though, but bad anyways. But I woke up and changed the way I live my life. It took some work and still does, but I work on it. When bad things happen around and everybody says it is ok, one has to say No. How many of us can do that every time in real life? It is not easy, specially when we are talking about racism which can be ingrained into very practises of every day life as it is in USA. One has to be alert and think, not just shout and rage (even though there are times for that too).
Racism in USA is not just some evil white demons lurkin in the shadows. It is in the culture and in the system itself. I am not smart enough to deconstruct all of that but I understand where it is, roughly.
My reference to Ruud Gullit and those guys was meant to point out the difference between the general atmosphere over here and over in USA. When André was playing the beautiful game in Gunners, he was refferred as french, not as a black guy, which he was by american standards. In finnish news papers and sports stories athletes are referred by their nationality, not by their color. When Wilson Kirwa was in finnish national team, he was Wilson Kirwa the finn, not the black member of the team. Because he was black, his backround came up sometimes and he brought it up many times: he was a masai from Kenya originally. Not just a black guy. Many times in US sports raporting they talk about “the black team members”, “one of the best black athletes” etcetc. Small but I think significant difference.
By cooling down I did not mean that the passion should capped. This is a subject which has to bring out emotions and that is fine. By cooling down I meant focusing to the topic here and trying to figure out what it is in the american system what keeps the racism and racist practises very much alive. More analytical approach, I guess, instead of those same pharses which were used against forexample against the jews for centuries: “They are demonic!”.
A good example how even the most evil whites can come to terms of their deeds is Germany. Not one german, excluding some of the neo nazis, denies the holocaust or that they were wrong at the time. They know that. They accept that. They understand that. But most of them also understand that despite what their grandfathers did, they are not the same. They can be different and they are. The German society, with all its faults, is not the same as the nazi Germany 65 yrs ago. The reason? They had to take account of what they had done. The whole society had to. And they did.
In USA there has been none of that. What ever change there has been, and I think Obama is a living proof of the fact that there has been a huge change in the last 20 yrs, has come from the people. Civil rights movement, all these, were not goverment issued and started. That is the problem. The whole system has changed not because there has been a will to change in the system, but because the people have forced it to change. The same goes with the american culture too. It has changed because the people have changed it. No radio DJ dares to talk about Negro music anymore, they use more subtle terms.
I wish this debate would sink its teeth on that: The whole system. Why the hell the US goverment wants to even know ones “race” and why it is ok for the americans? Why it is ok to even define people by race? Why the hell it is “normal”?
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Forgot one thing: What I have seen and experienced in US was the culture of Fear. News media, people talking, the whole gun culture, the fear is everywhere. I was told, by some black guys too, that I should not hang around with the native guys because “they are unpredictable”, “when they get drink they get crazy”, “you’ll never know what they do” etc.
In USA I was more warned about the dangers lurking around everywhere more than in Lagos, Nigeria, which is one of the most dangerous places to be, specially if you are a white guy. I was told that I should never go to Harlem un escorted. I did and nothing happened. I was told I should never take an intitation to somebodys place unless I know them well. I did and came out alive. Heck, I even went to an all black club, in which I was told (by some black guys) I’ll be robbed and killed and raped and murdered for good measure. I was not.
Again and again I was told that I should never trust anybody. I was told this by the black guys, university professors, immigrants, white folks, latinos, even a chinese guy told me that I should never trust a friendly person because, even if he is white, “he can be a serial killer or something like that”.
Is that normal?
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@ Zek:
Yes, of course I insinuated you did not read the post because you keep missing my point. You are getting all Thad on me. I keep having to repeat myself.
I did not summarily rubber stamp anything or act like I am all-knowing. I said the psychological disorder stuff was a GUESS. A fair one, I think, but I said I DID NOT KNOW. That is what a guess is. Like in Jeopardy.
You are making my statements way more extreme than they are. Other examples of that:
1. I never ever said that White Americans are the worst racists.
2. I never ever said that White Americans are non-human or anything close to that.
But I did say there is something wrong with them. Given the extreme nature of their actions, I think that is a safe thing to say.
For example, Ethiopia has repeatedly been the scene of genocides. That tells me that something is seriously wrong. The same with White America. On this very blog genocide is being NORMALIZED.
White is not always right. Sometimes it is seriously screwed up. Big time.
I know this sounds like I am just flipping the black pathology script. Fair enough. I understand the temptation. Which is why I have been careful in what I have said and stuck to some clear-cut things
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@ sam
You are right on the money about this culture of fear thing. I think as an outsider you have a unique perspective but it’s something i’ve noticed as well and I think it really degrades our quality of life here. I hate it and refuse to live that way myself.
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@ aspergum
I see your point. So, my youngest son is 4 months old. I’m wondering what you would do as a parent of a white child to try to mitigate against “impairment”
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“If genocide is just tribalism + technology, then South Africa was fertile ground. But it did not take place there, not on a huge scale. Because there is SOMETHING ELSE going on. I do not know what that something else is. Most likely it is cultural. ”
Nobody said tribalism + technology = genocide. maybe Randy did but that’s Randy.
What I said was that tribalism or othering or whatever you want to call it + power or advantage = dominance of one group over another. This is always, always, always the case.
This dominance can play out in a variety of ways, genocide being the most extreme.
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Kudos, jasOnburns!
My advice–develop some non-white friends (more than one!), if you don’t have any, and interact with them with your kids (I assume you have more than one, since you said “youngest”). Watch movies that have central non-white characters with them. Go to cultural events that include a lot of non-white people. Enroll them in schools that have large non-white student populations. In other words, do whatever you can to promote extensive contact with actual POC. And when they’re old enough, demonstrate your active commitment to anti-racism, by doing political work, charity work, community activism, and so on; continually discuss these activities with your kids, and encourage them to join you. Go to anti-racism public lectures on a nearby campus if there is one, and bring your kids along; they may fidget, but they’ll gather the general point, and more importantly, your commitment to it. Give you kids some books and other presents that center POC, instead of white people; work against the false idea that white kids can relate better to other kids just because they’re white. And when you’re with them, sometimes label things and people that are white with that word, “white”; do what you can against the insidious naturalization of whiteness as “normal,” which is what happens when whiteness is not marked. And finally, point out differences among both whites and non-whites, especially in class terms; help them see especially that not all black or Latina/o people are the same.
All of that and more will mitigate against the impairment, the racist socialization process, that inevitably comes about from insular contact with only or mostly only white people, and from insidious messaging from the corporate media, which of course favors whiteness in a million ways, and denigrates non-whiteness in nearly as many.
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@Herneith
You never disappoint, or fail to amaze me. If you were to ever do stand-up comedy, I would buy front row seats! If you ever authored a book, I’d buy it! “..smash and grab..” lol Having a “smashing time” (British saying?) has taken on a new meaning.
Thanks for the teaching moment. There are so many (too many) types of racism… aversive, colorblind, micro-aggression, micro-insult .. and so on, I can barely keep abreast of it all. The system of white-supremacy is very well maintained, and constantly refining itself.
@ Sam & Jason
I’m a native New Yorker. But most of my life has been spent in slightly more sane places. None of these other places had the same heightened “fear factor” New York city possesses. The fear problem is compounded by segregation, that is whites living/working with whites, and non-whites living/working with non-whites. And it’s changing, SLOWLY, via gentrification and other means, but a lot of the attitudes that are mired in fear (and whiteness) still persists. This separateness BS that whiteness creates harms everyone. As a tall and imposing looking (to some) black man, I’ve long observed the ability I have to alter public – mostly white – spaces (and reactions) just by simply being in attendance.
@ whomever – just to be clear:
The fact that whiteness IS EVIL does not mean that everyone living in white skin is evil. I’m simply saying that the system/religion of white supremacy that many (whites as well as non-whites) worship (give honor and glory to, unconsciously or otherwise) is an evil system.
I do not hate people. I just sometimes hate what they do, regardless of their color.
@ Abagond
Brother Abagond. If YOU are a racist, then I will ask God to give us 40 million more inspired “racists” who are “racists” in the same manner as you. Perhaps then this nonsense might be over in our lifetime. 🙂
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As a tall and imposing looking (to some) black man, I’ve long observed the ability I have to alter public – mostly white – spaces (and reactions) just by simply being in attendance.
Matari,
You comments about carefully and self-consciously navigating public space as a black man remind me of Brent Staples’ essay, “Black Men and Public Space.” Maybe you already know of it?
http://facstaff.uww.edu/carlberj/Journal3.htm
My first victim was a woman–white, well-dressed, probably in her late twenties. I came upon her late one evening on a deserted street in Hyde Park, a relatively affluent neighborhood in an otherwise mean, impoverished section of Chicago. As I swung onto the avenue behind her, there seemed to be a discreet, uninflammatory distance between us. Not so. She cast back a worried glance. To her, the youngish black man–a broad six feet two inches with a beard and billowing hair, both hands shoved into the pockets of a bulky military jacket–seemed menacingly close. After a few more quick glimpses, she picked up her pace and was soon running in earnest. Within seconds, she disappeared into a cross street. . . .
On late evening constitutionals I employ what has proved to be an excellent tension-reducing measure: I whistle melodies from Beethoven and Vivaldi and the more popular classical composers. Even steely New Yorkers hunching toward nighttime destinations seem to relax, and occasionally they even join in the tune. Virtually everybody seems to sense that a mugger wouldn’t be warbling bright, sunny selections from Vivaldi’s Four Seasons. It is my equivalent to the cowbell that hikers wear when they know they are in bear country.
LOL, needs more cowbell!
😉
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I agree with the segregation issues in NY. However, it’s not just a Whites/non-Whites issue. NY is full of Latinos, Asians, and Middle Easterners, all of whom have their own cultural segregation issues. Most of the time, these people are working in places with an ethnic mix of employees, but for some reason, they tend to self segregate outside of work. I agree that it is changing SLOWLY, but much more rapidly out here in the West.
I totally agree. It is the long-standing White-favoring SYSTEM which is the main problem. The system is the backbone of racism in this country. Without it, the culture of racism would collapse much more quickly than it has. But obviously there are White people (and many non-Whites) who believe in the system and knowingly support the current racial hierarchy.
My one bone of contention is that the phrase “Whiteness” to label the system is obviously confusing. It may be pithy, but not practical as a descriptor. It’s kind of like calling Black pathology “Blackness” then going on to describe how Blacks have defined themselves and developed certain persistent cultural problems. It is too easy to equate the pathology to the skin color. I get that White people created “Whiteness” but that doesn’t make it any easier to use in conversation.
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@Aspergum:
Yes.
@King
I don’t think I share your same exact concern, for reasons too complex to get into here and now.
If not “whiteness” what term would you use?
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@ V-4
‘Well; it may come down to greater levels of assimilation…..black british people often seem pretty “british” by that I mean, they “seem” to be culturally white
Please explain- what on earth do you mean? Are you trying to say that Black British people do not bring forth their own cultural heritage? That we’re a darker shade of white Britishness?
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“My one bone of contention is that the phrase “Whiteness” to label the system is obviously confusing. It may be pithy, but not practical as a descriptor. ”
Agreed. That’s kind of what I was trying to get at earlier.
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I usually call it “The White System” of the “System of Whiteness” so that people will get that I’m referring to:
a) A way of thinking that can be even be held/accepted by non-White people.
b) A web of laws, codes, and entrenched social practices that favor Whites.
and I would probably add that c) it’s often backed up by an economic policy component.
Yes, it does take more time to type “the White system” than “Whiteness” but I think it’s worth the effort, because the implications of what a “System” means goes a long way to clarify the totality of what you are talking about.
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King,
I agree that “the System of Whiteness” is a useful term and concept, but I don’t like how it implies that there isn’t an overarching System of Classist Oppression, largely owned and operated by people who actively utilize the favoring of whiteness and the abuse of non-whiteness as just one of many similar tools of oppression. I also despair at how discussion of this overarching system of classist oppression, discussion which helps to expose the underlying mechanisms of that one system (that of Whiteness), is often considered a distraction or diversion from discussion and exposure of white supremacy, and even worse, a common white mode of insidious, intentional derailment (and thus, another mere “refinement” of white supremacy).
So, I think it’s great that you would “probably” add that “the System of Whiteness” is often backed by an economic policy component, but I wonder how to better integrate the two, so that the System of Classist Oppression is instead seen as the overarching system of abuse and exploitation, instead of a mere component within “the System of Whiteness”–because that’s not what it is.
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You never disappoint, or fail to amaze me. If you were to ever do stand-up comedy, I would buy front row seats! If you ever authored a book, I’d buy it! “..smash and grab..” lol Having a “smashing time” (British saying?) has taken on a new meaning.
Well, a lot of these posts are absurd and designed for hilarity, especially this ‘Diplomacy’ person. Empathy is what is lacking. Empathy seems to be in short supply. Instead of asking the whys of certain behaviour, people like ‘Diplomacy’ start referring to extreme situations and anonymous respondants to blogs as to why they are starting to become ‘racists’. They are already racist, but looking for an ‘excuse’ to be blatantly so. If someone does something ‘bad’, ‘weird’, or ‘bizarre’, I always ask why? Why are they behaving in such a manner and seek to find answers in order to have some sort of insight as to why they behave the way they do. I certainly don’t use their behaviour as an excuser to give legitimacy to my own biases. I want to know why I have these biases and try to combat them, unless of course I am comfortable with them! A tall black man? If it was me, I would be running up to you, not away from you, hahahaha!!!!! I am Canadian so there is a lot of British phrases peppering my speech. A residue of colonialism I suppose! Besides a good laugh is good for you!
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Herneith,
You make my heart smile! And yes, laughter is good medicine!
Thank you.
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Abagond:
“People here have little patience with you because they have heard this stuff a zillion times before. You are not like some amazing genius bestowing enlightenment on our darkened souls. Instead of saying something profound you are saying something that is profoundly self-serving.”
I do not believe I ever claimed to be any kind of enlightened genius (just as well I hear you scoff), I simply point out to you, again, the profound irony in running a so-called anti-racism blog with some of the most overtly racist comments I have read in recent times written upon it. Whether or not you have patience with me is no concern of mine. Had I written or said in public a fraction of the bile written against whites on this site, and used blacks as my target, I would be in clink right now, at least in the UK. Racism cuts both ways, it’s the fact that you can’t seem to see that which surprises me. I also argue, again, that by making these overtly racist remarks you do more than just destroy your case, because you add fuel to the fire of your opponents.
“By your rules I can only talk about white racism if I do not bring white people into it – otherwise I am being racist! Wow, I wonder who benefits from that rule.”
I do not believe I ever have argued anything of the sort. See my comment above. I am no more interested in white on black racism than I am black on white, and will argue fervently with those who support it. Of course, that’s not good enough for you, because, as far as I can see, most of the contributors on here seem to want a complete sea-change from the status quo to have, as has been stated elsewhere, an Afro-centric society? Forgive me if I have read that incorrectly, and come to the wrong conclusion, but as far as I can see that is what many people here want. Well, you can argue about the wicked capitalists and the capitalist system from now to eternity – you’re not the only people under the thumb of “the system”. You’ll still be trying to change it when the sun is burning helium. I have sympathy with many of the worries expressed about society, and where it is heading, but my sympathy does not extend to supporting rank racism.
“By my rules you can talk about anyone’s racism, even black people’s racism, which I have written posts on myself.”
Please do, but at least look again at this thread, look again at some of the comments written on it, and ask yourself if they could/cannot be construed as racist.
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Maybe I can give an example of how I have seen the White System at work. I’ll give an example of something I’ve seen happen more than once:
An African family immigrates to Los Angeles, and like many immigrants, they are not rich, so they move into South Los Angeles (formerly referred to as South Central LA). Now they have come to the U.S. with some warnings:
– be careful of Black Americans, they can be dangerous and untrustworthy
– if believe that you are a Black American, they are less likely to favor you.
So once they arrive in “the hood” they notice that, true to the warnings, there are gunshots late at night, there are a lot of drugs being sold, it’s dirty, and crime is high (judging by the newspaper and TV news). As a result, they are scared to death, and avoid their neighbors as much possible. This is soon noticed. Those Stuck-up Africans think they’re better than the people who’ve been suffering here since slavery! So now their kids are getting bullied at school, people are messing with them, and calling them ignorant names. Finally the husband lands a better job and they can move to a better neighborhood. They choose one as far away from Black Americans as they possibly can. They keep their heads down, work hard, and do well.
Soon, in addition to having jobs, they are also running a small business. They move again, this time to a White suburb. Now, is there some prejudice there? Probably, but it’s nothing as overt as they experienced back in the ghetto. So, they may not even notice when they aren’t invited to certain people’s houses, or that the kids are never nominated to be class officers in the high school, or that the teachers don’t call on them first, even when they raise their hand first. Those things are hardly noticeable compared to getting beaten up ad having Black Americans ask them why they don’t go back to the Jungle, of if they have a Zebra sandwich in their lunch pail?
Years go by, the kids are in college, the family business is doing well, and they feel they are living the American Dream. They drive German luxury cars, their home is spacious, and well-decorated, their children have scholarships, and are both on-track for pre-med. But ask these immigrants about American Blacks and you’ll get an earful:
———————————————————————————-
^ How the White System effected this story
1) The African’s original warnings about Black Americans were the result of a worldwide phenomenon based in centuries of White-dominated literature, journalism and decades of media. Those implanted assumptions about Black Americans greatly reduced the chances of the Africans ever seeing them without the filter of caution and suspicion from the very first day they arrived.
2) The Black Americans, as a result of being portrayed as ignorant, untrustworthy, and lowdown for so long, have become very sensitive to being looked down upon. Instead of seeing the Africans as people, out of their element, who were frightened, and unsure of themselves, in a strange country, they were quickly seen as yet another group looking down on Black Americans. This viewpoint is a direct reaction to their long a exposure to racism.
And how do the Black Americans respond to the “uppity Africans?” By reinforcing the White System’s racial/classist hierarchy. We may be Blacks, but hey, we’re not as low on the totem pole as you because we don’t come DIRECTLY from the Jungle, like you do! We are better because at least we’re Americanized Blacks!
3) The African family was told (by the White system) not to trust Blacks, and low and behold, it turned out that their fears were confirmed. But they never understood that things would have been just as bad if they had moved into a poor Latino neighborhood, and would have been even worse, if they had moved into a poor White neighborhood. They never understood that there are many Black Americans who do not live in the ghetto and are quite responsible and successful. This equation in which all Black Americans are judged by what happens in the ghetto is a part of the White System’s confirmation bias.
SO here is case where the “White System” is at work, even among Black people who have unknowingly accepted significant portions of it. Would you call this “Whiteness,” even though it is manifesting itself among Black people? I suppose you could, but it would be impractical. I think it’s better to say that the Black people in this story were often motivated by ideas from the White System, even though they were not aware of it. That is what the White System is, a way of thinking that works toward upholding the established White hierarchical construct. You don’t even have to be White to believe in it.
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Aspergum wrote:
“I also despair at how discussion of this overarching system of classist oppression, discussion which helps to expose the underlying mechanisms of that one system (that of Whiteness), is often considered a distraction or diversion from discussion and exposure of white supremacy, and even worse, a common white mode of insidious, intentional derailment (and thus, another mere “refinement” of white supremacy).”
BINGO (well stated)
@ King
“a) A way of thinking that can be even be held/accepted by non-White people.
b) A web of laws, codes, and entrenched social practices that favor Whites.
and I would probably add that c) it’s often backed up by an economic policy component.”
I would add that it is also often backed up by LIES, violence, TORTURE, or the threat of violence. Witness Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran…and so on.
It employs or fabricates bogeymen, bad people (warlords, terrorists, Bin Laden, Taliban) and “others” that are supposedly threats to our so-call freedoms and democracy in order to legitimize their imperialistic ventures for $$ profit on sovereign/foreign soil. This is why I have a hard time sugar-coating this “evil” system so the sensibilities of jingoistic (and blind) Americans, whites and non-white might not be offended.
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Had I written or said in public a fraction of the bile written against whites on this site, and used blacks as my target, I would be in clink right now, at least in the UK.
Not only that, you would be kissing the pavement based upon your stereotypes. Perhaps Matari can assist in this, Matari? Whilst in the clink serving your sentence, don’t drop the soap in the shower! Or is it Italian showers they employ in the clink?
I also argue, again, that by making these overtly racist remarks you do more than just destroy your case, because you add fuel to the fire of your opponents.
I hear there are petrol shortages over there, a good thing as we wouldn’t want to give fuel to uppity blacks now would we.
so-called anti-racism blog
Who said this was an anti-racism blog? You sure are dense!
Lest we forget:
Moreover, the phenomenon of reactive racism has been abused to render everyone equally a racist, so that the victims appear no better than the perpetrators. If everybody is racist, then why should there be a special effort to challenge the racism of any one group?
Forgive me if I have read that incorrectly, and come to the wrong conclusion, but as far as I can see that is what many people here want.
What many of the people want is to get paid every other Friday, those that are employed that is. Now was that complicated, or is it circular thinking, heh? Your are forgiven sirrah!
Well, you can argue about the wicked capitalists and the capitalist system from now to eternity – you’re not the only people under the thumb of “the system”.
Hey, without capitalism I wouldn’t be able to feed my addiction to purses and footwear! The only one I have heard referring to economics explicitly was Aspergum. Why not refer your diatribes to Aspergum?
but my sympathy does not extend to supporting rank racism.
Why not, it seems you do. Admit it, you know you want to!
look again at some of the comments written on it, and ask yourself if they could/cannot be construed as racist.
I beg to differ. I think that some of the comments are quite funny, uninformed, and absurd, yours’ the most! Here’s an idiom for you, “Blow it out your hole”. Anyways, I have to get back to the wax drying on the floor. It should be dry by now.
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Abagond:
White racism is about power, money, and envy…Bottomline. It has nothing to do with racial superiority. If that was the case, they wouldn’t waste time and energy trying to keep black people and others beneath them. All of the hatred that is forced upon black people, is a sign to me that a lot of whites aren’t happy being white. A lot of blacks like to dance around this ugly truth or opinion, depending on your state of mind at any given time. Do whites want to be white, I’d like to know the answer to this question? Yes or No!
Tyrone
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“Or is it Italian showers they employ in the clink?”
– Don’t know, never been in one – maybe you do?
“You sure are dense!” and “Blow it out your hole”.
– Thanks, but I think it’s a little early for personal abuse in our relationship.
You are so very eloquent though…..
“Lest we forget:
Moreover, the phenomenon of reactive racism has been abused to render everyone equally a racist, so that the victims appear no better than the perpetrators. If everybody is racist, then why should there be a special effort to challenge the racism of any one group?
Forgive me if I have read that incorrectly, and come to the wrong conclusion, but as far as I can see that is what many people here want.”
Thanks for the selective cutting and pasting, but the words in the first paragraph were not mine, the second are but it refers to an entirely different subject from the first. Nothing like twisting the meaning to give support to your own weak argument is there?
“What many of the people want is to get paid every other Friday, those that are employed that is. Now was that complicated, or is it circular thinking, heh? Your are forgiven sirrah!”
Question: If that is the aim, how is it achieved by posting, for example: “It is my contention that this “sickness” that “whiteness” is goes well beyond psycho-pathological. It’s also a spiritually DEMONIC issue. Yes, I’m stating that “whiteness” is demonic. It’s a spiritual malady that affects everything and everyone on this planet.”, or “Abagond I think you’ve answered this ‘white pathology’ yourself in your post about how Anglos view race as being more important than language. To them race means ‘different levels of human’ with them being on top and others being closer to ‘animal’.”.
Nothing racist there then, is there?
OK I’ve had my fun, I’ll leave you folks to continue to sob and wail at your fate at the hands of the wicked whites. Carry on with the tired old wife beating metaphor, it’s funny to see it recycled so many times. Doubtless you will all make assumptions about me from our brief intercourse on here, after all I’m so very obviously a racist, and a dense one at that. Nice that you can tell that after a mere few hundred words but c’est la vie.
““Reactions” to Racism DOES NOT EQUAL Racism!”
-Thanks for that, by your own definition I’m not a racist, notwithstanding the efforts of so many to paint me as one!
Toodle Pip!
PS, Herneith, I had to fire my cleaner last week for stealing. I don’t suppose you could come and wax my floor for me could you? I pay at least minimum wage, more for good work 🙂
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@ Diplomacy?,
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
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@ Diplomacy?
You’re just grasping at straws dude. The whole “you’re the racist one/stop whining” thing is a waste of time and you’re not even doing a fresh take on it. Nobody cares.
As Abagond has illustrated, calling an American black person a racist is about as inflammatory as calling a WP a cracker. as in, not very. WP are the ones who get all bent out of shape for being called out on our racism. That’s because of the racial power imbalance that exists in American society.
I noticed a few comments in this thread that sounded to me very anti-white. But if you think about it, it’s very tricky to talk about the abuses that white society heaps upon POC without coming off that way, and I might add that most off the POC commenters here have clarified their statements repeatedly to show that it is the system of white supremacy that is the problem.
For example Matari says….
“the fact that whiteness IS EVIL does not mean that everyone living in white skin is evil. I’m simply saying that the system/religion of white supremacy that many (whites as well as non-whites) worship (give honor and glory to, unconsciously or otherwise) is an evil system.”
I’m white and i’m totally fine with the above quote. if you are against racism as you say you are than you should be fine with it too. It’s an unpleasant business i’m afraid, WP aren’t going to come out squeaky clean.
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King
“Would you call this “Whiteness,” even though it is manifesting itself among Black people?”
I’d probably just say something like, “This is what whiteness does to [….] folks..”
I think we both see and understand the same things regrading the insidiousness of the white system (or Euro-centrism or whiteness or white-supremacy/racism). Our key difference is one of semantics. You probably realize that I’m not terribly concerned about the possibility of putting off individual white folks. I’m not here to instruct them – on an individual, one on one level… – or coddle them. Raw power has never conceded to pleading and cajoling.
I know from personal experience that some folks, no matter what you tell or show them will still hear and see what they choose to hear and see, no matter what – just like OUR FRIEND, “Diplomacy.” who imagines that we are “Afro-centric” racists.
Nonetheless, your point is very reasonable based upon YOUR intent, and your illustrations and examples are dead on! “It” is a very wicked infectious disease, poisoning everyone and everything it touches.
Herneith:
“Or is it Italian showers they employ in the clink?”
: )) (?????)
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I think that tribalism is something that’s always been with us and it’s still very much a part of our psyches. I think it goes back to trust and group dynamics. As people, we rely on one another for safety and comfort. I think that as Abagond has stated here and elsewhere, racism goes beyond tribalism, but at the same time it’s tribalism that props racism up and keeps feeding it.
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Italian shower . . . ?
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@ Jason
Thank you.
@Aspergum
Oh! LOL
@Diplomacy
Did you at least visit the website I provided, or look into the insights of any of the folks I named?
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@king: Well said. That friggin system is so overwhelming that one really has to be alert to realise how it functions at all levels and all directions.
@matari:” “It” is a very wicked infectious disease, poisoning everyone and everything it touches.” Well said and right on the money. This System will get one, if one is not very aware of it, all the time.
About New York, when I lived there back in 80’s I noticed this ethnic ghetto system. Tourists were naturally so delighted to walk into Chinatown or Little Italy, not realising that behind the facades of Chinatown you had the tuberculosis infested over crowded housing and sweatshops and Little Italy was a tourist trap, a reminder of the italian slum that used to be there 100 years earlier. Hells Kitchen, back then it was not yet done by the trumps, was loosing its irish identity but had still those small pubs and bars with shamrocks in the doors and windows. That used to be a slum as well and when I was there one day, they found a corpse right next door. Later I learned about the Westies who were there at time too. Alpha Bet City on the Lower East Side was a real mess with latinos, hatians and brazilians etc.
I can not tell how many times I was told by many people were NOT to go, were not to walk, what area to avoid, how to watch out for this and that, do not make an eye contact etc. We lived in 93rd east st so one day I took a stroll up to 96th and down from there to Harlem. Did I get looks? Sure, but nobody robbed me, nobody told me to get FK out, and when I went into one deli (or luch bar type of sandwich place), nobody told me I do not belong. I sipped my cola and ate a pretty good sandwich and went back home.
When I told this to my white neighbours, they were in shock. Except one older guy, who had lived all his life around there, and who used to go to the jazz clubs of Harlem in his youth. But the others were thinking I was crazy. They have drug gangs there, they kill and shoot and murder blablabla. Yes they did, it was the crack epidemic at the time, but I was not there buying dope or hanging with gangstas.
Like Dave Chapell once said pretty well, black people don’t want to live in a slum and are scared of the violent criminals and gun toting drug dealers. It seemed to me that most of the white guys did not understand this simple truth. They did not seem to understand that majority of the people living in poor areas were just poor, not criminal hordes waiting a chance to get the “whiteys”, kill everybody. Most of the guys I talked in Harlem were working men and women, normal humanbeings. And then some white egg head tells me after that: “All those drug dealers up in Harlem…”. Like all those hundreds of thousands of people belonged into some kind of super super crack dealing uzi gang or something…
Pretty weird.
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Yes Sam,
The “controllers” have been using (for 400 years) skin color, fear tactics, lies, red lining neighborhoods, riots, sundown towns, the criminal justice system, employment discrimination, stereotypes, myths, so called “quotas” and other nefarious methods to separate and divide the people while maintaining their mind-control (enchantments) over them. Sadly, it has worked all too well. Unless the scales fall off the eyes of the people – if that ever happens – I’m afraid this mess will be around for a longer time – assuming infantile humanity can survive this current dark age.
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– Thanks, but I think it’s a little early for personal abuse in our relationship.
Come on now, most men love to be verbally abused! At least they know what they are getting at the outset.
You are so very eloquent though…..
Why thank you dear!
Thanks for the selective cutting and pasting, but the words in the first paragraph were not mine, the second are but it refers to an entirely different subject from the first.
No, they are an iteration of my previous post for which I attributed my source.
If that is the aim, how is it achieved by posting, for example: “It is my contention that this “sickness” that “whiteness” is goes well beyond psycho-pathological. It’s also a spiritually DEMONIC issue.
You mean like this?:
Doubtless you will all make assumptions about me from our brief intercourse on here, after all I’m so very obviously a racist, and a dense one at that. Nice that you can tell that after a mere few hundred words but c’est la vie.
Quite the contrary, I enjoy your posts for the very reasons you gave; ‘a racist and a dense one at that’. No, I don’t hate you nor anyone on this site. Hate is too powerful a word when employed here. How can you hate someone who gives their opinion? At least by your own reckoning you are being honest. Besides, You are hilarious!
Toodle Pip!
PS, Herneith, I had to fire my cleaner last week for stealing. I don’t suppose you could come and wax my floor for me could you? I pay at least minimum wage, more for good work
Sorry bub.
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“White racism is about power, money, and envy…Bottomline. It has nothing to do with racial superiority. If that was the case, they wouldn’t waste time and energy trying to keep black people and others beneath them. All of the hatred that is forced upon black people, is a sign to me that a lot of whites aren’t happy being white. A lot of blacks like to dance around this ugly truth or opinion, depending on your state of mind at any given time. Do whites want to be white, I’d like to know the answer to this question? Yes or No!”
Tyrone, I vaguely remember when I was in the hospital, me and a black female nurse had a conversation about God that sidetracked into race. She told me how there was a meeting in the Northeast with some young whites and young blacks. The person asked the black people to list some great things about being black. The black people listed many things including art, science, historical moments, etc.
Then they asked the white students the same thing about being white. The white people didn’t list a thing. Not a darn thing.
This may indicate that there are some whites who are unhappy with being white. Yet, they project their hatred onto other people. They put others down to make themselves feel better like common schoolyard bullies.
I dunno. I’m just sayin’. Though, the question you came up with is needed.
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@ brothawolf
I think Whites don’t make long lists because it always sounds arrogant, given their position in the world. What are they gonna say.
“It’s really great to be White… well, because of the White beauty standard! And besides, we kind of run everything!!”
There are plenty of White accomplishments but they are hard to share when so many things have come at such a high cost to many non-Whites. It rather takes the blush off the rose.
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@ Brothawolf, Tyrone.
Take a look at those white people in that picture. I think I have a good idea why those people can smile into the camera while dead men swing from ropes behind them. In their minds, they have put down a dangerous animal. Same thing with Troy Davis. The men hanging from that tree were seen as a threat, so they were disposed of. They were seen as a threat because black people were and are seen as their own category of life. Back then Blacks were seen as animals by whites and so they were treated as such. Today blacks are seen by whites as people, but still as a different kind of person from WP. Every black person is seen not as an individual, but as a representative of a group of people which possesses a certain list of characteristics many of which are a cause for fear. So the people in that photo are convinced that they’ve just killed “a couple of the bad ones” They can’t conceive of black people being just people the way that whites are. People with real feelings that is. The WP in that picture didn’t kill those men for money or envy. They killed them because they were afraid of them. Once they were killed died, the fear subsided. Power is about fear because the only reason people need to gain power over others is because they are afraid that those others may gain power over them.
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The above link contains a rather sharp observation from that troublesome Mr. Baldwin, who by Diplomacy?’s understanding of how the world works is undoubtedly a hateful, though eloquent (for a black person?) racist intellectual.
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I’m not sure that completely explains it.
What if there was a a dangerous wolf, a deadly animal that was terrorizing a village. Now, you might expect that the men would hunt down that wolf, corner him and shoot him. Then perhaps afterward, they’d have a big celebration, and take photos next to the slain enemy and gather souvenirs. All is safe again.
But what if the men cornered the wolf and threw ropes around it, tying it up. Then they invited the whole village out, including the children. Then they hauled the bound wolf up to a platform and began cutting off the wolf’s paws one bloody digit at a time. The wolf howls and yelps in pain, and this causes the crowd to cheer. Then they take hot irons out of the fire and begin burning the wolf with the red hot metal as it stumbled around on it’s now bloody stumps. The crowd roars with laughter and hoots! Then they pull the binding ropes tight and stick the white hot poker right into the wolf’s eyes one at a time. The great canine body is trembling in unbelievable pain, so they get a rope around its neck and begin to strangle the beast! You can hear the strangled breaths as it struggles for each breath. Men with stick begin beating the blind, mutilated, wolf as it struggles. This goes on and on and the children laugh in amusement. Then a man climbs up the platform with a flask of kerosine, and drenches the wolf in the flammable liquid. The crowd roars it approval!! So the beaten and strangling animal is finally burned alive as it flails about in it’s final agony. The crowd cheers as the animal’s dying shrieks become louder and louder. Then it collapses an dies at last.
Now, do you think that anybody who would do that to a wolf?
No, that kind of hatred and horrendous cruelty can only be done to a man.
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“No, that kind of hatred and horrendous cruelty can only be done to a man.”
It was done to black (and pregnant) women also! And it’s still being done – in a slightly less outrageous manner.
@Jason
Blacks are still viewed as monkeys and apes. That hasn’t changed. Recent studies have shown this “association” still persists. It’s just more backstage.
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Yes, it was done to so many “outsiders” throughout history. Do you know your history of the Inquisitions? If not, I can very easily refresh your memory with scenes as gruesome, bloody, and heartless, as anything from the realm of White Supremacy—only then, it was Catholic Supremacy that was at issue. Whites killing other Whites with the same sadistic zeal as was employed by the lynch mob!
Just say the word, and I will make you blush with shame to be a human.
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Part of the reason white people may not know much about white accomplishments is; they already view themselves as great or whatever, no need to make a list when you are innately awesome. It simply is.
So they don’t feel a need to justify themselves.
Whereas various individuals of one minority or another have grown up with negative images projected at them and feel a need to point out the accomplishments and good things that they and their people have done throughout the years.
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King, that torture, you describe, is in itself rather similar to how some villages treated the DEAD bodies of man-eating animals, for obvious reasons. Suppose you are part of a posse finding out that the local cop has killed and raped the 12-year old daughter of his neighbour, wouldn’t you feel a lot happier if he ended up like that, to avoid a miscarriage of justice? Lynching is a normal part in the evolution of justice.
The sickening part is WHY the men were lynched.
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Abagond,
White is not always right. Sometimes it is seriously screwed up. Big time.
I wouldn’t disagree with that statement. But if I am getting “all Thad on you” then I’m actually quite pleased, because while he was certainly argumentative, he was also RIGHT a lot of the time.
Anyhoo, it comes down to very fine points, but I suppose we can sum up your position as this: …there is something wrong with them. [White people]
And while I pity that feeling you carry within, I also bristle at the accusation. I AM a White person, albeit a Jewish one. There is nothing “wrong” with me. Certainly not any more wrong than there is with the rest of humanity who’ve been born into this imperfect world of ours. I won’t excuse my mistakes, but I will also not feel as if I am defective merely for having been born with pale skin!
Maybe you should consider that White people are still people… That’s all I’m saying. Because it seems like you’ve forgotten.
Teddy,
That you called lynching “a normal part in the evolution of justice” is a lot more sickening than why. Since when is justice normally supposed to evolve into mobs of people killing others at will?
Because that sounds like deevolution to me…
King,
Co-sign your comment to Brothawolf. It’d be difficult to demonstrate “White Pride” without being called a racist, and probably because the only people who make such statements typically ARE racists. Not that it wouldn’t be interesting to see some kind of list of White accomplishments, it seems more likely that White people will continue to divide it by their ethnicity or nationality, or heritage, or ancestry — like, “I’m proud to be Swedish because Swedes invented such & such.”
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@teddy: “Lynching is a normal part in the evolution of justice.”
Ööh… No it is not. Lynching is not, has never been, is never going to be about justice, and I do not care who you are lynching. Lynching is about law thrown out of the window, justice being thrown into a trahs bin. It has nothing to do with justice.
You confuse lynching with hanging, which was one form of death penalty back in the days (and still used some places). But you get the death penalty only after the court but lynching just like that. Lynching is mob running amok, it is wild and uncontrolled, un checked, un just and simply very much violence without any reason.
I have no idea what this so called white pride could be. Am I proud of my daughter? Yes. Some of my deeds? Yes. But do they have anything to do with the color of my skin? No. Am I proud to be a finn? Seldomly. I am not much of a nationalist either. Do I love my homeland? Yes, the soil, the forests, the lakes, the people. The government? Not much.
My both grandfathers served in the army during the WW2 and while I am proud that they went trough that hell for me to live in a free country, I don’t participate much to the flag waving. The veterans I have talked to have said almost to man that the thing they were thinking when things got really bad was not the flag, not the state nor the government or something like that. It was their families, their loved ones, homes. Nothing else.
The only reason I went trough the mandatory service was that what they had done. If they, ordinary working men, were ready to do that for me, I had to be ready to do the same. Not because it is cool, because of my government, the flag, national anthem, but because of them, my grandparents, my parents, my family, my home. That is all.
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@ Zek,
It’s quite sad that you as a white person can’t see that being socialized as white means there is something wrong with you. You’ve been encouraged in a thousand ways to assume a lot of good things about yourself and “your” people, and a lot of bad things about others (as well as some things you unconsciously envy about them as well). If you can’t see that in yourself yet, it means you just haven’t found it, not that it’s not there. Which is not to say all white people are BAAAAAAD. It’s to say that they have proclivities; some learn to counter them, some don’t. And some realize that they’re there inside them, no matter what they do, and some don’t.
@ jason,
You left out the sexual element. Lynchings of black men had a lot to do with sexual matters, and hanging one was a manifestation of them; it didn’t put out those sexual drives and anxieties in whites, it stoked them. See another James Baldwin reading on this, his grimly honest short story, “Going to Meet the Man.”
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@ Proudchocolategirl
I stopped watching the video clip at the 3:52 mark…
This is what this mental/spiritual/emotional DISEASE does to people – the oppressors and the oppressed alike. I’ll say it again, this crap, if left unchecked, has the capacity to DESTROY ALL LIFE on Earth. This is why “whiteness” (not white people) and white supremacy has got to go!
People have got to cease to identify with being WHITE – calling themselves WHITE – because the labeling of one’s self that way is where all of this crap began – and continues to this day..
(I see now why America’s overseas “white” brethren won’t/can’t call out America’s racism.)
@ “white” people (those who “get” it and those who want to get it.)
Do right by humanity, and yourselves, by raising/teaching your young to LOVE ALL PEOPLE. Be their example and role model. Teach them that although they appear to be “white” (according to society’s ..) that they are in fact NOT white.Teach them WHY they don’t want to be associated with that label. And that by identifying with “whiteness” they are assuredly risking the corruption of their psyches and their souls. Little children do NOT need to grow up believing in a LIE. They can choose be categorized with something other than a color, with your help. It’s never going to end unless YOU END IT.
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@ Zek
I think I have to grudgingly go along with aspergum on this. It’s not fun to admit but WP myself included have been conditioned to think that we are better than black people and that’s just the way it is. the conditioning is quite subtle and seductive and growing up you’re really totally unaware that it’s happening but it is. it’s not even something we are necessarily conscious of, but it’s there. I’m afraid that all of that taken into consideration amounts to the “something wrong” or “screwed up” Aspergum and others were talking about.
Of course as individuals, people can be screwed up psychologically in a great number of ways. There are all kinds of crazy. So while this superiority complex white people seem to have is very real, that doesn’t necessarily mean we are the most screwed up people on earth or anything. Crazy comes in all shapes sizes and colors so admitting that WP have issues doesn’t automatically put us in the inferior or defective bin while leaving everyone else as “more or less OK”
Some people may be interested in trying to measure this white pathology against the perceived pathologies of other races and come up with some sort of quantifiable measurement, but i’m not. Such a measurement would be both impossible to find and useless if you did find it. I know that there is plenty of crazy to go around whatever race you’re looking at. The point is to acknowledge what it is that may be affecting you so you can deal with it or at least be aware of it.
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@V-4
I would really like to hear your response to this comment…….
‘Well; it may come down to greater levels of assimilation…..black british people often seem pretty “british” by that I mean, they “seem” to be culturally white
Please explain- what on earth do you mean? Are you trying to say that Black British people do not bring forth their own cultural heritage? That we’re a darker shade of white Britishness?
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There’s an extended LIST of websites on this page (see below) that may be of some benefit to those who might learn .. (you still lurking around Diplomacy?)? It’s located between the “commenting guidelines” and the actual comments.
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/02/commenting-guidelines.html
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The links suggested by Matari:
SUGGESTED NEWBIE RESOURCES
Racism 101 for Clueless White People, Written by a Slightly Less Clueless White Person
Racism 101
Racism = Prejudice + Power
How to Be an Anti-racist Ally
Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack (PDF)
teach their children to act white
Why White Students Need to Learn about Their Own Race
A Primer for Whites
I Am Racist!
Talking about the Hard Stuff (Racism 101)
generously provide examples of problematic white behavior
How to Suppress Discussions of Racism
Uprooting Colorblind Racism
How to argue like a white racist
Baby-stepping Away from Racism: A Guide for White People
White Women’s Tears
White Liberal Bingo
The Glosario
How to Tell People They Sound Racist
So You Think You’re an Anti-racist?
We Have Feelings Too, or The Cost Of Being A POC in Race Discussions
The Dos and Don’ts of Being a Good Ally
When Allies Fail — Part One
When Allies Fail — Part Two
Systemic Racism and the White Racial Frame
How I Benefit from White Privilege
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@ Zek:
If the only way I can talk about this stuff is to have white people twist what I say and paint me as a racist, so be it. You are hardly the first and will hardly be the last.
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Abagond,
Oh please. You called yourself racist about 20 comments up in a post on your own blog!
I don’t need to “paint” you as anything, nor do I want to. I genuinely want to understand your position. But I also want to point out the problems with it, because I think doing so is… well, a Good Thing. Others may find that these kinds of conversations are pointless — and maybe they are! — but they’re the small stuff that’ll accumulate into bigger changes in the future.
That said, dismissing legitimate concerns based on your own words and actions through deflecting tactics is your prerogative. I guess I just thought you were above that ish.
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@ Zek:
My apologies. The way you kept misunderstanding me made it seem like you were not being serious.
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What is justice to you Sam? Is Roe vs. Wade justice to you?
I do believe that lynchings will be as much justice as a court sentenced hanging, if the state is a failed one, the court system is corrupt, the law unjust or the judge partial.
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Aspergum (oh, and Jason I suppose),
Actually it’s sad that you as a complete and total stranger are so lacking in compassion or humanity that you’d freely assume there is something “wrong” with me based solely on my race.
Shall I post a definition of racism, or do we all remember what that word actually means?
But I digress. I’m not saying White haven’t done completely horrible things. I’m not saying we’re NOT doing horrible things right now in America. I’m not even saying that White people aren’t racist. We are often racist, and we often do completely terrible things to other racial/ethnic/religious/sexual groups based on prejudice and bigotry.
But I am *trying* to remind the crowd that White people ARE STILL people, and blaming our failures on some ambiguous psychological disorder you can neither prove, nor morally justify, is Wrong. Furthermore, by insinuating that we are, by the very fact that we are White, somehow less human is Wrong.
Do ya’ll honestly not see that??
I understand that it’s difficult to admit you’re wrong about something like this, especially when the whole White world seems to just continue shoveling sh!t down on Black people, Latinos, and other groups — but just because you’re constantly defending yourself from false criticism it doesn’t prevent you from committing those same mistakes yourself.
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“We are often racist, and we often do completely terrible things to other racial/ethnic/religious/sexual groups based on prejudice and bigotry.”
but…
“blaming our failures on some ambiguous psychological disorder you can neither prove, nor morally justify, is Wrong.”
I mean, what i’m picking up is that racism is a culturally transmitted delusion, though it’s not technically a delusion in the clinical sense.
From Wikipedia:
“A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.”
So technically I wouldn’t call racism a pathology, though in practice it amounts to the same thing. because racism is based on false information, stupidity, and illusion etc. But i’m no doctor.
Anyway everyone has been quite clear that racism is a learned behavior. I think now that that has been established the WP in this thread can chill out. Nobody’s trying to trick us into gassing ourselves here.
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Fascinating post as usual Abagond, I am really enjoying sitting here and reading through the comments. I am also glad you had the smarts to see right through Diplomacy the (clearly) British, pretending to be oh so colour-blind ‘non racist’ cracker (yes I said it!)
Do not be deceived people, I live in the UK and it is more racist then America. The thing is, they are totally blind to their own everyday insiduous and damaging racism. At least in America people can discuss it and by doing so perhaps make progress. Here it is blatantly denied, you are accused of ‘playing the race card’ or being too PC. We are talking ‘heads buried in the sand’ behaviour yet black and other minority children are ROUTINELY AND COMMONLY racially abused and bullied from when the start school- any school too. Be it a posh one or the local comprehensive in a deprived area.
The recent riots were fueled to some extent by the marginalized discriminated against minorities who have been steadily fed a diet of ‘you’ll never amount to anything’ or ‘pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ even though we are surrounded by institutionalized racism which as you well know- has a negative impact on minorities progress. So please do not be fooled by any ideas that Europe is a racism-free Utopia. At least not the UK as that would be the joke of the century.
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Didi, I noticed that quite some people talk about racism when people are discriminated for their nationality, religion, accent, hair style, clothing or name. In my view they are muddying the issue.
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So please do not be fooled by any ideas that Europe is a racism-free Utopia. At least not the UK as that would be the joke of the century.
Who do you think taught the Yanks their ways? The Brits! They are still a colony of Britain whether they think so or not. You just have to read British tabloids, watch some of the tv shows to see how just how racist they can be. Just after the riots, one of their so-called pundits got on a tv show and blamed ‘black culture’ for the riots. There was a black women defending against his assertations, but she was too polite as far as I’m concerned. The man’s name was David Starkey, a historian(a Tudor era speacialist). Why they would have asked him to make comment was beyond me. They couldn’t even be bothered to get an ‘expert in race relations’. This guy would have been better:
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@Zek
“But I am *trying* to remind the crowd that White people ARE STILL people, and blaming our failures on some ambiguous psychological disorder you can neither prove, nor morally justify, is Wrong.”
One – I don’t recall anyone on this thread saying that whites are less than human, or that they aren’t people.
Two – White pathologies may be ambiguous to you, but they are not unclear to PoC. Black people have always seen it. For our survival we’ve had to bob, weave, duck and dodge systemic/institutional racism and other nasty forms of hatred.as well as white psychosis. We really know, probably better than most whites, what we’re talking about here. The problem has always been most whites don’t want to hear it or believe it, especially if it’s a PoC telling this truth!
Three – White collective disorders have been shown (PROVEN) repeatedly via scientific studies, research and experiments. You can find them via Google. For an individual who seems to put a lot of stock in being “right,” I’m utterly surprised at how many things you got WRONG in your above statement.
Four – Please look at some of those links that help people understand what RACISM is about which Abagond placed a little ways up-thread. It might further your understanding..
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@teddy:
“What is justice to you Sam? Is Roe vs. Wade justice to you?
I do believe that lynchings will be as much justice as a court sentenced hanging, if the state is a failed one, the court system is corrupt, the law unjust or the judge partial.”
Justice is justice. It is not revenge. I think americans confuse these two pretty much because they live in the culture of fear and hate. Not to mention the culture of violence.
I understand revenge on a personal level, but a state can not operate on those basis nor can justuce system. If the system is corrupt, it is up to the people to do something about the system, not start lynchings. If the judge is partial, get him/her removed. Don’t start lynching people up and down the street. If the laws are unjust, change them. They have been changed and are changed all the time. Get active poltically. Do not lynch the next n****r down the street because your own frustrations.
As for a failed state, I wonder why americans would see this as an excuse for lynching. They do not think so in Italy, where the state has failed in many parts of the South, thus breeding Calabrian N’dragheta, napolitan Camorra and sicilian Mafia, of the puglian Sacra Corona Unita. Hundreds of murders per year, drug business, illegal cartels in legal business etc. but you do not see those people running up down the streets demanding lynchings. Why not?
Besides, is USA a failed state?
Also, on the moral side of the whole idea: if you support killing of a man as an solution to a problem, you have no moral way or reason to condemn some one who thinks so in his own life. If a criminal kills someone in order to solve a problem, he does the same as you. You and the killer are the same, morally.
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@herneith: Yeah, I was wondering how stupid the british racists were when they talked about the rioters being black and/or immigrants or foreigners when at the same time they showed footage from the riots, live, in which you could see white english kids and men among the rioters. But I guess that shows you how stupid these people really are, the prime minister included.
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Herneith,
That interview was just, wow. Her INABILITY to listen to that man! And I have no doubt whatsoever that the race of each of them causes that. Ugh!
Zek,
In addition to co-signing all that Matari said to you, I would add (or maybe just underline) that if you think it’s racist of someone to look at you, see a white person, and then assume that you’re very likely to harbor a variety of certain proclivities and presumptions, many of them unconsciously, then you’re stuck at a Racism 101 level. And then for you to toss out condescending false equivalences, as if POC assuming they’re very likely to see something in you that they’ve seen in so many other white people–well, it’s really very white of you! And so is the common white refusal to see oneself AS white, to see, to even BEGIN to see, that being raised and socialized as white is very likely to instill various delusions within you.
Yes, do read some of those links, please. Do society a favor that way, by becoming a more self-aware, and thus better-acting, person.
Try this one, for instance, and think openly and honestly about whether any items in the list there, especially, apply to you–
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/04/teach-their-children-to-act-white.html
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Matari,
Thanks, but I’ve already had racism 101, and done my fair share of reading. You can check my blog to see what I’ve written regarding the topic.
Anyhoo, now that we’ve moved beyond your checking my credentials, let’s deal with what I’m actually saying.
One – I don’t recall anyone on this thread saying that whites are less than human, or that they aren’t people.
Actually, Abagond was making that assertion which I had shown above. Were you following our entire conversation? Also, you’ve said more or less yourself right here:
It is my contention that this “sickness” that “whiteness” is goes well beyond psycho-pathological. It’s also a spiritually DEMONIC issue. Yes, I’m stating that “whiteness” is demonic. It’s a spiritual malady that affects everything and everyone on this planet. God forbid that this “Borg” like assimilation/conquering/dominion/violence crazed presence should ever escape this planet and infect the universe with its madness
Tell me. Am I spiritually demonic? Do I possess horns? Is my skin-color really a spiritual malady to you? Are you REALLY comparing White people to the effing Borg attempting to “infect the universe with its madness”?
Yeah… go ahead and get back to me when your foot is no longer inserted into your mouth.
Two – White pathologies may be ambiguous to you…
Sorry, but I actually know them quite well. I hear them everyday when I pass for WASP and then people find out I’m Jewish. I’ve dealt with my fair share of anti-Semitism, from dodging neo-Nazis to standing up against harmful stereotypes and slurs, even as I’ve had to deal with my own racism in my serious relationship with my girlfriend. (Yes, she is Black.)
So, no, White pathologies are not ambiguous to me. But I wonder, are the meanings of your comments ambiguous to you? Do you really think White people suffer from a form of psychosis? And may I ask if it bothers you that you’re saying the exact same prejudiced things many White people have said, and in some cases still say, about you?
White collective disorders have been shown (PROVEN) repeatedly via scientific studies, research and experiments
Haha, okay now I know you’re joking with me. Please, show me such a study. I’ve spent quite a bit of time learning about anthropology (both cultural and biological) at my university, and I’d be FASCINATED for you to start providing examples of scientific racism to rival HBD. I especially would like to see you do so in light of the fact that there are also tons of pseudoscientific studies promoting the inferiority of People of Color.
Y’know what Matari? I’m not going to bother much with you. I know you don’t represent what people think in the real world, certainly not the Black people I am friends with or know. Just like I know the racist White trolls on this blog do not represent the White people I am friends with or know. Extremes are easy to see, and even easier to apply to an entire group, but they are rarely, if ever, representative.
Cheers
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Oh Matari, how dare you not be the right kind of black person!
LOL!
Zek, you’re inability to even see, let alone appreciate, how generous Matari actually was with you above speaks volumes about just how white you are. Wow. And for YOU to write HIM off, wowowowowow. Sad, sad, sad.
Here’s hoping SOMEONE can jolt you into seeing how commonly white some of your behavior is.
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@ Matari
This is exactly why I don’t use the term “Whiteness” as a descriptor of the White favoring system.
Zeke’s understanding that “Whiteness” means the quality of BEING White is the most natural reading of that term. The misunderstanding is, at least partially, because your language is too imprecise.
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Aspergum,
I wouldn’t co-sign with Matari if I were you… Unless you agree that White people are basically The Borg??
I would add (or maybe just underline) that if you think it’s racist of someone to look at you, see a white person, and then assume that you’re very likely to harbor a variety of certain proclivities and presumptions, many of them unconsciously, then you’re stuck at a Racism 101 level.
Actually, I don’t disagree with that. I don’t care much to label people’s emotions or feelings or first impressions.
Why? Because those things are very often wrong.
They’re wrong because they allow the state to execute Troy Davis even though he was innocent. They’re wrong because they allow us to easily discriminate against total strangers. Just like you’re doing right now.
Maybe you should answer the question I posed to you: do you think there is something wrong with me based solely on the fact that I am White?
Don’t worry, I’ll wait…
Meanwhile, consider: if I am calling myself White, then how do I not see myself “as White”, like you claim? And please point out to me where I say that anything was racist? Notice I don’t. I have merely been pointing that much of the reasoning going on here is exactly like the reasoning being used by White racists.
To be true that’s a weak excuse, but valid nonetheless for it asks an unspoken question: do you see your own arguments as racist? And if not, then why do you say that those exact same arguments made by White people are racist?
More importantly, how is it a false equivalency to point this out? I’m not talking about power or privilege, but solely the things you are actually saying.
Meanwhile maybe you could stop and become more self-aware? Because for someone who tells others to do so, you are remarkably dense about your own comments.
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King,
If Matari is refering to Whiteness in the sociological sense, instead of Whiteness = White people, then I’d agree her comment is less offensive and bigoted.
And in which case the misunderstanding would also be partially mine.
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Zek, to my understanding, Martari is using the term “Whiteness” essentially to describe a system of White oppression, supported by a specific way of thinking—a philosophy, and a movement, that began by defining an idea of “White” people, and “others” (non-White people.) I think that is the basic definition, although I’m sure one could write several paragraphs.
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King,
While I would normally be inclined to agree, since that is the definition I attach to the word, I don’t think this is the case for Matari’s comments when I consider the rest of their context.
Matari doesn’t seem to distinguish between Whiteness as a system and White people as a group of human beings. Indeed he/she conflates the two until White people = evil. At least, that is my reading from his/her comments.
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@ Zek
If you’ll notice, he often puts the word “white” in quotation marks. Here is the definitive quote from Martari upthread.
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Actually i’d like to see the studies too.
Also, as to the issue of precise language, I’m getting the feeling that maybe some people don’t want to be bothered with wording things carefully just to clarify things for white people. Cause it would be like, doing us a favor or something. I guess I can understand that but I think we can see how a lack of clarity can bog things down.
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Zek and jason,
Please read these brief items, carefully–
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#educate
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#educate2
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#innocent
And one especially for Zek–
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#backup
If you can’t see yourselves performing in this thread in those ways, well . . . I don’t wanna say there’s no hope for you, but, it would be pretty tough to say there’s any hope for you.
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Hey Zek,
🙂
“Y’know what Matari? I’m not going to bother much with you.”
LOL – After writing just 510 words??? Whew!!
Thank you!
This suits me just fine Zek coz I’m not going to bother much either – with the deliberately obtuse.
Cherio I say!!
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King,
Hmm… fair enough. Perhaps I was too hasty? Yet I still cannot completely abandon my argument when I consider the claims of “studies” and “scientific fact” that Matari speaks about that definitively *prove* collective White disorder(s). Again, I feel that my interpretation of his/her comments, taken in context and at large more likely indicate that Matari equates White people with Evil, as opposed to White racism, Whiteness and other factors.
Which is sad, because: 1) it’s hilariously dramatic 2) he/she should know better, and 3) it only perpetuates our racist American society.
But I digress. Aspergum seems equally obstinate in proving me wrong instead of considering what I’ve said.
So I appreciate your comments (oh, and Jason’s too — and Abagond’s). It’s hard to have a real conversation sometimes.
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That is the unfortunate nature of talking about race, I suppose. But I’m sure it must at least provide some prime entertainment for some to see the White anti-racists and the Black anti-racists arguing against one another! Like the perfect ending to a skinhead musical!
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Oh zek zek zek,
I’m not trying to “prove you wrong,” and I certainly did “consider what you’ve said.”
Did you even read the links I just provided for you? If so, do you indeed see yourself performing above those common privileged modes of derailment?
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As for “Matari equates White people with Evil, as opposed to White racism, Whiteness and other factors,” methinks you’ve constructed what you surely know is called a “Straw Man” there . . . more derailment . . .
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@King
“Zeke’s understanding that “Whiteness” means the quality of BEING White is the most natural reading of that term **[for Zek and likely you as well as we’ve previously discussed]**. The misunderstanding is, at least partially, because your language is too imprecise.”
White people (generally speaking) are not that stupid. Delusional? Yes. Dumb? No. Though some folks are especially good at seeing things that aren’t there, and good at not seeing the things that are right in front of them.
IMO, my language is precise enough. The problem with the English lexicon/language is that it’s set up to deliberately to obfuscate and benefit WHITE SUPREMACY.
As others have said or implied to easily offended white folks, if something that some white people do doesn’t apply (to you), let it fly!
I refuse to coddle every white person who shows up without a clue and expects me to acquiesce to their demands. “Those days” are behind us. (Zek – are you listening?) It’s not my job.
{Now where did I put that floor wax I borrowed from Herneith?}
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@king: “But I’m sure it must at least provide some prime entertainment for some to see the White anti-racists and the Black anti-racists arguing against one another! Like the perfect ending to a skinhead musical!”
😀
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@ Zek:
When I look at pictures of the Holocaust – the ovens, the bodies, the skin-and-bones Jews – it is very hard for me not to think that Hitler was sick in the head. That this was not merely the natural outcome of human nature and oven technology.
Do I think that Hitler was non-human? Of course not. Do I think there was something wrong with him? Yes.
Do I have any studies to prove it? No. Am I a psychologist? No.
But I am telling you that that is what it SEEMS like to me for all the world.
I am saying very much the same thing about White Americans. Based on their actions they too seem sick in the head.
Once again, I do not have studies, I am not a psychologist, but that it is what it SEEMS like to me for all the world. Maybe it is not a psychological disorder in the strict sense, but something is wrong with them.
It could be that only 10% of them have serious issues while the other 90%, due to racist brainwashing, do not stop them – but it is hard to imagine that they are truly that clueless.
You say that white people are not evil (that is your word, by the way, not mine) and yet admit they have done all these evil things and CONTINUE to do so. You are not connecting the dots. And when others on this thread try to do so, you paint them as racists.
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@ Zek:
You are acting very much like a white racist commenter, which is not like you:
1. “It is racist to call white people racist” – or say anything bad about them, putting them beyond criticism.
2. Imagining the word “all” before “white people”.
3. Reading skills are way worse than writing skills – “deliberate obtuseness”, as Matari puts it.
4. Stereotyping my position despite my careful wording.
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The Old Testament DOES see genocide and slavery as moral and normal. Many religious folk argue that without religion, there isn’t morality either.
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@ Abagond
“… there is over thirty years of social science evidence to which we can turn in order to evaluate this matter.
For instance, one famous study showed white focus group members a video in which a black actor and a white actor engaged in an argument. On the tape shown to one group of whites, the black actor shoves the white actor out of the way at one point. On the tape shown to a second group, it is the white actor who does the shoving. In all other respects the tapes were the same (and the whites viewing the different films had been randomly selected so they too, functionally speaking, were no different). Afterward, the white respondents were asked a series of questions about what they had seen. Among them, was a question that asked whether they perceived the shove administered at the end of the argument as aggressive or violent. Three out of four whites who had seen the black actor do the shoving, answered yes. But only 17% of the whites who had seen the white actor administer the exact same kind of shove felt the act had been aggressive or violent (3).
Although this study was administered in the 1970s, there is little reason to believe that time alone would change the way white Americans, at a subconscious level, perceive aggression in blacks, as opposed to other whites. More importantly, additional studies since that time have found similar results: one found that even as children, whites view blacks as more aggressive than other whites engaged in the very same behavior (4).
More recently, “shoot or hold fire” studies have determined that when shown videos of blacks and whites engaged in various ambiguous activities, participants are quicker to shoot unarmed blacks, and to hold fire on whites, even when the latter are armed and dangerous (5). These tendencies, it should be noted, bear no relationship to the degree of overt racial bias expressed by participants in pre-interviews. Rather, they seem tied to implicit, even subconscious biases, which research shows can be easily triggered in situations where common stereotypes of racial groups are made salient.
Even more disturbing, studies have found that whites often fabricate memories of events in ways that fit common racial stereotypes. For instance, in one study, participants were given details of an assault case, as if they were in the role of jurors. Asked to remember the case details later, participants overwhelmingly misremembered aggressive conduct by blacks in the stories, even when such conduct did not occur, and they were far less likely to remember aggressive conduct by whites, even when, in the narratives given to them, it did occur (6).
In another case, participants were shown news stories involving crime, in which the color of the shown perpetrator was digitally manipulated. By large margins, respondents were more likely to remember the race of the perp when the perp shown was black, and often even misremembered the perp as black, when he was not (7). An additional study found that when shown perp mug shots of blacks, as opposed to whites, respondents were far more likely to presume guilt in the former case as opposed to the latter, even when the available facts in evidence were the same (8).
Other research, in which participants are hooked up to MRI machines, has found that even when shown a black face on a screen subliminally (i.e., for such a small fraction of time that the conscious mind is unable to process it, though the subconscious mind can), the part of the brain known as the amygdala (which is the part that processes fear responses and anxiety), lights up far more than when shown a subliminal image of a white face (9).
Here it is worth quoting Linda Hamilton Krieger and Susan Fiske, from their 2006 California Law Review article on implicit bias:
Krieger and Fiske explain:
“As social psychologists John Bargh and James Uleman, among others, have demonstrated, merely encountering a member of a stereotyped group primes the trait constructs associated with, and in a sense, constituting the stereotype. Once activated, these constructs can function as implicit expectancies, spontaneously shaping the perceiver’s perception, characterization, memory and judgment of the stereotyped target” (10)”
http://www.timwise.org/2009/07/denial-is-a-river-wider-than-the-charles-racism-and-implicit-bias-in-cambridge/
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@ Matari:
Wow. Thanks.
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Although his comment is addressed to Abagond, once again, Matari has been generous with the lazy and undeserving Zek, and with jason, by doing the footwork of seeking out and supplying their requested studies of common white pathology.
I wonder if Zek and jason will deign to express any gratitude this time. . .
On another note, maybe they’d feel better if the idea is allowed that non-whites in the U.S. are also commonly disordered and delusional, thanks to white supremacy. It has a common name, actually–“internalized racism.” Maybe then it won’t seem so much like it’s just poor ol white folks that are being picked on and singled out, by being labeled delusional? (OTOH, this does feel a little like I’m coddling them.)
http://racerelations.about.com/od/understandingrac1/a/internalizedracism.htm
Hopefully, that disorder, internalized racism, is not as common among non-whites as common white pathologies, which basically amount to the opposite of internalized racism, are among whites.
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@ aspergum
I’ve read all those links before and I read them again. I think derailing for dummies is a good recourse but if you read it carefully you will see that it goes both ways, if you expect WP to abide by those rules than you have to make sure they apply to your comments as well. For example….
“Rather than simply listening to criticism of a group of Privileged People with respect and consideration for the Marginalised Person, you must immediately take offence and leap in to defend yourself.”
I can see why you see it that way, and I grant you that Zek and I have both been oversensitive at times.
Back to DFD….
“For example, when queer people are crticising the tendencies of some straight people, jump in and say something like:
“Not all of us are like that – you’re prejudiced against straight people! You’re judging straight people the same way that they judge you, and it’s hateful! We need to not categorise people and make assumptions about them based on their identity! I resent feeling like I’m part of a group that oppresses you!”
– even though the criticism was very explicitly leveled at a specified behavior. (ie.:, “I don’t like straight people who do ________.”) ”
This is the part where you need to hold up your end if you’re going to reference derailing for dummies. You guys were not explicitly leveling criticism at behavior or the tendencies of white people. Matari especially has gone way beyond that in some of his comments and that’s why you’re seeing this response from white people who otherwise have no issue with criticisms of white behavior. Notice how this particular quote from DFD requires that the original criticism of whites be leveled at specified behavior.
I think DFD is a good starting point but I don’t know if it necessarily applies here. I don’t think there’s anything in there that says “WP must put up with any and all criticism of the white race without a word of protest, up to including being called crazy demons.
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@ Zek:
If there is nothing all that wrong with white people then answer me this question:
What in the world have black people done to whites in America where the level of demonization, dehumanization, ridicule, lynchings, ghettoization, physical and verbal abuse, etc that blacks have suffered at the hands whites year after year would be a RATIONAL, SANE, MENTALLY BALANCED reaction on the part of whites?
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@ Aspergum
“(OTOH, this does feel a little like I’m coddling them.)”
LOL : ))
We all need a little help sometimes. Justice requires giving help to those who need the most help. So I’m glad YOU’RE here – helping and coddling those in need.
@ Abagond
Welcome!
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if you read it carefully you will see that it goes both ways, if you expect WP to abide by those rules than you have to make sure they apply to your comments as well.
Where did I say that I’m either non-white or white? (Answer: Nowhere.) What made you assume I’m the former instead of the latter?
I can see why you see it that way, and I grant you that Zek and I have both been oversensitive at times.
Yes. And insensitive too. And obstinate.
Might your being classified as “white” have something to do with that? Maybe? Hmm?
You know what else pretty clearly has something to do with you being white?
It’s the way you’re nitpicking something that was pointed out to you about your behavior, searching for some part of it that you can disagree with, so that you can avoid acknowledging to an appropriate degree the main, overall point.
And that leads to yet another way that you’re acting in a common white way–doing everything you can to squirm out of acknowledging that you’ve acted in a common white way.
Why is it so damn difficult for white people to deal upfront with the fact that being classified as white is one (among many) guiding, largely unconscious determinant in their thoughts, feelings, AND behavior?
Actually, here’s a start toward an answer–because they’ve been socialized into the delusional assumption that they think and act instead as free-willed, relatively objective individuals.
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It’s actually not that complicated. If you say: “members of x group are crazy and demonic”
There’s a really good chance members of x group are going to disagree with you. the fact that you could seriously expect otherwise speaks volumes about your personal sanity level.
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jason,
Another nice dodge!
Well, no, not so nice. Pretty clumsy, actually.
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What am I supposedly dodging again?
let’s review, I believe we live in a society that favors whites, I agree that most WP are racist and institutional racism also programs POC to believe they are inferior/internalized racism. I’ve even stated that most WP are delusional. What’s left exactly for me to dodge?
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You forgot to add, “I’ve acted in this thread in several ways that make it pretty easy for others to gather that I’m white. Here’s how: _______. I’ve very likely done so because being socialized as white has instilled various proclivities in me.”
It shouldn’t be hard for you to fill in that blank. The details have already been provided by others for you above.
Have some humility. Please. Unstiffen that neck.
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Here’s how: I took offense to whites being labeled as demonic/mentally ill. I’ve very likely done so because being socialized as white has instilled various proclivities in me, namely, an aversion to being identified with sub human creatures from hell and/or the mentally ill. Apparently this proclivity goes hand in hand with being white, and i’m oh so ashamed boo hoo
hows that 😉
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I wouldn’t want to ask anyone to coddle white people by not calling us crazy demons. I mean really, POC have been forced to not call WP crazy demons for the last 400 years! enough is enough!
better?
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@columnist: “The Old Testament DOES see genocide and slavery as moral and normal. Many religious folk argue that without religion, there isn’t morality either.”
Well, so did Mein kampf and host of other works of litterature, but does that make it ok? Not so, I think.
Nazis thoughed that they were superior 1) racially and 2) morally. Pretty similar like some religious zelots, no matter what religion. Does it make it ok? No it does not.
@all: I think zek and jason take this too personal. I’m a white guy and I don’t take it personal. I try to figure out why abagond thinks there is “something wrong” with the whites and I can understand his thinking, where it comes from. I may not agree with the idea that ALL white men are insane somehow, but I can surely understand that from his perspective one might get the idea. It surely seems like that sometimes, particulary in USA where some really weird things happen around the people of different color or culture.
I do not agree on everything matari says, but I try to understand and get what he is saying and why. I know who I am and what I am and how I live my life, so when he writes about the insanity of the american racist system, or racism which exists among the whites, I know he is trying to make sense of it all. He is not attacking me as a person, as an individual. He is telling me what he thinks about it all.
Let me put this way: once, in a very dingy bar in an african slum, I was sitting among some very nasty guys many of whom were carrying weapons of some sorts and many of whom were either drunk or stoned, and all of these guys belonged to those whom everybody told me hate white guys and murder them and rob them and chop them and what ever. One of them told straight at my face that he doesn’t like white men at all. He was not threatning me, he did not attack me, he did not rob me, murder me, he was just stating his mind. He then told me why. Was I offended? No. Did I get mad? No. Did I call him racist? No. It was his opinion based on his experiences. He was not hostile towards me as a person. As an individual. Actually, he was one of those who provided escort for me to get out alive from that place.
At this age I would not take that kind of chance anymore, but when you are young and dumb you sometimes do. And as a result I learned that even the most dangerous (according to some) guys are humanbeings who have their opinion and I don’t have to take it personally, even when it is directed to my “race”. I understud what he meant. He meant the white system, the whole ten yards of it, and the whites who benefit from it and up hold it. He did not mean a dumb young finn sitting at their table. Why? Cos he could see that I was not one of those whites, that I had as little money as he and most of all I was even more stupid than they were.
Check out dozens of films and documentaries and photographs of the Black Panthers. Yeah, you see they are actually meeting some whites, talking to them, exchainging ideas, arguing politics, writing stuff together, thinking things together, at the very same time when the FBI, media and every “know-it-all” reporter was foaming how racist they were and how they are just a black version of the KKK. Well, I have not seen any document showing black dudes sitting with the most militant leaders of the KKK and talking about politics and agreeing on things. I think that says a lot.
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@ jason
Good lord. After all the time you’ve spent on anti-racism blogs, SO much time, that’s what you come up with?
What the hell is wrong with you? Why are you even here?????
And white people who also spend time trying to contribute effectively in anti-racism spaces wonder why POC so often find them disappointing. So often mistrust them until they’re really, truly proven that they’re different. So often expect so little of them.
Damn. What a shame. (And no, not the kind of shame you’re talking about, you and your precious fee-fees.)
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“Why are you even here?”
because you aren’t as representative as you think you are. You’re an extremest whack-job who’s only interest is white self-hate indoctrination. Why are YOU here.
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http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#backup
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Saw that one coming a mile away.
making reference to the observation that most POC don’t see WP as demonic and mentally ill isn’t the same as saying “well, my black friend disagrees”
whatever, maybe i’m wrong. maybe POC do think we’re all crazy demons in which case I now know who not to trust. Thanks for the tip guess I should arm myself.
“Why are you here” good question. I’ll get out of the way.
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i’ll leave you with this maybe it will help you in the future
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Abagond,
Now who’s painting whom as a racist? Not everyone who disagrees with you on this blog is actually a racist troll intent on derailing. Some of us actually (like Jason too) don’t think White people are sub-human, demonic, or suffering some sort of psychological disorder.
That I have to explain this to YOU, of all people, is the really strange thing.
You are not connecting the dots. And when others on this thread try to do so, you paint them as racists.
I have absolutely no problem talking about White racism, or Whiteness, or the myriad ways in which White people are privileged in this country and worldwide.
But the difference between talking about racism and these “dots” you reference is like the difference between Louis Farrakhan and Bayard Rustin. You’re *prescribing* a reason as to why White people are racist as an internal thing — oh, they’re crazy in the head — as opposed to an external thing — they’ve been taught to be racist.
And it’s sad because HBDers and other racists DO THE EXACT SAME THING to People of Color all the time! On this very blog! I mean, are you really so blinded by the worst of your trolls that you can’t see a legitimate criticism when it’s holding you to your own standards??
Also, the fact that you are comparing ALL OF WHITE AMERICA to Hitler is really ridiculous. Godwin’s Law Abagond? Is Hitler really representative for White Americans? Do you really believe that? Do you really think that a single, probably sociopathic individual, represents my Kosher butt and everyone else with white skin in this country?
Y’know, maybe you need some time to get back to me on that? I’ll wait…
In the meantime, let me answer your question:
I don’t think Black people have done anything to White Americans on the scale, or time-frame that Whites have done to them. And I don’t think I ever said otherwise. If I did, please show me. I’ve never stopped admitting racism exists, and that it’s terrible, and that we need to stop it by addressing it — like we’re doing right now.
My comments are a far cry from derailing because this post is ABOUT the “hearts of White people” and here I am — *White person* — telling you: I am not sub-human, evil, suffering a psychological disorder, demonic, or whatever.
But instead of stepping back and thinking about that and then having a conversation, you’re far more content to hide behind volumes of “derailing tactics” links and “racism 101 intros” that I’d already read by high school, when I’m actually holding you to our own standards, per your own words and actions on your blog while talking about the subject at hand — and (in Matari’s case) scientific studies that don’t support all White people suffering from a demonic/spiritual malady. (His/her study only supports that White people are racist, which is what I’ve been saying this whole time. But Matari seems ignorant of that, considering how he/she wrote about the study.)
Honestly, though, this wasn’t that big a deal UNTIL you started trying to defend it. Just like when White people say something racist (or in my case, anti-Semitic) most people aren’t going to lose sleep over it because that’s the hellhole of America. We’d just appreciate it if you apologized and stopped doing it.
But instead you’re actively trying to defend something that you don’t actually believe (at least, I hope you don’t) and that is indefensible anyways (if your beliefs are to be consistent).
At this point, all I can do is shake my head…
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Zek,
You’re *prescribing* a reason as to why White people are racist as an internal thing — oh, they’re crazy in the head — as opposed to an external thing — they’ve been taught to be racist.
Where exactly did Abagond say that? Cuz I’m not seeing it.
You can talk about what “hearts” are like without saying those hearts are born that way. After all, to work a little more with the metaphor, some people have hearts choked with cholesterol because they eat a lot of fatty food. Same with most white people’s “hearts” in terms of white supremacy; their hearts are marinating in it, and it’s infected what most white people feel, think, and do.
@ jason
“Why are you even here?”
because you aren’t as representative as you think you are.
If you saw that as another weak white calling on other, more acceptable non-white friends, why did you even say it?
You’re an extremest whack-job who’s only interest is white self-hate indoctrination.
Trying to help a couple of white guys understand that their being raised and implicitly praised as white clearly has something to do with how they think, feel, and act makes me a whack-job? Look, you do have to “hate” yourself to admit that. You could instead be proud of yourself because you’re humble and mature enough to admit that about yourself.
That was a chance you’ve had here, and so far, you’re blowing it. You’re throwing it away, dude. A real chance at genuine, heightened self-awareness. “The unexamined life is not worth living.” Word.
Why are YOU here.
Because this blog rocks, both the posts and most of the commenters. It takes real concentration to keep oppression in focus, and to articulate how it works. This and other sites help with that, and so, they help in my daily life and struggles too.
whatever, maybe i’m wrong. maybe POC do think we’re all crazy demons in which case I now know who not to trust.
How nice for you and your white self that you can toss off important points in a discussion on racism with a breezy “whatever.” Nice thing to have, that privilege stuff, eh? You can walk away from this subject anytime you like and go on believing that you’re not affected by it. How nice for you, and that self of yours that you have such a hard time recognizing as white.
And as I just said to Zek, I’m just not seeing where Abagond is saying that white folks are demonic nutcases. And even if you do hear him saying that, why are you now expanding that to a claim that all POC believe it? Isn’t assuming that the actions (or actually, supposed actions) of one member of a racial group represent those of all members of the group a fundamental example of that little ol’ thing called . . . racism?
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@Zek,
I think you might want to read
about the Clark-doll-experiment ,as this is a really good example of how whiteness (not individual white people), can have a profoundly damaging psychological effect on a persons well-being and self-esteem, sort of like, hmm, a psychological disorder.
Isn’t is possible that the effect of whiteness on white people would be a lack of empathy for non-white people, and also, to me, a denial of the illness?
@abagond, thanks for this great post, and the comments, I needed to read this and visit the concept again. The first time I read of this idea of whiteness as a mental illness and lack of empathy, I also felt a pang, like Zek, and Jason, it took a while to settle and sort out in my mind, probably the denial thingie at work.
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Aspergum,
Abagond states that he thinks White people suffer from a psychological disorder in the post.
Did you read it?
Matari states that White people are demonic, suffering from a spiritual malady.
Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING in this post? Or are you genuinely ignorant of it?
Trying to help a couple of white guys understand that their being raised and implicitly praised as white
Aspergum, your noble intentions aside, we don’t need a “savior” anymore than Black people need White saviors. Besides, I’ve dealt with my own racism a loooong time ago, and I still do sometimes.
See I actually *understand* how being White gives me an advantage and privilege. I see it every time I walk into a store and people are nicer to me than they are to my girlfriend. I see it every time I read a magazine and see people more people who look like me than who look like my girlfriend and her friends. I see it every time I sit in synagogue and can count on one finger the number of Black people that are attending.
Your attempts to “educate” me are really self-serving, no matter how nice you think you are being you are actually being really condescending.
Instead, answer the questions I’ve posed to you in my comments, and maybe reread what I’ve written? That’d be a far, far better thing than trying to show off your own ineptitude.
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@ Zek:
I never said whites were demonic.
I never said they were sub-human.
I never said ALL White Americans anything.
I never said you were derailing.
ONCE AGAIN I said the psychological disorder stuff was a GUESS, that that is what it SEEMS like.
The Hitler thing was an analogy to help you to understand what I meant by that, You said you wanted to understand my position. But you took it as an opportunity to make it like I am saying ALL WHITE AMERICANS are like Hitler. Wow.
I pointed how you are acting like a white racist commenter not to paint you as a racist or because you disagreed with me – tons of people disagree with me – but because that is how you are acting, which coming from you is surprising.
You keep getting hit with Racism 101 stuff because you act like you never knew.
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Zek,
So you think you’ve got it all figured out now because you’ve got a non-white girlfriend and you can see that people treat you better when you shop because you’re white?
There’s much, much more to the racial training white people undergo, a training that renders them delusional, the bearers of a mental and emotional pathology.
Other than that, you’re acting just like jason, and a lot of other white people when someone points out that they’re acting in common white ways. You’re squirming away and deflecting, squirming away and deflecting. Which itself demonstrates the point of the OP–white people tend to have dark hearts. Hearts and minds darkened by white supremacy.
The white people I know who put a lot more effort than you clearly do into figuring that out about themselves realize that they’ll never fully figure out all of that about themselves. They can see, and catch, and fix some of it, but it’s always going to be there, and sometimes, it’s going to affect their actions. If you realize that about yourself, how about some examples of that then, instead of defensive ones about what a “good” white person you are?
And what the hell is this?
Aspergum,
Abagond states that he thinks White people suffer from a psychological disorder in the post.
Did you read it?
Matari states that White people are demonic, suffering from a spiritual malady.
Have you been paying attention to ANYTHING in this post? Or are you genuinely ignorant of it?
I asked you “Where exactly did Abagond say [White people are racist as an internal thing — oh, they’re crazy in the head — as opposed to an external thing — they’ve been taught to be racist.]? Cuz I’m not seeing it.”
Now you’re saying that Matari said it, instead of Abagond. And Abagond just said, yet again, he’s not saying white people are demonic, as if it’s something they’re born with.
And you’re asking ME if I’ve read anything here? You’re asking ME if I’m genuinely ignorant?
I think your efforts to deflect attention from yourself and your common white ways is making you see things that aren’t there. It’s making you a bad reader. It’s rendering you delusional, yet again.
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@ Zek:
HBDers say that blacks are born bad, that they will never be any good. Their fate is sealed by their bad genes.
I am saying NOTHING like that about white people. I said they are born with the same hearts as blacks but that somehow they get screwed up – above and beyond what can be accounted for by human nature (which I believe to be a mix of good and evil). And even beyond what can be accounted for by the corrupting effect of power.
My GUESS is that it comes from how they are brought up. If you want to say it comes from their racist culture, I can buy that. I do not, however, know whether racism is the cause or the effect.
The lack of empathy, the delusional thinking, the lies, the verbal and (sometimes) physical abuse, the dehumanization of others – all that puts it beyond the pale of ordinary, healthy human behaviour into something very much like a psychological disorder.
I know full well that White Americans are not cultural zombies. Their racism or disorder or whatever you want to call it, runs the full range. Some are barely affected, some are heavily affected.
When I say white people I do not mean every single one of them, I mean as a whole, in general. “The Chinese like pizza” does mean all 1.3 billion of them like pizza, but in general. Finding some Chinese guy who hates pizza does not disprove the statement, except maybe to an eight-year-old.
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Abagond,
I never said you said anything above except the derailing and the psychological disorder stuff. (And you did for the derailing because of your cosigning for the derailing links.)
And I understand that it was a guess, but it’s a pretty messed-up thing to say. Especially when you continuously defend it and reinforce it, and cosign similar comments like it from other commenters. Especially when such accusations against Black people or Asians, or Latinos, are instantly attacked.
The Hitler analogy was just stupid. Especially since I’m Jewish. You should know better. I took it at face value, and that’s what it read as. Maybe next time you should compare White Americans to that Jeffrey Dahmer?
But I digress. If my actions seem like your typical racist White commenter, then I’d say you are projecting that on to me. And I’d base that on your continuously lumping me in with commenters that you’ve seen me disagree with before. Shoot, you’ve even featured my posts disproving scientific racism on your own blog!
Meanwhile I’m asking questions, very serious questions, and most of them are going unanswered. Perhaps your own guilty feelings for realizing you’ve said something ignorant is the cause of that? I’m not sure, but this line of conversation would’ve been over in 2 seconds if, instead of saying, “Yeah, I guess White people suffer from a psychological disorder”, you said, “I don’t think White people suffer from a psychological disorder, let me explain and clarify my position.”
I do appreciate you taking the time to attempt to respond, but you can’t have it both ways Abagond. You can’t dismiss my comments and then simultaneously attempt to answer them. Just like Matari can’t say prejudiced things and then act like he/she is against racism. Inconsistency is part of the reason anti-racism today is so often ignored, and it pains me to see it happen with people who, for all their attempts to educate others about racism, are apparently acting as woefully ignorant of it as they claim I am.
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Aspergum,
Apparently you’re having trouble reading…
I said ABAGOND *guessed* White people suffer from a psychological disorder, while MATARI states that they’re demonic, etc etc.
Also, I never said I have it all figured out, certainly not because my girlfriend’s Black. I’ve said over and over that I still deal with my own racism even nowadays. (Apparently you do not though.)
Please, please please read for comprehension, because I’m tired of repeating myself from comments made upthread like 30 comments ago. You’re trying to jump late into the conversation and it’s not working.
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Zek,
You wrote “Abagond states that he thinks White people suffer from a psychological disorder in the post.”
And we’re supposed to think that says he “guessed”?
Anyway, cool that you still deal with your own racism. Too bad you’ve refused to acknowledge the instances of it that I pointed out above.
That’s your right, of course. And your privilege.
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Aspergum
He says that he guessed.
Are you for real?
Like for really real? Or are you a bot/talking head by some other commenter?
Because you’ve constantly showed how BAD you are at this stuff — and I’m not just talking about your inability to read — to the point that I actually need proof.
But you’re right: it is my right & privilege to have more freedom to defend White people from prejudiced statements than when I am attacking racism or anti-Semitism on my blog, in my life, and right here right now.
Thanks for noticing! Now get back to me when you’ve actually caught up in the conversation and answered the questions I asked you.
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If I answer yours, do you promise to answer mine?
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Zek said:
Which questions do you mean? Most of them seemed to be rhetorical.
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@abagond
Here are two questions I recall Zek asking you directly which you have consistently ignored and left unanswered:
Both questions need to be addressed in the same paragraph.I believe they need to be honestly addressed by you bearing in mind if you are going to answer YES to both then it is easy to understand Zek’s contention that it shows a real inconsistency in your explanations about racism.
Along with these two statements from you also:
.Just to be clear here if you are declaring your self as racist then it is inconsistent and hypocritical of you to label and criticise white people for also labelling or acting themselves in this way.
@ Matari,& aspergum, you both seem to be glossing over all of this or blindly giving it a pass…This inconsistent and vague line of reasoning from abagond is being carried over from post to post and I don’t see much evidence here of anyone challenging it. Or have I misread or ms-interpetated all of this?
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Abagond,
Do you believe White people are inherently racist or evil? Or do you believe these traits are learned and subsequently reinforced from being enculturated in a racist society?
You answered these ones, but I’ll repost them for continuity and for the benefit of the other commenters who may or may not have been following the conversation…
On the one hand, you don’t believe White people are born racist or evil, but then you say we suffer from a psychological disorder, saying we’re like psychopaths! I mean, I know you don’t accept these arguments regarding Black people, so why would you start proposing them as reasons for White racism?
This was when I started holding you to your own standards.
I do realize that your post is about White Americans, but you hardly, if ever, qualify that.
More importantly, how does that in any way negate my comments regarding your portrayal of White people as having a “psychological disorder”. Isn’t it a little hypocritical to promote that kind of argument while simultaneously dismissing that same argument when it’s used against other groups, especially Black people?
Then I took it further…
And isn’t it a little hypocritical to call White American racism “unnatural” when racism is quite common amongst Whites in general? And isn’t it even disingenuous to say that White American racism is somehow worse than other examples of racism, including those perpetuated by non-White people?
Because isn’t it merely an inverse of Arab Slave Trader argument to sensationalize one facet of bigotry to the detriment of other equally valid, equally horrible, and equally prolific forms of racism? Especially when said racism is being explained as the result of a psychological disorder you can neither prove, nor justify?
And then others chimed in…
Actually it’s sad that you as a complete and total stranger are so lacking in compassion or humanity that you’d freely assume there is something “wrong” with me based solely on my race.
Shall I post a definition of racism, or do we all remember what that word actually means?
…blaming our failures on some ambiguous psychological disorder you can neither prove, nor morally justify, is Wrong. Furthermore, by insinuating that we are, by the very fact that we are White, somehow less human is Wrong.
Do ya’ll honestly not see that??
The above was based on my interpretation from Abagond’s posts and comments whereby Whites/White Americans are less-human because they suffer from psychological disorders, are like wife-beaters (and apparently Hitler??), etc.
Then I responded to Matari…
Tell me. Am I spiritually demonic? Do I possess horns? Is my skin-color really a spiritual malady to you? Are you REALLY comparing White people to the effing Borg attempting to “infect the universe with its madness”?
Do you really think White people suffer from a form of psychosis? And may I ask if it bothers you that you’re saying the exact same prejudiced things many White people have said, and in some cases still say, about you?
Then I responded to Aspergum…
I wouldn’t co-sign with Matari if I were you… Unless you agree that White people are basically The Borg??
if I am calling myself White, then how do I not see myself “as White”, like you claim? And please point out to me where I say that anything [as in anything relating to your Aspergum’s arguments] was racist?
To be true that’s a weak excuse, but valid nonetheless for it asks an unspoken question: do you see your own arguments as racist? And if not, then why do you say that those exact same arguments made by White people are racist?
More importantly, how is it a false equivalency to point this out? I’m not talking about power or privilege, but solely the things you are actually saying.
And that’s about where my unanswered questions end, since you’ve mostly answered the ones regarding your very bad Hitler analogy (which, had I made to you, I would probably be laughed out of here, and certainly I would apologize for it).
But certainly my questions seemed rhetorical, and for that I apologize because they were asked in earnest.
And to Aspergum,
If you answer mine, completely and honestly, I will most definitely answer yours to the best of my ability (including time-wise).
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P.S. Thanks for your 2 cents Kwamla =)
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It doesn’t matter Zek, they’ll just say that trying to win an argument or be right is a “white” thing and you’re not being empathetic enough and bla bla bla.
They will only be happy when you start grovelling and flogging yourself. And even then it won’t be enough. to thses folks, being a good ally means you must relinquish all pride and human dignity.
that’s why they have no allies.
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jason,
“Theytheythey Themthemthem” (hmmmm)
And, as I’m sure you know, “white pride” is an ugly thing. . .
And, there’s a big difference between groveling and flogging yourself, and facing up and trying to understand how you’re acting like an ordinary white person.
Such a shame you refuse to try to be a truly helpful “ally.” You’d be so much better at it if you’d unstiffen your proud white neck and deal honestly with the several things I pointed out to you above.
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cant get through moderation.
Theytheythey Themthemthem
Doesn’t mean non-whites or whatever you’re trying to imply, You know it. Try harder.
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“And, as I’m sure you know, “white pride” is an ugly thing. . . ‘
hahahahah and there it is. You’ve conflated white pride with human pride in general. You basically just said WP shouldn’t be allowed to posses simple human dignity. I knew I was right about you.
This is why I can’t take this sh*t seriously anymore. I used to take people as sincere but I can’t anymore because of people like this. Trying to use DFD and the work of people who actually are sincere as a means to strip people of basic human dignity. disgusting.
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By “them” I mean extremists of any color just to clarify. aspergum is just as likely to be a white male as anything.
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Jason,
I’m sure they’ll try, and maybe they’ll convince themselves, but certainly not me, or you, or most others.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned being what Tim Wise calls “a White ally” in the anti-racist movement is to accept that you’ll get a lot of sh!t thrown at you when you participate because too often people will suspect your motives, or throw their prejudices at you, or your argument will get dismissed, etc etc.
And I’m fine with that. I accept it as part of the struggle, just like other activists do. But honestly, it’ll never be as bad as the hatred and violence I experienced growing up Jewish in Southern California. It’ll never be as bad as seeing my temple desecrated, or getting beat up at the beach for wearing a star of David necklace, or even the mean comments from my teachers when I refused to do Christmas-themed projects because I don’t celebrate that holiday (and so, they told me, I wasn’t American).
Because, honestly, this’ll probably be the only time and/or place in my life where I’ll actually experience any prejudice based on my race. Seriously. Most people just don’t discriminate against White people. Or, at least, not at the same level as they do against People of Color.
Which is what makes the comments in this post so… difficult to accept, because they’re so impossibly rare and so contradictory to anti-racism. But eh. Maybe a conversation is still possible, if they so choose. I’m always hopeful like that ; )
At least, that’s my opinion — and possibly my privilege.
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@ Kwamla:
If only non-racists can talk about racism then, in America at least, hardly anyone would be able to say anything about it – mostly just those who are blind to their own racism.
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Not to get all philosophical, but a lot of this has to do with what you believe about human nature. If you don’t think much of it, then racism, genocide, and atrocities seem to fit within the nature of man. If you think man is basically good, or even neutral, then you may believe that these things are abnormalities that beg an additional explanation.
But much of it depends on your starting point.
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@ Zek
No, you never said that. In fact I had to correct you several times on that point.
Yes, in past you were against the racists. And in the past you had no trouble understanding my posts. But not this time. This time you are acting like them. I pointed out specific ways you are doing that. And there is one more I forgot: The black best friend defence, when you brought you black girlfriend into this. I am saying that not to paint you as a racist, but for you to stop and consider why you are acting this way. Because it is not like you.
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Abagond,
Correct, you did clarify your statements and so I changed my description of them to match. But nonetheless you’ve still to answer many of my questions…
As for bringing my girlfriend into, of course I do! I bring my culture, my religion, my race, and everything into it because I’m being HONEST, and forthright. I’ve never stated I don’t have my own issues with racism. In fact, I’ve stressed this each and every time. I bring up my personal life as proof of my own struggles and my own background so you can stop dismissing my comments based on ad hominem.
But you keep deflecting everything I’ve said concerning YOU, and what you’re saying, and what Aspergum, and Matari have been saying. Instead of answering my questions, honestly, completely, instead of actually talking about the issue you’ve devolved into dismissing my comments even as you pretended to answer them, apparently.
Trust me, I’ve considered my actions, and my words, which is why I’m still bothering to continue attempting to discuss this. Maybe if you won’t listen to me you should listen to Kwamla, or Jason, and what they’ve said which also support my comments.
Is it that important to you not to admit to any of the things you’ve said or done in this conversation? Are you really that committed to ignoring your own offensive statements and how they ultimately hurt both you, and anti-racism?
Seriously Abagond, address my comments. Have a real conversation. Stop deflecting. Start being real. Otherwise you might as well just give up, because no one will listen to someone who hides like this.
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@ Zek:
First, I regard genocide as the worst, most extreme form of racism. I think it is a reasonable position. I do not think it is disingenuous. So to me Rwandans are worse racists than, say, white South Africans.
I never said White Americans were the worst racists, just among the worst.
Next, the psychological disorder thing is a GUESS, what it SEEMS like. A guess means I am not sure, I have no proof, I could be completely wrong. A best guess, but not something I would bet the bank on.
I tried to use the Hitler analogy to help you to understand what I meant. You said you wanted to understand. Instead you just throw the Hitler thing in my face now at every turn.
Black pathologies: there are most certainly black pathologies, like internalized racism, but they are not the ones white people talk about, which are just dressed up stereotypes. Also, their interest is not to understand black people but to demonize them.
I am trying to understand whites, not demonize them. I know you will probably not believe that. All I can do is to appeal to the rest of my blog to show that that is not what I am about, that I would rather know the truth than to feel good for five minutes through some cheap attack.
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“A guess means I am not sure, I have no proof, I could be completely wrong. A best guess, but not something I would bet the bank on”
hmmm and yet, we aren’t allowed to offer any arguments that oppose the idea that it is a psychological disorder without being promptly told how we sound like common white racist commentors and would we please read….well, whichever one of these shuts us up the fastest.
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
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Seriously, Jason, Zek (and Diplomacy?) are simply OFFENDED, mostly by what they think I wrote – as opposed to what I actually did write. And even if I did state what they claim I said, if they were to read and digest ALL of my comments in the “spirit” of my contentions as opposed to their perceived “letter” (of their offense) they would get my true heart towards them and folks at large. I don’t have the energy or the willingness to go tit for tat, back and forth over Zek’s obtuseness and divisive nit-picking.
You guys plainly don’t like the rule (written and agreed upon by LEARNED “white” anti-racists) that says in these types of discussions your primary action should be to “shut-up and listen …think, ponder, talk to your higher power, etc and NOT be offended… then maybe talk, or ask a question.” Your role here should be primarily that of of student. As oppressed and exploited victims of racism, PoC probably know a lot more about WHITES, WHITENESS and RACISM than you will ever know. WE LIVE IN IT. (Does that seem OFFENSIVE to you??) So stop being offended – and “know it alls.” LISTEN & “believe” PoC when we tell you things!
Your offense about hearing uncomplimentary things about WHITENESS is not in the least a racist attack against you – personally, or otherwise. (If you think it is, clearly you need to retake RACISM 101.) That is, unless you make it so – which is what you (Jason and Zek) both seem hell bent on doing. You guys have a lot of nerve, imo, demanding that people speak in a manner specified by you in order to be taken seriously. Your privilege (whiteness) is showing, and it isn’t attractive in the least. It’s kinda off putting, like some of Zek’s ridiculous questions, No offense Zek.. I’m just blunt, like you.
@ Sam
As far as I’m concerned – you seem to “get” it for the most part. Thanks for that.
@ Jason
Sometimes you seem to get it, but then you turn around and start grudgingly resisting. Yours isn’t an easy road to travel, but the journey is worth it. Stay on the road dude and work at it, at least for the sake of your little one(s).
@ Zek – you like to argue – about everything. I’m not impressed by your so-call credentials. Or your variant of, “I’m not a racist because my girl-friend, black friends…. But i would be genuinely impressed by your humility – if you ever decide to show some. Sometimes even when you win, YOU LOSE. And sometimes when you’re right – you are wrong.
@ Abagond – You are NOT a racist. I think we need to come up with some new words and/or definitions. “RACIST” has been rendered into an ambiguous word that has lost it’s ORIGINAL meaning, thanks to white supremacy. Anyway, thanks for this truly awesome/impressive blog!
@ Aspergum – it feels like we’re old friends and kindred spirits… Thank you!
@ Kwamla Hesse – I’d like to hear some of what YOUR opinions are regarding the title of this topic. That is if you would like to share them?
@ King – Thanks for YOUR “positive” challenges – and even-handedness!!
@ Herneith – LOL : )))
Peace
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Zek, you asked that I answer your questions.
Near as I can tell, these are your non-rhetorical q’s for me–
do you think there is something wrong with me based solely on the fact that I am White?
If you’re a white American, then I do assume that you’ve been socialized to be white, and that it’s damaged you, yes (and I specify American, because it’s where I live, and the whites I’ve studied live there too). Just as I assume being socialized as non-white, and thus instilled with internalized racism, damages non-white Americans. I do not assume that whites are born impaired, delusional, and so on–they’re raised into it.
Meanwhile, consider: if I am calling myself White, then how do I not see myself “as White”, like you claim?
You are seeing yourself as white, but you’re not seeing, or at least not acknowledging, various behaviors you’ve exhibited in this thread as common white behaviors, as behaviors very likely prompted by the socialization process.
do you see your own arguments as racist? And if not, then why do you say that those exact same arguments made by White people are racist?
I do not see my arguments as racist, because mine have been that white people are socialized by white supremacy, and that most of them exhibit behavior that recognizably manifests that socialization process. As I just said, I DO make that exact same argument about non-white people, and if whites do so too, I would not see that as racist. I would see it as a recognition of reality.
More importantly, how is it a false equivalency to point this out? I’m not talking about power or privilege, but solely the things you are actually saying.
How is it a false equivalency to point out the things I’m saying? What did I say that’s a false equivalency?
Meanwhile maybe you could stop and become more self-aware?
I don’t need to stop for that. I’m doing it all the time, trying to become more self-aware. It’s a never-ending process.
And please point out to me where I say that anything was racist? Notice I don’t. I have merely been pointing that much of the reasoning going on here is exactly like the reasoning being used by White racists.
I don’t have time to sort through the thread right now for this one–more later, though I will say, that’s a false equivalence right there. When non-white people do the same thing as something that white people do, it’s actually not the same thing, due to the context of white supremacy.
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@ Zek:
Sorry, but that is a tone argument. And you wonder why people are giving you Racism 101 links.
I have laid out my position FOUR times so far – once in the post and three times in the comments. For the first three you misunderstood what I said, put words in my mouth, etc. I am not trying to deflect anything. You are just not understanding.
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Abagond,
Actually, I do believe you are trying to understand Whites. If you weren’t you wouldn’t have written so many posts attempting to do so.
I just felt, and still feel that in the process of doing so you reveal the racism you hold inside of yourself. It mirrors the way in which so many White Americans reveal their racism when talking about Black people. (I’m thinking specifically of the Rick Perry incident with that camp named with the N-word.)
However you’re damn right that I’ll throw that Hitler metaphor in your face. It was TERRIBLE! I’d have laughed in your face if we were talking in person, if only to stop myself from exploding in anger.
I’m surprised you would say that Rwandans are worse racists than White South Africans, but if that’s how you believe then it would be consistent to say so. I would say neither is worse, because you cannot equate oppression, and many people have written how hard it is to live in a state like apartheid that they often wished for death.
As for whether White Americans are the “worst racists”… that wasn’t really my point, or what I was getting at. Rather I was asking if White American racism is worse than other forms of racism because of it being “unnatural” via military-style raids, etc. (By the by, White South Africans did that too, during and after Apartheid.) Because I don’t believe one form of racism is worse than another, though the differences certainly merit different responses.
For instance, White racism is WAY more important to deal with than Black racism, because Whites hold so much power in America. Black racism hardly, if ever, translates into structural oppression. But not so with White people.
Lastly, I’m curious why you would guess that White racism is caused by a psychological disorder amongst White people? Is the sad fact of being born into a racist society, where racism is often taught, socially reinforced, and White norms prevalent to the point of hegemonic not enough of a reason? Why say psychological disorder instead of an entire world of other reasons? And does it bother you to make a guess like that which is so similar to many of the reasons White people give to justify their own racism regarding Black people? Or do you feel that you cannot equate the two? And if so, why?
I could make an educated guess as to your answers, but I could be completely wrong. So I’ll let you tell me.
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Abagond,
Sorry, but that is a tone argument.
Well what else do I have to go on? You’d avoided a lot of my direct questions, and your normal habit is to be relatively silent in the comments, leaving me to make guesses, to ask questions, and to ultimately try engaging you in the conversation regarding what you actually think, and if you realize what some of those thoughts imply.
I have laid out my position FOUR times so far – once in the post and three times in the comments. For the first three you misunderstood what I said, put words in my mouth, etc. I am not trying to deflect anything. You are just not understanding.
You have laid out an extremely defensive, vague, and inconsistent position four times. With the exception of your penultimate comment, you’ve been deflecting my questions by getting upset and saying I’m acting like a White racist troll instead of acting consistent to with what you ask White people to do when they say something racially offensive.
Jason & I both have seen this double standard in effect, and we’re pissed because we actually really do care about these issues.
So trust me when I say I am *trying* to understand you. But you’re not making it easy for me.
That’s okay though. I don’t give up so easily.
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@ matari
I think you’re sincere even though I don’t agree with everything you say, no disrespect to you I think you clarified yourself pretty well as I said before, mostly my bone to pick is with your bff aspergum who I feel is both condescending and disingenuous.
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And Matari,
Thanks for that message, all of it, and I’ve appreciated your comments and presence here too.
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Disingenuous, jason?
How?
Condescending? I’m basically saying the same thing to you that Matari is–have some humility. Especially since you’re here, and you’re white.
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Disingenuous, jason?
How?
“and you’re white.”
didn’t you yell at me for assuming you weren’t white?
how’s that for a start?
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What? You’ve identified yourself as white.
I asked you (not yelled at you) why you assumed I’m not white (and far as I know, you didn’t even answer–so who’s “disingenuous”?)
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@ Matari:
Thanks.
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Zek and/or jason,
Since you simply ignore so much of what is directed at you, and instead stand with your fists up, jabbing away at this and that item of your own choosing, let me ask you more directly–please respond to this part of Matari’s comment, about you.
What do you think of it?
You guys plainly don’t like the rule (written and agreed upon by LEARNED “white” anti-racists) that says in these types of discussions your primary action should be to “shut-up and listen …think, ponder, talk to your higher power, etc and NOT be offended… then maybe talk, or ask a question.” Your role here should be primarily that of of student. As oppressed and exploited victims of racism, PoC probably know a lot more about WHITES, WHITENESS and RACISM than you will ever know. WE LIVE IN IT. (Does that seem OFFENSIVE to you??) So stop being offended – and “know it alls.” LISTEN & “believe” PoC when we tell you things!
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Aspergum,
You also co-signed with Matari’s comments, so many of those questions are also for you.
Do you think White people are like The Borg? Are we demonic? Do we you think White Americans suffer from a form of psychosis?
Your first answer is a little hard to decipher. Do you, or do you not believe something is wrong with me based SOLELY on the fact that I am White? It seems like you were saying yes, but then you changed the stipulations of the question so that it included things I wasn’t asking, such as whether we are raised to be so (which I say we are). So are you saying, yes or no?
In response to your second answer, I think you’ve just called my claiming a White identity into question… Does being White always imply possessing certain behaviors, in addition to skin-color? Because race is a construct, so essentially anyone with what you attribute to be “White behaviors” could be considered White, according to your definition. But obviously that’s a ridiculous conclusion. Can you clarify?
As for your third answer, I feel it’s incomplete. Or rather, you didn’t answer the question. You’ve changed your position from one of White people, by virtue of being White, to be suffering from psychological disorders, being demonic, and other things you cosigned with Matari, to White being people socialized to be racist. Again, I find this interesting because I’ve been saying White people are taught, raised, enculturated to be racist. Why have you changed your position? And do you see how assuming that White people, by virtue of being White (and not by being raised White, etc.), are damaged is a racist argument, just like arguments made that Black people, by virtue of being Black, are damaged?
And about your fourth answer (which gets tied to your sixth answer), you’re forgetting that I’m looking at your comments, and ONLY your comments. I fully acknowledge that you could discriminate against me all you want it would make little actually difference in the world, whereas if a White person were to do that to you their privilege, and White supremacy would likely have a big impact. However, your words, whether they can have as great an impact or not, can still be racist if they fit your definition of racist comments. Meaning, if you make the same argument a White racist makes (only switching the races), and you believe that what the White racist is saying is racist, and then you’ve also made a racist argument. Does that make sense?
Lastly, I think you do need to stop. Because you keep moving so fast you’re not paying attention to the things you’re saying, the people you’re agreeing with, nor the implications of your comments or what they truly mean. I think introspection is necessary if you’re to comprehend what I’ve said. Why? Because just like White people who are racist, because just like me, you’re as capable of rejecting anything which threatens your own comfortable beliefs. You need to rise above gut reactions, or instinct, and look before you leap.
Otherwise you fall prey to the selfsame failures of so many racists.
But I don’t believe you’re *truly* a racist. I believe you’re just confused, and stubborn, and refusing to give up because you’re so used to White people getting it wrong that when someone who happens to be White is calling you out on some offensive things you’ve said, your hackles go up and you dig in to be the Last Man Standing.
How do I know this? Because Kwamla just made my arguments for me, again, earlier, and your response was COMPLETELY different — to the point that you hardly made a peep!
But I digress. Ask me your questions, and I’ll give you my answers.
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P.S. I haven’t been ignoring anything, haha! I’ve been having to comment to tons of different people, so sorry that I’m often too busy to handle more than a few conversations at once.
You can include Matari’s comment as one of your questions, if you want, and I’ll answer it.
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You can include Matari’s comment as one of your questions, if you want, and I’ll answer it.
I just did, part of it–see above.
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“What? You’ve identified yourself as white.”
yes and you haven’t identified yourself as anything. you had a problem with me assuming you weren’t white, and yet im supposed to show you humility because im white. why? for all i know your white as well.
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Aspergum,
Is that your only question then? If not, give me a list so I don’t need to leave a bunch of comments. I’ll reply to them all at once.
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@matari, abagond, aspergum
doesn’t it ever bother you that the main strength of your arguments almost always lies in your racial identity? ” im black so i’m right/i know better than you cause you’re white.”
its a crutch.
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Jason,
Haha, good point! Funny too. But in the end it doesn’t help them. It only hurts them, and drives others away. Actually a lot of your comments have been on point… Maybe I should leave the field to you?
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@ jason
I did not rest my argument on that, though I do think it is true.
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haha. i noticed.
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Abagond,
Fair enough. I’ll concede Black people know more about racism than the average White person. But when you’re dealing with someone who’s also educated on the subject, when you’re talking with someone who’s read those links, and experienced many of those problems, what do you do then when they still disagree with you?
Would you really be satisfied if I jumped through all those hoops, and still said the same thing? Because I have.
Better yet, would you believe me if I were Black?
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maybe if matari tells me im white 15 more times. than his/her argument will be true.
by the way I agree that black people know more about experiencing racism and racism in general usually.
but when it comes to our hearts. all you can do is guess.
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Do you think White people are like The Borg? Are we demonic? Do we you think White Americans suffer from a form of psychosis?
How many times do I have to write here that I think whites are socialized into a delusional state, and that they’re not demonic because they’re not born that way, before it actually sticks in your head that that’s what I think?
Do white Americans suffer from a psychosis? I don’t know the technical differences between psychotic, deluded, delusional, and so on. But yes, I think that in general, they suffer from what amounts to a collective, induced delusion. And so do POC, and as I and others here have said, that’s commonly called internalized racism. And much of what WP suffer, or rather enjoy, in a twisted way, is the opposite of internalized racism.
Your first answer is a little hard to decipher. Do you, or do you not believe something is wrong with me based SOLELY on the fact that I am White? . . . So are you saying, yes or no?
I’m saying yes. Even committed, learned white anti-racists regularly admit that they have racist tendencies buried within themselves, and that those reemerge at times, and that they sometimes even come out in regrettable actions. Again, whites can’t avoid that, because in almost all cases (except something like literal closet cases), they can’t avoid the lifelong socialization process. They CAN control their instilled racism, most of the time. But it’s still there inside them. And so, “something” is wrong with even them, committed, learned, actively anti-racist whites.
Does being White always imply possessing certain behaviors, in addition to skin-color? Because race is a construct, so essentially anyone with what you attribute to be “White behaviors” could be considered White, according to your definition. But obviously that’s a ridiculous conclusion. Can you clarify?
OF COURSE people with non-white skin could exhibit common white behaviors; it often happens with non-white people raised by or among mostly whites, for instance. Also, when non-whites act against other non-whites, or themselves, on the basis of internalized racism, then they acting in ways that resemble common white behavoirs. That doesn’t mean they ARE white. That is ridiculous, and I don’t understand why you’re even asking about it.
You’ve changed your position from one of White people, by virtue of being White, to be suffering from psychological disorders, being demonic, and other things you cosigned with Matari. . . Why have you changed your position?
Where, exactly, did I agree that whites are “demonic”? To me that means inherently evil–born evil. I don’t believe that, and I never have. And I don’t believe I stated anywhere above that I do. (And keep in mind, I do think a psychological disorder can be induced–to say whites share one is not necessarily to say that they’re “evil.”)
And do you see how assuming that White people, by virtue of being White (and not by being raised White, etc.), are damaged is a racist argument, just like arguments made that Black people, by virtue of being Black, are damaged?
Sigh. I think I’ve already dealt with this, but to be as clear as possible for you, I do not think white people are intrinsically evil, and I’d like you to find a place where I actually said that, or directly agreed with someone who did say that.
But I don’t believe you’re *truly* a racist. I believe you’re just confused, and stubborn, and refusing to give up because you’re so used to White people getting it wrong that when someone who happens to be White is calling you out on some offensive things you’ve said, your hackles go up and you dig in to be the Last Man Standing.
And jason calls ME condescending?! LOL
Again, please find some offensive things I’ve said here, and explain to me how they offend you. (Because of course, what matters in this conversation about race is that the white folks not be offended!)
Look, do you get it now, that I don’t think whites are “evil,” and never said so?
If so, what else have I said that you find offensive?
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jas0nburns,
@matari, abagond, aspergum
doesn’t it ever bother you that the main strength of your arguments almost always lies in your racial identity? ” im black so i’m right/i know better than you cause you’re white.”
Where did I ever say that I’m black? (Answer: Nowhere.)
Why do you assume that I’m black?
And btw, are you f’king kidding me? Are you REALLY claiming that blacks do not, BY NECESSITY, understand racism better than whites do? Really?
And then for you to call that “almost always” “the main strength” of arguments against things you’ve said here?
Now tell me, jason, just who’s been condescending here?
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@ Zek:
I used to think it was a matter of brainwashing, but it goes beyond that. First, the people who you would think would wake up from it – like those married to blacks – do not wake up from it. Their arguments just become more subtle. Whites have a NEED, a NEED to look down on blacks.That speaks to their psychology not to their beliefs. Also, from what I have read about narcissists, wife beaters and rapists, the pattern of behaviour is pretty much the same.
Ideas are judged not by what they sound like but whether they are true.
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jason,
Now you seem to be contradicting yourself–
by the way I agree that black people know more about experiencing racism and racism in general usually.
And then you add, in contradiction to what non-white people have been trying to get you to understand–
but when it comes to our hearts. all you can do is guess.
No. Non-white people, on the basis of a lot of experience, can PREDICT. With a pretty good rate of accuracy, too.
They can be pleasantly surprised sometimes too. But not often enough to make the surprise element go away.
You’re arguing like a naive middle-schooler now–“We’re all just individuals! Stop seeing me in terms of color! My teacher told me not to see YOU in terms of color–that would RACIST! My being white has nothing whatsoever to do with who and what I am, so don’t you dare think it does.”
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Abagond,
I used to think it was a matter of brainwashing, but it goes beyond that. First, the people who you would think would wake up from it – like those married to blacks – do not wake up from it. Their arguments just become more subtle. Whites have a NEED, a NEED to look down on blacks.That speaks to their psychology not to their beliefs. Also, from what I have read about narcissists, wife beaters and rapists, the pattern of behaviour is pretty much the same.
Do you feel like maybe you also NEED to make Whites out to be like wife beaters, rapists, and narcissists? Maybe you need us to be psychologically damaged in order to understand, or to at least deal with the reality of White racism in some way that doesn’t do worse damage to your soul… That’s just a guess, but it feels like you can’t let go that White people (and by association, people in general) as people are just capable of everything you’ve blogged about.
Ideas are judged not by what they sound like but whether they are true.
Okay, now you really do sound like a White racist. And it doesn’t answer the question. I don’t think you believe that your comments are similar to a White racist’s, but yet they are nonetheless…
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jason,
You seem to have moved away from this, which you said above–have you?
I think I have to grudgingly go along with aspergum on this. It’s not fun to admit but WP myself included have been conditioned to think that we are better than black people and that’s just the way it is. the conditioning is quite subtle and seductive and growing up you’re really totally unaware that it’s happening but it is. it’s not even something we are necessarily conscious of, but it’s there. I’m afraid that all of that taken into consideration amounts to the “something wrong” or “screwed up” Aspergum and others were talking about.
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Zek!
Asking a (perceived) “other” if they agree with another “other” is WHACK!!!!
(Don’t ask me why – I’m not going too answer you,)
All that does is tell us that you’re NOT listening and THINKING. You’re deflecting, defending and licking your wounded ego .. you too Jason! Even Stevie Wonder could see this!
You are doing everything and anything (with these incessant questions and demands for explanations) but self-reflecting. The point/intent of this post was for you to take a tough and incredibly hard look at your SELVES, either as individuals (if it fits) and as a group and try to understand what is being said about the SYSTEM that we live it that elevates some as it “undervates” (yes, I made up a word) “others”
I know it’s hard, but c’mon fellas! LOOK at yourselves!
Aspergum and Abagond, you guys both have the patience of Job!
: /
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Aspergum,
Oy vey… you cosigned Matari’s comments, so that’d be when you made the assertion that White people are “demonic”, in addition to the psychosis comments. Maybe you should stop defending the indefensible, and simply apologize, admit you didn’t mean that, and move on? I do it all the time when I’ve been shown to have said something racist. It’s part of learning.
That doesn’t mean they ARE white. That is ridiculous, and I don’t understand why you’re even asking about it.
I’m asking this question because you’ve reduced White identity to racist behaviors. But there’s more to being White than being racist! And the reason why it’s ridiculous is because then anyone who’s racist would be White, in your world.
(Because of course, what matters in this conversation about race is that the white folks not be offended!)
I’ll easily get over being offended, because it happens. But that doesn’t mean I’ll give you a pass to say offensive things as if they’re true. Would you?
I want to focus on one last thing in your comments:
I think that in general, they suffer from what amounts to a collective, induced delusion. And so do POC,
Would you agree then that YOU also could be exhibiting your own internalized racism by not considering what I’ve said in this thread? How are you so sure that you are right, and I am wrong, even as multiple people have pointed out the opposite? How do you know that the bigoted things you’ve said, and endorsed, aren’t merely your own delusions?
Because right now, you are unable to see why saying White people are demonic, or suffer from psychosis, or are damaged is bigoted and Wrong, and with respect your goals, does nothing for the cause of anti-racism.
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Zek,
The questions you said you’d answer from me–
1) It’s above, about part of Matari’s comment.
2) Do you agree that being socialized as white has instilled proclivities in you that you have in common with other white people? If so, please provide examples.
And, since you asked me to answer questions of yours that I didn’t before, here again are some of mine that you ignored–
3) Did you even read the [Derailing for Dummies] links I just provided for you? If so, do you indeed see yourself performing above those common privileged modes of derailment?
And I’ll add to that–If you don’t, why not?
4) And finally–why did you not acknowledge my referral to you of those helpful links? Why did you instead dismiss me with a wave of your hand, as “equally obstinate in proving me wrong instead of considering what I’ve said”? (Clearly I did consider what you said, or I wouldn’t have carefully picked those parts of that site. And clearly, I’m not interested in the mere child’s play of “proving you wrong.”)
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Matari,
Aspergum and Abagond, you guys both have the patience of Job!
: /
Ah, yeah, to a fault, I’ve often been told. Too much hope for good in people, I guess! But thanks for the reminder.
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“they suffer from what amounts to a collective, induced delusion.”
for the record I agreed to this, but I guess you didn’t like my tone or I wasn’t humble enough or quick enough to agree in order to be deemed “a good white boy”
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“You seem to have moved away from this, which you said above–have you?”
no. I stand behind my statements. I know you’re having trouble fitting me into your stereotype of “stuff white people do” sorry about that.
Part of my problem with you is that despite all my concessions, you still won’t be happy until I relinquish any and all claims on my own humanity and dignity.
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Oy vey… you cosigned Matari’s comments, so that’d be when you made the assertion that White people are “demonic”, in addition to the psychosis comments. Maybe you should stop defending the indefensible, and simply apologize, admit you didn’t mean that, and move on?
Okay, I’ll do that when you show me where Matari said that WHITE PEOPLE, rather than WHITENESS, is “demonic.”
I’ll wait . . .
I’m asking this question because you’ve reduced White identity to racist behaviors. But there’s more to being White than being racist!
What are some behaviors markable as “common white behaviors,” as opposed to common behaviors among say, Americans in general, that AREN’T racist?
But that doesn’t mean I’ll give you a pass to say offensive things as if they’re true. Would you?
No, and I obviously haven’t. But you see, I’m still waiting for you to clarify just what I’ve said that’s “offensive.”
Would you agree then that YOU also could be exhibiting your own internalized racism by not considering what I’ve said in this thread?
No, because I’ve carefully “considered” everything you’ve said to me in this thread, and answered it carefully as well.
How are you so sure that you are right, and I am wrong, even as multiple people have pointed out the opposite? How do you know that the bigoted things you’ve said, and endorsed, aren’t merely your own delusions?
Which people, you and jason? LOL!
And again, WHAT bigoted things have I said?
Because right now, you are unable to see why saying White people are demonic, or suffer from psychosis, or are damaged is bigoted and Wrong, and with respect your goals, does nothing for the cause of anti-racism.
What the hell is the matter with you? As I said above, for what, the fifth time?
I
do
not
believe
that
white
people
are
demonic!
But they are damaged, and if you can’t understand why I and all learned, experienced, and active white and non-white anti-racists say so, then you’re dismissing a hell of a lot of effective people as “doing nothing for the cause of anti-racism.”
So tell me, Master Zek, just what is wrong with saying that in a racist society, the socialization process damages white people (and non-white people)?
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This has been fun but I have to get ready for a meeting with my fellow demons, oops did I say that out loud? Cat’s out of the bag.
@ Zek, see you in hell bro. 😉
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jason,
“You seem to have moved away from this, which you said above–have you?”
no. I stand behind my statements. I know you’re having trouble fitting me into your stereotype of “stuff white people do” sorry about that.
Part of my problem with you is that despite all my concessions, you still won’t be happy until I relinquish any and all claims on my own humanity and dignity.
No, I was just checking where you are with that.
If I remember right, my impression of your excessive pride came from the way you refused to see your actions in this thread, in relation to the “DFD” links I provided, and in the way, in other places, you refused to acknowledge my pointing out that many of your actions here are common white ways. And now, in the way you haven’t (unless I missed it) addressed Matari’s estimation of the different stance that whites should take in convos like this. And in the way you haven’t addressed my assessment of you with, instead, your fists up, jabbing away defensively and aggressively at topics of your own choosing.
Do you think you have any common white tendencies? If so, which ones?
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jason,
This has been fun but I have to get ready for a meeting with my fellow demons, oops did I say that out loud? Cat’s out of the bag.
Christ, what an asshole.
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Aspergum,
So tell me, Master Zek, just what is wrong with saying that in a racist society, the socialization process damages white people (and non-white people)?
Nothing. I’ve never disagreed with that. I’ve constantly said the same thing myself in this thread.
Again, you keep changing your position, often to fit my own. Why? Why not just say that’s what you believed in the first place?
Okay, I’ll do that when you show me where Matari said that WHITE PEOPLE, rather than WHITENESS, is “demonic.”
This is why I wish you’d have read the entire conversation like I said. I already had it out with King that Matari makes Whiteness = White people, as opposed to a facet of White identity. This is also based on Matari’s comments, which you cosigned, that there are scientific studies to back up White people being demonic, and suffering from a psychological disorder, etc.
Again, this part has already been established. So why do you continuously defend it?? I’ve already told you it’s offensive, and yet you still try to pretend it isn’t! You’re acting JUST LIKE the White racists you hate.
What are some behaviors markable as “common white behaviors,” as opposed to common behaviors among say, Americans in general, that AREN’T racist?
Wow. Just wow.
Not even gonna touch that one.
Actually… how about you go check out SWPL? White people love us some hummus, the TED conference, and the World Cup. We enjoy “picking our own fruit”, camping, hiking, etc. The list goes on.
But seriously, do you really believe Whites possess no behavior that identifies them which isn’t racist? Do you also believe that there are no behaviors which identify Black people, or Latinos, or East-Asians, that aren’t a racist stereotype?
Wait. Don’t answer that. It’ll only be another disappointment.
By the way, you were looking for something offensive that you’ve said? Well, besides the rest that I’ve shown, let’s add this little gem to the list of bigoted Ish you’ve spewed throughout this conversation.
Do you have any other questions? Because I’m getting tired of handing you your *** all day.
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“I
do
not
believe
that
white
people
are
demonic!”
Alright my bad, I don’t believe in demons anyway so your claim that whiteness is demonic only concerns me to the extent that it would be likely to whip up anti-white sentiment. as in anti-white people, not whiteness. Your careless usage of the terms whiteness and white people in reference to psychosis and demonism could very well influence some POC to become violent towards WP.
That’s my problem.
“do you think you have any common white tendencies? If so, which ones?”
i’m sure I do. there’s so many I can’t think of any specific ones right now.
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Yeah SWPL has me pegged 😉 but I know plenty of black and asian people who do most of the stuff in that book too.
“What are some behaviors markable as “common white behaviors,” as opposed to common behaviors among say, Americans in general, that AREN’T racist?”
I can work with this. I think there are some overall cultural differences between american blacks and whites but only in a very general sense. I agree with you that racism is the main thing that separates blacks and whites culturally.
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This is also based on Matari’s comments, which you cosigned, that there are scientific studies to back up White people being demonic, and suffering from a psychological disorder, etc.
Look, my position has not changed. I never said white people are demonic, and that’s never been my position. I cosigned one of Matari’s comments, not all of them. If I misled you into thinking I cosigned all of them, then I do apologize for that (if not, then eat shit).
And btw, where DOES he say, as I asked before, that white PEOPLE are demonic? Quote it, please. He does say that studies show that white people suffer from a psychological disorder, and then he provided some–they do! But as I’ve said, many times now, that’s not the same as saying they are demonic. Let’s separate those two claims now, shall we?
Again, this part has already been established. So why do you continuously defend it?? I’ve already told you it’s offensive, and yet you still try to pretend it isn’t!
It’s offensive that some studies found that white people do tend to have psych disorders? Well, take it up with the researchers, not with me! I don’t think it’s offensive–facts don’t offend me. If they do you, then i guess you find them offensive, so to you, they’re offensive. But that doesn’t make them objectively offensive.
But seriously, do you really believe Whites possess no behavior that identifies them which isn’t racist? Do you also believe that there are no behaviors which identify Black people, or Latinos, or East-Asians, that aren’t a racist stereotype?
Don’t answer my question with more questions. It was not a rhetorical question. I want to know–what common white behaviors, exclusive of other groups, do you think are not racist? I’m not saying there are none; since you brought it up, I want you to name some.
By the way, you were looking for something offensive that you’ve said? Well, besides the rest that I’ve shown, let’s add this little gem to the list of bigoted Ish you’ve spewed throughout this conversation.
What? You still haven’t shown that I’ve said anything offensive, unless that means offensive to little ol’ you, in which case, whatever, dude.
And if you think that asking a non-rhetorical question that you refuse to answer is “offensive,” then you’re off spinning around by yourself in the crazy corner.
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Aspergum
My apologies, I didn’t see your other questions. Here are my answers.
1) It’s above, about part of Matari’s comment.
I have no problem sitting down and shutting up. But this post isn’t about PoC. This post is about White people. It’s actually about me, my family, my ancestors, etc. If I can’t comment here, then what kind of an ally am I? If I can’t comment here, when we’re actually talking about ME — along with other White people — then frankly you’re crazy.
2. I think it has. I didn’t learn a lot about racism until late in life. I very rarely engaged with People of Color, and had little experience with them during my childhood. I still have a hard time determining the difference between humor that uses race, and racist humor. Sometimes I look at People of Color and see more of our differences than our similarities. I still instinctively get more paranoid in my Oakland neighborhood that is primarily Black than when I’ve lived in mostly White neighborhoods. I’m sure there are more, but those are the ones that come to mind.
3. I’d actually already read them before you linked them. But I reread them. And no, I don’t see myself as doing them. Why? Because this topic is actually more about me than it is about you. If it were mostly about you, I’d listen. But unless you want to reveal your race as White (but apparently you’re not White, according to Jason) then I don’t see how…
4. I didn’t appreciate your links because instead of actually addressing my comments, you waved your hand asked me to leave off, as if what I was saying was invalid based on your own value judgement of my expertise. You made an appeal to authority, and an ad hominem, so I realized you weren’t actually listening or seriously participating in the conversation.
If you were, you’d have dealt with what I’d said and responded to it with your own words. Instead you didn’t, and hid behind the comments of others.
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@ zek
You forgot the gem haha
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Jason,
Haha, yeah SWPL is pretty dang hilarious. But it’s definitely difficult to think of specifically “White behaviors” without a whole host of exceptions to the rule, unless you start going by nationality. Like, listing only Irish-American things, etc.
But still, there are differences, as my girlfriend has told me over & over again. (For instance, she used to think White people smelled like baloney when it rained, and that we don’t wash our hands, haha.)
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Jason,
Wait, what gem?? I’m confuseded =/
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jason,
Alright my bad, I don’t believe in demons anyway so your claim that whiteness is demonic only concerns me to the extent that it would be likely to whip up anti-white sentiment. as in anti-white people, not whiteness. Your careless usage of the terms whiteness and white people in reference to psychosis and demonism could very well influence some POC to become violent towards WP.
That’s my problem.
Big of you to admit that fear of the Dark Other is your problem. That it IS a problem, and that you’re exhibiting it. It’s a common white tendency, for sure. As is the presumption that Non-white (or let’s just say who you’re picturing, black) people can’t control themselves very well. As is the presumption that they haven’t thought about all of this stuff a lot already, so that hearing some anti-whiteness stuff could suddenly spur them into beating on some white people.
Yeah, those are common white tendencies all right. Very common ones, and easy to spell out even further.
As I said, big of you to admit to their presence in yourself. Was that so hard?
You seem to swing back and forth in a way, seeing the light sometimes, and refusing to at others. It gets confusing.
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“As is the presumption that they haven’t thought about all of this stuff a lot already, so that hearing some anti-whiteness stuff could suddenly spur them into beating on some white people.”
I am human and therefor I have some tribalism issues. This could be a manifestation of that but as far as I can see, crazy people come in all colors. anti-white rhetoric, anti-black, anti-muslim, anti-jew it’s all bad news. I don’t think blacks are any more or less inclined than any other group to be influenced by hate speech. but people in general can be influenced by it. So, best to avoid it don’t you think? I never said blacks were especially susceptible and I don’t feel that way truthfully.
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“(or let’s just say who you’re picturing, black) people can’t control themselves very well.”
l know that people in general can’t control themselves very well. and actually when I picture people being stirred by hate speech. I picture white people. I picture people like in abagond’s pic at the top of this thread, and I picture white ww2 era Germans. and the Tea Party.
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@ Zek
you said…
“By the way, you were looking for something offensive that you’ve said? Well, besides the rest that I’ve shown, let’s add this little gem to the list of bigoted Ish you’ve spewed throughout this conversation.”
what gem?
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“Big of you to admit that fear of the Dark Other is your problem.”
Maybe you’re right. I do have an issue with that I suppose. I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and was often targeted for reasons I didn’t understand at the time. I think this left me with a fear that when it comes down to it, black people will always see me as an outsider no matter what I do or who I am, or that if I am to trusting they could decide to see me as just another white person/part of the problem.
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jason,
There ya go. You’re tapping into your unconscious a bit there. Yes, it’s individual to your circumstances like that, but a wide-scale, cultural/societal denigration of blackness also fed into and fueled that fear. It’s in all Americans, including black people (though less so, of course, because real experience has taught them better).
More white people should perform that kind of self-analysis. That’s all I’m saying, and that’s all I’ve been getting you and Zek to do. There’s a wealth of opportunity toward that effort in the thread above, if you read it that way, and drop your guard, your defenses. You could do it on your own; I think it’s okay not to report your results.
I don’t mean to be “condescending,” but I’ll just say this too, that I hope you can see that black people and other non-whites have much better reasons than that for not wanting to be too trusting of folks like you (that is, white folks).
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“This is also based on Matari’s comments, which you cosigned, that there are *scientific studies to back up White people being demonic*..”
Stop lying!!!
Oh wait… seeing things that aren’t there is another thing “some” people who are part of the club that holds the most power in the world, do regularly. They don’t call it lying anymore. Now they call it “spin” “half-truths and “false memories” so that they can further whatever perceived advantage to remain on top, OF EVERYTHING, no matter the cost. Yup. They often imagine “black” people doing all sorts of horrific things when the facts often (but not always) prove otherwise.They just can’t help it. And that’s precisely why it is a MENTAL ILLNESS.
And, don’t think I don’t notice your deafening silence regarding the legitimate “scientific” studies you initially scoffed at – because, well, you studied such and such AND you know EVERYTHING damn thing!
Your incredible whiteness is blinding me dude!
Perhaps you should consider giving up being an anti-racist. You got a hellava lot of work to do and a long way to go, friend.
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“but I’ll just say this too, that I hope you can see that black people and other non-whites have much better reasons than that for not wanting to be too trusting of folks like you (that is, white folks).”
well, I can see that whatever fears I have would be magnified if the “other” were a large majority and I was part of a small group with little relative power. because they could act on their prejudices with more impunity and popular support.
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jason,
Yes indeed, and with the relatively greater backing of racist criminal justice and police systems to boot, too.
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Jason,
Ooooh, well that was when Aspergum said, What are some behaviors markable as “common white behaviors,” as opposed to common behaviors among say, Americans in general, that AREN’T racist?
I feel it’s pretty offensive to assume that the only unique White American behaviors they have are racist ones. And demeaning to other groups of people who are just as capable of racism as anyone else.
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Zek,
I feel it’s pretty offensive to assume that the only unique White American behaviors they have are racist ones.
So why don’t you stop your usual squirming around, then, and answer my (non-rhetorical) question? Name some that aren’t racist.
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Aspergum,
I did already… like 6 or 8 comments ago.
Good lord man! Can you read? Have you been paying attention at all this whole time? I swear, this is like the umpteenth time I’ve had to repeat myself and bring you up to speed on the conversation.
*Please* read my comments instead of skimming them if you’re going to respond.
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“What are some behaviors markable as “common white behaviors,” as opposed to common behaviors among say, Americans in general, that AREN’T racist?”
I don’t know, but apparently there’s a bunch because from what I hear, blacks who want to be accepted by white society have to give up their “true selves”
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Matari,
I’m White? Huh? What? Am. I. White? Wait… are you saying… I’m White?
HOLD ON ONE SECOND! ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME I’M WHITE!?
Damn, your powers of perception are amazing! You must be… Captain Obvious! ; )
By the way, you do realize I’ve been ignoring you on purpose, right? So why have you been trying to get my attention? Claiming that I’m lying, or that White people are mentally ill isn’t going to make you seem any more legitimate than the studies you’re misrepresenting.
But nice try!
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Nice article as usual, hope you don’t mind that I linked it to my tumblr.
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Zek,
You wrote (as if my non-rhetorical question was a rhetorical one),
I feel it’s pretty offensive to assume that the only unique White American behaviors they have are racist ones.
And I wrote,
So why don’t you stop your usual squirming around, then, and answer my (non-rhetorical) question? Name some that aren’t racist.
And you wrote in response,
Aspergum,
I did already… like 6 or 8 comments ago.
Good lord man! Can you read?
So now I’m writing,
Do you mean when you wrote hummus, the TED conference, and the World Cup. We enjoy “picking our own fruit”, camping, hiking, etc.? Because I don’t see any other answers from you. And if those are your answers, they’re just, wrong, and stupid, because they’re not uniquely white American behaviors.
If you wrote another comment with answers, it might be hung up in moderation right now; one of mine is.
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Zek,
I’m happy to have you continue to ignore me. Your responses, or lack thereof, don’t negate the points I’m making – not to you per-say, cause you don’t concede much, because you’re seemingly STUCK on winning, but to the interested parties looking on. The more we (all of us here on this thread) say, the more “we” (as in the cyber-world) see “the depth” of the issue. It’s pretty deep! At times it looks hopeless. But let’s hope that it isn’t! : )
http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com/
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/
Two good sites that might work well for you… because the posters and commenters there are probably not as politically incorrect, offensive and blunt as I might seem to be.
Cheers!
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Aspergum,
Those are my answers. If you don’t like them, that’s your problem. But I don’t feel bad, since your question was pretty damn racist. It’s only sad you’ll never understand the irony.
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@ Zek
This is an ad hominem: even if true, so what? It sidesteps the issue. Worse still, it allows you to dismiss every bad thing that black people say about white people. How nice. Your level of thought on this thread is way worse than on other ones.
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Abagond,
This is an ad hominem
If you say so…
even if true, so what?
So I think it means that maybe you should try to find a different reason to explain White racism that isn’t based on prejudice but based on reality.
It sidesteps the issue. Worse still, it allows you to dismiss every bad thing that black people say about white people
How does it allow me or anyone to dismiss anything? I say straight out that they/we — White people — are just as capable of anything you’ve blogged about. It neither denies or dismisses.
Again, you fight against me when I’m agreeing with you, as if I’m trying to deny White racism, but I’m not, nor have I ever.
Why is it so important to you to ensure that every single thing that Black people say about White people be true, and accepted? Do you include the things that are wrong that are said about White people in this statement? Would it be so terrible that you could be wrong, for once? How do you expect to ever overcome racism — not just your own, but others — if you continually dehumanize the very people you have to work with to end it.
That’s why MLK has a national holiday, and Malcolm X does not. Because MLK brought people together, where as Malcolm X, brilliant as he was, drove them apart.
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Zek is one of the better commenters on this blog, but on this thread he has circled the wagons and reverted to racist tropes.
To review for viewers at home:
1. It is racist to call white people racist or say anything bad about them
2. The tone argument or, more particularly, the feelings of white people matter more than the truth
3. Ad hominems
4. False memories
5. Deliberate obtuseness (reading while white)
6. “My girlfriend is black”
7. Centre-staging: The whole point of discussions about racism is to appeal to white people
8. “White people” means “all white people”, whether the “all” is there or not.
Near miss:
9. Quoting Martin Luther King. Jr.
Further reading:
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Abagond,
Wow… way to go off the deep end completely misrepresent me. At least I had the decency to quote only the things you’ve said, and change my statements to match yours.
1. Never said that. Please provide proof.
2. Never said that either. Proof?
3. I did use ad hominems, but as guesses as to your reasons, yet you seemed to have no problem when you used them against me…
4. No false memories. I stuck to what you said, without projecting previous conversations with other people onto you, unlike how you treated me.
5. Deliberate obtuseness? As in you think I’m obtuse? Because I disagree with you? Or is it merely because I’m not falling for deflecting tactics…?
6. My girlfriend IS Black. But I never said that meant I’m right — or wrong.
7. The whole point of this post was about White people, apparently, based on the title, topic, and content. But I’ve never said the whole point of discussions about racism is to appeal to White people. Please provide proof.
8. Black people has always stood for Black people in general, and so has White people. Why are you now being obtuse and pretending they didn’t?
9. Quoting one of the greatest civil rights leaders is a sign of racism now? Haha! But Jared Diamond is okay apparently. Maybe I’ll stick to Bayard Rustin then.
Whew Abagond! Never thought you’d stoop so low as to outright lie. Damn shame.
Apparently you ARE more interested in being right than anything else. That must be why so many of the good commenters here have disappeared over time… Does this mean it’s my cue now too?
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@all: This is pretty weird but interesting, for a non american. When I look this whole discussion it pretty much shows what happens when you grow up and/or live in a racist culture. It is very hard to not to let it influence yourself.
One thing I do not get is this “insulted/offended” thing. I’ve met a lot of religious zelots, recently muslims (radical islamists), who use that as a tactic to stop all discussion when ever they feel like it. “You insult me/my religion/us”, “You insult my religion/our religion/us” etc. Discussion or argument or debate ends right there and then.
Perhaps I am more used to a bit ruffer language so I don’t get offended or insulted so easily, perhaps I am just enough older so I do not get offended by some words or ways of saying things. I do not know what it is.
But interesting still.
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@ Zek:
The numbering below does NOT correspond to the numbering in your comment above:
1. Commenters come and go. I am not here to kiss up to them. I went for a year and a half with no regular commenters at all. If it comes that again, so be it.
2. Where did I outright lie?
3. Proof: I do not have time to go back and pull the relevant quotes, though I do believe that I can back up each trope with an example. Maybe when I have more time I will make it into a post. In the meantime, I will let readers be the judge.
4. I am not hell-bent on being right like you say. In fact I feel like I have spent half my time on this thread trying to get it through you head that I am presenting a best guess, that I could be completely wrong.
5. Despite careful wording and endless repetitions on the part of me, Matari and Aspergum, you have repeatedly misrepresented or misunderstood our point of view. It does not seem like an honest misunderstanding either since the way you misunderstand us allows you to dismiss us as extreme racists. What we say offends you, so you twist our words to ad hom us as raving racists. That way you do not have to take what we say seriously. I cannot read your mind, of course, but that it what SEEMS to be going on.
6. Yes, “white people” does mean “white people in general” or “white people as a whole”, but several times, even after I pointed it out to you, you have taken it to mean ALL white people, every single last one of them, even you, Zek J. Evets. Even after I said that that is not what I meant. At each turn you have made my point of view and Matari’s extreme and laughable, and that is one of the ways you did it. It is a common trick that white racists use.
7. False memories: I gave you an example of this upthread. Matari pointed it out too.
8. Deliberate obtuseness does not mean you disagree with me. It means you do not even understand what I am saying. It means your reading skills suddenly no longer match your writing skills. Like you are suddenly eight years old. I have my GUESS as to why that is (see #5).
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@ Aiych:
Oh yes, link away. Which tumblr is yours?
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Abagond,
1. I’m sure they do. And while that’s you prerogative, I’m merely making the observation that you tend to ban people who have real disagreements with you (i.e. Thad), or they leave because you don’t manage your blog — or yourself — very well (i.e Natasha W).
2. You lied in the previous comment, and in many parts of this one when you say I made statements that I did not after careful insistence that I haven’t. Not through vague wording as you have done — and as Kwamla has cosigned — but through deliberately creating a straw-man and putting words in my mouth.
3. If you don’t, or won’t provide proof of what you say, then I again reiterate #2 and ask you to stop slandering me, unless you want to lose what little respectability you have left. You seem to care so much about honesty for your readers, yet then you lie…
4. You’ve spent half this thread defending a guess that’s been consistently shown as prejudiced, and Wrong. And why is that? I can only guess at your reasons, and since you instigated that tactic so many comments ago, I feel comfortable indulging in it myself. But when I do, you call it ad hominem. And when you do it, you call it something else.
5. I have never said you are an extreme racist. In fact, I’ve hardly called you a racist at all. You called yourself one. You admit to being one, as do I, and yet you’re getting as upset as George Bush did over Kanye West like I’m saying something so horrible by pointing out your own mistakes.
Yet I’ve called you neither raving or extreme, nor have I twisted anything. I’ve held you to your words. If you’re upset at this, then try saying something you won’t be ashamed of.
Meanwhile, as I’ve taken your comments so seriously that I’ve responded to every single one, you’ve hardly addressed my concerns as you promised to do. Indeed, you’ve argued in false faith, even after saying you wouldn’t! You’ve dismissed legitimate criticism even as you attempt to address it.
And when I have the temerity to call you on your own contradictions, suddenly I am attacked for being racist when I haven’t said a thing about People of Color, addressing all my comments in regards to White people on a post about White people.
6. You did qualify that you did not mean all White people, but only after I pointed out the implications of your comments. But then you switched back to it being ALL White people, and when Matari and Aspergum made comments addressing ALL White people, you cosigned them! You’ve been so vague and inconsistent that even Kwamla and Jason have thrown their hands up at you, despite not agreeing with some of the things I’ve said.
Meanwhile, when I asked you to say what you mean, you chose to absent yourself from the conversation, or conveniently ignore those parts of my comments and focus only on the parts you can act outraged at because I’m — again — calling you out on your own mistakes and contradictions in this specific thread.
7. I have no false memories of anything in this conversation. Again, you’re lying and it’s really childish that you’d make up an accusation of my making things up after I’ve already chided you, Aspergum, and Matari of doing that exact behavior to me.
8. I don’t understand you. This is true. Your comments are not that of the person you present yourself as on this blog. Your comments are made of the stuff of the White racists you condemn. Your comments dodge, deflect, and dismiss, as if you’ve never read Racism 101. Yet simultaneously think I need to reread such links. You’ve acted like a classic bigot — not because you are one, but because you’ve engaged in their behaviors to hide behind the very real fact that you took a position you don’t believe in, said some things you can’t prove, and cosigned comments you don’t really agree with, and before you knew it I was putting you blast for it.
And instead of admitting to that, as White people are expected to admit to their racism, you’ve tried to pretend I’m really just another troll, and that this conversation is merely another example of that.
Sadly, this is reality Abagond, and you’re not dealing with Half Sigma or Unamused, or even Obsidian. Project all you want. Talk about your hurt feelings when you are the one who made the offensive statements. Lump me in with your trolls. I don’t really care because you & both know that isn’t true.
But I do hate it when people lie to themselves. And I do hate it even more when they lie to themselves and everyone else.
This entire thread devolved from the moment you decided to hide, instead of taking responsibility for what you said. You had the choice to have an honest conversation, time and again, and you threw it away piece by piece along with the trust of your commenters.
Like I said, it’s a damn shame and all I can do now is shake my head.
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http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=927547
FORGOTTEN RACIAL EQUALITY: IMPLICIT BIAS, DECISION MAKING, AND MISREMEMBERING
PDF link: http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?57+Duke+L.+J.+345+pdf
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@ Zek:
What I said in the post was arguably racist. Fine. I have no trouble with that. I know I am not perfect, that I make mistakes, even huge ones. But if that is all it is, then why the repeated misrepresenations/misunderstanding, the lies/self-delusion, the tone argument, the racist tropes, etc? It is like your white racist guard came up, which is not like you.
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Umm Zek …
“Project” much???
Zek appears to be held “hostage” by what “white” Prof Joe Feagin of Racism Review.com refers to as “the White Racial Frame.” I would describe this framing as a lens or a filter through which most – not all – whites (as well as some PoC) view and see the world based upon their indoctrination into this sick and twisted yet powerful global system stuck on color-ism.
Was that offensive?
{uttered in my best “Did I do that?” Steve Urkel voice}
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@ Zek:
Search on “guess”. Or show me where I said or even co-signed that white people are “demonic”?
Sorry, you are the one with the false memories/self-delusion/lies, whatever it is.
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@ Zek:
and:
If you were black and said all the same things, yes of course I would disagree with you. Did I agree with RR? Did I agree with Matari when he said, “Yes, I’m stating that ‘whiteness’ is demonic”? Do I agree with every black person on here? Hardly. Blacks do not possess some kind of hive mind much less intellectual infallibility. Didn’t they cover this in Racism 101?
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@ Zek:
If you are going to build your argument on common racist fallacies, then expect us to “hide” behind Racism 101 “deflection” links. I mean, do you expect us to sit here and tell you what you should already know and what has already been written about at length elsewhere?
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THE FUNNY & ENTERTAINING SIDE OF RACISM
Zek J Evets (recently wrote on a newer thread)
“I think the main problem with “White is right” is that you become too indoctrinated to even consider another side to the issue. Like, if the earth and sky were reversed, could you still think clearly enough to determine which was which? Same principle: when many White Americans are confronted with a completely different perspective of history and racism, they freeze up, unable to flip the script for one second. And in response to this emotional reaction, they reject the bulk of what’s being said.
I’ve seen it time and again, whenever race has been brought up in my classes people suddenly lose the ability to think. It makes you wonder if it really is true that racism is America’s national disease…”
WOW… Should I believe my own eyes? Let’s see this again! Zek actually said:
” when many White Americans are confronted with a completely different perspective of history and racism, they freeze up, unable to flip the script for one second. And in response to this emotional reaction, they reject the bulk of what’s being said.
I’ve seen it time and again, whenever race has been brought up in my classes [white??] people suddenly lose the ability to think. It makes you wonder if it really is true that racism is America’s national disease…”
Well, looky there..out of the mouths of (white) babes!!!!! LOLOL : )))
Zek? You wouldn’t happen to be a Gemini by any chance? (Hey, absolutely no offense meant to -other- Geminis!)
The moral here is that one had better NOT offend old Zek regarding (his own personal glorious and honorable concepts about the HEART of) WHITENESS. Otherwise apparently he’ll get “his own script” all twisted, off-balance and whatnot.
Yo Zek, Have you considered therapy or counseling, dude? 🙂
Cue Mr. Rodgers’ voice over.
“Class, can you say, schizophrenia?”
“Or, how about psychosis?”
LOL
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@ Matari:
LMAO. Brilliant.
(@ Zek: Psst, that was not a co-sign or a hive-mind moment)
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@ Jason:
You might be interested in this post:
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So I guess the moral of the story is: If you’re white and you care about anti-racism you had better let go of your pride, dignity and self respect. I’m not saying that to be sarcastic it’s just that as I see it, there seems to be no room for any of that on the part of white people who would engage in this type of world view. The reason for this is that as a white person you will always be seen as a representation of evil and/or an evil system if not flat out evil yourself. And if you don’t accept that, well it’s just more proof that you’re evil.
If you do accept all that POC believe to be true about you with no argument…truly accept it. Than you accept that you are evil and there can be no pride, no dignity no self-respect for you.
Basically you’re an Eunuch at that point. Personally, i’m not quite ready to castrate myself of my human dignity in the name of anti-racism.
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There are two kinds of pride.
There is the healthy pride where you are proud of your achievements and that of your family, friends, town, etc. Like what people mean when they say “black pride”.
Then there is the sick or false pride that is based on putting others down or looking down on them. The kind that does not like to admit to ever being wrong or imperfect., It is a pride that deep down is afraid it has nothing to be proud of. Like what people mean when they say “white pride”.
Part of what makes the white identity sick, degraded and dangerous in MANY White Americans is the false pride that lies at the heart of it.
For example, it is all right to be proud of all the things white people invented, like modern medicine. Where it becomes something sick and dangerous is when it is used to put down blacks and others.
A positive, non-racist white identity is possible, but it is not what is currently being provided by the mainstream American culture.
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jason,
Basically you’re an Eunuch at that point.
Nice job equating power with masculinity. You’ve outed yourself as sexist as well.
No, you don’t have to let go of pride, dignity and respect. One can have all of those and still be humble. One can have all of those and still not swagger around in a discussion on the subject (race) which already has you, a white male, at the top of the heap, king of the hill.
Basically, you’re acting pretty white there. Whites do indeed hate to be off center stage for once. So sad that you can’t even see that about yourself. Zek too. That guy got in a fight here, I think, and he’s become blinded in this thread by defensiveness. That’s all I can think of that suddenly makes him want to do little more here than win, by arguing against everything anyone but jason says to him. Maybe he got picked on a lot as a kid.
Zek, I would deal more with my supposedly “racist” question and your obtuse list of non-answers, but I’ve finally joined others and seen what a waste of time that would be.
Abagond must indeed be a sort of spiritual descendant of Job to still be talking to you in this thread.
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This blog has taken a jump of the deep end. I’m no psychologist, but I have read a bit about conformity and group-think. I remember reading about how groups who cluster together tend to get more radical in their views than they would being alone. I have to say that I’m starting to believe that the I start back visiting and reading the comments on this site.
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“Nice job equating power with masculinity. You’ve outed yourself as sexist as well.”
1. it was figurative
2. I don’t care lol. masculinity is a good thing
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“There is the healthy pride where you are proud of your achievements and that of your family, friends, town, etc. ‘
right. that’s the pride i’m talking about obviously. Also I would throw in in the pride of just being a decent human being.
and that’s exactly what is expected that WP divorce themselves from in these spaces. to reject that pride and take up the mantle of the shamed oppressor.
I don’t think that clinging to the idea that you are not a twisted, bad person is equal to “swagger around in a discussion on the subject (race) which already has you, a white male, at the top of the heap, king of the hill.”
Why is it either/or? This is what I’m talking about, just saying “hi, im a person remember?” is equal to “swaggering aloud trying to be king, trying to be mr. oppressor” it’s ridiculous.
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“Nice job equating power with masculinity.”
more either/or nonsense. guess what? masculinity = power and as a man I identify it as such unapologetically. Femininity = power as well. it’s not a zero sum game though that seems to be how you see things. Another problem with radicals of all stripes.
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Aspergum, do you see WP as humble? because what you’re saying is that the proper response for WP is to see ourselves in the same way that YOU see us. I’m pretty sure that it doesn’t look a lot like humility, from what I can tell it looks more like insanity. basically you want us to agree that we are insane. that is a rejection of healthy pride.
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@abagond
I am no doubt as to what I see going on here. Suffice to say I am really saddened by this deterioration into what I see as a simplistic analysis of the “Black experience” vs the “white experience”. Abagond in all of your masterful posts on the complexities, subtleties, direct and indirect manifestations of racism (white ideologies of superiority) in its numerous multi-layered forms you seem to have reached an impasse.
Not only that but you seem intent on trying to obscure and deflect this obvious truth with an illusory debate with Zek as to whether his apparent credentials as an “anti-racist” and “self-aware whitey” need to be reviewed by him again.
Well maybe…. Lets say maybe you’re right! Along with the efforts from Matari and aspergum to uncritically follow through with this. (I personally have my doubts based on my own reading of his comments over the years) It is still dodging, deflecting and ignoring the real issue of this debate here. But then self-reflection is something you seem hell bent on flatly refusing to engage in. As Zek has already tried to point out to you:
That mirror reflects both ways. You of all people should know this you’ve written enough posts on it imploring white Americans to examine themselves in this manner!
Instead you are resorting to comments like this:
Abagond. Here is an example of avoiding direct questions or simply not answering them which Zek refers to. My last comment and questions to you produced this profound enigmatic response which I have yet to adequately decipher.
Kwamla
abagond
Finally. It is no surprise to me, as Zek too has pointed out, you are loosing, what I regard as, qualitative commentators Black and white whether through their own loss of interest or you directly banning them. (Thad) Its contributions from people like this (irrespective of whether you agree with them or not) which intellectually challenge you and force you to focus more on the substantive issues of your arguments. Which, again as I have said, is sadly missing from these debates.
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Jas0n and Zek are some of the most apologetic white folks around, and yet they’re getting hammered here for talking common sense.
This demonstrates my belief that much of “anti-racism” is really just anti-white racism in a fashionable dress.
Kudos to Abagond for setting the table to allow the charade to be exposed.
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“This demonstrates my belief that much of “anti-racism” is really just anti-white racism in a fashionable dress.”
I wouldn’t say that. I would say that any ideology can be hijacked and perverted by as*holes. anti-racism is no different.
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@ Randy
but your response is typical of what most people do when they encounter extreme views. That’s is, to throw the baby out with the bathwater. That’s why it’s important to root out extremist attitudes. All they do is further marginalize this stuff by chasing away normal people. TheCynics comments are a good example of this.
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@ Randy
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@ Kwamla:
Thank you.
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@ Nana:
Thank you.
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Abagond,
What I said in the post was arguably racist. Fine.
Full stop.
Why couldn’t you just admit this like a bajillion comments ago and then move on? Why are you so quick to gloss over your own racism like it’s not something you have to deal with? Trust me: as a White person I know that dealing with your own racism is important!
That you didn’t, or couldn’t do this earlier is WHY we ended up having this whole long, drawn-out conversation full of misunderstandings.
@ Matari:
Wow. Thanks
That was you, apparently cosigning Matari presenting a scientific study and falsely using its data to support that White people, by virtue of being White, suffer from psychological disorders, are demonic, etc. Which is surprising since you should know better than to trust bigoted uses of science.
However, I never said you think White people are/were demonic. And we had out that little point about 20 comments ago. Stop putting words in my mouth? (Including your comments that I think Black people have a hive mind, bleh. Obviously they run on LAN, right???? /sarcasm.)
If you were black and said all the same things, yes of course I would disagree with you.
I’m not sure I believe you… I mean, I would hope so. I certainly would like to believe it. But I’ve seen Kwamla make my arguments TWICE now (and rather more eloquently than I can too, I must say) yet none of you seem to be jumping to label him as a “racist White troll” as you, Matari, and Aspergum have done to me.
More importantly, you’ve demonstrated that you aren’t impartial. You’ve admitted to it, and so it’s harder to take what you say based on faith.
And I know that’s why you *hate* admitting to it, because you’re worried that it’ll make it easier for White people to dismiss your legitimate arguments against racism. But it won’t. People know the truth when they see it.
By the way, I reread this entire thread AGAIN, and it’s surprising how many people here have agreed with me at times, not just Kwamla and Jason, but The Cynic too, and even King (at certain points)!
As for my comment taken from a different thread, you do realize it’s based on an entirely different topic, right? You do realize it’s not at all connected to THIS specific conversation, right? And you do realize that a person can be wrong a lot, but also be right a lot… right??
I mean, I know Matari enjoys vying for my attention like a child by typing variations of my race in CAPITAL letters — probably because most of us haven’t been paying attention to him/her — but I’d like to think your mind can discern that this is a completely different conversation, and that I’m talking with you about this specific situation. Right here. Right now.
So, y’know Abagond, we’ve pretty much drained the dregs of this conversation, and now that we’re sucking on the straws, I wonder if anything said here will sink in. I wonder if you’ll keep searching for a better explanation to racism in America? I wonder, will you attempt to overcome not just the racism in the world, but also within yourself, as I try to do every day? I wonder, because the hearts of White people are not so very different from the hearts of Black people.
We are both human, after all.
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@ jas0nburns
On Abagond’s Bell Hooks link above, he lays out two different views on understanding and responding to racism (James Cone vs. Bell Hooks). But of course, there are many more views all along the continuum of thought on this subject. Anti-racism is a broad, and ever-evolving field of study and there is no single consensus of opinion. Most people’s positions on anti-racism have more to do with their own personal experiences than to any universal and overarching Truth on the matter.
As you can see, Abagond, Martari, Aspergum, Kwamla, and myself, all hold different ideas to a degree, on these issues, yet we are all PoC. Clearly the concept that PoC have one True and singular Answer, based on our long interaction with White racism, is fallacious. Instead, we represent a wide gradient of positions that reflect the many experiences and interactions of our lives. Studying racism is not like studying mathematics or english grammar. Nobody has seen or has experienced all of racism. Nobody understands all of what it is, and nobody is an “expert” on it. We are all reacting, as best we can, to the hydra with many heads.
Therefore, you are not going to get, The Truth today. Now you can certainly hear different ideas from different people, but the real task will always be that of synthesis—making sense of the range of ideas that you hear. Some things you will accept, some things you will reject, and a year from now, you’ll still be adjusting what you believe and what you don’t, as will we all.
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“you are not going to get, The Truth today.”
ha!, I think I just did. thanks king.
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@ Zek:
1. “Wow. Thanks” is not a co-sign. When I co-sign someone I will say the word: “co-sign”.
2. You did say that I think white people are demonic:
3. Kwamla generally agrees with you but he is not sinking to racist tropes to do it. With him I think I could have an intelligent discussion on this subject.
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@ Zek:
I will search for a better explanation, I always am, but I think it would be strange (though not impossible) if at least some part of that explanation was not psychological.
About the only thing I have learned from you in this conversation is that saying anything bad about the psychology of White Americans and trying to work out what leads them to do such terrible things (connecting the dots, I called it) is off limits as “racist” and “offensive” in your eyes (and most likely that of most white people).
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Abagond,
1. Fair enough. I’ll remember that. However, did you agree with his/her comments?
2. You did say that I think white people are demonic:
You do realize I was speaking about the general crowd right? Apparently not. Or you wouldn’t have said so… But yes, I was speaking about the people making those statements, and yes I did lump you in with them. Why? Because you were saying similar things in regards to psychological disorders that White people supposedly possess. The only difference I can think is that yours is a guess, and theirs is an assertion.
3. I disagree. I’m not utilizing any racist tropes. You’ve projected that onto me from the beginning of this conversation. Again, I’ve pointed this out to you because you continuously attempt to portray me as one of your trolls, despite the fact that you have actually been the one acting like them.
However, I have no doubt that you could have an intelligent discussion with Kwamla. You’re capable of having intelligent discussions with many of your commenters — and formers commenters — but you so often choose not to.
However, I find it interesting that I wrote all of the above into a comment, and you miss the most important parts of what I said, which I conveniently put at the beginning and the end.
Selectively commenting? Or selectively reading? Either way, it’s completely disappointing.
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Abagond,
Ahh wait, you’re making multiple comments again. I’ll wait till you finish then.
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@ Zek:
Your comments tend to be long, rambly and rhetorical. I comment on what I remember and where I have something interesting to say. I am not trying to avoid anything. If you have a question, either put it at the end or make your comments shorter.
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@ jason
No one I know is looking for a shamed oppressor. They are looking for white people who can act like decent, fair-minded human beings.
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@ Zek:
I am not admitting that what I said in the post was racist – just that it might be.
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“About the only thing I have learned from you in this conversation is that saying anything bad about the psychology of White Americans and trying to work out what leads them to do such terrible things (connecting the dots, I called it) is off limits as “racist” and “offensive” in your eyes (and most likely that of most white people).”
I think it’s safe to say that both Zek and I have illustrated a willingness to hear critique of white psychology both in this thread and in countless others, as well as offering such critique ourselves. So when you say what you just said above, it makes me feel like you are trying to paint us as Rigid and defiant in a way that might not be fair. could it be that ( as other people have noticed/ mentioned) your stance on these matters has become more polarized recently? maybe in light of recent events?
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@ Kwamla:
Half of Zek’s argument was a tone argument: “I am offended”. That is a logical fallacy. Pointing that out is not deflecting or avoiding anything. It is a huge hole in his argument.
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@ Jason:
That comment applies to Zek, not you. You seemed pretty open minded at least half the time.
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“No one I know is looking for a shamed oppressor. They are looking for white people who can act like decent, fair-minded human beings.”
here’s the thing man, nobody wants to be villainized. Even fair-minded decent people don’t want to be villainized. You can talk about the technicalities of this and that but part of the trick for WP who want to engage in this stuff is learning how to separate: drumroll please….
The critique of tendencies and behavior from villainization.
Many WP who start out in this stuff can’t tell the difference so they get all offended when it isn’t warranted I understand that. They come on here and huff and puff and call you a racist and all that. It takes time and a lot of patience/humility/trust to get to the point where you can discern much needed critique from villainization. I can tell you that I am confident that I can tell the difference, and I feel that what has been occurring here looks more like villainization masquerading as something more noble. Maybe i’m wrong, maybe it’s my old white tendencies creeping out. but something tells me I’m at least partially right in this belief.
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Abagond,
About the only thing I have learned from you in this conversation is that saying anything bad about the psychology of White Americans and trying to work out what leads them to do such terrible things (connecting the dots, I called it) is off limits as “racist” and “offensive” in your eyes (and most likely that of most white people).
I would hope you also learned not to compare White people to wife-beaters, rapists, or Hitler. Why? Because they make you look stupid. And they’re false comparisons. I’m disappointed that’s all you’ve learned though. Apparently you weren’t paying attention to your own struggles that came out in these comments.
I am not admitting that what I said in the post was racist – just that it arguably could be.
First you’ve already admitted that you are a racist. Then you admitted that your comments were racist. And now you’re trying to twist that back to, “Well… it could be…”
Oy vey. And this is why Kwamla and I call you out for being inconsistent.
Your comments tend to be long, rambly and rhetorical. I comment on what I remember and where I have something interesting to say.
What do you need to remember? The comment is like two clicks above you to look at. “Control F” and search dude! Try reading! What do you need to “remember”? And as for having anything interesting to say… when did that become a necessity? You promised to have a real discussion, but now apparently you’re also admitting (in addition to your actions) that you lied about that too?
But I digress. If you can’t keep up with the conversation, then don’t get into it.
Half of Zek’s argument was a tone argument: “I am offended”. That is a logical fallacy. Pointing that out is not deflecting or avoiding anything. It is a huge hole in his argument.
Half, eh? I’m surprised you remember! Apparently you’ve been having trouble with that.
But actually my argument is: I’m offended that you’re using racist stereotypes against White people to explain why they are racist. I’m offended that you attempted to prescribe White people with a psychological disorder despite being against people doing that on your blog. I’m offended that you’ve tried to wiggle out of responsibility for your words, actions, and prejudices while simultaneously projecting your own guilty feelings onto me for your having been put on blast. I’m offended, but that doesn’t negate your comments — or mine.
Anyways, I unfortunately have to go to work, and as this conversation has gone on for nearly 400 comments, I’m going to leave you with this final thought:
Abagond.
When did you start to lose yourself? Was it the first time you experienced White racism, during the problems of your marriage, or has it just been a process covering the whole course of your life?
I’m not doing ad hominem. I’m just asking a question. No need to answer. But think about it. Seriously.
Take care.
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@zek, this is a snippet from Jean-Paul Satre’s introduction to Fanon’s Wretched of the Earth:
“Europeans, you must open this book and enter into it. After a few steps in the darkness you will see strangers gathered around a fire; come close, and listen, for they are talking of the destiny they will mete out to your trading-centres and to the hired soldiers who defend them. They will see you, perhaps, but they will go on talking among themselves, without even lowering their voices. This indifference strikes home: their fathers, shadowy creatures, your creatures, were but dead souls; you it was who allowed them glimpses of light, to you only did they dare speak, and you did not bother to reply to such zombies. Their sons ignore you; a fire warms them and sheds light around them, and you have not lit it. Now, at a respectful distance, it is you who will feel furtive, nightbound and perished with cold. Turn and turn about; in these shadows from whence a new dawn will break, it is you who are the zombies.”
Sartre referred to white people as “zombies”…
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@Jas0nburns
‘I think it’s safe to say that both Zek and I have illustrated a willingness to hear critique of white psychology both in this thread and in countless others, as well as offering such critique ourselves’.
I can’t speak for Zek as I havent engaged in discussion with him previously but it would be fair to say that I have seen more of a willingness on your part to be open to discussing and addressing issues on this particular thread. Compared to some of the interactions I have had with you on recent threads, there is a marked difference in terms of your understanding and appreciation of the perceptions from Black to White and vice versa. In fact, you seem to have had a mini epiphany 🙂
An excerpt from one of your posts states ‘Many WP who start out in this stuff can’t tell the difference so they get all offended when it isn’t warranted I understand that’
I appreciate that following this you have stated you still feel aggrieved by some of the comments that have been made here but, I wonder going forward how you would ‘break down’ all you have discovered/learned to a fellow WP who maybe like you initially stated, could not comprehend posts like this and others that Abagond does?
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@ dememera
That’s a big question. i’ll have to think about it and try to distill it down a bit.
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Demerera I mean. 😉
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@ Vanishing Point
This condensed form (below) works for me! Short, concise and to the point.
“Europeans, you must open this book and enter into it.
….
“it is you who are the zombies.”
Although, I’m willing to lay 10 to 1 odds that “a certain someone” will likely pop up and attempt an argument/statement suggesting your fallacious find is somehow removed from it’s original context and is now maliciously being misrepresented. {rolling my eyes…}
I guess this statement makes Satre a “self-hating” white “racist” Frenchman – according to some folks.
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braaaaains…..BRAIINNNSSSS!
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@matari: Heyyy, that guy Sartre was french! You americans know what they are like, you saved their behinds twice in the last century. Have you seen their president recently? They really are zombies, I am not. Up here it is too damn cold to survive as one. Perhaps something else, like a bear or something. What was it? A reindeer?? 😀
PS. Seriously: I have read Fanons Wretched of the Earth and some other writings back in the 80’s. Strong stuff. And yes, I don’t like Sartre. Not because of that text but his other writings. And his personal life. That man was a dick.
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@Matari
” I guess this statement makes Satre a “self-hating” white “racist” Frenchman – according to some folks.”
lol, I think your condensed version hits it exactly as Sartre intended…
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@Nana, Jas0n:
Abagond may not write his blog for white people, but this post is certainly directed towards them.
What white folks will learn from these exchanges is that no matter how enlightened they strive to be, no matter how understanding, how humble, how compassionate, how believing in the equality of all men, and how willing to accept responsibility for the actions of completely unrelated people from far away lands hundreds of years ago, that it’s not enough.
It’s never enough.
You see white folks, there is a sizable contingent of anti-racists who believe you are fundamentally broken. Irredeemably flawed. Inherently genocidal. Race is a “social construct”, except for white folks. You’re a race, and an evil one at that.
No amount of sacrifice will atone for your misdeeds. No amount of allowing yourselves and your children to be at a disadvantage when applying for jobs or university admissions will rehabilitate you.
But don’t you DARE even consider stopping the anti-white favoritism in jobs and education. Oh no. Even though these biases will never make up for what you’ve (collectively) done in the past, you must continue to supplicatingly offer them without end and without question.
You’re destined to be permanently stereotyped by people who will castigate you for carrying any stereotypes you may have of them.
I think this post was absolutely written for white folks, and they’d be good to heed its message.
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Randy:
Way to exaggerate, way to misread (or not read) the link Nana gave you. Way to misread the post itself. You are falling into the same traps as Zek. Like him, you are not one bit serious about trying to understand what I said. Like him you are just trying to find a way to dismiss it.
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Zek wrote,
But actually my argument is: I’m offended that you’re using racist stereotypes against White people to explain why they are racist. I’m offended that you attempted to prescribe White people with a psychological disorder despite being against people doing that on your blog. I’m offended that you’ve tried to wiggle out of responsibility for your words, actions, and prejudices while simultaneously projecting your own guilty feelings onto me for your having been put on blast. I’m offended, but that doesn’t negate your comments — or mine.
Oh my, the ludicrous, bitter irony of a white person blasting a black person, in a discussion of racism, no less, for being “offended” by something the black person did. With such a long list, too, of butt-hurt laments.
You’re being heartless. And your privileged whitened sense of entitlement reeks of sickness. You’re center-staging yourself. And you simply can’t see the fundamental imbalance in terms of race between you and Abagond, which makes that kind of talk from you incredibly inappropriate, at best.
“Offended”? Really?
Can anyone else help me spell out better what’s wrong with that?
Poor butthurt white people, they just got it so bad these days, don’t they?
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@ Zek:
And how did I supposedly learn that? Because you gave me sound reasons? Or just because you said so, like you are my mother? Or because you were offended and one must never offend white people?
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@ Zek:
WHAT A COLOSSAL PRICK YOU ARE bringing my personal life into this. You have no fucking shame, do you?
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I think Zek won. He finally broke even Abagond’s patience!
Nice work, concern troll.
Do you feel better now?
You, Defender of White People, you won!!!
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In my experience when people use the tone argument they are not one bit interested in understanding your point of view – they are just trying to find a way to dismiss it. Zek has proved to be no different on that score.
A good example is the whole thing about the word “demonic”. You can search the thread for the word itself if you want the blow-by-blow. Here is my summary:
Matari said WHITENESS was demonic. Zek changed that to WHITE PEOPLE are demonic and then hung his own misrepresentation around my neck and Aspergum’s neck in addition to Matari’s. Wow.
When cornered on it after many comments in trying to point out his mistake, he said that Aspergum and I co-signed Matari. We did that when Matari linked to some studies that had nothing to do with anything demonic and I said “Wow. Thanks”. (Not sure what Aspergum said). That was supposedly my co-sign.
Either Zek’s mind is going or he is just not serious about discussing the post. It seems like he is just trying to find a way to dismiss all three of us.
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First I said, “What I said in the post was arguably racist.”
Then I said: “I am not admitting that what I said in the post was racist – just that it arguably could be.”
To which Zek said: “… you admitted that your comments were racist. And now you’re trying to twist that back to, ‘Well… it could be…'”
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Well, if it is a psychological disorder maybe the NAACP should be funding research for a pharmaceutical cure for whiteness. (think of the potential list of side effects) And if it’s demonic, has anyone tried exorcism? That would make a sweet movie.
It’s funny, the zombie thing kind of relates to my comment about eunuchs. same thing really. Coincidence?
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Abagond,
WHAT A COLOSSAL PRICK YOU ARE bringing my personal life into this. You have no fucking shame, do you?
I have no shame in putting people on blast for the messed-up things they’ve said and done. Especially when what they’ve said and done is wrong, and contradictory to what they claim to stand for. Especially when they’ve shown no shame in denying, dismissing, and attacking someone at every turn, throwing their personal life back in their face, and ignoring the stark truth consistently present in so many of the comments made here.
So please, continue to lie to yourself and everyone else here. Just don’t expect anyone to believe it.
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..and speaking of one of my seemingly favorite proclivities – “offending.”
“Abolish the White Race – By Any Means Necessary”
Nope. It wasn’t Brother Malcolm X who said this. It was a white guy.
Of course MANY other “normal” white folks took exception to his message and tried to make it seem like the “abolish movement” was about getting rid of white people – or hating white people, you know, kind of like some here are saying that I said white people are demonic. Or that my language is hateful and I have a chip the size of a tree on my shoulder. But whatever… All this “evolved” white guy was really trying to do was to “enlighten” his brethren and bring them with him to a higher place.
excerpts:
“The white race is a club, which enrolls certain people at birth, without their consent, and brings them up according to its rules. For the most part the members go through life accepting the benefits of membership, without thinking about the costs. When individuals question the rules, the officers are quick to remind them of all they owe to the club, and warn them of the dangers they will face if they leave it.”
….
“The white race consists of those who partake of the privileges of the white skin in this society. Its most wretched members share a status higher, in certain respects, than that of the most exalted persons excluded from it, in return for which they give their support to the system that degrades them.”
“The key to solving the social problems of our age is to abolish the white race. Until that task is accomplished, even partial reform will prove elusive, because white influence permeates every issue in U.S. society, whether domestic or foreign.”
[wow..I like how allies show up at the right time to lend credibility to one’s position! Like that Satre fella, for one – whom Sam thinks was a bonehead. : )) ]
“RACE TRAITOR, treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity.” is this white guy’s actual stated belief. Hmmm… I’m wondering now if he really meant “white people” as opposed to “whiteness” like some very “butt hurt folks” around here seem to continually advocate.
Well, unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on one’s perspective) the movement kinda fizzled into oblivion. I have no illusions or doubts regarding the numerous types of pressures “the machine” aka white supremacy, or whiteness, placed upon this guy in order to dissolve his movement. I’m of the opinion that some things are worth doing, not because doing it is a sure bet, but because it is the right thing to do.
And also because, “if at first you don’t succeed, try – try – again!”
Righto, Zek?? 🙂
@ Abagond? Think you might want to do a post on this guy and his movement?
— Law professor Derrick Bell, author of The Space Traders and other noteworthy works passed on today. RIP Mr. Bell. You were a good and faithful servant. Thank you for inspiring so many to fight the good fight.
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Oh no. I didn’t know that sad news, Matari. “Faces at the Bottom of the Well” was good.
Interesting subtitle to it too, in light of your comment about the abolitionists–“The Permanence Of Racism.”
I guess that’s why trying to dissolve the concept of a white race was deemed an impossible effort. White folks aren’t about to give up their perquisites, nor their racism. Even though most of them THINK they already have. Complicated people, white folks.
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Aspergum
I misspoke. Mr Bell passed yesterday
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“White folks aren’t about to give up their perquisites, nor their racism. Even though most of them THINK they already have.”
You’re absolutely right, especially in the glaring light of recent (and inconsistent) comments posted by some whom I think are much less adversarial – and “racist” – than the more radical and obvious supremacists.
What’s amazing to me is this “new movement” where some whites in the U.S. supposedly feel that they’re now the most discriminated against group. Incredible! This is why I’m given to use the strongest (and apparently so-called offensive) language to describe this over the top, mind boggling, phenomenon known as “whiteness.” Sadly, it is what it is.
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“What’s amazing to me is this “new movement” where some whites in the U.S. supposedly feel that they’re now the most discriminated against group. Incredible! This is why I’m given to use the strongest (and apparently so-called offensive) language to describe this over the top, mind boggling, phenomenon known as “whiteness.” Sadly, it is what it is.”
Oh THAT”S why? because of the lunatic fringe WP? So it’s wrong for WP to judge blacks on the lowest common denominator black person, but because of white privilege, it makes perfect sense for you to judge whites based on the lowest common denominator white person? If you say so. I know i’m white and white person disagreeing = white person lacks humility = white person automatically wrong. So i’ll just take it as a given that i’m wrong and a racist prick. Could you explain your logic to me though? i’m hella curious how you justify this to yourself.
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jb,
Your hypervigilance for any possible slight to white people has led you astray again.
Not to speak for Matari, but he wrote that about WHITENESS, not white people.
Man, that’s one big, heavy-looking chip you have on your shoulder. Why not just, uh, knock it off?
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@ Jason
Some of you white folks have this EXACT & PRECISE language demand thing going on, as in you’re regularly unable to discern the “spirit” rather than the “letter” of a message … okay whatever. I concede that I could have worded that comment a little better.
By the way, I never said or implied that any folks were the lowest common denominator – anything. You, and your boy Zek have this great gift for inventing arguments – and picking at any little nit you think you can create or imagine! It’s getting old, friend.
So here it is again, revised for His Highness, KING Jason… but don’t think that I’ll be playing your little word games much. I’ve got better things to do with my time than to be held hostage to “your imaginations.” You should know I’m not as patient and long suffering as some of the more giving folks around here. If you have further questions or issues about your concerns, once again, http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com is an excellent place to go and unpack YOUR bags. You should try it. It’s an awesome place to go to have things explained (more exact and precise) by people who have already walked the the path you are now on..
Okay …Revised in capital letters –
This is why [IN PART] I’m given to use the strongest (and apparently so-called offensive) language to describe this over the top, mind boggling, phenomenon known as “whiteness.”
Oh, last thing Jason, it might be a good idea for you to also read or re-read Abagond’s post about White Women Crying/Tears. It might help you see some things about “offense” more clearly. Believe it or not, even though I’m ultra critical of some of your ways, I’m still pulling for you. Do try to ‘interpret’ that in a positive way.
Best
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Wow! Can’t believe that this thread has gotten to 400 comments. I had to go back through and read them all. Lots of good as well as surprising thoughts coming from the folks here. One that thing really jumped out at me. “That’s why MLK has a national holiday, and Malcolm X does not. Because MLK brought people together, where as Malcolm X, brilliant as he was, drove them apart.” ORLY??
Or is it the fact that people who are being oppressed and shat on, can’t make the folks who are oppressing them feel bad by being angry and saying “mean” things about their oppressors? Only those that come humbly and peacefully, asking and imploring, are worthy to be listened to and respected. WTF!!!
That is definitely diseased and demonic thinking.
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ORLY??
…
No offense intended, but I did wonder what an airport in Paris had to do with anything….
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From a long time lurker –
I don’t think I’ve ever seen this much fail in one place before, and that’s saying something because if I know one subject with every fiber of my being, it’s fail
Matari, aspergum and abagond, you guys are fucking CHAMPS. If I had the wining powerball ticket, a multi-million dollar mansion, or tickets to a all expenses paid vacation, they would have your names written all over them, because you’ve earned them. Multiple times.
And you guys are prime candidates for becoming the patron saints of patience.
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I’m sorry but after reading alot of the posts on this blog I have come to a reality about myself.
I don’t like it when white people are refered to as folk. or any people for that matter. news stations have picked up on this phenomena. “white folks” have become just “folks” sounds forced in my opinion……….. and .
Peoople of Color is a bullshit characterization of anyone who isn’t white. you “Folks” have read too many anti racist books.
I think you should go watch “meet the folkers” and then watch “little folkers”
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@zak, jason: I really do not get what this is all about. What made you guys go off like that? Offended? C’mon! You get offended by these words? Nothing said here is worse than people say to each other every day, on the contrary, this has been quite civilized discussion in my eyes. And you guys get offended? What are we, 5-year olds??
And zak, I know you are a smart educated guy, and to sink as low as you did throwing in somebodys personal family business out in the open was really, really low. Not good, man, not good at all.
I understand you got upset when some black guy said that white men are insanse or demonic or what ever, but so? Did he said you are? Did somebody here said that this guy zak/jason is a devil and lunatic? No. But you took it that way and why? Because all of sudden you guys where no longer individiuals but part of some mysterious race called The White.
Black guys have been told much worse all their lives and when they say something back, you get offended? You get angry that your “race” is questioned here? What an earth is that? You are not stupid un educated guys like randy here, you should be able to get it. But for some friggin reason you do not. You get offended and angry.
At first I thoughed that you were just having a bad day, you were just venting some frustration, but it went on and on and on. Like, what the heck is going on here? You are offended when a black guy critizises white system? WFT? You take that personally??? Really?
Look at me. I am a white guy, really really white guy. I am north european. I am a white guy coming from genrations after generations of white guys. I do not agree on everything abagond says, or any body else here. It is ok. This is abagonds blog. It is his. He is talking about things he wants to talk about. All we do, but only because abagond is kind enough to let us do so. You do not walk into somebodys home and when the talk offends you start to demand changes and different tones and what ever.
I think and I might be wrong here, but somewhere deep down you guys wanted the exceptance. You wanted these black guys here to say that you are ok, you are right, you are fine, for a white guy. I may be wrong here, but it looks like it. And then when something made you think that perhaps these black guys were not your bossom buddies after all, that they are not in awe of your anti-racist stance, you got dissapointed. And then you got angry. I do not know, I am just guessing here, because your reaction has been a bit strange here, comparing on the other threads.
Perhaps it is so that since you guys have been born and rised in USA and you are whites, you simply do not get the reality of it all. You really believe somewhere down deep in your mind that you have earned something, a gratitude or something, from the black americans. After all, you are a good person. Right?
I’ve seen dozens and dozens of americans say that after they get caught doing something: “But I know I am a good person”. And you guys think that because you are anti-racists that makes you good people, you are on the side of the Good, you should be recognized as such. You think that because of all your good qualities all these black guys here should be treating you nice and accept you as honorarty members of their kind. Well, boys, that may happen in the movies but the real world is a bit different.
First thing you guys should realise that acting up like this you have proven most what these black guys have been saying all along. You have talking about how bad racism is and yadayada and all of sudden you go off: DO NOT SAY ALL THE WHITES ARE DEMONIC! DO NOT DARE TO SAY THE WHITES ARE INSANE! YOU ARE A RACIST!
I mean, what was that? Why did you feel that these words were directed at you guys? Yeap. You are WHITE. Not zak, not jason, but WHITE MEN.
I really do not understand this, guys. Seriously. First thing you do, if you are really anti-racist, is that you give up such concept. You are no longer white. You are you. You the man. Not a white man. Then you start to look around what is going on. You listen what others say. You go out and check it out. You travel and look, see and hear. You try to change the way you see the world, the life, everything. It is not easy. Sure, some black guy tells you that you are white and he does not like you because of that. So what?
You guys need to grow up. People insult each other. People say things in the heat of a discussion. Sometimes we do not like what they say. But we can still listen and wonder why that was said, where it comes from. Instead of getting off like a six year old who has been told he is a smelly pants or something.
Sorry for the lenght, but I thoughed I had to say something here.
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I certainly see why some white people(American, as assumed) feel threatened by this post. If it’s not largely due to the environment they live in, then it must be something inbuilt in them? So if it’s their internal biological problem, how do you solve it? See where one can go with this?
I find this sentence “my best guess is that it is a psychological disorder caused by the way they bring up their children” at odds with the rest of the post. Why do white people bring up their children as they do? Is it determined by the environment (power, tribalism et al) they have been living in? If not, then we go back to ‘internal biological disorder’. And the ‘solution’.
Many logical arguments can be made as to why China didn’t spread its empire as the Europeans did (faster development of Eastern agriculture compared to the West, Hun attacks etc). As for genocides, one must keep in mind that documenting history is a considerably modern feature and by the time this trend of documentation started most parts of the world were already under white imperialist domination. Large parts of ancient history is unknown to today’s humans. Also, most ancient people lived in smaller groups, fought small-scale and hence killed small-scale, but killed nonetheless.
I do share Abagond’s apprehension of the way white people are depicted in American culture. But to counter the wrong, simplistic message of ‘you blokes are basically good due to your whiteness’ you don’t have to resort to a message of ‘you blokes are basically bad due to your whiteness’.
OK, now that I’ve expressed my opinion, I’d suggest Zek to show some civility and apologize to Abagond because THAT comment was WAY BELOW the belt.
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“I don’t like it when white people are refered to as folk..”
@ dave
Dere, dere Dave… (or Bossmin, Massa, Sur!) deres aplenty a tings I don like edder. Lke whyte “FOLKS” alway tellin’ evby bod elsse wat ta do all de dang tyme. An all de hurtins an hatin an killuns an rapins and linchins. I a no wud you means. Dat’s me r’ealty…
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Thank you, sam!
Thank you, Elizabeth!
Piss off please, dave. Go back to your folks. Oh, you’re already there, you say, jabbing away at your keyboard in their basement? Your folks must be so proud of you! And of other white folks like you. Have they convinced you to join the Teabagger Party yet?
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Except for my role as moderator, this will be my last comment on this thread:
@ proudchocolategirl & sam:
Thank you both.
@ anglesanddimensions
I will be brief since I am trying to tear myself away from this thread:
1. When one people takes the place of another (as opposed to mixing) on a continental scale it is detectable thousands of years into the past. In addition to the European expansion into North America and Australia over the past few hundred years, there was the Bantu expansion 2,000 years ago and Austronesian expansion 5,000 years ago. Meanwhile the genetics of Egypt and Italy has changed only slowly during that time. Expansions are not necessarily always genocides, but at least it helps to set a rough upper bound of how rare these events are.
2. In the American case my GUESS is that the roots lie in the lack of the sacrament of penance in Reformed Christianity and the way that affected how Puritans brought up their children. Despite all the heavy immigration it has received, White America sticks pretty closely to the four English cultures that took root there hundreds of years ago.
In any case it seems like some kind of founder-effect cultural mutation took root in Australia and America and, being pretty much cut off from the rest of the world, was able to run wild. A comparison of Australia and New Zealand should tell you something about what is going on.
Further reading (for anyone who is serious about understanding where I am coming from on this):
I will have to leave it at that and bid this thread adieu. Thanks to all who supported me and thanks to all who did not jump to conclusions.
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@ matari
If I was offended at any point during this long exchange, I’m not any more. I don’t consider your comments offensive and you don’t need to reword things to spare my feelings. I’m mostly just trying to understand your reasoning and the mechanisms through which you arrive at your conclusions. I want to understand them because they are so different from my own.
I tend to think in the language of sarcasm and I will try to reign that in and let comments sink in more before responding in the future. My tone seems to be getting in the way as it so often does.
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Seriously Sam?
Finland is probably one of the more hostile countries in the world to immigrants, you probably one of those who likes to criticize others but are very uncomfortable with a black person or any other non-fin person moving to your part of the world.
I know exactly how you work.
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@ ThOne
How could you possible know that about Sam?
How long have the two of you been acquainted?
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@ Matari
Maybe the problem is how I see whiteness.
I see it as a made up fictional category created to generate advantage for some at the expense of others, and I also see it as the cultural identity of a lot of people I like and care about, not to mention myself.
So to me, whiteness isn’t just the bad stuff. It seems like to you, whiteness IS just the bad stuff. So if whiteness is just the bad stuff, and whiteness is white peoples cultural identity, that means that WP have no cultural identity beyond the bad stuff. Is that how you see it?
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jb,
What’s good about whiteness itself?
Most white people have goodness inside them, of course, and most do good things too, along with any bad that whiteness itself causes them to do.
But if you can separate whiteness as an ideology, a sort of social system, from people who happen to be categorized as “white”–then what’s good about whiteness itself, if it “isn’t just the bad stuff”?
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” But if you can separate whiteness as an ideology, a sort of social system, from people who happen to be categorized as “white”–then what’s good about whiteness itself, if it “isn’t just the bad stuff”?
”
well, i’m not saying you’re wrong but up until this point I was operating under the assumption that it’s not only a system of oppression, but also the cultural identity of WP. For a better idea of what I mean, take whatever cultural identity you happen to identify with, then on top of it add “the bad stuff” you think of when you think of whiteness. then you would have my concept of whiteness.
white people have a culture
I’m not sure how i’m supposed to conceive of white people as just individuals + white supremacy ideology.
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So do you guys think of whiteness as an aspect of a larger white culture? or do you think that whiteness IS white culture and white culture is nothing but whiteness?
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If you think that whiteness is white culture in it’s entirety, and that whiteness is bad, than you think that all white culture is bad.
how could a people who’s entire culture is bad be good people even on an individual basis? and yet. I know good white people. See the dilemma?
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@theOne: Yeah, Finland is not a very nice country for a foreigner but luckily I am not Finland, I am me. But nice try anyhow.
“I know exactly how you work.” 😀
I guess you have not been around that long on this blog. If you had been you might know something about me and what I think about what, where I come from, but I guess you have not. Try as you may, I am not going to get it on with the kiddie trolling contest. I’m just too damn old for it!
@king: 😀
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@ Jason
“If you think that whiteness is white culture in it’s entirety, and that whiteness is bad, than you think that all white culture is bad.”
What do/did the learned elders of whiteness at the debunkingwhite site have to say about this?
@ Elizabeth
I appreciate that.
@ Sam
I’m cautiously/guardedly optimistic regarding our two friends …
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“What do/did the learned elders of whiteness at the debunkingwhite site have to say about this?”
i’m looking.
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this is a very interesting post about the film avatar, very thoughtful and not so 2 dimensional as what we’ve been engaged in here.
http://debunkingwhite.livejournal.com/846414.html?thread=17583694
“avatar(and other of its ilk) is an expression of colonialism struggling to find its soul (and failing, yes) but i cant dismiss it as simple racism (although it is, all of western culture is racist, it cannot help but be so). its deeper than that…i can no longer dismiss white culture as a cardboard version of a society that has nothing of substance and that is worthless and soulless.
nothing is one dimensional.
its too easy to dismiss things we hate as such when the truth is as complex as everything else when you scratch beyond the surface.”
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jason,
Okay, as we all know already, white people aren’t bad people, it’s the ideology of white people and white culture, whatever that is, that’s mostly bad. Or maybe all bad–that doesn’t seem settled yet. And yeah, if there is such a thing as “white culture,” you and this person think it’s not ALL bad.
But that brings back my question, which you only answered with more questions–what’s good about whiteness, and/or white culture?
Please provide some examples of good things that are directly attributable to those phenomena, and that are not shared or contributed to by non-white people.
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Wow. Just…..wow. I’m freakin’ speechless at the turn this thread took, and I’m almost doubly surprised at the two who derailed it! Sheesh…I was going to make a point about the Hitler comparison, but at this late stage, it would be a waste of my time…
Damn.
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Jason
“the truth is as complex as everything else when you scratch beyond the surface.”
Yeah, and that requires YOU/ME/EVERYONE who’s willing to look into the light/truth to go/look deeper, and deeper, and yet deeper still. Abagond and MaconD for example, are two that’s willing to go “there” and allow us to witness and partake of their journey into discovering and uncovering.
I don’t know that the going deep(er) ever comes to an end, but it IS a worthwhile and productive so(ul)journ(ey) … maybe it ends in the next dimension, afterlife, Heaven, nirvana, or whatever.
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jason,
“the truth is as complex as everything else when you scratch beyond the surface.”
Thanks for being the white guy who saunters in and tells all the dumb ol’ POC that they’re being too simple about things. That’s like, totally unexpected from white folks when they encounter POC trying to tell them about something complicated. Just boil down their message to something more simple than what it actually is, then accuse THEM of being simplistic.
Uh huh, never seen THAT behavior from a white person before.
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you win
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No, actually, I think I lost. I failed to get you to see in yourself some egregious common white tendencies.
I can see that your continual resistance renders my efforts futile.
So really, since I couldn’t get through to you, you won this struggle. But in a bigger sense, you lost something, and what you lost, or wasted, as I said above, was a chance to understand yourself better.
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aspergum
Are you white?
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Aspergum
Are you by chance, macon d?
Your “vibe” is quite similar …
🙂
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Macon D would know enough to identify himself as white I would think. and he would never say…
“Thanks for being the white guy who saunters in and tells all the dumb ol’ POC that they’re being too simple about things.
implying that he/she is one of the POC that I was “telling” or that every POC in this thread was on the same side of the debate. Macon wouldn’t use derailing for dummies to support his own arguments, because DFD is about how whites respond to POC not other WP.
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I’ll take that silence as a yes. Incredible. hahahahaha wow. what a world we live in.
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Have they convinced you to join the Teabagger Party yet?
Give him another ten minutes.
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“I’ll take that silence as a yes.”
@ Jason
Making assumptions about me isn’t recommended – for a litany of reasons.
Since sarcasm is your language, I’ll use that along with a smidgen of truth to communicate the following:
I just love how – well, you come off like YOU KNOW every damn thing! (Typical white male behavior). But in truth you know little or nothing..relatively speaking.
Your air (patriarchy?), ego, attitude, ideas and beliefs about how everything (you think you see) fits/works is born from this narrow (and limiting whiteness) field of view aka the white racial frame. Even if Aspergum isn’t macon d, you still need to climb up out of that “limiting box” that whiteness (Western Civilization/Euro-centric) puts everybody (especially WHITE PEOPLE) and everything in.
Expand your mind/view/consciousness/etc – regarding unlimited possibilities. Anything and all things are possible. Try thinking outside of that “box.” Try remembering that you actuality “know” next to, or absolutely nothing. Give up conventions (rules/ideas that limit your mind/thinking) and conventional wisdom. Most, if not all, of it is a lie to trap us. Come out from behind the prison/box walls.
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@matari
I wasn’t referring to you.
I was saying I will take aspergums silence to mean that he/she is white. I got no problem with you man. Sorry if I offended you. I thought we were somewhat on the same page. Ive really got no problem with how you see whiteness. I know that to you whiteness is the system of white supremacy and you have every right to attack that as you see fit, and I’m sorry if I gave you or anyone the impression that I would defend that system because I would never. I think we only differ in that I
personally think that there is more to whiteness
than the system of white supremacy racism, but that’s my definition. You have yours, I have
mine. No big deal.
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“Yeah, and that requires YOU/ME/EVERYONE who’s willing to look into the light/truth to go/look deeper, and deeper, and yet deeper still.”
“I don’t know that the going deep(er) ever comes to an end, but it IS a worthwhile and productive so(ul)journ(ey) … maybe it ends in the next dimension, afterlife, Heaven, nirvana, or whatever.”
I appreciated these comments by you and I also appreciated the live journal links. And I appreciate that you didn’t give up on talking to me. NO disrespect whatsoever.
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@Zek—destroy yourself for that low-blow. You were really down in the mud with that one. Scrounging for whatever dirt you could find since you had nothing left huh?
Foul x 10000000000000
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Jason
What if he’s white, or not white? Why does his label/category matter?
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I’m sorry for being late to the party. I never knew the post went down the way it did. I didn’t have time to read all of the comments. So, forgive me if I say anything that’s already said or what not. I hope you all, including Abagond, Zek, Jason, Matari, Sam, Aspergum, King, anyone and everyone else who drops by. Get comfortable. This may be a long one. lol
After seeing this post, I have to agree with Abagond because it seems like a cardinal sin to talk about racism with whites as evidence with what was written as responses in this thread. From experience, I try to explain calmly to some whites about racism, but they don’t want to hear and sometimes they want to flip the script and condemn you in the usual manner. You get irritated by it because you see first-hand that they’re not interested in hearing your pain. So, you get angry, but that still doesn’t get through to them. They will still derail and/or deny anything. Your emotions and experiences are never seen as justified by whites. So, what is a POC to do? If we talk about racism in a calm civilized manner, they will derail, distort, and even destroy your words. If we talk with more emotion, what do you think we will get in return? Derailment, Distortion, and Destruction. How are we to get our point across if it’s met with opposition and disdain almost everytime by not just whites but whites who are supposed to “understand” our plight?
We are ALWAYS told to get our shit together because we caused our own problems, but NOBODY tells white people to do the same. If someone does, they are demonized. If it was a white person, they are seen as a race-traitor or anti-white. If it’s a POC, they are called racists (among other things). For blacks and browns in this nation, we are scapegoat for EVERY single screw-up that happened in this nation. We are this country’s boogeyman, and I, for one, am tired of it.
We live in a world where black people, black men in particular, are seen as existentially guilty, lazy, dumb, and promiscuous just because of the way we look. It’s a trial to prove everyone including members of your own race, that you are not bad, lazy, stupid, or a sexual deviant. I, myself, try to maintained that image everyday of my life, and one slip up, is an automatic confirmation that something’s wrong with me as a black male. Right now, I’m tired, frustrated, angry, and depressed. I try my best not to self-destruct, and keep fighting the demons inside and outside. Yes. Some of you may think that I shouldn’t have to feel this way. That’s true, but I was given this world, not make it.
Whites throughout history have been conditioned to think some of the worst crimes they’ve committed in history was for the greater good. If white people want to be free, they MUST be held accountable and responsible for the privileges that have due to their history. They MUST work with POC and other anti-racist whites in destroying this unbalanced world. Most of all, they have to LISTEN to what we’re saying. Blogs like this are our only means of speaking out. Whites, whether they know it or not, have a board network of outlets for them. Why is it so hard for us to speak out minds without it being labeled racist, angry, or just wrong by whites, and then dismissed? What’s the worst that could happen if we tell OUR STORIES unfiltered and uncensored?
I dunno about the rest of you all, but something’s got to give…and soon.
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Excuse any and all typos I made in my last response.
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Well said Brothawolf.
You made many excellent points!
Co-sign!!.
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Jason,
You said, “I personally think that there is more to whiteness than the system of white supremacy racism,”
I’m interested in hearing about the “more to whiteness than ….” if you’re willing to share/expound/expand on that.
Are you suggesting something like Irish, Italian, British, Polish, German, et al are the sub-cultures that make up the larger and greater “WHITE CULTURE” or that white culture in and of itself minus the above ethnic subsets – that this CULTURE has some (or any) intrinsic goodness (some admirable qualities)?
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@ Matari
This is from the user guidelines of debunking white.
“White people please note: You are expected to name, claim, and make obvious your whiteness in this community, and not to hide it. In the here and now, no white person is free of white privilege, no matter what their intentions may be. Let’s work together to fight injustice as we are, and not for cool points.”
I realize this isn’t debunking white but the sentiment holds as generally true.
You asked me to check out a link and see what it said about whiteness. I went to the link and did a search for white culture. The first thing I found of relevance is what I posted because I thought it would be of interest. Aspergum used that as another opportunity to play the aggrieved party. As if by posting that link I had
“saunterd in and told all the dumb ol’ POC that they’re being too simple about things.”
Which POC was she/he referring to? you matari? Abagond? King? Kwamla? Who was she/he speaking for?
The whole point of Aspergums argument is that WP shouldn’t be telling POC whats what. Well then I would say it’s pretty darn important that one identify one’s race if you’re going to put your race at the center of your argument like that wouldn’t you say? How would aspergum as a white person be in a position to say that my link was offensive in some way? I mean if a WP does something obviously racist than it’s other WP’s job to call them out for sure. but posting a link from debunking white written by a native american on the subject of white culture doesn’t remotely fall under that category. Especially since you Matari personally asked me to check it out and find out what they were saying over there.
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@ matari
as far as white culture goes, it all depends on whether you believe whites have a culture.
Most WP think we don’t. I have come to the understanding that we do, and that it is so ubiquitous, we tend to not be able to see it.
One reason that I believe that whites have a culture is that many, many black people have said on this very blog that in order to be accepted by white people, “you have to give up who you truly are and act differently.” If that’s true, than I can draw no other conclusion than that there is indeed a white culture that is distinct from black culture in some way, I’m not saying totally distinct and separate, i’m saying different enough to be a real, perceivable and important difference.
Abagond says : “White Americans have a culture just like everyone else: they have strange holidays and special foods, they have their own way of dressing, of talking, of family life, their own feelings about dogs, their own ideas about music, female beauty, skin colour and disciplining children. They have their own books, songs, television shows and films. They have blue jeans, rock music and hamburgers. Baseball and Starbucks.”
I think it makes sense to make a distinction between that stuff and the system of white supremacy racism. However, that’s only my view and i’m open to any contrary view you may have on the matter.
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What if he’s white, or not white? Why does his label/category matter?
If he is tall, muscular, and half way intelligent it matters to me Matari! If he is rich I’ll forgo those attributes! Green is the only colour I’ll see at that point! I digress! The toststerone levels in this post is putting me in a romantic mood!
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@ Jason
So then, Abagond’s take on white (American) culture mirrors YOUR OWN take feelings on a separate and distinct white “American” culture?
My take? I don’t think of hamburgers, baseball, Starbucks, blue jeans, rock music (which many believe is an offshoot of a style or type of music that originated with black musicians) are things that are distinctly indigenous/common to white people, white culture, or even “whiteness.” Americans of all “flavors” partake in these same things that are supposedly white activities. Hence, I’m not sure that’s what I’d refer to as “white” culture, even if some of these THINGS are done mostly by white people – like Nascar, mountain climbing, bungee-jumping, hockey, or snow & water sking, for example.
What are some things that white people “generally” do, that other people generally DON’T do, in your opinion?
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Herenith
What if he’s white, or not white? Why does his label/category matter?
If he is tall, muscular, and half way intelligent it matters to me Matari! If he is rich I’ll forgo those attributes! Green is the only colour I’ll see at that point! I digress! The toststerone levels in this post is putting me in a romantic mood!
PMSL. I truly love your responses Herenith I really do :-0
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@ Herneith
“If he is rich I’ll forgo those attributes! Green is the only colour I’ll see at that point!”
I just want to be clear, ma’am …So “any” short, dumb, and racist dude with LOTS OF GREEN BACKS will cause you to forgo that testosterone filled anti-racist soul which truly makes your heart shudder and your toes tingle?? LOL : ))
Have you already depleted your copious supply of floor-wax, satchels and fashionable ladies shoes?
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I don’t know that I would say abagobds view’s on white culture mirror my own precisely, but I would say that we at least agree that it exists. I did say in my previous comment that ” I’m not saying totally distinct and separate, i’m saying different enough to be a real, perceivable and important difference.”
So that means that there is a considerable amount of overlap and exchange between white culture and other cultures.
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@ matari
So, are you saying that blacks and whites basically share the same culture, and that the only thing that makes us different in any way is white supremacy racism?
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Jason
What are some things that white people “generally” do, that other people generally DON’T do, in your opinion?
When you answer this, I think you “might” be closer to my idea of what white culture is – and does.
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@ matari.
Things that white Americans generally do that non-whites don’t also generally do? I think I see where you’re going. The only answer i have is white privilege and the practice of white supremacy racism. The rest of what I consider white culture can’t really be labeled as such because it’s not exclusively white. there is stuff like Indy rock and usage of the word awesome, country music and nascar, voting republican. those are things associated with whites but none of those are things whites IN GENERAL do.
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Can you name something that Black-Americans or Asian-Americans do exclusively?
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Black-American
1. Use the n-word in a friendly way (although some white kids say that to each other now I hear.)
2. See Tyler Perry movies in the theatre.
Asian-American
In the case of first or second generation immigrants could speak the language of whatever region they came from. So only Chinese-Americans would speak fluent Chinese for example.
I don’t really know that culture is about exclusivity, not in modern day America anyway. Culture is a fuzzy and ever changing thing that isn’t so easy to pin down.
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2. See Tyler Perry movies in the theatre.
*(x^#&^%*$($#!@!!!!
My brother is Black and he speaks fluent Chinese. That proves it!
You see, there is no such thing as Asian culture!
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“You see, there is no such thing as Asian culture!”
haha.
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Yeah i don’t know where this “exclusive” thing is going. it’s not really relevant as far as I can see. By using the word exclusive you can erase a lot of significant cultural traits as King has illustrated.
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“Can you name something that Black-Americans or Asian-Americans do exclusively?”
Exclusively – not sure about that. I’m not very knowledgeable about Asian culture to offer an opinion.
Things “black/brown” people -generally- do that whites don’t:
The operative word is “generally.” I could be incorrect regarding some or all of the items on the list below.
Invent slang words/hip phrases
Create hip-hop and other musical forms
Set fashion style trends.. (??)
Dance/Move/Sway/Groove/Bounce .. with lots more smooth style and rhythm
I think we are more relaxed with out bodies. Not as restrictive when it comes to moving …
I think we “party” differently.
Code switch – for example use Ebonics as well as “proper” English.
Black/Brown people “seem” to mourn (or display emotions) differently.. feel things more deeply.
Display passion more readily, easily.
…are a few things that come quickly to mind. I’m sure there’s more.
@ Jason
“Yeah i don’t know where this “exclusive” thing is going. it’s not really relevant as far as I can see.”
Jason, where do YOU think this train of thought could/might go? Not with exclusive differences, but with -general- differences between black/brown & white culture.
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Ah Martari:
Things Black/Brown People -Generally- Do That Whites Don’t:
Invent slang words/hip phrases – Actually English cockney is an entire dialect of such language (originating from East End London) that predates ebonics. “Cockney speakers have a distinctive accent and dialect, and occasionally use rhyming slang. (both from Wiki)
Create hip-hop and other musical forms. – There are quite a few White hip hop groups around who create hip hop.
Set fashion style trends.. – White people set fashion and style trends too, especially the ones in Milan, Paris, London, and New York.
Dance/Move/Sway/Groove/Bounce – Most cultures do this too, they may not come up with the same dances, but we all dance. Latinos, in particular, are known not to be “relaxed with their bodies” when dancing.
Code switch No, you actually get this among cockney speakers and also southerners slang speakers. Also, academics and lawyers often have to switch from a very specific form of trained speech to more mundane conversational language. Some people even switch back and forth between entirely different languages. I wouldn’t use this as a clear differentiator.
Black/Brown people “seem” to mourn (or display emotions) differently.. feel things more deeply. – Wow, that is a huge and unwarranted assumption.
So, there you are, there is no Black culture.
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Just wanted to drop some more evidence in the thread if it’s welcome. This is for jas0nburns and anyone else interested.
Matari said:
“What’s amazing to me is this “new movement” where some whites in the U.S. supposedly feel that they’re now the most discriminated against group.”
And jas0nburns replied that this is a “lunatic fringe” of whites and “the lowest common denominator”, to make the point that Matari is overreacting.
So I will point you to this study published earlier this year:
“Whites believe that they have replaced blacks as the primary victims of racial discrimination in contemporary America, according to a new study from researchers at Tufts University’s School of Arts and Sciences and Harvard Business School.
…Both whites and blacks agree that anti-black racism has decreased over the last 60 years, according to the study. However, whites believe that anti-white racism has increased and is now a bigger problem than anti-black racism.”
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110523124220.htm
I would like to ask, what do you have invested in making it seem like only a “lunatic fringe” of white people hold this delusional belief?
Now Matari and no doubt many of us did not need a study to know that it is a common (not fringe) belief of white Americans that they are the real victims of racism. The victimization of whites is where most discussions of racism end up (and uh, witness this very thread)! Again black folk, we are not crazy, we are not oversensitive, we are not overreacting and we are NOT brainwashed by radical anti-racism. As a means of survival we have to be aware of what white people are thinking and doing.
I would also like to know if, in light of the evidence showing just how far the delusion has gone, you still think Matari is unreasonable in using “the strongest language” to describe and deconstruct whiteness, even if it offends white people?
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@ Danila
I was incorrect in stating that it was a lunatic fringe. I had heard about that study but I forgot about it. Sometimes I forget how delusional WP can be. My bad.
In reference to strong language, I guess it depends on the accuracy of the language more than the “strength”. I admit that I may have overreacted in some cases, still there were some things said here that I object to. For example the idea that being born white is “something bad that happens to you” I don’t feel that objecting to such a twisted sentiment amounts to “calling black people crazy.” or a denial of anti-black racism.
In retrospect, I made some defensive comments in this thread but I hold that some of that was justified, as are your objections to my “lunatic fringe comment”.
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“Jason, where do YOU think this train of thought could/might go? Not with exclusive differences, but with -general- differences between black/brown & white culture.”
well, the whole point for me was based on something that KIng said earlier which if taken seriously probably would have avoided this whole mess…
“My one bone of contention is that the phrase “Whiteness” to label the system is obviously confusing. It may be pithy, but not practical as a descriptor. It’s kind of like calling Black pathology “Blackness” then going on to describe how Blacks have defined themselves and developed certain persistent cultural problems. It is too easy to equate the pathology to the skin color. I get that White people created “Whiteness” but that doesn’t make it any easier to use in conversation.”
whiteness is to easily confused with just the very physical quality of having white skin, and if not that, it can also be confused with white culture in it’s entirety. And when you couple that with comments about being born white as “something bad that happens to you” it kind of makes for some scary misunderstandings. When you say “whiteness” you’re talking about a negative aspect of white culture, an important one yes but still an aspect, not the WHOLE thing. You know what you mean by whiteness, but I don’t. That’s why the word doesn’t work. It’s a linguistic shortcoming.
I hate racism and white supremacy, like HATE, hate it. Feel free to use THE strongest language that you see fit to use to denounce it and I will stand right next to you and do the same.
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@ Danila
Thank you.
Excellent points!!!
Sciencedaily.com – I was trying to remember that site’s name a few days ago. Its a very good source for “scientific” information! : ))
@ Jason
Thank You!
About that linguistic shortcoming (?) — “whiteness?”
Just in case you weren’t aware, (and you too King) it’s the same exact word many “WHITE” academicians, clinicians, sociologists, researchers, professors, writers, liberals, radicals and others use.. Would you (and King) have noticed this same “bone” (or “issue”) while reading the word “whiteness” in THEIR usage of it?
@ King
?
My bad/fault, I should have made it clear in my examples that I was referring to black and white Americans, in this instance. Black American culture differs greatly (even among black Americans themselves as well as) from black Brazilian culture and black Zulu culture and so on, Just as American white culture differs from British culture, Irish, German, Russian, etc.. There’s is no “universal” black or African culture except that all blacks have/share dark(er) skin and the resulting (cultural ?) issues thereof, The inverse of that is that whites share similar complexions and the attendant (cultural ?) “issues” that are passed along from one generation to the next. But, I could be incorrect.
****************
“Black/Brown people “seem” to mourn (or display emotions) differently.. feel things more deeply. – Wow, that is a huge and unwarranted assumption. ”
King – Please tell me how you could possibly “know” that’s an “unwarranted assumption?”
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Jason wrote:
“I admit that I may have overreacted in some cases, still there were some things said here that I object to. For example the idea that being born white is “something bad that happens to you”
Jason, can you expound/expand further the “something bad that happens to you,” part? What does that “look like” or mean – from your perspective?
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it’s like saying being white is a birth defect.
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“King – Please tell me how you could possibly “know” that’s an “unwarranted assumption?””
?!?! You know king is Black right?
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Jason
“it’s like saying being white is a birth defect.”
I would say that the defects regarding whiteness comes well after birth. It not nature (or natural). It’s more like nurture, or the lack of real (true) nurturing. It’s like something or some part of humane-ness, humanity, empathy is nurtured OUT OF white people where “others” particularly black people, are concerned.
Have you ever seen “the doll test” on you tube?
How do you suppose or imagine being black in America is, relative to being white in America?
@ King
“Black/Brown people “seem” to mourn (or display emotions) differently.. feel things more deeply. – Wow, that is a huge and unwarranted assumption. ”
King – Please tell me how you could possibly “know” that’s an “unwarranted assumption?” My question still stands, sir.
@ Jason & King
About that linguistic shortcoming (?) — “whiteness?” …. it’s the same exact word many “WHITE” academicians, clinicians, sociologists, researchers, professors, writers, liberals, radicals and others use.. Would you (and King) have noticed this same “bone” (or “issue”) while reading the word “whiteness” in THEIR usage of it?
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@ Matari
But of course… you see, people (not just cultures) express grief and joy in different ways. The outward expression is not a direct metric of the person’s inner state of being. Some people feel great emotion but express little of it outwardly. Some feel little emotion, yet make great outward show to the contrary.
I personally know many Black folk who are very stoic, even lugubrious at times, and I know many White people who are highly expressive. But to look at people, as a group, and determine that they don’t feel to the same depth as some other group because they don’t seem to express their feelings in the same way is *clearly* unwarranted… very clearly.
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Yes, I would, UNLESS they were good enough to *first* define the term (as they meant to use it) and qualify it’s meaning.
Are you saying that these academics failed to do this? If so, please name which ones you think did, and in which books or papers you observed this to be the case.
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jas0nburns said: “For example the idea that being born white is “something bad that happens to you” I don’t feel that objecting to such a twisted sentiment amounts to “calling black people crazy.” or a denial of anti-black racism.”
To me it seems like you are getting caught up in defending yourself as a white person and not really paying attention to what has been carefully explained over and over. Anything I’m about to say has already BEEN said and I really don’t understand what is going on here.
Being born white in America IS something bad since it means you will be indoctrinated into a sick and twisted system that advocates genocide and race-hatred. I wouldn’t find it offensive or odd if someone said that being born black in America is “something bad that happens to you”, so I don’t understand why you find it racist or offensive to say it’s bad to be born white in an environment such as this.
“whiteness is to easily confused with just the very physical quality of having white skin, and if not that, it can also be confused with white culture in it’s entirety.”
Honestly jason, I don’t think YOU should be getting it confused at this point. I think by now you should know that whiteness does not simply refer to “the very physical quality of having white skin”. That’s why this conversation has been so frustrating to read (can’t imagine how hard it was to participate in): by now you ought to know that it simply isn’t about having white skin, so you’re being defensive on behalf of…who? Other, less aware white people? And if so, WHY? Why are you so much more concerned with their feelings than the feelings of those who just want to speak out, strongly, forthrightly, and honestly, about how terrible things are here?
I mean, right there in the post as abagond explained over and over, he’s clearly NOT referring to everyone who has white skin because he exempts even the South African whites, who are not only white but racist too. Wasn’t that a clue that the issue is not just skin color or a birth defect?
There have been so many links on whiteness posted in this thread. All of them make clear that it’s not about something natural like a birth defect. Whiteness is socially constructed. In America, whiteness has been the justification for atrocities and continues to be such.
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@ King
“But to look at people, as a group, and determine that they don’t feel to the same depth as some other group because they don’t seem to express their feelings in the same way is *clearly* unwarranted… very clearly.”
I don’t agree, based upon years of first hand anecdotal and very up close observations and experiences. Again, it “SEEMS” to me that white Americans, in general, as a group have a certain deficit, or pathology, that is unique to how they behave, act, think, talk …. They “seem” more “restricted” emotionally and in other not so easily defined ways. They are not as free in their “being” because “whiteness” demands being “boxed” in, or up. I think the causation is how “whiteness” conditions them to be – rigid .. “white.” Fenced in. Perhaps this isn’t the best way to describe what I want to say, but … At this juncture, we can simply agree to disagree.
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“Yes, I would, UNLESS they were good enough to *first* define the term (as they meant to use it) and qualify it’s meaning.”
Okay. Good enough. I won’t debate with you any further on the shoulds and shouldn’ts on how “whiteness,” or any other word should be “first” defined. :))
I tend to (but not always) employ “/” when I write, like for example, whiteness/racism/white-supremacy/evil to help convey the idea I’m trying to get across to the reader. To me, the word “whiteness” isn’t a complicated word that warrants defining and qualifying — especially on a blog that discusses racism/white-supremacy.
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“They are not as free in their “being” because “whiteness” demands being “boxed” in, or up.”
see? the above comment doesn’t even have anything to do with racism or white supremacy or privilege or oppression on any of the things that “whiteness” is SUPPOSED to have meant this whole time. It’s just straight up racial essentialism.
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Martari
You do realize that your personal experiences and observations mean nothing statistically, don’t you? How many White people live in the United States? In fact, of the 50 States, how many of them have you lived in? What percentage of the U.S. White population have you personally observed? What could one extrapolate about Black people based on the experiences of one non-Black person?
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” Again, it “SEEMS” to me that white Americans, in general, as a group have a certain deficit, or pathology, that is unique to how they behave, act, think, talk …. They “seem” more “restricted” emotionally.”
Where as black people seem to be overly-emotional, over-react to every situation and lack any form of impulse control.
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“They are not as free in their “being” because “whiteness” demands being “boxed” in, or up.”
see? the above comment doesn’t even have anything to do with racism or white supremacy or privilege or oppression on any of the things that “whiteness” is SUPPOSED to have meant this whole time. It’s just straight up racial essentialism.
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Wrong. It has EVERYTHING to do with racism. Whites couldn’t be racists (and blind as bats!) for almost 400 years without succumbing to the demands/beliefs/conditioning/mental gymnastics/insanity that “whiteness” requires! Whiteness IS all pervasive and all very corrosive. It affects everything and EVERYONE it touches.Why else do you think some “white” people would say, “treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity.”
You certainly won’t believe me, but for your sake you might believe them.
Good luck to you.
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Myself, kindly put the word “seem” in quotation marks.
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@ King
With you, I have nothing further to say/argue/debate.
@ The NOISE that’s all over Abagond’s blog.
If this were my blog, you would have been banned long ago – for so many reasons. You’re not worth my time, or energy. You’re just pure noise, and nothing else.
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what does that have to do with not being “free in their being”? So like, we aren’t good at dancing cause we’re so racist? lol
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Matari, King take heart!
To the Noise:
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Oh king, I think I thought of something done by exclusively white people. Refuse to have their children vaccinated.
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LOL!! The return of the LAUGHING ASS!!!
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@ Jas0nburns
You only think that because you don’t live in California!
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Dang it! Are there any non-white Amish people?
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Lol! Anything is possible 🙂
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What a strange fantasy world you inhabit — where whites have “hearts of stone,” not blacks. Look at the way blacks behave. Look at their crime, their illegitimacy. They’re a disaster. Whites didn’t do that; blacks did it to themselves.
Whites have, in fact, immeasurably improved blacks’ existence. Just compare blacks in America to blacks in Africa. Where’s the gratitude, abagond? Why aren’t you thanking the white man for all he’s given you?
Whites died to free your people from slavery — which they were sold into by your people. Always remember that: whites didn’t invent slavery, they just ended it.
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Oh no.. not Unamused…
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@ Unamused
Whites have, in fact, immeasurably improved blacks’ existence. Just compare blacks in America to blacks in Africa. Where’s the gratitude, abagond? Why aren’t you thanking the white man for all he’s given you?
In terms of the picture at the head of this post how would you say exactly that this has improved the existense of blacks? Are the ‘whites’ pictured in the photograph indeed to be ‘thanked’ for the gift of lynching in this instance!
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@Unamused, you’re the man living in the fantasty world of noble whites. After colonialism, 2 world wars, the near annihilation of the Native Americans, the enslavement of Africans, pollution caused by industrialism, you dare compare the evils of whites to those of blacks. Illegitimacy, really?
PS. Illegitimacy is not a crime. There’s no law that says two people must be married to create children. Sweden has an illegitimacy rate of 65%, camparable to 70% for black Americans. What a strange fantasy world you inhabit — where whites have “hearts of stone,” not blacks. Look at the way blacks behave. Look at their crime, their illegitimacy. They’re a disaster. Whites didn’t do that; blacks did it to themselves.
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Don’t get Unamused started or else he will end up repeating himself over and over using false stats and outright racist assumptions. Just leave him alone so he can continue living in his own little world.
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With a looong manifesto which he will write and post both here and on his site.
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Colonialism improved the existence of every black-and-brown shithole it touched. That’s just history. Learn some. Once again, whites freed the slaves. That’s their role in the history of slavery. Blacks are still enslaving people today! (Looks like they didn’t get the white man’s memo to stop already.)
PS Never said illegitimacy was a crime. That’s just… well, that’s just reading comprehension! Illegitimacy is merely another example of black dysfunction and savagery.
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[…] and other commentators on the subject of racism. One of his last posts, in particular, – The hearts of white people, part II – produced such an avalanche of comments that even abagond had to admit he, […]
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I don’t agree. Genocide is not rare, it is common, and all racial groups are equally vile and repulsive when it comes to ingrouping and outgrouping.This is a list of genocides only in the past hundred years. It is enough to make you cry, but as they say, one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic” That quote was from an Armenian we all know and (don’t) love.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/dictat.html
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Oops, Georgian, not Armenian.
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@Demera
Well; as I pointed out in my post, it may come down to me simply being from the US and not seeing the cultural subtitles between the African-British and the Anglo-British.
But yes; to borrow your statement, to me British Black people simply come off as a darker shade of British people.
They seem to act British, talk British, their facial expressions and how they physically move seem fairly similiar.
At least from the perspective of a guy who has had minimal contact with british individuals of all ethnic types and judges alot of what he has seen on news, movies, commercials etc……
So take that for what its worth.
To me; US-Blacks seem to have a far more distinct culture than black people of other nationalities in Europe.
And for that matter; European black people do seem to have the problem of US-Black people of giving them flack for “acting white”, French, English etc….
This is of course from my limited interactions with the various groups but its just something I’ve observed and hardly a scientific study but there you go.
If I had to give a theory why; I would guess something to do Europeans while still being racism not coming anywhere close to the level that anglo’s in the US do.
Basically people of african descent can feel like civilians in the varying countries, finnland, england, france etc…..whereas in the US they may never truly feel like they belong here or are actually considered a part of this country.
They always feel like “The Other” whereas that maynot be as prevalent in Europe.
So in the european countries assimilation was more wide spread whereas in the US a more race specific sense of culture was needed to create a sense of belonging and unity.
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The cause of racism is the unconcscious egoic mind. Black people “awaken” quicker due to the fact they are forced to disidentify from the story of “black” through the suffering of racism, particularly if they grow up isolated in white communities. Eventually the number of awakened “blacks” will far outweigh the number of awakened whites, and they will once again be the most powerful “race” on earth. Similarly to how the suffering of “women” is causing them to awaken faster than “men”. I use quotation marks over specific words due to the fact these definitions are simply egoic identities, whereas the truth is, underneath physical appearances, we are all one. Read “The power of NOW”. By the way has anyone noticed how iPhones automatically capitalise the word “White” and not “black”? It’s quite frustrating having to delete all them damn capital W’s and replace them with lower case ones. =P
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Why is white supremacy being spoken about as if it’s ‘white culture’? Only a tiny minority of white people think like that, it’s unfair to tar us all with the same brush! It’s akin to calling gun crime ‘black culture’… It’s not accurate or representative of individuals. I live in England so maybe things are different here but I certainly don’t encounter many white supremacists, although I’m aware they do exist! The other thing to remember when talking of white people’s history is that the atrocities committed against black people were carried out by the upper classes whilst the poor (which a lot of our ancestors were) remained in England working in factories, leaving school at 12 and struggling to get by. Maybe I’m naive but I like to think it’s just possible to judge people as they come, not based on what you perceive their culture or history to be.
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“Why is white supremacy being spoken about as if it’s ‘white culture’?
…..
Maybe I’m naive … ”
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Londongirl
KEEP READING the posts re race written by Abagond.
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I am white, I am growing up in an ex klan town, with mildly racist family. I try my best to keep open minded even though I know that what was taught to me at a young age is set deep in stone, I hate myself for this and it sickens me. I am mostly Irish heritage and my family came here sometime after the civil war and up to the Great Depression. None of my relatives had slaves which is a misconception that we all had 50 slaves and most of my family is quite poor compared to many in the US.. During the depression era Irish, Catholics, ittalians, and yes African Americans where hated by the American public obvouisly not as bad but had no power to oppress either, Whites obviously aren’t the only group to attempt genicide, musslim groups and Christian groups have gone back and forth forever,Egyptians enslaved the Jew which I know isn’t genicide but similar. Every civilization has rode on some group of people, Rome, Eygpt, Greek just to name a few. I wish these things in history could be forgotten and live and let live but that’s how it happens again. You can call me a biggot and I know I am. I just dislike having the air of only whites are the racist ones.
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With a moniker like ‘Bacon Strips'(I presume you are referring to you filthy hygienic habits), you can’t be taken seriously. Perhaps that is your intent though.
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So, what is the collective heart condition of the children who are born to those in a mixed (Afro/Euro) marriage?
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Just curious, did someone pass a law banning the proper use of punctuation? Maybe I am being picky but I just refuse to read a comment that is nothing more than a series of run on sentences with a few commas and periods thrown in. Please, commenters, if you must unload your emotional baggage online at least try to do it eloquently.
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@baconstrip
” … I wish these things in history could be forgotten …”
and so do a lot of school boards across the country.
But, that is so completely wrong. People have a right to learn about their history. And we need to understand history to understand the present and future. Erasing history does not help us.
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I forgot to mention a point.
You did not say ” … I wish these things in history DID NOT HAPPEN …” but instead said ” … I wish these things in history could be forgotten …”
You did not seem upset that they happened, but that people tried to remember them and learn about them.
That is scary.
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[…] The hearts of white people, part II […]
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@Abagond
“In part one I argued that white people are born with the same hearts as black people but, because power corrupts, power has turned their hearts to stone.
Among other things I said:
If history had turned out a little differently, if Africa had been the first to have guns and ocean-going ships, then it would be black men killing red men. And the slave forts would not be in Cabinda, Mina and Quiloa but in London, Lisbon and Antwerp.
This is roughly what Jared Diamond argues, that guns, germs and steel – and geography – are what account for the broad ups and downs of history, not race or even culture.
But this normalizes White American racism.
It sees it as natural, as an ordinary part of human nature. It takes for granted that everyone, deep down, is a violent racist and, if given the chance, will act accordingly, like by wiping out one race while making slaves of another, as in my example.
I was fooled not just by good old American white-is-right brainwashing and by how common racism is in America, but also by the genocides in the Bible, committed both by and against the Jews.
If most of what you know about history comes from the Bible and American history, then genocide seems to be pretty common. But I should have known better since I knew Greek history and enough Chinese and Roman history to know that genocides are rare.
Chinese history is more damning still: it is the Chinese who invented gunpowder and the compass. Some even say they got to North America before Columbus. Yet it was the Europeans, not the Chinese, who turned these things to such deadly effect – a huge weakness of Diamond’s argument.
There are plenty of other counter-examples: Egypt, India, Mexico, New Zealand and South Africa, for example, would all be far whiter than they are if genocides were common, if White American levels of racism were simply a matter of human nature and advanced weaponry, of tribalism and technology.
White American levels of racism cannot be accounted for by the us-and-them tribalism that seems to be a part of human nature. Their racism goes way beyond that. Like carrying out military style raids on black homes that have children’s toys out front. (RIP Aiyana.)
Nor can it even be accounted for by mere power since, like their cousins the Nazis, they exercise that power in sick and twisted ways not commonly seen in others.
There is something else at work. My best guess is that it is a psychological disorder caused by the way they bring up their children. What White Americans would quickly call a pathology if it were found in black people. Whatever it is, it makes them unaccepting of people who are different and gives them a need to look down on and dehumanize others in order to feel good about themselves”.
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Change white for black and black for white. Now who is the racist?
You really need stop this anti-white agenda. It’s not going make U fell comfortble,only create more trouble.
I’m white, I’m not evil and I’ll not fill myself with guilty. White not means previgiled, many whites not born in an golden cradle, nor are rich or priveleged. Get on true facts nor your anti-white stupidity!
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I’ve always known that white people are dead on the inside. If you watch them for a little while, as I have, you’ll see they pretend to be human. That’s why their mannerisms often come off as overdramatic or fake. They have no souls. Here’s an experiment for you non-whites: Find the nicest white person you know preferably a white male and correct him or in some way make him feel that you just might be more knowledgeable than him about anything. What happens next is the true nature of that so called nice white person. White people feel like there always has to be a best when it comes to humans. Black people are the opposite of them so if Blacks are the best then that makes Whites the worst. (Not true at all but this is the way white people view things…..in black and white.) This will never change. It is their nature and everyone else just has to learn to tolerate it. It is what it is.
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um sorry buddy but africans WERRE THE FIRST to travel the WORLD…and no we did not destruct anything we simply left our marks and even went as far as get europe out of the dark age in the 1200’s. So your thesis is incorrect. and as far as it being specifically white americans…your a damn fool for believe that.. remember the WHITE MEN THAT CAME OVER HERE…WHO ARE JUST AS RACIST AS THE WHITE PEOPLE OF TODAY…ORIGINATED FROM ENGLAND….WHY DO YOU THINK THERES BLACKS IN ENGLAND, OR FRANCE…YOU THIN SLAVERY JUST SECLUDED ITSELF TO THE AMERICAS? absolutely not…you need to watch a documentary thats free online called HIDDEN COLORS by Tariq Nasheed…THIS WILL ANSWER MOST OF THE QUESTIONS…and watch part two as well..
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What is scary is this is just another toxic post breeding a different form of racism. If the next few generations grow up thinking of white people in this way, it will only breed more hate and resentment. How is that any better or different than telling a young child that black people are inferior? Teach your children to love and respect everyone, forgive but never forget and, don’t let history repeat itself.
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Caucasians are evil it has nothing to do with power.it is how they came into power and how they maintain power and what they do with power. After thousands of years of this only an insane fool or a white supremacy advocate sees different. How much must one rape kill poison you to prove they are evil. Every Caucasian chooses to support this evil and will not fight to be any different than the evil they are born into. OK one did john brown and they killed him. Do not expect your rapist tormentor to ever free you they may adjust the shackles. Evil is as evil does and hates being called by its name
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Most racist stuff I’ve seen in a while. Judging the entire white race on the actions of only a small few. Your report on white peoples being racist is actually racist itself way to be hateful and I think whoever wright this is probably one of the most racist people out there the ignorance and hate produced in this is sad.
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I love your posts. I read the first one also. Definitely eye-opening and though-provoking.
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