On this thread nothing is off topic, though the rest of the comment policy still applies. If you want to say something off topic, this is the place to do it.
PLEASE DO NOT POST ANY EMBEDDED VIDEOS ON THIS THREAD!!
I allowed that at first but then within a month the thread became very slow and tended to crash my browser. Unfortunately WordPress now autoembeds YouTube videos. To defeat this put the YouTube link in parentheses, like this:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q33NlOhBgso)
See also:
The old Open Thread was getting too long for its own good, so I started a new one here.
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/18/us/adidas-shackle-shoes/index.html
Shackle shoes…D:
Those are such ugly shoes but the overall idea behind it is just dumb. Being inspired by a monster toy in shackles does make these shoes even remotely appealing.
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http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/54318543-68/family-obama-tribble-shields.html.csp
“DNA gives new insights into Michelle Obama’s roots ”
“For many members of that first generation to emerge from bondage, the experience of slavery was so shameful and painful that they rarely spoke of it. This willful forgetting pervaded several branches of the first lady’s family tree, passed along like an inheritance from one generation to the next.”
Sounds too familiar, the lack of knowledge on certain ancestors. At least in the case of the FLOTUS there is a possibility that things were consensual. It is a interesting article.
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@ Joshua,
Whether people consent to the current status of being of the racial divide of Europe or North America is almost irrelevant. IN my mind, it is those whites that attempt to bridge the travesties of justice foujnd in the past with the chance for justice in the future who should be remembered. At least remembered for having integrity. The rest that deny it or are cheerleaders of it are parasitic off the legacy that white colonialism has had on POC.
As long as whites try to separate themselves from their past, the more two-faced they look. They reap the benefits of being white but then they disavow the havoc their sewed on POC in the past, present and probably the future.
You and I share the same skin color, same first name, but radically different perspectives on how whiteness should be addressed by our present society.
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@ duckduck
I call that sort of thing the Postman Paradox:
A critique of an institution that requires usage of that very same institution in order to have any meaningful effect – rendering the critique self-refuting.
http://satanforce.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/postmans-paradox/
You are quite correct, of course. A simple glance through any of my 2000 word posts will show that they are usually strategically sprinkled with various pictures and videos (the Cracked.com approach). Oh, and book review is up “Amusing Ourselves to Death” Book review is up.
http://satanforce.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/book-review-amusing-ourselves-to-death/
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk)
“AZEALIA BANKS – 212 FT. LAZY JAY”
I wanted to post some lyrics..but too much editing for swear words ><.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yA9ZWYYTgXQ#!)
“If Credit Card Companies Told The Truth”
XD. I didn’t know credit card companies were so awful.
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Ugh, sometimes other Asian-Americans piss me off. I got into a debate with other Asians regarding a particular thread about black people. I was defending blacks. And most of the Asians were getting on the defensive, calling me names, and one idiot called me a race baiter worse than Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton because I defended black people. Jerks!
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Aba, you should allow the special lady in your life to do a guest post on make-up. I want to see what brothas really feel about their women wearing it.
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I just finished reading “The Dark End of the Street” by Danielle McGuire. I feel like this right now.
(http://youtu.be/9UgFCgKmAq0)
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I just finished reading “The Dark End of the Street” by Danielle McGuire. I feel like this right now.
(http://youtu.be/9UgFCgKmAq)
Sorry Aba, delete the previous when you’re ready.
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@WarrenAZ
I’m disappointed that I just heard about this book from your post. It is an important piece of history that needs to be known.
On a side note, I really want to play Alice Madness Returns now ><.
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http://www.timschraeder.com/2010/06/30/a-different-kind-of-demonstration-at-gay-pride/
Its from 2010 but I’m just now learning about it. It is just so powerful for someone to sincerely see that they are hurting someone and apologizing for the blind hatred. I want to say more but I’m still a little scattered brain.
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http://dormtainment.com/true-life-im-an-online-hater/
Why are these young men .. so brillant XD.
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@deedee
I laughed my azz off. Thanks! I especially love the redneck.
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deedee that video is hilarious. I liked hatin’ reggie the best
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I have a question for yall. Who here thinks that integration was detrimental the black community? btw i’m new here
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@SW6
That has happened to me and it sucks!! I started typing long comments on word and copying and pasting to the blog so it didn’t happen again.
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@britbrit
welcome 🙂
“Who here thinks that integration was detrimental the black community?”
That is a difficult question to answer. I guess it would depend on personal opinion and experiences. If someone feels that integration is harmful to the black community…then they may have personal reasons that others may not understand. I personally don’t feel that integration is any way near as harmful as segregation but that is only because I feel that segregation is oppressive. But if an individual decides to segregate themselves it may be what is best for them to be able to heal.
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hi michelle:)
thanks for replying. I asked because a while back I heard it said that integration hurt the collective Black community more than it helped. I think there may be some truth to this. I feel that this is a major reason for the poor state of the Black community. We integrated before it was time. Some people would say that there was no need for integration at all. Segregation was oppressive, but in a weird way it helped hold the community together. Back then, Blacks were forced to close ranks and rely on themselves. If a Black attained professional status, they were likely to remain in the community and give back. There was no other choice due to Jim Crow. Black professionals today leave the neighborhoods that they were brought up in for majority white communities. That’s not to say that I think that they should remain in the same neighborhood. I just think that if “separate but equal” was indeed separate but equal, the black community wouldn’t be all that different from the white community. For example, if you took a town and designated one side for whites and one side for blacks I think that both sides would flourish. Even the Black side, or rather especially the black side. The black community would retain its professionals and a natural class system would emerge with no harm done to the white community. I’m not advocating this of course, i’m just sayin’.
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@britbrit
“The black community would retain its professionals and a natural class system would emerge with no harm done to the white community.”
I am not sure what you mean by that…I hope I am wrong for reading it this way…but it sounds as though you are implying that integration hurt the white community…Could you please clarify?
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BTW, I’m not a troll. I’ve been reading this blog for some time now. I just never commented before. There are a lot of intelligent people here, and its kinda intimidating.
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@britbrit
There is nothing to be intimidated by. I only comment on topics that I have knowledge or experience in. I still read the blogs but if I don’t know anything about it I will google it. But I still don’t comment because I am don’t think a few minutes on google qualifies as knowledgeable. lol 🙂
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Sure, I’d be glad to clarify. What I mean is that if we were in that hypothetical situation there would be no real drawbacks to either community. I’m definitely not saying that integration hurt the white community. I’m saying that if we seperated it wouldn’t hurt the white community. I’m black, if that makes any difference lol.
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@britbrit
I understand that some people feel that integration hurt the black community…but I don’t feel it was integration…I feel it was racism that hurt the black community. The whole debate over integration baffles me because I don’t feel that it should have ever come to that. We should have always been “integrated” if we were to follow the moral christian beliefs that this country was supposedly built on. Racism caused the divide and racism continues to segregate and oppress. To be separated because of the color of your skin just sounds absurd to me.
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Reading through my comments, it sounds like i’m advocating segregation but i’m really not. I think that the way things are now is the way things always will be. We can’t put the cat back in the bag, nor should we. I’m just giving my opinion on why the black community is in the state that it is in. I know that some people believe in their heart of hearts, that the black community is like that because it is the nature of blacks. I want to do my part in dispelling that myth. All blacks are not poor, criminals, stereotypes and what have you. It just seems that way because the only part of the black community that remains a community (in my opinion) is the poor. I mean this in terms of proximity. It seems that there is no tangible black middle or upper class because for the most part there are no sizeable communities to speak of. As soon as blacks move up they split, giving the impression that the black community is mostly lower class. In actuality, the other classes are dispersed throughout the white community like flies in milk.
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@britbrit
Thank you for clarifying. lol I disagree though…I do feel the white community would suffer…because the black community has brought so much to the white community. Plus…what would the white racists have to complain about lol
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Ohhh…britbrit…where have you traveled to? Atlanta has one of the biggest and best Black communities that is thriving and has all class levels.
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haha, you’re right about that.
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@britbrit
check this site out
http://www.blackatlanta.com/
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Yeah, you’re right I hadn’t considered Atlanta. I think it’s a good example that majority black communties can be successful. I’m sure you’ve heard some bigots say before that if left to its own devices, the Black community would implode upon itself. I disagree so I wanted to give my humble opinion. As for where I have traveled to, not to many places. I live in a tiny city in NC right on the border of SC. Not exactly a mecca for diversity.
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that’s a pretty cool website. thanks so much for the link
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Yes I have heard that before…but the people saying it have nothing to offer but ignorance so they have to make others look bad to deflect from their own shortcomings! You should take a trip to Atlanta. It is a great place to visit. I would live there if my husband’s job would transfer him there!! But for now I just have to settle for the occasional trip. It is about 1 1/2 hrs from where I live.
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yeah, like i said I don’t get out much. I’m only 18 so I haven’t had very much “life experience.” On top of that, I live in a place that people from the big city would consider the boonies lol. My city is very southern indeed. As a matter of fact, we are known for our livermush expo. In school, it wasn’t uncommon to see guys wearing shirts advertising Jenkins Livermush. As a matter of fact, it was somewhat in style. That and camouflage attire, which even the girls would wear. Note that no Black people wore those things though, but it was common for the white people to wear it. There wasn’t all that much racism that I can think of though. The blacks and whites got along famously lol. I guess because we were too busy hating Crest, our rival school. Now that, is a country school. They even had a drive your tractor to school day. Which I think is awesome.
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I grew up in a teeny tiny town as well. At times it can seem like that is all there is but…trust me…there is soooo much more out there. I am not sure what your plans are for your present or future…but whatever they are I hope you are able to travel and experience life outside of the “boonies”. 🙂
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Something to wet your appetite:
http://diaryofanegress.com/2012/06/26/the-great-white-hope/
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lol thanks for the kind words, and thank you for engaging me:)
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Your welcome 🙂 I enjoyed the chat 🙂
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@truthbetold
that’s very interesting. I think that most blacks are crippled by self-hate to some degree. I say degree because, I don’t think it’s either or. I’m much more enlightened now than I was a year ago, but am still in the process of deprogramming myself. I don’t think i’ll ever arrive at a point where I can say that I have zero hang ups about race, because changing the way you think is a constant practice. We’re bombarded by the media daily, so it makes sense that I should reexamine my ideas daily. I am all for interracial relationships, but a lot of blacks need to take a hard look at themselves before engaging in such so that no baggage is carried into an otherwise healthy relationship.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un0wY6bx_2g)
Just got back from an excellent show in AC
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnhVkcVW98I&feature=related)
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Manu Chao:”Mr.Bobby”
(www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiO2BF9uDro&feature=autoplay&list=PL6B22D495686949F6&playnext=2)
=D =D =D =D =D
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9aTfTHtFY0&list=UU-pd9IT71oivlEcSw5o3m9A&index=1&feature=plcp)
I talk a lot about practicing Afro diasporic concepts and have incredible results.
The youtube above is an example of the way I practice these concepts
If Im not doing this live in a show like this, with an incredible Afro Brazilian dancer, or a jazz show playing the concepts of Miles Davis and John Coltrane, I am rehersing with the dancers or doing my own individual practicing, which is like prayer to me , by playing with various styles of Afro diasporic concepts like jazz, samba, clave, hip hop, etc
And , the life benafits are enormous.
By the way, this is only one way to practice Afro diasporic concepts and I dont mean it to be the only way (still on the road…Miami is really cool!)
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@ Peanut
Good point. I know what you mean. I am going to do the remaining four or so Broken Records and then move away from that stuff. The BWE post is coming soon.
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Abagond, you have been promising the BWE posts for weeks now. I’m getting impatient,lol. also you never asnwered back about the post on black women and make-up?
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@Bulanik
Do you think that it is from one extreme to another? I was wondering if it meant WP with a darker hue to their skin.
Thinking about this though, I have lost count of the amount of times WP, in all honesty mostly the older generation, have commented about tanning to a PoC. The words ‘did you get a tan’ and then a giggle are still heard oft. I can’t believe that people STILL dont get that Sun, affects different shades of skin more or less obviously than others but nevertheless STILL affects the skin regardless.
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Bulanik,
The seemingly contradictory nature of tanning disappears when viewed through the lens of class.
In most traditional societies around the world, darker skin indicated outdoor work, communicating poverty / low caste.
However, following the industrial revolution in the west, tanned skin began to indicate that one had the time and resources for leisure and travel.
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@ Randy
“…The seemingly contradictory nature of tanning disappears when viewed through the lens of class…”
Does it really? You paint it as an either or: Race or Class. While both offer alternative perspectives of something. None by themselves offer complete explanations. A refusal to look at race through the lens of race is what makes those glaring contradictions, Bulanik speaks to, disappear.
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@ Bulanik
Have you seen this entry by Ankhesen Mie?:
http://www.ankhesen-mie.net/2012/05/umexplanation-please.html
Pictures say it better than words…
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Kwamla:
Which aspects of tanning are not explainable by class? Bulanik describes a situation in which additional factors may be present, but the general tanning issue by itself seems entirely understandable from a wealth/class perspective.
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@Bulanik
Demerera – what do you think of the tanning industry for white people?
Well, it certainly big business isnt it. What was originally looked down and frowned upon – Thank you Randy lol, is now highly sought after by many – that, for some, elusive even tan.
If this can’t be obtained from basking in the rays, people will now even go brown using artificial means i,e sunbed, creams etc.
Yet, I’ve noticed many white people who dislike black people slathering on oil and laying in the sun hour after hour like shiny chickens roasting in the burning heat.
Once or twice I have listened to exchanges between white people and black people about tanning – and practically couldn’t speak through sheer astonishment at what I was hearing. The offense taken by some white people if it was suggested by a black person that by tanning, white people are trying to look black! “NO! NO! Not black like mud….tan is tan! TAN!”
Or “You mean a black person is like a white person with a tan?”
Or “We don’t want to look black…we want to look nice.”
Yes, there are many who will be shocked and offended if it is suggested that they are trying to look black but, on the converse in recent years, I have heard WP go up to a PoC and say ‘i’m nearly as dark/same shade as you’ and brandish this proudly. This tends to be the younger generation as the ‘elders’ are still stuck with the same mindset that Randy presents above i.e. ‘low caste’.
My understanding is this ‘low caste category’ affected many people who eventually became known white americans too. Apparently, this is how the term ‘Redneck’ arose when they couldnt afford to pay for the more shaded seats on the passage to the USA and had to sit in unshaded areas where their necks burned. I saw this on a documentary but browsing quickly, cant find anything at the moment however, wikipedia states the following:-
“The term characterized farmers having a red neck caused by sunburn from hours working in the fields. A citation from 1893 provides a definition as “poorer inhabitants of the rural districts…men who work in the field, as a matter of course, generally have their skin stained red and burnt by the sun, and especially is this true of the back of their necks”.[10]”
I notice that tans are associated with looking healthy, sexy and slimmer.
I can’t understand this. The paradox is laughter-inducing.
Indeed. It seems that pale skin is associated with not being healthy and is certainly less desireable than having tanned ‘glowing’ skin. I recall Nicola Roberts from ‘Girls Aloud’ came under fire for this…
http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/being-really-cool
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@ Randy
I’d love to read your class analysis of those tan lotion product names!
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Bulanik:
The general principle is that people from all classes desire the appearance markers of the wealthier classes. For example, even the poor in Asia tend to cover themselves in order to avoid looking darker, and thus poorer.
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@Randy
The general principle is that people from all classes desire the appearance markers of the wealthier classes.
So am I wrong in thinking that many seek glowing tanned skin in the here and NOW because it is often associated with healthiness?
I dont think the association between being tanned and being wealthy still stands, after all, travel is much more accessible and affordable than ever before.
There has to be another reason why a tanned complexion appeals more …
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Bulanik wrote:
Tanning seemed to have expanded to indicate not just wealth, but a “healthy / outdoor” lifestyle.
Bulanik wrote:
Seems like those products are the result of marketers taking a trend to an extreme end, not unlike skin bleaching products for nether regions.
Demerera wrote:
I would agree. Also, trends and other memes can take on a life of their own, decoupling from their origins.
Demerera wrote:
I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Travel, outdoor activity, and the leisure lifestyle are still markers of relative affluence and “leading the good life”. Most of the people I know never come close to consuming all of their employer-offered vacation time, with some forgoing vacations almost entirely.
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Highest court in the land upholds Obamacare!
Wow…
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@ Randy
If tanning is associated with being wealthy or a wealthy lifestyle, as you maintain, why are marketeers associating this names like: CHOCOLATE SILK
CHOCOLATE TEMPTATION, SOLID BLACK,ULTIMATE, BLACK, UNBELIEVABLY BLACK? BROWN ENVY
What associations are they linking to in white people’s mind on a sub-conscious level? What do you yourself feel about these sun tan products? Do they make you want to be associated their wealth conferring status?
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Highest court in the land upholds Obamacare!
Wow…
”
”
”
Now its down to the 2012 election. Will Romney be able to repeal the Affordable Care Act?
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If Obama does not get re-elected–guess what?
It’s ok.(in my estimation of things)
The fact that this happened today is historic in and of itself.
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Bulanik and Kwamla,
Tanning products and services which make race-related references don’t appear to be mainstream, but rather seem to be niche offerings at the bizarre end of the spectrum, similar to those intimate whitening products.
Don’t you think it’s a bit narcissistic to presume that the average white person who tans is desiring to appear black? My wife’s natural skin tone is a lovely caramel color, but I wouldn’t suggest that most people who tan are trying to look SE Asian.
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@Phoebeprunelle
I hope you’re right!!!! The Affordable Care Act is about social justice not draining the white male coiffeurs. As we have been taught ad nauseum.
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Bulanik,
I refer to those tanning products which specifically reference black people as being on the “bizarre” end of the industry. From what I’ve seen, that’s not the norm.
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Abag has written posts claiming that blacks are not seen as attractive because people have internalized whiteness as the standard of beauty. And now you guys claim whites tan in order to look black. You can’t have it both ways.
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Bulanik,
Everyone knows black people have a variety of skin tones. My comment was intended to probe why some people might claim that white folks who tan are attempting to look like black folks when there are other races with brown skin which they could instead be attempting to imitate (if indeed such imitation is taking place, which seems doubtful as a general rule).
As for your other questions, perhaps it is an artifact of language differences, but some appear rather scattershot, and so it’s not clear which are yet unanswered. Repost those and I’ll answer.
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@Randy
Demerera wrote: So am I wrong in thinking that many seek glowing tanned skin in the here and NOW because it is often associated with healthiness?
Randy: I would agree. Also, trends and other memes can take on a life of their own, decoupling from their origins.
My understanding of why people tan seems to be completely disparate in every way from what you chose to understand or, perhaps what applies to you as an individual. I would be intrigued to know whether you are a sun worshipper or whether you seek shade always when the sun is at its brightest?
Demerera wrote :I dont think the association between being tanned and being wealthy still stands, after all, travel is much more accessible and affordable than ever before.
Randy: I wouldn’t be so sure about that. Travel, outdoor activity, and the leisure lifestyle are still markers of relative affluence and “leading the good life”. Most of the people I know never come close to consuming all of their employer-offered vacation time, with some forgoing vacations almost entirely.
I will nick an observation from Bulanik about ‘cheap package holidays’. The type that are being thrown down the throats of us all at the moment in anticipation of the school holidays. Even if people are putting everything on credit i.e. those who are aspirational or those that can genuinely afford it will still go ‘abroad’, generally to places with hot climates (to escape the tediousness often grim British weather no doubt). What I am saying here Randy is that the world literally is everyones oyster and that financial constraints, whilst for some should be a consideration, nevertheless does not prevent those who are less wealthy from having the same experiences in terms of travel that more wealthy have.
My wife’s natural skin tone is a lovely caramel color, but I wouldn’t suggest that most people who tan are trying to look SE Asian.
Interesting way of putting things here, almost like her skin colour has changed – maybe she on the sunbed tanning at the moment or out getting a bit of sun perhaps. 🙂
I don’t know why you feel those ‘names’ are at the extreme end of the market. The purpose is intended to make individuals ‘visualise’ I guess. Do you think that these product names are ‘extreme’ because it is doubtful that it would be desireable for people to want to have a similar hue to a black person or that it would look ridiculous – perhaps you can clarify for me?
For example, do you think both Caramel Spice and Unbelievably Black are both at extreme ends of the market OR do you think one is more extreme than the other and if so, which one and why?
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@Randy
I have another comment in moderation but…
My comment was intended to probe why some people might claim that white folks who tan are attempting to look like black folks when there are other races with brown skin which they could instead be attempting to imitate (if indeed such imitation is taking place, which seems doubtful as a general rule).
Comments like the one I made above:-
Yes, there are many who will be shocked and offended if it is suggested that they are trying to look black but, on the converse in recent years, I have heard WP go up to a PoC and say ‘i’m nearly as dark/same shade as you’ and brandish this proudly. This tends to be the younger generation as the ‘elders’ are still stuck with the same mindset that Randy presents above i.e. ‘low caste’
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“My wife’s natural skin tone is a lovely caramel color”
Thats hilarious!! 😀
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^^^
Meant to say “Comments like the one I made above, copied here”
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Demerera:
I avoid excess exposure.
Demerera:
Perhaps this is a perspective more appropriate to Europe than America. In the US, most workers get around 2 weeks of vacation per year and some get less. Of those with vacation, they’re often strongly disincentivized from consuming all of it, with the implied threat of: “If we can do without you for 2 weeks, maybe we don’t need you at all.”
Demerera:
She assiduously avoids sun exposure like most people from Asia, and is the same caramel color as the day we met. Our kids on the other hand are porcelain-white, which makes for interesting family photos.
Demerera:
The name of the latter at least superficially may suggest a racial allusion, but that’s a speculation. In general, I’m offering a critique of the idea that tanning by white people engenders a desire to acquire the appearance of a black person. That was the source of comment about “narcissism”. If someone is going to jump to the conclusion that tanning is an attempt to look like another race, why automatically assume that the target is the black race? Why not asian?
Further, I would suggest that the issue serves as a model for a broader critique of people who tend to automatically infer that various actions by white people must have a race-related component.
Demerera:
The “mindset” I’m referencing is a traditional one still found in many parts of the world today, but which is reversed in the post-industrial revolution west where the lower classes moved from farm labor to factory / office work. And again I might humorously ask, even if a white person is comparing their skin tone to a black person’s, how do you know that the goal is to appear black and not, say, SE Asian?
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Lol right. Just the fact that John Roberts swayed the vote the way he did says volumes!
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@ Randy
Given you seem to have developed a selective filter active for responding to more than one or two direct questions at a time. Which translates to any reasonable reading of these exchanges here as simply: question avoidance.
Perhaps you should be engaged with a minimum of one or two questions at a time. Then maybe you could indicate which ones you wish or don’t wish to respond to. This is my contribution towards limiting that overflowing in-box of questions Bulanik alarmingly observed. So allow me to begin with my two question limit…
Randy
“…She assiduously avoids sun exposure like most people from Asia, and is the same caramel color as the day we met. Our kids on the other hand are porcelain-white, which makes for interesting family photos…
Do you or have your family used sun tanning lotions? If so…What are the brand names? (question 1)
What do you believe is at play when white people (as they do in many different countries) indulge in the practise of “Blackface”? But rarely AsianFace? Would it be correct to assume the target is Black people in these cases? (question 2)
Lets just remember why I’m posing question 2 Randy…
Randy
I’m offering a critique of the idea that tanning by white people engenders a desire to acquire the appearance of a black person. That was the source of comment about “narcissism”. If someone is going to jump to the conclusion that tanning is an attempt to look like another race, why automatically assume that the target is the black race? Why not asian?
There you are only 2 Questions Randy. I hope this procedure has been of some help to you…
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duckduckgoofs
Abag has written posts claiming that blacks are not seen as attractive because people have internalized whiteness as the standard of beauty. And now you guys claim whites tan in order to look black. You can’t have it both ways.
This assumes a belief in only one objective standard of Beauty. Black or white. So which one is it?
This is why you state: You can’t have it both ways.
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Kwamla:
Are you asking about lotions to make a person more, rather than less, tan? If so, then “no”, never.
Kwamla:
Blackface is obviously an attempt to imitate/portray black people, which to me appears to be a specific example of the broader human propensity to “pantomime the other”. From what I can tell, it’s quite rare these days. As for “AsianFace”, it tends to present as non-asian people taking “chinky eye” pictures.
Are you suggesting that tanning and blackface are somehow related?
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Randy,
On Question (1)
Ok. So I suppose you are saying you use lotions like sun screen (to prevent tanning) but not tanning ones specifically. Would this be correct?
On Question (2)
Can you think of any examples of say Black countries which regularly pantomime the other as in “WhiteFace”? for example. Something equivalent to what we know the white Dutch people already do in Holland. This would help illustrate your argument about a broader human propensity to pantomime.
“…Are you suggesting that tanning and blackface are somehow related?
Yes!..you have it in one. This is precisely what I am saying!
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Kwamla:
Correct. We consume large quantities of sunscreen but no tan-promoting products.
Kwamla:
I’m not familiar enough with predominantly black countries to comment on the frequency of “whiteface” or similar race-based mimicry. I would assert that it’s very rare in the industrialized west to see blackface these days.
Kwamla:
What specifically do you think is the connection between sun tanning and blackface?
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Randy
Related to question (1)
How would feel if any of your family began exploring usage of sun tanning products? Would you encourage/discourage or remain totally indifferent to this new trend?
Related to question (2)
You referred to a broader human propensity to pantomime other ethnic groups in your previous arguments in an attempt to explain or account for “Blackface” traditions. In the light of your now admission to not being familiar with a comparable practise of “whiteface” in other countries (Black or otherwise) do you still wish to maintain this argument? If so you need to further substantiate your position on this. Or would you prefer to dismiss this idea as just misplaced speculative thought? So we can let it drop.
Its important we stick to the two question limit so that we don’t get bogged down by overflow in your in-box as Bulanik stated. We can add in new questions as old ones get resolved or answered.
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@Randy
And again I might humorously ask, even if a white person is comparing their skin tone to a black person’s, how do you know that the goal is to appear black and not, say, SE Asian?
It has been said by I think Bulanik somewhere upthread but, you do realise that black people the world over come in all different shades and colours dont you? If someone makes a point of going to X black person and saying “‘i’m nearly as dark/same shade as you” isnt it reasonable to assume that the goal IS in fact to appear the same/similar to the person they are comparing with?
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Kwamla:
It would be pretty out of character for my wife to use such a product, but I wouldn’t particularly care. As for my kids, once they’re old enough to make such a decision it’s up to them, though I would probably express ongoing concerns about sun safety.
On the other hand, my wife’s family would likely be absolutely incredulous at such a choice, given that pale skin tone is highly prized in their culture.
Kwamla:
To clarify, I stated that there is a broad propensity to pantomime “the other”, of which racially-based parody is but one example, that which includes makeup being a narrower instance still, and one which is socially anathema to most people these days.
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Demerera:
That idea is seemingly self-negating. Hopefully I can clearly explain what I mean. If a “black” person’s skin can be anything from olive to dark black, then the idea that a person who is tanning is trying to look “black” loses meaning, since “black” could be anything.
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Bulanik,
Unfortunately it appears as though you’ve not correctly parsed or understood what’s been written.
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Abagond,
I was wondering, have any of the trolls that you banned from here tried to comment further or sent emails? If so, were they seemingly upset?
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@Bulanik
I am just asking myself what on earth white folk would say if “blacks” started calling ourselves “caramels” or “bronzes” or “tans” or whatever our actual skin tones truly are…. but “black” doesn’t occupy that space, does it, Randy?
Some do notice in their own little way…I recall a conversation where a black person told the female he was talking to he didnt like being referred to as ‘coloured’ or ‘arf caste’ as the woman kept saying. The woman said, ” I dont like the word black, it sounds all wrong to me, anyway you’re not black black are you’…
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Randy
Related to question (1)
You say that your wife’s family would:“… likely be absolutely incredulous at such a choice, given that pale skin tone is highly prized in their culture. And I notice you also describe your “… wife’s natural skin tone is a lovely caramel color,..”
Why do you think your wife and her family (assuming she shares the same view) prize pale skin tone? Is this something you’ve discussed with her or her family before?
Related to question (2)
Your clarification needs an example to support its conclusion. Otherwise it just looks like a baseless opinion. Or simple conjecture on your part.
“…To clarify, I stated that there is a broad propensity to pantomime “the other”, of which racially-based parody is but one example, that which includes makeup being a narrower instance still, and one which is socially anathema to most people these days…
I’ve already stated there is a standard tradition of Blackface alive today in more than one country. Holland being just one example. It should be social anathema to most people, as you say, and in most countries, but that is not presently a 2012 reality as we speak.
So as I said before if you would prefer to dismiss this broader human propensity to pantomime racially idea as just a misplaced speculative thought? We can let it drop and I’ll happily replace it with another question. Otherwise please substantiate it further.
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How quickly white people like Randy and the guy in SW6′s account would believe a lovely caramel somehow is not “black”.
they are not blind, just irrational.
Why? because beautiful and interesting variations of those skin tones are the monopoly of SE Asians, and white folks seeking a tan….
“Black” for white people who think this way is the absence of tan because it is occupies blackness in their imaginations.
I would be intrigued to see what the response is to it. Meanwhile a song…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3nf4UsEdlA)
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Kwamla
Multiple standards would violate the assumption of an internalized standard. Unless one assumes multiple internalized standards. And that would violate the point of abag’s claim regarding an internalized standard. So, once again, you can’t have it both ways.
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Kwamla:
It’s no secret that light skin tone is prized in Asia. People there tend to discuss such preferences with candor, so if you bring a light-complected child into the company of motherly and grandmotherly types, you can be almost guaranteed to hear praise about their appearance. You learn to accept such comments as a feature of the landscape.
Kwamla:
Just how “alive” / common do you think blackface presentations are in the west? I rarely ever hear of any.
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@ Duckduckgoofs
Its obvious you don’t understand internalized racism. Multiple conflicting standards of beauty are what this depends on. Though of course you have to be able to view this from more than one perspective otherwise you won’t see it!
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Randy
Your last response to my careful 2 question limit now clearly illustrates a frequent charge levelled against you by Bulanik and other commentators. You are deliberately avoiding direct questions put to you.
Related to question (1)
You re-quoted my question. You’ve chosen not to address it directly. So am I to conclude you are deliberately avoiding answering it? If so just say so and I can drop it
Related to question (2)
The same applies to this question. Surely I don’t need to tell you. That a question to a question already posed does not constitute a direct answer. Again if its too difficult or uncomfortable for you to answer just say so!
Otherwise what is the point of continuing this conversation? This I can drop too…
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Kwamla:
They believe that pale skin is an indicator of class and wealth. I understood that her family shared that belief prior to us starting a family. Does that answer your question?
Kwamla:
The problem I had with your question is that it included the contestable premise: “I’ve already stated there is a standard tradition of Blackface alive today…”.
I could not answer your question in good faith without addressing what I believe to be an untrue premise.
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Randy
Related to question (1)
Ok this admission by your wife and her family is interesting because it appears to contradict your initial assessment of the practice of tanning. Lets contrast them:
“…They believe that pale skin is an indicator of class and wealth…”
And earlier in this thread you said:
“…In most traditional societies around the world, darker skin indicated outdoor work, communicating poverty / low caste.
However, following the industrial revolution in the west, tanned skin began to indicate that one had the time and resources for leisure and travel….”
And then
“…Which aspects of tanning are not explainable by class? Bulanik describes a situation in which additional factors may be present, but the general tanning issue by itself seems entirely understandable from a wealth/class perspective…”
Do you not see a contradiction in your wife’s and her family’s assessment of skin colour as an indicator of class and wealth with that of your own? You clearly don’t share the same association with pale and dark (tanned) skin do you?
Related to question (2)
“…I’ve already stated there is a standard tradition of Blackface alive today…”.
Do you really need to address this in order to substantiate your own argument as you’ve already put it:?
“.. this broader human propensity to pantomime racially ..”.
You can if you wish, if it will help. But to be honest at this stage its clear you are just prevaricating or stalling. So this is the last time I will address this question with you. I’ll assume you wish to drop it as a momentary lapse in critical thinking.
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@ Bulanik
We’ll just have to wait and see…
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Kwamla:
The apparent contradiction can be resolved by noting that my wife and her family are not from the post-industrial revolution west like I am, but rather come from Asia, where the association between fair skin and wealth persists.
As for question #2, you’ve misquoted me. Control-F and see for yourself. Rather than get hung up on semantics, perhaps you might share the greater association which you believe exists between tanning and blackface.
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@Randy:
I’m a Filipina like your wife, but I’m Canadian-born. You mentioned your wife shunned the sun and she’s still the same “caramel color”. My question to you is: Has she used products to lighten her skin? It’s a very prevalent practice over there in the Philippines so I would be surprised if she didn’t do this even once. I will admit I have used lightening agents (which didn’t work btw) to lighten freckles on my face I acquired as a kid. I’m considered fairly “light” by Filipino standards.
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Randy
Relating to question (1)
Explain how in your mind this apparent contradiction is resolved if you both share a different association of skin color with regard to wealth/class status?
Because I don’t see it? Maybe someone else does?
In fact if Leigh204’s direct experience is correct your wife’s darker skin complexion (relative to yours of course) would have changed or become lighter over the years. Would this also apply in her or her families reverence for pale skin? Or has this association now reversed?
Relating to question (2)
Surely its for YOU to re-quote YOU not me! If I’ve misquoted your argument by all means restate it as it should be.Then substantiate it. Which is all I’ve requested patiently for you to do all along.
Typical to form Randy you are plainly dodging this question. So what would be the point in me pursuing this question any further?
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Question for bi/multi-lingual people on this blog. How long did it take you to become fluent in your second language? How many languages do you know?What experience do you believe best improved your second/multiple language skills?
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leigh204:
I asked, and she didn’t recall ever having done so. Her family was pretty poor and their parents rather strict about spending the little money they did have, so maybe that played a role.
From the gravatar picture, your complexion is similar to what I’ve heard called “chinay”. Are you familiar with this term?
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Kwamla:
Her complexion would have changed only were she interested and motivated to change it, which she isn’t. As for her family, they still live in their home country and so it’s not surprising that they continue to express the opinion that lighter skin is more desirable.
Bulanik
That statement commits the error of mapping broad societal preferences onto individual people. In our particular cases, I don’t think that either of us are “admiring” or “honoring” each other’s complexions. That terminology suggests a cattle auction to me more than it describes the affinity which a couple might have for each other.
Bulanik
Not sure what you mean. A person doesn’t need to “strive” to remain their natural color, rather they simply wake up that way each day.
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Cynic
I speak English, and, a butchered Portuguese. I started trying to speak Portuguese when I was 36 years old, and, I butcher the language on a daily basis ( everyone here can see I butcher English spelling on a daily basis, which is my native langueage, so, at least I am balanced). I first used a lot of TV in Brazil to learn small phrases. It has to be rammed into my head many times over, blaring comercials are the best means. I can get around and comunicate , but, I must sound very halting in my accent and slaughtered grammer and mix up of masculine and feminine.
I should really take a course, but, Im lazy, but, at least my brain is getting a well needed workout as I age
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@ Randy:
She didn’t recall ever having done so? Strange. Somehow I find that hard to believe. Not even one time? You do realize skin lighteners/whiteners don’t just come in lotions, and creams, right? They come in different forms from pills, injections, cosmetic skin lightening/whitening treatments, body washes,and all the way down to soaps. Yes, even inexpensive soaps that can be purchased by the poor for a mere pittance.
I’ve heard of “Chinay”, but that term is commonly used for a Chinese woman born/raised in the Philippines. I have been mistaken for Chinese because of my eyes and complexion. Generally, Filipinos tend to be brown-skinned, but we come in all different hues just like the Chinay you mentioned.
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@ Bulanik:
Oh, I know what you mean. Nothing surprises me about him anymore. I was curious as to what his response would be. And you know, it’s typical Randy stuff. 😀
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@B.R. & Bulanik
Thx for the advice. I’ve been studying Spanish for a year btw. I can speak, write, and understand a decent amount, but I wouldn’t dare call myself fluent.
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@The Cynic
I’ve been studying Spanish for a year btw. I can speak, write, and understand a decent amount, but I wouldn’t dare call myself fluent.
Nevertheless, well done you. My eldest child is learning Spanish at school and , I am a proud parent as we attended Parents evening recently and they told us that they would like to enter my child for early GCSE, such is my childs acquisition of the language – a lesson which they initially loathed but we encouraged them to persevere in. Whilst it is not the ‘main’ lingua franca, it is up there nonetheless. You can go many places in the world when you have acquired ‘another’ language 🙂
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Though I have an interest in languages in general, I don’t consider myself to be fluent in language other than English.
My primary interest though, other than English, is in Romance languages. I can sort of pick my way through written Spanish and, to a lesser extent, through written French, Italian and Portuguese (there are, of course, many other Romance languages (Provençal, Romanian, Rhaeto-Romansch, Catalans etc.).
I suffer from fibromyalgia, which affects my memory and concentration. In my case, any way (as I can’t speak for other fibro sufferers), fluency in other languages is unlikely. One thing that does help me to understand/remember other languages is cognates: similar words between English and Spanish often have similar or the same meaning (but not always). Similar words, from what I’ve seen amongst Romance languages, generally do have the same meaning….though dialectal Latin American Spanish is sometimes an exception to this “rule”, as it sometimes borrows from English (e.g., “carro” = car/cart in certain Latin American dialects; whereas “coche” = car in European Spanish/Castilian), and English phrases have also crept into the French lexicon (“Franglais”), e.g., “le weekend” and “le pullover”. From what I understand, it is Latin American dialectal Spanish which is taught in US schools.
My username “Fiamma” is flame in English, flamme in French and llama in Spanish.
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Question: Does anyone know any information about asiatic black men?
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@ cleonette
Are you inquiring about the negritos that, in ancient times, are said to have occupied parts of Asia (and parts of Europe, too, for that matter)?
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@Cleonette
http://exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/index2.php
“The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean”
I know, not what you were seeking but it is still related to the information that you requested. There is a great amount of information on this site about the African presence in Asia (history-wise).
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“The three kinds of white racists”
People should avoid commenting in that thread since I missed a bracket and bold will probably be in the rest.
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https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod%3D8&q=penelope+cruz&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=CWHwT6SqFILW2gXb5uX6AQ&biw=1440&bih=787&sei=DGHwT_XoGoXD2QWv99jkAg
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tok=1y5wuRxbu0GGhriRf9sEcg&pq=italian&cp=13&gs_id=o&xhr=t&q=italian+models&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1440&bih=787&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MWHwT6KJIeOC2AXJ4fTWCg
I would also suggest there are common phenotype characteristics of Blacks that Whites in general do not try to emulate.
As for Asians wanting to look White.. there is also a wide gradient of phenotypes in every Asian country I have visited. The merchant class (eg wealthier) of South East Asia tends to be ethnic Chinese or have some Chinese heritage. Ethnic Chinese tend to have lighter skin and narrower noses than the local people of Southeast Asia.
I will go over general features about Whites as mentioned by Asian friends that they do not value.
Whites:
Men and Women: Hirsute, big noses (high and narrow noses are good.. but White noses are too big and bulbous..) freckles..(ugly spots..) Skin – lighter skin is considered good but White skin tends too ruddy. Also Caucasian skin is too coarse by Asian standards.
Women in particular:
In general hips and shoulders are too wide. Hands and feet are too big. Faces are too angular.
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Bulalinik:
Why would sunblock be a million dollar industry?
Because if one has a light complexion you can get scorched in the Summer (or even Spring and Fall) sun if you don’t slowly build up exposure with tanning. Skin cancer and other forms of damage to the skin is a drag. Either because of aging or depletion of the ozone layer I have taken to wearing sun block in the summer, because if I don’t my nose and to a lesser extent the rest of my will turn red in the sun. There are merits to progressively darkening ones skin to prevent damage.
As for Whites wanting to look Black.. I can’t probe into the minds of millions of Whites or Blacks (unlike the almighty Bliff..) but I don’t really get the impression that most Whites in the US want to look Black nor vice versa for that matter. You’re in the UK aren’t you…? Perhaps the situation is different there.. I wouldn’t know.
As there is a wide phenotype variety within Africans there is also wide phehotype variety with Whites. The people in the photographs below are White in general they have (somewhat) darker skin than your average White Briton or American along with fuller lips and more ample backsides.
https://www.google.com/search?aq=f&sugexp=chrome,mod%3D8&q=penelope+cruz&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=CWHwT6SqFILW2gXb5uX6AQ&biw=1440&bih=787&sei=DGHwT_XoGoXD2QWv99jkAg
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tok=1y5wuRxbu0GGhriRf9sEcg&pq=italian&cp=13&gs_id=o&xhr=t&q=italian+models&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1440&bih=787&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=MWHwT6KJIeOC2AXJ4fTWCg
I would also suggest there are common phenotype characteristics of Blacks that Whites in general do not try to emulate.
As for Asians wanting to look White.. there is also a wide gradient of phenotypes in every Asian country I have visited. The merchant class (eg wealthier) of South East Asia tends to be ethnic Chinese or have some Chinese heritage. Ethnic Chinese tend to have lighter skin and narrower noses than the local people of Southeast Asia.
I will go over general features about Whites as mentioned by Asian friends that they do not value.
Whites:
Men and Women: Hirsute, big noses (high and narrow noses are good.. but White noses are too big and bulbous..) freckles..(ugly spots..) Skin – lighter skin is considered good but White skin tends too ruddy. Also Caucasian skin is too coarse by Asian standards.
Women in particular:
In general hips and shoulders are too wide. Hands and feet are too big. Faces are too angular.
By the way the previous post was in error and incomplete.. had problems with my browser.
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To Bulanik:
It has been my observation that many, many white people in the British Isles (and elsewhere in Northern Europe) want to be tanned.
But, I’ve NEVER heard it said, whilst listening to any conversations about “getting a tan”, that the aspirants wish to be “tanned like a Spaniard”, or an Italian, for that matter. Penelope Cruz or any other South European name is not mentioned as the “gold standard”
Do these White Europeans state that they think Black people are the gold standard,,? Maybe they think that but I personally don’t get that impression from White Americans. Not that White Americans generally state that they want to look Italian or Spanish but if they are interested in modifying their lips, backsides, and skin tone then I would say the alterations would be closer to the average Roman or Spaniard than your average African American.
You are talking about Africa, and you to recognize that there is a wide phenotype variety within Africans.
Meant to say African Americans, which also have a wide variety of phenotypes but at least from photographs, movies, and the Africans I have met generally not as wide as the people from the continent of Africa.
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To Bulanik:
I take it that you do not include India when you say “Asia”
Yeah.. I know in the UK and I think elsewhere in Europe.. when people speak of Asians they are often talking about people from India, Pakistan or Bangladesh. I have not spoken with people from those areas about skin tone and the like. I am referring to East Asia and people who originate from the region.
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@Bulanik
It has been my observation that many, many white people in the British Isles (and elsewhere in Northern Europe) want to be tanned.
Not one but two individuals that I have come across this weekend have expressed despair about their ‘pale’ skin. One intends to use some fo that fake tan stuff, the other, to go on a sunbed for a few sessions. The latter says when her legs are like this she will not wear any clothing that exposes her legs.
But, I’ve NEVER heard it said, whilst listening to any conversations about “getting a tan”, that the aspirants wish to be “tanned like a Spaniard”, or an Italian, for that matter. Penelope Cruz or any other South European name is not mentioned as the “gold standard”
Odd, isnt it but, neither have I. Having recently just had a birthday, 🙂 I can say that I have spent 30 odd years of my life either experiencing or witnessing WP say ‘i’m almost as brown as….’ and it is ALWAYS to a PoC. The ‘Closer’ they deem themself to be to that individual in terms of hue, the more thrilled they are. So desperate are they to share their ‘browness’ off, you will find them wearing the flimsiest of T-Shirts, regardless of weather conditions at times too.
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Do these White Europeans state that they think Black people are the gold standard,,?
By constantly saying to black people ‘i’m almost the same colour as you…’ it seems that to WP in Europe, the bar to reach is that of a skin shade of a BP. Though I am sure it is difficult for some to believe…..
I am bemused by the subtle attempts of individuals on here who, in their own little way, are trying to deny the fact that SOME WP might admire and desire black skin shades, enough to want to emulate them.
I dont think you understand, these individuals will have nothing to lose and in fact, will constantly be complimented on how healthy and bronzed their skin is. They will be ‘safe’ doing this, after all, their ethnicity wont change – they wont have to endure any other aspect of living the life of a BP.
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To Demerera:
By constantly saying to black people ‘i’m almost the same colour as you…’ it seems that to WP in Europe, the bar to reach is that of a skin shade of a BP. Though I am sure it is difficult for some to believe…..
Ok, now that you say that.. I do remember White people in the US making such comments but generally only to or in the presence of a darker POC. Maybe they are being sincere or maybe not but it basically sounds like that’s their way of bonding. I can’t recall a White person making the same kinds of comments when there were only White people around.
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To Demerara:
I am bemused by the subtle attempts of individuals on here who, in their own little way, are trying to deny the fact that SOME WP might admire and desire black skin shades, enough to want to emulate them.
Well if a White person dates or marries a Black person.. I would say it is very likely that they admire and desire darker skin shades if not in themselves then in their partner.
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Take a look at the body builders and their fake tans. How about that?
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@Lara
Being really tan isn’t necessarily healthy for a white person. Depending on genetics, they could be putting themselves at risk for skin cancer
I know there are health implications Lara. I am not the one putting myself at risk to seek this ‘ideal’ skin tone. It is the WP who desire to be tanned that are. I would be very surprised if there isnt anyone on the planet who doesnt know about the dangers of over exposure to the sun – tanning can be and is a risky business.
I once worked with a woman who was fit healthy, tanned but also wrinkled, as a result she felt, of too much exposure to the sun and poor protection for years. Regardless of wrinkles, she said ‘I don’t care how wrinkly my skin gets as long as I get brown, the browner the better’
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To Sam:
Take a look at the body builders and their fake tans. How about that?
FWIW, I copied and pasted comments from a search on body building and tanning.
” But the truth is, regardless of your natural skin color, tanning or at least a base covering is needed when presenting your physique on stage for a competition. There are many reasons. The lights used for stage illumination are quite different from that of natural light or the lights we use in our homes. The stage lights are bright and a person’s skin tone will get washed out if not protected with a tanning product. The darker the skin, the easier it will be for judges to evaluate a person’s body conditioning and muscular development when compared to the other athletes on stage. You want the judges to see the lines that complement your physique by attaining a golden color that will be captured by this type of lighting.”
“Another likely explanation is to counteract the side effects of steroid use. Using steroids at high doses will frequently cause severe acne breakouts on the arms, back and face, primarily. Bodybuilders have learned that heavy tanning both reduces the likelihood/severity of the outbreak and helps disguise those acne sores that do appear.”
“They’ve been bronzed alive! –But to be helpful, I think it is for the same reason they shave/wax any and all body hair. They want their muscles visible.”
“The old-school reasoning is that the darker color makes muscle tone appear more ripped and cut.”
“Yeah, looking at that picture, the gleam of the lights is white, so by making the skin color darker you’re increasing contrast between your skintone and the highlights.”
“Yep, it’s for definition. For the record, pretty much everyone who performs under bright lights either self-tans like that, or puts on really exaggerated make-up (stage makeup). I used to know a bunch of girls involved in gymnastics and calisthenics, and they would all self-tan to a horrific shade of orange for performances.”
“You can actually apply it in such a way to add to the appearance of definition…put more in areas that you want to appear darker along side a muscle that you want to have stand out.”
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To Demerara:
I don’t care how wrinkly my skin gets as long as I get brown, the browner the better
Egad, she would be better off getting medication to darken her skin.
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Demerera writes: “By constantly saying to black people ‘i’m almost the same colour as you[…]it seems that to WP in Europe[….]”
– – –
It’s been said to me on several different occasions; I’m in NYC. The phrase they use with me, though, is: ” I can get even DARKER than YOU when I tan!” (my complexion is a light honey–a bit darker than Kim Khardashian’s complexion)
This is typically delivered with a smirk and air of smugness. Somehow, I always feel like the person is trying to “one up” me, and I never know how I’m expected to respond to such declarations (“Umm, okay…congratulations!”). I think I’ve always pretty much just stood there dumbfounded….
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To Bulanik:
RE: The video you posted, I see you and raise you:
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@Uncle Milton
Well if a White person dates or marries a Black person.. I would say it is very likely that they admire and desire darker skin shades if not in themselves then in their partner.
No Milton. I see here you are still trying to suggest that whilst WP might find black skin attractive on others, they don’t/wont/couldn’t find it attractive on themselves.
In the examples I gave these individuals want to see this on their own skins ‘go brown/get a tan’ and they revel in being able to compare how successful their attempts to catch the sun have been by comparing skin with PoC – hence the glee and pleasure when they can say ‘i’m nearly as brown as you’.
Try and refute it as much as you like. It is not vacation time in the UK and there is (as is common) a serious lack of sunshine at the moment but, once the holiday season is underway and people return from holidaying abroad, the above will be said frequently.
This seems difficult for you to come to terms with but . It matters not whether this leaves you or I confused, baffled or downright incredulous – some people, regardless of risk, want to brown themselves to emulate the skin hue of PoC and often don’t feel they have tanned successfully until they do.
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@
Demerara:I don’t care how wrinkly my skin gets as long as I get brown, the browner the better
Egad, she would be better off getting medication to darken her skin.
I agree but, I think she is a sun worshipper so I guess it wouldnt be the same for her
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@ Demerera:
Yes, I get this ALL the time. I’ve had white co-workers who admit using self-tanners or tanning beds, and they stand next to me, proceed to roll up their sleeves and place their arm against mine, and say, “Look! We’re almost the same color! You’re so lucky! I wish I was born with your skin.” It’s annoying when this happens.
Btw, Happy Belated Birthday, Demerera! 🙂
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@Leigh
Btw, Happy Belated Birthday, Demerera!
Thank you x
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To Bulanik:
It might be a little narrow to lazily call East Asians simply ‘Asians’.
Yes it is lazy, Asian American often refers to people whose origins are from East Asia and sometimes from India but more often in the US.. people of Asian Indian decent are called Indian or Indian American.
Western Asians – For Yemenis, Iraqis, Iranians, etc I have never heard the term Asian but generally Middle Eastern or Arabic.. even though the latter term would not apply to Iranians.
Also I have never heard Tajiks, Uzbeks (I know two Uzbek women..) Khazaks called Asian even though their countries of origin are in Asia.
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@Bulanik
Happy birthday, brown sugar!
Lol – Thanks Bulanik
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@bulanik:
I agree. Asia is pretty diverse and it is good to know are we talking about afgans or japanese, just to name two nations. And on the same note, there are several ethnic groups in Afganistan too: uzbeks, tadziks, pashtun etc.
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@bulanik:
“Those body builders should put on that peaches ‘n’ cream makeup colour on their bodies to show how good they can look!” 😀
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To Bulanik:
Are you telling me that white American women who seek this surgical enhancement ask for a Penelope Cruz booty, over Beyonces’ curves?
Well I am not a plastic surgeon but I do know one so I can ask him if you wish. I sort of doubt that women are usually that specific about wanting to look like famous women. (I am sure there are examples that do..) To my eyes, the end results for White women who have had surgery to their backsides seem closer to what I would consider some spectacular Spanish backsides (I did take a careful study about 25 years ago in Valencia, Spain.. ) than Beyonce. In my opinion nothing wrong with either look.
Do you think it’s to “to bond”? I think they are saying how nice they look when a tanned white person is saying that.
I would hope that is the reason they are saying it.
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To Bulanik:
South Asians are called American Indians and Indian?
No.. Indian or Indian Americans… In the US the term American Indians almost always refers to the indigenous people or Native Americans. Canada has some separate terms, First Nations.. etc.
And yes sometimes there is confusion when using the term Indian…on occasion I have seen people write things on blogs or comments like “dot not feather..” but I consider this offensive and would never use it except to describe it’s usage.
This is VERY confusing.
Hmm.. I think you are joking, but all I can say is I didn’t come up with the terms.
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Happy belated B-day Demerera. I’m always so late wishing happy b-days ><.
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@deedee7789
Happy belated B-day Demerera. I’m always so late wishing happy b-days
Awww, thank you. You are not late – this is the first time I mentioned it
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To Bulanik:
But I have never heard of women getting cosmetic surgery to get a flat Spanish behind.
No they pay for rounded backsides such as this Spanish example:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-N21lum68ESvRs5lDEsZery7AvIiIMpPguQ7B_ckWjM1ie-4DJIE0G84F3w
I didn’t say there was anything wrong with either look, did I?
I never implied that you did. “ In my opinion nothing wrong with either look.”
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Are we saying that people getting cosmetic surgery go in and say ‘I want a Spanish A$$’ as opposed to saying ‘I want an A$$ like J Lo, or Beyonce’? My goodness – must be very difficult to determine. There is no ‘standard’ Spanish A$$ is there? I could certainly see someone specifying an individual in the media though.
Think about it this way – when Jennifer Anniston had her hair cut and styled ‘that way’ there were hordes of women going to the hairdressers and asking for this style. Same with Lady Diana. I remember loads of girls and women having their Barnet done with the Lady Di style and, they would go in and specifically ask for it at the hairdressers.
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To Bulanik:
I have been around cosmetic surgeons – and women who employ them – and you can be sure they talk about and name people.
Are you in the US..?
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To Demerara:
There is no ‘standard’ Spanish A$$ is there?
Nope and I would suggest there is not a standard Black backside either. But in general I would say Spanish women have rounder backsides than say British women but perhaps not as round as Black American women.
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@Lara
I’ve never heard of a woman getting plastic surgery on her derriere other than liposuction.
I saw a programme called ‘Embarrasing Bodies’ recently where an individual had ‘bum implants’ that had ruptured…
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@Uncle Milton
Nope and I would suggest there is not a standard Black backside either. But in general I would say Spanish women have rounder backsides than say British women but perhaps not as round as Black American women.
Suffice to say this descriptor is too generic to enable a competent and ethical surgeon to even begin to undergo surgery on an individual. Now, if they had a definitive A$$ to work with as an example, that would be different….
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To Bulanik:
privileging the Spanish example from olden days, and pasting the indistinct profile of the example featured in the link?
Because I don’t have a photo montage of the olden days..? That’s Penelope Cruz’s derriere. by the way. Not the most pronounced I would agree but I don’t think it’s looks like a boy’s behind. Granted I tend not to study boys’ behinds nor do I plan on starting.
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@Demerera…
Awww, your 30 today? Will be there sooner than i want to admit.
Happy Birthday!
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To Demerera:
Suffice to say this descriptor is too generic to enable a competent and ethical surgeon to even begin to undergo surgery on an individual.
I am sire they go into details as to how much they want to change. I am sure some women say I want a Jlo butt or something to that effect. but the surgeone would have to work with the woman’s hip, leg, and waist size to get the proportions right.
FWIW this link indicates that butt augmentations are not that common in the US:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/medicine/surgeries-procedures/20-most-common-plastic-surgeries1.htm
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This reminds me of a time i got invited to a birthday party as a kid. I was 7 and there was only one white girl at the party. We settled down to eat hot dogs and this particular kid sat across from me face to face as we ate. She and i were chit chatting and out of the blue she just blurted out;
Did you know i’m black.
Now this kid was white as milk with blue clear eyes and very light blond hair. I think i may responded with uhhh…
Now at 7 i had no inkling of the history of race, but i knew she wasn’t black. I could not tell whether she was sincere or if she felt that because all the other kids were black she needed to say something to feel a sense of solidarity. So that i would not be confused, i purposefully avoided play with her for the remainder of the party.
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“So that i would not be confused, i purposefully avoided play with her for the remainder of the party.”
***********
Pheobe
Would you have played with her if she had not said that she was black??
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PheobeWould you have played with her if she had not said that she was black??
Yes. I was having a good time with her until she said that. I guess a part of me just didn’t understand why? It wasn’t like i had ever been told by a black girl play mate that she was indeed white.
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The course of this discussion expresses what I’ve called racial “narcissism”, that is the tendency to conclude that unrelated topics are not only presumed to involve race, but that they likely fall on a white (European) to black (African) axis.
One can see examples of this perspective in the double-eyelid post, earlier discussions about tanning, and now in this subtopic. I believe the trend presents in matters more impactful than the merely cosmetic, but here we can see it on open display.
The assertion that westerners who tan are, in the main, attempting to look “black” is as far as I can observe unsupported. Yes Bulanik, “black” skin presents in a wide array of color tones from light to dark, but so does potato skin.
Therefore, allow me to engage in a similar bit of speculation and suggest that the tanning industry in the west, from its inception to present day, underpins a broad desire by lighter-hued westerners to resemble potatoes.
I await your accolades…
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My Alma Mater.
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Not a sock puppet, posting from another PC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_M._Young_Gifted_%26_Talented_Leadership_Academy
My Alma Matter
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I forget to change the user name. May seem like a bunch of explaining but I want to stay as transparent as I can for future commentary.
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I think that the tan became associated with health and healthy outdoor living during the late 1800’s and early 1900’s when the poor who worked in mines and factories and lived in slums in most terrible conditions where distinctively pale in complexion. One of the causes of this paleness were TB and other associated diseases of the so called poor. This happened after 1880’s when they discovered that TB was actually a transmitted disease and not some romantic way for the white people to die, like in Tolstois novels etc.
Also in some more “romantic” white eyes black and brown people where more “natural”, savages but also more genuine aitem in their appearance, and thus the darker skin color was more genuine and so something to be desidered. Ad I guess this still holds in some corners of the world. Brown is healthy and pale is not, so lets go to solarium or hit the beaches. As for the body builders, they say the darker you are the better muscle definition you get, so the darker you are the better it is.
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@ Buanik
LOL!!!
Thats very compassionate of you. I sincerely hope Randy appreciates that video!
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http://www.wnd.com/2012/07/black-mobs-now-beating-jews-in-new-york/
one would know that mobs of black people are attacking and beating and robbing Jews in the New York area. Or that they shout anti-Semitic epithets. Or that they target Jews because “they don’t fight back.”
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“…I am bemused by the subtle attempts of individuals on here who, in their own little way, are trying to deny the fact that SOME WP might admire and desire black skin shades, enough to want to emulate them…”
@ Bulanik & Demerera
I too find this an interesting observation about some of the resident white folks on here. While its so obvious and apparent it shines like a second sun. I wonder..
What would it mean to be publicly admitting of your love for Darker skin?
What would it mean as an acknowledged global planetary minority in a sea of peoples of varying shades of colour. To be seen desirous of light to dark and even jet Black skin tones as opposed to lily white colourless pastel ones?
I am curious…What would it mean, as a white person, to have to admit this to yourself? Would it make you feel less of a person? Less of a truly white person perhaps?
Given much of discussion and comments about the denial and usage of tanning products here I wonder….?
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@phoebeprunelle
Awww, your 30 today? Will be there sooner than i want to admit
Happy Birthday!
Alas, slightly more than this but, I will take it as I will be leaving this decade all to soon. Thanks for the birthday greetings though 🙂
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@Kwamla
What would it mean to be publicly admitting of your love for Darker skin?
I am wondering this myself. Are we seeing examples here of individuals who view this skin shade with distaste or, is it more than this? Do individuals feel this would be somehow a betrayal of ‘whiteness’ by emulating ‘browness’.
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Kwamla:
“Colourless”? Careful, friend. That last sentence edges on prejudicial colorism.
Kwamla:
I find darker skinned women attractive. I even married one.
My push back arises from the suggestion that this inherently and necessarily involves “black people” (i.e. people of African descent). That’s a bit of narcissistic Afrocentrism, don’t you think?
See “Randy’s Potato Theory” for an alternative and equally proven explanation.
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@Randy
My push back arises from the suggestion that this inherently and necessarily involves “black people” (i.e. people of African descent). That’s a bit of narcissistic Afrocentrism, don’t you think?
In the instances described above, it DOES involve ‘black people’, or PoC i.e. the people who offered those examples and had these experiences. BP who are often of rich and varied descent including African.
Leigh as a ‘non white’ also gave her own personal example so, you can see that the parameters are broader than just those you indicate above.
Nothing wrong with ‘lovin the skin you’re in’ and appreciating the admiriation of others who express a desire to emulate this…
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Has anyone seen this campaign about racial awareness in Duluth, Minnesota by the YWCA? It sounds great to me, but I’d like to know what everyone else thinks about it.
(http://unfaircampaign.org/action/stop-it/)
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@ Randy
“…“Colourless”? Careful, friend. That last sentence edges on prejudicial colorism….”
I wonder. How would you describe your self from a colorless perspective?
And why would you seek to exclude people of African descent (skin tone: Black) from a classification with other peoples of colour. (for example: your wife who you describe as having a caramel skin tone?)
Again I wonder…Review Demerera last comment to you if it helps.
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I await your accolades…
Here are my accolades Randy:
http://ts4.explicit.bing.net/th?id=I4608487656850223&pid=1.1
and
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BinM0GtR_sY)
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@ Herneith:
Hahahaha! I love your wit and sense of humour. I hope you’re having a great summer so far. Btw, though it was yesterday, Happy Canada Day! 🙂
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Demerera,
A non-black person comparing their skin to a black person’s doesn’t imply that the non-black person was attempting to mimic the black person’s appearance, nor does it suggest that this is a motivation for most non-black people who tan.
That’s quite a leap to assume so.
Leigh gave a good counterexample to the racial narcissism. A recent commenter to the “double-eyelid surgery” post also did likewise.
Kwamla:
Did you mean “non-colorist” perspective? I’m happy to help you to discover less pejorative ways to describe those different from you.
A pane of clear glass is “colorless”. You might consider representing the complexion of lighter-colored European-descended peoples in terms of common associations, such as “peach” or “ivory.”
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@ Lara
So, what’s your excuse?
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I think one can offer the reverse opinion of the term “Person of Color”, making all non-Whites sound foreign, and have it be just as valid.
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@Randy
Randy said:- A non-black person comparing their skin to a black person’s doesn’t imply that the non-black person was attempting to mimic the black person’s appearance, nor does it suggest that this is a motivation for most non-black people who tan.
That’s quite a leap to assume so.
What do you make of this statement Randy, said with glee and pleasure from said WP “I’m almost the same colour as you”
What is presumptuous is for you to continually assume that people follow your approach to tanning, Some people do revel in turning ‘brown’ and being able to ‘compare’ with said BP.
@Lara
Demerera,
So every time a black woman straightens her hair I am going to assume she wants to look exactly like me. Don’t you see how self absorbed that is? I think most people are happy to look like themselves with maybe some minor improvements.
Some BP do think this way Lara but, unless I heard a BW saying that she wants hair like a WW, I would merely assume she is trying to adapt her hair to some kind of style or trend. Maybe some WP feel a minor improvement is to tan and have skin the same shade as a BP – do you see how that might be the case?
&
I can’t stand the term “person of color”. We are all of some color, as Randy pointed out. I think it is just a way to put white people down and make it sound like we’re bland.
Clearly you are entitled to your opinion but please, be careful not to project and intimate that I meant this by this term.
I think though, this is the crux of the issue here – that somehow some commenters feel insulted when mention is made of WP who are sun worshippers and seek that bronzed brown look.
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Sorry to break it to you Lara but white people were the ones to separate themselves from the rest of the world and added color prefixes to peoples’ lives, thus making themselves the default humans. Can’t expect to have your cake and eat it too. If black people ‘obsess’ about skin, then it’s only because we’ve learned from the best.
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I find it ironic when clueless, white people try to project their perspective onto black people and other people of color.
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I think nearly everyone falls into this category. Humans are vain creatures.
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@ Bulanik:
I believe it was Randy referring to a poster named blah in the “Asian Double Eyelid Surgery” thread. Here’s what blah commented:
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@Bulanik
I’m starting to get the feeling that the WP here think their feelings are more important.
Yes. They are feeling insulted at the moment with all this talk of ‘wannabe brown’ WP.
I also get the feeling that they wish BLACK PEOPLE would be shut the f*ck up about their skin tone.
Yes. There are under and over tones of “BP are saying their skin tone is better than WP – we cant have this”. “Lets try and convey that ALL skin tones are nice………………whilst implying that some skin tones are much nicer than others and see if they notice”.
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@ Bulanik:
No, I don’t think so either. And I know people who had Asian eyelid surgery and they never, ever went up to white people to compare they had round eyes like them. You know why? ‘Cuz only weird folks would do that.
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@Lara
I think it is because black people are very into physical beauty and body worship, and enjoy talking about it.
@Someguy
I think nearly everyone falls into this category. Humans are vain creatures.
I would go a stage further and urge Lara to look at some of the blogs on here which discuss the Beauty of BW and the WP who clearly search for blogs of this kind and purposefully comment on detailing in every which way they find BW to be the opposite of anything aesthetically pleasing, beautiful etc. Would you say these WP are obsessed because they deliberately go looking for blogs where they can run BW down into the ground?
Yes Lara, as Someguy’ says, nearly everyone falls into this category as nearly everyone has their own idea of beauty.
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@Leigh
You know why? ‘Cuz only weird folks would do that.
LOL
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxzhiyQj6zI)
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I guess Maxim, Cosmo (and all the other like mags), bottle blondes, an entertainment industry filled to the brim of ‘good looking’ people of little talent, bulemia, tanning (which is ironically the subject discussed here) are all going on because white people aren’t very into physical beauty and body worship! No, you can’t see that as something white people do because they are ‘raceless’, they’re just individuals, and yet you can clearly point it out when black people partake in some vanity, it becomes a ‘black thing’ .Which goes right back to my previous comment.
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*bulimia
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Demerera: I’m attempting to critique the idea that tanning is necessarily a manifestation of the desire of light colored westerners to look black. I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t happen, although one could argue that even a person making such a statement isn’t indicating that they are attempting to acquire the specific appearance of an Africa-descended person, only that their skin tone is similar.
Kwamla, in a previous comment, stated that tanning was somehow related to blackface. Goodness!
“Gen”, in a comment a few items above, offers another example of this tendency, as though colorism doesn’t exist outside of some racial axis. Similarly, quite a few people of similar ideological comportment attempt to advance the case that Asian eyelid surgery must similarly have something to do with race.
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@ Demerera:
I mean, really. Who in their right mind would do that?
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@Randy
I’m not suggesting that it doesn’t happen, although one could argue that even a person making such a statement isn’t indicating that they are attempting to acquire the specific appearance of an Africa-descended person, only that their skin tone is similar.
Whilst you may not be suggesting that it doesnt happen, your responses reflect that it is, in your opinion, highly unlikely. Your opinion seems quite subjective and is not I sense, uninfluenced by your own personal perspective on such matters.
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@Gen
‘good looking’ people of little talent, bulemia, tanning (which is ironically the subject discussed here) are all going on because white people aren’t very into physical beauty and body worship!
Lara – Gen has a good point here.
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@Lara
I’m British American
Is that down to your parentage? Just interested – hope you dont think I am prying.
I can’t say I’m really proud of my skin tone…
Shame to feel that way about yourself Lara – always have pride in who you are 🙂
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@Lara
I am aware someone did a study that said black men are more attractive than black women. Maybe, but most black men I see around are pretty average looking.
So does this mean that BW are less than average looking then?
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Following my question to Lara above, unless I am mistaken, this conversation about ‘tanning’ has come full circle . We see accusations about the so called narcassistic PoV of Black/PoC commenters, and white commenters refuting such statements, apparently not on the basis of racial bias yet, the statement from Lara seems to suggest otherwise!!!!! Of course, I could be imagining it…
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Lara,
Are you the same “Lara” that was on here months ago? Forgive me, but you’re starting to sound like her which is frightening.
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@Lara
Black women have made it clear that their ideal is a tall, dark and handsome black man. Why would any white man try to compete with that? He is going to focus on women who would be attracted to him.
Where on earth has this come from…?
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To Demerera:
Yes. They are feeling insulted at the moment with all this talk of ‘wannabe brown’ WP.
Not for me… I can’t speak for Randy or Lara but personally I don’t care if some White person wants to be… well I thought it was Black but you switched it to Brown…fine.. but I don’t think the phenomenon is that common at least where I live..(Silicon Valley.. same latitude as Sicily..) but I realize there are regional differences. Also If you look at my first post of the subject I also stated that I thought that in general Asians don’t want to look White. There is a push in our society by various industries for people to be dissatisfied with their looks because there is money to made. Tanning salons for Whites, hair relaxers for Blacks, lightening creams for Asians. Personally I think in general people look best natural.
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A lot of American Black women do exalt dark skinned Black men to the detriment/exclusion of lighter skinned Black men.
Some have no qualms in stating their preference for dark skinned men (“the darker/blacker, the better”) while making a point of excluding light skinned Black men (“weak”, effeminate, “pretty boys”). In all honesty, as a lighter skinned Black woman, I’ve had darker skinned Black women to get upset with me for dating/being accompanied by a dark AND Black men for dating/being in the company of men my on complexion or lighter.
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Correction: I’ve had darker skinned Black women AND Black men to get upset with me for dating/being in the company of men my on complexion or lighter.
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To Bulanik:
In reply, Uncle Milton said:
“Well if a White person dates or marries a Black person.. I would say it is very likely that they admire and desire darker skin shades if not in themselves then in their partner.”
Bulanik said: Uncle Milton contradicts himself a fair bit, doesn’t he.
Why do you that’s a contradiction..?
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Demerera:
Having grown up in a 90%+ white area, I can state with some confidence that the vast majority of people I’ve known over the years who sought a tan were not trying to appear as another race, but rather wanted to look as though they’d been to the beach or on a vacation, or at the very least get rid of their “high-latitude / office drone” pallor.
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@Randy
Having grown up in a 90%+ white area, I can state with some confidence that the vast majority of people I’ve known over the years who sought a tan were not trying to appear as another race, but rather wanted to look as though they’d been to the beach or on a vacation, or at the very least get rid of their “high-latitude / office drone” pallor.
To be fair, I dont recall saying that the people you knew or grew up with thought like this. I also dont recall saying that this applied to majority WP – just the WP in my experience. It seems that my response to you was correct – that you just dont get it because it is not something that you or your peers aspire to…but that doesnt mean that others aren’t…..
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@Lara
What white movie stars do you think you think look natural?
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A big problem with African American women is their weight. They look really good as teenagers and then get fat by their 20′s. I’ve had white men tell me that young black women have some of the best bodies. Curvy is nice, but a lot of these women are just overweight.
”
”
”
Wow. What can you say that you know about Black bodies as a White woman? I wouldn’t even care if you told me you were a doctor or a geneticist that specialized on Black female muscle and fat distributions: i would still you call you out on this b.s. because there has been no such research supporting this claim. Besides that, it just reeks of race realist demagoguery.
And what about the typical White overweight female shape: the pear? God knows ive seen that in abundance in the USA, Canada and Europe.
Care to retract that?
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Lara,
Are you the same “Lara” that was on here months ago? Forgive me, but you’re starting to sound like her which is frightening.
She’s baaaaack!!!!!!!
@Leigh:
Happy Canada Day!!!!
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@ JT…pear-shaped figures can be nice. I have one. All it means generally is a small/medium bust, a slim waist, and big hips. But for some reason women with pear-shaped bodies often get a bad rap. I’m not sure why this is. Maybe because the hourglass shape is coveted and it is often considered to be the best. You make a really good point, though.
@ Lara…I would say that most women, regardless of race, are “average-looking”. Average simply means a look that is fairly common. One can be average and still be attractive. I would say that Jennifer Aniston is average (plain Jane, really) but lots of people seem to find her very appealing. And although you are correct that *some* Black women are obese/overweight, this is not limited to Black women. Obesity is an issue with many people today. You can throw a rock and hit about 30 fat white women where I live. So it isn’t really about race. Diet, genetics, health and other factors come into play where weight is concerned. And JT is correct in that there are differences in the way fat is distributed sometimes. I’ve noticed that some fat white women have more of an “apple” shape. Like big boobs, a big tummy, love handles, narrow hips, then they turn around and their behinds will be completely flat. But as with many things, there are exceptions. I have also seen bigger white women who are very pretty and they carry themselves well.
Also, bear in mind that standards of beauty are somewhat different. I am of mixed race but I grew up in a mostly AA community. Skinny girls weren’t really sought after by most guys. Whereas in the typical middle-class, predominantly white community, a size 8 or 10 is considered “fat” to some white men. So it depends on how you look at it. Some Black people made me feel like shit growing up because I wasn’t “thick” enough in their eyes. If you weren’t stacked and full-figured, you would be ridiculed. But I’m sure that some of the white girls with bigger frames probably wanted to be tiny like me, because that is what is considered beautiful in their world. It all depends on how you see things.
@ Fiamma…my experiences with dating have been somewhat similar to yours. But I’m married now (to a white guy) and I don’t care what people have to say about it.
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JT,
It’s histrionic responses like yours which suggests someone who is either an inauthentic personality attempting to discredit the side which is nominally supported, or else a naif blinkered by PC programming.
For your edification: http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsobesityadults/dsobesityadults_270px.gif
Summary:
Obesity among US adults 2006-2008:
White, non Hispanic women: 21.8%
Black, non Hispanic women: 39.2%
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@ Herneith & Brothawolf
Its like listening to the same broken record. This is definitely the same Lara. I thought she was banned by Abagond?
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@ Randy
You see Randy even when you’re given the opportunity to wax lyrically about your own personal appearance you fail to do so. Are you really proud of the skin your in? I don’t think so. Even Lara couldn’t admit to this.
Forgive me…But I too grew up in a predominantly white country and neighbour hood.(80%) When I attended school I was the only Black person in it! So forgive me for assuming an extensive knowledge of white folk.
I notice you do not describe yourself as “peach or ivory”. (You describe your wife proudly as caramel) Why not? Given this would be a fair description. Its my experience (and please correct me if I am wrong) that white people do not describe their skin appearance in positive glowing tones as you mistakenly indicate and the comments in this thread testify to. They would like to. And like you have even attempted to. But they never seem to be able to adopt this “peach and ivory” description en-mass. Perhaps Randy has theory to explain this?
“… I wonder. How would you describe your self from a colorless perspective?…
I see this was probably too overly indepth in analysis for you to grasp Randy. it was intended to speak to several concepts multidimensionally. A common theme amongst white people who deny racism is that they don’t see colour?
You Randy do not see or acknowledge the way race cuts across our views. Shaping and colouring our perspectives on life which includes our relationships. So does class and gender but none can cancel out the other’s perspective. They are all inclusive in how we see and view our world. In other words we view the world from a multiple of perspectives not singular ones.
You frequently will try to reduce and explain your perspective of the world through singular concepts such as Class then fail miserably at acknowledging the role that race also plays (see Randy’s Potatoes skin theory LOL!!!)
This is one good reason why you’re unable to make any connection between the need for white people to tan themselves or dress up parading themselves in Blackface. Both are sub-concious practices of a desire to be and emulate colour as opposed to colourlessness. They don’t see themselves as people of colour. (POC). Its also why most white people hate this term because they feel excluded from being apart of this global club. Who said “peach or ivory” were not colours?
So the question again comes back to you Randy are you proud of the skin you’re in? And how would you describe your own skin tone?
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JT,
It’s histrionic responses like yours which suggests someone who is either an inauthentic personality attempting to discredit the side which is nominally supported, or else a naif blinkered by PC programming.
For your edification: http://www.cdc.gov/features/dsobesityadults/dsobesityadults_270px.gif
Summary:
Obesity among US adults 2006-2008:
White, non Hispanic women: 21.8%
Black, non Hispanic women: 39.2%
”
”
”
@ Randy,
Yes, i’ve read your theory about me before. Doesn’t stop you from repeating it though does it? Like a slanderous broken record. Too bad that can’t be added to the broken record thread.
And yeah, Lara took a shot at Black, female, bodies, rather stupidly, if you ask me. She is busy talking ish about how Black women ” get fat by their 20′s.” Where the heck does that come from? What gives her the right to talk ish about Black body types?
Please elaborate since you too are convinced that Black females get fat by their 20’s as Lara stated.
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pear-shaped figures can be nice. I have one. All it means generally is a small/medium bust, a slim waist, and big hips. But for some reason women with pear-shaped bodies often get a bad rap. I’m not sure why this is. Maybe because the hourglass shape is coveted and it is often considered to be the best. You make a really good point, though.
@ CinammonDiva,
i respect all body types. This comment was hinged to Lara’s gross statements about Black females getting fat which i still take offense to even though she tried to rectify it and Randy provided support with his statistics.
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@ Lara,
Ignorance, unchecked, implicates everyone.
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Kwamla:
I’m not a “wax lyrical about my personal appearance” kind of guy. I have observed vain people doing this, and it doesn’t interest me as an activity.
Kwamla:
If I were to speculate, I’d guess that this very recent phenomenon you describe is perhaps explainable in significant measure by the modern western media not describing light skin favorably. In Asia, where light skin is still favorably described by the media, one hears a great deal of lyrical waxing about it.
I frequently hear such comments by Asian people in regards to my children. Sometimes it’s a bit much, but when people are trying to be nice, I generally cut them a good deal of slack even if I don’t particularly care for what’s being said.
Kwamla:
You are, of course generally correct. However, not all models of the world are equally accurate, which provides room for discussion and debate. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for one person to offer evidence that one model is more aligned to observable reality than another, and for other persons to offer counter-evidence.
Tanning is a recent phenomenon, and so its history is widely available. The bulk of the evidence suggests class / economics as a primary cause. Feel free to offer evidence to the contrary.
Kwamla:
I’m not “proud” of my skin, but I’m not anti-proud of it either. It’s an artifact of my genetics. I should just as soon be proud of the blueness of the sky.
How would I describe my own skin? Hmmm…let’s call it “Alabaster Sea Shell.” Kinda catchy, no?
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JT,
Such characteristics are measurable quantities in the observable universe, and so the right to examine and comment upon it is implicit.
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Such characteristics are measurable quantities in the observable universe, and so the right to examine and comment upon it is implicit.
”
”
”
Sorry, what characteristics have been measured? The fact that obesity has been reported as higher in one population over the other? If i look at that report i have to accept a number of things:
a) that 50 black participants from each state constitutes a sufficient sample to make generalizations about the whole black population within each state. Can effect size for race really be determined from a sample that small? Im not sure that it can for a second.
b) If i am to accept this report as reflecting the real rates of obesity in black america, how about the rates of anorexia, bulimia, binge eating and other eating deprivation disorders in white female populations compared to black female populations that have a great influence over body mass index:
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?Volume=160&page=1326&journalID=13
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00015514.htm
” consistent with previous findings (7) that showed white and Hispanic females perceive themselves to be overweight more often than black females. Previous studies (5) also have indicated that normal-weight adolescent females often consider themselves to be overweight and use inappropriate weight-reducing methods. In addition, harmful weight-loss practices and negative attitudes about body size have been reported among girls as young as 9 years of age (8)
”
But the way you would want to tell the story of the discrepancy in that report is through the lens of Black overindulgence when it comes to food. Why don’t we have the conversation about white eating disorders instead of honing in on black obesity? It seems as though you’d like to tell a whole story with only a part of the picture. Would the rates of eating disorders so high in white female populations have anything to do with the lower rates of obesity in the white female populations? You betcha.
c) Black females report higher satisfaction with their bodies than white females:
‘
differences exist in attitudes and cultural norms regarding body weight. For example, according to one study, both non-Hispanic black and Hispanic women are more satisfied with their body size than non-Hispanic white women; persons who are satisfied with their body size are less likely to try to lose weight (8). Finally, certain populations have less access to affordable, healthful foods and safe locations for physical activity. Evidence suggests that neighborhoods with large minority populations have fewer chain supermarkets and produce stores and that healthful foods are relatively more expensive than energy-dense foods, especially in minority and low-income communities (9). Evidence also indicates that minority and low-income populations have less access to physical activity facilities and resources and that traffic and neighborhood safety might inhibit walking (9).
‘
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5827a2.htm
So truthfully, you are trying to impose your standard of beauty and your expectations for others on Black females and then make qualitative evaluations about their character. Do you not see how this is deceptive and mean-spirited AKA race realism?
You haven’t proven Lara’s assertion either: that Black females get fat in their 20’s.
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Randy,
You know your responses are always far more revealing than you realise that I often wonder why it is you fail to spot your own sub-conscious reflections within them. This I can only put down to a lack of personal self-reflection. Traditionally a well observed phenomenon among many beneficiaries of white privilege.
I wonder who it is in the media you have in mind when you make statements concerning the inability of white people to describe their own skin tones favourable (not vainly) in a positive manner like:
“…I’d guess that this very recent phenomenon you describe is perhaps explainable in significant measure by the modern western media not describing light skin favorably. In Asia, where light skin is still favorably described by the media, one hears a great deal of lyrical waxing about it…”
Tell me Randy who is it that comprises the modern western media? And whose interests, culture and appearance do they mostly reflect? Yours or mine? And whose interests are being reflected in the Asian media to the detriment of its own peoples?
That was an opportunity to engage in some personal self-reflection. But don’t thank me for it!
“…You are, of course generally correct. However, not all models of the world are equally accurate, which provides room for discussion and debate. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for one person to offer evidence that one model is more aligned to observable reality than another, and for other persons to offer counter-evidence…”
This is what I’ve been trying to explain to you for quite a while so I am glad you were able to eventually concede this point!. However, the important consideration here is not accuracy, as you’re at pains to point out. Its validity. All models of the world are equally valid but that doesn’t mean that they are equally right or accurate for everyone. This goes back to previous discussions I’ve had with you before about a one observable world reality. This is a Newtonian way of thinking about the world which has been superseded by modern observations in the realm of quantum physics. I’m sure I shouldn’t have to tell someone of your presumed intellectual superiority something as basic as this? Or do I?
“…I’m not “proud” of my skin, but I’m not anti-proud of it either. It’s an artifact of my genetics. I should just as soon be proud of the blueness of the sky…
There you go again expounding on your potatoes theory which was a non-starter to begin with. If you can make statements like the above is it any wonder that younger white kids growing up should aspire to have bronze and tanned like skin?
And you still want to believe and maintain that the sub-conscious desire and envy of POC skin tones has nothing to do with this?
That was another opportunity to engage in some personal self-reflection Randy. But I don’t mind if you want to thank me for it!
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@Kwamla
@Bulanik
Both Randy and Lara have admitted to not particularly loving the skin they are in
Lara:- I can’t say I’m really proud of my skin tone…
Randy:- I’m not “proud” of my skin, but I’m not anti-proud of it either. It’s an artifact of my genetics. I should just as soon be proud of the blueness of the sky…
Is it unsurprising then that there has been more than a moderate effort from these and another individual to refute the fact that ‘other’ WP might have the same indifferent PoV of their own skin tone and, actually aspire to emulate the skin of a BP/PoC?
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Hitler once said that his knees looked “too pasty”
so there you go..
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@ Demerera
Yes its an interesting and revealing observation when white commentators can admit to being not exactly in love with their own skin tone yet seem repelled by the idea of other whites taking the next step in desiring and emulating the skin tones of POC. How bizarre and F’@cked up is that!
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Kwamla / Demerera:
I’m not “repelled” by the idea that white people might be trying to emulate the appearance of non-white folks, just that the available evidence doesn’t seem to support it.
See here: http://www.livestrong.com/article/13930-sun-tanning/
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JT,
It’s refreshing to see a refutation of a factual claim with another factual claim, instead of the previous attempt which attempted to refute a factual claim with demographics. Well done.
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JT,
It’s refreshing to see a refutation of a factual claim with another factual claim, instead of the previous attempt which attempted to refute a factual claim with demographics. Well done.
”
”
”
@ Randy,
Please don’t patronize me because you can’t answer 99% of my post. That is the cheap and easy way out.
I think your treatment of people like discrete variables is dispicable / reprehensible. It is that idea of the human person that has got us where we are in terms of the irreparability of race relations that we are now in.
And if race relations are ever repaired, it is not because you or your ilk extended an olive branch. It was because you were forced to see the truth or remain an antique of the racialization of Black men and women.
I am done reading you. You bore me.
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@JT
Randy convenient and frequently fails to respond to 80-90% of posts refuting his bizarre, obtuse and unsubstantiated claims which he makes in the hope of most commentators feeling inadequate or insufficiently knowledgeable to respond to. Just look at his in box from numerous posters here (myself included) he selectively picks the points he thinks he can challenge and ignores the rest entirely. Hoping you’ll be too distracted by the new nonsense he’s now brought to your attention. Its all a ploy and a disingenuous one at that.
I believe the best response is take him as seriously as he takes himself – a Joke!
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Bulanik,
Since tanning is a recent trend, its history is well known, and as far as I can tell, uncontroversial. Please offer any evidence you have that the primary driver behind tanning is race and not class.
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@Randy
Having grown up in a 90%+ white area, I can state with some confidence that the vast majority of people I’ve known over the years who sought a tan were not trying to appear as another race, but rather wanted to look as though they’d been to the beach or on a vacation, or at the very least get rid of their “high-latitude / office drone” pallor.
&
I’m not “repelled” by the idea that white people might be trying to emulate the appearance of non-white folks, just that the available evidence doesn’t seem to support it.
You have made your assertion in the first paragraph yet I see no documented evidence of a census being taken in your locality to support your ‘confident’ statement here. Now, if I continue to refute what you state above, this strongly suggests that you are lying but, I have no evidence to prove or disprove this either so, I must take what you have said at face value…
I on the other hand have witnessed the I’m almost as as dark as you comments for over 30 years i.e. since I was a child. I dont collate the information in carefully documented form the same as you havent about the people in your locality. It would be pretty poor form if you too cant take at face value what I have said in the same way that I have suggested your comment should be taken.
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Kwamla,
I was going to respond to your last set of questions, but will not do so since you’ve decided to switch to insults.You should consider challenging your own Afrocentric narcissism with critical analysis (“It’s always about race, and always about us!”).
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Bulanik
This is what I thought after reading that article. You see Randy is incapable of condensing the article to extrapolate the apparent evidence he refers to which might support his unsubstantiated claims.
He leaves it for those of us deftly more skilled in this area to do it for him so he can step in and play the role of an arbitrator of commentary on our findings. This is so cynical. A trait he plainly, unlike his skin tone, cherishes..
I wondered while reading through the article what role model for health these plainly white teenagers where emulating? Its left unstated but it obviously wouldn’t be a white role model with an already acquired unnatural tan. It could only be a POC who was already considered to have a healthy natural looking tan.
“…1997:
In a survey in Seventeen magazine, 2/3 of teens say they look better with a tan and feel healthier and more sophisticated, and 50 percent say they look more athletic…”
Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/13930-sun-tanning/#ixzz1zZtvI8qB
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Demerera,
The controversial leap is in going from “I’m almost as dark as you” to “I’m attempting to adopt the appearance of a black / brown person” and then on to “I wish I were black”. While that doesn’t appear to be your particular stance, it’s one reflected in other comments.
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@ Kwamla,
Yes, i believe you’re right, Kwamla. Randy has a tendency to to try and neutralize the inneutralizable: race relations. He would like to dissolve the context from which we are all placed as subjects at infancy: that you are a ‘black’ male and everything that means and I am the ‘white’ and every thing that goes along with that. He assumes that because he has rarely felt racialized and thereafter punished for his culture/history/skin tone/ethnicity etc. that others too have never felt that way.
Nor does he think that anyone should be held accountable for white historical persecution of Blacks worldwide and the generations of instability this has wrought in the African or American continents. According to the book of Randy, PoC that are in economic deprivation are a product of our own doing not the economic disadvantage that has been placed on PoC traditionally. Nor is there such a thing as the cycle of poverty that is self-perpetuating – poverty being a co-morbid factor for all sorts of health and social disadvantages. According to the book of Randy, PoC all have a fresh start at birth .. and those that struggle more can blame themselves and their race which is inherently irrational, over-emotional, illogical, uneducated etc. This is the book of Randy.
The fact that he always neglects the fact that he is a product of his culture not of his merits. He was born, raised, and weened in a specific time and place where his physical features and language were held in a high esteem and widely rewarded economically. His legacy is that he privileged from something that is due entirely to random chance, not from personal superiority or merit.
‘
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@Randy
The controversial leap is in going from “I’m almost as dark as you” to “I’m attempting to adopt the appearance of a black / brown person” and then on to “I wish I were black”. While that doesn’t appear to be your particular stance, it’s one reflected in other comments.
The link you have provided is but one article featuring ‘soundbites’ from individuals in what is a multi billion dollar industry. The question ‘would you like to have skin that emulates the tone of a BP’s’ has not been asked to the commenters, neither has the question ‘do you use BP as the benchmark in terms of the ideal tan’. I agree with other commenters – whilst it does support your own stance on the class aspects of tanning, it does not delve in to the social aspects of this to disprove the assertion that some WP want to adopt/emulate the appearance of a BP.
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Randy
“…Kwamla,
I was going to respond to your last set of questions, but will not do so since you’ve decided to switch to insults.You should consider challenging your own Afrocentric narcissism with critical analysis (“It’s always about race, and always about us!…”
You’re far too cynical. And you couldn’t respond adequately to my questions if you wanted to. God knows (if you believe in one of course) I’ve given and presented you with every opportunity to do so. Just look at your past in box tray of already decaying questions!
I’ll just file these under the growing pile of questions conveniently avoided or side-steped by Randy.
Oh…and just for the record Randy: Its always about Race, Class, Gender, even Sexuality, inclusively. Its just never any of these exclusively. Just thought you should know that for future reference!
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Kwamla:
More Afrocentric narcissism. Getting a “tan” is an inherent property of (most) white people’s skin who spend time outside. To think that only non-white people would naturally have such skin tones is quite frankly racist.
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@ Randy
I believe this question has already been attempted at answering but failed miserably up thread. Which ethnic group for a healthy, athletic looking tanned role model is being implicitly referred to in this article?
Go on Randy prove me to be a…what was it…Afrocentric narcissistic racist! lol!!
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Bulanik:
That’s a fair point, but to more fully align with the above discussion, you’d also have to have an implication that a black person who is using sunscreen or a parasol is deliberately trying to emulate white people out of envy.
Now doesn’t that sound silly and Eurocentrically narcissistic?
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Randy
“…a black person who is using sunscreen or a parasol is deliberately trying to emulate white people out of envy.
Now doesn’t that sound silly and Eurocentrically narcissistic?…”
The problem you have making statements like this Randy is that there already exists a global Eurocentric standard of beauty which has been imposed artificially on POC. You’ve already attested to this in your wife and her families case. Therefore this is a misleading comparison to make.
Its understandable that a POC could unconsciously be drawn to emulating this unnatural behaviour. Particular if the main frame of reference is an unchallenged Eurocentric one.
I agree with Bulanik this is a lazy comparison. A more accurate one could be found from looking for evidence of Black people indulging in this behaviour in their original cultural settings. But you can’t do this can you?
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She’s definitely sounding like the “other” Lara who was banned months ago. Either she’s back, or there is another Lara altogether that shares the same opinions.
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Kwamla:
This is EXACTLY what I’ve been talking about.
“It’s about race and it’s about us.”
No. Colorism has been practiced within Asia for a long long time in the near complete absence of European or African peoples. Again, it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with class.
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@ Brothawolf:
You are right – it was the same Lara. I have deleted all her comments from the past several days and updated my spam filter. Thanks.
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Ah ha! I knew it!
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Join now!
http://www.dvdstore.com/?tour=20&orientation=trans&rev=yes&account=ysama&lang=us
Only 1$
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@Randy
…..but to more fully align with the above discussion, you’d also have to have an implication that a black person who is using sunscreen or a parasol is deliberately trying to emulate white people out of envy.
Now doesn’t that sound silly and Eurocentrically narcissistic?
No, but it does sound silly and ignorant on your part though.
Living in a country where summers consist of rain, rain and more rain in the main (lol) PoC get little exposure to the sun and can therefore be affected by the suns rays when they do go to sunnier climes or, the rare smattering of sunshine that this country gets.
The damage might not be as noticeable as that on a WP and, maybe the skin will ‘adapt’ quicker but, trust me, the skin does get affected by the sun.
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Did that crazy woman (Lara) think the people would forget about her, or that her ban was either temporary or not to be taken seriously since it was governed by a person of color?
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Randy
“…Colorism has been practiced within Asia for a long long time in the near complete absence of European or African peoples. Again, it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with class….”
This is why you never learn Randy because you insist on imposing your narrowly formed (others might say racist but I am being generous) view on the rest of the world. I’ve told you this already if you could be bothered to read some of my previous detailed comments to you. Its never exclusively about viewing the world from one lens only. This is a lazy and convenient analytical approach and you really need to come to terms with this. Its become your signature tune.
I noticed you completely omitted to comment on my point about the imposition of a Western cultural global beauty standard. Of course this would have had no bearing or effect on the practise of “Colorism” your referring to?
Even if you were to argue it could all be explained from a class perspective it would not invalidate the impact of race? Which of course you have no perspective on.
To re-quote how your words sound to me again:
“…This is EXACTLY what I’ve been talking about.
“It’s about [class] and it’s about us…”
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@ Demerera:
Where I live, I get the four seasons and I lighten up in the winter and tan in the summer even with sunblock/sunscreen. I would not be caught dead without an protective product. Skin with more melanin can still be affected by sun damage even if you can’t see it. Idk what Randy is talking about. Contrary to common perception, people with darker skins are more likely to die from skin cancer. Btw, here’s an example of a POC with minor sun damage on her skin using UV lights.
Top Left – enlarged pores
Top Right – Spots
Bottom Left – Normal
Bottom Right – UV sun damage
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Kwamla,
So you’re doubling down?
It’s indisputable that colorism has existed within racially homogenous populations for thousands of years. Read any of a hundred sources on this.
Only in the very recent modern age could a “global beauty standard” of any kind even exist. The best this “standard” can do is overlay what has already been in existence for thousands of years, and you want it be treated “equally”?
I’m rejecting your “view the world from multiple lenses equally theory”. Yes, events can have multiple causations, but it’s rare for those to be equal in strength.
If you’re going to make a claim like, “Asians prefer light skin (in part) because of modern western beauty standards” at least disclaim that it’s a best a minority cause compared with the rampant colorism which has been practiced for thousands of years without any exposure to Europeans.
Kwamla,
Yes, that’s EXACTLY what it would do. It would demonstrate that race plays a small part at best, and a recent one at that.
In the case of my in-laws, they praise the color of my kids because they have a tone which compares to the paleness of the ethnic Chinese who sit at the top of the economic ladder in the Philippines. Sorry, no evil white/western cultural hegemony needed to explain this particular effect.
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Randy
“…Kwamla
All models of the world are equally valid? but that doesn’t mean that they are equally right or accurate for everyone.
This is taken from one of my previous statements to you which I believe you’re having the most difficult assimilating. And which is why you keep writing nonsense like this:
“…I’m rejecting your “view the world from multiple lenses equally theory”. Yes, events can have multiple causations, but it’s rare for those to be equal in strength…”
The operative words here are “valid” or “validity” not “equal” or “equally”. This is where you seem to fail miserably Randy due an apparent inability to comprehend basic words and concepts. You can disagree or reject my above statement all you want Randy but you can’t invalidate it! You can deny it. Just like you can deny the global impact of racism in the modern world but you cannot invalidate it. Think about this…
You mention the “…recent modern age…”. I am curious as to what time span you’re accounting for here.Oh and while you’re at it why don’t you do some proper research for a change and explain to everyone what this “rampant colorism” is you’re referring to. Because I don’t believe you know or understand what you are talking about:
“…If you’re going to make a claim like, “Asians prefer light skin (in part) because of modern western beauty standards” at least disclaim that it’s a best a minority cause compared with the rampant colorism which has been practiced for thousands of years without any exposure to Europeans…”
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So now PoC don’t need sunscreen?
Wow i think i have heard it all now….
Suffering from hyperpigmentation is not fun nor cute..
Heck, even my make-up and lipsticks have SPF 30….and it is made specifically for brown skin.
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@Leigh & Phoebeprunelle
This is a common miscoception continually asserted by WP, so much so, that I have known one woman to double up in mirth because the idea was so ludicrous to her.
‘BP are already brown/black – why do they need suncream?’ she said
It seems that BP & PoC are perceived of having rhino like skin that very little can penetrate *rolls eyes*
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Undiluted West Africans do perfectly fine without sunscreen. Why is it that we African Americans need it? Hmmmm…….
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I think the best protection against UV rays is what nature gave to many African people and what some of us lack; which is a healthy dose of good old fashioned melanin.
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Anyone heard of the book ’50 Shades of Grey?’
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@Bulanik & Someguy
I heard that shea butter is used for skin protection in West Africa as one of its properties is mild sunblocking because it absorbs ultraviolet radiation.
This is definately it is not as widely known that BP can and do burn – most BP wear cream of some kind to moisturise their skin. These creams probably contain some mild sunblock in them.
Lacking of melanin is another factor of course, that and lack of exposure to the sun for those of us living in far less sunnier climes 🙂
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I heard that shea butter is used for skin protection in West Africa as one of its properties is mild sunblocking because it absorbs ultraviolet radiation.
Yes plenty of shea butter for the protection of skin and hair in a region as warm and sunny as West Africa…
Black soap too…contrary to popular notion, people of African descent hair, nails, and skin are very delicate and easily damaged by environmental factors…
Any of you ladies ever heard of Rx for brown skin…the dermatologist who created it explains why WoC (African, Asian, non white Hispanic etc) have hyperpigmentation and it is largely due to the fallacious thinking that because they have higher levels of melanin that they don’t need sunscreens.
I also read a study that says that WoC gain higher levels of estrogen when they take caffeinated products such as coffee, while the study says ww actually loose estrogen when they drink coffee…this effects how the skin reacts to sunlight somehow–the estrogen part does.
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The race realist pov condensed on tv game show:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_SPEvdQ3A&feature=related)
Chilly.
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Would you give thisDutch Christian politician your vote? The short one in the middle.
http://www.facebook.com/IxoraBalootje
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@JT
Poor thing. He’s floundering – trying to ‘make friends and influence people’, a certain kind of individual anyway. One that will talk to him to his face and mock him behind his back – race realist, nah not at all
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Wow, that Polynesian guy should know better. He didn’t like the guy featured onscreen for the simple fact he’s black? He definitely has a lot of issues.
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@ Demerera:
I get that, too!! I’ll apply sunscreen everywhere and I’ve had ONLY white people tell me why I don’t need sunscreen because I already have some color? Wth? My beautiful, darker skinned sister has experienced the same thing.
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Bulanik,
Thats a very fascinating discovery you’ve made there. You need to set up you’re own account on facebook so you can keep track of posts like these.
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Kwamla:
You dispute the historicity of intra-racial colorism? Take 5 minutes with google and you should have a wealth of resources. Such practices have been documented in East Asia, South East Asia, South Asia, and Europe, to name but a few regions.
Bulanik: The “Statue of Liberty” claim appears to be a hoax: http://www.snopes.com/history/american/liberty.asp
Funny that Kwamla seems to accept this without dispute. Perhaps because there’s an Afrocentric slant to the story?
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@ Randy
“…You dispute the historicity of intra-racial colorism? Take 5 minutes with google and you should have a wealth of resources. Such practices have been documented in East Asia, South East Asia, South Asia, and Europe, to name but a few regions…
No I just dispute your ability to accurately comprehend and explain it. Which you’re obviously unable to do otherwise you would have done so by now.
I’ve already told you this before stop being lazy and do your own research instead of asking others to do the work for you.
“…The “Statue of Liberty” claim appears to be a hoax:…”
But of course it is!!! And its up to more discerning and color blind non-racists individuals like this author (and yourself) to point out to- dumb accept anything thats Black narcissistic Afrocentrists like myself – how misguided we are.
Ahhh…I see now how I must have gotten this all wrong as the author of that article so objectively concludes:
“…What seems to have eluded Jeffries and others is that whatever the color of the person who served as the model for the Statue of Liberty may have been, the statue itself is colorless. It does not represent a particular color of person any more than the Michelin Tire Man does, and the idea it symbolizes applies to people of all colors, whether or not its creators intended it that way…”
Yeah… I get it now thanks for pointing this out to me Randy…The Statue of Liberty is Colourless!!! Now why couldn’t I have noticed this before ???!!!
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This Statue of Liberty hoax is actually a fairly old one. Doubt everything of this nature on the internet. Most of the time it’s disinformation.
Mental pictures, stereotypes and fake history
Reinforces mystery
And when mystery is reinforced
That only means that knowledge has been lost.
-KRS-One
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@ Bulanik
Yes…I’ve been reading these reports. Its always useful when trying to discern the truth of something between conflicting accounts to have an some idea of how historical accounts are constructed. This must always take into account political and other prejudicial biases. Two things stand out for me ambiguously in these explanations: The model is based on a woman and the undeniable association with chains.
When you consider the time period:18th-19th century and what this statue was built to represent the story of how this image eventually came to be depicted as a woman (with or without chains) seems incongruent with the times to me..
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Bulanik:
The full quote from the article is, “If knowledge is power, then willful misinformation is the work of the Devil.”
I think that’s a worthy statement, don’t you?
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I watched that video and I noticed something. The guy said that based on his experiences with blacks, he dislikes them. Yet, he never fully explained them. Instead, he goes on about how “we” all think the world owes us and that he despises affirmative action. That still doesn’t explain what he experiences were.
As far as this guy goes, he’s one of the biggest idiots on the planet, and maybe the racism he has against blacks is a major contributor.
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@ Demerera,
From what I have seen of the race realist crowd, they feel uncomfortable in the presence of Blacks because they have dualling interests: interest 1) to confront Blacks with their pent up anger and ignorance; interest 2)but to not to seem like total aholes (normative influence of society wherein a person wants to project their ‘goodness’)
Their emotion ultimately gets the best of them as in this video where he feels he has to release and be validated for his emotion. That doesn’t come through though and he and his ideas are rejected as repulsive. Rightfully.
To me, he is as much a race realist as say, Doug1111. Who probably bites his tongue as interacts with Blacks (like he said how he helped tutor a Black female adolescent and was fine with her) but let loose online.
@ SW6,
He is as contrite as he is a equality-minded. That is to say, he isn’t contrite. He has been shamed by the tv and internet audience which is enough of a punishment. Unless something has dramatically changed, i guarantee you he is as hateful towards Blacks as he ever was. That is a race realist.
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As far as this guy goes, he’s one of the biggest idiots on the planet, and maybe the racism he has against blacks is a major contributor.
@ Brothawolf,
Nicely stated!
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@JT
Their emotion ultimately gets the best of them as in this video where he feels he has to release and be validated for his emotion. That doesn’t come through though and he and his ideas are rejected as repulsive. Rightfully.
To me, he is as much a race realist as say, Doug1111. Who probably bites his tongue as interacts with Blacks (like he said how he helped tutor a Black female adolescent and was fine with her) but let loose online.
To me, its a case of ‘oppress the oppressed’ thereby distancing yourself from being in the category. The individual must show disdain, for the very things that the ‘oppressed’ minority are fighting for to demonstrate how unlike ‘them’ in every which way they are, thereby assimilating with the perceived most powerful race to show your allegiance in the hope that you will be ‘accepted’.
Given the example you gave about Doug111 clearly there is one glaring similarity. Notice the guy in the clip had been in the car with the black panelist but had not betrayed his PoV during the time they had been together? He waited until he had potential ‘allies’ but clearly misjudged the other panelists – even if they felt the way he did, they were not about to admit it on national tv.
Generally, anyone who is hateful about others is trying hard not to look to hard into themselves. The ugliness of their souls is to much of a burden for them to face.
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Randy loves the bible and all it’s sayings…for his own purpose. I just ignore his ramblings now.
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Bulanik:
I am unfamiliar with this organization.
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diaryofanegress,
I’ve observed that a few of your comments regarding the desirability and necessity of segregation would likely fit well in any White Nationalist site or discussion. I’m not judging you on this, just noticing symmetry.
I was raised to believe that diverse people inherently contained the natural potential to coexist, but perhaps that was naivete on the part of myself and my parents/teachers/mentors. I actually do hope you’re wrong on the subject, but now I’m not so certain anymore.
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Segregationist should simply shut up and move to location, whether it be a city, state, or country, where their demographic is in the overwhelming majority instead of preaching to everybody else about it.
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@ Bulanik:
There are black members of D.A.R. but no one knows how many:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/nyregion/for-daughters-of-the-american-revolution-more-black-members.html
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I don’t know why, but has been stuck in my head all day:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTykohWAPRg)
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Whoops, meant that to be a link, not an embedded video.
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I just want to share this, after my trip to the States, from Brazil, where I went to Miami , while its still fresh in my mind.
I live in Brazil, a country of almost half of a population that is predominantly Afro descendants . Yes, there is enourmous , incredible mixture, maybe the most richest in the planet, and, you really get to see all the incredible designs that come from these mixtures . You get to see unbeleivible variations on the gene breakdowns and the 1/8 th , or 1/16 drop mixtures and what they look like.
But, make no mistake about it, there are a huge amount of phenotype black Brazilians . And, the truth is, in every aspect of life , like TV, Universities , politics, airport travelers , and just general elite life, black phenotype Afro descendants are severly underrepresented.
Not so in Miami. In the airport, the elite traveling life, the media (certainly way more than Brazil) , owners of business’s , etc , black phenotype Afro descendants are in force
It is a notable and tangeble differance , and , it hurts to see this in Brazil
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@SomeGuy
Crystal Waters (sp?) parody. Ty for the giggles XD.
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ooh you got all toolbars and ads and shit…
anyway, i got a fuckin job now.
i want to post something about the n word in general living in a ghetto type environment it is quite prevalanet not able to avoid it day to day ie hearing it…
need some time to process as my computer time is limited
ciao bello
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dee,
This is a long response. So, I’ll try to break my response down piece by piece.
You said, “You were refering to white people as oppressors, and I took what you said as being more relative to their ancestors, many of whom oppressed black people, here in America. So I was merely saying that even if someone’s ancestors were oppressors, as long as they weren’t personally being oppresive, it doesn’t matter, just as it doesn’t matter if someone has slave descendants. Just because someone is white doesn’t necessarily mean they’re personally responsible for institutional racism. Don’t get me wrong, it could, but it’s not automatic.”
If you took it as being a reference to white ancestors, that’s on you. You see, I know what I meant.
Sure, some white people are not being oppressive partly because they are not in a position to be oppressive. Furthermore, even if they aren’t in the position, that doesn’t mean they don’t reap from the benefits of being white in a white dominated society. They don’t have to have money. All they need is their white skin.
And most whites ARE responsible for institutional racism because they’ve gained the most from it, AND they help to maintain silence about it. That is part of the problem.
Moving on…”And you’re not living in the real world if you think the majority of non-white people would rather be judged by their ethnicity and ancestry, things out of their control, than who they actually are as indiviudals. Are you serious? Why should I care that a significant percentage of white people judged others for centuries? Two wrongs don’t make a right. If you resort to doing the same bad thing, you’re no better than them. We’re supposed to learn from history, not repeat it. And you did refer to white people as oppressors, and if not, who were you referring to when you said “To me this is a sick case of trying to get the oppressor to love us, and to do that we must discard our people.” I’m not pulling straws. I’m just elaborating from what you’ve said.”
Okay. The first part of your comment is part of your problem. You misread what is actually written. I said:
“…I am honestly sick and tired of people (mostly white) telling me and others to judge people by who they are. History tells us that’s not the way white have judged my people for centuries. They always judge us in one huge monolithic glance of inferiority and savagery. In fact as proven by the trolls that show up here they still do that! Why not give them a lesson in judging people on who they are?”
This is nowhere near what you’re saying.
I was stating that white people throughout American history did not judge people of color as individuals, and they STILL don’t. Yet, they want to be seen as such? Why on Earth is it one and not the other?
Speaking for myself, I would LOVE to be judged as an individual. I would LOVE to be seen as a man and not a black man. But, the reality is that I do not live in such a world where that is common. That is not my imagination talking. That is fact.
You say you don’t care that a significant percentage of white people have judged others for centuries. Do you don’t care that white people have used their judgement to pass judgement which is often death?
Why not take your own advice and learn from history?
Finally, you said, “And the American dream is easier nowadays for minorities than it ever was (ok, easier a couple years ago, when the economy wasn’t as bad, but you get the idea. it’s easier now than in like, the 1960s). I know it’s possible because there are people that have reached it. I don’t understand why you’re being so pessimistic. Pessimism gets people nowhere. People who made the American dream for themselves often had to overcome many obstacles and challenges, and while to a degree minorities have more challenges to overcome, they can still do it. My parents came to America and made the American dream for themselves. Are you saying that they should have just been “realistic” and just settled for living in Africa, as it was the easiest route to take? I think you’re the one who needs to wake up”
There you go again. You really need to work on your reading comprehension.
I never said that achievement, what you call the American Dream, was unattainable. I said that it’s not always a guarantee that if one works hard they will get it. I’ve known people who’ve worked hard all their lives and they are still facing obstacles and challenges. They are not middle or upper class people, but they are good people. They do not fit the stereotype of black people being lazy. Yet, they are still in the ghetto. So, what should they do since you have all the answers?
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^^^A response to dee from the Black Women’s Empowerment thread^^^
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Brothawolf, I think , with good intentions , Dee may have misunderstood you….I have followed your posts and I feel you arnt stuck in a blame the opresser mentality, but, rather , seeing things as they are and how it affects you
I know for me, sometimes I read through a group of posts and sometimes mix up who is saying what….maybe that is what happened with Dee , because she has made some great points, but , may have read you wrong
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@B.R. and Brothawolf,
between the three main culprits over there on that post; they have some serious issues with the opposite sex period.
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This you tube video I recently came across reminded of the discussion that took place up thread about the use of sun screen. Imparticular, I think it was Randy who made this comment:
“…That’s a fair point, but to more fully align with the above discussion, you’d also have to have an implication that a black person who is using sunscreen or a parasol is deliberately trying to emulate white people out of envy.
Now doesn’t that sound silly and Eurocentrically narcissistic? …”
Which this video for sun screen directly speaks to…lol!!!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Ydys6xfT8)
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@ Kwamla:
LOL! Thanks for the clip! The first ad in particular reminded me of my uncle. He put sunscreen only in areas where it was “light” namely his palms and feet!
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I’m glad you liked it Leigh!!!
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@Kwamla
That youtube video..XD. “Blacks have natural sun protection”…”Whites need sunscreen”…wow my cheeks are tingly from the giggles.
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Just ordered my first month supply of Rx for Brown Skin…i’ll be getting my much needed SPF 15 sun protection from this..
oh wait, i’m a brown skinned girl, i’m not supposed to sunburn silly me.
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@ Demerera:
I was wondering what the hoopla was all about so I bought the first book. I admit I found the kinky scenes quite steamy. *blushes* However, overall, I thought the dialogue between the two main characters was quite cheesy.
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@leigh
Gosh, you can tell what smut I must usually read lol. I am mildly bored at the moment though nowt much has happened really, just a hint of what is to come. Perhaps I will eat my words though – I can still be shocked i’m sure 😉
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Metric – Succexy
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NExkkCNnomo)
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@JT
Why is that song so catchy ><
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@ Dee
RE: Your Comment on the Black Women’s Empowerment Thread
I think his White mother was to blame. From what I gathered, she told him a lot about how his `evil’ Black father didn’t love him or her and abandoned them.
I never said matching skin colour guarantees having lots in common, bonding well or avoiding problems.
Love does overcome many obstacles, but love for a White spouse does not erase his/her family’s racism and the humiliation, anger and pain one must endure in their presence (for example). I have heard tales of women lucky enough to marry men that will cut off their dangerously racist families, but how many people in the world have enough love for their spouses to do that? Who can agree to never speaking to, seeing or hugging their family members for the rest of their lives for a man/woman they have known for a few years? Most people view a spouse as more easily disposable than their family.
I agree.
I agree with this, too. There are so many people who come on here who have had one negative experience with someone from X race and then they instantly believe all people from X race must be horrible people.
Sounds familiar to me. I remember being thought of as a right weirdo for finding personality more important than looks and finding that falling for the person altered my perception of their physical body and face. What was once unattractive became handsome.
Of course. That’s where different perceptions and opinions come from.
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@Dee
I’m not a Christian but that was a great story (the I’m Sorry shirt people)
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@JT
Why is that song so catchy ><
"
"
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@ Deedee7789,
Hard to say in one reason XD …., but i think one could start with bc the band is cool!!! If you haven't heard 'Monster Hospital' or 'Combat Baby' before check them out. Catchy tunes, interesting points of views (anti-war, for one).
Cheers,
JT
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@ Randolph
You may be many things but naive isn’t one of them. Stop playing.
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Morgan Freeman: ‘Obama isn’t the first Black president?’:
President Barack Obama is considered by some to be the nation’s first black president – but Morgan Freeman isn’t one such individual. The actor told NPR’s “Tell Me More” host Michel Martin in an interview posted Thursday that “the first thing” that he thinks of when he thinks of Obama is “all of the people who are setting up this barrier for him,” Morgan said.
“They just conveniently forget that Barack had a mama, and she was white – very white American, Kansas, middle America,” the Oscar winner continued. “There was no argument about who he is or what he is. America’s first black president hasn’t arisen yet. He’s not America’s first black president – he’s America’s first mixed-race president.”
Race aside, however, Freeman also mentioned that he believes the president has been treated unfairly by members of the opposing party.
“He is being purposely, purposely thwarted by the Republican Party, who started out at the beginning of his tenure by saying, ‘We are going to do whatever is necessary to make sure that he only has one term,’” Freeman said. “That means they will not cooperate with him on anything. So to say he’s ineffective is a misappropriation of the facts.”
##############
@ anyone,
Thoughts?
http://bossip.com/610050/for-discussion-morgan-freeman-says-barack-obama-is-not-our-first-black-president-dont-forget-about-his-white-mama/
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truthbetold:
Naive about what exactly? Sorry if I missed an earlier comment.
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^^ Yawn.
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Would anyone non-white get away with this?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDCXzqgD99o&feature=player_embedded)
I can just imagine the headline news story… Man killed/or tased at police check point for refusing to pull over his vehicle, suspected of being an alien or suspected of being on drugs or carrying drugs..
Police Officer: “The Gentleman looked very suspicious to me especially after he refused to cooperate…”
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After reading those posts on BWE one question comes to mind:
Why the hell are black people so concerned whether or not white people wanna marry us?????
And i swear the internet is a breeding ground for blacks like this–one in particular over there sounds like he was a dude who posted under several accounts on the blackplanet forums…
It makes me wonder; ARE these people capable of forming meaningful romantic relations with the opposite sex offline?
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Bulanik, are you saying what i think you are saying? I mean say it slowly this time so that i do not miss anything. Because if you are, that means you and i are on the same page.
🙂
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Welcome back, Bulanik. You were missed 🙂
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Has anyone ever watched this documentary called the Pruitt-Igoe Myth?
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I never see any sports stuff on the blog, so this is for all the sports fans:
youtube.com/watch?v=ZhjzMbq9Ipo
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John Terry is found ‘not guilty’ of racism after calling a fellow footballer a ‘Black C*nt’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18827915
and now the talk of ‘racism in football’ is being diverted elsewhere…to Rio Ferdindand responding to a comment made about Ashley Cole where he was called a ‘Choc Ice’ after he spoke on behalf of Terry
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2173794/Rio-Ferdinand-denies-racist-Twitter-attack-Ashley-Cole.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
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@ Bulanik,
That Mulatu Astatqe sax and piano track from the Ethiopiques volume is smooooooooth. I like it a lot. Thanks. =)
JT
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No, wait–i am posting this in the wrong thread…i’m such a dork.
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^^^^^ lol
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Why do i keep dreaming about high school? Has anyone ever dreamed they went back to their school years. For the record that wasn’t the best time for me. I feel weird.
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@phoebeprunelle
I have that same re-occurring school theme as well. I think it is because it’s a primal archetype in modern society.
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HAWT!
(http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhIGz4nmF8cI7Up4DM)
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You sure about that SomeGuy?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreWhite
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@ Bulanik and satanforce
Well, if you look at science fiction TV shows, not necessarily movies, the rules about how Black people are supposed to act are relaxed. Why this is, I don’t know. I watch quite a bit of science fiction since it’s probably my favorite genre.
Now, I won’t say that Blacks are dominant in science fiction, but White Hollywood doesn’t seem to mind a “normal” fully rounded character in that fictional setting. They also don’t mind eschewing mulattoes in favor of more darker Black people. I could give examples, but I think most people can think of a few actors that come to mind.
Personally, I get annoyed, when they portray the dominant ethnicity as White American; when it is quite clear that most space travelers in the future will most certainly be Chinese.
On a side note, I absolutely refuse to watch Game of Thrones for it’s lack of a Black presence. I also HATE the Lord of the Rings films.This is a little game that White folks like to play. They conjure up these fantasy worlds where Blacks are non-existent, then use it as an excuse to have a White-only cast. Then when you call them on their BS they say “Oh, it’s fantasy Europe!” So, let me get this straight; magic and dragons are OK, but Black people in Europe is too unbelievable?? Give me a break.
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@ Bulanik
Get used to Africa being demonized more and more, now that certain African economies are growing, as well as the Chinese presence. Many African nations will become the enemies of the U.S. as China prepares for global domination and eventually war.
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@ Bulanik
Were you on holiday? If so, hope you enjoyed it. I went on a short holiday recently and the weather was awful. 😦
@ SomeGuy
Yes, why is it that, in most fantasy films and TV series, everyone is always White and it’s almost always set in a medieval England or Europe type of place? I love reading and watching fantasy, but I would be lying if I said that never got to me.
Also, then what was the point of white-washing Avatar: The Last Airbender? It was clear it was set in a fantasy Asian world, so why did everyone have to be White? White people already have 99.9% of all other fantasy stuff, can’t some other race be the hero/heroine in a fantasy world for once?
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@ Iris
Because a lot of white people seem to have some real problems relating to anyone who doesn’t reflect their image. They can make do with animated characters with lines for lips, pointy noses and a light tan, but actual Asian faces aren’t “universal” or “commercial” and we all know those are code words. I know its not because of a lack of Asian talent available. I really liked the animated show, but I refuse to see the movie.
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Its clear there is an obvious bias in media films and TV depicting mainly white people in SF and Fantasy productions. Even when they are specifically written by Black people with Black people in mind…Eg “The Matrix” originally scripted by Sophie Stewart.
This type of white-wash or cover up is reflected in other areas too like general History and you begin to ask yourself why? What are those white people responsible for delivering these productions afraid of or trying to hide?
What exactly would we be likely to find when we begin to explore future planets and make public the findings of its inhabitants like those depicted in Avatar?… I wonder…?
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Bulanik, then you are going to have to come up with a word to SUBstitute SUB, because the problem I have with people who dont like to distinguish the culture that you can find a distinct linc with below the Sahara , is they dont seem to want to ackowledge that you can go from West Africa, East Africa and South Africa, below the Sahara, and , in spite of differances in dance and drumming, a common thread of a concept of how to aproach rhythm and dance, that you can only really find outside of Africa in places that black Africans from below the Sahara were brought as slaves.
And north of the Sahara, this concept is overturned for a more Arab sounding rhythm and dance concept ( for example, you can see some drumming in North Africa that comes from the South concept, but, the dance part is restricted by Islamic rules, so it loses the original aproach).
So , anthopologists, arceaologists, ideaologists, need to take that in to account when discussing Africa.They cant manipulate how they think their science or ideaology should describe Africa without taking in to account the history of drum dance concepts that are a common thread through out below the Sahara…and I can prove it very easily with youtube. Just like we know there is a common thread throughout Europe of concepts of how to create Classical music. You have composors from Germany, France, Italy, Russia, Hungaria(Bartok), etc, all indicating a common thread about certain concepts of music.
If you come up with a term for describing this, Im happy to use it, but , no matter how you slice it, there is a genius concept at work that is ancient and all powerful that was developed from black Africans from below the Sahara , relating to drum and dance ( and how it translates into everyday life)..and it reflects on the genius and humanity and culture of that people…
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….”there is a common thread of a concept” is what I meant to say
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Really getting sick of this microaggression s**t that i am dealing with from white classmates.
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@ B.R
Thats excellent!
I like that conceptualisation of drumming, rhythm and dance to account for the differences and shared cultural influences between North, West, East and South Africa. Which is much more meaningful and far less arbitrary than the ideological imposed notion of a sub-Saharan North African divide.
After all Africa is a whole continent from North-South, West-East and other combinations in between. This ideological imposition stems from the time of the 19th Century “Berlin Conference”
http://wysinger.homestead.com/berlinconference.html
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@PhoebePrunelle,
What are they doing? =/
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@JT,
Some are making really snide remarks and the undertone is quite racist…
This one student–who grew up in the same city i’m from only attended homeschooling and eventually private school–yet she finds a need to always question the integrity of the public school system in that same city. I am a product of that district and can tell anyone first hand that my high school had/has a 90% graduation rate. What is interesting is that this district serves mostly African American students and their families…
Yet no one but me calls her out on this; in fact they mostly stand with her even though they know nothing of the district.
Smh…i could go on, but
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@phoebeprunelle
Someguy, I have this dream at least once every two months. I’m either late for class, walking home from school in daylight then it suddenly becomes night, or walking up the flight of stairs that lead to the 10th grade wing. Maybe i am stuck on something that happened that year because it is always 10th grade. I even see me wearing the clothes i had back then.
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Yes, Kwamla, just to make it clear, its not to devide Africa, its to make sure to ackowledge this concept that black Africans have given the world, and, I have studied drumming and dancing from Mali (the Dogons among others), the Congo, Senegal ( Dudu Rose),Kenya, the Zulu, Watusi, Masai ( who dont have power drums and were one of the migrations back down from the North), Ghanaian drumming, Nigeria, etc etc, and there is a common theme , despite the differant aproaches in each area.Of course there have been various migrations, and, my ears tell me when Im hearing the Arab influence on music in Africa. But there is a specific quantifiable tangable concept that comes from many of the black African aproaches.
Its older than the Pyramids, an old Egyption text , about 3000 bc talks of the dark African pygmy who was remarkable with his song and dance…it didnt come from Egypt…its much older…its is the human beings first mathamatical calculater ( the drum), and it is much more than just music, its using these principals to get in touch with the intuition and turn off the thinking brain…deep concepts that arnt really disected and given credit in Western culture , to black Africans, even as the Western world starts to discover yoga and other valuabel Eastern practices that the West finds out it badly needs.
So if people dont like the term “Sub Sahara Africa”, they have to come up with a term that will describe this so me and my musical colleagues who understand the genius of these concepts, have a way to describe it
Because these concepts wont be talked about otherwise. They will be lost and the value of what they represent will never be revealed
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How many times if you see any dance presentation, even if its a suposidly “African” one, and its choreographed every step of the way ?
The really mainlining Afro Brazilian concepts I have worked with from the street are mostly improvised….
How many times have you seen a jazz show where they are reading music ? The highest leval jazz musicians didnt always read off the paper in their shows even if they were great readers…reading sheet music is European concepts…To really reach the black African concepts , its about layering aduple / triple call responce pollyrhythm, holding your part and a soloist or dancer improvises on top..it starts creating a life its own, and eveyone is in an alpha state. Black Africans had the genius to uncover these principles of how to reach this through drumming and dancing that carries over into all aspects of life..it didnt come from black Aboriginies or Pacific Island ( always there is an exception , how about Tahitian logs and dancing? pretty interesting), and, where these cultural concepts went, with black African slaves, they dominated the popular music cultures every where it went
Do you think there is an educational music school anywhere on the planet that can actualy really address these principles ?
You arnt going to really hear these things discussed
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@brothawolf:
So, you’re saying that they should be punished for something that they were born into, that’s out of their control? shit happens. that’s history. there’s inequality in every country. the best thing about america is that it’s the easiest place to move up your status, especially as a minority, compared to every other country in the world. are you saying I should feel guilty, for being born into an upper middle class family, when the majority of the world is poor? it’s just luck
yeah, white people have gained from institutional racism, and that’s not fair, but the solution isn’t to just sit and whine about it. look at a country like japan. after they got bombed by america they rebuilt their country and now they’re one of the world’s biggest super powers. the only way to get out of this funk is for people to put their heads down and work hard. complaining about the past doesn’t improve anything. but if we want to be prosperous we have to focus on being able to contribute to the economy.
But worrying about what people think about “black males” and “the state of the black community” is out of your control. the only thing you can control is yourself, and doing the best you can to fulfil what you want out of life, no matter what barriers are in your way. if everyone thought so negatively, then nobody would aspire to do great things, like become the first black president, the first black astronaut, etc. are you saying that I shouldn’t dream big because I’m black and society assumes that because I’m black I’ll amount to nothing? give me a break. if my parents thought that way we’d be living in a farm in a rural part of Africa. after seeing my parents succeed, especially my dad, who came from a poor family in west Africa, but worked really hard in school, got a full scholarship to a top uni in the UK, got up to his PhD, and is now running his own business in America, I’m not fazed by such things. I already know that my dreams can be a reality. I’m aware that black people often have to work harder to be successful. That doesn’t mean people should just give up. I’d rather work hard than not be successful. Or even if I don’t reach my wildest dreams, I’d like to know that I still tried my best. And if everyone had that mindset, then society’s perception of black people would change to reflect that. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take
I guess the simple answer is that life isn’t always fair. What else is there to say? I believe that one day, through economics, poverty will be eliminated, but not any time soon
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@ Dee
There is often a difference between how one perceives one’s country, and how the country actually is.
BUT…
And while we’re at it:
Mhmm, I wonder why it took so long to see a Black president in the White House…
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@ Bulanik
Exactly.
The very definition of the word implies a pre-state level of development. So most of the so-called African “tribes” shouldn’t even be labeled “tribes” anyway…
Another word the western press just looove to use when discussing even the tiniest unrest in any African country is “chaos”.
@ SomeGuy & Iris
* Nods head in agreement *
I’m Dahoman X and I approve this.
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And united against a common enemy.
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This is very true.
As far as explanations go, it seems that by dropping the word “tribalism” in their report, they believe they have said all that needs to be said.
When it comes to our economies, they say “corruption” + “dictatorship” and call it a day.
Context and chronology do not seem to matter when covering African events.
Remember the “T.I.A.” from that “Blood Diamonds” movie?
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Yes, of course Bulanik, I should be able to think outside the box on this…and, I do understand your point…
Its just that the first thing that usualy is buried under the discusions of Africa and how it should be understood , is the realisation of these wonderful concepts that were revealed by these black Africans. After all, if a person really understands that, they will see and understand the humanity , genius and contribution by black Africans and there might be much more respect and at least have more voices to try to counter the recource exploiters who have always been eating away at Africa
And, Im sure you notice, in most all of discusions about the problems of Africa, no one really ever discusses these aspects and contributions and what they should mean to the world and respect for Africa
But, of course, I do know these values and I can step back and not argue about the nescesity to define these paramaters , in the face of bringing attention to media digs and put downs of Africa, exactly because I do know the value of Africa and value the culture and humanity
And, I will make an effort to describe what Im talking about in other terms..and there are always other terms , and, for sure I can agree about the stereotypes the news fosters on us and these subconcious uses of what “sub” could mean
But I always wonder if these paramaters Im talking about will ever really be brought to the attention of the world…..I mean the Dogon did know as much about astronomy as Egypt, but, they never told us that
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@ Bulanik, B.R & Dahoman X
I love all this “out of the box” discussion you’re all having about the perceptions of Africa in the so called Western world. Why is this important?
As all of you have correctly alluded to in your conversations it challenges and questions previously assumed fixed concepts and ideas about how the world we’ve come to know and inherit is constructed. That this construction could be just that – A CONSTRUCTION –, and an arbitrary one at, that rarely gets the attention of most people living a day to day existence. And even those who we would assume to be more knowledgeable and learned – like Academics..
How we view the world shapes and affects our body, mind and spiritual consciousness of ourselves, others and the environment around us. This is why changing just this one perception can have a revolutionary effect on people. Consider how we would perceive ourselves if we held a conception of the world as given in that map by Bulanik, which is worth reposting:
“…The world, right way up and Africa at the centre:
…”
Now consider this more enlightened episode of “The West Wing” Season 2 Episode 16 where this very proposition was put forward:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY)
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@ Bulanik,
Cuban group: Orishas – El Kilo
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uEttBMAwEs)
@ Abagond,
Can you check out George Zimmerman thread. I was hoping to get your thoughts.
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RIP victims of Batman movie massacre. Terrible. =( =( =(
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@ Bulanik,
As a student of psychology, it strikes me as particularly horrific how he was a medical student dedicated to the embetterment of human physiology until this year —- maybe this is what the media wants me to fear, that anyone can change into a monster at any time and any place —=- but it seems entirely contrary to his professional training that he would wrought such destruction and death on an innocent group of moviegoers. With the aimless act of the violence, Its almost as though he had an issue with the type of people that go to the batman movie (anyone) for his failures/stresses/difficulties. That is someone who went down hard, mentally and lacked the tools to buttress the fall. Then these innocents had to pay for it with all their loved ones too. Terrible tragedy.
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@Bulanik
@JT – I just heard about the deaths at that Batman movie.
Don’t understand. Terrible.
Truly tragic..and scary Colorado – Some of my family live there…
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@Sw6
I trust your family is well though Demerera?
Thank you for your concern – I am waiting for confirmation but would hope I would have heard something by now
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RIP to the victoms.
Well, Bulanik, I did say that the genius that revealed the concepts I talk about carry over into all aspects of life…It is intertwined with how to go about life..
Of course I dont think all black Africans are in connection to the culture that was passed down from the past. That would be as dumb as thinking all black people can dance.Can all Europeans deal with classical music? Most Americans absolutly know nothing about their absolutly rich heritage in jazz music…they absolutly give it no value and dont listen to it….are you getting where Im coming from ?
I talk about drum dance because that is what I do, and Ive been doing it a long time profesionaly and I mainline working with Afro diasporic dancers…for decades and decades…I talk about these truths because they have been revealed to me because of my disciplines…I dont say Im a great thinker, I say Im a deep devotee and practitioner of Afro diasporic concepts. Im a musician, I have big ears, I can tell origins in music, i can hear a chord in jazz and recognise that it came from a European composer,even if its being filtered through the blues…I can hear the Arab influence when it is in African music..I can hear when the original Afro diasporic concept is being waterd down and losing its original essence
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This is just too co-incidental and has all the hallmarks of a mind “programmed” assault. It completely makes no sense at all and has obviously been set up by covet means. The intention is to provoke mass fear in the gullible American public for control and manipulation. Expect more such incidents to occur…
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Im not sure what your final question aludes to…I was bringing up culture because it is exactly what gets lost in the dissection of what Africa is and what is happening to it…its just off the table..and that is why the humanity of black African people is lost in these discusions
I dont consider misery to be only one continent or one group of people. Germany produced the highest classical composers in Bheetoven, Mozart, Bach, but, when the Nazi’s stepped over the line, everyone bombed them without thinking of culture, so , for sure that is the last thing on peoples mind in conflict.
Actualy, I think your analysis of Africa is more on the money with what European colonisers did, but lacking in your analysis of what the Arabs and Islam has dont to Africa , or, what China did, in the cold war, although you are right about the USA and Soviet Union. Many communist party Brazilians traind in China to fight the cold war, China was right there in the thick of it all too, and, they are buying out raw materials now in Brazil , like Africa, and, it is starting to backfire a little…they are just going in and looking for recources like everyone else and how they can exploit the situation
For me, the information or discusion on what the Arabs did to Africa and the conflicts involving Islam is very lacking and minimal. No one can speak with an authority on what really happened in the Arab world when they were bringing millions of slaves there and the dynamic of Islam and its conflicts in Africa now.Everyone has the West down and very well documented about what happened
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Did I say it was only about drums ? I said that is my expertise, so, that is what I can express the best..
Do I really have to go into my past here, which I have , anyway, when somehow I just dont think its going to pass your test, and, you wont even go into your past….I dont even know your ethnic breakdown, Bulanik, even though you have described how you look. Maybe I missed it somewhere, and not that I need to know.
But, to understand culture of a people is a major gateway to having affinity for that people and what they are going through
And culture doesnt really have a passport for the people who want to go the extra mile to learn another culture
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@ Bulanik
I think B.R’s suggested conceptualisation of the African continent, using drumming, dance and rhythm is just as valid as yours: that so called genocidal wars in Africa over the last 50+ years can be seen directly as against the colonizer/settler communities from Europe.
The point is to view the African continent through a multi-dimensional focus not one or two dimensions as it is currently viewed. We all can attest to how Europe is never viewed in this way ….
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So, I am watching all this coverage on the news about the recent shooting and I’m just sickened by the amount of excuses they are coming up with for this White shooter. Oh, he has PTSD, oh he had trouble in school. WTF?? If the man was Black they would have crucified his azz! Un-fricken-believable!
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^^^ Tell me about it.
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Re the shooting, what bothers me so much about this is that there were people who knew beforehand that this shooter was off and acting weird. I’d bet that a bunch of people saw or heard him do something that raised their antenna, but people will just go on about their business and pretend they don’t see anything until the person goes berserk and kills others. People like him usually cry out for help with their bizarre behavior, in advance but there’s no place set up to report them. We all have rights, but no one has the right to unleash their crazed behavior on others. I think it’s a weakness of this system that the authorities here won’t get involved until after the lunatic has hurt or killed others.
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PREACH!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41zT5UmLOLw)
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Oh, he has PTSD, oh he had trouble in school. WTF?? If the man was Black they would have crucified his azz! Un-fricken-believable!
”
”
”
@ SomeGuy, Abagond,
Fair enough. Psychologization is sort of a luxury afforded to whites in the media, whereas wide spread racial generalizations are made when the individual Black man does something. It is a perfectly ridiculous thing that the media supports with story after story: when white does wrong, the details of his story – when Blacks do the same, they are typified and shown as examples of the violent Black more generally.
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@britbrit
I fell integration wasn’t the problem. the problem was and is the sin isn’t dealt with. Integration allowed racism to be hidden. “See we’re integrated so there isn’t racism anymore”. This country never dealt with the problems and damage of slavery nor acknowledged it as a great sorrow on mankind. Whites in this country were catapulted into a position of superior standing on it’s back without having to pay a greater price. This country (USA) won’t admit past wrong doing and tries to mask it in religion. The bible even says we are free because of Jesus but don’t use this freedom to hide evil. America has done exactly that in many forms. Christianity was used to justify slavery. Sojurner Truth wrote the worse and cruelest master she had was a minister.
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/TRUTH/toc.html#birth
MLK couldn’t get the southern baptist ministers to help him by talking to their congregation about living the principles of Jesus everyday and at all times.
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@Wepnx–
This country never dealt with the problems and damage of slavery , , .
What precisely do you think this country should do to deal with the problems and damage of slavery? Some Black Americans have said the country should apologize profusely and then give them money, land, or reparations or things of that sort, but we all know that any thing of that type would end up back with Whites in a short time. No taxes for Blacks? Free education through grad school? So many Black Americans would not be interested. Psychological counseling? Free middle class housing for all Black Americans? I don’t believe any White counselors and most Black counselors either understand the damage well enough. Free most Black American prisoners? Make it mandatory for all Whites to undergo racism deprogramming classes? Put the burden on Whites to prove that their actions aren’t racist? All of these?
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Well a sincere apology would be a start. How is it we acknowledge past abuse affects an adult’s life but the centuries of abuse did no damage at all? I think real education both ugly and unpleasant (the real truth) needs to be taught in schools. There is an effort to dismiss slavery as an issue in history in certain states. Free or low cost education for Black Americans for four years of college is also a good Idea. Read MLK’s 1964 playboy interview. He said it would take these kinds of radical steps to erase the enormous head start White Americas have had since this country was founded. Whose’s freedom was this country built for? As long as White American’s cannot see the damage they caused and Black Americans cannot get past it and allow it to stop us things will continue to get worse. We as Black Americans need education on this too.
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The police is often there just to count the dead.
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@ Bulanik
The focus of the thread has moved to other things, so I’ll just drop this link for you:
“The Politics of Naming: Genocide, Civil War, Insurgency”, by Mahmood Mamdani
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n05/mahmood-mamdani/the-politics-of-naming-genocide-civil-war-insurgency
Maybe we will resume this discussion later.
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Bulanik, when did I ever make fun of you being a black girl ?
You described yourself on here….dont get paranoid like im stalking you or that Im trying to get you to spill your guts
I never said for you to spill your guts so dont portray that on me. I said Im not understanding your question or have any intention of trying to answer some leading question trying to peg me if I dont know anything about you…why should I? And I said Im not interested in you revealing yourself, so why do you portray that in me? What kind of psyche is that, Bulanik…
If you feel like Im telling you or anybody here how they are suposed to think, Im afraid that is your problem , Im just sharing my knowledge that I have an obligation to share
I came in to wonder why are you having hangups about words like “Sub”, or “Tribe”, you didnt put in context of an African contemporary conflicts discusion…Ive had that on another thread with you…rememer, racist Guevara ?And when you did clarify that is what you meant about SUB, I agreed about it…then you come in with the psyche question
The reason I came in about your SUB issue is because it is a subject that I do have to deal with if people are going to complain about using a term that does fit into my profesion when describing things, I never got you were putting into some finite discusion…
I dont understand you, you dont understand me…that is how its going to have to stay tonight
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And Im dead serius about asking you when did I ever make fun of you being a black girl ?
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And, I got to run, but, Bulanik, how can I make fun of you as a black girl when I confessed, I dont know your ethnic background at all ?
Too bad you are carrying resentments towards me that dont have much basis in fact…If you look at my posts , I have shown enormous respect for you
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Ha, Ok Bulanik….if it makes you feel better, it is frustrating to not be able to find the back door into your black female story…yes, Id love to see your picture and know your story…you see through me
“superior -white-man hang up”?….just because I defined the differance between Miles Davis and Indian music and showed Che was a racist ? (smile/ i dont know how to make the smile faces)…
But, one thing, if you think I put you down as a black girl, you at least should show me where, because that is not my style…ever, and, I would love to at least have the chance to explain what I did mean…like I said, check out my posts to you…I have always shown great respect…Ok, you get my dober up…grrrrrr…but, Ive always respected you
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o(-_-)o Dancing , dancing, dancing…She’s a dancing machine! o(-_-)o
❤ J5.
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@B.R
black girl
Woman B.R – she is a Woman, not a girl!!!!
Ok, you get my dober up…grrrrrr…but, Ive always respected you
Its decent of you to have been honest here. I think we could see that from the Grada thread to be honest. Both of you have a love and reverence of many mutual things – lets hope you can agree/agree to disagree….respectfully 🙂
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Demerea, “black girl”, my error, I though I was using Bulaniks term in talking to me, but, I scrolled up and saw whe didnt use that…my mistake, I wouldnt normaly use that phrase
No you are wrong about the Grada thread, and you were confused too, when I used the text of Grada and didnt put it into quotes
or, just show me on there any where , where I was condenscending to black people…I dont like being acused of something I didnt do
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Bulanik, I know exactly my error with you from before, I actualy thought we were getting “pub freindly”, like over a beer or something, that was my mistake. You are a very interesting and intelligent person, no doubt, but you have mischaractorised me many times over and now acusing me of things that sound strange to me…
(by the way, I dont say the things Ive said about African concepts because Im a musician, I guarentee you most musicians dont know what Im talking about)
I respect you very much, if you dont get that,I cant do anything about it, as a matter of fact it seems you are creating a persona you think is me when it seems like someone I dont even know..
but, I guess that is cyber space for you…but what ever you are implying I am, has nothing to do with real life..but, I have no intentions of crossing your lines conciously
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Demerea, if you cant show me exactly where you think I was being condescending to black people, how am I going to learn about my “mistakes” ? Im more than happy to look at something you think was that behavior on my part, but, you do have to point it it specificaly to me so I have a chance to see what it is and either set the record straight or apologise about it…Im more than happy to listen to the specifics of these acuasations..
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Bulanik…………………….ha ha
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Yeah, Bulanik, you see through me about seeing your intelligence and great posts and being curious about “wow, who is Bulanik, she is really interesing, what is her story, what does she look like ?”
you got everything else wrong about me….ha ha ha
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“BR,
So if people dont like the term “Sub Sahara Africa”, they have to come up with a term that will describe this so me and my musical colleagues who understand the genius of these concepts, have a way to describe it”
Linda,
How about these:
South of Sahel Africa, South Sahel Africa
(the Sahel was always used for zone division)
http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/what-is-the-sahel
Southern Africa, West Africa, North Africa, East Africa (these 4 descriptions bring distinctive cultures and ethnic groups to mind)
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@B.R
No you are wrong about the Grada thread, and you were confused too, when I used the text of Grada and didnt put it into quotes
I was more referring to your comments about racism and the experiences therein on this particular thread. When Bulanik and I gave you a different PoV, the conversation almost degenerated into a ‘their racism is better than our racism’ kind of argument. I personally felt that although we were/are currently living the experience, that you wanted to disregard all that we were saying. I recall you being dubious about what we were asserting to the point of disbelief in all honesty.
or, just show me on there any where , where I was condenscending to black people…I dont like being acused of something I didnt do
In one of your recent posts you said this:- Ok, you get my dober up…grrrrrr
This suggests that she has been, for want of a better word, somebody that you find frustrating – No?
With this comment in mind, I dont feel that I am accusing you of anything. It was more affirmation of what you stated and I have now pointed out where I found that this was most relevant. Thats all.
Demerea, if you cant show me exactly where you think I was being condescending to black people, how am I going to learn about my “mistakes”
I dont think in this instance I called you condescending however, I have pointed out above the use of ‘black girl’ which could be construed as being condescending. I see that you have rectified this and that you acknowledge that this was an error on your part which is fair enough and easily done.
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Apologies – the last bit of my post was not supposed to be in bold.
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Linda, yeah, OK, I apreciete that, Im thinking of “below the Sahara”…
Where I agree about distinctive differances, part of my point is that in West, East and South Africa, the “black ” Africans have a common thread in “some ” of their concepts.
Demerera, let me say again, yes, I was sloppy and hasty in using the term “black girl”, thinking I was using back at Bulanik the term she had used describing an atitude I was having…I scrolled up afterwards and discovered she didnt use that…
OK, “dober”…a little joke because dober indicates “Irish”, and I know Bulanik is in Ireland…so I was trying to use humor…I guess that is bad
So, Im sorry I dont see some condescending atutude, in fact , when I engage Bulanik, I have no intention being condescending because she is going to be well informed enough that I better bring in good arguments
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Why is the Sahara a line of demarcation in the first place? I was under the impression that the desert is growing day by day. Does that mean “Sub-Saharan Africa” is shrinking? Furthermore, why let Europeans define the boundaries of Africa anyway? The Chinese don’t allow this; why do Africans? I think people who are hostile to Africa want to neatly bundle all Black cultures together, so they are easier to classify for exploitation. Don’t Europeans have enough enemies to worry about?
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And I would like to address this somewhat insulting notion that by trying to talk about the knowledge I have gained of Afro diasoporic concepts, that I am lording it over anyone black or telling them what they should do or are suposed to do….
First of all, I am arguing these points all the time on jazz blogs, second, one of my objectives is to drive a spear to the heart of any white people who come in here implicating that black people are any way inferior to whites in any aspects. Or they might think that black Africans havent made any contributions to society or the world. These truths, which arnt mine, they are reality, are very powerful and can not be denied. Mostly these people just start babling about how ” oh black people can only create music..” which is insulting and in denial about the power of music.
And, there are many black people on here talking about how they always have to run up against Western values and their beauty standards etc They say they are meant to feel inferior in schools, and from the media, the TV , movies, comercials, etc And these truths Im talking about, and by the way, they pale ( no pun intended) next to one of the people that was brought in here ( I forgot her name darn it), are meant to provide a very real gateway to finding alternative ways of thinking and strength in concepts that have very real rewards for those who follow their leads. This person whose work was brought in , was much more advancd on this subject and was much more eloquant at what I was trying to get at.
Am I arrogant about jazz, samba and clave being advanced over rock….yes!!
I can apreciete that things on this blog can be extremly sensitive, and, I want to be aware of that…I may step over the boundries , however , in debate.
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By the way, the notion that that is all I talk about reguarding Africa is silly also,scroll up and see my statements about how I think Bulanik was very acurate about how she depicted the European colonisation but how I felt that the Islamic and Arab damage to Africa is not gone into any depth at all and is actualy a vague and nebulus subject with very little information out there at all that is really in depth. No one can go into detail about the Arab slave trade and what really happened to those slaves and their descendants except for a very skimpy attemt to say Islamc slavery was differant than slavery in the Americas….so right there is a great example that I dont only talk about drums and dancing in Africa….so , cmon, these are definite mischaractorisations of me
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@Abagond,
Could you start a thread devoted to letter-writing campaigns, on-line petitions, rallying the members to participate etc.? I don’t know how you feel about it but it could be used to rally members for causes that might otherwise go unnoticed or undiscussed in the public sphere.
Does anyone else have any thoughts about this?
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Someguy, just to clarify, Im talking about concepts, do you think Arab influenced Africa has the same culture as the places I have described ?
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Or do you want to just bury any notion that black Africans have come up with some of the most advanced concepts on the planet and hide because you think the “white man”, is trying to devide and conquer Africa ?
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Sub-Saharan Africa is about as valid a term as South of the Mason-Dixon.
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@ B. R.
I’ll answer your question with a question of my own. Do you think North Africans have the same culture as Middle Eastern Arabs?
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@B.R
So, Im sorry I dont see some condescending atutude, in fact , when I engage Bulanik, I have no intention being condescending because she is going to be well informed enough that I better bring in good arguments
I gave the example that I was referring to. You asked for me to tell you where and I said as above in the Grada thread. You said above that you thought you and Bulanik were getting “pub freindly”, like over a beer or something, but, perhaps, maybe, she was not on your wavelength at that time. It is possible, isnt it?
B.R – You think what you think as do I. You know your truth as again do I. It doesn’t mean that either are any more or less valid than the other does it? I tried in my initial correspondence on here, to show that you both have some common ground, meanwhile you seem ‘affronted’ by my comments despite the fact that I merely commennted on what you originally said.
I do not wish to antagonise the situtuion – merely highlight how things might be construed. Thats all.
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Demerea, absolutly, I dont think we were on the same wavelength, I have aluded to that for sure, and, I do apreciete everything you have said except your initial statement seemed to say that I was condescending, and if I feel I am not,of course I am going to try to defend myself…that is all it is..I have no ill will towards you or anyone on here
Someguy, no , I dont think North Africa culture is the same Middle Eastarn, but , there are huge influences, most blatently, Islam, and Islam is not going to allow cultural things like you will find in the areas Im talking about. Not only that, I am well aware that Islam and Arab tradtions have gone below the Sahara. So , Im trying to identify those concepts that are unique to the black Africans that were develped there, like layering pollyrhtyms and how the dances hook up with that.And, its much more than that, these things are just indications that great genius was at work and that carries over into philosophy and ways to aproach life
Another question to ask is, since so many slaves from Africa were sent to the Middle East, what was the influence on their culture ? Something I havent seen addressed much at all, yet I hear some Middle Eastarn drumming that leads me to beleive there was some influence, yet there is a vast differance in their time feeling
Who knows what else, like food concepts , that might have come into Arab culture because of African slavery
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B.R.
Me, as a male, would never talk down to any adult female calling her a “girl”. It is degrading and condescending.
It makes you sound like you do not respect women in general, and women of higher knowledge and intelligent in specific.
Get over your drums, man. Try to see (and hear) a bigger picture.
And why are you so interested in Bulanik’s physical appearance? And her ethnic makeup? How on earth is that going to benefit the discussion at hand? Why don’t you do some research of your own on the subject of the media lingo concerning Africa, rather than derailing the discourse.
Bulanik sounds absolutely brilliant to me, and I have no doubt that she has a matching appearance. 😉
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Hannu, I suggest you improve your reading skills
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Just to reiterate for the people who are skimming and not really paying attention:
I thought Bulanik said “you made fun of me for being a black girl”, I answered thinking she said “black girl”, ” when did I make fun of you as a black girl”…..that is what I thought she said, when I scrolled up after Demerera pointed that out, I found out Bulanik said “black woman” it was a sloppy error on my part, but, people are incriminating me for nothing…..so back off, Hannu
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And , no Hannu, I think understanding the humanity and genius of black Africans is essential in seeing through the bs the media does feed us…it sure helps me see through all the bs that is in the media from the USA to Brazil….so , I just plain dont agree with you
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B.R.
Maybe you should improve your writing skills?
Making it easier for the readers to get your “point”? Try to spell “Demerera” right. You know. Take one letter at a time. Not too hard, first graders can do that when properly tutored!
It seems that you are so blind to your own white male supremacists chauvinistic vocabulary, that you cannot understand HOW YOUR WRITING IS READ. Failing in communication, right?
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B.R.
You talk about bloody drumming. You have not contributed in any way to the media vocabulary about Africa, which was the SUBJECT. You are getting to everybody’s nerves, can you hear that?
And, no, I will not back off, B.R. No matter how a woman addresses herself or her friends…
YOU DO NOT CALL A GROWN WOMAN A “GIRL”.
You seem to be rather blind. And maybe deaf, except to the beating of your own drum.
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You need to improve your reading skills, buddy, I painstakingly have just gone over what happened , yet you are stuck in some ridiculas mind set and I just told you exactly why my insights, from my drumming ( its so much more than that) , help me see through the bs in the media
You are stiff as a board, did you know that?
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Well , Bulanik, I just went over the truth about it and you want to play naive?I thought it was your term, I was mistaken, its not a term I use at all in my posts in any other thread…
go play your psyche game it that is what you like
You never did answer about when did I put you down as a black woman….just have the courage to point it out so I can defend it or aclowledge it, othere wise you are talking hot air
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B.R.
Your commentary is as thin as the skin of your drums.
You have painstakingly (to me, and all other people reading you literary- albeit very cute- efforts) proven nothing other than your abject understanding how a proper discussion is held.
And since you seem to posses the x-ray vision of the western media, do not bother to address exactly the distorted vision that is discussed? Why not contribute to that?
And, like I said, NO GROWN MAN ADDRESSES A GROWN WOMAN AS A “GIRL”.
Get it?
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Hannu, its hard discussing what you are saying with a peice of wood
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“PIECE” of wood. P-I-E-C-E. Of wood. Or plank. Whatnot.
Piece. Not “peice”. I’m pretty sure it’s not even a word. You should have not skipped your english lesson, should you now?
Why don’t you try to respond with a proper, well-thought out answer?
Trivial, boyish banter aside:
What is your contribution to the question how media presents Africa? Since you seem to understand it is biased to say the least, why not write a concise post of it? It has been asked of you before.
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“PIECE” of wood. P-I-E-C-E. Of wood. Or plank. Whatnot.
Piece. Not “peice”. I’m pretty sure it’s not even a word. You should have not skipped your english lesson, should you now?
Why don’t you try to respond with a proper, well-thought out answer?
Trivial, childish banter aside:
What is your contribution to the question how media presents Africa? Since you seem to understand it is biased to say the least, why not write a concise post of it? It has been asked of you before.
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Only a tiny fraction of the Black slaves shipped to the Middle East actually survived the journey. Upon arrival, most of the men were castrated and the females were used as sex slaves. Any time a child was born to these slaves the infant was immediately put to the sword upon birth. This is the major reason there is little “Sub-Saharan African” admixture in the Middle East.
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gees, Hannu, I answered many times over here…by being moved and influenced by black African culture, I see through the media reports general stereotypes….I have an afinity for the people so I dont trust media presentations in general, whether about Africa, the USA or Brazil. But, I dont agree with Bulaniks complaint about SUB..what is such a big deal about that? It isnt even a thread, it certainly isnt an international issue, its one person’s opinion on an open thread
And you just proved one of my points of idiots who just think Im talking about drumming, and that that is all it is, as thought its frivilous or something….thanks for being a great example
And I resent you coming in here after I painstakingly described what happened and heavy handidly talking a lot of unnesasary bs
after I said I misunderstood what was said , and repeated back the phrase I thought was said, are you calling me a liar?..
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Please, let’s not play spelling or grammar Nazi. As long as you can understand what is being said, try to be tolerant of people’s writing styles. This isn’t a classroom.
On a side note, I thought Bulanik was a White dude! Go figure, crazy me!
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Ive got a comment in moderation, it should come up so , in the meantime:
Someguy, that is very interesting what you just said…Im just not sure its true ( of course there might be some truth to it) since in Saudi Arabia and other Mid East countries, there seems to be a lot of admixture and phenotype looking black citizens
But, Im not an expert on that so I defer to anyone who is
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Yeah, Someguy, Im the resident asumed misspeller,
I always feel people are frustrated with their arguments if they go after my spelling
I dont know what ethnic background Bulanik is either, not that Im losing sleep over it, so , for her to acuse me of putting her down as a black woman is perplexing to me, caught me off guard ,and , Im still waiting for some kind of proof that I implied that, to at least ackowledge that and apologise or defend what I meant because it surely would be a misunderstanding…..putting down black women is not something that is part of me
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B.R.
No, Bulanik certainly is not a white guy. Where the hell did you get that impression from?
And why that would affect any of you commentary or your impression of her?
No wonder you were so curious of her background, because it does affect your opinion on other people!!
Whether they are black or white, american, african or european! Why does that matter?
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I apogize:
I mixed Some Guys’ comment with B.R.’s
B.R.: I apologize my mistake.
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better wait for my comment in moderation before you apologise, Hannu……….ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ( at least Im trying to answer your question on that moderated comment he he he)
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I apologise in advance for anything I said on that comment that might offend you……ahhhhhhhhhhhh
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I can’t explain it, but it had no bearing on my respect for Bulanik. It’s hard to determine someone’s gender through the medium of text; at least for me it is. Hopefully I can be forgiven for such a social faux pas. It’s not like this is the first time. I forget who it was, but I thought this White guy on here was a Black woman! That was uncomfortable.
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It definitly happens in cyber space , SomeGuy….if people dont put their picture up and tell exactly their background, how can anyone tell? Its very understandable
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I’m too tired to decipher humans.
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@Someguy
What do you think my gender is and what made you come to that conclusion?
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@ Demerera
Uhhhh, female?? Because you have an “a” at the end of your name?
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Hannu, while Im waiting for my comment to be liberated, Ill say this about your question, I guarentee you, all these media reporters and their staff and all of them puttng out the stereo types have no idea of the concepts Im talking aboiut….its because of the concepts Im talking about ( which Im not sure you can grasp either , no insult) that I can see through their stereo types
I gotta check out, when my comment comes up and if you want to discuss it some more, Ill be happy to talk some more
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@Someguy
Correct – but it is by accident that my ‘moniker’ has this marker and not by design 🙂
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Hannu, is it also just posible, as you have misunderstood a post that I also misunderstood a post ? and repeated a question that used the phrase I thought it was, not a phrase I would use, and I msread it? and Im thankful Demerera pointed it out so I could explain my error, because that is not how I refer to black women
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Abagond, I dont know if its too late, but, since I kind of gave an answer to Hannu’s question, you dont have to put up the comment in moderation……if its too lost in the shuffle, no problem
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I’m a “white” guy from Finland, just to make it clear to whom such things matter. My face, my name, lol 😀
B.R.: First question: Why does it make any difference to you, where Bulanik comes from, or what she looks like? It is not courteous to ask such a thing from a fellow blog commenter, and it does make you seem slightly creepy.
B.R. Second question: Why do you not contribute to the biased image portrayed by the western media of Africa? You keep evading the subject.
Or is it possible that excluding drumming and dancing, you have nothing else to contribute?
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@B.R
I sense that Hannu’s comment in reference to the srpelling of my moniker, is more about the ‘misuse’ of the way it is spelt i.e. some commenters deliberately mis-spell it to be disrespectful, more than anything?
Maybe your perception of Bulanik has unwittingly informed your responses to her more than you realise?
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*spelling* lmao – I am using a computer that is not familiar to me
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For me, gender really isn’t an issue. If you have some knowledge; break off a few pieces, dip it in some wine and share the bounty.
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@ Melody (aka Dee)…
I really don’t mean this as a personal attack, but it must be nice to tell others all of that when you clearly admitted to being born into privilege.
I agree that it is indeed great to be optimistic and hard working. But as a person who grew up poor, I can tell you that some of what you said just doesn’t hold true.
Brothawolf made some excellent points in response to you. This isn’t to say that you are completely wrong, but you are blinded by privilege. It doesn’t sound like you’ve had to struggle very much in life. Please forgive me if I’m making assumptions, as I don’t know you.
But your comments sound like the “bootstrap” rhetoric I’ve heard very often. Be what you want to be, make your dreams happen, etc…despite what the media would have you believe, this is only possible for a few very lucky people in the world.
No one should be punished for being born wealthy or privileged, but they should be conscious of those less fortunate. And they shouldn’t take their privilege for granted and assume that everybody else just doesn’t work hard enough. We don’t all have the same opportunities in life. Sometimes we simply have to play the hand we were dealt and make the best of it.
It is wonderful that you have ambition, honestly. You will certainly go very far with that attitude. And your father is a success story, truly inspiring. But for every person that is able to make it due to hard work and luck, there are many more who don’t.
It’s not a matter of perseverance. It’s not even about blaming others. It’s simply about recognizing that (as you stated) life isn’t fair. There is a lot of inequality on many levels and America is no exception to that…it never has been.
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Its nice to see directors keep close ties with actors that are true to a role. Samuel Jackson/Quinton Tarantino(sp), Johnny Depp/Tim Burton. It kind of brings a certain magic to the screen. It’s really fascinating.
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Thanks for the info Bulanik. It’s always good to get more than one side of the story.
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Cognitive dissonance: An 18 year old Steve Winwood singing Gimme Some Lovin’.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR_1p3E09do)
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@Fiamma
I know that song, I have heard it in movies. it is a nice song and now I know the band.
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Cmon, Demerera, you just made the mistake yourself, Hannu didnt mention your moniker having an a, SomeGuy did
Please, this is starting to get petty, you, Hannu, just made the same mistake I did, and you are putting me up to unnescasary scrutiny for nothing
Bulanik , your free psycho analysis is worth half the price
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Hannu, your referring to “drums” as frivilous in this discusion is an A number one example of what I showed above how white people are going to sluff off these concepts as nothing important..
Ive told you before and Ill tell you now, it has everything to do with the subject you are asking about. If you see the humanity in the people who are being stereotyped, that is your light to see you throught the bs that the media will feed you.
If we could see the cultures of all the refugee camps in the world, we would feel much more humanity about them.And not just catagorise them as people in misery…
If you cant get that, that is your problem, I dont think you really grasp the concepts Im talking about, and I dont think Bulanik does either.
Remember this, this is Open Thread, nothing I said is derailing, Bulaniks pet peeve about those words is her opinion, its not internatial issues on te table, its not even a thread, its a beef she has about sub , tribes and something else…I can use sub Sahara Africa in my talks to people about the black African concepts and way of life through culture, drum dance food ect( not all black Africans have this culture by the way), so , I have something to bring about this.
What I say about these words is, its about intent, these people will just change the words along with you, they are that slick, you have to see through their intent. And understanding the culture and humanity of a people and having an affinity for them is a sure way to see through the bs
You have been close to rude to me Hannu, you made the same mistake I did and now Demerera about mis reading things, Im tired of that pettiness, meanwhile take a minute and try to figure out the concepts Im talking about and think about it
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And now a disclaimer, what I will say has nothing to do with diminishing the slave trade to the Americas which is the most brutal of all slave trades…..
Bulanik, why are you painting the African slave experiance in the Middle East as something quaint?
You know the Arab is not going to have a courtship with the African slave and invite her parents to come to the wedding..she is going to be thrown in a harem with a bunch of other women and he will have his way with her ( rape?) like he wants to…and the castrated eunichs will be guarding them…
You seem to have a need to smooth it over and make it less horrible than it is..for me, Islam and Chritianity reeked more havoc on the indegenou people and their culture in Africa, equaly, and Im not talking about which slavery was more brutal.Im not diminishing the European slave trade, Im saying millions and millions of slaves taken out by both had the same affect on Africa as well as their cultures
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Demerera, I just saw the comment that Hannu made about spelling, I missed that, so , I was mistaken, sorry, but still , no , it was not a freudian slip or perception, it was merely reading and typing too fast, I was rushed that afternoon
I think making anything more out of that is petty, and , since Hannu did do the same thing it just goes to show you….
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Hannu, I dont know why I have to respond to this, about why I said I was curious about what Bulanik lookid like, but, just read what Bulanik said before, Im jesting back…and wtf, Im curious about many posters on here what there background is , what talking to them face to face would be like and Im curious as to what they look like. So really, why are so stiff and petty about this ?
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Im equaly curious about what Matari, Brothawolf, Abagond , Truthbetold,JT and others who dont have a picture up, would be like talking with in person and what their background are and what they look like….so get off it….
Lots of very good looking woman come in here and put their pictures up….its always a pleasure to see them, they all look beautiful who have come in here, my hats off to them
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@B.R
There was no intention on my part to draw out this issue. I think I have been clear enough in my comments based on the responses you gave in that I was NOT telling you what you did but merely SUGGESTING how you might have come across.
I don’t appreciate being labelled ‘petty’ either, certainly not in the context of this conversation.
I suggest we end this discourse. It has become tedious.
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Yeah, what ever Demerera, I didnt say you were petty, I said the subject of trying to find some kind of racism or sexism or whatever , in my remark, is petty..I also noted I was wrong about what you said and apologised…take it how ever you want
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@B.R
Yeah, what ever Demerera, I didnt say you were petty, I said the subject of trying to find some kind of racism or sexism or whatever , in my remark, is petty..I also noted I was wrong about what you said and apologised…take it how ever you want
Look at what you said and see how it might be interpreted. Your response above would have been more readily accepted if you had just said ‘I didnt say you were petty’ but, coupled with the attitude, it suggests something else to me. Never mind ettiquette, your nettiquette is severely lacking.
Odd thing that I have never been able to understand about you B.R. So called ‘race realists’ like Doug and co pop up on here and you rarely if ever take them to task but, you are happy to continue this conversation with me and demonstrate the barely concealed disregard you have for me.
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I posted a pic of myself a couple of times now because I wanted to place a face behind the screen name. As you can see, I’m an Asian woman. I can understand why some people don’t post pics. People online can be downright rude and weird. Besides, I can’t say I blame folks. There are nefarious losers who click/download your photos and do whatever God knows what with it.
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Id say that is a really unfair claim about me, and my discourse againt some of the race realists , Demerera,I have said these thngs to these people, and, quite frankly, Matari , and Brothawolf and Ace and many others did such a better job that mostly all I could do is sign in and say ” I agree” meanwhile, I have to endure this kind of stuff from Bulanik, who , when she perceives that someone is makig good points against her has to resort to this kind of responce
“So this is quite something from a white man who thinks it is his thing to tell black people what is authentically black enough by his standards. Maybe making fun of, and questioning my blackness is your particular way of being aggressive towards to “Bulanik”, isn’t it, B.R.?”
This is just some of the vitrol I have had to endure from Bulanik. What ever straw man Bulanik wants to make out of me, is her business, why you cronicly come in like on the Grada thread to defend her, but dont say anything about stuff like that speaks to your misguided attempts to seem to , I dont know, psyco analyse me.
And I still have no idea where I put down Bulanik for being a black women, I mean have the courage to show me where I put you down Bulanik, dont blow hot air and not back it up .
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@B.R
Id say that is a really unfair claim about me, and my discourse againt some of the race realists , Demerera,I have said these thngs to these people, and, quite frankly, Matari , and Brothawolf and Ace and many others did such a better job that mostly all I could do is sign in and say ” I agree”
What I am saying B.R is that in terms of the ‘battles’ you choose to engage in, I have never seen you drawing out discussions with them in the same way you chose to with me in a conversation which you find ‘petty’ and to which I have stated is ‘tedious’.
What ever straw man Bulanik wants to make out of me, is her business, why you cronicly come in like on the Grada thread to defend her, but dont say anything about stuff like that speaks to your misguided attempts to seem to , I dont know, psyco analyse me.
I don’t know half of what you are saying here but in terms of so called psycho analysing you, I can only go by what I see on here. It may not reflect how you speak in real life or give a full insight into who you are and you are entitled to refute any assertion I make about you however, I dont know you so I can only go by THE WAY YOU COME ACROSS to me in terms of your posts.
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“And, as much as B.R. feels he has earned the right to be “down” with the culluds, and plays the game – I don’t take to his condescension and stereotyping.”
more strange vitrol
“B.R. knows best about blacks. How to be truly black. Maybe you should give lessons! ”
This type of stuff comes at me, Hannu comes in heavy handidly and rude raging me about stuff Ive already explained, and you wonder why Im getting testy, Demerera ?
When Im acused of putting down Bulanik for being black, and I say I dont even know what ethnic background she is, I get hit for that….this is plain and simple petty….
Like I said, I apologied to you for it, why are you so intent like on the Grada thread to look for something wrong in me , Demerea…when I said, Ive experianced anti Americanism, you have to make sure I know that isnt like being black, I already knew that, why would you asume I dont? And I dont agree with your analasys on the Grad thread of what went down, I wasnt pushin at all what racism is worse…I listened mosty, but said what I had to say, which was very relevant to the conversation…..I even brought in words by the author and was misunderstood and sluffed off…no , the Gradathread , while being very informative, was not satisfying
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@B.R
As you continue to overlook what I am saying to you then I think at this stage I would have to say that there is nothing more to discuss. As I have said now more than once, I can only judge on how you come across on here. It is of course possible that you have been misunderstood but to have to reiterate this again and again and again to you has become tiresome.
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Demerera, these discusions get drawn out becuase of the attacks I endured like above…when the race realists personaly attacked my position, I responded very similarly….that you didnt see it is not my problem
I dont really have a problem with you Demerera, or Bulanik, in reality. I respect her enormously and think she is brilliant, but, Im not going to be attacked ridiculasly and not responce, Im sorry if you got caught up in the middle of something that is more between Bulanik and me….she just cant stand to have someone come up with good points with her brilliant arguments
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…..and all this is over Bulanik saying I put her down as a black woman and Im still waiting for some kind of proof of what I said so I can either ackowledge it and apologise or defend my position of a misunderstanding….so , I am still waiting, all this other stuff around it is perplexing and a waste of all of our time…just Im not going to take insults….I havent put Bulanik or you down at all in any way, Demerera….but my personal statements are getting raked over the coals and misquoted and misunderstood like an mf
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“Im equaly curious about what Matari, Brothawolf, Abagond , Truthbetold,JT and others who dont have a picture up..”
************
@ B.R. You already know that I’m black/male/hetero. Here’s a thin slice of how I see myself.
I’m tall, medium build, look younger than my actual age and notice that women (in their 20’s through 60’s) seem to look at me a lot! LOL : ))
Outwardly, I appear to many people as an alpha-male. Inwardly, I generally don’t put myself in situations that cause me to be noticed, and I abhor being in any position that requires being a leader/person in-charge who’s responsible for others. The only person I want to be the “BOSS” of is me.
Nonetheless, I have a strong disdain for anyone that’s not my boss trying to boss me around!!
I’m happily single. 🙂 I excel at giving people – friends, family, associates their own space. lol In other words, I’m good at leaving people alone.
I have a comfortably engaging/endearing presence with many when I’m afforded the opportunity to socialize with folks one on one. My strong suites are: encouraging others, thinking of countless/endless positive possibilities that exist outside of the box and challenging everyone (myself included) to do the “right thing” – according to WHO you are and WHERE you are. Everyone should be who the Creator made them to be.
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@ Bulanik:
Oh, no!!! Oh, Bulanik, I’m so sorry to hear of your loss! I feel for you. I do understand what you’re going through at this very moment. Gosh, if you ever need to talk, please know I’m here for you. I can send you my email if you like. Just know you have a friend. My sympathies and prayers go out to you and your family at this difficult time. God Bless!
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@Bulanik
I am truly sorry for your loss. Sincere and deepest sympathies to you and your family at this time. Whilst it is merciful for your father that his passing was quick, I realise that for you guys this means you may not have had time to say goodbye and for that I am sorry for you all.
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Bulanik
I’m so sorry. You’re in my prayers …
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@ Bulanik,
Prayers and well wishes for you and your loved ones!!!!
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As you can see, I am a man; just in case the name SomeGuy didn’t already tip you off:
(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f242/Rex_Stone/Sept2001.jpg)
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Damn, my condolences, Bulanik. I lost my father to cancer several years ago, so I know what you are going through.
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@SW6
Apologies for not updating you all – yes I did. Thank you so much for your concern x
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@SW6
Much appreciated 🙂
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Bulanik, Im really sorry to hear that….And Im sorry if I offended you in any way recently…I have always respected you..we have differances, but, I think you are fantastic and I hope you can make it through with your loss
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Matari, thanks for your description, I actualy remember you smewhat describing yourself before…you are definitly someone I could enjoy sitting down and chatting with….Ive learned from you on here
Kwamla’s picture is up, so I see what he looks like, but, Id love to have a chat with him….id like to talk to Demerera face to face also ( lots of people on here)
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@ Bulanik
My condolences.
(In real life I never know what to say in such circumstances; it’s even more awkward online…)
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@ Bulanik
Sorry to hear about your dad. God has him now. He’s in good hands.
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@ Bulanik
I’m so sorry to hear about your loss. Stay strong and just remember that time will numb the pain, you will make it through. God Bless.
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@Bulanik, So sorry to hear of your loss. Thinking of you and yours.
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@ Bulanik
You have my deepest condolences.
No one ever knows what to do when they lose a loved one so suddenly. All we can do is take the time to grieve and continue to move on with our lives. I wish you and your family the best of luck healing from your father’s loss. *Hugs* If you ever need to speak with anyone, I’m sure you know there are plenty here who will be more than happy to listen.
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As well as my condolances to Bulanik, which Ive mentioned above, I want to say Im sorry to Bulanik, Demerera and Hannu if I seemed a little testy, Ive been on anti biotics the last 10 days for an absolutly non life threatening but nescasary couple of operations and Ive just been out of sorts because Im not used to them..I promise to try to not be this way in the future.
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Bulanik:
I am really very sorry for your loss. My deepest sympathies to you and your family. I wish you a lot of strength to go through your ordeal.
Yours, Hannu
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@ Bulanik
I’d like to offer my condolences to you. Always remember that the spirit of your father, and anyone close who dies, always lives on deep inside of you. They are always still there.
Knowing this is true feel free to express your feelings in any way that allows you to find comfort and direction at this time.
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@ Truthbetold
The book you talked about in the other thread s nothing more than pure truth in my opinion. White racism needs to be classified as a mental disorder.
The other day I ran into a white guy who was pretty much making up any and everything about his belief that Martin attacked Zimmerman. My response to him was “Are you going to testify? because you are talking like you were hiding in the bushes.” He then went on a rant about how what he said is the truth according to the cops and facts. He claims throughout all of this that he is not racist and that black mentality is what leads me to believe Martin is innocent. I stopped the guy long enough to ask him at what point I brought up race. He then goes on to call me delusional because I brought it up etc. I also noticed that throughout our little chat whenever he was wrong about something he would change the subject as if it was never discussed and would go on to make personal insults.
Now through all this what caught me the most was his ability to make up things he believed I said or should be saying even though I had never said it. I also noticed it with the racist in here. They always have this delusion that something was said when it was not. For example the constant talk about Africa. 9 times out of 10 it is always some hard up racist that wants to bring p Africa and slavery and no one was even talking about that.
People usually get locked up or hearing and seeing things that are not there and I think the same should be done to racist.
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for*
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@ Sharina
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Most times when I hear talk about slavery it’s someone White. They absolutely cannot comprehend that so much happened after slavery, many PoC have current day grievances. Many Whites are so delusional that they actually believe their society is almost completely free of bias against non-Whites. They really, truly believe that.
What’s the definition of a delusion? A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Sounds about right to me.
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@ Sharina and Someguy
I stop posting on a daily basis for two reasons:
1. I have my own blog now
2. Whites are sick and being around them infects me with their disease.
I’m in my thirties and have my own family and life to live. I have my garden, artwork, music and poetry. Whites are so far off the beaten path that I’m exhausted just being around them. I literally need to rest after interaction with them.
They are like an incubus literally and figuratively. They steal your music, clothes, dance, walk, talk, men and women. They want your hair and your body, both romantically and physique-wise. Yet they have no trouble reminding us that we are inferior to them. Such madness!
They are ALWAYS in your face, willing you to bend to their will, their ideas and their doctrines. The more you resist, the harder they come at you. They steal your energy, your soul and your spirit.
Is it a wonder why they live 8 years longer than us? They suck you dry!
You get all riled up, angry, irate and irritated and upset, cant sleep, can’t eat, stomach-queasy, high blood pressure…and they are perfectly fine. Wonder why?
Because whites are the masters of destruction. Every society they’ve visited have died; either:
1. economically, like Africa
2. literally, like my Aboriginal ancestors
3. or spiritually like many coloured victims all over the globe
They LIVE, eat and breathe fire and brimstone. Whites will build something up just to have it torn down to “study” the destruction of that thing. Hitler killed for fun…to see the human body react to death. Albert Pike, the founder of the KKK would remove the phallus of the black man to study it, cut it up and study “why” it was bigger than the white phallus.
Why on earth would anyone do that? Because that’s who and what they are! Destructive to the core.
Ever wonder why they love to be around us? Ever wonder why they can’t seem to leave us alone, even in cyber-space? They feed off of our energy, our spirit, our soul.
The best thing I’ve ever done in my life, is to cut out white folks from it. With the exception of my immediate family, I’m proud to say I have no white friends, no white lovers, no white alliances, which is an oxymoron, and no white interactions.
I will be finished with my online schooling soon and then I’ll work from home, away from them and their psychosis.
Do yourself and your mind a favour:
Stay away from them. They are destructive.
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@ Truthbetold
Wow!!!
You’ve got it bad!!! But I will admit I can empathise with most of what you’re saying. I will say this though its important to understand we are all collectively on this planet involved in a mutual relationship. Regardless of whether we like, accept, deny or acknowledge this or not. There is a co-existence here.
From what I’ve come to know, if truthbetold, white people could and would not exist if Black people were eliminated from this world. But this is and would not be the case the other way round. This is the essence of what you’re describing in those sentiments about white people. Its actually true.
Yet despite all of that we are locked in a type of “symbiotic” relationship with them. Thats because, whether we choose to admit or accept it as well, they are an extension of Black people…of ourselves! They may choose not to accept this, we may choose not to accept this…We may all choose to deny this but factually this is the reality we’ve all collectively created for ourselves to exist in.
Its a truth that can only really be appreciated or understood on a more profound deeper spiritual level. But its one we all will come to realise eventually when we are ready to.
All we can do in the meantime is find the best, most tolerable and mutually enjoyable way to work out our existences together.
But hey…no one said it was gonna be easy when we all signed up !!!
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Statements from Kwamla and Truthbetold that are sure things to reflect on….
Truthbetold, I think a person has to be true to themselves about where they want to live and the people they want to be around.I took my Afro Brazilian wife and bi racial , bi national son and planted down in a place where we could find our equalibrium to be ourselves, yet, we still have faced discrimination in one way or the other, but, not as much if we had picked another place….
I honestly cant just tell any black person to just trust white people , or their intentions , I definitly say each person has to feel their way out and what works best for them.
Kwamla, I find a lot of truth in what you are saying
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..and, I have to say, Im an unabashed supporter and practitioner of interracial relationships , mairadge and having bi racial and bi national children , but not at the expence of bashing black men or women for other choices
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…and I have to qantify that to say, I really dont bash any “race” or religion for wanting to be with themselves…it would be hypocritical to say I support a black person for wanting to be away from white people and not give the same right to a white person…I just dont want to be around that white person…
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Kwamla,
Truthbetold‘s comments would be right at home at Stormfront if you swapped their racial polarity.
Were I to ask your opinion of such beliefs, would you still be so sympathetic? If no, then how would that not be a double-standard on your part?
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@ Kwamla
See what I mean? A conversation between you and I are intercepted and derailed, non other than Randolph himself. I’ve learned so much about them on this blog…and from reading Mein Kampf. A book every black person should read.
Be honest with me…do blacks try to steal anything away from whites? We don’t want their language, food, art, dance, music…Let them keep Elvis, without Bo Diddley and James Brown, Elvis would not exist…we don’t want anything that belongs to them. They are not an indigenous peoples so what do they have that we desire?
But they are ALWAYS in our faces!
On my blog, they post the most revolting things about blacks and fetishes, which I send to spam…they are frankly obsessed with us in a most unsettling way.
I’ve never been comfortable around them. Have you ever looked deeply into their eyes? It’s as if they’re not really “there”. As if the key component of what make a person whole is missing.
The book Sharina and I were discussing is called The psychopathic racial personality by Dr. Wright. It’s a very short read, under 3 hours, by it’s jam packed with startling truths.
In fact, it shocked and scared me. It’s as if this man described them so darn well, he crept into their minds and just wrote what they’re about. page 2 describing the psychopathic nature of whites gave me shivers. It also made me reflect on every relationship I’ve ever had with them and realized, much to my chagrin, I’ve been used, abused, mocked, exploited and dismissed.
The worst mistake black people are making is believing that whites like them and that they will change. Because they won’t. Changing their ways will mean the destruction of the race as a whole. It means the transference of power and their global demise. And we both know they won’t let that happen. Not without a war.
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“The worst mistake black people are making is believing that whites like them and that they will change.”
@truthbetold
Not to get in your face …
but It seems like you have ignored anything i have said to you…of late. Do you share the same feeling towards Randy towards me? Does your belief about Whites extend to people who are white but actively attempt to denounce the system and oppose the people you oppose? Hope to hear back from you because it is important to know where you stand more than just in terms of ALL Blacks/All Whites dichotomy.
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@ Randy
There is a basic human trait you seem incapable of assimilating and that is empathy. Empathy for people who look and think decidedly different from yourself. Its become a waste of time for me to try to explain this to you. There is a world of difference between Truthbetold comments and, as you put it, those you would find on Stormfront.
The experience of white people Truthbetold speaks to is one you are more interested in denying. I contrast this with, say, comments from B.R (also white) who while not necessarily agreeing with everything in those comments at the very least can empathise with them through his own.
Where is that same basic human quality displayed in your own comments Randy?
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@ Truthbetold
“…The book Sharina and I were discussing is called The psychopathic racial personality by Dr. Wright. It’s a very short read, under 3 hours, by it’s jam packed with startling truths….”
That sounds like a book I’d like to have a look at. I’ll check it out. Thanks
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Kwamla,
I understand empathy, and would ask if you would have the same for someone who made the same types of comments as Truthbetold but with a swapped racial polarity. If you cannot be empathetic in such a case, perhaps that speaks volumes about your own prejudices and biases.
Please demonstrate how the previous comments differ from those of a vitriolic white racist.
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JT,
You’re close to connecting the dots here. For you see what is commonly referred to as “anti-racism” is really just racism with an orientation towards a favored group. Notice the volume of criticism towards putatively white commenters who express bigotry and the deafening silence towards putatively black commenters who express bigotry.
Take the red pill and wake up.
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Lawd…
Even on a black blog we cannot talk amongst ourselves and help each other to heal from this global system of supremacy. Abagond, aren’t you tired? I’m exhausted.
Kwamla, you’ll find the book shockingly true. Another book on the way for me is Yurugu by Dr. M. Ani. My friend read it and got so worked up. She explained how Dr. Ani outlines, with shocking clarity, the white power structure and the psychosexual need to dominate blacks in all arenas.
Kwamla, you bring up an interesting point that without us, whites would perish. They know this also. That’s why they DID NOT kill us off during slavery. Their dependency on Africans and Africa and thusly our way of life is evident throughout history. The South after the Civil War being a clear example.
Music, food and vernacular being amongst them also. This explains why they felt the need to take over rap and hip-hop making it the violent and misogynistic entity it has become. Most of the record producers are whites, Clive Davis and Tommy Mottola being amongst the most prominent.
When I traveled with my agency, I met a great and older musician at Buddy Guy’s club on Wabash Avenue in Chicago. He was from Mississippi and knew Guy, King and Howlin’ Wolf when they were young ‘uns.
He told me tales of how he was promised great money for his talents but all he ever got was a stale sandwich for days of playing with his band. Meanwhile, the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd and the Beatles got rich using the same chords but with a “hard” beat.
This list goes on and on.
You know why they fight us and return here day after day?
Because despite all the feigned outrage and yelling and fussin’, they know every single word we say is TRUE.
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, I can hardly speak for Truthbetold, but, let me try to say some words on my own for her….
I know you are a person who has spoken very well here on this blog , so, I dont question your integrity about this.
Since you have spoken well, you know only too well how horrible the discrimination and obsticles for black Americans are in the USA.
I dont think you can blame Truthbetold, or anyone who is black, for reaching a point where they just have had enough and need space from the source of the frutstation….space in their minds…and maybe reach a point where they dont trust white people…and feel the need to really keep them at a distance until they know their motives are not bad…and even then, be on the lookout for falsness….its just a constant weight to bear and sometimes its nice to not lift the weight…
I kind of implied that I dont want to lift that weight with my Afro Brazilian wife and bi racial bi national son…Im lifting other weight, being in an anti American situation…I prefer it than lifting weight with my son on the line of racial defining , psycho analysis, pegging etc..I did make my choice, not racialy but nationaly, but I will tell you this , and I just passed through the USA recently, and it just confirms that, it is dificult and tough to deal with racial dynamics in the racial charged USA, but there is no country that is facing the diolougue like the USA is doing about the racial dynamic, there is great presence of black owned businesses ( I dealt with them while I was there), and black Americans and foreigners traveling in an open climate of their prosperity on display in a very healthy way…and I tell you, you dont see that in Brazil…shame for Brazil…so along with the tension and hightened frustration at the racial dynamic in the USA, there is something else that is special, I cant put it into words , but it is there…be glad to be on the right side
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I fogot to say, Im addressing JT, for sure dont listen to Randy about that
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Truthbetold, Im going to totaly co sign with you about the rip off of black Americans by the music business
Most , I say most, white people like some kind of music in the American popular cannon that has some kind of black American foundation. They are mimicking in a way a black person. Even if they dont know it or want to know it
I just plain admit it. I am seriously influenced by black men and women in my art. I do love certain European harmonies and composers, but, I mostly want the harmony to go over a black Afro diasporic base, of course, Im also seriously influenced by black Afro Brazilian, Afro Cuban, Haitian , Jamaican and pure African artists also.
Those are the concepts that I pay homage to when I go to a bandstand or studio or practice room…again, I do want some European harmony in there, and , I do listen to some advanced North Indian concepts by some of the best tabla players, but, I dont pursue performing in that genre now, as I have in the past…
at least I admit it…Im just not getting rich at it in any form or fasion , but my wife and me hit the Billboard charts at one point
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@ Truthbetold
“…You know why they fight us and return here day after day?
Because despite all the feigned outrage and yelling and fussin’, they know every single word we say is TRUE…”
This is the reality starring people like Randy in the face. Yet they deny it and refuse to acknowledge their own behaviour. I have no desire to peruse posts at blogs like Stormfront and hang around there day after day. What would be the point of that? What would I learn that I didn’t already know about racist white people? What would be the point in me trying to educate them on their erroneous beliefs?
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@ Kwamla
You can’t.
Whites only believe what they want and preferably, if it is taught from someone who looks like them. Tim Wise and Robert Jensen know this, being apart of the system and grew filthy rich from it. Yet neither of them paid due respect to Neeley Fuller and Marcus Garvey who founded the ideology to which they pirated.
How very clever! And how very EXPECTED.
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@ BR and JT
Since I probably won’t respond to anything else from the white posters on here, I’m going to be brutal.
I don’t believe or trust anything you say. Fixing the system that you are apart of and benefit from every day would result in the annihilation of your race and no one is going to die for it.
Even if you marry and have black children it is very possible to still harbour racist beliefs and practice them unknowingly by the most detrimental practice whites exhibit.
Silence.
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@ Truthbetold
Did you miss this discussion some of us got into on the “Reading Thucydides” thread? We covered some of the book Yurugu by Dr. M. Ani. in depth.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/reading-thucydides/
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JT , its very good to know when people want distance , also
And , Ill tell you, you can always find me in the grey area
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Kwamla , thank you for helping me to remember the name of Dr Ani
She is someone who made a great impresion on me…
And , just to say in general , I can only try to absorb what Truthbetold , said here , truth can be said in many ways. Surly something to reflect on , I definitly reflect on things Truthbetold sais….and also know, I loved talking about the Village, a place Ive performed and hung out also , her music insights , and life insights and tips, I surly can respect her request for distance at what ever times she needs it…..
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Kwamla,
You avoided the question, which was about double standards. Also, one doesn’t have to “hang out at Stormfront day after day” to know it exists and what it’s about.
Unless you’re prepared to admit that you have a differing tolerance to bigotry depending out the race of the source and the target, then perhaps you might explain to us why you think that doesn’t comprise a double-standard.
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“Unless you’re prepared to admit that you have a differing tolerance to bigotry depending out the race of the source and the target, then perhaps you might explain to us why you think that doesn’t comprise a double-standard.”
******
BROKEN RECORD DEPARTMENT MATERIAL
ad nauseam!
The posed (BS) question has been answered many times on this site – which begs the question, why is it still being asked CONTINUALLY by the SAME person? Is he suffering from mere memory loss, or some other mental/intelligence deficiency/degenerative condition??
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Just read this on Tumblr:
Source:
http://youngbadmanbrown.tumblr.com/post/27924899682/karnythia-inanely-dealt-flailing-to-veracity
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@ Matari:
It’s Randy. There’s no need for explanation. lol! 😀
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This is why I hardly ever argue with Randy. It is a waste of breath. If you press hard enough he will move his goalposts but then move them back later when you are not looking. And then start repeating the same old stuff all over again.
He is big into:
The Fallacious Flip (what he calls swapping the racial polarity):
http://www.theunapologeticmexican.org/glosario.html#fallacious
The Bootstrap Myth:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/12/the-bootstrap-myth/
The mantra argument:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/the-mantra-argument/
The Fallacious Flip and Bootstrap Myth flow from:
Just World Doctrine
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/27/just-world-doctrine/
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The racists are big on repetition. I’m not sure whether they’re trying to hypnotize us via sessions of repetitive droning, or if they’re minds have simply come to a screeching halt….
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@ Truth
Thanks for the book recommendation. It is something I have wondered about myself.
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@ Randy
“…You avoided the question, which was about double standards. Also, one doesn’t have to “hang out at Stormfront day after day” to know it exists and what it’s about…”
The answer lies in the reflection of your own non-contrasted behaviour; the repeated responses from other commentators you continually fail to listen to; and your own wilful avoidance of years of unanswered question on this blog.
Go figure…
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What boggles my mind about a position like Randy is taking is that, after all the proof over and over that there is discrimination and obsticles put in the way of black Americans , he still takes a position like things are equal between everyone….
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The Color of crime. Violent crime in this country is overwhelmingly committed by black people. In every state of the country, although blacks make up a small percentage of the population, that account for a staggering majority of violent crime committed.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t882803/
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Kwamla,
You’re still dodging. That the greek chorus here tends to be biased against certain positions does not by itself validate them, and I’m surprised you’d fall back on that for justification.
Abagond,
You’re probably right about my support of the “Fallacious Flip”, though I’d argue it’s not fallacious in the context I’m presenting. I’ve attempted to be quite consistent with regards to my disdain for double-standards.
At the heart of my overall criticisms lie what I think is a fundamentally dishonest narrative. My premise is that many who advocate “anti-racism” are really advocating nothing of the kind, rather they favor “corrective racism” or perhaps you might call it “prescriptive bigotry”. At least let’s have truth in labeling.
What’s generally NOT being offered is “non-racism”, which one might reasonably infer is promoted by the term “anti-racism”, but which quite clearly isn’t.
Those like JT, who are sometimes called “guilty white liberals”, seem to discover this the hard way, learning that regardless of how they debase and supplicate themselves to those who previously have been oppressed, that they only get oppression back in return.
One commenter even replied that the only path to redemption for white people is for the inherently evil race to be exterminated. Some “anti-racism”, that!
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B.R.:
I’m saying that people ought to treat one another equally. If bigotry is bad, it’s bad for everyone. If racism is bad, it’s bad for everyone.
Do you believe that any amount of “historical discrimination” makes it morally acceptable to believe that a particular race of people are inherently evil in their entirety and must be exterminated?
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@ BR and JT
Since I probably won’t respond to anything else from the white posters on here, I’m going to be brutal.
I don’t believe or trust anything you say. Fixing the system that you are apart of and benefit from every day would result in the annihilation of your race and no one is going to die for it.
Even if you marry and have black children it is very possible to still harbour racist beliefs and practice them unknowingly by the most detrimental practice whites exhibit.
Silence.
”
”
”
@ Truthbetold,
Thank you for your honesty. My honesty: I am not sure i wouldn’t feel the same way as you do if I were Black. Obviously, I am not Black, though, so it still hurts but do i deserve a privilege that you or others do not receive(not to be grouped)? No, i don’t. So i will just deal with it.
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@ Abagond
You’re welcome.
Something the book touches on is how whites will oppress each other as a way of not “self-destructing”. Yurugu, from the excerpts I’ve read, states that also. Neeley Fuller has explained so eloquently that whites MUST have a “target” to expel their rage or they will implode. Throughout history we’ve seen whites target, Jews, who are white, as well as ethnic whites such as Italians and The Irish and murder them as a way of expelling their rage.
I’ve always wondered why. Why harm your own kind? What is the purpose? You’re destroying your own race…so I don’t get it.
It’s because they’re missing that “link” so they become destructive and force someone, anyone….into oppression.
Underneath my rage lies sympathy. Not empathy…they are undeserving of that. But sympathy, because I truly do feel sorry for them.
You know what I’ve noticed?
Since I’m leaving medicine, I’m beginning to distance myself, mentally, from my patients. In doing that, I’ve learned some startling facts:
1. My rich white patients always get admitted under “VIP” status so they don’t have to wait for anything, not even for the RN’s to change shift. One white woman, whom I wanted to curse, actually told her RN to go to a restaurant and get her a meal which she desired! What nerve!!!!
2. No matter how hard you try to please white people who have money, you will fail because they are unhappy from within.
3. I had a poor Puerto Rican patient that hardly spoke any English and had no insurance. He came in under something we call Charity Care, which is welfare.
Even though the white DR. in the ER was rude, the patient was thankful, said “please” and told the Dr. “God Bless You” in his careful English. It broke my heart. Then I remembered the rich white woman who demanded her RN go out to fetch her a meal and I knew that leaving this crazy world of medicine was the right thing to do.
4. Medicine is an excellent way to practice racism/white supremacy. Making your brown patients wait for pain medications under the guise of being “busy” is a wonderful tactic of psychological warfare because now you, the white RN, controls their well-being.
5. Dr’s are perhaps the most racist people on earth, next to teachers. When I needed my physical, I simply went to the clinic across the street.
IN MY UNIFORM.
The Dr. treated me like a crack hooker. And was shocked to find out that I exercise, don’t eat fast foods or take substances and am in better shape than he is.
6. Whites will ask you “Where do you live?” Simple question, right? My boss was shocked out of her mind to learn we live in a clean, relatively crime-free well-kept, quiet-going farming community…with OTHER blacks. Beware of questions like these…
Lesson to all brown people:
Beware of the medical world. After all, The Tuskegee Experiments were conducted by physicians themselves.
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I dont think you can blame Truthbetold, or anyone who is black, for reaching a point where they just have had enough and need space from the source of the frutstation….space in their minds…and maybe reach a point where they dont trust white people…and feel the need to really keep them at a distance until they know their motives are not bad…and even then, be on the lookout for falsness….its just a constant weight to bear and sometimes its nice to not lift the weight…””
“”
@ BR,
I think you are on point with your post. I blame the people that have gotten us into this mess to begin with. Centuries of generations including todays and older generations of whites. Because of them, past, present Black women and men have had to suffer. And the future generations that are even unborn are already implicated by virtue of their yet-to-be skin color. This is disturbing as well. The yet-to-be born are not even physical but you can guarantee that they will suffer too. The yet-to-be whites will privilege from the system, the yet-to-be Blacks will be oppressed by it.
The not-even-born =/ and their parts are decided (in part) for them. SMH, that is how messed up this system is.
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@JT and B.R., the only reason I would read your comments is when it gets interesting, like when you got into it with TruthbeTold. B.R. you looked like a complete fool calling TruthbeTold a “black girl” and then you didn’t even really apologize or recognize your ignorance. JT, why would you care or feel hurt about ONE person who doesn’t like you on the internet that you do not even know. It is like you live in a void. I think of the ivory castle whenever you blah, blah, blah..
@TruthBeTold, I didn’t know this was a black blog, I came here because the writing was good and I like to learn about issues of race and justice. I don’t comment here that much anymore because the discussion is mostly the same old thing over and over again.
@Abagond, I still like to read your posts, very interesting and thought provoking. I like your writing style and the honesty that you express. Thanks.
take care, back to lurking.
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@ vanishingpoint,
Why I am responding to this – i don’t know. But one can only feel hurt when the person that is hurting them matters. Which is why i could care less about your slight (and i do care about Truthbetold’s). Because I don’t remember you. I don’t remember if we fought. I don’t remember if we disagreed. I don’t remember any one of your posts or your points of view. So read my posts or don’t. It doesnt affect me either way.
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Once again, someone thinks they have pshyco analyzed me , not caring at all for my explanation that I just made a simple mistake, thinking I was repeating the acuasation made to me, Vanishing point makes the same mistake, as Hannu, that I did, by saying I said it to Truthbetold , making a mistake , just like I did…..Its absolutly hilarious to see people try to call me out, thinking they really got me, as they make the same mistake…is anyone pshyco analysing them?
Enough…Im happy to be scrutiized for something I did that could incriminate me, but, scrutinise me and give me a chance to answer, but this bs for nothing ,seriously, this is petty
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JT, I hear you totaly….I totaly get what you are saying ….
I think people like you and me, have to really be doing it for ourselves, to the person we look in the mirror at.And, I think, that for sure there will be people we like, and respect, who may not want to accept us on a certain leval, and , we can still respect them , and notice there are 10 people with their arms open , also…and, lets face it, dealing with and recognising the racism is like playing football, everyone on the feild is going to get knocked down and get a little dirty and a little hurt
I never look on myself as a guilty liberal….I am not guilty, I see the wrong done , and dont see any excuse to keep the wrongs going. What Randy cant seem to get is that a lot of people are back peddling to the unbeleivable racism and discrimination that starts at slavery, passes Jim Crow, and arrives at good old boy hiring practices and housing rental, bank loan , genereral media stereotyping etc.People can be biased, bigoted, we have agreed to that, but, back peddling is not inventing and defining and acting on racism
Any good person who happens to have white skin, should be anxious to shed the “whiteness” they have been allowed to wrap themselves in, and face up to the wrongs done and we all move forward trying to make them right and join the human race..
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JT, I have a long comment in moderation , I just want to say, I agree with you 100 percent
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@Randy,
I see you leapt on this comment Randy – tut tut. I am not surprised that feel that your current line of questioning is not being responded to to your satisfaction and I can also hazard a guess as to why. This question is merely a ruse on your part but, what it does do is highlight your own true motivations which is, to prove that BP are more prejudiced, narrow minded and racist and that this in turn justifies the damaging and detrimental behaviours of SOME WP towards PoC. You refuse to take into account historical context and the day to day experiences of PoC which have contributed towards shaping and moulding their viewpoints in the here and now. Instead you play the ‘whos more racist than whom’ game and I imagine you rubbing your hands together with glee because ONE commenter has stipulated what her future intentions are and this makes you feel justified to make far reaching comparisons with this Stormfront mob. The same ‘group’ who from what I understand perpetuate negative stereotypes, stir up ill will and hatred and practice racism on a day to day basis.
I’m saying that people ought to treat one another equally. If bigotry is bad, it’s bad for everyone. If racism is bad, it’s bad for everyone.
I hope you practice what you preach here – if anyone deigned to go to Stormfront would they see this comment on there from you? I doubt it.
You’re still dodging.
If I had to give you a new moniker Randy it would be Artful Dodger. I’ve lost count of the amount of times that commenters have had to ask you the same question in different ways whilst you dance around the issue and respond with evasive statements until you collect yourself enough to respond giving your usual vague and undefined responses.
And, in case you think about asking me what my stance is, if you can’t see from response what my PoV is then it’s because you are woefully and wilfully blind to what is right in front of your eyes
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Demerera:
Not true. However, I did find TBT’s comment to be a wellspring of discussable ideas. To wit:
– Exposing double-standards in terms of tolerance (or lack thereof) of bigotry.
– Demonstrating the universality of certain themes (TBT’s desire for separatism neatly matching that of many white racialists).
– Seeing so-called Guilty White Liberal-types futilely contort themselves to show affection for persons who quite explicitly despise them and their entire race.
I don’t necessarily think that BP are more racist than white people, however I do suspect that many folks who consider themselves to be anti-racists, or who lament or otherwise inveigh against racism are perfectly comfortable with practicing it against others.
Kwamla, a big thinker, is my kind of chap. Thus I felt obliged to offer a contrarian viewpoint to his in order to spur discourse and reveal truths.
Demerera:
Those factors don’t make such opinions just. For those who are religious, might I remind you of the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You can’t decry bigotry while also expressing bigotry without being hypocritical.
Demerera:
Don’t you think that can be said of frequent commenters to this blog? And how about the deafening lack of denouncement by anyone for such expressed beliefs?
Demerera:
I’ve only visited that site a handful of times out of curiosity and have never posted. I have however engaged in debate on a few white advocacy sites where I have been even more unsparing with my criticism of their incongruous and fallacious thinking, practices, and beliefs. If you think I’m unpopular here…
Why do it? I’m in search of greater truths, and as such am interested in having discourse with people who hold beliefs quite different from mine. I’m willing to consider ideas well outside my own comfort zone, though not without as much critical analysis as I’m capable of mustering.
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I’m looking forward to the Olympic games. I love watching gymnastics, swimming, and track and field. Btw, did anyone hear/read about a Greek triple jumper being kicked out of the games for making a racist tweet about African immigrants in Greece?
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/greek-athlete-kicked-games-racist-tweet-153310592–oly.html
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Leigh, Im super looking forward to the Olympic games also, for the exact events you mentioned and basketball and soccar. The problem is, depending on the country you live in, you will only see people of that country on the TV. When I was in the States for the first half of one Olympics, I got to see the track stuff I love and basketball, and, not the soccar with Brazil that I love, in Brazil, I get to see lots of soccar, judo, and volley ball and little basketball unless Brazil plays….funny
Interesting article
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I think I’ll check out the Olympics too.
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@ Bulanik:
I’m thinking of you. Hope you’re okay. If you ever need someone to talk to, please remember I’m here. I sent abagond my new email addy in case you need it. Take care of yourself, hun. 🙂
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@ Bulanik:
Omigosh! I looked at my email just now and I saw you sent me a message. I had deleted your first message thinking it was spam. I’m SOOO sorry! Gahh! Please send me another message! I’ll reply to you as soon as I get home from work.
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I hope I wont seem out of place to express that Im feelig for both you all , Leigh and Bulanik, with your losses.The first two weeks can be really hard…for me it was…and you both are so much younger than me ( I did lose my father at 25, so I know how much it affected me back then)…which makes it very hard….Kwamla was so right that a lost loved one will be in your soul forever…
I dont know about you all, but, I get these instant flashes that I want to call my mom ( who recently passed) to tell her something, good or bad that happened, and for that instant , it is so real, even as my logic brain starts bombarding me , telling me ” no , your mom has passed…” but the feeling of wanting to call her in that instant is so real.
Im wishing a lot of strenght for you all in the coming months
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@Leigh
I’m looking forward to the Olympic games.
Me too. In fact, I am going to see an event on Saturday ‘whoop whoop’
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@Randy
– Exposing double-standards in terms of tolerance (or lack thereof) of bigotry.
I will simply answer by saying this:-
Take 2 people – one who has experienced bigotry for the first time in their life
The other, who, since they were young enough to remember, has been the victim of bigotry, etc and, to top it all, this has had a lasting legacy on family members past and present.
Who do you think will be the most tolerant?
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– Seeing so-called Guilty White Liberal-types futilely contort themselves to show affection for persons who quite explicitly despise them and their entire race.
“”””
@ Randy,
You would think that someone with as much experience contorting themselves around inconvenient truths as you have had at this board would know truth from fiction. But alas: you have no trouble stirring up more and more $h^t. Like how you repeatedly slandered me with the assertion that I was not sincere with my statements. You have maligned me multiple times because you don’t like that I am a white male that blames you and your types (that comes in millions) for the crap that preceded my entrance into this world. It is because so much hatred was sewn for the last 4-500 years, mostly by white males, that we now have a world that can’t interact with itself. And then you have the gall to preach to them about how they should act.
Right.
“””
– Kwamla, a big thinker, is my kind of chap.
“”
“”
I am sure he is so honored. *rollingeyes*
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Appeal for help
Appreciate I sound a bit vague here but, trying to track a Hip Hop song which samples the words ‘Soul Power’ in the hook. I think its by a female artist which should hopefully narrow it down somewhat – can anybody help?
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Speaking of the Olympics? remember that Greek triple jumper getting kicked off her team for her racist tweet regarding African immigrants and the West Nile viirus? Why she’s upset at the rash decision to kick her off.
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@ Bulanik:
Hi, hi! I sent you a message to your email addy. 🙂
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Demerera:
To answer your question, I would suppose that a long suffering victim is probably likely to be less tolerant than a person who isn’t.
But I wasn’t criticizing the intolerance demonstrated by several commenters, but rather the apparent selective acceptability of it, and the lack of response by all of the other nominal anti-racists, not even a “hey, I can tell you’ve been through a rough time, but if you don’t want others to be racist towards us then we can’t practice it ourselves.” Instead? [crickets chirping].
Either racism is immoral or it isn’t.
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I dont agree with our ascessment of the situation , Randy
Acepting someone’s point of veiw as best for them , even if it isnt your reality does not mean you cant understand the frustration and be more than willing to let a person do what they have to do..
And , I can understand that person’s point of veiw , but, for the life of me, I never understood white racism , and why a lot of whites hang on to it.
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…of course I meant “your ascessment of the situation, Randy”
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JT:
I didn’t question your veracity because of your philosophical beliefs per se, but rather because I had a hard time believing anyone could be as pitch-perfect GWL-ish as you professed.
However, I do recall meeting folks with a similar level of ardor in college. Have you ever talked with a young adult who just finished reading “Atlas Shrugged”? Good grief, some of those poor deluded whelps will even describe kindergarteners as “blood sucking parasites” with utter sincerity.
So allow me to retract my previous allegations and apologize.
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@ Randy,
Okay thank you for the apology. I do not consider my beliefs guilty white liberal although it seems that that is a widely shared idea that if one is conscientious about our social structure then one has to be a guilty white liberal. False conflation? In my opinion, yes.
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@Randy
But I wasn’t criticizing the intolerance demonstrated by several commenters, but rather the apparent selective acceptability of it, and the lack of response by all of the other nominal anti-racists, not even a “hey, I can tell you’ve been through a rough time, but if you don’t want others to be racist towards us then we can’t practice it ourselves.” Instead? [crickets chirping].
Either racism is immoral or it isn’t.
In terms of the comment that is being addressed here, the individual is not listing a long range of deep held racist beliefs or stereotypes to justify their decision. My understanding of the assertion is that this is the culmination of many experiences and incidents which have led the individual to come to a conclusion in terms of their own personal perception of WP and how they intend to ‘manage’ this in their life going forward.
You see the difference here? Most of the trolls who trawl this blog and comment, come because they want to assert their deep seated racist beliefs – they are unconcerned about the fact that often these have little or no credence or truth because as far as they are concerned, all the negative things they believe are the gospel.
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Demerera:
I do see the difference which you have described. However, this perspective should be considered “conditional racism” or “justifiable racism”, a vector value which incorporates a set of reasons that are evaluated to determine if such racism is morally acceptable or not.
I would be comfortable discussing that topic as such and would have no room to object. My criticism is that this perspective seems to be accepted explicitly and implicitly by people who nominally support “anti-racism”, which that belief system most clearly is not.
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No , Randy, its kind of like seeing Malcolm X on TV , on some of those old shows in the 60’s, and realising, you ( by, meaning you and me, us white people seeing Malcolm X on TV for the first time live) may not understand everything he is saying, but, you sure respect him , because he makes very compelling statements that ring true…for sure true for him…and, he maneuvered his position in his lifetime …and, he could make you really just listen and learn to respect another point of view out here…especialy one so lucid and well put
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Im sorry, that was a boring opening ceremony for the Olympics…When Rio opened the Pan Am games , it was much better than what I just saw
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B.R.,
I’ve listened to a number of Malcolm X lectures and found them compelling, not because he was a popular orator and I under a demagogic glamour, but because the message was logical, consistent, and thought provoking.
Reasonable people can have great differences in opinion.While neither I nor anyone else have a claim to absolute truth, we can nonetheless uncover and expunge illogical and inconsistent beliefs and practices. Identifying and ridding ourselves of fallacious ideas seems to me the surest way to advance towards greater truths.
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it’s sad that so many ignorant people exist in this world, and are surprised that black people live in england
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Well, Randy , great you saw some Malcolm X, I just think in some ways, he is saying the same thing we heard here, he doesnt trust white people for good reason…
I think Bulanik nailed the description of the Olympic opening cerimonies…Im hoping to see some great sports activities and great athletes like Bolt…even though I know I wont get great coverage down here..For example, if the Brazilian womens gymnastic team is competing, they only show them and not the other competiters, we see them in a huddle , crying or diapointed with their performance , but, not the other top performers…I think every county has biased coverage for their own team…Ok , I understand that, but, at least show the top performers in each of the sports also
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I have just returned from an Olympic event. I will say this, whilst it was great to be a ‘part’ of it and be able to take my children (which hopefully they will recall in years to come) the expense was astonishing and crippling and, the side events i.e. we attended an event at Victoria Park which was free entry but really expensive once inside for not very much, was disappointing.
I probably would have felt slightly differently if my event was in the Olympic park and it was a final such as sprinting though…
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1oM7LBbxE)
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Since Abag deleted my comments from Notes on how not to write about Native Americans for being “off topic” I’m reposting them here where nothing is off topic.
@ BR
“Milton Freidman and the “Chicago b0ys”, have had their policies forced on people in several dictatorships in South America during military dictatorships with not such great results for the people , mainly, Chile under Pinochet and Argentina under their military dictatorship”
One of the reasons the military overthrew Allende in the first place is that the socialist govt had ruined the economy. When the junta took over the inflation rate was over 150%. They eventually got it turned around AFTER adopting free market policies. Successive govt’s have continued their free market policies. Chile is currently ranked 3rd out of 29 countries in the Americas and has been a regional leader for over a decade. Before the 2008 recession, Chile was averaging annual GDP growth of 4.8%
But I wouldn’t call Argentina a beacon of free market policy. They partially liberalized their economy causing GDP to grow ~50%. But public spending grew by ~90% during the same time. Does increasing public spending by 90% sound like Friedman to you?
>>>
@ sam
I would have thought you’d learned your lesson after our discussion of cocaine cartels and Soviet crime. I know you’re slow to think so I’ll refresh your memory. Crime spiked in the post Soviet era due to political instability and slowly dropping ever since. However, the issue was economics not crime.
Estonia has the fastest growing economy of any former Soviet republic. They’re fast catching up with the EU-15, having grown GDP per capita from 34.8% of the EU-15 average in 1996 to 65% in 2007. The Financial Crisis of 2008 seriously affected the Estonian economy. However, long-term prospects for the Estonian economy remain among the most promising in Europe. In 2011, the real GDP growth in Estonia was 8,0%, and according to the projections made by the CEPII, the GDP per capita could rise to the level of Nordic economies within 10 years. According to the same projections, Estonia is on pace to become the most productive country in the EU after Luxembourg and among the top 5 most productive nations in the world.
As a side, I’ve noticed your tendency to smear other ethnics as criminals and prostitutes. I think you may be prejudiced.
>>>
@ Linda
“The Colonies were the reason the home European countries got rich. If anything, you got it backwards, the colonies were financially subsidizing the home country–the wealth went back to Europe.”
Economists such as Jacob Viner have studied this question and colonies cost the colonial powers more than they brought in. Most economists agree.
“Unfortunately, the native & slave populations didn’t just lay down and die properly,”
Actually, the standard of living improved for most people living under colonialism and declined after it ended. The reason is simple. Prior to colonialism most locals were subsistence farmers plagued by constant tribal warfare. But the colonial powers put an end to the tribal conflicts, built infrastucture and introduced cash crops. After colonialism, the tribal conflicts resumed and the locals were unable to maintain the infrastructure or manage large commercial farms.
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duck,
I knew you wouldn’t answer the question I asked you because it questions the morality of white people, and we know how hard that is for you to take.
As a side note I’m also not surprised that you would support colonialism.
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@ bro
I answered the question on the other thread. That was one of the comments abag deleted. If you don’t like it then take it up with him. Now, you owe me an apology for falsely accusing me of dodging the question.
As for why I didn’t repeat my answer on this thread. Your question was a logical fallacy known as a “loaded question” in which a question contains a controversial or unjustified assumption. It’s a rhetorical trick in which the question attempts to limit direct replies to those that serve the questioner’s agenda. The classic example would be, “Have you stopped beating your wife yet?”
As for colonialism, I’ve expressed neither support nor opposition. But since you’ve brought it up, I generally oppose it.
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@ Brothawolf
I did delete a comment of Duck’s that replied to you. He was using Mock Ebonics.
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Abagond,
Oh! I see.
duck,
I apologize for thinking you’ve dodged my question. Still, I wish I saw the answer. But I’m not going to pester you into rewriting it.
I will say this though…
If those with the mindset to question and condemn blacks for – anything of whatever degree including talking about whites in a less-than flattering manner, then it should be expected and understood that blacks do the same to whites.
If those with the mindset to see blacks as a collective especially if a few or some fail or commit acts of violence, then it should be expected and understood that blacks do the same with whites even though many do not blame white people but rather whiteness.
When I asked you why it wasn’t okay to talk about whites and their problems but it was okay to talk about blacks as the problem, I only wanted a direct answer, and you may have given me one. I dunno. But I didn’t care what kind of question it was. To me, it was an honest question when it comes to the overall images of whiteness and blackness in the mainstream.
My question is similar as if to ask why it’s cool to blame the victims of domestic violence as opposed to blaming the abuser.
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As a side note duck, you may have given me an answer, but your use of mock ebonics shows your wanton ignorance and lack of character. Forgive me for telling it like it is.
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About Olympics Opening Ceremony:
Did it disturb anyone that the part about Industrialization was modified to not reflect what truly happened.
They had black men and white men working together in the Factories, walking side by side etc. A more true showing would have Black Men in chains as that is where they were during this period.
I felt very disturbed that they omitted such a CRUCIAL piece of history.
I also found the fascination with children VERY disturbing. At one point it turned into some kind of horror show.
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@ duckduckgoofs
This….
“…Actually, the standard of living improved for most people living under colonialism and declined after it ended. The reason is simple. Prior to colonialism most locals were subsistence farmers plagued by constant tribal warfare. But the colonial powers put an end to the tribal conflicts, built infrastucture and introduced cash crops. After colonialism, the tribal conflicts resumed and the locals were unable to maintain the infrastructure or manage large commercial farms…”
And this statement:
“…As for colonialism, I’ve expressed neither support nor opposition. But since you’ve brought it up, I generally oppose it….”
…shows just how profoundly dumb and simple an ignoramus you are. But the worst part is your obvious delight in wallowing in this sea of ignorance you’ve consciously created for yourself!
You suffer from the same affliction as Randy. The need to constantly re-assert your own self-delusions about race on to people who neither asked nor are in need of knowing about them. But the simple question neither of you can ask yourselves is: Why I am bothering to do this?
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@ Randy
“…Reasonable people can have great differences in opinion.While neither I nor anyone else have a claim to absolute truth, we can nonetheless uncover and expunge illogical and inconsistent beliefs and practices. Identifying and ridding ourselves of fallacious ideas seems to me the surest way to advance towards greater truths…”
The ability to – “…expunge illogical and inconsistent beliefs and practices…” – is directly proportional to one’s own abilities and willingness to engage in personal self-reflection.
Unfortunately, neither your self or duckduckgoofs have shown much inclination towards any consistency in attempts to engage this practise. You both much rather prefer the practise of deflection as opposed to reflection . Which is evidenced by the over-abundance of self-indulgent comments you’ve both made on this blog.
Don’t you think its time to reflect more on what you are saying rather than what you believe others maybe saying?
I’m just saying…
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@ bro
Mock ebonics? Not so much. I grew up around ghetto blacks so that’s how I really talk. I just type white most of the time.
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@Duck
Actually, the standard of living improved for most people living under colonialism and declined after it ended. The reason is simple. Prior to colonialism most locals were subsistence farmers plagued by constant tribal warfare. But the colonial powers put an end to the tribal conflicts, built infrastucture and introduced cash crops. After colonialism, the tribal conflicts resumed and the locals were unable to maintain the infrastructure or manage large commercial farms.
Standard of living declined because colonialism was never meant to profit the colonized, but corporatists. Part of what made colonialism so crippling was the fact that there was so little infrastructure and modernization. Rails and seaports existed primarily to transfer goods out of the colonized countries. Cash Crops not only displace edible foodstuffs that would be more useful for African inhabitants, very little of that cash falls into African hands. To this day large commercial farms and agriculture dominate the economy, while corporatists and banks shift the balance of trade so as to inhibit industrialization of African countries.
Also, tribal conflict is an amusing choose of words. I remember when Europe was ravaged by tribal conflict twice, and were so generous as to share their tribal feuds with the rest of the World.
Seriously, war is war. Calling it “tribal conflict” is just stupid, as if any war could exist without tribalism.
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@wilson
I felt very disturbed that they omitted such a CRUCIAL piece of history.
The whole opening ceremony presented a harmonious multicultural melting pot throughout – something that if it was put in context, would have had many wrinkling their brow, particularly those Windrush migrants …..
Much was made of the boy and girl finding each other too – not sure what that was about at all i.e. what relevance to the games????
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Speaking as a Black person commenting from England…
I watched the whole Olympics Opening Ceremony on TV. And from my own and other accounts from people who attended I got the sense you really had to be there to appreciate its atmosphere and magnificence. But of course this was a corporate, global and big business affair. Sadly not the supposedly inclusive equality of competing ethos the Olympics is said to represent. But this is the best (currently) we can do when staging global events.
I heard comments about the Opening Ceremony being described by a conservative MP as left wing multicultural nonsense!
For me though it reflected an idealised, though, positive sense of Britishness thats never really been seen before. One that has yet to realised but one that potentially could. Yes it had its boring and indecipherable moments but also original ones like the James Bond and the parachuting down from a helicopter. Even the music managed to be inclusive along with the representations of the characters used throughout to tell the stories.
There are a lot of negative criticisms I could make of the whole spectacle. And indeed some people commentating have already made them. But overall I would have to say this was a worth attempt at honestly portraying an idea of Britishness. Cynically, it just will not be followed through with unless the whole of British society is radically overhauled. Starting with this absurd need to pay homage to a monarch. The symbolism and establishment of which has nothing whatsoever to do with Olympic ethos.
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Perhaps someone can explain this to me:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS1AVpYLzAE)
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@Kwamla
But of course this was a corporate, global and big business affair.
Exactly. When you go to an event you will see just how much what you say here comes through. It could mar the experience for those who arent truly into sports – fortunately for me, I see it ‘on balance’ and it did not detract from being part of the Olympic experience and enabling my children to be part of this too.
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@ D.
I don’t know about all the colonies. But at least with respect to the British the workers were free. I know this because one of Britain’s major policies was to end slavery in every territory under its control. African chiefs actually protested the abolition of slavery because their main source of income was raiding neighboring tribes and selling the prisoners to Arabs.
Since the workers were free they were also paid. No one takes a job unless they’re paid more than what they can make somewhere else. In this case, they could earn enough money working on commercial farms to buy more than they could grow on subsistence farms. I don’t know what percentage went to the workers vs the company. And it doesn’t really matter. If workers think they can do better somewhere else then they should quit and go do it.
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@ Duck
This is a fallacy for several reasons.
The first reason, and the more obvious, is that this reasoning pretends that, on the colonial side, the (colonizing) state is the only actor. This clean “balance sheet of colonialism” (the expression is from Walter Rodney) purposely ignores the fact that the main benefactors of colonialism were private actors from the colonizing nation: monopolistic groups such as the East India Company in Asia or the CFAO in West Africa, European settlers, traders and farmers, etc… Their HUGE benefits are not taken in account by the likes of Friedman and Viner.
The second reason is that Viner & co° consider every penny invested in the colonies as some contribution from the colonial state. Actually most of those investments where actually supported either by local taxes (forcedly) levied upon indigenous populations or by bank loans whose interests some states were still paying decades after the independences.
The third reason is that this line of reasoning ignores hard-to-quantify benefits from colonialism: access to land and resources, captive markets, the ability to arbitrary and unilaterally set the terms of exchange, etc…
But most importantly, the notion that the European nations did not benefit from colonialism fly in the face of common sense. So it’s pure coincidence if the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolutions coincided with the main phases of colonial expansion of Western Europe??
Yeah, sure…
Also notice how the human cost of colonialism is always absent of those cold calculations. How convenient…
Is that so?
Just curious. What exactly do you know of the conditions of life in, say, pre-colonial Africa and colonial Africa? What are your sources?
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@ Dahoman X So it’s pure coincidence if the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolutions coincided with the main phases of colonial expansion of Western Europe??
The Renaissance began in Italy in the 14th Century. Italy hasn’t had a colony since Roman times. And at that time no one else had a colony either.
The Renaissance gave way to the Scientific Revolution which was responsible for the technical innovation that made the Industrial Revolution possible. Prior to the scientific revolution work was very labor intensive depending mostly on manpower and horses. The scientific revolution led to mechanization and the use of the water wheel. As mechanization increased more and more people left the farms to work in the factories and mechanization improved. Another key factor is that the law began to recognize contracts and property rights.
“Just curious. What exactly do you know of the conditions of life in, say, pre-colonial Africa and colonial Africa? What are your sources?”
Thanks for asking. I usually google as questions arise and look for a paper from an economist. This is one of the sources I’ve used in the past. It’s an online book that I’ve bookmarked.
Colonialism in Africa, 1870-1960: The Economics of colonialism
By Peter Duignan, Lewis H. Gann
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Do I have to read the whole book? Maybe you can provide some excerpts to support your claims regarding the improvement of the conditions of life under colonial rule.
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Kwamla,
Let’s keep it simple: do you believe that racism (i.e. defined for this question as being unequal esteem and treatment based up race) acceptable, unacceptable, or conditionally acceptable?
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@ Someguy
She’s “in the spirit.”
She saw something that troubled her.
Or…..
She’s crazy.
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Dahoman X
Do I have to read the whole book? Maybe you can provide some excerpts to support your claims regarding the improvement of the conditions of life under colonial rule.
Whilst there is some truth to this comment:- I don’t know about all the colonies. But at least with respect to the British the workers were free. I know this because one of Britain’s major policies was to end slavery in every territory under its control.
Though they had already been enslaved for many many years. What is important to note also is the ‘price’ of freedom…
The Slavery Abolition Act passed in 1833 abolished slavery in the British Empire on 1 August 1834 …..Under the Act, slaves were granted full emancipation after a period of 4 to 6 years of “apprenticeship” abolition. As of August 1834, all slaves in the British Empire were emancipated, but still indentured to their former owners in an apprenticeship system which was finally abolished in 1838. The apprenticeship system was a system implied to force the ex-slaves to return to the plantation. They were to give 40½ hours free labour and any time after that they were to be paid for their work”
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@ Dohoman X “Maybe you can provide some excerpts to support your claims regarding the improvement of the conditions of life under colonial rule.
http://goo.gl/VRgFa
Colonialism in Africa, 1870-1960: The Economics of colonialism. Page 680.
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@ Demerera
Slavery had always been illegal in Britain. And Britain had already taken steps to end slavery in its overseas prior to the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833. Namely, the Slave Trade Act of 1807, established the Royal Navy’s West Africa Squadron. The squadron’s task was to suppress the Atlantic slave trade by patrolling the coast of West Africa.
Slavery existed in many areas before Britain had any influence over them. It existed among the indigenous population and as well as foreign traders. In fact, Britain was actually overstepping its authority by using its navy to stop slavery in territories that weren’t even under it’s control.
The thing that aggravates me is not the legitimate criticisms. It’s when people are so determined to stick it to someone else that they make false accusations as an excuse to hate them.
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Slavery existed in many areas before Britain had any influence over them
Agreed, though the British were no strangers to colonialism…
“Although England lagged behind other European powers in establishing overseas colonies, it had been engaged during the 16th century in the settlement of Ireland, drawing on precedents dating back to the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. Several people who helped establish the Plantations of Ireland also played a part in the early colonisation of North America, particularly a group known as the West Country men.”
It existed among the indigenous population and as well as foreign traders.
Are you talking about the Caribbean here?
The thing that aggravates me is not the legitimate criticisms. It’s when people are so determined to stick it to someone else that they make false accusations as an excuse to hate them.
!
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Nice try. But if you actually had read the whole book, you would know it mostly concerns the european-owned productions geared toward exportation, not the average colonized peasant.
Your excerpt also ignores the negative consequences of the imposition of new crops by the colonial power:
http://www.articlesbase.com/politics-articles/the-ecological-and-political-impact-of-colonialism-in-the-third-world-during-the-nineteenth-and-twentieth-centuries-306767.html
Now, out of curiosity, what were the actual population and life expectancy prior to colonization, already?
I was not aware that such data were available for the whole continent.
My bad.
But given the context, I think it was clear I was not talking about the artistic & cultural movement but instead about the economic improvement subsequent to the import of dozen of thousands of tons of gold and silver from the Americas to Europe after 1492.
Would you say that this too impoverished the European states and benefitted the Native Americans?
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Well, though its a different kind of ‘First Lady’ there was the time that Maggie Thatcher had this happen to her…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Lmwu7usVU)
🙂 – Michelle though is warm and ‘human’ in a way that other first ladies of the past seem to lack.
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“duckduckgoofs@
“Unfortunately, the native & slave populations didn’t just lay down and die properly,”
Actually, the standard of living improved for most people living under colonialism and declined after it ended. The reason is simple. Prior to colonialism most locals were subsistence farmers plagued by constant tribal warfare. But the colonial powers put an end to the tribal conflicts, built infrastucture and introduced cash crops. After colonialism, the tribal conflicts resumed and the locals were unable to maintain the infrastructure or manage large commercial farms.”
Linda says,
You are confusing the issue, your above post is describing
Imperialism (you referred to it as “outsourcing”) not true Colonialism (which displaced, immersed, or destroyed the native indigineous populaton and their way of life)
Under Imperialism, the occupying European force took possession of power (backed by a strong military force) but there are no mass displacement of the local indigineous population.
Many of these countries occupied under Imperialism were old and already had their own class and educational systems, economy, architecture and infrastructure that allowed them to trade on a local or regional level for hundreds of years.
They all had agricultural-based economies (just like Europe until the Industrial revolution). Then the European occupiers (Like France, England, Germany) proceeded to occupy these foreign nations/regions and bleed them dry of their natural resources and turn their world upside down.
the Europeans like to believe they Improved infrastructure and economy for these occupied Nations but what they did under Imperialism was Change the regional economic and infastructure by bringing in their own European policies to set up trade and taxation.
They imported their goods into the occupied region, taxed the be-jesus out of the local populaton, and then exported the raw materials from the occupied region to the European markets–and once again, the majority of the money did not stay local, it went home to Europe.
The improvemnent of the local transportation systems (road, railways, etc) to get stuff in and out of the region was self-serving at the expense of the local indigineous population.
Yes, new agricultural and mining industries were created (along with forced labour) but this disrupted indigineous society’s way of life.
While the Imperialist were busy expanding their “free markets”, at the same time, they moved geographic boundaries, interrupted established ethnic/cultural identities and practices, meddled in the indigineous populations government, politics, religion, and local microeconomics.
The good thing about Imperialism is that it forced different ethnic groups to come together and form a Nationalist movement against the European occupiers.
Pick any country that suffered under Imperialism in Africa, Asia, or South Pacific and you’ll find similar patterns of European behavior.
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@SW6
Obama’s whole campaign was “let me charm you” it seems the majority of black U.S. citizens and non-black U.S. citizens fell for it.
Do you think that perhaps people wanted almost to be cosseted by the President and that this was in part, the allure? Are you saying that Obama is a smooth talker who talks the talk etc…
Apologies – I dont know much about American politics
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Duckgoofs, thanks for answering me about the Freidman concepts in South America. Im more an expert on Brazil, but, the docu I was referencing said just the opisite about Argentina…they said they had the Freidman people in place during the dictatorship and you have to understand , these military dictatorships were there to keep in place policies of the IMF , so, that had to have as much to do with inflation . The leaders after Menen, cursed the fact that they followed the directions they were told by the neo liberals and it failed miserably.
This docu also said that it was the poor people in Chile who sufferred under the Freidman policies, you know that a country can make their economy look good when only the elite are getting rich and everyone else is suffering…
But, this docu might be wrong and you might be right, or , you might be wrong..it just goes to show that people can look at something and come up with totaly differant impresions about what is happening….
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I can chalk up the boring Olympic ceremonies to a couple of things :
The pacing was slow and weghty….
and, the most important thing, if you are looking to demonstrate what is great about a country, old rock and roll is a bad choice. Unfortunatly, all the things I talk about how time will demonstrate what has depth and what doesnt , was on display.Not that all the songs were bad, but, it really was apherant that the songs on display werent that moving or had enough depth to rise to the occaison…
I loved the Bond stuff and was ready to let the ceremonies sweep me off my feet. But, it just got bogged down
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3)
“duckduckgoofs@
After colonialism, the tribal conflicts resumed and the locals were unable to maintain the infrastructure or manage large commercial farms”
Linda says,
This phenomenon of civil war or regional fighting in order to re-establish dominance based on class, religion, or strong Ethnic clan military dominance is not exclusive to Africa or Asia.
and to the majority of the fighting is to re-draw and re-establish geographic boundaries based on Ethnic groups (what you called ‘tribes’) that existed before foreign invasion.
When people make statements like yours, they fail to remember that the tribes in Europe also underwent the same thing after foreign occupation withdrawal or Regime change—this is why Europe has had so many wars–to name a few recent ones in last 100 years
Example
1) World War One – in essense, the breakup of Austro-Hungarian Empire and reformation into smaller countries based on Ethnicity (Austria, Czech, Slovak, Hungary, Poland, etc)
2) World War Two – German occupaton of most of Europe and America and Russia re-drawing boundary lines after the war and becoming the new dominant leaders in world politics and financial markets.
3) Breakup of Yugoslavia- war in Bosnia and Herzegovina, each country reforming itself based on ethnic boundaries prior World War 2
So, just like in Africa, after these ‘tribal’ wars in Europe and Ethnic boundaries were re-established, these newly reunified European tribes had to rebuild their economies and infrastructure and it didn’t happen overnight.
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@SW6
Cosseted is a super pejorative in this context and I wouldn’t use that word.
Point taken. I more meant in the sense that they wanted to be ‘protected’ almost from all the negativity and propaganda associated with presidents before and were happy to embrace Obama as this had been exposed. There was much revealation about Obama and speculation was rife beforehand as to his religious leanings, his upbringing etc so, the voters probably kinda felt they knew what they were getting. With Clinton and co, certainly I dont recall as much negativity about them leading up to them winning the elections.
One further thing (that should be obvious, I don’t think it’s a fancy theory at all):
it was always an achilles heal of the U.S. black population that one day they could be conned by a political party who runs a black candidate for president. Conned in the sense that our U.S. black brothers and sisters might make the error of romanticizing the skin colour and historical achievement of a black president instead of evaluating whether the individual will actually serve public interests.
I must confess then that I too am guilty of this. Although I am jaded beyond belief about British polititians, I must admit that I probably looked at Obama as a person/a man, more than his political manifesto. He seemed decent and genuine and I think this is what I got more caught up with than anything.
It sounds like the Dream is turning into a living nightmare for some though. ….
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@ SW6
May I say something?
Obama’s skin was carefully used to “reel” us in. Here’s my frame of thought. No politician want’s the best for this country. Obama works for Wall Street or rather The House of Rothschild.
Rothschild which serves Zionists, gives orders to Ben Bernake, Bernake then orders Obama like a puppet to dance and somersault around for us. Was I happy to see us in the white house if not for anything else but the joy of what we could accomplish?
Yes.
It was a historical moment. Was I infatuated?
No.
Was I taken?
No.
Obama proved that he doesn’t have our best interest in mind. Unemployment has destroyed the black community, jobs are purposefully TAKEN away under the guise of being “outsourced” and crime and police brutality are leading us into a police country.
After watching and carefully listening to his dancing and maneuvering in the first 2 years of his presidency, it was obvious he took over from his cousin, George Bush.
But that’s how they work, the elite I mean. It must be kept all within the bloodline.
By the way…our votes mean naught. Presidents are chosen by the Rothschilds. We do not elect them. We have no power to elect presidents. That is all an illusion.
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Is Truthbetold like waking up or something?
– Boris Mouravieff, Gnosis
————————————————————————————————
“In general, the reaction of those around towards someone who begins to search for the Way is negative. This negative attitude is the result of the action of the General Law, which, as we know, tends to keep man in his place. Not being able to do this directly by the action of Illusion, the General Law, when it loses its dominion over the man who ‘moves’, acts indirectly by the mediation of those around him.
It is a classic situation. From his side, after having passed through moral bankruptcy, he who seeks the Way becomes different from men who continue to live within the limits permitted by the General Law, and thus take mirages for reality. Due to this, he will feel himself more and more isolated.[…] The ‘World’ will be hostile to him, because its own purposes are different; it is not in his interest to provoke this tendency, and even less to keep it alive. The day will come – if he remains in the same milieu – where, apart from rare exceptions he will be openly or secretly hated. ”
————————————————————————————————
– Richard M. Dolan
————————————————————————————————
“”From a historical point of view, the only reality is that of conspiracy. Secrecy, wealth and independence add up to power. …Deception is the key element of warfare, (the tool of the power elites), and when winning is all that matters, the conventional morality held by ordinary people becomes an impediment. Secrecy stems from a pervasive and fundamental element of life in our world, that those who are at the top of the heap will always take whatever steps are necessary to maintain the status quo. […]
The very label ‘conspiracy’ serves as an automatic dismissal, as though no one ever acts in secret. Let us bring some perspective and common sense to this issue. The United States comprises large organizations – corporations, bureaucracies, ‘interest groups,’ and the like – which are conspiratorial by nature. That is, they are hierarchical, their important decisions are made in secret by a few key decision-makers, and they are not above lying about their activities. Such is the nature of organizational behavior. ‘Conspiracy,’ in this key sense, is a way of life around the globe.”
————————————————————————————————
Finally,
– John Baines
———————————————————————————————–
“People are always infused with all kinds of fantastic ideas about themselves, the world, people, love, idealism, society, etc. Led by his eagerness to evade a disagreeable reality, man gives free rein to his imagination and is inclined to believe the first agreeable lie he encounters along the way. The individual projects his personal illusions onto a cold and immutable reality, and thus deceiving himself, he endeavors to contemplate reality through rose-colored glasses. “Disillusion” is a painful process and can be prolonged, depending on how much time the individual takes to realize he is living artificially and that this condition is a product of his internal dreams. Great courage is required to face reality and to destroy the mirage of a pleasant dream.”
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duck
You said, “Mock ebonics? Not so much. I grew up around ghetto blacks so that’s how I really talk. I just type white most of the time.”
So, why is it that you use it usually whenever you’re making a snide remark? You may have made one in the comment Abagond deleted in order to belittle my comment to affirm your delusion that black people are stupid and ignorant. Only you know for sure. If it is so, then you defending it makes it much worse.
I won’t even bother with the “typing white” comment.
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Duck’s pretense of being objective is about to burst at the seams. Let loose, Duck, let loose!
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@ Wilson
I studied briefly the Rothschild’s and Rockefeller’s in college and got side tracked by finals and boys. I began to make my way back to the Rockefeller’s when 9/11 happened and Bush was reading My Pet Goat.
Upside down! All symbolic.
Then my interest sparked again. I delved into the Skull and Bones and spoke to another blogger who has studied them for years. It was he that gave me material on :
1. Hand gestures
2. Logos, like BP, Target and McDonalds and too many to list
3. Celebrities
I was stunned to learn this was a global conspiracy. Stunned to learn my favourite artists were into this diabolical practice, like Prince. Stunned to learn that all this time we’ve been living in a dream world waiting to be slaughtered.
I know others on here will think me mad, but evil does exist. My friend sent me a clip of Madonna at the superbowl and I nearly fell over. Since I don’t watch TV, I’m left out of the loop. But my interest has sparked once again…
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@ Dahoman
That was a good read. It’s a shame to think how much more we could have progressed as a species if Colonized countries were given the opportunity to develop naturally.
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@ SW6
Sorry, love…it’s true.
So are Jamie Fox, Beyonce, Jay-z, multiple rappers, Micheal Jackson, Will and Jada Smith and their little girl and many many more black celebrities.
I’m sad that they sold out! You know what’s scary? I used to sing this Umbrella song by Rihanna:
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21PthYQUztg )
But when he, the blogger, broke it down for me…I nearly flipped!
go figure.
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I’ve also heard things about certain entertainers, such as Jay-Z, Michael Jackson and Lady Gaga, having achieved a high level of fame and fortune through ties with a very powerful group called “the Illuminati”. And that these entertainers sometime acknowledge their group affiliation in specific ways, such as allowing only one of their eyes to show, or by featuring butterfly symbols / designs in their videos or on their clothing.
I don’t know what to make of any of this, but, and in my opinion, some of the “entertainers” mentioned have achieved great wealth and fame by using lots of gimmicks, props and fashion trends, but very little talent. It leaves me wondering if maybe there is something to this Illuminati conspiracy theory after all….
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@ Fiamma
The Illuminati is a secret society within a secret society. They have approx. 300 “top” members called 33rd degree. It’s been awhile since I delved into them but my passions are awakened once again.
After watching the twin towers fall into itself and Bush was reading My Pet Goat, which is a symbol of Satan and freemasonry, I said no way! This was planned.
I’ll be exploring this soon…
Since I don’t watch TV, I have a lot of catching up to do with these stars in Hollyweird.
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To Bulanik:
My father passed away at 05.15 (GMT) of a massive heart attack.
My condolences.
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TruthBeTold:
Very interesting!
It’s been said that Freemasons rule the world. It’s not too far-fetched of an idea, if you ask me.
And regarding the 9/11, I’m too the point where I don’t put anything past the US government. I do believe that Dubya knew well ahead of time that of these terrorist strikes and may have simply allowed them to happen. The plane which heroic passengers were said to have purposely caused to crash into a field in Pennsylvania? IIRC, that plane was headed for the White House. I believe it was trailed by a US fighter jets until the point it was over that field where it was then purposely taken down by missiles from the jets (they usually do this type of thing only when planes are flying over large bodies of water so as to decrease the potential for third party lose of life / property damage, but in this case there was no choice but to do it over an open field). The lives of the passengers on that plane were sacrificed in order to save the White House from being struck by that plane.
TruthBeTold, I look forward to reading your blog article on this and related topics.
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I think we should have the same exact stance when White bigots post here:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASU-5yzwZMs)
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LftZPDeT194)
the grace and beauty of Brazilian samba is very well represented here. The bass player on the recorded music is the incredible samba bass innovator, Luizao Maia
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@ Peanut,
He ignores me too. But i think for different reasons. =/
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What? Everybody’s ignoring each other? 😉
Anyway, party people especially Bulanik, have a great day! 😀
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@ Bulanik,
LOL. True. Abagond is not running a daycare but a blog! But still i wish he would respond to my activism thread idea – i think many ideas posted here need to enter the public sphere (even more). If we are spread a part physically we have to unite electronically. =)
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Thats a nice video B.R
No one who posts on this blog gets ignored. There are too many people watching! They may not always be responded to but they are never unnoticed. At least thats my view..
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Well you should know this well Bulanik. You’re certainly guilty of leaving many lengthy detailed comments for people to peruse! You’re definitely feeding the lurkers!
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For every person who comments about 100 lurk. Sometime I reply to commenters, particularly the trollish ones, more for the sake of lurkers than anyone else.
@ Peanut, JT, etc:
I do need to catch up on my email big-time. I am way behind. My apologies.
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Abagond, you should make a “graveyard” post with a list of names of those fools unfortunate enough to be on the wrong end of the BAN HAMMER BAH-BOOOOM!
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Thanks, Kwamla….I love that aspect of Brazilian culture so much
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3 black players on one team – wow!!!!
(http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/west-bromwich-albion-fc/west-bromwich-albion-fc-news/2012/08/01/west-brom-to-honour-cyrille-regis-brendon-batson-and-laurie-cunningham-with-three-degrees-statue-97319-31516970/?fb_ref=.UBlUpA6hGWI.like&fb_source=home_multiline)
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/01/chavis-carter-shot-jonesboro-police_n_1730997.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
Police murder?
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@ Bulanik
That shouldn’t be surprising to anyone who has watched any amount of American Television. U.S. T.V. stations cater to the White American Male. If that isn’t your race/nationality/gender combo, then they basically say F*CK YOU because ratings are LIFE.
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HAHAHA! Gotta love those Chinese!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdNGyJXf0Xk)
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@ Abagond
I think it would be cool if you did a post on all these DNA Ancestry tests that so many companies offer.
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Random, but does anybody else mentally assign random voices to the owner and/or frequent commenters to this blog? I noticed a while ago that I tend to give people voices if I notice them comment several times. The weird thing is, I don’t even do it on purpose. Another strange thing about these voices (“these voices” sounds a bit creepy) is that they are not stereotypical ie. based off of the personalities of the commenter either (minus a few. Sorry!). I don’t even give accents where they would seem appropriate.
So yea, anybody else give soundless comments voices?
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Voices? No.
Imagined faces & physical features? Yes.
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@Matari
That’s interesting. Unless I see a gravatar avi, the physical characteristics of frequent commenters stays completely blank in my mind
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Yes, I also imagine physical features, but, not voices, that is interesting , Cynic….
About the olympics, they didnt show that cerimony in Brazil either…
I dont know about you all, but as an Amerian, I remember the days when a black person wasnt suposed to be able to play quarterback, as well as there were sports where black people competing was rare
Its so great to see black Americans competing in sports , that they used to be asumed as not good enough or something, on an Olympic leval and succeeding , like Gabbe in gymnastics and the swimmer who took silver in the 50 meter swim and two male gymnasts on the team…congradulations to them…..I love seeing stereotypes broken
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@The Cynic
Nope. I don’t assign voices.
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Lol so I see I’m the weirdo on this blog haha
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@ The Cynic
I’ve pictured Cookie Monster smashing away at a keyboard with cookie crumbs flying every which way whenever I saw Doug’s username(especially during that meltdown). Does that count? Same with Bliff etc etc, they just all end up looking the same in my head simply because the vomit up the same lame crap.
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Lol. I assign voices sometime…Im more likely to imagine personality chararacterisitcs such as ‘high-strung’, arrogant, funny, playful ect based on the ‘tone’ of frequent commenters…sometimes I assign voices too
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I must say, I have never imagined the facial characteristics/skin-tone of commentors unless it has been referencedor have a pic. If someone comes on commenting like no_slappz(banned), I’ll assume they are white but that’s about it. I don’t assume someone is ugly/pretty ect based on comments. I DO, however, assign a sex based on comments, and I’m almost always right.
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LOLWUT?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2183284/Gabby-Douglas-NBC-forced-apologise-ad-features-monkey-doing-gymnastics-right-AFTER-victory.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
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Gabby’s Olympic Routines:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqj4kGXTQW8)
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LOL Peanut you always crack me up.
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@ Peanut
Excellent suggestion. I will have it up Monday.
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@Bulanik
LOL that’s funny, I always assumed/knew you were a black female, presumably of recent African descent.
Was it a new commenter that thought you were white? I find that new/driveby commenters are more likely to be wrong about these things.
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Another horrific mass shooting going down again in the USA, how many more will it take to understand the sickness?
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To all the Jamaicans or those of Jamaican descent(?), HAPPY 50TH INDEPENDENCE DAY. I think I’ll treat myself to some jerk chicken, curried goat, patties. stew bean and rice!
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@Bulanik:
I don’t drink and am not fond of ginger per se. However I will have some orange juice or juice!
I found out via my family reunion that some of my African Ancestor hailed from Guinea Bissau, once a part of the Mali empire!
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Don’t wake me up – Chris Brown
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOowQeKyNkQ)
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@ Herneith
Ever had Ting?
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@truth:
Yes, and I especially love the grapefruit one! It’s a good thing they have a lot of West Indian restaurants and grocery stores here(Toronto)!
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@Truth be told: Sister Truth I had Ting in Jamaica. It was my favorite beverage. I wonder can I find it here stateside?
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These fools at Google put a Black man running on a watermelon track on their front page!!
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@Some Guy: LOl That’s what I thought too. Lol!!
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@ The Cynic:
I wonder what everyone sounds like. 🙂
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Abagond: Google is throwing shade at us. Check out the Google Doodle I looks like a black man running on a watermelon. Talk about subliminal messages. Do my eyes deceive me?
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Abagond: Google is throwing shade at us. Check out the Google doodle today . It looks like a black man running on a watermelon.
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SomeGuy writes:
“These fools at Google put a Black man running on a watermelon track on their front page!!”
– – –
No one would intentionally do such a thing. It’s mere happenstance.
And besides all that, you colored folk know good and well that watermelons aren’t rectangular! 😀
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@ Fiamma
Haha! Good one. 🙂
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@Fiamma: Re: Goggle doodle. I’m going to chill. That was funny what you said. Lol.
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SomeGuy,
You have a good eye; I saw that doodle earlier and felt a little uneasy about it but just couldn’t put my finger on why. It is pretty blatant, though…the watermelon ‘racetrack’ even has ‘seeds’ here and there for proper effect.
– – –
Mary,
Yes, all we have to do now is wait for Google to issue a bogus explanation, a la NBC, about how the watermelon racetrack wasn’t “intentional”. As a matter of fact, that childish insult is probably Google’s way of giving Black folk the finger for complaining about NBC’s monkey-gymnast-commercial response to Gabby Douglas taking the Gold.
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@ Fiamma
That’s actually what made me think that this was no accident. If it didn’t have those seeds, I wouldn’t have thought anything of it. But what else could those dark spots be? To me, this seems to be the work of some disgruntled employee, who thought he could make some sort of stupid joke at Black people’s expense.
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@ SomeGuy
I agree, it comes down to those spots. Because otherwise it is pretty true to life.
It could well have been based on a picture like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/06/sports/olympics/usain-bolt-of-jamaica-defends-gold-in-100-meters.html?_r=1
The same colours, even down to the track suits.
The Google doodle:
http://www.trbimg.com/img-5021561c/turbine/la-na-nn-london-2012-hurdles-20120807-001/600
The only clear difference, the only thing that is not innocent, are the spots. No Olympic track would have those. They were added for some reason.
Watermelon:
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@Leigh
I wonder what everyone sounds like
What do you think I sound like? 🙂
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^^ Alex Kingston
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^^^^ lol
If I am amongst my mates, my ‘aitches’ drop – thats the ‘venacular’ for where I grew up.
In the main, whilst my vowels are certainly not as ‘clipped’ as hers, its probably not that disimilar when I speak in a professional capacity
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@ Abagond
Did you see how everyone fought for Ali Raisman’s bronze medal in women’s gymnastics? It was quite a spectacle with Bela Karoyli giving instructions on how to file a complaint.
You know what?
I had a vision the other night about us. Black folks, I mean. The secrets will be revealed soon as to who and WHAT we are.
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Abagond, are you going to write an article about the Sikh temple shooting in Wisconsin?
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@Bulanik
I need a break from the world of language….is that part of the grieving process?
I guess that grieving can take many different forms and manifests itself in various ways depending on the person. Listen to your body, heart and mind at this time would be my recommendation.
Thinking of you x
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@ Demerera:
I’d say actress Gugu Mbatha- Raw. 🙂
@ Bulanik:
Yes, I am. 🙂 It’s really quite interesting. The non-Canadians I’ve come across expect me to say “eh” after a sentence or say “aboot” for about. On occasion, I will admit I say, “eh”. 😀
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What Demerera said. I’m thinking of you, too, sweetie. 🙂
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@ Demerera
I imagine you sounding like Freema Agyeman.
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I don’t think I imagine voices when I read these posts. Faces, yes, but not voices.
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@ Lil Tejo
I will write about the Sikh temple shooting in some form – probably in a few days when more is known and I am less sickened by it.
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@ Truth
I missed that one.
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@Leigh
I’d say actress Gugu Mbatha- Raw
@Abagond
I imagine you sounding like Freema Agyeman
Its hard for me to be objective I guess but yes, both very similar – I can’t believe how close you guys both are in your own way lol. 🙂
Now, dare I ask – is it a ‘nice’ sounding accent? Is it what you guys would associate with being ‘typically british?’
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@Bulanik
Gugu and Freema have quite different accents…
It looks like I am saying their accents are similar. That’s not what I meant. I meant they are similar to how I ‘can’ sound. I would say my accent is a mixture of both depending on who I am with etc.
I dont think they are that far removed from each other in that I think Gugu could ‘slum’ it some and sound like Freema and Freema could probably sound slightly more refined like Gugu.
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@ Demerera
Any way that Freema talks is automatically good in my book!
I have never been to Britain so most of what I know about British accents comes from what appears on American screens: James Bond, “Doctor Who”, “EastEnders”, film adaptations of Jane Austen novels, Patrick Stewart, Hugh Grant, Tony Blair, Margaret Thatcher, the Queen, Princess Diana, Downtown Julie Brown, Mick Jagger, the Beatles, that woman on “Frasier” (Jane Leeves), etc.
The way I imagine London is a continuum where the richest top 10% sounds like Patrick Stewart:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keZlextkcDI)
the middle 70% something like Freema:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPDJTRa_mC4)
and the bottom 20% like the EastEnders (which is hard for me to understand if they talk too fast – it is not just the accent but the unexpected turns of phrases too):
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9e6EpLQzJs)
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@Abagond & Bulanik
The way I imagine London is a continuum where the richest top 10% sounds like Patrick Stewart
Probably accurate I would say – what say you Bulanik?
the middle 70% something like Freema:…..and the bottom 20% like the EastEnders (which is hard for me to understand if they talk too fast – it is not just the accent but the unexpected turns of phrases too):……
Hmmm. You might have been correct in your assertion pre immigration but I would say that there is a ‘fusion’ of accents. The areas that speak ‘Estuary English’ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English) seem to have been more ‘infused’ with the accents of those from the influx of migrants that have travelled in over the years. That is, you can hear it much more in the speech.
Where regional dialects probably are more overt still are places further north than Birmingham in the West Midlands i.e. Liverpool, Leeds (think Mel B) and definately Scotland (Sheena Easton before she got all ‘American’) lol and also way down south in Dorset and Somerset. Particularly in the North of England, I have found that regional dialects are so strong that it often ‘dilutes’ the accent of most migrants over time.
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@ Demerera & Bulanik
Interesting comments. I did not know that about Patrick Stewart.
Who are good examples of people who speak Estuary English?
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Gosh, I really really love watching young women run fast…
Cynic, I take it back, I realise I do hear voices in my head, but, until you brought it up, and , I had to reflect about it, I realised I certainly do……intuition at work without my thinking brain knowing about it.
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@Bulanik and Abagond
Patrick Stewart’s accent sounds like ‘professional training’.
He, himself, is a Yorkshireman (up north, a long way from London) who grew up desperately poor and his accent/voice is a product of traditional Shakespearean theatre: pitch, accent, and all that.
Indeed. Patrick Stewart would have been emerging as an actor at a time when regional accents were frowned upon and most theatrical training concentrated on getting rid of this in favour of what was termed as ‘BBC English’.
@Bulanik. Would you agree that Ricky Gervaise is probably a good example of Estuary English at one end of the spectrum.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUg0OklPyg)
And then at another end of the spectrum is the T.O.W.I.E (The only Way is Essex) individuals. BTW, I do not watch the show. To me, its like watching paint dry.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl5vMvv85SM)
Basically Estuary English encompasses many of the features of ‘cockney’ but is distinct from it in some ways.
Can anyone hear the difference between Ricky and the T.O.W.I.E peeps? Or is it all much of a muchness?
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Just watching the 200 m final….
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My comment is in moderation but
Maggie Thatcher the ‘milk snatcher’ (joke – possibly only understood by other Brits) also had a regional accent that she ‘refined’ to a more ‘acceptable’ standard English
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Congradulations to Bolt, one of the greatest atheletes of all time
(I was just watching the womens 4 by 100 relay)
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The British actor who starred in House — Hugh Laurie — I had no idea he wasn’t American until I saw him on some show or other speaking in a distinct British accent! As I recall, on this other show he spoke much faster, his voice was at a higher pitch, and his words were mostly unintelligible (to my ear, anyway).
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@Bulanik
Yes. I forgot about ‘Amazing’ Alesha.
A ‘regional’ accent – Jessica Ennis. She’s a Sheffield lass i.e. a ‘Northener’
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@Fiamma
A lot of Americans said that about Hugh Laurie. Also Idris Elba too
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@ Demerera:
I think the accents are quite nice. When I think of British accents, I think of the royals like the queen (lol!) and cockney. Please forgive me. I’m not familiar with “typically British” accents.
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Demerera, Idris Elba can easily pass for a American; but I do like his type of British accent.
I don’t really know the different British accents. I read somewhere that the Beatles early accents are/were Liverpudulian (when they first arrived in the States). From listening to them speak in old clips, they had nice accents. Paul McCartney barely even sounds British these days.
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Bulanik,
Marianne Jean-Baptiste had a very nasal intonation in that show. She didn’t sound the least bit British to me, though she didn’t sound “typically” Black American either. If I hadn’t seen that she is Black and had only heard her voice, I would think that she is a white Jewish woman from Brooklyn.
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One reason why Q-tips are our friends. =$
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/09/spider-living-ear-canal-photo-_n_1761304.html
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Living in New York, I know a lot of White girls with a “Sorta Rican” accent.
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@Bulanik, Leigh: Fiamma; Abagond
I didnt realise there was a void in terms of lack of experience of the range of British accents.
Yes Fiamma – The Beatles are ‘scousers’ i.e. Liverpudlians from Liverpool. When they first made it ‘big’here even in the UK the Prime Minister at the time spoke with disdain about their ‘regional accents’ and said they were practically incomprehensible.
Mel B i.e. Scary Spice, cant seem to shift her Northern Leeds Accent.
John Hannah ‘Sliding Doors’ and ‘The Mummy’ cant seem to shift his broad Scottish Accent. Robert Carlyle (Trainspotting) seems to do better as does Robbie Coltraine.
Colin Jackson (ex athlete) is a Welshman but perhaps doesnt seem as broad as Tom Jones. Cant recall how Shirley Bassey sounds now but she is another famous Welshwoman.
Sting is another Northerner as is Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits). These northerners had distinct accents initially which have softenend seemingly over the years. Both are classed ‘Geordies’.
There are loads and loads but these are just some of the famous people I can think of.
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Who didn’t see this coming, and it’s only the beginning.
http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/120618_dna.htm
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Another one? http://www.politicususa.com/handcuffed-17-year-strangle-police-car.html
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SomeGuy:
Quite unfortunate. Inevitably, misguided people will attempt thwart free speech and free inquiry because it threatens their political or emotional beliefs. Just sad, really.
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@ Randy
Actually, what I think is more pathetic is the attempt to pervert a legitimate science to reinforce Neo-Nazi propaganda. Most countries in Europe have laws against that sort of non-sense and rightfully so.
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Thanks Demerera. Your post helps to shed light on the wide variety of British accents, which, of course, do include Scottish and Welsh (and Northern Irish?) accents.
I’ve always loved the sound of the Scottish burr. The Irish brogue, however, had to grow on me; and despite having heard the voices of Welsh celebrities, such as Anthony Hopkins, Catherine Zeta Jones, Richard Burton and Tom Jones, I still can’t identify the sound of a Welsh accent….
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SomeGuy:
I think I can offer a reasonable argument why such restrictions are ultimately detrimental to society, however, I’d be interested to know why you think that such testing is “nonsense” which is “rightfully” banned by some countries.
No need to get into technical detail, perhaps you can roughly outline the basis for your objection.
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@ Randy
I never said such testing is “non-sense” and what is rightfully banned in most of Europe is the display of Nazi paraphernalia and propaganda. I know the history of the Arrow-Cross party in Hungary, which was basically the Hungarian version of the Nazi party. Using DNA testing to determine “racial purity” is a throwback to racial hygiene of the Nazi era.
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@ Randy
I don’t think I clarified my point in that last post so I will so so now:
I do not believe that doing DNA testing to determine possible medical issues or even ethnic ancestry is unethical. What I was calling “non-sense” is not the testing itself, but the act of using DNA results in order to determine “racial purity” – which is actually impossible since no one is racially pure. However, people can be led to believe so with the right coercion.
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SomeGuy,
Just out of curiosity, what do you mean exactly when you say that “no one is racially pure”?
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@ Fiamma
Meaning, that if a person took a DNA test, that he would have only a single type of marker and no others. There are no real “racial” markers anyway, there are only markers than indicate geographic ancestry. Hell, since Europeans have Neanderthal DNA, that alone makes Europeans impure.
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SomeGuy,
OK, I understand you’re saying.
What you say about their Neanderthal DNA also makes sense — they are part Homo sapien sapien and part Homo neanderthalensis. Though, as I recall, Duckduckgoofs did manage to scrounge up some *news* about Africans also having some non-Homo sapien sapien / Neanderthal-like admixture as well.
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@ Abagond,
What do you think of TJ Holmes comment: “Driving while Black!”? Was he wrong to apologize?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/11/t-j-holmes-i-shouldn-t-have-tweeted-about-driving-while-black.html
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SomeGuy:
The arguments for freedom of speech, even the unpopular kind, are too numerous by people far more eloquent than I for me to make an attempt. I’ll just mention that the negative consequences invariably outweigh the positive ones.
SomeGuy:
That’s not very good reasoning. If “Group A” has 10% Neanderthal genes, then a pure “Group A” person ought to have 10% Neanderthal genes.
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The arguments for freedom of speech, even the unpopular kind, are too numerous by people far more eloquent than I for me to make an attempt. I’ll just mention that the negative consequences invariably outweigh the positive ones.
Europe does have free speech, just restrictions on HATE speech. Europe is not America. I could make an analogy about the right to bear arms and reasonable restrictions, but I’ll leave that to people far more eloquent than myself.
Basically, what you’ve done is state that impure is pure if everybody is impure, however when held against the original Humans, the Africans, impure is not pure. Besides, that’s not really the issue. The real issue is that Europeans, as well as everyone else, is a blend of different DNA markers from various geographic areas. I noticed you didn’t address that point in your response.
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And for further clarification, by “Africans” I mean ancient Africans, not modern day descendants.
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Let me give you an analogy:
A guy goes to the doctor who casually remarks that he read in a medical journal that apples can reduce the risk of some types of cancer. That man then goes out, starts up a clinic that serves apples pies, saying that apples can cure cancer. That’s not a free speech issue. That’s some sh*t that can get people killed.
Using DNA test to determine who is racially “pure” in Europe, a place notorious for racial abuses, is one of the worst ideas ever. It can do nothing but cause harm in that environment, especially when racial purity is a fantasy.
Again, this is an issue about medicine, science and ethics, not free speech – which you knew from my initial post, but chose to make some sort of statement.
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Bulanik,
.
The Welsh accent sounds, to me, sort of like a regional English one, with hints of Scottish here and there. The Irish does come through in the Northern Irish accent.
Thank you for going to the trouble of providing the links, Bulanik. You and Demerera are both gems.
(Don’t worry about the typos, I make enough of them myself.)
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw7kvqk-v4s)
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SomeGuy:
Either you or I are misreading the article. According to my understanding of the text, the politician in question asked a genetics company to see if he had markers of Jewish or Roma ancestry, and then himself declared the findings as indicating racial purity. He didn’t start a medical company which offered a dangerous procedure.
What I think you really object to is that such testing can be used as part of what you refer to as “hate speech”. I contend that there’s no such thing. I say let the marketplace of ideas sort out the loons from the sages.
“But what about the Nazis” you ask? Remind yourself that the NS movement was as dogmatic as any religion, and enforced it’s prohibition against free speech and free enquiry with gratuitous violence.
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This is true, my analogy purposely did not reflect the exact circumstances, but it illustrates my point more clearly. However, a public figure condoning genetic testing for such purposes can seem to legitimize them in the eyes of the masses. Unfortunately, the average person often cannot tell who is a loon and who is a sage. That is why scientists need to step up and speak out, which was done in this case.
Free speech has nothing to do with this. I never said to prohibit any speech specifically, which incidentally, European countries already do in the case of hate speech (whether you or I agree or not). But if men like that do start spreading misinformation, then it is up to the scientists to counter this propaganda with facts – immediately.
This discussion didn’t even have to happen. My initial post was a comment about how I knew that people would use DNA testing to prove racial purity. That’s it. Now, if you’d like to discuss that specific issue, then fine. But I’m not really interested in debating the merits or detriments of free speech.
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Another beautiful Black Woman with surreal talent:
http://www.liannelahavas.com/music.htm
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@ Sam
I’d like to be as clear as possible about something.
Understanding other people’s thought processes is important to me. And that means ALL peoples. I not only devour books by blacks such as Marcus Garvey and Tom Burell but also by Adolf Hitler and Albert Pike.
I think the American Dilemma is a great book. Also the Bell Curve. Mein Kampf was also at the top of my list of books to read. Does that mean I follow its teachings? No….Does it make me wonder? Yes.
But it does open one’s mind as to what and how other people think. I don’t feel like getting into a debate anymore with the whites on this blog because it’s fruitless.
I’ve learned that white people are simply incapable of learning anything. Period. That’s why I no longer waste my breath and strength on them. This blog has taught me that most whites have a learning and READING deficit. And frankly, I no longer give a $hit.
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“And frankly, I no longer give a $hit.”
Good, stop talking about whites then.
Stop degrading whites
Stop blaming whites for everything wrong with your race
Stop mentioning whites period.
But you won’t, you’ll continue projecting your own faults onto whites (some who deserve it, some who don’t) because you’ll have no one else to blame or hate and you need that scapegoat.
“This blog has taught me that most whites have a learning and READING deficit.”
And this blog has shown me blacks tend to exhibit the same traits whites do, same blame game with no end in site. You take things to far though, you believe in the same conspiricy theories that far-right white nationalists believe and you trump it around as knowledge.
Same thoughts, difference colour. My my, is the USA beyond help. And to think this country was something to be emulated.
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@ Bulanik
Well stated. What I find amusing is how the white readers on this blog can “entertain” certain thoughts about black dysfunction but cannot stand up to the same scrutiny. I don’t believe everything I read…that’s silly. And I do read a wide variety of things that make others uncomfortable. But that doesn’t mean that :
1. Those things are necessarily false
2. I take them to heart
3. Those theories can’t be discredited
I just read Zeitgeist again and found it fascinating. Does that mean I practice the occult? No. Do I believe that some things are beyond our comprehension? Yes. The same with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
And for the love of Jah, why can’t we talk about European dysfunction in the same capacity that they have preached about our dysfunction? Don’t Whites use the Curse of Ham to justify slavery? Then when questioned about Jesus having “hair of wool and feet of brass” they say that the bible is a fairytale!
Incredible!!!
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