The thread where you can never be off topic! Well, almost never. The rest of the Comment Policy applies, though.
Please put YouTube links in parentheses like so:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvlTG4yVByY)
Scroll down a bit to see the links to the archived open threads.
Hey, first post in the new thread! Abagond, who are the people in the top banner picture besides Bill Clinton?
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That is Bill de Blasio taking the oath of office yesterday to become mayor of New York. With him are his wife and two children.
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there is nothing happy about new years*sigh*. I have to get my dog put down tomorrow, it will be weird not having her by my side when I go walking. I hate seeing her sick and not eating, she usually eats everything in sight. dam cancer.
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@mstoogood4yall: I am so sorry about your dog. Our pets are family too.
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The Deblasio’s are what New York looks like diverse.
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RIP Uncle Phil.
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mstoogood4yall
Sorry to hear about your dog – never had one myself but I do like them a lot.
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Awww, mstoogood4yall. Sorry to hear about your dog. I’d be heartbroken if I had to put down my dog. He’s really a member of our family.
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Ms TooGood,
I’m sorry …
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@Mstoogood,
Dag, that sucks. Sorry for your loss. Well to commiserate, we got to get a new heater unit,-8k from our pockets already, darn thing gave out on New Year’s Day! It can only get better right! 😉
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Sorry to hear about your dog mstoogood4yall. 😦
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definitely started writing again, my cowriter is definitely going to be primary on it , is some fairly radical politics he has but i have the grammar part for the book, like a review, i am trying to come up with some type of shortcut or formula for english sentence forming, i mean in english i guess you just have to remind to bring it back to the basics, it is in serious development phase
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i had to put my cat down once, that was a bad day i practically started cryin at the vet i like ran out of there, actually this other kitten too, clover died at home, another cat
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my dumb ol ex-wife introduced my male cat to this sweet little kitten we had a little too soon also … dead cat in the house
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Forget about getting rid of carriage horses – as someone else somewhere else mentioned, that’s just a sop for the Lena Dunham hipster crowd. I want to see him shank the living daylights out of Stop and Frisk.
Speaking of which, I just saw a picture of Dunham and she looks 27 going on 37. Amazing how the age process just kicks the heck out of some folks.
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Does anybody freakin understand the ending scene in The Shining??
Why was Jack in the picture that read at the bottom 4rth of July Ball 1921?
Huh?
Was it reincarnation? What happened that July night?
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@V8driver,
Sorry dude…we have a couple of kittens as well.
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oh my cat’s fine now, she’s not allowed inside where i live now, so ‘miffed’ applies, but thanks
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@phoebeprunelle
I have not looked at that movie since I was a kid, so I won’t be much help in figuring it out, but I may just look at it out of my now peaked curiosity.
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phoebeprunelle,
I came to the conclusion that after Jack froze to death in the hedge maze, his ghost must have joined those of the partygoers who still populated the hotel, and that, as one of them, his image became joined with theirs in the group photograph, which in and of itself had become part of the hotel’s paranormal phenomena after being first taken in 1921.
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Aww mstoogood4yall
I’m so sorry to hear that. They really become a member of the family, don’t they? I’ve got a pug named Noodles; at home, it’s always me and Noodles. I had a cat that died a few years back named Ginger ninja, it’s impossible to keep cats on my street because of traffic. He wasn’t even an adult cat yet. It was horrible. I’m so sorry to hear that, hope you’re okay.
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Abagond
I came across this – I looked on here to see if you had any take on it but, unless I have searched wrong, couldnt find anything
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVena_Johnson
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@ Omnipresent
I have not yet done a post on her.
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abagond
Is it likely you will? This looks like one of those stories that need to be told.
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Mstoogood4yall: I wanted to introduce another of my favorite authors J. California Cooper. I just love her so much.
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@Omnipresent: I have heard of this Lavena Johnson and thought this was a horrendous incident.
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Yes @Kiwi
As a woman, it is preceded by, “you’re beautiful. . . are you mixed?” Meaning, if you’re an attractive Black woman, it must be down to being part White/non Black. I’ve seen this happen with my “full Black blooded girlfriends” as well. But then again, POC do this often.
(Shrugs.)
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Thanks everyone, i’m glad she isn’t suffering anymore it was peaceful in a way. I was scared of going to the vet with her when they put her to sleep but it wasn’t so terrible and I had my family with me. I got to say goodbye. it makes me appreciate life more, I thought she’d live to 10 but she made it to 8, she was great with kids i’ll miss her deep dark eyes. at least her brother is still with us though he seems kinda sad too.
@ mary I will check her out any specific book u have in mind thanks
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Kiwi, the fact that these whites need to be constantly reminded or reaffirmed in this particular belief means they don’t believe it deep down.
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What kind of punk are you , Kiwi? You have talked so much bs about me , and twisted so many things Ive said, that you are just full of crap…
Ive made it plain and said many times , black men have been role models for me, and I have admired black men and women…
I know black American culture really well, and you dont..you bite off black activist agenda , that you really know nothing about its origins as well, so I wouldnt trust you to advise or lead my wife and son anywhere but over a cliff…
I hope wretch on your uptight anti interracial hangups…the way you have described what I have said and twisted it to hades, I dont beleive any of the other descritpions you have laid out about your interactions with white men and Asian women…I dont trust my neices and nephews to get my life correct, why would I trust your version
hey mfer, back off your cheap , worthless psycho analysis of my interracial relationship, you are a punk who sounds like he needs to get laid
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I cant beleive I saw Jefe make another statement recently about black Americans and white Americans all dress alike and eat alike,..like they are the same culture…and nobody said anything about it….
nobody here can tell the differance and couldnt answer to that?
you are darn real I dont trust people to tell me squat about how to raise my son …who i never described as half white…my son has so much black Afro diasporic culture in him , that he eats it, lives it , breathes it…nobody cant say squat .it would be absurd and ridiculous to think anyonw on here could know what is better for my son…
the pseudo psycho analysis , free advice worth half the price, got my psycho analysis degree about interracial realtionships out of a detergent box, can kiss my behind
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…and I have never indicated that Im not upset by racism against Asian men
since the 60’s I remember me and a white co musician being upset at hearing a Viet Nam veteran calling some Asians “g…ks”, by the way , the only Viet Nam veteran I ever knew who used that language, we knew it was wrong and were upset..I also knew and was upset by the Japanese internment in world war 2 , and knew about it from the movie “here to eternity”…and I stated that on here
you are butt wrong, Kiwi, and you twisted things I said on here about Mao , communism ..I never called it the Asian Atrocity..Abagond did…I stated it wasnt a reflection on Asians…it was a reflection on the ideologue
so back off , chump
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Just this last April I had to put my 4 year old cat to sleep. She was simply wonderful; part Maine C00n, affectionate, friendly and quite intelligent.
You have my condolences on your loss, MsTooGood.
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Thanks legion and pay it forward. sorry for ur cat as well pay it forward. I’ve never had a cat but they seem nice especially when they purr, but when they hiss it sound like the devil.
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Thank you also, MsTooGood.
About that hissing sound — it is a natural defense mechanism used by cats when they feel they are in danger. It is meant to sound like the hissing of a snake; a sound which many animals might recognize and take retreat from upon hearing it.
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Saw the Nelson Mandela Long Walk To Freedom. Enjoyed it. I love Idris Alba
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Really , Kiwi , I dont want to talk about it with you , since you malign my statements and try to railroad on this blog that Im anti Asian. Its cronic with you , like a disease…you implied I didnt know Jefe was born in America , for me to fit the steryotype of thinking like Asians are foreigners , you buthered and hacked my statements about Mão , communism , and 50 million dying in my lifetime in China , because of that ideology , something short sighted on this blog in general, and your ridiculous anti interracial sex declarations , are creepy and you even fell for the absurd notion floating around on anti interracial sex blogs that I would hide behind my black wife and mixed son , the lowest of them all since the creeps pushing that would just culturaly lead my wife and son over a cliff
But you made some badly informed statements about Asians in Latin America , that I ought to set straight, or it will be one of those statements that just passes on here unchallenged , like its the truth…
Brazil has the largest population of japanese outside of Japan…
If you think the usa is bad with Asians, you should live here and see how it is worse…every Asian is Japa…the absence of Asians in the media is enormous, Brazil actualy had Japanese internment camps in ww2 , you have no idea , and your living in statistics about interracial sex , is a flawed way to look at it, statistics never ever had anything to do with interracial sex and dating for me in the 60’s , it was only attemted intimidation from all sides for both parties
This is why pulling back and looking for the whole truth is crucial in discussing these things, and is not derailing..how many times have I heard “oh, América is this and that and worse than anywhere”…when it just isnt the truth
You are so wrapped up in your own personal resentments , and insecurities , that you just superimpose that on your interactions with others, just like you twist what I say to fit your steryotype ..how can I beleive your testimony about Asian women , your uncles , etc when you warp what I say so badly?
And, man , you are in Lá Holla beach , San Diego ? There are so many fine hammers there, you need to quit worrying about interracial couples , and get some game and wade in and go after what you want…if trends changed as far as Asian women with white men , in just the last decade , it only means its fluid , and could reverse just as easily in other decades , if you worry about statistics you will never get anywhere
You should never have brought my name up in your flakey test…I dont really want to talk about uptight interracial sex issues with people on here, anymore, so leave my name out , unless you want me in your face
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@Pay it Forward,
Seriously? He’s forever doomed to haunt the place?
Thanks so much!
Maybe it’s just me, but there seemed to be a hint at Native American genocide in the film and to this day i have always wondered about Shelly Duvall’s (Wendy) “race.” Was she a Native American wife in the film? She was wearing sweaters and coats that had Native American motifs. She was also geeky and extremely submissive to Jack even though it was clear he had done his share of abusing his family.
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@ Herneith
Are you referring to assumptions about black women or Asian men? Just to clarify.
In this instance, black women. But it can also be applied to Asian men in North America.
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Who’s got back problems? Try Pilates to build some muscle and improve posture. I suffered from almost debilitating back pain through my teens because of my bust, but exercise can be a tremendous help by improving back strength and posture.
@Kiwi
I think it depends where you are. I’ve come across Asian men in “urban circles” in the past, and have never encountered an Asian man who didn’t have his pick of the litter. Perhaps I would personally witness the dynamic you speak of in White surroundings, but I’m yet to meet an Asian man in such an environment, or who didn’t much prefer his own women. Although the Asian guy who used to be in my life did tell me that most of his friends were White women obsessed. I hope you don’t worry about these things, it’s futile viewing your group as a monolith where you pine after cultural pride, unity, and progression; you’re born alone and you die alone, and a man is a man, and a woman is a woman. Just because someone looks like you it doesn’t mean they’re family. Imagine if I thought that way as a Black woman. Just be happy that you’re not contending with an identity crisis. As for everyone else, that’s their problem.
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/04/us/missing-michigan-doctor/index.html?iref=allsearch
Here we go again! Rarely do we see a missing black woman in the news but i should have guessed there would be a catch.
Now, instead of trying to find the woman and get the public to sympathize with her plight and peek people’s interest in her disappearance, so they would be on the look out for her, now she is being turned into a “talker” by the media.
what good that will do for her being found? Character assassination , much?
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I meant to type, “stalker” and not talker. -_-
Anywho….now as usual, white people are focusing on her being a stalker, than her well being. Typical…..
Now she is has a “Metal illness” and is “crazy” lol Black people can’t even go missing, without white people, demonizing us! Such sick and twisted people, white people are.
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@ Kiwi
You are going for some pretty cheap shots there. B.R rambles and says some crazy stuff but he doesn’t seem to be nasty.
I’m sorry, but most of the WM/AF couples where both members were born/raised in the same country are fairly equal when it comes to education. I will qualify this by saying this is the case in my experience.
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Really, Im sick of disscussing” anti interracial sex with white people ” on here, say what ever the hades anyone wants, but dont mention my name anymore, this crap is thouroghly disgusting…I wash my hands of it, it stinks to high hades
Just dont efing mention my name about, or ill come in and make it ugly
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that comment was a follow up to a comment i just made, I now see is in moderation…so if it comes in, you will get it better
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Hiya B.R.!!!
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@Kiwi
Oh, I know you’re not imagining things. Not too long ago, I came across an Asian gentlemen, and somewhere during the conversation, he happened to casually discuss the disparity. He wasn’t being critical, condemning, he just casually mentioned the fact that it exists. An Asian woman who happened to be married to a White guy overheard and said, “do you know what I can’t stand? It’s people like you.” It was really uncalled for. I don’t really care what people think or say about me, nor am I phased by distortions in the media, and a consistent narrative regarding who I am as a Black woman. I also have a suspicion that a lot of these types get off on the reaction, so I refuse to give them attention.
My point is that you can get to a place where you are permanently in defensive mode, which can be more taxing than it’s worth. The only way to change the representations you speak of, is for minorities to begin advancing to occupy spaces where they can create their own depictions and speak for themselves. This is the only way, because you can’t change people’s minds, and because of this, the views of those minds will probably stay the same no matter what.
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Lmao @ we can’t even go missing without getting in trouble. Trayvon Martin, after death, got in trouble for being k!lled, by the media, and now this Black woman is in trouble for going missing. This is like stand up comedy material, or something.
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Lol @Asians with “homely looking White people.” That would be the old, weird Woody Allen marrying his young Asian daughter stereotype, like the Black man/obese White woman stereotype.
You better be careful, you’re gonna get in trouble. I don’t know . . .
(Shrugs.)
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@Abagond:
Thanks for tweeting or is it tumbling?, my boyfriend Idris!
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This is completely off topic but I simply had to post it for a laugh. How the heck does someone get to be so stupid?
(http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/a-naked-man-becomes-stuck-in-a-washing-machine-after-a-risky-game-of-hide-and-seek/story-fnixwvgh-1226795866322)
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@ Kiwi, Legion, Ebony
While I’m sure that’s true in many cases, it’s certainly not true in all or even most.
Anyway, google Anna Chlumsky/Shaun So or Lorde/James Lowe. They kinda contradict your assumptions. I’d post a photo of my husband and I but then I’d just be asking for trouble, wouldn’t I.
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@ Kiwi
Rubbish.
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@ Kiwi
1. I am blonde.
2. I am certainly not a bimbo.
3. I am as educated as my husband.
In any case, all we are doing here is swapping personal anecdotes. Anecdotes are worth zilch in terms of proving anything.
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So why is my comment in moderation , Abagond? After I revised it, with a greeting to Sharina also in it?
Why have several of my apropriate responces to the diaria of the mouth anti interracial sex advocates on here, keep getting deleted? While they run their crud into the ground and insult commenters on here..it sure insults my intelligence
It just perpetuates the stereotype that people in interracial relationships are weak and meek and submissive and wont fight back, but , i asure you , i will tax the rear end of any mf er that gets elbow distance from me running this crud down
Why are you giving this kind of leeway and support to antiinterracial sex with white people , a holes?
I hate to think that my impresion that there is an anti interracial sex with white people stench coming off this blog, is true
being anti interracial sex in 2014 is pathetic, disgusting, weak, and obnoxious
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what the fuck is this abagond, praet x where everything that i write goes into moderation? what the are you afraid of?
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oh, great, these come up , after going into moderation…how about the responce I made revisions on? Thart is the one that counts…
everything I type immediatly goes into moderation…what, have I got you rattled, Abagond?
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ok, Ill try this, Abagond
Kiwi , All you are doing is reading what you want to into couples, couples you have absolutly no idea what their interpersonal relationships are , and what is the real dynamic…
Lets get one thing straight, you dont represent Asian Americans, or Asians period, about interracial sex with white people…all you represent is Kiwi, and your own insecurities, envies and jealousies, that you try to tack onto a bigger valid concern, Asian discrimination and the lack of the Asian story being told…and, you do it a disservice, you set your cause back, by letting your personal hang ups get gummed up in it…you make me really want to hear the testimony from the Asian women you insult so much…not your version of what they would say, their version…I dont trust my neices and nephews to get my story correct, why should I trust what you say about your aunts and uncles. If its anything like you have butchered what I have said, I can see why they want to lambast you…
I just dont trust what you have to say anymore…you blew it for yourself
being uptight about interracial sex in 2014 is disgusting, pathetic, and ridiculous
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Google today marks Zora Neale Hurston’s 123rd birthday:
https://www.google.com/
http://abagond.tumblr.com/post/72557164886/google-doodle-zora-neal-hurston
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@ B.R.: Two comments deleted for insulting language.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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@wordynerdygirl
I never said I believe the stereotype to be true, just that I have heard of the stereotype before.
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I am loving the goggle doodle today. It’s Zora Neal Hurston’s birthday. I loved “Their Eyes Were Watching God” I also have an anthology Mulebone.
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@ Kiwi, that background info is really interesting, and makes sense.
Thank you.
This East Asian man stereotype is pretty pervasive: a friend of mine who has a white English father and a Japanese mother used to say to me that some Japanese men walk around with the idea in their minds that they are physically and sexually inadequate to white men.
She mentioned a clip from the cartoon series “South Park” about 2 Japanese men saying that the white American man has a “gargantuan penis”.
I thought she had to be joking. It was just a silly cartoon, come on!
But no, she was adamant. It was no joke: this damaging (mis)perception among some East Asian men was not that rare.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NADEKHmwbXE)
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@Abagond
After noticing how many of your white commenters say that you are saying “white is bad.” I wanted to ask if that is indeed what you are saying or are you saying that white racism and white supremacy is what is bad not white people per se?
I have always took it as white supremacy and white racism as bad and if that is what you mean then I have to wonder if white supremacy and racism is so intertwined in the mind of certain white people that they themselves can not separate from it.
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@ Sharina
The short answer is that I am mainly thinking of racism, but, yes, it is so much a part of them that most White Americans think racism is “natural”, that it is a part of human nature that goes back to early man, that blacks are the same way but only in reverse.
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@Kiwi: I appreciate you sharing your experience as a young Asian man. It cause me to have reflection and think about others that experience racism due to white supremacy. Is this cathartic for you?
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@ Kiwi: Thank you for responding, and being candid.
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After being almost all the way through the show “The Wire,” and now, beginning to watch “24,” I have been bombarded with two examples of toxic Black marriages, where as soon as the Black wife is replaced with a White woman, happiness is found. Whereas any Black marriages/families intact are not shown but only mentioned, while numerous healthy White marriages are freely displayed. In what kind of world is a president shown to have a broken home in the middle of his presidency? One where the president is Black. I’m on the 3rd season of 24 now, and almost every female villain has been a Black woman, juxtaposed with a White female heroine. I don’t know if I like having my eyes opened to these things Abagond, it’s kind of hurtful once you know. Maybe ignorance really is bliss.
Actor LaSalle gets solo shot on Dr. Benton-focused ‘ER’
Published: Thursday, February 25, 1999
Knight-Ridder
Eriq LaSalle doesn’t seem brash or abrasive on the phone … although he is on TV.
But like his character, pushy surgeon Peter Benton on NBC’s “ER,” LaSalle doesn’t go quietly into the night when he feels the need to stand up for what he believes.
You might think LaSalle would be overjoyed about today’s episode of “ER,” airing at 9 p.m. on KCBD-TV Channel 11 (Cox Cable Channel 9), which showcases Dr. Benton who, to earn money to pay for the development of his hearing-impaired infant son, Reese, applies for a job as a fill-in doctor in Minnesota.
But Benton’s assignment is changed at the last minute, and he is sent to a small practice in a run-down Mississippi town.
“He learns more about what’s important to himself,” says LaSalle, 36, “because his personal life for the first time is beginning to, not just compete with his professional life, but ultimately is becoming victorious over that.”
But don’t expect the smile-challenged Benton to become a kinder and gentler doctor.
“I think he comes back with the knowledge that, `Well, maybe what I thought was the important thing to me is not,’ ” LaSalle says.
However, “he’s still going to be edgy, he’s still going to be a challenge. … I’m never going to neuter this guy.”
LaSalle, however, is somewhat ambivalent about the segment. Mostly every character on “ER” has had a solo showcase except Benton.
“Artistically, you definitely feel great about having an opportunity to do it,” LaSalle says. “But you also feel that the Benton character has contributed as much to this show as anyone else. And should we feel grateful to be treated equally?”
LaSalle also doesn’t feel equal treatment has been given to Benton’s love life. He didn’t understand how his character’s relationship with fellow doctor Elizabeth Corday (Alex Kingston), who is white, was cast as so loving and tender, while Benton’s past relationships with women of his own race had to be so dysfunctional.
“(Of) the two (black) relationships that I had prior to Corday, one was an adulterous relationship with Jeanie Boulet (Gloria Reuben),” LaSalle says, “and then the next relationship I got into was with Carla (the mother of Benton’s son, played by Lisa Nicole Carson). And unfortunately the writing there was every time you see them they’re either fighting or (having s-x).”
And even though LaSalle loved the Corday relationship and was thrilled to work with Kingston, he still thought the writers were “sending a message that I didn’t want to be a part of it, which was the only time that this man becomes human and tender and vulnerable and open is when he falls in love with a white woman.”
So LaSalle asked executive producer Lydia Woodard if the relationship could be called off.
The dynamic of “ER” radically changed last week when George Clooney departed the show, taking his maverick Dr. Doug Ross with him.
LaSalle says the loss of Ross will have a “huge impact” on the series, but because of the ensemble nature, everyone has to pull together creatively to fill the gap.
The gap will widen at the end of next season, when the contract of Julianna Margulies, who plays nurse Carol Hathaway, is up.
LaSalle’s contract runs out at the same time, and all he will say about it is: “I will honor my contract.”
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Abagond:
There is solid evidence to support the claim that “groupism”, of which “racism” is a type, is natural and endemic to the species.
Here we see an example of people being people in South Sudan:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-08/sudans-lost-boys-get-caught-their-countrys-violence-once-again
http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-07/peace-talks-started-south-sudan-quickly-hit-roadblock
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@Randy
Since it is indeed so natural then I would think you would have several examples the world over. It seems only natural to those that choose to excuse it.
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Sharina:
There are plenty of examples to choose from, even if you only examine what’s going on today. Look at central Africa, the Indian subcontinent, SE Asia.
I referenced the situation in South Sudan having recently heard that particular story on the radio and seeing how it was relevant.
Let me emphasize that I’m not suggesting that “natural” equates to “desirable”. Far from it.
However, I do believe that any genuine attempt to fashion a social and political order that maximizes peace and prosperity for the greatest number of people must at least begin with pragmatic understanding of people and their real natures.
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With regards to Asian ancestry in Blacks, according to results of an autosomal DNA test, I have Asian ancestry from many points of Asia, e.g., east & southeast, and south, west & southwest, as well as north and central. Oddly enough though, it (my aDNA results) shows not even trace amounts of Polynesian, Melanesian or Micronesian, though I have frequently been asked if I am Hawaiian, even though I am built nothing like a Native Hawaiian (I have heard from a woman who lives in Hawaii and is married to a man who is part Native Hawaiian, that the petite but shapely female hula dance performers are typically Filipinas rather than Native Hawaiians).
I have long chalked my physical appearance up to my Native American ancestry, even though facially I am much more East / North Asian in appearance than most Amerindians appear to me to be. The revelation of my having Asian ancestry came as quite the suprise to me and, yet, it makes perfect sense, actually.
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Kiwi writes:
“If everybody can see their ancestry tracing back to Africa, to the same origin, what will be the impact on racist thinking?”
_ _ _
A good question. Even now, with the Out of Africa theory, there are racists who simpy choose not to believe it, and that’s regardless of how many million+ year old hominid bones are pulled out of the east African soil. Then of course there are those individuals, ethnic heritages notwithstanding, who will continue to subcribe to the “Garden of Eden” theory, wherein the origin of Mankind lies somewhere in Mesopotamia circa 4000 BCE.
I remember how one racialist – somewhere in the comments of this blog, I believe – downplayed the importance of a common African origin for Mankind by stating words to the effect that every living being has its origin in “primordial muck” anyway . . . .
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PS- I’ve expressed an interest to continue education. I’m going through the Khan Academy right now and am on pre-algebra learning scientific theory. I absolutely recommend this program on youtube. I’m breezing right through it like the robot on “Short Circuit”
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhZkvKm1Oco)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhZkvKm1Oco)
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@Kiwi
Yes, I think this is true. Asians who choose to live among whites have to adopt their attitudes towards blacks. It is almost as if to be acceptable to whites, you have to prove that you are anti-black.
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@Pay it forward
You have seen this video, no?
(http://youtu.be/ODGDDjV55XA)
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@Kiwi
Abagond was so quick to dismiss the Asian ancestry of black Americans as some kind of mistake, but I did challenge that notion back in 2012. Something like 1/3 of all Asian men in Arkansas, Mississippi and Louisiana married black women or took black women as common law wives from 1870s – 1940s (although it occurred across the country). Then there were the manila men in Louisiana and also migrants from the Caribbean. There were many sources of Asian ancestry into the black American population.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/some-numbers-on-black-americans/
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@Randy
I guess I can be honest in saying that is quite a way of looking at it. Appreciate the response.
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@Kiwi
That is interesting and I must say I feel a bit sorry for her to. I would think of it as a survival technique. Sometimes you have to tell yourself things to get by.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsIqV42qhfw) This was supposed to be the first video above.
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@ Kiwi: Rabbit Proof Fence is a good movie. White supremacy is all over that narrative in that story.
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My wife’s foreign-born asian friends use the term “c***ky eyes” rather freely. I don’t gather from the context that it’s perceived as being offensive.
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Mary,
I agree with your comment regarding the film “Rabbitproof Fence”. The sad thing is that this story concerns actual eugenic attempts made by whites in Australia to breed Aboriginal traits out of mixed race white / Aboriginal children and young people.
These mixed race children were taken from their homes to be trained as servants for whites. It was expected that they would eventually find marriage partners among whites as well.
The plan was that if mixed race Aboriginals procreated with whites only, the resulting offspring would, with each successive generation, come out whiter and whiter until eventually they’d appear just as white as any Englishman. . . .
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“@Pay it forward
“You have seen this video, no?
(http://youtu.be/ODGDDjV55XA)”
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Hi, Jefe:
I haven’t bothered to view the clip in its entirety, as I do recall hearing of it on a TV program or the news. IIRC it concerns a Chinese scientist who believing that Chinese people are intrinsically different from others, set out to show that the Chinese have a separate origin from the rest of Mankind. His studies / tests, however, showed that genetically the Chinese have an African origin right along side the rest of Mankind…or something like that. It’s been a while since I heard the details of the story.
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“Groupism” is not the same as racism. Nor is racism a subset of it. Racism is an imaginary system created by and for the benefit of white supremacists. It is misleading to equate religious or tribal clashes with an artificial system based on contrived differences. If someone wants to use a common social behavior as a way to normalize racism then the appropriate equivalent would be the cattiness of a typical clique of teenage girls. Actually one could seriously say that racism is a subset of an adolescent girl’s social developmental. Both are based on forced exclusion of a targeted group. And both are held together by creating an negative image of the target. So in that sense, yes racism is natural for girls with immature minds.
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Mary,
I agree with your comment regarding the film “Rabbitproof Fence”. The sad thing is that this story concerns actual eugenic attempts made by whites in Australia to breed Aboriginal traits out of mixed race white / Aboriginal children and young people.
These mixed race children were taken from their homes to be trained as servants for whites. It was expected that they would eventually find marriage partners among whites as well.
The plan was that if mixed race Aboriginals procreated with whites only, the resulting offspring would, with each successive generation, come out whiter and whiter until eventually they’d appear just as white as any Englishman. . . .
DDC:This was also attempted with the black american but no matter how much white blood was poured into our bloodlines, we still remained uniquely african-american, and whites fear and hate is for it..lol.
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@Legion, I am sorry if I rattled your cage a bit, but let me explain.
It certainly is. Scroll down.
There is certainly some Asian attitudes about shade of skin colour which may have already been there even before white colonialism, but I think most Asians, without the influence of white culture and education, still see blacks as another human being. But, in the USA, there is something else at play that forces anti-black attitudes onto its non-black population.
I think maybe.
If you look at the nature and history of race relations in the USA, esp. for the past 150-160 years, you might notice some patterns and practices with how the USA deals with a “3rd race”. I’ll try to be brief, but this is a big topic. (I first got intrigued by the topic after reading James Loewen’s book on the Mississippi Chinese, but learned more as I also researched about my own family’s history). This whole topic needs about 4-5 separate posts all on its own.
First, illustration during the Jim Crow era:
* 1850s-1870s: The USA joins in the transpacific slave (or “coolie”) trade that had already been started by Spain, bringing in forced labour from China and Southeast Asia. Britain’s coolie trade was mostly via the Iindian ocean and the Atlantic and also included India / South Asia. The west coast found it easier to import coolie labour across the Pacific Coast and those states technically banned slavery anyhow (at least black slavery). Coolie ships were modeled after the Transatlantic slave ships and coolie labour codes were modeled after the Fugitive Slave Codes in the Southern states. By 1880, many towns in the west were large minority, or even majority Chinese, not unlike blacks in the southern states.
* 1870s: Southern plantation owners heard how successful the western railroads and mines were able to be built using coolie labour. They tried to lure them to Arkansas, Louisiana and Mississippi to replace black slaves, and did manage to get several thousand to come over from the West, esp. given the anti-Asian violence in the post-railroad period. Some southern plantation owners even formed delegations that went all the way to China to recruit coolie labour.
* 1880s: Chinese Exclusion Act – the supply of labour is cut off. The supply of women is also cut off. Not repealed until 1940s.
*1880s: Chinese in the South learned they would be treated nothing more than slave labour to whites. Most left the plantations. Some left the South, but some filled a niche not performed by whites or blacks,: opening stores selling basic goods to black labourers who were migrating away from the plantation owner’s sharecropper commissary. These stores operated in black neighborhoods and Chinese shopowners usually lived on top of their store. One reason that Chinese were able to do this was because they had an advantage over both whites and blacks. Unlike whites, they had no fear of being socially stigmatized as selling to blacks (they were already treated as “coloured” by whites), and unlike blacks, they were a lot more socially organized, sharing culture and language that set them apart from whites and even could share credit, distribution and logistic networks.
* 1880s – 1960s: Asians were banned from marrying whites. From 1880s – 1920s, at least
1/3 or more Asian men in the South married or formed families with blacks. This even made them viewed as “colored” by whites even more.
* 1906 SF Earthquake – whites let Chinatown burn to the ground. It opened the door to tens of thousands of Chinese claiming to having had their records burned in the fire. After the 1898 Wong Kim Ark decision, tens of thousands claimed citizenship, and they devised ways to smuggle in “paper” sons and daughters to circumvent the Exclusion Act. By the 1910s, some even made it to the Deep South.
* Small but growing numbers of families were formed with young Asian children born as American citizens
* 1927: US Supreme Court upheld the right of Mississippi to label Chinese-Americans as “Colored”. That means that they were treated exactly the same as blacks – colored schools, colored public facilities, barred from joining or participating in any white institution or living in any white neighborhood.
* Chinese-Americans did not take the label of “colored” sitting down and began to work to change their status as soon as they could. The first thing they did:- form schools and churches for Chinese-Americans that were neither white nor black, and had white schoolteachers and Sunday school teachers teach their kids. It helped place the image in the minds of Whites that although Chinese were colored, they were not exactly black.
* By the early 1940s, they were allowed to attend the white churches (or at least the Chinese mission of the white churches). After China became the US’s ally in WWII, they repealed the Exclusion Acts and Chinese-American kids were allowed to attend white schools (but could not win awards, such as valedictorian, which always had to go to a white student). . By the end of the 1940s, many got to attend white sections of public facilities as the white kids got used to having Chinese-American kids in their church and school.
* One group was excluded – those Chinese that married, lived with, or formed families with blacks. Whites made it very clear that they cannot even risk letting any Chinese-American in their institutions unless they completely excluded anyone with any quantum of black ancestry.
this is an illustration of how whites have “forced” Asian-Americans to pretend to assume their anti-Black attitudes in the Jim Crow era. We can find many illustrations of this.
During the civil rights and post-civil rights Affirmative action era (1960s-1970s), this was reinforced again. Many white institutions tried to prevent or at least delay blacks integrating by allowing a few token non-white non-blacks (eg, Asians) to enter. These token non-whites were used as a means to demonstrate that whites *DID* let non-whites in (while still delaying black entry).. However, in order for these non-whites to maintain their status in the institutions, they had to actively demonstrate to whites that they are NOT black, but more like them, including mimicking their anti-black attitudes. I am VERY familiar with this as I witnessed this often during my childhood.
During the post-80s Model Minority stereotype era, it has been pressed again. How do you think Whites have managed to “integrate” their neighborhoods, their schools, their businesses, yet still manage to keep them largely non-black. They force them to join “The White Club” (see https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/the-white-club/). But I think one thing that Abagond left out was the requirement to clearly differentiate yourself from black people (or for black people, differentiating themselves from “THOSE” black people). That way, whites can still claim that, in a “post-racial” world, they are not racist and there is no need for affirmative action, but still marginalize “colored” folk. It is a shame that some non-whites are hoodwinked into believing this, but they whether knowingly or not become a platform for anti-black racism. If they don’t, then they risk being labeled as “colored” (or in late 20th century terminology, “minority”, which has been expanded to include some Latinos).
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“DDC:This was also attempted with the black american….”
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Interesting! I don’t recall hearing anything about an official ‘whitening’ program for mixed race Blacks in the US.
I’ve heard there is an unofficial and ongoing one in the UK which encourages Blacks to seek out white mates (or, at the very least, does not DIScourage them from doing so). According to statistics, a whopping fifty percent of Black males in the UK are in an IR relationship, while 30% of the Black women are involved in one. And unlike in the US, mixed race persons are officially acknowledged as being ‘mixed race’ in the UK.
In 1930s Australia there was an actual government sanctioned program with the stated mission of whitening mixed race Aboriginals out of existence through association and eventual marriage / amalgamation with whites. The program was headed up by one Auber Octavius Neville, the “Chief Protector of Aboriginals, in Western Australia”
With regards to the US though, I don’t know that there ever was an actual ‘push’ in the US, official or unofficial, to breed Blacks out via intermarriage with whites / non-Blacks . To my thinking, the vast majority of US whites – right along side the vast majority of all other of the non-Blacks who reside here – are probably quite distressed at the thought of being married to a Black person.
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“but I think most Asians, without the influence of white culture and education, still see blacks as another human being. But, in the USA, there is something else at play that forces anti-black attitudes onto its non-black population”
I think u are right, I read this article about how blacks dealt with racism from whites as well as Japanese and how the whites spread stereotypes about blacks.
http://blasiannarrative.blogspot.com/2011/04/part-x-occupation-post-war-period-and.html
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I have mixed emotions about the beautiful and geeky Sasheer Zamata getting the newest cast member gig on SNL…
First of all *bit of nervous laughter* SNL hasn’t been funny in years (like since Jimmy Fallon time), and secondly Sasheer’s costar on the web series The Pursuit of Sexiness is a bit more funnier–but i think if they auditioned and hired her, she would be “The Mammy” archetype due to her size and color…then we’d all be complaining all over again (lol).
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Very interesting IMHO:
http://maxamillionracism.tumblr.com/post/72060018904/50-privileges-i-have-as-a-minority
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@Anne
Thank you very much for further explaining this idea of groupism vs Racism. I greatly appreciate it.
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@phoebeprunelle
I have to agree. It has not been funny in years. I was expecting it to have been cancelled by now but I guess it remains funny to someone.
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I think to be fair, the glial should be given a small amount of credit as well.
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I am feeling nervous about the new Saturday Night Live cast member as well. All I know is she better bring the funny. She has got to be on point. I know that she is under pressure, but I feel that white man who does the hiring is probably looking for her to fail. He hired her because black people were complaining. I hope the sister is successful.
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@guessmyname: That link is on point. There is lots of truth to that.
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guessmyname, wow thank you for the link and my mind was blown. I read every minority privilege. I still think that some folks don’t realize the various forms of passive racism so the offensive behaviors are viewed as acceptable.
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@Legion,
I hope now you might understand how, no matter while trying to escape Jim Crow in the 1940s, trying to enter or stay in institutions that still tried to keep blacks out in the Affirmative Action 1970s, or trying to hold on to their honorary white status in the Model Minority 1990s-2000s, white America has consistently been trying to force Asian-Americans and other “3rd race” peoples into assuming or adopting their (ie, “white”) anti-black behaviors and attitudes in exchange for certain privileges. Most of it comes directly from white people. The unsaid threat is that they can remove those privileges at any time and relabel them the same as blacks (which is what they did to Asian-Americans before the 1940s, and what they seem to be doing today to brown Latinos). The racial hierarchy is kept in strict order with whites on top.
Even in Asia, I really don’t think that those particular attitudes came from Asia itself, but indirectly through the US media and war efforts as highlighted in the reference offered by mstoogood4yall.
@mstoogood4yall,
THANKS A MILLION.
I think you cross-referenced that guy’s blog’s posts before. You know, I think all of us can learn a lot about how white people promote their anti-black racism (even to Asian-Americans, or EVEN all the way to Asia) by learning about the perceptions and insights of Blasians. But I think we need the learn experience of more than a couple as they come from so many different backgrounds. But I think the guy you referenced is a good one.
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@ Kiwi
I must say I’m a little surprised that most of the Asian families you know were promoting marriage with whites. Maybe things are a little different in the US.
I have a good relationship with my mother in law but she was initially very disappointed that my husband had not chosen a Vietnamese woman as a partner. In saying that, she was also annoyed that my brother in law chose an Indonesian Australian woman for a wife. Her opposition was mainly based on the fact that she would have preferred daughters in law that she could communicate well with.
Most of the men and women I met in Korea, while open to dating non Koreans, were not open to marrying them. The vast, overwhelming majority of Koreans preferred other Koreans as serious partners.
Again, all of this is anecdotal. I’d be interested in reading some attitudinal surveys on the topic. I think I’ll try and dig one up.
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@ jefe
I agree with you that many of the racist stereotypes in Asian countries originate from the West. I think I linked a while back to the blog of a half black/half Korean American guy a while back – he covers those topics at length.
(http://metropolitician.blogs.com/)
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Ha-ha, it is funny (but, sadly true) how we can say that an Asian immigrant, or even an Asian that has never been in the USA can be white-washed even before they step on US soil.
I tried to explain in the WET thread, but UM just tried to tear the argument down saying that the images of blacks and Latinos in US media are not like that anymore, but they indeed still are. He wants proof that it is still happening (ie, Asians in Asia or anyone overseas getting those stereotyped images), but frankly, that is pretty much all I have seen. Nearly everyone I met who has never lived in the USA (which is 98% of the people I encounter on a daily basis) get their images of blacks and Latinos from US News and Media.
Kiwi, did the parents of your immigrant friends ever notice how the US media portrayed Asians? Do they believe those stereotypes already (ie, replaced their originally images of Asians with the stereotyped versions taught in the US media)? Their kids probably already have.
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Jefe:
In many discussions which I’ve observed, the establishment of this claim appears to be sufficient to conclude that the portrayals of certain groups people in the media is significantly inaccurate.
I’d argue that while possibly true, this claim does not by itself sufficiently support that conclusion.
My understanding of lions is completely based on media portrayals, but that doesn’t mean that my safety concerns with regards to lions is completely unwarranted.
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The CDC debunks the myth of the absent black father:
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2014/01/11/more-similarities-than-differences-in-study-of-race-and-fatherhood/
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@ Randy
Lion behavior is driven by instinct, not reason. There is much less nuance and far fewer factors to consider when analyzing animal behavior vs. human behavior. Bad analogy.
The problem is that the News Media is not written to give people a balanced view of the world. It is written to compete for the highest number of viewers in any given market. So, in general, sensationalism trumps balance.
Therefore, in a country where an artificially constructed, multi-generational system of racism has disproportionately effected minority communities historically, there are bound to be more sensational stories in the resulting poor ghettos and barrios than in the population at large.
There is no explanation given as to why these ghettos exist, who created them, and under what circumstances of legally-sanctioned deprivation and exclusion. No White person gets on screen and leads into the story saying, “OK folks this next story is from an area suffering from the conditions that many bad White people created decades ago by our blind hatred and unfairness.”
So, the shorthand version that people around the world get is:
All Blacks = Bad
All Latinos = Bad
All Whites = Good, Normal, Nice, Smart.
And we all know that this is as far a deviation from truth as can be offered.
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@Randy,
Is that media portrayal of lions that you pay so much attention to based mostly on stereotypes, or by people actually don’t encounter lions, or who only actually encountered them in Zoos and Circuses? or only from movies like Kimba or Tarzan or the Lion King?
Popular media portrayal of dolphins IS certainly not accurate. A wild dolphin is not a pet or human-like and they can kill a human in a heartbeat. But you would never know that watching Flipper.
Much of the media portrayals of blacks that non-Americans (and many Americans for that matter) encounter are based on stereotypes and often done by people who do not have regular contact with them or by people who contact them in very negative ways.
The portrayal that Loewen did on Southern blacks was not from Gone With the Wind, but based on primary and secondary research while he was a professor at Tougaloo College, an all-black college at the time in Mississippi. Since then, he has devoted his career teaching about racism and history, in part trying to debunk popular history’s depiction of blacks. Now, if I had never encountered a black person, and all I learned about black was from secondary portrayals, my impression from reading Loewen’s books would be very different from watching Gone With the Wind, or watching the TV show “Cops”. Maybe you learned about Lions from Discovery Channel, or maybe you learned about them from watching the Lion King.
When I watch Al Jazeera’s special reports on black Americans, it is rather different from Fox’s. But you know what images non-Americans see about blacks?
I have even heard some non-Americans comment to me, after visiting the USA for the first time and encountering some blacks, that they were surprised how nice and normal they are, not like the images they had picked up from TV and movies.
I think you rather derailed the argument by bringing up Lions. It is like your prior argument about pet dogowners. You are trying to make the point that it is reasonable and natural and justified for non-Americans or recent immigrants to learn that blacks and brown Latinos are thieves, violent and best avoided, parroting the white stereotypes in the media, by bringing up LIONS? ???
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@ Jefe: Excellecent points, But this is how non American view all non whites through racist stereotypes from television. I am not surprised by Randy’s comments this is his usual schtick.
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Hahaha!!
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King:
We agree here, but that argument is perhaps most accurately labelled, “Potential sources of media bias”, and not immediately applicable as to whether a specific group has been unfairly characterized.
King:
Possibly true, but that does not appear to usefully inform an outsider’s relative sense of concern when visiting particular communities. It’s a “why” not a “what” or “how much” argument.
To be clear, I’m not saying that you’re necessarily wrong, but rather that the common arguments for supporting the original claim are insufficient, and appear to answer a different question.
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@ Randy
Well it would be different if we were talking about PLACES intend of types of people. If someone said that the the South side of Chicago was dangerous and should probably be avoided, then I would not fault them. They might also say that about The Tenderloin district in San Francisco.
Pointing out dangerous places to travel or be especially careful in is fine. But then there is a certain art even to the issuances of these kind of warnings. For example, I could simply highlight only Black and Latino areas. And conveniently leave out all the Blue collar White neighborhoods where bar fights routinely spill out into the streets late at night and patrons fight on the sidewalks on their way home or to sleep in the car.
I might also leave out all of the higher crime Meth zombie neighborhoods
http://missoulian.com/news/local/meth-use-crimes-on-the-rise-in-missoula-county/article_8034eaac-22fc-11e3-bd21-001a4bcf887a.html
It’s not like there aren’t enough places around where this is just as big a problem as crack was in the Black community in the 1980s and 90s.
The point is that giving the impression that race is the issue and primary indicator of danger, rather than bad behavior, is clearly wrong.
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Libertarian rhetoric and leftist rhetoric are both often co-opted by fascists.
Family friendly white supremacy …
http://rosecityantifa.weebly.com/1/post/2014/01/meet-the-oregon-freedom-party-part-one.html
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@king
“The point is that giving the impression that race is the issue and primary indicator of danger, rather than bad behavior, is clearly wrong”
u know ur comment made me think about an app that came out last year and instead of just being an app telling people where safe areas are it turned into this http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/racist-app-taken-down-after-twitter-attack/story-fn5j66db-1226712643772
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@ Randy
Wow. Comparing black people to wild animals.
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@ mstoogood4yall
Wow, I never heard about that! It’s easy t see how it could happen though, unfortunately.
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@mstoogood4yall: I read about that whack app.
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http://visitkoreatown.org/lapd-brutality-koreatown-not-safe-for-tourists/
LAPD war against POC …
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Jefe:
This is the common claim, but one which I rarely see being supported.
Observation point: the producers of the television show COPS have admitted to portraying a higher percentage white criminals than would otherwise we shown in a deliberate effort to advance a progressive agenda.
Jefe:
I’ve heard similar statements regarding the overall level of perceived violence. People are poor judges of risk to be sure.
However, the core argument we’re talking about here is the perceived disparity between media portrayals of different groups and their actual behaviors. Your statements here add no evidence to back that claim.
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Abagond:
Oh please. I’ve been arguing a “universalist” perspective for so long that you ought to know that I’m not singling out anyone for direct comparison to being wild animals.
If anything, I attempt a race-bias-neutral approach to understanding history and populations of people.
There are two primary points being considered in this line of debate:
1. The applicability of media portrayals of groups in fairly informing a person’s views.
2. The existence (and hopefully descriptions) of bias in contemporary portrayals of particular groups.
The comment about lions referenced point #1.
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Randy said “Observation point: the producers of the television show COPS have admitted to portraying a higher percentage white criminals than would otherwise we shown in a deliberate effort to advance a progressive agenda.”
That doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. How would showing more “white criminals” advance a progressive agenda? COPS is a weak justification for a police state.
All shows whether they be sitcoms or news media market their shows to specific groups who have an interest in a particular view point. Bias sells and confirming bias solidifies a particular market. The media is not about a specific ideology or truth but about market share and money. Thus Fox, MSNBC, and talk radio can all be different.
When it comes to TV perceived stereotypes are written into sitcoms by people who are not part of the communities they write about.
What you wont see on COPS is police brutality including the rape and murder of civilians.
Youtube adds videos like that everyday showing this growing problem.
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@ Kiwi
White women also have the option to pretend to be those sexualized stereo types if they so wish as they have the privilege to do that.
In my opinion all men have the potential to objectify women and be sexist and patriarchal. I don’t see it as purely a white man problem in the same way racism is unique to being white.
The root cause of what your describing is white western Christianity. Christianity defined those stereotypes and others as heathen.
Patriarchy comes directly from religion because religion is hierarchal in structure. Their are plenty of places in the world today where women are treated as chattel because of religion. Demystifying religion and humanizing it would move humanity forward.
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Interesting. How do you explain the Patriarchy in the Atheist Soviet Union and Atheist Communist China?
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I think I have a simpler explanation. Men are generally larger and physically stronger that women, by and large. And they take advantage of it.
There’s your origins of sexism. That would mean that cave men were sexists too.
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@Randy
That was *NEVER* the core argument I was talking about. I was never trying to speculate about actual behaviors, and by extension, I was not talking about perceived disparity.
What I was talking about was how overseas non-Americans (and also many domestic Americans it seems) get their perceptions of blacks (and to some extent Latino Americans) from media portrayals, particularly popular (Western / American) media and news, without actually ever encountering them. It is interesting to note that their perceptions learned are similar to those of white Americans.
So, I noted that most people, say in Asia, did not form their perceptions of blacks from something native to Asian cultures, but imported from America during the wars and military occupation, as well as media and news.
I am not about to speculate about the predicted behavior of any individual, but I don’t automatically assume that individuals, being what they are, will always conform to stereotype. At least I know that those are stereotypes. Those people who have never been to the USA may not recognize them as mere stereotypes, but they still learn the image and internalize the perception.
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http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/03/nation/la-na-cuba-blacks3-2010jan03
Again , Kiwi tries to pass off misinformation
Marxism has absolutly nothing to do with anti racism , if you read the manifest, it sais nothing of anti racism, Che was a proven racist ,what a foolish miscinception to try to pass off marxism as anti racists , or interested at all in black afro diasporic culture, various communist countries banned jazz and jazz dancing ..but, people like Kiwi are ignorant of the real struggles and what is at stake with afro diasporic culture, as many so called political agendas you see spouted on here..they would run afro diasporic culture over a cliff , and not bat an eye
Kiwi is so hung up on anti interracial sex, its consuming him inside
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I found this in an old book (source: http://books.google.com.br/books?id=-_w6AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA215&f=false ) I thought that it might be interesting to share. It’s in French:
“Traite des Negres, Comm. d’Afrique, c’est l’achat des negres que font les Européens sur les cótes d’Afrique, pour employer ces malhereux dans leurs colonies en qualité d’esclaves. Cet achat des negres, pour les réduire en esclavage, est un négoce qui viole la religion, la morale, les lois naturelles, & tous les droits de la nature humane. (…)”
Denis Diderot & Jean Le Rond d’Alembert, “Encyclopédie” (1781)
Translation (caveat emptor: French is not my mother tongue, neither English):
“Treaty of the Negroes, Commerce of Africa, is the buying of negroes that Europeans do at the coasts of Africa, in order to employ these unfortunate in their colonies as slaves. This buying of negroes, for their reduction to slavery, is a business that violates the religion, the moral, the natural laws and all the rights of human nature”
There’s more in the text.
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@ King
Lol! Of course, the cave dwellers are men! It must be so because it’s universal! They had social institutions! Early Man, you know — men — had higher status and control — it’s a universal model, right? — based on physical strength! It was the natural order because the natural order IS biological order, and that is same thing! 😀
Joking aside, King, are we sure of their relationships, and the meaning that their biological roles and potentials were imbued with?
Do you think the explanation is only the traditional socio-biological one espoused by (patriarchal) scholarship?
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@ King, Kiwi, I used to work with a woman from former DDR (East Germany) who said she missed aspects of that society. She was a member of the academic elite in Potsdam, and she found aspects of that society highly beneficial to her as a woman.
She explained it this way: the Communist state was a Patriarchal state where women are liberated from individual men, but not from their traditional family roles. For example, having children, she said, was done in service of the State: the State, in the form of kindergartens, and State nurseries, were everywhere and every mother’s entitlement.
Although traditionally “masculine” jobs and industries were given more funding and prestige and pay over “feminine” ones, everyone was subordinated to the Patriarch, the Party. That means that although women had relative independence from men, they were never autonomous unless they were part of an elite set and could bend the rules under the radar…
Admittedly, I am skipping a lot of what she said, but, briefly, that’s how it was for her.
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Bulanik, it’s caveMEN! 🙂
But, I think that sexism is certainly channeled through all human institutions, certainly religion included. But I think that at base, there is the male abuse of biological differences. From that germ the the scion of sexism is grown.
I imagine that “how” and “why” it manifests beyond that point would be beyond my life’s work to describe.
as for Patriarchy under communism, I think there are differences in manifestation, but in the end, it’s always a group of men at the top that all women (and most men) must answer to. Somehow, men still find a way to remain in ultimate control.
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King, the abuse element, the threat of violence can never be ruled out in passing down and ultimately upholding male dominance.
Nevertheless the sociological theories point to historical forces rather than biological ones, economic and cultural reasons over bodily differences; more popular now, are theories that say hunter-gatherers were not male-dominant: (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201105/how-hunter-gatherers-maintained-their-egalitarian-ways)
Also, so much traditional scholarship in common understanding is “influenced” by colonial culture. I remember some while back, when I first heard about about Fa’afafines in Samoa, men who had been raised as girls and later hearing this kind of “fluidity” was not unusual in some societies, especially ones that had had limited no contact with missionaries, or European ways, or had rejected them.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xvkCa63Js)
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@ Kiwi, King
The issue is probably that any discussion of this kind will assumptions, be they stated or implied, about human nature and biology just lurking beneath the surface. I doubt if I am alone in the image I have of the caveman in my head: he clubs “his” woman over the head and drags her around by the hair, and he does this because he is “stronger” and naturally, of course, more aggressive …!
Kiwi, I am sure about your women are weighed-down by pregnancy and because men control the food chain, dominance can be exerted.
How would this apply to elders, who could not long hunt and forage?
Their authority and experience was valued despite that, wasn’t it?
Your theory seems to imply a monogamous pairing in a nuclear family set up, somehow, and I don’t believe very early societies were organized in this way.
If early humans lived in family groups, children were the responsibility of the group, and, it seems, the reproductive capacity of women was not only precious, but revered.
Another thing I am not sure about is the food supply. Weren’t many of these early bands of humans initially nomadic and sustained themselves by consuming a variety of foods, some vegetable, sometimes fish, sometimes flesh? We humans are omnivores, and sustain ourselves on fruits as well as red meat, so a group would forage as it ate. It was later that some human groups, family clans, or tribes, settled, grew food and were able to store it. Even then, women could be pregnant, or carry a child whilst they planted. Women were central to food production. I don’t think the gender division of work necessarily had different status between the sexes.
The scenario you seem to paint came later with social organization, notions of ownership and inheritance, as well as ideas about monogamy. Even then, some societies were organized matrilineally.
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@ Kiwi, King
The issue is probably that any discussion of this kind will be grounded in assumptions, be they stated or implied, about human nature and biology just lurking beneath the surface. I doubt if I am alone in the image I have of the caveman in my head: he clubs “his” woman over the head and drags her around by the hair, and he does this because he is “stronger” and naturally, of course, more aggressive …!
Kiwi, I am sure about your theory that women are weighed-down by pregnancy and because men control the food chain, male dominance can be exerted.
How would this apply to elders, who could not long hunt and forage?
Their authority and experience was valued despite that, wasn’t it?
Your theory seems to imply a monogamous pairing in a nuclear family set up, somehow, and I don’t believe very early societies were organized in this way.
If early humans lived in family groups, children were the responsibility of the group, and, it seems, the reproductive capacity of women was not only precious, but revered.
Another thing I am not sure about is the food supply. Weren’t many of these early bands of humans initially nomadic and sustained themselves by consuming a variety of foods, some vegetable, sometimes fish, sometimes flesh? We humans are omnivores, and sustain ourselves on fruits as well as red meat, so a group would forage as it ate. It was later that some human groups, family clans, or tribes, settled, grew food and were able to store it. Even then, women could be pregnant, or carry a child whilst they planted. Women were central to food production. I don’t think the gender division of work necessarily had different status between the sexes.
The scenario you seem to paint came later with social organization, notions of ownership and inheritance, as well as ideas about monogamy. Even then, some societies were organized matrilineally.
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@ Abagond, please delete this comment:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/#comment-209457
It has too many typos to make sense!
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@ Legion, you mean TEA?!
Said my bit and it’s moderation. I doubt if the blog keeper will approve of my practices, though…
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Cops acquitted after they murder a homeless man on camera. Here’s the reality: The state doesn’t uphold the rule of law. The state creates privileged classes that can engage in lawless violence with impunity.
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg9ASTy4t5Q&src_vid=cHS-y3-G1Vo&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_951385 )
His last words were “dad their killing me” dad .. dad
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King:
I agree with this statement and the others in your comment, but the supporting evidence that this is what the media portrays to overseas audiences is generally not provided as far as I can tell.
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Michael Jon Barker:
Hollywood tends towards a (US) “liberal bias”, which impacts how issues such as gender, race, and class are portrayed.
For a humorous take, see here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/23/30-rock-old-school-racism_n_549872.html
Kiwi:
Untrue and defamatory. Please cite where this was allegedly stated.
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Bulanik & Kiwi, I would agree that it’s biology AND sociology. They work together. Male dominance is not a biological imperative, it’s based on acting out of self interest and backed but by the biological “advantage.”
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Randy,
Keep trying, you’ll wear them down one day. Also, if you believe that you are always right, nothing anyone says will ever prove you wrong….in your own eyes. Have a good day.
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Lupita N’yongo was a vision of loveliness, she looked like a goddess in that red Ralph Lauren gown, beautiful smooth chocolate skin to accompany her short natural close cropped hair. That is black beauty.
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Stop it!! I’m a recovering N’yongo addict!!!!
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@ King: Good for you, I hope the whole world falls in love with her. She will be one of the new faces for Miu Miu. She is a fashion trend setter, so excited for her.
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Nooooo!! SHE’s MINE!!!! >:-0
I better take my suppression medication (one half hour of looking at Elle Covers)
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@ King: Yes Sir, that would be wise take your meds and go to bed now.
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I was somewhat crushed my husband in my head Idris Alba was with his pregnant baby mama. *SIGH*
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Haha!! Oh well… we can dream can’t we?
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@ King: Huge sighing and doing ugly Oprah cry.lol.
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I would rather know a lot about a few things , than know nothing and speak ignorance on a lot of things, like you Kiwi…it seems to me , i had to correct you just above about your misnotions on a subject that isnt jazz or communism..Brazil, another subject not very well known in these parts
Other people have levaled the criticisms of all I know is music, as Im steam rolling their weak arguments into the ground…not because Im so intelligent, but , because their arguments are so weak..
Legion said that , but his gushing over Noam Chomsky is embarassing to watch, Legion crutches off of Noam Chomsky to form his American foreign affairs policy opinions , if Chomsky stopped short, Legion would be bumping all upside his back…Legion said this because , having not lived in South America, he could never get as in depth look as I have…that doesnt mean someone living in South America would agree with me, but, they would still have to face the accumalated facts and realities I have discovered…
Interesting how its a detriment on this blog , to be knowledgable about Afro diasporic culture…Jazz is black American history…jazz is American history, you are ignorant of your own cultural history…big time, and you are proud of it…yet would chime in with Legion that all I speak about is communism and jazz…
I know a lot more about interracial relationships than you do…that is your obsecion…its eating you away inside, its consuming you, its stuck in your craw so deep you are practicly wretching on it…nothing about communism or jazz there..the fact is,.you are pretty pathetic and disgusting about your notions of interracial relationships
in truth, it seems all I get from you is stream of concious Kiwi, just taking anything from your rear end , and throwing it on the table as though that is just the truth and fact…
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@Kiwi,
Thanks. Feel free to use it again if necessary. Also, may I suggest that you come to me with any questions you have about the Scottish culture and bagpipe music. I do after all live in an area with a large population of people of Scottish descent and as a result have become the expert. And because I have listened to the music and associated with these people I am now smarter than all of you with regard to that particular subject. My next adventure is to go to Scotland and teach them about their culture. They will be honored by my gift to them. So, please bow down before me. I am also the most accepting person in the universe when it comes to interracial issues. Again, bow down before me.
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I learned about Robert smalls he was born a slave, became a ship captain, and sailed a confederate ship to freedom. He and the crewman received money for the ship. after the war he became a politician.The interesting part for me was that he purchased the home of his former slave master and moved in, and he allowed the former slave master’s elderly wife to move in to live out her final years.
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@Anne
ROFL
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Any sports fans here? Sadly my Giants never had a chance for the Super Bowl this season. I’ve now moved into Colin Kaepernick/49ers mode. Any predictions?
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Kiwi , what a condacsending flippant question , from a chump who is hung up on interracial sex so much , your going to wretch on it…you dont deserve an answer , you wouldnt understand it, and I dont have to prove squat to you , or this blog, except to know, I know how to take care of my families cultural needs better than you , or anyone on this blog…no , dont bow down, just kiss my rear end..along with any other chump who buys into your line of thinking
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…and , you are American, and dont even know your own culture , jazz is black American history , and , its American history..any American who takes any time immersing themselves in jazz or jazz history, will be learning about some of the highest leval of culture in our American experiance..one of the deep foundations of our building blocs , and , its also black American history , with incredible obstacles , racism , violence , dissmisal , burying , banning , and destruction to overcome .
But most of all , it will enrich your life, and expand you and your cultural horizons
That young drummer I brought in on Th black women I most admire thread , is about your age , but she is way ahead of you, immersing herself in Coltrane and. Wayne Shorter songs , by god, she doesnt think that music is too old to study and discover the genius of some great great American musician giants…
She went the extra mile , to enrich her life with culture, not wasting her time hung up on interracial sex, she cultualy challenged herself..Asian has nothing to do with it, ever hear of Akira Tana ?I doubt it..he is American..funny , the Europeans and Japonese , understand jazz is our American history and culture, they actualy produce good jazz players…most Americans dont even know , or want to know the depth of their own culture..
That girl was giving a concert as part of her docterate at a higher institute of learning…its not some garage jam …just to show , this music is being studied at the highest levals , and will be way into the future…even if they are teaching it wrong , and I have to reeducate these kids on the bandstand, they sure dont teach them the Afro diasporic roots and concepts,
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Just quote us some Chomsky, Legion…gush over him..
Anne , you really want to stick your nose in this and defend a chump hung up on interracial sex in 2014?
I mean seriously, what on this gods earth would make you or anyone on this blog, think they could take care of my wife and sons cultural needs better than me? I mean bring it, just put it on the table, and lets see if you have what it takes to handle the specific cultural needs of my wife and son, or , in actuality , you would end up driving them over a cliff..or what do you really know about the trajectory , the struggles and obstacles about Afro diasporic dance culture?What do you know about producing it , promoting it, booking it, documenting it, just plain knowing the struggles involved being able to support it?
Im addressing low leval questions, if my answers make you uncomfortable enough to mock me, maybe you need to step up your point..and let me break it down
Just the fact anyone would question it , and you chime in with a joke , shows how low leval that disscusion is
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The Iranian government believes America is controlled by a ‘tall white alien race’, the same race that help built Nazi Germany.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2014/01/13/iran-says-tall-white-space-aliens-control-america/
“Documents leaked by NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden conclusively prove that the United States has been ruled by a race of tall,white space aliens who also assisted the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s”
Further evidence that white people come from a different planet.
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Makes a change from little green men, I suppose.
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on Wed 15 Jan 2014 at 13:02:47B. R.
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Oh Legion, I did see what could only amount to a gushing love to Chomsky mash note on one of your blog comments on here, I mean, it was embarrasing, to say the least…i didnt say every subject you go to him, its your American policy take that crutches heavily on Chomsky
Now, lets see, Legion, Kiwi here is quoting you as saying me Im limeted to only jazz and communism…as though being knowledgable of an Afro diasporic culture is a detriment…that is a theme on here…ask anne (by the way Anne, you mocked me, id like to know a little bit of your background and what qualifies you mocking me, putting a chumpy anti interracial dolt in his place?unless you want to hide behind your computor screen and mock me, hey putting down interracial relationships is no joke to me, as well as dealing with petty stereyotypes about what white people in an interracial relationship are or arnt)
It seems to me , on this blog, i have extensive knowledge about
1. Brazil…im not saying im a scholarly expert, I just know more than most people on here…hey, brazil is one of the most important countries in the world
2. Afro diasporic culture..ok, falls under music “all you can talk about is music”, yet, the fundimental knowledge of the trajectory, struggles, aspects involved in executing those cultures,knowledge of the violent represions from various fontes, is not commented on here with any depth, yet , the majority of racism against Afro descendants , in this day and age in the usa, is cultural racism…something I know a lot about
3. the legacy of Hugo Chavez…sorry , just by default of living in South America, and following that trajectory, I know things you didnt
4. being a voice on here understanding that many times, im one of the few voices that can correct on here the phrase “only in America”
5. this something I dont want, I didnt ask for, I dont like it…but, when it comes to understanding the origins of anti interracial sex and how it plays out in the black American activist diolougue…it was just mind blowing the people on here who just have no idea…i lived through it…i know it personaly, and i followed the national diologue on it in real time
6. I know more about what it takes to raise a child to adulthood than many people on here
7. I know more about raising a mixed race child to adulthood than most people on here…yet actualy have to put up with creepy antiinterracial judgements and stereyotypes from people like Kiwi, and his personal life sex insecurities
for sure, 6 and 7 , i know more than you do about it
so, id say your original accuasation, that Kiwi has picked up on, doesnt hold water
im not pissed at you , legion…but man, give me a break, you are way off about me…and have been before…and admitted it…give it a rest
thanks for the back referances though…
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(Just one more comment thing before I go)
“Sociopaths are those who lie constantly to get their way. The lying is often goal-oriented and there is little to no concern shown for others’ feelings. Often sociopaths are charming and manipulative, and can be very self-centered.”
– See more at: http://www.bandbacktogether.com/compulsive-lying-resources/#sthash.mvIYKktI.dpuf
And I let us not forget thecfollowing Bible verse — Matthew 12:33 “…for the tree is known by its fruit.”
Bulanik, if you think that you aren’t a sociopath simply because you are not in prison or because you are not a fire breathing monster of some sort, you are very wrong. It is your behavior here (lying, acts of deception, frequent use of charm & manipulation, the lack of remorse or shame when caught in lies, going on the attack when caught in lies / acts of deception, automatic attempts to turn the tables on your accuser or victim) that marks you as a sociopath, and this is just a blog, if you’ve done all that stuff here, I’d be willing to bet 10 to 1 that you behave in a similar fashion in all situations where you have any degree of social interaction. And, while I don’t know you personally, I do know you by your fruit, and you, my dear, are a sociopath.
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Pay it forward, my dear lady, your intentions are truly saddening to behold.
Corinthians 13:4-8
___________________________________________________
You use psychiatric terms without understanding their meaning.
You are not a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. You cannot assess me.
You call me liar, thief, plagiarist…
Yet, you have never met me, never spoken to me, I am but a stranger in cyberspace.
What you think you know things “for a fact”, you do not.
I called you out, dear lady, for the unending digs and put downs, month after month, thread after thread. You want to make me your cyber punch-bag.
No, don’t. Perhaps, apply your Bible learning to yourself?
May I ask you again: move on and leave me peace.
_________________________________________________
My best wishes to you.
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UPDATE:Further reports of America being run by a ‘tall White alien race’.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.568551
“The U.S. government is being controlled by a secret regime of aliens called “Tall Whites,” who were also instrumental in the rise of Nazi Germany, Iran’s semi-official news agency Fars reported on Sunday.
Citing a report based on documents leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden (and filed under the “Space” section of the website), Fars said the Russian Federal Security Services (FSB) has recently been “stunned” by these revelations, proving “an alien/extraterrestrial intelligence agenda is driving U.S. domestic and international policy, and has been doing so since at least 1945.”
The report also claims Obama is the current leader of these aliens:
“American presidents are not absent from this explosive report either – former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower is said to have met with the “Tall Whites” in 1954 to establish the secret regime currently ruling America, while U.S. President Barack Obama is said to be the incumbent leader of these clandestine puppet masters.
Even more disconcerting is a possible extraterrestrial power struggle which may be developing, as the article adds: “Most to be feared by Russian policy makers and authorities… is if those opposing the ‘Tall White’ ‘secret regime’ ruled over by Obama have themselves aligned with another alien-extraterrestrial power.”
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@ mosh. I don’t buy into conspiracy stuff. David Ickes says the royal family and others are lizard people and part.of the lizard illuminati. All these so called.lizard people could disappear and nothing would change because specific people aren’t the problem rather the system is the problem.
It’s not a conspiracy it’s a business model.
The Internet is awash with propaganda and distortion. Use reason, logic and empirical evidence to figure it out.
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@michael barker:
I don’t really believe in many conspiracy theories, and I think this is straight up crazy but hilarious, I mean it kinda explains a lot about white supremacy and the racial pyramid.
You or me may not believe this, but the Iranian government does and that’s what matters, cause they’re gonna get nukes and they will try to rid this planet of these ‘aliens’.
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administrivially speaking, you are commenting using fb/twitter/google+? what is that a wordpress thing? or is that a deriative from ads
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omg aliens reptilians base 63 map drawn in crayon; have a nice day here is some tin foil
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the cisgender article, i mean i kind of understood where abagond was going with it, but it didn’t seem to have the same impact as the ‘101’ guide that it was based off of? maybe because that had the format of some type of pamphlet you would see in the std clinic waiting for some test results? idk the article just felt a little flat, sorry dude
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@ Mosh
This may be a new and interesting and new development because we now have: Russia, Iran and the US NSA whistle blower Edward Snowden saying and alleging the same thing. Its called a semi-official exposure which has, for some reason, unsurprisingly, has not been picked up by the mainstream media…Though it did appear in the Washington Post…
But it is not information that could not be obtained by conducting your own serious and detailed research over the internet. Which I personally have done for some years now:
http://wordpress.kwamla.com/?p=156#comment-718
What I wonder here is has anyone who comments regularly in Abagonds’ forum (even Abagond himself) on racism or white supremacy issues considered the possible implications if the information about Tall whites, the Nazis and US domestic and foreign policy is true?
What does it say about the enormous strides made in Western technological development over the years from 1945 compared to the abysmal, poor and continuous inability to address basic social, political and economic issues? Like Freedom,Equality and Justice….
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Kwamla,
“What I wonder here is has anyone who comments regularly in Abagonds’ forum (even Abagond himself) on racism or white supremacy issues considered the possible implications if the information about Tall whites, the Nazis and US domestic and foreign policy is true?”
I have considered the possible implications …. Anything is possible!
“What does it say about the enormous strides made in Western technological development over the years from 1945 compared to the abysmal, poor and continuous inability to address basic social, political and economic issues? Like Freedom,Equality and Justice….”
It says to me that profit, control, hegemony and mega wealth are the main objectives of this elite group of conscience lacking creepazoids clothed in (and empowered by) whiteness. They would attempt to literally destroy this planet in order to realize their universal goal – complete and utter dominion and subjugation over all people within their grasp.
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Matari,
All of what you’ve said here I believe is true. But there are some other implications to consider…
Much of the discussion that takes place here and elsewhere in societies pre-occupied and focused on inequalities and injustices would need to be expanded. After all who really is responsible for running or ruining the planet?
Is it these minority elite white males or their taller masters?
To use a cruder analogy…Much of the discussion here focuses on the “Monkey” when really it should be far more concentrated on the “Organ Grinder” This is where the seemingly true power lies!
It also places the onus of responsibility on the white masses of who they wish to be controlled or governed by?. Themselves or the nefarious agenda of some off world non-human entities?
And what would the rest of the vast Cosmic community think or do about this?
Such considerations go far beyond simply trying to apportion blame or responsibility to the insignificant monkey…
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MLK holiday is near and there is some foolishness with some fliers and some mention of twerking with Dr. King’s image on the fliers. That is so shameful. Is nothing sacred? Elders have dropped the ball in teaching our youth better.
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Dang mary I did not know that I googled it and smh. my generation wow just wow. they need their arse whooped mlk had a dream and it wasn’t for ppl to be promoting twerk parties. Those fliers have him looking like a rapper, and speaking of craziness and people needing to take the wheel of their childrens lives did u see the mess about people making a religion about yezus aka kanye west. smh.
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@mstoogoodYyall: That craziness about making a religion about that fool Kanye West, people have lost their minds. Ignorance is rampant in our society.
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@mstoogood4yall: That is probably a publicity stunt planted by Kanye. He is such a media wh0re.
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I was listening to one of the news media outlets and they were doing a story about if one is stopped by the cops they could start going through your cell phones. That sounds like unreasonable search and seizure. This sounds like George Orwell. Next thing you know they will start wanting to really have the thought police. We are not that far from George Orwell with the advance of technology.
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@ mary
going through people’s phones huh? what are the police becoming some jealous girlfriend/boyfriend. What are they going to do question ppl for having someone’s name in their phone that may match a suspects name.
officer: “give me ur phone.” citizen:” ok just don’t shoot” officer: *scrolls through contacts and messages. Officer” hmm so I see here u have Jeffrey under ur contacts, so I will ask u where were u on friday night?” citizen” I was out with friends at the movies, um may I ask why u are asking me this?” Officer: “u may be an accomplice to murder as Jeffrey is the name of a man that is a suspect in a robbery/murder.” citizen” but that is not the Jeffrey I know what is the last name of the man u are looking for?” officer” I ask the questions around here so u tell me ur friend’s last name. citizen” um I think it is Johnson or something.” officer” well I will have to take u in for questioning” citizen ” but why I didn’t do anything” officer” doesn’t matter u know a man named Jeffrey and aren’t sure what his last name is besides the murder suspect could be using an alias so ur Jeffrey Johnson could be our murder suspect Jeffrey.”
at the police station
officer ” so where were u Friday night?” citizen” I was with my friends at the movies” officer: “then who is Tyson my boo? he was texting u to come over and u said i’m on my way” citizen: “um yeah that is my bf I went to his apartment after the movie.” officer” so now u remember well why didn’t u tell me that before, I think u are lying u probably didn’t go to a movie. citizen” I told u I went to the movies then I went to my bf’s home” officer” no u told me u went to the movies then when I confronted u with ur lie u said ur bf’s apartment so I will ask u this what did u do over there at ur bfs apartment?” citizen” um… we hung out”
officer” u are avoiding the question u see I think u and ur bf joined up with Jeffrey and committed a robbery or scenario number 2 ur boyfriend is Jeffrey.” citizen” what ?!I don’t know what u are talking about Jeffrey is a friend not my man and he’s gay so nothing goin on there and Jeffrey was at the movies with us that night.” officer : “aha so u admit u were with Jeffrey on the night of this murder robbery.” citizen” no wait I was with the good loving kind Jeffrey not the monster u said did this” officer ” yeah likely story when we bring Jeffrey and ur little boyfriend in they wil flip on u so u better sign this confession now and save ur arse.” citizen ” but I didn’t do anything” officer” then sign it if u didn’t do anything I know u didn’t but do u think everybody else will believe u.” citizen” ok i’ll sign”
and see this is what this mess can turn into.
so always ask for a lawyer ppl.
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@mary burell
Which George Orwell book are you referencing? I can not remember the name but I think I wanted to read it.
Also the twerk/MLK day thing. I think that was poor planning. I get parties on holidays but this is not one of them. It is a day of remembrance for MLK and honoring him as his b-day is observed. Guess the social media age still makes some events more important than others.
@Kiwi
I think some of the steroetyping is also due to Hollywood and its romance film exports. It frames things like it is reality and can leave the wrong impression for people with limited exposure to the people the actors portray. Maybe people need more exposure to one another through meaningful dialouge. So many stereotypes within and outside nations.
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@SweetLife89: 1984, that George Orwell book.
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@SweetLife89
“Maybe people need more exposure to one another through meaningful dialouge.”—More exposure and meaningful dialouge goes a long way. It helps to put aside fears and misunderstandings that many Hollywood films present.
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Kiwi , I dont think you have any way of knowing how Asian women with white men really feel. You dont even know 1 percent of the Asian women with white men, and you are only making your judgements by your anecdotal experiances and internet blogging referances, and , Im convinced the internet is one of the falsest representaions of what is happening and how people really feel…
Because you are obcessed with Asian women with white men, that is what you focus on , instead of the huge amount of Asian women, or any kind of women who are available to you , if you really want to pursue a woman.
Its really strange to see this obcession with interracial sex these days , in 2014
Statistics? My gosh, I laugh at statistics and stereytypes. Can you imagine what kind of statistics and stereytypes and just plain totaly against the grain in society it was like in the late 60’s, when I dated black women, and married a black woman in the early 70’s? I mean I am perplexed by your obcession about it … you hardly know any Asian women with white men , in relationship to the numbers out there, so you are steryotyping and speculating and pegging people you dont know , on a grandiose leval. And have only conversed with how many Asian women about it? 40? 100? 200? all these numbers are just grains of sand compared to the numbers of Asian women with white men..
And , you sure are ignoring a huge number of Asian women , available and looking exactly for someone like you…
Its like you are setting up a big rationalisation about why its so hard for you to hook up with an Asian woman…I mean, dont worry about other Asian men, and trying to be their leader…worry about Kiwi for now…that is who you speak for, Kiwi…just let go of the statistics, the steryotypes, the hype, the psych , the bs, and just go out in the world and deal with what is good for Kiwi, go after what Kiwi wants…there are a huge amount of women that are meant to hook up with you, all you have to do is find them…vice versca..all that statsitic loopydoop, doesnt mean one thing in your real life
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Another snow storm. It is falling so hard now. Looks like lots of reading this weekend and ty for telling the book title mary.
@B.R. and @Kiwi
Did this conversation between you two start here or in a different thread? I do apologize for budding (sp?) in. I need to realize that not all conversations are open to everyone.
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@ SweetLife89: You are welcome.
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Ow kiwi my ears wtf kind of music vid was that. hmm an Asian woman objectifying Asian men, oook smh. but that study they did showing white women will be with a man of color more likely if he makes more money hmm tell me something I don’t know.
And what kind of nasty freaky app is that to blow up the skirt of an Asian woman. wow, just when I thought apps couldn’t get any dumber they go and surprise me.
Let me put this disclaimer out there in caps I AM NOT SAYING ALL INTERRACIAL IS LIKE THIS ,IF UR RELATIONSHIP IS NOT LIKE THIS I AM NOT TALKING TO U.
imo the people that do get with whites AND they have the mindset of white is right are better off going, because these will be the same ones that if they do date a person of their race they will be verbally abusive to them and will constantly compare them to whites. These people with that mindset feel that their race is inferior whether they realize it or not, self hate is a mofo. these are the people that are ashamed of their ancestors and will make fun of their race and say comments like i’m not *insert race* or I’ve never been to *insert continent * so I am not that, idc if my ancestors came from there.
I would rather be alone than be with someone with someone that has alot of self hate.
This is why people should ignore these people they are attention seekers because if they are so happy as they love to claim they wouldn’t be putting down the opposite gender of their race, misery loves company so obviously they are not happy as people in happy, healthy relationships don’t have time for petty stuff like that.
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@Kwamla
Interestingly, there is a PoC project underway, a Sci-Fi project, that,imo, attempts to plant seeds of AWARENESS amongst the public. Read the synopsis about this fundraising venture on the following page.
http://igg.me/at/earthsquadron
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yeah i hear ya kiwi we all deal with self hate but to varying degrees, mine was not liking my nose when i was younger as well as my skin tone. but as i got older i became more comfortable and it is sad to see and hear family members say certain things that are kind of self hatish.
Nobody is born to hate themselves or anybody else for that matter it is a learned behavior. so just like racist whites are taught to hate poc, poc are taught to hate ourselves as well. Just like we are taught how to eat certain foods we are taught how to dislike certain features.
They keep doing studies showing how people of certain races or people with certain features or skin tones are discriminated against, so it leads people to believe something is wrong with them and not that something is wrong with the people that think that way. People like this are like rape victims blaming themselves and thinking if i wouldn’t have been born like this everything would be ok so instead of attacking and pointing at racism/white supremacy they internalize it as their fault.
I think a lot of whites won’t acknowledge white privilege and they really won’t acknowledge that their dating selection is a part of that privilege. White males are everywhere in the media, they are the heroes, the kings, the princes, the good character in most movies, while men of color are the villain, gangster, abuser, etc if they can’t see how those images influence people they are either lying because they don’t want to admit they may have something that others would’ve had to put in way more work to get or they are completely lost.
for poc it is not by simply existing that we get things but by having to put in a lot more work to get some of what whites have. and so many poc try to make up for their color and features by flashing money, cars, clothes, etc, or by dating whites only. They think they can be equal by buying their way into equality, dating whites, living in a certain neighborhood etc. but equality is something that is not guaranteed and something that cannot be gained by asking, dating, living with whites. there is a man here in tx that was murdered but they said suicide and he was married to a white woman and lived in a small white town, so no amount of assimilating will prevent people from killing u or hating u because of the way u were born.
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Haven’t read through all the comments over the last week, but @Jefe, Kiwi, King, Bulanik, misstoogood regarding the convos on Asian assimilation and the origins of patriarchy . . . fascinating dialogue.
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Kiwi ,dont play that “you are from a differant generation” crap with me..the fact Ive been in two interracial mairedges and one long term, raising a child into adulthood, means I have a lot more insight than your naive rambling gives me credit for…
You know, the media is like santa claus and the tooth fairy, eventualy you realise its all a sham and hype and one big comercial, owned by a small amount of people putting their slant on everything, and for sale for who can pay . Its never really going to give you any satisfaction and tell your or my story…anyone who buys into it is going to be brainwashed…only they can eventualy discover for themselves, as nothing you could say now would change them..
You are too hung up on Asian women with white men, it consumes you…you keep wanting to tie it in with an intellectualised political agenda , when your personal sex choices have nothing to do with your political situation as an Asian male. You could eliminate all Asian women and your political situation facing a white racist society would not change one iota…you are rationalising a political situation into your personal sexlife frustrations
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…eliminate all Asian women with white males and your political situation as an Asian male will be the same
This is about Kiwi…not the reality of Asian women with white males, which is far too great a number for you to know ..you just stereytype them and peg them with mostly your uncle and aunt as your example
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I came across this article in PDF that looks at early white supremacy in America and what laid the ground work for Jim Crow laws. Quoted in part.
Click to access retrospectives.pdf
“Retrospectives Eugenics and Economics in the Progressive Era”
Thomas C. Leonard
“During the second half of the Progressive Era, beginning roughly in 1908, progressive economists and their reform allies achieved many statutory victories, including state laws that regulated working conditions, banned child labor, instituted mothers’ pensions,” capped working hours and, the sine qua non, fixed minimum wages.”
In using eugenics to justify exclusionary immigration legislation,
the race-suicide theorists offered a model to economists advocating labor reforms, notably those affiliated with the American Association for Labor Legislation, the organization of academic economists that Orloff and Skocpol (1984, p. 726) call the “leading association of U.S. social reform advocates in the Progressive Era.”
Progressive economists, like their neoclassical critics, believed that binding
minimum wages would cause job losses. However, the progressive economists also believed that the job loss induced by minimum wages was a social benefit, as it performed the eugenic service ridding the labor force of the “unemployable.”
Sidney and Beatrice Webb (1897 [1920], p. 785) put it plainly: “With regard to
certain sections of the population [the “unemployable”], this unemployment is not a mark of social disease, but actually of social health.” “Of all ways of dealing with these unfortunate parasites,” Sidney Webb (1912, p. 992) opined in the Journal of Political Economy, “the most ruinous to the community is to allow them to unrestrainedly compete as wage earners.” A minimum wage was seen to operate eugenically through two channels: by deterring prospective immigrants (Henderson, 1900) and also by removing from employment the “unemployable,” who, thus identified, could be, for example, segregated in rural communities or sterilized.
(50,000 people were sterilized in the U.S.)
“Columbia’s Henry Rogers Seager, a leading progressive economist who served as president of the AEA in 1922, provides an example. Worthy wage-earners, Seage (1913a, p. 12) argued, need protection from the “wearing competition of the casual worker and the drifter” and from the other “unemployable” who unfairly drag down the wages of more deserving workers (1913b, pp. 82–83). The minimum wage protects deserving workers from the competition of the unfit by making it illegal to work for less. Seager (1913a, p. 9) wrote: “The operation of the minimum wage requirement would merely extend the definition of defectives to embrace all individuals, who even after having received special training, remain incapable of adequate self-support.” Seager (p. 10) made clear what should happen to those
who, even after remedial training, could not earn the legal minimum: “If we are to maintain a race that is to be made of up of capable, efficient and independent individuals and family groups we must courageously cut off lines of heredity that have been proved to be undesirable by isolation or sterilization . . . .”
For progressives, a legal minimum wage had the useful property of sorting the unfit, who would lose their jobs, from the deserving workers, who would retain their jobs. Royal Meeker, a Princeton economist who served as Woodrow Wilson’s U.S. Commissioner of Labor, opposed a proposal to subsidize the wages of poor workers for this reason. Meeker preferred a wage floor because it would disemploy unfit workers and thereby enable their culling from the work force. “It is much better to enact a minimum-wage law even if it deprives these unfortunates of work,” argued Meeker (1910, p. 554). “Better that the state should support the inefficient wholly and prevent the multiplication of the breed than subsidize incompetence and unthrift, enabling them to bring forth more of their kind.” A. B. Wolfe (1917,
p. 278), an American progressive economist who would later become president of the AEA in 1943, also argued for the eugenic virtues of removing from employment those who “are a burden on society.”
In his Races and Immigrants, the University of Wisconsin economist and social reformer John R. Commons argued that wage competition not only lowers wages, it also selects for the unfit races. “The competition has no respect for the superior races,” said Commons (1907, p. 151), “the race with lowest necessities displaces others.” Because race rather than productivity determined living standards, Common could populate his low-wage-races category with the industrious and lazy alike. African Americans were, for Commons (p. 136), “indolent and fickle,” which explained why, Commons argued, slavery was required: “The negro could not possibly have found a place in American industry had he come as a free man . . .”
“It was a scholarly fashion, circa 1890, to declare the U.S. frontier “closed” and to sound a Malthusian alarm about excess American population growth. But the professional economists who wrote on immigration increasingly emphasized not the quantity of immigrants, but their quality. “If we could leave out of account the question of race and eugenics,” Irving Fisher (1921, pp. 226–227) said in his presidential address to the Eugenics Research Association, “I should, as an econo- mist, be inclined to the view that unrestricted immigration . . . is economically advantageous to the country as a whole….”But ,cautioned Fisher, “the core of the problem of immigration is . . . one of race and eugenics,” the problem of the Anglo-Saxon racial stock being overwhelmed by racially inferior “defectives, delinquents and dependents.”
“Fear and dislike of immigrants certainly were not new in the Progressive Era. But leading professional economists were among the first to provide scientific respectability for immigration restriction on racial grounds.2 They justified race- based immigration restriction as a remedy for “race suicide,” a Progressive Era term for the process by which racially superior stock (“natives”) is outbred by a more prolific, but racially inferior stock (immigrants). ”
“The term “race suicide” is often attributed to Edward A. Ross (1901a, p. 88), who believed that “the higher race quietly and unmurmuringly eliminates itself rather than endure individually the bitter competition it has failed to ward off by collective action.” Ross was no outlier. He was a founding member of the American Economic Association, a pioneering sociologist and a leading public intellectual who boasted that his books sold in the hundreds of thousands.3 Ross’s coinage gained enough currency to be used by Theodore Roosevelt (1907, p. 550), who called race suicide the “greatest problem of civilization,” and regularly returned to the theme of “the elimination instead of the survival of the fittest.” In that same year, more than 40 years after the American Civil War, Ross (1907, p. 715) wrote: “The theory that races are virtually equal in capacity leads to such monumental follies as lining the valleys of the South with the bones of half a million picked whites in order to improve the conditions of four million unpicked blacks.”
“For these progressives, race determined the standard of living, and the standard of living determined the wage. Thus were immigration restriction and labor legislation, especially minimum wages, justified for their eugenic effects. Invidious distinction, whether founded on the putatively greater fertility of the unfit, or upon their putatively greater predisposition to low wages, lay at the heart of the reforms we today see as the Progressive Era.”
Today we have race realists who think in the same way. I think what this article shows is how deeply entrenched racism is in America and how it’s history still effects people today.
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And dont peg me as not being able to understand things…im an immigrant ,like your mother and father…yeah, a brain drain , since there was a huge void when i left the states that has never quite been filled…
i arrived pretty much knowing no one, i bet your mother and father had a network to fall in on, for sure your aunts hooked up over there…
i have faced insults, put downs,exclusions , humiliations , discriminations , big time in my work where i live, where im over qualified ,white privaledge, which I know I have, is relative when Im from a country many people have bias about down here.
and you are all too willing to peg me, like I could have no understanding of colorisation, when I deal withit on a regular basis, helping my wife with her struggle…you insult my intelligence
and, if you want to play some new age psyche agenda about interracial sex in 2014, and try to take it into some political agenda that isnt meant for personal sex life desicians , that is up to you, but, thank gosh for my experiance to be able to tell you its a load of crap…i love experiance
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that statement was made to Kiwi
and you keep saying white people or men feel this way and that way about Asian men, I havent heard white men talk about Asian men that way, Im sure where you are it happens, but, I have never really ever heard white men break down Asian men like that..ever
Having colorisation issues is not the same as having interracial sex…a lot more people can have variations of colorisation and never deal with interracial sex
just pegging any Asian women with a white man as with him because of colorisation reasons , is preposterous, you dont even know a fraction of Asian women in interracial sex relationships
there are many people in interracial relationships who arnt affected by colorisation. None of the black women, and I mean none that I have been with, put down black men . That doesnt mean there arnt black women who have colorisation issues who want to marry outside their race…but, I dont trust you or anyone on here to be the judge or jury or pshyciatrist to make those desicians and final analysis…as a matter of fact, I find it ridiculous you or anyone could think they can peg people they dont know
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BR,
“I find it ridiculous you or anyone could think they can peg people they dont know”
_ _ _
You might want to stick to your argument with Kiwi.
As I have no idea as to your behavior in regards to interracial relationships, I cannot “peg” you as being one way or the other, but I most certainly can and most definitely will judge treacherous and deceitful BEHAVIOR, especially when I am one of its targets. As well, you do not know me nor do you know anything about ME or my ability to make judgment based on behaviors I’ve witnessed over a 3 year period. It works both ways.
I can understand that you feel you are being judged simply because of the type of relationship you are in, and not by your BEHAVIOR within it; that is something no one who isn’t privy to your IR relationships can know anything about. What you are dealing with here is a whole other ball of wax from what I have dealt with (including being called a stalker, right along with you, if you now want to defend the person who called you that, you might as well be up front about it).
Kindly make your point without resorting to stepping on my toes. Your defense of your right to engage in IRR has absolutely nothing to do with any comment I’ve written concerning intentional copy & paste plagiarism / acts of deception and outright lies, some of which were told on me.
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@Michael Jon Barker
Thank you! I really appreciate the knowledge you bring.
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If anyone here prefers that label the behavior rather than the person, well, that’s fine too:
Compulsive lying; frequent self-aggrandizement; the masterful use of charm and manipulation to get one’s way and to gather a flock of sycophants who will continue as followers, despite evidence of leader’s deceptiveness and treachery; turns the tables on the accuser, when caught; refers to accuser as a spy (or, in this case, a stalker); accuses admirers of not having enough faith; does not exhibit guilt or remorse, does not offer apologies when caught in deception or treachery; becomes enraged rather than embarrased when caught in deception; thinks everyone is just as deceptive and manipulative or, if not, then they fools; goes right back to manipulative & deceptive behavior once the coast seems clear et cetera.
All the above are sociopathic behaviors.
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*does not exhibit guilt, SHAME or remorse*
*becomes enraged rather than embarrased when caught in deception; thinks everyone is just as deceptive and manipulative or, if not, then they ARE fools*
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Pay it Forward , you can rest asured I wasnt reffering to you…Im at odds with aspects of this blog now…Im fighting my own battles , its hard for me to unite with people in their battles now, I can only tell you , im saving my bristling defences and head hunting for personal attacks.You and me have hardly been allies , only strangly linked together . So , not really wanting to get involved in your conflict now, I can say , I understand, and tell you from experiance , dont expect sympathy from this blog..everything you say, do it for you, instead of trying to have blog agreement …dont wait for anyone to defend you in this case..it wont be forth coming, so speak from your gut, for you, and Im sure you are already perceiving this….
And that was a strange left feild kick you gave me there
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Kiwi, dont understand your points ? You just tried to steryotype me like I beleive in the model minority clichê , ive never ever indulged in it , ever
You actualy tried to call me anti Asian male, bring one post in here where Im anti Asian male..bring one in…that makes you a muck raking liar
You have no idea what is involved in a long term interracial relationship, but you run off at the mouth about the colorisation you steryotype Asian women with white men having , and psycho analise people you dont even know
And you super impose your disgruntled personal life dating frustrations into valid larger discrimination against Asian realities
Spending warped amounts of time on anti interracial drek , weakons your political agenda, its a weak agenda, eliminate all Asian women with white men and racism will still be the same…it has no bearing on the real important aspects, including your personal dating problems, you still would have to get the bravery to ask a woman out
You lack a lot of credibility with me , with your clichêd dogmad stereotypes , lame assumtions of aspects of my interracial relationships,and your naive pegging of my take on the cold war…ready to fly off the handle to call me racist, when you are making up a charactor in your mind who isnt me at all
You got problems
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@ Michael Jon Barker
On the Cisgender thread you said:
When asked for a political label I generally, and loosely, identify as anarchist-communist. On the subject of property ownership, my own inclination is to accept the ownership of personal property (personal possessions and things which one uses frequently etc) but to reject ownership of private property (a second house, land that I do not cultivate, a beach etc).
Of course, the non-coercion principle ties my hands, as it does those of most anarchists, when it comes to tackling the problem of people who will not give up their accumulated property. LOL.
Even revolution is coercion.
Any thoughts on the property thing, or on how we establish significant anarchist communities without coercion when the rich already think they own all the land and will never voluntarily relinquish it?
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Its really interesting , this use of colorisation as some excuse to rail against interracial sex . People think they have detergent box doctorates on psycho analysis about judging other peoples degree of colorisation.
While the source for the feelings of colorisation come from the outside , the depth and degree that people struggle with it , is an individual matter
It is an internal matter , that only each individual can look in the mirror, and judge for themselves, where they are individualy at with it and how it affects them and what they personaly intend to do about it
Yet people are so quick , to take their personal situation, and where they are at with it , and superimpose their judgements on to people they dont even know
People have no idea how every Asian female with a white male feels , what their reasons or motivations were…if people make superficial choices in relationships, it will haunt them , to be sure, why is anyone worried about someone elses personal sex desicians
Personal sex life desicians between consenting adults doesnt play out well in political agendas, its too personal a choice to have dogmas and stereotypes define it…I question the true personal meaning behind people with interracial sex hang ups in 2014
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Buddhuu, its pretty sick the way the self identified anarchists are rioting down in brazil now, screaming their anti capatalist phrases , when the people in power are the workers party…their hesds are up their rear ends
Quite frankly , I detest marxism and anarchists , there is absolutly nothing in their agenda or literature that I trust as far as I could throw a bus, and marxism was responsable for more deaths in my lifetime , than anything else, with communist states repressing people on an unprescedenting scale
The manifest sais anyone starting their own business is burgoise, and is a threat to the state…!!?? I mean that sounds utterly absurd in retrospect, yet, these anarchists down here actualy use these terms, how can you stand the dogmad stink stench of their rhetoric? Listening to that alone is enough to make a person wretch and run the other way..
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Kiwi
I think it’s really pathetic how East Asian women marry white men, and then put their own men down, fortunately it is hasn’t spread to South and West Asia, but perhaps in the future South Asian/West Asian women will be more like East Asian women, because of the propaganda by the western media, depicting men from this part of the world as violent and misogynistic and white men as the opposite.
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Thanks for the link Matari!
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Show me the propaganda…as a person who watches western media, id like to see the example of the depiction of east Asian men as violent and misogynistic
My perception is the western medias big problem with east Asian men , is lack of a depiction in the first place…they dont really depict east Asian men in real stories about them
By the way, Mosh, your depiction of your Pakistan , on the gratuitisObama pictures was misleading and naive, and I proved it bringing in in depth information, making you look naive
Yet , after bringing in factual information on it , like factual information on Hugo Chavez, the truth about Mão, and other insights I have gained from my own leaving the states and going to a country struggling with its battle with marxism,after discussing these things, which have nothing to do with racism, Abagond blatently describes my comments as those of a white man
That is why Im at odds with this blog, my take on American international policies , just because I dont agree with Abagond, at that moment, my comments and points become described as those of a white man, when race had nothing to do with the subject…if its racial issues ,I accept being identified as white, but issues that arnt racial , and I bring in facts and links, not fox news drek, and get dissmissed as comments of a white man ?
I can fight anti interracial drek until the cows come home, but to just lable my comments those of a white man when the subject doesnt have anything to do with racial issues is my wake up call to distance myself from this kind of thinking
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No offense intended, BR, and you are correct in stating that we have not in any way ever been blog buddies despite accusations to the contrary (which never made any sense, as up until now there has never been more than a couple of short sentences said between us). I’m pretty much a lone wolf here and that’s fine. 🙂
As to seeking the assistance of other commenters in fighting my battles, it is kind of strange after all this time that anyone might think that the case. This, after all, seems to be an alternate universe where deception is okay when carried out by a charmer (no, BR, I’m not including you in this kind of mind-set), and where the uncovering of deception is shady and suspect when performed by someone who is blunt but honest. I learned that life lesson in the last year on this blog, and sadly I am no naive child.
I totally get it though. As lots of folks know that they aren’t all that honest themselves, and that’s why whistleblowers tends to get the side eye.
My reason for that previous comment to you, though, was because of my own use of the word “pegged”, which was months ago and in reference to someone else. So when you mentioned it as well, I figured you were alluding to my use of it, and the context in which I’ve used it….
My apologies for the misunderstanding.
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Check out this satire article I found on how blacks can end racism. I laughed so hard. Though you guys and Abagond would get a kick out of it. http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2013/07/15-things-black-people-must-do-in-order-to-end-racism/
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interesting… couple things.
i was really into anarchism, i would say that, as a philosophy, not as a practice, until the olympic park bombing. That is anarchy. And I laugh at the youngin’s out their with their ‘guy fawlkes’ masks on, yea baby, you’ll be an anarchist until the crew from down the way comes and steps over your corpse, that’s anarcy, truly misguided.
secondly, idk but that word itself ‘cisgender’ always makes me think of cisalpine and transalpine gaul, just popping out of the latin lessons for some reason! I guess you don’t really see the prefix- “cis” very often, cisalpine gaul is south of the alps, ie on the same side as the roman empire…
last but certainly not least, i’m supposed to write a feature about white skin privilege, for the newsletter, i might have a condensed version for the newsletter and expand it, it’s really coming down to only a few things i can get done before i leave to go meet my girl in africa, by late april, that is besides saving enough damn money to get out there
have a great day!
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and that really came up because i was driving my pos car and i got lighted up the other day, and i had some administrative issues that could have been you know generateing some money for the city if they were duly noted; they were not. I saw the same cop (boricua) pulling over a black guy a few blocks away, and he was out there lecturing this dude, waving his papers around in the guy’s face, backup was pulling up, who knows what the real story is with that one, but, you know i did feel some type of way about writing about it, which i explored with my friend and co-writer, about guilt or whatnot, you know all the things we talk about here, and after getting outed on the transgender thread i guess that is of limited ‘stress’ or threat to write about something i’ve acknowledged multiple times, white skin privilege. anyway…
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B.R
“Show me the propaganda…as a person who watches western media, id like to see the example of the depiction of east Asian men as violent and misogynistic”
I was talking about the western media’s depiction of South Asian and West Asian men, they depict us as blood-thirsty women-hating misogynists, which is incorrect.
“My perception is the western medias big problem with east Asian men , is lack of a depiction in the first place…they dont really depict east Asian men in real stories about them”
That is true, the western media barely depicts East Asian men, but when they do it’s usually stereotypical, like they show the nerdy East Asian guy or if it’s a positive one, it’s usually a Karate/Kung fu master.
“By the way, Mosh, your depiction of your Pakistan , on the gratuitisObama pictures was misleading and naive, and I proved it bringing in in depth information, making you look naive”
How was it misleading and naive?What I stated was the inconvenient truth, but jingoists would never want to accept the truth, and the comments I posted on the Obama pictures, weren’t uncalled for or irrelevant.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/06/gratuitous-obama-picture-10/
If you scroll down to the bottom of that post by Abagond, you would see that he referenced this post of his:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/obama-cries-for-white-children/
So even Abagond thought of the kids Obama(indirectly) had killed with his drones.
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i have to buy 12 cows or something for her family, but not real cows? not sure, lobola, how nice,
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@B.R.
I get tired of people who equate anarchism with rioting or bombing. If that is your understanding of what anarchist-communism or anarchist-syndicalism are about then you have no understanding and have simply swallowed the propaganda.
Just because a person looting a TV set or a person with a bomb call themselves anarchists, and because mainstream media promotes those images, you accept it?
As for Marxism, what has Marxism got to do with anarchism? Marxism is a failed exercise with too much emphasis on economics and too little on social structure and justice. Marxism, and perversions of it, gave us a series of revolutions that just installed new corrupt elites and new oppressive regimes. Anarchism is entirely opposed to oppression or coercion of any kind, and anrchist-communist principles make the concept of political corruption for personal gain pretty much obsolete.
Don’t talk to me about Marxism: it is irrelevant and doesn’t interest me.
If you want to know about anarchism then examine the ideas of positive-thinkers like Petr Kropotkin, instead of getting your “understanding” of poitical theory from tabloids and right wing media.
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@buddhuu if you ‘fast forward’ to an anarchist environment, 20 years past the end of hegemony, let’s say, i don’t understand how you can say that it will be anything else than a feudalistic ‘warlord’ type society cf mogadishu, picking over the skeleton of society
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Not in my book Fiamma Blu…
i love how your commentary offers a breath of fresh air to any discussion
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This may seem a bit of a stretch, but i am betting that South and West Asian women are considered too Brown for many white men seeking to marry Asian women.
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@Matari:
I donated to this project as I received an email from the Black Science Fiction Society, for which I am a member:
http://blacksciencefictionsociety.com/
You can donate to the movie via this site, which also contains a synopsis:
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/earth-squadron-movie-project
Folks, put your money where your mouth is.
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@ Sharina, Thanks for the compliment, The information seemed relevant for this blog. I don’t myself see me being particularly knowledgeable but I do read a lot, apply critical thinking and form opinions based on what know today so my view are continually developing. This blog as a wealth of information within it and it’s posters contribute a lot of different view points.
@ Buddhuu
I’m not a traditional anarchist. Most of my thinking comes from Kevin Carson and the center for a stateless society. http://c4ss.org/
They are sort of a bridge between anarchist communism and anarchist capitalism.
He wrote “markets not capitalism”. The idea that markets need to be “freed”.
I also like Murray Rothbard (ancap) and Noam Chomsky a libertarian socialist. Their observations are good though I don’t agree with everything they write. My views aren’t set in stone and continue to develop and I think a good cross section of reading keeps one from being stuck in an intellectual bubble.
I also like Anthony Gregory from the Independent institute. http://www.independent.org/
“Life, liberty and property” comes from John Locke his natural law philosophy.I hold a very loose interpretation of that. At the time the common man didn’t have access to private property and that was what he getting at. I’m against land monopolies and believe local people should control natural resources ect. But I’m probably more open to land ownership then you are.
I am against Intellectual Property and patent law. I think that would go a long ways towards eliminating vertical corporate hierarchy’s and would help redistribute wealth more horizontally within society naturally through market forces.
I would like to keep the debate open but am limited on my comment time.
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@ cleonette
rofl that link is how a lot of people think racism is to end hmm I wonder if don lemon helped write that lmbao.
most of the things on that list especially the who can use the n word and why people call bet and other shows that are geared toward blacks are reverse racist. The funny thing is bet and most of the stuff targeting blacks are white owned. People complain about bet and blackpeoplemeet but again they are both white owned, I don’t understand why people feel the need to complain to us over this bs, take it up with the corporation. But I think a lot of people will not mess with the corporations so they attack everybody else, it’s like when they say oh the Mexicans are taking our jobs and do not look at that the corporations are giving it to them knowing they are not citizens.
I laugh seeing people trying to defend Madonna for using the n word in her tweet and say oh but the rappers use it. Yes and the rappers use some other words too, why not fight for ur so called right to use the f word and every other derogatory word for a group of people, lets spread the love don’t just focus on some ignorant blacks using the n word, lets focus on the gays that call each other the f word and the d word. They won’t do that because they know it would be consequences, and they want everybody to use the n word to downplay and waterdown the meaning and the history and murder that happened while that word was spoken.
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v8driver said:
An anarchist-communist utopia is certainly a challenging aspiration. I am under no illusions about the obstacles to be overcome.
I disagree with many anarchists in that I do not believe that the society to which we aspire can be achieved by force, by violent revolution. For one thing, that would mean compromising our own principles by forcibly imposing a new system upon those who do not desire it. Coercion is against many, if not most, anarchist ideologies.
It is my belief that we must do as Gustav Landauer counselled: we must achieve our aims by social and political evolution rather than by abrupt, traumatic revolution. We must start to live in anarchist-communist ways. That means shunning the State and its mechanisms and adopting community based support strategies. Landauer put it thus:
“The state is not something that can be destroyed by a revolution, but is a condition, a certain relationship between human beings, a mode of human behaviour; we destroy it by contracting other relationships, by behaving differently.”
If an anarchist society can be achieved on a modest scale then it can grow.
One of the main difficulties is that the extant state will seek to suppress and eliminate anything that may grow to challenge its rule. That is where violence may occur, at the interface where the state tries to stop people from freely living as they wish to; where the state tries to compel us to accept and participate in its system.
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@ cleonette
LMAO. Great list! Thanks!
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@Pay it Forward
I am not really sure what is going on because so many comments are coming in and it is hard for me to keep up, but I really hate you feel you are a lone wolf.
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@buddhuu well the only thing i can think of that is relevant in recent history is christiana, denmark, and that just looks like another urban homeless encampment, i get the concepts of anarchy and the dream of open borders, and that it is up to us citizens to inculcate change at a grassroots level but, without downward ‘levelling’ force, it is unclear how disparity on a violence oriented level can be alleviated (and this is purely theoretical, not trying to draw on any ‘current events’ or political scenario in this or any other time frame), my thing is trying to get nuclear weapons out of the hands of the governments we have to bow down to, but i know it goes beyond that
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@v8driver:
It is a huge project and the difficulties you mention are just a part of it, as you say.
The thing is that we simply can’t go on as we are. Capitalism is a short-term system. In a world of finite resources growth cannot be sustained. We are stuck on planet Earth so it is effectively a closed system. Corporations want us to consume, but runaway consumption of resources just results in depletion and ecological destruction. It is unavoidable cause and effect.
Establishing an alternative does require a revolution, but one in thought and values, not one of violence. People will have to think in terms of community and cooperation rather than in terms of selfish acquisition and competition. To quote a line from a song by one of my favourite bands:
“I want an equal share, even if it means I have to give.”
The job isn’t even really begun. We are still at the evangelical, educational stage. Small experiments in northern Europe and, notably, in Spain in the last century, haven’t been able to spread or even to flourish. Amongst the many reasons for that are:
a) anarchism is far from a unified ideology. Its variations are legion – so much so that it is misleading even to use the one umbrella term to cover them. Consensus for development and progress is a challenge
b) When a community is surrounded by land owned by the rich establishment it is hard to expand
c) The state applies taxation and regulation even upon communities that wish to exist without making demands upon it. The state existing to serve the population is a myth: the state rules on behalf of the rich and there is no opt-out for the plebs or proletariat.
I don’t have many solutions, but in my small way I try to live according to the principles of the system I believe in and to promote its growth.
You are right to point out how heavily the odds are stacked against us, but I don’t see an alternative.
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@cleonette: LOL! That sounds like a list Don Lemmon comprised.
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I agree with most everything buddhuu has said and yes the Anarchist tent is pretty big. The Anarchist movement in Spain that buddhuu mentions was smashed by communists, fascists and capitalists. The idea that a community can govern itself out side a state was not going to be tolerated.
The other thing I want to point out is that people say Anarchism is a Utopian ideal but the truth is liberalism/left and conservationism/right is just as Utopian as well. It’s just that those are the boundaries the State wishes to define the game in. You step out of that and you get smashed.
People have a hard time envisioning a stateless society. Who will build the roads? How will their be justice and they imagine a lawless society.
In a Stateless society the form of Law would change from protecting the Corpratacracy and special groups to protecting everyone within the community. Traditional folk and tribal groups operated on customary law which resembles European natural law in spirit but it’s application is compensatory as opposed to punitive. Customary law is about restitution while Statist law focuses on retribution, imprisonment and fines. Customary law is controlled by the community while Statist law is the reflection of the Empire and enforced by the State.
Their are logical solutions to these perceived problems.
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Pay it Forward, before I address anything else on here, I just want to say, I didnt mean to imply you would be seeking acceptance, I kind of just wanted to say that was my experiance..and I included that you probably already know that
The one thing I just want to reiterate and maybe the only thing I can say for right now is, I do understand …and the same way you didnt come in on my personal battles , and I really dont want anyone to , I beleive in fighting my own battles and not involving other people , I hope you understand why im not coming in on your personal battles now, and im sure you feel the same way
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@Michael Jon Barker:
Apologies, Michael, I missed your earlier post, hence my failure to respond to you. I understand the time constraint thing: I don’t have as much time to spend here as I would like either.
I think we probably share a lot of common ground.
Have to go out now but will participate again later.
A good evening to all.
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No, Michael Baker, I dont think it will work…you think these students down in Brazil self identifying themselves as anarchists havnt read and studied everythng you and budhuu mentioned ?
This is reality down here in action…this is where you actualy see how these things play out on the ground…this is where you get to see how all these studies and intellectual university in depth solutions, play out as warped agendas , failing miserably
really, you all are ridiculous when it comes to understanding how you really deal with the corporacracy…
yet it went down under all of your noses…the music business is as high leval as any to see greedy corporations form a monopoly , and corner the markets, and down right forcing their judgement and lame idea of what is good, on everybody, yet, when people could finaly get music for free off the internet, they pretty much brought the hyper predatory capatalistic music business corporations to their knees .
but, it wasnt for any altruistic high notions of teaching them a lesson and really bringing about change. Everyone just wanted free music. People could have gone in for the kill and make sure that music companies lower prices and bring more respect and variety to the market …in in that act of getting free music, and the corps got hit hard, record stored all over the world closed, and really shut out the independent…oh yeah, there is the internet…the cyber parking lot, except for youtube…and look what gets the most numbers ..the worst music , the blandest fluff…
people could bring the corporacracy to their knees if they really wanted to, they dont need any new “isms” that sure would be harder to enforce than anyone thinks, they need to understand, they can turn these things on their head if they really wanted to….but people dont…right now, down here, well studied university students , who studied anarcism, like putting on black masks, breaking public propety poor and regular people uses and need, not rich people, getting it on their i phones and posting it on facebook…
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@MJB said “In a Stateless society the form of Law would change from protecting the Corpratacracy and special groups to protecting everyone within the community.”
this is the express intent of the American “Democrat” party, and although clearly they are within the bubble of the plutocracy, you are creating a tautology since anarchy means without rulers, and yet you make an exception of an instrument of whatever form would fill the power vaccuum to mete out ‘justice’ which violates the concept of the nothing to apply power over others, for whatever reason, so that would be i’d say a (true) socialist (ie not marxist as enacted as a plutocracy) libertarian environment, not a bunch of dudes in the woods with ak-47’s waiting for the next raiding party to come past.
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this is going in the next newsletter, comments appreciated!
“CONFESSIONS: White Skin Privilege
This article is the start of a series which is about some of the things that I have observed and experienced as I have gone through life, as a ‘white’ male. It is a pretty well-known phenomenon that racism exists, and for a white person, especially a male, to shed the influence of the ‘white gaze’ and the lens through which we learned, as white people, through which to see life as Americans, something more than an academic or intellectual exercise is required. It is required to take action and to some degree to refuse to participate (even as a pawn) in the game which grants whites power over non-whites.
This particular article came about a couple days ago, when I got pulled over by the police. My vehicle had no inspection sticker on it, and there were some other issues (mechanical and paperwork related) that could have been illuminated by due diligence that were not. The driver of the the police van was a Puerto Rican male, and his rider was a white male. The Puerto Rican officer came up to my window, and asked me why I didn’t have any inspection stickers on the window. I told him the car had just gotten out of impound the day before and that work was slow for the last few weeks, and I couldn’t afford it. He said, “OK, let me check your license,” and returned to his vehicle. When he returned with my license, there was no ticket in his hand. He admonished me to, “Get some stickers.” The police left.
In a twist of fate, I drove past a black motorist not six blocks away and not ten minutes later from where I had gotten a pass, who had been pulled over by the same police duo in the van. The Puerto Rican police officer was standing in the street, waving the driver’s paperwork in his face, as another police car was pulling up behind the van, on the wrong side of the street. I have no idea if the black man’s paperwork was ‘im ordnung’ or anything else about his traffic stop, but it certainly had a whole different appearance to it.
Breaching this topic gave me some trepidation, I have to admit. Upon further exploration of the genesis of this feeling, I couldn’t really put a finger on it, until I realized that it was fear of the loss of those privileges that was holding me back. In simple terms, most white people are not going to willingly sacrifice the preferential treatment that is accorded them by many Americans – even non-whites in a lot of cases. But as we learn in the recovery process, admitting there is a problem is the first step to a cure (or stopping the progression of the disease at any rate).
This is certainly not the first time that I have thought about this topic, or things similar to this. I have been living within the non-white community for about nine years or so. It took that long for me, through long discussions well into the night both online and in ‘real life’ to come to the realization that changes need to be made. It took me that long to realize that the respect that I can give (or not) is not enough, and someone has to step up, within the white community and give voice to some of these concerns, because the white community is well and truly ignoring many things, not the least of which, inter-cultural and inter-racial relations, the economy, and where this country is going as a whole. “
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@B.R.:
You don’t even begin to have a clue. Your comments are just a rehash of all the uninformed, misunderstanding, propagandised drivel that anarchists get spouted at them all the time.
@V8driver:
Your points make much more sense, but I think they may be based on misunderstanding. Your Democrats are in no real way analogous to anarchists. A few superficial coincidences of stated interest do not add up to a true resemblance. Your Democrats are indeed just another facet of the incumbent plutocracy/oligarchy.
A couple of items on which Michael and I seem to differ are property ownership and the matter of law. To me, anarchism requires no formal structure or system of law. Formalised law, by definition, is coercion set in stone.
More later. It’s late here and I’m wiped out.
Goodnight all.
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@v8driver
“CONFESSIONS: White Skin Privilege”, from what you’ve written sounds interesting. I do think that it could possibly bring out some hostile views so I wonder if that is something that you are also going to consider. I do feel that the majority of people that enjoy “white privilege” are not directly taking part in the actions that restrict other ethnic groups from equality. It would be nice for the authority to be questioned if it is no longer fit for the people. I just wonder what would cause that change and what could be the outcome. States and townships have laws that aren’t overseen by the federal government. So if the majority of people have no issues with the laws that outsiders and some insiders may feel have detrimental effects then what could or would be the vehicle of change in that sort of area/region?
@cleonette
Well that was clever O.o.
@Matari
Sounds like it has potential. I hope is has talented scripwriters in play. I am willing to enjoy a film with a great story even if the graphics aren’t up to par.
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@v8driver
Nice piece.
As far as what whites can do they can call racism out when they see it. It makes people uncomfortable when you do that. How you raise your kids is important too.
I’m all for shutting the system down.
This isn’t something that you can solve by elections or writing checks.
I make it a point to show people respect who normally don’t get it in society. Were brought up being taught to conform,respect authority, trust the police ect.
I think we should treat authority politely but we don’t have to respect it.
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thanks, i thought it was kind of basic compared to abagond’s blog but at least there is a couple buzzwords that have gotten a lot of attention here ‘white gaze’ and the lens concept that this could provide a gateway to understanding for other white people.
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@V8driver, Budhuu ect
This is a copy and paste of a book review of “The Law of the Somalis: A Stable Foundation for Economic Development in the Horn of Africa.”
Their are a number of books that look at law from the perspective of what law looked like prior to the rise of Europeans and the West.
“Many voluntaryists have looked longingly toward Somalia for evidence of our ideas in practice. But it’s a little tough when that real-world example also happens to be the quintessential image of extreme poverty and feuding warlords for most people.
Nonetheless, sometimes an article appears that rightly points out that comparing Somalia to developed nations is a little intellectually dishonest. In fact, Somalia has improved by virtually every measure of standard of living without a state, or when compared to its neighbors that still have a state.
Even the BBC grudgingly admitted that 20 Years of Anarchy had spurred economic growth, especially in the telecommunications sector.
Michael van Notten’s book The Law of the Somalis describes Somalia’s stateless legal tradition, which he calls “kritarchy.”[1] As Africa explodes into populist movements demanding Western-style democracy, I’d like to argue, as van Notten did, that a superior indigenous alternative is nestled right in their backyard.
Somalia is not stateless by accident, as is the conventional view. The Somali people consciously rejected democracy and central government, and with good reason. Prior to the colonial period almost all African nations were polycentric tribal anarchies, which practiced a system of customary law.
The Somalis never accepted the legal systems of the colonial powers and largely ignored them or tried to nullify them by noncompliance, preferring always the social software of their own design. In 1991 the Republic of Somalia collapsed, but rather than electing a new leader, Somalis simply allowed their indigenous customary law to become the unopposed law of the land, which did not include any central government.
No discussion of Somalia can occur without addressing the political violence in and around the city of Mogadishu. So why Mogadishu? Well, that’s where the defunct politicians of the old republic, now known as “warlords,” are attempting to reestablish a central government in the old capital.
The United States and the United Nations believe that a central government is necessary to bring Somalia into, “the family of democratic nations,” and they have spent billions of dollars on state-building efforts, which only perpetuate the violence. Essentially, there is a huge pool of free money for whichever warlord can convincingly claim to be the central government of Somalia, but the people persistently resist all such claims. So warlords must use brute force, against both the people and each other, if they want the slush fund. Were it not for this there would be little incentive for civil war.
Van Notten speculates that the reason the US and UN do this is ideological, and fundamentally rooted in their fear that if Somalia were allowed to succeed, its system of stateless law could be viewed as a viable alternative to democracy and be spread elsewhere.
Why are the Somali people consistently unimpressed with Western political systems?
To answer that, we’ve got to define four sources of law that Van Notten identifies in the book: natural law, contract law, statutory law, and customary law. Natural law is the voluntary primordial order of all human societies, which coevolved with human nature. It is the invisible hand behind the entire human ecosystem. Natural law can be discovered and described, but it cannot be amended by human ambitions. A natural right is one that can be universalized to all human beings and exercised without permission and without infringing on the rights of others — namely, these are the rights to life, liberty, and property. Put simply, don’t hurt people and don’t take their stuff.
Contract law simply means to keep your agreements. A contract is valid when it is voluntarily entered and does not violate the rights of any third party.
Statutory laws are rules written by rulers and enforced through threats of violence, usually by a standing police force.
Customary law may be an unfamiliar concept, but once you learn to see it, you’ll see it everywhere. Like natural law, it emerges spontaneously from people’s voluntary interactions. Think of it like this: the laws of chemistry or physics are eternal, but the sciences of those disciplines are constantly evolving. Such is the relationship of natural law to customary law. Natural law is eternal, while customary law is the discipline of refining our understanding of it.
Natural law can only be pursued in ways consistent with itself, just as inconsistency disproves a law in science. In that sense, fraudulent contracts, barbaric customs, and oppressive statutes cannot be rightfully regarded as laws at all, just rules.
The Somalis are not ignorant of these concepts. In fact, life, liberty, property, and the four divisions of law all have words in their language that were not borrowed from other languages, indicating that these concepts are as indigenous to them as they are to English speakers. It was no historical accident that they developed a voluntary legal structure. Almost every Somali child is thoroughly educated in the customary law by the age of seven. Even an illiterate nomad understands life, liberty, and property, and regards himself as subject to no authority except God.
The Somali people strongly reject statutory systems like democracy because they render everyone subservient to political officials. They oppose dividing society into the rulers and the ruled. Democracy is often presented as “government by consent,” but in any statutory regime, someone claims the authority to rule over those who don’t consent. The inability to opt out by nonparticipation or secession renders the whole concept of consent meaningless. There can be no natural right to elect a “representative” to do what you have no natural right to do yourself.
Further, the idea that rulers could write new laws would strike the Somali people as obscene, because in their view the law is preexistent.
They cherish natural rights like the right to self defense by private arms, to practice law, to travel, to freely contract, to educate children, and to trade in open markets; in statutory systems all of these are reduced to privileges requiring licenses. In natural law, one is free to engage in all of these activities without asking permission, and every license is an infringement on that right. In order to protect natural rights, statutory law must first violate natural rights; whereas customary law is designed to protect natural rights in ways that approximate natural law. In this sense, statutory democracy itself is incompatible with natural law.
So what is kritarchy? How does Somali customary law work?
The term “kritarchy” comes from the Greek terms kritès (judge) and archè (principle) and describes a social order where justice is the ruling principle. It’s tempting to think of it as “rule by judges,” but that’s not really accurate. In a kritarchy, judges have no special powers and only hold their position by the consent of others. And there are no rules prohibiting anyone from serving as a judge. Disputing parties may choose anyone who has a good reputation, and it often happens that a clan has many judges. But a Somali judge only enforces the customary law, which is natural law as he understands it.
Traditional Somali society is decentralized, similar to the Internet. There is no executive or legislature. There is only a set of familiar protocols shared by a network of independent individuals organized into clans.
Now, you might think that a clan must have a chief who is the final arbiter in all matters. This is simply not the case. In fact most Somali clans have origin stories about a distant past when their elders appointed a clan chief, but he was so oppressive or incompetent that they abolished the position and agreed never to appoint another.
Individuals are in no way obligated to their clan. Dissenters are never forced to participate in any clan activity, and individuals are free to leave their clan and either join another or form their own. There is no coercive hierarchy within the clan. Antisocial behavior only leads to social ostracism. If force must be used, it is never to destroy persons or property but only to halt aggression.
The legal apparatus only comes into effect when there has been a violation of rights, as in personal injury or damage to property. All justice is restorative, not punitive. So if there is no victim there is no crime. Somali law requires only that victims be compensated for violations of their life, liberty, and property.
A law court is formed when a conflict requires a third party to resolve it. If the disputants are from the same clan they may go to the same judge, but if they are from different clans judges from each family form a law court together. Judges are tasked with investigating the conflict and discovering a resolution that most satisfies the reason and conscience of both parties, not with rendering a verdict consistent with the precedents of other courts.
If the defendant is found to be at fault, compensation is owed to the victim for the damage caused. Somalis view humiliating or punishing a wrongdoer as a waste of time and resources, except that an additional fine may be awarded to the victim if the violation was intentional. The task of deterrence or rehabilitation is left to the clan of the wrongdoer, because they are ultimately liable for him.
So in the case of injury, the wrongdoer may be obliged to provide medical care as the victim recovers. In the case of theft, the stolen property must be returned and the victim compensated for their trouble. In the case of property damage, the property must be repaired or replaced. Although it is rare, in the case of homicide a murderer may be executed, but more often the bereaved family will agree to compensation, which is called the “blood price.” It is always up to the victim, not the judge, to decide to what extent to enforce the verdict.
All cases are widely discussed in the community, and if there is a consensus that the judge is not performing to the people’s satisfaction he may lose the confidence of his clan, and he will likely not be asked to settle future conflicts. In this way, judges are always subject to open competition.
Should enforcement be necessary within one clan, the court may request that able-bodied men in the community volunteer as a temporary police force, but there are no standing police. They may only use the minimum force necessary to right what was wronged. However, if the conflict was between multiple clans, one clan has no power to enforce its verdict on another. Penalties can be imposed for refusing to comply with a verdict, but clans are expected to police their own, and there are mechanisms in place to incentivize this.
Every clan maintains a communal fund that members voluntarily contribute to. This fund operates as a kind of social insurance for every Somali against liability. It can be used both to provide welfare for clan members who fall on hard times and as venture capital for businessmen to borrow and invest. If a person owes restitution that they cannot afford to pay, they must approach their clan to have their liability covered by this insurance fund.
This can be painfully embarrassing, and it gives the clan an opportunity to chastise the person, but it also insures that victims can always be made whole. In the case of conflict between multiple clans, this allows the clan of the victim to seek restitution from the insurance fund of the clan of the wrongdoer, which incentivizes clans to police their own. If habitual violators of the law become a drain on the clan’s insurance fund they may have their membership terminated, making them an outlaw with no protection from any court.
In principle, this description of the kritarchy in Somalia will seem very familiar to any student of natural law. However, in practice some of the customs which have evolved are so unique to their cultural and historical context that they seem utterly foreign.
Some customs are also stifling to economic development, which may explain why growth has been slower than we might predict in a stateless society. For example, customary law has been very reluctant to extend property rights to land. Instead land is owned by the clan, and an elaborate system of land-use customs have developed. This makes a kind of sense for a nomadic pastoral society, but for the development of modern infrastructure, land ownership is key.
In addition, foreigners have no protection in the Somali legal system (unless they are accepted by a host clan), and they are completely prohibited from owning land. The logic behind this is that they are not insured against liability the way clan members are; but discouraging foreign trade has stifled both economic growth and cultural cross-pollination.
Other customs are utterly barbaric by modern standards. Some clans use very primitive physical punishment for delinquent youth, as in tying them to a tree covered with honey and allowing them to be bitten by ants. The worst practices described in the book are those impacting women. In one case a verdict against a rapist obliged him to marry the woman he raped, the logic being that the damage he’d caused her was to spoil her marriageability. Some of these customs are so incredibly backward that they can only be understood with the detachment of an anthropologist, which van Notten provides.
Obviously, these customs have no place in natural law. It is incredibly important to understand that Somalia’s customary law is not being presented as a panacea, but that the elegant legal structure of kritarchy and its potential compatibility with natural law is a superior foundation for future development than is democracy.
To understand this point, imagine for a moment that customs like these were enshrined in the statutes of a democratic system. History shows us that social change precedes political change, and forcing the political apparatus to reflect social change is a slow process requiring mass movements, civil disobedience, and even civil war.
Customary law, on the other hand, evolves literally simultaneously with social change. It consists of the rules that judges discern from the normative behavior of living people. If social change occurs gradually, custom will change gradually; and if social change occurs suddenly, custom will change suddenly — because custom is changed by voluntary acceptance, not by democratic process.
Kritarchy can only exist in societies where the custom of seeking justice is stronger than the custom of achieving political goals through coercion. For democracy the opposite is true. For that reason, kritarchy is eminently suited to protect natural rights.
Kritarchy in Somalia challenges the conventional view that tribal societies had no concept of property and contract, because even without a central government Somalia has since time immemorial engaged in free trade, where prices are determined by market forces, and competition prevented the emergence of monopolies.
The Somalis have demonstrated that providing justice in the free market is at least possible, and that you don’t need to pass statutes prohibiting murder and theft, because those laws already exist, whether you write them down or not. In short, they have demonstrated that life, liberty, and property are inscribed upon the hearts of mankind, like fingerprints in the clay of Adam.
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[1] Editor’s Note: Michael van Notten. The Law of the Somalis: A Stable Foundation for Economic Development in the Horn of Africa. Edited by Spencer Heath McCallum (Red Sea Press, 2005). The book was published before the international intervention of 2006, which propped up the Somali central government for a few years.
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You are welcome 🙂
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Buddhuu, you can say anything you want about me , but , I trust my nose, and what you are saying, and the things Ive seen and read, it stinks.
First of all, where I may not have studied anarchy in depth, Ive been forced to catch up, since the country I live , has been subjected to demonstrations of wanton violence, by self described anarchists who are lily white pampered elite university students…anarchy , the theories and written material does come from intellectuals , many from the ivory towers of the insulated university campus…i would presume…just like Marx
Second, that would be pretty arrogant of you to think these Brazilian university students , shouting anti capatalistic phrases and self describing themselves as anarchists, arnt well studied in the political left and their chosen anarchy…Brazil is a hyper political left leaning country, this is a virtual labratory of how left thinking works and acted out on , they have had two marxist attemted armed revolutions , the left diologue is huge and out in the open , there is no better place to study left politics than in Brazil…there is practicly no conceervative political party .So , I find your statements way off base.
I dont have to know the depth of anarchy, i can smell it now and I dont like it. Because at least these students know, they are going to have to bring violence to just radicly change a system . I also dont like the smell of your property mandates, not because Im going to buy property soon, but, because I dont like the idea of someone telling me what I can buy and cant…is it going to be you telling me what I can do and cant? No thanks…How does that play out with health care? Do I get to pick who I want to go to? There are way too many holes in this intellectualy worked out on paper but too many questions on the ground.
Somolia is the example? I mean cmon, if we all lived like the indigenous tribes in the Amazon, we , the world would be a better place, if we all threw away organised religion, we all would be a better place…but , in real life on the ground, its not going to happen. Somolia’s laws, look like they have been passed down many many years, and can work in that context, like life works for the indiginous people in the Amazon, but playing this out on a world scale, is naive.
Its funny, my idea of people just need to organise how they did with the music business, is simple, easy, non violent, made to put preasure on hyper predatory capataism,…but ,no , that isnt good enough for intellectual theories , worked out on paper, but , hardly can work on the ground
Capatalism can work if it has a concience, and the people have to reflect that
You are a union guy, right Buddhuu? I hate the union, been a card carrying member for 40 years in two countries…they tried to mess with my money in two countries, I hate the union…they arnt looking after me
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Here’s one of my most favorite Alexander O’Neal songs from the late 80s. It’s catchy, as well as being a really great dance tune!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN1RYACiXNs)
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@mjb way to stay on point! very appropriate and interesting article
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“I am still annoyed at the fact that B. R. compared you to Islamic terrorists, just as he compared jefe to Asian communists. Both fall under the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype, which paints all Asians as foreign threats”
bring in one quote where I ever said any of those things, bring in one valid quote of mine..because this is a blatent lie
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Kiwi , what kind of activism is based on lies ? Because of your insecurities about sex , you make up lies about what someone said. Powerful activism is based on truth, not making up falsehoods
Im calling you on this.
Bring in one quote where I ever associeted Mosh as the terrorists
Where I associeted Jefe with the communists
Where ive made one anti Asian male statement
Building your mud raking falsehoods into your suposed activist position, only makes you look weak
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A part of me wants to subscribe to open thread so I can figure out what all is going on but then another part of me thinks it might be best I just don’t know.
*decided to stay in her lane*
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“What makes you think I’m a conservative, I’m not even American.
I’m from Pakistan, and this drone war is personal, I haven’t liked any American Presidents(apart from JFK).”
Kiwi acused me of implying Mosh is the perpetual foreigner, as though Mosh is American born….Here is Mosh saying he/she is not American and from Pakistan
another blatent case of misinformation from Kiwi, who keeps coming up short with misstatements and half truths…I dont beleive any of his anecdotal stories now, why should I? Look how he has gotten so many things about me wrong..
Just bring in one quote, Kiwi , where I said Jefe was Asian communist or that is anti Asian male…just one…you dont have any credit
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@Micheal Jon Baker (if I misspelled sorry on my phone)
Thank you for the book and snippets. I’m kind of excited because I have so many new books to check out that people have suggested. Can’t believe I never knew about it before now.
@Sharina
I agree. I also think I will follow that lead of just passive observance unless I do want to write about something.
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Kiwi, how you are feeling about Asian women , does not give you the right to say false things about me. I never said Mosh was associeted with terrorists and he/she identified Pakistan as their country, I did not make Mosh the perpetual foreigner. I did not ever associete jefe as Asian communist, and always knew he was born in the USA
I told you I was upset at the japanese internment, that I knew of through a movie, “from here to eternity” and me and a white freind were upset to hear his viet nam vet freind use the word “g##k” in our presence, the only viet nam vet I ever heard say that…the vets who use that word were the racist types in the first place…the truth is, jewish people, black people and Puerto Ricans got the most white racist hate , back in my time, the Asian story was left out…that was the problem in Chicago back then with Asian racism .
Its hard for me to sympathise with your dating situation since I faced attemted physical intimidation from all sides, and I married a black woman at the hight of the black militant activist call for anti interracial relationships..the white racists always were the big problem, and , it sure wasnt accepted in white society…it was just against the grain
Why are you so hung up on statistics? You dont go picking dating choices consulting statistics,you shouldnt care about statistics of Asian women, you should be conscerned about the right Asian woman for you…Where there may be some Asian women only attracted to white men, there are plenty more dating white men who are open to all men and you could catch them on the rebound..
Its like you want to posess Asian women…you cant posess women, you speak on that to white men, but , you forgot it for yourself and Asian women…why are you concentrating on the Asian women with white men, when there are huge amounts of Asian women who would be attracted to you? I could care less who white women want to date…or any women
And, how can I trust what you say about Asian women , when you have gotten so much wrong about me? I cant trust your stories now…if its what you did to me, you superimposed your own beleifs over the truth and antagonised them from the start
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@ B.R.: Five comments deleted for insulting language and personal remarks.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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(brought it here as to not bog down comment policy)
@B. R.
I sympathize with your situation as well. You know looking back on those situations I allowed that person to believe they were more interesting or important than they really were. I guess for the New Year I am hoping to avoid allowing any other troll to believe such of themselves. I do think I went overboard in those situations, but like you I don’t want that person to get away with lying on me. It is a tough call it seems. 🙂
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@Michael Jon Barker
Many thanks for your post about the Somali approach to law. Truly fascinating.
How an anarchist community should deal with malefactors is one of the more difficult questions. Incarceration is entirely unacceptable. Many anarchists consider it preferable to take the life of a repeat violent offender rather than to imprison him. I cannot accept that. Camus’s “Reflections on the Guillotine” helped to cement my own opposition to capital punishment. Death as a tool of “justice” easily becomes a tool of oppression.
The Somali practices do seem to have evolved into a fairly robust system. Imperfect, of course, but in many ways very superior to the systems currently operated in the UK and US. Western justice tends, consciously or otherwise, to favour the privileged.
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@B.R.
I despise capitalism and I experience acute frustration every time I get dragged into debate with a capitalist or a person who has been brainwashed by capitalist dogma.
I sympathise with anyone who fights against capitalism.
For the last time, I am not a Marxist. Marxism is nothing to do with me so I don’t understand why you use the behaviour of Marxists to illustrate points when you argue against me.
If you wish to argue with me then you should at least understand the basic thrust of my ideology. I am a kind of anarchist-communist – not a Marxist. If you cannot be bothered to arm yourself with basic information about the political philosophy to which I subscribe then you must excuse me for disregarding your challenges. Most of them are misguided and not relevant to my position.
For example:
This is nothing to do with me and is not a valid challenge to my position. I am opposed to violent revolution, as I stated on the record in this article:
http://www.buddhuu.com/prefer-evolution-revolution/
Further example:
As Michael and I have both explicitly stated, anarchists are opposed to coercion. That means that we cannot and would not force you to give up your property. As we may not force people to do things, we have to optimistically rely on their sanity, their ability to control greed, their ability to outgrow selfishness, their desire to care for everyone in their community equally and compassionately. We have to educate, explain, appeal, persuade, convince… This is why our aspirations require determination – many people are so selfish and irrational that they represent a near insurmountable obstacle to progress.
As for your repeated objections to things that are “intellectually worked out”, well… I’m sorry, but they strike me as irrational. We need more thought, not less.
I reject that as empirically disproven bull droppings. Capitalism is one massive fail on every conceivable level. It cannot be sanely defended by anyone except the terminally self-centered, short-sighted and power-hungry. Your terminology sounds almost like anarcho-capitalism, one of the most risible, disingenuous, political pseudo-philosophies ever trumped up. Just my opinion, of course.
Capitalism gave us slavery and the sack and rapine of every country that Europeans helped themselves to.
Did you say you were Pakistani? Good grief, man. Look what western capitalist imperialism has done to your part of the world.
I used to be a “union guy”. I came to recognise that unions, like all hierarchical institutions, cannot escape corruption. Vested interest eventually takes over from stated purpose.
Unions are more the domain of anarchist-syndicalists, not of my kind of anarchist communist.
I think that my kind of anarchism is perhaps more radical than even you suspect.
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Let me sum up my position in an easy bite.
Pro: equality for all, freedom, peace, honesty and transparency, improvement in living standards for all, integrity.
Anti: inequality, coercion, elitism, privilege, greed, hierarchy, selfishness, militarism, violence, secrecy, hypocrisy.
Pretty much my entire philosophy can be extrapolated from those items.
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Whenever I am having a bad I always check to see what Agabond is writing. Anyway, thought I would leave this here for anyone interested. Fox News, doing it’s thing again.
http://wonkette.com/539826/fox-news-thinks-black-children-should-stop-doing-not-as-much-pot-as-their-white-counterparts#idc-cover
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Disproven bulldroppings? you have to be kidding, Budhuu, it already happened…its really hilarious when people like you go into a big speal how ridiculous and bull droppings something is, when it already happened…you can see the results in front of your eyes…the music business dropped to its knees…because people could get stuff for free.. that simple..are you blind? its very clear to any of us involved with the music business…huge amounts of cd stores just closed outright…you dont think that is blatent and easy to grasp what happened?
You can hate capatalism all you want, but, people flock to it en masse..I could really care less there are disgruntled people like you around not standing capitalism, but, again , reality sais something different…you are just going to have to suk on a lemon
I didnt call you a marxist, but you can learn the way these ideologies try to get implemented and then the damage they do from seeing what happened with marxism…killed more people than anything in the last century…
No slavery is not capatalism, slavery is more close to communism , where everyone works for the benifit of the state/estate and the owner is the dictator
you cant just atribute any thing relating to the market as capatalism, the market is part of human history , people were marketing gold thousands of years ago in Africa
official capatalism as we know it , came about with the industrial revolution and was one of the reasons to get rid of slavery…you are really confused, its really a drag to hear the slavery was capatalism refrains from people like you
its funny, the music business and its fall because everyone wants stuff for free is very clear and easy to see, people flocking to capatalism ( im not talking about hyper predatory capatalism , that is horrible and i hate) in huge numbers is very easy and clear to see…but your anarchism is so nebulous and ununderstandable , as you keep acusing me of…that is exactly what is wrong with it…too nebulous, too many loose ends…no, thinking about things too much is the problem, dont you get what the buda was trying to tell us?
simplicity and clear cut and efficient is what works the best, not nebulous
if your anarchism is so hard to understand…its going to be hard to impliment…
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@Anne
Are they even remotely serious? Scratch that. I don’t think you can fake that kind of stupid.
@ B.R.
Another thing I wanted to mention. Kiwi has valid points in regards to whites view of Asian men. Listen and try to understand where he is coming from.
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Kiwi spoils his points by making false statements about what I said
Kiwi , many times ,stereyotypes what white men feel about Asian men , , many things Kiwi sais white men feel, I have never heard white men say , model minority, genital size, I dont hear this in real life conversation…I find many things Kiwi sais to leave a lot to be desired…I tour the states at least once a year various cities, and , I dont see this huge amount of Asian women with white men…it may be large where he lives , but, it doesnt play out big time in the cities I tour
everyone can make valid points , but to then shroud it with false statements, and Kiwi has made a bunch, really preasures the credibility
Tell me why im supossed to listen to what he sais when he said I think Mosh is a terrorist and I had the perpetual foreigner steroytype going? …when he sais that I said that Jefe is an Asian communist and like I thought he was born in China and also acussed me of having the perpetual foreigner steryotype on that one…and he was wrong
Tell me why Im suposed to listen when he has acused me of hiding behind my wife and son ? When he doesnt understand the first thing about the struggle of Afro diasporic cultures that my wife and son have to face big time , since they are Afro diasporic cultural entertainers
Tell me why im suposed to listen to Kiwi when he just ranks up and down on interracial sex relationships with the worst kind of steryotypes ?
I really dont understand your need to advise me to listen to Kiwi when he has basicly and fundamentaly disrespected me
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@B. R.
“I have never heard white men say , model minority, genital size, I dont hear this in real life conversation…”
That is frankly why you both are butting heads (neither one of you are listening to each other). Just because you have not heard it does that mean it is not true?
Secondly his false statements about YOU does not mean what he is saying is false entirely. Often times in here we say things not realizing that we are holding on to a stereotype. You may have actually said something (yes harmless in your mind) that was offensive to kiwi. If you had listened to him instead of writing him off because of his feelings on IR or his inaccurate accounts of what you said you might be able to find the confusion and have a productive conversation instead of a destructive one.
“I really dont understand your need to advise me to listen to Kiwi when he has basicly and fundamentaly disrespected me.”—Your right. I wasted my time. Why try to understand anyone? Just continue to tell them about themselves instead. Feed the divide. I am sure that is more productive than simply listening and talking it out like adults.
I will no longer mention the subject and simple take the time to ignore. Good day
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@Sharina,
No you cannot. And kudos for being so polite. Sometimes, I get the impression there are people on this blog who use it to vent their misdirected anger at some of us. An old Caribbean saying, “Dey have coco in sun.”
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@B.R.
Ok, this is going nowhere. What you say is deluded nonsense to me and what I say seems equally absurd to you. Irreconcilable ideologies: neither of us is going to influence the other in any meaningful way so it’s kind of futile to continue, but thanks for the discussion.
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Hey, did you read about Madonna using “the n word” and then refusing to apologise afterwards, instead choosing to hashtag #getoffmyd¡(khaters? Until she was hounded and finally semi apologised my saying she used it as a term of endearment? And this comes just months after she compared being asked not to use her phone in the movie theatre to slavery, during a showing of “12 years a slave.”
I hate to be prideful, but I wanna take the time to announce that I called it on Madonna first (as far as I know) on this board. I spotted the suspect behaviour first, so I’m taking the time to tell everyone neh, neh, neh, neh, neh, I told you so.
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@B.R.
You get pretty defensive when people disagree with you. Don’t take it so personally and try to wrap your mind about what we are talking about. Understand that were sharing information, were not trying to win an argument.
Were not talking about people destroying private property or violent revolution. It is rather a revolution in ideas and recognizing the hierarchy’s that coerce society.
The things that Buddhuu and I are discussing are ideas that have been written about since the mid 1850’s. The internet has allowed these ideas to be debated and has brought people together from different ideological back grounds and this fusion has resulted in anarchism evolving in a couple different directions.
You said .. “the music business dropped to its knees…because people could get stuff for free.. that simple..are you blind? its very clear to any of us involved with the music business…huge amounts of cd stores just closed outright…you dont think that is blatent and easy to grasp what happened?”
Anarchism isn’t about getting stuff for free. This happened because of technology and the fact that some copy right law is too costly to hunt down and prosecute.
When I say that abolishing IP and patent law will help the economy I don’t mean that it will make everything free or that it would put people out of business. It might put Wall Street out of business but the net result would be that the billions of dollars in corporate hierarchy’s would end up being dispersed on the bottom end of production and distribution. This means more money in the hands of workers, owners and entrepreneur’s.
For example Bill Gates and Microsoft are an 84 billion dollar monopoly guaranteed by patent law. If other company’s were able to compete and produce Microsoft products this would create an incentive to improve upon these products as a products uniqueness and cost are factors that consumes consider when purchasing something.
This would create more jobs, manufacturing, engineering ect and that 84 billion dollars would be spread out horizontally throughout the economy instead of stuck in a vertical corporate hierarchy. This kind of wealth redistribution would happen naturally within freed market forces.
The only thing corporations care about is the year end profit statement because that is what determines the company’s value. So Mc Donlads could pay their workers more but don’t because that would take away from their year end share holder report. If they made up for increased wages by charging more for product then their competitors would get increased market share. So they won’t raise wages. So end market speculation. Speculation is different then market investment. People want a return on their Investment in the market or in a particular stock and that’s legitimate. But betting against the market, derivatives,shorting and futures markets are games rigged for insiders at the expense of the public. These games hedge the value of things for short term profit and we end up with housing bubbles and low wages.
I also want to talk a little bit about Capitalism. Like the word anarchism and racism it means different things to different people. To me capitalism is the free market that works in concert with the state and banking system guaranteeing certain markets for a privileged few. It is the free market of coercion where choices are limited and scarcity made profitable. Capitalism is not the voluntary actions of people trading amongst themselves free from third party coercion.
Another aspect of capitalism is it’s imperial currency.
All countries issue Sovereign bonds to back fiat money which represent the “productivity” and “capital” of the country that issues the currency. Currently American home mortgages are being leveraged by the Fed and when the U.S. government raises it’s debt ceiling it lowers the value of those mortgages in effect stealing it’s capital and that stagnates the productivity. Banks are unwilling to lend and businesses are unwilling to take risks.
It’s the countries reaping of taxes, fees, licensing ect from its productivity that pays back these labor notes. It is the State’s claim of ownership of your wages that allows you to be born into debt. It is the systemic nature of the banking system that links all banks world wide with the selling, trading and leveraging of that debt. Markets can take an asset and leverage that to gain capital for investment. But the State through Banks takes your labor and leverage’s that to create the capital to fund the empire. That’s credit taken from people not even born yet.
World Wide deficits are running over 50 trillion dollars and represent the human value of close to 8 billion people.
And when you add usury on top of that debt you begin too see the nature of your servitude.
The function of Imperial currency is its ability to own both human labor and control natural resources from afar often times without the need to station troops.
I’ve laid out problems with the system and it’s this same system that supports white supremacy through it’s laws, it’s money and it’s imperialism.
Anarchism is an alternative that seeks to limit or do away with it’s hierarchical nature and return it to people.
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@ ebonymonroe
yep u called it. I was not surprised by what she tweeted and how she responded. She is disgusting. Her apology was lame sorry if I offended yada yada. And right on time people started saying but rappers blah blah blah. so why can’t Madonna. I feel bad for those adopted black kids she has though they will more than likely be whitewashed, makes u wonder what she says to them.
@ Anne
rofl at that woman thinking oh well if the minorities would lower their pot smokin even more then they wouldn’t be arrested so much. smh. those charts are very telling, whites use it more yet blacks get arrested way more for it. It just proves that even when black people have lower instances of doing things we still get demonized and get punished the most. people say well if it was even lower or gone completely u wouldn’t have anything to worry about.
They go after blacks the most even though it’s mostly whites that grow this stuff and smoke it, because of white supremacy. They can’t have whites being the poster child for weed arrests. it is like how a white person wears a hoodie is not suspicious but a black person that wears one is very suspicious. A white person smoking weed is seen as cool or hippie, a black person does it and they are criminal, need to stop. I am not condoning weed usuage but if u punish somebody punish everybody that does it not just pay special attention to certain people. If they do legalize this mess what are the chances they will let the black people have a clean record that were caught with it. I think the main reason they want it legalized is because more whites were getting caught with it so now they want to change the rules to the game so they stay winning.
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SMH
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2543069/Abramovichs-girlfriend-fire-picture-posing-chair-half-naked-black-woman-appears-Russian-fashion-blog-MLK-day.html
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Totaly saying something false about someone and using it to say they are racist is differant than putting words in someone’s mouth…the most you can say about me , in reguards to you is that, after listening to your tirades against interracial sex, I question your situation with women.
Kiwi, Im not even debating or indulging you, I have nothing to hide, for that reason, Ill tell you this
I have never been on Biff or Randy’s side, we have never high fived and agreed, i do not know them and refuse to bandy about who is racist and who isnt , since it is a word that has lost credibility
No, I wasnt siding with them at all…its more based on you and jefe’s acumalated one sided build up as though America was the worst thing for Asian people while Mao was eliminating 50 million, and both your takes on interracial sex comes out with Jefe’s lynching joke and your constant tirades against interracial sex…my instincts were totaly correct
Sharina, its funny you come after me , when you should be asking Kiwi why he creates such falsehoods and tries to call me racist out of those falsehoods…listen? Listen to his falsehoods? This is to you too, Anne, who mocked me, sitting behind your computor screen…let me tell you, after the ugly climate set here on interracial sex, this is no discusion or debate…Im not arguing with these people of any color or gender, Im at war with these people, and have been since i started interracial dating…I recognise this crap for exactly what it is , and i guarentee you , if this week , white men and Asian women are in the barral, next week its going to be white men and black Brazilian women…this is war, I dont wait for this to come to me, I attack the ugly head as soon as I see it…and it is ugly and full of the most wretched steryotypes and cliches
If this is too uncomfortable for you, Im sorry, that is the way it is, this is a disgusting war that shouldnt even have to be fought in 2014…funny, Sharina, you got dragged around the coals over interracial relationships, and I stood up for you…yet, you think Im the one that ought to listen …I listened to Kiwi a long long time before I got his gist and started taking him to task
I dont know what your problem is, anne, you mocked me standing up for some anti interracial relationship comment Kiwi was making about my family…questioning my ability to look after them, do you have a problem with that? Do you actualy think you understand their cultural needs more than me? Just bring it if you can, dont mock me from a distance hiding behind your computor screen
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M J Barker, I apreciete your efforts to explain your side, and I apreciete your point Buddhuu, lets agree to disagree
Barker, its not my reaction to you both, its my acumulated built up defences from living in a country, a marvelous country, that has a huge left take on the world and a lot of people who talk the anti capatalistic schpeel to death
Im actualy consider myself on the left, but, I like capatalism, not hyper predatory capatalism , which I hate, but a capatalism with a concience, that regulates when it has to, that can have social programs and not be thought of as socialist…im not even against socialiam if it is the type that co exists with capatalistic countries and doesnt try and tear it down..
Barker, I am all for anything that can enter the capatalistic system now, and help regulate the distribution of wealth, put power sharing and profit sharing in the workers hands, with out tearing down the existing system
I dont beleive racism is innate to the system, It is seperate and imposed on the system…black Americans do wonderful in the system if they can get white racism off their backs…racism is a seperate issue, it exists in communist countries, it exists in fundamental religious countries of all religions, until people start addressing racism for exactly what it is, it will never really be dealt with
You see in Brazil now, black Brazilians start to get more rights, more acceptance in the media, and quotas in universities…but, black Brazilian culture, the roots and origins, is slowly being pushed down, and , as long as black culture is not recognised for the value it has, there is no political system that will deal with racism
So , I dont beleive capatalism promotes racism in itself…its the people behind it…
If people dont get the differance how the Bush administration and their hyper predatory capatalism nearly tanked the country, and , Obama and the democrats pulled us back from the abyss, then I cant help them, but the republicans argue like it never happened. The truth about hyper predatory capatalism should be set in stone…but its not…
but tear down the existing system? No, I dont want to, I want people to realise the power they have to easily cause change if they want, in the existing system
in a nut shell, if you have something that can work its way into the existing system with out destroying it, im all for that, but radicle solutions worked out on paper, depending on an honor system, not really inderstanding human charactor, that involves tearing down the existing system…
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@Anne:
Great link. Thanks. That one achieved simultaneous LOL and Grrr.
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@Legion
I’m about to head back to work, but when I get home I’ll post the articles.
Curtsey bows before mstoogood4yall
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@buddhuu & mistoogood,
I had the same reaction to the article. The scary part is that some people believe that nonsense.
Also, is it just me or is this SNL transcript suddenly very appropriate on this thread? http://snltranscripts.jt.org/88/88jmockme.phtml
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@B. R.
I was not coming at you. I was giving you some polite advice. YOU might actually think you are not saying anything offensive but it may be such to Kiwi and others. This is the only thing I tried to point out to you. Take it or leave it, but as I stated I am done with it and will no longer speak on the matter. Do what you want.
“funny, Sharina, you got dragged around the coals over interracial relationships, and I stood up for you…yet, you think Im the one that ought to listen …I listened to Kiwi a long long time before I got his gist and started taking him to task”—I appreciate that you did but I am not going to allow you to guilt me into not speaking my mind on the matter. No hard feelings on my part but I know to just leave it when I say I am going to leave it.
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@Anne
That transcript made me want to watch the episode. lol
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This was a bit funny.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xl3Q_2pE0U)
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Kiwi, what is the mystery? You know exactly the feeling of staring at Asian females with white males, with pre judgement and stereotypes, and hostility
because you bash Asian American females relentlessly…Ive never heard you say a nice thing about Asian american females..if a white man constantly bashes white women , he gets called a women hater…black women on here have lamented big time at the hate and depiction coming from some black men, and you are on here doing the same thing to Asian American women…the suposed object of your desire…and you bash them…can you look in the mirror on that one?
In my life time , there never was a lynching in the big city I grew up in for interracial sex, and , before i was born , I dont know how many years you can go back to find a lynching for interracial sex
that is no excuse in 2014 , to have hang ups about interracial sex…only people with their own inner insecurities are getting hung up on interracial sex…i dont care if anyone personaly doesnt want to, but back your tired cliched political agendised rhetoric and rationalisations off those of us who do have interracial relationships
kiwi, 80 percent of your anecdotal tirades about Asian women with white men, is from your uncles and aunts…what a narrow frame of referance
you have created falsehoods about me…your credibility is very low , why should i trust anything you have said?
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@Legion
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CBUm7GrNI)
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What I found interesting about this story (link below), is that there remains a racist contingent that truly believes racism is primarily driven by Black people. That’s the lie some love to tell as a way to hinder us from pointing out injustice.
Imagine how blind one’s mindset has to be that you’re willing to block out continual legal, social, economic, etc. disparities that still impact POC. The irony that this incident comes from a “Christian” radio host.
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/16401300-angry-bitter-black-people-responsible-for-white-racism-radio-talk-show-host
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@bygodsloveandgrace
I agree. That is a straight lie that most try to tell themselves, but I realize that perhaps some need to tell themselves that lie to survive. I read somewhere (and I can’t find it for the life of me) that depressed individuals are more in tune with reality as the average person needs to tell themselves continued lies to get by. I often wonder if that does not apply to people who are in denial of how this system actually works. I say people because there are poc that are just as much in denial as their white counterparts.
I see it in here and I often time call it projection. The angry bitter stereotype is one that certain whites love to paint on black people. Besides the idea that if you know one then you know them all attitude.
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Excellent commentary Sharina. I’ve observed a lot more projection these past few years, especially following Mr. Obama’s presidency. It has become a sort of paranoia.
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@ B. R.
I think Ebonymonroe very relevantly asked you why you always talk about ‘interracial sex’ instead of ‘interracial relationships’ or even interracial marriage.
The language you use is objectifying. Is it all about sex for you?
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Another study showing racism’s potential to destroy health and shorten longevity: http://www.science20.com/news_articles/racism_will_literally_make_you_old_say_epidemiologists-127290
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shooting @ Columbia, mall in Maryland:http://pix11.com/2014/01/25/columbia-mall-shooting-lockdown-after-reports-of-active-shooter/#axzz2rQyEnW1i
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@bulainik: I totally believe this to be the truth.
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Hey, Abagond, would you be interested in possibly writing about the insane racism in Korea and Japan? I mean that crap is off the god-damned charts. People are obsessed with looking ‘white’ (skin whitening creams and cosmetics that literally mutilate the face and body so that they can look European), and there is an entire industry behind it. Africans are depicted as monkeys and subhuman savages (‘dumb niggers’ as they call it), and they have literal modern blackface minstrel shows and cartoons where Africans are depicted as stupid and capricious. Not to mention the fact about interracial relationships and the influence of family in Korean society (one of S. Korea’s leading anti-racist group leaders, a guy from India, made headlines when he straight up clocked a Korean guy in the face after said guy called him a ‘mongrel race’ and that his girlfriend, who was Korean, was ‘tainting the bloodline’).
Hell, people in Korea are bursting with a level of racism that makes the average white American looking like a god-damned melting pot of love.
As an example, A K-pop artist – who is followed by many teenagers and young adults in Korea for her songs – recently came out with these fucking borderline psychopath mentally retarded comments on twitter where she called for a holocaust for Hispanics and African Americans to ‘make the world a better, cleaner place’. Here is an actual fucking quote:
“You know what will help Asians earn respect? An Asian version of Adolf Hitler … played by me!“
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2546215/Young-mom-21-fiance-25-shot-dead-Zumiez-skate-shop-murder-suicide-jealous-ex-boyfriend-strapped-handmade-bombs.html
Shooter at Columbia mall is identified. sounds like the young man woke up one day and snapped – what the heck happens?
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@Riverside_Rob
That only attest to me even more the issues that American society faces, but true to American nature…let’s not own up to it. Let’s make it a race problem.
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Here are two stories I am going to share.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2539305/Mother-kills-two-musically-talented-teenaged-children-tragic-murder-suicide.html#ixzz2qPYujWvO
http://wh8te.com/retired-swat-captain-71-shot-cinema-goer-dead-and-injured-wife-who-tried-to-stop-fight-over-texts-at-lone-survivor-screening/
Here are two equal tragedies that have simply been overlooked. There are real problems and issues in American society that frankly should have been examined a long time ago. There is way too much of a disconnect and lack of care for the life of others. Instead you have people more concerned with crime if the criminal is black (AS if skin color is going to make them less of a criminal). What really needs to be done is a microscope needs to be taken to why this is happening in our society. Why are these people snapping? or have they always been this way just overlooked?
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Sharina, some people have an axe to grind so they can’t the real problem for what it is.
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@ Peanut
it seems the chair itself was a recreation by Bjarne Melgaard, of an exhibit done by sculptor/pop artist Alan Jones back in 1969. In the original, all the figures were White. Very very weird stuff to say the least!
http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/01/russian-socialite-sat-on-black-woman-chair.html
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Regarding color discrimination amongst East Asians. I recall reading a report a few years back concerning one Harinder Veriah, a Malayasian Indian woman, who, after being admitted to a Hong Kong hospital for treatment of epilepsy, was allowed to die from neglect due to her having dark brown skin.
The following is a link to the story:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/dec/03/china.theobserver
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Got dang I just saw the image of the black man sitting on the white guy and wow. It is a whole nother level as it is a real person and they are naked. but to me it doesn’t really have the same vibe as the photo of the white woman sitting on the black woman because she was fully dressed in a long sleeve shirt and capris while the black woman chair was barely dressed and had no shirt, which to me plays into the pure white woman vs the jezebel black woman and shows inequality. whereas the men are both naked and the only difference besides race is one is on top the other is on bottom but u see both of them being naked and vulnerable, but with the black woman chair all u see is the black woman being half clothed and vulnerable.
And the weird thing about the black woman chair is that the face is looking up at the white woman looking calm and has its neck craned to look at the white woman. , while the naked white guy was not looking up at the black man but had his eyes closed and his neck back. And the white woman does not look or touch the black woman chair and looks as if she does not notice or care who/what she is sitting on. The black guy in the pic is touching the white guys feet which to me shows that he recognizes he is there even if he is not looking at him.idk the naked men looked more like a couple trying a new position or stretching or something.
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I know the chair was not a real woman… even though it did look real for a second
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For me,if the Black woman chair was conceived as a Black woman chair that a White woman would sit on, then it would be a lot more racially insensitive to me.
But since the Black woman chair is just a copy (reproduction) of a White woman chair created 40 years ago, it seems much less likely that the intent of making the chair was specifically racial.
I’d say the whole thing probably has more to do with Kink than with race.
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hey nerdygirl, its because underneath all the polite “correct” “acceptabe” terms that some people think they are using, they are obscenly uptight and warped with anti interracial sex…sex with white people is what they are uptight about…i dont go hiding under the bush about what scummy truth this is really about…
they dont deserve the respect of a polite conversation…because they would just as much step on on an interracial relationship like its a bug that they dont like
i know how to defend my interracial relationship, i dont need tips from you…ive been interracialy dating a lot longer than you, ive been hearing this rhetoric a lot longer than you, and i know just what it really means…how low and disgusting it really is , and i know exactly how to defend my relationships…this is a war…and the opisite side from me comes in all races and sexes…this i know only too well also
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take a guy like Kiwi here…on another thread, he takes a light joke i made, with no racial conotations and immediatly starts screaming white privalege and racism
so this is where the ypung political agendised movemnt is today? Take a joke and turn it into acuasations of white privalege? when it had nothing to do with race?
That is seriously deluding the affect those terms are meant to deal with
its an embarresment to the real struggle…and shows , people will take their personal dating frustrations and hide behind political active rhetoric and concepts to launch hateful anti inerracial tirades at Asian American women with white men…he has never said a positive thing about Asian American women ..no wonder Asian American women shoot him nasty looks, they can smell his hostility a mile away…this guy rails on interracial sex between Asian women and white men, becuase of his own insecurities with Asian american women
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ok king, but why not sit on a white woman chair or any other race woman? or better yet, why not sit on a chair looking like a man to show how sexist it is to make furniture look like women? And then why release it on mlk day, why not release it earlier, why wait until the day of mlk?
Any other time black women are left out, and we are lucky if we see ourselves or even see toys or dolls that actually look like us, not just dark skinned dolls with european features. I’d rather people keep black women’s name out of their mouths and out of everything than just show us in lower positions, as nannies, maids, prostitutes,and now chairs. All those are things considered lower than, and are controlled and have little value.
The retreat the white feminist was going to have at a plantation, showed how some white women do not care about black women. She was fine with it, didn’t care that it was a place where black people were looked at as objects and property. Didn’t care that it was a place where white women were really elevated over black women, yet she expect people to be fine with it and embrace it. they say all the stuff about sisterhood yet they saw no issue with offending the black sisters of their sisterhood. just as long as the location was nice, who cares about black women being offended. It was long ago but the same concept of white women overlooking other people’s humanity just as long as the house is nice and everything looks good.
And the cake of the black woman that people were eating i guess that would be fine too as long as there were cakes made looking like white people before that.
Oh yes equality is everybody being offended and objectified equally. if it was a white man sitting on a white woman chair that would be sexist, a white woman sits on a white woman chair that would be her objectifying white women. a white person sits on a chair looking like a black person and it is oh well. a black person sits on a chair looking like a black person and it is black on black objectification. but see none of the other things have happened , none of the others released a photo of it making a statement to the world, hey look at me sitting on this chair that looks like a person. oh better make sure it looks like a person that is considered less than to really complete the look.
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comment in moderation ugh. king this is not really about the chair being made, and yes i know there were white women looking furniture, chairs, tables, etc. People make weird ish all the time, but they don’t always broadcast it to the world. She did not make this chair, she posed with it and they released the pic on mlk day of all the days of the year and its almost black history month. the timing is suspect. and they always love to leave black women out of things so why start trying now to include us in their bs.
why is it the main times they want to include black women is when we are objectified, alot of times we see black women left out of things unless we play as maids, slaves, prostitutes., and when we are not maids, slaves, and prostitutes, we are invisible in the media. And the black female characters that don’t fit those narrow views, look more european. so why not use a white woman chair, i mean if that is the original furniture design, why use a black woman chair, i mean they love saying things with poc don’t sell, so why not use white, they use white to sell everything else and to appear on mags.
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King,
“But since the Black woman chair is just a copy (reproduction) of a White woman chair created 40 years ago, it seems much less likely that the intent of making the chair was specifically racial.”
I don’t know how you can create a woman as a chair and not know its sexist. I don’t know how you can create a black women as a chair and not know it’s sexist and racist.
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“For me,if the Black woman chair was conceived as a Black woman chair that a White woman would sit on, then it would be a lot more racially insensitive to me.”
That is the beauty of a post racial society. things are covert, u have to question urself all the time of if something is racist or if they are just jerks. White women have been doing some sly racist ish for a while. Women are better liars than men and it seems are better at hiding or practicing racism. Men are more blunt and overt with things but women are more secretive and act like frenemies.
a white man’s way of objectifying black women and degrading us was ghetto gaggers, a white woman’s way is more subtle. like this and the plantation retreat the feminist planned. then they play dumb and act like they don’t know. oh sorry i didn’t realize this was a plantation the house looks so beautiful. Oh i didn’t know i was sitting on a chair shaped like a black woman oops did not realize the day i released it on was mlk. oopsies, i didn’t know i was standing on ur foot i did not see u there.
Black men sometimes can’t pick up on it because yall are used to white male racism and men’s way of disrespecting. Women when we don’t like somebody, alot of us will act like we are cool but be plotting their demise. why do u think those women stay with their cheating husbands then wait a few more years before they leave and take more money. But men will mostly leave asap when they find out about their girl cheating, they don’t wait to plan and strategize how to really hurt that person back.
that is where white men and women differ and compliment each other because one is the bad cop and the overt aggressor and the other plays good cop and acts like an ally, but is a snake in the grass. One losses trust the other gains it.
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One last thing
It just shows me how some white women act, it was a WHITE MAN that created the furniture of white women thus objectifying them. And instead of going after that white man and idk sitting on a chair that looks like a white man to say hey this is sexist and we are not objects how would u feel if we objectified u, no instead they attack black women and objectify us. And chose to sit on a chair of a black woman, objectifying us, I see it seems everybody is afraid to attack white male supremacy including white women. it seems too many are afraid and would rather attack black women, from the punk black males on youtube to these white women. to white women: black women did not objectify u or keep u from working or voting, so plz leave us alone. To the weak black males: we did not enslave u and take away ur manhood plz leave us alone.
Too many want some power over others yet will not go after the person with the most power to take them down and make sure everybody gets an equal amount of power., when the oppressed become the oppressor.
tsk tsk tsk. they know not to go after white men even when they are the ones objectifying them as the link ebonymonroe posted of Madonna instead of attacking the white males that treated her wrong she chose to attack black men and call them misogynists. They know who put them on their pedestal and they will not attack them but attack for them.
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mstoogood4yall
Man, I was just saying that a minute ago. I realised not too long ago that Black men often can’t pick up on racism from women the way Black women do. They actually usually take their objectification and the passive aggressive nature of racism from women as a compliment and small talk. It doesn’t bother me, as it’s none of my business, but it won’t fly with me personally.
@Asian racism
Woah, that holocaust comment was disgusting. But hey, that hatred will wreck more havoc on their health than it will have any affect on me.
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are you mad? seriously…Jefe made a joke that was definitly racial…I didnt..what is wrong with you..
also, you made your joke after I said I was a brain drain and there was a great void left afterwards never filled again…i didnt make a joke about womens butts
here you go with your falsehoods again…i guess if your so frustrated in your dating life, it messes your logic up
get it straight will ya…your falsehoods take you really low
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ah ok Kiwi…I can live with that
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Hmmm… I’ll just drop this picture here amongst these acrimonious postings and see how long it will take Legion to find it.
Carry on.
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Abagond
Molecular geneticist Eran Elhaik has disproved the genetic link between European Jews and the biblical Hebrews. There is strong evidence that Askhanzi jews are of Turkish and Slavic origin. Thus their claim on the Israeli homeland is …bunk… In fact the modern day Palestinians have more of a genetic link to the biblical Hebrews than those running Israel. Could you do a post on this?
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Haha!!! That didn’t take long Legion! 🙂
She’s a news anchor for NBC.
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@ Legion
Tamron Hall is on MSNBC. That is not even the best picture of her.
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^No, there are PLENTY more pics! (I know… I checked)
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Do you have her number!!?
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The tributes and obituaries that have appeared following the passing of Pete Seeger introduced me to the case of Delbert Tibbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delbert_Tibbs
I was previously unfamiliar with the case. Nice to see a miscarriage of justice with a positive resolution. Obviously the details in the Wiki article are sketchy, but on the evidence (or lack thereof) described it is astonishing that even a while jury could believe that they had delivered justice by convicting on such pathetic grounds.
Mr Seeger wrote a song incorporating poetry written by Mr Tibbs, and campaigned for justice for him and against the death penalty in general.
RIP, Mr Seeger, musician, and decent man. A communist who believed in equality for all people regardless of race, but who opposed violent revolution. He didn’t flinch before government or legal oppression. He walked the walk. Well played, Mr S.
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King, Legion, you are a couple of gold-diggers! Finally equality!
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Legion and King would be the perfect comedy double act. Love em’
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Jacque
Abagond
Molecular geneticist Eran Elhaik has disproved the genetic link between European Jews and the biblical Hebrews. There is strong evidence that Askhanzi jews are of Turkish and Slavic origin.
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Yeah man. And some white Jews will even tell you the original Hebrews from the Bible were black. Thats what made me take the idea seriously.
DISCLOSURE — Im one of those people who USED TO think those “afrocentric guys” were talking out of their ____
(((shakin my head)))
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@ Jacque
No promises, but I will look into it and maybe write a post.
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I love india arie , her voice, her skin, her hair, and her intelligence. She was on point in her open letter talking about the grammys and how great black artists go home empty handed. But at the same time black people should not look to have our music or culture validated by whites, we should validate ourselves and each other.
The music industry promotes white artists over black ones, no matter that the white artists are imitating the black artists. But at the same time black Hollywood has cosigned this bs and given the white artists the black seal of approval and then those artists go on to be more popular than them.
At the same time I think if more black artists go home empty handed and we start to see that our culture and talent are not appreciated coming from us but from others, we will wise up and reinvent ourselves once again. maybe next time we won’t sell it, and will remain in control of what we create. And realize our power, the moment we say something is wack others follow, so if the black artists stopped going to these award shows and had their own others would follow.
http://soulbird-journal.tumblr.com/post/74780046389/the-2014-grammys-open-letter-from-indiaarie
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The Grammies are so political and I hate that. Macklemore if he felt so guilty should let Kendrick Lamar have his grammy. I think he knows deep down Kendrick Lamar got robbed.
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That is why I did not waste my time looking at the grammies. I just did a facebook check and imagine my surprise when a white female from my church was upset about Macklemore winning when Kendrick Lamar “killed it.”
(and yes my white friends crack me up when they get hyped about these things)
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lol sharina
I didn’t watch it either, I don’t watch most of the award shows. I used to watch the bet awards but stopped watching it years ago it seemed to be the only place where black artists were being recognized. but it’s not just the music industry but the movie industry as well.
I won’t watch the Oscars or any of those shows but I’m not going to be surprised if/when 12 years a slave doesn’t win anything, fruitvale wasn’t even nominated. I think the black actors and actresses should stop wasting their money and time going to these events as it is like going to church u get dressed up and sit down lol.
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dang I just looked up the bet awards for last year and macklmore and ryan lewis won for best group. And wtf beyonce won for best female rnb years in a row wow. I wouldn’t be surprised when even bet has white artists mainly winning awards, they already have them coming to the award shows. won’t be surprised when Justin timberfake has best male rnb award on bet. when white artists start winning on bet it is a wrap for black artists.
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I’m disgusted that Kendrick Lamar didn’t win, but I don’t hold it against Macklemore. Eminem has won best rap album 5 times. But when all is said and done, even Black awards shows like the BET awards only select cross-over Black artist as winners now, like Jay z and Beyonce, so there is no space for Black artists unless they’re accepted into the fold of a White audience.
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(http://www.carelle.com/boutique/collection/25/detail?utm_source=Say%20Media%20Style%201&utm_medium=Say%20Media%20Style%201&utm_campaign=Say%20Media%20Style%201)
white people really think like this
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^^^ copied wrong link ^^^
(http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/it-happened-to-me-there-are-no-black-people-in-my-yoga-classes-and-im-uncomfortable-with-it)
white people really think like this
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white people really think like this
Is that your company? Could I get a discount? Always looking for a bargain.
That second article was hilarious! I would have laughed in her face or cussed her out(depending on the quality of sales at Macy’s). Actually Black peoples’ yoga is twerking! We twerk for breakfast, lunch and dinner, young old, male, female. In fact I dislocated my hip twerking last week. It’s a great form of meditation!
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this one is pretty brutal:
http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/cut-on-camera-cop-slices-off-young-mothers-artificial-hair
“Cut on Camera: Warren cop slices off young mother’s hair weave”
i don’t get the motivation for this, she should have been in the hospital, i mean how much damage could you do to a $50 a night hotel room? probably a infraction in terms of $$$
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@ Riverside Rob: Comment deleted for insulting language.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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Michael
I just read that article, the Yoga one. Weird. That woman’s ‘fears’ were manifested all because she was in close proximity to a black woman.
Honestly, the woman who wrote the article reminds me of dave who comments on here. Pretending that they are empathetic on the one hand but giving in to their irrational fears on the other hand.
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The woman at yoga was too full of herself. Omg she’s looking because she’s jealous of my body and hates me cuz i’m beautiful. rofl she went home and cried, really instead of crying how about helping. I used to go to water aerobics and the people were nice and helped newcomers, so how is that so hard to just say hey do u need help, and say yeah it took me a while to figure it out but if u keep at it you’ll be doing this in no time. I think some people lose common sense or don’t have any at all.
“What could I do to help her? If I were her, I thought, I would want as little attention to be drawn to my despair as possible—I would not want anyone to look at me or notice me”
Answer: say hello do u need help? u are not her, u are not an overweight woman or a black woman, and if she came to the dang class obviously she wants to learn otherwise she would’ve stayed home or worked out somewhere else. as for the don’t notice me thing, I think most people want to be acknowledged just not judged for their appearance and don’t want to be stared at or have people avoid them.
The sista was probably feeling lost and like what do I do, I look like a fool I wonder if she ever went back to that class. in those situations it is best to get help, the instructor should’ve helped her as she more than likely had to spend money on the class and the instructors are supposed to show how things are done. But other people can help too if they see someone is struggling not just pretend they are not there. The woman needs to ask herself would she or has she helped somebody else do the yoga poses if they were not overweight or black.
I’ve never tried yoga and probably won’t, I like working out at home or going for a walk. And idk I see people that do yoga and a lot of them are fit but not toned I wanna be toned like serena Williams or michelle Obama lol.
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That piece in XOXO Jane about the yoga studio with the black woman in it. I just rolled my eyes. It was too stupid.
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oh yeah well i been on something like ‘light-skinned’ i guess some people say or ‘light-complected’ but idk lightskin darkskin? is how you say around here
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The google doodle celebrating Harriet Tubman was nice.
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@mary burrell
I had to do the same thing, but I loved that for once the comment sections reminded the writer of how stupid it actually was.
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on second thought, only a very few will refer to a white person as ‘light-skinned’, it is still ‘white’ or ‘black’ but it does happen
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They say “fair skinned White people” and “olive skinned White people,” in the UK.
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Kiwi
I gave up talking to other Asians about race a long time ago. I usually get hostility and they jump straight to white people’s defense. I swear, some Asians would take a bullet for white people.
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Kiwi,
Ive found it to be much more productive to connect with people “where they are” instead of where you “want them to be.”
For example, when I attend anti racism seminars and we form up into working groups, if we focus DIRECTLY on racism, it always turns into a huge nonwhite squabble with the various non white people all focusing on each others faults.
But the one thing we ALL agree on is: “If I was white I would be making more MONEY!”
Everyone of us had a story that validated that statement
So instead of trying to “shove race down peoples throats”; I often start with money, and before you know it, we are in agreement about racism being the problem. And from there we can work on COUNTER RACISM strategies, techniques and LANGUAGE.
Trying to get a nonwhite person to talk about racism when they don’t want to is often worse than just not discussing it at all.
The key is to wait for THEM to raise it because guess what?
They will do it without ANY prompting.
BTW: when the Asian person who:
“jumps straight to white people’s defense” and “would take a bullet for white people….”
comes to you to complain about racism; try to resist the urge to rub their nose in it. I know its difficult but learning the hard way is BETTER than never learning at all.
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@thwack: I noticed you are new here, I enjoy your commentary.
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The Irish say “Pale Irish” for lightskinned whites, or “sallow” for “olive”.
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Sometimes people say porcelain or tanned skin in the UK.
I agree @ Mary. I shall be looking foward to thwack’s coming posts.
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sallow usually means like ‘sickly’ as in ‘has jaundice’ or something in the us, darker-complected whites are referred to as ‘swarthy’, although that is a little dated. i guess i’m a little out of touch with internal white people complection descriptors…
‘olive skinned’ is fairly specific, mediterranean or some mestizo skin tones, and that was how katniss from hunger games was described, i just finished reading ‘catching fire’
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v8driver
i guess i’m a little out of touch with internal white people complection descriptors
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v8driver,
Are you a white person?
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RIP to Phillip Seymore Hoffman, he was a remarkable talent. So very sad.
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I want give a big “Congrats” to the Seattle Seahawks for giving Denver a Superbowl a’s whooping!!!
the “underdogs” of the NFL season with a black/NA quarterback that no one wanted… a lot of people lost money tonight 🙂
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/wilson-relishes-underdog-role-proves-critics-wrong-article-1.1600050
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@ Peanut.
I read your blog piece and it ended with this.
” Of course, white men are far from perfect and yes, some can be ignorant about Black people, but emotionally, i cannot stop wanting that feeling of being protected and safe and i know a white man can more readily provide that, ironically, because of the very privilege that has historically disenfranchised black people as a collective.”
My relationship with my wife isn’t based because I’m white and privileged. If she read your piece I doubt that she would agree..
I think that any man who is emotionally mature and has a decent income can make a women feel protected and safe. It is mutually shared Intimacy that makes what my wife and I have special.
I think any black women seeking to date a white guy for the reasons you’ve outlined seems to me to be setting herself up for unfulfilled expectations.
My wife and I met online and what we both had in common was hiking. She had pictures of herself in Tibet and I had pictures hiking Whiney. Meeting any women who likes to hike up and down mountains, sleep in tents ect is hard to find in any race.
Through her I came to have an understanding of racial oppression but I will always think like a white man even though I am anti racist.
I do hope that you do find a man that fulfills your expectations but would caution against expecting white men to readily provide anything more easily then any other race.
I understand the systemic nature of my protection but an emotional bonding between two people seems to me to be a separate issue.
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@v8driver:
What do you think of the Hunger Games books so far, V8?
I read them last year – my kids throw endless book recommendations at me and nag me until I give in and read them.
I thought HG was a little bit clumsy compared to some of the other Young Adult books I’ve read in recent years – some themes are handles in a pretty clunky way – but still a worthwhile trilogy. I can imagine it prompting some interesting discussions in schools. Good to have a strong female proponent who is not just a guy’s sidekick or girlfriend.
It is great to see challenging, uncompromising stuff written for young people. A few years back Philip Pullman’s ‘His Dark Materials’ series impressed the hell out of me. Strong writing with no patronising undercurrents.
Another YA book that my youngest daughter bought for me was John Green’s ‘The Fault in Our Stars’. A very fine book, but heartbreaking. I still ache.
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@peanut hello!
@thwack yes, i am ‘white’, mostly irish. that is my picture and link to my public fb is on there too under my name.
@budhuu, well it is a book for 8th graders, basically reads like steven king, havent’ seen the movies, and i also liken the writing style to george rr martin in that there is all this ancillary stuff building and building, and the arenas take place in the last 60 pages or so of the book, like songs of fire and ice (particularly as you get deeper into the series), you have to read 800 pages to get to the last battle. I have mockingjay on hold at the library yet
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@budhuu HG/catching fire treats the very touchy subject of an adolescent girl on the brink of hormonal imbalance gently and adroitly, with regards to that aspect of it, with some class even
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idk i’m feelin some type of way, some type of writing coming on, need to get this one out but it’s not ready, still rattling around in my head!
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v8driver
@thwack yes, i am ‘white’,
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Well then why are you pretending to be confused about what a white person is?
“i guess i’m a little out of touch with internal white people complection descriptors”
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@ v8
Yes, but not everywhere.
Sallow doesn’t have that “sickly” connotation in every country where English is spoken, and not in Hiberno-English. Some of the words and expressions heard in Hiberno-English are direct translations from the Irish.
And for historical reasons. The Irish were “racialized” by the British (English and Scots), and their colonialist anthropology (pseudo-science crap) came up with an “Index of Nigrescence”, which was designed to measure how close the Irish were to being Negro.
I suppose “sallow” is just the normal word here for tanned white. An example:
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/magazine/column/may2_11.htm
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I guess most whites will, yes, say, ‘tan’ or ‘has a tan’.
@thwack just sayin, most white people just don’t even think about complection, know what i mean, it’s just ‘white’ or ‘not’ in most cases
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whereas, if i am trying to explain who i’m talking about ie a black person to another black person, it usually goes with gender, height, weight, hair style, and light- medium- or dark-skin
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Michael Jon Barker
My relationship with my wife isn’t based because I’m white and privileged.
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But even if it was, you would not tell us.
For some black females, just your ability to help her produce a light skinned baby with “good hair” (who will be subject to less mistreatment based on color) is the only qualification you need to sleep with her; have you ever heard of the term “trick baby?”
When I first met the white woman my younger brother was planning to marry I was kinda shocked at how “homely” she was. Not only that, but she was divorced with 7 and 9 year old daughters and she was 4 years older than him. My brother is 6ft, light skinned and handsome, with a decent job…
But I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to get accused of being a “hater”.
Later, after her “evil” came out and they got divorced, I asked him how they met.
He told me she was the book keeper at his job and one day she SHOWED HIM evidence that newly hired white guys were starting with a higher salary than he had after 3 years.
My brother used this information to get a raise AND a promotion. But the white woman used the information to get a husband;
my younger brother.
He was very proud of what his white wife did FOR HIM and thought it was proof she was not a racist. So I asked him if she ever provided such information to the black FEMALES at his job?
He said he didn’t know. I asked him if he had ever asked her?
(now the conversation is getting very uncomfortable; he’s just staring at the ground…)
My point is, you can’t expect white people to replace the system of racism with a system of justice as long as there are tangible SEXUAL benefits to white people for maintaining the system.
My brother is on his 2nd older than him, divorced with children from a previous marriage, not very attractive white wife.
Meanwhile, there are many young, attractive, thin black females who never get to get married once!
Matter of fact, some white women prefer to use black dating sites because they know they can get a ton of responses and better quality man than they can on a “mainstream site.
They go over there and poach all the good black men right out from under the sistahs.
(((shakin my head)))
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@bulanik very interesting, you have a really wide range of knowledge
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v8driver
@thwack just sayin, most white people just don’t even think about complection, know what i mean, it’s just ‘white’ or ‘not’ in most cases
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No, I do NOT know what you mean because I do not know what the criteria is that a white person uses to determine if another person is a white person.
Will you tell us what it is?
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@v8, a kind word, thank you. Commentary on this blog is very informative and always very interesting.
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@thwack, i’m curious, now, are you a white person, i mean it really don’t matter, but i was thinking maybe you are mixed? idk, the other day my friend called me a ‘cra*er in a black man’s body’, he was drunk, and i found it quite comical, but seriously, i guess that is sort of the vibe i have been on lately, ‘what is white’, and about which i need to write, there really aren’t a lot of white people around here where i live, it is an all black neighborhood, and as i get more involved with the neighborhood and people that live here, i think we are all struggling to define that, i don’t think people are uncomfortable about it, although there are (very few) people i meet who are just generally creeped out by white people in general, overall it’s sort of like a ‘thread’ that gets picked up from time to time, we don’t really let it get in the way of business, know what i mean?
thwack, idk, you are putting me on the spot and that is a policy statement, and i’m not ready to respond to that at this time, but it is in progress, i am not ducking the issue
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@thwack strictly from a phenotypical perspective, my benchmark was ‘white people have pink nipples’ for a long time but i had too much emotion, miles, and time between where i was at then, i mean that sounds so effin racist it’s unbelievable, and that was more about how i conceptualized my ex-wife’s middle eastern lineage as she is jewish, and polish, so that’s where that came from, but i have seen that used on white power blogs some times and that’s not where i’m at now, but some kind of way i feel overwhelming compelled to say that. what is white? i don’t even know any more, honestly. it means how people relate to me based on their perceptions to me most of all
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Bulanik is like an old wise man on a mountain or something. You should charge.
thwack are you male or female? If you don’t mind me asking.
Michael Jon Barker, all this time, I pictured you as Black. Lol.
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*moddied, not complaining on that one
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Old? Wise? A man?
Oh, none of the above at all! 😀 Still…so sweet of you, Ebony, thank you.
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Ebonymonroe
thwack are you male or female?
—————————————————————————————————–
Im male.
Can you please tell me (please be honest) what it is about my comments that gives you cause to suspect I could be female?
thank you.
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Lol @Bulanik
You could book a holiday in Tibet, glue on a beard and hire someone to whisper of your legacy of wisdom through villages, and then charge for every visitor who comes up the mountain who’s come seeking advice and knowledge. You could get paid.
@thwack
Honestly? Well, you speak very passionately about Black women, and your tone, absolute, not idealistic political correctness. This is something I usually find is exclusive to Black women.
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Ebonymonroe
@thwack
Honestly? Well, you speak very passionately about Black women, and your tone, absolute, not idealistic political correctness. This is something I usually find is exclusive to Black women.
——————————————————————————————————-
So if you are a black male who speaks passionately about black women; you may be mistaken for a black female by a black female?
Maybe this is why black males don’t speak very passionately about Black women?
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@ Kiwi
I have heard of “Leopold’s Ghost” but have not read it yet.
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A show of hands please:
How many of you are doing a presentation for Black History Month at a local school in your area?
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@thwack
No, no, no, I have come across Black men who speak up for Black women often. Particularly on this blog, and my dad is like that. But the “tone of defence,” interpreting attacks on Black women as a personal attack on you, as a Black man, that kind of tone is unusual. And in many ways it extends beyond Black women to all groups outside of the one one is personally a part of.
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i reckon when you try to cut out cancer you are going to see some ugly stuff
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@ Thwack
“Meanwhile, there are many young, attractive, thin black females who never get to get married once!”—–Amen!!
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@thwack
“But even if it was, you would not tell us.”
I attempt to always be honest and in social media use my real name and profile. That said as a white person I may be blind to some things on this blog that to others is obvious. In the matter of my own relationship I’m speaking of my own experience which may not be like everybody else’s. That doesn’t mean that underling racial issues don’t exist.
If I read something on this blog that makes me feel uncomfortable that’s a red flag that I may need to addressee something in my own life rather then react to it defensively.
“Thwack said: “My point is, you can’t expect white people to replace the system of racism with a system of justice as long as there are tangible SEXUAL benefits to white people for maintaining the system.”
That’s a deep statement that I need to think on a bit.
I view social justice as hard to attain within the system because of the anthropocentric nature of the empire. White Western culture is the standard by which all things are judged. It doesn’t seem to matter if we have a black president, black attorney general and black members in the house and senate, the flow of black males into the prison industrial complex continues unabated. You would think their would have been at least a hiccup.
Thwark asked V8driver
“No, I do NOT know what you mean because I do not know what the criteria is that a white person uses to determine if another person is a white person.”
“Will you tell us what it is?”
If your speaking about what were originally marginalized white groups like the Irish, Italians and Jews and when they became white their are threads about this in the blog.
As far as words describing people’s color that’s pretty subjective like trying to describe the color yellow. Our founding fathers though had no problem using such words in describing their vision of white supremacy as being the light of the world.
Benjamin Franklin had this to say:
“Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? Why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.”
Today when we think of Swedes we think of tall white people who live where it’s cold. What did Franklin mean by “swarthy”? Maybe their is a layer of class added here meaning that poor whites who originally came here toiled in the fields and the sun made them swarthy.
So while Franklin was content to bask in his own enlightenment as a man of letters, inventor and man of science, the working class were seen as a tolerable evil.
“Why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America,” Interesting choice of words describing people as human livestock and maybe alludes to the rape and sexual coercion of a people to increase their numbers for the benefit of slavers.
Thwark also said
“But the one thing we ALL agree on is: “If I was white I would be making more MONEY!”
I would agree with that 100%. I don’t have an extended education beyond a few classes in college and as someone who built his own business over my life it is clear to me that I wouldn’t have been able to do that if I was not white.
Ebonymonroe said:
“But the “tone of defence,” interpreting attacks on Black women as a personal attack on you, as a Black man, that kind of tone is unusual. And in many ways it extends beyond Black women to all groups outside of the one one is personally a part of.”
That’s what I try to strive for.
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v8driver
@thwack, i’m curious, now, are you a white person
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No I am NOT a white person. What sparked your curiosity? (and I remind you to tell the truth because other white people have already given it to me)
v8driver
what is white? i don’t even know any more,
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The question is NOT “what is white?”
The question is: What is a white PERSON?
Are YOU saying you USED TO KNOW what a white person is but now you don’t anymore?
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oh one more thing first and foremost i am a miscegnate, white boy say “coal burner”
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Michael Jon Barker
If your speaking about what were originally marginalized white groups like the Irish, Italians and Jews and when they became white their are threads about this in the blog.
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No thats not the information Im seeking; in addition to being unsworn and outside this court making it hearsay.
You are here on the witness stand as a sworn EXPERT WHITE PERSON. You are QUALIFIED to answer for a white person.
I want YOUR answer out of YOUR mouth.
(and don’t forget you already placed yourself under oath in front of all these black people reading this thread)
What is the criteria you use to determine if another person is a white person?
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It seems to be a common thing here that people like to know if other participants are PoC or white. Bearing in mind the nature of much of the discourse, and the number of drive-by trolls that crop up, that is probably not surprising.
I try not to ask, and I try to proceed without regard to that question, but I fail. Maybe it’s partly the environment, but the curiosity seems to set in.
I have noticed that I wonder less about people who seem to be established and accepted by long-term members of this community. I am more often curious about the race and gender of people who seem to be new (and I am a relative n00b myself). Maybe it’s a trust thing.
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@thwack to lie is to do oneself a disfavor, if you don’t know, there’s always google, i am many things, i have a problem telling a lie unless you are asking me for money, i do lie in that circumstance, no question.
i just want to know what you are getting at, i don’t think i have all the context. with regards to the denotation of your question, and from what i’ve learned here and around the way, it is someone that claims to be white is a direct beneficiary of the sunset of the british empire. did i stutter? idk wtf you are and you seem to be reticent to talk about that, not me.
maybe i never knew what a white person was before a couple years ago. who are you, “i really want to know” no not really, you are getting my blood pressure up about 16 points that much is clear
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v8driver
, you are getting my blood pressure up about 16 points that much is clear
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OK v8driver, that is not my purpose. I have no further questions for you at this time.
Thank you.
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@v8driver: I enjoyed reading “The Hunger Games” I have to read “Mockingjay” and “Catching Fire”.
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@ thwack
You said “You are here on the witness stand as a sworn EXPERT WHITE PERSON. You are QUALIFIED to answer for a white person.”
I can offer you my opinion but I can’t claim to be qualified to answer for all white people any more then a black person can claim to speak for all black people.
The Western culture we live in is full of white people who believe they are qualified experts but I lack their enlightenment. I can’t speak on their behalf.
Your question was:
“What is the criteria you use to determine if another person is a white person?”
My personal view is that white people are defined by largely European heritage.
On top of that you can layer the direct or indirect economic and social privileges that benefit white people in a white centric empire.
The criteria I used to arrive at such a supposition was empirical evidence. The evidence is objective and can be observed in history as well as substantiated by the testimony of witnesses both living and dead.
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“I can offer you my opinion but I can’t claim to be qualified to answer for all” white
———————–
no, no, no Michael Jon Barker. Im not asking you to answer for ALL WHITE PEOPLE. Im only asking you to answer for one white person, and that white persons name is Michael Jon Barker;
Do you know who that is?
Don’t tell me what other white people say, tell me what YOU say since you say you are a white person.
Now, lets review how Michael (a self identified white person) answers the question: “What is the criteria YOU use to determine if another person is a white person?”
Sentence — by — sentence
___________________________________
1. My personal view is that white people are defined by largely European heritage.
2. On top of that you can layer the direct or indirect economic and social privileges that benefit white people in a white centric empire.
3. The criteria I used to arrive at such a supposition was empirical evidence.
4. The evidence is objective and can be observed in history as well as substantiated by the testimony of witnesses both living and dead.
_______________________________________
Now pay attention because Michael is a smart white man, but he’s not that smart.
He wrote 4 sentences in reponse to my question. The first thing Im looking for is the first person personal pronoun that makes himself the SUBJECT; that word is “I”. How many times does he use it and where does he use it?
In sentence #1 he speaks of “My personal view”. Now while “MY” is a possessive determiner, he skillfully uses it to possess something which is indeterminate — “largely European heritage.”
WTF is that? a peice of paper? A last name? A coat of arms?
So sentence #1 is a non answer and I will explain why at the end.
In sentence #2 he completely takes himself out of the picture AND PUTS YOU IN IT by making you the subject AND the object through the use of the pronoun “YOU” — he’s telling YOU what YOU CAN DO; not what he does.
Pretty slick eh?
Not too slick for me. Strike sentence two as irrelevant.
Now, sentence #3 is the only one where he uses the personal pronoun that makes him the subject of what he is talking about — “I”. But in a pretty slick move, he shifts to the PAST TENSE with the words “used” and “was”; WHY DID HE DO THAT?
Im not gonna tell you because then I hafta tell him. But I will give you a hint, he did it for a reason.
But the key is, sentence 3 provides no useful information regarding the requested CRITERIA.
So strike it.
Sentence 4 contain no personal pronouns at all in addition to no actual CRITERIA he says he uses for how he determines if another person is a white person.
What Michael Jon Barker has provided is a carefully crafted non answer. You wanna know why?
Because white children don’t need any of the information in his 4 sentences to practice racism; and Michael was once a white child. When do you think he found out he is a white person?
6th grade?
High school?
Yesterday?
You think a white child has to know all that in order to know who to mistreat on the basis of color?
Now, for all you house _______ers who think I being too hard on the “white man” I’ll tell you why this is very important.
When you are on the job and you keep getting passed up for promotions by less qualified people, ESPECIALLY white people; when you sue, your case is gonna hinge on getting an answer to this question:
“What criteria do YOU use to determine if a person gets a promotion?”
On a lot of jobs, people just promote their friends, or which ever hot female puts out the most…
Michael didn’t give you any USEFUL criteria, and even if he slipped and did, he did it in such a way as to take that FUNCTION off of himself:
*****The evidence is objective and can be observed in history as well as substantiated by the testimony of witnesses both living and dead.****
See what I mean?
This is who you people are dealing with, and Michael isn’t even a really smart white man.
Im not going to ask him any more questions about this. But I may do a follow up post demonstrating the logic behind why a why person doesn’t want to answer the question:
“What is the criteria you use to determine if another person is a white person?”
White people cannot maintain a system of racism white supremacy if they cannot accurately determine if other people are white persons.
They would very quickly begin to look like us.
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@buddhuu
I find myself more pleasantly surprised by White commenters engaging on the blog with humanity and an open mind than suspicious.
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^^Could one of them be about,,,
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoT1rsJjxZc)
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Thank you Thwack for your useful critique. You apparently have a better grasp of the English language then I do.
When I referred to “largely European heritage.” I’m referring to white people everywhere. You see that as an indeterminate answer.
It doesn’t matter whether I use the word “I” or “you” that doesn’t change that WE live in a world where white people benefit from a white centric empire.
Sentence three should have been in the present tense not past tense. I’m saying that the reason I believe these things is because their is empirical evidence proving that white supremacy exists.
“and Michael was once a white child. When do you think he found out he is a white person?”
I think I was racially conscious by three or four. I think that white culture gets broadcast world wide and white is the standard of beauty. It is consciously projected through out society. It’s why for example black girls will choose a white doll over a black doll.
“What criteria do YOU use to determine if a person gets a promotion?”
In my company it’s based on seniority as well as who was able to speak English well enough to communicate with our customers.I have had the same employees who have worked for me for 20 years or so. My employees run my business like they own it because they make a good living at it. It’s horizontally run and I tell people that were all growing old together.
“Michael didn’t give you any USEFUL criteria, and even if he slipped and did, he did it in such a way as to take that FUNCTION off of himself:”
It does seem like I am on the outside looking in.
“White people cannot maintain a system of racism white supremacy if they cannot accurately determine if other people are white persons.”
I don’t know if I would agree with that completely.
The Roman empire forbid dressing slaves differently from Romans because the number of slaves was almost as great as the number of free Roman citizens and they feared internal rebellion. That would seem to support your point.
On the other hand if every white person disappeared off the face of the Earth it would take a generation to get over the deeply held conception that white is beautiful. That’s how deeply I think it’s ingrained not just in the western empire but throughout the world.
I also think the system is set up so non whites are allowed a seat at the table if they maintain the empire.
The empire has a host of allies who are non white who get paid to make sure their countries resources get delivered to western controlled corporations. Our dollar works as an imperial currency and controls both labor and resources from afar.
In the U.S. the number one attack on POC is the prison industrial complex and the never ending flow of prisoners into the System. Holder has said he plans on releasing prisoners who have been incarcerated more then thirty years which sounds good except that he’s doing it to make room for a whole new round of younger prisoners.
And then you have the school system which rotates sub standard teaches to poor school districts rather then fire them and the fact that their schools are underfunded.
And if your a POC looking for start up cash the banks will find reasons to not approve it.
As I see it the house needs to be burnt down. It doesn’t matter who’s in the house because that doesn’t change the nature of the house. A whole new house needs to be built that’s not a reflection of white supremacy. It needs to have an economic system free from coercion and a justice system that protects it’s citizens.
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@Thwack.
I think you made your point that white people process information differently.
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My point of view is that all people groups collude with “White supremacist patriarchal capitalism,” (as Bell Hooks calls it).
I tend to approach it from the understanding of racism being something that is socialised in all people. If POC, who are the victims of it, reinforce and perpetuate it, how much more likely is it that White people, who benefit from it, will struggle to reject and undo it.
Because, as a POC, I cannot honestly say I don’t frequently encounter individuals in my own community who are not in collusion with White supremacy in language and ideology, I tend to look at the continued life span of White supremacy as it pertains to both White people and POC, as rocks, glass house.
I have a sneaky suspicion it would take more than a single generation, and I am not optimistic that it would be done away with, at all. But only replaced with a hierarchal system predicated on colour, hair texture, and (what are considered to be) European features’ castes.
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Thwack,
“So if you are a black male who speaks passionately about black women; you may be mistaken for a black female by a black female?
Maybe this is why black males don’t speak very passionately about Black women?”
Is it really that bad? To be mistaken for a black woman…on a blog?
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@Kiwi,
Muah-ha-ha-ha. I think of those men who talk to themselves in the NYC subway stations and trains.
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*Looks at Legion’s post in shock*
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@Ebonymonroe:
One of the problems with white supremacy is that so many white people are not consciously aware of its existence. When made aware, most refuse to believe it.
The default position, even amongst white people who would consider themselves anti-racist, seems to be a state of blissful, and wilful, ignorance. It is not even denial. It is less honest than that.
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@ Legion
“Thwack managed to make a point?” More like I got served. 🙂
I think Thwac proved his point that white people can’t reasonably answer “What is the criteria you use to determine if another person is a white person?”
White people seem themselves as raceless and the default standard of society becomes the criteria to see the world through. As a white person I can’t experience racism or have it effect me emotionally as it effects POC. That’s means racism is seen as a function and as an objective truth that’s detached from personal experience.
Thwach has challenged me to think differently not so much in what to think but rather how I think it. How I process information.
I don’t think supremacy is found in the DNA of white people. Rather it is a learned process of domination that’s starts the moment a child is born.
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@ Jefe
I have a question for you about emerging markets on the 100 million thread.
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Solesearch
Is it really that bad? To be mistaken for a black woman…on a blog?
————————————————————————————————-
Yes; but not just on a blog.
This human value hierarchy is very clearly demonstrated everywhere; but in the digital world the contrast is stark.
For example, with the exception of dating or black blogs, most participants will NOT reveal themselves to be a nonwhite person unless forced to. This is understandable since to do so opens a person up to mistreatment based on color.
Same thing with being female; many of them use gender neutral names like “Chris” in order to avoid mistreatment on the basis of sex.
You can make the same comment under two different names, one male and one black female. The statement made under the black female name will be attacked, challenged, criticized…
While the same statement made by what people assume is a white male will be given a pass.
I know a black woman who got in a fight with her daughter over giving her grand daughter a “African sounding” name. She was worried about what would happen when people see the name on a job application…
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Thwack,
Ok, I see what you mean.
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George Ryder
it has been absolutely 100 percent proven that job applicants with black sounding names are less likely to be invited to interview
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But the Creator of all that is known and unknown does have a wicked sense of irony.
He allowed a black person named BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA to become president of the United States.
LOL
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@ Legion
Okay, okay, okay!!!
It might be a post entitled “Winning The Case but Loosing the Market”
And it would be a about how Black Americans often depend on Legal (Nationally Legislated) remedies to racism but fail to see the importance of the Marketing aspect of fixing problems, and removing hinderances to opportunity.
I’d go into how huge mega-corporations consider image management and public relations to be every bit, if not more important than simply winning cases. I’d then go into how the most powerful nations on earth spend fortunes in media control and diplomacy to manage and project a given national image.
Then I’d make the case how very foolish it is for Blacks to believe things like “I don’t care what White people think” because what they are really doing is simply acquiescing to being globally defined by others. By ignoring how image effects everything, even the way that laws are interpreted and obeyed we become weaker—not more independent.
I’d then make a case why and how Blacks should care about how we are perceived by the world as a group and take a look at the hundreds of years of “bad marketing” that persists. I’d then explain how if no new narrative is introduced, our slandered image will continue to effect our collective opportunities and freedoms worldwide, until such time as we begin to care what people think, because it directly affects how people act.
Okay, satisfied, Mr. Legion!
Surely now I may return to Tamron Hall? 🙂
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^ or maybe just a good eye.
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@ George Ryder
In many ways, I would think. But to be effective “the ways” have to be unified and meaningful. In other words, if I (as an individual) do not buy Levi’s jeans, or Campbell’s soup, or Mercedes Benz automobiles, nobody is going to miss my money, or even know what I am doing. The gesture is symbolic but wholly ineffective. Now, if *ALL* Black people where to somehow, magically unite against Tide Detergent, then maybe that would make a significant financial dent.
Bear in mind that we’re only talking about what is an effective counter-marketing strategy. However, if a company makes you sick, of course you just don’t buy from them, in order to avoid the associated nausea…
Abercrombie and Fitch
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Haha.. speaking of counter-marketing…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O95DBxnXiSo#t=126)
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@King and George Ryder
Satanforce did a piece of a similar topic on his blog on civil rights being a matter of public relations.
As far as the question posed, I think the only way to circumvent the mismanagement of the image of the Black community, in general, is for there to be a rise in Black owned businesses, serious/credible news media outlets, Black owned film production companies and studios, record companies, and TV channels. It’s the only way it will happen. The only way we ended up with the Spike Lee movie era and the socially conscious Hip hop era was through these means.
While I do agree that perception is in many ways, paramount, you have to bear in mind that anytime you have anything regarding the present human condition as it pertains to social trends, while numerous communities contend with the same thing, and often in equal amounts, (sometimes even in greater amounts), when it comes to the Black community’s contention with it, it’s labeled as a Black pathology.
1. African American women are number one in college enrollment, and African American men have now surpassed White male college enrollment.
2. Black (African) foreign students who have pursued university education Stateside, have been achieving the greatest grades and test results out of all foreign exchange students, but are still the least likely to find employment out of all foreign students studying higher education in America.
3. 75% of African American women are wed by age 35, and mostly, to African American men. The out of wedlock birthrate in the African American community has dropped by 1/4, the only reason why the amount of out of wedlock births make up 75% of the total of children born to African American parents, is because while the Black community has slashed its illegitimate birth rate by 1/4, wed African American couples have cut back even further, by a staggering 50%. If that wasn’t enough, statistically, Black men have recently been shown to spend the most amount of time with their children.
4. Crime rates have dropped in the Black community. Also, the Black community has been shown to be one of the most conservative when it comes to policies like the right to own f!re@rms.
The Black community has progressively been making great strides, whether it be educationally, occupationally, domestically. But despite this, misinformation derived from cemented stereotypes, don’t shift, instead they’re proselytized all the more.
The only way this would really work is if the Black community managed to be uniquely and collectively more ideal than all other communities, which just doesn’t seem feasible to me. Especially when it’s often the most vulnerable, particularly economically.
@George Ryder
Whether it’s through expressions of hatred or the mirroring of White supremacist hierarchy structures, (such as colourism), POC also react with the same blissful ignorance and denial when confronted with it, and just continue about their day intent on perpetuating the same languages and ideologies of White supremacy. So I am not convinced of any real difference. The only difference is that POC don’t actually benefit from the paradigms of White supremacist oppression. My perspective is that White supremacism, patriarchy, destructive forms of capitalism (like institutional privatization:the prison industrial complex, banking operating outside the confines of some kind of government accountability), we are all in collusion with it, not necessarily personally, but all people groups are not exempt from supporting it . . . in my humble opinion.
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^^^
*My bad, last paragraph to @buddhuu not George Ryder.
buddhuu
@Ebonymonroe:
[…]I tend to approach it from the understanding of racism being something that is socialised in all people. If POC, who are the victims of it, reinforce and perpetuate it, how much more likely is it that White people, who benefit from it, will struggle to reject and undo it. […]
One of the problems with white supremacy is that so many white people are not consciously aware of its existence. When made aware, most refuse to believe it.
The default position, even amongst white people who would consider themselves anti-racist, seems to be a state of blissful, and wilful, ignorance. It is not even denial. It is less honest than that.
………………………………………….
Whether it’s through expressions of hatred or the mirroring of White supremacist hierarchy structures, (such as colourism), POC also react with the same blissful ignorance and denial when confronted with it, and just continue . . . blah blah blah
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Ebonymonroe,
“If that wasn’t enough, statistically, Black men have recently been shown to spend the most amount of time with their children.”
Isn’t that of fathers who don’t live with their children?
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George Ryder
I suspect that this effect, to a large degree, can also be explained by class and culture.
To wit, I’d bet that you’d get many more job interview invitations as “George” than as “Goober”, “Cooter”, or “Seadawg”.
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@Randy
An ethnic sounding name is not “cooter” “Goober” or any of the basic ridiculousness you tried to compare it to.
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Seadawg Livingston Greyson? Hired!!! [Investment Banker]
Cooter Gene Libby? Hired!!! [Republican Political Advisor]
Goober F. Horatio? Hired!!! [Tax Attorney]
Jamaal Jackson? Not qualified.
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Cooter Gene Libby? Hired!!! [Republican Political Advisor]
Pardon me, but aren’t you refering to SCOOTER G. Libby?
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George:
it has been absolutely 100 percent proven that job applicants with black sounding names are less likely to be invited to interview.
(http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html)
“The results indicate large racial differences in callback rates to a phone line with a voice mailbox attached and a message recorded by someone of the appropriate race and gender. Job applicants with white names needed to send about 10 resumes to get one callback; those with African-American names needed to send around 15 resumes to get one callback. This would suggest either employer prejudice or employer perception that race signals lower productivity.
The 50 percent gap in callback rates is statistically very significant, Bertrand and Mullainathan note in Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination (NBER Working Paper No. 9873). It indicates that a white name yields as many more callbacks as an additional eight years of experience. Race, the authors add, also affects the reward to having a better resume. Whites with higher quality resumes received 30 percent more callbacks than whites with lower quality resumes. But the positive impact of a better resume for those with Africa-American names was much smaller.”
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George Ryder:
If I owned a company I promise I wouldn’t act like that though…
Best way mate – ‘talent’ comes from people from different backgrounds and walks of life.
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George Ryder
Yes, I suspect so. Thus we observe a confounding variable when “black-sounding” names are used as a proxy for “black people”.
In both cases, such names may imply a lower class, and a cultural distance from a perceived “educated business norm”.
Someone might argue, “even if that’s true, such names only potentially indicate the parents’ class and culture.”
I’d rebut by suggesting that children tend to be of the same class as their parents.
Here’s a graph for those of you who prefer data:
I’m not saying that this association is fair, rather, just explaining the foundations of it.
Sharina
Oh wow.
I understand that this cultural ignorance is without malice, so I shall not take offense.
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Lower class and culture, wow just wow.
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@Randy
By all means why is it that you should take offense to your own ignorance? I mean you are comfortable in displaying it right?
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Randy is consistent in his racist insults.
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@mary burrell
That he is. He displays it heavily when a point goes over his head and he needs to appear more knowledgeable than he is.
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@ Sharina: No this is deliberate he knows what he is doing. Playing the obtuse schtick is his trademark.
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@ Randy
What you attempted to do was paint southern redneck nicknames as a persons actual name in a failed attempt to compare them to ethnic names. I have lived in the south my entire life and not once have I ran across any name like that as a persons birth name. Bubba is about as close as you get with that one and even that one is dying out.
“cooter” actually refers to the female vagina down here. Next time do better research and then come with a stronger point or a point period.
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@mary burrell
That is why I need to hold close to when you said….believe who they are because they show it to you and like you said with riverside_rob. Randy had been high on showing his obtuse azz
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@Ebonymonroe:
I think you just described my nightmare: a dominant white supremacist structure with which many POC conform just because existing in opposition is too exhausting – and possibly dangerous. A system where even working class whites are the beneficiaries, enjoying the discarded scraps of the elite and believing the lie that they can live the “American Dream” of capitalism. That somehow everyone can be rich if they just work hard and get the breaks.
Oh, hang on… That’s not my nightmare, that’s reality.
Drat.
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@George Ryder
What exactly are you thinking of when you hear the words “Ethnic” sounding names? Because Ethnic name and a ghetto name are two different things. That is where the problem comes in because most people don’t have a clue what the difference is and presume them to mean one in the same.
Is Kenshin ghetto or “Ethnic”?
Is Chin Ho ghetto or “Ethnic”?
Is Fernando ghetto or “Ethnic”?
Get my point?
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@ Sharina: I just shake my head when I read his comments.
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Sharina:
“Cooter” was the name of a character I remembered from the show Dukes of Hazzard. If you say it’s never used as an Appalachian-type name, I’ll take your word for it.
For the sake of veracity then, let’s use “Bubba” instead.
How many interview callbacks do you think “Bubba” is going to get compared to “George”?
George Ryder
Is it “a perfect picture of racism” when people perceive “Bubba” as being lower class than “George”? Why or why not?
Your double-standard is on precarious ground here.
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regarding ‘unique’ names that african-americans sometimes have, well my mom does taxes and for a while, as at that point we were sharing cars for a minute, she would sometimes comment when we would pick her up, on this name or that, and in her previous life she was a corporate officer level administrator type , that basically it could be the kiss of death on a job app.
I used to i guess reserve decision on such names, but it shows individuality, combines names, stuff like that, it doesn’t seem so wierd now especially with all the piercings and tatts everyone has these days, sometimes people just adopt a ‘standard english’ name like code switching i guess
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@Randy
“How many interview callbacks do you think “Bubba” is going to get compared to “George”?”—It depends on the profession or job or slave labor…whatever one chooses to refer it as. Most bubbas I have known usually have a construction job or one the entails manual labor. If you are referring to a much more upscale profession that entails pushing a paper weight or utilizing your mental rather than physical then I would bet that bubba is not likely to get a call back or very few compared to George.
Though my point does not change. Bubba is one that i define as ghetto/country and not “Ethnic.”
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George Ryder,
“fall in line with us and give your children white sounding names or you won’t be hired.”
I don’t think that’s it at all. It’s about screening out black people period not just black people with black names.
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@miss mary b i think you mean ‘shmuck’ with regards to randy, ‘shtick’ is a routine eg vaudevilliean skit, 10 years with jewish girl from brooklyn you pick up a little yiddish
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i almost said ethnic but hmmm i actually thought, came back with my general descriptor i use, that is, unique.
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shtick, like who’s on first ie abott and costello, like, know what i mean?
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@ Legion. It was a good lesson.
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Hmmmmm, you may want to check the stats on that one as Black men are more likely than Black women on dating sites to reject requests or invites to chat from whites–like 75% of online Black men daters have no interest in responding to the white women that contact them.
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In whose reality? If she is slender, attractive and educated, no children etc, a Black woman calls the shots in the dating/mating arena.
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phoebeprunelle
Hmmmmm, you may want to check the stats on that one as Black men are more likely than Black women on dating sites to reject requests or invites to chat from whites
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Who said white women need to make requests in order to chat with black men?
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Sharina:
“Ethnic” is hard to define, I think. Especially if you’re trying to separate it from “ghetto/country” (as you put it).
When the Freakonomics team ran a similar “black names” experiment, I believe they defined the list of names as ones which no white person in the state had.
Thus, non-“traditionally ethnic” names such as “So’Unique Miracle” would be included on the list.
http://lubbockonline.com/local-news/2014-01-01/covenant-welcomes-sounique-miracle-first-baby-2014
I would suspect that “So’Unique Miracle”, like “Bubba”, is going to face difficulties in the white collar job market compared with those with more common names.
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@Randy
No, ethnic is not hard to define or perhaps it is for you as you do not understand or know the difference. Ghetto or country names are ones made up on a whim or just fun and catchy (ie your So’Unique Miracle) . They are not ethnic. Hee Young is Ethnic, Mohammad is Ethnic, Paulina is ethnic. Jamal is ethnic.
Did you know that Jamal is Arabic name meaning beauty? Or did you just categorize it as a black name?
“I would suspect that “So’Unique Miracle”, like “Bubba”, is going to face difficulties in the white collar job market compared with those with more common names”—-I don’t disagree with that, but that still does not change my point above. These names are made up names that the parents thought were cute or interesting. They are not, however, ethnic names as some would like to categorize them.
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Pardon me, but does anyone know if this blog has an Art catagory thread?
Ive been searching the index and have not found one?
Where should I post a comment concerning art?
thank you.
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@thwack:
Well, there is the recent “Black Woman Chair” thread, if you count that item as art. Perhaps your comment might fall within the scope of discussion there?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/the-black-woman-chair/
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Thank you for the suggestion buddhu, I will consider placing it there. For some reason it never crossed my mind to put it there even though Ive been all up in that thread for a few days?
Hmmm…?
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@v8driver LOL! Randy is a schmuck doing schtick. LOL!
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YOU implied that white women can simply sign up for Black dating sites and have their pick of Black men which is false…
like i said, check the stats on Black men and online dating.
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Sharina:
When I say that such names are hard to define, I mean algorithmically such that one might structure a study to test the impact of certain names on job search success.
In the case of the Freakonomics study of this nature, they selected “black” names by cross referencing names given to black children with those given to white children, and only selecting names that didn’t show up on the white children’s list.
Thus, “So’Unique Miracle” would have been selected as a “black name” for their study.
I contend that names like “So’Unique Miracle” (as well as “Bubba”) communicate class and/or culture as well as race. As such, you’re unable to measure the effect of just “race”.
A better study might be to pair a common-sounding (to white American ears, at least) first name with an African-sounding last name, perhaps such as “Cynthia Okeke” or “Paul Mbutu” (these are real people’s names, btw).
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Randy,
“I contend that names like “So’Unique Miracle” (as well as “Bubba”) communicate class and/or culture as well as race. As such, you’re unable to measure the effect of just “race”.”
Race itself communicates class, rightly or wrongly. That’s the purpose of racism to enforce a class hierarchy based on race where black people are at the bottom. Black names denote a lower class by virtue of being black.
I contend that names like So’Unique Miracle and Bubba are outliers. Black names are typically something like Lakisha, Kenya, Jamal, or Deuntae, not a string of english words put together. Bubba is typically a nickname not something used in the workplace and isn’t unique to white people, but southern people.
If you follow this link: http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873.pdf?new_window=1 and go to Appendix Table 1, you can see the names that were used.
Either way, I also contend that actual class has been controlled for in the study. Education, experience, address, and the job applied for are more accurate predictors of class than the applicant’s name. If the applicant’s black name overrides that in the mind of the employer, it only speaks to the strength of racism.
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@Randy
That is all fine and dandy but you are allowing the point to go over your head. You tried to define something as ethnic when it was not. My point was and continues to be as simple as that. You were wrong and I frankly don’t appreciate your efforts to try and fluff the conversation with extra blah blah to subside that.
“I contend that names like “So’Unique Miracle” (as well as “Bubba”) communicate class and/or culture as well as race.”—I agree that it communicates class and/or cultures but not so much race (though I can admit at times I hear certain names and I think a certain race). Bubba particularly can be white or black and has been proven to be equally so. Even more interesting to note is I was never trying to measure the effect of just “race”(perhaps you are referring to your exchange with George).
” (these are real people’s names, btw).”—I don’t doubt that they are. Most actual ethnic names are real.
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@solesearch
Nice source
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phoebeprunelle
Meanwhile, there are many young, attractive, thin black females who never get to get married once!
In whose reality? If she is slender, attractive and educated, no children etc, a Black woman calls the shots in the dating/mating arena.
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In my reality, I have 5 sisters.
Black females have the highest percentage of out of wedlock births.
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phoebeprunelle
YOU implied that white women can simply sign up for Black dating sites and have their pick of Black men which is false…
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What makes my statement false?
If white women can get get dates with black men in “the real world” what makes you think they cannot do it online?
The internet police?
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@thwack and phoebeprunelle
I may have read the same data thwack could be referring to. A study of data on a number of dating sites found that AA men replied to non Black women more than AA women. If I remember the particular site exactly), surprisingly, a study of ok cupid actually found that non Black men responded to AA women more than AA men. What is perplexing, and could be confusing to phoebe as well, is that on average, across all classes, when all is said and done, a recent study found that 88% of AA men choose AA women as their spouses. Which seems like somewhat of a contradiction.
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@buddhuu
A living nightmare. In many ways the status quo continues through the passivity of the majority who are usually too bogged down with things like debt, to confront problematic structures it; so the 1% remain unchallenged. As for POC participating in White supremacism, I don’t really view it as perpetuating it as a result of a fear of consequences, but rather, simply through socialisation. My view is that things are not that black and white in our modern times, now, (pun intended), and things will never progress if each and every community is held accountable and takes responsibility. If POC perpetuate it, how then can we only hold White people accountable when they actually benefit from it. It could just as easily be said that a lot of it is a matter of class, as structures are formed and sustained by the top 1%. I’m not saying racism doesn’t exist in the White community, but rather that the issue of White supremacy is in no way limited to it and should be identified as such. If all White people were living on mars today, White supremacy would still be in full effect across pretty much every community left on earth.
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Yeah…your limited, insular reality does not account for the majority of Black women–like 75% are married before they turn 35. See the Toldson and Marks study on Black marriage…
Pretty sure you can scroll up to read the accurate statistics (taken from U.S. Census data) provided by Ebony on this.
Simple. It isn’t based on facts.
That was never the point. You implied earlier that Black women (when you say Black women you imply the majority of us) are single due to white women “stealing” “good” Black men. Some white women may date Black men, but the majority of Black men who are dating and marrying are doing so with Black women. Like well over 90% of Black men (of all economic brackets) who participated in the 2011 U.S. Census described their wives as Black. Therefore, it isn’t white women who have easy access to upwardly mobile Black men–believe it or not, it is Black women in “the real world dating” and online dating worlds.
No. The debunking white supremacists lies about Black women police. Stop being so negative.
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@Ebony,
I can try to dig around again and find the study :), but i think thwack may only be looking at the O.K. Cupid study.
Eharmony, Match.com and other major dating sites cited that Black men on average intiate contact and respond to non Black women the lowest of all other men. on Eharmony alone, 75% of Black men excluded white women from their potential matches category.
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Ebonymonroe
@thwack and phoebeprunelle
I may have read the same data thwack could be referring to.
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Im not refering to any “reading data”; besides, who should I believe, some numbers on a paper or my lying eyes?
Ebonymonroe
a recent study found that 88% of AA men choose AA women as their spouses. Which seems like somewhat of a contradiction.
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No, because it still does not account for all the black females who never get married.
What problem are WE trying to solve?
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phoebeprunelle
You implied earlier that Black women (when you say Black women you imply the majority of us) are single due to white women “stealing” “good” Black men.
——————————————————————————————————
But did I say that?
The assumption is YOURS and Im not resposible for YOUR assumptions. You are.
Your honor I make a motion that counsel be required to produce the language from the transcript where I STATE:
“Black women are single due to white women “stealing” “good” Black men.”
*Motion granted*
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Not even sure after having posted accurate facts on Black women and marriage is it worth any more round about words.
Nope, sure isn’t.
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Why don’t you ask thwack?
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phoebeprunelle
Not even sure after having posted accurate facts on Black women and marriage is it worth any more round about words.
———————————————————————————————-
What problem are WE trying to solve?
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@phoebeprunelle
Wow! Isn’t it interesting that they circulated the data found over at okcupid but failed to mention the ones you named? I didn’t know that. Mmmmm.
@thwack
I get what you’re saying but I can see where phoebe is coming from. 75% of African American women are married before 35, so the majority are getting married, and on average, although African American men marry out the most out of all male groups in America, (because their numbers are that of a minority. White men actually make up the most of the interracial marriage percentage but because their numbers are so much greater there’s more of them to go around), across all classes, 88% of African American men marry African American women. A Hispanic woman is more likely to have a child out of wedlock than an African American woman, and a large percentage of so called African American women with children outside of marriage are cohabitating. Also the 72% out of wedlock number has to be put into context.
………………………………………………………………
Baby Mama Drama: Explaining Conservative Deception About Out-of-Wedlock Births in the Black Community.
Ever since my post two days ago, in which I detailed the way the right, a) distorts evidence about social pathology in black communities with regard to crime and out-of-wedlock childbirth, and b) routinely ignores those pathologies that are prevalent in white spaces, I’ve been bombarded with requests for further clarification. Specifically, about the matter of out-of-wedlock childbearing among black women. Folks are apparently confused by the evidence and would like to better understand what I was saying and why conservative arguments about this issue are entirely fraudulent.
I agree that the data is confusing, and so I will try and explain it as clearly as possible.
First, to recap: when conservatives argue that there is an “illegitimacy” crisis in black America, and that rising out-of-wedlock birthrates are the real cause of black folks’ problems, they demonstrate an inability to actually understand statistics. The fact is, the birth rate for unmarried black women (births per 1000 such women of childbearing age) is dropping, not rising. For black teens, the birth rate has fallen by half since 1970 and is now at its lowest point ever, and for black women generally the out-of-wedlock birthrate is down by about a third in that same period of time.
However, as conservatives note, it is also true that the percentage of black births that are out-of-wedlock as a share of all black births has risen, nearly doubling since 1970, and now stands at just over 72 percent.
Both of these things are true: declining birth rates and fertility rates for unmarried black women (i.e., unmarried black women are increasingly being more and more “responsible” in conservative terms, not less), and also a climbing share of out-of-wedlock kids as a share of all black kids born.
The reason for these seemingly contradictory trends can best be explained like this:
Imagine a community of 100,000 people of childbearing age (50,000 men and 50,000 women), where half the men and women are married and half of each are single. Of the 25,000 single women, imagine that 500 had babies this year. This would represent a very small number, and an unmarried birth rate of 20 babies per 1000 women. You could also represent this by saying that only about 2% of single women in this community would have a baby out of wedlock this year, since most women would have only one child per year, and so the 500 babies born likely represent roughly 500 of the 25,000 women too.
But let’s say that that same year, for whatever reason, only 200 of the married women gave birth. In that case, 500 of the 700 babies born, or over 71 percent of all babies born in this community would be out-of-wedlock! Oh my! Send out the cultural police! But note, this result would not in any way reflect the widespread misbehavior of single women and their male companions — after all 98 percent of all unmarried women are not giving birth — but rather, it would reflect the fact that married couples were simply having even fewer kids than single women were.
And in fact, that is what has happened in the U.S. Even though single black women have cut back on how many babies they have while unmarried, married black women have cut back even further. So if single black women have reduced their birthrates by a third, but married couples have cut theirs by over half, or even two-thirds (which is the case), then obviously the percentage of births in the black community that are out-of-wedlock will rise.
The reason it is unfair for conservatives to seize upon the latter of these facts while ignoring the context that explains it, is that their argument is first and foremost that black folks need to stop having babies out of wedlock. But the data says they are already cutting back on that, and dramatically so. In other words, the trend lines in that regard are positive. To suggest a pathological — and increasingly so — black culture when it comes to out-of-wedlock childbirth is entirely dishonest. If anything, “black culture” if we really want to suggest it is linked to the decision to bear children out-of-wedlock, must be improving, rather than regressing. So conservatives should be celebrating these trends.
Meanwhile, as I noted — and since black single women are already cutting back on childbearing — there is only one other way that that 72 percent number could be brought down. But it is unlikely that conservative white folks are going to push for it: namely, if black couples started having 5, 6, even 10 kids each, that number (the percentage of black births that are out of wedlock as a percentage of all black births) would be cut in half within a year or so. So, since single black women are already behaving increasingly “responsibly” in terms of their childbearing behavior, how about it white folks? How about we push for a massive increase in married black womens’ fertility? Maybe pass out fertility drugs so they can have triplets and quads? Maybe encourage them to go the “full Dugger family” and have 20? That way, the share of out-of-wedlock births in the black community can plummet and everyone can stop talking about things they don’t understand. Oh, and the black population would also skyrocket, so…
Yeah, I didn’t think so.
………………………………………………………………………………
source: Tim wise
…………………………………………………………………………………
Four Myths About Black Marriage
Setting the Record Straight
Is marriage for white people? That question has been asked in one form or another in a series of news reports about the black marriage “crisis.” On the surface, such stories seem to be concerned about black women in search of love, but these media reports have largely served to fuel stereotypes about African Americans. Moreover, by suggesting that too few black men are available to wed, news stories on black marriage have done little more than predict doom and gloom for African-American women who hope to marry. In reality, black marriage isn’t reserved for the likes of Barack and Michelle Obama. Analysis of census data and other figures has debunked much of the misinformation floating around in the media about the black marriage rate.
Black Women Don’t Marry
The barrage of news reports about the black marriage rate gives the impression that African-American women’s chances of walking down the aisle are bleak. A Yale University study found that just 42 percent of black women are married, and a variety of high profile news networks such as CNN and ABC picked that figure up and ran with it. But researchers Ivory A. Toldson of Howard University and Bryant Marks of Morehouse College question the accuracy of this finding. “The often-cited figure of 42 percent of black women never marrying includes all black women 18 and older,” Toldson told the Root.com. “Raising this age in an analysis eliminates age groups we don’t really expect to be married and gives a more accurate estimate of true marriage rates.”
Toldson and Marks found that 75 percent of black women marry before they turn age 35 after examining census data from 2005 to 2009. Moreover, black women in small towns have higher marriage rates than white women in urban centers such as New York and Los Angeles, Toldson remarked in the New York Times.
Educated Black Women Have it Harder
Getting a college degree is just about the worst thing a black woman can do if she wants to get married, right? Not exactly. News stories about black marriage often mention that more black women pursue higher education than black men—by a 2-to-1 ratio according to some reports. But what these pieces leave out is that white women also earn college degrees more than white men do, and this gender imbalance hasn’t hurt white women’s chances at matrimony. What’s more, black women who finish college actually improve their chances of marrying rather than lower them. “Among black women, 70 percent of college graduates are married by 40, whereas only about 60 percent of black high school graduates are married by that age,” Tara Parker-Pope of the New York Times reported. The same trend is at play for black men. In 2008, 76 percent of black men with a college degree married by age 40. In contrast, only 63 percent of black men with just a high school diploma tied the knot. So education increases the likelihood of marriage for both African-American men and women. Moreover, Toldson points out that black women with college degrees are more likely to marry than white female high school dropouts.
Rich Black Men Marry Out
Black men drop black women as soon as they reach a certain level of success, don’t they? While plenty of rap stars, athletes and musicians may choose to date or marry interracially when they achieve fame, the same is not true for the bulk of successful black men. By analyzing census data Toldson and Marks found that 83 percent of married black men who earned at least $100,000 annually got hitched to black women. The same is the case for educated black men of all incomes. Eighty-five percent of black male college graduates married black women. Generally, 88 percent of married black men (no matter their income or educational background) have black wives. This means that interracial marriage should not be held responsible for the singleness of black women.
Black Men Don’t Earn as Much as Black Women
Just because black women are more likely to graduate from college than their male counterparts doesn’t mean that they out-earn black men. Actually, black men are more likely than black women to bring home at least $75,000 annually. Plus, double the number of black men than women make at least $250,000 annually. Because of pervasive gender gaps in income, black men remain the breadwinners in the African-American community.
These numbers indicate that there are more than enough financially successful black men to go around for black women. Of course, not every black woman is looking for a breadwinner. Not every black woman is even seeking marriage. Some black women are happily single. Others are gay, lesbian or bisexual and unable to legally wed those they love. For heterosexual black women in search of marriage, however, the forecast is not nearly as gloomy as has been portrayed in the media.
……………………………………………………………………
The majority of Black people are getting married to each other, but you have to bear in mind Black male incarceration and mortality rates, as well. When that is put into context, we then have to consider the fact that there are faw fewer Black men than there are Black women, and to top it all off, Black women, thus far, have been the least likely to marry out out of all races and genders.
@phoebeprunelle
If you have the data you mentioned
(…)Eharmony, Match.com and other major dating sites cited that Black men on average intiate contact and respond to non Black women the lowest of all other men. on Eharmony alone, 75% of Black men excluded white women from their potential matches category. (…)
I would be curious to take a look see.
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^^^
*make up most
*far fewer
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Ebonymonroe
@thwack
I get what you’re saying but I can see where phoebe is coming from. 75% of African American women are married before 35, so the majority are getting married, and on average, although African American men marry out the most out of all male groups in America, (because their numbers are that of a minority. White men actually make up the most of the interracial marriage percentage but because their numbers are so much greater there’s more of them to go around), across all classes, 88% of African American men marry African American women. A Hispanic woman is more likely to have a child out of wedlock than an African American woman, and a large percentage of so called African American women with children outside of marriage are cohabitating. Also the 72% out of wedlock number has to be put into context.
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Ebonymonroe,
what problem are you trying to solve?
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There is no problem–the majority of Black women get hitched to Black men by the time they turn 35.
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phoebeprunelle
There is no problem–the majority of Black women get hitched to Black men by the time they turn 35.
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There is no problem?
Really?
What about my 5 unmarried black sisters?
and my niece?
Also, are you married?
and
how old are you?
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Using personal examples is like White people projecting bad Black people they’ve met onto the entire Black community. That’s confirmation bias. There’s no problem, we’re just presenting you with the fact that credible data contradicts your statements.
Engaged and phoebe is married.
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Ebonymonroe
Engaged and phoebe is married
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Do you want more single black women to get married?
Maybe you will when your fiance and phoebe’s husband look at their phones but refuse to answer them when ya’ll are around?
**************
“Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am, as that they who are about me, and see my state, may have caused it to toll for me, and I know not that.
and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls;for it tolls for thee.”
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What on earth? You seem to have a very low opinion of Black men. I’m fine thank-you, as are my two elder sisters who have both been married between 2-3 decades to their Black male husbands, and Phoebe strikes me as very happily married. Thanks anyway.
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That one caught me by surprise. Lol. I thought, what a strange thing to say. (Giggles.)
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Ebonymonroe
That one caught me by surprise. Lol. I thought, what a strange thing to say. (Giggles.)
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Black people laugh when nothing is funny.
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Yeah, he’s become a little disrespectful. Was originally looking foward to his comments after noticing his first posts, but . . .. tis all for the birds now.
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Why can’t GZimmerthug just crawl under a rock and live the rest of his life in silence? A part if me wants to see him get annihilated in the ring, though. What a wharped society we live in.
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Your honor, I make a motion the court be reminded of the seriousness of the problem WE are trying to solve?
*Motion granted”
I call William The Conqueor to the witness stand.
Mr. Conqueor, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
*I do*
Mr. Conqueor, in your own words, please describe the problem as you have witnessed it?
1. I had a job in a warehouse when I was straight out of high school and I was shocked to find out how many of the people there were racist, especially the management. We had one black man working there out of about 120 employees. Whenever Larry was not around the racist jokes would fly, if we were in the office my own manager would say many racist remarks joined in by my coworkers.
2. This is when I also started putting two and two together in regards of how much harder it would be for a black person to get a job than it would be for a white person if all the managers thought this way
3. When you think about it, 30 years ago and even to this day, white men own everything, white men managed all the companies and white men had all the jobs, money and power.
4. I started to imagine what this oppression of my entire community would do to my personality, my anger, my finances, etc, etc. I then started realizing why there is so much poverty in black communities, why there is so much drug abuse.
5. we have all the advantages and blacks have almost nothing and it is all the direct result of how the white man has treated them from day one in this country…
Thank you Mr. Conqueor, I have no further questions for you.
Next I call Cherryl Aldave to the witness stand.
Ms. Aldave, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God?
*I do*
Ms. Aldave, in your own words, please describe the problem as you have witnessed it?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqqYdw2R9sM)
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These statistics support what Ebonymonroe has been discussing:
A report by the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention shows that the teen birth rate for African Americans has declined by 60 percent between 1991 and 2011 – a rate 10 percent greater than the overall dip in teen birth rates.” What that means is Black women’s birth rates have declined 10% faster then the other two groups white and Hispanic. It also shows Hispanics having higher out of wed lock birth rates then blacks.
You can pull up the CDC report in PDF from their website and get these statistics. (National Vital Statistics Reports Volume 62, Number 1 June 28, 2013 Births: Final Data for 2011) .
The report shows that since 1965 non martial births have increased in every race in proportion to the 1965 ratio and topped in 2007. Since 2007 each group has declined 2% a year in non martial births. The report also shows teen age births dropping significantly with blacks having a 60% reduction in teen age births over the last ten years. The 2011 statistics show that 32.3 % of white women, 63.7% of black women and 75.1% of Hispanic women have non martial births. 58% of these non martial births are in cohabitating relationships meaning their is a man around. In other words less people are marrying and more people are having children out of wedlock. The report also shows a significant drop in married couple having children in part because the children preexisted the marriage. What were looking at is a cultural change and if you look at Europe the same trend is happening their and is reflected in greater numbers among white women. Iceland has the highest rate of non martial births coming in around 63% in their mostly white population. That’s double of what it is in America and is almost identical to American blacks. Considering that Iceland’s police shot and killed one civilian in it’s entire history I don’t think you can draw a correlation between non martial births and crime.
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@lifelearner: This sounds like a dog and pony show. But I have to be honest there is a part of me that wants to see Zimmerman beaten to a pulp.
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“there is a part of me that wants to see Zimmerman beaten to a pulp.”
Same here.
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@ Ebonymonroe: I feel yoursentiment and am in agreement, I too am disappointed.
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@ Ebony
“Phoebe strikes me as very happily married. Thanks anyway.”—I strongly second this. A strong confident happily married woman.
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wow, is that asplund.
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isn’t George set to fight dmx, I know the game wanted to but it was a no go. I don’t think a black person should get in the ring with him, because I know they will demonize whoever it is and say see they are violent. If he gets severely hurt or worse we’ll have to see his family get on tv and act like he’s the victim and receive more money and support smh. Then I will be thinking what the George supporters have said about trayvon and repeating it to them. why didn’t he go home, why didn’t he run away, why didn’t he stay home.
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and the fight is for an animal charity, no surprise there, animal lovers love the animals and view them as more valuable than black life.
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@ Kiwi
You are fortunate that you weren’t in college back during the heyday of “The Disparity” in 2005 and roundabouts. I believe the numbers were quite a bit worse back then, and with the Columbia University Study and all (I’m sure you’re familiar with it.)
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Agreed with Legion (unless they are drunk)
It’s a vicious cycle
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Black couples in Ghana are paying for sperm from European donors to have mixed (half caste) kids, $3000.
http://www.ghanacelebrities.com/2014/01/26/mixed-race-baby-business-booming-ghana-couples-paying-3000-half-caste-kids/
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Kiwi,
here’s an article that you can sympathize/empathize with:
“How I Learned To Feel Undesirable” by Noah Cho
“I learned, slowly, painfully, over the course of my life that most people shared the opinion of my mother’s (white) community. I know this, because I look like my father.
When I look in the mirror, I do not see someone that I understand to be handsome by Western standards. I look mostly Asian, and like so many other heterosexual Asian males before me, I have internalized a lifetime of believing that my features, my face, my skin tone, in tandem, make me unattractive and undesirable.
I am certainly not the first heterosexual Asian male to arrive at this realization, and I do not doubt I will be the last. I know where my insecurities originated. I know that a lifetime of being a pop-culture nerd has placed me at the center of a media universe that has repeatedly sent me the message that a male that looks like me is incapable of dating anyone that doesn’t.
Hearing my mother’s friends imitate my father’s accent after he died, making it ever more exaggerated, high pitched and feminized, reinforced this.”
http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2014/02/04/271410342/how-i-learned-to-feel-undesirable
and of course, you have commenters who totally dismissed the fact that race/society had anything to do with the writer’s “insecurities” — the typical white American response –“It’s not about race because it happened to me too and I’m white — I’m fat, I’m too thin, my hair is too red, I’m blond, etc… so I got picked on too” —
wouldn’t it be nice if non-white people can just discuss how their feeling without some white person trying to act “as if” America is still not a prejudiced/racist country.
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@ Legion,
My fibromyalgia symptoms actually worsened after I quit smoking. It seems that in my case, all that nicotine (I had a one pack a day habit) was the very thing keeping most of the worst symptoms of fibro at bay.
I was as about 14 when I started experiencing fibro as dull overall achiness and, at the same, time I also began to notice issues with my memory and focus (the achiness was only noticed when one day it mysteriously disappeared, only to return the very next day). Sometime soon after that I became a smoker, and it was over a period of years after that the other fibro symptoms would crop up. One symptom, however, which I had never experienced until after I quit smoking was the intense widespread, and sometimes strange, pain symptoms of fibro. At first I thought they were due to nicotine withdrawal but more than 5 years later they are still with me (I’ve found a herb and amino acid combo that helps with the pain symptoms quite a bit).
Nicotine, though, is a strange thing in that it can ameliorate symptoms in one person while exacerbating them in another person. It also gave me a faster metabolism; I cannot get away with eating the types of foods I ate before I quit smoking. As well, nicotine also has the ability to imitate and to replace in the brain the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, and does so by binding to one of its receptors; but withdrawing the nicotine. though, won’t necessarily cause the the actual neurotransmitter to return to its old job lickety split.
Acetylcholine is said to have a pain lessening effect; and is also involved in the contraction of the urinary bladder smooth muscle as well.
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^^^ (Correction to my above posts)
*Out of wedlock births in the Black community have fallen by 1/3 not 1/4
Thanks for the information @Michael Jon Barker
So, I hear George Zimmerman, whose apparently a celebrity (a celebrated public figure) will be fighting DMX for charity. One, when did George become a celebrity? And, two, what is the world coming to?
If George was really the one screaming on the tape, because Trayvon, a kid, had tackled him and ferociously fought him to the ground, to the point where Zimmerman felt that pulling and firing his g()n was the only way of escape, why is he now confident that he can take on a grown man like DMX or Kanye West, (who he’s reported to have said he wants to fight because Kanye attacked an “innocent boy” for repeatedly using “the n word” in a hateful, verbally abusive public tirade)?
So this guy’s killed a kid, beat up his girlfriend, and now we’re supposed to celebrate him as an athlete?
We’re supposed to view this man engaging in yet another display of violence, as some sort of family entertainment?
We’re actually supposed to be able to disconnect his history of violence during a sponsored fight and contextualize it as benign sportsmanship?
Incredible.
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wtf alchemist.. that Is sick as hell. I wonder if these are couples where the man can’t have children because what man would want their wife to have a sperm donor if they can give her kids. it is always sad and disturbing when crazy mess like this reaches the motherland.
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@ Legion & Pay it Forward
I was wondering about this, since it’s been well over a decade since I’ve worked in the field touched on the subject of fibromyalgia, but may I share a snippet or 2 about it?
I hope neither of you mind.
Absolutely — herb and supplement combinations: any person who lives with fibromyalgia will use a variety of methods.
But, TCM (Tradtional Chinese Medicine) and yoga, and also T’ai Chi – all work.
It simply depends on the individual.
In my own experience, T’ai Chi can be particularly helful because one really “feels” the energy field all around where one stands. It’s a soft, easy way to move, and can be learned quickly and easily.
It’s almost as thought the body absorbs the benefits practically from the very first time — like in muscle posture and breath.
Qigong, another gentle movement system, can also soothe the pain symptoms — but I’ve never tried it myself and have never met anyone who suffers with fibromyalgia who has used it.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKjcb0lmKJI)
Also, lymphatic massage and bee propolis.
This form of massage uses GENTLE, circular movement to decongest blockages and stimulate lymph flow.
It can help to support the immune system. Self-massage technique:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA-wi0d7-Ro)
Propolis (the resin that bees use in their hives) is sometimes beneficial for M.E.
(chronic fatigue / myalgic encephalomyelitis), and combined auto-immune disorders. Its main benefit is that it protects the immune system.
Regular detoxing of the liver can also relieve upper body pain.
http://www.wikihow.com/Do-a-Liver-Flush
These ^^ (and many other) methods are pretty traditional, but occasionally they can be of help.
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Ebonymonroe
Yeah, he’s become a little disrespectful. Was originally looking foward to his comments after noticing his first posts, but . . .. tis all for the birds now.
————————————————————————————————–
While reveiwing this blogs index of past topics, I found at least 4 separate articles titled:
*cough*
“Why so few ______ men marry black women”
*cough*
How could such a “non problem” have been so a popular topic?
I guess its been solved?
*cough*
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What are you looking to explore in this subject, thwack?
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thwack,
maybe you should get your sisters to join blackpeoplemeet.com.
I saw this commercial numerous times during the 7 hours I was forced to watch BET while getting my hair braided.
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solesearch
thwack,
maybe you should get your sisters to join blackpeoplemeet.com.
———————————————————————————————————-
DING!
DING!
DING!
We have a winner!
Thank you solesearch. I can FINALLY stop banging my head against the table.
(((shakin my head)))
*ouch*
Now,
does anybody know what solesearch did that nobody else would do?
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@thwack
I think it is more a matter of no one cared enough to do it. Though I most certainly can be wrong.
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Sharina
@thwack
I think it is more a matter of no one cared enough to do it. Though I most certainly can be wrong
———————————————————————————————-
No one cared to do what?
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@thwack
Now don’t get me wrong, I say this politely, but I’m going to make myself clear. I specifically remember stating that I understood where you were coming from, but since myself, Phoebe, (and I would imagine many other commenters here) have come across information regarding the myths about the hopelessness of Black relationships, I took the time to post them for you, during, what I thought was a casual correspondence on the topic. In my post, I did acknowledge some of the difficulties in the dynamic between Black relationships and marriages, but posted data that has brought to light the fact that a lot of misinformation has been thrown around on the topic to exacerbate the stereotype of Black relationships being dysfunctional that many conservatives enjoy peddling and many well meaning people assume to be true.
At that point, you asked me what I was trying to prove. I responded by explaining that I wasn’t trying to disprove anything, I was just providing you with the facts on the issues you seemed to be concerned about.
At this point, you asked both myself and Phoebe if we were married. I responded by informing you that I am engaged and Phoebe is married.
Perhaps you mistook my conversing with you on the matter as some sort of insult, perhaps I failed to make it clear that that’s all it was since you seemed to respond as though you were being attacked. I apologise if that was the case. That’s the only reason I can think of as to why you then went on to insult me with a very disrespectful, patronizing racist generalizing post.
You see, sadly, at this point, you became extremely insulting by going on to predict that we will soon be without our partners, veiled under some nonsense poetry, and all founded on our race and gender, (the fact that we happen to be Black and female).
Once again I say this politely. I do not take kindly to racist remarks from non Black men and women, or Black men and women. It’s completely unacceptable in my book. In future, you can skip @ing me, as I will not be responding to any of your posts in future.
Thanks.
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Thank you, Legion and Bulanik. I am going now to check into your suggestions!
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Linda:
Let’s say for a moment that the characteristic wasn’t race, but something such as height, facial features, etc.
What might a man say to another man regarding these concerns? While it might not seem compassionate to you, I think a loving response would be an honest one:
1. The world doesn’t owe you mating opportunities.
2. Sometimes you’re dealt a hot hand, sometimes you’re not.
3. Your best approach is to:
– Sack up.
– Get your fitness in order (physical, mental, financial, etc).
– Acquire game.
(Interestingly, such advice probably works across mammalian species.)
How does “race” make any of this different?
Btw, this passage was telling:
Also this:
Cringe inducing.
It seems that race may just the proxy for the emasculating effects of modern media-driven society.
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@thwack
“No one cared to do what?”—Why are you asking me? Because if you don’t know then I am wondering if there is even a point behind this. I simply stated they did not care not that I know or that I care.
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As a method of increasingly one’s chance of finding a mate, attempts at stirring up feelings of guilt are also made quite frequently by individuals who are determined to enforce endogamy on opposite gender members of the group they were born in to — this is most especially true if there also exists a belief that exogamy (or marrying outside of one’s group) is not a viable option, or is highly unlikely to occur for the person doing the enforcing.
From what I’ve seen, though, this is not a particularly effective method. . . .
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Pay it Forward
As a method of increasingly one’s chance of finding a mate, attempts at stirring up feelings of guilt are also made quite frequently by individuals who are determined to enforce endogamy on opposite gender members of the group they were born in to — this is most especially true if there also exists a belief that exogamy (or marrying outside of one’s group) is not a viable option, or is highly unlikely to occur for the person doing the enforcing.
From what I’ve seen, though, this is not a particularly effective method. .
———————————————————————————————–
Pay it Forward, what problem are you trying to solve?
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Sharina
@thwack
“No one cared to do what?”—Why are you asking me? Because if you don’t know then I am wondering if there is even a point behind this. I simply stated they did not care not that I know or that I care.
—————————————————————————————————–
Sharina,
what problem are you trying to solve?
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Thwack,
“Pay it Forward, what problem are you trying to solve?”
The problem of you thinking black women have a problem finding a husband? Or that they even need husbands?
Why don’t you just say what you want us to know?
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Solesearch
Thwack,
The problem of you thinking black women have a problem finding a husband? Or that they even need husbands?
Why don’t you just say what you want us to know?
—————————————————————————————————
I already did, and as a consequence, my 5 sisters and my niece got thrown under the bus.
Dismissed as irrelevant by everyone, except you:
“maybe you should get your sisters to join blackpeoplemeet.com.”
Thank you.
Thank you for making a constructive suggestions regarding what black females who want to get married can DO.
It may seem like no big deal, but no one else did it?
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@ Thwack
i don’t get it.
You didn’t know about internet dating sites before this?
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King
@ Thwack
i don’t get it.
You didn’t know about internet dating sites before this?
————————————————————————————–
No King,
the real problem is *** no one cared enough*** to make an actual constructive SUGGESTION for black females who want to get married.
Go back and read the dialogue and think about it; you think this is the only time black females experience this dynamic?
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@ Thwack
But isn’t this the type of thing that’s really more individualized?
I mean, just because you have a group statistic doesn’t mean you can solve it with group advice. To be helpful, it seems to me that one would have to know more specifics before trying to advise.
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^^ In other words, I’m saying that the answer to the question is not just one thing, or one size fits all. Yo can’t say, “Go to this website” or “Wear this dress” or “Take this class” because the answer could be quite different in each case… not that there is no general advice with giving at all.
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@King and others,
twack’s rhetoric sounds a lot like Adonis’.
Just my observation.
Most single Black women already know where to meet single Black men or other men if that is their aim. But then again, the obession with Black women’s dating/mating habits is a little too creepy for me.
Cheers!
🙂
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^I meant obsession.
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Agreed phoebeprunelle
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King
^^ In other words, I’m saying that the answer to the question is not just one thing, or one size fits all.
———————————————————————————————-
You are missing the point King, no one cared enough to make a constructiive suggestion. Matter of fact, ebonymonroe and Pheobe both said there is no problem; then the white males jumped in to back them up.
Black people are so used to being treated this way we don’t even notice it.
White people have trained us to think this way and now we train each other; and our children.
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Thwack,
“the real problem is *** no one cared enough*** to make an actual constructive SUGGESTION for black females who want to get married.
Go back and read the dialogue and think about it; you think this is the only time black females experience this dynamic?”
I disagree. People are always giving black women advice on how to snag a man. Celebrity relationship experts have written several books and produced movies on the topic.
It gets talked about more than actual problems black women face like the wage gap.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/2568838
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Why are people are trying to substitute “dating” and “meeting” men for marriage?
There is a big difference and I maintain we all pay a price for the large number of black children born out of wedlock.
You think thats “creepy?”
Who do you think is doing the car jackings, selling the drugs, pimping out your daughters…?
BTW– who is this “Adonis” character?
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Solesearch
I disagree. People are always giving black women advice on how to snag a man.
*snip*
It gets talked about more than actual problems black women face like the wage gap.
——————————————————————————————————-
Have you ever considered the two problems may be connected?
Do married women earn more money than unmarried women?
If so why?
Also, why do so many people avoid using the word MARRIAGE and instead substitute with words like “snag”, “meet”, “date”…?
I use the word marriage because thats exactly what I mean.
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phoebeprunelle said
“@King and others,
twack’s rhetoric sounds a lot like Adonis’.”
agreed.
Also, thwack, there has been considerable discussion on dating sites here in the not too distant past…
I don’t want to repeat myself, but again, dating sites are typically for those who can’t meet people in real life, or those who are just looking for free outings and meals.
the express intent of most people on the dating sites that I have used (and blackpeoplemeet is not one of them) is usually just that, dating, not so much marriage
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Ridiculous! You post credible facts on lies told about Black crime, out of wedlock children numbers and Black marriage statistics, and yet it goes over ones head and one continues to cling to the stereotype. I used to think only White racists did this Black pathology thing, but either one cannot read, cannot interpret simple articles and numbers, or does not want to believe their own Black community is not what channels like fox news project. Unbelievable!
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v8driver
Also, thwack, there has been considerable discussion on dating sites here in the not too distant past…
——————————————————————————————————
v8driver,
Do you think life would be better for black people if more black women were married and their children were born into wedlock with fathers in the home supporting, protecting and defending the children and mothers?
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I believe this is a non Black person posing as a Black person.
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Possibly.
But you must consider that you may also be missing my point. Which was that if you are asking a question to which there is no direct answer, because the solution may be different from one individual to another. Then your supposition that the ensuing silence must be because other’s “Do not care” may be incorrect.
Sometimes, the problem is in the question, or the way it is asked.
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Possibly.
Intuition or evidence?
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thwack,
“Have you ever considered the two problems may be connected?
Do married women earn more money than unmarried women?
”
No, they do not. Being married has no effect on the wages of women. Having kids negatively affects a woman’s earnings whether she’s married or not.
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“pimping out your daughters…?” That’s projecting something WP would think. One incidence makes the news and now that is representative of the entire black community.
red flag
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King
But you must consider that you may also be missing my point. Which was that if you are asking a question to which there is no direct answer, because the solution may be different from one individual to another. Then your supposition that the ensuing silence must be because other’s “Do not care” may be incorrect.
Sometimes, the problem is in the question, or the way it is asked
————————————————————————————————–
OK, then please allow me to retort:
Do you think life would be better for black people if more black women were married and their children were born into wedlock with fathers in the home supporting, protecting and defending the children and mothers?
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Michael Jon Barker
“pimping out your daughters…?” That’s projecting something WP would think. One incidence makes the news and now that is representative of the entire black community.
red flag
——————————————————————————————————-
Uh oh, another white man decides to jump in and HELP try to discredit a black person who wants to help black people;
hmmm… isn’t that interesting?
Michael Jon Barker,
Do you think life would be better for black people if more black women were married and their children were born into wedlock with fathers in the home supporting, protecting and defending the children and mothers?
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solesearch
Having kids negatively affects a woman’s earnings whether she’s married or not.
—————————————————————————————————
Which is more important, having CHILDREN, or earning money?
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“pimping out your daughters…?”
As a father with a daughter when I read that line it churned my stomach.
I took it personally.
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Michael Jon Barker
“pimping out your daughters…?”
As a father with a daughter when I read that line it churned my stomach.
I took it personally.
————————————————————————————————–
Your personal concern is noted.
But are you also concerned about black people?
Well then why don’t you answer the question Michael Jon Barker?
Do you think life would be better for black people if more black women were married and their children were born into wedlock with fathers in the home supporting, protecting and defending the children and mothers?
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@King
Usually when a member of the Black community or a sincere non racist non Black individual posts an issue, once presented with credible information highlighting the huge distortions on, say, out of wedlock children in the Black community and it being a complete untruth removed far from context, or, a supposed Black marriage crisis marred in dysfunctional inherent in Black peoples, or Black crime, or any other Black pathology, the person responds by being open to it or even relieved, because who would want it to be true? This was not the response, instead, the response was actually insults, as though a progressive truth was unsettling.
Racists either go from thread to thread of Abagond’s or a member’s post, trying painfully to deconstruct evidence of racism, by rationalizing it.
OR, they revel in circulated ideas on “Black mess” hidden behind “concern” or “casual conversation.” Once debunked, they almost always skip over data vindicating a community of colour from lies projected in media, instead choosing to continue in proselytizing that original doctrine, because that was always their only intent.
Black women, possibly non Black women, White men, and you yourself, a Black man, have engaged, but the accusatory tone persists from one issue to the next.
First, dem sellout Black boyz all runnin’ off from the afro’d woman and their chilrens wid dem evilz White womenzez.
Despite information showing many Black men to be persistent in being husbands and fathers to Black women and their offspring.
Then, them runnin wile’ Black girls lost and lonely. Despite information on most Black women getting married, the lowest time of illegitimate children in our community in the past 4 decades. And the fact that these cohabitating Black parents are going on to marry and that Black men spend a great deal of time with their children.
Then, them evilz Black criminals, we must save em, purify them from their wretched ways rooted in them single mammies. Despite co parenting unions being proven to have no correlation with crime, but most likely poverty, and, the huge progression in the community in higher education, surpassing a number of other groups.
Now, those hot in the pants Black womenz and those conniving White menzez scheming togethers.
Despite, as I said, a number of individuals of varying races and genders engaging.
Either that or one is not able to comprehend and compute very basic stats and articles covering the issues persons took the time to post.
I dunno, could be wrong, but it smells fishy.
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Michael you shouldn’t waste your time, you’ve posted info on how much out of wedlock children in the Black community has dropped, and the fact that most are cohabitating unions with Black men active in their children’s lives. I have, I presented an article that contextualized the much circulated 72% stat, and I even took the time to post an article exposing the fact that 75% of Black women are married before 35. You’re wasting your time here.
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^^^
*marred in dysfunction inherent in Black peoples,
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Legion
Which is more important, having CHILDREN, or earning money?
False dichotomy.
—————————————————————————————————–
You think so?
Have you ever met your grand parents?
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@thwack it has been a theme here as a vamp off abagond’s dbr thread that if not me then who? so idk it’s supposed to be difference not deficit…my mom calls my daughter my bastard child, so i have a child born out of wedlock while i was married to someone else, i’m not the one to ask my shit is of epic jerry springer proportions
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*moddied forgot to say ish
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@King
“Intuition or evidence?”—Well I must admit the intuition of women on this board have been absolutely amazing.
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Anne and Mary have called it on several occasions not so I will wait for their input.
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Correction now*
@thwack
“what problem are you trying to solve?”
Not to be terribly rude but what the f*ck are you talking about?
*Darn it! I have got to get a grip on responding to nonsense.*
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smh.reminds me of asplund, he reapeated the same phrase over and over again before he revealed it was his name within the phrase.
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@mstoogoood4yall
I agree, thwack seems a lot like Asplund. Similar derailing tactics – throwing stink bombs and then pretending that they’re genuine questions/issues. No acknowledgment of data that contradicts his claims etc etc.
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Sharina said:
Ah, not only me then. I was beginning to wonder if I was just slow.
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I feel embarrassed that I said I liked his comments. Is this Asplund?
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“Intuition or evidence?”
Thank you Ebonymonroe, and agreed Sharina.
It might be thought that my question was somehow leaning toward evidence over intuition. It was not. I actually respect both. I just wanted to know which one it is in this case.
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@Kiwi,
Do you know if this female had a white father? Do you find any difference between those with white fathers and Asian fathers?
You encounter many more American HAPAs than I do and the nature of your encounters will be different. I am not sure how useful my experience would be for you. A HAPA female with a white Dad will grow up seeing white men as partners to both white women and Asian women. They will not see many examples of Asian men with Hapa women. There will be no role model for them.
I feel that both full Asian and HAPAs who grew up in the USA and who did not question the whitewashed education that the school system fed them will both become very whitewashed. It is amazing how they quickly had no interest in either Asia or Asian-American history and embraced the idea of becoming honourary white people. If I broach the subject of Asian-American history with any post 80s people, they seem to think that it was SO SO long ago and so irrelevant.
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@legion,
I must admit that I do not get what Kiwi is driving at when he talks about his cousins that way. I get the impression it is more the former.
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Asian men seem so emasculated by everyone in the USA, even by their white wives (the few who are married to white women). I don’t know why there is so much psychological compulsion in the USA to emasculate Asian men. In fact, it (this compulsion) is one of the things (among many) that I dislike about the USA.
I also found it interesting that on Abagond’s most gorgeous East Asian Men page, about half were multiracial part-white or part-black. I think the title should be changed to gorgeous multi-racial Asian men. I know that many in Asia might not necessarily classify them all as Asian.
I also did here some Asian women in the USA tell me how unappealing Asian men were – I was not as bad as I had a white mother. Listening to that turned me off as I did not want to hear yet another person tell me about their racial self-hatred. But I have also heard many get nasty to me about MY ancestry. It is just another huge hang-up in America.
Sometimes, I wonder if I need to start some website or movement to deal with this racial self-hatred endemic in the USA. Or maybe write a story of a 21st century Asian-American who is smug about his honorary white status who mysteriously wakes up in a western town in 1886.
I wonder if in 100 years, White Americans will actually be about 10-15% Asian. They will talk about their distant Asian ancestors similar to how they talk about their distant Native American ancestors today. And what kind of identity would be available to the 7th or 8th generation Asian-Americans in the 22nd century?
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Kiwi, I call you those names because of dumb things you have said about me, using political rhetoric you really have no idéia of the origins, among other things…your personal dating problems are none of my concern except when you try to transfer them into comments about my dating habits , in the most rude juvenil fasion
If 20 percent of Asian women dont like you , why arnt you concentrating on the other 80 percent? Im not saying racism doesnt exist, but, compared to the obstacles I dealt with in the 60 s , from all sides, you have it easy..
You cant be consulting statistics looking for a mate, that is suicide. It doesnt help , you have your mind made up about Asian American women, and only apear to have transfered your feeling about yourself onto them…they can smell your hostility a mile away…
No racism or statistics should stop people from finding each other, if people want to be together…it seems you want to dwell on the obstacles more than just going out and finding someone right for you…or you are using the obstacles as an excuse to cover something in you that really doesnt want to commit to someone…80 ,70, even 50 percent Asian women wanting to be with Asian men is a huge number…much bigger than the percentage of black women dating white men in the 60 s, and, it absolutly never affected my dating black women…if you can convey to a woman , that you really care about them , they will respond to that, except the ones who arnt interested…so, you move around them
And thanks for the grandslam home run easy lob pitch you set up for me on the other thread
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@Kiwi,
I see policemen speaking in infantile tones to black and brown men. I think it is that “boy” complex that overwhelms white men in low level authority positions.
For me, the most condescending treatment comes from immigration officers. They make it feel like I am trying to sneak into “their” country or question my motives for entering the USA or asking me if I am visiting relatives. Several times I have been accused of holding a fake passport and taken back for interrogration by immigration officers.
Hey, just going back to my “home” country. I don’t need a reason to enter the USA. I really hate being treated that way.
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This bashing , and pegging and stereotyping Asian American women is very interesting, id like to hear their standpoint, since they have been reduced to such a cartoonish leval…Im sure their are Asian women who have regected Asian men, and, why waste a minute with them? There vast amounts of Asian American women who would be happy with an Asian man…
In my journies to the usa, this dynamic of white men with Asian women doest play out in a big way on the street…the people I know who arnt
Asian, in relationships with Asians, are black..I dont trust my anecdotal experiance as blatent truth, but, the way people talk on here, its like its rampant, something to panic over…this pegging and stereotyping of Asian American women on here , is very interesting..
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Kiwi
Don’t you find it funny how Randy’s Asian wife doesn’t date Asian men because she thinks they’re sexist and patriarchal
I wonder how much truth there is in what appears to have been projected on here by Randy about his wife. In my experience, particularly when some WP are in IRR, they live in fear of their black/asian partner really wanting to be with some one of their own race.
Years ago, one person explained to me that because they felt that aesthetically and physically the people in their partners own race ‘looked better’ he felt that he didnt even come close to this and could never get over why they chose him.
Of course, there are always more sinister reasons why individuals would say or even ‘imply’ what their non white partner thinks of people from their own race. it still links in to the fear that their non white partner is secretly desiring people from their own race so, the WP will manifest and project all that THEY feel is negative about that particular race to ‘reassure’ themselves that these are the reasons why their non white partner would not go with someone of the same race as themselves. This works on 2 levels – one, the WP is really able to ‘vent their spleen’ re their OWN prejudices and two, they will not be labelled as a ‘racist’ because they can tell people that these thoughts came from their ‘non white’ partner.
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Correction
why they chose him *why she chose to be with him
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I’m wondering about the education of Wall Street Journal reporters:
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB10001424052702304632204579339311984384386.html
Now she does indeed need an explanation concerning Monsieur Cannibale, the story that attraction is based on, comes straight from the 60’s song with that name played there. We are talking about a song describing pornography, group sex, adultry and leaving the (white) wife for black sex partners blasting joyfully out of the speakers for all the little kiddies to hear (though they might miss it, if they don’t understand French). You’re not in Kansas anymore, but way south of the Bible belt…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YwSTThGDMo)
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Sorry, it was not my intention to embed THAT song, though catchy its content is not really fit for everybody.
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Jefe:
I don’t doubt that this happens. However, in our house we encourage our kids to embrace their entire “rainbow” of heritages. A white friend of mine, married to an asian woman, primarily speaks his wife’s mother tongue their children in order for them to grow up bilingual.
You might be surprised at how well-rounded and inclusive many mixed families actually are.
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While reviewing the responses to my last query regarding the value of marriage; which no one would address by the way, I came to the conclusion, and its a tragic one because it undermines everything I thought I was trying to do, that the best arguement against marrying a black female is made by black females themselves.
Sadly, its that simple.
You can call it ignorance, arrogance, or the strong black woman syndrome… but what ever you call the attitude, it is RELENTLESS, and thus not remediable by practical improvements in technology, education, or finance…
Its that fatal combination of ignorance and apathy, “I don’t know and I don’t care!”
Its bad enough you can’t TELL them anything , but you can’t SHOW them anything either.
You can’t make a case for marrying black women because black women won’t let you. They will fight tooth and nail to deny the value of marriage; including its necessity for raising confident, healthy children, and then they wonder why no man wants to marry them?
Well, duh?
So fellahs, don’t feel guilty about taking a non black or even a white wife, you can’t fix _____; and even if you could, is that how you want to spend the rest of your natural life? You don’t have to sacrifice yourself on the alter of “The Strong Black Woman” in order to keep your “black credentials” so don’t do it. Instead, try to find a female who ALREADY understands the value of marriage and respects it. Study her parents, her siblings, and most importantly, HER FEMALE FRIENDS.
Don’t allow a black female to project her limitations on to you; thats not your cross to bear. If you are a good man who understands the value of marriage, you DESERVE a good woman who can and ALREADY does the same.
Make YOUR position on marriage clear to her and
If you get the slightest hint of pushback?
Bounce!
And don’t look back.
And just remember, at the end of the day, IM not telling you to avoid marrying black women,
black women are.
Its the one thing THEY do BETTER than anybody else.
*Be advised*
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Legion
@ thwack
I know so.
——————————————————–
Thats interesting because no one seems to say that on their death bed?
Are you sure you’re not a black female?
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@ Thwak
Actually it’s weird. I thought that I posted an answer (I remember the very phrasing I used to type it out) but when I returned to the post several hours later, I couldn’t find it.
My answer to your question was: All other things being equal, a home with both a father and mother is the most advantageous to children.
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King
My answer to your question was: All other things being equal, a home with both a father and mother is the most advantageous to children.
————————————————————————————————-
Cue black female lynch mob in 5,4,3,2,1…
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@ Thwak
As to the rest of your comment, you are off base.
You came to this topic making an argument about Black women, and pretty much asking why nobody wanted to marry them. When Black women (and men) responded with counter-evidence painting a less dire trend on the subject, you disagreed, which is your right. But now, you realized that the view you had latched onto was at least in contention and that other possible perspectives existed.
But then, you quickly shifted the subject to being about your 5 sisters who were ALL unmarried, and how your ill-recieved interrogatory campaign was really about finding a solution for your poor sisters. This made it possible to shift the discussion from the growing blowback to your dire perspective on the chances of Black women getting married, to a “nobody cared enough” deflection/accusation.
So now, having spoken to approximately half a dozen Black women on a single website, you have managed to come to blanket conclusions about ALL black women. Your stated conclusions are as follows.
– Black women cannot easily find a husband
– This is the fault of Black women, due to their own headstrong stupidity
– Therefore, Black men should feel no guilt abandoning Black women
Interesting conclusion, and so quickly arrived upon! But one would think that with FIVE unmarried sisters, you would have a much higher opinion of single Black women. It didn’t take very much for you to turn from seeking solutions for them, to throwing them under the proverbial bus along with all the other Black women! What would they think of their own dear brother’s blanket statements about how obstinate, cranky, and foolish Black women are? What would they make of your advice to Black men to guiltlessly seek out other races of women on account of these apparent deficiencies?
But then, I don’t think they would think anything at all about your diatribe, because they obviously do not exist. Let me give you some advice… You do not have the level of intelligence necessary to pull of this deception. It is impossible for you to do this without more and more clearly giving yourself away. You should stop now. 🙂
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@ Jefe, you said:
(my emphasis)
Where does this compulsion come from?
In Abagond’s latest thread “White American racism against Blacks: 1600s”, he talks about the early USA’s labour system and how it had to became racialized to justify it to keep Whites on top. We’re all familiar with the stereotypes about black men and black women that came from it.
But, when the Chinese indentured labourers came to the USA, didn’t their subjugation and inferiority have to be justified by stereotypes too — in this case emasculating the sexual image of Chinese men (and other Asian men of different ethncities that came after).
I grew up hearing over and over, that Chinese men were ALL short and “small”, that they cooked and cleaned, and wore pony tails. Basically asexual.
Although in real life that didn’t stack up, those stereotypes prevailed to all Asian men.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHWY1HVo2Uc)
***
Recently on Irish tv, reruns have been playing of the sitcom “The Big Bang Theory” about geeky room mates. Most of the male characters lack social skills, but the one who is the most “feminine” acting is the South Asian character, Raj. His femininity is the running joke.
He is domesticated, “a brown Martha Stewart”.
He can’t speak to women.
(His sister, though, is a real goer, and readily beds White men.)
Obviously, femininity is inferior, any man who has “feminine” traits is inferior, and any culture which isn’t super-masculine must also be inferiorized…
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King
But then, you quickly shifted the subject to being about your 5 sisters who were ALL unmarried
———————————————————————————————–
There was nothing quick about it. I only took that action in response to certain people attempting to dismiss the importance of the problem by keeping black females who have the problem nameless and faceless.
Exhibit “A”, Let the court record indicate my first reference to the problem:
——————————————————————————-
on Mon 3 Feb 2014 at 14:55:38 thwack
My point is, you can’t expect white people to replace the system of racism with a system of justice as long as there are tangible SEXUAL benefits to white people for maintaining the system.
My brother is on his 2nd older than him, divorced with children from a previous marriage, not very attractive white wife.
Meanwhile, there are many young, attractive, thin black females who never get to get married once!
Matter of fact, some white women prefer to use black dating sites because they know they can get a ton of responses and better quality man than they can on a “mainstream site.
They go over there and poach all the good black men right out from under the sistahs.
(((shakin my head)))
————————————————————————————————-
King continues:
“one would think that with FIVE unmarried sisters, you would have a much higher opinion of single Black women.”
————————————————————-
Im trying to but black females won’t let me.
Go back and read the court record King; throwing me under the bus won’t solve the problem.
Neither will another pep rally.
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Nobody who has 5 Black, unmarried sisters whom he loves and cares about, is going to make the following statements about “Black Women” in general, based on a web blog conversation:
etc.
No one except for one who already believed all of those things would come to those conclusions over a just a handful of exchanges within two days span, sorry. You’ve played your hand, and now certain things are apparent and can no longer be concealed.
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“Do you think life would be better for black people if more black women were married and their children were born into wedlock with fathers in the home supporting, protecting and defending the children and mothers?”
That is the question I asked that no person could or would answer,
not even you Mr. King; is that why you are running to excuse black women now?
I stand by my work Mr. King. Any man who marries a woman who cannot/willnot answer that question, in the affirmative, without hesitation and/or promting,
deserves all the hell he is going to get.
There is no need for black males to throw each other under the bus for the attention of black females; the cemetaries and prisons are already full of those guys.
you have options Mr. King,
Atleast I think you do?
Do you?
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@ Jefe
“I also found it interesting that on Abagond’s most gorgeous East Asian Men page, about half were multiracial part-white or part-black. I think the title should be changed to gorgeous multi-racial Asian men. ”
I understand, it is kinda weird seeing people that are multi racial seen as being the most beautiful of a race, even though they are a mixture of races. It kinda sets the bar high to where people that are of that race are not really seen as attractive unless they have certain features or are mixed. I see it all the time with lists of the attractive black women it’s always a mixed female on there being pushed as the most attractive black woman, when they should be viewed as an attractive woman period, but because of everything being centered around race, at least have them be the most attractive biracial woman. As imo having people that are biracial being seen as the beautiful people of one race is confusing. And I notice they never put biracial people as being the most attractive white person. It is like they want poc to compete against biracials while whites never have to.
And I will take it a step further and say some multi racial people are used to create division and self hate amongst the poc, because I see men and women going crazy over biracial features while being ashamed of their own. Its sad enough that kids of color have to go through wondering why their hair, eyes, nose, don’t look like the white kids at school, its another for them to have to wonder what is wrong with their hair, eyes, nose and why they don’t look like the multi ethnic people that are “representing” their race in movies, products, and magazines that are supposed to be centered around their race.
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Like I said before. Abagond attracts complete nuts.
So now married black women are bad because they will not help unmarried black women???
(side note* I did not care about thwack’s comments enough to actually read them so do feel free to correct me where I am wrong.)
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@ omnipresent
“In my experience, particularly when some WP are in IRR, they live in fear of their black/asian partner really wanting to be with some one of their own race.”
I agree, I’ve seen some white people that are in irr that will stare a black person down for looking at or being around their black partner. And the insecure ones will get on the internet and make vids or write articles about what the black people of the opposite sex should do and why their partner is with whites instead of their own race. And some of them will get their non white partner to co sign their racist bs. It is annoying that some act like just because they are with a person of another race, they all of a sudden have authority and insight to speak on the issues and dysfunctions of that race, all the while ignoring or not addressing the role racism/white supremacy has played in the way poc act towards each other.
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@ sharina
idk what the heck is going on. I tried reading this stuff but some of it is repetitive, and contradictory. I see king has this so I leave this stuff to the men to hash out.
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I have already answered it in the affirmative.
The real issue now is one of your own integrity, sir. Even if every woman on here had been 100% off-base in answering you (which they weren’t) it would still give you no grounds to make the all-inclusive characterizations that you have made about Black women. Your disagreements here give you no more just cause than a White a man who is mugged in a park by 5 Black men who then goes on to draw from his experience the conclusion that ALL Black men are violent and dishonest.
You have left debating and have gone headlong into Racism. Because that is what it is when you malign ALL Black women based of their race, rather than on their individual actions. I have no patience for racism from White people, and even less for Black racists, because they should know better! So either way, I’m done.
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^^ co-sign.
Thwack is either Asplund or someone very much like him.
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mstoogood4yall
“I see it all the time with lists of the attractive black women it’s always a mixed female on there being pushed as the most attractive black woman,”
—————————————————————————————————–
Why don’t you make up your own list of most attractive black woman and put an unmixed black woman at the top of it?
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abagond
Thwack is either Asplund or someone very much like him.
———————————————————————————————-
Who is “Asplund?”
and who is “Adonis?”
and where did they go?
abagond, I’ll answer anything you ask me.
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@ Thwack
Why do you have an anti-black racial slur in your email address?
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@mstoogood4yall
Agreed. King handled it quite well.
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abagond
@ Thwack
Why do you have an anti-black racial slur in your email address?
——————————————————————————————————
Im not sure its a slur?
Years ago I was listening to one of the Tuskeegee airmen who was shot down and captured by the Luftwaffe describe the confusion among German pilots regarding the existence of black fighter pilots.
He said the German pilots who claimed to have seen them, engaged in dogfights with them, got shot up, shot down by them… were RIDICULED by other German pilots and accused of seeing black ghosts, or “spookwaffes”.
But as their losses mounted and they made the connection between red tails on the planes and black pilots in the cockpit, the term lost its pejorative meaning and became one of respect.
When they saw him, they knew it wasn’t a myth.
That being said, the etymology of the word is questionable because it is unclear whether the term was coined by:
1. The black American fighter pilots
2. The German fighter pilots
or
3. The White American fighter pilots
regardless, I like it. I personally have no problem with other people connecting me to the color black through its subconcious descriptors such as the unknown, secrecy, cryptics, justice…
white people, ESPECIALLY Germans have ALWAYS use references to the color black for all their cool, powerful, serious explicators, while telling black PEOPLE it has no value and should be avoided.
And we believe them (well, I don’t, but most of us do)
Here are two examples:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlQhDN1Onho)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSc_8f8YPEM)
Let me know if that doesn’t answer your question.
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Peanut
@ ABAGOND, Thwack posts a lot on heartiste just so you kno
———————————————————————————————–
Peanut, are you a secret follower of mine?
Don’t get your self in trouble with “team black women?”
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@ Thwack
“abagond, I’ll answer anything you ask me.”
Why do you have an anti-black racial slur in your email address?”
Oh wow the plot thickens….
“@ ABAGOND, Thwack posts a lot on heartiste just so you kno”
and it grows thicker by the minute…now it is getting to the truth.
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https://www.facebook.com/StoneCenterSWPHL
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ooh my friend is taking me out tonight for drinks
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wow i haven’t been to heartiste for some time, since that debacle here even then
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@thwack
I’m gonna look over my suspicions to try to explain to you, once again, what seems to have gone completely over your head. No one said marriage isn’t important, or that having oow children is okay. I myself am extremely conservative in my beliefs this area. We posted articles explaining that THE MAJORITY of Black men and women are getting married to each other and that oow children in the Black community is not particularly an issue at this time. Married Black women are having too few children, so the total of children born in the community to married AAs is small. But oow children numbers are at their lowest in decades. If the problem is to be fixed, married couples will have to start having more, because while oow children have dropped by 1/3, children born to married AAs have dropped by over 1/2. It’s simple math. If you’re sincere in your concern on this, scroll up and read the articles again, as you seem to have completely skipped the information.
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aha maybe thwack speaks PUA
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mstoogood4yall
all the while ignoring or not addressing the role racism/white supremacy has played in the way poc act towards each other
Yes, this is horrible when it is played out but the worst thing is that many dont realise they are participating in something that has been fed to them by centuries of a racist oppresive system.
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Peanut
@ thwack i think u spent too much time on heartiste cuz u clearly r biased against bw no doubt about it
——————————————————————————————————
And black women are often biased against themselves, so where do they go?
A pep rally?
The truth is black and ugly, thats why nobody wants it; until they have nothing else left.
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So thwack, tell us how you really feel.
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@mstoogood4yall
You know what I find odd. Why are the black men that claim they don’t care for black women etc. the main ones so focused on them it is almost laughable. They change anything into a talk about what black women are or are not doing. I am waiting on them to realize that because she is not doing it for you…does not mean she is not doing it for someone.
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@ Peanut
Thanks for the heads-up on Thwack.
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it does look like i will be going to lesotho, i have a whole bundle of different feelin some type of way’s about that but, idk maybe it’ll work out, caint be worse than now
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abagond
@ Peanut
Thanks for the heads-up on Thwack.
——————————————————————————————-
abagond, the people at Heartiste accuse me of being a white person, and tried to get me banned for it.
Some people here accuse me of being a “black sock puppet’ (white person) and want me banned for it.
Do you know how/why two groups of people diametrically opposed to each other would come to this same conclusion?
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I’m sorry, but I seem to have missed the posts calling thwack a black sock puppet or calling for him to be banned. hmmm…..
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Peanut
. I don’t know wher people get off calling black women inherently ugly,
————————————————————————————————–
Thats the connection between “game” and racism. When I first started reading Heartiste I kept having this feeling of deja vu. It was because of the concept of “frame” they promote on the site as a PUA technique.
White people use the same mechanism to practice racism.
You create a “frame” with words, words and actions which establish and maintain a power dynamic in your favor by devaluing the OTHER person so they seek your acceptance.
The constant drumbeat of “black women are not attractive” makes them easy to get in bed. Same thing with black people. The constant drumbeat that black people are not smart makes us seek out validation from white people even when we are BETTER than them.
You may dismiss Heartiste as some kind of freak; but he is on the leading edge of human behavioral analytics. In addition, since the readership is mostly white males, they have a very broad and deep knowledge base to draw on for synchronicities, error checking and cross referencing…
Sure, they get diverted into logic traps sometimes from overthinking things, but thats to be expect because white men know they have to seek out and know the truth in order to lie to and mislead nonwhite people (and keep us from it), and therefore stay more powerful.
They have proven effective at doing this;
so far.
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Sharina
@mstoogood4yall
You know what I find odd. Why are the black men that claim they don’t care for black women etc. the main ones so focused on them it is almost laughable.
——————————————————————————————————
May I chime in?
thank you.
*chime*
For SOME of them its because they don’t realize they have options; which is one area that reveals the hidden nexus of white male and black female cooperation against black males.
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“since I’ve woken up and lost about 20 pounds, I’ve been getting attention from men…men of all races. just the other day on the train, i had man come up to me out of the blue and tell me right in front of everyone…”you’re a beautiful girl.”
Good for u peanut i’m happy for u 🙂 . We can’t allow negativity to define us or control us. I bet ur grandma was beautiful, it is interesting seeing pics of grandparents when they were younger and seeing how much or how little they have changed. Here everything is about race even beauty, it makes no sense to me, I see beautiful black women and men approach them. I was at the gym one time and this beautiful fit sistah with a nice fro was working out and about 2 or 3 brothas were talking to her.
Black women are very beautiful when everything is together personality, smile, energy,etc. I never believed the hype, my mom looks great for her age and I remember going to bed bath and beyond with her and this younger black guy started talking to my mom and being like oh don’t I know u, but he had her confused with someone else but still was trying to talk to her and i’m standing there like really u young enough to be my brother.
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@ sharina
A lot of them are either lonely or miserable, misery loves company. I don’t worry about those black males as they focus on black women all the while white racism goes unchallenged by them. I see them on youtube all the time. talking about black women, weave, self hating black women, etc, but then when white males start taking over their creations they start complaining , really if they were more focused on racism/white supremacy they would’ve seen their stuff getting jacked a long time ago and not be surprised now. Those males can complain about black women all they want but in the meantime black males are being killed, imprisoned, profiled, and a killer is profiting off of a dead child. And some black women are doing something and starting petitions to get stuff shut down. I let those types sulk in self pity, and thinking they are all alone. Some of the things I hear some of them say sounds like b@ys saying no girls allowed in an all b&ys club some of them will say all we have is each other black men, it sound suspect as hell to me when some of them say it.
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ok peanut
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@thwack
It is proper to wait for an answer when a question is asked.
“For SOME of them its because they don’t realize they have options”—Glad you have an answer for the some. Now all is left is to explain the majority of those type of men who are running out for these non-black women but still spend most of their time talking/complaining about black women they don’t want.
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In other news. Could someone direct me to this secret black women white man organization that is holding the black man down? I heard of white supremacy, but can it really be white if the black woman is now “suppose” to be involved?
(sarcasm off)
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@Peanut
Exactly! They spend way to much time energy and scientific research on something that they deem unattractive. Makes you wonder how true it is or if they simply need to tell themselves the same thing over and over in hopes it will come true.
@mstoogood4yall
I agree 100%!
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Sharina
In other news. Could someone direct me to this secret black women white man organization that is holding the black man down?
—————————————————————————————————–
Sharina, are you refering to the hidden nexus of white male, black female cooperation against the black male?
Actually, I got sloppy with the language. It should read: “cooperation for control of the black male”
Its not really hidden if you think about it. I’ll be diplomatic and say it this way:
1. Both the white man and the black female want more control over where the black male puts his penis.
2. Both the white man and the black female want to limit the sexual options available to the black male (but for different reasons)
In other words, they seek the same outcome although their motivations are different (but the effect on the black male stays the same)
The result is the black male is retarded in his ability to grow because both white males and black females, working from their insecurities, cooperate to limit the options of black males.
They BOTH do this out of fear. Fear that the black male may grow AWAY from them.
A more vulgar example of this phenomenon is when you get in an arguement with your pro black, afrocentric, black queen super nubian… girlfriend/wife; so you decide to leave the house instead of arguing.
What does she do?
Picks up that phone and calls that “white man” claiming you hit her.
See how that works?
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The fight between George Zimmerman and dmx has been called off, thank goodness. http://news.yahoo.com/celebrity-fight-between-rapper-dmx-george-zimmerman-called-002218554–box.html
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Peanut
Glad to see u grow into ur own and not worrying about things u cannot control. There have been plenty of black people that have had to take a break or step away all together from trying to solve things for the black community because its a lot of dysfunction and infighting and it gets tiring. I don’t care about the people that date out or the ones that destroy themselves and not care, that is them and their life to live not mine. I have never really worried about the black males that date out I just wish they’d keep black women’s names outta their mouth but that won’t happen either. So I just ignore them. I realize that there are a few black males that are real and I just go to their blogs and talk to them. The others are just placeholders and time wasters. I do not think black women should stoop so low to argue with these males as no man I know will waste time arguing with a female or trying to prove something. theres a link I will email u.
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@ Peanut
When I first started dating my wife I didn’t find her particularly attractive because I had been raised to appreciate all things white. I was at a point in my life where looks were important but character and personality were more so. In time their came a shift where she became the most beautiful thing in my life. So my perception changed and in a crowd I don’t notice white women any more.
If you were to show a picture of a black man in a suit next to a white man in a suit my wife would choose the black man as most handsome. I’m OK with that as it doesn’t threaten me. She shows me how she feels everyday in how she looks at me, touches me ect.
I have changed but she hasn’t. She can love her community and still appreciate me as an individual and find me attractive. She didn’t have to give up one for the other.
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Peanut, interesting you telling me to ease up on Kiwi…he has brought false mis charactorisations of me and things Ive said , cronicly. He has been intellectualy dishonest, and did so right above, when he mentions a bunch of things he sais I called him in relationship to his dating problems , when it was confronting him about falsehoods he said about me
No, when somebody plays that fast and loose with facts, tells falsehoods about me or things ive said, im going to bear down on them…they are the ones who need to back down on their bs…Kiwi must want my advice since he just brings up my name out of the blue…all mischaractorised and filled with falsehoods…
and im just telling him the truth…the guy focuses in on 20 percent of Asian American women who date white men, and makes that the main focus…these women are already with other men, they are off the table for that moment, yet , that is his focus…not on the 80 percent of Asian American women not with white men…those women have made their minds up…a non hung up person just understands “for whatever reason, whether their own color issues, racism or just love, these women are not interested , right now, ‘ and move on to women that are interested …getting stuck on the women who just arnt interested, for what ever reason, good or bad, only reveals an inner turmoil that cant even look pasrt it at the huge available pool of Asian American women out there who would be open to a date with an Asian American male
Omnipresent, your experiance with men who date other race of women and fear the men of the race of that woman , seems really perplexing, since the opisite is what is logical…if im dating a woman of another race, that means she is open to men of another race…logicly , id be jealous of men outside of her race, that she is open to being with as much as any man of her race…i just file what you are saying as another interracial sex stereotype…it certainly doesnt aply to me…or anyone who thinks with any kind of logic
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@ abagond
I’d like to use the name, “nerdywordygirl” from now on. It seems there is another Aussie woman using the ‘wordynerdygirl’ name on the interwebs so thought I should change it up a (very) little.
Please let me know if this is ok…
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Kiwi said:
There was an item on UK radio a few weeks back where they did an undercover survey of residential letting agents. They found several who would welcome white prospective tenants but who, in identical circumstances, would falsely tell POC applicants that properties were no longer available.
I was genuinely surprised that things are still that stupid. In the 1950s and 1960s, British guest houses and bed & breakfast places often used to display the infamous “No dogs, black, Irish” signs in their windows. Looks like the mentality endures, it’s just a little embarrassed to be a tad less fashionable, so the tactics are less honest and more devious.
It’s horrifying and embarrassing.
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Michael John Barker said:
If you were to show a picture of a black man in a suit next to a white man in a suit my wife would choose the black man as most handsome. I’m OK with that as it doesn’t threaten me. She shows me how she feels everyday in how she looks at me, touches me ect.
I have changed but she hasn’t. She can love her community and still appreciate me as an individual and find me attractive. She didn’t have to give up one for the other.
mstoogood4yall
The above is an example of what I was trying to say earlier . Obviously, I do not know either individual but what strikes be as that although Michael said he doesnt feel ‘threatened’ by his wifes preference, he still assumes/surmises, that she would choose a BM over a WM.
I am surprised that anyone would not feel disgruntled if their partner deliberately and continually chose someone of their own race over (non white) over a white person as, with the best will in the world there may generally be exceptions to this.
B.R
Omnipresent, your experiance with men who date other race of women and fear the men of the race of that woman , seems really perplexing, since the opisite is what is logical…if im dating a woman of another race, that means she is open to men of another race…logicly , id be jealous of men outside of her race, that she is open to being with as much as any man of her race…i just file what you are saying as another interracial sex stereotype…it certainly doesnt aply to me…or anyone who thinks with any kind of logic
I am not sure I am getting all that you have said correctly but I agree with you (I think 🙂 ) that in a logical sense, if a non white person was dating a white person that rather than the white person focusing on the fact that their non white partner ‘might’ harbour prefences of attraction to their own race, that in fact that the white partner could/should be concerned that their non white partner might be attracted to various different races. Obviously by dating outside of their own race, the non white person must be ‘open’ to other forms of IR dating potentially.
In this example, I am not thinking about ‘SEX’ but more about the dynamics of people. May I ask, do you have many WM friends who are in IR relationships? Of the IRR I have seen – these are the observations based on conversations with people I have spoken to.
Also B.R, you are not going around telling people that your non white partner thinks little of the men in her race are you? This is what my initial comment was referring to. Those men who do, and that is what was being said on this blog here, what is their agenda? There must be something in the way of insecurity. Being a product of an IR relationship that child – even though they may ‘look’ white, will always also have the legacy of their non black heritage. It makes no sense to me that the white parent would perpetuate sterotypes that may one day be used to label their own child unfavourably.
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@kiwi, in the words of Bill Clinton, “I feel your pain”. But as I am the product of several generations of various mixes, I have to admit I have a hard time picking a side to fight for. All I understand is that everyone should be treated fairly and with equal regard. My advice is to fight that fight instead of trying to get inside someone’s head and figure them out.
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Exactly, ditto to a number of points touching on this. A lot of those Black men online already claim to be in happy, healthy relationships with non Black women, but they still spend a lot of their time going on about Black women. That doesn’t make any sense. If you’re in a happy relationship already why would you be focused on the women you claim to hate. It’s not about options. I think a lot of those cats aren’t all there; I think a lot of them are the ones Black women pass over because they’re emotionally unbalanced and therefore, completely unsuitable as husband and father material, so now they weep about what they can’t get and keep, they obsess and spit at the thing they can’t get, that they want deep down inside. Silly boys.
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Ebonymonroe
but they still spend a lot of their time going on about Black women. That doesn’t make any sense.
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Thats because they are trying to compensate for the time they wasted trying to find the one good black woman. Its quite normal for a person who suffers a revelation to become a zealot in the new found truth they have learned; and to warn others.
Especially since many of us are raised by single black women and therefore will NEVER hear the truth. For example, most black males in the cemetary or prison are there because of black females, NOT white females.
Yet black females run around warning us “you better not marry that white woman.” And the white man is all too happy to back her up; see how they work together to limit a black mans options?
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Listen thwack, if a man is really a man, he will not care what others will say as to whom, what, or it, he dates. Heck, he can even court Lassie if both are consenting creatures. Mind you, he would have to watch Lassie’s teeth when they are French kissing on their first date. You see thwack, your choices are myriad, or should I say Legion?
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thwack
I gladly and with no hesitation place the foil hat on your head. Your example makes up maybe .005% of actual domestic violence situationsn In fact I have ran across more white females that do that to white men than black females that do that to black males. You have a better chance of said females pulling and Angela Bassett in waiting to exhale than you do of her calling the police.
Besides that crime stats seem to show black men in jail more for other crimes. So the imaginative cooperation is an trumped up excuse by some black men to play the grass is greener card. I find it interesting that men married to black women don’t have the same issues that some black men swear up and down they have.
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That’s ridiculous. I’ve dated quite a few fantastic Black women. They are not hard to find.
Actually most Black men who are in the cemetery (aside from old age) are there because of another Black man… is that too a “revelation?”
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@ Herneith
No, when I last checked, Legion was getting a leg up, with some help from Gershwin.
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Peanut
@
Thwack studies have shown black women are less likely to report domestic violence than ww BECAUSE they do not want another bm to go to jail
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What you are describing is a phenomenon called “team woman VS team MY MAN”. No woman wants HER man to be harmed; as long as he is HER MAN. Let him try to leave and see how fast she is on the phone to that white man.
Just look at your own behavior Peanut?
As soon as you thought I left the black woman pep rally you picked up the phone and said:
“@ ABAGOND, Thwack posts a lot on heartiste just so you kno”
See how that works fellas?
Another example of “team woman VS team MY MAN” is voting patterns. When women are single they vote Democrat because they are the party that will tax everybody, especially men, to fund programs that benefit single women.
But then when they get married, they become conservative because they don’t want THEIR man taxed to fund the single women and their bastard children.
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@Ebonymonroe
I agree 100%. I have a theory that I will elaborate on later.
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@thwack
All you managed to do was make a bunch of claims with no real ability to support them. So now you try to paint it as some phenomenon you call “team woman VS Team MY MAN.” You might want to get a better schtick or perhaps just stop attempting to debate with foil hat logic.
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Silly billy, within 48 hrs u went from demonizing your brother 4 marrying a White woman, who you said was no good, to hating Blk women. So transparent. And all because we provided you with info on the fact that most blk w are getting married and oow children is not particularly a problem at this time? Blk men know they have options but 88% marry blk women. Black men are the no 1 killers of blk men, and most blk men are behind bars due to the prison industrial complex slave trade under the guise of a war on drugs. Also, Blk women have not been shown to avoid prosecuting blk men only when they’re in active relationships. And the highest divorce rate is between Blk men and White women. Such a silly billy.
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Also, Peanut said although she loves and prefers Blk men, she’s open to interracial marriage, long before you came along. Abagond is not White, and I voiced my suspicions about you before you true feelings came out, a number of days ago, now.
(Giggles.)
If your intent is to convince more Blk men to marry out because you believe Blk women are a monolith of evil, I very much doubt a blog like Abagond’s (which is anti racist) is the appropriate place to do that. But that’s not what you want, ha? You just want attention from Blk women, ha?
(Giggles.)
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Liberty of the pen!s? I would have thought judicial, occupational, and economic liberty would be the first issue at hand, but this is what you c00ns have been reduced to, your value, to you, is just what they long told you you’re worth, your pen!s. Pathetic. A non Black woman can have you, I don’t know what kind of sista would. Silly billy.
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Ebonymonroe
Silly billy, within 48 hrs u went from demonizing your brother 4 marrying a White woman, who you said was no good, to hating Blk women.
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I wasn’t demonizing my brother. I was pointing out how our ignorance of the mechanics of the white supremacist system influences our decisions. Even at the time I really didn’t have a problem with him marrying a white woman; its just that she was a “retread”;
older than him, two children from a previous marriage, homely…
He was qualified for a better white woman, at least a “slow leak”.
And he did it twice!
Now thats telling me something.
Im not a black female, so when God keeps trying to send me the same message, I don’t get all “strong black woman” and fight it.
I LISTEN, and then think about what I am seeing, and then I think about it some more…
Ive since then discussed the issue with him; in addition to educating myself on what men must do in order to avoid buy a “flat tire”
You do what you have to do.
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Ok darn it—only Omnipresent’s words should be blockquoted.
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In 48 hours? Lmao. No one has said anything about Strong blk women, no, these were things you originally felt, but didn’t show until now. You’re a very silly boy.
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“so when God keeps trying to send me the same message”—-ROFL!!! What better way to back up a claim than to say God is sending you a message.
P.S. This mess get’s more pathetic (Hilarious) by the paragraph. What next? Preach to swimmers about swimming.
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You also specifically said there are plenty of good Blk w so you couldn’t understand why ur brother married a w woman. 48 hrs later, you’re now saying all blk w are no good. You have shown your original intentions here, but you’re not smart enuff 2 c it. Also, if 75% of bw are married b4 35, if oow kids in the b community has dropped by 1/3, its lowest in 4 decades, so much so that a Hispanic w is now more likey to have an oow child than a b w, what is this problem you keep saying is so major?
U don’t care to hear facts because this was always how u felt about bw, it’s just coming out now.
So, so, silly.
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pohoebeprunelle
Hmmm, i’m curious Omnipresent…do you think this same logic applies to white women who are married to/date Men of Color?
There must be – jealousy, possessiveness, they are all human traits. The way that it comes out in women may be different though. Also, as women in the main are usually the ones who bring up the children, this can have long reaching consequences and see a generation of individuals that are constantly at odds with their mixed heritage and in turn perpetuate these negative sterotypes again and again. In this case the White Parent may say, ‘I never say these things in front of my kids’ but children are very perceptive and before long they will get a ‘sense’ of what this parent feels regardless.
Just to say, this is in an extreme case. Hopefully the world is so much more diverse so that people grow up and realise the negative stereotypes are the exception rather than the rule.
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@ thwack: Comment deleted for use of Mock Ebonics.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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“You also specifically said there are plenty of good Blk w so you couldn’t understand why ur brother married a w woman. 48 hrs later, you’re now saying all blk w are no good.”
rofl. it is crazy what can happen in 48 hours, went from being mistaken for a woman to being mistaken for possibly still being asplund. This is too much.
at this point this is all we can do : http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=smh+gif&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=04144D94982DDAAAA90A8B0BB201A85014DE65A5&selectedIndex=1
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http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Shaking+My+Head&Form=IQFRDR#view=detail&id=A2783F15DE97DD250ADBADF752AF99B28D19793E&selectedIndex=4 lol
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abagond
@ thwack: Comment deleted for use of Mock Ebonics.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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abagond, Im assuming the mock ebonics you referenced is my comment about teeth?
I have deleted the offending text and have found no others?
Is that the one?
Thank you.
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Ebonymonroe
Liberty of the pen!s? I would have thought judicial, occupational, and economic liberty would be the first issue at hand
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It is!
but you are so focused on fighting that you can’t make the intuitive step to see the connection.
Over at the Chateau, they began promoting this meme called:
Diversity + Proximity = War (where “diversity” = nonwhite people and proximity = contact with white people)
There was something about it that made me suspicious because I already knew it takes more words to practice racism than to practice justice.
Therefore, I knew if they got racism down to just 3 words, it could not be the truth.
What the racists really want to say but can’t is: Diversity + proximity does NOT = war, it equals FCKING.
They know that if you put a bunch of different people in close PROXIMITY to each other, they will start having sex with each other; including the white women.
Now, what does this have to do with your point:
“I would have thought judicial, occupational, and economic liberty would be the first issue at hand”
What would happen if you move a bunch of black guys into an office full of white women?
A war or an orgy?
Ebonymonroe, are you familiar with Dr. Francis Cress Welsing? I learned all this from a black woman. She says the major motivation for the practice of racism is the white males fear of genetic annihilation via the black male penis in the white vagina.
Thats what she says and based on my experiences, I agree 100%.
White women will already sleep with unemployed black males who are missing teeth. What would happen if black males had college degrees, good jobs and money?
See sweetie, for you its only about maintaining a pool of marriageable black males exclusive to you, but for the white man its a life and death matter of survival.
White + black = color
White + yellow = color
White + red =color
Did I make myself clear?
For further information I suggest reading The Cress Theory of Color Confrontation by Dr. Francis Cress Welsing
Or look up The Isis Papers
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mstoogood4yall
“You also specifically said there are plenty of good Blk w
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