The following is a guest post by Ankhesen Mié:
I’m watching Conan the Destroyer (1984), and while I have all the proper respect due to Grace Jones, the character of Zula never appealed to Moi. She is the quintessential white interpretation of a black woman:
1) Zula is the token.
She’s there to shut us up so that black women in particular can’t complain about not being seen in Hollywood. After seeing the first film, her ass appears random as hell in the second.
Because she technically doesn’t “belong”, the writers don’t know what the hell to do with her. Her dark skin makes her so “foreign” and “alien” they have no clue how to properly develop her character. She is conveniently the last of her tribe, so that the white audience members won’t have to bother with seeing too many Negroes in the film.
2) Zula is the Black Amazon Trope.
Fuck…crack open the Trope dictionary and Zula is the goddamn definition. I mean, we’ve already got warriors in the damn film – how come the only black woman in the entire movie has to be a snarling stick-wielder? You’re telling Moi that in sword-and-sorcery ‘verse, they didn’t have room for say, a delectable siren? How about a sultry enchantress? A mystical ancient goddess? An enigmatic oracle? How about a spy/assassin masquerading as a sexy dancing girl? The white girl can play the petulant, whiny princess all she wants – fuck that shit – but how come Zula doesn’t get something, you know…interesting? Exciting? New and unexpected, but in a good way?
Mind you, in the 1980s, Grace Jones herself looked fabulous (pictured right). But Zula does not. Zula is not meant to. We can’t have her distracting the audience from the white leading ladies (one of which was then-15-year-old Olivia d’Abo, whom Zula eventually ends up taking orders from).
You may recall that Grace Jones was quite popular during the 70s and 80s for her music, but she was also known for her deliberately androgynous style. So naturally, one must wonder why she became the automatic choice.
Was Somalian model Iman unavailable?
They couldn’t give Whitney Houston a call?
Karen Alexander?
Shari Belafonte?
Beverly Johnson?
Tina Turner?
Erika Alexander?
Janet Jackson?
You’re telling me that it never even occurred to the writers to extend any of them an invite?
4) Zula is asexual.
Zula wasn’t designed because she’s desperately needed or wanted in the story. She’s not cast to be sexually alluring to the hetero male demographic which dominates this sword-and-sorcery audience. She’s not written to be fascinating in any way. Only the least attractive, most annoying man in the film makes a move on her one time, and she immediately threatens to “spread [his] head.”
So once more, the black woman is effectively rendered sexless and unworthy of pursuing. She’s just there to pal around with and not be taken seriously.
In other words, she’s just another one of the guys.
Good piece, Ankhesen Mié.
Once again, however, I caution the reader against being fooled by this so-called white racism. Another way to look at the presence of Ms Jones in this flick is simply as a means to compensate white people – specifically white females, for not generally matching up to the physical (and racial) allure of Black females.
Surely, this consistent need to de-sexualise, de-romanticise, the most emphatically female-looking females on the planet, was bound to get someone asking the question: “what are white people attempting to compensate themselves for by this continued de-femalisation of the MOST female?”.
Sure, I answered the question above but its still a question we must give some very considerable thought to.
Just saying.
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
Perhaps you should contact the Jewish producers and lodge a complaint
LikeLike
@ amband,
no one can accuse you of getting racial (or racist since you merely asked a question) but I see your point behind the question. To often the wicked works of specifically JEWISH writers, producers and directors, are blamed on Anglo-Saxon white males (just as was the control, and financing, of the transatlantic slave trade) instead of the real movers and shakers; in this case, Hollywood Jews.
Point taken, sir.
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
The producer was Raffaella De Laurentiis, an Italian woman. She is the daughter of Dino De Laurentiis and a former Miss Rome.
LikeLike
And the ‘overseer’ or director was Richard Fleischer.
LikeLike
And Stanley Mann wrote the screenplay.
LikeLike
Robert E. Howard was a stone cold racist. If anything that character was in line with what he would have written.
LikeLike
Well, yeah, she is amazon but so is the love intrest of Conan. So I just think she is just one of those. I would’ve loved to see black actress as some sensual and intelligent figure in the story, but this is the world of Conan. White male fantasy as its barest. Women are not equal with men, even when they are exellent amazons. Not black nor white ones. Their job is to tickle the imagination of the white male audiences. Nothing else.
As for the main villain of the story, no questions about that?
But really, why there are no more blacks in the world of Conan?
“Robert E. Howard was a stone cold racist. If anything that character was in line with what he would have written.”
There you go.
LikeLike
I remember seeing this film when it first came out – initially, I was pleased that a Black woman was starring with Arnold Schwarzenegger in a big swords-and-sorcery film; since I was heavily into Dungeons & Dragons and other RPGs, I felt validated in a way. While watching it, however, I became a bit discouraged and dismayed over the portrayal of a Black woman in that film – I didn’t understand why every other female (warrior, sorceress, priestess, etc.) was portrayed with some semblance of sexuality and sensuality, but Grace Jones was just an androgynous Amazon with no other special talents whatsoever. I think that was the first time that my eyes were really opened to the way Black women are viewed in this country…that, and the way I was scorned and shunned when I hit puberty and started finding the boys interesting.
LikeLike
LOL! You just have to perform juggling acts with your brain in order for it to process without getting into specifics (and bursting a vein in the meanwhile). Yeah, I watched this as a kid, but usually preferred ‘Barbarian’. Grace Jones didn’t really bother me in this movie.
The only female I really found “attractive” in either flick was Sandahl Bergman’s character (Valleria), which still flies in the face of what is deemed Western beauty (brawny vs. scrawny). Jones’ character wasn’t that far (wilder). I actually thought it changed it up a bit from the usual stuff and her off-screen persona knocks this stuff out. Nothing wrong with eye-candy, but that stuff wears out for me.
On a side-note, Tina Turner wound up in the last Mad Max movie…:/
LikeLike
sepultura13 said:
I didn’t understand why every other female (warrior, sorceress, priestess, etc.) was portrayed with some semblance of sexuality and sensuality, but Grace Jones was just an androgynous Amazon with no other special talents whatsoever.
I think that was the first time that my eyes were really opened to the way Black women are viewed in this country…
Menelik says:
it is clear to the naked eye that Black females are comfortably the most female of females physically speaking. Portrayals such as MS Jones are used so as to deny the obvious. Most Black women look nothing like Ms Jones!
LikeLike
I think Ankhesen Mié forgot about one very important thing – she is not part of the movie’s target audience. The film was created for young white men. White men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive. So, if the writer(s) had wanted to create another beautiful/sexy/graceful female character they probably wouldn’t have hired a black woman. They knew their audience is more likely to be attracted to a white female.
Zula was supposed to be one of those weird, alien sidekick characters that are so common in fantasy stories. Since white people tend to view black people as exotic and foreign hiring a black actress to play this character was an obvious choice.
LikeLike
Eco said:
I think Ankhesen Mié forgot about one very important thing – she is not part of the movie’s target audience. The film was created for young white men. White men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive.
Menelik says:
rubbish! Read what I wrote above, and stop reacting like a rat in a Skinner box! White men DO NOT believe that the majority of Black women look like Grace Jones so this was an obvious attempt to make them appear unattractive or at least androgynous.
Eco said:
Zula was supposed to be one of those weird, alien sidekick characters that are so common in fantasy stories. Since white people tend to view black people as exotic and foreign hiring a black actress to play this character was an obvious choice.
Menelik says:
rubbish! There is nothing “exotic and foreign” or alien about a race of people who’ve lived side-by-side with you for centuries! Moreover, as I suggested, hiring Ms Jones was an effort since she is unrepresentative most Black women as YOU can see with your own eyes!
Sort yourself out, you silly sausage!
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
https://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/shari-belafonte1.jpg?w=175&h=300
this is NOT shari belafonte
LikeLike
Long time Conan The Barbarian comic/novel reader here… I hated this movie, one of the main reasons was that Zula, a bad ass Kushite who could rival the barbarian himself was made into a savage woman in the movie. This and a whole lot of other issues made it an abortion compared to the original movie. Grace Jones probably wasn’t considering her portrayal on a bigger level outside of it being a paying gig but I always facepalm whenever I see her as Zula or MayDay on the 007 movie.
LikeLike
Menelik said:
rubbish! Read what I wrote above, and stop reacting like a rat in a Skinner box! White men DO NOT believe that the majority of Black women look like Grace Jones so this was an obvious attempt to make them appear unattractive or at least androgynous.
My reply:
Grace Jones doesn’t look like the majority of black women. I haven’t claimed that she does. Zula wasn’t meant to represent black women. She was supposed to be an alien, foreign element. A character more like Jar Jar Binks in Star Wars than an actual human woman.
The part of my comment you misinterpreted said that: “white men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive.” Frankly I think that’s an obvious fact. The majority of white men sees black women as significantly less beautiful than white women. I really don’t see how this statement can be a surprise to anyone…
Menelik said:
rubbish! There is nothing “exotic and foreign” or alien about a race of people who’ve lived side-by-side with you for centuries! Moreover, as I suggested, hiring Ms Jones was an effort since she is unrepresentative most Black women as YOU can see with your own eyes!
My reply:
You really believe that white people don’t see black people as exotic and foreign? Seriously?
So, whites don’t have an “us” and “them” mentality when they think of black people? Europeans don’t view black people as perpetual foreigners?
LikeLike
also, when you ask a white person to describe “exotic” people, how many start talking about people whose skin isn’t brown or black?
LikeLike
Lurker:
Good call! Although that picture does come up in searches for Shari Belafonte in the 1980s, it is in fact Jamaican model Stephanie Roberts:
http://www.fashionmodeldirectory.com/models/stephanie_roberts/showphoto/306326/
LikeLike
Not just any black woman. The dark-skinned black woman. If they wanted a black siren or princess they would NEVER give a dark woman a call. It would be a light, bi-racial or even Hispanic woman standing in as a black woman. In fact, I’ve NEVER see a light black woman, and by light I mean anyone who is caramel-skinned and lighter, depicted as the asexual, emasculating caricature that is Zula. As a chocolate-skinned black woman I find it extremely insulting, but its up to us as black people to counter these portrayals with our own positive ones of lovely, feminine black womanhood – regardless of complexion. Unfortunately many of our own people have internalized this very white view of black women, in particular dark skinned women.
@ Charles Menlik
Couldn’t agree more. This occurred to me when I watched the Princess and the Frog of all things. It was interesting that the titular princess had to practically share the screen with the white, blonde child of her mother’s employer. I kept trying to figure out why she was sharing such a prominent role and could fail to recall any other princess movie with another scene stealing side-kick. It was as if the audience had to be reminded that white women were actually better somehow. Don’t get me started about why the Prince was some Hispanic dude from a made up company instead of a black man. They couldn’t have made up an African Prince? Not to veer so off topic, but I do believe that part of the stereotyping of black women is to reassure white women in some manner.
LikeLike
Eco said:
I think Ankhesen Mié forgot about one very important thing – she is not part of the movie’s target audience. The film was created for young white men. White men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive.
Menelik says:
rubbish! Read what I wrote above, and stop reacting like a rat in a Skinner box! White men DO NOT believe that the majority of Black women look like Grace Jones so this was an obvious attempt to make them appear unattractive or at least androgynous.
Eco said:
Zula was supposed to be one of those weird, alien sidekick characters that are so common in fantasy stories. Since white people tend to view black people as exotic and foreign hiring a black actress to play this character was an obvious choice.
Menelik says:
rubbish! There is nothing “exotic and foreign” or alien about a race of people who’ve lived side-by-side with you for centuries! Moreover, as I suggested, hiring Ms Jones was an effort since she is unrepresentative most Black women as YOU can see with your own eyes!
Sort yourself out, you silly sausage!
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
Is this surprising to anyone? Hollywood has told Black folk in a million different ways that they hate us. Not much we can do about that. Racism is definitely inconvenient, but it ain’t ever goin away!
All we can do to combat stereotypical or racist images, whether they be implicit or explicit, is to produce our own media. Unfortunately that doesn’t even always work in our favor(Tyler Perry!)
LikeLike
For all this complaining about black women not seen as sexy or beautiful, I would like to remind people about the movie, Coming to America.
It has:
1) A beautiful black woman (portrayed as attractive)
2) An African Prince
So, you see, Hollywood can sometimes portray black people positively.
LikeLike
@amband
Not that I condone blaming a group of people for the images that come out of Hollywood, but none of these surnames seem Jewish to me…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087078/fullcredits
LikeLike
**4) Zula is asexual**
I’d like to point out the fact that the definition of “asexual” means procreating without another partner. Sort of like how plants self-pollinate themselves. A word other than “asexual” should replace it–unless, of course, she really IS hermaphroditic and able to make babies by herself.
LikeLike
Words can have more than one meaning. Asexual can also mean “without sexual feelings or associations” (Concise Oxford).
But then again, Eco informed us that “Zula was supposed to be one of those weird, alien sidekick characters that are so common in fantasy stories,” so who knows how she reproduces. Maybe she buds or something.
LikeLike
Eco said:
Grace Jones doesn’t look like the majority of black women. I haven’t claimed that she does.
Menelik replies:
no but I’m responding to these words: “The film was created for young white men. White men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive”.
my reply was: white men DO NOT believe that the majority of Black women look like Grace Jones so this was an obvious attempt to make them appear unattractive.
Eco said:
Zula wasn’t meant to represent black women. She was supposed to be an alien, foreign element. A character more like Jar Jar Binks in Star Wars than an actual human woman.
Menelik asks:
then what is the point in you saying “white men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive” since you are now suggesting Grace Jones neither looks like a Black women nor was representative of one?
Eco said:
You really believe that white people don’t see black people as exotic and foreign? Seriously? So, whites don’t have an “us” and “them” mentality when they think of black people? Europeans don’t view black people as perpetual foreigners?
Menelik says:
you’re really mixing stuff up, aren’t you? “Exotic and foreign” does not suggest a threat. Moreover, white Americans (we’re talking about the US here, buddy) don’t view Blacks as foreign but rather as potential racial competitors.
Now you may talk about “us and them” since we are dealing with opposing races here!
Eco said:
also, when you ask a white person to describe “exotic” people, how many start talking about people whose skin isn’t brown or black?
Menelik says:
but again this exotic status is not accorded African-Americans, least of all to their women. When ‘Black’ sex or romantic interests are cast in films it’s the nearness to the white norm which is sought NOT its exotic distance.
Get a grip, man lol
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
The Cynic said:
@amband,
not that I condone blaming a group of people for the images that come out of Hollywood, but none of these surnames seem Jewish to me…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087078/fullcredits
Menelik says:
the top man in the hierarchy of ‘Conan The Destroyer’ is a Jew, Richard Fleischer; the person directly responsible for the depiction of Grace Jones’ character is the Jewish screen writer, Stanley Mann.
The rest have minor roles like:
Writing credits
Robert E. Howard (character)
Roy Thomas (story)
&
Gerry Conway (story)
The point is whether one acknowledges it or not, most of what African-Americans grievances with Hollywood can be directly traced back predominantly to Jews. This is a simple fact which cannot be disputed with cries of anti-semitism!
facts are facts.
Just saying.
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
Calculator said:
For all this complaining about black women not seen as sexy or beautiful, I would like to remind people about the movie, Coming to America.
It has:
1) A beautiful black woman (portrayed as attractive)
2) An African Prince
So, you see, Hollywood can sometimes portray black people positively.
Menelik says:
“a beautiful Black woman” who happened to be bi-racial with a dark-skinned sister who was cast as a gold-digging whore! I wonder who was pursued throughout the movie and got to marry the impossibly wealthy African Prince?
Imagine a young Black girl watching that “positive” depiction of Black femalehood…
LikeLike
Menelik,
Are you still on that anti-Semitism crud? Louis Farrakhan wants his rhetoric back.
The moneyed and powerful in Hollywood, the people who actually OWN these copyrights, and finance all these productions, and most importantly are the true owners of Hollywood, aren’t just Jews. Or even primarily Jews. If they were you’d see a lot more Judaism in cinema, instead of all the Christian focus.
But that aside, I like how you take a few Jewish names/people, and turn it into this grand statement that the Jews (by golly by gosh by gee!) are somehow responsible for the plight of Black people and their depictions in film.
I mean, what next? Devil horns, and the power to turn into cockroaches? I think you’re taking Borat a little too seriously.
Just saying.
LikeLike
@Greg Dragon
Interesting point! Movies can sometimes stray from the source material, so it could explain the final result. I’ve had my hands on a few comic renditions of Conan, but I’m sure they’re also straying off course.
To clarify my original post, I can see what the article’s author is saying and tend to agree for the most part. I guess that’s why I still inserted my snark in regards to bursting veins over “Hollywood’s” antics.
LikeLike
@Menelik
I said the surnames didn’t SOUND Jewish to me. In my defense I remained agnostic on the issue while providing a source for amband to check himself. I actually tried to do a bit of half-ass research to figure out if they were, but it was to no avail. I’ll take your word that they are Jewish.
Personally I don’t really care what race/ethnic/religion they are. The belief that all Jewish people act or think alike IS anti-semitic. I do not believe that Jewish folks in Hollywood are deliberately using the media to pervert the image of Black ppl. I do believe that if their are prejudices among certain individuals they will implicitly/explicitly come out on the screen.
I mean why blame Jews when anti-Blk prejudice exist in plenty of groups/ppl. I mean just take a look at Tyler Perry’s work!
LikeLike
“Jewish folks in Hollywood are deliberately using the media to pervert the image of Black ppl.”
*as a group
Blaming an entire group for certain individuals within it is silly and just plain immature.
LikeLike
Are there racist Jewish film directors, producers, writers? Of course. But it is it limited mainly to just them? Hardly. I do not see how saying it is a Jewish thing adds any light to the issue. It seems to be more an issue of white racism, which affects American Jews not as Jews but as white Americans. And it also affects black Americans too, sad to say, like Tyler Perry and Lee Daniels, who have learned part of their self-image from white people, like through Hollywood itself.
LikeLike
This movie sucks a big time (though it does have one of the most (unintentionally) hilarious scenes I’ve seen).
Now, the first film was better (in many aspects; arguably, one of them NOT being race). I have no idea if the original author was racist, but when in doubt, assume that he was (most of the people are, in one way or the other).
In this sense, Zula is yet another of those harmful stereotypes about black women. The only good thing about this mess is that the movie was hated by everybody, so maybe Zula’s influence on stereotypes wasn’t as strong as some other character that appear in movies people like an re-watch all the time.
On the other hand, I must be completely honest and admit I liked Thulsa Doom, as portrayed by James Earl Jones. I know many would disagree with me (particularly Ankhesen, I guess), but I really liked him. He’s probably one of my favourite movies villains.
PS- Like I said back at Ankhesen’s site, I know quite a few people who loved Zula and who didn’t see her as asexual. However, those are Grace Jones’ fans I’m talking about, so it’s not a surprise they liked Zula.
LikeLike
Also, let me say that throwing anti-Semitism in doesn’t help anyone’s arguments here.
If you fight against stereotypes you must resist the urge to use stereotypes yourself.
LikeLike
One thing I loved about the Zula character, though, was the prowess with that bad-ass staff! Fighting with polearms such as staves, halberds, bardiches, spears, and the like requires a combination of strength, dexterity, and skill…definitely nothing to sneeze at! 😎
LikeLike
Mira said:
also, let me say that throwing anti-Semitism in doesn’t help anyone’s arguments here.
If you fight against stereotypes you must resist the urge to use stereotypes yourself.
Menelik asks:
I must resist the urge to tell the truth? Are you serious? I have no time for anti anybody but I’m ready if people want to accuse me of being anti-Jewish!
Pure codswallop!
I told the simple truth. Perhaps people here would feel more comfortable if I just blamed the big, bad, white man for promoting ‘racist’ and colorist images of African-Americans in Hollywood.
An Anglo might want to hold is tongue on this matter but as a Negro, and a victim of what I speak, I aint gonna, so there!
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
@eco:
“So, whites don’t have an “us” and “them” mentality when they think of black people? Europeans don’t view black people as perpetual foreigners?”
Eeh, no. You don’t believe? Well, here you go:
former Miss Finland back in 1990’s and one of the most popular personalities in Finland. One of the most successfull beauty pageants in Europe ever. And yes, she is finnish and considers herself a finn. Has a nice R too, which is very charming when she uses our most famous curse word Perkele.
http://www.google.fi/images?q=lola+odusoga&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:fi:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=EmZxTa-SEMmFhQfOhbEw&ved=0CCoQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=619
LikeLike
How this came about jews? Oh, is it that old “jews control Hollywood so they are racists” thing again?? 😀 Oh, man.
LikeLike
Okay I vote for officially end the Jewish thing here b4 the comments turn into a “blame the Jew” fest. It’s clear that Menelik is going to maintain his position and we are going to keep ours, so their is no reason to further molest the situation
LikeLike
I must be completely honest and admit I liked Thulsa Doom, as portrayed by James Earl Jones. I know many would disagree with me (particularly Ankhesen, I guess), but I really liked him. He’s probably one of my favourite movies villains.
I didn’t like that black man played the villain in a sea of white folks (hero included), but James Earl Jones is an undeniably impressive actor.
LikeLike
The Cynic said:
is this surprising to anyone? Hollywood has told Black folk in a million different ways that they hate us.
Menelik says:
you see as long as you make statements like the above, people are going to ask: “who is hating me, hurting my children development, causing them to hate themselves?”
The answer is that somebody in Hollywood is doing it, as you yourself acknowledge above. If you desire to avoid answering the question due to the restraints of political correctness then so be it. Meanwhile a seemingly raceless, faceless, Hollywood, continues doing the very thing you refer to above “in a million different ways”…without you asking questions!
Makes no sense.
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
OK. Done!
LikeLike
@Menelik
It is YOU who sees colorism in action in that movie. You have to understand, for white people, black people are black people, no matter how light or dark skinned they are. The movie was just realistically portraying what black men like–light skinned black women. Let’s face it. There IS this bent toward light skin in the black community and black men, with the whole Black Pride thing, really don’t appreciate black beauty very well for the most part. Mind you, this is just from what I’ve observed in America, so it may not apply to bm in other places.
LikeLike
Alright, zek j has is more informed than me on this point, but, isn’t being Jewish considered that you’re apart of a religion–Judaism–and not a race of people. Anyone can be a Jew–white, black, Asian, etc.
LikeLike
I didn’t like that black man played the villain in a sea of white folks (hero included), but James Earl Jones is an undeniably impressive actor.
Well, I do think Thulsa worked because he was played by James Earl Jones. He simply made that character impressive and memorable. I sure remember him more than Conan or any other thing in the movie.
I also didn’t get that he was black up to a few years ago.
LikeLike
An Anglo might want to hold is tongue on this matter but as a Negro, and a victim of what I speak, I aint gonna, so there!
Well, I’m neither (Anglo or Negro), so here’s my take on this.
Of course you have a full right to defend yourself (about not being anti-Semite, or whatever people accused you to be; but whether you come off as such is up to Jews to decide, or whatever group is that you were talking about).
The fact your group is oppressed and treated unfairly does not give you the right to use stereotypes on other people, that’s all what I’m saying. Well, you can do that, of course you can, it’s your right to use stereotypes and “defend” your group.
But fighting stereotypes by using other stereotypes doesn’t seem like a good way to go, that’s all I’m saying. (It doesn’t give your words credibility. Remember, people should be judged based on what they write, and fighting stereotypes using other stereotypes weakens a person’s arguments).
LikeLike
Calculator:
There are several definition of Jewishness, and they aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. You can be Jewish by “blood” — according to the religious law, having a Jewish mother makes you one. You can also convert to Judaism (although it’s not that easy — Jews do not proselytize among non-Jews) and you will be considered fully Jewish.
Jews are a once common and now unique phenomenon — a nation with its own religion. That’s the source of the confusion around “who is a Jew”.
LikeLike
Gosh Mira,
you really lay it on, dontcha? Fighting stereotypes with stereotypes…looool
Madam, I told the truth. You don’t have to accept it, or believe it, but it doesn’t make it any less true. The truth is: Jews control Hollywood. Fact. The images coming out of that place are horribly harmful to my people.
I am allowed by politically correct society to say: “I am Black and Hollywood is ‘racist’! But I am not permitted to identify who these racists are!
Looooooooooooool What a laugh!
Guys, if you stop I will! But remember institutions are run by people so do be careful what you say about Hollywood because it will be a can of worms you’ll be opening.
Just letting ya know.
LikeLike
Calculator said:
For all this complaining about black women not seen as sexy or beautiful, I would like to remind people about the movie, Coming to America.
It has:
1) A beautiful black woman (portrayed as attractive)
2) An African Prince
So, you see, Hollywood can sometimes portray black people positively.
Menelik says:
“a beautiful Black woman” who happened to be bi-racial with a dark-skinned sister who was cast as a gold-digging whore! I wonder who was pursued throughout the movie and got to marry the impossibly wealthy African Prince?
Imagine a young Black girl watching that “positive” depiction of Black femalehood…
Calculator replied:
@ Menelik,
it is YOU who sees colorism… in that movie. You have to understand, for white people, black people are black people, no matter how light or dark skinned they are.
Menelik says:
Loooooooooooooooooooool
LikeLike
@Menelik
“you see as long as you make statements like the above, people are going to ask: “who is hating me, hurting my children development, causing them to hate themselves?””
What is answering any of those questions going to do to fix this problem? After we found out who’s defaming blk folks in film and tv are we suppose to put them in gas chambers to make them stop?
I already gave my suggestion on how to end this problem.
-All we can do to combat stereotypical or racist images, whether they be implicit or explicit, is to produce our own media.
What is yours? Bc w/o talking about any solutions all your doing is further reflecting on old news. Racism in this country is NEVER going to end. All we can do is maneuver around it bc asking for mercy is not gonna work
LikeLike
@Caculator
“for white people, black people are black people, no matter how light or dark skinned they are. ”
Now I don’t believe this for one minute. Their are numerous historical examples of White people judging Blacks by their color or how stereotypically African they looked. Even today I mentally smh every time a see a little light skin curly haired girl who I am suppose to believe is the daughter of two full Blk parents in commercial and photo advertisements. I swear CNN pulls out the brown paper bag every time they consider hiring someone of Afro-descent.
Here is part of my comment on Aba’s 1 drop rule post:
Check this, an excerpt from my Psych book, “Psychology Ninth Edition In Modules” by David G. Myers. Pg 705
Seeing Black: Several studies show that the more a person’s features are perceived as typical of their racial category, the more likely they are to elicit race-based responding (Maddox, 2004). In one study of 182 police officers, Jeninifer Eberhardt and her collaborators (2004, ’06) found that “Black faces looked more criminal to police officers; the more Black, the more criminal.” In a follow-up study, they found ppl more willing to give the death sentence to Black defendants having the most stereotypically Black features.
Studies even show that people prefer lighter skin when it comes to hiring.
http://www.uga.edu/columns/061002/news-skintone.html
I believe the results of these studies 1000%!
LikeLike
Madam, I told the truth. You don’t have to accept it, or believe it, but it doesn’t make it any less true. The truth is: Jews control Hollywood. Fact. The images coming out of that place are horribly harmful to my people.
All I wanted to point out you seem silly when you try to fight stereotypes by using other stereotypes, and “Jews control Hollywood” is one of those stereotypes. I have no idea who originated this one, but Jews are sure not the only guilty party for bad portrayal of black people in the media.
Furthermore, the images coming out of that place are horribly harmful to many groups of people (including “mine”) so it’s not like I have a particular reason to defend Hollywood.
But for the sake of not derailing this argument any further, I won’t mention this again. It’s not because I think what you did was right, but because this post should stay on track and revolve around the portrayal of black women in movies. As we all (hopefully) agree, black women are generally not portrayed well in films, and I think this topic deserves to be fully discussed, with black women and their benefit in its focus.
LikeLike
Whites seem to be colourists, but not the same way blacks are. You are not seen as less black (or closer to the whites) if you’re light skinned, but you are seen as less threatening (in lack of a better word).
LikeLike
@Cac
I also agree that their is a bend toward light skin Black women among BM, however it is often exaggerated. People make it seem as tho ALL blk dudes want a light bright curly/wavy/str8 haired woman and that we could nv find a dark skin woman attractive.
That is BS! FEW black guys wouldn’t turn their head if they saw Bria Myles walking by. If a blk guy doesn’t find Kenya Moore attractive there is a 99.8% chance that he is gay.
Source:Being a Black man who lives amongst Blk ppl.
“Mind you, this is just from what I’ve observed in America”
Why do I believe this has more to do with what you see on TV and your computer screen? How many Blk folks live in your neighborhood? How many do you call a friend?
LikeLike
@Cynic
I completely agree with you that white people tend to give preference to lighter-skinned black people. But they’re STILL viewed as black people. Sure, white people may treat light-skinned blacks better than dark-skinned blacks, but in the end, those light-skinned blacks are still seen as black in the eyes of whites. Do you really think that light-skinned blacks have totally 100% escaped racism?
LikeLike
@Calculator
Hell no I don’t. Having a slight advantage does not mean acceptance. That goes for Afro-biracial ppl also.
I believe many Whites look at slightly African phenotypes and go, “well you aren’t proper Black, so you can’t be THAT bad.”
LikeLike
Calculator said:
For all this complaining about black women not seen as sexy or beautiful, I would like to remind people about the movie, Coming to America.
It has:
1) A beautiful black woman (portrayed as attractive)
2) An African Prince
So, you see, Hollywood can sometimes portray black people positively.
Menelik says:
“a beautiful Black woman” who happened to be bi-racial with a dark-skinned sister who was cast as a gold-digging whore! I wonder who was pursued throughout the movie and got to marry the impossibly wealthy African Prince?
Imagine a young Black girl watching that “positive” depiction of Black femalehood…
Calculator replied:
@ Menelik,
it is YOU who sees colorism… in that movie. You have to understand, for white people, black people are black people, no matter how light or dark skinned they are.
Menelik says:
Loooooooooooooooooooool
Calculator said:
@Cynic
I COMPLETELY agree with you that white people tend to give preference to lighter-skinned black people. But they’re STILL viewed as black people. Sure, white people may treat light-skinned blacks better than dark-skinned blacks…
Menelik says:
my, you’ve changed your tune haven’t you? I wonder if the same “better” treatment light-skinned Black people applies to the movies…like especially where light versus dark-skinned Black women are concerned?
I would have thought the answer was obvious but you can take as much time coming up with it as you please lol
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
@Mira
I think colorism is a bit more pervasive among Blacks. Afro-descendant ppl in the Caribbean seem to have it the absolute worst.
LikeLike
@Cynic
**Why do I believe this has more to do with what you see on TV and your computer screen? How many Blk folks live in your neighborhood? How many do you call a friend?**
I don’t claim to know that I 100% fully understand what it is like to be black. I don’t think I’ll ever know completely what it’s like to be black. You admit that there IS a bend toward light skinned beauties in the black community, but you deny how prevalent it is.
I used to live in an all-black (well, almost black since I was there) neighborhood. I have sinced moved from there. My current neighborhood is very mixed. I’d say around a solid 25%-35% is black.
I think the light skin bend in beauty is far more prevalent than you think. Perhaps it’s because that you’re a black man that you don’t like to admit it. I’ve heard MANY black women complain about the colorism that black men hold. One of my high school teachers, a black man, was married to a white woman. I just came back from the grocery store where I saw a bm with a light skinned black bw. I know a bm who works at the mall who is married to a white woman. IR couples are sometimes seen in my area–every time it is a bm with a ww.
Almost 1 in 4 black men now marry white. So, I’d argue, that the light skin preference is more prevalent than you say. Here’s the source:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/black-women-marry-interracial-marriage-common/story?id=10830719
LikeLike
I wouldn’t know. I really don’t know. My only source for this is media and what people say on the Internet (which, as we all know, is far from being accurate). But from what I can tell, many whites can’t really tell the difference between a light skinned and a dark skinned black person, unless it’s an “extreme” (a very, very light skin or a very dark).
(On the other hand, I am not sure if blacks can tell who is considered light or dark skinned among whites).
There sure seems to be the trend of threatening dark skinned blacks and “more media appropriate” lighter skinned blacks, but I am not completely sure if it’s something prevalent in movies produced by whites (black movies often make the same distinction, I’m afraid).
The problem is, valuing light skin over the dark, particularly for females, seem to be quite prevalent in humans of all races. Colourism didn’t start with slavery or whites; originally, it was about class and who had to work outdoors and who was rich enough to stay as light as possible. Racism only elevated this view, but unlike some other things, colourism didn’t originate with racism- it just goes pretty well with it.
LikeLike
I admire Grace. She’s unique, has always been herself, and doesn’t pander to mens’ fucked-up fantasies like the other “beauties” mentioned.
She may not fit Abagond’s idea of beauty, but he’s probably turned off by Whoopi Goldberg and Alek Wek too.
LikeLike
@Menelik
Oh, I’m sorry. I did not realize that light-skinned black people have fully escaped racism–my bad.
LikeLike
@Cac
Ugh your interpreting that information wrong. Their is an IR gap between black men and black women bc white guys and black girls don’t like each other, not bc black men are dying for white women. In 2008 only 13% of BM was wifed to a non-blk chick. That is NOT a huge number, especially considering we are living in a country surrounded by whites.
“I’ve heard MANY black women complain about the colorism that black men hold”
This is gonna sound sexist, but a lot of them are just insecure females who suffer from rumor(check what I wrote above) and confirmation bias. I see what blk girls say about colorism and IR marriage and many of them are delusional!
“Almost 1 in 4 black men now marry white.”
First off, you can also describe a number like 22% as being a little over a fifth of BM married to non-blk women. Secondly, that was ONE year(2008) of ppl who actually got married. Not the average number of all married couples. The number could of stagnated or dropped in ’09 and ’10 for all we know.
You have swallowed the same delusional lies that whiny and sexist Black women have been spewing for the past five years now. What’s next? Are you gonna tell me every black man is gay and on the “down-low”?
LikeLike
Calculator said:
@Menelik
Oh, I’m sorry. I did not realize that light-skinned black people have fully escaped racism–my bad.
Menelik replied:
no one alive can ever find evidence of me suggesting any such thing!
LikeLike
Why is this thread slowly turning into black women bashing?
LikeLike
@Cac
“One of my high school teachers, a black man, was married to a white woman. I just came back from the grocery store where I saw a bm with a light skinned black bw. I know a bm who works at the mall who is married to a white woman.”
I can’t believe you actually thought it was a good idea to put these three little examples(of what seem to be tainted with confirmation bias) in a debate to prove BM are so damn color-struck. That is so not how you debate…
And btw just as many BW, if not more, have color preferences when it comes to attraction as BM
LikeLike
@Mira
We are going on a tangent. I’ll stop now, but I fail to see any Black women bashing anywhere in the comment section
LikeLike
**You have swallowed the same delusional lies that whiny and sexist Black women have been spewing for the past five years now.**
OK, so black women are now sexist. What a sexist statement.
It seems that bm are still overly sensitive about the idea of bm obsessing over light-skinned women in general–even when black women point it out.
LikeLike
OK, I’ll stop too.
LikeLike
@Menelik Charles
Menelik said:
no but I’m responding to these words: “The film was created for young white men. White men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive”.
my reply was: white men DO NOT believe that the majority of Black women look like Grace Jones so this was an obvious attempt to make them appear unattractive.
My reply:
What?! How the hell does my comment imply your reply?! White men do not consider black women to be as attractive as white women. Because of that the roles Ankhesen Mié suggested here:
“You’re telling Moi that in sword-and-sorcery ‘verse, they didn’t have room for say, a delectable siren? How about a sultry enchantress? A mystical ancient goddess? An enigmatic oracle? How about a spy/assassin masquerading as a sexy dancing girl?”
would not have been available to a black actress. White men prefer to see white women as the sexy/beautiful characters.
Jones played Zula because from a white person’s perspective she looks weird enough to be a foreign, exotic character.
No one was trying to make black women look unattractive. No one thought that Zula is representative of black women. The audience didn’t care how black women are represented. They wanted to see attractive white man and white women in exotic places, amongst exotic people. You are assuming that the way black women were portrayed is intentional and malicious when in fact the writers and the audience didn’t care about the black character at all. In their eyes Zula was just an accessory, an unimportant addition to the list of characters that were supposed to make the story more “exotic”.
Menelik said:
then what is the point in you saying “white men in general do not think that black women are particularly attractive” since you are now suggesting Grace Jones neither looks like a Black women nor was representative of one?
My reply:
What?! Zula, not Grace Jones! I was writing about Zula! Zula wasn’t meant to represent black women. She isn’t really a fully developed human character, but this alien sidekick cliche.
In my earlier comment I explained why (in my opinion) a black women wouldn’t get a sexy/beautiful character – because white men prefer to see white women play those. Then I explained why a black woman was seen as appropriate for the Zula role – because white people see black people as foreign and exotic. It’s easier for a white person to see a black person as an alien.
Menelik said:
you’re really mixing stuff up, aren’t you? “Exotic and foreign” does not suggest a threat. Moreover, white Americans (we’re talking about the US here, buddy) don’t view Blacks as foreign but rather as potential racial competitors.
Now you may talk about “us and them” since we are dealing with opposing races here!
My reply:
Yeah, it doesn’t suggest a threat, because there is no threat. Think of fat women. They don’t get to play the sexy/beautiful characters not because of some conspiracy that makes them look unattractive, but because the mainstream (mostly white people) already sees them as unattractive. Fat women aren’t threatening, because they are generally seen as unworthy of playing the sexy roles. That’s exactly how black women are perceived by the mainstream. White men prefer white women and white women know white men aren’t lusting over black women. There is no threat. Generally black women are simply seen (by most white people) as less attractive than white women and that’s why they aren’t really competing for the same roles.
Menelik said:
but again this exotic status is not accorded African-Americans, least of all to their women. When ‘Black’ sex or romantic interests are cast in films it’s the nearness to the white norm which is sought NOT its exotic distance.
My reply:
They may be near the norm, but they can never be the norm, can they?
Black people, especially black women rarely play the roles of people. In mainstream movies they usually get to play black people, because the race of the characters is usually considered important to the story. So when a black actor/actress gets a part their race and their “otherness” is usually a factor.
@ Sam
Sam said:
Eeh, no. You don’t believe? Well, here you go:
former Miss Finland back in 1990′s and one of the most popular personalities in Finland. One of the most successfull beauty pageants in Europe ever. And yes, she is finnish and considers herself a finn. Has a nice R too, which is very charming when she uses our most famous curse word Perkele.
My reply:
I’ve never heard of her, but the fact that you emphasized the way she talks suggests it somehow surprised you. That means you subconsciously think she is just like a Finn, but not a Finn. If she was an ordinary Finn, talking like a Finn wouldn’t be noteworthy.
LikeLike
Um… I kno I said I was gonna stop, but
1)I want to say that when I said sexist Black women I was not talking about all Black women. Just the sexist ones
2)Let’s just say that we took an opinion poll of the United States about their thoughts on a political issue. If 87% of Americans say that they oppose gay marriage would you go on to call the US a liberal gay-friendly utopia? If just 13% said they are opposed to death sentences for homosexuality would you say most Americans are tolerant towards homosexuals?
Most people would look at 87% and see an over-whelming majority. Why doesn’t that work with IR marriage rates and BM?
Source:Being a Black man who lives amongst Blk ppl.
Those were all rhetorical questions btw. I’m official done with my tangent now 🙂
LikeLike
The colourism thing is getting off track. I have a post on it if you want to continue it there:
I will delete all further comments on it here except those that talk about colourism in Hollywood films.
LikeLike
Eco said:
fat women aren’t threatening, because they are generally seen as unworthy of playing the sexy roles. That’s exactly how black women are perceived by the mainstream.
Menelik replied:
rubbish! Black women ARE threatening to the white beauty status quo which is the very reason they are marginalised, misrepresented and vilified by Hollywood. This is why bi-racial are used by white supremacists in Hollywood to uphold the white beauty superior beauty myth.
Eco said:
no one was trying to make black women look unattractive. No one thought that Zula is representative of black women. The audience didn’t care how black women are represented.
Menelik replies:
man, I’d hate to have the thoughts in your head! All this stuff happens by accident does it? Man, you got it bad!
Eco said:
white people see black people as foreign and exotic. It’s easier for a white person to see a black person as an alien.
Menelik replies:
“foreign, exotic and alien”? Do you have any humility at all? What I said was: when ‘Black’ sex or romantic interests are cast in films it’s the nearness to the white norm which is sought NOT its exotic distance.
Eco said:
what? Zula, not Grace Jones! I was writing about Zula! Zula wasn’t meant to represent black women. She isn’t really a fully developed human character, but this alien sidekick cliche.
Menelik replied:
and how many Black female characters in long-running series (whether for adults or teens) have their characters fully developed beyond a life attached to some fully developed white character?
In other words, how was the Grace Jones character (as YOU described it) greatly different that of most Black female actors in Hollywood?
Grace Jones FULLY represented Black women’s role in Hollywood as Ankhesen Mié makes abundantly clear! And you can’t see this, right? Not even as you reside, there in America, in the belly of the beast?
Wow!
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
Mira said
In the film, Thulsa Doom wasn’t supposed to be Black. He was supposed to represent a member of an ancient race of Hyboria, something of a proto-White person. I thought that was interesting, because James Earl Jones as Thulsa Doom probably does resmemble what ancient Europeans looked like.
http://www.thecimmerian.com/wp-content/uploads//2009/02/thulsa-doom.bmp
LikeLike
Sagat… did you STEAL that link form the Cimemerian????
LikeLike
@Menelik
Menelik said:
rubbish! Black women ARE threatening to the white beauty status quo which is the very reason they are marginalised, misrepresented and vilified by Hollywood. This is why bi-racial are used by white supremacists in Hollywood to uphold the white beauty superior beauty myth.
My reply:
How is black beauty threatening white beauty when it’s obvious black beauty cannot win this fight (now or in the foreseeable future)? White people are the majority. They are the mainstream. They have the buying power. Black beauty could win only if large numbers of whites started seeing it as superior to white beauty. That’s just not going to happen (in our lifetimes), because most people prefer their own race.
Even the demographic shift isn’t going to significantly change anything. White looking Latinos are going to join whiteness just like Italians, Jews, Greeks, the Irish, etc. had done before.
Menelik said:
man, I’d hate to have the thoughts in your head! All this stuff happens by accident does it? Man, you got it bad!
My reply:
That’s not what I wrote at all. I said that white people don’t care how black women are represented. They do care about white women and that limits the roles available for other-than-white actresses. They don’t care when black women get the humiliating, dehumanizing roles. It’s their ignorance and lack of empathy that prevents them from seeing they are insulting and hurting other people. There is no conspiracy against black women. It’s just white people who care only for their own kind.
Menelik said:
“foreign, exotic and alien”? Do you have any humility at all? What I said was: when ‘Black’ sex or romantic interests are cast in films it’s the nearness to the white norm which is sought NOT its exotic distance.
My reply:
Yeah, they are close to the norm, but they are still fundamentally different. They cannot be the white norm. That makes them exotic, alien, foreign – however you want to call their “otherness”. They don’t have to be very exotic to still be exotic.
Menelik said:
and how many Black female characters in long-running series (whether for adults or teens) have their characters fully developed beyond a life attached to some fully developed white character?
In other words, how was the Grace Jones character (as YOU described it) greatly different that of most Black female actors in Hollywood?
Grace Jones FULLY represented Black women’s role in Hollywood as Ankhesen Mié makes abundantly clear! And you can’t see this, right? Not even as you reside, there in America, in the belly of the beast?
My reply:
Why are you accusing me of things I haven’t done? I know black women usually get to play the lousy roles or sidekicks, or stereotypes. I’ve never said that’s not true. My point is that there is no anti-BW conspiracy. White Hollywood simply cares only about their own and everyone else gets the leftovers. Black women don’t get the lousy parts because Hollywood wants to bring them down. They get the inferior roles because Hollywood doesn’t give a damn how black women are represented and because of their white ignorance they ends up hurting people.
Oh! I don’t live in America. I thought that my limited vocabulary and poor grammar gave away the fact that English isn’t my first language.
LikeLike
@eco:
“I’ve never heard of her, but the fact that you emphasized the way she talks suggests it somehow surprised you. That means you subconsciously think she is just like a Finn, but not a Finn. If she was an ordinary Finn, talking like a Finn wouldn’t be noteworthy.”
😀 yeah, right! Her mother lanugauge is finnish and she is finnish as rye bread but she breaks the hard R like the french do, not because she is a foreigner or can not speak her native langauge, but because the way she was born (she has a slight speaking disability, which is common among us finns). It may be surprise for you, because you live in a country in which racism is institutionalized, but not for me. After all, she also speaks with a slight Turku (her home town on the south west coast) dialect 😀
I presented her to you just to show that even here in the whitest of the white North Europe we chose overwhelmingly a black woman to represent the traditional finnish beauty way back in the 90’s! 😀
I’m sorry that she is a finn, considered by all finns as a finn, and not like you claim some strange alien acting like a finn. You may think like that because you do not get your head around the fact that yes, there are black finns 😀
Did you know that there was a black guy fighting in the finnish army in Winter War 1939-40? Did you know that the first black teatcher in Finland was a young woman over hundred years ago who teatched white kids? Well, now you do. 😀
And about the claim that whites see black women unattractive or want to see only whites in sexy or romantic leads: that is whole lotta BS. Industry thinks so, we don’t. We never did. You want the proof? Where these biracial people came from? Moon? Whites have always seen black women very attractive, just as white women have always seen black men attractive.
The whole “unattractive” mumbling comes from “race realists” and such, always have. When heavyweight champion Jack Johnson was going out with white women almost hudred years ago what that was all about? The racists figured that he must have paid for sex, kidnapped the women or somehow forced them to live with him. They just could not get their heads around that these white women liked this black guy. Just like the ones who still go around telling these fairy tales how whites do not like black women or how white women do not like black men.
Of course white men like good looking black women! White women drool over good looking black men. Why not? 😀 We always have. Throw a white guy among totally black population and see what happens. If that population accepts him, he will marry one of the black women and have some kids etc. Same happens with a white woman. It has happend for centuries! It will happen. Just because we are all humanbeings and we are attracted to beauty, being that black or white or what ever color.
Racists can go around promoting their own fears and attitudes as much as they want, but they are very hush hush about the fact that blacks and whites have done it for centuries now. The difference today is that now we can talk about it as it is: normal thing. Well, most of us can. Some still have problems with it and need to believe in such fantazies as “white people do not find black women attractive”.
Todays white audience has no problem in interracial realtionships, which by the way are becoming more and more common now that the studio heads and the japanese owners of the major studios are figuring that out (about 20 years after the fact). Not at least in Europe.
Maybe it is an issue in USA, but not here. Nobody jumps from their seats or blabber about race if in a movie or some tv show there is a biracial couple. In one of the longest running finnish tv series Kotikatu, they had a black FINNISH woman living with ah white guy, they had a kid etc. This was way back in the 90’s when the series began.
One black FINNISH actor played war hero Rokka in a new theater version of the Väinö Linnas classic novel Unknown soldier and did it so that nobody payed any attention of him being black. That was no the issue.
So, sometimes slogans like “white people do not want to see black women as blablabla” are not the truth. They are racist ideas. And if the studio heads and producers think like that, it does not mean that the audience does. I belive that the audience is much more tolerant than the studios believe.
I think majority of americans do not care if a white woman would be living with a black man on screen. Or black woman with a white guy. I mean, we have seen a white guy going at it with a blue woman and that movie is all time box office hit! 😀
LikeLike
@sam
Wow! Finland seems like an extremely nice heavenly place to live–no racists! I heard that hunting and the hot springs are national pastimes.
LikeLike
@ Sam
You are so full of it. 😀 It took me about 5 seconds to find this site:
http://nemoo.wordpress.com/2007/06/07/are-you-a-racist-in-finland/
Clearly, people of color seem to think that Finland isn’t such a post-racial utopia.
A white man may be attracted to a black woman, but that doesn’t change the fact that the majority of white men prefers white women. That doesn’t mean they consider everyone else as ugly. It “only” says that given the possibility to be with whichever woman they want most white men would choose white women.
I have more than my opinion to prove that. Just look at lad magazines targeted at white men. Nothing classy – just the ones that show women as pieces of meat. How many of the women are black? One in ten? You can also do what Abagond used to do and go through the “most beautiful” lists published on the internet. Again, about one in ten? Also, the black women in the white magazines tend to be only certain types of black women, not the whole spectrum of black beauty.
Sure, in most cases a man will marry/be with a woman whose physical appearance doesn’t represent his ideal, but that doesn’t change the fact that for most white men the ideal is white.
Filmmaker are aware of that and when they are making a movie targeted at white people they know that hiring a white girl to play the sexy/beautiful role is the safest choice.
I’m not going to touch the “interracial relationships on TV” subject. That’s a topic for another, long discussion and I’m not up for it. I’ll only say that it’s not as equal and charmingly post-racial as you make it sound to be and that there are a lot of double standards and sexism involved. In my opinion it’s the same in the US, Europe, everywhere.
I’m not living in a country where racism is institutionalized. Actually, I could say that we don’t have racism… mostly because we don’t have many people to be racist to.
Ethnic minorities are less than 5% of society, but we do have black athletes, elected officials, celebrities, actors, famous interracial couples, etc. Those things mean nothing. We are a racist country. Just like virtually everyone else. Not that I’m proud of it – I’m just being honest and stating what I believe to be a fact.
I’m a 26 year old white guy from Poland.
LikeLike
Finland vs. Poland
Who will win?
LikeLike
Eco said:
a white man may be attracted to a black woman, but that doesn’t change the fact that the majority of white men prefers white women.
Menelik asks:
and the majority of Indian, Pakistani, Arab, French, German, Nigerian, Congolese, African-American, men prefer women of their own race/ethnicity. So what point are you making, aside from the freaking obvious?
I’ll have you know that the majority of Black women prefer Black men to white men also. Is this in anyway a surprise to you, sir?
Eco said:
we are a racist country. Not that I’m proud of it – I’m just being honest and stating what I believe to be a fact.
I’m a 26 year old white guy from Poland.
Menelik says:
so it now transpires that you’re a “WHITE GUY” from a virtually all-white country! This is an extremely sensitive topic you’ve chosen to participate in, sir. Don’t you think you might approach it with a little more humility considering what you are, and where you are from?
I mean, to be TELLING Black people what the state of play is in an industry on US soil, and which effects them directly (including myself) is a tad arrogant? I guess you’ll be telling me next about Trinidad & Tobago, right?
Arrogance attached to a privileged white skin just isn’t a good look, Eco, my man!
Just saying.
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
I mean, to be TELLING Black people what the state of play is in an industry on US soil, and which effects them directly (including myself) is a tad arrogant?
I agree. But if you permit me, EXACTLY what Americans often do. (Telling people around the world what to do and what’s going on in their own countries)
(It’s unrelated to this thread… But I just had to say it).
LikeLike
Eco,
I’ll get back to ya on the other stuff later; I’m off to take my daughter to Saturday school.
Hold the fort, will you please, Sam?
LikeLike
Okay, I kno there is racism in this country, but it can’t be this extreme. I don’t believe Hollywood types when they give us that, “Black people don’t sell” BS. Are you really trying to convince me that the average White American is damn racist that will refuse to spend money on a film/show that shows a Black person as the lead or playing a leading female role???
Okay let’s say that Whites prefer Whites when it comes to attraction. I don’t see anything wrong with that(if it’s not based off hater feelings of supremacy). If everyone is capable of being attracted to another race, after you find a super attractive girl, does race matter? I mean if she is already to the point of attraction, why make a big deal out of race?
LikeLike
Let’s say a girl like this was a really great actor. Why would Hollywood have any qualms about playing a leading female role where she is sought after by the leading male?
I’m starting to think this is more about racism and not about attraction. There is a racial war in this video’s comment section. One white commenter says, “This sheboon is ugly.” People please answer me honestly(especially eco). Would the average White guy HONESTLY not find Meagan Good hot?
LikeLike
Ugh… damn embed! I better work this time. Anyways. Are you guys trying to tell me the average White dude wouldn’t bone Kenya Moore? I want honest answers to this question. If you say no white folks are either letting race cloud their judgement or standards of beauty are WAAYY different within your culture!
I advise watching with the sound off. The music is horrible
LikeLike
I can only speak about the guys I know, but most of them think Kenya Moore is extremely attractive.
But these are not white Americans…
Still, finding a black woman attractive and being racist are not mutually exclusive.
LikeLike
@eco: and where I did say that there are no racists in Finland? But I guess you being a polish and from Poland where primeminister, deceased one, was a stone cold racist, you know these things, right? 😀
I think you are just pissed that our national beauty queen was a black woman almost twenty years ago and let me remind you: she won popular vote hands down. Nobody else came even close. That would not happen in Poland even today, would it? 😀
That fact that Holywood is racist does not mean we all are, excluding yourself of course. You might have the same bias as those in the mainstream media, maybe you are just scared of black women like so many others of yourkind, I don’t know.
I do know that when there has been B/W couples in brittish tv series (at least for thirty years on) there has been no race riots around anywhere in Europe. I don’t know about Poland. You might have had and frankly, that would be no surprise. 😀
I have no idea what you are really rtying to say but if you claim that media does not show black women in lead roles because white audiences would rebel, you are as stupid as those producers who seem think so. And on that note, you are samekind of racist yourself. You know, some fifty years behind times.
Show me a one white guy who pukes when he sees Beyonce! Show me a one white guy who saw Tina Turner in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome and instantly said: “Thats it, I can’t watch this movie because that black woman should not be in that role!”. 😀
Show me one white guy who finds it offensive when he sees that black female criminal pathologist in CSI Miami because she should not be in that role. Show me one white guy who has seen Halle Berry in lead roles and said at that second: “hey, that black woman is disgusting and in wrong role!”. Well, come to think of it, there might be some guys like that in Poland, yourself included of course. 😀
Fact is that this is 2011. Absolute majority of white audiences in USA or Europe do not give a hoot weather the lead lady in some movie is black or white, Poland excluded of course. After all, you said it out loud: it is a racist country.
We want to see good actresses, balck, white, brown, asian, what ever. If the movie is good I do not care if the leading lady is a pygmi from the rainforests of Cameroon. To say that audiences won’t accept black woman in the romantic lead because the whites want to see a white women only is ridicilous. It is just the excuse Hollywood uses because those morons are way behind their times.
And on that note, who teached Tarzan to make that sweet love to Jane? Apes? I don’t think so. He was in cahoots with that one non cannibalistic tribe so hey, all those black african queens around with bare brests…
I think they just left that out from the original Tarzan books because, well, the white audiences wouldn’t accept that White Ape gets it going on with some stunning black beauty. And then there is the fact that those black ladies quite correctly assumed that a guy living in trees with apes is not that ideal husband material, foolin around or not 😀
LikeLike
@cynic: I would marry Kenya or Meagan in flat second anyday of the year. But I doubt they would marry me 😀 Honestly!
LikeLike
Still to this day it seems like one of Hollywood’s favourite pastimes is promoting stereotypes. I suppose if one day stereotypes are a thing of the past, Hollywood will invent some. They also still do as if “miscegenation” is illegal.
Grace Jones is an icon, almost like art that has turned human. Even more so she was in the eighties. Just look at her photos with Jean-Paul Goude. I’m still a big fan of her albums with Sly & Robbie. I think she always had a healthy sense for selling her image without selling her soul. I bet she had a good laugh about those Hollowood fools, especially when her paycheck came in…
Casting Grace Jones next to Arnie is like hauling a valuable sculpture in the back of a pickup truck next to a chainsaw.
On a side note, there are quite a few Senegalese women of her type. Tall, charismatic and with plenty of character. The rest is make-up 😉
Although very slim women are usually not my thing, I find her stunning in this interview
LikeLike
I think Grace Jones is gorgeous, but I’ve always disliked her odd makeup and hairstyles. With a more conventional look like the one in the clip above, you suddenly realise she’s pretty stunning, whether it’s natural hair or straightened.
I’m not a black woman, but I’ve always felt uncomfortable about the “freakishness” in her style. I do understand and respect that it’s her right to expression; however, I also think that non-whites do not read her style the way that she intended. Instead of interpreting it as her individual style, they’re walking away thinking that this androgyny/unfemininity is something that’s common among black women.
LikeLike
“And about the claim that whites see black women unattractive or want to see only whites in sexy or romantic leads: that is whole lotta BS. Industry thinks so, we don’t. We never did. You want the proof? Where these biracial people came from? Moon? Whites have always seen black women very attractive, just as white women have always seen black men attractive. ”
i think it’s overrated, too. But racism does still exist and racists will only see what they want to see. If you put an attractive black woman in foward of them, they’ll come up with some “she’s mixed or she must not be really “black” bs. Black racist do the same with whites like Kim because ONLY blacks can a big butt. If one of them own is ugly as sin, they excuse that as the exception or same “natural” ethnic feature. For example, Uma Therman’s witch nose, Sarah Jessica Parker’s looking like a confused horse, or Fantasia over-sized man jaw or Jill Scott being really fat.
“On a side note, there are quite a few Senegalese women of her type. Tall, charismatic and with plenty of character. The rest is make-up
Although very slim women are usually not my thing, I find her stunning in this interview”
She looks like a few people in my family. I never thought of her features as exotic or different. I love the fact that there’s bw like her and Iman. I love slim bodies. Thick is okay, but not something I can relate to. I’m in a weird place becuase I don’t fit either standard of “black” beauty. I’m not light-skinned with “good” hair (hate the word)/european-looking or dark-skinned with a thick figure with a round butt and afro textured hait. I would love to see bw with reddish skin and dark-lips. Does anyone who of any actress with naturally purple lips that aren’t dark brown ? Alot of other blacks find them weird looking. I don’t see why ? Is it really that odd of a feature ? Are blacks with a reddish-complexion uncommon ? I think that they should start writing blacks as people first. Why almost every “black” always has to be about the hardships of being black ? Being black isn’t the end of the world. i can’t relate to any Tyler perry or that suicide movie for something. (I forgot.) i don’t know. I’m considered very attractive to alot of white and non-black. Sometimes they’ll talk to over the white girls in the bar. I had more issues with getting dating due to being overweight than race. Now a size 6, I have no problems getting non-black men.
LikeLike
“I think Grace Jones is gorgeous, but I’ve always disliked her odd makeup and hairstyles. With a more conventional look like the one in the clip above, you suddenly realise she’s pretty stunning, whether it’s natural hair or straightened.
I’m not a black woman, but I’ve always felt uncomfortable about the “freakishness” in her style. I do understand and respect that it’s her right to expression; however, I also think that non-whites do not read her style the way that she intended. Instead of interpreting it as her individual style, they’re walking away thinking that this androgyny/unfemininity is something that’s common among black women.”
I think that’s because people define blacks only in box. Black culture is very diverse and we should embrace that. There’s nothing wrong with being different. I think that that the main reason why black america wouldn’t accept her. When, I hated myslef, I though she was ugly. I was told that my features were ugly because they were “black”, my accent was bad( it don’t have a “black” accent) and that my culture was wrong because isn’t wasn’t real ” African” American. This is why we have so many issuses. Graces’s skin is very pretty.
LikeLike
Grace Jones is a very beautiful woman and very clever.
LikeLike
@Menelik
Menelik said:
“and the majority of Indian, Pakistani, Arab, French, German, Nigerian, Congolese, African-American, men prefer women of their own race/ethnicity. So what point are you making, aside from the freaking obvious?
I’ll have you know that the majority of Black women prefer Black men to white men also. Is this in anyway a surprise to you, sir?”
My reply:
Tell that to Sam. Sam apparently believes that people (or specifically white men) do not tend to prefer women of their race.
Menelik said:
so it now transpires that you’re a “WHITE GUY” from a virtually all-white country! This is an extremely sensitive topic you’ve chosen to participate in, sir. Don’t you think you might approach it with a little more humility considering what you are, and where you are from?
I mean, to be TELLING Black people what the state of play is in an industry on US soil, and which effects them directly (including myself) is a tad arrogant? I guess you’ll be telling me next about Trinidad & Tobago, right?
Arrogance attached to a privileged white skin just isn’t a good look, Eco, my man!
Just saying.
My reply:
No, no, no. You need humility. All this time my point wasn’t about what do black people feel, think nor how they are affected by actions of white men. I keep writing about white men. The motivation behind their actions, their preferences, their world view and their emotions – the issues I do know and understand. YOU are being arrogant, because even now, when you know that I am white you still believe that I don’t know what I’m talking about.
@The Cynic
The Cynic said:
People please answer me honestly(especially eco). Would the average White guy HONESTLY not find Meagan Good hot?
My reply:
In my personal opinion she looks absolutely gorgeous.
Could she sell a movie to a predominantly white audience? Doubtful. Her facial features definitely don’t look white. That could have been a problem.
The Cynic said:
White dude wouldn’t bone Kenya Moore?
My reply:
I think she doesn’t have the right body type to appeal to the white mainstream. White people in general prefer thin female bodies over thick ones.
@Sam
“and where I did say that there are no racists in Finland?”
Here, when you were talking about the beauty queen: “I’m sorry that she is a finn, considered by ALL finns as a finn”. So, are all Finns acceptant of her, or are some Finns racist? You can’t have both. Let me guess: the country isn’t racist except for a few bad apples?
I love how easily you dismissed the unfavorable opinions about your country voiced by people of color. I bet they are exaggerated, right?
Also, it’s great that you are bringing up my nationality to try to smear me by association. Such attacks only make your point look weak. You wouldn’t have to do it, if you could prove your points in a logical, polite discussion.
Your view of my country seems to be severely distorted. We are racist, but not as racist as you think we are, but let’s stay on topic.
“I have no idea what you are really rtying to say but if you claim that media does not show black women in lead roles because white audiences would rebel, you are as stupid as those producers who seem think so.”
First smearing by association and now a straw man fallacy… I haven’t said someone would rebel. I believe that because the white mainstream prefers white beauty movies with white actresses in the sexy/beautiful roles are more likely to be popular and earn a lot of money.
It’s not like we are living in a world where there are no movies with black actors and actresses in lead roles. We do know that the white mainstream doesn’t really pay much attention to them. Unless it’s a movie that can make a white person thankful for being white, like “Precious”.
“Show me one white guy who finds it offensive when he sees that black female criminal pathologist in CSI Miami because she should not be in that role. Show me one white guy who has seen Halle Berry in lead roles and said at that second: “hey, that black woman is disgusting and in wrong role!”. Well, come to think of it, there might be some guys like that in Poland, yourself included of course.”
More ad hominems and straw mans… It’s not about being offended or disgusted by the images of beautiful black women. It’s about the fact that a large part of the audience may change the channel to watch a show staring a white girl whose beauty they prefer.
“Fact is that this is 2011. Absolute majority of white audiences in USA or Europe do not give a hoot weather the lead lady in some movie is black or white”
Seriously, you are claiming that the majority of audiences in the USA and Europe, are NOT racist? SERIOUSLY? People all over the world care about race. They vote for their beauty standards with money and their attention. That’s why Megan Fox is popular and Meagan Good isn’t. The first one can attract a larger audience simply because she is white, not because she is objectively more beautiful.
“To say that audiences won’t accept black woman in the romantic lead because the whites want to see a white women only is ridicilous.”
Yeah, it is ridiculous. It’s also another straw man and a misrepresentation of my points. Whites prefer other whites. They are not exclusively attracted to whites. Can you see the difference?
LikeLike
yes, there is actually a conspiracie against bw in hollywood. black people in general. i know that you’ve alread discussed the jews, but it is known that the jews use black people as a scapegoat to keep the hatred of white people directed at black people and not them. that is why they protray black people in their media in such a horrible light.
LikeLike
@eco
Well okay then, thx 4 the response.
I still don’t get why it is so important for white audiences to see White faces all the time tho. I’m black and I have no problem seeing whites in movies/media. In fact, a lot of my favorite books, films, and television shows are filled with white folks. The only things that disturb me are
1)Consistently seeing black ppl as negative stereotypes.
I like seeing normal blacks like the characters off of “The Fresh Prince of Bell Air” or the “Bill Cosby Show.”
2)Knowing that talented non-white actors and actresses are being passed up for non-race specific roles just bc they are non-white.
Earlier I stated that I don’t believe the avg Euro-American is so damn racist that they would refuse to spend money on a film/show that shows a Black person as a lead.
Do you think that last statement was untrue? If so, why is it important for whites to see themselves on screen over and over again in a variety of main roles?
*Keep in mind I am well aware that white folks make up the majority of the US pop., so it makes sense that they are mostly shown on screen. However, I think most ppl would agree that their are many supposedly race-neutral roles where non-white actors just aren’t welcome.
LikeLike
@tariq
Well known??? Where is your source that confirms this conspiracy? Do you know where the Jews meet up to create their diabolical plans to rule the world? Or maybe hey don’t have to meet bc they have super Jew telepathy powers?
Lol I know it’s wrong, but I get a kick out of Jewish conspiracy theories. Some of em are just so ridiculous I can’t help, but laugh.
LikeLike
I’m watching Conan the Destroyer (1984), and while I have all the proper respect due to Grace Jones, the character of Zula never appealed to Moi.
The entire film was bad… even in my hickish home town people were laughing at multiple points in the film when it was originally released in 1984. The first film was at least tolerable and had one accomplished actor (James Earl Jones..) but the sequel was atrocious. As for why they didn’t chose any of the other actresses you listed..well half were unknowns when the film was shot (1983..) and Shari Belafonte running around in a Sword and Fantasy film just strikes me as absurd. Certainly Grace Jones can look very elegant. ( and for those who think that White guys think she’s ugly.. wrong.. she had a child with a French (White) designer and dated Dolph Lundgren for many years) As for her look in the film …. it was very close to how she appeared in concerts at the time… she even carried one of her (male) designers on stage once, hamming up her whole androgynous thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if she had some hand in the design of her outfit and hairstyle for the film.
I would agree her part was tokenish…but the whole film reeked to high (or is it low..?) heaven and in reality was a well funded bad B movie.
A clip from this cinematic masterpiece:
Conan the musical:
LikeLike
FWIW two interviews with Grace Jones from 1984 and 1985:
LikeLike
@eco:
“Seriously, you are claiming that the majority of audiences in the USA and Europe, are NOT racist? SERIOUSLY? People all over the world care about race. They vote for their beauty standards with money and their attention. That’s why Megan Fox is popular and Meagan Good isn’t. The first one can attract a larger audience simply because she is white, not because she is objectively more beautiful.”
Yeah, I am seriously claiming that majority of people are not racists. I know that sounds terrible for a racist like you, but hey, don’t worry. It will happen in your racist utopia Poland too someday 😀
You guys lived under the communist regime for what, fifty years (since you could not stop them to invade your country, like we finns did, and twice just to make it sure), and like in all former Soviet Block nations, you are feeling the pains of growing up. Racism is en vogue in your country, in Hungary, in Ukraine etc. So you are not alone, buddy. You are not alone. There are lot of ex-communist country people who still think like you, even though it is changing. Slowly but surely. 😀
I suggest, now that you finally can travel freely, a visit into say London or Paris. Sure, you can find racists there too if you feel lonely, but you will be amazed that to the overwhelming majority it is not such a shock that there are black people walking around totally unrestricted. Yeah, I know that for a guy who was born into ex-communist country that my seem incredible. But it is real. 😀
Also, you will notice that in national tv-news there are black people reading the news in many European countries!!! Amazing isn’t it? 😀 Yes, not in Poland, since you are, like you say proudly, a racist country. There is a black news anchor in Sweden and in Finland too!! Imagine that! Unfortunately for you, most of the viewers in Finland seem to accept that just like that. No race riots here either on this one too. 😀
“I believe that because the white mainstream prefers white beauty movies with white actresses in the sexy/beautiful roles are more likely to be popular and earn a lot of money.”
See, what you belive, despite that you feel that all the whites are racists like yourself, is not the truth. You are not all of us whites. I know, it sounds crazy, but thats the way it is. No matter how much you think that your thoughts represent the majority of the whites, they do not. You just belive so. There is a big difference.
Also, you seem to be more than naive when it comes to Hollywood or how the media functions in general. That again is very typical for ex-communist country boy. You guys seem to be a bit innocent concerning the media sometimes, particulary Hollywood. Maybe it is all that bling bling, I do not know. 😀
“People all over the world care about race. They vote for their beauty standards with money and their attention.”
Right, and that is why I brought up Lola Odusoga. She became our national beauty by overwhelming popular vote, despite the fact that overwhelming majority of that overwhelming majority were as white as europeans can be, polish people included. You guys have lots of tartar, turkihs and mongol DNA, you know, since you could not stop them either to invade your country (but that is another subject, the ability of Poland to be invaded by practically by anyone), we have less up here. :D. And yet, we just voted a black woman to be our national beauty, almost twenty years ago. 😀
So I guess that overwhelming majority of finns who wanted a black woman as Miss Finland did just what you said: they voted for their beauty standard and that happened to be a black woman.:D
“(I asked) “and where I did say that there are no racists in Finland?”
Here, when you were talking about the beauty queen: “I’m sorry that she is a finn, considered by ALL finns as a finn”. So, are all Finns acceptant of her, or are some Finns racist? You can’t have both. Let me guess: the country isn’t racist except for a few bad apples?
I love how easily you dismissed the unfavorable opinions about your country voiced by people of color. I bet they are exaggerated, right?”.
I say nothing about racists in Finland there. Finns do accept her as a finn, beucause she is. She was born here, she has lived all her life here, she has her grandparents here, cousins here etc. Yes, I know, it is a hard pill to swallow for a polish racist, but that is the way it is. That black woman is a really a finn by all standards. Not yours of course, since you are a racist, but by the standards of most of us white finns. 😀
Now before you again start to drool, let me explain to you this racism thing since you seem to be a bit confused: racists belive that blacks for example are lower beings, not so important as their own race, just like you do. You get it? BUT racist can know, just like KKK in USA knows, that the blacks are locals. See? So there are racists in Finland who do not like Lola because she is black BUT they still consider her a finn. Do you understand?
A Xenophobic person, like many of the poles are, like yourself, hate foreigners. Like polish people do not like russians, right? But they do not hate russian because they are white, but because what they did in your country, right? So there is xenophobia, hatred of foreigners. That is not the same as racism.
Now, you seem to confuse these too. “So, are all Finns acceptant of her, or are some Finns racist? You can’t have both.” Yes you can. I have never met a single finnish person who thinks that Lola Odusoga is a foreigner because she is not. She is a finn. But I have met finns who do not like her because she is a black finn. You understand? No?
Okay, lets say germans hate the poles because they are “untermenchsen”, lower race. Now that is racist AND xenophibic. If the germans hated poles just because they are foreigners, that would be xenophobic. If the germans would hate you just because you are “untermenschen”, that would be racist. Ok?
Actually, the germans thoughed that way when they occupied Poland in 1939. They believed that you were both foreigners AND subhuman race. That is why they belived that they could do anything they want in Poland. And did too. They were BOTH xenophobic and racist towards the polish people. You understand?
“Whites prefer other whites. They are not exclusively attracted to whites. Can you see the difference?”
Not really. Well you just said to me that I can not have it both ways. And now you can? White prefer whites but are not exclusively attracted to whites? Say what? First you say that whites like whites and then you say they might like not whites too? I think you have some work to do in your racism :D.
If you want to be a racist, get you thinking straight: whites like whites and thats it. No ehhmmm, mmm, hmmm…
“Whites prefer other white”. And this belief of yours is based on what? Your gut feeling? Your own ideas? Racist Poland? Ok, you may belive in it.
Go visit any African tourist destination or any Caribbean holiday island. It will be real shocker for you :D. Yeap, white women and men are going at it with pitch black guys ja gals :D. Yes, they have sex, sex, sex, all night long. Ain’t that a bitch? 😀
But maybe they so drunk that they think that jamaican ebony queen is a blond blue eyed pole from Gdansk? Maybe those white european women are so disgusted by those black gigolos and guys that they have hate sex with them all the time? Maybe so, but I doubt 😀
LikeLike
Kenya Moore looks half white
It seems to me if BM are marrying WW, then BW and WM are the losers here
If I am an ti ” anti semite” well, so what. If I am a racist, so what?
I am neither but I reserve the right to be so
LikeLike
“All we can do to combat stereotypical or racist images, whether they be implicit or explicit, is to produce our own media. Unfortunately that doesn’t even always work in our favor(Tyler Perry!)”
yeah, so far most of the media (mainstream at least) that is produced by black Americans is loaded with stereotypes. Not all but most. This not only creates more problems for blacks by reinforcing stereotypes generally it gives whites an excuse to stereotype blacks as well. It makes stereotypes seem more believable and harmless when promoted by blacks themselves. It sucks to see people become agents of their own oppression
“I didn’t understand why every other female (warrior, sorceress, priestess, etc.) was portrayed with some semblance of sexuality and sensuality, but Grace Jones was just an androgynous Amazon with no other special talents whatsoever.”
That really sums it up I think. Black women are usually portrayed in 1 of 2 ways.
1. totally asexual props or tokens
2. only sexual objects with no other characteristics or personality.
Either portrayal leaves you with a completely one dimensional character devoid of depth. They can never be more than one thing for one reason. And that thing must always be in line with some stereotype or another.
LikeLike
@amband
“Kenya Moore looks half white”
-usagi
“But racism does still exist and racists will only see what they want to see. If you put an attractive black woman in foward of them, they’ll come up with some “she’s mixed or she must not be really “black” bs. ”
I was going to co-sign this statement earlier. I see it ALLL the time. Idk how a dark skin, wide nostril, full lip, hips thighs & ass having girl can look half white to somebody. Lol he didn’t even bother to say, “I find her attractive, BUT…” LOL
LikeLike
@amband
What does Kenya looking half white mean? How so? Does Wendy Williams look half white to you?
Oh and I don’t think white guys loose bc theirs prolly a higher rate of them w/ Asian women than Black guys are with WW. And I have already covered the 87% being a overwhelming majority. Blk guys are with Blk girls. Blk girls just aren’t with white boys. Gosh some people will twist statistics to fit whatever sick narrative they have in their head!
Eighty-seven percent of Black men married to a BW in 2008 and we all sumhow dying for a WW. I go to a university w/ every single race & I can tell you I DO NOT believe in the White beauty myth. I hate to talk about a woman’s features like this, but I don’t like thin lips, pale skin, or boyish figures! Their are no doubt beautiful white women(Adrianna Lima, Megan Fox), but your avg white chick is not anything special to me.
That being said I do not rant and rave about how unattractive ur plain white chick is to me. I kno pretty white girls exist and if I see one I don’t have to go out of my to de-whitify her. That just shows that you have a problem being attracted to a certain race and not that you are incapable of fancying them.
LikeLike
@ The Cynic,
GREAT POINTS!
LikeLike
@ The Cynic:
Co-sign.
LikeLike
@jasonburns
“yeah, so far most of the media (mainstream at least) that is produced by black Americans is loaded with stereotypes. Not all but most.”
MOST of the media produced by Blacks ARE NOT stereotypical. Or rather, not all stereotypes are exactly bad if done in the right way.
For example, Chris Rock’s show “Everybody Hates Chris” had several stereotypes. Poor black family living in the ghetto on welfare. However, the television series was quite hilarious, witty, and satirical. For this reason it doesn’t offend.
Not all stereotypes are exactly negative either. We can say that the characters on shows like, “A Different World” or “Living Single” were stereotypical, but were they filled with bad stereotypes?
Most white Americans would prolly say that Will Smith in “The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air” fits what they see as “acting Black,” but if you went on to ask if his character gives them a bad impression of black ppl, most would say no.
My biggest problem with TP is that his work sucks. My second biggest problem is that it is filled with a PLETHORA of NEGATIVE stereotypes(not gonna waste time listing them).
LikeLike
Cynic, But she is half white. She certainly seems very attractive, but that isn’t the point is it?
She’s as much white as black. Cynic. How do you know I am incapable of fancying them. even if I was, is that a PC criminal offence?
quote
” I kno pretty white girls exist and if I see one I don’t have to go out of my to de-whitify her.”
What stupid statement is this about? If it is related to my saying the woman is half white, that is only because people are saying she’s black! They always say someone is black if they are mixed race.
She ain’t black and what were they thinking naming her “Kenya” LOL Is that to remind us she is black. Take her to Kenya and the natives will refer to her as someone who is not like them. She is a half caste
Who is Wendy Williams?
Sam you are wrong about the Germans in Poland
LikeLike
Amband said:
‘But she is half white.”
How do you know that Kenya Moore is half-white? I never heard this before.
LikeLike
Lol I’m still dying at amband’s comment. Kenya is darker than my whole family combined and she looks biracial to him. Lol
@Abagond
I think you should add that one to the glossary. I see it enough on the internet.
She looks mixed-No need to bother pulling out an adjective that signifies beauty. Claiming half of a Black womens ancestry is non-African is your white racist way of saying, “Oh my, what a gorgeous Black woman!”
Ethiopians aren’t Black and she has Indian/European/Caucasian features are all sister phrases.
LikeLike
What do you mean Abagond, haven’t you heard? Any Black woman with light eyes immediately becomes 1/2 White.
LikeLike
I just checked meagan Good out. Yes she is very attractive. Seeing her with the black bloke made me think about the BM, when with a BW, always like BW with lighter skin
than themselves
In Africa, it is custom for various tribes for the females to lighten the skin to be more attractive to the male
So it appears there is an ingrained natural preference for BMs to light BW with lighter skin than themselves and being in the US for about 3 hundred years has not changed that
LikeLike
Oh come on Armband, even you can’t believe that.
“Seeing her with the black bloke made me think about the BM, when with a BW, always like BW with lighter skin
than themselves.”
What an insane generalization.
LikeLike
Ethiopeans are black, they are not Negroid
I can only go on the photo I saw, she has white features. If she has Ethiopean blood she would be black, and I mean black
quote in part Abagond
” Claiming half of a Black womens ancestry is non-African is your white racist way of saying, “Oh my, what a gorgeous Black woman!”
No, I never referred to her as black. It is the PC brigade in the US that would call her black, the same as they call the half caste B Obama black. Neither are black, they are mixed race
LikeLike
quote King
” What an insane generalization.”
No, it’s an observation that I have noticed and many people have commented on this. Look around you in America, look at the music vids. Look at high profile black couples and the man is generally darker than the woman, who is a light skinned girl, or lighter than him anyway
LikeLike
@Amband
Which one of this “dark skinned” biracial’s parents is white?
LikeLike
Abagond says
‘But she is half white.”
How do you know that Kenya Moore is half-white? I never heard this before.
Well, she is not full blood negress, and she isn’t Ethiopian either
LikeLike
Cynic I have no idea. May i suggest you google her and find out
LikeLike
@ Armband
Why stop with Light when you can go with White? You might as well also throw in the Black athletes who marry White women and have White girlfriends. Same reasoning?
LikeLike
Lmao Okay Amband. I have no idea what these white features she has are. I already stated what she looks like to me. Right know you have me doubting my Blackness bc if she is half white based solely on looks than I guess I must be a Quadroon. I’m not sure if the man with the camera is her father, but it is cleary the woman freaking out at 2:40 and 4:40 is her Black mother.
Miss USA 1993- Farewell Walk & Crowning Moment
LikeLike
Could be, King, that may well be the case. We know there are white ladies who love athletic BMs, and I suspect as far as the BM is concerned, the lighter the better. I am not saying that as gospel, but it may be the truth of it
LikeLike
Cynic, it turns out Kenya is mixed race. One of her parents was/is native American. They did not say which parent was
I suspect the father was black as she was raised by her grandmother, so it may be a case of the BM famously not attending to his duties as a father and running off
LikeLike
@My last comment
Omg I kno I didn’t make all of those typos. There is a grammatical conspiracy against me! I swear it!!
LikeLike
Amband said:
“Cynic I have no idea. May i suggest you google her and find out”
You do not make a wild claim and then have other people do your research for you. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Otherwise you are just full of hot air.
LikeLike
@ Amband:
I am still waiting for you to tell me how you know she is half-white.
LikeLike
Cynic, I’m not trying to prove anything. You re more interested in the anticedents ” Black barbie ” than I am
“Balck barbie ” and that lovely straight hair. Should tell you something
LikeLike
Abagod. Did I say she was half white of mixed race. If i said half white, I’m wrong. She is half Native American
LikeLike
correction
Abagond ( not Cynic ) said
“You do not make a wild claim and then have other people do your research for you. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Otherwise you are just full of hot air.”
You have my reply above
LikeLike
@Amband
Your wrong. She does not have a Native parent. Wiki does claim one of her parents has Native ancestors from way back when. I already provided a link of the video of her BLACK mom that has Amerindian fam. That does not make her biracial in the American sense of the word. Americans that don’t even follow ODR wouldn’t even call her non-blk. Many Black Americans are part WHITE. You know, the race you implied made her looks better earlier.
But I’m not gonna argue anymore about her race. You already have called her, in your own little special way, what she is. A beautiful Black woman.
LikeLike
Amband said:
“Cynic, I’m not trying to prove anything. You re more interested in the anticedents ” Black barbie ” than I am”
Wrong. You are the one who made the claim about her antecedents, not us. So the burden of proof rightly falls on you.
LikeLike
quote Cynic
” You know, the race you implied made her looks better earlier.”
Don’t you verbal me, ol chap. I never inferred she looks better of worse than another gal in my eyes
She is not black. She is part black
“Bi racial in the American sense” LOL!
Quit while yer behind
LikeLike
@amband
Most Black Americans are part Black. She is considered Black in America bc the majority of her ancestry is of Afro-descent
You can consider her whatever u want dude. Just know that when you call her hot you’re sayin you are attracted to her dark skin, wide nostrils, full lips, wide hips, thick thighs, & big ass.
LikeLike
Amband is clearly a troll, or at least a time-wasting fool:
First, Amband said:
” Cynic, But she is half white. She certainly seems very attractive, but that isn’t the point is it?
She’s as much white as black. Cynic. How do you know I am incapable of fancying them. even if I was, is that a PC criminal offence?”
But then later he said:
“Abagod. Did I say she was half white of mixed race. If i said half white, I’m wrong. She is half Native American”
and just now to the Cynic:
” Don’t you verbal me, ol chap. I never inferred she looks better of worse than another gal in my eyes”
So first he says she is half-white, several times, but then acts like he never said it. He also said she “seems very attractive” but then says he never claimed that she “looks better of worse than another gal in my eyes”.
LikeLike
Abegond. Your point is?
LikeLike
That you are a troll or at least a time-wasting fool.
LikeLike
Abegond. When I said i was wrong, I acknowledged a mistake on my part about her being part white.
She is however of mixed race being Black ( black in US definition, and Native American
Don’t you verbal me either, Abegond. It’s not becoming of a lady
LikeLike
No Abegond. I am engaging in debate. I am putting forward opinions as well as facts
LikeLike
Abegond?
This troll is pointless…
Loved the debate, but I’m done with this post now. Can’t wait to see what you’ve got up your sleeve next Abagond.
Peace
LikeLike
Amband is banned as the sock puppet of Alan B’Stard M P., who I formerly banned.
LikeLike
@amband:
“Sam you are wrong about the Germans in Poland.”
Really? In what sense? Herr Hitler and his master race thoughed that polish people like all slavic people were under humans, under race, untermenschen. Sub humans. And that is an absolute fact.
And your point of black woman being Half-something is about… What? 😀
If a womans parents are black, she is black, no matter how much you desire her in secret. Just like in the name of a song, Black is Black.
“she is not full blood negress, and she isn’t Ethiopian either.”
Ööh, who has claimed that she “ethiopian”? And how do you see ethiopians as not “negres”?? You do know that they are black and live in Africa?
I mean, have you been there or have you just read from somewhere that they are not black africans? Because I have been in Addis Abeba and let me tell you, it is not really a White City with white people.
Just like my fellow commentators said above, practically all american blacks have white in them. And more so, there is no pure “negresses” or “ethiopians” or “caucasians” or what ever.
LikeLike
@ abagond: somehow I felt that this guy is not kosher 😀
LikeLike
All, I got say people making way too much stew from one oyster
LikeLike
@ the Cynic
What would you say about the movie “Friday” ?
I think it’s a great movie that was funny and made well. I also think it was loaded with negative stereotypes. So I guess my point is that a film or show could be of high quality or low quality but that doesn’t really effect whether or not it represents people in a stereotypical way.
LikeLike
@jas0nburns
Yes, “Friday” was a great movie that was filled with negative stereotypes. Personally I cannot say stereotypes always offend me. Some of them are there for a reason. I just don’t like to see them consistently, as if black people are sum monolithic group. I also don’t like to see stereotypes that simply aren’t true tempting prejudice folks confirmation biases.
LikeLike
Weird, isn’t it, how usually when white men find themselves attracted to a Black woman, they tend to look for roots that aren’t Black before acknowledging an attraction?
Its almost as if Black women of the darker variety are a kind of beauty kriptonite capable of laying to waste the ‘Great White Beauty’ myth in much the same way comic-book stuff nullifies the all-powerful ‘Superman’.
The darker, negroid-featured female beauty is, I think, greatly feared by heterosexual white men and women alike, and I think the reasons are obvious!
And racism aint one of em!
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
“Friday”/”Next Friday” fit into the stoner comedy genre, which doesn’t usually feature Black leads. They were successful with Black Americans as a comedy, and with non-Blacks as stoner movies.
LikeLike
@ Cynic
yeah, I suppose that is part of what makes stereotypes tricky. It seems like there is a lot of variance in how seriously people take them. And there is no hard line on what does and doesn’t constitute offensive. And of course it seems to make a big difference who is behind the product. Ice cube is probably going to get away with some things that Ben Stiller couldn’t in terms of stereotyping non-whites. This gray area is where you get a lot of whites complaining about the unfairness of it all and it’s probably a big part of why whites don’t take it very seriously. Perceived double standards.
LikeLike
@The Cynic
“I still don’t get why it is so important for white audiences to see White faces all the time tho. I’m black and I have no problem seeing whites in movies/media. In fact, a lot of my favorite books, films, and television shows are filled with white folks.”
Do you have the choice to watch a similar quality tv show or movie with a majority black cast?
Imagine two generic romantic comedies. They are exactly identical except for the cast. One has Gabrielle Union and a majority black cast and the other has Jennifer Aniston and a white cast. Which one would become the bigger commercial success? I think we will agree here – the Aniston flick. Why? In my opinion, not because white people don’t want to see Union, but because they prefer Aniston. White people usually have that choice allowing them to pick the movie with a white cast or the one that shows the world from a white perspective. The only successful “black” films I can think of that don’t have white equivalents are the ones that show black characters as racial stereotypes (“Friday”) or miserable, broken victims (“Precious”, “For Colored Girls”, that sort of stuff). White people apparently don’t enjoy watching whites in these kinds of situations. How surprising, right?
I keep using the word “them” when talking about white people because I mean Americans. These days they decide what becomes mainstream and popular culture. I do think that us white Europeans have a similar mindset and we can relate to them.
“1)Consistently seeing black ppl as negative stereotypes.
(..)
2)Knowing that talented non-white actors and actresses are being passed up for non-race specific roles just bc they are non-white.”
I agree and I notice those things too. I think they are consequences of the fact that the mainstream audience (mostly whites) prefers whites. Filmmakers know that white actors and actresses are most likely to appeal to the mainstream audience, make the movie popular and earn money. From the perspective of filmmakers hiring a person of color is a bigger gamble than hiring a white person. Ultimately money talks.
@Sam
“Yeah, I am seriously claiming that majority of people are not racists.”
You are delusional. I brought up (again!!) those opinions about Finland’s racism voiced by people of color. You simply dismissed them, again!! I ensure you, those people know more about Finland’s racism than you do. The fact that you can’t see that you are being racist by ignoring those opinions and belittling their importance is really priceless. Only by understanding the situations people of color face, only through empathy you can begin to see racism in your country and everywhere else.
You should read this:
somehow I sense you will not notice many analogies between Finland and the US…
When I said my country is racist I didn’t mean “openly racist”. That’s socially unacceptable here too. When a public figure is openly racist every mainstream media outlet puts him/her on blast and criticizes the person’s actions. We are racist in a color-blind way. We say that color doesn’t matter, that only fringe loons are racist, but we do have stereotypes about other groups of people, we do often judge a person by the group he/she belongs to.
Sometimes I think of groups and not individuals too. I know it’s wrong and I usually correct myself, but occasionally I do think in stereotypes. That’s undeniable.
Thus I am racist too.
It’s really charming that you consider yourself so open-minded and unprejudiced yet you are judging me not by my actions and my own words, but based on the stereotypes and preconceptions you have about my country. You cannot see the irony, can you?
I believe virtually all of Europe is racist. In different ways, to different degrees, but practically everyone thinks in stereotypes every once in a while. I lived in Italy, Serbia, Germany and Austria. I can’t say I know these countries very well, but none of them looked like a racism-free utopia to me. I do believe that being an immigrant helped me notice racism.
“Not really. Well you just said to me that I can not have it both ways. And now you can? White prefer whites but are not exclusively attracted to whites? Say what? First you say that whites like whites and then you say they might like not whites too?”
Logic 101…
John prefers Pepsi. That doesn’t mean he hates and never drinks Sprite and Fanta. It only means he likes Pepsi more than some other drinks. It’s his preference, not the only thing he ever drinks.
Most white people prefer white beauty. Do you now understand what that means?
If you want to write another comment and tell me one more time what a close minded idiot you believe I am, and how backward, horrible and pathetic you think my country is, you can do that. I’m not going to reply to you anymore. It’s just a waste of my time.
LikeLike
I don’t get why some white people make dumb claims of double standards. I here many say, “Oh well if I white person had done this” Ummm… no. South Park, Family Guy, Chelsea Handler, Tosh 2.0, Sarah Silverman, Lisa Lampanelli, and a whole slew of comedians/shows make Black jokes ALLL of the time. This perception of double standards is pure bullsh*t. It sounds more like selective hearing to me.
People can whine about someone like Dr, Laura Schlessinger losing her job bc she wasn’t being “PC,” but at the of the end of the day she still got a new job! I swear only retards don’t know the difference between blatantly offensive and what is acceptable. And I have zero tolerance for socially retarded assholes
LikeLike
Hello Charles Menelik
I was just about to send uncle mu a email asking if he’s seen you. I hope all has been well during your time away.
LikeLike
@ chic noir,
I’m absolutely fine, thank you, as I hope you are too.
LikeLike
Yes sir all is well on my end thank you.
*chic noir gives charles a sweet hug*
LikeLike
@ The Cynic:
It was “Silverman” that was sending your comments to the spam filter. I used to have a troll whose last name was that.
LikeLike
@eco: “You are delusional. I brought up (again!!) those opinions about Finland’s racism voiced by people of color. You simply dismissed them, again!! I ensure you, those people know more about Finland’s racism than you do. The fact that you can’t see that you are being racist by ignoring those opinions and belittling their importance is really priceless. Only by understanding the situations people of color face, only through empathy you can begin to see racism in your country and everywhere else.”
Once again, I have never said that there are no racists in Finland. There are. But when you make a claims that most whites or europeans are racists, you should have something to back it up. Just “I belive” is not going to cut it. I say most of the people do not care, one way or the other. I think xenophobia is much bigger problem than racism today in my country, but there are racists here too. Xenophobia is big problem in many countries and it includes the racist xenophobiacs too.
“Most white people prefer white beauty. Do you now understand what that means?”
Yes, I understand what you try to say, but it is not that simple. That is why I brought up Lola. She is a black woman who was seen by the overwhelming majority as the most beautiful woman in Finland. Despite the fact that she is a black woman and absolute majority of people in Finland are white. How the heck she was and is so popular if majority of whites prefer white?
“The fact that you can’t see that you are being racist by ignoring those opinions and belittling their importance is really priceless.”
Well, now you are telling me that I am a racist? 😀 And you know this because I did not take up your bait? 😀 It would take a bit long to tell my life story here but some others here know where I come from and what I have experienced in my life. I have previously told some anecdotes from my life which could clear my stand on these issues for you.
I used to be a kid like you, believing a bit like that, but as I grew up and traveled the world, I kind of went trough a metamorphosis mentally. I learned the we all are the same, regardless of our skin color. You should try that too. I think I have stated my opinions pretty clearly here and I would think that I am not a racist nor ignoramus who does not know what we are talking about here. 😀
“Only by understanding the situations people of color face, only through empathy you can begin to see racism in your country and everywhere else.”
Hmmm, I understand what you are saying but the term “people of color face” is a bit stretch and, may I ad, racist too :D.
I think that trough personal experiences you get even better understanding of racism that just playing sympathetic. Like I’ve told before, I have looked the guns of authorities from the wrong end just because of race profiling by accident. That kind of situations clear ones mind pretty quickly. In one situation I was really thoughed to be wrong race untill my identity was revealed, but till then I got the whole works.
Also, when you are the lone white face among black crowd in the “darkest” of Africa, you begun to see how this race thing works. BUT you also learn that when you or somebody else is in trouble, your skin color does not mean a thing. If you can help, nobody will say they do not take your help because you are a white guy. And in most cases people will help you, even if you are the lone dummy white guy in totally wrong place. And mind you, these helpers are not from Red Cross or anyhting like that. They are ordinary people who see you as a humanbeing, not a WHITE man.
“It’s really charming that you consider yourself so open-minded and unprejudiced yet you are judging me not by my actions and my own words, but based on the stereotypes and preconceptions you have about my country. You cannot see the irony, can you?”
😀 I am glad that you did see the irony. You see, that was the intention. You seem to have all these stereotypes and clishés about europeans and “people of color face”, so I thoughed that if I really lay it thick, you might notice something. And you have. Now, read your won texts again with my “stereotypes and preconceptions” in mind. You notice anything? 😀
LikeLike
@ the cynic
I agree that it’s stupid but I think that just comes as a consequence of the low race IQ whites seem to have by default. The double standard fallacy seems pretty widespread from my vantage point.
speaking of Daniel Tosh I had been refraining from watching his show (despite the fact that it’s one of a small handful of shows I can stand) because of his racist jokes. But then on his recent stand up special he called out the founding fathers racism by stating that the country was in fact founded by racists on racist principles. I’ve never heard any famous WP say anything like that in a public forum.
LikeLike
The Cynic says:
“I hate to talk about a woman’s features like this, but I don’t like thin lips, pale skin, or boyish figures! Their are no doubt beautiful white women(Adrianna Lima, Megan Fox), but your avg white chick is not anything special to me.”
Don’t be ridiculous. Neither Adriana Lima nor Megan Fox are white.
They are mixed race.
They always say someone is white if they are mixed race.
Adriana is part African and Native American and Megan Fox is as Native American as she is white.
That makes them part white, not white.
Take Adriana to England and the natives will refer to her as someone who is not like them. She is a half caste.
While we’re at: Angelina Jolie, Jessica Biel, Heather Locklear, Natalie Portman (Jewish… you know they’re not Caucasoid) are not white either, they’re mixed.
😉
LikeLike
@Sam
“Once again, I have never said that there are no racists in Finland.”
Well, you did say that. Unfortunately you are not smart enough to understand the discussion you took part in.
I wrote that Europeans tend to view black people as perpetual foreigners. That means that no matter what, blacks are never fully accepted by a large part of whites and always viewed as outsiders and never as one of their own. Like Mario Balotelli – he legally is Italian, but a lot of whites will never see him as a true Italian. That is what being a perpetual foreigner is.
When I said that European whites tend to view blacks as perpetual foreigners you brought up the beauty queen and wrote “I’m sorry that she is a finn, considered by all finns as a finn”.
Again, logic 101. Pay attention. You might learn something:
If every Finn considers her a Finn then no one believes she is a perpetual foreigner.
If no one believes she is a perpetual foreigner then there are no racists in Finland.
By definition, being a citizen doesn’t help perpetual foreigners. It doesn’t matter how long they have lived in the country or how many generations ago their family had immigrated to the country. Some people will never see them as their own kind.
“There are. But when you make a claims that most whites or europeans are racists, you should have something to back it up.”
The prevalence of racism isn’t something that can be proven in absolute terms, because racism isn’t objectively measurable. So I’ll just explain the reasoning behind my claims.
I’ll use this definition of racism:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/racism
Based on the definition the statement “believing in a negative racial stereotype” implies “being racist”.
Since all racial stereotypes are fundamentally dehumanizing thus there are no positive racial stereotypes.
Since countless racial stereotypes have reached every corner of the US and Europe, and believing subconsciously in just one is enough to be considered a racist then I think it’s reasonable to claim that most Americans and Europeans are racist. Maybe even almost all are.
“She is a black woman who was seen by the overwhelming majority as the most beautiful woman in Finland. Despite the fact that she is a black woman and absolute majority of people in Finland are white. How the heck she was and is so popular if majority of whites prefer white?”
I already answered this question in earlier comments. Trends determine preference, not single occurrences. You are focusing on an irrelevant, rare instance instead of looking for trends.
What color were the girls who won in other years? What color were the girls in the final stages of the contests? Were they black too? Not really, huh?
The fact that every once in a while, under certain conditions you choose black doesn’t change the fact that you usually prefer white.
Sometimes Vogue puts a black girl on the cover too. That doesn’t mean that they generally celebrate black or diverse beauty.
“Well, now you are telling me that I am a racist? And you know this because I did not take up your bait?”
That wasn’t bait. At that point of the discussion you claimed that all Finns are acceptant of the beauty queen thus implying that there are no racists in Finland. I used those opinions voiced by people of color to show that’s not true.
I’m not claiming you are generally racist – like neo-nazis or the KKK, but it seems you have done something racist. If you believe that people of color who claim they suffered from racism in Finland don’t know what they are talking about then you are belittling these people. You can dismiss opinions when you believe you know more about the issue than the people voicing them. Even if you are a person of color yourself, you can’t possibly be all of their ethnicities at the same time and claim that you understand their situations better than every single one of them can.
“I understand what you are saying but the term “people of color face” is a bit stretch and, may I ad, racist too”
The word “face” doesn’t just mean that thing with eyes on the front of your thick skull. It can also be a verb. When I wrote “situations people of color face” it meant “situations people of color deal with”.
“I am glad that you did see the irony. You see, that was the intention. You seem to have all these stereotypes and clishés about europeans and “people of color face”, so I thoughed that if I really lay it thick, you might notice something. And you have. Now, read your won texts again with my “stereotypes and preconceptions” in mind. You notice anything?”
You cannot understand basic logic. You struggle to comprehend the meaning of words as banal as “preference”. Your idea of having a discussion apparently involves throwing random insults at each other and distorting your opponent’s opinions. You really thought insulting someone is a fine way to make them agree with you?! Stop thinking. You are not good at it.
I am dying to hear what are those stereotypes and cliches I have that are so insulting that they justified your offensive remarks about me.
LikeLike
Have you ever lived in France, England or the Netherlands? Let me make a plausible guess, you haven’t.
LikeLike
To understand Europe, one must understand the importance of ethnicity vs race, especially in some parts of the continent (mine, for example :P).
So a black person might not be accepted, but not because she’s black, but because she’s not (enter ethnicity here). Racism only adds to this hate, but unlike the US, being white is not enough to be accepted in Europe, if your ethnicity is not the “right” one.
LikeLike
@Natasha W,
Rubbish. In American parlance, all the Women you mentioned are indeed White, this is how they are seen and how they self-identify.
As for the topic itself, I find the incessant pity-partying whining on the part of Sistas on this issue to be off-putting, if not boring. The simple truth of the matter is that while Black Women in the USA have historically been sought out as sexual partners (sometimes consensual, other times not, by White Men in the main for purposes of this discussion), they have not and aren’t likely to be viewed by America as the standard of beauty. Why can’t they just get over it and get on with the business of living life already?
The flick with Grace Jones in it, was a flop as a recall, and not because of Jones, it was because it was a whacked flick to begin with. Conan the original was pretty good and much more in line with the actual comics.
Black Women have little to complain about, not when a Black Woman in particular, Oprah Winfrey, has enjoyed a lifelong career in media and now owns her own network, and when someone like Tyler Perry can literally make a fortune of of catering to the needs and interests of Black Women solely. In a sane world, these would be seen as real achievements; as it is, no good deed goes unpunished…
I mean really, isn’t there anything better to discuss?
Holla back
O.
LikeLike
@eco:
“If every Finn considers her a Finn then no one believes she is a perpetual foreigner.
If no one believes she is a perpetual foreigner then there are no racists in Finland.”
It seems that we have misunerdstanding here: xenophobia is not always racism, and racism is not always xenophobia. You understand? In USA the KKK and other nuts know that Obama is american, but they do not like him because he is black. Get it?
The fact that Lola Odusoga was chosen by overwhelming majority as our Miss Finland proves you wrong. Most of white finns liked her looks. We thoughed that she was beautiful. And, once again, nobody thinks she is a foreigner. Even those who did not like her because of her looks, so called “race”. Being black has nothing to do with being foreigner, except maybe in Poland. 😀
“I’m not claiming you are generally racist – like neo-nazis or the KKK, but it seems you have done something racist. If you believe that people of color who claim they suffered from racism in Finland don’t know what they are talking about then you are belittling these people. You can dismiss opinions when you believe you know more about the issue than the people voicing them. Even if you are a person of color yourself, you can’t possibly be all of their ethnicities at the same time and claim that you understand their situations better than every single one of them can.”
Once again, where did I say that there are no racists in Finland? Where did I say I do not believe that those people are not telling the truth? Nowhere. You are putting words in my mouth, but I guess that is your only option here.
See, I know black people who live in Finland. Actually I know a lot of immigrants and minority finns including, you know, finns who are black but really are finns 😀 There are those for real! I know it seems tuff to digest but there are black finns too :D. I know what they go trough every day. So do not put words in my mouth, thanks. 😀
Also, you say that I have done something racist. Could you tell me what I did which is racist? I bet anybody here has little problems to see my racist actions, which you, being a self proclaimed racist, can see. So tell me where I did something racist :D.
“The word “face” doesn’t just mean that thing with eyes on the front of your thick skull. It can also be a verb. When I wrote “situations people of color face” it meant “situations people of color deal with”.”
Aha. You ever heard Minstrel shows? Next time you use a term like “people of color face” you could think what words you could use instead :D.
Now, in order to continue our conversation I suggest that you go back to school, not litterally but you know, go back to learn, and find out what a word “racist” and word “xenophobia” mean.
And just to get back to your original arguments: prove me that most of the whites in Europe, or like you say, most of anybody in the world, are racists. Can you do it? I have very serious doubt.
See, that kind of talk is very typical for racists. They make claims like ” whites prefer whites”, “everyone is a racist”, “all the countries are racists”, “racism is everywhere”, “you are racist too even if you deny it” etc. The reason is that this way they, or you in this case, can tell themselves that even though I am a racist I am ok because it is natural and all over the place. You understand?
If you claim that we are all racist, as you do, you should be able to prove it. Which you can’t. And since you can not prove your claim, it is BS. You can BELIEVE so but it does not make it so. That is my take on your personal problem, racism.
LikeLike
@femi: I was thinkin about that too 😀
LikeLike
“So a black person might not be accepted, but not because she’s black, but because she’s not (enter ethnicity here). Racism only adds to this hate, but unlike the US, being white is not enough to be accepted in Europe, if your ethnicity is not the “right” one.”
Co-signed. For example, I’m not welcomed among some blacks, despite being at least 75% of black. Cultural differences and standards do affect people on a large basis. (Even sometimes over race)
“The fact that Lola Odusoga was chosen by overwhelming majority as our Miss Finland proves you wrong. Most of white finns liked her looks. We thoughed that she was beautiful. And, once again, nobody thinks she is a foreigner. Even those who did not like her because of her looks, so called “race”. Being black has nothing to do with being foreigner, except maybe in Poland.”
Why do people have a hard time believing that a black woman can be attractive to others? Racism exists and some men do have very negative opinons on black women. But I think they blow way out of proportion. Lola’s Finnish first. Me myself, never really had a problem attracting non-black men. A lot of the issues are that a lot of them think that a BW wouldn’t date outside their race. I always laugh because I have never had a black boyfriend and have no interest in that what so ever.
“How do you know that Kenya Moore is half-white? I never heard this before.
Well, she is not full blood negress, and she isn’t Ethiopian either”
She looks black to me. Hell, she looks blacker than me. Again, with East Africans isn’t black BS. Yes, we are black. Every black woman without phat butt and noses that stretch across their face isn’t “mixed” Then Polish aren’t white because they don’t look like Finnish.
LikeLike
@Abagond
LOL that’s what it was? I swear I must of tried that comment about 10 times. I kept thinking maybe it was the “R” word.
@Natasha
I didn’t know Megan Fox was half Amerindian! Wow. I knew about Adrianna, but I consider her just “white.” Haha but I guess if we want to play their game we HAVE to mention non-white ancestors no matter how far back in their family line they are! You can tell that she is mixed though, with those luscious Afro lips and thick Native hair.
@Jas0n
Yeah, that’s another thing. Racial jokes are okay with me. I just don’t like it when every other joke is about race or only one race is targeted. I don’t even think Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle stressed the racial jokes like some white comedians do.
LikeLike
@Obsidian
“Rubbish. In American parlance, all the Women you mentioned are indeed White, this is how they are seen and how they self-identify.”
I think she was being satirical. I mean just check the entire conversation with Kenya Moore earlier.
Are you sure they self-identify as White? I never seen Lima or Fox say, “I am white.” Of course I wouldn’t be surprised if I did.
I find it strange you decided to pick a fight with Natasha over their race and not Amb. Did you miss his comments, did you agree, or do you just hate Black women?
LikeLike
” don’t even think Chris Rock or Dave Chapelle stressed the racial jokes like some white comedians do.”
How you ever heard D. L. Hughley? Almost every single joke this guy does is about how white & black folks are so different. He’s kind of tiring after a while. It depends on execution. Don’t get me started on Carlos Menica.
LikeLike
“Are you sure they self-identify as White? I never seen Lima or Fox say, “I am white.” Of course I wouldn’t be surprised if I did.”
well, whites don’t really self-identify as white unless we are prompted to. If you ask a white person to “tell you about themselves” they probably will mention everything about themselves except their race. We are probably the only group that does this. So the very fact that they don’t identify as white verbally is a good indication that they actually do identify as white internally.
Also, we love to talk about our native ancestry so if there is even a dash of native in there best believe you’re going to hear about it.
LikeLike
Cynic,
LOL, I love it when people try to accuse me of “hating Black Women” instead of focusing on what I actually said. it’s usually a sign that they have lost the argument.
I would augur a guess that the Women Natasha and you were talking about, the “White” ones, would indeed self-identify first and foremost as just that, White, and I think their actions in public displays show this. I mean, are any of them known for hanging around or among Blacks? I don’t think so.
And no, I didn’t see “Amb’s” comments. Just took a quick look see through them and saw something that jumped out at me. Like I said, the whole “evrybody’s picking on me” Black Woman meme is really getting tired at this point.
Let’s try this again: Oprah Winfrey; Tyler Perry. And that’s just for starters (I could mention the writers of Grey’s Anatomy or Mad Men, or I could mention the originator of Girlfriends or The Game, and so forth).
Any questions about how Black Women are getting the shaft in media?
O.
LikeLike
“well, whites don’t really self-identify as white unless we are prompted to. If you ask a white person to “tell you about themselves” they probably will mention everything about themselves except their race. We are probably the only group that does this. So the very fact that they don’t identify as white verbally is a good indication that they actually do identify as white internally. ”
I was pretty raised with mentality. For some reason, some blacks get really pissy about it. If someone were to ask me what am I as in nationality, I would just state all of it. Why not ? I’m very into exploring different cultures and watch shows from different countries. maybe it’s because I find American culture kinda boring. I don’t see the big deal of accepting it and embracing it.If you’re African/White/Native and you relate to it, then you should just embrace it. Now, when you’re stating it every single time or using it to be better than others is the problem. Why do u black americans feel like that they’re a different species from everyone else and why do some of them put so much their being into their color? It’s hurtful in the long run to me.
LikeLike
@Obsidian
I never accused you of hating Black women. That was just one question, out of several, that I asked.
@Usagi
D.L. Hugley is not funny to me at all. I don’t know if it is the race jokes, but I just don’t like his comedy
LikeLike
@ Usagi
I think the main reason whites don’t self-identify as white is because we tend to see white as the default. The norm. Like to us saying we are white would just be like saying we have both arms and legs. Or we breath oxygen. Whiteness is seen as the natural default state of being. Anyone else is different/special/exotic.
So I actually think whites should become more conscious of ourselves as a race to be more in line with how others see themselves.
In one sense I don’t think it’s ideal for everyone to view themselves through a racial lens because race is a social construct and a negative one at that. However, whites did come up with the whole race thing and we force everyone else to live with it so the least we can do now is accept that and play by the same rules.
LikeLike
Bro Obsidian,
I’ve just sent you a PM!
LikeLike
Obsidian,
I think Natasha was being facetious, she had a lil’ winking smiley at the end of her statement.
People are always coming on this site(and others) and calling attractive black females mixed or predominately non-black. I think she was just flipping the coin to show how ridiculous it sounds to say such things
LikeLike
Weird, isn’t it, how usually when white men find themselves attracted to a Black woman, they tend to look for roots that aren’t Black before acknowledging an attraction?
Its almost as if Black women of the darker variety are a kind of beauty kriptonite capable of laying to waste the ‘Great White Beauty’ myth in much the same way comic-book stuff nullifies the all-powerful ‘Superman’.
The darker, negroid-featured female beauty is, I think, greatly feared by heterosexual white men, and I think the reasons are obvious!
I cannot imagine what it must feel like to have to deny, or repress, a portion of one’s heterosexuality just so as to deny that a woman’s obvious attractiveness based solely on the lack of melanin in her skin, can you, brothers?
Menelik Charles
London UK
LikeLike
Imagine:
white men projecting their sense of possessing a racial blemish onto Black women, and then implying, forever and a day, via their mass media that Black women don’t meet white women’s beauty standards. Well, white women (and men) consume an awful lot more tanning (skin concealers) than do Black women consume skin bleaching creams!
LikeLike
Obsidian says,
@Natasha W,
Rubbish. In American parlance, all the Women you mentioned are indeed White, this is how they are seen and how they self-identify.
As for the topic itself, I find the incessant pity-partying whining on the part of Sistas on this issue to be off-putting, if not boring. The simple truth of the matter is that while Black Women in the USA have historically been sought out as sexual partners (sometimes consensual, other times not, by White Men in the main for purposes of this discussion), they have not and aren’t likely to be viewed by America as the standard of beauty. Why can’t they just get over it and get on with the business of living life already?
The flick with Grace Jones in it, was a flop as a recall, and not because of Jones, it was because it was a whacked flick to begin with. Conan the original was pretty good and much more in line with the actual comics.
Black Women have little to complain about, not when a Black Woman in particular, Oprah Winfrey, has enjoyed a lifelong career in media and now owns her own network, and when someone like Tyler Perry can literally make a fortune of of catering to the needs and interests of Black Women solely. In a sane world, these would be seen as real achievements; as it is, no good deed goes unpunished…
I mean really, isn’t there anything better
laromana says,
Hey, O when you can say that you’ve LIVED YOUR LIFE AS a BW in HISTORICALLY ANTI-BW HATING America, THEN you can LECTURE us about “incessant pity-partying whining on the part of Sistas ” or about “why BW can’t just get over it and get on with the business of living life already”.
If it wasn’t for DISMISSIVE, IGNORANT, ANTI-BW HATING A–H— BM like you who CONSTANTLY CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW HATE, instead of DEFENDING the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW (TO WHOM YOU OWE YOUR LIFE & ALL DUE RESPECT), America would be much closer to DESTROYING ANTI-BW HATE by now.
You really need to get over yourself with your PATRONIZING, ANTI-BW BS. Oprah Winfrey’s success (or ANY other BW’S success) in NO WAY NULLIFIES the REALITY of ANTI-BW HATE in American culture/media.
If you don’t want to be accused of being an ANTI-BW HATER, STOP TALKING/ACTING like one.
LikeLike
@Femi:
“Have you ever lived in France, England or the Netherlands? Let me make a plausible guess, you haven’t.”
I seriously doubt that these countries are colorblind to the point that their white citizens would lose the idea that natives are white. If you asked the white French, English and Dutch to describe how a person native to their country looks like they would have struggled do pick features that vary within the white race (hair and eye color, nose shape height, etc.), but the image in their head would have been a white person.
This mindset, that some people aren’t really native is clearly visible in England. Even their mainstream press uses oxymoron phrases like “second generation immigrant”. Apparently being born and raised in Britain isn’t enough to be truly British. To be considered a real Brit by all white Brits you need to have the right ethnicity. Skin color only makes ones ethnic roots obvious.
@Mira
“To understand Europe, one must understand the importance of ethnicity vs race, especially in some parts of the continent (mine, for example ).
So a black person might not be accepted, but not because she’s black, but because she’s not (enter ethnicity here). Racism only adds to this hate, but unlike the US, being white is not enough to be accepted in Europe, if your ethnicity is not the “right” one.”
True, being white isn’t always enough, but it usually helps you blend in.
@Sam
When you stopped hurling insults at me I gave you one more chance. I thought that you may be a reasonable person after all. I was wrong.
You keep asking about things I explained multiple times. That means that you are not simply disagreeing with me, but also, that you don’t understand my reasoning and still you are rejecting and twisting virtually everything I write.
The one thing I forgot to write about in my last comment was that “racism vs xenophobia” thing.
Xenophobia is an “extreme dislike or fear of foreigners, their customs, their religions, etc.” (Cambridge dictionary).
In the case of perpetual foreigners by definition xenophobia isn’t the explanation. We are talking about people who even if they were born and raised in a country, follow it’s traditions and customs still aren’t seen as truly native. They are not foreigners, but they are seen as not truly native because of their ethnicity. This cannot be explained by xenophobia, but it can be, and usually is, by racism.
” In USA the KKK and other nuts know that Obama is american”
Tell that to the nuts in the birther movement.
“The fact that Lola Odusoga was chosen by overwhelming majority as our Miss Finland proves you wrong.”
I do not know which issue you mean. You haven’t made it clear. Perpetual foreigners or white people preferring white beauty?
If you meant the beauty preference of white people, than no it doesn’t prove me wrong. I already explained that at least three times.
It’s a rare event, not a trend thus it does not suggest what is the people’s preference.
If you meant to use that example to show that black people aren’t generally viewed as perpetual foreigners by white Europeans then you are wrong too. Seeing someone as not as good as you doesn’t necessarily mean that you hate that person and do not want to support him/her.
Seeing someone as a perpetual foreigner is a very subtle, often subconscious emotion. It does not make you automatically dislike the person you see as not fully native. It only give you a certain sense of superiority.
“Once again, where did I say that there are no racists in Finland?”
I already explained that in earlier comments. It’s a logical consequence of your statements. You implied it.
“I know it seems tuff to digest but there are black finns too ”
I’m talking about general views people seem to have, not my own personal world view. Can you understand that? Probably not…
I’m talking about racism in general, not my own racism.
“Also, you say that I have done something racist. Could you tell me what I did which is racist? I bet anybody here has little problems to see my racist actions, which you, being a self proclaimed racist, can see. So tell me where I did something racist”
I already explained that… You belittled and dismissed the opinions voiced by people of color, because they do not match your world view. Belittling them implies you consider your own opinions superior, even though you cannot objectively judge that. It shows that you though those people of color don’t know what they are talking about when they were discussing their own experiences and emotions.
“Aha. You ever heard Minstrel shows? Next time you use a term like “people of color face” you could think what words you could use instead”
Well, usually the people I’m writing to can understand simple English…
“And just to get back to your original arguments: prove me that most of the whites in Europe, or like you say, most of anybody in the world, are racists. Can you do it? I have very serious doubt. ”
I already explained this point and you haven’t showed how my explanation is flawed. You’ve simply entirely dismissed it.
“See, that kind of talk is very typical for racists.”
I’m talking about things I notice in the world around me. That doesn’t mean I approve of those things. Can you understand that? Pointing out racism doesn’t make one racist.
Yeah, I do know I called myself racist. That doesn’t mean that I’m racist in the ways you think I am. Racism can be very subtle.
LikeLike
@eco:
“I’m talking about things I notice in the world around me. That doesn’t mean I approve of those things. Can you understand that? Pointing out racism doesn’t make one racist.
Yeah, I do know I called myself racist. That doesn’t mean that I’m racist in the ways you think I am. Racism can be very subtle.”
Well, you better do something then, right? I mean, you do not have to be a racist unless you want to be. It is not a biological condition. Despite what some guys are trying to prove.
You said that the wholw world is actually racist. I asked you to prove it. You can not. So…
Yes, sometimes the langauge complicates things. Sometimes it does not.
“You belittled and dismissed the opinions voiced by people of color, because they do not match your world view. Belittling them implies you consider your own opinions superior, even though you cannot objectively judge that. It shows that you though those people of color don’t know what they are talking about when they were discussing their own experiences and emotions.”
And where I did that? In your head. Once again, do not put words in my mouth, thank you.
“I’m talking about general views people seem to have, not my own personal world view. Can you understand that? Probably not…
I’m talking about racism in general, not my own racism.”
You did said that you live in a racist country and that you are a racist yourself. So when you say those things, what ever you say after that is seen by me and many others from that viewpoint.
““Once again, where did I say that there are no racists in Finland?”
I already explained that in earlier comments. It’s a logical consequence of your statements. You implied it.”
No I did not. You said so. Do not put words in my mouth, kid. I argued against YOUR statement that most of the whites prefer white women and most of whites are racists and by telling you about our black Miss Finland showed that you were not truthful.
“I do not know which issue you mean. You haven’t made it clear. Perpetual foreigners or white people preferring white beauty?
If you meant the beauty preference of white people, than no it doesn’t prove me wrong. I already explained that at least three times.
It’s a rare event, not a trend thus it does not suggest what is the people’s preference.
If you meant to use that example to show that black people aren’t generally viewed as perpetual foreigners by white Europeans then you are wrong too. Seeing someone as not as good as you doesn’t necessarily mean that you hate that person and do not want to support him/her.
Seeing someone as a perpetual foreigner is a very subtle, often subconscious emotion. It does not make you automatically dislike the person you see as not fully native. It only give you a certain sense of superiority.”
Speak for yourself. Black Miss Finland proves that majority of white finns don’t think like you claim they think and thus, not every white european thinks like you claim they do.
“In the case of perpetual foreigners by definition xenophobia isn’t the explanation. We are talking about people who even if they were born and raised in a country, follow it’s traditions and customs still aren’t seen as truly native. They are not foreigners, but they are seen as not truly native because of their ethnicity. This cannot be explained by xenophobia, but it can be, and usually is, by racism.”
Yes, it can be explained partly by racism. But it does not mean that majority is thinking that way. You want proof? How many ducth did not consider Ruud Gullit as a fellow country man? How many britts were thinking that Frank Bruno is not a britt? How many americans are thinking that NFL stars are not americans if they are black? That NBA is populated by foreigners? Mike Tyson is a foreigner? Bill Cosby is not an american? Chris Rock is actually what, moldovan??
How many brazilians are thinking that Pelé is not a brazilian?
You catch my drift?
(at femi) “I seriously doubt that these countries are colorblind to the point that their white citizens would lose the idea that natives are white. If you asked the white French, English and Dutch to describe how a person native to their country looks like they would have struggled do pick features that vary within the white race (hair and eye color, nose shape height, etc.), but the image in their head would have been a white person.
This mindset, that some people aren’t really native is clearly visible in England. Even their mainstream press uses oxymoron phrases like “second generation immigrant”. Apparently being born and raised in Britain isn’t enough to be truly British. To be considered a real Brit by all white Brits you need to have the right ethnicity. Skin color only makes ones ethnic roots obvious.”
Man, you really need to travel more. Just travel and open your eyes. And yes, Holland might be a good place to start. I recommend Amsterdam. Then off to London you go. I recommend that you visit the fan terrace of Millwall and say it out loud that n*****s and towelheads are not real britts. 😀
LikeLike
“You said that the wholw world is actually racist. I asked you to prove it. You can not. So…”
I explained why I said that racism is prevalent. Of course, you cannot understand my explanation and behave like if I never delivered one. If you do not agree with my explanation – show how it is flawed.
“And where I did that? In your head. Once again, do not put words in my mouth, thank you.”
If you weren’t belittling and dismissing them then why didn’t you want to discuss their opinions with me? A lot of them support my claims about the prevalence of racism in Finland.
“You did said that you live in a racist country and that you are a racist yourself. So when you say those things, what ever you say after that is seen by me and many others from that viewpoint.”
Do you read this blog? Have a look at this:
and most importantly this:
When I said that I am racist that wasn’t a declaration of malicious intent. I wanted to show that I can look critically on myself and my country.
“No I did not. You said so.”
I said that European whites tend to see black people as perpetual foreigners and that they tend to have a “us and them” mentality when thinking of black people. You replied by bringing up the beauty queen and claiming that all Finns see her as a Finn. When is that possible? Only in the situation when not a single Finn has racist feelings towards her. A racist would see her as a person who isn’t really a Finn – someone who may be a citizen, but isn’t really one of “us”.
You haven’t just disagreed with my claim that European whites tend to see black people as perpetual foreigners. You made an even bolder statement – that all Finns see the beauty queen as a Finn. That means no one sees her as a perpetual foreigner.
“I argued against YOUR statement that most of the whites prefer white women and most of whites are racists and by telling you about our black Miss Finland showed that you were not truthful.”
No, you didn’t show that.
Occasional events are unimportant, trends matter.
Which race produces most of Finland’s beauty queens? Which race usually dominates the contests?
The preference is obvious and undeniable.
“You want proof?”
That’s not proof. I explained in the comment you were quoting that seeing someone as not as good as you doesn’t necessarily mean that you hate that person and do not want to support him/her.
“Man, you really need to travel more. Just travel and open your eyes. And yes, Holland might be a good place to start. I recommend Amsterdam. Then off to London you go. I recommend that you visit the fan terrace of Millwall and say it out loud that n*****s and towelheads are not real britts.”
And you need to learn English. Read what I wrote to Femi over and over until you understand who doesn’t see people of certain ethnicities as truly British. I’ll give you a hint – I wasn’t talking about myself.
LikeLike
@eco: Well, you seem to be backtracking a little but I guess you have no choice.
“I explained why I said that racism is prevalent. Of course, you cannot understand my explanation and behave like if I never delivered one. If you do not agree with my explanation – show how it is flawed.”
You said, many times, that world is racist. You said that white europeans are racists, at least the majority of them are. I showed you that they are not. You don’t like it. I have no idea why. Maybe because you, as self admitting racist, do not like to be alone in your racism. I do not know.
“If you weren’t belittling and dismissing them then why didn’t you want to discuss their opinions with me? A lot of them support my claims about the prevalence of racism in Finland.”
Well, I did not hear them say that “this Eco guy in abagonds blog is right”. I heard them tell their experiences here. They do not support you. They talk about their lives, not your brilliance.
Also, why should I talk with you about somebody elses experiences in Finland? I talk about them almost everyday. As I did today with my friend from Togo. I think that is much more useful for me and for him, than talk with a polish guy who just wants to be right.
I think your problem is that as you have woken up in the real world, you think you are the first of your kind. I think your real problem is that you think that you are the only shining example of wisdom in this subject. And that, my friend, is also very annoying, not just childish.
Yes I do follow this blog and many others. I also read a lot. Like a book a week. I also listen and talk to people. A lot. And these people are from all over the world. I recommend that for you too.
“When I said that I am racist that wasn’t a declaration of malicious intent. I wanted to show that I can look critically on myself and my country.”
Fine. But if you say that “I am a racist” others just might understand your intentions the wrong way. If you claim to be a racist, it means little bit different than being critical to oneself or ones own country.
“I said that European whites tend to see black people as perpetual foreigners and that they tend to have a “us and them” mentality when thinking of black people. You replied by bringing up the beauty queen and claiming that all Finns see her as a Finn. When is that possible? Only in the situation when not a single Finn has racist feelings towards her. A racist would see her as a person who isn’t really a Finn – someone who may be a citizen, but isn’t really one of “us”.”
Well, here you go again. You do not believe me so you dismis the reality here. Nobody, including racists in Finland, see her as a foreigner since SHE IS NOT. But, maybe because you are young or dumb or both, you can not get your head around the fact that there really are black finns, and whom even the racists think as finns.
I have no idea how many racist finns you know but I am willing to bet one million euros that I know more than you will ever know. I have not met a single one of them who does not think Lola Odusoga as a finn. Actually they think she is a fucking “turkulainen”, person who comes from Turku, a city in Finland.
So do not try to tell me how racist finns think of her or any other black finns. You just don’t know. You have your own idea about how racists think and you believe that this is truth. It is not. It is your idea, not the reality. Also, show me a single britt who thinks Frank Bruno is no a britt. You can’t. Show me a single dutch who thinks that Ruud Gullit is not dutch. You can’t. Show me a single french who thinks that Yannick Noah is not french. You can’t. So shush there a bit.
“You haven’t just disagreed with my claim that European whites tend to see black people as perpetual foreigners. You made an even bolder statement – that all Finns see the beauty queen as a Finn. That means no one sees her as a perpetual foreigner.”
Yes I did. And yes, all finns see her as a finn. That absolutely means thet no finn sees her as a perpetual foreigner. Sorry to spoil your fancy pants idea about racism and how it is. 😀
“Occasional events are unimportant, trends matter.
Which race produces most of Finland’s beauty queens? Which race usually dominates the contests?
The preference is obvious and undeniable.”
Oh, now it is the trends? You said that white europeans prefer white women. You said that they are racists. I showed you that all ready twenty years ago we chose a black woman as the most beautiful woman in Finland. You do not like that. That is why you keep shifting your arguments this and that way.
First of all, you reveal yourself by using term “race” here. See, only racist believes in races. But then again, you admitted that you are a racist. Ok. Majority of finnish beauty queens have been whites. Why? You think it is prove of racism? It is because we have so few black women competing.
If we had few, say five, black women participating every year in all kinds of beauty contests, which there are many, and not one would be a winner, then I would agree with you. But we do not. Unfortunately. Because if there was more than this exception, I could prove you wrong once more.
Lola Odusoga was the first black woman ever to participate in any beauty contest in Finland and she won right away. That proves that majority of finns are racists? No. It proves that when the first black woman entered the catwalk, finnish people were fond of her because they were thinking how beautiful she was. BUT they did not see her “race” as an obstacle. They wanted her to present Finland. And, may I add, she did just fine.
I try to improve my english by reading only english language litterature now a days. Still have some work to do. But I manage enuff to live few years in USA with no problem what so ever. Same thing in England. But I assume, that you, being right on anything, are the master in english language and teach us all a lesson in it, just like you teach us what racism is all over the world.
Just like you can tell Femi that he does not know a didi about racism, compared to wheat white polish guy that is. After all, he has his roots in Africa and in Mediterannean region, so it is clear that he can not know as much as you do about these things. 😀
LikeLike
@ eco
I see, you haven’t lived there. Is that what makes you the expert?
“Colourblindness” has nothing to do with that. Of course if you encounter people in person, it will be obvious if their origins are not european. However that’s irrelevant if you can connect on some level. And that level is always there in one way or another.
If you talk to someone you’ve never met before on the phone in FR, UK or NL who was born and raised in one of these countries I bet you any sum you’ll be unable to tell what ethnicity they are. You might be able to tell which part of the countries they grew up in by the accent. But that’s it. You can even chat about the weather, football, local politics, you name it, and have an immediate cultural affinity although you might look totally different. If you then meet that person it’s already clear and accepted that he/she is Brit, French or Dutch. The looks might be a surprise but that’s quickly overcome as you already have some affinity.
I have to say it again, people need to really get out more instead of just repeating their own media, literature etc.
LikeLike
@ sam 🙂
I grew up as a “bougnoule” in France. I’m totally clueless about racism but at least I remember that word very well… lol 😉
LikeLike
Abagond & Family:
Why does hollywood and the fashion/modeling industry create roadblocks for blackwomen? Abagond, please allow me to “deconstruct” the bulls**t?
1. Whitemen have a lot of racial guilt, as it relates to blackwomen. Marginalizing blackwomen allows whitemen to ignore the sins of their forefathers.
2. White slaveowners preferred “brown sugar” over “white sugar.” Whitemen, and their sexual lust of blackwomen, scarred the physche of whitewomen forever.
3. Whitewomen have never accepted the fact that there white brothers chose blackwomen over them. Whitewomen hold grudges against blackwomen because of slavery…They don’t think they can compete with blackwomen head-to-head.
4. Blocking blackwomen from being successful in hollywood and the fashion/modeling industry may soothe the fragile egos of whitewomen for now, but, it can never hide the jealousy and envy that is within the white female.
5. Black female sexuality is explosive, and thus, whitemen have no self-control. The lack of self-control among whitemen as it relates to blackwomen speaks for itself. National Geographic exposed the true nature of whitemen on the planet…seeing african sistas with their chocolate breasts exposed for all to see made whitemen crazy with lust. Chocolate will always trump vanilla…Ask the Arabs, Persians, East-Indians, Spanish, and Portugese about “Pink Cookies?”
6. Blackwomen are “The Gatekeepers Of Humanity.” Genetics(AfricanDNA)…Beauty(AfricanPhenotype)…Sexuality(BlackLove).
Tyrone,
Black Diamond…Never Bend…Never Break
LikeLike
@Sam
“Well, you seem to be backtracking a little but I guess you have no choice.”
I’m explaining my opinions, not changing them.
“You said, many times, that world is racist. You said that white europeans are racists, at least the majority of them are. I showed you that they are not.”
No, you wrote examples of people who were tolerated. That doesn’t mean they were truly, fully accepted. I explained the difference when I was writing about being a citizen and being a true native. Basically, the fact that you like and support a person doesn’t mean you see him/her as one of “us” (“us” means the national/ethnic group you consider yourself a member of). Especially if that person is a celebrity and their success has practically no impact on your life.
There are millions of white people who are fans of Will Smith, Michael Jordan, Rihanna or Jay-Z, who would become anxious if they noticed that a lot of “ethnic” people are moving into their neighborhood. That’s called the “white flight” and it exists. Read about it on English Wikipedia. The article has examples from Europe.
No, that’s not xenophobia. They are not afraid of foreigners (immigrants). They are afraid of people who seem foreign to them, but may often be citizens culturally practically indistinguishable from the native population. They are judging them by their appearance.
The fact that a lot of white people like(d) a famous black person doesn’t prove me wrong.
Actually, you should have noticed that you cannot prove me wrong for the exact same reason why I cannot prove myself right. We cannot discuss racism in absolute terms, because we are talking about human opinions (thoughts!) that are not measurable.
I defined racism as having a racial stereotype or preconception, as seeing race as something that makes people different. That means a person doesn’t have to do racist things to have racist thoughts and be racist. You cannot prove that most people don’t have racist thoughts, that they don’t see race as something that divides humans, so you cannot prove me wrong. When you are saying that most people aren’t racist that’s an opinion, not a provable fact.
You even noticed that I keep emphasizing the fact that I’m talking about my opinions. You did that here: “But when you make a claims that most whites or europeans are racists, you should have something to back it up. Just ‘I belive’ is not going to cut it.”
“I believe” is all that can be said about it. We are talking about human thoughts and neither of us can read or measure them.
“Well, I did not hear them say that ‘this Eco guy in abagonds blog is right’.”
Yeah, but a lot of them are saying “Finland is racist” and that is one of my points. Why are you dismissing those opinions?
“As I did today with my friend from Togo.”
Yeah, I’m sure some of your best friends are black.
Read Abagond’s “The Good Darkie Fallacy” post. He explained it well. If you think that the opinion of the black people you know is enough, then you are thinking in a racist way – you are assuming that all black people think alike. The opinion of a few people is just that – an opinion of a few people. They are not worth more than other opinions.
“I think your problem is that as you have woken up in the real world, you think you are the first of your kind. I think your real problem is that you think that you are the only shining example of wisdom in this subject. And that, my friend, is also very annoying, not just childish.”
I think you are in no position to judge my views. You don’t seem to understand them.
“I also read a lot. Like a book a week.”
Lay off fiction and start reading about formal logic.
“Well, here you go again. You do not believe me so you dismis the reality here. Nobody, including racists in Finland, see her as a foreigner since SHE IS NOT. ”
You still don’t understand what a perpetual foreigner is. It’s not about being foreign (an immigrant). It’s not about your citizenship. It’s how people see you and if they consider you to be just like them, one of their own.
Even you don’t see the beauty queen as one of your own and yet you are trying to deny it. You proved that you see the beauty queen as one of “them” just by mentioning her. You claim she is an ordinary, regular girl, but you picked her, because you know she isn’t regular. She is black, and you are aware of that, but you are claiming that it doesn’t matter and immediately after that you showed why it DOES matter. Finland didn’t see her as just a regular “Finnish woman”. She is a “BLACK Finnish woman”. That’s why her win in the competition was a big deal and that’s why you brought it up.
You claim that her color doesn’t matter, but it does! Because of it she is special. If she wasn’t black, if she was just another white, blond girl would her win get as much attention as it did get? Would so many people remember her? She isn’t just “Finland’s beauty queen”, she is “Finland’s BLACK beauty queen”. Every time a Finn points out her race that Finn proves that her race makes her different, special. She will never be seen as just “a Finn” like white Finns are. She will die being “a BLACK Finn”. She will die being unusual.
You are claiming her color doesn’t matter, but it does. You wouldn’t have remembered her is she was ordinary and normal. You remember her, because you do know she isn’t just another Finnish woman. You do see her as a BLACK woman and you do see her as a perpetual foreigner, because you do know that her race makes her different, unlike other, regular Finns.
How can you deny that?! How can you claim she isn’t different, when you are clearly thinking she is important because she is BLACK, because she is different.
“So do not try to tell me how racist finns think of her or any other black finns. ”
And again you proved that you do know she isn’t average and regular. In your eyes she is “a BLACK Finn”. I bet most white people in Finland see her as a “BLACK Finn”. That was my original point. They do see her as different, because of her race. Most probably think they are treating her normally, equally, but simply by acknowledging her race they are seeing her as a person who isn’t regular.
“Oh, now it is the trends? You said that white europeans prefer white women. You said that they are racists. I showed you that all ready twenty years ago we chose a black woman as the most beautiful woman in Finland. You do not like that. That is why you keep shifting your arguments this and that way.”
I’m not shifting anything. You combined two of my points into one, when I wasn’t doing that. My preference argument had always been about trends. Right at the beginning of our discussion I told you to “look at lad magazines targeted at white men”. I wanted you to notice that the overwhelming majority of women white men find attractive are white. I wanted you to see the trend, the pattern – their preference.
My point about the prevalence of racism was a different thing and I haven’t combined the two. It’s you who claimed that the beauty queen disproves both.
“First of all, you reveal yourself by using term “race” here. See, only racist believes in races.”
So you finally admitted to being a racist. Good for you!
That’s sarcasm. I hope you understand it better than logic…
You do see the beauty queen as a BLACK woman. You do see her race (even if you know that her color shouldn’t matter) and you know it makes her different. It’s the reason why she was treated differently, why she became so popular.
“Majority of finnish beauty queens have been whites. Why? You think it is prove of racism? It is because we have so few black women competing.”
You are getting confused. I’ve never claimed it proves racism. I openly said the prevalence of racism cannot be proven and I explained why it cannot be proven one more time earlier in this comment.
You made the claim that the beauty queen shows I was wrong about the two issues (beauty preference of white men and the prevalence of racism).
I already explained in this comment how the fact that you chose her proves the prevalence of racism (you see her as black, even though you claim color doesn’t matter).
When it comes to white men and their beauty preference I think magazines and especially porn show preference much better than some beauty contest. When I commented on your claims I focused on showing why the fact that this one time a black woman won a beauty contest is unimportant. That she is an exception and not a trend.
You are right, the number of black participants in beauty contests is limited. That’s not the case when it comes to magazines and porn. They can use images of women from all over the world, but they usually prefer white women. Why? In my opinion, because images of white women sell better. White men prefer them.
That’s especially obvious when you analyze the content of internet porn. Porn with white women dominates the internet and is clearly much more popular than porn with black women. It’s not just that there is more of it. If porn with black women was seen as being as attractive as porn with white women then the best porn movies with black women should be as popular as best porn with white women. That’s not happening. Porn with white women is way more popular. Actually, porn with black women is often considered almost as a kinky fetish.
“Lola Odusoga was the first black woman ever to participate in any beauty contest in Finland and she won right away.”
Again, you called her black and you pointed out, that she is unusual, the first of her kind. You do see her as different.
“BUT they did not see her ‘race’ as an obstacle.”
but they did see her race! They did see her as different, unusual, because of her race. That’s why she was given all the attention. And like you said “only racist believes in races”. People can say that color doesn’t matter all they want. They do know what “race” means and they categorize people according to it. Even when they are doing that subconsciously and don’t have bad intentions when they do it. You cannot claim that you see all people as equal when it is clear that you are categorizing them and assigning them to different groups.
“Just like you can tell Femi that he does not know a didi about racism, compared to wheat white polish guy that is.”
That’s not what I did at all. I discussed the white perspective on racism. I wasn’t lecturing Femi how he should think or feel about it.
LikeLike
@ Olufemi
“ ‘Colourblindness’ has nothing to do with that. Of course if you encounter people in person, it will be obvious if their origins are not european. However that’s irrelevant if you can connect on some level. And that level is always there in one way or another.”
Absolutely. I wasn’t denying that. What I was trying to point out is that people do subconsciously think of “us” and “them”. We don’t simply see people as people. We do categorize people. Most of the time we don’t mean anything bad by that and, like you said, we can connect with “them”, be friends with “them” and even be in love with one of “them”.
The problem is that we do think of people as “us” and “them”. We do see race like if it was something more important than other features.
We don’t believe all people with brown eyes are similar and form a group different then the group containing people with green eyes. But we do see “black people” and “white people” as groups even if we believe that they are equal.
LikeLike
“You made the claim that the beauty queen shows I was wrong about the two issues (beauty preference of white men and the prevalence of racism).
I already explained in this comment how the fact that you chose her proves the prevalence of racism (you see her as black, even though you claim color doesn’t matter).”
Wow! I used the wrong word here.
It should have been: “the fact that you chose her suggests the prevalence of racism”.
LikeLike
Uncle Milton said:
“As for why they didn’t chose any of the other actresses you listed..well half were unknowns when the film was shot (1983..) and Shari Belafonte running around in a Sword and Fantasy film just strikes me as absurd.”
I knew you were going to say this. The film was probably cast in 1983 when Janet Jackson and Whitney Houston, for example, were still pretty much unknown. They did not burst onto the scene till 1985 and 1986, respectively. As it was, they did not move into acting till the 1990s.
If I had written the post I would have made sure to list only black actresses with a filmography that takes in 1984. People like Pam Grier.
Somewhere in my email I have a draft letter to Ankhesen on this point, but I did not send it because I think her general point was right: even if her list is slightly anachronistic, at any given point there is always more than enough underemployed black female acting talent.
As to Miss Belafonte and the other models on the list, I think most of them would have had no trouble playing a goddess or a queen, some remote but beautiful figure. Hitting people with sticks is not the only thing that black women can do.
LikeLike
I apologise up front for spinning this off topic even further but I just wanted to reply to the last one, as it was directly addressed to me and I just can’t let it sit that way.
@ eco
Once again, what you write obviously reveals that you have never lived in the countries I mentioned. I don’t know where you get your information from but it sounds very much like repeating American propaganda. It’s all innate, genetic. Worldwide. And that’s the only way it can be because that’s how we Americans are and we are always right. They also always present this attitude as if there’s nothing wrong with it. Plain essentialism.
It’s none of my business what kind of people you choose to frequent in Europe who might share that attitude but rest assured, those are not the kind of people myself, my family, friends, colleagues, neighbours etc frequent or have even encountered randomly. And we’re very certainly not living under a rock.
My gran was Cameroonian, my mother was mixed Cameroonian / French, my father is “white” British (with Baltic and some Northern Indian from his Sinti heritage). My larger family (including cousins etc) range in complexion from the palest blonde to the darkest central African. If I add the in-laws, we have Vietnamese, Malgache and Réunionais (with looks that would throw those “race realists” out of kilter). Never ever have I seen any of them in a completely homogeneous group of friends. Long term intimate friends, that is. I’ve also seen all of them dating people totally different from them. I’ve seen them having their beefs among each other but, with any of them. Never was there a sentiment of group dynamics along “racial” lines.
Yes, we all look different. We know that, it’s all too obvious. And that’s exactly why we don’t need to obsess on that. Not to mention the absurdity to form groups along complexion or eye shape lines. We have enough to talk about. That also includes racism. However, life is complex and eventful enough to waste it on digging artificial ridges. If I’m refused a job because of my looks it would be totally absurd to resent my cousins or friends who are 100% white. We need to get through the crap together and do what we can to make a difference. No (pseudo)academic declarations can change that fact.
My parents and even my grandparents (in France in the thirties!) never experienced any perceptible outside pressure from strangers regarding their different “races”. None of anyone’s business, that was always the bottom line. Yes, there’s always silly gossip but that’s easy to shrug off.
Where my parents did get the first really dirty looks, judgemental comments and assumptions they can’t possibly be married, was on their first and only visit in the USA. It was truly a shock for them as they assumed that those “racial” hangups should have been over in the eighties.
It raises the question who really is denatured here.
I bet you a pint on this one. If you go to an English pub where British Black, White, Asian etc sit together chatting and a freshly immigrated Ukrainian walks in and tries to order a pint in dodgy English, he’ll be the outsider. Well, to be brutally honest, he is in fact an outsider because most English (Black, White, Asian) know jack about Ukrainian culture and language. They might find some kind of connection but what won’t happen is that suddenly the white Brits turn away from the Blacks and Asians to take care of a “new found white race fellow”. (Unless of course they are white supremacy dimwits but that’s unlikely in a situation like that.) They’ll probably be more worried about their jobs, thinking the Ukrainian bloke will work for less salary.
It would be similar in FR and NL. However if there are current trends towards picking up the American attitudes along “racial” lines, it does take instigation. Those kind of tensions are man-made. They don’t just grow out of nowhere. It would have already happened long time ago.
Sorry again. I hope Abagond, you’ll let this one slip 😉 I’m off now.
LikeLike
@eco: This is rather useless because you are just trying to be right, which you are not, instead of opening your eyes. But I’ll answer you once more, if abagond has not had enough of this self repeating circle you want to go around.
“Yeah, I’m sure some of your best friends are black.
Read Abagond’s “The Good Darkie Fallacy” post. He explained it well. If you think that the opinion of the black people you know is enough, then you are thinking in a racist way – you are assuming that all black people think alike. The opinion of a few people is just that – an opinion of a few people. They are not worth more than other opinions.”
Well, if you really think like that, then why your opinion matters at all? I mean, it is only your opinion, not even opinion of ten people. So, according to your logic, since you are the only one saying what you are saying, it is totally meaningless and useless? Right?
I do not know how YOUNG you are, but once again: do not put words in my mouth, please. I never said that I think all blacks think this way or that. I never has said so. I do not know how many black friends you have but, yes, I have some.
I have had black friends in US, in some African countries etc. Not many, but some. For me they are first and foremost individuals, not blacks nor anything else. They are just my friends, yes.
And on that note, the black women I have had some other kinds of encounters have also been women, first and foremost. Just women. Maybe their skin color is different, but to me they are women. So do not come to talk to me about seeing persons as individuals instead of groups. You are talking about groups all the time, see.
Reason why I pointed this to you is that I assume from your writings and opinions that you do not know anybody. Maybe you have seen blacks on tv? Perhaps in some movie or walking on the street? I do not know. You are so confused here.
“You still don’t understand what a perpetual foreigner is. It’s not about being foreign (an immigrant). It’s not about your citizenship. It’s how people see you and if they consider you to be just like them, one of their own.
Even you don’t see the beauty queen as one of your own and yet you are trying to deny it. You proved that you see the beauty queen as one of “them” just by mentioning her. You claim she is an ordinary, regular girl, but you picked her, because you know she isn’t regular. She is black, and you are aware of that, but you are claiming that it doesn’t matter and immediately after that you showed why it DOES matter. Finland didn’t see her as just a regular “Finnish woman”. She is a “BLACK Finnish woman”. That’s why her win in the competition was a big deal and that’s why you brought it up.
You claim that her color doesn’t matter, but it does! Because of it she is special. If she wasn’t black, if she was just another white, blond girl would her win get as much attention as it did get? Would so many people remember her? She isn’t just “Finland’s beauty queen”, she is “Finland’s BLACK beauty queen”. Every time a Finn points out her race that Finn proves that her race makes her different, special. She will never be seen as just “a Finn” like white Finns are. She will die being “a BLACK Finn”. She will die being unusual.
You are claiming her color doesn’t matter, but it does. You wouldn’t have remembered her is she was ordinary and normal. You remember her, because you do know she isn’t just another Finnish woman. You do see her as a BLACK woman and you do see her as a perpetual foreigner, because you do know that her race makes her different, unlike other, regular Finns.
How can you deny that?! How can you claim she isn’t different, when you are clearly thinking she is important because she is BLACK, because she is different.”
I am glad that you have learned a new english word “perpetual foreigner”. Great. But most of that above is rubbish. You do not know how or what I think. You believe. You just want to be right on this. I showerd that you are not. Now I must tell you: grow up.
How many Miss Finlands you want me to name? The white ones? Ten? I can do it. That would prove that you were wrong in that too. But once again: grow up.
I brought Lola up for one simple reason: when a self claimed racist was wrinting that he is racist living in a racist country and that every one in Europe is racist, I wanted to show to that racist (you), that it is not so. Example this beauty queen.
You did not like it. You got mad. You wanted to show that I am wrong. I understand it. It is only human. But you go on and on and on with the same dodoo. You are not getting anywhere with this. You are just repeating yourself. Why? Just to be right.
The truth is that you have your ideas and want to be right. You say that I am thinking this and that way, but you are wrong. You put words in my mouth, thoughts in my head, which you think are there. They are actually in your head. Not in mine.
“That’s especially obvious when you analyze the content of internet porn. Porn with white women dominates the internet and is clearly much more popular than porn with black women. It’s not just that there is more of it. If porn with black women was seen as being as attractive as porn with white women then the best porn movies with black women should be as popular as best porn with white women. That’s not happening. Porn with white women is way more popular. Actually, porn with black women is often considered almost as a kinky fetish.”
Well, I think anyone who reads that understands that you have a long way to go from being racist to somebody who does have not racism inside his head.
And with this I end this dicussion from my part. Thanks for patience abagond.
LikeLike
I thought Zula kicked a lot of ass in that movie and her use of eye shadow was revolutionary!
LikeLike
To Abagond:
If I had written the post I would have made sure to list only black actresses with a filmography that takes in 1984. People like Pam Grier.
I could see Pam Grier in the role and perhaps Tina Turner but none of the other women. I went through a few of the video clips and realized that this was their sort of spoof film. Red Sonya was the atrocious follow up. Conan the Barbarian actually took itself seriously (even though 29 years later one notices it had many ridiculous lines..) but Conan the Destroyer did not. I don’t know.. I just don’t see that this film influenced the American public in any way… unlike films (since we are talking about films and how they affect the feelings of Whites towards other races..) such as Rambo II and the Karate Kid that did have an impact.
I posted the interviews of Grace Jones from 1984/1985 to demonstrate that her look in the film was how she presented herself to the general public at the time. (A look she had starting in about 1981…) I would to hear what her thoughts were about the film.
As for Black women being under utilized in modern films as love interests.. yeah you won’t get any argument from me.
LikeLike
@Olufemi
I probably should have named it differently, because “us” and “them” implies one has some sort of sense of unity with other people from his/her group. That’s usually not the case. It’s just about knowing who is seen as a member of your group and who isn’t. I think the unfortunate name confused you a bit, but I cannot think of a more appropriate one.
You are noticing that some of the people you know are seen as “black” and some as “white” – that’s what I’m talking about. I know you believe categorizing people like that doesn’t make sense, that the groups are equal, that racial stereotypes are untrue, etc. You know that most other people believe that too. You think “race” is pointless and doesn’t mean anything, but you do see it. You know who is “black” and who is “white”. Other people do too and that gives “race” meaning.
Virtually all of us know how society divides people into races, even though few believe the races are somehow fundamentally different. This is what I meant when I wrote about the prevalence of the “us” and “them” mentality. It’s just about noticing race, not about believing that it’s good and makes sense.
I’m not sure if my discussion with you is that far off topic. From my perspective the “us” and “them” mentality partially explains the different perceptions of Zula. Because people tend to have an “us” and “them” mentality about race:
A) racial stereotypes can exist. Because of racial stereotypes it was seen as acceptable for a black actress to play an exotic, savage, masculine, asexual character.
B) white people generally didn’t care about the offensive, stereotypical character representing black women. It wasn’t important to them, because they didn’t feel that the character is representing them.
C) some black people did care, because they felt the character was representing black women – a group they feel connected to.
@Sam
“This is rather useless because you are just trying to be right, which you are not, instead of opening your eyes.”
I think you believe that you are colorblind so deeply that you cannot accept the fact that I’ve proven that you do categorize people according to race.
“Well, if you really think like that, then why your opinion matters at all? I mean, it is only your opinion, not even opinion of ten people. So, according to your logic, since you are the only one saying what you are saying, it is totally meaningless and useless? Right?”
No. That’s not logical. First of all I found other opinions supporting my claims. You are dismissing them because you apparently believe that the opinion you and some of your friends share is practically dogma.
Second thing is that it doesn’t really matter how many people support your opinion. Having others support you helps to convince people, but it doesn’t make one more right. I know you do not understand logic, but you should read about “argumentum ad populum”.
“do not put words in my mouth, please. I never said that I think all blacks think this way or that. I never has said so.”
Yeah, you haven’t said that. You just acted like if you believed that you know what all black people think about racism in Finland. Haven’t you said that you don’t need internet opinions, because you have your black friends?
“the black women I have had some other kinds of encounters have also been women, first and foremost. Just women. Maybe their skin color is different, but to me they are women.”
That’s a lie. The things you said about the beauty queen clearly show that you see her as different when compared with white Finns.
“So do not come to talk to me about seeing persons as individuals instead of groups. You are talking about groups all the time, see.”
I also called myself a racist. By doing that I acknowledged that in certain situations I do think of people as racial groups.
“You do not know how or what I think. You believe. You just want to be right on this. I showerd that you are not. Now I must tell you: grow up. ”
One more time: learn logic! When you do, you will see how the things you told me implied my comments.
“I brought Lola up for one simple reason: when a self claimed racist was wrinting that he is racist living in a racist country and that every one in Europe is racist, I wanted to show to that racist (you), that it is not so. Example this beauty queen. You did not like it. You got mad. You wanted to show that I am wrong. I understand it. It is only human.”
Actually, you don’t understand. That’s the main problem with this discussion. I showed you how Lola was treated differently by Finns because of her race. Also, I didn’t get mad because of your arguments. I got mad because of the fact that you started to insult me and my country, which (by the way) is a great way to show me your “maturity”.
“Well, I think anyone who reads that understands that you have a long way to go from being racist to somebody who does have not racism inside his head. ”
That makes me one step ahead of you. You still believe that you are not racist, but you clearly are and getting to know black people and being nice to them doesn’t change that fact.
LikeLike
@eco: 😀 😀 😀
LikeLike
You still believe that you are not racist, but you clearly are and getting to know black people and being nice to them doesn’t change that fact.
What does change the fact is cash! I need a new purse! Forget nice! How about those Vikings eh sam?
LikeLike
@herneith: 😀 You mean those ferocious images in your link? Blood curling smart savages they were, indeed.
LikeLike
the portrayal of Zula as a masculine, asexual, warrior sidekick could be due the fact that in the Conan comics Zula was male. I don’t want to come across as sounding naive but, maybe in this case it wasn’t so much as racism but maybe the lack of female characters in the movie led to them to cast the male character Zula as female. http://www.comicvine.com/zula/29-34456/
of course I’m no comic book expert and i’m not certain if the character has been male from it’s first appearence or if male Zula is the real change.
LikeLike
Nicole said:
the portrayal of Zula as a masculine, asexual, warrior sidekick could be due the fact that in the Conan comics Zula was male.
Menelik says:
and “the portrayal of Zula as a masculine, asexual, warrior sidekick could be due the fact that in America, such characteristics are often assigned to Black women!
Just saying.
LikeLike
To Menelik:
and “the portrayal of Zula as a masculine, asexual, warrior sidekick could be due the fact that in America, such characteristics are often assigned to Black women!
Often…? Could you name a few other characters then….?
LikeLike
it is clear to the naked eye that Black females are comfortably the most female of females physically speaking. Portrayals such as MS Jones are used so as to deny the obvious. Most Black women look nothing like Ms Jones!
Most humans do not look like several characters in Conan the Destroyer including Schwarzenegger himself.
LikeLike
To Menelik Charles
The darker, negroid-featured female beauty is, I think, greatly feared by heterosexual white men, and I think the reasons are obvious!
I am not sure what “negoid-featured” is supposed to be but at least in the United States, a Black woman who appears to mixed, all of other factors being equal, is more likely to get the attention of White men than a Black woman who doesn’t appear mixed. Of course there are exceptions and it is my understanding that in parts of Europe things are a bit different. As for such female beauty being feared by White men..? Are you joking..?
LikeLike
Menelik said:
and “the portrayal of Zula as a masculine, asexual, warrior sidekick could be due to the fact” that in America, such characteristics are often assigned to Black women!
Uncle Milton asked:
Often…? Could you name a few other characters then….?
Menelik replied:
I was talking about CHARACTERISTICS not characters. Ask other posters on here and I’m sure they’ll come up with loads…in fact, I can promise you!
LikeLike
To Menelik said:
and “the portrayal of Zula as a masculine, asexual, warrior sidekick could be due the fact that” in America, such characteristics are often assigned to Black women!
Uncle Milton asked:
Often…? Could you name a few other characters then….?
Menelik answers:
I said characteristics NOT characters! Ask other posters on here, and I’m sure they’ll come up with loads of “asexual” Black female “sidekicks” as characters in film and tv…in fact, I can promise you they will!
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
a Black woman who appears to mixed, all of other factors being equal, is more likely to get the attention of White men than a Black woman who doesn’t appear mixed.
Question:Is the average White man attracted to the average half-black women?
*notice I didn’t ask how she compares to other races
LikeLike
Uncle Milton said:
As for such female beauty being feared by White men..? Are you joking..?
Menelik says:
nope! Men are, at the very least, in awe of female beauty. Often that awe turns to fear when prompted by pals to approach a beauty in bar or a club.
You never knew this? Are YOU serious?!?!?
LikeLike
Menelik said:
it is clear to the naked eye that Black females are comfortably the most female of females physically speaking. Portrayals such as MS Jones are used so as to deny the obvious. Most Black women look nothing like Ms Jones!
Uncle Milton replied:
most humans do not look like several characters in Conan the Destroyer including Schwarzenegger himself.
Menelik replies:
but MOST of the people in the whole of the film were representative of normal looking white folk! Schwarzenegger and a few other white characters were therefore the exception to this norm!
Ms (asexual, masculine) Jones, by contrast, was being represented as a racial rule not a racial exception!
You can’t see this?
LikeLike
To Menelik:
I was talking about CHARACTERISTICS not characters.
Well yes I know… but I was seeking characters who displayed those characteristics.
LikeLike
To Menelik:
nope! Men are, at the very least, in awe of female beauty. Often that awe turns to fear when prompted by pals to approach a beauty in bar or a club.
The darker, negroid-featured female beauty is, I think, greatly feared by heterosexual white men, and I think the reasons are obvious!
Well.. like or not .. I would say the operating word would be ignored and not feared, at least in the US.
LikeLike
but MOST of the people in the whole of the film were representative of normal looking white folk! Schwarzenegger and a few other white characters were therefore the exception to this norm!
Have you seen the film recently…?
It had Pat Roach as a part Man/part Ape… Ahnold… Wilt Chamberlain, Andre the Giant…most of the people who were on the screen for more than a few minutes looked unusual or were made to look unusual.
LikeLike
To The Cynic:
Question:Is the average White man attracted to the average half-black women?
I’d say.. at least in the US.. that a White guy would be more likely to be attracted to a biracial Black woman… than a Black woman as Menelik described. Most assuredly, of course, there are exceptions… Peter Norton and Roger Elbert come to mind.
LikeLike
Okay, just out of curiosity, I have to ask why are white men specifically afraid of dark black women.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
I specifically mentioned that I didn’t ask for a comparison. You didn’t answer the question I asked. If I had asked if the average white American guy was attracted to Black women, I’m sure you could have answered without comparing her to Asians, whites, or any other race.
I am asking about Half Black women alone.
LikeLike
To The Cynic:
If I had asked if the average white American guy was attracted to Black women, I’m sure you could have answered without comparing her to Asians, whites, or any other race.
I am asking about Half Black women alone.
Well I didn’t compare biracial Black women to other races.. I compared them to other Black women in so far as how I think White guys would likely consider them… Considering my exchange with Menelik, I thought my response was in context. Beauty is relative and in the eye of the beholder and almost invariably would invite comparison… I am not trying to offend anyone just trying to suggest how I think most US White guys would react.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
Biracial means two races, Black is a mono-racial term. They are not apart of the same race. That is like comparing half-black women to white women. I’m not gonna get mad about your answer, I am just curious about what that answer is. My question was only inspired by your exchange with Menelik. This isn’t an extension of that exchange. It’s a totally separate question.
Do you think most US white guys are attracted to half-black, half-white women? I believe you already gave us the yes/no answer to BW, so what about Afro-Euro biracial girls?
LikeLike
Black women can be just attractive to men as white women. For every racist anti-bw crap there’s one’s that will love it. Like I as from my experience, it’s not a problem. As long as you’re not fat and counrty., but even then……………….
LikeLike
To The Cynic:
Biracial means two races, Black is a mono-racial term.
I get that.. but it seems as if a fairly high proportion of biracial Black/ (Asian, White, Latino..) people self identify as Black at least in the US. I do know of some exceptions but those exceptions tend to be half phenotype that favors their non-Black side.
Do you think most US white guys are attracted to half-black, half-white women?
I think most younger White guys are at least attracted to some black, half-white women. Whether they are willing to ask them out is perhaps a different story. As with any group the more attractive the woman the broader the audience.. as important I think is how and with who she socializes. Most of Black/White biracial women I knew who dated White guys had predominantly White friends. That said I have lived in the SF Bay Area for years and am 50 years old.. so there may be different things happening in other parts of the country and within different age groups.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
Okay. I was asking more about phenotype affected by both African & European heritage and not social racial identities. A lot of Half blks may identify as simply black, but idk if most do. Either way, I’m just talking about physical looks.
I appreciate your answer, but I couldn’t be sure if it was ‘no’ or ‘yes.’ Most white guys are attracted to at least some women of every race. I wanted to know about the average. I think it’s safe to say most White guys are attracted to White & Asian women on average. I can’t be sure, but I don’t think most are attracted to Black women.
When you said “at least some” was that a nice way of saying only a small percentage of half blk girls? Or maybe you just can’t be sure like you are with other races?
LikeLike
Intriguing discussions here. Can I just say, Right on Tyrone!! 🙂
LikeLike
e-dub asked:
Okay, just out of curiosity, I have to ask why are white men specifically afraid of dark black women?
Menelik replies:
why are men specifically afraid of attractive women? For example, why are they afraid to approach them?
LikeLike
Amband :
I just checked meagan Good out. Yes she is very attractive. Seeing her with the black bloke made me think about the BM, when with a BW, always like BW with lighter skin
than themselves
In Africa, it is custom for various tribes for the females to lighten the skin to be more attractive to the male
So it appears there is an ingrained natural preference for BMs to light BW with lighter skin than themselves and being in the US for about 3 hundred years has not changed that.
Maroundou1984 :
I do not know whether men are predisposed to prefer light skin. But what you said about the skin lightening in Africa is wrong. No, this is not a custom in “tribes” to clarify the skin. And even today, African women do not always. I am from Gabon. In my ethnicity (punu) beautiful skin is smooth, uniform, shining in the sun. No matter the color. But more often than we like dark skin because most women have dark skin.
Same for these ethnic groups: Ashanti, Baule, Wolof, Kongo.
But I do not know if a woman with light skin was more beautiful than a woman with dark skin for the ancient Africans. Even though their beauty was equal. I acknowledge that there is a growing preference for the European model today.
Sorry for my english
LikeLike
Here are the beauty queens of several countries in Africa. Even today, a beautiful black woman is not necessarily clear skin.
Edwige Madze Badakcu (miss world Cup 2006) She’s togolese
http://www.grioo.com/info7034.html
Natasha Metto (Kenya)
http://tv.sfr.fr/actu-tv/Chaines-et-emissions/Miss-Monde-2010-Miss-Kenya-remporte-le-concours-generosite-ainsi-que-la-derniere-place-en-finale-6797.html
and
Grace Bahati (Rwanda 2010)
Selamawit Zerabruck (miss Eritrea 2009)
Murielle Nanié (miss Ivory Coast 2008)
Lynn-Shelly Miyendzi Sanda (miss Gabon 2004)
LikeLike
@Abagond, I am a hard core Conan fan, but I think the movies are untrue to the comics, most becouse of the woman are not hot and big breasthed enough. Take Sandal Bergman, the main female caracter in the best Conan movie Conan the Barbarian. She is not hot at all, not a sword woman Conan worthy, small titts and she looks like some kind of a bird in her face. You shuld realy get a hard one of the women in a Conan movie.
Grace Jones does her role as a sword woman ok, better than Brigitte Nielsen in Red Sonja, but I agree that they could have piced a hotter acter to a more sexy caracter. I siriously don’t se Whitney Houston (shes like the black answer to Céline Dion, and she had Kevin Costner as a bodyguard ) or Janet Jackson (to cute and weak) as swordswinging amazones. A swordwoman must have the strength to swing a sword, the sexy angry look who lives no doubt she can f***k the s***t out of you an seperate your head from your body after the act and stick it one a pole just for fun.
Conan the Destroyer is from 1984, but if it had been tomorrow they should shoot it, I would vote for Monique( a black pornstar)or Jada Fire (another black pornstar) to start as the black Amazon Zula.
PS! the links to the pictures under are non-pornographic.
LikeLike
as an african from a dark skin luo tribe i have to say that menelik is the only racist here. What the fuk do you mean most black women look nothing like grace jones? only because you ethiopians are so freaking racist towards other africans that you come onto this blog to suggest that there are racial unertones to casting grace jones as zula. In my tribe she is viewed as a beautiful prize..yet you try to convince these people that africans like bleaching their skin? Robert E Howard was trying to depict ancient exotic cultures (amazon to be exact) the way they really looked, he wasn’t trying to be racist because to a european it is an exotic look. Dark skinned africans felt the same way about white females to this very day..they look weird to us..does that mean we are racist? i bet you wanted her to look like iman or beyonce to have more of an appeal so your white friends wouldnt make fun of you as an african right..dude you are so shallow it hurts. Hyboria is an ancient age whereby the dark skin nubians controlled the nubian and egyptian kingdom at some point in time..it was recently until the 19th century with all the racial definitions that the view of dark blk women as not pretty emerged. If you are a Conan fan you know that there are white people depicted as savages too(picts,vikings). Jada fire as a porn star to act as an amazon …lol you americans ahve no culture to the point you think porn stars are much more ahtletic than the beautiful grace jones.Let me tell you something..amazons looked like men and indeed they were strong so what are you ashamed of? iman could come close to even lifting a fuking sword let alone be cast as a powerful warrior so get of your light skin darkskin obssesion and go and save that for the modern entertainment business
LikeLike
i was a little bit angry in the beginning but i have now calmed down…zula was an amazon you get it..an amazon…why ohhh why do you think a girl like tina turner or for heavens sake pam grier would have better suited the role? do people on this blog understand hyborian stories? do they understand fantasy..hell do they even understand history? amazons were rumoured to be lesbian and also to have their left breast cut off so they could use a bow and arrow more efficiently so newsflash they weren’t your western world depictions of beauty that you always cling too….cant you get it? i seriously don’t know why you don’t understand that grace jones was perfect for the role..it was how she looked at the time and also it was the savage period…that’s why its called CONAN THE BARBARIAN NOT CONAN AND THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF ALTANTA? people are so dumb it hurts lol…..the character was well cast..it is not racist…it is just what it is…white people find that character exotic because they just do…just like white people used to pay to see sara baartman in the 19th century (which i think was racist) but we still see it today with the magazines (king) and in strip clubs all over america…there is a facsination in the western world for exotic looking black females and casting grace jones was playing to that pysci..its entertainment folks that whats it is..who wants to see pam grier lifitng a sword in barbaric times…who wants to see tina turner as an amazon? even valeria was a perfect cast in conan thebarbarian because she was a warrior not a freaking porn star..if anything these guys were trying to stay true to historical fact…do you think joan of arc of boudecia or the nubian candaces who drove of the romans looked like jada fire? do you even know that nubians had dark skin women as their queens? do you really think they looked like halle berry or iman? the warriors were tuff and agile like valeria and zula so deal with it…beauty is in the eye of the beholder and this is an ancient warrior story..but in seeing that most of you are black americans who have been enslaved for so long and taught to hate each other it makes perfect sense why all the replacements you have chosen are light skinned and look like freaking soft models not real black warriors of old(sorry no offense)…have a good day
LikeLike
and the last thing…what do you mean most black women don’t look like grace jones? are you implying that she is less of a human being? have you been to all regions in africa to claim that most black women don’t look like grace jones or are you simply trying to defend your brainwashed african american population? trying to make your women feel like they are beautiful and better than original african looking women aren’t we…so pathetic. I actually find lean women like race jones attractive because i come from africa..the birth place of black people and trust me i have seen wayyyy more black people than any of you have and get this into your head..the western view of beauty is NOT shared all across the world. In fact it is racist white colonialists that created this theory in the 19th century and african americans completely bought into it because they were too weak to love their own dark skin and since they were the coons in america (pam grier and such) they promoted these images of black beauty all acros the world and now they are mad that a lady with african looking feautures is potrayed an ancient nubian african race that were famed warriors. So you post up pictures of janet jackson to play a freaking amazon lol its called Conan the Barbarian not tyler perry conan beautiful black warrior princess lol
LikeLike
I would agree with Nubian about Grace Jones here, she pulls off being a warrior woman/amazon far better than any of the other nominations.
Say what you will; she certainly looks like a woman who could kick ass and belongs in that setting, far more than Janet Jackson.
Not that I’m necessarily disagreeing with whats been stated in general; just saying that when it came to casting a bad ass warrior woman, they did a good job.
Also I don’t think that using beauty queens works as an example of a place lacking racism, america’s had a few black ones over the years and we still have plenty of racism, we’ve come along way from the cross burning days but still alot of kinks to be worked out.
As for europe and racism, first generation Ukrainian might not be as accepted as blacks and asians but second generation brit/ukrain will be more accepted won’t they?
One thing to think about inregards to europeans and racism is this, one of the things I remember hearing is that despite the Us’s apparent greater racism, were actually more comfortable with seeing black headliners on the screen than those outside of the US, going by how well they do here in the theaters.
Something to think about.
LikeLike
“that’s why its called CONAN THE BARBARIAN NOT CONAN AND THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF ALTANTA?”
Well, nubian’s post gave me a good laugh early this morning and I actually agree, Grace Jones suits the part of the warrior woman perfectly.
LikeLike
I used to read the Conan comic books as a kid. Did you know Zula is really supposed to be a male character?
Also, I remember in Conan the Destroyer, there was a scene where there is a quick flash of Grace Jones’ vagina. I believe it has since been removed. The scene, I mean. Not the vagina.
LikeLike
@ Bulanik
Yup. It was definitely delightful, since I’m a Grace Jones fan.
LikeLike
LOL! Fantastic. I wish she would do more American films.
LikeLike
You’re so far off the mark looking for something to upset you, you don’t even get how awesome Zula is. And how beautiful Grace Jones is. Whatever. Racist politics are all you’ll ever be.
LikeLike
Well Conan didn’t find black women attractive anyhow.
LikeLike
The person who wrote this post craved the attention of the type of white men she/he/they/it decries. A black masochist with color issues.
“She’s not cast to be sexually alluring to the (white) hetero male demographic which dominates this sword-and-sorcery audience. She’s not written to be fascinating in any way. Only the least attractive, most annoying man in the film makes a move on her one time, and she immediately threatens to “spread [his] head.” (that possibility is an aphrodisiac to some men.)
So once more, the black woman is effectively rendered sexless and unworthy of pursuing.” (By white men). Enough said.
LikeLike