Yellowface (1700s- ) is where someone of another race is made to look East Asian. Hollywood has been doing it for over a hundred years. Like blackface, it is dehumanizing and pushes stereotypes.
An extremely incomplete list:
- 1870s: minstrel shows
- 1885: The Mikado – still being presented in yellowface in 2014
- 1908: New York Age
- 1915: Madame Butterfly
- 1922: Fu Manchu
- 1931-49: Charlie Chan series
- 1936: Flash Gordon – Ming the Merciless
- 1937: The Good Earth – Luise Rainier, who won an Oscar
- 1944: Dragon Seed – Katherine Hepburn
- 1955: Love is a Many-Splendored Thing – Jennifer Jones
- 1956: The Conqueror – John Wayne
- 1956: Teahouse of the August Moon – Marlon Brando
- 1961: Breakfast at Tiffany’s – Mickey Rooney as Mr Yunioshi
- 1962: Dr. No
- 1964: Seven Faces of Dr Lao – Tony Randall
- 1972-75: Kung Fu – David Carradine
- 1976: Murder By Death – Peter Sellers
- 1982: The Year of Living Dangerously – Linda Hunt, who won an Oscar
- 1987: The Fires of Fu Manchu
- 1991: Miss Saigon – Jonathan Pryce
- 2006: Crank – David Carradine, still at it.
- 2007: Norbit – Eddie Murphy
- 2012: Cloud Atlas
- 2014: How I Met Your Mother: Slapsgiving 3: Slappointment in Slapmarra
- 2015: Aloha – Emma Stone
- 2016: Dr Strange – Tilda Swinton
There is also “The Ghost in the Shell” (2017) where producers were thinking of using computer effects to make Scarlett Johansson look Asian.
The most infamous example is Mr Yunioshi in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” (1961), Audrey Hepburn’s best-known film. Mickey Rooney’s Yunioshi is like a Second World War propaganda stereotype come to life, buckteeth and everything.
The most heartbreaking example is the lead female part for “The Good Earth” (1937), set in China. Anna May Wong, a Chinese American actress then at the height of her powers, wanted the lead. They gave it to a White woman instead, who went on to win an Oscar, the only person ever to win an Oscar for playing an Asian woman (Linda Hunt played an Asian man). It was one of the few films of the time that put Chinese people in a good light.
When MGM offered Wong the part of a wicked concubine instead, she said:
“You’re asking me – with my Chinese blood – to do the only unsympathetic role in the picture, featuring an all-American cast portraying Chinese characters.”
An Asian American would not notably star as an unembarrassing character till 1966. That was when George Takei played Mr Sulu on “Star Trek” (1966-1969). He was even allowed to speak English with an American accent!
The most damaging example of yellowface was Fu Manchu, the Yellow Peril made flesh, shown regularly in the 1920s on Saturday afternoons in cinemas across the US. It almost certainly helped to lead to the Japanese American internment.
Why yellowface? Some say it is money: White actors draw larger audiences. But it is more than just that:
- Entertainment value: Dehumanizing other races has been a form of White entertainment since the 1700s.
- Lack of empathy: Whites do not see people of other races as having deep feelings. That might be fine for bad guys and even action heroes, but not for love stories or serious drama. A White actor in yellowface will seem deeper and realer.
– Abagond, 2016.
See also:
- Welcome to Asian American History Month 2016
- blackface
- White American writers:
- Zora Neale Hurston: What White Publishers Won’t Print – of White empathy and Hollywood
- Three ways Americans write about Asians
- Hollywood
- David Carradine
- Yellow Peril
- Anna May Wong
- The Japanese American internment
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This is nothing but pure racism! No different than blackface. It’s a damn shame but not surprising. This is what racist Hollywood has always done.
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@Abagond…I was just listening to an interview with George Takei on CBC Radio the other day about this very same thing! He’s very clear on how he feels about this sh*t!
Here’s the link: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/q/schedule-for-tuesday-may-24-2016-1.3597178/george-takei-dares-hollywood-to-explore-wider-galaxy-of-talent-1.3597184
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i read that Bruce Lee wrote “Kung Fu” with himself in mind as the lead. The studio’s loved the idea of the show, and Lee thought he had the part. of course, Amerikkka being Amerikkka, they gave the part to a white actor.
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i was and am appalled about Micky Rooney playing a role of a japanese man.
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@Karen
Of course they did! What would you expect from Amerikkkan cinema?
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Excellent summary and observations. This needs to change!
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Weren’t the Pryce and Hunt characters supposed to be Eurasians? Wasn’t Ming the merciless an alien, the space, not illegal, type?
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One heartbreaking thing about the older Hollywood movies set in Asia or the Pacific Islands is the number of extras who actually are API. For instance, recently I watched the 1942 version of “The Moon and Sixpence.” In the Tahitian scenes, the major Tahitian characters with speaking roles are played by whites, but a couple of non-speaking bit parts are played by Asian actors, and many of the extras appear to be API. It wasn’t that API actors didn’t exist; they weren’t allowed the chance to play the bigger roles.
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When I watched Breakfast at Tiffany’s I always thought that Mickey Rooney character was pretty cringe worthy.
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@ abagond
There was another particularly egregious one in 2012: Cloud Atlas. Where people of various races are reincarnated in different times and places. Instead of hiring East Asian actors to play the characters in Korea, they chose to use prosthetics and makeup which either looked obviously like white people in yellowface:
Not all that different from Katherine Hepburn in 1944’s Dragon Seed:
http://media.phillyweekly.com/assets/image/2012/10/23/10.24.SIXPACK-DRAGONSEED_c44-0-605-366_r690x450.jpg?cac3bbe4dd56d22d37dd0c1ab292e9894b41ea06
Or they ended up looking like highly disturbing alien creatures:
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And so was Jennifer Jones character in “Love is a Many Splendored Thing”. The characters were Eurasians who grew up in Asia, spoke Asian languages, and displayed a closer attachment to their Asian family and background, etc., so it still feels uncomfortable to see white people portray them when their having Asian background is an essential component of the character.
Technically, David Carradine’s character in “Kung Fu” was also made to be Eurasian, one who grew up in China, but went to America to look for his father. But knowing the history of this show (and others where Eurasian characters are played by whites), one begins to think that the producers / writers specifically created a “Eurasian” character just so that a white person could portray it and still reflect stereotypical Asian character and dialogue. So, it still comes across as pure Yellowface. It is the Yellowface portrayal which is more cringetastic.
Yet Lucy Liu’s character in “Charley’s Angels” was turned into a Eurasian just so that a white actor could play her father.
Meanwhile, Eurasian actors/actresses are forced to portray either specifically Asian roles (e.g., Nancy Kwan or Russell Wong), or sometimes white/Latino/Native American/(even arguably Black) roles (eg, Lou Diamond Phillips). The only case where I can think of a Eurasian actually playing a Eurasian role is Michaela Conlin’s character in “Bones”.
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Does Juanita Hall (or any other black actor/actress) who portrays Asian characters (in The Flower Drum Song, South Pacific, etc.) also count as “Yellowface”?
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@ Jefe
Sure, Blacks too. On the list is Eddie Murphy in “Norbit”.
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@ Iris
You are right, that is a pretty bad one, even by Hollywood standards. I added it to the list. Thanks!
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@ Solitaire
That was pretty common: Whites play the lead characters in yellowface, Asian American actors play extras, goons and, sometimes, the bad guys.
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@ Abagond
Or they played comedic relief, clowning and buffoonery. I just looked up the (uncredited) actor who played the Chinese chef at the Tahitian hotel in “The Moon and Sixpence.” His name was Willie Fung, and one website said he is sometimes called “the Chinese Stepin Fetchit.” His whole career was stuck in stereotypes — mostly parts where he played the bumbling buffoon, but he also got in some sinister “yellow peril” roles, too. It’s so sad, the sheer waste of talent.
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“Does Juanita Hall (or any other black actor/actress) who portrays Asian characters (in The Flower Drum Song, South Pacific, etc.) also count as “Yellowface”?”
I did not know she was black. The make up crew did a fantastic job.
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What’s with all these Asian topics all of sudden ? Has Abagond just kicked ass on Street Fighter with Chun Li ?
Na. I jest, But fair enough.
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“What’s with all these Asian topics all of sudden ?”
.
I’d love seeing a post about my fav Jeet Kune Do instructor extraordinaire, Bruce Lee!
..Kato!
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@Iris: Cloud Atlas was just a huge cluster f**k all the way around.
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq-I0JRhvt4)
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@Andrew Beckman…I saw that commercial this morning on Yahoo and was so disgusted, I didn’t even want to post it here, despite it’s relevance to the conversation. I’m just so tired of how much the entire non-Black world seems to want to express — {b}”Anything but a NI**ER!”{/b} {SMMFH}
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Sorry, make that Buckman…
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Deb, I saw that this morning and thought about posting it
but I decided I would not take away from the relevance of this post
Not to cut them any slack, but the Chinese advertisers stated that they got the idea from an Italian commercial that did the same thing years ago.
that is no excuse because as you say, all it does, is feed into the idea that “anything but black” is better.
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This is apparently the Italian version that the Chinese ad copied, but it’s not exactly the same.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVlsB-Jvmjc)
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Drat, I forgot the parentheses. Abagond, please just delete my first try.
———
This appears to be the Italian version of the ad the Chinese copied, but it’s not exactly the same.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVlsB-Jvmjc)
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I know everyone is talking about the Chinese commercial. It does seem pretty racist to me. But what do you think of the comparison to the Italian commercial that turned a white man to a black man?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOjI6HHQpGA&app=desktop)
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@Andrew Buckman
Thank you for posting that link.
@Deb and @Linda
That was a truly disgusting commercial. And to think of how Asian-Americans and their allies are so quick to lecture Black people about their alleged “racism”. What a joke.
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@Linda…Hey Woman, how are you??!!</b?😄 Yeah, I read that as well, which was also part of the reason for my comment. I guess like you, I didn’t want to get into an “Oppression Olympics” which would obscure the whole “yellow face” discussion here, so I opted not to post it. And agreed — no excuse! Good “seeing” you…
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Heyyy Ms. Deb … working hard and doing my part to make the rich “richer” (Last kid started college, scholarships covering everything but the expensive a’s dorms)
I haven’t had much time to indulge in the world of Abagond or anything else
but I see you have your own blog… good for you. I may pop over from time to time, to see what’s turning in your World.
Stay blessed and good to see you too !!!
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@Afrofem,
I 1000% agree. I even posted the link to an article containing that video on this blog almost 12 hrs before Andrew Buckman did (in a different perhaps more relevant post thread) remarking that it was offensive. There is no excuse for this kind of racist trope, even in China. There has even been voluminous criticism on their domestic social media (ie, Weibo) about how disgusting and racist it is, and rightfully so. You are welcome to join the criticism on their social media platforms if you want.
But how does a disgustingly racist commercial advert made in China absolve any black people of their racism to others, esp. to other POC? How does that become any sort of joke?
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@jefe
Since we are both intelligent adults, I won’t bother with a long dissertations about how I think Black “racism” is an oxymoron. You will respond with equally long dissertations about Black people’s “racism” to others.
We can then proceed to argue fine points until doomsday or at least until Abagond retires. I will not be convinced of something negated by my own lived experience. You will probably be similarly unconvinced by my anecdotal evidence or any statistical charts and graphs I post.
Therefore, I’m willing to agree to disagree with you on this matter.
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Afrofem @ That was a truly disgusting commercial. And to think of how Asian-Americans and their allies are so quick to lecture Black people about their alleged “racism”. What a joke.
Linda says,
Afrofem, I can’t put the sins of China on the backs of Asian Americans because it has nothing to do with them
once people immigrate to the USA, it’s a different world and whatever attitudes they brought from home, at some point they will let some of them go, especially if they are in the minority — and they will eventually take on the attitude of their new countrymen (the good and the bad)
and by the first & second generation, the kids will feel and think of themselves, as “Americans”
That’s what happened in Jamaica.. Chinese-black unions and relationships are strong and are as common as white on rice (but is considered a novelty in the USA)
it took both groups time to get to that stage because attitudes had to adjust — and there are still lingering prejudices on both sides, but overall, everyone sees the other as one countrymen and support each other.
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Afrofem… just to be clear
I’m not saying that Chinese Americans and other Asian Americans are not prejudiced or have anti-black feelings, because some are and do
I’m just pointing out there is a difference between Chinese immigrants fresh off the boat and Chinese-Americans, whose family has been in the USA for 50+ years.
Don’t look at the Peter Liang situation as a barometer of how Asian Americans feel because (1) that event did not represent Asian Americans… that protest was led by Chinese immigrants and it did not represent the “Asian American” community
as you saw, there was a Pan-Asian American group (CAAAV) that was on the total opposite side and did not support Peter Liang
to me, that whole scenario, represents the dichotomous thinking in the USA… everything is coloured in “black or white” — and everyone else in between has to practically choose sides.
Peter Liang/CAN supporters represented (whites) and Akai Gurley/CAAAV represented (blacks)
The Peter Liang supporters were actually trying to break out of that dichotomous mold and stand up for themselves, but it backfired in a sense because all it did was create a divide amongst people in the Asian American community itself and left black people feeling betrayed (with white racists clapping their hands in glee)
I look to groups like CAAAV as balance keepers because to me, they recognize the realities of their situation as Asian Americans in the USA.
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@ Linda
We are actually on the same page. I made similar arguments on the Open Thread in a discussion with Benjamin.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-316544
I have seen the evolution of various immigrant and refugee groups over the years — up close and personal — over the years in my city.
I have learned that “discussions” with various commenters tend to resemble a carnival funhouse that leads to lots of heat and no light—and are a waste of my time.
Linda, I appreciate your adding the light of your wisdom to this matter.
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Afrofem
likewise… I enjoy your comments as well.
I liked your comment (in open thread)…I see you definitely understand the complexities that people face, trying to swim in and melt into this so-called “melting pot”
As an immigrant, I’ll tell you this though … its a tough ride !!
Generally speaking, a lot of times, it’s that mentality and attitude from back home, that helps to keep us grounded and not get sucked into the BS — especially into issues you don’t understand
because as a voluntary black or brown immigrant, the focus has GOT to be about the money or else, coming to the USA, makes no sense.
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@Afrofem…Sister, we’re ALL of us POC are but cogs in the wheels of the White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarchy (WSCP), some of us more than most — depending on skin tone and hair texture. And it seems the WSCP has been, and continues to be, singularly capable to date, of wielding the kind of “power” required to make “racism” such an effective tool of oppression. I know I sure as hell don’t have the “power” to materially affect EVERY aspect of the lives of any other POC, so I reject the racism accusations outright.
@Linda…“working hard and doing my part to make the rich “richer” (Last kid started college, scholarships covering everything but the expensive a’s dorms)”
Congrats, to you AND the kid!👍🏿 Gotta do what you gotta, my Sister. Think of it this way, “expensive a’s dorms = privacy, peace and freedom –Priceless!!!
“I haven’t had much time to indulge in the world of Abagond or anything else
but I see you have your own blog…good for you.”
Thanx, but I’ve had the blog for awhile (just haven’t written anything substantive for a lo-o-o-ong time cuz my world’s not been just turning — it’s been spinning like crazy!! Been sitting in front of this screen all damned day, trying to figure out how to disgorge some of the madness! Hopefully I’ll post soon so do, stop on by!
Blessings right back atcha, Sister…
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Look, we all harbor racist tendencies. Chinese Americans aren’t all that different from their mainland kinsmen. I fail to see why the commercial was disgusting. It simply indicated a strong preference for Chinese on Chinese couplings. That’s reality. “Peter Liang/CAN supporters represented (whites) and Akai Gurley/CAAAV represented (blacks)”. CAN resonated more with Asians than CAAAV, another fact.
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@Afrofem…“I won’t bother with a long dissertations about how I think Black “racism” is an oxymoron. You will respond with equally long dissertations about Black people’s “racism” to others.”
Yes!!! Because then — we’re off to the “Olympics!!” as you so clearly stated here: “We can then proceed to argue fine points until doomsday or at least until Abagond retires.”
Sister, my soul shook in recognition and harmony when you wrote this: “I will not be convinced of something negated by my own lived experience.” — which is why your dignified conclusion — “…to agree to disagree with you on this matter.” made me feel full and proud. Thanx for that!
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@Linda…“it took both groups time to get to that stage because attitudes had to adjust — and there are still lingering prejudices on both sides, but
The operative word in your comment for me is prejudices — similar, as in assumed superiority based on skin color, but not “racism.” I don’t however, EVER foresee a time in these alleged United States where as you explain of Jamaica, “…overall, everyone sees the other as one countrymen and support each other.” Not in my lifetime anyway.
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Yeah that Chinese commercial is disgusting.
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@Linda
Linda, I can’t even begin to understand all that you have gone through as a voluntary immigrant. I know how the IMF trashed your beloved country and forced misery on your people.
I only have an inkling of the pain and hope of your decision and the decisions of thousands of people just like you to uproot yourself and go to the US, Canada, UK and other points north in search of opportunity. I’ll bet it has been an incredibly tough ride.
Thank you for making it.
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@ Deb
Thank you for weighing in. I would like to read more of your observations about your world that is “spinning like crazy”. I sure understand how life can suck you up like a hurricane and drop you miles (and years) later in a strange place.
That is why I feel life is just to short and too busy to waste with activities that don’t lead to learning and growing.
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@ gro jo
There is nothing wrong with Chinese to Chinese couplings.
Why didn’t the producers merely present the young Chinese man covered in paint or whatever and have the young woman toss him into the washing machine?
You are way too intelligent to be obtuse about the optics and the message behind the optics.
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@ Mary Burrell
Things never really seem to change do they?
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“Why didn’t the producers merely present the young Chinese man covered in paint or whatever and have the young woman toss him into the washing machine?
You are way too intelligent to be obtuse about the optics and the message behind the optics.”
Because it wasn’t made for you or me. It was made for a Chinese audience.
Why did the black guy agree to participate in this business, that, to me, is the real shame. You are too intelligent not to agree with me.
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Afrofem,
Why did you evade the main point that I was trying to make, that very body looks out for their own? You’d think blacks would have learned that lesson from expecting whites to see them as people like themselves. Why would you expect the Chinese to be different? The discussion on CAN and CAAAV veered to which faction Blacks should expect to get a pat on the head from.
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Grojo@ The discussion on CAN and CAAAV veered to which faction Blacks should expect to get a pat on the head from.
Linda says,
no it did not, Grojo… it’s great to be a realist but you need to not misrepresent my words because what I said was pretty clear… my conversation didn’t veer towards black people and their expectations
the discussion about CAN and CAAAV was about who they (Chinese/Asian Americans) were figuratively aligned with…white or black America… because
when it comes to race, that’s all this country’s paradigm seems to really focus on … everyone else are just background wallpaper until white America needs to dust them off to show how “non-racist” America is.
keep it real but in perspective please
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Afrofem @ I know how the IMF trashed your beloved country and forced misery on your people.
Linda says,
it wasn’t the IMF alone… it was the US and British government, and our greedy Jamaican government and business leaders, bunch of thieves but that is a story for another day.
Deb@ I don’t however, EVER foresee a time in these alleged United States where as you explain of Jamaica
sad but true… it seems the only time this “compatriotic unity” comes about, is when white Americans are surrounded by foreigners, then they are happy to cling to a black/non-white face that speaks American “English”
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@ Kiwi
Your comment was right on the nail.
By accident, I can recall finding a White racist blog that dealt with racial stereotypes and non-human depictions of Black and Asian people. The White racist blogger depicted Black people as “apes” and Asians as “space aliens.” He depicted Whites, his people, as “normal.” His blog wasn’t worth leaving a comment on. White racism tells me and many other people that most White folks have a serious ego problem.
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@ gro jo
“Why did the black guy agree to participate in this business, that, to me, is the real shame.”
As distressing as it is to see modern versions of Stepin Fetchits on the loose globally, the real responsibility lay with the ad agency and production company that cooked up that toxic media stew.
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@Linda…“to me, that whole scenario, represents the dichotomous thinking in the USA… everything is colored in “black or white” — and everyone else in between has to practically choose sides…”
Yes, dichotomous thinking in the US is pretty much the law of the land, still — but not for long. IMHO, aside from Native Americans (for whom whites figured the gun was mightier than ANY weapon they could bring), Blacks, whom they herded here by the millions, still represent the greatest existential threat to them because of 1) our sheer numbers and 2) fear that our sheer numbers might all get together one day and seek violent retribution for the horrors they’ve visited upon us for so long. And for most Blacks born here (and exceedingly for those who’ve come here from other countries — because, well, “we all look alike”), the white, European “boot-on-neck” machinations have been the most, ever present oppression, in one way or another, since birth pretty much. It won’t be dichotomous much longer though, because to their mind, Latinos now represent that same existential threat to them because of the same two reasons above. And you’re right, those in between are, more often than not, expected to choose sides.
“The Peter Liang supporters were actually trying to break out of that dichotomous mold and stand up for themselves, but it backfired in a sense because all it did was create a divide amongst people in the Asian American community itself and left black people feeling betrayed (with white racists clapping their hands in glee)”
Sadly Sister, we are all cogs in the wheel of the WSCP — Liang supporters included. After all, divide and conquer is, and always has been one of their most effective tools. And you know that whole, “clapping their hands in glee” thing is par for their, very Machiavellian course after they’ve, yet again, successfully pitted us all against each other to their advantage. {smdh}
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@ Linda
Talk of the IMF would derail this thread. I will add that to me the IMF is shorthand for transnational thieves that trashed the Global South for decades before turning their attention to the Global North.
Perhaps another thread another day….
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“As distressing as it is to see modern versions of Stepin Fetchits on the loose globally, the real responsibility lay with the ad agency and production company that cooked up that toxic media stew.”
They thought it was funny. As I’ve said before, they made this stuff for their amusement. Let’s be real here, You’ve never seen a black person making fun of Asians? I put this stuff on the same level as Floyd Mayweather’s comment on Pacquiao in 2010: “”I’m on vacation for about a year, about a year,” Mayweather said. “As soon as we come off vacation, we’re going to cook that little yellow chump. We ain’t worried about that. So they ain’t gotta worry about me fighting the midget. Once I kick the midget ass, I don’t want you all to jump on my d—. So you all better get on the bandwagon now. … Once I stomp the midget, I’ll make that mother f—– make me a sushi roll and cook me some rice.””
Was it racist? Yes, but so what? Stupidity can be funny sometimes. I’ll be worried when the Chinese feel they have the power to Sinicize Africa. The problem with white racism isn’t the stupidities and lies, but the power they still wield to act on them.
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@Michael Cooper,
Yes, this is more like how I see where white supremacist thinking sees POC in their society, not as some kind of racial hierarchy or pecking order.
So, franchises like the Planet of the Apes which depict a world where apes are on top and humans at the bottom are a thinly veiled reverse white/black trope. Alien space invasion tropes are a thinly veiled version of Yellow Peril.
If I were to guess where Native Americans stand, it would be something like prehistoric proto-humans who were not yet civilized.
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@Abagond,
Will you consider doing a post on the topic “Is Black Racist an oxymoron?”?
I would like to understand what the difference is when blacks or whites do things like Yellowface, Ching Chong, Perpetual Foreigner, disloyal traitor racial profiling, etc. Is it only racist when whites do it? Is Mock Spanish racist only when whites do it?
On the other hand, is the Black Brute stereotype profiling and mock Ebonics racist only when white people do that? Or is it somehow the case that others can do that?
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@Afrofem…“Thank you for weighing in. I would like to read more of your observations about your world that is “spinning like crazy”. I sure understand how life can suck you up like a hurricane and drop you miles (and years) later in a strange place.
That is why I feel life is just to short and too busy to waste with activities that don’t lead to learning and growing.”
Pleasure’s all mine Sis. As long as I’m living, I’m learning and growing and sharing (and Lawd knows I’m in need of some rational, critically thought-out conversation here lately to keep the learning and growing going on!).
Like I told Linda, I’ve been sitting here staring at this screen all day trying to write myself out of your VERY, accurate description of my “spinning like crazy” (particularly since where I am is supposed to be familiar), still am. I’ll get it out eventually (have to, before my damned head explodes!)
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@Linda…“it wasn’t the IMF alone… it was the US and British government, and our greedy Jamaican government and business leaders, bunch of thieves but that is a story for another day.”
Tell it!!! And let’s not leave that thieving Clinton Foundation out of that “Greed is Good” cabal…
“sad but true… it seems the only time this “compatriotic unity” comes about, is when white Americans are surrounded by foreigners, then they are happy to cling to a black/non-white face that speaks American “English”
Or when they’re surrounded by a bunch of mad-as-hell, yet still-grieving Black folk (like the spectacles of “compatriotic unity” here in the not-so “Holy City” after the Mother Emanuel massacres (still processing all that as well).
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@ gro jo
” I’ll be worried when the Chinese feel they have the power to Sinicize Africa. “
Dust off your “worrying cap”. The PRC is closer than you think.
They will learn like the Europeans before them that grabbing a thing and holding a thing are two different operations with the latter being infinitely more difficult.
I don’t find bigoted jokes funny at all.
There is some intermarriage in my family. Two relatives married to Asian men, two cousins married to Latinos (woman and man). Anti-Asian, anti-Latino and anti-Black jokes all meet with a pretty stern response—-especially from the Black relatives.
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@ Deb
Writing and talking can ease the pressure. It wouldn’t do to have your head explode. (chuckle) Good luck!
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@Afrofem…“It wouldn’t do to have your head explode. (chuckle) Good luck!”
I know that’s right!!😆 Thanx Dear-heart. I’ll be plugging away the whole weekend! Nite…
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“Dust off your “worrying cap”. The PRC is closer than you think.”
How close? You do know that the PRC has been in Africa for over half a century, right?
“There is some intermarriage in my family. Two relatives married to Asian men, two cousins married to Latinos (woman and man). Anti-Asian, anti-Latino and anti-Black jokes all meet with a pretty stern response—-especially from the Black relatives.”
The same applies to my relatives,but a stupid joke is still funny, until people start acting as if it’s real. I don’t get easily offended. Real progress, in my opinion, will come when such jokes are seen as non-threatening.
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@gro jo
I do admire your ability to stand back and look at the big picture. On the subject of racist jokes, I think you have backed up too far to see essential details.
To me, racist jokes are not just stupid, they are also insidious. The jokes will become “non-threatening” when power dynamics change. I go into more detail in the comment section of Abagond’s excellent post on racist jokes.
As to the PRC in Africa, I’m aware of their decades long project on the continent. I’m also aware how they have stepped up their
jobs programpublic works projects and the pace of immigration to various African countries.African nations are by no means Sinocized and may never come under the full sway of the PRC. Yet, client state status may be in the future of some nations.
This Vice article goes more in depth:
https://news.vice.com/article/friday-on-vice-on-hbo-leaving-china-in-pursuit-of-the-african-dream
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@ Abagond
You’re welcome.
—–
Sorry everyone if I mess up my quotes. It has been a while since I’ve commented.
@Iris: Cloud Atlas was just a huge cluster f**k all the way around.
I wouldn’t know, as I was too disgusted to watch it or read much about it after I saw what they were doing with the racebending.
—–
The Chinese advert was downright awful. Looks very racist, with the Black man positioned as undesirable. With the Italian one, note that they have chosen a white man who is unattractive so it isn’t his whiteness that is being rejected. However, the Black man in the Chinese advert is handsome, yet still positioned as undesirable. The Italian one is still fetishistic, though.
That was a truly disgusting commercial. And to think of how Asian-Americans and their allies are so quick to lecture Black people about their alleged “racism”. What a joke.
I agree that these Asian Americans you speak of are wrong. However, I’m not sure why you are mentioning Asian Americans pointing the finger at Black people if you realise Asian Americans and Chinese are two different groups, neither holding responsibility for the others’ actions. Especially when Asian American encompasses many more groups than only Chinese Americans.
In China, it’s common for Black people to be asked the strangest questions, such as whether their blood is actually blue. Or to have crowds gather around to stare point and take photos while their friend touches the Black person like they’re some rare, exotic animal. Or to have people come up and try to rub off their skin colour because they believe it is dirt. I honestly cannot imagine any Chinese person from the diaspora doing these things, even if anti-Blackness is a common and widespread problem. In addition, those born in the diaspora are far more likely to experience racism themselves, make the connection between that and the oppression Black people face and be very different from immigrants.
@ jefe
Black people can do/say racist things, but cannot truly be racist because they do not have the power to oppress the groups they are doing/saying things to. It’s horizontal aggression and prejudice. Similar to how a Black person calling a white person `cracker’ is not racism because it will never oppress the white person in life; it will only hurt their feelings.
However, I would like to know if people think this changes depending on the amount of fame, money, power and influence a person acquires? e.g. There’s a music video by Nicki Minaj that has crowds of East Asian people acting like emotionless robots. While the average Black person perpetuating that stereotype would have no power, do you think her being a celebrity means she does have the power to reinforce a racist stereotype in the collective white mind? Or is it still only horizontal aggression that white people are turning into racism?
Why did the black guy agree to participate in this business, that, to me, is the real shame. You are too intelligent not to agree with me.
Maybe he wasn’t told the whole story and did not know until after it was on TV? Or he has internalised racism?
@ Afrofem
I love your description of how racist jokes contribute to perpetuating racist stereotypes. Very clear and illustrative. I would say racist jokes also have the power to encourage those who already have a tendency towards more overt racism because making and laughing at racist jokes in a group can give the illusion many people agree with them and that it is safe to act on it. Especially when the jokes are dehumanising and can veer towards the violent side.
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@Iris: I went to the movie theater and that was two hours and 52 minutes of my life I can’t get back. There was something in that film to offend everyone. I remember drifting off to sleep it was pretty awful.
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“African nations are by no means Sinocized and may never come under the full sway of the PRC. Yet, client state status may be in the future of some nations.
This Vice article goes more in depth:
https://news.vice.com/article/friday-on-vice-on-hbo-leaving-china-in-pursuit-of-the-african-dream”
The Africans aren’t complaining, why would I? The types of articles worrying about China in Africa are jokes. The Europeans have been in Africa for over five hundred years. The body count runs in the tens of millions.
“To me, racist jokes are not just stupid, they are also insidious. The jokes will become “non-threatening” when power dynamics change.”
Glad to see that you take the power dynamics into consideration. In the case of that commercial, there’s not a great deal you can do about it. You don’t use the product being sold, so boycotting is not an option. Africa depends on Chinese aid so if they throw the Chinese out for their racism they will be more reliant on those great humanitarians and anti-racists known as the white!
The fact that the white media was kind enough to let us know that we are the butt of racist Chinese jokes is purely out of concern for our psychic well being!
A malicious spirit might get the wrong idea, and think that the media lords are sending us negative vibes by saying, look, even the Chinese hate you!
I refuse to get excited by that kind of stuff. My interactions with Kiwi indicate that I have no qualms clashing with Chinese people that I deem racist. An ally isn’t a friend. The Soviets and the Western powers collaborated against Hitler despite profound differences.
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I don’t know what’s worse. The fact that those movies existed or that there will more movies coming that will show off Hollywood racism. Hollywood is one of those institutions that largely isn’t interested in progressing when it comes to avoiding stereotypes or casting white people as people of color. And even if such films flop at the box office, and there have been many, it won’t stop them from their insanity of screwing up over and over again.
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@ Iris
Thank you for your thought provoking comments. Your comments added depth to the nature of bigotry, bias and prejudice exhibited by African Americans. There has been a great deal of Sturm und Drang among commenters regarding Black people’s bigotry and its effects on other groups of Americans.
I agree with your characterization of such attitudes and behaviors in Black people as horizontal. Another commenter ( Michael Jon Barker) recently made a similar point in which he contrasted vertical structures of oppression with horizontal structures.
To me, negative attitudes/comments toward other people without power to affect their lives is minor. They may be hurtful or irritating, but they don’t prevent other people from getting an education, pursuing a chosen career, residing where they want or otherwise living as they choose.
I appreciated your insight.
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@gro jo
That can be a healthy response to certain provocations. Easier said than done for most of us.
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@ TheHipHopRecords
Comment deleted for use of racial slur.
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@ Afrofem
Re yours above to Iris, you’ve made a strong point. But I wanted to ask how harmful you consider microaggressions to be, first in general and then specifically those microaggressions which occur on that horizontal level between different minority groups?
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@ Solitaire
To me, anything coming from African Americans in US society toward any ethnic group is on the level of a nano-agression. Irritating, but inconsequential to individuals of the other group.
Black people have no power to affect the educational, career or residential choices of any other group.
If Black people had that level of power, the first priority would be upgrading our own life prospects and protecting the lives of ourselves and our children.
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Correction:
nano-aggression
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@Kiwi said: “So Black Americans are distinct from Africans but Chinese Americans can be lopped together in the same group as Chinese. Nice double standard.”
You’re so funny! Black Americans and Africans are distinct and therefore, are not the same people. When was the last time you saw a so-called African American walking around with a plate implanted within their lower lip or attach a weighted item simply to elongate their ear lobe? Our spirit is totally different from theirs. I could go on and on with this but I won’t and I digress here. Again, you’re revealing just how vacuous you are, not only of the Bible but of history as well. Therefore, your “double standard” comment is woefully unfounded.
@gro jo, I agree with your comment.
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@ Afrofem
Fair enough, although I was interested in your opinion about the other direction as well.
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Iris& Afrofem: Very enlightening post from the both of you.
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@Solitaire
I’m sure commenters from other ethnic groups would be better choices for opinions about the other direction.
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@ Afrofem
Fair enough. My partner has always said that to him, microaggressions (or nano-aggressions) hurt a lot more when coming from other POC. There isn’t the ability to impact education, etc., as you said, but he finds it far more emotionally painful, maybe because he’s less inured to it than he is from whites. He pretty much expects microaggressions from whites and is more surprised when it doesn’t happen.
Perhaps he is unique in his take on things. I don’t know.
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Hello Iris,
Thank you for sharing your ideas.
This is a long reply, but I hope I address your questions.
In general, I agree that blacks (and Native and Asian Americans also) do not have much power to establish systems of oppression at the macro level towards other POC in the USA. This goes in all directions among POC. Basically, this refers to oppression at the institutional level, from the highest levels of government (such as the Supreme Court, Congress, the military, the Executive departments), as well as more local levels of government (ie, state and city legislatures and courts, school boards, police) as well as educational institutions, hospitals, the banking and insurance system, etc. This also includes the mainstream media and Hollywood. Stuff like social clubs (eg, country clubs) which impact how much of that runs can also be put in that group. Even if a black, Asian, Native American attained an executive level in any of those institutions, there is little that they can do singlehandedly to change it much (however, I don’t believe that are completely powerless. Thurgood Marshall was a Supreme Court Justice right at the time that Civil Rights programs were expanded, and was effective to undo some of the systems of racial oppression until Reagan started changing the court and reversing many of those programs. )
At the other end of the spectrum, the daily racist microaggressions that one POC gives to another, as annoying as they might be, have little if any impact on the systems of racial oppression on a macro level. However, even at a micro- or nano- level, that does not mean they are not racist. And the endless shower of daily micro-aggressions does take a toll, no matter who delivers them or receives them. In some cases, the results can even be tragic. In other cases, they can escalate into something worse (eg, bullying).
However, I don’t agree with two other paradigms that many have presented on this and other threads.
1. The USA’s system of racial oppression is a vertical one.
The system of racial oppression (or alternatively, white supremacy) does not follow the model of whites on top, blacks on the bottom, and everyone else in-between. The better model is the three-pillar model (or maybe multi-pillar model) that Abagond described in the post by that name. Yes, white is on top, but the rest is not arranged in vertical progression. Native and Asian Americans (and Latinos and Muslims) are in completely different pillars, and face a rather different sort of oppression. Within each pillar, it is possible that there could be some weak vertical system of oppression. For example, within the black pillar, the intermediate level would have to be someone socially known and accepted as a biracial or very light-skinned black person or a part-black Latino who does not acknowledge exactly that they are black, but who is not acknowledged as being white either. It could also include rented Negroes (who are “black” but do not hold black political positions – ie, they lean towards white political positions). The vertical system of oppression in that pillar is better represented by colourism.
I am not sure if we can say that the 3 pillars are exactly horizontal to each other, but they do co-exist in a non-vertical fashion.
2. There is no intermediate level of racism that impacts POC directly
Between the extremes of racism resulting from institutional power down to the level of micro- / nano- aggressions, there many levels in-between.
You touched on this when you brought up the idea if a POC attains a level of wealth, power, status or influence and expresses racism, ie, does this count as an act of racism.
First of all, I say YES. But, I counter that it is not necessary for someone to attain that high level of influence before they begin to exert oppressive impacts from their racism. There are 2 aspects to this.
a. Impacts are defined by their “bubble / sphere of influence”, not by the race of oppressor
Other commenters mentioned this on other threads, although some disagreed with them. A bubble of influence could be larger than a simple micro-aggression, but smaller than anything on a macro-level. The impact could be large enough to the level that Afrofem referred to (ie, affecting education, career and employment, housing, or other rights or society resources).
I will give some personal examples of this.
When I was a freshman at university a few decades ago, I applied for a summer job with the Federal Government civil service (I lived near Washington, DC). Some government agencies are required to hire some local economically disadvantaged “minority” youth (Affirmative Action was still prevalent then). I was on the list that a head of an Entomological Lab received to hire as summer assistants, and the list was ordered to put the qualified, but neediest on top. However, I was not on the top of the list, but fell at least half way or more down. However, the head of the department skipped the people ahead of me and called me in first. Later I found out why. The dept. head was Chinese-American. Everyone ahead of me on the list was black. He saw my Chinese surname and called me in first. He admitted during the interview that he was obligated to hire “minority” summer assistants, but he was not keen to hire blacks (of which there were many in DC and PG County). In any case, that was before I could drive a car, and that lab was located almost 25 miles away on the other side of the county. I had no way to get there. I ended up taking a job at the Census Bureau, which was closer to where I lived. I also learned that that dept. head at the lab ended up hiring a Filipina woman for that job. He did not hire a black candidate that summer (but he did in subsequent summers).
I know of many personal cases (some very close to me) where black heads of a university athletic departments specifically refused to hire Asian American coaches or recruit Asian American athletes, and turned them down until they could find black replacement coaches (or players). Of course, an Asian-American athletic coach can continue to look for other opportunities (what little there are), but students usually cannot switch schools so easily. They are stuck and not given the opportunity to develop their talent.
Solitaire gave the example where blacks are often the gatekeepers of diversity programs and resources at many institutions. If they expressly steer these resources towards blacks and away from other POC, then they are performing racist behaviour.
In these actual examples (and I can think of many many more), the sphere of influence is way beyond that of a micro-aggression, and although not anywhere near that of the institutional level, they do have impact on the educational and employment and other opportunities of people. And yes, they are racist.
I also consider the situation of the Black Congressional Caucus trying to block the federal recognition of the Pamunkey tribe, or the Cherokee Nation trying to expel their black members as examples of this as well.
In the cases that you suggested (eg, celebrities), their sphere of influence is potentially larger than individuals with local limited power. Or at least they have more control over it. In “Norbit”, Eddie Murphy was not only the actor, but also the writer and director. So when he did the character of Mr. Wong in Yellowface, he had the character speak fake Chinese and broken English, perform fake Kung Fu, and express stereotypes of blacks that Asians are believed to hold. So, the impact of his racism is perhaps more than when, say, Juanita Hall did Yellowface in her movie musicals.
BTW, “Norbit” also won an Academy Award for make-up. This includes the “Yellowface”, so we can say it won an Academy Award for Yellowface.
b. POC can join in with whites or even other POC to augment the impact of the racist oppression.
This ties in with your question whether POC are complacent in collaborating with whites or other POC to oppress others. The simple answer, is, sometimes, YES.
The most obvious way is when one person who falls under the oppression of one of the pillars of white supremacy, but adopts or embraces the system of white supremacy that is used to oppress people under the other pillars. If an Asian echoes whites in promoting black brute, drug dealer, welfare queen, black male hypersexuality and other stereotypes, then they are parties in racial oppression. If blacks mimic whites in promoting perpetual foreigner and Yellow Peril stereotypes, or emasculation of the Asian male, they are also parties in racist oppression. If either of them promotes/espouses the model minority myth, they can both be parties to the same white supremacy trope.
This is where rented Negroes and other rented POC fall, except they collaborate with whites to oppress people classified within the same race.
There are countless examples of this. Even if they are silent to oppressive racist acts, they are a party to the racial oppression also. Pretty much all Americans do this at one time or another, so no one is completely innocent of racism. We are all racist. Especially in America.
The situation of the black actor in the Chinese detergent ad is another matter. I will address that later.
I am still trying to figure out where Chris Rock’s racist performance at the Oscars falls. Was it something that white people paid him to do, so that Chris Rock was an unwilling collaborator to the racism? Or did he play a role in creating the content in the first place and knowingly pandered to white audiences? Or was he completely clueless to what he did (I don’t think so, as he said that if anyone was offended by what he said, then they can send on a tweet from the phones, which were made by the same kids in China.) In any case, he has been eerily silent over the matter. It would help if he spoke up.
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@Deb
So nice to read your commentary. Where you been hiding?
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@Sharinair…“So nice to read your commentary. Where you been hiding?”
Hey Darlin’!!! Thanks so much! Not hiding, just trying to hold on so my damned head doesn’t explode. As Afrofem said above: “Writing and talking can ease the pressure. It wouldn’t do to have your head explode. So I started “talking” again here (because Abagond’s place feeds both my brain AND my soul, and I’m writing again (slowly but surely!) — just trying to ease the pressure, Sis. So good “seeing” you again!
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@ Jefe
“Solitaire gave the example where blacks are often the gatekeepers of diversity programs and resources at many institutions.”
Jefe, I specifically said that this is a common perception I’ve heard voiced by non-black POC but that I did not know how much truth was in it. This is at least the second time you’ve misrepresented it as my personal opinion. Please don’t.
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@Jefe
I may respond to other points you made, but this one struck me as needing to be addressed.
“Solitaire gave the example where blacks are often the gatekeepers of diversity programs and resources at many institutions. If they expressly steer these resources towards blacks and away from other POC, then they are performing racist behaviour.”—This maybe area specific and I may be viewing the idea of diversity programs wrong, but in institutions I have attended and in my area this is not often true. In my area native American and African American history and diversity are more prominent. There is little or no Asian American history or diversity programs to speak of. However, those who head the board are typically white men. Some blacks maybe part of the committee, but usually not in anymore of a position than any other to determine how funds are spent. For example they maybe able to advocate for their group, but not in the sense of purposely taking away from other POC.
For example, I will be advocating that my child be placed in an advanced program coming next school term, but wanting the best for her does not mean I am being racist towards the kid who could be left out of getting that spot.
This is tricky because in those positions whites have the final say so and the idea does not need to be directed that blacks are keeping other POC from having a program, when it could be as simple as they advocated and the other group did not or the white board leaders did not see value in funding those other programs.
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Native*
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@ Afrofem
I just realized when I wrote “the other direction” that it could be misread. I was asking how it feels to you personally when on the receiving end of a microaggression from a POC. Does it seem just an irritant as compared to microaggressions from whites? I’m sure that different people have different opinions, just curious to know how you perceive it.
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Up thread thread is a scene from the CBS television show How I Met Your Mother and i am guessing there were no Asians working on the show writers. producers, etc., to let them get away with this and i wonder did the show receive complaints about that scene with all the white characters doing yellow face? They show runner didn’t take into consideration how that might be offensive.
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@Deb
I feel you. I was planning on taking a long break, but realized (thanks to Afrofem and others) that writing on this blog serves the purpose of relieving stress at times.
@Mary
I will say some did find it offensive and spoke on it, but there was more support for the show doing it it seems. You have Asians who are doing their best to call it out, but the issue is how strong does that weight hold when you don’t have enough Asians willing to call it out too. That is just my take on it.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/15/showbiz/how-i-met-your-mother-controversy/
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@Sharina: Thanks for clarifying i don’t particularly care for the show. But i am glad somebody bought it to their attention.
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@ Solitaire
My response to your question will take some time to compose. I will respond later.
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@Kiwi…“Thank you for confirming my point. If it’s wrong to lop Black Americans together with Africans, then it’s certainly also wrong to lop Asian Americans together with Asians in Asia, as bro jo did.”
I agree, only because I know first-hand that we, Black Americans, are different, due only to the influence of the White Supremacist Capitalist Patriarchy (WSCP). Is it the same for Asian-Americans?
“Thank you for providing us an example of how even Black Americans apply racist stereotypes to Africans.”
And where do you think that SHTt came from??? Chimamanda Ngozi Adiche once said, “The thing about stereotypes is not that they are not true — but that they are incomplete.” And after muddling over that statement for some time, I got it! Now, I apply it whenever I find myself thinking some kind of way about certain things. It helps.
Black Americans, myself included, believed all that BS white folk were peddlin’ cuz we DIDN’T/DON’T KNOW ANY BETTER!!! All we knew/know was/is what we were told by the damned colonizers! whose “racist stereotypes commanded the day!!
A lived experience example: When I was in high school, trying to figure out what my major should be in college, I chose French — because I loved it and, I loved being able to communicate with folk different from me. Everybody from my Mama, to my Guidance Counselor told me, “You better major in English, or Business Administration so you can find a damned job! I ignored them.
When I got my BA in French, I was proud. I felt, “special.” I thought I’d done something most folk in my ‘hood had never done. Fast-forward some 31 years later, I found out there are PLENTY people who look like me that speak French — way better than me! It’s their official language! We NEVER learned any of that sh*t! All we learned was Africa was a “Dark Continent” full of savages, with unintelligible languages and weird religious practices/customs!
I don’t know if blakksage has ever been to Africa but if he/she ever went, she’d find the stereotypes are “not complete.” I know I did.
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@Linda… Watching, “Fighting for King and Empire, Britain’s Caribbean Heroes.” on the Africa Channel here. if you get it, watch it and let’s talk…
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@Kiwi…”From what I learned in psychology class, I would argue that Americans, no matter their race, think more alike than those from other countries, despite supposed racial ties.”
Again, I agree. On my first of several trips to West Africa in 2010, I learned that very lesson. But again I maintain, it’s the influence of the WSCP that guides them.
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@Kiwi…”I had the same experience on my trips to China. I didn’t feel any strange, mystical connection to my “ancestral homeland”, even as a second generation American. I realized instead, how distinctly American I was in a foreign land.”
Unlike you however, I DID feel a “strange, mystical connection to my “homeland.” I went into the rice fields (which made plantation owners in SC mega-rich while keeping Black folk dirt poor), talked to women about the whys an wherefores of growing my favorite grain (I even smuggled some of the grain, fresh-picked from the Gambian fields, in my suitcase, which sits on my altar of sorts, in my home right now. While I realized how “distinctly American” I was, I also felt it was a “Homegoing” — one which I definitely needed to ground myself in my African identity.
“But it doesn’t have to be that way. America has the potential to become a true, multiracial, all-inclusive society where everyone belongs. Every race can be American”
Having the potential to, and wanting that potential realized (outside of “appropriation”) are two totally different things, IMHO. Most white Americans don’t want everybody to be Americans — only those that look like them, which leaves me thinkin’ white folk have WAY more identity problems than we can even imagine.
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@Kiwi…A “Homegoing” is exactly how I meant it, though “strange, mystical connection” is also relevant to my experience. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that blakksage’s comment legitimately had more to do with not ever knowing or understanding WHY the lip plates (thank you very much, WSCP), rather than racist stereotyping.
However, while you might’ve not seen people in China eating dogs on every corner, the fact remains that dog, for whatever reason, IS on the menu: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/23/chinese-dog-eating-festival-backlash-yulin-animal-rights
But who am I to judge? When I lived in Texas and my kid’s friend’s Dad sent home deer jerky and a chunk of venison after he’d spent the weekend with them hunting, I politely said, “Thanks, but no thanks” (because I don’t eat “Bambi” or his Mom and Dad). When I was in West Africa after Ramadan and was offered lamb, I politely said, “Thanks, but no thanks” because 1) I don’ t like lamb, and 2) I’d been at the home the day before, where the lambs had been bleating loudly as if they knew that was their last day.
Not my place to say any of that is right or wrong — it’s what they collectively know and believe, for them. I exercise my right to say, “No, (without offending),” simply because that’s who I’ve grown to be.
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@Deb
To thine own self be true…the sweetest prize of maturity.
Love it!
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@Afrofem…“To thine own self be true…the sweetest prize of maturity. Love it!
Thanx! I’ll be 60 in a couple months, Sis. It’s all I know how to be these days!
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@Solitaire
I apologize for any misrepresentation. It seems we sometimes do that to each other, so I will try my best to look out for it on my end. Please alert me if I ever do that again.
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@Sharina,
Thank you for your personal story.
You have just given me the idea of something I might want to do on my next trip to the USA. As you may recall, I attended public school in PG county, MD, and it is where I go to on each trip back to the USA. It was one of the national flashpoints of school desegregation in the 1970s, when I was attending school there. Now the school system is over 80% black and 11% Latino and 4% white. I now would be interested to have a meeting with the school board to learn more about how they deliver their diversity training for both teachers and students. I could do it under the guise of my considering to move back to the area (not out of the question given the marked deterioration to the quality of life where I am now).
This could mesh with the attempts I have been making to connect with the local Native Americans there too.
Maybe I could compare it to a neighboring jurisdictions and see if there is any marked difference between majority black school boards and those where blacks are a minority. Maybe I could do the same with the community colleges in each place.
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I watched “Breakfast At Tiffany’s” as a kid. When I saw Mickey Rooney’s portrayal as Mr. Yunioshi, the buckteeth, the nerdy glasses, and the downright horrible English with a Japanese accent, made me want to punch someone in the face.
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@leigh204
So true! His caricature of a Japanese man was very crude and offensive.
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@leigh204: I mention up thread how repulsive that Mickey Rooney character was it was very ugly.
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@ Solitaire
“Does it seem just an irritant as compared to microaggressions from whites?”
A mixture of irritation and amusement. I learned a while ago I can’t control how other people treat me or see me. I can only control how I respond.
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@jefe
That is a really good idea. If that does not work you could go directly to the principal of the school. Tell them you want to check out the schools diversity programs and training because you are considering relocating to the area. In my area the principal usually goes so far as to tour the school and everything. When I go out of town in a couple of weeks, I think I would like to check out institutions in the area as well. I’m bit curious on how much the programs change per county and even perhaps a few states over.
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Iris,
Although this is a marked departure from the post’s theme of “Yellowface”, There are 2 issues I wanted to follow up on re: that TV commercial from China.
1. Using examples from China (or Africa or other overseas places) to serve as explanatory reference for Asian/Black relations in the USA or other non-Asian countries.
I agree that it is just simply “way out there” to use the depiction of an African in a single Chinese TV advert to have any explanatory effect on the relationship between Asians and blacks in the USA or in any other overseas country. To say that this has anything to do with blacks or Asians in the USA, esp. the treatment of Asians towards blacks requires invocation of the perpetual foreigner stereotype.
This is especially relevant as much of the evolution of the treatment of Africans in China has evolved over recent decades, and many Chinese American ancestors came to the USA way before any of that developed in China. What has developed in the USA (or Jamaica, or the UK or Canada or Australia or France or Saudi Arabia, etc.) has evolved largely in the places where they operate.
You seemed to imply there is something racist about invoking those stereotypes, yet also state that POC cannot be racist to other POC. How can one act racist and invoke racist stereotypes, yet not BE racist?
2. China is in a way different place in its Asian-black relations than the USA
There are 2 points I want to bring up here.
a. People in China are quite all over the place about whether that advert was racist.
Some condemned it as embarrassing to China; others see no harm in it and blame western media for blowing it out of proportion. Indeed, it had been aired for several months before it caught the attention of the western press.
(BTW, I posted it in another thread “Skin Lightening” even before it appeared on CNN or was posted in this thread, which I think is not too relevant – what does this have to do with “Yellowface”?) But Asians in western countries have been quite consistent in their condemnation of this ad as racist.
This article in English discusses a little bit about the reaction in China:
(https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/05/28/chinese-firm-behind-racist-detergent-ad-tells-critics-lighten/)
b. Some understanding of the evolution of sentiment towards blacks in China is needed before any comparison can be drawn to race relations in other countries.
I found an excellent analysis of the evolution of the status of blacks in China over the past century written by anthropological researchers in HK, but unfortunately, this article is written in Chinese. I have included the link here in case anyone wants to read it.
(https://theinitium.com/article/20160530-opinion-china-racism/)
The article makes extensive reference to Fanon’s “Black Skin: White Masks”, to early 20th century writings by the revolutionist Kang You-wei as well as the development during the Mao and post-Mao era.
Pre-Mao, China had been impacted by western scientific racism, that the “Yellow” race was a weak, undeveloped race that depends on western paternalism to advance, not too unlike the western attitudes towards blacks. “Yellow” as a race, was introduced to Asia by Westerners. And, like Fanon theorized, the best way for non-whites to advance was to become more white (or wear a white mask, as it were).
Post-1949 in the Mao era, there was a backlash against western hegemony and push for Asians, Africans and Latin Americans to unite as a 3rd world force to combat western hegemony. I remember during my first visit to China in 1980 seeing many posters promoting this. In the 1980s, this changed. I remember going to China again in 1984 and seeing very few remaining posters about the 3rd world countries uniting (there were still a few), but saw many public billboards promoting one-child. The article discusses how in the decade 1979-1989, there was a large backlash about the proliferation of African students in China with many violent encounters. Post 1989, China has taken a different stance, ie, it is rich and powerful enough to stand side-by-side or against western countries, and there has been no promotion of uniting with 3rd world countries to fight off western hegemony. This has left a gap for the current attitudes towards Africans to evolve into something that looks not too unlike what happened in western countries. And I think Africans should be wary about being lulled into China being any saviour to them against western exploitation or demonization.
Anyhow, if I can find an English article that discusses the evolution of attitudes towards blacks in China (that is not written by mainland Chinese), I will post it.
Finally, your remaining question
I think he was bought, just like rented negroes everywhere. So, I have come to the conclusion that even rich and famous ones like Chris Rock are bought too.
To tell the truth, I was more upset about the Oscars incident, as the theme was about diversity and inclusion and then those things were presented with express purpose. It was a slap in the face. The laundry detergent ad was racist but not such a slap in the face.
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@sharina,
As you know, one of my big schticks is about the history narrative taught in school, so I would like to learn where it is now where I grew up. I think the only thing we have is tokenism.
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“I’m wondering how many people caught on to the irony in Afrofem decrying a racist portrayal of Blacks by applying a racist stereotype to Asians.”
And I’m wondering if your wondering isn’t a case of the pot calling the kettle black?
Explain it to me again, how asking you to voice an opinion on the racist treatment of Lou jing by a racist Chinese audience is an invocation of the perpetual foreigner stereotype? After all, you do offer your opinion on every topic under the sun, why would this one be taboo?
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@ Kiwi
non sequitur yet again.
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So I have a question. Anytime a black person speaks on Asian anit-black attitudes, then it automatically becomes the perpetual foreigner stereotype?
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@Kiwi
So questions became straw men when? Oh that is right….I forget how you like to throw out nonsense.
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” on Wed 1 Jun 2016 at 01:13:33
Kiwi
Afrofem @ That was a truly disgusting commercial. And to think of how Asian-Americans and their allies are so quick to lecture Black people about their alleged “racism”. What a joke.
Linda says,
Afrofem, I can’t put the sins of China on the backs of Asian Americans because it has nothing to do with them”
BULLSHIT, especially when a certain loudmouth Chinese American is quick to blame African Americans for the sins of Obama, the odd street crime, involving a black and an Asian, etc.. The same Chinese American loudmouth is mute on the misdeeds of his Chinese cousins because the trip from China to the USA performed the miracle of washing said Chinese immigrants of all connections to China!. Funny, I recall my Sino-Haitian friends pouring soy sauce on everything they ate!
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@Kiwi
I know what Linda said, but please stop using Linda as a means not to address you falsely claiming a straw man.
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@ Afrofem
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. It is always helpful to hear other perspectives.
You have a good philosophy, but it’s one that many people find difficult to put in practice. It says a lot that you are able to keep to that path.
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“If I had pointed to the Rwanda genocide as an example of how Black Americans are hypocritical, you would be up in arms.”
Kiwi, you hypocrite, that’s exactly what you did to me. You also used the black thug stereotype to avoid answering my question about Lou Jing’s treatment.
You know what, I’m dying to see you explain the connection between the Rwanda genocide and Black Americans. How did that event show Black Americans to be hypocrites in the same way your lack of an opinion on the treatment Lou Jing showed you to be a hypocrite?
I hope you won’t try to evade this question, since you are the one who brought up the Rwanda genocide.
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An interesting interview at Salon:
http://www.salon.com/2016/06/01/asian_men_in_media_are_so_desexualized_rising_star_jake_choi_fights_the_hollywood_odds_against_asian_american_actors/?source=newsletter
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@Kiwi
“Sure you do.”—Of course I did, you repeated what she said twice.
“That’s why you objected to me calling out Afrofem for applying a racist stereotype.”—I never objected. I asked a question that was not addressed to you, but to someone who had a more level head to answer.
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@gro jo
Interesting observation. Pots calling kettles black can make the whole world dark. LOL!
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“How did that event (the Rwanda genocide) show Black Americans to be hypocrites in the same way your lack of an opinion on the treatment Lou Jing showed you to be a hypocrite? Answer the question.
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@Sharina
Hmmm, seems like a shut-down tactic to silence critical observations. What do you think, Sharina?
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Kiwi, Are you going to denounce your Chinese cousins for their anti-black racism or not? Don’t tell me you only see black people’s shortcomings and are oblivious to those of members of your own race! Why, that would make you a racist hypocrite. Say it ain’t so!
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@Afrofem
That is what it is becoming on this and every darn thread now. Thing for me is Linda already addressed it in a appropriate and knowledgeable manner. There was no need for kiwi to start picking a fight with you over it. I applaud you for ignoring him. Dude is dumb desperate.
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@Kiwi
Yet you just claimed I objected. Let me quote you:
“That’s why you objected to me…”
Credibility dead.
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@Sharina
“Dude is dumb desperate.”
No, Kiwi is merely a White Supremacist bully who loves to argue with and denigrate Black people. Some White Supremacist bullies are content to hang out at anti-Black subreddits, 4chan or Stormfront, etc.. Others get a special thrill in drive-by trollery like we see regularly on this blog and other online spaces where Black people gather.
There are others who feel it is the ultimate thrill to frequent predominantly Black online spaces and bash Black people where they go to relax and socialize. Those White Supremacist bullies are the most pernicious of all. Kiwi is not the first to do this and he will not be the last. What matters is the response.
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@Afrofem
Very well said. I always think of a white supremacist as a white person, but as has been illustrated it can very much be anyone who practice it.
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Hmm. Looking at that first pic of the “How I Met Your Mother” cast, I’m reminded of Halloween. I always see a few white women dressed up as a geisha.
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@ Abagond:
Please add the 1962 movie “My Geisha” which starred Shirley Maclaine. Just like Mickey Rooney, she was in yellowface.
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“There are others who feel it is the ultimate thrill to frequent predominantly Black online spaces and bash Black people where they go to relax and socialize. Those White Supremacist bullies are the most pernicious of all. Kiwi is not the first to do this and he will not be the last.”
.
Outstanding … and WELL SAID!
The racists do here what they dare not do offline (unless it’s with weapons AND greater numbers).
Old fashion WHITE racial/hatred is not going away. In fact it’s making a strong comeback!
Backstabbers!
Never trust or give the benefit of the doubt to those who have clearly demonstrated that they don’t deserve such trust ..
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@Afrofem…“African nations are by no means Sinocized and may never come under the full sway of the PRC. Yet, client state status may be in the future of some nations.”
I agree with your “client state status” observation. My trips to West Africa have convinced me that they too, are beneficiaries of what China has to offer, particularly regarding infrastructure (roads, electric light, etc.). Good or bad? I don’t know. But lest we forget, the Alphas enlisted Chinese labor to build that statue of Martin on “The Mall” — is that Sinocization of, or in, Black America or what?
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@Deb
Yes, Deb. There are a lot of negative things going on with that sculpture and Sinocization is just one of those things.
1. The “Alphas” as you so perceptively termed them could have chosen a Black sculptor and utilized Black laborers in the process and installation of the memorial. (Really, in D.C., a former “Chocolate City” they couldn’t find any Black artisans?!?)
2. I would have preferred a beautiful dark stone for the sculpture.
3. I hate that closed off body attitude (arms folded). Dr. King was a very sociable person (especially with the ladies!). In all of the videos and still images of him, there are few with him striking such a pose. Placing him behind a podium would have been preferable.
4. Let’s hope in the future, they don’t alter his features to something more European. Whitening of important Black figures is not out of the realm of possibility in this society.
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Hope this image shows up…
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@ Fan
Amen!
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@Deb & Afrofem: You guys taught me a new word. Sinocization: To make Chinese in character or bring under Chinese influence. I never heard of this word before. I learn a lot in these E-streets.
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@ Mary Burrell
I learn a lot in these E-streets, too. (Like E-streets…I never heard that term before.) Thanks, Mary!
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@ Mary Burrell…“@Deb & Afrofem: You guys taught me a new word. Sinocization: To make Chinese in character or bring under Chinese influence. I never heard of this word before. I learn a lot in these E-streets..”
Lil Sis, that’s why Abagond’s site is SO-O-O-O damned important!😊 We get to learn and share here, in ways that we cannot on other sites!
@Afrofem… Yes, Deb. There are a lot of negative things going on with that sculpture and Sinocization is just one of those things.
1. The “Alphas” as you so perceptively termed them could have chosen a Black sculptor and utilized Black laborers in the process and installation of the memorial. (Really, in D.C., a former “Chocolate City” they couldn’t find any Black artisans?!?)
2. I would have preferred a beautiful dark stone for the sculpture.
I totally agree with <BOTH your observations here, my Sister!”
3. I hate that closed off body attitude (arms folded). Dr. King was a very sociable person (especially with the ladies!). In all of the videos and still images of him, there are few with him striking such a pose. Placing him behind a podium would have been preferable.
4. Let’s hope in the future, they don’t alter his features to something more European. Whitening of important Black figures is not out of the realm of possibility in this society.”
Yes!!! I wrote about that “body attitude” here (do read the comments): http://lets-be-clear.blogspot.com/2011/08/mlk-memorial-dedication-bittersweet.html1
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@Afrofem & Mary Burrell…Ditto and Thanks!
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@Deb
Thanks for the link. (It lead to a 404 error page, but I went to your site and did some digging.)
Your commenter, The Fabulous Kitty Glendower really hit the nail on the head with this observation:
.
The greed (of the King heirs) and the malice (of the Alphas) are a deadly combination.
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@Afrofem…“It lead to a 404 error page, but I went to your site and did some digging.”
Sorry Darlin’ — my old behind’s never claimed to be technologically efficient (gotta ask my “second pain” — the most technological of us all how to fix that broken link one day soon)! Glad you went “digging” though!”
Yep, Kitty’s been a great critically thinking commenter since I started my blog long ago and in this, she’s dead-on!
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I just found this website that has a lot of examples of race changing make up from movies. Incredible
http://www.themakeupgallery.info/racial/index.htm
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@vanishingpoint
Thanks for the link. Some of those images were truly bizarre!
I liked how the site designer showed the actors “publicity images” on hover. Sometimes the differences were astounding.
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@Kiwi
“Looks like you missed my sarcasm. Sad.”—Considering you always put “end sarcasm” at the end of everything. I don’t think I missed anything, but your racism all these years.
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@Afrofem I agree, I was looking mostly at some of the “publicity images” too, and didn’t realize just how many movies ect have done this. Just wow.
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@Jefe
Please post updates on what you get from the school. I have a thought and I am not sure if it was mentioned, but one of the reasons blacks and slavery is a point in our history book is because the Carolinas were know for the slave trade. Native Americans have a spot because of there were tribes here at one time. I need to research and see if there are still some. I am curious on how this plays out in states that had less involvement in slave trade or even less Native Americans.
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@Kiwi
“No, I don’t”—Actually you do, but the only sad thing is that you think I care.
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@Kiwi
“All the more reason that you never got it when I didn’t use it”—Or it could be that you had a convenient excuse to go back and claim sarcasm when you got in situations that did not look favorable to you. Like this one.
“You do. That’s why you keep replying.”—I simply keep replying because I am bored and I am taking cues from gro jo. However by your logic you care.
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@Kiwi
The truth is you do always indicate sarcasm as can be seen by several posts where you put *end sarcasm*. Your claim of sarcasm did not fit into what was going on. I didn’t need to catch something that was not there. If I am wrong about something admitting it has never been a problem which has been proven by several posts of mine, but in this case only you are wrong.
“you’re pretending I wasn’t being sarcastic. I understand.”—Or I can just break it down to show you were not.
1) You made the claim I objected to you in a comment/question not directed to you, but at the room. In fact I was hoping Jefe or Linda would answer the question as they know how to present knowledge for learning and not angered opinions for show.
2) When you stated exactly it was not to be sarcastic, but more of a means to turn the situation to “you didn’t make an objection to the situation at all (ie Afrofem comment). It is a nice moment to dance around the fact that you falsely accused me of a straw man and falsely claimed I objected because of a questions, but nothing more.
3) You really just repeated a phrase I used on another thread when I made a sarcastic remark that you swore up and down was not. So just because you get confused by my sarcastic phrase as a truth of my feelings, doesn’t mean I am as narrowed minded as you to do the same.
“Of course you are. You’re on the same level as him.”—Which is light years above your level.
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@Sharina
Was there any US state that had few Native Americans before the Europeans arrived?
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@jefe
I would imagine no, but I would also imagine that there were no states prior to Europeans arriving either.
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Kiwi, Sharina, get a room!
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Herneith
I’ll pass.
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@ Kiwi
Awww… the old I know you are but what am I. You’re stupid response. You always pull that out when you want to cover the fact that you are wrong.
You can’t read minds either, but I can present several post bow were you attempt to read mine and others. Besides when you present predictable behavior it becomes common knowledge what you are doing. Get a knew shtick.
You make racist jokes about blacks all the time and call it sarcasm. I’m still better than you in all categories. 🙂
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@ Kiwi
“But I guess I should start to do so considering you obviously aren’t bright enough to catch the instances where I don’t, like on this thread.”—-As I so kindly stated with Gro Jo, I always believed you were engaging in sarcasm or a form of joking to highlight hypocrisy. However, it is at this point that it is clear you have not been and are only using the “sarcasm” excuse as a means to excuse your anti-black attitudes. It’s cool because you can be treated like any other white racist troll. Ridiculed, made a joke of (you have successfully done that yourself), and ignored (which I will do once I am doing playing with you).
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C’mon guys!
If I can laugh at jokes about Whites liking country music, you should be able to laugh at “Herro takey order prease”
There is literally no difference
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@ Bobby M
Boring and desperate for attention is a bad place to be, huh?
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Digital yellowface?
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/snapchat-doesnt-think-its-yellowface-filter-is-racist-asian-americans
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@ Origin
*facepalm*
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@Kiwi
Never came back because was not aware of the comment, but that doesn’t prove your point. This is explaining how you are being sarcastic, but not the comment in question.
So what I gather is you say erroneous things and then turn around and claim sarcasm to get away with it. Because when you are being sarcastic….you put end sarcasm.
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@Kiwi
The goal post hasn’t moved and you screaming it won’t make it so. You always put end sarcasm at the end of your posts. What you showed in that link is you explaining to Uncle Milton that you are using sarcasm.
The original comment that you have to scroll up for is not even sarcasm. Like I said many times don’t project your embarrassment on me. Its okay to be wrong sometime, though you are batting 0-0 lately.
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Kiwi
And I repeat…
What you showed in that link is you explaining to Uncle Milton that you are using sarcasm.
The original comment that you have to scroll up for is not even sarcasm.
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@Kiwi
Well why do you keep repeating your lie?
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@Kiwi
Don’t find it ironic. You can do it so can others, but in this case I so happen to be right, which is why you are still going on when it is obvious my mind is not changing.
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@Kiwi
Allow me to repeat…..
You always put end sarcasm at the end of your posts. What you showed in that link is you explaining to Uncle Milton that you are using sarcasm.
The original comment that you have to scroll up for is not even sarcasm.
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@Kiwi
You can question all you want about me. I don’t care.
You say racist s**t on here all the time and can’t even own up to it, yet want someone else to own up to something just because you say so. I never said a racist thing about Asians. So good look proving that.
Good night.
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@Kiwi
“Of course not.”—Glad this finally set it in.
“You have. You apply the Model Minority and Perpetual Foreigner stereotype all the time and defend others who do. Your racist joke about Chinese food proved I was right about you.”—Yet nothing on this blog supports that I have applied the model minority or the perpetual foreigner stereotype or even supported anyone that has. All of it is based on your wild assumptions because that basically is all you have. The only thing that joke proved is you cry wolf and that you can dish out a lie, but can’t take the response.
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Get a room!
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Nah!!
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How did I miss this one?
SO over the top and in bad taste. Also the actor doing the character of Kim Jong Un was speaking mock Japanese. What’s with that!
Cold Opening: C-SPAN North Korea – Saturday Night Live
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF-oLVPMTbQ)
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