Black shame is the shame that some blacks in America feel when a black person does something bad or more generally when they think that many blacks are just no good. It comes from growing up black in a white racist country.
White people judge blacks based on the worst among them. People like Oprah and Obama are seen as exceptions, while murderers, rapists and robbers are not. Since blacks in America are seen as being pretty much all the same, you can judge all 40 million of them based on the actions of a few bad apples.
White Americans are not judged like that. They are “individuals”. Judging all 200 million of them based on a few bad apples would be “racist”, it would be “demonizing” them, it would be seen as “hating” them. But meanwhile doing the same to blacks is “being realistic”, it is “facing up to unpleasant truths” and all that.
When whites do this, it is just them being racist. But when blacks do it, it leads to shame, which over enough time can lead to internalized racism and the confusion, self-doubt and even self-hatred and self-destruction that can follow.
It is a hard thing to avoid: whites in America pretty much control what gets taught in school, reported in the newspapers and shown on television. They control the image that whites and blacks have. So they generally put whites in a good light and blacks in a bad light. Unless you or your parents are fighting that with other images of blacks, you will find yourself believing it at some level.
America has been built on the idea that “white is right” and blacks are messed up. It was necessary for whites to believe that to accept slavery, and it is still necessary for them to believe it to live comfortably in an unequal society. On top of that, the White American sense of self-worth is based in part on looking down on black people. Whites have a need to believe that blacks are screwed up.
That means you cannot trust what white people say. You got to question everything. Everything. They are not an honest people. Not everything that comes out of their mouths is a lie, of course, but way too much of it is. They twist facts, they play up certain facts and leave out others. They even flat-out make stuff up. Even professors at universities. Living in America is living in a land of lies. Only the truth can set you free.
Whites quickly believe the worst about blacks and do not question it. You know that because sometimes all it takes to prove them wrong is a simple Internet search.
That is not to say that blacks are perfect, that they do not have serious issues. But it is to say that blacks are not nearly as messed up, nor whites nearly as wonderful, as you are led to believe.
Thanks to Blaque Ink for suggesting this topic, one on which he has written himself.
See also:
I thought this feeling of shame is universal. I mean, feeling shame when a person of group you identify with does something bad, which makes you all look bad.
I know people here do. And it’s hardly restricted to my part of the world.
Also, I’ve heard Americans do this, too. (Feeling ashamed when an American does something really stupid; millions of Americans felt ashamed for wrongdoings of previous American president).
So it’s definitely not restricted to race. But this feeling of shame tends to be stronger when you’re aware there are so many stereotypes about your group, or that its members are not seen as individuals. So instead of seeing a bad person as a bad individual, you, yourself feel shame because you know others will identify this sort of behavior to you, too.
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@Mira
I co-sign your viewpoint. Living in The States, you tend to have what was written above in mind regardless, though it’s fading for me. I suppose living in an area where there isn’t a substantial POC population has sort of helped squash this notion.
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Abagond,
I don’t have a problem per se with your premise here, but I do have a problem with your tendency to underplay or sweep under the rug very real problems that African Americans have. One such problem is indeed the highschool dropout rate, another is the very high OOW birthrate, and yet another is the high proportion of violent crimes Blacks commit, both against each other and against others, most notably, Whites. We can ignore all these things as just the racial/racist machinations of Whites, but all of these things are things that Blacks discuss among themselves – so long as we are out of earshot of Whites.
I see you and bloggers like you in the Afrosphere, as kinda doing a disservice to the idea of balanced dialogue and in truth are no better than White Nationalists who toot their own horn. There is nothing inherently wrong with taking issue with racism AND taking our own to task for falling down on the job, just as openly. Why you champion the former and patently refuse to do the latter, undermines any notions you may have of being intellectually honest.
O.
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I think the statement “you can’t trust white people” is true when it comes to issues of race because in a general sense whites are steered towards an unrealistic and self-serving view of things. Buy beyond specific race-central issues I don’t think it’s fair to characterize whites as any more untrustworthy in general than any other racial group.
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“Unless you or your parents are fighting that with other images of blacks, you will find yourself believing it at some level.”
This is important I think. Basically we are all drinking the same Kool-Aid. I get the impression that both blacks and whites tend to believe roughly the same things ABOUT blacks and whites respectively. So that same set of beliefs when held by a black person is going to be shame, when held by a white person it’s racism. The beliefs are the same, the only difference is which side of the isle your standing on and how that same set of beliefs effects your group. I think recognizing this is important and viewing racism this way would be helpful in building a coalition against it because it highlights a shared belief system. both blacks and whites suffer from the exact same delusion. black pathology and white racism are two sides of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other.
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Abagond,
Here’s a few lines from today’s post over at Very Smart Brothas:
“What’s in a name?
There’s a high school in Washington, DC, that has currently been having more problems than three hypochondriac crackheads with an itch and a cough. There was recently (well last late year) a girl sexually assaulted in the school by a bunch of males who then had her name, face, and phone number plastered all over fliers that were passed out around the school as an “easy ride”. They’ve got gang problems. In fact, for a solid two months, I noticed no less than 10 police squad cards parked in front of the school. It’s a shame really. This school in its current iteration is a direct descendant of the famous (especially amongst older Black Americans) M Street School.
Yes, this high school is Paul Laurence Dunbar Senior High School.
And you know what? Every day I drive by I wonder aloud to the invisible passengers in my car if Dunbar wouldn’t want his name removed from that school. I know I would. If my name is going to be attached to something, which is an honor, I’d like it to be attached to something that doesn’t involve police, violent crimes, and plain ole f*ck sh*t. Of course, since most of our heroes names get attached to stuff in the Black community, which is generally inner city, well, we’re kind of stuck like chuck.”
Question: would you agree that it is entirely possible to discuss, openly, Black dysfunction and problems, AND, take up the very real issues of racism and Race? To me, in my world, there is room for both.
Why isn’t there in yours?
O.
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Jason,
Please explain to me how a dirty Black neighborhood is inextricably linked to White racism? Did the KKK make Pookie or Ray Ray toss litter around? I need clarification.
Thanks!
O.
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I think what is truly sad is the large number of black people who make racist comments about other black people and feel no sense of shame whatsoever. The black woman or black man who say they only date white men or women because………! The comments section of many black blogs have become a war zone where black men and women seem to delight in eviscerating each other. I see and hear it all the time and it is so depressing. Many of these are offenders are well educated and feel there is nothing wrong with spouting hateful and racist comments about members of their own race. I find this to be far more disturbing than anything any white person says or thinks about me.
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I see Obsidian is going to use this post to sh*t all over black people. I gave up black shame a LOOOOONG time ago. I’m sorry, but it is not my responsibility to care about what ppl who are not in my immediate family do.
Do I wish some black pathologies would go away? Yup! Do they affect me personally? If I am ever faced with serious racism(job discrimination & police racial profiling), then yeah. Thing is, I just don’t have the energy to waste looking at blacks from a racist mindset.
If we are going to talk about black crime, then we should discuss White crime also! Yup, believe it or not their are crimes Euro-Americans commit more than other groups. Of course those are not problems. You know, cuz whites are individuals…
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“Please explain to me how a dirty Black neighborhood is inextricably linked to White racism?”
well, I did explain it in my comment. but I can try to make it more obvious if you’ll make an honest effort to find the connection I’m referring to.
I think black pathology and black shame both have something in common. They are both evidence that black people have bought in to the racist ideas that whites created to justify slavery and segregation. Put simply, BP seem to be almost as racist against themselves as whites are against them.
If a neighborhood is dirty it’s because it’s residents don’t value themselves or their surroundings or for that matter each other. Just as whites believe BP have little value, many BP have come to believe it as well. They have bought into the lie because everyone else has bought into it. That’s the same reason someone would throw their life away over being “disrespected”
In my mind it’s much, much worse than if it was only whites being racist. So the link to white racism is that white’s started it and enforced it and drove it into the minds and hearts of everyone, to the extent that we don’t even have to act on our racism anymore for it to have negative effects.
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@Obsidian
“One such problem is indeed the highschool dropout rate, another is the very high OOW birthrate, and yet another is the high proportion of violent crimes Blacks commit”
Blacks have these problems all up and down the Western hemisphere. The way I look at it is, either something is inherently wrong with Black people or their is something inherently wrong about the societies they live in. I doubt the prevalence of these socio-economic issues are a coincidence. It seems as if similar factors, whether they be sociological or biological, are causing them.
No need to be one-dimensional when discussing these issues when we all know every effect has a cause! 🙂
My question is what are you doing to fix it?
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Black Shame… An often highly misunderstood and overlooked topic. Why?
Because every Black person, wherever they have grown up, in this white supremacist ideological dominated world will have had to contend with this. Of course Black people, being individuals, will respond differently. Heres 3 typical ways:
(1) Some will respond positively – by challenging supremacist/inferiority beliefs and substituting with ones of equality, respect, human dignity, self worth and appreciation.
(2) Others will respond negatively – by “appearing” to challenge supremacist/inferiority beliefs but really accepting their initial premise and calling on other Black people to live up to some assumed standard. – An unchallenged inherited one.
(3) Then some others will respond hype-negatively by fully internalizing the unchallenged concepts of this ideology and insisting other Black people do the same as the only rational choice. Such people will of course deny they are responding positively or negatively. They just are!
These, in my view, are typical but by no means the only type of responses. Unfortunately, throughout Abagond’s blog, Obsidian continually seems to characterize response number (2). “Uncle Ruckus” of the “Boondocks” can be seen in number (3) and of course, I would place myself in number (1)!
@Obsidian. It really is saying something when even Jas0n would appear to have a more positive understanding of Black Shame than yourself.
“… I think black pathology and black shame both have something in common. They are both evidence that black people have bought in to the racist ideas that whites created to justify slavery and segregation. Put simply, BP seem to be almost as racist against themselves as whites are against them…”
Thats the real shame!!!
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@Jas0nburns
Your comments are brilliant!
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Obsidian said it so I can agree with it. If I said it I would be a white racist. Some stereotypes are just stupid and most people understand them as such. Others are useful information and it would be foolish to ignore it. Of course, you have to do it privately and not talk about it because you don’t want to be “racist”.
I feel no guilt at all on behalf of any group. I am responsible for my own actions, not those of others. I accept the criticism you may level at me for what I do or say or write. I reject anyone attempting to blame me for slavery, social security or even the civil rights act of 1964. I had no part in those things. I also reject your ability to claim injury on the basis of things that happened before you were born.
Your other problem here is that trying to stereotype 200 million whites is pointless since they represent a mutlitude of cultures and backgrounds. By contrast, Black americans have only three identifiable cultures: Arfican, African-American, and assimilated black.
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Thanks Cynic. and Kwamla (even though that was a bit backhanded “even jas0n” but i’ll let it slide since I assume you were referring to my whiteness 😉
“Others will respond negatively – by “appearing” to challenge supremacist/inferiority beliefs but really accepting their initial premise and calling on other Black people to live up to some assumed standard. – An unchallenged inherited one.”
You’re saying this is somewhat common? It sounds like purgatory. Like a person wants to get past the internalized racism but can’t quite manage for some reason so they remain stuck in the middle. I know that it’s hard to get over racist conditioning as a WP and so I imagine it’s probably just as hard for BP even though it’s probably a different process.
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Would it were so easy, Professor Hale—that we could simply call for a basin, (like Pontius Pilate) and wash our hands of the historic wrongs of our ancestors.
But if my grandfather murders a man, in order to steal his fortune, then uses that money to open a grocery store, which I later inherit, can I deny that I owe his descendants anything?
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@Professor Hale
Why is their a Professor at the beginning of your name?
“Black americans have only three identifiable cultures: Arfican, African-American, and assimilated black”
-You do realize that their are subcultures w/in those cultures right?
-Are you aware that Africa is not a country, but a continent with billions of people, thousands of languages, and unique cultures?
-You forgot Afro-Caribbean and to a lesser extent Afro-Latino
I reject anyone attempting to blame me for slavery, social security or even the civil rights act of 1964. I had no part in those things.
Sooo… according to your logic I should feel guilt for other people’s actions bc I live in a monolithic group? And you’re exempt from being blamed for things you had no part in bc your in-group is so diverse?
Obsidian said it so I can agree with it. If I said it I would be a white racist.
I don’t understand this logic. I personally believe Obsidian is a racist. I have no idea why him claiming to be Black over the internet excludes him from being considered as such.
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“I don’t understand this logic.”
I know you actually do, it’s quite simple really, white people with a rudimentary or non-existent understanding of racism and it’s effects will often express perceived double standards in this way.
it’s the same as the common: “how come when I say ni**er it’s racist, but when a black guy says it it’s ok” as if there is a basic truth that whites aren’t allowed to express because liberals will jump down their throats for being non-PC.
it’s a kind of self-centered, half-assed engagement that doesn’t involve a lot of critical thinking but does involve a lot self-righteousness.
It kind of puts me to sleep at this point, I was hoping no one would respond to him
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I don’t see why this is just pinned on Blacks ? White and Black people are equally f****d up, if you ask me. Both of them tend blame to each other to boose their crappy self-esteem issues. I seriously don’t care if a black/white person does some stupid s*** because it’s not me. I feel no shame or guilt. I’m more worried if the person was goth or atheist or praticed new age beliefs. I hate when they talk about a goth person that did a crime.
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“Black americans have only three identifiable cultures: Arfican, African-American, and assimilated black”
That’s bs. I grew about around mainly blacks and I wasn’t considered black. I don’t have the culture at all and I don’t have Western African features. I don’t being around other races and don’t see the problem of being multiethnic. People don’t judge you based on other things. You can’t be black and white about it. But just from my view. I don’t believe all whites to be bad and get along with most of them. I don’t mind hanging out with blacks, but alot of them see me as too strange and foriegn. Some of them will make of my accent and ask why I look the way I do. Why do Black have such a hard time dealing black different from them. They want to support the one drop rule and then turn and want to take away someone’ black card when they’re different from you. So, no I don’t believe it’s the same for every black person.
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King, no basin needed. My hands are clean.
Yes you can deny it. There is a reason why there is a statute of limitations in the law. Multi-generational greavances serve no purpose and are counter-productive.
Cynic,
The title professor is a non-de plume. I prefer it to being anonymous. It has no importance other than to identify me.
-You do realize that their are subcultures w/in those cultures right?
Do you really want to split hairs on where to draw the lines between major and minor groups? At the root, every individual is genetically distinct, but that isn’t very useful. I am specifically talking about the major groups in the USA. From an outsiders perspective there is no appreciable difference between how a Nigerian immigrant acts and how an Ivory Coast immigrant acts. But both are distinct from the descendents of American slaves. And those are yet distinctive from the assimilated variety. White immigrants from South Africa and Zimbabwe act nothing like the black people from those countries.
Sooo… according to your logic I should feel guilt for other people’s actions bc I live in a monolithic group?
No. I give you permission to also reject guilt that doesn’t belong to you. I am sure you have enough of your own to worry about without digging up guilt from other people. I exempt myself from group guilt because I do not accept that there can be anything like group guilt. There are plenty of things in my life that I can feel guilty about, but group guilt for any of the groups I belong to… not one little bit.
Obsidian said it…
I don’t care. This is the least important part of the argument. You can call me a racist if you like. I don’t care. That term has no power over me because I recognize that it is meaningless. Most of the people who use it do so as a substitute for “I disagree with you but can’t defend my position”.
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Hi Cynic,
Replies below:
C: I see Obsidian is going to use this post to sh*t all over black people.
O: I see the Cynic is going to use this post to defend his/her reasons as to why he/she rationalizes his/her defensiveness.
C: I gave up black shame a LOOOOONG time ago. I’m sorry, but it is not my responsibility to care about what ppl who are not in my immediate family do.
O: No one said anything about “shame” other than Abagond himself; moreover, if it’s not your “responsibility” to care about others outside your family do, why do you care so much about other people believe or don’t believe? Why does what White folk believe or do not believe, concern you so very much?
C: Do I wish some black pathologies would go away? Yup!
O: I couldn’t tell by the way you DON’T discuss them…
C: Do they affect me personally? If I am ever faced with serious racism(job discrimination & police racial profiling), then yeah. Thing is, I just don’t have the energy to waste looking at blacks from a racist mindset.
O: Is it racist for VSB to say what it did about the once famed Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool, now a cesspool of Black patholigies, including gangrape? Please explain?
C: If we are going to talk about black crime, then we should discuss White crime also! Yup, believe it or not their are crimes Euro-Americans commit more than other groups. Of course those are not problems. You know, cuz whites are individuals…
O: But wait, I thought you weren’t concerned about what others do, Cynic! Now all of a sudden you want us to care and have concern about folks in Europe?!?
Come on. Stop ducking your head in the sand.
O.
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Kwamla, your 3 points summed it up pretty well. I think point 1 is the only option to make a lasting difference.
I admit that I was sometimes guilty of a sentiment that goes even beyond shame. Plain anger. I now realise that it is more out of probably selfish reasons. I remember when Richard Reid, the “shoe bomber”, was busted at the airport. My first reaction was “what a total lunatic” and the second, together with my brothers, was “what an ars*hole, be prepared for some real shyte now”.
After the Reid incident I was held almost two hours in a small interrogation room at Dallas airport and another time an hour at Gatwick under crossfire by some arrogant bastards in suits and tie. My brother had the same “pleasure” at Rome Fiumicino airport. With no utter reason, except for looks I suppose. It’s very likely we weren’t the only ones. Apart from the brownish complexion and frizzy-ish hair, dual French and British passports seemed to make matters worse.
Those who played directly into the hands of brainless stereotypes became the target of my and my brother’s disgruntlement but we later realised that our thoughts were as irrational as any other stereotype. We personally had nothing to be ashamed of or feeling responsible for.
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Cynic,
Replies below:
C: Blacks have these problems all up and down the Western hemisphere.
O: We’re not talking about Black problems “all up and down the Western hemisphere”; we are talking about Black Americans in the USA.
C: The way I look at it is, either something is inherently wrong with Black people or their is something inherently wrong about the societies they live in.
O: Which do you prefer?
C: I doubt the prevalence of these socio-economic issues are a coincidence. It seems as if similar factors, whether they be sociological or biological, are causing them.
O: OK – so again, which do you prefer?
C: No need to be one-dimensional when discussing these issues when we all know every effect has a cause!
O: I am not being one dimensional, please read my initial comment to Abagond again?
C: My question is what are you doing to fix it?
O: LOL, OK, so now in order for us to discuss any problems that might be obtaining in Black America, we must also discuss European crime and pathology, as well as have an action plan to address it right away, huh? Of course, we can go on and on and on about White racism, the White Man, this, that, without having to need any kind of action whatsoever. Nice!
SMH
O.
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Professor Hale makes two excellent points in relation to the Cynic:
1. That if he/she asserts that there is to be no “Black Shame” on his/her part for the actions of what other Blacks do, it then follows that Whites, like Professor Hale, also should bear no such “shame” in kind
And
2. That the Cynic’s labeling of me as a “Black racist” is just a garden variety ad hominem attack, which actually only goes to weaken the legitimacy of the label when it comes to time to apply it to those whom it actually matters and fits
Hmm…
Is there anyone willing to read the excerpt I posted from Very Smart Brothas, see what the blogger has said about present day Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool in Washington DC, a predominantly Black city for easily the better part of a half century, and say that it was “White racism” that turned it from one of the highest performing schools in the country regardless of color, into a cesspool of criminality, depravity, pathology and dysfunction?
Anyone?
Step right up!
O.
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Black shame seems to me to be a common pathology that is used essentially to make certain people feel better about themselves in comparison, whether that’s due to feeling they’re an exception, or feeling the other person exemplifies what’s “wrong” with the Black community is probably up for debate.
Honestly, people who feel the need to criticize their own communities for structural problems tend to be arrogant, ignorant individuals, who probably have a healthy dose of internalized racism that manifests itself as outward displays of disgust and condemnation.
But, at the same time, I don’t feel we (as in members of the Black community, or any community) shouldn’t feel that by criticizing a common problem among the community, that somehow we are betraying the cause, and giving others with less-than-noble intentions ammunition against us.
The problem is that places like BET, and people like Aaron McGruder use Black shame to make money, and inadvertently appease White racism. (Which is sad, because I personally like The Boondocks.)
It’s a tricky balance, and that’s something Black people are going to have to decide for themselves, because while Whites — by and large — are likely to believe the worst of Black people (and other People of Color), it appears that many Black people are often likely to believe the worst about Black people too. (i.e. Obsidian, Aaron McGruder, and all those YouTube channels that Blaque Ink noted.) And if enough Black people go around throwing their communities under the bus, while other Black people go around giving their communities a free-pass on BS, the problems of White racism are probably going to multiple. Which is sad, because Black people shouldn’t have to be personally responsible for preventing racism by policing their communities.
So, yeah… Iunno. Hopefully Kwamla’s approach will prevail over Professor Hale’s.
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Thanks for the credit.
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Obsidian asked: “Please explain to me how a dirty Black neighborhood is inextricably linked to White racism?”
jas0nburns replied: “I think black pathology and black shame both have something in common. They are both evidence that black people have bought in to the racist ideas that whites created to justify slavery and segregation. Put simply, BP seem to be almost as racist against themselves as whites are against them.”
Oh good, so it’s really not their fault after all. Glad to hear it.
Jas0n, what about dirty white, hispanic, and chinese neighborhoods? Who do we blame for those?
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Ahh, here comes Zekie.
OK, so lemme get this straight: Aaron Macgruder is essentially hatin’ on his own race because he happened to make a very thought provoking series called the Boondocks? And of course, I’m full of self-hate because I merely ask that we be intellectually honest and evenhanded in our approach to race and related issues. Gotcha.
I see that Ad Hominem is alive and well today – but with Zekie, would we expect anything less?
Your style is weak and sloppy, son. More work do you need.
O.
PS: LOL@ RG’s response to Jason
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Obsidian,
With all due respect, why are you worrying about what Abagond writes or doesn’t write in regards to the issues your passionate about, when I checked your blog, and I haven’t found one entry regarding any of the pathologies you mentioned?
I also wonder what you’re doing about such problems, seeing as how they are important to you, other than worrying about if other bloggers are writing about it?
I’m just curious, and if I’m wrong, let me know.
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Randy,
I’d imagine the city politicians who don’t allocate enough resources to keeping those communities clean as they do for keeping the upper-class, mostly White communities clean. Those would be the first people I’d blame.
Blaming a person who’s making minimum-wage and living in a high-crime area for the state of their community is like blaming a victim of prison-rape for committing the petty theft that leads to him being incarcerated and raped. It might seem linked, but in reality it’s not.
Another good example is that we don’t blame survivors of genocide for being psychologically disturbed and having trouble integrating into mainstream society. We don’t blame soldiers for their PTSD, do we? (Well, actually we do, in a way, but I digress…)
I think Jason has some pretty valid points that didn’t really get addressed, namely why White people address the wrong double-standard when they get upset about racism. They get mad when people stereotype Whites, but rarely seem to criticize each other when they stereotype People of Color. They get confused about why they can’t use the N-word (and why do they want to in the first place!?) but never question why most White communities are getting better treatment by the city/state/whatever than most minority communities.
Which are some very troubling things to consider…
Also, when you say “chinese” do you mean JUST “chinese” or were you using it as a very bad synonym for Asian people?
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Obsidian,
You do realize I wasn’t talking to you, yeah? But that’s okay, I know you enjoy the attention.
a very thought provoking series
Calling Tyler Perry out for his cliched, stereotyped productions is all well and good, but engaging in homophobia to do it is kind of effed-up. Aaron McGruder uses Black shame much more in his 3rd series than he did in his 1st. And that’s indicative that he’s run out of insight in this regard.
But our personal feelings about Aaron McGruder aside, are you going to deny that internalized racism, and self-hate exist among the Black community? Because there have been — literally — shelves full of books written on the subject and why it’s so prevalent. I think Cornel West’s take is my favorite; read The Politics of Redemption.
And of course, I’m full of self-hate
Point to me where I said, directly, that you are full of self-hate? At best, I made an inferred connection between you and people that tend to believe the worst about Black people. You’re getting so touchy in your old age Obs ; )
But, of course, YOUR ad hominem is perfectly legitimate to my nonexistent one, right? That’s funny, because you didn’t even notice the place where I actually agreed with you: “we … shouldn’t feel that by criticizing a common problem among the community, that somehow we are betraying the cause.” (I’ll admit, I accidentally used a double negative in my original comment, haha.)
Anyhoo, keep on keeping on oldster! Don’t break a hip while you’re tripping =)
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Hi Blaque Ink,
Replies below:
BI: With all due respect, why are you worrying about what Abagond writes or doesn’t write in regards to the issues your passionate about, when I checked your blog, and I haven’t found one entry regarding any of the pathologies you mentioned?
O: With all due respect, must I write on the very things I am asking Abagond about in order for it to be considered? Please tell me when that Congressional law was passed? Here, I have a better question: why are you and others here so worried about what White folks say or don’t say? Why does that make such a huge difference to you?
BI: I also wonder what you’re doing about such problems, seeing as how they are important to you, other than worrying about if other bloggers are writing about it?
O: I am doing the very same thing Abagond and others who spend prodigious amounts of time and bandwith discussing what White folk think or don’t think about Black folk – I am talking about it. That’s what I’m doing. And if that isn’t enough, then what you and company are doing wrt White folks, ain’t enough either. Leaders lead from the front.
BI: I’m just curious, and if I’m wrong, let me know.
O: Curiousity is good…
O.
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Hi Zekie,
Replies below:
Z: Obsidian,
You do realize I wasn’t talking to you, yeah? But that’s okay, I know you enjoy the attention.
O: When you mention my name? Of course. But then, you love saying my name, dontcha? #saymyname
Z: Calling Tyler Perry out for his cliched, stereotyped productions is all well and good, but engaging in homophobia to do it is kind of effed-up. Aaron McGruder uses Black shame much more in his 3rd series than he did in his 1st. And that’s indicative that he’s run out of insight in this regard.
O: And now you want to inject Tyler Perry into the discussion? Do you really want to have a discussion about Mr. Perry, Zekie? Because I have some interesting facts for you about him that will get your panties all up in a bunch. Let’s stay focused on your other red herring, shall we? McGruder made some powerful points in his episode on MLK. Do you agree or disagree, and why, Mr. Save The Negro White Liberal?
Z: But our personal feelings about Aaron McGruder aside, are you going to deny that internalized racism, and self-hate exist among the Black community? Because there have been — literally — shelves full of books written on the subject and why it’s so prevalent. I think Cornel West’s take is my favorite; read The Politics of Redemption.
O: I am very familiar with West’s works, probably moreso than you are of McGruder’s. I am interested in the open discussion of Black problems for a number of reasons, chief among them to remove the notion that Black folk don’t have any agency in their lives. Take your BS excuse as to my question to Jason earlier, which had to do with Black folks having dirty neighborhoods. There is nothing stopping anyone from NOT throwing trash around, littering, and sweeping out in front of their stoop – Black folk did this on the regular at a time when they couldn’t even vote, much less petition their city councilman for increased trash pickup, so spare me the BS excuses. That has nothing to do with “White racism” and everything to do with a real breakdown in Black familial life, and that is something Black folks have to take on, WITHOUT ANY RECOURSE TO WHITE FOLK. Just clean up and stop being a slob. Period.
Z: Point to me where I said, directly, that you are full of self-hate? At best, I made an inferred connection between you and people that tend to believe the worst about Black people. You’re getting so touchy in your old age Obs ; )
O: Nah, just getting a rectal itch from your piss poor debating style. Please do not give up your day job. Anyway, no, you didn’t say word for word what I noted about myself and McGruder, but it was clear this is what you meant, that somehow, ANYONE who is Black and criticizes Black folks, must have something wrong with them. It is the height of immaturity and infantilism NOT to be self-critical. Which explains quite a bit when we examine you and some others in this august forum…
Z: But, of course, YOUR ad hominem is perfectly legitimate to my nonexistent one, right? That’s funny, because you didn’t even notice the place where I actually agreed with you: “we … shouldn’t feel that by criticizing a common problem among the community, that somehow we are betraying the cause.” (I’ll admit, I accidentally used a double negative in my original comment, haha.)
O: You attacked McGruder but not the point he was making with his MLK episode of the Boondocks. This is what you normally do though, attack the person and not the position or point they are making. It is the sign of rather unevolved mind, haha.
Z: Anyhoo, keep on keeping on oldster! Don’t break a hip while you’re tripping =)
O: “Oldster”? Is that all you got, young’un? They sure don’t make em like they used to…
O.
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@Prof Hale
Do you really want to split hairs on where to draw the lines between major and minor groups?
I mean if we’re going to sit here and do it for the “multitude” of different white people in the US….
From an outsiders perspective there is no appreciable difference between how a Nigerian immigrant acts and how an Ivory Coast immigrant acts.
Yeah, just like for most Americans their is no appreciable difference between a continental Nigerian and someone living in the Ivory Coast. I guess that means it must be true(sarcasm).
Obsidian said it… I don’t care.
1)I didn’t ask you to care.
2)Calling you are racist wasn’t apart of my argument. My argument was that Obsidian’s words are no excuse 4 urs.
3)Stereotyping races is what I call racist. Trust me, you can get through life without doing it.
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@Obsidian
Just bc I name dropped you in my first comment does not mean it was directed towards you. I thought I would put that out there and go ahead ignore your comments about it instead of wasting my time. Except 4 this:
O: But wait, I thought you weren’t concerned about what others do, Cynic! Now all of a sudden you want us to care and have concern about folks in Europe?!?
I said Euro-AMERICANS. As in the European descendants in America. White people. White Americans
_____________
@O
“O: We’re not talking about Black problems “all up and down the Western hemisphere”
Looking at the problems they both have, we might as well.
C: I doubt the prevalence of these socio-economic issues are a coincidence. It seems as if similar factors, whether they be sociological or biological, are causing them.
From the information that I have gathered I would say environmental/sociological.
O: I am not being one dimensional, please read my initial comment to Abagond again?
I’ll give you that. However, I’m curious. Why do you think discussing “black pathologies” in front of whites will make a difference? Do they have magical powers to make them change? Do you honestly believe they want to see them go away? Personally, I agree w/ Abagond that many of them need to look down on blacks to maintain their self-worth. You don’t think they are already aware of these issues? If not, why do so many of them look down on blacks, if not for those pathologies?
“that the Cynic’s labeling of me as a “Black racist” is just a garden variety ad hominem attack”
Whoa there! Hold on a minute!!!
1)I was not in a debate with you when I said I believe that you are racist, so it cannot be said I was using a logically fallacy.
2)How is calling you a racist attacking you? Just so you know, I was doing no such thing.
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@Prof Hale
Black americans have only three identifiable cultures… and assimilated black.
Assimilated Black? Assimilated into what? White American culture???
I guess you don’t believe in the “diverse multitudes of white ppl in the USA” excuse you pulled when explaining why stereotyping them is different than when you do it to Blacks.
How can they be assimilate into a group when it’s too damn diverse to even be labeled one w/in a sociological context?
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Hi Cynic,
Replies below:
C: Looking at the problems they both have, we might as well.
O: Why? You have a very nasty habit of wanting to bring everything but the kitchen sink anytime we are to examine with a critical eye, African Americans. Stop being so very defensive. It doesn’t diminish Black folks to get their own house in order, nor does it mean that racism isn’t a cause for concern. It is possible to do both at the same time.
@Obsidian
Just bc I name dropped you in my first comment does not mean it was directed towards you. I thought I would put that out there and go ahead ignore your comments about it instead of wasting my time. Except 4 this:
O: Then why refer to me at all? Clearly you “name dropped” because you wanted to make a point by putting my name on it. It suggests to me that your point couldn’t be that strong, otherwise you wouldn’t need me in order to make it. Very sharp debating style you have! You should form up a tag team with Zekie.
C: I said Euro-AMERICANS. As in the European descendants in America. White people. White Americans
O: OK – but again, SO WHAT? What does what Bernie Madoff have to do with Black crime? So, it makes the latter OK if the former engages in criminality too? How about we address that which puts both of us at risk – which is Black crime? Why can’t we focus on that? Why must we be so very infantile about all this? What is up with that?
C: From the information that I have gathered I would say environmental/sociological.
O: OK, great – so, why is it we are avoiding discussing this again?
C: I’ll give you that. However, I’m curious. Why do you think discussing “black pathologies” in front of whites will make a difference?
O: Why do you think not discussing them at all will make them go away?
C: Do they have magical powers to make them change?
O: Does ignoring them?
C: Do you honestly believe they want to see them go away?
O: What they do or don’t want is irrelevant.
C: Personally, I agree w/ Abagond that many of them need to look down on blacks to maintain their self-worth. You don’t think they are already aware of these issues? If not, why do so many of them look down on blacks, if not for those pathologies?
O: That’s just it – I am not concerned in the least with what White folks think or don’t think of me or Black folk in general. I am concerned with Black folk getting their own act together. Big difference.
“that the Cynic’s labeling of me as a “Black racist” is just a garden variety ad hominem attack”
C: Whoa there! Hold on a minute!!!
O: OK.
1)I was not in a debate with you when I said I believe that you are racist, so it cannot be said I was using a logically fallacy.
O: This is true; we were not in a formal “debate”. Nevertheless, you made a claim that was fallacious. You attacked me instead of my position, and by definition, would fall under the term Ad Hominem. a logical fallacy.
2)How is calling you a racist attacking you? Just so you know, I was doing no such thing.
O: I beg to differ: “I personally believe Obsidian is a racist.” These were your words: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/03/18/black-shame/#comment-82892
J’accuse, Cynic!
Holla back – this time, you can address yourself to the Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool, and how its devolution is due entirely to White system racial oppression…?
O.
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“Oh good, so it’s really not their fault after all. Glad to hear it.
Jas0n, what about dirty white, hispanic, and chinese neighborhoods? Who do we blame for those?”
that is funny. What’s really funny to me is that you think it’s all about fixing blame. At this point I just don’t think it matters who’s fault it is. Nobody who got the racism ball rolling is alive today. What we have today is a bunch of people who inherited it. White people need to make a lot of changes in our behavior towards blacks. Black people need to make a lot of changes in their behavior towards themselves and each other. We are the ones who decide whether to keep the ball rolling or not. And if we keep it rolling we are the ones who will suffer. That’s all there is. If you’re trying to affix blame you might as well pin a tail on your a** and start chasing it because that’s about as effective as you’re ever going to be no matter what color you are.
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^^^ in case it wasn’t clear “we” means everyone.
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First of all, I do not belive that this “professor” is professor at all. I think he is one of those HBDers or their buddy. 😀
About dirty inner city neighbourhoods: anyone who has read any history of US history knows how these came about. Anybody who has read any history of organized crime understands how the black ghettoes became as they are today. I think what we see here in this discussion is one of the major problems of american education system 😀 no sense of history at all.
Big US organized crime has always been white. I’m not only talking about Cosa Nostra here. I’m talking about the political Machines in different cities from Albany NY to LA. I’m talking about Tammany Hall and its kind. I’m talking about big business, big money, big politics and yes, big time criminals. Kennedys among them.
Joseph Kennedy was extortionist back in 1920’s in West Coast and in cahoots with several organized criminals in bootlegging, Frank Costello among them. In the most narrowest presidential election of the last century Old Man Joseph asked the Mob to use its political clout on behalf of his son. And they did and the son was elected, with very few votes.
After WW2 the political machines and majority of whites did give a hoot about drug problem as long as it was contained in black neighbourhoods. Cosa Nostra operated freely in this business. Think about Harlem. What happened to Harlem renesance? One Cosa Nostra crew was selling heroin into that area whole sale for decades and who belives that cops did not know about it? They operated openly. Everybody knew them. And even after the goverment started to do something about it, they went on for couple more decades.
Malcolm X knew this and spoke about it. So did Martin Luther King. They were both murdered. Both cases have some leads that could have taken the investigators to the organized crime groups with their political connections and connections to the political Machines.
The explotion in Newark in 60’s was very much sparked from the fact that Mob controlled mayor and city goverment had pushed the blacks too far. Blacks in Newark had nowhere to go, no means to advance, no way to better themselves. Any money that could have been used to fix social problems in black neighbourhoods was looted and stolen. Blacks had to pay in order to get jobs controlled by these powerful white men. Then came the time when black people just had enough…
But notice: even after the riots and chaos, no money was dorected to better those neighbourhoods. Why? Because no white elite have a shit about that.
Look at Detroit. The big businesses raped that city. They took what they wanted and dumped the city once they were done. It looks like a war zone and nearly became one too. Might become one still.
It is not an accident or black genes that made those neighbourhoods. It is not that black kid who throws his ice cream wrapper to the street who did it. It is the Machine, the System.
Read Robert Savianos excellent book Gomorrah. It tells about napolitan mafia Camorra and its influence. They actually call camorra over there as the System and the results are excately same as in USA. Devastating poverty, slums, terrible drug problems, violence, everything you find in any US big city slum. Maybe even worse.
Same thing happened in Sicily. In Agrigento the death rate among the newly born is the same as in poorest African countries. They have whole neighbourhoods without electricity and plumming, without windows and any other stuff.
The same thing happens anywhere where the chinese organized crime is powerful enough to form an alliance woth the political powers. Look what happens in Ciudad Juarez, just across the border. In Mexico the Machine is one organized crime group. The federal police, army, and local law enforcement agencies are just some organized crime groups wying for power and money. Los Zetas and drug cartels are the same. And you see the results.
It is very naive and childish to explain the black ghettoes as a result of black occupants. The desperation and opression that goes on is not by the people. It is not accidental. It is going on because some very powerful elites wish so.
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“Assimilated Black? Assimilated into what? White American culture???
I guess you don’t believe in the “diverse multitudes of white ppl in the USA” excuse you pulled when explaining why stereotyping them is different than when you do it to Blacks.
How can they be assimilate into a group when it’s too damn diverse to even be labeled one w/in a sociological context?”
Co-signed. It’s racist and is only helping racist whites (all blacks are the same) and blacks with low self-esteem.
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Zek said, “I’d imagine the city politicians who don’t allocate enough resources to keeping those communities clean as they do for keeping the upper-class, mostly White communities clean. Those would be the first people I’d blame.”
I live in a peaceful and boring middle class neighborhood, and nobody cleans up for us. I think that if you truly want to treat people in a race-neutral fashion, then you must do so without caveats.
“Blaming a person who’s making minimum-wage and living in a high-crime area for the state of their community is like blaming a victim of prison-rape for committing the petty theft that leads to him being incarcerated and raped. It might seem linked, but in reality it’s not.
Another good example is that we don’t blame survivors of genocide for being psychologically disturbed and having trouble integrating into mainstream society. We don’t blame soldiers for their PTSD, do we? (Well, actually we do, in a way, but I digress…)”
Genocide? That’s a bit rich, don’t you think? There are plenty of dirty neighborhoods of all ethnic compositions. Does each group warrant its own excuse for living in a self-made pig sty?
“Also, when you say “chinese” do you mean JUST “chinese” or were you using it as a very bad synonym for Asian people?”
I was thinking of Chinatown in SF in particular.
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randy. do you understand cause and effect? did you know that a persons environment has a great deal of influence on their destiny?
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Interesting post. When I think of black shame, I usually think about how it factors in our interpersonal relationships. As children, we quickly learn that it can be a tool used by whites and other non-blacks to tease and bully blacks; the race card is a trump card in schoolyard tiffs. Shame can also lead some of them to avoid others of the same race, whether as friends or romantic partners. Shame (in general, not just black shame) is a very important condition in psychology.
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Sneil,
How does what you noted wrt school kids jibe with the fact that Black boys are among if not the most suspended and disciplined in schools for usually violent behaviors such as fighting, etc? Please explain?
O.
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jas0nburns said “that is funny. What’s really funny to me is that you think it’s all about fixing blame.”
Actually, I don’t care about affixing blame. Thank you for helping to correct that poorly constructed thought. Allow me to rephrase: “Who is going to clean up the dirty neighborhoods?”
“randy. do you understand cause and effect? did you know that a persons environment has a great deal of influence on their destiny?”
Indeed I do, Jas0n. That is why I would not shackle anyone with the disempowering chains of race-based lowered expectations.
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Obsidian,
This is a rare moment, so I want to cherish it.
Anyway, no, you didn’t say word for word what I noted about myself and McGruder, but it was clear this is what you meant
Hahaha! So after all your hewing and hawing, we finally come to the point where I get to enjoy probably one of the ONLY times you’ll ever admit to being wrong about, well… anything. Mostly because you can’t invent a comment I didn’t make, though you seem to be as wily as a literary critic attempting to push your interpretations onto me ; )
If I didn’t say it, then you shouldn’t make the assumption you know what I meant. Unless you want to play that game… Even though it ends with making an a** out of U and Umption.
But anyways, the actual point is that you’re overly critical of the Black community without taking into account structural White racism. And that’s fine, but it’s also ignorant.
Meanwhile, you completely dodged Blaque Ink’s question as to WHY you’re not writing these posts yourself. Instead of asking everyone here at Abagond’s place to do so, why do you take up the cause? You seem upset and condescending at us for talking about things you find important, but then when Blaque Ink suggest you take up these issues yourself, you attempt to twist out of it by saying he/we shouldn’t tell you what to do.
The problem is: you consistently come here and do that to us. You consistently come over here, hijack the topic thread, and say we’re all spending our time on the unimportant/wrong things, yet you get your undies in a bunch when someone dares suggest you write about these things if they’re so important to you. It’s classic intellectual cowardice.
And it’d be funny if it weren’t so pathological.
Anyways, with regard to Aaron McGruder, I agree that he made some good points with his MLK episode, but one episode does not a series make. His work has gone downhill in insight since that first season, and this is because he’s devolved into Black shame. Which makes him less of a red herring and more of a pertinent point: people who make money off of criticizing their communities are hypocrites. (Especially when the person IS Black.)
A good example of the opposite of this would be Dave Chappelle canceling his show because it reinforced negative stereotypes about Black people.
If you disagree, feel free to, but it doesn’t change the script — only your part in it.
So, again, read for comprehension because I actually believe being self-critical, especially among our communities, is important, yet I see a tricky balance between constructive criticism, and just plain negativity, which is a subtlety you seem to miss.
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“Who is going to clean up the dirty neighborhoods?”
I think a better question is how can we make some changes to our society so that we can stop churning out broken individuals in ever increasing numbers. How do we protect the psyches of our children so that they can grow into functional adults and better parents? Then god willing you won’t have to see so many unmowed lawns.
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Randy,
What do you call the garbage truck? Construction crews? The maintenance of all those power-lines, roads, sewage pipes, and other public works? Do you clean those all by yourself, haha?
I too lived in the burbs, grew up there, and comparing a suburb to a lower-class neighborhood shows a lot of inconsistencies if you have the diligence to look around at so many things we take for granted.
You can’t really control people, especially since this is supposed to be a free-country, but I digress… Race-neutral doesn’t exist in America, and pretending that racism doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it goes away like the boogey-man.
But you’re right, there are plenty of rundown ethnic communities, and blaming the people at large seems to be a bit generalizing and stereotyping, no matter how tempting it may be because of its simplicity. Blaming Black people for their own misfortune is victim-blaming at it’s worst. Sure, individuals certainly act to ruin themselves, but when talking about large groups of people, you need to talk about large forces, and that means structural ones.
Funny you mention Chinatown in SF, because I’ve been there many times. It’s not really that dirty — certainly not anymore than SoMa or Pac-Heights, and I’m not talking about the touristy areas of Chinatown, but the back alleys and multiple-family homes. However, Chinatown is a VERY small area, and breaking it up to talk about the dirtiness means going block by block, which means you’ll have to be more specific than your original comment.
Basically Randy you’re committing the same sort of fallacy that Obsidian, and others make: ignoring the forest for the trees.
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@Obsidian
I’m not in the mood for extremely long comments right now, so I’ll answer a couple and then come back for the rest.
O: You have a very nasty habit of wanting to bring everything but the kitchen sink anytime we are to examine with a critical eye, African Americans.
No, I don’t. You do know what the meaning of the word both, right?
O: Then why refer to me at all? Clearly you “name dropped” because you wanted to make a point by putting my name on it. It suggests to me that your point couldn’t be that strong, otherwise you wouldn’t need me in order to make it. Very sharp debating style you have! You should form up a tag team with Zekie.
Why not do it? Btw, you pick apart the most random unimportant things in your argument. Could you please stop? It’s kind of annoying having to filter through the dirt and the gems in your comments. Nvm the fact that it makes them extra long
O: OK, great – so, why is it we are avoiding discussing this again?
How are we avoiding them? Ppl talk about these things ALLLLLLL the time.
2)How is calling you a racist attacking you? Just so you know, I was doing no such thing.
O: I beg to differ: “I personally believe Obsidian is a racist.” These were your words
Uhhhh… I nv said I didn’t call you a racist. I said that I wasn’t attacking you by doing so.
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I don’t know about anyone else but I am having real difficulty understanding what your trying to communicate here Obsidian. You allow yourself to get caught up in, what seems to me to be, needless, childish, petty, egotistical arguments all the time trying to pretend your the only one with a real insight into what we (Black people) should be discussing. – Black Pathologies?
Again. I think its useful to point out to you again that Jas0nburns, and now ZeK ,appear to have a far better comprehension of the complexities and subtleties of Black Shame or Black pathologies in the context a racist white society than yourself.
Which is why Zek can say:
“…But anyways, the actual point is that you’re overly critical of the Black community without taking into account structural White racism. And that’s fine, but it’s also ignorant…
Which I would have to agree with. And why the Cynic might label you as a racist.
(I would prefer my characterization of number (2) from my last comment)
You seem to believe you can separate the two. This is self delusion on your part on. They are both inextricably linked. I also predict this is likely to result in Randy Garver agreeing with most of what you say.
Would that be a fair comment to make Randy?
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hi Zekie,
Replies below:
Z: But anyways, the actual point is that you’re overly critical of the Black community without taking into account structural White racism. And that’s fine, but it’s also ignorant.
O: No, it isn’t ignorant, because I am quite familiar with the history of White racism and its impact on Black society; I just refuse to let it shackle Black folks and remove any agency for changing their lives for the better.
Z: Meanwhile, you completely dodged Blaque Ink’s question as to WHY you’re not writing these posts yourself.
O: I ddi no such thing, I answered him directly; why must I do so in order to pose such questions in this forum? Does doing one or the other make the questions more or less legitimate, and if so, how and why?
Z: Instead of asking everyone here at Abagond’s place to do so, why do you take up the cause?
O: Because, aside from the fact that my original blog took up racial issues quite often, I want to know why it is Abagond and bloggers like him refuse to be evenhanded. That’s why.
Z: You seem upset and condescending at us for talking about things you find important, but then when Blaque Ink suggest you take up these issues yourself, you attempt to twist out of it by saying he/we shouldn’t tell you what to do.
O: No, I merely responded by asking why must I discuss these issues first in order to ask about them here. If anyone is “twisting” here it is Blaque Ink and his ilk. Either the question is legitimate and can be dealt with on its own merits, or it is not.
Z: The problem is: you consistently come here and do that to us. You consistently come over here, hijack the topic thread, and say we’re all spending our time on the unimportant/wrong things, yet you get your undies in a bunch when someone dares suggest you write about these things if they’re so important to you. It’s classic intellectual cowardice.
And it’d be funny if it weren’t so pathological.
O: The little problem with that point of view is, that I routinely discuss Black issues on my blog, especially its original version. That you say what you just did, just goes to show how ignorant you in fact, are, young Man.
Secondly, I have no problem discussing racism. What I have a problem with is the lopsidedness of focusing ONLY on that, when if we’re to be honest, there are things that Black folks do to themselves that rivals any racism foisted on them and in some instances far exceeds it. That Abagond or his readers, or you, refuses to deal with this fact honestly, is a source of endless fascination for me, and I like to point it out because among other things, I can.
Z: Anyways, with regard to Aaron McGruder, I agree that he made some good points with his MLK episode, but one episode does not a series make.
O: OK, so let’s deal with the episode before we go to attempting to deal with the entire series – fair enough? I say that his MLK episode was masterfully done (and by far wasn’t the only one – his R.Kelly episode is another masterpiece), where clearly there was dumb stuff Black folk were doing to each other that needed to be addressed and he did that. That doesn’t make him damaged goods for doing so; it makes him a mature adult.
Z: His work has gone downhill in insight since that first season, and this is because he’s devolved into Black shame. Which makes him less of a red herring and more of a pertinent point: people who make money off of criticizing their communities are hypocrites. (Especially when the person IS Black.)
O: That’s a matter of opinion, but before we go there, let’s take this one step at a time…
Z: A good example of the opposite of this would be Dave Chappelle canceling his show because it reinforced negative stereotypes about Black people.
If you disagree, feel free to, but it doesn’t change the script — only your part in it.
O: Yawn…
Z: So, again, read for comprehension because I actually believe being self-critical, especially among our communities, is important, yet I see a tricky balance between constructive criticism, and just plain negativity, which is a subtlety you seem to miss.
O: No, I am very evenhanded in my writings; you on the other hand, which is right here in this very thread, seem to want to do everything BUT hold Black folk accountable for at least some of the problems in their own lives. Nor have you given any evidence that you are as evenhanded in your writings in this forum at least.
More to learn, you have, young one…
O.
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I must say I am also a bit confused. People talk about how “bad” Blacks are all of the time. I see negative things about my race online in several forums EVERYDAY(including the black ones). The statistics are in the newspapers, textbooks, television. Idk why he thinks ppl aren’t having this discussion. Or maybe he’s JUST talking about Abagond alone?
@Obsidian
What do you want us to talk about exactly? Are you aggravated bc you believe our society(or are you solely talking about this blog?) doesn’t pay enough attn to black pathologies? Do you want us to pay less attn to racism and more to the faults of black ppl?
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Hi Cynic,
Replies below:
C: @Obsidian
I’m not in the mood for extremely long comments right now, so I’ll answer a couple and then come back for the rest.
O: OK…
O: You have a very nasty habit of wanting to bring everything but the kitchen sink anytime we are to examine with a critical eye, African Americans.
No, I don’t. You do know what the meaning of the word both, right?
O: Yes. But I want you to FOCUS, Cynic. We are discussing African Americans. Now, try again…
O: Then why refer to me at all? Clearly you “name dropped” because you wanted to make a point by putting my name on it. It suggests to me that your point couldn’t be that strong, otherwise you wouldn’t need me in order to make it. Very sharp debating style you have! You should form up a tag team with Zekie.
Why not do it? Btw, you pick apart the most random unimportant things in your argument. Could you please stop? It’s kind of annoying having to filter through the dirt and the gems in your comments. Nvm the fact that it makes them extra long
O: I like to be as precise as I can in these discussions. Very easy to misinterpret what is going on here.
O: OK, great – so, why is it we are avoiding discussing this again?
C: How are we avoiding them? Ppl talk about these things ALLLLLLL the time.
O: Not here, they don’t – and that is the problem.
2)How is calling you a racist attacking you? Just so you know, I was doing no such thing.
O: I beg to differ: “I personally believe Obsidian is a racist.” These were your words
Uhhhh… I nv said I didn’t call you a racist. I said that I wasn’t attacking you by doing so.
O: But that’s just it Cynic – by calling me a racist, YOU ARE attacking me. It is designed to dismiss what I am saying; I want you to grapple with the argument. Let’s try this again:
Please explain to me the pernicious White system institutional racism at work that has transformed the famed Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool in Washington DC from one of the nation’s highest performing schools regardless of color and at a time when Jim Crow was very much a reality for the nation’s African Americans, to one where depravity, violence and dysfunction are the order of the day?
Your response?
O.
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Hi Cynic,
Replies below:
C: I must say I am also a bit confused. People talk about how “bad” Blacks are all of the time. I see negative things about my race online in several forums EVERYDAY(including the black ones). The statistics are in the newspapers, textbooks, television. Idk why he thinks ppl aren’t having this discussion. Or maybe he’s JUST talking about Abagond alone?
O: What major Black bloggers are discussing these things? Can you give us some names, please? Thanks.
C: @Obsidian
What do you want us to talk about exactly? Are you aggravated bc you believe our society(or are you solely talking about this blog?) doesn’t pay enough attn to black pathologies? Do you want us to pay less attn to racism and more to the faults of black ppl?
O: I am saying that there is room to do both. The problem though, is the focus is lopsided. It needs to be corrected, because that is a more accurate reflection of reality.
O.
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The following statement that was originally my question to Jason earlier in this thread, is being repeated for Zekie, Kwamla, Sam, the Cynic and anyone else who wants to actually answer the question honestly:
“I am interested in the open discussion of Black problems for a number of reasons, chief among them to remove the notion that Black folk don’t have any agency in their lives. Take your BS excuse as to my question to Jason earlier, which had to do with Black folks having dirty neighborhoods. There is nothing stopping anyone from NOT throwing trash around, littering, and sweeping out in front of their stoop – Black folk did this on the regular at a time when they couldn’t even vote, much less petition their city councilman for increased trash pickup, so spare me the BS excuses. That has nothing to do with “White racism” and everything to do with a real breakdown in Black familial life, and that is something Black folks have to take on, WITHOUT ANY RECOURSE TO WHITE FOLK. Just clean up and stop being a slob. Period.”
Comments?
O.
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Response to Obsidian’s responses:
“BI: With all due respect, why are you worrying about what Abagond writes or doesn’t write in regards to the issues your passionate about, when I checked your blog, and I haven’t found one entry regarding any of the pathologies you mentioned?
O: With all due respect, must I write on the very things I am asking Abagond about in order for it to be considered? Please tell me when that Congressional law was passed? Here, I have a better question: why are you and others here so worried about what White folks say or don’t say? Why does that make such a huge difference to you?”
It seems strange that you constantly in one post of another urge Abagond to address the issues you have concerning the black community when you, yourself, haven’t in your own blog. Don’t you think?
I have an even better question for you, why are you worrying so much about what we think and blog about?
“BI: I also wonder what you’re doing about such problems, seeing as how they are important to you, other than worrying about if other bloggers are writing about it?
O: I am doing the very same thing Abagond and others who spend prodigious amounts of time and bandwith discussing what White folk think or don’t think about Black folk – I am talking about it. That’s what I’m doing. And if that isn’t enough, then what you and company are doing wrt White folks, ain’t enough either. Leaders lead from the front.”
Talking is good, but actually doing something about it that’s proactive, even if it’s just a little, is even better.
“BI: I’m just curious, and if I’m wrong, let me know.
O: Curiousity is good…”
Indeed it is.
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@Obsidian “Comments?”
Black folks have dirty neighborhoods??? Lol
What state or region of the country do you live Obsidian? I live in a majority black neighborhood(city really) and the neighborhoods here are perfectly fine. My aunt lives in NY and her majority black neighborhood doesn’t look dirty either. Sorry, but what you are seeing is not my life.
I do agree that their has been a breakdown in Black familial life. I always felt that this fact was well understood by both Blacks and Whites. Do you think talking about it on blogs will help?
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Hi Blaque Ink,
Replies below:
BI: It seems strange that you constantly in one post of another urge Abagond to address the issues you have concerning the black community when you, yourself, haven’t in your own blog. Don’t you think?
O: No, I don’t, primarily because I have and continue to address Black issues on my own blog. I don’t find “go to your own blog” or “write about these things yourself” to be legitimate “defenses” as to why Abagond and other Black bloggers are so very lopsided here. Why is he? Why can’t he take up both/and, instead of persisting in an either/or? That’s what I do.
BI: I have an even better question for you, why are you worrying so much about what we think and blog about?
O: I asked you first, LOL. You tell me why you all are so worried about what White folks think, and I’ll be more than happy to answer your questions.
BI: Talking is good, but actually doing something about it that’s proactive, even if it’s just a little, is even better.
O: Then what are you who are so concerned about racism doing about it? Are you forming a Congressional lobby? Organizing protests? What?
Why all this avoidance of merely discussing, of merely giving voice to, problems in the Black community like that which obtains at Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool? What is up with that?
O.
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How many white people are ashamed of what happened to the Native Americans?
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@Obsidian
“O: What major Black bloggers are discussing these things? Can you give us some names, please? Thanks.”
I don’t visit many black blogs and most of the blogs I visit are not about American society. Most black ppl don’t read blogs, so I don’t see why it matters.
“O: I am saying that there is room to do both. The problem though, is the focus is lopsided. It needs to be corrected, because that is a more accurate reflection of reality.”
I feel their is room for both also, but again, I do not see what you are talking about. To me, the conversations Americans have about race tend lean towards the “blacks are effed up” argument and play down the racism part. This is what I mostly see in the media. It seems as if the majority of the populace just takes in the negative statistics and images of blacks w/o asking, “how did it get this way?”
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jas0nburns said: “I think a better question is how can we make some changes to our society so that we can stop churning out broken individuals in ever increasing numbers. How do we protect the psyches of our children so that they can grow into functional adults and better parents? Then god willing you won’t have to see so many unmowed lawns.”
That’s a lovely thought almost too precious for words, but so idealistic as to be practically useless. “Who” will be making these changes to society and “what” changes will be made? Nobody can really answer that question.
Here’s my prescription for all people of all races: raise your kids properly and much of these broader social issues will work themselves out. The best part about my plan is that everyone can do it, and they can begin right this very minute.
Zek said: “What do you call the garbage truck? Construction crews? The maintenance of all those power-lines, roads, sewage pipes, and other public works? Do you clean those all by yourself, haha?”
I was mostly referring to rubbish on the ground.
However, Chinatown is a VERY small area, and breaking it up to talk about the dirtiness means going block by block, which means you’ll have to be more specific than your original comment.
The point was that there are dirty Chinese neighborhoods. Is that the result of a history of genocide too? Also, the Mission (pre-hipster invasion) was a mess, but 2 neighborhoods over the Castro is spotless. Are you going to tell me that the difference is that the Castro benefits from “gay privilege” that gave them an easy pass through life?
Here’s the thing: when people give a crap about their neighborhood, the neighborhood is nice. When they don’t, it isn’t. The genesis for this begins at home with the values that people instill in their children. There is nothing that you or anyone else can do to make people care if they don’t want to.
Kwamla said:,
“You seem to believe you can separate the two. This is self delusion on your part on. They are both inextricably linked. I also predict this is likely to result in Randy Garver agreeing with most of what you say.
Would that be a fair comment to make Randy?”
I haven’t read everything Obsidian has written, so I can’t write a blank-check endorsement, but what I’ve read seems to make sense.
For me, it’s not about “blame”. I think the stark truth is that nobody is going to help you but you, regardless of how you got where you are. Hoping and waiting for a glacial societal change to make your life better seems to be just about the worst advice that one could give to people they truly care about.
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@ Sam
I agree with your statements 100 fold!!
I wish more people could hear and see what should be plainly visible to everyone. The world is stupid, and most souls are too dumb to see the clowns and crooks in the shadows that control most, if not all, things!
@ Brother Abagond
You deserve to be well compensated for the incredible work you do here! Much thanks.
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Responses to Responses to Responses.
O: No, I don’t, primarily because I have and continue to address Black issues on my own blog. I don’t find “go to your own blog” or “write about these things yourself” to be legitimate “defenses” as to why Abagond and other Black bloggers are so very lopsided here. Why is he? Why can’t he take up both/and, instead of persisting in an either/or? That’s what I do.”
B: From what I could tell from a some blogs alone, you are focused on relationships and women mainly which isn’t a bad thing. However, you’re not quite as passionate in your own blog site about said issues as you are here.
I’ll answer your questions so you can answer mine…
O:Here, I have a better question: why are you and others here so worried about what White folks say or don’t say? Why does that make such a huge difference to you?”
B: I can’t speak for those that do, but I will tell you from my standpoint. I am not so worried about what they say or don’t say. I DO worry about what they do seeing as how they control a lot of the aspects of society like education, the media, the justice system, corporations, and politics. I am worried because many of them in those positions have the white racist mindset with in them. It makes such a difference because it shows that this society is anything but post-racial or colorblind, that racism still exist on institurional levels, and the effects of historical racism continue like internalized racism.
Now, my question to you, again, is why are you worrying so much about what we think and blog about?
O: Then what are you who are so concerned about racism doing about it? Are you forming a Congressional lobby? Organizing protests? What?
There’s very little I can do to fight institutional racism. I can fight internalized racism which, I admit, still dwells within me, by not believing the hype and not becoming part of the hype.
If you or anyone has any idea of some more things I can do, please let me know.
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Seems like to me that the majority of us here take issue with Obsidian, and to a lesser extent, Randy, and their attempts to minimize, and even outright deny institutional, structural racism as it affects the Black community (though I suspect they would say the same thing about any other ethnic or racial minority community).
But I guess a whole host of of objections aren’t enough for the deluded, and Obs clearly intends to object to our discussing these issues while refusing to step up to the plate himself in his own forum. Meanwhile, Randy just keeps on thinking the problems in poverty-stricken, mostly Black and Hispanic inner-city communities are due to “rubbish on the ground”, hah!
Randy, I live in SF (and so does my girlfriend) and your description of Chinatown being dirty is basically an opinion, because Chinatown is actually the same level of cleanliness as The Wharf, or Downtown, or any other part of the city with significant tourist traffic. Actually, it’s pretty much the same as the rest of the city.
Now, if you want to talk about the Tenderloin, or Bayview-Hunter’s Point, that’s a different matter, and I’d be happy to drop some knowledge bombs on ya as to why those places experience far more urban decay than say, Nob Hill or Pac Heights.
Either way, there ARE dirty neighborhoods, and unfortunately you seem incapable of understanding WHY this is. The Castro is far cleaner because it’s mostly White, upper-class, expendable income having, and politically active gay men. The Mission (pre and post hipster-invasion) is less cleaned-up — mostly around the BART stations — because the people who live there (besides the aforementioned hipsters) are mostly Spanish-speaking immigrants who can barely afford to live there in the first place due to rising housing costs, and who are excluded from local politics.
You, sir, have A LOT to learn about The City. Let me guess is your quiet neighborhood somewhere near Pac Heights or Russian Hill? Or do you come from Marin, and all that suburban Whiteness? Or are you living somewhere else now, and just stereotype things from memory?
Iunno how long Abagond intends to let Obsidian continue hijacking the topic. Maybe the debate is more “lively” and “intense”, but it doesn’t seem to do much except give Obs an ego boost, Abagond extra comments + hits, and the rest of us get blisters on our fingers from trying to out-type the madness.
And for the record, I gotta co-sign with Kwamla, because it’s a sorry situation when a Jewish kid from The Burbs knows more about racism than a blue-collar Black man.
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Obsidian, my comment had nothing to do with the back-and-forth that’s going on between you and a few others. It’s purely a response to the title of the post, nothing more. Please don’t try and pin a strawman on me.
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@ sam
Spot on.
@ “Professor” Hale
lol … they even look the same to you don’t they?
It must have never occurred to you that they don’t even speak the same language.
For myself and the people I know it’s straightforward to differenciate between a Nigerian and another Nigerian or between an Ivoirien and another Ivoirien. But that’s probably “genetic” isn’t it?
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@olufemi: 😀 “there is no appreciable difference between how a Nigerian immigrant acts and how an Ivory Coast immigrant acts.” Yeah, right, and there is no difference between a french man and a finn either 😀
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@randy: “Here’s my prescription for all people of all races: raise your kids properly and much of these broader social issues will work themselves out. The best part about my plan is that everyone can do it, and they can begin right this very minute.”
And it shows how it is that you do not get it: the absolute majority of the blacks are trying to do just that. So why the hell it is not working then? Why on earth there still are the ghettoes and slums? Why these honest hard working blacks are in trouble?
Could it be that they can not get the jobs which would allow them to make more money and better their lot? Perhaps the landlords do not want to invest any money for the housing because they can make more profit this way? Perhaps the local drugdealers and gangleaders are the only ones the local kids see with any money in reality? Perhaps a black kid looks at the new BMW driven by a local gangsta and thinks: “hey, he got that by selling dope! Not going to school…”? And where from this local dealer got his dope to sell around? Not from the black neighborhood…
You do know that there used to be a black middle class in some of those worst affected neighborhoods? Where did they go? What happened to them? Did they just decided to “act black” and tear down their houses?
And then the garbage:
Lets assume that people would do what you and than speed freak Obsidian suggest as a solution: people would sweep their doorsteps and front of their houses from all that dirt and trash. Where they put it? On the street?
Ok. Lets assume they have the money to buy dumbsters all over the place and put it in to dumbsters. Now, where they put the dumbsters?? In a year they would have mountains of trash cans and dumbsters on streets and back yards etc.
Ok. Lets assume that some black guys would have a truck to collect that trash. Well, in some communities you have to have a permission and a license and in some places you can not get these without connections, bribes or both. In some places you step directly on the toes of the Mob which still today plays a part in garbage collection busines. And that is not something anyone is willing to do.
Ok. Lets assume that these black trash collectors got their lisences and permits and made a deal with the Mob and/or the Machine which controls the waste disposal busines. Now they have to find a dumbsite to dumb their waste. That costs money too. Do they get it from a poor black neighborhood?
Not enough. That is why private waste disposal companies do not busines in poor ghettoes. That is why they are left on their own or on the mercy of the city goverment. And if the politicians, who think like you and Obsidian, are asked to invest more money to trash and garbage collection in the Blackside blocks, you will say: they should do like we all do and take care of their own trash!
Duh…
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I see Zekie still just doesn’t get it, so let’s try this again, shall we?
First, a bit of Reading Comp 101 for the boy; from my very first comment in this thread:
“Abagond,
I don’t have a problem per se with your premise here, but I do have a problem with your tendency to underplay or sweep under the rug very real problems that African Americans have. One such problem is indeed the highschool dropout rate, another is the very high OOW birthrate, and yet another is the high proportion of violent crimes Blacks commit, both against each other and against others, most notably, Whites. We can ignore all these things as just the racial/racist machinations of Whites, but all of these things are things that Blacks discuss among themselves – so long as we are out of earshot of Whites.
I see you and bloggers like you in the Afrosphere, as kinda doing a disservice to the idea of balanced dialogue and in truth are no better than White Nationalists who toot their own horn. There is nothing inherently wrong with taking issue with racism AND taking our own to task for falling down on the job, just as openly. Why you champion the former and patently refuse to do the latter, undermines any notions you may have of being intellectually honest.”
Aaannnnd, we’re off the races! Please notice that to date, NO ONE has actually dealt with what I said above; what they have done, is attack me, attack the creator of the Boondocks, attack this, attack that; ANYTHING but actually deal with the actual statement being made.
But is this anything new coming from Zekie? Nah…
Here’s my asking an interesting question and making an interesting statement, again posed to Abagond and any of his readers who are actually interested in talking about real stuff:
““What’s in a name?
There’s a high school in Washington, DC, that has currently been having more problems than three hypochondriac crackheads with an itch and a cough. There was recently (well last late year) a girl sexually assaulted in the school by a bunch of males who then had her name, face, and phone number plastered all over fliers that were passed out around the school as an “easy ride”. They’ve got gang problems. In fact, for a solid two months, I noticed no less than 10 police squad cards parked in front of the school. It’s a shame really. This school in its current iteration is a direct descendant of the famous (especially amongst older Black Americans) M Street School.
Yes, this high school is Paul Laurence Dunbar Senior High School.
And you know what? Every day I drive by I wonder aloud to the invisible passengers in my car if Dunbar wouldn’t want his name removed from that school. I know I would. If my name is going to be attached to something, which is an honor, I’d like it to be attached to something that doesn’t involve police, violent crimes, and plain ole f*ck sh*t. Of course, since most of our heroes names get attached to stuff in the Black community, which is generally inner city, well, we’re kind of stuck like chuck.”
Question: would you agree that it is entirely possible to discuss, openly, Black dysfunction and problems, AND, take up the very real issues of racism and Race? To me, in my world, there is room for both.”
One would think that, with so many erudite voices in the round – a young suburban Jewish guy who ostensibly knows more about Black life than some Black folk themselves – that an interesting discussion would ensue. Nope, wrong, what we get instead is a bunch of personal attacks, diversionary, change-the-subject tactics, and the like. Sweet.
Well, since the Jewish guy from the burbs is just so very convinced that he knows more about racism than a blue collar Brotha who’s actually lived in the hood, let the former school the latter just a weebit:
As I said earlier, there is NO excuse to litter up your own neighborhood, just like there is NO excuse to destroy your own neighborhood. NONE. Taking pride in yourself has NOTHING to do with racism or anything else. Black folk kept their blocks clean at a time when they couldn’t even vote; there just is no excuse for Black folk today, in 2011, to act like that. And in fact, I happen to know that it can be done, keeping one’s block clean that is, because I’ve seen it done, in our time. There’s one Sista who’s organized a clean sweep operation on one of the blocks I know of. It can be done. She didn’t have to protest, or have a roundtable on the history of oppression in order to do it. Just like Black folks back in the day didn’t need all of that to keep their block clean.
The school the great Thurgood Marshall went to in Baltimore, is now a literal shadow of its former self. The same is true for the once-famed and now infamous Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool in DC. The latter was among the highest performing schools in the country, at a time when “seperate but equal” was the law of the land and little Black kids couldn’t drink out of the same fountains as White ones. Today, as the above passage makes clear, even Black folk cringe when they go by the place. The B’More school I mentioned above, produced a Supreme Court justice; what is it producing today? To ask the question is to answer it.
Zekie “knows more about racism” than me, hmm? I’ll tell you what, Zekie, when you can tell me what it’s like to have a a phalanx of cops hold you down with guns in your face and coming *this* close to being a statistic on a crime blotter because they think you’re in league with a common criminal while trying to get something to eat at a Chinese takeout, holla at me. When you’re constantly harrassed for working in the burbs by the cops despite wearning business professional attire and clearly seen ID, by all means, get back to me. When you have to go out of your way not to wear certain items of clothing lest you might be mistaken for a criminal and catch a bullet (notice that hoodie you have on; something like that really isn’t an option for me, despite the fact that I’m a law-abiding citizen), come on back and tell me all about it. I know more about racism – in your face, life-threatening racism – than you will ever know. And do you know something, Zekie? One of the reasons why the Buppies get the heck outta Dodge – that is, the hood – is because they’re tired of having to fight White racism on one hand, and Black folks who Chris Rock had some colorful, choice words for on the other. Having to deal with the former is one thing and bad enough; having to put up with the latter is just effing ridiculous. Oh wait, you would know something about Black Flight, right?
My original blog had more than 300 posts, easily half of whom, took up issues of race in one way or another. I took the HBDers to task specifically, but I also took my own to task as well. Anyone who read that blog, knows this, except you of course. For shame. In my blog’s second run, I’ve taken up issues associated with race again, though of late I’ve decided to go in a slightly different direction. But there isn’t anyone out there, who knows of my blogging work, that will say with a straight face, what you just did above. Only the ignorant would.
I know you’re gonna really get going now, and clearly Abagond has no use for him, but John McWhorter was and is, right – racism simply isn’t as big a factor today as it once was in American life. Just isn’t, Zekie – and you know what? That’s a great thing! That should be something to celebrate. That doesn’t mean that there won’t be White or other folk who think bad thoughts about Black folk, and some who might even try to have their bad thoughts about Black folk come into reality; but they are far, far fewer today than there have ever been. For anyone to even think of challenging this statement, is to flirt with a very tenuous grip on reality. Today, the issue for Black folks, lies within. And we won’t get a handle on those things by pretending they don’t exist, or attacking the messengers when they point this out.
Now, sure, I can continue to write about that on my blog and call it a day, but it goes farther than that. When smart guys like Abagond flatout refuse to even admit that we do indeed have problems, problems of our own making and therefore, problems that we can solve, it kinda undercuts his argument, that White racism is everywhere and under every rock and around every corner, just laying in wait to string Black folk up or something. At some point adults recognize life for what it is, and the dirty little secret is that often we do things to sabotage ourselves. The NOI was brought down, not by pernicious White Devils, but by its own Black membership. That’s something we gotta keep in mind, and that’s something we need to address in our time – the enemies within.
I suppose at this point, Zekie & Co. will find a way to twist my words, deflect and change the subject, personally attack me, and find a way to squirm out of actually taking up what I’m saying here. It seems that the more “education” some of us gets, the better we are with shining up our you know what and trying to pass it off for gold.
But what do I know. I’m just a Blue Collar Brotha from the hood –
Right?
SMH…
O.
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I think we’ve all felt that cringe when we were around white people and then a black person starts acting in a very stereotypical manner. I remember being on an airplane once with mostly white people and these two ghettoish dudes were talking loud, laughing and using the n-word openly like they were hanging in their own living room. I could see people turning around with a WTF expression on their face. They didn’t seem to be phased.
I admit, moments like that can make me want to sink into my seat.
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“hat’s a lovely thought almost too precious for words, but so idealistic as to be practically useless. “Who” will be making these changes to society and “what” changes will be made? Nobody can really answer that question.
Here’s my prescription for all people of all races: raise your kids properly and much of these broader social issues will work themselves out. The best part about my plan is that everyone can do it, and they can begin right this very minute.”
that was weird. you said my thought was precious and too idealistic to be achieved and the question of who and how couldn’t be answered, and then you went on to answer it. lol.
I suppose you think that because I think racism is a problem and i’m against it that means I must be a bleeding heart liberal who wants the government to step in and cure every ailment of society. far from it. i’m for personal responsibility every bit as much as you are. the only difference is that I know it isn’t JUST blacks who need to take responsibility for making changes. whites must, must, must do this as well.
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Aw, why was my post removed? Was I that harsh?
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@ Franklin & Jason:
I just deleted some of your comments. They were ad hominems and a bit harsh. If a commenter has Asperger’s it is not something to make light of.
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yeah, but it might be good to know. And actually I don’t consider Asperger’s a disability. I think it’s just a different way of being. I’m all about neurodiversity baby.
Check this list of Amazingly important, brilliant, and influential people who had it. It’s practically a compliment.
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/article_2086.shtml
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True, you can have Asperger’s and be brilliant:
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I have some Asperger traits and I don’t think it’s fun when NTs* laugh at other people, or use their conditions as insults. (I have no idea if that happened in this thread, I’m just saying)
* Neuro typicals
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Obsidian said:
Instead of hijacking my threads and accusing others of “diversionary, change-the-subject tactics”, it would be better if you either:
a) Held your discussions on the Open Thread.
or, better still:
b) Write a guest post about one of the topics you say I avoid and I will write a counterpost. (My length requirement is 480 to 520 words).
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Zek said: “The Mission (pre and post hipster-invasion) is less cleaned-up — mostly around the BART stations — because the people who live there (besides the aforementioned hipsters) are mostly Spanish-speaking immigrants who can barely afford to live there in the first place due to rising housing costs, and who are excluded from local politics.”
Zek, your comment sounds pretty racist to me. Perhaps you could be so kind as to explain how being poor, spanish speaking, and not gay causes a person to willfully throw garbage from their hand to the ground.
sam said: “Lets assume that people would do what you and than speed freak Obsidian suggest as a solution: people would sweep their doorsteps and front of their houses from all that dirt and trash. Where they put it? On the street? “
All neighborhoods have garbage pickup so that’s a straw man argument. Street rubbish is primarily caused by people who have garbage in their hands throwing it onto the street. Perhaps you could explain to me what is preventing anyone of any race from not littering.
jas0nburns said: “i’m for personal responsibility every bit as much as you are. the only difference is that I know it isn’t JUST blacks who need to take responsibility for making changes. whites must, must, must do this as well.”
Perhaps you can offer an example of this. What actions can you do as a white person to make other white and non-white neighborhoods cleaner?
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Hello Abagond,
Your accusations of my “hijacking your threads” is unfair and disengenuous. I reject the notion that unless I’m following lockstep with what you write, somehow I’m “hijacking” something. That’s silly and simplistic. You’re just mad that I don’t have an overwhelming need to blame every problem Black folk have on racism, that I acutally think that there are some things Black folk bring on themselves, and that I think some introspection and self-criticism is actually a good thing.
“Black Shame” and White Guilt are two sides of the same coin, and both are hookum-arguments made in mala fide to attempt to shutdown any kind of debate. The White Guilt argument says that White folks are somehow held hostage by the predations of Black folks; Black Shame says that Black folk are made to feel guilty for the actions of a misguided few. I say both arguments, such as they are, are bunk.
Day in and day out, you post about some aspect of the vast, Whitewing conspiracy, if I can paraphrase a term – and I am here to say, that it just ain’t so. Again: that is NOT to say that racism no longer exists; it does. But, and I know you’re not fond of him but I’m sorry to confuse you with the facts, John McWhorter makes a very good point when he says that racism simply isn’t as big a factor in Black American life as it once was – and that should be seen as a good thing. The problems that beset Black folk in our time, Abagond, have very little to do with The Bell Curve, or what White folks choose to think in their heads.
When we can openly discuss those problems without fear of White folks hearing, or without attempting to blame said problems on some supposed “legacy of slavery” and so forth, we will have truly arrived as a people.
Holla back – hopefully, without any recourse to “the White Man”, charges of “hijacking threads” and the like?
O.
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Obsidian:
On the argument that I see racism in everything:
On McWhorter:
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@Obsidian
O: OK – but again, SO WHAT? What does what Bernie Madoff have to do with Black crime? So, it makes the latter OK if the former engages in criminality too?
Bernie Madoff has nothing to do with “black crime.” I just have a problem with the fact that people have the tendency to make all blacks out as criminals, yet absolutely nothing bad sticks to white people. It’s a HUGE societal double standard that gets on my nerves! Does it make the latter okay? NO, but why the double standard? Why can’t we talk about white people and there problems? Why do we have to pretend the average black person is a bad person? Why do we have to talk about black pathologies ALL of the time while ignoring black folks who are harmless and simply want to LIVE like everybody else? I’m perfectly justified in being irked by that.
How about we address that which puts both of us at risk – which is Black crime? Why can’t we focus on that? Why must we be so very infantile about all this? What is up with that?
A world financial crisis doesn’t affect us both? Ummm…. GTFOH!!! I’ve lived in inner city Atlanta and I have nv been robbed or assaulted by these big scary blk criminals you want me to talk about so much. Stop telling me what puts me at risk. All I want is a a balance and an end to this huge double standard that repeats the same mantra. Black=bad, white=good. As if their are no disproportionately white crimes. BS!
O: That’s just it – I am not concerned in the least with what White folks think or don’t think of me or Black folk in general. I am concerned with Black folk getting their own act together. Big difference.
Yes, you are. If you weren’t you wouldn’t have stated several times that black ppl only want to talk about the communities issues when white folks are absent. Why is Bill Cosby, so novel again?
O: Does ignoring them?
Answering a question with a question doesn’t work for me. Why do you feel it is so important for blacks to discuss black pathologies in front of whites? You’ve brought up Cosby several times, so you can’t act as if you don’t care about white ppl when you bring them up all the time.
O: This is true; we were not in a formal “debate”. Nevertheless, you made a claim that was fallacious. You attacked me instead of my position, and by definition, would fall under the term Ad Hominem. a logical fallacy.
This is just dumb. I called you a racist. Big deal. How is that attacking you? What point were you making that I derailed by calling you one? Stop trying to twist and turn this issue. I can’t attack a position of yours if I am not in an argument w/ you.
Holla back – this time, you can address yourself to the Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool, and how its devolution is due entirely to White system racial oppression…?
How the hell am I to know? I’ve never even heard of the place until you brought it up yesterday. Do you want me to make some top down assessment based on black stereotypes and what little I know of the school?
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Co-sign what the Cynic just wrote.
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Hi Cynic,
Replies below:
C: @Obsidian
O: OK – but again, SO WHAT? What does what Bernie Madoff have to do with Black crime? So, it makes the latter OK if the former engages in criminality too?
C: Bernie Madoff has nothing to do with “black crime.”
O: Well, I’m glad to see we agree on something, LOL.
C: I just have a problem with the fact that people have the tendency to make all blacks out as criminals, yet absolutely nothing bad sticks to white people.
O: So let me get this straight – we have to have a kind of Fairness Doctrine when we discuss crime here? That we can only discuss Black crime, by also discussing White crime? Is that it?
C: It’s a HUGE societal double standard that gets on my nerves! Does it make the latter okay? NO, but why the double standard? Why can’t we talk about white people and there problems?
O: Maybe because Whites don’t commit as much violent street crime as Blacks? I’m jus’ sayin’…
C: Why do we have to pretend the average black person is a bad person?
O: No one was making such an argument, I know I wasn’t.
C: Why do we have to talk about black pathologies ALL of the time while ignoring black folks who are harmless and simply want to LIVE like everybody else? I’m perfectly justified in being irked by that.
O: I never said that we have to discuss Black pathology all the time. Just that we discuss it at least SOME of the time.
O: How about we address that which puts both of us at risk – which is Black crime? Why can’t we focus on that? Why must we be so very infantile about all this? What is up with that?
C: A world financial crisis doesn’t affect us both? Ummm…. GTFOH!!! I’ve lived in inner city Atlanta and I have nv been robbed or assaulted by these big scary blk criminals you want me to talk about so much. Stop telling me what puts me at risk. All I want is a a balance and an end to this huge double standard that repeats the same mantra. Black=bad, white=good. As if their are no disproportionately white crimes. BS!
O: OK, so do we need to actually look at the most dangerous cities in America? Because I can assure you, that ATL is among them. That YOU didn’t fall prey to violent Black street crime doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen or that it is not a legitimate concern, and the global financial crisis has very little to do with that. Of course the global financial crisis is a legitimate concern; it is just that, unlike you, I do not wish to mix and match crisis. I like to take each situation on a case by case basis and weigh them on their merits or the lack thereof.
O: That’s just it – I am not concerned in the least with what White folks think or don’t think of me or Black folk in general. I am concerned with Black folk getting their own act together. Big difference.
C: Yes, you are. If you weren’t you wouldn’t have stated several times that black ppl only want to talk about the communities issues when white folks are absent. Why is Bill Cosby, so novel again?
O: Because Cosby said outloud what both White AND BLACK people had been saying in private, FOR YEARS now. Why the need to cover that up, Cynic? Too embarrassed or something? I thought you said you werent concerned about what other people did or didn’t do – if that’s true, why does what Cosby said bother you so?
C: Answering a question with a question doesn’t work for me.
O: Well, that’s just too bad. It works very well for me.
C: Why do you feel it is so important for blacks to discuss black pathologies in front of whites? You’ve brought up Cosby several times, so you can’t act as if you don’t care about white ppl when you bring them up all the time.
O: Why do you feel it’s so important for Blacks to either pretend such problems don’t exist, or failing that, that we discuss it ONLY when we’re “among ourselves”? What is up with that?
C: This is just dumb. I called you a racist. Big deal. How is that attacking you? What point were you making that I derailed by calling you one? Stop trying to twist and turn this issue. I can’t attack a position of yours if I am not in an argument w/ you.
O: What’s dumb is trying to belittle the impact and meaning of what the term you used on me, means, of what the term means in American life. Perhaps you are not an American, and don’t understand that, and if that is indeed the case, then there is nothing I can do about that. You accuse me of twisting and turning issues, when it was you who brought out the name calling of the worst kind first. Instead of debating me on the actual issue, you simply call me a racist. Yea, real sharp…
O: Holla back – this time, you can address yourself to the Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool, and how its devolution is due entirely to White system racial oppression…?
C: How the hell am I to know? I’ve never even heard of the place until you brought it up yesterday. Do you want me to make some top down assessment based on black stereotypes and what little I know of the school?
O: No, just speak to that particular issue. But since you’re wholly ignorant of the matter, I’ll list your response as, well, just that. Ignorant.
O.
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Thank you, Cynic 😀
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“you can address yourself to the Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool, and how its devolution is due entirely to White system racial oppression…?’
I’ll address it.
why the need for an all black school in the first place? because white racism that’s why. Why does an all black school exist? because white racism that’s why. Why do black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods exist? because white racism that’s why. Whether that particular school sank or swam it’s very existence wouldn’t even be possible without white racism. So how can something like white racism be the root cause of a school and a communities very existence and yet somehow not effect the lives of the students within it’s walls? it can’t.
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Obsidian:
Please remind us what Paul Laurence Dunbar high school in DC has to do with this post. I mean, since you are not one to derail posts or anything.
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Randy,
Why are you still stuck on the littering thing? Most of the urban decay and dirtiness in these neighborhoods HAS NOTHING to do with miscellaneous trash on the ground.
Have you even been paying attention??
It has to do with maintenance of the buildings, the buses, the roads, the power-lines, the BART stations, the garbage trucks, the sewage pipes, and so many other things which local residents have no individual control over.
You really think most poor neighborhoods are dirty because people just toss their trash on the ground? Even if that were true, it still doesn’t account for the fact that Pac Heights has way more city workers cleaning random garbage off the sidewalk than the Outer Mission.
But, of course, you insinuate I am the racist here! Haha!
Randy, you need to get out of that classist racist bubble of yours and head down to your library, because I’m not in the mood to teach you about kyriarchal oppression.
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@Obs
“O: So let me get this straight – we have to have a kind of Fairness Doctrine when we discuss crime here? That we can only discuss Black crime, by also discussing White crime? Is that it?”
Yes.
“O: Maybe because Whites don’t commit as much violent street crime as Blacks? I’m jus’ sayin’…”
Violent street crime is not the only type of crime. Violent street crime is not the only type of crime that hurts are society.
“O: No one was making such an argument, I know I wasn’t.”
When we constantly talk about black pathologies w/o countering it, then we suggest black pathologies define black people as a whole. That is where the black=bad, white=good mentality comes from. That is what helps promote anti-black discrimination.
“I do not wish to mix and match crisis. like to take each situation on a case by case basis and weigh them on their merits or the lack thereof.”
No, you don’t. You just like to sh*t on black folks.
“O: Because Cosby said outloud what both White AND BLACK people had been saying in private, FOR YEARS now. Why the need to cover that up, Cynic? Too embarrassed or something? I thought you said you werent concerned about what other people did or didn’t do – if that’s true, why does what Cosby said bother you so?”
No, I just don’t like how you pretend what he did was super novel and necessary. I nv said anything about covering anything up. I just don’t feel like their was anything special or groundbreaking about what he said. What white folks say in private really ain’t that private anyways. If that was the case we wouldn’t know what they say in private!
“O: Well, that’s just too bad. It works very well for me.”
Okay. Your diversions speak louder than any words I need to hear.
“O: Why do you feel it’s so important for Blacks to either pretend such problems don’t exist, or failing that, that we discuss it ONLY when we’re “among ourselves”? What is up with that?”
I never said that. Oh and I see you took a cue from your answer to my earlier question by asking another question. Nice…
“O: What’s dumb is trying to belittle the impact and meaning of what the term you used on me, means, of what the term means in American life.”
I think your a racist. Get over it. It’s not a curse word or a name you call somebody to hurt their feelings.
“You accuse me of twisting and turning issues, when it was you who brought out the name calling of the worst kind first. Instead of debating me on the actual issue, you simply call me a racist. Yea, real sharp…”
Actually I wasn’t in a debate with you.
“O: No, just speak to that particular issue. But since you’re wholly ignorant of the matter, I’ll list your response as, well, just that. Ignorant.”
Nothing is wrong with being ignorant. We are ALL ignorant when it comes to certain issues. If somebody asked me what I felt about Indonesian politics I would tell them that I have no opinion bc I am not well-versed on the issue.
It’s like when you see ignorant people speaking on 3rd world poverty in countries like Haiti, for example. You hear the same uneducated banter. “Those dirty dumb broke lazy n*ggers”(an exaggeration, but hopefully you get the point) is their answer for why they are so poor. These same ppl couldn’t tell you anything about the Haitian blockade, French debt, US occupation, a US imposed constitution allowing corporations to buy up Haitian land, the IMF, Aristide, the Duvaliers, etc.
Yes, I am ignorant and bc of that, Ill keep my mouth closed!
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Nothing is wrong with being ignorant. We are ALL ignorant when it comes to certain issues.
It’s like when you see ignorant people speaking on 3rd world poverty in countries like Haiti, for example. You hear the same uneducated banter. “Those dirty dumb broke lazy n*ggers”(an exaggeration, but hopefully you get the point) is their answer for why they are so poor. These same ppl couldn’t tell you anything about the Haitian blockade, French debt, US occupation, a US imposed constitution allowing corporations to buy up Haitian land, the IMF, Aristide, the Duvaliers, etc.”
You see Obs. This is an example of ppl using top down processing with stereotypes as the foundation. This is ignorance, a trait we all have. Bc of the ubiquitousness of this trait it’s okay for us to be ignorant as long as we don’t practice ignorance. You feel me 😉
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jas0nburns said: “Why does an all black school exist? because white racism that’s why. Why do black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods exist? because white racism that’s why. Whether that particular school sank or swam it’s very existence wouldn’t even be possible without white racism.”
This is a ridiculous comment.
I’ve seen Vietnamese, Polish, German, Chinese, Indian, Italian, Somali, Irish, and Arab neighborhoods which existed because those people voluntarily chose to live near their fellows. So-called “white racism” had nothing to do with it.
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“’ve seen Vietnamese, Polish, German, Chinese, Indian, Italian, Somali, Irish, and Arab neighborhoods which existed because those people voluntarily chose to live near their fellows. So-called “white racism” had nothing to do with it.”
now see, I didn’t want to bring all this up. Are you really unaware of how blacks were physically banned from entering white neighborhoods by the police and white residents? up until the civil rights movement it was out in the open. If you were black and wanted to buy an ice cream cone anywhere but in your designated black neighborhood the cops would roll up and tell you to get back where you belong. Now do you think the timing and extent of white flight just happen to coincide with the civil rights movement and the passing of anti-discrimination laws? racially segregated neighborhoods were created by white racism end of discussion. You think a Black school would exist if Blacks weren’t denied entry into white institutions? Why? What would be the need? You’re incredibly ignorant my friend. Seriously get a f**king clue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_discrimination_%28United_States%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight
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@ Randy
from the article
“http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Ha-La/Italian-Americans.html”
“(Italian)Immigrants often sought out Little Italies as a result of the hostility they encountered in American society. As a despised minority rooted in the working class and seemingly resistant to assimilation, Italians suffered widespread discrimination in housing and employment. American responses to the immigrants occasionally took uglier forms as Italians became the victims of intimidation and violence, the most notorious incident being the 1890 lynching of 11 Italians in New Orleans. Italian mass migration coincided with the growth of a nativism that identified southern and eastern Europeans as undesirable elements. Inspired by the pseudo-scientific findings of eugenics and social Darwinism, turn-of-the-century nativists often branded southern Italians as especially inferior. Powerful stereo-types centering on poverty, clannishness, illiteracy, high disease rates, and an alleged proclivity toward criminal activities underscored the view that southern Italians were a degenerate “race” that should be denied entry to America. Criticism of Italians became integral to the successful legislative drives to enact the nativist Literacy Test in 1917 and National Origins Acts in 1921 and 1924.”
Starting to get the picture?
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Zek said: “You really think most poor neighborhoods are dirty because people just toss their trash on the ground?”
Very often yes. In most suburban neighborhoods I’ve lived in (including parts of SF), there are no people picking up trash from private yards except for the residents.
“But, of course, you insinuate I am the racist here! Haha!”
To be precise, I alleged that your comment was racist. Why? Because you blamed the difference in street rubbish between the Mission and the Castro on the race and income.
You’re also willing to suggest that poor Spanish speaking people lack the agency to self-determine the cleanliness of their surroundings. I’m not willing to deprive anyone of that dignity, regardless of race, religion, class, or sexual orientation.
Whether or not the power lines are serviced more often in Pac Heights vs. the Misison, I lack sufficient information to comment. However, I can and have seen people strewing garbage on the ground.
Here’s Occam’s Razor for you: the Castro is cleaner because the residents don’t want to live in squalor and are willing to work hard to keep their neighborhood nice.
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Hi Abagond,
Replies below:
A: Obsidian:
Please remind us what Paul Laurence Dunbar high school in DC has to do with this post. I mean, since you are not one to derail posts or anything.
O: Sure – it has to do with being evenhanded in analyzing issues pertinent to the Black community. When examining the fall of the famed and now infamous Paul Lawrence Dunbar highschool in Washington DC, it becomes rather difficult to see how a vast Whitewing conspiracy has played a role in it. Mind you, the majority of the students AND teachers/staff have been and continue to be, Black.
I’ve referred to it upthread. Would be very interested in your response.
As for McWhorter: it is interesting that your post would frame the issue of racism in the way you did, because I have a family member dealing with a discrimination lawsuit on her job (gender, not race) and she only brought the suit after extensive discussion with the rest of us family members. We carefully examined the facts of her situation, then carefully reviewed the law on these matters and concluded that she did indeed have grounds for a lawsuit. It just so happens that another such lawsuit is pending at her workplace for another instance of gender discrimination.
I say all this to say that I do not believe that racism or in this case, sexism, is utterly dead. All I am saying is that they play much less a role in American life today in 2011, that they once did – and that we should see that as a very good thing.
Holla back
O.
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“To be precise, I alleged that your comment was racist. Why? Because you blamed the difference in street rubbish between the Mission and the Castro on the race and income. ”
see Abagond? this is what the kind of dishonest trolling that is dragging your blog down man. This could have been a quality thread.
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Very often yes.
And that, Randy, is why you fail =/
You really have NO idea what you’re talking about, and the sad thing is you think my comment was racist, when I was merely explaining that racism is why people in city government don’t keep poor minority neighborhoods as clean as they do for rich White ones.
But you can’t seem to make this connection, let alone understand structural racism. Oy vey.
People of Color in America don’t lack self-agency. They lack the resources to combat an entrenched form of racism that denies their agency in myriad forms, from getting a job that pays a living wage, to receiving equal access to public works that are SUPPOSED to be giving equal treatment to different neighborhoods.
Occam’s Razor for you:
You take the simplest explanation — your own experience — and assume it’s the right one.
Problem:
You’re only seeing what you want to see.
And what you say deprives people of the dignity of acknowledging the ways in which they’re oppressed.
Like Andy Dufresne said to the Warden, “How can you be so obtuse?”
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I wish you could *like comments on here facebook style. zek’s last comment gets a like from me.
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Zek said: “People of Color in America don’t lack self-agency. They lack the resources to combat an entrenched form of racism that denies their agency in myriad forms, from getting a job that pays a living wage, to receiving equal access to public works that are SUPPOSED to be giving equal treatment to different neighborhoods.”
Perhaps you can tell me what particular form of racism causes young men in the Mission to publicly drink beer and throw the empties on the ground while I’m at work.
While it may seem like a minor issue in the grand scheme of things, street litter is a great example of a community’s respect for itself. It’s a form of direct action, from the hand to the ground. If you can’t even take litterers to task, then you’re basically admitting that people in fact LACK agency. I just don’t see how you can have that cake and eat it too.
Furthermore, it’s not just black and hispanic neighborhoods which are dirty, and there are many black and hispanic neighborhoods which aren’t. What about dirty white and asian neighborhoods? What macro sociological forces are responsible for those?
You see, once you start down that “it’s not their fault!” road, you have to derive excuse after excuse ad infinitum to account for the full continuum of human experience.
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Seriously, Jason, same for your comment above mine.
I mean, I know there are not-so-bright people in the world, but for someone to make a statement like, “To be precise, I alleged that your comment was racist. Why? Because you blamed the difference in street rubbish between the Mission and the Castro on the race and income.” And at the same time blame Black people for not picking up trash in their neighborhoods is hilarious.
It’s also a little frightening.
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zek,
Please understand that in no way do I single out any group for such behavior.
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Randy,
You obviously don’t get it, and I’m tired of trying to explain it.
Suffice to say, check out a book by Thomas Sugrue entitled, The Origins of the Urban Crisis: Race and Inequality in Postwar Detroit.
It’s not only a great case-study of what I’m talking about, but it also connects to the larger issue of structural racism and WHY so many poor neighborhoods, particularly the ones inhabited by People of Color are “dirtier” than others.
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Randy, what do you have to say about my direct refutation of your ridiculous claim that racial segregation is a result of benign preference?
Having trouble? I guess that cognitive dissonance forced you to change the subject back to something a bit more bite sized, like littering lol.
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“Perhaps you can tell me what particular form of racism causes young men in the Mission to publicly drink beer and throw the empties on the ground while I’m at work.”
Sounds like something I would have done as a young man. But it’s cool cause i’m white right? We all know that nobody is going to say “what’s up with white people throwing beer bottles around, why don’t they go back to Europe”
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Oh my days, no! Send them to Antarctica. It’ll make them smarter too, won’t it?
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Zek said:
Thanks for the book suggestion!
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Haha, and of course we can’t judge White people as a race, because they’re individuals! But more importantly, it’s because it’s racist ; )
Randy, Chuck, Obs, are either outliers of ignorance, or representative of a greater form of it. I choose to believe the former over the latter.
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Abagond,
You’re welcome! I’m all about the written word.
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To Jas0nburns:
Randy said
“Perhaps you can tell me what particular form of racism causes young men in the Mission to publicly drink beer and throw the empties on the ground while I’m at work.”
Jason replied
Sounds like something I would have done as a young man. But it’s cool cause i’m white right? We all know that nobody is going to say “what’s up with white people throwing beer bottles around, why don’t they go back to Europe”
Non sequitur Jason.. and really a back handed insult to Randy.
Randy was replying to Zek comments:
“You really think most poor neighborhoods are dirty because people just toss their trash on the ground? ….
Randy, you need to get out of that classist racist bubble of yours and head down to your library, because I’m not in the mood to teach you about kyriarchal oppression. ”
It’s not a “Black thing” that certain neighborhoods in Oakland, CA are dirty… I lived in Seattle in a mixed race neighborhood and the streets were clean. The streets were also clean in predominantly Black neighborhoods..a few blocks away and I suspect if one were to go to some of better off DC suburbs that are predominantly Black they would be clean also. I think in Seattle there has been strong anti littering campaigns for years, which has yielded positive results.
It’s really what I would call a redneck don’t give a damn attitude which can cut across race lines.. for Whites it’s mostly in rural areas.. although I have noticed that in former home town they are now substantial fines for dumping and littering which has had a good effect.
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Jason said:
I know.
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Perhaps you can tell me what particular form of racism causes young men in the Mission to publicly drink beer and throw the empties on the ground while I’m at work.
Maybe they know you are in the vicinity and will run out and clean up the empty beer bottles! Who knows may be you can cash them in and get some change!
What macro sociological forces are responsible for those?
They don’t have people like you in the neighbourhood to rum behind them to pick up their trash! Tell me, do you wash windows?
You see, once you start down that “it’s not their fault!” road, you have to derive excuse after excuse ad infinitum to account for the full continuum of human experience.
It’s not their fault!
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jas0nburns said: “Sounds like something I would have done as a young man. But it’s cool cause i’m white right?”
Quite the opposite. According to the zek model, it’s only cool if you’re not white. Apparently if you’re white, a different set of social behavior metrics applies. As a white person, you’re “privileged” and should know better.
According to my standard, everyone is judged the same, regardless of race.
I’ll answer your other question shortly.
zek said, “It’s not only a great case-study of what I’m talking about, but it also connects to the larger issue of structural racism and WHY so many poor neighborhoods, particularly the ones inhabited by People of Color are “dirtier” than others.”
If you would briefly indulge me (and other interested parties), please summarize why people of any ethnicity should feel entitled to willfully drop refuse into the public space where they reside, and why anyone should excuse that behavior.
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Randy, Chuck, Obs, are either outliers of ignorance, or representative of a greater form of it. I choose to believe the former over the latter.
Maybe they are under the malign influence of the evil Cthulu:
Oh my days, no! Send them to Antarctica. It’ll make them smarter too, won’t it?
Hey don’t knock it! It worked for me!:
My head grew so big, my eyes are almost popping out of my head!
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If you would briefly indulge me (and other interested parties), please summarize why people of any ethnicity should feel entitled to willfully drop refuse into the public space where they reside, and why anyone should excuse that behavior.
Since you have already derailed this topic towards trash, can you tell me what kind of mop and cleanser to use on a marble floor? I am having a heck of a time cleaning them without leaving water streaks behind. Cleaning seems to be your forte what with your obsession with litter and such. In return I will briefly indulge you. It’s like this, this topic is about black shame, not the littering epidemic in the States or where you live. I am all for hilarity, but really, you are too much going off on these tangents!
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Egad multiple grammatical errors… here is a rewrite:
To Jas0nburns:
Powerful stereo-types centering on poverty, clannishness, illiteracy, high disease rates, and an alleged proclivity toward criminal activities underscored the view that southern Italians were a degenerate “race” that should be denied entry to America. Criticism of Italians became integral to the successful legislative drives to enact the nativist Literacy Test in 1917 and National Origins Acts in 1921 and 1924.”
Did you know that National Origins acts specifically did not apply to immigrants from Latin America..?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924
“The Act set no limits on immigration from the Latin American countries.”
Certainly there was a component of support for the National Origins act that came from White Supremacists (who had been demanding to close the doors for a while…) but I would say the main reason that the acts were passed was because of pressure from business which considered Southern and Eastern Europeans to be more of a threat to American business. If it was just about “racial purity” why wouldn’t they also ban Latino immigrants..?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_bombing#Investigations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman#Deportation
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To Herneith:
Since you have already derailed this topic towards trash..
FWIW Obsidian and Sam brought up the trash issue first..
can you tell me what kind of mop and cleanser to use on a marble floor?
Baking soda and warm water…..
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Randy,
You’re taking individuals and using them to represent the entire population. The small fraction of whatever race or ethnicity (including White people!) that don’t clean up after themselves cannot be held as representative over their entire group. But this courtesy is only extended to White people in practice, and the reason for that is racist stereotyping. (I’ll leave the reasons for urban decay to Sugrue.)
For example, you are doing that right now. You assume that poor Black neighborhoods receive equal treatment as middle-class White ones, and the fact is that they do not. Your inability to recognize this is merely one facet of your own racism. And it’s actually pretty common, even among the most enlightened liberals of SF.
Nobody excuses anyone for littering, but there are mitigating factors that cause litter to build up around inner-city neighborhoods, and more importantly cause many people to feel apathetic to what happens to them. And this isn’t new either. Jews were relegated to ghettos during much of the middle ages, and by forcing people (whether through laws, or housing prices, projects, or historical segregation) into certain areas that are already decrepit, it creates a feeling of resentment, and so people have less emotional incentive or investment in where they live.
Again, your failure to understand this underscores the privilege with which you have lived in.
Your personal belief in equality is simplistic in that it doesn’t guarantee equal results. Why? Because you assume that everyone starts off with an equal chance in life, and this is not the case. In America, this is definitely not the case with People of Color. I suggest you read up on our history. Maybe add A People’s History of The United States, by Howard Zinn, to your re-education.
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“Sounds like something I would have done as a young man. But it’s cool cause i’m white right? We all know that nobody is going to say “what’s up with white people throwing beer bottles around, why don’t they go back to Europe”
Non sequitur Jason. and really a back handed insult to Randy.”
I think it does follow. I was pointing out that his default focus on POC in terms of pathology in itself is racist. It’s worth pointing out (not to mention on topic) that when whites do bad stuff, like litter, there is no “white shame” that white people collectively feel. When I see a white guy on the news I don’t say to myself “oh man, that is going to reflect poorly on me” or “why are we WP like this?” So when a WP sees a BP do something bad and attributes it to blacks in general, that is racism period. My comment was an attempt to highlight this by showing that the behavior in question is just as common among white youth. And believe me it is.
This whole conversation is about how non-whites are collectively blamed (by whites and non-whites alike.) for the actions of individual non-whites while whites are not. Randy may say that he’s not specifically talking about POC and therefor his comments are not racist. but the topic of this post is black shame and all the comments about litter and all that started with….
“Please explain to me how a dirty Black neighborhood is inextricably linked to White racism.”
Nobody is talking about dirty white neighborhoods here and we all know it. Dirty white neighborhoods are assumed to be caused by “white trash” or uneducated WP. A special, specific type of WP that whites in general can disown and be seen as separate from simply by dressing and talking a certain way. The simple truth is that WP are immune from being bashed in the way Randy and Obsidian are bashing POC.
All of Randy and Obsidians rhetoric boils down to the idea that if blacks feel ashamed it’s not because of white racism it’s because Blacks TRULY are inferior and they know it. Don’t let all the dancing and ducking fool you. It’s no coincidence these two are incapable of being direct.
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To Jas0n:
All of Randy and Obsidians rhetoric boils down to the idea that if blacks feel ashamed it’s not because of white racism it’s because Blacks TRULY are inferior and they know it.
From my past reading of Obsidian’s comments, I doubt he would agree with that statement… but I should let Randy and Obsidian offer their rebuttals. As for collective shame there are most assuredly Whites who feel have it albeit it might not be for littering. As for myself.. I don’t feel shame towards the actions of other Whites.. (even though some posters on here seem to think I should…) but I am increasingly disappointed in the actions of our (predominantly White) politicians running headlong in the opposite direction of rational governance….Also younger White people seem to be shirking more difficult subjects at Universities… basically ceding the ground to Asians. I work for a fortune 500 company centered around the IT industry that has hosted roughly 90 student interns in my division in the last decade… of the interns only about 15% were White and more than half of them were from immigrant parents. (Usually Eastern Europe…)
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To Jas0n:
Nobody is talking about dirty white neighborhoods here and we all know it.
I did.. see my first post… and I also pointed out that I had lived in or near predominantly Black neighborhoods in Seattle that were clean.
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@ Uncle Milton
Yeah, you’re comment did remind me, or rather help clarify something that’s been eating at me throughout this whole thread. The main aesthetic issue with the low income black neighborhoods, at least here in Cleveland is really the state of the houses and buildings themselves. It’s not trash in the street. Whoever owns most of the property probably isn’t a resident of the area but who knows.
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zek and jas0n,
What’s interesting about this debate is that both of you seem to consider it racist to treat all people equally irrespective of their race. Talk about Orwellian doublethink!
Here’s an idea for you: maybe the problem isn’t too much shame, but not nearly enough.
Perhaps someone can explain to me how a person or group of persons ever benefits from lowered expectations.
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Abagond,
That picture of Barry Manilow is Hilarious!!! but true…I thought this post was going to be about the things black people like but are ashamed to admit…such as
Listening to rock music, country music, or liking Fred Sinatra or a band like Airsupply…you know, “white people” music….
Now to me, that would be more of an interesting topic to discuss because I think in America, black people put alot of pressure on each other to conform to their stereotypes…
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How many white people are ashamed of what happened to the Native Americans?
Not me. I’m not even ashamed of being a racist.
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I liked what Jason said, it’s worth repeating:
“Basically we are all drinking the same Kool-Aid. I get the impression that both blacks and whites tend to believe roughly the same things ABOUT blacks and whites respectively. So that same set of beliefs when held by a black person is going to be shame, when held by a white person it’s racism. The beliefs are the same, the only difference is which side of the isle your standing on and how that same set of beliefs effects your group.
Both blacks and whites suffer from the exact same delusion. black pathology and white racism are two sides of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other.”
Linda says,
As a black immigrant to this country…in my eyes, as an outsider looking in, both black and white Americans (the ones whose families have been here for many generations) are similar when it comes to many things…I look at both through the same lense…
I’ve been told by both, that me and my countrymen are stealing American jobs…
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Randy,
Treating people equally is an individual thing, and something we should all do obviously. But I’m talking about about a large scale population, entire races of people that are treated unequally en masse by entire systems and structures of government, as well as the private-sector.
In your fairytale world, I’m sure treating people equally really does mean everybody gets a fair shake, but in the real world, racism ensures that equality never even gets a chance to get out of the gate.
You’re too simplistic and naive Randy, too wrapped-up in your privilege to actually SEE, and way, way, way too indoctrinated to understand that equality needs to be predicated on the fact that we’re all actually being treated equally, as individuals and as groups. But we’re not. White people have historically been treated better than ALL other groups of people in this country.
I mean, this is racism 101, and if you can’t even wrap your head around that basic concept, you’re lost man. You’re like a pebble skipping over the water, barely in touch with reality. You might as well be sleeping.
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Abagond,
Black people have no reason to be ashamed about anything. Remember, our ancestors were put on ships and brought to “The Americas” against their will. Whites are the people that should be ashamed, not us. Black people who lack knowledge of self walk around with their heads hanging down and their lips stuck out. Individual black people who bring shame to the race, are making themselves look bad. Despite conventional wisdom, all blacks don’t think the same, all blacks don’t believe in the same things, all blacks don’t live their lives in the same way.
Black people who support “Groupthink” fall victim to what they see and hear in white media. Whites base a lot of their opinions about black people on “false premises” and “false assumptions. Black people who make asses of themselves on Jerry Springer and Maury Povich don’t speak for us. Blackmen in hip-hop who promote self-hatred amongst our people don’t speak for us. Black ministers and pastors who serve up black votes for Democrats every election cycle don’t speak for us. Black politicians who collect a paycheck without advancing black success and prosperity don’t speak for us.
Black people who can think for themselves, should never allow the insanity of white culture to cloud their judgement. Abagond, what is true freedom?
1. We think what we want to think.
2. We believe what we want to believe.
3. We like and dislike whomever we want.
4. We are the pilots of our own planes, not others.
5. We apologize to no one.
Black people, stop being afraid to live your lives. Stay Black, Stay Alive, Stay Healthy, and Stay Free. Blackness is a blessing, not a curse.
Tyrone
Look Deeper
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Tyrone said
I agree with that. I think that is part of why whites feel the need to demonize blacks. They make a big deal out of black crime, for example – and yet they know that much bigger crimes than robbing 7-Elevens are being committed against blacks by whites, both in the past and the present.
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Tyrone,
I absolutely agree. If whites are seen as individuals, why can’t blacks? It’s part of the racial double standard that lives in this society. People see one or a few black people act insane and conclude that as the way black people everywhere act.
Blacks are not a monolithic group like the Borg from Star Trek. It’s something people, including blacks who go through black shame, need to realize.
As far as television goes people rely on what they see on television so much they can’t tell reality from fiction. They’ve been bombarded by images by the media so much that it’s become a new religion, Televisionism, and the TV guide is their bible.
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I also agree that whites should be ashamed, but most aren’t. They won’t take responsibility for anything that happens today or anything that happened in the past. Some of them believe in burying their heads in the sand hoping it would “go away” somehow. Some of them prefer to blame the group they’ve oppressed for so long. Some prefer to “lighten” it up to make it seem not as horrific as it is and was. Still, they believe they’re basically good??? It’s insanity at its worst.
I tell ya, if white folks want to truly live happy lives, they need to face the truth instead of running away from it and putting on a show.
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“I agree with that. I think that is part of why whites feel the need to demonize blacks. They make a big deal out of black crime, for example – and yet they know that much bigger crimes than robbing 7-Elevens are being committed against blacks by whites, both in the past and the present.”
Well 7-11 clerks getting murdered on the job by ghetto thugs is a pretty big crime if you ask me.
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zek said, “In your fairytale world, I’m sure treating people equally really does mean everybody gets a fair shake, but in the real world, racism ensures that equality never even gets a chance to get out of the gate.”
What exactly would you have persons who may face racism-based challenges do to improve themselves that’s different from generally applicable common sense?
Would you have them just wait around until the world changes to make their lives easier? That advice sounds completely disempowering.
“You’re too simplistic and naive Randy, too wrapped-up in your privilege to actually SEE, and way, way, way too indoctrinated to understand that equality needs to be predicated on the fact that we’re all actually being treated equally, as individuals and as groups.”
My wife escaped 3rd world SE Asian poverty primarily due to parents who had an unwavering focus on education. Many of her friends have a similar story, and these folks are a big part of our social circle. Are they “privileged” too?
I’d love to be a fly on the wall as one of you comfortable Berkeley-type academics tries to explain to any of them how they’re actually oppressed “Womyn of Color” who have been unfairly held down by the xenophobic white patriarchy.
I’ll give you about 30 seconds before the first “cracka please” tiger-eye appears.
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I see what you are saying tyrone, Abagond and Blaque Ink.
But I don’t think anyone really needs to feel ashamed. Shame might be justified but it really isn’t very productive. I mean how different from shame is guilt? We know white guilt don’t do shit.
I think anger would be a more productive emotion. Racism in my mind isn’t really something we do, It’s something we absorb like a fish absorbs mercury. It becomes part of us but it’s not “of” us. So that makes me pretty angry. It makes me angry that we all have to grow up in a world polluted by racism.
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jas0nburns said:
“It makes me angry that we all have to grow up in a world polluted by racism.”
Co-sign to infinity…and beyond!! 😎
My anger is the quiet kind – I use it in constructive means. I may not change the world, but I can affect and impact my own little corner of it.
I’m glad to see sensible statements from you, BI, sam, zek, and others. Gives me hope that my fellow humanoids aren’t completely hopeless! 😀
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FG: Well 7-11 clerks getting murdered on the job by ghetto thugs is a pretty big crime if you ask me.
No one disputes that murder is wrong, FG. However, it’s just as terrible as a suburdan kid shooting up a school.
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“Would you have them just wait around until the world changes to make their lives easier? That advice sounds completely disempowering.”
Where do you get this from? Who said they were waiting around?
Saying that someone faces adversity is not the same as saying they refuse work to better themselves. Your response was dishonest and lazy. Which is odd since your all about personal responsibility and hard work.
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I’d love to be a fly on the wall as one of you comfortable Berkeley-type academics tries to explain to any of them how they’re actually oppressed “Womyn of Color” who have been unfairly held down by the xenophobic white patriarchy.
I’d prefer you stay human so you can clean up after everyone!
What exactly would you have persons who may face racism-based challenges do to improve themselves that’s different from generally applicable common sense?
Go to BINGO or play the lottery. Barring that, cross yourself and kiss your arse goodbye!
Would you have them just wait around until the world changes to make their lives easier? That advice sounds completely disempowering.
No need to, with you around, they could achieve plenty-if they pick up after themselves!
@Uncle Milton:
Thanks for the advice!
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My wife escaped 3rd world SE Asian poverty primarily due to parents who had an unwavering focus on education. Many of her friends have a similar story, and these folks are a big part of our social circle. Are they “privileged” too?
Okay, if you’re going to keep bringing up your Sesame Street diversity as some sort of self-righteous justification for being racist, then I’m going to raise you by my Black girlfriend and my being Jewish.
You have NO IDEA, no matter who your wife is, what privilege means when nobody carves Sw@stik@s on your walls, or makes anti-Semitic jokes to your face. You have NO IDEA when nobody tries to deny that your ancestors died during a genocide. You have NO IDEA, because you never have to live with it.
I’m not from Berkeley (though I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re family came from Bakersfield) and I’m not comfortable at all. I work for a living, and go to college, and pay for it myself. But none of that has anything to do with the fact that YOU are fundamentally incapable of getting your head out of your arse, and see that People of Color don’t stand around waiting for the world to get better. In fact, quite the opposite, the main reason things *have* gotten better (relatively speaking) is *because* of PoC working hard to overcome racism.
The only reason I am even alive right now is because my family had the determination to escape pogroms and ghettos and camps, and then try to build a life for themselves in a country that saw them as second-class citizens and Christ-killers.
You think waving all your PoC friends is going to suddenly make you not-racist? Hah! The fact that you’re doing so only proves how insanely racist you truly are. You may not burn crosses or put on a hood, but as surely as any of them you are complicit in our country’s national disease of racism.
Pretending otherwise is naive, and disgusting.
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First of all, let me be honest and admit I haven’t read all of the comments. So I am sorry if this was already discussed.
I think one important thing about black shame (and general shame oft hat sorts) that makes it different than the regular shame is the fact you are feeling ashamed even when you know you did nothing wrong, quite the opposite. And by “regular shame” I mean being ashamed of something bad you’ve done.
Now. When a person builds a collective identity, he or she identifies with a group. Group’s success is seen as personal success, and bad things are also taken personally. So when someone who belongs to your group does something wrong, you feel ashamed.
But it’s still not the whole thing. Black shame, I think, goes beyond that. It goes beyond “I am ashamed of what this black person did” because I am also black… It’s the fear of knowing for sure this black person’s wrongdoings will be seen as yours, too.
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@zek j evets:
A-freaking-men!!!! Very well said!!!!!
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abagond I suggested this topic!
*chic noir stomps foot*
& thank you for writing a post.
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obsidian O: Because Cosby said outloud what both White AND BLACK people had been saying in private, FOR YEARS now. Why the need to cover that up, Cynic? Too embarrassed or something? I thought you said you werent concerned about what other people did or didn’t do – if that’s true, why does what Cosby said bother you so?”
So you’ve come around huh??? Cause I recall you and I have an epic battle on this topic on your former blog and you refussed to admit this.
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I don’t think any blk person here can deny that we have a serious crime issue in the blk community.
Now here’s where it gets interesting. The bulk of blk crime is directed at other blks. I don’t the racists care about pookie shooting De’Andre much. They just care about their “people’s” safety.
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Jason: I see what you are saying tyrone, Abagond and Blaque Ink.
But I don’t think anyone really needs to feel ashamed. Shame might be justified but it really isn’t very productive. I mean how different from shame is guilt? We know white guilt don’t do shit.
I think anger would be a more productive emotion. Racism in my mind isn’t really something we do, It’s something we absorb like a fish absorbs mercury. It becomes part of us but it’s not “of” us. So that makes me pretty angry. It makes me angry that we all have to grow up in a world polluted by racism.
I feel what you’re saying, Jason, but I was saying, like in my blogs, why is it blacks should feel ashamed for the actions of someone else who looks like us while whites are given the privilege not to? I admit that I still suffer from this, but I try to remedy it one day at a time.
I sometimes think that feeling shame or guilt is better than not feeling anything. To me having no emotion to…anything is a troubling sign.
Anger would be productive, but then again, I wonder what would make people in this society angry enough to create a mass movement or revolution to change the systems and heal the wounds. I know there are some who are doing what they can, but I wonder what would it take to really spark something.
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Obsidian to Abagond
*chic noir dead faints*
Uncle Mu sometimes I think you like to argue for the hell of it. I sais these very same words to you sometime last summer. Or maybe you have turned over a new leaf. Please give me credit for changing your views.
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Zek, Sep, Mira,
Thank you.
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zek said, “Okay, if you’re going to keep bringing up your Sesame Street diversity as some sort of self-righteous justification for being racist, then I’m going to raise you by my Black girlfriend and my being Jewish.”
Actually, I bring them up merely as evidence that hard work overcomes obstacles, and that buying into a victimology paradigm does nothing but crush dreams.
But I’m glad that you went there zek, as I believe it helps to argue my point.
The Jews have certainly faced discrimination and difficult times, and yet today they’re a successful demographic without needing special programs or reduced expectations.
How did this happen? Jews tend to highly value education, and that focus has very predictably paid off.
Now, on to your girlfriend. Do you have different expectations for her because she’s black? I would tend to think that you wouldn’t. I’m just guessing here, but I’d think that you would treat her like any other relationship partner.
So here’s where it all comes together. If the Jews can be successful by dint of their own perseverance, and if you hold your girlfriend to the same expectations as a girl of any other race, then why do you bring up racism to explain away litter and juvenile delinquents in the Mission and Hunter’s Point?
You say that these people can’t be understood with a race-agnostic approach since they carry the burden of historical genocide. How would you treat them then? And why then didn’t your own people need such special consideration?
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Randy,
To answer your question at the end of your response to Zek, you treat them as how you would like to be treated. You treat them with respect, and respect comes from knowledge and understanding.
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“How did this happen? Jews tend to highly value education, and that focus has very predictably paid off.”
Blacks in this country risked life and limb to get a crack at good Education. As soon as they won that right, whites pulled the rug out by fleeing to the burbs and taking all jobs and school funding with them.
Once again, your ignorance is astounding. Please pick up a book.
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Maybe if Blacks (13%) of the nation didn’t commit 50% of the crime it wouldn’t be viewed that way. Is thinking that hard?
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@Joe
-As I have said b4, violent crime does not equal all crime.
-Even if 50% of all crimes were committed by blacks, does that mean 50% of blacks are criminals?
-Which race do you think disproportionately commits white-collar crime? Do you think it would be right to judge all of them based on that?
-Are you aware that most of the black men behind bars are there for non-violent drug offenses?
-Do you acknowledge the fact that multiple surveys have shown that drug dealing & usage is pretty much the same across races(nvm the fact arrests & sentencing isn’t).
-Do admit that blacks are more likely to be searched and given harsher sentences for similar crimes than whites?
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/drugfact/minorities/minorities_ff.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/van-jones/are-blacks-a-criminal-rac_b_8398.html
I am not saying their aren’t crimes disproportionately committed by blacks, but I am NOT going to delude myself into believing the average black person is bad. I am not going pretend white people are perfect. I am not going to excuse racism for any statistic or number concocted by this prejudiced society. Maybe what? Maybe that little “fact” justifies racism? Maybe ppl should be ashamed bc of the actions of individuals? Maybe what?
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@joe
A short LA Times article on racial profiling. Lots of useful information in there.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/oct/23/opinion/oe-ayres23
I’ve posted this b4, but I guess I might as well do it again.
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/e/16711680/wshhA5yGj42eclUn99k6
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Randy,
Acknowledging racism and buying into victimology are two VERY different concepts. Knowing racism exists is a struggle my girlfriend has to deal with on a daily basis, and the amazing thing is is that she succeeds despite the very obvious obstacles she has to overcome. And I don’t treat her any differently than I would treat anyone else I love. I also don’t pretend that I know the first thing about what she goes through with regards to racism — just like she never pretends to know the first thing about what I go through with anti-Semitism. We respect each other. And it’s not really all that difficult. But again, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand…
Here’s why your example about my people doesn’t hold water:
most American-Jews look White. Until somebody “outs” us, we’re basically part of the White club. This has other, far more distressing consequences, but it allows us to bypass a lot of the more overt racism that happens to Black people, and anyone else who looks “ethnic” in America.
Until I mention being Jewish, nobody intentionally stereotypes me. When Jews came to America, they were treated much like the Italians, and the Irish. They were White, but not really. It took a long history of activism to change that, yet Jews were allowed to vote, allowed to hold office, and allowed to work whatever job they could get, as long as they could convince the person they weren’t a shyster. The sheer inhumanity of the Holocaust was also a major factor in the elevation of Jews in America. And contrary to popular belief, not all Jews are rich, or super-smart, or even remotely good with money. So trying to shove over 6 million people into the same little box is a bit simplistic. And I haven’t even gotten to the part about Jews of Color…
But here’s the major thing, so pay attention.
JEWS WERE NEVER ENSLAVED!
Lord almighty. I mean, seriously! What the h-e-double hockey sticks man!
No other group in America was enslaved at the governmental and institutional level! Black people used to be considered property! No better than a chair or fricking coat-hanger! The effects from that sort of thing don’t just “go away” because you suddenly want to treat everyone the same! That sh!t is gonna be a major reason for the difference between Jews and Black people!
It has nothing to do with litter and delinquents. Those aren’t the problems that cause those communities to be decrepit. They’re an effect of a MUCH larger problem that allows people in power — mostly White people — to avoid treating different communities the same! (Hint: it’s called racism.)
Like I said Randy, you need to GO READ A BOOK before you come ’round here trying to debate me about this. You need to educate, and re-educate yourself, because you are woefully ignorant on this subject.
And until you do, you’ll be no better than a part of the problem.
And until you do, I’m not gonna be your Tim Wise, leading you like Moses through The Promised Land of milk, honey, and Racism 101.
Would somebody buy this guy a clue? Get him a life-line? Phone a friend?
How about we ask the audience. Is this man delusional? Because I’m starting to think you might be Randy…
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P.S. @ Blaque Ink:
You’re welcome man =)
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@ The Cynic
That video’s host. He looks familiar. Didn’t he do a similar scenario that had the same results, but with car vandals? .
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@ troll joe
Most Black people know exactly where Black Crime comes from. In every city we know the neighborhoods: Watts, Inglewood , Compton, Harlem, South Chicago, Roxbury…
Then from there you can narrow it down to certain streets, and blocks, and housing projects. Finally you can trace it down to certain drug gangs, and a independent criminals.
You’d be surprised at how much of the Black community actually only find themselves on the receiving end of the violence—but are not violent themselves. You might also be surprised at how a few gang wars will spike the numbers for an entire ethnicity.
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@ The Cynic
Even if 50% of all crimes were committed by blacks, does that mean 50% of blacks are criminals?
Not to derail but…
“No”. Unfortunately that’s the way it’s always misinterpeted though, without fail. It seems like there is an intentional lack of clarification by those who like to bring forth these types of statistics, because they know that those who will repeat them are/will be prone to applying them to entire groups. Much like it’s already done with “Race” and IQ, Muslims and Terrorism, Mexicans and Illegals, Africa and Genocides, etc…etc…
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You are right that alot of older whites steriotype, but the flip side of that is it seems it is allright to blame all whites for the injustice applied by mostly rich elete whites. who by the way arent as prejudice as you think they could care less about poor whites. but if we steriotype the bad apples in the black race that is wrong.
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@ Franklin
Yeah, I have posted those vidz(part1 & 2) b4, but I guess I will do it again. He host often on 20/20.
part 1
part2
Notice how the people in the video I posted earlier claimed that race played no factor in how they reacted to the suspects? That is one of the biggest problems in America. People don’t even know when they are being prejudiced and how that prejudice affects society at large.
@Joe
FYI all of the points in my comment were made to show you the various reasons why your 50% number isn’t that credible. From ur myopic definition of crime to discrepancies btwn who commits them and who actually gets searched/stopped/sentenced.
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@king: (to joe) “You’d be surprised at how much of the Black community actually only find themselves on the receiving end of the violence—but are not violent themselves. You might also be surprised at how a few gang wars will spike the numbers for an entire ethnicity.”
Right. Like Dave Chapelle said once in his show: “We blacks are affraid to live in a ghetto!”.
I do not understand the intellectual sommersaults which these guys like joe do in their heads. They really think that majority of blacks like to live in slums, are crack heads, spend their free time gangbanging, gamble, throw trash around etc.
When you actually visit a place like Compton the real big surprise for a white suburbanite is not the gangs and trash etc. but the fact how many clean and neat houses there are, how many nice yeards there are, how many cars are parked on the streets, how many ordinary normal people actually live there without red or blue bandana over their faces and without “cappin some ass!” all the time. Some whites might be even surprised that there are less guns per capita among the people in Compton than in any freedom yelling small town in the Rockies.
This is getting… I don’t know. People should find out about things before they go saying stuff. Find out, read books, talk to people, go visit them. There are no cannibals in Compton! Really! 😀
Overwhelming majority of the blacks want the same things as we all do: just to live a decent life. How the heck that is so hard to understand???
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jas0nburns said: “Blacks in this country risked life and limb to get a crack at good Education. As soon as they won that right, whites pulled the rug out by fleeing to the burbs and taking all jobs and school funding with them.”
This is an extraordinarily simplistic and reductionist explanation for a complicated situation which can be easily countered by showing that budgets do not necessarily correlate to school performance. Think harder.
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Randy:
Are you for real? It was way less “extraordinarily simplistic” than the stuff you say.
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@ Randy
I don’t like long comments. It may have been simple but check it out, it’s true. Please find one statement in my comment that didn’t happen.
I look at it like this. White people don’t have any institutional racism to deal with and a lot of us are STILL fu*k ups. If we did have to deal with the very real institutional racism blacks face we wouldn’t be any better off in terms of crime, lack of education/income etc than POC. It’s not like racism is insurmountable for POC it’s just that it’s going to significantly increase the number of people who don’t make it because it’s an added obstacle.
A couple extra hurdles in a race doesn’t give you an excuse not to run, it just means you probably won’t get to the finish as fast as people with less hurdles.
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Abagond,
I stand by the claim that budgets do not necessarily correlate to school performance. One only has to examine critical discipline problems at many failing schools to see that dysfunctional families and communities create adverse environments which inhibit learning.
It’s hard to get a good education at a school which needs cops and metal detectors. Behavior problems which create the need for cops and metal detectors are 100% parental responsibility.
I’ll go further out on a limb and suggest that a lack of shame only exacerbates these problems. In a healthy and functioning community, the shared expectations of its members and the webs of interdependency help to keep stray members in line.
You seem like a pretty together guy. How would your family have treated bad grades and severe misbehavior at school?
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“One only has to examine critical discipline problems at many failing schools to see that dysfunctional families and communities create adverse environments which inhibit learning.”
duh. You conveniently ignored the bit about jobs leaving with white flight. Maybe you should look into that aspect of my “simplistic” comment. I imagine a lack of employment opportunities might possibly lead to dysfunctional family environment. (It certainly did in my family)
Consider the study that showed how whites with a felony conviction were more likely to be hired than blacks without a record even when all other qualifications were the same.
That’s quite a big hurdle don’t you think Randy? I couldn’t imagine. Think about how your life might have been different if this was true for you. If you were basically born with the equivalent of a felony record.
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@zek j
“Acknowledging racism and buying into victimology are two VERY different concepts.”
Thank you! I was trying to explain this earlier in a debate with someone here, but I couldn’t find the words. Idk why this is so hard for people to understand.
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Cynic,
Haha, you’re welcome! I feel like I’m back in my undergrad cross-cultural racism class with Randy, Obs, Gorbachev, Chuck, and the like. I might as well just start copy-pasting my old essays instead of writing new ones!
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zek said: “Acknowledging racism and buying into victimology are two VERY different concepts.”
Agreed. However, you seem to be more than just acknowledging racism. You’re saying that the existence of racism necessarily must inform public policy, otherwise you’d hold the minority residents of the Mission and Hunter’s Point to the same standards as the gay whites in the Castro.
“most American-Jews look White. Until somebody “outs” us, we’re basically part of the White club. This has other, far more distressing consequences, but it allows us to bypass a lot of the more overt racism that happens to Black people, and anyone else who looks “ethnic” in America.”
Are you suggesting that the Jews are successful in America because they can sometimes pass for white? Either you’re being completely disingenuous, or else you’re throwing 6000+ years of Jewish culture under the bus.
The Jews are successful in America due to hard work and a focus on education. Don’t sell your people short and pretend like culture doesn’t matter. Every other Jewish comedian you see does a bit about the classic “high expectations Jewish mother”. I’ve met a few of them myself. Jewish success is not an accident of melanin density and you know it.
“JEWS WERE NEVER ENSLAVED!”
Actually, they were enslaved by the Romans, Mongols, and other Jews, just to name a few. Check your history.
“It has nothing to do with litter and delinquents.
I’m sorry to say, but that’s an inaccurate statement. Delinquents exist because parents aren’t minding their children and ensuring that they are getting an education.
Do you know what successful white, black, hispanic, jewish, and asian families all have in common? They hold their children accountable for their education, and the results are predictable. You can’t “Tim Wise” your way out of that one.
And as for my “Sesame Street” diversity claim, I bring it up as an example of how people who were born into dire circumstances far worse than what we’re likely to ever experience in America can nonetheless come to this country and build a stable life.
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@randy: when excately were the jews enslaved by the mongols?
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“I bring it up as an example of how people who were born into dire circumstances far worse than what we’re likely to ever experience in America can nonetheless come to this country and build a stable life.”
It’s called the model minority myth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority
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Randy,
Actually, they were enslaved by the Romans, Mongols, and other Jews, just to name a few. Check your history.
You do realize we’re talking about America, right??
You’re saying that the existence of racism necessarily must inform public policy
It already does. White racism already changes public policy. We saw it in Katrina. We see it prosecution of Black people for nonviolent drug offenses disproportionately to Whites who commit similar, and even more egregious offenses.
I’m sorry to say, but that’s an inaccurate statement. Delinquents exist because parents aren’t minding their children and ensuring that they are getting an education.
Delinquents and litter don’t make the buildings deteriorate. They don’t choose how often garbage trucks come by, or control the attitudes of police officers. They don’t control the power-lines or sewage systems or anything at the structural level that is the main reason why so many communities are falling apart.
Holding children accountable is all well and good, and obviously we should do that. But that isn’t going to change structural racism until those children grow up. And they can’t grow up, or have a chance to change the world if they’re growing up in communities with underfunded schools and poorly maintained projects.
Are you suggesting that the Jews are successful in America because they can sometimes pass for white? Either you’re being completely disingenuous, or else you’re throwing 6000+ years of Jewish culture under the bus.
Since I AM Jewish, and since you have to demonstrate any education on the subject, why don’t you let the person who’s actually Jewish decide what it is I’m actually suggesting.
Which is — that since most American-Jews are White, they were allowed to mix into mainstream American society with less repercussions in much the same way that the Irish, and Italian communities have done. Furthermore, Jews were never enslaved in America, and by simply NOT being Black, they already had a leg-up on Black people with regards to gaining success for their communities. Yes there is a focus on education, and this stems in large part from Judaism’s focus on learning the Torah, and other important holy books regarding God’s commandments.
Black people were enslaved, refused basic voting rights, segregated even in places where they were the majority, and unless they could “pass”, they were that much easier for racist Whites to identify and oppress.
I bring it up as an example of how people who were born into dire circumstances far worse than what we’re likely to ever experience in America can nonetheless come to this country and build a stable life.
You bring it up because you buy into the American Dream. And that’s fine. But you must understand that VERY FEW individuals actually succeed against a stacked deck. Not because they didn’t try hard enough. But because the deck is stacked.
Your failure to understand anything that I am saying is indicative of a person who has yet to deal with the fundamental problems of our world at a personal level. And since you have yet to educate yourself on… well, ANY of these issues, attempting to talk with you is like talking with a child. I have to explain EVERYTHING.
YOU need to educate yourself. Not expect US to do it for you.
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@Sam:
The Mongols never enslaved the Jews. In fact, when the Mongols invaded Europe, they actually freed the Jews AND the Muslims. At the time both groups were being persecuted by Christians. However this was done mostly to help the Mongols fight against the Christians.
Among the Romans, many Jews were enslaved, but not a majority of Jews were enslaved like a majority of Blacks were enslaved. Most Jews, especially ones who conformed, were allowed to live peacefully, depending on the Emperor and on how rebellious Israel was at the time.
Also, when Jews did own slaves — way way back in the Biblical era — they were mostly non-Jews. The only Jews that had Jewish slaves were Babylonians, for a very short time until they returned to Jerusalem.
Randy seems interested in not only distorting American history, but Jewish history as well.
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Randy:
You keep assuming that Jewish and Asian Americans suffer from the same degree of racism as blacks in America. And that is based on what?
You also keep on with the Oprah Fallacy. Just because some people can escape poverty does not mean everyone can. That assumes there is no such thing as structural poverty. In your Fairy Tale America poverty levels are determined more by bedtimes than by the economy or government policy.
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In the Garverite Universe, people died on the Titanic because they walked too slow, probably due to bad parenting. Not because there were not enough lifeboats. Not because many third-class passengers were held at gunpoint below deck to let first and second class on the lifeboats first. (Despite the “women and children first” rule, nearly half of all third-class women died while only 3% of first-class women did.)
Because everything must be blamed on personal failings. Because to do otherwise would be disempowering victimology.
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jas0nburns said: “It’s called the model minority myth.”
According to the article you posted, that is not correct. Wikipedia states:
“It is most commonly used to label one ethnic minority higher achieving than another ethnic minority”
I’m not saying one minority is better than another. Rather, I’m saying that a common set of principles will lead to success for any group of people.
zek said: “They don’t control the power-lines or sewage systems or anything at the structural level that is the main reason why so many communities are falling apart.”
So you’re saying that the problem is infrastructure not attitude? I can show you examples where people in bad infrastructures thrived, and people provided with good infrastructure did not. Let me know if you’d like to see that.
“Which is — that since most American-Jews are White, they were allowed to mix into mainstream American society with less repercussions in much the same way that the Irish, and Italian communities have done.”
So the Jews faced discrimination, but not as much as black folks due to their skin color? I would agree. However, how do you explain the fact that Jews have higher educational achievement and higher incomes than non-Jewish whites in America?
Doesn’t your racism model predict that they’d have lower achievements than whites?
“You bring it up because you buy into the American Dream. And that’s fine. But you must understand that VERY FEW individuals actually succeed against a stacked deck. Not because they didn’t try hard enough. But because the deck is stacked.”
I do believe in the “American Dream” in part because I married someone who achieved it against what you would characterize as nearly impossible odds. She’s got at least 2 dozen friends from home who have done exactly the same using the same formula. It was no fluke.
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Abagond said: “Because everything must be blamed on personal failings. Because to do otherwise would be disempowering victimology.”
I do not believe this, and apologize if I’ve not been clear.
There is no question that structural forces have created difficulties for populations of people, including minorities. I don’t dispute this.
My point is that the “way forward” is (basically) the same for all people, regardless of their race, religion, historical discrimination, etc. I’m looking forwards not backwards.
Success is achieved by overcoming obstacles and striving in the face of adversity. What I find disempowering is the indoctrination of young people (particularly minorities in this context) into the mindset that great racial forces are arrayed against them, so why even try.
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Randy,
how do you explain the fact that Jews have higher educational achievement and higher incomes than non-Jewish whites in America?
Jews are 2% of the population in America. Your statement is hilariously ignorant. Do you assume that every Jew is Mark Zuckerberg? Most Jews are middle-class, just like most Whites. You’re stereotyping right now, and it shows you really do know nothing about this.
It was no fluke.
Yes, it was a fluke. There are always exceptions and success stories. Why? Because life isn’t simplistic. Of course there are examples of people achieving a lot due to hardship, but that’s why their stories are so memorable BECAUSE they had to struggle against things which they shouldn’t have had to! MLK has his own national holiday because he struggled and succeed DESPITE White racism, not just because he wanted equality for Black people. (Shoot, that’s just being a human being.)
You know Nigerians are the single most educated group in America? The single most. I’d say they’re an example of a group that’s thrived despite hardship. Yet why aren’t Nigerian-Americans suddenly all over the place in the media, in the government, in academia?
The problem with you Randy is you’re trying to make exceptions the rule, and because you’re so ignorant you refuse to learn anything, even when you admit, There is no question that structural forces have created difficulties for populations of people, including minorities. I don’t dispute this.
And you STILL blame Black people as a group for most of their problems??
Nobody’s saying don’t try. In fact, quite the opposite. We’re trying all right here, right now, in our daily lives to overcome racism, anti-Semitism, and all other forms of prejudice. But I’m not going to victim-blame somebody who fails because they never got a fair shot to begin with. I might blame them for the things they can control, but not the things they can’t.
Seriously man, can’t you even see yet?? You’re a racist. It’s not an insult. Just a fact. Stop trying to justify it, and start trying to change it.
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@zek: I knew this, juts wanted to give Randy some more rope 😀
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zek said: “Jews are 2% of the population in America. Your statement is hilariously ignorant. Do you assume that every Jew is Mark Zuckerberg? Most Jews are middle-class, just like most Whites. You’re stereotyping right now, and it shows you really do know nothing about this.”
According to the “Jewish Federations of North America” website (http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=46193), 55% of Jewish adults have received a college degree vs. 29% of the total US population. Jews had a household income 29% higher than the median U.S. household income.
Perhaps I’m not so “hilariously ignorant” as you suggest.
“Yes, it was a fluke” [referring to my wife’s emigration from SE Asia to the US and subsequent work success]
That’s an uncharacteristically uninformed statement to make, given that you neither know nor have asked about the particulars. Regretfully, you erode your credibility with such a comment.
Had you asked, I could have explained about the H1B process, and described manner in which my wife’s family established their priorities to support the education of the children.
Not only have a great many of her friends similarly emigrated to the US, but all of her siblings (and several cousins) have migrated to 1st world industrialized countries to work professional careers, each having started out without indoor plumbing, food security, reliably clean water, consistent electrical service, or even a solid roof over their heads. True story bro.
“And you STILL blame Black people as a group for most of their problems??”>
As I clarified to Abagond, my focus is on the way forward. I happen to believe that a common set of principles and practices will benefit just about everyone, and open the doors to significant success milestones.
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@Blaque Ink:
You’re welcome – and, thank YOU for this excellent topic!
@zek j evets:
To answer your question, aimed at all of us, I’d say “very delusional”! Obsessives tend to repeat the same tired nonsense so often that it becomes true for them, even when mountains of evidence prove otherwise. Then the delusional individual tries to pick and choose “what they actually meant” or “what the basis of the argument is”, so long as it continues to support the delusion.
For example: Michael Jackson obviously had many cosmetic alterations done to his appearance, yet when asked in interviews about them, he would always claim that he’d only had “one or two” procedures done. When pressed further on this, he would leap to the “I have vitiligo” excuse and drop the subject, or change it to something else entirely. That man was extremely talented, but also, and tragically, extremely delusional about a number of things…
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zek:
Most Jews are middle-class, just like most Whites.
Well yes true.. but it is also true to say that most Blacks are middle-class, just like most Gentile Whites. (Do you put Jews in a separate group from Whites…?) But much of our discussion on this board is about the relative differences between Black and Whites… eg Whites on average have higher incomes, wealth, schooling, etc than Blacks. The same can be said for Jews vs Gentile Whites.. Jews on average have higher incomes, wealth, and higher educational achievement than Gentile Whites.
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(1)) Randy
“…There is no question that structural forces have created difficulties for populations of people, including minorities. I don’t dispute this…”
(2) Then Randy again:
“…As I clarified to Abagond, my focus is on the way forward. I happen to believe that a common set of principles and practices will benefit just about everyone, and open the doors to significant success milestones…”
Simple question:
Randy how do you propose tackling those “structural forces” you specifically mention in statement (1) which might prevent anyone despite adopting a common set of principles to open the door to significant success milestones… in statement (2) ???
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@kwamla: 😀 good one!
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Well, I have to be honest. I have felt that shame when it comes to black folks, especially when it comes to watching black folk act crazy or immoral on television. Whenever I used to watch court shows or other reality shows, I would wince inside when I watched a black person act shameful. I am not as embarrassed anymore but i still experience “black shame” from time to time. You are right when you say that because we don’t control what is on tv, we are far more likely to watch blacks act negatively than in an honorable fashion. To me, the American media has done a very good job in making many blacks believe that there is something inherently wrong with themselves. Sometimes I get bored with American tv, and I decide to watch African cinema. The plots in African movies can sometimes be simple but at least the blacks in these movies are not usually stereotypes. Blacks in African cinema remind me of regular people. They are not constantly portrayed in a negative fashion. And I don’t feel that “black shame” when I watch those movies. These movies make me feel that blacks are human, capable of both good and bad. American media doesn’t allow me to feel that way.
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@Ano
You said that you hate black on black racism more than white on black racism. Well, it is all bad to me!! I admit that when you experience black on black racism, you feel you can’t find comfort among your own people. I mean, after whites have abused you, who do you run to for comfort? If blacks have way too much “shame” concerning each other, they will betray each other, rather they are intentionally doing it or not!!!But white racism is very dangerous also. Don’t underestimate white racism because it can damage your life in so many different ways. So all racism, no matter who is doing it, is bad to me!!!
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@Jeri
“@Ano You said that you hate black on black racism more than white on black racism. Well, it is all bad to me!”
This helps clarify a bit what I was saying up thread. Maybe we shouldn’t think of racism in terms of black racism/white racism. Maybe it’s all the same thing and we should direct more attention to that. I don’t know why I feel this is important, maybe because if we look at it as an ailment we share instead of something we “do” to each other than people might be less defensive about it. I mean there’s know arguing the fact that WP are super defensive about racism right from the jump. Like it’s an attack word. I think the fact that we are afraid of being seen as racist and also because we know on some level that we WOULD be seen as racist if POC could read our minds causes us to avoid the topic altogether and basically stay ignorant.
So maybe the idea that racism is basically a shared illusion that both blacks and whites suffer from yet effects us in different ways might be a good thing. I don’t know, at least that way whites might be able to drop the defensive posture.
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Jeri, I know what you mean. I felt, and still feel the same way. For me, it’s a very painful and depressing feeling felt by a lot of blacks in a white society. Still, the question is why should blacks or minorities have to experience guilt or shame when one or a few screw up, but when whites screw up no matter how many of them do, the shame isn’t shared by other whites? That in itself is an example of an unequal society.
Personally, I think it’s a topic that deserves attention.
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I almost forgot. This link to an article I’ve read may help give some more insight into this matter:
http://ap.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/32/4/338
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Kwamla asked: “Randy how do you propose tackling those “structural forces” you specifically mention in statement (1) which might prevent anyone despite adopting a common set of principles to open the door to significant success milestones… in statement (2) ???”
Great question. I will attempt to explain why I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to tackle the legacies from these forces through policy.
First, let’s reverse engineer what a successful community looks like:
1. Intact families
2. Utmost prioritization of education
3. Parenting delayed until the completion of studies
4. Community and cultural values placed on education
We lack the moral willpower (not to mention ability and legal basis) to address the above items through policy. Without those characteristics, people in poor communities are likely to remain poor.
I state that people are responsible for elevating their own families simply because it works when nothing else does, as the underlying causes of endemic poverty are out of the reach of social programs and policy.
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the underlying causes of endemic poverty are out of the reach of social programs and policy.
You do realize, Randy, that if we took out our military budget for the next fiscal year, we could feed the entire planet? Sounds like social programs and policy COULD address the endemic problems of poverty.
But if the above example is too “socialist” for you, then try these:
I notice you conveniently forget that segregation-created poverty wasn’t out of reach for the Civil Rights movement when we dismantled racist legislation, or that anti-Semitic poverty wasn’t out of reach for Holocaust survivors when they got reparations and the creation of an entire country!
I notice you conveniently left out Social Security, public education, public transportation, the police, the fire department, and a whole cornucopia of government services that address social problems the ordinary citizenry cannot.
Yet, when those same institutions break down, are mismanaged, or unequally divided — mostly through White racism in this case — you say “Dang, the school’s are falling apart! Those families better step up…”
Seriously!? When you see a school falling apart, your first thought is to blame the families of the kids who go there? I mean, even somebody really simple would blame the janitor first!
I state that people are responsible for elevating their own families simply because it works when nothing else does
This is no excuse for structural Racism. All you are doing is apologizing for it, and then victim-blaming people for not succeeding against it.
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P.S. The problem with the school is that for you it’s Black, and so you blame it on the people. But when it’s White — or Asian — you blame something else. So typically racist.
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“Seriously!? When you see a school falling apart, your first thought is to blame the families of the kids who go there? I mean, even somebody really simple would blame the janitor first!”
well actually I’m going to agree with randy (to a degree) here.
I think failing schools and students have more to do with the communities and the families than the school system. I think that in neighborhoods with a large number of broken families and bad/lax parenting there really isn’t much teachers can do (by traditional means.)
I differ from Randy in my belief that I think it’s racism that is to blame for the high number of broken families and bad parenting/ low priority on education etc.
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Jason,
I was speaking strictly in the “dirtiness” of the school, per Randy’s assertion that Black people need to clean up after themselves more apparently.
But that said I find that school systems are grossly underfunded and understaffed, especially nowadays, and especially nowadays in low-income neighborhoods. State money should go to the schools that need it most, but instead the money goes to schools with better test scores. (Merit-based funding.) I see that as a double-edged sword: yeah it rewards good schools, but it also furthers drives down schools that aren’t doing as well. In academic parlance we call this “structural reinforcement”. Or, if you prefer, a vicious cycle.
But the dirtiness?? Pur-lease. They keep USC clean as a silver-spoon yet it’s surrounded by all those “dirty Black people”, according to Randy.
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@ zek
Ah, I thought you meant falling apart like the school that Obsidian was talking about either in this thread or another one. As in poor academic performance, drop out rates, violence etc.
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zek said: “P.S. The problem with the school is that for you it’s Black, and so you blame it on the people. But when it’s White — or Asian — you blame something else. So typically racist.”
Your ad-hominem comments are weak and unsubstantiated, as I’ve not specified race as being intrinsic to either the problem of poverty or the way out of it.
“I notice you conveniently left out Social Security, public education, public transportation, the police, the fire department, and a whole cornucopia of government services that address social problems the ordinary citizenry cannot.
Yet, when those same institutions break down, are mismanaged, or unequally divided — mostly through White racism in this case — you say “Dang, the school’s are falling apart! Those families better step up…”
You haven’t addressed my argument about the 4 characteristics of successful communities (intact families, utmost prioritization of education, parenting delayed until the completion of studies, community and cultural values placed on education). But I’ll go ahead and counter your rambling argument anyways.
Firstly, you should understand that the majority of poor people in the US are white. How does your racism model explain that? Obviously it can’t.
Furthermore, it’s easy to demonstrate that groups of people of all races and wealth levels who don’t meet the 4 characteristics I’ve mentioned are prone to economic hardship. Concordantly, groups of people of all races and wealth levels who do meet the 4 characteristics tend to thrive. Examples provided upon request.
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Randy,
As I read here…Zek has done more to address your own argument than you have to address it.!
Even if I were to accept your 4 characteristics of successful communities. Which I don’t…and would say are very narrow and extremely conservatively focused.
But for the sake of your own argument lets leave this aside and say your right. These are the qualities every family or communities of people should endorse and embrace for success…
What about those difficulties you mentioned…Remember these are your own words:
“…There is no question that structural forces have created difficulties for populations of people, including minorities. I don’t dispute this…”
What do we with those families or communities who shun or are incapable of taking on and enshrining those success generating characteristics? (for whatever reason)
What do we do with them if they refuse to adopt the characteristics which might allow them to overcome those structural forces?
This is part of your own argument Randy which you clearly are not disputing but then also are not offering any practical solutions towards. Even if you say society should do “nothing”. Society still has to administer and cater for this none thriving population of peoples.
So what would you suggest society should does?
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Kwamla asks: “What do we with those families or communities who shun or are incapable of taking on and enshrining those success generating characteristics? (for whatever reason)
What do we do with them if they refuse to adopt the characteristics which might allow them to overcome those structural forces?”
You can see the difficulty of the situation. I think the first step is to bravely and honestly face the causes of ongoing poverty. Society must then decide the extent to which recipients of help should be asked to concede a bit of freedom in exchange for assistance.
Budgets for civic services such as transportation and firefighting neither caused cultural problems such as out-of-wedlock births and the need for schools to employ metal detectors and they can’t cure them.
Pretending that culture isn’t a major part of the problem of ongoing poverty is to bury one’s head in the sand. It’s dishonest and unhelpful. Courage is required.
One promising strategy is conditional cash transfers, which Wikipedia defines as:
“Conditional cash transfer (CCT) programs aim to reduce poverty by making welfare programs conditional upon the receivers’ actions. The government only transfers the money to persons who meet certain criteria. These criteria may include enrolling children into public schools, getting regular check-ups at the doctor’s office, receiving vaccinations, or the like.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_Cash_Transfer
Ultimately, the task of saving populations of people in a free society from their own poverty-perpetuating choices (regardless of how they came to that condition) is extraordinarily difficult.
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We lack the moral willpower (not to mention ability and legal basis) to address the above items through policy. Without those characteristics, people in poor communities are likely to remain poor.
Randy, on the one hand you espouse minimal if any government involvement in people’s lives. Then you switch positions and call for some sort of laws which are government intervention of a sort, for poor people. What do you actually believe or do you know? As for conditional cash transfers that sounds suspiciously like a form of eugenics to me. Perhaps that’s your solution? I find your solutions trite as you presume that all these people are the same. This post is about black shame and its’ effects, not about poverty and how to alleviate it. But since you mention poverty if you want to alleviate poverty, get rid of capitalism and bring on socialism. After all how many tv, stereos, cars etc does one need?
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Randy,
I can see why you’d call my argument ad hominem.
(Even though it’s technically not — so many people use that phrase and I kinda want to quote Mandy Patinkin as Inigo in The Princess Bride by saying, “You keep using that word. I dunno think it means what you think it means”, but I digress…)
Except I believe it is factual, based on the views you’ve expressed here, hyperfocusing on Black and Hispanic communities while simultaneously holding up lone examples of Asian people (mostly your wife) as some kind of “exception that disproves the rule” (which is another classic denial of racism, to use exceptionalism like that). But why do you blame Black and Hispanic people for problems you admit they face that aren’t even their fault, and are a serious hindrance to living a good life? Why do you engage in victim-blaming and denial?
Your arguments about 4 classic examples of a good community are ethnocentric and naive. Communities are more than four things you think are important. There is more than one way to live successfully. Also, those 4 things are not unique to successful communities; unsuccessful (whatever that means to you) communities have those as well. Why? Outside structural forces. Some great examples would colonialism in India, Africa, and Latin America. Try reading Jomo Kenyatta’s Facing Mount Kenya for a start.
But that aside, Black people are disproportionately poorer (percentage-wise) than White people, especially in big cities, yet they’re around 12% of the population in America. The same for crime — Black people are disproportionately incarcerated compared to White people, even though more White people are criminals over all. Why is this? Racism. And it’s nothing so simplistic as cross-burning or anything. It’s actually very complex. Probably why you’re so reticent to study up on it. (Among other reasons.)
But like I said, I make my arguments based on your own views that you’ve expressed here on this post. And everyone here seems to agree with me, more or less, that: 1) you’re racist, 2) you’re wrong, and 3) you need to educate yourself on these issues because you obviously know nothing about them.
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***Seriously!? When you see a school falling apart, your first thought is to blame the families of the kids who go there? I ***
Family background, student motivation and ability are the main factors in school success. Read the Coleman Report. Or Robert Weissberg’s ‘Bad Students, Not Bad Schools’.
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zek said: “Except I believe it is factual, based on the views you’ve expressed here, hyperfocusing on Black and Hispanic communities while simultaneously holding up lone examples of Asian people (mostly your wife) as some kind of “exception that disproves the rule” (which is another classic denial of racism, to use exceptionalism like that).”
I haven’t focused (hyper or otherwise) on black and hispanic communities, nor have I stated that my wife and her friends/family’s success is due to their ethnicity.
You should probably be a bit ashamed that as an academic you’re employing both poor reading comprehension and flawed logic.
You apparently forgot that I also included Jewish people and African immigrants as examples of folks who have engaged in education-focused parenting which has produced socioeconomic success.
“But why do you blame Black and Hispanic people for problems you admit they face that aren’t even their fault, and are a serious hindrance to living a good life? Why do you engage in victim-blaming and denial?”
More poor reading comprehension. That is not what has been stated.
“But that aside, Black people are disproportionately poorer (percentage-wise) than White people, especially in big cities, yet they’re around 12% of the population in America. The same for crime — Black people are disproportionately incarcerated compared to White people, even though more White people are criminals over all.”
In those two sentences you’ve miscombined rates and absolute numbers twice.
“Your arguments about 4 classic examples of a good community are ethnocentric and naive.”
There’s the magic cop-out. Studying is ethnocentric! You sir demonstrate your own racism quite vividly. Guess what black folks, your “white brother” zek thinks that not having children out of wedlock and raising your children to value education isn’t a “black thing”.
I’m open to criticism regarding my viewpoints, but these reflexive attacks are just sloppy and weak. Try harder.
While you’re at it, perhaps you can find examples of large populations of people in the US who have economic security without meeting those 4 characteristics (something similar).
I’m not talking about isolated populations of farmers here and there, but groups of a significant size such that one could reasonably assert that they’re strategy is applicable to a broad demographic.
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God I just experienced something like this. Whites judged me on what some black guy I don’t even know did. Nowadays, whenever I deal with blacks who are the embodiment of black stereotypes, I get embarrassed. What they do will have a reflection on me out of force. White people will judge me on the most idiotic black person ever. I am reminded of this in my economy class. My white professor is hated by every single student, but she tends to be more helpful to whites believing they have a better chance at passing her class, with black students, she’ll lead them around in circles.
And people wonder why I don’t trust white people anymore.
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@ Zek:
Sugrue had an op-ed in the New York Times on Sunday:
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I think black shame might be an American thing. Coming from a country where blacks and indians are the majority I’ve never really felt like that. I would feel that way if someone from a much more meaningful group to me…like say who shares the same religious views I do, did something really bad, THEN i would feel shame. But skin color? No. That;s not enough to link me to the entire black race. And I’m over saying white people this and white people that. The media shows what ppl WANT to see and what sells. As long as there are black people acting a certain way that the media likes (whether they are a majority or minority) that’s what they will show because that is what ppl want to see. I mean look at BET. It’s a BLACK network. YET it pushes practically all the negative stereotypes of black people and they even glamorize it. SO…I don’t blame the media for the way black people are depicted. PLUS back in my younger days I watched lots of MTV and VH1 and white ppl are depicted just the same. If there are people who are idiotic enough to look at what they see on tv and think all black ppl are like that…well they are dumb and not worth disputing with. In any case I think a lot of that is changing. I see more and more minorities in less stereotypical roles, and depicted in a positive light.
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Abagond,
Wow, that’s a pretty interesting article. Thanks for the link!
Sugrue is probably my favorite writer on urban problems in America, mostly because he writes in specifics instead of generalities. Detroit is one of those working-class cities (unlike say Los Angeles) that stands as a good example of how life in America functions along racial, class, and even gender boundaries. Plus, he’s also a decent writer! ; )
Randy,
Nothing I say to you is going to make sense until you actually start learning a thing or two first. I’m explaining your behavior and how it falls into racial stereotyping and classic White denials of racism, but if you’re too stubborn to learn about race in America, you’ll never understand.
You say “poor reading comprehension” and “sloppy” or “weak”, but that’s because you have no defense against something you refuse to learn about. You can delude yourself, but a little tug on your logic and I unravel more than merely a racist mindset. You also have a deep-seated need to remain ignorant, even past the point of looking ridiculous. You should read Frantz Fanon, who talks a lot about cognitive dissonance in regards to racism.
You apparently forgot that I also included Jewish people and African immigrants as examples of folks who have engaged in education-focused parenting which has produced socioeconomic success.
I already told you why your using Jews as an example was flawed. And actually it was I who brought up African immigrants as an example (Nigerian’s being the single most educated group in America, remember?) and yet you lumped them in with other Black people as being responsible for structural racism that you admit exists.
Your cognitive dissonance is all the more obvious when you consistently ignore the conflicting statistics between different races in America, the lack of equal treatment for PoC communities, a historical tradition of individual and structural racism, White flight, urban decay, and much more. If you refuse to learn anything, then don’t pretend to know everything.
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zek said: “I already told you why your using Jews as an example was flawed.”
You attempted to do this, but I refuted your assertion with facts. Here they are again:
According to the “Jewish Federations of North America” website (http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=46193), 55% of Jewish adults have received a college degree vs. 29% of the total US population. Jews had a household income 29% higher than the median U.S. household income.
“Your cognitive dissonance is all the more obvious when you consistently ignore the conflicting statistics between different races in America, the lack of equal treatment for PoC communities, a historical tradition of individual and structural racism, White flight, urban decay, and much more. If you refuse to learn anything, then don’t pretend to know everything.”
Spare me the “I read the SOC201 textbook and you didn’t, so I’m the expert” argument. If you wish to participate in this discussion, argue the merits of your position. As to your comment, the existence of differences in median income does not directly imply their causes.
Your “racism causes everything” model cannot explain the existence of millions of poor whites. Also, it fails to account for the greater success of Jews in America compared with non-Jewish whites.
But more importantly please explain your claim that intact families and a focus on education is an “ethnocentric” perspective. Why don’t you think that these goals also apply to African-americans?
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***White flight***
There’s also latino flight:
“For example, Fairlie (2002) finds “Latino flight” from public to private schools to be more likely as the population of black students increases. Hence, Latinos may be as indisposed as Anglos, or even more so, to having many black neighbors. Therefore, we expect Latinos to be more likely to move from neighborhoods with large black populations.”
WHITE FLIGHT REVISITED: A MULTIETHNIC PERSPECTIVE ON NEIGHBORHOOD OUT-MIGRATION
Jeremy F. Pais, Scott South, and Kyle Crowder
Popul Res Policy Rev. 2009 June 1; 28(3): 321–346.
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***Your “racism causes everything” model cannot explain the existence of millions of poor whites. Also, it fails to account for the greater success of Jews in America compared with non-Jewish whites.****
Randy,
This is why the likes of Zek HATE studies showing Jews have higher average iqs than other europeans (East Asians are another group with higher average iq scores). It blows their discrimination model to pieces.
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This is why the likes of Zek HATE studies showing Jews have higher average iqs
Because I’m totally a self-hating Jew, yes of course Schwartz, that MUST be the reason!
Or, is it that I just don’t trust IQ as a realistic measurement of intelligence? Hmm…
Randy,
Saying I need to “argue the merits of [my] position” is a cop-out. I’m pointing you to source material that reinforces my position. You have yet to cite anything other than stats on American-Jews who are, at best, ancillary to the discussion of Black shame. You provide no expertise, no study, no training, no credentials of any kind other an uninformed opinion. This is fine, if only you’d admit that you’re talking out of your a**.
By the way, your source comes from 2000-2001… Please pick a study that reflects something DURING the time when Jews first immigrated here and faced significant anti-Semitism, as opposed to now when they face anti-Semitism and have structural methods combat it to some extent.
And again, you’re stating that Jews are a shining example of how different minorities can succeed against institutional racism, yet completely disregarding the fact that most American-Jews are WHITE, were never enslaved in America, and that our disproportionate achievements compared to the rest of American society is in large part due to these favorable factors. And while I’m not going to run in any Oppression Olympics, I do understand the powerful difference between when my father wasn’t allowed to swim in public pools in upstate New York, and when Black people needed an entire piece of legislation just to be allowed to vote almost 100 years after the Civil War!
Yet I’ve never said racism explains everything. I’ve consistently agreed that there are other factors which change, complicate, and even mitigate various things in this argument (however you weren’t paying attention). And in fact, there’s more to discrimination than just racism — there’s sexism, classism, ageism, xenophobia, colonialism, and more besides. You need to learn about the kyriarchy, except I know you won’t.
Apparently you’d rather stick your fingers in your ears like a small child and shout, “NA NA NA NA NA NA” until we all stop leaving comments so you can feel better about being racist.
Well how about this Randy? Why don’t you go read a book, or something, and come back when you’re ready to sit at the grown-ups table.
Okay?
Until then, keep on hating! ; )
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zek,
Your “appeal to authority” attempts to characterize the written word as gospel, which is even more suspect when the author is a polarizing ideologue such as Tom Sugrue.
Even other leftist social scientists have criticized his work. See Richard Kahlenberg’s “Wrong on Race: Why Barack Obama shouldn’t listen to Tom Sugrue.”
http://www.democracyjournal.org/12/6679.php?page=4
But I’m for giving all ideas a fair shake, which is why I ask you to clarify your positions rather than assuming everyone who doesn’t have Tim Wise poster in his dorm room doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
“And again, you’re stating that Jews are a shining example of how different minorities can succeed against institutional racism, yet completely disregarding the fact that most American-Jews are WHITE, were never enslaved in America, and that our disproportionate achievements compared to the rest of American society is in large part due to these favorable factors”
I’m not sure if you’re being careless or disingenuous. Jews in America now EXCEED the educational and financial achievements of non-Jewish whites.
“And in fact, there’s more to discrimination than just racism — there’s sexism, classism, ageism, xenophobia, colonialism, and more besides. You need to learn about the kyriarchy, except I know you won’t.”
You still haven’t responded as to why you think the 4 characteristics of successful communities is “ethnocentric” and doesn’t apply to black folks in America, nor have you listed any groups of people who have been successful without having them.
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@Randy Garver:
Responding to you is like f*rting in a wind tunnel! This is a post about black shame yet you have managed to derail it!
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@herneith: yeah, and you noticed that all of sudden this whole thing became about the jews. Next thing we know this is about how jews are stealing and cheating everything from pure race americans like Randy here 😀
@zek: Let the troll pass away. He knows not what he says 😀
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Haha… I just found this little gem.
King said:
“Oh, that we could simply call for a basin, (like Pontius Pilate) and wash our hands of the historic wrongs of our ancestors…
If my grandfather murders a man, in order to steal his fortune, then uses that money to open a grocery store, which I later inherit, can I deny that I owe his descendants anything?”
Professor Fail said:
“King, no basin needed. My hands are clean.
Yes you can deny it. There is a reason why there is a statute of limitations in the law. Multi-generational greavances serve no purpose and are counter-productive.”
Consider the stupidity of that statement.
If you are living in the house that your father stole from me and then gave to you, you think that your hands are clean?
Your Father’s crime was in stealing it. (past tense)
YOUR crime is in accepting it, and possessing it. (present tense)
There is no statute of limitations on murdering the hope and future of an entire people, much less profiting by it.
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Sam,
Indeed. I guess it’s just difficult to let stupidity pass uncontested, haha! ; )
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a question to my fellow blks here… How do you feel when you see things like this? What goes thru your mind? Abagond take a stab at this please.
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sam said: “@herneith: yeah, and you noticed that all of sudden this whole thing became about the jews. Next thing we know this is about how jews are stealing and cheating everything from pure race americans like Randy here”
I have nothing bad to say regarding the Jews. I’m going somewhere particular with this line of inquiry if zek will answer the questions I posed.
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***sam
@herneith: yeah, and you noticed that all of sudden this whole thing became about the jews. Next thing we know this is about how jews are stealing and cheating everything from pure race americans like Randy here ***
Sam,
Did you actually read Randy’s post? I think you need to at least try and understand the argument someone is making before you make these weird posts.
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Randy,
My own stubborn nature to attempt to help you understand the world as it is aside, unless you plan to educate yourself on the issue so you at least have a grasp of the basics, I don’t really see much profit in further discussion. Because we’ll just be stuck right back here with me telling you things, and you refusing to listen.
Do you know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting to get different results.
I’ll pass on that! =P
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does anyone remember if aba did a post on wht women’s tears. I think he did but I’m not sure. The white woman clealy started this fight. calling the blk girls animals and pushing the two when they wouldn’t move out of her way.
BTW folks, it’s not illegal to eat on the subway in New York City.
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@randy & schwartz: yeah yeah, you are not racists and you love the jews, those super intelligent and smart bunch of devious people who pass as whites and control the world in secrecy. I get it.
@chick noir: white chicks are very good acting politically correct way in public, but trust me: the most stone cold racists I’ve ever met in my life have been white women. They do not burn crosses or join skinhead clubs, but they do it nicely and smiling and just do it and nobodys wiser.
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When I pointed out to zek that Jewish folks in America are succeeding despite various types of discrimination, he answered that it’s because they appear white. Seems reasonable, except then one would expect that Jews would have achievement close to, but still less than that of non-Jewish whites.
Except this is not the case. Jews in America (as well as Indians, Filipinos, African immigrants, etc) greatly exceed the academic and financial achievement of non-Jewish whites.
The leftist groupthink zek and others subscribes to does not allow poor people to be told that their behaviors are perpetuating their poverty, especially if those people are non-white.
Therefore, they must reject the 4 characteristics of success which I’ve laid out:
1. Intact families
2. Utmost prioritization of education
3. Parenting delayed until the completion of studies
4. Community and cultural values placed on education
And yet, almost every Jewish grandmother (and also Chinese and African immigrant grandmothers to name just two more) you’re likely to meet would co-sign those characteristics.
So on the one hand, guys like zek, Tom Sugrue, and Tim Wise know full well that such behaviors are the deadliest weapon against poverty, but they’ve painted themselves in a corner with their race pandering ideology, and so they can’t ever say that publicly.
Why do I care? Because I think this contradiction is down-right evil. They know amongst themselves that education and responsible behavior is the only salvation for poverty, and they practice these in their own communities to predictable effect, but they won’t tell this to other poor folks (especially non-white ones).
For those people, they’ll blame racism, classism, public services budgets etc, helping to keep them trapped in poverty forever.
The very same people who allege to be helping poor minorities are actually making a nice career out of selling them a bankrupt and disempowering ideology.
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this is the conclusion you always jump to. And yeah, some people probably do think that way but you’re lying to yourself if you believe that acknowledgment of and resistance to structural racism is meant to supplant:
1. Intact families
2. Utmost prioritization of education
3. Parenting delayed until the completion of studies
4. Community and cultural values placed on education
It’s not. these things obviously need to be happening as well.
And remember Jewish and Chinese immigrants didn’t have their cultures totally obliterated and erased. Clearly you haven’t given much thought to what that means. You can’t just turn cultural values on and off like a light switch they are passed on from generation to generation. racism cut that cultural transmission off at it’s source a few generations ago and bringing it back isn’t a matter of snapping ones fingers. Or wagging them for that matter.
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Did you actually read Randy’s post? I think you need to at least try and understand the argument someone is making before you make these weird posts.
Why should sam? His posts are infinitely more entertaining than Randy’s. Weird is in the eyes of the beholder.
Why do I care? Because I think this contradiction is down-right evil. They know amongst themselves that education and responsible behavior is the only salvation for poverty, and they practice these in their own communities to predictable effect, but they won’t tell this to other poor folks (especially non-white ones).
You couldn’t give two sh*ts Randy. You are missing one very important equation here and that is the historical trauma of having your culture and identity taken away via slavery. The family structure being destroyed via slavery. The advantage these non-white immigrants have over Black North Americans is that they have a history of intact families despite any poverty experienced, they have not had their culture and language stripped from them. Slavery may have been abolished but the lingering effects are still felt. The advertising of blacks being sub-human since the first slave was brought over doesn’t help either, something I might add , has been a constant ever since.
Now Randy, if anything, you should be commending North American black folk for overcoming and surmounting many of these obstacles, for being resilient in the face of adversity. However, racists of your ilk, I refer to them as the ‘compassionate’ racists, fail to see and acknowledge this. You see racism takes on many aspects, in essence it can be banal, evil, compassionate(the darkies should pull themselves up by their bootstraps kind), the HBDer, the list appears to be endless! You should read some articles on historical trauma it may give you a better understanding as to why things are that way for some blacks.
You and your ilk prefer to look at the negative instead of the positive. Hence you troll the internet looking for stats, ‘articles’ that fit your viewpoint ad-nauseum. If I had the time or inclination, I would do so as well but I don’t. Like most racists you look for the bad before the good. Why Randy? So you can feel superior to these people? The fact of the matter is, is that racism is akin to alcoholism. Sometimes it takes a person a long time to realize or admit that they are alcoholic and begin to deal with it. The same holds forth for racism. Once you admit to it you may be able to deal with it. Repeat after me; “My name is Randy Garver and I am a racist. You will always remain a racist but at least you are on the road to being less so. Just as an alcoholic is.
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@Randy Garver
1. Intact families
2. Utmost prioritization of education
3. Parenting delayed until the completion of studies
4. Community and cultural values placed on education
Ummm… that’s the thing. Everything listed above is NOT African culture. The culture of the black underclass is a direct result of living in a racist society. The difference btwn them and other groups is that they have retained their culture that allows them to succeed and even do better than non-Jewish white Americans. Why do you think the opposite of 1-4 isn’t found w/in Native Americans in the US and Canada? In Maoris, Roma gypsies, Burakumin, and other marginalized groups in their own respective societies? We agree w/ you that these things should change. I don’t know anybody that uses racism as an excuse for their situation. Acknowledging how we got here is not perpetuating poverty among any groups. That is a common misconception that has no truth.
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“The culture of the black underclass is a direct result of living in a racist society.”
but you’re living in the past bro! 😉
Oh wait, my house was built in the 50’s! That means i’m living in the past as well! Oh crap, planet earth in billions of years old! we’re all living in the past noooooo!
Oh never mind, I just realized living in the past is cool as long as it’s something “good” like religion or an Antique dresser, Or grandma’s chocolate chip cookie recipe. If it’s something bad you can just make it disappear from history. Thx Randy!
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Randy:
You are making this into an either/or thing and it is not.
1. Condoleezza Rice’s family did all the good things you advise but they also let her know that to succeed she had to be twice as good as whites. Because until then whites would not see her as their equal. She agrees with that. So do I. This post tells you why that is.
2. Being kept in the dark about the true nature of racism in America is profoundly disempowering if you are not white. Mostly because it leaves you wide open to internalized racism: you BELIEVE all the racist messages that society (black and white) feeds you.
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Italian shame:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/28/jersey-shore-italy-broadcast_n_841355.html
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@King
It’s funny. The ppl on the ‘Jersey Shore’ are shaming Italians even tho some of them aren’t even Italian! One of the girls on the show, JWOW, is actually Spanish/Irish and Snooki is a Chilean who was adopted by Italian Americans. Though, many Chileans do have Italian blood….
I thought Snooki was fully white at first, but she does look as if she could be mestiza to me. One of the guys(I think Ron) is non-Italian also.
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Yes, but they are still airing out a segment of the Italian American culture that many would rather not have to deal with. Lol!
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In the Randyverse, those of us who attempt to get people to see the various structures of oppression in the world are secretly attempting to disempower the same people who are being oppressed! Oh, he’s found our hidden agenda! Because, as well all know, anti-racists are all about keeping the Black man down…
Seriously, the guy is so twisted he’s trying to flip the script so that HE’S the compassionate anti-racist, and WE are the racists keeping People of Color in poverty! Hah, it’s too funny!
However, even more stunningly is that he attempts to know Jewish history better than the Jews! And by only using his highly advanced second-hand knowledge of his wife’s third-world experiences! He’s like George Bush meets MacGyver while on the Blue Collar Comedy Tour!
(By the way, Jews are middle-class overall, just like Black people. We’re disproportionately more educated and in high-paying jobs because, for the same reason Asians dominate in college (particularly in Canada), is because we filled niches nobody wanted to fill. But that kind of success takes a while, and even then is nearly impossible if you’re legally a second-class citizen. Which is why Jews are stereotyped as being successful, because we work hard against adversity. But we didn’t have to deal with the same level of structural oppression as Black people did in America, and yet, most Black people are middle-class. So what does that say about their communities? It says you’re full of it.)
I’m gonna co-sign with Herneith, Abagond, and everyone else who apparently agrees with me (in some respect) that: 1) you’re wrong, 2) you’re a racist, and 3) you need to educate yourself.
Get used to it Randy, because that’s your life =/
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don’t forget about portuguese racism, they collectively hate everyone just like the anglos octavio Mateus a paleontologist , he hates Africa and Africans , and octavio is using Angola to exploit African.
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To Zek:
You do realize, Randy, that if we took out our military budget for the next fiscal year, we could feed the entire planet?
You think you can feed the entire planet on 27.7 cents a day..? Don’t think so. And by the way if we were to eliminate the entire defense department we would still be in the hole for $700 billion.
Calculations for DOD budget and world population.
DOD Budget = 685.1 Billion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
Global Population = 6.775 Billion
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&tdim=true&dl=en&hl=en&q=current+population+of+the+world
Days in the year = 365
685.1 / 6.775 = $101
$101 / 365 = $0.277
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Uncle Milton,
You do realize people live on less than 15 cents a day in Southeast Asia and South America, right? However, I never said feed the entire planet for a year, but even a measly 27 cents a day would be better than the slavery and indentured servitude that sweatshop laborers face to make Nike shoes and GAP t-shirts for our department stores.
Also, you could easily fill that 700 billion with the taxes American-based corporations (like GE) aren’t paying, which includes the tax-breaks they’re getting too.
But that’s getting to be off-topic…
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***on Tue 29 Mar 2011 at 21:11:36 xxxphantomxxx,
don’t forget about portuguese racism, they collectively hate everyone just like the anglos octavio Mateus a paleontologist , he hates Africa and Africans , and octavio is using Angola to exploit African.***
What evidence is there that Mateus hates anyone? He specialises in Dinosaurs.
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Zek,
You do realize people live on less than 15 cents a day in Southeast Asia and South America, right?
Zek very few are in that category… I have traveled extensively in some of poorest countries in SouthEast Asia …and that 15 cents will not pay for their daily food intake…..the very poor of third world countries supplant their incomes by growing their own food. Also, in almost every country there are family members who work overseas and send almost all of their pay back home. Often these remittances are not recorded in per capita income for these countries.
27 cents a day would be better than the slavery and indentured servitude that sweatshop laborers face to make Nike shoes and GAP t-shirts for our department stores.
No it is not… in Vietnam they get paid about 10 times that… obviously not much (and I am against most globalization…) but markedly more than your 27 cents…
I never said feed the entire planet for a year..
No you said you could feed the entire planet with the amount of money that the US spends on Defense…. implicit in that statement is that you are comparing annual or daily expenses for the DOD to the annual or daily expense of feeding the planet… so since that is not what you were saying.. your previous statement needs to be revised.
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“What evidence is there that Mateus hates anyone? He specialises in Dinosaurs.”
Well… would you characterize his attitude towards Dinosaurs as “hostile?” Have you ever seen him exhibit disgust or impatience toward a reptile? Where does he stand amphibians?
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@Uncle Milton.
“…No you said you could feed the entire planet with the amount of money that the US spends on Defense…. implicit in that statement is that you are comparing annual or daily expenses for the DOD to the annual or daily expense of feeding the planet… so since that is not what you were saying.. your previous statement needs to be revised…”
I think your being to narrow, literal and unimaginative with your reasoning. Agree with the general sentiment of what Zek expressed in that statement:
“…You do realize, Randy, that if we took out our military budget for the next fiscal year, we could feed the entire planet?…”
Then if you truly believe this would be possible you can begin to think of imaginative ways of making it happen.
So for example it would only take 100 million people who are prepared to forgo their 0.27 cents per day for a year by donating it to the rest and that raises the daily rate to $27.
Just one small, not unrealistic, creative example to illustrate its the WILL of people not the sums that matter here.
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SAM- agreed and the woman in the video is just so open with it. Did you hear her ask the girls ” have you ever seen an animal eat spaghetti on a subway”?
that’s outrageous!
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To Kwamla:
I think your being to narrow, literal..
I was responding to Zek’s claim… which as he stated, appears to be incorrect…I know accounting pretty well (which is where Zek was going…) and I won’t be surprised if the US faces a severe financial crises within the next 10 to 15 years. The Petro states, China, and Japan are increasingly unwilling to finance US deficits. I repeat if we stopped spending any money of the US military we would still be running deficits. You could take half of the corporate cash flow average for the past 3 years and it would still not be enough to cover the deficit.
So for example it would only take 100 million people who are prepared to forgo their 0.27 cents per day for a year by donating it to the rest and that raises the daily rate to $27.
It certainly does not raise the daily rate of income for the planet to $27. 100 million people donating 27 cents a day could provide 1 million people $27 a day.
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“which as he stated”
Should read
“which as stated..”
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Milton,
Apparently in all your travels you’ve never had the chance to visit sweatshops and labor camps where children sit in huge warehouses playing World of Warcraft, farming items for American and Canadian gamers to buy online. Yes, this really happens. And they live on less than TEN cents a day. Yes, they grow their own food with their families, but that doesn’t change my first statement in the slightest, which you agree with apparently: that people live on less than 27 cents a day.
And there are a huge number of people who suffer indignity and shame like this on a daily basis. Denying that there are is just plain sad.
And yes, it does happen in Vietnam, and Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, and more. Please don’t attempt to deny it, because it’d just be a waste of time. Like attempting to disprove gravity, or the shape of the Earth.
Finally, please keep in mind that I literally never said feed the entire planet for a year. I said feed the entire planet. Didn’t say for a year. But since you mentioned it, I realized we could — though it would obviously be marginal.
But perhaps most importantly, what does any of this have to do with Black shame?? Do you even agree that we could do a lot of good by spending our war-money feeding people and cleaning up our society? Or did you just want to get hyper-literal and derail the point?
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Zek,
But perhaps most importantly, what does any of this have to do with Black shame??
I responded to your false and as yet unsupported assertion that you can feed each person on the globe for 27 cents a day.
Please don’t attempt to deny it, because it’d just be a waste of time.
I reiterate my statement that I think globalism is a bad idea… (although rolling back from it quickly would be potentially disastrous for some poor countries…)
Deny what…?… I am sure you can find some article that demonstrates that one might find children somewhere working for 10 cents a day (but that is likely illegal in SE Asia…) but the average laboring adult in Vietnam and Laos makes at least 15 to 30 times that on a daily basis. And as I said places like Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia have family members in the US, Australia, Japan, and Taiwan who send money back. I traveled with people who could speak the language (in Vietnam, Thailand, and Laos..) and spoke with numerous people who worked in factories.. overall.. yes the wages are low but they sustain people … and certainly for more than 27 cents a day. SouthEast Asians are made of pretty stern stuff… I doubt they would accept for very long, wages that are markedly below what they could get in the market. As I said the wages tend to be rather low.. ($5 a day in NE Thailand in 2005.. the poorest area of Thailand…. $3 in the very Southern tip of Vietnam in 2002…$3 a day in rural Philippines in 2008…) but not less than a dollar and certainly not 27 cents.
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Zek,
“I responded to your false and as yet unsupported assertion that you can feed each person on the globe for 27 cents a day.”
Sorry Zek.. I saw your clarification after I wrote that.. I am coming across too harshly…
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To Zek:
playing World of Warcraft, farming items for American and Canadian gamers to buy online.
Playing World of Warcraft … farming..? Do you have a link…?
Odd.. not disbelieving you but that doesn’t sound harsh on the surface…. Many kids in SouthEast Asia love playing video games…. Villages have passed laws disallowing children in internet cafes (where poorer kids generally play video games..) during school hours because kids were skipping school and spending their lunch money and school fees on video games. You’d have no problem getting kids to play video games for free and you’d have them lined up if you offered them any sort of financial compensation.
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To Zek:
what does any of this have to do with Black shame..
As I said I was responding to your post.. but.. since you have brought up globalization I do think that it has had a greater negative effect on the Black community than the White community. (Although the later. especially in smaller one or two factory towns have been hard hit also..)
In 1970 Whites per capita held 4 times the wealth of Black Americans. That makes perfect sense considering the many restrictions Blacks had to attain and increase their capital for the almost 300 some odd years of their existence in the US. Fast forward 41 years..and the figure has now climbed to a 40 to 1 ratio in favor of Whites. This in spite of affirmative action, fair housing laws, etc…. (none of which really got their start until the late 60s early 70s…) I strongly suspect that this marked differential is due to globalization. A substantial number of jobs that required manual or semi-skilled labor (where Blacks were over represented..) have been sent overseas…. for the ones that weren’t moved overseas the preferred group for hire has been Latinos.
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***King
“What evidence is there that Mateus hates anyone? He specialises in Dinosaurs.”
Well… would you characterize his attitude towards Dinosaurs as “hostile?” Have you ever seen him exhibit disgust or impatience toward a reptile? Where does he stand amphibians?***
Hehe 🙂
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@chicknoir: I’ve been in numerous situations where white women, who are considered as liberal and educated and very much open, have slipped in their conversations.
Once I was in this nice gala evening for the somekind of benefit of African development programme of somekind (I never figured out what was the cause, perhaps it was to make all those guys feel better about themselves) and after the official program people ate from the buffet and had nice small talk and I overheard these three women, who all have “black friends” and dance “african dances” etc. One of them was tellin stories how africans do not seem to appreciate their hard work for them, and the other commented that they (africans) misuse the money, break things and are rude, and the third one said: “Well, theres Africa for you”.
And let me remind that all three were women who were making more or less their careers out of “helping the Third world countries” and were very much friends of the “African culture”. They also were very much into african guys who were studying in Finland. But there you go.
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Priceless.
Your third item asserts that whites are judged as individuals. This is immediately followed by the blanket assertion that whites, apparently as a monolithic group, control the media.
Absolutely hilarious. And pathetic.
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abagond (and others) said: “You are making this into an either/or thing and it is not. “
I’d agree with that statement, but I’d add the word “necessarily” to the end. It’s not necessarily an either/or thing.
However, for some folks it is to a large degree an either/or.
For example, zek stated that the 4 characteristics of success which I listed were “ethnocentric”. In other words, those aren’t “black values”. This goes far beyond simply recognizing the racially discriminatory historical forces which have helped create conditions of poverty for some groups.
Furthermore, they almost completely discount the effects of culture. zek still cannot admit that Jews and asians lead all groups in college degrees because they collectively value education more than other groups.
Look at zek’s latest tortured and dissembling comment about these differences:
“(By the way, Jews are middle-class overall, just like Black people. We’re disproportionately more educated and in high-paying jobs because, for the same reason Asians dominate in college (particularly in Canada), is because we filled niches nobody wanted to fill. … Which is why Jews are stereotyped as being successful, because we work hard against adversity.”
Jews and asians are not more educated today because they fill niches. They’re more educated because they prioritize education more than other groups, including non-Jewish whites.
People like this simply cannot accept the reality which is blindingly obvious to anyone who doesn’t have a particular political line to tow.
I doubt that these folks and Condoleeza Rice’s parents would have much common ground, at least with regards to the current state of culture and poverty.
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“Furthermore, they almost completely discount the effects of culture. zek still cannot admit that Jews and asians lead all groups in college degrees because they collectively value education more than other groups.”
well that’s debatable but even if it’s true why won’t you admit that racism has done quite a number on the culture of American blacks. If education isn’t as highly valued than certainly racism has had a huge hand in that.
I think we can say with certainty that historically speaking whites haven’t made getting a good education especially easy for black folk in this country. Another thing you might want to consider is with historically high levels of poverty, a college education would be simply out of reach. So if you think about it, placing a high value on something you can never hope to attain (generally speaking) is a recipe for disappointment wouldn’t you say?
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jas0nburns said: “well that’s debatable but even if it’s true why won’t you admit that racism has done quite a number on the culture of American blacks. If education isn’t as highly valued than certainly racism has had a huge hand in that.”
From 1960 to the present, black illegitimacy has increased from 22% to over 70%. By nearly any measure, “racism” (however one might define that) has significantly decreased.
These trends are moving in markedly different directions. One would be better to examine the effects of welfare and other “Great Society” programs for creating a dependency class among the poor (white and non-white alike)
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You didn’t answer my question Randy. Again, why won’t you admit that racism has done quite a number on the culture of American blacks?
You have stated that the reason Jewish and Chinese immigrants out perform other groups of Americans is cultural. From that we can assume statistical under performance by blacks is cultural as well.
What is culture randy? wikipedia says it’s “The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group”
Whatever black American culture is or isn’t I can promise you one thing. without racism it would by wholly unrecognizable to anyone at all familiar with it in it’s current form.
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Jas0n,
I did answer your question. In the 1960’s when racial discrimination was far greater than it is today, illegitimacy among black americans was far less.
How can you say that “A” caused “B” when “A” greatly decreased as “B” greatly increased?
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Because racism shaped black culture. don’t you get it?
It’s like if a women lived in Chernobyl and was exposed to radiation then moved away to a safe distance, she would still pass on the effects to her children.
Racism shaped the world we live in even if active levels of racism have decreased.
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No Randy, you did not answer my question. again. do you agree or disagree that racism has had a strong effect on black American culture? a simple yes or no will suffice.
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jas0n,
All events and situations reverberate through the world and through history. Agreeing that something had a “strong effect” neither informs the potential results of that situation, nor establishes the relationship of that event to others.
I’m not trying to dodge the question, but rather use more precise language.
I think a case can be made that the manner in which welfare programs were implemented from the 60’s to the 90’s (disincentivizing work and intact families) contributed significantly to the breakdown of the family in poor communities (black or otherwise).
Perhaps you might offer a counter proposal explaining why and how you think that racism had a greater effect on legitimacy than welfare.
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Oh boy…
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“All events and situations reverberate through the world and through history. Agreeing that something had a “strong effect” neither informs the potential results of that situation, nor establishes the relationship of that event to others.
I’m not trying to dodge the question, but rather use more precise language.”
Ok fair enough.
How about this, without knowing much about the specific damage caused by the tsunami in Japan would you agree that it had a “strong effect”? I think you could quite easily answer yes to that question. I wonder what it is that stops you from also answering that, yes, 400 years of slavery followed by extreme discrimination enforced by the law of the land until the late 1950’s did have an effect on the culture of the group upon which those injustices were heaped.
If you can get to that point then i’ll be happy to talk about welfare or any other specifics with you, but not before.
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Sam,
I agree. Some whites who proclaim their liberal stance on the black community will open up with other like-minded whites about their true, inner feelings regarding blacks. However, some will cover that up when they’re around black people. Although, there are those who will slip up, get caught, and will apologize so hard to avoid their own problem of racism. If you call some of them racists, they will go frantic, and deny it.
As with the case of black shame, most whites do not understand the concept. They think that it’s illogical to feel guilt because someone else of the same race screwed up, and it is indeed illogical. However, some of those same whites will automatically judge blacks for the acts of one or a few. What’s even more insane is that we can’t do the same with white people. It’s almost a cardinal sin to do so.
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jas0nburns, I would agree with your statement that discrimination would have had a strong effect on black americans.
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Oy vey… Somebody get Randy a dictionary. He needs to look-up two things: ethnocentric, and avoiding the question.
As for the former, the reason attempting to ascribe one set of cultural traits as the only “successful” way to live is that it presumes there is only one kind of “successful” way to live, or that any culture/group that doesn’t possess those same requirements is somehow “less than” or doomed to being “unsuccessful”. Yet we know by the diversity of life on our planet that this just isn’t so.
Consider: In other words, those aren’t “black values”
And they aren’t. They’re values that are shared in part, or in whole by many different groups of people, and attempting to posit them as THE ONLY means of having a successful community is ethnocentric because Randy is measuring all communities in relation to his own.
But we know that most communities did not have to undergo the same level of structural oppression that Black Americans had to. Even though other groups did indeed struggle mightily against racism and prejudice, we can say that in America there was (and is) a fundamental difference in the how other minority groups were treated, and how Black people were treated.
Even more importantly, by ascribing 4 traits as the measure of a successful community, and say that Black people are found wanting, Randy has essentially said that Black people don’t value education or family, yet the proliferation of HBCU’s, Black churches, the Harlem Renaissance, the Black middle-class, and even the JBHE are all examples that Randy’s characteristics DON’T make for a successful community because obviously Black people have met these requirements and yet they’re still not able to pick-up their trash often enough for his liking. Maybe there’s another force at work here??
That Randy refuses to admit the influence racism has had on Black culture is evidence enough that his simplistic “what’s good for the Goose [Jews and Asians] is good for the gander [Blacks and Hispanics]” mantra is a naive prescription. Randy sees the world the way he thinks it OUGHT to be, and not the way that it really is.
Better yet, let me feed him back his own words, People like this simply cannot accept the reality which is blindingly obvious to anyone.
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and I won’t be surprised if the US faces a severe financial crises within the next 10 to 15 years.
Move to Canada Milton!
Once I was in this nice gala evening for the somekind of benefit of African development programme of somekind
You’ll do anything for a free meal won’t you? Join the club! I enjoy crashing wedding receptions and galas for that very purpose
Priceless.
Your third item asserts that whites are judged as individuals. This is immediately followed by the blanket assertion that whites, apparently as a monolithic group, control the media.
Absolutely hilarious. And pathetic.
What’s hilarious is your response to this post, amongst others here. Folks, don’t read this whilst drinking a beverage! I’ve damaged several keyboards reading some of these replies!
From 1960 to the present, black illegitimacy has increased from 22% to over 70%.
Stop following all those women around, promising the moon, the stars, and the sun getting a leg over, and then abandoning them, and this rate will plummet!
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So randy how long do you think it would take a group to recover from that especially considering that they still face incredible discrimination. I still can’t get over that study where white’s with a felony conviction were more likely to get hired than blacks with a clean record when everything else was equal. I’ll be honest with you Randy if I was up against that I don’t think I would be strong enough to succeed in spite of it. And I probably wouldn’t value education very much if despite having a degree and a clean record I STILL couldn’t get a job because of my skin color. I would consider it a waste of time and money.
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Zek, you and I share the same definition of the word “ethnocentric”, and what you’ve written is a frightening example of the poisonous beliefs which many anti-racists spread.
Allow me to elaborate.
You said: “As for the former, the reason attempting to ascribe one set of cultural traits as the only “successful” way to live is that it presumes there is only one kind of “successful” way to live, or that any culture/group that doesn’t possess those same requirements is somehow “less than” or doomed to being “unsuccessful””
Escaping poverty in a first world industrial nation follows a narrow and beaten path. Education is the key which is necessary to unlock financial security.
The contortions which many so-called anti-racists have to engage in so as to NEVER EVER criticize the choices made by people who aren’t white is just amazing.
Once again, zek is saying that education is a “white and asian” thing. Apparently, it’s racist to suggest that black and hispanic folks should pursue knowledge-based careers in order to escape poverty.
zek said: “Even more importantly, by ascribing 4 traits as the measure of a successful community, and say that Black people are found wanting, Randy has essentially said that Black people don’t value education or family…”
I believe that a common set of principles leads to success for all groups of people. But since you’ve specifically referred to black folks, let’s examine the metrics: they have the highest illegitimacy rate, lowest college degree attainment, highest per-capita crime rates, and lowest median income of any ethnic group in the US.
And yet amid all of that, zek and some of the other “anti-racists” want to offer a gentle pat on the head to black folks and state that there are many different paths and all are equally good.
Seriously?
Right now there’s a billion Chinese people (to cite just one example) breaking their backs to educate their children for crucial 21st century knowledge careers, and zek and his bunch are too cowardly to suggest that anyone (who isn’t white) needs to be getting their butts in gear and doing the same.
People who truly care about others don’t give false blessings just so as to avoid crossing some arbitrary politically correct line in the sand.
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Why is it that everytime some fool brings up Asians successes, it is countered and grinded into dust; only to be inevitably repeated in a later argument by the same fool? It’s as if they forgot that they were wrong, and have a very selective memory.
Comparing Asians to other groups has been explained and dismantled numerous times! Bringing it up, in hopes of dragging out a discussion in order to hide the fact that you have nothing left to contribute, is becoming increasingly obvious!
Sing a new freakin’ song already!
Man, it seems like the failed trump card of comparing Asians to other groups is becoming the new “Why Can’t White People Say The N-Word?” People just don’t listen to the answers, because they don’t accept them.
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Franklin,
Indeed & co-sign. It’s like watching a stereotype; they make all of the exact wrong mistakes with regards to race, from exceptionalism to confirmation bias to double standards. And then of course, the inevitable mental back-flips to make everyone else who disagrees with their prejudice to be the REAL racists poisoning people’s minds. Oy vey… and then some.
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@ Randy
I think that it’s an easy thing to commingle the concepts of cause and of solution when trying to explain a problem.
Let’s say that the kids at certain summer camp didn’t like Rodney because he was different than they were. Around the pool one of them overhears Rodney telling a camp counsellor that he can’t swim. So an idea is born.
Late the next night they tell Rodney that all of the guys are going on a secret adventure, and that he is invited to come along. This is the first time that Rodney has been shown any sign of friendship from any of the popular guys, so he jumps up excitedly and starts getting dressed. They all silently walk down the hill through the trees and begin untying the camp rowboats. Rodney looks a bit nervous, but when everyone else jumps in, so does he.
The boys quietly row out into the lake now. Rodney asks, “Where are we going anyway guys?” Nobody says anything so he just looks ahead and keeps quiet. As they reach the middle of the lake, the larger boys suddenly grab hold of Rodney who is now terrified! In one swift movement they throw him overboard in the middle of the lake. In the darkness they can hear his little voice begging in terror over his thrashing arms. But soon, his voice is silent and the sound of his desperation is replaced by low gurgling noise, and then dead quiet.
Here is a question: What was the cause of Rodney’s death?
Well, when questioned some of the boys said,“He died because he was too lazy to take the time to learn how how to swim.” (He died because he was LAZY)
Another said: “He died because he was afraid of the water” (He died because he was a COWARD)
and yet another boy said: “He died because he never took any swimming classes.” (He died because he was UNEDUCATED)
But the real answer is that he died because he was pushed. He was taken from a place of safety, and then was set upon by those who planned to destroy him.
Any other answer is dealing only with secondary circumstances. YES, knowing how to swim might have been a solution to his dilemma, once he was in the water, but NOT knowing how to swim was not the CAUSE of his dilemma. The CAUSE was the callous treachery of those who set upon him.
Same thing with Black Americans – yes, becoming doctors, dentists and accountants would help matters. Yes, having intact families would be a huge plus! Yes, avoiding teenage pregnancy would be very good too. BUT those are not the primary CAUSES of our dilemma, here in the United States. The CAUSE is:
1) Slavery
2) Forbidding an Education
3) Then under-education
4) Refusing to hire us
5) Portraying us as buffoons or criminals in the media
etc. etc. those are the CAUSES
Overcoming these historic wrongs with education, family restoration, therapy, rebuilding of self image, rebuilding of community image… etc may be the SOLUTION, but the failure to do so will never be the cause.
Those two concept need some separation.
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It is amazing to me how white people keep bringing up this “Model Asian” stereotype over and over again. They love to use it because it makes them look like they are not racist by implying that Asians are very succcessful. They keep emphasizing that somehow Asians are the most successful, while whites are “in between”, and blacks are the least successful ( which is another way to say inferior). This way, whites get to be superior to a group of people (blacks) while coming off as humble by admitting that Asians are a model minority. In others words, white are the “in between” people. Not too smart, not too dumb (not like black people anyway). They are not too masculine( like blacks) while not too feminine( like Asians). But they are perfectly “in between”, and that way they get to still feel superior ( over blacks) but not too superior, which lets them off the hook when they don’t do as well as Asians or when they want to come off as not being racist. It is pure bs!!!
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But let me say something. The most college educated group in this country are not Asians, but they are NATIVE Africans. That’s right. Those blacks who were born in Africa, and even the second generational Africans, are the most college educated group in this country!! And some might say that black AFricans are the most educated group because educated black Africans are the only ones that are allowed in this country. But understand something else. Their children are highly success as well. The largest groups that consist of blacks that are accepted into Ivy league schools are second generational Africans. African immigrants (and their children) are extremely successful in other parts of the world as well, such as Europel!!! And their culture emphasizes the importance of education. I know. Because I spent alot of time with Africans, specifically Nigerians. Educations is primarily what they talk about and they expect nothing less than excellence from their children. Now, whites are always talking about the shortcomings of African Americans while conveniently forgetting how racism has impeded the success of African Americans. What gall!!!
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King.
That was a great little story and perfectly illustrates the magnitude of the problem Black people can face when attempting to better themselves inspite of those structural forces which continually seek to undermine them.
@Randy
I am beginning to doubt your own educational achievements when you appear proud to state things like this:
By the way… What is your definition of the word “ethocentric”? Perhaps you could elaborate on that and then contrast it with what you wrote above!
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@ King:
Wonderful comment! Thank you.
@ Jeri:
I did a post on the Three Bears Effect here:
@ Randy:
To hear you talk you would think that in 1900 Jews and blacks in America had the same levels of education, wealth and cultural integrity and have experienced the same levels of racism ever since.
You also assume that the Jews are a greater success than blacks. But it was not the Jews who lifted half their number from slavery into the middle-class in 150 years. It is also unclear how the death of six million Jews at the hands of racist whites figures into your ideas of “success”.
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Yeah great comment King!
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Franklin, Jeri, Kwamla, Abagond:
The point of those comments had absolutely nothing to do with the quality of one group over another. It’s about how success is reached. I say that education is that path.
zek says that this opinion is ethnocentric, which Merriam Webster defines as “characterized by or based on the attitude that one’s own group is superior “. Obviously this is a silly claim, as education has proven to be the key to economic security for people from all corners of the globe, especially in 1st world industrialized nations.
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King said,
BUT those are not the primary CAUSES of our dilemma, here in the United States. The CAUSE is:
1) Slavery
2) Forbidding an Education
3) Then under-education
4) Refusing to hire us
5) Portraying us as buffoons or criminals in the media
etc. etc. those are the CAUSES
I don’t see “welfare” on your list, which is a glaring omission. Before welfare, black folks in America had an illegitimacy rate similar to contemporaneous whites. I think understanding the effects of Great Society programs like welfare is important because it demonstrates how do-gooderism (when clumsily applied) can make things far worse.
But anyways, my focus is primarily on the future, as the way forward doesn’t much depend on how you came to be where you are.
I take issue with zek and others of his philosophy simply because they help to discourage minorities from helping themselves. This is a nuanced point that I’d like you to understand.
Here’s how you can see this yourself:
They weigh the value of a belief based upon the race of the speaker. I’m white, so stating that education and intact families is ethnocentric when applied to non-whites.
But here is a black female OB/GYN saying much the same thing: http://www.thegrio.com/news/blacks-struggle-with-72-percent-unwed-mothers-rate.php
So who’s the racist here?
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@ Randy
You haven’t really been able to illustrate exactly why you think drawing attention to racism and it’s effects “discourages minorities from helping themselves”
Racism itself is what’s discouraging. Not the acknowledgment of it’s existence.
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“I don’t see “welfare” on your list, which is a glaring omission. “
That’s because Welfare is not a Cause.
If a man is shot, you don’t say that the cause of his death was because the paramedic flubbed the resuscitation attempt, even if he made a serious errors. The CAUSE was his being shot.
Welfare was a late reaction for items 1-4. Welfare came hundreds of years after the real causes began. Welfare should not be on the list.
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King said: “If a man is shot, you don’t say that the cause of his death was because the paramedic flubbed the resuscitation attempt, even if he made a serious errors. The CAUSE was his being shot.”
Yes you do say that. Doctors are routinely sued for malpractice even though they didn’t create the original malady which the patient was treated for.
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“Yes you do say that. Doctors are routinely sued for malpractice even though they didn’t create the original malady which the patient was treated for.”
ok randy you won the dabate. hooray for you! Doesn’t it feel great to be a winner? Tell em what he’s won Bob! A lifetime of self-delusion and luxurious ignorance!
Thanks for playing
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Gee, Randy, way to miss the point.
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@ all: what the heck is the point of this Randy guy? I must admit that somehow I don’t see anything coherent.
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@ Sam:
Randy is white. Part of his self-image is based on how wonderful (he thinks) white people are, which in turn is based on believing that America is a more or less just society. It is not a just society, particularly when it comes to race, so he must twist stuff, miss the point and all that.
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Randy, most malpractice suits are not successfully litigated against the physician because it is very difficult to ascertain blame and/or causation, even in cases where some mistakes are made. As a rule of thumb, the more grave the original condition of the patient is, the harder it is to make a case that it was the physician’s actions that made the patient worse.
If someone has a congestive heart condition, or is dying of emphysema, and in the course of trying to treat the patient, an error occurs, that is usually not enough to establish liability for the hospital, or physician. There has to be a clear disregard of established procedures and/or protocols. A willful neglect or careless disregard must be established in order for malpractice to be ascribed.
But it is still rare in a case where a patient is seriously ill (and the physician is acting in good faith—attempting to reverse the effects or manage of the illness) for a malpractice suit to be successful. In any case, the CAUSE of the person’t death is a heart attack, or cancer, or being hit by a truck, not an incorrect decision that the doctor made while trying to remedy the effects of that initial cause.
In the case of the way that Welfare was originally implemented, there were some damaging effects, but they came very late after the patient was already quite sick. A judgement call was made. Some of Welfare worked, but other aspects had to be refined and reformed as time went on. That is not the definition of malpractice.
But I do think that you are missing the larger point.
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Oh Randy,
You take issue with me saying that your uninformed, racist, ethnocentric opinion is the above? Haha, well go ahead! But that doesn’t change the fact that it’s uninformed, racist, and ethnocentric.
But you’re still too focused on trying to weasel out of it to really understand why.
my focus is primarily on the future, as the way forward doesn’t much depend on how you came to be where you are.
Gee, that’s some world of sweetness and light you’ve got there! Have you ever heard of a concept called White privilege? Because yeah… yours is showing. Other groups of people don’t get to be so lucky.
That’s why your categories are ethnocentric. You’re looking at everyone in relation to yourself. Black people value education, but it’s hard to make education get you up the ladder of “success” when nobody will even let you in the door for an interview.
The collective philosophy here is that addressing historical and present injustice requires action, not waving a magic wand and saying, “okay let’s be friends guys!”
And you still haven’t answered the numerous questions posed here, and in my other comments:
Do you believe racism has had a negative effect on Black culture? Why do you judge Black and Hispanic people collectively while judging Whites and Asians individually? How come individual Black people are responsible for picking up litter that the city is supposed to take care of? If keeping your neighborhood clean is the hallmark of a successful community, then why do rich, White communities hire others to do their cleaning and child-rearing for them? And why do they still get to be successful for circumventing this personal responsibility, while Black people do not? If you admit that racism has created obstacles for Black people, then why do you feel that your attitude is sufficient to address them when your own observations say Blacks are still far behind Asians? Do you understand the concept of the Model Minority? Have you ever read a book about structural racism? Why do you refuse to educate yourself on these issues?
So who’s the racist here?
Apparently it’s still you.
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zek said: “That’s why your categories are ethnocentric. You’re looking at everyone in relation to yourself. Black people value education, but it’s hard to make education get you up the ladder of “success” when nobody will even let you in the door for an interview”
The effects of the differences in educational attainment between black americans and other groups present well before the first job interview, so that statement lacks applicability.
I’d also suggest that the link between 2 parent households and educational attainment is uncontroversial. Therefore, a high illegitimacy race places difficult challenges in the path of such children before they’re even born.
My own personal opinion is that the intact-family rate is frighteningly too low across all ethnic groups.
“And you still haven’t answered the numerous questions posed here, and in my other comments:”
Let’s do it.
“Do you believe racism has had a negative effect on Black culture?”
Yes.
“Why do you judge Black and Hispanic people collectively while judging Whites and Asians individually?”
I don’t, and I don’t know where you got that idea.
“How come individual Black people are responsible for picking up litter that the city is supposed to take care of?”
Where I live, all residents are responsible for picking up litter in their yards. Also, you haven’t offered any proof that the Castro is cleaner than the Mission because the City picks up more trash in the Castro vs. people littering less in the Castro. As an anecdotal story, I’ve never seen collections of men drinking beer publicly in the Castro with empty bottles laying about. I can’t say that about the Mission.
“If keeping your neighborhood clean is the hallmark of a successful community, then why do rich, White communities hire others to do their cleaning and child-rearing for them?”
Straw man argument. There’s plenty of communities (lower and middle class included) of varying ethnicities where people don’t throw trash on the ground.
In your model, everyone litters exactly the same amount, but only privileged rich white people have the resources to arrange for it to be cleaned up. I call shenanigans.
Had I ever been caught throwing so much as a supermarket receipt on the ground, my father would have tanned my hide but good. He probably still would.
“If you admit that racism has created obstacles for Black people, then why do you feel that your attitude is sufficient to address them when your own observations say Blacks are still far behind Asians?”
The differences between black americans and asian americans in areas such as education and income are measurable and without controversy. Also uncontroversial are the relationships between education / income, and 2 parent households / educational achievement. Therefore, any population of people with high illegitimacy rate is likely to end up with lower educational achievement and subsequently lower income potential.
If you would like, I can provide you with numerous non-white experts who make these same assertions so that you don’t have to take the word of a white guy.
“Do you understand the concept of the Model Minority?”
According to Wikipedia: “Model minority refers to a minority ethnic, racial, or religious group whose members achieve a higher degree of success than the population average. It is most commonly used to label one ethnic minority higher achieving than another ethnic minority.”
I don’t state that asians or jews are inherently better than others. Rather, they are examples of how prevailing cultural practices which encourage educational achievement quite predicatably lead to economic security. African immigrants would also be included in this group.
The question for you is: if a certain recipe brings success for people from all over the world regardless of race, how can you possibly hesitate to advocate that successful recipe for everyone in the US?
“Have you ever read a book about structural racism? Why do you refuse to educate yourself on these issues?”
The world of social “science” seems to be a closed-loop ecosystem mostly populated by self-enobled mandarins who produce and consume “papers” which, unlike those in all other sciences, must rigorously conform to a pre-determined set of beliefs.
I have read Jared Diamond’s “Guns Germs and Steel” which is a rather laughable case of literary contortionism to prove a pre-approved politically correct opinion.
Just ask and I’ll deflate the premise of that book in a single sentence using only Diamond’s own words.
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@ Randy
It’s funny how you and others like you consistently use “blacks” as a general term. You say that you don’t view blacks as a group, but you do so up until you need to clarify and want to seperate African Immigrants from Black Americans, to show how bad BA’s are. Only to go back to using “blacks” as a general term for the rest of your arguments.
Having brought this to everyone’s attention, I expect you to clarify and seperate the two for a while. But since time is on my side, you’ll no doubt slip up and resume the ignorance that is oh so deeply ingrained in you.
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Randy said:
Divorce and illegitimacy have gone through the roof over the past 50 years for both black AND white Americans – and yet they both get university degrees at higher rates than ever before, particularly women.
Not only that, you can make a reasonable case that one causes the other: as women get more education, it is easier for them to escape bad marriages and they have less need to get married in the first place. This ain’t your grandmother’s America.
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Randy said:
Please do, but do it here:
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Randy GarverSo who’s the racist here?zek j evetsApparently it’s still you.
The very fact that Randy is commenting on this thread without ever genuinely engaging that actual top is proof of his fundamental disrespect for Black people which is the essence of racism.
Of course, it’s obvious Randy has nothing to contribute to a real discussion on this topic or, likely, any other. Indeed, even his fake pose of being the person who is concerned not with who is to blame (well, at least in the ‘Parable’ thread) but with people doing something to address/fix the problem — BLACK SHAME/INTERNALIZED RACISM, in this thread — betrays him.
No, Randy can’t be bothered with being an honest broker in a discussion about Black shame because he’s having too many problems dealing with his very own thin-skin of White shame that seems to be pricked with every thread here that deals with the very real history and continued existence, if only residual presence, of the racism house White Americans built.
Re: the topic… Last week, when me and my co-workers were in our company’s break room for lunch watching the daytime talk shows, an episode of the Steve Wilkos show came on with a brother-and-sister combo who both were bleaching their skin to be lighter because of all the internalized racism/stereotypes they bought into. In fact, the sister (upper teens, early 20’s) was the one who wanted to come on the show because her younger brother (13 years old?) had attitudes like her’s and even worse… and his negative, stereotype-laden anti-black views bothered her.
The simple fact of the matter is: no one has to say or do anything for kids to pick up on and be affected by the nuclear fallout of racism/White Supremacy in [American] society. Nobody has to tell them who the society values and who has most-favored-persons status in society (see Abagond’s thread re: “The Clark Doll Experiment” which was tried again in 2005 by Kiri Davis).
But, of course, I wouldn’t expect Randy to have, you know, Four Principles of Success when it comes to dealing with the Black Shame and internalized racism that [White] racism produce(d). He’d have to stop bs-ing and (1) view racism as a serious subject and (2) stop being ashamed of how White Americans are implicated in both the creation and perpetuation of the racism that produces Black shame and IR.
Clearly #2 is the driving/motivating factor in Randy’s posts/presence here. Like a naked fat chick with bad body acne, Randy is doing everything he can to cover his odd, racialized/vicarious shame.
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Some commenters only bang one drum.
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@ Abagond
And when it’s punctured with accurate logic, they keep on beating it.
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“That is not to say that blacks are perfect, that they do not have serious issues. But it is to say that blacks are not nearly as messed up, nor whites nearly as wonderful, as you are led to believe.”
No group should feel responsible or ashamed about the behavior of individual members of that group — we cannot control adults and how they behave. We can only control ourselves.
Goodness knows that there are more than enough psycho white serial killers out there for whites to be ashamed of. And goodness knows that there are plenty of black criminals out there acting crazy for blacks to be ashamed of. Ditto Hispanic gangs.
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“Goodness knows that there are more than enough psycho white serial killers out there for whites to be ashamed of.”
That’s true, yet whites AREN’T ashamed of white serial killers because WP have the luxury of not thinking of ourselves as a group.
I’ve heard people talk about how we don’t really have a “black community” in America anymore because black Americans have become more divided by class among other things. It seems like that would be good for the shame issue because it allows for some of the same disassociation whites feel from one another.
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O,
I see your point of view. According to the “statistics”, African Americans are labeled to have a high number in the highschool dropout rate and it is reported that we are at a high proportion of committing violent crimes. Just like when someone is labeled to have some mental or behavioral problem of any race, the first thing is to determine the cause and the underlying reason as to why this person has been diagnosed with a particular disorder.
In MY research, African Americans have been labeled with these high statistics as long as the books have been keeping record. In addition, when the numbers are high, you have to look at the entire group. Let’s look at criminals in general of any race. Most criminals are prone to violence due to things, biological, sociological and psychological reasons. Since we are talking about a group, a group that is human –just like Whites, I will scratch off biological and focus on sociological and psychological. You take a group from their habitat and bring them into a place where they are tortured, raped, beatened, dehumanized and enslaved and you do this for centuries…then you give them their freedom, but increase your torture, rape, violence and continue to acknowledge and instill in generation after generation after generation that they are still dehuman. You make mockery of them. You tease them. You mentally abused them. You focus on their “blackness” and nothing else. The result is going to be this detrimental and that group will emotionally and mentally suffer from it. That suffering from the torment will only create a distructive pattern that will be passed along to the next generation. The longer and the more Whites as a group choose not to recognize this and “sweep the history under the rug” and the more Whites continue to focus on African American as a group according to the statistics and or generalized based on what it seems, the more you will see high numbers in your surveys.
By the way, I am married to a White man who acknowledge that Whites have their problems too and do get a better deal – always has and always will. He acknowledge that Whites sympathize with the Jews and holocast and slavery was worse yet it is the hidden and biggest underplayed act in American history. SO LET US ALL be honest here.
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@ ano
Totally agree.
Though, it doesn’t disturb me more than white racism–I just know that there are too many sick people: black, white, etc., who feel the need to denigrate Black people. I just view them as the pathetic individuals they are, disregard their pov, and keep trying to add positive vibes and actions to this world.
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White get the hot seat. They always separate that party by saying they’re biracial,hispanic,jew,chinese,etc. If it’s something positive. He or her white hispanic or white side of biracial made this good thing happen or passing white is alright. Black shame hit everybody in the face in full fire. Negro with money get the slap in the face,too.
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You need to have like some retrospective posts, or some sort of new post with the comments cleansed. Especially now that certain people no longer post in the comments section.
Seriously, most of me reading the comments was just scrolling past degenerates an the people who directly answer those degenerates.
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@ satanforce
Which ones do you have in mind?
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Especially the shift from Roissy to Heartiste.
The Bell Curve posts, especially with respect to Richard Posner.
I’ll post others when I remember.
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No lies were told here.
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And a lot of the causes for shame are BS.
Despite significant control of the media, economy, and government white people are the majority of people
1) on welfare. They represent at least 58.2% of people on welfare according to page 47 of this 2012 document: https://www.fns.usda.gov/sites/default/files/WICPC2012.pdf
2) dying from drug overdose.
3) arrested for crimes.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/table-43
In 2010 they were by far the predominant arsonists, sexual offenders, vandals, drug abusers, DUI arrests (87.5% !!!!! even with Driving-While-Black in effect), and juvenile offenders despite having the more socially acceptable skin color.
4) killing themselves.
http://www.sprc.org/racial-ethnic-disparities
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