Last night, September 26th 2016, was the first of three debates between Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republican Donald Trump. They are running for US president. So is Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party Jill Stein, but they are both polling under the 15% needed to take part.
It was the first time Clinton and Trump ever debated each other. Nearly 100 million people in the US watched on television – the largest audience either is likely to get before the election in November.
Debate points: Clinton clearly won on debate points. I thought Trump would be sharper and faster on his feet than he was. He let Clinton’s email scandal pretty much slide right on by without nailing her on it. It seemed he was playing defence most of the time, which is generally a sign of losing.
Job interview: If you see the debates as a sort of job interview, Clinton won at that level too: she seemed serious and ready to be president, while Trump seemed to be winging it.
Fact check: Unlike what Trump said:
- He did voice support for the Iraq War before it started.
- He did claim that climate change was a Chinese hoax.
- Stop-and-frisk was ruled unconstitutional and did not work “very well” in New York.
- NATO did not focus on terrorism because of his criticism.
- Clinton advisers did not press Birther stories hard.
- China is not totally powerful as it relates to North Korea.
- NAFTA was not a terrible trade deal, at least not for the US as a whole.
- The US did not “give away” $400 million to Iran. It was money the US owed to Iran.
- You would in fact find out more from his tax returns than from his financial disclosure to the Federal Election Commission.
- His father did not just give him a “very small loan” in 1975 – he gave or lent him at least another $73.5 million before he died in 1999.
Unlike what Clinton said:
- Trump has paid income tax, in at least three years: 1975, 1976 and 1977.
- She did say TPP was the “gold standard” in trade deals, though that was before the deal was complete.
Race: In the wake of the grim events of Charlotte and Tulsa last week, they were asked how they would “heal the divide” of race. Clinton spoke of “systemic racism”, probably a first in presidential debates, while Trump’s catchphrases were “law and order” (a Nixonian racist dog whistle) and “stop and frisk” (unconstitutional). Trump bragged about having the endorsement of the police unions! Apparently he will “heal the divide” by putting salt in the wound.
Birtherism: When asked why he did not admit President Obama was a US citizen till this year, five years after Obama produced his long-form birth certificate, Trump made it seem like he was doing Obama and the country some kind of favour! He did not feel he had anything to apologize for. He seemed to be stuck in some kind of right-wing conspiranoid bubble.
Verdict: Trump is clueless and unprepared.
– Abagond, 2016.
Sources: NPR, PolitiFact, Syracuse.com.
See also:
- 2016 election for US president
- Democrat: Hillary Clinton 2016
- Republican: Donald Trump
- Libertarian: Gary Johnson
- Green: Jill Stein
- poll
- Birtherism
- Republican Bubble
- racist dog whistle
- Charlotte and Tulsa
- Who talks about structural racism?
541
The picture you used illustrates the debate effectively (with Hillary as Godzilla firing her lasers into Trump.) Donald doing his usual monkeying around.
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Trump was clueless and unprepared by design.
His role is to be as outlandish as possible, being he is throwing his run for president, so Clinton can get elected as the first female president of America.
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Agreed. Please God, America, don’t elect Trump.
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A wise person wouldn’t be confident after watching either one of those individuals perform last night. This election is the embodiment of “the lesser of the two evils”.
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Whether something is “terrible”, “worked well”, “pushed hard” etc. are all subjective and cannot be fact checked.
“NATO was not pushed into fighting terrorism by him”
Trump never said (at least not in the debate) that he pushed NATO into fighting terrorism.
His quote about NATO that should’ve been fact-checked was his claim that US pays 73% of NATO’s budget, which is not true.
The worst part of the debate was that when asked about race relations “amplified by shootings of African-Americans by police”, neither Trump nor Hillary could even bring themselves to denounce police brutality and killing of innocent, unarmed black men.
If you had any doubts, there’s more proof that Hillary is just another racist who doesn’t give a damn about blacks.
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@resw
I changed the statement about NATO to:
What Trump said in the debate:
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@resw
NAFTA not being “terrible” meaning it did not cause high unemployment or a large net loss of jobs, which is the sense Trump meant it.
Stop and frisk not working “very well” means it did not lead to a huge drop in crime, the sense he meant it. The drop in crime was across the US and across the Western world, not just in New York. Stop and frisk had little to do with it.
Not pushing Birtherism “hard” is also not subjective. Of the two sources he cited, one was not about Birtherism and the other is based on hearsay, no written record of the time. If that is all he has, you can hardly say Clinton or her advisers pushed the issue “hard”.
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@abagond
“NAFTA not being “terrible” meaning it did not cause high unemployment or a large net loss of jobs, which is the sense Trump meant it.”
I don’t know what is meant by “large,” another subject word, but some economists do blame NAFTA for job losses, and some others that say job losses would’ve occurred anyway still say NAFTA accelerated the losses. It’s not cut and dry.
“Stop and frisk not working “very well” means it did not lead to a huge drop in crime”
Between 2002 (when stop and frisk began in NYC) and 2015, crime did in fact drop significantly in NYC. I do not think it is directly related in any way to stop and frisk, but people confuse causation with correlation all the time.
Also stop and frisk yielded 3% convictions, which is very small percentage-wise, but amounts to ~ 72,000 convictions.
So people like Giuliani can state factually that crime decreased after stop and frisk was implemented and it convicted 72,000 criminals.
So yes, it’s totally subjective whether it “worked well” in NYC or not.
“Not pushing Birtherism “hard” is also not subjective.”
Whether anything is done “hard” or “soft” is subjective.
“Of the two sources he cited, one was not about Birtherism and the other is based on hearsay”
Not sure what you’re referring to, but there’s indeed evidence that Hillary’s ’08 campaign wanted to use his “LACK of American roots” as an issue in the campaign: https://www.scribd.com/doc/4097983/Penn-Strategy-Memo-3-19-07.
Whether that’s “hard” or “soft” pushing is open to opinion, but it clearly shows her campaign planted the seeds of the birtherism movement.
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@ resw
Trump did not bring up that memo, nor does it question Obama’s citizenship. It questions Obama’s upbringing and values, not his place of birth.
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Phrases like “an open discussion about race” or “heal the divide” are such nonsense.
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@ resw Words mean something to some of us. When Mrs. Clinton said we have to do something about systemic racism it is important to remember she was in a debate which had a time limit.
What could be a better expression to imply that race was a problem, without getting loss in the weeds.
Perhaps those who wanted to have a more complete response to the race issue should prepare some acceptable remarks and submit them to Mrs. Clinton.
When one is thinking in such a debate they cannot form all of the words that are acceptable and complete.
Other then Abagon’s list of racist people which actually includes almost all whites and many African-American individuals there is nothing in the life of the Clinton’s that can be proven to be against the African-American community; also there are many steps that they have taken to assist in the upward mobility of the African-American community.
For those that are blind and deft and will accept nothing I am sure these word will not be heard or seen.
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@abagond
That’s disingenuous. A claim of his “LACK of American roots”, which isn’t even true, suggests place of birth is questionable or not American enough. That’s why the memo’s suggestion to Clinton was that “Every speech should contain the line you were BORN in the middle of America…”
@Allen Shaw
“there is nothing in the life of the Clinton’s that can be proven to be against the African-American community”
That is your opinion, and a very misguided one. They have both said and done many racist things.
“also there are many steps that they have taken to assist in the upward mobility of the African-American community”
Great, then it should be easy for you to name them.
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@ resw
If you want to bend words beyond the breaking point, and make a 97% failure rate mean “worked very well” and an upbringing in Hawaii and Indonesia mean “not born in the US”, then, yes, you can make anything Trump says wondrously and gloriously true. But to those not in his thrall, such statements are misleading at best.
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@abagond
You’re the one who attributed claims to Trump that he didn’t even make, and now you’re accusing someone of bending words. Got it. No, I quoted directly from the memo.
“and make a 97% failure rate mean “worked very well””
No, that’s the actual argument that Giuliani and people who support stop and frisk use. And they point to the reduction in crime that occurred and the fact that it produced roughly 72,000 convictions. That’s their opinion of success. Yours is different. That’s my point as to why “very well” is subjective. And it is.
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@ resw
What claims did I attribute to Trump that he did not make?
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That’s 72,000 out of 2,400,000 searches that violated the civil liberties of individuals because of “reasonable suspicion” which can mean anything and ignores probable cause, a higher threshold for arrests.
New York also has the higest rate of wrongful convictions of any state in the Union. While it’s probable that the zeal for arrests and convictions contributed to wrongful convictions I don’t think that you can draw a correlation with a drop in the murder rates since it has not gone up since “stop and frisk” was ended.
So Trump’s law and order campaign to “cut the red tape” really suggests thrashing the Constitution and the protections offerd to U.S. citizens. Trump wants to Federlize the entire police force and make “stop and frisk” a national campain to “make America safe again”.
Hillary got it right when she said the crime rate hadn’t gone up but what she gets wrong is that gun violence, like the crime statistics, have also decreased even though gun purchases and ownership has increased. Her version also attacks 2nd admendment rights as “reasonable”. She emphasized “respect” for authority and justice rather then call for equality in justice. I dont belive her promise for criminal justice reform is authentic. While it’s true she used the word “systemic racism” I belive she threw that out there for the benifit of progressives. She will talk the talk but I don’t trust her to bring about real change.
“Stop and frisk” applied to a national level would turn America into a police state. The police would search for weapons, prohibitions and terrorists as well as have the authority to question citizenship status.
From the ACLU.
“An analysis by the NYCLU revealed that innocent New Yorkers have been subjected to police stops and street interrogations more than 5 million times since 2002, and that black and Latino communities continue to be the overwhelming target of these tactics. Nearly nine out of 10 stopped-and-frisked New Yorkers have been completely innocent, according to the NYPD’s own reports:”
In 2002, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 97,296 times.
80,176 were totally innocent (82 percent).
In 2003, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 160,851 times.
140,442 were totally innocent (87 percent).
77,704 were black (54 percent).
44,581 were Latino (31 percent).
17,623 were white (12 percent).
83,499 were aged 14-24 (55 percent).
In 2004, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 313,523 times.
278,933 were totally innocent (89 percent).
155,033 were black (55 percent).
89,937 were Latino (32 percent).
28,913 were white (10 percent).
152,196 were aged 14-24 (52 percent).
In 2005, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 398,191 times.
352,348 were totally innocent (89 percent).
196,570 were black (54 percent).
115,088 were Latino (32 percent).
40,713 were white (11 percent).
189,854 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).
In 2006, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 506,491 times.
457,163 were totally innocent (90 percent).
267,468 were black (53 percent).
147,862 were Latino (29 percent).
53,500 were white (11 percent).
247,691 were aged 14-24 (50 percent).
In 2007, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 472,096 times.
410,936 were totally innocent (87 percent).
243,766 were black (54 percent).
141,868 were Latino (31 percent).
52,887 were white (12 percent).
223,783 were aged 14-24 (48 percent).
In 2008, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 540,302 times.
474,387 were totally innocent (88 percent).
275,588 were black (53 percent).
168,475 were Latino (32 percent).
57,650 were white (11 percent).
263,408 were aged 14-24 (49 percent).
In 2009, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 581,168 times.
510,742 were totally innocent (88 percent).
310,611 were black (55 percent).
180,055 were Latino (32 percent).
53,601 were white (10 percent).
289,602 were aged 14-24 (50 percent).
In 2010, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 601,285 times.
518,849 were totally innocent (86 percent).
315,083 were black (54 percent).
189,326 were Latino (33 percent).
54,810 were white (9 percent).
295,902 were aged 14-24 (49 percent).
In 2011, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 685,724 times.
605,328 were totally innocent (88 percent).
350,743 were black (53 percent).
223,740 were Latino (34 percent).
61,805 were white (9 percent).
341,581 were aged 14-24 (51 percent).
In 2012, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 532,911 times
473,644 were totally innocent (89 percent).
284,229 were black (55 percent).
165,140 were Latino (32 percent).
50,366 were white (10 percent).
In 2013, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 191,558 times.
169,252 were totally innocent (88 percent).
104,958 were black (56 percent).
55,191 were Latino (29 percent).
20,877 were white (11 percent).
In 2014, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 45,787 times.
37,744 were totally innocent (82 percent).
24,319 were black (53 percent).
12,489 were Latino (27 percent).
5,467 were white (12 percent).
In 2015, New Yorkers were stopped by the police 22,939 times.
18,353 were totally innocent (80 percent).
12,223 were black (54 percent).
6,598 were Latino (29 percent).
2,567 were white (11 percent).
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@Kartoffel
“Phrases like “an open discussion about race” or “heal the divide” are such nonsense.”
Very true. They are used to lull the unwary into believing that something of substance is being said or that real action will result from the “open discussion”.
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@michaeljonbarker
“So Trump’s law and order campaign to “cut the red tape” really suggests thrashing the Constitution and the protections offerd to U.S. citizens.”
That trip to the woodshed happened a long time ago. As far as the police, the military, judicial, executive and legislative branches are concerned the Constitution is a historical document with no real world applications they need respect.
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@abagond
“What claims did I attribute to Trump that he did not make?”
Really, you forgot that quickly?
abagond said: “NATO was not pushed into fighting terrorism by him”
resw said: “Trump never said (at least not in the debate) that he pushed NATO into fighting terrorism.”
abagond said: “I changed the statement about NATO to: “NATO did not focus on terrorism because of his criticism.””
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Allen Shaw
“there is nothing in the life of the Clinton’s that can be proven to be against the African-American community”
What? Did you forget about mass incarceration? Super predators? Who was that against?
Trump and Hillary. Two sides of the same coin.
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@nomad
Just look at her response to the question “Do you believe that police are implicitly biased against black people?”
“Lester, I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police”
She couldn’t even bring herself to say “yes”, to what is a simple yes or no question.
And even worse:
“There are the right ways of doing it, and then there are ways that are ineffective. Stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutional and, in part, because it was ineffective. It did not do what it needed to do.”
Since when is “ineffective” an antonym of “right”. Any sane person knows that something is either right or wrong.
To think, the so-called “progressive” candidate can’t even say that racial profiling is wrong, racist, etc.
Contrast that with the CONSERVATIVE British Prime Minister Theresa May who said:
“It is correct that if you’re black you will be treated more harshly in the criminal justice system. It’s exactly why as Home Secretary I dealt with the issue of stop and search. I was concerned to make sure that nobody should be stopped and searched on the streets of this country because of the colour of their skin.”
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It is hopeless situation everybody. No matter who becomes president it is still up to Congress and the Supreme court as to what policies take effect on the country for the most part. I’m not going to vote and I don’t give 2 shits about it.
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TeddyBearDaddy
As long as you’re going to throw your vote away anyway, vote for Jill Stein. If everybody voted their conscience instead of being thralls to the duopoly we’d be out of this mess in a flash. I suggest, instead of not voting, do something revolutionary.
“People who call themselves leftists or progressives have only one choice. They must work to replace the Democrats with a new and truly progressive party. The Green Agenda opposes American interventions abroad and Democratic Party trade deals which bestow corporate personhood and steal jobs. The Green Party pledges to abolish student debt, close U.S. military bases abroad, establish health care as a human right and provide constitutional protection for the franchise. All of the issues that matter to progressives are on the green party agenda.”
All of the issues that matter if we could just overcome are two party mind programming. The answer to our problems is in the mirror.
Third party can’t win? Remember way back I dunno a decade or so when we thought we’d never have a black president? Well, we were wrong. Well, half wrong anyway. There is no better time to break the back of the duopoly. Behold the two most hated candidates it has ever offered. Vote for neither of these psychopaths. Vote human. Vote for a human.
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All of the issues that matter if we could just overcome OUR two party mind programming
http://www.blackagendareport.com/vote_green_not_a_protest
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@ nomad
While I understand that you have a superior ability to see into the future, most of us just go by the immediate requirements.
Looking back on the the beginning, my recollection was some individuals demanding that something be done about the crack cocaine that was devastating the Black community. Thereafter the new three strikes and life came to be.
That was then, now is now and we know better!
Now today you can blame the Clinton’s for a law that was passed by congress and basically accepted by everyone at the time, because the law was misused by the general public. The federal government is not the main user of the three strike law.
The fact is the law only allowed the continuation of the same policies that had existed for the past 150 years called Jim Crow. President Clinton did not write the law, he just signed the federal law that he thought many Black leaders wanted and was recommended by a professional staff.
Who at that time had any idea that it would end up being responsible for “Mass Incarceration”.
Where were you when the laws were passed and did you voice your thoughts about the law at that time?
Can you produce any articles that were written at the time the laws were passed that were against the laws?
Laws seem to have been passed by states separately and the President had nothing to do with them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federal_Sentencing_Guidelines#Enabling_legislation
“The Guidelines are the product of the United States Sentencing Commission, which was created by the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984.[3] The Guidelines’ primary goal was to alleviate sentencing disparities that research had indicated were prevalent in the existing sentencing system, and the guidelines reform was specifically intended to provide for determinate sentencing. This refers to sentencing whose actual limits are determined at the time the sentence is imposed, as opposed to indeterminate sentencing, in which a sentence with a maximum (and, perhaps, a minimum) is pronounced but the actual amount of time served in prison is determined by a parole commission or similar administrative body after the person has started serving his or her sentence. As part of the guidelines reform in 1984, parole on federal level was abolished.
The federal effort followed guidelines projects in several states, initially funded by the United States Department of Justice, and led by Jack Kress and his research team during the late 1970s. The first sentencing guidelines jurisdictions were county-wide, in Denver, Newark, Chicago and Philadelphia. Statewide guidelines systems were next established in Utah, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Michigan, Washington, and Delaware, before the federal sentencing guidelines were formally adopted in 1987. Given that the vast majority of criminal sentencing is done at the state level, the American Law Institute and the American Bar Association have each recommended such systems for all the states, and nearly half the states presently have such systems, although significant variations exist among them. For example, Minnesota’s Sentencing Guidelines Commission initially sought consciously not to increase prison capacity through guidelines. That is, Minnesota assumed that the legislature should determine how much would be spent on prisons and that the sentencing commission’s job was to allocate those prison beds in as rational a way as possible. The federal effort took the opposite approach. It determined how many prisons would be needed and Congress was then essentially required to fund those beds.”
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Three+Strikes+Laws
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_Reform_Act 1984
Stop blaming Mrs Clinton for the actions of the Clinton Administration and the actions of the states.
If you do not care for Mrs. Clinton find some problem to report that is relative to her.
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@ nomad
“Super predators” did you really hear the words that Mrs Clinton spoke or did you prefer to change their meaning. She referred to “some of the “gangs””.
What would you call the worse of “some of the gangs” if they are not “super predators whether they are Black, White or Hispanic?
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“What would you call the worse of “some of the gangs””
racist propaganda
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And I take umbrage to the chaos she caused in Africa
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You choose to not listen! She did not specify race she referred to a district that you assume contains only Blacks.
She did the African thing all by herself, right?
Can you describe what she did?
Mrs. Clinton has made mistakes; however you choose to generalize because you do not really study issues.
Your choice The Donald or Mrs Clinton. When you get the Donald you get the return of the “Worse of the Jim Crow”. That is what he mean when he says he is going to get America Back.
You probably need to wake up and face your realities!
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Allen Shaw
Like I say, racist propaganda. You can buy it if you want to. Hillary is every bit the racist Trump is. His is in your face. Hers is stab you in the back. That’s the only difference. Did you see what her foundation did to Haiti?
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“Can you describe what she did?”
She killed Gadhafi..
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@ nomad
So she put her hands around his neck and killed him dead dead dead!
None of his enemies had anything to do with it, just the Secretary of State all by herself.
Not the French not the other nations involved just Mrs Clinton went over there and killed that “poor poor poor man” all by herself!
And he never hurt a flea, that generous kind wonderful leader and all of his people mourned his loss!
I do not believe you are in touch with reality!
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“In order to boost participation, Clinton should come out stronger in her support for victims of police violence. She talks about needing to restore trust. One of the best ways to restore trust is getting justice for those who have been shot by the police.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09/29/rethinking-the-race-over-race-what-clinton-should-do-now-about-super-predators/
Don’t hold your breath. Chirp chirp.
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@ nomad
“Did you see what her foundation did to Haiti?”
No could you provide me with documented facts about the Clinton Foundation, which Mrs Clinton does not have anything to do with on an operational basis, which concerns Haiti?
Be factual – do not say you heard!
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“So she put her hands around his neck and killed him dead dead dead!”
Don’t be silly. None of the murderers in public office do the killing themselves. They just give the orders.
Did Obama put his hands around Osama’s neck and killed him dead dead dead!??? Yet he brags about doing it, just as Clinton cackles over Gaddafi.
“I do not believe you are in touch with reality!”
Back atcha.
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“Be factual – do not say you heard!”
You be factual. I’ll do as I please.
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I mean you be “factual”. In quotes.
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@ nomad
“Clinton should come out stronger in her support for victims of police violence.”
Lets face it nothing that Mrs. Clinton can say or do is going to be satisfactory, when it comes to racial relations.
You are an anti Mrs. Clinton person and are failing to produce any real problems.
You are grasping at straws; however your successful defeat of Mrs. Clinton will bring “the Donald” to the throne King Donald I.
Please try to remember a little history of the sad fate of Germany. You will then know what he means when he said he is going to “take America back”.
***** ***** ***** *****
But wait a moment, maybe you are a pro Trump “take America back” person intruding on this site. “A wolf in sheep’s clothing”.
The poverty rate among White people in the old America was quite high, and the only advantage they had was “they were not Black”. I am speaking about prior to WW II. That is where King Donald I will take you.
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“Lets face it nothing that Mrs. Clinton can say or do is going to be satisfactory”
Because everything she says is a lie. And everybody, except you apparently, knows it. If Trump wins, you and all you other Clintonites will be getting exactly what you deserve.
http://www.blackagendareport.com/america_deserves_trump
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Allen Shaw
“there is nothing in the life of the Clinton’s that can be proven to be against the African-American community”
What Stein had to say about it:
“it was Bill Clinton’s omnibus crime bill of the 1990s, which Hillary supported, that opened the floodgates to mass incarceration and to this assault by police and the criminal injustice system on communities of color. So, indeed, that bill, that she herself promoted, saying how we needed to, quote, ‘bring them to heel,’ referring to African-American communities and youth”
http://www.blackagendareport.com/great_debate_that_never_was
Who was that against?
“Stop blaming Mrs Clinton for the actions of the Clinton Administration and the actions of the states.”
Again, quit trying to tell me what to do. I am not a mind slave.
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Well the last time I checked Congress passed laws and the President signed them.
No one could foresee the results of the law at the time it was passed!
Your distortion along with others about the past does not make it a fact.
You are correct you can say anything you want to and it is up to those who read to make up their minds.
History is there for anyone who wants to study it and if people want to believe the rhetoric of people who disguise the facts they will. After all the people of Germany listened to the propaganda of Joseph Goebbels who could convince them that they were truly superior people.
You do not win when you ignore my request for you to present the facts, you just prove yourself to be a propagandist. Eventually others will recognize your deception.
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“You are correct” thank you “you can say anything you want to and it is up to those who read to make up their minds.”
Thank you. That is quite magnanimous. So let’s let them. Show of hands. How many out there think Hillary’s positions on Africa (Libya) Haiti and mass incarceration were and probably still are racist?
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“How many out there think Hillary’s positions on Africa (Libya) Haiti and mass incarceration were and probably still are racist?”
.
No doubt!!!!
A word to the wise though.. at some point you’ve got to realize that debating a bobble head isn’t going to get you anywhere. Except maybe somewhere comedic.
Imagine standing next to a bunch of people watching a parade where the King is naked. At least that’s what you see! But most everyone else sees the King decked out in purple robes contrasted by glorious golden threads from the kingdom’s finest tailors. Someone is seeing an illusion. Is it you, or them?
Sometimes you just have to let those folks see what they want to see and make better constructive/educational/entertaining use of your time. There are some, no matter the evidence given, you’ll never convince 1+1=2.
And there are some that think the Clintons are genuinely GOOD people, (and that Satan is a good angel – just simply misunderstood) despite all the mounds of evidence to the contrary.
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Fan …
Thanks. I didn’t throw in the Hillary imitating the birther thing. Because I don’t think that was racist. It was a legitimate concern.
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Hillary initiating
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Abagond,
after spending some time at home (Jamaica), it’s nice to be back in the USA to see that nothing has changed!
I enjoyed watching that debate. I even felt embarrassed for Donald – Hillary made him look stupid but she really needed to have hit him harder.
Men only respect strength and Hillary used to be strong back in the day – I need the old Hillary to come back swinging hard.
She had real b’lls back in the 80’s- 90’s, that’s why the Republicans were always scared of her and have worked overtime now to make her look bad.
Hillary’s too tame now… Angela Merkel used to be in the Stasi (East German government spy agency, like CIA or KGB)… I like my female leaders to be hard — it keeps the bad boys like Donald in line.
All I got to say is this: if Americans vote this man into power, then you all deserve everything that comes out of it
This man is a rich dumba’s who doesn’t give a sh’t about anyone – he does what he wants, when he wants, because his money is long and as he himself has said, he hires “really smart people”
It’s one thing to hang out in the back of the math class, with the dumb kids who crack jokes – they are funny and entertaining
but you’re not suppose to elect them to be class “leader” if they can’t pass a math test without cheating off your paper.
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Angela Merkel used to be in the Stasi (East German government spy agency, like CIA or KGB)…
Hey Linda! Long time no talk, I hope you’re doing good.
I was surprised by your comment about Merkel having a Stasi past. I don’t see any info in Merkel’s wiki about a Stasi past.
Also, the following article points out that her lack of connection to the Stasi was a key factor in starting a political career:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/angela-merkels-unlikely-journey-from-communist-east-germany-to-the-chancellorship-a6738271.html
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I don’t see how any sane person can vote for Hillary. I don’t see how any sane person can vote for Trump. But we are talking about America. So sanity is not their strong suit. Sane people on both sides are voting against these psychopaths. Of course, that generally means they are voting for the other monster. Kinda cancelling each other out. If they were really sane they’d vote green.
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The debate that should have been.
(https://youtu.be/Gmu2glcDqJ0)
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Forgot to LOL@ abagond’s statement that “It seemed he was playing defence most of the time, which is generally a sign of losing.”
Lester Holt’s bias was clear considering he asked far more direct (Trump-specific) questions to Trump than to Hillary.
You’d think Holt would’ve asked her why she lied about serious national security matters:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgeuLn4AkXk)
But I guess hearsay about calling Miss America “Miss piggy” is more important.
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@resw
The truth is sadder than that: Hillary Clinton is playing Trump like a flute. She is pressing his buttons and he is falling for it like the buffoon that he is. The troll is being trolled. LOL.
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Hey Legion
nice to see you too… glad you’re back from self-exile
I have friends from former east Communist bloc countries (Slovakia, Czech, former Yugoslavia, Poland, east Germany) and this rumor about Angela has always been there and based on how she has held power, I believe it.
From what my friends have they told me, during Communist rule (regardless of country) most people or their parents, had to be part of the Party (communist) in order to climb high in their respective governments, go to University, or hold management positions in government controlled corporations.
as far as news stories about Angela and the Stasi… I’ve never read any but since you mentioned it, I looked some up:
Angela Merkel was a member of the Free German Youth (FDJ), the official youth movement sponsored by the ruling Socialist Unity Party in East Germany.
Angela’s father defected from West Germany to East Germany??? who and why in all that is holy !
http://www.dystopiaearth.com/?p=3276
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@ Linda
Yup.
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Resw @ Lester Holt’s bias was clear considering he asked far more direct (Trump-specific) questions to Trump than to Hillary.
Linda says,
Res, leave my Jamaican boy Lester alone 🙂
Your boy Donald didn’t need no help in looking stoopid! …he did that all by himself.
we have a saying in Jamaica: “Cockroach nuh business inna fowl fight”
Meaning, Donald had no business on that stage since he did not prepare himself – that’s why he couldn’t handle Hillary
he’s needs to go sit down and plan
how to rob money from peoplebuild another hotelBeing that I do some real estate on the side, I’ve always liked Donald and his brashness (very amusing) but everyone in Real Estate knows Donald’s a thief… he likes to cheat people.
There’s a saying in Real Estate: caveat emptor (buyer beware)
well anyone doing business with Donald had to keep that motto in the back of their mind.
That’s why Barbara Corcoran (from Shark Tank show) had to sue his a’s back in the day (2005) because he cheated her. Even though a judge overturned the judgement in favor of Donald, he’s bad news in business
He don’t pay his workers or contractors if he gets mad at them.
http://www.miamiherald.com/entertainment/ent-columns-blogs/jose-lambiet/article91353232.html
according to the lawsuit, Trump allegedly tried to stiff The Paint Spot on its last payment of $34,863 on a $200,000 contract for paint used in the renovation of the home of golf’s famed Blue Monster two years ago.
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^^^ Right, people forget that Trump is a political amateur. Most people have made their way up through state politics by the time they hit the national stage. Trump, instead, came up through the New York media, so he knows how to play the media, but that is about it. He is a Potemkin candidate: there is no there there.
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@abagond
“The truth is sadder than that: Hillary Clinton is playing Trump like a flute.”
Great opinion. But it has nothing to do with Holt’s biased moderation or the substance of the debate.
@Linda
“Res, leave my Jamaican boy Lester alone”
Why?
He could have asked Hillary why she couldn’t even denounce the killings of innocent black men or call for the prosecution of the murdering racist police officers.
He could have called out her hypocrisy of complaining about “over-incarceration” when she was the one who lobbied for the The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, which increased the rate of incarceration and of which her own husband said “I signed a bill that made the problem worse. And I want to admit it.”
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HRC was prepared the little that I saw Trump is just a clown. He bought a butter knife to a gun fight.
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@resw
From what I understand both sides agree on the moderator. Sounds like you are just sore that Holt did not do Trump’s job for him. From what I saw, Trump had openings to nail Clinton on emails and over-incarceration, but let them slide by. I was surprised. Seems he was too busy protecting his tremendous ego.
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Resw @Linda: Why?
He could have asked Hillary why she couldn’t even denounce the killings of innocent black men or call for the prosecution of the murdering racist police officers.
Linda says,
Resw, if your boy Donald had his sh’t together, he should have brought it up himself when Lester asked him about “the state of race in America?”
Lester’s wasn’t there to think for Trump, just to softly lead.
Lester asked them both the same questions and he asked each one about things that pertain solely to them
the real question about the crime bill should be: “what is Hillary going to do now about the mass incarceration of black/brown men?”
That’s what’s relevant in 2016… the real hypocrites are the people who expect her to atone for sh’t she said 20+ years ago but are Okey-dokey with letting Donald slide for his racist shenanigans
what’s good for goose, is good for the gander
Why should Hillary apologize 3 times for a bill her Husband signed into law,
when Trump won’t even apologize once for something he Personally did: not letting black people rent his apartments
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/12/15/doj-trump-s-early-businesses-blocked-blacks.html
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Iread somewhere that he didn’t even bother to prepare for the debate.
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It was Miss Universe he referred to as Miss Piggy.
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I understand voting for the lesser evil. “Lesser evil” ’cause she ain’t really lesser. But I don’t understand the rooting for her. If King Kong wins, he gon’ destroy the city. If Godzilla wins, he gon’ destroy the city. These guys are fighting to see who gets to beat you with a stick. I know yall think Massa Don will hit harder than Miss Ann, But I dunno.
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@abagond
“From what I understand both sides agree on the moderator.”
LOL. Holt can’t be biased to both, by definition. The FACT that he asked far more Trump-specific questions than Hillary-specific
questions makes it clear he was biased in favour of Hillary.
But that’s only if you’re looking at it objectively.
“From what I saw, Trump had openings to nail Clinton on emails and over-incarceration, but let them slide by.”
While I’m not sure what Republican would want to appear soft on crime, Trump said plenty on emails:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuP1YYqg5TM)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaW7c55etvQ)
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@Linda
“Lester’s wasn’t there to think for Trump, just to softly lead”
I don’t recall asking anyone to think for anyone else. Since Lester Holt is a purported journalist, I only expected him to behave like one.
“Lester asked them both the same questions and he asked each one about things that pertain solely to them”
Correct, and the difference was that Holt asked FAR MORE questions that “pertain solely to” Trump than Hillary. It’s simple maths.
“Why should Hillary apologize 3 times for a bill her Husband signed into law”
Don’t make me laugh. Hillary apologised half-assed (while also defending herself, I might add) in 2016 after being questioned about it several times on the campaign trail.
She advocated for the bill before it was signed, then spent 20 years defending for it. Michelle Obama never advocated for similar bills that target racial groups or take away their constitutional rights, like Obama’s draconian National Defense Authorization Act.
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resw @ She advocated for the bill before it was signed, then spent 20 years defending for it. Michelle Obama never advocated for similar bills that target racial groups or take away their constitutional rights, like Obama’s draconian National Defense Authorization Act.
Linda says,
So Donald denying black people the opportunity to rent one of his apartments based on the colour of their skin– is not taking away their constitutional rights?
He didn’t target a specific racial group when he focused on denying black people entry into his apartments?
He knowingly broke the law, that your black American ancestors fought hard to get:
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/FHLaws
em>
that’s why the government sued his a’s.. 3 times
If you are OK with turning a blind eye to Donald’s racist acts, then I’m OK with not holding Hillary to her words, which were in support of her Husbands bill.
and since the NAACP and other black leaders were also in support of that same crime bill law at the time,
then, I hope you also feel it necessary for them to apologize to you and the rest of black America as well… since you’re so concerned about “fairness”
Many black leaders saw the notoriously harsh law as an imperfect solution to unbearable levels of urban crime.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2016/02/why_many_black_politicians_backed_the_1994_crime_bill_championed_by_the.html
Lester did his job — your boy was just too dumb to do his
you’re defending your pig because you like him… good for you
but don’t expect other people to make excuses for him or blame Lester/ Hillary for his weaknesses.
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nomad @ “I understand voting for the lesser evil. “Lesser evil” ’cause she ain’t really lesser. But I don’t understand the rooting for her. These guys are fighting to see who gets to beat you with a stick. I know yall think Massa Don will hit harder than Miss Ann, But I dunno.”
Linda says,
My opinion… people have to support and vote for the candidate that meets their minimal standards
because no candidate has Ever been perfect or will meet all your requirements
Like I said, I like Donald Trump as the entertaining character that he is but my minimum requirements for having someone “lead” me — is that they need to at least appear smarter than I am
Donald is not “smart” just because his is rich. Donald is rich because his daddy was rich…he is no intellectual giant.
He is just smart enough and rich enough, to have a good team of people working for him but that doesn’t stop him from making mistakes that cost a lot of money.
I don’t trust Donald with my money or the economy. Bankruptcy is not a virtue–it’s a legal way to cheat your creditors.
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pressed the key to early, to continue my response to Nomad:
Hillary is rich because she also got a leg up and worked it, but she is intellectual smart…she meets my minimum requirement.
I also like that she is tough and I’m glad she has the rumors about having body counts behind her…that might keep her enemies in check…
people with power do not fear Donald Trump, they think he is a clown
but the main reason I support Hillary: Her husband Bill took a sh’tty economy and turned it around. I’m hoping that she can use that knowledge to make this economy better.
Most people who didn’t make money in the 80s with Reagan, definitely made money in the 90s with Bill Clinton. I don’t know if you remember those days, but it was prosperous times after daddy Bush messed up the economy with his war and policies that did not work
Bill wasn’t perfect either, because offshoring started with him and so did the dot.com market crash in 2000 but corporate greed is forever and no one can control that.
and there will never be a candidate that will place the needs of black or brown American people first — the USA is white majority, and it’s leaders care first about white people… anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves
I come from a country that is led by black and brown people (Jamaica)… after 50+ years, we’re Still waiting for our leaders to place the needs of the people first.
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“I come from a country that is led by black and brown people (Jamaica)… after 50+ years, we’re Still waiting for our leaders to place the needs of the people first.”
Sounds to me like the color of the skin is inconsequential. It may lie in the content of character. Black crooks. White crooks. Male crooks. Female crooks. The problem is not the gender or race. The problem is the crookedness. I myself don’t ask much of my candidates. Just don’t be a crook. You don’t have to be perfect. But there is a line on that spectrum of honesty
that’s a bridge too far. Hillary is one of the crookedest people to ever walk the face of the earth. Some people can stomach that degree of wickedness. More power to ’em. (Figure of speech of course). Actually those enablers of wickedness are precisely what ails this nation.
Hey, I don’t say don’t vote for her. But cheering for her is obscene.
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@Linda
You have no idea how much I have missed seeing your comments.
@Legion
I see you creeping in. 🙂
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Her Sharina, it’s good to see you too
I’m glad things have settled down, it was wayyy too crazy last time I was here.
Nomad@
Maybe because I come from a black/brown majority country, run by black/brown people – I’ve learned early that just because people might look like you, doesn’t mean they have your best interest at heart (so, I surely did not have expectations from Obama)
and also because the leaders of my country were also corrupt and dealt with big crooks from the USA or Europe, I set the bar low on just how much thievery is acceptable since I immigrated to the land of the thieves.
to me, I don’t think Hillary is as big a crook as Donald.. I just don’t see it.
She’s done more good than harm… Donald hasn’t done sh’t to uplift anyone but his own pocketbook
Trump is an active crook that thinks he should be rewarded for being a crook… that type of narcissism, I cannot support
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@Linda
His crimes, such as they may have been, were business crimes. Hers war crimes. A different order of evil. Admittedly Donald might turn out to be bloodthirsty too, once in office. But he ain’t killed nobody yet. I don’t know. Maybe somebody can tell me. Does he have a string of mysteriously dead associates in his business background? And effing over the election process with DNC fraud. I believe Hillary exceeds Donald in crookedness. And have you seen the faked rally videos? Oh yeah. She is very very crooked.
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@Linda
“Maybe because I come from a black/brown majority country, run by black/brown people – I’ve learned early that just because people might look like you, doesn’t mean they have your best interest at heart ”
That’s what I’ve always wondered about the Obama hysteria. Even long after Obama revealed himself to be politically anti-black (deeply conservative) , black people supported him by an astonishing overwhelming majority. All he had to offer was the color of his skin. That could have never happened in a black/brown majority country. Can’t help but think that black Americans have been subjected to some kind of secret mind control weapon.
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“Can’t help but think that black Americans have been subjected to some kind of secret mind control weapon.”
.
Sometimes things are best hidden in plain sight!
The weapon Black Amerikans were subjected to was – The FIRST BLACK POTUS. The system of white supremacy is very clever when it comes to revising racism!
Lesson: we need to be wary nowadays of anyone who is introduced as a Black person in any vaunted position … and more concerned about any supposedly powerful Black individual’s character, merit and intentions.
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An agent of white supremacy? Absolutely. He heads up the brown people bombing cabal. (https://youtu.be/GHZtQsKQg7c)
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LOM
It’s inerrable of you to confirm to all that your over consumption of white irish spirits which imbue the formation of blood clots in your puny brain is also causing your severe dementia and manic-depressive psychosis.
I’ve always known that you was a racist. Now (with those pics) you’ve, without any doubt whatsoever, proven it!
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“Obama is a centrist. Yes. A moderate.”
Not a centrist, not a moderate. Slightly to the right of George W. Bush.
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He’s so far right, when he tried to cut social security, even the Republicans said “You’ve gone too far!!!”
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Nomad @ That’s what I’ve always wondered about the Obama hysteria. Even long after Obama revealed himself to be politically anti-black (deeply conservative), black people supported him by an astonishing overwhelming majority. All he had to offer was the color of his skin. That could have never happened in a black/brown majority country. Can’t help but think that black Americans have been subjected to some kind of secret mind control weapon.
Linda says,
Nomad, you’re comparing apples to oranges
white supremacy unfortunately affected all of us, in different ways, no matter what country.
In most black/brown countries, our parent/grandparents had to fight to get rid of our white colonial masters, so that brown-skinned people could be the leaders of their own country.
black Americans in contrast, were fighting to be treated as human beings in their own country- just to have the right to not be lynched/killed by white men, the right to walk through the front door of public building, the right to sit in a class next to a white child, etc… {the right to live in one pf Donald Trumps apartments}
Most black/brown countries did not have to fight for those basic things in 1960s but your parents/grandparents did.
Our enemies wore the same white skin colour but we had two very different internal struggles
Colourism is still a factor in the Caribbean, so if anything, politics would not even be viewed through the same lenses as black America.
In Jamaica, after Independance from England, our Prime Ministers were “brown” men (light skinned, mixed-race) – that’s the category Obama would have fallen into.
So, Obama would have been viewed as a typical politician and the Jamaican people would have voted for him based on political Party affiliation or personality
but when given the opportunity to do something Historic in Jamaica, the people went against the establishment and voted for a man with 2 black parents and dark brown skin: PJ Patterson
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/-Too-black-to-be-prime-minister—The-shackles-of-mental-slavery_16043736
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If Obama was Jamaican, he would have been seen as another “brown” man trying to be the leader and that is nothing special – that’s the same old, same old
PJ Patterson on the other hand, was seen as the first real “black” man to lead Jamaica and he received support from the majority of black people based on that fact
but now that Jamaican society has gotten past that skin-colour barrier, it’s back to business as usual, and our leaders are more or less back to being judged on “who they are and what they promise to do for you”
Even though we have internal racism issues that still play out in our society, the people are not immune to supporting someone based on “race”, if it comes down to a black versus white dynamic – because of our history with white colonial rule.
________________________________________
I won’t touch on your statement about Obama being conservative and Anti-black because I don’t understand your thought pattern and I find it disturbing
Obama’s election symbolized breaking down the barrier over one of the largest obstacles in the world … that was the hope and change.
And because of History, the white American establishment, who built the USA through theft and murder, was never going to let Obama actually change and Lead the USA any way he wanted…. That’s why I said black American people were being willfully blind
That’s why it’s important to remember and honour History… forgetting history can get people killed.
Because of your history, black Americans had a duty to support ANY black or brown man with African blood because your black American ancestors fought for and Died for your right to Vote.
Now that Obama has broken the entry barrier into the White House, you now have the luxury, to put race aside and vote with your conscience
but please, do not disparage one of the biggest Historical accomplishments that has tilted the white supremacist world on it’s axis…Obama becoming President of one of the most racist countries on Earth
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“If so, you’d know that I was showing examples of racist right-wing imagery that I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE.”
What’s that white songstress’ name? Cyndi Lauper?
Figured I’d use a “white” singer because everyone here knows how well you don’t relate to Black people.
TRUE COLORS
“Your true colors are shining through…
…
Its hard to take courage
In a world full of people
You can lose sight of it all
And the darkness inside you
Can make LOM feel so small
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@LoM
It is true, you did add a disclaimer. I saw the 4chan logo and was not surprised by that imagery. That sort of sentiment and racist silliness is rife there. Obama Derangement Syndrome on full display.
” Unconscionably weak in the face of corporate power, and even subservient to it. Yes. Open to criticism? Absolutely…. An agent of white supremacy? “
Obama is not “weak” or merely “subservient” in the face of corporate power, he is a full blown corporatist. He is fully on-board with the neo-liberal project and has been since childhood.
He was selected by the White Power Establishment to advance their cause. Bush II make such a mess of things. They needed a clean up man—–and he gleefully volunteered.
It started out well. He got the anti-war people to stand down. The rest of the Left dissolved itself. Even those “troublesome” Black people fell on their knees in a senseless stupor for six years while the cops went “buck wild” in the streets.
Systemic White Supremacy at its finest.
He would have axed Social Security if it were not for the intransigence of the Repubs (thank goodness for small favors!). Now he is plotting to ram the TPP, TiSA and TTIP through Congress after the election during the lame duck session. They are not “trade deals”, they are global corporate governance documents (also supported by HRClinton).
What a guy!
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“Now that Obama has broken the entry barrier into the White House, you now have the luxury, to put race aside and vote with your conscience
but please, do not disparage one of the biggest Historical accomplishments that has tilted the white supremacist world on it’s axis…Obama becoming President of one of the most racist countries on Earth”
Where to start with this? Interesting history and yet it seems to affirm my point that his skin color would have been no novelty in a black brown nation and therefore people would have been able to evaluate him according to his politics rather than take his skin color as some kind of symbolic boon. Fooey on that. We don’t have the luxury to put race aside. We are still dying in the streets and neo-enslaved in the penal system. This so-called historical accomplishment hasn’t done a damn thing but made things worse. Preempting any genuine black presidency. Because this one was a fraud created and implemented by the CIA. Fooeyon that historical accomplishment horse pucky.
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@nomad
“An agent of white supremacy? Absolutely. He heads up the brown people bombing cabal. ”
Amazing the type of double standards you hear from some of the same people who lambasted Bush for doing the same.
And Hillary Clinton will only continue the brown bombing. Her Libyan invasion and destruction, against the wishes of the Joint Chiefs is the prime example.
And who can forget her purely evil comment afterwards while laughing, “We came, we saw, they died!” or her strong support for both the Syrian and Iraqi wars, which combined cost millions of brown lives.
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“To paraphrase Terence Fletcher from “Whiplash,” can you even f-cking read the Latin alphabet? If so, you’d know that I was showing examples of racist right-wing imagery that I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE. ”
@lom
If you despise it so much, why would you pick up that pile of disrespectful crap you call imagery and bring it here to a site where the main topics are things related to racism and Black people?
You’re lost. This isn’t your home. Not even a little bit. What do you and your white irish icons have in common with Black people? In all the time you’ve spent here you’ve not learned how to participate with or engage in matters pertinent to Black people.
If the best you can do is supposedly show examples of racist right-wing imagery – as if we don’t already know, even better you, what that looks like, then you missed your calling — a white robe and pointy white dunce cap.
Wear your odorous racist garb proudly, just wear it somewhere not here.
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@LoM
Yes, I would have backed Sanders if he’d been nominated. I would have expected a level of betrayal from him, too. Otherwise he would be “bumped off”
(assassinated). Presidents are just figureheads. Another cabal actually runs the country.
At least Sanders wouldn’t have started out a crook like Trump or Clinton, just well meaning and ineffectual.
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“You know, I forgot to call you out on using a racist stereotype …”
.
Which stereotype would that be?
The one about the formation of blood clots in your puny brain, or your severe dementia and manic-depressive psychosis?
“I am not going to be the one to drag this thread off topic…”
Too late Bozo!
Got any more racist pictures you think we need to see??
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“Maybe I was just setting myself up for an even bigger disappointment than Obama.”
.
LOL … Sounds like you’ve been looking in the mirror!!!
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This goes to show how depraved Hillary is. “How should we handle Assange, Hillary?” “Can’t we just drone him?”
(https://youtu.be/0Km6OkYZPDE)
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Just a thought. If they did drone Assange but also killed a bunch of white people around him as collateral damage, can you imagine the worldwide outrage? When bad bombs happen to white people…
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As far as foreign policy is concerned, there will be no difference no matter which of the two is president. The drone bombing will continue, the wars will happen when the military industrial complex pleases, the American military and economic terrorism will continue.
And I’m not sure if there will be a lot of difference in domestic policies as well. For instance, what did the Democrats do when something as outrageous as the Flint water crisis happened?
Both are avowed pro-corporate, anti-poor, both are racist, to different degrees perhaps, but how significant that difference is is yet to be seen, both will play by the rules of a system bigger than either of them and neither shows a spirit of resistance at the moment.
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Nomad cracks me up. I heard about the Hillary drone rumor too. He decided against releasing the info from the embassy balcony due to security concerns.
Here is another senerio. The U.S. Government cuts a deal with him to not release the emails and Assange gets his freedom back.
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@anglesanddimensions
Well said!
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@LoM
Some say JFK stood up to the cabal and paid the ultimate price.
In an article describing retired president Harry Truman’s famous Washington Post op-ed in December, 1963, blasting the CIA, the author talks about the enmity between JFK and the CIA.
After JFK thwarted the Bay of Pigs invasion in Cuba,
https://consortiumnews.com/2013/12/22/trumans-true-warning-on-the-cia/
Every president after JFK is painfully aware that even presidents cross the cabal at their own risk.
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@nomad
“When bad bombs happen to white people…”
LMAO!!! You are as sharp as a hundred dollar razor tonight!
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@michaeljonbarker
“The U.S. Government cuts a deal with him to not release the emails and Assange gets his freedom back.”
Would you trust the US government to keep its word in such a deal if you were Assange?
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Nomad @ This so-called historical accomplishment hasn’t done a damn thing but made things worse. Preempting any genuine black presidency. Because this one was a fraud created and implemented by the CIA. Fooeyon that historical accomplishment horse pucky.
Linda says,
Nomad says “fooey on that”…. that’s actually cute and funny 🙂
but unfortunately, despite your denials… Obama becoming President is a historical accomplishment… because of history, his election speaks for itself.
true… you are exactly where the white Establishment wants black people in America to be … divided and conquered.
Black Republicans and Libertarians are being played and used to cause dissension, disguised as “free thinking” non-monolithic, enlightened individuals
while the white leaders of America continue to find ways to erode the civil rights and freedoms that your ancestors fought for.
you’re correct in saying Obama was a set up — the white Establishment allowed black America to have it and you should have enjoyed it while it lasted.
I bet you and I won’t ever see another black or half-black man become President of the USA in our life times.
You now have to go back to choosing between which white person to elect for President. If that person doesn’t work out, you get to choose between a wider selection of white people to be your leader…
and the one thing all these white candidates will have in common, is that they will continue to place the needs of white people over black Americans, no matter how many black churches they visit.
The white establishment will eventually support these white Presidents and they will find a way to get over their differences in order to work together.
Whereas for me and others who come from majority black/brown countries, we get to choose between black/brown candidates, people who not only look like us, but they understand our struggles without having to take a diversity class.
They won’t be perfect leaders, and if we don’t like them, we get to choose between another set of black and brown people who will always make black people’s interests part of their platform.
unlike you, as a black American – you do not have that luxury or choice – you had a one time deal with Obama
now it’s back to reality
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@ nomad
No. Can you give some examples?
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“I appeal to everyone else reading this to comb through my comment above and back me up!”
No way. Regardless your intentions, Fan… has a valid point. You’ve posted countless times on this blog and the one in which you’re finally referencing black people has racist imagery.
@anglesanddimensions
“The drone bombing will continue, the wars will happen … ”
You would’ve expected Hillary’s shill Lester Holt to ask Hillary to explain her disastrous track record and ask what other countries she plans on invading.
The whole discussion about war was to question Trump about saying “Yeah, I guess so”. No questions about why Clinton advocated and voted for the Iraq war, or her involvement in fueling the wars in Syria and the Yemen. Nothing on her lies about and mess she made in Libya.
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abagond
“@ nomad
“And have you seen the faked rally videos? “
No. Can you give some examples?”
Sure.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/09/3-2-minute-videos-hillary-clinton-915-greensboro-nc-speech-without-present-every-cell-phone-recording-disappears-talking-prepared.html
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thanks Abagond
Resw,
I responded to your last comment you made to me… Abagond finally posted it.
I see you are still trying to blame Hillary and Lester for your boy Trump looking stupid at the debate…I can only admire the loyalty
Your boy Donald also thought it was also a good idea for the USA to invade Iraq and Libya, sooo… (goose, gander, gander, goose)
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In last week’s debate, Donald Trump was certainly on the defensive end protecting his fragile ego. Hillary Clinton knew early in the debate that she could play checkers instead of chess with Trump. After the debate, Trump was Hillary’s Chump. LOL!!!
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“How should we handle Assange, Hillary?” “Can’t we just drone him?” The casualness with which she suggests this
Makes you wonder if she hasn’t said something similar about other thorns in her side.
(https://youtu.be/xb_N02-vh8M)
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Lord of Mirkwood
@nomad
“Regardless your intentions…”
??? I don’t get it.
“Great. Is this a McCarthyist witch hunt? ”
nope. but Clinton’s Russia baiting is.
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@Linda
“I see you are still trying to blame Hillary and Lester for your boy Trump looking stupid at the debate”
Of course that never happened. I only called out Lester’s evident bias, which journalists should not have. Not only was his questioning biased, as I already explained, he also interrupted Trump several times more than Hillary. Not just because of time expiration, but because Lester didn’t like the answers he got.
You’re defending him because he’s Jamaican. That’s superficial. I’m calling out his biased ACTIONS.
“If you are OK with turning a blind eye to Donald’s racist acts”
No, I’m allowed to talk about Hillary’s misdeeds. Since the mass media doesn’t, someone has to.
“Your boy Donald also thought it was also a good idea for the USA to invade Iraq and Libya”
False equivalency. Hillary was a staunch advocate leading up to both. Hillary actually was the architect of the plan to invade Libya. Apples and oranges.
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— NOT JUST HAITI
The Corrupt Clinton Foundation You’ve Never Heard Of
“Three months after leaving the White House in 2001, former President Bill Clinton arrived in India to cheering throngs to help those who had just lost a million homes in the aftermath of a massive earthquake that killed 20,000 and injured 166,000. In classic Clinton style, he solemnly promised that his new nonprofit — called the American India Foundation (AIF) — would rebuild 100 villages. Rajat Gupta, his millionaire co-chairman, pledged $1 billion for the victims. It never happened. Years later, AIF’s annual reports were reviewed by the Daily Caller News Foundation and show only seven villages were partially rebuilt by Clinton’s group, and a mere $2.7 million of $53 million raised over a decade went to the earthquake victims.”
http://www.blacklistednews.com/The_Corrupt_Clinton_Foundation_You%E2%80%99ve_Never_Heard_Of/54451/0/38/38/Y/M.html
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Resw @ You’re defending him because he’s Jamaican. That’s superficial. I’m calling out his biased ACTIONS.
Linda says,
No, I mention Lester was Jamaican because he is and I wanted to give a shout out to that fact
you claiming Lester was being biased, is just your opinion, which you are certainly allowed to voice but it doesn’t mean what you’re saying is a Fact
I watched that debate as well, and dam sure didn’t see what you saw
to me, Lester let your boy run his mouth too much, Donald over-talked Everybody and he couldn’t defend himself coherently. Donald had and missed many opportunities to say something profound.
so whose opinion is right, mine or yours? (I choose mine for $100, Alex)
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Resw @ No, I’m allowed to talk about Hillary’s misdeeds. Since the mass media doesn’t, someone has to.
Linda says,
the mass media has talked about Hillary and her supposed misdeeds for about 1 year now, ad nauseum…
no one left on planet Earth has missed all of the news outlets talking about Hillary: e-mails, Benghazi, and what ever other talking point Republicans want to throw out – the media has cooked all that on both sides
the fact that you are refusing to discuss Donald’s illegal Actions and unethical misdeeds, is what makes it seem like you are Okay and just fine with whatever he does…
as he said himself, he could kill someone and his supporters would be fine with it and you are proving his words to be true.
Resw @ False equivalency. Hillary was a staunch advocate leading up to both. Hillary actually was the architect of the plan to invade Libya.
That’s not True, Resw….
Hillary and the Congress were LIED to by the Bush administration about Iraq and she supported her President /Republican administration based on the information that was given by them
please don’t throw in “false information” just because you dislike Hillary
and the Door swings both ways, if you can live with Donald being an unethical businessman, then I can live with the fact that the Obama administration helped France and Britain to invade Libya – Hillary did not plan it
Libyan invasion was French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Britain Prime Mister David Cameron’s baby– it was their war. Obama got invited to that party
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2060412,00.html
please don’t distort historical events just because you want to defend Trump…he’s not worthy
the Libyan people seemed pleased – they wanted freedom from Gaddafi and they got it.
unlike those Contractors that got stiffed by Donald Trump – they’re still waiting on their money. Donald got his goods and services, and those contractors got court bills from the lawsuits they had to file against him
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This ‘debate’ about the relative ‘merits’ of Clinton or Trump is pathetic since both sides are reduced to lying shamelessly for their guy or gal. Trump is a sleazy New York sewer rat and Clinton an international poverty pimp and warmonger. Linda and resw are only reenacting an old scenario that was common during slavery, when slaves would argue and fight over the merits of their owners.
“the Libyan people seemed pleased – they wanted freedom from Gaddafi and they got it. ” Surely not the black Libyans who were scapegoated as rapists, Linda, in your zeal to praise Clinton you “forgot” about them. How about your “fellow Jamaicans” kicked out of the USA for petty crimes thanks to the Clintons? https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/07/libya-ethnic-cleansing/. resw, your championing Trump is just as absurd. You “forgot” Trump’s decades long racist record which included taking out ads to create an atmosphere that would result in the conviction of the Central Park Five for a crime they didn’t commit. http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/donald-trump-and-the-central-park-five. Shame on you both.
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what, you feeling left out GroJo
you coming in here with your half truths so you can play referee … trying to jump into the party…. you know you have an open door invitation at all times 🙂
but don’t come at me with your BS either…this discussion is not about “black Libyans”…because that’s a different discussion all together
bring it back up when we get to the discussion about “racism in North Africa and the Middle East” … then we can talk about black Libyans all day long.
I also addressed the deportation issues under Obama many times on this blog, over many years:
so I don’t need you trying to admonish me about sh’t… if something smells, I’m going to call it out.
Clinton is not the reason why Jamaicans/Caribbeans have been getting deported… Obama actually had to make decisions without consulting Clinton
I really don’t care about Clinton either because I have no party affiliation
I’m just sick of all these so called “enlightened” Republican black folks coming out every election season since Obama’s election.
trying to push the so called “merits” of the Republican party and putting Donald Dumb’s on a pedestal
while trashing Obama and Clinton, as if the Republicans haven’t f’cked everyone over for the last 16 years with their policies and their obstruction in Congress.
I like my money, so I want the smartest person in the candidate room, regardless if their sins, leading this train – and right now, that person is Hillary Clinton
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correction:
“I like my money, so I want the smartest person in the candidate room, regardless of their sins, leading this train – and right now, that person is Hillary Clinton”
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@Linda
“you claiming Lester was being biased, is just your opinion, which you are certainly allowed to voice but it doesn’t mean what you’re saying is a Fact”
Again, the facts are that he asked less Hillary-specific questions and he interrupted her far less. That is how I came to the conclusion he’s biased. Based on the maths, not because he’s Jamaican or any other superficial or emotional reason.
“the fact that you are refusing to discuss Donald’s illegal Actions and unethical misdeeds”
I’m free to discuss what I want, not what you want me to discuss. I choose to talk about Hillary’s misdeeds because they directly affected the lives of millions and millions of black/brown people, not Trump’s.
“That’s not True, Resw….Hillary and the Congress were LIED to by the Bush administration about Iraq”
Sorry, but that does not invalidate or change the FACT that she advocated for the war in Iraq.
“Libyan invasion was French President Nicolas Sarkozy and Britain Prime Mister David Cameron’s baby– it was their war.”
I don’t know where you got that idea. Ibrahim Dabbashi asked the UN to impose a no-fly zone in Februrary 2011, after which France asked the EU for sanctions against Gaddaffi. Britain didn’t become involved until much later
The US State Dept meanwhile was admittedly, and I quote, “overseeing the transfer of weapons and supplies to the rebels” in Benghazi including “a seemingly endless supply of AK47 assault rifles and ammunition”. And who was head of the State Dept. at that time? Your boo Hillary. And this was in VIOLATION of the UN arms ban to Libya. And to whom did these weapons eventually go? Terrorists.
In March 2011, Hillary, NOT Sarkozy, was the one who rallied Persian Gulf leaders to commit warplanes, Russian diplomats to not veto the UN action she spearheaded. And the military action taken in March 2011 was a NATO action, not a unilateral effort by France, despite the fact Sarkozy wanted to strike and that his planes struck first. And when Burlusconi got pissed off at France, who calmed him down? Your boo Hillary, the architect of the Libya mess.
@gro jo
“…and resw are only reenacting an old scenario that was common during slavery, when slaves would argue and fight over the merits of their owners.”
I know you’ve missed me and need a dose of attention, but sorry, I’ve never fought over the merits of either candidate in the debate. Try again.
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@Linda
OMG. I always took that statement as Trump hyperbole, but when it comes to at least resw and nomad he is right! If he did kill someone on Fifth Avenue, they would both be like, “But Hillary has killed more people!”
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Linda said,
“so I want the smartest person in the candidate room, regardless if their sins, leading this train – and right now, that person is Hillary Clinton.”
Smart doesn’t necessarily translate to wise decisions. Both Stien or Johnson would make better presidents then either Trump or Hillary.
Johnson on foreign policy this morning: What there not to like ?
http://www.msnbc.com/andrea-mitchell-reports/watch/gary-johnson-on-2016-syria-and-gaffes-778878531589
I get that neither he nor Stien have a chance at winning but in a democracy they both should be in the debates so that the statis quo would have to defend their actions. I believe that the two party system we have today can’t effectively offer representation for all Americans. Coalitions are built but promises are never followed through on when it comes to Blacks, Hispanics ect.
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“resw and nomad would both be like, “Hillary has killed more people!””
Now see there? That’s the sleight of hand that equates being anti-Hillary with being pro-Trump. I have never said one word in praise of Trump. I merely said he was a lesser evil. I’m not pro-Trump. I do think he’s less likely to start WW3. So I guess that could count as a kind of praise. Faint, faint praise.
And of course war crimes and domestic crimes are apples and oranges. It’s a whole ‘nother thing, war crimes. It involves governments and armies. It causes the deaths and suffering of many many people. Into the millions. It’s not just Hillary I am against. It is the rein of terror started by Bush and enthusiastically embraced by Obama, and now Clinton. Not gon’ go for it. Ferk the empire.
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@ resw
Has Hillary done more absolute harm than Trump? Yes. But you keep leaving out the fact that she has also had more power to do harm. It is a misleading comparison.
Does Hillary have worse judgement than Trump? No. The stuff he denounces now – the Iraq War, Libya, pulling out of Iraq too fast – was stuff he supported BEFORE it proved to be a mistake. You are letting him play Monday morning quarterback.
Trump comes out better in your comparisons not because he is better, but because of the fallacies you have built those comparisons on.
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@ resw
Trump interrupted way more than either Holt or Clinton. You keep leaving that out.
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@ resw
In the US, Fox News covers her misdeeds tirelessly. There have been several Congressional hearings. She does not have high unfavourability ratings for nothing.
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michaeljonbarker@
Smart doesn’t necessarily translate to wise decisions. Both Stien or Johnson would make better presidents then either Trump or Hillary.
Linda says
I agree but unfortunately Trump and Clinton is all that there is.. thanks to the party voters…
I had wanted Bernie to win for the Democrats, because I liked him but it was clear, the Democratic establishment was pulling for Clinton
ie Johnson….after listening to him a few times…I don’t know if I would put him in the “smart” category… (just my opinion)
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I think Hillary and Stien are smarter then Johnson and Trump. Trump gets by with surrounding himself with people who are “really smart”. Johnson has good instinct that makes up for his type of smart. Entrapenuers have good instincts which is part of being successful. Johnson’s instinct in the political sphere is to be a skeptic and climbing Everest (that has a 50% success rate) shows her has unusual mental strength that overcomes stress.
Another way to look at is to ask who will attack civil liberties more ? That answer to that question is Trump. Trump says he doesn’t think the U.S. should act as the world’s policeman and says he was against Iraq ect. (in spite evidence to the contrary) but of all the canidates he has the least idiological grounding as his decisions are based on his ego. So you can’t trust what he says. He hasn’t come out against war but I don’t see anything that he believes in that would restrain him from pursuing war. Hillaries neo liberalism is comfortable with war more so then I think Obama. In my opinion Hillaries least likely to wreck the economy where Trump is an unknown with his economic protectionism and more likely to create economic havoc.
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Resw. I don’t know where you got that idea. Ibrahim Dabbashi asked the UN to impose a no-fly zone in Februrary 2011, after which France asked the EU for sanctions against Gaddaffi. Britain didn’t become involved until much later
In March 2011, Hillary, NOT Sarkozy, was the one who rallied Persian Gulf leaders to commit warplanes, Russian diplomats to not veto the UN action she spearheaded. And the military action taken in March 2011 was a NATO action, not a unilateral effort by France, despite the fact Sarkozy wanted to strike and that his planes struck first. And when Burlusconi got pissed off at France, who calmed him down? Your boo Hillary, the architect of the Libya mess.
Linda says,
So on one hand ,you say the Invasion of Libya was started by the UN imposing a no-fly zone, so Britain and France didn’t start it
but then, you turn around and call Hillary the architect of “Libya Mess” —
even though the US didn’t get involved until after France and Britain
Resw.. you can’t have it both ways…
I have much respect for you and your comments but on this subject.. you are dead wrong
I did not support the invasion of Libya because neither the USA or Europe had any business being there
but if you really want to push this “it’s Hillary’s faults narrative” – you got to start showing some sources.
Because I got my ideas about Libya from the same newspapers you read and the same media outlets that you listened to.
and according to those sources, there were a whole bunch of players in that mess and Hillary was just one of many but she did not start it
Maybe it was to save time and space, but you left out A LOT of pertinent information in your rush to make a point.
so, I used the same source you perused to fill in the blanks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya
Chronology
21 February 2011: Libyan deputy Permanent Representative to the UN Ibrahim Dabbashi called “on the UN to impose a no-fly zone on all Tripoli to cut off all supplies of arms and mercenaries to the regime.”[39]
23 February 2011: French President Nicolas Sarkozy pushed for the European Union (EU) to pass sanctions against Gaddafi (freezing Gaddafi family funds abroad) and demand he stop attacks against civilians.
25 February 2011: Sarkozy said Gaddafi “must go.”[54]
26 February 2011: United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 was passed unanimously, referring the Libyan government to the International Criminal Court for gross human rights violations. It imposed an arms embargo on the country and a travel ban and assets freeze on the family of Muammar Al-Qadhafi and certain Government officials.[55]
28 February 2011: British Prime Minister David Cameron proposed the idea of a no-fly zone to prevent Gaddafi from “airlifting mercenaries” and “using his military aeroplanes and armoured helicopters against civilians.”[44]
Well, so far in February 2011 – it seems like Sarkozy and Cameron go the ball rolling
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Resw, I got a comment to you in moderation… but I got to go
I got a Hurricane I have to prepare for.
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Here’s March 2011
1 March 2011: The US Senate unanimously passed non-binding Senate resolution S.RES.85 urging the United Nations Security Council to impose a Libyan no-fly zone and encouraging Gaddafi to step down. The US had naval forces positioned off the coast of Libya, as well as forces already in the region, including the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise.[56]
2 March 2011: The Governor General of Canada-in-Council authorised, on the advice of Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper, the deployment of the Royal Canadian Navy frigate HMCS Charlottetown to the Mediterranean, off the coast of Libya.[57] Canadian National Defence Minister Peter MacKay stated that “[w]e are there for all inevitabilities. And NATO is looking at this as well … This is taken as a precautionary and staged measure.”[56]
7 March 2011: US Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder announced that NATO decided to step up surveillance missions of E-3 AWACS aircraft to twenty-four hours a day. On the same day, it was reported that an anonymous UN diplomat confirmed to Agence France Presse that France and Britain were drawing up a resolution on the no-fly zone that would be considered by the UN Security Council during the same week.[43] The Gulf Cooperation Council also on that day called upon the UN Security Council to “take all necessary measures to protect civilians, including enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya.”
9 March 2011: The head of the Libyan National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, “pleaded for the international community to move quickly to impose a no-fly zone over Libya, declaring that any delay would result in more casualties.”[40] Three days later, he stated that if pro-Gaddafi forces reached Benghazi, then they would kill “half a million” people. He stated, “If there is no no-fly zone imposed on Gaddafi’s regime, and his ships are not checked, we will have a catastrophe in Libya.”[41]
10 March 2011: France recognized the Libyan NTC as the legitimate government of Libya soon after Sarkozy met with them in Paris. This meeting was arranged by Bernard-Henri Lévy.[58]
11 March 2011: Cameron joined forces with Sarkozy after Sarkozy demanded immediate action from international community for a no-fly zone against air attacks by Gaddafi.[59]
12 March 2011: The Arab League “called on the United Nations Security Council to impose a no-fly zone over Libya in a bid to protect civilians from air attack.”[48][49][50][60] The Arab League’s request was announced by Omani Foreign Minister Yusuf bin Alawi bin Abdullah, who stated that all member states present at the meeting agreed with the proposal.[48] On 12 March, thousands of Libyan women marched in the streets of the rebel-held town of Benghazi, calling for the imposition of a no-fly zone over Libya.[42]
14 March 2011: In Paris at the Élysée Palace, before the summit with the G8 Minister for Foreign Affairs, Sarkozy, who is also the president of the G8, along with French Foreign Minister Alain Juppé met with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and pressed her to push for intervention in Libya.[61]
15 March 2011: A resolution for a no-fly zone was proposed by Nawaf Salam, Lebanon’s Ambassador to the UN. The resolution was immediately backed by France and the United Kingdom.[62]
17 March 2011: The UN Security Council, acting under the authority of Chapter VII of the UN Charter, approved a no-fly zone by a vote of ten in favour, zero against, and five abstentions, via United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. The five abstentions were: Brazil, Russia, India, China, and Germany.[51][52][53][63][64] Less than twenty-four hours later, Libya announced that it would halt all military operations in response to the UN Security Council resolution.[65][66]
18 March 2011: The Libyan foreign minister, Moussa Koussa, said that he had declared a ceasefire, attributing the UN resolution.[67] However, artillery shelling on Misrata and Ajdabiya continued, and government soldiers continued approaching Benghazi.[19][68] Government troops and tanks entered the city on 19 March.[69] Artillery and mortars were also fired into the city.[70] US President Barack Obama held a meeting with eighteen senior lawmakers at the White House on the afternoon of 18 March[71]
19 March 2011: French[72] forces began the military intervention in Libya, later joined by coalition forces with strikes against armoured units south of Benghazi and attacks on Libyan air-defence systems, as UN Security Council Resolution 1973 called for using “all necessary means” to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas from attack, imposed a no-fly zone, and called for an immediate and with-standing cease-fire, while also strengthening travel bans on members of the regime, arms embargoes, and asset freezes.[18]
21 March 2011: Obama sent a letter to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate.[73]
24 March 2011: In telephone negotiations, French foreign minister Alain Juppé agreed to let NATO take over all military operations on 29 March at the latest, allowing Turkey to veto strikes on Gaddafi ground forces from that point forward.[74] Later reports stated that NATO would take over enforcement of the no-fly zone and the arms embargo, but discussions were still under way about whether NATO would take over the protection of civilians mission. Turkey reportedly wanted the power to veto airstrikes, while France wanted to prevent Turkey from having such a veto.[75][76]
25 March 2011: NATO Allied Joint Force Command in Naples took command of the no-fly zone over Libya and combined it with the ongoing arms embargo operation under the name Operation Unified Protector.[77]
28 March 2011: Obama addressed the American people on Libya.
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*he has
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Seriously, Stop Bullying People Who Won’t Vote for Hillary
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/seriously_stop_bullying_people_who_wont_vote_for_hillary_20161004
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Actually here. And its got some stingers, resw. Does Hillary have worse judgement than Trump? It’s a pretty low bar, so I’m going to say, based on her performance as Senator and Sec of State, I’m going to say probably. Whatever difference there is is marginal at any rate.
“4. #MuslimLivesMatter. More than a million people died in Iraq. She voted for that. So she isn’t, as the current Clinton campaign meme goes, merely a “flawed” candidate. Voting for the violent deaths of over a million people, and the maiming of God knows how many more — when there was no reason whatsoever to think Iraq had WMDs — is not an “oops, my bad” screw-up. Those were real people, real human beings, and they’re dead because of her. You don’t get to soak your hands in that much blood and just walk away, much less into the White House.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/10/04/7-reasons-i-wont-vote-for-hillary-clinton/
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“but don’t come at me with your BS either…this discussion is not about “black Libyans”…because that’s a different discussion all together”
Nonsense, your partisanship has blinded you to the crimes of your heroine. The black Libyans are germane because they were used as justification to invade by Hillary and Susan Rice. .They were the viagra fueled African mercenary rapists of western and Arab propaganda. You are free to your opinions but not to your facts. http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/08/31/the-top-ten-myths-in-the-war-against-libya/‘ The only difference between your heroine and Trump is that she has a hell of a lot more blood on her hand. In your opinion, it’s a good thing! “I also like that she is tough and I’m glad she has the rumors about having body counts behind her…that might keep her enemies in check…” Rumors you say? no facts, as far as Libya and Syria are concrened. I can’t wait for Tony Soprano to run for President, he would be your ideal candidate. I find it strange how all the anti-racist talk by you and Abagond gets put away to back H. Clinton. Are you guys saying it’s alright to be racist outside the USA but not within its borders?
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concrened should be concerned
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@Linda
“So on one hand ,you say the Invasion of Libya was started by the UN imposing a no-fly zone, so Britain and France didn’t start it”
No, I was giving a timeline of events. I didn’t say that was the cause.
“but if you really want to push this “it’s Hillary’s faults narrative” – you got to start showing some sources.”
I believe I referenced as my source her State Department, which “admittedly” approved illegal arms sales to Benghazi rebels. You may look this up yourself, but it is on record:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/20/hillary-clinton-state-department-approved-us-weapo/
And I called Hillary the architect because she was the one, not Sarkozy, who, as I already stated, “rallied Persian Gulf leaders to commit warplanes, Russian diplomats to not veto the UN action she spearheaded” and reassured Berlusconi. Sarkozy was A leader and strong advocate, but not the architect, not the strategist–that was Hillary.
See also the article APTLY entitled “HILLARY’s War” not Sarkozy’s War:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/hillarys-war-how-conviction-replaced-skepticism-in-libya-intervention/2011/10/28/gIQAhGS7WM_story.html
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@abagond
“Yes. But you keep leaving out the fact that she has also had more power to do harm.”
And you keep leaving out the fact that Hillary had more power to do good, and what good has she done? 7 years in the Senate, please name some legislation she introduced to correct all her “mistakes”. I’ll wait.
“Does Hillary have worse judgement than Trump? No.”
Your opinion.
“The stuff he denounces now – the Iraq War, Libya, pulling out of Iraq too fast – was stuff he supported BEFORE it proved to be a mistake.”
Same can be said about Hillary. Add to that a host of other things she supported or was against but flip flopped on, like the 1994 Crime bill which she advocated for that unfairly targets blacks.
“Trump interrupted way more than either Holt or Clinton. You keep leaving that out.”
LOL. As I stated before, I expect a JOURNALIST and MODERATOR to be unbiased.
“In the US, Fox News covers her misdeeds tirelessly.”
So you’re conflating the “mass media” with “Fox News”? Got it.
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@nomad
“That’s the sleight of hand that equates being anti-Hillary with being pro-Trump. I have never said one word in praise of Trump. ”
It goes to show just how whipped the Clintons have most black voters. And for what? Absolutely nothing. The Clintons haven’t done a damned thing for blacks except make their lives worse.
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“I also addressed the deportation issues under Obama many times on this blog, over many years:
“Linda says:
under Obama, deportation of illegal immigrants and legal immigrants with so called “criminal backgrounds” have Increased/Doubled beyond what the Bush administration has EVER done”
so I don’t need you trying to admonish me about sh’t… if something smells, I’m going to call it out. ”
My dear Linda, you left out a mere detail. Bill Clinton was the one who signed the bill that made this practice the law of the land. Expect equally ‘smart’ legislation from the Mrs.
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@ resw
1. Fox News has this fantasy that it is not somehow part of the media. It is. Last I looked it had a bigger audience than CNN and MSNBC put together. So, yeah, Hillary’s misdeeds are getting out there even if CNN and MSNBC are playing footsies with her.
2. I never said Hillary Clinton was a net good for the nation. Clinton v Trump is not good v evil. It is lesser evil v greater evil. Unfortunately.
3. I take back what I said about Holt. He is the moderator, so he does not “interrupt” but moderates. The times I can remember him “interrupting” the Great Leader was when he was going over time, not answering the question or saying something that was flatly not true.
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Gro Jo,
I think you are missing my point, so let me make it clear:
not interested in discussing black Libyans and I don’t need you telling me sh’t about US immigration policy because you aren’t telling me anything that I don’t know.
Your a fly in the ointment right now and your goal post shifting is not appreciated.. so go kick rocks and let me get back to Resw and our discussion (and I mean this in the nicest way)
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@abagond
“Fox News has this fantasy that it is not somehow part of the media. It is.”
All I said was the “mass media doesn’t” talk about Hillary’s misdeeds, NOT all news outlets avoid talking about Hillary’s misdeeds.
It’s like the argument you use when people question you for saying “white people…” when you do not mean every single white person.
“So, yeah, Hillary’s misdeeds are getting out there even if CNN and MSNBC are playing footsies with her.”
And we also have alternative media and Youtube to accomplish that goal. But CNN and MSNBC are but a small part of the “mass media”. There’s CNBC, NBC, ABC, CBS, Bloomberg, the New York Times, Washington Post, etc. the list is long, and they’re mostly shills for Clinton.
“I never said Hillary Clinton was a net good for the nation.”
Who said you did? I simply don’t follow your logic that she’s somehow the lesser of two evils because she “had more power to do harm” and did harm. That doesn’t come close to explaining WHY she’s the lesser of two evils.
“I take back what I said about Holt. He is the moderator, so he does not “interrupt” but moderates”
Great. It’s only reasonable.
“The times I can remember him “interrupting” the Great Leader was when he was going over time, not answering the question or saying something that was flatly not true.”
LOL @ Great Leader. Yet Holt did NOT interrupt Hillary when she lied about calling the TPP the “gold standard” or when she lied saying “When I Became Secretary Of State, Iran Was Weeks Away From Having Enough Nuclear Material To Form A Bomb.”
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@abagond
“2. I never said Hillary Clinton was a net good for the nation. Clinton v Trump is not good v evil. It is lesser evil v greater evil. Unfortunately. ”
Unfortunately you believe Hillary is the lesser evil. This election is not evil versus lesser evil. It’s evil versus evil. In fact, it’s hard to tell from this vantage point , but the lesser evil might actually be Trump. But I want quibble. Whatever the difference is, it’s marginal. This is evil versus evil.
I can’t find the quote, but some famous person said when we first began this path down the lesser evilism road, that progressively the difference between the lesser and greater evil becomes less and less until evil is all there is. My friends, we have reached that hour.
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“not interested in discussing black Libyans and I don’t need you telling me sh’t about US immigration policy because you aren’t telling me anything that I don’t know. ”
Perfectly understandable since you are shilling for Mrs. Clinton by writing things you know are lies. Funny how people on this blog can shed tears over a cop gunning down some black kid, and yet turn around and sing the praise of a woman who caused the deaths of thousands in Libya.
“Your a fly in the ointment right now and your goal post shifting is not appreciated.. so go kick rocks and let me get back to Resw and our discussion (and I mean this in the nicest way)”
characterizing this ‘debate’ as “ointment” is wild exaggeration, dung heap is more accurate. I said all I wanted to say so I’ll leave you and resw to fight over the merits of your masters.
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GroJo@ Funny how people on this blog can shed tears over a cop gunning down some black kid, and yet turn around and sing the praise of a woman who caused the deaths of thousands in Libya.
Linda says
GroJo: When did you and I talk about Libyans — black, white, or in between?
What conversation have you and I HAD, that told you how I felt about the subject.
NONE… so Shut the h’ll up and don’t put words in my mouth…or speak for me
I asked you nicely to step aside, but you always want to have the last word
Do not put words in my mouth or tell LIES on me … I have never done that sh’t to you… You’re being f’cking disrespectful at this point.
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Resw to Linda: And I called Hillary the architect because she was the one, not Sarkozy, who, as I already stated, “rallied Persian Gulf leaders to commit warplanes, Russian diplomats to not veto the UN action she spearheaded” and reassured Berlusconi. Sarkozy was A leader and strong advocate, but not the architect, not the strategist–that was Hillary.
Linda says,
Resw… that’s not someone being an architect… she is just a player in the Game
and I’ve looked at your source and looked on the internet, and I don’t see any article that states implicitly that Hillary was the mastermind or strategic leader of the Libyan war.
(I only saw conspiracy blogs say that she was, but that doesn’t make it true)
saying she was the Architect is a projection
You take away the Agency of Libyan rebels, the Arab leaders, and the European leaders by giving her all the Credit for the Libyan invasion.
it doesn’t matter what the newspaper headlines say – they could say “HIllary is a Martian”… that doesn’t make it true…even you have to agree Hillary hasn’t been to Mars. though I’m sure you wished she lived on it 🙂
The Libyan rebels already had weapons in their hands because nearly all the 1st world countries sell arms illegally, through intermediaries, to any group that is willing to buy them
because it serves these 1st world countries/government Agenda – they get to manipulate
(that’s why many 3rd world countries were screwed up for so long, just like black gangs in black neighbors– they don’t make guns and they’re getting weapons in large quantities from someone)
Hillary might have pushed for war planes to fly into Libya but Sarkozy admitted to giving the Libyans rebels weapons to get things started
if you are interested in fairness, then stop taking the Agency away from France, the former colonial ruler of Libya
whose fingers are firmly trapped in Africa
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Gro Jo,
I just want to apologize for my above comment to you…
it was harsh because you p’sd me off … but I re-read it and realized it was unnecessary to say all of that
I have love for you most times, GroJo, but this trip, I reallly needed you to stay in your lane.
I didn’t want you, to further move the goal post any further to the left field, than it already was
The conversation started with Resw trying to blame Lester Holt for Donald Trumps failure in the debate
We’re talking about Clinton because Resw stated, he chooses to only discuss Hillary Clinton and refuses to focus on Donald Trump
so, here we are, continuously talking about Hillary Clinton
I have no political party affiliation and I already stated that I don’t really care about the Clinton’s because I believe they have done dirty deeds.
I clearly stated that I don’t like how Resw and other black Republicans are willing to push Republican narrative and talking points about Obama or the Democrats
while overlooking the dirty deeds of the Republican party or Donald Trump
That is what my disagreement with Resw is all about.
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correction:
“I already stated that I don’t really care about the Clinton’s because I believe they have done dirty deeds, but when it comes down to choosing between Clinton or Trump, I choose Hillary.”
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@Linda
“and I’ve looked at your source and looked on the internet, and I don’t see any article that states implicitly that Hillary was the mastermind or strategic leader of the Libyan war.”
Well I won’t debate semantics. I mean the Washington Post article is entitled “HILLARY’s War”, no one else’s war. Even DEMOCRAT Tulsi Gabbard called her the “architect”. You can also see her State Dept. emails that make a point to frame her as the leader of it: https://foia.state.gov/searchapp/DOCUMENTS/HRC_Email_1_296/HRCH1/DOC_0C05739755/C05739755.pdf
“HRC has been a critical voice on Libya in administration deliberations, at NATO, and in contact group meetings — as well as the public face of the U.S. effort in Libya. She was instrumental in securing the authorization, building the coalition, and tightening the noose around Qadhafi and his regime. ”
So I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
“if you are interested in fairness, then stop taking the Agency away from France, the former colonial ruler of Libya”
With the exception of a few tiny portions in the Sahara that France ceded, that’d be Italy that was the “colonial ruler of Libya”.
And I believe I already explained how France/Sarkozy was involved and called him “A leader”. But sorry, that still doesn’t diminish Hillary’s central role in making all of it happen.
“I clearly stated that I don’t like how Resw and other black Republicans are willing to push Republican narrative and talking points about Obama or the Democrats”
I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The only things I said about Obama on this page were in reference to (1) Hillary’s (a DEMOCRAT) phony claim of his “lack of American roots” and (2) the lack of advocacy Michelle Obama (a DEMOCRAT) did to “Obama’s draconian National Defense Authorization Act, ” which by the way had higher rate of Republican support than Democrats.
So I don’t know what Republican talking points about Obama and the Democrats you’re talking about.
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Resw @ I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The only things I said about Obama on this page were in reference to (1) Hillary’s (a DEMOCRAT) phony claim of his “lack of American roots” and (2) the lack of advocacy Michelle Obama (a DEMOCRAT) did to “Obama’s draconian National Defense Authorization Act, ” which by the way had higher rate of Republican support than Democrats.
So I don’t know what Republican talking points about Obama and the Democrats you’re talking about.
Linda says
Resw… I was speaking about you, Nomad, and others… not just you
you all sound like you have Breitbarts articles memorized and on speed dial.
I obviously don’t have time to get into it point by point because I got a Hurricane just miles away… so next time
If you are in the cone, stay safe and take care of you and yours.
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I can only speak for myself. I don’t do Reps talking points. You have thoroughly misread me. But that’s understandable. In yours and Abagond’s view if you’re not for Hillary, you’re for Trump. No matter how you explain it somehow you guys just don’t get it. I point you again to Ted Ralls article. Though I don’t expect it will do much good. Lucky for me I don’t have to abide by yalls opinion.
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What article you say.
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/seriously_stop_bullying_people_who_
Because he lays out the case point by point.
Seriously, Stop Bullying People Who Won’t Vote for Hillary
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“Gro Jo,
I just want to apologize for my above comment to you…
it was harsh because you p’sd me off … but I re-read it and realized it was unnecessary to say all of that
I have love for you most times, GroJo, but this trip, I reallly needed you to stay in your lane.”
My dear Linda, no need to apologize. I don’t take offense at what people write. I said what I had to say, that’s the end of it.
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@Linda: Stay safe.🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
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@Linda
“you all sound like you have Breitbarts articles memorized and on speed dial”
I guess I could say you sound like CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC articles, faux journalists, etc.
And I don’t need to read “Breitbarts articles” to know about Hillary’s disastrous record. It’s public knowledge.
“If you are in the cone, stay safe and take care of you and yours.”
Since you are, stay safe and take care. I’m glad you mostly stuck to the issues and didn’t do what so many others like Afrofem and villagewriter do when they don’t like the facts and derail by lobbing personal attacks. You’re a class act in my book.
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@Linda
Be careful, be safe.
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@resw
“Gales of Laughter!!!!!!!!!!”
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@nomad
“In yours and Abagond’s view if you’re not for Hillary, you’re for Trump. No matter how you explain it somehow you guys just don’t get it.”
LOL. IMO abagond gets it. I guess there’s no other way to convince anyone to support a candidate he admittedly hates, can’t name anything good they’ve done, and has “done more absolute harm” than the other candidate.
I think Linda is just too loyal a Democrat and actually admires Hillary a little.
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Hmmm….
You think Abagond gets it? Interesting. I don’t think he does. Clinton=lesser evil? I don’t think he does.
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@nomad
I take abagond at his word that he thinks even though Hillary has done more harm, if given power, Trump would do more harm than Hillary. That’s abagond’s belief even though it is utterly baseless.
That’s why abagond is playing this game that anything bad about Hillary is automatic support for Trump. That’s his one and only defence for Hillary.
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@ Linda
I wish that you your loved ones stay safe.
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https://www.pearltrees.com/herneith
Ditto!
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@Linda
Please be safe. I’m not near the coast, but many have come in to our area to avoid the storm, so I pray you have found a way to avoid it as well.
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@Linda
Wishing you safe shelter and no post storm clean up.
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I watched as Obama handed over the recovery of Haiti from the 2010 earthquake to Clinton and Bush. I was skeptical. Don’t you think that in 6 years and untold millions of dollars they could have rebuilt Haiti by now, at least to the extent that the inevitable hurricane, that Matthew is, would not have killed so many? Isn’t this neglect a kind of genocide? Reminds me of the Katrina neglect. And considering the existence of weather weapons, is it even more egregious than it seems on the surface?
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Is Hillary racist? From her WikiLeaked e-mails.
“The main reason behind successful immigration should be painfully obvious to even the most dimwitted of observers: Some groups of people are almost always highly successful given only half a chance (Jews*, Hindus/Sikhs and Chinese people, for example), while others (Muslims, blacks** and Roma***, for instance) fare badly almost irrespective of circumstances.”
Get that? According to Hillary we are innately inferior. Sounds like racism to me.
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forgot link
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/wikileaks-bombshell-racist-hillary-trashes-african-americans-calls-losers/#disqus_thread
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“Get that? According to Hillary we are innately inferior. Sounds like racism to me.”
@Nomad
Rest assure (to the many fans of Hillary here) that a certain real estate mogul’s racism and refusal to rent to Blacks will TRUMP the discrimination you speak of.
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@ nomad
I just came from the wikileaks page. Is orca100 (the sender of the e-mail) Hillary? Their ISP is in the Netherlands going by the full e-mail address.
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Forgot the link:
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/1637
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I think those emails are from Podesto.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
I think this particular e-mail was sent to Podesta. He’s in the list of recipients.
But yes, this one appears to be from the Podesta batch.
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@ nomad
How is that an email or quote from Hillary Clinton?
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@ abagond
link given. credible? not the credible? they did link to the entire e-mail which I assume contains the highlighted passage.
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@nomad
That link goes to WikiLeaks, but the email is from someone with a Dutch email address who talks like an Islamophobe who lives in or near Germany. In US terms, more Breitbart than White Liberal Democrat.
The article you linked to is by Jim Hoft, who does write for Breitbart and who cannot tell the difference between an NBC championship victory parade and the line for a Trump rally:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2016/08/04/jim-hoft-also-uses-picture-clevelands-nba-title-parade-brag-about-size-trump-rally/212188
More on Hoft:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2010/09/21/jim-hoft-dumbest-man-on-the-internet/170927
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“The email is from someone with a Dutch email address who talks like an Islamophobe who lives in or near Germany.”
The reference to the Roma in the quote is what made me go look at wikileaks. Roma immigration to the USA is generally not a talking point regardless of which side of the fence a US politician is on. Much bigger deal in Europe, though.
Also note the lack of any references to Hispanic immigrants (Mexican or otherwise).
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@Afrofem
Right! And she talks about Muslims not in terms of terrorism but assimilation, a distinctly European concern.
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Nomad,
Please provide more information because the article you provided seems to be printing false information.
are you trying to say that this is an actual statement that Hillary Clinton made to Podesta?
because based on the actual e-mail, it looks like someone with English as a second language wrote it
The e-mail is from orca100@upcmail.nl ( Netherlands) to
podesta@law.georgetown.edu
discussing multiculturalism in Germany / Europe
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/295
what does England’s “Muslims, blacks, and Roma (ie Gypsies)”
have to do with Hillary Clinton and the United States of America??
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Thanks for all the well-wishes everyone.
South Florida came through unscathed… just a few down branches and power outages
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@Linda
Glad you and Jamaica made it through the hurricane okay.
Haiti (as you probably know better than I) didn’t fare as well. 870+ fatalities.
Perhaps if the Clinton foundation had done better by the people of Haiti, after the earthquake there, fewer lives might have been lost.
Anywho:
Glad you’re still here with us!
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Resw @ I think Linda is just too loyal a Democrat and actually admires Hillary a little.
Linda says,
Resw, I’m not a Democrat or a Republican — I’m Independent (and an immigrant who can do everything but vote)
I don’t support parties, I support individuals based on them meeting my minimal requirements.
I have liked and disliked various people from both parties (loved Colin Powell, Republican; disliked Al Gore, Democrat and his ugly wife Tipper)
I don’t have allegiance to any party because I understand that — Politics is a game
and plenty of times, politicians have to the toe the party line, even if that narrative goes against their personal opinions.
Look at Michael Steele (Republican)– as chairman of the RNC, he said plenty of cringe-worthy sh’t in support of the party, which I totally disagreed with but he is definitely more palatable now and I enjoy his critiques and analyse.
My supporting Hillary has nothing to do with admiration, she meets my minimal requirements: she’s smart and I trust her with money
I think she was stupid for sticking with Bill after all those affairs – she would have still done well politically without him.
At the end of the day, I can stomach Hillary more than Trump — I don’t respect him and I don’t think he could lead this country out of a paper bag
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Fan@ Perhaps if the Clinton foundation had done better by the people of Haiti, after the earthquake there, fewer lives might have been lost.
Linda says,
Thanks Fan… yes, my Haitian neighbors had calls from family in Haiti, so we heard about the devastation before they showed the pictures.
As for Clinton Foundation… I can’t roll with this Republican talking point because the Clinton’s are not the world
and it was a worldwide effort that set about trying to “save” Haiti after the earthquake. Cuba and Jamaica were in Haiti, helping before the USA even got there
Haiti, as a sovereign nation, has got to be able to get it’s own sh’t together… it’s not up to America or Europe to “save” Haiti
What the USA and Europe need to do, is get the f’ck out of Haiti
After the earthquake, the majority of the aide money, went to foreign companies and foreign contractors (most of them from the USA)
because it was the foreign organizations like the Red Cross, who got to choose who they would hire for the various re-building projects.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/datablog/2014/jan/10/haiti-earthquake-us-aid-funding-data
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There are more than one story about the assistance offered to Haiti. Some say the local authority wanted to control the funds.
Can you explain what went wrong that made the Clinton and other foundations back out.
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@Linda Don’t you believe that each person has a right to choose their companion?
Or do you believe that the society has a duty to interfere in a marriage?
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I’m tired of foreigners thinking they can ride into our poor 3rd world countries
and “save us”
The Haitian government needs to demand and enforce a law that forces foreign aide organizations to hire local Haitian contractors and buy local/national goods and services, so that the Haitian economy can benefit.
This is what will help to rebuild the infrastructure of the country … money flowing through it … not back out of it to USA and Europe
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092425/Haiti-earthquake-How-donated-billions-INCREASED-poverty-corruption.html
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Allen Shaw,
of course each person has the right to choose their companions
and I have the right to say that “I think a woman who chooses to stay married to a serial cheater is stupid”
what does my opinion have to do with society’s morality?
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Nomad @ In yours and Abagond’s view if you’re not for Hillary, you’re for Trump. No matter how you explain it somehow you guys just don’t get it.
Linda says,
Nomad, I absolutely understand where you are coming from
I get that many people, like yourself, don’t trust Hillary Clinton because they see her as a failure and see Donald Trump as the lesser evil and that the current politicians are corrupt and it wouldn’t hurt to have fresh blood in the office.
I completely understand all that and I actually agree that the country needs new leader ship because the “same old, same old” is not working.
I get that to many people:
* Hillary is weak on finances because the Clinton Foundation “failed to rebuild Haiti” and the Clinton’s lost money in the failed saving and loans business
* dont’ trust Hillary’s judgement because as Secretary of State, she failed to recognize that Libya would fall apart after deposing Muammar Qaddafi, etc
* think she is evil and is capable of murder because many Clinton aides and staffers have ended up dead on their watch (like Ron Brown)
I don’t dispute any of that, her record speaks for itself… I just don’t think Donald Trump is the answer for the “new blood” that’s needed… his a’s is just as shady as she is
that’s why I said, you have to go with your conscience and vote for who meets your minimal standard
so, no… I’m not interested in bullying you into voting for Hillary
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This weekend exchange of mud between the two Presidential contenders camps reached a new absolute low. I’m disappointed really. It seems that central political, social and economic issues that should concern everybody are being replaced by peripheral and circumstantial assessments of the character of the contenders. It seems also that dispute is already over and Republicans should try seriously to replace Trump while there is time. Otherwise they will be sending the Presidency to the Democratic camp.
Mud against Hillary Clinton:
(edition.cnn.com/2016/10/07/politics/john-podesta-emails-hacked/index.html)
Mud against Donald Trump:
(edition.cnn.com/2016/10/08/politics/trump-on-howard-stern/index.html)
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@abagond
Fraudulent link? My bad. But as long as we are on the subject of Hillary’s racism…
This just a paperclip before had a chance to read the rest of comments.Will be back.
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@Linda: Hey, Lady glad to read you good to have you back with us.🤓🤗
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@Linda
“I’m tired of foreigners thinking they can ride into our poor 3rd world countries
and “save us”
The Haitian government needs to demand and enforce a law that forces foreign aide organizations to hire local Haitian contractors and buy local/national goods and services, so that the Haitian economy can benefit.
This is what will help to rebuild the infrastructure of the country … money flowing through it … not back out of it to USA and Europe”.
When anyone donates anything to anybody there is an expectation that the donator is going to control the money and the results.
Do gooder’s do not really exist in the real world except maybe individuals.
Do you reflect the views of the Haitian people when you say either let us control the money or do not give it to us?
Am I reading you correctly?
Have you studied the methods of government in Haiti to determine why Haiti does not progress like it neighbor?
What social realities exist in Haiti that are causing such continuous poverty?
Do you have any suggestions that will improve the living standards of the Haitian citizens?
Has the United Nations ever declared you nation distressed and found adequate businesses in Haiti to perform the work?
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@ Linda
I think what Nomad’s getting at is he’s going to vote for Jill Stein of the Green Party.
He’s almost talked me into it, except I live in a state that just may swing. If it looks on election day like Trump is going to be soundly defeated, I will vote for Stein.
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Solitaire
yes, I saw in a previous comment where Nomad talked about voting for Jill Stein, as a revolutionary vote…that’s why I said to him: “vote his conscience”
I haven’t really focused on the Green Party or Libertarians because neither have a shot in h’ll of winning this election, so it is more of an intellectual exercise to discuss them.
I wish they were viable options… I definitely agree with some of the talking points that the Green Party stands for… I wish they had the support and strength to be a real 3rd party challenger…this country needs new blood besides the 2 dominant political parties.
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Mary,
Thank you… great to see you as always!
I see you’ve been holding down the fort while I was gone .. you even got a little feisty in some of those posts 🙂
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@ Allen
Linda speaks to a lot of the problems going on there. Aid organizations raised money for Haiti but the actual aid was largely a sham. This story focuses on the Clinton foundation and how they used Haiti to enrich there donors.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/437883/hillarys-america-secret-history-democratic-party-dinesh-dsouza-clinton-foundation
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@michaeljonbarker The reference that you used was written by an almost, if not totally, discredited author.
Could you find some more reliable source for such as large list of wrongs by one organization.
It is most difficult to believe so many wrongs could be committed by one foundation without someone going to jail.
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@Allen Shaw
“It is most difficult to believe so many wrongs could be committed by one foundation without someone going to jail.”
Rolling On The Floor Laughing (ROTFL)!
Are you still snorting pixie dust?
Committing crimes and getting away with them is what the One Percent and their minions in the political class do——and they almost never go to jail or prison. Prison is reserved for some poor working class Black person with marijuana residue in the bottom of their book bag found during a “no knock” SWAT team raid on their home at 3am.
Allen Shaw, you are old enough to know better. You choose to dance with unicorns and float on rose colored bubbles. So very sad.
ROTFL!!!
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“It is most difficult to believe so many wrongs could be committed by one foundation without someone going to jail.”
.
Ooh! Mr Potato Bobble Head strikes again. You know, he’s really the Lone Ranger (or John Wayne ala James Baldwin) when it comes to not seeing the world for what it really is. I would have given my right arm (back in the day) to have experienced his type of dementia… uh I mean delusion.
Say hello for me to the tooth-fairy and Santa the next time they drop in on you!
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This conversation about the Clintons and Haiti is sadly amusing. Why? Because people here think that the Clintons were or could “fix” Haiti. History says otherwise.
The last time the USA was of any good to the people of Haiti was before that nation was founded. It occurred during the Quasi-War between France and the USA (1798-1800). The Adams administration negotiated with Toussaint’s emissary Joseph Bunel to keep trade going between St-Domingue and the USA in spite of the fact that, being a French territory, a state of war existed. This was done by way of the Toussaint’s Clause negotiated by squire Bunel. The US Navy helped Toussaint defeat Rigaud! Things went downward ever since beginning with Jefferson’s acquiescence with Napoleon’s attempt to re-enslave the people of St-Domingue and his embargo of Haiti.
The USA, along with other powers, was also responsible for splitting Haiti into present day Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The USA helped her self to Navassa island a Haitian territory, by gunboat diplomacy.
The coup de grâce came in 1915 when the US Marines invaded. Haiti was forced to accept US financial slavery, along with US apartheid. Haitian businesses deemed inconvenient to US interests were destroyed by taxing peasants who produced the raw material they used, ports were closed and business concentrated in Port-Au-Prince for the convenience of the occupier.
The most recent indignity was the introduction of cholera by UN occupation troops from Asia. One of the benefits of the Haitian Revolution to the Haitian people was the absence of this disease from the land!
Let’s not have anymore nonsense about Clinton or anybody else from the USA ‘saving’ Haiti or anywhere else on this globe. Such talk says that you people have drunk the Kool-Aid! My only question to you is what flavor was it?
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@ Linda
“that’s why I said to him: “vote his conscience”
Ah, I see. I didn’t catch that on the first read, sorry.
Pretty much in agreement with you on everything else you said re third parties.
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“Because people here think that the Clintons were or could “fix” Haiti. History says otherwise.”
.
The last time I checked there were TWO individuals who thought highly of the Clintons and their (charitable?) foundation. One of them eventually caught on after much strife, stress and realization and has since relocated back to his favorite thread. The other, well, insists on remaining in his reality altering bubble. He is the only “people here” you could be possibly addressing.
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Thank you Fan. I’m in awe of your mastery of stating the obvious.
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“Thank you Fan. I’m in awe of your mastery of stating the obvious.”
You’re quite welcome Comrade!
Any mastery I’ve acquired over time comes directly from His Majesty, Gro jo! It’s always been my aspiration to fill those big/long shoes of yours, if only if that was possible! 🙂
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Well I see the “Mutual Admiration Society” has responded again.
Fingers in ears and eyes closed and mouth wide open, with no thought of actually reading any factual information about anything.
The problems of Haiti go back to the leadership of Haiti and the failure of the people to establish any form of useful government. The history is full of major problems caused by weather, earthquakes and bad governments.
How can a group of individuals on one Island who are separated by a few mountains be so much different?
Selecting the United States, or the Clinton Foundation as the single problem is like blaming a quart of water for the flood. Anyone who even starts to look at the history of Haiti can see a string of leaders who have taken advantage of the people, a massive misuse of power and money by Haitian elite and a total disregard for the general population.
The French and Spanish who have been responsible for the majority of social systems seem to receive a pass, while the US Government is the “bad guy”.
Such thinking as how do you build a house for an individual who does not own the land they were living on does not come into play. It is the Clinton Foundation that did not single handily do each and every thing that was needed, no other agency was responsible. The Haitian Government was not responsible for managing the affairs of the Nation, it was the Clinton foundation alone that forced the leaders of Haiti to not use their resources to clean the streets. You need not believe that the Haitian people had any responsibility to at least clean up that trash that was in front of them. The Clinton Foundation was the sole NGO that was responsible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Haiti_earthquake
Potato Bubble head out.
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@Allen Shaw
“The problems of Haiti go back to the leadership of Haiti and the failure of the people to establish any form of useful government. The history is full of major problems caused by weather, earthquakes and bad governments.”
The problems of Haiti go far, far beyond failures of the people or their government. Much of Haiti’s agony year after year, decade after decade is due in large measure to massive interference by the US, France, Canada and the UK. The US alone has invaded and occupied Haiti several times over the past two centuries. Even now, the US is behind an occupying force of United Nations “peace keeping” troops in Haiti——-even though Haiti is not at war with anyone!
TransAfrica founder Randall Robinson, author of An Unbroken Agony: Haiti, from Revolution to the Kidnapping of a President had this to say about Haiti’s deliberate underdevelopment:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/15/bush_was_responsible_for_destroying_haitian
According to writer, Ezili Dantò, in 1915, “US marines carted out Haiti’s gold reserves and brought it to the National City Bank of New York’s vaults in Wall Street New York, never to be seen by Haitians, ever again.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/100th-anniversary-of-the-us-occupation-of-haiti-city-bank-along-with-french-and-german-bankers-destabilized-haiti/5465566
That is straight up gangsterism and it has never ended for the Haitian people. The noble people of Haiti did not fall into an abyss, they were pushed…and they have been forcibly held down for more than two centuries.
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“Fingers in ears and eyes closed and mouth wide open, with no thought of actually reading any factual information about anything.” That sounds like an apt description of you, “Potato Bubble head”. I stated a number of facts, let me number them for you.
1) The USA, along with other powers, were responsible for splitting Haiti
into present day Haiti and the Dominican Republic (DR).
2) The USA stole Navassa island, a Haitian territory, by gunboat diplomacy.
3) The US Marines invaded Haiti and forced her to accept US financial slavery.
I dare you to refute any of my claims with facts.
“How can a group of individuals on one Island who are separated by a few mountains be so much different?”
Haiti and DR are not separated by mountains. What!? the Dominicans are doing great? Why are there so many of them in the USA, Puerto Rico and other places? They are doing relatively better than Haitians, nothing more. The DR didn’t start doing better than Haiti until the USA showed up and started to rearrange the economy of the Caribbean to suit its aims. Haitians were reduced to agricultural workers for US plantations in Cuba and DR. The date of that change was 1928, 13 years after the US invasion of Haiti.
“Anyone who even starts to look at the history of Haiti can see a string of leaders who have taken advantage of the people, a massive misuse of power and money by Haitian elite and a total disregard for the general population.”
Not entirely accurate, the kingdom of Haiti under Henri Christophe did invest in general education with the help of abolitionists such as Thomas Clarkson and Prince Saunders. After 1820, the effort was abandoned by the governments that succeeded his. Despite such shortcomings, Haiti was richer than all the other territories in the Caribbean save Cuba.
“But this has marked the relationship since Toussaint Louverture and an army of ex-slaves overthrew French rule in 1804.”
Toussaint Louverture did nothing of the sort. He was forced to hand over power to Leclerc, retire to his plantation, harassed, arrested, dragged to France, and locked up in a dungeon where he was starved and frozen to death. He did create the army that would end French rule under Jean-Jacques Dessalines.
Despite Jefferson’s embargo, Haiti did trade with the USA and England. in 1811, 1.2 million pounds Sterling in trade took place between Britain and Haiti. Such substantial trade was carried on at a disadvantage for Haiti in part due to the lack of recognition of her status as an independent nation.
“…Haiti’s plight up until this point has been, in some significant way, attributable to bad and painful American, French and Western policy that some believe is caused or described, motivated by Toussaint Louverture’s victory over Napoleon. The French have never forgiven the Haitian people for this.”
This is a sympathetic but false history of Haiti. as indicated above, Louverture was murdered by Napoleon’s jailers in 1803, eight months before Haiti declared its independence on January 1, 1804. The fault for Haiti’s predicament can’t be blamed solely on foreigners. Haiti’s rulers deserve some of the blame. No foreign power prevented the successor government of the kingdom of Haiti from continuing the education reforms undertaken between 1815 to 1820. The Haitian ruling class has a predilection for all things foreign, they prefer to spend their money in places like France, England and other places instead of Haiti. The Haitian aviation pioneer Charles Terres Weymann owned a factory in England and Sylla Laraque, a Haitian tycoon, was the developer of a seaside resort in Brittany, France as well as a large landowner in Tunisia and considered the third richest man of France in 1900!
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@gro jo I guest you did not bother to read my references. So you decided to report selectively those indictments against the US. I did not read your comments because my eyes were blurred from reading about Haiti on line.
No one is denying the part that the US has played both good and bad; however other problems remain buried while people want to blame the U.S.
You probably blame the Clinton Foundation for the problems from the past centuries also.
Do you believe that the French, English, Spanish and US have not been involved other places. If you read the references you would see huge sums of money that have been given to Haiti so you need to look to other problems as well as the US.
Why is there so many problems between Dominican Republican and Haiti.
Read my references. Haiti has some internal problems that “they” need to solve.
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@Afrofem You did not read my references either or you would not have bothered to repeat the information as if I did not include it in my comments.
Is reading difficult for you? Yes I know it was a lot of info.
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“@gro jo I guest you did not bother to read my references. So you decided to report selectively those indictments against the US.”
Prove them wrong.
“If you read the references you would see huge sums of money that have been given to Haiti so you need to look to other problems as well as the US.”
Quote the passages showing the “huge sums of money given to Haiti”.
“Why is there so many problems between Dominican Republican(sic) and Haiti.”
Because Dominicans feel they are ‘superior’ to Haitians because they have a higher percentage of white ancestry than Haitians and since their economy is doing better than Haiti’s starting in the 1930s. Their governments have invested more in infrastructure than Haiti’s governments have.
“You probably blame the Clinton Foundation for the problems from the past centuries also.”
Please, spare me such stupid comments. the Clinton Foundation is nothing more than a poverty pimp. Plenty information confirming that fact.
“Read my references. Haiti has some internal problems that “they” need to solve.”
English must be a second language for you or you’re too lazy to read what I wrote. Here’s a second chance to redeem yourself.
“The fault for Haiti’s predicament can’t be blamed solely on foreigners. Haiti’s rulers deserve some of the blame. No foreign power prevented the successor government of the kingdom of Haiti from continuing the education reforms undertaken between 1815 to 1820. The Haitian ruling class has a predilection for all things foreign, they prefer to spend their money in places like France, England and other places instead of Haiti. The Haitian aviation pioneer Charles Terres Weymann owned a factory in England and Sylla Laraque, a Haitian tycoon, was the developer of a seaside resort in Brittany, France as well as a large landowner in Tunisia and considered the third richest man of France in 1900!”
I dare you to show how I neglected the responsibility of Haitians for Haiti’s plight.
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“Potato Bubble head”, let me humbly suggest you take a course in reading comprehension. The “huge sums of money given to Haiti” were controlled by people like Bill Clinton and his cronies, Haitian and foreign. They were in charge, not the Haitian government. Haiti is known as the Republic of NGOs for a good reason.
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“huge sums of money given to Haiti” were controlled by people like Bill Clinton and his cronies, Haitian and foreign.”
The Clinton’s still run Haiti like a Mob family. If it weren’t for massive protest by the Haitian people, Michel “Sweet Micky” Martelly would still be president ruling by edict.
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has our token black but racist president said anything about the compounded disaster in Haiti yet?
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Well, we nuked Godzilla. Now all we have to worry about is King Kong.
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