Rachel Doležal (1977- ) is the head of the NAACP in Spokane, Washington and a professor of Africana and African American studies at Eastern Washington University. Most people thought she was Black – until her estranged parents in Montana outed her as White on Thursday June 11th 2015.
When a reporter asked her about it, she suddenly walked away. The video went viral. As Twitter went nuts, the NAACP met to discuss.
Plenty of Black people pass as White, either full-time or part-time. But Whites passing as Black is rare. In the 1990s, Joshua Solomon tried it and could not even last a month – not because he was outed but because the loss of White privilege was unbearable.
Her motive is unclear, so the whole thing is strange. You do not have to be Black to join the NAACP. Just ask Joe Biden. There is even someone the same rank as her in Louisiana who is White. Likewise, there are plenty of professors who teach African American studies who are White. If anything, passing as Black greatly limited the effect she could have on the broader society. Just ask Tim Wise.
Her parents showed pictures of her as a girl: straight blonde hair, blue eyes and freckles. They say she is Czech, German and Swedish with a touch of Native American, but that she has somehow been passing for Black or biracial since about 2006 or 2007. They say she is lying about way more than just her race. There is some kind of family fight going on, something about abuse.
She says she considers herself Black (she does not like the term African American) and is willing to take a DNA test to prove it. She says that the question of her race is a matter between her and the NAACP and Black people. She does not care what White people think and, in any case, she doubts they would understand any answer she would give.
The NAACP, as of Friday afternoon, is standing behind her. The head of the NAACP for Oregon, Washington and Alaska says that she is a good leader, the best Spokane has had in years, that her race is not what matters.
She is also on a city commission that oversees the trigger-happy Spokane police. When she applied for that position she marked her race as White, Black and Native.
All this takes place in the age of Caitlyn Jenner and Raven-Symone.
Raven-Symone, a “New Black”, distances herself from Black people. That is the opposite of what Dolezal does.
Caitlyn Jenner is a woman who was once a man: Bruce Jenner, the Olympic gold medal winner. Some argue that if Jenner can choose her gender, then why can’t Dolezal choose her race? If there are transgender people, then why not transracial ones?
The huge hole in that was pointed out on Twitter by @lizzo:
“My prob w/ #Transracial: Black folk cant decide to be white when the cops raid their pool party. But a white woman can be NAACP president.”
– Abagond, 2015.
Update (November 3rd): In a television interview on “The Real”, Dolezal admitted that both her birth parents were White, but that she regards herself as Black. Quoting Dick Gregory, she said being Black is a state of mind. On forms she marked Black and White – because we are all children of Africa. She says the police marked her down as Black. When she applied to Howard University she said there was no box to check for race. More at News One.
See also:
- The Wigger Fallacy
- Joshua Solomon
- passing for White
- White privilege
- New Blacks
- trans women
- Fake Indians
- Adrian Piper: Cornered
- David Myers
- The six stages of growing up White American – she seems to be at stage 4, which few Whites reach.
551
if a White woman, without Black face can achieve “visual Blackness” just by changing her hair and the way she talked, then what is race?
I knew a woman who says she was a Korean adoptee of a Black family. I tell you honestly, I had no idea she was Korean. The way she dressed, spoke, sang, walked, and wore her hair, i thought she was genetically Black! When I looked at her again, I could kind of see it maybe, the eyes, the hair. But she was kind of a dark Korean too. Finally I had to go back and clarify… I asked, “So you’re not mixed at all?” And she said she was pure genetic Korean.
But because of her culture, growing up Black. It is impossible not to see her as Black. To this day, I see her that way, The genetics don’t matter in my perception. She LOOKs Black, she sounds Black.. Weird huh?
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now that is cultural assimilation gone wrong
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she’s scrubbing her social media presence as we speak
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2y2OGNyArg)
“EWU PROFESSOR RACHEL DOLEZAL BLACK IS BEAUTIFUL LECTURE & HAIR SHOW”
that’s what got me, she is talking about the struggle, at least i know i will never be black
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moddied
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Race is from a biological point of view a “breeding” subset of a species which can be told apart from the rest of the species, so a breed, subspecies or true breeding variety. If we look at it this way it seems that “whites” are genetically not a race as they are too similar to non-whites, blacks as the main African population are not a race at all, but represent most of the human variety and thus races, and “Black” as in Afro-American is not a race at all but rather a very open population best described as “generic humans”, about every human trait can or could be found in this population, which makes it “easy” to pass for Afro-American, no trait disqualifies, there are just ones which qualify. Take Storm from the X-men: Blue eyes and straight platinum blond hair, but would anybody think she would pass for “white”? Just show a couple of traits, and you are probably accepted, certainly if you tell the accepting ones you usually manage to pass as “not black”.
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King,
Just another by-product of America’s one drop rule– she used it to, what she thought, was her advantage.
She probably believed she would never make leadership positions without claiming she had African heritage.
I saw her on TV last year and the first thing I thought to myself was that “her weave was terrible” and why didn’t the stylist fix it before she came on camera
but I think something is wrong with her (slightly touched) because she held a meeting with black women on “natural hair”
and claimed she was going to go natural and stop wearing weave?!!
I guess she was planning to get a super curly perm and call it a “wash and go”
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@ Linda
Ha! if THAT is true, she may very well be mental! I hadn’t thought of that! A woman who’s mental condition projects her as another race! And then she becomes a leader in the NAACP!!!
If you wrote such a fiction your editor would tell you you need to work on believability.
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@v8driver
Really, how is this different from
– whites pretending to be Native American and adopting a public image as such
– countless generations of blacks, native Americans, Asians, etc. (who probably believe that they would not make leadership positions in white organizations without claiming they were white – reversing Linda’s quote).
– mixed black/white people claiming they are Native American
At least in the case of Ms. Dolezal,
– she had black adopted siblings
– she attended Historical Black colleges and universities
– she married and had kids with a black man.
and then decides to pass as black and have leadership positions in a black organization.
Does that make her mental? Any more mental than Anatole Broyard? Any more mental than the millions before her who have pretended to be something other than what they originally were to get something that they want.
Is the question of why she would want a position in a black organization the question?
Well, at least in the case of Anatole Broyard, he was verifiably mixed race and had more European than African ancestry. His decision to pick one over the other was something millions have already done over centuries.
It is
why whites have recent admixture of Native American and African and
why blacks have recent admixture of European and Native American and
why Native Americans have recent admixture of African and European
If Ms. Dolezal does a DNA test, it could be very well possible that it will turn up indicating some recent African DNA. Then what?
I think it is best if Ms. Dolezal simply came clean. She obviously has connections to black communities, but fabricated some of her own family background, so she can just come clean now.
I expect to see more and more people challenged on their racial identity in the coming years.
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If she went to great lengths to deceive people about her background and such, then what else could she be lying about? Seem shady on her part.
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*seems
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@leigh204
She could be lying about her father having bone cancer for one. Deception tends to create a cascade of lies.
Anyway, even if it is becoming increasingly unclear who should be called black it is not becoming any less clear who should be discriminated against and racially profiled. The former ambiguity serves to undermine solidarity among those subject to racism while the latter certainty ensures that they continue to experience its effects. We already have racism without racists we’ll soon have racism without race.
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This is going to be an interesting story. I wonder why her parents waited until now to say something. I am also sure her husband would have noticed something awry also.
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After a reporter asked her if she was indeed an African-American, she said she didn’t understand the question. What the what? Then after further questioning, she looked uncomfortable and walked off. Imho, then and there she displayed she wasn’t being truthful.
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If race is truly a social construct then SOCIALLY she has been Black for years. She has lived as a Black person, taken on the mantle of “Blackness,” been considered to be Black, for bad and for good and whatever came along with it. Married Black, Black kids. She’s essentially been living the experience of a Black person in America.
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Told you Black women,
keep letting every “other” woman into your circles and movements and pretty soon, you’re image is gone.
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*ping*
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To Abagond:
“Caitlyn Jenner is a woman who was once a man: Bruce Jenner”
The key difference is that we know that Caitlyn Jenner, was Bruce Jenner. ( Even though I try to avoid all news related to the Jenners or Kardashians…)
Rachel Dolezal went beyond just stating that she identified as black, she posted a photo of herself with a black that she claimed was her father on Spokane NAACP’s Facebook page.
If she stated that she was black on her application for her job at Eastern Washington University, or any Federal or state grant she could conceivably be charged with fraud.
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BINGO! I approve this opinion!
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Sondis,
Excellent you found the photo….
and oops this sentence:
“she posted a photo of herself with a black that she claimed was her father ”
Should be:
“she posted a photo of herself with a black man that she claimed was her father”
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Uncle Milton
I agree with what has been said about this woman, particularly in the post by Atshley Jacobs – she has deliberately misled and deceived people in ‘reinventing’ herself’. I must admit though I am intrigued as to why?
“she posted a photo of herself with a black man that she claimed was her father” Did she claim this or did the person that posted the picture make that assumption?
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@Abagond, I was hoping you would cover this.
It is really interesting and I’m curious to watch the story unfold. It’s true she has black siblings, was married to a black man and has a mixed race son, and attended schools which are traditionally ‘black’ so she is probably very immersed in the culture. We live in a time where anyone can be practically anything they want thanks mostly to surgery. Through my life I have known people of all cultures who live what would typically be considered the life style of another culture for one reason or another. The real issue seems to me is that she has lied not just in word but on paper. We need to be able to trust the integrity of people in power.
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Also, the reporter showed her a picture of a black man said to be her father. And then she was asked if he was indeed her father, she made a face and replied, “Yeah, thats…That’s my dad.” Hmm.
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In my opinion this is just nuts i just understand why she created this elaborate ruse. She could still have been an ally in the black community as her authentic self a white woman. I can help but think she has some mental health issues.
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Typo;^^^^ i don’t understand why she created this elaborate ruse.^^^^^
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I have been looking at it like this. Online whites love to pretend they are black or some person of color in efforts to change the minds of blacks/POC or to be heard by blacks/POC.
So the real question is whether she has been really helping the AA community or secretly leading it in a direction more white friendly. Hmmmm…..
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As a person who has stood on both sides… I wonder what her thought are on the existence of “White privilege.”
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She’s like those pretend Native Americans. She’s sick and I doubt she was really helping anyone. The black population of Spokane is 1.9% so why was there even a NAACP out there? Also the NAACP hasn’t been relevant in years.
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The problematic thing about this is that she was getting paid to speak about her experiences as a black woman growing up. Well it’s hard for women born in black bodies to talk about their experiences and have America listen. This seems like a tool for white privilege. It is most offensive that she came in a black space and was deceptive and some other black woman or man was probably lost an opportunity because of her lies. I was on another website and the word “trans racial” was bandied about. In this one article they compared the Bruce Jenner/Caitlyn fiasco with this woman changing her race. Changing ones gender and now changing one’s race. The times surely are changing. Welcome to the new age.
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Didn’t white people create the NAACP?
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Wonder what the black gentleman in the photograph posing with Dolezal thinks about all this craziness?
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I think this also sheds light on colorism in the black community. Some people love to claim any girl with tan skin, curly hair and light eyes as “black” and erase darker women. She got to talk about being a black woman when real darker black women rarely get a chance.
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@Zena: Yes times three to what you said. Real black women born in black bodies can’t even tell their truths and get America to listen to them and white Americans dismiss them and their experiences. There is a lot wrong with this.
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What Mrs. Dolezal has done is nothing new. There have been many whites in recent and distant past that have pretended to be black or African American. Take for instance John Howard Griffin , who in 1959, wanted to find out for himself what it was to be black. He titled his quite successful book, Black Like Me. The difference between John Howard and let’s say Iggy Azalea, Vanilla Ice or Dave Wilson, a white man (2013), who ran for a seat on the Houston Community College Board but posted pictures implying that he was black. Some of these people do this for strictly a social cause while others simply pretend to be black for either personal, professional or financial gain.
Personally, as it relates to Mrs. Dolezal, her motives rests somewhere between a social cause and a professional status because after all, she is white, implies that she is black, her husband is black, has bi-racial kids, works for the NAACP and has been estranged from her white parents due to familial tension.
On one hand, I do not believe that she is a full blown mental case, but functionally borderline. Without a doubt, Mrs. Dolezal has certainly left me scratching my head and patting my feet.
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@blakksage: LOL at “scratching head and patting feet.” It’s definitely a conundrum.
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What’s her reason for not liking the term African American? How could that simple question blow her cover?
Most Black Americans understand that AA means black or use the two interchangeably. I think that’s why people got so worked up over Raven.
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I remember getting angry about Bo Derrick back in the day wearing cornrows in the movie 10.It peeves me to see white using racial appropriation especially in black culture. This fiasco took race appropriation to a whole level.
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I find nothing strange about this woman, except for the fact that she had a Black man pretend to be her husband. Back in the early sixties, when I was in high school, there were white boys who dressed like Black boys, listened to soul music and dated exclusively Black girls. Later, when I was in the service, I ran across quite a few white men who hung around nothing but Black men. Yes, these type of White people are out there and they add to the confusion of Black people.
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Here’s my prediction for this loon. She will get a multi-million dollar movie and book deal. The proceeds from said deals will enable her to live comfortably for the rest of her life. She will realize the errors of her ways, and go back to being ‘white’. She will find a rich old white man with a heart condition, marry him, thereby accruing more wealth! She will become a society matron. Seriously, you can’t make this crap up. I can’t wait to see what ‘The Onion’ or MAD magazine does with this. They probably won’t have to do much!
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@sondis yes that was on my wall this morning i couldn’t find it again
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@Ms. Burrell, … 🙂 🙂
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@jefe im still white, black wife , 7+ years in hyperblack neighborhhods, 5+ years here im still white
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@Mary Burrell
It came out of the Niagara Movement, which was organized by blacks.
We could use posts on both the NAACP and the Niagara Movement. Should put them up.
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Honestly don’t think she is hurting anyone. At least she is using her “blackness” for good, as opposed to Kim K or Iggy Azalea
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@v8driver,
For Ms. Dolezal, she must have started her interest in being black before the end of adolescence. She has been working on it for decades since childhood, before she solidified her white identity.
Did your immersion into black experience start after you were an adult? If so, then being in a hyperblack neighborhood and marriage to a black woman would heighten your awareness of being white instead of creating an awareness of being black.
But, could she be suffering from a case of internalized racism, not feeling at ease with her white family background?
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I know there needs to be some kind of united front from the NAACP but I’m interested in knowing what makes this fraud a good leader? Is it talking about a life she didn’t lead (what with going from a blue eyed blonde to “black” at almost thirty years of age)? I’m quite curious. I’m also pretty sure so many ears opened to whatever she had to say because she was “light, bright and damn near white”, oh the irony lol (Yay! One drop rule and plantation mentality!). Is her husband in the dark as well? God, this whole thing is just…smh. Beam me up already!
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I wonder was she white when it was convenient for her did she check the white box to get a better cheaper loan rate for her car,home,credit card or job? Or did she check black and not get the job? Her parents say she wants to create her own reality and so she probably believes this. The average black woman doesn’t have the luxury to go racially back and forth like this. Is this considered New Age black face?
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Commenters Gen and Zena bring up good points colorism does play a huge role in this scenario i agree with that. That was the first thing i considered. When i saw the photos of a what we now know is spray tanned kinky wigged white woman masquerading as a black woman. I wonder if her black husband knew? Maybe it didn’t matter to him. But i wonder why the black husband would enable her deception? Nobody has asked this question. I was listening to a podcast and the moderator asked people on the street what they thought of this madness. One gentleman said “If she is riding for black folks and doing good for the hood maybe it doesn’t matter.” That is one of those things that makes me go Hmmm…… So if she has an affinity for black people and culture does this make her a horrible person?
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I can’t help but think about that Paul Mooney quote about ” Everybody want to be black but nobody wants to be a n***er.”
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This lady is more black then a bunch of blacks, Clarence Thomas comes to mind. If Charles W Chesnutt was considered black I don’t see what the problem is. Most of the comments questioning her right to identify as black are acting as the doorkeepers to whiteness.
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“” Everybody want to be black but nobody wants to be a n***er.”” Including Paul Mooney.
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Ms. Burrell said: “So if she has an affinity for black people and culture does this make her a horrible person?”
Great point Mary. This is the bottom line of my post above. There are other whites that work for the NAACP that didn’t cloak there true identity under a horrible weave, un-natural curls, a bi-racial appearance and is married to a black man. This unanswered question certainly isn’t a qualifying factor to deem her a bad person, but I think people generally and understandably feel betrayed on some level.
This same question of her being a “horrible person” is also central to what leads me to believe that there is much MORE to this story than what we know thus far.
Flip the script for a moment and get a visual of her just as she is today in all of her fraudulent ways, but secretly funneling money to the KKK or some other neo-Nazi group. Now, … imagine the crescendo of the uproar IF this was the story.
She may have some UNRESOLVED issues, but I do not think she is an overall bad person. Perhaps she’s unfortunately misguided.
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Identify however you want. Doesn’t mean you can’t get called out for making up stories about yourself.
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@blakksage; Thanks for responding and you always make great points. That would be effed up if she was doing all this and working to aid some white supremacist group. That puts an interesting spin on it for sure. I hope for the latter of your post maybe she is just kind of misguided.
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I am not sure what to make of her particular case. I don’t get the impression it was a social experiment for her. It seems as if she really wanted to be seen as black and to live as a black woman.
You have to be a lot more white looking than Dolezal is black looking to get away with it, but some people with enough black biological relatives to be classified as black have passed for white. They do it because they want to be accepted by whites as white. The direct social advantages of that deal is very clear to anyone who as had to deal with racism.
So, on the surface, it is surprising that a blonde white woman would want to pass as black. Obviously, she wanted black people to see her as “a sister” not as a white woman. I suppose it is possible to become disillusioned with mainstream white America even being a white person yourself. She was estranged from her parents, is a black studies professor and supposedly attended historically black Howard University. Could it be that she just hated the idea of being white and how that would color her relationship to America’s racism even as an “antiracist”?
She could have been a really popular white antiracist (see Tim Wise). I don’t think pretending to be black helped her visibility while the ruse was working. Also, I don’t think eventual exposure was part of a master plan. So maybe this is just the story of a white woman (probably with a small touch of a mental illness) who wanted to be seen as black and did something about it.
Yeah, that’s a relatively kind analysis but AFAIAC her only real gain would be psychological if she was sensitive to the effect of white racism. White Europeans, as a group, are very clearly recorded in history as invaders, perpetrators of genocide and disease vectors on this continent and the one to the South (Africa and Australia too). Yes, the story is celebrated and retold triumphantly as “discoveries”, “christianization” and “settlement” but those are just euphemisms for terror from the standpoint of the native inhabitants. As a student of history, maybe she just didn’t like that side her ancestors stood on.
Your guess is as good as mine.
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*the* side her ancestors…
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This story deserves no more than a shoulder shrug as a response. Ok, white woman chose to live as black and did so successfully for decades. Shoulder shrug, end of story. All the talk about deception, transracial and whatnot is besides the point. Jenner remains a man who decided that he was more comfortable as female, I wonder if he went all the way? This lady successfully lived for decades as black. People are free to accept or reject the identities that she and Jenner opted for. What I don’t get is all the nonsense about “true” identities. I know lots of very dark skinned blacks who would love nothing better than to be white. Carol Channing’s father was “black” but she identified as white and only told the story that her father was “black” only when she wrote her autobiography. “According to Channing’s 2002 memoir, when she left home to attend Bennington College in Vermont, her mother informed her that her father George, who Channing had believed was born in Rhode Island, had actually been born in Augusta, Georgia. Adelaide claimed her husband’s father was German-American and his mother was African-American, a claim supported in part by 1900 United States Census for Augusta, George, which lists George C. Stucker, his sister, Estelle Stucker, and their elder half-sister, Connie Johnson, living with their mother, Clara Page; all four individuals are identified as black.[5] Channing’s paternal grandmother had moved with George to Providence, Rhode Island for his opportunities. According to Channing’s account, her mother reportedly did not want Channing to be surprised “if she had a black baby”.[6][7] Channing’s mother’s family was of German descent.” Note that she was told the truth about her origin only after she reached sexual maturity. Did Channing live an inauthentic life? The thing that deserves condemnation is the racism of the society we live in.
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” I find fault in her decision to lie. When did deceit become a virtue?” In a society based on lies deceit is a necessity and often a virtue. Please explain to me how she’s somehow whiter than Chestnutt and a number of “real” black people of that sort?
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Never heard of Charles Chesnutt see he is the author of quite a few books i would be interested in reading. See he was one of the founders of the NAACP. I never would have guessed he was a black man and it’s interesting that he choose to identify as a black man. Learned something new today.
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^chose to identify ^^^
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Kiwi, what are you on about, still smarting from our butting of heads on the Mao thread I see? this is a new topic. I’ve asked you a straight forward question, can you answer it or not? In what way is this lady whiter than Channing or Chestnutt? Channing chose to neglect her black origin and Chestnutt didn’t. This lady chose to create one out of whole cloth. Looking at the three of them I don’t see a big difference in phenotype. If you can’t or won’t answer my question, don’t waste my time with childish nonsense like your last post. You don’t like me, fine we can ignore one another.
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Mary, I’m delighted by your comment, that’s why I post here.
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I have no issue with her choice to be black, but it really strikes me as odd on why the elaborate lie. Her unwillingness to answer is making me even more curious.
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@grojo: OMG! What a complement you are such a prolific poster i learn so much from you as well as the other posters.
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@sharinalr: I would like to know the whole story and how this unwinds. I will just sit back and sip my tea.
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@grojo: I read this about Carol Channing a couple of years ago and i have to admit i dropped my jaw.
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@Gen,
I’m temporarily flummoxed here because I do not believe there is anyone on this blog who said she shouldn’t, “get called out for her making up stories about herself.” Personally, I’m simply saying that people should be open minded as opposed to the opposite, relative to Ms. Dolezal’s predicament. Close mindedness overwhelmingly limit one’s cognitive abilities to think-through situations and not get hemmed in by what’s obviously right in your face. It is very clear that this woman has some ISSUES that are unbeknown to us at this point!
For her to have such a strong motive to weave such a labyrinth of a story is suspect alone.
“A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it is not open.” ― Frank Zappa
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Rachel Dolezal’s life gets more interesting each day. I’m sure there is a book deal or movie coming soon.
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@Mary
I agree. Best to sit back and see how it all unfolds.
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not surprised it involves the naacp, they did give an award to Donald sterling. And was founded by whites and some blacks in 1909. web dubois was the only black person on the executive board.
“The conference resulted in a more influential and diverse organization, where the leadership was predominantly white and heavily Jewish American. In fact, at its founding, the NAACP had only one African American on its executive board, Du Bois himself. It did not elect a black president until 1975, although executive directors had been African-American. ” -wiki
I wonder what happened with her family to where she not only left but decided to be another race. it must have been some major stuff that went down.
“Her parents also alleged a much wider web of warped lies Dolezal spun about her background. A black man who Dolezal has publicly claimed to be her son is in fact her adopted brother, they said — a fact Dolezal confirmed to the paper.
Dolezal also lied about growing up in a teepee, hunting for her own food with bows and arrows, being abused by a stepfather and once living in South Africa, her parents said.”
Who would believe this nonsense
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@ Blakksage
My comment was directed towards Gro Jo’s defense of her deception and his comparison to someone who acknowledged his African ancestry and chose to identify as such without altering himself, to a woman who is outright lying about having said ancestry and building a career on it (unless her parents have been less than honest about her heritage). There could have been affinity and community without the web of lies, spray on tan and wigs. I have my suspicions but let’s see how this turns out!
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I keep reading about the hate crimes that Ms. Dolezal reported and that they may have been faked. Does anyone know more about this?
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I don’t like the deception, I do wonder if this is white guilt taken to the extreme or some major abuse she suffered from her family and ran to the black community and got support and now feels she is black.
The issue I have with it is that black women who are born black and will die black will not be heard as this fraud has. When you let any and everybody into your space they start to imitate u and claim they are u. newsflash it takes a whole lot more than being married to a black man and having some melanated kids and a curly perm to be a black woman. it is a history, you cannot make up your bloodline, you cannot fake being the descendent of slaves. You cannot fake the pain of not seeing people that look like u in the media in a positive way.
Then I saw it said she gave a speech on black hair. wtf? White women try to invade the natural hair movement as it is. U do not have a real fro u did not grow up with having a just for me perm put in ur hair before u could even read. U did not have to deal with that hot comb and being told ur hair is nappy. U did not get popped with a comb for moving because the person combing ur hair was being rough. u did not have to play with dolls that didn’t have the same skin tone or hair texture as u. Don’t pull experiences out of ur a.
I also blame some black folks for allowing everybody into our spaces and giving people passes and claiming everyone as black all while dissing other black folks that are “too black”. some claim all the racially ambiguous ppl and praise them and when some turn out to be a fraud or anti black then u wanna act surprised, stop putting them on a pedestal.
The sad thing about all of this is u will have too many that would rather praise and follow a white person passing as black or even speaking on black issues than an actual black person.
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Interesting story.
I saw it first in the CNN website.
Maybe we should compare it to its reverse:
Food for thought!
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^ the only comparison I can make is that the parents sure did screw up the kids. He was lied to about his race, she lied about her race, her parents didn’t lie about her race. this is apples to oranges.
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this is too tragic and entertaining, congrats u had all these privileges but not as many benefits as you could have reaped, u had light skin privilege ,white privilege, curly hair privilege. all these privileges and now u gone be back at one. “start back at one * in my brian mcknight voice. Do not pass go do not collect $200. oh wait u white again so u can collect $2,000
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Carol Channing was only a quarter black. Her father was mixed race. Her passing as white is understandable. Dolezal has no black blood. She can’t decide to be black no more than black people can decide to be white.
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@mstoogood4yall: You betta preach young queen. Good to read you long time so see and talk.
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u know dam well her husband knew or suspected something, no way he ain’t notice the chameleon changing from light to dark. no way he ain’t notice her hair change back straight when it got wet or was time for a new perm. oh my it is too crazy, she was probably avoiding the water too. there is no way he didn’t find the sun tan lotion.
He probably knew but didn’t care, there are plenty of black males that will fall all over women that appear to be black but not too black. that have just enough black features without being too black.
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@ mstoogood4yall
hubby probably just figured she was mixed!
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hey ms mary always great to see u. well read u because I can’t see u but.. u know what I mean.
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The only good thing that came out of this is black twitter hastage ask Rachel I am dying at some of these tweets.
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Her first husband married her when she was white. Idk if they had kids and if they continued to talk. if so then how dude didn’t know, wouldn’t other brother pull him aside and say u know she white right.
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@mstoogood4yall: What about the tanning? What about when it was starting to fade. I wonder why the husband enabled the deception? I know he knew she was white. I had to think she permed her hair to get the kinky curly texture. But they have kids she is lying to her kids and setting a bad example for them by lying. it would be far better if she was mentally ill because then this poop storm would make sense.
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Oprah is going to be all over this for sure. This woman is going to get a book and movie deal she will profit big time. I was on my Goggle+ timeline and one of the community moderators said this was a red herring to distract everyone from the Mckinney fiasco. I don’t know if that’s true but it’s food for thought.
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One tweet that made my day and there were many of them that were clever. “My problem with “black folk can’t decided to be white when cops raid their pool party. But a white woman can be NAACP President.”
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“My problem with “transracial black folk” ^^^^ can’t decide to be white when cops raid their pool party.
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I just barely learned about this yesterday. I am highly offended and annoyed. Here is a white woman who can enjoy all of the perks and benefits of having white skin in a society/world that showers down privileges on white skinned individuals. Why did she feel the need to do this? I understand why so many people of color have “passed” as whites in the past (my grandfather told me about a cousin of his who did this and was never seen or heard from again.). There were much better opportunities available to them as whites then as poc. But what social advantages would be gained by whites passing as Blacks? Was she trying to be a “better” Black than Blacks themselves? Is this “white guilt” gone wrong? What in the name of appropriation hell?
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@ mary
yeah that’s my whole issue with it, she can be white again if it gets too tough. And she put that she is mixed, which would be more believable and she could still retain some of her privilege. She will never know what it is like to be a darker skinned woman.
Then the bs of ppl trying to compare black women assimilating to white people appropriating culture. ppl can’t seem to get that assimilation happens as a way of survival u are trying to conform to the dominate culture, appropriation is when u are dipping in and out of a marginalized culture and doing so to look cool/ trendy.
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oh my goodness I can’t resist this sums this up perfectly http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=deception+song+lion+king+2&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=4DF9DCE90A39EEC22F814DF9DCE90A39EEC22F81
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Another thing that p***** me off is that once the dust has settled she can go back to her white privilege as if nothing happened. People are going to excuse her strange behavior as an elaborate performance art piece that went on for close to a decade. I’ve already seen comments that are praising her for being “beyond skin color” and “she does more for the African American community than Black people”. Blackness should not be something that you put on and take off when you feel like it.
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mstoogood4yall: It would do many of our people good to learn the difference between “culture appropriation ” and “culture assimilation.”
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@misstoogood4yall
Yes, it is disgusting and embarrassing how some Black people fawn over the slightest interest non Blacks/whites express in us. Some of us are just so hungry for white/non Black validation. Some Black people remind me of the social rejects from high school. It’s like whites/non Blacks are the cool popular kids and when they deign to speak to Black people some Blacks get excited. “They finally see me!” “I get to sit with the popular kids!” Some of us are truly lost.
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@ Kiwi
She would have to have her own personal reasons for this elaborate scheme. I don’t want to flat out call her crazy because I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist. I have a feeling that even if she does explain her motivations they would only make sense to her and no one else.
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More thoughts on the issue.
The first person I presented this case to here in Maputo (Mozambique) commented almost immediately: “oh, she must be a spy, for sure!”
This was a spontaneous, cold assessment. Quick and without much thinking on the issue. Up in this thread I see some echoes of the same doubt about Rachel Dolezal.
But personally I feel some sympathy for the woman.
It’s difficult for me to see her behavior simply as deceptive.
I really think that in this case most probably identity issues are at play. As a girl she grew up surrounded by black siblings and, probably, black culture (I’m not sure…) and, at this stage, she probably felt deeply admiration and identification with “things black”, so to speak.
After a while the logical step, is to see herself completely as a black person, and not wanting to have many things in common with white people.
I think that the parallel with cases of trans-something (transgender, trans-racial, etc) makes sense.
If we look at so called transgender issues we see at least 3 stages of other-identification: stage 0 = the person belongs to a gender and identifies with it (no problem!), stage 1 = the person belongs to a gender but identifies partially with the opposite (maybe here we can put the cases of homosexuality), stage 2 = the person belongs to a gender but identifies fully with the opposite and the logical step is to submit him/herself to a gender change medical procedure, hormone therapy, etc.
Tim Wise belongs, maybe (I must admit I don’t know what he writes…) to the stage 2, but Rachel Dolezal is most probably a stage 3 case of trans-racial other-identification.
But I think that if we look closely in history and even today’s world we will see many more cases that can really be food for thought:
* Recently a guy passed away here in Mozambique who came originally from the Netherlands and later changed his nationality to Mozambican. The guy was “pure” White. The interesting thing about him that made him object of some conversations was the fact that he tried during the nationality change, to change also his name from Paulus Gerdes to Paulo Nhantumbo, where Paulus transformed to Paulo (Portuguese name and therefore usual in Mozambique as a former colony of Portugal) and Gerdes transformed to Nhantumbo (Bantu family name from the Shangaan ethnic group in the Southern part of Mozambique). The guy was a mathematician who specialized in ethno-mathematics.
Apparently this change was successful until somebody looked closely at it and forced a reversion to the original family name.
Fact is that in Mozambique we have a group of people descended from the European settlers – mostly of White Portuguese descent – and nobody asks them to change their names in order to become “true” Mozambicans. In the contrary: we extend the very definition of the Mozambican nationality to encompass people of different races.
* In the 90’s a White South African was nicknamed “the White Zulu” because of his strong allegiance to the Zulu culture, in particular, the musical and dance expressions. I’m speaking about Johnny Clegg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Clegg)
* If we look at prominent figures in the United States we will see that the many if not most are clearly mixed race individuals (Dubois, Malcom X, etc.). I know that they are normally regarded as Blacks in the USA but for an African like me, this is interesting nevertheless. Despite not being “totally Black”, so to speak, they are “totally Black” in their attitude regarding the racial dispute between the two racial groups. In Southern African countries (Mozambique, Zimbabwe, South Africa, etc) mixed-race individuals tend to see themselves as “not Black and not White”, and to distance themselves from the racial disputes between these two groups. I remember some conversation where, after the first time Obama became elected President of USA, some “mulatto” individual was claiming that “that guy is not Black but is like me (mulatto)” in a discussion with a Black individual who was exulting with the prospect of the first black President of a major Western power.
* Extreme identification with another phenotype is not that rare. Adolf Hitler was really tall, white blond with blue eyes? I don’t think so and nevertheless he, more than anybody else, could go to war to “protect and extend the space of existence” of this particular phenotype across Europe and beyond.
* I heard of some White guy who went to armed struggle to defend the liberation of black slaves in the USA. I’m speaking of John Brown. Is not this a case of self-identification with the other?
* Ah… and in fiction… remember Avatar and the white character who transformed himself in a native in body and spirit, so to speak, leading them in the final battle against the invaders?
More food for thought…
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Kiwi, you told me you didn’t have a problem with her “…decision to identify as black. I find fault in her decision to lie. When did deceit become a virtue?” Hahahaha, you’re too funny, how the devil do you propose she identify as black without lying? I know you hate me but we are on the same side on this issue because we both agree she has the right to lie about her racial identity. Was it a lesser lie for Chestnutt to be identified as black when anybody who looks at him would correctly put him in the white box, as far as phenotype goes? Does this lady have a problem? A form of racial Münchausen syndrome by proxy comes to mind, where she plays the role of caregiver and the black community that of the child. This is just speculation of course, she may just as likely be the only sane person to make sense of the racial identity racket that has been going on since the 17th century.
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Here’s the interview where a reporter asks her about the hate crimes against her and about her father’s race (at the end).
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKRj_h7vmMM)
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..I have no problem understanding (for the most part) why this fraudulent poser decided to “live” as a Black woman. Not to be facetious, but Black folks are the shizznit and damn near everY ethnicity wants to borrow their coolness, beauty, swag on some level-whether they admit or not, the proof is in the Global Imitational “puddiing” if you will! lbvs I have a homgurl who hails from that “bleached out” state Montana, and she admitted years ago that she couldn’t away from the whiteness of her environment fast enough. Why? Because she found it boring, often racist and most of all lacking in diversity. In case you’re wondering, yes she loooves her some Black men and folks too-the darker the better in her unashamed book, and she keeps it 100% so I’ve never had a problem with that (unlike Rachel).
The only thing that annoys me more than her fakin’ da’ funk is that there are way too many POC (especially Black folks) that appear so, well desperate to give her a “hood pass” because she is supposedly “down” for the Black community..Realllly? Is all I can say about that right now, Reallly? @mstoogood, @Mary B., @V-8 driver, @mochasister, and a few others on here: What ya’ll said, AlL Day, so on point!!!
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pudding..white homegurl..typos
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@Mz. Nikita: I read you queen. Montana seems very boring and very white. I always thought of states like Montana to be very unblack friendly. Can’t imagine why any black people would want to live there. You are right whether non black people want to admit it or not we are a beautiful people and i can see why they want to hijack our culture.
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But we loved the hell out of Teena Marie. But she wasn’t doing any kind of tom foolery like this.
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This interview with one of Rachel Dolezal’s adopted brothers in People magazine, if accurate paints a tale of deception:
http://www.people.com/article/rachel-dolezal-brother-ezra-interview
In a new interview, one of Rachel Dolezal’s adopted siblings calls her apparently years-long disguise as biracial “basically blackface” and said she asked him years earlier not to “blow her cover.”
“She just told me, ‘Over here, I’m going to be considered black, and I have a black father. Don’t blow my cover,’ ” Ezra Dolezal, who is of African-American descent, told BuzzFeed.
Ezra offered this theory for Rachel’s alleged deception: He claims she said she was mistreated as one of the few white students at Howard University, a historically black college, where she graduated in 2002.
“She used to tell us that teachers treated her differently than other people and a lot of them acted like they didn’t want her there,” Ezra told Buzzfeed. “Because of her work in African-American art, they thought she was a black student during her application, but they ended up with a white person.”
Ezra also commented on other parts of Rachel’s supposedly invented biography. He said she’s “never been to Africa in her entire life,” after she claimed she lived in South Africa. He also said that while their parents were strict and used corporal punishment, she wasn’t abused by her parents, which she had previously claimed.
He also said that he didn’t believe that she had been the subject of race-based attacks, which she had previously claimed to police.
“She made herself into a martyr on purpose for people to feel sorry for her and to help her,” Ezra said.
“It’s like what psychologists call self-hating,” he continued. “She had no reason not to like herself being white. She was an awesome artist and she could have accomplished everything she did, if she had stayed exactly the same.”
Rachel gained custody of one of her younger brothers in 2010, according to Buzzfeed, and now claims him as her birth son.
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Isn’t there such a thing as a pathological liar?
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“Mary @ I wonder if her black husband knew? Maybe it didn’t matter to him. But i wonder why the black husband would enable her deception? Nobody has asked this question.”
Linda says,
Mary, I tell you what, her hairdresser dam sure knew who she was.
To me, this whole thing is funny because Only in America, could this woman get away with calling herself “black” — with her barely-there tan
outside of the USA, even with the braids, this woman would never have been seen as “black”
She throws wigs and weaves on her head, then — Walla, instant acceptance by everyone around her – black, white and in-between (and I’m just as guilty, because I went with the flow as well. I just questioned her weave choices)
The real question that needs to be asked is:
“would black Americans have taken Rachel seriously or seen her as legitimate, if she had tried to be a leader for black American civil rights as a white woman?
my answer is “no”– even if her last name was Clinton
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Agabond……..I think I asked you a question related to this very subject in a previous post (before this story even broke!). Was I right or wrong?
For the record, though, this woman is crazy. And yes it is messed up that she gets paid to lecture about black struggles when she has never really experienced it. as others have said, she can go back to being white as son as being black gets hard. Assuming that she was ever really treated as a black person and not just a tanned white woman with kinky hair. Maybe she was trying to do what Mindy Kaling’s brother did.
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@Linda: Good points to ponder. Well if she was rejected in college like her brother said she was maybe she should have used her talents and skills somewhere else unless her real passion was to be an ally in the black community as a force for change. Maybe she could have been like Tim Wise.
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It was the Jerry Hough post.
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re: munubantu
Avatar is a good illustrative example.
re: Linda
Yep, you’re right.
Just like the Avatar. He could not be taken seriously to help the Navi in a human body, but in his avatar body, he can mix with the Natives. In the end, they made him Navi in body and he found his true calling and even a hero among the Navi.
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I read the interview that one of her adopted brothers did with People. I take it back about not wanting to call her crazy. This woman is nuttier than a squirrel’s storage for winter! I don’t buy this crap about how the Black faculty and Black students mistreated her so that’s why she decided to lie about her ethnicity. She’s lied about so many other things who can tell when she’s telling the truth. I really wish people would quit excusing her behavior. The wonders of white privilege never cease to amaze me.
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@Mary B. right back atcha’ fellow queen, yes the World has long known Black folks are “all that”, plus a bag o’ chips with a soda on the side! ; ) It would be really awesome if the whole majority of Black folks realized that for themselves..Would she have been listened to as much by Black folks had she identified as what her birth ethnicity is, “White?” That is a rather complex question, but I will say this much: Do not underestimate the “love” (i.e. skin and/or status worship) that white women have, and still do receive by both their own folks (especially men) POC-and sadly enough, the Black community has a long history of being High on that list of admirers as well
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..Sidenote: Re: Teena Marie, ain’t nothin’ wrong with that-she was the square biz!
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@jefe my home town, of about 3,000, was hyperwhite. There were about 4 black kids in my middle school. I can’t remember any interaction with black people, until high school, I think we had one black girl in our graduating class (it was only a class of 75, a small private school). Then St. Bonaventure, in 1988, very white, indeed. when I transfered to USC in Los Angeles, then I had my multicultural awakening.
I like to have this ‘egalitarian’ vibe off of it, but maybe i was selectively rebelling against what i didn’t like of white christian american culture, maybe dolezal has a point here, didn’t think of it like that, i’m just sayin, not that I’m going to go down the same path, here. I do think it’s BS, her parents are outing her, etc.
@mz.nikita i was trying to show that I was trying to draw some other people into this conversation, and a different opinion, ie my one friend off fb, who is black, and was supporting dolezal (and yes, she took some ish for that)? because obviously there is a ‘weight’ difference, in my estimation, of the opinion of a person who is black, as opposed to my opinion on this topic.
yes there is a large difference between getting a ‘hood pass’ and this type of behavior. I know about getting a hood pass. And I pretty much categorically rejected many if not most parts of the culture that was ‘served’ to me here in NJ. But I don’t know this woman and can’t speak to her inner psychological mechanisms.
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very interesting!
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lol
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Corrections
In my last intervention I made several errors that can compromise a proper understanding of my message. I try to correct them here:
– In the part where reads
“she probably felt DEEPLY admiration and identification with “things black””
It should be:
“she probably felt DEEP admiration and identification with “things black””
– In the part where reads
“After a while the logical step, IS to see herself completely as a black person”
It should be with the verb in the past
“After a while the logical step, WAS to see herself completely as a black person”
– In the paragraph
“Tim Wise belongs, maybe (I must admit I don’t know what he writes…) to the stage 2, but Rachel Dolezal is most probably a stage 3 case of trans-racial other-identification.”
The numbers are incorrect. Should be 1 and 2 (instead of 2 and 3, respectively).
– In the paragraph
“If we look at prominent figures in the United States we will see that the many if not most are clearly mixed race individuals …”
It should be include the word “black” before the word “prominent”.
Thanks for your attention!
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V-8 driver: That was a good post i noticed you used the word “hyperwhite” that is an interesting word. I guess it’s extremely white. I guess hyper white sounds better than “lilly white.”
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@misstoogood4yall
Rofl.
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@Mochasister
I am not ready to say full on crazy just yet but read a post where she told a Hispanic student they did not look hispanic enough to participate in a class activity. I won’t say crazy because I think she knew full well what she was doing and trying to be the guardian of who is or who is not takes it a bit beyond simple admiration to me.
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@mstoogood4yall: Applause, Applause very clever.
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—
Ta-Nehisi Coates
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And the plot thickens. http://newsone.com/3122412/rachel-dolezal-says-outing-linked-to-brothers-child-molestation-case/
And I thought my family was dysfunctional.
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@ mstoogood4yall:
I saw this meme and I must admit I chuckled.
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@ Sharinalr
Wow, policing other people’s ethnicities! I guess she really was a white woman at heart. I had read somewhere that some of her Black students said that she was nicer to the Black male students than she was the Black female students. Also, at Howard her art project (I believe this was for he thesis) was supposed to be told from the perspective of a Black male. Not Black female. A Black male. This woman clearly has some issues. Who knew that being a white woman living in a white dominated culture and society would be so hard.
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@ Leigh and @ Misstoogood4yall
Lol! Those memes are too much! As you can imagine Black twitter has been having a field day with this disaster of a woman. They had some “tests” for “proving” one’s Blackness. I missed some but my excuse is that I’m an oldhead! Some of those questions were written by youngsters. I think they should have different versions, one for old heads and one for baby Negros!
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The plot thickens…….
http://newsone.com/3122412/rachel-dolezal-says-outling-linked-to-brothers-child-molestation-case/
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@ Mochasister:
Wow. Do you remember that photo of the white gold/blue black dress that went viral months ago? Somebody posted this and I thought I would share.
p://i62.tinypic.com/23rsow6.jpg
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Oops, sorry, here it is.
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@leigh 204 & mstoogood4yall: Y’all are giving me life this morning. I kind of feel sorry for her if she is not well mentally. Because she is getting roasted on the internet.
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@ missmaryb i think i heard abagond used it a few months ago, but ‘lily white’ is exactly how my mom – who is very fair – described St. Bonaventure, NY. It is accurate, it’s to the point of no other ethnicities on a real level
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@v8driver: Thanks for responding back. I think Jefe used that term too. It’s pretty accurate when describing a predominately white space.
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XPraetorius, a banned troll, wrote a critique of the post:
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The Daily Beast compared Dolezal to Binjamin Wilkomirski, a fake Jew who wrote a fake Holocaust memoir:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/13/the-psychology-of-an-ethnic-fraud-behind-rachel-dolezal-s-invented-persecution.html
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@Abagond XPrae is a pariah you know this.
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A Bantu proverb: A wooden log can float in a river for millennia but that doesn’t make it a crocodile. The same applies for White Africans and Rachel Dolezal. White people who are born and raised in Africa are descendants of European and Arab invaders. Their language, culture, attire, and diet are fundamentally European or Arab. Rachel Dolezal is replicating light-skinned Black women. Biologically, she is the product of a White man and White woman – something she should never deny.
As a man who loves history and culture, I do respect Ms. Dolezal’s interest and love for organic Black culture, which is very rare among modern-day non-Black people.
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@ mochasister
don’t feel bad I missed a few too, but a lot of them are hilarious asking her questions about songs and black culture. then there’s this meme
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one thing about the tweets is that it shows we do have a culture, even though sometimes we think we don’t or feel like our culture was completely taken. the tweets remind me that we do share some things that others do not and we are able to connect to it and find the humor in it.
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I was on Google+ and tone poster in the circle asked why didn’t Dolezal go darker skinned? I feel she still wanted to hold on to “privilege” there is privilege in “light skin” and she didn’t want to tip her hand by going darker. She probably would ruin her skin with all that tanning and over doing it.
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I have to do this y’all:
Conrad Zdzierak – a White bank robber disguised as a Black man called “The Player”. Charged with multiple counts of aggravated robbery and robbing four banks and a CVS pharmacy.
Rachel Dolezal – a White president of the Spokane, Washington chapter of the NAACP. Her true racial identity was revealed by her parents, Ruthanne and Lawrence Dolezal.
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Cher thinks Rachel Dolezal scandal is about having ‘black cool’
http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/cher_thinks_rachel_dolezal_scandal_about_having_black_cool-2015-06
What is “black cool”?
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..@ v8 driver, yes “hyperwhite” is a term that I too can relate to having previously lived in Utah for a few years in the mid-90’s. People would literally run up to me and offer me the Book of Mormon (no thanks, I’d say), and also ask to touch my skin and curls-no joke! I felt like a proverbial “pink poodle”, if you will. lols
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..Sidenote: I’ve known (and know) plentyyy o’ white folks like Rachel for as long as I can remember-think California, it’s just that she got busted out for her ruse is all..
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They look like the perfect match. Maybe he can support them by robbing I mean those wigs and makeup must be expensive. he lucky he didn’t get killed for cops fearing for their lives. ain’t that a b, even a white person disguised as a black person committing crimes still has less of a chance of getting shot than a black person obeying the law.
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@ mary
I said the same thing, she had to have some privilege, she can’t just get rid of all her privileges at once she’d suffer from withdrawal. Now now mary she was probably going for the i’m 10%native, 75% black, and 15%white, look. She couldn’t pull off being darker or she’d look like that tanning mom https://q1045.s3.amazonaws.com/up-n-adam/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tan-mom.jpg
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lmao
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@ mstoogood4yall:
I found another one. 😀
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@mstoogood4yall & leigh204 : You are making me laugh. I wonder did Dolezal anticipate that she would be made a laughing stalk.
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@mstoogood4yall: I am glad you saw my post about Dolezal tanning darker. I can’t give her a pass, she knows what she is doing. Why she is doing this i don’t know. Is she thirsty for attention? She is just pitiful and she might need some therapy. I know we are beautiful contrary to what the dominant culture tried to tell us. But when i saw her doing that natural hair video i was like WTF? A natural hair video i just can’t with this heifer.
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rofl leigh.
mary
idk why she doin it I wonder what took so long for her to be exposed and why. how did her parents find out about her being in the naacp to out her or who tipped them off. If she wanted to help black folks why not infiltrate the white groups? And I can’t help but think of Trojan pam and how she always says they will never reveal how white supremacy is practiced even the ones that appear to be helping. They will come to black folks and “lead” us but will never go to other white folks and try to explain to them and tell us how they operate. People think racists are the kkk, but they are also policemen, politicians, teachers, etc.
racism getting so out of hand white folks don’t even wanna be white or at least called white. maybe she feels white guilt by being classified as white, and by living as a woman of color she feels she can distance/cleanse herself of the guilt. or maybe she was abused and her siblings weren’t and she thought it would stop if she looked like them. we know how much folks love them some blonde blue eyed girls.
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Bruce Jenner is still a man. Every single cell in his body has a y-chromosome. He is mentally ill, and deserves compassion and treatment for his gender dysphoria, not surgical operations that will only neuter him. Mr. Jenner will never be able to menstruate, lactate, or give birth.
His story is especially tragic because he used to be an amazingly talented athlete.
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it is pathetic some black folks are giving her a pass. Why? oh lord a white person decided to play dress up and live as a person of color for a few years yippee, let’s pop some champagne and give them an award. Some black males are fine with this but I doubt they would feel the same had this been a white man passing as them and speaking as if he truly was born a black man. They’ve been erasing, replacing, and lightening black women, but this is a whole nother level. Anything with a tan and curly hair is considered black nowadays, I thought the one drop rule was ridiculous but this woman probably doesn’t have a drop of black in her and ppl accept her.
It seems being a black woman has been reduced to being a costume, the way u talk or what kind of body u have is all it takes to be a black woman, because apparently all we are is a big as, curves, curly/kinky hair, and sassy. So anybody with any combination of those things can be considered a black woman. People will praise them for it and worship them. everybody has tried to imitate us, u got some folks that will try to imitate the way we talk, u got others that will try to take over our natural hair movement when they were never told their hair was too nappy or unprofessional it is literally just them washing their hair. Then u got the people in our community that cosign it and allow this, allow the erasure and objectification of black women. Our existence as black women is more than our body, hair, skin tone, the way we speak, it is a shared history of experiences, childhood/ parenting, a culture that binds us and makes us feel connected to each other, that nobody else can understand, no matter how much they look like us or think they know about us.
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I don’t get why XPrae would complain about anything in the post. It was not full of racial grievances as they suggest (except for the last quote). It was more or less a statement of what happened. The commentary they made about Abagond’s conclusions were conclusions that Abagond did not make.
Admittedly, Abagond inserts a couple of opinions (eg, calling the Spokane PD “trigger happy”).
Xprae’s comments are completely off. Otherwise, we’d have millions of whites posing as black.
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“Bruce Jenner is still a man. Every single cell in his body has a y-chromosome. He is mentally ill, and deserves compassion and treatment for his gender dysphoria, not surgical operations that will only neuter him. Mr. Jenner will never be able to menstruate, lactate, or give birth.
His story is especially tragic because he used to be an amazingly talented athlete.”
Hmm, there are XX women who can’t menstruate, lactate, or give birth (any more, if ever)!
There are also XY women! Believe it or not.
They are androgen insentive, did not develop male-looking gentalia or bodies, were raised as girls and are women as far as they are concerned. Often they only learned about their genotype after they failed to experience periods after a certain age.
Should they have to start identifying as men because they are XY?
Then there are other intersexual people born with genitals intermediate between male and female. Female and male reproductive systems develop in the womb from common tissue. Sometimes people are born with a penis-like clittoris or a cleft scrotom (like labia). In fact some people may be intersex without knowing. They could have an ovotestis (ie a gonad with both ovary and testicle aspects). That’s not something clearly visible and they might never know.
After looking into it I’ve been less willling to discount people’s experiences outside of the gender binary. That’s not to say that I fully understand transgender. I sometimes wonder whether transitioning is at least partially due to social conventions forcing them to pick their poison. For example, if clothes were unisex Jenner would be wearing the same things in Vanity Fair as would have been worn as Bruce.
Anyway, even if you can change your future you can’t change your past. Jenner fathered children and won medals as Bruce and doesn’t claim that didn’t happen. Dolezal has white biological parents and claimed she had a black father. She has also claimed experiences she did not have.
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Mary Burrell said:
mstoogood4yall said:
and:
^ These are all striking points.
Ms Dolezal may not be crazy but she seems to be delusional on some level. In many ways, this deception has done harm. As Mary implies, she still had access to privilege if she wanted it. Her indentity as a woman of colour was just a veneer – not even skin deep. If things got hard she could just go into the telephone box and put on her white person cape.
And as mstoogood4yall says, Dolezal has been outed and no doubt feels humiliated, but she can move somewhere out of the limelight, change her name and her hair and collect her constant, metaphorical $200 as if nothing ever happened.
The lasting credibility dent may be to the organisation and people she purported to represent.
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@jefe idk if you were around with xpraetorius, but abagond gave him his own post more or less, and well, it’s complicated, but it got ugly towards the end, you can search him here in the search box?
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i think the main thing is xprae was so obnoxious he got banned and that got his nose out of joint so to speak
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Good old xPrae, lol. I bet he will be pleased to hear the that his name still lives on on the abagond blog. I couldn’t believe what a prolific writer he appeared to be but then from memory, I think he was working with a group of some kind so never was sure whether it was just him.
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@v8driver,
I remember xPrae quite well. That is what caused me to stop posting and even reading the posts and instead draft some guest posts, a few of which turned into actual posts. The initial drafts on Manila Galleons and PG county came out of that frustration.
It is also a reason why I was not so keen about starting a blog and dealing with trolls of that nature.
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Hmmm. I am a bit puzzled by this one.
Maybe she has some unmet emotional issues that have been full filled within the black community.That happens a lot! Looks like that may be the case. That is perfectly fine in my book. The ruse kept people from asking questions…for a long time.
Being a person of color in itself is a wonderful thing except she has claimed a shared history that is not hers. Okay. That did happen. WHY? Because being a person of color is fabulous. White supremacy was painstakingly developed to quell the fabulous. The justice system…the financial system…the educational system of white supremacy keeps trying.
And the fabulous just keep escaping.
Other people want the fabulous….let them have some…it’s okay..let them try..it’s a noble quest.
She didn’t hurt the fabulous..the lying only hurt her.
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This woman is mentally ill or a pathological liar. I would posit that such a sort is the last thing the black community ANYWHERE needs to advance itself.
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I’ve thought a bit more about this.
She definitely has issues, but she KNOWS she is lying. It’s obvious from her halting, evasive replies to such questions as “Are you African-American?” And her plea to her brother not to blow her “cover”.
There is no doubt that she grew up with white privilege (albeit possibly tempered a little bit by the fact that she had black brothers).
To deny that she had white privilege (and could still have it any time she wants) is a dishonest and contemptuous way for anyone to behave, let alone someone apparently involved in civil rights activities. Racism is built on and perpetuated with lies. How dare she?
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@ Jacque
“Maybe she has some unmet emotional needs that were met in the Black community. That happens alot.”
What kinds of needs do you mean? Do you think her little masquerade was her living out the white Savior trope that many whites have? Or was this her way to be “oppressed” without being oppressed? I’ve noticed that it seems like more and more white people seem to want to be oppressed.
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BREAKING NEWS: Dolezal resigned.
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I hope she tells us what in the world was going through her head to make her try to pass for Black.
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This story just reminds us of the idiocy of racial classification in America. The one drop rule is a complete arbitrary gauge of blackness. The one drop rule exists merely to perpetuate the illusion of white racial purity as well as preserving white supremacy.
I have friends who are half-black/half-white who have straight brown hair, white skin and look unmistakably white. One of my friends who looks wholly caucasian who has a brown skinned black man as a father identifies himself as white around strangers but sees himself as mixed within his group of friends and family because strangers don’t believe him when he says he’s black or mixed. He grew up in a hyperblack environment east of 1st St. in Northwest DC in the 80’s when DC was much blacker than today. He said his grandfather often felt unsafe as an elderly black man driving around what appeared to be two white children in the hyperblack eastern half of DC in the murder capital era.
In America, anyone who has any visible traces of non-white ancestry and doesn’t have two white parents can never be considered as white. Some people think I’m white even though I’m white/Asian. However, most people can tell I’m Asian, mixed or nonwhite at the very least.
Dolezal story is interesting because why would a white person in the whitest area of the country want to pass as black? Spokane is only 2% black and there are only a few thousand black folks there in a city of 200K+ people. I would not doubt that she did face a fair amount of discrimination living there as a white woman passing as a light skinned black woman. But why would you willingly sign up for that?
I think Dolezal has some serious mental health issues. She wanted to fit in with her adopted black siblings. Not surprisingly, her adopted black siblings frown upon her shenanigans. If she really did suffer abuse at the hands of her parents, she may have wanted to distance herself from them in the most extreme way possible. Marrying a black man, having adopted black siblings and attending the arguably most famous HBCU in America had her longing for complete acceptance from the black community. An acceptance our racist society generally does not completely grant to any one individual. For example, members of any given racial group will never completely accept you as one of them no matter how “down” you are if you do not possess actual membership to that group since birth.
I also believe that she thought that she would have more credibility in academia and political activism if she passed as black. In her vein of pro-black academia and political activism, she would have had less credibility as a white woman much like a white rapper is seen as having much less street credibility and authenticity than a black rapper by most serious Hip Hop fans.
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Well said, SanFran. Although I think, from what I have seen, that she may have a personality disorder rather than (or as well as) a mental illness. She appears to be manipulative, dishonest, and egotistic, and possibly a fantasist. I am, though, more than aware, that I am only in possession of a few facts.
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At the end of the day, she IS playing the “white savior”.
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Reality is stranger than fiction
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Am I the only one who doesn’t have much interest in this story? I would just shrug my shoulders and move on.
I do think she needs to come clean, but I am not particularly bothered by it. Maybe it might make an interesting book or film some years down the road.
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@ jefe
I think the reason why so many people are interested in this story is because of this country’s sad and twisted racial past. I don’t have to tell you about it because from reading some of your posts you have also experienced it (you are Asian and European American, no? I apologize if I have your ethnicity wrong.). To be quite frank it’s just strange. At least to me it is. The bizarre stories about hunting food with a bow an arrow, being beaten with the same type of rod the slaves were beaten with and living in a tepee. Then on top of this supposedly her parents “outed” her to discredit her. Why? She is supporting the victim who was allegedly molested by Rachel’s older brother. The lies and the family dysfunction are just part of the fascination. The real question on everyone’s mind is why would a member of the top caste in the US racial hierarchy literally throw away her whiteness in order to embrace Blackness? It makes no sense; most whites eschew any hint of remote African ancestry. Oh, they may claim a Cherokee ggg grandmother (who was always a princess.) but never any Black ancestry. White people have been very diligent and crafty in establishing their racial hierarchy. For centuries they have brainwashed/told themselves and everyone else that whiteness was the creme de creme of all humanity. Anything else was lacking. For a person of the top rung of society to leave her castle of white privilege so to speak and attempt (I say attempt because there’s no way that Dolezal is a Black woman. I don’t care about the Oompa Loompa tan or her ridiculous wigs and braids.) to join with a group of people that have been historically marginalized is puzzling. Recent events in the US reveal how little Black people are thought of or respected. So when the story about Dolezal broke you can imagine why it caught everyone’s attention. Was she spying for the FBI/CIA ? Was this just an elaborate art piece that she eventually planned to exhibit in a museum? Did she do it to get a book deal? Or was this a white girl’s ultimate eff you to white daddy and white society (besides the marrying a Black dude that is.)?
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Abagond,
What do you think about Ms. Dolezal and her adventures in Blackness? Why do you think she did this?
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On a lighter note I want to know what happened to those Negros in Spokane that they didn’t realize this was not a Black woman?! What, nobody in that NAACP office had working Blackdar?!
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One blog referred to this fiasco as a “Post Racial Imitation of Life.” That is hilarious to me. That pretty much sums up this craziness.
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Mochasister @ On a lighter note I want to know what happened to those Negros in Spokane that they didn’t realize this was not a Black woman?! What, nobody in that NAACP office had working Blackdar?!
Linda says,
As long as black Americans accept people that look like this:
as “black”
then no one is going to raise an eyebrow or question an obvious mixed-race person with a slight tan and wavy/curly hair
(that picture is Tina Knowles, her siblings, and other family members)
since the bar for being “black” is so low, (that Rachel was able to pass successfully)
I think a movement should be started to incorporate Hispanics/Latinos as “black”,
since many of them DO actually carry African DNA and they won’t have to lie
such as Eva Longoria (3% black African) and Michelle Rodriguez (21% black African)
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by the way, I’m being just kidding about “incorporating Hispanics/Latinos” as black
just trying to show how bipolar the issue of race and identity is in America
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..I bet cha’ dollars to donuts that it’s really not as complicated as some would think, Lots o’ folks want to look, and be Black-I have lived in the South, the East and West Coast and all points in between from traveling with family so much..so, for me people like Rachel are now new..Sidenote: I have also seen plenty that want to be Asian, Latino/Latina (mestizo), too..so it’s not shocking when you have moved around as much as I have..
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P.S. ..Now, if she looked like Pam Anderson (back in her early heyday) or something like that, it would perhaps be a bit more shocking to me but what did have to lose? Not dissing her looks, but the truth is she was very plain and average looking, so..
PPS. LmaOoo at those memes, ladies! @misstoogood, your posts stay on fleek!
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@ Mz. Nikita
Lol that crossed my mind when I first saw her. She could have stayed white and blended in with the furniture or she could be a light skinned “black” woman and have color struck black people actually pay attention to her enough for her to climb the ranks.
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When I ws reading about her resignation this morning I also read an article saying that she had sued Howard University for discimination (before she was “black”) and lost.
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A strange age we live in indeed. You can buy blackness, but not be be black. You can buy femininity, but not be a woman. But buy blackness – for what?
A shame really. When other people see blackness, they do not see a a world culture linked to a historic past and a triumphant , resilient culture,but source with which to fill their bottomless reservoir of self-pity. I guess that’s what they think we think of ourselves. Reminds me of Mailer’s “White Negro.”
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satanforce! we heard weed is legal in jamaica now
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This is sick.
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@ Mochasisfer
The best sense I can make of Dolazel based on what I know now:
Most people do not seem to know this, but one of the stages of growing up White American (one that is rarely achieved) is wanting to become part of a community of colour. People who reach this stage have become an outcast among Whites because of their anti-racism – and yet they still have to overcome their feelings of White guilt. They try to overcome these feelings by becoming part of a non-White world. Her twist is trying to pass as another race. In any case, it does not work in the long run because non-Whites do not understand where they are coming from. In the end they find fellow White anti-racists.
More:
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Thanks for the link to the posting on the stages of whiteness.
I think that is why most blacks and many whites do not understand what is with Ms. Dolezal.
Most whites are stuck in stage 1. Some go to stage 2. Few progress further.
I think most people nowadays, whether white, black, or anyone else, rarely come face to face with a white person in stage 4 (where Ms. Dolazel found herself). Pre-1967 we would normally find it where whites had married non-whites, and were forced to leave their white families and live in the non-white community. Also included were some Jews and others who joined the NAACP or civil rights cause and found themselves at the other end of white racism.
Nowadays, it is just a passing stage that people do not stay for long. They either cannot stand stage 4 (and go back to stage 3) or they overcome it and proceed to stage 5. What is unusual in Ms. Dolezal’s case was that she stayed in stage 4 for so long. In order to stay locked in stage 4, she had to make up an elaborate ruse to keep it going as long as she did.
The question now is – will she find the tools and psychological state of mind to progress to stage 5?
That is why I shrug my shoulders about this and move on — will she go to the next stage or retreat backwards.
My mother approached stage 4, but eventually retreated back to stage 3. It is difficult to stay in stage 4 for long. I think THAT is what is unique about the MS. Dolezal case (in addition to her high profile position). But my mother kept her married name after she divorced her husband, even though I changed my surname after that. She stayed locked in stage 3 (and even that is unusual).
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It reminds me of the ‘Born in the wrong body’-episode of the Dutch 1995 mockumentary-series 30 Minuten with Arjan Ederveen:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3m8ucf7yNI)
(Dutch farmer feels he is actually a negro from Zaïre)
Twenty years later, fiction becomes reality.
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I really don’t know how she could continue to hide her true ethnicity despite filing a lawsuit @ Howard University while using the same name. Doesn’t somebody in the NAACP have access to the internet and can do background checks? It’s because the NAACP is full of people 60+ that aren’t apart of the cyber generation.
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just when I thought it couldn’t get any better black twitter makes #Racheldolezalmemoiretitles. I am dying
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But why can’t Rachel Dolezal become Transracial?
I mean, surely in 2015 we must accept such a possibility?
I honestly question how you have have Transsexualism without also embracing Transracialism. The logic for both is intertwined. You can have both or neither.
Arguments?
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@King:
That’s an interesting point. I’m not sure how to argue for or against it…
In this case I’m not sure that is the issue though. Going purely by what has been published in the media about RD’s history and behaviour, and by things she is alleged to have said, I’m not convinced that she ever experienced a genuine, fundamental feeling that she wasn’t white or that she was African American. The impression I have is that it was simply a deceit thing that allowed her to build a persona as a crusading, high-profile person. An ego trip with a fall-back safety net of whiteness available at all times.
Most trans people seem to genuinely identify as other than their bureaucratically recorded birth gender. I have no problem with that and I wish them well in whatever steps they take to adjust the situation.
Perhaps there are “transracial” people with equivalent genuine feelings. I have no idea. RD, however, just seems like a plain fraud.
Also, to accept your assertion that we must accept both or neither means accepting that the two are equivalent for the purposes of this discussion.
Race is considered by many to be a social construct. Is the same thing postulated about gender? And does it make a difference?
Figuring this one out may be beyond me.
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@mstoogood4yall
ROFL!!!! Thank you. That made my day.
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The “5 stages” theory is absolutely fascinating.
I have to agree with Buddhuu, though, that, in Dolezal’s case, it does seem to be largely a question of “deceit” and “ego-trip”, rather than a genuine belief that she is not white.
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@ Buddhuu
Well, you certainly must acknowledge that it does bring up an issue that most people have never considered (I know hadn’t). So it deserves some thinking through.
She says in an interview that she identified as Black even as a child who used to crayon herself with brown skin. It is possible that she somehow related to her Black adopted siblings from an early age. It also doesn’t seem likely that she married Black husband and had Black kids so that she could have an administrative job in the NAACP. If she wanted money, I’m sure there were other Administrative jobs she could do as a white person.
Besides, we can never really know motive. I mean, I could surmise that Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is having his transformation because he’ll make a lot of money with is reality show, especially after all the publicity! I’m not saying that I actually believe that, but if I’m just stringing motives together you can surely find alternate motivations if you wish to.
So my question is, what if RD is genuinely “Transracial?” What if she “feels Black?” If she feels like a Black woman trapped in a White woman’s bod, than by trans logic shouldn’t she then be treated by society as an authentic Black woman. or at the least as a “Transracial” woman?
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I think Rachel Dolezal is an agent.
Stop saying that she’s mentally ill. She’s not. She’s got all type of degrees. She was teaching. She’s not mentally ill. The NAACP have always had almost white looking black people.
Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Francis_White
He was a chairman of the NAACP another in the 20s and 30s. He used to whiteness to warn black folks of hanging and lynchings that were planned.
Now he probably also used that in reverse to tell his KKK buddies “Hey, these black people, have this going on, you better be careful”
What’s to say this Dolezal women would not do the same ?
To me it’s the Tarzan mentality. Look we can be black BETTER THAN YOU. We can master what you think your master of. The biggest RnB singer in the world ? Justin Timberlake. The biggest hip-hop star in the world ? Eminem.
This Dolezal may well have done plenty of good stuff, but that’s the game, they do plenty of good stuff to hide the bad stuff.
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She did an interview this morning with Matt Lauer on the “Today” show:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QaNZEVD5B0)
Melissa Harris Perry has also interviewed her. That interview will be shown tonight in full on MSNBC on the Chris Hayes show, though parts of it are already on YouTube:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyuiAZSzcEo)
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@TheHipHopRecords
“The NAACP have always had almost white looking black people.”
That’s not only correct, but NAACP has always had white people working for it ever since its white founders, Mary White Ovington, Oswald Garrison Villard, William English Walling and Dr. Henry Moscowitz, who were descendants of abolitionists. I don’t think Dolezal is any different. She sees herself as loving and trying to help blacks, and its just the perpetuation of the white saviour mentality.
But all in all, it’s funny as hell, and goes to show how silly race is in America. That someone who is “white” can fool the masses into thinking she’s “black” just shows how fictitious and cultural this race thing really is.
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“But all in all, it’s funny as hell, and goes to show how silly race is in America. That someone who is “white” can fool the masses into thinking she’s “black” just shows how fictitious and cultural this race thing really is.”
A white person could get away with that because there are different criteria for being considered black versus being considered white. Either appearance or ancestry can qualify you as black while you don’t stand a chance in hell of being accepted as white if you don’t look very white.
But I don’t think it’s surprising that someone who basically changed her appearance and lied about her family could fool people. Those “White Chicks” actors were black men…lol
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Apparently she plagiarized some art too. Fascinating stuff.
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2015/06/rachel-dolezal-plagerized-her-artwork/
Dunno if the link will actually work
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@Gen: So she is just a liar and a fraud then is what is adds up to.
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Want to be black without the burden. SMH.
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@ King:
I get the question – it’s basically the same one you asked earlier – I just can’t answer it.
I posted it in a discussion thread on my eldest daughter’s Facebook. Bear in mind that we are in the UK and racism is a little less overt here and white Brits rarely see sources of info such as this blog. We don’t even get much coverage of the many killings of unarmed POC by US cops – our (establishment aligned) media are even more racist than our general population.
Anyway, the immediate response from several people (all white) was, in essence, “You can’t change your race. you can’t transition racially as you could with gender.” There seemed to be a degree of hostility even to the question.
My daughter is anti-racist and pro LGBT equality. Her friends (real and FB) tend to hold similar views. They mostly dislike and mistrust the RD that they perceive from the media reports. They think she’s deceived and screwed over the community she infiltrated. They are not prepared to give her the same tolerance that trans people get.
I make no judgement (as I’ve said, I cannot answer the question you pose), I’m just reporting some reactions to that question.
And it IS a difficult question to answer – especially from my position of white, male, hetero, cis comfort. To answer casually would be to judge things of which I have no empirical experience – just, hopefully, some degree of empathy.
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Well, thanks at least for thinking about it, Buddhuu. I was just interested in how people saw the idea. I would have guessed that since gender is biologically real (X / XY) and race is not biologically real, that the reverse would be true! But then again, people have had a longer exposure to Transgender advocacy, and Transracialism, as a concept, is quite new. We shall see how it develops.
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@ King:
And thanks for asking the question. I’m not done with this one yet, but I’ve learned that I have to be careful when asking around. It seems (but hasn’t been said outright) that people consider even asking the question to be insulting or hostile to trans people. In my case that could not be further from the intent – I absolutely support the right of trans people to transition and to be accepted for who they identify as.
As you say, transracialism (if it is a thing) is new – or, at least, awareness of it is new. That may well be why it is not so readily accepted. There are probably other reasons too. There may be political considerations that have so far eluded me. As I’ve said, I can’t answer yet. Still got some thinking, talking and listening to do on this one.
Late here so I’ll wish everyone a good night.
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To Buddhu:
“They think she’s deceived and screwed over the community she infiltrated. They are not prepared to give her the same tolerance that trans people get.”
Rachel Dolezal’s behavior towards black Americans was not benign before her racial transition.. she sued Howard University, the most prestigious historically black university, which had given her a scholarship for gender and racial discrimination. (She lost the suite and had to pay court costs to Howard University..)
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/bizarre/rachel-dolezal-discrimination-lawsuit-786451
After her divorce from her (black) husband she apparently tried to poison her ex-husband’s relationship with their son:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/rachel-dolezal-accused-lying-son-article-1.2257590
“Dolezal’s marriage ended with her ex-husband accusing her of lying and poisoning his relationship with their son Franklin, according to divorce documents obtained by the Daily News.
In a 2005 note to Dolezal, estranged spouse Kevin Moore said she made some strange comments to the three-year-old boy.
“He mentioned that you stated something … about ‘handcuffs’ and something about ‘me never seeing him again,’” Moore wrote. “He also stated that you said I have ‘monsters’ in my house.”
The Montana-born Dolezal, 37, filed for divorce from her African-American husband in 2004.
“I hate to think you may be just sitting at home thinking of bad and erroneous things to say about me to Franklin,” Moore wrote to his ex-wife.”
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@ Buddhu & King: This article touches upon the transgender/racial question.
“http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/15/rachel_dolezal_caitlyn_jenner_how_transgender_is_different_from_transracial.html”
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/15/rachel_dolezal_caitlyn_jenner_how_transgender
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/06/15/rachel_dolezal_caitlyn_jenner_how_transgender_is_different_from_transracial.html
@ Buddhuu and King. This article touches upon the transgender/racial question.
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I will not accept shaming, silencing, off-limits conversation, character assassination, ascribing false motives, sabotage of inquiry, or any other unworthy ‘tactic’ from Liberals/Progressives any more than I would accept them from Conservatives. When someone tries to hide behind the banner of being offended by honest questions, it is because they they are afraid that the questions will ultimately disprove their beliefs. Otherwise, why be afraid of questions?
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Thanks Michael Jon Barker, I’ll give it a read.
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I’ve never joined the “race isn’t real” camp. I understand the racism is so unwelcome that it is attacked from every angle but I haven’t been convinced.
Are dog breeds real? How do you recognize a Poodle vs a German Shepherd. Are the differences real? If we choose not to classify them by breed do the differences disappear? Wouldn’t you still need fluffy white dog + fluffy white dog to reliably get offstring of that type?
IMO race is as biologically real as having heritable dark skin or kinky hair is biologically real. True, you could say that people with those features shouldn’t be called a race but it doesn’t make their particular combination of attributes any less real.
Only people with the luxury of not caring about their racial features most of the time can say that race isn’t real. The denial of the concept of race and color blind racism seem to go hand-in-hand from where I’m sitting.
“Race doesn’t exist.”
“I don’t see color.”
Yet, even though I don’t walk around with a race tag people seem to figure out this fictional aspect of myself quite easily. /sarc
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I will try to say this without offending ppl but if I do let me know. The issue I have with the whole Rachel situation vs transgender, is that she chose to speak on issues that real black women deal with like racism and natural hair. It would be like a transgender woman leading a class and telling women how a period is and how childbirth is, when they don’t know how either feels, all they can do is listen to other’s experiences and repeat it. All I’m saying is don’t lie and know when to be supportive, don’t make stuff up to seem more credible than u are. If u think u are transracial, don’t go around speaking on issues u have not dealt with personally or that u just came into, allow people that have been dealing with it longer than u to speak. All u are doing is making it harder for people that do face those issues to be heard and taken seriously.
People imitate or learn about others through the media so that is another issue, if they are just imitating stereotypes that can be disastrous.
Don’t be like that annoying person that tries to be in every conversation and buts in but doesn’t know the context. If transracial was to become a thing white folks that identify as another race would still have some privilege, people would praise them for trying something different the same way they praise white folks for trying black trends and hairstyles. All while disrespecting and name calling black folks that created and do said trends.
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mstoogood4yall @ is that she chose to speak on issues that real black women deal with like racism and natural hair. It would be like a transgender woman leading a class and telling women how a period is and how childbirth is, when they don’t know how either feels, all they can do is listen to other’s experiences and repeat it.
Linda says,
Thank you, thank you, and thank you for saying this!!!
Can’t no man who feels like a woman, EVER know what it’s like to be a woman– I don’t care how much hormones or surgeries they have
Transgender Men, cannot, will not, and have never experienced the PAIN of having menstrual periods (pre and post crampings), yeast infections, carrying and delivering a baby (labor pains are indescribable and no joke)
and the postpartum systems/depression that come after (which many women go through and don’t speak about), the bonding and nipple pain while breastfeeding your baby and the pulling/contracting feeling in your womb as your body tries to go back to normal.
there are so many physical and biological changes that women go through in a lifetime that our mothers don’t tell us about or discuss…such as growing facial hair in your 40s because your hormones are out of wack
I just Can’t with all this Trans-crap — being a woman is not just about having tata’s and a vajay-jay with long hair and nice dresses.
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Transgender women face more harm than she ever will especially trans women of color. Rachel is giving interviews and who knows what else she will get. If she was honest from the get go she still would’ve been rewarded from both sides. I’m sorry i don’t think I’ve heard of a transracial person being killed for coming out as transracial, but I’ve heard of transgender women and men being killed for coming out.
Whether she wants it or not she is a white woman in America and even though she has done this, the law is still on her side and the interviews and paychecks will pour in. If she acts a fool they will blame black folks and black culture while ignoring that she was raised white. The last thing we need is white folks transitioning to blackness and starting sh3z like the white man that dressed as a black man to rob banks.
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“being a woman is not just about having tata’s and a vajay-jay with long hair and nice dresses.”
Yes, but that is how ppl think, the media and society shape how we view women and how women view ourselves. So to someone that is transitioning to womanhood they may think that is what it’s all about, because they still grew up being males and viewing women the way society tells them to. It is ingrained from childhood that everything weak, vulnerable is female and everything strong and protective is male.
jon stewart summed it up
“Caitlyn, when you were a man, we could talk about your athleticism, your business acumen, but now you’re a woman, and your looks are really the only thing we care about,” said Stewart on Tuesday’s episode of “The Daily Show,” mocking the media’s focus on Jenner’s appearance and calling out coverage that became immediately disparaging to other women.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/03/jon-stewart-caitlyn-jenner_n_7501734.html
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..Absolutely correct, and for the record the whole “transracial” thing is complete and utter Bullshi#!!! Seems like every, single, solitary time “Blackness” is brought up, people can’t wait to attach another “cause” to it-be it LGBT issues, “racial” discrimination against other POC, etc. Black folks ethnicity, bloodlines, history and so forth Are Not the same equivalent to one’s deciding upon a certain gender, look, sexual orientation. etc. It’s not the same thing, and never ever will be, no matter how much some people might wish to make it so..
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“mstoogood4yall@ Yes, but that is how ppl think, the media and society shape how we view women and how women view ourselves. So to someone that is transitioning to womanhood they may think that is what it’s all about”
Linda says,
and that is why when I hear people talking about Transgender, all I can do is shake my head and roll my eyes
black women have been Reduced into Caricatures and theatrical characters
for Halloween, we can dress up our sons in dusty looking brown/blond cork-screw wigs, with a head wrap, put tan/white foundation on their faces and call them Rachel Doležal
and then call Essence and Time to see if they can host a talent show and put the winner on the cover to represent black women (like how they had Laverne Cox)
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@ Origin
Race is not real in the sense that there are not real zoologically significant separations between the visible “races.” That is not true of dog breeds, for example. There are many dog breeds that cannot cross breed naturally.
that is untrue of all humans. Also you don’t get wide separations in size between certain breeds like between a Great Dane and a Chihuahua.
Genetically speaking, the differences between humans is more like the difference between a Black Labrador and a Golden Labrador (Same breed, different coloration) rather than the differences between a German Shepherd and a French Poodle.
That is what I mean when I say that race is not real. There in ONE “breed” of humans with very minor variation in hair, skin, eyelid folds, etc.
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@King
Regardless of the relative magnitude of the differences they are real and they are heritable. Regardless, most dog breeds are not as different as a Chihuahua and a Great Dane. Breeds are just created by selectively “breeding” an ancestral group for certain traits and eventually you have a group that reliably produces those traits. So AFAIAC, it is a well understood biological process and is very real. It doesn’t create new species so reproductive compatibility across breeds generally remains (you get so-called mongrels that can give you all sorts of varied pups again).
I have no problem calling a group of people that reliably express certain distinctive traits across generations a race. I don’t see that as unreal at all. That’s why reproduction has always been at the center of the racial classifications and taboos established by whites. One could argue that race is *artificial* in the sense that people deliberately pick mates in order to be sure to produce children with certain desired features. However, the constructed race is real AFAIAC.
Anyway, back to Rachel Dolezal. Abagond’s “stages of whiteness” might come pretty close to explaining her. I saw snippets of an interview during which she said things like “white does not describe who I am”, and “I’m definitely not white”. She also mentioned feelings of isolation when asked to compare herself to Caitlyn Jenner.
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@ Michael Jon Barker:
Thanks for that. I’ll also check it out.
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@ Uncle Milton:
Yes, I read about that university lawsuit. Doh.
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@Mary Burrell
“Want to be black without the burden. SMH.”
White privilege!
lol, kind of ironic.
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Ugh, this woman just needs to stop with all the lies and evasive answers. I rolled my eyes when she questioned if her white parents were actually her biological parents because there were “no witnesses” and a birth certificate was issued six weeks after she was born. Whaaat? I’m done with this woman.
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@ Origin
Yes, the “races” are phenotypically distinct, to a degree. We clearly do have small characteristics that are different, Unlike dogs, we don’t grow longer ears or dramatically shorter limbs. And there are few human features that you can track to just one “race,” (if any.) And within each “race” there is a vast amount of genetic variation. Certainly more than would be found in dog breeds, or, for instance, the avian world. It would be more accurate (genetically) to say that there are Black races in Africa, and White and Asian races rather than a single color-coded race.
But I think the other part of it is that when you look at the people who we think of as “White,” the group ranges from tall people with very fair skin, blonde hair and blue eyes, to people with much darker skin, dark hair, and stockier build. The fact that they are considered the same “race” is an arbitrary distinction. and if we are simply going by who looks alike, then there are people groups separated by vast oceans who look physical similar. Many people from the Middle East can blend unrecognizably into the Hispanic population, for example. Only culture and language make them appreciably different.
I think the main point is that human “races” are not qualitatively different. There may be different emphasis in different cultures ad there may be certain people within a larger group with different physical traits, but you never get certain abilities across an entire “race” as we know them. There are not deep qualitative differences differences, only adaptive variation that we use to ascribe race.
Yes, I tend to agree. I had a look back at that post as well. Very interesting. Rachel Dolezal herself seems rather faced in her perceptions, bit she does raise some interesting ideas about race.
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Wow. It is hard for me to believe that this Dolezal thing is less than a week old. It seems longer than that. On the other hand, it is hard to believe “My Love is Like … Wo” is already more than a decade old.
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I just Can’t with all this Trans-crap — being a woman is not just about having tata’s and a vajay-jay with long hair and nice dresses.
Could have had me fooled! I wonder when this broad will start getting buttocks and lip implants? Anyone?
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Does anyone think it is possible she paid her parents to leak the story?
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@ Abagond
Looking at this Rachel Dolezal controversy, I believe there’s a very important possibility for systemic racial categorizing dismantling here that people are somehow overlooking.
If racial categorizing is the method for identifying and mistreating certain non-white people, particularly BLACK people …. then won’t the racial classification system be potentially weakened or watered down when or if an inordinate amount of white people decide to self-identify as Black people?
What if 1/3 or 1/10 of all those presently classified as WHITE (and look white) decided, for whatever reasonable reason, to self-identify as BLACK people? How might a change of this type or magnitude affect whiteness and white supremacy as a whole?
Could an ever increasing movement of white people self identifying as Black people potentially render white supremacy a death blow – if the system could no longer always rely on the standard rules (for example, visual cues) that determine or suggest who is, or isn’t white or Caucasian?
Should we not embrace those who are: confusing the idea of what whiteness means, what whiteness looks like or is supposed to be, or, willing to stop being and acting ‘white’ for the sake of eventually dismantling or deconstructing whiteness and white supremacy?
Why should Black people accept and adhere to any systemic rule that maintains the status-quo of racial classification which enables white-supremacy?
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@RedSea
“Why should Black people accept and adhere to any systemic rule that maintains the status-quo of racial classification which enables white-supremacy?”—A very good question.
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@ sharinalr
What makes you ask that, Sharina?
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@Buddhuu
Looking at most of her actions they seem to center around her needing attention and I have been wondering what real reason her parents have to out her. If it was simply a matter of discrediting her from testifying against her brother then all that could have just been brought up in court, but they went full on public. Once public she has been getting all type of attention via media, being interviewed, and having the world talk about her. This could lead to book deals and movie deals which equals more money in her pocket. I see this as benefiting her more than hurting her. The parents had to know that. Which is why I believe she either paid them or they struck a deal.
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Re: red sea’s statement
the system has never been able to rely on those “standard” rules, even during Jim Crow and the one drop rule era.
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bah all kubler ross deathing 5 step
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@King
[BTW, I’m not picking on you. Your comment just reminded me to express my opinion on it]
My issue is the claim that it is not real. It is. Arguing that it artificial, is not important, races are not that different, or shouldn’t be a basis for discrimination is a different matter. In this case, the primary feature that is maintained through geographical isolation or through mate selection and reproductive taboos is pale skin. The result is a “white race”.
That is the reason for the one-drop-rule in which someone who doesn’t “look” black could be considered black if they have recent black ancestors. It is to prevent the re-introduction of pigmentation (surprise black baby). I read that Carol Channing was told about her black relatives for that reason.
It is clear that in order for the white race to continue they must organize themselves into an exclusive reproductive group. And that would generate a particular cultural outlook and relationship to other people outside their group. The themes of white racism have always included reproduction and the themes of lynchings have often included claims of rape and subsequent castrations of the vicitm. The fact is that humans do not have a breeder to expose them to certain mates when they are in heat. So culture is the means to enforce restrictions on mate selection if that is desired.
So given all the consequences of its existence and desire for perpetuation it would be difficult for me to agree that race is not real in the generally understood sense of the word. However, one could argue that it is artificial in the sense that without isolation of groups due to geography or culture it wouldn’t exist. What would people look like? People would be varied but most would not be pale in the skin, hair, or eyes.
I guess I’ll end here because that’s just my view. We have more tangible proof of race than we have proof of many of the gods people worship. So I say it’s real. It is a nexus between an underlying biological truth of genetic inheritance and a social construction and/or environmental configuration to perpetuate the expression of certain traits.
Anyway, while I was reading the news I came upon this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elwood-d-watson/rachel-dolezal-and-white-privilege_b_7600366.html
”
That being said, what has made Dolezal’s story atypical is the fact that, rather than attempt to acknowledge that she was part of a race that has historically enjoyed numerous benefits and privileges, she elected to embrace and identify herself with a group of people who have routinely been politically, economically, educationally and psychologically marginalized by the larger society. This is what has made so many people, myself included, scratch their heads.
…
After her media tour, there will likely be multiple book deals, movie adaptations, public speaking opportunities in her future that have long eluded working, impressive, dynamic Black women with inspiring stories. This is a person who, even as she masqueraded as Black, was able to perversely capitalize off her deceptive behavior and could have decided to revert to her authentic and biological White pedigree anytime had she chosen to do so. Rachel Dolezal’s entire life story is the classic definition of White privilege.
“
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Oh I am so over people going ,”why would she want to be black?” but she was not any black quiet churchmouse non descript black person. She was a black person in a position of leadership with artwork and wares to sell as a black person. She had a niche, a space a special place to be special.Don’t people get it? I think, as an artist, I get it. I play black men, victims, beat up people all the time. And there is a certain gratification in doing so-in portraying someone with challenges and problems. A certain kind of heroism, or heroic high you can only get from playacting, from knowing it’s not real. Being actually black and female on the other hand, is a constant, irreversible, improvisational feat. It is not a high to fight every day for your humanity when you know it’s real, irreversible and a constant on your toes improvisational balancing act. So of course, she enjoyed it. She’s an actress. Fundamentally. Actresses always enjoy drama.
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Also
She enjoyed being a beautiful black woman. Let me tell you. Black women are quietly desired by men of all races.
Why wouldn’t she want to be a beautiful black woman with big hair and braids and locs? Because, despite some harrowing aspects of being black, she felt prettier that way. I would not want to be white on aesthetic reasons. Not because there are not pretty white women but I love, love love my dark beautiful brown skin, no matter how its portrayed in the rap videos. Women love to feel pretty and unique. Even if there are social disadvantages to it.
And she was also still, as some have pointed out, on the top of the beauty hierarchy. Notice she did not put on brown contact lenses or get a nose broadening rhinoplasty. She looked biracial, which is always a coveted prize in certain circles of black men.
I am in a white place and I know some white women have told me that I “stand out” for being just a regular old black woman. So, who would not want to embrace that? I mean, she probably felt pretty and then she was on the top of the beauty scale. And she was not very skinny. I know, from being in a white world that white women really feel unnoticeable when they are not very thin. In black world, having thick thighs is an advantage. I have always wanted to be a little goth. Too late for it now, but I think it’s aesthetically cool. I want to dye my hair pink and wear owl lish eyeliner and ripped stockings. Because I find it aesthetically appealing even if I could not get a job. I am too grown to do that right now. It would annoy me after two days to have all that guck on my eyes. However when I was young? Fuggedahboutit. But I understand that desire to look beautiful in a completely unique way. WOmen are not like men. We dress and look to please some other aspects of life besides, “can we get jobs.” And obviously jobs were not lacking for her as a black woman. With all the sense of entitlement and ambition and confidence white women are allowed to have as they go traipsing through the black experience.
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@Angela, THIS!!!!!
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I’ve always thought that the concept of trans-racial identity was bona fide only if you were the actual child of trans-racial parents — in such an instance when it’s theoretically plausible to identify equally with both lineages and cultures. For instance, President Obama.
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@Roland
Did you mean child of an interracial relationship?
Obama’s parents were not transracial.
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@jefe, Yes! Thank you! I meant to say “interracial”.
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Coming from a racially diverse place (Oakland, CA), I’ve known several interracial families. In most cases, the children self-identified as black, which I’m wondering may be a holdover from the racist one-drop rule? What’s sad is that they felt compelled to choose one or the other, even though they were equally close to both their black and white families. This I blame on our white-supremacist culture.
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This is basically one of those specific situations where it actually is to your advantage to be black.
Getting a job as a teacher or being part of the NAACP……being mixed/black helps to make the cut.
Especially for teaching, got quotas to fill, like being a man helps to get a job as a teacher as well because of that.
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@V-4, I think my non-white friends who are teachers would be horrified to think they got (and keep) their jobs for their ethnicity rather than their academic and professional achievement! And I only mention the teachers because your comment targets teachers specifically! I think all of my friends earn their positions!
The objective of Affirmative Action isn’t to give unmerited favor to women, or people of color. The objective is to prevent unmerited favor being given to white men simply because they are white men, which still happens all too frequently. It’s also worth noting that women of color have not benefited from Affirmative Action nearly as well as their white women counterparts.
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This lady is a wackadoo and a sociopath. She is delusional and, looking at the parents and her childhood pictures, as white as snow. Tanning your skin and kinking up your hair does not a black person make you! It doesn’t even make you half black. It makes you a cultural appropriating minstrel and a liar. She’s not some tragic “transracial” nobody grows up feeling as if they were born in into a culture they have never been a part of. That is not a thing, never has been. If it was, wiggers all over America would be tanning, getting nose jobs and kinking up their hair. Get real. I am highly insulted by what this woman has done. This woman that could at any time revert back to her place of privilege. She does not get a pass from me, no pun intended, on this horrific deception. The b*** needs help.
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The later interviews solidified my opinion on her and it’s not good.
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If she wants to REALLY be Black, then she should give Wells Fargo or some other racist bank $135,000 and have $11,000 of her salary go to White co-workers. And then, on top of that, be the first fired – and last hired. A spray tan and a “natural” hairdo is SO superficial.
More suggestions here:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zshtACJ36ss)
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In my opinion, she is a con. The clincher for me is that she sued Howard University for racial discrimination AS A WHITE WOMAN. Where were her brown crayons then?
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Yes, this does look suspect.
But, was that before she did her transracial trope? I suppose Bruce Jenner could have sued an institution for sexual discrimination as a man before he became a woman, and then later sue another institution for discrimination as a woman.
If she had gone further and performed irreversible surgery to make her pass more easily as black, would that have been different? Or is that still just a con?
Looking forward to the day when a white man does an irreversible procedure to make him into a black woman.
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RedSea,
“If racial categorizing is the method for identifying and mistreating certain non-white people, particularly BLACK people …. then won’t the racial classification system be potentially weakened or watered down when or if an inordinate amount of white people decide to self-identify as Black people?”
Racial categorization isn’t based on self identification. Society has guidelines for racial identification. So I’m going to say no it wouldn’t. If anything it would just privilege white people more. It would just be cultural appropriation. See Iggy Azalea, elvis, Macklemore
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Sorry for taking my time. In order to lose weight, I went on a Popeyes chicken diet, and became a bit ill. It worked. I’ve only stopped shitting myself yesterday. Weed is legal, but situation is no different than before. Get caught with it, you get a 500 JMD fine. It’s only legal for Rastas in private and (legal) businessmen.
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I lost hundreds of pounds on the Kentucky Fried upchuck diet! With that being said, I prefer Popeyes!
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This is serious. I spent last week Wednesday and Thursday on toilet on the hour, every hour. But I did lose the weight.
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@Kiwi,
C’mon.
Again you completely changed the wording and meaning of what someone said (for some reason, who knows – for fun, I guess). If you are confused about something, bring it up and ask for clarification. That will elicit more meaningful discussion.
Having an interest in black culture (say, since adolescence) does not mean that someone has already begun life as a transracial (eg, post-university). Why do you need to bring up your “moving the goalposts” refrain when nothing of the sort was done?
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OK, sorry, interest in being black v. living life as a transracial.
Sorry for the typo.
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ok buddy
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oops that was a reply to satanforce, sorry bout that
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If this long lady wants to join the black race and endure the suffering that most black go through daily there should not be a problem. There should be more caucations wanting to do the same thing , I admire her and would love to have a conversation with her. In closing a big HOO RA for her.
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
What’s your take on an essay by E. Faye Williams of National Congress of Black Women regarding the Rachel Dolezal controversy?
Here’s the essay by Dr. E. Faye Williams:
Eye of the Beholder
By Dr. E. Faye Williams, Esq.
williams2
(TriceEdneyWire.com) – Many have given their opinions. Now it’s my turn to weigh in on the subject of race and the right of self-identification. My central question is, “With events occurring in the world that require serious attention, why is there so much interest in a white woman, Rachel Dolezal, wanting to live and identify as a Black woman?”
Are whites so alarmed in disbelief that a White woman would be so enamored by the “Black Experience” that she would be willing to give up her “White privilege”? Does “White guilt” cause them to wonder how a White could join the target of their animus and discrimination? Is her decision comparable to the same self-hatred conditioned into many African Americans? Or, is her decision predicated on living in a manner that reflects the values, goals and aspirations that she holds dear?
Have Blacks been lured into unfair analyses of Rachel’s motives and behaviors that support the suggestion that there is something inherently wrong with being Black? Have Blacks, by engaging in the analysis, endorsed the distorted belief that being Black yields a person of lesser/inferior quality and character? Rather than yielding to the temptation to critique and criticize, Black people should withdraw from this conversation and leave white people to their own frustrations regarding her actions.
Did Rachel do something wrong? Yes, she misrepresented who she was! Was this misrepresentation disingenuous, against the law or did it prevent her from achieving significant or positive outcomes in her community? No, it was not and did not!
I wish that Black critics would step back, listen and not be overly judgmental of Rachel. After all, many African-Americans have been intimidated or demoralized by trying to answer the question, “Am I Black enough for you?” Attempting to manufacture purity of ideal, thought and intent, we sometimes impose a requirement for others to conform to who we think they should be. As a Black woman, I can understand what she did, though I don’t understand why she did it. Those who best know her, even after she defined herself as Black, think the good she’s done outweighs the bad.
I see the Dolezal controversy as a personal and familial dispute between her parents and her. Whatever their motives for outing her will probably never be fully understood, but I have not heard her criticized as incompetent in her work. She’s been lauded by her NAACP branch and supported by the national NAACP.
I’m willing to take her good and praise it. I’m not threatened by her serving as President of the Spokane NAACP. In truth, I’m more concerned about and critical of the Black people who don’t belong to the NAACP. As for the NAACP, white people have been an integral part for 106 years since its founding.
Few may accept my point of view, but I come from a multi-racial family. I love my Blackness, but I welcome any person of any race or culture who shares common interests.
Though many White Americans speak in exclusionary terms of “taking back their country,” we, in the Black community, take pride in our acceptance of others. We’ve prayed for the day when we wouldn’t be judged by the color of our skin. Let’s give Rachel the benefit of the doubt that she meant well–even though she made a few mistakes along the way.
Rachel Dolezal could have used her White privilege to do anything she desired. She chose to define and identify herself as a Black woman. I ask, “Who am I to judge her and tell her she shouldn’t want to be like me?” Some think her desire for Blackness is bizarre, but isn’t it a refreshing change for a White woman to choose to be Black!
To me, what Ms. Dolezal did was cultural appropriation of Blackness, but to Dr. Williams, it’s being inclusive as oppose to the practice of exclusion and narrow mindedness by mainly conservative white folk.
What are your thoughts?
S.B.(La Reyna)
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Update: In a television interview on “The Real”, Dolezal admitted that both her birth parents were White, but says she regards herself as Black. Quoting Dick Gregory, she said being Black is a state of mind. On forms she marked Black and White – because we are all children of Africa. She says the police marked her down as Black. When she applied to Howard University she said there was no box to check for race.
More:
http://newsone.com/3235652/rachel-dolezal-states-obvious-admits-she-was-born-a-white-woman/
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“Update: In a television interview on “The Real”, Dolezal admitted that both her birth parents were White, but says she regards herself as Black.”
So did Johnny Otis, the Black- American singer, musician, composer, arranger, bandleader, talent scout, disc jockey, record producer, television show host, artist, author, journalist, minister, and impresario that we must thank for talents such as Etta James and many others. His parents were Greeks from Greece.
He chose to be black instead of white.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOrQTh_Cq7U)
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@ gro jo
“He chose to be black instead of white.”
That is the height of White Privilege. White people in the USA can “choose” to be anyone they want: phony Black folk, fake Indians, long lost Asians, misplaced Latinx or ersatz Arabs.
Case in point: “Iron Eyes” Cody was actually an Italian American!
How many Black, Native, Asian Latinx or Arab folk get to “choose” to be recognized as White without extraordinary effort and pain?
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“How many Black, Native, Asian Latinx or Arab folk get to “choose” to be recognized as White without extraordinary effort and pain?”
You tell me? How much effort and pain went with Carol Channing’s whiteness or George Herriman’s?
“That is the height of White Privilege. White people in the USA can “choose” to be anyone they want: phony Black folk, fake Indians, long lost Asians, misplaced Latinx or ersatz Arabs.”
Right, you forgot about all the fake Indians, Arabs and whites, “Blacks” pretended to be like Korla Pandit and others.
“That is the height of White Privilege.”
And the problem with that is? We should all aspire to the same ‘privilege’, i.e. rights, instead of resenting others for theirs.
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“Case in point: “Iron Eyes” Cody was actually an Italian American!”
You know who else looks like an Indian? The great Oromo warrior Balcha Safo.
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Just stop the bleeding and make Dolezal disappear.
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@ gro jo
Ah yes, the inimitable Korla Pandit. A virtuouso Black musician who was so deep in his masquerade as a South Asian that some people claim even his own White wife didn’t know his true ethnic identity. (Yes, I do find that hard to believe.)
If he cared about his family or friends, he had to cut all contact with them. That is a painful process for some.
Would you be willing to post a link to an image of Balcha Safo?
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“Would you be willing to post a link to an image of Balcha Safo?”
I’ll try, if it doesn’t work click on his name and Google search. It didn’t work. Here’s a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcha_Safo
“If he cared about his family or friends, he had to cut all contact with them. That is a painful process for some.”
Pure speculation on your part, no doubt an attempt to make him a ‘victim’ because he was ‘truly’ ‘black’ but in the case of Otis and Dolezal, they were ‘evil’ ‘privileged’ ‘white’ fakers. I judge using one standard, people will do what they deem best for themselves. Pandit, Otis and Dolezal chose their identities because that’s the choices the society we live in permitted them. Black or white, you choose.
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Just curious — did Johnny Otis actually pass himself off as black and take measures to conceal his whiteness? His Wiki entry makes it sound more like he didn’t go out of his way to correct people’s assumptions but didn’t deny his race if asked. I’m not sure if this is an accurate representation, though.
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Reread his Wiki. He clearly stated the following: “As a kid I decided that if our society dictated that one had to be black or white, I would be black.”
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This time Gro-jo has a point. It is not just white people who pretend to be or pass as something else. And in every case, there is a price to pay for that, and they have to decide if it is worth it.
Historically, multi-racial people were forced to make these kinds of decisions all the time. And these decisions are not necessarily easy. Sometimes people would switch, eg, be white during the day and black at night. It doesn’t necessarily always require one to cut off contact with their family and friends.
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I always have a point jefe, glad to see you acknowledge it for a change.
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@ gro jo
Is your point always valid? If you are human, the answer is no.
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Let’s see if this .png file of Safo comes through ok:
You are right, Safo does have the same cast of features that are usually associated in this country with Native Americans.
Thanks, gro jo.
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Reread his Wiki. He clearly stated the following: “As a kid I decided that if our society dictated that one had to be black or white, I would be black.”
Yes, but that’s still an open admission that he made a choice as opposed to being born black. I’m not denying that he chose to align himself with the black community and immerse himself in black culture. But did he play the same type of charades as Rachel Dolezal, who denied she was white until she got caught?
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@ Abagond
Thanks for cleaning that up.
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@ gro jo
Most importantly, Johnny Otis (and by extension, Rachel Dolezal) can walk away from their “identity choices” whenever they wish to resume their lives of White privilege.
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“Most importantly, Johnny Otis (and by extension, Rachel Dolezal) can walk away from their “identity choices” whenever they wish to resume their lives of White privilege.”
Where’s the evidence that they did? In their eye, the ‘privilege’ you are so fixated on seems not to matter to them. Sounds to me like you resent them for being white. Are you jealous of them?
“But did he play the same type of charades as Rachel Dolezal, who denied she was white until she got caught?”
I think that my answer to kiwi is appropriate here as well.
“Kiwi, you told me you didn’t have a problem with her “…decision to identify as black. I find fault in her decision to lie. When did deceit become a virtue?” Hahahaha, you’re too funny, how the devil do you propose she identify as black without lying?”
“@ gro jo
Is your point always valid? If you are human, the answer is no.”
That’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. My points are always valid until proven otherwise. Nobody has managed such feat on this forum.
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@ gro jo
Most of your “points” are Devil’s Advocate arguments made by you for entertainment purposes. As such, they are hardly “…valid until proven otherwise.” LOL!
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“@ gro jo
Most of your “points” are Devil’s Advocate arguments made by you for entertainment purposes. As such, they are hardly “…valid until proven otherwise.” LOL!”
Nonsense. What I do is cut through the mendacity and weak arguments like kiwi’s claim that he didn’t have anything against Dolezal identifying as black except for the fact that she had to lie to do so!! There was not a soupçon of Devil’s Advocate argument in it or most of my other comments. Your Devil’s advocate claim is an attempt to avoid making a serious reply to my comments.
You keep talking about white ‘privilege’ but you can’t say why it is a ‘privilege’ when the vast majority enjoy such ‘privilege’. In my book, a privilege is something that small, powerful and exclusive groups get. If the majority enjoy such ‘privileges’, then they become rights that all, but the oppressed get to enjoy. No Devil’s advocacy in this claim either.
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I’m not trying to argue any point. I was just curious about how far Johnny Otis did or did not take it, which I haven’t been able to find a clear answer to online.
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“You keep talking about white ‘privilege’ but you can’t say why it is a ‘privilege’ when the vast majority enjoy such ‘privilege’.”
I’ve heard Peggy McIntosh speak to this in a Q&A. She said that she borrowed the concept from women’s studies, where the term “male privilege” was already being used. Perhaps the demarcation is clearer in that field, where roughly half of the population does not enjoy the same “privilege” as the other half.
She agreed with her questioner that it wasn’t the perfect terminology, but she said that she has yet to come up with a better alternative.
Even in the original essay, she wrote, “…the word “privilege” now seems to me misleading. Its connotations are too positive to fit the conditions and behaviors which “privilege systems” produce. We usually think of privilege as being a favored state, whether earned, or conferred by birth or luck. …The word “privilege” carries the connotation of being something everyone must want. Yet some of the conditions I have described here work to systemically overempower certain groups. Such privilege simply confers dominance, gives permission to control, because of one’s race or sex. The kind of privilege that gives license to some people to be, at best, thoughtless and, at worst, murderous should not continue to be referred to as a desirable attribute. Such “privilege” may be widely desired without being in any way beneficial to the whole society…. I want, then, to distinguish between earned strength and unearned power conferred systemically. Power from unearned privilege can look like strength when it is, in fact, permission to escape or to dominate.”
https://nationalseedproject.org/white-privilege-and-male-privilege
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Dolezal needs to realize black people are not costumes that you can take off and put on for her amusement. I am offended by her actions.
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@ gro jo
Mon ami
Are we going to rehash the issue of White Privilege on this thread? I recall a full and detailed discussion about that subject on a past Open Thread. The discussion started in earnest here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/open-thread-9/#comment-353421
My opinions have not changed in any significant fashion since that discussion.
Perhaps your opinions have not shifted either. If so, we will have to agree to disagree on that subject.
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@ Solitaire
Thanks for that update re: Peggy McIntosh.
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@ Mary Burrell
Many White hipsters treat Blackness the same way Dolezal does. She just goes the extra mile.
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“Are we going to rehash the issue of White Privilege on this thread?”
No.
“Many White hipsters treat Blackness the same way Dolezal does. She just goes the extra mile.”
I’m not all that interested in the views of your white hipster acquaintances.
Many phenotypically white people were kept as slaves because they were ‘black’, Sally Hemings anyone?
I don’t buy the main claim of this article, the Civil War was fought to free white looking slaves, but it does show the clear difference between Otis and others like him and people like Jefferson who kept their children in slavery. https://chancellorfiles.wordpress.com/2007/05/08/white-slaves-the-mulattoes/
You claimed that Otis and Dolezal could “walk away from their “identity choices” whenever they wish to resume their lives of White privilege.” I’d like you to backup such claim with facts, if you can.
Benjamin Bannaker’s grandmother, Molly Welsh, a white indentured servant, purchased an African slave named Banneka, became his wife had his children and cared for his and her grandchildren.
Not a hint of white hipster nonsense in this story. Given the number of mixed-race people, that story can’t be unique. Not all interracial couplings implied rape.
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@ gro jo
“Benjamin Bannaker’s grandmother, Molly Welsh, a white indentured servant, purchased an African slave named Banneka, became his wife had his children and cared for his and her grandchildren.
Not a hint of white hipster nonsense in this story. Given the number of mixed-race people, that story can’t be unique. Not all interracial couplings implied rape.”
Interesting attempt at a Straw Man (or in this case, a Straw Woman) argument. This one is ready for a dousing of gasoline and a match.
Try again.
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“Interesting attempt at a Straw Man (or in this case, a Straw Woman) argument. This one is ready for a dousing of gasoline and a match.”
Light it up. Burn baby,burn.
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