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Halle Berry is not the most beautiful black woman in the world

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and to this beholder Halle Berry is hardly the most beautiful black woman in the world. I have several lists of beautiful women on this blog and people keep asking, “Where’s Halle?” So this keeps coming up. I will write my opinion in this post and point readers to it.

First of all, I do think Halle Berry is beautiful. I never said she was ugly and never would. I am not blind. I have thought she was beautiful ever since 1992 when I saw her in “Boomerang” (pictured). She was in “Jungle Fever” the year before but there she played a crack lady so her beauty was not apparent (not unless you thought about it).

So it is not a question of whether she is beautiful but only if she is the most beautiful. On that score I think there are plenty of black women who are better looking, like  Angela Bassett, Sade, Tyra Banks, Gabrielle Union and Lisa Bonet to take some better known examples.

Some women I just cannot tear my eyes off of – like Gabrielle Union, Lisa Bonet and Sanaa Lathan. Halle Berry does not affect me that way. So that is another way I know she is not the most beautiful, not to me.

When I look at Halle Berry I can tear my eyes off of her. She is pleasant to look at and has a nice smile, but there does not seem to be anything deep to it. When I look at her eyes I feel nothing. When I look at Lisa Bonet’s or Sade’s eyes, for example, I do feel something, they get to me, they draw me in. I generally like women with beautiful eyes and lips and a thick figure. Halle Berry has none of that.

Even in “Boomerang” itself I thought Robin Givens and certainly Lela Rochon were better looking (but not Grace Jones). Even Toni Braxton, who sang a song for the film, I thought was better looking.

lela13.jpg

Back then my judgement on the matter was much purer: Halle Berry was not yet a big name in Hollywood and I did not know she was half white, so those things could not affect my judgement.

It seems like what Beyonce is to music, Halle Berry is to black beauty: both seem to be pushed by Hollywood, their publicists or whoever, way beyond their merits. They are both good, but not that good. You wind up getting sick of them, almost hating them.

Hollywood seems to push Halle Berry as the height of black beauty. I mean, she is a black beauty, of course, but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.

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633 Responses

  1. “but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.”

    I have to agree with this. Although I do think she is pretty no doubt, but she is not the most beautiful to me. I think people are saying that because she is hyped up as so. Same with Beyonce. Oh yeah I love Lisa Bonet. She is so hippie I love it!

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  2. You are to get jumped on for this Abagond be prepared. Same for what you said about Beyonce lol

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  3. I co-sign. Halle is pretty but I think Res puts her to shame. Also, I think there maybe a typo in the lines:

    “not without an effort. Halle Berry does affect me that way. So that is another way I know she is not the most beautiful, not to me.”

    Shouldn’t it be that she “doesn’t” have that affect on you?

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  4. Thank you Abagond for writing this post. I’m sick of mainstream media dictating who’s beautiful and who isn’t when it comes to Black women. Besides, they only anoint one Black beauty at a time. Yes, Halle is certainly beautiful but there are thousands of Black woman celebs who are beautiful but aren’t showcase in any form.

    La Reyna

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  5. Yeah Dani Abadond better prepare for all the Halle defender LOL

    But seriously I too think Halle is pretty but not the most beautiful black woman there is.

    What I dislike is that when I’m watching some type of makeover reality show thing and they are making over a black woman they always say “you are going look like beyonce or Halle.” I mean are they the only black women in Hollywood?

    I remember being at a photoshoot and the photographer was saying “Be more Beyonce.” and i said “I was thinking more Tyra or Brandy, some other famous black woman besides Beyonce”

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  6. Gen:

    Thanks for catching that typo! I think Res is better looking too.

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  7. Aiyo said

    What I dislike is that when I’m watching some type of makeover reality show thing and they are making over a black woman they always say “you are going look like beyonce or Halle.” I mean are they the only black women in Hollywood?

    LMAO yes! I’ve noticed this on makeover show when they makeover a Black woman. They always use Halle and Beyonce like they are the only Black women celebs that are pretty smh. That’s why I can’t stand the way they use women of color as “one beauty at a time” it’s frusturating,

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  8. In that picture of Halle Berry she could be my sister, and there are no recent white folks in my genealogy, so I don’t understand what you think about pushing white beauty, unless it is the straight hair.

    I think you like a more angular quality to a woman’s face. My son loves Angela Bassett, even though she’s old enough to be his older sister.

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  9. Wow! I never thought of Halle’s beauty being more about white beauty than Black, but that would explain white people’s obsession with her, and why she’s pushed as being the best representation of Black beauty by whites. I never really got the obsession with her either. She’s a very pretty lady, but I see ordinary Black women who I think are much more beautiful almost every day of my life.

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  10. omg aiyo my mom has done whole celeb compaarisom thing to me various times…i dont like make up and stuff and one time me and her were walking through the cosmetics section talking about hair and non-stop she would mention halle berry, and im like “so??” i think she did that mostly because that was the only biracial celebrity she knew (surprisingly she found out she was biracial before i did) and i think she felt i needed a celebrity to feel that something was okay to do.

    i actually don’t like to look up to celebs. because its a total let down.

    and i might be alone in this but i actually like halle berry with longer hair. but i haven’t seen any of her acting other than in a few scenes of gothika and catwoman and honestly they weren’t that good, at least to me anyways.

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  11. oh yeah there was another movie i saw her in where she was a murderer, and the ending was a total letdown.

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  12. alwaysright101 said:

    oh yeah there was another movie i saw her in where she was a murderer, and the ending was a total letdown.

    That ending was garbage. You talking about “Perfect Stranger”? That film was trying to recreate the cycle theme.

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  13. abagond,dani,Gen,LaReyna,and Aiyo,
    I agree with all of your comments regarding the use of Halle to represent “THE HEIGHT” of Black beauty.

    It is OFFENSIVE to see the American media world OVERHYPE Halle’s beauty, NARROWLY DEFINE Black beauty to ONLY include BW who resemble Halle/Beyonce, and continue promoting the LIE that BW who DON’T look like Halle/Beyonce are “ugly”.

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  14. Halle Berry looks just like my Auntie Niecy, so while I think she’s pretty I’m not in awe of her beauty of anything. Part of what makes HB so relatable (relatively) is that she looks like someone you (could) know. By the time I knew who she was (I probably first learned of her sometime in the 90s when I stopped watching Disney movies exclusively, lol), the fact that she was biracial was widespread. I wonder how many people would guess she was “just” Black if they didn’t know her background?

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  15. Abagond,

    You are correct sir. Halle Berry is indeed beautiful but she is certainly not the most beautiful woman that can be proffered by the black branch of the human family tree. I would choose Sanaa Lathan over her any day of the week. True Story!

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  16. You definitely nailed it when you said that the American standard of beauty is basically the white American standard of beauty.

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  17. @ Jasmin

    I agree I think that is part of her appeal she is looks like a pretty woman that we may know she’s that so called “girl next door” (BTW I hate that term who are these people living next door to?)

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  18. If you look at the main black actresses from the point of view of someone who likes how black women look, Halle Berry does not stand out. But if you look at them from the point of view of white beauty, she does. The powers that be in Hollywood are mainly white, so that is why they hold her up. It is certainly not based on her acting talent – Angela Bassett has her beat there by a long shot.

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  19. Abagond,

    but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty

    Really? I mean, she truly looks like plenty 100% black women.

    If she didn’t say her mother was YT nobody would know, she’s biracial.

    she has a nose job and get lighter with the time (BTW).

    But like you I did find her cute before being well known and she does have a gorgeous body.

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  20. When I saw her in “Boomerang”, before I knew about her mother, I thought she was just plain black.

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  21. Quite true, a lot of these women do nip and tuck their noses to look “whiter” I know Halle had a softer nose so did Toni Braxton, Tyra, Kimora, Beyonce(I suspect Kelly and Alicia Keyes as well) and yes even Britney Spears and Angelina Jolie cut up their noses. And could somebody please tell Rihanna that skin bleach isn’t going to be disconinued next week (Also I’ve heard a few White men say they like her eyes but can’t stand her nose) When I ask why, no one can answer, wonder why?

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  22. Who are you!? Get out of my head!Everything you said about Halle,yes!About Beyonce,yes!Their beautiful women but that’s it.Pretty faces.All those pictures had my tounge waggin.It’s like,you’re in my head.And where ARE all the Clair Huxtables?I have to watch the Cosby Show on DVD to get my fix.I love her.
    Anyway thanks makeing the day.PEACE.

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  23. on Wed Nov 25th 2009 at 23:15:46 Patricia Kayden

    Hey Everyone:

    What do you guys mean by “black African features”?

    http://www.tadias.com/05/22/2009/ethiopian-born-sarah-nuru-is-germanys-next-top-model/

    http://www.starpulse.com/Actresses/Iman/Pictures/

    Do Ethiopians have “black African features”?

    I think you guys are generalizing what constitutes Black beauty -the same as Whites, but from a different angle. I don’t believe there is any such thing as “black features” or “white features”. I have an Aunt who is lightskinned – the only one in a Black Jamaican family. She, like Halle could not pass as White.

    As far as I am concerned, if you could pass as White, you are White. White people, not Blacks, make that determination, by the way. Halle has never been described as “half-White”. I’ve always heard her described as a Black woman with a White mother, which is how she describes herself.

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  24. on Wed Nov 25th 2009 at 23:25:41 Menelik Charles

    Hi guys,

    I think you’ll find that whites feel kinship with Halle because she makes them feel comfortable in their own collective skins.

    My personal research conducted over 20 years (since aged 17) would suggest that dark-skinned, negroid featured Black women are the subject of a great deal of sub-conscious envy where whites, especially women, and lust, especially men, are concerned.

    The process by which this occurs is called REACTION FORMATION…GOOGLE IT!

    Anyway, the evidence thus far would indicate an underlying conspiracy to marginalise the allure of the dark-skinned Black woman, and deny it most publically by elevating the likes of Halle Berry as the acceptble face of ‘Black beauty’.

    Nothing could be further from the truth! She is merely a front concealing the extent to which whites envy and secretly lust after unambiguous Black women.

    All the evidence I possess (non of which is tainted by personal opinion) would indicate as much.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ps I will be writing a book on the subject in the next two years.

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  25. Hey Everyone:

    What do you guys mean by “black African features”?

    i think the commenters mean west african features.

    Like


  26. on Thu Nov 26th 2009 at 00:01:28 Menelik Charles

    anongrl said:

    What do you guys mean by “black African features”?

    i think the commenters mean west african features.

    Menelik replies:

    I think they mean negroid features…which would COVER east, west, south and central Africa.

    Yes?

    menelik Charles
    London England

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  27. on Thu Nov 26th 2009 at 00:19:56 OneBrownSnowPea

    I agree with what you have said. Halle and Beyonce are beautiful but not the most beautiful.

    I always thought Halle looked black. She has the dark, almond shaped eyes, full lips, and full high cheekbones I see on alot of black women. Especially in the picture above I don’t see anything white in her features.

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  28. Halle Berry, like Nubiah, Jasmine and Dani pointed over looks VERY black. Maybe, because, um, well…SHE IS. LOL.

    Like I’ve said several times before on this blog, the obession that Americans have with black/white offspring never fails to amaze me! And it’s not about racial heritage, I can tell you that. It’s about the concepts of “black” and “white” and where black children from an union between the two “racial extremes” lie in those ideas.

    Halle is surely a very pretty lady. She has a great smile and as an ex-beauty queen, she possesses a naturally gracious ladylike poise. Add to that, she has a feline sex appeal that never comes across as raunchy or forced. Overall, I can see Halle’s appeal.

    Despite all of that, she’s HARDLY the most beautiful amongst women of ANY race. Hell, outside of her physical, she’s not much of a catch either. Amongst the industry, she’s a known kook with more issues (and hangups) than Time, Life and People Weekly put together. Her repuation as a “door knob” (’cause everyone got a turn!) amongst black Hollywood actors is just as famous as her scattershot mental state. She’s a fruitcake, to putly it succintly!

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  29. hahaha mynameismyname is correct. People are obssessed with Black/White unions than any other interracial unions. It’s also funny how people are saying she looks like someone in their family. The funny thing is she does look largely more Black than White. I feel that way about Barack Obama. He looks like my uncle. Anyways, I do think that since Halle mentioned that she had a white mother, Hollywood was more willing to accept her as their own and made her play more non-marginalized Black woman roles. Before she mentioned she had a white mother, she was playing more stereotypcial Black woman roles. Not only that her persona is universal. She has a persona that is not stereotypical of a Black woman so that helps. Halle is pleasing to the eye and has a very classy poise, but I don’t think she is the most beautiful not even Beyonce and Beyonce does not have a classy poise to me at all. She sounds like she barely can speak like she has peanut butter stuck her throat. That is just unattractive to me, regardless of gender or race. Anyways, I do see the hype because she does have some appeal the way she walks and carry herself(even though I think her personality is boring) but looks and talent wise there are women who put her to shame.

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  30. ^^
    Right, Dani.

    Halle has appeal for the reasons I described above. But still, there’s millions of black women the world over (some famous, most not) who have way more appeal than she does. Just how white plain janes like Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz (who I think is ugly) are hyped as “premier Hollywood beauties” despite the fact that they are nothing special in comparison to everyday women of ANY RACE, Halle is seen as the “premier black beauty” even when she clearly doesn’t come close to earning that title. Despite the fact that she does have SOME appeal. Hollywood likes to hype up the average. Hence, why us folks who “are in the know” shouldn’t put too much value in what they promote.

    Yes! Beyonce is so inarticulate that it is not even funny! Why a 30-something-year-old woman who has boasted about attending private schools as a youngster speaks (and carries herself) like a 8th grade dropout is beyond me!

    Matthew Knowles should have invested all that money he spent on his daughter’s wacky weaves and tacky outfits and brought her a diction coach and hell, a few English classes at a local Houston-area community college! LOL. The entertainment industry sure houses a bunch of dummies! This high class chickenhead and luny-ass Halle are two of them!

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  31. Her repuation as a “door knob” (’cause everyone got a turn!) amongst black Hollywood actors is just as famous as her scattershot mental state. She’s a fruitcake, to putly it succintly!

    Spill Mynameismyname, spill! More gossip! LOL! I haven’t heard that comparison to a door knob in a donkey’s age! Are you sure you’re not one of those gossip writers? Just kidding. Is she still a door knob?

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  32. Gosh! You hit the nail on the head eveytime!

    I agree 100%. She is beautiful but:

    1.) Not representative of black women…
    2.) Not exotic but commerical…
    3.) A very safe form of black beauty…

    I think Iman in her 40s is more beautiful than Halle in her 20s!

    I’ve always felt this way yet never had it articulated so accurately.

    Awesome job Abagond!

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  33. Lol wow I thought I was the only one who thinks Cameron Diaz and Jennifer Aniston are ugly.

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  34. Gen,

    You are not the only one! Neither of those ladies are the prettiest sheep in the bunch.

    Jessica,

    Yeah, Aba articulated how I felt about Berry quite well. His posts often take the words out of my mouth.

    Herneith,
    Well, birds of a feather flock together so it was of no surprise to anyone in the industry that Halle’s marriages to David Justice and Eric Benet failed before they even started. Justice and Benet were/are both known “male-whores.” Let’s just say that Halle was their counterpart, on that level. LOL.

    Like Julia Roberts, she had a habit of “bedding” her male co-stars (most of whom were black). Unlike Roberts, she also had the habit of obsessively trying to start a relationship with them and going “psycho” on them when they didn’t oblige. Ever wonder why she never worked with Spike Lee again?! True story!

    Wesley Snipes, Larenz Tate and Omar Epps are just three examples of high-profile actors who have also “worked” (with) Berry before.

    Ever wonder why she’s with a barely-famous white man now? Her reputation among the black men in the industry was so badly damaged that she had no choice, really. (Michael Ealy was her last victim). She’s “damaged goods” to the ‘brothers’ in H-Town.

    So not only is she not as beautiful as the media pretends she is, she’s no catch personality-wise. I really hope that now that she’s a middle-aged mother of a toddler, she’ll get the mental help and emotional closure she really needs.

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  35. @ Gen

    Nope. The world is full of “Fred Sanford’s Ugly White Women”
    haha

    But its the white media that pushes this myth that they are so beautiful and would have everyone and his mother believe that every white woman who ever lived and the ones walking the earth now are so much more beautiful/better looking than any woman of color (especially black women).

    Mirrors don’t lie, but the white media does. Especially when it comes to the “White Women are the Epitome of Beauty Lie” 🙂

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  36. mynameismyname said :

    Yes! Beyonce is so inarticulate that it is not even funny! Why a 30-something-year-old woman who has boasted about attending private schools as a youngster speaks (and carries herself) like a 8th grade dropout is beyond me!

    Matthew Knowles should have invested all that money he spent on his daughter’s wacky weaves and tacky outfits and brought her a diction coach and hell, a few English classes at a local Houston-area community college! LOL. The entertainment industry sure houses a bunch of dummies! This high class chickenhead and luny-ass Halle are two of them!

    You need to fall back because Beyonce stans spot a unfavorable post about Bey from a mile away LOL. I think this chick largely lacks speaking skills and people should not be an apologist for her illiteracy. Blaming her speaking skills on her shyness is not an excuse. Michael and Janet Jackson are very shy individuals but they speak well. People make fun of Fantasia but at least she admits her struggle with reading. While, Beyonce fronts and hype up the fact she attended private school which made matters worst. Either her school was terrible at teaching those students or Beyonce is not too bright. I noticed that they don’t hype her doing well in school or in home schooling, so I think Matthew just rather not hype that up lol because he know she slow. It makes me sick to my stomach seeing her speak and make a fool of herself on television. She is been in the game for 12 years and still sounds like a kid. A near thirty something woman should not be talking like that.

    As far as Halle you need to spill the tea because people have been making fun of this chick for being crazy for a long time. I still haven’t got an explanation.

    I do agree that Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz are not attractive right along with Gwenyth Paltrow, Hillary Swank, and Maggie Gyllenhall. I saw her in Dark Knight and wanted to puke. It amazes me that she still gets to play the love interest and the woman that two men are falling for and she lacking in the looks department looking so damn old. While Black actresses who put her to shame can’t even get to play a love interest or any role in big budget Hollywood film.

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  37. oh okay I read your post mynameismyname. Wow so she did indeed sleep with out alot of her make co-stars. It’s one thing to be quite loose, but its another thing to be labled crazy. Did she stalk them after her encounters with them? I know that she was in a bad relationship with one of the guys she was with who knocked her ear drum out. Do you think her emotional needs are quite inbalanced because of her previous relationships and because of a lack of a father figure? I can see how that can mess someone up though.

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  38. on Thu Nov 26th 2009 at 05:29:04 Menelik Charles

    @Dani,

    you’re such a cute looking sista…really, you don’t need to be bitching about women the way you’re presently doing.

    Stay cute, sista friend!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

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  39. Dani,

    Beyonce isn’t very bright, at all. I feel that this plays a big part in why the white media feels so comfortable boosting her up. If she were intelligent and spoke articulately, she’d threaten them (like Lauryn did).

    As far as Ms. Berry:

    Oh, D, people aren’t just clowning this lady when they call her crazy. They’re stating the truth. Her neurotic behavior on the set of some of her (decidely crappy) films is well known. The faint spells; the odd phobias; the bumping into equipment which is right in her view. The list goes on.

    Yes, she would continually try to persue a serious relationship with these actors who thought of their acquaintance with her as a mere fling. Obsessively so, I must add. Stalking was merely one compontent of that.

    The “broken ear drum” story which she seems to trots out to the press for sympathy actually involves Spike Lee directly, although Spike isn’t the one responsible for the alleged damage to her ear.

    Again, this woman truly, truly has some deeply rooted issues. I don’t how much her absentee father (who she’s described as abusive and alcohol-dependent) plays into them. Really, Halle’s trajectory sadly recalls a modern-day “tragic mulatto” tale.

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  40. @ menelik Charles

    thank you for the compliment. I might sound like I’m bitching about some of these women but I’m not. Just criticizing how hollywood marginailizes women of color and choosing very few women of color to be a representative of their entire race or ethnicity. I don’t think that’s fair at all to us. Don’t worry I’m not like this all the time lol

    @ mynameismyname

    So you saying socially awkward? I can tell sometimes in her interviews. She seems nice but very strange. Maybe the lack of a positive father figure in her life that has caused her to be obsessive with the men in her relationship you know needing that closure. I mean its understandable, however, I hope she is doing fine now and finding herself. Maybe she came around when she had her baby. For some people it does that. When a baby comes around they start acting right lol. I didn’t want to come out and say it, but yeah when she talked about her experience growing up, her childhood does sound like the stereotypical tragic mullato story, which worked in her favor to capture the mainstream attention. I like Halle actually. Just do not think that she is representative as a standard for Black beauty.

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  41. I remember years ago….maybe 1992 in Ebony when I saw in the table of contents the Most Beautiful Black Woman voted by Black Americans. So when I turned to the page and saw Halle, I thought aloud, Her!!! My mom heard me and said, “That’s what I said.” At that time, I didn’t know who she was and had not seen her in anything. I was about 12 at the time. Now granted the woman is pretty, very pretty and can look quite beautiful at times, but to be labeled the most beautiful black woman confounded me even at the tender age of 12.

    I think that the media sees Halle’s beauty as safe because it’s not “too black” to disrupt the eurocentric standard of beauty and it’s not “too white”. It’s just safe……Now it seems that she gets called the most beautiful out of habit.

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  42. @mynameismyname:
    You mean she did her best work on her ‘back’? The only movie I’ve ever seen her in was the Spike Lee one where she played a drug addict. If there were any others, I can’t remember them.

    @Menelik:
    It’s not bitching, it’s gossip!

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  43. I truly believe that Halle Berry being the epitome of beauty was soley based on her short hair cut in the beginning of her career. Up to that point, there was no one who was pretty and feminine to carry such a short style. That style really set her apart from the rest. If she would have had long hair when she debuted, she would have been just another pretty actress. That cut was the best career decision she’s ever made.

    From that, she got “the most beautiful woman in the world” label and it has stuck. That along with how she carried herself.

    Mynameismyname, I’d always heard that she was unstable, but I wasn’t sure if it was true.

    One thing that bothers me about her is that she always plays the victim. There are women who go through far more than her without all of the money, fame and adoration.

    Also, I hate to say this, but I was very disappointed when she one the Oscar. I think it was undeserved and felt that Angela was far more deserving. But Halle has an excellent manager to promote her.

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  44. beautiful black woman are young cicecly tyson,sanaa lathan,angela bassett,solange knowles,jurnee smollett,naturi naughton ,karyn white,amber efe,fatou ndiaye,tonto dike,eva pigford,jody watley,chilli of tlc, nse ikpe etim,lopez sisters of dynasty,nona gaye,anika noni rose,keke palmer.

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  45. Great list!

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  46. You are right!Robert Uyi. Halley berry is indeed beautiful but certainly not among the most beautiful black women.Personally i think phyllica Ra shad(Claire huxtible) and Iman should make this list.

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  47. Halle may not be number one on your list.She is number one on mine.She is always giving to charity and always have a helping hand.Thats a blessing.Thats what makes her beautiful.Halle keep up the good work. (added by Mobile using Mippin)

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  48. @ mynameismyname
    I’m sorry but what you are spouting here is some of the most obnoxious, ridiculous, ‘has nothing to do with the topic’ crap I have ever heard.

    So the ‘brothers’ say she is a door knob everyone had a turn.. really? and you have the temerity to repeat it like it’s gospel.
    what does that make them? hmmm.. the ones who seem to have no problem being with the ‘door knob’ until she leaves them and then it’s all good.

    So these brothers go around talking about who they do? what are they? High school kids excited about having sex with a woman?.

    – Hands up any girl here who has heard on the grapevine that some dude ‘allegedly slept with you or ‘popped your cherry’?

    – Hands up or please start reeling out names of dudes who say they have had you seven ways from sundown and even describe to their boys how you allegedly act in bed. How you scream?. the things you say.. describe you as a wild child or a hoochie who every one has had… and at the time you were still a freaking virgin!

    How many black men have described all of us black women as whores, too loud, bat shit crazy!, not quite there, dumb e.t.c.? e.t.c.

    Seriously, how many times do we have to drill it into our heads that people say the darnest things when they can’t get their way, own or possess you. The things people say about that woman.. they will turn around and say it about you.

    I wonder mynameismyname were you right there with them when they were with her?.
    I mean halle is 40+ years old and you’ve mentioned what 5/6 dudes 2 of which she married?.

    How did we go from, Halle Berry is not the epitome of black beauty to .. ohh she’s never made a good movie bar one (as if she is in charge of writing the scripts.. the woman is trying to work and earn money. you take whatever project comes your way until you can afford not to!)

    Do any of you guys give your real life friends grief because the companies they work for produce craptastic products? do you rail against them and castigate them?.

    So she’s clumsy?. so what? I’m clumsy too. I bump into things, trip over my feet, so what?

    The woman is diabetic. Is it possible that she could have been having fainting spells because she was low on insulin or is that too simple an explanation?.
    So what if she is not a genius? Are you?. She’s not a genius but she still managed to manoeuvre her way into a difficult industry and carve a little thing out of it.
    There are countless beauty queens who are doing playboy, penthouse, spreading their legs for money and you have the nerve no the audacity to critique her for what she does in private.

    You know what.. this is utterly, utterly ridiculous.

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  49. you know I have to laugh…
    One of those brothers made her deaf in one ear! In the real world that alone affects balance (but I guess that’s another too simplistic explanation)

    The minute halle berry married that white dude she became ‘trash’ in the eyes of soo many ‘brothers’.
    now she’s crazy, mentally unstable, strange, a hoochie, a ‘door knob’ wow. just wow!

    Yet not 1 sex tape circulating.
    But Kim Kardasian can put her things out blatantly for the camera and the ‘brothers’ come running trying to wife her.

    We’ve gone from halle berry is not the most beautiful black woman to Halle has issues with men due to her lack of a ‘father figure’. How is this evident?.

    She had an actual relationship with Wesley ‘black women are not subservient enough/Mr erectile dysfunction’ Snipes (see we all can play that game)

    and please Wesley, Omar Epps, Michael Ealy?

    I mean really?.
    So what? She beds her co stars.. aren’t theyt bedding her too. Or is it some kinda hypnotic thing where she forces them, damn near beats them into going to bed with her.

    The ‘brothers in H-town’ lol
    The brothers never had a damn chance. We are all used to the ‘stories’ the brothers fling around when they try and can’t get it.

    i seriously can not believe the bollocks this thread has degenerated into

    Like


  50. oh and watch out now..
    Cos beyonce is a dummy!. Poor diction, tacky stage outfits, talks like an 8th grader.. yet had the good sense to get decent management, fantastic promotions deals, hook up with a mega selling ‘reformed’ about it fellow star and have one of the best work ethics out there.

    You know we reel off these incredibly insulting, patronising, damn near disgusting bile about people who have achieved excellence in their chosen industry and industry which is highly competitive and one which has no guarentees.

    yet, what in blue blazes are we doing in our own industries.

    Does it make you feel better calling beyonce dumb?. hmmm. Does it?. You know this because you’ve seen her SAT test scores right?. you’ve been in her shoes where she realises she is a business and if her business model determines that she has to speak in a monotone, permanently excited voice then that is what she is going to do to ensure her business stays being a business.

    Really… she’s dumb?. who are you to say so.
    Show us what you’ve got? what you’ve made of yourself?

    And you women co-signing this bs… damn… just damn.

    Like


  51. @ Soul

    I knid of agree that this dicussion has taken a different turn of a gossipy type of thing

    Like


  52. @Aiyo…
    gossipy?

    It has taken a turn for salacious, vindictive, cruel, unfounded, defamatory, pseudo psychological woman bashing, school boy rumour mongering, jezebel finger pointing, insulting and complete and utter vicious tripe about 2 woman who haven’t claimed to be anything other than average people trying to make a go of beign creative in a very demanding industry.

    It’s utterly, utterly bizarre. We have people who have never been close to them judging them from ‘heresay’, ‘rumour’ e.t.c.

    And nobody is even stopping to say hold on…
    hold on…
    what’s the problem if this grown woman isn’t exactly virginal?.

    How many people try to make their careers lying on their backs and how many are successful.
    These black woman are being vilified because what? they aren’t genuises, they sound ‘simple’, they like to have sex?, they are have idiosyncracies?, one suffers from fainting spells?.

    I mean, really! Halle Berry got villified and called weird and one of the reasons is because she has fainting spells!? and she’s clumsy? damn.

    I’m just like… well… like.. damn..

    Like


  53. on Thu Nov 26th 2009 at 17:17:10 OneBrownSnowPea

    Beyonce is not dumb. To grow herself into the brand she is today takes alot of planning and finesse.

    I think it is out of line to bring up Halle’s romantic past. Everyone has flaws and makes mistakes.

    You guys took the whole thing too far. SMH.

    Like


  54. Abagond how could you forget about Kenya Moore? I think she is Wayyyyy more attractive than Halle Berry.

    Like


  55. Soul,

    If certain comments bother you, just refrain from reading them. I see that my commentary on Berry’s off-stage behavior (which Aba gave me permission to tell, as long as they are on topic) really got to you. Hmm….

    The reason why I spilled the wine on Halle and told the truth about Beyonce is because like Aba, I’m tired of them being put on a pedestal above so many better looking, more talented and more mentally stable black women.

    I want people to see them for what they really are.

    Neither Halle or Beyonce are role models for black women, in terms of beauty or character. That was the point of me “airing them out”. Hope it makes sense now.

    Like


  56. Dani,

    Yes, I hope the arrival of Berry’s daughter really helps her in terms of finding some emotional clousure. I truly do. I wish her no ill. I never had any interest in her, physically or career-wise, so I did not tell what I told about her with malicious intent.

    Nubian Queen,

    If this was the movie “Purple Rain”, Morris Day would throw Halle in the garbage dump like he did that whiny singer if he saw Kenya Moore walking down the street! (Remember that scene?). Halle couldn’t see Kenya with glasses on!

    SnowPea,

    Beyonce is as dumb as a door knob. Just be real about it. You can be a fan of her “music” and still admit that. It doesn’t make her a bad person. It’s just that, she won’t be admitted into MENSA anytime soon.

    I find it interesting how people will ridicule Fantasia for how she speaks but let Beyonce’s even-worse diction slide.

    At least, Fantasia went and did something with herself by getting a GED and trying to better her speech and vocabulary.

    I also find it interesting how Halle’s known mental instability and loose ways with men gets excused, yet you guys are quick to flame Naomi Campbell’s wildly similar behavior. Is it because Naomi’s antics went public?

    Or is it a matter of…racial appearance?

    Like


  57. one thing you can say about Halle Berry is that she brings the claws out in women. i thought this was about her beauty not her character.
    where is the proof to prove these rumors? unfortunately there will always be women who are quick to join the Halle Berry hate.
    by the way the level of venom directed towards this woman is very telling.

    Like


  58. @mynameismyname…

    oh please. spilled the wine???.
    That she is a grown woman and has had sex with a few men who had no problem having sex with her and but now she’s a ‘doorknob’

    puhlease. that is one of the most bizarre and sexist stances ever

    Where you there?. Where you in the room? where you even in the building?

    So she is put on a pedestal by some people and you decided to rip her to shreds by trying to make her out to be some insane, crazy, jezebel beyotch?.

    How does that even begin to make sense.

    As a woman, I am offended by that. As a black woman I am mortally offended by that.
    Do you think that our self esteem is soo fragile that you need to rip one of us to shreds in order to make us feel better. You are severely mistaken.

    I’ll ask again, why were these men sleeping with her if they devalued her soo much. they must not have much value for themselves.

    And again…
    If beyonce is soo dumb, prove how smart you are in your chosen field?. How are you excelling?. Prove it?.

    So what these women are put on a pedestal. yep I don’t like the pedestal, they are not my most beautiful peeps but to use salacious gossip which you have absolutely no way of knowing for sure and mindless gossip at that… gossip that mnakes no sense when you view where it is coming from.. is beyond the pale and you are better than that.

    these women don’t deserve to be castigated by you, because some people chose to put them on pedestals.

    how can you even begin to justify the fact that you think having fainting spells or being clumsy makes her unstable?

    Puhlease. Today it’s beyonce & halle and what about tomorrow when white men start putting Alec Wek on a pedestal or sister soldjah… would you begin to debase them by unfounded BS as well.

    Check yourself mate.

    This is thoroughly unneccessary

    Like


  59. @just to say…

    firstly.. I’m a woman and I am defending her character and I am not the only one and I think mynameismyname is a dude as far as I can tell… so please.. let’s erm not do the ‘women hate other women stuff and are the first to tear them down business’

    Like


  60. who teh heck is saying anything about Naomi Campbell’s behaviour? She is a supermodel, she meets lots of people.. she might sleep with a few or many.. so bloody what?
    she’s an adult. The men who are sleeping with her are not exactly chaste are they?

    you know the more you say the more you keep digging yourself into a hole. If you think Halle Berry has some mental instability then how could you conciously critisize her and for what?. cos she has sex?.
    And what is this ‘known’ mental instability. please state it because I do not know it.

    And if you and your cohorts know it, then why are they taking advantage of her and sexing her? and then turning around and saying she’s a doorknob.

    Makes absolutely no sense!.

    Are the ‘H-town’ brothers soo desperate, soo depraved, soo eager that they will sleep with a so called ‘mentally unstable woman’ and then have the nerve to start insulting her. what kind of foolishness is that. Makes no sense.
    No damn sense

    Like


  61. What because we black women are blind?
    because what?. we are incapable of choosing or deciding who we want to use as a role model for a particular aspect of our lives?
    or what.. who told you that we see her as a role model?

    i suppose Wesley snipes is a role model?. or Omar epps or michael ealy?

    These women are both entertainers who have excelled in their chosen fields.

    Both Beyonce and Halle Berry are beautiful to me. Just as Alec Wek, Oprah Winfrey, Angela Bassett are beautiful.

    You took a criticism of the pedestal which they are placed on and then made completely unrelated salacious tripe and brought in their ‘characters from your point of view’ in order to debase them and make them seem inferior.

    As a woman that makes me look at you in disgust. You think debasing one woman to elevate another is a good way. Ic all foul and I’ll call foul any damn time. And if we were talking about the way white men debase their own women in order to ‘speak to black women’ you’d be calling foul.

    So please spare me.

    It’s not right when dark skinned women are debased in favour of light skinned women and it is most certainly NOT right when light skinned women are debased in favour of dark skinned women.

    You bringign their character in to play in order to do so, is beyond ridiculous and so off the mark, there is just not exit point.

    And you are still justifying it. It’s ridiculous! stop doing it.

    You did not have sex with halle berry. you were not there and I don’t believe you. why?.
    Because everyday in high school we hear the same thing.. everyday we hear boys bragging about how they did this to some girl and many of them are outright lying.

    You mention 6 men that this woman has slept with. 2 she married.. she’s 40+.
    How many women has wesley slept with?
    How many has omar epps?
    What about Michael Ealy?

    What?. they aren’t doorknobs? Can you even prove they slept with her?

    This beyond ridiculous

    I want people to see them for what they really are.

    Neither Halle or Beyonce are role models for black women, in terms of beauty or character. That was the point of me “airing them out”. Hope it makes sense now.

    Like


  62. soul,
    I agree with you that we shouldn’t be resorting to unsubstantiated gossip and sexist bashing in our opinions regarding Halle’s overhyped beauty.

    I also share your disgust with anyone who wants to JUSTIFY the use of typical (degrading/disrespectful)ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES (eg. All BW are dumb worthless sluts) to make a point about Halle or any other BW.

    I blame Hollywood’s historic ANTI-BW RACISM for the way they IGNORE MANY talented, beautiful BW and render them virtually INVISIBLE while FORCING a PHONY, NARROW image of “black beauty” (eg. Halle, Beyonce) down EVERYONE’S throat.

    I would like to see more successful Black actresses establish production companies (like Tatyana Ali-webseries producer, Jada Pinkett Smith-cable series producer, etc.) where they produce PRO-BW media that projects an ACCURATE, POSITIVE, UPLIFTING image of BW.

    Like


  63. I have heard many people who have the same feelings as you about Halle Berry, but I somewhat disagree. I do think that Halle is considered so beautiful because people know that she is half white but I do not think it is because she looks white. Halle Berry looks nothing like a white woman to me. Her features are very similar to Sanaa’s and Gabrielle’s. So when people say she looks white it confuses me. Sade and Lisa Bonet’s have more Euro features than Halle. Her appeal also has to do with her style. She has a killer body and her clothes look and fit her so well.

    Like


  64. @laroma..

    And lest we forget these are from the mouths of black men!.

    You know I just re-read many of the comments here and my nameismyname says Halle Berry married a white man because no black man would have her…
    erm screeech! halt!

    Wow, when did the script flip?. Is this what black men are saying now, that white men who we have endlessly debated on how they view us..are picking the left overs that brothers don’t want?.
    and if that’s the case, then where’s the beef?.

    I also share your disgust with anyone who wants to JUSTIFY the use of typical (degrading/disrespectful)ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES (eg. All BW are dumb worthless sluts) to make a point about Halle or any other BW.

    Like


  65. Let’s stick to the subject folks. This thread is about Halle’s beauty. What she has done in her personal, romantic life has no place here.

    I find it interesting that someone said that her hair cut was what helped her land the title of most beautiful. I think you may have a point because the hair cut was what people talked about when she came out and also the fact that she was still pretty and feminine with such a cut made her stand out even more.

    Like


  66. Funny how no one jumped up to defend Jennifer Aniston when someone said she was unattractive. (I actually like Jen–don’t think she’s the best looking girl ever, but she seems nice.)

    The problem with getting on the high horse of “How dare you say X about so-and-so?” you open yourself up to criticism about every comment you ever make about anything in life. If people can’t give their opinions, not only blogging, but also conversation, must cease to exist. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with disagreeing with someone, but chastising them for saying what they said because “It’s mean!” is basically derailment because that argument just runs in circles every time. Everybody has something negative to say about someone/something else. It’s hypocritical to say it’s “truth” when I do it, but “bashing” when others do. Plus, it reeks of self-righteousness.

    That being said, I agree, Islandgirl, that the short cut made Halle. I think she looks way better with that than with long hair (I always get a poodle vibe from her when she has that ringlet style). However, I don’t understand how some people claim to build their self-esteem off of media images. If someone told me she’d never felt beautiful because Halle Berry (or Beyonce, etc.) was the black beauty standard, I’d probably look at her funny and wonder, “What did your parents teach you?” I think media can (and does) influence us, but the critical messages are the ones you get at home.

    Like


  67. @ soul

    I’m sorry if my comments made you upset. However, I still stand by my opinion that beyonce sounds slow in her interviews. I didn’t take that away from her success at all. I’m actually quite proud of her she came a long from being the little girl in DC. However, with Halle I know mynameismyname gave his opinion on Halle being “crazy” However, I still think she is more socially awkward than crazy but I never said I disliked her or hated her.

    Like


  68. Halle did not marry Gabriel. They are just dating and raising their daughter.

    Like


  69. @shani…
    you mean like the jennifer aniston haircut kinda made her a household name?

    It’s possible. something that simple can be thrust people into the limelight and make them the instant ‘go to person’ it can also be there undoing.

    Once people got bored of the Jennifer Aniston haircut they kinda moved on to something else.. and unfortunately by that time she was typecast as a ‘goody 2 shoes, quirky comedy playing girl’.

    Yeah the ‘Halle Berry’ cut did have some effect in pushing her into the limelight.

    Like


  70. I find it interesting that someone said that her hair cut was what helped her land the title of most beautiful. I think you may have a point because the hair cut was what people talked about when she came out and also the fact that she was still pretty and feminine with such a cut made her stand out even more.

    I liked Halle better with her short hair cut than the long hair. I think her neckline is very nice and it shows it off better. Not to say she doesn’t like good with long hair, it justs with short hair it shows off her face more.

    Like


  71. @jasmin..
    if that comment was addressed to me, then my response is this..
    saying someone is crazy. a door knob has nothing to do with this pedetal thing, it is an effort to debase another black woman.. and it’s unproven.
    If you’d like to point how I’m being self righteous.. feel free.

    But I have stated time and time again here that any man who debases another woman in order to curry favour with you should be avoided like the plague.

    re: Jennifer Aniston, I’ll put my hand up now and say.. a) I didn’t notice it. and b)I always see people rush to defend white women. the post was about ‘ halle berry not being the most beautiful black woman in the world’ I focused primarily on that.

    If your comment was not intended for me, then please ignore my response.

    Like


  72. Halle has held the title for almost two decades. I think that says alot. Usually with white actresses, they choose someone different every few years. For black actresses it has been Halle since she came out in 1991. What do you all think about that? Do you think that there has been no black actress to rival her beauty, style, etc. She’s very tenacious. She makes sure every year that she is still in the game.

    Like


  73. One thing you can say about halle and no one can refute this is that she plays non-stereotypical Black women roles. And has for a very long time. Not too many Black women have gone that far too in playing non-marginalized roles. You have to give her credit for that.

    Like


  74. @dani..
    I’m not from the US, most southern drawls sound slow to me..

    But I’ll say this, you know back in the day.. Janet Jackson was considered slow because she used to take a pause when asked a question, consider it and then respond in a little girls voice.

    I saw it as part of the ‘None threatening black woman package that many black women have to effect in order to have cross over success).

    Just to clarify.. I am not upset.. I’m kinda just a lil bit bemused.. like ‘oh word’?.
    For real there are some black women co-signing this ish?.

    P.s.
    I have no problem with anyone disliking Halle or Beyonce. I don’t know them personally and I’m not related to them.

    My objection was declaring them to be jezebels, ‘door knobs’ making careers on backs branding a black woman because of ‘hearssay’ about sexual partners. which has nothing to do with anything.

    Declaring someone mentally unstable, yet not seeing the irony in the fact that these grown dudes have no problem sleeping with an ‘alleged mentally unstable person’.

    Declaring someone fainting as a personal flaw.
    Declaring clumsiness to be a sign of being mentally unstable

    and then claiming you are doing so, to remove the shine and for the benefit of other black women.

    Coem on.. even you have to say that is out of order

    Like


  75. Soul,

    Yes that’s what I meant. And furthermore, there was no prominent black actress at the time besides Whoopi. But Halle had the beauty since many don’t consider Whoopi to be beautiful, and therefore Halle came in at the right time. She was young, a breath of fresh air, etc. And she had all the qualities and the package of being labeled the most beautiful.

    Like


  76. @ soul

    It’s cool you have the right to your opinion and I’m not disagreeing with you at all. I think you felt that it was more than an attack on Halle and it seemed like an attack on the same ol attacks that Black women get thrown at all the time.

    Like


  77. @shani…
    And hadn’t everyone been recovering from severe pageboy type cuts at the time (or was that after)
    Halle’s cut was light and fluffy, tomboyish yet girlie.. It was also a hair cut that both white and black women could effect. I do tend to agree with you.. it catapulted her and she took advantage of that (who wouldn’t)

    Like


  78. As important as it is that BW receive positive reinforcement for their self image from their families, it’s also important for EVERYONE ELSE to see ACCURATE, POSITIVE, UPLIFTING images of BW in American media (instead of ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES).

    Like


  79. @dani
    yep I saw it as an attack that gets thrown at black women all the time.. that’s why I was surprised. And one specifically being used this time because it’s an easy target.

    The villifying was horrific. I still can’t believe that anyone would declare fainting spells as ‘crazy’ or clumsiness as evidence of craziness. It’s beyond petty

    Like


  80. Shani Says:
    Halle has held the title for almost two decades. I think that says alot. Usually with white actresses, they choose someone different every few years. For black actresses it has been Halle since she came out in 1991.
    laromana says,
    The fact that ONLY HALLE has been “given” the title for almost two decades is EXACTLY the problem. Hollywood REFUSES to acknowledge the DIVERSITY of Black beauty in the same way it does with White beauty and there’s a LOT WRONG with that mindset. There are OBVIOUSLY MANY OTHER BW that are as beautiful/more beautiful than Halle and they DESERVE to be recognized.

    dani says,
    Not too many Black women have gone that far too in playing non-marginalized roles. You have to give her credit for that.

    laromana says,
    This is another MAJOR PROBLEM with the RACIST/ANTI-BW way Hollywood treats Black actresses. By singling out Halle to play MOST of the non-marginalized roles, OTHER MORE TALENTED Black actresses aren’t given the opportunity to play these roles and gain the potential success that comes from the increased exposure.
    White actresses, on the other hand, have a greater chance of getting more roles (and achieving success) because they aren’t LIMITED to a few STEREOTYPICAL roles like MOST Black actresses are.

    Like


  81. You are absolutely right. It’s as if Hollywood is afraid to acknowledge that beauty is also darker than a brown paper bag. The fact that they don’t acknowledge it speaks volumes that they are afraid of black women being seen as the standard of beauty. Shame. Shame. Shame.

    Also realize, nothing stays the same forever. I truly believe that a darker woman will come along soon and steal the spotlight. I just have that gut feeling……

    Like


  82. You also have to realize that many of the roles Halle gets are because she begs for them. So its not like they were handing her roles. She has even mentioned in interviews how she “harassed” producers and directors to give her the roles, etc. Monsters Ball, and Things We Lost in the Fire and a few others. The reason why she got the role in Monsters Ball was because Angela B turned it down. When it comes to talent Angela is the business, and if Angela said yeah, Halle would not have even gotten an interview.

    One thing you have to give her credit for is that she is proactive and fights for roles. You don’t really hear about other black actresses doing that, not that they don’t. Maybe they do and just don’t vocalize it as much as Halle does.

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  83. Soul,

    I co-sign your comments 54 and 63,
    you took the words out of my mouth.

    I do agree the the short hair made Halle even if she wasn’t the first black woman to have this haircut.

    the same goes with Rihanna

    Like


  84. Nubiabellah,

    You’re right. Also I think the short cut helped in that not many women can pull it off, but she can.

    Like


  85. @Laromona

    co-sign! I do agree that the it’s unfair that Black actresses do not get the same opportunuty to play non-marginalized roles. We have to conform to Black women stereotypes *rollsyes* I mean dang a sista can play a love interest role too!

    @ shani

    I didn’t know that Halle had to be extra proactive in begging for roles. It’s a shame that she does even with an Oscar. Why they gotta do a sista like that! However, I want to see Jurnee Smollet and Kimberly Elise break onto the scene because these women can act! lol You are so right about the short hair do. Not veyr many women can play the look off. Including me lol. I think it shows off her face more with the short hair do.

    @ soul

    It’s all good and you are correct in the hypocrisy of the actions between Black women and White women. Yes there are Black women who will co-sign some foolishness like Chris Brown hitting on Rihanna. Let’s not even go there lol

    Like


  86. Tyra Ebanks over Halle Berry don’t make me laugh. Halle beauty is not only her looks but her inner being. She glows with it and this is the reasons persons will put her up in the ranking.

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  87. i can tell halle had a nose job

    Like


  88. 92 comments! I wonder if Halle Berry has been tipped off to this post…

    Like


  89. Why would you say that LaSmartOne?

    Like


  90. Soul,

    If I was to address something specifically to you, I would say so (like I just did). 🙂

    I don’t think a criticism of Halle is a criticism of all Black women. Doesn’t that go against the “Black women/people are individuals?” argument? I don’t think what people say about HB has anything to do with me, and she’s just as open to criticism as the next person, Black or White.

    This hasn’t happened in the comments (to my knowledge), but I’m surprised no one’s popped up with a “How dare you say HB isn’t pretty?” comment. I think topics like these often turn into “If you don’t think so-and-so is beautiful then you must be racist against Black women” silliness. Every critique on someone Black isn’t representative of some larger anti-Black conspiracy. Everyone has detractors; it happens. I think getting up in arms about every negative comments makes people look, dare I say it, whiny, and misses the point of actual systemic anti-Black bias.

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  91. Hmm this thread took a strange turn for a minute there lol. My biggest gripe is not wanting children to use the media’s messages as a guide to life but really, apart from momentary curiosity, why the hell do we as adults give two sh*ts if Halle has that title? The entertainment industry isn’t about to open the flood gates and show a vast range of black female faces and we already know that so screw the media, enlighten the young’ns.

    Like


  92. I already gave an adequate explanation of my point of spilling the wine on the celebrity subject of this post.

    Since a certain poster took my re-telling of Berry’s off-stage antics personal for some strange reason, I’m going to drop it.

    Some people are very sensitive to the truth. Especially when you reveal the truth (everything I said was fact and it was not told with malicious intent since I could give three damns about Berry or any other actor or actress) about a celebrity idol. Kobe Bryant and Michael Jackson’s accusers got death threats by the ton from the fans of both men!

    Like Gen pointed out, the media is all illusion! STOP TAKING IT SO SERIOUSLY! Halle Berry (or anyone else) means nothing and is no represenation of any “beauty standard” outside of what some media publications and productions decided.

    If one is insecure or dumb enough to use someone as a “standard” of any kind, that is their own misfortune.

    Thank you so much Jasmin, for “getting it.”

    Like


  93. I said that I was going to “drop it” about Berry (and I have) but I will say this to a certain poster:

    Trust me, there’s a WHOLE LOT more insider info I could have revealed about Berry. I only told the “fluffy” stuff.

    If you’ve read correctly, I SAID that I was giving an abbreviated list of the many male co-stars she “acted” with. And there’s way more bizarre episodes involving her on film sets. And much more.

    And did you not read when I complimented Berry on her exterior, saying that I can the appeal she has with a segment of people?

    But all of that is beside the point.

    At the end of the day, Berry is no epitome of any type of beauty. Neither is anyone else.

    Damn, all these comments over this hack of an actress?

    If y’all took all of this interest you have in her and actually went to the theatre to see one of her movies, she could finally have a hit film! LOL.

    Like


  94. You’re right about that. LOL You have the freedom of speech. Say what you want.

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  95. Abagond, when you mention that Halle lacks a thick figure, well she is not stick thin either. She looks healthy and has a curvy body, especially after giving birth.

    You mention that she doesn’t have beautiful eyes. I think she does; they are large doe-like, but what she doesn’t have is that almond, upturned, sexy, cat eye that many black women have particularly in the pics that you have of Angela Basset, Tyra Banks, and Gabrielle Union. I think this is why Halle has a commercial look. Maybe this is why you don’t think her eyes are beautiful? I think they are….just a different type of beautiful.

    Her lips are thin in my opinion, but they sit perfectly on her face meaning they do not add to her beauty nor do they take away from her beauty.

    Gosh, I need to stop. I feel a scientist…..LOL Anyway at the end of the day Halle B is still a pretty lady.

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  96. ^^^
    I don’t think Aba or anyone else was saying that Berry isn’t pretty. Of course, she is.

    He and many others are just pointing out while she is certainly attractive, she is hardly “the most beautiful” or a “measuring stick” of black beauty.

    I added that Berry has many deeply rooted issues and has a history of promocious and questionably sane behavior, which means that not only are her looks NOT all that they are cracked out to be: Her character isn’t either.

    It’s no deeper than that.

    Like


  97. I think Halle has a thin figure but it is very curvaceous to me. She has a nice bone structure in her face. However, do I think she is the epitome of Black beauty? Absolutely not because Black women have a diverse beauty that is just unbelieavable. I resent people who put one kind of Black beauty and write it off as a standard that Black women should live up too. Forget that! I’m done with that crap.

    Like


  98. the way some speak of Halle you would think she is taking food from their mouths. what is it that gets people(not only women) so riled up?
    she could have played the “tragic mulatto”, i’m sure she had the option, she chose not to.
    is it that she will never be seen as Black enough? is it because she gets more praise then she deserves? that’s the nature of hollywood that’s not exclusive to Halle. is it her fault that MSM has annoited her “the”beauty. it seems the criticism should be in the direction of the media not Halle Berry.
    on another note what makes Halle so beautiful is her facial symmetry, people with a high ratio are typically seen as more beautiful. Angela Bassett and Yasmin Warsame share the same high ratio.

    Like


  99. @jasmin…
    thanks for the clarification.
    However it still seems you are misunderstanding where I am coming from.

    This was a thread about why Halle berry is the most beautiful black woman in the world.

    I agree completely, how can she be? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is open to so many interpretations and issues e.t.c.

    My objection is to using her ‘alleged’ sexual history 9which can only be obtained by hearsay’, call her a ‘doorknob’, calling her crazy, insane, kooky, no quite there.. in order to villify her the person and not the pedestal.

    These are the same reasons and excuses most people give when they describe other black women.

    You know fainting spells in white women are seen as delicate, in black women it makes her crazy!

    Even i she has sex with 1000 men.. aren’t these men in turn having sex with her?.

    When people can’t prove a point sufficiently, they always seem to attack the character.
    The personal attack were and are unneccessary, gossipy, silly and petty. unless anyone was present in the bed room it is all rumour.
    and quite frankly irrelevant.

    Halle Berry is simply not the most beautiful black woman in the world for a host of reasons. Her fainting spells, alleged sexual conduct etc have nothing to do with it.

    Like


  100. @just to say..

    exactly?.
    The MSM is making her into something she is not.. instead off railing against that, there are people railing against the woman.

    Ad may add that Gabriel Union, sanaa Lathan & Kenya more have that exact same symmetry of which you speak.
    But don’t worry, in a few years when Hollywood starts touting angela bassett as the most beautiful 50+ year old black actress.

    i’m sure there’d be some ‘brothers’ calling her crazy ! a doorknob!, too muscular, manly, every H-Town brother will claim to have had a turn and basically thats why she had to adopt and couldn;t conceive .. and you know that she couldn’t marry anyone else but courtney B vance because blah blah blah…

    oh and guess what, they’d claim they are saying this all in the aid of other black women, because they are tired of white MSM elevating Angela over other black women.
    And we black women who say gosh why are you doing that are ‘taking it personally’, ‘slaves to the MSM’ ‘YOU ARE TAKING IT TOO SERIOUSLY!’. I’m only doing it for you black woman…. for you!
    lol
    I laugh tire o!

    Like


  101. ^^^

    Soul,

    With all due respect, you have issues. (But who doesn’t?).

    I have no clue why you took so much offense to what I revealed about Halle. I really don’t. Perhaps, you have a similar history as her and it hit a sensitive area with you?

    Berry’s looks, talent and mental stability aren’t all there. That’s not to be denied.

    End of story. Done.

    I’m done with this conversation with you.

    Like


  102. LOL. This is getting heated.

    Like


  103. @mynameismyname…

    Of course!

    @all… didn’t I say it above, if they can say it about one person, they will say it about you.

    You don’t seem to get it?.
    This has nothing to do with Halle’s personal issues. It’s about her beauty.
    Why don’t you tell us all why fainting makes her crazy?
    why don’t you tell us all how being clumsy makes one mentally unstable?.

    Again if she is known as being mentally unstable why are you not castigating the men who are sleeping with her.

    Notice how I am addressing your points. Notice how whenever I have had to say something to you I’ve addressed you.

    Of course, this can’t possibly have to do with the fact that you brought up irrelevant personal unprovable (take your word for it) details about someone who hasn’t done anything to you…

    It must be because I have a similar history..
    bwaaaaahhaaaahaaa lol

    This is EXACTLY why I will never co-sign any of this craptastic type of ‘oh I’m saying it to defend you silly black wimmens’ type of arguement.
    All it takes is for one to pull ask you to defend one of yur indefensible claims and shock horror… you turn the exact same table on them.

    Couldn’t get a turn with the doorknob could ya!
    lol
    jokes.

    Like


  104. @shani…
    oh puhlease… I’m as cool as a cucumber (hold on.. could that be misconstrued as some kind of metaphor for me being crazy..or mentally unstable or even shock horror promiscuous? lol)

    Nah, I just can’t stand it when people demean other women in the most salacious of ways and then have the nerve to say they are doing it in order to uplift other women like me.

    I also abhor it when people label other women (who they have no personal sexual history with) as ‘doorknobs’ based on the say so of other men who might have a grievance seeing as said women has left them behind.

    And to top it all off, anyone who defends the sexual use and abuse of a person who they claim is well known to be mentally unstable (Has halle talked about any mental illness issues?) is disgusting, perverse and sick in the head.

    Now, I’ve got to go catch my train..
    toodles.

    Like


  105. Everybody has their own perceptions of what beauty is. It truly is in the eyes of the beholder. I try to appreciate the diversity and uniqueness of female beauty without making comparisons.

    Like


  106. Soul,

    Can you read?

    Where did I ever say that I revealed what I revealed about Berry to uplift anyone??? LOL. You have issues!

    And I said that there was a lot more I could reveal about Berry but I wouldn’t go there. So, where do you conclude that I said her sudden faint spells and seemingly deliberate self-injury was the ONLY things that make her a little “off”?

    Again, you truly have issues. Just like HB. For me, this site provides me with some food for thought and absorbing the viewpoints of others. For you, perhaps, it gives you a place to voice out your own inner issues.

    I seriously hope you get help. Get a sense of humor, learn how to read better and take a trip off of the computer.

    And since you’re so supportive of HB, buy a ticket to her next film so that she can finally have a hit film! LOL.

    Again, this conversation with you is done!

    Like


  107. One more thing:

    You really got issues, Soul. LOL.

    Who said that these numerous male actors “told everyone” that they had sex with HB? LOL.

    This wasn’t “locker room gossip”. LOL. That you automatically assumed that it was, on their part, reveals something.

    You took such great offense to learning of HB’s nature because it reflects something of your own life experiences.

    Again, you really have issues.

    And of course, this conversation with you is done.

    I feel low even “going back and forth” with you but I don’t like someone throwing their baggage on me for saying something truthful.

    Like


  108. Nubian Queen Says (comment #59):

    “Abagond how could you forget about Kenya Moore? I think she is Wayyyyy more attractive than Halle Berry.”

    I agree, but I stuck to women who I think anyone would know. Kenya Moore is not as famous – but still very beautiful!

    Like


  109. mynameismyname, I see you.:)

    Like


  110. JJ said (comment #68):

    “I do think that Halle is considered so beautiful because people know that she is half white but I do not think it is because she looks white. Halle Berry looks nothing like a white woman to me. Her features are very similar to Sanaa’s and Gabrielle’s.”

    Good point. Before I knew her mother was white I did not think of Halle as half white nor did she seem that way to me. She seemed like Sanaa does to me now – just black.

    Do white people see the white in her? Or does she look like a plain black woman to them? Or does knowing she is half white make them more comfortable with her (like with Obama)? How to tell?

    Like


  111. Jennifer Aniston: I never got what people – or Brad Pitt – see in her. She is a middling actress and not even pretty. Maybe it is because I never watched “Friends”. When I wrote this post I did think about her because she seemed to be hyped way beyond her merits too.

    Beyonce’s diction: it is, in fact, shockingly bad for someone who is in the public eye.

    Like


  112. Shani said (comment #100):

    “You mention that she doesn’t have beautiful eyes. I think she does; they are large doe-like, but what she doesn’t have is that almond, upturned, sexy, cat eye that many black women have particularly in the pics that you have of Angela Basset, Tyra Banks, and Gabrielle Union. I think this is why Halle has a commercial look. Maybe this is why you don’t think her eyes are beautiful? I think they are….just a different type of beautiful.”

    I think Halle Berry’s eyes are beautiful, in and of themselves, doe-like and all, but the eyes of some other women, like the ones you named, are way more beautiful. They are not just more pleasing to look at or “what I prefer”, they affect me physically. It is like they send electricity through my body or something.

    I wrote this post partly because you asked on another thread:

    “Would you please explain specifically why you don’t consider Halle Berry top 10 material?”

    So that is why I broke it down like I did.

    Like


  113. Jasmin said in comment #71:

    “If people can’t give their opinions, not only blogging, but also conversation, must cease to exist. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with disagreeing with someone, but chastising them for saying what they said because “It’s mean!” is basically derailment because that argument just runs in circles every time. Everybody has something negative to say about someone/something else.”

    I agree.

    Halle Berry is a public figure. She is not beyond criticism.

    Myname did seem to be getting off topic, but he was able to relate it to the subject of the post.

    Like


  114. @ Soul:

    Much worse than anything Myname is saying is this: Halle Berry played the lead in “Monster’s Ball”. Angela Bassett was offered the part but did not take it because she did not like how it stereotyped black women.

    Like


  115. @abagond..
    So what?.
    Because Halle took the role she is now persona non grata?.

    I suppose Angela Bassett in ‘meet the Browns’ wasn’t portraying a stereotypical blackwoman from the hood, with 3 kids by 3 different fathers. Isn’t that a stereotype?

    Maybe puffy shouldn’t have played the role of the stereotypical jail bird fatehr who couldn’t be there,
    What about Terence Howard in Hustle & Flow..wasn’t his role stereotypical or better yet, Wesley Snipes in Jungle Fever?.

    How many black men are playing the stereotypical role of stud, jail bird, gangsta?.

    Maybe she needed money, maybe she needed to work who knows.. I bet she wasn’t the only actress vying for the role.

    But then again that’s not the real issue is it?

    I mean the real issue here is it?

    Like


  116. if actors and actressess only played roles that uplifted their marginalized group, there would be no work for them. who is to say what is uplifting or not.
    that point brings us to the truth, actors of colour need more opportunity to portray a range of characters.
    look at Monique, she has made her name by playing MSM stereotpyes of Black women, she was given the opportunity in the movie Precious to “really act”, and she knocked it out the park. she always had the talent, but never the opportunity to show and prove.

    Like


  117. Soul,

    This is the last and final time I will address you on this matter.

    You are not on my level. To go “tit for tat” for you would be futile.

    For you to question my credentials because you can’t handle the truth about a waning actress who you obviously have some type of attachement to is both ignorant and hilarious.

    I have nothing to prove to you. It’s known that I am amongst the background of the entertainment industry. I was born into it, to be honest. It’s no big secret around here. I will not disclose my personal information on the internet because that’s wrong to do. But the industry I work behind the scenes in and the info I know about both it and it’s players is fair game.

    Judging by your emotional responses, the knowledge of this woman’s behavior really resonates with you. Like I said, you obviously have HEAVY issues. Issues that Abagond’s blog won’t help resolve. Whatever your methods are, I really hope you cope with whatever inner demons you’re dealing with. Seriously. I don’t want you end up like Halle.

    Halle slept around with tons of men (including the white dentist who paid for her nose job before “became big”). She’s known for batty behavior that exceeds the sudden faint spells and constant self-injury (anyone remember the multiple car crashes she was at the helm of?- one in where an elderly woman was killed?). She’s known for being a tad mentally unstable.

    This is all old news.

    So why in the hell does it bother you so much when someone brings it up?

    How can you prove that it’s NOT true? Answer that!

    Finally, I’m done with you. I apologize to Abagond and the many sane, intelligent, mature posters for even entertaining “Soul”.

    I’m sorry and I’m done. Thanks.

    Like


  118. Wow this is the truth! I’ve been wondering for years about this myself. Halle Berry is average, there is nothing exotic about her or different. All those Brazilian women that you showed on a previous post blow her out of the water. They were all beautiful. If she would go to the Caribbean or Brazil she would not stand a chance.

    Please do a post on Black Latinas!

    Like


  119. I never knew about an accident where an elderly woman was killed. Was it a cover up or something because it didn’t make news? Everyone knows about the one where an Indian woman was hurt which was in the news. OH MY!

    Like


  120. @shani…

    Did a google & ENPS search absolutely nothing.

    I guess there’s this great conspiracy by the MSM, all the gossip rags and blogs, all the men who she slept with Halle Berry, international journalists as well as the police and all other opportunists itching to sell a celebrity story… to hide this piece of news from the public.
    (you know keep it under wraps because they think Halle Berry is God! and they worship her and seem emotionally bonded )

    or maybe they all have the same issues as Halle Berry so they don’t want to tell anyone.

    Or maybe it didn’t happen at all. And someone is just telling porkies in order to make a point and to seem like they are in the ‘know’ about someoine else’s life. You know the person they don’t care about.

    Like


  121. mynameismyname,

    No apology needed to me. I know how it is, brutha.lol

    It’s interesting to hear your perspective because a lot of people are curious as to why she’s had such a hard time with men. Because she seems to have everything going for her. And I always wondered how could someone who has a seemingly charmed life, be so unhappy.

    I agree with Miss Carribean, there are some beautiful brazilian and Carribean women who are absolutely gorgeous. I do think Halle is too, but not to the extent that she’s portrayed. Like I said, it was the “Halle Berry” cut that put her on the map.

    Like


  122. Shani,

    Everything doesn’t make the news.

    For instance, several fires and murders that have happened in the vicinity of where I used to live. The press never reported it.

    But the car accident that involved the elderly women happened around the late 1990s. If I can remember right, there was another erratic car accident that involved her that DID make the news. That may be the one you’re referring to that involved an Indian woman.

    (P.S.: Brandy’s whole ordeal with her car drama isn’t new for her either.)

    You can look up the whole ordeal that HB had with the white Illinois dentist that she paid for her nose job. Strangely enough, Jet magazine actually reported on how he tried to sue her years later! LOL.

    You shouldn’t always believe what you hear but all this stuff about Berry is old news. And you couldn’t make this up. Who would want to, you know?

    Miss Caribbean,

    I get what you’re saying but I don’t think one has to be “exotic” to be beautiful. You can look familiar and be stunning. Who doesn’t love a classic beauty?

    Like


  123. I deleted some comments by Myname and Soul in which they called each other names.

    Like


  124. I am with Island Girl: Halle makes MORE sense given what Myname said. Also, I have never known him to make up stuff. In my experience he does not write something unless he is sure of it.

    Like


  125. I agree Abagond. I don’t see why myname would make up anything. Its not like it would change anything, so maybe he has a point. But I am not surprised by any of the comments written about her except the car accident in which an old lady died. That must have torn her to pieces, especially since it was an accident. It must be tough living with that. I have to admit that I have sympathy for her in this case.

    Like


  126. Thank you, Abagond.

    You know that I am no Berry fanatic or hater, so I gain nothing from making up anything about her, be it flattering or unflattering.

    I was wondering if you were going to delete the comments where I lost control and let Soul’s ignorance lead me to call her some not-nice names.

    I’m very sorry, Aba and all of the other posters who have sense.

    I honestly feel that I let you guys down.

    Next time I provide some insider info, I will take more precaution. Since there are some who react violently when you disclose certain information about someone they may admire.

    Again, Aba, I truly apologize for that dispute with that poster.

    Like


  127. I also symphathize with Berry about the car accident where a life was taken. Even though it was an accident, that would destroy anyone who lived to tell. In the case of HB, it worsened her already fragile mind state.

    That is why it’s so important to practice safety on the road. I see too many reckless drivers on the road. You are truly playing Russian roulette with your life when you are not alert and don’t take proper caution on the road.

    Like


  128. You are right. I drive like an old lady I am so paranoid. Sometimes people even bump the horn at me, but I don’t care because I don’t want anyone to hurt me neither do I want to hurt some one else. I am not being funny but maybe she should get a chauffer.

    Like


  129. Dani did warn us way back in comment #2 that talking about Halle Berry was playing with fire:

    “You are to get jumped on for this Abagond be prepared. Same for what you said about Beyonce lol”

    Like


  130. on Sat Nov 28th 2009 at 08:33:01 Menelik Charles

    Soul said:

    I just can’t stand it when people demean other women in the most salacious of ways and then have the nerve to say they are doing it in order to uplift other women like me.

    Menelik says:

    I have to agree with you sista friend! This post was absolutely NOT about halle berry’s character but her representation, in one form or another, as a ‘Black’ beauty.

    It doesn’t take a therapist to work out that some of the sistas’ on here have issues with skin colour and their own lurking sense of self-loathing.

    It’s a real shame considering that one or two of them are really quite stunning. Still, like I said above, I’m working towards correcting matter in a book on racial envy and the psychological oppression of dark-skinned Black women.

    In this book I show overwhelming proof that bi-racial sistas’ are used as a psychic buffer by white society so as to conceal an underlying (one might say, natural) attraction for dark-skinned Black women.

    Like I say, I have the evidence over 20 years!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  131. It’s no secret that biracial women are placed on a higher pedestal than monoracial black women.

    I just had a conversation with someone who knew the “greatest entertainer of all time”. This entertainer had a girlfriend who is biracial. I saw a picture in which I thought was the girlfriend. I commented that I was happy to see this entertainer with a normal pretty black woman because I felt that I could relate to that. He told me that he’s never known him to be with a “regular black woman”. Like that was an insult.

    Well, jeez thanks. Menelik, it does seem as though full black women are at times one step below. We are not as valued as others.

    And I think that is what some feel about Halle. Other black actresses, regardless of talent, have not been able to break through.

    It’s not Halle’s fault, it’s just the way it is.

    Like


  132. Monoracial (b/k/a everyday) black woman are beautiful and very valued!

    You are but one example of their beauty, Islandgirl!

    “Biracial” (which means black/white, I guess?) women often have the same issues with self-loathing and the feeling of being undervalued as any other black woman. Don’t believe the hype.

    If a man is only with a woman because she’s “exotic” or in this entertainer’s case, “not regular black”, that is a loss for both of them. No one is winning in that situation.

    Halle is hardly the most successful black woman in Hollywood. But she’s among the most hyped by the mainstream media for her looks (solely). There are still plenty of gorgeous and talented black women in the business who get loads of “play” even if they don’t get Halle/Beyonce’s manufactured pop-media hype.

    Like


  133. on Sat Nov 28th 2009 at 11:02:12 Menelik Charles

    What is an ad hominem argument?

    An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument… by ATTACKING…a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or PRODUCING EVIDENCE against the claim.

    mynameismyname said:

    @ Soul,

    Judging by your emotional responses, the knowledge of Halle Bery’s behavior really resonates with you…You obviously have HEAVY issues…that Abagond’s blog won’t help resolve.

    …I really hope you cope with whatever inner demons you’re dealing with. Seriously. I don’t want you end up like Halle.

    Menelik replies:

    It’s patently obvious that mynameismyname could not counter the argument by sista Soul and so instead resorted to an ad hominem argument i.e. to attack the person just as she has been attacking halle Berry for all manner of reasons unrelated to the topic’s title!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  134. on Sat Nov 28th 2009 at 11:09:58 Menelik Charles

    Soul said:

    mynameismyname…what you’re spouting here is some of the most obnoxious, ridiculous, ‘has nothing to do with the topic’ crap I have ever heard.

    Menelik replies:

    and this is the absolute truth! The topic’s title is:

    “Halle Berry is not the most beautiful Black women in the world”!

    mynameismyname had gone way off topic. Fact. Try and accept that you were wrong to do so given that halle’s sex life and alleeged mental health issues are NOT part of her aesthetic beauty!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ps Soul, I guess you are from the UK from how you phrase certion things. Right?

    Like


  135. ^^^
    Okay, that’s over and done with. Soul never had any real argument to begin with. She didn’t like what I revealed about the celebrity subject and went on the attack. I told her that she needs to resolve the issues she displays herself as having.

    It’s over and done with. Stop trying to instigate. We’re all adults here. Move on. Good look on your book.

    Like


  136. @menelik..

    Watch out now, you are going to be accused of being mentally unstable, having a halle berry fetish, promiscuous, having ISSUES! heavy issues, crazy, clumsy, having heavy demons, Insane!!. lol. Look read through, I’m too busy laughing to get through the entire list of insults..
    I mean a grown up is actually on here saying things that don’t make any darn sense.

    1) A person is crazy, can’t you tell she has fainting spells!
    2) She is clumsy thus it helps to prove how mentally unstable she is
    3) A whole lot of men are falling in line to sleep with an alleged ‘mentally unstable’ woman and its her fault! that Jezebel. She damn near forced them, stalked them to copulate with her

    and…
    finally to prove that this woman is the most God awful human being in the world

    4) She is a murderer! O_O

    and the proof His word! as an ‘industry insider’

    I wonder what else he is going to make up, maybe Halle Berry is actually the grinch! the ghost of christmas past, Azazel or Eshu in disguise, or maybe even the terminator?. (I mean why stick to reality when this dude is obviously just pulling things out of thin air)

    At first I said it was ridiculous and obnoxious, but this.. this right here is just pure delusion.
    Every time his points are nullified he pulls something else out from thin air that only he knows.

    But, I think that should be sorted now as I have pre-empted him and made a cosy little list for him to draw from to properly suit his delusional fantasies.

    Dude has the nerve to say I have issues bwaaaahaaa haaa haaa.

    Like


  137. on Sat Nov 28th 2009 at 14:03:41 Menelik Charles

    mynameismyname said:

    Soul never had any real arguement to begin with.

    Menelik replies:

    and you went waaaay off topic to BEGIN with and started disparging Halle Berry’s character…thus providing the justifiable basis for opposition to such an extra-ordinary, and mean-spirited, diversion from the topic at hand.

    I guess we can let it go now if we are truly as adult as we claim.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ps Soul, are you from the UK by any chance?

    Like


  138. Menelik, your book sounds like it will be quite interesting, and it sounds like it will make sense. It’s no secret that the media seems to purposely exclude beautiful, dark women from being shown too often, but they don’t mind showing her if she is plain looking or unsexy.

    Like


  139. What I’m still not getting is why some people (in general)get their self-esteem issues from TV. I try to empathize with people who say they feel devalued because of their skin color, but that’s honestly never been my experience. I’m sure there are plenty of Black women like me who can get pretty much any man they want, and it’s not even like I’m the finest thing that ever lived. Are there really that many Black men who feel like they can’t get a man because of their looks, or is it just that those who do feel that way are very vocal and tend to converge in the same place?

    *I hope this isn’t too off-topic; the issue of Halle Berry’s beauty seemed to spur a discussion on what’s attractive and what’s not, and I’m always left scratching my head because I can’t relate to the experiences of some.

    Like


  140. Same here. I could never understand why Halle Berry was considered the most beautiful black woman. I think Gabriel Union is:)
    Same with Beyonce. The other two members of Destiny’s Child are much, much prettier than her.

    Like


  141. Jasmin,

    The internet gives people who have certain issues an anonymous platform to express them. The women who tend to post here are the ones who have issues with their racial appearance and self esteem. So, it gives a slanted perspective. If one doesn’t know many black women, they may think a lot of the female posters on here speak for all.

    Most of the black women I know in real life are like you. They never have a problem getting a man. Most of the black people I know also don’t get their ideas of what is beautiful from television. But as evidenced by many of the posters on this blog, there are people who actually DO.

    Your own self-esteem issues can hold you back. Ask Halle.

    If you think low of yourself, how can you except anyone else NOT to?

    Like


  142. Jasmin, post #92 on the “White Club” entry is a good example of I was talking about in the first paragraph of the post above.

    Like


  143. I wonder how many people would guess she was “just” Black if they didn’t know her background?>>>

    Before Halle’s nose job, she looked like a neighbor of mine. I don’t judge her for it, apparently it’s a standard practice across races to “break in” the industry. Has anyone seen the pics of CBS’s Julie Chen from the 90’s??? MY GOODNESS! Talk about de-racialization!

    Like


  144. A lot of these posts are nonsense (no offense to anyone in particular). The problem for me is not that Halle is a representation of Black beauty. The problem is that the Halle/Beyonce types are the ONLY representation of Black beauty. And NOT just within White media, but within Black media as well. They are both beautiful women, and it seems like Black and Black-biracial women have to be FAR MORE STUNNING than your average White actress to be recognized as being equal. Nonetheless, we have a long way to go before we get there. And I do believe that these conversations will open those doors.

    Like


  145. on Sat Nov 28th 2009 at 22:34:02 Patricia Kayden

    mynameismyname really ought to calm down with the degrading and unsubstantiated comments about Halle. We can speak about Halle not being the most beautiful Black woman in history, without slandering her as an individual.

    Abagond, while I generally love your website, I was a bit shocked to see you support mynameismyname’s rambling posts. What proof do we have that mynameismyname’s claims about Halle are anywhere close to the truth?

    I could just as easily say that mynameismyname is also a slut, uneducated, crazy, etc. It’s very easy to make crazy comments about people – we all can play that game. Please have your posters stick to the point of your article so that we avoid round about discussions that are not helpful or provable (did I just make up a word?).

    Like


  146. Jasmin,

    I do agree with you in the regard of not being able to relate to posters who are devalued personally. And I can see why you’ve never had a problem.

    But, I have heard several blanketed statements about black women as a whole as not being good enough. That is what really irritates me. They take the worst image of a black woman in their minds and apply it to all black women.

    Then they make statements like the one I mentioned above.

    But that is not ALL black women’s experience, personally.

    Like


  147. Truly, this is the very last time I will address previous comments that I made about HB’s off-stage antics.

    For HB’s rabid fans (who don’t seem to support her usually financially-unsuccesful films) who want to go into denial about the “old news” I revealed about HB or attack me personally because you don’t like the truth about your beloved celebrity:

    Just leave it alone. It is what it is. This post’s aim was to debunk the myth that Berry is the most beautiful black woman, aesthically AND in terms of character. It’s no deeper that that.

    If certain comments offend you, refrain from reading them. And again, since some of you are in denial about Berry’s exploits past or present: Prove that they are not true. Seriously. Prove that me and all of the other industry folk just made it all up to smear Berry’s name because we care about her waning career so much. Tell it to the dentist she slept with who paid for her nose job and sued her years later. Tell it to the family of the elderly woman whose life who taken. Tell it to those who were around on various film sets and witnessed her loony behavior (which included sucide attempts like on the set of “Queen”). Call them liars to their face. Or just come off it.

    I’m not going back and forth with some of her blind fanatics anymore. I already apologized to Aba and to the other posters for letting one of them bring out a nasty side out of me. And it’s not going to happen again.

    Like


  148. @Jasmin….

    I don’t understand either, but then.. I don’t own a TV. And I think the entire gamut of black is beautiful. I also come from a place where ‘light skin’ does not equal white ancestry.

    I feel fine in my skin. I love it. I have no understanding of people who do not love the skin they are born in. If their is one thing I ‘borrow’ from the bible folk it is the saying : ‘god don’t make ugly’.

    At the present time, I don’t think there are any ugly people just people with ugly souls.

    Like


  149. Thanks mynameismyname, I forgot to say that before.

    I’m not a Halle fan nor dislike her. I’m pretty neutral about her. It’s just good to get the whole story about a person before you place them upon a pedestal.

    This is an interview with Christopher Williams. It clarified some things for me.

    http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/story/wesley-snipes-named-as-halle-berry-abuser

    Like


  150. @Jasmin….
    I missed out something you said when you asked how people can let the media control their self esteem.

    I think a lot of the time it could be based on peer pressure.
    I have said over and over again on various threads on this blog, that black women are the most wanted women on earth.

    Some people want us but can’t admit it that’s why it drives them crazy and they lash out.

    Other women go to extreme lengths to acquire what many of us naturally possess and still they can’t quite get it.
    Even the ones who scream they don’t want us, can’t seem to quite leave us be, and let us go on our merry way.

    I’ve said it numerous times and I’ll say it again. Black women are the most desired women on this earth. And everytime I come across a woman who doesn’t know her worth, I sigh.

    Like


  151. As beautiful as Halle Berry is in her own right, I find her overrated imho. I do agree there are more beautiful BW than Ms. Berry.

    Like


  152. Islandgirl,

    Thank you. I’m also neutral about the woman. She’s not the most interesting NOR the most successful black female celebrity so who would want to “dirty” her name for the hell of it?

    I could see someone wanting to lie about Oprah or Michelle Obama, “sisters” with true clout, but HB??? In all respect, who in the hell is she to be putting on a pedestal, lieing about or getting worked up over? LOL.

    It’s funny, the reaction to what I revealed about HB is similar to the reaction I got from SOME people when I used to tell people that R. Kelly had a predilection for young girls. Or that Michael Jackson was heavily drugged. Or that Michael Jordan was a mean-spirited, egotistical weedhead who chased around white women all day. Or that Tiger Woods was pretty much the same as Jordan, minus the weed and that his white blonde wife kept tabs on him so much because he would reguarly cheat on her with even whiter and blonder (and younger) white women.

    Like some of the posters on this board, people got mad at me! They cussed me out. Called me a liar. Told me that I no right to reveal such things about such celebrated figures. (All of whom except Woods, I happen to be a fan of BTW)

    And WHAT IN THE HELL WOULD EVENTUALLY CAME OUT ABOUT ALL FOUR OF THESE MEN?!

    It was all true from jump. It wasn’t malicious. It wasn’t an attack on black men. It wasn’t “vilification” or “deintergration”.

    It was the TRUTH.

    If you don’t like it, refrain from it.

    Like


  153. I personally want to thank Soul for “putting us all in check” for the way this post was turning into a lynch and slander mob against Halle Berry. She really gave me the opportunity to sit back and take a look at myself because I was feeding into (and even enjoying) the gossip and malicious comments made about this lady.

    I have been in situations where people gossip and lie about you based on your appearance and their jealously and envy. It is should be a crime the way some black women treat one another because of colurism and hair texture. It is not a pleasant place to be and it is understandable why Halle may have some issues. There may be other things in her life that have had a negative impact on her personality and the choices she has made also. I too know how damaging it is to be in bad relationships with men.

    Mynameis may have some insider information, but I do believe this may be a man who is a little intimidated by a strong woman that made choices and mistakes just like everyone else, but still managed to overcome a lot and be successful. Have you heard how some black men put down Oprah Winfrey? I believe it is because of her strength and her independence and not because her personality.

    Again, thank you Soul. At times we try to inflict pain and isolation on others and forget what we have gone through ourselves.

    Like


  154. @G-ball.
    you are welcome 🙂

    I said in my very 1st post on this:

    Seriously, how many times do we have to drill it into our heads that people say the darnest things when they can’t get their way, own or possess you. The things people say about that woman.. they will turn around and say it about you.

    Perfect example right here.
    I called his arguement ridiculous, he turned around and called me insane!, promiscuous and mentally unstable, repeatedly.

    Sound familiar?

    Anyone who disagreed, was simply a Halle stan. and he kept repeating this to himself over and over again until he believed it. No evidence, no proof, no knowledge, no asking, just occured in his head and BAM! it became a fact!

    I don’t need to inflict pain on others to tell them that they just don’t do it for me.
    I don’t need to vilify them and I don’t need to make things up either. I’m sill laughing at the Halle Berry is a murderer claim. o-0.

    Like


  155. @G-ball
    Yep, I’ve heard some black men go off on Oprah and if they think me pointing out the ridiculousness of this is anything then they haven’t seen me defend Oprah.

    Because when it comes to Oprah, I am actually a fan.
    I know how to chose people I look up to, and no amount of someone trying to tell me what or who I am, will make me accept it.

    Like


  156. Final message to Soul:

    Until you can prove that me, the many industry folks, the family of the slain elderly woman, the many men she slept with including the white Illinois dentist (and Christopher Williams) and witnesses of her behavior are making everything up about this woman because of some kind of weird conspiracy to “vilify her” (lol) her….

    This conversation is permantely dismantled.

    Like


  157. Shani Says:
    Menelik, your book sounds like it will be quite interesting, and it sounds like it will make sense. It’s no secret that the media seems to purposely exclude beautiful, dark women from being shown too often, but they don’t mind showing her if she is plain looking or unsexy.

    tragicmulattos Says:
    A lot of these posts are nonsense (no offense to anyone in particular). The problem for me is not that Halle is a representation of Black beauty. The problem is that the Halle/Beyonce types are the ONLY representation of Black beauty. And NOT just within White media, but within Black media as well. They are both beautiful women, and it seems like Black and Black-biracial women have to be FAR MORE STUNNING than your average White actress to be recognized as being equal.

    laromana says,
    Shani & tragicmulattos,
    I strongly agree with your comments regarding how the White media world treats Black beauty, BW, and Black actresses.
    Although I don’t personally have self esteem issues or look to the White media to tell me how to view BW, I STRONGLY REJECT/HATE the ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES they push down EVERYONE ELSE’S throats (especially when MANY CHOOSE to believe the ANTI-BW LIES).

    Like


  158. I just deleted some more comments by Soul and Myname.

    Until further notice I am enforcing a moratorium:

    1. I will delete any comments on this thread by or about either Soul or Mynameismyname.

    2. If they continue their argument through sock puppets or elsewhere on this blog, I will delete those comments too.

    They have sunk this thread into a tedious back-and-forth ad hominem, each one doubting the motives of the other while defending their own. I doubt that Soul has “issues” or that Myname is lying. In any case, it does not matter because what matters is WHAT you say not WHY you say it. Motives are unknowable and can only be guessed at. Questioning them amounts to an ad hominem attack that adds nothing to the thread.

    They are both more than welcome to continue commenting on other posts, just not this one for now and not about each other.

    If they feel I am being unfair, they can appeal to me in private by email.

    Like


  159. Sock puppet.. I knew it.

    The bottom line is that Hollywood is convinced that there can only be one black leading lady at a time. It’s fine that she has that title, but I think the entertainment industry should be more diversified with black women.

    Have you noticed the same doesn’t apply with black men? There has been everyone from Tyrese, to Denzel, to Terrance Howard. All different spectrums and types.

    Like


  160. You’re right Laromana. It’s as if the media is afraid that the masses will find darker skinned black women sexy and beautiful.

    Like


  161. island girl, I don’t know if this will make sense but I think that has to do with the eurocentric standard of beauty. White supremacy depends upon the eurocentric standard of beauty and the best way to get that across is through the media. So if white women and women who look white are the ones constantly put on a pedestal then they will be seen as superior which in turn the same men of that race will be seen as superior also.

    This is why it is easier for the media to showcase different types of black men without showing the different types of black women because the standard of beauty of any culture is about the women not the men.

    Like


  162. island girl said:

    Sock puppet.. I knew it.

    The bottom line is that Hollywood is convinced that there can only be one black leading lady at a time. It’s fine that she has that title, but I think the entertainment industry should be more diversified with black women.

    Have you noticed the same doesn’t apply with black men? There has been everyone from Tyrese, to Denzel, to Terrance Howard. All different spectrums and types.

    Girl you know colorism does not apply to Black men like it does with Black women lol. That is for the reasons that Shani said. It has to do with our society valuing Eurocentric beauty and any one closer to it. I notice that Hollywood prizes light skin Latinas over dark skin latina women. Dark skin latina women usually play stereotypical Black women roles or are casted as a Black female character. Where as Light skin latinas can play “neutral” characters like Eva Mendes and Eva Longoria. I noticed that Bi-racial White/East Asian women are valued as more pretty than someone who came from two Asian parents. Please! Hollywood loves to play racial politics and the women suffer the most under it. I counted how many Black women played lead roles in mainstream films and it was very little. Black people REALLY need to step it up and supporting Black actors/actresses and not only that Black women’s beauty instead of setting standards of who is more worthy of acceptance because the White media gave it to it us. We put Halle and Beyonce has the standard of beauty in our own community and that is faulty because Black women’s beauty is diverse. That’s why I said that Halle’s post are not going to go off too well with some people especially if they don’t think she the best thing since slice bread. The reason is because she is set as a standard in the mainstream media and in the Black media. If we diversify out images we would have less people arguing about it. This goes for Tyler Perry films as well. People go off on you really hard when you talk about his films. It’s sad that it has to go this way because he is set as a standard for Black films because the mainstream media likes him. It should not be this way because Black people are diverse!

    Like


  163. Also I want to make an announcement to my fellow Black people to stop putting Gabrielle Union as the posterchild for “Pretty Dark skin women” there are plenty of a dark skin women that are attractive. If we accept her color as dark skin than it supports my theory that there is hierachy of acceptance of dark skin women being labeled as pretty. When are the dark skin women with bluish/violet undertones are going to make the list? thank you.

    Like


  164. That’s right, and that’s why the black community should set their own standards and stop eating up what the media is feeding us.

    Like


  165. dani says,
    It has to do with our society valuing Eurocentric beauty and any one closer to it. I notice that Hollywood prizes light skin Latinas over dark skin latina women. Dark skin latina women usually play stereotypical Black women roles or are casted as a Black female character. Where as Light skin latinas can play “neutral” characters like Eva Mendes and Eva Longoria. I noticed that Bi-racial White/East Asian women are valued as more pretty than someone who came from two Asian parents. Please! Hollywood loves to play racial politics and the women suffer the most under it.

    laromana says,
    dani,
    What an excellent, on point observation about how Hollywood plays racial politics with BW/dark skinned WOC vs. WW/lightskinned WOC.

    It’s DISGUSTING/DESPICABLE that ONLY BW/dark skinned WOC (and NOT BM/dark skinned men) are subjected to this GARBAGE in Hollywood.

    Like


  166. on Sun Nov 29th 2009 at 22:15:30 Menelik Charles

    Shani said:

    Menelik…the media seems to purposely exclude beautiful, dark women from being shown too often, but they don’t mind showing her if she is plain looking or unsexy.

    Menelik replies:

    what you say is also what I address in my book. The function of both the dowdy, dark-skinned Black and the Bi-racial actress’ is to publically deny the allure of the typical dark-brown Black woman and thereby keep in check white men’s sexual longing and white women’s envy of the kind of sista Abagond appreciates.

    Thing is, Black women are sooo emphatically female, and so gracious in their movements, that for a typical white man to deny the inherent advantages Black women have over white women physically and aesthetically is tantamount to denying their heterosexuality!

    Funny, this NEVER happend during slavery and the decades that followed lol

    Still, it’s better (for them!) that they locate and appreciate Black beauty in the butt of J-Lo, in the lips of Angelina Jolie and in the swarthy skins of white female tanorexics on the beaches of California than
    than to aknowledge that all these characteristics are typical of just ONE race of females!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  167. Shani and Dani,

    I completely agree with everything that you said. I didn’t think of it in that way. The beauty standard is vastly greater for women than men (although I think that is shifting a bit). So colorism doesn’t apply to men as much because their value is not in their beauty but in power and talent and braun. And since we do live under a eurocentric standard of beauty, colorism is prevelant.

    So, that makes sense.

    Also, I think that lighter skin is more feminized. The lighter that you are, the more feminine you “appear”. Back again to the eurocentric standard and the history of our country. Not to complain but I would like to see a variety. It’s the spice of life.:)

    Dani, Gabby is the “protype” for darker women. I do think she is beautiful, though. But I can’t think of another that is prominent.

    Like


  168. on Sun Nov 29th 2009 at 22:31:02 Patricia Kayden

    I wonder if we will ever see the day when someone like Gabourey “Gabby” Sidibe will be seen as a beautiful Black woman. That would be a breakthrough, but ironically, I’ve seen Black female bloggers denounce her “black blue dark complexion”.

    Beauty truly is in the eyes of the beholder, so I don’t think there will ever be a concensus on the most beautiful Black actress.

    Like


  169. on Mon Nov 30th 2009 at 00:00:03 Menelik Charles

    Dani said:

    Girl you know colorism does not apply to Black men like it does with Black women lol…I notice that Hollywood prizes light skin Latinas over dark skin latina women. Dark skin latina women usually play stereotypical Black women roles or are casted as a Black female character.

    Where as Light skin latinas can play “neutral” characters like Eva Mendes and Eva Longoria. I noticed that Bi-racial White/East Asian women are valued as more pretty than someone who came from two Asian parents. Please! Hollywood loves to play racial politics and the women suffer the most under it.

    Menelik replies:

    the cornerstone of white supremacy IS the white female so any female, ‘Black’, Latino or Asian has to symbolically represent white women.

    This is ANOTHER reason why Black male movie stars are ‘allowed’ to be ‘Black’ but NOT the women.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  170. I agree. She’s pretty but Saana is my pick for “most beautiful”.

    Like


  171. Menelik replies:
    the cornerstone of white supremacy IS the white female so any female, ‘Black’, Latino or Asian has to symbolically represent white women.

    This is ANOTHER reason why Black male movie stars are ‘allowed’ to be ‘Black’ but NOT the women.

    laromana says,
    This is at the CORE of the White supremacist ANTI-BW RACIST/HATE in American culture.

    Like


  172. islandgirl said:

    Shani and Dani,

    I completely agree with everything that you said. I didn’t think of it in that way. The beauty standard is vastly greater for women than men (although I think that is shifting a bit). So colorism doesn’t apply to men as much because their value is not in their beauty but in power and talent and braun. And since we do live under a eurocentric standard of beauty, colorism is prevelant.

    Exactly! I liked how you assert femininity to colorism. I believe that is one of the issues of colorism as well. Dark skin=masculine while light skin=feminine. Please lets not get on how features intersect with that as well lol. As far as Gabby, she is on a darker hue, however, her skin complexion tends to be the acceptable dark skin that is attractive. What about the dark skin women with bluish/violet undertones? They rarely make maintstream and Black media’s list as beautiful.

    Like


  173. on Mon Nov 30th 2009 at 01:50:08 Menelik Charles

    Dani, dearest, you are gorgeous!

    Like


  174. Frankly no one is the most beautiful simply because beauty is subjective even though experts try to make it scientific.

    Like


  175. I deleted comments by Menelik Charles and Lil’vina. They brought up Soul and Mynameismyname. We are not going to talk about them for now on this thread as part of the moratorium (see #166).

    Like


  176. Menelik Charles said:

    “Thing is, Black women are sooo emphatically female, and so gracious in their movements, that for a typical white man to deny the inherent advantages Black women have over white women physically and aesthetically is tantamount to denying their heterosexuality!”

    Wow! I feel that way about black women too.

    Like


  177. on Wed Dec 2nd 2009 at 21:50:07 Menelik Charles

    @ Abagond,

    Yep, and another thing: look closely at your typical Black woman and you see most clearly within them the foxy, feminine features of, say, a typical Philipino female; the haughty demeanour of the European gentry but all wrapped up in the glorious physicality of women of African descent.

    The same cannot be said, of course, about Halle Berry.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ps Aba, let me know when, if ever, you visit England. I figure we could do some work to correct the ongoing assaults on the Black female.

    Like


  178. Menelik,

    You must let us know when your book comes out! I’ll be first in line in London 🙂

    Like


  179. on Wed Dec 2nd 2009 at 22:48:47 Menelik Charles

    Merri,

    well, you’ll have to be in the US as my publisher is African-American so it will be released their first lol

    Anyway, the sooner it is released white men can maybe learn to treat Black women as a preffered choice instead of a dirty little secret with an exotic allure.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  180. on Wed Dec 2nd 2009 at 23:30:59 Patricia Kayden

    Menelik,

    Interesting, but from reading your posts on other websites (such as Siddity), I got the distinct impression that you were against Black women dating/marrying out.

    You present a very different version of yourself here.

    Like


  181. Thank you Menelik for he compliment 🙂

    Like


  182. on Thu Dec 3rd 2009 at 00:18:38 Menelik Charles

    Patricia Kaydon said:

    …from reading your posts on other websites (such as Siddity), I got the distinct impression that you were against Black women dating/marrying out.

    You present a very different version of yourself here.

    Menelik replies:

    would you be so kind as to either cut ‘n’ paste a comment I’ve allegedly made to give you that impression or at least direct the reader to a site in which I have opposed Black women dating out?

    Like


  183. on Thu Dec 3rd 2009 at 00:20:39 Menelik Charles

    @Dani,

    you really should be thanking your parents, sweetie!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  184. well all i want to say is halle is a beautiful person but not the most beautiful black woman in america and she doesn’t represent every black woman in america. same with beyonce.

    Like


  185. @ Patricia Kayden

    I know what you mean. There are other sites that he comments on that are VERY anti-black female interracial dating,not that he says anything per se , but by not saying anything to his ‘bro’s’ implies that he condones the misplaced venom directed at black women.
    That’s why I wanted to read his book about black women. Curiosity.

    Like


  186. on Fri Dec 4th 2009 at 00:20:58 Menelik Charles

    MerriMay said:

    @ Patricia Kayden

    I know what you mean. There are other sites that he comments on that are VERY anti-black female interracial dating,not that he says anything per se , but by not saying anything to his ‘bro’s’ implies that he condones the misplaced venom directed at black women.

    @MerriMay,

    “misplaced venom directed” at which Black women, dear? Those in inter-racial relationships who simply mind their own business or those who advocate that Black women should “open their options” while at the same time promoting an insidious brand of anti-Black male racism?

    A simple question, dear, requiring but a simple straightforward answer. Will you answer it?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  187. No dinctinctions are ever made on those sites as to what ‘type’ of black woman in IRs were they?.Its all of them.The crime seems to be daring to date interracially.

    Your own inaction of distinguishing that fact to the moderator is what is troubling and implies you’re in cahoots with that kind of logic. I didn’t hear you take the stand you’re taking with me, ie pointing out to the moderator to differentiate between those that ‘mind their own business’ and those ‘promoting anti-black male racism’.

    Pointless to say anything more on the matter,its redundant.I’ve stopped going there.
    Abagond is a much more balanced and intelligent forum for discussion that doesn’t espouse rubbish about one another.
    At least here there is some constructive dialogue that doesn’t demean, bully and insult black women, we get enough of that in society period.
    Out of respect for Abagond, I’ll refrain from giving such ridiculous sites exposure they don’t deserve.

    Like


  188. Sorry that should be ‘distinctions’,am half asleep..

    Like


  189. Menelik,

    Do you know what the title of your book will be because I will be reading it when it comes out.

    Like


  190. on Fri Dec 4th 2009 at 05:43:41 Menelik Charles

    MerriMay said:

    No dinctinctions are EVER made on those sites as to what ‘type’ of black woman in IRs were they?.Its all of them.The crime seems to be daring to date interracially.

    Menelik replies:

    1) this is absolute nonsense: a clear distinction was/is made on Mr Queens site between Evia & her ilk and Black women who date inter-racially without reference to Black men!

    2) I have frequently challenged Mr Queens to refrain from the name-calling as it detracts from HIS message.

    3) There has been no “inaction” on my part and YOU are in no position to state otherwise!

    MerriMay said:

    No dinctinctions are ever made on those sites…

    Menelik replies:

    what SITES (plural) are you referring to? Can you please NAME them so we can be a little more specific about the area of discussion.

    Menelik Charles
    LOndon England

    Like


  191. on Fri Dec 4th 2009 at 06:05:55 Menelik Charles

    Shani asked:

    Do you know what the title of your book will be because I will be reading it when it comes out?

    Menelik replied:

    yes, I do have a title but to reveal it now would possibly give away the theoretical basis for my book (a theory I’d been working on for over 20yrs).

    All I’m willing to reveal now is that much of what we believe is true re why dark skinned Black women are at the bottom of the symbolic beauty totem is utterly untrue (i.e. that whites see them as less attractive than, say, the Halle Berry types).

    My case can easily prove this assumption to be untrue. I have the physical evidence, and it will, like Darwin’s theory of evolution, stand up to academic scrutiny!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    ps excuse my over-asertiveness above but seriously, and honestly, I have mountains of evidence to support both my theory and my overall case.

    Like


  192. I won’t go into meaningless debates with people that know full well the position they took on certain sites.
    Moving on…

    Like


  193. Sorry am all over Abagond today, am home sick.
    @Menelik
    If u did challenge ‘Queens’ on the name calling then I owe you an apology, i just hadn’t seen it.
    Either way glad to hear of a book coming out celebrating the beauty of black women, I do wish you luck with that, and I for one will be looking forward to it.
    Peace

    Like


  194. Hurry up and finish your book, Menelik! LOL

    Like


  195. Is this book going to be balanced and fair to lighter skinned black women? I hope that it celebrates all shades of black because we all deserve to be celebrated.

    Like


  196. on Sat Dec 5th 2009 at 21:07:06 Menelik Charles

    islandgirl said:

    Is this book going to be balanced and fair to lighter skinned black women? I hope that it celebrates all shades of black because we all deserve to be celebrated.

    Menelik replied:

    sista, the “balance” is provided by simply aknowledging the fundamental beauty of a group of women whose allure has thus far gone largely unaknowledged and/or derided by wider society.

    I will not seek to reinforce what has already been over-stated i.e. that women of the fairer hue are beautiful – as society already holds up women of ALL races fitting this description as beauties supreme.

    Thus this imbalance can only be corrected by showing how and why women of a darker African hue have been discriminated against, demoralised and oppressed in the service of maintaining the supremacy of the white female.

    As I said earlier, the alleged moral sanctity and beauty supremacy of the white female forms the cornerstone of white supremacy in all of its gruesome forms.

    Thus, women of a paler complexion, of all races, need no support from me, a Black man whose own blood sistas are burdened with a societal induced colour complex.

    I am in the most fortunate position to possess concrete evidence proving that it is, indeed, the darker skinned, negroid-featured female with her African contours which confront white men with the full consequences of being heterosexual and which, as a result, cause within them the need to do the following:

    1) to ignore their inherent beauty

    2) to deny their inherent beauty

    3) to claim that any Black woman who causes them to feel lust & appreciation is merely “pretty for a Black girl”.

    This is just about all I am willing to say right now but do please keep in mind that the most derided group of women in white society are those held up as the beauty (and by extension) racial ideal.

    “Blondes have more fun”, it is said. Not quite. I think you’ll find that more “fun” is had at the expense of blondes than anything else.

    “Dumb blonde”, anyone? How about a promiscious Blondes, perhaps?

    My point is that free Black women pose a threat to the racial order held together by the myth of the white female and so thus are sanitised in the form of a Beyonce or a Halle Berry who are then assimilated into this myth and psycho-social white supremacy reigns supreme for another day.

    The likes of Kelly Rowlands and Estelle can go hang!

    Thank you.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  197. on Sat Dec 5th 2009 at 22:12:49 Menelik Charles

    Abagond said:

    …Beyonce is to music, what Halle Berry is to Black beauty: both seem to be pushed by Hollywood…or whoever, way beyond their merits. They are both good, but not that good.

    You wind up getting sick of them, almost hating them.

    Menelik says:

    I guess you feel this way because you sense that it’s not so much a colour preference or prejudice being suggested here but an oppressive mechanism being operated to ENFORCE a preference, to limit choice, and ultimately to maintain white supremacy as the societal norm.

    To go against that norm one must locate one’s preference between prostitution and/or in some socially deviant location e.g. the ghetto. This is where Hollywood typically consigns the alluring dark-skinned Black female.

    Alternatively, she may be found in the mammy-in-training role supporting some scrawny, pallid Ali McBeal-type “hottie” in the latest ‘chick flick’ or tv series.

    Yes, you’ll find some pretty alluring dark-skinned hotties in such roles but you’ll also doubtless end up deeply resenting her de-sexualised (read de-femininised) status next her, sometimes, dreadfully plain white female co-star!

    You like “nigger lips”? Check out Angelina Jolie. Want a hot butt? Check out J-Lo. Want some melanin enhanced babe? Check out the tanning salons or the beach. Celebrate, lust after or envy these characteristics but just don’t ever aknowledge that there exists a single race of women who, by nature, possess all of these characteristics at birth.

    Don’t buck the system! Don’t tell the truth! White men and women have a racial inferiority complex! This is why Black women have to be oppressed where it hurts most…at the core of their self-image!

    Get it?

    No?

    Ok, but let’s just see if we can figure out why the ugly sisters oppressed Cinderella, and were so intent on keeping her away from the royal ball. And later, were so determined to squeeze their over-sized feet into her glass slipper

    Envy perhaps?

    Just a thought!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  198. Menelik Charles:

    I agree. There are plenty of beautiful black women – just walking down the street in New York like it was nothing – but you barely ever see them on television. Most of the ones you do see are at the extremes, like you said, of desexualized (Queen Latifah) on the one hand to trashy-looking prostitute types (Flavor of Love) on the other.

    Like


  199. Menelik,

    Thanks for the response and I certainly don’t want this to turn into a “tit for tat”, but I disagree with you to a point. As a lighter skinned, thin black woman, I rarely get support from the black community.

    The thing is, I think black people should support each other more, regardless if they don’t fit into your agenda or security level.

    Yes, I totally agree that Halle and Beyonce are pushed. We need more variety. But this shouldn’t come at the expense of women who are viewed as “privledged” because of color, hair type or size. And I’m not infering that this is what the book is about. But that is the reason I made that comment.

    The grass always looks greener.

    Like


  200. Menelik,

    Concrete evidence? I know you won’t mention what it is but I am wondering what kind of evidence could you have that is concrete. The Cinderella example you gave made perfect sense.

    You know what, Menelik. Now that I am thinking about everything you have said, it is making perfect sense. Black women are innately sensual. I’ve even had black men tell me that. Halle is beautiful but her sensuality is not threatening to whites because she doesn’t quite have that “it” factor that many black women have when it comes to being sensual, so they have no problem putting her in leading lady roles. She doesn’t really disrupt the system. As say Kenya Moore with all her body who would probably turn gay men straight if they would put her in a leading lady mainstream role, but that’s not happening.

    As long as this has been going on, people should have figured most of this out by now. America is threatened black female sexuality for obvious reasons.

    Like


  201. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 02:12:16 Menelik Charles

    Shani said:

    Halle is beautiful but her sensuality is not threatening to whites because she doesn’t quite have that “it” factor… America is threatened black female sexuality for obvious reasons.

    Menelik replies:

    you are making my point exactly! Many confidant Black women suspect that something is not quite right, that something just doesn’t add up.

    The mistake they often make (as does Abagond) is assuming that the white (male) mass media which perpetuates this centuries-long racial beauty saga are some how racist i.e. that they do so because they feel or believe that white is right…always.

    Let’s just say this: if Cinderella was a true story, she’d have grown up with an inferiority complex on account of how she was treated by the Ugly Sisters. It took a fairy godmother to come to her aid and a prince to rescue her from her plight.

    The ‘beauty’ (well, privilege, actually) of the Ugly Sisters was gained from subtracting from the inherent beauty and grace of Cinderella. Their wealth bought them access to the ‘beautiful people’ i.e. royalty and the landed gentry.

    The social marginalisation of Cinderella maintained this privilege and reinforced Cinderella’s social isolation and low self-esteem. In reality, it was the Ugly Sisters who felt inferior to their beautiful step-sister. They were ugly in both body and mind.

    Does this tale not remind you of a certain race of women’s plight in white America? Very little is subtracted from the value of Oriental, Latino, south Asian or bi-racial women. Moreover, white women rarely seek to distort their bodies or to apply various shades of tan to appear like any of the above groups of females.

    Feminine value is instead subtracted from Black women by white women and then celebrated (by white men) as healthy (a dark tan) or sexy (a round butt or a thick pair of lips.

    The only reason white women are not generally aknowledged as possessing a natural racial inferiority complex in relation to Black women is because there exists no theoretical context (until now) to make sense of what is occuring daily before our very eyes.

    In my book I show how white racism is, indeed a myth! Yes, racial discrimination exists. As does racial hostility. But not white racism. How can this be so? Well, I discuss my logic in my book…all of which is backed up with visual and theoretical evidence which cannot easily be dismissed.

    I have been collecting evidence for my book since the age of 17. That’s 20-years past. I’ve had two American publishers on my case for years to finish it but the evidence keeps flowing in, and so I invariably put back the finishing date. I am ready to let it go now.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  202. I agree with you Islandgirl. One thing that I notice is that as much as people complain about “beauty standards” and such, colorism (as it relates to dating and relationships) is most strongly enforced by Black people, specifically Black men when it comes to Black women. Whatever reason some White men have for not dating Black women, it’s usually applied indiscriminately, without exception for ligher-skinned women. (I personally think this is because of the one-drop rule–if you are perceived as Black by Whites, the amount of melanin you have doesn’t matter. In the same way, I kind of scratch my head when White girls talk about being self-conscious about their paleness–in my mind I’m thinking they just look “White” to me.) I hear the most ignorant comments about skin color from–guess who?–other Black people. I say this as someone who gets chased by all kinds of men, except Black ones, who only catcall (but I don’t count that as genuine interest). It doesn’t bother me, because I don’t have race quotas for male attention, but it seems like the people most invested in maintaining beauty standards (of which the latest seems to be “mixed” women in the BC) are predominantly black men.

    Like


  203. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 02:46:43 Menelik Charles

    islandgirl said:

    Menelik, Thanks for the response and I certainly don’t want this to turn into a “tit for tat”, but I disagree with you to a point. As a lighter skinned, thin black woman, I rarely get support from the black community.

    Menelik replies:

    I’m not sure what you mean by “support”, babe. And which sex in the Black community is hostile to your presence? The women, perhaps…and the oddd male.

    I think you’ll find that most rap and r’n’b videos offer you all the “support” your self-esteem needs to flourish. What’s truly lacking is support for how the mass majority of how Black women look.

    Have you offered them your “support”? Have you raged against the colour prejudice they’re subjected in the Black mass media, let alone the white one?

    Why is it necessary that I “support” you when I have not come close to attacking sistas of a lighter hue?

    islandgirl said:

    I totally agree that Halle and Beyonce are pushed. We need more variety. But this shouldn’t come at the expense of (lighter) women who are viewed as “privledged”…

    Menelik replies:

    I have never known of an individual or a group of light-complexioned sistas advocating for a greater “variety” of Black women in the mass media. Have you?

    Instead, individually and collectively they sit back and allow the likes of Kanye West, Yung Berg and now Neyo dismiss dark-skinned women as inferior. This is NOT a complaint, sweetie, merely a fact.

    It’s funny how people never realise they’re “privileged” (as you put it) until that “privilege” is challenged. And then they play the victim and demand “fairness”. It’s a bit like the KKK demanding racial equality for whites…the absurdity of it!

    What have you done in your life to bring about “fairness” to countless dark-skinned girls who will doubtless grow up feeling themselves less “privileged” than lighter-skinned sistas?

    My book will not stoop to attacking whites etc but it will challenge a status quo in which the “privileged” will not be sitting comfortably in their seats. Should you not be encouraging me to “fight the power” and to bring about a fairness in which your darker-skinned sistas are no longer consigned to the toilets of white society?

    And your answer is….

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  204. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 03:11:10 Menelik Charles

    Jasmin said:

    I agree with you Islandgirl. One thing that I notice is that as much as people complain about “beauty standards” and such, colorism (as it relates to dating and relationships) is most strongly enforced by Black people, specifically Black men when it comes to Black women.

    Menelik replied:

    Funny, I don’t recall islandgirl talking about “beauty standards” or…colorism (as it relates to dating and relationships)”.

    And nor did I read anything about her mentioning Black men bullying Black women not to date white men! This is mere wishful thinking on your part, sista. The masses of Black women do not desire to date white men. Have you not heard?

    I guess it really irks some Black women that the men of their race are perhaps the only group of men deemed more attractive than their women lol. Of course, this is NOT true but I do wish certain types of Black women would stop perpetuating the myth that African-Americam men have the power to prevent white men and Black women from hooking up!

    It is tantamount to holocaust denial given how powerless Black men were for centuries to prevent white men from raping their women and girls.

    Moreover, the history books show that white men and Black women conspired to keep Black men from hooking up with white women…for obvious reasons.

    Why do people like you continue to replace history with contemporary myth? If you want to date the most powerful and privileged group of men on the planet, I’m pretty sure some street-lurking Black thug couldn’t stop you lol

    Thanks.

    ps and please don’t put words in islandgirls mouth. It is very rude to lie in order to spread more lies!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  205. As an African female who is neither light nor dark(not that I care but I’ll play along) I can’t say I’ve witnessed this so called hostility towards light skinned women in the black community. It’s almost akin to white women claiming to be bullied by us jealous black women, I just don’t see it I’m afraid.
    The public ridicule of Young Berg’s ‘dark butts’ am sure had a lot of our light skinned sistas(those that are so persecuted in the BC)glad they weren’t the subject of such ridicule, after all they aren’t ‘that dark’ and exempt from it.
    I agree with Menelik’s logic that no one rushed to darker skinned black women’s defense. If at all our darker sisters complained, they’re bitter, nappy headed et al.
    They revelled,subconsciously of course, in their lighter hued previlege.
    This however shouldn’t turn into another light skin/dark skin debate, we’re all black period!My issues are why wider(read white) society continues to deny us our rightful place, centre stage with other races of women.Not that we need society to validate our beauty:)
    The random beautiful women on this blog are testament to that.

    Like


  206. My answer is that I totally agree with Jasmine. And intially I was going to use her as an example but thought I should keep her name out of it. She is one of probably countless examples of women of a darker hue who doesn’t experience this seemingly elusive victimization. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, but we ALL have our hardships, especially as black women.

    When a white person looks at me or any other lighter skinned women (which I’m not as light as the pic, but that’s how other blacks describe me), do you think they categorize us? No. They see a black woman, period. Now, beauty is beauty regardless of shade. So whether a woman is dark or light and she’s beautiful, people will notice. Jasmin doesn’t have any problems with men either.

    I still say that blacks are our own worst enemy in regards to colorism. The most ignorant comments are from other blacks. And blacks of EVERY shade have heard their share of derogitory comments.

    And in regards to videos, I live in the real world not a video set. I don’t know Kayne or Young Berg or Ne-Yo. So I can’t relate to that.

    Like


  207. MerriMay,

    I don’t think that lighter women revelled in Young Berg’s comments. I didn’t and I hate when anything derogitory is said about any of us.:)

    Like


  208. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 03:51:25 Menelik Charles

    Islandgirl said:

    1) Yes, I totally agree that Halle and Beyonce are pushed. We need more variety.

    2) When a white person looks at me or any other lighter skinned women – do you think they categorize us? No. They see a black woman, period. Now, beauty is beauty regardless of shade.

    Menelik replies:

    darling, which one is it: the first point or the second one? It surely can’t be both. The white mass media either “push” Beyonce and Halle at the expense of darker-skinned Black women or they don’t?

    If they view them as merely Black as you suggested in your second point, then clearly they are not treating beauty as beauty regardless of colour but because of it…a pale colour. Hence the lack of variety you claim we need!

    Island girl said:

    And in regards to videos, I live in the real world not a video set. I don’t know Kayne or Young Berg or Ne-Yo. So I can’t relate to that.

    Menelik replies:

    then clearly you do not entertain yourself with music, books, films, magazines etc. In which case, what are you doing conversing with strangers on the internet?

    The music of Beyonce and the films of Halle Berry are all part of the industries you claim needs to show more varieties of Black women! Are you willing to retract that statement in order so as to score points against me?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  209. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 03:55:38 Menelik Charles

    @ islandgirl,

    darling, you’ve yet to answer my questions I asked you at 212. Will you have a bash at a few of them please?

    menelik charles
    London England

    Like


  210. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 04:22:44 Menelik Charles

    MerriMay said:

    My issues are with wider(read white) society, which continues to deny us our rightful place, centre stage with other races of women.

    Not that we need society to validate our beauty:)

    Menelik replied:

    And nor do dark-skinned Black women need white society to INVALIDATE their beauty which is precisely what it does at present!

    Thus, in order for Black women to be accorded their “rightful place, centre stage with other races of women” you will most certainly require the white male-dominated mass media to begin to honestly “validate” or reflect the standard norms of Black beauty.

    Yes?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  211. Menelik,

    Using your Cinderella example, the stepsisters felt inferior to Cinderella only because she was more beautiful. Now using this to apply to your logic of why black women are devalued and ignored, why do you think they feel inferior besides aesthetic reasons? It has to be deeper than our shell.

    Do you realize that maybe that not all whites may feel this way? There are exceptions to every rule.

    Like


  212. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 07:20:34 Menelik Charles

    @Shani,

    whether we like it or not looks count for an awful lot in all societies. How, say, white women look in relation to Black women is a huge blow to their egos so much so that in moment described as REACTION FORMATION in pyschoanalysis they frequently become bigger fans of, say, Beyonce than any teenaged Black girl.

    They sense sub-consciously what Beyonce function is in white society (she was chosen to represent white women) and so never escape an opportunity to say how beautiful she is.

    Beyonce’s appearence does not SUBTRACT from that of a white woman but merely adds to it. She is thus unwittingly an instrument of white supremacy rather than of African-American femininity.

    Yes, not all whites envy Blacks, true. But admiration is the flipside of envy, remember. Furthermore, the hostility so-called racist whites display towards Blacks is but an expression of envy.

    The Ugly Sister were hostile towards Cinderella, were theey not? They discriminated against her, did they not? They never remarked on how beautiful she was, did they?

    In conclusion, yes, there are exceptions… but they merely prove the rule!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  213. Why can’t both statements be true? Yes, Halle and Beyonce are pushed. Yes, there needs to be more variety, not only in shade but more actresses/singers period. Not just the same two.

    And yes, most white people do not categorize us. They are not saying in their minds, “o.k., she’s light skinned or she’s dark skinned, so I should treat her accordingly”. Or “she’s a beautiful light or dark skinned woman.” Unless they are engaged in the culture through other people. There are always exceptions, but most do not. They have no clue.

    I love entertainment, but I don’t let it dictate my self-esteem or influence me THAT heavily. I can listen to Snoop without getting high. I can see top atheletes with nothing but blonds on their arms without wishing I were blond or disliking every blond who doesn’t even have anything to do with that situation.

    Not sure which question you’r referring to. In life, whenever you are considered to have an advantage (whether it’s true or not) you don’t get support because people think you don’t need it. In fact, the opposite. Whether you’re lighter, have “good hair”, thin, whatever. People preceive your life to be wine and roses and feel they have to level you. It becomes a double standard because the very way that they complain about their treatment, they turn around and do it to the “privledged”. Either way, it’s wrong.

    Like


  214. One more thing. I never viewed dark skinned women as some charity case who needs stroking. Maybe I’m totally out of touch, but I see dark skinned women getting about the same treatment as light, with some exceptions. If they are attractive, then the are appreciated as such. But, that goes for anyone.

    The point is that there are deeper issues that pretain to race without US contributing to it.

    Like


  215. The moratorium against Soul and Mynameismyname (see comment #166) is lifted.

    Like


  216. Mynaneismyname comments:

    “Islandgirl is right on target. The same prejudice that can hurt “darker” black women also affects their lighter counterparts equally.

    Black women, as a whole, are not victims who are hard pressed to be told that they are beautiful. That view is actually quite patronizing, no?

    Also, Kanye and Ne-Yo never made derogatory remarks about black women. But like Islandgirl pointed out, both them and their comments are irrevelant to us in the real world as we do not live on a video set.
    (BTW, do most people even know who Yung Berg is? Why would any intelligent adult use some C-list rapper to give credibility to an arguement? LOL)

    Jasmine is also absolutely correct. You hear black folks complain about “colorism” but it seems that they are the ones who perpetuate it the most against themselves. Hopefully, a future blog on creating solutions to this eternal issue will be posed soon. Lord knows that many of us (of all races) need it!”

    Like


  217. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 08:03:34 Menelik Charles

    Islandgirl said:

    …most white people do not categorize us. They are not saying in their minds, “o.k., she’s light skinned or she’s dark skinned, so I should treat her accordingly”…There are always exceptions, but most do not. They have no clue.

    Menelik replies:

    Darling, I suspect, wrongly or rightly, that my being a Black male maybe preventing you from accepting what is both obvious and true. Really, I do!

    Abagond said:

    Hollywood seems to push Halle Berry as the height of black beauty…I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not…black beauty but… white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.

    Menelik says:

    @islandgirl, maybe you need to take issues with Abagond since we are saying much the same thing…plus he’s white which may or not be a factor in how you respond to his wise words.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  218. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 08:14:34 Menelik Charles

    Abagond said:

    1) Kanye and Ne-Yo never made derogatory remarks about black women. But like Islandgirl pointed out…their comments are irrevelant to us in the real world as we do not live on a video set.

    2) You hear black folks complain about “colorism” but it seems that they are the ones who perpetuate it the most against themselves.

    Menelik replies:

    Then Kanye & Ne-Yo’s alleged comments aren’t that “irrelevant” if they are a reflection of what described as an “eternal issue”, are they?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  219. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 10:05:04 mynameismyname

    ^^^
    Yea, they would be, if Kanye or Ne-Yo actually said them.

    And again, why are you using (alleged) celeb quotes to illustrate your point. Yes, the media can influence how we think and fell but it is not the catalyst for anti-black racism.

    In the 1880s before MTV and whatever other example you were using, what could be blamed for these types of ideas in the minds of black folks?

    Like


  220. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 10:38:51 Menelik Charles

    mynameismyname said:

    Yea, they would be, if Kanye or Ne-Yo actually said them. And again, why are you using (alleged) celeb quotes to illustrate your point?

    Menelik replied:

    You cannot be serious! Doesn’t my point still stand (which was inadvertedly supported by Abagond) whether I use their alleged quotes or not?

    We are a people riven with anti-African sentiments and yet we are an African people. Don’t yet get it? Do they (who be ‘they’, bro?) still have to hide the truth of our predicament in books to keep it from us?

    Your name is your name, eh? Well, actually, it isn’t – it belongs to our traditional and contemporary enemies!

    And what the hell do you think the white-male dominated mass media has declared upon women of African descent, love? It’s war, bro, straight out war!

    You really don’t get it?

    It really surprises me how little African-American history you guys actually know beyond some childish ‘Black’ soundbite!

    Sometimes I feel like a Jew because those guys “never forget” or make light of their suffering. We do, which is why we keep going around in circles as a people.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  221. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 16:12:12 mynameismyname

    ^^^
    Menelik,

    Now you are sounding very condesending.

    I am not a child. I am not some “western black” who is unaware of or apathetic about the anti-black racism that has vexed people of African descent since the day that they were unwillingly brought her.

    Since it seems as you haven’t read many of my countless comments on this blog, I personally invite you to e-mail me so you can get an even better idea of who I am and what I’m about.

    You’d be suprised to know what my “government name” is. It’s as far from Anglo as you can get. Just like I am, ethnically.

    Brother, I get you’re saying. Nothing you’re saying is original. It’s been said (and remained relevant) for centuries. But what are we going to do about it? How can we all help to get rid of it? Like I told another angry poster on this blog, it’s a waste of time to just get angry with no intention of trying to initiate change.

    And, lastly, yes, “white society” has long been unfair to black women. We all know that all too well. But to paint black women as some poor, hard-up “ugly duckling” victims is to grossly underestimate their beauty, resilience and value.

    Like


  222. Menelik,

    Thanks for answering my question. I get what you are saying about Beyonce, and it makes sense, but when I continue to think, I can’t help but agree and disagree with the point you made about her. Beyonce has a black woman’s body for sure. In her features, I see almond shaped eyes, thick lips and thick bone structure, all features of West African women, so whatever “white woman” they see in her must be through her light skin and lacefront wig.LOL

    Like


  223. Menelik, please don’t put words in my mouth, and please stop using platitudes a 5th-grader could dissect. And I am going to warn you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again.

    When did I say anything about White men and Black women? My point is that the judgments that matter most to Black women are those of other Black people (specifically men) not White people. Therefore, focusing on the beauty standards White people push is a moot point, because the BC has it’s own subcultural definition of what’s hot and what’s not. Unless you are telling me that Blacks have been brainwashed by Whites, in which case you would be condescending to them?

    Since you have yet to provide any statistical jargon to back up your claims, what you say about your book sounds like a load of horse dung. If you are writing a pop psychology book, fine, but if you haven’t used sound psychological methods in this alleged longitudinal study, portraying it as such is unethical and a bit tacky, don’t you think?

    I haven’t made it through all of the comments, but I agree with the last paragraph of MNIMN’s right about mine. Black women don’t need your approval, help, or commiseration. Contrary to what some blogs might have you believe, most of us aren’t sitting at home lamenting how ugly we are and how no men want us because the opposite is true. Painting Black women as “sistas” you feel for is just another form of condescension, and I doubt any of them (including myself) want/need anything from you.

    Like


  224. Islandgirl,

    I still agree with your original point. The colorism issue for light- and dark-skinned Blacks is just 2 flips of the same coin. I can’t judge on the relative “suffering” (such a melodramatic term, but that’s how some people act) of light- vs. dark-skinned Blacks, because I personally have never had “color hardships.” Neither has my best friend, whose a little bit darker than I am, nor the countless popular girls in my primary and secondary schools, most of whom were darker-skinned. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but it negates the oft-heard sentiment of dark skin = unattractive. For light-skinned girls, being judged attractive has it’s drawbacks, because they have to worry about being a fetish. Who wants to be known as someone’s “light-skinned dream”, “redbone”, or any of the other many names light-skinned women are called? I have more to say about this but I need to get some lunch so I will be back later. 🙂

    Like


  225. I just wanted to come in the post and divert the discussion and just say Black women are the shit end of discussion.

    Like


  226. Jasmin said:

    For light-skinned girls, being judged attractive has it’s drawbacks, because they have to worry about being a fetish. Who wants to be known as someone’s “light-skinned dream”, “redbone”, or any of the other many names light-skinned women are called? I have more to say about this but I need to get some lunch so I will be back later.

    “Uh, I like a long hair thick red-bone
    open up her legs to filet mignon that pussy” Come on Lil’ Wayne show some class. That line always bugged me. I’m dark skin and never undergone colorism, but I have seen others who have in front of my face. So I’m not colorism apologist, and write off my experience as proof that it doesn’t exist and “blame the victim” when ever a dark skin woman discusses her problems with colorism, (which usually that happens). I find it funny that if I find Gaborey Sidibe to be pretty, I’m being PC. So now because I think a big dark skin woman is pretty, I’m lying and PC? Damn come on folks!

    Like


  227. @ Shani
    In her features, I see almond shaped eyes, thick lips and thick bone structure, all features of West African women, so whatever “white woman” they see in her must be through her light skin and lacefront wig.LOL

    Why are those features the preserve of West African women? Why not black women period? Of all black women in Africa, why is always ‘West’ that counts? Better revise that hon.

    Like


  228. There are differences in how light skin women and dark skin women are treated. I talked about this in another thread on Abagond’s blog. I’ll just say light skin girls get the “uppity” label put on the “not black enough” label. Dark skin girls get the “She jealous of light skin women” label “She pretty for a dark skin girl” label or “She too dark”. Come on folks we gotta do better. So neither dark and light are accepted you just have to an in betweenie to be fully accepted because no one is going play tug-a-war with you.

    Like


  229. Menelik,

    First, I did not now you are a man. But that has nothing to do with my opinions. Also, Abagond’s white?! I didn’t catch that. Where did you get that info?

    Abagond may share your sentiments, but he is not the one writing a book. I just wanted to make sure that one group of BLACK women are not attacked.

    I’m glad that there are at least a couple of posters who understand what I’m trying to convey.

    Jasmin, we share a similiar experience. I know there are exceptions, but I just do not see dark skinned black women who suffer socially because of their shade. And it is just two flips of the same coin. Great way of putting it!

    Like


  230. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 18:10:43 Menelik Charles

    mynameismyname said:

    Menelik,

    I am not a child. I am not some “western black” who is unaware of or apathetic about the anti-black racism that has vexed people of African descent since the day that they were unwillingly brought her.

    Menelik replied:

    I should jolly well hope not!

    mynameismyname said:

    I personally invite you to e-mail me so you can get an even better idea of who I am … You’d be suprised to know what my “government name” is. It’s as far from Anglo as you can get…

    Menelik Charles replies:

    where I am wrong is where I stand to be corrected. No point scoring on this side of the pond, bro. The issues are there to be debated.

    mynameismyname said:

    Brother, I get what you’re saying. Nothing you’re saying is original. It’s been said for centuries.

    Menelik Charles replies:

    I’m confused. What exactly are you talking about here?

    mynameismyname said:

    But what are we going to do about it? How can we all help to get rid of it?

    Menelik Charles replies:

    again, I’m confused. Do what about what? and get rid of what exactly?

    mynameismyname said:

    lastly…to paint black women as some poor, hard-up “ugly duckling” victims is to grossly underestimate their beauty, resilience and value.

    Menelik Charles replies:

    “ugly ducklings”? I think I came as close as hell to painting white women as “ugly” (sisters) NOT Black women! I doubt that anyone has depicted Cinderella (whom I compare the status of Black women to) as an “ugly duckling”!

    And as for me appearing to “grossly” underestimating the “beauty and resilience” of Black women, well, I’m really not sure WHO you are referring to here. Once again, you’ve left me somewhat confused.

    To be clear (as I have been throughout)I have spoken of Black women in the highest possible terms.

    I have also, along with Abagond, suggested that Black women are victims of a terrible fraud instigated and maintained by, for Hollywood i.e. white men. This is a fact. It does not make them “poor” or hard up”. It simply makes them wronged!

    Moreover, I have made it abundantly clear throughout that I intend to right this wrong. What are your plans on the matter, bro?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  231. island girl said:

    but I just do not see dark skinned black women who suffer socially because of their shade.

    How so? I’ve acutally seen it. The dark skin women with bluish/violet undertones usually are the butt of the jokes. Jasmin and I did not go through this experience because we are not dark enough to be called names. Also its regional. Colorism is really bad in the south. My best friend is light skin when she moved to Atlanta she started to be more color conscious. She said that the men down there do value them far more than dark skin women. She never really gave her color much thought up North but she was blowned away of slave-minded some of those folks were. Trust me she heard the most ignorant stuff come out some people’s mouths. So yeah for some depending on how dark or light you are it will affect your social interactions.

    Like


  232. MerriMay,

    I am not going to revise it because there is no need to. Those features are more common in West African women. Africa is the most diverse continent, right? So since there are black people who look many different ways and have all the original features, why is it wrong for me to make the distinction? We get upset when white people stereotype black people all looking one way, so why should we turn around and do the same thing. No, black people look different and diverse and that is why I made the distinction.

    Like


  233. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 18:33:50 mynameismyname

    Menelik,

    I was really trying to understand where you were coming from. But now it seems like you’re talking in circles and not making much sense in the process.

    Again, I invite you to e-mail me. Perhaps, you can better explain where you’re going with your thought process and your aim to right the wrongs. I geniunely want to understand it better.

    Jasmin,

    Wow, you perfectly articulated what I’ve tried to emphasize to black folks when they play “opression olympics” in terms of who have been hurt the most by “color hardships”. Like I said elsewhere on this blog, NO ONE really wins in the black American variation of color prejudice.

    Like


  234. dani,

    You are so right. I am what the black community consider to be an in between color and in all my 20 something years, I have never been called a derogatory name about my skin shade. I even had one young lady, who is light skin say that my skin tone is perfect because it is not too light or too dark. As if it should matter. This may sound a bit weird, but when I was in high school, the girls who were the in-between in skin tone were voted queens and etc and were chased by the boys. The light girls were called sluts, and the dark girls were called rough necks. This school I attended was the exception to the “rule”. It was so noticeable that it was even talked about openly on campus. And this was in the south! Yes, at that high school, you were labeled as such simply because of your skin tone. Sad but true.

    Like


  235. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 18:42:32 mynameismyname

    Shani,

    But MerryMae is just saying that there are many West Africans who DON’T have those features you mentioned. Who’s to say that Beyonce or many other black Americans’ African roots HAVE to come from West Africa? They’ve could’ve easily come from Central Africa. (WA and CA were the two main regions where Africans were stolen by Euro masters in transit to the “new world.)

    In any event, I agree that Beyonce is stereotypically “Sudanid”-appearing despite the tacky wigs/weaves.

    Dani,

    I used to think the same thing in terms of colorism being bigger among black folks down south than up North. But you know, I wonder if people in the South are just more up-front and vocal about how they feel? Perhaps, Northern folks share similar sentiments but know the risks of voicing them?

    Like


  236. That is true. No one wins in black America’s color variation. Some may think that light women get preferential treatment when they suffer too as the example I gave as to what happened at my high school.

    Like


  237. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 18:43:36 Menelik Charles

    Jasmin said:

    Menelik, please don’t put words in my mouth…When did I say anything about White men and Black women?

    Menelik replies:

    In answer to your question, read exactly what you ‘said’ out of your own “mouth” at no 211

    Jasmin said:

    Whatever reason some White men have for not dating Black women, it’s usually applied indiscriminately, without exception for ligher-skinned women.

    Menelik replies:

    does this answer your question?

    Jasmin said:

    I am going to warn you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again.

    Menelik replies:

    have you any idea how you come across, missy?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  238. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 18:47:16 mynameismyname

    Also Shani,

    I totally believe you!

    From what I can tell, “medium”-complexioned black women seem to the ideal for black America as a whole. Hence why they represent the majority of black women in the entertainment industry, etc.

    There is a “too light” and a “too dark” for black folks. But no “too medium”. People can’t hate on you when you are not an extreme.

    Like


  239. mynameismyname said:

    Dani,

    I used to think the same thing in terms of colorism being bigger among black folks down south than up North. But you know, I wonder if people in the South are just more up-front and vocal about how they feel? Perhaps, Northern folks share similar sentiments but know the risks of voicing them?

    LMAO You might be right. The south is blantantly racist so why not some of them be more blantantly colorist? Good point. I respect that about the south, I would whether have someone who blantantly tells me they don’t like for my skin color, thant to befriend or be with me and don’t see me as an equal while being phony.

    Like


  240. mynameismyname said:

    There is a “too light” and a “too dark” for black folks. But no “too medium”. People can’t hate on you when you are not an extreme.

    I’m saying though! people don’t play tug-a-war with in betweenies lol

    Like


  241. I understand perfectly what MerriMae was saying. I, myself have a mixture of West and East African features and get mistaken for being Ethiopian sometimes even though I am American born. Just because those features are common in West Africans does not mean they are not common anywhere else. And just because many West Africans do not have those features does not mean they are not common among them! Using West Africans as an example does not discount any place else in Africa. I think we are getting more into semantics here and are missing the point. I just used West Africans to make my point.

    Like


  242. mynameismyname

    You are right. Black americans have always seemed to prefer the middle color. I even had one light black woman who was also part hispanic tell me that my skin tone is perfect because I can easily make my self look darker or look lighter. LOL Also the entertainment industry perfectly illustrates this.

    Like


  243. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 19:01:08 Menelik Charles

    Jasmin said:

    Since you have yet to provide any statistical jargon to back up your claims, what you say about your book sounds like a load of horse dung. If you are writing a pop psychology book, fine.

    But if you haven’t used sound psychological methods in this alleged longitudinal study, portraying it as such is unethical and a bit tacky, don’t you think?

    Menelik replies:

    wow, you’re great fun, you are! The book by the way, is a psychoanalytic study of so-called white racism, babes. The research methods are more than reasonably and the conclusive evidence is more than compelling.

    Interested?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  244. I forgot to add that because colorism is such an issue in the black commnunity that we have our own standard when it comes to color. Even though the middle color may not be seen as dark in the black community, I consider myself to be dark simply because when compared to the skin tone of other races, I am dark! LOL I’ve even had people consider me light,especially when I was in high school and that confounded me! It’s odd how we all see skin tone differently.

    Like


  245. Menelik,

    I assume you can read, but you must be having trouble. MY NAME IS JASMIN. Not “missy”, not “sista”, not any of that other bullsh*t you spew. I guess I have permission to call you a dumb *sshole since we are creating nicknames, right? I am not surprised that you are yet another person who wants to play “savior” to Black women with alleged self-esteem issues, yet you seem to have your own brand of disdain for them. This is the last time I will address you since you are not worth my time. Have fun wallowing in your own sh*t.

    PS. Psychoanalysis went out with Freud, so have fun getting that peer-reviewed. (FYI to anyone who’s interested, psychoanalysis is basically made up psychobabble that can’t be objectively measured or categorized. It’s the basis of most of those pop psychology books, which you really shouldn’t waste your money on because the content is just what popped into someone’s head one day, with no scientific basis.) Hard to spew that crap to someone who actually knows what she’s talking about hmm?

    Like


  246. I think I’m considered to be “dark” by most Black people, so I don’t know if the “medium” hypothesis is infallible. Maybe it has to do with the skin undertones, like Dani said? I have red undertones, so maybe that makes me look “brighter” when compared to someone with bluish/violet undertones?

    MNIMN, I was pretty recently introduced to the term “oppression Olympics”, and I think it’s genius. Historically, Blacks have been very strong people, so for people to paint us as these weak individuals with self-esteem as fragile as antique glass makes me roll my eyes. I’m younger than the average poster on these blogs, and I’m sure that colors my perception (like Dani, just because I haven’t experienced colorism doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with those who have experienced it), but I just don’t see large numbers of women sitting at home drinking wine and lamenting the fact that they can’t get a man because of the color of their skin.

    Like


  247. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 19:42:13 Menelik Charles

    mynameismyname said:

    Menelik,

    I was really trying to understand where you were coming from. But now it seems like you’re talking in circles and not making much sense in the process.

    Menelik replies:

    Any objective observer can see that it is, indeed, YOU who is “talking in circles! Please stop projecting your own mode of communication unto me (I happen to possess a diploma in the subject lol).

    You have totally misrepresented what I wrote and then started speaking in tongues! I merely quoted your words right back to you and awaited some clarity where confusion reigned.

    You declined this discreet invitation and now proceed to somewhat harass me with utter nonsense.

    Bro. I am more than willing to concede where I was wrong about aspects of your identity. But you are appear patently unwilling to make yourself clear where clarity was sought.

    Instead you accuse me of creating confusion e.g. by suggesting that I depicted African-American women as “ugly ducklings”. Cinderella bares no relation to an “ugly duckling”!

    You also asked what I was doing about about nothing in particular. I asked for written clarity as to what you meant.

    No response!

    You know, we got to let this stuff go. mood-altering slanging matches are not my gig.

    Thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  248. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 20:06:46 Menelik Charles

    What is an ad hominem argument?

    An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by ATTACKING…a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or PRODUCING EVIDENCE against the claim.

    The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby SUBVERTED, and the ad hominem argument works to CHANGE the subject.

    Jasmin said:

    Menelik, please don’t put words in my mouth…When did I say anything about White men and Black women?

    Menelik replied:

    In answer to your question, read exactly what you ’said’ out of your own “mouth” at no 211

    Jasmin said:

    Whatever reason some White men have for not dating Black women, it’s usually applied indiscriminately, without exception for ligher-skinned women.

    Menelik replies:

    does this answer your question?

    Can you not simply accept that you were wrong without resorting to ad hominem attacks?

    Jasmin said:

    I am not surprised that you are yet another person who wants to play “savior” to Black women with alleged self-esteem issues, yet you seem to have your own brand of disdain for them.

    Menelik replies:

    wow, another ad hominem attack!

    Jasmin said:

    This is the last time I will address you since you are not worth my time. Have fun wallowing in your own sh*t.

    Menelik replies:

    wow, another stereotype-busting rant! And all this because you accused me of putting your OWN words in your OWN mouth? Bit of a bully, aren’t you, Jasmin?

    When was the last time you saw your father?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  249. @ Menelik

    Now that’s not fair to ask her when she last saw her dad. What does that have to do with anything?? I’ve observed this very similar way you tend to bait and sway debate by getting personal. You pulled the same trick at ‘Queens’ blog with another black female blogger who challenged and stood up to you. When you disagree with someone, you derail them by asking where daddy is. Where are you going with that???
    I was willing to hear you out, but this is getting ridiculous!

    Like


  250. I agree with MerriMay, Menelik. I like reading your posts and you make valid points, but that was a low blow asking about her dad.

    Like


  251. Abagond,

    I linked to your blog from mine, since I just finished reading “The Color Complex” and some of the comments here are relevant to my post. Just wanted to let you know. 🙂

    Like


  252. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 22:31:57 Menelik Charles

    MerriMay said:

    @ Menelik

    Now that’s not fair to ask her when she last saw her dad.

    Menelik replies:

    it was but a question! A sarcastic one, yes, but a question all the same. If there’s something in it then it would go some way to explaining the extremily angry and bullying tone of this particular individual.

    If there is nothing in it then it’s merely water off a duck’s back. There is NO problem. Why assume that there is one?

    Anyway, have you been keeping track of her threatening comments towards me? The disrespectful bullying & delusional threats? Consider this:

    Jasmin said:

    And I am going to WARN you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again.

    Menelik says:

    and what is likely to happen if I call her sista? Answer: exactly nothing!

    MerriMay said:

    I’ve observed this very similar way you tend to bait and sway debate by getting personal. You pulled the same trick at ‘Queens’ blog with another black female blogger who challenged and stood up to you.

    Menelik said:

    please point the reader in the direction of this comment! I think a very different picture will emerge!

    NEVER, EVER, EVER WILL ANYONE PROVE THAT I HAVE RESORTED TO ATTACKING ANYONE ON-LINE IN DEFENCE OF MYSELF!

    THE PERSON WHOM I ALLEGEDLY MADE THIS REMARK TO MUST HAVE ATTACKED ME! NOT “STOOD UP” TO ME BUT ATTACKED ME FOR THE VERY LIKELY REASON THAT I AM BLACK AND MALE!

    I DOUBTLESS TREATED HER WITH COURTESY AND FIRMNESS WHILE VERY PROBABLY QUOTING HER WORDS RIGHT BACK AT HER!

    MERRIMAY, DIRECT ALL THE READERS to THE MR QUEENS POST IN QUESTION!

    IN THE MEANTIME TRY AND KEEP UP WITH THE ATTACKS AND FREQUENT PUT DOWNS AGAINST ME HERE BY AT LEAST TWO POSTERS.

    TO MR QUEENS BLOG WE MUST GO!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  253. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 22:38:51 Menelik Charles

    Shani said:

    I agree with MerriMay, Menelik. I like reading your posts and you make valid points, but that was a low blow asking about her dad.

    Menelik reply

    how do you that it was a “low blow”? Please don’t stretch logic by attempting to answer this question. I think you’re worth more than that.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  254. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 23:02:25 mynameismyname

    Jasmine,

    Exactly!

    How did you like “The Color Complex”? I didn’t care for all of it.

    Personally, I see all black people as dark skinned but …well, they are. Just to different degrees, of course. Even if we are to use the “light skinned”/”dark skinned” measure, we all know where the vast majority of black people would wind up.

    You are wise for ignoring an obnoxious poster. I should have been as smart as you earlier in this post.

    And, age ain’t nothing but a number!

    Like


  255. I have read what Jasmin wrote, I don’t need to retrack.
    Not that I’m standing up for her, but seeing as how you’re directing your anger at me, I’ll have to address it.
    Why don’t YOU point people out to Mr Queens blog, refute your behaviour that’s clear to everyone here to see. You started calling her ‘Sista’,to which she told you to refrain, then you persist rather patronizingly by calling her ‘missy’.
    Tell me Menelik, at which point did you not understand her discomfort at you calling her that?? Again you’ve exhibited exactly the same kind of behaviour I observed at Queens, completely unprovoked you rail into people.
    You’ve denied it before, but the more you’re challenged the more you unravel, lol.

    The putdowns you’re referring to again is a couple of bloggers commenting on how your ‘evidence’ is hardly news.Hardly an attack unless you feel they’re undermining your thunder, after all you’ve hyped it so much that of course your logic will come under scrutiny.
    You should be thanking these bloggers and taking notes, when you’re published you will most certainly have critics. Remember these will be the big bad white world, the little comments on this blog should hardly rattle you.
    Now calm down!

    Like


  256. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 23:23:58 therighttoparty

    “now calm down”….why assume he’s angry? the banter between jasmin and mr. charles is somewhat tactless and amusing!

    and i agree that Halle berry is NOT the best looking black woman.

    Like


  257. @therighttoparty

    There’s been profanity traded here (which as you say you find amusing) and you’re only concerned with my contribution to ask someone to calm down?? Jeez..

    Like


  258. on Sun Dec 6th 2009 at 23:46:22 Menelik Charles

    MerriMay:

    Why don’t YOU point people out to Mr Queens blog, refute your behaviour that’s clear to everyone here to see.

    Menelik replied:

    You brought up Mr Queens. The onus is on YOU to prove your assertion! My conscious is clear. I attack no one. It is impossible to locate any post in which I have attacked anyone! Vigorous defence, perhaps, but never, ever do I attack a fellow human being.

    MerriMay said:

    You started calling her ‘Sista’,to which she told you to refrain, then you persist rather patronizingly by calling her ‘missy’.

    Jasmin said:

    And I am going to WARN you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again

    Menelik said:

    this was a threat MERRIMAY! Missy was my response. Not exactly a threat, is it!

    MerriMay said:

    Tell me Menelik, at which point did you not understand her discomfort at you calling her that??

    Menelik replied:

    and at which point did you not empathise with my discomfort at being threatened prior to calling her missy?

    Anyway, I realise that you are far from even-handed here. I have threatened no one here. Imagine if I did? Imagine if I told them to wallow in shit because I was caught in a blatant?

    She NEVER mentioned Black women and white men, remember? Those phantom words I magically placed in her mouth?

    I believe in sticking to the point as far as is possible which is why I quote what people say here, be they friend or foe.

    There is simply no need for this negro male to attack anyone when their own words will condemn them, if need be!

    Anyway, it is clear that we are not going to see-to-eye and that, truth, logic and plain honesty, will not reign supreme at this point.

    So I’m bailing out here. It is the decent thing to do. Thanks for your time.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  259. Halle berry is beautiful, but very hyped up. But then so are some white women such as Megan Fox. I also though lela rochon was the prettiest in Boomerang. But now looking at recent pics, hall berry looks younger and prettier.

    Like


  260. Menelik,

    Answering a question has nothing to do with somebody’s worth. Aren’t you answering every question posed to you?

    Yes, it was a low blow, and even you admitted that it was sarcasm. Well, Menelik, what was the logic in making that sarcastic statement? Aren’t you worth more than that?

    Like


  261. MNIMN, I thought “The Color Complex” was pretty good, considering how old it is.

    When I think “light-skinned”, I think of someone who is never actually brown, even when tanned in the sun. (So, Halle Berry wouldn’t count as light-skinned, but I think Beyonce might.) That probably jibes with research that shows only 10% of blacks are light-skinned. Yet, when you look at “light-skinned” groups on Facebook or people who claim to be light-skinned, half of them look like me! It makes me think that people want the “status” of being light-skinned, not the skin itself, so they are really hung up on the label. It’s like a new form of passing, oddly.

    Like


  262. Wait, maybe Halle would count…ha, I’m confusing myself, but if I could think of better real-life examples (meaning people I’ve seen both tanned and untanned) then maybe I could explain better. Basically, shades of tan = light-skinned, shades of brown = medium or dark-skinned. That’s a really simplistic way of looking at it, but it’s my general heuristic for determining whether I’d call someone “light-skinned” or not.

    Like


  263. on Tue Dec 8th 2009 at 05:17:58 mynameismyname

    Jasmin,

    “The Color Complex” seemed biased to me. They didn’t really explore the varied experiences of black women who are perceived as “dark skinned”. But it is a rare book on the topic of black American colorism.

    The best media documentation that I’ve seen on the topic would be Kathe Sandler’s documentary “A Question of Color”. Sandler, a product of an interracial parentage (her father is white), is a black-idenitified woman who looks extremely close to white. In the film, she interviews a wide range of black Americans from a wide range of locations (Tuskegee, Alabama to New York City) about their experiences with the “issue of color.” It’s a very interesting and well-balanced look on the age-old issue.

    Be warned that it was released in 1993, so there’s high top fades and other examples of bad early ’90s fashion. LOL. Despite the fact that it is a bit dated, the viewpoints are still very relevant.

    I would heavily recommend it!

    It’s funny, I actually stumbled across a “light skinned” group on Facebook by accident once. It was hilarious! I notice that even in real-life, many black folks (mainly women) like calling themselves “light skinned” even when they are clearly not! I agree with you in that it seems as if these individuals view being seen as “light skinned” as some type of status. Which it isn’t. Well, at least, to the racist white cop (or me)…it’s not! LOL.

    Each person measures what is “light skinned” for a black person differently. I agree with you though. Light skinned black to me is white skinned, tannish or yellow-ish brown. Anything that doesn’t fit that criteria is fairly dark to me.

    Per Beyonce/Halle’s complexions, do know that most light skinned black women in the business are usually bronzed and tanned to look darker in their media depicitions. They are almost always much lighter in person. Beyonce, Faith Evans, Chante Moore, Rihanna, Tisha Campbell and Alicia Keys, for example, are almost as white as a ghost, in person!!

    Like


  264. on Tue Dec 8th 2009 at 05:24:13 mynameismyname

    Also, Jasmine, the 10% figure (in terms of how many black people can be considered light skinned) defintely correlates with reality.

    For every “light skinned” black American I’ve seen, there were 9 darker ones.

    This may account for some of the light skin fetishism/favoritism among many black Americans. Lighter skin is less common. But then again, one can say the same about someone who is jet black-complexioned.

    Like


  265. Seems all the confusion here stems from the lack of appreciation of the meaning of “Black”. When we, black people, in Africa say “black people” we do not mean dark skinned people…we mean 100% Africa, 100% unmixed with other races…and 100% Ubuntu. That said, in America, and the rest of the Western world, black is generalized to cover anyone who is not white and has some African ethnicity in heir history/bloodline.
    If you look at all the so called ‘most beautiful’ black women…none of them fit our (African) definition of us (blacks), they are mixed race individuals born of mixed parents who most likely, and quite often have white heritage. None of the women covered on this blog are blacks as per African blackness…they are mixed race mulatos.

    Like


  266. Abagond, I think that’s just an unimpressive photo of Halle. I think she look better with long hair. You can’t say she doesn’t look sultry here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Cvo4jwbe8wE/SSz5PJEMqAI/AAAAAAAABvI/BOi0idUxKVU/s1600-h/halle_berry_1.jpg

    Like


  267. Hmmm, then again flipping back between your photo and the one I just posted, it’s obvious she’s had some nose and eye work done.

    Like


  268. Mynameismyname,

    Sorry, I never even saw your comments! This thread didn’t pop up in the “Recent Comments” list until today, and I usually stop going back to them after a couple of days.

    I will look for that movie–it sounds interesting!

    10% is definitely few, but I think since so many people self-label themselves as light-skinned the numbers are inflated to seem higher. Interesting how jet-black doesn’t get the same treatment, hmm?

    I would love to read a book or see a movie about the millions of “dark-skinned” Black women who aren’t “pretty for a dark-skinned girl”, sitting at home without a date, or wishing they were light-skinned. My friends and I are just waiting to be interviewed. 🙂

    Like


  269. Halle is only considered pretty because she is half-white

    Halle’s a lot more than “half white”. I’d say closer to 3/4ths, myself.

    Like


  270. Halle looks black to me, didnt’ even know she was half-white when I first saw her at all…but I agree she’s not the most beautiful “black” woman

    Like


  271. “When I think “light-skinned”, I think of someone who is never actually brown, even when tanned in the sun. (So, Halle Berry wouldn’t count as light-skinned, but I think Beyonce might.) ”
    what is with peopel saying beyonce is lightskinned to me, she is just brown. Going by most of her pictures she looks brown to me. Alicia keys to me is light skinned. http://blogs.wayne.edu/angelique/files/2009/04/beyonce-knowles-stars-300a101006.jpg

    Like


  272. nothing wrong with light-skinned, but to me its overplayed in the media, brown skin shimmers like none other, its gorgeous.

    Like


  273. Maria:

    I have deleted several long-winded comments on what Latino means. Not that there is anything wrong with that topic in and of itself, but it has nothing to do with the threads on Halle Berry and Tiger Woods where you have posted these comments.

    You are coming dangerously close to my definition of a spammer.

    Please review my comment policy:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/

    Like


  274. Menelik,

    I looked up reaction formation. Very interesting….

    Like


  275. on Tue Jan 5th 2010 at 21:32:23 Menelik Charles

    @Shani,

    I’m glad you found the phrase interesting. Perhaps you’d like to consider it in light of Abagond’s recent survey on the most attractive male post.

    I’m mean, an Asian gentleman has romped home with a majority of the votes! Not Black men! Not mixed-raced men! Not white men, either but one of maybe two Asian men mentioned!

    Consider, if you will, the fact that both Black women and Asian men are deemed the least attractive dating candidates (rightly or wrongly) and take into account who largely Black women here have voted numero uno of men.

    The phrase is REACTION FORMATION.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  276. on Tue Jan 5th 2010 at 22:52:37 It's all pink inside

    I don’t know about you but Gabriel Union is smokin hot! I can’t stop looking/thinking about her.

    Like


  277. ^^^ Interesting handle. 😉

    Like


  278. I’m going to leave the color discussion alone. I’ll just say that as a brown skinned girl (or dark skinned depending on who you talk to) with long hair my sister and I have been bewildering anomalies since . . . as long as I can remember. A lot of expectations and assumptions go into skin color . . . for the ignorant.

    @It’s all: I’m a heterosexual female and I agree . . . maybe not about the thinking. lol She’s amazing looking. However, I’ve loved Gabrielle Union since I was like 12/13 when “Bring It On” came out. She was a brown skin girl w/ dimples and (what I thought) long hair. Pre-teen me said “Yay! Someone like me!

    @Menelik
    Consider, if you will, the fact that both Black women and Asian men are deemed the least attractive dating candidates (rightly or wrongly) and take into account who largely Black women here have voted numero uno of men.

    I suggest you read the comments on that one. Probably not the best example for your argument.

    Like


  279. Menelik,

    I was very surprised Oh Ji ho won, but it was said there was a link to another site where outsiders could have voted to skew the results, but you do have a point in relating it to the “most gorgeous man” results.

    Like


  280. I just got off a blog showing halle berry with her hair curly, not flatironed. And some of the comments are ridiculous. One person posted a comment that said, “Now she just looks like a regular black girl.” As if something is wrong with looking black. I remember when she was pregnant over a year ago and she had her long hair and went out with it curly and not flat ironed and there were some comments about her looking too black. So to the person who said that what whites see in Halle is her white beauty, you are correct based on the blogs that I’ve read about how she looks when she doesn’t straighten her hair. It seems as if when Halle shows her blackness (as in curly hair) it seems to offend some white people. I guess they would be offended after putting her on a pedestal for her to turn around and slap them in the face with her “blackness.” LOL

    Like


  281. on Sun Jan 10th 2010 at 05:27:09 leaveumthinking

    Halle Berry is pretty but I cant say she is the most beautiful woman in the world. So far Vanity is the most beautiful woman I have ever seen.

    Like


  282. on Mon Jan 11th 2010 at 12:40:05 Menelik Charles

    Shani said:

    It seems as if when Halle shows her blackness (as in curly hair) it seems to offend some white people. I guess they would be offended after putting her on a pedestal for her to turn around and slap them in the face with her “blackness.”

    Menelik replies:

    Sista Shani, the notion of reaction formation still holds water here. The point is NOT that Halle Berry is too Black but that white people are TOO white i.e. Halle Berry “looking Black” makes them feel white…or uncomfortable.

    Anything which makes whites feel uncomfortable in their whiteness is rejected, marginalised or discriminated against. Cinderella & the Ugly Sisters is a near perfect example of all these factors in play.

    If Cinderella was a real person, she’d suffer from an inferiority complex on account of her mistreatment. The Ugly Sisters envied Cinderella and attempted to mimic here natural beauty with dramatic results (see the various artistic images of the dreadful duo).

    Remember, of all the races of women white women seek to mimic most, dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women come out on top!

    Thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  283. on Mon Jan 11th 2010 at 12:43:21 Menelik Charles

    @Shani

    you couldn’t give me the link for the blog on Halle Berry, could you?

    thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  284. http://justjared.buzznet.com/2010/01/05/halle-berry-sports-a-new-hairstyle/

    I posted the link to the most recent one. If you type in “halle berry curly do” or “halle berry curly fro” into the search engine a bunch of blogs will come up.

    Are you saying that “feeling white” is their insecurity? If so, then is systematic racism used as a defense mechanism?

    Like


  285. Wow for years i’ve battled with this issue. First of all when i tried to talk to people about it they seem to just look at me like what the hell is she talking about. Or u get the u’re just jealous line.

    Im in a totally different culture but i’ve known from a very small age the “power” of being light skinned and having eurocentric features. Black people treated u differently and white people treat u differently.

    I always said that the black girls portrayed in the media never really represent a true afrocentric black woman to me. Firstly I wanna say that Halle Berry’s nose is straight as hell and she’s as close to white as any black woman i know.

    When i see a dark skinned sista with non-relaxed hair, no weave, a broad nose and thick lips in the media then i will say i see a black beauty. No offense meant, but we’ve been conditioned to think that mixed and closest thing to white is what is beautiful in black people.

    By the way i live in Jamaica where being a browning, is a big deal and right now there’s an issue in our country where the women are constantly bleaching to have a lighter skin. I hate what slavery has done to our race and im dying for our real emancipation to come. But most of all im sorry for our black men who seem to gravitate the most to the near white features and the white ladies.

    Like


  286. that’s my say

    Like


  287. on Wed Jan 13th 2010 at 09:00:24 Menelik Charles

    Shani said:

    Are you saying that “feeling white” is their insecurity? If so, then is systematic racism used as a defense mechanism?

    Menelik replied:

    yes, white people are insecure in their whiteness, which they percieve as unhealthy and lacking colour. What they’ve done over the centuries (particularly to captive populations like slaves) is convince people of colour that THEY are lacking in whiteness…which is impossible since whiteness itself is an ABSENCE or lack of colour.

    The means by which white men have promoted the ‘beauty’ and superiority of whiteness has come in the form of the white female. Their image haunts Black women externally (i.e. via the mass media) and internally (i.e. via the elevation within Black society of light-skinned females like Halle Berry and Beyonce).

    The pain dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women feel is every bit as real as that felt by Cinderella who was made to feel worthless by those who, in reality, felt WORTH LESS than she did!

    But ultimately, Black women’s pain is based on a false premise; the premise being that white people percieve dark-skin, kinky hair and negroid feature as repulsive. No amount of snide racial remarks can convince me otherwise. It is merely a reaction formation necessary to make themselves feel comfortable in their own whiteness…which they sub-consciously loath!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  288. Thanks for your reply, Menelik.

    Like


  289. I don’t think Halle looks like her mother. She might look like her white relatives, but not her mother. Her mother isn’t an attractive woman, I must add. On the other hand, Halle isn’t ugly, but there’s something, I don’t know… Generic? – about her. She is pretty, but her face lacks personality.

    Angela Bassett is the most beautiful black woman in the world (if you ask me).

    As crazy as this sounds (“whites are insecure in their skin, which they percieve as unhealthy and lacking colour”), it could be true. I know I often feel insecure about shade of my skin. Since there’s nothing I can do about it, I don’t think about it much. Still, I can’t help finding dark skinned people more beautiful.

    Like


  290. ^^^
    I agree. Halle’s mother isn’t attractive at all. Halle is much better looking than her. Good example of a little chocolate milk powder changing the flavor of the entire glass of milk! LOL.

    And yes, Berry is obviously attractive and does have some modest appeal (as I noted above, a while ago) but overall she’s “nothing THAT special”. Perhaps, she does have a generic quality about her. She’s an ex-beauty queen after all.

    Angela Bassett, on the other hand, is a classic beauty. She’s completely natural with it. There’s such a regal, timeless quality to her that goes far beyond her looks. She totally outclasses Berry on every level. There is absolutely no competition behind her and Berry.

    Like


  291. I remember Halle when she appeared on some tv show in the late 80’s called Living Dolls. She definitely looks different now. She had a nose job for sure.

    Like


  292. It’s hard to find that picture of Halle attractive because of that muffin hairstyle. Even her makeup is so 80s style and outdated in that pic it’s impossible for me to just look at her facial features without being distracted. Her recent pictures look WAY more attractive.

    Like


  293. Halle looks much better with shorter hair. She carries it very well.

    Like


  294. I think Halle is “cute” more than anything else. I also believe that she is considered so beautiful because she is bi-racial with the emphasis being on her “white” side.
    Ebony magazine has held her up as the standard as beauty for years.

    Like


  295. “The pain dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women feel is every bit as real as that felt by Cinderella who was made to feel worthless by those who, in reality, felt WORTH LESS than she did! ”

    Really?! I don’t agree with that one bit. I’m not dark but have have experienced the “Cinderella” syndrome by others who put me down because they feel worthless. That has nothing to do with dark or light. It has to do with others inferiority complexes.

    Halle, to me, is undeniable pretty. I’ve noticed that if you have a heavier look, you are what is desireable, at least on this blog. She has a very soft, feminine look.

    Like


  296. I think Halle has one of those “average pretty girl” looks which makes her so beautiful in the eyes of many. Angela Bassett is absolutely gorgeous, so stunning that she may seem, to many men, completely out of their league. Halle is plainer (though not plain), so she’s better suited to the “girl next door” vibe. We love to uphold that which is average as the standard, because then we (as women) can believe that level is attainable.

    Like


  297. Halle does have “girl next door” vibe. At least she had- this pic from the 80s is cute.

    On the other hand, I don’t know how majority of black men feel about Halle. Do they find her stunning as much as white men do?

    As an actress, she is “just ok”. She can act, but she is more average than excellent, if you ask me.

    Like


  298. on Thu Jan 21st 2010 at 17:27:10 someonesomewhere

    ^^
    I agree, Jasmin.

    I think Lauren London has the same kind of appeal: that kind of “around the way, girl-next-door” type of cuteness. Although, all around, she’s pretty plain…like Halle.

    Angela’s beauty, on the other hand, is almost intimidating. For many men, a woman is a “GOT DAMN!”-type of beautiful will seems out of their league and therefore they don’t approach her in fear of being shut down. A lot of women don’t really know how insecure men truly are.

    Like


  299. on Thu Jan 21st 2010 at 17:28:06 someonesomewhere

    ^^^
    The above post is by me, Mynameismyname. Don’t know why it came up under another screen name. Sorry.

    Like


  300. Mira,

    Every man, black or white, is different when it comes to who and what he finds beautiful. So none of us can truly know if a majority of men find ANY woman to be beautiful. We can guess, we can hypothesize but we will never really know.

    I can opine that I think that a lot of the white men who cite Berry as being “so beautiful” do so in a very politically correct way. As if they are trying to demonstrate that because they can call a famous black woman beautiful it shows that they are “not (that) racist!”. That mindset is so sickening.

    I won’t critique Berry’s onstage or offstage persona too much because of the backlash I got received earlier in this post but I can agree that she’s not an actress of a very high caliber. I think the shoddy roles that she gets demonstrates this. A lot of times if you’re a hack actress, you get hack work. The Scorseses and Coppolas aren’t going to have you ruin thier work! LOL.

    Like


  301. Of course; people are individuals. We all have our personal preferences.

    But various lists show men- particularly white men- find Halle Berry really attractive. I don’t know if they include her on the list just to have a token black woman there.

    In any case, white men do find her incredibly attractive. At least they say so. Maybe Halle is praised for her white features.

    I asked about black men, because they might see her differently. I don’t know if they consider her that attractive.

    @mynameismyname

    I can opine that I think that a lot of the white men who cite Berry as being “so beautiful” do so in a very politically correct way. As if they are trying to demonstrate that because they can call a famous black woman beautiful it shows that they are “not (that) racist!”.

    This. Personal preference aside, but it does look like many white men try to put at least one (but only one) black woman on their “hottest women” list, to show how anti racist they are, I guess.

    Like


  302. “I can opine that I think that a lot of the white men who cite Berry as being “so beautiful” do so in a very politically correct way. ”

    I think most white men cite as as “the most beautiful black woman” because they don’t know of any others to name beacuse she’s the only one that is fed to mainstream white america again and again. It’s like she’s the “it” girl version of a black woman. When Whitney Houston was in her prime, she was “it,” to alot of men too. Atleast Whitney had talent to back it up though. I love Whitney, still do and always will, she’s a true, classic talent. Especially compared to the crap we got coming out these days. With all due respect, Rihanna to me (sweet girl and sorry about her trauma and all) she isn’t all that to me in terms of looks. She is cute I’ll give that one, but I don’t know that I would call her gorgeous or to be honest. It just like white america puts a seal of approval on certain black women and then white men tend to follow suit on that.

    Like


  303. This. Personal preference aside, but it does look like many white men try to put at least one (but only one) black woman on their “hottest women” list, to show how anti racist they are, I guess.

    yeah, I had to purchase a copy of maxim once for a project and I looked through it and the only black woman that was in there was Lauren London. The rest were all white and I was suprised because they were truly truly thing. Like real thing. I always knew most white men had a preference for thin bodies but wow they were thin and scantily clad. In contrast in black men’s magazines, they have far more than one or a few non-black women. Even if the majority are black, their number of non-black women far exceeds that of the Maxim, I believe. Why is that?? Are bm innately more accepting of beauty? I doubt it…has anyone noticed this what’s this about?

    Like


  304. But various lists show men- particularly white men- find Halle Berry really attractive. I don’t know if they include her on the list just to have a token black woman there.

    That’s exactly it. If the lists were all white, they would look racist. But in a competition between Halle and a white woman touted to be beautiful (e.g. Angelina Jolie, Scarlett Johansson), the white woman wins.

    In any case, white men do find her incredibly attractive. At least they say so. Maybe Halle is praised for her white features.

    Yes. The most beautiful black woman to white people/men is the one with the most stereotypical Eurocentric features. Beyonce has joined the ranks as well; I heard today that Beyonce is a “beauty icon amongst the ranks of Marilyn Monroe.” Yeah, seriously.

    Like


  305. Though I’m not a Halle fan and prefer Angela Bassett in terms of personality, I don’t view her as average. Angela has more of a harsher or masculine look, to me. Halle has more softer lines facially. This is not because one is lighter than the other because they are not THAT far off in shade. She does have beautiful skin, though. I think her talent trumps her appearance.

    Halle is not the most beautiful in the world, but who is?

    As an entertainer, or a person in general, what’s is wrong with having a universal look? I think that is great! Whitney Houston was/is absolutely gorgeous – and no one can say it’s because she’s dark OR light – she’s in between. She is just a classic beauty.

    Lauren London and Gabrielle Union are very girl-next-door. But what’s wrong with having a very sweet, innocent and beautiful look?

    Like


  306. I am starting to believe Halle’s publicist is feeding all of this “most beautiful woman” hype to the media. At any rate, Halle does have a generic look. No one feature stands out on her face, which makes her average but pretty. Women can relate to her and she looks like someone you can be related to.

    For example, how many times have you heard about a light skin woman with short hair being told that she looks like Halle. I’ve heard it numerous times (about other women) which makes her look relatable because women can strive to look like her. On the other hand, women like Sophia Loren and Pam Grier in their prime, Kenya Moore, Angelina Jolie, Lauryn Hill before she went crazy all have a unique, special type of beauty that most women would not be able to achieve which makes their beauty sort of intimidating to some women and maybe even men. Halle’s beauty is not as intimidating. That’s my analysis for today.

    Like


  307. Islandgirl,

    People say I’m the “girl next door” so of course I love that look. 😛 I just think us “girls next door” would have to put in extra effort (for a special occasion or something) to look “stunning”, whereas someone like Angela Bassett or Tyra Banks wouldn’t.

    Like


  308. Jasmin,

    I don’t think you would! You’re naturally pretty and that is a lot more desireable, to me. You’ll probably age really well too with your innocent, fresh looks. I love the girl-next-door look!

    Like


  309. Islandgirl,

    That’s what I tell all my friends! Over the summer I went to a mini-middle school reunion party, and everyone says I look the same as I did in 8th grade (just more body)! You look really young too–I’m pretty sure we aren’t the same age but I would guess we were just by looking at you. I always tell people we’ll look young and fresh while they get old and wrinkly. 🙂

    Like


  310. i don’t get the girl-next-door thing. What makes someone girl next-door material? I don’t know why maybe its because I just don’t know what they’re talking about. I just think Halle is pretty, I don’t see her as girl next door though. Just pretty.

    Like


  311. There’s nothing wrong in “girl next door look”. I must admit I’m more of a tomboy, but girl next door vibe is sometimes more feminine than “famme fatale” look.

    Halle is a beautiful woman and I do believe one of the secrets of her success is the fact men find her attractive, while women can identify with her. A friend of mine looks a bit like her, and she is a white girl. There’s a Serbian TV host, nicknamed “Serbian Halle Berry” because she looks (a bit) like the famous actress.

    On the other hand, it is true white men tend to include Halle, or maybe Beyonce or Rihanna- but only them. Yes, this could partly be because there aren’t that many black celebrities white people know about- which is also an interesting subject to think about (why aren’t there more black celebrities?) But then again, I can’t help noticing tokenism when it comes to this kind of lists. For some reason, Halle Barry looks like an acceptable choice for a token girl.

    (White) women are also guilty of this kind of tokenism. They seem to put Denzel Washington on their lists often, and on those lists he’s usually the only black guy.

    Like


  312. The “girl next door” look is very appealing! Just as much as the “vixen” or the “classic beauty”.

    Of course, Halle’s PR people trump up the whole “most beautiful woman” angle! LOL. Just like Brad Pitt and George Clooney’s people feed the “sexiest man in America” angle to the mainstream media. Shoot, it’s not uncommon for some male stars’ PR team to feed shirtless pics to the press. (I’m looking at you, Mr. McCoughnay!). Remember these entertainers’ job is to entertain, so they work hard to give us what we want!

    Rihanna never was that attractive to me. And she’s not a “sweet girl” in real life but that is a whole different story.

    White men WHO ARE NOT INTO BLACK WOMAN “prefer” black woman who look more white. Why wouldn’t they? They want the women who they are not into (black women) to look like the ones who they are into (white women). Now, for the white men who like or are open to black women, it’s the opposite effect.

    Natasha was so right. These white editors throw Halle, Beyonce or whatever vapid black “it” girl for a little PC, ” not-too-different” variety but don’t fool yourself, they are not hardly the first choice.

    Mira,
    It’s hard to say whether “black men” feel the same exact way about HB as these white admirers you mentioned. See, there’s too many different types of black men. Some share the same Eurocentric standard of beauty as many (or most) of their white counterparts. Yet, these types of black men would most likely be more interested in a “Kim Kardashian” than a “Halle Berry” anyway. Some have a more universal idea of beauty, hence the multiracial makeup of black mens magazines. Some have a more “round the way” idea of beauty, hence why the Serenas, Fantasias, Monicas, etc. give a lot of love from the “brothers”. Of course, there’s many other varities of black male ideas of beauty. But they are very diverse, nonetheless.

    Like


  313. @mynameismyname

    Natasha was so right. These white editors throw Halle, Beyonce or whatever vapid black “it” girl for a little PC, ” not-too-different” variety

    I am afraid this is true. The key is: attractive, but not-too-different. They want familiar stuff, with a little PC thrown in. On the other hand, I can’t help but think many of those lists are genuine: Halle does seem to have something that makes her attractive.

    My question about black men, however, was because I assumed most of the lists I know of were made by white people- or majority of white people.

    I wasn’t trying to put all black men into a single category, nor to imply they are all the same and have same preferences. (I hope it didn’t sound like I was doing it). I was just wondering if Halle would top lists made by, say, magazine targeted to black men. There must be lists like that somewhere on the net, but I am not sure how to find them.

    Like


  314. Mira:

    Smooth magazine lists the top 100 women at the end of each year. Mostly video vixens and rap guys’ girlfriends, mostly black and Latina women. Here is the top 11 for 2009:

    1. Maliah
    2. Deelishis*
    3. Angel Lola Luv*
    4. Vida Guerra*
    5. Coco (married to Ice-T)
    6. Melyssa Ford*
    7. Esther Baxter*
    8. Jessica Rabbit
    9. Amber Rose
    10. Nikki B.
    11. Buffie the Body*

    * = has a post on this blog

    The editor of that magazine, by the way, is a black woman.

    Here are the top ten women on this blog according to hits over the past 30 days:

    1. Toccara Jones
    2. Bria Myles
    3. Lauren London
    4. Vilayna Lasalle
    5. Jill Marie Jones
    6. Kenya Moore
    7. Adriana Lima
    8. Omotola
    9. Nia Long
    10. Melyssa Ford
    11. Deelishis

    Deelishis gets almost ten times more hits than Halle Berry.

    More on Smooth magazine here:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/smooth-magazine/

    Like


  315. I see. Thanks for the info.

    I don’t think white people even know about many of these women. Plus, some are way to “thick” for an average white guy taste.

    Like


  316. lol at Jasmin! That’s good, though. The thing that I like about girl-next-door looks is that are naturally sweet/innocent looking, but can be versitile. If you want to vamp it up, line your eyes a little heavier, more mascara and throw on a darker lipstick. Put more body in your hair, and you are transformed into a vixen.

    But when you are caught, and want to get out of it, wipe off all of the makeup, bat your eyes and they are putty in your hands.lol

    Peanut,

    Girl next door is wholesome and innocent look. For example, Melissa Ford would have a hard time pulling off this look. J Lo could couldn’t pull it off either, though she tries with paler, softer makeup.

    Growing up, I was always under the impression that the epitome of attractiveness for women/girls is having the combination of innocence with and sexy. I guess I was wrong.

    All types of looks are good – but this is my favorite.

    Like


  317. i guess i look too innocent or that’s what people tell me. i’m really not though.

    Like


  318. Mira,

    I get you!

    Abagond’s list of the women who get the most hits on this very blog illustrate my point. That pretty much show the range of various black male tastes. It’s more reprensative of that reality than the Smooth magazine list, I think. The ladies on the Smooth list are pretty trashy. A lot of guys would “get” with them, but not take them home to meet their mama!

    Islandgirl,

    I agree. Melyssa Ford has a look that’s too sexual to give off a geniune “girl next door” vibe. Same with J.Lo. You also have to consider that neither Ford or Lopez are particulary attractive without makeup. J.Lo used to get her makeup retouched every four hours and traveled with an army of hair stylists so lets not use her as a symbol of TRUE beauty. Like Halle and every other celeb that gets mentioned on here, Ford/J.Lo’s “beauty” is created. You’re looking at the wonderful work of her makeup artists, stylists, hair technicans and airbrushers when you look at her “pretty” pics.

    Like


  319. @mynameismyname:

    You also have to consider that neither Ford or Lopez are particulary attractive without makeup. J.Lo used to get her makeup retouched every four hours and traveled with an army of hair stylists so lets not use her as a symbol of TRUE beauty. Like Halle and every other celeb that gets mentioned on here, Ford/J.Lo’s “beauty” is created. You’re looking at the wonderful work of her makeup artists, stylists, hair technicans and airbrushers when you look at her “pretty” pics.

    I get what you’re saying. A lot of so-called beauties are manufactured. I know of women like these celebrities and they look hot/sexy…but with all that make-up and whatnot. Once the make-up is off, it’s another story. To me, a beautiful woman is beautiful without all those enhancements. Too many Hollywood beauties are “fake”.

    Like


  320. Mynameismyname said:

    “Abagond’s list of the women who get the most hits on this very blog illustrate my point. That pretty much show the range of various black male tastes. It’s more reprensative of that reality than the Smooth magazine list, I think. The ladies on the Smooth list are pretty trashy. A lot of guys would “get” with them, but not take them home to meet their mama!”

    I agree with that: that the list of women with the most hits on this blog seems much truer-to-life than the Smooth list or the Beyonce-Berry-Rihanna Black Beauty triumvirate.

    Kenya Moore is a good example: neither Smooth nor Hollywood is going to push her in front of our eyeballs – she probably will not model for Smooth and has no film coming out. But that does not mean that there are not plenty of people – like me – who think she is way better looking than Halle Berry or some video vixen du jour.

    Like


  321. @abagond:

    I would kill to look like Kenya Moore. In fact, many of the beautiful bw posted on your blog are super gorgeous. I would kill just to look like them.

    Like


  322. You are beautiful the way you are.

    Like


  323. @Mira:

    You are beautiful the way you are.

    Aww, thank you. You’re so sweet. 😀

    Okay, so I’m exaggerating, but I would certainly love to look like these beautiful ladies.

    Like


  324. yeah Leigh, you are very pretty.

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  325. i have a question though, why is it it seems more women posts pictures on here than men??

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  326. @peanut:

    yeah Leigh, you are very pretty.

    Thank you! I wouldn’t know it since a lot of people think I resemble Lucy Liu. Grrr.

    i have a question though, why is it it seems more women posts pictures on here than men??

    Maybe men are a bit picture shy. Who knows? Anyway, I was hesitant about posting a pic of myself in the first place. Lots of crazies out there.

    Like


  327. I just want to leave a little comment to say THANK YOU for this awesome discussion. I’m just some random white girl (there are varying shades of white too!) who found this blog entry and I read every single comment (no lie!). Unlike the comments on most blogs, yours were all really thoughtful and I loved getting your insight into a topic I rarely think about. I love the varying opinions because they were all insightful.

    I’ll also just leave this little bit of info: I hadn’t heard of 90% of the celebrities mentioned here – but I can say the same about white celebrities because I’m one of those insane people who never watches TV or reads magazines. I checked out Google Images for many of those mentioned on the Smooth list and list for this blog based on hits and was surprised at how sexual all the images were.

    Thanks again for an enlightening discussion that took up a great deal of my day. You guys rock!

    Like


  328. @leigh204

    Thank you! I wouldn’t know it since a lot of people think I resemble Lucy Liu. Grrr.

    I don’t think you look like Lucy Liu. At all. She is not an ugly woman, but I don’t think she’s pretty.

    You are a pretty girl. Actually, all the girls here are (well, at least those who display their images).

    @peanut

    i have a question though, why is it it seems more women posts pictures on here than men??

    This is interesting question. I have no idea. I take gravatar as any other forum avatar. For some reason, I always choose pictures of male celebrities I like for my forum avatars, including this one. That’s Gary Oldman in his younger days. I post on various blogs and I don’t feel comfortable sharing my pic, even though I have a few on my own blog. Guys do seem to be shy when it comes to posting their images. I wonder why.

    Like


  329. ooo abagond! i think you should do a post on latino men and black women. seriously, i get approached by more latino men than white and black. I think you should do a post on that. (has nothing to do with what anyone was talking about)

    Like


  330. Kenya Moore is gorgeous! I too, would kill to look like her. 🙂

    Like


  331. ^^^
    I would kill to GET WITH her. 🙂

    Like


  332. I agree with that: that the list of women with the most hits on this blog seems much truer-to-life than the Smooth list or the Beyonce-Berry-Rihanna Black Beauty triumvirate.

    Rihanna? Who is claiming her as a beauty? I mean, she’s not terrible looking, but what’s her appeal? Besides pale skin and a trendy haircut?

    Also, leigh, I agree that you are very pretty. I always think that every time I see a post of yours.

    Like


  333. @Natasha W:

    *blushes*

    Like


  334. I co-sign Natasha’s statement regarding Leigh.

    Like


  335. I just saw one of the most beautiful dark skin sistas I’ve ever seen working at a local DSW store. She’s be worthy of abagond’s black beauty of the day sight. I don’t like staring at people but I was turning my head completely as I was walking out the door. Yeah, not all beautiful black women are light skinned. I’d love to see the darker ones get more representation in the media.

    Like


  336. Natasha,

    Rihanna ain’t no universal beauty. LOL. It’s the mainstream media who has recently pushed her as some type of sex symbol. A lot of that has to do with her recent crossover success. She’s a “flavor of the month” so the sheep follow.

    Tulio,

    The most beautiful women are actually AROUND us, not in front of our eyes from magazine covers, TV shows, etc. That sighting at the DSW store is proof of that. Yet, it irks me that every time a black woman’s beauty is discussed, her specific complexion just has to be mentioned. Why? You don’t do it to white or other non-white women, so why color-catergorize black women like that? Is it just a cultural thing?

    Like


  337. I only mentioned her dark skin in light of the fact that we were discussing Beyonce, Halle Berry and Rihanna being held up as examples of beautiful black women.

    Like


  338. wow, Leigh you’re very popular.lol

    I would kill to look like Rachel, the host of Carribean Rhythms.

    She is another former pageant queen.

    Like


  339. @idlandgirl

    I can honestly say that all the women who put their images as avatars here are pretty. That includes you, too. And other girls. Guys, on the other hand, don’t like to post their photos. It’s interesting.

    But it makes me sad to see (I presume) healthy, beautiful, intelligent women who are not satisfied with their physical appearance. It’s all because of media. Even if you don’t buy white ideas of beauty, non-white celebrities you see on TV and magazines are celebrities. We are real women. Kenya Moore is a stunning woman, but girls, you are beautiful the way you are. If you were celebrities, people would want to look like you.

    I spent my teenage years wanting to look different, much different. It took me years to gain at least a little confidence. So I know how you feel.

    PS-Wanting more black celebrities is a good thing. I want the idea of black and other non-white women as unattractive to be challenged. And changed. But real women should never forget their beauty.

    Like


  340. I never found Rachel from BET to be that pretty. Her ditiziness made her even more unattractive to me.

    I agree, Mira, too many women or at least the women who comment on here, put too much emphasis on celebrity beauty. How many times do we have to tell you that most of that stuff isn’t real?

    Like


  341. Mira,

    Thanks for your comments! You seem very understanding. For me though, it’s not the media who brings me down. Actually it’s the opposite. Things are quite easy for me in regards to industry, but real, average people is who I’ve struggled with.

    Seems I could turn a modeling agencies head, but not black men. It’s weird. But it’s cool.:)

    I don’t know if I should go into detail, but it has been a struggle.

    How did you want to look different?

    nyname,

    Oh, I think Rachel is gooorgeouus! Always have. I love her coloring and she has such a pretty face. She glows.

    Ironically, I have never thought Keyna Moore was that attractive. She looks a little like Natalie Cole. I think she has a good image, maybe a good figure, nice hair and a pageant carriage. Which is all good.

    But I guess I base beauty on if someone could look good, naturally.

    Like


  342. I can honestly say that all the women who put their images as avatars here are pretty. That includes you, too. And other girls. Guys, on the other hand, don’t like to post their photos. It’s interesting.

    I agree, Mira. The women here are beautiful. It’s kind of odd, considering that all people can’t be goodlooking, right? :D. But Jasmin has a cute, fresh, spunky look, islandgirl has a certain mystique, and Lynette has a timeless, elegance.

    I do agree that the media is to blame. With the help of people who idolize the appearance of celebrities, it pushes this idea into women’s heads that whoever they are, whatever they look like, it is not enough. That they could always be improved and someone out there is outshining them.

    I agree, Mira, too many women or at least the women who comment on here, put too much emphasis on celebrity beauty. How many times do we have to tell you that most of that stuff isn’t real?

    mynameismyname, I try to tell people this! There is way too much plastic surgery, around the clock make-up and hair styling, top of the line trainers and personal stylists, and airbrushing for me to take celebrities’ appearances seriously and compare them to everyday people. Anyone, and I mean anyone, could look fabulous if they had all of those perks. And yet many everyday people surpass the beauty of celebrities, in my eyes.

    Like


  343. Things are quite easy for me in regards to industry, but real, average people is who I’ve struggled with.

    Seems I could turn a modeling agencies head, but not black men. It’s weird. But it’s cool.:)

    I don’t know if I should go into detail, but it has been a struggle.

    islandgirl, I’d like to hear more about this. Is it because you are thin?

    Like


  344. Lol, thanks you all, but I don’t dislike the way I look (far from it :-P). If I were badly burned in a fire and needed reconstructive surgery, I wouldn’t mind looking like Kenya Moore, but I don’t think I’m hideous or anything. I feel like we’re so primed in society to think self-criticism = self hatred that we can sometimes suppress people’s need for an outlet, even if it’s for something trivial. (I don’t consider this an outlet, but I’m guessing some do.)

    I hate my feet–they are hideous! But I don’t need a pity party or some hugs to stop me from totally hating myself. Let’s not be so quick to tell others how they feel/should feel about themselves.

    Like


  345. Note: I don’t hate myself…I realize that sentence doesn’t read well.

    Natasha,

    I love that you called me spunky! That picture is from 2 Christmases ago, I need to change it, but I forgot my Gravatar password. 😛

    Like


  346. @Jasmin,

    I wasn’t really talking about you personally, or trying imply you hate yourself. Is that how it sounded? Ouch.

    I simply wanted to say there’s nothing really special about celebrities… And that real women (like us) are beautiful the way they are. Maybe I took this too far. Now when I re-read my previous comments, it did sound a bit… annoying? Patronizing? It wasn’t my intention.

    Or maybe I am just harsh on myself; I know I had my share of low self esteem and this sort of situation remind me of it? Could be.

    @islandgirl

    How did you want to look different?

    I wanted to be taller, thinner and not this pale. It sounds trivial, and I guess it is. But tell this to my 15 year old self.

    Seems I could turn a modeling agencies head, but not black men. It’s weird. But it’s cool.:)

    I am sure there are some (black male) people who would find you- or any other thin black woman- more that attractive. Just because a woman doesn’t fit rigid beauty standards of her culture, there are still members of the same culture (and other cultures) who find her attractive. After all, it’s always better to be loved and admired by only one person- the person you love- than to be admired by everybody except the one you love.

    Like


  347. Mira,

    I don’t think you are annoying, lol. I just think some people (not anyone here in particular) want to say, “You’re beautiful, love yourself!”, but if a woman says she’s the finest thing ever, then she “thinks she’s all that.” So from some people it comes off patronizing, since they seem to get a kick out of having pity for others.

    New gravatar! Hopefully it shows up. 🙂

    Like


  348. Well, by re-reading what I wrote I realized my posts were a bit questionable. I still believe what I wrote (real life women should not think celebrities are that better looking); but using real life examples (this site’s visitors) wasn’t the smartest idea, I guess.

    PS-I still see the old gravatar.

    Like


  349. I know, it says it’ll take 5 or 10 minutes to change.

    Like


  350. I’d like to be about 2-3 inches taller than I am now. Other than that, I’m pretty satisfied with what I have. Still, Kenya Moore is gorgeous in my eyes. Yeah, she has all this maintenance stuff at her disposal, but I like how she looks. As Jasmin mentioned earlier, I wouldn’t mind looking like her.

    Like


  351. Jasmin,

    I love that picture! You’re even prettier than I thought.

    Like


  352. o.k., that might not read well. I meant I thought you were pretty before, but I think you are even moreso.

    Like


  353. @islandgirl:

    Aw, I think Jasmin knows what you mean. 😉 You’re also pretty, my dear.

    Like


  354. There is something irresistible about Kenya Moore, I admit it. I remember her in “Trois”. She’s such a beautiful woman. Definitely one of those “I wouldn’t mind looking like her”. I’m just saying I don’t like to think about celebrities that way. (On the other hand, I have no problems being attracted to male celebrities :D)

    Like


  355. Kenya Moore reminds me of Natalie Cole. Eerily so, actually.

    Like


  356. Lol, Islandgirl, I know what you meant. Thanks for the compliment!

    By the way, is your avatar picture a headshot? I know I’ve already told you, but I really like it! 🙂 Funny how I feel like I “know” so many of the regulars, even though we’ve never met!

    Like


  357. frustrated guy says,
    Shouldn’t the obvious white fanfare for Halle Berry be viewed as a positive sign? After all, it seems like not so long ago white people considered it taboo to publicly express attraction for any woman of African descent. Perhaps the success of Halle, Beyonce, and others should be regarded as a stage in the liberalization of beauty standards. Maybe the Kenya Moores of the world will start to gain international appreciation not so long from now too.

    laromana say,
    When American media/society STOPS LIMITING the expression of Black beauty to Halle/Beyonce maybe a larger diversity of Black women will be acknowledged for their beauty, too.

    Like


  358. yes i agree laramona, i want the chocolate sisters, the caramel sisters, the yellow skinned sisters, the milk chocolate sisters, the onyx colored, charcoal, ebony, peanut butter, butterscotch and all the different colors of bw to be represented in the medi, if we didnt’ favor only one group, then things would be much better for all people .

    Like


  359. o.k.

    Mira,
    Sorry that you thought that about yourself. I’m sure you looked totally different than your perception. Pale skin can be beautiful if you protect it. And from what I gather, you have a great figure. One that most men would like. It’s tough having these insecurities when your young because thats when your identity is formed.

    Natasha,

    To make a long story longer.lol In high school, I was teased mercilesly by a group of black girls. Told me that I was skinny, tooth pick, 12 year old, I ‘m not a real woman blah, blah, blah. Some black guys joined in which was even more hurtful. Really damaged my self-esteem. In college, everything changed. I entered a pageant and won and was successful in the pageant circuit. Several years later, became a NFL cheerleader and modeled in NYC. I found a world that was inviting and I was accepted. They treated me the exact opposite than what I was programmed to believe by those other people. So when I say that for me, it’s not the media or industry but average people that are harsh, that’s what I mean.

    (Some) black guys only reduce women into parts (which is normally a butt). So when you don’t measure up to that one part (or maybe two) they can be brutal. When I first viewed Abagond’s blog, it infuriated me because he reminded me of one of those guys. I can tell you all kinds of stories about Smooth Magazine and black urban lines that would disgust you. They fall into this category, too.

    Jasmin,

    Yes it is. And yes, it is funny how it seems we know each other.lol

    Like


  360. @ islandgirl

    Mira,
    Sorry that you thought that about yourself. I’m sure you looked totally different than your perception. Pale skin can be beautiful if you protect it. And from what I gather, you have a great figure. One that most men would like.

    This is also cultural. Trust me, men in my culture don’t find this figure appealing. Some do, of course, but majority don’t. Especially young men (and women), the one you have to be around while growing up (in school, for example).

    I have nice skin (eh, the skin itself, not its colour), but that’s mainly because I don’t use any cosmetic products and I stay away from the sun. I know it makes me pale, but I also look a bit younger. On a side note, I do believe white women tend to age worse than black women in part because of the sun; it makes your skin age faster.

    It’s tough having these insecurities when your young because thats when your identity is formed.

    This. It’s not really about how you look or what people think about you. I don’t particularly care if people like me or not, or find me beautiful or not. Still, the way people see you can shape your identity. Yes, even stupid things like being teased in school.

    (Some) black guys only reduce women into parts (which is normally a butt). So when you don’t measure up to that one part (or maybe two) they can be brutal.

    My experience says most of the men are like this (reducing women into parts). My culture likes thin women (no butt!) with large breasts. Since it’s usually impossible to have such a figure, they choose a girl to be thin, even if it means smaller breasts.

    When I first viewed Abagond’s blog, it infuriated me because he reminded me of one of those guys.

    And I was surprised to see a man celebrate thick women. You have to understand it’s not something I see in my culture, not at all. This only shows how you (well, me) can’t fully escape insecurities, even as a grown up, (reasonably) intelligent and mature woman.

    Like


  361. “White men WHO ARE NOT INTO BLACK WOMAN “prefer” black woman who look more white. Why wouldn’t they? They want the women who they are not into (black women) to look like the ones who they are into (white women). Now, for the white men who like or are open to black women, it’s the opposite effect.”

    I’m so sick of this.
    It sounds alot like the “if he wanted long hair and eurocentric features (wth is that anyways?) he would of chosen a white woman”.
    It’s like me saying, if I wanted a white man with dark hair and eyes, i’d go for a black man!

    Why does a man have to be with a dark skinned black woman with stereotypical black features to be genuin in his attraction for black women?
    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe most people prefer the ‘inbetween look’ in black women, and women in general? and is that so bad?
    Why do we have to be nasty to one person in order to uplift the other?
    And do you even realize when you do that, that you are shooting yourself in the foot?
    If you want to see more dark skinned black women in the entertainment industry, putting down lighter skinned black women is not the way to go.
    I am tired of the constant competition between darker and lighter skinned women.
    We are all black women at the end of the day, let’s support one another.

    Like


  362. @L

    It’s like me saying, if I wanted a white man with dark hair and eyes, i’d go for a black man!

    But isn’t… Isn’t that partly true? If one person has a “type” (preference), isn’t it logical for this type to include all the people, regardless of race, who share similar features?

    I do prefer dark haired, dark eyed men. I am not really into pale guys with blue and green eyes or blond hair. While I never met any black men (so I can’t judge based on personal experience), I do think I am attracted to them. Isn’t this logical for me, and not for a (white) woman who likes blond, blue eyed guys?

    On the other hand:

    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe most people prefer the ‘inbetween look’ in black women, and women in general? and is that so bad?

    I do believe it’s true. Hence all that “mixed people are sexy” stereotype. Mixed people often have “in between look”, and so do light skinned black people or dark Caucasian people. I think that’s the look that many people consider to be very, very attractive.

    Like


  363. “Why do we have to be nasty to one person in order to uplift the other?
    And do you even realize when you do that, that you are shooting yourself in the foot?
    If you want to see more dark skinned black women in the entertainment industry, putting down lighter skinned black women is not the way to go.
    I am tired of the constant competition between darker and lighter skinned women.
    We are all black women at the end of the day, let’s support one another.”

    L, I couldn’t agree with you more! Putting one group of people down is not how you progress.

    Also, how many black men like white women who have more ‘sterotypically’ black characteristics? Kim Kardashian, all the white women in Smooth Magazine, Angelina Jolie (because of her lips) ect.

    Like


  364. …I do believe it’s true. Hence all that “mixed people are sexy” stereotype. Mixed people often have “in between look”

    My SO always reminds me that studies have found that mixed race and facial/physical symmetry correlate, thus those of mixed race are more likely to be considered physically attractive. As well as genetic diversity increasing health. He thinks our kids will be superhuman. 😀

    islandgirl,

    Yours is an interesting story. I tend to find thin women very beautiful and have only recently discovered they also suffer from body issues caused by negative reactions to their figure. It seems no one is immune to these kind of insecurities.

    Like


  365. Oh, here’s one study, for anyone who is interested:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200512/mixed-race-pretty-face

    Like


  366. I don’t know, Angelina looks like Jon Voight to me. Especially her lips. He is her father if you ask me.

    Like


  367. Islandgirl,

    It’s unfortunate that you had to deal with such pettiness when you were younger, but I have a lot of respect for you for not letting those experiences make you negative towards all thicker women, darker-skinned women, etc. Most people would use that to generalize their prejudices toward another group, so I think it takes a lot of maturity to not let the actions of a few color your thoughts.

    Side note: You were an NFL cheerleader and pageant queen? Details, please! (If you feel like sharing.) That sounds so exciting and fun. I’ve never had enough interest or talent to do cheerleading-type activities, but it seems like it’d be fun to try. 🙂

    Like


  368. @frustrated guy

    Well, he is old now, but when he was younger, his lips were full. Not as full as Angelina’s, but the shape was the same (I think). Also, she looks like him. I do believe he is her biological father.

    But this doesn’t mean she isn’t mixed. He could be mixed, who knows?

    Like


  369. It’s possible Angelina had those pouty lips from her father.

    Here’s a pic of both parents back in the day.

    Like


  370. Jasmin,

    Thank you! There is no reason to be negative toward dark or thicker women because they didn’t do anything to me. It was those specific group that were hateful. That wouldn’t be right. That’s why I have a problem with some people who hate or dislike an entire group of people based on past experiences with one or two members of that group.

    They were/are very wonderful experiences. I like to share my story because moreso than cool experiences, it is an example of GOD’s redemption and restoration and love for those, including me, who have been treated unkindly. HE rewards those who have been oppressed in some way.

    I didn’t have a background in cheerleading, either. Or even dance. I heard an announcement on the radio and Something told me to try out. Over two hundred girls auditioned and they narrowed down during the coarse of six cuts. Basically, if you’d ever watched the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders “Making the Team”, that’s exactly how it was. Speaking of, there is a girl a couple of seasons ago who looked just like you! She ended up making the team.

    Natasha,

    That study is very interesting! So, I take it that you are in a interracial relationship? That’s great! If you’re happy. Your children should have a very interesting experience. They sould have completly different and better experiences than Halle Berry’s had or any other biracial in her era. I’ve read that in school, whites didn’t accept her and accused her of stuffing the ballot box after winning homecoming queen. But some blacks didn’t either.

    Like


  371. True, true. She looks like both of her parents.

    Like


  372. Oh wow, Angelina’s mother was so beautiful. I can see where she gets her looks from.

    Like


  373. From what I have read about Angelina Jolie, she has Native American on her mother’s side.

    Like


  374. That study is very interesting! So, I take it that you are in a interracial relationship? That’s great! If you’re happy. Your children should have a very interesting experience. They sould have completly different and better experiences than Halle Berry’s had or any other biracial in her era. I’ve read that in school, whites didn’t accept her and accused her of stuffing the ballot box after winning homecoming queen. But some blacks didn’t either.

    islandgirl, yes, my SO and love of my life is of Swedish/Norwegian descent; in other words, white. I am very happy. He is all I’ve ever wanted in a man — intelligent, empathetic, committed, open-minded, not to mention, very handsome (6’3″, slim and toned, good bone structure… and he says he’s the lucky one.).

    Hopefully our future children (they do not yet exist, but will soon ;)) will have positive experiences. We’re not deluded in thinking that discrimination does not exist, but we’re hopeful… I didn’t know that about Halle. I wonder how appearing to be “fully black” changed her experience and perspective.

    Like


  375. Natahsa,

    woo hoo! Good for you! Sounds like a great guy (and fine,too)lol It’s good that you did not limit yourself. I think you miss out on so much when you do. 6’3, though? Dang!

    I’m sure that your future childeren will have positive experiences! I hate to say this, but it seems that biracial children seem so much more adjusted when the mother is black. Maybe because the role of mothers is so much hands on. I don’t know. One things for sure, if you have daughters, you’ll know how to do their hair.lol

    If you don’t mind, do you live in a fairly liberal area? If so, your children should be home free. Biracial kids in my ultra conservative, midwestern area are treated the same as monoracial blacks.

    Yeah, that really did happen to Halle. It bothers her till this day. She said that her mother told her to look in the mirror and her reflection is what she should identify. So I think she approaches life as a fully black woman. But to me, she has the bone structure of a white woman.

    Like


  376. Natasha,

    Sorry, misspelled your name.

    Like


  377. I didn’t know that my previous comments were interpreted as a “diss” towards black women of a specific phenotype. I’m sorry, if it was read that way. I made no mention of skin color so I’m perplexed on why that came up yet again.

    FYI, Most “light skinned” blacks actually DO have stereotypically black features so I’m unsure of where another poster was going with that.

    The theory of “mixed race” (black/white, I’m assuming?) people being more scientifically attractive is interesting yet how come “mulatto” types aren’t seen as being better looking than whites?

    Are Eurasians seen as better looking and of having better facial symetry than full blooded East Asians? Hmmm…

    Islandgirl,

    Your experiences as a NFL cheerleader had to be interesting! I know a girl who works as part of a NFL team’s cheer team. She has a blast being part of it.

    Like


  378. Islandgirl,

    I remember Halle telling that story. Yet, like you said, I think her physical appearance shaped a lot of her experiences with race.

    To be totally honest, no black/white person will ever been seen as white. They can be “black” or “mixed” but never white. It should be noted that many blacks who are NOT products of interracial marriages, but are VISIBLY PART WHITE, go through similar issues.

    Like


  379. Myname,

    Yes it was VERY interesting! From the audtion process, to the workouts and practices and of coarse, the actual games. If you’ve ever seen Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders show, it’s just like that.

    What do you mean your friend was on a ‘cheer team’? Is that the same as a cheerleader?

    It’s true. That is were most people are mistaken. Just because someone is biracial, it doesn’t mean that they are fully accepted.

    There is an actress who is on my facebook (I’m a fan), Rachel True from Half and Half. I asked her if she thinks that being biracial would be any different than being fully black. She said that there is NO difference. When you audition, they just see your mocha skin and classifiy you as such.

    Like


  380. Islandgirl,

    The young lady I was referring to was part of a “spirit team. Their focus was to get the crowd on their feet before a game. She met so many celebrities and got into so many parties because of her role for this NBA team. I’m sure you did too!

    Would you describe your time as a NFL cheerleader as “fun” or was it as grueling as being an NFL player?

    See, Halle and Rachel, per their phenotypes, wouldn’t live a geniunely “mixed race” experience. They’d live a black one. They, and any other black/white offspring, WILL NEVER BE WHITE. Ever.

    Similar to perceptions of skin shade, where do we draw the line between “biracial” and “monoracial” with black Americans? I mean, we call out Halle Berry as “biracial” per her having a known white parent. Yet, how about obvious “mixed bloods” like Colin Powell, who don’t? Or the Don Cheadles/Chris Rocks who also have plenty white blood but look like “regular blacks”?

    Like


  381. islandgirl,

    It’s good that you did not limit yourself. I think you miss out on so much when you do. 6′3, though? Dang!

    I like ’em tall. I like standing on my tip toes to kiss him. 🙂

    I’m sure that your future childeren will have positive experiences! I hate to say this, but it seems that biracial children seem so much more adjusted when the mother is black. Maybe because the role of mothers is so much hands on. I don’t know. One things for sure, if you have daughters, you’ll know how to do their hair.lol

    Lol. That might be true but I wouldn’t know because I don’t know too many older black-white families where the woman is black.

    If you don’t mind, do you live in a fairly liberal area? If so, your children should be home free. Biracial kids in my ultra conservative, midwestern area are treated the same as monoracial blacks.

    I’m from an urban Northeastern city where I’m not currently living but am moving back to soon. It is fairly liberal. My SO’s family is also very liberal and accepting so they wouldn’t have issues with the color of the children.

    mynameismyname,

    The theory of “mixed race” (black/white, I’m assuming?) people being more scientifically attractive is interesting yet how come “mulatto” types aren’t seen as being better looking than whites?

    I tend to find some better looking than whites. But I guess in the media it’s just the “anything but black” issue.

    Are Eurasians seen as better looking and of having better facial symetry than full blooded East Asians? Hmmm…

    According to the study. But I called him on that. I mean, someone like Devon Aoki appears to have an asymmetrical face and is not very conventionally attractive. But he said “Trends, Natasha. There are always exceptions.” I just let him believe mixed race people are a superior breed. It helps him to sleep at night. 😀

    Like


  382. http://daughterofthefirst.blogspot.com/2010/01/bi-racial-children.html

    I see a lot of the talk has been about biracial kids identifying themselves as black because they look more black…
    What if the opposit happens?
    What if your child comes out looking more “white”?
    Like Victoria rowells daughter, or Halle berrys daughter, stacey dash’s kids etc
    The above blog did a great post on this.
    I don’t know why this is, but I have noticed that biracial kids when the mother is black and the father is white, tend to look more like the father, white.
    Is it just me? or has anyone else noticed this?

    Like


  383. L,

    I have noticed some instances of that as well with Downtown Julie Brown’s daughter, Soledad O Brian’s kids, Karyn Parsons and Rae Dawn Chong’s daughters.
    Bear in mind that these women are biracial, unless the mother is monoracially black ie ‘regular’ average black woman it would be interesting to see if that observation holds any water.

    Like


  384. I’ve noticed it with east african women as well, but I guess they don’t count lol

    is Victoria rowel and stacey dash mixed though?
    I always thought they were black.
    I think i have to go visit blackcelebritybabies.com lol

    Like


  385. Yes Victoria Rowell has a white mother, not sure about Stacey Dash, I read somewhere that she’s of mixed heritage, but not reliable though, was wikipedia after all.

    Like


  386. You should read Victoria Rowell’s book ‘The Women who raised me’. Interesting read.

    Like


  387. L, do you mind if I ask a few questions/make some comments? I’m always curious to see how biracial or mixed race people view the various races and race in general.

    These posts of mine have been a bit too emo, I must say. My apologies. I’m just white like that sometimes.

    What’s the connection between white and emo?

    It’s actually not true that mixed people are never considered white. Though I have always identified as multiracial, my friends have told me they consider me to be white.

    I guess it depends on the person’s appearance. Some consider celebrities like Jennifer Beals and Wentworth Miller to be white, while considering Halle Berry, Barack Obama, and Lauren London to be black.

    Do you appear to be of mixed heritage?

    I actually enjoy white social status immensely. I love being part of the mainstream!

    I have to say… this reeks of low self-esteem and internalized racism. What is so great about being white? You should love who you are. It saddens me to see a person of color break under society’s pressure to conform. Don’t let society and the media define who you are.

    I see a lot of the talk has been about biracial kids identifying themselves as black because they look more black…
    What if the opposit happens?
    What if your child comes out looking more “white”?

    I’ve wondered about this. I am lighter-skinned (but my family members’ colors vary greatly) and my SO is blond with green eyes. What if our child(ren) looks white? I certainly would like them to acknowledge all of their heritage, in any case.

    I don’t know why this is, but I have noticed that biracial kids when the mother is black and the father is white, tend to look more like the father, white.
    Is it just me? or has anyone else noticed this?

    Hmmm. I don’t know. Edgar Bronfman Jr.’s children come to mind as an exception. Hannah and Benjamin appear to be more black or mixed than white:

    http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/78/76/MIA.0.0.0×0.381×600.jpeg (son on the left)

    Like


  388. Oh, sorry, frustrated guy. I addressed that last post to L when most of it was meant for you. The last bolded portion was stated by L, not me.

    Like


  389. “frustrated guy” – is it your mother or father who is black?

    Natasha W, I am east african, Eritrean, not mixed, but if I were to have babies with a white man my kids would look more like him, and that I base on my other relatives who are married and have children with their white husbands.
    If I had kids who came out looking more white I would teach them to also be proud of their black side and embrace it and not deny it!
    If i had kids who I spent how many hours giving birth to? lol they better aknowledge who they are or else I will feel like I failed and feel horrible! I don’t want my kids to be self hating, also i would teach them their native tongue even if we live in Europe.

    People when they see me think I am mixed with white because i am “Lighter skinned” and have “white” features, but I would never deny who I am ,Ever.
    I am proud where I am from and so will my children be one day.

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  390. “I hate to say this, but it seems that biracial children seem so much more adjusted when the mother is black. Maybe because the role of mothers is so much hands on. I don’t know. One things for sure, if you have daughters, you’ll know how to do their hair.lol”

    I have noticed this as well.

    Like


  391. “I’m not saying white is necessarily better. It’s just that I don’t have to deal with certain problems in my life because I’m treated as and look white. Girls don’t cross the street when they see me walking down the sidewalk at night. Cabbies compete with each other to give me a ride. My competence is never questioned just because of what I look like. I know stereotypical minorities have a hard row to hoe, but I have managed to avoid those difficulties. Mixed race status brings difficulties of it’s own, but I doubt they outweigh the problems faced by people who look black or Mexican. ”

    So if people ask you, you just say you’re white?
    Do you ever tell people who might not know, that you are infact biracial?
    If not…that’s kind of sad.

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  392. I really hate when people don’t acknowledge their ancestors, like they’re ashamed of who they are.

    Then again, why do sometimes I get the impression that this is only about your black side of the family? What about someone’s white side? Why do black people hate so much when someone mentions Obama’s white family? Why do mixed (black and white) kids have to claim they’re black in order to be accepted?

    Maybe I just don’t know how “one drop rule” works, so I don’t understand. Please explain.

    Like


  393. To L:

    I’m pretty sure the taxi thing is all about decent tipping and nor fear of non whites. And absolutely, looking or passing as white makes life much easier. Sad to say.

    Like


  394. I would think looking/passing as White would make life harder, in the sense that you always have to be suspicious of (White) people’s true intentions. Would they not like you if they knew you were Black? Would they feel comfortable using racial slurs in front of you, then choke out an awkward apology when you say, “Well actually, I’m Black”? Would they be OK with making generalizations about Black people given the disclaimer, “But I don’t mean you?”

    I feel comfortable with the fact that since I am “obviously” Black, people see me as such and treat me accordingly, whether that treatment be positive or negative. It would really hurt to have others’ treatment of me be contingent on what they perceive me to be racially.

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  395. Thank you for your answer.

    Like I said, I don’t know anything of this first hand. I asked because that was something I noticed- black people often think of mixed individuals as black (even Abagond said something along the lines of: “having a white parent is just an interesting info, it doesn’t change the fact you’re black”). I guess it’s true that, no matter how you think of yourself, American society will see you as black. But it does seem a bit… strange, to refer to someone’s mother as “an interesting fact”.

    On the other hand, white people tend to be even more harsh: if you’re not 100% white, you are not white at all (even if you’re, say, Caucasian but not western-norther European sort of Caucasian). Having a white parent- or both for that matter- doesn’t make white people see you as truly white. Which means they will discriminate you.

    Like


  396. I think Americans are a bit more liberal with the definition of whiteness than Europeans are.

    Are you sure?

    I am from Europe, and there are many, many (famous) people I consider to be white. Yet, Americans seem to disagree.

    Plus, I all Caucasians are white to me. This includes people from Middle East, India, and many Latin Americans.

    In my experience, Europeans are more liberal when it comes to definition of “whiteness”, mostly because, unlike in America, you can be seen as white, but still inferior (depending on where in Europe- or Asia- you come from).

    Like


  397. Frustrated Guy’s experiences and perspectives are very interesting. His comments are very poignant.

    Yet, I agree with Jasmin, it’s a position that I wouldn’t want to trade with him. Like she suggested, those “privileges” are given on a fairweather basis. That “white acceptance” you speak of doesn’t come from geniune love. It’s based on hate. It’s unfortunate but real.

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  398. That “white acceptance” you speak of doesn’t come from geniune love. It’s based on hate. It’s unfortunate but real.

    I have to agree here.

    Possibly off topic: (Fake) politeness just for the sake of it, taking stereotypes for facts and assuming white is better tend to be one of things-white-people-do.

    Like


  399. I though when you wrote how people not from northern or western Europe were not considered white, you were referring to conditions in Europe.

    No, I though that’s how Americans see the issue.

    I have no idea how Americans see race, but many comments made by Americans (not just here, on various places) made me think it might be the case. It all started (for me) with that prince in “Princess and the Frog”- people said he looked “Mediterranean”, “which isn’t really white”. Also, when my friend was in America, all her friends- apart from other exchange students- were either black or Latinos. Sure, it doesn’t mean much, but it looked like those people were more ready to befriend her (and ask her on dates) than the whites. Some people were even surprised when she referred to herself as white.

    Of course, it’s just generalization, and it’s not like whole America- or Europe is the same. But that’s the thing I noticed.

    Like


  400. Frustrated Guy,

    Are there any black people in your life? Overall, what is your general relationship with the black community? When whites make their anti-black feelings known, how does it make you feel?

    Like


  401. Americans still often describe Eastern or Southern Euros as “ethnic whites.” So there is some perception of difference there, even if it’s not that socially relevant.

    Thanks for the info. Still, I do think “being white” is somewhat more important in America. In America, it means something. It makes your social status better. In Europe, like I said, you can be seen as white but still treated as inferior. For example, most Europeans see Turks as whites (well, Caucasians); but that doesn’t mean they like them, acknowledge them as equals or want them around.

    Like


  402. Frustrated Guy:

    Do you think whites would be less accepting of you if had been brought up by the black side of your family or if most of your friends or girlfriends were black?

    Like


  403. ^^^
    Wow. The anti-black sentiment that they harbor includes you (and your family), by default. No?

    I agree, many whites defintely have a very clear idea of what “black” behavior and/or “white” behavior is. Of course, millions and millions of black and white folks defy these expectations everyday but obviously they are content in thinking of the world in this way.

    So, do you crave some type of relationship with the black community? In general, how do blacks react when they find out that you’re “one of them”?

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  404. Bye ‘frustrated guy’, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    Seeing what Frustrated guy wrote makes me nervous when I one day myself have children…I don’t want them to feel like they have to choose sides.
    I don’t want a sarah jane if you know what I mean.
    Now THAT would be horrible.
    I have family members who are biracial (black mother/white father) and they look white, but they have no problems with their identity,and no one makes it their problem either, they don’t live in America though, maybe that’s why!

    Like


  405. @ Frustrated Guy:

    Thank you for your interesting comments.

    Like


  406. FG’s comments were defintely interesting. Yet, sad. Too bad he’s living out a somewhat self-inflicted “tragic mulatto” tale.

    There’s many white looking blacks, who don’t have a white parent (and some who do), who adjust just fine in a black social context. Hell, I went to school with a ton of them!

    Like


  407. I look forward to the day when we recognize someone as a “beautiful person” and not a “beautiful black person” or “beautiful white person.” We’re all humans – one big family.

    Like


  408. Note: Frustrated Guy’s comments have been deleted from this post by his request.

    Like


  409. why cant a woman be herself and stop wanting to be someone else or like another person?
    I like attreactive black woman as much as white ones i dont know?
    maybe more,
    jasmine you are really cute and have a nice smile too,
    I see something in a black girl, or woman that i dont see in caucasian ones,
    maybe itsd the culture or maybe its just generations of more family like ubbringing in black circles that i see and caucasian families alwas had one or two that had to have thier way or a snobby attitude,
    Im always curious about black woman that i see, id thier appreciated as much as society thinks they appreciate thier own or the so called white thinking, or whatever,
    i just know i like black woman, i see them on TV and in movies and i think about , or fantasize about them much more than a white wife,
    or girlfriend,not judging ones either thats just me,

    Like


  410. Jasmin, you have a point about Halle being pretty in an average sort of way. I think I mentioned something like that in one of my previous posts. No one feature about Halle stands out because they all work together to achieve a pretty face. Now take Sophia Loren for example, all of her features are exquisite. If you were to put a picture of Sophia and Halle side by side, my eyes would automatically be captivated by Sophia’s features. But Sophia is not the girl next door. Name one woman who looks like Sophia. I don’t think anyone would be able to, but you can probably name a few people that you are friends with, or work with, or have seen who resemble Halle. That’s why I think women in particular toot Halle’s horn is because her beauty is not intimidating to them and is somewhat achievable if they have somewhat lighter skin and a short hair cut.

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  411. this is just my personal opinion, but i think halle berry 1995-present is one of the most beautiful black women.
    i think lela rochon used to be better looking in boomerang. but halle berry has just got better with age. I disagree that gabrielle union (quite pretty, but not striking), angela bassett, or trya banks (slightly odd looks) are better looking.toni braxton and lark voorhies are also similar to lela rochon that back in the daythey looked better than her, but there is now no contest.

    but who do i think gives halle berry a run for her money. maybe meagan good, without the high arched eyebrows and weird hair colour, also kenya moore, stacey dash and noemie lenoir, model natalie suliman.

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  412. also why show a picture of halle berry when she was younger and is not looking her best.

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  413. Stacey Dash and Noemie Lenoir by far surpass Halle.

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  414. Don’t say that out loud islandgirl you are going to have people get mad! Although Stacey is bad

    Like


  415. I feel that Paula Patton slightly outclasses Halle, but it’s a tough call.

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  416. on Thu Feb 25th 2010 at 21:18:32 Leaveumthinking

    Islandgirl about I agree Stacey Dash. Vanity in her prime surpasses Halle too IMO

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  417. Dani,

    lol Did I say that?

    Yes, I forgot about Vanity. She’s absolutely gorgeous. Stacey Dash is great because not only is she gorgeous, but she is not aging at all and looks very young.

    Like


  418. Thanks Edward. 🙂

    Shani,

    I think that “average” as beautiful may be related to scientific studies that show that facial symmetry is rated as most beautiful, i.e., most people rated a combination of a bunch of faces, in which the different features evened each other out, as more beautiful than an individual face (imo, the composite looked like an alien, but ymmv). The thing is, with greater symmetry comes greater plainness, in a sense–the “average eye” will neither be slanted and narrow, nor round and circular, both which can be more striking (individually) than an average-sized oval-shaped eye.

    Stacey Dash is one of those celebrities you want to be friends with (even though she’s old enough to be my mama :-P).

    Like


  419. vanity is stunning more so than halle berry. Vanity actually looks indian to me more than anything.

    Like


  420. I just wanna say that,everybody, always saying Halle berry beautiful. Just becaues she’s a Roll model does not mean she the most beautiful women in the world. I’m tired of everbody saying she beautiful thinking she something.

    Like


  421. I agree with the author. I do appreciate Halle Berry’s beauty, but I don’t personally think she is the most beautiful Black woman. Then again, I wouldn’t give that title to anyone, because what I celebrate most about our race is the diversity of it. If we try to make one look “most beautiful,” we are denying the opportunity for other looks to be appreciated. And I don’t even think Halle Berry herself considers herself the most beautiful woman. Everytime it’s brought up in interviews, she says “beauty is subjective,” so she’s not so caught up in it herself. Why I think Halle has reached the level of being considered the most beautiful Black woman and most famous Black actress are for the following reasons:

    (1) Halle Berry came to Hollywood and was willing to play some grimey roles. She didn’t try to play the beautiful, classy, or girl next door roles right away like Nia Long, Angela Bassett, Keri Washington, Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan and Paula Patton. Remember, in her early movies she usually played a sidekick role or a crackhead. In “Do the Right Thing” and also in “Losing Isaiah”. That gave her a certain credibility that many other equally pretty and talented Black actresses didn’t get.

    (2) Halle Berry has a safe look and is biracial although she looks “Black.” Whenever I hear people say “Halle Berry has White features,” I cringe. To me, she has Black features, or features that aren’t 100% uncommon to Black women. Her skin isn’t really that light. I’m lighter than Halle and so are many other Black women who aren’t biracial. She has delicate features, but so do a million Black women I know. and frankly, there’s tons of White women with big noses and lips and overexaggerated features, moreso than some Black women. But Halle actually being biracial helps. When Whites look at Halle Berry, they see a physically Black woman, but they feel kinship because they know she has a White mother. When Blacks look at Halle Berry, they know she has a White mother and that makes many of us look at her as “of superior kind.” Also, Halle has a safe look that both Blacks and Whites appreciate. Her look is Black in terms of color. Also, she has brown eyes, so Black women still see themselves in her. She is skinny, so White women see themselves in her, but she also has curves in the right places, a plus for both Blacks and Whites. Remember, when she came to Hollywood, she had short hair. If they never told us she was biracial, how many of us would have guessed it on our own? Not many. Someone who looks like Vanessa Williams wouldn’t have been as “safe,” because many Black women would have said “she’s not Black enough” and White women would have looked at her as a “knock-off” White woman, even though she is beautiful as well.

    (3) Halle Berry got with the right White men. Rumors have circulated that she slept with many White Hollywood bigwigs, but whether that’s true or not, she did connect with the right powers that be in Hollywood. This has helped her career tremendously. The only other A-list Black actress is Whoopi Goldberg, and she also got with the right big wig White men. Also, playing the love interest of a White man will always help your career exponentially. Whoopi and Halle did this.

    (4) Halle Berry had plastic surgery. But everyone in Hollywood does, so I’m not sure why this is even brought up???

    Like


  422. I wish that you would leave Halle Berry alone. She can’t control what other people say or think about her. At least Halle is happily married. All you need is love. Let love lead the way. One love like Marley said!!!

    Like


  423. Yeah, although I see Halle as an attractive woman. I never considered her the most beautiful black woman in the world…

    Sorry never did, Tyra Banks, Angela Basset, Stacey Dash. Jill Marie Jones, Gabrielle Union, among other are better looking.

    Her facial features are to “regular” for me.

    Like


  424. Y- i don’t personally think any of those women you mentioned are as pretty as halle berry except for maybe stacey dash. but then thats my opinion.

    Like


  425. Abe,

    That pic you posted is pre-nose job. To be fair, Halle Berry didn’t come into fame until after she went under the knife.

    Like


  426. on Fri Apr 9th 2010 at 23:23:01 just to say...

    it seems as if some of the comments are turning into a personal attack on Berry, which is unfortunate. instead of attacking her, why not focus on the institutions that continue to promote her.
    her acting is at times atrocious, yet she continues to be sent scripts, and given opportunities. i don’t blame her for taking the roles, i blame the institutions that continue to offer them to her. all the while overlooking quality black actresses that have proven they can act circles around Halle.

    Like


  427. ^Well, the post is about her not being the most beautiful. So it follows that most people will be discussing her not being the most beautiful and why; no way for discussion not to be personal.

    Like


  428. on Fri Apr 9th 2010 at 23:33:29 just to say...

    you’re right i guess it just seems silly to focus on her when it would seem to be more beneficial to examine the people who promote her. oh well. let’s continue to pick apart Halle.

    Like


  429. Nice breasts in that film with Travolta

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  430. …and Im a female bootie loving man..

    ever notice how Hollywood shows way more male naked ass than female naked ass?

    Like


  431. You know, I think this is less to do with whether Berry is or is not beautiful and more to do with really dark skinned women dont have good representation in the media and Hollywood.

    They really have pushed a really beautiful group of women to the side.

    I mean women that you can see on the street they have great beauty but just dont get shown in modeling and Hollywood so much.

    Its a shame

    Like


  432. i know what the purpose of this thread is, but i don’t agree. I still think halle berry is one of the most beautiful and can see why a lot of black and white people agree and I don’t think its just due to the media. she sure does however look better from the mid-90’s onwards and has aged well and now looks better than lela rochon and robin givens, regardless of how she was styled and looked in Boomerang.
    I do not agree that gabrielle union (nothing special), tyra banks (odd looks), angela bassett or sanaa lathan (always looked average pretty to me) look better than her
    Who do i think is more beautiful than halle berry? lanisha cole, sade, emmanuelle chriqui to name a few, but none of the aforementioned.

    Like


  433. Ok its not that serious, I dont think Halle Berry is the baddest black woman in the planet. So what?! I never said she was ugly nor did I pick her apart.

    I have my own opinion and I never said it was gospel.

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  434. ever notice how Hollywood shows way more male naked ass than female naked ass?

    True, perhaps, but we all know the biggest movie taboo: full male frontal nudity!

    (well, American movies at least. Seeing it in an European movie is almost a norm nobody pays special attention to. Yes, even if it’s Robert DeNiro).

    You know, I think this is less to do with whether Berry is or is not beautiful and more to do with really dark skinned women dont have good representation in the media and Hollywood.

    This.

    Still, I do see Halle as “ordinary”, which is not bad on its own, but she is not THAT attractive. (Just my female opinion).

    Like


  435. ever notice how Hollywood shows way more male naked ass than female naked ass?

    And well they should!

    Like


  436. my comments were not aimed at anyone specifically , i was just brain farting. there seems to be a common idea in the blogosphere to point blame at Halle Berry for the reason black actresses are not getting work.

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  437. I think they’re too busy showing naked female breasts.

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  438. on Sat Apr 10th 2010 at 01:50:30 leaveumthinking

    Ok its not that serious, I dont think Halle Berry is the baddest black woman in the planet. So what?! I never said she was ugly nor did I pick her apart.
    I have my own opinion and I never said it was gospel.

    I agree with this statement. Its not that crucial and people do have the right to their own opinion. Its funny how people get so defensive when it comes to Halle as if they know her personally.

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  439. yeah it was my comments that were defensive, and made personal attacks against Berry? i’ve read this post, you got some nerve. thanks for the laugh.
    anyway i would love read a post about the hollywood preferences when it comes to minorities. how dark skinned males can have lucrative careers, but not the same for dark complexioned females.
    from what i gather Paula Patton is being groomed to be the next Halle, and to me their acting is about the same. meanwhile Nia Long and Viola Davis, can’t get any attention.

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  440. on Sat Apr 10th 2010 at 02:17:35 leaveumthinking

    Just to say or whatever

    I wasnt referring to you so please get over yourself.

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  441. Herneith ” …and well they should! (reffering to more male ass being shown in Hollywood)”

    E tu , Herneith ?

    Woe is me…I beg you for understanding and pity, Herneith…

    You must understand, here I am, commiting the last 24 years of my life to planting myself down on Brazilian beaches, to get absolutly lost in female inner cheek symetry comparisons, to be in a country that has made the female booty its “national preferance (not my words)”,that celibrates female charactors on the Baile Funk scene with names like “Meloncia” (meaning melons, you can use your imagination) , where women wear tight pants and lycra on the street in order to scream “look at my booty…”

    …and, I rent movies from the States and , over and over, I am asaulted with the images of the naked male ass , that, based on my orientation of the country I live in, elicites a gag reflex and an urge to turn my head away, like when I see cockroack comercials (Ive seen far too many cockroaches in real life to have to watch a comercial at dinner time demonstrating bigger than life images of them).

    Talk about culture differances between two countries…

    Surly, Herneith, even if you dont agree with my point of veiw, you must have some sympathy of my dilema of a female booty privaleged male , and the revulsion syndrome that strikes me with any scene that depicts the male naked ass…

    Just like I can sympathise with Mira being male frontal nude scene deprived… even if I absolutly dont feel the same way..

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  442. I think Halle is definitely pretty, but she isn’t gorgeous or STUNNING really at all! In all honesty, I think White people like less threatening looks in many women, and especially if the girl is not White. Every guy I know seems to LOVE Gabrielle Union, but she isn’t appreciated as much as Halle, which is sad & seems odd.

    I don’t put too much thought into the media’s idea of Black beauty though. The media caters to the majority and the people who will put money back into it, and thats not just White people but WHITE WOMEN. Not White men. White women see more movies, buy more magazines – gossip and fashion, and watch more t.v and “girl” shows and channels like E than Anyone in the U.S. So all of this “beauty” stuff is being catered to White WOMEN. That says a lot to me. If men in general really controlled more things, I’m sure they’d prefer to have all different kinds of hot women all over the place. Most guys seem to just like a hot girl, no matter the race. If a girl is hot, she is hot. Race or features don’t matter.

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  443. Halle Berry has a cute, girl next door look. She doesn’t really exude sex appeal to me, and I feel like that’s what Abagond is referring to when he says she doesn’t “move” him. Halle is very pretty, she’s just not sexy, hot pretty imho.

    There are many black women who look better than Berry, imho. Toni Braxton, Angela Bassett, Lela Rochon to name a few I feel are prettier (and sexier).

    Becca, you are right. If heterosexual men were being targeted to in mainstream media there would be more of a variety of hot women. Just look at porn. Men like all types not just the boiled down generic fashion ideal of beauty.

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  444. Halle Berry’s beauty doesn’t threaten the self-esteem of white women because she is half white and have some features that generally caucasians have. As a matter of fact her beauty reinforces their self-esteem and their place on the pedestal that white men have put them because Halle is a woman of color who is considered one of the world’s most beautiful and she has features that they relate too, so they can see themselves in her and say, ‘that’s why she’s beautiful.’ Halle is definitely a beauty, but the fact of the matter is, is that her beauty is safe.

    The beauty of Kenya Moore, Gabrielle Union, Stacy Dash, Angela Bassett is too threatening.

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  445. I think Halle B. is stunning, but she doesn’t exude sex appeal. She’s not sexy to me. I remember watching Halle as I was growing up and listening to people and the news media gush about how beautiful she was/is. I agree but there was always something about her that I thought was missing. Now that I am thinking about it, it may just be the sex appeal, I thought she lacked. It seemed as if she had to try to be sexy. She is pretty, but she lacks the sensuality that many black women innately have.
    Now Angelina Jolie…………hmm…….Abagond you should do a post on Angelina. That woman is simply amazing.

    Like


  446. I have always though Sanaa Lathan is fine also. She has sex appeal AND beauty. Black Men love sex appeal. Halle Berry doesn’t have much of a body.

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  447. Really? What’s that thing dangling beneath her head then?

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  448. on Tue Jun 29th 2010 at 22:56:35 Menelik Charles

    @ King,

    ?????????

    Like


  449. It’s a BODY

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  450. Declaring a woman who is at least half white genetically to be the “most beautiful black woman” causes discomfort for many, even loud proponents of the One Drop Rule. Be that as it may, I would definitely consider her in the running for the most beautiful mixed race woman.

    Like


  451. Serena is stunning. I hate when people in my country call her the fat sister. *

    *Sister, as “sister Williams” (as the opposite of thin sister Venus), not “sister” as “a black woman”.

    I don’t have a problem with Halle being half white. If American society still see mixed people equally black as fully black people she is eligible to be on “the most beautiful black women list”. After all, nobody complained about Obama being on the most handsome black men list. However, I- and, apparently, so many other people- don’t see Halle as the most beautiful.

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  452. ” don’t have a problem with Halle being half white. If American society still see mixed people equally black as fully black people she is eligible to be on “the most beautiful black women list”. ”

    But you see some people want it both ways. Many would be offended if she were to identify publicly as non-black or mixed. However, some of these same individuals are offended if she’s declared the most beautiful black woman, because in reality they know she’s not that black.

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  453. on Tue Jun 29th 2010 at 23:40:52 Menelik Charles

    @FG,

    Sade is (or was) the cutest mixed -race babe on the planet in my opinion!

    MC
    UK

    Like


  454. I get it, FG, but please don’t derail this into another “mixed people” argument.

    Sade is mixed???

    Like


  455. agree with Menelik! Sade is great!

    Like


  456. I think that Sanaa Lathan is the most beautiful black female celebrity. Halle doesn’t even come close to her in my mind. Halle just has more exposure so people see her as being the most beautiful.

    Like


  457. on Tue Jun 29th 2010 at 23:56:11 Leaveumthinking

    FG,

    For me Vanity (the way she looked in the eighties) is the most beautiful biracial woman.

    Like


  458. Mira,

    “Sade is mixed???”

    Yes, she has a Nigerian/black father and an English/white mother.

    What did you think she was?

    Like


  459. lol ok, it was a stupid joke.

    The way I see Abagond’s post, it’s not about Halle not being eligible for a hottest black women list because she is half white. It’s the reason SHE is considered the most beautiful black woman by many (white) people, and not another black woman. It is not a secret that Halle is seen as acceptably black by many whites. Michelle Obama, for example, might not be stunning, but she is (in my opinion) a very classy and beautiful woman. Still, she is not seen as acceptably black by many whites so you won’t find her on many “most beautiful” lists. Same goes for most of the black women who are not seen as acceptably black by whites.

    Like


  460. Natasha,

    I thought Sade was black. I guess I never thought much about it.

    I think Angela Bassett and Kenya Moore are the most attractive. Sanaa is really beautiful, but I have the same “problem” with her like with Halle- she looks a bit “generic” to me.

    Like


  461. “It’s the reason SHE is considered the most beautiful black woman by many (white) people, and not another black woman. It is not a secret that Halle is seen as acceptably black by many whites. Michelle Obama, for example, might not be stunning, but she is (in my opinion) a very classy and beautiful woman. Still, she is not seen as acceptably black by many whites so you won’t find her on many “most beautiful” lists. Same goes for most of the black women who are not seen as acceptably black by whites.”

    But I think Halle is genuinely considered attractive by many all over the world. Here are some figures on search traffic volume for “Halle Berry photos” and “Angela Bassett photos”. Note that these searches were conducted anonymously and thus likely reflect sincere preferences:

    http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=halle%20berry%20photos%2Cgabrielle%20union%20photos&cmpt=q

    Like


  462. Mira, I don’t think she is generic at all. I haven’t seen many Sanaa Lathans around.

    Like


  463. **** The link above actually compares Halle and Gabrielle Union.

    Like


  464. FG,

    I never said only Americans thought Halle was the most beautiful. I know men all over the world like her. (Men here definitely do). Still, don’t forget that a few privileges play an important role here.

    1) White privilege- Whites dictate beauty standards and they decide who is the most attractive. Sadly, most of the world, white or not, buy into that beauty standard.

    2) American privilege- Americans dictate beauty standards and they decide who is the most attractive. Sadly, most of the world, American or not, buy into that beauty standard.

    So whoever is proclaimed “the best” by white America will always be “universally” praised all over the world.

    Like


  465. Actually, Mira, the French make an effort to reject American standards, but Halle is more popular there than she is in the US.

    Like


  466. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 00:16:22 Menelik Charles

    @ Mira,

    the problem with many whites who promote the notion of a barely Black ‘beauty’ is that they actually don’t accept themselves. By this I mean that non-bi racial Black women (e.g. a Bria Myles) make whites feel what they actually dislike feeling and that is WHITE!

    That’s correct; whites do not like feeling white (which is not the same as feeling American or British). It’s fine when there are no people of colour around (they’re just human then) but when this is not the case, they get to feeling racially inferior. This is why they promote the Beyonces’ and Halles’ as representatives of ‘Black beauty’; it makes them feel comfortable in their own skins.

    That they can continue to get away with this reaction formation (google the phrase) is owed in no small part to the fact that African-Americans (for a variety of reasons we know of) co-sign (and believe) this white lie.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  467. Mira, I think it is also because Halle is more plain than either Angela or Gabrielle. So her look will have a broader appeal. Extremes garner extreme reactions.

    Like


  468. Natasha,

    I don’t know. She is very beautiful, no doubt, but she looks like a typical girl (who considers herself attractive) wants to look. Not sure how to explain it. There are many young women I know with the same “vibe” of some sorts. Of course, not many are equally beautiful, but the vibe, like with Halle, is there. It’s not Sanaa’s (or Halle’s) fault, of course. But when it comes to my opinion, it’s not working to their advantage. (Still, Sanaa is less generic and more beautiful than Halle.)

    Like


  469. I love how whenever I provide hard data on stuff, people rejoin with anecdotes or personal feelings.

    Like


  470. FG,

    Actually, Mira, the French make an effort to reject American standards, but Halle is more popular there than she is in the US.

    Tell me about it! Serbs make an effort to reject anything American, and still, they often adopt any crap and media image presented by the Americans. What I’m saying is, these things are not mutually exclusive. Members of a country can hate America and adopt many of its ways at the same time. It’s not even a paradox: it’s globalization. American things that are seen as American are rejected. But there are so many things that are seen as just “general”, normal and universal and they are accepted. That is the problem.

    After all, why is Brad Pitt more popular around the globe than so many more talented, and more gorgeous European actors? Is it because he is really the best, or because of something else?

    Like


  471. And I’m not saying anyone’s ugly. I’m just arguing that Halle is widely percieved to be beautiful.

    Like


  472. FG,

    I was replying to Natasha’s question about my personal opinion on Sanaa. Nobody here, as far as I can tell, rejoined with anecdotes or personal feelings as a reply to the link you posted.

    Menelik Charles

    So what are you saying? That whites dislike being white and they feel inferior to blacks?

    Like


  473. And I’m not saying anyone’s ugly. I’m just arguing that Halle is widely percieved to be beautiful.

    And I’m just arguing it’s not because of her “actual” beauty.

    Like


  474. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 00:42:12 Menelik Charles

    Mira,

    I’m saying the ‘Ugly Sisters’ disliked being ‘ugly’ and that they enslaved, oppressed and made feel inferior ‘Cinderella’ because she was ‘beautiful’. I’m saying that the ‘Ugly Sisters’ would more likely choose a woman like them and accord her beauty status than they would a woman appearing like their nemesis, ‘Cinderella’.

    I’m basically saying what needs to be said because no people who truly liked themselves would insist at all times that other people meet their specific standards of beauty. So, yeah, I am saying that whites have a collective racial inferiority complex in relation to people of colour, and especially Black people.

    Sorry.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  475. I’m sick of people claiming Halle’s beauty is all just Eurocentric brainwashing. If that were the case, all comparable white actresses would be considered even more attractive. But are they? Let’s compare Halle to perhaps the most famous Slavic (white) woman, Milla Jovovich:

    http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=halle%20berry%20photos%2C%20milla%20jovovich%20photos&cmpt=q

    Once again, it’s not even close.

    Like


  476. As far as I understand, Milla is not as popular as Halle is today. Maybe she was circa 1995, but not today. Soon Halle will be forgotten and less and less people would search for her photos. That’s how it goes.

    A simple example: Orlando Bloom was extremely popular about 10-5 years ago (I can’t believe it’s almost a decade since LotR movies!!!!) but today he’s almost forgotten and Robert Pattinson is the new hot thing. These are results for the past 12 months:

    http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=robert%20pattinson%2Corlando%20bloom&date=today%2012-m&cmpt=q

    Why would it be any different for other celebrities?

    Please don’t tell me most talented or the most beautiful people are those who are the most famous. Like Natasha said, there are many ordinary people who are better looking than celebrities. People have this strange need to see celebrities as extremely hot or superior even if they are not. And those who are pushed by the industry are those who become more famous and they are usually considered the most attractive. You and I, FG could be considered as hot as any of these people with the help of the industry- regardless of our actual physical appearances.

    So it’s not the question whether Halle is hot or not- but why her, and not another black actress?

    Like


  477. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 02:20:36 Menelik Charles

    FG said:

    I’m sick of people claiming Halle’s beauty is all just Eurocentric brainwashing. If that were the case, all comparable white actresses would be considered even more attractive. But are they?

    Menelik replies:

    I’m not sure anyone on here was seeking to compare or contrast Halle berry’s ‘beauty’ with famous white women. I think the general thrust is that she is not the most beautiful ‘Black’ woman by a long distance.

    Can you be more specific about what you mean by the above comments?

    Thanks

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  478. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 02:54:55 Menelik Charles

    Mira said:

    So it’s not the question whether Halle is hot or not- but why her, and not another black actress?

    Menelik replies:

    i just about answered that question, however factually; as I did your previous question:

    Mira said:

    So what are you saying? That whites dislike being white and they feel inferior to blacks?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  479. Menelik,

    My comment was a reply to FG’s. He doesn’t seem to understand what I’m trying to say.

    As for your comment, I didn’t get the Cinderella analogy, but whites might have racial inferiority complex. Maybe that’s why they invented races in the first place.

    Like


  480. OK, here’s a question:

    Why are you people arguing (and arguiong and arguing) about something that’s obviously subjective? Human beauty…?

    Has no one here ever heard it’s in the eye of the beholder?

    I’m well aware of the fact that a lot of the conversation here is WHY Halle is considered to be beautiful by so many people, well and good. But all these comments like “She’s not the most beautiful…” or “X is OBVIOUSLY more beautiful than Y” are BS.

    To you, maybe. To you.

    Like


  481. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 05:00:36 Menelik Charles

    @ Mira,

    point taken.

    Menelik

    Like


  482. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 05:03:00 Menelik Charles

    @ Mira,

    have you never come across the tale of ‘Cinderella and the Ugly Sisters’?

    Like


  483. Thad,

    To you, maybe. To you.

    I think that’s given. But that never prevented people from stating their preferences. I don’t think anybody here assumed Halle is objectively “uglier” than Sanaa or another actress. There’s no such thing. I thought everybody knew that. I don’t think anybody here said anything along the lines of “X is obviously more beautiful than Y”. Or am I missing something?

    Menelik Charles,

    have you never come across the tale of ‘Cinderella and the Ugly Sisters’?

    Of course I know about the tale, but I was unable to see how it’s relevant to the problem if black/white relations. Who is Cinderella and who are the ugly sisters in your example? Are you saying white women are ugly so they try to put beautiful black Cinderella down in order to feel superior? Or that black women are ugly sisters and Cinderella is white? … You lost me with that analogy.

    Like


  484. “Why are you people arguing (and arguiong and arguing) about something that’s obviously subjective? Human beauty…?”

    I’m not sure if attractiveness is all that subjective. When someone is widely perceived to be beautiful, what people are actually seeing in that person are visual indicators of the biological capacity to reproduce successfully. It’s about evolution, y’know?

    Like


  485. Oh, brother FG…

    No, it’s not that way. Or rather, yes, people do notice biological fitness at some level, but what’s considered “beautiful” doesn’t correspond to that. Today’s “beautiful women” are probably too skinny to be “biologically fit for reproduction” and, furthermore, even if we were to presume that they weren’t, today’s beuaty standards aren’t yesterday’s or every cultures.

    Yeah, some things seem to be standard and perhaps have a biological base: symetry is more often noted as beuatiful, cross-culturally, than assymetry. Glossy hair is more noted as beautiful than dull hair, etc.

    But lighter skin versus darker skin? That’s almost certainly socio-historical and not biological, for a series of reasons, some having to do with racism and some with classism.

    Big hair versus short hair?

    Skinny versus fat?

    NONE of these things are ruled by biology.

    You have only to look at how human males go against the grain for every other mammilian species to see how biology doesn’t rule our notions of beauty. In every other mammalian species, the males are more visually exhuberant. Somehow, that’s been reveresed among humans and I highly doubt it’s for genetic reasons.

    Like


  486. In every other mammalian species, the males are more visually exhuberant. Somehow, that’s been reveresed among humans and I highly doubt it’s for genetic reasons.

    This. 10000x THIS!

    Like


  487. @Mira

    Here’s some comments which seem to indicate that the people discussing this here believe that we have a yard stick for judging beauty:

    MC: “I think the general thrust is that she is not the most beautiful ‘Black’ woman by a long distance.”

    Natasha: “Mira, I think it is also because Halle is more plain than either Angela or Gabrielle.”

    And, of course, FG’s recent statement.

    Not an attack here, just commenting.

    What I also find interesting is how Halle cannot win at this game. If she were reviled by the white public, it would be attributed to race (i.e. her African ancestry). Because she’s loved by the public, it’s attributed to race (i.e. her European ancestry). All this is post facto thinking: we believe that whatever reaction occurs regarding Halle must reflect race and we can easily rewrite our opinions to take into consideration any reaction whatsoever, always maintaining race as key.

    So if Halle is trashed as ugly, it will be because her beauty is too threatening because she’s partially black; if she’s lauded as gorgeous, it will be because her beauty is not threatening because she’s partially white.

    This isn’t social theorizing, folks: it’s dogma. We already believe that Halle’s beauty needs must be determined by race, so we invent theories that do just that, according to our ideology.

    What I’d like to see is some PROOF. Some white person somewhere saying Halle is pretty because she’s whiter or whatever.

    Surely something like this can be found, given the immense amount of discussion online about her?

    Like


  488. You’re right about FG’s last comment, but I thought Natasha and MC were talking about something else.

    In any case, the problem here is not Halle herself, her physical appearance or acting talent. The same thread could be made for Beyonce or Rihanna. In two years, it would be another black woman “universally” praised as the most beautiful black woman in the world. Whether she is, in fact, the most beautiful and how subjective that is is irrelevant. The question is: why Halle (Beyonce) and not another girl(s)?

    I believe Abagodn wrote this post because many people were almost insulted because he didn’t include Halle on his hottest black women list. So in essence, this post is purely subjective. But it does open an important question: is Halle (Beyonce, whoever) seen as the most beautiful because whites see her as acceptably black and some sort of white girl with a darker skin?

    Like


  489. Also, please note that I don’t think Halle’s “white beauty” and “acceptable blackness” have anything to do with the fact she is half white. A fully black actresses/singer could be seen the same way, although to be praised by whites it’s always good to be half white.

    Like


  490. “In any case, the problem here is not Halle herself, her physical appearance or acting talent. The same thread could be made for Beyonce or Rihanna. In two years, it would be another black woman “universally” praised as the most beautiful black woman in the world. Whether she is, in fact, the most beautiful and how subjective that is is irrelevant. The question is: why Halle (Beyonce) and not another girl(s)?

    I believe Abagodn wrote this post because many people were almost insulted because he didn’t include Halle on his hottest black women list. So in essence, this post is purely subjective. But it does open an important question: is Halle (Beyonce, whoever) seen as the most beautiful because whites see her as acceptably black and some sort of white girl with a darker skin?”

    For an anthropologist (self-proclaimed), your analyses come off as rather poorly developed and sophomoric. So are you saying that whites don’t really think she’s beautiful but say she is because she’s half-white and thus “acceptably black.” Please clarify.

    Like


  491. FG,

    “I love how whenever I provide hard data on stuff, people rejoin with anecdotes or personal feelings.”

    Hard data? LOL! There is no such thing as hard data when it comes to beauty. There are baseline factors, and the rest is a toss-up. Even if every list had Halle as most beautiful, that still wouldn’t make her the most beautiful.

    For some reason, I think you are only pushing this because she is half-white/mixed. The “biracials/multiracials are more attractive” bull. Sorry, not buying it. I see proof every day that that’s just not the case.

    ———————————–

    Mira,

    “People have this strange need to see celebrities as extremely hot or superior even if they are not. And those who are pushed by the industry are those who become more famous and they are usually considered the most attractive. You and I, FG could be considered as hot as any of these people with the help of the industry- regardless of our actual physical appearances.”

    It is strange indeed. I see celebrities for what they are: people with access to the best make-up artists, personal stylists, plastic surgeons, and media hype. I can call them beautiful, but they aren’t the most beautiful people in the world. Halle pre-Hollywood wasn’t even what I would call pretty.

    Here’s some comments which seem to indicate that the people discussing this here believe that we have a yard stick for judging beauty:

    ————————————-

    Thad,

    “Here’s some comments which seem to indicate that the people discussing this here believe that we have a yard stick for judging beauty:

    Natasha: “Mira, I think it is also because Halle is more plain than either Angela or Gabrielle.”

    Ummm, I wasn’t trying to establish an objective standard of beauty; sorry for your misinterpretation. I was simply throwing out a factor I think is important in people’s perception. Symmetry and averageness are a part of beauty, at least general beauty.

    Like


  492. “Here’s some comments which seem to indicate that the people discussing this here believe that we have a yard stick for judging beauty:

    MC: “I think the general thrust is that she is not the most beautiful ‘Black’ woman by a long distance.”

    Natasha: “Mira, I think it is also because Halle is more plain than either Angela or Gabrielle.”

    And, of course, FG’s recent statement.

    Not an attack here, just commenting.”

    To be fair, I made an evolutionary argument for objective attractiveness.

    Like


  493. Thad, the line before the break in the comment above was part of your original comment.

    “What I’d like to see is some PROOF. Some white person somewhere saying Halle is pretty because she’s whiter or whatever.

    Surely something like this can be found, given the immense amount of discussion online about her?”

    My SO has said this about her and Beyonce. Although I don’t think that is the main reason for Halle, because I don’t think she looks white in the slightest. However, I do think whites have an easier time deeming someone beautiful if they have visual indicators of what is perceived as whiteness.

    Like


  494. “For some reason, I think you are only pushing this because she is half-white/mixed. The “biracials/multiracials are more attractive” bull. Sorry, not buying it. I see proof every day that that’s just not the case.”

    Once again, you’re arguing with personal experiences. I’ve been arguing with google search data compiled over the past 6 years.

    Like


  495. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 16:04:24 Menelik Charles

    Mira said

    of course I know about the Cinderella tale, but I was unable to see how it’s relevant to the problem of black/white relations. Who is Cinderella and who are the ugly sisters in your example? Are you saying white women are ugly so they try to put beautiful black Cinderella down in order to feel superior? Or that black women are ugly sisters and Cinderella is white? … You lost me with that analogy.

    Menelik replies:

    I’m saying that Black women represent ‘Cinderella’ and that white women represent the ‘Ugly Sisters’ insofar as the beauty of dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women has been disparged and marginalised (just as was the beauty of Cinderella) while white women are the primary beneficiaries of this scam (they are invited to the ‘Royal Ball’ while ‘genuine’ Black women are not).

    The over-riding point of my analogy was that whites essentially envy Blacks for a whole range of things not least their dark colouring, physical grace, and aesthetic beauty. Just as the ‘Ugly Sisters’ envied the beauty and grace of their step-sister, ‘Cinderella’.

    This is why the likes of Dorothy Dandridge, Beyonce Knowles, and Halle Berry are so useful in projecting a racially defensive beauty i.e. a ‘Black beauty’ which in essence promotes ‘white beauty’ and thus boosts the collective self-esteem of racially unstable whites.

    This was my point.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  496. For an anthropologist (self-proclaimed), your analyses come off as rather poorly developed and sophomoric.

    Well, first of all, I am an archaeologist. But never mind.

    Yes, I did try to explain it in one sentence which was possibly a mistake. What I meant to say is that whites decide, so to speak, who becomes famous and who is considered “in” person of the moment. When it comes to minorities (blacks in this case), they chose not because of talent or actual physical appearance (though I’m not saying it’s never taken into account), but because these people are “acceptably black”. I’m not saying that any acceptably black person will become famous, but yes, I do believe you must be seen as acceptably black in order to be seen as “safe” for whites to actually consider pushing you as the hot, talented or “it” person of the moment. You don’t have to be mixed to be acceptably black. However, being partly white- and not denying it (like, perhaps, Obama did recently) helps.

    Like


  497. FG,

    The man in the “golliwog” post is not very attractive IMO. Neither is Joakim Noah. Or the two sisters that live down the street from me. So should I say that biracials/multiracials tend to be less attractive?

    Also, I see you didn’t deny that you are pushing Halle for this reason. Duly noted.

    Like


  498. I’m not sure that this “half white” argument stands up against scrutiny anyway. That’s assumes ( incorrectly) an overly-simplistic formula.

    1 White parent + 1 Black Parent = 50/50 mixed child

    However, the genetics don’t sort themselves out neatly into 50% divisions. There are dominant and recessive genes to consider, and of course, a lot of it is based on the roll of the dice. Halle Berry is not split neatly down the genetic middle, and it is completely possible for a person with 2 “Black” parents (with a mixed genetic family history) to come up with the same phenotypical appearance as Halle and nobody would be arguing which genes are responsible for her beauty.

    Like


  499. Mira,

    Lol, you just reminded me of how my SO said that Will Smith is the kind of black person that whites like; he is funny and doesn’t rock the boat. I asked “Have you been reading abagond?” He said “No, why did abagond say the same thing?” 🙂

    Like


  500. “However, the genetics don’t sort themselves out neatly into 50% divisions. There are dominant and recessive genes to consider, and of course, a lot of it is based on the roll of the dice. Halle Berry is not split neatly down the genetic middle, and it is completely possible for a person with 2 “Black” parents (with a mixed genetic family history) to come up with the same phenotypical appearance as Halle and nobody would be arguing which genes are responsible for her beauty.”

    They are with Beyonce.

    Like


  501. Menelik Charles

    Thank you. I understand your point now. Yes, there is certainly a degree of truth in it- whites often envy blacks for what they have- or what they think they have- naturally. Women envy black women’s bodies for example, and let’s not go into what white men envy when it comes to black men.

    But there is also, I think, a “political” side of the “hottest black person” story. He or she must be acceptably black in order to be, so to speak, eligible. And here, I don’t mean on physical appearance only, though it’s also important. It’s also about how proud to be black you are. It’s not that difficult to understand. Blacks have their mechanism for judging white celebrities that has nothing to do with their physical appearance- how racist they are. An actor who is not known for racist rants and who dates or marries black women has a much better chance to be on black women’s “hottest white men” list than a guy known for his racism- regardless of his physical appearance.

    These two mechanisms are not the same, or even similar, but they demonstrate it’s never only about celebrities’ physical appearance when it comes to judging who is “hottest”.

    Like


  502. Only because her mother is identified as “creole.” If we simply called her a light-skinded Black woman, there would be no argument.

    Like


  503. “Yes, I did try to explain it in one sentence which was possibly a mistake. What I meant to say is that whites decide, so to speak, who becomes famous and who is considered “in” person of the moment. When it comes to minorities (blacks in this case), they chose not because of talent or actual physical appearance (though I’m not saying it’s never taken into account), but because these people are “acceptably black”. I’m not saying that any acceptably black person will become famous, but yes, I do believe you must be seen as acceptably black in order to be seen as “safe” for whites to actually consider pushing you as the hot, talented or “it” person of the moment. You don’t have to be mixed to be acceptably black. However, being partly white- and not denying it (like, perhaps, Obama did recently) helps.”

    I think this is ridiculous myself. Moviegoers pay money to see Halle as James Bond’s girl not because they are conspiring to define blackness in a Eurocentric way but because Halle satisfies their beauty preferences.

    Like


  504. No, King, there still would be. Because no light-skinned people exist in Africa (who aren’t mixed). 🙄

    Like


  505. Also, let’s not forget a simple reason why many whites think Halle is the most beautiful black woman- they simply don’t know (or care) about other black celebrities. Between Halle and, say, Whoopi Goldberg, I believe most of the people would choose Halle as more attractive. Do whites even know about some of the ladies appearing in “black” movies or singers singing “black” music? Halle is pretty, no doubt, but in whites’ world, she doesn’t have much of a competition because most of them don’t know about many black celebrities.

    Like


  506. FG,

    I think this is ridiculous myself. Moviegoers pay money to see Halle as James Bond’s girl not because they are conspiring to define blackness in a Eurocentric way but because Halle satisfies their beauty preferences.

    I am not saying they are doing on purpose- the Eurocentric ways are put in their brain- everybody’s brain- by culture. That’s what shapes their “preference” after all.

    As for the political side of the story, fair enough, men might think differently. They might still equally like a beautiful “acceptably black” girl and a member of black panthers. Still, the industry would never push that kind of celebrity into mainstream. Never.

    Like


  507. “No, King, there still would be. Because no light-skinned people exist in Africa (who aren’t mixed).”

    Well, you do have Afrikanners living there. There are no unmixed indigenous sub-Saharan Africans who look like Halle.

    Like


  508. “When it comes to minorities (blacks in this case), they chose not because of talent or actual physical appearance (though I’m not saying it’s never taken into account), but because these people are “acceptably black”.”

    “I am not saying they are doing on purpose- the Eurocentric ways are put in their brain- everybody’s brain- by culture. That’s what shapes their “preference” after all. ”

    Okay, here are two contradictory statements you’ve made in just the past hour. First you claimed that whites don’t really notice a difference in physical attractiveness. In the second, you claim they do but its the result of social conditioning.

    Like


  509. on Wed Jun 30th 2010 at 16:30:46 Menelik Charles

    FG said:

    I think this is ridiculous myself. Moviegoers pay money to see Halle as James Bond’s girl not because they are conspiring to define blackness in a Eurocentric way but because Halle satisfies their beauty preferences.

    Menelik replies:

    whites do not have a preference for whiteness; white power, white privilege, white ingenuity, yes – but not whiteness per se. Halle Berry was chosen as a bona fide ‘Bond Girl’ because of her white appearence and her status in the Black collective mind as a ‘Black beauty’.

    Thus by choosing a Halle over some chocolate-coloured Black woman, the white elite in the film industry are essentially maintaining and reinforcing the notion of white beauty supremacy.

    Can you seriously not get this, bro?

    Menelik Charles
    London England

    Like


  510. @Natasha

    Lol, you just reminded me of how my SO said that Will Smith is the kind of black person that whites like; he is funny and doesn’t rock the boat. I asked “Have you been reading abagond?” He said “No, why did abagond say the same thing?

    lol 😛

    I do believe “not rocking the boat” is important if you want to become a mainstream black- or any other for that matter celebrity.

    Speaking of Will Smith, I always found him annoying. Not sure why. The most respectable black actors in my part of the world are Sidney Poitier, Denzel Washington and Morgan Freeman (who I really like because we share the same birthday). Will Smith and Wesley Snipes are also popular. With ladies, it’s even trickier. Of course, people here know about these actors because they- and not some others- are pushed by Hollywood.

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  511. FG,

    “I think this is ridiculous myself. Moviegoers pay money to see Halle as James Bond’s girl not because they are conspiring to define blackness in a Eurocentric way but because Halle satisfies their beauty preferences.”

    Right — their beauty preferences are obviously going to be for those who are perceived to be more Euro. I think each group sees others through the lens of their own group (although this is less so for non-whites, it still applies). So whites do indeed define blackness through a Eurocentric perspective. Blacks also tend to like whites who are darker (except the blacks who’ve been completely whitewashed; they go for the “whitest” whites).

    FG,

    “Well, you do have Afrikanners living there. There are no unmixed indigenous sub-Saharan Africans who look like Halle.”

    Once again, your utter ignorance shows:

    Nnenna Freelon is at least the same color as Halle, if not lighter:

    She is as full, unmixed West African as anyone is going to get.

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  512. @ Natasha

    Ah… I forgot. And whenever anyone around the world is darker skinned, it’s because some African somehow got to their womenz!

    Like


  513. Ooops! Sorry, I meant FG!

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  514. FG

    First you claimed that whites don’t really notice a difference in physical attractiveness. In the second, you claim they do but its the result of social conditioning.

    No, that’s not what I said. You must tell a difference between “regular whites” (the audience) and fillmmakers or whoever is in charge with the industry (and media). The industry push certain people and not the others. It happens all the time (not just with blacks)- there are, for example, so many talentless but super famous actresses and so many talented ones that just can’t get decent roles. When it comes to black celebrities, standard rules apply, but there is always the question of being acceptable or not, of “rocking the boat” or not.

    When it comes to audience, they buy whatever is served for them. More or less. If you believe differently then you give humans way too much credit.

    Did I make myself clear now?

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  515. “Ah… I forgot. And whenever anyone around the world is darker skinned, it’s because some African somehow got to their womenz!”

    There is phenotypical variation in Africa of couse. But Halle or Beyonce-types are not indigenous to the place. The exception would be North Africa, but that’s only because it’s a transition zone between the white- and black-populated areas.

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  516. Lol, King. I am laughing only because I find it sad. Sad, indeed. The state of black attractiveness to Euro-centered minds: non-existent, without the help of whites.

    On a forum, I even saw people arguing that Agbani Darego is mixed, when she looks like a celebrity pretty version of the typical Efik/Ibibio women from Eastern Nigeria:

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  517. “On a forum, I even saw people arguing that Agbani Darego is mixed, when she looks like a celebrity pretty version of the typical Efik/Ibibio women from Eastern Nigeria:”

    You seem awfully concerned to convince people that there are indigenous sub-Saharans that “look mixed.”

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  518. FG,

    “You seem awfully concerned to convince people that there are indigenous sub-Saharans that “look mixed.”

    Ummm, what are you talking about? I think you deliberately misinterpret people.

    I don’t think either Nnenna Freelon or Agbani Darego look mixed. They look like Nigerian women. I was saying that they don’t, but people try to qualify their beauty with admixture from whites.

    And if mixed is that guy in the “golliwog” post, I’ll pass! 😉

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  519. “Lol, King. I am laughing only because I find it sad. Sad, indeed. The state of black attractiveness to Euro-centered minds: non-existent, without the help of whites.”

    I hope your not implying this is what I’m arguing. All I’ve been trying to say is that Halle is genuinely considered beautiful.

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  520. “Ummm, what are you talking about? I think you deliberately misinterpret people.”

    You really need to be more careful. I’m very good at reading between the lines.

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  521. FG, you call it “reading between the lines,” but it comes off as paranoia. And ignorance. If you actually think I view mixed and whites as more attractive, which you’ve implied on many occasions, you are quite clearly a failure at reading between the lines.

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  522. Let’s chronicle this utter failure at reading between the lines, or really, reading in general. So no one repeats it and thinks they are being “clever”:

    -I say that I don’t think Halle looks part white or mixed (Because I’ve seen people I know for a fact aren’t mixed that have similar phenotypes).

    -FG says that there are no unmixed sub-Saharan Africans with a Halle phenotype.

    -I prove him wrong.

    -FG then says I seem concerned with trying to prove that Africans “look mixed.”

    …Can you say fail? How do you do the “palmface” smiley on wordpress?

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  523. “-I prove him wrong.”

    This is the weak part of your argument.

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  524. Lol, FG. Give it up. You are wrong. I could provide a million more examples like the one above, but we are only allowed two links per comment.

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  525. Knowing you, if you found out that Dolph Lundgren had a remote African ancestor, you’d probably start arguing that there are indigenous sub-Saharans who look just like him.

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  526. But you don’t know me. Obviously. You just think you’re a “mind reader” for some reason. Quite pathetic.

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  527. FG,

    What does it mean to “look mixed” in the first place? Most people look like a mix–between their parents. I’m curious to know how you deal with your cognitive dissonance: disdain for “non-mixed looking” (according to your narrow standards) mixed people coupled with your desire for mixed group solidarity.

    Natasha,

    How do you do the eyeroll? That’s a cool one. 🙂

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  528. Jasmine, you put a colon directly before and after the word “roll”.

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  529. Oops, I meant “Jasmin,” of course. 😉

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  530. Let me try– 🙄

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  531. Got it thanks!

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  532. Menelik said:

    I’m saying that Black women represent ‘Cinderella’ and that white women represent the ‘Ugly Sisters’ insofar as the beauty of dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women has been disparged and marginalised (just as was the beauty of Cinderella) while white women are the primary beneficiaries of this scam (they are invited to the ‘Royal Ball’ while ‘genuine’ Black women are not).

    The over-riding point of my analogy was that whites essentially envy Blacks for a whole range of things not least their dark colouring, physical grace, and aesthetic beauty. Just as the ‘Ugly Sisters’ envied the beauty and grace of their step-sister, ‘Cinderella’.

    This is why the likes of Dorothy Dandridge, Beyonce Knowles, and Halle Berry are so useful in projecting a racially defensive beauty i.e. a ‘Black beauty’ which in essence promotes ‘white beauty’ and thus boosts the collective self-esteem of racially unstable whites.

    This was my point.

    and

    whites do not have a preference for whiteness; white power, white privilege, white ingenuity, yes – but not whiteness per se. Halle Berry was chosen as a bona fide ‘Bond Girl’ because of her white appearence and her status in the Black collective mind as a ‘Black beauty’.

    Thus by choosing a Halle over some chocolate-coloured Black woman, the white elite in the film industry are essentially maintaining and reinforcing the notion of white beauty supremacy.

    Can you seriously not get this, bro?

    I understand and agree with these statements. they are fairly easy for me to see. When women like the aforementioned are chosen to represent “black” beauty its a way of saying your(black people’s) beautiful women are look they way they do because the exude(or mimic in the case of Beyonce) whiteness in one way or another. IE the most beautiful black women are mixed, biracial, were long/blond hair weaves, have sharp nose ect. Essentially, a black beauty is a white beauty dipped in chocolate.

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  533. “I understand and agree with these statements. they are fairly easy for me to see. When women like the aforementioned are chosen to represent “black” beauty its a way of saying your(black people’s) beautiful women are look they way they do because the exude(or mimic in the case of Beyonce) whiteness in one way or another. ”

    Okay, let’s summarize what’s been said. According to some here, Halle is not a mixed race woman, but a black woman. She is simply black. However, her success an actress is illegitimate. It’s “colorism.” She can’t represent black beauty because she “excudes whiteness.”

    This just adds more weight to my thesis that the One Drop Rule is an ideological formation intended to suppress upward mobility and social prominence among America’s mixed race population.

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  534. Okay, let’s summarize what’s been said. According to some here, Halle is not a mixed race woman, but a black woman. She is simply black. However, her success an actress is illegitimate. It’s “colorism.” She can’t represent black beauty because she “excudes whiteness.

    I dont know who “some” is, but I speak for myself. I see Halle as mixed race. She is black in the sense that she sees/identifies herself as black(yes you can look it up). Nonetheless she has a white mother and is mixed race. And I never said she couldnt represent “black beauty” she can represent mixed/racially ambiguous black women but that doesnt change the fact that most media representations of black woemn are off. There is a disproportionate number of biracials/mixed race women being showcased as the definition of black beuty. It seems odd to me that biracial and multiracial women with signifigant Euro ancestry are often heralded as the epitome of “black” beuaty when we all know the reverse wouldnt happen. I dont recall saying her success was “illigitiamte”, she is a good actress for sure but thats not going to stop me from discussing the pattern Hollywood follows when selecting black actresses.

    This just adds more weight to my thesis that the One Drop Rule is an ideological formation intended to suppress upward mobility and social prominence among America’s mixed race population.

    I dont subscribe to the ODR but I want to know, FG, how calling a mixed race person “black” is suppressing them?

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  535. Okay, let’s summarize what’s been said. According to some here, Halle is not a mixed race woman, but a black woman. She is simply black. However, her success an actress is illegitimate. It’s “colorism.” She can’t represent black beauty because she “excudes whiteness.

    I dont know who “some” is, but I speak for myself. I see Halle as mixed race. She is black in the sense that she sees/identifies herself as black(yes you can look it up). Nonetheless she has a white mother and is mixed race. And I never said she couldnt represent “black beauty” she can represent mixed/racially ambiguous black women but that doesnt change the fact that most media representations of black women are off. There is a disproportionate number of biracials/mixed race women being showcased as the definition of black beauty. It seems odd to me that biracial and multiracial women with significant Euro ancestry are often heralded as the epitome of “black” beauty when we all know the reverse wouldnt happen. I dont recall saying her success was “illegitimate”, she is a good actress for sure but thats not going to stop me from discussing the pattern Hollywood follows when selecting black actresses.

    This just adds more weight to my thesis that the One Drop Rule is an ideological formation intended to suppress upward mobility and social prominence among America’s mixed race population.

    I dont subscribe to the ODR but I want to know, FG, how calling a mixed race person “black” is suppressing them?

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  536. on Thu Jul 1st 2010 at 07:16:50 Menelik Charles

    The bottom line is that mixed-race and ‘barely Black’ women are psychological instruments of oppression when used by white power structures to maintain a racially and coloured stratified society along white supremacist lines. It is in such societies are Black women victims of “high tech lynchings”!

    Those Black women who ignore and/or accept this state-of-affairs, see no problem, for example, turning out in their droves to support Black male singers/rappers whose every promotional videos never, ever, features a recognisable Black woman as a recipient of sexual or romantic desire.

    By contrast, white-male rock/pop videos at least 98% of the way feature recognisable white female objects of romantic and sexual desire. Nothing at all wrong here, folks!

    But can this centuries-long assault on Black female self-esteem be halted? Yes, absolutely! And there is a very unique but painful (in that the results are, at first, humiliating) way of achieving a likely end to this racial antagonism. First it might involve the methodological theory (which I’ve formulated) then the actual means (finance) and lastly, a very bold editor of, say, a Black woman’s magazine or journal to put their weight behind the project.

    The results would likely be as follows: controversy, publicity, group shame and ultimately a determination and commitment to finally address this issue once and for all. This really can be achieved particularly if one has evidence to support (1) the notion of a white inferiority complex and (2) concrete and irrefutable evidence proving that dark-skinned, Negroid-featured females are, in fact, the ideal female model in the white collective imagination!

    I guess you all gotta see it to believe it, right? Well, just you wait and see!!!!!!!

    Menelik Charles
    London England

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  537. Whoa, evidently I missed some stuff…

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  538. Menelik,

    When is your book coming out? I do believe that a big problem of whites getting away with promoting mixed, barely black beauty is that a lot of black people jump on the bandwagon and support it. If black people, particularly black women ignored it, then it wouldn’t hold as much power. Because even though promoting mixed beauty may keep whites comfortable in their white skin, the other effect would be to diminish the self esteem of obviously black woman. If the latter effect doesn’t happen, then the former effect would be useless. I hope you understand what I am saying, but to sum it up simply: Diminishing the self esteem of fully black women by promoting mixed beauty helps keep whites comfortable in their skin.

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  539. on Thu Aug 26th 2010 at 09:44:11 Menelik Charles

    Hi Shan,

    it’s some way off, maybe a year – though I already have publishers vying for the rights!

    This issue of color prejudice, and hair fetish, within Black society is promoted within the family. White society only reinforces the damage done by their ancestors. We can escape this damage, for sure, but the iconic white female has to be removed from her pedestal. It will happen via a number of different routes…in time.

    Peace.

    Menelik Charles
    London England

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  540. Menelik,

    Good to hear about your book. I will be purchasing it. Something I find to be very confusing is that I’ve read in the past and still read blogs where white men state that they don’t find black women attractive OR they don’t find most of us physically attractive OR that they only find the “Halles” and “Beyonce” types attractive, and then turn in the same sentence write something like maybe we should smile more OR we should get better attitudes. I know that inner beauty is what counts and blah blah blah, but they are obviously talking about the physical appearance so if they don’t find black women attractive ‘physically’, how will getting a better attitude or smiling help? If a woman is physically attractive, then she is physically attractive with or without a bad attitude even though I know all the cliche stuff about inner beauty but I am trying to make a point because it seems as if white men actually contradict themselves without realizing it.

    I know not all white men will find black women attractive but to justify it not finding black women physically attractive because they “don’t smile” doesn’t make sense.

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  541. “Those Black women who ignore and/or accept this state-of-affairs, see no problem, for example, turning out in their droves to support Black male singers/rappers whose every promotional videos never, ever, features a recognisable Black woman as a recipient of sexual or romantic desire”.

    Given the bad behavior and bad lyrics of many Black rappers, I’m not sure this is something to strive for.

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  542. halle berry is one of the most beautiful women of colour and blossomed over the years, whilst her co-stars in boomerang don’t look much different. I do not agree that tyra banks (abit odd looking) gabrielle union (overrated looks) are better looking neither is sanaa lathan. But sade yes and also tomiko fraser who an underrated beautiful black woman, the most beautiful in my opinion.

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  543. If you want a good critical reading before you send it off to the editors, I’d be happy to give your book a look-see, Menelik Charles.

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  544. I find Halle Berry beautiful. Is she THE most beautiful Black woman in the world? No. We have no way of knowing who that woman is, if she even exists, because the world is filled with people that most of us will probably never meet. For all we know, the most beautiful woman in the world could be in a remote village that no one has ever heard of. This is why I’ve always thought it silly when certain celebrities are touted as the most beautiful people. Most beautiful according to whom?

    @ Soul…ITA with what you said. You’re perfectly right. I find it sad that someone who claims to be part of the Hollywood scene (a claim that anyone can make on the Internet without it actually being true), would feel the need to sling mud at Halle Berry’s character when the conversation is about physical beauty.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I wonder about a man who would go out of his way to attack the character of a woman he has probably never met. What also blows my mind is the arrogance with which he states his convictions.

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  545. @Cinnamondiva: I like how you think. Kudos.

    Personally, I think Halle is gorgeous. The most beautiful black woman in the world? LOL! This thread cracks me up. Beauty is SUBJECTIVE. Thus there is no way of determining who is the most beautiful of this or that or of all races. Who gives a s**t anyway? Opinions are like a**holes, everybody’s got one. Who cares how black or white she is? Why is it an issue anyway?

    I’m just happy there are beautiful women in general. I cannot put them in any specific order. There are different features in different women that appeal to me, unique to one individual. So I wouldn’t say Halle is the most beautiful, but she rocks my socks off -as does Angela Basset.

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  546. Hannu…aww, thanks! Same to you. 😉

    I’m with you. People are entitled to their opinions, but some people cross the line and simply get vicious with it. Now THAT’S crazy!

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  547. Personally, I don’t think Ms. Berry is a beautiful Black woman, nor is she really a beautiful woman, period. Her looks, at best, are somewhat plain for the most part. I find it interesting that, just like a multitude of white actresses have done and will continue to do, Ms. Berry dropped her top in many movie scenes. Don’t you think that a lot of actresses do this so that the attention is drawn away from their plain faces to their large mammaries, whether real or artificial? 😎

    Overall, people like Halle Berry, Lena Horne, Dorothy Dandridge, and even Billie Holiday only cement the erroneous notion that the only beautiful Black women are those that are of mixed-race. 🙄 There are thousands of beautiful, dark-skinned Black women out there who are constantly overlooked by music, movie and TV producers, which is pathetic. The Lindseys, Britneys, Hillarys, and Mileys will always have it made because of the cookie-cutter pop market.
    Or, to quote a line from Family Guy:
    “There’s always a market for hot, white jailbait!”
    Go figure, eh?

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  548. But who is “mixed-race”? And why does it matter anyway? Who is truly “black”? An African? Sorry, that pretty much excludes all of you Americans then, doesn’t it?

    Not that I care either way, it’s just fascinating to watch you Americans to try to segregate people based on the tiny variations of the human genome.

    And I love really dark-skinned BW as well, by the way. Hmm-mm!

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  549. I would actually say that society likes fair complexioned black women, that is not a skin tone exclusive to first generation mixed people.

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  550. on Thu Jun 23rd 2011 at 04:09:40 ThinkblinkThink

    I thought that I was the only person who had similar sentiments about the likes of Halle Berry, among other overhyped, overrated, and unduly idolized celebrities. Berry is a very attractive woman who is one of a plethora of representations of beauty. By my standards, “beautiful” goes too far because it is a label that I bestow on people with excellent character, as well as beauty. I don’t know Berry, so “pretty” or “attractive” is suitable in my opinion. What I find disturbing is the general public’s appetite for the superficial and vacuous vs. substance. In my estimation, Berry is not usually attractive and not even greatly talented. I see her as the sex object who gets paid to be an actress–willing and ready to provide any amount of gratuitous nudity or explicit sex scenes for the “adoring” and less discriminating moviegoer. Even more disturbing is the general public’s lack of independent judgment. Too many people are willing and mindless participants in the media’s force-feeding and brainwashing campaign. They tell us repeatedly who and what are considered “fantastic” or “extraordinary.” Think of People magazine’s absurd edition of “The 50 Most Beautiful People.” Seriously, of all of God’s creations, these are the people that I must fawn over and go ask my plastic surgeon if I can have “lips like hers” or “pecs like his?” Sadly, so many people are conformists and sponges, who if told enough times that someone is the most beautiful or fascinating person, they actually believe this foolishness to the point of obsessive idolization. It is prevalent in the American culture to be unlearned in the art of thinking critically, thinking clearly, and being free of what the powers that be and the masses would have individuals digest and regurgitate. Back to Berry, anyone notice how it’s rarely, if ever, communicated that Berry is actually talented as opposed to “sexy,” “beautiful,” “hot,”… This is telling and frankly insulting. It seems to me that her worth as a Black actress is directly measured by her sex appeal. Her actual proven talent is highly debatable. Yes, I believe that her Oscar win was incredibly suspect, having a pea’s worth to do with her thespian performance (not including the soft porn show). And I wonder that if she could truly act her way out of a paper bag, without the lauded aesthetic factor, would she be “Halle Berry” as she is recognized today. I, for one, am not buying what the media (or Hollywood) is selling.

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  551. yelp is is overated and she lies about being half white for attention. her mom is not 100% white. this is why she looks negroid in the face. not to mention the comsmectic surgry and skin whiting.

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  552. Honestly I think Halle Berry is a very beautiful woman however I do agree that she is NOT the MOST beautiful ”Black woman” in the world. She is biracial with a White mother and a Black father. I think Sanaa Lathan, Sade and Toni Braxton are a lot better looking than Halle Berry. But not Tyra. I don’t find Tyra Banks to be a beautiful woman but she was really pretty woman back as a supermodel. Gabrielle Union is in the same boat as Halle Berry in terms of looks.
    Yes, Kenya Moore is a WHOLE LOT MORE BEAUTIFUL than Halle Berry will ever be! Kenya Moore is a gorgeous chocolate skinned beauty!
    I think Beyonce is a beautiful woman in a lesser degree to Halle Berry and not as beautiful as Halle.
    I agree that it is sad Hollywood puts us Black women in a certain look of beauty:golden, tanned, red or light caramel complexion with long light brown to blond hair and light colored eyes for us Black women. That is NOT the only type of ”Black beauty”. Hollywood doesn’t know what Black beauty is all about. They only use light skinned to mixed girls as examples of ”Black beauty” because they exclude Whiteness and are closer to the Eurocentric standard of beauty. All types of Black women are beautiful from Vanessa Williams to Sanaa Lathan to Gabrielle Union.
    And yes, Maddie Gyenhall, whatever her name is very unattractive and only gets roles in movies because she is a Caucasian woman as well as Cameron Diaz, Gwen Paltrow, etc. I can’t believe Jennifer Aniston was voted the sexiest women alive. She is NOT all that in the least bit! She is NOT a beautiful woman but she is kind of pretty.
    We as Blacks need to stop teaching our sons that White is right. Alot of you guys are only reinforcing what society tells us everyday when we wake up and go to sleep by telling each other that we are ‘too dark” our noses are too wide and crap like that! No wonder our sons go and date White women because they have been taught that they were the most beautiful women ever and that White women are nicer, more docile etc. White women as the epitome of beauty is a lie because women of color are beautiful too and sometimes ALOT more beautiful than their White counterparts too.

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  553. I don’t know where you live, but where I live MOST black women (mind I am pretty race-blind, so I miss most of the the ones who are white looking), one meets on the street are better looking than Halle Berry.

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  554. Teddy,

    Same here. I think its just that Halle Berry looks “white enough” so that the people in power can gush about Black women without actually admitting that Black women as a whole can be beautiful too. It would mess with the “superiority” that White women are supposed to automatically possess. She’s a beautiful woman, a gorgeous woman. But so are Zoe Saldana, Michelle Obama, Ciara and Jenifer Hudson. But people are taught to equate racial characteristics with beauty that two women can have the same exact features and yet one could be called ugly because er skins a little “too dark”. Look at Angelina Jolie, for example, and see how her lips are talked about as her most attractive feature, while on any Black woman they’d be seen as a detriment.

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  555. So true, You are right, Ace. It is because Halle Berry looks ”White enough”. Thanks Teddy, for your input. So you would probably think I look better than Halle Berry if you saw me. Just probably.Yes, I agree with you Teddy and Ace. There is Black women who are more beautiful than Halle Berry such as Kenya Moore. Kenya Moore is gorgeous! Kenya Moore will throw Halle Berry off of her ”beauty” wagon if society had the common sense to promote her in movies and commericials. She will also throw Beyonce, Alicia Keys, Mariah Carey, Tyra Banks, Vanessa Williams, Paula Patton, Rihanna(who I don’t find to be all that pretty along with Tyra and Mariah) and other light skinned/mixed women off of their ”beauty” wagons. They don’t promote Kenya Moore, Patricia Oluchi or Gabrielle Union as much in movies and commericals because they are a threat to the Eurocentric standard of beauty. Those three women I listed are gorgeous and would break down that Eurocetric standard of beauty because they are so beautiful and Black beauty is the best kind of beauty. Those White people controlling the entertainment industry and media know that Black women are beautiful. But White is right in their minds and they want to keep it that way. Halle Berry makes them comfortable in their own skin because she is half White and they can use it to an advantage to their agenda that I order for a Black woman to be attractive, she has to be mixed with White or something else. In society’s eyes, White is right, White women are the most beautiful thing to walk on two legs, everything White must be right becuase it is White. White. White. White. Society worships everything White.

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  556. I think that tis is a little judgemental but it is a site to state you opinon.

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  557. Sometimes I contemplate if folks truly take time to write something original, or are they only just dishing out words to fill a site. This surely doesn’t fit that mold. Thank you for taking the time to write with awareness. At times I look at a page and question whether they even proofread it.Fantastic work with this article.

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  558. Black is beautiful.
    So is Halle Berry but she is not full Black and one of the main reasons why she is considered a ”beautiful Black woman” is because she is half White. White means beauty, status etc in this society and all societies around the world.
    I mistake:Tyra Banks, Stacey Dash, Mariah Carey, Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, Nia Long, Meagan Good, etc are all beautiful Black women. Black women of all shades are beautiful. I m saying this because I was rejected by a Black guy because he said that he likes White girls not Black girls.
    Peace

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  559. Most of the women that abagond mentions as beautiful have almost European like features anyway so I find that contradictory.
    I prefer those beautiful black women who have not been selected by the white or black media, cause the black American media have been just as bad, when it comes to showing beautiful black women as the white media.
    In most of their films, magazines, tv shows and music videos,the black American media usually show attractive black women if they are either lightskinned or almost European looking.
    But there is a deeper problem not being highlighted and that is that people in a black and white race relationship who go on to have a child together, that that child is not recognised in white society as being bi-racial or being called bi-racial but is classed as if fully black.
    You should as a society be making bi-racial people feel proud of coming from a black and white background how can some one who is the product of black and white parents have all their attributes attributed to their black side alone, how can we ignore or take away a white parents contribution, would president Obama be where he is if he didn’t have a white parent, would halle berry or sade look the way they do if you take out the white in them and are black people so desparate for black success that we need to claim the success of someone who has a white parent.
    You can learn alot from the UK where mixed race people are proud to be called mixed race and prefer it, I think they find it to be a racial bonding terminology.

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  560. The problem with Abagond’s premise is that it is a myth that beauty “is in they’re of the beholder.” Sure, maybe your Aunt Alice and you boyfriend think you’re gorgeous, but if people do not come up to you in the street on a regular basis and stop you to tell you so, if there is no wide consensus on your beauty, you don’t make the cut! This beholder BS is a myth to make everyone feel as though they, too, can be thought of as beautiful. Study after study has proven that physical beauty is scientifically measurable. Even accounting for different features, the same basic proportions of beauty apply to ALL racial and ethnic groups. Two month old babies will consistently stare longer at people widely considered to be more beautiful than those less so. Why? Babies have no conscious sense of beauty. Yet, they stare longer at beautiful people. So, a couple of people on the planet think Halle doesn’t make the most beautiful list? So what? According to science, they are wrong.

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  561. Correction “the eye of the beholder…”

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  562. It’s nice to know black racism and prejudice is alive and well. Until this very moment, I did not know that Halle Berry was biracial. I just thought she was a beautiful black women. I have always envied the fact that because her face was so stunning, she could wear the short hairstyles that I love and can’t pull off. Abigond should be ashamed. “of course, but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white” this is an ignorant, racist comment.

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  563. @ Joy

    How is it an ignorant, racist comment?

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  564. Well, I personally think ALL of the women named here are EQUALLY BEAUTIFUL…. and see no need to get caught up in the “Who’s Who” like our White Brothers and Sisters…….But my thing is this…… The SAME THING being said here about Halle Berry and Beyoncé… could also be said about BARACK OBAMA !!! Yes, I said it !!!!!! Because Barack Obama is “HYPED” in the political world the EXACT SAME WAY U say Beyoncé and Halle are hyped in the music world and Hollywood…. and it all has to do with their “TONED DOWN BLACKNESS”…….. There are PLENTY of BLACK MEN and BLACK WOMEN who are MORE QUALIFIED to be President of the United States, AND OTHER BLACK PEOPLE RAN FOR IT IN 2008 !!!!!!! but Barack was more “ACCEPTABLE” and more “DIGESTIBLE” to WHITE AMERICA… the same way HALLE & BEYONCE are….. So, there’s NO POINT in beating this dead horse….. What WE AS BLACK PEOPLE need to do is start CELEBRATING ALL of our history makers !!!!! Because THAT’S what HALLE, BEYONCE and BARACK are, HISTORY MAKERS !!!!!! and because of THEIR SUCCESS, all those other people U named here ARE getting more opportunities…..

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  565. Halle Berry is one of the most beautiful woman in the world… You guys certainly sound color struck and ignorant! A majority of people obviously think that she is the most beautiful woman in the world also or else that sure wouldn’t be her title… Let me guess??? The one who’s hating on Her must be a darker skinned person?? When I was younger and growing up I always had issues w darken skinned woman they would judge before I could even speak

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  566. Those other woman are beautiful too,but people have preferences and most men and woman notice Halle Berry the most as being gorgeous so I think she deserves that title! Yes she is lighter skinned but at the end of the day she still Black!

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  567. I don’t think any of these women you mention is as close to perfect as Halle Berry is. Maybe you’re putting more emphasis on the face. Halle Berry’s body genes though are just as impressive, sexy but not overly so, matches well her “sweet” kind of beauty. Like say Salma Hayek’s less sweet beauty matches well her super hot body. Overall Berry is a perfectly balanced mix of sweet beauty and hotness. And has the added bonus of aging very well too so overall definitely one of the most impresive female specimens ever! (well of those who got famous anyway).

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  568. “I generally like women with beautiful eyes and lips and a thick figure.”

    I know this is a few years out, but I feel compelled to say something.

    What IS it with so many Black men into the “thick figure”? It just seems like I’ve noticed all my life, which is MOST Black men seemed to be programmed like robots. It’s as though if you do not like thick women you’re not Black. Really? Not every man likes Jennifer Lopez or Beyoncé. There are many Black men who feel they are TOO thick.

    Anyway, I will be shocked if, as a culture, we demonstrate independent thought.

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  569. Lamar

    Let me get this straight. You are upset because as a black man you feel he is programed to like “thick” women and feel he lacks independent thought because he is not into thinner women or less “thick.” By any chance are you slow? Because you can’t be seriously arguing someones opinion or preference makes them unable to have independent thought.

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  570. […] Halle berry is not the most beautiful black woman in the […]

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  571. All I see are a bunch of haters. To compare Tyra Banks, Gabriella union, Angels basset to her is madness! Clearly you have no eyes. Plus you used and old photo (still beautiful) nothing recent to try & strengthen your point.No one said she’s the most beautiful – she is one of the most beautiful. She is in her late 40’s and can take off all your boyfriends. Yes I said it! The plenty “black beautiful” women you know arent famous so dead points people. & to start up rumours about crap that might not be true (her being loose) just shows desperation. There are many beautiful black woman & Halle is GORGUEOUS! Dont undermine by calling her “pretty”. Stop hating people, live your lives & spread positivity.

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  572. Halle berry is NOT black. What in the world is up with you black Americans and the one-drop bs? Inferiority complex? Seriously, you guys need to quit it with your insecurities. Smh.

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  573. @ zimz

    Did you miss this part or the post?

    Hollywood seems to push Halle Berry as the height of black beauty. I mean, she is a black beauty, of course, but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.”

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  574. Of course not. My comment is to black Americans, in general. Especially what they try to portray in the media. I live in Ghana and the UK on and off and believe me when I tell you that more than half of the women they portray in the black American media as “black” would never be seen as one in West Africa(where most of your African ancestors came from). Not in a million years. Africans did not set foot on American soil looking like Halle/Tyra/Beyonce/Vanessa Williams.
    And today, people who look like the latter are STILL being called black because the black Americans allow it. And it’s really sad that there are many black Americans who won’t find a black woman pretty unless she looks like one of them(mixed). The one-drop rule will continue to stay as long as black Americans allow it and mixed people will keep on winning till then.

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  575. @ zimz

    Yes. That is because in the diaspora, the evolving definition of “Blackness” took on different connotative meanings as it met different circumstances in the New World. There is nothing strange about that… It is not necessary that every perception of what is “Black” should agree with your own.

    We often say that “Race is a social construct.”
    Do you also believe this?

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  576. And today, people who look like the latter are STILL being called black because the black Americans allow it. And it’s really sad that there are many black Americans who won’t find a black woman pretty unless she looks like one of them(mixed).”

    This part has been changing a lot just in my lifetime. For example, Lupita doesn’t seem to be having ANY trouble becoming a heartthrob among many here in America (including myself!)

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  577. @ zimz

    In the US the One Drop Rule is mainly imposed by Whites. They are like you: they make a big deal about racial purity and will not accept you as one of their own unless you seem racially pure. Black Americans are generally far more accepting.

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  578. On race being a social construct: in some ways, yes. In some ways, no.
    In addition, I do understand that one’s view about what “black” is in the American diaspora is somewhat distorted due to history. But there are still facts. Your history isn’t what determines your race. Especially if your phenotype contradicts what you say you are. For example, Naomi Campbell can say she’s black(even though she’s mixed) and I’d believe it. Because she does, in fact, look like a black woman. But someone with features like Mariah Carey cannot say she’s black without getting the side eye from actual black people. In the UK, mixed people are seen as just that. The only place that you hear about someone with features similar to Vanessa Williams and Mariah Carey being called black is America. Europe? Not really.

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  579. Lupita is very beautiful. No doubt. But let’s be honest. She wasn’t recognized as one until the white Media broadcasted her. She would not have gotten this far if she had started out in the black American entertainment community. Black Americans did not start this change. And I think that is very, very sad.

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  580. @ Zimz

    Black Americans generally do have whitewashed ideas of beauty, it is true, but it is NOT as whitewashed as what Hollywood pushes. Hollywood is owned and run by Whites, so get it straight.

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  581. @ zimz

    Lupita is very beautiful. No doubt. But let’s be honest. She wasn’t recognized as one until the white Media broadcasted her. She would not have gotten this far if she had started out in the black American entertainment community.”

    Well, I’m not sure how much you know about Hollywood (as a UK Ghanian) and how it works, but allow me to make some short explanation of it to you.

    Lupita would not get very far until the White Media broadcast her in any case, because the White Media is pretty much the “Mainstream Media” in the States. The Black Media is a niche media, and does not have the same power to produce, promote, and distribute, as does their White counterpart. Therefore, the very definition of “becoming a big star” is very closely tied to being accepted in the mainstream (a.k.a. White Media).

    But lets be honest (as you say). Lupita’s crossover role was in Twelve Years a Slave based on a book written by Solomon Northup (Black American), that was adapted to a screenplay by John Ridley’s (Black American). Lupita was selected for the role by the Director, Steve McQueen (Black British). She was then lauded by every major Black American celebrity that I can think of, including Oprah Winfrey. She’s been a hit on every major Black blog and entertainment website that I have read. So… what are exactly you talking about?

    I think that you may be mistaken… about a great many things.

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  582. “In the US the One Drop Rule is mainly imposed by Whites.” – The one drop rule was abolished several years ago. But there are many black Americans today who accept/agree with it and are strong advocates of it today.

    “They are like you: they make a big deal about racial purity and will not accept you as one of their own unless you seem racially pure.”

    For selfish and bigotted reasons (eg. reluctance to share wealth and hatred for the black race).

    “Black Americans are generally far more accepting.”

    And this is detrimental to black Americans. Black people are harmed when half white/mixed people are constanstly and overwhelmingly choosen to represent Blacks in media and US whites choose half whites/mixed people as their “black” business employees, models/actors, “black” presidents. This discrimination leads to black Americans being marginalized and kept politically invisible and financially disadvantaged.

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  583. “Lupita would not get very far until the White Media broadcast her in any case, because the White Media is pretty much the “Mainstream Media” in the States……”

    I do not think you understood my point. The black American media was NOT advertizing/hyping women with Lupita’s looks as desirable until the white media did so. It is no lie that the standard of black American beauty in the black American media had always been someone lighter with long, looser curled hair.
    If you disagree with that, well that’s your view. I am giving info based on my experiences, what I’ve seen, the things I have heard, the people I have interacted with and what I’ve read.

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  584. A correction, if I may, Steve McQueen is British.

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  585. @Zimz
    Sadly I happen to agree with you. Lupita wouldn’t have gone that far if she started out in Black American coon media because light skin women such as Beyonce are the standard of beauty. However I am glad that Lupita Nyong’O is getting the respect and admiration that she deserves in the media. Lupita is gorgeous and such a talented actress. I wish more Black actresses such as Gabrielle Union would get the credit that they deserve too but I am glad that the media is recognizing Lupita for her beauty and talents.

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  586. @Lamar,

    Preach, Brother! You are correct that a large segment of the black community worships thickness and huge behinds. Funny, I look at pictures of my mother and her friends from years ago and not one was “thick”. They were all slim and beautiful. All of them got married, stayed married and had healthy children. I never heard any of my mother’s friends or their husbands complain that they weren’t thick enough.

    One of the results of this monolithic view (largely promoted by the black media) is that black, (and now many white women who are into black men) are having surgery to turn themselves into cartoonish versions of what they think black men want.

    The other issue with “thickness” is that it is not sustainable throughout a woman’s lifetime. Once youth is gone (and most of the time long before) the midsection catches up with those big thighs and she turns into the apple shape with a large upper body, big thighs and thin legs that many of us BWs develop. I am seeing more and more BWs with this type of body. At the very least, kudos to Halle for keeping her waistline!

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  587. A correction, if I may, Steve McQueen is British.

    Rats!!

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  588. @king

    LOL!

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  589. @ King

    I corrected the McQueen comment.

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  590. @Adeen,

    I agree, Adeen. I think Lupita is every, single bit as gorgeous as Halle and I am delighted to see her succeeding across all media. It’s about time.

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  591. @ zimz

    I do not think you understood my point. The black American media was NOT advertizing/hyping women with Lupita’s looks as desirable until the white media did so.”

    Well again, I think thats a harder call to make because most of the people you would have heard of would probably have been from through the mainstream White media. Bear in mind that there has never really been a huge Black film media in the U.S. I mean exactly who is “The Black film media?”

    If you are talking about people like Spike Lee, John Singleton, Robert Townsend, Tyler Perry and Berry Jenkins, then I challenge you to look at each to their bodies of work to date, and point out where they have favored casting lighter skinned actresses. All of these contemporary Black directors have use actresses in a range of shades, but most of their star actresses have been dark to medium toned.

    But if I am wrong, please point it out factually. Point out how these directors has been favoring light-skinned mulatto actresses, and by what percentage have they been doing it. Not single examples but trends and percentages.

    It is no lie that the standard of black American beauty in the black American media had always been someone lighter with long, looser curled hair.

    This is true, but you have to reach back a ways to find a real predominance of those kind of actresses. And you will find that the bias was uniform across both White and Black media, where you discover it. Even reaching back, you have actresses like Diahann Carroll, Cicely Tyson, Pam Grier, and many others I could name. I’m not saying that the light skinned bias didn’t exist, I mean I remember it growing up. But it was never a universal rule, and to say that somehow the Black media was responsible for it, while the White media was responsible for correcting it is just patently incorrect.

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  592. Thank you for the correction Abagond.

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  593. @king

    “But it was never a universal rule, and to say that somehow the Black media was responsible for it, while the White media was responsible for correcting it is just patently incorrect.”

    In no way did I say that. My point is that the black american society partly plays a role in the light skinned bias by going along with it. Neither do i think it would have gotten as bad/far as it did had the black American society opposed it as much as they should have. And I’m stressing on the fact that the “change” beginning to occur(Lupita) was begun by the white media. Which I think is sad.

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  594. Oh, I should also mention actress Danai Gurira who is currently playing of the wildly successful American TV series, The Living Dead.

    A LOT of people, both Black and White think she’s very hot. I first saw her in The Visitor and couldn’t take my eyes off of her!

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  595. Rats!!

    It’s okay King. Even a Sith Lord can’t get it right all the time.

    I think that you may be mistaken… about a great many things.

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  596. @ zimz

    “The one drop rule was abolished several years ago.”

    When was that? What are you talking about?

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  597. @ zimz

    I think you are “victim blaming” now.

    You make it sound as if Black American society is responsible for their own brainwashing. Are you saying that after centuries of abuse, violence, and deprivation—all seeking to ingrain the idea the Whiteness is superior to Blackness—that Black Americans should have been capable of being completely untouched by it’s effects?

    And I’m stressing on the fact that the “change” beginning to occur(Lupita) was begun by the white media. Which I think is sad.”

    But as I have already pointed out Lupita was chosen and mentored by BLACK people. Where do you keep getting the idea that White people were responsible? I agree that she has been very well received by Hollywood (after the fact) and by the White media. But it’s not as if she was cast in some White movie, written by a White author and directed buy a White director. I don’t understand why you keep saying this?

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  598. Haha Legion you caught it 🙂

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  599. Nyong’o could be in for meteoric success now if the following endorsement by People Mafazine is any sort of indicator. You’ll notice that the overwhelming majority of people who attained a #1 position on their “most beautiful” list, have had/still have stellar careers. Lupita Nyong’o is the most recent addition to that list.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_%28magazine%29#People_Magazine.27s_100_Most_Beautiful_People

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  600. 😉

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  601. @ zimz

    I agree with King. I do not see where you get this idea that Whites discovered Lupita and made her a beauty. From what I remember, she was popular among Blacks when it was still Lupita Who? among Whites. She rose to stardom in a Black-made film.

    Timeline: On this blog she was first mentioned in December 2013. Her beauty was remarked upon right away. White commenters did not start talking about her till AFTER she won an Oscar in March. People magazine named her the most beautiful woman in April.

    If you look at Jet magazine covers from the 1950s, the standard of beauty was near-white. Skin lightening was still very common, natural hairstyles were rare. All of that changed in the 1960s when there was a marked shift towards a blacker sort of beauty – “Black is beautiful” and all that. THAT came from WITHIN the Black community. Black ideas of beauty have whitened somewhat since then, but it is nothing like it was in the 1950s.

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  602. @ zimz

    Just so you know, Black Americans, like other people of colour in the US, are NOT in control of their image:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/the-bet-fallacy/

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  603. @Abagond

    “When was that? What are you talking about?”

    The one drop rule was made illegal in the U.S. in 1967 by the Supreme Court.

    Anyway, as far as the Lupita discussion is concerned, I do not believe we will come to an agreement.
    It is best to agree to disagree.

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  604. @Yasmine

    I agree with your sentiments.

    @Legion

    Thanks for the link. I haven’t been on here for a very long time and nice to see and hear from you again. I am glad Lupita is recognized for her beauty and talent

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  605. Thank you Adeen, good to hear from you too!

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  606. @ Abagond & King

    I am surprised here that nether of you seem to get the valid point Zimz is making.

    The meteoric rise of Lupita Nyong’o in the dominated white arena of white Western beauty is no accident or something NOT purposely planned. If it is white America who dictates and controls the image of how beauty is defined. Then of course they are responsible here too.

    The fact that Lupita Nyong’o did not emerge in the traditional way we have come to expect from Hollywood – the way Halle Berry emerged – Conforming to some accepted colour standard and playing whore or mammy film roles does not mean the controllers of the white Western beauty standard have had a change of heart?

    How many equivalent Black women with Lupita Nyong’o figure and complexion already exist in America? Is she the only one? Does this mean we are now going to see more of these same Black women recognized and awarded the same status?

    Call me cynical but somehow I don’t think so! This is a tokenistic gesture. (Even Lupita Nyong’o is still conscious enough to be aware of this – so far)

    So Lupita Nyong’o has been awarded her status for a reason. The question is why now? and for what purpose?

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  607. It seems that other commenters understand what is irking Zimz, but I am not sure whether it is one of or a combination of the following:

    1. Hollywood (and other popular media) stereotypes of what constitutes a beautiful black woman is often one that has a parent that identifies as a white person or otherwise looks phenotypically mixed.

    2. Black Americans have internalized the stereotypes promoted by Hollywood and other popular media so that they believe that one must be part European or other non-African to be black and beautiful.

    3. Black Americans (or at least the Black media) sit by passively while the popular media promotes the stereotype that beautiful black women are actually racially mixed, or allow people who are racially mixed to represent in any way, the “black community”.

    4. The one drop rule no longer applies. Mixed people should be labelled as mixed and not labelled as black.

    5. People like Halle Berry or Obama, who might choose to self-identify as black, should not be permitted to self-identify as black.

    6. Race is only partially a social construct

    7. if your phenotype contradicts what you say you are, they you are NOT what you say you are.

    His arguments look all over the place and it is difficult to pinpoint what he is driving at. Assuming that it is one of the above, some comments:

    1. There is no doubt that the popular media, largely in control by whites, promotes to some extent that people regarded as “beautiful” and assigned to a racial category are often mixed race. No one is disagreeing with this. Even media outside Hollywood and white-controlled popular media do this too (including Abagond himself). They don’t only do this to blacks (look at the Most Beautiful East Asian Men post).

    2. To some extent, some of these images may have been internalized, but as Abagond suggested, not all black Americans have internalized this to the 100% level that you purport. Many, if not most do recognize beauty can be found in all degrees of mixture, even in those with no known European admixture.

    3.
    Well, for one thing, much of the Black media is still controlled to large extent by whites, so I am not sure what you refer to exactly as “black media”. But with regard to permitting racially mixed people to represent the black community, there are many issues here, e.g.,

    – the overwhelming majority of black Americans are racially mixed. Depending on where in the US one might be, the typical black person may have 15-20% European ancestry (more in certain metro areas) and many may also have some Native American or Asian ancestry as well. It will be next to impossible to source representative blacks in the USA only from the pool of persons who are solely descendant from, say, West African native peoples.

    – You could draw a line, say, only allowing persons more than 75% Sub-saharan (sorry if that word makes a few cringe) Africa, and we could test everyone to make sure they people in the right category (ie, black, or mixed black). It means that we would have to strip Henry Louis Gates, Jr. of his job as Director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research, because, he simply is not black enough (~50%). He has the double whammy of having both his Y-DNA haplogroup and Mt-DNA haplogroup point back to Europe.

    – “Black” in the USA has never meant purely of African descent. Even those solely descendant of slaves are almost certain to be mixed. If we use black in the USA to refer to persons descendant from black slaves, then they surely will be of multiracial background. Black does not mean African and never did.

    – Maybe term bothers you. Would you feel better if we called black Americans of African-mixed Americans? Then we can NEVER forget that blacks are actually mixed. But, there have been cases where DNA testing has revealed that some black Americans are not African at all, despite being raised as, and taught that one was of African descent. Recently a case hit the news that a person who was of South Asian descent had thought all along that he was of African descent.

    4. The one-drop rule has never been a fixed rule, but more like a rule of thumb, and has shifted over time.
    It did not apply in the 19th century prior to Jim Crow. They distinguished Mulattoes and Quadroons from Negroes. The USA migrated to the One drop rule as a way to divide up people in the USA so that they can enforce Jim Crow laws (and account for Mulattoes marrying each other, or marrying different shades of people and having children). Still, it was not a strict rule. Many, if not hundreds of thousands, once classified as black, decided to pass as white. Some passed as white for some things (e.g., to get a job) yet go home to a black community or raise a black family.

    Given the activism in the late 20th and early 21st century to recognize multiracialism, the one drop rule has become more of an anachronistic rule of thumb. Many choose to identify as multiracial and categorically reject both the one drop rule and the tick the box mentality. Or they might identify as multiracial for some things, black for others. There is no more fixed rule.

    5. We may choose to legislate ethnic identity, but it will never work that way. And “black” in America is an ethnic identity. It has never been strictly determined by racial percentages, despite even the one drop rule.
    If we do not allow people to self-identify, but need to assign them to racial categories, how else would one propose to do that? Zimz rejected the one drop rule method. Some countries use race of the father or mother to do this, but they also creates other types of problems. Singapore used to use the race of the father to do that, but we ended up with cases of persons who were 5/8 Indian, 1/8 Malay, 1/8 European, yet classified as Chinese. If they had married someone who was also 5/8 Indian, 1/8 Malay, 1/8 European & 1/8 Chinese, but classified as Indian (or European), then it would be registered as an interracial marriage. They revised their method in 2010, but it is still not perfect.

    Or we can use “mixed” to classify people, but that is just as meaningless as using “black”. To use

    6. Race has always been a social construct
    Even the way that Zimz uses the term “race” is purely a social use, ie, how people should be allowed to represent themselves in society. Isn’t that exactly what a social construct is? If we were using it for biological purposes, then we should look at individual DNA coding, but even that is not a racial thing. No race could have all its members identifies by a specified set of DNA markers.

    Besides this, different places use race in different ways, and the meanings change over time. The USA did not even have the term “Asian” before the late 1970s. The marriage between a Chinese-American and a Filipino-American would have been labelled an interracial marriage before that (even if the Filipino American was partially of Chinese descent) because before, they were separate racial categories.

    7. Phenotype
    There is no objective way to determine phenotype. That is a very subjective thing.
    Any of us who have had people arguing in front of us about where we belong according to perceived phenotype knows exactly what this means.
    It means that siblings with the same parents would be classified differently from each other.
    Ex: W E.B. Dubois and his wife were both multiracial blacks. They might have met the definition of “mixed” that Zimz asserts. Yet they had a daughter that looked to most people as decidedly more African than either parent. Should she have the right to identify as “black”, even though she might only be only 50-55% African ancestry? What about if she had a sister that looked to most people more European than either parent? Should she be forced to assume a different racial label? Can a black woman castigate her own sister for daring to call herself black? If Naomi Campbell’s had a sister that somehow looked more Chinese and European and less black, would she be of a different “race” and necessarily socially recognized as such? Or if Naomi Campbell decided to label herself as Chinese or English, should any of us have any problem with that?

    In Brasilia, a university tried to implement an affirmative action programme to give blacks racial preference, but they had to classify everyone first. They had cases where identical twins would be respectively classified as “black” or “white” by different enumerators.

    Using pheonotype subjectively evaluated leads to very problematic results.

    ******
    We all plaud the idea that one does not have to be more European by ancestry (or to use Zimz’s concept of more European looking) to be more beautiful. Even Abagond said this about Hollywood’s image of Halle Berry:

    but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty;

    So he does recognize that she might get more recognition as beautiful from whites because she has a white mother. But Abagond made it very clear that this is not a reason why many blacks would consider her beautiful.I don’t think there is any disagreement there.

    This allows for people to find Lupita Nyong’O beautiful without contradicting anything in the post.

    Yet, when Zimz goes as far as saying, “How Halle Berry DARE to call herself black!” or “How black Americans DARE allow Halle Berry to use a “black” label!” for various social reasons (e.g., internalized racism or Hollywood promotion of beauty images) yet insist that race is not primarily a social construct, but determined by subjective phenotype evaluation, he, on the one hand, starts to become self-contradictory and pointless and on the other hand, very harsh in the way that he dictates on how people may identify themselves.

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  608. This is not the first time that the “white ” media has spoon-fed us images of black beauty. Naomi Campbell and NaomiI Sims were celebrated long before Lupita came on the scene. So… The white media is not setting any precedents.

    I simply think that Lupita is undeniably beautiful, photogenic and charismatic, starred in an important movie and has a great publicist. I think it’s a cause for celebration, not suspicion. I sincerely doubt that there is a conference room of white media execs sitting around all day deciding which black actress will be deemed “beautiful”.

    And yeah, if Lupita was a Jane Doe checkout clerk at Wal-Mart she probably wouldn’t be getting so much play. Then again, neither would Halle.

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  609. Sorry, I didn’t finish a sentence in #5 above

    Or we can use “mixed” to classify people, but that is just as meaningless as using “black”. “Mixed” then becomes a racial label with a life of its own. To use Singapore again as an example, the term Eurasian was created to refer to those persons who were partially of European descent (usually along a distant paternal line), but could not be classified as European, as they historically had a different set of social traditions and organization from those labelled as “European”. Sometimes they might only be, say, 1/16 European ancestry, but because they had a paternal ancestor labelled as Eurasian, that was carried down the paternal line.

    I knew a Singaporean born woman with a white father and mixed Asian (Malay, Bugis, Indian, chinese) mother, but the Singaporean government categorically rejected her application to switch her race to Eurasian because she was not of “Eurasian” descent. They asked her if her family practices any “Eurasian” traditions!

    If we decide to separate “black” and “mixed black” into 2 separate racial categories, we will have the problem of categorizing people again and get touchy if people want to switch their racial classification.

    The USA DID use to have Negro, mulatto, quadroon, octoroon classifications. But I don’t see how they could ever go back to that.

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  610. @jefe

    1. On race being a social construct: I stated that in some ways, it is. In others it is not. It seems like my words were being twisted.
    2. I said that if Naomi Campbell told me she’s black, I’d believe it even though she is mixed. If Naomi Cambell had a sister that looked phenotypically Asian, that wouldn’t change that fact that they are BOTH mixed.
    3. “Mixed black” does not exist. You CANNOT be mixed and black at the same time. You can either be one or the other(have you ever heard anybody say “mixed white”?). One CAN be mixed with black. But that does not make you black.
    4. “Or we can use “mixed” to classify people, but that is just as meaningless as using “black””
    This statement is funny. Because I do not see you make mention of how the use of the term “white” or “Asian” to classify people is meaningless. Also, if a black person and a white person procreate, how in the world does the offspring come out “black” when 50% of it is non-black? I do not get the logic in that. In addition, a substancial number of “black” Americans came about due to people of mixed race procreating with others of mixed heritage. Like I stated earlier, in the U.K. the term “mixed” is used to officially classify people of mixed heritage because that is what they are. Mixed. And there have been NO problems with that.
    5. You do not have to be fully black to look it. Naomi Campbell, Kelly Rowland and Bria Myles all look fully black even though they do have admixtures. One CANNOT have blonde hair and blue/green eyes and then say s/he is black with a straight face.
    6. Naomi Campbell did not start her career in the U.S. Her success is therefore, not relevant in this debate.
    7. In case you did not know, due the one drop rule, whites are free to openly discriminate against blacks by hiring mostly biracial or mostly white people and calling them “black”(especially with general business hiring and “affirmative action” and “black” scholarship positions) that often leave blacks right in the shadows, right where whites want them(take the history behind the Rwandan genocide, for example). It’s incredibly sneaky and clever, the way whites abuse the word “black” to keep people who are mostly or fully black from accessing power. It is very sad that there are still a few black people who have not awakened to this one drop rule game and instead, embrace it with a high level of passion.

    That would be the end of my debate. In the end, we all agree to disagree. Have a nice day. 🙂

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  611. I agree with you zimz, cause I’m from the UK and people with black and white parents have no problem with calling themselves mixed race and are proud of their mixed heritage, I should know as I have 11 mixed race nephews and nieces and I grew up in areas where it was common to go out with white girls so most of the black boys I knew or lived around have now gone on to have mixed race children.
    I believe that being called mixed race has helped broken down many racial barriers in the UK as some of the young black men had kids with white females from racist areas now if the one drop philosophy was universally adopted by UK racist many moons ago then the families of white girls with mixed race babies would be less likely to accept the child, as it would simply being seen as black no matter how much white it had in it but being only half black is easier to accept than fully black cause they are after all half white. besides usually you can tell if someone has a white parent from someone whose parents are both black, as Most mixed race people have that lighter tone and less of those black features and white people in the UK I don’t know about the US think that mixed race people have a higher percentage of attractiveness than others and that the kids are gorgeous.
    Yes some of those black American directors mentioned in an earlier blog may have used some dark skin actress’s but you will find that they were usually either average looking, unattractive, old or obese, you will hardly ever find them using attractive dark skin black women with black features in their productions most of the attractive black women in black American films were usually light skinned or with almost European features.
    I used to be affected by not seeing attractive dark skin black women with black features on TV, movies, advertisements, magazines and music videos particularly when I knew there was many out there, it used to frustrate me more and all you ever saw and still see is endless attractive white women plus only those attractive black women who are light skinned or with more western features but then being a Christian it dawned on me supposed black women all were put on the pedestal like white women just look at how white women are sexualised look at the films look at how liberal and debauched they’ve become would you really want black women to behave in the same way as white women do, black women would be seen as sexual objects wanted as a trophy black men wouldn’t stand a chance, I’m glad black women are not as white women are, there special.

    .

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  612. Ms Berry is undoubtedly beautiful, but for me she just has too much of the template Hollywood actress thing going on.

    When I was a kid, Nichelle Nichols from Star Trek made quite an impression on me. More recently, singer Heather Small and Nigerian-British actress Wunmi Mosaku have looked very nice. Oh, and mustn’t forget Chaka Khan in her Rufus days.

    I’m not terribly moved by classical or mainstream consensual “beauty”, slender model figures or seemingly sculpted faces. I prefer what I would call “striking” looks to those preferred by Hollywood or glossy magazines. I like real faces and real bodies.

    I also find it hard to separate character from physical attractiveness. If I find out that someone is a cruel or unpleasant person then any attraction evaporates. Naomi Campbell is an example: she’s far too “modelly” for my tastes, but she did seem pretty in a contrived way. However, since I learned some of the things she has said and done, I wouldn’t give her a second glance if she walked by me in the street.

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  613. Halle Berry?

    Don’t make me laugh; everybody knows Jayne Mansfield was the most beautiful black woman that ever lived.

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  614. I was in a room full of white guys jerking off over Marilyn Monroe and I said Jayne Mansfield was not only hotter, but also smarter and more talented. One of the white males responded that Mansfields “negroid features” betray her racial origins and thats why Hollywood Jews promoted her.

    I had never heard this before? and none of the other white people in the room challenged him?

    He is a top shelf, very smart, high level white supremacist so I can’t just dismiss his comment. Does anyone have an opinion regarding the grounds of his claim?

    Ive since noticed with white people that they either really love her or really hate her.

    Whats that about?

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  615. thwack

    I think that you will do anything to bring attention to yourself

    Why didnt you post this on the Marilyn Monroe thread?

    (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/marilyn-monroe/)

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  616. Dear Omnipresent, I have a suggestion for you: “don’t hate the player, hate the game.”

    Now to address your question:

    #1. The thread topic concerns the most beautiful black woman without defining what a black woman is.

    #2. If the smartest, most powerful white people (white supremacists) decide to hang all black women from trees, and you get hung; you are a black woman; it matters not what you look like, your DNA test… this is what white supremacy means.

    3. You are the one bringing attention to me; please stop.

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  617. on Sat Sep 27th 2014 at 17:20:35 King of Trouble

    Halle Berry is kind of Cute but if you were looking for sexy way too many other black women take the lead.

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  618. thwack

    #2. If the smartest, most powerful white people (white supremacists) decide to hang all black women from trees, and you get hung; you are a black woman; it matters not what you look like, your DNA test… this is what white supremacy means

    Wow. You must be seriously lacking in intelligence if you think that white supremacists are the smartest and most powerful lmao.

    Btw, I dont need to bring attention to you – but I will be good enough to point out to you that the kind of attention you are bringing to yourself is making you look ridiculous. Please stop.

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  619. Halle Berry is a beautiful woman but this is just a one dimensional perspective of black beauty there are other dimensions of black beauty as well.

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  620. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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  621. Mary said:

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Hell, yes. Such a cliche, but so true.

    The ladies who make an impression on me leave my friends cold, and vice versa.

    I kind of object to having certain standards of beauty dictated to me by a media run by rich, privileged scum.

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  622. Yeah. I am more of an Angela Basset or Kerry Washington fan myself. I think they are two beautiful black women.

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  623. I think Halle is pretty, but the main problem here is that there is apparently only one black woman allowed to be seen as pretty by the “mainstream”. As if she’s the only one. First, it was Halle. Then, idk, Zoe Saldana? And now it’s Lupita Nyong’o. Don’t get me wrong, they are all pretty, and I am particularly happy for Lupita because it’s great to see a darker skinned black woman with short natural hair as beautiful.

    The trouble is, all of these ladies were the only ones hailed as pretty by the mainstream. I like Lupita, I really do, but I’d love if there could be at more black women hailed as universally pretty by the mainstream at any given time. Not that they need mainstream (white) acceptance or anything, but it’s just tokenism to have only one.

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  624. Mira
    but I’d love if there could be at more black women hailed as universally pretty by the mainstream at any given time.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    Why do you need other people to cosign on women you think are beautiful? I started collecting photos of beautiful black women back in 2005 (largely due to dissatisfaction with hollywood) and I still ain’t finished. In addition, if you have a digital camera, a laptop and some decent editing software, you can go find a black girl near you and take beautiful photos of her.

    You used to need money to do this. Now all you need is skill.

    Practice makes perfect.

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  625. Hey Sharina, is that you in your avatar?

    Whats above that dress?

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  626. I’m like you thwack I’ve started collecting pictures of beautiful black women with black features who we do not see in the main stream cause of the same thing, but not just dissatisfaction with Hollywood but also with the TV, music videos , street advertisement, newspaper advertisements’ and most magazines.
    But its not just black women look at Latino’s most of the women they show in American shows, Movies and advertisement are those of European or mixed decent they never show those with Amerindian features the indigenous people of the Americas( even though they too migrate to America from Latin America) in fact even in most of those Latin American countries their media is dominated by those of European decent( who have most of the money) therefore beauty is judged by how European you look.
    In India most Bollywood films and magazines show mainly light skin women with slim noses and in China they too show only beautiful women with narrow noses (something that the American media does as well, in their depiction of beautiful Chinese women) even though a lot of Chinese don’t have slim noses just look at their main male kung Fu stars over the years, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jet Li amongst others, all have fuller nasal features.
    Its a global problem because of the influence of Hollywood, the American media and the American music industry not forgetting the fact the America is the World’s richest Nation and they have world famous products.
    Finally we mustn’t forget the winners of the celebrated Miss World or Miss Universe beauty pageants over the decades, how many have ever won with typical ethnic or indigenous features the answer is non, all winners have had either western features or certainly that must have, narrow nose bridge.

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  627. Hey Ryon, weddings photos are a good source of beautiful nonwhite women. Ive gone to weddings videos from every country on the planet.

    You don’t get to see a lot of skin; but that kinda makes it sexier in a uptight “victorian” kinda way?

    Niki Minaj is the devil.

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  628. thanks

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  629. Exactly, ITA with the author!!! I have been saying that for years! This country makes me so sick how they push this notion that only biracial women and girls are “beautiful”. Halle is actually biracial, she has a White. Barack Obama is in the same category, he is biracial not ” Black”, he had a White mother too. The media are the ones who perpetrated that she was so “beautiful”, and Whites and Blacks alike just ran with it. It was such a shame how she got movie roles over other Black actresses out of work mainly because of how she looks. Yes it’s 2015, but there are so many with the mindset of 1950, That whole lightskin is better than darkskin stuff. The darker actresses back in those days played the roles of maids, and the lighter ones like Dorothy Dandrige played the glamor roles. Halle is pretty, but she is not all that for people to be going googoo gaga over.

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