On Monday November 24th 2014 in the US, the grand jury of St Louis County said it would not charge Darren Wilson with a crime. Wilson is the White police officer who gunned down Michael Brown in broad daylight and let his body lie there in the street for four hours. Brown was 18 and unarmed. This was in Ferguson, Missouri, a mostly Black township in suburban St Louis. Nights of violence between police and protesters followed and 108 days of protest.
The grand jury made its decision in the afternoon, but Bob McCulloch, the county prosecutor, waited till nightfall to make it public.
President Obama not long after suddenly appeared on television coast to coast, a rare move for him. He supported the call of Brown’s parents for calm – but not their call for a law that would require police to wear cameras.
Ferguson burned. The police protected the White side of town while allowing businesses on the Black side to be robbed and burned. At least 12 buildings were on fire. Most protesters, though, were peaceful. At two in the morning the police held a press conference. They blamed protesters for tearing apart “the fabric of the community”.
There were protests in other cities, like New York and Oakland.
Grand juries do not determine guilt, but whether to indict: to charge a crime and move to trial. Grand juries only hear one side of the story – the prosecutor’s.
Grand juries rarely indict police officers. For example, from 2008 to 2012, grand juries in Dallas, Texas heard 81 cases of police shootings – but brought only one indictment. That is not surprising: county prosecutors and district attorneys are dependent on the police.
In the Darren Wilson case, it seems McCulloch had certain eyewitnesses cast as liars. Meanwhile, Wilson was apparently given time to come up with a story that reasonably fit the scientifically known facts and favourable eyewitness testimony.
Even though Wilson was an armed, trained police officer, he was still able to persuade the grand jury that he probably had good reason to fear for his life.
Wilson appealed to the Black Brute stereotype:
“He looked up at me and had the most aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked.”
“When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan. That’s just how big he felt and how small I felt just from grasping his arm.”
Brown was an inch (3cm) taller than Wilson, but weighed about 38% more.
The moment before Wilson shot Michael Brown dead:
“At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots. Like it was making him mad that I’m shooting at him. And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn’t even there, I wasn’t even anything in his way.”
How to get away with murder.
See also:
Meanwhile (as cited on Zerohedge today), “In the 107 days since officer Darren Wilson shot and killed 18 year old Michael Brown – 12:03pm, Saturday, August 9th – the following stupidity has taken place in Chicago:
155 homicides (74% black males)
725 shot & wounded
Six (6) 18 year olds killed: Kawantis Montgomery, Kamaal Burton, Tony McIntos, Alexandra Burgos, Rayvon Little, Johnathan Cartwright
59 18 year olds shot & wounded
29 teenagers (13-19) killed
244 teenagers (13-19) shot and wounded
10 shot (5 killed) by the CPD”
Yes, that’s a person shot about every 3 hours and more than 1 person killed every day…
Yet Chicago is controlled by liberals, so the hundreds of young black men killed there every year hardly matter.
Let us continue to grieve for Ferguson and the martyrdom of the Gentle Giant!
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The Hoax picture is a new low. What scum of the Earth committed this Hoax?
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@ biff @ George
The heart of the issue is not the tragedy of Brown’s death or that his killer was White, but that he is being allowed to get away with murder. The same with the Trayvon Martin case. Something that seems to be way more common in White-on-Black murders, especially when the killer is a cop.
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I look at these Ferguson images, and the words that come immediately to mind are “self immolation”. The ability to hurt one’s own self (community) to prove that another is wrong defies my logic.
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I’m sorry but the protesters messed this up. Ferguson is a town of only 20K people. 60% of them are black and many are old people and children. That’s simply not enough people for this type of destruction.
I wouldn’t be surprised if agent provocateurs were involved. I’m sure mentally unbalanced and criminals were also attracted. The real protesters should have vetted who they had more carefully instead of joining with any random Tom, Dick and Harry. The riots happened too fast for that to simply be spontaneous. Now the black people of Ferguson are screwed by who they let in to their communities. The black people of Ferguson didn’t vote and simply disenfranchised themselves more.
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@ George
Same-race police officers would help, but the main issue is that the police are unaccountable to the Blacks they supposedly “serve and protect”. Mostly because Whites block or water down any move in that direction, like civilian review boards. Whites still have a slave-patrol mindset.
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@ Aba: You could flesh this out a bit more and talk about how it was around 37 states and over 100 cities who had planned and executed response protests. Even a couple of cities in Canada got into it. You might want to mention how freeways, highways, major intersections and the like in major cities were Shut Down by protesters. It was kinda HUGE and the momentum continues.
@biff: you act like people and coalitions and grass roots orgs and local politicians and activists haven’t been working for decades to solve those problems in their own communities for DECADES in cities like Chicago nationwide. Also, people can do more than one thing at once; for example march in a protest at night then go attend a NAN meeting the next day working to end violence in communities.
Also, if you think what’s been happening in Ferguson for the past 100+ days & the reaction to the expected non-indictment is only about one cop, one police dept, one city or one state then you’ve missed something vital. Mike Brown’s murder was the spark that ignited a community’s youth that has already with other coalitions like I mentioned taken this country’s systemic ills to the Global community – or did you miss them testifying to the UN in Geneva last week?
Yes, those things you mentioned are horrible, but I’m tired of people pretending – exercising willful ignorance IMO – that nobody is or has been fighting on those fronts. Just because parts of the revolution are not being televised doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
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@ TeddyBearSniffer
Not sure who started it, but Larry Elder helped to spread it:
http://www.snopes.com/info/news/wilson.asp
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@Awake BW, yet only 12% of millennials voted in the last election. That doesn’t seem like much hunger for change.
And why hasn’t anyone brought up agent provocateurs yet? If you are in any sort of “movement” and don’t know what that is then don’t be surprised when your movement is destroyed.
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George:
abagond believes that, even though the majority of witnesses backed up officer Wilson’s account of events, and charges would normally NOT be filed in such cases, no matter what races of people were involved, that a full jury trial still should have been had, EVEN IF the end result would still be a full acquittal, with likely more loss of life and property damage than we are witnessing now.
However, as Awake BM has eloquently stated, “if you think what’s been happening in Ferguson for the past 100+ days & the reaction to the expected non-indictment is only about one cop, one police dept, one city or one state then you’ve missed something vital.” Translation: the facts of this case don’t really matter. This is an opportunity for blacks to vent against perceived racism and for the leftist MSM to try to energize non-white voters to turn out in the 2014 mid-term elections. Unfortunately, none of that worked out very well for them… but time is on their side…
I expect we’ll get another manufactured controversy in the next year or two. I just hope next time they can pick a dude who is not a violent criminal and drug user… shouldn’t be that hard, right, with all the evil white dudes killing people?
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abagond said:
Ferguson burned. The police protected the White side of town while allowing businesses on the Black side to be robbed and burned. At least 12 buildings were on fire. Most protesters, though, were peaceful. At two in the morning the police held a press conference. They blamed protesters for tearing apart “the fabric of the community”.
Do you think that this is because they didnt think that black people would damage other black peoples propertys? Do you think that they perhaps went to protect the white side because notoriously in such matters, non black people become targets?
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@ biff @ George
Right. I agree with Awake. Most people who are upset about the Michael Brown case have seen or heard about this sort of thing over and over again. I must have at least a dozen posts on cases like it. I could probably do one a week, but it would be too depressing. Some of them catch fire, like Trayvon Martin, but most do not.
When I did my first post on Trayvon Martin I had no idea it would blow up – but when I heard the recordings of the emergency phone calls a week or so later, I knew it would.
Likewise, at first I was NOT going to do a post on Michael Brown because I had just done one on Eric Garner. Because the Garner case had video, it seemed like a clearer-cut case – but then protests helped to push Michael Brown into the news headlines. You can thank the boneheadedness of McCulloch and the courage of the young people in Ferguson for that. It was that same mix that pushed Selma into national news nearly 50 years ago.
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Take white police entirely out of black neighborhoods. Problem solved.
Why do predominately black communities have white police forces anyways?
Interesting question – would there be enough PoC in the police force to patrol predominantly black areas?
It also raises an interesting perspective that perhaps George you feel that this could happen again from a white officer to a black adolescent – why is that?
If these are genuine and valid instances why the risk aversion?
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George Ryder said:
“Take white police entirely out of black neighborhoods. Problem solved.
Why do predominately black communities have white police forces anyways?”
As I mentioned earlier, this was basically tried in Detroit with less than sterling results.
In Ferguson, the old guard police folks are still in place. They are not ready to join in white flight so quickly (like the rest of Ferguson basically did), because they will lose benefits. However, I think many will leave now. The section 8 people who moved to Ferguson don’t have a lot of very qualified potential policemen in their midst. However, I guess being qualified doesn’t matter that much.
I agree with you, George. Letting blacks totally police their neighborhoods, even if the people hired are objectively less qualified, will result in more black shootings and deaths, but there will be less for black people to protest about. Not many protests in Detroit or and $1 houses all over.
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@ Omnipresent
I think it is way worse than that. The fact that McCulloch waited till night – but not till the next day when the National Guard would arrive in force – meant that he WANTED a riot, or was hoping for one. The police helped in that by pulling back from the very part of Ferguson that was the epicentre of the worst violence last August.
It was McCulloch who came up with the idea of putting out that shoplifting video right after they made Darren Wilson’s name public. Fox News ate it up. Distraction is his part of his bag of tricks.
Had he made the grand jury decision public at, say, three o’clock, like you would expect, that would have given cable news seven to nine hours where it would be the only thing they would talk about, and it would be the top story on the evening news. By doing it at eight and doing nothing to prevent a riot, they helped to draw attention away from it.
I am not going to go so far as to suggest that they helped to set some of the fires, but I would not be shocked if they did.
Maybe in a week or so when I am less bitter about the whole thing, I will think what I just wrote is laughable, but it is what I think right now.
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@ George @ Biff
One Black town I lived in had a mostly Black police force. The police NEVER stopped me. Not once. It was one of the safest places I ever lived.
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George Ryder
You asked that question twice (just reworded it) and it was answered the first time.
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Cleveland OH’s police force is 44% black. The police chief is black and the mayor is black. (Cleveland is 53% black).
Ferguson is a very small town. I personally don’t believe it was the young people of Ferguson who pushed Brown into media attention. Plenty of people with various agendas came into Ferguson. I honestly believe the police (and others higher up) wanted the riots because it “validates” them. How else do “rioters” get a hold of a police car if the police don’t want it? You can then justify Marshall law. At the same time I think the real peaceful protesters should have been more organized, vetted who was there better, and not let the rioters, whoever they may have been, take over. They had how many months to do so?
I am sorry but protesting almost never accomplished anything or it backfires. Check out Occupy Wallstreet or Arab Spring. And according to the election the vast majority of Americans, especially young Americans, are politically apathetic. Meanwhile Black people (and others) are being more economically disenfranchised yet instead we focus on Michael Brown. We might bash the right and tea partiers but they are at least organized and vote.
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I wanted to share this link as some in here have no real idea of the duty of a grand jury and happily peddle this information as if it is fact.
http://grandjuryresistance.org/grandjuries.html
Grand juries are not nor have they ever taken on the duty of deciding guilt or innocence. Nor do they operate as a normal jury does. So just because the Grand Jury made the choice not to indict does not mean they did it because the “evidence” showed him as innocent or not a murder.
Also many of the witnesses actually only corroborate the fight in the car. Which they did not fully see what happened in the car. As to outside the car they all say he turned around and was walking towards Wilson who opened fire. So the many witnesses who corroborated Wilson fully is a false statement as well. As to news outlets takes I have read some who made note of the inconsistency of the witnesses.
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Maybe these rioters and protestors need to go live in Nigeria, Mexico or Egypt for a year in order to appreciate all the safe guards, and checks and balances put in place to support justice in this country.
A U.S passport has value for a good reason. Black people need to figure out what that reason is.
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americanasanguine
The problem is whether or not there is a worthy candidate to vote for. Most if not all politicians lie and will say anything to get the untapped gold of voters. While voting is nice it is not a guarantee and they may see it as finding themselves stuck with same ole or worse. They could take steps to have the corrupt individual to be removed, but that step may be much harder if that is a step possibility at all.
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Abagond, have you not written about the prosecutor’s extremely troubling past yet? He’s from a family of cops, whose father was killed on duty by a black man, and who himself always wanted to be a cop. And this isn’t the first Grand Jury he’s managed to not indict, despite the fact they should have.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-prosecutor-has-faced-controversy-for-decades/article_cdd4c104-6086-506e-9ee8-aa957a31fee5.html
When confronted about the wrongs of that Grand Jury, and the murders: “These guys were bums”.
There’s lots more about him, but think about it for a moment. The prosecuter in charge of this was so pro-cops it is laughable. Five minuets of research will show anyone that he should NOT have handled this. Even if a wolf IS a friend of lambs, that’s not what anybody is gonna see. And he wasn’t a friend of lambs.
Also, please note that in this grand jury trial, they removed any references to the “robbery” when Wilson witnessed. Because that has been shown to be not true. But remember who it was who released the tapes used to claim Brown was just a robber? Yep, the prosecutor in charge of this grand jury hearing. Polluting the Grand Jury pool, eh?
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Rev. Martin Luther King Jr, March 1968:
“But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the negro poor has worsened over the last twelve or fifteen years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.”
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George Ryder
@abagond
i just don’t understand why a lot of black communities have predominantly white police forces, it makes no sense at all.
——————————————————————————————–
Does it make sense that a lot of white communities have predominantly black basketball and football teams?
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Lonnie,
“I look at these Ferguson images, and the words that come immediately to mind are “self immolation”. The ability to hurt one’s own self (community) to prove that another is wrong defies my logic.”
They don’t see it as their community. They’ve been told it isn’t since the day they were born. The grand jury decision only reinforced that message.
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George:
why wouldn’t there be enough PoC to police themselves? i’m sure black people are quite capable to handle such a responsibility!
I dont know George – the way race and relations stand at the moment in the U.S I dont believe there would be many black people wanting to be recruited in to the force, do you? Also, whats with the sarcasm. Regardless of whether it is race related, there are too many black youths dieing needlessley. It is perfectly rational and reasonable for people to be in dispair about this particularly as it is being carried out by those who are supposed to serve and protect all.
take white officers out of these communities and let black officers handle it.
If your motivation for saying this is to prevent more crime happening or to at least reduce it then thats fair enough but I dont think it is. I think you are saying ‘let black people stay together and who cares what happens to them as long as its not a white person who can be accused of racism that did it’
Man, this word ‘racist’ is a very emotive word isnt it. It even makes those who appear on the surface to be rational and fair minded act in ways that could be seen as racially motivated!!!!!!
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@George Ryder
“i just don’t understand why a lot of black communities have predominantly white police forces, it makes no sense at all.”—-I personally believe it would be better to have a partner team of a white cop and black cop paroling black neighborhoods or even white ones. I feel like it would break down some prejudices on both sides and help facilitate a different point of view in regards to handling the situations.
@ Everyone
It comes down to poor training in my opinion. If you have a precinct full of racist cops teaching new cops to be just as racist then rest assure no matter the race of the cop you send in he will be bias against said race he is taught to be bias against. When this attitude goes higher up then it is a recipe for disaster. I have gotten the most polite cop treatment from black cops or old white cops. The rudest cop I ever dealt with was middle age and ego tripping the whole encounter.
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“I dont know George – the way race and relations stand at the moment in the U.S I dont believe there would be many black people wanting to be recruited in to the force, do you?”
It’s almost like something like Institutional racism is rampant within US police.
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abagond:
Had he made the grand jury decision public at, say, three o’clock, like you would expect, that would have given cable news seven to nine hours where it would be the only thing they would talk about, and it would be the top story on the evening news. By doing it at eight and doing nothing to prevent a riot, they helped to draw attention away from it.
I see. I didnt realise this.
Hopefully most people would be smart enough to want to understand the cause rather than just think it was random acts of behaviour
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@naishee
Thanks for providing that information. I knew he was from a family of cops, but was not sure how far it went beyond that.
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Sharinalr
If 9 out of 10 young adults sit on their butt instead of voting then people deserve the politicians that they get. Politicians don’t just materialize out of thin air. Older people and conservatives get this and that’s a big reason why they have so much clout. There are black areas with a majority black police force, black police chiefs and black mayors (I live in such an area).
I’m not talking of national elections with politicians with multinationals behind them. I’m talking about small town, local politics. Ferguson is a small town. Most people running for government in those situations are locals that everyone knows. If people willingly politically disenfranchise themselves they need to take some of the blame. People are mad at the police chief and the mayor but it’s the fault of the locals that they are there. If you are a physical and visible majority but let others run rough shot on you then that’s your problem.
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Biff and George, here is my perspective.
As a non-white, foreign-born resident who lives in the USA, I can honestly tell you — you white Americans are hypocrites and delusional.
America has always and will continue to be, a violent and racist country. It was founded and grew, based on racial division and violent occupation.
America is a Police State. Its not about “crime” — it’s about POWER
Most people don’t have to commit a crime. in order to be abused by a police officer. All an individual has to do, is to break the police officers Golden Rules.
I’ve treated many young black men for bruises and contusions before they went to jail. Why? because these young men forgot one of the golden rules:
“running from the police Will earn you an a’s whooping”
when I ask the arresting officers what happened, the answer is always “he fell”
The cops do not want to Run. Nothing p’isses a cop off more, than having to actually chase someone they want to “talk to”
I can also honestly say this as someone who works in the medical field. The one main thing police officers, medical professionals, firefighters, paramedics, etc share — is a certain apathy/ contempt towards human beings in general.
Why?
Because we often have to see human beings at their Worst. and in order to do our jobs effectively and efficiently, We have to learn to shut off our own feelings and emotions so we can assess, evaluate, and act.
Watching people die, scraping their bodies off the roads, trying to put their bodies back together again, etc — takes a toll on the mind and psyche.
It gets hard to maintain a sense of optimism when you work in an environment where “death” is an every day part of your Job.
Police very much stereotype people, just like we do in the medical world.
and you tend to view people as “objects”. In the hospital, we tend to label people by their condition – the kid with head wound, diabetic with the amputation, 40 year old heart attack
Familiarity breeds CONTEMPT (I personally cannot stand drug addicts)
Police have their own rules and if you think that they view racial groups in equally– then you are only fooling yourselves.
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This article was made back in August. That was plenty of time to organize and mobilize before the last election. The people of Ferguson failed to do it. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/18/3472278/this-is-the-most-important-reform-ferguson-can-enact-to-prevent-another-standoff/
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George Ryder,
“interesting that Biff listed the names of the kids killed, because we never hear about them. any time a police officer shoots a black man in a crime infested gang territory it’s automatically RACISM, we always know the name of the cop & we are always calling for their head.”
Because they aren’t held accountable. Typically, there is no need to force the justice system to prosecute black people. Do see a pattern of known black shooters going un-prosecuted?
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George@
you can think whatever you want about me & what i think but you can’t see inside my brain, but judge away…all i am saying is this, black communities should have black police forces. plain & simple, it would solve a ton of problems.
Fair enough. You are right, I dont come on here often and I dont read all your posts so I dont know. But though you acknowledge the problems do exist you are quite happy to let them continue as long as its not around you and other fellow whites? Out of sight out of mind kind of thing then – well, cant say much to that can I.
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americanasanguine
Even small town politicians can be liars and cheats. Plus the race of a politician will not guarantee he will not cheat you. Not saying they don’t take half the blame for not voting but I am not going to say there is always someone worthy to vote for.
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George Ryder,
“What does a white cop have to gain from policing a violent black neighborhood?”
A job and power. Do you think white police officers would be happy is they were barred from policing non-white communities? It would mean less jobs available to them.
But I believe most black people would agree with you. We need more black leos at all levels of law enforcement. Heck we need more blacks in positions of power everywhere. You keep ranting like afam’s are opposed to this. Why?
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“George Ryder,
another reason to keep us out of black communities right?
i sure don’t want a bunch of delusional hypocrites working my neighborhood.”
Linda says,
that’s a very dumb thing to say George… and as usual, you’re being dim and missing the point.
Do you think black policemen in black countries don’t abuse their own citizens who look just like them?!
If you want to be taken seriously, then say something that makes sense.
and by the way, YOU are not a policeman, and YOU have no power. So you are not part of the “us” that is working in the black neighborhoods.
but the one thing that would mean the difference between you getting beat up or shot by a police officer in a confrontation,
is Your white skin.
White American lives are taken more seriously by white American police officers.
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sharinalr
Never said that small town politicians can’t be liars and cheats (the Feds just came down on my city for corruption a few years ago). Democracy is not perfect, no one ever said it is. But if you only have a small minority voting (in this case the older, white, more conservative people), don’t be surprised when you are disenfranchised politically. Voting is more than just politicians, it’s also issues and bills that affect the community. (I personally think the worse thing that American voters have did isn’t any of the politicians that have been elected but the rejection of school levies since the Reagan era.)
Older white conservative people get this but too many black people don’t. If only 6% of eligible black voters are going to vote unless there is a half black president running then they deserve the government that they get.
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americanasanguine
Fair enough. I get you and I can’t argue that.
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George Ryder,
The people want this. It’s the white people in power who don’t. If you really want to understand you should read The New Jim Crowa : Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness.
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“George,
black officers in black communities, problem solved. if my white skin is what keeps me from getting killed by white cops then it should work both ways,”
Linda says,
George, I’ll say this again because dim as usual, you are missing the point.
“America is a Police State. Its not about “crime” — it’s about POWER”
and what does Power do to people, George? What happens when most people attain power George?
Do you honestly think black policemen with power won’t abuse their positions of power? Do you think black policemen don’t already abuse black people.
Are you THAT stoopid and naive????????????
This story and what is happening, is about the abuse of power by Law Enforcement, how abuse of power is used to hide corruption and abuse.
Wake the F’ck Up, dimwit!
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Linda:
that’s a very dumb thing to say George… and as usual, you’re being dim and missing the point.
George is taking this whole thing personally. It is becoming about him as a white male and not the fact that this type of tragic error is becoming all too frequent from white cop to black youth. So George’s answer is ‘well, if you think what some of my white peers do is bad, I dont want to play with you because you are being mean about them’.
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Linda:
Do you honestly think black policemen with power won’t abuse their positions of power? Do you think black policemen don’t already abuse black people.
Are you THAT stoopid and naive????????????
The point I made above to George and I still think is really the crux of what is being unsaid here is that George really doesnt care whether black on black abuse occurs. Along as the ugly spectre of white on black racism isnt there, the slaying of human beings with brown/black skin wont be on his conscience.
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I already did George and you still don’t get it
what part of me saying “America is a police state” don’t you understand.
Why are you missing point and the relationship that this statement has to your own statement about black police forces in black neighborhoods.
I agree that police forces should be diverse and reflect the people that they are serving (unlike Ferguson police force)
but that is NOT the issue and you, sir, are and continue to miss the point and the issue.
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George said this:
i know yer on a witch hunt but yer hunting the wrong guy.
Funny, and you were the one who said I was making judgements.
You mate are totally wrong. You need to look at what is being said here George mate, it isnt about you but you are MAKING it about you.
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“george,
i don’t know, there’s not a ton of examples are there? but i’d think having a police force that looks like the people who live there would have it’s benefits. perhaps it would seem like a Police State if black people weren’t pulled over constantly by white cops. just a thought.”
Linda says,
George, I come from a black/brown country where our Policemen, are the same Ethnicity/race of the people they serve.
and the police Abuse their Power and there is still a lot of police brutality.
Why? because they can and they have the “law” to protect them.
That’s why I keep saying to you that it is about Power.
I Mexico, there is alot of police corruption and abuse…. who do you think is abusing the brown skinned people, George? Other brown skinned people who wear a uniform and are sworn to protect and serve.
That’s why I called you Naive.
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sparkle86,
Excellent quote.
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George:
i haven’t made it about me at all, it’s you who are making this about me.
You have but you chose or really dont understand to see why and in how many ways you have made it about you. Think about your tone when you write George, or maybe you dont and what happens is your underlying feelings come out.
you’re the one jumping to conclusions about what’s going on in my head cause yer on a witch hunt dude.
You just did the same to me – I have no reason to be hunting you down like a witch slayer. No reason at all. This is not a tit for tat George. This is about young life that is too frequently being snuffed out needlessly.
& i don’t blame you, you need to root out the enemy & i understand this.
Well, thats mighty white of you. I know from this you think I am a PoC with an axe to grind – I think I will let you carry on thinking this and feeling good about taking one for the team in enabling me to have a go at you -SMH
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@George Ryder
“what does a black community stand to gain from a predominantly white police force?”—I live in a black neighborhood in which if I called the police a white cop will respond. Of the times I have had to call for musical disturbances I have had little or no issue with the cop. So the issue is not so much about skin color so much as it is about poor trained cops power tripping.
“what does a black community stand to gain from a black police force?”—The same thing they would from a white police force if said cops are properly trained and are not on a power. The neighboring city in my area has primarily black police force and they are all good too.
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I’m not trying to win George…
I’m trying to get you to THINK
wouldn’t be reasonable to think that if we live in a Police State that operates based on LAWs
that the LAWs need to be changed so that Abuse and Corruption are not protected by the Law.
.
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The neighboring city is not primarily black either as it is fairly mixed.
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“The police protected the White side of town while allowing businesses on the Black side to be robbed and burned”—-Wow was not aware that this did happen. Sad. If they were actually going to do damage perhaps it should have been to the “justice” buildings.
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George:
once again, you’ve made your character judgment fairly clear.
thanks for voicing your opinion, it’s noted, carry on!
Oh dear, poor misunderstood George. No need to be a martyr mate,- I can say what the hell I like and you can chose to misunderstand it but there seem to be others who also seem to think you are being obtuse so there must be something wrong with how you are coming across in that case.
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“At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots. Like it was making him mad that I’m shooting at him. And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn’t even there, I wasn’t even anything in his way.”—At this point I think Brown was hit so bad that he was likely showing the pain of the hits in his face.
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@Omnipresent
I have told him that before and he took it as some “critiquing” of him. Though I don’t it is an act so much as willful. At any rate I just learned to let him have his opinion. That is all you can do.
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“George,
but that still doesn’t change that communities should be policed by people who have a vested interest in protecting them. this seems reasonable to me.”
Linda says,
I agree. The police force should reflect the people they serve. If a town is 30% white/ 70% black like Ferguson, then the police force should reflect that percentage and be multiracial.
but race alone, will not solve the problem of police abuse because power corrupts.
Policemen need to be annually assessed and re-trained to remind them that their “vested” interest should BE to protect and serve.
because, unfortunately many of them forget
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*I don’t think it is*
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the POTUS is really dropping the ball on this. This stuff is happening on his watch. History might treat him even less kindly than Booker T.
@GR,
You’re acting a bit obtuse again. But I suspect that it is not on purpose (unlike that B*ff character).
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“Black people know what cannot be said. What clearly cannot be said is that the events of Ferguson do not begin with Michael Brown lying dead in the street, but with policies set forth by government at every level. What clearly cannot be said is that the people of Ferguson are regularly plundered, as their grandparents were plundered, and generally regarded as a slush-fund for the government that has pledged to protect them. What clearly cannot be said is the idea of superhuman black men who “bulk up” to run through bullets is not an invention of Darren Wilson, but a staple of American racism.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/barack-obama-ferguson-and-the-evidence-of-things-unsaid/383212/
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t any rate I just learned to let him have his opinion. That is all you can do.
I am not trying to stop him having an opinion. I just wish he would be honest about it and own it. He is a grown man (I assume) and he is entitled to say what he thinks.
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George:
i can’t control how i come across. i write as clearly as my abilities allow & i thought i expressed myself quite clear.
Maybe, but people other than me are coming to the same conculsion. Now, I am not the best or most articulate person so if it was just me I would get it but its not so somethings up.
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The conversation of racism can’t go any further until people recognize the truth of this statement:
“The genre of Obama race speeches have always been bounded by the job he was hired to do. Specifically, Barack Obama is the president of the United States of America. More specifically, Barack Obama is the president of a congenitally racist country, erected upon the plunder of life, liberty, labor, and land. This plunder has not been exclusive to black people. But black people, the community to which both Michael Brown and Barack Obama belong, have the distinct fortune of having survived in significant numbers. For a creedal country like America, this poses a problem—in nearly every major American city one can find a population of people whose very existence, whose very history, whose very traditions, are an assault upon this country’s nationalist instincts. Black people are the chastener of their own country. Their experience says to America, “You wear the mask.””
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/barack-obama-ferguson-and-the-evidence-of-things-unsaid/383212/
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Omnipresent
I get you, but the result will be similar to white woman tears. 😉
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George
& so the witch hunt continues.
Stop being a F00kin muppet. What the frig do I have to gain by hunting you on this blog? I think you are not being honest about understanding that the issue of race cannot be resolved by ‘segregating’ aspects of society – thats it. You have said I am wrong but, in what you write, I am trying hard to see how.
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“What clearly cannot be said is that violence and nonviolence are tools, and that violence—like nonviolence—sometimes works. “Property damage and looting impede social progress,” Jonathan Chait wrote Tuesday. He delivered this sentence with unearned authority. “Property damage and looting” has been the most effective tool of social progress for white people in America. It describes everything from enslavement to Jim Crow laws to lynching to red-lining.”
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/barack-obama-ferguson-and-the-evidence-of-things-unsaid/383212/
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@solesearch
Thanks for the articles. I will read and comment further on it.
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Linda
Linda says,
I agree. The police force should reflect the people they serve. If a town is 30% white/ 70% black like Ferguson, then the police force should reflect that percentage and be multiracial.
—————————————————————————————–
If the town is 10% preteen children should 10% of the police officers be preteen children?
If the town is 55% female should 55% of the police officers be female?
Where are you going with this logic?
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Let me qualify what I am saying here. Just because the race of the police force reflects the race of the populace in certain areas, it doesnt prevent people from these ‘segregated’ areas going to other districts where the police force is primarily white. If the root cause of why these deaths keep happening is not dealt with, PoC will never be able to leave their own neighborghoods
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@George Ryder
You don’t see a problem with your need to constantly try to call someone a b*tch or it’s derivative?
Shows me that you feel as if you are the only one entitled to their opinion.
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Thwack,
F’ck off and don’t address me.
George might be innocently clueless but you are an intentional a’s.
Miss me with ALL your BS and do NOT call my name, mention my posts, or address me.
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@ George
If you are going to continue to call me a b*tch or it’s derivative then you may want to familiarize yourself with the comment policy as it is likely continued violation will get your comments deleted and then you banned.
You are acting like what you are calling me, even though I have called you no names. And you might want to read Abagond’s post on white woman tears to know what it is.
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GR,
It is not the expression of your words to state your points, it is more along the lines of
– stating something really off the mark, or beside the point.
For example, if we are looking for ways to eliminate the risk of bird flu to humans, one can advocate that we simply stop eating all poultry products and stop raising any poultry or avian species. THAT would solve it. OK, the words expressed are clear enough, but DUH, (looks like being intentionally obtuse, but in your case, I think you have no idea).
– your comprehension skills; it might partially be due to the thick lens you are wearing. By the time stuff goes through the optic nerve to the brain, reality has been distorted.
That is why I think you might be blind to your own obtuseness.
Can’t say the same thing about some of the other commenters.
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@George Ryder
Then I will respond accordingly to the comment policy.
@ Abagond
I will like all of George’s comments calling me a b*sh a derivative of B*tch deleted. As it does violate comment policy.
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@George Ryder
And another thing. Do not blame me or anyone for you ability to play on white woman’s tears. Own it.
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A little civility would be nice.
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@Mack Lyons (@DDSSBlog)
I can do that, but I can not control anyone else’s ability to respond in an emotional manner to any and everything.
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George,
I guess the problem I have with your statement is that as Jefe, says — brings about a “Duh” moment
your solution is a valid one but it doesn’t solve the problem — it sort of skates over the real “crux” of the problem
Depending on the size of the city, Some police officers, no matter what race, often times don’t even live in the neighborhoods they work in. So, they have no emotional connection to the people.
All people who live in America are effected by race and stereotypes, no escape. Black officers beat up black young men that they perceive as “thugs or criminals” and they are affected by the same stereotypes that their white co-workers are affected by.
Christopher Darner – he is a living example of a black police officer that lived by the “police officers” code and when it bit him personally in the a’s —
he felt betrayed
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I am not sure if I heard this correctly or read it correctly but it was said to be a precinct in the area that was very corrupt with racism. I am curious on how that ended up being dismantled.
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@GR,
Others suggested you were acting obtuse here before I did. I remember that whole discussion about “whiteness” and how you were acting obtuse, but I realize that you were probably not willful. You just see the world that way.
If you think it is my “personal” lens, then everyone else must be wearing that lens too.
Bird Flu is a recurring problem and health scare where I live. Once they killed every single live chicken in the territory. Now, no live bird is allowed to live in any market overnight. They all must be culled on the same day. Those are some of the solutions that people came up with. But no one advocated that halting the importation of chicken and duck and quail was “a possible solution … that could lead to positive results”. No one denied it, but no one advocated it either. That would have been obtuse.
People tried their kindest and considerate best to explain the obtuseness to you, but if you insist upon not visiting the optometrist, I don’t there is much that can be done.
Ferguson reminds me SO MUCH of where I grew up and the police system there. But the Ferguson of today is like how that place was 20-25 years ago. It was exactly the same situation, suburban areas that had previously been almost all white but had over a couple of decades become majority black, but with a white police force. I think police get their kicks from terrorizing people, and they know they can get away with it if they are white and their terrorist targets are black. Sometimes they can get away with it if their targets are Latinos or Asians too. But there are problems with the law enforcement system in general, and hiring more blacks will not really solve the crux of the problem.
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Linda said:
Thank you Linda for a breath of fresh air realism.
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@George Ryder
I was not talking to you. If you were baited it was because you are an emotional wreck who takes everything as some personal attack towards you. It was not some big slam at you, but look how it applies to you even when you shun it as not doing so. Jefe and other pointed out something in you that they saw as an unintentional part of your personality and you are offended by it instead of looking at it for what it is.
The crux of white women’s tears is just that. Instead of seeing and owning up to a problem making it about “poor me” “you all are mean” “you all are judging me”.
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sharinalr
.@ Abagond
I will like all of George’s comments calling me a b*sh a derivative of B*tch deleted. As it does violate comment policy.
——————————————————————————————
Indeed, and I would like Sharina’s comments about my testes deleted; as it does violate comment policy.
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@George Ryder
Tada
I never said it was not about you. I just said I was not talking to you. So what is your big beef now? “It is your fault for talking to omnipresent about me?”
It is something I noticed in you and so I agreed with Omni. As is my right. If you are going to get mad about it then whose fault is that? It was/is not as serious as you are making it. So really why are you making it as if I spit in your face, punched your grandma, or kicked you in the ballz?
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“George @linda
another solution is requiring officers to have cameras on their person at all times. i have no idea why this isn’t all law after everything we’ve seen.”
Linda says,
I agree. Cameras would help to bring back the “trust” factor
this would be one law change that would be a positive step in the right direction.
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@Legion,
Yes, Linda’s comment was a breath of fresh air.
Seeing what is happening in HK is disturbing me multifold. IT is starting to look more and more like the USA. So far, it is not as bad as the USA because of the weak ineffective leadership, but with a more functional administrative bureaucracy.
But the police have shown their bad side here and a whole generation will be permanently disillusioned. But it helps to show clearly the function of the police in the society. It has never been about protecting people’s rights.
In the USA, it is as if blacks were political dissidents that need to be marginalized, or even killed, to maintain the order of the State.
That order, is, well, based on white supremacy. It is like having one party rule.
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Legion, I do my best 🙂
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Yeah cameras probably would help.
The power of social media has helped bring this problem to the forefront. It is like it laid dormant for decades (ie, there, but not noticed or reported) until people can take a photo shot and share with millions of people.
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I agree with the body cameras and some areas seem to be carrying this out, but it definitely needs to be widespread. For those areas that utilize it then I am curious on what it has in place to ensure these body cams are not tampered with. What are to consequences for it being shut off.
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@George
“because you’re coupling me with white women’s tears & i find that insulting ok?”—Then I am going to guess you have no real clue what white women’s tears mean and as such I think you should read and gather an understanding. It is not about you being a woman or woman like. If you find yourself calling a person a B on such nonsense centered around your misunderstanding then you might want to check yourself before trying to check another. Until then I am done.
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@Sharina,
We also need to have every citizen have the right to record every single encounter with the police as well. If police are found tampering with the citizen’s right to record that encounter, then all evidence against that person can be thrown out.
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i may be obtuse but i can follow the flow of a thread just fine…
@ George Ryder
No actually, you are not capable of following ideas, “just fine”. I just went through the scroll. In specific I went through Linda’s first comment to you and Biff and then the subsequent back and forth.
It’s quite a thing that you said the following:
the point you are making is white cops don’t value black lives right?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to reach that conclusion if one can follow the ideas that Linda presented. Ideas which were straightforward.
George you do not know how to follow the thread “just fine”.
—————————————————————————————-
(Furthermore, how can it be that one would lack the intuitive sense to understand that Power can and will corrode the psyche of black police officers too. How could someone not understand such a basic thing as that!? Also, putting aside intuition, it’s long been an intellectual current of thought that police should live in the same communities they police–be of the same class. That last point is not crazy far out leftist theory, I think it’s pretty hum-drum common sense understanding.)
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@jefe
That brings to mind google glasses or any type of wearable camera for citizens that can be easily activated in situations without much hassle. When pulling out the phone to record it takes a bit of time to find that camera feature etc. and allows for one to miss something.
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Though there is another problem that I am unsure how to address or can be addressed. In some cases there has been clear video footage. Either from security cameras or what not and cops have still gotten off scott free. So what solution can be in place when evidence is there and the system refuses to prosecute their own?
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@George
“we were having a perfectly civil conversation & you just had to throw that in their to antagonize me & incite a response.”—-This is just another way for you not to take responsibility for your own uncontrollable behavior. Read and understand white women’s tears. Very eye opening.
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George
I think I’m just gonna skip your responses to me. You are wasting peoples time.
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“Legion, It’s quite a thing that you said the following:
the point you are making is white cops don’t value black lives right?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to reach that conclusion if one can follow the ideas that Linda presented. Ideas which were straightforward.
George @Legion take that up with Linda because i’m quoting her LOL.
looks like you need some help following the flow of this thread. ”
Linda says,
Then George, let me Correct you with the quickness then.
No, the point of my original post was NOT about “white cops not valuing black live” —
my statement: White American lives are taken more seriously by white American police officers.” — was in “addition” to my Main Point and a statement about American institutional values
My MAIN point (which passed by you like a fart in the wind), is that:
America is a police State and the main problem have with law enforcement, is law enforcements Abuse of their about POWER
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correction on last sentence:
is about law enforcements Abuse of their POWER
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@George Ryder
Like I said read the post and understand it. It is obvious you don’t with the question you asked me.
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@George Ryder
No, the question you asked is a clear sign that you do not have a clue in hell what white women’s tears means. Again I urge you to read it and ask questions for clarity. At this point it appears you never even read it.
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@George
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I have never seen this Hoax Picture before, and I have read quite a lot about the case. But what I have read several times in respectable news outlets: Brown was shot in the back or Brown kneed on the floor and had his arms up in the air when he was shot
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@Erik Sieven
because you have not seen it does not mean it does not exist. The outlet that was circulating it circulated a lot of false pictures and information. conservative something dot com I believe.
As to the remainder of what you said the witnesses actually stated some of what you said. None stated he was shot in the back and as of yet have not read one that said he kneed on the floor. Perhaps you can share those sources.
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@ George
I deleted three comments where you call Sharina a b***.
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@ George
If you continue to call commenters any form of the word “bitch”, you will be banned.
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@ naishee
Back in August I did a post on the prosecutor and his troubling past:
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George Ryder,
No, the fake Darren Wilson injury picture was not just a “social media hoax”. It was a fake on top of a fake. The whole thing started with the “orbital blowout fracture of the eye socket” nonsense started by Jim Hoft who runs the far rightwing blog Gateway pundit. It speard like wildfire through the rest of the rightwing nutjob media, including Fox, then the Washington Post and even was mentioned CNN before it was debukned .
It was an obvious fraud and was throughly debunked by Charles Johnson and the Little Green Footballs blog almost immediately before the the rest of the media finally caught up.
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WTF is it with the misogyny in the comments on this blog recently?
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@ George
My bad. Let me know if you still have trouble.
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This is the fifth police shooting that McCulloch has brought before a grand jury. The other four cases did not return an indictment either.
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abagond
Which says a lot. Says Even More About Who Let Him Take on this case to begin with.
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@ Buddhu
Its just George & Thwack trolling more or less. The few bad apples & such.
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abagond
@ naishee
Back in August I did a post on the prosecutor and his troubling past:
——————————————————————————————
I don’t know if this counts as “troubling”; but this link says his father, a police officer, was shot an killed by a black kidnapping suspect. Bob Mcculloch was 12 years old at the time.
Was the suspect ever caught? I can understand how such a tragic event could make a person “tough on crime”; even zealous.
In addition, he had one of his legs amputated at the hip due to bone cancer at the age of 17.
I would like to no more about the death of his father; specifically if the suspect was caught, tried, convicted, and what punishment he received.
Because if his dads killer is “still out there”, it could result in some interesting compensatory psychological behaviors presenting in his interactions with criminal suspects?
http://www.laduenews.com/society/charities-nonprofits/persons-of-interest-bob-mcculloch/article_eee9cc68-8a2a-11e1-9517-0019bb30f31a.html
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Boom
Bingo,
Just what I thought; its not clear his father was killed by a black suspect:
https://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/killed-robert-mccullochs-father
Anytime a police officer/soldier is killed in a gun battle with multiple shooters; its always possible they were shot by one of their own.
Its commonly known as “friendly fire”; but Ive coined a term for the cover up that may follow:
The “Pat Tillman Effect.”
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There was a call for McCulloch to be removed from the proceedings. Gov Nixon said no, he stays. It wasn’t as if people didn’t know what time it was with that guy.
Putting Black cops into a system that is corrupt, broken and steeped in upholding white supremacy does absolutely nothing. Some of you might want to go reread Christopher Dorner’s manifesto. Or read about the STL cop who they did manage to get arrested and jailed – he killed no one – and yeah he’s Black.
The system at it’s core and at it’s source needs to be changed. Do I think it even can be at this point? I have no idea. But throwing Black cops around to darken up the demographics of nearly all-white law enforcement departments isn’t the way to go IMO. Maybe later after significant changes have been made; an overhaul, a tear down and rebuild. But right now as things stand? No.
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@ All
Blog posts on this subject that I know of by commenters:
Pumpkin:
https://blacknotwhitedippedinchocolate.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/grand-jury-has-spoken-officer-darren-wilson-will-face-any-charges-time-to-go-back-to-africa/
Awake BW:
BrothaWolf:
https://brothawolf.wordpress.com/2014/11/25/no-indictment/
Shady Grady:
http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2014/11/ferguson-grand-jury-indictment.html
Strange Fruit:
http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/2014/11/no-indictment-for-darren-wilson-in.html
La Reyna (the most recent of several):
http://httpjournalsaolcomjenjer6steph.blogspot.com/2014/11/darren-wilson-i-did-my-job-no-way.html
Mack Lyons:
http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2014/11/michael-brown.html
If you have written a post – or know of one by a commenter that I missed – feel free to add a link in this thread.
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@Legion re: your response to GR
Stuff gets filtered through this very thick lens that he is wearing, and a lot gets filtered out or changed along the way. But he doesn’t realize it most of the time, so I cannot say he is being willfully obtuse. I don’t know what would help him. What do you say to someone who says he sees a dog when he is looking at a pig?
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I would like to know how many white guys on this blog have lived with a Black family? how many white guys on this blog have lived within a Black community? I have and i am white and i also have the privilege of looking like every other white guy and guess what, i get to hear all there racist shit. Today my own family made racist comment after racist comment and it hurt, because if i even try to give my opinion they say they don’t want to talk about racism, that is unless i agreed with them and then we can talk all night long about stuff they know nothing about. I am so ashamed of my Mom, she was the very reason we lived with a Black family, her second husband was Black and she is now back to being just another racist like the rest of the family. They don’t go around using the N word but they like to generalize and they never ever see the truth and only see what many whites with ignorant blinders on and with completely ZERO knowledge of the Black community like to spout. that is not an opinion that is an assumption, that is willful ignorance and bigotry.
I work in Black communities every week, I am in their homes for 3 to 5 hours at a time. I lived in a white and Black blended family for 5 years of my youth and i can tell you with 100% certainty that white men and women are EXTREMELY MORE RACIST than blacks are. As a matter of fact i never truly found any Black person to be truly racist but only responding to 400 years of HATE FROM WHITES. Of course Blacks are angry at whites, look at the facts. Of over 2,000 hate groups in America 90% of them are white and only less than 1% are Black. Only 14% of the population is Black but yet 63% of all the unarmed men shot by police are Black. Black men are profiled by police 6 to 1 and Black men are pulled over 4 to 1 more times than whites. Black men with exactly the same wrap sheet and same crime do 30% more time than whites. Why was O.J. found not guilty? Because Mark fermon turned out to be yet another racist cop and he admitted he planted evidence, this is the police force this country has allowed to go about with impunity for too long. How come that every cop that violates someones civil rights or kills a person they always get off unless there is a video and then the video shows a complete opposite of what the officer statements said? And let me tell the person who spoke about crime in Chicago, none of those numbers are true and let me give you some ACTUAL NUMBERS from the FBI files………
:///C:/Users/William/Desktop/FBI%20%E2%80%94%20Expanded%20Homicide%20Data%20Table%206.html
For those who don’t want to go to the webpage here are the facts:
Of the 3,128 whites murdered 2,614 were killed by a white offender and 431 were killed by a Black offender. So there goes all of your propaganda down the drain, whites kill more whites than blacks period!
Of the 2,648 Blacks murdered 193 were killed by a white offender and 2,412 were killed by a black offender. So again there goes all your propaganda down the drain.
Go to the FBI website for more info…How about that?
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In 2013, the Ferguson Police Department made 5,384 stops and 611 searches. 86 percent of the stops and 92 percent of the searches were of black people. Only 67 percent of the town’s population is black.
KEY INDICATORS Total White Black
Stops 5384 686 4632
Searches 611 47 562
Arrests 521 36 483
For the complete comprehensive numbers go to this website, it is eyeopening and absolutely sickening….
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/08/how-much-racial-profiling-happens-in-ferguson/378606/
If you have two piles of oysters and you open all of the oysters in the first pile and only open a few oysters in the second pile, you are going to find more pearls in the first pile every time. This is the way profiling puts an unusual amount of Black men in jail by percentage than whites.
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If you would, Abagond:
http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2014/11/michael-brown.html
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@ Buddhuu
WTF is it with the misogyny in the comments on this blog recently?
Weak men: Thwack and George.
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@ George
wtf? i don’t even know what to say…
how can you look at the points i’ve made today and label me like you do jefe??
Hmm, still having trouble I see.
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Legion said:
SMH. Yup. Sometimes the obvious is staring one in the face the whole time.
Occam’s razor.
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@ Mack Lyons
Thanks! I added you to the list.
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@ Kiwi
Thanks for the correction.
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Wilson appealed to the Black Brute stereotype:
Brown was a brute.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5ga8xM8W4M#t=23sec)
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Darren Wilson’s had people supporting him in that Go Fund Me campaign and people supported him financially. That is very telling about the racist climate in this country. And he is successful by killing a black teenager. I was reading on on other blog in the comment section how Wilson is on paid leave probably getting paid to do interviews. That is just so messed up. Only in America can folks get paid for doing immoral acts and come out smelling like a rose.
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Hands up! Don’t Shoot!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPwDvxIG3-s&feature=em-uploademail)
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Strange things went on in Ferguson. Almost as if someone wanted to stoke the flames of racial dissent. The verdict was released for “prime time” – instead of when things could have been a lot quieter that day. The National Guard was not released though the city asked for it desperately, The fire brigades could not get extinguish the burning looted shops, yet the TV teams were able to get close. Taken together, this seems very strange.
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Oona
Someone said the fires were professional set or that is what they believe.
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@ Big Momma
So he had to die. Because he was a brute.
Funny how a far lighter skin tone wouldn’t illicit that snap judgement unless he had someone’s decapitated head in his hand or had actually beaten someone to a bloody, quivering pulp.
@ sharinalr
Interesting.
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I will would like to add to that when the theater shooter or school shooter does something to a nightmare degree does the dominant culture consider them brutes and demons. There is a double standard.
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I don’t think those brothers in Boston who did the bombing in Boston were vilified like Mike Brown was.
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@ Mack Lyons
“Funny how a far lighter skin tone wouldn’t illicit that snap judgement”
I do not agree. If Michael Brown had been white most white people would have said the same thing: “Good riddance”.
Or the younger generation would have nominated him for the Darwin awards.
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@sharinalr & Oona Houlihan
We do live in an era where practically everything is flame retardant. It’s pretty difficult to burn an entire building down. Those fires were huge and almost immediate. That’s not caused by a few people with gas cans, matches and molotovs. I’m no pyro expert but that was a ridiculous amount of accelerant. It’s also possible the owners torched their own places immediately for insurance. You get more if everything is destroyed than just partial destruction.
I still believe though that the protesters FUBARed. Even if there were provocateurs there (which I believe there were) they should have been vetted. There’s no excuse to not vet people, especially if anyone would have even cursory background knowledge of the original Oakland Black Panthers, Occupy Wall Street, or any movement. Protesters could have also worn GoPro cameras, google glasses, or simply kept their cell phones running to capture what was really happening but failed to do so. The organizers failed and were either naive, willfully ignorant or willfully participating. The idea of “let’s just let anyone join us because they seem sympathetic to our cause even though they might work for the police, FBI, or just be mentally ill and even though we had months to prepare and have twitter but things still spill out of control” is beyond incompetent for anyone in 2014. Either that or there were people with gas cans waiting around for the indictment.
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@americanasanguine: That is a pretty thought provoking post, i don’t have a clue about how to make since of this chaos. But you sound like you have experience organizing these types of thing (protest rallies). Maybe the folks in Ferguson don’t have the knowledge about how to go about protesting the smart way. All they have is their emotions and emotions can make many mistakes and have disastrous results. Interesting post
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““He looked up at me and had the most aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that’s how angry he looked.”
No wonder they (the media) kept showing us the pictures of M. Brown where his eyes reflect off of animals. Pathetic!
By the way, white racists have lots of things in common with the Muslim thugs: like the two groups are aggressive, they murder, deny, blame the victims of their own barbarity, they project, avoid talking about their failings..suffer under inferiority / superiority complex….and continue killing and murdering… if all these are not of demonic nature, what else?
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@americanasanguine
A part of me believes it is about being plain naive and I think the moles would have took full advantage of that. They more than likely thought “More support!” and welcomed them into the ranks, but I also believe some of them were people willfully exercising their rage. Rage has no rhythm or rhyme so we can’t sit and try to rationalize it.
Secondly the media is playing a major role here. They are directing attention away from peaceful protest and making focus on the riots. They are giving the view that the riots were all that was done. Another thing is there was clean up done in Ferguson and the media focused only on the whites that went to clean up. I heard from people on the ground that the majority of those that volunteer were actually black not white.
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Wanted to share this for those convinced of justice. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/suspended-st-louis-officer-speaks-darren-wilson-department/
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sharinalr
Another thing is there was clean up done in Ferguson and the media focused only on the whites that went to clean up. I heard from people on the ground that the majority of those that volunteer were actually black not white.
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In this day and age of go-pro, cell phone cameras and Youtube… what is stopping a black person, from doing a video showing black people cleaning up Ferguson, repairing things…. and posting it on Youtube?
Or even sending it to Abagond and having him post it here?
Why do black people whine and complain about what “the media” (white people) won’t do, when we don’t care enough to do it ourselves?
We have the technology?
Why don’t we do it?
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thwack
Part of your problem is…..wait! You are a problem in and of itself.
P.s. when you have free time from harassing people with pointless dribble it would be nice for you to research the photos of blacks helping with clean up provided by black people. Hint* try Facebook or Twitter.
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@Thwack……”what is stopping a black person, from doing a video showing black people cleaning up Ferguson, repairing things…. and posting it on Youtube?”
Because they are too busy taping cops beat the hell out of them or shooting them dead. It’s really hard to tape someone clean when your being pulled over every other time you drive down the street or followed every time you drive down a street you aren’t white enough to be on….etc, etc, etc.
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Honestly, I am not shocked that Officer Darren Wilson wasn’t indicted in Michael Brown’s murder. The story of what incident where he shot and killed Michael Brown went in circles and wasn’t clear to me. And there wasn’t enough evidence to convict him of murder either. I am not saying that I am happy about Officer Darren Wilson being indicted; I am not happy about it however it is what it is.
Since I left Black Nationalism several months ago, I feel that I can think clearer now and form my own thoughts on things that affect me and my race in this country. If I was still in Black Nationalism, I would have blamed Whites for everything but I am realizing that there is good and bad in every race and culture. And that we all need to look pass race and unite as human beings, However this racially charged incident is making it hard for us to do that.
Last but not least, I am truly against the rioting on the streets and looting of the stores in Ferguson. I know these rioters are tired, angry and frustrated. I understand. Being a young, Black woman of nineteen years old, I can understand their frustration because I am tired of the way the government disregards my people, refuses to work together for the betterment of the economy and education and the way young Black youth like Renisha McBride and Trayvon Martin are being murdered and killed each year. However there are better ways to show your anger and frustration than looting the stores and public places and rioting. All that looting and rioting causes tax payers money to repair and fix the things that have damaged during the situation. And many people are losing their jobs or getting hurt in this too. It is sad. At the end of the day, none of this rioting and looting will bring back Michael Brown and only makes us look bad.
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@Adeen: Eloquently, and well sad young queen.
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*said*^^^^^ typo
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@Adeen McKenzie…….You are wise beyond your years Adeen, very well said.
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I know this is bad but I think they should have burned the judicial system.
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Sorry judicial building*
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Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
Since I left Black Nationalism several months ago, I feel that I can think clearer now and form my own thoughts on things that affect me and my race in this country.
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Adeen, can you answer 2 questions?
1. What is “Black Nationalism?”
2. How does a person PRACTICE “Black Nationalism?”
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@Thwack
I refuse to answer those question. Do your own research.
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I don’t consider myself a black nationalist. Mentacide infections are still at epidemic proportions. Many ‘independent’ countries are being run by black people who are happily exploiting their own for individual gain just as the white governors were doing. In many of these same black countries you’re considered better if you have lighter skin, speak the colonial European languages well or are a ‘godly’ Christian instead of retaining any ‘devil-worshipping’ African spirituality. (These things are very, very misunderstood by the way. Maybe I’ll follow up on that a bit)
On the other hand, anyone expecting whites, as a group, to truly see themselves as part of humanity (or alternatively to see others as human) is in for a very long wait. It is never going to happen. It seems as if it is relatively easy for black people to do this despite the fact that they have been dealing with white aggression quite consistently. What does it say about whites that their group usually turned around and brutalized or exterminated the people they settled with even though those people had sometimes helped the foreigners who didn’t look like themselves? Not only that, whites often rewrote history to paint their victims as savages deserving of destruction. One just has to be able to recognize centuries worth of patterns. It is not going to change as a result of white people changing the way they operate. Any attempt to truly escape white control (eg. a country decides to reassert control of mineral resources) still results in aggression.
Whenever I hear white people talk about certain places being hellholes I want to ask them who was the Devil presiding over them. Almost every continent endured centuries of white colonization that often left the people with imposed languages, political borders, systems of government, cultures, and ways of seeing themselves. This is extremely thorough destruction; I have to tip my hat at the genius of it. You speak a white language so whites get to say whether you’re speaking correctly eh? You have their religion so they get to say whether you’re right with ‘god’ eh? They may have stolen land, labour, or resources from your group or region for centuries yet their economic system gets to say you’re the one in debt eh? I guess entanglement in the web is so thorough that people don’t even realize that in the aftermath of white group terrorism they have almost NOTHING of theirs.
I am pretty sure that the idea of the races getting along genuinely appeals to black people far more than it does to whites. White people are quite comfortable with the status quo but will gladly talk about “truth and reconcilliation”, claim that they “dont’ see color” or invoke “I have a dream” while not taking any genuine steps to correct injustices (those same people may hate affimative action or the idea of reparations). How many whites do you think are more uncomfortable with “Black History Month” than the shooting of unarmed black people by agents of the state? How many are as moved to donate monetarily to a reputable black charity as they are to donate to individuals who shot and killed black men?
I don’t have any animosity toward whites as individuals but I’m fully aware of the group attitude. I’m sure there were ‘nice white people’ and whites having intercourse with black folks during Slavery, Jim Crow, Apartheid, etc. None of that diminished the prevailing racism of those times. Black people could be raising white chldren and they still considered those women below them. How could they justify leaving their children with them? Beats me but they did. Expecting white people to change is not a plan, IMO. A plan is recognizing the game, not being stupid, building off what others have made possible, and playing to win in every sphere wherever I am.
As for the ‘riots’, it would be better if none of this was happening. It would be better for police to be less trigger happy and for there to be a trial to determine whether it was lawful to shoot an unarmed man who is many feet away. But at least buildings are burning instead of people being lynched and burned as some other people were wont to do when they felt justice was too slow for their liking.
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Adeen Mckenzie-Kennedy
@Thwack
I refuse to answer those question. Do your own research.
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OK; but YOU are the person who said YOU left “Black Nationalism”
Remember Adeen, as a nonwhite person in a system of white supremacy, you are ALWAYS in court;
The cemeteries and prisons are full of nonwhite people who waited for proof from white people.
Try not to be one of em.
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@Origin…..Sadly and shamefully I believe you are correct about everything.
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@Origin: Very succinct and incisive and sadly everything you said is true.
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@Adeen:
Excellent comment.
However, with respect, I don’t think the reaction to the GJ decision (protests, “riots”) makes POC look bad. I do think that white establishment, the media and general racists want to paint it that way. Consequently, of course, all the negative, minority stuff is emphasised (looting etc).
The majority of those people who are on the side of the system and the police will say it makes POC look bad. The majority of those people who are opposed to a biased system and to growing police brutality and impunity will probably say that direct action is the only thing that makes people listen. Where has quiet discussion and negotiation got you?
Sadly, it takes a threat to their own wealth and comfort to make people take notice of problems that they consider to be someone else’s.
Personally I have respect for the protesters and those in all the other cities where support has been expressed.
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@buddhuu: Exactly. You and commentator “americanasanguine ” help me to put the dots together and see how people form their perceptions about people of color. The white establishment and the general racist and the media. All three of those entities are what the dominant culture forms their opinions on. These are the culprits of all the confusion and lies about what is happening in this crises. But there are other narratives that are not being told. On my Google Plus, there is a photograph of a young black boy in tears being embraced by a white policeman. At the end of the day it’s just two people being human. But the media will not show that narrative. They just want to fuel the public’s mind and emotions with negative images. I have now become wary of the media. I have learned that i can’t believe everything they show and tell us.
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The media… *Grinds teeth*.
Mary, our BBC used to be something I thought was trustworthy. I grew up with it as the “respectable” broadcaster: it is even known in the UK as “Auntie”. The last 5 years or so have opened my eyes to the fact that our tax-funded national broadcaster isn’t at all impartial. It is just a propaganda tool for the establishment. It is pro-Israel, pro-right wing politics and deliberately ignores and suppresses news about even the largest popular demonstrations and movements.
In the USA people know about Fox, the NYP and other fascist Murdoch media. What they don’t recognise is the more subtle emphasis and omission used by the more covert establishment media.
Can’t trust it.
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@Buddhuu
The looting and riots does make Black people look bad. My people already have to deal with the negative stereotypes and racism that they encounter daily in this racist society. All that looting and riots make my people look like n words and animals. And the looting of stores is making innocent people lose their jobs and riots is causing destruction of public and private property. And the rioters and looters will have a much harder people in getting a job once this situation is over. I understand their frustration of the racism and bad economic conditions but none of the riots will ever bring back Michael Brown.
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In other words, these rioters are rioting and looting stores because of their frustration at the government, economy, Black males such as Trayvon Martin getting shot and killed at alarming rates, police brutality, etc. Michael Brown’s murder in Ferguson just heightened their frustrations. Trust me, none of the riots and looting are about Michael Brown. These rioting and lootings is about a bunch of disgruntled citizens expressing their anger, frustration and rage at the government and events happening around them through rioting, looting and acting like buffoons in public.
I am not against people expressing themselves in public the way that they want to however all this rioting and looting just isn’t a good look for Americans or America at large.
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I don’t condone looting and rioting. I don’t think Mike Brown was a choir boy either but with that being said he didn’t deserve to be shot and killed.
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@Adeen: Very astute commentary and my how you have grown.
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@Mary Burrell, William the Conqueror
Yeah, I think it will get harder to be blatantly racist because of other factors and pressures (eg. changing demographics and laws) not because of any moral rennaissance among whites in general.
Now, I’m no lawyer and I’m neglecting to do specific research right now but I was under the impression that a prosecutor can elect not to charge and individual with a crime or to drop charges against them. So one would assume that if a Grand Jury is convened it is done in good faith and the prosecutor will make a vigorous case for charges being brought. Yet it would seem that the prosecutor responsible for the Darren Wilson case presented evidence in such a way that would cause the jurors to doubt. Evidence of a crime is rarely CSI-level slum dunk and usually there is conficting or potentially exculpatory evidence in the mix. Yet establishing ‘reasonable doubt’ is really the job of the defense at the actual trial not the prosecutor’s job at a Grand Jury. So the Grand Jury might have been used as a way for the prosecutor get the result he wanted without directly taking the heat for letting Wilson walk. From his demeanor at the press conference I think it’s likely that he felt forced to find a circuitous way avoid a murder trial due to the media coverage and controversy. In the absence of the media spotlight and the protests he would simply have declined to bring charges against the officer.
A similar take: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ferguson-da-analysis-20141126-story.html
Honestly, I don’t think the ‘riots’ make us look bad. I doesn’t take anything for us to look bad. We could be walking home talking to a friend on our mobile phone, wearing a hoodie in the rain carrying candy and look so bad we’re followed and ‘justifiably’ killed. We could have picked up a BB gun off the shelf with the intent to purchase at a Walmart in an open carry state and look bad enough to trigger a 911 call and for police to execute us on sight. We could be reaching into our vehicle to comply with an officer’s request to produce our drivers’ license and look so bad that he shoots us several times. I would love for whites to point out our historical crimes against them so that we can apologize and move forward [sarcasm]. Evidence indicates that white fear and hatred of black people requires the most meager justifications. So am I to believe that but for our tendency to ‘riot’ (lol, how often does that – or suicide bombings – happen in this thoroughly racist country) we wouldn’t ‘look bad’. LMAO!! When you can be judged, convicted, and executed while doing the most innocent things how can you possibly look worse?
That’s not to suggest that a neighborhood on fire is a pleasant thing to see. But I think worrying about how it makes us look to white people is completely pointless. Nothing any black person does is going to change the white racist view of black people in general. That is already fixed. So I never think to myself, “a black person committed a crime so whites are going to think all black people are criminals”. I know that’s already the racist determination. So why should I care if they choose to select certain behavior to confirm their biases. I don’t. I’m quite sure only a small percentage of all black people in America were inclined or able to protest in Ferguson and an even smaller fraction did anything illegal.
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*CSI-level slam dunk! 😀
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@Origin: Well written post.
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Honestly I don’t quite understand how the Michael Brown case became THE one case to fight and die upon.
Within the past few years we have had a plethora of similar cases, most of which have had nowhere near the reaction that this case has had.
– In Columbia South Carolina officer Sean Groubert was caught in surveillance tape, shooting Levar Jones for as he complied with his order to show him his Licence and registration while parked at a gas station.
– Tamir Rice, a 12 year old boy was shot to death by White officers in a public park in Cleveland. he was shot 3 seconds after the police arrived.
– John Crawford was shot to death in a department store while holding a toy gun he had taken off the shelf (the red tip was still on.)
– Eric Garner was killed in NY by White policeman Justin D’Amico, in an it legal chokehold that was not mentioned in the police report but was later found in a surveillance video.
And of course there was Trayvon Martin.
Now I realize that these cases are not all through the court system as of yet, but cumulatively, these are all make the point about what goes on in this country better than the Micheal Brown case.
IF there was going to be a reaction, it should have centered around shedding light on all of these cases together instead of focusing just on the Micheal Brown case. We need to have a national discussion about the trend, not about one case in isolation. The media focusing only on the Michael Brown case is a kind of deflection from all the other, even more straightforward cases that have occurred.
We need to confront and expose the trend.
The confrontation MUST be controlled and non-violent.
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Brutality against black men in this so called “police culture” needs to be addressed.
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There’s also the Akai Gurley case which is quite inexplicable.
“Two police officers prepared to enter the pitch-black eighth-floor stairwell of a building in a Brooklyn housing project, one of them with his sidearm drawn. At the same time, a man and his girlfriend, frustrated by a long wait for an elevator, entered the seventh-floor stairwell, 14 steps below. In the darkness, a shot rang out from the officer’s gun, and the 28-year-old man below was struck in the chest and, soon after, fell dead.”
I guess I should have added “leaving girlfriend’s apartment” to the list of activities that are dangerous in the presence of police.
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@Origin: I forgot about Akai Gurley and then there is Tanisha Anderson in Cleveland, Ohio. A schizophrenic woman slammed to the pavement by police after her family called for assistance to help control her. And then there was Tamir Rice 12 years old with a toy gun also in Cleveland Ohio. There is just too many deaths at the hands of policeman.
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@Origin…..” I would love for whites to point out our historical crimes against them so that we can apologize and move forward [sarcasm].”
EXACTLY!!!!!!!
This is what pisses me off to the fringes of HELL! When my racist friends, or shall I say people on Facebook, because none of the racist like to talk about race face to face because it makes them look like the hateful, evil, stains of society that they are. I always ask, “What in the world has the Black community done to this country, this world and more importantly 60% of whites to deserve such hate?” Please tell me because I can list about 200 human atrocities that the world and specifically white America has done to Black people but I can’t for the life of me think of one single legitimate injustice that makes white people so prejudice, so hateful, so fucking ignorant….”…..what the fuck!
You know what makes me ashamed of being white sometimes, it’s when I approach/meet a Black person and I am afraid he/she is going to think that I hate them, I think they are a criminal, they think I am a racist, they think they can’t trust me, they think I would judge them for anything else but their heart, etc…..To them I am just another racist and believe me I look like one. I shave my head, I am Irish white, I am over 40, all the tell tale signs of an idiot…LOL.
Anyway Origin you said it perfectly again and this sentence is something I touch on always and you can tell by my language it sets me off…thank you.
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@King……”Honestly I don’t quite understand how the Michael Brown case became THE one case to fight and die upon.
Within the past few years we have had a plethora of similar cases, most of which have had nowhere near the reaction that this case has had.”
Very true and that’s why most people who do not have the heart, the wisdom or the humanism to see past their own white upper lip cannot grasp that, although another use of excessive force on a Black man resulting in death, the Ferguson riots are not about Michael Brown but about 500 Michael Browns.
I find it so appalling and a travesty of justice of the worst kind that the very man who works side by side with Darren Wilson on a daily basis is the very man who is responsible for finding the “Right Evidence” to indict him on murder charges.
I believe that the chances of an officer being convicted of such an act is less than 1%. There is no way that they are going to allow the system to look flawed in fear of backlash that might occur. These people are more concerned with appearance rather than morality. With workload rather than justice. With what could be rather than what should be….I am sickened by the monumental denial of whites that no way could a white policeman lie, be racist, corrupt, immoral, etc…Especially when there are a plethora of cases and cases of cops lying, being racist, being corrupt, etc. Lets take the Rialto, CA police for example; they were made to wear body cameras and after several months of this the amount of excessive force complaints went down 60%….Are you effen kidding me? 60%, do you know what this implies? That 6 out of 10 times a cop beats some guy it’s unnecessary, anytime he kills someone it is unnecessary…It’s not hard to see the writing on the cops face if you are a realistic human being who has an honest and caring heart!
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@King
I can’t speak for this on a whole, but I know for me it was a matter of just keeping my feelings and thoughts inside. The position I hold at church is one similar to a politician so to speak so I have found it easier to take the middle ground rather than display too many emotions. Fears of how everyone will see me so to speak.
When this happened again and a white friend I thought I knew said “If black people….” I was just done. Done because true colors showed. Done because I could no longer hide my true colors. So I took to have an open discussion on race and the result was that many of my “friends” left the table to delete me from their social media etc. The result for me was I did not care. I felt it was time to have some true discussion on race. Truly address the bigotry and denial of not just white people but some black people.
Though for me it was not just Mike Brown, but it reminded me of all the victims before him that simply did not get justice. This was the first that was well mobilized, the first to get global support (I may be wrong). For me it was a matter of how much longer and I going to bite my tongue while my people becomes victims of an unjust system that I know has no aim to change. Bad timing, but better now than never. I just hope the momentum is kept and this can bring more black people to support black businesses and other movements of injustice.
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“support black businesses”
Yes, yes and more yes. Start more too.
If working for white people were the answer then…
LOL, the joke is too obvious.
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Wondering what everyone thinks of this:
SWAT Police Caught Setting Fires In Ferguson: http://youtu.be/uT0uaZ5Ymeo
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@ King
I suspect the main reason Mike Brown blew up is because the shooting took place on a Saturday afternoon in a residential area where there were plenty of eyewitnesses. Add to that that they left his body lie there for four and a half hours.
All those other cases matter too, of course. If Brown was a one-off, it would merely be tragedy, not what it is. There would be no protests. McCulloch might have even let Wilson go to trial since there would be no house of cards to defend.
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abagond
@ King
Add to that that they left his body lie there for four and a half hours.
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Ive noticed this observation made on the internet/blogs as a way to claim Michael Browns body was abused, mishandled, and/or neglected…
There is no proof of a connection between the amount of time a dead body lay on the ground and that body being abused, neglected and/or mishandled.
There is a code that must be followed regarding how the bodies of dead shooting victims are handled. Certain steps must be followed IN SEQUENCE in order to preserve and record evidence. If it takes 4 and 1/2 hours to do it correctly, so be it.
I suspect it depends on the wealth of the particular municipality in question.
If anything, people should be more suspicious of a quick clean up.
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George, I don’t know where you work; but are you willing to wear a body camera all day so your boss can keep track of how well you perform your duties?
How often you use the rest room?, how long you take for lunch? how often you talk to your wife on your cell phone?
How many donuts you eat per day?
How much time you spend reading and commenting on blogs…?
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abagond:
I’m looking forward to your post on the Bosnian immigrant who escaped a war-torn homeland only to be beaten to death with hammers by several blacks and a Hispanic youth yesterday. The authorities have said they don’t think there is any racial element involved, but a bystander said the beating occurred “right after black people running up and down the street yelling, ‘Eff the white people, kill the white people.’”
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We have some commenters that are willfully obtuse; others just simply fill this blog with strings of nonsense comments.
But this nonsense must be stopped dead in its tracks.
For all the people who are clueless:
HOMICIDE is always WRONG
It doesn’t matter if whites kill blacks, Hispanics, Natives, Asians or other whites.
It doesn’t matter if blacks kill whites, Hispanics, Natives, Asians or other blacks.
It doesn’t matter if white Hispanics kill dark Hispanics..
It doesn’t matter if dark Hispanics kill white Hispanics.
It doesn’t matter if Jews kill gentiles or Muslims.
It doesn’t matter if gentiles kill Jews.
It doesn’t matter if multiracial Cablinasians kill other multiracial Cablinasians.
It doesn’t matter if one person kills 10 people in one go.
It doesn’t matter if 10 people gang up together to kill one person.
It doesn’t matter if a gay person kills a straight person or another gay person.
It doesn’t matter if a civilian kills a cop.
It doesn’t matter if a cop kills a civilian.
It doesn’t even matter if a man or woman is killing his/her rapist.
It doesn’t matter who kills who. It is always WRONG. It is wrong whether or not it is categorized as a HATE crime or not.
The only question is, is it criminal or not?
We have different categories of criminal homicide (eg, murder and manslaughter) to various degrees.
We also have different categories of non-criminal homicide, eg, Accidents and self-defense or justifiable homicide. |
Bringing up other cases is really irrelevant – it does in no way minimize the epidemic in the USA nor the case in this post. It is a derailment and deflection.
Now, the case in Ferguson. What was it? Criminal or non-criminal homicide? To be a matter of self-defense, death must be more or less imminent. Either the victim is in the process of killing the killer or he is charging at the killer with a deadly weapon at close range.
That did not happen, meaning it should be criminal homicide.
Fear of large black men is not a reason to kill them. Neither are phantom weapons. At least not a justifiable reason. But in the USA, it is, especially if coming from a white person.
If a gang of men beat and kill ANYONE to death, it is wrong, and almost always criminal, whether in the example above or in others, such as Vincent Chin. Only thing is, Vincent Chin’s killers did not get charged with a crime. If they did not commit a crime, what did they do?
If Darren Wilson did not commit a crime, what did he do?
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“Do people want the police so afraid of making a mistake on camera that they slow down to the point of becoming ineffective? ”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
White people in general (like you) see nothing wrong with the regular killing of UNARMED Black people by the police who get away with murder by simply stating to a white judge, “Your Honor, I was overwhelmed in fear for my life!”
People who pretend to be black (like you) believe police worn cameras will hamper police efficiency in keeping unarmed Blacks (so-called thugs) in check.
____________________________________________________
“I’m looking forward to your post on the Bosnian immigrant who escaped a war-torn homeland only to be beaten to death with hammers by several blacks and a Hispanic youth yesterday.”
@Biff
Why do you continually fail to SEE THE POINT?
How often do Blacks go unpunished (aka – get away with murder) for crimes against white Bosnian immigrants?
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jefe said “Bringing up other cases is really irrelevant – it does in no way minimize the epidemic in the USA nor the case in this post. It is a derailment and deflection.”
That is one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the Michael Brown case is irrelevant and is a derailment and deflection from more important issues this country faces.
jefe said, “If Darren Wilson did not commit a crime, what did he do?”
Darren Wilson was a police officer (now he lost his job). He was informed about a recent robbery in the area. According to officer Wilson, he realized Mr. Brown fit the description of the criminal. More importantly, Mr. Brown realized he had just committed a robbery and was being stopped by a cop and was likely to be arrested. Natural responses would be fight or flight. Mr. Brown obviously picked the former.
I read somewhere that officer Wilson should have gotten out of the situation. OK, for a normal citizen. However, he’s a cop. He must enforce the law. That doesn’t entail simply running away from criminals who look scary.
Anyway, the life of the Bosnian maybe tells us something about black on white racism. That’s a legitimate topic for this blog, unless that kind of racism should be hidden and ignored, while a drugged up guy who just committed a robbery and was “no stranger to the law” and decided to attack a cop is somehow now a “national saint”. For the vast majority of Americans, this characterization is ridiculous.
Just Me, it’s not just about punishment. It’s about prevention. Punishment of the offenders won’t bring this Bosnian guy back to life. We need to address the racism created by Mr. Brown’s evil actions and the vilification of a cop who a jury determined was not guilty of a crime after considering the evidence for months.
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jefe: “To be a matter of self-defense, death must be more or less imminent. Either the victim is in the process of killing the killer or he is charging at the killer with a deadly weapon at close range.”
jefe, you grossly misunderstand the law per your second sentence there. There’s no obligation to let someone charge you and beat you up and possibly kill you just because he is unarmed.
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@ biff
It’s terrible that happened and I hope those responsible are held to account. But there’s no systemic and institutional discrimination of Bosnians by the black American or Hispanic community. Your equivocation is coming up empty.
@ thwack
Sounds like you work in bounty hunting or asset recovery. Ironically, there’s an Internet-famous Utah-based repo guy who constantly uses cameras to film nearly every aspect of his operation, not just to create footage for his followers, but also to cover his own behind legally.
Yes.
Why?
Because it’ll finally kill the cowboy culture in most police departments. If LEOs must fundamentally rework their approach to remain effective in the face of a camera, then so be it.
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@Biff….nothing I can say will change your mind about any of what we on this blog are doing or your opinion on racism, why? Because you are ignorant as are most racist. Not ignorant in the fact that you are stupid but ignorant in the fact that you only know what you are surrounded by and what you watch on TV and have accrued from your parents or friends. You are a typical blind white conservative American living in a pure bread white gated world getting your experiences from the back of a wheaties box or in the locker room of your dads country club.
You see the shoplifting of cigars by an over sized teenager as a right for an officer to use deadly force 7 times, the last 2 in the head. I can assume that in your youth you have done similar things like I have, but I have the privilege of being white. We even tease each other about being young and getting away with murder because of our age. I was never in fear of being shot or even arrested as a white privileged youth, I still feel that way as an adult. Unfortunately for some of our fellow countrymen and women and more importantly their children, if they even look the wrong way they could end up getting shot or beaten to death, shear numbers do not lie. What you either don’t know or refuse to realize is that the police force is chock full of racist cops, cops with chips on their shoulders, sociopaths, etc. How many cops have been killed by an unarmed citizen? ZERO. How many times a year does a police officer get beaten to death? ZERO. How many officers in the field are killed each year by violence, 0.5 per state. There are over 900,000 sworn law enforcement officers and less than one officer per state meets a violent demise, only 100 officers are killed in the line of duty each year, mostly by vehicle accidents. So tell me biff, where is the danger? Why was he so scared, after all he is 6′ 4″ tall, 2 inches taller than Michael and besides cops are trained to subdue a suspect with little ease by using defense tactics that allow the smallest officer to apprehend the largest suspect. And how blind are you if you believe that every officer and department is honest, as a matter of fact most are not honest and they always, always protect their own, thats why there are 500 innocent unarmed people murdered in this country each year by cops and that is only 17% of the department numbers, most departments do not keep track or statistics of officer involved shootings. Look at the Rialto evidence, after wearing cameras the number of excessive force incidents went down 60%…are you fucking kidding me, 60%. Not 3%, not 15%, not 25%…60%. 6 out of 10 times a cop beats a man to death is unnecessary. What do you have to say about that? What about the fact that everytime a video appears after an incident it proves the officer to be lying?
Your mentioning of the Black youths killing the immigrant is typical. Since you are such an activist when it comes to crimes against humanity and murders in regards to mobs of racist, maybe you would like to share with the group your feelings of the 8 million men, women and children murdered by white men of this country. Maybe you would like to share your feelings of the crowds of hundreds to thousands of whites in the south during the 20th century that watched in amusement as young men, some no older than 12 years old were beaten, hung and set on fire alive, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Some of them were also guilty of stealing items such as a muffin or a loaf of bread to feed their family. Not an isolated incident but one that occurred thousands of times but not recorded by the law or history books, which by the way were written by the very white men who hung those men and children.
I bet you are one of those white dudes that think Black people kill more white people than white people do. Well I have news for you, you would be wrong. White people kill mostly white people and Black people kill mostly Black people. Besides why would a criminal rob and kill a Black person when white people have all the money. It doesn’t make sense, so it is not hate it is just smart criminal enterprising…
Lets also look at Black racism like two intelligent people. How can a Black person be racist in America? After 400 years of oppression, 260 years of slavery, 100 years of segregation and apartheid and zero human rights, 400 years of poverty, racism yesterday and today and 2000 hate groups which 90% are white and only 1 % are black. So my question is how do you know for sure if a Black person is racist or only responding to 400 years of white abuse, hate and supremacy? Wouldn’t you hate someone who did this to you, your mother, your grandfather, your forefathers? However the facts don’t show that…of the 2000 hate groups less than 1% are based on Black hate towards whites and over 90% are based on whites hating blacks. Go figure…
However it is extremely simple to determine if a white person is racist because the Black people on this Earth have not done one single thing that warrants white people to hate them…but we know why whites dislike Blacks, THEY ARE COWARDS. They are scared and white conservatives fear everything. They stock pile guns because they are scared, they keep people down because they are scared, they will not except anyone unless they conform to their way of talking, their way of dressing, their religion, their music, etc.
I have some great life experiences that have allowed me to see both sides of this argument from inside both social circles, midst my white family and friends and midst my Black family and friends. In the present my family and friends mostly consist of whites except for two of my cousins and I will say it once again BIFF, I can say with 100% certainty, even without the mountain of evidence, that the white race is 67% racist and as far as my experience with Black Americans racism does not exist towards whites but there sure is a lot of anger, pain and hate all of which is deserved. Any racism that you believe exist within the Black community can be summed up with three words, Newtons Third Law…..”For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.”
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@ Biff
We really need to wait till all the facts are in before we jump to conclusions about whether he deserved to live.
Maybe Zemir Begic was charging at them.
Maybe he looked like a demon.
Maybe he had arms as thick as Hulk Hogan.
Maybe he punched one of the killers so hard it made his cheek red.
Maybe he was wearing a hoodie.
Maybe his pants sagged.
Maybe he adjusted his waistband.
Maybe he had an abusive father.
Maybe he was not respectful to his killers.
Maybe he had just shoplifted.
Maybe he had jaywalked.
Maybe he was in a dark stairwell.
Maybe he had just bought Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea.
Maybe he stole a doughnut and three energy drinks.
Maybe he was selling loose cigarettes.
Maybe he had a toy gun.
Maybe he had a knife.
Maybe they thought he had a gun but it was a sandwich.
Maybe they thought he had a gun but it was a wallet.
Maybe he was schizophrenic.
Maybe he was autistic.
Maybe it was a suicide.
Maybe there is a picture of him on Facebook where he used a gang sign.
Maybe the White or Bosnian homicide rate in another city was high.
The police, unfortunately, are already arresting suspects after just a day.
They should do at least three autopsies first.
They should let the suspects go into hiding and help them to raise $430,000.
They should let the suspects investigate themselves and present the “facts” to a grand jury and let the grand jury decide whether they should be arrested.
They should take what the suspects say as holy gospel.
Unlike the Michael Brown case, the Begic case is turning into a huge miscarriage of justice.
/sarcasm off
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abagond:
In this case, it seems many witnesses saw these kids banging on white people’s cars with their hammers for quite some time, and spewing hate speech. (contrast this to the Michael Brown case, where most witnesses basically backed up officer Wilson’s version of events).
But you’re right, he failed this one “Maybe he was not respectful to his killers.” He didn’t get it, because he didn’t know the score like most native-born American whites do. He should have just taken the car damage and floored it out of there.
As for this one, “Maybe he had just bought Skittles and Arizona Iced Tea,” it wasn’t iced tea. It was another drink that, along with Skittles and cough syrup, is apparently part of the recipe for “purple drank”, a very dangerous intoxicant which Trayvon was known to consume. Purple drank is also known to make people under its influence more violent, and Trayvon was known to be a violent thief as well.
Seriously, where is the black dude who was totally upstanding (no criminal history) who was killed without justification and his killer wasn’t prosecuted? Doesn’t this person exist?
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WHOOSH!!!
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@ Biff
I thought you had a high IQ or something, at least higher than most Black people. Like Jefe said, you are being wilfully obtuse. This is what you are getting:
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William said, “Not ignorant in the fact that you are stupid but ignorant in the fact that you only know what you are surrounded by and what you watch on TV and have accrued from your parents or friends. You are a typical blind white conservative American living in a pure bread white gated world getting your experiences from the back of a wheaties box or in the locker room of your dads country club.”
Just saw this comment. I guess you don’t know much about my history, which is fine (though others like abagond and Kiwi are very close readers, you are not the sharpest tool in this shed). I actually grew up in a solidly middle (or even lower middle) class family (my parents basically had no savings for most of their lives). In addition to living outside of the States for almost a decade, I have lived in Hawaii, LA, New York and Detroit and have gotten to interact with quite a number of people of different races. Some of my best friends are actually black, Hispanic and Asian and most of my friends are non-white.
I used to think like you, and I was raised on leftist propaganda. I believed it all.
But it’s wrong. Look at the big picture. Whites are being replaced in the U.S. and in Europe, and society is becoming more and more socially stratified. Because you are a white leftist it is less likely you will care about reproducing. However, if you do, the country you will leave to your children and grandchildren will be much worse than the one you received from your elders. And the sad part is that it won’t get be better for the people of color. There will be more and more color wars. You can see the treatment blacks receive in Latin America, as Hispanics have much less sympathy for blacks than whites do.
Look at family structure. More than 90% of black kids grow up at some point without their fathers being actively involved in their lives. Soon more than half of kids will be born out of wedlock. The liberal welfare state and rejection of traditional religion and morality is destroying the country, and it has started with the black community, but it won’t stop there.
Remove all the conservatives from the country and what do you have. Few in the middle class. Few married people with kids. Poor minorities along with the elites in government, education and the media and wallstreet types. That is your future society, bro. More stratified and unequal than you can imagine.
The country keeps moving further and further to the left and somehow you think the all the problems are all due to evil white conservatives. It’s ridiculous. Open your eyes. I know the chances of reaching you are very low, but at least I tried…
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=willful%20ignorance
They need to add willful obtuseness, but this is close enough.
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@Biff….”It was another drink that, along with Skittles and cough syrup, is apparently part of the recipe for “purple drank”, a very dangerous intoxicant which Trayvon was known to consume. Purple drank is also known to make people under its influence more violent, and Trayvon was known to be a violent thief as well.”
Biff would you like to tell the court where you get this very poignant and smoking gun piece of evidence from? You would take HEARSAY from bigots around the world as information to form an opinion? Because in no court of law is that bullshit even remotely allowed as evidence. I bet if you heard Trayvon was a sweet boy from a Black person who knew him you would discard that bit of info wouldn’t you? None and I say none of these actions of these boys deserves to be murdered.
By the way lets hear about what you think about Zimmerman and all of the PROOF that he is a bigot with a temper and a gun fetish.
July 28, 2013 — Police in Texas pull over the former neighborhood watch captain for speeding. The police report says Zimmerman informed the officer during the stop that he had a gun in the glove compartment. Zimmerman was let off with a verbal warning.
August 19, 2013 — Police pull over Zimmerman and warn him that the window tint on his car is too dark, according to police records.
August 28, 2013 — Shellie Zimmerman pleads guilty to a misdemeanor charge of perjury as part of a plea deal that comes with a year of probation instead of prison time for lying about the couple’s finances during Zimmerman’s bond hearing. She faced up to five years in prison before the deal was made.
September 3, 2013 — Police pull over George Zimmerman yet again in early September for going 60 in a 45 mph zone in Lake Mary, Florida, and he received a $256 ticket. He was not carrying a weapon at the time.
September 9, 2013 — Zimmerman is taken into custody after an alleged domestic dispute with his estranged wife. Florida police later released a report that revealed no charges would result from the incident.
November 18, 2013 — Police arrest Zimmerman and charge him with felony assault for allegedly pointing a gun at his girlfriend, Samantha Scheibe. Shellie Zimmerman’s attorney served Zimmerman with divorce papers as he sat in jail.
February 24, 2014 — Newly-released evidence photos collected during the domestic dispute between Zimmerman and his girlfriend show off his trove of weapons.
Sept. 12, 2014 — George Zimmerman threatened to kill a driver during a road rage incident in Lake Mary and later showed up at the man’s workplace, according to police.
Now this is actual proof Biff that all the evidence that pointed to Zimmerman being a short tempered sociopath with a happy trigger finger have been backed up with a mountain of proof. Once again hearsay is not proof of anything other than exposing you for the racist you are…
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Kiwi
ROFL.
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I support president obama’s initiative to supply bodycams for local police but other than that this whole has got me feeling really frustrated i guess mostly because the ‘white community’ is truly acting as if it’s just another day all the time but obviously that’s not the case. Obama’s refusal to comment on the appropriateness of the grand jury decision and appealling to the ‘rule of law’ does what most presidents do best iecgive with one hand and take with the other. I just cant put it in words quite yet but my gut is the divisiveness is being used by the elite….
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biff
abagond:
I’m looking forward to your post on the Bosnian immigrant who escaped a war-torn homeland only to be beaten to death with hammers by several blacks and a Hispanic youth yesterday.
———————————————————————————————-
Don’t forget about the “Bosnia immigrant” who murdered Bill Cosby’s son and got caught because he bragged “I just killed a drug dealer.”
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You can’t beg and plead a man to change his way of thinking if he don’t want to. That’s a bad habit black folks have when it comes to wilfully obtuse whites like our friend biff. He doesn’t care. He knows he can get a lot of people cranked up over the idiocy he spreads, because there are always people who’ll rush to not only counteract his idiocy, but also try to convince him to be less of an idiot.
The less response biff and others like him get from the commentators, the less inclined he’ll be to spout his idiocy, IMHO.
And for the love of all that’s beautiful, stop begging white Americans to be less of the obtuse, stubborn idiots they are. Because chances are they’re doing it on purpose.
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@Thwack…Don’t forget about the “Bosnia immigrant” who murdered Bill Cosby’s son and got caught because he bragged “I just killed a drug dealer.”
Thank you…
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@Mack Lyons…..”The less response biff and others like him get from the commentators, the less inclined he’ll be to spout his idiocy, IMHO.”
So true, so true, now if only I can get my brain to convince my mouth of that I could get it to follow such great advice.
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@ thwack @ Just Me
I deleted comments where you screw up each other’s name.
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I know I’m not as here much. I’ve been so busy lately. Forgive me for coming late to the party.
Anyway, like Trayvon, the right are coming out bringing up black-on-black crime whenever we express our thoughts and emotions about Mike Brown and other police-involved shootings of black people. Here’s the question, since when have the right cared enough about black people to start worrying about intraracial crime? Never. It’s just a self-serving diversionary tactic needed to take away an important issue. Plus, black-on-black crime has NOTHING to do with this. So, in case any commenters dare to go that route, I advise you to stop before you embarrass yourselves.
This nation always -ALWAYS had a problem with POC, black people especially. Most of the people rely on stereotypes than actual people to tell them who black people are. Are stereotypes that powerful or are there people that weak-minded to believe the hype? I dunno, but more and more black men and black women are getting killed not just by cops, but by institutions who set chain reactions that undermine black lives and black families. It’s not a lie set by liberals. It’s fact. Whether it’s intentional or not is up for debate. Nevertheless, black lives are still devalued in this country. No right or left wing argument will dispute that. Period.
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Here is a Narrative-believing liberal who supported Trayvon, but makes a convincing argument that the situation with Michael Brown is total BS and downright irresponsibility on the part of the MSM:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO9kLoTKvco)
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Kiwi said: “The thing is, even if Michael Brown were the “perfect victim”, you still wouldn’t care.”
No, I actually would.
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@ Biff
Joe Scarborough in that video, like you, is being wilfully obtuse. To break it down in Whitespeak, Darren Wilson is about as innocent of murder as O.J. Simpson was. Yet both you and Scarborough accept the grand jury decision with a childlike faith that is unfunny in grown men, a faith I doubt either one of you applied to the O.J. verdict.
Most White people in the US are so morally compromised that they NEED to believe the grand jury. Bob McCulloch is enough of a cynical motherfucker to know that.
Recommended reading:
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Well said Brothawolf………”This nation always -ALWAYS had a problem with POC, black people especially. Most of the people rely on stereotypes than actual people to tell them who black people are. Are stereotypes that powerful or are there people that weak-minded to believe the hype? I dunno, but more and more black men and black women are getting killed not just by cops, but by institutions who set chain reactions that undermine black lives and black families. It’s not a lie set by liberals. It’s fact. Whether it’s intentional or not is up for debate. Nevertheless, black lives are still devalued in this country. No right or left wing argument will dispute that. Period.”
Well said Abagond…….”To break it down in Whitespeak, Darren Wilson is about as innocent of murder as O.J. Simpson was. Yet both you and Scarborough accept the grand jury decision with a childlike faith that is unfunny in grown men, a faith I doubt either one of you applied to the O.J. verdict.
Most White people in the US are so morally compromised that they NEED to believe the grand jury. Bob McCulloch is enough of a cynical motherfucker to know that.”
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@Brothawolf
They are now trying to pull in black abortion rates. One lady came out saying 981 black babies killed since Mike brown. I will speak further when I have more time, but yeah they are pulling out all the stops.
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sharinalr
@Brothawolf
They are now trying to pull in black abortion rates. One lady came out saying 981 black babies killed since Mike brown
———————————————————————————————–
Well she does have good point. If you allow babies to be murdered don’t be surprised your life has less value.
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Wow, next thing you know they’ll be bringing up future risks of cancer and heart disease to justify shootings. They’re dying anyway so who cares if police kill a few, right? I suppose there’s never anything wrong with murdering anyone then.
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abagond said:
“Joe Scarborough in that video, like you, is being wilfully obtuse. To break it down in Whitespeak, Darren Wilson is about as innocent of murder as O.J. Simpson was.”
So let me ask you a question, abagond. What was your reaction when the OJ verdict came out? Were you as disgusted as you were when Darren Wilson was not indicted? Hmmm… I’m guessing no.
However, your comparison (no need to use “Whitespeak”, since Im fluent in Ebonics after my time in Detroit, but thanks for the gesture) indicates that you believe the black community as a whole was being willfully obtuse when the O.J. Simpson verdict was handed down.
Is it possible that most whites would characterize most blacks as being “wilfully obtuse” or something like it with respect to their deification of Michael Brown and the related media frenzy and resulting rioting and looting of primarily minority-owned businesses?
Is it possible this use of “willfully obtuse” is just a way to ascribe moral failing to someone who has a different opinion/view of a situation than you do?
I also believe being “willfully obtuse” or something like it has been discussed as a criteria for banning people from your site. I sense that that is jefe’s goal with such characterizations. If its going down, let’s get it over with.
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For those who believe Darren Wilson was found not guilty should go back and review the case. Out of 12 jurors 9 must agree there is enough evidence for an indictment, that means that 8 of the jurors could have chose to indict and still no indictment would be sought. We know that there were 6 white Jurors, 3 Black jurors and 3 unknown, so Ferguson stacks the cards in favor of the officer.
Darren Wilson was not found innocent nor was he acquitted. The jurors only found that there was not sufficient evidence for the prosecutor to indict. For some odd and unknown reason (sarcasm), witness’s changed their stories, couldn’t remember, etc. after the very department charged with the crime conducted the interviews…wink, wink.
We do know that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich if they want to but it is clear that they did not want to. After all the prosecutor works side by side with the police department and indicting one of their own is extremely unlikely to happen.
Lots of people say how the system is not perfect but it is the best one out there. A system that would allow a powerful force, such as the Ferguson Law Enforcement Department to police and investigate one of it’s own, especially given their propensity for profiling and corruptness, is simply and fundamentally a huge conflict of interest.
The entire shooting does not make sense, even given the fact Michael Brown acted like an idiot teenager after stealing the cigars. What kind of teenager charges a racist cop and tries to take his gun? None, especially given the amount of murders and beatings so many men of color have been dealing with at the hands of the fascist cops recently. Did Michael make some comments that pissed off Darren Wilson, probably. Who shoots someone through a window and a shoplifting suspect at that? I don’t know for sure whether these are the actual series of events as I gathered them through 8000nd hand parties but what I do know for sure is that Michael was unarmed, he was 18, the officer was supposedly a “trained” adult civil servant and not an assassin/judge/juror, witness’s changed their account of what happened several times after a 90 day investigation (almost like they kept asking the same questions over and over and waiting for the answer to change), the very department charged of this crime was the very department investigating this crime (more or less), law enforcement has been proven over and over again to protect their own and profiling and discrimination runs RAMPANT in Fuhrer-guson. In my mind it is simply just another cop cover up after another murdered citizen….Heil Hitler Fuhrer-guson!
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@biff………”with respect to their deification of Michael Brown…”
You define a community rallying around the killing of an unarmed youth deification? So what do you say about the deification that many whites have for lets say, MONEY? How about their love of WAR? How about their deification of Reagan, a man who created more poor people than the great depression and who sold American weapons to our enemy to fund MURDER SQUADS in Honduras? You have a warped sense of Morality but most racist do.
….”Is it possible this use of “willfully obtuse” is just a way to ascribe moral failing to someone who has a different opinion/view of a situation than you do?”
You again divert attention away from yourself by turning the blame on the person who calls you out but it is not a descriptive word that makes you immoral, it is your latent racist actions… “(no need to use “Whitespeak”, since Im fluent in Ebonics after my time in Detroit, but thanks for the gesture)”
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biff
If “willfully obtuse” were a criteria for being banned you along with others would have been gone a long time ago.
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Kiwi said:
“So let me ask you a question, biff. What was your reaction when the Darren Wilson verdict came out? Were you as disgusted as you were when OJ was not indicted? Hmmm… We both know the answer is “no”.”
Logic/reading comp fail, Kiwi. abagond is the one who said officer Wilson and OJ were equally guilty of murder. I would never try to equate an officer who was cursed at and attacked in his car by a drugged up robber and ultimately ended up responding with excessive force (though the jury did not find that, apparently), either because he was unreasonably scared or got carried away in the heat of the moment, with someone seething with jealousy that he couldn’t possess his ex-wife, who carefully plotted beforehand and then broke in and basically decapitated his children’s mother and her boyfriend.
But, hey, if you want to make a friendly wager that officer Wilson will ultimately come out with his own version of “If I Did It:Confessions of the Killer”, then I’m game.
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@Abagond
@Kiwi
I never specified who was being willfully obtuse, but it is not a single individual.
Maybe we could use a post on that topic (since it is a common derailment technique) and we can compare how that compares to “willful ignorance”.
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may i suggest 9 to 10 mm depending on hand size shid done got real i think its time to you know rethink some things have a great day i am so glad to have the people here that talked to me gone be a minute i gotta go home friday its not so much here in ‘south central’ kentucky but apparently there was overwhlming force to guard the christmas tree in philly at city hall and i dont think ny is gonna be a nice night tonight thank u abagond ttys
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/justice/new-york-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
call me a liar
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Joe Scarborough is the typical racist explanationist (I made that word up), He’s the type to use phrases like “data” and “figures” to back up his racist statements and willful ignorance. In the end, white men have no authority to tell black people how it’s like to be black in America facing an injustice system that preys upon them everyday. But the white male paternalistic ego won’t allow himself to be wrong. The white man must be right in his mind. He can’t concede even when there’s evidence staring him in the face. In a way, his ego is his bubble, a confinement which he will not depart from. And yes, I see that with biff and thwack, among others.
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Brothawolf, I think thwack will be surprised to learn that he is now “the white man”.
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@biff…..Remember Biff O.J. was acquitted, the system found him not guilty. How can you assume so much about something you have zero knowledge of except what you heard through a million second hand accounts?
Darren Wilson was not acquitted, the jury found insufficient evidence and since the prosecutor is responsible for presenting the evidence to the jurors he had control of all the strings. For example, why didn’t the prosecutor use the eyewitness testimony of the two construction workers who witnessed most of the events and seconds after the final shots one of them threw up his hands and said very loudly…”He was giving up, he had his hands in the air, why did he shoot”. Why would he throw out such a witness?
You create these stories with your bias mind and yet no one on this blog has strayed from the evidence at hand but you seem to have some psychic ability to see the events as they unfolded in each case. Of course your versions are clearly controlled by your racism as you demonize an innocent teenager with no criminal record but deify the 6′ 4″ coward of a cop who claims he was seconds from meeting his maker and has the balls to let the photographer take pictures of his rosy cheeks and claim that King Kong did this to him…as Judge Judy would say…HA!
Listen, i have been in approximately 12 fights in my life, counting my childhood. As an adult every single fight I have been in ended with visible damage and blood every single time. There is no way Michael Brown attacked this thin skin pale cop and not leave him bloody, bruised and/or swollen. I can send you photos of my face and i can point out each scar and when it happened. These fights lasted no longer than 2 minutes and most the time we were intoxicated but it is very clear nothing happened to Darren Wilson that would grant him the use of deadly force, 8 fucking times.
Why do you not have as much faith in the O.J. jury Biff as you do with the Ferguson jury? If the O.J. jury got it wrong why do you not believe that the Ferguson jury got it wrong as well. The O.J. jury listened to the evidence much longer than did the Ferguson jury and the bottom line is that they found him not guilty. Now Biff please tell me it isn’t that the O.J. jury was mostly Black is it? Because you know that if you believe that let me point out to you that the Ferguson jury was mostly white…
And by the way Biff, how does it feel to be constantly put in your place by the dullest tool in the shed?
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@ William
Thank you. You understood my point exactly.
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Abagond………:)
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William:
Just a couple things. You said: “why didn’t the prosecutor use the eyewitness testimony of the two construction workers who witnessed most of the events and seconds after the final shots one of them threw up his hands and said very loudly…”He was giving up, he had his hands in the air, why did he shoot”. Why would he throw out such a witness?”
Normally, you wouldn’t exclude eye witnesses without a good reason. Having Obama and Eric Holder directly involved with their own special task force out there, you would think that every reasonable witness would be called. Why aren’t those people now coming forward and asking why they were excluded from testifying?
However, what about all the other witnesses, many of them black, who said that Mr. Brown was not giving up and that he had turned around and was approaching officer Wilson again? and what about the autopsy report that shows he wasn’t shot in the back? Were all those witnesses lying and the multiple autopsies performed racist?
The evidence is not terribly clear, and the big picture is, yes, in an altercation like this people want to give the cop the benefit of the doubt, rather than the drugged up robber who yells profanity and assaults the cop.
When we start giving the benefit of the doubt to the drugged up robbers who assault cops, we are actually going to cause less thorough law enforcement (a cop who is smaller than criminals or outnumbered by them can’t do anything, because if he uses a gun it’s murder, even if the criminals attack him–so he’ll leave the scene to get backup and the bad guys get away) and ultimately there is more loss of innocent lives, many of them black.
This is the big picture. This is civilization. Our civilization is in the process of collapsing. You don’t see that. If we are fortunate enough to be around for a while longer, though, I believe it will become unmistakable.
In contrast, in the scenario when a guy commits premeditated murder and brutally decapitates his wife after breaking into her house, do we want to give him the benefit of the doubt?
However, let’s also consider this another way. Did whites riot and kill people and loot businesses after OJ was set free? Nope. Many were upset, but we went on with our lives. What most whites are infuriated about is that this was used as a pretext by the media to gin up anger, which ultimately lead to more loss of property and life.
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Aw Kiwi, you’re like my shadow. But this time it took you more than 45 minutes to respond and then only 2 sentences vaguely accusing me of being a racist who doesn’t care about blacks? I’m disappointed..
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@biff….Here is what Eric Holder had to say about the Jurors decision.
Attorney General Eric Holder released a statement late last night about the Grand Jury decision not to indict Officer Darren Wilson on charges for the fatal shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri. Holder reminded the public that despite the Grand Jury decision, a separate Department of Justice investigation is ongoing.
“While the grand jury proceeding in St. Louis County has concluded, the Justice Department’s investigation into the shooting of Michael Brown remains ongoing. Though we have shared information with local prosecutors during the course of our investigation, the federal inquiry has been independent of the local one from the start, and remains so now. Even at this mature stage of the investigation, we have avoided prejudging any of the evidence. And although federal civil rights law imposes a high legal bar in these types of cases, we have resisted forming premature conclusions,” Holder released in a statement. “Michael Brown’s death was a tragedy. This incident has sparked a national conversation about the need to ensure confidence between law enforcement and the communities they protect and serve. While constructive efforts are underway in Ferguson and communities nationwide, far more must be done to create enduring trust. The Department will continue to work with law enforcement, civil rights, faith and community leaders across the country to foster effective relationships between law enforcement and the communities they serve and to improve fairness in the criminal justice system overall. In addition, the Department continues to investigate allegations of unconstitutional policing patterns or practices by the Ferguson Police Department.”
So the Federal investigation was independent and is ongoing in conjunction with the previous allegations prior to the shooting that the Ferguson police have profiled the hell out of it’s Black citizens, I can give you the eye popping numbers if you want?
You also said….”Did whites riot and kill people and loot businesses after OJ was set free? Nope.”
No whites didn’t riot after the O.J. case, you see white people save their rioting for when their sports team win or lose or their hockey or soccer team lose to one of the Latin teams. Your right rioting because The Maple Leaves lost is much more deserving than when the 8000 young unarmed Black man is murdered by the police.
Let’s not forget Biff, O.J. was found not guilty by a jury of his peers just like jurors found not enough evidence to indict Darren Wilson, what is the difference. You weren’t there, all the witness’s were accounted for, you cannot say for certain whether he did it just like we cannot say Darren Wilson acted with the integrity and Courage (Yeah right) of a well trained law enforcement officer. However there is a part of the O.J. verdict we have not touched on that is so very poignant to our conversation, one of the lead investigators was a flat out racist and refused to deny he planted evidence. Do you know what that means? It means if he would have answered that question truthfully the judge would have to throw out the case and that’s why he took the fifth instead. The moment Mark Furmon opened his racist mouth the trial was over. You cannot plant evidence and then have yourself recorded using racist remarks about the very people you are sworn to protect and think any juror with half a conscience or brain is going to take your testimony seriously. So again race played a role in a trial and in a law enforcement scenario….but why don’t all you right wing conservatives tell us again how your not racist and that it’s us?
I will give you credit Biff your first 3 paragraphs sounded human. However where do you get all this wonderful evidence at? When did the toxicology report come back and find Michael Brown to be drugged up? I don’t know too many cops that are 6′ 4″ , 220 pounds that are smaller than the criminal. Look being an officer of the law takes courage, intelligence, bravery, compassion, people skills, tact and a general like for human beings. It is an extremely difficult job in some cities. However it is not one of the most dangerous jobs, it doesn’t even crack the top 10. The number of good police officers out there with these skills I mentioned is extremely low. And when I say courage I mean the courage to confront your own bigotry, courage to open yourself up to all kinds of people and not judge them, courage to stand up for whats right and not whats comfortable. You act like police are being killed left and right and that they are in fear of their life, let me tell you the numbers of police killing people dwarfs the number of police killed and most are unarmed and Black. this is what the riots are about, not whether or not Michael Brown made some typical teenager mistakes.
One other thing…White people are not being profiled, they are being killed by cops at rates that make absolutely no sense, they are not the poorest of all Americans, they do not make 30% less money than Blacks, they are not targeted by political groups for being lazy or “Privileged”, they are not having their voting rights taken away, they are not doing more jail time for the same crime as Blacks, the list goes on and in addition it has not been an ongoing travesty for 400 years…so to ask why white people aren’t rioting and Black people are rioting is just ridiculous by any standard. Thats like saying…”You don’t see rich people out on the corner begging for money like all the poor people do….geesh.”
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William said:
“One other thing…White people are not being profiled, they are being killed by cops at rates that make absolutely no sense, they are not the poorest of all Americans, they do not make 30% less money than Blacks, they are not targeted by political groups for being lazy or “Privileged”, they are not having their voting rights taken away, they are not doing more jail time for the same crime as Blacks, the list goes on.”
What if you believed that this persistent difference in important life results, that hasn’t changed much at all in the 50+ years of the civil rights movement, affirmative action, etc. was actually primarily due to lower measurable AVERAGE intelligence (as shown in IQ) and associated effects, rather than white racism?
If you could accept that, you would understand why all attempts to achieve equality on a big picture, race-wide level (as opposed to equal opportunity for people of different races based on their specific IQ, skill sets, etc.) is doomed to failure. If you can’t, life will be a series of never ending disappointments for you, young Social Justice Warrior.
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@biff….If it were true that skin color actually can determine intelligence then you and I would be the most intelligent people on this blog and I can say with 100% certainty that this is not the case, so unless you can prove to me that every white person is more intelligent than every Black person your theory holds little clout. However life experiences do have everything to do with certain traits and intelligence is one of them, minus physical disabilities.
So let me debunk yet another one of your mistaken racist theories. Studies show that Blacks have an IQ score on average of 14 points lower than whites. Now these IQ test are based on 1000 years of white rule and white privilege. Whites have used the same educational studies for over a thousand years. Blacks were not introduced to such mathematics, English, physics, geography, etc but a mere 160 years ago when whites allowed them to learn how to read and write. Along the way during that 160 years Blacks had to fight tooth and nail to get a decent education without white interference but they persevered and regardless of the valiant (sarcasm) attempt of whites Blacks still got their education, even if it was with outdated books, text without half the pages, squalor conditions in their schools and so on. Meanwhile whites went to their air conditioned schools, ate their heated lunches, went home to their tutors, read their brand new text books and so on. So lets see, whites have had a 840 year head start on Blacks and we do know that this type of life experience follows each generation, so when you try to say skin color plays a role in IQ levels maybe you are right but I would think for such a superior race that a 840 year head start would give them a much higher score than only 14 points.
Now here is the kicker Biff…..Poverty has been proven to lower IQ levels on average 13 points. Which group of people are the poorest in America?…you guessed it, Blacks. So if you add the 13 points that poverty has taken from Blacks to their average score, what do you get? A virtual equal IQ score for white people and Black people. Now that 840 years of white education has really not done a DAMN THING! So tell me again who the superior group is? Remember there is no such thing as race in regards to color, there is only one race of man so thats another point that debunks your IQ theory, how can the same race be different, it can’t, only experience makes us different. Where were we born, how poor we were, how rich we were, how did our parents treat us, how much education have we had….etc. And there is zero doubt which group has had access to good and higher education. Right now college enrollment consist of 76% whites and only 6% Blacks…just another FACT proving the unbelievable inequality and discrimination in this country.
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@ biff
I do not ban people for being wilfully obtuse. If I did, as Sharina pointed out, you would have been banned long ago.
Being wilfully obtuse does not mean you disagree with me. It means that no matter how many times something is explained to you, you still keep missing the point, even though other people get it right away. It seems like a lack of reading comprehension, except that your grammar and vocabulary makes that unlikely. Thus “wilfully obtuse” and not just “obtuse” or “stupid”. It is like under certain circumstances you just turn off your brain.
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@ biff
Why do you believe the grand jury decision but not the O.J. verdict? You seem to be applying a double standard.
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@ biff
What do you mean by “our civilization”?
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This is the big picture. This is civilization. Our civilization is in the process of collapsing. You don’t see that. If we are fortunate enough to be around for a while longer, though, I believe it will become unmistakable.
History is cyclical so what of it? Remember Rome?
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Re: Abagond’s statement
That is why gave up explaining anything to certain willfully obtuse commenters. It is a waste of time.
But I can understand why they are not banned. They serve a useful purpose.
#3
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/my-philosophy-on-trolls/)
But we could use a post explaining the different categories of “useful idiots”, ie, “willfully obtuse”, “willfully ignorant” and just plain old “obtuse”.
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abagond:
OK, I understand your definition. However, do you at least acknowledge that people with my way of thinking (with respect to Ferguson related events) could think that you and most blacks were being “willfully obtuse” no matter how many times we explained to you that there wasn’t anywhere near enough evidence to get a murder conviction with the majority of the witnesses supporting officer Wilson’s version of events?
If so, is it possible I am deemed willfully obtuse on this blog, but that you would be deemed willfully obtuse on a more mainstream blog?
The evidence in the OJ case was overwhelming (if the slow ride in the white bronco where OJ almost offed himself wasn’t the action of a guilty man, penning “If I did it: Confessions of the Killer” certainly was.) If the majority of the numerous witnesses said Michael Brown clearly tried to surrender before being gunned down, I absolutely would support a conviction, but they didn’t. I don’t see why that difference is so difficult for you to understand.
“our civilization” is Western civilization.
Herneith, Rome is actually a very apt comparison. Read up about the sexual perversion of Nero, including his same sex/transsexual marriage. When every kind of perversion is hailed as virtue, as it is in the West today, the end is near.
As you imply, maybe there will be a new beginning out there someday and somewhere, but the possibility of another Dark Age is not fun to contemplate, especially seeing a once great society that has lost the will to survive… also, nuclear destruction is a possibility this time around.
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Read up about the sexual perversion of Nero, including his same sex/transsexual marriage.
I’ve read Suetonius, ‘The Twelve Caesars’, the National Inquirer of the Roman World, Tacitus was a bit dry but had a ‘hardon’ for Both Caligula and Nero.
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As you imply, maybe there will be a new beginning out there someday and somewhere, but the possibility of another Dark Age is not fun to contemplate, especially seeing a once great society that has lost the will to survive… also, nuclear destruction is a possibility this time around.
Think of it as taking a laxative. American society/civilization, hasn’t been around that long when placed on the historical continuum. In fact it is just a blip. I am hoping aliens land on earth and intervene personally.
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Aliens did land thousands of years ago; they cross bred with a certain animal and thats where white people came from.
What other people are allergic to the sun?
Eskimos?
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@ George Ryder
It’s spelled with a ‘k’. It’s spelled ‘Yakub’ (not Yacob). Arabic for “Jacob”. I guess it’s like spelling “O’Riley” instead of O’Reilly, right?
Ryde on, Jorge! Oops, my bad, homeboy, it’s ride on, George!!
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@biff…..”If the majority of the numerous witnesses said”
Biff no one has heard from the witness’s yet except the Grand Jury and they have not said one word to the press yet, where do you get your information about what the witness’s said because I can show you video evidence of construction workers saying the exact opposite moments after the events?
By the way, can anyone explain to me how to post a video or webpage so that everyone can see what i am talking about?
Please also explain to me why the L.A. planted evidence? If one officer was caught planting the glove, why could they have not taken blood from the scene and rub it on O.J.’s car, his clothes, etc…after all they went directly to his house and gained entrance with no witness’s to verify their stories. They had the house all to themselves. Once the authorities are proven to be corrupt you have to throw out all the evidence, none of the evidence can be corroborated now. There was not one witness to the death of Nicole Simpson.
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@thwack……”Aliens did land thousands of years ago; they cross bred with a certain animal and thats where white people came from.”
Actually that makes a lot of sense, half of us don’t get along with the rest of the world, they feel superior to the rest of the world, we are closer to little grey men from mars than anyone else, are bodies are clearly inferior in regards to surviving on Terra firma, for a planet this close to the sun are pigmentation makes little sense, we seem to be hellbent on destroying the planet and moving on to the next. Wow Thwack I think you might be on to something…except that makes me an Alien, Damn!
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I don’t have a problem with whites calling this system “their civilization”. After all, they’ve created the just-us system just for themselves. Nonetheless, I guess they consider it a coincidence that the places that they hold up as early examples of “their civilization” are all towards the South of Europe (eg. Cordoba on the Iberian Peninsula as well as Greece and Rome) and owe much to swarthy people from the continent of Africa. It’s just a coincidence that they have yanked the Nile Valley civilization out of Africa in order to account for ‘civilization’. [Yes there were eventually Greek rulers of Egypt (eg. the Ptolemies) but that makes ancient Egypt un-African about as much as it makes ancient Tenochtitlan (Aztecs) Spanish.] Why are they creeping South to look for ‘civilization’? Show us the ancient places up in the ice that everyone was bundling up from head to toe to visit and learn from! If history is cyclical let it roll.
As for the origin of white people, the last time I checked the prevailing scientific opinion was that their existence in areas of lower sunllight resulted in selective pressure towards loss of pigment for better vitamin D synthesis. Yet, as you may know, the main purpose of vitamin D is to regulate calcium and phosphorus levels for strong bones and teeth. So given the supposed benefit of pale skin for vitamin D synthesis what is this about?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2579645/
“Black girls had lower serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D [25(OH)D], higher serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D, and higher calcium absorption and retention than White girls. Calcium intake and race, but not serum 25(OH)D, predicted net calcium absorption and retention with Black girls absorbing calcium more efficiently at low calcium intakes than White girls.”
Note that the quote below is also from a page on nlm.nih.gov but I don’t want to trigger moderation with too many links:
“The 25-hydroxy vitamin D test is the most accurate way to measure how much vitamin D is in your body. In the kidney, 25-hydroxy vitamin D changes into an active form of the vitamin. The active form of vitamin D helps control calcium and phosphate levels in the body.”
I’ll add that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D is the active form alluded to above but not directly named. So with those two pieces of information we can restate the study as claiming that Black girls have lower levels of the inactive form the vitamin D than white girls, yet higher levels of the active form and better calcium absorption as a result. So the higher blood concentrations of the inactive form in the white girls didn’t seem particulary relevant or advantageous.
The study goes on to say:
“American Black adolescents have higher calcium absorption and bone accretion than White adolescents (6). American Black children have higher bone mass than American White children (7,8) Despite higher bone mass and calcium utilization, vitamin D status is typically lower in Black children”
And concludes:
“These results suggest that serum 25(OH)D does not contribute to the racial differences in calcium absorption and retention during puberty.”
So despite dark’s skin’s supposed disadvantage for vitamin D synthesis, it doesn’t matter where it should since black people still have denser bones and lower osteoporosis risk. So I’m not buying the whole “white people lost their color over generations as a result of selection pressure so they could synthesize vitamin D more efficiently in low sunlight”. The greater concentration of the precusor form is not translating to higher concentrations of the active form and denser bones. So what’s the benefit? Selection pressure is about selection for actual, tangible survival advantages not abstract notions like “higher concentration of 25(OH)D”. Denser bones that are less likely to break is, however, a tangible survival advantage. Higher risk of skin cancer due to exposure to sunlight is not.
Therefore I consider it a puzzle that “a race” of white people actually exists. Being pale confers few, if any, natural advantages and reproduction in a non-selective manner can eliminate them since the children will keep inheriting pigmentation. Possibly, the best explanation for the phenomenon is selective breeding which whites continue to do in the knowledge that they’ll disappear if they don’t. “Assimilation is Annihilation” amirite? While it’s unpopular, the history of white people as a selective breeding experiment is at least as plausible as the notion that natural conditions spontaneously selected disadvantageous, if fascinating, traits.
*No insult intended to any white posters but anyone who has color and a brain is going to research this “white supremacy” we keep hearing about and experiencing throughout life. IMO, the emperor has no clothes.
Anyway, this is so off-topic but there’s no way I’m going to waste all that typing. So, back on topic, cops need to stop shooting with impunity. There’s a Florida man, Roy Middleton, who was shot up in his own driveway after someone called police suspecting he was a carjacker. The grand jury also declined to indict those officers. Police are dangerously empowered to kill or maim you.
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@ Biff
1. If the evidence was so overwhelming, then why was OJ found not guilty?
If O.J. Simpson got off because he could afford good lawyers, then why does the same not apply to Darren Wilson, who had something better than money: a country prosecutor on his side?
Or if O.J. Simpson got off because the jury was mostly Black, then why does the same not apply to Darren Wilson, whose grand jury was mostly White?
Why does a grand jury exonerate Wilson but a jury trial (which, unlike a grand jury, actually determines guilt) not exonerate OJ?
2. If the Bronco chase is an admission of guilt in the case of OJ, then why is the abuse of power by McCulloch and the police not an admission of guilt in the case of Darren Wilson? This is what I meant when I said you could tell Wilson was guilty from a mile away.
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I would like to point to the overwhelming evidence against Darren Wilson and the Ferguson police department.
1. Ferguson police department was under investigation for the abuse of civil rights against the Black community prior to the shooting.
2. Ferguson police made 5,400 stops and 611 searches, 86 percent of the time the cars driver was Black and 92 percent of the searches were done on Black drivers. Blacks make up 67% of the population in Ferguson. That is a 9 to 1 ratio. This is extremely important circumstantial evidence in such a case.
3. Moments/seconds after the shooting several witness’s are caught on camera yelling to the cops that he had his hands up and wanted to know why the cop had to shoot.
4. Michael Brown was unarmed…(smoking gun!!!).
5. Michael Brown was 18 and according to character witness’s has never done anything like this before, if he had he would be in jail right now, Michael Brown has never been to prison or jail.
6. Darren Wilson says he was attacked, he was going to be killed. Photos of the officer show absolutely ZERO signs of an altercation.
7. According to the prosecutor, which he oddly explains many times during the press conference, the witness’s changed their stories several times, almost as if they were being manipulated by an interviewer who uses certain extremely effective techniques that confuse and lead the witness to the interviewers preferred outcome.
8. THE PROSECUTOR IN CHARGE OF FINDING THE OFFICER GUILTY IS THE SUPERVISOR OF THE VERY COP WHO COMMITTED THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE.
I am sure there is much more but there is plenty of evidence here to at least bring it to a jury but prosecutors never indict one of their own and if they do would you please find me proof of that?
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5. Michael Brown has never been to prison or jail.
—————————————————————————-
and he wasn’t about to let no punk a** white pu**y cop take him to one.
*keepin it real*
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@William the Conqueror
“Michael Brown was unarmed”—I will say that an unarmed person can be dangerous, but in this case the bruises on Wilson do not seem to go along with any real “danger” that would case some life fear.
“According to the prosecutor, which he oddly explains many times during the press conference, the witness’s changed their stories several times, almost as if they were being manipulated by “—When reading the transcripts I found it odd that he interviewed those that did not corroborate Wilson’s story more than once. Where as those that did he appeared to only interview once.
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abagond:
I will respond to your questions below:
“1. If the evidence was so overwhelming, then why was OJ found not guilty?”
Because Mark Fuhrman lied about using the “N” word, and the mostly black jury wanted to punish the cops. To be honest would destroy Fuhrman’s career too. So he lied about that, but no way he could have planted all of the detailed evidence involved and was able to control all the lab work that took place.
“If O.J. Simpson got off because he could afford good lawyers, then why does the same not apply to Darren Wilson, who had something better than money: a country prosecutor on his side?”
No overwhelming evidence has been presented that Wilson was guilty. If witnesses are changing their stories or whatever, they are still witnesses. When most of the witnesses support the cop, rather than the robber, there’s just no way to convict the cop. If there is some massive cover up and hiding of witnesses, the media would go crazy over that (someone could sell their story to a major media outlet for hundreds of thousands of dollars). It hasn’t happened yet. There’s no evidence of suppressed witnesses.
“Or if O.J. Simpson got off because the jury was mostly Black, then why does the same not apply to Darren Wilson, whose grand jury was mostly White?”
It could potentially, but again there was no overwhelming evidence that DW committed murder in the first place that the public is aware of.
“Why does a grand jury exonerate Wilson but a jury trial (which, unlike a grand jury, actually determines guilt) not exonerate OJ?”
Because in the OJ case, the prosecution’s evidence was overwhelming, and it is pretty clear that Mark Fuhrman being a racist was the key to getting OJ off. Maybe some unwarranted reason for letting Wilson off also exists, but no jurors have yet come forward to identify this.
“2. If the Bronco chase is an admission of guilt in the case of OJ, then why is the abuse of power by McCulloch and the police not an admission of guilt in the case of Darren Wilson? This is what I meant when I said you could tell Wilson was guilty from a mile away.”
Most people don’t see this as abuse of power. The grand jury hearing was forced by the MSM’s relentless dogging of this case, even after it emerged that Mr. Brown was a drugged up robber attacking a cop, that he was not shot in the back as the robbery accomplice had said, and that most witnesses (other than the robbery accomplice) basically supported Wilson’s story.
Look, it’s possible that there’s a conspiracy and most of the witnesses were somehow lying and Mr. Brown was in fact executed with his hands up. We didn’t get to see the grand jury trial. However, there was a very long deliberation going on. With the OJ trial, we got to see everything, and there was a not guilty verdict issued in 4 hours. It was pretty clear the jury in that case couldn’t have taken the time necessary to weigh through the evidence.
At the end of the day, though, juries are going to give cops the benefit of the doubt when they are confronting criminal assailants. As I’ve previously explained, there are good reasons for this. Otherwise, we get dudes who feel like if they are bigger than the cop go ahead and attack him, since he won’t be able to shoot you.
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To the commenters who are not so willfully obtuse:
If ever there was a perfect specimen for willful obtuseness. 😛
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Biff….I think you missed Abagonds point but in the process you also proved his point as well. No one said O.J. was innocent, his point was to prove that jurys get it wrong all the time or can be influenced for all sorts of reasons. An all white jury probably will always side with the officer because they are so brainwashed about law enforcement and believe that a cop would never lie, however there is case after case proving that they will lie if it means saving their ass every time. It has been proven that 13% of the people on death row are innocent and the numbers may be much higher due to the inability to retry each case. The O.J. case had expensive lawyers and a racist cop planting evidence. The Ferguson case had the very department accused of the shooting doing the investigation and prosecuting, how will we ever know for sure if the prosecutor did what he had to in order to get an indictment or that he purposely tanked the case. Remember, the prosecutor could instruct the jury with one word and change the entire outcome of their decision. In the process though you even made up scenarios and refused to see the correlation. However you seem to, let me use your word, deify Ferguson cops and when you make your assumptions about each case there is clear bias as you glorify Darren Wilson case and vilify the O.J. case. You did exactly what Abagond thought you would do. The O.J. jury looked at all of the evidence and found him not guilty and in the midst of this trial the world learned that yet another cop was corrupt and racist and planted evidence. Why would you not say to yourself, “Hey, I still think O.J. probably did it but with a racist cop planting evidence how can any of us be sure that what they found was legitimate.” The entire trial was compromised and the only way you would be 100% sure is that you were either there that night with Nicole and Ron or your opinion is compromised or biased. The law must be true and just or we the people must hold it accountable for the integrity of the system. Again I have not heard one person in favor of an indictment say Michael Brown was innocent, nor has anyone denied he acted foolishly but he never should have been shot…tazed or maced but not rittled with bullets. Again Biff lets remember one more time about the two jurors….O.J. jurors had to agree unanimously in order for a verdict, Wilson only needed 4 jurors on his side to beat the indictment since it take 9 yes votes for an indictment…so the O.J. case was much harder to win than a loaded deck Wilson was working with…
Sharinar read the transcripts and made a very interesting point, “When reading the transcripts I found it odd that he interviewed those that did not corroborate Wilson’s story more than once. Where as those that did he appeared to only interview once.”
I was suspecting this the moment he mentioned interviewing people that changed their account several times. Sounds like the prosecutor knew exactly what he was doing and he was “Leading” the witness’s to an acquittal.
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Not the first time
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-roissy-syndrome/)
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nice cite, jefe. BTW, CH is the successor to Roissy, which is why I thought CH should be familiar to people here. It’s rumored now that more than one person may be involved with the site, but no one really knows. Now “Roissy” and “CH” are used interchangeably in many contexts.
The original post from Roissy is touching. A little sad that this young black female apparently didn’t want a relationship and was basically using Roissy for fun, but it seems that Roissy was able to view it positively and still has fond memories, so he didn’t take it personally when he was used and objectified.
It’s like many of the people here have an idea that if they could just explain “xyz” clearly enough other people would just agree with them. As if no one else might have thought through the issues and come to a different conclusion. So anyone who hears the arguments and still disagrees must be playing dumb.
My point is that the evidence we DO KNOW doesn’t lend credence to the idea that MB was MURDERED. I don’t expect blacks to be happy when someone in their community is killed, especially when it’s not clear if the killing was 100% necessary. However, to make this a national cause is ridiculous. It makes the backers look bad. It’s like, is this the best you can do to showcase injustice in the system, a guy who got shot after robbing a store and yelling profanity at and attacking a cop who came to investigate?
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Biff….just like the thousands of other cases involving young Black men and law enforcement this one has many people shaking their heads and saying, “not again”! Again the protesting and the rioting is less about the evidence of this case and more about the system and it’s horrible bias. The system is broken, the system is racist, the system is corrupt (at least morally). In 2013 only 27 law enforcement officers lost their lives from violence. However cops are shooting people left and right and most of them are unarmed and Black. The crime rate has dropped every year for the last 20 years since Clinton signed the three strikes law. My question to you is this; crime is lower than it was in the 60’s, less criminals are on the streets than ever, cops getting killed in the line of duty is very rare and they never get killed by an unarmed person….Where is all the fear coming from in regards to using deadly force? Everybody saw the New York case. For the love of God this man stood there and put his hands in the air and made sure he did not touch an officer, he did not flee, he did not resist arrest in any way except verbally….and the cop still killed him with an ILLEGAL CHOKE HOLD. The choke hold was deemed illegal for the very fact that it was KILLING people. So the video shows everything, the evidence was overwhelming as it showed a non aggressive suspect being taken down by an aggressive cop with an illegal choke hold. 1 + 1 = 2, am I right? Well choke hold + Death = negligence/murder.
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PBS NewsHour read through 500 pages of the grand jury testimony. They found that most witnesses said:
1. Wilson fired on Brown when he was running away.
2. Wilson fired on Brown when he had his hands up.
Darren Wilson never denied that either was true!!!
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/newly-released-witness-testimony-tell-us-michael-brown-shooting/
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Some have suggested that whites stop policing black areas. Well that was tried after the Cincinnati race riots of 2001. After that white cops just refused to go into black areas. It was called “The Cincinnati Solution”, google it. So what happened? Black on black crime skyrocketed.
So the reality is blacks are between a rock and a hardplace. They don’t want to be policed by whites because of fear of racism and police brutality, but in the absence of those cops, the disproportionate amount of black crime rears its head and the victims are going to be black by and large. So choose your poison.
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Tulio…..Like so many before you, you seem to have a lack of morality when it comes to people who are different from you. This is about fairness and equality. There is not one Black person I know who would choose the side of an honest cop over a true criminal. Black people don’t want criminals in their neighborhoods anymore than white people do. Black people just want the police to respect them and show them the same restraint and professionalism that they show to whites.
These are the facts and they are indisputable as they come from the law enforcement community. Blacks are pulled over by cops 4 to 1 more times than whites. Blacks are searched more times than are whites. Blacks are shot by police more than whites given the exact same situations. Blacks are beaten more time than whites. Again these are mostly non violent, innocent many times, normal everyday citizens driving down the street. Cops are scared of Blacks with absolutely zero evidence for this. Cops rarely get shot or killed in the line of duty and less than 1% of cops killed in the line of duty are killed by Black men. How is that for your numbers, whites kill more cops than Blacks.
Here are a few comments from an article from the Chicago Tribune every American should be outraged about:
“According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, in 2013 there were 461 “justifiable homicides” by police — defined as “the killing of a felon by a law enforcement officer in the line of duty.” In all but three of these reported killings, officers used firearms.
The true number of fatal police shootings is surely much higher, however, because many law enforcement agencies do not report to the FBI database. Attempts by journalists to compile more complete data by collating local news reports have resulted in estimates as high as 1,000 police killings a year. There is no way to know how many victims, like Brown, were unarmed.
By contrast, there were no fatal police shootings in Great Britain last year. Not one. In Germany, there have been eight police killings over the past two years. In Canada — a country with its own frontier ethos and no great aversion to firearms — police shootings average about a dozen a year.”
Another thing you should know is that 67% of the prison population is white and whites commit more crime in America than any other group, so if you were trying to ambiguously say Blacks commit more crime than whites you should be aware of some other numbers than point to other factors which play a large role in such matters. Quite simply, having darker or lighter skin cannot determine character or social behavior, only past and present experiences can do that.
The American justice system and law enforcement community is 400 years overdue for a complete overhaul. It is extremely broken, no other developed country guns down it’s people when they are unarmed, innocent, mistaken for a MONSTER (sarcasm) or even guilty. A young mans life is worth much more than a bag of cheap cigars and no the people would not be upset if a shoplifter got away from the cops if it meant he wouldn’t be shot dead.
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Interesting that Tulio presents one of two acceptable scenario choices for blacks.
1) No police protection at all.
or
2) Police protection from racist white killer / brutal cops.
What happened to the choice that William the Conqueror suggested, ie, Public Security protection from “police who respect them and show them the same restraint and professionalism that they show to whites. “?
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@ Jefe
I saw it as one of those scare tactics that some people use to scare blacks into accepting meager things or to not complain. Kind of like the whole Africa thing.
Speaking of did anyone see Trevor Noah on the daily show. Quite interesting skit.
(http://youtu.be/AHO1a1kvZGo)
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@Sharinalr….”Speaking of did anyone see Trevor Noah on the daily show. Quite interesting skit.”
Thank you sweety I just watched it, funny AND true…
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@ William the Conqueror
You are most welcome.
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@William the Conquerer and @Jefe
I am a black man. Why have I never been unfairly pulled over the police, or beaten or shot? Why have none of my close black male friends had this happen? Why has my father never had this happen even once in his 64 year old life?
You know the answer? Because all the above people know how to behave. How often is a black person just minding his own business, not resisting arrest, not in the act of a crime, not fighting the cops who ends up getting beaten or executed for nothing? Does anyone have any actual hard data on this rather than anecdotes? Because there’s too much room for cognitive bias. How many thoroughly innocent black people per thousand can expect to be beaten or killed by cops? Now let’s compare that to the amount killed by black on black crime. Yet the latter doesn’t get 1/100th the outpouring of grief and anger.
As it happens, I think NYC cop that put the choke hold should go to trial. Since that hold was clearly illegal. I do not think however that the cop intended to kill him as that hold does not normally kill people. Garner was also in poor health so that was a contributing factor to why the hold killed him. I don’t think it was first degree homicide. A proper charge would probably be involuntary manslaughter rather than 1st degree murder.
In the case of Michael Brown, that situation was entirely his own doing. I think the ballistic and forensic evidence corroborates Wilson’s story. I don’t see how anyone that’s fairly looking at the evidence with an open mind can come to the conclusion that Michael Brown was an innocent victim. Anyone that believes that I can’t even take them seriously. I think we as black people have unfortunately wasted a lot of political capital on defending a young man who was thug. A violent, impulsive neighborhood thug who would be alive today if he hadn’t decided to launch an unprovoked assault against an armed officer and tried to take his gun. I guarantee you any white person that walked up to an officer and physically assaulted him and tried to snatch his gun away would end up dead as well. It’s called suicide by cop.
I don’t think the Garner and Brown cases are comparable. The circumstances that led up to them were entirely different. The only thing they have in common is a white cop and black person that ended up dead, but that’s where the similarity ends.
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@Tulio
You really need to try getting outside of your box. Just because your circle has passed by the opportunity to be a police punching bag does not mean all the world is filled with good cops that are misunderstood. It also does not mean the people being beaten are misbehaving.
“Does anyone have any actual hard data on this rather than anecdotes? “—So you can provide anecdotes, but no one can? So this is basically a way of limiting anyone else in what they can provide and respond? hmmm…..
“Yet the latter doesn’t get 1/100th the outpouring of grief and anger.”—I am curious on where you hard data is for this. Do you regularly assume what other black people feel or think?
“I think the ballistic and forensic evidence corroborates Wilson’s story.”—Actually some of the needed evidence was not collected, so I will suppose you mean what was actually collected corroborates him. Even that does not because most of the evidence can be seen as ambiguous in nature.
“A violent, impulsive neighborhood thug who would be alive today if he hadn’t decided to launch an unprovoked assault against an armed officer and tried to take his gun.”—What proof do you have that he attacked the officer? And I do mean other than Wilson’s words. And don’t worry because the evidence does not support or hurt him in that case.
“I guarantee you any white person that walked up to an officer and physically assaulted him and tried to snatch his gun away would end up dead as well.”—Would you like some evidence on that? There are not numbers but I can name a few cases and so could others.
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Tulio…..the jury is still out if you are truly are who you say you are but answer me this, because you have not experienced this behavior does that mean that we are to discount every single other Black mans experience?
I am a white man and I can tell you with certainty that 50% of the white people you think are your friends are racist fools. My own family is what I would call mildly racist, mostly due to media and fear and the ever popular stupidity. Most of my friends from childhood are racist and most of the whites I have worked with over the years are racist, so tell me how unbelievably this has skipped the police department?
If I believe you are a Black man then you are one of the few that have not experienced this racism, especially since my entire life when Blacks are not around the racism flies. I have known 3 police officers in my life, 2 which are still active duty. 2 out of the 3 are insanely racist against blacks, one even telling stories on Thanksgiving of pulling over to harass Black homeless people and beating them and kicking them in the testicles over and over again so they could not reproduce.
You are blind if you think many of your white peers do anything but talk about you when you leave the room….I have a sneaky feeling that if you are Black then you have lived a life of privilege and if that is the case I say Good for you and your family because most Black people are not as lucky.
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Oh and Tulio, I actually have read the 500 pages of transcripts and I am not a news media type person, so I will know off bat if you are going by the news or by what was actually in the evidence.
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Tulio…..here are two officers trying to arrest a very large white guy, funny how they try every non lethal tactic and never once pull there guns and shoot this man dead……http://www.kappit.com/img/142095/this-white-man-was-literally-beating-up-two-police-officers-but-what-happens-next-is-astonishing/
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@William the Conqueror
Trust me when I say living a life of privilege does not make one naive. There are other factors that play into that type of thinking with black folks.
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@ Sharina
What are the other factors?
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@Abagond
I will elaborate later, but survival is the biggest factor in that naive thinking. Though I should have made it clear that it is not only black folks who do this, but more are appearing.
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@Tulio….I do want to back up and say that I do have some confidence in your words since you did mention the man in New York, which was a clear case of police brutality/negligence.
I also want to add some positive comments to all of my negative comments about white people and our society as a whole. I always include my experiences as a white person on this blog to bring honesty and TRUTH to what actually goes on out here because lets face it, Black people don’t trust white people enough to say what they mean around them and believe me when I tell you racist white people are not brave enough to say what they really feel around Black people. So when you have a blog like this you have one group saying this and the other saying that with no real information to rebuke the other except for studies and statistics. Because I get upset when I hear racist trying to twist the facts I sometimes generalize when adding to the conversation and this is wrong. I also make white people look horrible when in reality only a portion of white people are bad, just like most people. I would stand up for a oppressed white person just as quickly as I would a oppressed Black person. It is my fellow human beings, morality and equality that I fight for, not the color of a mans skin, it just happens that the world has long ago labeled Black men less than white men and now we are here and I will not ignore it and look the other way.
I have to say this about my experiences, as the years have passed the amount of racist whites I have encountered have lessened and the times are changing. The young people of today are more tolerant and color blind than any other time in history. I have even been called a racist myself by younger bloggers who literally had no idea what I was talking about when I called their political comedy blog racist. They just don’t see color like people my age and older, this is awesome. So even though my presence here is almost always going to be about racism and the white supremacist society that created it, I do this to make sure that we continue to move in a positive direction. After all, if it weren’t for brave Black people and Liberal white people this country would still be living in the 19th century and lets hope that whenever there is brutality, no matter who the people are or what group we label them there will always be people who stand up against such abuse.
Tulio I don’t think there is one person that says Michael Brown was innocent of shoplifting and even possibly struggling with the cop, but what this event was is a huge imbalance of power and brutality towards the Black community. If we take the sum parts of our society and every single statistic comes up with discrimination, racism and a huge disparity in police brutality then there is only one conclusion, where there is smoke there is fire and one Black man discounting all of the videos, all of the witness’s, all of the civil cases and all of the complaints is not proof of anything but one mans lucky life. You want some proof, statistics, here you go…
Here is a paragraph from an article that is extremely eye opening, please if you have time please read……
“According to a study by the St. Louis nonprofit Better Together, Ferguson receives nearly one-quarter of its revenue from court fees; for some surrounding towns it approaches 50 percent. Municipal reliance on revenue generated from traffic stops adds pressure to make more of them. One town, Sycamore Hills, has stationed a radar-gun-wielding police officer on its 250-foot northbound stretch of Interstate.
With primarily white police forces that rely disproportionately on traffic citation revenue, blacks are pulled over, cited and arrested in numbers far exceeding their population share, according to a recent report from Missouri’s attorney general. In Ferguson last year, 86 percent of stops, 92 percent of searches and 93 percent of arrests were of black people—despite the fact that police officers were far less likely to find contraband on black drivers (22 percent versus 34 percent of whites). This worsens inequality, as struggling blacks do more to fund local government than relatively affluent whites…..”http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/the-racist-housing-policies-that-built-ferguson/381595/
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@ Abagond
Two factors I have seen that play into that type of naive thinking is survival and the need to be seen as acceptable by white people.
Blacks and other groups view whites as being on top and the best way to “make it” so to speak is to to act and think like them. If they see certain things as unacceptable then you must see it that way as well. My uncle is a prime example of this behavior. When around us he will talk about black racism all day, but catch him with some white friends or clients and he will go on and on about how blacks need to do xyz. He knows his business and family livelihood relies on those white clients and as such he must play the part that he must to ensure he still has a business to provide for his family. I wager a lot of blacks do this, but usually only around whites. I am certain over time it turns into them believing that bs because they escaped the mistreatment others have.
With white acceptance some blacks need to feel loved or accepted by white people. They need to be seen as that good black person. That “reasonable” and “smart” black person according to white people. I have a “friend” like this and during the Mike Brown case she posted something on facebook and followed up with “see not all black folks think alike”. She had to declare her “unbiased” and “logical” thinking to her white friends. She needed to show she was not like those black people.
These are factors that play into that naive thinking that come across the board and do not just happen in privileged families. Think about all the Youtube blacks chastising blacks. Few of them are privileged, yet all of them carry that same naive thinking. Now there most certainly could be more factors, but those are the two I honed in on.
And yes I could be completely off base, but I am sure you will let me know.
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Another factor I would like to add is experience with white people. I mention this because I read a discussion on why African’s see black Americans the way they do or something like that. One person mentioned that due to Africans experience with whites generally being that they are helping them and thus they see them in a kind and caring light. In that case a person will take on the idea that any wrongs or mistreatment is due to blacks being lazy or not doing xyz instead of the idea that the mistreatment has to do with them being black. The idea becomes they brought it on themselves.
@ William
I wish I knew how to do a thumb up, but I guess I will settle for this 🙂
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@Sharina
yep, to all that. I’ve seen it up close and personal. It smells more like internalized racism, self hate. So certain black folk (ie.Uncle Ruckus’, Don Lemons, & etc.) feel like they will be apart of the honorary white club if they fall in line with their conservative white friends. What a sad existence to be a egg-shell of a person to just fall in line with the white mindset.
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Sharinalr….I totally agree with you and the type of relationship you speak of between a white conservative and their wanna be Black counterparts is extremely disappointing and insights me to anger. This is where the white arrogant conservative reverts back to his/her slave owner bloodline and feels that superiority when Blacks try to emulate them, as if they are the example of the “Proper Human Existence”.
I don’t fault any individual for wanting to act white or Black if that is truly who they feel comfortable being but if they are doing it because they want to be accepted by their white conservative friends or coworkers then it disturbs me and I get into my anti white racist mood.
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@ Lifelearner
It is certainly good to know others have witnessed this.
“It smells more like internalized racism, self hate. So certain black folk (ie.Uncle Ruckus’, Don Lemons, & etc.) feel like they will be apart of the honorary white club if they fall in line with their conservative white friends. What a sad existence to be a egg-shell of a person to just fall in line with the white mindset.—I agree. I use to always see it as self hate and internalized racism until I took a little bit more time to understand the reasoning behind such behavior. Many don’t hate being black, at least not in the early stages.
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@William the Conqueror
“I don’t fault any individual for wanting to act white or Black if that is truly who they feel comfortable being but if they are doing it because “—-I agree and I don’t fault them either, but it is not just white conservatives they do this for and I believe kiwi addressed this in a response to you. It is white liberals as well. Typically it is white anyone of any party.
I grew up around white people and the only blacks in my life at the time was family. Even going to school I had one black friend and everyone else was either lily white or mixed. I never got along with black students (most I talked to were associates) so for a long time in my mind I had a bad taste in my mouth for black people. Realistically the experience with white people factor applies to me. Very toxic line of thinking, especially once I got my wake up call.
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@Kiwi
Oddly enough when I submitted this you came to mind. I knew it was very likely that you had experienced much of this from reading your comment on Asian women. Plus from my experience I have always felt the actions of Asians were for the purpose of survival more than anything else. As Lifelearner pointed out, it looks like self-hate but many of the Asians I have encountered don’t hate being Asian. They don’t hate their culture, but like anyone else they do want to up their standing in this society. I have no doubt that if Asian men were viewed the same as white men then there would be less white men/Asian women marriages.
“That said, I have no difficulty believing that Tulio is black.”—I don’t either but I get why William would think so. He seems to separate himself from blacks in his comment, which would make it appear as if he is not black at all. Though I can always guarantee that when it comes to having black on black crime rallies none of these people can even be found, but wait……they will most certainly bring out the black on black crime stats.
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Sharinalr and Kiwi…thank you for enlightening me, the more I know the less ignorant I can be moving forward, so I appreciate any life experiences one has to share.
…”The reason I was able to see through it is that I could imagine myself saying the same thing if I were black and still had the mindset I had years ago.”
I think that one thing most of the good people in the room have in common is that we can put ourselves in others positions and ask ourselves how would we like it or we feel empathy for that person, group, gender, etc. It is a blessing to have such abilities, I believe this is the ability that most bigots and apathetic people lack.
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@Kiwi
“It’s not like I have not met tons upon tons of other Asians who hated their own culture. “—-Of those that you have found that hate their culture, are they second and third generation?
@William the Conqueror
Anytime. We are all here to learn.
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@ William the Conqueror
—
Tulio…..here are two officers trying to arrest a very large white guy, funny how they try every non lethal tactic and never once pull there guns and shoot this man dead……http://www.kappit.com/img/142095/this-white-man-was-literally-beating-up-two-police-officers-but-what-happens-next-is-astonishing/
—
We can all cherry pick examples that support our claims: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t810gKZI4iU)
According to many, this black man should be dead. And by the way, more whites have died by police fire than blacks. So if there’s an epidemic of white cops killing blacks there must be one on whites as well. From 1999 to 2011, 2,151 whites were killed by cops vs 1,130 blacks. Of course on a per capita basis blacks were killed at a higher rate, but then violent crime is also committed by blacks at a far higher rate than whites as well so that has to be factored in.
(aside – your video is evidence that tazers are often don’t work against large people, since many were claiming that Michael Brown should’ve been tazed instead, despite the fact that Wilson didn’t have a tazer on him)
—
Tulio…..the jury is still out if you are truly are who you say you are but answer me this, because you have not experienced this behavior does that mean that we are to discount every single other Black mans experience?
—
I’ve not discounted anyone else’s claims of police brutality. What right would I have to do that? If you look closely at what I originally said, my point is that the people in my “lucky” circle actually aren’t lucky, it’s that everyone behaves themselves and knows how to deal with cops if pulled over. That’s not justifying illegal behavior by the police by any means. I’m just saying it’s staggeringly rare these days that a black person is just going to be beat or murdered by cops while minding their own business. It usually takes a lot of escalation before it gets to that point. Michael Brown had to really go out of his way to end up getting shot that day. There’s really no point in getting dramatic with a cop, because there’s no way you’re going to come out on top. Just comply in the moment and save your fighting for the court.
—
You are blind if you think many of your white peers do anything but talk about you when you leave the room….I have a sneaky feeling that if you are Black then you have lived a life of privilege and if that is the case I say Good for you and your family because most Black people are not as lucky.
—
I don’t have many white friends, so it’s kind of irrelevent to me. I’d hardly say I’ve lived a life of privilege. I was raised in a pretty much lower/middle class family. We were comfortable enough but we weren’t the Huxtables either.
@sharinalr
—
What proof do you have that he attacked the officer? And I do mean other than Wilson’s words. And don’t worry because the evidence does not support or hurt him in that case.
—
You clearly did not follow the case or you’d know that Wilson had facial bruises from the punches. As well as witness accounts of the attack. That part isn’t even in dispute. The only part of the story where there is some dispute is whether Brown raised his hands to surrender or not. But even then, the trail of blood seems to corroborate Wilson’s story that he charged. Even if he had gotten an indictment, there wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell of him being found guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT of homicide. Because the evidence simply wasn’t strong enough to get a unanimous conviction in a criminal trial.
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@ Tulio
“You clearly did not follow the case or you’d know that Wilson had facial bruises from the punches.”—Oh I followed and had you then you would know he did not have bruises on his face but a red mark. Now I am no doctor but a red mark and bruises are two different things. There are pictures that indicate as such. That is also not a sign of Mike Brown attacked him as attacked indicates he was the aggressor and no one knows who was.
“As well as witness accounts of the attack.”—What witness accounted that? Most if not all of the witnesses are not aware of how the “attack” started. All they saw was a struggle in the car and not really so much from there if they even saw that. There is even a witness that said it looked like mike was pulling away and even one that just saw hands flying in the air, but none aware of who hands.
“The only part of the story where there is some dispute is whether Brown raised his hands to surrender or not.”—That is not the only part of the story that has disputes. (http://kansasexposed.org/2014/11/29/ku-journalism-major-shreds-case-against-mike-brown/)
“But even then, the trail of blood seems to corroborate Wilson’s story that he charged.”—-Did it? Do you mind providing that evidence/court document where it says the blood corroborates that he charged?
As to everything else you said, I really consider it pointless. It was just argument fluff. Bottom line is that you basically regurgitated what the news have. Which is fine, but be well aware not everyone is a media sheep and I do enjoy calling people on there bs.
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@ Sharina
I pretty much agree. What you and Kiwi say is sad but true.
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@Tulio….I don’t agree with your opinions because I know them to be true due to personal experience but I do appreciate your comments and your second post….Thank You.
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@Tulio and William
“From 1999 to 2011, 2,151 whites were killed by cops vs 1,130 blacks.”—-Using these numbers are reckless and only facilitate the half truth that the person who put them out intended to.
For staraters the CDC and other reports on police murders are limited and not reliable as not agencyclopedia is required to report and many don’t.
Secondly those numbers do not separate justifiable and unjustifiable killings. All are lumped in.
Thirdly the felony rate of poor whites are about the same as poor blacks. Using that data to say “it must be just blacks fault.” Is illogical and again reckless.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/aug/21/michael-medved/talk-show-host-police-kill-more-whites-blacks/
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*as an agency is not
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The real question that needs to be asked is…..if cops are getting the bad guys off the streets then why are ganggangs growing? Why are regular people getting shot and arrested for petty crimes but gang members are not going anywhere?
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@Everyone who commented……I think it is monumental that the U.N., an unbiased outside observer, has just placed the “United States of America” on the most brutalized or tortured list due to the shocking numbers of police shootings, beatings and deaths in custody, especially Black and Latino youth. These aren’t even the real numbers, most police shootings and deaths are not placed on a data base. There are just too many incidents to gather such evidence any other way. So here we have an organization that is almost always working with us on some level, stepping away and pointing out, with no dog in this fight, that we have one of if not the most brutal law enforcement systems in the world.
The U.N. has demanded an outside and SEPARATE investigations of all these deaths.
Here is a quote from the U.N. panel member Alessio Bruni:
“We recommend that all instances of police brutality and excessive use of force by law enforcement officers are investigated promptly, effectively and impartially by an independent mechanism,” said panel member Alessio Bruni in a statement. Bruni noted in particular “reported current police violence in Chicago especially against African-Americans and Latino young people.” According to the report, 20 investigations had been opened since 2009 into systematic police abuses and that more than 330 police officers had been prosecuted for brutality.
It’s a clear message: In the eyes of the UN — the international body that, though often ineffective and inconsistent, sets the standard for human dignity and decency — American police brutality is cruel and unusual punishment, the equivalent of torture.
And the United States has an epidemic on its hands.
I think this settles any argument that disputes the disparity between black and white suspects and how they are treated differently. It also settles any argument that blindly supports the view that law enforcement agency are not racist to some degree and that they are to always be trusted. It is true that police shootings and brutality affect all genders, all ages, all colors of people so this is not only a Black or Latino issue but a HUMAN ISSUE. The unbiased facts and the rest of the unbiased world prove this to be true.
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@William the Conqueror
“These aren’t even the real numbers, most police shootings and deaths are not placed on a data base.”—Exactly. There are not and I am guessing this is the case because there has been no issue. No real complaints until recently.
Wow. Do you have a link I can view on the UN statement?
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@Sharinelr…..sorry, I forgot to include the link. This is just an article about such a decision but it should help.
http://mic.com/articles/105376/the-un-just-issued-a-scathing-critique-of-america-s-justice-system
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Sharinalr…….
Here are some more regarding the U.N. critique of the U.S.:……
http://qz.com/303965/un-blasts-the-american-justice-system-in-torture-report/
http://truth-out.org/news/item/22887-un-human-rights-committee-finds-us-in-serious-violation
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/28/1348036/-UN-Committee-Against-Torture-Latest-to-Demand-Crackdown-on-Police-Brutality-in-US
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@sharinalr
—
Oh I followed and had you then you would know he did not have bruises on his face but a red mark. Now I am no doctor but a red mark and bruises are two different things. There are pictures that indicate as such. That is also not a sign of Mike Brown attacked him as attacked indicates he was the aggressor and no one knows who was.
—
You’re now splitting hairs. And it’s pointless. The only difference between a “red mark” and a bruise is a matter of degree. Bruises start as “red marks”. And this is all besides the point. Unless you believe Wilson was punching his own face, then Occam’s Razor says that the blows were delivered by Brown. Whether they left a red or purple mark, the story is the same, he was assaulted by Michael Brown.
—
What witness accounted that? Most if not all of the witnesses are not aware of how the “attack” started.
—
When the witnesses were asked “Did Michael Brown reach into or otherwise directly interact with the police car?” There were 12 witnesses that said yes, versus 3 that said no. Put that together with the marks on Wilson’s face and the forensic evidence of gun going off in the car and striking Brown’s hand and close-range gunpowder on Brown. Once again, Occam’s Razor.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/newly-released-witness-testimony-tell-us-michael-brown-shooting/
—
Did it? Do you mind providing that evidence/court document where it says the blood corroborates that he charged?
—
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-missouri-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.htm
“Officer Wilson fired 12 rounds, including two from the car and 10 more down the street, where Mr. Brown sustained at least six more wounds, including at his forehead and the top of his head, which suggested that his body was bent forward at the waist.
Mr. Brown’s body was about 153 feet east of Officer Wilson’s car. Mr. Brown’s blood was about 25 feet east of his body. This evidence supports statements that Mr. Brown continued to move closer to the officer after being hit by an initial string of bullets.”
^^^ Read the latter paragraph carefully. Once again, the physical evidence(vastly more reliable than witnesses) vindicate the officer’s side of the story. Sorry, it just does. I know everyone wanted to make Wilson the face of racism and police brutality but can we be objective and open minded about this case and perhaps consider the possibility that Wilson was NOT motivated by racism and that what his account may have very well been accurate.
And if you must know, I didn’t like the sight of whites collecting funds for Wilson damn near the day of the incident. The evidence hadn’t even been gathered and people were already convinced the officer was innocent. I didn’t make my mind up until I looked at the evidence released. On the flip side, you had people protesting this as a clear-cut case of police brutality given that the facts weren’t even in. People were even claiming he was shot in the back until the ballistics showed this was a lie. This type of circle-the-wagons naked tribalism(from both blacks and whites here) is what this country needs to move away from.
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@ William
Thanks for the links on the UN thing. I hope to do a post on it sometime this week.
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@ Abagond…..COOL, look forward to it. It really is the nail in the coffin in regards to the opposition. Game, set match!
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@Tulio
“You’re now splitting hairs. And it’s pointless. etc.”—-It is only pointless when you are trying to make a ridiculous claim. A “Red Mark” and a Bruise are not the same and a “red mark” does not always turn into a bruise. Those marks can come about in a number of ways and from the faintness of it he could have simply been flushed. Those are not indications of punches. The story is not the same as you are trying to making something fit your narrative. So it goes back to what I said. You have no real clue how he got those marks others than what he claims.I bruise easy so simply hitting a door will leave a mark. Doesn’t mean a person hit me.
“When the witnesses were asked “Did Michael Brown reach into or otherwise directly interact with the police car?” “—-See this is not an indication that the witnesses saw him attack the officer. I will read it again, but I will also address it as such. Interacting with the officer (which is not a dispute) and reaching in the car are two different things. Those 12 would have gotten a check for simply saying he interacted with him. And based on that sheet it really is only a 11 witnesses as Wilson should not be counted. Now because I never said he was not in the car or near it so you are reaching or assuming what I believe one.
Your final link does not pull up what you claim it does, but I am not partial to news media reports and they distort or lie about much. At any rate you claimed the evidence corroborate the idea that he charged toward Wilson. That is a flat out lie on your part and now you are trying to provide evidence of moving forward. You could of saved this one as I already said witnesses said that much.
“Read the latter paragraph carefully. Once again, the physical evidence(vastly more reliable than witnesses) vindicate the officer’s side of the story. Sorry, it just does. I know everyone wanted to make Wilson the face of racism and police brutality but can we be objective and open minded about this case and perhaps consider the possibility that Wilson was NOT motivated by racism and that what his account may have very well been accurate.”—–I read it very carefully and this final paragraph reflects a few things. A) you are using it to cover up a lie you original told. B) you are assuming what I think based on the inaccuracies I addressed with you.and C) you have no idea what those court documents say other than what the news tells you. Not only that I really am not interested in you fluffing arguments with emotional appeal of your journey to getting answers. It seeks to deflect from what you are claiming and I would rather focus on that matter.
“I didn’t make my mind up until I looked at the evidence released.”—But you didn’t look at that did you. You only really looked at what the news told you. Based on what you provided here says that much. So you can stop pretending to be the unbiased sole who gathered information first because like many who claimed this you only know what the media showed.
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@ Tulio
For starters there is not 12 separate witnesses that corroborate Wilson’s story as some of the witnesses were interviewed twice. You really only have a total of 9 that actually fit into that category. So I had time to look at each witness again and let’s clarify what they said.
Witness 10: Stated they were wrestling through the window when they saw. Did not state Brown reached in or that he attacked Wilson.
Witness 12 #1: States he saw arms exchange. Does not state Brown attacked Wilson nor that he saw Brown reach in.
Witness 12 #3: Was not sure what exchanged but something was going on at the car. Still not claiming Brown attacked Wilson nor did he see him reach in.
Witness 14 #1: States he saw them tussle in the car and was not sure if the officer grabbed him or the boy reached in.
Witness 14 #2: Again states was tussling in car and did not know if officer grabbed him or boy reached in.
Witness 16: Says she sees movement, but does not state Brown reached in or attacked Wilson.
Witness 32: Saw some type of commotion going on but was not sure. Did not state Brown reached in or Attacked Wilson.
Witness 34: Says tussle in vehicle, but like the others did not state Brown reached in or Attacked Wilson.
I could go through all, but let us just stick with these first. So let us revisit what you claimed “witness accounts of the attack.” Above none of these Witnesses account Brown attacking Wilson. Most of them have no clue how it started to say that. So it was a false claim on your part based solely on what the media told you. Again that is ok, but say so instead of trying to claim you looked at all the evidence. Your follow-up statements are nothing more than you back-peddling and rewording to avoid that false claims you first presented. All in all you really are trying to make a puzzle piece fit where it does not. Even many of the die hard Wilson fans are trying to claim “the evidence was just too ambiguous” or “the witnesses are untrustworthy.”
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@sharinalr
Oh brother…you keep going back to this “what the media told you” thing as if there’s some grand coverup.
So the strongest argument you can make is that it’s 9 vs 3 rather than 12 vs 3. Damn, you got me. Everything goes out the window! Lol.
I’m done here. Your mind is made up and at this point we’re just going in circles. Go ahead and believe that the Wilson pulled Brown inside his car. Go ahead and believe that Wilson’s facial bruises…oh excuse me, red marks were self-inflicted punches. Go ahead and believe that the gunpowder residue was planted on Brown by racist cops. Go ahead and believe that Brown was a complying, loving kid that was minding his own business and would never do anything violent to anyone. If it makes you feel better go ahead and suspend reality in the face of all evidence.
I’m out.
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@Tulio
“Oh brother…you keep going back to this “what the media told you” thing as if there’s some grand coverup.”—I don’t trust the media (which I said above) , but if you are going to make the claim that you looked at all the evidence then would it not make sense that the evidence you looked at actually be from court documents rather than what the news said?
“So the strongest argument you can make is that it’s 9 vs 3 rather than 12 vs 3. Damn, you got me. Everything goes out the window! Lol.”—No, I made several strong arguments to prove my point. You were so caught up in what you thought I believe that it went over your head. No worries.
“Go ahead and believe that the Wilson pulled Brown inside his car.”—I never said I believed that in not one of my statements. In fact if you read anything I said you will know I not once told you what I believe, so how is it you know what my mind is made up on? In fact all you have done is assume to the very end.
“If it makes you feel better go ahead and suspend reality in the face of all evidence.”—Based on what was presented that is more likely what you did.
I will tell you what I did though. I pointed out the basic irrationality in your statements and all without telling you not once what I think or believe in regards to this case. You made several claims you simply could not back up and once your back was against the wall you attempted basic back peddling, deflecting, and my all time favorite assuming. I was amused by the emotional appeal arguments you also attempted to use.;) Your argument simple was not strong enough. It was flawed and just because you believe it happened one way and a bunch of news nuts believe it too does not mean the evidence or anything else will magically fit your narrative. Next time actually read the evidence or at the very least the source you post.
But as a consolation prize for trying…..I believe the evidence is ambiguous.
Toodles
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First of all Wilson did not follow protocol. You don’t pull up to suspects and tell them to get the fuck out of the street.
Second of all you do not question suspects from the seat of your car and you don’t grab a suspect through the car window and you don’t get into a struggle with a suspect through the window over a few boxes of $3.00 cigars.
Third you do not shoot a teenager because he tried to get away from you and the most important point of all…..YOU DO NOT RUN AFTER AND GUN DOWN AN INJURED, SCARED, BLEEDING CHILD.
IT IS ALL A HUGE CONSPIRACY, AFTER ALL IN WHAT BACKWOODS, HILLBILLY WORLD DO THE PEOPLE WHO COMMIT THE CRIME GET TO LEAD THE INVESTIGATION AND PROSECUTE THEMSELVES.
The United Nations and the multinational world all agree that the U.S. law enforcement system and the justice system meet all the requirements of TORTURE AND BRUTALITY. It is no longer disputable when an unbiased entity such as the U.N. makes such a ruling, it is all the evidence and collaboration an argument needs to settle such debate.
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@William the Conqueror
I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic here or not. Is your post some kind of parody of the anti-Wilson camp?
Or do you ACTUALLY believe Wilson grabbed Brown and tried to pull him through a window and fought him over a box of cigars? Please tell me you’re joking here.
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@William
It could not have been over a box of cigars as Wilson did not know about them. Unless of course the story changed again.
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I read the testimony of his friend who was with him at the time of the event. The friend says michael had the cigars in one of his hands at the time Wilson screeched to a stop and said get the fuck out of the street. Obviously his testimony is a bit broken up as he was no doubt scared at the time as he was trying to remember while being questioned. Of all the testimonies I read this is the only one where the wirness was standing right in front of the event.
Tulio….Please tell me with the 1,000’s of instances of police lying and getting caught you believe that law enforcement is not capable of twisting the evidence. How come they didn’t question the construction workers who saw Michael put his hands up and said the officer gunned him down, what happened to that witness?
Besides it doesn’t matter what we argue about, the United Nations is now on board and agrees with those of us who know about these things first hand, that the American law enforcement community is a BRUTAL RACIST CRIMINAL organization.
However with that said my heart and my soul is with those officers who try to do a good job, save lives and do their best to work within that is clearly littered with bad human beings. I don’t know for sure if Wilson is one of these cops but I do know that he fucked up and shot an unarmed teenager because he was SCARED.
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……And yet another one of hundreds of cases of cops lying, tampering with evidence and beating a Black man. At one point the police were yelling loudly, so the dash cam recorder could pick up the audio of the officer saying, “stop trying to get my gun, stop trying to grab my gun!” As the officer says this the video clearly shows the suspects hands in the air as the cop tries to undo his seat belt. What was the cop trying to accomplish by yelling these false claims, was he trying to lay down some evidence in case they ended up shooting the innocent man. Is this a secret way for cops to beat these murders they have been committing? Do they yell these false claims every arrest to cover their asses if they get caught now that there are video cameras present?
I believe that the cops have a closed lip self training procedure to help them avoid prosecution when they beat or shoot a suspect or citizen. If you have ever watched cops take someone to the ground recently they always, and I mean ALWAYS yell stop resisting, EVEN WHEN THE PERSON IS OBVIOUSLY NOT RESISTING.
Well now they are yelling stop trying to grab my gun…..SOUND FAMILIAR? Wilson I believed used the very words to testify about what happened with Michael Brown. I have always said since day one, there is NO WAY an 18 year old boy who is Black and who has seen all the Black men the cops have killed lately is going to charge an officer and try to grab his gun and now we have clear proof that this is what officers are doing and saying during any arrest that involves a take down of sorts. You can’t hide from video evidence and that is why the cops don’t want to wear cameras, they don’t want to get caught!… (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQB7Ukd7gfk)
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http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2014/02/bloomfield_cops_face_misconduct_charges_after_second_dashboard_video_surfaces.html
Watching the video again they continue to say he was going for the gun when he was handcuffed on the ground on his stomach. They lied, the got rid of the first tape, they punched/kicked/crashed into his car/followed him
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The grand jurors are not allowed to talk about the hearing, which has allowed McCulloch to say whatever he wants about the hearing and redact the grand jury testimony as he sees fit.
One of the jurors, with the help of the ACLU, is trying to get the gag order lifted. The ACLU:
Note that the governor and the district judge both have the power to appoint a special prosecutor and have a new grand jury hearing.
More:
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/01/05/3607990/ferguson-grand-juror-says-prosecutor-dramatically-mischaracterized-darren-wilsons-case/
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Is it typical for grand jury to have a lifetime gag order?
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More racism from the Justice Dept… “no evidence to support charges”. How can these professionals, experts, gov’t officials no less, fail to see something commentators here see so clearly???
From the New York Times:
Justice Dept. to Recommend No Civil Rights Charges in Ferguson Shooting
By MATT APUZZO and MICHAEL S. SCHMIDT JAN. 21, 2015
WASHINGTON — Justice Department lawyers will recommend that no civil rights charges be brought against the police officer involved in the fatal shooting of an unarmed teenager in Ferguson, Mo., after an F.B.I. investigation found no evidence to support charges, law enforcement officials said Wednesday.
Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. and his civil rights chief, Vanita Gupta, will have the final say on whether the Justice Department will close the case against the officer, Darren Wilson. But it would be unusual for them to overrule the prosecutors on the case, who are still working on a legal memo explaining their recommendation.
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^^^^^Clearly you know the difference between civil rights charges vs criminal charges right? I know you were trying to be funny but try to go more for the haha and less for the dumb look.
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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