Dr Laura Schlessinger on August 10th 2010 used the n-word 11 times on her radio show. Her show reaches 9 million listeners across America. A day later she apologized. She said she was trying to make a philosophical point.
Dr Laura is a doctor of physiology but is licensed in the state of California to give family and marriage advice. Which she does for those who call in, though at times she talks about her right-wing views.
On August 10th a black woman named Jade called asking what she should do about her white husband who allows his friends and family to say racist stuff like the n-word in front of her.
Dr Laura thought white people using the n-word was no big deal:
Black guys use it all the time. Turn on HBO, listen to a black comic, and all you hear is nigger, nigger, nigger. I don’t get it. If anybody without enough melanin says it, it’s a horrible thing, but when black people say it, it’s affectionate. It’s very confusing.
She went on using the word seven more times, throwing in such stock white racist rhetoric as:
“my dear friend is a black man”
“a lot of blacks voted for Obama simply ’cause he was half-black”
“complaining about racism”
“chip on your shoulder”
“hypersensitivity, okay, which is being bred by black activists”
When Jade called her a bad person for using the n-word, Dr Laura cut off her call. Later she said of Jade:
If you’re that hypersensitive about colour and don’t have a sense of humour, don’t marry out of your race.
Dr Laura is 63 years old, has a PhD and has been in public life for over 30 years, but yet all that supposed wisdom, intelligence and experience was not enough to stop her from using the n-word over and over again in front of millions of people.
Every year or so some white public figure says some out-and-out racist thing. Like they are just bursting with racism and cannot help themselves or something.
In America it is an extremely well-known fact that blacks do not like whites using the n-word. That alone should be reason enough for whites not to say the word. End of story.
But no. Even that simple act of respect is a bridge too far for some of them. Like Dr Laura. Why is that?
She says it is “confusing” because some black entertainers use the word. The woman has a PhD and yet cannot understand that the word, given its ugly, racist past, has a very different meaning coming out of a mouth of a white person? Is she serious?
As to her “philosophical point” that somehow required her to use the word 11 times: if you apply her reasoning to the word “bitch”, it is all right to use that word too: after all, some women call each other the b-word, even affectionately! So the only reason to get upset at that word is hypersensitivity and having no sense of humour. Right?
See also:
Or fag and dyke. Those homosexuals call each other that with affection sometimes. If the gays have a problem with those with heterosexual privilege calling them that, they have no sense of humor.
There’s a huge difference between black people using a variation of the word, and WHITE people using the word in ANY form. There’s centuries of pain behind that word. You have to wonder what is wrong with white people for even wanting to use a word like that under any circumstance.
Bursting with racism, seems like an accurate descriptor.
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This woman is not a fool or unintelligent. She knew exactly what she was doing. She’s not even one of those “colour blind” racists who don’t think about their stereotypes. She is racist in the simple & obvious sense of the word and she doesn’t try to hide it.
See what she told the black commenter at the end: If you’re that hypersensitive about colour and don’t have a sense of humour, don’t marry out of your race.
Which means that is completely normal and ok for white people- even white people you are married to, use racial slurs all the time. So if you can’t live with it, too bad for you, don’t marry outside the race. Because, you know, saying racist slurs is a normal and positive and expected and funny way of every person’s behaviour.
On the other hand, I do find the taboo around the n word in America a bit confusing, since there’s no really such thing as a language privilege in my culture. But this woman is an American and she knew what she was doing. And she did in on purpose.
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I guess last part of my comment was confusing. I don’t think saying the n word, or any racist slur, or any offensive word is a good thing- even if it’s not seen as offensive among some groups you don’t belong to.
What I do find confusing is why is considered so horrible to actually pronounce that word (be it n word or any other) but not if you refer to it in alternative manner (saying “the n word”, “the b word”, etc). Isn’t the goal to stop using the word altogether?
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n word and b word are mostly used to mitigate without altering it, a situation that is reported.
The goal is not to stop anything, because the incident has already happened.
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I guess since i come from a place where everybody ELSE around me could say it but I could not, i am in a unique position to tell people like Dr. Laura Schlesinger or Elizabeth Hassleback to GROW the hell up! I dont even ever WANT to say that word. My life is complete without it. I find it is completely possible to greet my black friends and coworkers without saying it. Cripes what is so hard for people to understand about this? Why do white people want so badly to feel like this is an injustice perpetrated on them for petes sake? What does this say about them? And more importantly… why does this argument exist and resonate?
These bimbos can’t even seem to acknowledge that thier own social equivalent in the black community, super wealthy, ultra priviledged, and extremely conservative black women, would not be caught dead saying the word lightly and flippantly in public, That people who do use the shortened word publicly and lightly, are not usually in the same position as them at all. They are generally younger, or more prone to pushing the envelope. Does Laura have an obsession about using edgy young white people lingo too? No! She chooses not to use it and never thinks twice. Her abuse of that caller was strictly an act of naked racism. She has NO desire whatsoever to relate, legitimize or bond with lil’ Wayne or Chris Rock, or the teeanged black kid she would not hire to mow her lawn in ANY way but over that ONE SINGULAR word. (Which she is getting wrong)
the only thing i find hilarious about that whole thing, is her use of NAACP as a verb… She told that woman ‘Don’t NAACP me!” Excuse me? So Laura, After the recent Sherrod snafu, when white racist people accused Sherrod and the NAACP of racism and it turned out she and they, were speaking against it all along, and then white people were exposed as racists TRYING to stir up racial discord??? Is that what being NAACP’d means?? Well Dr. Laura, I guess Mrs. Jade NAACP’d you didn’t she? 🙂 Jade one, Dr. Laura NOTHING!
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I found this.
What a horrid woman.
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The whole situation is just a treasure trove of wtf to be honest.
Dr. Laura should know better but she saw an opportunity and went for it. Not wanting to be assaulted by racist slurs is NOT being hypersensitive, that word is thrown around way to much to make people feel like “cry babies”, and effectively silencing them. And she KNOWS that! A person with her mindset is extremely dangerous given her profession.
And as for Jade, you marry a racist white man, who has racist relatives and friends and then ask a racist white woman for advice. This woman too damn grown to not know that being color struck while wearing rose colored glasses is downright unhealthy for colored people.
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There can be no excuse for Dr. Laura. She has been full of herself for a number of years, and takes the attitude that anyone who calls her show for an opinion should throw out all of their own.
This time she’s just gone too far. No radio station in their right mind is going to try to explain her comments away. There isn’t even the tired old “context” argument to be made. A Black woman calls to ask advice about her White husband calling her n—– to his friends and Dr. Laura goes off on the caller for not having a sense of humor? Wow, nowhere to hide on that one.
Maybe she should go and see an *actual therapist* about resolving her racist anger issues.
P.S.
Black “entertainers” are equally ignorant – STOP making excuses, STOP using the word.
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BTW, you can also let D. Laura know how you feel.
http://www.drlaurablog.com/2010/08/11/i-apologize/email/
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The thing that the media overlooks is that many of us black people don’t like other BLACK people to use the n-word either.
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I think this woman has no business making moralistic statements about minorities using ethnic slurs to each other. Slurs that were invented by another group against them in a first place.
I remember, among my brothers we used to call each other jokingly “espèce de bougnoule” when we were young. It would drive my mother bonkers – “I don’t want to hear this trash talk in my house.” End of.
My mother did very much so have a business in telling us off but not someone we don’t know.
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The whole “only me, but not you” thing gets annoying fast. I’ve always felt we need better reasoning and better examples against its use.
Of course, smart white ppl just say in behind the backs of black ppl who are sensitive to it. No fights, no fuss. Since most listen to gangsta rap ( or some uncensored raw music), they hear it ALOT from “loud and proud” blacks.
I hope Jade DID get her point across to white husbands family that it is a problem, even after this horrific mess.
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IMO, If white people want to use the word, let them. Let’s stop letting them use this word to beat us down and make us feel horrible. They really don’t want to use the word they just like to see us get riled up. so stop getting riled up. can you really see white people saying what’s up nigger, no. that word should have no power over us anymore. we have bigger fish to fry, our young men killing each other on a daily basis yet are not graduating high school for starters
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Thanks Abagond for posting this.
What was irritating also Dr. Laura using this caller’s question as an opportunity to “diss” President Obama. My first thought when I heard this was, what in the heck does he have to do with this subject! Also, how many black people has she actually talked to form her biased opinion that the only reason we voted for him was that he is “half-black”? Do some caucasions realize that there are plenty of black politicians that black people will not vote for regardless of their color. She just blew off the fact that this man earned our vote, it was not automatic, especially in the beginning. And why do “some” white people believe they have the right to tell black people who they should admire. When I hear white people go on and on about President Reagan and how good of a president he was, I almost want to choke. I am old enough to remember President Reagan and how he ignored the poor, supported apartheid and was “asleep” any time a major disaster happened so he would not have to take the blame.
Anyway, this conversation or whatever you call it between Dr. Laura and this woman was compelling for so many reasons — not just her using the “n” word. I have never listened to her show and I wonder is she always this hostile when talking to someone she disagrees with. It appeared that after this woman got out her first couple of sentences, she had made up her mind already and appeared to be angry with this woman. I felt sorry for the caller because it was like watching a bully beating someone up on the playground. I even heard the “very intelligent” Sarah Palin give her support. I guess now this makes it alright!
We are not in a post-racial society. Thank you for letting me vent Abagond!
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Dr. Laura obviously is a racist racist racist., But I don’t get why a black woman would go on her show expect a rational response, given her history.
She sounds like an intelligent woman.. Was she expecting Dr. Laura to not to be completely insensitive and ignorant?
I see this “color-blindness syndrome” adopted and bought in by some people of color given America’s history to be extremely destructive. All it does it allows for this racist rhetoric and practices to go unchallenged.
I feel it will only get worse.
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I understand the position that the caller, Nita Hanson, was in, because I’ve been in it before. Some whites think that if you are in a relationship with/married to a white person, you automatically cosign everything whites do, or are less apt to call them out when they do wrong. But unlike, Mrs. Hanson, upon learning that my SO’s friends used the n-word (when I was out of earshot), I sat them down and told them why that was not acceptable. Of course they tried to use the “But Chris Rock/Jay-Z uses it” excuse, but I explained to them the difference (although I didn’t give black entertainers a pass either) and in the end they said “Okay, sorry” and indeed looked very sorry.
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The woman is a fool and so blood rude how she treated the lady on the phone.
I really don’t understand why a lot of white people are so butthurt about not being able to say it and get away with it like they did before. It’s a loss of one little priviledge I mean do they stay up at night looking up towards the sky and crying that they can’t say it. I don’t use it in my day to day life.
That whole “but they do it too.” is so bloody childish how old are you?
Oh and let’s be real for a moment, if black people did not say it at all do you really think white people wont?
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Kim x Olivia:
Good point: apart from the n-word, when was the last time that conservative old white people used rappers as a model for their behaviour? I do not know if Dr Laura herself has ever condemned rappers, but Judge Robert Bork, for example, certainly has – in “Slouching Towards Gomorrah” (1996).
From what I see whites, particularly older, more conservative whites, use rappers not as models for their own behaviour but as an excuse to stereotype ALL BLACKS as being just like them, as being people who, in their natural state, are ill-mannered, immoral, oversexed and incapable of speaking Standard English.
So the argument of “If Jay-Z can say it, I can say it too” does not ring true.
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I think dr Laura is going senile here. When I was living in States I never ever used the N word. Not that I was thinking politically correctly at all (or still do), but I knew perfectly well all the connotations that it carries among the black population. I mean, why not use the real original term also dr Laura? Like, you know, “hi slave! How you’re doin tonight slaves?” Bezeesus what a moron…
I had black friends who used it while talkin, even if I was there, but I was never thinkin: hey, these dudes use it so then can I! Hey, whatssup N*****? My friend Steven would have reminded me is a split second why it is not only wrong to use this word but why it can be a health hazard too, and also why black athletes dominate the heavy weight class in professional boxing.
I think it was Dave Chapelle who explained this thing well in one his interviews, why it is ok for a black comedian use it and why it is not so okay for a white to use it. I think dr Laura lives in a coocoo land if she thinks that it is ok for a white husband talk like that front of her black wife. But I also wonder why this black wife does not kick his husbands arse with some very sharp pointy shoes. They are fashinable too!
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G-Ball:
At first I did not want to post on Dr Laura: she was not saying anything new, her racism seemed to be clear as a bell to everyone, even to white people, and I felt it would be taking her too seriously. But, yes, hearing the whole thing her rant is a treasure trove of racist tropes that just came spewing out of her mouth like they had been bottled up just waiting to come out. The n-word is just the beginning of it.
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Jess said:
“The thing that the media overlooks is that many of us black people don’t like other BLACK people to use the n-word either.”
Right, there are plenty of blacks who think it is wrong for ANYONE to say. Jade among them.
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I don’t like that Dr. Laura’s apology doesn’t deal with the real issue.
[audio src="http://download.premiereradio.net/prnftp/drlaura/2010/08/Dr%20Laura%20Apology%2008-11-10.mp3" /]
She’s not making sense. She seems to think that her only flaw was in fully articulating the N—- word 11 times on the air. Yet she still clings to the fiction that she was somehow making some valid “philosophical point,” that her use of the N—- word inadvertently detracted from.
So, in essence, what she is saying is that her repeating of the N—- word on air was a regrettable public offense, but somehow, the original use of it, by a Black woman’s White in-laws, against her, was totally acceptable! If Dr. Laura felt compelled to apologize for using the word, then why shouldn’t the lady’s husband have had to?
What Dr. Laura is unwilling to admit is that SHE WAS WRONG—OBVIOUSLY AND COMPLETELY WRONG.
She now wants this to be about her judgement in repeating the “taboo word” instead of about her endorsement of it’s use by other White people against a Black woman.
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I agree with EVERYONE who said this is total bullsh*t; Dr. Laura knew exactly what she was doing. But there’s an essential point, which is as disturbing as the racism in Dr. Laura’s comments, that people seem to have missed. In telling Jade that she is hypersensitive for objecting to her husband’s family and friends using the n-word in front of her, Dr. Laura is also condoning a man allowing his family and friends to disrespect his wife! To use the b-word analogy, if his family and friends had used that term to his wife and she was white, I flat guarantee Dr. Laura’s response would have been entirely different. Apparently, Dr. Laura feels not only is using racial slurs alright, abusing black women is acceptable behavior as well. Or it may be she feels that black women in interracial relationships deserve to be abused for stepping out of their places.
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I understand the point that Abagond was making with his post, however, I think there are some subtexts to this story that need to be explored, besides the issue of the “N” word.
I must first say that I do not make a habit of watching/listening to Dr. Laura, since doing so turns my stomach and makes me want to puke. I have only viewed her program a few times in the last few years.
To me, the other issue here is that basically Dr. Laura is saying that it is “Ok” for this woman’s husband to allow his family to abuse and degrade his wife. Since she supposedly gives “relationship” advice, I find it hard to imagine even Dr. L suggesting that that a woman should just tolerate such abuse and suck it up, and get a sense of humor, that she is just being “oversensitive.”
To me, the question should be, would Dr. Laura give the same “advice” to a white woman who’s white husband was allowing his family to abuse and degrade his wife? Somehow I have a hard time imagining that scenario. Instead, I can see Dr. L advising the lady to kick his a**.
But perhaps Dr. Laura believes the standard is different if the woman in question is black.To me, the issue is not about the “N” word, but about the human worth and value of a black woman. Dr. L is effectively telling her listeners/viewers that black women (or at least those who step out of “their place” by marrying white men) DESERVE to be abused and degraded.
She is devaluing and degrading black women. After all, in the old racist lexicon, isn’t a black woman not “really” a woman in the same sense that that white women are? Aren’t they just supposed to “take it”? Who are they to expect their husband to protect them? (especially their white husbands)
I mean, aren’t black women “supposed” to be the property of white men, to use and abuse however they choose? Doesn’t she exist to serve him? So, if he wants to allow his family to verbally abuse her, more power to him, according to Dr. Laura.
Looks like Dr. Laura is pining for the “good o’le days” when most black women would have been at her beck and call, cleaning her house, cooking her food, nursing her babies, and enduring any insults and abuse that she would dish out, and serving as her son’s “concubine.” But in today’s world, she fears she has been knocked off her “white-woman pedestal” and that her son’s “concubine” could become her daughter-in-law and the mother of her mixed-race grandchildren. I think this is the real reason for Dr. L’s deranged exposure of her true racist colors.
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Bye the bye,
The “southern White Woman” is my best friend and we just can’t stay away from this blog!
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I do’nt think whites are entirely upset that they cannot say it, but that they are being TOLD, NOT to say it. They are used to being the ones who demand and tell people what, how and when. This is new territory for them.
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Great post, TheSouthernWhiteWoman! !!!@17:58:36/82210
Excellent points!
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@SouthernWhiteWoman
couldn’t agree with you more.
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The people who tend to argue for “the right to use the n-word” are notorious racists. See: The Tea Party, anyone on Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, etc.
This “trend” of white racists trying to “flip” the imaginary “race card” they believe black people use is tired.
Often these people have the same trite and false arguments:
1. Why can black ppl use the n-word but not whites.
2. Black people are more racist these days than white people.
3. Black rappers and comedians used the n-word, but whites can’t.
4. I am not racist, I have black friends.
5. Society is too politically correct/sensitive.
6. Black people only voted for Obama because he’s black (notice how is argument is never used for white people who voted for Reagan). It’s because it stems from the belief that they (whites) are somehow more knowledgeable voters than blacks, and they (whites) vote on the [common sense] issues, while blacks are borderline illiterate voters, who vote based on emotion, race and who offers more welfare.
It’s condescending, at best, and racist and ignorant at worst.
PS. Obama got the same percentage (range) of black votes that Bill Clinton, Al Gore and John Kerry got.
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blakgenius and southernwhitewoman are perfectly right–the real and overlooked issue here is that a husband failed to defend his wife. I’m certainly old fashioned, but Jade’s husband was simply not on his primary jay oh bee as a husband.
With regard to the “n-word,” I’m old enough to have had the experience of hearing group of whites behind me yell, “Get that niggah!” and have to run for my life.
Let me clear one thing up: Southern whites hollering “Get that niggah!” did not pronounce the “r” either, in “nigger” or any other word. So there’s no difference in meaning just because the “r” is omitted.
It’s not an unusual thing for people to use a slur among themselves and yet be offended if it’s used by an outsider. Jeff Foxworth can call his wife a redneck in public, but I’d certainly better not do it in front of him. A resident of West Virginia can call himself a hillbilly–but I’d better not do it. Mexican-American comedians say “beaner” all the time–but Jeff Foxworth had better not.
When I was in Hawaii, I would hear whites refer to themselves as “haoles” (“alien, stranger, outsider”), but little white kids would burst into tears when called that. Interestingly, “haole” is the only slur I’ve ever seen have the same level of offensive effect on white people.
It’s sad that white people are so angry over not freely using that word. They don’t seem to mind not using “heeb”–even though there is even a Jewish magazine on the stands called “Heeb.” That’s about the only slur they seem upset to be banned from using. Why is that? (That’s a rhetorical question, btw.)
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Now that she’s quit her show, it will be interesting to see if she becomes an “out of the closet” racist.
Great post!
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I’m curious about the caller’s Husband. Does he have an opinion on all of this. Doe he want to tell his side of the story. Does he want to leave his wife now?
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It sounded to me that Dr. Laura’s real beef was with Jade being married to a white dude in the first place. Her repititon of the word N*gg*r was indirectly calling Jade a N*gg*r. As in how dare some uppity N*gg*r b*tch marry one of our men! His friends are calling her a N*gger*r well that’s what she gets for her miscegenous ways.
Dr. Laura wasn’t having some philosophical arguement. She and every other racist white person who is itching to unleash N*gg*r knows precisely its ugly past and why they shouldn’t say it. Nobody’s confused. They need to miss me with that bullsh*
Laura was speaking for the white, male conservative patriarchy who is angry because their divine right to insult their inferiors (women and minorities) has been taken away. Their dominence has been questioned by the whole multicultural PC movement.
By the way, white people can say the word all day long if they want to. They just better be ready for the consequences.
@joe clyde I hope that Jade wants to leave her lilly livered husband, who surely must be a racist too to just sit there and let his friends insult his wife.
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@RDKirk,
I don’t think white people are so angry about not being allowed to use that word. Really, that whole business about “well, blacks use it” is simply an excuse. It is the equivalent of children who are caught doing something they shouldn’t, pointing the finger at another child and saying, “But he’s doing it too! Why can’t I?” Grown white folks just aren’t that stupid. That’s pretended ignorance. However, younger people, children and teenagers may genuinely become confused about that and think it is “ok”. White adults know better.
Having said that, I hate to hear blacks call each other that. I understand the “reasons,” but on another level, it just doesn’t sound “right.” I have a friend who refers to himself incessantly that way, and I hate it. After Obama was elected president, I asked him not to call himself that around me anymore. He has stopped, which is a relief.
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@poetess,
I agree with you about Dr. L’s real beef being that Jade was with a white man. I wonder what her advice would have been to her if her husband had been a black man who was allowing his family to insult and abuse her.
As for her husband, if he’s not a racist, he certainly is a weak, weak man and an outright coward. That’s not always the same as racist, though I think most racists are cowards at heart. I doubt Dr. Laura would have been hollering the “N” word if she was driving through the “hood” after all. It’s “safe” to do on the radio. No one’s too likely to bust her up side her head. Of course…it can have other consequences…but clearly she thought she was exempt from that.
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I don’t go calling gay people queer even though there are homosexuals who use queer as a term of endearment. If I had any self-respect for myself and common decency, I simply don’t say it. I can only control myself and what comes out of my mouth.
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Like they are just bursting with racism and cannot help themselves or something.
perfect!
i swear i think dr. laura was getting them in. Looking at her face and hearing her voice as she said the n-word over and over again tells me she was in ectasy. I pretty sure she her panties were wet as she said the N-word for the 11th time.
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I am Jewish and Jews sometimes use the word yid or yidden (plural) affectionately. However, when a non-Jew says it it is nearly always derogative.
I feel bad for Jade. Of course she shouldn’t have to put up with racial slurs. And what about plain good manners? What if Jade were fat and they were always teasing her about that, would that also be acceptable according to DL?
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You can NEVER EVER reform the DEVIL.
Dr Laura’s slurs are not the real issue, the issue is that her slurs take place against a backdrop of systemic and institutional racism. And that backdrop–of housing and job discrimination, racial profiling, unequal health care access, and a media that regularly presents blacks in the worst possible light makes insults, a lot bigger than what they are. We black people are WELL AWARE that the slurs used against us, are often the tip of a much larger iceberg.
With white people there is no let- up in their evil, brutality and murder. White people DELIGHT in mistreating black people. The one thing that will hold black people back is some of our people’s belief in whites as a people of divinity. They beg the enemy even for friendship, which is like the frog pleading to the snake not to swallow him after the snake has gotten him in his mouth.
—
The EARTH – The WHOLE 196,940,000 square miles of earth, of which 57,255,000 square miles is land and 139,685,000 square miles is water, weighing 6 sextillion tons, travelling at a of speed 10371/3 miles per hour – All of it, EVERY last bit of it, BELONGS to the black man.
—
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That’s why I will NEVER……..EEEVER……hook up with a white man. Just like someone said before. Just because you are marry/date white people does’nt mean they wont/don’t say racial slurs when your not around. I’ve known this to happen before on the job. A white woman married to a black man, have two kids by him, and talk mad junk about black people behind their back. Using the “N” word, saying black this, black that. See……..SMH. And I remember reading this blog made by a black woman PRAISING white men. Lawd ham mercy. smh
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I would not judge all white men/people by one white person. That’s similar to whites who have crimes committed against them by black men then conclude that all black men have criminal tendencies.
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I’m a black woman married to a white man and I can tell you this. If MY husband let his relatives and friends talk to me like that, we would not be married. With that said, I still think Dr. L beat up on Jade BECAUSE she is married to a white man. I also want to point out that I had black boyfriends before I married my husband and their families didn’t disrespect me, some of them did. Jade’s husband disrespect was indirect; my ex-boyfriends’ disrespect was ‘in your face’. Either way she and I, both of us black, were disrespected. Black women often get disrespected by men of ALL races. In the words of Alice Walker, “Black women carried the burdens that eveyone else refused to carry.” And that includes white women. Dr. L’s mean b*tch act was in essence disrespectful AND racist. It was disrespectful of Jade’s pain and it was disrespectful of her right to marry whom she pleased while still being treated decently. I agree with my friend ‘The Southern White Woman’ I wonder if Dr. L would have gone there if Jade and her husband had both been black.
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It’s worth saying that Dr. Laura is pretty obnoxious to everybody. She’s arrogant, and insistent, and superior, to anyone who calls and doesn’t take her words as absolute truth and guidance.
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There is a danger going overboard there.
A man should be able to marry a woman , without marrying the whole race she’s coming from, and vice versa.
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blakgenius says,
I’m a black woman married to a white man and I can tell you this. If MY husband let his relatives and friends talk to me like that, we would not be married. With that said, I still think Dr. L beat up on Jade BECAUSE she is married to a white man. I also want to point out that I had black boyfriends before I married my husband and their families didn’t disrespect me, some of them did. Jade’s husband disrespect was indirect; my ex-boyfriends’ disrespect was ‘in your face’. Either way she and I, both of us black, were disrespected. Black women often get disrespected by men of ALL races. In the words of Alice Walker, “Black women carried the burdens that eveyone else refused to carry.” And that includes white women. Dr. L’s mean b*tch act was in essence disrespectful AND racist. It was disrespectful of Jade’s pain and it was disrespectful of her right to marry whom she pleased while still being treated decently. I agree with my friend ‘The Southern White Woman’ I wonder if Dr. L would have gone there if Jade and her husband had both been black
laromana says,
blakgenius, thanks for your excellent analysis of the Dr. L. RACIST/ANTI-BW attack against Jade. It was CLEAR that Dr. L. took advantage of Jade’s legitimate marriage relationship question to DISRESPECT/DEGRADE/DEMEAN her BECAUSE she is a BW.
Many have said that Jade was “partially to blame” because she chose to ask Dr. L. a question but I DON’T agree. Like ANY other listener, Jade had a right to ask Dr. L. ANY question and EXPECT to receive a RESPECTFUL answer, NOT the ENTITLED WB—H ACT she was subjected to.
I’m so sick and tired of seeing this type of ANTI-BW RACISM directed at BW by men and women of ALL RACES in EVERY part of American society/culture/media for NO OTHER REASON than the women are Black and they believe they’ll get away with it.
This incident clearly demonstrates the need for a BW ANTI-DEFAMATION LEGAL ORGANIZATION. Due to the institutionalized ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that is/has ALWAYS been a fundamental part of American culture, BW/PRO-BW ADVOCATES have to use legal/legislative methods (as well BOYCOTTS of ANTI-BW FILMS/MEDIA/MUSIC/COMPANIES-THEIR PRODUCTS) to DESTROY it.
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For those black women (and men) married/dating white people, how do you know whether your man/woman is using the “n” word or any other racist words when you’re not around? Just because Jade husband’s friends and family scream n word this and n word doesn’t mean he wont use it. This has happen before. I’ve seen this many times on my old job. Being married to white people doesn’t mean he/she is not racist or has used racist epithets. That’s why I can’t and wont see myself dating or marrying a white man. Especially a white man.
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…And futher more. When Jade appeared on CNN and other news channels discussing this, where the hell was her husband? I havent seen here husband speak in her defence against what Dr. laura said. I say the man is a coward. If you really love your wife you’re gonna be there to support her. Sit by her side. I didn’t see that.
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denise says,
Being married to white people doesn’t mean he/she is not racist or has used racist epithets. That’s why I can’t and wont see myself dating or marrying a white man. Especially a white man.
And futher more. When Jade appeared on CNN and other news channels discussing this, where the hell was her husband? I havent seen here husband speak in her defence against what Dr. laura said. I say the man is a coward. If you really love your wife you’re gonna be there to support her. Sit by her side. I didn’t see that.
laromana says,
Although I agree with what you’ve posted about how non-Black spouses of BP need to be ready to defend their spouses from ANTI-Black RACISM and how those who don’t are cowards, I also strongly CONDEMN the MANY BM who PUBLICLY CONDONE/PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM.
A MAJOR reason BW are STILL being DEMEANED/DEGRADED/DISRESPECTED by EVERYONE in American society is because MOST BM either SILENTLY CONDONE/PUBLICLY PROMOTE ANTI-BW RACISM in music/media/culture.
If ANTI-BW RACISTS were being ACTIVELY CONFRONTED/CONDEMNED by MOST BM, BW would be treated with more RESPECT in American society.
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denise,
“For those black women (and men) married/dating white people, how do you know whether your man/woman is using the “n” word or any other racist words when you’re not around?”
If you examine a person carefully before entering into a serious commitment with them, like I did, you understand their mindset. I think maybe Mrs. Hanson didn’t observe her husband and his family too closely. If she had, she would have noticed these tendencies earlier on. Racist tendencies make themselves known if you pay attention. And casual acquaintances are one thing, but if even the family is acting the way she described that is a serious red flag; those are the people he grew up around and his first teachers.
Personally, if my SO or anyone in his immediate family used the n-word I’d be very surprised. That is just not them at all and I know them very well. They get uncomfortable even at the slightest hint of bigotry. Simply because they are white doesn’t mean they use the n-word. Don’t get me wrong: lots of whites are racist. But plenty of white people don’t say that word and it’s not fair to assume that because they are white they must have to say it.
“Being married to white people doesn’t mean he/she is not racist or has used racist epithets. That’s why I can’t and wont see myself dating or marrying a white man. Especially a white man.”
Like I said, this is confirmation bias. There are lots of black women married to white men that don’t have Mrs. Hanson’s complaints. So you hear about one situation like this and assume they are all this way? That’s setting up a person to fail and it’s very much like how whites think concerning blacks. They see one or two people who confirm their stereotypes and conclude that they were right all along.
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I wonder what would have been the response of many people if Dr. Laura Schlessinger was a black woman and Jade (the caller) was white. I bet everyone would immediately assume and accuse the black woman of being bitter and with a bad attitude stemming from the fact that black women hate to see black men with white women. No one rushed to this conclusion (I believe) because Dr. S is a white woman and the thought of a white woman being jealous of a black women seems pretty far-fetched for most people when in fact I bet it happens quite often, especialy concerning interracial relationships between white men and black women or other women who are not white.
I also will go out on a limb and speculate that if this woman was white and her husband black, this man would have been defending his wife so hard that they would have had to call the cops on him! Have you noticed how overprotective black men are over their women when they are in interracial relationships? They would go jail if someone disrespected their wife. There is a huge difference here — white men usually shrink away and hide like they are ashamed. This is from a black woman that has been involved in interracial relationships, but mind you has never experienced the disrespect that Jade experienced.
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C’mon G-ball… Now why would a Black woman be callin’ Dr. Laura an N—– word?
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Blakgenius said
In the words of Alice Walker, “Black women carried the burdens that eveyone else refused to carry.” And that includes white women.
Menelik replies:
as a Black woman married to a white man, I’m curious as to how you cannot see the irony in YOU (as well as Alice Walker) using this particular quotation.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Denise said:
For those black women (and men) married/dating white people, how do you know whether your man/woman is using the “n” word or any other racist words when you’re not around?
Natasha W replied:
If you examine a person carefully before entering into a serious commitment with them, like I did, you understand their mindset. I think maybe Mrs. Hanson didn’t observe her husband and his family too closely. If she had, she would have noticed these tendencies earlier on. Racist tendencies make themselves known if you pay attention.
Menelik says:
I think you’ll find that historically the most racist act a white man could commit against a Black woman was to insert his penis inside her vagina. Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!
Of course, we can deny this fact if we like (and some of us will) but you’ll never find a Jew denying their Holocaust, and fighting with other Jews to that end.
Never!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Yes, there are racist Whites that get involved with Black people. Let’s just say cognitive dissonance is their best friend. They somehow don’t see their Black partner as like the “rest of them” even if that rest includes their partner’s immediate family. But it’s also up to the Black partner to properly vet that person and set their own boundaries as to what is a dealbreaker for them. For many Blacks who date interracially it is a dealbreaker for their non-Black partner to ignore, deny, minimize or victim-blame for their loved ones’ racist attitudes and behaviors.
But not every interracial relationship between Blacks and Whites is fraught with these issues. Some Whites actually do enter these relationships with their eyes wide open and realize they’re going to have to pull their racial weight as a couple. That means defending their partner against racist attacks from loved ones. I also expect their Black partners to defend their White lovers from the wrath of any of their Black family members too. I’m not saying you CHANGE these folks’ attitudes. This is not about winning hearts and minds. But it’s not asking too much to tell them to stifle that shit while the person is around.
Like Natasha W, I wonder how much vetting Jade did of her husband before they married. These types of issues don’t just crop up after marriage. Was he like this beforehand? Did she witness this? If so, why’d she think it’d get better after marriage? If she didn’t because they weren’t around “his people” much or at all during courtship, why didn’t she ever question that? If she did and he mentioned they were racist or a bit backwards when it came to Black people, why didn’t she delve more into that? If they’re planning on having kids eventually, she needs to be able to count on him defending his non-White children from his kinfolk and friends as well.
I also agree with Natasha that not all Black women partnered with White men have that complaint. Many of us have let our partners know BEFORE marriage that we expect to be defended against their ignorant relatives and we expect to do them the same courtesy with ours.
Menelik Charles:
Back in the day, most interracial sex between White men and Black women was coerced if not rape. Nowaday, Black women have the power to choose our sexual partners. Many of us have chosen White men and we don’t feel sullied or in any way demeaned by having adult, consensual sex with White men of our choosing.
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@ Witchsistah,
wrong! Sexual assaults on Black women were RACIST attacks upon an enslaved, and oppressed, people! And this “power” to “choose” white men as partners is hardly an informed one if a Black female descendent of institutionally raped slave women judges her potential ‘choice’ on whether or not he, or his family, uses racial epithets in their presence lol
Menelik Charles
London England
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Witchsistah said:
like Natasha W, I wonder how much vetting Jade did of her husband before they married. These types of issues don’t just crop up after marriage. Was he like this beforehand?
Menelik replies:
unlike Natasha W I have little doubt that Jade is an assimilated, colour-blind, sista who was grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb.
Why do you see fit to attach a level of consciousness, and self-respect, to a woman who clearly has very little? I mean, she did phone Dr Laura for advice, right? A Black woman phoning a white woman about a problem of race created by white people? How naive was that?
Just crazy!
Menelik Charles
London England
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G-Ball,
“I also will go out on a limb and speculate that if this woman was white and her husband black, this man would have been defending his wife so hard that they would have had to call the cops on him! Have you noticed how overprotective black men are over their women when they are in interracial relationships?… There is a huge difference here — white men usually shrink away and hide like they are ashamed. This is from a black woman that has been involved in interracial relationships, but mind you has never experienced the disrespect that Jade experienced.”
Please note that you’ll rarely see a white woman defend her black husband either. See Henry Gates Jr.’s wife, Van Jones’ wife, etc. However, you see white women defend their white husbands.
But my SO has always supported me and had my back. I wouldn’t expect any less. As has every other guy, white, black, or other, that I have been involved with. Not doing so is grounds for dismissal in my book.
I think that Mrs. Hanson’s husband may be hesitant to say anything since it was his negligence that prompted her to call in the first place. He has already been branded a racist coward and being accused of racism by blacks is a very quick way to shut up many a white person. The alternative is that he is really as nonchalant as she portrays him, in which case I am still wondering what she is doing with him.
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Menelik Charles,
“I think you’ll find that historically the most racist act a white man could commit against a Black woman was to insert his penis inside her vagina. Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!”
“unlike Natasha W I have little doubt that Jade is an assimilated, colour-blind, sista who was grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb.”
Okay, I’ll try to say this as nicely as possible.
I don’t want to hear anything from black men about my relationship or any other black woman involved with a white man. No, really, I don’t.
Why? Because there is serious hypocrisy coming from some. Black men have an interracial marriage rate to white women that is double the rate of black women to white men. Yet, no one, I mean no one brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women. As if white women haven’t committed their share of cruelties in this country. Instead, people celebrate these unions.
This bringing up of white slave masters has absolutely nothing to do with caring about the wellbeing of black women and has everything to do with blacks not wanting to be “disrespected” by black women being in relationships with white men and keeping black women in their place.
Also, neither my SO nor any of his ancestors had anything to do with slavery and its horrors considering the fact that they weren’t even in the U.S. until the mid 1900s and are not from a country that was involved with the slave trade. Unfortunately, he’s look at with suspicion and ire due to the fact that he shares a phenotype with those that did commit these atrocities, which is quite unfair, but so the story goes.
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Menelik Charles,
I was not speaking of Black women pre-Civil Rights. I am speaking about Black women NOW who have the power to consent to ANY sexual relationship we engage in. That includes those with White men. I don’t see at all how it is automatically “rape” if a White man and a Black woman are having a sexual relationship or if they have sex once. If both parties are adults, sane and consenting, there is no rape.
You treat Jade as though she were a child who has no business to make her own decisions about her life because she’s not living it the way you want her to. Or as if she were mindless and the proof is her having married a White man. I’ve heard that often from Black male nationalists who want to believe that Black women are mindless robots and it’s just a matter of who is whispering in our ear as to what we feel, think and believe. To them, it’s just a matter of THEM being the ones doing the whispering. Or as I’ve been propositioned by a few, that the power of the great, Black male penis will literally fuck me into surrender and make me a decent, obedient, pliable sista for Black men’s use only though.
Believe it or not, Black women today DO have minds of our own and can make our own decisions in life. We are not grown fuckable children in need of guidance and dominance from a Black “daddy” or from a White one either (or any color). And yes, many of us will make decisions about OUR lives that you and others like Dr. Laura, do not approve of.
But from your posts, you’d probably judge Black women like me and Natasha W as “assimilated” and “color blind” and “grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb” and as race traitors. Knock yourself out. No one is leaving their husband because Menelik Charles doesn’t like his color or the fact they’re together.
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Let’s see who do I start with?
Denise said:
“For those black women (and men) married/dating white people, how do you know whether your man/woman is using the “n” word or any other racist words when you’re not around? Just because Jade husband’s friends and family scream n word this and n word doesn’t mean he wont use it. This has happen before. I’ve seen this many times on my old job. Being married to white people doesn’t mean he/she is not racist or has used racist epithets. That’s why I can’t and wont see myself dating or marrying a white man. Especially a white man.”
My response:
We don’t know that our SOs aren’t using racial slurs behind our backs any more than you know if your SO is calling you a nagging b*tch behind your back. If you don’t want tio date/marry outside your race, that’s your business and I resoect your right to make your own choices, but don’t try to cloak that choice in the pretention that it’s because all white men MIGHT be racist, After all, men of every race MIGHT be wife beaters. Should we all go off men because of that?
Denise also said:
“And futher more. When Jade appeared on CNN and other news channels discussing this, where the hell was her husband? I havent seen here husband speak in her defence against what Dr. laura said. I say the man is a coward. If you really love your wife you’re gonna be there to support her. Sit by her side. I didn’t see that.”
My response:
This, I COMEPLETELY agree with.
Natasha W said:
” I don’t want to hear anything from black men about my relationship or any other black woman involved with a white man. No, really, I don’t.
Why? Because there is serious hypocrisy coming from some. Black men have an interracial marriage rate to white women that is double the rate of black women to white men. Yet, no one, I mean no one brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women. As if white women haven’t committed their share of cruelties in this country.”
Witchsistah said:
“I was not speaking of Black women pre-Civil Rights. I am speaking about Black women NOW who have the power to consent to ANY sexual relationship we engage in. That includes those with White men. I don’t see at all how it is automatically “rape” if a White man and a Black woman are having a sexual relationship or if they have sex once. If both parties are adults, sane and consenting, there is no rape.
You treat Jade as though she were a child who has no business to make her own decisions about her life because she’s not living it the way you want her to. Or as if she were mindless and the proof is her having married a White man. I’ve heard that often from Black male nationalists who want to believe that Black women are mindless robots and it’s just a matter of who is whispering in our ear as to what we feel, think and believe. To them, it’s just a matter of THEM being the ones doing the whispering. Or as I’ve been propositioned by a few, that the power of the great, Black male penis will literally fuck me into surrender and make me a decent, obedient, pliable sista for Black men’s use only though.
Believe it or not, Black women today DO have minds of our own and can make our own decisions in life. We are not grown fuckable children in need of guidance and dominance from a Black “daddy” or from a White one either (or any color). And yes, many of us will make decisions about OUR lives that you and others like Dr. Laura, do not approve of.
But from your posts, you’d probably judge Black women like me and Natasha W as “assimilated” and “color blind” and “grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb” and as race traitors. Knock yourself out. No one is leaving their husband because Menelik Charles doesn’t like his color or the fact they’re together.”
My respomse:
Girls, Y’all need to get outta my head; there ain’t enough room in here for all three of us.
the Southern White Woman said:
“As for her husband, if he’s not a racist, he certainly is a weak, weak man and an outright coward. That’s not always the same as racist, though I think most racists are cowards at heart. I doubt Dr. Laura would have been hollering the “N” word if she was driving through the “hood” after all. It’s “safe” to do on the radio. No one’s too likely to bust her up side her head. Of course…it can have other consequences…but clearly she thought she was exempt from that.”
My response:
Now there are four of us in here. My head is going to explode.
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Oh, dear God. Here we go with the “institutional rape” thing again.
People, almost ALL women, everywhere in the world, were to one degree or another coerced into sex with partners who usually were not of their own choosing.
African slavery of AFRICANS was largely based on reproductive coercion. European marriage was based on reproductive coercion. It was legal to rape your wife in the U.S. up until the 1970s. It was legal to KILL her in defence of honor in Brazil up until the 1990s.
So this “institutional rape of black women by whites” versus the supposedly free and egalitarian relationships between the genders enjoyed by blacks is complete and utter nonsense.
More black women have been raped by black men, historically, than by white men. Just like more white women have been raped by white men. In fact, under slavery, it was far more common for whites to “breed” slaves by choosing their mates for them than it was for whites to rape slaves.
If you SERIOUSLY think that the relationships of rape and violence of the 19th century are a logical reason for you to not date any “descendants of victimizers” today, then ladies, you should all be lesbians and the men here should all be celebate.
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Natasha and Witchsistah,
Seconded, thirded, fourthed and fifthed. The idea that partners should support one another is a no-brainer, and there are people (of all races) who neither give that kind of respect nor demand it for themselves. I think Abagond’s post got to the heart of the matter when he speculated on what Dr. L would say if Jade said her husband’s friends were calling her a b*tch–the issue was name-calling, so the answer should’ve fit across different examples. She may have to make some tough decisions regarding her husband’s unwillingness to defend her, but it would stand to reason that she’d be in the same situation if she were married to a Black man who called her a b*tch all of the time. The actions of her husbands friends put an already negative situation in a racialized context, but that doesn’t diminish the fact that any name-calling situation is generally negative.
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Witchsistah says,
You treat Jade as though she were a child who has no business to make her own decisions about her life because she’s not living it the way you want her to. Or as if she were mindless and the proof is her having married a White man. I’ve heard that often from Black male nationalists who want to believe that Black women are mindless robots and it’s just a matter of who is whispering in our ear as to what we feel, think and believe. To them, it’s just a matter of THEM being the ones doing the whispering. Or as I’ve been propositioned by a few, that the power of the great, Black male penis will literally fuck me into surrender and make me a decent, obedient, pliable sista for Black men’s use only though.
Believe it or not, Black women today DO have minds of our own and can make our own decisions in life. We are not grown fuckable children in need of guidance and dominance from a Black “daddy” or from a White one either (or any color). And yes, many of us will make decisions about OUR lives that you and others like Dr. Laura, do not approve of.
But from your posts, you’d probably judge Black women like me and Natasha W as “assimilated” and “color blind” and “grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb” and as race traitors. Knock yourself out. No one is leaving their husband because Menelik Charles doesn’t like his color or the fact they’re together.
laromana says,
Witchsistah, thanks for your excellent response to ANTI-BW LIES/MYTHS/STEREOTYPES being promoted by MANY BM.
The OUTRAGEOUS HYPOCRISY of MOST BM when it comes to BW in IRR’S is breathtaking. These kind of BM need to be reminded that who BW choose to love, date, and marry is NONE of their business.
NO BM has the RIGHT to tell BW who they are “allowed” to be with or ANYTHING about how to live their lives period.
What MOST BM SHOULD be doing is LEARNING how to RESPECT the HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY of BW-the women who BIRTHED/RAISED them.
NO other RACE of men BUT MOST BM PUBLICLY CONDONES/PROMOTES ANTI-BW RACISM in American media/music/culture.
These BM should be ASHAMED of their OBVIOUSLY IGNORANT/WARPED/SELF HATING ANTI-BW RACIST mindset, instead of sticking their noses in BW’s relationships.
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Laromana,
I’ve had that that sexist, patriarchal, Black nationalist rhetoric directed at me for a good 20 years now due to MY dating choices (meaning, I MAKE them, no one makes them for me). I’m sure it’s been around much longer than that.
And it’s the same ol’ ish too! Black women should stay with Black men only (while Black men have every right to “taste the rainbow”). Black women who partner with non-Black men, especially with White men are race traitors (Black men are just exercizing their perogative when they date/sex interracially though). Black women who partner with non-Black men, especially with White men are doing it because we couldn’t find a Black man/no Black men wanted us (I guess, if no Black man wanted us we were just supposed to be alone even if we wanted a relationship or simply to get laid every now and then). Black women who date interracially are doing so to try to escape anti-Black racism (while Black men are doing it for some revolutionary reason). Black women who date interracially are somehow doing it because we’re feeble-minded and too easily influenced by modern, Western culture and truly believe that Whiter is righter and therefore need a big, Black dick to fuck us back into “right thinking (but Black men who date interracially somehow are NOT being influenced by a racist-sexist beauty standard)” and somehow “cure” us.
Thaddeus,
You’re telling us that like it’s new information. Many of us are women, and we do know that many women have been coerced into having sex they don’t want. Many of us have actually gone through that.
Plus, the nature of being a slave is constant coercion, the first being coerced into slavery. Throughout history, slave women and men have been at risk for sexual exploitation and abuse. We also already knew that under American slavery, Black women were often forced to have sex with Black men to “breed” them. And we also know there were a few stable relationships between White men and Black women.
We also know that intraracial rape is far more prevalent than interracial rape. We also know that acquaintance rape is far more prevalent than stranger rape.
But all of your “Well, they do/did it TOOOOOOO!” finger-pointing still doesn’t erase the fact that White men did often rape Black women under American slavery AND Jim Crow and that Black women’s bodies were marked as not theirs, that Black women were simultaneously seen as ugly, undesirable, asexual, hypersexed and able to trap any poor, innocent White man with her promise of uninhibited, animalistic sex. Even if a Black woman was not continually raped by a White man, she knew she was ever vulnerable to it.
And yes, I do understand that American Black women were/are not the only population of women that was/is vunerable to sexual exploitation, abuse or rape.
But we’re talking about it because 1) some of the posters here brought that up and 2) because part of the objection and vilification of CONSENTING, ADULT romantic/sexual relationships between Black women and White men is often based on this past of gendered violence directed at Black women from White men pre-Jim Crow (and depending on where you live in America, Jim Crow is NOT that far in the past at all. Plenty of living witnesses still around).
And you seemed to miss the part where I and a few other posters are saying that applying the coercive conditions of most sexual interaction between BW and WM pre-Jim Crow to post-Jim Crow consenting sexual interations between the two groups is erroneous.
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Natasha W,
Not only do some Whites think that if you’re in a relationship with a White person who co-sign everything Whites do, but so do many Black people.
There’s also the idea that you MUST be putting up with all sorts of racist shenanigans from your partner (after all, ALL Whites are virulent racists who can’t wait to act it out and who better than a “captive audience”) and therefore must not mind putting up with it from other White people. It’s like White guys who figure you’ll fuck them too since you’re already fucking one of them.
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blakgenius and SouthernWhiteWoman,
Y’all both hit the nail square on the head!
I think Dr. Laura got set off because this lowly Negress had the NERVE to tell her that her hubby was a White man! She was letting that lil ni88er bitch know what her “place” was and it was DEFINITELY not as the legal spouse of a White man! Who did this darkie wench think she was? And that just set it ALL off!
SWW, you’re right. Dr. Laura WAS pinin’ for them “good ol’ days” where the most a BW could be to a WM was his sex slave. The idea that BW could and would be treated like a viable romantic/marriage partner, i.e. able to compete with WW for mates, done rattled her cage but good.
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Witchsistah,
“There’s also the idea that you MUST be putting up with all sorts of racist shenanigans from your partner (after all, ALL Whites are virulent racists who can’t wait to act it out and who better than a “captive audience”) and therefore must not mind putting up with it from other White people.”
True. But I can honestly say that the issue of race (in regards to our relationship; we discuss race otherwise) rarely comes up. It’s just not that interesting. Our biggest issues are that he is perpetually late, I am always early; he is a night owl, I am an early bird; and he is dreadfully messy and I am (kind of) neat. Those probably cause way more issues on a daily basis than him being white and me being black.
“It’s like White guys who figure you’ll f*ck them too since you’re already f*cking one of them.”
Uh, don’t get me started on that one. An interesting phenomenon…
I do have to scratch my head and wonder why Mrs. Hanson thought it appropriate to ask a white woman about race issues she was having with her white husband. Does she not know how the typical white woman reacts to this dynamic? I mean, where does she live? She has to know. I learned long ago not to mention my SO being white to any white woman, even “friends”. They will be all happy and smiling when you tell them your romantic stories, but when you mention that one detail, you see their face change. And if they ever see him and note that he isn’t an Eminem wannabe, but a white guy they might date themselves… all bets are off.
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Natasha W,
What? You mean Black women aren’t the only ones who get their panties in a bunch at seeing one of “their” men with a woman from another ethnicity? I thought we horrid Black women were the only ones who did that. To hear white women tell it they are totally fine and okay with it so why can’t we Black women get with the program?! Oh, I’m just shocked. White women pissed that a white man could actually be interested in a Black woman?! No way.
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I do have to scratch my head and wonder why Mrs. Hanson thought it appropriate to ask a white woman about race issues she was having with her white husband. Does she not know how the typical white woman reacts to this dynamic? I mean, where does she live? She has to know. I learned long ago not to mention my SO being white to any white woman, even “friends”. They will be all happy and smiling when you tell them your romantic stories, but when you mention that one detail, you see their face change. And if they ever see him and note that he isn’t an Eminem wannabe, but a white guy they might date themselves… all bets are off.
I was wondering that myself. Dr. Laura is not known at all for her tolerance and sensitivity. And she’s a known right-winger.
I tell potential WW friends that my husband is White upfront because if I’m going to have to eliminate them, I want to hurry up and get it over with. But yes, I’ve experienced the same thing with many WW once they find out my husband is White and not a K-Fed reject. Their faces change and so does their behavior towards you. You either start getting a bunch of passive-aggressive comments and digs or just frozen out.
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[…] Another more comprehensive critique of the situation–Abagond […]
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@Witchsistah
You’re telling us that like it’s new information. Many of us are women, and we do know that many women have been coerced into having sex they don’t want. Many of us have actually gone through that.
I`m telling it to the people who obviously haven`t thought of the ramifications of this situation and who very obviously think that sexual exploitation of women was an exclusively white on black deal. If you don`t fit that description, you need not be worried.
But all of your “Well, they do/did it TOOOOOOO!” finger-pointing still doesn’t erase the fact that White men did often rape Black women under American slavery AND Jim Crow and that Black women’s bodies were marked as not theirs…
It is not meant to. It is meant to give a pause for thought to those people who feel that today`s sexual relationships needs must be defined by yesterday`s sexual injustice. I thought I made that point blindingly clear. Apparently not.
And you seemed to miss the part where I and a few other posters are saying that applying the coercive conditions of most sexual interaction between BW and WM pre-Jim Crow to post-Jim Crow consenting sexual interations between the two groups is erroneous.
What makes you think I`m talking to you and a few other posters? I thought the target of my point was also blindingly clear. Again, apparently not.
Dr. Laura is not known at all for her tolerance and sensitivity. And she’s a known right-winger.
You don`t miss much, do you Witchsistah?
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Thaddeus,
No you did NOT make it “blindingly clear” whom you were addressing with your post, especially since you have a tendency to argue with anyone who dares criticize White racist behavior unless said behavior is so extreme as to be undeniable even to said racists. And I mean you criticize ANYONE, not just the resident Black nationalists here.
As for your attempt at a dig at me, I was addressing Natasha W, which I clearly indicated. So why don’t you follow your own advice and not worry about it.
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And the whole deal of focusing on Dr. Laura’s use of said “n-word” x amount of times is like focusing on the fact that a man used a baseball bat to beat his wife. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees!
I’m not at all surprised Dr. Laura’s a racist. That’s more like a “DUH!” to me. What I’m surprised at is that she lost such complete control with little to no provocation! One would think such a tirade would only spew forth after much pushing, prodding, hell shoving! But all it took was for a Black woman to dare to call and state her husband was White and she was experiencing racial abuse at the hands of his loved ones (she didn’t even castigate those people, not that she got a chance to) and it was off to the races (literally AND figuratively) for Dr. Laura. The savageness of her attack on the woman was out of all proportion. This was no instance of “the Black person MADE me do it/PUSHED me to it.” One would think someone with Dr. Laura’s educational and cultural knowledge would keep that in check if for no other reason than to protect her image.
That is, unless the person was itching not only to use said word but to tell off an uppity ni&&er, which Dr. Laura apparently was. So it wouldn’t and didn’t take much for Dr. Laura to go there.
To me, the hurtful part was not Dr. Laura’s using the n-word at the caller (while being careful not to call the woman that directly which showed she knew what she was doing), but when she told the caller that if she were so hypersensitive about race then she shouldn’t have entered an interracial relationship. Basically, Dr. Laura told the BW that’s what her uppity Black ass got for thinking she was good enough for a WM and that she deserved to be treated with respect by other Whites. Right THERE, Dr. Laura made her intentions and views known.
That’s why I don’t blame “Jade” for not accepting Dr. Laura’s apology and not contacting her even though Laura asked her to. Dr. Laura is now trying to save face and get “Jade” in as her prop. “See, the darkie has forgiven me. Now why don’t you?!” And yes, ol’ girl only apologized cuz she got busted. But she busted herself. This wasn’t some private conversation or comment that got leaked to the press. This was shit she knowingly said OUT LOUD and ON THE AIR. She’s just mad that there are Americans, especially White Americans (because she didn’t think Whites would find what she said as at all problematic because in her mind they all think just like she does. In her mind, she was just saying what each and every White American sincerely thinks and feels) who strongly objected to what she said AND did to that woman.
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mochasister,
“What? You mean Black women aren’t the only ones who get their panties in a bunch at seeing one of “their” men with a woman from another ethnicity? I thought we horrid Black women were the only ones who did that. To hear white women tell it they are totally fine and okay with it so why can’t we Black women get with the program?! Oh, I’m just shocked.”
It is shocking isn’t it? I mean, it’s only us insecure black women who care about things like that, according to black men and white women who date interracially. Nope, they don’t have a problem with the opposite pairing at all.
Witchsistah,
“I tell potential WW friends that my husband is White upfront because if I’m going to have to eliminate them, I want to hurry up and get it over with.”
Ha, I might need to start doing that. It would save a lot of time. But right now I just let them assume he’s black. Especially if it’s someone I know I have to deal with on a regular basis… He’s not subtle at all though; good thing he’s self-employed. He has the most gigantic picture of my face as his desktop background and two pictures of me on either side of the computer. I can’t even imagine the reactions if he had a desk job working with other people.
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Natasha,
Interestingly, the only people I’ve ever heard speak out against BW/WM and BM/WW relationships were Black women (under the guise of “Black people should stick together”). I may not agree, but at least it’s a consistent position.
He has the most gigantic picture of my face as his desktop background and two pictures of me on either side of the computer.
That is so cute! 🙂
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No you did NOT make it “blindingly clear” whom you were addressing with your post, especially since you have a tendency to argue with anyone who dares criticize White racist behavior unless said behavior is so extreme as to be undeniable even to said racists. And I mean you criticize ANYONE, not just the resident Black nationalists here.
I have a tendency to argue with anyone who uses empty rhetoric and dogma to criticize any human behavior, Witchsisstah. If people use dogma as a crutch for their thinking, I`m happy to kick it out from under them. And because many people here think about white folks in only the most stereotypical and dogmatiic terms, I end up kicking a lot of crutchs out from under those who think criticism is simply mouthing rhetoric.
But seeing as how I was specifically and clearly criticizing those who think yesterday`s evils needs must define today`s intimate realtionships – and seeing as how you don`t fit that description, methinks there was just a wee bit of knee-jerking going on when you took my comments as directed against you.
As for your attempt at a dig at me…
It wasn`t an attempt: it was a dig, fllat out. I appologize. I just couldn’t resist because on the one hand, you were saying this tremendously obvious thing and on the other it seemed to be that you were going to great lengths to dig out imaginary meanings from my comments to MC.
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So what’s people’s position on WW/BW and BM/WM relationships?
Funny how this only seems to be a heterosexual thing here.
I`m asking because Im just back from a major conference on gender where this topic came up repeatedly.
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Menelik said:
I think you’ll find that historically the most racist act a white man could commit against a Black woman was to insert his penis inside her vagina. Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!
“unlike Natasha W I have little doubt that Jade is an assimilated, colour-blind, sista who was grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb.”
Natasha W replied:
I don’t want to hear anything from black men about my relationship or any other black woman involved with a white man. No, really, I don’t.
Menelik replied:
two things, Einstein; first, Jade herself made her relationship a public matter, therefore permitting public commentary from anyone with an opinion on the matter; second, I don’t ever recall commenting on your relationship. Do you?
Natasha W said:
no one, I mean no one brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women.
Menelik replies:
you should be extremely careful what you say, lady!!!!!!!! Not only can I bring up links proving you completely wrong, it is an historical fact that Black mothers have traditionally warned their sons to steer clear of white females of all ages. You didn’t know this?
Lol
Natasha W said:
as if white women haven’t committed their share of cruelties in this country.
Menelik asks:
you talk in divisive terms, girl! Whatever crimes white women were party to impacted on all Black people. Remember that!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Ah, yes! The good old pathetic fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy
Reify and personify an abstract concept – “white people” – and ascribe to it individual agency. Apply it as a trans-historical and trans-social actor (i.e. it doesn’t matter if a Jewish or Slavic woman’s ancestors came to the States after the Civil War and weren’t considered “white” when they came: they, too, somehow magically participated in slavery, perhaps via a time machine or a remote control device, because they are NOW considered to be white – by you).
Now, based on this ahistorical reification and personification, claim that one is correct to be prejudiced against an entire class of people today because they are essentially all the same as your personified reification of them as a historical social agent (don’t forget to cover your ass by saying that “They’re not ALL that way, just most of them, including every single one of them who disagrees with me or inconveniences me in any way”).
Next step: claim that people you don’t even know (whose RL interests you can’t even fathom and who probably wouldn’t even like you if they knew you) should, in fact, be in political and moral lock-step with your prejudices. Castigate these people using street-corner psychology and empty political rhetoric if they persist in disagreeing with you.
Extra points if the people you are castigating belong to yet another identity group (in this case women) which has an equally solid claim against historical and contemporary hate and prejudice coming from the group you belong to (men).
Way to go, MC!
Sh**, if I was a woman, I’d be VERY leary about men in general. And if I happened to find one I trusted and who respected me, I’d hang onto him no matter what his color was.
But no, MC, you obviously thinks that good guys are a dime a dozen out there and you’d like to see color-coordinated couples because that appeals to your sense of historical justice. And that, of course, is far more important than the happiness of the people involved.
Nice.
You won’t agree with this, MC, but you are essentially arguing that black women’s sexuality is not and should not be their property. You believe that it should rightly be the social property of some group.
In essence, then, your position is not far off from that of the male slave-owners you castigate. Your basic disagreement with those dead white guys isn’t whether or not black women are property, but who should own them.
Old Massa Charlie believed that black women were his private property (and he believed this about his own wife and daughters too, btw). You, MC, enlightened pan-africanist that you are, believe that women’s bodies should be the property of some sort of political community, and that you, in your enlightment regarding these issues, are an adequate representative of the African diaspora in this regard.
How nice.
145 years after the end of slavery in the U.S. we STILL can’t see black women as individuals who have a right to do as they wish with their bodies.
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Menelik,
“two things, Einstein; first, Jade herself made her relationship a public matter, therefore permitting public commentary from anyone with an opinion on the matter; second, I don’t ever recall commenting on your relationship. Do you?”
I said mine or any other. Don’t play dumb. Unless you’re not in fact playing, which I highly suspect.
Also, calling names shows your excellent skill with rhetoric! That is always your first line of defense, I’ve noticed. Call names. Because your arguments stand on one leg and they need another. I have to give it to you — you’re the Einstein here.
“Not only can I bring up links proving you completely wrong, it is an historical fact that Black mothers have traditionally warned their sons to steer clear of white females of all ages. You didn’t know this?”
Provide your links mentioning those cases. I’ll be waiting… this should be interesting.
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Menelik can say whatever he wants, Thad. I doubt there are any black women here taking his black nationalist BS seriously.
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Witchsistah says,
But all it took was for a Black woman to dare to call and state her husband was White and she was experiencing racial abuse at the hands of his loved ones (she didn’t even castigate those people, not that she got a chance to) and it was off to the races (literally AND figuratively) for Dr. Laura. The savageness of her attack on the woman was out of all proportion. This was no instance of “the Black person MADE me do it/PUSHED me to it.” One would think someone with Dr. Laura’s educational and cultural knowledge would keep that in check if for no other reason than to protect her image.
-That is, unless the person was itching not only to use said word but to tell off an uppity ni&&er, which Dr. Laura apparently was. So it wouldn’t and didn’t take much for Dr. Laura to go there.
-To me, the hurtful part was not Dr. Laura’s using the n-word at the caller (while being careful not to call the woman that directly which showed she knew what she was doing), but when she told the caller that if she were so hypersensitive about race then she shouldn’t have entered an interracial relationship. Basically, Dr. Laura told the BW that’s what her uppity Black ass got for thinking she was good enough for a WM and that she deserved to be treated with respect by other Whites. Right THERE, Dr. Laura made her intentions and views known.
laromana says,
Witchsistah, again, thanks for your excellent, on point analysis of the Dr. L RACIST, ANTI-BW incident.
If anything “good” came out of this UGLY episode, the revelation of the WW ANTI-BW-WM IRR RACISM dynamic is it.
In an (American) society that has HISTORICALLY elevated WW’s beauty/femininity to the highest level while, at the same time, DEGRADING/DEMEANING/DISRESPECTING BW’s beauty/femininity, it’s not surprising that MANY WW think they’re “better” than BW and that BW couldn’t possibly be “attractive enough/good enough” for a WM to SERIOUSLY love/date/marry.
It’s high time that EVERYONE learns the truth about MOST WW in America who think they should be able to love/date/marry ALL men of EVERY RACE but that BW SHOULDN’T enjoy the same “PRIVILEGE” (ANTI-BW RACISM at it’s best).
In my lifetime, I’ve seen MANY American WW go out of their way to STRONGLY DISCOURAGE their sons from marrying BW.
Because MOST of these American WM were ANTI-BW COWARDS, these WW’s RACIST, ANTI-BW tactics have been VERY effective at keeping BW and WM apart.
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Jasmin,
“Interestingly, the only people I’ve ever heard speak out against BW/WM and BM/WW relationships were Black women (under the guise of “Black people should stick together”). I may not agree, but at least it’s a consistent position.”
Right. I’m not looking for a person to agree with anything I do or say. But at the very least, have the same rules for both sexes. This is what many blacks that disagree with interracial relationships don’t have.
I’ve never met any black woman in real life who spoke out against BW/WM (except some older black women from the South, which is understandable). But I have met several online.
“That is so cute! :-)”
It’s embarrassing!
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@ Thaddeus,
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!
Lol
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Menelik replies:
it is an historical fact that Black mothers have traditionally warned their sons to steer clear of white females of all ages. You didn’t know this?
I agree with this statement. There was an old saying in my fathers generation where black men were told by their black mothers “if she cant use your comb, dont bring her home”. This was a warning for black men to stay away from white women. In this day and age there are still black women who dislike at the idea of their son bringing home white women.
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@Natasha,
you talk absolute bollocks and bluster; making statements you cannot support with any evidence, and doing so in a high ‘n’ mighty fashion, to boot!
At best you’re irritating, at worst you’re offensive. Challenging historical facts is pointless. And yet you, a Black woman see fit to make the following statement:
“no one, I mean no one brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women”.
Menelik replies:
“no one, eh? Certain, are you? Do think I can provide links, eh? Like I say, girl, I find you as offensive as would a Jew confronted with another Jew denying the holocaust!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik,
“you talk absolute bollocks and bluster”
This coming from someone who made this comment? v
I think you’ll find that historically the most racist act a white man could commit against a Black woman was to insert his p*nis inside her v*gina. Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!”
LOL! Please, stop now. You’re making yourself look foolish.
“… making statements you cannot support with any evidence, and doing so in a high ‘n’ mighty fashion, to boot!”
Now you are accusing me of being you? You might want to step away from the mirror for two seconds. Just two.
Btw, still waiting on those links. I do think it’s funneh when commenters making empty rhetoric, such as saying they can provide links proving someone wrong, and then don’t do so… because they can’t.
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Natasha,
I’ve only met women who feel that way online too–sometimes I wonder if they have the Internet on Mars! 😛
On another note, I’ve met some Black men who complain about Black women “hating” on their relationships with non-Black women, yet seem irritated when they encounter Black women who just don’t care. I’m like, which one is it? 🙄
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Natasha W said:
NO ONE, I mean NO ONE brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women.
Menelik replies:
you should be extremely careful what you say, lady!!!!!!!! I can bring up links proving you completely wrong.
Natasha W said:
Btw, still waiting on those links. I do think it’s funneh when commenters making empty rhetoric, such as saying they can provide links proving someone wrong, and then don’t do so… because they can’t.
Menelik replies:
check the comments section here:
http://thefreshxpress.com/2009/08/interracial-dating-if-white-men-dont-care-why-should-we/
and the article here:
http://blackconsciousthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-men-im-beginning-to-loose-respect.html
humble pie, anyone?
Menelik Charles
London England
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I’m down with this sista:
I stand alone here but I stand proud and unbowed!
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Menelik,
FINALLY, you searched Google and found some articles!
Let’s see here:
“check the comments section here:
http://thefreshxpress.com/2009/08/interracial-dating-if-white-men-dont-care-why-should-we/“
This one flies. Great Googling. You get a B+ in Computers 101 (points off for taking nearly the whole day to find it).
“and the article here:
http://blackconsciousthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-men-im-beginning-to-loose-respect.html“
This one doesn’t fly because the blogger specifically states that she doesn’t have any problems with interracial relationships, thus she wasn’t using that as her opposition against them.
But my point still stands. You found one instance of this. There are millions of instances of the opposite. Of course when I said “no one” that doesn’t mean literally, no single person ever (There is at least one instance of anything you could possibly imagine). It just means very, very, very, very rarely, which you’ve just proved is the case since you only found one.
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Jasmin,
“On another note, I’ve met some Black men who complain about Black women “hating” on their relationships with non-Black women, yet seem irritated when they encounter Black women who just don’t care. I’m like, which one is it? :roll:”
I’ve met those types too. My thinking on this is: they love that some black women care about their relationships. It makes them feel loved and wanted. They only complain about it in order to bring up the topic thus drawing attention, once again, to how they are apparently so desirable and noteworthy that they can get a non-black woman and black women are still fawning over them. IOW, it’s all ego, fragile ego.
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Natasha W said:
NO ONE, I mean NO ONE brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women.
Menelik replies:
you should be extremely careful what you say, lady!!!!!!!! I can bring up links proving you completely wrong.
Natasha W said:
Btw, still waiting on those links. I do think it’s funneh when commenters making empty rhetoric, such as saying they can provide links proving someone wrong, and then don’t do so… because they can’t.
Menelik replies:
check the comments section here:
http://thefreshxpress.com/2009/08/interracial-dating-if-white-men-dont-care-why-should-we/
and the article here:
http://blackconsciousthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-men-im-beginning-to-loose-respect.html
humble pie, anyone?
Natasha replies:
FINALLY, you searched Google and found some articles!
Let’s see here:
“check the comments section here:
http://thefreshxpress.com/2009/08/interracial-dating-if-white-men-dont-care-why-should-we/“
This one flies. Great Googling. You get a B+ in Computers 101 (points off for taking nearly the whole day to find it).
“and the article here:
http://blackconsciousthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-men-im-beginning-to-loose-respect.html“
This one doesn’t fly because the blogger specifically states that she doesn’t have any problems with interracial relationships, thus she wasn’t using that as her opposition against them.
Menelik replies:
now this is why you have an IQ score of 169 and I don’t!!!! I just can’t, for example, figure out the time difference between the US and the UK!!! It’s nearly 11-15 at night here; what time is it over there?
So I took “nearly the whole day”, eh? Let me see: work; travel from work; dinner with partner; out again to put daughter to bed…and then retrieving relevant links on my memory stick! No google search required!!!!
Natasha W said:
NO ONE, I mean NO ONE brings up the Emmitt Tills or Scottsboro Boys of American history as reasons why black men should not be involved with white women.
Menelik replies:
you really don’t do humble, do you, girlfriend?
Natasha said:
But my point still stands. You found one instance of this.
Menelik replied:
but apparently not even one example exists of someone calling out the likes of Emmitt Till as a means of shaming Black men into staying away from white women …remember?
And, of course, I provided two links, one of which you attempt to discount on the basis of the blogger apparently having no problem with mixed-race relationships. Hmmm, don’t they all say that, darling?
Lol
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Mira
This woman is not a fool or unintelligent. She knew exactly what she was doing. She’s not even one of those “colour blind” racists who don’t think about their stereotypes. She is racist in the simple & obvious sense of the word and she doesn’t try to hide it.
Exactly. It’s sociopathy.
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You won’t agree with this, MC, but you are essentially arguing that black women’s sexuality is not and should not be their property. You believe that it should rightly be the social property of some group.
In essence, then, your position is not far off from that of the male slave-owners you castigate. Your basic disagreement with those dead white guys isn’t whether or not black women are property, but who should own them.
Old Massa Charlie believed that black women were his private property (and he believed this about his own wife and daughters too, btw). You, MC, enlightened pan-africanist that you are, believe that women’s bodies should be the property of some sort of political community, and that you, in your enlightment regarding these issues, are an adequate representative of the African diaspora in this regard.
How nice.
145 years after the end of slavery in the U.S. we STILL can’t see black women as individuals who have a right to do as they wish with their bodies.
Thaddeus,
You’ve hit it on the head right here.
Basically we’re coming from the assumption that 1) Black women are HUMAN and 2) therefore we have the right to agency and 3) therefore we own our own bodies and can determine what we will individually do with said bodies and 4) that includes with whom we wish to share them.
I and others have been repeated that nowadays, in America at least, BW CHOOSE whom we’ll engage in sex with/have a sexual/romantic relationship with. And for many of us, White men are very viable options. But that’s falling on some deaf ears here.
Oh and you keep saying that someone believes “that women’s bodies should be the property of some sort of political community.” Yes, they do, if “political community” = Black men.
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Why in God’s name do you think I seek “community” with those who do not seek it with me? I don’t get it! You’re writing your own narrative here, darling lol
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Let me make plain what I mean by “community”: a group which communicates. A political community is a group which communicates and which shares political power (or attempts to affect it) to some degree.
It seems to me to be VERY clear, MC, that you have, in your rhetoric, established black people worldwide as a political community, however lightly connected and however vague.
And it seems to me tha you are saying that there is a “politically correct” position within this community with regards to women’s sexuality; to wit, they should refrain from sharing it with people of a certain color.
You are thus quite clearly saying that women’s bodies should not be controlled by their own goals, desires, what have you but by some sort of socio-political entity – one which you see yourself as a member of.
So let’s put it damned simple, so you can understand it: you think that black women’s bodies should rightly be controlled by a black political community.
This is what I’m getting out of your posts. If that’s not the case, then please explain what your position is.
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Thad,
my comments are subject to moderation, and my most recent response to a certain individual has been removed. I shall, therefore, no longer be participating in this debate with two, three, or more people, when certain people on her are permitted the right to post totally dishonest assertions without censorship.
That said, I’m sure you’re a deliriously happy individual, who could eat me for breakfast. My suggestion? Go find some other loser ‘debate’ – I’m done!
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[Shrugs]
Hey, I’m not the guy trying to figure out who should be sleeping with whom, man: you are.
If you want to give up that argument, fine by me. The less of that crap cluttering up the intertubes, the better, imho.
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First of all, she is certainly racist and I disagree with her “philosophical points”, but to me her use of the word nigger is arbitrary. I was too young to notice when the word nigger became so vile that one could not actually say it, but had to reference it as “the n-word”, but it’s been true my whole life. If she had said the n-word instead of nigger it still would have come out as ignorant, but for some reason you can’t actually say it or even type it. There’s certainly a difference between simply saying the word and explicitly using it as an insult but in PC land it is the word which must not be actually said, like a Harry Potter villain. I personally am careful in my use of the word because i’m not entirely socially retarded, but I still find it silly. I certainly get why black people don’t want to listen to whites use it casually, but to place a ban on the actual word itself is an example of hypersensitivity in our culture. Instead of applying appropriate sensitivity and reasoning to a situation, we must overreact in the most PC way possible.
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So, do you think Dr Laura deserves Barbara Bush Award?
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And yes, ol’ girl only apologized cuz she got busted. But she busted herself. This wasn’t some private conversation or comment that got leaked to the press. This was shit she knowingly said OUT LOUD and ON THE AIR. She’s just mad that there are Americans, especially White Americans (because she didn’t think Whites would find what she said as at all problematic because in her mind they all think just like she does. In her mind, she was just saying what each and every White American sincerely thinks and feels) who strongly objected to what she said AND did to that woman.
Really? There are?
Anyways…I maintain that the mere thought of Nita Hanson’s marriage makes my flesh crawl.
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There are, Ankh though they may be few and far between. I’m married to one.
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Really? There are?
Me, for one. Get over your dogma, Ank.
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Separated at birth?
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To Herneith , she looks better than Michelle Obama!
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Witchsistah said on 26th August:
like Natasha W, I wonder how much vetting Jade did of her husband before they married. These types of issues don’t just crop up after marriage. Was he like this beforehand?
Menelik replied:
unlike Natasha, I have little doubt that Jade is an assimilated, colour-blind, sista who was grateful to render her race and colour redundant; first via her marriage to a white man, and second, via her womb.
Why do you, Witchsistah, see fit to attach a level of consciousness, and self-respect, to a woman who clearly has very little? I mean, she did phone Dr Laura for advice, right? A Black woman phoning a white woman about a problem of race created by white people? How naive was that?
Witchsistah said:
You treat Jade as though she were a child who has no business to make her own decisions about her life because she’s not living it the way you want her to. Or as if she were mindless and the proof is her having married a White man.
Menelik replied:
I treat her as a child; how so? I merely referred to her as an assimilated sista with low self-esteem. I never hated on her, her husband or Dr Laura, for that matter. The tone and temperament of my posts re Jade were completely calm…unlike
Witchsistah said @ Ankhesen Mié’s blog on 28th August
girl, I’ve been wondering about “Jade”‘s ass since I first saw the transcripts of the interchange between her and La-La. I’ll just copy/paste what I said on LJ’s “interracial” forum:
Now, I’m wondering about the sistah who even BOTHERED calling La-La’s ass. Between her bullshit hubby and appealing to La-La, she sounds like one of those PoC that value White approval over any and everything. They will drink WP’s dirty-ass bathwater instead of clear water from a PoC’s stream.
I’m sure her hubby wasn’t some great defender of hers and then just shut the hell up after the wedding. I’m sure there was some racial fuckery going on before the vows…
Menelik asks:
you know, you speak of Jade as though she were a child? Just saying!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik Charles,
But then you widened your net to implicate ANY BW in a relationship with a WM. If she’s with a WM, she’s a sellout, case closed. To you and Dr. Laura, how Jade’s husband is treating her is simply how any and all WM would treat their Black wife.
I’m coming from a standpoint of no, it’s not. I’m coming from a standpoint of Jade could have chosen any unattached woman-loving man she wanted. Hell, she could have chosen from any unattacted Black woman-loving White man she wanted. Why did she SETTLE for a dude that won’t even stick up for her with his nearest and dearest? I and many other BW are with WM that do stick up for us and don’t think they’re doing us a huge favor in doing so. What was up in her head that she chose him?
And since you like to snatch and grab my comments from various places off the Internet to try and tell me a thang or two you should have grabbed these as well:
As you well know, I’m married to a WM, and BEFORE we married, I vetted his ass and sussed him out. I was WAITING for him to act a fool too like all the others had. But it didn’t happen. He actually did what he said he was gonna do and stood up for me to his family, even not talking to a whole side of ’em because of their views on interracial marriage. AND he presented me to his smart family as if I were a rare jewel he was lucky to get with the definite undertone of “If you want to see me again, you’ll fuckin’ act right to and around her!”
…
Hell, I,…could have gone up to her and said, “Sista, now you know good and damn well [I] don’t care what color man or woman you date. It ain’t like [I] can spout any ‘stay with your own kind’ ish. But DAMN! You GOTS ta get a better selection process. That mofo ain’t standing up for you. And NO, that is NOT natural! Nor is it something we can’t expect our White partners to do. [Mine defends] and stand[s] up for [me] because [he is]happy and PROUD to be with [me] and SHOW it! But yours ain’t, and that’s a problem NOW! Forget ‘going to be’ one!”
NO WHERE have I said, or implied that Jade’s problem was that she married a WM in the first place or that’s what she gets for being with one. NO WHERE did I imply she should have stayed with “her own kind.” I was questioning the rationale of her selection process of THAT PARTICULAR WM, not of WM in general.
Believe it or not, you CAN be partnered with a White person withOUT believing that White people are the Second Coming.
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And I also said, “When it comes to love, folks are just gon’ hafta bust they own ass,” because no matter how much you want to tell folks what to do and how to run their lives, or how much advice you give them, they’re going to do what THEY want, no matter how pissed you get or how wrong you think they are or how clearly you can see the oncoming train wreck.
Like I also said there, Jade is gonna have to talk to her husband. If dude isn’t going to change, the ball is in her court. She can either suck it up and learn to deal (perhaps standing up for HERSELF for a change regardless of how hubby feels) or she can make the move to leave.
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Witchsistah said:
but then you, Menelik Charles, widened your net to implicate ANY BW in a relationship with a WM. If she’s with a WM, she’s a sellout, case closed. To you and Dr. Laura, how Jade’s husband is treating her is simply how any and all WM would treat their Black wife.
Menelik asks:
could you give me a word, sentence or paragraph, in which I suggests Black women are “sellouts” for marrying out?
I’ll wait.
Menelik Charles
London England
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To Herneith , she looks better than Michelle Obama!
Michelle Obama is thanking her lucky stars for it. Anywho, whats Michelle Obama got to do with Skeletor, er I mean Laura? I just thought it uncanny that Laura bears such a resemblance to Skeletor. Before you get your knickers in a knot, for your information, Skeletor is one of my favourite cartoon characters!
You see it’s like this; The woman calls a radio show complaining that her husband does nothing when friends and relatives use racist epithets and ideology around her. You can substitute him for any type of man that stands by and lets his wife or partner be verbally abused in whatever manner, substitute fat for example. Having a wimp for a husband is not particular to any group, this particular incident, happened have race involved. Her whimp of a husband, instead of telling the offenders to get out of his house, does nothing to defend her.(perhaps he forgot she was black? He sounds dumb) As someone said and rightfully so, she must have had some inkling as to his family’s propensity for such racism before she married him. Remember, when you marry someone, you are also ‘marrying’ their family. Anyhow, the point here is that she was subjected to the word n$gger eleven times for her trouble. As someone else said, why would she call up a white woman to ask this of? On the other hand Laura was simply out of place for hollering the n-word to prove a ‘philosophical point’. The philosophy of what, idiocy? People are evil. They obviously get off on listening to other people’s tales of woe. There is a large industry within entertainment which thrives of this. Who would be entertained by watching or listening to someone else’s troubles and the lunatics who hurl invective at them as a result? If it wasn’t Jade who called this woman, it would be some other dupe who would have been subjected to a tirade. I get the feeling that this woman has done this before on her radio show, though not in regards to solely racial matters. She sure felt comfortable going off on Jade. She is evil personified, Skeletor’s, I mean Laura’s looks match her wickedness. Jade, is probably one in a long line of hapless victims. Suffering appears to be a favourite form of entertainment in the States.
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BNice —
Just like I told someone else on another site that tried to talk about Queen Michelle Obama. She is so ugly that she has one of the best looking, intelligent, rich and powerful men in the world!!!!!
What does you man look like, does he even have job, a grade school education? I doubt it.
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Mrs Obama, like many Black women who keep in shape, gets better with age i.e. sexier, more sensual, and more richly textured skin tones. They age with utter grace. Some Black women in their mid to late 50s are so damned sexy they’d make Beyonce look like a kid wearing her mother’s clothes!
Aged white women, by contrast, have skin like dried porridge in a bowl, lack muscle tone, and possess shrivelled lips. this process begins to kick in as early as their late 20s but is certainly visible by their early 30s.
Yeah, Mrs Obama looks sexy, vibrant and ‘good to go’: no Viagra necessary! I love this mature babe!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Sigh…
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My goodness I thought the harridan was at least 90 years old by the looks of her, but she’s only in her early 60’s. Rather than trying to get attention for her show by attacking gays and Blacks, what the dried up mummy needs to do is go home to her sarcophagus, and apply a thick layer of Capsaicin cream to her legs…face…neck…lips…eye bags…et cetera. Doing so might actually leave her looking more alive than dead, and it’ll certainly give her pause for thought, if nothing else.
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I think you’ll find that historically the most racist act a white man could commit against a Black woman was to insert his penis inside her vagina. Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!
You do not differentiate at all amongst ANY sexual contact White men have with Black women, whether it’s consenting or not. If a WM is having sex with a BW it’s racist. Kind of how some radical feminists believe that any act of heterosexual sex is akin to rape. And I was also speaking of modern BW, those who are dating, sexing and romancing TODAY. And you deny the agency of BW by stating that we’re submitting to rape by consenting to have sex with WM.
And this “power” to “choose” white men as partners is hardly an informed one if a Black female descendent of institutionally raped slave women judges her potential ‘choice’ on whether or not he, or his family, uses racial epithets in their presence lol
It’s called “vetting” and people should do that with every potential partner they meet, especially if they’ve a mind to a serious relationship. Folks judge potential choices using all sorts of criteria; income, physical attractiveness, bedroom skills, shared values and interests, personality, temperament. And different folks have all sorts of dealbreakers. For some cheating is a dealbreaker. You cheat; you’re out period. For others it depends on the relationship, the nature of the cheating, was this the first or the 31st time, etc. Some folks may not care if their partner sticks up for them because they feel they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves and feel since THEY are the ones offended, it’s up to THEM to bring that to the offender’s attention. For some folks, not defending your partner, especially against those closest to you, is a dealbreaker. You’re out.
Jade’s criteria is no more a product of some sort of Svengali action on the part of WM than a man wanting a chick with big boobs means he’s a slave of big-tittied women. She does not have “power” or “choice” in some bs sarcasm quotes. She has power and choice even now in her relationship.
And you claimed your allegiance to Miss “If you’re a BW sleeping with a WM you’re a sellout denying your history and sleeping with the enemy” in that YouTube video. I
Now, you can cease trying to play post gotcha with me here and at Ankh’s site.
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And you claimed your allegiance to Miss “If you’re a BW sleeping with a WM you’re a sellout denying your history and sleeping with the enemy” in that YouTube video. I am so sick of people treating Black people, especially BW who are partnered with Whites as if we were mindless zombies blindly obeying what American society dictates as desirable. If that’s the case then what’s on our partner’s minds. Oh yes, they get to re-enact Roots and Mandingo daily/nightly because that’s what goes on in every Black/White relationship.
And BW get it double because there’s the assumption that not only is her WM partner dominating her racially with his Whiteness but dominating her gender-wise with his maleness. That his Whiteness AND maleness are just crushing the life out of ANY agency she has.
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Well, this is a take on this that I’m pretty sure no one has posted here yet.
First of all, unlike your friends, you don’t choose your relatives, so I’m not sure what is in your power to “alllow” them to do or not. I have racist people in my family and I’m sure all white people do. A very few are full-time sho ’nuff racists. A slightly smaller number are racists who mostly keep their mouths shut but who occasionally let their inner demons out to play. A much larger number are your average clueless white folks, well-meaning, but no idea at all of black history.
Now, I can’t think of anyone in my family who’d use the “n word” or who’d make the comments Jade’s in-laws made. But I can think of a couple who are in support of what’s going on in Arizona and if you ask them why, off the top of their heads they’ll say things like “Because those people will be the majority here unless we do something”. Draw your own conclusions as to who “those people” are.
Yeah, this is racist. No, it’s not specifically directed at my wife, thought it very well could be given that she’s Brazilian as well as black.
So let’s say we’re at a family function at one of my relatives’s or in-law’s places – which we rarely go to because I live in Brazil and they live up there. In a discussion about politics, someone let’s loose a gem like this.
What would you suggest I do? Start a screaming fight? Vow never to set foot in that person’s house again?
Family politics are complicated and not easy to get around, no matter what color you are.
It’s hard to say anything about Jade’s husband without knowing more about the situation.
Now obviously, there’re lines which can be drawn. The guy’s white, he has a black wife AND white friends who are constantly using the “n-word”? Now that’s a problem and he seriously needs to get his priorities straight. He needs to ditch his friends.
But what if he has a pretty reasonable family (like my own) with one or two nutters tossed in the mix somewhere, perhaps as in-laws (again, like my own)? Let’s say he has a brother who’s married to a racist. Should he never see his brother again? Should he not go to important family events because his sister-in-law will surely be there? Of course, his wife doesn’t have to go, but why should she have to stay away when it’s not her that’s the problem?
It’s really easy to come up with nice-sounding, righteous formulas for stuff like this, but harder to figure out what to do in particular situations.
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Oh yes, they get to re-enact Roots and Mandingo daily/nightly because that’s what goes on in every Black/White relationship.
Lol!
Y’know, I really wonder if some of these guys have ever had a long-term relationship. When you’re married, there are infinitely more pressing things to tussle over than abstract social “power” and what one’s ancestors were doing 200 years ago. Things like “Do we need a new washing machine right now?” and “Who’s turn is it to clean the cat litter boxes?”
Sometimes I think this BW/WM male “mandingo” crap is coming out of the mouths of people who haven’t the slightest clue as to how relationships really work.
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Thaddeus,
Thank you! Our priorities now are getting pregnant (we old), socking away enough now so we’re not eating Purina for dinner when we’re 70, getting the house paid off so we’re not sleeping with the rain falling in our faces, getting the house fixed up (after we’ve paid it off). Lesser but more immediate stuff is buying me a copy of 2010 Office Suite so I can get back to writing Trek smut (to the folks this concerns–that’s why I ain’t been doing due diligence), getting a new dishwasher, getting our dog to the vet for her shots and seeing if we can get an Xbox with Kinects so I can do that dancing game and looking into getting a couple of flatscreens. Even less important, he’s in a guild and has a raiding schedule and I really need to get online and level up my Tauren hunter and start a Tauren druid toon and wondering why our dog has been “burying” her dog biscuits in the couch.
Damn, not a teachable moment in the group and horribly mundane and not at all racially “edgy” unless you want to discuss the merits of various WoW races (but fuck you if you ain’t Horde!). Hell, it’s even nerdy.
But for real, fuck you if you ain’t Horde.
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Thaddeus,
No one is saying that the guy needs to change the hearts and minds of his loved ones. It’s not about that. But folks CAN at least TRY to act right and pretend that the non-White person in their midst is a fellow human for at least as long as they are present. Once that person leaves, they can go back to their KKK rally. I don’t think Jade is asking too much of her husband.
Would you let your wife around a (male) member of your family that was a bit “handsy” with the ladies knowing that dude’d definitely make a pass at your wife if he got the chance? Would you tell her sorry, but she was on her own with ol’ boy? Just to knee him in the nuts and oh there’s the red velvet cake! If she came to you and said so-and-so grabbed her butt and squeezed her breast, would you just say, “Oh that’s just so-and-so. Just ignore him?” Or would you have some words and maybe more with him?
And you’d probably would not be after him seeing the light and changing his ways and no longer treating women like his own personal fun house. He’ll just go elsewhere and do the same thing. But you’ll let him know not with THIS woman! Would you avoid any and all family functions this relative was at? Probably not. But you would support your wife in not taking his abuse. You wouldn’t tell her to be nice to him or try to understand him. If anything, you’d tell her to keep her distance from him (like you’d have to!) and to let you know if he even looks squirrely at her.
Well, just like your wife doesn’t have to accept or tolerate sexual abuse from one of your relatives, she doesn’t have to tolerate racial abuse.
There’s this idea that Blacks should just put up with racist abuse because, well, that’s what we get for leaving the house Negro this morning. Sometimes, hell, MOST times, I don’t feel like fielding “Black” questions or being asked “Do ALL Black people” questions because I know no matter how much I stress that I do NOT speak for ALL, MOST or SOME Black people, that I’m JUST speaking for myself, that person will take whatever I say as the definitive Negro statement. I don’t even feel like engaging folks when there’s going to be nothing but a big, bunch of fail. And I don’t feel like being “nice” when bombarded with that.
Oh, and my husband has a racist side in his family. He’s not spoken to them since he married his first Black wife. We don’t miss ’em. The last time I saw them was at his brother’s wedding (fine because his brother married a WW). They stayed on THEIR side of the room and I stayed on mine. I had no desire to say ish to them. But I’m sure if any of them came up to me and said some bullshit, there’d have been consequences and reprecussions coming from him.
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Menelik said:
I think you’ll find that historically the most racist act a white man could commit against a Black woman was to insert his penis inside her vagina. Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!
Witchsistah said:
you do not differentiate at all amongst ANY sexual contact White men have with Black women, whether it’s consenting or not. If a WM is having sex with a BW it’s racist.
Menelik replies:
oh yes I did! I talked about sex between Black women and white men representing the historical rape, and humiliation, of Black females. This is a fact. Deny it if you must; it wouldn’t surprise me! Moreover, I described Jade as assimilated, colour-blind, and lacking self-respect. How was your description of her any different, aside from the vitriol you poured on Jade, her hubby, and Dr Laura?
Witchsistah said:
And you claimed your allegiance to Miss “If you’re a BW sleeping with a WM you’re a sellout denying your history and sleeping with the enemy” in that YouTube video. I
Now, you can cease trying to play post gotcha with me here and at Ankh’s site.
Menelik replied:
oh, so I made some slip up by throwing my lot in with a self-respecting, historically, Black-family loving, sista, eh? Not a chance: my associating with her was obvious, and deliberate! How could it be otherwise, since it was I who posted the link?
Lol
Witchsistah said:
there’s the assumption that not only is the BW’s WM partner dominating her racially with his Whiteness but dominating her gender-wise with his maleness. That his Whiteness AND maleness are just crushing the life out of ANY agency she has.
I am constantly surprised at the stream of racial complaints coming from the mouths of Black women “happily” married to white men. But that aside, I believe many such relationships are, in actual fact, racial alliances (against whom, I wonder?) in which white men are but silent partners, and the reaction to my comments on here pretty much proves my point!
Consider this: we fight one another, and they fuck you (to put it bluntly), I mean, that’s a pretty perverse set up from the ‘get go’, dontcha think? Still, I understand where you guys are coming from, really, I do!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Witchsistah said:
Oh yes, they get to re-enact Roots and Mandingo daily/nightly because that’s what goes on in every Black/White relationship.
Thaddeus said:
Y’know, I really wonder if some of these guys have ever had a long-term relationship. When you’re married, there are infinitely more pressing things to tussle over than abstract social “power” and what one’s ancestors were doing 200 years ago. Things like “Do we need a new washing machine right now?” and “Who’s turn is it to clean the cat litter boxes?”
Sometimes I think this BW/WM male “mandingo” crap is coming out of the mouths of people who haven’t the slightest clue as to how relationships really work.
Menelik replies:
hmmm, and I wonder if you’d ever believe me if I told you that a new washing machine is me and my partners next major purchase. My last purchase, last night, was, in fact, cat litter, and cat food.
Believe it or not!
Menelik Charles
London England
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I am constantly surprised at the stream of racial complaints coming from the mouths of Black women “happily” married to white men. But that aside, I believe many such relationships are, in actual fact, racial alliances (against whom, I wonder?) in which white men are but silent partners, and the reaction to my comments on here pretty much proves my point!
It proves whatever point you have inside your own head. You’ve not said anything I haven’t heard in the last 25 years from BM interested in controlling BW’s bodies and sexuality. If BW don’t toe the line, we’re ignorant of or denying our history; we’re race traitors; we’re sleeping with (fucking because that’s all WM want from us) with the enemy. And now, you use the masculinized BW trope to try to rationalize your prejudices against the relationship. Now BW in such relationships are viragos who have emasculated the WM we’re partnered with. Dude, you keep throwing out accusations and assumptions and hoping SOMETHING sticks. All you’ve shown is BM interested in controlling BW will even use racio-misogynistic anti-BW stereotypes in order to justify vilifying BW and insulting us and the relationships we choose who dare to use their own agency.
We’re not going to come to any agreement as to who owns BW’s lives, BW themselves or the “community” (i.e. Black men) or the nature of our relationships.
We’re done. Do not address me again.
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Lol @ Witchsistah!
There ain’t no girls on the internet, man! You lie! 😀
Our big issues right now are mostly career related, though we’d also like to get going on a kid – if we could be guaranteed a bit of employment security. We’re old, too.
Also, there’s my mother-in-law’s eye-surgery (TODAY), which has about a 20% chance of leaving her blind (please no, God), our cats’ vacinations, working out a better excercise schedule to deal with Ana’s muscle lesion… Any energy we have left over for arguments goes into our work and combined article writing.
But folks CAN at least TRY to act right and pretend that the non-White person in their midst is a fellow human for at least as long as they are present.
That’s presuming that people can even treat fellow family members as humans, which is a big presumption to make, given some families I’ve seen.
Once that person leaves, they can go back to their KKK rally. I don’t think Jade is asking too much of her husband.
Well, if she’s asking him to control the behavior of a bunch of relatives that he may not even be able to stand, it might be asking too much. Asking him to be AWARE of these issues and why Jade might not want to be in the same room with Cousin Bubba – that’s not asking too much.
Would you let your wife around a (male) member of your family that was a bit “handsy” with the ladies knowing that dude’d definitely make a pass at your wife if he got the chance?
I don’t “let” my wife do anything. I would warn her, though, and stand by to see if she needed help.
If she came to you and said so-and-so grabbed her butt and squeezed her breast, would you just say, “Oh that’s just so-and-so. Just ignore him?” Or would you have some words and maybe more with him?
Hard to say, without knowing the rest of the situation. It’s at a family picnic? No doubt I’d have words. It occurs in my 80-year-old Grandma’s hospice while we’re all there on a family visit? That might take some pondering. He’d definitely be hearing about it, one way or another, but maybe not immediately.
Well, just like your wife doesn’t have to accept or tolerate sexual abuse from one of your relatives, she doesn’t have to tolerate racial abuse.
No doubt. But the point isn’t that she should. The question is what does the guy do? Abagond says Jade’s husband “allowed” people to say these things, as if he controlled them or as if he’s supposed to go punch the guy who said it in the mouth. That’s something that might be viable in some circumstances, but not at all family gatherings.
Here’s an example from our life.
I had a very dear 90 year old aunt who was a bit batty, senile and also a typical white Chicagoan gentile racist. When Ana first met the family, everyone told me to warn her about Auntie. “God knows what Aunt Fulana is going to say. She’s not even aware of where she is most of the time.” So I warned Ana. In fact, Auntie was very nice and calm to Ana. Her one slightly barbed comment was, upon hearing of Ana’s PhD, “Well, you must be very smart then”. Everyone breathed a big sigh of relief.
But what if she HAD said something else? What should I have done? Slapped a ninety year old lady in the face? Got up and stormed away angrily from the family?
I wouldn’t have been upset at Ana, however, if SHE had stormed away after hearing a racist comment. However, my wife has a much better grasp of how racism works than I do and it doesn’t include seeing ninety year old wheel chair bound ladies as a big threat to her self-esteem. She’d probably have ignored it and then insisted on never being in a social situation with that aunt again.
(Ironically enough, the money Aunt Fulana left us when she died is being used to pay for my mother-in-law’s eye surgery today, so karma, neh?)
It would be easier if one had a racist “side” to one’s family, but my family is pretty much as non-racist as a bunch of white folks can get except for individual exceptions such as the one I just described – and these are hard to root out or avoid. It’s not like we can just avoid going over to Cousin Clem’s trailer for the holidays, you know?
The last time I saw them was at his brother’s wedding (fine because his brother married a WW).
Hah! See? You still gotta deal with those folks every now and then, at least not kill them at weddings and funerals.
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hmmm, and I wonder if you’d ever believe me if I told you that a new washing machine is me and my partners next major purchase. My last purchase, last night, was, in fact, cat litter, and cat food.
Believe it or not!
And you still SERIOUSLY think that intra-couple politics is somehow replaying the social and historical dramas of 200 years ago?
C’mon, MC. That’s not what makes couples tick – or get ticked off.
And then you say crap like…
I am constantly surprised at the stream of racial complaints coming from the mouths of Black women “happily” married to white men.
Earth to MC, urgent transmission: women complain about men CONSTANTLY, regardless of color (and to be fair men do the same about women). If you think being “happily married” means not griping about your partner, then again, I can only doubt the depth of your personal experience with long-term relationships.
Give it 7 years of buying washing machines and cat litter and let’s see if you don’t start yammering about the stuff your partner does.
This is NORMAL behavior, MC. We complain to our friends about our loved ones and to our loved ones about our friends. I guarantee you that those women go home to their husbands and say “You should hear the whacky s*** my loony black nationalist friends says. Listen to this…”
This sort of griping is what keeps us from killing each other, all and everyone.
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Witchsistah said:
If BW don’t toe the line, we’re ignorant of, or denying, our history; we’re race traitors; we’re sleeping with (fucking because that’s all WM want from us) the enemy. And now, you use the masculinized BW trope to try to rationalize your prejudices against the relationship.
Menelik replied:
you know, you keep throwing up these patriarchal scenarios in which Black men are attempting to control some aspect of Black women’s lives. Fine. Now name one community in the US, or the UK, in which patriarchy does not exist. Just one.
You can, sweetie, it’s really rather simple if you put your mind to it!
Women are being murdered every day across Europe, and America, by fathers, uncles, brothers etc, who wish for them not to be free to date, and marry, who they please, and yet you keep conjuring up this Black patriarchal brute as an opponent of the only group of women in the western hemisphere free of masculine rule within the home!
Why the dishonesty?
Witchsistah said:
now BW in such relationships are viragos who have emasculated the WM we’re partnered with.
Dude, you keep throwing out accusations and assumptions and hoping SOMETHING sticks.
Menelik replies:
ok. Now show me a word, sentence or paragraph, in which I’ve suggested Black women have emasculated white men! I’ll wait. First you say this:
Witchsistah said:
BW get it double because there’s the assumption that not only is her WM partner dominating her racially with his Whiteness but dominating her gender-wise with his maleness. That his Whiteness AND maleness are just crushing the life out of ANY agency she has.
Menelik continues…
and now you say I’m suggesting Black women emasculate white men! “Dude, you keep throwing out accusations and assumptions and hoping SOMETHING sticks”.
Remember those words?
Menelik Charles
London England
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Thaddeus,
you can make as many assumption as you please about my personal circumstances, and history, but really, what do you know, eh?
Nothing.
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Hey dude, I’m not the one making blanket statements about hundreds of thousands – if not millions – of women and what their real motivations are, am I?
Don’t complain to me about presumptions built off of ignorance, MC, when you’re apparently all too happy to make them yourself.
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Complaining? To you? About you? I said you know nothing about me. Fact. You know more about my people as a group than you do about me as an individual. Fact.
Thus, it makes more sense for you to generalise about Black people as a group than it does to generalise or make assumptions about me. Fact. I know more about my people than you do. Fact. Some here will ‘disown’ me, and seek ‘kinship’ with you.
I fully understand, and accept such a stance. No complaints from me, “dude”!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Thaddeus,
Yeah, I had to SEE them as in my eyes physically perceived them. But my husband also understood why I had absolutely zero to say to them and that included his then 80 and 85 year old grandpa and grandma respectively. They at least had enough sense to stay away from me too, so whatever racist-sexist crap they said about me, I didn’t hear.
The closest thing we’ve had to deal with that mirrors Jade’s circumstances was attending his mother’s retirement party. One of his mom’s dippy friends tried to converse with me mentioning that she went to one of “my people’s” weddings and how unhibited “we” are in church. I told her, I had no relatives around those parts (I didn’t, but I knew what she meant). She fidgeted a little in her seat and repeated, “No, you know what I mean.” I looked innocently confused and said, “You mean, Chicagoans? Catholic? Wash. U. alumni?” His mom was beet red and quickly changed the subject. My then boyfriend was trying not to laugh out loud. But I didn’t get any admonishments about how “mean” I was to the “poor, innocent” WW. And he agreed with me that she was a dumbass. He also understands that constantly dealing with so-called ignorant White people is tiring to say the least. And doesn’t fault me for trying to escape that as much as possible.
So no, I don’t think most Black wives are looking for their White husbands to beat down 92 year old Aunt Minnie, but like you said, they should understand and help falicitate their wife not wanting to be in Auntie’s presence when she spouts her KKK credo. But there’s a difference between that and letting folks you’re related think it’s perfectly okay by you to racially abuse your wife and that she should take it. Maybe I’m biased because my husband HAS let people know that wasn’t cool and it didn’t seem such an arduous task for him.
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Witchsistah, you’re a Wash. U. alumna? That was my safety school! (No, just kidding, but I know a few people that have “Wash. U. was my safety school” t-shirts and I think it’s hilarious. 🙂 )
As for the last several comments, all I have to say is WOW. I don’t know if these black nationalist fools really believe the tripe they spout. If they do, they are long gone and I would say it is a perfect exercise in futility to try to debate with them. But this is why I behoove black women to not automatically believe someone is their ally because they have a similar skin color and hair texture (nor automatically presume someone is their enemy because these traits differ from theirs). It’s clear that some are more self-interested and concerned with controlling black women and controlling the image of black men than they are with black women’s physical and mental health. If anyone questions that, they need only review these comments.
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On the flip side, I have a really great story about my dad.
My first wife was also black – at least by Wisconsin standards – or very definitely “of color”. The first time she met my family she came down with the flu and was cranky and sensitive as people generally get when they’re simultaneously dealing with bodily illness and culture shock.
As a “mixed race” couple, we got a lot of covert and not-so-covert stares. Finally, one day when she was running a fever, my ex- couldn’t handle these anymore and started griping: “What the hell are they staring at, huh? What’s the problem? Do I have three eyes or what?”
Without missing a beat, my dad said “Well, we’ve been meaning to talk to you about that…”
“About what?” snarls the ex-, certain she’s going to hear some racist BS.
“Well, it’s kinda embarassing and I don’t know how to put it…” temporizes my dad.
“Just spit it out.”
“Well, OK,” dad says. “It’s like this: our family has such a bad reputation in these parts as car thieves and general ne’er-do-wells that people like to keep an eye on us. So now that you’re married to my son, you’re getting the hairy eyeball too. It’s nothing personal about you, it’s just that they want to keep an eye on us so we don’t still their car stereos while they eat their custard pie in the diner.”
My ex- burst out laughing and the whole situation was nicely diffused, simply by my dad reiterating that she was part of the family and taking the “stigma” of the idiots’ stares as a family problem having nothing to do with her.
Of course, both he and she knew what was really going on, but I’ll always love my dad for knowing just what to say at that moment. It also helped that part of my family really DOES have a reputation as ne’er-do-wells (just not racist ne’er-do-wells) and the ex knew that and my dad knew that she knew that.
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However, my wife has a much better grasp of how racism works than I do and it doesn’t include seeing ninety year old wheel chair bound ladies as a big threat to her self-esteem.
So taking people’s racist abuse is showing you have good self esteem? The more abuse you take the higher your self-esteem? Funny, I was always told it was the opposite. The more abuse you take the better you know how racism works?
How about having the self-esteem to feel perfectly entitled NOT to be racially abused? How about just NOT wanting to deal with it, no, not even from a 90 year old lady (And yes, even old people’s racism has an impact http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100823/ap_on_he_me/us_patient_prejudice )! I love how there’s always this mitigating discussion over how much racial bullshit PoC should eat. How about NONE?
If me not wanting to deal with racist ass people including relatives means I have low self-esteem to some warped logic then I guess I’ll have low self-esteem and protect myself from racist abuse.
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@ Natasha W,
your problem, babe, is that you are officially an intellectual genius…when more objective types visit this blog, and “review the comments” above, they’ll will realise as much!
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Witchsistah,
“You do not differentiate at all amongst ANY sexual contact White men have with Black women, whether it’s consenting or not. If a WM is having sex with a BW it’s racist. Kind of how some radical feminists believe that any act of heterosexual sex is akin to rape. And I was also speaking of modern BW, those who are dating, sexing and romancing TODAY. And you deny the agency of BW by stating that we’re submitting to rape by consenting to have sex with WM.”
Exactly. This “sex/romance between black women and white men represents slavery rape” sentiment is downright bizarre. I shouldn’t even have to explain why.
Meanwhile, by the same logic, why shouldn’t sexual relations between black men and black women be considered rape. After all, there were plenty of instances of black men raping black women, historically (yes, even during slavery), and currently (Dunbar Village, anyone?). If anyone wanted to make a case for black women never being involved with black men again, they wouldn’t have any trouble at all in doing so. But it should be obvious to any rational person that associated a man with those that have done wrong in the past, or currently, based on their perceived physical characteristics is just ridiculous.
“And now, you use the masculinized BW trope to try to rationalize your prejudices against the relationship. Now BW in such relationships are viragos who have emasculated the WM we’re partnered with. Dude, you keep throwing out accusations and assumptions and hoping SOMETHING sticks. All you’ve shown is BM interested in controlling BW will even use racio-misogynistic anti-BW stereotypes in order to justify vilifying BW and insulting us and the relationships we choose who dare to use their own agency.”
Please note: a certain commenter on this post has used anti-BW stereotypes in the past on this blog and other blogs. Including the aforementioned “desmasculinizing” stereotype. That this person throws out supposed compliments towards “dark-skinned black women” here and there confuses black women into thinking they are an ally of black women when this person is nothing of the sort.
“And BW get it double because there’s the assumption that not only is her WM partner dominating her racially with his Whiteness but dominating her gender-wise with his maleness. That his Whiteness AND maleness are just crushing the life out of ANY agency she has.”
It’s not even that, the way I see it. It’s just what “the white man” represents to black people in America. It’s not the combination of white + man that has them in an uproar, its just “white man”, period. Also note that few black people would say that white women are dominating black men in their relationships with them, despite the fact that blacks tend to believe a person’s “race” is much more significant than their gender.
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I’m sorry, Menelik, did you say something? Something worthwhile or, more importantly, sensible?
Oh no, you didn’t. Sorry for the confusion.
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One question: why are we still talking about Jade and her choices instead of dr Laura? She is the guilty party here.
I’m not saying there’s nothing to discuss about Jade and her behaviour, but dr Laura’s behaviour is a main issue here!
What I’m saying is, deluded or not, brainwashed or not, Jade is a victim here. Her (presumably poor) choice of husband has nothing to do with dr Laura, who is the bad girl here.
It reminds me of rape cases, when people switch the discussion and instead of talking about the rapist start discussing about the way victim behaved, what was her choice of clothes, if she was drunk, etc. Even if she was acting stupid and careless, it doesn’t make rapist any less guilty.
(I guess this sounds a bit harsh. I am sorry. I didn’t want to trash you people or tell you what to do; after all, there’s no much to talk about dr Laura herself- it’s all clear, and Jade did make some confusing choices… Still, let’s not forget who is the main offender here.)
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No problem!
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Mira, I wondered that too. In nearly all the discussions I’ve seen about this situation, Mrs. Hanson and/or Mr. Hanson become the focal point, instead of Dr. Laura’s racist rant and the psychology behind such beliefs. Mrs. Hanson is a fool and Mr. Hanson is a racist coward (according to them). But what of Dr. Laura? I think this may be because the Hansons situation confirms what many blacks think a black woman/white man dynamic is like: the white man is racist or has racist loved ones and he doesn’t defend his wife against the racism, while the wife quietly suffers under this abuse because she is trying to get approval from whites or “be white”.
I also doubt Dr. Laura will become the symbol of racist white women, while Mr. Hanson has already become the symbol of racist white men married to black women. People will bring him up for years to come like they do with Don Imus and his ilk in regards to bw/wm, while they rarely bring up the Bonnie Sweetens in relation to the opposite
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Menelik Charles,
Some of your views are truly confusing and completely illogical. Black women are humans with a mind of their own, who can make their own choices- who are free to make their own choices- even if you don’t like those choices. News flash: you don’t have to be white to be offensive and disrespectful to black women. You;re doing a great job.
Thad,
I do believe you (general you) should stand up for your spouse, even if that means fighting with your family. I don’t mean on beating up your old relatives or something, but like Witchsistah said, you should make it clear you won’t let some things go unnoticed. You can’t change your relatives, but you can make clear that you don’t find any of the comments about “those people” interesting, innocent or funny. Most important of all, you won’t attack your spouse for feeling offended and tell her “it’s not a big deal”. Your spouse needs to know you’re in this together- issues she has become yours.
(And I’m not talking about race issues here… It can be anything, really. And of course, a woman should do the same for her man.)
In that sense, I don’t see Jade’s husband as someone truly supportive. As I understand the situation, he didn’t try to stop his relatives from saying the n word. He wasn’t even the one who called dr Laura and asked what to do about his racist relatives who use the n word. He is strangely absent from this conversation. That doesn’t seem like a good thing. Your spouse and your kids are your closest family and you should do all you can to protect them. Simple as that.
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Natasha W said:
I also doubt Dr. Laura will become the symbol of racist white women, while Mr. Hanson has already become the symbol of racist white men married to black women. People will bring him up for years to come like they do with Don Imus and his ilk in regards to bw/wm, while they rarely bring up the Bonnie Sweetens in relation to the opposite.
Menelik said BEFORE Natasha’s comments above:
I am constantly surprised at the stream of racial complaints coming from the mouths of Black women “happily” married to white men. But that aside, I believe many such relationships are, in fact, racial alliances (against whom, I wonder?) in which white men are but silent partners – and the reaction to my comments on here pretty much proves my point!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Mira said:
Some of your views are truly confusing and completely illogical. Black women are humans with a mind of their own, who can make their own choices- who are free to make their own choices.
Menelik replies:
Mira, we all have our weak points. My problem is my intellect. For example, I have one of the lowest IQ scores on the planet (actually, lower than Einstein’s, if you can believe it!) so if what I’ve posted was “truly confusing, and completely illogical” then I’m certain you can quote at least two segments from me outlining said unreason and confusion.
I’ll wait.
In the meantime, my tiny brain tells me that it is unwise, and indeed, “illogical”, to arrive at a conclusive judgement until one is clear about what is to be judged.
Have I made myself clear?
Menelik Charles
London England
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As for dr Laura, I guess what she did was expectable. It looks like a white person needs to be really, really, really into anti-racism to even think about saying things such as “your husband’s relatives are wrong for doing that, and so is he if he doesn’t stand up for you.”
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Menelik Charles,
Ah, don’t be so harsh on yourself!
Here are some of the examples (at least from this thread):
Such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!
Of course, we can deny this fact if we like (and some of us will) but you’ll never find a Jew denying their Holocaust, and fighting with other Jews to that end.
Rape and murder are both horrible crimes, but they are not the same thing. Apart from that, nobody here denies the fact white men raped black slaves. So I don’t see the connection between the two.
And this “power” to “choose” white men as partners is hardly an informed one if a Black female descendent of institutionally raped slave women judges her potential ‘choice’ on whether or not he, or his family, uses racial epithets in their presence lol
I doubt any black woman dating a white man doesn’t know about what was going on during slavery. I doubt any of them are not informed. The thing is, some people choose to date and marry other people, not their race or collective identity.
check the comments section here:
http://thefreshxpress.com/2009/08/interracial-dating-if-white-men-dont-care-why-should-we/
and the article here:
http://blackconsciousthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-men-im-beginning-to-loose-respect.html
humble pie, anyone?
Your examples were ok, but I don’t see them supporting what you’re talking about. Author of the second one said she wasn’t against interracial relationships. But true, she did mention Emmett Till so ok. Author of the first one seems really confused, to the point of saying that white men don’t have problems when their women date blacks (which makes no sense). So I think we need better examples.
And this gem:
Consider this: we fight one another, and they f..k you (to put it bluntly), I mean, that’s a pretty perverse set up from the ‘get go’, dontcha think? Still, I understand where you guys are coming from, really, I do!
So, you are against married couples making love now?
Let me tell you something, Menelik- I hear this sort of crap every single day (about who is fu..king whom) and it’s disrespectful beyond words.
You are basically angry because some people are closer and loyal to their family (father of their children, for example) than a stranger that happens to share their race.
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Mira,
I think Jade has become the focus (at least among Black people) because she makes it convenient for people to have play the “See? I told you so!” card. In this thread at least, the women who have commented on Jade are Black women in relationships with White men, so I think that gives us license to comment in that the criticism isn’t “You got what you deserved for being with a White man” but rather “You definitely got involved with the wrong one.” The criticism of Dr. Laura is a done deal (everyone’s “one the same side”), and Jade’s husband is pretty much a nonentity in the situation (by choice), so the only thing left up for discussion is Jade/IRR in general.
Unrelated note: I don’t find the idea of White people challenging their friends/relatives all that hard–it seems like that by getting involved with a non-White person, most have signed on to make that sacrifice, if necessary. When my boyfriend took me to meet his family, he told me that if his dad said anything out of line he would take him aside, give him a “talking to”, and threaten to never come back if he was going to disrespect me. This, despite the fact that his father is his only surviving parent (which I would classify as a bigger sacrifice than parting ways with an errant relative or two). We didn’t have anything to worry about (and really didn’t expect to; my boyfriend’s just the overprotective type), but I would’ve given some major side-eye if we drove all the way down there to stay (for 10 days!) with some people who were going to come out of their faces with me.
It seems to be a basic tenet of long-term relationships (marriage especially) that you choose your partner over anyone else–if someone in my family treated my boyfriend poorly because he’s White (and/or Jewish), I would be mostly disappointed in them for making their soapbox more important than my happiness.
Thad,
I think people are expected to run interception with their own families because the new person is the “guest” or what have you. Like you said, some people might prefer to “fight their own battles”, but I’m guessing they do so under the assumption that their partner will back them up. I don’t think one method is inherently better than the other, but I would guess most people take cues from their partner.
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Mira said:
Some of your views are truly confusing and completely illogical. Black women are humans with a mind of their own, who can make their own choices- who are free to make their own choices.
Menelik replies:
Mira, we all have our weak points. My problem is my intellect. For example, I have one of the lowest IQ scores on the planet (actually, lower than Einstein’s, if you can believe it!) so if what I’ve posted was “truly confusing, and completely illogical” then I’m certain you can quote at least two segments from me outlining said unreason and confusion.
I’ll wait.
Mira replied:
Here are some of the examples (at least from this thread):
Menelik said:
such an act represents both the dis-empowered Black man slave, and the de-flowered Black woman…or girl! It’s much like a German placing a Jew inside a gas oven, and flicking the switch!
Mira says:
Rape and murder are both horrible crimes, but they are not the same thing. Apart from that, nobody here denies the fact white men raped black slaves. So I don’t see the connection between the two.
Menelik replied:
Hmmm, I take your point but even as an idiot I know that it is usually because something is “not the same thing” is exactly why it is being compared to something different! Black and white are not the same ‘colour’ but how often are they compared, and contrasted?.
My point is that as someone involved in psychology, and engaged to a psychotherapist, I’m well aware that for victims of child sexual abuse, and adult rape, the experience has often been described as “a living death”, or “a fate worse than death”.
Jews, by contrast, were put out of their misery in their “millions”: it was the survivors who suffered the most. Much like rape victims, I guess. What say you?
More below….
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Jasmin,
I do understand why people discuss Jade. After all, there’s no much to be said about dr Laura. Still, I might not see this as an appropriate place to do that, since Jade and her behaviour are not the main issue of this post and whatever she did or didn’t do doesn’t make dr Laura any less guilty.
But it’s not like I don’t understand why people felt the need to talk about Jade here- this is a blog and not a message board, and nobody can open a new topic and make it about Jade so the discussion about her can move out there. I know Ankhesen wrote a good post, but it’s a different blog and we can’t expect people simply to move there to discuss it.
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Mira,
Oh, we agree that Dr. Laura was the one at fault. But in light of her past right-wing rantings, it’s not surprising. And at the beginning of the thread, a few other posters including myself speculated on WHY Dr. Laura’s response was so violent in proportion to the stimulus. But going on and on about Dr. Laura’s racism is like going on and on about the sky being blue. And it’s not like Dr. Laura’s going to change at all (except watch where she calls Black people “nigger” from now on).
But some of the themes Dr. Laura’s rant touched on like the assumption that BW dating WM have put themselves into racial servitude willingly and therefore deserve any shit we get. That because we love ONE White person we co-sign any and everything ALL WP do. Or because we’re with one White person, we’ve somehow sold out and therefore have relinquished our Black card. That is all worth talking about because some headway could be made there, at least with some people.
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Witchsistah,
But some of the themes Dr. Laura’s rant touched on like the assumption that BW dating WM have put themselves into racial servitude willingly and therefore deserve any shit we get. That because we love ONE White person we co-sign any and everything ALL WP do. Or because we’re with one White person, we’ve somehow sold out and therefore have relinquished our Black card. That is all worth talking about because some headway could be made there, at least with some people.
By all means, I agree and I understand. This needed to be said, and this issue needs to be discussed.
So please don’t think I’m against talking about those issues, because I do think it needs to be said and it needs to be discussed, and you and others have a full right to do it (I agree what you said anyway).
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Menelik said:
and this “power” to “choose” white men as partners is hardly an informed one if a Black female descendent of institutionally raped slave women judges her potential ‘choice’ on whether or not he, or his family, uses racial epithets in their presence lol
Mira replied:
I doubt any black woman dating a white man doesn’t know about what was going on during slavery. I doubt any of them are not informed. The thing is, some people choose to date and marry other people, not their race or collective identity.
Menelik says:
remember we’re talking about Jade here! Ever heard of the phrase “self-hating Jew”? They sure know plenty about their history which is conceivably why such people hate themselves in the first place!
Marrying gentiles is why out of living the Jewish existence (of pain and suffering) until someone within the gentile’s family ranks reminds them of who they are, and how they are perceived.
Mira referred me to my links below provided to counter Natasha W’s claim that “NO ONE” ever used the murder of Emmitt Till to dissuade Black men from inter-racial dating:
check the comments here:
http://thefreshxpress.com/2009/08/interracial-dating-if-white-men-dont-care-why-should-we/
and the article here:
http://blackconsciousthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/black-men-im-beginning-to-loose-respect.html
Mira said:
your examples were ok, but I don’t see them supporting what you’re talking about. Author of the second one said she wasn’t against interracial relationships. But true, she did mention Emmett Till so ok.
Menelik replies:
again, Mira, this is why I’m so damned dumb! You would NEVER believe me if I said I was not against mixed relationships so why so readily take the author’s word as gospel? She is totally against Black men associating with white women. I read her blog. Do you?
There’s absolutely nothing confusing above if 1) you’re willing to accept Natasha was wrong to make the outlandish claim that “no one” ever bring up Emmitt Till as a reason for Black men NOT to date white women, and 2) that Von, the blog owner whose link I provided, is very much against mixed relationships, and typically attempts to provide a disclaimer to conceal this fact.
Of course, you know full well this Black WOMAN attempted to shame Black men into conforming to her wishes. No critical analysis, no insights, just shaming tactics! To acknowledge this would be to concede that my points were perfectly rational!
Mira said:
Author of the first one seems really confused, to the point of saying that white men don’t have problems when their women date blacks (which makes no sense). So I think we need better examples.
Menelik replies:
correct! SHE MAKES “NO SENSE”! The sense I make is in reading between the lines, and not accepting things at face values (which, curiously, you appear to be doing here). The female poster is inarticulate to the point of confusion, it is true, but what was clear was her sentimental aversion to mixed relationships!
Mira, take sides, by all means, but taking the piss is really not logical in the arena of reasoned debate (at least on my side) and in the face of scurrilous accusations, and downright lies! Where’s your conscience, for heaven’s sake?
Jesus, this is seeming like an episode of ‘Soap’…”confused? You will be!”
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik Charles,
Marrying gentiles is why out of living the Jewish existence (of pain and suffering) until someone within the gentile’s family ranks reminds them of who they are, and how they are perceived.
I know plenty about the issues of group reacting of someone dating out. More then I ever wanted to know. So trust me, I know what it is about. I simply don’t see Jews and Holocaust as an appropriate analogy for black women dating white men.
Mira referred me to my links below provided to counter Natasha W’s claim that “NO ONE” ever used the murder of Emmitt Till to dissuade Black men from inter-racial dating.
Like I said, you are right: there is at least one person who used this argument. In that sense, Natasha was wrong. But I don’t think Natasha meant “literally no one”, because with 7 billions of people on Earth, you can usually find at least one who does anything you can think of, even if it’s rare or unusual.
You would NEVER believe me if I said I was not against mixed relationships so why so readily take the author’s word as gospel?
How can you say that without knowing what I think? I don’t know if you are against mixed relationships- what I do think is that you are against black women/white men relationships. And not just in a way of “black women need to be careful because many whites are racists”, but in a way “any sex between white man and a black woman is rape by default, and black women who agree to be in such disrespectful relationships are brainwashed”. (True, you didn’t use word “brainwashed” but that’s the vibe I’m getting).
Of course, you know full well this Black WOMAN attempted to shame Black men into conforming to her wishes. No critical analysis, no insights, just shaming tactics! To acknowledge this would be to concede that my points were perfectly rational!
I am not a regular there and I don’t know what kind of blogger she is. Whether her points are rational or not (maybe they’re not) have nothing to do with whether YOUR points are rational. Doing something wrong just because others do it too doesn’t automatically make it ok.
correct! SHE MAKES “NO SENSE”! The sense I make is in reading between the lines, and not accepting things at face values (which, curiously, you appear to be doing here). The female poster is inarticulate to the point of confusion, it is true, but what was clear was her sentimental aversion to mixed relationships!
This woman (first poster) seems to be confused about many people’s point of view: white men, white women, maybe even black men. So I wouldn’t use her as an example of “how black women feel about this issue”. None of the women here, for example, made such mistakes and you should not judge all everybody based on some blogger’s thoughts.
Mira, take sides, by all means, but taking the piss is really not logical in the arena of reasoned debate (at least on my side) and in the face of scurrilous accusations, and downright lies! Where’s your conscience, for heaven’s sake?
My conscience? My conscience doesn’t let me keep my mouth shut, Menelik, even though I know really well many people would disagree about even talking about black community instead of “minding my own business”.
But I’ve seen things like your posts many, many times and I don’t think they are a good way of handling situation, to say the least.
You see, it’s not really about whether I support black women and trash black men. I don’t. I don’t automatically think black women are ok at whatever they do, or that black men are always wrong. It would be an insane thing to do, and really, really unfair.
Also, I don’t judge any interracial unions. To me, there’s no difference between men dating outside the group and women dating outside the group. So it’s not I’m “taking sides” per se.
I might be biased because I’m a woman, though, and I am ready to take that criticism. But what I dislike here is some of your outrageous posts full of hate, full of judging, calling love making a “rape”, getting angry at other people’s choices because they don’t match your own, etc.
Your rhetoric is harsh, but it’s not the worst thing here; the worst is your apparent belief (correct me if I’m wrong) that collective identity/community must come before somebody’s family and that these women should see you (a total stranger) as someone more important to them than their family! Because that is basically what I’m getting from your posts.
Also, don’t you think these women are able to make their own choices and choose a partner that truly respects them, love them, treat them as they deserve to be treated? Just because you think Jade or some women made a mistake, doesn’t mean all of them do! Don’t you think they know what’s going on in their relationships better than you do?
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@Witchsistah,
So taking people’s racist abuse is showing you have good self esteem? The more abuse you take the higher your self-esteem? Funny, I was always told it was the opposite. The more abuse you take the better you know how racism works?
It’s always either this or that with Yanks, isn’t it? Never any middle ground. Never a third way out.
Yeah, there are times when taking abuse is indeed a matter of good self-esteem. Says so right in the Bible, by the way. And there are times when it’s not. When you have power and plenty of cards in your hand, then you can afford to be magnanimous. Any way you cut it, pitching a fit over a senile, wheel-chair bound old lady who has no power over you and whose comments, if she were to make them, would embarass absolutely everyone all around you – because they recognize them for what they are – isn’t a mark of high self-esteem.
And I say this as someone who has to daily live with the prejudices that are directed against me, albeit non-racial, so please don’t tell me I don’t know what it’s like to have to back down from a confrontation because now is not the time for it.
There’s also a huge middle ground between “humbly taking abuse” and “not taking any s*** off of no a**hole”. But I wouldn’t expect most Americans to get that, given your culture’s binary and confrontational attitude towards everything. I’ll just say that there are plenty of ways to make one’s displeasure felt that don’t involve drawing a line in the sand, like a cowboy, and daring people to cross over it.
Now you obviously do what you want to do, when you want to, and your husband – if he’s a good husband – knows that and should you support you in it. Just like I would support my own wife’s right to be upset at a racist statement, no matter who or where it came from. I’m just thankful she operates on more sophisticated circuitry than an “off/on” switch when it comes to fighting.
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@Mira
One question: why are we still talking about Jade and her choices instead of dr Laura? She is the guilty party here.
Because no one defends Doc Meng in even the slightest degree, Mira. There’s a consensus that she’s a flat-out racist pig. The only question to my mind is to what degree is she consciously doing what she’s doing in order to whip up more anti-Obama froth or whether she actually believes the crap she spouts.
I suppose we could discuss that, but it’s not very interesting, is it?
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I suppose we could discuss that, but it’s not very interesting, is it?
Not on itself, but discussing that kind of attitude, belief that any black person married to a white one should get used to hearing n word, republicans or white women racism are interesting subjects. Oh, and Skeletor, too.
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Oh, great. Now black women married to white men are allying with white men against black men.
🙄
I wonder how much more utterly bizarre and illogical the comments here are going to get.
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As for standing up for your spouse, I don’t think anybody expect people to beat up their racist grandmothers, Thad. Like you said yourself, there are ways to make your displeasure felt and ways to make sure you won’t tolerate any bulls…t coming from your friends and family. It doesn’t need to be violent, Thad. Nobody is suggesting that it has to be (as far as I understand).
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Natasha,
Oh, great. Now black women married to white men are allying with white men against black men.
Now I’m beginning to see why “black men and white women” might become a “controversial” subject and, possibly, why is Abagond hesitant to write it.
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@Mira
I do believe you (general you) should stand up for your spouse, even if that means fighting with your family. I don’t mean on beating up your old relatives or something, but like Witchsistah said, you should make it clear you won’t let some things go unnoticed.
I don’t think you read the story very carefully: the family in question ALREADY was letting us know that such things weren’t “unnoticed”. But what the hell were they gonna do if auntie started raving about Latin American immigrants or blacks? Tape her mouth shut? What they probably would have done is wheeled her out of the room and appologize profusely to Ana. They were worried enough about the situation that they wanted me to cue Ana in on it. That’s hardly the position taken by people who are ignoring a problem or think it’s no big deal.
But seriously, what would you have them do? Float auntie out on an iceberg on Lake Michigan? It’s not like you could sit down and have a coherent conversation with her in the first place. Or maybe just let her rot at the nursing home for Christmas dinner, in the name of good taste…
Again, I bring this up because the real life situations like this are a hell of a lot more complex than the sophmoric “stand up for your wife or else” kind of binary that everyone here seems to presume exists. I’m talking about a real, comoplicated situation and all you can do is sing me a chorus of “Stand by your woman”? 😀 How about a REAL solution – what you’d think would be appropriate behavior, Mira?
@Jasmin
I think people are expected to run interception with their own families because the new person is the “guest” or what have you. Like you said, some people might prefer to “fight their own battles”, but I’m guessing they do so under the assumption that their partner will back them up. I don’t think one method is inherently better than the other, but I would guess most people take cues from their partner.
Precisely. These things need to be played by ear and the couple in question had better be able to talk about them. There is no cut-and-dried, ready mix solution for all situations of this sort.
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Thad,
I don’t think (in this conversation) it’s as much about what you do as it is what you would do (if asked of you). If one of your relatives said something that put you in danger of losing your wife (i.e., she gave you an ultimatum or said, “when they say X, you need to do Y”), I’m betting you’d do what she asked you to, yes? The issue with Jade doesn’t have to with some absolute rules over what to do when when someone says something racist, because every situation is different. The problem is that she felt like he should do something, and he didn’t. Her husband has made it clear through his actions that he doesn’t care about her feelings/comfort; now the question seems to be why she’s sticking around/complaining about it when she already knows the deal.
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Mira,
“Not on itself, but discussing that kind of attitude, belief that any black person married to a white one should get used to hearing n word”
I think this attitude is preposterous, but I’m not surprised she said this, although I can imagine it was hurtful to Jade.
I 100 percent agree with Witchsistah’s comment here:
Especially this part:
“To me, the hurtful part was not Dr. Laura’s using the n-word at the caller… but when she told the caller that if she were so hypersensitive about race then she shouldn’t have entered an interracial relationship. Basically, Dr. Laura told the BW that’s what her uppity Black a*s got for thinking she was good enough for a WM and that she deserved to be treated with respect by other Whites. Right THERE, Dr. Laura made her intentions and views known.”
It seems like a lot of people are WAITING for black women to have complaints about their relationships with white women so they can say “That’s what you get!!!” They will completely ignore all the positive comments made by black women in relation to their partners and focus on the negative ones in order to say “Of course they could never get along. Now black women, know your place!”
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that should read “relationships with white men…”
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Oh, great. Now black women married to white men are allying with white men against black men.
Nyeh, nyeh, nyeh…. And we all meet here in our apartment, first sunday of every month, to plot out how we can best move this grand conspiracy forward.
Next week, in fact, we’ll be talking about how we can get that nice little Indian bird down at the curry hut to give MC a come-down when he tries a pick-up line on her. It is the Conspiracy’s fond hope that this will confuse him intoacting out against the Indians and Pakistanis who are his “natural” PoC allies.
Not a dull moment down here at the ol’ evil white conspiracy headquarters. 😉
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P.S. I’m assuming we posted at the same time–I was replying to your comment directed at Witchsistah @ 16:21 (per the blog timestamp).
Natasha,
When did that happen? Did I miss something?
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Mira,
“Now I’m beginning to see why “black men and white women” might become a “controversial” subject and, possibly, why is Abagond hesitant to write it.”
I wouldn’t comment on that post. I have nothing to say about that pairing that is worthy of a whole post. The subject doesn’t concern me and I have no interest in discussing it outside of the larger milieu of interracial relationships.
Jasmin,
See here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/dr-laura-and-the-n-word/#comment-63080
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@ Jasmin
If one of your relatives said something that put you in danger of losing your wife (i.e., she gave you an ultimatum or said, “when they say X, you need to do Y”), I’m betting you’d do what she asked you to, yes?
No doubt. But again, most real life family politics situations are hardly that dramatic.
The issue with Jade doesn’t have to with some absolute rules over what to do when when someone says something racist, because every situation is different. The problem is that she felt like he should do something, and he didn’t.
I agree. At the very least, he needs to ask “What do you want me to do?”
But as Witchsistah’s own comments illustrate, you’re rarely able to cut off your whole family – nor would you want to – simply because one side of it or a person in it is a jerk. And even if you avoid those people, there are going to be times – weddings and funerals, most particularly – where you’re going to have to share a room with them.
Awkward, yes. Unfortunate, yes. But absent open violence, It’s hard to say what you can do other than what Witchsistah’s husband does: go stand by your wife on the other side of the room. Unfortunately, even then you’re going to have to be cordial to “those people” at one point or another in the cerimony.
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Natasha,
The irony seemed lost on Dr. Laura that she essentially insulted White people too. “We’re all a bunch of racists, why would you get involved with us?” Heh.
I get really tired of Black men trying to provoke me into saying negative things about Black men in order to reveal my “real” reasons for being in a relationship with a White guy. Now some of these fools up in here are another story… :roll:, but we all know the Internet brings out some weirdos (presumably those who have the free time to care about the relationships of people they don’t know).
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Natasha,
Gotcha. Does this mean you won’t make it to the “racial alliance” meeting tonight? 😉
Thad,
That’s what makes this situation so interesting. Per Jade, these weren’t distant relatives, these were her husband’s friends. What’s that they say about “birds of a feather?”
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Thad,
How about a REAL solution – what you’d think would be appropriate behavior, Mira?
Well, obviously, that depends on the person involved and the situation. I never said there should be strict rules of “they say this, you MUST say/do that”.
For example, my paternal grandmother loved to make comments about my mother’s (alleged) working class family. My father usually reacted by swearing or talking dirty jokes at table and doing everything to embarrass his mother in order to show his side of the family is not that “noble” (it didn’t work and my mother didn’t think he was doing enough, though).
So it does depend on a situation and people involved. When somebody close annoys you, you will know how to make them shut up. The thing is, you must either be annoyed yourself or understand that your loved one is hurt.
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Jasmin,
“The irony seemed lost on Dr. Laura that she essentially insulted White people too. “We’re all a bunch of racists, why would you get involved with us?” Heh.
Yes! I thought I was the only one that noticed that. The first thing I thought when she said that was “So all white people are basically racist, so keep away unless you can deal with it.”
“I get really tired of Black men trying to provoke me into saying negative things about Black men in order to reveal my “real” reasons for being in a relationship with a White guy.”
That happens to you too?… Sheesh, I have black male friends, who were otherwise not troublesome or annoying, but as soon as soon as they found out my SO is white they kept trying to bring up the topic of “black men” every chance they got just in case I let something “slip”. Mind you, I call all people out on their BS, no matter their ascribed color. But I rarely do so now in relation to black men because I know they will try to twist into “You’re only saying that because you’re with a white guy and you hate black men.” And this one guy, a black militant type, always refers to my SO as “the white man.” For instance, he came to visit one day and I was sitting next to my life-sized teddy bear my SO got me and he said “Oh, is that from the white man?” 😐
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Jasmin said:
“The irony seemed lost on Dr. Laura that she essentially insulted White people too. “We’re all a bunch of racists, why would you get involved with us?” Heh.”
The irony was lost on Dr Laura because she does not see whites as racist. Dr Laura discounted every example of racism that Jade gave. To Dr Laura whites are not racist – blacks are just “hypersensitive”.
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Well, Dona Wanda’s back from the hospital witha big patch over her eye. We have to wait until tomorrow to see if she’s got her sight back. 😦
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Thaddeus, I hope she has a full recovery. My mother had eye surgery a few months ago too and she is doing well, but she said it hurt so bad that she doesn’t want to go back to do the other one.
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I’m lost… Who is Dona Wanda?
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Natasha,
Awww! at the life-sized teddy bear, but if someone had said that to me I probably would’ve smothered him with it.
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Thad,
Hopefully she recovers quickly!
Mira,
Thad’s mother-in-law.
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Did you all see Mrs. Hanson’s interview on Larry King Live? She says her husband has been “very supportive” through all this, but she seems to be holding back from saying anything that can be misconstrued. Fast forward to 4:18 (through 4:45):
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Hope she’ll be alright Thad. My mother got her both eyes done few years ago by and she’s fine. We (her kids) gave her a trip to Paris this year for her 72 birthday.
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Wanda has only one eye and she has glaucoma, so the normally routine cataract surgery here is a bit of a crap shot…
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“Supportive” my ass, he “loves” you but he can’t even tell his relatives and friends where to get off with that racist crap? I know she doesn’t want this to escalate any further and make her husband look like an even bigger tool but gimme a break Nita. sigh* Like a deer caught in headlights. And is it me or was she biting back the desire to say “You know what Larry, Sarah Palin just sucks.” lol. You hear the disdain and anger in Dr. Laura’s voice, how the hell can you defend that? The whole situation is just YUCK!
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Natasha,
I watched to segment you mentioned, and it was very….diplomatic. I’m still wondering why her husband isn’t actually there with her (even if he has some work obligation he can’t miss, why hasn’t anything come out in his own words?). And something just seems weird about saying, essentially, “My husband’s been very supportive of me in the aftermath of a racist attack that occurred when I was seeking help for a racist attack that involved him.” It places the Dr. Laura issue at the forefront even though her issue with her husband is what sparked this whole mess. She doesn’t know Dr. Laura and probably never will, but she’s stuck with her husband (and his racial baggage) forever, at least for now.
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Thad,
My views on whether or not a person of any gender should defend their spouse is “Yes, or else don’t marry them.” If you’re not going to stand up for your spouse, and no, that doesn’t ALWAYS mean starting a fight or beating the shit out of someone. But it also could be as simple as “Dude, that’s my HUSBAND/WIFE!” in a stern enough voice. If they aren’t good enough for you to defend as fellow humans then I wonder why the hell you married someone you deem as so inferior.
And yes, you can make fun of me and insult my intelligence (because obviously, my tiny, Negro brain can’t think in nuances or subtleties) and psyche (I obviously have very low self-esteem to not to relish taking racist abuse) all you want, but I don’t see it as some huge hardship nor some unreasonable request for a Black wife to DEMAND her White husband stick up for her against his racist friends and relatives. Jade wasn’t talking about senile, old relatives (and not all old peeps are senile–a lot of them know EXACTLY what they’re saying). I’m sure most of the people she was referring too haven’t experienced an onset of Alzheimer’s or dementia. It was a bunch of White folks who thought they were slick and being “subtle” with their passive-agressive digs at her via their references to “Black people.” And her husband didn’t do ish about it. To me, that spells one sorry bastard on his part. This isn’t about asking Jade’s husband to go all Ninja Assassin on folks if they look at his wife the wrong way.
I don’t know. Maybe I’m spoiled now because my husband does not see it as some arduous task or unfair cross for him to bear to defend his Black wife. He’s done it with family, with friends, hell, even with his guild. He’s quit guilds whose members spewed racist bullshit, including anti-Black bullshit. He curtailed HIS OWN FUN in defense of his wife. What did he do? He found another guild with some folks with sense. When that shit first started happening to him, he’d just tell the group, “You know my WIFE is Black, right?” Pregnant pause and then some uncomfortable apologies and back to the game. Go tank that boss! After a while, he got to know a group of people and now, everytime some idiot decides to pull some racist bullshit, he has a GROUP of friends that step in before he does.
Or maybe I’m just reaping the results of the experience he gained with his first wife. Folks would come to her behind his back and say all sorts of crap to her. She’d never tell him until AFTER the fact. His mother was the main perpetrator. His mother doesn’t do that with me. Maybe he told her she’d better not repeat her behavior with me. Maybe I project the attitude that I am NOT about to take that bullshit off of ANYONE and would verbally eviscerate them (and no, I do not mean scream at them and cuss them out like apparently ALL BW automatically do) if they tried. I just don’t believe in being sweet and nice to people who are abusing me.
And yes, I would defend my husband against my family, if I still had dealings with them. I know I’d have to truly let my mother and sister have it, but I would with no problem and go to bed at night and drool in my pillow just fine. Now they’d probably talk a TON of shit about us when we’re not there, but they’d best hone their acting skills while we’re present.
This wouldn’t be an issue for Jade if she didn’t call Dr. Laura complaining about it, and I’m stressing the COMPLAINING part. If she were cool with the status quot then, hell, it’s HER marriage. She’s gotta be in it, not us. If it didn’t bother her, fine. But obviously it does and has for a while. There’s all sorts of shit one person’ll put up with from a partner that’d send another heading for the door. Many women have expressed surprise that I’d “allow” my husband to play WoW, even though I play occasionally myself, because they’d never “let” their husbands play that game. But seeing as I’m on my computer doing other stuff just as much as he’s on his playing WoW, I don’t see the conflict. He’s available when I need him. Some men may wonder why he doesn’t make go out and get a job outside the home. They want a wife who is able to WORK, dammit. If your wife doesn’t mind putting up with your racist kinfolk so you don’t have to be bothered defending her then wonderful. You’ve found the right woman. But WE would not have gotten along especially when you told me that me NOT wanting to accept racist abuse from your loved ones meant that I must have shitty self-esteem. Not defending me and insulting me on top of it, yeah, that would have gotten you AND my husband your walking papers.
And Jade’s situation is not of occassional racist abuse, some throwaway quote from someone having an off day, but regular racist abuse over a long period of time. I’m wondering did her husband not witness these events? If he did, what about that says “It’s okay” to him? If he really is that fucking dense then has she brought this to his attention? If so, he obviously hasn’t done anything about it so she needs to let him know in a way that says, “THIS IS SERIOUS! YOU NEED TO GET OFF YOUR DEAD ASS AND START DEFENDING ME, DAMMIT!” If she hasn’t brought it to his attention then why not?
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And with these issues, there is always some quibbling about how much racist abuse is OKAY for Black people to suck up. Um, how ’bout NONE. Yeah, I know we’re not in that world yet (we will be when I have my starship, replicator, transporter, holodeck and Soong-type android) because we’re not in a world where no one has to take abuse of any kind in order to get through this world. It’s like figuring out the acceptable amount of rat hairs and poop that can be in a quantity of grain. Ideally the number would be ZERO. Even though, that ain’t the reality, that is the goal. The whole reach exceeding the grasp thing.
But the goal should not be convincing Blacks or any other PoC that there is an acceptable amount of racial abuse for us to take (apparently, it’s good for our self-esteem) as if it has absolutely no effect or very minimal effect on us or ain’t just plain WRONG.
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Um, how ’bout NONE
Great ideal. In practice things are a bit more difficult. After all, YOU are at least passively sucking up some racist abuse when you go to a family function with your husband and have to be cordial – or at least ignore – people who hate you.
I don’t hear anyone here saying that there’s “an acceptable ammount of abuse”.
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Natasha W,
I caught that whole “Well, all Whites are racist, LIKE ME, so that’s what you get for getting with one of us” message from Dr. Laura. I think I even mentioned it in a long-ago, far-away comment above. Or at least Dr. Laura felt that all Whites felt like she did which is also why she felt perfectly fine spouting off like she did ON THE AIR. She thought ALL of White America’d have her back on that. She was shocked when folks DID NOT support her. It’s like she was standing there, talking a lot of shit thinking she had mad backup. And then turned around and no one was there, not even her sponsors.
She still cannot face the fact that enough of White America was so not cool with her shtick that she had to leave radio (I wonder if that was voluntary or not). She wants to blame some nebulous “liberal forces” which I’m sure she thinks are only PoC and a few White gays (who are the only Whites she thinks don’t co-sign her). She cannot and will not face that a lot of “regular” White American also said, “Naw, bitch. That shit you did was FOUL!”
“I get really tired of Black men trying to provoke me into saying negative things about Black men in order to reveal my “real” reasons for being in a relationship with a White guy.”
That happens to you too?… Sheesh, I have black male friends, who were otherwise not troublesome or annoying, but as soon as soon as they found out my SO is white they kept trying to bring up the topic of “black men” every chance they got just in case I let something “slip”.
I’ve gotten that from Black people, the constant testing and prodding to determine what kind of Black person you are. Not all Blacks I run into do that. When I mention my husband’s White, some just roll with it. After all, I’m the one that’s gotta live with him. Other Blacks start the prodding and testing. I ditch them because I’ve been down that road enough times to know how it’s gonna end. The testing will NEVER end because they’ve put me on the outs for being a White man’s wife. In their minds, a BW with a WM is a sellout and there is no way she can be “down” or speak any truth to power about White racism or White supremacy. They’re just looking for proof of my selling out (outside of my spouse).
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Thad,
Like I said, “Ideally the number would be ZERO. Even though, that ain’t the reality, that is the goal. The whole reach exceeding the grasp thing.”
One way my husband and I are trying to reach that goal is basically not communicating with the racist relatives. You heard about ONE event I attended with them there. I have not been to any other. The only reason I did go was 1) I was invited, 2)my then-boyfriend was in the ceremony as the Best Man and 3) it was his brother’s wedding and dude was okay, not his fault his mother’s side are a bunch of racist jackholes. But you didn’t read anything about me going over there for the holidays or paying them a visit. When my husband’s racist grandma was dying, he went over there alone. I didn’t accompany him. I’d have gone with him to the funeral, if there were one, and then gone home. I would not have attended the repast/reception afterward. I’d have been there to support my husband, not pay court to those people.
And this is not because I have low self-esteem. It’s because my self-esteem is high enough for me to realize that I do NOT have to take racist abuse from ANYONE nor am I somehow deserving of it by having the misfortune of being Black.
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Jasmin, Gen, Natasha W,
I have YET to hear from Jade whether or not her husband is doing a better job defending her. The only follow up I’ve heard was her on Larry King saying that ONE neighbor came up and apologized to her after she blew their cover on Dr. Laura.
One neighbor.
How much you all wanna bet that either 1) the racist abuse’ll get worse or 2) they’ll just freeze her out?
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Well, I’m lucky because, as I said, the out-and-out racists are very few and far between in my families and are mostly married in, anyhow. So the only time we see them is at huge all-family functions.
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Thad,
I bet Jade’s hubby’s people didn’t think they were being out-and-out racists either.
I’m lucky because I have a husband who values me as his wife and as a fellow human being enough to realize that it is not reasonable to demand I take racist abuse from those near to him.
Oh, and as for using the Bible as a source of authority, not everyone here is Christian so not everyone sees the Bible as A source of authority much less as THE source.
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I’m lucky because I have a husband who values me as his wife and as a fellow human being enough to realize that it is not reasonable to demand I take racist abuse from those near to him.
First of all, who’s demanding anything? Secondly, what do Jade’s husband’s families self-image have to do with anything here? Finally, I’m not an xtian either, but I do think that you don’t have to see the Bible as an authority, much less THE authority, to recognize that it ocassionally contains some wisdom.
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Well, here’s a question for you, Witchsistah.
Given that we’re a biracial couple living in Rio de Janeiro, Ana is often mistaken for a prostitute and I am often mistaken for her client. This happens pretty much at least once every week and the root of this syndrome is racist in the strictest sense (as well as nativist).
So what would you say we should do in this case: fight with everyone who makes this mistake, even when it’s, say, some poor street vendor without a pot to piss in, who’s not trying to be intentionally offensive, but who’s simply being ignorant?
Sure, that’s no arrogant excercize of power, is it? Two middle class, college-educated going after a poor guy for not living up to our oh-so-correct ideals…
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Thaddeus,
YOU were the one who first mentioned taking racist bullshit and self-esteem. Remember, your superior Brazilian wife and her higher self-esteem in the face of ol’ senile Auntie? And your response to the possibility of a BW like me perhaps not wanting to deal with that shit was to say that my self-esteem must be shit not to?
Don’t start pulling a Menelik. DON’T MENELIK ME! /joke
And the Bible also has passages that support slavery and treating women like chattel including offering up your daughters to be gang raped so that the male visitors in your home won’t be so sullied. Should I ask you how many goats and chickens you paid for your wife?
The Bible says to “turn the other cheek,” not “take it up the ass.”
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Thad,
Dude, you will pick THEE most extreme examples to show why a poor, put-upon WM should not be pressed to stand up for his Black wife. Whuppin’ up on senile old folk >< far from the grave, beating up on poor, street folk.
Yeah, I'm advocating the wholesale ass-whuppin' of anyone who gives me the stank eye. That must be it, those violent Negro American tendencies in me coming out.
Yet again, we are talking about JADE's case and it is NOT an issue of senile, old people that you may see only a few times a year for limited durations or strangers' stray remarks. It is an issue of ongoing racist abuse from her husband's know-good-and-damn-well-what-they're-doing loved ones. But you want to use extreme-ass situations and hyperbolic supposed responses to them to 1) paint me and other BW who feel as I do as utterly unreasonable and 2) make it seem like it's sooooooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrd for a WM to get off his dead ass and defend his wife against those loved ones that are CONTINUALLY giving her racist grief.
Dude, I don't give a shit what you or your wife do or don't do in response to racist bullshit. She's the one who's gotta deal with you, not me or anyone else here (thank Goddess). If you want to chill out and watch while other folk spit on her for being with you or you fight each and every one of them all in the face, I don't give a shit. That's between you all. You two have come to some sort of arrangement about that. My husband and I have come to a different arrangement. And in Jade's case, SINCE SHE'S ACTUALLY COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE IN HER MARRIAGE, she isn't happy about it. And some of us here do NOT think she's being unreasonable or doesn't have enough self-esteem not to feel like weathering racist bullshit from her husband's loved ones.
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Witchsistah, you have an unfortunate habit of taking the adjectives I supply, ramping them up to the nth degree, and then tossing them back. “Superior”? Hardly. “High self-esteem”? Oh, yes. Ana puts up with a lot of crap that many people would jerk their knees over and this is what makes her such an effective ethnographer.
As for my response, it was hardly “your self-esteem must be shit”. It was, however, an invitation for you to think about power as something inscribed on a micro- and everyday level and not as something in absolutist or historical terms.
Power is all around you and you do indeed use it every day. One of the major problems of feeling that one is always a victim is that it can blind you to the power one can indeed excercise.
Ana, in the case of my aunt, knows she has a certain degree of power in that situation and chooses not to use it. That is not “taking it up the ass” or “being submissive”: quite the contrary, in fact. It’s knowing what battles to fight and when you’ve already won.
There’s no question of the aunt being right in the family’s eyes: they are embarassed for her. This is a senile old woman in a wheelchair we’re talking about here: she has no power unless other people agree with her and no one does.
Now, I’ll reiterate: if Ana were to choose to be insulted and storm out over my aunt’s “Oh, you must be very smart, then” comment, I’d support her. But I’m happy that she realizes that she ddin’t have to because there was nothing to be gained or proven by rubbing a person’s face in the mud when they’ve lost.
It seems to me that this whole thing is rather abstract to you and gets resolved in words like “abuse” and worries about whether or not one is absolutely right or wrong. Again, I’d say that in a situation like this, your American cultural tendency to see the world in terms of dichotic moral absolutes is showing.
With regards to the Bible, you apparently didn’t read my comment the first time, so I’ll reiterate: I’m not xtian and I certainly don’t see the bible as a moral authority, let alone THE moral authority. Nevertheless, one can indeed find wisdom in its pages now and then.
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Well, I had more than few incidents with my former wife ( we divorced years ago) with her relatives and mine where I had to stand up for her. I think it comes naturally, or it should. After all, she is your wife. Abuse is abuse, racist or not, and if the husband can’t defend her wife against it, then when or against whom?
Ok, I know this is very Old School, but that is the way I was brought up. When my father started to give some s**t to my then wife after too many drinks, I called him out and told him to shut up or go for it. And this was my own father. Well, he did shut up, like most people will do once you draw the line.
Usually people will understand this all over the world. All you have to do is just say, “Hey, that is my WIFE you are talking about”, and it is over. I don’t know Brazil, never been there. But usually I don’t care what people think. I just care what they do for my wife/woman. I have been with women whom others have said that she looks like a whore and acts like one, and I have asked: so what? I know who she is. Get a life. That is usually enough.
But I think Thaddeus is also right. If you go after all the loosers in this world, you’ll have some runnin to do. Not every situation is serious or meaninful enough to get going. However, there are those too.
But still, I wonder where this womans husband is. He could have said that f**k Dr Laura and her klan. And he could tell his relatives to shut the F**k up. I have done it and it just cleared the air. Name calling and gossiping stopped right there in our families.
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You don’t have to get into a fight with every loser on the street, and you can ignore the family idiot that everyone else ignores.
But if a man has the balls to choose his own wife (instead of letting his mother do it), he should have the balls to defend her against his mother and anyone else.
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Yet again, folks want to paint me as unreasonable for simply NOT wanting to deal with racist abuse. And no, it is NOT hyperbole to call it abuse. Racism uses the same mechanisms especially gaslighting and shows many of the same signs. But how dare my lowly, darkie ass simply not want to deal with it.
And this is “abstract” for me–FOR ME-a Black woman living in America! Gawd, it would be sad if it weren’t so ludicrous. Yeah, because America just WORSHIPS the hell out of Black women! Right. I have so much power that people feel the right to touch me without my permission because my hair, skin, body shape is so “interesting” to them. I am devalued by every group in society. I am deemed unrapable and a whore open for business because I’m just a nigger slut like all other BW. Hell, I’m deemed too ugly to rape and put at the BOTTOM of the beauty hierarchy. I am both invisible and hyper exposed.
People are shocked that I can read. Let me repeat that, I HAVE MET PEOPLE WHO WERE SHOCKED I COULD FUCKING READ! Because Black people aren’t supposed to be literate. I’ve met people who so underestimated my intelligence that they were overimpressed when I could complete the simplest tasks correctly and ahead of schedule. I’ve then had those same people resent the hell out of me when they found out how smart and educated I am, especially if it exceeded theirs.
I’ve met people who felt that I definitely was uppity and had aspirations way above my lowly Negro station if I gained a little bit of the middle-class American pie and was not the lowly, ignorant, ill-mannered project bunny they wanted me to be.
I’m seen as so low that people wonder what is wrong with my husband simply for being with me. People think he’s mentally deranged for daring to choose a lowly BW over any and all other groups of women in America who are all deemed better than me. I am seen as not WORTH defending because I’m such poor stock. People justify not doing it because “all BW are tough.” We’re all rhino-hided, she-beasts and non-women. We don’t need love, help, nuturing, attention or care.
And these messages, plus many, many more degrading ones about BW permeate the American cultural landscape. They are everywhere. They are so embedded that they don’t even need to be stated outright anymore, simply implied or referred. There is no fucking way as a BW I can AVOID them unless I seal myself in a room (which my introverted self would love to do) and prohibit ANY intake of media whatsoever (which my INTJ self would abhor but be able to cope with if I could write). I won’t even get into the colorism I deal with both inside AND outside the Black community (like people who could understand my husband being with a BW who wasn’t so BLACK).
So fucking forgive me if I decline to experience racist abuse from my husband’s kinfolk. Forgive me if I decide I’d rather not be around the senile old racist because maybe I’ve had my quota of being treated as part space alient, part interesting specimen, part clever pet and part first wave of an ugly, invading horde. If that means I’d decline to go see senile, racist auntie then I’d decline. Not go and spit on the old woman and cuss her out as you think I would. But I’d decline. And I’d expect my husband to support that decision just like he did when I declined to go with him when his grandma died.
Hell, he even understands that it’s wearing on me constantly to be the ONLY PoC at his family gatherings at times, and they’re NICE White people. He understands that I have to watch everything I do because I’m the Black People Representative when I’m there. And it’s tiring as fuck for me to socialize anyways, but when you have to regulate yourself so strictly lest the Whites who are supposed to be on your side get any funny ideas, it’s downright draining. And you’re constantly put in the position to figure out when, if and how to respond to any racially iffy shit because that could be the start of something bad or a slip of the tongue. And if you do confront it in any manner, no matter how gentle or neutral, you know you’re going to be painted as the bad nigger, the hypersentive darkie, the angry Black bitch.
But yeah, being an American I don’t know dick about the subtleties of living as a Black woman. Being an American AND Black, I just want to beat everyone up because that’s what my culture has taught me along with the fact I’m inferior to everyone. Being an American Negress, I’m lucky that I can read and write and respond to such a wise, White, male, American ex-pat sage. Because, being married to a BW, he knows way more about being one than I do.
I don’t know if you’re just a fucking moron or a complete and utter asshole.
And AS I KEEP SAYING, we’re not talking about your senile aunt. So what do you think Jade’s husband should do? Tell her to fend for herself? Remind her he was like that when he married so why should he bother defending her now? Let her know her Black ass is lucky he married her at all? I mean since she’s obviously asking for the moon for him to get off his dead ass and defend her.
Or is that what’s got you confused? You want to believe that when my American darkie self says “defend” I mean “Blood makes the grass grow! Kill! Kill! Kill!” Because that’s all my little American cullud brain can encompass even though nothing I’ve written said anything about physical retaliation or even talking about anyone outside of close family and friends, you projecting dick.
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I swear this shit only comes up with Black women. There’s always this debate and back-and-forth about how and why people should treat BW like human fuckin’ beings! There’s this reasoning that BW should just TAKE racist-sexist abuse and debating about how much is enough for us to take before anyone comes to our aid or defense, including our spouses.
This is sick and sad.
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Nobody should take any amount of dehumanization, even if it’s “not a big deal” in the eyes of an offender.
He understands that I have to watch everything I do because I’m the Black People Representative when I’m there. And it’s tiring as fuck for me to socialize anyways, but when you have to regulate yourself so strictly lest the Whites who are supposed to be on your side get any funny ideas, it’s downright draining. And you’re constantly put in the position to figure out when, if and how to respond to any racially iffy shit because that could be the start of something bad or a slip of the tongue.
This is also important to remember.
Being a representative is also tiring and offensive in so many ways. It’s yet another form of dehumanization.
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Well, Sam, given that I’m white and male, I take my cues from my wife when it comes to this sort of crap. If she thinks it’s serious, then I’ll back her up.
Like I said, however, I’m glad her self-esteem is tough enough that she realizes a decrepit old lady in a wheelchair, who people love but who has some very embarassing racial opinions which everyone else emphatically disagrees with, isn’t a threat to her.
(In fact, Ana kind of looked at her like a living museum piece: “So THIS is the classic ‘Chicago white person’ so many American racism studies from the 1930s to the ’70s talked about. Hmmm…” Auntie was probably lucky that Ana didn’t press for an interview. :D)
This is the problem I’m trying to underscore here: if you’re white, you definitely have racists somewhere in the family. If they’re close (fathers, mothers, siblings, etc.) or very loud and obvious (i.e. n***** baiting), you’re probably going to have a fight on your hands.
And I agree with Witchsistah: just because they’re old doesn’t mean they can’t do harm, PROVIDED that they are backed up by the social consensus. The film “Monsterous Balls” has an excellent scene regarding this (btw, most Brazilians couldn’t quite figure out what the U.S. flap over this film was all about).
But when said people are relatively distant relatives whom one rarely sees, or when their racism is subtle or due to simple ignorance (take the recent comment of a relative of mine as an example here: “Latin immigrants are stealing our jobs”), one needs to know where and how to draw a line. Witchsistah, for all her claims to “taking no s***”, has obviously drawn one that’s far short of fighting or refusing ever to be in a room again with “those people”. Whether or not she admits it, I’d say that speaks to her high self-esteem.
Again, the key here is to look to one’s wife and see what she’s doing.
This is why all this talk about Jade’s husband is pretty much farting in the wind, IMHO. We have no idea what’s going on in that family, but if my relationship and the relationships of most of the white guys married to black women whom I have met is any guide, Jade pretty much calls the shots when it comes to matters racial in the family. She doesn’t seem to be ignorant, uneducated, or submissive to me and I highly doubt that she keeps her mouth shut to her husband when racist crap happens around her.
Jade’s husband is in a lose/lose situation in this scenario. If he says nothing, he’s going to be accused (as people here accuse him now), of not supporting his wife. But imagine if he were to say something – anything at all: people would quickly accuse him of being a “domineering white man” who’s “trying to elbow in on his wife’s business” because “he thinks she can’t speak for herself”.
Given the added fact that literally ANYTHING he says can and would be spun by the media until they found evidence of racial prejudice or “radicalism” (the 21st century synonym for “n*****-loving”), it’s probably the best of two bad options that he stay off-screen and keep his mouth shut.
Smart man, Jade’s husband. “Smart” not because he probably figured this out on his own (though he may have), but more likely “smart” because he’s probably following his wife’s orders in this instance.
(So do you think Jade uses a strap-on, Abagond…?
😀
There are DEFINITELY times when a smart man steps aside and follows his wife’s lead.)
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Thad,
I disagree about Jade’s husband. Obviously, I don’t know him and he might not be like people picture him now. But Jade was the one who called Dr Laura complaining about what was going on with his racist friends, and she never (as I understand) said anything about him defending her or telling their friends to stop. She never said anything about “my husband tried to make them stop, but they won’t” (and even this is not such a good thing, because the guy still seems incompetent to deal with his friends’ racism). But even worse than that, he is completely absent. We don’t even know if HE is against using the n word. Where is he? Why isn’t he supporting her?
And if she is the one who doesn’t let him appear on TV, then yes, it might be an explanation, but it just seems… weird.
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Mira,
Agreed. If she liked the way he was handling it, she wouldn’t have called into a television show. That in and of itself is a drastic step (I would think most people would talk to family, friends, and/or the people involved before taking it to national television.) And given what she described, it shouldn’t take explicit instructions for him to say anything anyway. None of the anecdotes in this thread come close to getting called a racial slur, and it seems like most commenters have agreed that they would step in (as the relative of the offensive person) without prompting from their partner. In situations like this, that’s almost the worst part–the fact that someone who’s supposed to care about you has to be told to act when something’s bothering you, rather than acting out of the natural protective tendencies many people have for their loved ones.
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@Witchsistah:
Yet again, folks want to paint me as unreasonable for simply NOT wanting to deal with racist abuse.
No one’s painting you as unreasonable and certainly not for WANTING to not want to deal with racist abuse.
The problem is, in real life, often one has to. The secret is knowing when, where and how one fights and this question becomes even more delicate when family is involved.
That’s why there’s no absolutist solution to this problem and that’s why, absent more information, it’s pretty foolish to try to descry what Jade and her husband’s understanding on this point is.
And this is “abstract” for me–FOR ME-a Black woman living in America!
When you attempt to make a rule which applies universally to a series of very diverse concrete situations, that’s making an abstraction and that has nothing to do with your color or gender. Though black and female you may well be, that does not mean you have an instant and intimate understanding of Jade’s relationship, nor mine, nor anyone else’s. Social categories like gender and race are not determinative in the micropolitical realm, though they certainly can affect it in huge ways.
So yeah: abstraction, Witchsistah.
People are shocked that I can read. Let me repeat that, I HAVE MET PEOPLE WHO WERE SHOCKED I COULD FUCKING READ!
So have I. Pretty much every day. As a gringo, I’m not supposed to be able to speak Portuguese, let alone read it. Perish the thought that I can WRITE it and write in it better than 90% of Brazilians. And this is a prejudice that I meet when I go up in front of hiring committees, who’ll mark any grammatical error I make twice as “proof” that I’m not fit to be teaching.
So I hear you there, believe me.
And with regards to “uppityness”, I recently had a very good friend warn me to not send a message regarding my current employment dilema to our union because it would be seen as an example of “gringo arrogance” – never mind the fact that my contract has been unilaterally ripped apart and that all the native-born Brazilians in my situation have sought and achieved redress.
So you see, Witchsistah, while I don’t know what it’s like to be a black woman in America, I do know the frustration of having to deal with prejudice on some of the same issues you point out.
Being an American Negress, I’m lucky that I can read and write and respond to such a wise, White, male, American ex-pat sage. Because, being married to a BW, he knows way more about being one than I do.
I don’t know if you’re just a fucking moron or a complete and utter asshole.
Very nice. Love the ad hominem.
But given that you’re so in favor of not taking abuse, let me point out that I’m not an ex-pat: I am an immigrant.
There’s a HUGE world of difference between those two things. I don’t have some American company backing me up. What I’ve achieved in my 20 years of life here in Brazil I did on my own hook and it has left me in an inferior position to compete in any number of areas of Brazilian economy and society.
Ex-pats get paid sometimes double their normal wage to endure the “hardships” that I deal with as a matter of course in my professional and personal life. I get paid a flat Brazilian salary and, at 43 years of age, it’s only been in the last three years that I’ve started to get anything like a living wage. Even so, I’m STILL far under what Americans consider to be “middle class”.
So please bull me no s*** about “ex-pats”, Witchsistah.
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One question for those who know: did they try to make an interview with him or to reach him for comment?
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@Mira
But Jade was the one who called Dr Laura complaining about what was going on with his racist friends, and she never (as I understand) said anything about him defending her or telling their friends to stop.
You’re an anthropologist, Mira: what does your professional training say about you trying to analyze a dense social situation, such as an interracial personal relationship, based on a brief telephone conversation like the one we heard?
I say this because you’re the one who’s constantly criticizing me for being too abstract here.
The woman’s on the phone, for Pete’s sake. She’s not going to sit down and break those relationships down for us, nor does Doc Meng even let her begin beyond one small example. “Friend” is a word that gets used to gloss a lot of different things in English, especially if the interlocutor is in a hurry. Is this “friend” as in “My husband’s dear old high school buddy Bubba who comes over to our house all the time to watch All-Star Wrasslin'”? Or is it “friend” as in “a co-worker of my husband who’s been to our house on business on two occasions and whom I’ve met at the company picnic”?
We. Don’t. Know.
Nor does Jade give us a good description of what’s going on. She’s on the phone with a nasty woman who doesn’t even let her finish describing the situation.
As such, it’s pretty useless to try to build some sort of deep sociological reading of Jade’s husband, let alone transform that into a psychological analysis of him, as many of our barroom socio-psychologists here seem to want to do.
@Jasmin
If she liked the way he was handling it, she wouldn’t have called into a television show.
I agree that she probably doesn’t like the way her husband’s handling it. Let’s look at what was really said:
CALLER: Hi, Dr. Laura.
SCHLESSINGER: Hi.
CALLER: I’m having an issue with my husband where I’m starting to grow very resentful of him. I’m black, and he’s white. We’ve been around some of his friends and family members who start making racist comments as if I’m not there or if I’m not black. And my husband ignores those comments, and it hurts my feelings. And he acts like –
SCHLESSINGER: Well, can you give me an example of a racist comment? ‘Cause sometimes people are hypersensitive. So tell me what’s — give me two good examples of racist comments.
CALLER: OK. Last night — good example — we had a neighbor come over, and this neighbor — when every time he comes over, it’s always a black comment. It’s, “Oh, well, how do you black people like doing this?” And, “Do black people really like doing that?” And for a long time, I would ignore it. But last night, I got to the point where it –
SCHLESSINGER: I don’t think that’s racist.
OK, so here’s the one concrete case she gives us: a neighbor and he’s making racially insensitive questions which make her feel that he believes that all black people act and think alike.
First of all, Doc Meng’s strictly right in this case: it’s not necessarily racist. It could be simple ethnocentrism. Ana, for example, gets this same sort of thing from black and white Americans all the time who presume that she’s the living oracle for Brazilians. Brazilians do this to me all the time, too: people are always saying shit like “Why is it that you Americans like war so much?”
Saying this doesn’t deny Jade’s experience of annoyance or claim that she should just swallow this sort of crap and smile. In a racially-charged situation like that which she probably lives in, ethnocentrism can easily be mistaken for racism because it is often a CODE for racism. But how to judge in a situation like this, especially if one has no personal experience with it?
Anyone who’s different in a community is going to be constantly annoyed by ethnocentrism. Is it racist? In my case, probably not. In Jade’s? History and her own probable experience in life are a pretty good indication that alot of these comments are not simply due to ethnocentric ignorance. But if her husband hasn’t studied black history, and given that he’s not black, it’s going to be difficult for him to react to these things the same way she does. In fact, he probably can’t even see them.
My experience with ethnocentrism is that the people who aren’t affected by it don’t notice it and the reactions the target has are thus often considered to be over-reactions. In fact, I’ve gotten resentful with many women in my life who simply couldn’t take the effort to try to see life through my eyes and who thought I was being “nasty” when I reacted to ethnocentrism. One of the foundations of my current relationship is that we both are aware of what the other partner faces – it helps in this respect that ethnocentrism and racism in Brazil are based on many of the same philosophical concepts, so it’s not that much of a stretch.
Jade’s problem is that she needs to get her husband to see this issue with black eyes and he probably has no prior emotional basis from which to draw an analog. I highly doubt – and I could be wrong – that people are openly n*****-baitning Jade to her face, given her reaction to Dok Meng’s n*****-baiting. I would bet that most of this crap that she sees flies completely under her husband’s radar.
That, however, is definitely a different situation than the one she’s dealing with now, where Doc Meng baited her to her face eleven times! I find it very hard to believe that an American white man married to an American black woman wouldn’t recognize that for what it is.
But if Jade simply wasn’t aware of who Dok Meng was, it’s understandable that she’d seek out help for her dilema. I mean, she loves her husband, but hates the fact that he can’t see the stuff that wears on her, daily. She’d like to be able to get him to see this problem.
Yeah, it’s a dilema. No wonder she wants advice.
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Another thing: do we even know for sure that he hasn’t given an interview yet?
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Thad,
I was under the impression this story wasn’t just about that one time Jade called Dr Laura. As I understand, she was asked in several TV shows and she gave several interviews about it.
Also, I don’t know about her husband being interviewed- that’s why I asked about it.
Looking at this transcript, though, it seemed like Jade wanted to talk about problems she was having with her husband, not his racist friends. Like he was the problem. Dr Laura’s answer kind of moved the whole thing in another direction.
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Interesting, by the way, that Nina Hanson is saying that her husband is being “very supportive” of her in the fight with Dok Meng.
How is it that her word on this has passed by our radars while her original complaint about her husband has seemingly condemned him?
Obviously, her husband can see one type of racism – the most obvious kind – but had some problem in seeing more subtle variations.
Also, it’s unclear whether or not “Jade’s” husband’s friends were actually using the “n word”. When she talks about it on CNN, she only talks about stereotypes which she often hears in her husband’s freinds’ discourse, in spite of the fact that the interviewer specifically asks her if they use the word.
What’s interesting about this is that Nina’s relationship seems to showcase a lot of the ambiguities about interracial interaction in the U.S. She seems very clear in her mind that her husband isn’t a racist. to the degree that she’s been allowed to talk about it, she hasn’t even qualified her husband’s friends as racist. She has said that they make racist comments and she says that she thinks they do this because, and I quote:
It was friends, just in conversation, making comments about black people, I think just being out of curiosity. And after awhile of hearing that over and over again, you start to wonder, “OK, is…” I started to question why I was.. the same comments kept on coming up over and over and over again and there were a lot of stereotypes.
Doesn’t sound like they were tossing the “n word” around there. In fact, she categorically denies that her husband ever used it. Sounds more like the crap she heard from the neighbor, detailed above.
New jargon watch term, by the way: “to be jaded”
To have one’s significant other not notice ethnic, racial, or religious commentary directed against one’s person.
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@Mira
Well, obviously the problem’s Jade’s husband. He’s not noticing what she’s noticing: the fact that his friends or neighbors are making the same comments over and over again.
It’s interesting that she first claims these are “questions” and that the initial example she gives Dok Meng is exactly this. I can well imagine the questions (and the black commentators here can correct me if they think my imagine isn’t doing a good job):
So why are there so many black people in jail?
Why are there so many black unwed mothers?
Why do black kids like that rap stuff? Do they think it’s right to call women bitches and use the “n word”?>
(Note: that last question is a good one for slipping in the “n word” if the person’s a racist and not just ignorant.)
Jade twice claims that the problem here is these “questions”, which she could first ignore or put down to simple stupid ignorance and curiosity. It’s when they began to repeat themselves, time after time, that she began to believe that she was being baited.
What she wanted to know was how to get her husband to see this. As siomeone who’s dealt with similar situations in my own personal life, that’s not an easy question to answer.
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Witchsistah
“There is no f*cking way as a BW I can AVOID them unless I seal myself in a room (which my introverted self would love to do) and prohibit ANY intake of media whatsoever (which my INTJ self would abhor but be able to cope with if I could write).”
INTJ high five! 😉
“Hell, he even understands that it’s wearing on me constantly to be the ONLY PoC at his family gatherings at times, and they’re NICE White people. He understands that I have to watch everything I do because I’m the Black People Representative when I’m there.”
What, you’re not used to being the Black People Representative? I had already been there, done that, got the t-shirt, way before I met my SO.
But I can’t be the only person whose white partner doesn’t have [overtly] racist relatives? I’ve met some ignorant family acquaintances, but not relatives.
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“Obviously, her husband can see one type of racism – the most obvious kind – but had some problem in seeing more subtle variations.”
This is probably true. I think it’s definitely going to be the case at times, in a relationship between a black woman and a white man, that the white guy will miss comments or gestures that are interpreted as racism by his partner, because he’s never had to personally deal with these things. He doesn’t have those experiences and he’s not been socialized to pick up on racial subtleties. And it’s important to note that Mrs. Hanson and her husband have only been married for 3 years, so still fairly new.
Now, what Mrs. Hanson originally mentioned (about her neighbor asking “Do black people like doing this?”), does not seem racist to me. In fact, my SO would ask me those kinds of questions and still does. And I get those kinds of questions from curious friends of his who feel like they know me well enough that they can ask. I guess the important aspect is intent. If the neighbor is asking “Do black people really like watermelon?” then that would be racist and ignorant to boot. But if he was asking “Do black people like Condoleeza Rice?” or something of that nature, I would consider it a sincere question (And try to explain that of course I don’t know what all black people like but here are some views from people I know).
“Also, it’s unclear whether or not “Jade’s” husband’s friends were actually using the “n word”.
No, it’s clear. She specifically stated that the friends use the n-word, in her original call. How do you think they got to discussing the word in the first place?
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Here’s what I found:
Hanson’s husband, construction worker Jay Hanson, declined to comment when reached at the couple’s Stratmoor Hills home in an unincorporated area on the city’s south side.
A friend, who identified himself as Gabe, said Jay did not want to talk. Gabe, who did not give his last name, said he is not one of the friends who use the N-word in front of Nita Hanson.
http://www.gazette.com/articles/word-103290-hanson-schlessinger.html
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Mira did you read some of those comments on that article? Sad and funny.
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I’m reading them now. I just wanted to share the only info I found about Nita’s husband and whether he gave any interviews.
This is a typical comment: “Waaaaa Get over it lady. Its ok for you people to use and no one else can? Quit wearing your feelings on your sleeves.”
Which is, more or less, exactly what dr Laura said in her “advice” to Nita.
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@Natasha
It’s not really clear if they were using the “n word”. Here’s the transcript…
SCHLESSINGER: No, no, no. I think that’s — well, listen, without giving much thought, a lot of blacks voted for Obama simply ’cause he was half-black. Didn’t matter what he was gonna do in office, it was a black thing. You gotta know that. That’s not a surprise. Not everything that somebody says — we had friends over the other day; we got about 35 people here — the guys who were gonna start playing basketball. I was going to go out and play basketball. My bodyguard and my dear friend is a black man. And I said, “White men can’t jump; I want you on my team.” That was racist? That was funny.
CALLER: How about the N-word? So, the N-word’s been thrown around –
Is she talking about her situation or is it a reaction to what Laura’s saying?
But even if the word gets used, I doubt the guy in question came out and said “You’re a n*****, given what she’s saying. What I’d bet is he asked a question like “Do you think it’s right for black rappers to be saying ‘n*****’ all the time?”
That may have passed for ignorance once. But if it were repeatedly asked, the Jade’s comments fit like a glove, don’t they?
This is a typical comment: “Waaaaa Get over it lady. Its ok for you people to use and no one else can? Quit wearing your feelings on your sleeves.”
Which is, more or less, exactly what dr Laura said in her “advice” to Nita.
And which, unfortuantely, is what A LOT of white people will say, independent of their racists feelings. It’s hard to explain to an American who has no notion of history or sociology (i.e. 90% of the country) why person A can use a word like that but person B can’t.
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Well, Jay and Nina’s docs are all over the net, so I’m sure their getting a boatload of hatemail from all sorts of different people these days.
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Well, it’s not just white Americans. The idea of language privilege don’t really exist in my culture (and neighborhood cultures). So it is something new to me, but it should not be for Americans.
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It’s clear from what she said that they used the word. She never claimed they used it on her. But they did use it, according to her. And, no, I don’t think they were using it as a way to ask her if she thought using it was right. Come on, let’s be realistic here.
But that’s not extremely significant in this situation. One can be a racist or have racist thoughts without having ever uttered that word.
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Her name is Nita. 🙂
And that’s strange, my SO’s nickname is Jay.
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And, no, I don’t think they were using it as a way to ask her if she thought using it was right. Come on, let’s be realistic here.
Neither do I. See my post above.
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Sorry, but I still don’t see taking racist abuse as a measure of good self-esteem. I still see it as the OPPOSITE. And I don’t feel if a PoC wants to AVOID and does try to AVOID their partner’s racist relatives and friends that it means said PoC has lower self-esteem.
I could have a day where I was reminded not only that I was a Black woman in America but what that means in America so I just do not have the spoons to be in the presence of someone’s senile, old racist Aunt because I just do not have the spoons to sit there wondering if/when Miss Millie was going to start off on her KKK tirade. Yeah, I can realize all day that she is this >< close to being able to barbecue with Satan in person and that the rest of the family doesn't agree with her racist notions (and she probably had them when she was in her right mind which was why folks were so worried about her spewing them in front of a Black person now those mind-to-mouth editing controls were gone from her brain), but that doesn't mean I'm in any sort of mood to hear them or deal with being their target.
Hell, I could have had a great Black girl day and not want to spoil it by being in Miss Minnie's presence with the same above thoughts and feelings. Therefore, I'd absent myself both times. TO ME, what that says about my self-esteem is that I feel I'm good and important enough to be protected from that in as much as I can be. And I have the right to protect and defend myself from that as much as is possible.
There are Blacks who could be suffering from PTSD (yes, even us tank-like darkies can get PTSD) in part or in toto, due to past dealings with racist attacks and abuse. Some suffer from depression and such acts can be triggering even if the actor is mentally challenged. But most of us may just not want to deal with THIS instance beause this time it's completely in our power to avoid it and we get ENOUGH that we can't avoid in daily life.
I'm sure there are many Black people, even in illiterate non-thinking America, that have the self-esteem of lions on steroids and could be in the presence of a hundred KKK members calling them all sorts of things but a child of God and do nothing but sigh pityingly at them while examining their manicures. But most of us aren't like that. And that doesn't make us bad or defective people.
So, I don't blame Nita for not wanting to be around people that ask a bunch of obnoxious "Black people" questions. I can see how that type of questioning is wearing and tiring after a while (a very short while), just like being treated as the ambassador from Blackistan or an alien from the planet Blackonia or some strange species of maybe-human. Yeah, they may not have/know many or any other Black people to interrogate, but that is NOT my problem nor is it the problem of any other Black person. I am no more under any obligation to answer said questions than I am to give the interrogator head.
And people do use Black questions as a way to make digs at Black people. Sometimes, folks are looking to start some bullshit on the sneak tip or to obliquely let you know just what they think of you and your kind.
Also, we do not know the whole story because Nita wasn't allowed to present the whole story. If she were a friend coming to me with this I'd ask her a bunch of questions that didn't get answered.
How long has this been going on? Did it start BEFORE your marriage?
How did it start and what was the progression?
Ask for a number of examples (direct quotes, "What exactly did so and so say?")
Was your husband/then-boyfriend/fiance around when these remarks were being made? If not, did you tell him about these remarks afterward? How long afterward? (oftentimes, racist folks who think they're slick will say this mess to their target when both parties are alone with no witnesses hardly ever in front of the White partner)
And the big one, have you told him how these actions make you feel? How did you tell him? Did you do it flippantly/jokingly ("Boy, your friends sure have some interesting ideas about Black people. Tee hee!") or were you more serious about it ("I don't like it when your friends ask me "Black people" questions. It makes me feel like they don't see me as a person and some of those questions are downright racist.") I can't tell you how many times I've had folks complain to me about their spouses/partners and they haven't said word one to their partner about the issue. Folks vent to their friends, neighbors and relatives about how big an asshole/bitch their partner is but are all "Everything's okay, honey" to the partner's face.
If he's really been clueless about this the whole time, then his next question will be along the lines of "Well, what do you want me to do about it?" Men see the bringing up of issues as about stating problems that need to be solved. Nita's gotta have a concrete game plan for dude to follow, "I want you to speak to them and tell them how their behavior has made me feel and for them to stop it." Depending on how receptive her husband is, she may or may not want to get into the realm of feelings regarding his response to the problem ("Your not sticking up for me makes me feel as though you don't care about what your loved ones are doing to me." "Your ignoring of this issue for so long makes me wonder if you respect me or see my Blackness as a negative and something to attack.") But this is all depending on her husband's reactions to how his loved ones' behavior has affected her.
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Sorry, but I still don’t see taking racist abuse as a measure of good self-esteem.
I got that the first three times you said it, Witchsistah.
And I don’t feel if a PoC wants to AVOID and does try to AVOID their partner’s racist relatives and friends that it means said PoC has lower self-esteem.
And nobody here is arguing that they should. You might want to stop building that strawman: we could use the hay.
…and she probably had them when she was in her right mind which was why folks were so worried about her spewing them in front of a Black person now…
Yes, she did, and we were all aware of them and there were several arguments about that, back in the day, so I hear from family elders. She obviously didn’t change her point of view. But just for the record (so we don’t get hyperbolic creep into this argument), this was hardly KKK-style “string ’em all up”-style racism.
I guess we just should have lobotomized her when she became senile, huh? Then the family could’ve said it was free from racist taint, right? that would have been the decent and humane thing to do, because Lord knows we wouldn’t want to be embarassed by her when guests come over.
Y’know, just an aside here, for someone who complains about the squishyness of the Bible (a complaint I share), you sure seem to put a lot of store in those two pop psychology stand-bys, PTSD and self-esteem.
So, I don’t blame Nita for not wanting to be around people that ask a bunch of obnoxious “Black people” questions.
I don’t think anyone here is blaming her, but you seem to enjoy setting scarecrows alight, so flame away, Witchsistah! 😀
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Natasha,
My boyfriend’s family has never had any problems with me, but he does have a really small family, and I haven’t met all of his relatives. They suspect 89-year-old Grandma Stephanie will freak out that I’m goy (non-Jewish) and Black, though no one seems to be sure which is a bigger deal (maybe the combination?), but she lives in Florida and doesn’t travel, so it’s currently looking unlikely that I will meet her, unless she comes to his graduation.
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I’m an INTJ also. Just throwing that out there. 🙂
As far as Nita/Jade is concerned she didn’t properly vet her husband. Simple. I’m sure his fri eds didn’t just start saying derogatory things once they got married. The sad thing is she probably ignored it when they were dating and thought marriage would quelch the animosity. This guy is a loser and she should have never married him in the first place. Any man (or person for that matter) that Allows his WIFE to be put in such a position and humiliated is worthless as far as I’m concerned.
Also I find it odd that Nita/Jade called dr. Laura. Thus woman has a track record of being rude to caller, sh!t talking, and being an a-hole overall. Dr. Laura would be the last person I call for advice, especially on something as sensitive as race within marriage. Nita would have been better off asking a woman how has been in an interracial marriage for advice as opposed to this racist POS.
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I don’t think anyone here is blaming her, but you seem to enjoy setting scarecrows alight, so flame away, Witchsistah!
And you seem to like being one, Thad.
Yeah, I know, I’m a dumb, ignorant American nigrah gal because I do NOT agree with you and am not interested in taking any advice from a White man on how, I, a Black woman, should deal with the racial-misogyny I get daily.
But yeah, racism isn’t like say REAL abuse or anything, so we darkies just need to walk it off and quit being so hypersensitive. In fact, we need to toughen ourselves up and get MORE exposure to it.
You’re the jerkwad who keeps insisting his wife automatically has better self-esteem because she chose to be in the presence of your senile, racist aunt (the one that the rest of your family was sooooo worried would spew her racist venom at the woman), implying that if a BW decided to ABSENT herself must have some sort of low self-esteem for not wanting to be bothered. Notice, I said ABSENT herself, meaning just not be there. I don’t see where it was so crucial that your wife be there for an aunt who may not even remember who she was the next hour. For me, if my presence was not crucial, I just would not go. I didn’t say I wouldn’t go but first I’d let each and every person concerned know why I wasn’t coming. Not necessary in order just to be plain not there.
And I’m not saying nor have ever implied that your wife’s actions were invalid. If she wanted to be there, that was her choice and her business. But it’s not LESS VALID or less laudible or less good somehow for a BW to decide she’d rather not go and simply not go.
You’re the one who keeps putting words in my mouth and accusing me of wanting to beat down (or have my husband do it) any random person who gives me the stank-eye including old, dying, White people. Your hyperbolic assumptions about me reveal your anti-American feelings (funny how ex-American immigrants to foreign countries suddenly forget they were born and raised in the same evil environment they now excoriate and now paint ALL Americans with the same brush). All you’re doing is going with the stereotype of the brainless, violent thug of an American Black person and being lazy and just throwing the label of Angry, Black bitch at me.
Where did I say ANYWHERE in my posts that Nita’s husband should be beating people down? Where did I say Nita’s husband should dole out violence, random or not, justified or not? That’s right. It’s not there. Just more of your projections of your ideas of not only intellectually inferior Americans (since being a Brazillian immigrant, you’re now totally free of the American taint-no pun intended), but intellectually and psychologically inferior Black Americans (us dumb niggers up here just don’t no any betta having done growed up in eevul America an’ all) who are non-thinking and violence driven.
You’re the one that keeps trying to imply I’m advocating violence to any who dare give me racist shit. You keep bringing up “questions” of what I wanted for you and your family to do to your aunt as if my hypothetical absence was supposed to be some sort of hint to the rest of you. It wasn’t. There was no implied, “Unless y’all contain granny/beat her down/drug her to sleep/put electrical tape on her mouth and strap her down, I’m not coming.” What you all did to/for/about granny would not have been my issue nor my business. I would have made my decision on what I felt I could deal with at that moment. In fact, if you would have come at me with that invective over my decision SIMPLY TO NOT GO, then yeah, you could STAY with auntie and ya kinfolk and not bother to ever come back.
You married the RIGHT woman. Let her put up with your racio-misogyny and xenophobia and have you call it “intellectualism.” I’m sure you’ll accuse me next of wanting to put a hit squad on your aunt next since you see ALL Americans (why not include yourself since you spent your formative years in America as an American) as mindless thugs.
This is so typical. No matter WHAT a BW says, nor HOW she says it, she’ll always get the rampaging, rhino-charging, Angry, Black Bitch trope slung at her somehow.
Dude, at least use all that education you have (I love how you treat people here as if they’ve not been to college and have higher degrees too. I guess you’re the last one they ever let into a Ph.D. program ever. Do they pay you NOT to tell anyone where you got it?) to come up with something ORIGINAL.
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Witchsistah said:
No matter WHAT a BW says, nor HOW she says it, she’ll always get the rampaging, rhino-charging, Angry, Black Bitch trope slung at her somehow.
Menelik says:
read your last THREE posts, and tell me how you might come across to an objective observer! let’s see whether you can handle this piece of advice without…
Menelik Charles
London England
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They suspect 89-year-old Grandma Stephanie will freak out that I’m goy (non-Jewish) and Black, though no one seems to be sure which is a bigger deal (maybe the combination?), but she lives in Florida and doesn’t travel, so it’s currently looking unlikely that I will meet her, unless she comes to his graduation.
Well, Jasmin, following Witchsistah’s advice, if the little biddy gives you any guff at all, I suggest that you storm out of the family meeting with your head held high. That’ll really show everyone involved that you’ve got high self-esteem. 😀
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Yeah, I know, I’m a dumb, ignorant American nigrah gal because I do NOT agree with you and am not interested in taking any advice from a White man on how, I, a Black woman, should deal with the racial-misogyny I get daily.
No, I don’t think you’re dumb or ignorant. I just think you’re acting like an assh***.
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Y,
“I’m an INTJ also. Just throwing that out there. :)”
Really? I never would have guessed. (Though I could have guessed that about Witchsistah… want to know how? LOL.)
Jasmin,
“My boyfriend’s family has never had any problems with me, but he does have a really small family, and I haven’t met all of his relatives. They suspect 89-year-old Grandma Stephanie will freak out that I’m goy (non-Jewish) and Black, though no one seems to be sure which is a bigger deal (maybe the combination?), but she lives in Florida and doesn’t travel, so it’s currently looking unlikely that I will meet her, unless she comes to his graduation.”
You know, you could always convert to Judaism? She’ll love you then! When I was dating a white Jewish guy, I used to go with him to Shabbat. His family liked teaching me all about their religion in preparation for my eventual conversion.
…Just kidding 😉 (about converting, not about Shabbat; I really did that.)
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I’m an INTJ also. Just throwing that out there.
Me three! 🙂
Natasha,
His immediate family is not super-religiously Jewish, so I’m not sure if that would help, since they don’t even go to temple like that. But we think his brother and father have overestimated their concern. Per my boyfriend, she already assumes I’m not White (per my first name). Plus she wrote him a letter saying that, “It’s nice to have a special friend.” 🙂
Thad,
It doesn’t make much sense to make it about you (and then complain when people criticize you for doing so). If Witchsistah isn’t commenting on you and your wife, which seems pretty evident to me, then putting yourself in it is basic sh*t-starting. The reason “Jade’s” situation is even up for discussion is because she expressed dissatisfaction. Since your wife hasn’t shown up to voice her dissatisfaction, you come off as unnecessarily defensive (and I’m still confused as to what self-esteem has to do with anything). Who are you trying to convince? And what are you trying to convince him/her of?
It seems like this whole conversation would be much more productive if all participants were operating from the original parameters, i.e., people (like Jade) who are dissatisfied with the way their partners react to racial harassment. All who are satisfied have no dog in the fight.
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^^
Almost forgot–you said yourself that if your wife was upset/wanted you to say something/etc. you would do what she asked, so doesn’t that mean that you react to situations by putting your partner’s wants first, which is the same advice the majority advocates for Jade and her husband? It appears that is the rule of thumb, not, “do X in Y situation”, “Y in Z situation”. I thought that was established as a common denominator way upthread, so I’m confused as to why this debate (over whether there’s a specific action to take with racist relatives) is still happening.
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Wow that makes 3 of us! That’s really suprising considering INTJ is the rarest Briggs-Meyers personality type. Sorry I can’t follow along with this long discussion. I’m using a phone. When I get home I will read through all of the comments. LoL
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Y,
That’s what I was thinking! I hope your computer is fixed!
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INTJs, in fact all INs, are more common on blogs and forums, especially on topics such as these, than they are in real life. Because they’re introverted and interested in ideas and discussion, it’s the perfect milieu.
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Jasmin, in case you missed it, this was Witchsistah’s communication to me a couple days ago:
I don’t know if you’re just a fucking moron or a complete and utter asshole.
She’s been tossing ad hominems like that around for awhile now, so I don’t feel out of line telling her what I think about her attitude. I’ve treated her with respect. Apparently, she can’t do the same to me.
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INTJs, in fact all INs, are more common on blogs and forums, especially on topics such as these, than they are in real life. Because they’re introverted and interested in ideas and discussion, it’s the perfect milieu.
I am INFJ and I thought “we” were the rarest. But there are many, many INFJs online.
I believe Natasha is right: online population and general population are not the same. There are many introverts online!
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…INFJ hug! *hug* 😀
I would’ve thought you were INTP; my SO is INTP and he has a similar conflict style to yours. I’m not sure if I’m INTJ or INFJ; I score both and can relate to both. INTJ is supposed to be more into science areas, and INFJ more into social issues and humanities, but I was honestly always good at and interested in both the sciences and [English] literature. I think, though, that I’m the latter. So that makes two!
Speaking of, I bet Jay (Hanson) is an introvert. (And Aba is INFJ or INTP. :))
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Oh, jeezis…
Let me guess: self-diagnosed, right? 😀
Man, seriously… why do Americans have this hard-core determinist bent? As a culture, you love coming up with lables and applying them as if this explained everything that there was to explain about you. Race is one of the great instances of this, but this looks like another one.
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^^^
Nope. My score on Briggs-Meyers has been the same since I was 12 and I just think its an interesting factoid that relates to my personality. I dont walk around saying “Im a INTJ, we are the rarest personality type and we are smarter than errbody! LOSERS!”
LMAO not at all I just find it interesting and discuss it when the topic comes up.
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Not self-diagnosed: I took in college for career assessment and again at a psychotherapist’s office with my SO. It’s not a straightjacket or a deterministic factor, and it’s certainly not that significant in the grand scheme of things, but it does help.
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These personality types are not popular in my country, but I took test(s) once and I got INFJ as my result. Nobody explained what it means, except that I’m an introvert. I am really interested in science (astronomy, for example) as well as humanities… I had no idea many scientists are INTJ.
And just for the record, the only self-diagnosed (online) thing I “have” is borderline-Asperger:
http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php
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Oh yes, and btw, that link is really, really weird. Among other things, it takes an… interesting view on evolution and Neandertals… It’s a mess.
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LOL, who “self-diagnoses” himself/herself as “intuition, introverted, thinking, and judgement”? Do you like your egg scrambled or fried, Thad? 😛
Anyway, I had to take one as part of a work training, and it wasn’t what I would’ve labelled myself, prior to taking it. I think I would’ve only kept the I and the J. But I’m not really into personality psych, so I haven’t really pondered what it’s supposed to mean, but I would label myself more emotional than the “INTP” characteristics are supposed to be, and I’ve mentioned more than a few times that hard sciences are not for me. I just texted my boyfriend and asked what he is, and he said INTP. Again, no idea what it’s supposed to mean (in terms of real-world applicability, not what the letters stand for).
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Another INTJ (I took the test in psychology class in college) here,
I’m sorry Thad, but I have to agree with Witchsistah on this one. It really isn’t okay for a WM to expect his black wife to take racist abuse from his relatives, even the old, senile ones. My husband told his own mother not to ‘talk to me that way because she didn’t know anything about what it was like to be black” and that is a direct quote. I was telling her about a racist incident that he and I had expericenced here in Norway and she came up with the usual BS about how I was being ‘too sensitive’ and ‘bringing racism into everything”. Thad, I would ask you one question. What if Aunt Minnie or cousin Bubba or whoever, spouted some racist nonsense in fromt of your kids? Would you still feel like you just gotta deal with it? Even at the expense of your children’s self esteem? I have a 5 year old daughter and my husband and I really can’t allow his relatives, or anyone else to abuse me. If don’t stand up for me, how will she learn to stand up for herself? If her father doesn’t stand up for both of us, even to his family members, how will she know that her future SO is supposed to stand up for her? I agree with you that you cannot change other people’s behavior, but you can still let them know their behavior is wrong. I would have my child know that she is a person worthy of being treated with kindness, curtesy, and respect by every human being she comes in contact with–including her relatives. I would have her know she doe not have to tolerate mean spiritedness or insults especially from her own relatives. I believe every person has two types of family. Those you share genes with and those you choose. The people you share genes with only get to be a par of the family you choose if they can love you enough not to hurt you on purpose. And if you tell them something hurts you and they continue to do that very thing, they’re hurting you on purpose. Thad, we only see my husband’s family about once or twice a year because they won’t acknowledge their bad behavior, much less change it. We couldn’t change their behavior, so we changed ours. Was that an easy choice? No, but it was a necessary one. I, like Withsistah, refuse to have my self esteem battered on, and my husband refuses let his wife and child’s self eeteem be battered on–ESPECIALLY by family menbers.
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@Blakgenius
It really isn’t okay for a WM to expect his black wife to take racist abuse from his relatives, even the old, senile ones.
Apply some of that genius, please, and tell me who said it was OK and where?
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Thad,
As usual, you attack people who don’t agree with you. Back at you, I didn’t say YOU said it was okay or that anyone else did, so your nasty, sarcasm is uncalled for. You’re the one who brought up Aunt Minnie and YOU said you didn’t say anything. If you don’t speak out when someone’s being racist, or doing anythiing else wrong–well evil does flourish when good people do nothing. If you don’t speak out–and you didn’t, you give tacit agreement. And you still didn’t answer my question:
“What if Aunt Minnie or cousin Bubba or whoever, spouted some racist nonsense in fromt of your kids? Would you still feel like you just gotta deal with it? Even at the expense of your children’s self esteem?”
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@blakgenius
I didn’t say YOU said it was okay or that anyone else did…
If no one said that it was OK for people to take abuse from relatives – particularly me – then why do you preface your comments with “I’m sorry Thad…”, as if you were responding to my support of said position? You’re sorry for what, exactly, given that you’re not going against a single thing I’ve said or implied above?
Or did you just want to let me know that you’re sorry, in general?
Blakgenius, it seems pretty obvious to me that you were jumping on a bandwagon without looking where it was headed or who was driving it.
Furthermore, to point this fact out, using an ironic tone, is hardly an attack.
You’re the one who brought up Aunt Minnie and YOU said you didn’t say anything.
Ahn, so now we come to the meat of the matter. In spite of your claim that you’re “not saying I said it was OK”, you actually believe that I did say this.
Genius, read what I said again, please. First of all, my aunt ended up not saying anything that one could reasonably take offence at. Secondly, not only me, but the entire family, went out of their way to “say something about it” BEFORE anything happened (so it’s hardly as if one could claim that the potential for such behavior was ignored). And finally, as I made clear several times, Im follow my wife’s lead in these matters. Ana decided that this was a negligible problem.
So I’m a bit bemused as to how warning someone about a situation, being on guard for it and following said person’s decisions regarding it can somehow magically be transformed into “thinking it’s OK for one’s spouse to suffer racist abuse”.
“What if Aunt Minnie or cousin Bubba or whoever, spouted some racist nonsense in fromt of your kids? Would you still feel like you just gotta deal with it? Even at the expense of your children’s self esteem?”
This question has already been answered. She probably would have been wheeled out of the room and people would have fallen all over themselves in embarasment, apologizing. I would have followed Ana’s lead. As for children and their self-esteem… You seriously think that if we had kids this would have been their first brush with racism? Or that I should wrap them in a nice little cocoon where they never encounter racism? Or that I should pretend to them that they don’t have relatives – on both sides of the family – who don’t have racist attitudes? You think that keeping them in the dark about this is going to aid in their character formation, do you?
What do you suggest I do to protect my mestiça children’s precious self-esteem, for example, when my black mother-in-law starts chattering at them about good and bad hair and wants to take hair-straighteners (including formeldahyde) to their heads? Any pertinent advice on explaining to them that Grandma is a bit whacko on this point and why that’s so…?
Racism is hardly a “whites only” problem when it comes to raising black and mestiça children, Genius.
The fact of the matter is, at least in our families (both Ana and mine), you don’t punish senile elderly relatives for what they MIGHT say. In your family, mileage obviously varies.
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Thad,
“Blakgenius, it seems pretty obvious to me that you were jumping on a bandwagon without looking where it was headed or who was driving it.
Furthermore, to point this fact out, using an ironic tone, is hardly an attack.
“Apply some of that genius, please, and tell me who said it was OK and where?”
You imply that I need to use my brain. An implied insult is still an insult. Since I feel my thoughts are as well thought out and rather more consistent than yours, and I haven’t said or implied that you are unintelligent, why did you go there? Nevermind, I can see you’re the kind who can’t take responisbilty for your own behavior or stand having anyone disagree with you. So don’t bother answering that question.
“You seriously think that if we had kids this would have been their first brush with racism? Or that I should wrap them in a nice little cocoon where they never encounter racism? Or that I should pretend to them that they don’t have relatives – on both sides of the family – who don’t have racist attitudes? You think that keeping them in the dark about this is going to aid in their character formation, do you?
I think NO ONE, especially kids, should have to put up with racism from THEIR OWN RELATIVES. There’s a big difference between that and warning them about racism in the world in general. Of course you should tell your children to expect crazy talk from their racist relatives, but that is different from expecting them to put up with it. Like you, my husband and I both have racist relatives. My child is not and will not be expected to put up with their meanness. They (our relatives) will be warned to censor what comes out of their mouths once and then I just won’t take my child or myself around them. You and your wife can do whatever you want, If you two want to put up with racism on both sides of your family that’s your business. I still don’t see what’s wrong with telling racists, in your family or no, that their behavior is NOT okay, though. As for old Aunt Minnie, she can’t help being senile, but I wouln’t subject kids or myself to her. However, you if want to, again that’s really none of my business. Family should be the people you go to for love, support and comfort when other people are treating you badly. They shouldn’t BE the people who ARE treating you badly. Personally I don’t believe in family at any cost.
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You imply that I need to use my brain.
Yes I did. I did not imply that you DON’T have a brain, I implied you weren’t using it.
Indicating, as you did, that I somehow support the idea that racist abuse is OK is a pretty brainless position.
Since I feel my thoughts are as well thought out and rather more consistent than yours…
If that’s the case, how did you manage to miss the fact that I don’t think racist abuse is OK?
Pretty odd position for a genius to be in, don’t you think? I mean, given that I’ve made that point about a half a dozen times now, above… 😀
At worst, I caught you being lazy and perhaps dogmatic. If you want to take that as an indication of stupidity, that’s your call, not mine.
I think NO ONE, especially kids, should have to put up with racism from THEIR OWN RELATIVES.
Again – and this has been reiterated time and again, above – what we THINK should happen and what actually HAPPENS are two different things. I don’t think that my wife should have to put up with racist and sexist profiling everytime she travels to the U.S., but she does. My job isn’t to pitch a fit and scream and whine when that occurs: it’s to follow her lead and back her up.
When it comes to kids, my job is to let them know the realities of what is going on and why. Whether or not I THINK they should have to deal with those realities is entirely beside the point: the fact is, they’ll have to deal with them.
And again, it’s amazing that I have to make this point time and time again to a self-described genius, but who has ever said that anyone has to put up with anything?
You are making a strawman here, genius and I’d like to know why.
And here’s another instance of the same strawman…
I still don’t see what’s wrong with telling racists, in your family or no, that their behavior is NOT okay, though.
No one here ever said anything of the sort was wrong, so why are you pretending that this is being argued?
Do you often do this, Blakgenius? Argue against what you think a person SHOULD be saying rather than against what they are actually saying? Doesn’t seem very genius-like to me.
They (our relatives) will be warned to censor what comes out of their mouths once and then I just won’t take my child or myself around them.
So let me get this straight: because black grandma – my wife’s mother – has a “thing” about “bad hair”, you are SERIOUSLY suggesting that I prevent my kids from ever seeing her?
Is that it, Blakgenius?
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Thad,
Intellectual pretentiousness is hardly a persuasive argument style. Nor is putting words in another person’s mouth. However, it may serve well if one is feeling overly defensive.
Perhaps you could read more critically.
Blakgenius said: “You and your wife can do whatever you want, If you two want to put up with racism on both sides of your family that’s your business.”
In light of her above statement, your final question appears to be designed to be solely argumentative. Why do you find her statements about how she and her husband handle such situations so personally offensive and off-putting?
Is it because she doesn’t handle it the way you do, or is because there is something about her choice that makes you defensive about your choice? Or do you just get pissed whenever someone else dares to disagree with you?
I guess it is easier to pick a fight with strangers on a blog than take a stand with the people we know and love.
Out of sheer curiosity (I don’t have a mixed-race child in this fight), I wonder how you would handle such a situation with your child and a racist relative when your Anna wasn’t there to “take the lead” in such matters? Whip out your cell and ask her what to do?
It is one thing to take advice and guidance from one’s POC spouse in such a situation and entirely another thing to evade taking action, making a decision, or taking a stand without them “taking the lead.”
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Sigh…
Listen, SWW, who’s putting words in people’s mouths? Certainly not me. Blackgenius, meanwhile, has three times now indicated that I’m saying things that I’m not saying.
Solely argumentative? Hardly. Genius seems to be claiming that children should not be subjected to relatives’ racism. So my question is strictly on point: should I not subject them to grandma’s weird hair fetish, then?
Y’see, Genius can see racism when it’s a senile 90 year old white woman who might spout it. She’s all for cutting family ties there. Fair enough. I want to know if the same straight-up rules and regulations apply to the kids’ 69 year old black grandmother.
Or is racism not self-esteem destroying for children when it comes out of black mouths?
Genius is oddly silent on that point. I wonder why?
As for Blackgenius handling whatever she handles in her family, I’ve not said word one about it. Scroll up: find me one comment – just one – that I’ve made about her family. Genius is the one who jumped in here and started making odd presumptions about how I deal with my family – presumptions, mind you, that are in complete contradiction with what I’ve actually said.
So riddle me this, my southern belle: how is it that Blackgenius’ building strawmen and complaining about the presumptive way I deal with things has suddenly become my attack on her?
Furthermore, if I sound defensive, it’s because an unethical person is taking swipes at me using strawmen.
I guess it is easier to pick a fight with strangers on a blog than take a stand with the people we know and love.
Are you being careless or cynical, Southern Belle, seeing as how you’re picking a fight with me, for no visible purpose?
Blakgenius jumped in and picked a fight with ME by claiming that I somehow think racist abuse is OK. How has this has become me picking a fight with her? I never even addressed her until she made the assinine statement that she disagreed with me because supposedly I’m claiming that racist abuse is fine and dandy.
Now here you come, jumping into a fight whose origins you obviously haven’t even bothered to read, tsk-tsking me for being aggressive. Is this what they call “contributing to an argument” down south these days? Because over here in Rio, we call just call it hypocrisy.
Out of sheer curiosity (I don’t have a mixed-race child in this fight), I wonder how you would handle such a situation with your child and a racist relative when your Anna wasn’t there to “take the lead” in such matters? Whip out your cell and ask her what to do?
No, I’d call you, seeing as how you seem to feel you know all that there is to know about me and my family.
Let’s talk pretensious behavior: calling someone “defensive” when they are being insulted and attacked and presuming to lecture them on manners when they are simply defending themselves is pretty damned pretensious if you ask me. Again, I guess they do things differently down south.
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Thad said:
“Y’see, Genius can see racism when it’s a senile 90 year old white woman who might spout it. She’s all for cutting family ties there. Fair enough. I want to know if the same straight-up rules and regulations apply to the kids’ 69 year old black grandmother.
Or is racism not self-esteem destroying for children when it comes out of black mouths?
Genius is oddly silent on that point. I wonder why?”
No, Thad, I was not silent on that point. You were just too busy defensive to pay attention. I said:
“Like you, my husband and I both have racist relatives. My child is not and will not be expected to put up with their meanness. They (our relatives) will be warned to censor what comes out of their mouths once and then I just won’t take my child or myself around them.”
OUR RELATIVES, Thad, not just his.
Thad you also claim:
“Blakgenius jumped in and picked a fight with ME by claiming that I somehow think racist abuse is OK. ”
I don’t think it’s okay for a spouse of one race to not defend his/her spouse of a different race, when family members make racist comments. That is my opinion and I stand by it. It not picking a fight if someone disagrees with you or has an opinion that is in contradition to yours.
Thad you also said:
“Let’s talk pretensious behavior: calling someone “defensive” when they are being insulted and attacked and presuming to lecture them on manners when they are simply defending themselves is pretty damned pretensious if you ask me. Again, I guess they do things differently down south.”
Witchsistah, Southern White Woman, and Jasmine, too aren’t attacking you and neither am I. We disagree with you, and we’re pointing out your inconsistancies. You’re feeling attacked only because you’re trying defend a position that basically indefensible. The truth is, you can’t tolerate ANYONE disagreeing with you or giving an opinion contrary to the opinions of the great Dr. Thaddeus.
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“Like you, my husband and I both have racist relatives. My child is not and will not be expected to put up with their meanness. They (our relatives) will be warned to censor what comes out of their mouths once and then I just won’t take my child or myself around them.”
OK, fine, but this really doesn’t answer directly the point I brought up so let me place it again, out in the open, where all can see:
You then think that I should keep the children away from their 69 year old black grandmother because of this elderly woman’s views on “bad hair” – views, I might add, that she shares with 80% of the black women of her generation and which are not going to change (we’ve already had several go-’rounds on this point)?
You SERIOUSLY think isolating the kids from Grandma because of her racist view on hair is going to make them better human beings and give them better self-esteem?
I’m not talking about what you think in the abstract, Blakgenius: I want you to address this very specific instance and say whether or not you’d apply your golden rule here.
I don’t think it’s okay for a spouse of one race to not defend his/her spouse of a different race, when family members make racist comments.
What a coincidence! Neither do I!
This is now the FOURTH time you’ve mounted a strawman and burned it, Blakgenius. In NONE of the comments above do I say or even imply that it’s okay “okay for a spouse of one race to not defend his/her spouse of a different race, when family members make racist comments”, and yet here you are once again, impying that I defend such a position.
Quit being jerk, please, and argue in good faith.
Witchsistah, Southern White Woman, and Jasmine, too aren’t attacking you and neither am I. We disagree with you, and we’re pointing out your inconsistancies.
Bulls***. Implying that I’m in favor of passively accepting racist abuse or standing by and letting my wife take it on the chin while I do or say nothing is not “pointing out my inconsistencies”: it is attacking me by taking umbrage with positions I have never articulated.
It is dishonest and cheap, Blackgenius. And you want to know the truth? The truth is you haven’t even ENGAGED with what I think or what I’ve said. I wonder if you even can?
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Blackgenius, seeing as how you’ve established that it’s perfectly OK to imply that someone is saying what they are not and then attack them on those grounds, let me just say this, based 100% on your words above…
I’m sorry, Blakgenius, but I don’t agree that children should be beaten in order to improve their self-esteem. You and your husband can do whatever you want and if that includes whipping your kids to “build their character”, that’s your business. I don’t think ANYONE, especially children, should have to put up with violence at the hands of their own relatives, however. Personally, I don’t believe in discipline at any cost. If my wife were to beat my children, I would not stand passively by and let it happen.
That is my opinion and I stand by it. It’s not picking a fight if someone disagrees with you or has an opinion that is in contradition to yours.
Nice, huh? Just presume someone’s saying something outrageous and you can let loose with all the self-righteous aggression you want, and make yourself look like a stand-up moral person, besides.
I will say one thing, though, that’s quite serious: given the fact that you’re going out of your way to repeatedly attack positions which I have not taken, you obviously have some hard-core pent up anger regarding this issue which needs an outlet.
I would suggest that you look long and hard at who, in your life, is doing the things you claim I’m doing. They should be the real focus of your discontent and not folks like me on the internet.
(I feel it’s only fair that I offer you my dimestore personality analysis of your person, having had to put up with yours of mine.)
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Abagond, if you feel the need to delete this, so be it. But if that’s the case, I respectfully ask that you delete all the cheap shots Blakgenius has taken at me, above. At least I have the common courtesy to clearly signal when I’m spouting rhetorical BS.
For my part, all this can stay up as is: it’s an interesting and informative discussion, not the least because it shows of common rhetorical tricks and how to deal with them.
Something tells me, however, that while BG is fine with dishing out BS, she won’t be so happy with taking it, even when the BS comes back to her clearly labled and in the precise form in which she launched it.
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@ Thad,
You said:
“You then think that I should keep the children away from their 69 year old black grandmother because of this elderly woman’s views on “bad hair” – views, I might add, that she shares with 80% of the black women of her generation and which are not going to change (we’ve already had several go-’rounds on this point)?”
Yes, I do. I thought that was clear from what I did say, but apparently it wasn’t, so let me be real specific. I would definately keep my child away from grandma or anyone else who couldn’t refrain from filling my daughter’s head with destructive nonsense which will turn girls into bimbos. Yes, Thad, I think the opinions of family members is likely to influence my daughter if she’s hearing them.
You just can’t stand it that I think you’re wrong and said so.
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Wow.
No, it’s not that I can’t stand it that you think I’m wrong. I guess I’m just not used to dealing with absolutists. I realize that many Americans seem to increasingly believe that children are fragile little artifacts with egg-shell-thin personalities which must be protected at all costs. It’s just odd to actually meet one.
If I were to really try to keep my daughter away from “anyone else who couldn’t refrain from filling [her] with destructive nonsense which will turn girls into bimbos”, then that would mean no T.V., no public schooling (and few private schools – homeschooling would be the best way to go), certainly no internet. No contact with the neighbors or the kids on her street. Little to any contact with any of her relatives.
In short, I’d be locking my daughter in our house and raising her away from any real social interaction in the name of protecting her “self-esteem”.
Sounds like a recipe for making deeply unhappy, sociopathic children, if you ask me.
Rather than try to censor life of anything that might disturb her (and I’m wondering how I’d explain to her that we live in a nice apartment while the people across the valley live in shanty towns… I better paint our windows black, just to make sure!), I would prefer to teach her to think for herself and be there when she needs backup or questions answered.
I CERTAINLY wouldn’t keep her from seeing her grandmother. I would encourage her to challenge her grandmother’s views and both her parents would classify said views as unacceptable in front of her and tell grandma to knock it off. But we WOULDN’T keep her away from grandma.
I guess in Brazil we’re just a bit more comfortable with people’s warts and ambiguities. My mother-in-law is a retired history teacher who was very active against the military regime, back in the day. She’s an incredibly intelligent and energetic woman and I think that my daughter would learn far more that’s good than bad from her. I’d rather she see Grandma for what she is, in all her complexities and contradictions, than insist that Grandma be perfect.
(Furthermore, given the number of black women I see in the U.S. with massively processed hair, I’m guessing that if you were to take your rule seriously, there’re not too many black, female relatives you’d let your daughter see. In fact, looking at the few posted photos of the black female posters who show up here, I’d say that there’s a very good chance that your hair is also processed to a fare-thee-well, BG. It seems to be the “in” style among young black American women these days. but I digress…)
Right now, I’m watching our niece Mayara grow up. Our main concern isn’t grandma: it’s that Mayara is living in a very poor part of town where her horizons are extremely restricted. All the women around her are housewives, basically. All the little girls are fans of Barbie. The kind of “bimbo” stuff she deals with daily isn’t going to be measureably impacted by grandma’s views on hair, which all the other adults in the family take pains to ridicule whenever she brings them up. Our main struggle has been getting Mayara into a decent school, downtown, which has a wide variety of diverse students of all colors and classes. Certainly, Mayara is going to have to deal with some real a**hole snobs and racists from the south zone when she gets in. ,
Maybe we should just yank her and keep her out in the crap school she’s in out in surburbia, where she’ll never have to deal with classists and racists (but where she’ll also be taught that a woman’s proper place is in the kitchen)? Yeah, let’s apply those absolute rules to a little girl’s life.
The problem with your American-style black-or-white, coke-or-pepsi, chevvy-or-ford dichotic way of looking at the world is that it misses these subtleties and ambiguities. things are either this or that for you folks: never some of this, some of that and a whole bunch of the other. But when I look around me, I rarely see things in such strict, dichotic terms and it’s a wonder to me that any rational, intelligent person can view the world that way.
That’s why I think these “rules” people are trying to establish here are so much hot air, blowing in the wind. Life is a hell of a lot more complicated than the simplistic terms you seem to think in, Blackgenius.
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Thaddeus said:
I’m sorry, Blakgenius, but I don’t agree that children should be beaten in order to improve their self-esteem. You and your husband can do whatever you want and if that includes whipping your kids to “build their character”, that’s your business. I don’t think ANYONE, especially children, should have to put up with violence at the hands of their own relatives, however. Personally, I don’t believe in discipline at any cost. If my wife were to beat my children, I would not stand passively by and let it happen.
Menelik says:
if she does, indeed, beat her child(ren) then I’ve little doubt Blakgenius is also the type of individual to insist that a man should NEVER put his hand on a woman. Such wicked double standards abound in the minds of many a woman.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Thad,
You said:
f I were to really try to keep my daughter away from “anyone else who couldn’t refrain from filling [her] with destructive nonsense which will turn girls into bimbos”, then that would mean no T.V., no public schooling (and few private schools – homeschooling would be the best way to go), certainly no internet. No contact with the neighbors or the kids on her street. Little to any contact with any of her relatives.”
Extrapolating from family members to the whole world, are we? Like I said, whatever you and your wife do is your business, you can choose to have blood relatives as a part of your life at any cost. OUR family will be of our choosing. It includes some people related to us by blood and some who aren’t. It ONLY includes the people who can give their love and support. No one can protect their children from all the racism the world has to offer, but I can and will protect my child from racism by her own family members. Family is the people and the place a person can have peace and respite from all the crap the world dishes out. As I said before, NO ONE should have to tolerate racist crap from their own family.
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Mc, I have no proof whatsoever that BG beats her kids, just like BG has no proof whatsoever that I think the racist abuse of my wife by family members is “acceptable”.
My point with that story is that as long as BG feels OK about making s*** up and arguing against it, as if I supported it, I should be allowed to rare back and invent away myself.
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BlackGenius
Be Careful. We have to watch what we say. Even on a blogs like this, which is written by a black person EVEN HE still cares about upsetting the delicate sensitivities of whites. Abagond cares more about what white people say than what black people say.
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Extrapolating from family members to the whole world, are we?
Why not? Your kids spend far much more time around non-family members than they do around family members. If you’re really worried about the “negative effects” peoples’ opinions might have on their self-esteem, why stop at the family?
Like I said, whatever you and your wife do is your business, you can choose to have blood relatives as a part of your life at any cost.
Just like it’s you and your husband’s business whether or not you beat your children: you can choose disciple at any cost.
Again, you’re building a strawman, BG. I did not say or imply “at any cost”, which is what you’re arguing against.
Family is the people and the place a person can have peace and respite from all the crap the world dishes out.
We have completely different views of family, then. yours, oddly enough, seems to come closest to the “family at any costs” view you claim to repudiate. You seem to want family to be perfectly supporting of you and yours. In the real world, that never happens: neither on a social or an individual level. If you were to seriously apply your ideology to your life (and I expect that you don’t, actually), you’d soon fine yourself quite alone.
As I said before, NO ONE should have to tolerate racist crap from their own family.
Sixth strawman, BG. You sure do like them! No one is arguing that anyone “should have to tolerate racist crap from their own family”. It’s not a question of “should” in my book: I’m not the one laying down cut and dried (but ultimately abstract) rules: you are, sister. You’re the one who seemingly has an idealized playbook to deal with every situation, not me. I think no “shoulds” at all about this sort of situation. I think it’s damned complex and each situation needs to be played on its merit.
Seriously: you’re claiming that because grandma thinks curly hair is “bad”, grandaughter should never be allowed contact with her. That’s a pretty heavy “should”, BG. My point is I think we can achieve a positive resolution of that situation without cutting grandma out of our lives and that the good outweighs the bad in this case.
The only one tossing “shoulds” around here is you, BTG, so please quit being a damned hypocrite and stop lecturing me about your supposedly superior way of dealing with race conflicts in the family.
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Thad,
Thad said: “Are you being careless or cynical, Southern Belle, seeing as how you’re picking a fight with me, for no visible purpose?”
Neither, unlike some folks, I can’t sit silently with my mouth shut while you spout snide, unprovoked insults at my friend, BlakGenius, just because she happened to disagree with you.
I don’t know how you enlightened, passive, relativistic, so-called intellectuals down there in Rio do it……..but I was raised here in the backward, ignorant South to stick up for my friends and loved ones.
See, I am a member of BlakGenius’ “family of our own choosing” and we stick by each other no matter what. Loyalty runs deep here……….but I guess you wouldn’t understand….since that’s one of those backward, ignorant, “southern things.”
But If I followed your example, I guess I should have kept my mouth shut, let her “take the lead,” since after all, as a person of color, she has far more experience dealing with folks like you than I do. However, for me, its a matter of principle, and I don’t wait for that elbow in the ribs to tell me this the “time to take a stand.”
I just know and act.
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Thad,
Thad said: “Y’see, Genius can see racism when it’s a senile 90 year old white woman who might spout it. She’s all for cutting family ties there. Fair enough. I want to know if the same straight-up rules and regulations apply to the kids’ 69 year old black grandmother.
Or is racism not self-esteem destroying for children when it comes out of black mouths?
Genius is oddly silent on that point. I wonder why?”
Hmmmm. I find it interesting here how you make the assumption that BlakGenius has a racial double standard when it come to dealing with racist relatives. Why do you assume this? It seems to be a rather racist assumption to make here, to assume that because she is black that she is naturally “ok” with black relatives spouting racial nonsense.
Is Dr. Thad engaging in some projection here? Did you make this assumption about BG having a racial double standard on this issue perhaps because YOU do?
It does appear that perhaps your “sheet is showing,” Dr. Thad.
And her supposed “silence” that you referred to? Well, perhaps it has not occurred to you, but some people on this blog actually do have a life outside of the blogosphere, and we do not sit around anxiously waiting to read your next post or write a response to it. We do have lives beyond your vapid, verbal contortions and twisted rhetoric.
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Thad,
One more thing, then I’m done discussing this.
You said:
“Furthermore, given the number of black women I see in the U.S. with massively processed hair, I’m guessing that if you were to take your rule seriously, there’re not too many black, female relatives you’d let your daughter see. In fact, looking at the few posted photos of the black female posters who show up here, I’d say that there’s a very good chance that your hair is also processed to a fare-thee-well, BG. It seems to be the “in” style among young black American women these days. but I digress…)”
Most of my female relatives who have the processed hair don’t go on and on about how it’s better/prettier than my natural hair (yes, I do wear my hair natural, see my website). A few do, and I do keep her away from them. The rest wear theirs natural like me. You accused me of making assumptions about you; now who’s the pot calling the kettle black?
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Neither, unlike some folks, I can’t sit silently with my mouth shut while you spout snide, unprovoked insults at my friend, BlakGenius, just because she happened to disagree with you.
Hmmm. I smell proxies and sock puppets here. 😀
Let me make this perfectly plain, Belle: my ONLY disagreement with BG is regarding the pretentious gall she shows in presuming things about the way I deal with life and then saying that she disagrees with that.
It’s damned easy to put words into peoples’ mouths and then argue against those and this is apparently your “genius'” pal’s strong rhetorical suit. If she doesn’t want people responding to her in anger, then perhaps she should stop being a jerk and stop arguing in bad faith, hmmm?
Just a thought.
I don’t know how you enlightened, passive, relativistic, so-called intellectuals down there in Rio do it……..but I was raised here in the backward, ignorant South…
Yes, and it shows, but I try to make allowances.
I guess you wouldn’t understand….since that’s one of those backward, ignorant, “southern things.”
Hey, your words dear heart, not mine. But if you want to classify your region and its inhabitants – TWICE – as “backward and ignorant”, who am I to argue with the expert opinion of a native? 😀
But If I followed your example, I guess I should have kept my mouth shut….
Yeah, I guess you should have, particularly as your original whine was about “unprovoked attacks” on your buddy after she launched a wholly unprovoked strawman attack on me. But hell, sugah, if you want a part of the argument, welcome to it! Just don’t act the poor aggrieved little woman who’s being attacked by the big, bad intellectual when – by your own admission – it’s you who can’t keep your mouth shut when you see a pal verbally dissing a complete stranger.
However, for me, its a matter of principle… I just know and act.
Which is, of course, the rallying cry of ignorant bigots and busy-bodies the world over: “I know wrong when I see it and feel completely justified in letting loose, with both barrels, at whatever I think is wrong”.
If you’re the kind of creep who picks your fights based on your friends, Southern Gal, independent of whether or not your friends are acting like jerks, you’re a simple thug and no white knight.
That’s nothing to be proud of in my book, but obviously you have different moral values.
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Oops! Here’s the website address:
http://rainbowvikings.webs.com
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Thad,
Thad quoted SWW: “Out of sheer curiosity (I don’t have a mixed-race child in this fight), I wonder how you would handle such a situation with your child and a racist relative when your Anna wasn’t there to “take the lead” in such matters? Whip out your cell and ask her what to do?”
Thad said: “No, I’d call you, seeing as how you seem to feel you know all that there is to know about me and my family.”
Now Thaddy, aren’t you doing the very thing you accused BG of doing with your “black grandma” scenario?
Are you going to answer the question? Or are you going to continue to evade it with sarcastic non-answers? Perhaps you should re-read my post; I didn’t say crap about your family. I was addressing your insults to my friend and closed with that still unanswered question.
I don’t really expect an answer at this point, though, unless it is more of your evasive letting someone else handle the problem. I would love to be proved wrong on this one, though.
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Now Thaddy, aren’t you doing the very thing you accused BG of doing with your “black grandma” scenario?
What, being sarcastic to a pretentious fool whose only reason for posting here is the logic of a hooligan?
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All I have to say is that a man who doesn’t stand up for his wife is a waste of oxygen and skin, regardless of color.
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As a purely tangental aside, it’s interesting to note, however, that Blakgenius would probably have “white’ on her birth certificate in Brazil.
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Yeah, RDKirk. And a woman who beats her children ’til they’re mentally retarded is likewise a waste of atmosphere.
Lucky we don’t have either of those two types of people here, huh?
While we’re at it, why don’t we all just express our heartfelt condemnation of pedophiles, organ-traffickers and people who drown kittens and puppies, hmm?
I’m sure that will make everyone feel much better about themselves!
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By the way, Southron, do you know what the “have you stopped beating your wife yet?” defence is, in rhetoric?
It’s asking a question which presumes false initial conditions in such a way that no matter how one responds to it, one is screwed.
When I asked BG if she’d prohibit her child from seeing a black grandmother who believed in “bad hair”, it wasn’t a “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” kind of question: I seriously wanted to see how far BG’s absolutism on this point would stretch, based PRECISELY on what she said.
In your case, you are asking “I wonder how you would handle such a situation with your child and a racist relative when your Anna wasn’t there to “take the lead” in such matters? Whip out your cell and ask her what to do?”
This presumes a set of affairs that hasn’t been discussed yet. My earlier comment had to do with remarks directed towards ANA, not children. You are stretching them to presume that somehow they apply to kids as well. So no if I say “Yes, I’d call her”, I’ll look like a poltroon for not defending my kids. If I say “No, I wouldn’t call her,” I look as if I were contradicting my earlier statement.
Classic “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?” rhetoric, Southron. So let’s do what one should when confronted by this sort of dirty trick: break the question down in parts.
1) My original statement – let Ana take the lead – presumes that comments are being directed to an adult human being who is fully capable of deciding for themselves what response is appropriate. I would definitely follow Ana’s lead in such a case as it would be presumptious for me to presume that she was unable to speak or decide for herslef how she wanted to react.
2) In the case of children, the situation is obviously different because children and full-grown women are not one and the same thing. (Your question seems to presume that they are, South, and you should really think about that presumption some more). Children need an adult to step between them and the nastier aspects of the world and I would certainly do that.
3) What I would do or say depends on the situation. The worst situations I’ve so far encountered are the two I’ve listed above: my aunt and Ana’s mom. In the case of Ana’s mom, my actions are not hypothetical: I HAVE contested her rhetoric about “good hair” as “racist crap” when she’s spouted it in front of Mayara. Both Ana and I have said to Mayara – in front of Grandma and behind her back – that grandma’s views on hair are improper, obsolete and racist and we’ve told grandma to quit loading the kid’s head with such crap. Most recently, I gave Mayara a gift certificate to dye a lock of her hair pink (which was something she’s wanted to do for awhile) and said “I think you should experiment all you want with your hair. There’re a lot of pretty hairstyles and I think that you’re right: a pink lock would look really neat”. We’ve also tried to interest her in natural styles. So we think we’re providing an adequate counterpoint for grandma which stops far short of “keep the old woman away from the kids”.
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Thad, you didn’t actually address my point, you threw up a strawman.
But my opinion is still:
When George’s wife says, “George, stand up for me,” the only manly (yeah, I’m going there) choice for George at that moment is to stand his sorry ass up. His ass is sorry because she shouldn’t have had to say it.
Now, when they get back home, George can tell her she’s being too defensive and too sensitive. But at the moment that his wife feels under attack and calls for him to defend her, George had better stand his sorry ass up.
A man needs to remember who he’s sleeping with. Maybe all women need to learn how to cook grits.
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Thad,
You seem so terribly angry about people disagreeing with you about some of these issues. Perhaps you forgot how you opened this particular can of worms.
Thad said: “But what if she HAD said something else? What should I have done? Slapped a ninety year old lady in the “face? Got up and stormed away angrily from the family?”
You asked a question and invited others to respond. So, many did, letting you know how they and their significant others handle such situations. Then, you became angry and argumentative because their actions were different than your own. YOU opened up this issue and brought your family into the discussion and made many statements about how you and your wife address such situations.
Most of the other posts have followed from that, and with each one you become more angry, more defensive, more insulting of anyone who takes a different position from your own.
The so-called “presumptions” you are railing so hysterically about are simply people commenting on YOUR OWN STATEMENTS!
One of the things that stands out to me as I read your posts on the matter of how YOU handle such situations, is your repeated statements about how you let your wife “take the lead” on those things. Not once have you given an example of a time or situation in which YOU took the initiative to deal with such racism from relatives or others with EITHER of your black wives. Instead, it is always expecting others to take action. (While I was writing this message, you posted your comment about how you stood up for your niece. That’s great! Why didn’t you just say this sooner?)
With regards to your “black grandma” scenario…
Thad said: “I CERTAINLY wouldn’t keep her from seeing her grandmother. I would encourage her to challenge her grandmother’s views and both her parents would classify said views as unacceptable in front of her and tell grandma to knock it off. But we WOULDN’T keep her away from grandma.”
I can’t help but notice that AGAIN you expect another person to initially deal with the situation. You want your CHILD to challenge the situation? How about YOU challenging it? Yes, you later do finally go on and say that you would tell Grandma to “knock it off.” But your FIRST response is to expect a CHILD to do her father’s job for him.
And what about if Grandma DIDN’T “knock it off?” What would you do then? Would you still allow your child around Grandma?
I can’t speak of other cultures with the same dismissive, superior air that you do, but I can speak of my own. It is considered disrespectful for children to challenge their elders. I teach my son (who is white) to let ME, his MOTHER, deal with wrong views and attitudes from his older relatives. That’s my place as his mother. I can’t imagine sitting there letting my child fight battles that are rightfully mine. When he is an adult, that will be a different matter.
Thad said:
The problem with your American-style black-or-white, coke-or-pepsi, chevvy-or-ford dichotic way of looking at the world is that it misses these subtleties and ambiguities. things are either this or that for you folks: never some of this, some of that and a whole bunch of the other. But when I look around me, I rarely see things in such strict, dichotic terms and it’s a wonder to me that any rational, intelligent person can view the world that way.
That’s why I think these “rules” people are trying to establish here are so much hot air, blowing in the wind. Life is a hell of a lot more complicated than the simplistic terms you seem to think in, Blackgenius.”
With regards to the above statement, I find it repugnant when people cloak their inaction and “passing the buck” cop-out in moral relativism.
Thad said: “but obviously you have different moral values.”
Yeah, dude, I do. I think it is wrong to sit by silently when people (especially family) insult loved ones. That’s why I responded to your insults of my friend. Yeah, I know you think that she was being a “jerk” for disagreeing with you (despite her being civil the entire time), and I know you think I am a “thug” for speaking up on her behalf.
But despite what you or anyone else thinks, I WILL SPEAK UP when I see wrong being done to loved ones. You may see the world in totally morally ambiguous ways…..but some us believe that there actually is a Right and a Wrong. That can be one of the problems with moral relativism….it leads to moral wishy-washy-ness. I’ve also noticed that moral relativism makes a ready defense in the hands of people who lack the courage to take a stand.
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RDKirk, is anyone here seriously arguing against your proposition?
No, right?
So what’s the point?
Like I said, you might as well be railing against pedophilia or kitten torturing.
The only SLIGHT modification I’d bring to your point is that it’s applicable independent of gender. I don’t find it to be a “manly” point at all, but an overall human point: you dance with who brung ya.
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Disclaimer: I will respond to other people, just not Thaddeus.
RDKirk said:
“Thad, you didn’t actually address my point, you threw up a strawman.
But my opinion is still:
When George’s wife says, “George, stand up for me,” the only manly (yeah, I’m going there) choice for George at that moment is to stand his sorry ass up. His ass is sorry because she shouldn’t have had to say it.
Now, when they get back home, George can tell her she’s being too defensive and too sensitive. But at the moment that his wife feels under attack and calls for him to defend her, George had better stand his sorry ass up.
A man needs to remember who he’s sleeping with. Maybe all women need to learn how to cook grits.”
Blakgenius cosigns this!!
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RDKirk,
Thank you! Thank you! It is good to know that are still some REAL MEN out there!
Though I am more than capable of standing up for myself (I think you’ve noticed), I have absolutely NO RESPECT for men who lack the honor, character, self-respect, courage, spinal column, and cojones to stand up for their loved ones, whether the person is their wife or child.
So, your post is greatly appreciated. Kudos. Do you have anymore? 🙂
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I take it, RDkirk, that you feel a person shouldn’t have to ask their spouse to defend them when their being attacked. SWW and I are both well schooled in the cooking of grits being from Arkansas!
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RDKirk,
I knew how to cook grits at 7. 🙂
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You seem so terribly angry about people disagreeing with you about some of these issues. Perhaps you forgot how you opened this particular can of worms.
Who’s disagreeing? For the vast majority of the discussion above, there was no disagreement at all: only BG PRESUMING that I was suporting points she disagrees with.
Even now, about the only “disagreement” I see between us is the fact that I’m not an absolutist when it comes to family relationships and she apparently is. She’d isolate her children from a grandmother like the one I described: I wouldn’t.
BG’s “disagreement” with me seems to be that she feels my position on this one point is tantamount to passively accepting racist abuse when it’s in a family context. I’ve made the point time and again that this is not what I’m saying.
So again, what “disagreement” is this, precisely? I think BG would be extreme and absolutist to deny her children a grandmother because of grandma’s unfortunate belief in “bad hair”, but I hardly am angry about her stance. And if you look carefully above, that is the ONLY thing we disagree about.
You asked a question and invited others to respond. So, many did, letting you know how they and their significant others handle such situations. Then, you became angry and argumentative because their actions were different than your own. YOU opened up this issue and brought your family into the discussion and made many statements about how you and your wife address such situations.
Correct me if I’m wrong here, SW, but BG didn’t say a damned thing about that point. She said she was “sorry” but that she didn’t think racist abuse was OK when it comes from the family, clearly implying that I did.
My question PRESUMES that this is a problem and asked for ways for dealing with it. BG seems to think that the only way to deal with it is to never allow one SO to meet such people. And that point was only expressed gradually and in the context of children, which was soemthing I never asked about in the first place.
One of the things that stands out to me as I read your posts on the matter of how YOU handle such situations, is your repeated statements about how you let your wife “take the lead” on those things. Not once have you given an example of a time or situation in which YOU took the initiative to deal with such racism from relatives or others with EITHER of your black wives.
Right. You know why? Because unlike you, I don’t consider women to be the moral equivalent of children, needing my strong guiding and protecting hand. In all the situations I’ve seen so far, both of my wives would have been tremedously pissed-off if I had taken the lead away from them. Maybe you like the men in your life to make your decisions for you – I hear that’s a southern tradition, too, after all. The women I have married are damned touchy when it comes to men stepping in front of them.
Nevertheless, I have described a situation where I took initiative, to whit, dealing with my aunt. I let Ana know what was up and told her I’d back her up whatever she wanted to do. SHE decided that she’d rather deal with the situation the way she dealt with it. You, apparently, think it would have been good relationship politics for me to have made that decision for her.
Again, you seem to think women and children are pretty much the same thing, SW.
Why?
While I was writing this message, you posted your comment about how you stood up for your niece. That’s great! Why didn’t you just say this sooner?
Perhaps because you’re acting like a jerk and presuming that I’m doing crap that I do not do and are not honestly asking my opinion or even honestly listening to what the hell I’m saying.
I can’t help but notice that AGAIN you expect another person to initially deal with the situation. You want your CHILD to challenge the situation?
How the hell do you get that rather outré interpretation out of what I said? Who’s “dealing with the situation first”, if not me, one of her parents? Or are you complaining that I’m not elbowing my wife out of the way and allowing her a say in how the situation should be dealt with?
Southernwoman, are you one of those looney born-agains from the American south who believe that women’s place is in the kitchen and that men should make all the substantive decisions in their lives? Because it sure looks that way, the longer you argue about how men should apparently make all decisions in a family’s life.
And what about if Grandma DIDN’T “knock it off?” What would you do then? Would you still allow your child around Grandma?
In this case? Sure. Like I said, I think the good the child will get from the relationship would far outwiegh the harm, especially with every other adult in the child’s life explaining that grandma’s hair fixation is silly and wrong.
With regards to the above statement, I find it repugnant when people cloak their inaction and “passing the buck” cop-out in moral relativism.
Hon, I don’t think you even know what “moral relativism” is, given your use of it in the above sentence. “Moral relativism” would be me saying “Aw, hell, it’s not wrong. After all, there are plenty of people who consider it to be right.” Instead, I’m saying it’s wrong, but that the situation is not so irredemable that I’d keep my kid from seeing her grandma based on this point alone. I’d look for another way to deal with the situation.
That’s neither “moral relativism”, “passing the buck”, nor “inaction”, SW. You’re a thug who’s simply looking for a fight and can’t bear to look at what people are actually saying.
I think it is wrong to sit by silently when people (especially family) insult loved ones.
Then you DON’T have different morals from me on this point, because I, too, think its wrong.
So what’s the problem here, SW? Me and my “aggression”? Hell, I’ve been making the same damned point over and over and you and your “pal” just can’t get away from making the strawmen, can you?
I have a different way from BG of doing something in the situation regarding grandma. You can’t seem to handle this and classify it as “doing nothing”, even when I’ve outlined, repeatedly what I’d concretely do – hardly nothing.
So what’s the problem here, SW? Again, are you being stupid or cynical? It can only be one, given your repeated insistence in claiming that I’m saying things I manifestly am not saying.
And s***… “moral relativism”? Look the concept up before you start complaining about it. The fact that you have strongly held moral beliefs doesn’t mean that said beliefs are correct and to say this is hardly “moral relativism”.
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Thad,
Thad said to SWW:
“My earlier comment had to do with remarks directed towards ANA, not children. You are stretching them to presume that somehow they apply to kids as well. So no if I say “Yes, I’d call her”, I’ll look like a poltroon for not defending my kids. If I say “No, I wouldn’t call her,” I look as if I were contradicting my earlier statement.”
With your moral relativism, I suppose that you WOULD see my question to be “stretching them to presume.”
Your response seems to imply that you only see TWO possible scenarios for handling this situation: calling Ana or not calling Ana. Is that it? Can’t you handle it yourself without calling for backup? For someone who insists that we heathen, ignorant Americans are so “either-or” and “dualistic” can’t you think of some OTHER possiblity? I simply threw the “calling Ana” remark in as a bit of tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, but you seem to see it as perhaps the only way to respond.
Thad said to SWW: “In the case of children, the situation is obviously different because children and full-grown women are not one and the same thing. (Your question seems to presume that they are, South, and you should really think about that presumption some more). Children need an adult to step between them and the nastier aspects of the world and I would certainly do that.”
It may be “obviously different” to someone with your particular set of moral values regarding the appropriateness of defending one’s spouse, but it is not so obvious to those of us who believe in defending love ones and who expect our spouses to take a stand on our behalf. You seem to be implying (among other things) that I am implying with my question that women and children are one and the same. Nice trick, Thaddy. Now you are using the rhetorical device which you accuse me of using.
I am not saying they are the same thing, but basically, I haven’t seen a man yet who refused to stand up for his wife who then would actually stand up for his child.
As a grown woman, I am fully capable of standing up for myself. There is nothing “childlike” about me. Nor am I a wilting violet white woman you have implied I am in an earlier post. However, despite my more than enough abilities to stand up for myself, I STILL expect my spouse or significant other to join in and stand by me, just as I would stand by him (despite his prodiguous abilities in this area).
The way I see it, in a marriage the two spouses are a team, a united front. You have each others’ backs. You stand by each other. And in an interracial relationship this is even more important. since if the couple don’t stand up for each other in this nasty, ugly, dangerous world, then the world will literally rip them apart……..along with their children.
Look at it like this, Thaddy, you can practice your “standing up” skills defending your wife, so that by the time children come along, you will have mastered it and won’t HAVE to call Ana when some crap busts loose.
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Jasmin,
I think all we gals need to get together and cook up some grits for RDKirk!
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It has been erroneously suggested that BlakGenius and I are “sock puppets.”
Anyone who is truly skilled in both rhetoric and writing can easily discern distinct differences in our writing styles, “voice,” and diction.
Any similarities that you may see are due to shared culture and region, along with the fact that we have been talking to each other several hours every week for the last nine years. As a result, we tend to know what the other one is thinking. Though when we speak we sound a lot alike, but with the written word….there are obvious differences.
We tag-team each other on this blog because there are comments that sound better coming from one of us than the other. I can be more “aggressive” since I am the white woman, because Blakgenius gets accused of “attacking” someone when she civilly disagrees with them…..(you know, part of that whole “angry black woman stereotype”), then I can step in and say some things that are quite simply easier for me to “get away with” when it comes to talking to another white person.
Then, she can comment on other issues, as a black woman, that as a white woman I do not think would sound appropriate coming from me. But on racial issues, she and I literally see eye to eye.
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Southern White Woman is right. On racial issues, we do see eye-to-eye. She is my white sistah and part of my chosen family.
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A man needs to remember who he’s sleeping with. Maybe all women need to learn how to cook grits.”
Blakgenius cosigns this!!
‘Nuff said.
Guess we know who does the cooking in that family.
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@SWW
Your response seems to imply that you only see TWO possible scenarios for handling this situation: calling Ana or not calling Ana.
This is implied by your original question. Lookee here:
“I wonder how you would handle such a situation with your child and a racist relative when your Anna wasn’t there to “take the lead” in such matters? Whip out your cell and ask her what to do?”
With regards to moral relativism, I seriously don’t think you have the slightest idea of what you’re talking about, but I’ve already responded to that in a post that’s awaiting release from moderation.
Now, is there anything of substance in your comments other than strawmen, ad hominems and general ignorance? Lessee…
It may be “obviously different” to someone with your particular set of moral values regarding the appropriateness of defending one’s spouse, but it is not so obvious to those of us who believe in defending love ones and who expect our spouses to take a stand on our behalf.
So let me get this straight: you believe women shouldn’t have the same consideration as autonomous adults that I’d give to men, then? Is that your point?
I am not saying they are the same thing, but basically, I haven’t seen a man yet who refused to stand up for his wife who then would actually stand up for his child.
Interesting how you seem to think respecting your wife’s autonomy and ability to choose how to deal with a situation has become, to you “refusing to stand up for your wife”. “Following someone’s lead” does not mean “do nothing”, Southernwoman.
I would hazard a guess that our issue here is indeed moral. I think it has to do with the fact that you seem to believe that women are supposed to be passive and men active, that a man following a woman’s lead is somehow “unmanly” and the same thing as “doing nothing”.
As a grown woman, I am fully capable of standing up for myself. There is nothing “childlike” about me.
Except for your belief that your views on what is right and wrong authorize you to attackm other people, apparently. Oh, and your idea that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will see it for the truth. And let’s not forget your belief that moral positions should follow the view of “my pals, right or wrong”. All of which are very childlike characteristics…
However, despite my more than enough abilities to stand up for myself, I STILL expect my spouse or significant other to join in and stand by me, just as I would stand by him (despite his prodiguous abilities in this area).
And here’s the strawman again. If your spouse is going to “join in”, then he’s following your lead, EXACTLY as I psotulated. In my case, however, this attitude is is reprehensible.
Sorry, SWW, but you are simply full of s*** and that’s all there is to it.
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blakgenius,
Well girl, it was fun today, wasn’t it? Almost like being in Dr. H’s writing class and Dr. E’s philosophy class wasn’t it (of course, our classmates debated and argued with more class and civility than some of what we’ve seen today).
I gotta hit the gym and then go to church, so I will sign off now and join you next week for our “Abagond Hour.” Have a great week.
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Let me be very clear for the folks who find this all TL;DR.
In spite of SWW/BG’s intentional distortions of my position, I am not advocating passivity when I say “follow your spouse’s lead”.
And, I’m sorry, but I disagree that SWW/BG should beat her children.
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Regarding cooking grits: Google for “Al Green” and “hot grits.”
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Just a question: do you women actually work for a living or are you supported by your husbands?
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Oh, and by the way: very nice use of proxies. I’m impressed.
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You too, girl. Tune in next week for the abagond hour, same time, same channel.:-)
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http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/Sock_puppets
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Southern White Woman and Black Genius are hardly sock puppets. Looking at their IP addresses I can confirm that they are where they say they are – Arkansas and Norway.
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Nothing a decent fixed proxy couldn’t imitate, Abagond.
All you can tell for sure from an IP is if two posters use the same IP and are thuis probably the same person IRL. All BG needs is a proxy with an Arkansas IP and she’s good to go. This is not at all hard to do.
Of course, all this is speculation on my part, but I find it unusual that the one only shows up when the other’s on-line and that they leave at the same time, too. And the fact that they have the same written voice, use the same rhetorical tricks and complement one another’s position like Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum…
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Thaddeus said to SWW:
Oh, and your idea that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will see it for the truth. And let’s not forget your belief that moral positions should follow the view of “my pals, right or wrong”. All of which are very childlike characteristics…
Menelik says:
and when their jobs is done i.e. when they perceive their opponent as mortally wounded, they act as though you no longer exist and continue a rather meaningless exchange between themselves – as can be seen in their most recent posts above.
Yeah, men and women argue, alright, but as you can now see (and probably won’t publically acknowledge) ‘the female of the species is more deadlier than the male’. Why so? Because when you attach lies, half-truths, and straw men arguments, to rampant female emotion, the lone, rational, male stands not a chance unless he exits the arena of battle on HIS terms!
Thaddeus, my man, in future, you should choose you allies (particularly if they are female) more carefully than your opponents because when the male has a ‘love in’ with a praying mantis (a female supremacist par excellence), you know what the final outcome is!
Just saying!
Menelik Charles
London England
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I don’t know if they are sock puppets, but Thad is correct: IP isn’t everything. On the other hand, I believe it’s possible to tell if someone’s using a proxy when commenting.
Also, a lot of comments made via proxies end up in spam folder (at least that’s what happens on my website) so I have to manually approve them after people complain their comment is not showing up.
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because when the male has a ‘love in’ with a praying mantis (a female supremacist par excellence), you know what the final outcome is!
You know it’s (most probably) just a myth, right?
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@ Mira,
not in about 30% of cases it’s not. See here:
http://insects.about.com/od/matingreproduction/f/praying-mantis-cannibalism.htm
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True, it’s good to know. Poor males! 😉
But cannibalism is not a rare thing with animals. So while I do find your analogy entertaining, I don’t think it’s adequate. Animals behave on instincts, humans can be truly mean and evil. I’m not saying I agree with your comment about women, but I don’t think using such an analogy helps.
Also, some of your attitudes about women are really, really weird.
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Mira said:
some of your attitudes about women are really, really weird.
Menelik asks:
such as? Please feel free to quote me.
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Just recent example: “‘the female of the species is more deadlier than the male’. Why so? Because when you attach lies, half-truths, and straw men arguments, to rampant female emotion, the lone, rational, male stands not a chance unless he exits the arena of battle on HIS terms!”
Granted, my English isn’t perfect, but are you saying women are not rational while men are?
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That’s ONE of my views. Anymore? You did say “Some” of my views, Mira.
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I already pointed out about the praying mantis part. But if you count that as one comment, I apologize and say that “that one comment of yours about women was really weird” (disrespectful? delusional?)
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fair enough.
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@Everyone except Thad and MC (because I don’t especially care what they think),
Scoll up to the following two posts by myself and SWW and check time they were both posted. Y’all will find that they are posted EXACTLY 1 second apart. Even sockpuppets couldn’t manage that.
Southern White Woman said:
It has been erroneously suggested that BlakGenius and I are “sock puppets.”
Anyone who is truly skilled in both rhetoric and writing can easily discern distinct differences in our writing styles, “voice,” and diction.
Any similarities that you may see are due to shared culture and region, along with the fact that we have been talking to each other several hours every week for the last nine years. As a result, we tend to know what the other one is thinking. Though when we speak we sound a lot alike, but with the written word….there are obvious differences.
We tag-team each other on this blog because there are comments that sound better coming from one of us than the other. I can be more “aggressive” since I am the white woman, because Blakgenius gets accused of “attacking” someone when she civilly disagrees with them…..(you know, part of that whole “angry black woman stereotype”), then I can step in and say some things that are quite simply easier for me to “get away with” when it comes to talking to another white person.
Then, she can comment on other issues, as a black woman, that as a white woman I do not think would sound appropriate coming from me. But on racial issues, she and I literally see eye to eye.
Blakgenius said:
Southern White Woman is right. On racial issues, we do see eye-to-eye. She is my white sistah and part of my chosen family.
Thad is attempting to derail discussion because he has failed in his attempt us use his great white maleness and high educational level to intimidate us into agreeing with him.
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@ Witchsistah
You’re HORDE???? EWWWWW!
Alliance ALWAYS! RAHHHHHHH!
But a Tauren IS the best thing about the Horde though…
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@MC
Thaddeus, my man, in future, you should choose you allies (particularly if they are female) more carefully than your opponents because when the male has a ‘love in’ with a praying mantis (a female supremacist par excellence), you know what the final outcome is!
I argue based on what I think is right and wrong, not based on politics. If BG/SWW wants to play junior high school social games, that’s her look out.
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On the use of proxies…
Y’all will find that they are posted EXACTLY 1 second apart. Even sockpuppets couldn’t manage that.
O rly? I can think of several ways you could do precisely that and very easily, too. Most people here don’t use sock puppets and so probably don’t realize this, but you can run as many proxies as you like on one computer: it’s just a question of softwear.
So you write both messages: the sockpuppet posts, then you post. No difficulty at all. Plus, you can use the event as “proof” that you’re not sock-puppeting to people who aren’t proxie savvy.
And, who, by the way, are some of the most proxie-savvy people on the internet? Serious on-line gamers, who need to run two or more characters at the same time.
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@BlakGamer
Thad is attempting to derail discussion because he has failed in his attempt us use his great white maleness and high educational level to intimidate us into agreeing with him.
Thad could care sweet f***-all if anyone agrees with him.
Thad’s entire problem with BG/SWW is that she builds strawmen in his name and then attacks them.
But Thad is beginning to see that this is most probably due to the fact that World of Warcraft just doesn’t provide enough kicks to bored Norwegian housewives, who decide to do a little RL trolling on the side, just for s**** and giggles.
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Thad,
I’m confused. Why would you bother having such a long exchange if you thought Blakgenius and Southern White Woman were sock puppets the whole time? It seems like that would come up first, just like with that ABM guy. (Well, that’s a troll, but same difference.)
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I came around to this position towards the end of the debate, when I realized that no matter what I said, BG/SWW would simply attribute a completely different position to me and then attack said position.
I’m slow on the uptake: I generally believe that people are arguing in good faith, perhaps because I’m an educator. so when people aren’t arguing in good faith, it takes awhile for that particular coin to drop for me.
Plus, I’m in the middle of 40 pages of translation work and writing a speech. Yesterday, I was desperately looking for anything which would give me a break between solid blocks of translation. 😀
ABM is a very obvious troll. BG/SWW is much more subtle. She’s trolling the way many people over at /b/ troll: as if the internet itself were a game.
ABM just wants to make black people look stupid, so he goes at it with hammer and tongs and is quite easy to perceive.
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I knew it was going to have something to do with being a professor. 🙂
(I’m a future professor, btw.)
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Get out now while you have a chance! 😀
No, seriously, it does lower your BS detector a bit. you get paid, essentially, for treating every discussion, argument, or question as if it’s serious.
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He can’t to be disagreed with, Jasmin, that’s all there is to it.
Abagond, can you test Thad’s theory and see if it’s possible to do it? Can you set up a proxy accout (if you don’t already have one), and see if someone can post two posts, one from their real email and one from a proxy account at the same time and have them post 1 second apart. I don’t know if this is possible, but let’s test it and see. Doesn’t prove that SWW and I are sock puppets, but I’d still be interested to know if it’s even possible.
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How would you know, Gamemeister?
You’ve not fundamentally disagreed with me on one single point above, aside from the fact that you’d keep your kids away from an old black grandma who had a “thing” about hair and I wouldn’t.
Other than that, you haven’t articulated one single position that’s in opposition with anything I’ve said.
Now back to Warcraft, Segagirl.
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LMAO!
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Black Genius said:
“Abagond, can you test Thad’s theory and see if it’s possible to do it? Can you set up a proxy accout (if you don’t already have one), and see if someone can post two posts, one from their real email and one from a proxy account at the same time and have them post 1 second apart. I don’t know if this is possible, but let’s test it and see. Doesn’t prove that SWW and I are sock puppets, but I’d still be interested to know if it’s even possible.”
I have no doubt it is possible but I cannot see anyone going to that much trouble to sock puppet anyone on this blog. In my experience it is only spammers who use proxies.
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[Shrugs]
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Thad,
We get it. You think they are sock puppets. Why don’t you let Abagond deal with the problem (if there is one) from here?
Could you, for once, just let it go?
(And I mean this as a honest and friendly advice)
You start to remind me of dr House, lol.
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All I did was shrug, Mira.
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Menelik said:
Thaddeus, my man, in future, you should choose you allies (particularly if they are female) more carefully than your opponents because when the male has a ‘love in’ with a praying mantis (a female supremacist par excellence), you know what the final outcome is!
Thaddeus replied:
I argue based on what I think is right and wrong, not based on politics. If BG/SWW wants to play junior high school social games, that’s her look out.
Menelik replies:
your argument had a rational basis. To properly disagree or agree, one would have to put forth an opposing rational argument. What you got instead was a giant straw man (like in the film the Wicker Man, right?) and all manner of false accusations into the bargain.
As unpopular as it is to say, Thad, but that wasn’t “politics”; it was nothing less than an expression off the essential differences between the sexes: reason versus emotion. They treated you like the unpopular girl at school: you could do nothing right. You were/are being bullied, my man.
Bail out!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Thad,
All I did was shrug, Mira.
It wasn’t just the shrug, but the WAY you did it. 😉
Menelik,
essential differences between the sexes: reason versus emotion.
Please, tell me you’re saying that for the lulz.
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It wasn’t just the shrug, but the WAY you did it.
In brackets?
And if you’re up to being a white knight today, why don’t you take BG/SWW to task for their assinine comments regarding my beliefs.
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Sorry, MC, but I’ve seen plenty of men do exactly the seem thing. Being a jerk is not gender specific.
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Thaddeus said:
Sorry, MC, but I’ve seen plenty of men do exactly the seem thing. Being a jerk is not gender specific.
Menelik replies:
true. But this hardly subtracts from my essential point.
Thaddeus said:
And if you, Mira, are up to being a white knight today, why don’t you take BG/SWW to task for their assinine comments regarding my beliefs.
Menelik says:
it won’t happen, Thad. Mira has identified your unpopularity with the ladies here (just as she noted my unpopularity) so she aint gonna stand up to those bullying you. You do no right…even if you are right!
Bail out. Forget reason: consider your dignity instead!
Menelik Charles
London England
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OK, let me put it this way: women are hardly less rational than men. Believe me. As a matter of fact, I would say that it’s a hell of a lot easier to get a guy to believe i credulous BS than a woman.
Dignity? Honor? A Jedi cares not for these things. 😀
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Thad,
And if you’re up to being a white knight today, why don’t you take BG/SWW to task for their assinine comments regarding my beliefs.
Hey, Thad, it’s not like I never defended your honour here! So please cut me some slack.
All I’m saying is, I think the sock puppet conversation is getting old. I don’t know whether these people are the same person or not (I tend to believe what people say so I assume they are not). And to be completely honest, some of your comments (yours and theirs) were TL;DR (which usually doesn’t happen with me, but hey, I was busy).
But if it means so much to you, I’ll read the whole conversation and post my thoughts; however, let’s forget about the whole sock puppet thing. Abagond can handle the problem IF there is a problem.
Menelik,
it won’t happen, Thad. Mira has identified your unpopularity with the ladies here (just as she noted my unpopularity) so she aint gonna stand up to those bullying you. You do no right…even if you are right!
I was unaware of the fact Thad was unpopular with the ladies here… I mean, I though he was generally unpopular, not just with the female commenters.
And I am more than ready to defend those who are being bullied, male or female. I guess I was unaware of the “horrible treatment” Thad was getting here.
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All I’m saying is, I think the sock puppet conversation is getting old.
I mentioned it about three times, man. Whatever. And Abagond can certainly do with his blog whatever he wants.
I’m just sayin’.
Nor would I qualify the treatment I got as “horrible”. It’s just annoying to have people repeatedly put s*** into your mouth and then castigate you for supposedly holding the views they put there. It’s doubly aggravating when a so-called “friend” shows up and then whines that you should stop attacking their pal.
I will note, however, that “Blakgenius” and “Witchsistah” are apparently the same poster – a fact which I’m just realizing now.
Am I right on this point, Abagond?
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Southern White Woman and Witchsistah live in different states.
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Is “Witchsistah” the same poster as “Blakgenius”, though?
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[…] mention the word “nigger,” for the same reason. For example, according to black blogger abagond (the same blogger who obliviously kicked off an attempt to discredit race realist science by […]
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Recently, I got into a bit of a heated discussion with two posters on another site regarding Rihanna slamming a Dutch fashion magazine for referring her as the “ultimate n-word bitch”. You see, I was backing up a female black commenter saying that no one should be calling Rihanna or any other black people by the n-word due to it being a racial slur. And wouldn’t you know it, people (mostly whites and a few POC) were saying, “Well, if blacks can do it, then we should be able to do the same thing. Blacks call each other the n-word all the time. It’s unfair they can say the n-word.” The more I posted my comments about why the use of the n-word was very wrong, the more negative comments I received. I was told, “Why are you defending blacks? You’re not black.” One poster even said that black people cannot claim the n-word because originally, they didn’t use it. It was other people who started calling them that. It really boggles my mind the idiocy of people.
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Oh, I forgot to mention some posters were saying the n-word was just a word. And it was only offensive if you let it be offensive. Huh? How ridiculous is that?
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I had no idea she was racist… I bought one of her books a couple of years ago. Thank God I lost that book.
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Madonna used the n-word as a hashtag on a picture of her son she posted on Instagram earlier in the year.
She gets called out by many of her followers then she deletes her caption and unapologetically says:
What a bloody *sshole. And the fact she adopted two beautiful black children says a lot about her.
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I don’t understand why she still has a program on SiriusXM. Look at what happened to Paula Deen just for admitting that she used it. And Dr. Laura it’s documented very well but she still on the radio being the bitch to her callers that she always has been.
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She’s truly ignorant and the people who follow her alike for following her. Don’t trip Rihanna.
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