Here are the ten most beautiful white Brazilian women that I know of who are famous enough to have their own article in the Portuguese Wikipedia. Merely my opinion, of course. This is very much a work in progress.
Note that most whites in Brazil are at least one tenth African by blood and many have native Indian blood as well. It is hard to know where to draw the line between whites and everyone else.
1. Maria Fernanda Cândido (1974- ) is a television actress from Londrina, a city far to the south. She modelled in Europe and was on MTV, but made her name on “Terra Nostra” in 1999. That year she was voted the most beautiful woman of the century on the television show “Fantástico”
2. Raica Oliveira (1984- ) is a model from Niteroi, near Rio. She now lives in New York with her mother. She has been on the runway in Paris and Milan and in many fashion magazines and makeup ads. She is friends with fellow Brazilian models Adriana Lima and Ana Beatriz Barros.
3. Valéria Monteiro (1965- ) is a radio and television news presenter who comes from Belo Horizonte. She has been on both Brazilian and American television (Discovery, Bloomberg, NBC).
4. Scheila Carvalho (1973- ) is a dancer from Minas Gerais. She was once part of the band É o Tchan!. She has been on television and in films. She was on the cover of Brazilian Playboy and was voted three times as the most physically desirable woman in the world by VIP magazine. She looks like she is part native Indian.
5. Carol Castro (1984- ) is a television actress from Rio. She was Ruth in “O Profeta”.
6. Camila Rodrigues (1983- ) is a television actress from Sao Paulo state. She was Mari in “America”.
7. Fernanda Tavares (1980- ) is a supermodel from Natal.
8. Isadora Ribeiro (1965- ) is a television actress from Curitiba. She has been on television for most of the past 20 years, mainly on Globo. She is part native Indian. When she appeared on the cover of Brazilian Playboy in 1989 and 1991. Her father stopped talking to her for a while after that.
9. Juliana Paes (1979- ) is a Brazilian actress who grew up in Niteroi. In most of her pictures she is just pretty, not beautiful, but sometimes she can be very beautiful. She has been considered as a possible Bond girl for the next James Bond film.
10. Camila Finn (1991- ) became the first Brazilian ever to place first worldwide in the Ford Supermodel of the World. Adriana Lima came in second in the same contest eight years before.
Whites in Brazil come mainly from Portugal and Italy, though some come from Spain, Lebanon, Germany and Poland too. So you see Nordic women there, like Xuxa and Gisele Bundchen. You do not see them in this list because I prefer Mediterranean and black women.
See also:
- The 25 most famous Brazilian models – in Portuguese, but the pictures speak for themselves.
- Adriana Lima
- The most beautiful Brazilian women
- The most beautiful black Brazilian women
- The most beautiful white women
- The ten most beautiful women in the world
- Brazil
- Race in Brazil
Adriana Lima is a virgin god i would love to meet one day haha dano
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These women are not white? they are mullatta?
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Which ones do you think are mulatta?
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I removed Ana Beatriz Barros and Adriana Lima since they are not white but mixed, even though they seemed pretty much white to me as a North American.
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As a braszilian, i woulnd’t say that MOST white brazilians are at least one tenth african but MANY are of course. Some of this women are clearly mixed (Sheila Carvalho, Juliana Paes, Isadora Ribeiro and Raica) and would not be consedered white in Brazil (at least not in southern brazil) but rather light skinned mixed women. You dont need to be entirely white to be considered white in brazil (unlike in the USA) but you have to look at least overwhelghming white (even if mediterraneam white) and thats not the case of Juliana Paes, scheila Carvalho and Raica, for example.
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That tenth figure I read on the BBC, so that makes it a fact for me, pretty much. But I will take your word about Paes, Carvalho and Raica since, as an American, it is hard for me to tell just where the line is drawn in Brazil. I will find suitable replacements for them. Thanks!
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You shouldnt take as a undoubtfull fact everything you hear on TV, not even if it is on BBC. I´ve read that about 60% or 70% of white brazilians had at least some african or indian blood but iam not well how acurate and how extensive where the surveys about this subject made. In some parts of Brazil, african descendents are not even that numeorous, while in others they are the greates part of the population wich may confirm (on those areas) the BBC news. Even I have some amerindian blood in me from my fathers family (dont have african as far as i know tough…) , along with about half dozen of european heritages…
The division lines are somewhat malleable (dont know if that is the correct term in english…) Usually people considers other white when they think taht the person looks predominantly european, but this standars range acording to which part of Brazil you are and personal opinion of the person who is judging. Carvalho, Raica and Paes have obvious substantial Amerindian admixture, in my opinion. Paes stated that she has some african heritage as well. But regardless of being white or not they are all very hot women!!
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Regarding to their repalcements, her goes three very beautiful white brazilian women (hard to figure out which one is hotter!!). Just replace the hxxp by http:
Fernanda Lima
hxxp://br.geocities.com/fernandalima_2000/foto.gif
Scheila Mello
hxxp://www.fastbr.com/loja/images/PLAY280.JPG
Fiorella Matheis
hxxp://banco.agenciaoglobo.com.br/Imagens/Preview/200711/da51a912-eb2e-4add-b4d2-5ec1f66e54a8.jpg
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Regarding to their repalcements, her goes three very beautiful white brazilian women (hard to figure out which one is hotter!!). Check then out on google:
FERNANDA LIMA
SCHEILA MELLO
FIORELLA MATHEIS
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Thanks! Especially for the comments on where the line between whites and not-white is drawn in Brazil. It is not the same as in America.
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Yes, but the “white” line is also sort of floating (and somewath political/cultural) in US to, as far is i know… for instance, i’ve heard the spaniards are not considered white but hispanics whereas italians, portugese and greek wich in average do not differ that much from them, are considered white. I’ve also been told that greeks italians and europeans jews are considered white in big cities but not by country redneck people. Even the utterly pale irish were considered “colored” in US in the past, as far as i know.
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True, the white line has moved over time to take in Jews, the Irish, Italians and so on. And probably Hispanics too in time, those who look white enough.
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Abagond, you are a stupid ass racist motherfucker..
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What makes you say that?
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abagond trust me as far as whiteness goes, even in brasil, i would say that you got only 3 white women in your list and still that 3 could be put on doubt by others, but you already know that here is the melting pot of the world.
that 3 would be maria fernanda, camila finn, valeria monteiro and camila rodrigues or carol castro. here in brasil we got many white women man you forgot the most famous and sure shots like gisele, ana hickmann or alessandra ambrosio you gotta rework that boy.
peace
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Hey, thanks. I know: it needs work. But it has been quite an education for me and for that I am glad.
I can see Isadora Ribeiro and Sheila Carvalho not being seen as white – they are (or seem) part native Indian. But what about Fernanda Tavares and Juliana Paes? You are telling me they are not white in Brazil?
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sophie dee
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What is the ethnic background of Ana Beatriz Barros? Is she part Amerindian or African?
Also, I know Alessandra Ambrosio is Italian/Polish, but I think she might have like 1/10 Amerindian. Anyone else? Beautiful. These women represent the future of humanity. It’s exciting to see.
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Fernanda Tavares looks mostly portuguese but with some of native indian. Juliana Paes has some african blood. Ambrosio does not look anyaway native american to me. She could have a bit of indian but it must be quite few and distant. Alê Ambrosio, Sheila Mello, fiorella Matheis and Ana Paula Arosio could be my sugestion for replace Sheila Carvalho, juliana Paes, Isadora Ribeiro and Raica wich are gorgeous women but also quite mixed and not even here in brazil they would be regarded as white.
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Thanks for clearing that up – and for your suggestions!
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You really need to go to school and travel man. Most women in this list are mixed.
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Which ones?
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General question to Brazilians:
1. Which of these women are not seen as white in Brazil?
2. Which white Brazilian women would you like to see replace them?
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Obviously, I’m not Brazilian but come on, most of these women look pretty mixed. (Most also have have clear West African influence, facially). Having ivory skin doesn’t automatically qualify you as white. Like I said to the chagrin of some on this blog, racial designations are similar all over the Western world. There’s differences sure but they are not dramatic.
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have you actually looked at raica oliveria.. she is not white.. clearly mixed..
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Thanks for reminding me. I have to replace her. Any suggestions?
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Raica actually looks IDENTICAL to Halle Berry from certain angles. So, I know she’s mixed. If you look up her pictures you might notice that also. Especially her ads for Bebe.
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I know you would likely never put her on(due to your personal taste)but Raquel zimmerman is one of the most gorgeous brazilian i have ever seen(I am from the same town as she) Though i rather she weren’t so thin.
Here in rio grand du sul most of the women on the list would not be considered white.
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most of the women above look like they are mixed to an extent. even when they look completely white you’ll never know. some people in my family have blond hair and blue/green eyes yet have a percentage of african blood. in my book, if they look white, they are white.
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Um…most of the women in your list are clearly not white…I dont think ive ever seen a ‘white’ person really get as brown as these women! vc nao sabe q ta dizendo burro!
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Sorry,but you foreigner guys
dont Know NOTHING about White Brazilian
Women All the girls that you shown here,are
Mixed afro/indian or Italian blends,Maria Fernanda candido for example,looks like Sophia Loren,a italian goddess from 60´s.Learn ONE thing,etnic division in Brazil is:Blacks on Northeast,Indians on North and Center,All the Whites on South and Southeast”pockets”of White and Mixed,but RIO have a large Black portion.Do You Wanna See REAL White Girls is HERE:
Marimoon,she is a Snow White modern pop host from Brazilian MTV,her picts:
Iris Stefanelli,she is another tv host here:
http://ego.globo.com/Entretenimento/Paparazzo/0,,AA1475834-7195,00.html
Ana Paula Arosio,Brazilian Actress:
http://bompravc.com.br/fotos-ana-paula-arosio.html
Geovann Ewbank(she reminds a young jennifer aniston):
http://contigo.abril.com.br/foto/ensaio/galeriadefotos_296358.shtml
one more?
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http://guriasgauchas.multiply.com/photos
ALL THE SOUTHERN BRAZILIAN GIRLS,HAVE FUN..
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What is a gaucha?
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“Gaucha”means,a female”Gaucho”Southern folk people,the”rednecks”/cowboys,Pezants or Urban habitants from that region,theyre descendents from euro-immigrants…but the original”gaucho”is a argentinian/uruguayan cowboy culture,but some of the Southern Brazilians lives near the border of these countries also..
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Er…
Several of those women are on record as considering themselves to be mestiça.
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So tell me which ones.
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Bumping this post up. . .
Saw some Portuguese comments from Mermaid lady (Sereia) “vc nao sabe q ta dizendo burro!” – and found her/those comments to be disturbing.
Of course, anonymous poster have the luxury to say what they want, but I’d like here o back up that statement. She obviously speaks Portuguese, but albeit she is more “gringa” than “brasileira”. She is living in the U.S. and has succumbed to the “Colourism” game as society defines it here….. What a crock!!!
Entre no jogo comigo e vamos bater o papo!
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juliana paes is HOT by theway,but she is mulata..good genes..b&w..
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Any girl on this list can’t be considered as a white girl totally on Brazil… Even why they have the skin darker. I’m brazilian, gaúcha (almost the same meaning of “redneck” for you, americans), white, veeeeeeery white. Except my eyes are brown and my hair almost dark! My brother has green eyes, and he’s blond…
Myths about Brazil:
=> Brazil isn’t just carnaval (I HATE CARNAVAL).
=> Brazil is not just that tropical clime, we have a nice cold weather too! For example, here on the South! I say to you to come on to the South of the Brazil and see the cold that here have! We are almost on winter. Here, it makes an weather with down of the 5ºC.
And “Sereia”, for your complain, I’ll translate what did you said.
“vc não sabe o que ta dizendo seu burro.”
“You don’t know what you are talking about, your ass!”
Still I say that: that phrase contains errors!
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Gaucha, if you think “gaucho = redneck”, you don’t know english very well.
The closest would probably be “Texan”.
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Why do you say:”Note that most whites in Brazil are at least one tenth African by blood and many have native Indian blood as well.”?There is a lot of pure white,pure native american,pure black and pure asian around her!!
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The culture difference makes the white definition very difficult!
For example, Penelope Cruz. She is an European from Spain.
I believe in Europe she is considered white.
In USA all rednecks would NOT considerate her white.
The same applies for Nereida Gallardo.
I always though that “pure blood” was something only created by the German Nazis.
I think the only pure blood in the world are the tribes uncounted in Amazon.
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Here it is list of brazilian women that in my opinion
would be considerate white in USA.
Vera Fischer
Xuxa Meneghel
Ana Hickman
Sheila Mello
Carolina Dieckmann
Susana Werner
Monique Alfradique
Ana Carolina bbb9
Alessandra Scatena
Angélica Ksyvickis
Caroline Bittencourt
Eliana Michaelichen Bezerra
Ellen Roche
Isabeli Fontana
Karina Bacchi
Luciana Vendramini
Adriane Galisteu
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Are they considered White in Brazil?
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Here it is some more white famous Brazilian chicks.
Luana Piovanni
Íris Stefanelli
Gianne Albertoni
Mirella Santos
Renata Fan
Luiza Valdetaro
Bianca Bin
Cristiana Peres
Andressa Oliveira
Carolinie Figueiredo
Fernanda Souza
Fernanda Rodrigues
Fiorella Mattheis
Tatyane Goulart
Fernanda Nobre
Sophia Abrahão
Didi Wagner
Luize altenhofen – She is my favorite
Mariana Weickert
Cissa Guimarães
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Most of those are not white.
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@ Thad
Why is that the ‘so called’ Brazilians don’t seem to stick around for any dialogue?
Gaucho = redneck? LOL…. I’ll go with gaucho is to cowboy as redneck is to caipira. (maybe…)
Caipira would be closer to country bumkin probably.
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Hi Abagond, I’m a white Brazilian of German/North Italian ancestry from Sao Paulo, Southeast of Brazil. Searching for photos of pretty brazilian women I ran into your blog. You have got some of it right and some wrong. The initial statement is probably incorrect. A recent genetic study conducted by the university of Brasilia has shown that Brazilians, whatever they look like, are in most parts of the country in fact closer to europeans than to amerindians or blacks. This seems to be because relatively few genes define appearance, therefore a lot of Brazilians who do NOT look caucasian are in fact predominantly so. The study has disclosed an average of almost 80% european ancestry in most of the country, reaching 90% in the south, the area which received the most massive european immigration. The data refers to all Brazilians, including the non whites. Therefore, it’s very likely that miscigenation among white Brazilians is overblown. It’s very pronounced among black Brazilians though. A genetic study in Rio showed blacks to be only 50% black while those considered Brown(mixed) were 67% european(on average). Since u mentioned the BBC, you may have a look at this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6284806.stm, you’ll see that Neguinho da Beija Flor, top left picture, is no less than 67% european even though he looks totally black to me! Ildi Silva is a more typical Brazilian mulatta, though in fact she is only 19% african. As to the girls in the photos, from my corner of the woods, I don’t think Sheila Carvalho, Raica, Juliana Paes and possibly, Isadora Ribeiro would be considered white in Brazil. Girls like Valéria Monteiro and Camila Rodrigues ARE however, what the average Brazilian white woman will look like, consistent with our predominantly Portuguese ancestry. The Portuguese is the element that binds whites from north to shouth, u will find them in large numbers all over, including in the South. The most numerous euro immigrants came from Portugal, Italy(largest number of italians outside Italy), Spain, Germany(third largest community outside Germany), Poland, Ukraine but there were many other nationalities. Besides europeans, there is a very large non european caucasoid population, mainly from Syria and Lebanon. The beautiful Malu Mader is an example of such. A few picks for Brazilian white women tough I think most will be too fair for your taste; the exotic Lavinia Vlasak(mix of German/Tcheck) http://www.fanpix.net/gallery/lav%C3%ADnia-vlasak-pictures.htm , Elen Roche http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Rocche, Helen Ganzarolli http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Ganzarolli , Leticia http://ego.globo.com/Entretenimento/Paparazzo/0,,AA1535886-7195,00.html
Regards,
Luca
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The initial statement is probably incorrect. A recent genetic study conducted by the university of Brasilia has shown that Brazilians, whatever they look like, are in most parts of the country in fact closer to europeans than to amerindians or blacks.
Source, please.
I am not aware of any study conducted by UnB which could have achieved a statistically significant sampling of results on a nation-wide basis.
The study has disclosed an average of almost 80% european ancestry in most of the country, reaching 90% in the south, the area which received the most massive european immigration. The data refers to all Brazilians, including the non whites. Therefore, it’s very likely that miscigenation among white Brazilians is overblown. It’s very pronounced among black Brazilians though. A genetic study in Rio showed blacks to be only 50% black while those considered Brown(mixed) were 67% european(on average).
You realize that these two statements, when taken together, make little sense? Rio de Janeiro is hardly the “blackest” place in Brazil (though probably “blacker” than SP) and the State contains about 10% of the country’s population. Given that some 70% of Rio considers itself to be “black or brown” for the purpose of that study, it’s hard to see how that 50% and 67% European average can conflate with a national European average of 80%. Again, sampling errors seem to be in evidence here, as well as (probably) interpretative errors on your part.
So I’d be very interested to see primary sources for these “facts”, Luca. From where I stand, they don’t look very factual.
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Probably got them from “Veja” magazine where alleged ‘facts’ were incorporated into an article without references. L O L
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Some of the comments provide even more proof of how much the coarse classifications really are worth – about as much as eyewitness statements. As soon as someone says woman x and y are “white”, it’s contradicted by a “No”.
Btw Penelope Cruz would be considered Spanish in Europe and most Spanish would most likely see her as Castillian or Madrilenean first of all. That’s what she is. “White” has very little significance, as little as “Black” has in terms of true background. For instance Hungarians and Spanish have very different languages, mentalities, culture, history, laws etc. Putting them in the same pot is pointless. As pointless as throwing Senegalese and Kenyans together.
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@Thaddeus
My bad, it was not a team from UNB, it was from the Universidade Católica de Brasília, results were published in the American Journal of Human Biology, according to Folha de S.Paulo.
You are Thaddeus, pretty much wrong regarding your percentages of black and brown for Rio. A full 53,6% are whites, 33,6% Brown, 12,3% Black, 0,5% other according to IBGE. Keep in mind that the study from Católica is more recent and may be more accurate. Genetics ain’t Math and it has been in constant development. The tests conducted by BBC seem to confirm this as several famous Black Brazilians who were tested in fact were genetically more European than African, including even Neguinho, who was himself quite shocked with the results!! So phenotypes are useful only to a certain extent.
Femi has made an interesting comment although she is wrong. Spaniards are white Europeans even if some of them are dark. If one would take, say, the fairest of the Kalash people, who live in Pakistan, they look like northern Europeans, see photos here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people. Yet, culturally AND genetically they are not european. If you took Penelope Cruz, Banderas or Luiz Figo and compared them genetically to other europeans they would all cluster close by whereas the blond Kalash would not.
Europeans do have close cultural and genetic ties which is NOT the same as to claim they are all the same. Same goes for Sub-Saharan Africans, Asians, etc.
@Abagond; in Brazil, Gaúcho(feminine Gaúcha), refers to either of 2 things, first: the rural culture present in the Brazilian state of Rio Grande do Sul and also Argentina and Uruguay. Secondly and more commonly, Gaúcho refers to people who are born in the state of Rio Grande do Sul.
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Looks like the guy got most of his information from the Portuguese language wiki and, even then, misanalyzed it or misreported it.
The 80% euro genes study was 5 groups of 200 people and these were not randomly selected. The guy’s quoting wiki which quotes a newspaper’s science section. To the scientific eye, there’re some serious interpretative problems in that article, too, such as the assertion that “people look more African because relatively few genes control ones physiognomy”. A quick meditation on that phrase should reveal it as nonsense: the number of genes should have not logical connection to what someone looks like. Rather, whether or not certain genes are dominant or recessive should have far more weight. The fact that the newspaper article says this and Wiki quotes it, followed by Lucas, indicates that, on down the line, we’re dealing with a bunch of people who don’t understand genetics.
the study is useful, however, in that is does show that what one LOOKS like does not always reflect one’s genetic history.
So much for human biological race.
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One final observation:
Another study, which used the same methodology but looked at 13 times as many cases (though still not randomly selected) came up with an overall result of 60% European genetic heritage.
It should be noted that both of these studies, however, make some very odd choices when it comes to picking their “African” DNA for comparison with the Brazilian samples. In both cases, the majority of African populations sampled come from East Africa or northern subsaharan Africa. This odd, given that we know that the vast majority of African slaves came to Brazil from Angola and Nigeria.
Why would one make a study like this and apparently avoid sampling the principal African populations from slaves were taken?
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The problem with most of these genetics companies (and indeed, many of the studies that attempt to ascertain African ancestry in Afro descendants) is that they tend to have a very small database of genomic samples of African peoples. They take a couple of samples from a population in Sierra Leone, for example, and use that as their reference for “African.” Obviously, all or even most, Afro descendants didn’t come from Sierra Leone, but nonetheless they feel this is sufficient. Meanwhile, they use several English, French, German, Spanish, etc samples as their reference for “European.” Even without a genetics background, one could figure out that this kind of sampling will create distortions. In fact, this is a common problem with black Americans trying to figure out their ancestry: they come out disproportionately European because a larger number of “European” SNPs are picked up and amplified, while other SNPs that don’t match the Sierra Leonean sample, but may nevertheless be African in origin, are not picked up.
I know a few black Americans who have had just his problem. In one case, two large-scale genomics companyies had a black male as 60 odd percent African, 25 percent European, and the rest Native American. The guy thought this was odd because, knowing his genealogy, he knew he didn’t have any recent European ancestors. He got a personal geneticist, who had a larger number of African samples due to his research, to reanalyze the sample and the researcher came back with 80 odd percent African, and the rest Native American, which was more in line with the man’s genealogical research.
I have little doubt that if genomics companies used a greater and more diverse group of African samples they would arrive at VERY different results.
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Thaddeus, your last observation is related to what I pointed out above.
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@Thaddeus
“So much for human biological race.” Uh hu, so you are a race denier are you? T, u r a pretty arrogant fella… you wrote that 70% of people from Rio call themselves Brown or Black, a complete falsehood which already told me you don’t know what u r talking about. And no, the “guy” did not get the info from wiki rather from Folha itself to which I subscribe. I misrepresented nothing but have not read the study so I cannot say more than what the paper reported. But gee, thanks, I looked up wiki and found another study done by more geneticists who do not know what they are talking about. ;P
I have not had time to read it(available in pdf here http://www.alvaro.com.br/pdf/trabalhoCientifico/ARTIGO_BRASIL_LILIAN.pdf) yet but it appears that in that study the researchers, those idiots, found out 60 to 66% european contribution in all regions of the country, except for the South which is over 80% european. I suppose this is the other study you were referring to, also by biased people apparently trying to increase euro genetic contribution to the brazilian genepool. LOL
As a Brazilian I know that is nonsense as the trend these days is just the opposite, because of PC and politics(such as affirmative action). Media outlets such the giant Globo corporation have told us how over 50% of Brazilians are negroes making Brazil the second blackest country in the world after Nigeria or something. The trick is to add up the Blacks(in fact already heavily mixed) with the Browns- many of whom don’t even have any african blood at all – and say they are all negroes. And there is people who fall for this crap. T, btw, Angola and Nigeria were only 2 of a multitude of other places where black africans were taken from.
L
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For those interested the official data from PNAD 2008(Brazilian population accoding to race/color):
Whites: 48.4%
Blacks: 6.8%
Brown/multiracial: 43.8%
Asian: 0.6%
Amerindians: 0.3%
undeclared: 0.1%
The state with the largest percentage of whites is Santa Catarina, 88%. The state with most blacks seems to be Bahia with as many as 16%(plus 20% whites and over 63% brown).
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@Luca Kreutz
I don’t understand what you mean by “wrong”. Do you or have have you ever lived in Europe and for how long?
What is the point of lumping people with totally different cultural backgrounds into large groups? It’s only for outsiders that it looks like “close cultural ties”, as you describe it. The “ties” are mostly introduced through globalisation and political uniformisation in recent years. Don’t forget that there were wars raging over here until fairly recently. Questionable interpretations of human genetics will very certainly not help erasing the real existing differences out of people’s heads. Those populistic classifications divide, not unite.
Btw Femi is male 😉
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Race seems to be viewed differently in Brasil than in the U.S. I am from the States, but I speak adequate Português Brasileiro and was in Brasil for nearly a year.
The discussion re race in Brasil isn’t going to get anywhere because the term and its definition is more fluid there than in the U.S.
Genetic components are well and good for biologists, but in Brasil, a common term for someone of mixed race is ‘pardo’ (literally, ‘tan).’ Many people in the U.S. who would be referred to as being ‘black’ would be called “mulato / mulata.”
It has been my experience that people there often define themselves as they like.
As others have pointed out, a larger percentage of people in Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina and parts of Paraná (the three southern states where they have four seasons), appear white than in other areas of the country.
I have seen the largest percentage of people who appear to be black in the states of Bahía and Pernambuco. You will see more people appearing to be Indígeno as you go further north, as well as in Amazonas.
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@Luca
“So much for human biological race.” Uh hu, so you are a race denier are you?
Hilarious. The guy quotes a series of articles, all of which end with “…and this shows us what bollocks the biological notion of human race is”, and still has the balls to come back with this BS! 😀
Luca, no I do not deny race: I place it in its very proper scientific context, as a socio-historical – and not biological – construct.
you wrote that 70% of people from Rio call themselves Brown or Black, a complete falsehood which already told me you don’t know what u r talking about.
Off the top of my head. I didn’t check IBGE and I will as soon as I get home.
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@ Luca
Did ‘Folha’ cite any references as to where that information came from?
Keep in mind that there are a lot of self ascribed Whites in Brazil that would be considered “non-white” by other cultures. If one could make a social experiment in time and culture, I wonder how many self ascribed whites in Brazil would be subjected to the Jim Crow laws of the Southern U.S.??? It kind of makes one go back to the very definition of race, doesn’t it? If I say I’m White, then I am White, right? But what if others say that I am not White? What am I? Do I define who I am or do others? And the basis of any given definition as to what I am is determined by what exactly??? or who?
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“Keep in mind that there are a lot of self ascribed Whites in Brazil that would be considered “non-white” by other cultures. If one could make a social experiment in time and culture, I wonder how many self ascribed whites in Brazil would be subjected to the Jim Crow laws of the Southern U.S.??? ”
Why are the racial definitions of American One-Droppist militants, white and black, always privileged over other people’s racial definitions? That’s what I wonder about.
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Why are the racial definitions of American One-Droppist militants, white and black, always privileged over other people’s racial definitions? That’s what I wonder about.
Good question…
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Poor Thaddeus… no contradiction there little man, you pick up Cavalli-Sforza’s work and in the introduction he will tell us all what “bollocks the biological notion of human race is” and then he proceeds with the data which shoots that pc crap in the introduction down. The guy ain’t stupid, he knows who he needs to please to get grants and carry on with his research. The discussion of the biological reality of race and race differences has become a taboo in the Western world, along with many other important themes. PC is a disgrace and a danger to freedom of speech.
@Jeffzinho: well, I’ve lived in the US and I saw quite a few blacks who were obviously mulattos. Except in the US, unless there has been a change recently, there is no category for mixed people. All mulattos are just blacks in the US, like Obama who is half WHITE and is still an african american or Tiger Woods, me thinks only a quarter black and also considered black. And what about Hispanic/latino? Meaningless since that covers whites, browns and Amerindians. But u know, here in Brazil people oftentimes do not agree either, as you can see from some of the comments left by Brazilians on this thread. Many Brazilians consider Obama to be black. Heck, I was surprised to see that the majority of Brazilians polled by Folha considered president Lula to be brown even though he could easily pass off as a Portuguese man. He probably is predominantly of Portuguese ancestry. http://colunas.epoca.globo.com/paulomoreiraleite/2008/12/05/volta-para-o-futebol-lula/
@Femi: Sorry about that man! 😉
I understand what you r saying but i don’t think you get my point. All I’m saying is that europeans are close genetically and relative to outsiders, culturally. Italians and Germans are not the same but they are a lot closer both genetically and even culturally than Italians/Germans would be to Chinese people. That’s all.
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LULA: Black President? by José Eustáquio Diniz Alves
http://opensadorselvagem.org/demografia-74
Sem dúvida, o presidente Lula é mestiço – como somos quase todos nós, a maioria do povo brasileiro. Mas ele é um mameluco ou um cafuzo? Ou ele é filho de uma cabocla com mulato
Non “PC” literal translation:
“No doubt President Lula is mixed, as are most of us Brazilians. But he is a half-breed or mestizo? Or he is the son of an Indian woman with mulatto?”
I took this and used “Google Translate” to put it into English, but I thought the text below sums up the problems of racial classification in Brasil nicely. I cleaned up Google Translator slightly.
“In the methodology adopted by IBGE – where in each household is only one person who responds to all residents – will pay “self-declaration of the person answering the survey.” Taking the case of Ronaldo, if he were to answer the research would say that he was white, but if it was his father, classify the child as ‘pardo’ (brown).
A major difficulty arises in defining colors. The manual counts of the 2000 census of the IBGE [i] does not explain in great detail what are the white and black, but explains a little more what the ratings are yellow and indigenous and says that the browns are those who have some admixture: mulatto, half-breed, mestizo, or mixed Mameluke. Obviously, these definitions of the census taker doesn’t facilitate the people’s choices, because, even if a larger facility to define the extremes of white and black, the “middle ground” is too indefinite. There are many blacks and whites that could easily be defined as mixed. A son of an Indian living outside of their village will be difficult to define as Indian or brown. A descendant of Asia that has some admixture can be classified as with yellow or brown.”
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The Brazilians racial definitions seem all over the map. Ronaldo considers himself white? But some do not consider Isadora Ribeiro to be white? I guess if there’s no endogamous color line, there’s not as much need for precise categorization.
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@ FG
that is why you get all kinds of responses. What you don’t find on the Census is the term “Moreno”!!! Whites, Blacks and everybody in between can be moreno! Any white person with dark hair and the ability to tan could be considered moreno by the way.
Also, the author of the article postulates that Brazilian President Lula is “non-white”.
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“Also, the author of the article postulates that Brazilian President Lula is “non-white”.”
It must not be too big of deal if it didn’t stop him from being elected President.
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Checking IBGE, Rio is about 55% declared white.
Belo Horizonte (the third largest city in Brazil) is about 50% white.
São Paulo, the largest city, is 65% white.
Adding Recife, Salvador and Porto Alegre, the next largest cities, the white percentage is 27%, 13% and 88%, respectively.
It should be noted that these six cities, taken together, make up about 1/5th of Brazil`s total population. Their total percentage of self-declared white people is 56%.
It should also be noted that many Brazilians who are self-declared “white” certainly would not pass for this in the U.S.
So while my off-the-cuff estimate for Rio, based on my American eye-mometer, was off by quite a bit, the general argument still stands: the 80% european genetic average for the nation and the 67% for Rio is probably incorrect, ESPECIALLY given the historic social pressure to whiten oneself in Brazil. In other words, what the genetic data these guys came up with would suggest is that Brazilians are by and large reporting themselves as DARKER. This would contradict every socio-historical indicator we have.
Given these studies methodological problems (no random sampling, no comparison with the African populations from which most of Brazil’s slaves came), I am very skeptical. The 80% average in particular is almost certainly far too high and its low sample size (1000) and poor distribution make it exceptionally dicey. The second study is more reliable as its N is almost thirteen times larger than the PUC study you quoted from the Folha (and, by the way, I have read both studies – not just the popular medias reports on them). It is notable that this study sees a 60% average of European genes, nationwide, which is much more in line with what we’d expect, given self-ascriptions. However, this study, too has two major problems: no random sampling and no comparisons with the principal African donor populations. Furthermore, both studies were based on URBAN populations and history and sociology tell us we should expect to see larger non-white populations in Brazil’s rural areas.
So given all these problems – and given Brazilians’ well-established tendency to whiten themselves and their children in “official” census descriptions, I’d be willing to bet that the total average of European ancestry is somewhere around 50% or lower.
Now, you claim that the “PC trend these days is to over-report African ancestry”. That may or may not be the case, but if you look at the IBGE census reports, you’ll see that this hasn’t happened to the official numbers, at least not yet. The 2000 census saw a slight increase in black/pardo percentages – not the leaps and bounds your PC conspiracy theory would lead us to suspect.
Regarding the BBC tests, you seem to be reading into them what you see. Neguinho’s result was interesting and the tests themselves do indicate that genetics is much more than what the eye would lead us to believe. But this was hardly a quantitatively significant study and even so, many of celebrities it tested ended up with high levels of African ancestry as well.
T, btw, Angola and Nigeria were only 2 of a multitude of other places where black africans were taken from.
No doubt. And yet with the exception of Equatorial Guine and Mozambique, NONE of those African regions was a great exporter of slaves to Brazil. And even those two were pretty minor. Slaves came from all over Africa, yes, but the vast majority of them came from regions which aren’t included in these studies’ genetic markers.
I’m sure you’d be one of the first to cry “foul!”, Luca, if most of the “European” genetic markers in the survey were taken from Finland and Russia. Same problem here.
Poor Thaddeus… no contradiction there little man, you pick up Cavalli-Sforza’s work and in the introduction he will tell us all what “bollocks the biological notion of human race is” and then he proceeds with the data which shoots that pc crap in the introduction down.
No he doesn’t. And I should also remind you that multiple personas are against this board’s rules, Luca.
C-S is very clear that the kind of biological groupings he’s dealing with are not at all “races” in the historical and anthropological sense of that word. He has gone to great lengths to make this point, repeatedly.
What C-S understands as human breeding groups and lineages are groupings of 200-200,000 people and he estimates that there may be over a million of these on the planet. To call such groupings “races” flies in the face of centuries of Linaerean classificatory schemes which saw races as coherent, biologically cohesive subspecies.
C-S’ understanding of breeding groups is that they are small, contextual and rapidly changing. The levels of genetic difference between large groupings which he uses to trace the human diaspora out of Africa are themselves mostly lower than the margin of error used to calculate said groupings.
C-S’ work simply does not allow one to prove the existence of human race, as the man himself has repeatedly said, UNLESS one makes a shifty semantic argument and redefines “race” as something it never was prior to our current understanding of genetics. This is pouring new wine into old bottles and goes against the grain of science in general: we do not use old terminology to discuss new theories which present a radical change in scientific paradigm. To use “race” to discuss the clinactic patterns in human biology is rather like using the term “ether” to discuss outer space: one could do it by simply redefining “ether” to mean “vacuum”, but why?
This sort of relabling occurs in no other area of the exact sciences and there`s only one reason to do it in human biology: POLITICS. Race is such a useful political tool that people all across the political spectrum are loathe to give it up and it is THIS which makes it acceptable, to some non-scientists, to make the claim you are now making: to wit, that C-S is really talking about race in his book.
If you want to subject science to your political beliefs, go right ahead and knock yourself out. Meanwhile, I and most reputable scientists will continue to believe that C-S meant exactly what he said when he claimed that our new clinactic view of human genetic distribution has made the biological-race-among-humans concept obsolete.
As for your belief that some monolithic liberal mafia controls the sciences and censors everything we write… please. This is conspiracy theoretizing at iits finest.
As someone who actually DOES scientific research and routinely writes grant proposals, some of which involve race studies, I can tell you from my own experience that the last thing most grant committees look at is the politics of a proposal. A well written, well-supported proposal will tend to get backing. The ONLY exceptions are grants given out by political front groups who are actively looking to create their own pet scientific explanations of the world. In the field of human genetics, there are plenty of these groups – but they all fund attempts to prove that race is a biological fact. Far from being underfunded, research such as that carried out by Phillipe Rushton gets far more money than it deserves PRECISELY FROM ITS POLITICAL BACKERS.
When I write a grant, I have to show believable definitions and methodologies. Rushton and crew dont have to do anything of the sort. They`re like the so-called scientists who work for creationists fronts like The Discovery Institute.
So again, you’re simply wrong: there is no politically correct mafia censoring scientific research. There are, however, several politically correct mafias which are funding badly conceived, poorly argued research which supports pet theories. All of this “political correctness”, however, is on the right-wing side of the fence.
By the way, given that C-S has been roundly criticized for his conservativism in the scientific community, your argument doesn’t make much sense. If C-S needed to do stealth research, he should have logically stepped on far fewer toes than he actually did. And if C-S’ work was at risk for political censorship, it should have been censored already, given the number of people who hate him. Instead, he’s world renowned as the primier thinker on the planet when it comes to human genetics.
Kind of an odd position for a well-hated man to be in if science was all about political correctness, don’t you agree?
The discussion of the biological reality of race and race differences has become a taboo in the Western world…
Bulls***.
Look up the definition of the word “taboo” and get back to me.
This discussion is never ending and gets jawed to death in public and scientific forums, constantly, night and day, all across the west.
Your problem, Luca, like that of most conspiracy theorists, is that science doesn`t support your pet theory. You are thus reduced to claiming that science is a thoroughly politicized field which is coherently conspiring to keep the truth away from us. This is a laugh for any practicing scientist.
Yes, science is shot through with politics. Do you know what type? The kind of arguments regarding whether you or I get the office with corner view, who gets to take a sabatical this semester, whose grad students should be put in charge of which committees and which particular minor theory in an esoteric field (understood by about 200 people at most) should be considered more or less well-supported. What very little political energies we have left over after those life-or-death debates is usually devoted to keeping the creationists and other lunatics at bay.
Believing that scientists have the political savvy and coherency to run a massive conspiracy which keeps the “truth” – about aliens in area 51, the flat earth, intelligent desig, or biological race – from the public’s eyes is pure science fiction, friend. 😀
I mean, nice try, but maybe you should direct your efforts to writing thrillers rather than popular science punditry? You seem to have a talent for conspiratorial thinking, Luca. don`t let it gop to waste.
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CoL, as my wife`s research points out, Brazilians also like to eschew racial extremes. In order to be polite, many Brazilians will simply classify themselves as “moreno” and have done with it because, as you point out, “moreno” can be used to cclassify pretty much everyone. Even blue-eyed Germanic lil’ ol’ me has been classified as “moreno” on occasion.
Also, race/color classifications here are contextual (i.e. they shift from context to context) and comparaitve (i.e., they’re built in comparison with others). So, for example, I get called “moreno” generally when I have a nice suntan and am herding a bunch of recently-arrived gringo friends around town, especvially if the majority of these people are white (and typically sunburnt). in that context and in comparison with those people, I’m no longer exactly “white”.
Lula gets glossed as non-white because he’s from a traditionally mestiço region, was born poor and hasn’t put on much polish since then. In Brazil, money whitens, but lack of money also darkens.
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Regardless of how white or how black Brazil is, there’s no denying it’s very mixed.
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That’s exactly the point. The USA represent 5% of the world population. I think their biggest fallacy is to assume that other parts of this world – even if only the wealthier ones – have to follow suit. The number of shades of grey in this world of over 6 billion is apparently too overwhelming and unfathomable for many “black, white, asian, hispanic and pacific islanders” partisans. Then there’s “others”, I almost forgot…
One can only fully understand the shades of grey anywhere else if one has lived, being educated, worked there for at least, I would say, a couple of decades. Anything else will always be a purely theoretical exercise that is not applicable in a global context. In other words, it will always remain a purely sociopolitical concept and never a scientifically accurate one.
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@FG
The episode involving Ronaldo, as far as I can remember, was an interview that he gave to a Spaniard TV channel, where he may have been misunderstood, at least that is what he later alleged after coming under heavy flak in Brazil for saying he was ‘white’; it appears in the context of discrimination against black players in Spain he answered he did not face any, possibly because he was light skinned. When the interview was made public here in Brazil everyone I know was poking fun at Ronaldo for having declared himself white. But like I said, it seems he was misunderstood.
Regards.
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Thaddeus, when you wrote in reply to my statement that race was a very loaded subject in the West these days with “BS”, I knew I was dealing with either a brain-dead or with someone with an agenda, in other words, intellectually dishonest. Anybody not living in a cave knows that few scientists even dare to voice their positions re race unless they are PC. The few who dare to cross those boundaries are subjected to the usual character assassination. There are many other subjects which are heavily “policed” in the media and Academia, such as say, the matter of immigration in the US and many, many others.
I’ll go back to the “reality of race” issue in a moment.
You wrote:
“Furthermore, both studies were based on URBAN populations and history and sociology tell us we should expect to see larger non-white populations in Brazil’s rural areas.”
Possibly true for most of the country except SP and the South, but you omit the fact that according to PNAD 2008 nearly 84% of Brazil’s population IS URBAN.
As for the BBC tests, they are NOT the only tests I’ve seen re afro-brazilians, I’ve seen one from Rio which was much more quantitatively significant. It showed self-declared blacks were only about half African. Hopefully more studies will be carried out in the future and the matter clarified.
Re the reality of race and the pressures of the politically motivated anti-racist PC crowd on the subject I’ll offer the explanation given by forensic anthropologist and professor of anthropology George W. Gill, whose assessments are supported by modern genetics:
“First, I have found that forensic anthropologists attain a high degree of accuracy in determining geographic racial affinities (white, black, American Indian, etc.) by utilizing both new and traditional methods of bone analysis. Many well-conducted studies were reported in the late 1980s and 1990s that test methods objectively for percentage of correct placement. Numerous individual methods involving midfacial measurements, femur traits, and so on are over 80 percent accurate alone, and in combination produce very high levels of accuracy. No forensic anthropologist would make a racial assessment based upon just one of these methods, but in combination they can make very reliable assessments, just as in determining sex or age. In other words, multiple criteria are the key to success in all of these determinations.
“The ‘reality of race’ therefore depends more on the definition of reality than on the definition of race. If we choose to accept the system of racial taxonomy that physical anthropologists have traditionally established—major races: black, white, etc.—then one can classify human skeletons within it just as well as one can living humans. The bony traits of the nose, mouth, femur, and cranium are just as revealing to a good osteologist as skin color, hair form, nose form, and lips to the perceptive observer of living humanity. I have been able to prove to myself over the years, in actual legal cases, that I am more accurate at assessing race from skeletal remains than from looking at living people standing before me. So those of us in forensic anthropology know that the skeleton reflects race, whether ‘real’ or not, just as well if not better than superficial soft tissue does. The idea that race is ‘only skin deep’ is simply not true, as any experienced forensic anthropologist will affirm.
“Morphological characteristics…like skin color, hair form, bone traits, eyes, and lips tend to follow geographic boundaries coinciding often with climatic zones. This is not surprising since the selective forces of climate are probably the primary forces of nature that have shaped human races with regard not only to skin color and hair form but also the underlying bony structures of the nose, cheekbones, etc. (For example, more prominent noses humidify air better.) As far as we know, blood-factor frequencies [used to deny race] are not shaped by these same climatic factors.
“Those who believe that the concept of race is valid do not discredit the notion of clines, however. Yet those with the clinal perspective who believe that races are not real do try to discredit the evidence of skeletal biology. Why this bias from the ‘race denial’ faction? This bias seems to stem largely from socio-political motivation and not science at all. For the time being at least, the people in ‘race denial’ are in ‘reality denial’ as well. Their motivation (a positive one) is that they have come to believe that the race concept is socially dangerous. In other words, they have convinced themselves that race promotes racism. Therefore, they have pushed the politically correct agenda that human races are not biologically real, no matter what the evidence.”
Gill, George W. Does Race Exist? A Proponent’s Perspective. University of Wyoming, 2000
Genetics
“A detailed genetic analysis of more than a thousand human subjects clusters them into five groups corresponding to major geographical regions. This new study shows that self-reported ancestry is a good predictor of one’s genetic make-up.
“The novelty of the recent work of [Rosenberg et al. (2002) Genetic Structure of Human Populations. Science; 298:2381-2385] is precisely that they have checked the validity of the population-sampling approach and tried to define the genetic structure of the human population without using a priori information on the geographic origin of the individuals. For that purpose, they used the structure program, which attempts to find, for each individual, the proportion of its genome that comes from a given ‘population’, whose unknown genetic constitution is estimated in the same process. This procedure is performed successively with the assumption of an increasing number of ‘populations’ or clusters (K): K = 2, 3, 4 and so on.
“Rosenberg et al. applied this procedure to 1056 individuals analyzed for 377 autosomal short tandem repeat (STR) loci. This data set is the first outcome of the analysis of a cell-line panel of 52 worldwide populations…. The results obtained…are quite remarkable. For K = 2 case, where it is assumed that there are two clusters, a contrast is found between individuals from sub-Saharan Africa and native Amerindians. Individuals from other regions seem to harbor various proportions of ‘African’ genes, with a tendency to a dilution of these genes with distance from Africa.
“Assuming that three populations are present (K = 3) leads to a split of individuals found in sub-Saharan Africa from those found in Europe, North-Africa, the Middle East and Pakistan (Figure 1, barrier 2). With K = 4, a cluster of Asiatic and Oceanian individuals separates from Amerindians (Figure 1, barrier 3). With K = 5, an Oceanian cluster appears (Figure 1, barrier 4), and we are left with the pleasant picture of a world divided into genetic clusters that closely correspond to five geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, East Asia, Oceania, the Americas and the rest, comprising Europe, North Africa and West Asia. … It thus seems that these five groups do correspond to major subdivisions of the human population.”
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Back to what this thread is about; beautiful Brazilian white women. I’ve selected a site with many such women. Not all girls are white but most are; Mostly they r from only 2 states: Sao Paulo and Paraná – you can check that in the link perfil. They are pretty representative of white women in the South/Southeast of the country. This is obviously for non Brazilians as Brazilians usually know this website. As a curiosity, pay attention to Beatriz Coelho, one of the few from the Northeast. She is the kind of probably slightly mixed type to which many brown Brazilians belong. The girls are not famous though, just ordinary pretty girls.
http://www.terra.com.br/thegirl/maisgarotas.htm
Click the picture of the girl you wanna see, then click the button “aceito” and enjoy! No full nudes so I hope it’s not against any rules… 😉
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Ah! I was beginning to think that Luca was going to deprive me of my daily dose of spleen!
First of all, “getting poked fun at” and “coming under heavy flak” are two different things, Luca. I don’t recall anyone giving Ronaldo flak except for the usual meia dúzia de gato pingado from the MNU. Laugh, at Ronaldo, people did, just like most of us are now smirking at Marina’s sudden discovery that she’s black. When na obviously mixed race person in Brazil claims that they’re are in fact ana extreme, people laugh and joke.
I know I laugh and point when you brown-skinned paulista boys claim that you’re 100% Italian, for example. 😀
Luca, I need to take you to task for something here. I don’t mind people tossing ad hominems at me. I have a thick skin. I DO mind people arguing in bad faith and building strawmen because they can’t be bothered to stay on target, however.
Here’s na example of how you do that. You originally made the claim that…
The discussion of the biological reality of race and race differences has become a taboo in the Western world…
Now, I called BS on this. You’ve come back, however, saying that…
when you wrote in reply to my statement that race was a very loaded subject in the West these days with “BS”, I knew I was dealing with either a brain-dead or with someone with an agenda
Luca, you write English very well, so there’s no excuse for you to presume that “taboo” is a synonym of “loaded subject”. Taboos are not discussed. Subjects get “loaded” (or “overdetermined” as we say in the social sciences) because they are DISCUSSED TOO MUCH and usually in dogmatic fashion.
Race is most certainly NOT a taboo subject in the west, as you originally claimed. It is indeed overdetermined and loaded. I have no problem with the statement that “race is a loaded subject in the west”. I do indeed think that the statement “race is a taboo subject in the west” is BS.
You have no call to complain about my ignorance or agenda, Luca, when you claim that “loaded” is somehow synonymous with “taboo”.
Now, is there anything interesting to respond to in your latest post other than ad hominems and rhetorical tricks? Let’s see…
Possibly true for most of the country except SP and the South, but you omit the fact that according to PNAD 2008 nearly 84% of Brazil’s population IS URBAN.
Sure. However, “urban” means, IIRC, living in aglomerations of 20,000+. Both studies took five huge metropolises . They weren’t dealing with, say Ucudumundu Mirim, Bahia, population 50,000. In short, they weren’t dealing with the backlands. Whether or not the folks living out there are rural or now aglomerated in small-to-mid-sized cities is besides the point.
Furthermore, even in the metropolises studied, there was no attempt to take a random sample.
I’ve seen one from Rio which was much more quantitatively significant.
Source, please. You ahve a bad habit of thinking you’ve “seen a study” when what you really mean is that you read about one in the newspaper. Without looking at a study’s methodology, we can’t say anything. And given that you seem to think that the BBC study is statistically significant (given that you claim it represents Brazilians in general), I am loathe to accept your memory regarding a news piece in a paper regarding a genetics study.
Ah, my old pal George Gill!
I love Gill.
Anyone who wantsd to argue a biological definition of race – but who hasn’t actually, you know, studied biology or any of that icky stuff – will eventually pull Gill up. Why? Because if you do a Google on race and its debates, George’s debate with Loring Brace on Nova eventually pops up. He’s the ultimate crutch of the Google auto-didact when it comes to race.
The fact that George fills this role is indicatvie of how discredited race theory is. George is a forencist who uses race in a pragmatic fashion. He’s an expert within a very narrow field and has, frankly, less than stellar academic credentials, Because he’s willing to go to bat for the race concept, however, he gets called up to play for the defence in major debates.
Gill’s only “proof” that biological race exists is that he can decide which race people are from looking at their skeletons. This completely avoids the problem. I can decide which race people are from looking at ANY small set of physiological characteristics. This has been proven, time and again. In fact, you can tell what “race” most people are just by looking at them. Why? Because it’s tautological! Gill is essentially saying “people who have such and such characteristics are black becauase blacks are defined as people who have such-and-such charccterstics”. This works because Gill is working within a closed definitional structure: he uses common terminology for race in order to answer common questions for laymen (i.e. “What did this guy look like?”)
The problem is that race, as a concept, presumes a certain congruency between physciological characteristics. If biological race did indeed exist among humnans, then Gill should be able to give us a relatively accurated genetic portrayal of people based upon their skeletons. This he cannot do. Why? Because the traits Gill associates with race (face morphology and skin color, apparently) DO NOT necessarily correspond to any cohesive genetic package.
Gill is QUITE aware of the fact that race is socially and historically defined, by the way, and he routinely covers his ass with statements to this effect in most of his publications. People who are ideologically committed to the biological notion of race tend to ignore these in there hast to put out the Good Word. But here’s Gill’s disclaimer from the Nova piece which you wquote from, Luca:
The “reality of race” therefore depends more on the definition of reality than on the definition of race.
Oh. So let me get this straight: we define reality and therefore define race. Thank you for telling us what we already know, Dr. Gill.
Gill is ultimately arguing against a strawman. He claims that he can practically USE race in his definitions and that this thus must mean something. But no anthropologist or biologist I know would ever make the claim that non-scientific definitions can’t be USEFUL. People can, after all, tell you your astrological sign based on the objective facts of your date of birth and the sky’s configuration at that time. This sort of classifying can be done 100% of the time – in other words, with far more accuracy than Gill can classify a skeleton. It doesn’t mean, however, that astrological signs are a natural artefact: they are a sociologically produced classification system, just like race.
Seriously, Luca, you need to do more than just google searches if you want to argue this. Your problem is that you are reifying the abstract. You believe that because we can make up classifications, said classifications really, truly exist. But if you were to read beyond the internet, you’d quickly discover that there is no scientific consensus on what races exist, or even how these should be classified.
C-S, again, makes this point repeatedly: yes, you can adjudge race if you stick to only a handful of characteristics. However, with every characteristic added, the number of races in your system multiplies. The number of races on earth, then, is not a physciological constant, but a function of how many characteristics you measure for.
You don’t read Gill’s work, so you don’t know how he qualifies for race: he uses facial indexes. Period. When one uses one characteristic, it becomes very easy to create an idealized system of race. And for most forensic, purposes, that’s all that’s needed.
What such a system DOES NOT DO, however, is adequately reflect human biodiversity.
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Funny. Luca links us to a page with Brazilian models and claims that these are “ordinary” Brazilian girls.
Want to see a more “typical, ordinary” Brazilian beauty?
Check it out…
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Good god Thaddeus, it seems I really rattled your cage eh? 😉
The girls in the website i linked to are in fact pretty ordinary indeed, ie, they are not famous models or anything even if they may aspire to be. Most of the people in my neighborhood are as white as the white girls at the terra website. And it’s just a middle class area in SP, not rich or anything.
you wrote:
“I know I laugh and point when you brown-skinned paulista boys claim that you’re 100% Italian, for example.”
Hehehe, don’t know what the heck you are talking about here. If you meant me by any chance I never claimed to be fully Italian, only half Italian, my Italian grandparents came from Veneto and Piedmonte. The other half came from Germany or were ethnic Germans fleeing the Communist ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe at the end of the war. I also don’t know any paulista “boys” who are brown and claim to be 100% Italian. But it seems you do… 😉
In fact, the dishonesty here is all yours, who on top of everything does not know how to read in your own language. I clearly WROTE THAT THE GIRLS at the terra website WERE REPRESENTATIVE OF WHITE Brazilian girls, not of ALL brazilian women. Of course I meant it in regards to their whiteness not their looks which of course are above average! 😉
So Thaddeus, learn to walk before trying to run…
To make matters even worse, there you go picking a bunch of brown or black girls from slum areas in Rio(??) and stating those are the true looks of Brazilian women. Half of the women of Brazil may look more or less like the women in the video, but you conveniently forget the other half.
As for the reality of biological race I offered Anthropological AND genetic support in favor of it and there is so much more but I will not bother with you any longer, it’s really a waste of my time. I’ll just leave it at that and readers can decide for themselves or get more information if they so wish.
For other readers, a few links with nice photos showing the influence of European(italian, spaniard, German, Slavs,etc) and Japanese immigrants in the West of the state of São Paulo. Plus the cute little town of Treze Tilias in SC!
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=61905999
Holambra, SP
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=347815
Treze Tilias, SC
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=151753
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Oh, for the first time I visited the rest of the blog and now I understand the hostility of dudes like Thad. The blog is dedicated to Blacks, their culture,etc, how they have always been victims and it seems still are, how evil white people are and the like. Ok. 😉
As a plus to my last post, I’ll post a link which contains not only photos but a youtube video showing the miss bikini Skol(brazilian beer) 2010 during a surfing event in Santa Catarina, won by Tabata Beck. Enjoy. Oh, and if I wanted I could easily find a youtube video showing a bunch of overwheight African American women dancing in some project somewhere and claim those to be a model of American women. That’s how Thad here operates.
http://wp.clicrbs.com.br/nasondascombanana/2010/05/08/fotos-iradas-e-video-da-garota-wt-2010/
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Good god Thaddeus, it seems I really rattled your cage eh?
Believe me, Luca, I routinely write long commentary. It’s an irresponsible escape from having to write academic papers, which is what I’m supposed to be doing right now.
So don’t flatter yourself: a long answer from me does not mean that you’re special in any way. It’s either an indication of my general interest in the topic (true in this case), or my boredom at having to write REAL science (very true in this case).
The girls in the website i linked to are in fact pretty ordinary indeed, ie, they are not famous models or anything even if they may aspire to be.
Who said they were famous? They are MODELS, Luca, and no, they are not the average girl next door, anywhere in Brazil. Sorry.
I also don’t know any paulista “boys” who are brown and claim to be 100% Italian. But it seems you do…
I’d lay dollars to donuts that’s you in real life, Luca. Presuming, of course, that you are actually Brazilian in the first place.
Why?
Because, in general, people who are white and who are generally considered as such don’t spend much ink on braying to the skies about how “white” their communities really are. It’s just not an issue for them.
It IS an issue, however, for certain Brazilians who would only be considered “white” in Brazil. These are the guys you typically see snorting about the internet, claiming how 100% European they really are. 😀
I clearly WROTE THAT THE GIRLS at the terra website WERE REPRESENTATIVE OF WHITE Brazilian girls, not of ALL brazilian women.
Sure, Luca. Most white Brazilian girls are that pretty. Right. And I’m the one being intellectually dishonest here…? 😀
To make matters even worse, there you go picking a bunch of brown or black girls from slum areas in Rio(??) and stating those are the true looks of Brazilian women. Half of the women of Brazil may look more or less like the women in the video, but you conveniently forget the other half.
Luca, let’s be real here: yes, there are white people in Brazil. No, the vast majority of white Brazilians do not look like those women you posted. Furthermore, many so-called “white” Brazilians are indeed brown in color. Finally, while I realize that the middle class of SP and most of the south is indeed white, the majority of Brazil looks a hell of a lot more like those women I posted than the models you found for us on Terra.
Now, you can believe whatever you like, but I actually live in Brazil and travel all over the country as a matter of course and have been doing so for more than two decades (I suspect that you do not). NOWHERE, outside of the south, will you find a population who’s majority is the same color of those women you posted.
If you seriously think half the country looks like the descendants of German immigrants from the Itajaí valley, then you’re either a fool or a troll, for only those two kinds of people would seriously postulate that a small German village in the south accounts for half the biotypes in Brazil.
Let me acquaint you with a simple genetic fact, Luca: presuming that half of the Brazilian genome has its roots in Europe (which is probably the most likely prediction) does not mean half of the Brazilian population is blonde and blue-eyed – or even white-skinned, for that matter.
And you know what? No matter how much you prate on and on about your impeccable German-Italian ancestry (even if it were true), the white supremacists in this world are NEVER going to see you as anything but a “mud person”, simply because you were born and raised in Latin America.
Sorry.
Dream on, however! Dreaming is good for the soul.
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…And let’s not forget those white Brazilian beauties, either, shall we (because everyone knows that “white” is intrinsically more beautiful than “non-white”, right, Luca?)
Here we have some white boys from São Paulo hanging out with some beautiful German-Brazilian chicks (I particularly like the one in the middle – the “Queen”. I’d be very leary about getting her wet or feeding her after midnight…)
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/G73h3HdFKJz1ry5JuNHK4g
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Thaddeus, you r an obvious obfuscator who misrepresents everything people write. Is that how u “win” arguments?? Good god, you r in academia!? You write real science??? That’s a scary thought, buhahahaha. That tells me a lot about the sorry state of academia these days. None of the people you called Sao paulo ‘white’ boys hanging around german brazilian girls would EVER be considered white in Sao Paulo. These guys are probably not even from Sao Paulo but probably from the Northeast or something. As anybody who can read knows I referred to the girls in the terra website as common in regards to their white looks not in regards to their beauty which as I wrote before is above average.
You go
“NOWHERE, outside of the south, will you find a population who’s majority is the same color of those women you posted. ”
Another simple example among many of how you totally misrepresent what I have written. I never said anything of the sort. Whites are only a majority in Brazil in 5 states, however there are sizable numbers even in the Northeast, for example, making up a total of about 49% overall.
Another example of your utter dishonesty is this:
“If you seriously think half the country looks like the descendants of German immigrants from the Itajaí valley, then you’re either a fool or a troll”
Find a post of mine where i said anything of the sort. Put up or shut up. You can’t, because I never wrote any such thing. This is in fact what I wrote in one of my first posts;
“Girls like Valéria Monteiro and Camila Rodrigues ARE however, what the average Brazilian white woman will look like, consistent with our predominantly Portuguese ancestry.”
But of course you lie like you breathe.
Thad AKA Pinnocchio goes:
“I’d lay dollars to donuts that’s you in real life, Luca. Presuming, of course, that you are actually Brazilian in the first place.
Why?
Because, in general, people who are white and who are generally considered as such don’t spend much ink on braying to the skies about how “white” their communities really are. It’s just not an issue for them.”
I never did any of that to begin with so your ‘point’ is moot. I’m of course Brazilian and I do take issue with foreign jerks like you who come to my country and start pretending to know it better than I do. Brazil gets misrepresented a lot in the US and Europe, people get a very distorted and one dimensional picture of this country which contains much human and cultural diversity. It’s like a brazilian girl who posted at this thread complaining that Brazil ain´t just carnival and mullattas or something to that effect. It really isn’t.
As for “white supremacists”, I could not care less about them or what they think but I have had friendly contacts with American racialits – not the same thing – and it was nice. Also buddy boy, when I was in the US, nobody saw me as anything but a white man as I would be one even in Finland! 😉
Agora vê se me erra maluco!! kkkkkkk
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Obfuscator, huh?
Sure, Luca. Go on. Tell us another one. 😀
Good god, you r in academia!? You write real science??? That’s a scary thought, buhahahaha. That tells me a lot about the sorry state of academia these days.
Funny how that works: if I’m not feeding the prejudices of whatever layman’s popping off about a topic, I’m obviously not a “good scientist”. And such a claim is usually followed by whines about “political correctness”… [roll eyes]
I guess people are only worried about opinions that THEY consider to be political and OTHERS consider to be correct, huh?
None of the people you called Sao paulo ‘white’ boys hanging around german brazilian girls would EVER be considered white in Sao Paulo.
Oh, really? Well, you know, that’s funny because I know plenty of Brazilians who are that color – in São Paulo and elsewhere – and who have “white” stamped on their birth certificates.
How do you figure that happens, Luca? 😀
Another simple example among many of how you totally misrepresent what I have written. I never said anything of the sort. Whites are only a majority in Brazil in 5 states, however there are sizable numbers even in the Northeast, for example, making up a total of about 49% overall.
Sure. And plenty few of those “whites” look like the girls whose photos you posted. In fact, most of them wouldn’t be classified as “white” anywhere except in Brazil.
I have some news for you, kiddo: Europe and the States considers “latin” to be a whole ‘nother race.
I never did any of that to begin with so your ‘point’ is moot. I’m of course Brazilian and I do take issue with foreign jerks like you who come to my country and start pretending to know it better than I do.
Son, let’s get real here on two points:
1) Your entire complaint on this thread so far has been that people don’t find Brazil to be white enough and you’ve taken every opportunity you can to tell us how white you and your surrounding community are – which is a laugh for anyone who’s ever lived in Brazil north of Paraná. I lived in SP for ten years, Luca, and I can guarantee you that the average paulista is pretty well mixed – though perhaps having more European ancestors than some other places in Brazil. You’d see this quite clearly if you ever left your air-conditioned, middle-class condo life for longer than the 5 minutes it takes you to catch a cab.
2) If you are indeed Brazilian, you are Brazilian-American or a Brazilian who spent a good chunk of their formative years in the States. No Brazilian who learned English in school writes English as well as you do. I HIGHLY doubt your portuguese is as fluent as your english, by the way. So please drop your pose of “offended native patriot”: in real life, you’re almost certainly some gringo’s kid. You CERTAINLY haven’t gone to school in anything like the Brazilian educational system.
I’d bet my left testical, in fact, that at least one – and maybe even both – of your parents aren’t Brazilian citizens.
Brazil gets misrepresented a lot in the US and Europe, people get a very distorted and one dimensional picture of this country which contains much human and cultural diversity. It’s like a brazilian girl who posted at this thread complaining that Brazil ain´t just carnival and mullattas or something to that effect.
That Brazilian “girl” is my 37 year-old PhD-holding wife, Luca. I translated the article for her. So perhaps you’d like to run off and teach your grandma to suck eggs now?
Oh, and by the way, if you want to whine about me in real life, I’m posting under my correct name here. So feel free to do a google on my CV and complain to MEC that I’m a poor professor because I have the gall to poke fun at your paulista pretensions.
As for “white supremacists”, I could not care less about them or what they think but I have had friendly contacts with American racialits – not the same thing – and it was nice.
Why am I not surprised? And why is it always the paulistan sons of immigrants who are so eager to prove their “whiteness” in this country? funny how you never see a racialist from any other Brazilian group other than so-called “white”, middle-class paulistas.
Whose grandaddies just happened to have skidaddled from Germany in the wake of the Nazi defeat in WWII, I might add… 😀 😀 😀 😀
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Also buddy boy, when I was in the US, nobody saw me as anything but a white man as I would be one even in Finland!
I’m sure. As long as you kept your mouth shut and told no one you were Brazilian. But I wonder what a member of the Arizona Tea Party would call you… hmmmm? 😀
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Oh, and Thaddeus, re Arizona and as a matter of fact the feelings of the majority of the American population in that connection, I agree with them. It makes 0 sense to me that illegal immigrants can pour into the US or any other country for that matter by the millions and still think they are entitled to! They are breaking the LAW!
Of course I have sympathy for most of them, they are trying to do better just like my grandparents did, but you have to do so according to the law. It’s like this all over the world. Try to sneak illegally into Mexico, for example, and if you get caught u will get deported. And of course there are reasons why the hostile elites that rule the US want all these illegals. An American friend of mine from Arizona, explained in an email to me:
“Yes, you are right about Arizona. The reason that the federal government won’t enforce immigration law is because they want a permanent underclass of people who will not assimilate or learn the language so that they can be exploited by businesses as cheap and undocumented labor. Ultimately to undermine any labor is to undermine the value of my labor too, but most Gringos don’t see it that way and it gets casts into a racial issue as if these people are Illegals because they are Mexican and not because they violated immigration laws and won’t assimilate. If Mexico is a failed state then they need to fix their own country and not try to take over ours. Both the Republicans and the Democrats want to exploit the cheap and highly-disposable labor that comes in because the politicians are owned by big business and they also want to pander to the ethnic minority classes at the expense of the middle class. At the moment the Democrats are in power nationally so they are the ones not enforcing immigration laws. This means that the Republicans, who are in power at the state level, are trying to enforce Illegal immigration (mainly as a wedge issue against the Democrats) by actually checking the immigration status of people that are arrested for other offenses. The states have to pay the bill for jails and schools and hospital costs for indigent aliens. Arizona is not actually deporting people but they do want to check papers.
I can’t imagine any other country in the world where you don’t have to show the authorities your passport/visa. It would be like me getting pulled over by a cop when driving and him asking to see my driver’s license and me saying, “F* you, you’re a racist and I don’t have to show you my papers,” and probably saying this in German or some other foreign language. So to pander to the Democrats who are up for reelection in November and will probably lose because the economy and unemployment is so bad right now, a Clinton-appointed federal judge ruled that the key parts of the Arizona law are unconstitutional, and that the federal government has the right to not enforce its own immigration laws.
It is truly bizarre but the plutocracy wants the country to become balkanized into mutually hostile ethnic groups and classes with no self-determination. They also want the middle class to be destroyed and controlled. The country may not be able to pay its bills but we will still be spending unparalleled amounts of treasure on foreign imperial campaigns. U.S. military spending is greater than all other countries put together many times over. Arizona has serious border problems but there are actually millions of illegals in every state, and they are exploited to do everything from pick lettuce–without any possibility of Union representation since they are undocumented and Illegal–to work in canneries or chicken processing plants, etc. Not all labor can be outsourced to foreign countries with cheaper labor costs, and so a huge underclass of Illegals and disposable workers is what fills in the gap. Wall Street loves it when workers get screwed, and they don’t care where the workers are. Sometimes unscrupulous employers deduct taxes from an Illegal’s paycheck but since they are undocumented, the company pockets the money and does not pay these taxes to the government. Arizona tried to crack down on this and passed an earlier law penalizing employers for hiring Illegals, but employers do not like to check documentation for disposable workers and the state enforcement has been rather lackluster since all layers of government are basically owned by business interests anyway.[…]”
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Another recent genetic study identifying racial clusters(Nan Yang et al. (2005)
From the excellent Dienekes blog.http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/10/clusters-strike-back.html
Clusters strike back
Yet another paper discovers that self-reported ethnicity corresponds almost perfectly with genetic cluster membership. See some of my previous posts on the subject. Here is the conclusion:
The current study extends the previous findings of Rosenberg et al. (2002) indicating that analysis of population structure using a non-hierarchical clustering algorithm can separate population groups based on DNA polymorphisms. We show here that both continental and sub-continental populations can be readily distinguished and that admixed populations can be examined in the context of the contributions of putative parental populations. These results were robust when k 0.99).
Overall, the study demonstrates that AIMs can provide a useful adjunct to forensic medicine, pharmacogenomics and disease studies in which major ancestry or ethnic affiliation might be linked to specific outcomes.
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Abagond, you again deleted my post. Can you inform me why this time? I did not use the word you asked me not to. If you don’t want me to post to your blog any longer, please tell me so. What was it this time? I mean you allow the poster Thaddeus to be sarcastic, hostile and totally misrepresent my posts so my right to answer seems appropriate, no?
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Please do not use any untranslated Portuguese.
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Ok Abagond, here goes, the cleansed posts without the word you asked me not to use! 😉
Plus no more Portuguese words and I offer a translation of the German saying. I hope there are no more problems.
T:
“Oh, really? Well, you know, that’s funny because I know plenty of Brazilians who are that color – in São Paulo and elsewhere – and who have “white” stamped on their birth certificates.”
BS. I should however, at the risk of belaboring a perfect simple point, state that São Paulo contains and has always contained a population of non-whites which has increased greatly in the last decades due to Northeastern migration. Large numbers of Northeastern migrants have moved down to my home state, which is still the richest in the country irrespective of the damage done by PSDB, in search of better opportunities. One of my grandfathers tells me that when he arrived in SP city, the capital was very European but the face of it has changed a lot since then. Still, those dark individuals from the photo Thaddeus showed, are not considered white in Sao Paulo at all and I risk to say with certainty, not even in the north/northeast.
T:” So while my off-the-cuff estimate for Rio, based on my American eye-mometer, was off by quite a bit, the general argument still stands:”
True, just as many tanned(or even not) Southern Europeans would not pass for whites in the US. Banderas has oftentimes played Mexicans who are not considered whites(and most are not) by white Americans. So your eye-mometer DOES NOT MEAN SQUAT. It should be said that by no means I’m claiming the self-declaration system is totally accurate or perfect. White Americans are predominantly of Northwestern European ancestry while Brazilian whites are predominantly of southern European ancestry so the standards will be different. Also, Brazil is a predominantly tropical land while the US is temperate, one needs to take into account the effects of our friend the sun. As an example, while in the US, I met during summertime a Portuguese dude who was from Lisbon. True Portuguese, not mixed or anything, he was a very dark complexioned type, with skin that became very dark when exposed to sunshine and almost jet black hair. My white American friends did not consider him white. So what? Another example, stand up the crowd of Sicilian American actors from the Soprano family side by side with the average white American of Northwestern ancestry and the differences will be quite apparent.
T: “You’d see this quite clearly if you ever left your air-conditioned, middle-class condo life for longer than the 5 minutes it takes you to catch a cab.”
More bull from you. Earning what I earn I cannot afford such lifestyle. I’m pretty middle class, drive a car, take the subway, etc. But someday, who knows… 😉
T:”You CERTAINLY haven’t gone to school in anything like the Brazilian educational system.”
Gee, Mr.Scientist PHD, you really underestimate us lil “brown” Brazilians don’t u? Buahhahahahha, btw Thaddeus, here are a coulple of photos of lil old me, the “brown” paulista, hehehehe, first as a baby, second as a young teen in the USA, where I spent a year.
Sadly, you are WRONG, yet again. I went both to private –normal for middle class Brazilians – as well as to public schools too. Plus, as an exchange student in the States, to an American public high school. Which I found to be a piece of cake btw! kkkkkkk
It should be said so that American and others can understand, that private schools in Brazil are NOT like those elite private schools in the US. While there are some of those too, the vast majority is much cheaper and ordinary. It was a system, devised by the Brazilian middle class, and a stupid one at that, to escape from a public school system that when enlarged in size deteriorated sharply. Today, we are in a hot spot. We pay 2 times for the same thing(private if one can, and taxes for the public school system that we don’t like to use), our ability to cope is diminishing and a lot of private schools are also in pretty bad shape.
T:” I’d bet my left testical, in fact, that at least one – and maybe even both – of your parents aren’t Brazilian citizens.”
Thank the skies it’s just a fake bet Thad, or you’d lose both your balls! Kkkkk. Both my parents are from Sao Paulo, though not my grandparents, as I have already explained. But hey, except for the true inhabitants of the land, the Brazilian INDIANS, everyone else came from some other place!! 😉
T: “Whose grandaddies just happened to have skidaddled from Germany in the wake of
the Nazi defeat in WWII, I might add…”
Hmmm… well, re the ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans in eastern europe, it was pretty ugly business, resulting in the deaths of some 2 million civilians. But hey, they were Germans not Jews, so they had it coming right genius?
Thaddeus: “Let me acquaint you with a simple genetic fact, Luca: presuming that half of the Brazilian genome has its roots in Europe (which is probably the most likely prediction) does not mean half of the Brazilian population is blonde and blue-eyed – or even white-skinned, for that matter.”
Firstly, although you disliked the conclusion of the genetic studies conducted by geneticists, the data clearly shows that more than just half of the Brazilian genome has its roots in Europe. 60-66% in most regions up to more than 80% in the South. Then Thaddeus, AGAIN, you totally MISREPRESENT my position since nowhere did I write half of the Brazilian population is blonde and blue-eyed. Most of the whites will look like Mediterranean whites and although imperfect, the official data is the best one has. Also, a point I C-L-E-A-R-L-Y made was that many Brazilians who have predominant European genetic ancestry DO NOT look white. But, in your case, an old German saying suits u like a glove; Gegen Dummheit kämpfen selbst Götter vergebens!
(against stupidity even the gods struggle in vain)
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re Arizona and as a matter of fact the feelings of the majority of the American population in that connection, I agree with them.
Oh, gee, why am I not surprised?
The white “Brazilian” who believes in racialism and whose German greats ran to Brazil immediately following WWII thinks “illegal” immigration is horrible.
They are breaking the LAW!
Oh no! Not the LAW!!!!
First of all, Luca, whether or not something is illegal does not make it moral or immoral. The question is, is it a good law? I`m married to a black woman, for instance. That would have been illegal in several American States 50 years ago. By your logic, however, I would be “breaking the LAW” so I should have been entitled to no rights at all.
Secondly, given what you’ve said about your family, I HIGHLY doubt your ancestors came to Brazil 100% legally and above board. Ex-members of the Nazi Party and the German Wehrmacht were not allowed to freely immigrate to Brazil back in the 1940s and ’50s, so I’d lay pretty good odds your great whatever told at least one lil’ white lie to Brazilian immigration authorities when he came here.
Finally, you say “Try to sneak illegally into Mexico, for example, and if you get caught u will get deported.”
The point about the Arizona situation isn’t that people are up in arms over the deportation of illegals. Even people, such as myself, who believe that most immigration laws are immoral understand that if you cross ilegally and get caught, you get deported. The problem with Arizona is that it enshrines ethnic profiling as an acceptable reason to harass and detain anyone who looks foreign until they can prove their immigration status. THIS is what people are up in arms about, Lucas.
So you agree with ethnic profiling do you? Your grandad would have been proud.
Yet another paper discovers that self-reported ethnicity corresponds almost perfectly with genetic cluster membership. See some of my previous posts on the subject.
Yeah. So?
Yang isn’t claiming that these findings indicate that race exist. All they indicate – and all Yang claims – is that people in general have a pretty good idea of their ancestry. “Ethnic groups”, “breeding groups” and “populations”, which are the terms Yang uses, are not taxonomical units and are not, in scientfic terminology, synonyms of race.
Look, Lucas, all banter aside, I`m going to try to explain this issue to you as I would a student. This is a damned serious explanation. You claim you hate “politically correct” science? Fine. This is as objective and correct an explanation of why human genetic diversity is not biological race as I can muster. It is based on the works of today’s top geneticists, and not on a few studies taken out of context and ballyhooed by internet cranks.
If you SERIOUSLY want to argue for the existence of human race and not look like a yahoo dabbling in biology, these are the points you need to meet and refute. Ignoring them or claiming that a shadowy, all-powerful liberal mafia keeps them empowered as a paradigm agansit all sense and reason just makes you look stupid.
Your problem, Lucas, is that you think that patterned genetic difference MUST MEAN that race has an independent existence as a biological fact.
It does not.
As C-S has said on several occasions (a comment which you choose to cheerfully ignore because it doesn’t slot nicely into your political ideology regarding him), race is an abstract and arbitrary concept created by investigators, not mother nature.
Ultimately, “race” can mean any level of genetic difference at all. One could argue that there are, in fact, 6 billion human races on the planet, given that every human being has significant genetic differences from every other (except for identical twins).
What, then, is a “significant” level of genetic difference for the purposes of determining “race”?
There is none. Or rather, each investigator determines for him or herself what this threshold is. Set the threshold at a very sensitive level, and we have 6 billion races. Set it extremely vaguely and widely and we have three or four. Which is more correct? Depends what you need? you make the determination, not mother nature.
The number of races one gets is DEPENDENT UPON an a priori decision made by the investigator as to which characteristics he’ll choose to see. With the onset of DNA mapping, this problematic has shifted somewhat, but remains essentially the same: now the question is what degree of genetic difference does the investigator find significant for the definition of race?
When our results are dependent upon our decisions regarding the definition of our variables, Luca, then what we`re dealing with is a SOCIAL, PHILOSOPHICAL and POLITICAL phenomenon, not a biological one. Race REFERENCES biology? it is not determined by it. It is determined by the a priori definitions of racial investigators as to what is significant difference and what is not.
This is EXACTLY what George Gill is getting at, that clever fox, when he covers his ass by saying The “reality of race” therefore depends more on the definition of reality than on the definition of race. If you define a certain set of characteristics, observable in reality, as significant for race, then you can divide humans up based upon those characteristics. Define reality and you define race. Q.E.D.
This point, by the way, has been repeatedly proven in the history of biology. There are a nearly infinite number of different human taxonomies because each researcher tends to define another set of characteristics – or another level of genetic diversity – as “significant” to the definition of race.
Yang’s article should cue you in on this, by the way: what’s the “race” of his typical informant from southern Mexico? Is it “hispanic” (a term he uses to classify this sort of person), or is it “Mongoloid” (another term he uses, apparently eschewing a view that significant genetic difference exists between East Asian and Native American populations)? It could certainly be “American”. It could even be “Mexican”.
In reality, the person probably doesn’t slot genetically, neatly, into any of these categories because they are all abstractions built by the researcher which do not correspond to any given genetic “package”. In C-S’ understanding of “significant” genetic difference and breeding groups, the guy probably belongs to a small group of 500-20,000 people who’ve been interbreeding for several hundred years in a series of villages in southern Mexico. In genetic terms, NONE of the terms used by Yang qualifies him adequately.
But that’s OK, because Yang is not making the claim that there’s a discrete subspecies or race out there which can be used to classify this guy. He’s simply saying that there are a series of popular classificatory terms which map pretty closely to what the guy says he is. Again, this shouldn’t surprise us because people do indeed tend to know where their ancestors come from.
Yang’s article is essentially saying “If you ask people what their astrological sign is, you’ll find that it closely corresponds to a popular system based on their birthdates”. That doesn’t mean that Virgos, say, are a fact of nature.
The new clinactic view of human biodiversity allows us to “zoom in”and “zoom out” as necessary, choosing the level of genetic significance for each case in accordance to our pragmatic needs. It is wholely unconcerned with creating a cohesive, fixed and ultimate taxonomy of human subspecies because it has been proven, time and again, that such a taxonomy is the fruit of the researchers obsessions and not an objective, observable fact.
In the old, classical racialist mode of thinking, it is very important to slot our Mexican friend into a nice little “sub-species” box which will then define him genetically. This view may have had some small and initial scientific utility in the 18th century, but it fell prey to the sin of reification in the late 19th. It finally jumped the shark in the early 20th.
The clinactic view realizes that these sort of descriptions are ideal typifications which should not be reified. Their limits are set by us, according to our needs. We can thus classify our Mexican friend according to a series of taxonomies, organized according to our pragmatic needs, each of which is equally correct.
This, by the way, is what allows George Gill to tell what a dead person’s race “really” is. All he needs to know is what set of “racial” categories are significant to you and he can map the observed data to those and give you your result. He provides pragmatic results, yes, IF you provide him first with the set of taxonomic classifcations you find significant.
So you see, Lucas, your concern with race and “race denying” is going at human biology bassackwards. You’re trying desperately to save an obsolete classificatory concept, apparently because you have some emotional or political attachment to this concept. “Race” is contextual and set by us as part of the classificatory process. WE build it, not mother nature.
To perceive this is not to fly off into the wasteland of postmodern semantics: it is the KEY to understanding and harnassing human genetics. This is why I like to say that using the race concept to understand human biology is like using Newtonian physics to understand chaotic systems. Presuming a large enough computer, it could possibly be done, but why would you want to do it? You don’t need to: there are better theoretical models which can be used and which give better results and which don’t waste all that computer time.
Only a person who was illogically or politically committed to the old theory simply for its own sake would try to pour new wine into old bottles in this way.
Scientific theories are tools which help us perceive the world, Lucas. When they stand in the way of our proper perception of reality, they need to be superceded. Racialism is an obsolete, 19th century understanding of human biodiversity. To claim we need to hold onto it at all costs in spite of its obvious limitations is as illogical, ultimately, as claiming that Darwinian evolution must be a lie because it contradicts a literal interpretation of Genesis.
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Luca, if you want to “prove” your Portuguese skills (though what you think you’re proving in an anonymous forum like tthis is beyond me), post stuff over on my blog. If you must.
Abagond’s official site language is English.
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By the way, we are in Florianópolis today, grooving on all the multi-colored wooden shantytowns full of the white descendants of German and Polish immigrants.
As Ana Paula says, “White people look so grubby when they’re poor…”
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Thaddeus: “By the way, we are in Florianópolis today, grooving on all the multi-colored wooden shantytowns full of the white descendants of German and Polish immigrants.
As Ana Paula says, “White people look so grubby when they’re poor…” ”
He,he,he, I bet you got off on that eh Thaddeus? all those grubby white trash in Floripa, made your day eh?
Poor man…
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It does give one pause to wonder when guys like yourself come around with the “Brazil is 80%” white rap, Lucas, what exactly you’re trying to prove, especially when you toss up a bunch of models as great examples of “the white girl next door”.
Even in a city like this one – which is so white you need to wear shades – very few of the residents look anything like those women you posted. You know why? Because most Brazilians are still poor, black, brown, or white, and for a series of reasons having to do with diet, bad health care and lack of opportunity to excercise, most poor people aren’t exactly model quality.
So when you start posting models as “yer average white Brazilian chick”, it makes one wonder what part of Jupiter you’re cooking on.
Maybe all that drumming is shaking something loose up there, neh, Bruno…?
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Thaddeus: “when guys like yourself come around with the “Brazil is 80%” white rap, Lucas”
Again, as always, your LYING. I never said anything of the sort. Anyone wishing to find out what I DID write, read my above posts.
Thad: “especially when you toss up a bunch of models as great examples of “the white girl next door”.
Another lie. I never said that. Don’t u ever stop? 😉
What I really said, more than once was: “I clearly WROTE THAT THE GIRLS at the terra website WERE REPRESENTATIVE OF WHITE Brazilian girls, not of ALL brazilian women. Of course I meant it in regards to their whiteness NOT their looks which of course are above average!”
However, I will add that there are a lot of beautiful women in Santa Catarina, in Floripa and elsewhere and it is not at all that hard to see them. Thaddeus, maybe, if you took off your ideological colored glasses for just a moment, you might actually see those many pretty white girls around you.
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Again, as always, your LYING. I never said anything of the sort.
Lucas, you claimed that 80% of Brazil’s genome is “white”. You deny this now?
As for the girls you posted, who are models, this is exactly what you said:
They are pretty representative of white women in the South/Southeast of the country.
So now you`re claiming that I`m lying when I say that you believe these girls are good examples of the white girl next door?
“Pretty representative of white women in the south…”
Your words, not mine, Lucas. I never said you claimed these women were representative of all Brazilians. Look at your own quote of my words: you’re setting them up as good examples of the average white chick.
They are not. Period.
It doesn’t help you any to call me a liar and tell people to look up your posts when you’re writing stuff like this. 😀
As for there being pretty white girls, Lucas, of COURSE there are. There are pretty girls of every color in Brazil. Women rarely look like those models who claim are “representative” of white women, however. Pretty people – of all colors – are the minority.
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Thad: “Lucas, you claimed that 80% of Brazil’s genome is “white”. You deny this now?”
Which is of course quite different from saying 80% of Brazilians are whites, which I NEVER said. Also, it ain’t me who is making the claim, rather a group of university researchers/geneticists. Another paper, available in English at http://www.alvaro.com.br/pdf/trabalhoCientifico/ARTIGO_BRASIL_LILIAN.pdf makes a case for between 60% and over 80% depending on the region.
Thaddeus: “So now you`re claiming that I`m lying when I say that you believe these girls are good examples of the white girl next door?[…] It doesn’t help you any to call me a liar and tell people to look up your posts when you’re writing stuff like this.”
It will help a lot if people actually read what I wrote because they will see that you always quote-mine me and distort what I mean. They’ll see then, that you indeed “debate” in bad faith.
I have also noticed you completely ignored the excellent points made by my Arizonan friend on the issue of mass illegal immigration into the US. Just curious, are u in favor of open borders, is that it?
The big problem with self-righteous creatures like you Thad, is that you guys live in a dream world which never existed, does not exist and will NOT ever exist, despite all the top-down social engineering, which, btw, creates a lot of resentment. More later! ;P
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I was not aware that race could take up 80% of the human genome. Where does that figure come from?
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Lol. Genes themselves don’t even make up anywhere close to 80 percent of the human genome.
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I have also noticed you completely ignored the excellent points made by my Arizonan friend on the issue of mass illegal immigration into the US. Just curious, are u in favor of open borders, is that it?
Actually, I ignored the points your friend made because, as I explained, they are not germaine to the polemic now being discussed in Arizona.
Your friend appears to be prejudiced against Mexican immigrants – whether his prejudices are valid or not is another question. He would have the same complaints whether or not Arizona`s law existed and something tells me that he will always have them, independent of the number of Mexicans actually in Arizona.
But his complaints are germaine to immigration policy in general – which is not what Arizona`s law addresses.
Arizona`s law enshrines racial profiling as an operative tool of law enforcement. THIS is the problem with the law and THIS is the debate about it, not whether or not Mexican immigrants are good, bad, or indifferent for the country.
So why should I address your friend`s points , which aren`t “excellent”, by the way, but highly polemical? They have nothing to do with the current debate regarding Arizona`s law.
With regadrs to your claim that you never said Brazil was 80% white, only that 80% of its genome was white… that`s a rather non-sensical argument for you to make, don`t you think, seeing as how you`re also arguing that races exist and that they are defined by genetic congruencies? I`m not distorting your arguments here, Lucas? I`m just presuming that you`re being consistent.
However, if you want to argue on the one hand that race is a genetic construct which can be seem in terms of genetic proximities within a given group, and yet on the other that race is defined by “what people look like”, go ahead. It only makes it blindingly clear that you’re talking straight out of your ass when you tell us that you understand the genetics behind human biodiversity.
(And how Brazil could have 80% European genes and still “look black” is something that’s a logical impossibility, if we are indeed talking about race as a biological construct and not as a prejudice, is beyond me, but that’s another debate…)
As for your claims re: typical white women in Brazil… Son, you were the one who said those models where – and I quote – “Pretty representative of white women in the south…” My saying that you’re claiming that they are “the typical white girl next door in the south” is simply another way of saying th same thing.
Let’s boil it down: you think white models are representative of white beauty in the south of Brazil.
They are not.
Simple as that.
The big problem with self-righteous creatures like you Thad, is that you guys live in a dream world which never existed, does not exist and will NOT ever exist, despite all the top-down social engineering, which, btw, creates a lot of resentment. More later! ;P
So let me see if I understand this… You seem to think that people like me (whoever they might be) are living in a dream world and yet that we simultaneously have power to conduct top-down social engineering? Is that it?
Son, wake the f*** up. The people who are conducting “top down social engineering” in this wworld are hardly anti-racist academics. They are major corporations. Open your eyes and notice who’s trying to scrub your little pink brain everytime you turn on the T.V. or go see a movie: it is hardly people like me.
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Oh, yes. And I am full square in favor of open immigration policy for people who aren’t dangerous criminals. I can’t understand how anyone who claims to be a “conservative” or “libertarian” or who claims to be in favor of “individual rights” could be against such a thing.
Want to talk “top down social engineering”, Lucas? Immigration law is and always has been one of the worst examples.
But like most “people like you”, you’re not REALLY in favor of liberty and freedom, are you? You`re only in favor of it insofar as you can have it yourself. Screw what those other people get, neh? 😀
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When I think of Brazilian women I think of a tan skinned, exoctic beauty, not pale, plain white!!! You can see that garbage every day just look out your back door. I dont want to see a blonde Brazilian woman unless she has dark skin and full lips! Give me a break!
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In Brazil everyone wants to be white. Even black people think they are superior than some with darker skin or blacker.
Anyway, instead of everyone like their skin color and worth it, in Brazil, everyone wants to be white.
On Tv we can count the black skin actors, they are very few on TV.
Brazil hides his racism with subtlety, so minority can’t fight against a false friend that say he loves them.
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Thaddeus and Lucas,you are typical less educated brazilians writing giant posts for nothing,i think you are just young annoying nerds with you Counter Strike-esque flames.
AGAIN,i will show to you foreigners the Ethnic map of Brazil
Blacks on the North(From São paulo to Pará)
Whites no The South(From Paraná to Rio Grande do Sul)
we have some mixed freaks here,like a white girl with a curly hair,or a blue eyed black girl also with a curly hair,or the black girl with a straight hair and without blue eyes,white girl with straight hair with black eyes.
So,Americans/europeans,please send more white girls here,come to Brazil to save this country,yes im a racist half-white freak male
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I am Brazilian and Juliana Paes IS NOT WHITE. What is wrong with you?? Anyone can see that her skin is BROWN!!! She is totally mixed and NO ONE thinks she’s White!! Take her off the list, you’re gonna make Brazilians come off as insane!!
It’s not us that consider her White, what are you doing?! She ISN’T, she doesn’t even look White! She’s a “mulata”.
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I completely agree with Zé Fernando. You are saying that even people that DON’T look White are considered White but they’re not. Especially Juliana Paes!!!
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I see that you’re asking for suggestions, so… Alessandra Ambrósio, Gisele Bündchen, Paola Oliveira, Wanessa Camargo, Ana Paula Arósio, Angélica, Luana Piovani, Fernanda Vasconcellos, Sandy Lima and Juliana Didone. They’re White.
And please, please, never EVER say again that we consider Juliana Paes White! She is obviously African too and not far back.
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SO HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM AMERICA?
AMERICA IS VERY MIXED SINCE WAY BACK AS WELL…..I BET MOST AMERICANS OR “WHITE” AMERICANS ARE MORE MIXED MORE THAN BRASILIA B/C IT WAS NOT POPULAR 2 B MIXED UNTIL ABOUT 2 AND 1/2 DECADES AGO IN THE US,
AMERICA DOES NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT “LATINA” MEANS, THEY THINK IT AUTOMATICALLY MEANS YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC RACIAL MAKE UP, WHEN IT JUST MEANS THAT SPAIN OR PORTUGAL WON OVER ENGLAND IN THE LMAND YOUR IMMIGRANT GREAT…GREAT…GREAT….GRANDPARENTS CAME FROM,
NOT TO BE RACIST B/C IT GOES BOTH WAYS,
IT HAS BECOME MORE POULAR TO BE MIXED IN THE US NOW, SO MANY LATINAS PLAY IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE (THE ASSUMED THOUGHT THAT THEY ARE OF MIXED RACE OR MORE MIXED RACE THAN AMERICAN EUROPEANS,
HARD TO TRACK WHEN AMERICA FORCED MANY NATIVE AMERICANS TO MIX AND ABANDON THEIR CULTURE (EVEN FORGET AND BE ASHAMED OF IT- SAD AND WRONG!!) SO I WOULD 100% SAY THAT MOST OF AMERICA IS MIXED
WHEN THEY ARE REALLY CAUCASIAN AND NOT MESTISO, WHICH IS WHAT MOST THINK OF AS “LATINA”, BUT ACTUALLY IT IS THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT SYSTEM THAT GIVES $$$$$$$$ TO THOSE WHO CAN CLAIM A CERTAIN % OF NATIVE AMERICAN HERTIAGE (I THINK THAT IT IS AT LEAST 15%) SO YEAH, BRAZIL DON’T GIVE $$$$$$ TO MIXED AND NEITHER DID THE US UNIT RECENTLY, SO I GUESS THAT EXPLAINS IT,
MAYBE AMERICA SHOULD REALIZE IT AND NOT BE SO RACEIST, MOST OF US ARE MIXED SINCE OLD WORLD (EURO) TIMES FROM NORTHERN AFRICA (WHICH EXPLAINS THE VAST VARIATIONS IN LOOKS, NOSES, CHEEK BONES, EYE COLOR, HAIR COLOR, EYE SHAPE, ECT.
IT IS BEAUTIFUL, ASIAN AND BLACK CAN’T CLAIM THAT BEAUTIFUL DIVERSITY (THOUGH ASIAN AND BLACK PEOPLE ARE ALSO VERY BEAUITFUL AND ONE OF A KIND JUST LIKE US MIXED OR “WHITE” PEOPLE-WE ARE RANGING IN SKIN TONE TO ANY RACEIST PEOPLE WHO CLAIM THIS TO BE RACEIST
IS GAZELLE WHITE OR BRASILIAN? SHE IS BOTH, AND DUH YOU ARE RACISTS IF U THINK THIS MATERS, LOOK UP RACISM IN THE DICTIONARY, AND YOU WILL FIND THAT POSING THAT QUESTION IS IN DEED RACIST, THER IS NO SUCH THING AS REVERSE RACISM CUZ IT GOES BOTH WAYS UP DOWN AND DIAGANL, IF YOU CARE THEN YOU ARE RACIST, IF YOU AHVE TO ASK, THEN YES YOU ARE RACIST
WE ARE ALL OF THE HUMAN RACE RIGHT?
WE ARE MIXED, DUH!!!!!!!
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I don’t really care what ethnicity or race they may be. Beauty is beauty and I appreciate it as such.
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You still have some mixed race women posted. Whites would not consider some of these women ‘white’.
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Abagond:
The so-called whitewomen you have listed are Creoles(Mixed Whitewomen). Why is it that blackwomen acknowledge the other blood in them, but whitewomen don’t? Whitewomen who are descendants of Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Italy act as if they’re pure white when they’re not. All of them are (POR)Product of Rape women. Their white forefathers raped blackwomen, indian women, and asian women. Yet, they see themselves as superior to all 3, Why? Yes, they’re beautiful women. But, it’s time for mixed whitewomen to stop the bs. Taking credit for beauty they didn’t create is not Kosher…Real Talk! Blackwomen are the source of their beauty, yet, are still discriminated against in Brazil, Cuba, DR, Puerto Rico, etc. This is why i refuse to acknowledge the “Latina” nonsense that is prevalent at this moment. Spanish and Portugese women make millions from the fact that they look like blackwomen dipped in cream. That’s cool and all, but, where are the sistas? If blackwomen are not given proper credit and can’t benefit from their own beauty, whitewomen in Brazil and other spanish-speaking countries need to avoid black folk altogether. I can’t respect a whitewoman who doesn’t keep it 100, as it relates to the blackness within her…i hold them to a higher standard.
Tyrone
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@Tyrone
“Spanish and Portugese women make millions from the fact that they look like blackwomen dipped in cream.”
I’m pretty sure you have no idea how Spanish (from the country called ‘Spain’) and Portuguese (from ‘Portugal’) women look like and you meant Latinas. If that’s what you meant, you are still wrong and amazingly ignorant. I mean stuff like the fact that there is no such thing as a pure black woman or a pure white woman. Or linking Greece to colonialism. Or being unable to realize that what looks like “blackwomen dipped in cream” to you, can look like white women with a tan and fuller lips to someone else.
“Brazil and other spanish-speaking countries”
Yeah, right.
Do everyone a favor and read more high school-level textbooks and less blog posts.
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Peanut? In what part of Brazil are you now? South Brazil is white country..better don’t go there if you’re not white. Many of those people are racist.
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Tyrone said :”Blackwomen are the source of their beauty”
That’s funny. Tyrone, keep your African AMERICAN racist victim-hood in the USA, we know what we are and Brazil is a different country!
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Peanut, if your from America, please go back, lol.
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Oh come ON!!i never saw so ignorant,cultureless and actin like animals,in this thread.Im a Man from Brazil,and you racists dont know about brazilian women.WE Have the most beatyful woman,sorry bstards,you didnt lay dow different kind of girls,i had sex with different girls,different races,im not racist at all…
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And when the weekly news magazine Veja described the wife of Brazil’s president, Michel Temer, as “ beautiful, modest and a housewife ” in April 2016, feminists transformed that stereotype into a meme showcasing empowered women. Temer came to power following the impeachment of Brazil’s first female president, Dilma Rousseff. Many saw Rousseff’s ouster as misogynistic. Feminists were determined that Brazilian sexism would no longer go unchecked.
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