Remarks:
This song was written in the 1950s and has been covered to death, but the best known version was done in 1992 by Cesária Évora. The style of music is coladeira and she is singing in a Cape Verdean Portuguese creole.
Sodade (saudade in Portuguese) is a deep longing for something you might never have again, in this case it is for Cape Verde itself, off the coast of West Africa.
The Cape Verdean diaspora began in the early 1800s when whalers went to New England. To this day 75% of Cape Verdean Americans still live in New England. Amber Rose, Lisa “Left Eye” Lopes, Pebbles, and Elle Varner are all of Cape Verdean descent, all born in the north-eastern US.
Thanks to Afrofem for suggesting this artist.
See also:
Lyrics:
In Cape Verdean creole (English translation follows):
Quem mostró-b’ ess caminh’ longe?
Quem mostró-b’ ess caminh’ longe?
Ess caminh’ pa Sã Tomé
Sodade, oi,
Sodade
Sodade, d’ ess nha terra di Sã Nic’lau
Si bô ‘screvê-me, m’ ta ‘screvê-be
Si bô ‘squecê-me, m’ ta ‘squecê-be
Até dia qui bô voltâ
In English:
Who showed you this distant path?
Who showed you this distant path?
This path to São Tomé
Sodade, oh,
Sodade
Sodade, of my homeland of São Nicolau
If you write me, I’ll write you
If you forget me, I’ll forget you
‘Till the day you come back
Source: Wikipedia.
@ Abagond
Wow! Thanks for this post on Cesária Évora.
What struck me most about the video is the sense of relaxation on the stage. Everyone was so well rehearsed and masters of their craft that they made the music seem effortless.
Cesária Évora takes a cigarette and beverage break in the middle of the song. I haven’t seen an American artist do that in years.
One of my favorite songs is “Roma Criola” (Creole Rome), where she describes the glory and the decadence of Cape Verde during its height as a Portuguese colony.
I could only find one video of the song with a single image and no English translations.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9UStNAwt9s)
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Abagond, thanks for this post on Cesária Évora. For a change we have a look on the non-English speaking countries and communities.
A few thoughts:
— Cesária Évora, was known as a diva dos pés descalços (bare-feet diva) because she oft stand on stage with bare-feet!;
— Cesária Évora, is considered the top representative of Cape Verdean culture despite the fact that its main interpretations belong mainly to morna, which is only one of the various creole musical genres of Cape Verde;
— Cesária Évora became internationally acclaimed late in her life, being already then 47 years old, but managed to go to the top and record a fair number of songs;
— the Cape Verdean culture is a mix of Portuguese and African influences being the former the dominant ones; if you are acquainted with popular Portuguese songs and folklore you can easily spot the connections to some of the Cape Verdean cultural expressions.
Post scriptum:
By the way, the creole word sodade, or the Portuguese equivalent saudade can be translated in English to nostalgia. The Portuguese musical genre, fado, is oft describe as an expression of saudade too!
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A lot of Cape Verdeans worked in the cranberry bogs too. (You know, these: http://www.jeannestraveladventures.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/cranberry-bog.jpg)
The Cape Verdeans were some of the first voluntary Black migrants to New England. They blazed a trail for the Brazilians, Dominicans, Haitians, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Liberians, Nigerians, Ghanaians, Kenyans, Ethiopians, Somalians, and many more who have come since.
A lot of these immigrants have earned college degrees and/or started their own businesses. Many work at universities, hospitals, and tech companies. They have also enriched our region with their ethnic restaurants, markets, and festivals. These people often work harder than native-born New Englanders.
It has been good for the White people of Greater Boston to see that not all Black people are the descendents of Southern sharecroppers who moved to Roxbury, lol. Many West Indians and Africans love Anglo culture even more than Bostonians/New Englanders do. It’s a much better cultural match than the sharecroppers were, which has contributed to a lessening of racism.
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@ Paige
Paige, pay attention to what you write because your words can be interpreted as meaning that West Indians and Africans were/are better than the so-called Southern sharecroppers and their descendants!
In my understanding, it’s more likely that Bostonians/New Englanders treated differently the different groups of Blacks and therefore those behaved and ultimately scored differently in life. Simply, I can’t visualize that a human group, given the opportunities, would not jump on them and extract from them all benefits possible for themselves. If the results are less bright, I think, something wasn’t there, to start with.
But I’m not an American citizen, so, maybe I’m missing something in the big picture.
But I would agree with you that the existence of different Black groups with different social attitudes ultimately contributed to a lessening of racism.
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@ Paige
It has been good for the White people of Greater Boston to see that not all Black people are the descendents of Southern sharecroppers who moved to Roxbury, lol.
Many West Indians and Africans love Anglo culture even more than Bostonians/New Englanders do. It’s a much better cultural match than the sharecroppers….”
Boston’s Black community has deep roots that predate the “Southern sharecroppers”. According to Slave North:
http://slavenorth.com/massachusetts.htm
It would seem that the White people of Greater Boston need to learn more of their own region’s history. Boston was no paradise for the Black people who endured centuries of pain before the vaunted Cape Verdean, Afro-Caribbean and African transplants made the region their home.
Since I am the granddaughter of Southern sharecroppers, I can assure you that they worked as hard as anyone else in this country. They had to just to survive.
They may not have had the fanfare of your celebrated immigrants, but without the political and economic contributions of Southern sharecroppers, those Black immigrants would have landed in a very different America with fewer opportunities to work in universities, hospitals, and tech companies.
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The best singers from Africa. In my opinion, of course.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPTDpQ66rwc)
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@Paige: Shaking my head at your misguided post that is an insult to black sharecroppers who worked to build this country. Your words were ignorant and insulting.
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@Paige: Also know that those immigrants are standing on the shoulders of those black American sharecroppers so they could enjoy the privileges they have today.
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I seem to remember the black residents of Roxbury being at the forefront of the protests against de facto segregation and unequal accommodation in the Boston public school system.
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Saudade: Is on my favorite new words list that i learned over the Summer. A feeling of longing, characteristic of the Portuguese or Brazilian temperament. Seeing this YouTube video of Cesaria Evora helps to understand this definition.
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Okay, I think I chose bad, vague wording. I’m sorry that my comment could be interpreted as me saying Southern sharecroppers were worse people than the current immigrants. I don’t actually believe that.
First of all, I know that all people are born equal. Secondly, the two groups (which are diverse in and of themselves) share a lot of the same genes and even some of the same cultural traits. I also know that slaves, sharecroppers, and their descendants worked extremely hard and benefited society with their labor.
What I was trying to say is that some groups are a better automatic cultural match for Boston/New England. Thus, it is easier for them to assimilate and avoid racism. People who haven’t come from a recent slave background seem to fit in better, probably in large part because they haven’t been as oppressed. The immigrants seem to have more agency and more enthusiasm for the culture they’re joining. Also, as I mentioned, racism has lessened, which makes it easier for them to assimilate. I should have made myself more clear on those points.
I do know that Massachusetts had slavery until 1783, but the amount of Black people in Boston went up dramatically in the 20th century (the number doubled in a twenty-year period alone). I certainly never said that Boston was a paradise for slaves.
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So all someone has to do to avoid racism is assimilate to the dominant culture???
Not much of a leap from there to concluding that racism only exists because POC don’t assimilate and therefore any racism they experience must be their own fault….
Paige, in what ways didn’t the Southern blacks fit into Boston culture?
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Where has anyone in black skin of African descent been able to avoid racism much less assimilate into the dominant culture? Seriously, still shaking my head.
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@Paige
When I first read your original comment, I was immediately reminded of the Chris Rock bit from the 90’s, where he was comparing and contrasting Black people vs…
After reading your clarification and re-reading your original comment, I can see that you were really trying to say that immigrants, and their descendants that come to this country deliberately have an easier time assimilating than slaves and their descendants… those brought against their will. Your observation that willing immigrants are more willing to embrace the dominant culture than people kidnapped from their homeland is probably not entirely incorrect.
As for the theory that assimilation reduces racism… That’s the whole “melting pot” idea that White people love so much. Why wouldn’t the dominant culture love a concept that prioritizes their comfort and puts any need for change, compromise and accommodation onto someone else? Personally, I think a multi-cultural United States, one that truly embraces and values variety over conformity would be amazing and I see the whole “go along to get along” mentality as further enabling the dominant culture’s laziness and privilege.
Again, your observations are probably not wrong.. I just don’t see them as a positive. I think “less racism” is still racism and even if Whites truly are less racist towards Black people that actively strive to make them more comfortable i.e. assimilating, it’s not a solution. White folks have been distinguishing between “the good ones and the uppity ones” for centuries and the problem isn’t the perceived ratio between the two. The problem is that the comparison exists in the first place. Which brings me back around to Chris Rock and why I never thought that particular bit was funny.
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“People who haven’t come from a recent slave background seem to fit in better, probably in large part because they haven’t been as oppressed. The immigrants seem to have more agency and more enthusiasm for the culture they’re joining.”
When African descent people were legally emancipated in the US, they had plenty of agency and enthusiasm. They started farms, businesses and schools. A few started factories that employed Black and White labor. They helped build physical infrastructure (roads, bridges and railroads) as wage laborers. By 1910, those former slaves owned and controlled over 15 million acres of land, representing 14 percent of all US farms (at 10 percent or less of the population of that time).
https://www.thenation.com/article/african-americans-have-lost-acres/
This was also a time of unceasing violence and terror against Black communities by representatives of the State and quasi-state organizations like the KKK. Black people, no matter their assets or contributions to local communities were pushed out of political life, shut out of civil life, physically and socially isolated from majority society. It was not uncommon for Black families to be banished from whole counties in the South and Midwest. Their property was stolen and they were driven from their home by violence. Those counties are White-only to this day.
By the 1920s, many Black families were fed up enough with the violence and repression in the South. They moved North and West seeking opportunity and respite from the terror of the South. What they found in Northern states was intense segregation, police brutality and sundown towns. There was even fierce resistance to Black-owned places of leisure (beaches, resorts, sports venues, hotels and nightclubs) that fell outside of the tiny confines of rigidly segregated Black neighborhoods in cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Oakland and Seattle.
Over a 150 years of pushing a group of people away and terrorizing them has consequences:
☛ they become deeply traumatized.
☛ they develop a pretty negative view of the people who mistreat them.
☛ they develop their own culture as a matter of necessity.
If descendants of “Southern sharecroppers” are less enthusiastic of New England culture (however that is defined), it is because they know who they are dealing with due to centuries of negative interactions. Their reluctance to “joining” is quite understandable given their history.
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@Afrofem: Great rebuttal it pays for black descendant of slaves in America to read and learn our history for ourselves. It’s like that public service announcement “The More You Know”…..
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First of all, I want to mention how much I appreciate the fact that we can have a civil discussion like this. In too many corners of the Internet, a conversation of this kind would have turned nasty long ago.
@ Solitaire
“So all someone has to do to avoid racism is assimilate to the dominant culture???
Not much of a leap from there to concluding that racism only exists because POC don’t assimilate and therefore any racism they experience must be their own fault….”
I know that racism, xenophobia, and bigotry still exist even when people try their best to assimilate. Many immigrant groups over the years have noticed that unfortunate truth.
“Paige, in what ways didn’t the Southern blacks fit into Boston culture?”
I think Blacks didn’t fit into Boston culture in many of the same ways that new immigrants from Europe or Asia didn’t immediately fit in either. They were often poorer, less educated, came from traditions of less self-determination, and/or had a worse understanding of local social norms. Every newcomer group has had to face those factors and decide how to respond.
@ Mary Burrell
“Where has anyone in black skin of African descent been able to avoid racism much less assimilate into the dominant culture? Seriously, still shaking my head.”
As I was just saying to Solitaire, unfortunately I don’t think they’ve ever been able to completely avoid racism. However, the current immigrant groups are definitely beginning to assimilate. It’s not particularly unusual for White people in my area to have Black immigrant neighbors, friends, partners, coworkers, and/or bosses. Some are much more successful than the average White person.
@ Open Minded Observer
“After reading your clarification and re-reading your original comment, I can see that you were really trying to say that immigrants, and their descendants that come to this country deliberately have an easier time assimilating than slaves and their descendants… those brought against their will. Your observation that willing immigrants are more willing to embrace the dominant culture than people kidnapped from their homeland is probably not entirely incorrect.”
Yes, that’s more like what I should have said from the start.
“As for the theory that assimilation reduces racism… That’s the whole ‘melting pot’ idea that White people love so much. Why wouldn’t the dominant culture love a concept that prioritizes their comfort and puts any need for change, compromise and accommodation onto someone else? Personally, I think a multi-cultural United States, one that truly embraces and values variety over conformity would be amazing and I see the whole ‘go along to get along’ mentality as further enabling the dominant culture’s laziness and privilege.”
I’m a big fan of variety in the relatively superficial aspects of different cultures (cuisine, clothing, houses of worship, music, language, skin color, facial features, etc.) Those factors help make life interesting and don’t harm the community. However, I do not think New England should give up its positive values (like its love of education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence) regardless of how many immigrants come settle here. After all, those values helped create the high quality of life that attracts so many immigrants today. Most White people’s ancestors also adapted to the dominant culture. Unity is necessary to the commUNITY, and it should ideally be based on dependable values rather than more trivial cultural factors.
“Again, your observations are probably not wrong.. I just don’t see them as a positive. I think ‘less racism’ is still racism and even if Whites truly are less racist towards Black people that actively strive to make them more comfortable i.e. assimilating, it’s not a solution. White folks have been distinguishing between ‘the good ones and the uppity ones’ for centuries and the problem isn’t the perceived ratio between the two. The problem is that the comparison exists in the first place.”
Are you talking about a comparison based on superficial aspects of culture, as opposed to values? If so, I agree with you.
@ Afrofem
“When African descent people were legally emancipated in the US, they had plenty of agency and enthusiasm. They started farms, businesses and schools. A few started factories that employed Black and White labor. They helped build physical infrastructure (roads, bridges and railroads) as wage laborers. By 1910, those former slaves owned and controlled over 15 million acres of land, representing 14 percent of all US farms (at 10 percent or less of the population of that time).
https://www.thenation.com/article/african-americans-have-lost-acres/
This was also a time of unceasing violence and terror against Black communities by representatives of the State and quasi-state organizations like the KKK. Black people, no matter their assets or contributions to local communities were pushed out of political life, shut out of civil life, physically and socially isolated from majority society. It was not uncommon for Black families to be banished from whole counties in the South and Midwest. Their property was stolen and they were driven from their home by violence. Those counties are White-only to this day.
By the 1920s, many Black families were fed up enough with the violence and repression in the South. They moved North and West seeking opportunity and respite from the terror of the South. What they found in Northern states was intense segregation, police brutality and sundown towns. There was even fierce resistance to Black-owned places of leisure (beaches, resorts, sports venues, hotels and nightclubs) that fell outside of the tiny confines of rigidly segregated Black neighborhoods in cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Cleveland, Chicago, St. Louis, Los Angeles, Oakland and Seattle.
Over a 150 years of pushing a group of people away and terrorizing them has consequences:
☛ they become deeply traumatized.
☛ they develop a pretty negative view of the people who mistreat them.
☛ they develop their own culture as a matter of necessity.
If descendants of ‘Southern sharecroppers’ are less enthusiastic of New England culture (however that is defined), it is because they know who they are dealing with due to centuries of negative interactions. Their reluctance to ‘joining’ is quite understandable given their history.”
Yes, I understand where the problem comes from. The fact that many immigrants from places like Ghana, Nigeria, Jamaica, and Trinidad are doing well in New England today shows that there is nothing inherent about people of West African descent that prevents them from uniting with the dominant culture. I think the problems in places like Roxbury are largely the result of extensive slavery and segregation (well, and maybe gentrification now, but that’s a whole ‘nother controversial discussion).
My hope is that the mostly benign interactions between White native-born New Englanders and Black immigrants help to heal the racial divide that has prevented many native-born Black people from uniting with the culture that dominates their region. I don’t want people to remain traumatized and have negative views of their home.
I will note that some Black people from Roxbury have an almost surprisingly fierce devotion to Boston/New England, despite the cultural trauma that they come from. I say “almost surprisingly fierce” because pretty much everyone from Greater Boston has a fierce devotion to the city, so I’m not THAT surprised. 😉 This video is a good example of what I’m talking about:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHj-Og_YZDo)
Thanks again for the civil tone of the conversation. Also, thanks to Abagond for creating a blog that encourages these types of interesting discussions.
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@ Paige
“I think Blacks didn’t fit into Boston culture in many of the same ways that new immigrants from Europe or Asia didn’t immediately fit in either. They were often poorer, less educated….”
It sounds like you’re saying that non-immigrant white Bostonians all maintain(ed) a certain level of wealth and education. I find it difficult to believe that there was and is no native-born white underclass in Boston.
Furthermore, there was a concentrated effort by the white establishment to keep the descendants of those black southerner migrants poorly educated by segregating them into substandard public schools.
“…came from traditions of less self-determination”
Such as?
“However, the current immigrant groups are definitely beginning to assimilate. It’s not particularly unusual for White people in my area to have Black immigrant neighbors, friends, partners, coworkers, and/or bosses.”
Is it unusual for white people in your area to have black non-immigrant neighbors, friends, partners, coworkers, and/or bosses?
“Some are much more successful than the average White person.”
In what ways does someone’s level of success matter? Is this somehow key to acceptance and assimilation into Boston/New England?
“Most White people’s ancestors also adapted to the dominant culture.”
No, they didn’t. If they had, we wouldn’t be conversing in English right now.
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@ Paige
“…came from traditions of less self-determination”
I agree with Solitaire. Clarify which “traditions” encouraged less self-determination?
From my perspective, any group of people who exited hereditary bondage with no education or money and managed to purchase and maintain over 15 million acres of farmland and woodlands in just under two generations has an extremely strong tradition of self-determination.
Many Black people in the South were basically running away from sustained violent attacks in part because they were too “self-determined”.
Within (native born) Black communities throughout the US, the ideal of self-determination constitutes a sort of holy grail. Black people still struggle to control their own communities and destinies against the machinations of White commercial and political interests.
For example, when US cities reach a certain concentration of Black citizens, White state politicians will seize control of lucrative assets like airports, seaports, water systems and school districts. They call these thefts, “regionalization”. The purpose of regionalization is to prevent cities with large Black populations from utilizing the revenues from those assets to create self-determined structures that benefit city residents.
Detroit and Newark, NJ are prime examples of this process. Both cities had their assets like water systems and ports regionalized. The resulting lack of revenues created budget shortfalls that impacted city services.
In the media, the downward spiral of those cities is described as due to incompetent or corrupt city officials. What is almost never examined is the role of state officials who basically stole the assets of those cities to prevent too much “self determination” by the Black population.
The majority Black city of Jackson, MS is also fighting to hold on to their airport. in 2016, White state senator, Josh Harkins, proposed a “regionalization of the airport to wrest control of that asset from Jackson to the state of Mississippi. According to the Jackson Free Press:
http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2016/feb/03/unfriendly-skies-can-jackson-save-its-airport/
When Black people want to exercise self-determination, they are labeled “identity extremists” who want to establish unacceptable “autonomous black social institutions, communities”. When other people exercise self-determination, they are just normal Americans.
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I’m on a phone today, but I’ll do my best.
@Solitaire
“It sounds like you’re saying that non-immigrant white Bostonians all maintain(ed) a certain level of wealth and education. I find it difficult to believe that there was and is no native-born white underclass in Boston.”
Most immigrants were and are poorer than most native-born New Englanders. That’s why I said “often” (but not “all”).
“Furthermore, there was a concentrated effort by the white establishment to keep the descendants of those black southerner migrants poorly educated by segregating them into substandard public schools.”
Yes, I know about segregation. Thankfully, that kind of “Jim Crow lite” racism seems to have faded somewhat.
“Such as?”
Self-determination: “the right of the people of a particular place to choose the form of government they will have: the freedom to make your own choices”. I think most cultures that migrants have come from have had less self-determination than New England, land of the town meeting and birthplace of the American Revolution/modern-day democracy.
“Is it unusual for white people in your area to have black non-immigrant neighbors, friends, partners, coworkers, and/or bosses?”
It seems more unusual for Black people from places like Roxbury to assimilate than for Black immigrants to do so.
“In what ways does someone’s level of success matter? Is this somehow key to acceptance and assimilation into Boston/New England?”
Academic, professional, financial, and social success certainly helps people to be accepted.
“No, they didn’t. If they had, we wouldn’t be conversing in English right now.”
Most White people’s ancestors weren’t WASPs but later immigrants, so they did assimilate. We’re not conversing in Gaelic, Italian, French, etc.
@Afrofem
“I agree with Solitaire. Clarify which ‘traditions’ encouraged less self-determination?”
Please see what I wrote to Solitaire above.
“For example, when US cities reach a certain concentration of Black citizens, White state politicians will seize control of lucrative assets like airports, seaports, water systems and school districts. They call these thefts, “regionalization”. The purpose of regionalization is to prevent cities with large Black populations from utilizing the revenues from those assets to create self-determined structures that benefit city residents.
Detroit and Newark, NJ are prime examples of this process. Both cities had their assets like water systems and ports regionalized. The resulting lack of revenues created budget shortfalls that impacted city services.”
Those are good examples of why New England’s municipal management of services is preferable to regionalization. Metro Boston is divided into dozens of different towns that haven’t merged, because to do so would diminish their self-determination.
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@ Paige
“Most immigrants were and are poorer than most native-born New Englanders.”
“Academic, professional, financial, and social success certainly helps people to be accepted.”
Would you say there is a high degree of class prejudice in New England, then?
“It seems more unusual for Black people from places like Roxbury to assimilate than for Black immigrants to do so.”
Why?
“Most White people’s ancestors weren’t WASPs but later immigrants, so they did assimilate. We’re not conversing in Gaelic, Italian, French, etc.”
I was talking about those WASPs. They did not assimilate to the dominant culture when they first arrived in 1620.
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I’m very tempted to comment here on this whole thread, but I want to get it together and actually have a cogent statement to make.
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@ Paige
Based on the comments you have made on this thread, there seems to be broad assumptions on on your part that:
🌀 New England is “God’s Country” and the rest of the country is composed of unwashed peasants who drum in the woods/plains/deserts for fun. Not only are the “Southern sharecroppers” and their descendants not making the requisite effort to assimilate into New England democracy, but White people from the Mid-Atlantic Seaboard, the South, the Great Plains, the Mountain states, the Southwest and the Pacific coast don’t make the cut either.
That is a boatload full of regional chauvinism. For the record, values such as, “love of education, self-determination, and reform…” are fairly universal outside of New England and the USA.
🌀 Native born Black Americans want to “assimilate” in to any other culture other than their own richly textured culture.
From my perspective, Black American culture is one of several creative engines for general American culture. It is certainly treated as a valuable international export item by media and entertainment firms.
Moreover, many Black people feel that “assimilation/integration is not the best way forward. Dr. Martin Luther King expressed it best in a conversation with Harry Belafonte when he said:
What native born Black folk want most of all is equality of opportunity. That is no different from the throngs of immigrants whom you hold in such high regard.
🌀 “Assimilation” lessens White bigotry, bias and prejudice. Assimilation soothes White people at everyone else’s expense. However, the essential malady of White racism remains untreated because the majority of White people are unwilling to do the hard work of opening their hearts and minds to other people.
🌀 Racism and inequality are historical curiosities. Your comment, “Thankfully, that kind of “Jim Crow lite” racism seems to have faded somewhat” comes off as tone deaf considering the rising tide of hostility, violence and neglect Black people, Latinx people and Muslims are facing in this historical moment.
I wonder, do you read Abagond’s posts and the comments, or do you just drop in to make pronouncements? If you actually read the posts and comments you would pick up on the growing anguish, concern and fears of Black American citizens.
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https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2014/05/19/segregation-ended-years-ago-how-come-getting-worse/qbvuqM0yLcWrNObVlMC6zH/story.html
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https://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/research/k-12-education/integration-and-diversity/losing-ground-school-segregation-in-massachusetts
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Well, maybe not. A couple things: although white american culture may appear monolithic, (and i don’t mean ‘treat me as an individual’), one can see what could readily be defined as ‘ethnic’ groupings evinced as ‘polish-american’, ‘italian-american’ et al ‘social clubs’ and obviously neighborhoods as a tacitly divisive or exclusive, but not necessarily antagonistic thing. In re: ‘assimilating culture’ i would like to know what you all consider this to be like the inverse of me (if i had hair) growing dreads or getting cornrows, but i will still defer to malcolm x on this one, any type of deference, i would see as generally being expected or to be treated in a patronizing manner. In an extreme example i wouldnt bring my wife to kentucky, just because. Sorry waiting on a bus now but im feelin swept up obviously…
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Personally, i think it’s kind of cool to see a black person out in the hood with a metallica or nirvana shirt on, i’m not really sure where appreciation creeps into appropriation.
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I’m on my phone again. I’m going to just respond without quoting this time.
I would say there is some degree of class prejudice in New England, but I don’t think there’s any more than in most other places. In fact, I would guess that there’s less than in some places, since flaunting wealth is generally discouraged here. I think our biggest form of snobbery may be based on level of education, which is related to social class but not synonymous with it. Instead of fearing the educated elite here, we may tend towards admiring them a bit more than they deserve.
As for why native-born Black people don’t seem to be assimilating as much as Black immigrants, I will say again that I think it has a lot to do with the extensive slavery and segregation that many native-born Black American families have faced. Also, like I was saying before, I don’t think any group should have to assimilate in terms of superficial cultural traits (though it is important for the greater community to be united in its values).
I love New England and its culture. I think it has done a lot for the US and the world in terms of politics, literature, science, technology, and other fields. That doesn’t mean I believe New England/Massachusetts/Greater Boston is perfect and the rest of the world is full of unwashed savages or whatever.
I think I’ve been reading Abagond’s blog for almost five years now, plus I interact with people of several different races and ethnicities on a frequent basis. I have traveled to other regions of the US as well as to other countries. I appreciate the beautiful variety of human cultures, which is one reason why I welcome immigrants. I also see how racism and inequality are far from historical curiosities; unfortunately, they still affect many different areas worldwide (including New England).
If you don’t like New England or just don’t care about it, that’s fine. I’m not trying to make you move here; it’s best for communities to consist of enthusiastic participants. I just enjoy opportunities to offer information about my region, like by commenting on this post that discussed Cape Verdeans in New England. I thought it was relevant to mention other Black immigrant groups and their accomplishments.
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@ Paige
Ok, I’m just going to make one observation and I don’t particularly care if you reply to it, just think about it.
I asked: “Is it unusual for white people in your area to have black non-immigrant neighbors, friends, partners, coworkers, and/or bosses?”
Your response: “It seems more unusual for Black people from places like Roxbury to assimilate than for Black immigrants to do so.”
My observation: That appears to put the onus entirely on the black people of places like Roxbury. White people don’t have friends and neighbors and coworkers out of the non-immigrant black population because black people haven’t assimilated — after, what? sixty-something years after the big wave of migration from the South began?
And you blame that lack of assimilation on the effects of southern slavery and southern segregation, plus a heavy implication that they have a substandard work ethic and a substandard regard for education compared to the norm for your region.
I don’t see you examining the possibility that the white people of Boston and New England themselves contribute to this state of affairs.
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@Paige
“Are you talking about a comparison based on superficial aspects of culture, as opposed to values?”
“I’m a big fan of variety in the relatively superficial aspects of different cultures (cuisine, clothing, houses of worship, music, language, skin color, facial features, etc.)” … “I do not think New England should give up its positive values (like its love of education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence)”…
So, I guess I did misunderstand you. Yes, I was discussing what you considered to be the superficial aspects of culture because I took for granted what you differentiate as “positive values”. Am I to understand that when you describe assimilation you’re referring to the group’s ability to embrace a love of education, self-determination and reform grounded in historical precedence? If so, I’m very curious about how you see slave-descendant groups displaying a lack of desire to embrace those things.
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@Afrofem:
The truth will out.
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@ Herneith
Yes. This thread contains some valuable lessons. When the last New England chauvinist drove many to distraction, I was not there to witness or participate in the fruitless effort to present cogent arguments to that person.
It is fascinating to observe the level of self-absorption and deflection that occurs with self-identified representatives of that group that comment here. The wilful ignorance and projection of bigotry onto their fellow Euro-Americans who reside in other regions is almost comical. From what, I’ve read and heard, anti-Black racism in New England is just as virulent as anything in the South.
Another lesson is processing the use of the “assimilation” argument as a means of dodging White behavior and responsibility. At the core of the “assimilation” argument is the notion that if “those Negros would just act more like us and behave, we might like them more.” Black immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa seem to be used as model minority wedges in this variation of the argument.
It never occurs to the persons who employ this specious argument that Black people have their own culture and historical memory. Black people want their self-determination to benefit them, their children and their community.
Self-determination starts with self-definition. Black people have to prioritize what is important to them. It is okay if those priorities don’t mesh with other peoples priorities. What is important is that Black people no longer face violence and artificial constraints in pursuing self-defined priorities.
The phrase “where there’s smoke, there’s fire”, seems appropriate here. I will have to be more mindful of the sound of fire engines in the future.
Lesson learned.
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@ Solitaire
Good points.
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@ Afrofem
“Black people want their self-determination to benefit them, their children and their community.”
Paige and I had a similar disagreement a few months ago on the Open Thread about self-determination and autonomy for Native Hawaiians.
One stumbling block for many white people is the idea that we may have to make sacrifices if justice and equality are to be achieved. We need to let other populations make decisions about their own welfare even if those decisions will affect us in ways we might not like — the same way we’ve been making decisions that impact them for so long.
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I see a lot of obtuseness and deflection in Paige’s posts and using the words “self- determination” i find her post insulting and condescending. So now we have another version on LOM. So do those descendants of African American slaves not have self determination. The tone of Paige’s post reminds me of whites that say to immigrant blacks “You are not like those other blacks.” And whites do say this to immigrant blacks, we need to have a post about the chasm between immigrant blacks and black descendants of slaves.
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*So do those descendants of African American slaves and those blacks whose blood, sweat, tears who labored under oppression not have self determination?
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@ Solitaire
Actually, I did say that there is still racism in New England.
@ Open Minded Observer
“I’m very curious about how you see slave-descendant groups displaying a lack of desire to embrace those things.”
I don’t know if they have a lack of desire, although Afrofem seems to think many of them don’t want to assimilate. What I’ve noticed is that they don’t seem to assimilate as much, whether most of them actually want to or not.
@ Mary Burrell
I was talking about slave descendants of the past not being as used to self-determination as WASPs were, similar to many immigrant groups. They hadn’t had much opportunity to govern themselves.
@ everybody
I want to reiterate that just because I love New England, that doesn’t mean that I think it’s perfect or that everywhere else is terrible. It’s like how just because you love your family, that doesn’t mean that you think they’re perfect or that everyone else’s family is terrible. You probably love your family more than you love anyone else’s family, but that’s as it should be. You might even be somewhat blind to your family’s faults, which is the flipside of loyalty.
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@ Solitaire
“We need to let other populations make decisions about their own welfare even if those decisions will affect us in ways we might not like…”
That is the price of living with others as equals. You don’t automatically get your way. The upside is that the irrational fear that some Euro-Americans have would fade because perceived threats from “darker others” would fade.
I think adult, reality-based relationships are good antidotes to the irrational color caste system that exists now.
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@Paige
” What I’ve noticed is that they don’t seem to assimilate as much, whether most of them actually want to or not.”
Can you help me understand what you mean by “assimilate: in that sentence?
Does it mean:
1) Adapting to the superficial aspects of the dominant culture (cuisine, clothing, houses of worship, music, language, skin color, facial features, etc.)
— or —
2) Embracing the positive values of New England (like its love of education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence)
If it means #1, then we agreed up-thread that even if that leads to reduced racism, it does so only because it simply placates the dominate culture and that wasn’t a good thing. We also agreed that not assimilating the superficial aspects of culture creates a better and more interesting society. In which case, racism is the issue, and assimilation (as defined by #1) is not a solution or even of any benefit.
If it means #2, then I’m still not getting it. Can you break it down for me? I’m asking for your personal opinion because I’m engaging with you, not all of New England. Happy to read how your environment influenced those opinions though.
Love of Education:
Do you think they do not love education or that something is preventing them from achieving the same level of education in spite of their desire?
Self-determination:
Do you think they do not wish to be involved in their own governance or that something is preventing them from being involved in spite of their desire?
Reform grounded in historical precedence:
Do you think that they do not seek reform, that they seek reform not grounded in historical precedence or that they seek different reforms because the historical precedence provides a different perspective for them, however something is preventing them from accomplishing those reforms in spite of their desire?
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@ Open Minded Observer
By “assimilate” I mean “embracing the positive values of New England (like its love of education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence).”
“Love of Education:
Do you think they do not love education or that something is preventing them from achieving the same level of education in spite of their desire?
Self-determination:
Do you think they do not wish to be involved in their own governance or that something is preventing them from being involved in spite of their desire?
Reform grounded in historical precedence:
Do you think that they do not seek reform, that they seek reform not grounded in historical precedence or that they seek different reforms because the historical precedence provides a different perspective for them, however something is preventing them from accomplishing those reforms in spite of their desire?”
I honestly don’t know for sure, but I suspect there’s a combination of factors going on. I have heard that some descendants of American slaves fear that becoming educated or getting involved in politics will make them seem like they’re acting too “White”. However, I’m sure that many of them would love to do better but struggle with issues like poverty and racism. Black immigrants (and their descendants) also often face poverty and racism, but do not generally seem to fear acting “White” (in terms of being educated and politically motivated, which of course are not uniquely White traits or even uniquely New England ones).
I appreciate your thoughtful replies.
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@Paige
” I have heard that some descendants of American slaves fear that becoming educated or getting involved in politics will make them seem like they’re acting too “White”.”
Have you really though? I have heard that same sentiment expressed by other Whites but I’ve never once heard, or read, any firsthand account of someone actively working against education, self-determination, or reform for any reason, much less a fear of being “too White”. In fact, the opposite sentiment has been expressed by others upthread. Certainly the idea of being an “Uncle Tom” does exist in some context (a truly misapplied name by the way), but, I think that sort of thing is hijacked and deliberately misinterpreted in an effort to further the perception you now have.
So, if I can be so bold as to give you some homework, consider your sources, consider why you have this perception, where it originated, how it has grown into something you believe to be true. Basically, either turn “I have heard” into something you can truly support with firsthand examples or accept that maybe “I have heard” is simply the product of the steady drumbeat of subtle racist perceptions you’ve been fed your entire life so far.
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@Paige: You are very narrow minded you are just as bad as the virulent white racist that use the n-word.
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@ Paige
In your opinion, what level of education and career success does someone need to reach to be considered assimilated into the Boston/Massachusetts/New England culture?
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@ Open Minded Observer
http://www.vivala.com/identity/you-cant-act-white/5085
Here is an interesting article about “acting White” that was written by a Black Latina woman. She notes that Obama mentioned the concept in a speech, and she also refers to a couple of studies about it.
@ Solitaire
I think assimilation is a gradual process with no clearly-defined finish line, but there are some achievements that usually signify assimilation/unification with the mainstream New England culture. Immigrants graduating high school (or earning a GED) is a good sign, and going to college or even getting advanced degrees is an even stronger indicator of assimilation. Getting hired (or starting one’s own business) is important, and most people with college degrees should be able to work at a white-collar job eventually. Being able to speak Standard English at a conversational level or higher is usually necessary; in some jobs, an advanced command of the language is crucial.
Basically, I think there’s a spectrum that stretches from “fresh off the plane” to “completely assimilated in all significant ways”. Once again, it’s important to note that giving up superficial aspects of one’s birth culture is not necessary: many families of Irish descent still identify as Catholic, many families of Italian descent still celebrate the Feast of the Seven Fishes, many families of Chinese descent who speak English still send their kids to Chinese school on the weekends, etc. I’m sure that as the years pass, many families of Somalian descent will continue to identify as Muslim, many families of Dominican descent will continue to celebrate The Day of the Three Kings, many families of Jamaican descent who speak English will continue to listen to music sung in Patois, etc. None of those cultural differences negatively affect New England’s standards of living. In fact, as I believe I said before, that kind of diversity makes life more interesting.
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@Paige
Thanks for the link. Lots of reading there. Did you read those studies?
The first one is a scan of a typed document, so, I’m not going to quote it because that would mean re-typing.. but did you read any of it? Granted, it’s over 30 years old, so obviously some things have changed. It does acknowledge that “acting White” is a concept. What it doesn’t do is point to that concept as a primary force that prevents assimilation as you’ve defined it. In fact, it tends to describe it as part of an adaptation to all of the other external factors that restrict assimilation (what we call structural racism).
The second one builds on the work of the first, 20 years later, and came to the following conclusion:
” For nearly twenty years, there has been a debate among social scientists on the extent and potential impact of racial differences in peer sanctions often referred to as ‘acting white.’ The consensus gentium is: (1) ‘acting white’ does not exist in nationally representative samples, and (2) to the extent that it is discernible in data, it is concentrated in low-income minority schools. This paper demonstrates that an additional set of facts points in a very different direction due to an adjusted definition of academic achievement. There is, however, a crucial point of agreement. We, like Ferguson (2001), Cook and
Ludwig (1997), and Ainsworth-Darnell and Downey (1998), find scant empirical support for the oppositional culture hypothesis described in Fordham and Ogbu (1986).”
So, you’ve pointed me to an article written by a POC that doesn’t believe in the concept and thinks that, to the extent that it exists, it should stop. The article includes a quote from President Obama where he calls the concept “slander”. We can assume he didn’t fail to assimilate for fear of acting White right? The article references 2 studies that, when combined, would seem to indicate that the concept exists, but is not a significant impediment to the overall assimilation of Black people and in fact is simply a response the overwhelming impact of structural racism. That same article also linked to videos that seemed to further contradict the idea that “fear of acting White” is what prevents assimilation. I’m sorry, I know my circles are limited, but in those circles, in this very thread an din the article you’ve linked, I’m just finding more and more reasons not to believe that a fear of “acting White” is impeding love of education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence.
Again, I’m not saying the concept doesn’t exist… but seriously, don’t you find it suspiciously convenient? After all, it sure is easier on the White conscience if we can point to “fear of acting White” as a rationale. Pretty much a variation of the bootstraps myth if you ask me.
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@ Paige
Thank you for the detailed reply. I wasn’t asking solely in regards to immigrants, however.
What would you consider to be signs of assimilation in regards to the population of native-born Bostonians who are descendants of black migrants from the South?
For example, consider a person who has graduated high school and gained steady employment as a bus driver, a short-order cook, or a cashier at a grocery store. Would this be a sufficient level of educational attainment, career success, and achievement for this descendant of sharecroppers to be considered assimilated into mainstream New England culture?
Or would it be necessary for someone from this specific population to graduate from college and work in a white-collar job to be considered fully assimilated into mainstream New England culture?
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@ Open Minded Observer
Well, this is interesting. John Ogbu, the coauthor of the 1984 article, is also the Nigerian immigrant and U.S. professor who proposed the theory of voluntary and involuntary minorities.
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Sorry, 1986.
“Ludwig (1997), and Ainsworth-Darnell and Downey (1998), find scant empirical support for the oppositional culture hypothesis described in Fordham and Ogbu (1986).”
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@Solitaire
Thank you! It’ll take me a bit to get through all the comments on that thread and the linked threads and everywhere else it leads… I should have known there was a treasure trove of info and discussion already here on Abagond’s blog.
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@ Open Minded Observer
Myself likewise concerning all the links you pointed out in the Vivala article.
I found a Wiki article on “acting white” that has an overview of academic findings in the subsection entitled Case Studies and Research.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white
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And of course it turns out that Abagond did a post on this years ago!
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@ Solitaire: And if you go back to the thread you will see my post on that Acting White b.s.. So Paige and her acting white foolishness can go kick rocks.
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@ Mary Burrell
I just skimmed the comments for that thread and the thread on Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria. And I’m having to readjust my internal image of you a little bit after reading that in the day you were a black Cyndi Laupner flying your freak flag! Not to mention Sharina as a goth…
I hung out mostly with the stoners in high school, even though I didn’t drink or smoke or do anything except sometimes get a contact high. (I had not heard of straight-edge at the time, but that describes my attitude pretty well.)
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@ Mary Burrell
I had only skimmed the two threads earlier. Now I have finished giving them a careful read. You made very good comments and astute observations on both threads, as did many other people, including a few commenters who like yourself are also still here years later.
I should have known Abagond would have already written about “acting white.” It must be discouraging to see these same tired tropes come up over and over again.
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acting-white—fordham.jpg
In a February 8, 2006 interview in the Rochester (New York) City Newspaper, Dr. Signithia Fordham discussed how her 1985 paper “Black Students’ School Success: Coping With the Burden of Acting White” has been misunderstood and misused by various groups and individuals since its publication. Dr. Fordham notes:
In this interview, Dr. Fordham adds much needed context to her observations about Black children and how they have responded to being thrust into school environments that don’t respect their culture, language or worldview. In a brief essay by Dr. Fordham included with the interview, Fordham zeroes in on the ambivalence, alienation, humiliation and resistance that Black children (and adults in other contexts) experience in White controlled spaces. Dr. Fordham writes:
https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/acting-white/Content?mode=print&oid=2131751
“Acting White” has been used as a tool for some people to blame Black people and their children for educational, economic and power gaps in American society. It masks the power relationships that are built into the structure of US institutions. Black children are especially vulnerable to alienation and misdirection in schools that dismiss their community culture and language. The use of “Acting White” is a distraction from deeper issues, like teacher attitudes and expectations, school curricula and the very purpose of education in this country.
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Perhaps this image address will show Dr. Fordham.
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@ Abagond
I want to make a comment later today about the role of teachers (both Black and White) in the achievement gap that is related to the “Acting White” argument. Should I place the comment on this thread, the “Acting White” thread, or the Open Thread?
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@Afrofem: Thank goodness for your post because that Acting White mess that Paige posted is straight up b.s..
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@ Open Minded Observer
I read about those studies on other websites before I found the article that conveniently linked to all of them. They come up a lot if you Google terms like “acting White”.
“So, you’ve pointed me to an article written by a POC that doesn’t believe in the concept and thinks that, to the extent that it exists, it should stop.”
I don’t understand what you’re saying here. If she doesn’t believe in the concept, then why does she think it should stop? Also, why would she say stuff like this:
“telling people they are ‘acting white’ hurts us all”
“It’s a term that most of us have had experienced [sic] with – ‘acting white’ – if not because we ourselves were accused of it, then because one of our peers was reminded of the ways he or she was stepping out of their [sic] race”
“Black teens have developed a fear of being seen as white by their peers”
“This idea that seeking higher intellectual pursuits means you’re turning your back on your culture needs to stop”
“Comments that insinuate that someone is ‘selling out’ or forgetting where they come from are a few of the ways that we’re ensuring the bar remains low”
Obama definitely didn’t fail to assimilate for fear of acting White. It’s worth noting that he has an immigrant father and did not grow up in a place like Roxbury.
“Again, I’m not saying the concept doesn’t exist… but seriously, don’t you find it suspiciously convenient?”
Are you implying that the failure of many students in places like Roxbury could be due to a combination of the fear of “acting White” and the problems they face like poverty and discrimination (issues that the mostly-White establishment sometimes finds excuses not to tackle)? If so, then we’re in agreement.
I believe I acknowledged upthread that classism and racism do exist in New England. However, poverty and discrimination often affect Black immigrants as well, so there are clearly other factors involved with the descendents of American slaves. Like I was saying before, I think the extensive slavery and segregation they have faced has had a major effect on their culture. That’s where the fear of “acting White” probably comes into play, as a sort of twisted “adaptation”.
@ Solitaire
“What would you consider to be signs of assimilation in regards to the population of native-born Bostonians who are descendants of black migrants from the South?
For example, consider a person who has graduated high school and gained steady employment as a bus driver, a short-order cook, or a cashier at a grocery store. Would this be a sufficient level of educational attainment, career success, and achievement for this descendant of sharecroppers to be considered assimilated into mainstream New England culture?”
I think that person would be considered assimilated.
“Or would it be necessary for someone from this specific population to graduate from college and work in a white-collar job to be considered fully assimilated into mainstream New England culture?”
This situation would probably indicate an even higher degree of assimilation. Like I said above, it’s a spectrum. Some descendents of early immigrant groups like the Irish still don’t seem fully assimilated. However, they are rare and are not indicative of the general ability of immigrant groups to assimilate and eventually improve the society in which they have chosen to live.
@ Afrofem
“‘Acting white’ is much larger than that. It’s part of the larger African American community… ‘Acting white’ not only means conformity, it is also resisting prevailing norms and expectation. It’s not just school.’”
That’s a very interesting quote. Thanks for posting it. I wonder how much descendants of American slaves are affected by the fear of “acting White” even after they have finished with school.
“‘Acting White’ has been used as a tool for some people to blame Black people and their children for educational, economic and power gaps in American society.”
Yeah, that’s what I was trying to say to Open Minded Observer above, when I mentioned “the problems they face like poverty and discrimination (issues that the mostly-White establishment sometimes finds excuses not to tackle)”.
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@ Paige
“I think that person would be considered assimilated.”
All right. So then would a person from this same population who dropped out of high school and failed to obtain a GED be considered unassimilated?
Or would it depend on whether this person had obtained gainful employment?
For example, take a native-born Bostonian from Roxbury who descended from the southern black migrants and who never finished high school but works full-time as a janitor, a house cleaner, or an attendant in a hospital laundry room.
Would that individual be seen as not fully assimilated into mainstream New England culture?
Or would that high school dropout need to be on welfare before you would say that they aren’t assimilated and are not a good “cultural match”?
“Some descendents of early immigrant groups like the Irish still don’t seem fully assimilated.”
How so?
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@Paige
“I don’t understand what you’re saying here. If she doesn’t believe in the concept, then why does she think it should stop? ”
Yeah, I knew I wasn’t conveying what I meant when I wrote that… sorry. What I meant was that, in general, all of the people here and the author of the article acknowledge that the phrase gets thrown around and even that it can be mean, but I haven’t read, heard or seen lots of people expressing that they literally choose not to embrace education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence.
I’ve now read way more than I intended on the topic, to the point of thinking it ridiculous that anyone even bothered to study it as if “fear of being accused of acting White” were some leading factor in what you perceive as a lack of assimilation. I get that the phrase is rooted in different stuff and carries a different undertone, but honestly, I imagine it to carry the same overall influence in society as any of the other labels people throw around in an effort to belittle someone’s achievements.
I simply don’t believe, as you seem to, that slave-descendant people do not also love and want education for themselves and their children, that they don’t actively seek to play an equal role in self-determination and seek reforms, if not grounded in historical precedence, then at least in rooted in correcting the wrongs found in historical precedence. I suppose it’s because I don’t find evidence to support that underlying premise that I no longer care explore how fear of “acting White” or oppositional behavior impact that premise. Like Mary says, it’s straight up B.S. and I’m going to take her word for it.
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@ Open Minded Observer
“Yeah, I knew I wasn’t conveying what I meant when I wrote that… sorry.”
I thought you conveyed your meaning. At least, I got it right away. The author believes that “acting white” gets thrown around the same way that “nerd” got thrown around at my high school, and she thinks that sort of taunting should stop. But she doesn’t believe that the fear of acting white is somehow paralyzing the residents of poor black communities.
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“worth noting that he has an immigrant father”
Obama didn’t have an immigrant father. He had a father who was temporarily in the U.S. as an international student and who abandoned his American family when he returned home.
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@ Afrofem
If you believe your comment has a long-term value, definitely the “Acting White” thread, but link to it from here. You might also consider this thread:
as either a place to put the comment or at least a link to it.
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I think the “Acting White” bs is long gone and replaced with awareness of all facets of life. I know of no black people or any other people of color that even use the phrase outside of the 90s. And if it does still exist it’s the ‘charade’ ignorance and approach without consideration for others. The so called ‘acting white’ is blissful ignorance in the twenty first century. That should be the definition.
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@ Abagond
Will do. Thanks.
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“…there are some achievements that usually signify assimilation/unification with the mainstream New England culture. Immigrants graduating high school (or earning a GED) is a good sign, and going to college or even getting advanced degrees is an even stronger indicator of assimilation. Getting hired (or starting one’s own business) is important, and most people with college degrees should be able to work at a white-collar job eventually. Being able to speak Standard English at a conversational level or higher is usually necessary; in some jobs, an advanced command of the language is crucial.”
This is hilarious! An example of “City upon a Hill” Massachusetts Puritan propaganda from the 1600s adapted to the 2010s.
By these criteria, the majority of White New Englanders are not “assimilated”. Nor for that matter are the majority of White Americans.
Basically, the quintessential “assimilated” American is an academically credentialed, upper middle class (or higher income) WASP.
This reminds me of a Toni Morrison quote:
@ Mary Burrell
You called it like it is….
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@ Afrofem: I am not as erudite and eloquent as you but i know bull sharky when i read it. Thank you for conformation.
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@ Afrofem: You can see why my hackles were up reading that poster Paige’s insulting and condescending and stupid post.
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@ Mary Burrell
“…i know bull sharky when i read it.”
True.
Education is no substitute for common sense.
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@Afofem: Common Sense is a flower that doesn’t grow in everyone’s yard.
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Three comments about Black teachers role in the academic achievement of Black students are posted in the “Black Education Achievement Gap” thread:
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@ Solitaire
“All right. So then would a person from this same population who dropped out of high school and failed to obtain a GED be considered unassimilated?
Or would it depend on whether this person had obtained gainful employment?
For example, take a native-born Bostonian from Roxbury who descended from the southern black migrants and who never finished high school but works full-time as a janitor, a house cleaner, or an attendant in a hospital laundry room.
Would that individual be seen as not fully assimilated into mainstream New England culture?
Or would that high school dropout need to be on welfare before you would say that they aren’t assimilated and are not a good ‘cultural match’?”
Again, I believe the assimilation process encompasses a spectrum. Dropping out of high school and never obtaining a GED would probably indicate a low level of assimilation. K-12 education is free for everyone (although of course it’s funded through taxes), so I would seriously question why someone didn’t want to take advantage of it.
“‘Some descendents of early immigrant groups like the Irish still don’t seem fully assimilated.’
How so?”
First of all, I’m sorry I spelled “descendants” incorrectly; I didn’t notice until you quoted me. To answer your question, there are some people of various ethnicities whose families have been in New England for over a hundred years, but they still don’t seem to appreciate the educational, professional, and cultural opportunities available to them. For example, they may fail to graduate high school or obtain a GED, just like in the example you gave earlier.
@ Open Minded Observer
“I haven’t read, heard or seen lots of people expressing that they literally choose not to embrace education, self-determination, and reform grounded in historical precedence.”
I believe you. People who choose not to embrace education, self-determination, and reform are not likely to be writing articles or having serious discussions about achievement.
“I simply don’t believe, as you seem to, that slave-descendant people do not also love and want education for themselves and their children, that they don’t actively seek to play an equal role in self-determination and seek reforms, if not grounded in historical precedence, then at least in rooted in correcting the wrongs found in historical precedence. I suppose it’s because I don’t find evidence to support that underlying premise that I no longer care explore how fear of ‘acting White’ or oppositional behavior impact that premise. Like Mary says, it’s straight up B.S. and I’m going to take her word for it.”
Some slave-descended people certainly do value education, self-determination, and reform. I understand that wanting something doesn’t always mean you can have it, and I empathize with people who have truly been denied the opportunity to succeed.
@ Afrofem
“‘…there are some achievements that usually signify assimilation/unification with the mainstream New England culture. Immigrants graduating high school (or earning a GED) is a good sign, and going to college or even getting advanced degrees is an even stronger indicator of assimilation. Getting hired (or starting one’s own business) is important, and most people with college degrees should be able to work at a white-collar job eventually. Being able to speak Standard English at a conversational level or higher is usually necessary; in some jobs, an advanced command of the language is crucial.’
This is hilarious! An example of ‘City upon a Hill’ Massachusetts Puritan propaganda from the 1600s adapted to the 2010s.
By these criteria, the majority of White New Englanders are not ‘assimilated’. Nor for that matter are the majority of White Americans.
Basically, the quintessential ‘assimilated’ American is an academically credentialed, upper middle class (or higher income) WASP.”
You find it hilarious that I value education, employment, and communication? I would hate to see a society without them.
I’m not sure where you got the idea that the majority of White New Englanders are not assimilated by my criteria. I can’t speak for the whole United States, but I don’t think being a WASP or having a high income are required for assimilation in New England. Less than fourteen percent of New Englanders list English ancestry when asked about their ethnic background, and those people often list other ethnicities as well. Income varies greatly even in assimilated families.
I never stated that WASPiness or wealth are New England values. On the contrary, I believe I mentioned multiple times that many immigrants (who are often non-WASP and not wealthy) are becoming exemplary New Englanders despite the difficulties they sometimes face because of their race and social class.
The “academically credentialed” part is the only value that I think is seriously reflected in my posts and in New England culture. I even admitted that we might prioritize formal education a bit too much at times; anything in excess is unproductive.
As for the “City on the Hill” speech (the Puritan one, not the Kennedy one that was also delivered in Massachusetts), I love these lines:
“We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other; make others’ conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.”
I would be honored to help carry those values forward into the twenty-first century.
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Um the person from roxbury would still in a straight hood, you know, have you even driven through the main drag? It’s rough
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@ Paige
“K-12 education is free for everyone (although of course it’s funded through taxes), so I would seriously question why someone didn’t want to take advantage of it.”
There are a variety of reasons why teenagers might drop out of school before graduation, including economic factors. It isn’t always a matter of what they want or what they know they should do.
“I even admitted that we might prioritize formal education a bit too much at times; anything in excess is unproductive.”
Perhaps so. Even if everyone in your state had “assimilated” to the point of having a bachelor’s degree or above, there would still be a need for janitors, laundry attendants, bus drivers, garbage collectors, construction workers, store clerks, and so on. How many college graduates would be content in these careers for very long?
If people whose families have been there 100 years still aren’t seen as fully assimilated if they lack a certain level of formal education, then it seems to me that there is a marked amount of class prejudice in your region, despite your earlier protestations above. I wonder how these lower-class people view themselves, whether they would agree that they aren’t true New Englanders.
“they still don’t seem to appreciate the educational, professional, and cultural opportunities available to them.”
I am at a loss for words to explain just how classist and elitist this statement is, if you can’t already hear it. Where you say “they don’t seem to appreciate,” I see instead “they have difficulty taking advantage of, often due to reasons out of their control.” I have to wonder how close you’ve ever been in your life to bare-bones poverty.
“I love these lines: ‘We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. …We must delight in each other; make others’ conditions our own… as members of the same body….’ I would be honored to help carry those values forward into the twenty-first century.”
And yet this whole discussion began because you wrote off a specific population of your city, complete with a flippant lol.
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@ Solitaire
“…this whole discussion began because you wrote off a specific population of your city, complete with a flippant lol.”
Aye, and remains as disrespectful, deflective and tone-deaf as ever.
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@ Solitaire
“Even if everyone in your state had ‘assimilated’ to the point of having a bachelor’s degree or above, there would still be a need for janitors, laundry attendants, bus drivers, garbage collectors, construction workers, store clerks, and so on. How many college graduates would be content in these careers for very long?”
Several of your examples are the “jobs American citizens don’t want to do” that I often hear about in political discussions. Ideally, many of these positions would be available to people from other countries who haven’t had much opportunity to learn English and get a formal education.
I definitely understand that poverty is a serious problem, one that too easily becomes cyclical and intergenerational. That’s why I support democratic socialism. We should reject poverty and the social values (like greed and extreme individualism) that help to create it.
“I wonder how these lower-class people view themselves, whether they would agree that they aren’t true New Englanders.”
It’s not that I think less-wealthy people aren’t New Englanders; it’s that I don’t think some less-educated people are particularly assimilated into the New England value system. People can be in a place but not of it.
“And yet this whole discussion began because you wrote off a specific population of your city, complete with a flippant lol.”
I don’t live in Boston proper, although I guess it is “my city” in a sense. I did not “write off” any population. I typed “lol” because I was laughing at some White people’s mistaken assumption that all Black New Englanders are the descendants of Southern sharecroppers. Nowadays, about a third of the Black people in Massachusetts are immigrants, and who knows how many of the rest are children or even grandchildren of immigrants. The majority of Black babies born in Massachusetts since 2008 have had an immigrant mother.
What I will always criticize is a lack of commitment to values that contribute to a high quality of life, regardless of what population we’re talking about.
@ Afrofem
Disagreeing with you isn’t the same as being disrespectful. I have tried my best to keep a civil tone at all times during this discussion.
As for deflection, I have not intentionally taken the conversation off-topic. I believe most of my comments have centered on the original focus, which was immigrants and race in New England. Additional topics like education, self-determination, and social class have come into the discussion because they’re relevant.
However, I’m sure that some of my replies could have been better. I know I misinterpreted people’s wording a few times.
@ Solitaire and Afrofem
What is it that you hope I’ll say at this point? I have already stated multiple times that racism, classism, and especially prejudice based on education levels can be issues in New England. New England is not perfect, but that won’t stop me from holding its positive values in high esteem.
@ v8driver
“Um the person from roxbury would still in a straight hood, you know, have you even driven through the main drag? It’s rough”
I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here. Are you referring to Blue Hill Ave?
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@paige i guess it sounds familiar i have been through boston a few times, i like salem.
roxbury is a rough seedy run down looking neighborhood how is living there assimilated its confinement and being preyed on everyone and watched what are you going to do put a gate around the porch or leave the door open screen door only with screen in on a pleasant summer day
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i really believe most people exectp maybe drug dealers feel marginalized and want more it needs to be some community unity efforts the govt can take care of its own
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i wanted to see it i read x
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@ Paige
“I typed “lol” because I was laughing at some White people’s mistaken assumption that all Black New Englanders are the descendants of Southern sharecroppers.”
I’m not sure that makes it any better. Look at the context. You set up a juxtaposition between two different groups of black people and declared one group to be “much better” because they “often work harder than native-born New Englanders.”
If you have paid attention at all here, you would know that the descendants of southern sharecroppers run into this stereotype often – that they are lazier and less worthy than recent immigrants from Africa and the West Indies. You would know they consider that stereotype insulting and disrespectful. You would know that stereotype can directly and negatively impact their educational and employment opportunities.
It doesn’t help them one bit if all those white people you lol’d at were to correct the mistaken assumption that all black New Englanders are the descendants of southern sharecroppers – not as long as those white people continue to have negative stereotypes about and attitudes towards the descendants of southern sharecroppers.
“New England is not perfect, but that won’t stop me from holding its positive values in high esteem.”
No one is asking you to. That is not what this is about.
But speaking of those positive values, let me return to your beloved quote from “The City on the Hill”:
“We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other; make others’ conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.”
How do you reconcile that with your statement: “People can be in a place but not of it”?
Those people who you consider to be in your place but not of it – are they or are they not “members of the same body” as you? Are they or are they not among those you are to hold “in brotherly affection” and “rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together”?
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yeah really, you can be in it, not of it, but you’re still ‘from there’
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@Paige
“Some slave-descended people certainly do value education, self-determination, and reform. I understand that wanting something doesn’t always mean you can have it, and I empathize with people who have truly been denied the opportunity to succeed.”
Your statements indicate that you believe, “Some slave-descended people certainly do value education, self-determination, and reform.”
Whereas I believe, “Most slave-descended people certainly do value education, self-determination, and reform.”
You and I both seem to believe “…that wanting something doesn’t always mean you can have it”
All of that is to say that because I have learned to “…empathize with people who have truly been denied the opportunity to succeed.”, that I would no longer use a phrase like, “the descendents of Southern sharecroppers who moved to Roxbury” as a synonym for less admirable.
Perhaps you were projecting that sentiment on others, but it doesn’t come off that way and the subsequent discussion of “acting White” and everything just reads as a doubling-down on a perspective based in stereotypes.
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@ everybody
First of all, I want to apologize for replying so inconsistently. I was getting frustrated with this discussion and decided to take some time off because I didn’t want to post anything I’d regret. Then I got distracted by busyness, pneumonia, and the holidays. I’m sorry that I didn’t reply in a timely manner. Earlier this year, I wanted to start my own blog, but I’m not sure I could keep up with it like Abagond does!
In reference to our earlier discussion, I was thinking about what classism really entails. It mostly seems to involve discrimination on the basis of wealth, but other factors like education can also be included. To me, it’s important to distinguish between valuing wealth and valuing education.
Riches can be lost at least as easily as they are gained, while a degree is permanent. Wealth often cuts people off from the realities of the world, but a good education helps people to better understand their place in society. Thus, I think it’s a bad idea to conflate discrimination on the basis of money and discrimination on the basis of education.
Maybe we should make up new words to distinguish this difference, like wealthism and schoolism. I’m more okay with schoolism than wealthism. As I’ve been trying to convey, I do think we need some standards based on values. To me, it’s more productive to value education than it is to value riches, for the reasons I outlined above.
@ v8driver
I never claimed that most people living in Roxbury were assimilated. In fact, I was trying to state that the opposite is often true.
@ Solitaire
I didn’t label any one group of people as inherently better than another; I just noted that some seem to be a good cultural match with the rest of New England. Culture can be changed.
“Those people who you consider to be in your place but not of it – are they or are they not ‘members of the same body’ as you?”
I don’t know if they consider themselves “members of the same body” as me. Based on their behavior, I would guess that they don’t. Now, is that entirely their fault? Probably not, since society often contributes to people’s perceptions of themselves.
@ Open Minded Observer
Well, maybe my perspective of Roxbury is partially based on stereotypes. I think it’s very difficult to form an overall impression of a group without a few stereotypes coming into play. Sometimes I even catch myself propagating negative stereotypes about groups to which I belong (such as women or millennials).
I’m always trying to become more open-minded without letting go of my value-based standards, which can be a difficult balance. I hope I will improve at it as I move along in life.
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@ Paige
First of all, let me make it very clear that I do value education. I certainly value it much more than riches. Education has been a constant goal in my life, not just as a means to an end but rather a quest for continual learning, whether formal or autodidactic.
That said, I still find it disturbing that you are “more okay” with “discrimination on the basis of education.” Should we be okay with discrimination of any kind?
You may think that such discrimination is okay because the U.S. has a free education system open to everyone, and therefore anyone who is poorly educated must be so by personal choice, because they didn’t avail themselves of it.
Yet we know in practice there are huge disparities in the quality of education provided to different groups of Americans. Public primary and secondary schools on reservations, in poor black and hispanic neighborhoods, and in rural white communities are vastly inferior.
We also know that a four-year college education at a public school (nevermind a private school) is increasingly out of reach financially for many Americans in the lower middle class — even more so for the working class and the poverty-stricken.
Is it really ok to judge someone — much less actively discriminate against them — for their lack of formal education? At least without first knowing what hurdles they may have faced and been unable to surpass?
“I didn’t label any one group of people as inherently better than another; I just noted that some seem to be a good cultural match with the rest of New England.”
However you word it, you’re still setting up a dichotomy based at least in part on stereotypes, and you’re still passing a value judgment that privileges one culture over another.
“I don’t know if they consider themselves “members of the same body” as me. Based on their behavior, I would guess that they don’t.”
I didn’t ask them, Paige. I asked you. Are those people members of the same body or not?
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@ Solitaire
I’m glad to know that you value education. I do believe that some discrimination on the basis of productive values is acceptable.
Let’s say your boss wanted to hire a new employee. One applicant dropped out of high school, while the other completed her bachelor’s degree. Which person would your boss probably hire? Would it make sense for the high school dropout to sue your workplace for education-based discrimination? What if she said, “I went to an underperforming high school, and college is expensive, so you should hire me”?
Now, I absolutely feel that there are problems with the American education system. They need to be addressed so that the population can become more educated. For example, college should definitely be made more affordable. The quality of public school education should be improved in places where it truly is inadequate.
In my area, the schools that perform poorly on standardized tests often have the most foreign language speakers. The native English speakers tend to do about as well in the “inferior” schools as the average student is doing in districts with few foreign language speakers. Thus, the quality of the education in the underperforming schools is not generally inadequate; the students there are just struggling with the language barrier and other immigrant issues.
However, I know that the schools in Massachusetts and the rest of New England do not always represent the American norm. Our districts are controlled at a local level, usually serving one or two towns. That setup makes it easy for residents to be highly involved in the school committee and its meetings. Much of the US has county-managed school systems instead.
New England also has a long tradition of community support for education, which again goes back to the Puritans (who ran tax-funded, tuition-free schools). Even though people of English descent no longer dominate the culture, New Englanders of other backgrounds have learned their values and carry them on.
“Are those people members of the same body or not?”
I’m just one “cell” of the “body”, so I don’t decide who is working with me. Other New Englanders make their own decisions and control their own actions. I happily collaborate with those who are interested.
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The whole New England discussion is a long-winded dodge and deflection from the blatant anti-Black racism in this disrespectful comment:
This deflection has been a way to direct the narrative away from this central quote:
“Many West Indians and Africans love Anglo culture even more than Bostonians/New Englanders do. It’s a much better cultural match than the sharecroppers….”
Instead, readers of this thread have been regaled with blind-alley monologues about “assimilation”,”values”, “education” and “self-determination”. All have been rhetorical deflections to avoid a frank discussion about race, class and history.
At no point on this thread has the assertion that many West Indians and Africans love Anglo/White culture been definitively proven. There have been no links to Afro-Caribbean or recent African immigrant’s blogs or publications that support their “love for Anglo/White culture”. There have been no studies cited. There has not even been any anecdotal evidence presented by this commenter to support that supposed “love”.
Just because Afro-Caribbean and recent African immigrants are not wary around Anglo-White Northeasterners doesn’t mean they love Northeasterners. They are still so new to the USA that they falsely equate Anglo-White with “American”. On the other hand, Native born Black people have learned to be wary and mistrustful of Northeastern Anglo-White people through centuries of bitter experience.
The Boston Globe recently ran a series that explored pervasive anti-Black bigotry in Boston. Many of the respondents were Black Bostonians. Some were White Bostonians. The overwhelming majority of Black respondents described a racial climate that more resembles Forsyth County, Georgia than a modern, multiracial metropolitan area.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/12/10/discuss-spotlight-day-how-racist-boston/P6OPNQH9yGIeRpdIEs68AL/story.html
I wonder how much “love” and cultural affinity recent immigrants will feel after they survive White mob violence in the coming years?
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@ Paige
Of course it is not discrimination if a job candidate does not meet the minimal qualifications for a position. And of course there are jobs (in the trades, for example) for which a high school dropout with commiserate experience and skills can be more qualified than a college graduate.
Here’s a real-life example of potential discrimination based on education. I needed to hire a new staff member for my department. Of the top two candidates, one graduated from a middle-ranked public state university and the other from a highly ranked and prestigious private college. But the first candidate had more experience, had a proven track record of accomplishments and expertise, and scored much higher on the written tests that were part of the interview process. The first candidate was clearly more qualified for the position. If I had instead chosen the second, less-qualified candidate because of the Ivy League diploma, that would have been discrimination.
“In my area, the schools that perform poorly on standardized tests often have the most foreign language speakers.”
Is that the case in Roxbury?
“Thus, the quality of the education in the underperforming schools is not generally inadequate… However, I know that the schools in Massachusetts and the rest of New England do not always represent the American norm.”
In this thread I’ve already linked to a number of articles about the inadequacies of Massachusetts public schools in minority neighborhoods, including problems caused by lack of sufficient funding. I could easily link to more, but I think you know how to research topics yourself.
“I’m just one “cell” of the “body”, so I don’t decide who is working with me. Other New Englanders make their own decisions and control their own actions. I happily collaborate with those who are interested.”
I didn’t see anything in your quote about only collaborating with those who are working with you. I do see something about self-sacrifice for the good of the lowlier members of the community:
“We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities.”
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@ Paige
Also, those English Puritan immigrants who founded Massachusetts and imparted their values? I descend from them. I may never have lived in New England, but I’m not totally ignorant of my ancestors’ values and achievements, nor am I blind to their moral and ethical failings.
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@ Paige
“Much of the US has county-managed school systems instead.”
What’s your source for this? I’d like to see the statistics. I can’t think of anywhere that I’ve lived where this is true. San Diego certainly has a huge school district which encompasses most of the county, but then the city itself also encompasses most of the county. There are other autonomous towns within San Diego County that have their own separate public school systems.
The rural school district where I grew up covers only one small corner of the county. I believe there are about 17 public school districts in the entire county, several of which have a total student population under 200 and have active support from parents and the overall community. The schools are still resource-starved compared to other areas of the state. In my time, our textbooks were often 20 to 30 years out of date.
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@ Afrofem
“At no point on this thread has the assertion that many West Indians and Africans love Anglo/White culture been definitively proven. There have been no links to Afro-Caribbean or recent African immigrant’s blogs or publications that support their ‘love for Anglo/White culture’. There have been no studies cited. There has not even been any anecdotal evidence presented by this commenter to support that supposed ‘love’.”
Anglo and White culture are not necessarily the same. I did present anecdotal evidence of Black immigrants assimilating by embracing the Anglo values of New England, just as other immigrant groups have done in the past. I don’t know of any studies specifically referencing New England, but if you want, I can post articles demonstrating that Black immigrants tend to be more successful than the descendants of American slaves in this country as a whole.
“The Boston Globe recently ran a series that explored pervasive anti-Black bigotry in Boston. Many of the respondents were Black Bostonians. Some were White Bostonians. The overwhelming majority of Black respondents described a racial climate that more resembles Forsyth County, Georgia than a modern, multiracial metropolitan area.”
I have news for you: modern, multiracial metropolitan areas are racist too. I’m not sure there’s any place in the Americas that isn’t somewhat prejudiced. At least some people in Boston are trying to shine a light on the issue.
“I wonder how much ‘love’ and cultural affinity recent immigrants will feel after they survive White mob violence in the coming years?”
Are you aware of a White mob planning to attack immigrants in the coming years? If so, you should alert the authorities. The vast majority of immigrants in Boston have never been attacked, and most Bostonians (and New Englanders in general) would never support such cruel conduct.
@ Solitaire
First of all, when I was writing about town-run schools versus county-run schools, I forgot to mention the size of New England municipalities. Boston, the most populous city in New England, has fewer than seven hundred thousand people (because most of its metro area lives in dozens of other municipalities). Boston is already much larger than most school districts in the area.
In contrast, there are cities in the US that encompass huge tracts of land and are home to two or three or eight million people. Their schools, libraries, emergency services, senior centers, parks, and other amenities are all somehow managed by one huge municipal government. That type of system introduces difficulties that New England cities don’t have to face.
As a disclaimer, I’m not one of those people who’s afraid of big government. As a democratic socialist, I actually embrace an extensive social safety net more than most Americans do. What I fear is top-heavy government that doesn’t incorporate enough local leadership.
“Here’s a real-life example of potential discrimination based on education. I needed to hire a new staff member for my department. Of the top two candidates, one graduated from a middle-ranked public state university and the other from a highly ranked and prestigious private college. But the first candidate had more experience, had a proven track record of accomplishments and expertise, and scored much higher on the written tests that were part of the interview process. The first candidate was clearly more qualified for the position. If I had instead chosen the second, less-qualified candidate because of the Ivy League diploma, that would have been discrimination.”
I agree with you completely. I never said anything about valuing the prestige level of a college over a candidate’s relevant experience and talents. That employer would be an idiot; not only would the hiring process be unfair to the more qualified candidate, it would also deprive the department of a great employee.
“Is that the case in Roxbury?”
Roxbury has fewer foreign language speakers than some other places. Regardless, as I mentioned upthread, they still don’t seem to be particularly assimilated.
“In this thread I’ve already linked to a number of articles about the inadequacies of Massachusetts public schools in minority neighborhoods, including problems caused by lack of sufficient funding.”
Lack of funding can be a problem, but an important aspect of a school’s performance is its student population and the difficulties they’re facing at home or in the society as a whole. Immigrants tend to struggle at first.
“I didn’t see anything in your quote about only collaborating with those who are working with you. I do see something about self-sacrifice for the good of the lowlier members of the community:
‘We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others’ necessities.'”
How can I collaborate with those who are not willing to work with me? However, I do believe in abridging ourself of our superfluities for the supply of others’ necessities. That’s why I support progressive political goals.
“Also, those English Puritan immigrants who founded Massachusetts and imparted their values? I descend from them. I may never have lived in New England, but I’m not totally ignorant of my ancestors’ values and achievements, nor am I blind to their moral and ethical failings.”
Only a small part of my heritage is English, but I’m not blind to the Puritans’ failings either. The best part of being reform-minded is that we can constantly keep improving.
As for county-managed school systems, I don’t know if you accept Wikipedia as a valid source, but it’s the most comprehensive overview I could find:
“In most Southern states, school systems operate either as an arm of county government, or at least share coextensive boundaries with the state’s counties. In Maryland, most school systems are run at the county level, but the Baltimore City system operates separately, at a county-equivalent level. Other states, such as New York, have both independent school districts and school systems that are subordinate to cities. The Hawaii State Department of Education functions as a single statewide school district. This is unique among the states, but the District of Columbia Public Schools operates district public schools in Washington, DC and the Puerto Rico Department of Education operates all public schools in the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, thus they also function as single school districts.”
I’m sorry that your school lacked resources. You and your community deserve a lot of credit, because you seem very educated anyway.
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Wow, I can’t believe this focus on New England has gone on so long.
Well, I grew up in SE DC and adjacent PG county, MD, but spent summer school breaks and other family visits in Alabama every year. Then at age 16, I went to university in the Boston metro area. Later on, I moved to New York City.
DC – Alabama – Boston, NY – I had direct contact over many years in each of these places.
I have relatives in each of those areas there, so in addition to actually living in those places, I have family in each of them too.
It was always a game I played in my mind when I was young, which place in the USA is more racist or less tolerant, and I found that all of them are, they just express it in different ways. If anything, the Boston area was a lot more segregated than anything I saw in Alabama. In Alabama, as whites and blacks have been living around each other for centuries, they have developed a sort of “code of conduct” or social code on interracial relations but had passed segregation laws to enforce it. It is all out in the open. In Boston, they just straight out segregate, but they don’t discuss it in public. That is until they had the mandatory school desegregation in the 1970s. Then they finally expressed how they really feel.
New York is a bit more similar to Boston, and today, it has the most segregated schools (although I think Milwaukee has the highest residential segregation).
DC is the more complex one. I think the areas south of DC in both southern MD and VA south of the beltway are a bit more like the South, but the area inside the beltway and in the northern and NW suburbs (on both VA and MD sides) are a bit more like the North. The southern and northern attitudes are in constant flux there, but over the past few decades, the northern attitudes have come to dominate more as they reign in the neighborhoods and spheres of influence that have more power. It doesn’t mean that it is any less racist.
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@ Paige
” That employer would be an idiot”
Then the head of my division was an idiot, because I had quite a haul trying to convince him that the Ivy Leaguer would not be the best hire.
“In contrast, there are cities in the US that encompass huge tracts of land and are home to two or three or eight million people. Their schools, libraries, emergency services, senior centers, parks, and other amenities are all somehow managed by one huge municipal government.”
Excuse me? Did I not just tell you that I used to live in one of those huge cities on huge tracts of land run by one huge municipal government? I have been trying very hard not to get snarky about your condescending attitude, but JFC, I don’t need you to spell out how it works to me like I’m 5 years old.
“As for county-managed school systems, I don’t know if you accept Wikipedia as a valid source, but it’s the most comprehensive overview I could find”
I would need to look into this in more detail, which I might do when I have more time. But I consider it a moot point for the purposes of this discussion. Like your New England schools, my school district was locally run, under local control, and had a great deal of local involvement. None of that prevented it from sucking due to lack of funds.
“I’m sorry that your school lacked resources.”
I didn’t tell you the half of it. The pay was so low that we had some full-time teachers whose families still qualified for — and received — food stamps. The teachers went on strike for higher pay when I was in high school. I almost got expelled for refusing to cross the picket line to attend class, walking the line with the strikers, and trying to convince other students to do the same. If the school board had followed through with its threat, most likely that would have been the end of my college aspirations.
“You and your community deserve a lot of credit, because you seem very educated anyway.”
Bullsh!t. For every one of me, there were at least five others just as intelligent and hard-working, if not more so, who couldn’t make it out. Just looking at raw ability, there is no question in my mind that if we had gotten the same quality of education as the kids in the Chicago suburbs, many of my schoolmates who are now truck drivers or construction workers or hair stylists could have instead been physicians, engineers, lawyers, scientists, etc.
But this is the crux: as bad as my school district was, it pales in comparison to the horror stories I have heard from black people in my state who went to public schools in East St. Louis and the South Side of Chicago. At least my school had textbooks. The buildings weren’t falling apart, the heater worked in freezing weather, the desks weren’t broken, there weren’t gaping holes in the floors. We didn’t have a rat infestation.
“Lack of funding can be a problem, but an important aspect of a school’s performance is its student population and the difficulties they’re facing at home or in the society as a whole.”
Lack of funding is an immense problem. The student population will be negatively impacted by insufficient funding whether they have other difficulties or not.
“Roxbury has fewer foreign language speakers than some other places. Regardless, as I mentioned upthread, they still don’t seem to be particularly assimilated.”
Do you actually know anyone from Roxbury? I don’t even mean someone who currently lives there, but anyone who grew up there?
“How can I collaborate with those who are not willing to work with me?”
How exactly do you know they aren’t willing to work with you?
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@ jefe
That was an interesting comment. You mentioned the school desegregation program in Boston. Did you know that it was initially enforced by the state government of Massachusetts, which in 1966 created the first law in the US prohibiting “racial imbalance” (de facto segregation) in schools?
Unfortunately, not everyone was on board with the progressive agenda. Many of the most vocal dissenters were from poor Irish and Italian families, who resented being “lumped in” with Black people. Nowadays, most people of Irish or Italian descent are more assimilated and would know better than to protest against school integration.
In fact, the busing program continues to this day with little dissent. It is the longest continually-running program of its kind in the US (Boston’s school committee took over from the state in 1983). Thousands of participating students take buses to 34 different school districts in the Boston area. The program is not perfect, but it’s an attempt at improvement.
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@ Solitaire
Okay, this will be my last post before bowing out of this discussion. I don’t appreciate your negative attitude and foul language, and I’m not going to put up with being treated rudely. If my tone has seemed condescending, it’s probably because I was struggling to remain patient.
“But I consider it a moot point for the purposes of this discussion.”
Well, you were the one who asked me for a source about it.
Again, I’m sorry that your school system was such a mess. However, I don’t appreciate you swearing because I complimented you and your community on persevering despite the odds.
Some friends of my family are descendants of American slaves (although the father of two of the children is Cape Verdean). Part of their family is from Boston, but I’m not sure whether they lived in Roxbury or some other area (we didn’t see them all the time; they were the type of friends we invited to barbecues).
I know if people are willing to work with me based on whether they put in effort toward shared causes.
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@ Paige
Oh, good, the Tone Argument.
“I know if people are willing to work with me based on whether they put in effort toward shared causes.”
So in other words you’ve never directly asked anyone from Roxbury or a similar neighborhood if they would be interested in collaborating on something, like a shared project between your school district and theirs.
I’m very sorry that your white fragility, your cognitive dissonance, and your smug sense of regional superiority are so firmly in place that you persist in hurting others with your racist comments.
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“Nowadays, most people of Irish or Italian descent are more assimilated and would know better than to protest against school integration.”
Yep, they know better now, and they also know that on the other hand it’s perfectly acceptable to make racist comments about the black neighborhoods they’re being bused to, especially on internet forums created by and for black folks.
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“The southern and northern attitudes are in constant flux there, but over the past few decades, the northern attitudes have come to dominate more as they reign in the neighborhoods and spheres of influence that have more power. It doesn’t mean that it is any less racist.”
One thing most Black adults learn is that every part of the USA is bigoted against Black people. It seems to be an immutable fact of Black life. The bigotry is expressed in different ways in different places and by different groups, but it is always there, like a thirty foot wall at the end of your street.
Everyone has a different response to the wall. Some people wail at the wall. They tell the wall, “I am a good person, don’t judge me by those others.” Some people become so dispirited by the immensity of the wall that they sit at the base of the wall in a near catatonic state.
Others will try to scale the wall, dig under it or hike for miles looking for a crack large enough for them to squeeze through. Yet others will spray the wall with graffiti or paint colorful murals. A few will take a sledgehammer to the wall, but they usually die after knocking off a few blocks here and there.
A good portion of Black people understand the semi-permanence of the wall and resolve to build their own lives in its shadow. They work everyday, raise children as best they can and attend to their own mental and spiritual needs.
They know the wall does not define them. The wall defines the people who designed, built and maintain the wall. Like all human structures, one day the wall will crumble into dust. What seems most important is enduring the indignity of the wall and using any tool at hand to chip away at the wall——-generation by generation, hastening the collapse of the wall for those Black people who follow.
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OMG, did I just read this?
Protest was attributed to a lack of assimilation?
Of course the people who were assimilated into the Anglo-American mainstream or who were upper middle-class never had to worry about mandatory desegregation. It didn’t affect them.
I think whites of all persuasions, whether children of immigrants or 10th generation whites who trace their origin to the Revolutionary war do not want to be “lumped in” with blacks. That is a phenomenon I have seen all across the country at all levels. The difference is that wealthy and upper middle class have more tools at their disposal to avoid this than the poorer working class. The more middle class even had invented tools to deal with this (eg, segregation academies).
I first experienced mandatory desegregation in PG county, MD (whose school system, by the way, was already bigger than Boston’s), then I went to university near Boston and the people there were still reeling from the mandatory desegregation there. But it only affected the people in Boston proper. My college roommate lived in Brookline (an inner urban suburb) and I was in Somerville (another inner urban suburb) and no one there had to worry about having to go to school with blacks. Well, there was a very small isolated community of blacks in nearby Medford (this actually surprised me – a community of 2000 blacks nestled in a confined section of a town with 65,000 inhabitants).
Everybody at my university acted shocked when I showed them my High School yearbook — to them it looked very racially integrated, totally unlike what they experienced in school. But they had no idea how segregated my high school was within the school. Gee, when I went to my high school reunion in 2017 I was by far the brownest person who attended. My high school is still just as racially segregated now as it was decades ago, both the current class year and the ones from back then.
In fact, the whole desegregation thing figured very prominently in my childhood and teenage experience. I even wrote a guest post here on this blog.
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@Afrofem
In all honesty, there is extensive bigotry against all sorts of people across the USA. Yes, bigotry against black people is pervasive across much of the country, but so is all sorts of bigotry.
At Christmas time I met with someone several years older than me who grew up in Seattle. So he is definitely old enough to remember the 60s civil rights movement and the 70s Affirmative Action and desegregation period. We talked a little about that period and we compared our experience about having parents of an interracial marriage (his mother was HK Chinese, but his father was German-American, with some family still in Germany). He did not have to grow up with the problem of anti-miscegenation laws at that time (like I did). And I grew up with daily constant reminders of the black / white conflict (which in my opinion has never stopped), but when he was growing up, he said people in Seattle never talked about it as a local problem (it was a more a problem in other parts of the country). Actually, Asians emerged as a much more salient target of bigotry there than blacks as far as he recalled.
Not saying that region of the country is any better. I know Oregon banned black settlement altogether for many decades while they were simultaneously performing expulsion programs for Asians and Native Americans.
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@ Paige
“I don’t appreciate you swearing because I complimented you and your community on persevering despite the odds.”
And I don’t appreciate your “compliment” one bit. I got lucky, that’s all. As I wrote, there were other kids who were just as worthy as I who didn’t catch any lucky breaks.
I don’t want your compliments or your pity. I want change.
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@Paige: These are my thoughts on your posts on this thread, you might not realize how smug and condescending you are coming across as. I get angry reading your comments. I GET ANGRY Reading your comments give this some thought please. You are a nice racist, you might not be wearing KKK robes and burning crosses on and calling black people the N-word. But you are steeped in “whiteness.” Not the your skin color but your mindset. I might even suggest you read some books on whiteness. Do some self reflection and for the love of sweet Black Jesus please don’t comment on this thread again. All you are doing is digging yourself self deeper into a hole and failing. It’s okay if you are a racist we all are to some degree, we can’t help but be because we live in a racist country. Do the work Paige and try to be better in 2018.
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@ Mary Burrell
WOW! Just Wow! Well said.
That is the most infuriating aspect of “discussing” race with a liberal White Supremacist. They think they know more about the condition of “you people” than you do. They are clueless about the deep history of the people of this country. They are willfully ignorant about the social and economic structures that lift up some groups and hold back others.
Paige could learn a lot about those structures by reading more about “Whiteness”, its history, who maintains it and why. I won’t hold my breath about that. Why bother learning about other people’s realities when you can just deflect, duck and dodge.
Another reason for Paige’s arrogance is her youth. Most of the commenters on this forum are forty years old or older. Many of us have had those moments (months or years) in adult life that can only be described as “butt to the wall”. Times when you felt like you were riding a hurricane: crying, praying and gritting your teeth day after day just to get to the end of the ride. Then you slowly picked yourself up, shook off the dust and limped forward until you could walk again. You never looked at life or other people quite the same. You developed something called empathy and deepened in wisdom.
Of course, not everyone grows deeper, some just grow older. The current president is a perfect example of that type of person.
Mary Burrell, you have obviously grown deeper with the years. It is my privilege to learn from you.
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@Afrofem: I learn so much from you and the present commenters and commenters of the past, you and Solitaire and Jefe have made enlightening and incisive post and i learn from them. I even learn from Paige and Lord of Mirkwood because they are whites that live in a bubble and are privileged and be as such causes them to be obtuse and lack empathy for others. And their youth plays a large part as well. Paige is just an ignorant young woman who needs to just learn and listen and read and study about intersection in regards to race because she has much to learn.
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@ Solitaire
Your comments on this thread have been eye-opening and very enlightening. Most of all, thank you for pointing out how not all White people are advantaged [“assimilated” !] in the same ways as other White people in different parts of the country. It is one thing to read statistics. First person narratives are a lot more nuanced and powerful.
Your comment upthread really spoke to me when you wrote:
Same here.
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Solitaire: I love and appreciate your comments I learn so much.
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@Paige: These are some books to help you open your mind and educate you. 1.Dear White America by Tim Wise
2.White Like Me byTim Wise
3. Under The Affluence, Shaming The Poor, Praising The Rich, And Sacrificing The Future Of America by Tim Wise
4.Race In North America Origin And Evolution Of A Worldview by Audrey Smedley and Brian Smedley
5.When Affirmative Action Was White (An Untold History Of Racial Inequality In Twentieth-Century America) Ira Katz Nelson
6.The Wages Of Whiteness Race And The Making Of The American Working Class by David R. Roediger
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@ Afrofem and Mary Burrell
Thank you so much for your kind words. I’ve been feeling really upset about this thread after losing my temper yesterday.
Afrofem, I went back and read your very first comment, where you were happy that Abagond had taken your suggestion and were excited to share your knowledge about and appreciation of the singer Cesaria Evora. It hurts my heart that what should have been a fun thread on music turned into this mess. I’m so sorry.
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@Solitaire: What you said needed to be said hopefully Paige will learn something.
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@ jefe
“…he said people in Seattle never talked about it as a local problem (it was a more a problem in other parts of the country). Actually, Asians emerged as a much more salient target of bigotry there than blacks as far as he recalled.”
You are correct in writing that bigotry is extensive and affects more than just Black people in the USA. Other groups experience bigotry from White people and others.
Over the years, I have had the opportunity to learn from long-time residents, listen to news shows and read articles that described how bigotry was expressed in Seattle. It was quite different here from my Southern hometown.
For one thing, Asian Americans of all ethnicities outnumbered Black people in Seattle by a factor of two to one. When I came here, the Black population was 5%. All Asian American groups together were 10% or more and the Latinx population was statistically insignificant. Native Americans formed a large presence in surrounding counties, but were not found in large numbers in the city.
According to local anecdotes and written accounts, Asian and Black Seattleites were confined to intensely segregated spaces in the city. There were numerous housing covenants that expressly forbade both groups from moving into Seattle’s North or West neighborhoods.
Both groups (and I’m including a lot of sub-groups here) also experienced a great deal of retail discrimination. Certain shops and most restaurants and bars were strictly off limits. Both groups were also pushed into the same K-12 schools, with the Asian groups having the advantage of Saturday ethnic schools as an educational supplement.
Chinese Seattleites were subject to repeated pogroms from the 1870’s to 1905. While they were not physically attacked after that point, there was a lot of animosity directed towards them by White Seattleites for decades afterward.
Japanese Americans in this area were mostly rural truck farmers prior to WWII. After Internment, those that returned to the city opened small shops or operated landscaping services. By the time the Sansei reached maturity, many moved into professional occupations in the city.
Filipino Seattleites were subject to a lot of daily bigotry from White Seattleites. They tended to work in the canneries and construction trades where they eventually formed labor and political alliances with local Chinese Americans, Native Americans and Black Americans.
As both populations increased through births and migration, they eventually spread out into the Central and Southern neighborhoods of the city just as the Italians and Jews moved up to fancier locations in the Northern and Eastern suburbs.
There was a lot of intermingling (and some intermarriage) between groups. A lot of older Black residents recalled groups of Chinese and Filipinos in Black jazz and soul nightclubs and Black people frequenting Asian owned restaurants and businesses.
[As an aside, when I arrived in Seattle, there was still a viable Black business community, with shops, restaurants, bars, clubs and a bank. I was most surprised by the vibrant homegrown Black music scene that never got the attention it deserved. Jimi Hendrix and Quincy Jones were the only nationally known figures from that scene].
In summary, prior to the Civil Rights Movement, there was a bright line of bigotry that separated White Seattleites from non-European Seattleites. Asian Americans suffered under that regime of discrimination. Black people found in Seattle a city of unspoken rules and constraints. It was a contrast to the in-your-face bigotry of the South, yet the same.
The same wall….
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@ Solitaire
“…what should have been a fun thread on music turned into this mess. I’m so sorry.”
I’m not sorry. It is good when people reveal their true selves.
When I graduated from high school, I had a choice between a Seven Sister/Ivy League college and a midwestern college. I chose the midwest. Now, I so glad I did.
Plus, I got to do some research on Northern slavery and racism. Very enlightening.
Most of all, I have renewed respect for my Southern sharecropper forebears.
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@ Mary Burrell
That is quite a reading list. I will have to add them to my nearly unmanageable book pile.
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I have #4,5,6, The Tim Wise books are in my Amazon cart.
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@Afrofem: That is a very enlightening post on how Asians and Black Americans were treated in Seattle.
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I stumbled onto this very interesting essay by a white author who grew up in rural poverty and who makes some of the same arguments about merit and effort that I did on this thread:
He also examines some scientific research that suggests the stress associated with poverty can have biological effects, even at the cellular level, and makes some interesting conclusions:
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/why-poverty-is-like-a-disease
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@ Solitaire
Thanks for sharing this article. This sentence really resonated with me, “The asymmetry of outcomes for the poor is so enormous because it is so expensive to be poor.”
A lot of people overlook the costs of poverty to the poor themselves. The constant juggling of expenses. The tenuous hold on employment. The take or leave it attitudes of the people who “serve” the poor, whether they are businesses or so-called social service agencies. The despair and self-blame.
Not to mention the blame of others. Middle class and affluent White people are very hard on their low-income cousins. I’ve witnessed a lot of sneering and contempt by well off White people toward low-income White people.
That behavior is not unknown among Black people, but there is an understanding among middle class Black people that education, white collar jobs and a 401k does not insulate them from ill treatment. Among Black people only the highest earners put class before all else.
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@ Afrofem
It was the previous sentence that really got me:
“It is because being poor is a high-risk gamble.”
A high-risk gamble that most people are born into.
A high-risk gamble that begins in utero during fetal development.
A high-risk gamble whether the given individual wants to gamble or not, whether they are the kind of person who enjoys gambling and risk-taking or who is risk-avoidant and seeks to feel secure.
A high-risk gamble that children are thrown into willy-nilly and have no choice but to roll the dice.
And then add race into that — anyone born black faces a similar high-risk gamble based on their phenotype alone. Those who are also born poor are immediately thrust into two high-risk games of chance, where the odds are stacked against them and the house cheats with impunity.
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@ Solitaire
“Those who are also born poor are immediately thrust into two high-risk games of chance, where the odds are stacked against them and the house cheats with impunity.”
I fully agree.
I’m reminded of Thomas Paine’s words in his 1796 essay, “Agrarian Justice”:
https://www.ssa.gov/history/paine4.html
For context, the value of £15 pounds sterling in 1796 in todays dollars is $1793.00. £10 pounds sterling is 1195.00.
Paine not only advocated for a cash grant to all citizens at age 21, he also proposed an early form of Social Security starting at age 50. I’ve also read others who advocated for the age 21 grant to be in the neighborhood of $20,000 or more to give every young person a running start on life.
As much as Paine and other thinkers of his day loved “civilization”, they also realized the loss of access to the natural world (which Paine calls our “natural inheritance”) created a great unequal game for the majority of people. Paine wanted to even the odds and tax the house.
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I’m too in musical mode and I have this piece of beautiful Cape Verdean chanson to share with you. Let’s go,
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbvOhkveU10 )
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