I write about racism in America because it affects my life and the lives of those I care about. Because it has shaped how I experience and see the world and myself, so by understanding racism I understand myself and the world better. It has little to do with trying to make whites look bad or making some kind of appeal to them.
My mother brought me up to be colour-blind. She meant well but she was a kumbayah anti-racist. That sent me into a strange land without a map. And so I have had to learn the hard way what was on that map, piece by piece.
Some say, “You see racism in everything. You see what you expect.” Wrong: I was so unprepared I have been surprised over and over again at how deeply white racism ran.
At first I was surprised when they called me names. Then I was surprised at how different the black and white parts of New York were. Then I was surprised at the police, who were not merely bad but evil to the bone. Then I went across the country and was surprised at how the Sioux Indians were even worse off, at how they had many of the very same issues as blacks – even though they lived hundreds of miles away and came from a completely different history.
And on and on.
Then I started this blog and I was surprised yet again. Not that whites are racist – I already knew that – but how deep and twisted their racism ran. It was not merely a matter of them not knowing any better, of living in nice, lily-white suburbs and believing everything they saw on television. No, it was way worse than that – even among Otherwise Intelligent White People. And so I was surprised yet again.
Dr Beverly Tatum says there is a five-stage cycle to growing up black in America:
- pre-encounter – you know you are black (by age five) but it is no big deal.
- encounter – you experience racism in an unmistakable way, repeatedly.
- immersion/emersion – you learn everything you can about being black because it helps you to understand your experience.
- internalization – what you learned becomes part of your identity, who you are, which helps to undo the internalized racism you have unknowingly learned. You become less angry, more hopeful.
- internalization-commitment – now you can move beyond race.
Most blacks reach the last stage at about age 25 to 30 and then go back to the first stage to go round again at a higher level of understanding.
So for me New York provided the first encounter stage, this blog (and some other events in my life) the second. In the earlier posts on this blog you can see me still in my second pre-encounter stage, in utter innocence of what was about to hit.
So now I am in the immersion stage for the second time in my life and consumed once again with the subject.
See also:
I’m very sure that I’m at immersion for my stage.
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Growing up, my parents instilled a lot of pride in my heritage(my father is Yoruba — from Nigeria, and my mother is from Tennessee) and respect and interest for other people of other heritages, but I would say that I was stuck at levels three and four for so long, until I visited this blog and others around the anti-racist realm. It was here mainly that I’ve learned more about the intricate details & aspects of racism, which has armed me with knowledge in regards to the numerous ways in which racism and whiteness manifest themselves, and the numerous topics on blacks as well has provided me the chance to reflect from within and has also given me even more pride to hold my head high.
I’d like to say that I’ve reached stage 5 — well, at least for certain aspects of things, it will be a work in progress for a long time. Not because I’m racist, I don’t see myself as such, but race is everything, especially in America. Also, I’m not so sure about that last sentence in stage 4. I’m still somewhat angry, and with all that’s going on in America, I’m not hopeful in regards to race for the future.
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I hear ya. I grew up in a predominantly white area with few POC. When I attended school, I thought I was no different from everyone else. I was sadly mistaken. Kids and teenagers made sure you knew how you were unlike the rest. (Yes, please pull your eyes into a slant, utter mock Asian words then laugh about it, and make fun of my skin colour. While you’re at it, throw stones for good measure.) I may be older, but a new generation still finds ways to act the way they do.
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Nice one Abagond.
It must be your computer background that helps you to see things ‘linear’.
I guess there must be a number of ‘differing’ experiences for differing people.
I think one of the worst is if you ‘experience’ something major, for instance a family member’s death at the hands of racism, and watching how things unfold via the police, courts etc.
Closely linked to this is if an individual at whatever stage becomes an ‘agitator’, and comes face to face with societal structures like the ‘law’ etc.
With these type of experience -unless you give up, and think racism cannot be ‘defeated’, which is very understandable – Then you can never move beyond race.
However, the whole process is a journey just like life, with its various ‘twists and turns’.
‘Twists and turns’ is my way of conceptualising it.
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It depends upon when you grew up Black. The first few years I didn’t know I was Colored. I just had family there were other people, but they had no impact on me.
My first encounter at four, that I didn’t understand at the time was when I was told I couldn’t have a soda in a dime store. I remember going into tantrum mode.
As I got older I became aware of restrictions and quite conscious that I was colored. Moving out side of my world, seeing white and colored signs, having only one public swimming pool, going to the state fair only on one day, having a separate state park and movie theater constantly reminded you of your place. I had few encounters with white folk as a child.
Racism was the way it was, very insidious, no revelations. When Emmett Till was murdered, it brought home the virulent nature of racism, which didn’t diminish with more push for civil rights.
I didn’t have the luxury of going through any of those stages. This might sound peculiar, but by time I was 20 I was radicalized, although I didn’t have the emotion of hating white people.
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Now that I think about:
““I think one of the worst is if you ‘experience’ something major, for instance a family meember DEATH at the hands of racism, and watching how things unfold via the police, courts etc.”
Some of us are so ‘brainwashed’ that even if a cataclysmic event should occur, some people still will not be moved by the sense of ‘injustice’ but become more ‘entrenched’ in their view
As I burst into a song, to describe their thinking:
‘hhmmm hhhmmm’ as I clear my throat
‘and I think to myself whaaaaaaaaat a wonderful wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooorllld’
Thank you!!
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I suppose I am lucky my parents told me right off the bat that I should expect to get treated differently because of my race, ethnicity hell even gender. Same with the rest of my siblings my brothers understood racism from a very young age.
My youngest brother who used to get bullied would retaliate by kicking some serious arse and he would get suspended and punished but the white boy that picked on him would be let off the hook.
He called the teachers racist and refused to attend class until the other boy was punished or untill they find a way to make it up to him. The boy wasn’t punished but my brother got to go to a theme park.
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This is an interesting post, Abagond. I had no idea this blog helped you learn some things about racism or the way people were. I guess I assumed you used this blog to express your views and that those views were the same right from the start. Then again, I didn’t read many of your earliest posts.
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Nice pic for the post, lol
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Excellent post, Abagond.
Like Aiyo, I was fortunate to have a parent drill race issues into me from a young age.
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I assure you Abagond, I have learnt more about racism and myself and how I respond and WHY I respond the way I do, on your blog than in all my years on earth. Being a Nigerian, who grew up in Naija, it never occurs to you that you’re black. And being Nigerian leaves you in an impervious state because we Nigerians are like cockroaches. We are EVERYWHERE! So it is easy to become a part of the Nigerian community anywhere which of course insulates you. Your reality, to a large extent, is confined to that community. I remember that it was in fact a fellow Nigerian living in the DMV area that introduced me to your blog. I doubt that she knows she did!
I will Confess that often, I have not liked my knee jerk reaction to what some have said on this blog. It’s like realising that you’re not infallible. One may laugh but the way I reacted when I felt I was warned against speaking against America as a whole shook me. Must be what Jekyll felt like when he discovered he had a Hyde. I really should thank you though. Really. And like my husband and I have always decided, our son will KNOW what it is to be black. And know that by being a black male in the western world, he is disabled and can take nothing for granted.
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To Abagond:
Then I was surprised at the police, who were not merely bad but evil to the bone.
Do you believe the police in places like Detroit and Washington D.C. (where the Police Chief and the majority of the Police force are Black..) are evil?
Then I started this blog and I was surprised yet again. Not that whites are racist – I already knew that – but how deep and twisted their racism ran.
Do you think perhaps the White people who post here are a skewed representation of the White populace?
As you have posted, you have a fair number of posters who came from websites like Stormfront. Clearly these people are not going to be tolerant or friendly towards Black people. (or for that matter non-racist Whites, Jews, etc..)
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To Mira:
This is an interesting post, Abagond. I had no idea this blog helped you learn some things about racism or the way people were.
Personally I don’t think NoSlappz or the banned Black female poster who can no longer be named represent either of their respective racial populations but they certainly made a stir. I can understand Abagond’s reaction to some of the more obnoxious White posters ( and I am guessing he has received some racist hate mail..) but from my experience their reactions
are a bit skewed, as it were for the White spectrum.
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Uncle Milton,
Since when is color a requisite for bad behavior of the people in Blue. In some places the police have become pathological, extending their animus to any one who looks cross eyed at them.
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Since when is color a requisite for bad behavior of the people in Blue.
It’s not….
In some places the police have become pathological, extending their animus to any one who looks cross eyed at them.
But if these are Black cops who are reacting that way.. it would imply that it’s not necessarily a “White thing” Hence one would have look at other issues besides racism.
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Uncle Milton,
The culture of Blue. However its basis is in racism, in the sense that Black cops give up their identity to belong. It is not a question of acquiescing to the system, but of survival of ones job and avoidance of harassment.
The drug war has also given more military like power to the police and makes it easier to abuse the power.
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Uncle Milton,
I was thinking of the incident and arrest of Henry Gates Jr. How was it that the black cop didn’t try to diffuse the situation? What gave the white cop the leadership role in this? Both cops knew who Gates was by the time of the arrest. Even it was not racially motivated, shouldn’t the Black cop know how Gates would feel and keep the encounter from escalating? No matter how Black cops may act on the job, when out of uniform they still get stopped for DWB and have been known to be shot because they were thought to b the perpetrator.
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Uncle Milton:
I wish it were as simple as just putting a black man in charge but it is not. Detroit, after all, was where Aiyana Jones was shot dead back in May:
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Uncle Milton:
“Do you think perhaps the White people who post here are a skewed representation of the White populace?
As you have posted, you have a fair number of posters who came from websites like Stormfront. Clearly these people are not going to be tolerant or friendly towards Black people. (or for that matter non-racist Whites, Jews, etc..)”
I know that. I do not mean them – I expect trolls and skinheads to be moronic jerks, so they do not surprise me. That is why in the post I said it was the “Otherwise Intelligent White People” who surprise me. And not by what they say but the reasons they give, which show that they know full well what is going on.
More on that point here:
Whites like to think racism is just a matter of a few bad apples. It is not. Not even close. If it were just a matter of some skinheads, then you would not see it on television or in schoolbooks, it would not appear in government numbers on things like life expectancy or, say, income and unemployment adjusted for education.
American history is a skinhead’s wet dream come true. All the racism which drove that and excused it did not just disappear one fine day in 1965. Something which I hope was made clear in my posts on “The Space Traders” and “Basically Good”:
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Mira said:
“This is an interesting post, Abagond. I had no idea this blog helped you learn some things about racism or the way people were. I guess I assumed you used this blog to express your views and that those views were the same right from the start. Then again, I didn’t read many of your earliest posts.”
White people say things on this blog they would never say in my hearing offline. So while I knew whites were racist I did not know much about the thinking that went behind it.
I wrote about the five walls of racism here:
In terms of that, I knew about the first wall (lies) and assumed much of the second wall (self-interest) before I started this blog but had little idea of the other three. I had heard of white guilt but did not think it was all that important. The wall of the white self took me completely by surprise.
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White guilt seem to be very important and prevalent. I don’t know much about it myself, but I am surprised you didn’t think it was that important. I mean, it’s everywhere (in the white American culture). Everywhere. In the films, TV shows, all over the media. I am surprised you didn’t see it as that important. On the other hand, I understand you focused more on negative stereotypes about blacks and white focus on black crime to notice the white guilt – influenced messages in media.
The wall of the white self took me completely by surprise.
What do you mean by “white self”? White pride? Superiority complex?
What I didn’t know or find obvious: colour blind racism and its mechanism, lack of friendships between blacks and whites, whites thinking they know better what racism is than black people know and the fact there are more black man/white woman couples than white man/black woman ones (for some reason I thought it was other way round).
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Whites also seem to have problems in seeing non whites as individuals but individuals who might have a different experience, or culture. So they either try to treat them as “normal and usual” people (read: white) and are surprised to hear this person has a different experience or is discriminated against, OR they try to respect a cultural difference but they fail miserably by seeing a non-white person as a different species.
In other words, whites who try to be ok and “not racist” see blacks either as whites with darker skin or as people from Mars.
And it’s all before some of those blacks want to date these white people’s children…
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“American history is a skinhead’s wet dream come true”…
(Abagong)
So true. American history is what made the films, ‘American History X’ and ‘Crash’, so disappointing and sad, as White Americans, always suggest these films as superior representations of media, that is appropriate for discussions on racial relations. NOT.
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In some places the police have become pathological, extending their animus to any one who looks cross eyed at them.
Like the cops in Appalachia. *shudder* They do not give a fuck.
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Thats sad on how you grew up. I grew up among all types of people not just whites, and I tend to fit in to other ethnicities. My daughter looks Phillipina and she has cousins who look white and black.and Phillipino. I think it depends on where you grew up. about cops, they aren’t just white. My mom used to talk white cops out of tickets most of the time. and she was black. She would smile and be sweet. “Hi officer, I didnt know i ran through the red light..oops”. White cops helped my sister when my ex bro in law threanted to beat her up many times. They even drove us to my mom and dads. I think they got in trouble for that one though…this was in the crazy sixties.
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Uncle Milton, your position on the police is interesting, I grew up in a place where fear of cops was instinctual, no matter what color you were, not coincidentally it was a predominantly black area. I have a deep mistrust of them because frankly i have watched the injustice, even been treated poorly myself, but i have to say that as an adult, living in much better area, and white, I am treated entirely differently by police, because now, i am looked at as being someone more closely related to them. Had i spent my life in a place like i live in now, maybe i could look at Black complaints about the police and automatically say, but there are black policemen so the problems is not race. Maybe i could see the police as what they probably intended to be when they went to the police academies… as good people who want to help make the world safer, but i think the reality is, for the most part, thier task is mainly to keep the crime that naturally incurs from an unequal society from spilling into ‘nice’ areas. This way the white men from good areas, can cruise in to pick up thier hookers or drugs but go home to an area where thier children wont have to find condoms or drug crime on the street, This is where my beef with your comments comes from, because when I was in those areas, i was treated like scum, but now that i left, there is no lasting mark that says, this woman does not belong here, she did not grow up here… but for a black person the color of thier skin is that mark, so thier treatment continues even outside the confines of the poor people holding facilities. Even if they grew up in privilege, they look to the policeman, like exactly what he is tasked to stop…that outsider cruising through the neighborhood, he must be casing the joint.
To be fair, maybe it is not 100% race (I would say 95%, even for black cops) And to be very honest, I would guess that NO policemen become police with the intent of harrassing or brutalizing POC. but the thing is, when i encounter police as an adult, away from the neighborhood where my fear and distrust of them formed, i am continually surprised at how respectfully i am treated. It makes me angry to think that some americans have ALWAYS been treated this way by police, and some americans NEVER will. I also resent that just moving a few miles away turned me into such an astoundlingly different person that now, I am to be given the benefit of the doubt, and spoken to like an equal. Just the act of having a new address makes me far less criminal in nature, like a miracle almost… and the thing is, I and the great majority of my neighbors back in my old neighborhood, were not criminal in nature even then.
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Then I started this blog and I was surprised yet again
Same here I already knew there were whites who were evil and racist. But coming to your blog has taught that the whites who feel they are not racist like (some of the ones married to blacks) seem to be the most racist.
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Mira:
By the wall of the white self I mean that part of their pride and sense of self which is built on being white, on whites as being good and true and better than everyone else, on looking down on others.
When you say something bad about whites as a whole they take it personally. Fact and reason go out the door and their feelings take centre stage. They are “offended”. As if their feelings matter more than the truth or something.
To maintain their feeling of “I’m white, I’m good”, they sometimes wind up trying to excuse or deny the evil things whites have done and continue to do. They wind up taking positions that I thought no one in his right mind would take, like excusing the slave trade or denying the genocide of Native Americans. It is utterly breathtaking to behold.
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abagond, you have a talent for writing! i love how your posts are so clear and well organised. like someone said earlier, it must be your computer background. i’ve read about racism from a wide variety of sources in my own search for understanding, and your blog really stands out. when i read about race from academics, it just annoys me that there is so much rambling with so little truth. when i read your blog, i’m thinking, yes, Yes, YES! this should be required reading.
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Abagond, you got it. Being a white man I have never understand why some other whotes are so quick to explain things that white have done in the past. Like if you have a good enuff explanation the deed itself becomes somehow less.
How blacks were treated in the USA openly till 1960´s is something f***** unbelievable. Open racism, open segregation, open violence, open action by the KKK and others etcetc. How the hell one is going to explain that for better? There is no way. How deep racism is still in the so-called white american fabric? Very deep. It is cracking on the edges, but the core values have not yet changed.
One thing that I have found that white americans have hard time to swallow is the stealing of native americans land and killing them almost off. Destroying their religions, languages, cultures etc. Somehow this reality does not seep in so easily. Like native american friend of mine once said: “What can you except from children of the thieves?”
What about us, the white europeans? Well two world wars with dozens of millions killed, Auschwitz and holocaust, reign of terror in Stalins USSR with tens of millions dead, Bosnia-Herzegovina etc. Not a nice record here either.
Genocide in Kongo by the belgians during the times of King Leopold.
There are many examples in history. Even today. Now, I have no idea why any white person would like to deny these things, try to make some buttering on them, but I know it happens. Like it says in one movie: excuses are like a-holes, everybodys got at least one.
For me it is essential to accept the history. One has to know what has happened. One has to try to understand how to treat fellow man regadless of who he/she is. It takes effort and time, but it can be done. I know that some do not share my idea, but I think it was the only way for me.
I started to look the history with open eyes, not trying to make it easier. What had happened had happened, what happens is happening. Took a good look at my self in the mirror. Why I think like this or that? What has been given to me through education? What is true? What is propaganda?
It took many years and not so easy sometimes but eventually I came to this conclusion: I am just me. I am responsible for myself. I am a humanbeing. I have to think myself. I will not follow anybody nor anything. I walk my own way. And this goes for everything in my life.
Mira wrote on a another thread that even if I personally refuse to accept the whole concept of race, I can’t deny that others will see me white. True, but I can look others differently. I can see them as individuals, not a bunch of some skin color, white, black, brown, yellow, pink, blue, purple, lavender nor any other. Granted, I takes an effort but it is worth while. I know it has changed my life for better and for easier.
Maybe this sounds like a some hippie crap and maybe it is. The thing is I don’t care. This is the way I try to live: color blind. For me there are no blacks in one huge global pile. There is billions of individuals whose skin happen to be bit more brown than mine. Well, I have longer beard than they. I have bigger belly. I have longer hair. These are my appearences, not white ones.
Just like this african friend of mine always says when we meet at gym: Hello my african brother! It is a joke, of course, but it has a much more wider meaning. Where homo sapiens originally came from? Every single human on earth is originally from one continent, one place on this earth. Yes. From Africa. And what does that mean?
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By the wall of the white self I mean that part of their pride and sense of self which is built on being white, on whites as being good and true and better than everyone else, on looking down on others.
There’s more. Whites usually don’t see themselves as white, but as raceless, default and neutral. So I don’t think they see things in a way of “I am white, I am good and true”, but in a way of “I am normal (neutral), they are strange and different… and I am good and true (unlike them)”.
When you say something bad about whites as a whole they take it personally. Fact and reason go out the door and their feelings take centre stage. They are “offended”. As if their feelings matter more than the truth or something.
Well, I do believe people with strong collective identities always take things personally when you talk bad about “their” group. So it’s not shocking here. What is shocking is a surprisingly low level of self-criticism, logic and rational thinking. They are quick to whine about the hurt feelings (you’re right about this one), but seem to project this to blacks (“blacks whine all the time” speech). In short, they often show their privilege and the fact they are sheltered by acting immature. Sometimes it seems they don’t know what’s out there in the real world.
Blacks often take personally when somebody criticize blacks as a whole, but they do seem more critical about themselves and their community. Sometimes it seems they know what’s out there in the real world more than a human being needs to know in order to maintain a low-stress life.
To maintain their feeling of “I’m white, I’m good”, they sometimes wind up trying to excuse or deny the evil things whites have done and continue to do. They wind up taking positions that I thought no one in his right mind would take, like excusing the slave trade or denying the genocide of Native Americans. It is utterly breathtaking to behold.
They don’t know what is like to be on the other side.
In minor instances when they do, they are shocked by this strange position that is an every day reality for so many other people who don’t share their race. (For example, they feel uncomfortable that the president is not of the same race as them, and wonder whether that means he’ll work against their interests… But they completely forget about all the previous presidents and all the people in America that didn’t share their race with them).
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@sam
Mira wrote on a another thread that even if I personally refuse to accept the whole concept of race, I can’t deny that others will see me white. True, but I can look others differently. I can see them as individuals, not a bunch of some skin color, white, black, brown, yellow, pink, blue, purple, lavender nor any other. Granted, I takes an effort but it is worth while. I know it has changed my life for better and for easier.
I hope you understand I didn’t write that as a way I believe people SHOULD behave. It would be the best for race as a concept to disappear. The thing is, today is still here and one should never forget about it.
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I didn’t grow up color-blind, but I did grow up close to “raceless”; I knew I was black but I didn’t consider it to be too significant and it didn’t define me. Although I encountered a few incidents regarding racism, I mostly wrote them off as isolated and not a true reflection of society as a whole. After all, white people liked me; I had way more issues with blacks than whites. It was only until much later that I began to pay any special attention to race, when I saw that it affects nearly everything.
Still, I don’t think about race that often in daily life, unless someone or something brings it to my attention. And I don’t think that whites are so twisted and inhumane (but I believe the majority are racist — they believe that they are superior to others). I think that they, like most people, do not care about those outside of their “group,” and are generally xenophobic, but these factors are compounded by their position in society. Some take this disregard to the level of contempt, and others take it even further to the level of hate. But I don’t believe at bottom they are heartless.
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I agree with Natasha W. The setting I grew in was very Afrocentric setting. I was taught about white racism at an early age, but my first real experiences with racism were with other blacks. I wasn’t too suprised when I had my first racist experience with whites. In fact, they both sprewed the same self-serving xenophobic BS. I think no matter what, people will always find some way to justify why they’re better than everybody else.
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No doubt there is racism in the US, but is it really all pervasive as you describe in your blog? I must be living in a dream world, but I cannot say that for the 15 years that I’ve lived in the USI have experienced pervasive racism.
I cannot even say that I indvidually have experienced racism since I’ve been living in the US.
What I have experienced is a good education system (went to Howard University), and a good workforce (work for the government). Also got married, bought a house and my first car. Sorry, but even though I am a dark skinned Black woman, I just cannot complain about “the evil White man”.
Yes, there are racists Whites in this country, but surely White racism is not the number one concern for the average Black American. What about internal problems? Out of wedlock births (70%), high school drop out rates, crime, unemployment (which is higher for minorities than for Whites)?
Great that you focus on racism, but it would be good to focus on the positive as well — write some articles on how many Blacks have overcome. Otherwise you give the impression that all Blacks are suffering under the heel of racism, which is just not true.
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“American history is a skinhead’s wet dream come true.”
And ALL skinheads are racist, neo-nazis? Good gods, man, your ignorance beggars belief.
I take serious exception, too, with the blanket stereotyping of all police as “evil to the bone”. Shouldn’t you be attacking the law and policy makers rather than the tools? Yes, there ARE plenty of crooked cops, just as there are plenty of crooked NCOs/soldiers. Shall we declare the entire US military ‘evil to the bone’ now as well?
For all the discussion of stereotypes and the damage they cause, you certainly have a lot of BS to purge yourself.
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Sorry for my grammatical errors in the post above — was rushing.
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Darth Paul:
Did I say ALL policemen or even ALL skinheads? No. Learn to READ. This is not your first time either:
I do not know if you are white but you certainly misread my posts in SOME of the very same ways that MANY white people do (and very FEW black people do):
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Forgive me here,
When you hear this type of statement:
“I cannot even say that I indvidually have experienced racism since I’ve been living in the US”.
Then one needs to take a step back and start to think critically ‘outside of the box’
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To Mira:
Whites also seem to have problems in seeing non whites as individuals
How do Serbs, Muslims, and Croatians see each other in the former Yugoslavia?
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This is a great post Abagond. I wasn’t raised to be colorblind and had exposure to white racism early on because I was bussed to a majority-white school. However, I continue to be surprised by how deep it all goes. You point out the truth about the stereotype that blacks are oversensitive to racism and see it everywhere. The fact of the matter is, we don’t even notice a lot of it because we don’t know it could be any different. It is also very shocking just how bad white people are. To paraphrase James Weldon Johnson, fighting for racial equality is about the souls of white people every bit as much as it is about protecting the bodies of people of color. There is something seriously wrong.
“American history is a skinhead’s wet dream come true. All the racism which drove that and excused it did not just disappear one fine day in 1965.”
LOL exactly. Skinhead ideals ruled America through most of its existence. President Harding was inducted into the Klan during his presidency for goodness sakes (and he was one of the more tolerant presidents). The first blockbuster was “Birth of a Nation”. White people who think racism is a matter of individual bad actors are sorely mistaken. But then again, they’re not really mistaken are they. They know what the deal is which is why they fight so hard to protect it.Racism is built into every institution and ideal this country has.
When people bring up racist black cops, it’s like they don’t realize (or admit) that it is law enforcement itself which is a racist institution with the goal of upholding white supremacy.
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what do you mean by “learn everything you can about being black”? some things are black, and others arent? I dont get it
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Since when did these so called “internal problems” exist in a vacuum? They’re all interrelated with racism/white supremacy.
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To Jade:
Out of wedlock births, high school drop out rates, crime, unemployment (which is higher for minorities than for Whites)?
They’re all interrelated with racism/white supremacy.
Labor force participation was as high (and in some cases higher..) for Black Americans than White Americans from 1890 to 1930. In 1930 out of wedlock births to Blacks was about 1/7 of the current White rate. Presumably during these times the level of White Supremacy was higher than today.
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How do Serbs, Muslims, and Croatians see each other in the former Yugoslavia?
They all see each other as devilish crap and blame each other for war, hate, mass murders and genocide. No seeing individuals here.
But being white is not an issue here. It’s not the same as in America, where being white “means something”. In my part of the world, being white doesn’t mean anything, since everybody are white.
By all means, whites don’t see other whites (of different ethnicities) as individuals. I assume different African ethnic groups don’t see their (black) enemies as individuals. It’s not the issue here. But I fail to see how this has anything to do with situation in America.
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Patricia Kayden said:
“Yes, there are racists Whites in this country, but surely White racism is not the number one concern for the average Black American. What about internal problems? Out of wedlock births, high school drop out rates, crime, unemployment (which is higher for minorities than for Whites)?”
I agree with Jade that most of these are not “internal problems”. Out-of-wedlock births probably is internal, but not the others. That is why I brought up the Sioux Indians – they have many of these very same issues.
For example, there are not many blacks in South Dakota, so guess who gets sent to prison instead at twice the rates of whites? The Sioux.
So if there are black pathologies then there are Sioux pathologies too that for some strange reason are almost the same.
I went to New Zealand, which whites took from the Maoris. Guess where I saw the Maori? Working at fast food joints and on sports posters. Guess who sang the number one song of all time in New Zealand? Maoris. Guess who lives in poor neighbourhoods with gang problems? Maoris. It felt like the Twilight Zone.
The “internal problems” of blacks, the Sioux and Maoris are way too much alike. That means the cause is most likely something they have in common: all three were dispossessed by white Anglos and now live in a society run by them.
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So if there are black pathologies then there are Sioux pathologies too that for some strange reason are almost the same.
Oh please, Abagond. It’s like you never heard most non-white people are the same and share the same pathologies.
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With regard to:
“Out-of-wedlock births probably is internal”
I know I have said previously, that when discussing ‘race’ one should ideally stick to ‘race’ and when one discusses ‘human’ things, then one can discuss this matter, regarding ‘human-ness’
Perhaps its because I live within Europe.
‘Out of wedlock births’, I would classify not as ‘internal’.
There is definitely a shift with regard to this family pattern, and you can observe it throughout Europe and also other parts of the world too.
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To Mira:
It’s not the issue here. But I fail to see how this has anything to do with situation in America.
It has to with how humans view each other in a group dynamic.
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It has to with how humans view each other in a group dynamic.
So?
Are you saying you agree with me that whites don’t see blacks as individuals? Or what?
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@ Mira
whites don’t see blacks as individuals? Or what?
Does this mean you can apply the same generalization that blacks don’t see whites as individuals? Just curious…
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I do believe blacks often fail to see whites as individuals, but to a lesser extend. Now, I don’t have any data to back this up, but it seems logical. They live in a world where whites are more powerful, so they are used at seeing various examples of whites and whiteness all over the place (media, for example). Unlike them, whites don’t have many opportunities to see many different examples of blackness, save for a few stereotypes.
The same mechanism works when it comes to culture. Blacks know whites and white culture much better than whites know blacks and their culture. Not because blacks are smarter or more insightful, but because they live in a world where white culture is everywhere. For example, at school, you have to read many books written by white authors, you learn white history at a greater level than black authors and black history.
The same mechanism works outside race. For example, non-Americans know much more about America than Americans know about foreigners.
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But don’t get me wrong, I do think blacks often fail to see whites as individuals. (In a way they also think a person did something because he or she is white, not because he (she) is this unique individual.
It is common to see members of another group- especially the one that is your “enemy” as a collective, not individuals.
The problem is, whites still have more power so their not seeing other groups as individuals have more devastating effects. (Same goes for other groups with more power: men, heterosexuals, Americans…)
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@ Mira
Thanks for explaining. I appreciate it. I agree that it is actually all too common to “see members of another group as a collective” rather than individuals. I guess this is one truth of the human condition across our planet.
Perhaps this is one of the reasons Brazilian culture leans towards the tendency of ambiguity and compromise rather than strict definition of said categories: such as race, politics, religion, etc… (Notive I left out Soccer – LOL -speaking of their national teams of course)
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Abagond, I enjoy reading your thoughts…I have probably not experienced the things you have because we lived in an area that was heavily populated with immigrants (in Florida)…but I have lived for a short while in New Jersey, Maryland, and Georgia…big difference in attitudes…and of course, once I joined the workforce and the dating scene…I got to experience prejudice and stereotypes first hand.
@Mira,
“Whites also seem to have problems in seeing non whites as individuals but individuals who might have a different experience, or culture. So they either try to treat them as “normal and usual” people (read: white) and are surprised to hear this person has a different experience or is discriminated against, OR they try to respect a cultural difference but they fail miserably by seeing a non-white person as a different species.”
I see where you are coming from Mira, when I first came to US, I was disgusted by how much whites (Americans) marginalized people of colour…and, I believe they know the differences in culture or at least, they believe the stereotypes they are fed of different cultures and they interact with POC based on those stereotypes…when I first started working, my white coworkers felt comfortable enough around me to tell me what they thought about our black American coworkers because they thought I was “different, I don’t talk or act like them”…
I think almost every country has a group that they marginalize based on race, complexion, religion or social class.
What I found to be a resounding theme that the majority group likes to say, is that the minority group they are marginalizing are inferior human beings that are “lazy, loud, unclean, violent, have no ambition, have a bunch of kids, have no historical or financial significance to the country (except to bleed the government dry) i.e. working class vs. middle/upper class…and my favorite, (if it applies) “they need to go back to where they came from…such as the Gypsy’s in Czech & Slovakia, Turks in Germany”
when I first arrived in Germany, I lived first 6 months with a German family…I was advised to be careful about going into a certain part of town because mostly Turkish people lived there… I said, “So?”, my answer “well, they are not good people”–the Turks were described as I stated above–loud, dirty, etc…I thought about it and said to them,”well, this is what white people think of blacks, so the Turks are my brothers!”….
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@ Linda –
Funny you mention “the Turks” in Germany. I was stationed in Germany as part of the military and often found myself hanging out (with my peers) in the same places as the Turks. Why??? We both came from marginalized groups except my group was that of the lowly “U.S. Soldier”. We weren’t allowed in the ‘higher end’ clubs.
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To Mira:
Are you saying you agree with me that whites don’t see blacks as individuals? Or what?
I think humans, in general objectify one another. I tend to agree with your post from before.
“I do believe humans are born good and innocent. But this innocence is lost really quickly; you cans see the first signs of it by they reach the age of 4.
Also, I do believe there are good people, as individuals. However, a group of people is never (or rarely) good.
I also believe people rarely care about the things that don’t concern them or their group.”
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Abagond:
You left out a stage – stage 6. When you no longer care what other people or “races” think.
I’m a mix of three races and I’ve been shunned by all three throughout my life. High school was the toughest – being called a “moolie” (think about that next time you label someone a mulatto) by all three. I never had a step 3 because I’ve never really been accepted by any “race”.
Please explain step 4:
“what you learned becomes part of your identity, who you are, which helps to undo the internalized racism you have unknowingly learned. You become less angry, more hopeful”
I understand the part about what you’ve learned becoming part of your identity. However, where is the undoing of the internalized racism you (I,we) have unknowingly learned? Is this blog part of the undoing?
I am not being critical by any means, I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from.
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Still waiting for a response…
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Clear:
My apologies.
1. The stage model in the post is for those in America who are accepted by blacks but not by whites. If you are part black and part white but accepted by neither, then it goes something like this:
2. If you want to understand the black model better, I did a full post on it here:
3. Internalized racism: America tries to brainwash you into thinking “white is right” and everything else is screwed up. If you are not white then you need to be unbrainwashed, you need to unlearn the lies that American society tells you.
Many of the posts on this blog are about my own unbrainwashing. Some whites think I am trying to make them look bad or trying to reform them. No, it is way more self-centred than that. It is about unlearning what they have been telling me all these years.
More here:
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[…] "I write about racism in America because it affects my life and the lives of those I care about. Because it has shaped how I experience and see the world and myself, so by understanding racism I understand myself and the world better. It has little to do with trying to make whites look bad or making some kind of appeal to them." […]
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[…] Read original story here. […]
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Still?
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I guess so.
I guess I am too.
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My fam moved to upstate New York in Rochester. They were called “Niggers” etc and people only think the south is racist.
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