Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and to this beholder Halle Berry is hardly the most beautiful black woman in the world. I have several lists of beautiful women on this blog and people keep asking, “Where’s Halle?” So this keeps coming up. I will write my opinion in this post and point readers to it.
First of all, I do think Halle Berry is beautiful. I never said she was ugly and never would. I am not blind. I have thought she was beautiful ever since 1992 when I saw her in “Boomerang” (pictured). She was in “Jungle Fever” the year before but there she played a crack lady so her beauty was not apparent (not unless you thought about it).
So it is not a question of whether she is beautiful but only if she is the most beautiful. On that score I think there are plenty of black women who are better looking, like Angela Bassett, Sade, Tyra Banks, Gabrielle Union and Lisa Bonet to take some better known examples.
Some women I just cannot tear my eyes off of – like Gabrielle Union, Lisa Bonet and Sanaa Lathan. It seems to be something wired into me, something I cannot control, not without an effort. Halle Berry does not affect me that way. So that is another way I know she is not the most beautiful, not to me.
When I look at Halle Berry I can tear my eyes off of her. She is pleasant to look at and has a nice smile, but there does not seem to be anything deep to it. When I look at her eyes I feel nothing. When I look at Lisa Bonet’s or Sade’s eyes, for example, I do feel something, they get to me, they draw me in. I generally like women with beautiful eyes and lips and a thick figure. Halle Berry has none of that.
Even in “Boomerang” itself I thought Robin Givens and certainly Lela Rochon were better looking (but not Grace Jones). Even Toni Braxton, who sang a song for the film, I thought was better looking.
Back then my judgement on the matter was much purer: she was not yet a big name in Hollywood and I did not know she was half white, so those things could not affect my judgement.
It seems like what Beyonce is to music, Halle Berry is to black beauty: both seem to be pushed by Hollywood, their publicists or whoever, way beyond their merits. They are both good, but not that good. You wind up getting sick of them, almost hating them.
Hollywood seems to push Halle Berry as the height of black beauty. I mean, she is a black beauty, of course, but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.
See also:
- Halle Berry
- The most beautiful black women
- Hollywood
- black actresses
- Women not pictured above:
- My own taste in women:
“but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.”
I have to agree with this. Although I do think she is pretty no doubt, but she is not the most beautiful to me. I think people are saying that because she is hyped up as so. Same with Beyonce. Oh yeah I love Lisa Bonet. She is so hippie I love it!
You are to get jumped on for this Abagond be prepared. Same for what you said about Beyonce lol
I co-sign. Halle is pretty but I think Res puts her to shame. Also, I think there maybe a typo in the lines:
“not without an effort. Halle Berry does affect me that way. So that is another way I know she is not the most beautiful, not to me.”
Shouldn’t it be that she “doesn’t” have that affect on you?
Thank you Abagond for writing this post. I’m sick of mainstream media dictating who’s beautiful and who isn’t when it comes to Black women. Besides, they only anoint one Black beauty at a time. Yes, Halle is certainly beautiful but there are thousands of Black woman celebs who are beautiful but aren’t showcase in any form.
La Reyna
Yeah Dani Abadond better prepare for all the Halle defender LOL
But seriously I too think Halle is pretty but not the most beautiful black woman there is.
What I dislike is that when I’m watching some type of makeover reality show thing and they are making over a black woman they always say “you are going look like beyonce or Halle.” I mean are they the only black women in Hollywood?
I remember being at a photoshoot and the photographer was saying “Be more Beyonce.” and i said “I was thinking more Tyra or Brandy, some other famous black woman besides Beyonce”
Gen:
Thanks for catching that typo! I think Res is better looking too.
Aiyo said
What I dislike is that when I’m watching some type of makeover reality show thing and they are making over a black woman they always say “you are going look like beyonce or Halle.” I mean are they the only black women in Hollywood?
LMAO yes! I’ve noticed this on makeover show when they makeover a Black woman. They always use Halle and Beyonce like they are the only Black women celebs that are pretty smh. That’s why I can’t stand the way they use women of color as “one beauty at a time” it’s frusturating,
In that picture of Halle Berry she could be my sister, and there are no recent white folks in my genealogy, so I don’t understand what you think about pushing white beauty, unless it is the straight hair.
I think you like a more angular quality to a woman’s face. My son loves Angela Bassett, even though she’s old enough to be his older sister.
Wow! I never thought of Halle’s beauty being more about white beauty than Black, but that would explain white people’s obsession with her, and why she’s pushed as being the best representation of Black beauty by whites. I never really got the obsession with her either. She’s a very pretty lady, but I see ordinary Black women who I think are much more beautiful almost every day of my life.
omg aiyo my mom has done whole celeb compaarisom thing to me various times…i dont like make up and stuff and one time me and her were walking through the cosmetics section talking about hair and non-stop she would mention halle berry, and im like “so??” i think she did that mostly because that was the only biracial celebrity she knew (surprisingly she found out she was biracial before i did) and i think she felt i needed a celebrity to feel that something was okay to do.
i actually don’t like to look up to celebs. because its a total let down.
and i might be alone in this but i actually like halle berry with longer hair. but i haven’t seen any of her acting other than in a few scenes of gothika and catwoman and honestly they weren’t that good, at least to me anyways.
oh yeah there was another movie i saw her in where she was a murderer, and the ending was a total letdown.
alwaysright101 said:
oh yeah there was another movie i saw her in where she was a murderer, and the ending was a total letdown.
That ending was garbage. You talking about “Perfect Stranger”? That film was trying to recreate the cycle theme.
abagond,dani,Gen,LaReyna,and Aiyo,
I agree with all of your comments regarding the use of Halle to represent “THE HEIGHT” of Black beauty.
It is OFFENSIVE to see the American media world OVERHYPE Halle’s beauty, NARROWLY DEFINE Black beauty to ONLY include BW who resemble Halle/Beyonce, and continue promoting the LIE that BW who DON’T look like Halle/Beyonce are “ugly”.
Halle Berry looks just like my Auntie Niecy, so while I think she’s pretty I’m not in awe of her beauty of anything. Part of what makes HB so relatable (relatively) is that she looks like someone you (could) know. By the time I knew who she was (I probably first learned of her sometime in the 90s when I stopped watching Disney movies exclusively, lol), the fact that she was biracial was widespread. I wonder how many people would guess she was “just” Black if they didn’t know her background?
Abagond,
You are correct sir. Halle Berry is indeed beautiful but she is certainly not the most beautiful woman that can be proffered by the black branch of the human family tree. I would choose Sanaa Lathan over her any day of the week. True Story!
You definitely nailed it when you said that the American standard of beauty is basically the white American standard of beauty.
@ Jasmin
I agree I think that is part of her appeal she is looks like a pretty woman that we may know she’s that so called “girl next door” (BTW I hate that term who are these people living next door to?)
but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.”
THANK YOU.
I have been saying this to myself every time i hear or see that lady on tv.
White people only like Halle because Halle is half white and she has a white mother.
They see her white mother’s face in her bone structure and features, THAT Is why she is considered beautitful by whites.
Because she looks like her white mother!
If halle was full blooded african, white people would be calling her ugly and calling her the typical white boy comments.
If you look at the main black actresses from the point of view of someone who likes how black women look, Halle Berry does not stand out. But if you look at them from the point of view of white beauty, she does. The powers that be in Hollywood are mainly white, so that is why they hold her up. It is certainly not based on her acting talent – Angela Bassett has her beat there by a long shot.
I think Gabriel Aubry would never be with Halle if she was not half-white with the bone structrue of her white mama.
White men normally think black women and our body parts are disgusting and they won’t touch us.
Because they think our brown skin means there is dirt on our body and they think the light pink skin of white women means it clean.
Halle is also celebrated by whites because she has light skin tone, therefore white people see her as being clean and “superior.”
Abagond,
but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty
Really? I mean, she truly looks like plenty 100% black women.
If she didn’t say her mother was YT nobody would know, she’s biracial.
she has a nose job and get lighter with the time (BTW).
But like you I did find her cute before being well known and she does have a gorgeous body.
nubiahbella Says:
Wed 25 Nov 2009 at 22:07:42
Abagond,
but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty
Really? I mean, she truly looks like plenty 100% black women.
If she didn’t say her mother was YT nobody would know, she’s biracial.
she has a nose job and get lighter with the time (BTW).
But like you I did find her cute before being well known and she does have a gorgeous body.”
Halle looks like her white mama with a tan.
She don’t look 100 percent black.
Her face is the bone structure of her white mama, that’s why whites like her.
They don’t like her because she looks black, they like her because she looks white to them, its all in her bone structure.
ErzulieRedEyes Says:
Halle is also celebrated by whites because she has light skin tone, therefore white people see her as being clean and “superior.”
Since when Halle is seen as LS, she has a medium brown skin
sometimes I wonnder where begins the light with black folks?
Rhianna (who by the way has kinda typical african features and is seen as beautiful by YT) is LS Halle not
Halle features are rather negroid than caucasian
When I saw her in “Boomerang”, before I knew about her mother, I thought she was just plain black.
nubiahbella Says:
Wed 25 Nov 2009 at 22:17:39
ErzulieRedEyes Says:
Halle is also celebrated by whites because she has light skin tone, therefore white people see her as being clean and “superior.”
Since when Halle is seen as LS, she has a medium brown skin
sometimes I wonnder where begins the light with black folks?
Rhianna (who by the way has kinda typical african features and is seen as beautiful by YT) is LS Halle not
Halle features are rather negroid than caucasian”
Nope whites see Halle’s white mama in her face and bone structure that’s why they like her so much.
Its about the white beauty in her face not her black beauty.
And Rihanna is liked by whites because she has a white girl feature: Hazel eyes.
And she has light skin.
Halle is very light, and whites only like her for her white structure.
Quite true, a lot of these women do nip and tuck their noses to look “whiter” I know Halle had a softer nose so did Toni Braxton, Tyra, Kimora, Beyonce(I suspect Kelly and Alicia Keyes as well) and yes even Britney Spears and Angelina Jolie cut up their noses. And could somebody please tell Rihanna that skin bleach isn’t going to be disconinued next week (Also I’ve heard a few White men say they like her eyes but can’t stand her nose) When I ask why, no one can answer, wonder why?
Who are you!? Get out of my head!Everything you said about Halle,yes!About Beyonce,yes!Their beautiful women but that’s it.Pretty faces.All those pictures had my tounge waggin.It’s like,you’re in my head.And where ARE all the Clair Huxtables?I have to watch the Cosby Show on DVD to get my fix.I love her.
Anyway thanks makeing the day.PEACE.
Hey Everyone:
What do you guys mean by “black African features”?
http://www.tadias.com/05/22/2009/ethiopian-born-sarah-nuru-is-germanys-next-top-model/
http://www.starpulse.com/Actresses/Iman/Pictures/
Do Ethiopians have “black African features”?
I think you guys are generalizing what constitutes Black beauty -the same as Whites, but from a different angle. I don’t believe there is any such thing as “black features” or “white features”. I have an Aunt who is lightskinned – the only one in a Black Jamaican family. She, like Halle could not pass as White.
As far as I am concerned, if you could pass as White, you are White. White people, not Blacks, make that determination, by the way. Halle has never been described as “half-White”. I’ve always heard her described as a Black woman with a White mother, which is how she describes herself.
Hi guys,
I think you’ll find that whites feel kinship with Halle because she makes them feel comfortable in their own collective skins.
My personal research conducted over 20 years (since aged 17) would suggest that dark-skinned, negroid featured Black women are the subject of a great deal of sub-conscious envy where whites, especially women, and lust, especially men, are concerned.
The process by which this occurs is called REACTION FORMATION…GOOGLE IT!
Anyway, the evidence thus far would indicate an underlying conspiracy to marginalise the allure of the dark-skinned Black woman, and deny it most publically by elevating the likes of Halle Berry as the acceptble face of ‘Black beauty’.
Nothing could be further from the truth! She is merely a front concealing the extent to which whites envy and secretly lust after unambiguous Black women.
All the evidence I possess (non of which is tainted by personal opinion) would indicate as much.
Menelik Charles
London England
ps I will be writing a book on the subject in the next two years.
Hey Everyone:
What do you guys mean by “black African features”?
i think the commenters mean west african features.
anongrl said:
What do you guys mean by “black African features”?
i think the commenters mean west african features.
Menelik replies:
I think they mean negroid features…which would COVER east, west, south and central Africa.
Yes?
menelik Charles
London England
I agree with what you have said. Halle and Beyonce are beautiful but not the most beautiful.
I always thought Halle looked black. She has the dark, almond shaped eyes, full lips, and full high cheekbones I see on alot of black women. Especially in the picture above I don’t see anything white in her features.
Halle Berry, like Nubiah, Jasmine and Dani pointed over looks VERY black. Maybe, because, um, well…SHE IS. LOL.
Like I’ve said several times before on this blog, the obession that Americans have with black/white offspring never fails to amaze me! And it’s not about racial heritage, I can tell you that. It’s about the concepts of “black” and “white” and where black children from an union between the two “racial extremes” lie in those ideas.
Halle is surely a very pretty lady. She has a great smile and as an ex-beauty queen, she possesses a naturally gracious ladylike poise. Add to that, she has a feline sex appeal that never comes across as raunchy or forced. Overall, I can see Halle’s appeal.
Despite all of that, she’s HARDLY the most beautiful amongst women of ANY race. Hell, outside of her physical, she’s not much of a catch either. Amongst the industry, she’s a known kook with more issues (and hangups) than Time, Life and People Weekly put together. Her repuation as a “door knob” (’cause everyone got a turn!) amongst black Hollywood actors is just as famous as her scattershot mental state. She’s a fruitcake, to putly it succintly!
hahaha mynameismyname is correct. People are obssessed with Black/White unions than any other interracial unions. It’s also funny how people are saying she looks like someone in their family. The funny thing is she does look largely more Black than White. I feel that way about Barack Obama. He looks like my uncle. Anyways, I do think that since Halle mentioned that she had a white mother, Hollywood was more willing to accept her as their own and made her play more non-marginalized Black woman roles. Before she mentioned she had a white mother, she was playing more stereotypcial Black woman roles. Not only that her persona is universal. She has a persona that is not stereotypical of a Black woman so that helps. Halle is pleasing to the eye and has a very classy poise, but I don’t think she is the most beautiful not even Beyonce and Beyonce does not have a classy poise to me at all. She sounds like she barely can speak like she has peanut butter stuck her throat. That is just unattractive to me, regardless of gender or race. Anyways, I do see the hype because she does have some appeal the way she walks and carry herself(even though I think her personality is boring) but looks and talent wise there are women who put her to shame.
^^
Right, Dani.
Halle has appeal for the reasons I described above. But still, there’s millions of black women the world over (some famous, most not) who have way more appeal than she does. Just how white plain janes like Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz (who I think is ugly) are hyped as “premier Hollywood beauties” despite the fact that they are nothing special in comparison to everyday women of ANY RACE, Halle is seen as the “premier black beauty” even when she clearly doesn’t come close to earning that title. Despite the fact that she does have SOME appeal. Hollywood likes to hype up the average. Hence, why us folks who “are in the know” shouldn’t put too much value in what they promote.
Yes! Beyonce is so inarticulate that it is not even funny! Why a 30-something-year-old woman who has boasted about attending private schools as a youngster speaks (and carries herself) like a 8th grade dropout is beyond me!
Matthew Knowles should have invested all that money he spent on his daughter’s wacky weaves and tacky outfits and brought her a diction coach and hell, a few English classes at a local Houston-area community college! LOL. The entertainment industry sure houses a bunch of dummies! This high class chickenhead and luny-ass Halle are two of them!
Her repuation as a “door knob” (’cause everyone got a turn!) amongst black Hollywood actors is just as famous as her scattershot mental state. She’s a fruitcake, to putly it succintly!
Spill Mynameismyname, spill! More gossip! LOL! I haven’t heard that comparison to a door knob in a donkey’s age! Are you sure you’re not one of those gossip writers? Just kidding. Is she still a door knob?
Gosh! You hit the nail on the head eveytime!
I agree 100%. She is beautiful but:
1.) Not representative of black women…
2.) Not exotic but commerical…
3.) A very safe form of black beauty…
I think Iman in her 40s is more beautiful than Halle in her 20s!
I’ve always felt this way yet never had it articulated so accurately.
Awesome job Abagond!
Lol wow I thought I was the only one who thinks Cameron Diaz and Jennifer Aniston are ugly.
Gen,
You are not the only one! Neither of those ladies are the prettiest sheep in the bunch.
Jessica,
Yeah, Aba articulated how I felt about Berry quite well. His posts often take the words out of my mouth.
Herneith,
Well, birds of a feather flock together so it was of no surprise to anyone in the industry that Halle’s marriages to David Justice and Eric Benet failed before they even started. Justice and Benet were/are both known “male-whores.” Let’s just say that Halle was their counterpart, on that level. LOL.
Like Julia Roberts, she had a habit of “bedding” her male co-stars (most of whom were black). Unlike Roberts, she also had the habit of obsessively trying to start a relationship with them and going “psycho” on them when they didn’t oblige. Ever wonder why she never worked with Spike Lee again?! True story!
Wesley Snipes, Larenz Tate and Omar Epps are just three examples of high-profile actors who have also “worked” (with) Berry before.
Ever wonder why she’s with a barely-famous white man now? Her reputation among the black men in the industry was so badly damaged that she had no choice, really. (Michael Ealy was her last victim). She’s “damaged goods” to the ‘brothers’ in H-Town.
So not only is she not as beautiful as the media pretends she is, she’s no catch personality-wise. I really hope that now that she’s a middle-aged mother of a toddler, she’ll get the mental help and emotional closure she really needs.
@ Gen
Nope. The world is full of “Fred Sanford’s Ugly White Women”
haha
But its the white media that pushes this myth that they are so beautiful and would have everyone and his mother believe that every white woman who ever lived and the ones walking the earth now are so much more beautiful/better looking than any woman of color (especially black women).
Mirrors don’t lie, but the white media does. Especially when it comes to the “White Women are the Epitome of Beauty Lie”
mynameismyname said :
Yes! Beyonce is so inarticulate that it is not even funny! Why a 30-something-year-old woman who has boasted about attending private schools as a youngster speaks (and carries herself) like a 8th grade dropout is beyond me!
Matthew Knowles should have invested all that money he spent on his daughter’s wacky weaves and tacky outfits and brought her a diction coach and hell, a few English classes at a local Houston-area community college! LOL. The entertainment industry sure houses a bunch of dummies! This high class chickenhead and luny-ass Halle are two of them!
You need to fall back because Beyonce stans spot a unfavorable post about Bey from a mile away LOL. I think this chick largely lacks speaking skills and people should not be an apologist for her illiteracy. Blaming her speaking skills on her shyness is not an excuse. Michael and Janet Jackson are very shy individuals but they speak well. People make fun of Fantasia but at least she admits her struggle with reading. While, Beyonce fronts and hype up the fact she attended private school which made matters worst. Either her school was terrible at teaching those students or Beyonce is not too bright. I noticed that they don’t hype her doing well in school or in home schooling, so I think Matthew just rather not hype that up lol because he know she slow. It makes me sick to my stomach seeing her speak and make a fool of herself on television. She is been in the game for 12 years and still sounds like a kid. A near thirty something woman should not be talking like that.
As far as Halle you need to spill the tea because people have been making fun of this chick for being crazy for a long time. I still haven’t got an explanation.
I do agree that Jennifer Aniston and Cameron Diaz are not attractive right along with Gwenyth Paltrow, Hillary Swank, and Maggie Gyllenhall. I saw her in Dark Knight and wanted to puke. It amazes me that she still gets to play the love interest and the woman that two men are falling for and she lacking in the looks department looking so damn old. While Black actresses who put her to shame can’t even get to play a love interest or any role in big budget Hollywood film.
oh okay I read your post mynameismyname. Wow so she did indeed sleep with out alot of her make co-stars. It’s one thing to be quite loose, but its another thing to be labled crazy. Did she stalk them after her encounters with them? I know that she was in a bad relationship with one of the guys she was with who knocked her ear drum out. Do you think her emotional needs are quite inbalanced because of her previous relationships and because of a lack of a father figure? I can see how that can mess someone up though.
@Dani,
you’re such a cute looking sista…really, you don’t need to be bitching about women the way you’re presently doing.
Stay cute, sista friend!
Menelik Charles
London England
Dani,
Beyonce isn’t very bright, at all. I feel that this plays a big part in why the white media feels so comfortable boosting her up. If she were intelligent and spoke articulately, she’d threaten them (like Lauryn did).
As far as Ms. Berry:
Oh, D, people aren’t just clowning this lady when they call her crazy. They’re stating the truth. Her neurotic behavior on the set of some of her (decidely crappy) films is well known. The faint spells; the odd phobias; the bumping into equipment which is right in her view. The list goes on.
Yes, she would continually try to persue a serious relationship with these actors who thought of their acquaintance with her as a mere fling. Obsessively so, I must add. Stalking was merely one compontent of that.
The “broken ear drum” story which she seems to trots out to the press for sympathy actually involves Spike Lee directly, although Spike isn’t the one responsible for the alleged damage to her ear.
Again, this woman truly, truly has some deeply rooted issues. I don’t how much her absentee father (who she’s described as abusive and alcohol-dependent) plays into them. Really, Halle’s trajectory sadly recalls a modern-day “tragic mulatto” tale.
@ menelik Charles
thank you for the compliment. I might sound like I’m bitching about some of these women but I’m not. Just criticizing how hollywood marginailizes women of color and choosing very few women of color to be a representative of their entire race or ethnicity. I don’t think that’s fair at all to us. Don’t worry I’m not like this all the time lol
@ mynameismyname
So you saying socially awkward? I can tell sometimes in her interviews. She seems nice but very strange. Maybe the lack of a positive father figure in her life that has caused her to be obsessive with the men in her relationship you know needing that closure. I mean its understandable, however, I hope she is doing fine now and finding herself. Maybe she came around when she had her baby. For some people it does that. When a baby comes around they start acting right lol. I didn’t want to come out and say it, but yeah when she talked about her experience growing up, her childhood does sound like the stereotypical tragic mullato story, which worked in her favor to capture the mainstream attention. I like Halle actually. Just do not think that she is representative as a standard for Black beauty.
I remember years ago….maybe 1992 in Ebony when I saw in the table of contents the Most Beautiful Black Woman voted by Black Americans. So when I turned to the page and saw Halle, I thought aloud, Her!!! My mom heard me and said, “That’s what I said.” At that time, I didn’t know who she was and had not seen her in anything. I was about 12 at the time. Now granted the woman is pretty, very pretty and can look quite beautiful at times, but to be labeled the most beautiful black woman confounded me even at the tender age of 12.
I think that the media sees Halle’s beauty as safe because it’s not “too black” to disrupt the eurocentric standard of beauty and it’s not “too white”. It’s just safe……Now it seems that she gets called the most beautiful out of habit.
@mynameismyname:
You mean she did her best work on her ‘back’? The only movie I’ve ever seen her in was the Spike Lee one where she played a drug addict. If there were any others, I can’t remember them.
@Menelik:
It’s not bitching, it’s gossip!
I truly believe that Halle Berry being the epitome of beauty was soley based on her short hair cut in the beginning of her career. Up to that point, there was no one who was pretty and feminine to carry such a short style. That style really set her apart from the rest. If she would have had long hair when she debuted, she would have been just another pretty actress. That cut was the best career decision she’s ever made.
From that, she got “the most beautiful woman in the world” label and it has stuck. That along with how she carried herself.
Mynameismyname, I’d always heard that she was unstable, but I wasn’t sure if it was true.
One thing that bothers me about her is that she always plays the victim. There are women who go through far more than her without all of the money, fame and adoration.
Also, I hate to say this, but I was very disappointed when she one the Oscar. I think it was undeserved and felt that Angela was far more deserving. But Halle has an excellent manager to promote her.
beautiful black woman are young cicecly tyson,sanaa lathan,angela bassett,solange knowles,jurnee smollett,naturi naughton ,karyn white,amber efe,fatou ndiaye,tonto dike,eva pigford,jody watley,chilli of tlc, nse ikpe etim,lopez sisters of dynasty,nona gaye,anika noni rose,keke palmer.
Great list!
You are right!Robert Uyi. Halley berry is indeed beautiful but certainly not among the most beautiful black women.Personally i think phyllica Ra shad(Claire huxtible) and Iman should make this list.
Halle may not be number one on your list.She is number one on mine.She is always giving to charity and always have a helping hand.Thats a blessing.Thats what makes her beautiful.Halle keep up the good work. (added by Mobile using Mippin)
@ mynameismyname
I’m sorry but what you are spouting here is some of the most obnoxious, ridiculous, ‘has nothing to do with the topic’ crap I have ever heard.
So the ‘brothers’ say she is a door knob everyone had a turn.. really? and you have the temerity to repeat it like it’s gospel.
what does that make them? hmmm.. the ones who seem to have no problem being with the ‘door knob’ until she leaves them and then it’s all good.
So these brothers go around talking about who they do? what are they? High school kids excited about having sex with a woman?.
– Hands up any girl here who has heard on the grapevine that some dude ‘allegedly slept with you or ‘popped your cherry’?
– Hands up or please start reeling out names of dudes who say they have had you seven ways from sundown and even describe to their boys how you allegedly act in bed. How you scream?. the things you say.. describe you as a wild child or a hoochie who every one has had… and at the time you were still a freaking virgin!
How many black men have described all of us black women as whores, too loud, bat shit crazy!, not quite there, dumb e.t.c.? e.t.c.
Seriously, how many times do we have to drill it into our heads that people say the darnest things when they can’t get their way, own or possess you. The things people say about that woman.. they will turn around and say it about you.
I wonder mynameismyname were you right there with them when they were with her?.
I mean halle is 40+ years old and you’ve mentioned what 5/6 dudes 2 of which she married?.
How did we go from, Halle Berry is not the epitome of black beauty to .. ohh she’s never made a good movie bar one (as if she is in charge of writing the scripts.. the woman is trying to work and earn money. you take whatever project comes your way until you can afford not to!)
Do any of you guys give your real life friends grief because the companies they work for produce craptastic products? do you rail against them and castigate them?.
So she’s clumsy?. so what? I’m clumsy too. I bump into things, trip over my feet, so what?
The woman is diabetic. Is it possible that she could have been having fainting spells because she was low on insulin or is that too simple an explanation?.
So what if she is not a genius? Are you?. She’s not a genius but she still managed to manoeuvre her way into a difficult industry and carve a little thing out of it.
There are countless beauty queens who are doing playboy, penthouse, spreading their legs for money and you have the nerve no the audacity to critique her for what she does in private.
You know what.. this is utterly, utterly ridiculous.
you know I have to laugh…
One of those brothers made her deaf in one ear! In the real world that alone affects balance (but I guess that’s another too simplistic explanation)
The minute halle berry married that white dude she became ‘trash’ in the eyes of soo many ‘brothers’.
now she’s crazy, mentally unstable, strange, a hoochie, a ‘door knob’ wow. just wow!
Yet not 1 sex tape circulating.
But Kim Kardasian can put her things out blatantly for the camera and the ‘brothers’ come running trying to wife her.
We’ve gone from halle berry is not the most beautiful black woman to Halle has issues with men due to her lack of a ‘father figure’. How is this evident?.
She had an actual relationship with Wesley ‘black women are not subservient enough/Mr erectile dysfunction’ Snipes (see we all can play that game)
and please Wesley, Omar Epps, Michael Ealy?
I mean really?.
So what? She beds her co stars.. aren’t theyt bedding her too. Or is it some kinda hypnotic thing where she forces them, damn near beats them into going to bed with her.
The ‘brothers in H-town’ lol
The brothers never had a damn chance. We are all used to the ’stories’ the brothers fling around when they try and can’t get it.
i seriously can not believe the bollocks this thread has degenerated into
oh and watch out now..
Cos beyonce is a dummy!. Poor diction, tacky stage outfits, talks like an 8th grader.. yet had the good sense to get decent management, fantastic promotions deals, hook up with a mega selling ‘reformed’ about it fellow star and have one of the best work ethics out there.
You know we reel off these incredibly insulting, patronising, damn near disgusting bile about people who have achieved excellence in their chosen industry and industry which is highly competitive and one which has no guarentees.
yet, what in blue blazes are we doing in our own industries.
Does it make you feel better calling beyonce dumb?. hmmm. Does it?. You know this because you’ve seen her SAT test scores right?. you’ve been in her shoes where she realises she is a business and if her business model determines that she has to speak in a monotone, permanently excited voice then that is what she is going to do to ensure her business stays being a business.
Really… she’s dumb?. who are you to say so.
Show us what you’ve got? what you’ve made of yourself?
And you women co-signing this bs… damn… just damn.
@ Soul
I knid of agree that this dicussion has taken a different turn of a gossipy type of thing
@Aiyo…
gossipy?
It has taken a turn for salacious, vindictive, cruel, unfounded, defamatory, pseudo psychological woman bashing, school boy rumour mongering, jezebel finger pointing, insulting and complete and utter vicious tripe about 2 woman who haven’t claimed to be anything other than average people trying to make a go of beign creative in a very demanding industry.
It’s utterly, utterly bizarre. We have people who have never been close to them judging them from ‘heresay’, ‘rumour’ e.t.c.
And nobody is even stopping to say hold on…
hold on…
what’s the problem if this grown woman isn’t exactly virginal?.
How many people try to make their careers lying on their backs and how many are successful.
These black woman are being vilified because what? they aren’t genuises, they sound ’simple’, they like to have sex?, they are have idiosyncracies?, one suffers from fainting spells?.
I mean, really! Halle Berry got villified and called weird and one of the reasons is because she has fainting spells!? and she’s clumsy? damn.
I’m just like… well… like.. damn..
Beyonce is not dumb. To grow herself into the brand she is today takes alot of planning and finesse.
I think it is out of line to bring up Halle’s romantic past. Everyone has flaws and makes mistakes.
You guys took the whole thing too far. SMH.
Abagond how could you forget about Kenya Moore? I think she is Wayyyyy more attractive than Halle Berry.
Soul,
If certain comments bother you, just refrain from reading them. I see that my commentary on Berry’s off-stage behavior (which Aba gave me permission to tell, as long as they are on topic) really got to you. Hmm….
The reason why I spilled the wine on Halle and told the truth about Beyonce is because like Aba, I’m tired of them being put on a pedestal above so many better looking, more talented and more mentally stable black women.
I want people to see them for what they really are.
Neither Halle or Beyonce are role models for black women, in terms of beauty or character. That was the point of me “airing them out”. Hope it makes sense now.
Dani,
Yes, I hope the arrival of Berry’s daughter really helps her in terms of finding some emotional clousure. I truly do. I wish her no ill. I never had any interest in her, physically or career-wise, so I did not tell what I told about her with malicious intent.
Nubian Queen,
If this was the movie “Purple Rain”, Morris Day would throw Halle in the garbage dump like he did that whiny singer if he saw Kenya Moore walking down the street! (Remember that scene?). Halle couldn’t see Kenya with glasses on!
SnowPea,
Beyonce is as dumb as a door knob. Just be real about it. You can be a fan of her “music” and still admit that. It doesn’t make her a bad person. It’s just that, she won’t be admitted into MENSA anytime soon.
I find it interesting how people will ridicule Fantasia for how she speaks but let Beyonce’s even-worse diction slide.
At least, Fantasia went and did something with herself by getting a GED and trying to better her speech and vocabulary.
I also find it interesting how Halle’s known mental instability and loose ways with men gets excused, yet you guys are quick to flame Naomi Campbell’s wildly similar behavior. Is it because Naomi’s antics went public?
Or is it a matter of…racial appearance?
one thing you can say about Halle Berry is that she brings the claws out in women. i thought this was about her beauty not her character.
where is the proof to prove these rumors? unfortunately there will always be women who are quick to join the Halle Berry hate.
by the way the level of venom directed towards this woman is very telling.
@mynameismyname…
oh please. spilled the wine???.
That she is a grown woman and has had sex with a few men who had no problem having sex with her and but now she’s a ‘doorknob’
puhlease. that is one of the most bizarre and sexist stances ever
Where you there?. Where you in the room? where you even in the building?
So she is put on a pedestal by some people and you decided to rip her to shreds by trying to make her out to be some insane, crazy, jezebel beyotch?.
How does that even begin to make sense.
As a woman, I am offended by that. As a black woman I am mortally offended by that.
Do you think that our self esteem is soo fragile that you need to rip one of us to shreds in order to make us feel better. You are severely mistaken.
I’ll ask again, why were these men sleeping with her if they devalued her soo much. they must not have much value for themselves.
And again…
If beyonce is soo dumb, prove how smart you are in your chosen field?. How are you excelling?. Prove it?.
So what these women are put on a pedestal. yep I don’t like the pedestal, they are not my most beautiful peeps but to use salacious gossip which you have absolutely no way of knowing for sure and mindless gossip at that… gossip that mnakes no sense when you view where it is coming from.. is beyond the pale and you are better than that.
these women don’t deserve to be castigated by you, because some people chose to put them on pedestals.
how can you even begin to justify the fact that you think having fainting spells or being clumsy makes her unstable?
Puhlease. Today it’s beyonce & halle and what about tomorrow when white men start putting Alec Wek on a pedestal or sister soldjah… would you begin to debase them by unfounded BS as well.
Check yourself mate.
This is thoroughly unneccessary
@just to say…
firstly.. I’m a woman and I am defending her character and I am not the only one and I think mynameismyname is a dude as far as I can tell… so please.. let’s erm not do the ‘women hate other women stuff and are the first to tear them down business’
who teh heck is saying anything about Naomi Campbell’s behaviour? She is a supermodel, she meets lots of people.. she might sleep with a few or many.. so bloody what?
she’s an adult. The men who are sleeping with her are not exactly chaste are they?
you know the more you say the more you keep digging yourself into a hole. If you think Halle Berry has some mental instability then how could you conciously critisize her and for what?. cos she has sex?.
And what is this ‘known’ mental instability. please state it because I do not know it.
And if you and your cohorts know it, then why are they taking advantage of her and sexing her? and then turning around and saying she’s a doorknob.
Makes absolutely no sense!.
Are the ‘H-town’ brothers soo desperate, soo depraved, soo eager that they will sleep with a so called ‘mentally unstable woman’ and then have the nerve to start insulting her. what kind of foolishness is that. Makes no sense.
No damn sense
What because we black women are blind?
because what?. we are incapable of choosing or deciding who we want to use as a role model for a particular aspect of our lives?
or what.. who told you that we see her as a role model?
i suppose Wesley snipes is a role model?. or Omar epps or michael ealy?
These women are both entertainers who have excelled in their chosen fields.
Both Beyonce and Halle Berry are beautiful to me. Just as Alec Wek, Oprah Winfrey, Angela Bassett are beautiful.
You took a criticism of the pedestal which they are placed on and then made completely unrelated salacious tripe and brought in their ‘characters from your point of view’ in order to debase them and make them seem inferior.
As a woman that makes me look at you in disgust. You think debasing one woman to elevate another is a good way. Ic all foul and I’ll call foul any damn time. And if we were talking about the way white men debase their own women in order to ’speak to black women’ you’d be calling foul.
So please spare me.
It’s not right when dark skinned women are debased in favour of light skinned women and it is most certainly NOT right when light skinned women are debased in favour of dark skinned women.
You bringign their character in to play in order to do so, is beyond ridiculous and so off the mark, there is just not exit point.
And you are still justifying it. It’s ridiculous! stop doing it.
You did not have sex with halle berry. you were not there and I don’t believe you. why?.
Because everyday in high school we hear the same thing.. everyday we hear boys bragging about how they did this to some girl and many of them are outright lying.
You mention 6 men that this woman has slept with. 2 she married.. she’s 40+.
How many women has wesley slept with?
How many has omar epps?
What about Michael Ealy?
What?. they aren’t doorknobs? Can you even prove they slept with her?
This beyond ridiculous
I want people to see them for what they really are.
Neither Halle or Beyonce are role models for black women, in terms of beauty or character. That was the point of me “airing them out”. Hope it makes sense now.
soul,
I agree with you that we shouldn’t be resorting to unsubstantiated gossip and sexist bashing in our opinions regarding Halle’s overhyped beauty.
I also share your disgust with anyone who wants to JUSTIFY the use of typical (degrading/disrespectful)ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES (eg. All BW are dumb worthless sluts) to make a point about Halle or any other BW.
I blame Hollywood’s historic ANTI-BW RACISM for the way they IGNORE MANY talented, beautiful BW and render them virtually INVISIBLE while FORCING a PHONY, NARROW image of “black beauty” (eg. Halle, Beyonce) down EVERYONE’S throat.
I would like to see more successful Black actresses establish production companies (like Tatyana Ali-webseries producer, Jada Pinkett Smith-cable series producer, etc.) where they produce PRO-BW media that projects an ACCURATE, POSITIVE, UPLIFTING image of BW.
I have heard many people who have the same feelings as you about Halle Berry, but I somewhat disagree. I do think that Halle is considered so beautiful because people know that she is half white but I do not think it is because she looks white. Halle Berry looks nothing like a white woman to me. Her features are very similar to Sanaa’s and Gabrielle’s. So when people say she looks white it confuses me. Sade and Lisa Bonet’s have more Euro features than Halle. Her appeal also has to do with her style. She has a killer body and her clothes look and fit her so well.
@laroma..
And lest we forget these are from the mouths of black men!.
You know I just re-read many of the comments here and my nameismyname says Halle Berry married a white man because no black man would have her…
erm screeech! halt!
Wow, when did the script flip?. Is this what black men are saying now, that white men who we have endlessly debated on how they view us..are picking the left overs that brothers don’t want?.
and if that’s the case, then where’s the beef?.
I also share your disgust with anyone who wants to JUSTIFY the use of typical (degrading/disrespectful)ANTI-BW STEREOTYPES (eg. All BW are dumb worthless sluts) to make a point about Halle or any other BW.
Let’s stick to the subject folks. This thread is about Halle’s beauty. What she has done in her personal, romantic life has no place here.
I find it interesting that someone said that her hair cut was what helped her land the title of most beautiful. I think you may have a point because the hair cut was what people talked about when she came out and also the fact that she was still pretty and feminine with such a cut made her stand out even more.
Funny how no one jumped up to defend Jennifer Aniston when someone said she was unattractive. (I actually like Jen–don’t think she’s the best looking girl ever, but she seems nice.)
The problem with getting on the high horse of “How dare you say X about so-and-so?” you open yourself up to criticism about every comment you ever make about anything in life. If people can’t give their opinions, not only blogging, but also conversation, must cease to exist. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with disagreeing with someone, but chastising them for saying what they said because “It’s mean!” is basically derailment because that argument just runs in circles every time. Everybody has something negative to say about someone/something else. It’s hypocritical to say it’s “truth” when I do it, but “bashing” when others do. Plus, it reeks of self-righteousness.
That being said, I agree, Islandgirl, that the short cut made Halle. I think she looks way better with that than with long hair (I always get a poodle vibe from her when she has that ringlet style). However, I don’t understand how some people claim to build their self-esteem off of media images. If someone told me she’d never felt beautiful because Halle Berry (or Beyonce, etc.) was the black beauty standard, I’d probably look at her funny and wonder, “What did your parents teach you?” I think media can (and does) influence us, but the critical messages are the ones you get at home.
@ soul
I’m sorry if my comments made you upset. However, I still stand by my opinion that beyonce sounds slow in her interviews. I didn’t take that away from her success at all. I’m actually quite proud of her she came a long from being the little girl in DC. However, with Halle I know mynameismyname gave his opinion on Halle being “crazy” However, I still think she is more socially awkward than crazy but I never said I disliked her or hated her.
Halle did not marry Gabriel. They are just dating and raising their daughter.
@shani…
you mean like the jennifer aniston haircut kinda made her a household name?
It’s possible. something that simple can be thrust people into the limelight and make them the instant ‘go to person’ it can also be there undoing.
Once people got bored of the Jennifer Aniston haircut they kinda moved on to something else.. and unfortunately by that time she was typecast as a ‘goody 2 shoes, quirky comedy playing girl’.
Yeah the ‘Halle Berry’ cut did have some effect in pushing her into the limelight.
I find it interesting that someone said that her hair cut was what helped her land the title of most beautiful. I think you may have a point because the hair cut was what people talked about when she came out and also the fact that she was still pretty and feminine with such a cut made her stand out even more.
I liked Halle better with her short hair cut than the long hair. I think her neckline is very nice and it shows it off better. Not to say she doesn’t like good with long hair, it justs with short hair it shows off her face more.
@jasmin..
if that comment was addressed to me, then my response is this..
saying someone is crazy. a door knob has nothing to do with this pedetal thing, it is an effort to debase another black woman.. and it’s unproven.
If you’d like to point how I’m being self righteous.. feel free.
But I have stated time and time again here that any man who debases another woman in order to curry favour with you should be avoided like the plague.
re: Jennifer Aniston, I’ll put my hand up now and say.. a) I didn’t notice it. and b)I always see people rush to defend white women. the post was about ‘ halle berry not being the most beautiful black woman in the world’ I focused primarily on that.
If your comment was not intended for me, then please ignore my response.
Halle has held the title for almost two decades. I think that says alot. Usually with white actresses, they choose someone different every few years. For black actresses it has been Halle since she came out in 1991. What do you all think about that? Do you think that there has been no black actress to rival her beauty, style, etc. She’s very tenacious. She makes sure every year that she is still in the game.
One thing you can say about halle and no one can refute this is that she plays non-stereotypical Black women roles. And has for a very long time. Not too many Black women have gone that far too in playing non-marginalized roles. You have to give her credit for that.
@dani..
I’m not from the US, most southern drawls sound slow to me..
But I’ll say this, you know back in the day.. Janet Jackson was considered slow because she used to take a pause when asked a question, consider it and then respond in a little girls voice.
I saw it as part of the ‘None threatening black woman package that many black women have to effect in order to have cross over success).
Just to clarify.. I am not upset.. I’m kinda just a lil bit bemused.. like ‘oh word’?.
For real there are some black women co-signing this ish?.
P.s.
I have no problem with anyone disliking Halle or Beyonce. I don’t know them personally and I’m not related to them.
My objection was declaring them to be jezebels, ‘door knobs’ making careers on backs branding a black woman because of ‘hearssay’ about sexual partners. which has nothing to do with anything.
Declaring someone mentally unstable, yet not seeing the irony in the fact that these grown dudes have no problem sleeping with an ‘alleged mentally unstable person’.
Declaring someone fainting as a personal flaw.
Declaring clumsiness to be a sign of being mentally unstable
and then claiming you are doing so, to remove the shine and for the benefit of other black women.
Coem on.. even you have to say that is out of order
Soul,
Yes that’s what I meant. And furthermore, there was no prominent black actress at the time besides Whoopi. But Halle had the beauty since many don’t consider Whoopi to be beautiful, and therefore Halle came in at the right time. She was young, a breath of fresh air, etc. And she had all the qualities and the package of being labeled the most beautiful.
@ soul
It’s cool you have the right to your opinion and I’m not disagreeing with you at all. I think you felt that it was more than an attack on Halle and it seemed like an attack on the same ol attacks that Black women get thrown at all the time.
@shani…
And hadn’t everyone been recovering from severe pageboy type cuts at the time (or was that after)
Halle’s cut was light and fluffy, tomboyish yet girlie.. It was also a hair cut that both white and black women could effect. I do tend to agree with you.. it catapulted her and she took advantage of that (who wouldn’t)
As important as it is that BW receive positive reinforcement for their self image from their families, it’s also important for EVERYONE ELSE to see ACCURATE, POSITIVE, UPLIFTING images of BW in American media (instead of ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES).
@dani
yep I saw it as an attack that gets thrown at black women all the time.. that’s why I was surprised. And one specifically being used this time because it’s an easy target.
The villifying was horrific. I still can’t believe that anyone would declare fainting spells as ‘crazy’ or clumsiness as evidence of craziness. It’s beyond petty
Shani Says:
Halle has held the title for almost two decades. I think that says alot. Usually with white actresses, they choose someone different every few years. For black actresses it has been Halle since she came out in 1991.
laromana says,
The fact that ONLY HALLE has been “given” the title for almost two decades is EXACTLY the problem. Hollywood REFUSES to acknowledge the DIVERSITY of Black beauty in the same way it does with White beauty and there’s a LOT WRONG with that mindset. There are OBVIOUSLY MANY OTHER BW that are as beautiful/more beautiful than Halle and they DESERVE to be recognized.
dani says,
Not too many Black women have gone that far too in playing non-marginalized roles. You have to give her credit for that.
laromana says,
This is another MAJOR PROBLEM with the RACIST/ANTI-BW way Hollywood treats Black actresses. By singling out Halle to play MOST of the non-marginalized roles, OTHER MORE TALENTED Black actresses aren’t given the opportunity to play these roles and gain the potential success that comes from the increased exposure.
White actresses, on the other hand, have a greater chance of getting more roles (and achieving success) because they aren’t LIMITED to a few STEREOTYPICAL roles like MOST Black actresses are.
You are absolutely right. It’s as if Hollywood is afraid to acknowledge that beauty is also darker than a brown paper bag. The fact that they don’t acknowledge it speaks volumes that they are afraid of black women being seen as the standard of beauty. Shame. Shame. Shame.
Also realize, nothing stays the same forever. I truly believe that a darker woman will come along soon and steal the spotlight. I just have that gut feeling……
You also have to realize that many of the roles Halle gets are because she begs for them. So its not like they were handing her roles. She has even mentioned in interviews how she “harassed” producers and directors to give her the roles, etc. Monsters Ball, and Things We Lost in the Fire and a few others. The reason why she got the role in Monsters Ball was because Angela B turned it down. When it comes to talent Angela is the business, and if Angela said yeah, Halle would not have even gotten an interview.
One thing you have to give her credit for is that she is proactive and fights for roles. You don’t really hear about other black actresses doing that, not that they don’t. Maybe they do and just don’t vocalize it as much as Halle does.
Soul,
I co-sign your comments 54 and 63,
you took the words out of my mouth.
I do agree the the short hair made Halle even if she wasn’t the first black woman to have this haircut.
the same goes with Rihanna
Nubiabellah,
You’re right. Also I think the short cut helped in that not many women can pull it off, but she can.
@Laromona
co-sign! I do agree that the it’s unfair that Black actresses do not get the same opportunuty to play non-marginalized roles. We have to conform to Black women stereotypes *rollsyes* I mean dang a sista can play a love interest role too!
@ shani
I didn’t know that Halle had to be extra proactive in begging for roles. It’s a shame that she does even with an Oscar. Why they gotta do a sista like that! However, I want to see Jurnee Smollet and Kimberly Elise break onto the scene because these women can act! lol You are so right about the short hair do. Not veyr many women can play the look off. Including me lol. I think it shows off her face more with the short hair do.
@ soul
It’s all good and you are correct in the hypocrisy of the actions between Black women and White women. Yes there are Black women who will co-sign some foolishness like Chris Brown hitting on Rihanna. Let’s not even go there lol
Tyra Ebanks over Halle Berry don’t make me laugh. Halle beauty is not only her looks but her inner being. She glows with it and this is the reasons persons will put her up in the ranking.
i can tell halle had a nose job
92 comments! I wonder if Halle Berry has been tipped off to this post…
Why would you say that LaSmartOne?
Soul,
If I was to address something specifically to you, I would say so (like I just did).
I don’t think a criticism of Halle is a criticism of all Black women. Doesn’t that go against the “Black women/people are individuals?” argument? I don’t think what people say about HB has anything to do with me, and she’s just as open to criticism as the next person, Black or White.
This hasn’t happened in the comments (to my knowledge), but I’m surprised no one’s popped up with a “How dare you say HB isn’t pretty?” comment. I think topics like these often turn into “If you don’t think so-and-so is beautiful then you must be racist against Black women” silliness. Every critique on someone Black isn’t representative of some larger anti-Black conspiracy. Everyone has detractors; it happens. I think getting up in arms about every negative comments makes people look, dare I say it, whiny, and misses the point of actual systemic anti-Black bias.
Hmm this thread took a strange turn for a minute there lol. My biggest gripe is not wanting children to use the media’s messages as a guide to life but really, apart from momentary curiosity, why the hell do we as adults give two sh*ts if Halle has that title? The entertainment industry isn’t about to open the flood gates and show a vast range of black female faces and we already know that so screw the media, enlighten the young’ns.
I already gave an adequate explanation of my point of spilling the wine on the celebrity subject of this post.
Since a certain poster took my re-telling of Berry’s off-stage antics personal for some strange reason, I’m going to drop it.
Some people are very sensitive to the truth. Especially when you reveal the truth (everything I said was fact and it was not told with malicious intent since I could give three damns about Berry or any other actor or actress) about a celebrity idol. Kobe Bryant and Michael Jackson’s accusers got death threats by the ton from the fans of both men!
Like Gen pointed out, the media is all illusion! STOP TAKING IT SO SERIOUSLY! Halle Berry (or anyone else) means nothing and is no represenation of any “beauty standard” outside of what some media publications and productions decided.
If one is insecure or dumb enough to use someone as a “standard” of any kind, that is their own misfortune.
Thank you so much Jasmin, for “getting it.”
I said that I was going to “drop it” about Berry (and I have) but I will say this to a certain poster:
Trust me, there’s a WHOLE LOT more insider info I could have revealed about Berry. I only told the “fluffy” stuff.
If you’ve read correctly, I SAID that I was giving an abbreviated list of the many male co-stars she “acted” with. And there’s way more bizarre episodes involving her on film sets. And much more.
And did you not read when I complimented Berry on her exterior, saying that I can the appeal she has with a segment of people?
But all of that is beside the point.
At the end of the day, Berry is no epitome of any type of beauty. Neither is anyone else.
Damn, all these comments over this hack of an actress?
If y’all took all of this interest you have in her and actually went to the theatre to see one of her movies, she could finally have a hit film! LOL.
You’re right about that. LOL You have the freedom of speech. Say what you want.
Abagond, when you mention that Halle lacks a thick figure, well she is not stick thin either. She looks healthy and has a curvy body, especially after giving birth.
You mention that she doesn’t have beautiful eyes. I think she does; they are large doe-like, but what she doesn’t have is that almond, upturned, sexy, cat eye that many black women have particularly in the pics that you have of Angela Basset, Tyra Banks, and Gabrielle Union. I think this is why Halle has a commercial look. Maybe this is why you don’t think her eyes are beautiful? I think they are….just a different type of beautiful.
Her lips are thin in my opinion, but they sit perfectly on her face meaning they do not add to her beauty nor do they take away from her beauty.
Gosh, I need to stop. I feel a scientist…..LOL Anyway at the end of the day Halle B is still a pretty lady.
^^^
I don’t think Aba or anyone else was saying that Berry isn’t pretty. Of course, she is.
He and many others are just pointing out while she is certainly attractive, she is hardly “the most beautiful” or a “measuring stick” of black beauty.
I added that Berry has many deeply rooted issues and has a history of promocious and questionably sane behavior, which means that not only are her looks NOT all that they are cracked out to be: Her character isn’t either.
It’s no deeper than that.
I think Halle has a thin figure but it is very curvaceous to me. She has a nice bone structure in her face. However, do I think she is the epitome of Black beauty? Absolutely not because Black women have a diverse beauty that is just unbelieavable. I resent people who put one kind of Black beauty and write it off as a standard that Black women should live up too. Forget that! I’m done with that crap.
the way some speak of Halle you would think she is taking food from their mouths. what is it that gets people(not only women) so riled up?
she could have played the “tragic mulatto”, i’m sure she had the option, she chose not to.
is it that she will never be seen as Black enough? is it because she gets more praise then she deserves? that’s the nature of hollywood that’s not exclusive to Halle. is it her fault that MSM has annoited her “the”beauty. it seems the criticism should be in the direction of the media not Halle Berry.
on another note what makes Halle so beautiful is her facial symmetry, people with a high ratio are typically seen as more beautiful. Angela Bassett and Yasmin Warsame share the same high ratio.
@jasmin…
thanks for the clarification.
However it still seems you are misunderstanding where I am coming from.
This was a thread about why Halle berry is the most beautiful black woman in the world.
I agree completely, how can she be? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and is open to so many interpretations and issues e.t.c.
My objection is to using her ‘alleged’ sexual history 9which can only be obtained by hearsay’, call her a ‘doorknob’, calling her crazy, insane, kooky, no quite there.. in order to villify her the person and not the pedestal.
These are the same reasons and excuses most people give when they describe other black women.
You know fainting spells in white women are seen as delicate, in black women it makes her crazy!
Even i she has sex with 1000 men.. aren’t these men in turn having sex with her?.
When people can’t prove a point sufficiently, they always seem to attack the character.
The personal attack were and are unneccessary, gossipy, silly and petty. unless anyone was present in the bed room it is all rumour.
and quite frankly irrelevant.
Halle Berry is simply not the most beautiful black woman in the world for a host of reasons. Her fainting spells, alleged sexual conduct etc have nothing to do with it.
@just to say..
exactly?.
The MSM is making her into something she is not.. instead off railing against that, there are people railing against the woman.
Ad may add that Gabriel Union, sanaa Lathan & Kenya more have that exact same symmetry of which you speak.
But don’t worry, in a few years when Hollywood starts touting angela bassett as the most beautiful 50+ year old black actress.
i’m sure there’d be some ‘brothers’ calling her crazy ! a doorknob!, too muscular, manly, every H-Town brother will claim to have had a turn and basically thats why she had to adopt and couldn;t conceive .. and you know that she couldn’t marry anyone else but courtney B vance because blah blah blah…
oh and guess what, they’d claim they are saying this all in the aid of other black women, because they are tired of white MSM elevating Angela over other black women.
And we black women who say gosh why are you doing that are ‘taking it personally’, ’slaves to the MSM’ ‘YOU ARE TAKING IT TOO SERIOUSLY!’. I’m only doing it for you black woman…. for you!
lol
I laugh tire o!
^^^
Soul,
With all due respect, you have issues. (But who doesn’t?).
I have no clue why you took so much offense to what I revealed about Halle. I really don’t. Perhaps, you have a similar history as her and it hit a sensitive area with you?
Berry’s looks, talent and mental stability aren’t all there. That’s not to be denied.
End of story. Done.
I’m done with this conversation with you.
LOL. This is getting heated.
@mynameismyname…
Of course!
@all… didn’t I say it above, if they can say it about one person, they will say it about you.
You don’t seem to get it?.
This has nothing to do with Halle’s personal issues. It’s about her beauty.
Why don’t you tell us all why fainting makes her crazy?
why don’t you tell us all how being clumsy makes one mentally unstable?.
Again if she is known as being mentally unstable why are you not castigating the men who are sleeping with her.
Notice how I am addressing your points. Notice how whenever I have had to say something to you I’ve addressed you.
Of course, this can’t possibly have to do with the fact that you brought up irrelevant personal unprovable (take your word for it) details about someone who hasn’t done anything to you…
It must be because I have a similar history..
bwaaaaahhaaaahaaa lol
This is EXACTLY why I will never co-sign any of this craptastic type of ‘oh I’m saying it to defend you silly black wimmens’ type of arguement.
All it takes is for one to pull ask you to defend one of yur indefensible claims and shock horror… you turn the exact same table on them.
Couldn’t get a turn with the doorknob could ya!
lol
jokes.
@shani…
oh puhlease… I’m as cool as a cucumber (hold on.. could that be misconstrued as some kind of metaphor for me being crazy..or mentally unstable or even shock horror promiscuous? lol)
Nah, I just can’t stand it when people demean other women in the most salacious of ways and then have the nerve to say they are doing it in order to uplift other women like me.
I also abhor it when people label other women (who they have no personal sexual history with) as ‘doorknobs’ based on the say so of other men who might have a grievance seeing as said women has left them behind.
And to top it all off, anyone who defends the sexual use and abuse of a person who they claim is well known to be mentally unstable (Has halle talked about any mental illness issues?) is disgusting, perverse and sick in the head.
Now, I’ve got to go catch my train..
toodles.
Everybody has their own perceptions of what beauty is. It truly is in the eyes of the beholder. I try to appreciate the diversity and uniqueness of female beauty without making comparisons.
I’m tired of white women being allowed to make sex tapes and do nasty things for media attention and no one calls them whores or says a negative thing to them!
Instead they give them money and treat them like queens of heaven.
If you look at a photo of Halle’s mother
and study her face and her bone structure in her face, you will see Halle’s face…
Except Halle has darker skin and thick hair.
White people love Halle because she is basically a dark skinned white woman in their eyes!
She has her mother’s face,
oh and happy thanksgiving.
Soul,
Can you read?
Where did I ever say that I revealed what I revealed about Berry to uplift anyone??? LOL. You have issues!
And I said that there was a lot more I could reveal about Berry but I wouldn’t go there. So, where do you conclude that I said her sudden faint spells and seemingly deliberate self-injury was the ONLY things that make her a little “off”?
Again, you truly have issues. Just like HB. For me, this site provides me with some food for thought and absorbing the viewpoints of others. For you, perhaps, it gives you a place to voice out your own inner issues.
I seriously hope you get help. Get a sense of humor, learn how to read better and take a trip off of the computer.
And since you’re so supportive of HB, buy a ticket to her next film so that she can finally have a hit film! LOL.
Again, this conversation with you is done!
One more thing:
You really got issues, Soul. LOL.
Who said that these numerous male actors “told everyone” that they had sex with HB? LOL.
This wasn’t “locker room gossip”. LOL. That you automatically assumed that it was, on their part, reveals something.
You took such great offense to learning of HB’s nature because it reflects something of your own life experiences.
Again, you really have issues.
And of course, this conversation with you is done.
I feel low even “going back and forth” with you but I don’t like someone throwing their baggage on me for saying something truthful.
Nubian Queen Says (comment #59):
“Abagond how could you forget about Kenya Moore? I think she is Wayyyyy more attractive than Halle Berry.”
I agree, but I stuck to women who I think anyone would know. Kenya Moore is not as famous – but still very beautiful!
mynameismyname, I see you.:)
JJ said (comment #68):
“I do think that Halle is considered so beautiful because people know that she is half white but I do not think it is because she looks white. Halle Berry looks nothing like a white woman to me. Her features are very similar to Sanaa’s and Gabrielle’s.”
Good point. Before I knew her mother was white I did not think of Halle as half white nor did she seem that way to me. She seemed like Sanaa does to me now – just black.
Do white people see the white in her? Or does she look like a plain black woman to them? Or does knowing she is half white make them more comfortable with her (like with Obama)? How to tell?
Jennifer Aniston: I never got what people – or Brad Pitt – see in her. She is a middling actress and not even pretty. Maybe it is because I never watched “Friends”. When I wrote this post I did think about her because she seemed to be hyped way beyond her merits too.
Beyonce’s diction: it is, in fact, shockingly bad for someone who is in the public eye.
Shani said (comment #100):
“You mention that she doesn’t have beautiful eyes. I think she does; they are large doe-like, but what she doesn’t have is that almond, upturned, sexy, cat eye that many black women have particularly in the pics that you have of Angela Basset, Tyra Banks, and Gabrielle Union. I think this is why Halle has a commercial look. Maybe this is why you don’t think her eyes are beautiful? I think they are….just a different type of beautiful.”
I think Halle Berry’s eyes are beautiful, in and of themselves, doe-like and all, but the eyes of some other women, like the ones you named, are way more beautiful. They are not just more pleasing to look at or “what I prefer”, they affect me physically. It is like they send electricity through my body or something.
I wrote this post partly because you asked on another thread:
“Would you please explain specifically why you don’t consider Halle Berry top 10 material?”
So that is why I broke it down like I did.
Jasmin said in comment #71:
“If people can’t give their opinions, not only blogging, but also conversation, must cease to exist. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with disagreeing with someone, but chastising them for saying what they said because “It’s mean!” is basically derailment because that argument just runs in circles every time. Everybody has something negative to say about someone/something else.”
I agree.
Halle Berry is a public figure. She is not beyond criticism.
Myname did seem to be getting off topic, but he was able to relate it to the subject of the post.
@ Soul:
Much worse than anything Myname is saying is this: Halle Berry played the lead in “Monster’s Ball”. Angela Bassett was offered the part but did not take it because she did not like how it stereotyped black women.
@abagond..
So what?.
Because Halle took the role she is now persona non grata?.
I suppose Angela Bassett in ‘meet the Browns’ wasn’t portraying a stereotypical blackwoman from the hood, with 3 kids by 3 different fathers. Isn’t that a stereotype?
Maybe puffy shouldn’t have played the role of the stereotypical jail bird fatehr who couldn’t be there,
What about Terence Howard in Hustle & Flow..wasn’t his role stereotypical or better yet, Wesley Snipes in Jungle Fever?.
How many black men are playing the stereotypical role of stud, jail bird, gangsta?.
Maybe she needed money, maybe she needed to work who knows.. I bet she wasn’t the only actress vying for the role.
But then again that’s not the real issue is it?
I mean the real issue here is it?
if actors and actressess only played roles that uplifted their marginalized group, there would be no work for them. who is to say what is uplifting or not.
that point brings us to the truth, actors of colour need more opportunity to portray a range of characters.
look at Monique, she has made her name by playing MSM stereotpyes of Black women, she was given the opportunity in the movie Precious to “really act”, and she knocked it out the park. she always had the talent, but never the opportunity to show and prove.
Soul,
This is the last and final time I will address you on this matter.
You are not on my level. To go “tit for tat” for you would be futile.
For you to question my credentials because you can’t handle the truth about a waning actress who you obviously have some type of attachement to is both ignorant and hilarious.
I have nothing to prove to you. It’s known that I am amongst the background of the entertainment industry. I was born into it, to be honest. It’s no big secret around here. I will not disclose my personal information on the internet because that’s wrong to do. But the industry I work behind the scenes in and the info I know about both it and it’s players is fair game.
Judging by your emotional responses, the knowledge of this woman’s behavior really resonates with you. Like I said, you obviously have HEAVY issues. Issues that Abagond’s blog won’t help resolve. Whatever your methods are, I really hope you cope with whatever inner demons you’re dealing with. Seriously. I don’t want you end up like Halle.
Halle slept around with tons of men (including the white dentist who paid for her nose job before “became big”). She’s known for batty behavior that exceeds the sudden faint spells and constant self-injury (anyone remember the multiple car crashes she was at the helm of?- one in where an elderly woman was killed?). She’s known for being a tad mentally unstable.
This is all old news.
So why in the hell does it bother you so much when someone brings it up?
How can you prove that it’s NOT true? Answer that!
Finally, I’m done with you. I apologize to Abagond and the many sane, intelligent, mature posters for even entertaining “Soul”.
I’m sorry and I’m done. Thanks.
Wow this is the truth! I’ve been wondering for years about this myself. Halle Berry is average, there is nothing exotic about her or different. All those Brazilian women that you showed on a previous post blow her out of the water. They were all beautiful. If she would go to the Caribbean or Brazil she would not stand a chance.
Please do a post on Black Latinas!
I never knew about an accident where an elderly woman was killed. Was it a cover up or something because it didn’t make news? Everyone knows about the one where an Indian woman was hurt which was in the news. OH MY!
@shani…
Did a google & ENPS search absolutely nothing.
I guess there’s this great conspiracy by the MSM, all the gossip rags and blogs, all the men who she slept with Halle Berry, international journalists as well as the police and all other opportunists itching to sell a celebrity story… to hide this piece of news from the public.
(you know keep it under wraps because they think Halle Berry is God! and they worship her and seem emotionally bonded )
or maybe they all have the same issues as Halle Berry so they don’t want to tell anyone.
Or maybe it didn’t happen at all. And someone is just telling porkies in order to make a point and to seem like they are in the ‘know’ about someoine else’s life. You know the person they don’t care about.
mynameismyname,
No apology needed to me. I know how it is, brutha.lol
It’s interesting to hear your perspective because a lot of people are curious as to why she’s had such a hard time with men. Because she seems to have everything going for her. And I always wondered how could someone who has a seemingly charmed life, be so unhappy.
I agree with Miss Carribean, there are some beautiful brazilian and Carribean women who are absolutely gorgeous. I do think Halle is too, but not to the extent that she’s portrayed. Like I said, it was the “Halle Berry” cut that put her on the map.
Shani,
Everything doesn’t make the news.
For instance, several fires and murders that have happened in the vicinity of where I used to live. The press never reported it.
But the car accident that involved the elderly women happened around the late 1990s. If I can remember right, there was another erratic car accident that involved her that DID make the news. That may be the one you’re referring to that involved an Indian woman.
(P.S.: Brandy’s whole ordeal with her car drama isn’t new for her either.)
You can look up the whole ordeal that HB had with the white Illinois dentist that she paid for her nose job. Strangely enough, Jet magazine actually reported on how he tried to sue her years later! LOL.
You shouldn’t always believe what you hear but all this stuff about Berry is old news. And you couldn’t make this up. Who would want to, you know?
Miss Caribbean,
I get what you’re saying but I don’t think one has to be “exotic” to be beautiful. You can look familiar and be stunning. Who doesn’t love a classic beauty?
I deleted some comments by Myname and Soul in which they called each other names.
I am with Island Girl: Halle makes MORE sense given what Myname said. Also, I have never known him to make up stuff. In my experience he does not write something unless he is sure of it.
I agree Abagond. I don’t see why myname would make up anything. Its not like it would change anything, so maybe he has a point. But I am not surprised by any of the comments written about her except the car accident in which an old lady died. That must have torn her to pieces, especially since it was an accident. It must be tough living with that. I have to admit that I have sympathy for her in this case.
Thank you, Abagond.
You know that I am no Berry fanatic or hater, so I gain nothing from making up anything about her, be it flattering or unflattering.
I was wondering if you were going to delete the comments where I lost control and let Soul’s ignorance lead me to call her some not-nice names.
I’m very sorry, Aba and all of the other posters who have sense.
I honestly feel that I let you guys down.
Next time I provide some insider info, I will take more precaution. Since there are some who react violently when you disclose certain information about someone they may admire.
Again, Aba, I truly apologize for that dispute with that poster.
I also symphathize with Berry about the car accident where a life was taken. Even though it was an accident, that would destroy anyone who lived to tell. In the case of HB, it worsened her already fragile mind state.
That is why it’s so important to practice safety on the road. I see too many reckless drivers on the road. You are truly playing Russian roulette with your life when you are not alert and don’t take proper caution on the road.
You are right. I drive like an old lady I am so paranoid. Sometimes people even bump the horn at me, but I don’t care because I don’t want anyone to hurt me neither do I want to hurt some one else. I am not being funny but maybe she should get a chauffer.
Dani did warn us way back in comment #2 that talking about Halle Berry was playing with fire:
“You are to get jumped on for this Abagond be prepared. Same for what you said about Beyonce lol”
Soul said:
I just can’t stand it when people demean other women in the most salacious of ways and then have the nerve to say they are doing it in order to uplift other women like me.
Menelik says:
I have to agree with you sista friend! This post was absolutely NOT about halle berry’s character but her representation, in one form or another, as a ‘Black’ beauty.
It doesn’t take a therapist to work out that some of the sistas’ on here have issues with skin colour and their own lurking sense of self-loathing.
It’s a real shame considering that one or two of them are really quite stunning. Still, like I said above, I’m working towards correcting matter in a book on racial envy and the psychological oppression of dark-skinned Black women.
In this book I show overwhelming proof that bi-racial sistas’ are used as a psychic buffer by white society so as to conceal an underlying (one might say, natural) attraction for dark-skinned Black women.
Like I say, I have the evidence over 20 years!
Menelik Charles
London England
It’s no secret that biracial women are placed on a higher pedestal than monoracial black women.
I just had a conversation with someone who knew the “greatest entertainer of all time”. This entertainer had a girlfriend who is biracial. I saw a picture in which I thought was the girlfriend. I commented that I was happy to see this entertainer with a normal pretty black woman because I felt that I could relate to that. He told me that he’s never known him to be with a “regular black woman”. Like that was an insult.
Well, jeez thanks. Menelik, it does seem as though full black women are at times one step below. We are not as valued as others.
And I think that is what some feel about Halle. Other black actresses, regardless of talent, have not been able to break through.
It’s not Halle’s fault, it’s just the way it is.
Monoracial (b/k/a everyday) black woman are beautiful and very valued!
You are but one example of their beauty, Islandgirl!
“Biracial” (which means black/white, I guess?) women often have the same issues with self-loathing and the feeling of being undervalued as any other black woman. Don’t believe the hype.
If a man is only with a woman because she’s “exotic” or in this entertainer’s case, “not regular black”, that is a loss for both of them. No one is winning in that situation.
Halle is hardly the most successful black woman in Hollywood. But she’s among the most hyped by the mainstream media for her looks (solely). There are still plenty of gorgeous and talented black women in the business who get loads of “play” even if they don’t get Halle/Beyonce’s manufactured pop-media hype.
What is an ad hominem argument?
An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument… by ATTACKING…a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or PRODUCING EVIDENCE against the claim.
mynameismyname said:
@ Soul,
Judging by your emotional responses, the knowledge of Halle Bery’s behavior really resonates with you…You obviously have HEAVY issues…that Abagond’s blog won’t help resolve.
…I really hope you cope with whatever inner demons you’re dealing with. Seriously. I don’t want you end up like Halle.
Menelik replies:
It’s patently obvious that mynameismyname could not counter the argument by sista Soul and so instead resorted to an ad hominem argument i.e. to attack the person just as she has been attacking halle Berry for all manner of reasons unrelated to the topic’s title!
Menelik Charles
London England
Soul said:
mynameismyname…what you’re spouting here is some of the most obnoxious, ridiculous, ‘has nothing to do with the topic’ crap I have ever heard.
Menelik replies:
and this is the absolute truth! The topic’s title is:
“Halle Berry is not the most beautiful Black women in the world”!
mynameismyname had gone way off topic. Fact. Try and accept that you were wrong to do so given that halle’s sex life and alleeged mental health issues are NOT part of her aesthetic beauty!
Menelik Charles
London England
ps Soul, I guess you are from the UK from how you phrase certion things. Right?
^^^
Okay, that’s over and done with. Soul never had any real argument to begin with. She didn’t like what I revealed about the celebrity subject and went on the attack. I told her that she needs to resolve the issues she displays herself as having.
It’s over and done with. Stop trying to instigate. We’re all adults here. Move on. Good look on your book.
@menelik..
Watch out now, you are going to be accused of being mentally unstable, having a halle berry fetish, promiscuous, having ISSUES! heavy issues, crazy, clumsy, having heavy demons, Insane!!. lol. Look read through, I’m too busy laughing to get through the entire list of insults..
I mean a grown up is actually on here saying things that don’t make any darn sense.
1) A person is crazy, can’t you tell she has fainting spells!
2) She is clumsy thus it helps to prove how mentally unstable she is
3) A whole lot of men are falling in line to sleep with an alleged ‘mentally unstable’ woman and its her fault! that Jezebel. She damn near forced them, stalked them to copulate with her
and…
finally to prove that this woman is the most God awful human being in the world
4) She is a murderer! O_O
and the proof His word! as an ‘industry insider’
I wonder what else he is going to make up, maybe Halle Berry is actually the grinch! the ghost of christmas past, Azazel or Eshu in disguise, or maybe even the terminator?. (I mean why stick to reality when this dude is obviously just pulling things out of thin air)
At first I said it was ridiculous and obnoxious, but this.. this right here is just pure delusion.
Every time his points are nullified he pulls something else out from thin air that only he knows.
But, I think that should be sorted now as I have pre-empted him and made a cosy little list for him to draw from to properly suit his delusional fantasies.
Dude has the nerve to say I have issues bwaaaahaaa haaa haaa.
mynameismyname said:
Soul never had any real arguement to begin with.
Menelik replies:
and you went waaaay off topic to BEGIN with and started disparging Halle Berry’s character…thus providing the justifiable basis for opposition to such an extra-ordinary, and mean-spirited, diversion from the topic at hand.
I guess we can let it go now if we are truly as adult as we claim.
Menelik Charles
London England
ps Soul, are you from the UK by any chance?
Menelik, your book sounds like it will be quite interesting, and it sounds like it will make sense. It’s no secret that the media seems to purposely exclude beautiful, dark women from being shown too often, but they don’t mind showing her if she is plain looking or unsexy.
What I’m still not getting is why some people (in general)get their self-esteem issues from TV. I try to empathize with people who say they feel devalued because of their skin color, but that’s honestly never been my experience. I’m sure there are plenty of Black women like me who can get pretty much any man they want, and it’s not even like I’m the finest thing that ever lived. Are there really that many Black men who feel like they can’t get a man because of their looks, or is it just that those who do feel that way are very vocal and tend to converge in the same place?
*I hope this isn’t too off-topic; the issue of Halle Berry’s beauty seemed to spur a discussion on what’s attractive and what’s not, and I’m always left scratching my head because I can’t relate to the experiences of some.
Same here. I could never understand why Halle Berry was considered the most beautiful black woman. I think Gabriel Union is:)
Same with Beyonce. The other two members of Destiny’s Child are much, much prettier than her.
Jasmin,
The internet gives people who have certain issues an anonymous platform to express them. The women who tend to post here are the ones who have issues with their racial appearance and self esteem. So, it gives a slanted perspective. If one doesn’t know many black women, they may think a lot of the female posters on here speak for all.
Most of the black women I know in real life are like you. They never have a problem getting a man. Most of the black people I know also don’t get their ideas of what is beautiful from television. But as evidenced by many of the posters on this blog, there are people who actually DO.
Your own self-esteem issues can hold you back. Ask Halle.
If you think low of yourself, how can you except anyone else NOT to?
Jasmin, post #92 on the “White Club” entry is a good example of I was talking about in the first paragraph of the post above.
I wonder how many people would guess she was “just” Black if they didn’t know her background?>>>
Before Halle’s nose job, she looked like a neighbor of mine. I don’t judge her for it, apparently it’s a standard practice across races to “break in” the industry. Has anyone seen the pics of CBS’s Julie Chen from the 90’s??? MY GOODNESS! Talk about de-racialization!
A lot of these posts are nonsense (no offense to anyone in particular). The problem for me is not that Halle is a representation of Black beauty. The problem is that the Halle/Beyonce types are the ONLY representation of Black beauty. And NOT just within White media, but within Black media as well. They are both beautiful women, and it seems like Black and Black-biracial women have to be FAR MORE STUNNING than your average White actress to be recognized as being equal. Nonetheless, we have a long way to go before we get there. And I do believe that these conversations will open those doors.
mynameismyname really ought to calm down with the degrading and unsubstantiated comments about Halle. We can speak about Halle not being the most beautiful Black woman in history, without slandering her as an individual.
Abagond, while I generally love your website, I was a bit shocked to see you support mynameismyname’s rambling posts. What proof do we have that mynameismyname’s claims about Halle are anywhere close to the truth?
I could just as easily say that mynameismyname is also a slut, uneducated, crazy, etc. It’s very easy to make crazy comments about people – we all can play that game. Please have your posters stick to the point of your article so that we avoid round about discussions that are not helpful or provable (did I just make up a word?).
You guys should examine a picture of Halle’s white mama so you can see why white people go nuts over her.
They see a white woman’s face with tan skin, they don’t see halle as black, that’s why she is called the most beautiful.
That’s where white people get their racist ideas from in the first place! White scientists started off by labeling human skulls and skeletons and giving them race labels and grouping them by the race color.
So halle has a white skeleton, in the white people’s eyes and therefore she is called beautiful, cause its all in the bones for white people.
I’m sick of gabrielle union, she is in every movie as if there are not millions of other black women that want to work.
They need to give another black lady a chance to be in the movie and quit using the same people over and over.
Jasmin,
I do agree with you in the regard of not being able to relate to posters who are devalued personally. And I can see why you’ve never had a problem.
But, I have heard several blanketed statements about black women as a whole as not being good enough. That is what really irritates me. They take the worst image of a black woman in their minds and apply it to all black women.
Then they make statements like the one I mentioned above.
But that is not ALL black women’s experience, personally.
Truly, this is the very last time I will address previous comments that I made about HB’s off-stage antics.
For HB’s rabid fans (who don’t seem to support her usually financially-unsuccesful films) who want to go into denial about the “old news” I revealed about HB or attack me personally because you don’t like the truth about your beloved celebrity:
Just leave it alone. It is what it is. This post’s aim was to debunk the myth that Berry is the most beautiful black woman, aesthically AND in terms of character. It’s no deeper that that.
If certain comments offend you, refrain from reading them. And again, since some of you are in denial about Berry’s exploits past or present: Prove that they are not true. Seriously. Prove that me and all of the other industry folk just made it all up to smear Berry’s name because we care about her waning career so much. Tell it to the dentist she slept with who paid for her nose job and sued her years later. Tell it to the family of the elderly woman whose life who taken. Tell it to those who were around on various film sets and witnessed her loony behavior (which included sucide attempts like on the set of “Queen”). Call them liars to their face. Or just come off it.
I’m not going back and forth with some of her blind fanatics anymore. I already apologized to Aba and to the other posters for letting one of them bring out a nasty side out of me. And it’s not going to happen again.
@Jasmin….
I don’t understand either, but then.. I don’t own a TV. And I think the entire gamut of black is beautiful. I also come from a place where ‘light skin’ does not equal white ancestry.
I feel fine in my skin. I love it. I have no understanding of people who do not love the skin they are born in. If their is one thing I ‘borrow’ from the bible folk it is the saying : ‘god don’t make ugly’.
At the present time, I don’t think there are any ugly people just people with ugly souls.
Thanks mynameismyname, I forgot to say that before.
I’m not a Halle fan nor dislike her. I’m pretty neutral about her. It’s just good to get the whole story about a person before you place them upon a pedestal.
This is an interview with Christopher Williams. It clarified some things for me.
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/story/wesley-snipes-named-as-halle-berry-abuser
@Jasmin….
I missed out something you said when you asked how people can let the media control their self esteem.
I think a lot of the time it could be based on peer pressure.
I have said over and over again on various threads on this blog, that black women are the most wanted women on earth.
Some people want us but can’t admit it that’s why it drives them crazy and they lash out.
Other women go to extreme lengths to acquire what many of us naturally possess and still they can’t quite get it.
Even the ones who scream they don’t want us, can’t seem to quite leave us be, and let us go on our merry way.
I’ve said it numerous times and I’ll say it again. Black women are the most desired women on this earth. And everytime I come across a woman who doesn’t know her worth, I sigh.
As beautiful as Halle Berry is in her own right, I find her overrated imho. I do agree there are more beautiful BW than Ms. Berry.
Islandgirl,
Thank you. I’m also neutral about the woman. She’s not the most interesting NOR the most successful black female celebrity so who would want to “dirty” her name for the hell of it?
I could see someone wanting to lie about Oprah or Michelle Obama, “sisters” with true clout, but HB??? In all respect, who in the hell is she to be putting on a pedestal, lieing about or getting worked up over? LOL.
It’s funny, the reaction to what I revealed about HB is similar to the reaction I got from SOME people when I used to tell people that R. Kelly had a predilection for young girls. Or that Michael Jackson was heavily drugged. Or that Michael Jordan was a mean-spirited, egotistical weedhead who chased around white women all day. Or that Tiger Woods was pretty much the same as Jordan, minus the weed and that his white blonde wife kept tabs on him so much because he would reguarly cheat on her with even whiter and blonder (and younger) white women.
Like some of the posters on this board, people got mad at me! They cussed me out. Called me a liar. Told me that I no right to reveal such things about such celebrated figures. (All of whom except Woods, I happen to be a fan of BTW)
And WHAT IN THE HELL WOULD EVENTUALLY CAME OUT ABOUT ALL FOUR OF THESE MEN?!
It was all true from jump. It wasn’t malicious. It wasn’t an attack on black men. It wasn’t “vilification” or “deintergration”.
It was the TRUTH.
If you don’t like it, refrain from it.
I personally want to thank Soul for “putting us all in check” for the way this post was turning into a lynch and slander mob against Halle Berry. She really gave me the opportunity to sit back and take a look at myself because I was feeding into (and even enjoying) the gossip and malicious comments made about this lady.
I have been in situations where people gossip and lie about you based on your appearance and their jealously and envy. It is should be a crime the way some black women treat one another because of colurism and hair texture. It is not a pleasant place to be and it is understandable why Halle may have some issues. There may be other things in her life that have had a negative impact on her personality and the choices she has made also. I too know how damaging it is to be in bad relationships with men.
Mynameis may have some insider information, but I do believe this may be a man who is a little intimidated by a strong woman that made choices and mistakes just like everyone else, but still managed to overcome a lot and be successful. Have you heard how some black men put down Oprah Winfrey? I believe it is because of her strength and her independence and not because her personality.
Again, thank you Soul. At times we try to inflict pain and isolation on others and forget what we have gone through ourselves.
@G-ball.
you are welcome
I said in my very 1st post on this:
Seriously, how many times do we have to drill it into our heads that people say the darnest things when they can’t get their way, own or possess you. The things people say about that woman.. they will turn around and say it about you.
Perfect example right here.
I called his arguement ridiculous, he turned around and called me insane!, promiscuous and mentally unstable, repeatedly.
Sound familiar?
Anyone who disagreed, was simply a Halle stan. and he kept repeating this to himself over and over again until he believed it. No evidence, no proof, no knowledge, no asking, just occured in his head and BAM! it became a fact!
I don’t need to inflict pain on others to tell them that they just don’t do it for me.
I don’t need to vilify them and I don’t need to make things up either. I’m sill laughing at the Halle Berry is a murderer claim. o-0.
@G-ball
Yep, I’ve heard some black men go off on Oprah and if they think me pointing out the ridiculousness of this is anything then they haven’t seen me defend Oprah.
Because when it comes to Oprah, I am actually a fan.
I know how to chose people I look up to, and no amount of someone trying to tell me what or who I am, will make me accept it.
Final message to Soul:
Until you can prove that me, the many industry folks, the family of the slain elderly woman, the many men she slept with including the white Illinois dentist (and Christopher Williams) and witnesses of her behavior are making everything up about this woman because of some kind of weird conspiracy to “vilify her” (lol) her….
This conversation is permantely dismantled.
Shani Says:
Menelik, your book sounds like it will be quite interesting, and it sounds like it will make sense. It’s no secret that the media seems to purposely exclude beautiful, dark women from being shown too often, but they don’t mind showing her if she is plain looking or unsexy.
tragicmulattos Says:
A lot of these posts are nonsense (no offense to anyone in particular). The problem for me is not that Halle is a representation of Black beauty. The problem is that the Halle/Beyonce types are the ONLY representation of Black beauty. And NOT just within White media, but within Black media as well. They are both beautiful women, and it seems like Black and Black-biracial women have to be FAR MORE STUNNING than your average White actress to be recognized as being equal.
laromana says,
Shani & tragicmulattos,
I strongly agree with your comments regarding how the White media world treats Black beauty, BW, and Black actresses.
Although I don’t personally have self esteem issues or look to the White media to tell me how to view BW, I STRONGLY REJECT/HATE the ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES they push down EVERYONE ELSE’S throats (especially when MANY CHOOSE to believe the ANTI-BW LIES).
White women sleep around to get hollywood parts all the time why don’t THEY get called on it?
Halle is not whorsih like many white women are i’m sure.
I just deleted some more comments by Soul and Myname.
Until further notice I am enforcing a moratorium:
1. I will delete any comments on this thread by or about either Soul or Mynameismyname.
2. If they continue their argument through sock puppets or elsewhere on this blog, I will delete those comments too.
They have sunk this thread into a tedious back-and-forth ad hominem, each one doubting the motives of the other while defending their own. I doubt that Soul has “issues” or that Myname is lying. In any case, it does not matter because what matters is WHAT you say not WHY you say it. Motives are unknowable and can only be guessed at. Questioning them amounts to an ad hominem attack that adds nothing to the thread.
They are both more than welcome to continue commenting on other posts, just not this one for now and not about each other.
If they feel I am being unfair, they can appeal to me in private by email.
Sock puppet.. I knew it.
The bottom line is that Hollywood is convinced that there can only be one black leading lady at a time. It’s fine that she has that title, but I think the entertainment industry should be more diversified with black women.
Have you noticed the same doesn’t apply with black men? There has been everyone from Tyrese, to Denzel, to Terrance Howard. All different spectrums and types.
You’re right Laromana. It’s as if the media is afraid that the masses will find darker skinned black women sexy and beautiful.
island girl, I don’t know if this will make sense but I think that has to do with the eurocentric standard of beauty. White supremacy depends upon the eurocentric standard of beauty and the best way to get that across is through the media. So if white women and women who look white are the ones constantly put on a pedestal then they will be seen as superior which in turn the same men of that race will be seen as superior also.
This is why it is easier for the media to showcase different types of black men without showing the different types of black women because the standard of beauty of any culture is about the women not the men.
island girl said:
Sock puppet.. I knew it.
The bottom line is that Hollywood is convinced that there can only be one black leading lady at a time. It’s fine that she has that title, but I think the entertainment industry should be more diversified with black women.
Have you noticed the same doesn’t apply with black men? There has been everyone from Tyrese, to Denzel, to Terrance Howard. All different spectrums and types.
Girl you know colorism does not apply to Black men like it does with Black women lol. That is for the reasons that Shani said. It has to do with our society valuing Eurocentric beauty and any one closer to it. I notice that Hollywood prizes light skin Latinas over dark skin latina women. Dark skin latina women usually play stereotypical Black women roles or are casted as a Black female character. Where as Light skin latinas can play “neutral” characters like Eva Mendes and Eva Longoria. I noticed that Bi-racial White/East Asian women are valued as more pretty than someone who came from two Asian parents. Please! Hollywood loves to play racial politics and the women suffer the most under it. I counted how many Black women played lead roles in mainstream films and it was very little. Black people REALLY need to step it up and supporting Black actors/actresses and not only that Black women’s beauty instead of setting standards of who is more worthy of acceptance because the White media gave it to it us. We put Halle and Beyonce has the standard of beauty in our own community and that is faulty because Black women’s beauty is diverse. That’s why I said that Halle’s post are not going to go off too well with some people especially if they don’t think she the best thing since slice bread. The reason is because she is set as a standard in the mainstream media and in the Black media. If we diversify out images we would have less people arguing about it. This goes for Tyler Perry films as well. People go off on you really hard when you talk about his films. It’s sad that it has to go this way because he is set as a standard for Black films because the mainstream media likes him. It should not be this way because Black people are diverse!
Also I want to make an announcement to my fellow Black people to stop putting Gabrielle Union as the posterchild for “Pretty Dark skin women” there are plenty of a dark skin women that are attractive. If we accept her color as dark skin than it supports my theory that there is hierachy of acceptance of dark skin women being labeled as pretty. When are the dark skin women with bluish/violet undertones are going to make the list? thank you.
That’s right, and that’s why the black community should set their own standards and stop eating up what the media is feeding us.
dani says,
It has to do with our society valuing Eurocentric beauty and any one closer to it. I notice that Hollywood prizes light skin Latinas over dark skin latina women. Dark skin latina women usually play stereotypical Black women roles or are casted as a Black female character. Where as Light skin latinas can play “neutral” characters like Eva Mendes and Eva Longoria. I noticed that Bi-racial White/East Asian women are valued as more pretty than someone who came from two Asian parents. Please! Hollywood loves to play racial politics and the women suffer the most under it.
laromana says,
dani,
What an excellent, on point observation about how Hollywood plays racial politics with BW/dark skinned WOC vs. WW/lightskinned WOC.
It’s DISGUSTING/DESPICABLE that ONLY BW/dark skinned WOC (and NOT BM/dark skinned men) are subjected to this GARBAGE in Hollywood.
Shani said:
Menelik…the media seems to purposely exclude beautiful, dark women from being shown too often, but they don’t mind showing her if she is plain looking or unsexy.
Menelik replies:
what you say is also what I address in my book. The function of both the dowdy, dark-skinned Black and the Bi-racial actress’ is to publically deny the allure of the typical dark-brown Black woman and thereby keep in check white men’s sexual longing and white women’s envy of the kind of sista Abagond appreciates.
Thing is, Black women are sooo emphatically female, and so gracious in their movements, that for a typical white man to deny the inherent advantages Black women have over white women physically and aesthetically is tantamount to denying their heterosexuality!
Funny, this NEVER happend during slavery and the decades that followed lol
Still, it’s better (for them!) that they locate and appreciate Black beauty in the butt of J-Lo, in the lips of Angelina Jolie and in the swarthy skins of white female tanorexics on the beaches of California than
than to aknowledge that all these characteristics are typical of just ONE race of females!
Menelik Charles
London England
Shani and Dani,
I completely agree with everything that you said. I didn’t think of it in that way. The beauty standard is vastly greater for women than men (although I think that is shifting a bit). So colorism doesn’t apply to men as much because their value is not in their beauty but in power and talent and braun. And since we do live under a eurocentric standard of beauty, colorism is prevelant.
So, that makes sense.
Also, I think that lighter skin is more feminized. The lighter that you are, the more feminine you “appear”. Back again to the eurocentric standard and the history of our country. Not to complain but I would like to see a variety. It’s the spice of life.:)
Dani, Gabby is the “protype” for darker women. I do think she is beautiful, though. But I can’t think of another that is prominent.
I wonder if we will ever see the day when someone like Gabourey “Gabby” Sidibe will be seen as a beautiful Black woman. That would be a breakthrough, but ironically, I’ve seen Black female bloggers denounce her “black blue dark complexion”.
Beauty truly is in the eyes of the beholder, so I don’t think there will ever be a concensus on the most beautiful Black actress.
Dani said:
Girl you know colorism does not apply to Black men like it does with Black women lol…I notice that Hollywood prizes light skin Latinas over dark skin latina women. Dark skin latina women usually play stereotypical Black women roles or are casted as a Black female character.
Where as Light skin latinas can play “neutral” characters like Eva Mendes and Eva Longoria. I noticed that Bi-racial White/East Asian women are valued as more pretty than someone who came from two Asian parents. Please! Hollywood loves to play racial politics and the women suffer the most under it.
Menelik replies:
the cornerstone of white supremacy IS the white female so any female, ‘Black’, Latino or Asian has to symbolically represent white women.
This is ANOTHER reason why Black male movie stars are ‘allowed’ to be ‘Black’ but NOT the women.
Menelik Charles
London England
I agree. She’s pretty but Saana is my pick for “most beautiful”.
Menelik replies:
the cornerstone of white supremacy IS the white female so any female, ‘Black’, Latino or Asian has to symbolically represent white women.
This is ANOTHER reason why Black male movie stars are ‘allowed’ to be ‘Black’ but NOT the women.
laromana says,
This is at the CORE of the White supremacist ANTI-BW RACIST/HATE in American culture.
islandgirl said:
Shani and Dani,
I completely agree with everything that you said. I didn’t think of it in that way. The beauty standard is vastly greater for women than men (although I think that is shifting a bit). So colorism doesn’t apply to men as much because their value is not in their beauty but in power and talent and braun. And since we do live under a eurocentric standard of beauty, colorism is prevelant.
Exactly! I liked how you assert femininity to colorism. I believe that is one of the issues of colorism as well. Dark skin=masculine while light skin=feminine. Please lets not get on how features intersect with that as well lol. As far as Gabby, she is on a darker hue, however, her skin complexion tends to be the acceptable dark skin that is attractive. What about the dark skin women with bluish/violet undertones? They rarely make maintstream and Black media’s list as beautiful.
Dani, dearest, you are gorgeous!
Hurricane Chris even made a song about Halle!
Halle improvised the dance on the Ellen show it was funny.
Frankly no one is the most beautiful simply because beauty is subjective even though experts try to make it scientific.
I deleted comments by Menelik Charles and Lil’vina. They brought up Soul and Mynameismyname. We are not going to talk about them for now on this thread as part of the moratorium (see #166).
Menelik Charles said:
“Thing is, Black women are sooo emphatically female, and so gracious in their movements, that for a typical white man to deny the inherent advantages Black women have over white women physically and aesthetically is tantamount to denying their heterosexuality!”
Wow! I feel that way about black women too.
@ Abagond,
Yep, and another thing: look closely at your typical Black woman and you see most clearly within them the foxy, feminine features of, say, a typical Philipino female; the haughty demeanour of the European gentry but all wrapped up in the glorious physicality of women of African descent.
The same cannot be said, of course, about Halle Berry.
Menelik Charles
London England
ps Aba, let me know when, if ever, you visit England. I figure we could do some work to correct the ongoing assaults on the Black female.
Menelik,
You must let us know when your book comes out! I’ll be first in line in London
Merri,
well, you’ll have to be in the US as my publisher is African-American so it will be released their first lol
Anyway, the sooner it is released white men can maybe learn to treat Black women as a preffered choice instead of a dirty little secret with an exotic allure.
Menelik Charles
London England
Menelik,
Interesting, but from reading your posts on other websites (such as Siddity), I got the distinct impression that you were against Black women dating/marrying out.
You present a very different version of yourself here.
Thank you Menelik for he compliment
Patricia Kaydon said:
…from reading your posts on other websites (such as Siddity), I got the distinct impression that you were against Black women dating/marrying out.
You present a very different version of yourself here.
Menelik replies:
would you be so kind as to either cut ‘n’ paste a comment I’ve allegedly made to give you that impression or at least direct the reader to a site in which I have opposed Black women dating out?
@Dani,
you really should be thanking your parents, sweetie!
Menelik Charles
London England
well all i want to say is halle is a beautiful person but not the most beautiful black woman in america and she doesn’t represent every black woman in america. same with beyonce.
@ Patricia Kayden
I know what you mean. There are other sites that he comments on that are VERY anti-black female interracial dating,not that he says anything per se , but by not saying anything to his ‘bro’s’ implies that he condones the misplaced venom directed at black women.
That’s why I wanted to read his book about black women. Curiosity.
MerriMay said:
@ Patricia Kayden
I know what you mean. There are other sites that he comments on that are VERY anti-black female interracial dating,not that he says anything per se , but by not saying anything to his ‘bro’s’ implies that he condones the misplaced venom directed at black women.
@MerriMay,
“misplaced venom directed” at which Black women, dear? Those in inter-racial relationships who simply mind their own business or those who advocate that Black women should “open their options” while at the same time promoting an insidious brand of anti-Black male racism?
A simple question, dear, requiring but a simple straightforward answer. Will you answer it?
Menelik Charles
London England
No dinctinctions are ever made on those sites as to what ‘type’ of black woman in IRs were they?.Its all of them.The crime seems to be daring to date interracially.
Your own inaction of distinguishing that fact to the moderator is what is troubling and implies you’re in cahoots with that kind of logic. I didn’t hear you take the stand you’re taking with me, ie pointing out to the moderator to differentiate between those that ‘mind their own business’ and those ‘promoting anti-black male racism’.
Pointless to say anything more on the matter,its redundant.I’ve stopped going there.
Abagond is a much more balanced and intelligent forum for discussion that doesn’t espouse rubbish about one another.
At least here there is some constructive dialogue that doesn’t demean, bully and insult black women, we get enough of that in society period.
Out of respect for Abagond, I’ll refrain from giving such ridiculous sites exposure they don’t deserve.
Sorry that should be ‘distinctions’,am half asleep..
Menelik,
Do you know what the title of your book will be because I will be reading it when it comes out.
MerriMay said:
No dinctinctions are EVER made on those sites as to what ‘type’ of black woman in IRs were they?.Its all of them.The crime seems to be daring to date interracially.
Menelik replies:
1) this is absolute nonsense: a clear distinction was/is made on Mr Queens site between Evia & her ilk and Black women who date inter-racially without reference to Black men!
2) I have frequently challenged Mr Queens to refrain from the name-calling as it detracts from HIS message.
3) There has been no “inaction” on my part and YOU are in no position to state otherwise!
MerriMay said:
No dinctinctions are ever made on those sites…
Menelik replies:
what SITES (plural) are you referring to? Can you please NAME them so we can be a little more specific about the area of discussion.
Menelik Charles
LOndon England
Shani asked:
Do you know what the title of your book will be because I will be reading it when it comes out?
Menelik replied:
yes, I do have a title but to reveal it now would possibly give away the theoretical basis for my book (a theory I’d been working on for over 20yrs).
All I’m willing to reveal now is that much of what we believe is true re why dark skinned Black women are at the bottom of the symbolic beauty totem is utterly untrue (i.e. that whites see them as less attractive than, say, the Halle Berry types).
My case can easily prove this assumption to be untrue. I have the physical evidence, and it will, like Darwin’s theory of evolution, stand up to academic scrutiny!
Menelik Charles
London England
ps excuse my over-asertiveness above but seriously, and honestly, I have mountains of evidence to support both my theory and my overall case.
I won’t go into meaningless debates with people that know full well the position they took on certain sites.
Moving on…
Sorry am all over Abagond today, am home sick.
@Menelik
If u did challenge ‘Queens’ on the name calling then I owe you an apology, i just hadn’t seen it.
Either way glad to hear of a book coming out celebrating the beauty of black women, I do wish you luck with that, and I for one will be looking forward to it.
Peace
Hurry up and finish your book, Menelik! LOL
Is this book going to be balanced and fair to lighter skinned black women? I hope that it celebrates all shades of black because we all deserve to be celebrated.
islandgirl said:
Is this book going to be balanced and fair to lighter skinned black women? I hope that it celebrates all shades of black because we all deserve to be celebrated.
Menelik replied:
sista, the “balance” is provided by simply aknowledging the fundamental beauty of a group of women whose allure has thus far gone largely unaknowledged and/or derided by wider society.
I will not seek to reinforce what has already been over-stated i.e. that women of the fairer hue are beautiful – as society already holds up women of ALL races fitting this description as beauties supreme.
Thus this imbalance can only be corrected by showing how and why women of a darker African hue have been discriminated against, demoralised and oppressed in the service of maintaining the supremacy of the white female.
As I said earlier, the alleged moral sanctity and beauty supremacy of the white female forms the cornerstone of white supremacy in all of its gruesome forms.
Thus, women of a paler complexion, of all races, need no support from me, a Black man whose own blood sistas are burdened with a societal induced colour complex.
I am in the most fortunate position to possess concrete evidence proving that it is, indeed, the darker skinned, negroid-featured female with her African contours which confront white men with the full consequences of being heterosexual and which, as a result, cause within them the need to do the following:
1) to ignore their inherent beauty
2) to deny their inherent beauty
3) to claim that any Black woman who causes them to feel lust & appreciation is merely “pretty for a Black girl”.
This is just about all I am willing to say right now but do please keep in mind that the most derided group of women in white society are those held up as the beauty (and by extension) racial ideal.
“Blondes have more fun”, it is said. Not quite. I think you’ll find that more “fun” is had at the expense of blondes than anything else.
“Dumb blonde”, anyone? How about a promiscious Blondes, perhaps?
My point is that free Black women pose a threat to the racial order held together by the myth of the white female and so thus are sanitised in the form of a Beyonce or a Halle Berry who are then assimilated into this myth and psycho-social white supremacy reigns supreme for another day.
The likes of Kelly Rowlands and Estelle can go hang!
Thank you.
Menelik Charles
London England
Abagond said:
…Beyonce is to music, what Halle Berry is to Black beauty: both seem to be pushed by Hollywood…or whoever, way beyond their merits. They are both good, but not that good.
You wind up getting sick of them, almost hating them.
Menelik says:
I guess you feel this way because you sense that it’s not so much a colour preference or prejudice being suggested here but an oppressive mechanism being operated to ENFORCE a preference, to limit choice, and ultimately to maintain white supremacy as the societal norm.
To go against that norm one must locate one’s preference between prostitution and/or in some socially deviant location e.g. the ghetto. This is where Hollywood typically consigns the alluring dark-skinned Black female.
Alternatively, she may be found in the mammy-in-training role supporting some scrawny, pallid Ali McBeal-type “hottie” in the latest ‘chick flick’ or tv series.
Yes, you’ll find some pretty alluring dark-skinned hotties in such roles but you’ll also doubtless end up deeply resenting her de-sexualised (read de-femininised) status next her, sometimes, dreadfully plain white female co-star!
You like “nigger lips”? Check out Angelina Jolie. Want a hot butt? Check out J-Lo. Want some melanin enhanced babe? Check out the tanning salons or the beach. Celebrate, lust after or envy these characteristics but just don’t ever aknowledge that there exists a single race of women who, by nature, possess all of these characteristics at birth.
Don’t buck the system! Don’t tell the truth! White men and women have a racial inferiority complex! This is why Black women have to be oppressed where it hurts most…at the core of their self-image!
Get it?
No?
Ok, but let’s just see if we can figure out why the ugly sisters oppressed Cinderella, and were so intent on keeping her away from the royal ball. And later, were so determined to squeeze their over-sized feet into her glass slipper
Envy perhaps?
Just a thought!
Menelik Charles
London England
Menelik Charles:
I agree. There are plenty of beautiful black women – just walking down the street in New York like it was nothing – but you barely ever see them on television. Most of the ones you do see are at the extremes, like you said, of desexualized (Queen Latifah) on the one hand to trashy-looking prostitute types (Flavor of Love) on the other.
Menelik,
Thanks for the response and I certainly don’t want this to turn into a “tit for tat”, but I disagree with you to a point. As a lighter skinned, thin black woman, I rarely get support from the black community.
The thing is, I think black people should support each other more, regardless if they don’t fit into your agenda or security level.
Yes, I totally agree that Halle and Beyonce are pushed. We need more variety. But this shouldn’t come at the expense of women who are viewed as “privledged” because of color, hair type or size. And I’m not infering that this is what the book is about. But that is the reason I made that comment.
The grass always looks greener.
Menelik,
Concrete evidence? I know you won’t mention what it is but I am wondering what kind of evidence could you have that is concrete. The Cinderella example you gave made perfect sense.
You know what, Menelik. Now that I am thinking about everything you have said, it is making perfect sense. Black women are innately sensual. I’ve even had black men tell me that. Halle is beautiful but her sensuality is not threatening to whites because she doesn’t quite have that “it” factor that many black women have when it comes to being sensual, so they have no problem putting her in leading lady roles. She doesn’t really disrupt the system. As say Kenya Moore with all her body who would probably turn gay men straight if they would put her in a leading lady mainstream role, but that’s not happening.
As long as this has been going on, people should have figured most of this out by now. America is threatened black female sexuality for obvious reasons.
Shani said:
Halle is beautiful but her sensuality is not threatening to whites because she doesn’t quite have that “it” factor… America is threatened black female sexuality for obvious reasons.
Menelik replies:
you are making my point exactly! Many confidant Black women suspect that something is not quite right, that something just doesn’t add up.
The mistake they often make (as does Abagond) is assuming that the white (male) mass media which perpetuates this centuries-long racial beauty saga are some how racist i.e. that they do so because they feel or believe that white is right…always.
Let’s just say this: if Cinderella was a true story, she’d have grown up with an inferiority complex on account of how she was treated by the Ugly Sisters. It took a fairy godmother to come to her aid and a prince to rescue her from her plight.
The ‘beauty’ (well, privilege, actually) of the Ugly Sisters was gained from subtracting from the inherent beauty and grace of Cinderella. Their wealth bought them access to the ‘beautiful people’ i.e. royalty and the landed gentry.
The social marginalisation of Cinderella maintained this privilege and reinforced Cinderella’s social isolation and low self-esteem. In reality, it was the Ugly Sisters who felt inferior to their beautiful step-sister. They were ugly in both body and mind.
Does this tale not remind you of a certain race of women’s plight in white America? Very little is subtracted from the value of Oriental, Latino, south Asian or bi-racial women. Moreover, white women rarely seek to distort their bodies or to apply various shades of tan to appear like any of the above groups of females.
Feminine value is instead subtracted from Black women by white women and then celebrated (by white men) as healthy (a dark tan) or sexy (a round butt or a thick pair of lips.
The only reason white women are not generally aknowledged as possessing a natural racial inferiority complex in relation to Black women is because there exists no theoretical context (until now) to make sense of what is occuring daily before our very eyes.
In my book I show how white racism is, indeed a myth! Yes, racial discrimination exists. As does racial hostility. But not white racism. How can this be so? Well, I discuss my logic in my book…all of which is backed up with visual and theoretical evidence which cannot easily be dismissed.
I have been collecting evidence for my book since the age of 17. That’s 20-years past. I’ve had two American publishers on my case for years to finish it but the evidence keeps flowing in, and so I invariably put back the finishing date. I am ready to let it go now.
Menelik Charles
London England
I agree with you Islandgirl. One thing that I notice is that as much as people complain about “beauty standards” and such, colorism (as it relates to dating and relationships) is most strongly enforced by Black people, specifically Black men when it comes to Black women. Whatever reason some White men have for not dating Black women, it’s usually applied indiscriminately, without exception for ligher-skinned women. (I personally think this is because of the one-drop rule–if you are perceived as Black by Whites, the amount of melanin you have doesn’t matter. In the same way, I kind of scratch my head when White girls talk about being self-conscious about their paleness–in my mind I’m thinking they just look “White” to me.) I hear the most ignorant comments about skin color from–guess who?–other Black people. I say this as someone who gets chased by all kinds of men, except Black ones, who only catcall (but I don’t count that as genuine interest). It doesn’t bother me, because I don’t have race quotas for male attention, but it seems like the people most invested in maintaining beauty standards (of which the latest seems to be “mixed” women in the BC) are predominantly black men.
islandgirl said:
Menelik, Thanks for the response and I certainly don’t want this to turn into a “tit for tat”, but I disagree with you to a point. As a lighter skinned, thin black woman, I rarely get support from the black community.
Menelik replies:
I’m not sure what you mean by “support”, babe. And which sex in the Black community is hostile to your presence? The women, perhaps…and the oddd male.
I think you’ll find that most rap and r’n'b videos offer you all the “support” your self-esteem needs to flourish. What’s truly lacking is support for how the mass majority of how Black women look.
Have you offered them your “support”? Have you raged against the colour prejudice they’re subjected in the Black mass media, let alone the white one?
Why is it necessary that I “support” you when I have not come close to attacking sistas of a lighter hue?
islandgirl said:
I totally agree that Halle and Beyonce are pushed. We need more variety. But this shouldn’t come at the expense of (lighter) women who are viewed as “privledged”…
Menelik replies:
I have never known of an individual or a group of light-complexioned sistas advocating for a greater “variety” of Black women in the mass media. Have you?
Instead, individually and collectively they sit back and allow the likes of Kanye West, Yung Berg and now Neyo dismiss dark-skinned women as inferior. This is NOT a complaint, sweetie, merely a fact.
It’s funny how people never realise they’re “privileged” (as you put it) until that “privilege” is challenged. And then they play the victim and demand “fairness”. It’s a bit like the KKK demanding racial equality for whites…the absurdity of it!
What have you done in your life to bring about “fairness” to countless dark-skinned girls who will doubtless grow up feeling themselves less “privileged” than lighter-skinned sistas?
My book will not stoop to attacking whites etc but it will challenge a status quo in which the “privileged” will not be sitting comfortably in their seats. Should you not be encouraging me to “fight the power” and to bring about a fairness in which your darker-skinned sistas are no longer consigned to the toilets of white society?
And your answer is….
Menelik Charles
London England
Jasmin said:
I agree with you Islandgirl. One thing that I notice is that as much as people complain about “beauty standards” and such, colorism (as it relates to dating and relationships) is most strongly enforced by Black people, specifically Black men when it comes to Black women.
Menelik replied:
Funny, I don’t recall islandgirl talking about “beauty standards” or…colorism (as it relates to dating and relationships)”.
And nor did I read anything about her mentioning Black men bullying Black women not to date white men! This is mere wishful thinking on your part, sista. The masses of Black women do not desire to date white men. Have you not heard?
I guess it really irks some Black women that the men of their race are perhaps the only group of men deemed more attractive than their women lol. Of course, this is NOT true but I do wish certain types of Black women would stop perpetuating the myth that African-Americam men have the power to prevent white men and Black women from hooking up!
It is tantamount to holocaust denial given how powerless Black men were for centuries to prevent white men from raping their women and girls.
Moreover, the history books show that white men and Black women conspired to keep Black men from hooking up with white women…for obvious reasons.
Why do people like you continue to replace history with contemporary myth? If you want to date the most powerful and privileged group of men on the planet, I’m pretty sure some street-lurking Black thug couldn’t stop you lol
Thanks.
ps and please don’t put words in islandgirls mouth. It is very rude to lie in order to spread more lies!
Menelik Charles
London England
As an African female who is neither light nor dark(not that I care but I’ll play along) I can’t say I’ve witnessed this so called hostility towards light skinned women in the black community. It’s almost akin to white women claiming to be bullied by us jealous black women, I just don’t see it I’m afraid.
The public ridicule of Young Berg’s ‘dark butts’ am sure had a lot of our light skinned sistas(those that are so persecuted in the BC)glad they weren’t the subject of such ridicule, after all they aren’t ‘that dark’ and exempt from it.
I agree with Menelik’s logic that no one rushed to darker skinned black women’s defense. If at all our darker sisters complained, they’re bitter, nappy headed et al.
They revelled,subconsciously of course, in their lighter hued previlege.
This however shouldn’t turn into another light skin/dark skin debate, we’re all black period!My issues are why wider(read white) society continues to deny us our rightful place, centre stage with other races of women.Not that we need society to validate our beauty:)
The random beautiful women on this blog are testament to that.
My answer is that I totally agree with Jasmine. And intially I was going to use her as an example but thought I should keep her name out of it. She is one of probably countless examples of women of a darker hue who doesn’t experience this seemingly elusive victimization. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen, but we ALL have our hardships, especially as black women.
When a white person looks at me or any other lighter skinned women (which I’m not as light as the pic, but that’s how other blacks describe me), do you think they categorize us? No. They see a black woman, period. Now, beauty is beauty regardless of shade. So whether a woman is dark or light and she’s beautiful, people will notice. Jasmin doesn’t have any problems with men either.
I still say that blacks are our own worst enemy in regards to colorism. The most ignorant comments are from other blacks. And blacks of EVERY shade have heard their share of derogitory comments.
And in regards to videos, I live in the real world not a video set. I don’t know Kayne or Young Berg or Ne-Yo. So I can’t relate to that.
MerriMay,
I don’t think that lighter women revelled in Young Berg’s comments. I didn’t and I hate when anything derogitory is said about any of us.:)
Islandgirl said:
1) Yes, I totally agree that Halle and Beyonce are pushed. We need more variety.
2) When a white person looks at me or any other lighter skinned women – do you think they categorize us? No. They see a black woman, period. Now, beauty is beauty regardless of shade.
Menelik replies:
darling, which one is it: the first point or the second one? It surely can’t be both. The white mass media either “push” Beyonce and Halle at the expense of darker-skinned Black women or they don’t?
If they view them as merely Black as you suggested in your second point, then clearly they are not treating beauty as beauty regardless of colour but because of it…a pale colour. Hence the lack of variety you claim we need!
Island girl said:
And in regards to videos, I live in the real world not a video set. I don’t know Kayne or Young Berg or Ne-Yo. So I can’t relate to that.
Menelik replies:
then clearly you do not entertain yourself with music, books, films, magazines etc. In which case, what are you doing conversing with strangers on the internet?
The music of Beyonce and the films of Halle Berry are all part of the industries you claim needs to show more varieties of Black women! Are you willing to retract that statement in order so as to score points against me?
Menelik Charles
London England
@ islandgirl,
darling, you’ve yet to answer my questions I asked you at 212. Will you have a bash at a few of them please?
menelik charles
London England
MerriMay said:
My issues are with wider(read white) society, which continues to deny us our rightful place, centre stage with other races of women.
Not that we need society to validate our beauty:)
Menelik replied:
And nor do dark-skinned Black women need white society to INVALIDATE their beauty which is precisely what it does at present!
Thus, in order for Black women to be accorded their “rightful place, centre stage with other races of women” you will most certainly require the white male-dominated mass media to begin to honestly “validate” or reflect the standard norms of Black beauty.
Yes?
Menelik Charles
London England
Menelik,
Using your Cinderella example, the stepsisters felt inferior to Cinderella only because she was more beautiful. Now using this to apply to your logic of why black women are devalued and ignored, why do you think they feel inferior besides aesthetic reasons? It has to be deeper than our shell.
Do you realize that maybe that not all whites may feel this way? There are exceptions to every rule.
@Shani,
whether we like it or not looks count for an awful lot in all societies. How, say, white women look in relation to Black women is a huge blow to their egos so much so that in moment described as REACTION FORMATION in pyschoanalysis they frequently become bigger fans of, say, Beyonce than any teenaged Black girl.
They sense sub-consciously what Beyonce function is in white society (she was chosen to represent white women) and so never escape an opportunity to say how beautiful she is.
Beyonce’s appearence does not SUBTRACT from that of a white woman but merely adds to it. She is thus unwittingly an instrument of white supremacy rather than of African-American femininity.
Yes, not all whites envy Blacks, true. But admiration is the flipside of envy, remember. Furthermore, the hostility so-called racist whites display towards Blacks is but an expression of envy.
The Ugly Sister were hostile towards Cinderella, were theey not? They discriminated against her, did they not? They never remarked on how beautiful she was, did they?
In conclusion, yes, there are exceptions… but they merely prove the rule!
Menelik Charles
London England
Why can’t both statements be true? Yes, Halle and Beyonce are pushed. Yes, there needs to be more variety, not only in shade but more actresses/singers period. Not just the same two.
And yes, most white people do not categorize us. They are not saying in their minds, “o.k., she’s light skinned or she’s dark skinned, so I should treat her accordingly”. Or “she’s a beautiful light or dark skinned woman.” Unless they are engaged in the culture through other people. There are always exceptions, but most do not. They have no clue.
I love entertainment, but I don’t let it dictate my self-esteem or influence me THAT heavily. I can listen to Snoop without getting high. I can see top atheletes with nothing but blonds on their arms without wishing I were blond or disliking every blond who doesn’t even have anything to do with that situation.
Not sure which question you’r referring to. In life, whenever you are considered to have an advantage (whether it’s true or not) you don’t get support because people think you don’t need it. In fact, the opposite. Whether you’re lighter, have “good hair”, thin, whatever. People preceive your life to be wine and roses and feel they have to level you. It becomes a double standard because the very way that they complain about their treatment, they turn around and do it to the “privledged”. Either way, it’s wrong.
One more thing. I never viewed dark skinned women as some charity case who needs stroking. Maybe I’m totally out of touch, but I see dark skinned women getting about the same treatment as light, with some exceptions. If they are attractive, then the are appreciated as such. But, that goes for anyone.
The point is that there are deeper issues that pretain to race without US contributing to it.
The moratorium against Soul and Mynameismyname (see comment #166) is lifted.
Mynaneismyname comments:
“Islandgirl is right on target. The same prejudice that can hurt “darker” black women also affects their lighter counterparts equally.
Black women, as a whole, are not victims who are hard pressed to be told that they are beautiful. That view is actually quite patronizing, no?
Also, Kanye and Ne-Yo never made derogatory remarks about black women. But like Islandgirl pointed out, both them and their comments are irrevelant to us in the real world as we do not live on a video set.
(BTW, do most people even know who Yung Berg is? Why would any intelligent adult use some C-list rapper to give credibility to an arguement? LOL)
Jasmine is also absolutely correct. You hear black folks complain about “colorism” but it seems that they are the ones who perpetuate it the most against themselves. Hopefully, a future blog on creating solutions to this eternal issue will be posed soon. Lord knows that many of us (of all races) need it!”
Islandgirl said:
…most white people do not categorize us. They are not saying in their minds, “o.k., she’s light skinned or she’s dark skinned, so I should treat her accordingly”…There are always exceptions, but most do not. They have no clue.
Menelik replies:
Darling, I suspect, wrongly or rightly, that my being a Black male maybe preventing you from accepting what is both obvious and true. Really, I do!
Abagond said:
Hollywood seems to push Halle Berry as the height of black beauty…I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not…black beauty but… white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.
Menelik says:
@islandgirl, maybe you need to take issues with Abagond since we are saying much the same thing…plus he’s white which may or not be a factor in how you respond to his wise words.
Menelik Charles
London England
Abagond said:
1) Kanye and Ne-Yo never made derogatory remarks about black women. But like Islandgirl pointed out…their comments are irrevelant to us in the real world as we do not live on a video set.
2) You hear black folks complain about “colorism” but it seems that they are the ones who perpetuate it the most against themselves.
Menelik replies:
Then Kanye & Ne-Yo’s alleged comments aren’t that “irrelevant” if they are a reflection of what described as an “eternal issue”, are they?
Menelik Charles
London England
^^^
Yea, they would be, if Kanye or Ne-Yo actually said them.
And again, why are you using (alleged) celeb quotes to illustrate your point. Yes, the media can influence how we think and fell but it is not the catalyst for anti-black racism.
In the 1880s before MTV and whatever other example you were using, what could be blamed for these types of ideas in the minds of black folks?
mynameismyname said:
Yea, they would be, if Kanye or Ne-Yo actually said them. And again, why are you using (alleged) celeb quotes to illustrate your point?
Menelik replied:
You cannot be serious! Doesn’t my point still stand (which was inadvertedly supported by Abagond) whether I use their alleged quotes or not?
We are a people riven with anti-African sentiments and yet we are an African people. Don’t yet get it? Do they (who be ‘they’, bro?) still have to hide the truth of our predicament in books to keep it from us?
Your name is your name, eh? Well, actually, it isn’t – it belongs to our traditional and contemporary enemies!
And what the hell do you think the white-male dominated mass media has declared upon women of African descent, love? It’s war, bro, straight out war!
You really don’t get it?
It really surprises me how little African-American history you guys actually know beyond some childish ‘Black’ soundbite!
Sometimes I feel like a Jew because those guys “never forget” or make light of their suffering. We do, which is why we keep going around in circles as a people.
Menelik Charles
London England
^^^
Menelik,
Now you are sounding very condesending.
I am not a child. I am not some “western black” who is unaware of or apathetic about the anti-black racism that has vexed people of African descent since the day that they were unwillingly brought her.
Since it seems as you haven’t read many of my countless comments on this blog, I personally invite you to e-mail me so you can get an even better idea of who I am and what I’m about.
You’d be suprised to know what my “government name” is. It’s as far from Anglo as you can get. Just like I am, ethnically.
Brother, I get you’re saying. Nothing you’re saying is original. It’s been said (and remained relevant) for centuries. But what are we going to do about it? How can we all help to get rid of it? Like I told another angry poster on this blog, it’s a waste of time to just get angry with no intention of trying to initiate change.
And, lastly, yes, “white society” has long been unfair to black women. We all know that all too well. But to paint black women as some poor, hard-up “ugly duckling” victims is to grossly underestimate their beauty, resilience and value.
Menelik,
Thanks for answering my question. I get what you are saying about Beyonce, and it makes sense, but when I continue to think, I can’t help but agree and disagree with the point you made about her. Beyonce has a black woman’s body for sure. In her features, I see almond shaped eyes, thick lips and thick bone structure, all features of West African women, so whatever “white woman” they see in her must be through her light skin and lacefront wig.LOL
Menelik, please don’t put words in my mouth, and please stop using platitudes a 5th-grader could dissect. And I am going to warn you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again.
When did I say anything about White men and Black women? My point is that the judgments that matter most to Black women are those of other Black people (specifically men) not White people. Therefore, focusing on the beauty standards White people push is a moot point, because the BC has it’s own subcultural definition of what’s hot and what’s not. Unless you are telling me that Blacks have been brainwashed by Whites, in which case you would be condescending to them?
Since you have yet to provide any statistical jargon to back up your claims, what you say about your book sounds like a load of horse dung. If you are writing a pop psychology book, fine, but if you haven’t used sound psychological methods in this alleged longitudinal study, portraying it as such is unethical and a bit tacky, don’t you think?
I haven’t made it through all of the comments, but I agree with the last paragraph of MNIMN’s right about mine. Black women don’t need your approval, help, or commiseration. Contrary to what some blogs might have you believe, most of us aren’t sitting at home lamenting how ugly we are and how no men want us because the opposite is true. Painting Black women as “sistas” you feel for is just another form of condescension, and I doubt any of them (including myself) want/need anything from you.
Islandgirl,
I still agree with your original point. The colorism issue for light- and dark-skinned Blacks is just 2 flips of the same coin. I can’t judge on the relative “suffering” (such a melodramatic term, but that’s how some people act) of light- vs. dark-skinned Blacks, because I personally have never had “color hardships.” Neither has my best friend, whose a little bit darker than I am, nor the countless popular girls in my primary and secondary schools, most of whom were darker-skinned. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but it negates the oft-heard sentiment of dark skin = unattractive. For light-skinned girls, being judged attractive has it’s drawbacks, because they have to worry about being a fetish. Who wants to be known as someone’s “light-skinned dream”, “redbone”, or any of the other many names light-skinned women are called? I have more to say about this but I need to get some lunch so I will be back later.
I just wanted to come in the post and divert the discussion and just say Black women are the shit end of discussion.
Jasmin said:
For light-skinned girls, being judged attractive has it’s drawbacks, because they have to worry about being a fetish. Who wants to be known as someone’s “light-skinned dream”, “redbone”, or any of the other many names light-skinned women are called? I have more to say about this but I need to get some lunch so I will be back later.
“Uh, I like a long hair thick red-bone
open up her legs to filet mignon that pussy” Come on Lil’ Wayne show some class. That line always bugged me. I’m dark skin and never undergone colorism, but I have seen others who have in front of my face. So I’m not colorism apologist, and write off my experience as proof that it doesn’t exist and “blame the victim” when ever a dark skin woman discusses her problems with colorism, (which usually that happens). I find it funny that if I find Gaborey Sidibe to be pretty, I’m being PC. So now because I think a big dark skin woman is pretty, I’m lying and PC? Damn come on folks!
@ Shani
In her features, I see almond shaped eyes, thick lips and thick bone structure, all features of West African women, so whatever “white woman” they see in her must be through her light skin and lacefront wig.LOL
Why are those features the preserve of West African women? Why not black women period? Of all black women in Africa, why is always ‘West’ that counts? Better revise that hon.
There are differences in how light skin women and dark skin women are treated. I talked about this in another thread on Abagond’s blog. I’ll just say light skin girls get the “uppity” label put on the “not black enough” label. Dark skin girls get the “She jealous of light skin women” label “She pretty for a dark skin girl” label or “She too dark”. Come on folks we gotta do better. So neither dark and light are accepted you just have to an in betweenie to be fully accepted because no one is going play tug-a-war with you.
Menelik,
First, I did not now you are a man. But that has nothing to do with my opinions. Also, Abagond’s white?! I didn’t catch that. Where did you get that info?
Abagond may share your sentiments, but he is not the one writing a book. I just wanted to make sure that one group of BLACK women are not attacked.
I’m glad that there are at least a couple of posters who understand what I’m trying to convey.
Jasmin, we share a similiar experience. I know there are exceptions, but I just do not see dark skinned black women who suffer socially because of their shade. And it is just two flips of the same coin. Great way of putting it!
mynameismyname said:
Menelik,
I am not a child. I am not some “western black” who is unaware of or apathetic about the anti-black racism that has vexed people of African descent since the day that they were unwillingly brought her.
Menelik replied:
I should jolly well hope not!
mynameismyname said:
I personally invite you to e-mail me so you can get an even better idea of who I am … You’d be suprised to know what my “government name” is. It’s as far from Anglo as you can get…
Menelik Charles replies:
where I am wrong is where I stand to be corrected. No point scoring on this side of the pond, bro. The issues are there to be debated.
mynameismyname said:
Brother, I get what you’re saying. Nothing you’re saying is original. It’s been said for centuries.
Menelik Charles replies:
I’m confused. What exactly are you talking about here?
mynameismyname said:
But what are we going to do about it? How can we all help to get rid of it?
Menelik Charles replies:
again, I’m confused. Do what about what? and get rid of what exactly?
mynameismyname said:
lastly…to paint black women as some poor, hard-up “ugly duckling” victims is to grossly underestimate their beauty, resilience and value.
Menelik Charles replies:
“ugly ducklings”? I think I came as close as hell to painting white women as “ugly” (sisters) NOT Black women! I doubt that anyone has depicted Cinderella (whom I compare the status of Black women to) as an “ugly duckling”!
And as for me appearing to “grossly” underestimating the “beauty and resilience” of Black women, well, I’m really not sure WHO you are referring to here. Once again, you’ve left me somewhat confused.
To be clear (as I have been throughout)I have spoken of Black women in the highest possible terms.
I have also, along with Abagond, suggested that Black women are victims of a terrible fraud instigated and maintained by, for Hollywood i.e. white men. This is a fact. It does not make them “poor” or hard up”. It simply makes them wronged!
Moreover, I have made it abundantly clear throughout that I intend to right this wrong. What are your plans on the matter, bro?
Menelik Charles
London England
island girl said:
but I just do not see dark skinned black women who suffer socially because of their shade.
How so? I’ve acutally seen it. The dark skin women with bluish/violet undertones usually are the butt of the jokes. Jasmin and I did not go through this experience because we are not dark enough to be called names. Also its regional. Colorism is really bad in the south. My best friend is light skin when she moved to Atlanta she started to be more color conscious. She said that the men down there do value them far more than dark skin women. She never really gave her color much thought up North but she was blowned away of slave-minded some of those folks were. Trust me she heard the most ignorant stuff come out some people’s mouths. So yeah for some depending on how dark or light you are it will affect your social interactions.
MerriMay,
I am not going to revise it because there is no need to. Those features are more common in West African women. Africa is the most diverse continent, right? So since there are black people who look many different ways and have all the original features, why is it wrong for me to make the distinction? We get upset when white people stereotype black people all looking one way, so why should we turn around and do the same thing. No, black people look different and diverse and that is why I made the distinction.
Menelik,
I was really trying to understand where you were coming from. But now it seems like you’re talking in circles and not making much sense in the process.
Again, I invite you to e-mail me. Perhaps, you can better explain where you’re going with your thought process and your aim to right the wrongs. I geniunely want to understand it better.
Jasmin,
Wow, you perfectly articulated what I’ve tried to emphasize to black folks when they play “opression olympics” in terms of who have been hurt the most by “color hardships”. Like I said elsewhere on this blog, NO ONE really wins in the black American variation of color prejudice.
dani,
You are so right. I am what the black community consider to be an in between color and in all my 20 something years, I have never been called a derogatory name about my skin shade. I even had one young lady, who is light skin say that my skin tone is perfect because it is not too light or too dark. As if it should matter. This may sound a bit weird, but when I was in high school, the girls who were the in-between in skin tone were voted queens and etc and were chased by the boys. The light girls were called sluts, and the dark girls were called rough necks. This school I attended was the exception to the “rule”. It was so noticeable that it was even talked about openly on campus. And this was in the south! Yes, at that high school, you were labeled as such simply because of your skin tone. Sad but true.
Shani,
But MerryMae is just saying that there are many West Africans who DON’T have those features you mentioned. Who’s to say that Beyonce or many other black Americans’ African roots HAVE to come from West Africa? They’ve could’ve easily come from Central Africa. (WA and CA were the two main regions where Africans were stolen by Euro masters in transit to the “new world.)
In any event, I agree that Beyonce is stereotypically “Sudanid”-appearing despite the tacky wigs/weaves.
Dani,
I used to think the same thing in terms of colorism being bigger among black folks down south than up North. But you know, I wonder if people in the South are just more up-front and vocal about how they feel? Perhaps, Northern folks share similar sentiments but know the risks of voicing them?
That is true. No one wins in black America’s color variation. Some may think that light women get preferential treatment when they suffer too as the example I gave as to what happened at my high school.
Jasmin said:
Menelik, please don’t put words in my mouth…When did I say anything about White men and Black women?
Menelik replies:
In answer to your question, read exactly what you ’said’ out of your own “mouth” at no 211
Jasmin said:
Whatever reason some White men have for not dating Black women, it’s usually applied indiscriminately, without exception for ligher-skinned women.
Menelik replies:
does this answer your question?
Jasmin said:
I am going to warn you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again.
Menelik replies:
have you any idea how you come across, missy?
Menelik Charles
London England
Also Shani,
I totally believe you!
From what I can tell, “medium”-complexioned black women seem to the ideal for black America as a whole. Hence why they represent the majority of black women in the entertainment industry, etc.
There is a “too light” and a “too dark” for black folks. But no “too medium”. People can’t hate on you when you are not an extreme.
mynameismyname said:
Dani,
I used to think the same thing in terms of colorism being bigger among black folks down south than up North. But you know, I wonder if people in the South are just more up-front and vocal about how they feel? Perhaps, Northern folks share similar sentiments but know the risks of voicing them?
LMAO You might be right. The south is blantantly racist so why not some of them be more blantantly colorist? Good point. I respect that about the south, I would whether have someone who blantantly tells me they don’t like for my skin color, thant to befriend or be with me and don’t see me as an equal while being phony.
mynameismyname said:
There is a “too light” and a “too dark” for black folks. But no “too medium”. People can’t hate on you when you are not an extreme.
I’m saying though! people don’t play tug-a-war with in betweenies lol
I understand perfectly what MerriMae was saying. I, myself have a mixture of West and East African features and get mistaken for being Ethiopian sometimes even though I am American born. Just because those features are common in West Africans does not mean they are not common anywhere else. And just because many West Africans do not have those features does not mean they are not common among them! Using West Africans as an example does not discount any place else in Africa. I think we are getting more into semantics here and are missing the point. I just used West Africans to make my point.
mynameismyname
You are right. Black americans have always seemed to prefer the middle color. I even had one light black woman who was also part hispanic tell me that my skin tone is perfect because I can easily make my self look darker or look lighter. LOL Also the entertainment industry perfectly illustrates this.
Jasmin said:
Since you have yet to provide any statistical jargon to back up your claims, what you say about your book sounds like a load of horse dung. If you are writing a pop psychology book, fine.
But if you haven’t used sound psychological methods in this alleged longitudinal study, portraying it as such is unethical and a bit tacky, don’t you think?
Menelik replies:
wow, you’re great fun, you are! The book by the way, is a psychoanalytic study of so-called white racism, babes. The research methods are more than reasonably and the conclusive evidence is more than compelling.
Interested?
Menelik Charles
London England
I forgot to add that because colorism is such an issue in the black commnunity that we have our own standard when it comes to color. Even though the middle color may not be seen as dark in the black community, I consider myself to be dark simply because when compared to the skin tone of other races, I am dark! LOL I’ve even had people consider me light,especially when I was in high school and that confounded me! It’s odd how we all see skin tone differently.
Menelik,
I assume you can read, but you must be having trouble. MY NAME IS JASMIN. Not “missy”, not “sista”, not any of that other bullsh*t you spew. I guess I have permission to call you a dumb *sshole since we are creating nicknames, right? I am not surprised that you are yet another person who wants to play “savior” to Black women with alleged self-esteem issues, yet you seem to have your own brand of disdain for them. This is the last time I will address you since you are not worth my time. Have fun wallowing in your own sh*t.
PS. Psychoanalysis went out with Freud, so have fun getting that peer-reviewed. (FYI to anyone who’s interested, psychoanalysis is basically made up psychobabble that can’t be objectively measured or categorized. It’s the basis of most of those pop psychology books, which you really shouldn’t waste your money on because the content is just what popped into someone’s head one day, with no scientific basis.) Hard to spew that crap to someone who actually knows what she’s talking about hmm?
I think I’m considered to be “dark” by most Black people, so I don’t know if the “medium” hypothesis is infallible. Maybe it has to do with the skin undertones, like Dani said? I have red undertones, so maybe that makes me look “brighter” when compared to someone with bluish/violet undertones?
MNIMN, I was pretty recently introduced to the term “oppression Olympics”, and I think it’s genius. Historically, Blacks have been very strong people, so for people to paint us as these weak individuals with self-esteem as fragile as antique glass makes me roll my eyes. I’m younger than the average poster on these blogs, and I’m sure that colors my perception (like Dani, just because I haven’t experienced colorism doesn’t mean I can’t empathize with those who have experienced it), but I just don’t see large numbers of women sitting at home drinking wine and lamenting the fact that they can’t get a man because of the color of their skin.
mynameismyname said:
Menelik,
I was really trying to understand where you were coming from. But now it seems like you’re talking in circles and not making much sense in the process.
Menelik replies:
Any objective observer can see that it is, indeed, YOU who is “talking in circles! Please stop projecting your own mode of communication unto me (I happen to possess a diploma in the subject lol).
You have totally misrepresented what I wrote and then started speaking in tongues! I merely quoted your words right back to you and awaited some clarity where confusion reigned.
You declined this discreet invitation and now proceed to somewhat harass me with utter nonsense.
Bro. I am more than willing to concede where I was wrong about aspects of your identity. But you are appear patently unwilling to make yourself clear where clarity was sought.
Instead you accuse me of creating confusion e.g. by suggesting that I depicted African-American women as “ugly ducklings”. Cinderella bares no relation to an “ugly duckling”!
You also asked what I was doing about about nothing in particular. I asked for written clarity as to what you meant.
No response!
You know, we got to let this stuff go. mood-altering slanging matches are not my gig.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
What is an ad hominem argument?
An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by ATTACKING…a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or PRODUCING EVIDENCE against the claim.
The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby SUBVERTED, and the ad hominem argument works to CHANGE the subject.
Jasmin said:
Menelik, please don’t put words in my mouth…When did I say anything about White men and Black women?
Menelik replied:
In answer to your question, read exactly what you ’said’ out of your own “mouth” at no 211
Jasmin said:
Whatever reason some White men have for not dating Black women, it’s usually applied indiscriminately, without exception for ligher-skinned women.
Menelik replies:
does this answer your question?
Can you not simply accept that you were wrong without resorting to ad hominem attacks?
Jasmin said:
I am not surprised that you are yet another person who wants to play “savior” to Black women with alleged self-esteem issues, yet you seem to have your own brand of disdain for them.
Menelik replies:
wow, another ad hominem attack!
Jasmin said:
This is the last time I will address you since you are not worth my time. Have fun wallowing in your own sh*t.
Menelik replies:
wow, another stereotype-busting rant! And all this because you accused me of putting your OWN words in your OWN mouth? Bit of a bully, aren’t you, Jasmin?
When was the last time you saw your father?
Menelik Charles
London England
@ Menelik
Now that’s not fair to ask her when she last saw her dad. What does that have to do with anything?? I’ve observed this very similar way you tend to bait and sway debate by getting personal. You pulled the same trick at ‘Queens’ blog with another black female blogger who challenged and stood up to you. When you disagree with someone, you derail them by asking where daddy is. Where are you going with that???
I was willing to hear you out, but this is getting ridiculous!
I agree with MerriMay, Menelik. I like reading your posts and you make valid points, but that was a low blow asking about her dad.
Abagond,
I linked to your blog from mine, since I just finished reading “The Color Complex” and some of the comments here are relevant to my post. Just wanted to let you know.
MerriMay said:
@ Menelik
Now that’s not fair to ask her when she last saw her dad.
Menelik replies:
it was but a question! A sarcastic one, yes, but a question all the same. If there’s something in it then it would go some way to explaining the extremily angry and bullying tone of this particular individual.
If there is nothing in it then it’s merely water off a duck’s back. There is NO problem. Why assume that there is one?
Anyway, have you been keeping track of her threatening comments towards me? The disrespectful bullying & delusional threats? Consider this:
Jasmin said:
And I am going to WARN you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again.
Menelik says:
and what is likely to happen if I call her sista? Answer: exactly nothing!
MerriMay said:
I’ve observed this very similar way you tend to bait and sway debate by getting personal. You pulled the same trick at ‘Queens’ blog with another black female blogger who challenged and stood up to you.
Menelik said:
please point the reader in the direction of this comment! I think a very different picture will emerge!
NEVER, EVER, EVER WILL ANYONE PROVE THAT I HAVE RESORTED TO ATTACKING ANYONE ON-LINE IN DEFENCE OF MYSELF!
THE PERSON WHOM I ALLEGEDLY MADE THIS REMARK TO MUST HAVE ATTACKED ME! NOT “STOOD UP” TO ME BUT ATTACKED ME FOR THE VERY LIKELY REASON THAT I AM BLACK AND MALE!
I DOUBTLESS TREATED HER WITH COURTESY AND FIRMNESS WHILE VERY PROBABLY QUOTING HER WORDS RIGHT BACK AT HER!
MERRIMAY, DIRECT ALL THE READERS to THE MR QUEENS POST IN QUESTION!
IN THE MEANTIME TRY AND KEEP UP WITH THE ATTACKS AND FREQUENT PUT DOWNS AGAINST ME HERE BY AT LEAST TWO POSTERS.
TO MR QUEENS BLOG WE MUST GO!
Menelik Charles
London England
Shani said:
I agree with MerriMay, Menelik. I like reading your posts and you make valid points, but that was a low blow asking about her dad.
Menelik reply
how do you that it was a “low blow”? Please don’t stretch logic by attempting to answer this question. I think you’re worth more than that.
Menelik Charles
London England
Jasmine,
Exactly!
How did you like “The Color Complex”? I didn’t care for all of it.
Personally, I see all black people as dark skinned but …well, they are. Just to different degrees, of course. Even if we are to use the “light skinned”/”dark skinned” measure, we all know where the vast majority of black people would wind up.
You are wise for ignoring an obnoxious poster. I should have been as smart as you earlier in this post.
And, age ain’t nothing but a number!
I have read what Jasmin wrote, I don’t need to retrack.
Not that I’m standing up for her, but seeing as how you’re directing your anger at me, I’ll have to address it.
Why don’t YOU point people out to Mr Queens blog, refute your behaviour that’s clear to everyone here to see. You started calling her ‘Sista’,to which she told you to refrain, then you persist rather patronizingly by calling her ‘missy’.
Tell me Menelik, at which point did you not understand her discomfort at you calling her that?? Again you’ve exhibited exactly the same kind of behaviour I observed at Queens, completely unprovoked you rail into people.
You’ve denied it before, but the more you’re challenged the more you unravel, lol.
The putdowns you’re referring to again is a couple of bloggers commenting on how your ‘evidence’ is hardly news.Hardly an attack unless you feel they’re undermining your thunder, after all you’ve hyped it so much that of course your logic will come under scrutiny.
You should be thanking these bloggers and taking notes, when you’re published you will most certainly have critics. Remember these will be the big bad white world, the little comments on this blog should hardly rattle you.
Now calm down!
“now calm down”….why assume he’s angry? the banter between jasmin and mr. charles is somewhat tactless and amusing!
and i agree that Halle berry is NOT the best looking black woman.
@therighttoparty
There’s been profanity traded here (which as you say you find amusing) and you’re only concerned with my contribution to ask someone to calm down?? Jeez..
MerriMay:
Why don’t YOU point people out to Mr Queens blog, refute your behaviour that’s clear to everyone here to see.
Menelik replied:
You brought up Mr Queens. The onus is on YOU to prove your assertion! My conscious is clear. I attack no one. It is impossible to locate any post in which I have attacked anyone! Vigorous defence, perhaps, but never, ever do I attack a fellow human being.
MerriMay said:
You started calling her ‘Sista’,to which she told you to refrain, then you persist rather patronizingly by calling her ‘missy’.
Jasmin said:
And I am going to WARN you, as nicely as possible, to never call me “sista” again
Menelik said:
this was a threat MERRIMAY! Missy was my response. Not exactly a threat, is it!
MerriMay said:
Tell me Menelik, at which point did you not understand her discomfort at you calling her that??
Menelik replied:
and at which point did you not empathise with my discomfort at being threatened prior to calling her missy?
Anyway, I realise that you are far from even-handed here. I have threatened no one here. Imagine if I did? Imagine if I told them to wallow in shit because I was caught in a blatant?
She NEVER mentioned Black women and white men, remember? Those phantom words I magically placed in her mouth?
I believe in sticking to the point as far as is possible which is why I quote what people say here, be they friend or foe.
There is simply no need for this negro male to attack anyone when their own words will condemn them, if need be!
Anyway, it is clear that we are not going to see-to-eye and that, truth, logic and plain honesty, will not reign supreme at this point.
So I’m bailing out here. It is the decent thing to do. Thanks for your time.
Menelik Charles
London England
Halle berry is beautiful, but very hyped up. But then so are some white women such as Megan Fox. I also though lela rochon was the prettiest in Boomerang. But now looking at recent pics, hall berry looks younger and prettier.
Menelik,
Answering a question has nothing to do with somebody’s worth. Aren’t you answering every question posed to you?
Yes, it was a low blow, and even you admitted that it was sarcasm. Well, Menelik, what was the logic in making that sarcastic statement? Aren’t you worth more than that?
MNIMN, I thought “The Color Complex” was pretty good, considering how old it is.
When I think “light-skinned”, I think of someone who is never actually brown, even when tanned in the sun. (So, Halle Berry wouldn’t count as light-skinned, but I think Beyonce might.) That probably jibes with research that shows only 10% of blacks are light-skinned. Yet, when you look at “light-skinned” groups on Facebook or people who claim to be light-skinned, half of them look like me! It makes me think that people want the “status” of being light-skinned, not the skin itself, so they are really hung up on the label. It’s like a new form of passing, oddly.
Wait, maybe Halle would count…ha, I’m confusing myself, but if I could think of better real-life examples (meaning people I’ve seen both tanned and untanned) then maybe I could explain better. Basically, shades of tan = light-skinned, shades of brown = medium or dark-skinned. That’s a really simplistic way of looking at it, but it’s my general heuristic for determining whether I’d call someone “light-skinned” or not.
Jasmin,
“The Color Complex” seemed biased to me. They didn’t really explore the varied experiences of black women who are perceived as “dark skinned”. But it is a rare book on the topic of black American colorism.
The best media documentation that I’ve seen on the topic would be Kathe Sandler’s documentary “A Question of Color”. Sandler, a product of an interracial parentage (her father is white), is a black-idenitified woman who looks extremely close to white. In the film, she interviews a wide range of black Americans from a wide range of locations (Tuskegee, Alabama to New York City) about their experiences with the “issue of color.” It’s a very interesting and well-balanced look on the age-old issue.
Be warned that it was released in 1993, so there’s high top fades and other examples of bad early ’90s fashion. LOL. Despite the fact that it is a bit dated, the viewpoints are still very relevant.
I would heavily recommend it!
It’s funny, I actually stumbled across a “light skinned” group on Facebook by accident once. It was hilarious! I notice that even in real-life, many black folks (mainly women) like calling themselves “light skinned” even when they are clearly not! I agree with you in that it seems as if these individuals view being seen as “light skinned” as some type of status. Which it isn’t. Well, at least, to the racist white cop (or me)…it’s not! LOL.
Each person measures what is “light skinned” for a black person differently. I agree with you though. Light skinned black to me is white skinned, tannish or yellow-ish brown. Anything that doesn’t fit that criteria is fairly dark to me.
Per Beyonce/Halle’s complexions, do know that most light skinned black women in the business are usually bronzed and tanned to look darker in their media depicitions. They are almost always much lighter in person. Beyonce, Faith Evans, Chante Moore, Rihanna, Tisha Campbell and Alicia Keys, for example, are almost as white as a ghost, in person!!
Also, Jasmine, the 10% figure (in terms of how many black people can be considered light skinned) defintely correlates with reality.
For every “light skinned” black American I’ve seen, there were 9 darker ones.
This may account for some of the light skin fetishism/favoritism among many black Americans. Lighter skin is less common. But then again, one can say the same about someone who is jet black-complexioned.
Seems all the confusion here stems from the lack of appreciation of the meaning of “Black”. When we, black people, in Africa say “black people” we do not mean dark skinned people…we mean 100% Africa, 100% unmixed with other races…and 100% Ubuntu. That said, in America, and the rest of the Western world, black is generalized to cover anyone who is not white and has some African ethnicity in heir history/bloodline.
If you look at all the so called ‘most beautiful’ black women…none of them fit our (African) definition of us (blacks), they are mixed race individuals born of mixed parents who most likely, and quite often have white heritage. None of the women covered on this blog are blacks as per African blackness…they are mixed race mulatos.
Halle is being worshipped because of her white beauty.
Americans hate blackwomen they would never call us beautiful as our african selves.
erzulieredeyes said:
Halle is being worshipped because of her white beauty.
Americans hate blackwomen they would never call us beautiful as our african selves.
Menelik replied:
This is simply NOT true! Please look up the pyschoanalytic term REACTION FORMATION and then come back to me.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
ps and which “Americans” are you referring too?
“Menelik Charles
erzulieredeyes said:
Halle is being worshipped because of her white beauty.
Americans hate blackwomen they would never call us beautiful as our african selves.
Menelik replied:
This is simply NOT true! Please look up the pyschoanalytic term REACTION FORMATION and then come back to me.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
ps and which “Americans” are you referring too?”
Yes it is true, Halle is only considered pretty because she is half-white and when white americans look at her they see her white mother’s beauty not her black beauty.
Abagond, I think that’s just an unimpressive photo of Halle. I think she look better with long hair. You can’t say she doesn’t look sultry here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Cvo4jwbe8wE/SSz5PJEMqAI/AAAAAAAABvI/BOi0idUxKVU/s1600-h/halle_berry_1.jpg
Hmmm, then again flipping back between your photo and the one I just posted, it’s obvious she’s had some nose and eye work done.
@ erzulieredeyes
Please look up the pyschoanalytic term REACTION FORMATION and then come back to me. We can better discuss what APPEARS to be the case once you look up the meaning of this term.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
Mynameismyname,
Sorry, I never even saw your comments! This thread didn’t pop up in the “Recent Comments” list until today, and I usually stop going back to them after a couple of days.
I will look for that movie–it sounds interesting!
10% is definitely few, but I think since so many people self-label themselves as light-skinned the numbers are inflated to seem higher. Interesting how jet-black doesn’t get the same treatment, hmm?
I would love to read a book or see a movie about the millions of “dark-skinned” Black women who aren’t “pretty for a dark-skinned girl”, sitting at home without a date, or wishing they were light-skinned. My friends and I are just waiting to be interviewed.
Halle is only considered pretty because she is half-white
Halle’s a lot more than “half white”. I’d say closer to 3/4ths, myself.
Halle looks black to me, didnt’ even know she was half-white when I first saw her at all…but I agree she’s not the most beautiful “black” woman
“When I think “light-skinned”, I think of someone who is never actually brown, even when tanned in the sun. (So, Halle Berry wouldn’t count as light-skinned, but I think Beyonce might.) ”
what is with peopel saying beyonce is lightskinned to me, she is just brown. Going by most of her pictures she looks brown to me. Alicia keys to me is light skinned. http://blogs.wayne.edu/angelique/files/2009/04/beyonce-knowles-stars-300a101006.jpg
nothing wrong with light-skinned, but to me its overplayed in the media, brown skin shimmers like none other, its gorgeous.
Menelik Charles
@ erzulieredeyes
Please look up the pyschoanalytic term REACTION FORMATION and then come back to me. We can better discuss what APPEARS to be the case once you look up the meaning of this term.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England”
Please learn to read.
Halle is only considered pretty because she is half white. When white people look at Halle they call her beautiful because they see her white mother’s beauty not her black beauty.
That’s why we have so many light skinned near-white looking women being called pretty and dark women being called ugly. Its because of white supremacist views of beauty.
“Hollywood seems to push Halle Berry as the height of black beauty. I mean, she is a black beauty, of course, but I cannot help but think that what they see in her is not her black beauty but her white beauty; that she is just another piece of their effort to push a sort of beauty that most certainly is white.”
This is the truth, they are not looking at halle as a beautiful black woman, they are looking at her white mother’s face when they see Halle and not her black beauty.
Maria:
I have deleted several long-winded comments on what Latino means. Not that there is anything wrong with that topic in and of itself, but it has nothing to do with the threads on Halle Berry and Tiger Woods where you have posted these comments.
You are coming dangerously close to my definition of a spammer.
Please review my comment policy:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
Menelik,
I looked up reaction formation. Very interesting….
@Shani,
I’m glad you found the phrase interesting. Perhaps you’d like to consider it in light of Abagond’s recent survey on the most attractive male post.
I’m mean, an Asian gentleman has romped home with a majority of the votes! Not Black men! Not mixed-raced men! Not white men, either but one of maybe two Asian men mentioned!
Consider, if you will, the fact that both Black women and Asian men are deemed the least attractive dating candidates (rightly or wrongly) and take into account who largely Black women here have voted numero uno of men.
The phrase is REACTION FORMATION.
Menelik Charles
London England
I don’t know about you but Gabriel Union is smokin hot! I can’t stop looking/thinking about her.
^^^ Interesting handle.
I’m going to leave the color discussion alone. I’ll just say that as a brown skinned girl (or dark skinned depending on who you talk to) with long hair my sister and I have been bewildering anomalies since . . . as long as I can remember. A lot of expectations and assumptions go into skin color . . . for the ignorant.
@It’s all: I’m a heterosexual female and I agree . . . maybe not about the thinking. lol She’s amazing looking. However, I’ve loved Gabrielle Union since I was like 12/13 when “Bring It On” came out. She was a brown skin girl w/ dimples and (what I thought) long hair. Pre-teen me said “Yay! Someone like me!
@Menelik
Consider, if you will, the fact that both Black women and Asian men are deemed the least attractive dating candidates (rightly or wrongly) and take into account who largely Black women here have voted numero uno of men.
I suggest you read the comments on that one. Probably not the best example for your argument.
Menelik,
I was very surprised Oh Ji ho won, but it was said there was a link to another site where outsiders could have voted to skew the results, but you do have a point in relating it to the “most gorgeous man” results.
I just got off a blog showing halle berry with her hair curly, not flatironed. And some of the comments are ridiculous. One person posted a comment that said, “Now she just looks like a regular black girl.” As if something is wrong with looking black. I remember when she was pregnant over a year ago and she had her long hair and went out with it curly and not flat ironed and there were some comments about her looking too black. So to the person who said that what whites see in Halle is her white beauty, you are correct based on the blogs that I’ve read about how she looks when she doesn’t straighten her hair. It seems as if when Halle shows her blackness (as in curly hair) it seems to offend some white people. I guess they would be offended after putting her on a pedestal for her to turn around and slap them in the face with her “blackness.” LOL
Halle Berry is pretty but I cant say she is the most beautiful woman in the world. So far Vanity is the most beautiful woman I have ever seen.
Shani said:
It seems as if when Halle shows her blackness (as in curly hair) it seems to offend some white people. I guess they would be offended after putting her on a pedestal for her to turn around and slap them in the face with her “blackness.”
Menelik replies:
Sista Shani, the notion of reaction formation still holds water here. The point is NOT that Halle Berry is too Black but that white people are TOO white i.e. Halle Berry “looking Black” makes them feel white…or uncomfortable.
Anything which makes whites feel uncomfortable in their whiteness is rejected, marginalised or discriminated against. Cinderella & the Ugly Sisters is a near perfect example of all these factors in play.
If Cinderella was a real person, she’d suffer from an inferiority complex on account of her mistreatment. The Ugly Sisters envied Cinderella and attempted to mimic here natural beauty with dramatic results (see the various artistic images of the dreadful duo).
Remember, of all the races of women white women seek to mimic most, dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women come out on top!
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
@Shani
you couldn’t give me the link for the blog on Halle Berry, could you?
thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
http://justjared.buzznet.com/2010/01/05/halle-berry-sports-a-new-hairstyle/
I posted the link to the most recent one. If you type in “halle berry curly do” or “halle berry curly fro” into the search engine a bunch of blogs will come up.
Are you saying that “feeling white” is their insecurity? If so, then is systematic racism used as a defense mechanism?
Wow for years i’ve battled with this issue. First of all when i tried to talk to people about it they seem to just look at me like what the hell is she talking about. Or u get the u’re just jealous line.
Im in a totally different culture but i’ve known from a very small age the “power” of being light skinned and having eurocentric features. Black people treated u differently and white people treat u differently.
I always said that the black girls portrayed in the media never really represent a true afrocentric black woman to me. Firstly I wanna say that Halle Berry’s nose is straight as hell and she’s as close to white as any black woman i know.
When i see a dark skinned sista with non-relaxed hair, no weave, a broad nose and thick lips in the media then i will say i see a black beauty. No offense meant, but we’ve been conditioned to think that mixed and closest thing to white is what is beautiful in black people.
By the way i live in Jamaica where being a browning, is a big deal and right now there’s an issue in our country where the women are constantly bleaching to have a lighter skin. I hate what slavery has done to our race and im dying for our real emancipation to come. But most of all im sorry for our black men who seem to gravitate the most to the near white features and the white ladies.
that’s my say
Shani said:
Are you saying that “feeling white” is their insecurity? If so, then is systematic racism used as a defense mechanism?
Menelik replied:
yes, white people are insecure in their whiteness, which they percieve as unhealthy and lacking colour. What they’ve done over the centuries (particularly to captive populations like slaves) is convince people of colour that THEY are lacking in whiteness…which is impossible since whiteness itself is an ABSENCE or lack of colour.
The means by which white men have promoted the ‘beauty’ and superiority of whiteness has come in the form of the white female. Their image haunts Black women externally (i.e. via the mass media) and internally (i.e. via the elevation within Black society of light-skinned females like Halle Berry and Beyonce).
The pain dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women feel is every bit as real as that felt by Cinderella who was made to feel worthless by those who, in reality, felt WORTH LESS than she did!
But ultimately, Black women’s pain is based on a false premise; the premise being that white people percieve dark-skin, kinky hair and negroid feature as repulsive. No amount of snide racial remarks can convince me otherwise. It is merely a reaction formation necessary to make themselves feel comfortable in their own whiteness…which they sub-consciously loath!
Menelik Charles
London England
Thanks for your reply, Menelik.
Menelik Charles
Shani said:
Are you saying that “feeling white” is their insecurity? If so, then is systematic racism used as a defense mechanism?
Menelik replied:
yes, white people are insecure in their whiteness, which they percieve as unhealthy and lacking colour. What they’ve done over the centuries (particularly to captive populations like slaves) is convince people of colour that THEY are lacking in whiteness…which is impossible since whiteness itself is an ABSENCE or lack of colour.
The means by which white men have promoted the ‘beauty’ and superiority of whiteness has come in the form of the white female. Their image haunts Black women externally (i.e. via the mass media) and internally (i.e. via the elevation within Black society of light-skinned females like Halle Berry and Beyonce).
The pain dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women feel is every bit as real as that felt by Cinderella who was made to feel worthless by those who, in reality, felt WORTH LESS than she did!
But ultimately, Black women’s pain is based on a false premise; the premise being that white people percieve dark-skin, kinky hair and negroid feature as repulsive. No amount of snide racial remarks can convince me otherwise. It is merely a reaction formation necessary to make themselves feel comfortable in their own whiteness…which they sub-consciously loath!
Menelik Charles
London England”
That’s right whites do look down on us because they feel bad about and hate themselves that’s true.
What I said was the reason whites praise Halle is because they see a white woman (Halle’s mom) when they look at her they don’t see black beauty.
Abagond kinda said it, that he thinks she is praised because they are celberating her white beauty, its true.
Because Halle looks like her mother.
I don’t think Halle looks like her mother. She might look like her white relatives, but not her mother. Her mother isn’t an attractive woman, I must add. On the other hand, Halle isn’t ugly, but there’s something, I don’t know… Generic? – about her. She is pretty, but her face lacks personality.
Angela Bassett is the most beautiful black woman in the world (if you ask me).
As crazy as this sounds (“whites are insecure in their skin, which they percieve as unhealthy and lacking colour”), it could be true. I know I often feel insecure about shade of my skin. Since there’s nothing I can do about it, I don’t think about it much. Still, I can’t help finding dark skinned people more beautiful.
^^^
I agree. Halle’s mother isn’t attractive at all. Halle is much better looking than her. Good example of a little chocolate milk powder changing the flavor of the entire glass of milk! LOL.
And yes, Berry is obviously attractive and does have some modest appeal (as I noted above, a while ago) but overall she’s “nothing THAT special”. Perhaps, she does have a generic quality about her. She’s an ex-beauty queen after all.
Angela Bassett, on the other hand, is a classic beauty. She’s completely natural with it. There’s such a regal, timeless quality to her that goes far beyond her looks. She totally outclasses Berry on every level. There is absolutely no competition behind her and Berry.
I remember Halle when she appeared on some tv show in the late 80’s called Living Dolls. She definitely looks different now. She had a nose job for sure.
It’s hard to find that picture of Halle attractive because of that muffin hairstyle. Even her makeup is so 80s style and outdated in that pic it’s impossible for me to just look at her facial features without being distracted. Her recent pictures look WAY more attractive.
Halle looks much better with shorter hair. She carries it very well.
http://media.onsugar.com/files/ons1/192/1922283/37_2009/7f73d29a4f6e5812_halle-berry.jpg
I think Halle is “cute” more than anything else. I also believe that she is considered so beautiful because she is bi-racial with the emphasis being on her “white” side.
Ebony magazine has held her up as the standard as beauty for years.
“The pain dark-skinned, negroid-featured Black women feel is every bit as real as that felt by Cinderella who was made to feel worthless by those who, in reality, felt WORTH LESS than she did! ”
Really?! I don’t agree with that one bit. I’m not dark but have have experienced the “Cinderella” syndrome by others who put me down because they feel worthless. That has nothing to do with dark or light. It has to do with others inferiority complexes.
Halle, to me, is undeniable pretty. I’ve noticed that if you have a heavier look, you are what is desireable, at least on this blog. She has a very soft, feminine look.
I think Halle has one of those “average pretty girl” looks which makes her so beautiful in the eyes of many. Angela Bassett is absolutely gorgeous, so stunning that she may seem, to many men, completely out of their league. Halle is plainer (though not plain), so she’s better suited to the “girl next door” vibe. We love to uphold that which is average as the standard, because then we (as women) can believe that level is attainable.
Halle does have “girl next door” vibe. At least she had- this pic from the 80s is cute.
On the other hand, I don’t know how majority of black men feel about Halle. Do they find her stunning as much as white men do?
As an actress, she is “just ok”. She can act, but she is more average than excellent, if you ask me.
^^
I agree, Jasmin.
I think Lauren London has the same kind of appeal: that kind of “around the way, girl-next-door” type of cuteness. Although, all around, she’s pretty plain…like Halle.
Angela’s beauty, on the other hand, is almost intimidating. For many men, a woman is a “GOT DAMN!”-type of beautiful will seems out of their league and therefore they don’t approach her in fear of being shut down. A lot of women don’t really know how insecure men truly are.
^^^
The above post is by me, Mynameismyname. Don’t know why it came up under another screen name. Sorry.
Mira,
Every man, black or white, is different when it comes to who and what he finds beautiful. So none of us can truly know if a majority of men find ANY woman to be beautiful. We can guess, we can hypothesize but we will never really know.
I can opine that I think that a lot of the white men who cite Berry as being “so beautiful” do so in a very politically correct way. As if they are trying to demonstrate that because they can call a famous black woman beautiful it shows that they are “not (that) racist!”. That mindset is so sickening.
I won’t critique Berry’s onstage or offstage persona too much because of the backlash I got received earlier in this post but I can agree that she’s not an actress of a very high caliber. I think the shoddy roles that she gets demonstrates this. A lot of times if you’re a hack actress, you get hack work. The Scorseses and Coppolas aren’t going to have you ruin thier work! LOL.
Of course; people are individuals. We all have our personal preferences.
But various lists show men- particularly white men- find Halle Berry really attractive. I don’t know if they include her on the list just to have a token black woman there.
In any case, white men do find her incredibly attractive. At least they say so. Maybe Halle is praised for her white features.
I asked about black men, because they might see her differently. I don’t know if they consider her that attractive.
@mynameismyname
I can opine that I think that a lot of the white men who cite Berry as being “so beautiful” do so in a very politically correct way. As if they are trying to demonstrate that because they can call a famous black woman beautiful it shows that they are “not (that) racist!”.
This. Personal preference aside, but it does look like many white men try to put at least one (but only one) black woman on their “hottest women” list, to show how anti racist they are, I guess.
“I can opine that I think that a lot of the white men who cite Berry as being “so beautiful” do so in a very politically correct way. ”
I think most white men cite as as “the most beautiful black woman” because they don’t know of any others to name beacuse she’s the only one that is fed to mainstream white america again and again. It’s like she’s the “it” girl version of a black woman. When Whitney Houston was in her prime, she was “it,” to alot of men too. Atleast Whitney had talent to back it up though. I love Whitney, still do and always will, she’s a true, classic talent. Especially compared to the crap we got coming out these days. With all due respect, Rihanna to me (sweet girl and sorry about her trauma and all) she isn’t all that to me in terms of looks. She is cute I’ll give that one, but I don’t know that I would call her gorgeous or to be honest. It just like white america puts a seal of approval on certain black women and then white men tend to follow suit on that.
This. Personal preference aside, but it does look like many white men try to put at least one (but only one) black woman on their “hottest women” list, to show how anti racist they are, I guess.
yeah, I had to purchase a copy of maxim once for a project and I looked through it and the only black woman that was in there was Lauren London. The rest were all white and I was suprised because they were truly truly thing. Like real thing. I always knew most white men had a preference for thin bodies but wow they were thin and scantily clad. In contrast in black men’s magazines, they have far more than one or a few non-black women. Even if the majority are black, their number of non-black women far exceeds that of the Maxim, I believe. Why is that?? Are bm innately more accepting of beauty? I doubt it…has anyone noticed this what’s this about?
But various lists show men- particularly white men- find Halle Berry really attractive. I don’t know if they include her on the list just to have a token black woman there.
That’s exactly it. If the lists were all white, they would look racist. But in a competition between Halle and a white woman touted to be beautiful (e.g. Angelina Jolie, Scarlett Johansson), the white woman wins.
In any case, white men do find her incredibly attractive. At least they say so. Maybe Halle is praised for her white features.
Yes. The most beautiful black woman to white people/men is the one with the most stereotypical Eurocentric features. Beyonce has joined the ranks as well; I heard today that Beyonce is a “beauty icon amongst the ranks of Marilyn Monroe.” Yeah, seriously.
Though I’m not a Halle fan and prefer Angela Bassett in terms of personality, I don’t view her as average. Angela has more of a harsher or masculine look, to me. Halle has more softer lines facially. This is not because one is lighter than the other because they are not THAT far off in shade. She does have beautiful skin, though. I think her talent trumps her appearance.
Halle is not the most beautiful in the world, but who is?
As an entertainer, or a person in general, what’s is wrong with having a universal look? I think that is great! Whitney Houston was/is absolutely gorgeous – and no one can say it’s because she’s dark OR light – she’s in between. She is just a classic beauty.
Lauren London and Gabrielle Union are very girl-next-door. But what’s wrong with having a very sweet, innocent and beautiful look?
I am starting to believe Halle’s publicist is feeding all of this “most beautiful woman” hype to the media. At any rate, Halle does have a generic look. No one feature stands out on her face, which makes her average but pretty. Women can relate to her and she looks like someone you can be related to.
For example, how many times have you heard about a light skin woman with short hair being told that she looks like Halle. I’ve heard it numerous times (about other women) which makes her look relatable because women can strive to look like her. On the other hand, women like Sophia Loren and Pam Grier in their prime, Kenya Moore, Angelina Jolie, Lauryn Hill before she went crazy all have a unique, special type of beauty that most women would not be able to achieve which makes their beauty sort of intimidating to some women and maybe even men. Halle’s beauty is not as intimidating. That’s my analysis for today.
Islandgirl,
People say I’m the “girl next door” so of course I love that look.
I just think us “girls next door” would have to put in extra effort (for a special occasion or something) to look “stunning”, whereas someone like Angela Bassett or Tyra Banks wouldn’t.
Jasmin,
I don’t think you would! You’re naturally pretty and that is a lot more desireable, to me. You’ll probably age really well too with your innocent, fresh looks. I love the girl-next-door look!
Islandgirl,
That’s what I tell all my friends! Over the summer I went to a mini-middle school reunion party, and everyone says I look the same as I did in 8th grade (just more body)! You look really young too–I’m pretty sure we aren’t the same age but I would guess we were just by looking at you. I always tell people we’ll look young and fresh while they get old and wrinkly.
i don’t get the girl-next-door thing. What makes someone girl next-door material? I don’t know why maybe its because I just don’t know what they’re talking about. I just think Halle is pretty, I don’t see her as girl next door though. Just pretty.
There’s nothing wrong in “girl next door look”. I must admit I’m more of a tomboy, but girl next door vibe is sometimes more feminine than “famme fatale” look.
Halle is a beautiful woman and I do believe one of the secrets of her success is the fact men find her attractive, while women can identify with her. A friend of mine looks a bit like her, and she is a white girl. There’s a Serbian TV host, nicknamed “Serbian Halle Berry” because she looks (a bit) like the famous actress.
http://www.pressonline.rs/upload/boxImageData/2008/10/07/27352/l2-400-2.jpg
On the other hand, it is true white men tend to include Halle, or maybe Beyonce or Rihanna- but only them. Yes, this could partly be because there aren’t that many black celebrities white people know about- which is also an interesting subject to think about (why aren’t there more black celebrities?) But then again, I can’t help noticing tokenism when it comes to this kind of lists. For some reason, Halle Barry looks like an acceptable choice for a token girl.
(White) women are also guilty of this kind of tokenism. They seem to put Denzel Washington on their lists often, and on those lists he’s usually the only black guy.
The “girl next door” look is very appealing! Just as much as the “vixen” or the “classic beauty”.
Of course, Halle’s PR people trump up the whole “most beautiful woman” angle! LOL. Just like Brad Pitt and George Clooney’s people feed the “sexiest man in America” angle to the mainstream media. Shoot, it’s not uncommon for some male stars’ PR team to feed shirtless pics to the press. (I’m looking at you, Mr. McCoughnay!). Remember these entertainers’ job is to entertain, so they work hard to give us what we want!
Rihanna never was that attractive to me. And she’s not a “sweet girl” in real life but that is a whole different story.
White men WHO ARE NOT INTO BLACK WOMAN “prefer” black woman who look more white. Why wouldn’t they? They want the women who they are not into (black women) to look like the ones who they are into (white women). Now, for the white men who like or are open to black women, it’s the opposite effect.
Natasha was so right. These white editors throw Halle, Beyonce or whatever vapid black “it” girl for a little PC, ” not-too-different” variety but don’t fool yourself, they are not hardly the first choice.
Mira,
It’s hard to say whether “black men” feel the same exact way about HB as these white admirers you mentioned. See, there’s too many different types of black men. Some share the same Eurocentric standard of beauty as many (or most) of their white counterparts. Yet, these types of black men would most likely be more interested in a “Kim Kardashian” than a “Halle Berry” anyway. Some have a more universal idea of beauty, hence the multiracial makeup of black mens magazines. Some have a more “round the way” idea of beauty, hence why the Serenas, Fantasias, Monicas, etc. give a lot of love from the “brothers”. Of course, there’s many other varities of black male ideas of beauty. But they are very diverse, nonetheless.
@mynameismyname
Natasha was so right. These white editors throw Halle, Beyonce or whatever vapid black “it” girl for a little PC, ” not-too-different” variety
I am afraid this is true. The key is: attractive, but not-too-different. They want familiar stuff, with a little PC thrown in. On the other hand, I can’t help but think many of those lists are genuine: Halle does seem to have something that makes her attractive.
My question about black men, however, was because I assumed most of the lists I know of were made by white people- or majority of white people.
I wasn’t trying to put all black men into a single category, nor to imply they are all the same and have same preferences. (I hope it didn’t sound like I was doing it). I was just wondering if Halle would top lists made by, say, magazine targeted to black men. There must be lists like that somewhere on the net, but I am not sure how to find them.
Mira:
Smooth magazine lists the top 100 women at the end of each year. Mostly video vixens and rap guys’ girlfriends, mostly black and Latina women. Here is the top 11 for 2009:
1. Maliah
2. Deelishis*
3. Angel Lola Luv*
4. Vida Guerra*
5. Coco (married to Ice-T)
6. Melyssa Ford*
7. Esther Baxter*
8. Jessica Rabbit
9. Amber Rose
10. Nikki B.
11. Buffie the Body*
* = has a post on this blog
The editor of that magazine, by the way, is a black woman.
Here are the top ten women on this blog according to hits over the past 30 days:
1. Toccara Jones
2. Bria Myles
3. Lauren London
4. Vilayna Lasalle
5. Jill Marie Jones
6. Kenya Moore
7. Adriana Lima
8. Omotola
9. Nia Long
10. Melyssa Ford
11. Deelishis
Deelishis gets almost ten times more hits than Halle Berry.
More on Smooth magazine here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/01/15/smooth-magazine/
I see. Thanks for the info.
I don’t think white people even know about many of these women. Plus, some are way to “thick” for an average white guy taste.
lol at Jasmin! That’s good, though. The thing that I like about girl-next-door looks is that are naturally sweet/innocent looking, but can be versitile. If you want to vamp it up, line your eyes a little heavier, more mascara and throw on a darker lipstick. Put more body in your hair, and you are transformed into a vixen.
But when you are caught, and want to get out of it, wipe off all of the makeup, bat your eyes and they are putty in your hands.lol
Peanut,
Girl next door is wholesome and innocent look. For example, Melissa Ford would have a hard time pulling off this look. J Lo could couldn’t pull it off either, though she tries with paler, softer makeup.
Growing up, I was always under the impression that the epitome of attractiveness for women/girls is having the combination of innocence with and sexy. I guess I was wrong.
All types of looks are good – but this is my favorite.
i guess i look too innocent or that’s what people tell me. i’m really not though.
Mira,
I get you!
Abagond’s list of the women who get the most hits on this very blog illustrate my point. That pretty much show the range of various black male tastes. It’s more reprensative of that reality than the Smooth magazine list, I think. The ladies on the Smooth list are pretty trashy. A lot of guys would “get” with them, but not take them home to meet their mama!
Islandgirl,
I agree. Melyssa Ford has a look that’s too sexual to give off a geniune “girl next door” vibe. Same with J.Lo. You also have to consider that neither Ford or Lopez are particulary attractive without makeup. J.Lo used to get her makeup retouched every four hours and traveled with an army of hair stylists so lets not use her as a symbol of TRUE beauty. Like Halle and every other celeb that gets mentioned on here, Ford/J.Lo’s “beauty” is created. You’re looking at the wonderful work of her makeup artists, stylists, hair technicans and airbrushers when you look at her “pretty” pics.
@mynameismyname:
I get what you’re saying. A lot of so-called beauties are manufactured. I know of women like these celebrities and they look hot/sexy…but with all that make-up and whatnot. Once the make-up is off, it’s another story. To me, a beautiful woman is beautiful without all those enhancements. Too many Hollywood beauties are “fake”.
Mynameismyname said:
“Abagond’s list of the women who get the most hits on this very blog illustrate my point. That pretty much show the range of various black male tastes. It’s more reprensative of that reality than the Smooth magazine list, I think. The ladies on the Smooth list are pretty trashy. A lot of guys would “get” with them, but not take them home to meet their mama!”
I agree with that: that the list of women with the most hits on this blog seems much truer-to-life than the Smooth list or the Beyonce-Berry-Rihanna Black Beauty triumvirate.
Kenya Moore is a good example: neither Smooth nor Hollywood is going to push her in front of our eyeballs – she probably will not model for Smooth and has no film coming out. But that does not mean that there are not plenty of people – like me – who think she is way better looking than Halle Berry or some video vixen du jour.
@abagond:
I would kill to look like Kenya Moore. In fact, many of the beautiful bw posted on your blog are super gorgeous. I would kill just to look like them.
You are beautiful the way you are.
@Mira:
Aww, thank you. You’re so sweet.
Okay, so I’m exaggerating, but I would certainly love to look like these beautiful ladies.
yeah Leigh, you are very pretty.
i have a question though, why is it it seems more women posts pictures on here than men??
@peanut:
Thank you! I wouldn’t know it since a lot of people think I resemble Lucy Liu. Grrr.
Maybe men are a bit picture shy. Who knows? Anyway, I was hesitant about posting a pic of myself in the first place. Lots of crazies out there.
I just want to leave a little comment to say THANK YOU for this awesome discussion. I’m just some random white girl (there are varying shades of white too!) who found this blog entry and I read every single comment (no lie!). Unlike the comments on most blogs, yours were all really thoughtful and I loved getting your insight into a topic I rarely think about. I love the varying opinions because they were all insightful.
I’ll also just leave this little bit of info: I hadn’t heard of 90% of the celebrities mentioned here – but I can say the same about white celebrities because I’m one of those insane people who never watches TV or reads magazines. I checked out Google Images for many of those mentioned on the Smooth list and list for this blog based on hits and was surprised at how sexual all the images were.
Thanks again for an enlightening discussion that took up a great deal of my day. You guys rock!
@leigh204
Thank you! I wouldn’t know it since a lot of people think I resemble Lucy Liu. Grrr.
I don’t think you look like Lucy Liu. At all. She is not an ugly woman, but I don’t think she’s pretty.
You are a pretty girl. Actually, all the girls here are (well, at least those who display their images).
@peanut
i have a question though, why is it it seems more women posts pictures on here than men??
This is interesting question. I have no idea. I take gravatar as any other forum avatar. For some reason, I always choose pictures of male celebrities I like for my forum avatars, including this one. That’s Gary Oldman in his younger days. I post on various blogs and I don’t feel comfortable sharing my pic, even though I have a few on my own blog. Guys do seem to be shy when it comes to posting their images. I wonder why.
ooo abagond! i think you should do a post on latino men and black women. seriously, i get approached by more latino men than white and black. I think you should do a post on that. (has nothing to do with what anyone was talking about)
Kenya Moore is gorgeous! I too, would kill to look like her.
^^^
I would kill to GET WITH her.
I agree with that: that the list of women with the most hits on this blog seems much truer-to-life than the Smooth list or the Beyonce-Berry-Rihanna Black Beauty triumvirate.
Rihanna? Who is claiming her as a beauty? I mean, she’s not terrible looking, but what’s her appeal? Besides pale skin and a trendy haircut?
Also, leigh, I agree that you are very pretty. I always think that every time I see a post of yours.
@Natasha W:
*blushes*
I co-sign Natasha’s statement regarding Leigh.
I just saw one of the most beautiful dark skin sistas I’ve ever seen working at a local DSW store. She’s be worthy of abagond’s black beauty of the day sight. I don’t like staring at people but I was turning my head completely as I was walking out the door. Yeah, not all beautiful black women are light skinned. I’d love to see the darker ones get more representation in the media.
Natasha,
Rihanna ain’t no universal beauty. LOL. It’s the mainstream media who has recently pushed her as some type of sex symbol. A lot of that has to do with her recent crossover success. She’s a “flavor of the month” so the sheep follow.
Tulio,
The most beautiful women are actually AROUND us, not in front of our eyes from magazine covers, TV shows, etc. That sighting at the DSW store is proof of that. Yet, it irks me that every time a black woman’s beauty is discussed, her specific complexion just has to be mentioned. Why? You don’t do it to white or other non-white women, so why color-catergorize black women like that? Is it just a cultural thing?
I only mentioned her dark skin in light of the fact that we were discussing Beyonce, Halle Berry and Rihanna being held up as examples of beautiful black women.
wow, Leigh you’re very popular.lol
I would kill to look like Rachel, the host of Carribean Rhythms.
She is another former pageant queen.
@idlandgirl
I can honestly say that all the women who put their images as avatars here are pretty. That includes you, too. And other girls. Guys, on the other hand, don’t like to post their photos. It’s interesting.
But it makes me sad to see (I presume) healthy, beautiful, intelligent women who are not satisfied with their physical appearance. It’s all because of media. Even if you don’t buy white ideas of beauty, non-white celebrities you see on TV and magazines are celebrities. We are real women. Kenya Moore is a stunning woman, but girls, you are beautiful the way you are. If you were celebrities, people would want to look like you.
I spent my teenage years wanting to look different, much different. It took me years to gain at least a little confidence. So I know how you feel.
PS-Wanting more black celebrities is a good thing. I want the idea of black and other non-white women as unattractive to be challenged. And changed. But real women should never forget their beauty.
I never found Rachel from BET to be that pretty. Her ditiziness made her even more unattractive to me.
I agree, Mira, too many women or at least the women who comment on here, put too much emphasis on celebrity beauty. How many times do we have to tell you that most of that stuff isn’t real?
Mira,
Thanks for your comments! You seem very understanding. For me though, it’s not the media who brings me down. Actually it’s the opposite. Things are quite easy for me in regards to industry, but real, average people is who I’ve struggled with.
Seems I could turn a modeling agencies head, but not black men. It’s weird. But it’s cool.:)
I don’t know if I should go into detail, but it has been a struggle.
How did you want to look different?
nyname,
Oh, I think Rachel is gooorgeouus! Always have. I love her coloring and she has such a pretty face. She glows.
Ironically, I have never thought Keyna Moore was that attractive. She looks a little like Natalie Cole. I think she has a good image, maybe a good figure, nice hair and a pageant carriage. Which is all good.
But I guess I base beauty on if someone could look good, naturally.
I can honestly say that all the women who put their images as avatars here are pretty. That includes you, too. And other girls. Guys, on the other hand, don’t like to post their photos. It’s interesting.
I agree, Mira. The women here are beautiful. It’s kind of odd, considering that all people can’t be goodlooking, right?
. But Jasmin has a cute, fresh, spunky look, islandgirl has a certain mystique, and Lynette has a timeless, elegance.
I do agree that the media is to blame. With the help of people who idolize the appearance of celebrities, it pushes this idea into women’s heads that whoever they are, whatever they look like, it is not enough. That they could always be improved and someone out there is outshining them.
I agree, Mira, too many women or at least the women who comment on here, put too much emphasis on celebrity beauty. How many times do we have to tell you that most of that stuff isn’t real?
mynameismyname, I try to tell people this! There is way too much plastic surgery, around the clock make-up and hair styling, top of the line trainers and personal stylists, and airbrushing for me to take celebrities’ appearances seriously and compare them to everyday people. Anyone, and I mean anyone, could look fabulous if they had all of those perks. And yet many everyday people surpass the beauty of celebrities, in my eyes.
Things are quite easy for me in regards to industry, but real, average people is who I’ve struggled with.
Seems I could turn a modeling agencies head, but not black men. It’s weird. But it’s cool.:)
I don’t know if I should go into detail, but it has been a struggle.
islandgirl, I’d like to hear more about this. Is it because you are thin?
Lol, thanks you all, but I don’t dislike the way I look (far from it
). If I were badly burned in a fire and needed reconstructive surgery, I wouldn’t mind looking like Kenya Moore, but I don’t think I’m hideous or anything. I feel like we’re so primed in society to think self-criticism = self hatred that we can sometimes suppress people’s need for an outlet, even if it’s for something trivial. (I don’t consider this an outlet, but I’m guessing some do.)
I hate my feet–they are hideous! But I don’t need a pity party or some hugs to stop me from totally hating myself. Let’s not be so quick to tell others how they feel/should feel about themselves.
Note: I don’t hate myself…I realize that sentence doesn’t read well.
Natasha,
I love that you called me spunky! That picture is from 2 Christmases ago, I need to change it, but I forgot my Gravatar password.
@Jasmin,
I wasn’t really talking about you personally, or trying imply you hate yourself. Is that how it sounded? Ouch.
I simply wanted to say there’s nothing really special about celebrities… And that real women (like us) are beautiful the way they are. Maybe I took this too far. Now when I re-read my previous comments, it did sound a bit… annoying? Patronizing? It wasn’t my intention.
Or maybe I am just harsh on myself; I know I had my share of low self esteem and this sort of situation remind me of it? Could be.
@islandgirl
How did you want to look different?
I wanted to be taller, thinner and not this pale. It sounds trivial, and I guess it is. But tell this to my 15 year old self.
Seems I could turn a modeling agencies head, but not black men. It’s weird. But it’s cool.:)
I am sure there are some (black male) people who would find you- or any other thin black woman- more that attractive. Just because a woman doesn’t fit rigid beauty standards of her culture, there are still members of the same culture (and other cultures) who find her attractive. After all, it’s always better to be loved and admired by only one person- the person you love- than to be admired by everybody except the one you love.
@Natasha W
Thanks for the compliment! It put a smile on my face.
Mira,
I don’t think you are annoying, lol. I just think some people (not anyone here in particular) want to say, “You’re beautiful, love yourself!”, but if a woman says she’s the finest thing ever, then she “thinks she’s all that.” So from some people it comes off patronizing, since they seem to get a kick out of having pity for others.
New gravatar! Hopefully it shows up.
Well, by re-reading what I wrote I realized my posts were a bit questionable. I still believe what I wrote (real life women should not think celebrities are that better looking); but using real life examples (this site’s visitors) wasn’t the smartest idea, I guess.
PS-I still see the old gravatar.
I know, it says it’ll take 5 or 10 minutes to change.
I’d like to be about 2-3 inches taller than I am now. Other than that, I’m pretty satisfied with what I have. Still, Kenya Moore is gorgeous in my eyes. Yeah, she has all this maintenance stuff at her disposal, but I like how she looks. As Jasmin mentioned earlier, I wouldn’t mind looking like her.
Jasmin,
I love that picture! You’re even prettier than I thought.
o.k., that might not read well. I meant I thought you were pretty before, but I think you are even moreso.
@islandgirl:
Aw, I think Jasmin knows what you mean.
You’re also pretty, my dear.
There is something irresistible about Kenya Moore, I admit it. I remember her in “Trois”. She’s such a beautiful woman. Definitely one of those “I wouldn’t mind looking like her”. I’m just saying I don’t like to think about celebrities that way. (On the other hand, I have no problems being attracted to male celebrities
)
Kenya Moore reminds me of Natalie Cole. Eerily so, actually.
Lol, Islandgirl, I know what you meant. Thanks for the compliment!
By the way, is your avatar picture a headshot? I know I’ve already told you, but I really like it!
Funny how I feel like I “know” so many of the regulars, even though we’ve never met!
frustrated guy says,
Shouldn’t the obvious white fanfare for Halle Berry be viewed as a positive sign? After all, it seems like not so long ago white people considered it taboo to publicly express attraction for any woman of African descent. Perhaps the success of Halle, Beyonce, and others should be regarded as a stage in the liberalization of beauty standards. Maybe the Kenya Moores of the world will start to gain international appreciation not so long from now too.
laromana say,
When American media/society STOPS LIMITING the expression of Black beauty to Halle/Beyonce maybe a larger diversity of Black women will be acknowledged for their beauty, too.
yes i agree laramona, i want the chocolate sisters, the caramel sisters, the yellow skinned sisters, the milk chocolate sisters, the onyx colored, charcoal, ebony, peanut butter, butterscotch and all the different colors of bw to be represented in the medi, if we didnt’ favor only one group, then things would be much better for all people .
o.k.
Mira,
Sorry that you thought that about yourself. I’m sure you looked totally different than your perception. Pale skin can be beautiful if you protect it. And from what I gather, you have a great figure. One that most men would like. It’s tough having these insecurities when your young because thats when your identity is formed.
Natasha,
To make a long story longer.lol In high school, I was teased mercilesly by a group of black girls. Told me that I was skinny, tooth pick, 12 year old, I ‘m not a real woman blah, blah, blah. Some black guys joined in which was even more hurtful. Really damaged my self-esteem. In college, everything changed. I entered a pageant and won and was successful in the pageant circuit. Several years later, became a NFL cheerleader and modeled in NYC. I found a world that was inviting and I was accepted. They treated me the exact opposite than what I was programmed to believe by those other people. So when I say that for me, it’s not the media or industry but average people that are harsh, that’s what I mean.
(Some) black guys only reduce women into parts (which is normally a butt). So when you don’t measure up to that one part (or maybe two) they can be brutal. When I first viewed Abagond’s blog, it infuriated me because he reminded me of one of those guys. I can tell you all kinds of stories about Smooth Magazine and black urban lines that would disgust you. They fall into this category, too.
Jasmin,
Yes it is. And yes, it is funny how it seems we know each other.lol
@ islandgirl
Mira,
Sorry that you thought that about yourself. I’m sure you looked totally different than your perception. Pale skin can be beautiful if you protect it. And from what I gather, you have a great figure. One that most men would like.
This is also cultural. Trust me, men in my culture don’t find this figure appealing. Some do, of course, but majority don’t. Especially young men (and women), the one you have to be around while growing up (in school, for example).
I have nice skin (eh, the skin itself, not its colour), but that’s mainly because I don’t use any cosmetic products and I stay away from the sun. I know it makes me pale, but I also look a bit younger. On a side note, I do believe white women tend to age worse than black women in part because of the sun; it makes your skin age faster.
It’s tough having these insecurities when your young because thats when your identity is formed.
This. It’s not really about how you look or what people think about you. I don’t particularly care if people like me or not, or find me beautiful or not. Still, the way people see you can shape your identity. Yes, even stupid things like being teased in school.
(Some) black guys only reduce women into parts (which is normally a butt). So when you don’t measure up to that one part (or maybe two) they can be brutal.
My experience says most of the men are like this (reducing women into parts). My culture likes thin women (no butt!) with large breasts. Since it’s usually impossible to have such a figure, they choose a girl to be thin, even if it means smaller breasts.
When I first viewed Abagond’s blog, it infuriated me because he reminded me of one of those guys.
And I was surprised to see a man celebrate thick women. You have to understand it’s not something I see in my culture, not at all. This only shows how you (well, me) can’t fully escape insecurities, even as a grown up, (reasonably) intelligent and mature woman.
“White men WHO ARE NOT INTO BLACK WOMAN “prefer” black woman who look more white. Why wouldn’t they? They want the women who they are not into (black women) to look like the ones who they are into (white women). Now, for the white men who like or are open to black women, it’s the opposite effect.”
I’m so sick of this.
It sounds alot like the “if he wanted long hair and eurocentric features (wth is that anyways?) he would of chosen a white woman”.
It’s like me saying, if I wanted a white man with dark hair and eyes, i’d go for a black man!
Why does a man have to be with a dark skinned black woman with stereotypical black features to be genuin in his attraction for black women?
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe most people prefer the ‘inbetween look’ in black women, and women in general? and is that so bad?
Why do we have to be nasty to one person in order to uplift the other?
And do you even realize when you do that, that you are shooting yourself in the foot?
If you want to see more dark skinned black women in the entertainment industry, putting down lighter skinned black women is not the way to go.
I am tired of the constant competition between darker and lighter skinned women.
We are all black women at the end of the day, let’s support one another.
@L
It’s like me saying, if I wanted a white man with dark hair and eyes, i’d go for a black man!
But isn’t… Isn’t that partly true? If one person has a “type” (preference), isn’t it logical for this type to include all the people, regardless of race, who share similar features?
I do prefer dark haired, dark eyed men. I am not really into pale guys with blue and green eyes or blond hair. While I never met any black men (so I can’t judge based on personal experience), I do think I am attracted to them. Isn’t this logical for me, and not for a (white) woman who likes blond, blue eyed guys?
On the other hand:
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe most people prefer the ‘inbetween look’ in black women, and women in general? and is that so bad?
I do believe it’s true. Hence all that “mixed people are sexy” stereotype. Mixed people often have “in between look”, and so do light skinned black people or dark Caucasian people. I think that’s the look that many people consider to be very, very attractive.
“Why do we have to be nasty to one person in order to uplift the other?
And do you even realize when you do that, that you are shooting yourself in the foot?
If you want to see more dark skinned black women in the entertainment industry, putting down lighter skinned black women is not the way to go.
I am tired of the constant competition between darker and lighter skinned women.
We are all black women at the end of the day, let’s support one another.”
L, I couldn’t agree with you more! Putting one group of people down is not how you progress.
Also, how many black men like white women who have more ’sterotypically’ black characteristics? Kim Kardashian, all the white women in Smooth Magazine, Angelina Jolie (because of her lips) ect.
…I do believe it’s true. Hence all that “mixed people are sexy” stereotype. Mixed people often have “in between look”
My SO always reminds me that studies have found that mixed race and facial/physical symmetry correlate, thus those of mixed race are more likely to be considered physically attractive. As well as genetic diversity increasing health. He thinks our kids will be superhuman.
islandgirl,
Yours is an interesting story. I tend to find thin women very beautiful and have only recently discovered they also suffer from body issues caused by negative reactions to their figure. It seems no one is immune to these kind of insecurities.
Oh, here’s one study, for anyone who is interested:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200512/mixed-race-pretty-face
I don’t know, Angelina looks like Jon Voight to me. Especially her lips. He is her father if you ask me.
Islandgirl,
It’s unfortunate that you had to deal with such pettiness when you were younger, but I have a lot of respect for you for not letting those experiences make you negative towards all thicker women, darker-skinned women, etc. Most people would use that to generalize their prejudices toward another group, so I think it takes a lot of maturity to not let the actions of a few color your thoughts.
Side note: You were an NFL cheerleader and pageant queen? Details, please! (If you feel like sharing.) That sounds so exciting and fun. I’ve never had enough interest or talent to do cheerleading-type activities, but it seems like it’d be fun to try.
@frustrated guy
Well, he is old now, but when he was younger, his lips were full. Not as full as Angelina’s, but the shape was the same (I think). Also, she looks like him. I do believe he is her biological father.
But this doesn’t mean she isn’t mixed. He could be mixed, who knows?
http://filmmakermagazine.com/webexclusives/uploaded_images/Midnight_Cowboy-738247.jpg
http://www.members.tripod.com/~Monkees23/jvoight/gunsmoke.jpg
It’s possible Angelina had those pouty lips from her father.
Here’s a pic of both parents back in the day.
http://www.harpersbazaar.com/cm/harpersbazaar/images/marcheline-bertrand-de-91307743.jpg
Jasmin,
Thank you! There is no reason to be negative toward dark or thicker women because they didn’t do anything to me. It was those specific group that were hateful. That wouldn’t be right. That’s why I have a problem with some people who hate or dislike an entire group of people based on past experiences with one or two members of that group.
They were/are very wonderful experiences. I like to share my story because moreso than cool experiences, it is an example of GOD’s redemption and restoration and love for those, including me, who have been treated unkindly. HE rewards those who have been oppressed in some way.
I didn’t have a background in cheerleading, either. Or even dance. I heard an announcement on the radio and Something told me to try out. Over two hundred girls auditioned and they narrowed down during the coarse of six cuts. Basically, if you’d ever watched the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders “Making the Team”, that’s exactly how it was. Speaking of, there is a girl a couple of seasons ago who looked just like you! She ended up making the team.
Natasha,
That study is very interesting! So, I take it that you are in a interracial relationship? That’s great! If you’re happy. Your children should have a very interesting experience. They sould have completly different and better experiences than Halle Berry’s had or any other biracial in her era. I’ve read that in school, whites didn’t accept her and accused her of stuffing the ballot box after winning homecoming queen. But some blacks didn’t either.
True, true. She looks like both of her parents.
Oh wow, Angelina’s mother was so beautiful. I can see where she gets her looks from.
From what I have read about Angelina Jolie, she has Native American on her mother’s side.
That study is very interesting! So, I take it that you are in a interracial relationship? That’s great! If you’re happy. Your children should have a very interesting experience. They sould have completly different and better experiences than Halle Berry’s had or any other biracial in her era. I’ve read that in school, whites didn’t accept her and accused her of stuffing the ballot box after winning homecoming queen. But some blacks didn’t either.
islandgirl, yes, my SO and love of my life is of Swedish/Norwegian descent; in other words, white. I am very happy. He is all I’ve ever wanted in a man — intelligent, empathetic, committed, open-minded, not to mention, very handsome (6′3″, slim and toned, good bone structure… and he says he’s the lucky one.).
Hopefully our future children (they do not yet exist, but will soon
) will have positive experiences. We’re not deluded in thinking that discrimination does not exist, but we’re hopeful… I didn’t know that about Halle. I wonder how appearing to be “fully black” changed her experience and perspective.
Natahsa,
woo hoo! Good for you! Sounds like a great guy (and fine,too)lol It’s good that you did not limit yourself. I think you miss out on so much when you do. 6′3, though? Dang!
I’m sure that your future childeren will have positive experiences! I hate to say this, but it seems that biracial children seem so much more adjusted when the mother is black. Maybe because the role of mothers is so much hands on. I don’t know. One things for sure, if you have daughters, you’ll know how to do their hair.lol
If you don’t mind, do you live in a fairly liberal area? If so, your children should be home free. Biracial kids in my ultra conservative, midwestern area are treated the same as monoracial blacks.
Yeah, that really did happen to Halle. It bothers her till this day. She said that her mother told her to look in the mirror and her reflection is what she should identify. So I think she approaches life as a fully black woman. But to me, she has the bone structure of a white woman.
Natasha,
Sorry, misspelled your name.
I didn’t know that my previous comments were interpreted as a “diss” towards black women of a specific phenotype. I’m sorry, if it was read that way. I made no mention of skin color so I’m perplexed on why that came up yet again.
FYI, Most “light skinned” blacks actually DO have stereotypically black features so I’m unsure of where another poster was going with that.
The theory of “mixed race” (black/white, I’m assuming?) people being more scientifically attractive is interesting yet how come “mulatto” types aren’t seen as being better looking than whites?
Are Eurasians seen as better looking and of having better facial symetry than full blooded East Asians? Hmmm…
Islandgirl,
Your experiences as a NFL cheerleader had to be interesting! I know a girl who works as part of a NFL team’s cheer team. She has a blast being part of it.
Islandgirl,
I remember Halle telling that story. Yet, like you said, I think her physical appearance shaped a lot of her experiences with race.
To be totally honest, no black/white person will ever been seen as white. They can be “black” or “mixed” but never white. It should be noted that many blacks who are NOT products of interracial marriages, but are VISIBLY PART WHITE, go through similar issues.
Myname,
Yes it was VERY interesting! From the audtion process, to the workouts and practices and of coarse, the actual games. If you’ve ever seen Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders show, it’s just like that.
What do you mean your friend was on a ‘cheer team’? Is that the same as a cheerleader?
It’s true. That is were most people are mistaken. Just because someone is biracial, it doesn’t mean that they are fully accepted.
There is an actress who is on my facebook (I’m a fan), Rachel True from Half and Half. I asked her if she thinks that being biracial would be any different than being fully black. She said that there is NO difference. When you audition, they just see your mocha skin and classifiy you as such.
Islandgirl,
The young lady I was referring to was part of a “spirit team. Their focus was to get the crowd on their feet before a game. She met so many celebrities and got into so many parties because of her role for this NBA team. I’m sure you did too!
Would you describe your time as a NFL cheerleader as “fun” or was it as grueling as being an NFL player?
See, Halle and Rachel, per their phenotypes, wouldn’t live a geniunely “mixed race” experience. They’d live a black one. They, and any other black/white offspring, WILL NEVER BE WHITE. Ever.
Similar to perceptions of skin shade, where do we draw the line between “biracial” and “monoracial” with black Americans? I mean, we call out Halle Berry as “biracial” per her having a known white parent. Yet, how about obvious “mixed bloods” like Colin Powell, who don’t? Or the Don Cheadles/Chris Rocks who also have plenty white blood but look like “regular blacks”?
islandgirl,
It’s good that you did not limit yourself. I think you miss out on so much when you do. 6′3, though? Dang!
I like ‘em tall. I like standing on my tip toes to kiss him.
I’m sure that your future childeren will have positive experiences! I hate to say this, but it seems that biracial children seem so much more adjusted when the mother is black. Maybe because the role of mothers is so much hands on. I don’t know. One things for sure, if you have daughters, you’ll know how to do their hair.lol
Lol. That might be true but I wouldn’t know because I don’t know too many older black-white families where the woman is black.
If you don’t mind, do you live in a fairly liberal area? If so, your children should be home free. Biracial kids in my ultra conservative, midwestern area are treated the same as monoracial blacks.
I’m from an urban Northeastern city where I’m not currently living but am moving back to soon. It is fairly liberal. My SO’s family is also very liberal and accepting so they wouldn’t have issues with the color of the children.
mynameismyname,
The theory of “mixed race” (black/white, I’m assuming?) people being more scientifically attractive is interesting yet how come “mulatto” types aren’t seen as being better looking than whites?
I tend to find some better looking than whites. But I guess in the media it’s just the “anything but black” issue.
Are Eurasians seen as better looking and of having better facial symetry than full blooded East Asians? Hmmm…
According to the study. But I called him on that. I mean, someone like Devon Aoki appears to have an asymmetrical face and is not very conventionally attractive. But he said “Trends, Natasha. There are always exceptions.” I just let him believe mixed race people are a superior breed. It helps him to sleep at night.
http://daughterofthefirst.blogspot.com/2010/01/bi-racial-children.html
I see a lot of the talk has been about biracial kids identifying themselves as black because they look more black…
What if the opposit happens?
What if your child comes out looking more “white”?
Like Victoria rowells daughter, or Halle berrys daughter, stacey dash’s kids etc
The above blog did a great post on this.
I don’t know why this is, but I have noticed that biracial kids when the mother is black and the father is white, tend to look more like the father, white.
Is it just me? or has anyone else noticed this?
L,
I have noticed some instances of that as well with Downtown Julie Brown’s daughter, Soledad O Brian’s kids, Karyn Parsons and Rae Dawn Chong’s daughters.
Bear in mind that these women are biracial, unless the mother is monoracially black ie ‘regular’ average black woman it would be interesting to see if that observation holds any water.
I’ve noticed it with east african women as well, but I guess they don’t count lol
is Victoria rowel and stacey dash mixed though?
I always thought they were black.
I think i have to go visit blackcelebritybabies.com lol
Yes Victoria Rowell has a white mother, not sure about Stacey Dash, I read somewhere that she’s of mixed heritage, but not reliable though, was wikipedia after all.
You should read Victoria Rowell’s book ‘The Women who raised me’. Interesting read.
L, do you mind if I ask a few questions/make some comments? I’m always curious to see how biracial or mixed race people view the various races and race in general.
These posts of mine have been a bit too emo, I must say. My apologies. I’m just white like that sometimes.
What’s the connection between white and emo?
It’s actually not true that mixed people are never considered white. Though I have always identified as multiracial, my friends have told me they consider me to be white.
I guess it depends on the person’s appearance. Some consider celebrities like Jennifer Beals and Wentworth Miller to be white, while considering Halle Berry, Barack Obama, and Lauren London to be black.
Do you appear to be of mixed heritage?
I actually enjoy white social status immensely. I love being part of the mainstream!
I have to say… this reeks of low self-esteem and internalized racism. What is so great about being white? You should love who you are. It saddens me to see a person of color break under society’s pressure to conform. Don’t let society and the media define who you are.
I see a lot of the talk has been about biracial kids identifying themselves as black because they look more black…
What if the opposit happens?
What if your child comes out looking more “white”?
I’ve wondered about this. I am lighter-skinned (but my family members’ colors vary greatly) and my SO is blond with green eyes. What if our child(ren) looks white? I certainly would like them to acknowledge all of their heritage, in any case.
I don’t know why this is, but I have noticed that biracial kids when the mother is black and the father is white, tend to look more like the father, white.
Is it just me? or has anyone else noticed this?
Hmmm. I don’t know. Edgar Bronfman Jr.’s children come to mind as an exception. Hannah and Benjamin appear to be more black or mixed than white:
http://images.filmmagic.com/images/tnm/1557943.jpg
http://cm1.theinsider.com/media/0/78/76/MIA.0.0.0×0.381×600.jpeg (son on the left)
Oh, sorry, frustrated guy. I addressed that last post to L when most of it was meant for you. The last bolded portion was stated by L, not me.
“frustrated guy” – is it your mother or father who is black?
Natasha W, I am east african, Eritrean, not mixed, but if I were to have babies with a white man my kids would look more like him, and that I base on my other relatives who are married and have children with their white husbands.
If I had kids who came out looking more white I would teach them to also be proud of their black side and embrace it and not deny it!
If i had kids who I spent how many hours giving birth to? lol they better aknowledge who they are or else I will feel like I failed and feel horrible! I don’t want my kids to be self hating, also i would teach them their native tongue even if we live in Europe.
People when they see me think I am mixed with white because i am “Lighter skinned” and have “white” features, but I would never deny who I am ,Ever.
I am proud where I am from and so will my children be one day.
“I hate to say this, but it seems that biracial children seem so much more adjusted when the mother is black. Maybe because the role of mothers is so much hands on. I don’t know. One things for sure, if you have daughters, you’ll know how to do their hair.lol”
I have noticed this as well.
“I’m not saying white is necessarily better. It’s just that I don’t have to deal with certain problems in my life because I’m treated as and look white. Girls don’t cross the street when they see me walking down the sidewalk at night. Cabbies compete with each other to give me a ride. My competence is never questioned just because of what I look like. I know stereotypical minorities have a hard row to hoe, but I have managed to avoid those difficulties. Mixed race status brings difficulties of it’s own, but I doubt they outweigh the problems faced by people who look black or Mexican. ”
So if people ask you, you just say you’re white?
Do you ever tell people who might not know, that you are infact biracial?
If not…that’s kind of sad.
I really hate when people don’t acknowledge their ancestors, like they’re ashamed of who they are.
Then again, why do sometimes I get the impression that this is only about your black side of the family? What about someone’s white side? Why do black people hate so much when someone mentions Obama’s white family? Why do mixed (black and white) kids have to claim they’re black in order to be accepted?
Maybe I just don’t know how “one drop rule” works, so I don’t understand. Please explain.
To L:
I’m pretty sure the taxi thing is all about decent tipping and nor fear of non whites. And absolutely, looking or passing as white makes life much easier. Sad to say.
I would think looking/passing as White would make life harder, in the sense that you always have to be suspicious of (White) people’s true intentions. Would they not like you if they knew you were Black? Would they feel comfortable using racial slurs in front of you, then choke out an awkward apology when you say, “Well actually, I’m Black”? Would they be OK with making generalizations about Black people given the disclaimer, “But I don’t mean you?”
I feel comfortable with the fact that since I am “obviously” Black, people see me as such and treat me accordingly, whether that treatment be positive or negative. It would really hurt to have others’ treatment of me be contingent on what they perceive me to be racially.
Thank you for your answer.
Like I said, I don’t know anything of this first hand. I asked because that was something I noticed- black people often think of mixed individuals as black (even Abagond said something along the lines of: “having a white parent is just an interesting info, it doesn’t change the fact you’re black”). I guess it’s true that, no matter how you think of yourself, American society will see you as black. But it does seem a bit… strange, to refer to someone’s mother as “an interesting fact”.
On the other hand, white people tend to be even more harsh: if you’re not 100% white, you are not white at all (even if you’re, say, Caucasian but not western-norther European sort of Caucasian). Having a white parent- or both for that matter- doesn’t make white people see you as truly white. Which means they will discriminate you.
I think Americans are a bit more liberal with the definition of whiteness than Europeans are.
Are you sure?
I am from Europe, and there are many, many (famous) people I consider to be white. Yet, Americans seem to disagree.
Plus, I all Caucasians are white to me. This includes people from Middle East, India, and many Latin Americans.
In my experience, Europeans are more liberal when it comes to definition of “whiteness”, mostly because, unlike in America, you can be seen as white, but still inferior (depending on where in Europe- or Asia- you come from).
Frustrated Guy’s experiences and perspectives are very interesting. His comments are very poignant.
Yet, I agree with Jasmin, it’s a position that I wouldn’t want to trade with him. Like she suggested, those “privileges” are given on a fairweather basis. That “white acceptance” you speak of doesn’t come from geniune love. It’s based on hate. It’s unfortunate but real.
That “white acceptance” you speak of doesn’t come from geniune love. It’s based on hate. It’s unfortunate but real.
I have to agree here.
Possibly off topic: (Fake) politeness just for the sake of it, taking stereotypes for facts and assuming white is better tend to be one of things-white-people-do.
I though when you wrote how people not from northern or western Europe were not considered white, you were referring to conditions in Europe.
No, I though that’s how Americans see the issue.
I have no idea how Americans see race, but many comments made by Americans (not just here, on various places) made me think it might be the case. It all started (for me) with that prince in “Princess and the Frog”- people said he looked “Mediterranean”, “which isn’t really white”. Also, when my friend was in America, all her friends- apart from other exchange students- were either black or Latinos. Sure, it doesn’t mean much, but it looked like those people were more ready to befriend her (and ask her on dates) than the whites. Some people were even surprised when she referred to herself as white.
Of course, it’s just generalization, and it’s not like whole America- or Europe is the same. But that’s the thing I noticed.
Frustrated Guy,
Are there any black people in your life? Overall, what is your general relationship with the black community? When whites make their anti-black feelings known, how does it make you feel?
Americans still often describe Eastern or Southern Euros as “ethnic whites.” So there is some perception of difference there, even if it’s not that socially relevant.
Thanks for the info. Still, I do think “being white” is somewhat more important in America. In America, it means something. It makes your social status better. In Europe, like I said, you can be seen as white but still treated as inferior. For example, most Europeans see Turks as whites (well, Caucasians); but that doesn’t mean they like them, acknowledge them as equals or want them around.
Frustrated Guy:
Do you think whites would be less accepting of you if had been brought up by the black side of your family or if most of your friends or girlfriends were black?
^^^
Wow. The anti-black sentiment that they harbor includes you (and your family), by default. No?
I agree, many whites defintely have a very clear idea of what “black” behavior and/or “white” behavior is. Of course, millions and millions of black and white folks defy these expectations everyday but obviously they are content in thinking of the world in this way.
So, do you crave some type of relationship with the black community? In general, how do blacks react when they find out that you’re “one of them”?
Bye ‘frustrated guy’, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Seeing what Frustrated guy wrote makes me nervous when I one day myself have children…I don’t want them to feel like they have to choose sides.
I don’t want a sarah jane if you know what I mean.
Now THAT would be horrible.
I have family members who are biracial (black mother/white father) and they look white, but they have no problems with their identity,and no one makes it their problem either, they don’t live in America though, maybe that’s why!
@ Frustrated Guy:
Thank you for your interesting comments.
FG’s comments were defintely interesting. Yet, sad. Too bad he’s living out a somewhat self-inflicted “tragic mulatto” tale.
There’s many white looking blacks, who don’t have a white parent (and some who do), who adjust just fine in a black social context. Hell, I went to school with a ton of them!
I look forward to the day when we recognize someone as a “beautiful person” and not a “beautiful black person” or “beautiful white person.” We’re all humans – one big family.
Note: Frustrated Guy’s comments have been deleted from this post by his request.
why cant a woman be herself and stop wanting to be someone else or like another person?
I like attreactive black woman as much as white ones i dont know?
maybe more,
jasmine you are really cute and have a nice smile too,
I see something in a black girl, or woman that i dont see in caucasian ones,
maybe itsd the culture or maybe its just generations of more family like ubbringing in black circles that i see and caucasian families alwas had one or two that had to have thier way or a snobby attitude,
Im always curious about black woman that i see, id thier appreciated as much as society thinks they appreciate thier own or the so called white thinking, or whatever,
i just know i like black woman, i see them on TV and in movies and i think about , or fantasize about them much more than a white wife,
or girlfriend,not judging ones either thats just me,