dark green = most speak Arabic; light green = Arabic-speaking minority
The Arab world is made up of those countries where Arabic is the main language. Most belong to the Arab League. The Arab world we know grew out of the Arab Empire a thousand years ago.
The Arab world currently has about 200 million people, two-thirds the size of America. Yet it has at least half of the world’s oil.
The Arab world is not the same as the Muslim world. Only one Muslim in six is Arab. Islam spread far beyond the Arab world long ago.
Also, not all Arabs are Muslim. Some are Christians, like some in Lebanon and Palestine. Most Arabs who come to live in America are Christians.
The glory days were from the 600s to the 900s, back in the days of the Arab Empire. Baghdad was at the centre of it all and had some of the greatest minds ever.
The empire came out of nowhere, as many do: in a hundred years the Arabs went from being a desert people always fighting among themselves to rulers of an empire that stretched from Persia to Spain.
For hundreds of years the Arab world was far in advance of the West: it gave the West paper, coffee, its numbers, Aristotle and Greek learning, cotton, courtly love and much else. Not that Arabs necessarily invented all these things: they got paper from China and their system of numbers from India.
In time the empire fell. The Arab world was ruled by Turks, then Mongols, then Turks again. Even the West ruled a bit of it in the time of the Crusades. A hundred years ago the Ottoman Turks ruled it all.
When the Ottoman Empire fell the Arab world was cut into pieces like a birthday cake between Britain and France. Britain got control of Palestine on September 11th 1922.
The French and British empires are now only in history books, but two new Western powers have taken their place:
- Israel: a Jewish state founded on Arab land. It rules half of Palestine outright and half by force as a foreign army.
- America: picks up where the British left off. It supports Israel. Blindly. It supports bad government throughout the region, especially in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. In Iraq it overthrew one of these bad leaders and is now trying to set up a working democracy. But Iraq is a complete mess. So when America says it wants to bring peace and democracy to the Arab world it is not believed.
America has three interests in the Arab world:
- Oil
- Peace so that the region is no longer a threat.
- Israel
America cannot live without the oil that comes from the Arab world. Nor can it live in constant fear of those who would kill Americans in the name of a holy war, as took place on September 11th 2001.
Israel is less important, but there are enough Jews in America in high position that its protection seems assured.
Osama bin Laden wants to overthrow the rulers that America supports and bring back the glory days of the empire.
See also:
Abagond 
Hello,
I think the numbering system started in the world from India and not from Arab world as is mentioned in the site. In Fact indians are supposed to be the founder of numerical systems with the Vedica mathmatic still supposed to be more precise than the western maths.
ADDITONALLY,
Stuffs related to Emprorer Ashoka has been found in the African Continent which tells that he used to rule this part of the world. Date of Birth somewhere in BC 300.
I think you need to correct the article.
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Sorry that I gave the impression that the Arabs invented the things they gave to the West. I have corrected the article. Thanks for pointing that out.
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But then come see you ypu may still com work for James Finley .
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beautiful .. at last a non-biased historical article boldly depicting events and political issues as they really happened and are happening.
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Thanks. I hope that wasn’t sarcastic!
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Good post!
In discussing this with a few random people, even now– some people have the idea that most muslims are Arab and that all of them, just by virtue of being Arab, are muslim.
What do you think about doing a post on the spread of Islam?
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since when was somalia part of the arab world?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League
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@ Bulanik
Probably because Somalis are not by and large “Arabs”.
@ Fleecyhead
Arabic is one of the two official languages of Somalia.
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@ Fleecyhead Milagrero
I added a map at the top of the post that shows where Arabic is spoken. In parts of northern Somalia most people speak Arabic.
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I’ll be honest I feel some type of way about the map above, and this thing about Somalia been included in the Arab world for whatever reason. It just rubs me wrong. Is Nigeria part of the “English world” because we speak English? What of India? Singapore?
Including such a huge chunk of the African continent as part of the “Arab world” is problematic as hell because it shows once again people are seemingly cool with or ignorant of colonialism if the colonising isn’t done by white Europeans. According to the map above, the “Arab world” extends into Mali, Senegal, Niger, Chad, Somalia, Morocco…and that is just as wrong to me as South Africa being portrayed as a white character in Hetalia.
Just because some Africans speak Arabic or some Arabs live on African soil does not make those countries/regions part of the Arab world or Arab even. I’m still waiting to know when I’ll be considered English because I speak the language. Arab colonialism and imperialism is real.
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Osama Bin Laden is dead, who do you mean by mentioning his name in the article?
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@Bulanik
I responded that way b/c IMO fleecyhead was probably confused as to why a black country is a part of the Arab league. And you’re right about Mauritania…like Sudan, the majority of the people are not Arabs, but speak Arabic and have the Arabic culture. “Arab” is a loose term anyway. The original meaning has to do with the desert inhabitants, not race.
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@Bulanik
“When we say ‘Arab’, are we actually talking about ‘conquest’?”
I think that is how the Arab League perceives the “Arab World,” and I share in that perception.
“After all, the Arabic language is hardly indigenous to the African continent.”
I’m not so sure about that. Arabic script looks eerily similar to the Demotic script that was introduced by the “Nubian” 25th dynasy…so I agree with linguists who say that Arabic script evolved from Demotic. The Arabic language is also an “Afro-Asiatic” language.
“when it comes the Islamic history of Africa, it is not my belief that the entire history is a consequence of ‘Arab invasion’ at all”
I agree. For example, Islam supposedly spread in Nigeria not by Arabs, but by the expansion of the Islamic Bornu empire in the 9th century. Senegal is largely muslim b/c of the conversion of a Wolof leader in the 19th century.
The difference is that Islam was supposedly introduced to Somalia (and other E. African countries) by Arabs. However, according to historians, this was not forced upon the people, but accepted by the leaders. So, I agree with your presumptions that Islam’s history in Africa is largely a story of conversion more so than subjugation.
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@Bulanik
“…Arabic IS an Afro-Asiatic language. By the same token, English IS an Indo-European language.”
I think the term “Afro-Asiatic” itself is a misnomer. It’s just an African language system that spread to W. Asia. The Arabic language as we know it was standardised by Abu Al-Aswad Al-Du’ali who, according to Van Sertima, was an African muslim convert.
“The origins of English is traceable to India…”
“Indo-European” is also a misnomer, and western academia accepts that its origins are in Khazaria, not India (Kurgan theory).
IMO Indian languages should not be classified with most European languages, e.g., Greek & Hebrew have more similarities than Greek and Konkani.
“…But, English is written in Roman script, does that mean it is one of the ‘Romance’ languages, like Spanish?”
Yes, according to someone else’s classification system. English may not be grammatically romantic, but it could be in terms of vocabulary…
“…old Nabataean script which is known today as Syriac script, a type of Aramaic.”
Old Nabatean, like Hebrew script, traces back to the Africa’s “Phoenician” script/language (“Phoenician” is just a code for African colonists).
“Clearly Arabic has never existed in one single form…”
Well, I don’t consider those different forms to be the same language just as French and Italian, which are 89% lexically similar, aren’t considered the same languages.
“…research that asserted that the language of the early compositions of the Qur’an was not exclusively Arabic”
Those early Qur’ans preceded the birth of the Arabic language. The Fusha Arabic of the Arab League wasn’t standardised until the mid-600s AD.
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@ Bulanik
“What would you call those different forms (or “dialect chain”) that you consider to be non-Arabic?”
I just think a language is based on a standard set of rules, and if a dialect deviates too much, then it shouldn’t be considered the same language…i regret I can’t (and shouldn’t) give specific examples b/c i don’t know arabic et al. well enough.
“If you mean standardization of Classical Arabic of the Qur’an then Abu Al-Aswad Al-Du’ali might be joined by Sibawayh…his teacher, Hammad ibn Salamah ibn Dinar al-Basr before him…”
Al Du’Ali instituted a most of the rules that are still used today, and so only he can be called the father of the Fusha Arabic standard…
“Gimbutas’ Kurgan hypothesis is popular, but not conclusive….”
I personally doubt the theory, but it’s what’s most widely accepted in western academia today…
“Greek and Konkani, dissimilar? That’s because it’s not apples for apples…”
Not saying they are completely dissimilar, rather Greek and Hebrew (specifically Old Hebrew) have many similarities yet are not considered to be related. Just b/c Greek and Konkani are distant cousins doesn’t mean Greek and Hebrew can’t also be distant cousins (God forbid Greek be perceived as partially “Afro-Asiatic”).
“I realize that Hans Jensen made the case…that the Phoenician alphabet was based on Egyptian hieroglyphs…”
It’s not just that, but that the oldest Proto-Phoenician script (Proto-Sinaitic), which predates Demotic, was found around Waset/Thebes in Southern Egypt (later found on Sinai).
“And, English is too Germanic to be Romantic.”
Right, I should have said “No…” it’s not gramatically romantic but English has adopted most (70%+) latin words into its vocabulary, and it’s about 30% lexically similar to French. My point was only that it’s at least partially romantic in terms of vocabulary.
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Losing this is what is at stake….
Islam and Christianity are poison to the culture and concepts of black sub Sahara Africa
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The Arab slave trade (from 12 million to 16 million black Africans were taken into the Arab slave trade), and, the North Atlantic slave trade ( up to 6 million black Africans were taken into the Americas to slavery), stripped the people who brought the world this culture , of being able to practice their culture.
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This is advanced mathamatics
In the Western world , or the Arab world,at best, it is diluted, watered down, or weakened, at worst, it is dismissed, buried, or destroyed
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I think the phoenicians were semitic people orginating from present day Lebanon area, who colonised parts of northern Africa (Karthago etc.). They were not africans like the egyptians were.
Also I do not see arabs as africans. They are distinctly separate ethnic entity. To claim that they are africans is a huge stretch. Naturally, we are all africans, if we look back far enough and on that same way arabs can be seen as africans. But try to sell that idea to any arab. They do not see themselves as africans nor they ever have seen themselves as africans, and despite how much some want to make the connection, that is the way it is. Not one maroccan, algerian, tunsian or present day egyptian I have spoken with have said they are africans (despite the fact that live in the continent). On the contrary, they all make it very clear that they are arabs, not africans. And this I think is one of basic reasons for the problems in southern Sudan, Darfur etc.
As for the map and Arab Legaues defination of arab world, they, like everyone else, like to see it much bigger than what it is. The tuaregs of Sahara do not see themselves as arabs despite of being muslims and if you want to have a nice confrontation, you can always call turks of Turkey arabs simply because they are muslims or can speak arabic. Nobody does that, for some reason however :-D. But it is as silly to call black muslim africans arabs just based on religion or language.
The real arab world is not the area were arabic is spoken or where islam is the religion. It is the area of arab people, the ethnic and cultural area. Arab League like any political union wishes to see it bigger, understandably, but there are good comparisons:
– one is french speaking Africa, the areas where french is used as a lingua franca, and where the cultural aspects of colonisation are visible (clothes, buildings, books etc.). But nobody in their sound mind would ever call these countries as French or being french.
– another is Brittish commonwealth. Nobody in their sound mind would call the member states or nations as brittish despite of them being members in that organisation.
– third and most convincing is of course is Latin America. Nobody would call mexicans as spanish (except americans for some silly reason) or brazilians as portugese. This despite the languages and religion and cultural aspects.
Based on this I see the Arab Leagues definition of the arab world just one more political attempt to magnify and bolster its own position as a political world power. Nothing more, nothing less.
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I just saw another documentary about how 6 seperate scientists described that the logic concious mind only controls a small part of what we do in daily life
The ancient black sub Sahara Africans , have brought to the world, a way to turn off the thinking brain , and be in touch with intuition, the inner spirit , and, how to open up the soul….Besides the latest scientific discoveries , being in touch with our soul and intuition, seems more needed than ever in our world as we go ahead with our technologies and inhuman , impersonal regulated lives
Yet, there is no where in the world , in the Western world, in the Arab world, in India, China, Japan, Russia etc, that can acknowledge and give the true respect for the genius that the ancient black Africans brought to us…mostly because of the teachings to us of our religions and formal educations….
People do not know how to understand the depth and profound concepts that came from sub Sahara black Africa, and that can be traced directly to the Arab slave trade, and , North Atlantic slave trade, and Islam and Christianity , taking out of Africa its most precious human recource, the fonte of this culture and concepts, and stripping them of their culture.
Islam and Christianity and Judiism will never acknowledge it .Even if it exists in a watered down manor, (in the sence that you can find Morracan muslims that play similar rhythms they got from black sub Sahara Africa, and, Evangelical African churches use some of the grooves in their cerimonies, but, the original power and force and purpose are lost )
This is not condeming Africans who convert to Islam or Christianity, but its stating that they are both venom to the original concepts and force and genius that the ancient black sub Sahara Africans gave us, and, I hope we never lose these incredible concepts and cultures…because maybe the world is going to understand how deeply we need them as we go into the future
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If 12 million to 16 million black Africans were taken into the Arab slave trade , what happened to them in the “Arab world”?
In Brazil, one of the most mixed countries in the world, with the highest Afro descendant population outside of Nigeria , you can find huge amounts of the population having phenotype black African features.
To be sure, you can find plenty of examples of phenotype black African features in Arab countries, but, not in great numbers.
It seems to indicate that a huge amount of those black African slaves died in slavery. This so called upward mobility of becoming Muslim if you were a slave, must not have been true for the majority of black African slaves brought to the Arab countries
Its funny to me to portray the Arab conquest of North Africa as something that is much differant than the conquistadors or early American colonies. Its cartoonish to portray it as only the conquistadors conquering and killing off Indians at will. They never could have conquered the Aztecs if they didnt make huge aliances with the other Indian tribes that were being conquerd, punished and sacrificed by the Aztecs
This isnt to diminish the horrible destruction and genocide of the Indians, but, to think that Islam funcioned any differantly than Chistianity doesnt ring true. Do people think that no Indian ever, went to Chritianity on their own?
By all means lets quantify that the chatel slavery for the slave was worse in the Americas than the Arab world, but, the damage done to Africans, the drain of human recource, the destruction of the culture of the slave being transported, was equally as bad in both cases of the Arab slave trade and the North Atlantic slave trade.
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http://www.arabslavetrade.com/
Just look at this paper, written by a Muslim, has a lot of details, interesting, but, no where in this whole report is a mention that one of the worst results of the spread of Islam is the destruction of the genius brought to the table by black sub Sahara Africans….it just doesnt play a part of this person’s analysis
It does answer some of my questions about what happened to black slaves in the middle east, but, Brazil went on a big “whitening ” program , its also one of the biggest mixed populations and still there are huge black phenotype populations( that he indicates southern Yemen has a high mixed population does ring true), if that many millions of black Africans were brought to the middle east, where is the real mixture that would result if that many people were in the population? He sais there is about 10 percent mixture…doesnt ring true
This report is biased, but, it does have a lot of information, even if some is conflicting
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“BR,
If 12 million to 16 million black Africans were taken into the Arab slave trade , what happened to them in the “Arab world”?
To be sure, you can find plenty of examples of phenotype black African features in Arab countries, but, not in great numbers.”
Linda says,
BR, are you serious?
If so, please be specific which countries you mean because I see a hella lot of people in countries like Morocco, Egypt, Yemen, Oman who looked mixed with stereotypical “black African” features — you can see the blend of the 2 groups/ different ethnicities.
Also, I don’t know much about the subject, as to what happened to the black African slaves — but my understanding is that they got absorbed into society (like what happened in Argentina)
such as, when the black African women enslaved by Arabs had children with the Arabs, the father claimed the child and the children became part of society as members of the household
From what I’ve read, the term “Arab” is a label that is misused to cover everyone who happens to speak Arabic (like the Copts of Egypt), sort of how the Egyptians in the USA are called “white” even though they carry black African genes.
pictures of Egyptians
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/egyptians-are-not-arabs-they-are-egyptians/
I think Bulanik had touched on this subject previously talking about the difference of slavery in North Africa/ Arab countries vs North American slavery.
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This book gives lots of info, click to look inside and read the preview :http://www.amazon.com/Servants-Allah-African-Enslaved-Americas/dp/0814719058
a review of the book , here : http://www.danielpipes.org/868/servants-of-allah-african-muslims-enslaved-in-the-americas
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Linda, when I said the “Arab world” I meant outside of Africa, Saudi Arabia..I should of been more specific
Argentina just doesnt have that many black people.
I think this way, 10 million black slaves sent to Saudi Arabia, the women can have a child, the father sais he can be accepted. He , the baby, is 50 percent now. More than likley, he will have sex in the harem with more slaves from Africa, for sure a certain percentage will…and that baby will be 50 black African percent on the fathers side and 100 percent on the mothers side. I dont see the color mixture that it would bring playing out…I mean we are talking like 10 million here…
If most of the black women are going to harems, what is the differance between that and Tom Jefferson having sex with his slaves?
I know there are differances, I already say lets agree chatel slavery is worse, but, lets pull off the covers, its all really ugly…
Any guys out here want to be an enuch, described in that article as having there genitals cut off then hot coals put down there…then you get to have jewels and riches and accepted in the court…any men for that? Not me!!!!!!!
And, my major point is, the black sub Sahara African slave is stripped of his culture in both cases, and, that article just cant really address that very well…he cant address what is wrong with that…he is more addressing the anti Islamists, and Afro centrists…in his words…and how Islam isnt as bad as the West and how Chritianity played out…again, lets agree, but for the Africans ripped from their culture in huge numbers, and the drain on Africa with that slavery , and , no one teaching the genius of the sub Sahara African culture and what really is at stake, it is the same thing
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Actualy,i dont mean 10 million sent to Saudi Arabia, I mean in the Arab slave trade that went out of Africa….if someone can give some percentages how many slaves staid in AFrica , that could shed some light on the numbers
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Jared, yes, in Brazil there is evidence of black Muslims from Africa who were brought over in the slave trade. Especialy Bahia, you can see cultural referances
But, I would suggest that it was not a huge number and more of a side note
By the way, I use referances like “Saudi Arabia” because I dont know what that area was called at that time
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I just sent the link because the book had some interesting info concerning some of differences between the treatment of slaves in the arab world and the european slave trade, both were still horrible.
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And, Linda, so, lets devide the 10 million around what could be described as “the Arab world”, there would still be huge numbers in the countries outside of Africa, and, I dont see a mix played out as though those numbers were integrated into society. I can see what the guy sais about Yemen and that rings true..
But, my main point is, I dont want to get stuck in a geography test or numbers validity test to get over the point that Islam and Chistianity cancel out the culture and genius of the black sub Saharan African and the incredible gifts they bring to the table.
In the Americas, these concepts forged their way through the most profound of struggles and represion to dominate the popular cultures wherever black slaves from Africa were brought…
Yes, the popular cultures…is that all? Only be regulated to popular cultures without the really deep deep meaning behind the rhythm and dance, not the religious rites, its the force the religious shamans used to fuel their cerimonies, but that force is there in many other aspects also and used for many aspects…integrated into a whole way of feeling life..in the most deepest of spiritual aspects outside of any official religion dogma and cerimony…
You could only say, a few elite “shamons” in the Americas really reached the highest leval of plugging into that force….John Coltrane, MIles Davis (and some of the elite musicians espcialy drummers they played with) Chu Chu Valdes, Estacao Primeira de Mangueira bateria and passistas, etc
Id like to ask you , Linda, how do you feel as a black woman that most of the real deepest potential of the culture of your ancesters is not being ackowledged for the force and gifts to the world that it really represents ? Basicly ignored by the whole world, yet played with by the whole world, regulated to their entertainment
I see it as a great loss, myself, and, I also see it as the key to the future…after all, the newest musical form invented on the planet, electric dance music, is riding the coatails of the ancient African concepts…you better beleive it wouldnt be worth antying if it didnt hide behind those ancient sub Sahara black African concepts…and very few other cultures could actualy carry it as well..even if they could be brilliant….that is just how strong those concepts are, how far into our present and future they have come from a long long way in the past…the oldest , older than 4000 year Indian talas…
the African drum
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Jared, it is very interesting, as someone who has seen some of these influences and how they play out, it is great info…I didnt mean to belittle it in any way, just trying to get the whole picture in my mind
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check that out, Jared, let me know if you need me to translate, its about what you are talking about
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“I’ve probably seen disglossia in action as “bilingualism”, and consider it an enrichment rather than a de-stabilization or “deviation” of an ‘official’ formal language.”
My point was that a language must be both understood and utilised by people. As to your examples, I speak French but can’t understand nor communicate in Alsatian (I lived in Alsace, and it’s definitely considered a “formal” language). Besides, Alsatian is considered Germanic and is much closer to German than French. Your better example was English vs. Jamaican Patois, but even still, I can’t understand most Patois and certainly can’t speak it despite its similarities to English. So Patois must be another language, since this English-speaker (me) cannot speak Patois.
Thanks for pointing out the Avestan script. It looks MUCH more like Demotic script to me than anything else, which would make sense, b/c the 25th dynasty under Taharqa (who is also mentioned in the Bible…Isaiah 37 for instance) traveled in Mesopotamia. And of course Persians would later conquer lower Egypt.
“Most English speakers use the short German core-words MOST, not the longer, more obscure Latin ones.”
I fully agree the English is more Germanic, but my point is simply that English is a mutt language, with heavy Latin and French influences as well (and there are many everyday words that are read exactly the same in both French and English (e.g., sensible, sensitive, action, part, pardon, unique, etc.). English is just as lexically similar to French as it is to its closest Germanic relative, Dutch…roughly 30% each.
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“BR,
Linda, when I said the “Arab world” I meant outside of Africa, Saudi Arabia..I should of been more specific
Argentina just doesnt have that many black people.
And, my major point is, the black sub Sahara African slave is stripped of his culture in both cases, and, that article just cant really address that very well…he cant address what is wrong with that…he is more addressing the anti Islamists, and Afro centrists…in his words…and how Islam isnt as bad as the West and how Chritianity played out”
Linda says,
BR, I’ll be honest, I am not sure what you mean or rather what your main points are, so I will try to sum it up in my own words and you tell me if I am close or far off the mark.
Are you trying to say that: “the black Africans taken outside of Africa by the Arabs during the slave trade lost their identities as Africans because they either intermixed with the Arabs or assimilated into Arab society?
So therefore, present-day descendents of these people don’t acknowledge or they no longer practice or remember their black African ancestors culture?”
if this is what you are saying, that is why I brought up Argentina, because the black African slaves (women) in Argentina intermixed their way out existance;
the men were sent to fight/die in Paraguay/Uruguay or ran off to Brazil.
that is why you rarely see a real “black” African phenotype Argentinian — but the African gene lives on in the mixed race Argentinians who believe they are “white”
Argentinian history does not really like to address this assimilation — so in a sense, the black population has been both written and bred out of history.
But some of the African culture brought by the slaves does continue in it’s watered down format (as you mention frequently)
I believe this type of intermixing/assimilation by the black African slaves was similar in these countries, like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc) and other middle eastern countries.
I do believe I’ve read somewhere that there are small communities of black African descendents (with obvious African phenotypes) that live in Turkey and Iraq; but yes, you are correct, these peoples ancestors were probably assimilated and are a part of the Muslim community, I am sure, some consider themselves Arab as well.
Also, I am not sure if all the black African migration was due to slavery–I believe throughout different points in history, black African men were part of the military (and were not slaves) as a means to advance themselves or make money, sort of like the African Conquistadors in North/South America…like I said, I don’t know too much about this subject.
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“resjan
My point was that a language must be both understood and utilised by people.
As to your examples, I speak French but can’t understand nor communicate in Alsatian (I lived in Alsace, and it’s definitely considered a “formal” language). Besides, Alsatian is considered Germanic and is much closer to German than French.”
Linda says,
Alsace, beautiful region but
I spent 2 looong weeks in Strasbourg (in ’88) and because my French (speaking) was terrible (as I was told) and the people I encountered Refused to speak English, thank God, I could speak German or I would have never eaten or got any service in the shops or restaurants 🙂
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Yes a translation would be nice .
Their are Afro – Iranians and Afro – Pakistani communities still thriving today.
The Afro-Iranian Community: Beyond Haji Firuz Blackface, the Slave Trade, & Bandari Music Link : http://ajammc.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/the-afro-iranian-community-beyond-haji-firuz-blackface-slavery-bandari-music/
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@ Linda
“…and the people I encountered Refused to speak English…”
More often than not, a lot of them really can’t speak English…Compared to Germany, Belgium, Nederland, etc., not as many French people speak English well enough to hold a conversation…but glad you knew German!
@Bulanik
“I’ve never read much about the Phoenicians, except the basics: Semitic “traders in purple”, colonial- mariners of the Mediterranean and North African lands, Canaanites, etc. But don’t know if they were a single ethnicity — or cultural identity they had. ”
I’ve researched this quite a bit and have come to my own conclusions about “Phoenicians,” and this gave me some great clues: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/phoe/hd_phoe.htm
“I, too, lived in Alsace, but longer over the German border im Schwarzwald for a coupla years, and DID not find Alsatian a “formal” language in the area at all! ”
In Strasbourg, Alsatian is widely seen on signage and heard in public, and the gov’t recognises it as a language. Even though it sounds a lot like German, it has proper spellings and rules that differ. IMO, that makes Alsatian a formal language.
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Jared, here is a nutshell translation of that youtube I brought in from Bahia :
paraphrasing- after 22 years of prosecion in carnival, the bloco Afro , Ile Aiye, celibrated by using a theme of the Muslim rebelion in Bahia in 1835, that was unique to slavery in the Americans.This rebelion was planned and directed by the “Males”, Afro islamists (brought over in slavery from Africa), but, included other African slaves of Yaroba background ( this is a nut shell translation, and, it goes on after that to describe Ile Aiye as a bloco Afro and what they represent)
The reason I say it is a side note is because, slavery in the Americas is a West African story, it is about the people from the cultures I have brought in on youtube here.
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One thing about the arabs: there is and has been considerable minority of christian arabs for ages. For some reason syrian christians are called amny times as assyrians, and for some strange reason (:-D) it is very nicely forgotten that there are numerous christian palestinians. There are very strong christian arab communities in Lebanon too. Also, Paul Anka is an arab, from lebanese roots, too.
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Linda, the numbers in Argentina are so small compared to the numbers that crossed the Red Sea. The guy from the ArabSlave trade site sais 10 million crossed the Red Sea, going as far as India , and even reaching Portugal and Spain….How many do you think out of that number staid in Arabia of that time, especialy the 1700’s and 1800’s the boom time according to that site?
You have brought up “whitening ” in the Caribean and Brazil, so in those places it was encouraged to mix….
This guys site sais that ouside of Yemen, the percentage of black African blood in the DNA is 10 percent or so, not much higher than in Greek,Italian, Jewish….something is not playing out in how the mix would go down….such huge numbers, lets even say 1 million only ended up in Arabia…I just dont think miscegenation or assimilation can account for the mix you see, especialy if the big boom was 2 centuries ago as that site claims …That site sais that most of the slaves were women , for the harems, such huge numbers, what happened to them? ( my god for people to try to diminish what it meant to be in a harem as a slave boggles the mind, Ill leave it to each individual on here to make up their own mind what that really means).I suggest to you that this so called “up ward mobility for the slave and their children of the slave owner”, wasnt so prevelant in practice as the people pushing it seems to want it to be…
If you look at that site, the more the guy tries to define the differance in the Arab slave trade, the differance in Islam with that, how it was spread, the more he just incriminates the real ugliness and violence it represents. I mean it is he who sais that 60 percent of the boys subjected to the eunich treatment didnt survive…his site describes the trail of death by the slave traders from Arabia on some of the journies into deeper Africa because of the resistance
He contradicts himself saying they didnt think in terms of “black and white” and then brings in a quote from Mohamid where he uses quite blatently “black and white” to describe people…
You dont get any argument from me about the differance in Arab slave trade and the spread of Islam…and that the term Arab can mean many people and that the people who engaged in the slave trade didnt represent Islam
Im saying point blank, Islam and Christianity at best water down the value and gift and concepts of the sub Sahara black African, at worst, they destroy it
Anyone who wants to put my arguments in a box as some “white American ignorance”, is seriously deceiving themselves ( not saying you , Linda), and cant really grasp these concepts Im talking about. They cant describe them or know what is really at stake subtituting Sufi cerimonies for the brilliant profound culter found in the youtubes I have brought in.For sure the guy who wrote that site cant describe it or understand that something gets lost when Sufiism, or Christianity take over the cultures and concepts of sub Sahara black Africa..I mean just compare the stuff I brought in with the Sufi cerimony…I see the differance…I value the concepts I brought in… I value the power and genius and life centering properties that culture offers the world, I can tangelbly describe it and know how deep it can heal and touch the inner soul and put me in touch with my intuition , subconcious and spirit…things Islam , Christianity, Judiism, Bhudism, Hinduism, etc dont do in the same way…they have their way…the sub Sahara black African way is unique onto itself
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@ B. R. thank you for the info
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Yes it shows that the enslaved africans did not wholly accept their condition and found ways to resist.
In Haiti hand written notes were sent from plantation to plantation to those involved in any resistance, written arabic or like the fulani there was a written version of their language using the arabic alphabet.
Taken from Afroz. “However, Islamic Scholar and Historian Dr Sultana
Afroz, of the University of the West Indies History
Department, Mona Campus, paints a very different
picture of the spiritual roots of Jamaican (and thus
Caribbean) culture: “Islam was the faith of the Black
African slaves brought to Jamaica and to the other
West Indian Islands from West and Central Africa.”
While their were large muslim communities ,their were larger still non-muslim slaves , some people try to downplay the traditional more nature based african religions, they also had a part to play in african resistance.
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http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/afammuslims.htm
Jared, here is an article that sais the percentage of African Muslim slaves sent to the Americas was between 10 percent and 20 percent…
I just read that there were about 100,000 African Muslims in Brazil about 1900…there were millions of black African slaves in Brazil at that time…now there are about27 thousand worshipers of Islam in Brazil
The Male revolt involved about 300 slaves who took over the streets of Salvador for several days…about 150 were killed, it did also include Yuroba also….info from Wikipedia
It is fascinating information for sure, along with the main story of black African slavery in the Americas about the people in the youtubes I brought in, the people of those cultures were the overwelming majority of slaves brought over
I see the way the young kids are taught to dance and play the drums exactly from that culture, and I see the way the girls dance and know that both Islam and Chritianity would bury that in their essence values, as sure as they would bury string bikinis
What is amazing about the Americas and slavery is how those African religious rites that arnt Islam , were so widely practiced hidden underneath the Catholic Saints, Candomble in Brazil, Voodoo in Haiti, and Santaria in Cuba etc…and when they couldnt be seen by the white man, they would do the beats and dances similar to some of the youtubes I brought in
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Jared, my preocupation with focusing heavily on African Muslims in the slave trade to the Americas is, its another reason to not look at and give credit to the people who bore the brunt of that slave trade to the Ameicas, and bore the brunt of the Arab slave trade.
Its another reason to dismiss their story , their culture, and diminish their contribution and struggle. Which has been severly overlooked and misunderstood all the way down the line.
People cant google up what the real value and contribution the sub Sahara black African has brought to us….Islam is widly studied, Christianity is widly studied, Judiism is widly studied, but, you cant get from any of these cultures any kind of respect and acknowledgement about the depth and insights to our spirit and soul and sub concious that the ancient black African discoverd
You can even take an Afro dance class and a drum class, but, no one will tell you what is actualy going on , that trip ropes and turns off the thinking brain and centers the inner soul and intuition, how music and dance seem to take on a life of their own, like its coming from somewhere else. Who put that together knew something profound about life and the world, and, we are barely understanding it.
Because music is only the gateway….and all this is lost when people talk about history and world contributions of cultures
So that is where Im coming from, about putting my focus on those people and there contribution and their struggle . Its not to deny the truth about African Muslim slaves in the Americas, which is very interesting information
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Cool , i know that Orisha worship is growing especially among non African descendents throughout the americas .
In most Caribbean countries the Islam brought by the slaves have completely disappeared any that you see there are new converts or reverts as they call themselves.
Surely the non muslim african cultures continue to thrive but the muslim aspect of the slave trade is little known and now being studied.
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Yes so am i, but most information that i come across is so vague.
Have you noticed the the Yorubas seem to have had a huge cultural influence amongst the peoples of African descent.
True, makes you wonder if a people are ever truly converted.
I think it’s the same in Iran and some other far east islamic countries, elements of the pre-islamic cultures have never truly been erased.
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@ Bulanik
“What also intrigues me is the treatment of obviously well-educated enslaved black people by the whites in the US: their African-ness was denied by their masters and relabeled ‘Arabs’ or Moors and in doing so, the white masters could continue to make sense of the inferior status of the black Africans.”
It’s not necessarily that their africanness was denied, rather “moor” was synonymous with “negro” prior to the late 1800s, as evidenced by
any English dictionary of that era.
However, in America the designation of a “Moor” also meant citizen of Morocco, and a 1787 Treaty granted “equal justice” to “Moors.” The Emperor of Morocco even intervened to free other black Muslims in America, such as Abd al Rahman Ibrahima Ibn Sori.
But, not sure which black intellectuals, if any, were called Arabs.
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(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumbi)
One has to be careful about asuming things about Brazil.In Brazil, the most famous black person fighting for freedom was Zumbi dos Palmares…this was before Brazil was a country so that might be why the Mare rebellion is stated as the largest in the Republic of Brazil, but, Zumbi dos Palmares was the most famous and was leader of a quilimbo ( a place where run away slaves would go to and there were many around Brazil) that had up to 30,000 people ( according to this Wiki link, im not sure it that is entrily acurat, but, no matter what, it was an enormous amount of people fleeing slavery).
See, here is the real deal we have to understand, and, the site I brought in about “Arab slavetrade” bears this out very well also, he said, anybody saying anything about what was happening in Arabia based on the African slave trade, is not really telling the whole truth because we just dont know what was happening. We are all making guesses….
This is what is unbeleivable, in “the Arab world” and the “Americas”, various civilisations who documented well everything they did, who built wonderful structures, who revealed mathamatics and algegra ( the Arabs), they didnt document hardly at all the real reality of the at least 20 million black African sub Sahara slaves lives…It is lost, there is very little to look at, its like a buried civilisation from 10,000 years ago…We know so much about the Western world, the Arab world, China, Jewish history, India, the Indians in the Americas , etc, but, we really know so little about the real lives of black African slaves who were taken to the Americas and across the Red Sea in the Arab slave trade…20 million lives
Just in the USA, there is extremly little to go on, a few letters written by some slaves who learned to write…we have no idea what was really going on…its mute, its lost…we are only speculating…same in Brazil, one of the most rich country in living snapshot folklirico representations of what the slaves were expressing, but, really knowing what the slaves stories were and how their lives really were is enormously lacking
So, isnt that extremly perplexing? That our cultures cant really define what it is about the genius and gifts of the ancient African concepts and we know so little of the lives of 20 million of the descendants of the people who brought us this unbeleivable unrecognised culture in their slave lives in the Ameicas and “the Arab world”.
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“BR@
So, isnt that extremly perplexing? That our cultures cant really define what it is about the genius and gifts of the ancient African concepts and we know so little of the lives of 20 million of the descendants of the people who brought us this unbeleivable unrecognised culture in their slave lives in the Ameicas and “the Arab world”
Linda says,
BR, you are very passionate when it comes to African music and it’s culture; I applaud that.
I would like to address some of your statements because like I said, I am a little unsure of what you really mean.
Who are you referring to when you say “we” and “our culture”?
You keep referring to 10 million black African slaves lost to the “Arab world” and what happened to them?
Are you asking: why aren’t there a more homogenous group of black Africans left in these Arab countries?
I mentioned that they (black African slaves) most likely intermixed with the local population in these “Arab” countries and you are rejecting this possibility because you believe that it seems inpossible that 10 million people could have just intermixed themselves away.
True, intermixing was probably not the only reason: some of them died in captivity, some may have went elsewhere, some of their descendents continue to live in these “Arab” countries today, still looking dark and lovely
but the reality is that 10 million people didn’t leave Africa all at once — this was probably done over a certain period of time and I am sure they were spread out regionally and not consolidated in 1 spot.
So, do you want to give a time-frame so that this discussion can move from abstract to something more definitive — say like a 100-year time period.
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yes my point was that most somalis aren’t ethnically arab (in fact, i’ve met somalis who get offended if anyone tells them they’re not african), and arabic is a 2nd language to most of them. they have their own language – somali. this inclusion of them into the arab legue seems to have been imposed on them without their consent.
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Linda, your statements are exactly what Im talking about, you say “most likley”, ” was probably”….you and I , and, everyone on here and the Islamic scholar I brought in , and he admits it, dont really know, they are speculations, guesses…there just isnt enough information…its lost, the slaves lives didnt mean enough to the captors to really document it…..i mean what about the 1600’s? or 1700″s? In the Americas for the slaves… That really is the blurred area as far as I can see..as a person who has spent large amount of my life in two large countries extremly affected by the North Atlantic slave trade, and is severly interested in what happened in that period to black African slaves, its extremly frustrating to try to find out how did the customs and culture survive to come to dominate our popular cultures…Linda, you being black and coming from Jamaica, now living in the States, can you really explain this? Maybe the small island of Jamaica offers more insights to you about there, but, can you explain what happened in the States? Because a whole lot of Americans black and white sure cant…
“our cultures” “we” Im talking about all our collective cultures in the world, and especialy the cultures that had black African slaves…
All our collective cultures in the world , “our” in this sence means the culture I know, the culture you know, the culture the Arab world knows, the culture the person in China knows, at that point its all our collective cultures, and all these collective cultures dont acknowledge the power , genius and spiritual force that the ancient black African really brings to the table, and , they all have no idea of what really happened to the 20 million slaves brought out of Africa.
I already referenced a time period, based on the Arabslavetrade site I brought in where the guy sais that there was a big hump in the 17 and 18 century in the “Arab slave trade”….even more reason to wonder since if so many black women were being brought to the harems in that period, there should be even more referance of them in the DNA and phenotype look ( I already mentioned what that guy sais about DNA, and, Im not saying he is the definitive source, but, at least he breaks it down more than most places Ive seen and some of his points were actualy stated in posts on here , almost word for word, before I brought it in so either someone read him also or it is the party line).
Regect your premise? No , I dont outright reject it, I said Im scepticle and I said the upward mobility of the child of a slave with a muslim father might have been more in the teachings than actualy practiced…like ” all men are created equal” in the Declaration of Independance….Also, even with the tremendous rejection of the African culture in the Americas, it came to dominate, why didnt that happen in “Arabia”? Belly dancing is the closest you will find a groove and pelvic thrusts, and , I looked at the history and it said it came from popular dances in the area not influenced from the slaves in the harem. So, that might indicate the culture was severly surpressed….but , I dont know
Lets face it , Linda, we dont know or anyone else on here , or out in the whole world really knows
What Im more than willing to agree is that chatel slavery was worse, but, the Arab slave trade was the other side of the same coin….and Islam and Christianity are venom to the concepts and genius of the youtubes I have brought in…
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Its very interesting to see how people want to superimpose what they beleive is the truth over certain realities…like trying to make the black African Islam take on more of a space than it actualy had in the Americas….
There is a saying in Salvador Bahia that there is a church for everyday of the year, and a house of Candomble also for every church. That is a huge referance to the presence of the non Islamic African cultures in Bahia, how dominant it was. There just isnt that much referance to Islamic culture…Its there, but not in such a huge presence.
They are going to run with the Male rebelion as though it is the main referance and ignore the huge number of “quilimbos” that were in Brazil and the most famous slave revolt , “Zumbi dos Palmares”…
Its just another way to not look at the real story of the black African slaves who come from the culture of the youtubes I brought in, which is very differant from “Sufi” culture , or Islamic culture or Christian culture
Lets just confuse the picture more…like implying black sub Sahara Africans all practiced pollygamy when I brought in a youtube about Pygmie culture that sais they take one bride for life…
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Do people actualy think there are no black African Chritians evangelisizing other black Africans?
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Everytime I have mentioned the genius and the gift and the power of the sub Sahara black African”s culture, Im not talking about religios rites….religious rites used this force but they didnt create it…its so much deeper than that…and that is what gets destroyed by Islam and Chistianity
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y-xBSDotpc)
If people want referances to AFro Islamist culture in Brazil its my pleasure to show some of it. This is actualy a tribute to Ghandi, in Salvador, but, I think the head dress is black Islamists as well as the horn lines, but the beat is unmistakingly sub Sahara black African non ismlamist
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2sFDIz__yo&feature=related)
this instrument, “rabeca”, even if it looks like a violin ,has oringins in Arab culture
I might have been wrong about the head gear in Filhos de Ghandi, they might have been trying to copy actual Indian head gear, that they might have seen in films of Ghandi…but the horn lines are very Afro Islamist sounding to my ears
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“BR,
Everytime I have mentioned the genius and the gift and the power of the sub Sahara black African”s culture, Im not talking about religios rites”
Linda says,
BR, you are a little “all over the place” — this is why I am attempting to scale you back and unwind your points because you’ve tied them together somehow and it doesn’t make sense to me (maybe other posters get it) but I don’t.
You have to forgive me for asking the same questions repeatedly but sometimes, I am a one-directional thinker and find it necessary to bring 1 subject to a conclusion before I jump to another.
So, if you please, I’ll repeat the question I posed to you earlier:
Since you keep referring to 10 million black African slaves lost to the “Arab world” and what happened to them?
Are you asking: why aren’t there a more homogenous group of black Africans left in these Arab countries?
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“BR,
there just isnt enough information…its lost, the slaves lives didnt mean enough to the captors to really document it
i mean what about the 1600′s? or 1700″s? In the Americas for the slaves… That really is the blurred area as far as I can see.
Linda, you being black and coming from Jamaica, now living in the States, can you really explain this? Maybe the small island of Jamaica offers more insights to you about there, but, can you explain what happened in the States? Because a whole lot of Americans black and white sure cant”
Linda says,
Now with this 2nd point you’ve brought up, I don’t understand your confusion.
As I mentioned, I wish to clarify what you mean concerning your statements.
Much literature has been written about slavery in the United States during the late 1600’s and 1700’s but of course, it came from the British/white American point of view.
So, are you asking about daily life amongst the slaves in the US from their (black African slaves) points of view?
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mjymTb_DSU)
Afro Arab in India, talk about mixture
Linda , like you said , the literature is Britsh /white American. There is no understanding of how the slaves really comunicated to each other,practiced their cultures, or even how they influenced the white Americans like with the banjo..We dont know how they really lived etc.Yes, I am asking about the black slaves point of veiw…
About the Arab slave trade, Im just asking what really happened? What happened to all the millions of slaves that crossed the Red Sea…the information is not there…the Islamist scholar I brought in readily acknowledges that.
Its not so much about a homogenous group, its about where is the phenotype and cultural referances that are so much in effect in the Americas?…of course ackowleding there were great differances.
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Linda, I think I need to ask you, do you understand what Im talking about with the youtubes Ive brought in? About a culture that is ancient and brings to the table knowledge of how to turn off the thinking brain , and plug into intuition, and go into an alpha state?
And that Islam and Chritianity are venom to these concepts?
And that people dont really ackowledge what this genius really is?
I want to know if you understood what I mean
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Im not trying in anyway to crush the identity of Afro Islam in the Ameicas, or deny it, I just absolutly dont want to lose the focus on the people and culture that bore the brunt of slavery..
By all means lets look at Afro Islamic culture inthe slave history in Brazil, but, never lose sight that it is predominantly a sub Sahara black African situation from the non Islamist black cultures…and these cultures severly affected the cultures of the places they were brought in Brazil
Afro Islam is a side note to the much larger sub Sahara black African non Islamist culture in Brazil…..
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@ Bulanik :
I was looking for a site for you to read but i can’t seem to find it .
It was a tiny bit of information ,but basically it told the story of an
African family enslaved in the 19th century on the caribbean island
of St.Vincent who were of the Jewish faith. the descendents later emigrated
to the United States in the early part of the 20th century.
I think that some scholars have pointed out that many of traditions we consider to be Christian and Islamic were part of the customs of the Nile valley peoples long before these religions came into being.
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@Linda
Are you familiar with the blacks that live in Basra, (southern) Iraq? You may have had mentioned it, but the comment section is a bit long to read. It’s about 2 million of them.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96977550
From Wikipedia:
Most Black Iraqis are descended from sailors and slaves who were brought from present-day Sudan and Ethiopia and elsewhere in East Africa. Zanzibar, an island of the coast of Tanzania gave the name Zanj to the descendants of these slaves. Slave trade begun by early Arab traders began in 9th century and lasted over millennium. Most of these slaves were imported to work in large dates and sugarcane plantations.
To protest their treatment, Zanj slaves from Basra staged a successful revolt against Baghdad the Muslim capital for 15 years (refer to Zanj Rebellion). During this period they created a city called Moktara. In 883, the Army from Baghdad was able to put the revolt down. Afterwards, locals did not engage in large-scale plantation-type slavery. Slavery lasted up until the 19th century.However, there were reports of dark-skinned slaves in Iraq in 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_Iraqis
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“Satanforce,
@Linda
Are you familiar with the blacks that live in Basra, (southern) Iraq? You may have had mentioned it, but the comment section is a bit long to read. It’s about 2 million of them.”
Linda says,
Yes, I’ve heard of them and the Afro communities in Iran, Turkey, etc. Thanks for the video.
This is why I am confused by BR’s continued question as to what became of the Africans in the middle East and “Arab” countries
obviously, they are still there — it’s not a secret
but BR seems to be unhappy that they are assimilated and have not remained or seem to retain their African ancestors culture and traditions.
Most enslaved people had to assimilate in order to survive in their new homeland.
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“unhappy”? wow Linda, and here I thought we were having a discusion and just asking some pertinent questions…
Ok I see where this is going…you know, I brought in the “the Arabslavetrade site”, it has all that information in it, I brought in the “Afro arab in India” youtube
I brought in pertinent info on the Male rebellion in Bahia…..
on the Arab rabeca in Pernambuco Recife
I have more than admitted I dont know what happened in Arabia in the slave trade…Im just asking questions
But I see this doesnt register and Im just getting pegged
And dont get my questions answered….
People can go ahead and beleive what ever they want to…be my guest
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@ Bulanik
The thing is, in some slave colonies the Yoruba were a minority .
It’s just another mystery ,one of many about what their lives (enslaved Africans) were really like.
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They never disappeared ,they were just ignored.
A little after the Iraq invasion in 2003 , CNN ran a small half hour documentry,
about the lives of the Afro Iraqis about two years later they did one about the Afro Pakistanis , that’s how i found out about them.
Strange if it wasn’t for the war they would of remain invisible.
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“B. R.
“unhappy”? wow Linda, and here I thought we were having a discusion and just asking some pertinent questions…
But I see this doesnt register and Im just getting pegged
And dont get my questions answered….
People can go ahead and beleive what ever they want to…be my guest”
Linda says,
BR, we are having a discussion, I am not trying to insult you or ignore you…
You’ve thrown many different topics into the pot but the one thing I am getting out of it is that
(A) you seem to be searching for these black Africans communities outside of Africa, to have remained “intact” as a homogenous group that has not been influenced by their Arab or Asian environment…such as the video of the Afro-Indians — who have kept their traditions mostly intact.
(B) and yes, you do seem disappointed by the African descendents of the Diaspora that don’t seem to display their African ancestry prominently in their culture — because it has watered down through assimilation or intermixing — and you are assuming that these people have some sort of “lost” identity and history because white/western scholars don’t know or have not written about it.
I don’t say this to put you down, this is what I am getting from reading your posts…doesn’t mean I am right, you tell me.
I do intend to continue our discussion. I want to address each of your points.
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“Jared,
A little after the Iraq invasion in 2003 , CNN ran a small half hour documentry,
about the lives of the Afro Iraqis about two years later they did one about the Afro Pakistanis , that’s how i found out about them.
Strange if it wasn’t for the war they would of remain invisible.”
Linda says,
Isn’t it sad that the media has to teach what should be taught in World history, but I know it’s hard because everything has to be condensed and only the “important” people get discussed in Western literature.
The Internet is a good resource but the best way to learn the history, culture, or secrets of any group of people, is to actually be exposed to them in person.
I learned about the Afro-Turks when I lived in Europe many years ago. I dated a Turkish guy who took me to a party and I saw a few dark Turkish people, who I assumed were either Eritrean or Ethiopian. They corrected me and told me they were Turkish — the other non-Turkish middle eastern people seemed to have a clue.
It seems what people don’t learn in books, then they go by stereotypes displayed in pop culture or what they’ve been exposed to on TV shown in their country.
such as, I run into people all the time in US and Europe who don’t realize that in Jamaica, we actually have white, Chinese, and Indian people — Most Caribbean islanders are aware…so why are these non-Caribbean people “surprised”…. because based on pop culture in America/Europe, Jamaicans are black, say “Hey mon, smoke weed, and have dredlocks.
who cares about the “real” Jamaica and it’s people, history, or culture except Jamaicans, right…
So, it’s no surprise that most people in Western countries would have no idea that there are “black” people in Asia or Middle East — because most people view their own country as the center of the Universe and everyone else are foreign weirdos 🙂
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@ Bulanik :
So true with everything you wrote,especially concerning Arab nationalism .
I’ve noticed that Berbers in Libya ,now that Gaddafi is gone are rejecting that Arab identity and are demanding greater autonomy.
Is that not what they, the racist postulate .
That any SSA admixture in populations in North Africa or the Near East are relatively new, that those populations were always “white”
Have you come across this paper yet,i don’t have access to the whole thing, but what little one can gather from it, SSA gene flow into North African Populations is very old.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21082907
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OK , Linda, but , let me clarify, its not disapointment at all at Afro descendants who dont show their roots , its not a lost identity, that isnt what Im saying.
Please understand, Im not railing at the culture mixtures, for example, in Africa…any mixtures of Islam with non Islamic customs that result in new expresions, are wonderful…what Im saying is that, it will take away from the original concept , and, the original concept is lost in the shuffle…its never really defined or valued..I dont say people shouldnt pick the religion of their choice, Im saying that the ancient cultures should be really embraced and studied for the incredible gifts and what it really represents…and , Islam and Chritianity, make it something else…they are differant entities
I also never said their werent Afro descendands in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, etc There are Afro descendants in smaller countries in South America that I didnt know were there until I saw their national soccar teams. But, its scattered and not big numbers, similar to these situations people have mentioned here in Iraq or Turkey.We are tallking of millions of people here, do they really play out in small pockets?
For sure I see lots of Afro features in some Palistineans, Libyans, and what that guy said about south Yemen rang true…but he did say that outside of that, DNA was about 10 percent, 5 points more than the Greeks, Italians, Jewish people….is that how millions play out in the mix from the 1800″s?
Linda, I would normaly not really come in on a thread about the Arab world , I would normaly listen, because I dont know enough about the Arab world to make comments…but when I see comments that imply that the black African women would get taken into a harem and then their child , if the father was Muslim, is accepted, and assimilated. And the Arabslavetrade site said that most of the slave trading was women being taken into slavery to be in harems. And, he sais that there was a big hump in trading in the 17 and 18 centuries, and he puts the slavery figure at 10 million crossing the Red Sea , that must be huge numbers of black African women sent to harems in that period (what would the number in a big hump in that century if the slavery was going on centuries?)….something is telling me that it isnt playing out in the mix….gosh, its not something Im going to bet the farm on and take a stand…my instincts just ask me that hordes of black African women in harems , what does that really mean? How many had kids that really were asimilated? If they didnt have kids, what happens to the huge numbers of black African women as they age, get sent to Yemen? I see those incredible African little girls dancing their culture and I know they are stripped of that (did you see those youtubes ? I know everyone cant watch every youtube link on here)
The guy said one differance is that in the Americas, it was slaves for crops, and in Arabia it was women for Harems mostly…so mixture went on in the Americas because of rapes by the masters, in a situation of slaves for agriculture, and in Arabia, women in harems is the main focus, sex is the main focus, and if that isnt rape also, then I dont know what is…is someone actualy going to come on here and say it wasnt rape? And what happened to the women that didnt have kids as they aged? As a woman and a black woman, Linda, Im surprised your antenna isnt up on this and you are so ready to asume its assimilation… But, hey, since we really can never know…let everyone beleive what they think fits for them.
And, I dont think you are going to hear me come in here and say something about Jamaica that I dont know…If people know the histroy produced plenty of Afro Muslims, if people have personal relatives and they find great satisfaction in that…wonderful…but, I just got back from Salvador and Im going back soon on business, Ive studied its culture for over 25 years and immerse myself in it and express it on stage with a great Afro Bahian dancer , Im going to just tell it like it is, if people get uptight because I say sub Sahara black African culture with out Islam, is the main focus, you can beleive it is…and to have my statement tied up with some kind of “anti Islam” implications which were thrown at me on here, is just weak arguing…but, I still feel anyone can beleive what they like…I also think fantacy and fiction are fun
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“Bulanik,
The irony was that sometimes – no – OFTEN – Arabs who self-identified as “white”, weren’t, because they obviously had African ancestry.
But, just try to tell an Arab nationalist that!
IMO, Arab nationalism is aimed at the denial of identity of millions of indigenous non-Arab nations/peoples as an ethnic cleansing on an individual psychological, and also wider political and cultural level.”
Linda says,
This is what drives me crazy…the marginalization of the African heritage by the very people that carry the black African genes.
On my fathers side of family, they view me as strange because I have such strong beliefs when it comes to wanting our African heritage acknowledged and respected and not placed on the bottom in favor of our European heritage.
on a seperate note:
I’ve been so upset about what is going on in Mali and the destruction of the Timbuktu Temples– the Tuaregs (who fought for Gadhafi) set off a chain of events that are now out of their control and this take over was just a blip on the screen in US until Al-Queda pushed out the Tuaregs and took over.
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“BR,
As a woman and a black woman, Linda, Im surprised your antenna isnt up on this and you are so ready to asume its assimilation… But, hey, since we really can never know…let everyone beleive what they think fits for them.”
Linda says,
BR, I wasn’t discussing only the black women in “Arab” countries being assimilated — by assimilation, I mean that the black Africans (men and women) became a part of their new environment — they learned the customs and religion of the people around them and intermixed.
I have nothing to say about Harems because I don’t know anything about harems.
As a brown woman, I am an advocate against rape in all and any country — back then, women (who weren’t slaves) were subject to being raped because women throughout the world had no rights. We had a discussion about this on another post.
As far as it seeming impossible that the majority of the black Africans mixed into the local population, I don’t see why this is non feasible…these people did not all live in 1 spot –they were spead out into different countries.
Also, you mentioned:
“but he did say that outside of that, DNA was about 10 percent, 5 points more than the Greeks, Italians, Jewish people”
Keep in mind, that this is Y-dna in southern Europe, this indicates Male (paternal) lineage due to the African soldiers or male slaves — not female.
From what I’ve read, the M-dna (maternal) percentage ranges up to 45% in several North African countries and I am unsure of what it would be in middle East.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zphtZzsSl4&feature=relmfu)
I just have to say , I would really be misrepresenting my point if I didnt say that Afro Brazilian culture very powerfully acknowledges its Afro Muslim past in slavery. Ive worked with the musical director of this group , Bernardo Jose of Nacao Pernambuco, and he told me that Afro Muslim referances were in their work, I think there might be some in the clothes and head gear on this clip…
I brought in the other tribute to the Male rebelion, so, I want to make that very clear that Afro Muslim referances are very much respected in Afro Brazilian culture.
What I am stressing is foundation. If there is dress , or horn lines that are reminiscant of Afro Arab expresions ( there was one in the beginning of the Male rebellion youtube and in the Filhos do Ghandi clip, and, by gosh it wasnt disimilar to the horns you hear in the Afro Arab in India clip I brought in), the foundation of the grooves and dances are very much from the youtubes of the sub Sahara black African cultures I brought in…
So, if someone was looking for Afro Muslim referances in the Americas in the culture, Brazil is a place with that , very much so…
To you , Linda, Id like to say, Id like to think about all the things said and read, Im not stuck on any position , I want to know the truth
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I hope nobody thinks anyone ever said Gandhi was Muslim
Observations noted
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“When ‘nobody’ says otherwise about Indians in a thread about Muslims and Arabs … it is going to mislead.”
I guess this person has no idea how Brazilian culture works…In their carnival, in various cities, they take themes and do elaborate costumes and incredibly decorated floats, they dont really try to be acurate. There could be a tribute to native Indians and they use an African beat , and, actualy it all has an African beat, they could be a tribute to one culture but some article of clothing might be from somewhere else coming from a tradition before…
And, they must have missed that I stated I thought the headress in “filhos de Gandhi” was actualy Afro Muslim, and then corrected myself because I saw in the docu I brought in at the end that they saw films of Gandhi and the people around him had that kind of head gear…but the horn lines were an Afro Muslim referance
Its funny when people who know absolutly nothing about the culture , or the person studying that culture, and, make some kind of judgement and cant even read deep enough to hear a retraction
If they would actualy take the real time to study the culture they are criticising they might not be so uptight about it
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“All African women are prostitutes, and the whole race of African men are abeed (slave) stock
Ibn Sina
The Equator is inhabited by communities of blacks who may be numbered among the savage beasts. Their complexion and hair are burnt and they are physically and morally abnormal. Their brains almost boil from the sun’s heat
Al-Dimashqi
As for the Zanj, they are people of black color, flat noses, kinky hair, and little understanding or intelligence
Al-Muqaddasi
There is however no doubt that the status of the African in Arabian society became associated with the enslaved. The word for slave (Abid) became the colloq. word for African. Other words such as Haratin speak to the social inferior class of Africans. Also Caucasoid Arab scholarship has its collection of racist such as Hanns Vischer who believed African “black” skin made them a slave-race. But equal evidence exist of the contempt for the trade as evident in the writings of Al-Nasiri. Books such as Tanwir al-Gabbash fi fasl al al-Sudan wa al-Habash by Ibn al-Jahiz, and Black and their Superiority over Whites by Ibn al-Marzuban testify to this. So, the legacy of the African presents in these Arab and later Turkish lands were far from that of absolute subjugation.
By the 14th century, an overwhelming number of enslaved Africans lead to prejudice against African people in the works of several Arabic historians and geographers. For example, the Egyptian historian Al-Abshibi (1388-1446) wrote: “It is said that when the [African] slave is sated, he fornicates, when he is hungry, he steals
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This by no means represents Islam, or, how all Arabs think, but, it needs to be understood that there was Arab prejudice also…
wow, We rake Tom Jefferson over the coals , are we going to give the same judgement to the sultan and his ever so quaint mannors with his harem girls? Ah so they got to learn music…I wonder if they could practice their culture like the youtubes I brought in?
Sure, chatel slavery is worse, I totaly agree, but, this is the other side of the same coin….
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By the way, the last paragraphs in the first post I brought in arnt my words its from the Arabslavetrade site I brought in
As far as the referance above of Filhos de Gandhi and what they are suposed to do, I highly reccomend anyone who thinks they have some advice and criticism to give the Afro Bahian celebrations, by all means, go there and tell them…I think they would have some choice words in responce
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“The Arab plunders met with savage resistance, which meant that the trade had a very high mortality rate. Many documents speak of the roads littered with the weak and the dying, the abandoned and the maimed, left with yokes around their necks. Many as in the case of Tsavo, Kenya became food for lions. Children who became a burden to the coffle gang were brutally murdered in front of their mothers. ”
“Because the Arab trade favored women, it is said that some ethnic groups disfigured their faces (Mursi lip plate) in an attempt to dissuade enslavers. This is however a baseless Eurocentric anthropological fringe theory which is typical of ignorance of African culture. Europeans see what is perceived as “ugly” and assume it is universal and hence seek reasons (from their own culture) why someone would practice certain rituals”
“It is hard to sometimes separate what is because of European’s White supremacy and what is because of Arab supremacy, both have the inherent tendency to devalue all things African”
“The accusations against Eurocentricity are not lost on Arabized “Islamic” history. The tradition of subverting African history and making it a footnote or as Maulana Karenga said “a forgotten casualty” is not an exclusive European enterprise. From the legacy of the Arab Slave trade, it is clear that the social status of the African in Arabian societies has been obscured and belittled”
all from the Arabslavetrade site
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oh Haha ha ha
Isnt it wonderful to just sluff it off as “the ways of white people”, “the white opresser”, “the white American male”…how about bs….How about showing the whole story instead of just the one side we see portrayed, mostly the same information on the site I brought these quotes from, which obviously Im urging people to read the whole story, they sure got the positive side….How about letting black people know the whole truth so they dont just think it would have been so easy for a black African slave to assimilate..
I mean, we dont want to wallow in hypocrycy , do we?
Oh yeah, lets not apease the anti islamic , or , the white West…so lets hide the truth, and when arguments get weak and are seen through, just blame it on the “white man”…..bs
And who really gets lost in this Arab slave trade versus the Atlantic slave trade discusion?….Whose humanity is really ignored in trying to put a soft light on the African slave trade? Whose real culture absolutly gets buried in African slave trade and the Christian and Islamic teachings?
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@ Bulanik
Yup.
In America in the early 1900s when Anglos talked about the “race problem” they did not mean blacks, then meant Jews and Italians. Mediterraneans were seen as a different race than Nordics, one that was a eugenic threat to “the American stock”. It was not till a demonized enemy state (Nazi Germany) drove that thinking to its terrible conclusion that Anglos began to wake up and see its madness. But it was not enough to completely shock them out of their anti-black racism, though it did help to weaken it somewhat.
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Just skimming over old comments from earlier commenters from a couple of years ago, and learning quite a bit. For example didn’t know there were black Iraqi’s and black Iranians. So the black slaves got dispersed everywhere i am learning. This is a very interesting post.
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I have to admit my ignorance I thought all Arabs were Muslim. I am glad i came to this post and am learning that this is not true. This is a good blog to learn different things.
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Not sure the word ‘peace’ can be attributed to anything we are doing abroad, I understand the sentiment in which it was used. Perhaps another phrase? ‘blow back prevention’
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[…] The Arab world. […]
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This article is not correct about the essence of The Arab Nation. The Arab League States manifest the Arab Nation in it’s totality
However, that Arab League is simply the 20th – 21st century Arabist empire confederacy. This Arabist empire was founded after Arabist nationalism, lead by The British empire, kicked out The Ottoman Turks. The article does mention Arab imperial glory in facilitating European life absorbing Asian Indian and Chinese products and culture. However, this article makes manifest it’s biased Arabist patriarchs’ racist minority rulers’ affinities with the Nazi-Communist marriage .Even though the Nazi and Communist marriage were love 💘 ❤ 💕 hate fire 🔥 fighting , Reigns of Terror, the Arabist patriarchs’ invisible empire, was hospitable to the Communist and Nazi (National Socialist Racism. This was NOT caused by anything that was done by The British, French or USAmerican actions. The Arabist patriarchs, made manifest, racist Arabism, in The Arab League States occupation over North Africa and Eastern Mediterranean nations. This article is the typical kind of wishy-washy nonsense that passes through the elite western “Arabist ” experts romantic folklore.
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