The Betsy Ross flag (by 1777) is that US flag with 13 stars in a circle. It is seen as the flag under which the Thirteen Colonies won their independence from Britain and became the US. The flag is making headlines in 2019, just before US independence day (July 4th), thanks to Nike and Colin Kaepernick.
According to legend, George Washington asked Betsy Ross to sew the first US flag. Robert Morris and her in-law Colonel George Ross were there too – at 239 Arch Street in Philadelphia in June of 1776, a month before the Declaration of Independence was signed. She suggested the flag have five-pointed stars instead of the proposed six-pointed ones because they were easier to make with scissors.
According to documented history, we do not know who sewed the first US flag. Betsy Ross was one of at least 17 flag-makers in Philadelphia at the time. It could have been any one of them. There is no way to know for sure. We are not even sure if George Washington ever met Betsy Ross.
In Ross’s favour is that bit about changing the six-pointed star. The original design by Francis Hopkinson did in fact have six-pointed stars. His navy flag may have looked like this:
The first eyewitness account of a US flag with stars in a circle is from 1777.
As Betsy Ross’s flag: The idea that she sewed the first flag and put the stars in a circle comes from the US Centennial celebration in 1876 – a hundred years later! That in turn was based on a story William J. Canby, her grandson, told in 1870. He said he heard it from her in 1836 when he was 11.
As a symbol of freedom: The war of independence won freedom for White people, not for most Black or Native people. In 1776 all 13 states were slave states. Those enslaved Blacks who did in fact win their freedom had fought for Britain (!!!) and moved to Canada. The US was by and for White people.
Heritage not Hate: The flag is used by some on the far right as a symbol of White nationalism or revolution or both – for example, the Klan, the American Nazi party, the American Identity Movement, Patriot Front, and the Patriot movement (think Tim McVeigh).
SPLC: Keegan Hankes, researcher for the Southern Poverty Law Center:
“Historically, these symbols have been used by white supremacists, both to hearken back to a time when black people were enslaved, while also painting themselves as the inheritors of the ‘true’ American tradition.”
Nike: In 2019 Nike pulled a limited edition of its Nike Air Max 1 USA shoes with a Betsy Ross flag on them. That was right before they were to go on sale for the Fourth of July. Nike said Colin Kaepernick, its spokesman:
“reached out to company officials saying that he and others felt the Betsy Ross flag is an offensive symbol because of its connection to an era of slavery, the people said. Some users on social media responded to posts about the shoe with similar concerns.”
– Abagond, 2019.
See also:
- US White nationalism – a post which even has a picture of Betsy Ross and this flag!
- The Confederate flag
- The Star-Spangled Banner
- Colin Kaepernick
- George Washington
- Fourth of July
- The Book of Negroes
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@ Abagond
“Those Blacks who did in fact win their freedom had fought for Britain (!!!) and moved to Canada. The US was by and for White people.”
Shame on you! Please research your history!
The first death of the war was a free black man.(Crispus Attuck).
A black man may have been one of the first black individuals in the north east to own a slave!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Johnson_(colonist)
The first slaves were brought to North America in about 1619. Slavery lasted 246 years.
Some blacks own slaves until the end of the Civil War. Only a small percent of whites own slaves.
Many individuals owned one slave and the slave lived in the home with the family.
There is no doubt that by looking at slavery 154 years after the end of slavery plenty of information has been loss. Some blacks even believe that blacks bought their families to save them. I am sorry to tell you some did and some did not.
I have some document written prior to the Civil War; however because they are written by white people I do not share them! Most of the history of slavery was written after WW I during the depression.
I look forward to any books written by slaves during slavery or documented books written by ex-slave that were not published by the abolitionist.
Please study the statistic of white people that lived in this nation and the number that owned slaves. Condemn slavery all day long; however, do not attempt to falsify facts.
There is no doubt that nothing good can be said about slavery. It was terrible! So does homelessness today! I believe more people are living with minimal support today than any time in history.
Study nations or tribes in African and see how many of them owned slaves during the same time period. Why do you believe they thought it was OK to sell slaves?
The facts are all over the world slavery was practice during that period. Sailor were beat with the Cat-o’-nine-tails whip and keel hauled!
Inhumane treatment was common. People were left to starve! Life was insignificant!
Selecting the mistreatment of blacks, regardless of how terrible it was, while ignoring all other people is not going to be a solution to the future!
Until I see and article which produces the facts of the death, maiming and starvation of all the people of the world from the days of Jesus until today I will believe you are not attempting to present a factual history.
There is no doubt that the original rules only allowed “white property owners”! That did not make up a very large number of people. Many white people were on the outside!
If you want to discuss black problems study JIM CROW not slavery!
There have been affluent black people in the United States as far as the Civil War and some blacks owned many slaves.
Please concentrate on how we can educate blacks so they can be competitive!
They can be carpenters, roofers, electricians, plumbers and other skills that do not require higher education. We have many highly educated blacks, they are constantly responding on your site. Some of the black higher education schools were started to teach black manual skills but have now changed to academics. The big money for the average individual is in physical/manual work. Have you seen what it cost to put a roof on a standard house? I do not see blacks on the roofs. How many blacks are working in cement? How many electricians are there?
Telling blacks how bad their great great great great great great great grand parents were treated is not helping!
I do not know what the average rate of birth is for blacks in US but if it 25 years for the first new born we are talking about 6 or 7 generation ago since slavery ended. (If it is 20 it is 8 generation ago)
More schools for those who can perform “manual labor”! Why do we wait until the prison system get them?
Off subject: The majority of blacks live in the 5 or 6 south east states. Not one state has more than 35% black population. It is practically impossible for black to have significant representation in the state. Next, the large Metropolitan Areas. Within those area blacks concentrate into “black neighborhoods”. They formulate their views were they live and reading article written by individual who have an agenda.
Who is going to encourage the upgrading of the education system in those poor neighborhoods when people are being told that they do not have any hope?
Black people can look on the formation of this nation with pride. The blacks service personnel have been a major part since the 54th Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry, the buffalo soldiers, the unnamed service units that have been apart of protecting this nation. Actually since the Revolution War
Spend some time researching the history of our black service members so some pride can be built into our young people.
https://milspousefest.com/heres-5-black-military-units-changed-american-history/
“88 slaves enlisted (more likely forcibly enlisted) in four months. The regiment also had free African Americans join the ranks. They fought in the Battle of Rhode Island and spent the rest of the war fairly quietly. Notably, in 1781, the white commander, Colonel Green, was killed along with several black soldiers in a skirmish against British Loyalists. His body was mutilated by Loyalists for leading black soldiers against them.”
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@ Allen Shaw
I was speaking in general. In any case, I updated that line from:
to:
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@ Allen Shaw
This post is about a flag, not world history or career advice.
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@ Allen Shaw
Not a complete list, but a start:
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@ Allen Shaw
Recommended reading:
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I agree with Kaepernick about pulling those Nike’s with that offensive icon.
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No matter what, the US flag is a symbol of a white supremacist, militarized police state. But I don’t understand why Nike would care what a hated black athlete would think about their stupid marketing platform.
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“No matter what…”
Surely it’s more nuanced than that, for instance in 1865 during the first memorial day in S.C., former slaves marched to “We rally around the flag,” in honor of Union soldiers.
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I am glad that Colin Kaepernick et al. is making the American public more aware of the historical connections of then and NOW. It’s essential that White people get a very realistic version of how the Founders of the United States were not sharing the fruits of Independence with People of Color who were used to build their economy.Lord knows they don’t teach that in school. Kudos to Nike for the platform.
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“But I don’t understand why Nike would care what a hated black athlete would think about their stupid marketing platform.” – Otto Carnage
WHY? That’s an easy one. Nike used “a hated black athlete”, such as Colin Kaepernick because they both knew that this act would throw the collectively soft underbelly of white supremacists into a state of conniption/rage due to their inherent anti-blackness.
So in reality, it wasn’t a “stupid marketing platform” after all. In fact, I’d say it was brilliant. Here, the marketing mission is accomplished, unlike George Bush’s “Mission Accomplished” speech on the USS Abraham Lincoln in May of 2003.
By the way, Nike’s Betsy Ross sneakers are now selling on the black market for $2,500.00.
https://nypost.com/2019/07/02/nike-betsy-ross-sneakers-sell-for-2500-online/
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Reblogged this on Project ENGAGE.
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I remember some models of Asics and Mizunos had the Imperial Japanese flag that was featured during raping and massacres that occurred in Nanjing and Korea etc etc. Not sure what if any commotion that caused. What do you think Abagond?
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It is astonishing how many white American politicians are upset and condone the hate….. hilarious.
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“As a symbol of freedom: The war of independence won freedom for White people, not for most Black or Native people. In 1776 all 13 states were slave states. Those enslaved Blacks who did in fact win their freedom had fought for Britain (!!!) and moved to Canada. The US was by and for White people.”
The truth is as I stated only “white property owners” were considered of any value!
Your article was about more than the flag. I read your entire article!
“You” inserted race into the article!
You missed the point of my response, we should be concerned about NOW, not over 2 hundred years ago. Please read my entire comment!
How can we help young black people today?
You are better than your responses to me!
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@ Allen Shaw
The truth is “straight cis White Protestant male property owners”. But the point of that paragraph was about race and slavery and the founding of the US, not sexism, classism, and the kitchen sink.
This post is about the Betsy Ross flag. Race is a part of it, unfortunately. Roofing is not.
I did read your comment, but it was mostly deflection from the subject of this post. Larry Elder did the same thing on Fox News last night when this story came up. He said Kaepernick should be talking about absentee fathers instead of a flag.
Are there more serious issues than the Betsy Ross flag? Of course. But this particular post, for good or for ill, is about the Betsy Ross flag.
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I was today years old when I learned about the Betsy Ross flag and how white supremacy uses this as an icon of hate. So it goes in the same category as that disgusting Confederate flag and other icons of hate.
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Larry Elder and other reprehensible sellouts and Uncle Toms on Fox News, who are nothing more than minstrel shows for white supremacy really grind my gears. Instead of learning what this flag represents the oppression of enslaved black people he and other right wing jackals choose to be willfully ignorant and obtuse. I guess I have learned you cannot change how these people think this is just the hill these folks are going to die on.
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@ Abagond
“Are there more serious issues than the Betsy Ross flag? Of course. But this particular post, for good or for ill, is about the Betsy Ross flag.”
I have missed the point of the story about the flag. Just what disturbs you about the flag. No matter who made it, it was suppose to be the first flag of the current union, no matter who it was for.
We cannot control who uses what symbols, an inanimate item cannot be guilty.
The NAZI sign:The swastika or sauwastika (as a character, 卐 or 卍, respectively) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia. It is used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions.[1][2][3][
Do you really believe that someone set around thinking about who was in and who was out? Even in 1492 the rich controlled every thing!
You are correct the second group people, after the Vikings, that arrived in this continent were running away from the Church of England. Religion was the way. The Spanish brought Catholicism to the islands and Central and South America. Perhaps Jamestown was different; but I doubt it.
https://www.history.com/topics/colonial-america/pilgrims
We used to say “don’t cry over spilled milk”!
What can you do about this story or is this about reparation for all of the ills of the past. If so I will back out!
Please warm me if you are establishing support for reparation!
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@Abagond: Happy July 4th 🗽🇺🇸🎆🦅
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Frederick Douglass asks “What To The Slave Is The Fourth Of July?” It’s a great speech. ✊🏿
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@ Allen Shaw
“I have missed the point of the story about the flag. Just what disturbs you about the flag.”
It says this right in the post: “The flag is used by some on the far right as a symbol of White nationalism”
Also, you keep acting as if Abagond “inserted race into the article [about the flag]” when actually he is reporting on a controversy over the flag that was already about race.
“We cannot control who uses what symbols, an inanimate item cannot be guilty.”
Interesting that you then bring up the swastika, because that symbol has been banned in Germany and other nations. So, yes, it is possible to control the use of a symbol.
Even in the U.S. where the swastika isn’t banned, the negative public feeling towards the symbol makes it difficult for Asian Americans to widely display it in public. I have seen a swastika a few times on statues of Buddha, but after WW2 it has been very rare for temples in the U.S. to use the symbol on the exterior building.
http://www.seattleglobalist.com/2016/05/09/swastika-buddhism-reclaim-tokyo-olympics-seattle-buddhist-temple/47643
“the second group people, after the Vikings, that arrived in this continent”
The second group of white people. There had already been wave after wave after wave of groups of non-white people arriving in this continent.
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@Solitaire: In my sincere opinion reading and having reading comprehension skills are so key. I will be the first to admit my discussion and debate skills are lacking, but I too thought the thread was about “The Betsy Ross flag.” Not about how to lead the black youth in the future. I hate deflection and going off topic.
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@ Mary Burrell
Happy Fourth of July!
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@ Allen Shaw
It is not about spilt milk. White supremacists are using this flag NOW to push a White nationalist vision of the US, a vision that has taken over one of the two main parties. I do not believe in nor want to live in a US like that.
Back in 2016 I joked about being in a concentration camp. But now that is way more likely than ever before. “First they came for …”
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@ Abagond: This current time reminds me of that poem by Martin Niemoller. “First they came for…..Insert the migrants in that blank space. “And i didn’t speak out because i wasn’t a migrant. If Trump gets another four years this could be all of us poor marginalized people that these goon squads could be coming for. Scary as it is to think about those concentration camps are for people that are of despised groups. Black and Brown people, LGBTQ etc.
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@abagond
“White supremacists are using this flag NOW to push a White nationalist vision of the US, a vision that has taken over one of the two main parties.”
It is not the flag it is the people! The flag is an inanimate object. Today’s use has nothing to do with yesterday!
Discuss the problems of the people today, because no matter what flag they fly it will never be the same as the flag that the early citizens flew!
I see this conversation as comforting the white supremacist who are saying that blacks are not part of this nation. You are actually implying the same thing.
Try this”
“Anti American (white supremacist) people are using an American historical symbol as a hate symbol for their anti “black, Jew and immigration” program!
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@ Allen Shaw
I did not imply it. I said it straight-out:
I said that not to comfort or discomfort anyone but because it is just the plain truth. And because it helps to make sense of the reaction to that flag by both Colin Kaepernick and White nationalists.
I was taught the Martin Luther King/Statue of Liberty model of the US in the 1970s, what was probably a Black/Jewish/NYC model. AOC seems to have been taught the very same model in the 2000s. But that WAS NOT the model in the 1770s in Betsy Ross’s time. It was not even the model in the 1880s when they put up the Statue of Liberty itself. And it seems like maybe it was not even the model in the 1950s when Trump completed his education at age ten.
As late as 1913 Webster’s dictionary was still defining “Americans” as “descendants of Europeans” in the US!!!! Think on that.
Thomas Jefferson wrote “all men are created equal” – and yet owned hundreds of BLACK slaves. That is the basic contradiction that lies at the heart of the country. Black people take his words to heart, White people not so much.
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@ Mary
Those camps need to be shut down. If Trump can get away with breaking the law and throw Central Americans in there, then later on he can throw others he deem undesirable in there too. What is to stop him? Who is stopping him? Who will stop him? This stuff goes way beyond kidnapping and child abuse, which is bad enough.
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Being created equal does not make you live equal. At no time in this world will you live among all black folks and be equal to all black folks.
Colin is correct!!!! We fight the battle of today! You have chosen to make your stand on the past. I ask what your purpose was, you did not respond.
Keep spinning your wheels talking about bull of the past. Get young people upset “so they can do what”?
I have never given Betsy any importance more than where I buy my clothes. You have thrust her to some height that is unbelievable.
Manifest Destiny
read about it. Most certainly the Northern European came to this nation and declared it belong to the King of England and the Spanish came and declares Spain owned Central and South America (basically) Other nations (France) declare they owned a portion of North America.
That is the way things were done in those times.
History of exclusion of different people in the United States
What do you think you are going to do about it today?
European diseases killed off the majority of the people living in these continents and what disease did not kill the European did a good job doing!
What are you going to do about it!
At first Europeans and blacks were brought to this nation as indentured servants. Later, blacks were made slaves!
What are you going to do about it!
Are you going to tell all of the current living blacks that they have some special rights. If so get on board with those looking for Reparation and come up with a plan that you can convince the government to accept.
I do not know what the Betsy Ross conversation is. I do understand what reparation is. I do not know who is to pay for activities that ceased to exist 164 years go in the south and about 1785 in the north.
Study J-I-M C-R-O-W? Over and over and over until you understand where the problem was the most grievous!
Politically, stop attacking “our friends” because of their past, that you do not actually undertand. Reading about stuff is not the same as living through the activities. Talking about what someone living today would do if they lived yesterday is just plain foolish (that is as mild as I can say it)
Once again, the white nationalist are attempting to do the same thing today that they attempted in 1914 (Birth of A Nation). Our friends would not stand for it and we moved on!
World War II started out with blacks being segregated and mistreated. Can you find any history of the black service units which are equal to white units. By 1949 integration of the military forces began and southern governors were told they had to change. I was their!!!!! I do not have to read about something written by someone who did not experience it!
I was in Montgomery at Maxwell AFB integrating the professional school administration when Gov Wallace was removed from the school house door.
Our friends once again did that!
I was in Louisiana in 1954 integrating an all white military base and having all of the authority that I was required to have.
Our friends did that.
I was in San Antonio, Texas 1949, integrating Kelly AFB.
All of my experience included whites who openly worked against the blacks; however, our friends were always their! I not only worked for those who were prejudice, I eventual supervised them!
Our friends did that!
Select the enemy, do not attack your friends!
Our Friends = white people who have worked to give blacks their equal rights. They have given up there future to help! They have lost promotions and failed to reach their desired goals because they spoke out against racial injustice.
It is not helpful to refer to all white people as thought they are all the same. We “are born equal”; however, the moment of birth begins the change!
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My last remark was to Abagond’s response to me!
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@ Abagond
“when Trump completed his education at age ten”
LMAO, but you may be giving Trump too much credit, considering he said in his speech today that the Revolutionary Army seized control of the airports and the airways.
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Abagond already cross referenced
yet AS still repeatedly says things like
Why is that? It is like he is watching a completely different movie from everyone else.
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@ Allen Shaw
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@ abagond. Silly me!
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@ Allen Shaw
The best way to understand the present is to understand the past. If that gets people upset, well then maybe they should be.
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@ abagond
Very true; however, one must remember all of the past, not selective thinking which eliminates anything that opposes ones views.
It is called narrow minded thinking!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_states_and_free_states
Click to access TAS03_5_142_PS.pdf
At that time the south had the vote!
How many other flags will we have to disrespect until we have 49 or 50 states
How many states joined the union before James (Jim) Crow laws stopped (has it stopped?)? (1965)
https://www.usflagstore.com/american_flag_history_1776_to_present_s/2205.htm
“The hexagram, like the pentagram, was and is used in practices of the occult and ceremonial magic and is attributed to the 7 “old” planets outlined in astrology. The six-pointed star is commonly used both as a talisman and for conjuring spirits and spiritual forces in diverse forms of occult magic.
The other famous five-pointed star is the Pentagram. … (In this form, it’s usually called a Pentacle.) It represents five elements: earth, air, water, fire, and spirit. Freemasons also use the pentagram symbol.Mar 27, 2017″
Much ado about nothing!
https://www.crf-usa.org/black-history-month/the-constitution-and-slavery
“Following this compromise, another controversy erupted: What should be done about the slave trade, the importing of new slaves into the United States? Ten states had already outlawed it. Many delegates heatedly denounced it. But the three states that allowed it — Georgia and the two Carolinas — threatened to leave the convention if the trade were banned. A special committee worked out another compromise: Congress would have the power to ban the slave trade, but not until 1800. The convention voted to extend the date to 1808.”
Difficult decisions were made!
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When people of the present “misuse” symbols of the past, they change what the symbol represents. Thus, what it means in the past has little merit in the present.
If this flag was not supposed to be used as a symbol of hatred for blacks, jews, and immigrants, why has no one put forth any consequences for said misuse? Why hasn’t the symbol been protected from said misuse?
If the flag is allowed to be a symbol of hatred, then it is approved of being a symbol of hatred.
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Another thought Nike knows lots of black folks are sneaker heads so yeah they are going to pull those shoes.
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@ Allen Shaw
Do you think Nike was wrong to pull those shoes off the market? Was that disrespectful to the Betsy Ross flag?
How do you feel about the U.S. flag design being used on apparel like sneakers and swimsuits? Isn’t that against the flag code? Is it a sign of patriotism, or is it disrespectful misuse of the flag?
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@ abagond A little history about those “white” folks!
https://www.thoughtco.com/impact-of-huns-on-europe-195796
I know you know, could you explain the background of Europe to all of us?
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@ Solitaire
The people that bought the shoes will make a bundle!
If abagond allows my post to be published you will see that the “founding fathers” attempted to stop slavery but failed. They did get the end of the transportation of slavery in the agreement by 1808.
It is difficult to find out just when, but 10 of the states stopped slavery shortly after the forming of the current government.
A year after the first flag (Hated) another flag was officially declared the flag of the US government
I am a lone voice, I read and am not emotional. What I think is not important to the new black movement.
Move on!
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@ Heru Sankofa
You express a thought that there is some way that something can be made safe. That is idealism!
The flag could have been copy righted if such a thing could occur in 1776-1777.
The flag was used for one year and I am not positive it was official.
Nothing is sacred when some group of individuals choose to use it. The white Nationalist used the NAZI flag at Charlottesville I believe.
It is not the flag that is the problem, it is blaming a time in history, long since past, that many individuals distort what was happening!
I hope Abagond does a report on the Constitution Convention which was estsblished to form our current government. If he does not I suggest everyone read the Madison notes on the Constitution Convention.
I have no personal position on what should have happened in the past. My life has been one of correcting that which I could correct and moving forward!
I am no longer a part of any “moving and shaking”!
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208830744274478&set=picfp.1489932727&type=3&eid=ARDAuCuys7t2aNHJWdD-VCDoIxdNXwBpLAAHeBEN0PCqgqRhg_T4K1vT_jPb9QbL5e71vyofnGvPTIRw&xts%5B0%5D=31.%5B1489932727%2C%22intro_card%22%2C%7B%7D%5D
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oops, had some pix on pentagrams, hexagrams etc. but the link’s not good
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http://www.lakeharrietlodge.org/lhl277/MainMenu/Home/MasonicEducation/TheSymbolismofthePentagram/tabid/413/Default.aspx
supposedly a masonic lodge site
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https://www.dcmilitary.com/pentagram/
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Allen,
Difficult decisions were made and a compromise was needed to form the government of that period. I say it that way because Constitution before and after the Civil War had some fundamental differences.
Nonetheless, probably the most accurate statement on the consequence of slavery following the constitution is that it was challenged, though allowed to persist. Essentially, we stopped importation but allowed the domestic trade to flourish (securing slavery for at least 20 yrs). The road to the Civil War as pathed upon this decision (Antislavery vs abolition of slavery).
Regarding the states that “outlawed slavery,” again it is more accurate to say the northern states supported gradual emancipation (impacting slave children) save Vermont (1777) which was not recognized as an independent until 1790.
Considering that you advocate strongly for focusing on Jim Crow, do you believe reparations make sense in relation to systemic wrongs of this era?
BTW, you don’t have to be a lone voice (the Madison link was appreciated) and facts & feelings aren’t mutually exclusive.
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@pf though. I believe that help should be given to those who can benefit from the help. We need to care for anyone who is without the ability to care for themselve. When a plan is thought out it shoud never be called “Reparations”!
The majority of people in this nation were not here and would fight such tax.
I have lived in the south; but, did not suffer the same as the resident; therefore, I can not offer any judgment on the damage that was done.
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Shaw,
Ahh the old adage, sometimes it’s not what you say but how you say it.
That’s the bemusing thing about the people of our nation regarding racism, slavery and oppression. People recognize the injustices, claim something should be done, but few want to bear the inconveniences of doing (particularly financially). It seems calling it reparations elicits too much internal ansgst. Avoidance at it’s finest. I digress.
You don’t need to suffer with someone to offer an opinion on justice. In fact we are called to make judgements of the sort everyday as jurors. Moreover, you listed your “moving & shaking” days so it’s odd you would give such a response.
Especially since we are in the comment section, of a blog, having a discussion about something you’ve said you’ve directly experienced.
Incidentally, the H.R. 40 bill seeks to address said lack of knowledge in relation to chattel slavery. Highlighting our shared lack of experiential suffering, if only for posterity.
Anyway, until the next discussion.
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@pf though You can look at my responses for the past years. How could I have experienced slavery? Reparation is about slavery which ended in 1864.
I have been commenting that Jim Crow is the problem. When I said I was not into moving and shaking I did not mean i was not going to respond or I was going to stop participating.
I suppose you want some type of bill passed through congress; therefore, I want to remind you that you need the support of white members. Words matter. The word reparation may reach some; however, a large number white citizens are not going to support that term.
Looking for justice for problems that are in the far far past, while not being able to obtain justice today is folly.
Can we solve our current problems?
By the way what do you mean when you say “Reparation” except a payback.
How will you determine the correct payment and to whom. The term DOS and another ADOS is going to be so many people that people will be paying a tax from the money they will be receiving from the reparation payments.
Remember there is North, South and Central America so ADOS should be NADOS. When studying the movement of slaves perhaps some went to the Caribbean Islands and some came from those islands.
The percent of the total number of slaves that came to North America was very small. See the study on the transportation of slaves to the Americas and the Islands
Maybe you need to publish H.R 40 in its entirety so people know what you are talking about. Most bills die each year so you should explain how this bill remains on the books year after year.
H.R.3745 – Commission to Study Reparation Proposals for African Americans Act101st Congress (1989-1990)
When asking the citizens of this nation of 50 states the majority being referred to as Red States (about 30 have less then 10% black vote -(not researched)) to spend their money a person need to show how the expense will solve a problem. My understanding is H.R. 40 would establish a study group. What would that study group come up with?
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
Since the 40 acres and a mule story is more myth then fact and is based on a promise made by a Northern General to a group of blacks in one small part of the south and was later determined to be an unlawful action, in any study it will be discounted by any committee or study group.
I do not recall your name over the years, so I would suggest you go back and review my many positions. I do not suffer. I attempt to study and evaluate.
You are not the first to find objection with my comments.
Once again, I recommend we help those who are attempting to further themselves. That opportunities are made available to the various individuals, some who could end up as Presidents of major corporations and other who will become specialized in field such as roofer, carpenters and other skilled manual labor.(not much of that left) and all in between.
A passing thought. Some of the black universities started out as schools for children of white slave owners. The history of the south east states has some surprising stories.
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Allen,
You may receive many objections on here, but nothing in my last reply was objecting to your comments.
I was simply curious as to what your lack of equal/similar suffering, had to do with you offering an opinion? I pointed out as jurors, we are often asked to make that exact judgment. Furthermore you have lived experience with Jim Crow. I was only asking did reparations make sense to you in the context of Jim Crow, minus slavery.
Most of your comments after “By the way what do you mean when you say “Reparation” except a payback,” were begging the question. Thus responding to most of them would prove futile.
You bring up receivers of any money being taxed. That would be odd considering Japanese recipients of reparations received cash tax free.
Since you mentioned that words matter, the 40 acres being “more myth than fact” and “unlawful” would be misrepresentation. Lincoln agreed to the order (lawful) Sherman implemented it and Saxton carried it out under the Freedmen’s Bureau. Andrew Johnson a Southern sympathizer and widely regarded racist, overturned the order.
Ironically, the land redistribution was effectively a form of reparation (without calling it that). How could you discount that within a study, it was literally an option implemented during that era, while slaves were alive. Not 154 years later (contemporary refrain).
“My understanding is H.R. 40 would establish a study group. What would that study group come up with?”
That’s the crux of the issue. You question the viability of figuring out reparations for slavery (valid question when asked in good faith), but preemptively question the results of the study.
How can a reasonable solution be offered for anything without understanding it’s causes and effects?
I hope you don’t suffer. While studying and evaluating remember Hume’s law.
And who would disagree with helping those who help themselves?
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Please provide proof of Lincoln’s approval and research Supreme Court ruling’ I will respond to the balance later.
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@ PF thought
“I was simply curious as to what your lack of equal/similar suffering, had to do with you offering an opinion”
I am old and have my opinions. You seem to be young and have your opinions. There is no need for me to rehash all of my comments. Go back and read.
This is the world your are creating for your future. You ar not interested in my thoughts.
Reparation is about slavery! I have resolved my mind about slavery and I have on more than one occasion expressed my thought that Jim Crow has been the problem, not slavery. You cannot read actual facts about slavery, because no one was writing about it except the Abolitionist. If you want to be paid for the work of the slaves then you should pursue repayment.
If you want to be paid for the damage done to the blacks go to the history of Jim Crow. That was the day the owners took their slaves to the property end and told them to go find a way to feed themselves (Jim Crow began). There is no real man named Jim Crow that has any thing to do with the the term.
More on 40 acres and a mule. This was a General that wanted food for his army. I do not know where your myth came from. I am not willing to go back thru the hundred of stories and find the facts; however, I am sure that even any standard factual history book will explain the facts.
Please read the entire article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_acres_and_a_mule
I provided you with one of the early H.R 40 (H. R. 3745 1989 – 90). There is not going to be any increase in those that support the Bill. Just the south east states where the black population is about 33 % in each state. I support help for those that are in need and those who are attempting to move up. States in the north and far west are not impacted by racial problems that reparation is going to help. Education assistance will help!
“While studying and evaluating remember Hume’s law” I do not know who he is; however, I will look him up.—Sorry Hume’s is to complex for me! I have lived with my values I learned in the 30s 40s 50s!
I thought I made it clear. I research current publications, I allow others, like you, to make the big decisions!
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https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/articles/history-archaeology/shermans-field-order-no-15
or
https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/special-field-orders-no-15/
I suspect neither will suffice. If you are looking for an official declaration by Lincoln that would have been confirmatory but:
It was a wartime order, followed up on by the Secretary of War and always “Subject to the approval of the President;” hence Johnson’s ability to overturn the order.
Thus at minimum there was tacit approval from Lincoln considering he didn’t revoke the order (4 months prior to his death) as he did with General David Hunter’s proclamation.
I’m not sure where you are going with the Supreme court angle though I surmise it has something to do with habeas corpus. Do enlighten me.
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Allen,
“I am old and have my opinions…”
Come now Allen, I thought we were discussing in good faith. A quick summation would have sufficed. I have read some of your past comments, though I’m not sure they explained why you couldn’t offer an opinion in this context.
“You are not interested in my thoughts.”
We are having a discussion so by definition I am interested in your thoughts.
“You cannot read actual facts about slavery, because no one was writing about it except the Abolitionist.”
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/02/10/the-secret-writing-american-slaves/Lbem3fQ8viu8FmwXr2UcKO/story.html
I understand you’ve “resolved” your mind about slavery, but to make a statement like that is pure nonsense. Furthermore, how could you have resolved your mind on the issue without any “facts,” since facts are what you are most interested in. Unless you’ve come to your resolution because you don’t believe any writings about slavery, which would require an herculean effort to ignore any facts.
Moreover, IF it were only Abolitionist writers, do you believe that none of it would have been factual?
“More on 40 acres and a mule.”
You do recognize the link you posted states that Lincoln approved Special order 15. Also I provided you two links with facts (that clearly you already knew) and you just called it a myth. At this point would you rather discuss our opinions? Wait, you declined that as well.
Oh well, what more can I say?
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@ PF Though
“You do recognize the link you posted states that Lincoln approved Special order 15. Also I provided you two links with facts (that clearly you already knew) and you just called it a myth. At this point would you rather discuss our opinions? Wait, you declined that as well.
Oh well, what more can I say?”
You could say you read the entire article instead of the beginning and center!
What was the end results????????
Certainly I believe in the cruelty of slavery! Slavery is cruel anywhere that it is the method used. I also believe no one can really say that the Jews did not suffer as much as the blacks in the US or the people living in Russia did not suffer as much as blacks.
In the short end since you do selective reading, slavery has been around the world as far back as man can study and it exist today. And Sir, the slave today suffers just as much as the slaves of the southern United States did!
The small collection of documents that you have referenced could never be used to document the entire life of all of the slaves of the southern US. Saying Washington had slaves is a play on words. Of course Washington had slaves, of course Thomas Jefferson had slaves. What you fail to admit is Washington was the President of the Constitution Convention and was a part of those who stopped the shipment of people from Africa to be slave after 1808.
Your desire to look at one side of a coin and declare your opinion with no knowledge of the other two sides is almost laughable (yes the edge is a side)!
Why do I not express an opinion? Because i do not wish to spend the balance of my life reading about a period that is best left to historians of the next century! I have read about 298 articles about the past and see no agreement as to how people were treated. One article blamed the slave owner for the dirty floors of the homes which had dirt floor. Were the slave incapable of sweeping their floors? In the period studied many poor people lived on dirt floors.
It is reported that many slaves were allowed to have their own gardens to provide their food! Who knows, maybe they could also own a few animals. Do you know?
I will continue to believe that “JIM CROW” was the period of true devestation of the black in the US. The history of lynchings should tell you something! The KKK formed after slavery ended. The starvation and death of millions(?) of blacks between 1865 and 1924 should be examined more carefully!
Blacks have contributed to the success of this nation since it beginning. Little was recorded as “blacks” history, history was recorded as history without naming race on many occasions, therefore I will tell you nothing much was written by blacks who experienced the time because writing was not a big thing and also reporters did not write about blacks!
Question to You: Approximate 1000 or more black member of the US Air Corp were shipped to Germany in 1946. They left in 1949. Your job is to tell me what they did! Find their record!
Next tell me how many stories have you read about the black serviceman that fought and served in Korea and Vietnam!
In fact what do you know about what the black has done beside being a slave?
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Allen,
“You could say you read the entire article instead of the beginning and center!”
What gave you the impression I didn’t read the whole article? I stayed focused on the relevant conversation which was Lincoln’s support of the order and the supposed myth of 40 acres and a mule. If you disagree with that let me know.
You then included the argument that the order was due to the need to feed people. Think about that statement, people were starving so he gave them land. Yes people were starving, there was not enough rations to feed troops let alone emancipated slaves.
Did you notice the link you posted also mentions the meeting with black representatives who suggested land redistribution (that was in my link too). How could you ignore that in deference to hunger? I gave you facts. You then supported the facts I gave you with YOUR link. Yet you still called it a myth. How?
“The small collection of documents that you have referenced could never be used to document the entire life of all of the slaves of the southern US.”
A large collection of documents could not accomplish what you state either. Every single person who was an American slave would had to have written an account of their life, while enslaved. But that old reading and writing issue would’ve needed to have been resolved first.
Thus I never claimed it would have or did. I only sought to broaden your perspective on some actual slave writings during their enslavement, which you claimed as a fact did not exist.
“Your desire to look at one side of a coin and declare your opinion with no knowledge of the other two sides is almost laughable (yes the edge is a side)!”
Not sure where this came from. Can you clarify?
“I have read about 298 articles about the past and see no agreement as to how people were treated.”
Well you do agree they were treated cruelly so that is a start. They could be whipped. They could be raped. They could be sold at any time. Their children and family members could be sold at any time. They were considered property. In America it was race based. It was state supported. It was federally supported. Do I really need to continue? Would you disagree these were shared experiences by American slaves?
Yes slaves were treated differently, no two life experiences are ever exactly the same. And relatively speaking, slaves may have preferred one type of master of another a la Harriet Ann Jacobs. But they are still choosing the lesser of two evils within one system.
“What you fail to admit is…”
I literally acknowledged the Importation Act, Washington’s presence was not being discussed.
As for Thomas Jefferson (keeping with seeing both sides of course), he also attempted to bar slavery within future territories in 1784, though that also would have given slave owners 16 years to expand into the West. He didn’t act against slavery in Virginia, opposed Edward Cole freeing his slaves in Illinois and during the Missouri debates opposed any restrictions to slavery in the West. Are you seeing that EDGE yet.
“I will continue to believe that “JIM CROW” was the period of true devestation of the black in the US.”
Back to my original question (finally); the above statement is why I was asking your opinion if reparations would have made more sense to YOU in this context? Especially since Jim Crow was a consequence of the ending of slavery and white opposition toward more free black people.
“Question to You:”
I have read stories about black servicemen in both wars, though again not clear on the relevance besides the intimation that I only see black people as slaves, which is ironic because I started out asking your opinion about Jim Crow. I digress.
In fact what do you know about what the black has done besides being a slave?
Okay, this is trick question.
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Your comment gets longer and longer I suppose to attempt to prove some point. When two individuals read the same article and fail to understand it is better to stop the conversation!
The fact is regardless of how many Generals signed Generals Orders and the president signed, the property was taken away from the blacks and given back to the original southern owners!
Any black ownership was by purchase! Thus the 40 acres and a mule is a myth.
I am not sure what you are talking about when you talk about Jim Crow. I gave you my opinion! Jim Crow was worse than slavery!
If you studied the way all people were treated in the period 1492 until 1865, you would find that those people who had titles such as slave, peon, serf or any other of the terms for those people at the bottom of the social structure were treated the same way. To limit the way the slave in the US was treated from others is called selectivity and is without merit.
(How are we treating the immigrants on the Mexican border)
Study world history!
You failed to understand that the history of the blacks has not been recorded properly. You therefore cannot go back into history and produce facts.
White property owners and previous slave owners took their previous slaves to the property edge and told them they were free and not come back on the land. This was recorded by the property owners. Can you find any history written by a black that was actually a victim of such an action?
Instead of arguing with my statement you should have tried to reearch the question I ask so you could learn how history is not written and can therefore never be proven!
Spend your time finding a way to force the recording of history for the blacks.
What was the black contribution during the Vietnam War?
Other then the 99th Pursuit Squadron and 54th Mass what do you know about black service personnel contribution?
What do you know about the Buffalo Soldier? (this should be easy for you)
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“Your comment gets longer and longer I suppose to attempt to prove some point.”
I thought the conversation was ending when I asked “what more can I say” and then you responded.
As a courtesy I was responding to some of the side arguments you kept bringing up. This wasn’t a debate, it was simply a discussion (a way of learning).
“When two individuals read the same article and fail to understand it is better to stop the conversation!”
Or see if things can be clarified (darn third side of that coin again). I pointed out that your article agreed with me. There was no failure on my end to understand. The facts were the same. Your interpretation speaks for itself.
For brevity’s sake, you’re skilled at deflection which is useful to reinforce (confirmation bias) and what you already believe (self-serving bias).
When you study history keep those points in mind. For the record I study world history, opinions and the facts as we uncover and change them. That is how I can challenge my own interpretations.
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@ PF Thought
Thank you for sharing the link to the Boston Globe article, “The secret writing of American slaves”. It was quite a glimpse into the humanity and the anguish of ordinary people who also happened to be enslaved.
Reading that article brought to mind a book of transcribed oral histories, “Bullwhip Days – The Slaves Remember” edited by James Mellon.
That article also reminded me of the irrepressible 1865 letter dictated by ex-slave Jourdon Anderson, “To My Old Master”.
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/01/to-my-old-master.html
Blogger, Shaun Usher, notes in his introduction to the widely published letter:
Telling passages in the letter revolve around Anderson’s request to the former slaveholder for back wages. Anderson writes:
When Shaun Usher reprinted that letter in 2012, there were many who scoffed and declared it a fake. Usher linked to to the image of an 1865 New York Daily Tribune reprint of the letter. That was only one of the papers that reprinted the letter.
Another blogger fleshed out the person behind the “To My Old Master” letter, Jourdon Anderson. That article, “What happened to the former slave that wrote his old master?” by Jason Kottke is a geneological study of the Anderson family after their move to Ohio.
Truth can be stranger than fiction. Facts are more powerful than opinion.
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@ Allen Shaw
Afrofem’s comment above jogged my memory about a direct source that sheds light on one harmful practice during slavery: family separation.
This source material consists of the classified ads placed by former slaves trying to find their family members:
https://informationwanted.org/mapping-the-ads
This is the type of advance in historical research that I’ve mentioned to you before. These advertisements were always here, but it is only relatively recently that historians have begun searching for them, compiling them, and gleaning information from them that can provide a picture of the impact of slavery on the real lives of average everyday people.
Like this one:
“My mother was sold from me when I could but crawl. She belonged to Jim Finley in Dade Co., Mo. I had two sisters and two brothers Mother’s name was Sicler Finley. When sold she was taken to Arkansaw. At the age of three years Jim Finley’s father gave me to Dave Long’s wife. I never saw any of my people. I was about 39 years old last March”
Or this one:
“I wish to inquire for my kin-folks. Father used to belong to a man by the name of Smith. Mother to a man by the name of Good. … [T]wo brothers of us and four sisters. My name is now Mary Green, I left them in Mecklenburgh county, Va., 32 years ago.”
Or this one:
“I am inquiring for my wife and three children. My wife went by the name of Caroline McAdams, and belonged to William McAdams. He moved to Texas in 1851, and carried my wife and two children. Their names Susan Eliza and Martha Luevinia. My son William Allen, was born after leaving Bellefontaine, Miss. I have not heard from them since July 1854.”
Also, some slaves did in fact write or dictate letters in the years prior to emancipation. Here is one online collection at Duke University:
https://library.duke.edu/rubenstein/research/guides/slaveletters
Towards the bottom of the webpage, it also provides the titles of some anthologies:
Blacks in Bondage: Letters of American Slaves, edited by Robert S. Starobin.
New York, New Viewpoints, 1974.
Slave Testimony: Two Centuries of Letters, Speeches, Interviews, and Autobiographies, Louisiana State University Press, 1977.
Slaves No More: Letters from Liberia, 1833-1869, edited by Bell I. Wiley. Lexington : University Press of Kentucky, 1980.
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Afrofem,
Your welcome. I was familiar with the letter but not the book, thanks.
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@ Solitaire
I will have to check out those books. Thanks!
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And yet this person thinks “Slavery wasn’t so bad as Jim Crow.” Jesus wept, will somebody make that make sense.
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Perhaps this person knows more about Jim Crow then most of you who are reading letters published during the Jim Crow period!
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Saying that “Slavery wasn’t so bad as Jim Crow is just plain ridiculous. They were both abhorrent and heinous systems that oppressed and persecuted black people. Both are equal in their evil and inhumane treatment of black Americans. It matters not that this poster who made this absurd statement lived during that time. Plus since they didn’t live during the time of slavery they have no way to make a comparison to prove this is true.
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@Abagond: I know this is probably opening a can of worms but would you consider doing a post about whether Jim Crow was worse than slavery? I believe they were equally the same in being systematically evil and oppressive to black Americans.
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Comparisons are impossible in fact!
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Hey Mary,
How do we seriously compare the two? By what measures? Why would we?
Jim Crow may have offered it’s own brand of terribleness (lynchings), especially given the pretense of freedom chained by it’s black codes.
Yet, do any of us believe most emancipated slaves would have preferred chattel slavery over Jim Crow?
If you believe they are equally oppressive and evil, then why compare them?
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@PF Thought: That is my point there can be no comparison. They are both equally heinous and evil and oppressive. But I will let you and Shaw have this discussion.
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@ Shaw: There are no facts to substantiate your absurd statement. But I am going to let you cook Pops.
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@PF Thought: That is why I would be interested in what Abagond thought about this and what others think about it.
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Even though black Americans were emancipated they still couldn’t live under the oppression of the system of Jim Crow, so they ended up leaving the South, this is how the Great Migration started.
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Leaving one nightmare of oppression to enter another one.
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If freedom is the engine that powers self-determination, I can’t see how anyone drives toward slavery.
He may advocate it being the worst to focus on the effects of Jim Crow on black people and it’s modern consequences.
There are more effective ways to accomplish that without diminishing the impact of slavery.
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@PF Thought: Well said
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@PF Thought: Well said.
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Slavery exist all over the world. Yesterday today and tomorrow. Blacks refer to slavery in the US. They exclude all other slavery. I do not dismiss the impact of slavery I pay attention to the Jim Crow period more closely. The lynchings and disappearancesl of blacks. Blacks living without protection of the law. The law working against the blacks. Black share croppers and other blacks cheated when they sold their crops. Many more atrocities. Slavery pales in comparison to Jim Crow! People read about a beating and assume every slave was beaten every morning for breakfast. Remember Jim Crow was a deep south thing. Back in the woods living. A million ways to belittle a human! Today’s black cannot even grasp the period!
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@ PF Thought
The commenter in question compares chattel slavery and the system of Jim Crow on a routine basis. The commenter bases the comparison on feelings, past observations and opinions.
What is missing in those comparisons are the ways in which Jim Crow is a continuation chattel slavery with a few tweaks. Also missing is an understanding of how the present day Prison Industrial Complex (aka the Carceral State aka ‘The New Jim Crow’) is a continuation of the the system built post-Reconstruction to contain, surveil and limit the political power of the Black population.
Each iteration of the system has unique features and objectives:
◉ Chattel slavery was about pure unadulterated labor exploitation. Unabashed violence and family separation were key features of that iteration.
◉ The Black Code era was about containment of the Black population through repressive laws and terror. Mob Violence and intimidation were used to prevent Black self-determination and economic competition.
◉ The the present Prison Industrial Complex era is about rollbacks of Black de jure gains from the Civil Rights and Black Freedom struggles. Mob violence and intimidation has been delegated to
a specific set of violence workerspolice.
The present era also features family and community destruction under the guise of
population pushouts and dispersal“gentrification” and an ever expanding list of “crimes” for which Black people are most heavily punished.
What is different in the current era are racial optics: the Black Faces in High Places illusion. Black reality on the ground is nowhere near the bright and shiny illusion of Black progress. That is a feature, not a bug. This feature operates as a sophisticated and effective form of control.
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“And basing the comparison on feelings, past observations, and opinions” Yeah, this part. Feelings, past observations and opinions do not equal to facts. Even after memoirs by historians and scholars on slavery is presented, Shaw refuses to be dismissive. I get it he’s of a certain age and stuck in this particular time frame and stubborn and unwilling to be open to new information. He’s out of touch when it comes to critical race theory and racial politics. You can’t move on to the future without studying the past, and what’s happening in the present.
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Typo: Shaw continues to be dismissive. ^^^^^^^^
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In this current climate of political upheaval with the country slowing slipping into an autocracy one cannot be dismissive of white supremacy. Marginalized groups are being targeted for hate crimes. The current occupant of the White House refers to black people as “infestations” and coming from s-holes. The prison industrial complex has evolved into the new plantations built for black and brown folks. Law enforcement is nothing but an evolution of modern day slave catchers. When the phrase Make America Great Again, means a large segment of the dominant culture wants to see black people go back to slavery.
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Typo: the country slowly slipping ^^^^^^
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My statement “Comparisons are impossible in fact!!”
Why does anyone accuse me of comparing. Even when I state the opinion that one was far worse then another, I have already said it is impossible to compare.
Many of the letters that are contained in the publications were collected in the middle of the last century. The 1929 project interviewed people 64 years after slavery had ended. The person would have to be 72 years old or older to have field experience since it was common to wait until about 12 before going to the field.
I do not doubt the fact that slavery was a horror! It is my personal opinion, that the attack on the blacks after slavery was ended was far more disastrous.(Jim Crow)
The current treatment of blacks has not been a part of this conversation and since I have not been victimized by the current attacks i cannot comment. Remember the burning of the city in Kansas, that was Jim Crow.
“According to the Tuskegee Institute, 4,743 people were lynched between 1882 and 1968 in the United States, including 3,446 African Americans and 1,297 whites. More than 73 percent of lynchings in the post-Civil War period occurred in the Southern states.”
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/map-shows-over-a-century-of-documented-lynchings-in-united-states-180961877/
“It’s unlikely historians will ever know just how many lynchings happened throughout the history of the U.S., as many likely went unreported, or were not classified as lynchings in documentation at the time. However, the sheer number of those that are on the books is staggering—according to the Equal Justice Initiative’s (EJI) 2015 report, Lynching in America, more than 4,000 black people were publicly murdered in the U.S. between 1877 and 1950. Tools like this site serves as an important endeavor to help mark these dark parts of American history and make it more visible and accessible for all.”
Read the sentence above: (That means approximately 8,000 lynchings) A black persons life was valueless after slavery ended!
Can you imagine what it feels like to be alone and have a crowd yelling for your life? To have your body pulled apart while you are alive, to be burned while you are alive? Do you understand what a lynching was and how it impacted the minds of all of the blacks who witnessed it? Even if they do not show the picture of the blacks, they were there!
I understand the desire to make slavery in the US the worse that could happen to mankind!
Stop saying I am dismissive of slavery! I place it in “my current category” of events not anyone else’s!
I have lived in NC. Ala, La Tex Utah, Wash, Ohio, NJ, Alaska, Germany, and England.
I worked for and supervised whites. I do not consider them to be superior or inferior, they, like all of us, are whatever they were born to be
and impacted by their surroundings! Since I left my home in 1945 I have crossed this nation many times both by train and auto plus by air.
My life and career have been threaten and others have worked to save them.
I believe I have actual experience that many “readers” do not have! Stop putting words in my “comments”!
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@ Allen Shaw
Lynchings were terrible, no argument there. But I don’t know why you believe things were any different during slavery, unless it’s because you were educated at a time when history schoolbooks still claimed owners treated their slaves well.
None of the following sounds much different from the Jim Crow violence to me:
“In 1729, the colony [of Maryland] passed a law permitting punishment for slaves including hanging, decapitation, and cutting the body into four quarters for public display.”
“A man named Harding describes an incident in which a woman assisted several men in a minor rebellion: ‘The women he hoisted up by the thumbs, whipp’d and slashed her with knives before the other slaves till she died.'”
“Mutilation (such as castration, or amputating ears) was a relatively common punishment during the colonial era and still used in 1830. Any punishment was permitted for runaway slaves, and many bore wounds from shotgun blasts or dog bites used by their captors.”
“The 1712 South Carolina slave code included the following provisions: Any slave attempting to run away and leave the colony (later, the state) received the death penalty. Any slave who evaded capture for 20 days or more was to be publicly whipped for the first offense; branded with an “R” on the right cheek on the second offense; lose one ear if absent for thirty days on the third offense, and castrated on the fourth offense. . . . Slave homes were searched every two weeks for weapons or stolen goods. Punishment escalated from loss of an ear, branding and nose-slitting to death on the fourth offense.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatment_of_slaves_in_the_United_States
“Most slaveholders preferred to punish the enslaved privately, as a whipping still allowed laborers to immediately return to work, while imprisonment interrupted their work schedule. Thus, the vast majority of slaves incarcerated in local jails were runaways who were being held until their masters could retrieve them. Louisiana was the only Deep South state to regularly house slaves in the penitentiary (as an alternative to hanging); the other states simply brutalized enslaved African Americans privately and set them back to work as quickly as possible. Free blacks, however, were frequently incarcerated for the same reasons as poor whites.
“Most antebellum inmates were not incarcerated for murder, rape, or even assault; instead, about half of them spent years behind bars—or at hard labor—for insignificant property crimes like petit larceny and burglary. Many others were there for non-violent behavioral “crimes” like vagrancy, drunkenness, and gambling. The point of most of these arrests was neither to punish nor to reform. Instead, slave owners used these laws to dominate and scare poor whites and free blacks into docility, jailing them for months or years at a time—often without the chance to stand trial.
“It should be noted that one particular punishment invoked the overwhelming indignation of white convicts: public whipping. While most scholars assert that the public whipping of white men and women ended in America during the Jacksonian period, these customs did, in fact, continue in the Deep South’s slave societies until after the Civil War. A primary objective of whipping white people was to completely and utterly embarrass them, degrading them to the level of slaves. South Carolina Governor John Means confirmed this point in 1852, stating that ‘when a white man once had” a public whipping, “he disappeared and never returned again.’…
“Throughout the later antebellum years, prisoners produced a wide array of goods, from wagons to slave shoes to pails to bricks. Penitentiary superintendents, as well as county-level sheriffs, even conducted their own versions of convict leasing. And yet connections between the antebellum carceral system and its various manifestations during Reconstruction and Jim Crow remain gravely understudied. As legal scholar Richard Morris hypothesized, the relatively frequent imprisonment of poor white and free black southerners, combined with other methods of compelling them to work at low wages, set the precedent for the treatment of all African Americans following the Thirteenth Amendment. …
“Indeed, the jailing, whipping, and brutalization of convicts during the antebellum period undoubtedly paved the way for the violence of the criminal justice system during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. The precedents set by a harsh legal system during slavery would give former slaveholders an avenue towards re-enslavement in all but name following emancipation. The structures were there; the standards had been established.”
https://www.aaihs.org/private-public-and-vigilante-violence-in-slave-societies-part-2/
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“Always working in tandem with local criminal justice systems, the Deep South’s vigilante groups were populated by the same men who ran local and state governments, comprised the slave patrols, and lorded over and brutalized the enslaved privately. While many Americans have long wondered why there were not more instances of slave rebellions, or revolts among the lower classes, the absence of these uprisings was a result of a system so complete and vicious that it prevented riots before they began. It also stopped poor whites and blacks from banding together in solidarity against the slaveholders. Indeed, the master class’ carefully crafted extra-legal code of violence allowed them to lord over a system predicated upon baseless fears, unfounded gossip, and targeted innuendo. “It was a system grown of commitments to total mastery,” one historian wrote, “and it was accepted because it terrorized to silence almost all public doubts about the peculiar institution that fathered it.” While scholars will never know exactly how many people endured the horrors of southern mobs and vigilantes, it is quite clear that the bloodshed intensified in the decade prior to the Civil War. There were at least 300 reported lynchings each year in what would become the Confederacy.
https://www.aaihs.org/private-public-and-vigilante-violence-in-slave-societies-part-3/
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https://www.aaihs.org/homicide-justified-the-legality-of-killing-slaves-in-the-atlantic-world/
The article in this link, about the 1847 trial of a white woman accused of killing one of her slaves, is taken from a book that seems like it would be a very illuminating read: Homicide Justified: The Legality of Killing Slaves in the United States and the Atlantic World by Andrew T. Fede, which “reveals the changing legal reforms of slave homicide, and how these laws would underlay the legal attitudes of the Jim Crow era.”
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@ Allen Shaw
“I understand the desire to make slavery in the US the worse that could happen to mankind!”
Where has anyone said that? Mary Burrell just stated several times that she thinks U.S. slavery and Jim Crow were equally bad.
Personally I wouldn’t have any issue with your opinion that Jim Crow was worse except for two things: you are painting an inaccurate picture of slavery and you tend to bring up Jim Crow in order to argue against reparations for slavery.
“I do not consider them to be superior or inferior, they, like all of us, are whatever they were born to be and impacted by their surroundings!”
Where has anyone argued here that whites are inferior? Americans need to be able to discuss past history in order to fully understand and correct present injustices. White people as a group are going to have to learn that when POC bring up the wrongs committed by our ancestors, it is not some kind of slur against us personally.
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I have not painred any picture of slavery. Please provide my comments.
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I didn’t saw you dismissed it, only that you diminish it’s impact. When you say Jim Crow is worst than U.S. slavery that is a direct comparison of the two systems.
To say slavery existed all over the world in an effort to diminish US slavery, really just diminishes slavery.
All slavery wasn’t created equal. U.S. was a true slave society which is rare compared to society’s who had slaves. And you agree they weren’t treated the same.
Black people don’t have a monopoly on the sufferings of slavery in history. But in America we come damn close to it, save the early experiences of the American Indians. Yet the Cherokee kept African slaves as well as other black people.
As I mentioned to Mary, your argument would be compelling if you let Jim Crow stand on its own merits regarding its impact on modern times.
BTW, don’t let the north off the hook regarding Jim Crow.
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@ Allen Shaw
“A black man may have been one of the first black individuals in the north east to own a slave!”
“Some blacks own slaves until the end of the Civil War. Only a small percent of whites own slaves.”
“Many individuals owned one slave and the slave lived in the home with the family.”
“There have been affluent black people in the United States as far as the Civil War and some blacks owned many slaves.”
“the ‘founding fathers’ attempted to stop slavery but failed.”
“Some of the black universities started out as schools for children of white slave owners. The history of the south east states has some surprising stories.”
“You cannot read actual facts about slavery, because no one was writing about it except the Abolitionist.”
“That was the day the owners took their slaves to the property end and told them to go find a way to feed themselves”
“One article blamed the slave owner for the dirty floors of the homes which had dirt floor. Were the slave incapable of sweeping their floors?”
“It is reported that many slaves were allowed to have their own gardens to provide their food! Who knows, maybe they could also own a few animals. Do you know?”
“If you studied the way all people were treated in the period 1492 until 1865, you would find that those people who had titles such as slave, peon, serf or any other of the terms for those people at the bottom of the social structure were treated the same way. To limit the way the slave in the US was treated from others is called selectivity and is without merit.”
“People read about a beating and assume every slave was beaten every morning for breakfast.”
Some of these comments may well be factual, but when these are the aspects of slavery that you continually stress, it does in fact seem like you are painting a picture of slavery as not being so bad — especially considering that your comments are rejoinders to other people who are discussing how bad slavery was.
Some of what you argue above has been disproven by modern research. For example:
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/aug/24/viral-image/viral-post-gets-it-wrong-extent-slavery-1860/
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Like today, there are very few blacks whow are at the very top of the financial ladder. What is the percentage of blacks to the balance of the US? Also, what is the percentage of blacks in the deep south? Point is statistics lie!
My computer is broke so you will have to wait for my respons
Excellent summation of my remarks. It will take time to read and see what I was thinking when I responded to each. many comments are not read correctly.
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@ Allen Shaw
Solitaire was able to glean twelve “slavery was not that bad” gems from your most recent comments. I’m sure there are many more. Sometimes those comments read like the “heritage, not hate” bad faith deflections common among neo-Confederate slavery apologists.
I was curious as to why you continue to dismiss African slavery in America? Why the fixation on the Jim Crow era? Why the lack of interest in current White Supremacist ideology and actions? Then you wrote this:
It seems that my earlier assessment that, “The commenter [Allen Shaw] bases the comparison [between slavery and Jim Crow] on feelings, past observations and opinions.” was not out of line. It is all about you, your experiences and your opinions.
Allen Shaw, I hope that at some point, you muster the intellectual curiosity to pull back and take a longer view. The Jim Crow era did not appear in a historical vacuum. There were social and political events that led to that period, chief among them was the institution of racialized slavery in America.
The successes and failures of the Jim Crow era led directly to the current treatment of Black people in this country. It doesn’t matter whether you have any sense of personal victimization or not. If you are a person of African descent, the history of precolonial Africa, the slavery period and the Jim Crow period impacts your life.
Understanding the past informs the present—-and the future. As Mary Burrell stated upthread:
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You do not find one statement of mine that says slavery was not bad. U chose to reword or mistate my words.
You spend a portion of your time creating your mistreatment that you have received and believing you would be far ahead if only you were not black. Yet all around you are blacks who have succeeded reaching the highest levels of both government and bussiness.
Surrounding you also are millions of poor whites who will always be at the bottom of the heap!
Now, it does not matter what percent of blacks owned slaves, the fact that any owned slaves really means that some how some blacks thought it was OK! That is not me, that was them then, long before you were around.
Looking back on history requires an acceptance of the reality of the time. When you are my age some young individual will tell you that you failed. You are going to live the life I have lived.
It is useless for you to attempt to tell people that live before you were born and maybe your parents were born what they should have done.
Second guessing your parents has never been wise.
About that famous word “Reparation” you will notice that South African asked for “reconciliation”! There thinkers did not want the next several hundred years of hate that your dream will create.
Find the number of times I have said “Help those that need help”!!!!
Learn how to read with an open mind!
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@ Allen Shaw
“U chose to reword or mistate my words.”
Those are direct quotes. I didn’t change one single letter.
“You spend a portion of your time creating your mistreatment that you have received and believing you would be far ahead if only you were not black.”
Is this directed at me?
“When you are my age some young individual will tell you that you failed.”
Where has anyone here told you, “Mr. Shaw, you failed”???
Disagreeing with some of your statements is not the same thing as calling you a failure.
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Excellent article. I have it somewhere. I am not sure what antibellum means since my computer is down and I haven’t learned how to research with this phone. I do believe the treatment described still exist in some backwoods communities.
Cruelty exist in all humans. It has always been that way.
So it is clear I have never said slavery was not horrible. I just have studied Jim Crow more than most. Many of my Co workers migrated from the deep south many years ago. Most of there children and grandchildren are college graduate. I understand from living what you are reading.
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If you read the comments totally they say I am failing.
My attempt to see a need for peace among US citizens seems to be failing!
The heavy population of blacks in the deep south (5 States) is a target for radical white nationalist.
Please study history of the world!
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Antebellum is Latin for “before the war” and is often used to mean before the U.S. Civil War, especially when talking about the South.
So, for example, when the article says
“Most antebellum inmates were not incarcerated for murder, rape, or even assault” it means “Most inmates in the South in the years prior to the Civil War were not …”
Can you bring up Google on your phone? You might already have an icon for it installed on your phone. Or try typing in http://www.google.com (or just click here if it posts as a link). Then you can use Google to look things up using your phone.
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“Antebellum” is a nice way of saying “slave times”.
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@Solitaire: He is “assuming “ that you are a black woman, I don’t think he knows you are not black. He made the same wrong assumption with commenter Jeffe. Always “assuming.”
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@ Mary Burrell
If that comment is even directed at me — I’m not sure, he sometimes switches who he’s responding to within the same post.
But I did just write on this thread yesterday:
“White people as a group are going to have to learn that when POC bring up the wrongs committed by our ancestors, it is not some kind of slur against us personally.”
I thought that was pretty darn clear.
If he did direct that comment at me, it goes to show he’s just assuming what other people in this thread think and do without basing it on anything they say.
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I can’t say it enough, in order to move on to the future, the past and present must be studied. I discovered this blog and loved how Abagond loved studying the history of the United States and the world complete with all it’s ugliness. Especially in regards to black Americans, where did all these ugly racist ideas come from? A great number of folks think this is a hate blog but that is a mistake. I have learned a lot of things from Abagond and the many commentators good and bad. I want to explore the past and the present. It’s not a bad thing, I don’t want to bury my head in the sand like some dumb ostrich and pretend things are not happening. Ignorance is not bliss. I hope we can continue to talk about the ugliness of the history of this country. America has never been great for black or brown people, or any person of color. All men were not created equal.
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We don’t have to have lived during Jim Crow, one can still learn by using all the resources to learn about that time period. Reading and studying versus actually living during that time less valid.
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@Afrofem
I think your observation about Jim Crow being personal to Alan is spot on. Earlier up-thread he wrote, “Remember Jim Crow was a deep south thing. Back in the woods living. A million ways to belittle a human! Today’s black cannot even grasp the period!” That’s not commentary on the softer Jim Crow of history books, i.e. segregation and oppression with an occasional act of violence by the KKK. It’s a commentary on the continuation of the lawless abuses of slavery without regard for any protections which may have been afforded by slaves being property. In other words, I think he’s lived and/or witnessed some “back woods” experiences, perhaps abuse for sport as opposed to punishment which may seem easier to rationalize given the times of slavery. I could be way off base here, but I think that’s what he’s driving at. That during slavery, people were owned, treated as property and abused and murdered in the course of managing them as property (which he agrees is horrific). However, during Jim Crow, I think he perceives (likely through personal experience) that those same abuses and murders took place for no reason other than race. I too think it’s deeply personal for him.
@Alan Shaw
Firstly, I’ve stated elsewhere that I believe you’re not who I originally took you to be. I often disagree with your conclusions, but I also appreciate your insights very much. I feel you’re the kind of person I’d love to sit on the porch and chat with over coffee to hear your stories and debate some opinions with.
Secondly, all of the types of comments that Solitaire quoted above are why I mistook you for a White troll masquerading as a Black person. Those sentiments are counter-productive to any effort to improve race relations in the U.S. and those are the exact types of comments I hear daily from acquaintances and read from White people and Fox News anchors and everyone else trying to diminish the lasting impacts of our slave-owning history. There is a straight line from slavery to the powerful racist men making policies within our government in 2019. I appreciate you’re premise that focusing on Jim Crow might be better… it might actually be true, because “slavery was hundreds of years ago” is a common refrain whereas many people are alive today that can debate the impacts of Jim Crow before Congress right now. But, your comments often do read as an attempt to diminish the legacy of slavery and that will continue to be met with solid pushback because those are the comments we so often see from the “bootstraps” crowd.
Thirdly, none of us were alive during slave times but, many of us seem to have a more detailed view of that history. Trying to help you see that history is not a personal attack on you, your personal experiences, nor anything you’ve accomplished in spite of the Jim Crow era times you had to endure. Speaking only for myself, I respect your opinions and appreciate your commentary. I also respect that you’ve earned the right to be “set in your ways”. I ask you though, whatever your life experience was during Jim Crow, would you have been better off if my ancestors had owned you? I don’t mean to be insensitive, and I apologize if that comment offends anyone but, that’s the reality of slavery. Regardless of how slaves were treated, at the end of the day, their lives were not their own. Whites invented race to justify that and racism to enforce it. Slavery is at the root of race relations in the U.S. today whether we acknowledge it or not. Whether you think of it as worse than Jim Crow or not isn’t particularly relevant because Jim Crow was the natural result of a nation of racists with nowhere to focus their racism after abolition. Just as mass incarceration is a modern continuation of that unfocused racism.
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Afrofem,
“Then you wrote this: The current treatment of blacks has not been a part of this conversation and since I have not been victimized by the current attacks i cannot comment.”
That is basically what I was asking him which started our discussion. I gave Allen the analogy of us having to be jurors irrespective of ones personal experience with a particular type of suffering.
Since he so connected to the the Jim Crow era I asked if reparations would make sense because of the impact of Jim Crow? I thought that would have been relevant.
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Typo: Reading and studying vs living during that time does make it less valid.
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*does not *^^^^
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@ Solitaire
According to my reading, Allen Shaw’s “…if only you were not black” comment was not directed at you. I understood it as yet another “bootstrap yourself out of racism Black people!” exhortation.
Par for the course, considering the source.
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That and Shaw’s constant deployment of straw men, deflections and other unrelated fallacies.
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Yeah his Horacio Alger shtick is quite galling along with his condescending remarks of. “Do better, all the while assuming that people are no doing better. UGH! It just grinds my gears. 🤬😡
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Plus he is an apologist for Thomas Jefferson.
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@ Mary
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@ Allen Shaw
Open Minded Observer said this to you upthread:
“I feel you’re the kind of person I’d love to sit on the porch and chat with over coffee to hear your stories and debate some opinions with.”
I feel the same way. And truth be told, if we were sitting on that porch, I would probably debate very little of what you had to say, out of respect for your age and your experiences. I would mostly just sit and listen. But in that case, you see, it would just be you and me sitting on that porch.
Here on Abagond’s blog, on these threads, there are lurkers — people who read but don’t comment. I know the lurkers exist because I started off as a lurker, as did some other regular commenters. On this blog, unlike the porch, we have an unseen audience.
And everything we commenters talk about here is preserved online, so unlike that conversation on the porch, someone can come along 5 years from now and read our discussion here.
It’s because of those readers that I end up debating you on this forum, whereas in real life in a private conversation I would not. As Afrofem and Open Minded Observer have pointed out, some of what you say sounds exactly the same as arguments used by bigoted white people to excuse slavery and dismiss its lasting effects. And I know that some of those bigoted white people — or maybe people who were raised with those racist beliefs but are now questioning them — are lurking here reading along, or may stumble across this thread a couple years from now.
So when you say things about slavery that I know are historically inaccurate, I feel the need to provide the counterargument not so much to argue with you but for those lurkers to consider and think about.
I don’t mean for that to come off as disrespect for your age or as “second guessing your parents,” just as a healthy airing of different views.
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I love the debate! Unlike Joe Biden I am not going to run for office and be held responsible for all of the errors I have made.
One of my bosses told me that 50% error rating was OK since that meant that 50% was correct!
I reminded him that none of my previous supervisor thought I should make mistakes. They punished me by comment on my reviews. That was then, this is now!
For those politians that lie they have to live with their past.
Pay attention to the promises that individuals are making that only Congress can delive.
My computer is on the down side, I am waiting for the repair person. This little phone is not adequate for me. Research is impossible. I cannot communicate without research!
more later.
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The problem with many comments is the misreading of the source! People tend to see something in a comment that is not there. I have never said slavery was good; however, many comments say I have.
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Open Minded Observer,
“However, during Jim Crow, I think he perceives (likely through personal experience) that those same abuses and murders took place for no reason other than race.”
Allen stated: “Read the sentence above: (That means approximately 8,000 lynchings) A black persons life was valueless after slavery ended!
Can you imagine what it feels like to be alone and have a crowd yelling for your life?”
I agree and feel Shaw’s passion and experience regarding the effects of Jim Crow. The irony is the “value” of black lives during slavery were dependent on the market and the master. Without that market (Jim Crow), their valuelessness was revealed (as Shaw points out).
Furthermore, allowing that reasoning to persist, leads to some people believing that black people were better off during slavery. Which I don’t believe Shaw was stating.
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@ PF Thought
Shaw’s “passion and experience” regarding Jim Crow are valid as far as anyone’s passion and experience goes. Shaw’s commentary about the Jim Crow period is a one-note song. It lacks depth. According to his view, Jim Crow:
◎ operated only in the South. In fact, there was plenty of anti-Black segregation and humiliation in the North and out West.
◎ anti-Black mob violence such as lynchings were more frequent than today’s police shootings, taserings and beatings, etc.
◎ all Black people were impoverished sharecroppers. In reality, there were prosperous Black farmers, Black shopkeepers and a tiny Black professional class that grew during the Black Codes era. Black farmers alone controlled millions of acres of land. According to a Nation article, “African Americans Have Lost Untold Acres of Land Over the Last Century” by Leah Douglas:
https://www.thenation.com/article/african-americans-have-lost-acres/
◎ the lives of all Black people are significantly better now that old-style Jim Crow is dismantled. By Shaw’s own admission, “[he has] not been victimized by the current attacks”. Anti-Black attacks don’t concern him if he did not personally experience those attacks. That is true for both the slave period that led to Jim Crow or the modern period that flowed from the Segregation era. As I argued upthread, we are merely experiencing another iteration or mutation of the original disease of racialized slavery.
Another thing I find curious is Shaw’s presumption that no other commenter had experience with Jim Crow. Some of the commenters (and lurkers) on this forum have firsthand experience with Jim Crow or learned of it from the oral histories in their families. Jim Crow is not some distant and notorious land of terror, it is familiar ground for some of us.
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Isabel Wilkerson’s The Warmth Of Suns a wonderful book about The Great Migration, explains how many black fled the South because they could no longer tolerate the nightmare that was Jim Crow, When they migrated to the North and out West they still were met with anti- black segregation and hatred where bigoted whites formed mobs to run them out of their homes and threatened their lives. Shaw doesn’t have the monopoly on being on the receiving end of the horrors of Jim Crow.
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Afrofem,
Trust I am aware of that and I notice some of his blind spots, that is why I was stressing this as a discussion. I sought to avoid going back and forth about Jim Crow because 1) that was not my focus 2) I know others have already been down that path 3) He seems to have his mind made regarding that subject manner.
His singular focus was the same about 40 Acres and a mule.
I appreciate the link.
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“Anti-black attacks don’t concern him because he hasn’t been a victim. And there in lies the rub. He reminds me of whites who live in a bubble and have no idea about the disparities of other black people in this country. And then he wants to respond with that bullshi8 Horacio Alger pull yourself up by the boot straps mess. I don’t care that he is old, I don’t respect him or any other black person with that type of mindset. He can kick rocks.
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@PF though
I said it was a deep south thing, not only in the deep south. I made reference to the city in Kansas that was burned somewhere in these comments.
For your information the majority of blacks live in the deep south and major metropolitan areas, even today. Do some research about the demographics of this nation.
I also have referred to migration from the south. You should not read more into something then is not there.
By the way it does not make any differences about what “shaw” says if he has made you aware of the subject matter!
“◎ operated only in the South. In fact, there was plenty of anti-Black segregation and humiliation in the North and out West”
Your entire comment is in a way foolish! I know very well that millions of people are aware of Jim Crow, where did you get such a foolish thought that I thought that I was the only person that knew that subject. (U R reading too narrowly)!
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@ Allen Shaw
As Mary Burrell stated so eloquently: “He can kick rocks”.
Straw man fallacies, deflections and outright falsehoods are a bore. Solitaire quoted twelve of your latest hits verbatim and you still had the nerve to deny what you had written. (Hint: on this forum, your words are written, so they are there for everyone to see.)
If you want to entertain yourself with empty “debate” and pretzel logic, you can go back to watching Judge Judy. I find her boring, too.
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My words need to be reread. The desire to bash me are so great that failure is your goal. Nothing I have said at any time states that slavery was anything but horrible; but Jim Crow was worse. The balance of the comments are misreading of my comments to please the reader.
Long before, I worked against people that denied blacks any rights. In 1949 I with other blacks integrated all white military units. You probably will say that we were Uncle Toms because you do not understand anything in reality about 1949. Actually outside of reading books you do not understand much of anything about this subject.
Respect those who came before you (Have experience) , they made your path easy!
As you set and write you do not even see the danger your are facing as more and more mass shooting are occurring. Remember the words of the Jewish people in Germany. The came and got the man down the street and I did nothing, they came and got my neighbor and I did nothing and than they came and got me. So far mass shooting have impacted Hispanics and some others.
I do see the current batch of leaders in this nation that do not tolerate any one who lived more than 50 years ago and did anything. It was wrong somehow because people today are looking out of nice fresh eyes and all they have to do is change Donald Trump and his “White Nationalist”. Easy pee-sey!
Keep your eye on the prize!
As you set in your fat comfortable chairs spitting out your hatred for the white remember. There are around 40 million blacks living in this nation, mainly living in the deep south and major populations area such as New York, Chicago and LA. There are a little more or less then 50 million Hispanics living in this nation, many who are switching to white as these conversations take place. The balance of the population of these United States are white. (See the following for an accurate 2010 report) White 223,553,265 72.4%.
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?src=CF
Sort the file:
http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/black-population/ (subtract the US government and military from states with the least blacks)
You need to review your mindset that teaches your children to hate “all white people”. You need to understand the rule of the “absolute total massive majority”!
Without the assistance of whites we would be doomed in this nation!
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On the otherhand, maybe my initial assessment was right all along…
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@ Open Minded Observer
Comments like the one at this link make me believe he is at least being honest about his age:
I get the feeling he is being honest about his race, too. Just kind of stuck in the Booker T. Washington mindset.
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Just because someone lived through a period and had a personal experience does not mean that they know what was actually going on at that time.
I have to continuously read about the things I lived through directly in order to understand what was going on. If you don’t, then you only have a personal interpretation, which may not be reflective of what was actually going on.
For example, As much as I do understand Joe Biden’s mindset about mandatory bussing to achieve desegregation (after all, I lived through it – I was in Junior High school when my district, the largest school district ever subjected to mandatory desegregation by bussing). It was enforced in January, in the middle of the school year, and there was considerable disruption, and anger and resentment from both whites and blacks.
But it was a necessary thing. 20 years of evading Brown v. Board requires the federal and state governments to step in.
And, I would say, as disruptive as it was, it was a good thing for me too. For example, I got to participate in the black extracurricular activities, something that I would not have been able to do before desegregation.
In the long term, PG county paid a big price. Another white flight hit it and the white people and businesses moved out. It went to the top of the country in police brutality. The wealthiest majority black county in the USA still cannot attract employers or businesses, despite lying right next to DC on the way to New York. And projects like National Harbor on the Potomac River are completely fenced off from the surrounding communities, with only one road to enter and exit.
Also the country moves on too. People need to take up the baton. We have a new set of problems to address in 2019 that were not contemplated in 1949.
Still, who in their right mind would think that Jim Crow was worse than chattel slavery?
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