“History” (395 BC) by Thucydides, as put into English by Thomas Hobbes, is one of the books that has most affected me. It is a history of the war between Athens and Sparta some 400 years before Christ. Thucydides not only lived at that time, he fought in the war itself on the side of Athens.
Thucydides taught me that human nature is the same in all countries and all ages. That men are driven chiefly by self-interest, that they use morals and fine words to dress up their sins. That you have to read between the lines. That empire has a dark side.
Hobbes’s English, meanwhile, taught me that writing in English is not about using long words, that things can be said more powerfully and clearly with ordinary words – that, in fact, long words are used more to cover up the truth than to show it.
I read it cover-to-cover at about the same time I read Jamaica Kincaid’s “A Small Place”, a book about white rule in Antigua. This made many of the same points about the nature of power and how to use English, giving yet more force to those points.
Further, I learned from Thucydides, as from George Orwell and James Baldwin, that the duty of the writer is to write the truth as clearly as possible. The truth plainly stated is far more valuable than lies decorated.
I had never fought in a war or lived through one, thank God. Thucydides would probably mean something very different to me if I had. But at the time I was living in a violent part of New York at the height of the Crack Era in the days of Reagan and Bush the Elder. And I lived in a land where I was told that the colour of a man’s skin affects his character and intelligence. It was this book, more than any other, that helped me to make sense of that.
That might seem odd but it is not. Thucydides says flat out that he is writing for the ages – and yet he knows that the war he is writing about will be forgotten in a few hundred years. Because he is not so much writing about the war itself – like how Churchill wrote about the Second World War – but is using the war as an example to show what men are like deep down, of how they act and why.
Right near the beginning of the the book is a speech by Pericles about how wonderful Athens is. But as the war pushes on each of his pretty words break – because they were lies about the true nature of Athens, a heartless power machine.
What I saw on television and learned at school did not match the America I knew. Thucydides helped me to see through the self-serving lies. He taught me that I have to see with my own two eyes and think with my own brain, that received truths are most often received lies.
See also:
Abagond 
This is an incredibly powerful post, Abagond. I will definitely have to read this at some point, especially since I’m fascinated by the truth of human nature rather than the gaudy lies.
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From the article:
“That men are driven chiefly by self-interest, that they use morals and fine words to dress up their sins.”
True to some extent, we are all self-serving machines but the degree of this varies. For one, this view that man is a complete self-serving machine out to maximize his own self-interest above that of everyone else is the cornerstone of game theory and pretty much underpins the modern capitalistic economic system. (A system where the top 1% own more than the bottom 90% combined in the USA alone)
The problem with this view is that, that is not all we are. Man is capable of putting others before him. Man cares about interests that aren’t directly related to him. Look at behavioural economics to find out more where the behaviour of man in real life goes against the theory put down by such esteemed people like John Nash.
However the psychopath on the other hand is no ordinary man. He is the one that is perfectly described by such theories. This world is build by and for him and the rest of us are nothing but “fillers”. Ask yourself who/what people/powers are responsible for building the environment we are all embedded in. For the most part, our environment determines how we act.
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I’ve been thinking heavily on a more macro level, on human nature, and on the very nature of racism in America, and I’m not sure Whites can co-exist with the rest of us in our future.
They’re simply too inclined towards developing policies of exploitation at others expense, which will surely accelerate as they shrink as a percentage of the American population. Its in their nature: whether it be colonialism, apartheid, segregation or slavery.
I say give them some proportional piece of America and send them on their way, so they can get that segregation they all secretly cry out for. Lets see how long their white privilege lasts without the rest of non-white America fueling their exploitative economic engines.
We’d be fine without them.
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I am also fascinated by what we take for granted as human nature. But I do find this description here puzzling given that it reflects a commentary from a Greek perspective on the known world at the time.
Human history goes much, much further and deeper than Greek history so what gives this perspective on human nature so much weight in your eyes Abagond?
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Recommended Viewing for those interested in the ideas of the motivation of human beings as seen by the designers of society.
The Trap – What happened to our dream of freedom?
The Trap is a series of three films by Bafta-winning producer Adam Curtis that explains the origins of our contemporary, narrow idea of freedom. It shows how a simplistic model of human beings as self-seeking, almost robotic, creatures led to today’s idea of freedom. This model was derived from ideas and techniques developed by nuclear strategists during the Cold War to control the behavior of the Soviet enemy.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqDwAoENMwo&feature=player_embedded&list=PL56BDA9D8AD678202#!)
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@ Abagond
Most creatures operate on a level of self-interest. Survival depends on it.
Where we go wrong is the quest for ultimate power and the control that goes along with it. This can be seen right here in America. I agree somewhat with Wilson that we are capable of putting others before our selves…but for the majority of us, there must be something in it for us as well.
Now, there are a few of us that don’t subscribe to that premise but they are very few and far between.
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LAAAHHHHMMEEEE!!!!!!
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^^^ I mean “lame.”
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Well interesting that in your link the narrator attacks Adam Curtis and not what his documentary is actually about.
Anyways I put it there for those interested who can then make up there own minds.
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Books
Technopoly – Neil Postman
The Most Human Human – Brian Christian
You are not a gadget – Jaron Lanier
Videos and Interviews
Jaron Lanier’s can be found on his Wikipedia
Ivan Illich on Wikipedia (especially Corruption of Christianity)
When you have copied these first set of jutsu, you’ll understand my contempt for Curtis. Don’t worry – you’ll master that jutsu too, so you’ll see…..
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@wilson
Are you familiar with the Turing test and the Chinese room argument?
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@Satanforce
“Are you familiar with the Turing test and the Chinese room argument?”
Not before you mentioned them but I have now searched them up.
Satanforce is your argument that unlike machines, humans exhibit intelligent behaviour? If this is it then I don’t get the problem you have with Adam Curtis. All he does is show how policy makers and politicians have designed society on the premise that WE are machines and operate under certain basic tenets such as self-interest to the exclusion of everything else.
He basically criticizes this viewpoint by showing the paradoxical world it has sprung up around us.
Maybe It’d be better for you to just say what it is you think.
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“But at the time I was living in a violent part of New York at the height of the Crack Era in the days of Reagan and Bush the Elder. And I lived in a land where I was told that the colour of a man’s skin affects his character and intelligence. It was this book, more than any other, that helped me to make sense of that.”
Hmmm … I didn’t know that there are individuals who have lived in the US for more than a quarter century who continue to spell “color” as “colour.” I’m afraid Thucydides would call BS on this one.
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Colour is a perfectly acceptable spelling.
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I’ve read it too. Good book.
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@ Abagond
Colour is an acceptable spelling.
Studying the great works of great writers, philosophers, poets, and historians who write about, or have lived during the Greek and Roman empires can impart a lot of understanding about the current society we live in. Our justice system, infra structure, society is predicated on these ancient societies. Hitler and Napolean, are two individuals who attempted to implement a system of one world government and supramacy, based in part on the greatness of the Roman empire, but failed miserably. Guess Hiltler did not learn from Napolean, whenever you march on Russia, they just retreat..the severe winters will take care of you in no time.
Looking at all the post here, my conclusion is that modern society resembles “Brave New World” more than anything else. I do believe that what destinguishes man from all other creatures is the ability to transcend the self. To overcome our baser instincts and contribute to society, this belief gives me hope for mankind. The old question of nature versus nuture, environment versus biological predisposition. Trading spaces comes to mind. For some adversity, hardship, leads to tremendous positive change, for others adversity destroys. B.F. Skinner and the concept of Operant conditioning anyone? I suppose there might be a gray area somewhere.
Societal influences that overshadow our ability to make decisions and comprehend reality. The work of Edward Bernays, Michael Tsarion, and Alan Watt are good studies. Another key concept that was used in ancient Rome “Bread and Circuses, helped to open my eyes to what is going on.
White Supramacy in all it’s glory, in my estimation, is a good example of psycho pathology. What has happened in South Africa, once the system of Apartheid was dismantled, left a number of White South Africans impoverished, because they were ill prepared to adapt to life without the priviladge that came with that system. A number of Black South Africans have become successful, and they were improvished under the system of Apartheid.
In conclusion, any biological entity, human or non human, given an optimal environment suitable for its growth and survival will thrive. Our current world system which is predicated on inequity, and attempts to manipulate and control others, is doomed to failure. The system will crash, it is just a matter of when and how.
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Then you’ll probably love the works of Neil Postman:
@FG
The blog author has explicitly stated that he uses British spelling (too much Economist)
@wilson
Blogging right now, Will reply soon.
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Thank you, Kwamla.
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Thank you anonymous.
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@satanforce
Thanks for the link. I did enjoy it!
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I am glad to see at least one commentator (Dahoman X) has picked up on what should be an obvious glaring reflection about the aspects of human nature being depicted in this book review.
And even though some commentators have indirectly challenged this apparently universal perspective of patriarchal human nature. Most like – Satanforce or Abagond – appear to accept and debate it as a given?
Why? Even anonymous has conceded our present world view may well be predicated on people like:
So why should we accept or give such strong credence, when it pertains to human nature, to the works of a similar world view and perspective contained in a book like: Thucydides? This is what is puzzling to me because it sounds like a very Westernized and Euro-centered world view. As I stated earlier. Human history and its nature goes back a lot more than the last 2000 years.
In response to SW6’s request…Before recommending the reading of any European history books. A methodology of analysis needs to be employed from a totally different perspective. Such a perspective, I think, probably can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Yurugu-African-Centered-Critique-European-Cultural/dp/0865432481
.
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I like this post, especially “things can be said more powerfully and clearly with ordinary words – that, in fact, long words are used more to cover up the truth than to show it.”
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@satanforce
I read the link, I enjoyed it and I found that I am a distracted person one way or another.
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@ Kwamla
I see you recommend Yurugu to SW6. Good pick.
When I read the part where Abagond writes that “men are driven chiefly by self-interest, that they use morals and fine words to dress up their sins”, it immediately reminded me of the “rhetorical ethic” discussed by Marimba Ani:
http://www.africawithin.com/ani/excerpt_chap6.htm
Here is a link where one can read Yurugu online:
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“Colour is a perfectly acceptable spelling.
and so it is spelt in the B.W.I
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Thank you guys for bringing Marimba Ani into my life. I now feel very proud to be african. I just listened to a discussion involving her on youtube (after I saw kwamla’s post) and I must say it was very very enlightening. Anybody black/african who cares or is interested in their roots should listen to it or read her book in order to get a better overview of how to view the world from a non-european standpoint.
Yurugu – Dr Marimba Ani.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkkNa7eMyF0)
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@ Kwamla
I think you bring up some fair points. I will answer at length later.
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Yes! Yurugu is a must read.
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@ Dahoman X, wilson and Nana
Thank for you for your comments and the excellent links you’ve provided..
@ Abagond
I look forward to reading your comments…
An excerpt from the link provided by Dahoman X
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I’ve just read that “Yurugu” excerpt, and it has forced me to completely re-evaluate my opinions about Afrocentrist critiques about European historicism. Instead of just being LAME, its just derivative. Which I suppose is an improvement, however slight.
The problem with these Afrocentrist critiques is not in their inherent lameness, but that these same critiques were better done by, you guessed it, other Europeans. I could just go to my Nietzsche collection right now, open it up, and find any standard brand argument that is superior and more prescient than the one produced by Ali. I’ll let Rick Roderick show you.
You will. of course, realise that the Afrocentrist too uses words like “Africa”, “postcolonial” and “European” to mask their own self-interests. They simply wish to perpetuate a class imbalance, just with them on the top, with their own view of “Africa” imposed upon the rest of us
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That’s a very interesting choice of words you used to define humans – intelligent (Turing, A.I.) and behaviour (Skinner et. al.)
Let us propose that the Enlightenment dream of a reason-driven, free society has collapsed in on its own internal contradictions, forcing modern man to live in an “iron cage”, doomed to follow rules without meaning, condemned to live without freedom.
The way Curtis presents this thesis (however correct it is) is too counter-productive to be of any use – with one notable exception. This is because:
1) It relies too much on the narrative structure of antivillian–>evil plan–>failure to productively examine the historical movements of the time
2) He necessarily has to omit some very important concepts to fit the one hour episode format
3) He manipulates the opinions that he doesn’t agree
The first flaw, I feel, is the most damning, due to the fact he is forced to rely upon emotionalism, and narrative, rather than a reasoned logical argument with a cogent thesis (see the Iron Cage thesis above). As such, he must use the manipulate techniques that he accuses others of. This moves his arguments from hypocrisy to simple propaganda.
Think about – much of the modern world is built upon the events of the Long 19th Century (1776 – 1918). But Curtis can’t make a documentary going back that far due to 10 time constraints of one hour and 2) no such file footage exists that far back – you would have to actually lecture (use TV as a radio) and not depend on MTV style editing and Brian Eno style music.
You will realize the difference by listening to the audio versions of his documentaries here:
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/search/
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I just read that excerpt from Marimba Ani’s “Yurugu” about the rhetorical ethic. It is one of the main points Thucydides himself made, though of course he did not call it that. The Athenians used image to hide their self-interest. Thucydides, by assuming that men mostly act out of self-interest, was able to cut through that image and show it up for what it was.
Having read that I saw how it applied to America.
Therefore in the post I said:
By showing the rhetorical ethic in action in Athens it made it easier to see in America. It gave me a way to cut through “white is right”.
Ani says the rhetorical ethic is found only in European culture. I do not know enough to make that strong of a statement, though in my experience it is mainly a white thing. You see it right here on this blog.
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I use Oxford spelling:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/03/13/style-guide-oxford-spelling/
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I do think most people most of the time act out of self-interest, especially if you understand that that self-interest can take in their family and friends.
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@Abagond,
“Ani says the rhetorical ethic is found only in European culture.”
When she uses the term European, she means not only europe but white america and those in latin/asian countries influenced by european culture. Her point is that, european culture is anti-every other culture. Not only does t enslave us physically, like during colonial or hostile takeover of land, it enslaves us mentally. It then turns us to working against ourselves and the main point here being, no matter how hard we work, us non-europeans, non-white will never own the culture because the culture isn’t ours, its aim is just to assimilate us into it so that we can feed it and ensure its perpetuation with us at the bottom.
If you’ve got time, listen to the audio link or read the book…
@ Satanforce,
Thanks for responding.
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Abagond,
“Self-interest” is an interesting concept. In its fullness, self-interest ought to encompass the far-ranging outcomes of one’s actions as they reverberate throughout society and the world.
One might suggest that the highest morality one could hope to practice is indistinguishable from truly “enlightened” self-interest.
Recent findings from behaviorists and neurologists suggest that the human animal is rather ill-equipped for such an orientation, as demonstrated by a number of studies which argue against man as a rational creature (e.g. “Homo economicus doesn’t exist”)
Perhaps a central question which flows from such a consideration is: Do human societies suffer from too much self-interest or too little?
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One of my favourite History books!
Although I don’t remember the last time i read it; but I’m definitely going to reread it over and over again!
1 “Hobbes’s English, meanwhile, taught me that writing in English………………….. In fact, long words are used more to cover up the truth than to show it”.
2 “Further, I learned from Thucydides, as from George Orwell and James Baldwin, that the duty of the writer is to write the truth as clearly as possible. The truth plainly stated is far more valuable than lies decorated.”
PRICELESS!
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@ Wilson
Thats a excellent summation of Dr Marimba Ani’s “rhetorical ethic”. I am glad at least one person has taken the time to listen and read through this part of what she was conveying. Satanforce please take note…
@ Abagond
I have no doubt some of the characteristics of the “rhetorical ethic” can be accounted for in Thucydides’s descriptions. However, as Wilson has commented it goes much deeper than that. And you too in using Thucydides as a universal baseline for Human Nature have gone much deeper in your own conclusions:
That is in my understanding a profoundly Euro-centric view point. Thats puzzling in this blog?
@ Satanforce
You may have read that Yurugu – “rhetorical ethic” excerpt but its clear to me you didn’t understand or failed to comprehend it. Further… your process of thought is clearly shown in one of your dismissive statements in response to Dr Marimba Ani’s work:
I wonder would you?… Could you make the same argument for critiques about white supremacy? Let me make it for you then you can deny or agree with it
Its clear you in particular Satanforce would benefit most from reading Yurugu. Then it might give you an alternative cultural perspective to evaluate your nihilistic fascination for Nietzsche from.
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Its taking me some time to digest all that is here…
First, I really like what Abagond said about simplicity, in most arts, I find this to ring true for me….and the points Bell stated that Abagond said, about fancy words hiding the truthm and how the objective should be to state the truth not hide it
Now , Im listening to Dr Marimba Ani….she is blowing my mind…she is defining very well these things about African culture , that have been lost and diminished from European thinking
Thanks for the breakdown, Wilson, and the prodding, Kwamla
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Wow, Dr Marimba Ari is talking about African concepts, rhythm and how Africans relate to that, feeling things…..she is expressing in a very high leval some things I did a very poor job of trying to say on the Miles Davis thread and the Broken Africa thread
She is really blowing my mind
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( sorry, Dr Ani not Ari)
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@B. R.
Your objective assessments and honest commentary is refreshing to read. Keep it up!
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“Not only does t enslave us physically, like during colonial or hostile takeover of land, it enslaves us mentally. It then turns us to working against ourselves and the main point here being, no matter how hard we work, us non-europeans, non-white will never own the culture because the culture isn’t ours, its aim is just to assimilate us into it so that we can feed it and ensure its perpetuation with us at the bottom. ”
*******
Have you ever heard of the Sci-Fi based “Borg” collective?
I believe whoever came up with the “BORG” idea fashioned it (knowingly or not) after white-supremacy.
God help us all (and other sentient life forms) should white supremacy survive and be permitted to roam this and other galaxies.
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I wanted to ask some questions about the line of thinking we are talking about here.
Of course, I am absoluty fascinated with Dr Ani’s analysis.
But , Im wondering, isnt Abagond refering to the universality of man’s inhumanity to man? Which also existed in Africa?
Yes, there are differances in concepts of living , like Dr Ani referred to, but, isnt all of mankind capable of violence and conquest, therefor, the universality of what Thucydides talked about could aply like Abagond sais ? Im just curious and i might not understand the point…
How would we describe Genghes Kahn, the Aztecs and their huge amount of ritual killings,the Arab conquests of North Africa and into Europe, etc? Am I missing something here?
Also, I did look up “culture” in the dictionary to make sure Im not getting boring always reffering to music and dance , and, sure enough , music and dance are very strongly a part of culture.
And, it seems to me, that, yes, the white man wanted the African slave to submit to European culture, but, what really happened is, African culture absolutly dominated any place they brought African slaves to the market place…
I think its more of an attempted , and a failed superimposing of white culture over black African culture, and a discrimination from entering the “system” of the perspective countries these slaves were brought to. The white man didnt fail at developing his own racism and acting on exclusion of a people from entering that system .
Im just asking these questions to see if Im understanding the points being made.
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By the way, Kwamla, the first words out of my mouth now in discusions about ancient civilisations is “Dogon”, thanks to your incredible information about them
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Nihilistic fascination for Nietzsche? Ummm. dude, we just met. I am almost certain that you did not watch those two (back to back, 8 minute long) videos, where Prof. Roderick ( R.I.P.)shows Nietzsche’s critique from Section 15 of “On the Genealogy of Morals (Kauffman version).” Especially, seeing that as soon as Roderick’s released on the Internet, nihilistic readings of Nietzsche by educated laypersons ceased almost immediately.
I also wonder how any can be a nihilist and a student of Nietzsche especially with passages like this:
@B. R.
Your objective assessments and honest commentary is refreshing to read. Keep it up!
I am glad at least one person has taken the time to listen and read through this part of what she was conveying. Satanforce please take note…
Ah. One of the unfortunate features of this blog is an almost groupmind, where posts are either unconditionally agreed with, or vehemently disagreed with.
A non-sequitor. It does not address my points in any way. To elaborate further.
The majority of modern social science regarding black people is bitchified, and it needs to stop. The problems with this type of critique are as follows:
1) Africa vs. Europe
2) Done better by others
3) “Black people is magical”
1) What the hell is it with you people with this whole “Europe” thing? There is no such thing as some general-purpose, all-encompassing Europe. How can there be – when there are Slavic, Gallic, Anglo-American, Scots, Teutonic, Russian, Nordic, Andalusian etc. variants of culture and civilization, some which are diametrically opposed to each other (ex. Continental and Analytic philosophical split). The only types of Europeans that call Europe “Europe” are those crazy race realists. Not to mention this African crap. I’ve been to three African countries (Ghana, South Africa, Nigeria) and those countries a damn near diametrically opposed. Just ponder this:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/black-father-white-mother/#comment-64091
What this whole “African centred” crap is just a buch of bourgouise blacks pushing their own homogenous view of Africa, to achieve their own political and financial ends. It is a false view of Africa, that is an attempt to oppose a version of Europe viewed through a funhouse mirror.
2) Heard the same thing better from Habermas, Kuhn (objectivity), Nietzsche, Spengler, Popper (Plato’s Republic), Husserl and Heidegger (learning through feeling) etc. And without a bunch of Asili crap, or whatever.
3) There is dangerous message underlying this message – that reason and intuition should be replaced with emotionalism. That’s worse than lame. It’s gay. And its why Black people, and in effect Western civilization has ground to halt, and is now collapsing in on itself. We should seek to gain mastery and power over ourselves and nature, so that we can take our rightful place in the world, instead of begging for table scraps and reparations.
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@wilson
A good Adam Curtis feature would be “Pandora’s Box”. It is a very good critique of technocratic rationalism, and was made before he started using his little tricks. Especially Episode 5 – Black Power (you can even just jump ahead to that one)
http://archive.org/details/AdamCurtis_PandorasBox
And for those of us (like me) who are too distracted to read the whole book “Amusing Ourselves to Death” (the picture link I posted was just the introduction) , the entire audiobook is available here for free to listen to:
http://archive.org/details/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
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Satanforce, I just want to say, I am really slow at getting to everyone’s links, my computor is not good and I do things at a snail’s pace..
I can understamd your point that you can find plenty of in depth analysis and inspection of the flaws and accomplishments of the Western thinking and conquests, in literature and documentries coming right out of the West
But, Dr Ani is covering aspects that thinkers from the West dont cover. I like how you put instinct with reason, because instinct and intuition are major factors in human behaviour and I get that Dr Ani is talking about those elements in reguards to an African way of feeling life. Im not sure if it is “emotionilism”, there may be some stereotyping of European mentality as far as conquest compared to other civilisations. I tried to ask if that was something I didnt understand by refering to Gengis Kahn and the Aztec conquests and large human sacrifices of their victoms of conquests,and the Arab conquests along with many other civilisations that used violence to conquer outside of Europe…I confess I am not firm in my answer about it , that is why I put those thoughts out there. But, the main reason I mentioned that was to say that I thought Abagond was correct in mentioning the universality of what Thucydides was saying.
So, Satan, forgive me that I havent had a chance examine all your links yet. By being very happy with what Kwamla and others here have brought in about Dr Ani, doesnt mean I disagree with all you are saying .You have made some very compelling points as always
But, Im really impressed with some things Dr Ani said, I connected very much with some aspects , and have been poorly trying to say them myself, and, I think it would be a great thread by Abagond
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@ B.R.
Abagond is probably the best person to address these points but I don’t mind commenting on them in the interim…This universalityaspect of human nature always seems to come up in discussions like these about violence and conquest throughout the ages of man and mankind. Basically its used in this way to show that violence, greed, brutality, hostility,etc.etc…basic self interest, etc.. are all natural intrinsic qualities of men. Which is later subsumed into women as well!
Lets say (for arguments sake) that all these qualities are present in both men and women. Is it the case that they will always surface given the right or appropriate circumstances? Abagond, Randy, Satanforce, to name a few from reading this post, I believe would argue YES!
I would argue NO! Much of the evidence for why people often make the YES claim is based on an analysis of how we’ve come to perceive Western society today and projecting it onto the rest of the world. Including recorded past histories throughout the ages. I personally believe this type of reasoning is flawed as it is far too biased towards what we’ve been indoctrinated to believe are the true universal values of a modern or civilized society – Western Society! Forgetting of course this has only been around for the last few hundred years!
What Dr Marimba Ani’s work – YURUGU – An African-Centered Critique of European Cultural Thought and Behavior does (and extremely well in my opinion) is to DE-construct and challenge this universally configured and imposed value system and present it, as it should be, as something culturally specific to a Europe/America/Westernized world which functions in the interests of its own dominance. That something being the nature of the Asili as she refers to it.
Heres a section, from the book, I think you may find of interest. In it she quotes Carlton Molette from an article in “Afro-American Ritual Drama” about “…observations concerning the rationalistic conception of the human inherited from Plato and Christian theology:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AIl1R14aKkoC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=african+american+ritual+drama+carlton+molette&source=bl&ots=Xx08zT2dx1&sig=fmYbyOR1s_2axJARTYa9bl6XIGg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8CWtT8mMMsmU0QW_6422CQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=african%20american%20ritual%20drama%20carlton%20molette&f=false
I have to ask if the term or concept of: spiritually motivated behavior would be found in any of Thucydides observations about human nature?
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Kwamla, thank you for that answer
I have no problem with the understanding of this :
“What Dr Marimba Ani’s work – YURUGU – An African-Centered Critique of European Cultural Thought and Behavior does (and extremely well in my opinion) is to DE-construct and challenge this universally configured and imposed value system and present it, as it should be, as something culturally specific to a Europe/America/Westernized world which functions in the interests of its own dominance. That something being the nature of the Asili as she refers to it.”
And, I respect what you are saying about history being seen through western eyes
But, what is the context for Genghis Kahn ? Arab conquests, the Aztecs conquests and human sacrifices ? Im not saying nescasarily that all civilizations behave the same way, but, some bells go off at the implication that only the Western world ( and great point Satanforce that Europe is a bunch of tribes) is the only civilisation to indulge in violent conquest (totaly agreeing that there is some kind of philosophy in Western culture that cultivates what you are talking abvout) . Of course, there is a case to make that it is one of the most brutal in the history of mankind , no doubt.
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@ B.R.
This is a question requiring a more deeper explanation than can be found in a conclusion that all men are basically the same in all countries in all ages. Even if you consider this from the point of view for women.
– Are women characteristically involved in conquests and human sacrifices? NO!
– Are women characteristically involved in conquests and human sacrifices? in most other countries in the world. NO!
– Have women characteristically been involved in conquests and human sacrifices throughout the ages? NO!
– Are women a separate species of human being from men? NO!
It should be obvious to you if this can not be said to apply to women’s human nature then why should it apply universally only to men’s nature?
This is why I say a more deeper explanation is required.
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Yes, I respect what you are saying ,Kwamla, about women.
I also heard about an Indian civilisation in South America that had 1000 years of peaceful existance.
I think I can agree with you that it just isnt the same in all civilisations
I think Im just saying that there are many many civilisations besides the Western civilisation that used conquering and violence.
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@ Satanforce
You obviously have some sort of devotional form of interest in Nietzsche. Which, unfortunately for you, I don’t share. Though I did view the links on Prof. Roderick;s videos you posted. So forgive me for not wanting to indulge you in a debate on whether his philosophies should be considered Nihilistic or not. I’m not particularity bothered.
What is more interesting to me is your overly prejudicial pre-occupation with critiquing Afro-Centrist Thought. Dude…You really do seem to have issues here!
Incidentally. For you to declare my contrasting point about dismissing a critique of white supremacy by an African-Centered writer because in your words: … these same critiques were better done by, you guessed it, other Europeans…. ; as a non-sequitor or having no relevance to you is an opinion not shared by me. You’ve already declared your bias and prejudice against all things you consider Afro-Centric so it should be no surprise to anyone reading here you are unable to see your own illogical blindness even when its displayed right in front of you!
1) Africa vs. Europe
You call this “crap”. And maybe it is in some sense because both are imposed definitions of geographical regions of the world. Yet I have to ask you WHO is responsible for this “Crap”? Who was it who delineated on a map and gave definition to the Western world (and even those outside) these defined geographical locations? And more importantly of what period of empire building and conquest did they arise from? Hint: Africans nor even African-Americans were responsible for this.
So yes these are inherited, self-used and self-imposed terms which nevertheless serve a purpose in describing distinct cultural values, modes of thought and behavior. So even you Satanforce do not have choice in whether you wish to recognize or acknowledge these terms. They exist whether you like them or not. The choice then becomes how do you make use of them. I see nothing in the “crap” you’ve written about which assists in either usage or non-usage of the terms.
2) Done better by others
By others you mean white Europeans, white Americans of course…Yes?
So I guess what you’re basically saying here is no other non-European (and I don’t just mean African) writers, critics, philosophers, Academics etc…have anything to offer here. Or none that you’d be interested to read about. Just as well. I won’t bother to mention any then! Dude thats sad!
3) “Black people is magical”
I have to ask:
“..There is dangerous message underlying this message – that reason and intuition should be replaced with emotionalism….”
Where do you get this from? Certainly I don’t advocate it or am not familiar with anyone in particular who does? I can only conclude it must be one of your unresolved “emotional feelings” about Afro-Centric discourse you’re projecting into this discussion.
“…And its why Black people, and in effect Western civilization has ground to halt, and is now collapsing in on itself. We should seek to gain mastery and power over ourselves and nature, so that we can take our rightful place in the world, instead of begging for table scraps and reparations…”
Its obvious to me now where this slow and constant digestation of epistemologies and philosophies solely by European and Western counter[parts has led you…To an abyss!!!
Perhaps there may still be time for you to step back. Consider this: Western civilization is, as you correctly observe, grinding to a halt but the reason you gave is actually the opposite. Its because of this Asili: “…to seek to gain mastery and power over ourselves and nature…” that has precipitated this decline. The irony is the European/American writers, activists, academics etc…you’re obviously not reading would ALL tell you this!!!
Go check them out before its too late…
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Ah. Weasel words. Not surprised at all! While you may dismiss my admiration of Nietzsche as juvenile hero worship, I think that his concept of ressentiment perfectly sums up the Afrocentric mindset. Let me elaborate.
You state that the notions of Europe and Africa are ones that must be accepted due to them being imposed on us. For the purposes of International Travel, Internet TLDs and high school textbooks, perhaps. But for serious academic study, that’s a poor excuse. When studying the political, philosophical and historical origins of a particular topic, the author is perfectly free to organize the world any which way she see fit, as long as its justified
Jared Diamond (anthropology) – World is four areas Meso-America, Eurasia, Sub-Saharan Africa and Oceania
Joel Garreau (culture) – The Nine Nations of North America – this states that North America is divided into nine economic and cultural zones, with their own capitals
Africa: A Very Short Introduction Africa is not just continental, but includes the whites that live there, the Black diaspora and the outlying islands.
Where Ani (and all Afrocentrists) fails is in justifying her use of “Africa”. She seems to be using the second-gen version of Afrocentric geography, where one selects , buffet style, what parts of Africa one likes without regard to context. Thus, instead of making an actual case based on culture, or anthropology, she reduces it to a question of black and white, and misses out on all the Dead White Men that came before her. Especially those who are philosophically in line with her (poorly articulated) views.
Because Afrocentrists seek out ideas based on how “African” they are, rather than on any inherent value, they end up falling into the same traps as other multi-culturalists whose various errors include:
– Dr. Ben stating that Socartes stole books from a library that was built after he died
–The (feminist) belief that women have not been aggressors in war and conquest
– The Africa Good, Europe Bad philosophy which leaves out very good Euroean ideas that can be applied to various African cultures
You can see the difference in quality and maturity between Afrocentrist thinkers and Africanist thinkers – people like Mbiti, Cooper (gatekeeper state), Tutu and Nkrumah have far better developed ideas on the history, culture and economics of black people and the Black Diaspora.
And there’s the rub. The closing of the Afrocentrist mind to all other ideas outside of a few narrowly selected people is symptomatic of the main problem affecting the West. The return to tribalism, feudalism and nerdism is a rejection of the Enlightenment ideas of individualism and rationalism. Even in that audio, Ani herself states that feeling should take precedence over feeling – instead of realizing that the two are inextricably linked.
Perhaps a time will come when we will look back at this phase in our history for what it is – a sojourn into mysticism, pseudo-history and irrationality. But until then, all we can do is seek mastery (as opposed to conquest) over ourselves and nature.
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Satanforce, as always, compelling words from you
I think with the new scientific studies about the intuitive brain being in control before the logical brain can act, gives a huge vote of confidence for some of the things that Dr Ani is trying to convey about “feeling”.
I think its very good to explore some of the concepts Ani is talking about. Where I understand what you are saying about sometimes she is making it too much black against white, and, I understand the notion “African way of thinking” is too general and Africa is too huge and diverse to just lump it into one way of thinking, it would take up huge amounts of print and space breaking down exact locations of definitive examples. It is general , yet, I grasp where she is coming from , without losing my understanding that Africa is huge and diverse.
“The Africa Good, Europe Bad philosophy which leaves out very good Euroean ideas that can be applied to various African cultures”
Yes, I want to be a true modern man, I want to use yoga and meditation from the East, Western ideas and inventions, native American ideas of medicinal plants and foods they brought to the table, Chinese self message ideas, and, I want to plug into concepts that came out of sub Sahara Africa that are about turning off the thinking brain and plugging into intuition and feeling , and not only because science is now verifying that this is a reality, but, because the benifits are enormous
And, I just dont hear western thinkers addressing some of the points that Dr Ani is addressing. She brings valid concepts and information to the table . It doesnt mean everything she sais is written in stone, but, she makes incredible points that are worth examining and they do stand up against western thinking.
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Abagond
I messed up my hyperlink again (IDEs have broken me badly). Please fix.
@B.R.
Well I’ll be damned, a display of nuance on this blog’s comment section.
As a reward, here’s some Dogon for you:
The Invisibles by Grant Morrison
http://knightsofimhoteplibrary.blogspot.com/search/label/Dogon
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I recall reading in one of those pop-neuroscience books about a man who had the part of his brain responsible for emotion damaged. One would think that he would become some sort of Spock-like hyper-rationalist. The man couldn’t even decide to get out of bed or make similar decisions. But what guys like Camus and Sartre showed before modern neuroscience is that reason and emotion cannot be separated – you are reasoning because you have a feeling about a thing, and you have feeling about something because you first reasoned about it!
I am not saying that you shouldn’t do that yoga, kama sutra, tantric sex-shooting-your-sperm-back-into-your-balls-stuff. But, as a young black man, I must dedicate all my efforts to obtaining money, power and bitches. Anything less, would render me a sell-out.
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Wow, Satanforce, that is an incredible link, and , I will be checking it out..thanks.
You know, you and Kwamla shouldnt be so hard on each other, you all are probably closer in concepts than apart
Also, you are the master of satire, parady and provocation, I never quite know exactly where you are coming from and have be careful to read deeper into your meaning
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Sorry guys, been busy last couple of days… Currently trying to catch up.
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There is a distinct lack of understanding or comprehension by Satonforce of the work Yurugu – Dr Marimba Ani..It shows in most of his responses here. i find it difficult to take seriously responses given based solely on prejudicial feelings rather than the actual substantive material of the author concerned.
Much of the Afrocentric based prejudices expressed may or may not have validity expressed in a discussion about Afrocentrism. And to try to reduce or derail this discussion into this direction seems really childish to me. It really should be in another Abagond post. (Now there’s a suggestion!)
I do feel though that the concepts and ideas expressed by Yurugu – Dr Marimba Ani. provide a challenging perspective to this post. In particular these two short video clips (see below) cover and expand on many of the questions raised here. Which is where I would direct Satanforce if he really is interested in honest critique instead of projected biased ramblings about the failings of Africanist or Afrocentric thinkers.
Marimba Ani – European Quest for World Dominance 9mins
Marimba Ani “The Afrikan World View” 9mins
.
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Kwamla, great youtubes, there are many things about Dr Ani that I can totaly get and understand and agree with.
There are some things that I have questions about, some I cant quite put into words yet.
Even though I heard her answer about the “conquest” concept and what is the differance from the “Europe” concept and others who might be conquerers also. But I didnt totaly get it. Because, take for example, the Zulu nation. They were conquerers also. They were a warrior culture.I heard her answer but I dont see the differance. Because the Zulus did have the warrior mentality and were conquerers. I do understand what she is saying about how it is ingrained in some way into the “European ” concepts, but, what is the concepts of Zulu warriors? How did the Zulu natiion aproach conquest? Is it really that much differant?
I can see how the European concepts lead to treating people like objects, a great point she is making
I also think “spiritualality” is relative. The Aztecs sacrificed victoms thinking they were doing it for their gods.But, I think there is something deeper she is talking about , like an “African ” conception of living and feeling. I know this and have unbeleivably deep respect for that. For me, its much deeper than any organised religion , whether in Africa or anywhere, its much more than that.This force was harnessed into religious concepts in Africa, but they are independant of official religions in Africa also…its much more, and I think she is elaborating on some of that and i get it and love many things she is saying.
Yet, a part of me also thinks there is much one can use from Western thinking also , I just think we have been inundated with it , saturatied with it and its time to listen to people like her also.
i still say , Kwamla, you and Satanforce have a lot of common ground….anyway, its very stimulating conversation…
You have consistanly presented fantastic ideas
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@ SW6
You were the same person who asked me to suggest a history book reference. If you go back and read from your where your own comment prompted this discussion you should be able to answer your own question. You might also address your own comments on why you thought Thucydides was a good post.
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While it is always a pleasure for me to display my superior intellect with which to intellectually bitchslap my opponents with, I am afraid we’ll have just to agree to disagree. On to the main feature:
European Quest for World Dominance
1:08 – One must wonder if she has ever heard of the various European martyrs, St Aquinas, William Blake or Soren Kierkegaard. Or perhaps her definition of spiritualiy is based on some odd conception of Black people
1:20 – Perhaps the Europeans who were amazed by the Dogon people in Mali didn’t get the memo that African spirituality is backward. Or any of those people called “anthropologists”
2:45 – That European civilization (based upon Greco-Roman and Christian concepts) is young is not relevant. That they are a literary culture that was able to both save and translate works like Thucydides is.
3:31 – Europe successful? They got lucky in 1492, and only really got off the ground with the Peace of Westphalia (1648), and shot forward in 1776. Compared to the most advanced civilization on Earth (China), “Europe” is just a flash in the pan. This is proving more true by the day, as China recovers from a dark age that started during the Opium Wars and ended with the death of Mao.
5:15 – Not surprisingly , she chooses KiSwahili, basically African Arabic. The afrocentric fascination with Swahili has always fascinated me, considering that most diasporic blacks come from a part of the continent that would have had very little contact with Swahili speakers. Why she could not have had used an indigenous language such as Yoruba or Igbo is beyond me.
5:30 – As I had stated earlier, Ani’s does not justify her use of Europe
as a catch-all. Here we see her ressentiment – “the Europeans do it, so should we!!” Not whether its right or wrong, or by any anthropological standard. That’s just pathetic. The area usually thought of as Imperialist (Berlin Agreement) is the size of the DR-Congo. Most of the citizens received little of the material benefit, it instead going to oligarchs and monarchs.
7:25 – I am reminded of the Greek myth of origin, that stated that people were originally 4 armed , 4 legged creatures, 2-headed, til Zeus split them a thunderbolt. This created three sexes, which would be reunited through homo/hetero sex. The Dogon, on the other hand, believe that people are born neuter, and that women are feminized through Type 2 Female Genital Mutilation. Any wonder why they pick and choose myths>
8:20 – I guess she never “Guns Germs and Steel…….”
—————————————————————————————–
0:00-0:55 – Someone please tell Dr. Ani that Baruch Spinoza and the pantheists would like their philosophy back.
2:28 – If Plato’s Republic was the basis for hierarchy, why was it never established? And why was the main form of rule, from the Asanteman in Ghana , to the British in the U.K., the Divine Right of Kings?
3:27 – Why does she ignore Hume, (reason is the slave of the passions), Aristotle (morality uses the right emotion at the right time), and Spinoza?
5:27 – 8:58 – Category error – confuses objectivity with objectification. Also ahistorical, as it ignores the many major European philosophers that argue for the primacy of emotions
—————————————————————————————–
Typical afrocentric drivel. And seeing that the book is call YURUGU – An African-Centered Critique of European Cultural Thought and Behavior, we cam safely say that it falls squarely within the afrocentric genre of fantasy history.
Ideas are not defined by geography. During the British-Asante wars Enfield had no problem selling their guns to both sides of the conflict. Ethiopia was able defeat the Italians with assistance from their Russian allies, who thought that it was their duty to help Ethiopia because of their Christian Orthodox connection. But the central planning model adopted from the Soviet Union was partially responsible for the mass famines in the 80s.
The point of studying books like Thucydides is to able to develop the power to choose the best ideas. The afrocentrist does not seek this, or even seeks to be excellent, but desperately wishes to be in the big house instead of massa. That is why he always compares himself to Europeans, rather that trying to develop an independent ideology, or even trying to integrate the best of European ideas. He is a pathetic bitch-ni66a, and a loser.
The key is mastery, and mastering the Greeks will put us well on our way down that path.
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@B. R
“…the object is the thing that is left when you detach your self from the universe…” Dr Ani.Marimba
In the Majority peoples… (as Dr Marimbi Ani defines in her book – Yurugu)
“…The members of the indigenous core cultures of the world regarded collectively, excluding the European minority…”
…In these cultures this European conception of the “object” was never present. In fact all these cultures shared a similar African wold view concept of the self which identified a spiritual universe in which the self was an integral part – not detached. Therefore when projecting back into the past history of man made conflicts and conquests how should we view these? From whose cultural perspective should we look to make sense of these conflicts?
This is an important question to pose otherwise we keep repeatedly separating out non-European Majorities peoples cultural conflicts and analyzing them from an “apparent” universal European perspective of conquest and control.
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As the blog author has messed up my hyperlinks above, I will repost them. The links show the amazing effectiveness of women in combat and conquest.
http\s://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Women_in_warfare
http://www.cracked.com/article_17123_the-5-most-retarded-wars-ever-fought.html
I have also just obtained a copy of Yurugu, so I will be able post a book review soon on my blog (after I work out the kinks). But right now, I am about to read a book called “We Real Cool” by bell hooks. As the author is one of those evil black woman misandrist lesbo-feminist “man bad, woman good” angry black man hating types, I expect nothing good to come from this reading.
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Funny link, Satan, and, with your satiric wit in full force on this last post, it makes me just wonder what your real feelings about Ani might be…
Kwamla, thank you for explaining the concept to me. I still have to work on grasping that concept, but let me say first, Dr Ani has said so much stuff that I understand and relate to, that, if there are a couple of points I dont totaly get yet, that doesnt stop me at all from aprecieting where she is coming from.
Her breakdown of how Western thought process is compared to an “African” concept of living rings very true. She mentions music a lot, so, I feel very comfortable saying I totaly get that the European aproach, writing it all down, reading the charts, etc is vastly differant from a West African concept . And, the white man will try to make it seem like the African aproach is less valid, while at the same time on a popular leval, steal the African concepts and turn them into profits
I just havent totaly grasped the differances in terms of violent conquest. How is Gengis Kahn differant ? Again, I totaly acknowledge there is something I may have not understood yet, it hardly makes me think anything less of Ani’s work.
I just have come to my own conclusions about the human inhumanity to man and woman and how it relates to the animal kingdom we are surly just another part of in a big picture of species surviving.
To see the films of animal species and their survival habits, territorial battles, battles for females, and, surviving being hunted and killed, that above all other things, any one’s theories or books or what ever analysis etc, gives me the most real and satisfying answers as to why there is so much violence that goes on in the human species history
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I really do grasp what she is saying about the “Western thinking” is differant than “African concepts” about living and how to aproach life
And the white man , through his concepts, tries to dismiss , belittle, the concepts of other peoples in the world who are differant and uses that as an excuse to conquer and try to force submission on people that dont look like him
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@ B. R
I sense you do understand much about these concepts its reflected in your responses unlike poor Satanforce who I detect is still struggling but even he will eventually, though begrudgingly, be forced to “get them” too.
Lets take something you mentioned about the animal kingdom and music to further illustrate this conception of having some form of “spiritual awareness” – This is basically having and sharing a feeling of “connectedness”, that one and everything is connected on a meaningful level. There is no separation. Only an apparent separation which creates the illusion of dis-connectedness of all things. These two concepts of the dis-connected object – Separation; and Unity – connectedness or “oneness” are beautifully described in your statement here:
Her breakdown of how Western thought process is compared to an “African” concept of living rings very true. She mentions music a lot, so, I feel very comfortable saying I totaly get that the European aproach, writing it all down, reading the charts, etc is vastly differant from a West African concept . And, the white man will try to make it seem like the African aproach is less valid, while at the same time on a popular leval, steal the African concepts and turn them into profits
This is exactingly how the European cultural model, the seed – “the Asili” – takes root. It is embedded in Western Culture. But this model, this approach is totally cultural specific its not the way of the Majorities peoples cultures. Colonialism and Imperialism sought to wipe out, eradicate and suppress any alternative “Cultural Asilis which would challenge its dominance. This is no accident but is the very nature of how the European cultural model works. It sees itself as incomplete and seeks to fill that detachment from the reality of a connected universe by accumulating and exercising power and control over “others”, animals, nature, the environment. the known universe etc…
When you look at and watch nature films and see different animal species or plants battling for survival do you see this same cultural model at work?
Or do you see a vast array of multiple and diverse species of planets and animals living in a balanced (when “westernized man” is not involved) co-cooperatively shared, complex and rich environment?
But to what concepts do we look to and accept in viewing these interactions?
The apparently universal European Darwinian model of the survival of the fittest? Now whose cultural model does this closely parallel?
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@ SW6
I would say you probably understand more about Dr Ani’s “African World View concept” than you are willing to admit here. This can be seen from your exchange of comments with B. R on the Miles Davis thread:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/miles-davis/#comment-128851
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@ SW6
Theres nothing snide or didactic about my comments to you. I was simply pointing out links between your own connections. Whether you choose to see them is up to you. I can see them others may too. The fact that you can make connections in one area but not see how they might be linked to those in another is all about the perspective you’re choosing to adopt. – One of separation. Dis-connectedness, separates…
This is shown by your seeming inability to answer your own question to me. If you can’t do this by reflecting on the links and connections you yourself make. What other possible answer could I provide for you to consider?
I just came across this quote which I think is apt and appropriate for this discussion thread:
Maybe you can respond again by asking me why I think this is connected?
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Kwamla, thank you for continuing to clarify some of the things Im questioning. You have helped me to understand a little bit more. And I consider this important information. I see Western man , with his aproach to science and industry, inventing lots of things that are just wrecking the planet with its junk and polution.I think that is very much in tune with what you are implying.
Yet, there are some little things that I still have questions.
I think I see what you are saying about the Western aproach to nature, including the science things I mentioned above, and , many other cultures are so much more ingrained with nature.
But, along with great beauty and an eco system that has to be valued , I see great violence in nature. Great hiarcial conflicts, great struggles for the right for males to mate, including killing the young of females , to get them to be in heat again, huge ant colonies bringing some of the most devastating destruction where ever they are going, absolute battles to the death or retreat for territorial rites….all things I can see in human charactor…of course, humans have taken it to a new leval of destruction , that only dwarfs in the of natures own forces of whether, volcanoes, earthquakes , tidal waves etc…Again, I do understand that other civilisations are much more atuned to nature and not destroying it compared to the West, so , if that is the point, Im get it
And, as far as the violence conquest thing, where, the scientific mind and nature of the West, puts it at the head of the class as far as its kind of conquest , and, submision of the people it conquers.
But, please tell me how that differs from Gengis Kahn ? Or, the human sacrifice , sometimes thousands at a time, by the Aztecs as they conquerd their neighbors ( the Spanish never would have conquered the Aztecs without the help of the disgruntled victoms of the Aztecs)? Or the Arab conquests and the many other non western conquests and violence in the world ?
In the bigger picture of Dr Ani, I think these are small things , Im questioning, compared to the big points she is making. So , Im not really arguing her validity at all, she has great validity for me. Im in earnest about understanding her , and your knowledge helps a lot
SW6, I apreciete you referencing the subject of the thread by Abagond.So we can not get too far off track…I think a thread on Dr Ani , would be a great one
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Kwamla, now that I mentioned the eco system, I see what you mean about one thing. The eco system is entwined and dependant on everything in it and other civilisations respected this and western man hasnt
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My opinion is:
“Do you have a concern that reading Thucydides will make a person have a eurocentric view of human nature?”
********************
If I read Thucydides, (which I haven’t) and take the narrative in there about human nature or nature in general as a given and therefore apply it universally, then it is possible I could be making an error and not even know it. If I read it and contrasted the narrative I got from it with a different narrative which also has a basis in reality, then I can see that “universality” isn’t one thing but a rich variety of diversity. Diversity is obviously good and bad at the same time. Good because it provides richness of experience bad because sometimes it is not apparent how harmony can be arrived at without imposing “one” mode of thinking/culture across the diversity which will have the effect of culling the diversity.
The problem with European culture is that it rejects diversity. Its cultural narratives are fed to us as the only possible viable narrative, be it about human nature or about the nature of nature itself. Anybody not in-sync with it is either seen as uncivilized or barbaric or whatever. But that is just the rhetoric, the truth is that it just wants power and control and uses a rhetorical ethic that encourages perpetual conflict i.e. imperialism and conquest
Satanforce said, european culture isn’t one thing, well in the book Ani deals with this: She says she is aware europe is a diverse place, but people in europe in unison talk about european culture, an under-current that unifies them all. In contrast Africa is a big place, lots of tribes, vast continent yet it is possible to talk about African culture. When africans say african culture, there is something about african-ness that they are identifying with that every other african is also a part of. Same as european culture. Ani breaks it down better than I did.
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@ B. R.
I don’t think for one moment I would attempt to say that Dr Ani’s book explains everything concerning the nature of Western civilization or war, violence and destruction by other non-European cultures.It doesn’t and you shouldn’t expect it to. All it can do is provide a framework for understanding, comparing and contrasting entirely different and distinct cultural perspectives on the world. Specifically- African and European. The questions you continually repeat:
“…But, please tell me how that differs from Gengis Kahn ? Or, the human sacrifice , sometimes thousands at a time, by the Aztecs as they conquerd their neighbors ( the Spanish never would have conquered the Aztecs without the help of the disgruntled victoms of the Aztecs)? Or the Arab conquests and the many other non western conquests and violence in the world ?…”
require a similar deeper analysis of these cultures and their Asili. So for example:- Just looking at the way China operates to the rest of the world and comparing this to say Europe or Africa should tell you there are distinct and different cultural perspectives at play. They are not the same and cannot simply be understood in terms of the European Asili: Conquest, Power and Assimilation of the “Other” under its own cultural dominance and control.
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@ Wilson
Thanks for your contribution. I think it assists and expands this discussion…
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An observation about the narrative from abagond:
I should mention I am not criticizing but just stating an observation I have made. Abagond has decoupled himself from the white lens, as in, has seen the lies white people say about the state of race nowadays. However in terms of what is possible, abagond is stuck in the “european” frame of mind. That is why I think he made this comment:
“Thucydides taught me that human nature is the same in all countries and all ages. ”
If he wasn’t caught in that frame of mind, he would have challenged that statement. Another piece of evidence is how abagond views africa when contrasting it with the narrative africa gets abroad. The pictures I see is africa moving towards civilization as painted by the west. I.E. High rise building, highways and other shows of wealth from capitalism etc. This is the contrast used to show that africa isn’t as described in the west, that it also has what the west has and is developing day by day.
The problem I have is, that is not africa, that is the west imposing itself on africa, that is africa taking into its Being that the only way to develop, the only options of what is possible is what is dictated by the west i.e. european culture. As africans we can not provide an alternative, we are locked into a european mindset, we measure ourselves through that mindset.
That is what Yurugu is about. Challenging us to really change our perspective. To change our very basic assumptions. No place is this more important than in Africa itself. Those there are firmly locked into the western narrative of themselves, there is a struggle within the continent. In my opinion that is why africa is such a zone of conflict or disequilibrium, because that conflict isn’t yet resolved. To me that shows that the “spirit” of africa is strong and doesn’t want to die easy, but ultimately it is the people of africa that will finally get to decide whether to reclaim who they are and take responsibility in defining their futures or to fully en-corporate the european worldview as the only possible worldview.
I should mention again that this is not a criticism on abagond as it applies to pretty much everyone. We have all been suckered into the “universal” image as set by european culture. It’s no easy task to undo this, it might not even be humanly possible as european culture is so very dominant and ruthless in its match for dominion over everything.
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Thank you Kwamla and Wilson….I agree Kwamla what you said about Dr Ani
Im not sure about China, they eliminated millions of people in their cultural revolution and millions died by them trying to aply “back to the feilds” communist concepts…that is too recently in the past to not ackowledge it
Yet two things about what I said, communism is a western concept, and,with that past them and their economic growth, they may demonstrate new directions….but, personaly, Im wondering what will happen with more growth and the workers they have working for the really low wages to sustain that growth, may become disgruntled ?
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By the way, Kwamla, I hope you dont feel I am arguing with you or making points over yours. Im discussing this with you and its important for me to have some things clarified.
You see, what Dr Ani is saying has huge relevance in my life. In my profesion, I am all the time trying to pursuade people to let go of their Western way of doing things, get out of the charts, make things more SIMPLE ( bingo , Abagond) and less arranged to arrive at a more Afro diasporic concept where we can “feel ” things more and get in touch with our intuition . I have been arguing some of those points before I ever saw Dr Ari, and seeing her just blows my mind and fortifies my position more.
I am just trying to tie in the loose ends of my perception, and, in a sence, its great we are discussing the things about Western conquest and violence versus the rest of the world, because at least we are on track with the thread discusion based on Abagonds statement about the universality of the human species and this violence , and, are differances of opinion on that.
I am very happy to gain the knowledge you and Abagond,and Wilson and Satanforce and Dahoman x and SW6 can put out on the table
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“our differances of opinion”
I have so much interest in this breakdown of “Western concepts” versus “African concepts”. There is so much that rings true about what Dr Ani and some of the points on here are saying.
What I want to say about this “universal violence of the human species” is, I can agree that there are civilisations that didnt pursue the conquest violence route, The Dogon were people who built their houses up high so they could protect themselves from invadors from outside so they could just throw rocks at them to keep them away.They were not a conquering violent civilisation. But, they had to defend themselves.
Here is what I want to find out about if Im not getting it totaly yet.
Is the concept here that , for sure, there is violence registered throughout human history, but, Western civilisation turned it into a methodical concept of conquest and submision that surpassed anything seen before?
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@ B. R.
Have a look at this documentary film I came across recently and see if reflects some of the themes about the modern Western civilization we’ve covered here, questions you’ve posed, and where we all are headed if it remains unchallenged…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GYUYzYdL1E4#!)
@ Wilson
An excellent appraisal of this discussion so far…
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Interesting documentary Kwamla. It’s 42 minutes long but one only needs to watch the first 3 minutes to get the gist of the problem – a wealth driven western culture based upon insatiable greed, by whatever means necessary, even unto the extinction/destruction of all life on Earth.
Whiteness (western civ) is like crack-cocaine, or any other destructive, deadly and addictive poison that’s always looking for another victim/sucker to fall prey to its seduction.
Can anyone explain why this type of culture (based on greed/power) is not demonic/evil?
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@ Matari
Thats actually a really great insight (further up the this thread you provided) when you follow the discussion here. And its probably more Science Fact than fiction. It will not survive and be permitted to roam this and other galaxies. Other more “aware” and spiritually advanced civilizations would not allow it. Such civilizations exist and the elites at the top of Western societies know this and have been told this in no uncertain terms. This is also the reason why to label this culture as “demonic or evil” is to miss an altogether bigger hidden picture. This is a greater reality we all will, at some point, have to eventually come to terms with.
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Kwamla
You’re probably aware of the religious/spiritual (and other) beliefs that more or less suggest that Earth is the only planet of countless planets that’s home to sentient beings of a fallen nature.
In other words, all of the other worlds that have *intelligent* life living on them behave and act intelligently/with wisdom. THIS world? LOL
This isn’t a hard theory to believe, given the overwhelming nonsense/stupidity we can witness by the second HERE — on virtually countless levels.
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I kind of like the points you guys are making more than I got out of this youtube….I certainly like Dr Ani’s youtube a lot more
For sure you can cherry pick things there that are valid, but, there is a local channal down here who love to show anti systemical things, many right from Britain and they have the Portuguese translations underneath, but, Ive seen a lot more detailed information of things this link only surfacly goes into , and, there is this ominous tone of it might be acceptable to use violence, even though they do talk about other forms. I dont think advocating some violent resistance is good . I couldnt follow these people anywhere, I could follow Dr Ani.
Having lived through the 60’s, we got this call to violent revolution, and, it ended patheticlay with the SDS and some black armed men being aprehended in Nyac New York after a botched bank robbery.
It turned way more people off than on and broke the back of the real movement.
In Brazil, the communist and student people that decided violent revolution was ok, got crushed also.If you dont have the majority of people in any given area behind a violent uprising, its going to be crushed to smithereens. And I dont like these peoples just ” any kind of violent protest is great “. For me, that kind of disjointed aproach wont get anywhere but chaos. You need huge amounts of people pointed in one direcetion to make a real differance.
For sure I would never fight along side some group like Farc, just because any violence is ok
And, Ive heard on here from you all and in these docus I see down here, much more detailed information about this “system and West concepts” , this guy doesnt shed light on anything new. And it just leaves me to ask, are we fighting to defeat the Western concepts, but, we are just going to allow China to come in and do the same thing? Or is this about all the exploiters? Because China is getting right in there and going heavily after the recourses also.
This dosent mean I disagree with what you are saying at all, Kwamla, I just think we can examine some things in more depth
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Actualy, you dont need a violent revolution at all, you just need a revolution
The music corporations have been brought to their knees because people found a way to get music for free…sure, its the wrong reasons, but, it shows, there are non violent ways to absolutly destroy the system with out firing a gun…that is what I want to be about.
If its this “whiteness” , “western concepts that have been conquering and making people submit and destroying our envirnment”, I am with that and totaly agree…but, what about conquering violence from other civilisationa? Where do they fit in ? 3/4ths of north west China has DNA from Gengis Kahn, that must have been the biggest rape fest ever…That is the question Im asking in relationship to how we describe the West as a violent conquering methodicle destroyers of civilisations….which I totaly agree with that, we have no problem with that…its where do the other violent conquering civilisations fit into all this ?
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@ Matari
“…Earth is the only planet of countless planets that’s home to sentient beings of a fallen nature…”
This is not a view I share or would endorse. (1) Because Earth is NOT the only planet and (2)Those sentient beings of a fallen nature are not what we would consider to be Earth Humans. (3) We could consider them “fallen” but they too are just playing their part (albeit,unconsciously) in a more grander evolutionary project in which they too will be able to ascend.Which is really the only true choice for all sentient beings.
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Kwamla…please bear with me
you know 95 percent of what Dr Ani is saying , I can totaly get behind
It just so happens the 5 percent Im not getting is relevant to this thread, in the sence that we are discussing Abagonds statement of the universality of man’s inhumanity to man ( woman also)
So my question, and, Im not debating this, Im looking for direction, is, if Western concepts is what led them to their methodic violent conquest and submision of people , and no doubt western man has put more death and destruction on this planet than anyone, in what context do we see Genghis Kahn,Aztec human sacrifices as part of their “spirituality” , Arab conquests , etc ?
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@B. R
I wouldn’t go that far myself! I’ve still yet to finish her book too!!! There are a series of further 16 or 17 (9min) videos though on youtube where she goes over the entire contents of her book which you could explore.
But I have already attempted to answer this question before here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/reading-thucydides/#comment-128897
I would say at this point I don’t have sufficient information about these cultural violent conquests to comment further than what I’ve already presented. As I said they require a deeper analysis outside of a monolithic European cultural reference framework.
Maybe as this is an obvious pressing question for you. YOU need to research it further and see where it takes you…?
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Ok Kwamla…good advice
I really apreciete this discusion with you, I have learned again from you, the first time being your referance to the “Dogon” ( thanks for your link also , Satan), and the discusion about Dr Ani ( of course my referance of the 95 percent I get behind was from that first youtube)
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@B. R.
“So my question, and, Im not debating this, Im looking for direction, is, if Western concepts is what led them to their methodic violent conquest and submision of people , and no doubt western man has put more death and destruction on this planet than anyone, in what context do we see Genghis Kahn,Aztec human sacrifices as part of their “spirituality” , Arab conquests , etc ?”
I should start by saying I am still reading Ani’s book so I don’t have the full picture of what she is saying. I have watched the youtube clips which have helped somewhat.
Possible places to find the answers you are looking for is by looking into the research of psychopathy.
You can watch that to get an idea of non-criminal psychopaths plus there are lots of books about them nowadays studying them from a corporate point of view: EG Snakes in Suits, and political point of view: EG Politcal Ponerology.
Thing to ask is what happens when psychopaths or psychopathic qualities take control of society, what kind of society will we have?
That’s just one element to look at.
Another thing I think is that, imperialism isn’t necessarily an exclusive “European” thing. Maybe other cultures at different points in history developed imperialistic tendencies due to various reasons or cultural narratives. I think europeans have perfected the art though, theres is a lean mean machine. Does this mean its ok since other people might have done it in the past? NO! Does it mean those other people were right in doing it in the past? NO!
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@ Kwamla & Matari,
In terms of “other” civilizations not from earth, I am not sure if they are all “good”. Obviously Space is a big place, you can take the point that we are the only living things in the universe or there are other intelligent life-forms, maybe they have made contact with us maybe not. I think it all comes down to the individual and what they are reading/viewing/life experiences etc.
In this situation my personal view is that it is best to have an open mind but not be gullible.
************
“It will not survive and be permitted to roam this and other galaxies. Other more “aware” and spiritually advanced civilizations would not allow it. ”
*************
It could easily be the other way round, that the imperialism we are seeing now is directed from a place that is not exactly here. I mean take abductions, people claiming experiments being done on them and stuff like military jets chasing ufo’s and maybe “other” sentient lifeforms might not be exactly benevolent. Maybe you have them across the spectrum, from benevolent to “Don’t care” to malevolent.
Lots of researchers dealing with this, a good one is called Richard Dolan, can search him up.
Here is a brief 6 minute clip on the summary of UFO phenomena to see exactly what kind of evidence is there…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y9epbBaAs6Y)
Lastly another thing to ask yourself:
If any of these stuff was really true, do you think the government/media will like come out and say “Hey guys, by the way, we are not alone, thought it was about time you guys knew this”? Really…. would they?
This is veering totally off-topic.
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Ani is a reasonable topic on this thread, particularly given what I said in the post, but UFOs, etc, are not.
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@ Wilson
Your right, as Abagond has made clear, your veering off topic. There is probably much I could offer on this topic. And in particular from an African perspective too. I am sure Abagond will get round to doing a post on this vast subject soon though. I already have an extensively researched post on my blog which your welcome to view if interested.
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Sorry for my last post. Totally off-topic.
I’ll check it out Kwamla.
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Wilson, your insights also have been very helpful to me in understanding this concept that Dr Ani is talking about
Again, Im basing my understanding of her on the youtubes I saw here
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By the way , Wilson, I know you brought in that longer youtube of Dr Ani that really started blowing my mind, after Kwamla brought up Dr Ani
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