THIS POLL IS CLOSED. THANK YOU FOR YOUR FEEDBACK
Question: Are the ideas presented in the post “Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?” original with me?
Thu Mar 30th 2017 by abagond
THIS POLL IS CLOSED. THANK YOU FOR YOUR FEEDBACK
Question: Are the ideas presented in the post “Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?” original with me?
Posted in stuff | 32 Comments
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WPThemes.
Yes they’re original, but a lot of it has to do with the fact that I never thought about anime characters as “white.” I never thought of them as Japanese either, I just don’t watch enough anime to think about it.
I’ve thought about similar ideas, but not exactly the portrayal of simple characters having a default race. I’ve thought about how we see other languages before and how speakers of those languages see English. I’ve also thought about how accents seem weird to us, but not if we grew up speaking them.
I don’t know why you’re conducting this poll, but I thought that was an important thing to point out. I selected “no” because although the underlying idea is the same, I’ve never applied it to portrayals of cartoon characters
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sorry I meant I selected “yes, they are new”
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Anime’ is a style of animation. The characters are neither white or asian but are a ‘cartoon’ designated peoples. And for that I vote for the rights of the ‘Cartoon Designated’.
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That post was one of your weakest. Why? Because you ignored the long history of Japanese drawing themselves as “Asian”. Compare and contrast Anime with Japanese woodblocks prior to Western influence on Japan. Look at Hokusai’s figures, They look nothing like Manga or Anime. Your argument, imaginative, as it was, is refuted by history.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=hokusai%27s+human+figures&tbm=isch&imgil=aW_dF2niwM4cVM%253A%253BJZuF6LtqDZsXgM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fomeka.wustl.edu%25252Fomeka%25252Fexhibits%25252Fshow%25252Fhokusaimangabodies&source=iu&pf=m&fir=aW_dF2niwM4cVM%253A%252CJZuF6LtqDZsXgM%252C_&usg=__mnNPF4D_PN_QDsMqvrj09B2G5TA%3D&biw=1067&bih=491&ved=0ahUKEwino9Cp5P_SAhVG4IMKHfH6AJIQyjcIJQ&ei=osrdWKfKFsbAjwTx9YOQCQ#imgrc=_
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I voted “yes original with you” but will qualify it to say that I’ve not seen those ideas before you expressed them. Would add also that the perspective in that joint, like so many of your pieces, was fresh and insightful and opened my eyes to a way of looking at that issue that I had not previously considered, and for that I thank you.
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Japanese drawing themselves as being white are the effective, longitudinal results of decades of conditioning and voluntarily longing to escape themselves and project something other than who they truly are. (Psychology 101)
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I voted “yes original with you” not because I know, but because I have not seen it anywhere else online.
I will make a rare agreement with gro jo only to the extent I do think western influence plays a major part in how anime characters are drawn, which your post seems to implicitly deny.
Regardless, I think the central point about the “Default Human Being” are valid.
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It was NOT original with me. At the end I linked to a piece by Matt Thorn that the post was mainly based on, but apparently that was not clear enough to many people (59% according to the unscientific poll above).
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Interesting. I did not revisit the post prior to voting but googled the topic and your name kept popping up.
Good one! You sly fox you.
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“It was NOT original with me. ”
that’s not a bad thing.
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@ nomad
“that’s not a bad thing.’
apparently Matt Thorn thought it was….
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Many Filipinos consider themselves to be white. I’ve seen them say on at least one website. To be fair, very many of them are light complexioned.
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@Solitaire
so thorn thought it was bad that the idea was not original with abagond?
what? is he trying to pin it on abagond?
“he did it! not me!”
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Missed the poll but a longtime Anime fan and I would have voted that it was not original to you. I’ve read variations of this theme since at least the early nineties. On the old fansubs sites, many contained FAQs where the persistent question is why are anime characters drawn as white, often with white characteristics (blond hair, blue eyes, etc. . .). Answers varied from “they aren’t white they are just using methods to distinguish different characters better for the audience [after all, there aren’t any naturally pink, blue, or purple haired Asians running around either yet there they are]” to the significant impact Disney had on Japanese animation – thus the overuse of the big eyes, big head themes for cute characters.
I don’t know who Matt Thorn is but I would say the linked essay on your page is not necessarily original either – just more thought out than I’ve seen.
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@ nomad
LOL!
No, I noticed Abagond has removed his original post on the subject and now only has a link to Matt Thorn’s article. From that I assume Matt Thorn found Abagond’s article, got upset, and was accusing Abagond of plagarism or some such. It’s only an assumption; something or someone else may have sparked the whole thing.
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@ Joe
“Many Filipinos consider themselves to be white.”
That’s a new one on me. What I’ve mostly heard is the internal argument about whether they’re Asians or Pacific Islanders. Some consider themselves Hispanic but that’s generally in addition to being A/PI. There is a substantial percentage of the population who have some white heritage (primarily Spanish), but I’ve always heard them referred to as mestizo, not as white.
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@ Solitaire
You got it right. He saw my post and accused me of plagiarism, threatening legal action.
I did not regard it as plagiarism because I read his article, put it in my own words and linked to his piece, saying that it is what the post was mainly based on. (I had read some other articles, but mainly went with his ideas.)
He said that I would lose in court because 90% of readers would assume the ideas were original with me. I thought he was wrong, thus the poll.
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I must be part of that 10% who thought he was wrong.
I read about that idea way before I saw it on here, and not from Matt Thorn’s article. I wonder if Matt Thorn is actually the one who took the idea from someone else and called it his own.
I don’t have proof of this, so it might not be enough to justify to put the original article back.
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@ Abagond
Ouch. Sorry to hear I guessed correctly.
@ JMac @ Jefe
I totally agree — these ideas aren’t original with Matt Thorn, either. They’ve been discussed in anime/manga/comix circles since before the internet took off.
Also, his estimate was off because not 10% of those polled but 40% said the ideas weren’t original with Abagond. Only a quarter said they were; the rest weren’t sure. 40% may not have been enough for Abagond to win in court, though, and who really wants to get dragged into legal proceedings over a couple of blog posts?
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ok abagond u got me again 🙂
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“He said that I would lose in court because 90% of readers would assume the ideas were original with me. I thought he was wrong, thus the poll.”
That’s not quite how things work.
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He said that I would lose in court because 90% of readers would assume the ideas were original with me. I thought he was wrong, thus the poll.” – Abagond
“That’s not quite how things work.” – resw
You are correct resw, it doesn’t matter what the reading audience thinks about the situation. What truly matters is what a judge and jury would think within the confines of the laws. And in this situation, copyright laws would apply. If he did take Abagond to court, I’m almost certain he’d get laughed at, on his way out of court.
This is why it is so important in most instances to provide a link, in order to shift the burden away from yourself.
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“Many Filipinos consider themselves to be white.” – Joe
In response, Solitaire said: “That’s a new one on me.”
LOL! There is so much meat here, but I’m not going to go too deep. However, I’ll say that the original people of the Philippines islands are very dark skinned, small framed Aeta people with curly hair. The Spaniards came in and sprinkled their stuff, resulting in a lighter skinned people. Furthermore, the original, dark skinned peoples still exist today, mostly within the mountainous regions of the Philippines.
@Solitaire, you are correct, most Filipinos consider themselves to be of mestizo descent, which is a mixture of indigenous and Spaniard blood. In fact, most of the ones I’m acquainted with, if not all of them, keep their distance away from whites and do not refer to themselves as being as such.
circa 1901
circa 2015
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“I did not regard it as plagiarism because I read his article, put it in my own words and linked to his piece, saying that it is what the post was mainly based on. (I had read some other articles, but mainly went with his ideas.)”
Next time, try to ‘steal’ better ideas. His claims weren’t convincing. Next time, state at least two differing ideas on the subject and state why you liked one over the other. The way you wrote that post led me to believe you came up with that stuff. What does he want from you, removal of the post, some of that Racial Grievance Industry money Xpraetorius claims you’re rolling in, what?
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Got you all beat……
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mukokuseki
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@blakksage
“If he did take Abagond to court, I’m almost certain he’d get laughed at, on his way out of court.”
+1000. I don’t believe for a second that he would have taken abagond to court. Threatening legal action, however, can be just as effective, and in this case it was.
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Not a lawyer but a grad student who knows a bit about attribution, citations, etc.
As long as you properly attributed this idea to him, there should not be anything to worry about.
I am not even sure if he can claim this idea as his own, legally. He can claim that you plagiarized his work if you cannot prove that you have properly attributed his ideas to him but I am not sure that this is punishable by law. More that you’d be discredited in an academic setting, which blogging isn’t.
What your readers or general public think is irrelevant, I believe. As long as you clearly state in the article that the idea isn’t yours and as long as you properly cite him, well, I’d say there’s nothing he can do.
To be on the safe side, though, I’d add a stronger disclaimer at the beginning of the article. Also, remember that quoting (exact quotations) are not the only place where you need to mention him. Whenever you talk about a concept you take from him, you should cite him (Thorn YEAR).
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@ Mira
Thanks.
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@Abagond
408 responses to your post and only 2 comments Matt’s blog where she re-posted her 2004 essay. It seems like if it were important to her to create discussion around and/or raise awareness of the topic, she would have approached you in a less aggressive way. Perhaps seeking more clear attribution or additional referential clarity beyond your standard list of links at the end of every post… but still… threatening legal action as a means ensuring exclusivity on a thought?!?
It’s a shame too because your writing style, the subsequent discussions, etc.. were a way for the concepts to reach a significantly broader audience. Not being a person that is deeply into anime or Manga or comics or whatever, I never would have run across her blog on my own. With all due respect to Matt and her essay, it was your take on the concepts and your ability to make it relevant to a broader audience that gave me a new perspective.
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It’s a shame you took down the post. Even now seven years later, I remembered it as a particularly coherent explanation of the ideas, and was looking for it to forward to friend. Prof. Thorn is not half as eloquent as you are and the post you link to is not readily understandable by a layperson.
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Also, I 100% agree with the folks who have written that you would easily prevail in court. In order to prevail, Thorn would have to show that you actually lifted the text of his post, not just his ideas. See this FAQ: (under “What does Copyright protect?”)
https://ogc.harvard.edu/pages/copyright-and-fair-use
Plagiarism, as academics define it, is not illegal, so long as it does not violate copyright or other intellectual property laws.
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@ Marcus
Thanks. I thought that if anything I was doing him a favour by helping to spread his ideas and linking to his website.
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