Western values (fl. 1946- ) are those moral ideas that many in the West say they value most, like freedom and democracy.
The English word “values” only goes back to 1918. It comes from a sociological model of how society works.
The phrase “Western values” did not catch on till the late 1940s during the Cold War. The US opposed the Soviet Union and world communism. So it played up the values that set it apart from communism, like capitalism, democracy and human rights of a particular sort (freedom of speech and religion, say, rather than equality). Men will not die for rubber, tin and oil, but they will die for “freedom” and “democracy”.
In 1991 the Soviet Union and world communism fell, but the use of the term “Western values” did not. Instead, Islam took the place of communism as the main threat to “Western values”. Its true threat was not to the West’s values but to the West’s – supply of oil.
If it were merely about values, then Buddhism, say, would be a bigger “threat”. What most Muslims believe is not far different from what most Christians in the West believe: God, Judgement Day, prophets, prayer, moral living, holy books, etc. By world standards, Christianity and Islam are sister religions. But the Muslim world has one thing the Buddhist world does not have: much of the world’s oil, upon which the West and its machines depend.
From there prejudiced thinking does the rest, idealizing one’s in-group while demonizing a useful out-group:
- In the Western world many see it in terms of its high-sounding moral ideas – “Western values” – while they see the Muslim world in terms of its crimes, like 9/11 or the Charlie Hebdo massacre.
- In the Muslim world it is the other way round: many see Islam in terms of its high-sounding moral ideas while they see the Western world in terms of its crimes, like Abu Ghraib (pictured) or Palestine.
Both the Western world and the Muslim world are vast enough that there are plenty of crimes with which to demonize them. Likewise, both have leaders and thinkers who produce suitably high-sounding words.
Based on Western actions, as opposed to its fine words, it is easy enough to make the case, as Martin Luther King Jr did in his speech on the Vietnam War, that the true values of the West are not freedom and democracy but racism, materialism and militarism.
The appeal to Western values only works on – Westerners. Particularly those who are:
- ethnocentric: Most people will believe that the values they were brought up in are the best, but that is an ethnocentric illusion: there is no universal way independent of culture to determine which set of values are best.
- morally blind: Many Westerners may not “see” their Islamophobia, their support for cruel governments in the Muslim world, their racism against Muslims in the US and France or the children that their drones kill, but many Muslims do, making any talk of noble Western values ring hollow.
See also:
I don’t get the post. Are you saying that the “Western values” are bad or that they aren’t “Western”?
“Most people will believe that the values they were brought up in are the best, but that is an ethnocentric illusion: there is no universal way independent of culture to determine which set of values are best.”
It’s certainly a good thing to remind oneself of that to keep things in perspective, but at the end you still have to decide in which way society should be ordered.
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Well Moslems in France deserve prejudice so they leave. Moslems have their own countries, and France belongs to the French.
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For those in other countries is ethnocentric as bad as it is in the US? Better or worse?
“morally blind: Many Westerners may not “see” their Islamophobia, their support for cruel governments in the Muslim world, their racism against Muslims in the US and France or the children that their drones kill, but many Muslims do, making any talk of noble Western values ring hollow.”—-I agree.
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USA, FRANCE, IRELAND, GERMANY, ETC…: For Christians, Moslems must all leave
SAUDI ARABIA, YEMEN, OMAN, DUBAI, ETC… for Moslems, most* Christians must leave
*I say most because there are small indigenous Christian minorities throughout the middle east who have been there for centuries, they can stay, just like Jews who have been in Europe for centuries
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Great post, here! I like the way in which you represented the opposing viewpoints from each group’s own perspectives, Abagond-it shows that there is not always that simple for one to just give an opinion about who’s “right” or who is “wrong”, as with most things in life it does not work out the way but is a choice that one has to Personally make on their own.
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..it is not always that simple, typo..
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Abagond:
I like your use of the term “ethnocentric” in the end there and recommend that you use it instead of “racist” when possible. The former term is descriptive, while the latter is judgmental and prejorative.
Also, I think the use of “morally blind” is inappropriate and misleading. You could say “morally opinionated” or something like that. It may be that many people are not “islamophopes”, but rather choose to consciously reject Islam and all that it stands for, as Christians have traditionally done for most of the past 1,500 years.
Would you, as a Christian, also say that Jesus was “morally blind” or an “islamophobe” because he said, “I am the the way, the truth and the life and no man comes unto the Father but by Me” and “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.” Does the fact that the prophet of Islam (war be upon him) was a child molester, torturer, murderer and liar (taqqiya) not mean anything to you? You think all religions are of equal worth, including worship of the devil (or Allah)?
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I forgot to add “rapist” to the list of the prophet’s (war be upon him) accomplishments above. These are undeniable if you study his life.
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Also, the photo may be taken out of context. Would it make sense to do a side-by-side with dozens of recent photos of Muslim’s beheading “Westerners” for comparison/contrast purposes? You probably did a post on beheadings and why they are wrong and what they teach us about the Islamic world, but I may have missed it, as you tend to focus mostly on criticizing white people…
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The analysis on how Muslims generally see the West today is very good. However, there was a time when the Middle East flirted with “secularism”—a Western “value”. There was the hope that this would bring stability, prosperity, security…etc….It FAILED. This is because secularism consolidated power into the hands of a (corrupt) elite that willingly exploited the country and its people.
Corruption,oppression, exploitation, injustice are some reasons Muslim people wanted a more “Islamic” system—one that would bring back ethics and morality…..
Democracy—In the U.S. today, there are 2 political parties and people have to choose between the “lesser of 2 evils”—I would not say such a circumstance is the “best” form of government…..
Capitalism—An economic system that focuses on profits and helps to consolidate wealth into the hands of a few privileged elites who then use this to control government policies in order to generate more profits ……It may not be the best system of economics either…..
Perhaps there are other ways to govern our societies and economies that would generate benefit to all rather than to the few….?…..
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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America’s moral authority is shot, but its soft power is still very strong.
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@Kiwi
Nice graphics. The west (particularly Americans) believe they are helping everyone by making them like them. Oh how can the world survive without the western values.
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@ Kiwi
Most people in the West are Christians, that is what the post assumes, but, right, the West and the Christian world are not the same thing. Putin, for example, sees Western values as a threat to Christian ones. Most Christians before 1700 probably would agree with him, but most Christians in the US probably would not.
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@ biff
I do not show certain things on this blog. Beheadings and aborted fetuses are two of them. It took me a while even to show Emmett Till’s brutalized body and I did that only then because it was his mother’s wish for the world to know.
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What Western value? The same anti-Christ Babylonian spirit is behind the current West and Islam. Between them there will be a huge war soon. And Islam, Arab and white imperialism will vanish for good.
Abagond, you’re more sympathetic towards 20 something jihadist at Abugharib than the million victims (in the past two decades alone) of Islamic Jihad in Africa So sad that your heart still beats for the Saudis, while ignoring the ongoing brutal Islamic Jihad in states like Nigeria, Kenya, Sudan etc. I recommend you to live in one of those Arab countries for sometime. The experience might help you understand what is what.
The unbelievable method Islamic militants use to kill Christians in Kenya
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nOMPy44NATo&x-yt-ts=1421782837&x-yt-cl=84359240)
The Arab Muslim Slave Trade Of Africans, The Untold Story
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8zM_MzkLKPY&x-yt-ts=1421782837&x-yt-cl=84359240)
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@ biff
1. I do not believe in Judaism. Does that mean I should be anti-Semitic? Just because I do not believe in Islam it does not mean I have to be Islamophobic, that I have to demonize and otherize Muslims. Sure, Muslims have done plenty of terrible things, but so have Christians and Westerners.
2. Being morally blind means turning a blind eye – or making excuses for – evil. A very different thing than having strong moral opinions.
3. Does the fact that the writer of the Declaration of Independence was a slave owner, a racist and a rapist mean anything to you?
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OPEC clearly has something to do with gas being like $1.79 a gallon in NJ, especially considering the gas tax in that state
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OPEC clearly has had (via production levels etc.) an effect on the price of gasoline, so if you drive in the US …
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@ Kartoffel
I am saying that the idea of “Western values” is often misused.
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@ Jethro
What makes you think my heart beats for the Saudis? Also, I have not ignored violence by Muslims in Nigeria and Sudan:
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@George
“are we demonizing western values in this post Abagond???”
Honestly, have you read actually read article? If you did, I’d suggest re-reading b/c it clearly went over your head.
@Abagond
“Does the fact that the writer of the Declaration of Independence was a slave owner, a racist and a rapist mean anything to you?”
Add to that a fornicator, murderer, thief, genocidal, and hypocrite
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again, western values are in part defined by ‘way of life’ or ‘quality of life’ that includes oil prices and it’s like opec is doing something? not sure how it ties in with obama’s last few months
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I think he’s saying that the “Western values” which are advocated, and the ones which are practiced, are not the same. “Freedom & democracy” are preached, but discrimination and war are pushed instead.
With regards to “how society should be ordered” — that would depend on the culture of the society in question. There are different cultures and the optimal ordering for one may not be the same for another. While I don’t think there’s any society that “requires” a corrupt dictator, concepts like “democracy”, whose present form originated from a Western cultural context (ancient India may have had some democracy or democracy-like systems, but they did not apparently influence the present democracy concept), may need to be modified depending on the society in question if they are to work. Likewise, there could be insights that other cultures have had which could — with analogous modification, perhaps — be beneficial to the West. But nah, the West won’t like that, since it considers itself to be inherently more civilized than everyone else. I think that’s also what Abagond may have been objecting to.
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abagond:
Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I’ll now respond in turn.
To showcase beheadings you don’t need to show the actual decapitations, just the set-up is enough to get the point across, and those photos have certainly appeared on major news outlets. You just don’t want to touch the topic, because you only want to demonize white people (even for the recent attacks in Baga your point is–“why don’t white people care?”–“why won’t they help?”, rather than “Africa needs to step up and take care of its own”).
Re: showing aborted babies, the idea is to humanize the victims, since people actually see dead babies and not just sub-human “fetuses” in the pictures.
Re: Islam stuff
“1. I do not believe in Judaism. Does that mean I should be anti-Semitic? Just because I do not believe in Islam it does not mean I have to be Islamophobic, that I have to demonize and otherize Muslims. Sure, Muslims have done plenty of terrible things, but so have Christians and Westerners.”
No. Not all religions are the same. This is like saying Satanists are just as good/bad as Christians. You don’t believe life would be better (or even similar) if you lived in a Muslim country and you would never want to live in one personally or send your children to live there (particularly daughters, if you had any).
“2. Being morally blind means turning a blind eye – or making excuses for – evil. A very different thing than having strong moral opinions.”
Most people who oppose Islam do it on principle. If Western supporters of Islam turn a blind eye to its evil, then they are the ones who are “morally blind” by your own definition.
“3. Does the fact that the writer of the Declaration of Independence was a slave owner, a racist and a rapist mean anything to you?”
He held views pretty much everyone of his time did. If you want to call almost everyone in human history “racist” it’s practically a meaningless term. Whether he was a “rapist” is conjecture. Women love men with power. Sad but true.
BUT, the key is no one worships him. No one says Jefferson (peace be upon him). He is not a religious leader. He was just a famous man, like many others in history (he’s not even on Rushmore). Compare the character of Jesus and Muhammed (war be upon him) and their lives and actions and it’s clear who was of God and who was of the Devil (aka Shatan aka Allah). It’s been very clear to Christians for most of the last 1500 years. You are the one who has become morally blind in not seeing this readily apparent evil.
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Nevermind re: Rushmore, I was thinking Ben Franklin (also an author of the DOI), but the point is no one really cares about those dudes in the sense that Muslims do about Muhammed (war be upon him).
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@Kiwi
“Let’s keep this PG-13. Can we compare Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny instead?”—–ROFL!!!
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Muslims do NOT have the right to spread Islam by the sword—Because the Quran does not advocate compulsion in religion. Muslims have conquered territories—but that is not the same as religious compulsion. (And historical research shows that the spread of Islam was gradual. The Ummayads tried to discourage conversion to Islam because of the mistaken (and prejudicial) desire to keep Islam for the Arabs)
In order to preserve the right to freedom of religion (traditionally)—Sharia was not imposed on non-Muslims. In the Sharia system, non-Muslims had their own laws and courts.
Jesus Christ (pbuh)–To Muslims, the message of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is in the Quran. God sent messengers as Guidance to humanity throughout time and to all places. The Guidance to worship One God and the principles of Compassion and Mercy balanced with Justice, have been consistent throughout time. Almost every chapter/Surah of the Quran begins with the words—In the name of God Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.
The West likes to talk about freedom and rights. But in the Islamic paradigm, Responsibility is equally as important as rights/privileges—So, human beings have rights—but they also have the (God-given) responsibility of having right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God’s creations.(Khalifa—trusteeship)
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“Let’s keep this PG-13. Can we compare Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny instead?”
creepy, old white pedophile vs. stupid and promiscuous layabout
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@ mike4ty4
“I think he’s saying that the “Western values” which are advocated, and the ones which are practiced, are not the same. “Freedom & democracy” are preached, but discrimination and war are pushed instead.”
I am a little confused how the term “values” is used in this post. Is it the things we do or is it the things we hold dear. If it’s the former to speak of rule of law, civil rights etc. as “Western values” is hypocritical. But if It’s the latter it’s fine, because who in the West argues that imperialism, racism, war etc. is a good thing?
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“who in the West argues that imperialism, racism, war etc. is a good thing?”
You would be surprised how many do—they just use different names for it—such as Manifest Destiny, Benevolent Assimilation (American-Philippine war) or American Exceptionalism (today)……
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@ Anon
That is not the same. For example the Westerners in the 19th century justified colonialism with a “mission to civilize”. That makes civilization the value, not colonialism.
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@Kartoffel,
Re: your last statement, what does “civilization” mean to you? How does that differ from colonization?
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I don’t exactly know what the 19th century-Westerners thought when they said “civilization”, but without researching I would guess: society is ordered by a state, living in permanent settlements, part of the world trade, literacy etc.
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There are layers of reasons for the hatred felt by jihadists toward the west, including crimes, as outlined by Agabond, decades of corrupt political meddling resulting often in brutality, as alluded to by Kiwi, and, on top of all of that, the perception that this systemic engagement in execrable acts is being perpetrated by a soft, slovenly, amoral (embraces gays, etc.), jingoistic, sacrilegious, and even blasphemous population of loudmouthed, obese, ignorant semi-illiterates who enjoy lives of astonishing material wealth and ease compared to almost everybody else in the world yet exhibit not one ounce of humility of thankfulness for this fact. In many ways they are right, especially as to the third layer.
It’s also true, as Agabond points out, that Islam and Christianity are not that far removed from one another. An extremist fundamentalist version of Christianity would be difficult to distinguish from the jihadis of today. In fact there is a low level of that sort of thing taking place right now in the US. An example would be Christian terrorists who murder abortion doctors. A few decades ago, the KKK. Etc.
All of that is somewhat esoteric. In our current reality, there is no denying that the recent growth of Islamist jihad poses a grave and direct danger to the populations of the US and Europe. Did Bush43 catalyze the dramatic rise in Islamist jihadism with his hubris-driven fiasco in Mesopotamia? Without question, yes. However, it is what it is at this point.
Islamist fundamentalists believe that the Koran condones the imposition of Islamic theocratic government across the globe and the elimination of non-believers through any means necessary. They believe that it condones the killing of non-believers, and lying to them (us) about this intent to lull us into a false sense of security.
Thus, as much as apologists and politicians try to say that our current crisis is not about religion or ideology, that is in reality the only thing it is about. There is a natural moral repugnance among liberal-minded thinkers to the idea that a religion must be viewed as an enemy, but the factual reality is that a religion is in the process of making itself into the enemy of non-believers who reside in the developed world of Europe and the US. That is likely every poster on this board. It is a danger to us, our children, our homes, our communities.
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@ Kiwi @ Biff
I deleted some of your off-colour comments as personal remarks.
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@Karfottel
“For example the Westerners in the 19th century justified colonialism with a ‘mission to civilize’.”
There’s nothing civilised about land theft, murder, genocide, rape, and enslavement. And the real “mission” of colonialism was always to generate wealth. They only invoked the bible or the term “civilisation” to make themselves feel better about all their evil deeds.
“I would guess: society is ordered by a state, living in permanent settlements, part of the world trade, literacy etc.”
In the 19th century, Europe was mostly ILliterate, and in the middle of dozens of wars. The places Europeans attempted to colonise were far more civilised, less violent, more educated, more orderly, more permanently settled.
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@ Kartoffel
I tried to make clear in the post that values can be viewed as either what people say they value – freedom, democracy, etc – or they can be viewed through actions – militarism, materialism, racism, etc. In the West people make a big deal of the words. To the rest of the world, it is Western actions that matter more. So the “Western values” things comes across as hypocrisy to non-Westerners, and even to many Westerners, like myself. The contradiction you are talking about is part of what it is.
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@ Biff
Wrong. If that was my aim then I would have played up the saintly virtues of Islam and then relentlessly hit people over the head with Western atrocities – the mirror image of what Islamophobes do.
When I was a boy I was hit over the head with communist atrocities. Now it is Muslim atrocities. Same ish, different day. Meanwhile, not being a member of the White Innocence Project, I know about Western atrocities, past and present, and hopefully see them for what they are. Anyone who talks about Western values without talking about them is not giving a balanced, honest or helpful picture.
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@ Kiwi
I am just waiting on him to pull out the IQ argument.
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So what is Abagond trying to say in this post, that none of us are without faults? If that’s the case then I agree. But if he is saying that any other value system is ‘better’ then I disagree.
I notice Abagond does this a lot. He takes two seemingly related concepts and draws a false comparison, in this case it’s Islam and Buddhism. Or should I say militant-extremist versions of these two religions.
The reason we focus on Islamic extremism is that it has a higher adherence rate, in terms of sheer numbers. I am sure there are Buddhist extremists as well but they tend to be less in terms of quantity compared to the Islamic Extremists. There’s also the fact that “I.E” tends to favour attacking the West, which means the focus of the West will be on I.E.
Unfair you say? We should be comparing all the religious extremists equally in terms of proportion?
I used the same arguments Abagond uses when he says that the Black American murder is not something that makes them seem inherently bad, because the White American murders, in terms of quantity, are so much greater (I forget the exact wording, so I may be misquoting here.)
I don’t believe that Black America is screwed up by default. I don’t believe that White America is this magic place that does no wrong. What I do believe is in proportionality. And in this case there are a lot more Islamic Extremists than there are Buddhists Extremists.
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According to “Open Doors” (you can google) global persecution of Christians in terms of degrees. The worst is “extreme persecution.” Eleven countries are named here. In 10 of these, the persecutors are Islamic. The second worst type of Christian persecution is “severe persecution.” In 11 of 14 countries, the culprits are Islamic. Next there is “moderate persecution.” In 10 of 14 countries, those responsible for the persecution are largely Islamic. Finally, there is “sparse persecution.” In nine of 11 countries, Muslims engage in the persecution of Christians.
In none of these instances of Islamic violence and oppression does “Western values” or foreign policy of the West play a role.
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^^^Here is the source you are looking to speak on. I will comment on it later.
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/
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@ Kevinblyton
Some terms used in Westrn discourse are very flexible—for example, in the American-Phillipine war, those Phillipinos that resisted American imperilaism were called radicals, bandits…etc Today the terms extremists and terrorist are used for those who oppose the financial/economic/strategic interests of the “West”—The Taliban were freedom fighters when their interests aligned with that of the West but are terrorists when not—the same with Chechen fighters who are terrorists to Russians but freedom fighters to the U.S…..or Neslon Mandela…..etc
Today there is more concern in the West about those who oppose the West from Muslims majority countries—because these Muslim majority countries are the ones that the West attacked….etc. If the West had systematically attacked a lot of Buddhist-majority countries then you would have seen “blowback” from there. This is very normal human behaviour—recall the hysteria after 9/11 and the thirst for revenge and the attack on 2 unrelated countries in order to punish—or after Pearl harbor when bombs were dropped on Japanese civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki……It does not excuse such behaviour by human beings…..whatever the geographical location they may be living in….We must all strive to be better than this….
This is easier said than done for Muslims who oppose extremisms—they are being killed by both the Western “extremists” and the “Muslim” extremists….
(an article on the net posited an interesting perspective—that what we are seeing today is a clash of extremisms…..)
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@Kevinblyton,
Just reading what you wrote, it looks more like you invoked a false comparison – ie
* Buddhism and Islam values & Christianity
vs.
* Buddhist Extremism & Muslim extremism
Also let me know where he states that the other value system is better? I haven’t seen him do that.
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Anon,
Thank you for bringing up the point of “who / what is an extremist?”
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“Terrorism” and “extremist” are, in effect, propaganda terms. When Muslims kill 12 people at Charlie Hebdo, it is an act of “terrorism” done by “extremists”. Yet when Israel bombs schools and hospitals in Gaza, it is called “self-defence”. It is like how Trayvon Martin became the “thug” while George Zimmerman was merely acting in “self-defence”.
The West kills vastly more Muslim civilians than Muslims kill Western civilians – it is not even close – yet to call a US president or an Israeli prime minister a “terrorist” or an “extremist” makes you sound like a nut.
A pirate once said to Alexander the Great:
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@Jefe Sat 24 Jan 2015 at 03:23:15
I haven’t used the word Christianity in my reply, not sure where you’re getting that from. Maybe it was brought up in the prior comments? I hadn’t read any before commenting as I wanted my thought process to be ‘fresh’.
“Also let me know where he states that the other value system is better? I haven’t seen him do that.”
Which is why I asked whether Abagond is saying if another system is better. If a picture that shows a source of shame, to those who believe in that system, is used in an article, I am assuming that author meant it as a supporting ‘leg’ in his or her argument.
To repeat. I asked Abagond whether he thought another set of values was better. I did not accuse him of favouring another set of values.
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@anon Sat 24 Jan 2015 at 03:15:54
I don’t know if you are debating my point or just mentioning a fact. If it was intended as an “additional info” post then I thank you. If it was intended as an argument against my points, then I fail to see how it applies to anything I’ve written.
(Sorry if this comment sounds rude or snarky. I really am being well-meaning when I say this). 🙂
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@kevinblyton
Not to be a pain but with all due respect these are the questions you asked him:
1.So what is Abagond trying to say in this post, that none of us are without faults?
2. Unfair you say? We should be comparing all the religious extremists equally in terms of proportion?
So at what point did you ask “whether Abagond is saying if another system is better” If for nothing more than clarification purposes.
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“So what is Abagond trying to say in this post, that none of us are without faults? If that’s the case then I agree. But if he is saying that any other value system is ‘better’ then I disagree.”
–Kevin Blyton, Fri 23 Jan 2015 at 22:01:32
I should have phrased it better I think. That was what I was referring to.
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@kevinblyton,
You said
referring to Abagond’s post. I thought you were referring to
in his post.
If you were not comparing Islam values and Buddhism values with respect to Christian values as you implied by referring to Abagond’s post, or if you referring to another part of Abagond’s post, perhaps you can clarify your meaning then so that we would not be confused. Thanks.
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@ Abagond
The term “terrorist” has lost all meaning and is just used to say: “These are the guys we hate”. But originally it was useful to describe violent groups or persons that wanted mainly to strike fear into other people. By that definition these groups wouldn’t be terrorists: Hamas, IS, Hizbollah, Taliban. While these groups are: Al-Qaida, RAF, Organisation Consul.
@ Kiwi
I generally agree with your view of Chrisianity in Europe, but it is misleading to call the “non-chrisitans” “atheists”. At least in Germany the majority of the people who aren’t affiliated with any church often still hold a vague set of religious beliefs. “Real atheists” are relativly small group.
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In German we call them “konfessionslos” (without denomination). The dictionary proposes “undenominational” as a translation but I’m not sure if it has that meaning.
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@Kevin
Thanks for clarifying.
@Kiwi
Even Mormon churches in the states are having trouble with attendance records. My grandmother who was raised Baptist and attended church all her life ever Sunday does not go anymore. We live in the bible belt south by the way. Christianity is on a downward spiral.
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The growth of secularism is a tragedy. But the growth of Islam in the west is also a threat. If most Westerners have no strong attachment to Christianity, but most Moslems in the West have a strong attachment to Islam, than most Westerners will be less motivated to crusade against the Islamicization of the west.
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@ kevinblyton
There is no way to determine which set of values are best. I said that right in the post:
Values are that by which you determine whether something is good or bad. It is like measuring a measuring stick.
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@ kevinblyton
About the picture: it is meant to go with the title. It is aimed mainly at a Western audience, which will read the title and think “freedom and democracy” or something along those lines, but then see the well-known picture of Abu Ghraib and think, “Oh, right.” The difference between words and actions is the main theme of the post. The title and picture are meant to get you started on that.
Later in the post, Abu Ghraib is used as an example of a Western crime. I say how Western crimes figure into different people’s thinking.
I was thinking of pairing it with a picture of 9/11, but that would have confused the title.
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The picture of that poor guy about to be executed is horrifying.
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@Bobby M
“The growth of secularism is a tragedy.”
Read the US Constitution, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” That’s secularism.
The bastard, Tommy Jefferson also wrote about the idea of “a wall of separation between church and state.” That’s secularism too. It’s nothing new.
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@Abagond Sat 24 Jan 2015 at 21:02:48
—-
There is no way to determine which set of values are best. I said that right in the post:
“ethnocentric: Most people will believe that the values they were brought up in are the best, but that is an ethnocentric illusion: there is no universal way independent of culture to determine which set of values are best.”
Values are that by which you determine whether something is good or bad. It is like measuring a measuring stick.
—-
I live in a country which requires all its citizens to be part of the official religion. If a citizen were to renounce said religion, the law requires that he or she be executed.
Let’s take two countries with identical laws, EXCEPT for one fact. Country A has the execute the citizen for apostasy law, while Country B does not have that law.
Would you say that Country B has a better set of values than Country A? How about comparatively?
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@ kevinblyton
If you are asking MY opinion, of course I think killing anyone in the name of religion is terrible. But understand that I grew up in a country that oushes the idea of freedom of religion, a country that grew out of a Europe in which millions died in wars of religion. ON THE OTHER HAND, I also belong to a religion that has burned heretics in the past, so I understand there is another side to the issue, that ARGUABLY it is better to kill a few heretics than to have the heresy spread and lead millions to hell:
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I seriously doubt that Christianity will “die out” by the end of the century. Globally, Christianity is taught from a Western/Eurocentric perspective. In many societies Christianity is a tool for spiritual enslavement to Whites. The old saying among Black/African people: “When the white man came to Africa he had the Bible and we, the natives, had the land. But after the White man read the scriptures to us he had the land and we had the Bible.” That’s psychology 101 – in the name of Jesus – for you!
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It’s more problematic in the Islamic world. Unlike in public, the White man (as Mason or Shriner) reads or studies the Qu’ran in privacy.
The Muslim believer knows that the White man (Westerner) will NOT read any su’rahs of the Qu’ran publicly, so the White man will come in the name of democracy (for the resourceful oil). But when democracy is rejected by the Muslim believer the White man will come back in the name Western terrorism (i.e., his military and helpmate – NATO). In some cases, like in Libya, his direct and indirect terrorism worked.
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“… killing anyone in the name of religion is terrible. ”
How we understand terms are important—in the West the term “religion” is understood very narrowly as theology—but to most Non-Western people, “religion” (way of life/ethico-moral principles) is understood as philosophy. If such a broad understanding is used for this term—then the various Western “isms” such as liberalism, humanism, secularism….etc can all be understood as value systems…the same way as Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam….etc
So I would say…killing anyone in the name of any value system is terrible.
But…morality/justice also requires exceptions such as self-defense and treason.
Are people such as Manning and Snowden patriots or traitors? Can one say that since they went against the “value system’ of the U.S.( by exposing it) they are not patriots—or do we say that their exposure benefited the people of the country so they are patriots….?……
Certainty, simplicity, black/white answers are easier because they task our intellect less than nuanced, complex answers—but if we are to understand the world we live in—we have to strive to understand its reality……
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There’s a huge difference between “religion” and “spirituality”. Religion simply means “realigning one back to God’s word” (“Be”). According to most native people of the Earth, spirituality means “one who believes in the spirit” (spirit of the Ancestors). I’m a spiritual being that’s going through a human experience. Enough said.
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@Biff
You do realize that Christianity spawned from the same Semitic Origins as Islam? Why is that white people problem recognizing this? Are they in denial of history or coming into terms with the truth?
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“Even Mormon churches in the states are having trouble with attendance records. My grandmother who was raised Baptist and attended church all her life ever Sunday does not go anymore. We live in the bible belt south by the way. Christianity is on a downward spiral.”
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Sharina
I see the composite (NOI, Catholics, Protestants, etc…) Black church in America dwindling down from its former numbers, power and influence. Generations X,Y and Z don’t seem to have the similar belief in religion/God as their predecessors had in times past.
On the other hand, ask Mr. (Smiley) Joel Osteen if his particular style of Christianity is in a downward spiral.
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Islam is a heresy and Mahomet is a false Prophet. It is every Christians duty to convert Moslems and stamp out their heresy
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Islam is a heresy and Mahomet is a false Prophet. It is every Christians duty to convert Moslems and stamp out their heresy
So’s Satanism but it doesn’t stop you and your racist ilk from practicing it eh?
Get a life you read like an obsessed lunatic.
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@Kiwi
Exactly. So’s “In God We Trust.” Clearly a violation of the US Constitution. Chistianists like Bobby M are hypocrites who only invoke the Constitution when it suits them.
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^Here’s a very recent sketch from the Daily Show showing the hypocrisy of Christianists who on one hand voted to ban Sharia law on the basis that it’s foreign law, but on the other hand don’t realise that their law could ban Christianity/bible because it too can be construed as foreign law (starts at 2:13):
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_JG-WDV2IQ&w=560&h=315%5D)
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Kiwi said:
This may be upsetting for Islamophobic Christians to hear, but atheism is the greater threat to Christianity than Islam…
I don’t agree. The greater threat to Christianity is not “atheism” but “Scientism”. Atheism is a passive doctrine, that is, it is a personal choice, not an ideological crusade.
In contrast there has been and continues to be a doctrine of Scientism that is pushed on society. Don’t interpret what I say as meaning I am against the practice of science, i’m not.
Scientism is extremely damaging, it won’t just destroy religion but it will also destroy the capacity for common sense and basic values of decency. Institutions of power use whether “a study” has been done or not to continue practices that are dubious are likely harmful. Think of the FDA as an example, there are plenty of institutional examples though and personal examples in dealings with people.
A definition of scientism:
an exaggerated trust in the efficacy of the methods of natural science applied to all areas of investigation (as in philosophy, the social sciences, and the humanities)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scientism
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Scientism is not a word that people use because we are all supposed to love science. It is not taught, in the “schools” that there is a doctrine called “Scientism” nor what it is; so, we use “atheism” instead but using the wrong words cripples our thoughts and discourse, just as Orwell warned.
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@ Bobby M
Having been raised a Christian and to have four uncles who are Muslims (one with the Nation and the other three being Orthodox) I reaped the full benefits of learning both faiths. I must admit that the Christianity taught to us, Blacks, has always served as tool for spiritual enslavement. However, Christianity in the Black race is slowly becoming more nationalistic in its ideology – meaning that Jesus and the Prophets are viewed as people of color and NOT Caucasians. That’s a huge step for a people who were taught everything about Jesus and Christianity from a Western perspective.
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@resw77,
Thanks for the clip.
Reminds me of my childhood trips to Alabama.
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@Kiwi,
Have you been to the Philippines? For a country that is over 90% Christian, there is Christian imagery all over the place, and it is nearly entirely all white people / European..
I haven’t been to South Korea, the 2nd largest majority Christian nation in East / SE Asia, but I bet their imagery is almost entirely European / white western too.
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@ Kiwi
You’re absolutely right. Christianity is almost synonymous to white supremacy. White missionaries are on every continent pushing white supremacy in the name of Christianity. They’ve been doing this for centuries.
In Ethiopia, White missionaries are replacing the Ethiopian portraits of Mary and Jesus with their Western portraits of Mary and Jesus, which is unfortunate because the Ethiopian Orthodox Church predates Westernized Christianity. http://mereja.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86647 In fact, King Ezana of Ethiopia became a Christian emperor before Constantine of Rome.
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@Just Me
That is very much true. Even for myself I am slowly, but surely pulling away from religion. Many I talk to see the people as hypocritical. My grandmother says she the preachers use the pulpit as a platform for personal vendettas making it less about God and more about wordy matters I personally think she is right in that regard as people find a way to slip I their own beliefs all the time.
As to Joel Osteen, what is his appeal? I just don’t get it.
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@ Kiwi
You surprise me that you did not address my main point.
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“As to Joel Osteen, what is his appeal? I just don’t get it.”
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Supposedly he makes his preaching more palatable for his growing congregation. He smiles a lot. Talks about love and being positive… and zilch about SIN. His pulpit style focuses much more on God’s forgiveness and mercy, but nothing about evil, Hell and damnation.
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Pray everyone, pray!
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@sharinalr
“As to Joel Osteen, what is his appeal? I just don’t get it.”
He preaches about self esteem, overcoming obstacles, achieving goals, success, and wealth. I’m not a Christian (anymore), but I enjoy many of Osteen’s sermons. Many are very empowering, but there are lots of critics who think Osteen is less of a Christian or even a satanist.
@Michael Cooper
“In Ethiopia, White missionaries are replacing the Ethiopian portraits of Mary and Jesus with their Western portraits of Mary and Jesus, which is unfortunate because the Ethiopian Orthodox Church predates Westernized Christianity.”
Precisely. It’s a shame that they’ve forced the Christian churches to put up white images of Jesus and Mary, when there are hundreds if not thousands of black images of Jesus and Mary in Ethiopia from hundreds if not thousands of years ago.
I just don’t understand for the life of me why Ethiopia, which expelled these guys in the 1600s under Fasilides and other times since then are allowing these missionaries and historians with ulterior motives back in.
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@Kiwi,
Can we not just call it “secularism”?
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Yes, it doesn’t explain it. I was only looking for a word to describe it (as “atheism” might be less accurate). Atheism is the official religious policy in China.
Are there any good books out there on “The Rise of Secularism”?
For me personally, what made me become more secular in my viewpoint was the hypocrisy in many of the “Christian” values taught in the USA, eg, those that justified slavery, Jim Crow, mass incarceration, genocide, ethnic cleansing, settler colonialism and other forms of disenfranchisement.
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@ resw77
The missionaries are fully aware of Ethiopia’s rich and powerful history. Ethiopia is the only African nation to militarily defeat a Western nation (The Battle of Adwa in 1896). For most Whites, defeat is a hard peel to swallow. White missionaries also known as White supremacists have had Ethiopia on their “hit list” for a long time. Their mission is slowly being accomplished with the westernization of Ethiopia’s most powerful house – the Orthodox Church.
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One way to look at it would be to understand Secularism as a value system same as Catholicism…the value system it tried to supplant….So while Catholicism might posit a value system based on God’s law, Secularism posits one based on “human reason”—in other words “power” is transferred from the Church to the human lawmaker. In order to make one value system supreme, the other had to go. (Communism can also be understood this way…..)
(I did not use “Christianity” because IMO, Protestantism is too divided to be a powerful enough threat—Catholicism on the other hand was/is Global….)
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@Michael Cooper
Interesting and unfortunate. I also thought it was interesting that the current “bible” used by the Tewahedo church was not adopted til 1986, the year when the Jesuits Eastern Africa was formed. I think it’s more than just a coincidence.
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It is interesting that the focus of this and related posts and on the fear of the threat to Western Values deals with Islamophobia.
But much has been happening in China in the past year or so (corresponding to Xi’s rise to power) with respect to this topic, not so much with the threat to Western Values, but the threat OF Western Values.
China closes door on western values
(http://www.ejinsight.com/20150127-china-closes-door-on-western-values/)
China Is Shutting Out Western Thinking
(http://www.businessinsider.com/china-is-shutting-out-western-thinking-2015-1)
China is undergoing an active campaign to purge itself of “Western Values” which they feel are undermining the integrity of their country and the power of the Chinese Communist Party. Xi is promoting the re-embracement of a few selected elements of Marxist ideology, eg, Dialectical materialism.
Hostile western forces are not just foreign nations, or foreign personnel, but also foreign, namely “western” ideas, or Chinese interpretation of western ideas. There is increasingly more severe for persons (eg, academics) who use western ideas to make any critical statements about Chinese government or society.
There is increasing clampdown on Virtual Private Networks (VPN) in China now too, which allows residents to view websites that have been blocked by China’s firewall (eg, Facebook, Youtube, WordPress, Google, etc.).
These “foreign forces” infiltrating Hong Kong, eg, are not just countries or people, but western ideas and values (per the CCP).
It is really strange, though, to hear this type of talk coming out of the mouths of HK’s current crop of political leaders, eg, CY Leung et al, which has escalated since the Occupy Central movement, especially since the majority of them received a western education and were educated at overseas universities. Many of them also obtained foreign passports in the run up to 1997 (which the most top officials had to relinquish to assume their current posts).
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@ Kiwi
I honestly doubt scientism is the main threat as I’ve never noticed a pattern of non-religious, non-Christians sharing a particular affinity for scientific dogma.
Because you haven’t seen a process or a thing, that process or thing does not exist!? Uh-huh.
Scientism is a socially active phenomena. We often don’t “see” social phenomena clearly. If an American [white] doesn’t see a state policy to incarcerate as many blacks as possible, does it mean there is no de facto policy to do so? ( I’m alluding to severer punishments for blacks in comparison to whites when both parties commit the same crime. The allusion is restricted to the U.S. in my example.)
It is not about consciously seeing some thing or process,or ideology, or social practices, or cultural practices, or the habits of your own subconscious mind, etc; these things work best when we are not fully or at all consciously aware of them.
An anecdotal last point on not seeing things which nevertheless are present and functioning:
When I was a Christian, I was very Protestant in my approach to contact and experience with God. I didn’t feel that Pastors, Ministers, Vicars, Priests, etc, were important in getting me in contact with God or my spirituality. I “always” (my living memory of it) felt that I could just talk to God whenever I felt like it and that men were men even if they had become Priests and so on. We can call such a mentality, as I had, “Protestant”. Did I have any awareness of Protestantism or Martin Luther as a child? I can tell you my knowledge of both growing up was zilch. Was I still being inculcated to some degree with Protestantism? Yes.
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@ resw77
You’re absolutely right. It’s more than just a coincidence. I’ve visited the Ethiopian church (on Slauson Avenue) in Ladera Heights (in the Greater L.A. area) and, yes, Ethiopian Christians do read the current “bible” in its Amharic translation.
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Let’s be clear, Western thought, behavior and values are no different than the traditional Western diet. The Western way of life is very toxic and it’s known to take away the true essence of people, especially people of color.
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From Pumpkin:
@ Abagond
Yes, I agree 100% with this. Western values does not conjure up positive thoughts to me at all. It conjures up thoughts of genocide against Native Americans, slavery, racism…and commercialism.
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From xinhua news agency (CCP mouthpiece) English news today:
Education minister warns against “western values” in colleges
(http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2015-01/30/c_133958419.htm)
Commentary from the Hong Kong Economic Journal’s english page (HKEJ does NOT usually tow the CCP party line.)
Keep western values out of Chinese classrooms: Minister
(http://www.ejinsight.com/20150130-keep-western-values-out-of-chinese-classrooms-minister/)
This seems to be a mismatch with many parents in Mainland China as many would like their children to have access to a “western style” education, which would include educational materials of western origin.
The movement to purge China from this type of education is promoted vigourously from the very top.
However, China seems to have no problem with Western values such as genocide, involuntary labour, racism, materialism and militarism.
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Is the term “Western values” in China generally understood as the principles of liberalism (like the examples in your quotes)? To Russians it seems to mean feminism, secualrism and the acceptance of homosexuality (additional to the liberal principles).
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Indeed, the term “Western Values” means very different things to different people and governments around the world.
China follows a very top down management and governance system. Anything that disrupts that, or makes it unstable, or threatens the CCP’s power and authority is undesirable. So they will call it whatever will work to enforce that. So Uighurs in Xinjiang are muslim extremist terrorists, India is demonized for harbouring the Tibetan government in exile and Hong Kong people have been adulterated with western values – China is actively pushing for a cultural purge of their education system. All have been led astray by “foreign interference” and have become “unpatriotic”.
It could not mean secularism in China as China is officially atheist and secular. Public expression of Islam, Judaism and Christianity as well as any non-Chinese authority over their religious governance and operation is all frowned upon and heavily restricted if tolerated at all.
One thing China does not use is the term “universal values” like what Westerners do.
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@ Kiwi
Is it? In Karl Marx’s day generally Germany wasn’t considered a “Western country”. I would call Communism a European phenomenon.
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I disagree. I think the West in the current sense (not in the mediaval Western Christianity sense) shaped in the late 19th century and by then Reformation and Enlightenment already had fused into shared eurpean thought. Also german protestants in 1900 wouldn’t have called Luther a “Westerner”.
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That is the problem with all social constructs, they pretend to be something else. It’s the same thing with the “white race” and many nations. The moment you try to look at the borders and come up with clear definitions it gets murky.
The best definition of the West I heared is the following: The countries that all inhabitants consider Western and that were considered part of it since the 19th century are the Western core (France, UK, the US and the Benelux). The countries where only a majority consider the country Western and that joined later are half-Western (Central and Southern Europe). The countries where a minority consider the country Western and are currently politically opposed th the West are Western prospects (Russia, Turkey, Serbia). The countries no-one considers Western are non-Western. And that doesn’t even cover Latin America that once on some occasions was considered Western but isn’t anymore.
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Values are based on philosophies not on geography….?……I could be wrong but I was under the impression that, generally, the philosophies that Westerners self-identitfy as “theirs” are secularism, liberalism, humanism, capitalism, naturalism,… …etc…and more recently terms such as materialism, post-modernism,—have also been used as identifiers of Western values…?…
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These things are certainly identified as “Western”, among others. But they don’t help you to identify which countries are considered “Western”.
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If we were to speak of Christian values or Buddhist values or Islamic values—geography would not enter into it because these are global. So, in that sense we might say that the use of the term Western values is because there is no other term for these set of (somewhat non-theistic) values….?….
As to which countries are “Western” this would depend on the self-identification of the country as “Western” and its acceptance by the group—So Australia, New Zealand, Europe and U.S. are considered “Western”…but if Singapore wanted to be Western—it likely would not be accepted….?…..
Values are abstract principles but nation-states are physical…..?…..
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@ Anon
I’m more comfortable with the term “liberal principles” than “Western values”, because everyone who uses the term “Western values” seems to mean those ideas of 19th century liberalism. But it seems unconvincing that the ideas of the 19th century conservatism are any less “Western”. They were very strong in France and the UK at the time, but didn’t prevail.
How does a country become Western? Now it seems unconcievable that a country like Singapore would ever be considered Western, but that was true for countries like Georgia, Ukraine and Albania as well not that long ago. And even though they’re not yet “in the club”, they are at the doorstep. My guess is it depends on how much the respective country tries to be Western. If they follow the lead of the core Western countries in foreign policy, try to join the Western alliances, try to form their society in a “Western way” and emphasize their historical conntection with the West, they might be considered as Western at some point.
But a country also can slip away from the West again. For example Turkey probaby was considered Western by more people during the Cold War than today.
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Although yahoo answers is not the best source , I agree with the response in maybe determine what makes a country western.
“They have to share many of the beliefs and norms of Western Europe. Western Europe is on the western side of a huge land mass that includes Europe, Asia, the middle East, and Africa.
Some of the beliefs and norms of Western Europe are: an economy based on modern industrialism, a language derived from ancient Roman or Greek languages, a belief in Christianity, A belief in representative democracy, a belief in secular government, a belief in a “rule of law” rather than “a rule of men”, etc.”
So it could be looked at as the beliefs or maybe foundation of said country.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100328122916AAW7Z4n
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My own idea of what the “the West” is: it is the civilization that grew out of the western Roman Empire. Any country or society where the main religion is Catholic or Protestant (the western branch of Christianity), or whose main language is written with Roman letters, is arguably Western, Westernizing or part Western. Since Orthodox Christian countries are not too far different from the West, in 200 years or so they might be seen as Western too.
Countries like Turkey, Indonesia or Japan I see as part Western.
I see Latin America as Western and much of Africa as Westernizing and this is where many people disagree with me.
The trouble is that one of the core Western values is racism. So, just as many White Americans see themselves as the Real Americans, so also many White Westerners see themselves as the Real Westerners. Therefore most of Latin America and Africa do not and can never count as Western.
That means that for many, “Western civilization” and “Westerners” are just a way of saying “White people” without saying “White people”.
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I think that is the way it is used in East and SE Asia.
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@abagond
“Japan I see as part Western”—Why only part?
I am beginning to see Japan as increasingly west or I should just say west. Mainly because of the ideas and way of life that I am seeing.
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Even if the West were to accept them, Turkey and Indonesia would not want to be “Western”—Japan, in terms of its foreign policy is a useful puppet of the U.S. but domestically, the are very proud of being “Japanese”—not Western.
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Liberal principles vs Western values—Because of the vagueness of the term “Western Values” it can be used to analyze some of the unsaid presumptions upon which many of the Western conduct and paradigm is based…..The term liberal principles, while still diverse…can be reduced to the core principles of Equality and Liberty…IMO, the articulation of these principles in the Western tradition is incomplete (and therefore leads to injustice/imbalance). The presumptions that (I think) these principles are based upon are individualism (supremacy of the individual and his reason) and equality of opportunity.
One of the core paradigm or metanarrative of “Western Values” is the idea that some people are more entitled than others and this can be seen in the concept of the Divine right of kings, in the Magna Carta and in how the ideas of “liberty and equality” were understood and implemented, particularly in the early period of U.S. history….The paradigm is one of Hierarchy—not Equality(all human beings are of equivalent worth).
So…for example, In Western/Libralism— the idea of “representation” is spoken of and confined to, the concept of —the opportunity to vote. In other words, the responsibility to equality ends when all people have the right to vote.
But if understood under the light of Equality as equivalent human worth(and the related concept of the right to human dignity)—then it is not enough to have the opportunity, representation must be systemic—that is, being equal stakeholders in the whole society/nation.
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@ Anon
“Even if the West were to accept them, Turkey and Indonesia would not want to be “Western”.
I don’t know anything about Indonesia, but Turkey was ruled until the Nineties by an elite that wanted very much to be Western.
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Yes, but in terms of influence—it would not have gained much, on the other hand, with Islam rising in China and Russia as well as the former Soviet countries–Turkey can expand its soft power
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@ Kiwi
No—I don’t see it…Yes there was rhetoric that the EU was a “Christian only club” and such…but I don’t think Turkey was actually all that keen on the EU…and now with the economic problems of the E.U.—Turkey is probably thinking it made the right choice…..
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@ Kiwi
Turkey probably would still join the EU if they wouldn’t have to go through the painful (and somewhat humiliating) process. I listed the wish of beining part of the Western alliances as a criterium for becoming Western, but it’s certainly not sufficient. The Erdogan government (of course there are always movements to counter the official line, but he does seem to have significant support) at least emphasizes the difference, especially in foreign policy.
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@ sharinalr
Because a considerable part of their culture is non-Western, particularly their language and religion.
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@Kiwi
I don’t think Erdogan/Turkey is “anti-west”—after all, it is a part of NATO—but Turkey has begun to use its soft power more smartly. Many Russian and Chinese Muslims have Turkic ancestry, The biggest Mosque in Tokyo, the Tokyo Camii, was built by Turkic peoples….
But…Erdogan has been vocally pro-Palestine and this has angered the West….but made him hugely popular both in Turkey and on the Middle East street….I remember some time ago—in Davos or someplace when Erdogan walked off the stage in protest of Israeli hasbara….It was seen by many in the Middle East street as a courageous person who stood upto Western hypocrisy in their face…..
Japan—Yes, Japan is “pro-American” when it comes to their foreign policy but domestically, there has always been some tension about the U.S. bases and nuclear warships docking on those ports….as well as the participation of SDF soldiers in American adventures such as Iraq, Afghanistan and piracy in the Indian Ocean…
There may be another aspect?—The American “pivot” to Asia…..considering American misadventures in South America and the Middle East—it is likely that this idiotic “pivot” policy is going to create a mess in this region if allowed…if that happens…then the economies in this region will suffer—which means poverty and destabilization……not pretty for those of us who live here….
There have already been tensions regarding various border disputes—Diplomacy and compromise will be better for our future than war—if we can only keep those crazy Americans from interfering!!!…..
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My wife is Ukrainian. She is from the far east of Ukraine. This means she is much closer to Russian in culture. The media paints one side of the story as “bad Russia” and “good Ukraine” but what is left out is that current Ukrainian leadership only wants the land that is being fought over in eastern Ukraine. They are not interested in its people. They are systematically killing those who do not flee back to Russia even though some of them have lived in Ukraine for multiple generations.
I abhor US world political involvement. The rampant capitalistic manipulation and corruption is horrendous. The US military is the worlds “thug”. And the media covers it all up. Even supposed liberal media. It hurts my heart to get into a fight with my father because he is so anti-Russia (due to his upbringing) when my wife cries herself to sleep every night praying her parents are not bombed to death (because they are too proud to leave their home). We are forcing our belief system and “ideals” on other cultures and thus stamping them out…extinction.
My problem with America currently is that we, as a system, are blind to the terrible things we are doing as a world power. Our eyes are closed to how we are hurting others. We, as individuals, are not bad people. Making major changes is difficult. Caring much beyond our own personal problems is really hard.
Your analysis of “ethnocentric” and “morally blind” terms is close minded to that you are only applying it to Western belief when there are people guilty of this in every view or political influence.
The problem is when belief turns into oppression. People or countries or societies or enthicities should be free to believe whatever they want so long as they are not infringing on someone else’s right to the same thing. America doing harm to other countries and cultures in the name of “protecting our freedoms” is hogwash and kills my feelings of patriotism because I see through the smoke.
So, I guess what I am saying is I agree with a lot of what you are saying but perhaps from a different perspective.
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