Some white people tell me I see racism in everything. I used to think it was just a way to dismiss what I was saying. But even whites who are otherwise serious about the subject of racism say it, so it is not merely just a way to get me to shut up.
First of all, I do not see racism in everything. While I do think that racism in America, both white racism and internalized racism, is far from dead, I doubt it accounts for everything. For example, I think fatherlessness and having children out of wedlock have little to do with racism – both were far lower among blacks in the 1950s when racism was worse. And both have knock-on effects on the rates of crime and poverty on top of the effects of racism.
But I do not talk much here about supposed black pathologies because they get more than enough attention elsewhere. And because I know full well whites use them to get themselves off the hook: See, blacks create their own mess – it has nothing to do with us!
Yet compared to most white people I do seem to see racism in everything. Because they see racism in almost nothing. Because they have narrowed the meaning of the word to just a kind of personal hatred. Because it does not affect them in a bad way. Because they do not want to face up to the racism their lives have been built on.
In reading about this on other blogs, it seems that what persuades them that they are right and I am wrong is that most people agree with them, not me. But “most people”, in this case, are white people!
Why in the world would white people be a better judge of racism in American society than black people? That would be like saying men are a better judge of sexism or straight people are a better judge of homophobia. It would be like asking monks about sex or the rich about poverty.
Does that mean that blacks are right about everything they say about racism? Hardly. But it does mean they have a far better understanding of racism than most whites do. They have to – they are affected by it way more.
I am certainly not right about everything I say. I accept that maybe I see racism in too many things – or too few things (some say I am too soft on whites). I have gone back and forth on this issue myself.
But if you do not believe me the worst thing you could do would be to turn to white people or television. What on earth do they they know? But there are tons and tons of books and blogs written by living, breathing black people and other people of colour. Read those, the more the better, putting yourself into their shoes, and see for yourself how much of this stuff I am making up.
See also:
Abagond 
Personally in the fight against ‘racism’ and ‘White Supremacy’ and attempting to bring about ‘equality’ between the races
Only a very small amount of Whites (but never as a group and/or class) will have the wherewithal to do so, and/or possess the insights. I think most Whites will either fall into the ‘liberal’ and a smaller amount into the ‘plain racist’ category.
So these types of conversation will always take place everyday, since one group is calling for a ‘radical’ change in society, whilst another is calling upon ‘reforms’ that do not fundamentally alter or reduce their ‘privileges’ (historical traditions etc) of the status quo.
Paradoxically for ‘equality’ to begin there has to be a reduction or loss of ‘privileges’…
Hmmm!!!
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“Why in the world would white people be a better judge of racism in American society than black people? That would be like saying men are a better judge of sexism or straight people are a better judge of homophobia. It would be like asking monks about sex or the rich about poverty.”
Well said. Yet racism is a species of discrimination, and plenty of white people have lots of first hand — often bitterly unfair — experience with unfair discrimination.
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please list some of the books you mentioned would be worth reading. thanks
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You know what, there is racism in a lot of things and some people just don’t see it. Its all in the movies and tv programs…
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Define “everything” (in “you see racism in everything”).
I doubt whites thing you see racism in absolutely everything that exists in the world. What I believe is that (white) people think you see racism in everything that is in any way connected to the questions of race, black people or minorities (or similar subjects). Obviously, they believe they know better because, hey, a joke is just a joke, right? It doesn’t mean anything, right? A caricature with black people as monkeys is just a satire/political humor, right?
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is that seriously the name of a restaurant you’ve got there a real restaurant is tar baby’s?
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But I do not talk much here about supposed black pathologies because they get more than enough attention elsewhere
AMEN.
Yet compared to most white people I do seem to see racism in everything. Because they see racism in almost nothing. Because they have narrowed the meaning of the word to just a kind of personal hatred. Because it does not affect them in a bad way. Because they do not want to face up to the racism their lives have been built on.
So sayeth Abagond, ever wise. Talk about an Ankhesenology moment….
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Thank for this post on yet another common white mode of condescension, Abagond — clarifying, as usual.
@ marie:
please list some of the books you mentioned would be worth reading. thanks
I made a list awhile back of the kinds of books that I think Abagond is talking about: it’s here. I look forward to any reading recommendations that he or others here might offer.
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Well, it seems like someone who would question “seeing racism in everything” would also question “seeing racism in nothing”, since presumably they are characterizing the first viewpoint as “too extreme.” But that doesn’t happen–people are all too happy to go with “it’s not race, it’s ______”
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Very interesting take on how people see things
For me, who grew up playing way more sports than others I know I was always aware of not judging people
I always bite my lip when people of color cry racisim and look past the heat of the moment. I also see the hip-hop music that pollutes people all around me. What I see is some people making money off of others fantasies. And being the father of a 1/2 black boy as I have heard it said ” homey ain’t playing that ” { I can’t raise a gansta} I’ll tell him as he grow’s don’t ever hit a woman, don’t disrespect people, don’t damage property. And most important don’t limit yourself to other’s idea’s of what the world is all about. Be your own man and remember that you are 1/2
white and 1/2 black and that’s is just the way God made you
big man AKA low lightning
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@ J – you said: “Personally in the fight against ‘racism’ and ‘White Supremacy’ and attempting to bring about ‘equality’ between the races
Only a very small amount of Whites (but never as a group and/or class) will have the wherewithal to do so, and/or possess the insights. I think most Whites will either fall into the ‘liberal’ and a smaller amount into the ‘plain racist’ category.”
I agree that most Whites don’t have the insights in so much as Society is based on institutionalized racism. They don’t see it in the “nuances” of White Privilidge… To me, this is a matter of education. Thus you get many Whites who “just don’t get it” followed by the statement, “everybody is equal, right?” This is the problem and the solution is open dialogue. (I pick and choose my battles, but when I have an opportunity to call people out on it, I do – to the point I almost got into a physical altercation with a guy. I have other White friends the same. Suffice it to say I was in a darl league during the Obama campaign, and my team was all White (divided Dem/Republicans by the way, and were always calling people out on their stupid “prejudiced” comments.)
These same “ignorant” White people will come together against “overt” racism: Such as when the Klan wanted to sponsor part of the highway in St. Louis. The whole Metropolitan area was against it. They didn’t want some Racist group like the KKK sponsoring a highway. Yet many of those same people are guilty of subtle prejudices/racism and are not consciously aware of it.
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colorofluv, you wrote:
These same “ignorant” White people will come together against “overt” racism: Such as when the Klan wanted to sponsor part of the highway in St. Louis. The whole Metropolitan area was against it. They didn’t want some Racist group like the KKK sponsoring a highway.
The Supreme Court upheld the right of the KKK to “adopt a highway”. However, Missouri responded by naming the road the Rosa Parks Freeway.
The “adopt a highway” program is about litter control. Not collecting tolls from motorists.
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abagond,
As always, your overarching belief that “racism” is the force keeping blacks from achieving the black idea of equality in America would carry some power to convince if there were just ONE black nation in the world that demonstrated everything you believe is missing from black life in America.
But life in EVERY black nation on the planet is far worse than black life in America.
By the way, there may be some slight possibility that Mugabe recently underwent an enlightenment delivering him the knowledge that to run the economy he needs whites bringing in the money.
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no slappz wrote,
The Supreme Court upheld the right of the KKK to “adopt a highway”. However, Missouri responded by naming the road the Rosa Parks Freeway.
LOL! I didn’t know that; that’s awesome!
Do you have a source for that?
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colorofluv, you wrote:
To me, this is a matter of education. Thus you get many Whites who “just don’t get it”
Here’s the part you just don’t get. In America there are no Thought Police.
You can like or dislike for any old reason of your own choice. You can be wrong, misinformed, stubborn, hidebound, willfully ignorant, prejudiced, biased and unfair. Your thoughts are your own and the state does not intrude as long as you act responsibly.
That’s how Freedom works.
But when you look into Islamic theocracies, for example, you find a stunning contrast. Non-muslims are, by law, lesser citizens and discrimination against them is mandated.
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macon d, you asked:
Do you have a source for that?
Inasmuch as you have blocked roughly 100% of my posts at your blog, there is O% chance I’m going to give you help here.
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@ No Slappz – You said:
“The Supreme Court upheld the right of the KKK to “adopt a highway”. However, Missouri responded by naming the road the Rosa Parks Freeway.”
Thanks for adding that… A lot of Whites (as in majority based on my personal experience) were outraged and quite vocal about it. Here is the Wikipedia version:
Rosa Parks Highway is a portion of United States Interstate 55 in Saint Louis County and Jefferson County, near St. Louis, Missouri.
In 1994, the Ku Klux Klan applied to sponsor the highway for clean up (which allowed them to have signs stating that this section of highway was maintained by the organization). The Missouri Department of Transportation rejected the Klan’s application, and the Klan filed suit.
The United States Supreme Court eventually ruled in March 2001 that the Klan had as much right to sponsor a highway for cleanup as did any other organization. In retaliation, the Missouri Legislature prominently named the section after civil rights activist Rosa Parks. When asked how she felt about this honor, she is reported to have commented, “It is always nice to be thought of.” [1]
The Klan, however, never followed through on its sponsorship agreement, and after required notice was given, on April 4, 2001, the Klan’s agreement was terminated for nonperformance.
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CoL,
I think it’s interesting you frame anti-racist knowledge as “a matter of education” because few people seem willing to admit they are uneducated and essentially don’t know what they are talking about. There’s nothing wrong with being ignorant on a topic, but it’s strange when people try to debate a topic they know nothing about. I’m guessing that since White people (especially middle-class ones) have been raised to believe that all knowledge is equally attainable; you just have to put in work, they don’t think about what makes the most sense when you don’t know something–listening and asking questions.
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no slappz sez,
Inasmuch as you have blocked roughly 100% of my posts at your blog, there is O% chance I’m going to give you help here.
Awww, lookee there. You’re really kinda cute when you pout like that!
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macon d,
It is a demonstration of your own cluelessness that you would ask me, of all posters, for help.
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@Jasmin
One thing I’ve learned when talking about racism is “framing the context” from the beginning. Diffuse the human condition to have a knee-jerk reaction by distinguishing/clarifying overt racist ideology (i.e. hate groups – of any kind). If you start talking about “White Priviledge” to a White person who does not undertand the concept, they will take it the wrong way. (as I have done many times….)
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I hate when white people and very few PoC say that to me. Especially when the racism is so bloody blatant shaking its arse an inch away from their faces.
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You’re insightful, and I appreciate the topics you cover.
I think it’s hard for white people to see just how pervasive racism is, and how it literally affects every level of a minority’s life. They don’t have the experience to understand racism in an authentic, all encompassing way.
American whites should go to Hawaii and try to make a life (rent, get a job, make friends) for a semi-short period of time. Then they will really experience what it’s like for minorities on the mainland.
Whites that live in Hawaii see racism in everything. Similar to how you do. Why is that? Because it does actually exist, and it affects lives in both places greatly. The only difference is what race is at the top of the hierarchy.
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Among people who have traditionally been racially oppressed, I think it is natural that some might develop a tendency to over-interpret racism into exchanges where it may not exist. I guess it comes out of seeing actual racism play out in so many exchanges, that they might start to see it everywhere.
I’m not trying to say that black people don’t legitimately see actual racism everywhere. But along with that can come a bit of seeing it where it’s not.
I’m reminded of the furore last year about the Australian KFC ad, which featured a white Aussie at the cricket befriending black West Indian supporters with a piece of fried chicken. There seemed to be a lot of black Americans who saw it as a racist stereotype (“black people like fried chicken”), but in truth it was in a completely different cultural context. Almost no one outside the US would make the connection between black people and fried chicken.
I would guess it is the same for anyone who has been a repeated victim of some “-ism”. You are going to get hypersensitive to it, and be well-attuned to spotting it where it happens, but you’d also have an expectation that the -ism is at play in situations when it’s not.
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KPP,
Can you explain what is the ‘ethnic’/racial hierarchy in Hawaii please??
Cheers
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With regard to:
“I’m not trying to say that black people don’t legitimately see actual racism everywhere. But along with that can come a bit of seeing it where it’s not.”
I am not sure this is the best example, since there are many examples where you can see single nations upset how one country has used and/or depicted them.
For instance (but I forget) the Aborigines werfe offended by another country mis-appropriating their culture.
Borat the comedian ie Ali G annoying the Uzebekestan(??)
nation
Native Americans offended by ‘Red Skins’ (U.S pro-football)
Nigerians how they were depicted in that new film (whose name I cannot remember).
And there are many more examples
So we need to be clear, that races, ethnic groups etc will take offence at things. So there is nothing strange about the KFC saga in my eyes – as I understand the story.
Sorry I do not have the time to fill in the gaps with the incidents that caused outrage for each nation. per se.
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ERE,
You guys look great! 🙂
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You two are a cute couple!
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Your story reminds me of the time I was asked if my boobs were real. I’m not huge (C-cup), but on my frame, it looks bigger than it actually is. I remarked, “It’s bad manners to ask a personal question like that to a total stranger. Not all Asian women are flat!”
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I agree. There are more important things in life than buying a pair of implants, but that’s just me. 😉
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Your story reminds me of the time I was asked if my boobs were real.
I have been asked this many times. My response; “If they jiggle and move they are real, if they don’t they ain’t, now move along!”
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Think that is rude, a guy at the gym asked if I was full black. The reason he asked is because I don’t have “skinny legs and calves” like “most black women”.
Sometimes, I wish people would keep rude comments to themselves.
You can’t put everyone into the same category.
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@islandgirl
What kind of foolishness? These ball that people have to ask these stupid questions.
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Abagond,
Have you ever done a post on intraracial racism? For example, on Black men acting racist towards dark-skinned Black women?
It seems that Black men are becoming more vocal in stating openly that they do not date “darkies”.
Personally, while I am offended by White racism, Black racism against their own kind is just as disturbing.
Is the picture in your post an actual restaurant in existence today? If it is, all I can say is WOW.
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I love to read your critiques, and I admire your writing style.
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To the poster asking about Tar Baby’s — Google is user friendly
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Tar Baby’s is a pancake restaurant in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. It seems to be very much still in business. Google “tar baby’s myrtle beach”.
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Patricia Kayden:
I have done some posts on black-on-black racism:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/08/all-blacks-are-racist/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/colourism/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/
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Great discussion.
Abagond–regarding fatherlessness & crime and racism being worse before these things were such a problem: i’m not so sure. Racism is not as overt or violent, maybe, but fatherlessness and crime in black communities are a direct result of it. It’s not so much about ignorant whites hating blacks at the root of it, though, as it is about smart whites deliberately using fear of blacks and crime to gain power and wealth.
You may already know about Michelle Alexander’s book “The New Jim Crow.” Your readers may want to check it out. Here’s a link to an article about it:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-alexander/where-have-all-the-black_b_469808.html
And here’s a link to an interview transcript with Alexander and another black crime expert, Bryan Stevenson:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04022010/transcript1.html
It’s no surprise there aren’t many black fathers around raising their kids when you realize two-thirds of our jail population is black men, many of them serving long sentences for nonviolent, drug-related crimes. What might surprise some is that drug use is no more prevalent in black communities than it is in white communities. It’s just that most law enforcement is aimed at arresting blacks. That’s racist policy. And it’s done for money and power. And the beneficiaries are mostly white.
Marie: I can’t help wanting to tell you a story about the black airport lady in Philly that I encountered on a recent trip. I went up to her and asked, “Gate B?” as a way of getting directions. She stared at me a minute, so I repeated, “Is this the way to Gate B?” Relieved, she said, “Oh, I thought you said you had to pee!” “And I just wanted to share that with you?” I replied. We laughed and hugged and I went on my way to Gate B. Her first thought MIGHT have been, “What’s this crazy white lady telling me she has to pee for?” And my reaction to her stare might have been to think she was a racist bitch and walk off in a huff. I’ll never know, but I’m glad neither of us did that.
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I’d just like to second TLS’s rec of the Bill Moyers episode with Alexander and Stevenson. I listened to it as a podcast, and it was really excellent — both explained things with exceptional clarity and convincing detail, especially the facts of the increasingly racist “justice” system.
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TLS – until i started reading this blog I hadnt spent much time reading the thoughts of POC about whites- nor thoughts on white based blogs abt POC- so I was being overly aware of black ppl interacting with me, and probably ready to read racism into their actions if their actions were “rude”, in my opinion. Honestly she could have just been having a bad day and not wanting to work on Sunday, benefit of the doubt is better than assigning a racist overtone, right? thanks for sharing your own experience with me.
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I agree with you, Abagond. It’s not that I think whites can’t disagree with racism or see it as wrong, etc, but racism is tied to white privilege. I think whites must understand that they have ‘white’ privilege which makes things they take for granted (i.e. individuality) harder to enjoy/acquire by others (i.e. blacks) who are viewed as collective individuals.
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TLS:
Thanks for the Michelle Alexander links. I have heard of the book but have not read it yet. The whole imprisonment thing is something I have long wanted to do a post on.
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Abagond, I remember reading somewhere that James Baldwin was incredibly paranoid and always talked of being followed or watched by the US government for his beliefs/race. After he passed away, it was revealed that he was in fact under constant supervision & suspicion. You see, he wasn’t paranoid after all. I bring this up to say that if your gut says it’s an act/image/speech where racism is expressed, then it is racist. Perhaps moreso than you may think.
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and trying to use hair length/texture difference to belittle and disrespect the femininity of black women is not cool.>>>
BINGO.
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Unfortunately that is a restaurant in South Carolina. Key word here “South Carolina”
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Under “Possibly related posts”, there is a link to the most delusional post titled “Non-white Children Feel Psychological Stress of Racism, but what about Whites?” It was written by someone who needs to die, seriously. Just thought you should know.
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@Hunter,
I read that link too, and wonder what planet that guy is living on. If someone wants to write an article about how racism affects white children…….how about addressing the “superiority complex,” the “entitlement syndrome,” and all the other negative effects that being the dominant race can have on a child’s psyche, soul, and character…..particularly when they are being actively indoctrinated in racism?
I recall a conversation that surprised me in the classroom, when we were discussing the Brown decision, and we were talking about the doll experiment and how it was used in the Brown decision.
One little white girl spoke up and said, “But doesn’t it hurt white children to grow up thinking they’re better than everyone else just because they are white? Wouldn’t that mess a person up, too?”
Out of the mouths of babes………
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jas0n, you added:
“So we haven’t – you know, if you don’t address issues, if you dont – if you have a cancer, if you have a tumor, you can’t just wait for it to dissipate. It doesn’t just go away. It gets passed down. And you have this illusion of progress, you know, or even a delusion of progress, that just doesn’t take away the fact that after all of the efforts that have been made, we are still, as a people, at the top of just about every bad list and at the bottom of just education, income, incarceration, out-of-wedlock childbirth, teen pregnancies, HIV, childhood obesity, infant mortality. I mean, just go through the list.
And so you say, well, why is that? Well, it’s because of the fact that we bought into the fact of our – the myth of black inferiority, and everybody else bought into that, as well, as well as the myth of white superiority.”
-Tom Burrell
Author of “Brainwashed”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124828546
It’s a good book for anyone who hasn’t already read it.”
here https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/monsters-ball/#comment-69086
My response is: you have to be kidding me. Don’t read every book by a so-called black author and think they have a clue what they are talking about.
White supremacy has NOTHING to do with the high out-of-wedlock births among blacks. That argument is absolutely ridiculous and any rational person can see that.
As I mentioned on that post, the out-of-wedlock rate was lower during the Jim Crow era.
So, tell me, jas0n, if white supremacy and white racism is the cause of out-of-wedlock births, why is it that when blacks were getting hung from trees and having their houses burned down, they still managed to form stable family units in much larger numbers?
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The only reason Burrell’s explanation makes sense to me is that if you ( the general you) see blacks and whites as essentially the same, what other explanation can there be for social differences between blacks and whites than racism? If you take away racism, all you have left to account for those differences is genetics, which is bunk.
To answer your question, I have no idea 😉
I think the effects of racism on the black community in total are probably much too complex for me to grasp. I’m not attempting to explain or deal with those intricacies here. But I do know that without racism, slavery and jim crow, the “black community” (in America) as a unique entity wouldn’t exist in the first place. If you doubt this just ask yourself what would it mean to be a black American if racism never existed?
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jas0n,
“The only reason Burrell’s explanation makes sense to me is that if you ( the general you) see blacks and whites as essentially the same, what other explanation can there be for social differences between blacks and whites than racism?”
Culture.
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Want to know why out-of-wedlock births are linked to racism?
Because an increase in out-of-wedlock births is a natural result of an immigration from rural to urban areas: marriage and household patterns change before child-bearing patterns do.
Blacks moved north to the urban areas of the U.S. in record numbers between 1920 and 1960. Unlike other urban immigrants, however, they arrived just as the industrial economy began to go into the toilet. Many black urban immigrants didn’t get a chance to move into the middle class as other urban immigrants did before them.
None of this would have been much of a problem, however, if the U.S. had kept up its War on Poverty programs in the urban areas. However, as “urban” became more closely associated with “non-white” in the white middle-class mind, the spectre of the “welfare mother” arose. Reagan used this to good efrect in the 1980s, gutting what urban aid programs existed which could help out the black family.
So childcare devolved onto a largely isolated and unemployed single black female population. It’s not single parent families that cause problems, but single parent families, unsupported by extended family structures and not given any public aid at all which cause problems.
Then, to add insult to injury, the right wing gutted sex education programs and made birth control synonymous with sin.
THIS is why single parent urban families have difficulties, folks, not because the presence of a man in the house excercizes a mystical stabilizing influence.
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“culture”
Exactly. And the only reason that we have separate black and white culture here is because of segregation and racism.
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In other words, you could have out-of-wedlock babies until the cows come home with no problems at all – except for the fact that U.S. society actively punishes wopmen who do that.
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jas0n,
“Exactly. And the only reason that we have separate black and white culture here is because of segregation and racism.”
Again, then why were the out-of-wedlock rate lower when blacks and whites were actually, you know, segregated?
You can’t find 30 degrees of separation and then say “A-ha, racism!” At that rate, my waking up out of bed this morning had to do with racism.
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Because when blacks and whites were actually, you know, segregated, the majority of the black population was still rural.
I’m serious, Natasha. This “breakdown of the family” thing is a common occurence in urban migration.
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“You can’t find 30 degrees of separation and then say “A-ha, racism!”
There are many degrees of separation between me and my great, great, great, great, great grandfather yet without him I wouldn’t exist. The past continues to shape our current reality.
“At that rate, my waking up out of bed this morning had to do with racism.”
Blacks and whites wake up out of bed at the same rate I imagine, so there is no disparity to account for, with racism or anything else.
I agree with you that culture is the culprit, but what has shaped that culture? just as a persons environment shapes him/her so does environment and circumstance shape culture.
Also the wedlock gap is closing. white out of wedlock rates are soaring while black rates are increasing minutely in comparison. So yeah obviously racism doesn’t “make” you have kids out of wedlock but it is what creates separate, different groups that behave differently in the first place. otherwise there would be no disparity at all.
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jas0n,
Your comments read like excuses for blacks to continue harming themselves in various ways, under the guise of “Well, racism made me do it!” I’m not sure if that’s your intent. I’m wary of non-blacks who tell blacks that things are “okay” while they would call red alert if their circumstances were the same.
“Also the wedlock gap is closing.”
I’m sure you’ll jump for joy when it finally does.
“So yeah obviously racism doesn’t “make” you have kids out of wedlock but it is what creates separate, different groups that behave differently in the first place. otherwise there would be no disparity at all.”
Sure about that? So there would be no differences in statistics between whites and blacks had there been no racism in the U.S.? Serious question.
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So really there is only 1 degree of separation. perceived disparity – culture – racism.
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“Also the wedlock gap is closing.”
I’m sure you’ll jump for joy when it finally does.
what’s that supposed to mean?
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“Your comments read like excuses for blacks to continue harming themselves in various ways, under the guise of “Well, racism made me do it!”
That’s BS. As I said it’s not an excuse for anything. Nobody is going to do anything for black people so if they as a group want things to change for them they are going to have to do it themselves. That’s reality. Another reality is that racism f**ked yall in the a** and made life way harder for you as a group in the first place. Why can’t both of those things be acknowledged at the same time? It’s not an either/or situation here.
Whites need to acknowledge the role we play in the problems blacks face. We need to take responsibility for certain things. So do blacks, but that part isn’t my job.
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…Exactly what it says?
How will you feel when that happens? Also, when the rate of incarceration of whites and rate of HIV diagnoses reaches that of blacks?
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jas0n,
“That’s BS.”
I was thinking the same.
“Nobody is going to do anything for black people so if they as a group want things to change for them they are going to have to do it themselves.”
Well, we can agree on something.
“Another reality is that racism f**ked yall in the a** and made life way harder for you as a group in the first place.”
I’m doing fine, thanks.
“Whites need to acknowledge the role we play in the problems blacks face.”
And black need to acknowledge the role blacks play in the problems black face. Preferably without white interference.
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I think you guys are blaming the victims. Out of wedlock birth rates… Hell, we have that in Brazil. doesn’t cause us near as much trouble as it does you because we have laws that support single parents and extended families.
HIV rate? By all rights, we should be another Haiti. We aren’t. We have less problems than the U.S. Why? Condom distribution, sex education that goes beyond “Close your legs and pray to Jesus”, free anti-HIV meds and a realistic appraisal of sex that isn’t guided by false morality.
Incarceration… Well, hell, you Americans have only yourselves to blame there.
This is all stuff that needs to be dealt with SOCIALLY but in the U.S. isn’t. That’s the problem. Not which race’s fault all this crap is.
And yet here you two are arguing as if defining guilt was going to make any of this stuff go away when you should know better.
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@ natasha
me:
““Another reality is that racism f**ked yall in the a** and made life way harder for you as a group in the first place.”
you:
“I’m doing fine, thanks.”
me:
Did I not say as a group? How would I know how racism effects you personally.
you:
“And black need to acknowledge the role blacks play in the problems black face. Preferably without white interference.”
me:
We have ALWAYS been interfering, that’s the point. If your saying we need to get out of the way I agree. Acknowledging how we’ve interfered with the progress of black people is how we do that.
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@Natasha..
For once (It can happen sometimes…!!!) I agree with Thad and Jason.
You appear to be arguing along the lines of an unrealistic appraisal of sex guided by a false or imposed morality.
Plus I tend think Tom Burrell’s analysis should be taken a bit more serious than you have suggested.
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Kwamla,
“You appear to be arguing along the lines of an unrealistic appraisal of sex guided by a false or imposed morality.”
I don’t recall ever imposing any moral judgment on sex.
If I have, point out to me where I did so.
Thanks.
“Plus I tend think Tom Burrell’s analysis should be taken a bit more serious than you have suggested.”
I don’t think so.
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It’s implicit in the “out of wedlock” comments, Natasha. As if whether or not mommy and daddy had the Church’s blessing over their union could in any way, shape, or form conceivably reduce a child’s life chances ON IT’S OWN.
That kind of crap only happens when a society actively punishes women for having children without the church’s blessing.
So the whole “are black people responsible for the increase in out of wedlock births” thing is a red herring based on unexamined moral prejudices. The REAL question is why this form of parenting is so noxious in America when it isn’t elsewhere.
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@Natasha.
You place an emphasis on “out of wedlock birth rates”
Why?
And then go on to refute any connections of this to racism. Placing the sole responsibility on the peoples concerned.
This is the basis of a moral argument you are attempting to present. Otherwise what is the significance of “out of wedlock birth rates?”
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Kwamla,
“You place an emphasis on “out of wedlock birth rates”
Why?”
Thanks for asking me why, instead of ASSuming.
Because marriage (whether it lasts or not) provide social and legal benefits in an American context that is not provided in the case of out-of-wedlock situations.
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Because marriage (whether it lasts or not) provide social and legal benefits in an American context that is not provided in the case of out-of-wedlock situations.
Exactly.
So properly speaking, the moral and political focus here should be on WHY that’s the case and not on whether or not people have children out of wedlock.
In effect, you are blaming the victim here.
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@Natasha
You’ve just provided it…here
I still think it would be helpful listening to Tom Burrell on “Brainwashing:
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I think out of wedlock birth rates is just an example, you could substitute high school drop out rates or whatever you want. the main point is still the same.
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No, it’s not.
We can definitely say that formal education can really, truly and objectively improve your life chances. Having a priest bless your parents’ union does not.
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I wasn’t saying that dropout rates and out of wedlock births were the same thing. I meant that either could be used as an example of a social difference between blacks and whites.
For this discussion it might be better to use drop out rates so as not to get sidetracked into a debate on whether or not marriage is important in the first place.
The original point Natasha and I were debating was what responsibility if any do whites have for the current state of the black community and the social differences between the 2 groups.
For my part I firmly believe Burrell is on the money, not because I’ll believe any black guy who writes a book as Natasha said but because a quick look around me offers abundant evidence that what he says is true.
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@ Kwamla
LOL Burrell goes into the “are whites jealous of blacks” thing at the end of part 2.
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Kwamla
“You’ve just provided it…here
Because marriage (whether it lasts or not) provide social and legal benefits in an American context that is not provided in the case of out-of-wedlock situations.”
The assessment that social benefits are gained is not the same thing as a moral judgement.
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Thanks, King. I thought that would be obvious, but methinks I sometimes overestimate people.
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@Jason
Yes. I noted that!!! Maybe this part needs a bit more research on his part as he’s more focused on the inferioritisation of Black people caused by an unquestioned adaptation of the “white aesthetic.”
@King and Natasha
Social benefits gained or not is not the issue. The issue for Natasha is children born “out of wedlock ”
Please correct me if I am wrong Natasha?
You could question why greater benefits are provided for those in marriage in the American context. (A point Thad has already made) But you do not contest this. You take it as a given.
Clearly you believe African Americans are responsible for making choices that seem to deny them those greater benefits. When in a prior period (Jim Crow era) they, presumably, enjoyed these same greater benefits.
And those choices have nothing to do with racism.
You’ve linked greater social benefits to a formally state recognized marriage environment. When its not “written in stone” that it can only be given this way.
This is where you are making a moral judgment. In my opinion…
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Kwamla, okay, for the love of all things sane…
Sheesh 🙄
I didn’t impose any moral judgment. You can read into the comments whatever you wish, I don’t care, but I’m stating you that it’s just not there.
Have a nice day.
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So Natasha, you seem to be dismissive of Burrell’s general idea because it doesn’t place enough responsibility on black folk? is that correct?
It seems to me that it does place responsibility with blacks for perpetuating the myth of black inferiority as well as with whites for creating the myth in the first place. Do you feel that there is no such myth? Or that there is, but whites have no responsibility for it’s existence.
Certainly if this inferiority complex is real, it doesn’t seem like whites could or would have much to do with destroying it. I think that Burrell implies as much in his book, that it is blacks who would ultimately shoulder the burden of changing things.
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I don’t care about Burrell’s theory/ideas/crap. That’s all.
I wish people would stop peddling all these random black “theorists'” ideas to me like I should care. I don’t rely on others to come to my own conclusions (unlike some), thankfully.
I have enough comments on this blog so you all can figure out where I stand on white supremacy, racism, etc.
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“I don’t rely on others to come to my own conclusions (unlike some), thankfully.”
um. ok.
So in other words “fuck books!”
Actually, the reason I quoted dude in the first place was because before I even read his book I had started to see what looked to me like symptoms of an inferiority complex from within the black community, but I didn’t know enough about the history to see where it came from or how and why it formed. All Burrell’s book did was confirm my suspicions and provide the background I was missing.
At any rate it doesn’t matter whether you care about this specific writer, the question is…
How does acknowledging the role white supremacy plays in the achievement gap take away from the responsibility blacks have to overcome it?
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Kwamla, if someone makes an observation about how social benefits are granted within a society, that observation is not, in and of itself, a moral judgement.
It is unreasonable to expect the observer to question why the society in question chooses to distribute benefits as it does. The observation itself is a neutral one. It simply states what is.
Thad’s own comparisons are themselves moral judgements. He is saying that the choices that Brazil has made are BETTER or more JUST than the choices that the United States have made. That is an appeal to a moral standard that he believes that Brazil is closer to than is the United states.
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@King
Would you also agree with the above statement too?
After all. This is supposed to be a discussion about seeing racism in everything.
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Thad’s own comparisons are themselves moral judgements. He is saying that the choices that Brazil has made are BETTER or more JUST than the choices that the United States have made. That is an appeal to a moral standard that he believes that Brazil is closer to than is the United states.
Far be it for me to hold Brazil up as a moral paradigm for anything, but on these particular issues – and particularly on the issue of HIV – I think we can comfortably state that we’re doing better than the States.
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@ Thad.
I have no objection to your moral paradigms, so long as we can agree that they are moral paradigms. You are simply presenting your own view of morality as more correct than someone else’s—which is what we all do.
@ Kwamla
“Would you also agree with the above statement too?”
I’m sorry, which of the statements above?
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@King
Here it is again. I have taken your own comments and substituted the subject for another:
“…if someone makes an observation about how Black people are discriminated against within a society, that observation is not, in and of itself, a moral judgement…
…It is unreasonable to expect the observer to question why the society in question chooses to discriminate as it does. The observation itself is a neutral one. It simply states what is…”
Hope this is clearer for you.
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Yes, that is correct, AS AN OBSERVATION.
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What is your education, have you spent your whole life becoming this hatefull person that you are? Maybe not seeing racism is the beggining of the end for racism . Ok so thats a little naive, but still whites simply dont try to dwell on every little thing that happens to them as being even remotely racially based. I think the white friends and colleagues of yours are trying, in the nicest way possible, is that you are a serious racist. Of course, Im white, therefore not entitled to comment upon an issue that affects all human beings. Guess we arent human either.
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As a an 18 year old black girl, I have dealt my share of racism especially going to a predominate white school even though I’ve been in a black school too for a couple of years. It burns my chaps when my father tells me “all you see is black and white blah blah, stop thinkin like that” even when the racism is so blatant. Of course he would say something so ignorant since his daughter in law is white
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There was a recent controversy regarding FHM’s Philippine magazine cover of a light-skinned, half-Filipina model/actress displayed against a backdrop of darker-skinned models of which some were painted “black”. The caption read “Stepping Out Of The Shadows”. Some insisted that the cover wasn’t racist by any means. The darker models were supposed to be a metaphor. I was outraged because I know all too well the “white/light is right” mentality prevalent in Asia and across many sections of the world.
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I think if Jesus were a Black man, the world would try to be Black.
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@ Peter nicksol
I deleted your comment in moderation because it was mainly about gay marriage, which seems to be off topic here.
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It’s not good for and not a good idea to see racism in everything. I believe that there’s racism in America, but it’s not everywhere. In places where an assortment of ppl of different races there’s no racism. People who aren’t comfortable around racists DO NOT linger around racist. Would it be wise for me to attend a KKK rally in hopes of uniting blacks and whites or change the way the KKK thinks about black ppl. NOT! Racism is what it is and its here to stay. The world’s gonna keep revolving regardless. I think a lot of ppl get their hopes up only to get let down.
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I feel that sometimes I may be very sensitive about racism. I have been on the receiving end of it more times than I care to count. It caused me some emotional damage. But I don’t always want to be so paranoid about everything in society. It’s very exhausting. But I do believe white supremacy is alive and well in America and globally as well.
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I read this thread a while ago (via ‘Broken Records’, which was one of the first places I started working through. It’s a great induction guide). I only just got round to putting some thoughts together.
One of the reasons SOME whites will say that PoC writing here see racism in everything is, indeed, summed up in this:
abagond said:
IMO, this is absolutely right, with a few qualifications and expansions, which no doubt some people will not accept.
Non-racist and recovering-racist whites may not even have reached the stage where they realise that there is any facing up to be done. Certainly whites outside of the US, even those of us who have been actively involved in campaigning on equality issues, can be shocked when we first encounter sites like this. I don’t know whether whites in the USA are more aware than European whites, from what I see in the media I presume that they are. The topic certainly appears to have a much higher profile there.
In the UK, racism is rarely raised in the context of a system. Discussion usually highlights individual occurences, maybe with some brief wider fallout that soon decays. Following the murder of Stephen Lawrence, 20 years ago, there was a token fuss about “systemic racism” in London’s Metropolitain Police, and reforms were introduced. Despite ongoing accusations, as that intial outrage faded, the media and the police have preferred to try to avoid focusing on the event and its wider implications more than they have had to.
There appears to be a SYSTEMIC reluctance by the establishment to face up to racism . A consequence of this is that white people who, as you say, are not personally directly adversely affected by racism, exist in a naive, oblivious bubble. Our media do not depict a widespread problem. Where coverage may hint at such it is fleeting and vague. Until recently, my own perception of racism was of a nasty business that happened in isolated instances and should be stamped out. I was one of the people who believed the things-are-better-than-they-were assumption.
The concept of white supremacy, in my mind, was encapsulated in images of inbred, fat white men with caricature southern US accents wearing pointy-hatted sheets with eye holes cut out. There was no awareness that it could be an extant issue. To my oblivious mind it was an issue from the past with maybe a few neo-nazi nut jobs cropping up evey now and then. The possibility that it could be an actual dominant system never occurred to me. Why would it? I’m white. Nothing happens to me to make me wonder. I saw and heard of individual incidents of racism and reacted to those. There was clearly a problem – but an actual SYSTEM? I have since had a gradually dawning sense of WTF?
My point is that a very large number of whites would actively reject white supremacy if they weren’t entirely ignorant that it is a reality outside of the movies. It is hard to swallow that red pill if you don’t really even know that there is another layer of reality to which your eyes can be opened.
From the UK media we hear more about gender and sex discrimination than we do about racial discrimination. Gay rights issues, such as marriage equality, make constant headlines (this is not a complaint, I am an ally to that cause). Where racism is reported it is usually in the context of Islamophobia and terrorism, and is targeted against south Asians rather than black people.
The accusation that PoC see racism in everything is not always made dismissively. It is sometimes the aghast reaction of a person who just needs help to open their eyes. Some of the most naive and stupid white commenters here are potential allies. Of course, the effort needed to educate them may be more than people are prepared to invest. Also, some PoC may, understandably, not want or trust any white people as allies.
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@ mary burrell
I think I am beginning to understand.
It must be hard to avoid that paranoia when so much around you is shaped and warped by that system, even at times when there are no specific incidents that you can point at and say, “Look! Rasicm!”; when so many things around you, from employment prospects to the treatment you can expect from the police and the courts, are cause for pessimism…
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Your blog is incredible. Keep up the great work. Teaching people REAL history and REAL reality is sorely needed before we can ever hope to find a just world.
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too much to read please shorter 🙂
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I know this is an old post, but I just stumbled upon this blog. I find it kind of interesting that you chose to use a photo of a “Tar Baby” sign for this post. I’ve read the Uncle Remus stories &, in my view, the story of the tar baby teaches that anger & violence are at best futile & at worst something that will capture & ensnare you. The moral seems to be that aggression & fighting are dangerous ways to behave… the tar baby doesn’t appear to have anything to do with not liking black people.
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[…] You see racism in everything! […]
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Sometime, people, who,get hurts all the time.pool,up,in the air,and say God help me
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Racism is so American, that when you protest it, people think you are protesting America.
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