Note: The following is based on chapter eight of Eduardo Bonilla-Silva’s excellent book, “Racism Without Racists” (2010). This post presents his best guess as of 2010, but without all of his scholarly mights and maybes.
Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, professor of sociology at Duke University and expert on colour-blind racism, says the US seems to be moving towards a Latin American model of race.
Whites are set to become a minority. They could try to remain the majority through immigration laws and broadening the idea of what “white” is. Bonilla-Silva thinks that is unlikely: most Asians and Latinos are not assimilating in the same way Europeans did a hundred years ago.
The three-race model: Instead, the US seems to be moving towards something like this:
- “Whites”
- Old whites (Wasps, Jews, Italians, Irish, Germans, etc),
- New whites (Russians, Albanians, etc),
- Assimilated white Latinos,
- Some multiracials,
- Assimilated (urban) Native Americans,
- A few Asian-origin people.
- “Honorary Whites”
- Light-skinned Latinos,
- Japanese,
- Korean,
- Asian Indians,
- Chinese,
- Middle Eastern,
- Most multiracials.
- “Collective Black”
- Vietnamese,
- Filipino,
- Hmong,
- Laotian,
- Dark-skinned Latinos,
- Blacks,
- New West Indian and African immigrants,
- Reservation-bound Native Americans.
That list is not complete. It has no Samoans, for example.
It is also based on early data on income, interracial marriage, housing segregation and racial attitudes. So Filipinos, for example, might move up to become honorary whites, while Middle Easterners might move down to collective black.
Asians and Latinos are:
- Creating a third space between Whites and Blacks.
- Stratifying by skin colour, with the lighter skinned (Cubans, Koreans, etc) generally doing better than the darker skinned (Dominicans, Hmongs, etc).
Porosity: Colour lines will become “porous”. So, for example, a light-skinned middle-class Black man married to a White woman might count as an honorary white.
Race mixing will become more common as people try to lighten their children to give them a better chance in life.
Racial inequality will, if anything, grow worse. Blacks will continue to make a big deal about racism, but they will be increasingly dismissed with answers like:
- “We are all Americans!”
- “The US is beyond race.”
Class, not race, will likely be blamed for racial inequality – even while racial discrimination with a smile becomes the order of the day.
The government may well stop counting people by race. If so, civil rights laws will become harder to enforce and racism easier to deny. It could get so that bringing up race will be in bad taste.
Whites will continue to be colour-blind racists: “not seeing race” while acting racist and benefiting from racial inequality. They will face fewer challenges to their power based on race, remaining more firmly on top than now.
Honorary whites, just like Malcolm X’s House Negroes, will be more pro-white than whites themselves, defending a system that discriminates against them, acting as a buffer between whites at the top and collective blacks at the bottom.
Collective blacks, the country’s Field Negroes to continue the analogy (mine, not Bonilla-Silva’s), will believe more of the stereotypes about themselves. Colourism may get worse too. But most of their top people will remain race conscious and not sell out. It will become harder, however, for them to challenge racism in a US that is “beyond race”.
See also:
- The Fourth Enlargement of American Whiteness – another view of the future of race in the US
- colour-blind racism – from the same book as this post
- colourism
- The white club
- House Negro
Adonis: This future sucks! White supremacy is always refining itself
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It sounds like Abagond finds this scenario more likely than the enlargement of whiteness scenario.
We have precedence for both. The USA used to use the enlargement of whiteness approach but that was maintained by enforcing immigration quotas and exclusion laws, as well as anti-miscegenation laws. Whereas there was a middle “creole” / “quadroon / octoroon” class pre-reconstruction, it was pretty much eliminated by forcing them to mix with black, or pass into white, and excluding “3rd races” from entering the country.
However, the USA does not have a precedence of using enlargement of whiteness model to absorb so many new Latinos and Asians and multiracials. If they are few, it might be possible, but not if it is 1/4 the country.
With race-mixing and “not quite white, not quite black” stratification before Reconstruction, a stratification loosely based on colour was developed in the USA. Such a development continued in many Latin American countries that did not have strict segregation and anti-miscegenation laws. Most of them evolved into a colouristic society, with lighter mostly white people on top and darker mostly black or mixed Asian/Indigenous/black towards the bottom.
This sounds like what will happen if the Model Minority paradigm plays out for 2-3 more generations, with “whites” using the middle group as a tactic to keep the others further down the bottom.
I am not sure about the “New West Indian and African immigrants”, esp. those with college or post-graduate degrees. They might try to jockey up to the next category.
Both of these scenarios create or maintain a lot of inequality. Is there a 3rd or 4th scenario to consider?
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This is probably just a freak coincidence, but the “collective blacks” all seem to be from groups that haver lower average tested IQ scores (at least in the States–Indians in the U.S. tend to be successful brahmins, while Vietnamese are often refugees).
We desparately need some non-racist people to go administer IQ tests in non-racist ways so that these folks can score as highly as everyone else (of course above the neck everyone is the same, no matter if there are major physical differences between the races below the neck).
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Kiwi, maybe because they are smarter on average?
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Kiwi, they are at the top of the pyramid in countries where they are a majority, and they earn more and get into better schools on average than whites in the U.S.
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@Kiwi
The more I read your posts, the more I think you are pro-specific ethnic elitest. IQ tests don’t mean shit to me because there are too many variables and parameters that are questionable and not accurate….
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@ TeddyBearChubs
I think Kiwi is making a very specific point about the errors and illogic White ethnic elitism. He’s pretty much said the same thing that you said on other threads. I think you guys are on the same page, he’s just pointing out biff’s bad logic.
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We have other options beyond the status quo of ignorance and fear. People do not have to consider themselves “beneath” anyone based on race — it is emotionally, psychologically and spiritually dangerous, especially for people of color who are intelligent and conscious — unless they choose to believe the lies inherent in racism. We have a different choice collectively, and that is to become more conscious human beings who do not buy into the insanity of people being inferior or superior based on skin color. It is a lie. There is nothing honorary about being white. White people are human like people of color, with a range of personalities and character traits. There is nothing inherently “special” about any race of people.
White racism is the reason that sociopaths in power are able to continue to destroy the masses, and that includes middle class and poor whites along with middle class and poor people of color. Sociopaths of all races and economic backgrounds should be identified and held accountable so that they do not continue to “hide in plain sight” and destroy the masses of human lives with their lies, deceit, manipulation and exploitation. They use race to divide and conquer, which keeps far too many people stuck on stupid and fighting against other decent human beings who are not their enemies like sociopaths are, since sociopaths lack empathy for other human beings.
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@King
It’s not just that but other threads where he mentioned Taiwanese studying harder than Americans in Universities. He’s clearly generalizing and giving ammo to for those that would squash an otherwise great blog with good arguments. There are many black, white, hispanic, and asian american students that study very hard and take their college careers seriously. It’s a petty argument when there’s more racially charged ones to go after.
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Abagond @ “Honorary whites, just like Malcolm X’s House Negroes, will be more pro-white than whites themselves, defending a system that discriminates against them, acting as a buffer between whites at the top and collective blacks at the bottom.”
Linda says,
What you say here is so true in a sense because many Hispanics/Latinos (of all colours) bring their attitudes on race here to the USA and try to bond with white Americans by jumping on the band wagon and say negative things against black people
Honorary white status in the USA is a temporary card– white Americans like to pull it out when they are trying to pit any racial group/ethnicity against black Americans to put them down
They will always try to say “so and so are better than black people because…” — they do this with West Indians and African immigrants and because they (white Americans) vocalize these “preferences”, many immigrants pick up this biased “white” attitude that exists against black Americans
I saw it and heard it at University, at work, sitting in public places where black people with accents are complimented for being able to speak another language and the white people in the room praise them for being “hard workers and educated unlike….” — then of course, the black American bashing begins.
that’s why many immigrant groups parrot white American attitudes, drinking the kool-aide; until they personally hit the “bamboo” ceiling and feel the knife turned on them and have their eyes opened.
Same thing goes with the Hispanic/Latinos…trust, they got a serious wake up call from the real “white” Americans in the last few years and know where they are sitting on the totem pole. Most Latinos don’t want to be seen as “complainers” when it comes to racism against them, but it exists
and with the rise of the illegal immigration issue in the USA, it’s becoming more apparent: excerpt from article
http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/29/opinion/valencia-racism-latino/
“My Mexican friends remind me that I am American first, Mexican second and that my English is better than my Spanish.
“Yes,” I tell them. “But I can never walk into a room and be white.”
Evidently, to some the brown color of my skin means I’m not even American. My friends and family tell me what I experienced that night is a microcosm of what is happening to Latinos across the country.
You don’t have to look hard to find it. In news stories, in political discourse, on talk radio, in everyday conversation it seems it has become OK to treat Latinos in a negative and antagonistic way — whether they are new immigrants or longtime Americans.
The anti-immigration legislation sweeping across the United States has made this plain. People in my Latino networks say they’ve noticed the change. And now I understand what they mean.”
Socially, there is too much ingrained prejudice in the USA for this honorary “whitening” process to happen and be sustained.
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In the last 12 years, Arab-Americans have learned just how temporary their “white card” is in society (even though the US government forces them to select “white” on the census)
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/01/census.check.it.right.campaign/
When Jobrani looked at college applications in his counselor’s office, he saw no racial category for Iranians. “That’s because you’re white,” his counselor explained as she instructed him to check the box marked “white.”
“I told her, ‘What do you mean, white? I’ve been going through all this crap, all this ribbing and teasing for years, and I’ve been white all this time? You should have told me earlier.’ ”
“Jobrani now has a message for other Arab- and Persian-Americans who have been living in racial limbo: “Check it right; you ain’t white!” (on Census)
You look in the mainstream media, and they often try to minimize us as a group, like we’re a shadowy, fringe minority,” Masry said.
If Arab-Americans are going to be treated as different, they might as well highlight their differences on census forms to get equal representation, Masry says.
“We’re being profiled anyway, so why don’t we take pride in ourselves and gain advantage from it?” he asked.”
I can’t see the “real” white Americans giving up power and status to accommodate any more non-European groups, they already go by the “if you look it, you must be it” policy
but socially, it will be a cold day when they will look at a mestizo or a brown-skinned Indian or Arab and think he is “white”
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Kiwi:
You said “African immigrants study harder than white Americans, too. Is that “racially charged”?”
Nice try, but TBC is right and you are “generalizing and giving ammo to for(sic) those that would squash an otherwise great blog with good arguments”
You sir are a r@cist because you observe similarities within groups of people, when on an individual level we’re all different!
There are many many black people who are wonderful people and make great neighbors, so therefore white people are r@cist because they don’t want to move into black neighborhoods.
Anyway, of course even after whites are a majority there will be more of them than Asians in the U.S. for some time. If there were a hypothetical society where East Asians and whites coexisteded in even numbers without mixed groups (like hispanics, who generally have significant white ancestry) I don’t think East Asians would be “beneath whites”, as you put it.
You a massive inferiority complex. As you said, you’re a decent looking Taiwanese/Chinese guy. Pick yourself up. Get confidence and learn some game. This whiny attitude you have is kryptonite for you when you deal with ladies.
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Kiwi:
Of course you’re right (you always are). That my best non-Asian friend in town is Black, that I am in an interracial marriage with mixed kids being raised in an ESL environment and that I choose not to live around white people are all just a cover (a cover of a track on one of abagond’s broken records?) for me being a r@c!$+, white $uprem@c!S+. You got me. You will be forgiven for noticing some things if you beg for mercy, but not me. I have noticed too much.
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To Kiwi,
“You sir are a r@cist because you observe similarities within groups of people, when on an individual level we’re all different!”
Are you really saying that if you discern trends within groups of people you are racist? Or have I taken that out of context?
It does appear to be what you are saying.
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@ Michael Cooper
Where might I find those statistics?
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@ Michael Cooper
Comment deleted. Anal sex and bestiality are way, WAY off topic.
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Here is the future of the United States. Although, I think the diagram leaves out a fourth tier. the situation in brazil is much more complicated than the chart. In brazil, there are 26(?) different racial categories based on ski color, african features. There is quite a bit of inra-category mobility based primarily on socioeconomic class. However, the anchor classes (the top and the bottom) are quite stable Whites with little evidence of race mixing are at the top and Blacks who have little or any race mixing are on the bottom
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So if we see this system of white supremacy and understand how it works, what are some possible ways black Americans can circumvent it?
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Aaaah! First you write an optimistic post with the forth enlargement and then you hit me with this most bleak prophecy; I can’t take the huge shifts, my head hurts, it’s all too much for me.
I suppose I used to assumed it unlikely that a country with a majority of people of colour would operate under White supremacism, but then I got to thinking about Brazil which has the largest African descended populace after Nigeria, yet still most of this group are relegated to the slums. Despite the fact that most Brazilians are multiracial, their hierarchy still exists on lightest to darkest.
I think POC can achieve equality, it would just require a generation or two of very disciplined determination and organization.
I’m going to go soothe myself with Minnie Riperton now.
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Great posts @Linda
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Yes, Vernellia , I dont think its an acurate comparison…
When I travel to the states from Brazil , Im an American living in Brazil, the fact there is a black middle class in America, screams out at you right away , more black Americans own their own businesses , more black Americans travel in aurports and have a presence in good hotels , especialy places like South Beach …there is more black American presence in the media…
If you live in America, you cant perceive it , if you come straight from Brazil , you see it right away …as well as the fact that in many major cities in the USA , if you travel , you see a large Hispanic presence greeting you at hotels and restaurants….
If people think its going to revert to where Brazil is now, all the ground that black Americans have made would have to be taken away …which some people may be implying that will happen…but I dont think that will happen…I think Brazil will have to deal with their situation and try to at least reach a leval where you will see much greater presence of Afro Brazilians and pardos represented in the middle class, the media, politics, traveling , high end jobs etc
I also hope both countries would actualy recognise and value , the true Afro diasporic roots and origins of the foundations of the cultural expresions of their countries….you might not think that happens in Brazil …but it really is slickly buried under corporate media manipulations of what black culture is suposed to be…which definitly happens in the USA
What many people here think is some pass giving to some people into an accepted white world is really the continuation of surpressing and burying real black American culture…its really about being accepted into a white cultural frame work…
Most of these social theories and stratification theories are written by well educated college grads , who are relating most of it through their western education….they really cant define or quite grasp the all encompasing cultural surpresion that really is underneath these catagories and social strata data they try to weave their theories out if
That is why that guy thinks America will become more like Brazil…without really thinking it through…even if he is Brazilian….white Brazilians get their education from western thought also , and cant really define origins of what is culturaly is going on , or what could be getting lost …what could be getting buried….how much self esteem is affected by it …how much class lines and attitudes can be formed through cultural racism…by my definition , not some scholastic definition
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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[…] Note: The following is based on chapter eight of Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's excellent book, "Racism Without Racists" (2010). This post presents his best guess as of 2010, but without all of his schola… […]
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White supremacy will be alive and well in the years to come.
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@BR and George
Thank goodness for your perspectives. The thought of this happening is so depressing. But, I’m wondering if western Black youths are getting so passive and exhibit so much internalized racism that these dynamics could in fact be achieved, slowly but surely? I reeeaaally hope not.
In the words of Rodney King, “can’t we all just get along?”
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Oh, just read all of GR’s post, I’m depressed again. This and the Lovelace bio all in one afternoon, it’s just too much. I’m going back to listen to Minnie Riperton cds to hear happy bird sounds.
Forget all of you!
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To The Pragmatist,
“So if we see this system of white supremacy and understand how it works, what are some possible ways black Americans can circumvent it?”
There are no ways to circumvent it. Nothing will change based on this model. Why would it? Who will be able to overthrow a white elite which is this clever and this powerful and absolutely determined to stratify society based on colour with dark skinned blacks at the bottom? They have had over 400 years to refine this stuff. A few uppity blacks aren’t going to dent it very easily.
We bottom of the barrel blacks might as well become ‘house Negroes’ if we can, although the ‘honorary white’ jobs will be grossly oversubscribed. You will only need a relatively small class of administrative Sambos to keep the ‘collective blacks’ in order. For me, a sooty bosomed thing, it is my only hope because being ‘race conscious’ like the ‘top people’ doesn’t seem to bring much reward, or rather any reward comes with too high a price tag. The ‘field Negro’ role isn’t even to be considered. Being a Judas seems the better bet.
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The tactic of whites using Asians & their achievements as a philosophical weapon against Black people seems to be all the rage nowadays, even right here in this very dialogue. This is the fallback of choice for the phony intellectual bigot who wants to cherry-pick which races are more viable than others, without getting bogged down by those pesky historical facts or real-life observations.
Why bother dignifying this type of psychobabble with a response?
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Vernellia Randall
“However, the anchor classes (the top and the bottom) are quite stable Whites with little evidence of race mixing are at the top and Blacks who have little or any race mixing are on the bottom”.
I have some minor observations regarding this sentence.
Demographically, Brazil is a country where the majority of the population is either White (European phenotype) or close to White (light-skinned multi-racials). The next larger group are mixed race individuals whose phenotype cannot be confounded with “pure” Whites or “pure” Blacks. “Pure” Blacks are a minority around 7% or less.
From the point of view of economic development, Brazil is a middle-income country. Many countries of this group still have a large stock of their population classified as poor, despite a growing middle class.
With such a large percent of White population and the country’s level of development, that racial group fills the upper and the medium strata but a not small part of them fall yet at the class of the poor, too. This is what we see in the picture Abagond put in the top of this post (see a note below).
So, it’s true that the upper stratum is almost only White, but the bottom stratum retains a large number of Whites too.
Blacks who managed to get rich exist, but normally are absorbed in the White group, by marrying a White spouse (see the many cases of athletes and singers like Pele or Alexandre Pires).
An example of a famous White individual who was born poor and later become President of Brazil is Lula da Silva.
Where I live (Maputo, Mozambique) this picture of Brazil’s society is crystal clear because:
* we watch many Brazilian soap-operas (=telenovelas) which, despite being works of fiction, are able to depict more or less how things work in Brazil;
* the two countries enjoy a close relationship partly because of cultural reasons (Portuguese is a common idiom in both countries) and more and more because of economic reasons – some major Brazilian multinational companies are already operating in Mozambique; this creates an environment where more and more people travel from one country to the other and vice-versa; a growing number of our students go to Brazil to further their studies;
* in some (racial) aspects the Brazilian society reminds us – in Mozambique – of how our own society operated in the colonial past.
About Abagond’s post’s top image:
– the couple at the top says “Tem democracia racial, sim…” = “There is, yes, racial democracy…”
– the guy at the bottom says “Só se for aqui em baixo…” = “Only if you are meaning down here…”
The top is lily White and the bottom is a mix of all kinds of people!
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Great post Manu aka Bantu. Thank-you for the insight.
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Manu, if you are watching tele novelas from Brazil, you are absolutly seeing the white washed version of Brazil life, by the way ,Brazil is 51 self described Afro descendant…the tele novelas look like they filmed them in the states that have more German and Italian immigrants…they are very insulated and dont really depict the real Brazil I know…yes, just now , some black people and pardos are being inscerted…but, if you ask me, they are stuck in the writers concept of how they should act..Brazil is huge and there is a huge white population, huge black population and even bigger mixed with indigenous, afro and euro, middle east and Asian influences the first three being the dominant
Brazil is about the white elite own the media , so they get to depict what they want to show…and, for me, someone who researches and performs with Afro diasporic performers and presents Afro Brazilian dances and rhythms , including exhibitions of Candomble, which I dont practice religiosly, there is a tremendous danger that these wonderful cultures are being surpressed , not really shown to a mass audience on any regular basis. So, while new quotas for black Brazilians come in for universities and the media, and you see black Brazilians coming on tv, they arnt really showing the rich incredible black Brazilian culture, except in strange media depictions like an all male type of samba groups called “pagode” or the now comercialised main stream “baile funk”, but “coco” , “maracatu”,”samba de caboclo” “samba de roda”, “avamunha”, “opanije”, “ilu”, “caboclinho”, “sato”, “vassi” etc are shuffled in the background and you have to really search for it…
Ebonymonroe, I was lucky enough to play “Loving You” once on stage with Minnie Ripperton…unbeleivable voice..we didnt use live birds , though ha…I just think its the same cycle being played over , I dont think its depressing because its only a change of mind that can head the other way…and really understanding what is underneath all this, which I really think is a cultural racism , that is implying that “because of your phenotype and the culture from the people of your phenotype, you are inferior(while our next generation apropriates your recent innovation and makes money on it, and , we whites all are acting black some kind of way in our popular cultures, we just dont want black people acting black, we want them to act white , like us, and if you dont you will be marginalised)”
This is the underlying message that has been passed down since slavery..and if you think about it, it has most of the underlying causes…maybe not all …but it is underneath most of what people are calling white racism..it is what white racism is
so check it out, the out and out racists, absolutly are plugging into slave legacy , that stripped Afro descendants of all their culture except when hidden, by blatently saying black people are inferior culturaly and phenotype is tied in (what happens is, a black American can not even identify with black culture but their phenotype will implicate him), but if you look at the race realists and their arguments, they are mostly an implication of cultural inferiority , and not fitting into the white way of doing things…and all the way over to the liberal side of white people, the ones who do care , want to help…they rarely can grasp black Americans cultural orientation, the needs that have been destroyed and buried and the new innovations that immedietly get stepped on or banned (this plays out in many differant countries and many differant decades , there is no cultural expresion that has been banned more than Afro diasporic cultural expresion)…even in church, Mary Burrell has stated that some white pastors said the black church was too emotional !!?? The beauty standards constantly being pushed to not except black cultural beauty standards…the cultural message is and has been constantly bombarded
and that is where I feel the real focus should be on to get at the crux of the white racism that plagues America…white people arnt accepting light skinned blacks or mixed kids, into some kind of stratisfere…they are just sending the message that you have to act according to our cultural standards to be accepted…people will bang their heads trying to look for other answers but if you look at the cultural racism, the constant din of surpressing , burying, destroying Afro diasporic culture , then reinventing it as abherated white culture, and the preasure for people to act culturaly like white people, you are coming closer to the more all encombasing origins underneath of what is happening with white racism
I am actualy opimistic for Brazil and the USA, that people can pull back these cultural layers and start telling the truth about it and start giving the cultural credit to the people who built it….even deeper, to discover the depth and unbeleivable knowledge and genius that is the messegas that were sent to us from ancient , pre Islamic and pre Christian black Africa, and start recognising the gifts they represent to human civilisation…which no other culture, Asian, Indian, jewish, European etc etc etc , really recognises or acknowledges anywhere…but these messages are dominating our ppular cultures in a huge way…that is enormous force and power if you ask me…we all just have to start rethinking and reexamining what this genius and message is…that will melt many things away if they are truly examined…it wont cure white racism entirely, nothing will, there will always be some white racism, but the truth will set a lot of people free…who invented 2 against 3, is as important to human developement as e=mc squared
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Ok, so my question is this: how do we flip the racial pyramid so that, for once, the collective blacks come out on top?
To me, that would entail creating a self-sustaining system that’s not only outside of the bounds of the mainstream, but also seeks to vigorously and tenaciously combat the effects of the mainstream. Considering how the mainstream seeks to maintain the black collective as a permanent underclass, this may be the only way it can survive, flourish and hopefully prepare itself for a time when it can successfully flip that pyramid upside down.
Some people might see it as “self-segregation” and others might warn that whites and others would use this as an excuse to fall further back into pre-integration actions and beliefs. I don’t know…all I know is that we need to get ourselves under some shelter and wait for the hailstorm to pass.
Folks like biff highlight how the mainstream wields “honorary whites” – fair-complexioned Asians, Arabs, Latinos, etc. – as both a psychological and philosophical (thanks, Elridge S) weapon to keep blacks and other dark-skinned people in their pre-ordained place at the bottom of the socioeconomic and racial hierarchy. All so that mainstream whiteness remains at the pinnacle of said hierarchy, even as its numerical strength wanes.
Combating the belief in “lightness as rightness” is an uphill battle that’ll last for far longer than we’ll all be here. The “Redemption of Cain” portrait is a powerful piece that appeals to the battle-weary who just want an easier, less stressful life for their children and future generations. That seems to be a part of what Brazil is still grappling with: juxtaposing the allure of whiteness and lightness with the darker-skinned reality of the nation.
That’s not surprising, given how many people still see blacks as tools from which they can pluck the output or harvest and use that for their own benefit, at their own profit. It’s like stripping all of the apples from an apple tree – you might have planted the orchard some time ago, but it’s the trees that did nearly all of the work…and here you are leisurely plucking from them to your heart’s content.
And that’s how the rich Afro culture ends up being co-opted and expropriated by others whose own cultures are too weak or deficient to create their own satisfactory output.
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Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
I told you so. And who is responsible for Brazil?
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To Mack Lyons,
“And that’s how the rich Afro culture ends up being co-opted and expropriated by others whose own cultures are too weak or deficient to create their own satisfactory output.”
Care to mention a few ‘weak’ and ‘deficient’ cultures unable to create their own ‘satisfactory output’?
That sounds very similar to the arguments which some whites make against aspects of black culture and which are frequently dismissed as racist. You have just reversed it and centred it on the arts and fashion rather than modes of behaviour.
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For me, its not that western culture is weak, its that Afro diasporic culture is so strong…and the real crux of the problem is the blatent lack of acknowledgement, especialy in the Americas , where African slaves were brought , that their culture eventualy dominated the popular cultures of those countries…i mean absolutly dominated, in the face of attemts to dismiss, destroy, and bury..
Also in reality, all over the world, there is no other ethnic , religous, or national entities, that actualy give some kind of acknowledgement of the force, power , genius and gifts , that the Afro diaspora has given us, and they dont want to attemt to define it, but it is extremly definable
I beleive you can find scholastic referances to the contributions to humanity of many civilisations, like Greece, Rome, the Arab contributions of algebra, astronomy, chemistry, Chinese contributions in inventions, Indian contributions in mathematics with the zero, and the depths of Budhism , or Tai Chee in China…many things are left out, but they are there, while Africa, Egypt is fought over…but , below North Africa…pre Islamic, pre Christian black Africa, a mathamatical conception of what happens when you cross duple and triple meter , repeated it back on itself in self similarity, with call responce syncopation, that actualy allows it to flow on a life of its own, based on holding parts, and then add body movements that touch every fulcrum in the body, and, it unleashed a force so powerful , dynamic and strong…that it grates up against every culture it comes in contact with from the families that crossed the red sea 90 thousand years ago…
now that is power, real power…yet, isnt ackowledged by any body of learning for the value to the steps of our human tragectory it really represents…and the effect it has on our inner beings and why it happens is barely understood, yet its comic book interpretations in Americas where slaves were brought in numbers from Africa (comic book , in the sence that if you study the traditional African cultures they came from, they are much more profound in the expresion of these concepts), , become the dominating foundations our cultural expresions are based on…the table its set on…while , yes, music and dance are the flash point, it runs much deeper than that , in dress , foods, slang…these things are blatently on display in brazil and America…our cultural expresions have deep unackowledged ties to Afro diasporic messages coming from ancient black Africans..and how their descendants reacted to the attempt at having their cultures stripped away
my gosh, the absolute force that these cultures rose up and became the foundations of the countries slaves were brought, is an absolute testamony to the strength and inner fortitude of the people in slavery and force of those concepts that brought those concepts…but that story isnt really told
but scientists are studying how playing jazz opens up the alpha part of the brain, opens up the creative part of the brain, and real Afro diasporic cultures get you in touch with intuition and the inner being, which scientists are discovering is what is making our desicians instead of our thinking brain…and here is a culture thart actualy gets you in touch with that!!! cmom, what are we looking for? what do we need to stop the bs and ackowledge these cultural concepts are profound and valuable to the human tragectory?
So, its this on going surpresion, burying, destruction (remember how many lincs i brought in of countries and religions all over the world who banned various Afro diasporic cultures from various decades, even recently , people in Iran were banned fro dancing together to Farrol’s music, blatent Afro diasporic culture) of these concepts and the not ackowledging the contributions to human tragectury that are major things about white cultural racism against black Americans that plague us into today, and how the Christian church in america gave its blessing to this (Christians have also reached out , as Quackers helped on the undergroung railroad) and how this plays out in the media comercial psych blasting us today
unless we can look at the truth about this, it will perpetuate on and on as it always has, from minstel to hip hop…there are great parralels from the Anslinger marijuana tax act,from 37, the bebop culture that included zoot suits and the zoot suit wars that police cracked down on black Americans and mexican Americans and putting them in jail on pot busts, down into today with huge populations of black americans jailed for just pot possecion, and the shooting of Trayvon martin for suspecting him just because he wore clothes that culturaly associated with hip hop…to know this , and put it together, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up
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B.R. answers that question in a unique way:
Brilliant answer, B.R.
I spoke from a perspective of seeing parts of Afro-diasporic culture co-opted by mainstream America, only for it to be watered-down into a form that’s more palatable to the bland mainstream palate.
Maybe “bland” is a better word than “weak” or “deficient.” Perhaps safer, too, given how it upset our friend Ally’s sensibilities.
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Yes, Mack, that is what i get you mean, this abheration of black culture, comercialising it, and not even telling the truth about our American cultural history..and coming up with a weaker version
Im sure we agree Bheethoven, Bach and mozart have their place in history, but , the origins of these Afro diasporic cultures dont….
And, as a person who uses Afro diasporic concepts as like daily prayer (and i dont mean religious rites or practices, but the actual concepts that were developed), to really gain inner strength and focus, and how it fills my soul to the brim , and I mean in a profound constant way , I will defend these concepts and the people who brought them to us , as best as I can…
i am far from being an expert on the black American political struggle , or could claim to be a voice, but, these things I am talking about , I know deeply, and have paid the dues to understand them , and i will relentlessly defend the rights of the people who gave us these gifts , and have also suffered so much because of their culture and who they were,and they gave us these gifts, for all who wish to dig for that buried treasure…and I mean dig deeply, not just copy and abherate…the true rewards are immense
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@ Kiwi @ Jefe
This and the post on Painter’s Fourth Enlargement is part of a series. I will do a post on my own views at the end.
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To Mack Lyons,
It didn’t upset my delicate sensibilities, but it did sound a little off to me.
Your qualification makes more sense if you are merely talking about people creating weak pastiches of black culture and not crediting them as such. What worries me is when people make value judgements about other cultures. It can easily sound snobbish and sneering.
The latter would be equivalent of an English person belittling Romania’s writers because they aren’t as well known or as well regarded internationally as Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen etc., or the Germans saying that Latvian classical music can’t hold a candle to Beethoven, Mozart and Wagner, or the Italians saying that no Irish artist can match Raphael, Michaelangelo and Titian. The renown which one country’s or group’s artists are held in shouldn’t be used as a stick to dismiss and trivialise another’s.
That said I am not one for cultural or ethnic purity. If someone wants to borrow something and does it as well or better than good for them. If they want to change things, fine. If they do it worse it doesn’t really bother me, and it doesn’t hurt the integrity of what they are borrowing from so I couldn’t really care less that people borrow from British or black culture and do their own thing with it.
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@Ally
Interesting points. I can say that the Southern White elite has been outsmarted before in the past, so I believe it is possible it can happen again. During the Civil Rights era separate, but equal was the law, however African Americans overcame this by organizing and *strategically protesting in order to get rid of the “separate” equation from the “(un)equal.”
*African American protesters knew that if they remained non-violent while instigating southern racist, the media, the country, and the world would be forced to pay attention to their plight as those racist predictably responded in a violent manner. This eventually forced Washington to take action and has led to a plethora of social rights and progress for Blacks and other minority groups in America.
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@munu aka Bantu
What are “pure whites”? I ask b/c there are people who think they are, but are not. Many people with some African or American ancestry “pass for white,” including in Brasil. Many people who appear “pure black” are not. Looks can be deceiving, and really, race is not even a genetic thing…it’s social.
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Kiwi, they are at the top of the pyramid in countries where they are a majority, and they earn more and get into better schools on average than whites in the U.S.
Think you might find this interesting.
http://read.hipporeads.com/debunking-the-model-asian-myth-five-ways-asian-americans-still-face-discrimination/
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Sorry! Forgot to make sure to direct my comment to Bliff.
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@resw77
“What are “pure whites”? I”
By Whites, here, I mean people whose appearance is very close to that of a native European. It has not much to do with genetics. Anyway, the notion of race in Brazil operates in this way.
In the previous comment, I wanted to distinguish those people from the ones whose appearance denounces explicitly a hybrid racial heritage. The last are called “pardos” (grey) what is equivalent to mixed.
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Kiwi:
Eh, Japan also colonized China. China was a deeply divided country for a while before the commies brought unity (warlords roaming around and such). I can personally tell you that there are pretty much no hard feelings against Westerners in Shanghai (though some bad feelings towards the Japanese persist). The “no dogs or Chinese” sign is mostly fictional. http://www.vdare.com/posts/no-dogs-or-chinese-mythical-too
I am indeed a delicate lotus blossom, and my ears cannot bear to hear profanity like the word ® @¢!$+.
For anonymous,
Read your link. Not much new there. (i) The school thing is pretty ridiculous. If Asians want their full allotment of places, they should be voting Republican and making loud calls for the abandonment of affirmative action in education, and instead relying on pure merit. As I’ve demonstrated before, non-Jewish whites are the most underrepresented major demographic in the ivies under the current system. (ii) In business, this “bamboo ceiling” is apex fallacy. There are many fewer east asian homeless people in the U.S. than blacks or whites. On average, Asians do better than whites in terms of income, so looking at CEOs doesn’t tell you much about the average person and is an unfortunate distraction from real issues, but I suspect that there will be more Asian CEOs as more Asian Americans (rather than 1st generation ESL folks) get to be CEO age. (iii) not enough Asians in hollywood? Go sue the mostly Jewish movie makers. They also don’t represent the huge conservative/Christian side of the U.S. in film either (iv) In sports? Whites are also underrepresented in basketball. Let’s get an affirmative action petition going. Of course there are no physical differences between the races… (v) As for white women not liking Asian men (yes, that’s on the list too), that’s tough, but women like who they want–why don’t I see Asian guys clamoring after Black girls?.. of that’s right, they have a choice too…. Meanwhile Asian women seem to do just fine in the U.S. in terms of landing high status guys. So, yeah, stupid list.
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Manu is right , there are pure whites in Brazil , if he is seeing tele novelas from Brazil , he is seeing some pure white Brazilians …there are huge German and Italian colonies in Brazil , I even saw a report yesterday down here of people in these German colonies , that retain and speak German…of course , being in Brazil , in some of the people in their colonies , there will be some black and Indian mixing in….In the southern states in Brazil , I see mixtures I just call “pastel”, that maybe are less than one eigth mixture but you can perceive traces of ethnic mixtures…Brazil is huge , there is huge pockets of pure white , pure black and pure Indian , Japanese colonies , Lebanese colonies , and a larger group than any , of mixed people of all varieties and dimensions of mixture…
Ally , and you think your point aplies to the dynamic Mack Lyons and I am reffering to about what happened culturaly to the Afro diaspora music in the Americas? Because you ought to really research the histories in both Brazil and America they are full of dismissing , sufocating, banning and destroying Afro diasporic cultures , and then whites taking those cultures and abherating them …this happens right into the present with three white women getting the big push in Salvador Bahia , as the leading music representatives from a predominitly Afro Brazilian population…they arnt bad artists either , but ,the surpresion of black talent is jaw dropping . This has been the history in America, and the real story of the music and the black American talents that have been lost in the shuffle is nothing less than shameful..and this is what Mack Lyons is reffering to
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Is Biff such an old-school racist that he doesn’t think of jews as truely white or is he only using them to negate institutional racism?
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Kiwi says. “Thus, we have the massive inferiority complex of the Japanese vis-à-vis white people today.”
Interesting. I don’t really see it. My impression in Japan has been that most white guys were military and English teacher types, and thus pretty low on the status totem pole. People in Japan didn’t expect whites to have cash and didn’t cater to them much, except for very low level touristy stuff.. I remember crashing in a park in Tokyo for a few hours years ago, and these Japanese businessmen looked down at me as they passed by on their way to work like I was so much garbage (and no, I didn’t look like a hobo, just a frugal student). Then I saw waitstaff at some places that were white (maybe part time job for student types). Never had any really hot Japanese women throwing themselves at me either (maybe partly a language thing), and let’s just say the Japanese women who intermarry don’t have a reputation for being the ones most attractive to Japanese men (Wendy Deng was also probably not getting much attention from high status Asian men when. as a 30 year old divorcee, she married a media tycoon). I certainly haven’t felt “superior” in Japan (or places with many Japanese, like Hawaii, where the Japanese seem to have more money than the whites, generally speaking)…
but, I can understand how Chinese would like to perceive Japanese as feeling inferior to white people.
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Kartoffel said:
“Is Biff such an old-school racist that he doesn’t think of jews as truely white or is he only using them to negate institutional racism?”
Of course they are white. However, if you are looking at elite schools, etc., they are vastly overrepresented as compared to both their percentage of the population, and even, surprisingly, as compared to their test scores, IQs, etc. They have formal and informal networks and often look out for each other. It is what it is. In the same way, if I were South-east Asian, I’d be pretty p!ssed about being considered just “Asian” and model minority, since Laotians, for instance, are more like “collective black”, as referenced in abagond’s above.
Well, Kiwi.
I don’t think it’s worthwhile to have a back and forth on all these points.. You really like to have the last word. And it’s kind of off topic, but abagond is pretty tolerant about conversations that go off on a tangent, as long as they aren’t totally unrelated.
You just keep on bringing up supposed Asian inferiority. And when given the chance, you bring up your uncle, aunt and cousin.. and that Asian women don’t like you… seriously, get some game, dude. http://www.returnofkings.com/36359/an-open-letter-to-asian-men-of-the-west
At the very least, Asian Americans are incredibly popular back in Asia, and there are many white guys (myself included) who decided that the U.S. was sorely lacking in marriagable gals.
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Kiwi:
You said, “In my experience, I attract the most attention from the prettier women whereas the plainer ones don’t pay nearly as much attention. Sorry about that.”
So get with one (or more) of those “prettier women” and stop complaining.
You also said, “But I guess it’s too bad that the Chinese aren’t any better and the less attractive women (according to you) hop into bed with you.”
I do fine with attractive Chinese women. Maybe the language opens the doors to the hotties. Of course beauty is subjective. My wife used to model in Korea, and I’ve been told is very pretty by Asian standards, so there’s that too.
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You know what?
I think you both (biff and Kiwi – especially biff) are d*ckheads. Why not debate in a civilised and respectful way, instead of sledging one another’s families etc etc. Both of you constantly bring people’s families, partners, s*xual choices etc into debates – so immature.
And I realise my own hypocrisy for insulting you but this is just ridiculous. I only read comments by either of you if I feel the need to work myself into a temper.
That is all. Carry on gentlemen.
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OFF TOPIC: dating Asian women.
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@Wordy
And I realise my own hypocrisy for insulting you but this is just ridiculous.
Haha! Don’t worry about that. 🙂
Knocking heads, is an age old practice to get through to someone who has (from “the teacher’s” perspective) a stuck or excessively dominant mindset of one type or another.
There! *smacks hands together*
I, Legion, have bestowed upon you, Wordynerdygirl, a ‘Get Out of Hypocrisy’ pass, good for the next 24hrs. 😀
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@abagond
…but, but, “anonymous” started it with his link to 5 ways Asian Americans are discriminated against… and, and Kiwi had to continue it by linking to a pic of an old super rich dude with an ugly Chinese woman…
Anyway, seriously, apparently Kiwi is not happy being an “honorary white” per the chart above by virtue of his “Chinese” ethnicity (Kiwi, if you happen to be really native “Taiwanese” maybe we need to consider “collective black”). So, on the list of “whites” above, I see: “A few Asian-origin people”. As a genuine WASP (that’s me first on the list there) I hereby grant Kiwi the privilege of being a straight up “white” person in the new order (you get to sneak in last there, buddy).
Enjoy it, bro. But, every time someone says how bad and racist white people are, they are talking about you now. You become just like the embodiment of evil. No take backs. For reals.
Wordy, thanks for the support there, making it personal is wrong, but at least you can recognize your hypocrisy. And, by the way, how do you feel that Mr. Bonilla-Silva would apparently characterize your man as part of “collective black”?.
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@munu aka Bantu
Thanks for the clarity. And it appears you know that race works differently in the US, and other former/current British colonies.
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Correction:
In my first comment where I wrote:
“Demographically, Brazil is a country WERE the majority of the population is…”
should be:
“Demographically, Brazil is a country WHERE the majority of the population is…”
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[…] The future of racial stratification in the US […]
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@BR
I’ll avoid going off topic by writing too much, but, I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU PLAYED WITH MINNIE RIPERTON! Is there anyone you haven’t played with? I’ve fallen in love with her music over the last few weeks!
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Ebonymonroe, I have a long comment in moderation about Minnie.I hope Abagond will indulge me on that ..I wish I could say I have played with everyone….but, Ive just been a hard working profesional who always aspired to play Afro diasporic culture…since i was a kid..and i was very lucky to be accepted by the black American community I grew up arorund
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It sounds like you’ve lived an incredible life, BR. Grabbed life by the horns and ran with all the passion you could muster. I really admire that.
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@ B.R.
Please take out the personal information about Ebonymonroe in the Minnie Riperton comment and resubmit. If you want, I can take it out for you. I do not want to aid and abet stalkers or have Ebonymonroe tell me to delete the comment in six months.
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Abagond , If you could take it out the parts , id apreciate it , because Im having computor problems , and I understand what you are saying…just so Ebonymonroe knows it was about sending cd’s to the BBC , and not something more personal…she already informed me about the BBC
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@ Legion
Thanks 🙂 My 24 hours has expired so I won’t say too much.
@ biff
Not sure why you think that would offend me. It’s really strange – You seem to want to recruit white and Asian people as allies in a quest to put down black people.
You put white and Asian people on a pedestal (although not Asian men, I notice) and black people right at the bottom.
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@wordynerdygirl,
Wow, you sliced through that like a hot knife though butter.
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Abagond ,Ill try again, and Ebonymonroe, the part Abagond wanted edited related to the info you gave on another thread about the BBC, and,how I intend to send cd’s there that would take about 4 months to complete…
The gig with Minnie was a tough one, I was green and the music director, Odel Brown ,who co wrote “Sexual Healing” and later was musical director for Marvin Gaye , was doing strange things like having people call my then wife looking for info to use to psych me,so it became too uncomfortable and sometimes you have to face a situation that is a dream, that can become a nightmare and you have to do what is best for you..
it was 3 weeks of intense rehersals , i did a couple of gigs , and, in a tour that went through a bunch of musicians and drummers , anyway, I had to leave under the stress…
but, Minnie was incredible, as well as “Loving You”, we did “If I Ever Leave This Heaven”, which was written by Leon Ware, and , Minnie recorded it on Quincy Jones “Body Heat”, in a very slick version I like better than the Average White Band version…Earth Wind and Fire rehearsed at the same place we did for a day and Philip Baily sat in on congas, he is a great percusionist
It was hard for me to lose that gig, but, it inspired me to eventualy move to New York and really test my self against great players, and also that led to moving to Rio and Brazil , which changed me as a person and musician…she was one experiance among many many other great moments
Her voice was so special, we were rehearsing to break the “Perfect Angle” record that Stevie Wonder had co produced, and he was at his peak then…even though it was a hard experiance for me, I cried very hard when I found out she had died
Abagond, dont worry about editing the other comment
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@wordynerdygirl
“You seem to want to recruit white and Asian people as allies in a quest to put down black people.”
Yes. It is what one can infer reading a few White “race-realist” posters in this blog.
Those people seem to think of themselves as very knowledgeable, but for me they appear to be somewhat naive.
If blacks appear to be weak at this moment in time, not only in American society but worldwide, why bother thinking about them? In life it makes more sense to concentrate your mental energies with your next adversaries. And the next adversaries of White power is something that is growing in the heart of Asia right now!
China and/or India are becoming rapidly true World powers on their own right. And it’s more or less obvious that they are going to collide with the West in the quest for natural resources and areas of influence in the World arena.
If those commentators were truly intelligent and had some foresight they would try to extend a hand of friendship to blacks and not try to humiliate them with insinuations of their supposed inferiority. The Chinese are already by the millions in Africa and I haven’t noticed them trying to propagate theories of black inferiority. They are practical people making their business and, if needed making friendships too.
Do the Chinese have some prejudice in relation to Africans? Maybe, they have, I don’t know. But surely they are smart enough to not let those prejudices to interfere negatively with their activities.
But maybe these people (in this blog) can only see the World through the lens of American society and there, yes, it makes some sense that the true adversary of White power is the huge black population. Then it makes sense to recruit somebody else to help maintain this adversary in line.
@abagond
“This and the post on Painter’s Fourth Enlargement is part of a series. I will do a post on my own views at the end.”
Abagond, I know that the focus of your reflections are the events and processes taking place in your country. But in view of the growing interdependence between national and international processes (for example migratory processes; or “power games” between “big countries” in distant territories) I would suggest that you try to take in account in your analyses how much the World outside will influence the racial dynamics inside the United States.
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@BR
Out of respect for the blog rules I won’t say too much so as not to veer off the post topic, but that is truly wonderful, and that’s an understatement.
PS I looove Perfect Angel.
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@Abagond
Do you think that counting race on Census forms is necessary for enforcing civil rights laws?
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@resw77
“@Abagond: Do you think that counting race on Census forms is necessary for enforcing civil rights laws?”
Your question was directed to Abagond, but if you allow me, I’ll put 2 cents on it.
I think, yes, counting race will remain necessary to help enforce civil rights laws, even if it will become more complicated to categorize human beings as the time goes, because of race mixing. Again, the experience of Brazil comes to mind.
I think that to racially categorize human beings is bad in itself, but the practical effects of racial discrimination are even worse.
Without statistical numbers to measure how things are evolving in a society it will become almost impossible to challenge the racist practices that will remain.
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@ resw77
I agree with Munu. Without the statistics it will be too easy to deny racism, to say people are imagining it.
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@munu aka Bantu, abagond
France’s census doesn’t ask people for race, but it’s still hard to deny racism exists in France when it can be proven by surveys and actual incidents caught on video.
I’m just suspicious of a more sinister reason why the US Census asks for race.
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[…] The future of racial stratification in the US […]
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Race-based grading at the University of Wisconsin. That’s the future of racial stratification in the US
http://eagnews.org/report-university-of-wisconsin-madison-mulls-diversity-based-grading/
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There are twice as many impoverished white people in the US as there are impoverished black people.
Per Capita, Asian Americans make almost double White Americans make.
1 in 10 Indian-Americans is a millionaire
Class and race will never be as clear cut as you imagine.
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I also believe that America is moving towards Latin American model of racism. I don’t ever seeing racism completely going away but manifesting itself in more subtle ways. Latin America claims to be multiracial and multicultural yet their Black and Brown residents live worse off than their light skin and White counterparts. And many fair skin Latinos will be included in the ”White” racial classification
White supremacy will always continue no matter what. It is just how it is.
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It`s not just America, the whole world is moving to a two-race model. 1. Blacks. 2. And every other member of the human race! We would already be moving to an entirely post-racial model, except it is BLACK PEOPLE THEMSELVES who refuse to let go of their victim status, living in the past and a tragic historical narrative which limits their own freedom and ability to move into the future. We East Asians (Chinese in my case) are NOT becoming honorary whites/house negroes, nor a buffer between whites above and blacks below. We already feel equal and potentially ‘superior’ (culturally because of hard work, robust family values, etc.) to whites, and we don`t need to see asian people all over the media to believe in ourselves – there have already been asian congresspeople, senators, and cabinet secretaries, and surely there will be an asian-american president. Chinese persons already earn more than the average white person, and should be living proof to blacks that whites in this country are open to new ethnicities, EVEN IF we are threatening to dominate elite educational systems and in the future elite corporations and the public sector. Black people who never experienced slavery or segregation complain like it just happened yesterday, well how about Chinese people who immigrate to the US from a war-torn century where the average Chinese person has been the target of oppression, invasion, genocide, war, where many tens of millions have died horribly, but no Chinese person blames others for these acts leading to their condition, they just work hard and look forward to a brighter future, both in China and in other countries where they emigrate.
Black people wake up! Stop buying into the race victim narrative, stop blaming whites, and wake up to the vast possibilities of the 21st century.
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@Kiwi
The point is that ethnically-speaking anybody can earn any leadership position in this country, right up to the office of the President. The ‘first asian-american president’ could be a man, a woman, mixed-ethnicity, married to a white/asian/black/latino, it doesn`t matter. What matters are their policies, vision, and executive leadership abilities.
Historically in Japan generations of ethnic/tribal mixing took place before the Japanese ‘Yamato’ people emerged as a homogeneous identity. China may be mostly ‘Han’ but this was also a pan-tribal identity itself, and China later emerged to be a multi-ethnic state where non-Han ruled for hundreds of years. Chinese national leaders have spoken different native languages and there`s no fuss there. America needs to do the same in its evolution forward. The above blog post laments the loss of binary racial categories, racial mixing, loss of racial identity, etc., and then attempts to re-establish/re-define such categories, by saying anyone who doing well is white or honorary white, and anyone doing badly is black. This is backwards-looking, self-defeating, denies people their full individual identity, and misunderstands the true reality of what is happening on the ground, which is that most people are ready to move to a post-racial society, and rely on our common identity as ‘Americans’. We need leaders to help move this process forwards, not reactionary and racist thinking.
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Bran,
Some people might find your talk a bit paternalistic. Have you ever held joined or held office in any organization that is majority African-American? How well do you understand their concerns?
I also wonder if you ever studied US history past high school or taken any Asian American history courses. Your interpretation of both US history and Chinese history, as well as your depiction of the global Chinese diaspora sounds like you read it out of a fairy tale book. Also, you castigate Black Americans for “Living in the Past”, but it seems like you feel that it is perfectly OK to forget or even delete Asian American history. Are you advocating that black Americans do the same, ie, collectively forget their history? What history should we learn then? Should we even learn history? Should we even study the present?
Example: The recent rollback in requirements under the Voter Registration Act. Does being concerned about that mean that people are living in the past?
You also mentioned that people “misunderstand the true reality of what is happening on the ground “. Is there one true reality that everyone experiences? Have you tried to understand other people’s “true reality”?
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@ Kiwi and Jefe:
Idk about you guys, but this Bran person’s comment doesn’t seem to jibe with me for some reason. Why do I get the feeling this person is white and not Chinese as he claims. My radar is pinging.
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@Kiwi
Oh yes, I could tell he was basing his argument on some Texas hick county textbook, but even a thoroughly whitewashed Chinese-American would NEVER use the term “We East Asians”. Only a non-Asian could do that.
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I can assure you I am Chinese not white, and I have studied history with a passion. Rather than arguing the facts, several of you are making personal attacks against me. Of course since you want to see things through a racial lens, you question my race and ethnicity. I was born in China, grew up speaking Chinese and English, and have moved back to China – a country I love – for many years. I use the word asian because that is commonly understood in american culture, actually I think East Asians (confucian culture) and Southeast Asians (non-confucian) are very different. I certainly don`t believe in any ‘Texas hick county textbook’, actually you can read a book called “Lies my teacher told me: Everything your american textbook got wrong” to see how high school history textbooks are little more than propaganda for white European culture.
I think black americans should deeply study their history of oppression, and then live the same as if it happened 1000 years ago and not yesterday. I know this goes against having a ‘collective story/memory’ which emphasizes oppression and victimhood, but maintaining this ‘historical viewpoint’ means that your future is restricted by the past.
I don`t know about recent rollbacks in the Voter Registration act, but if this is happening now of course I say be concerned about it and act – but because it`s happening NOW.
I have not spent time personally with african-american organizations. Is this relevant? Whatever good work they do, I did not criticize the existence or nature of these organizations. I criticize this blog post for trying to slot everyone into a black vs. white identity, and saying that whites are by definition the winners and anyone who is a loser is black. So a black person can never be a winner except by becoming an ‘honorary white’ – this is a racist and also self-defeating position – why can`t anyone other than white be a winner? When asians beat whites at their own game (educational and vocational achievement within the rules of the system), its not because asians have suddenly become white, but because they have been playing the game for thousands of years and are good at it.
@Kiwi
Now I see what you were trying to get at by saying the first asian-american president would be a woman married to a white man. you are insinuating that asian women are most likely to be accepted into a ‘white patriarchy’ right, and of course would marry a white man.
Well, here are the facts.
Asian people generally prefer Asian mates, but because the Asian population is so low in the US, they are open to marrying other ethnicities. As of 2010, about 28% of asian women marry outside their ethnicity, while 17% of asian males marry outside. These percentages have been constantly decreasing over the previous decade as the asian population in the US grows, such that asian men and women have more asian mates to choose from. Considering that asian people only make up 5% of the US population, if asian people were actually color-blind you would expect that 95% would marry outside their ethnicity. Both asian women and men prefer asian mates, but asian women are more open to marrying outside because in traditional cultures men are generally advantaged over women (agricultural societies became patriarchal due to social stratification based on power and violence), so traditional women are more willing to marry into a modern culture (and be liberated from traditional roles), than traditional men would marry into a modern culture (and lose the privilege of traditional roles). But in practice, asian men and women would prefer to marry inside their ethnic group. So if in the future, the first asian-american president was a woman, it is most likely- and becoming over more likely, that she was married to an asian man than any other ethnicity. If she happened to marry a white man (as you mentioned), few would consider her a race traitor because it would be assumed she chose the man for reasons other than his race, which in fact would work against him. There is no sense that she submitted to a ‘white patriarchy’ because there is a widespread perception among asian people that asian women may choose men for socioeconomic (higher social standing, modern culture) or individualistic reasons (e.g. personal chemistry) – rather than racial reasons.
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Gee Bran,
We are all familiar with James W. Loewen’s books, including “Lies my Teacher Told Me” and “Teaching What Really Happened”, as it is quoted many times on this blog and has formed the subject of several posts. Other research topics of Loewen have also found its way on this blog (e.g., Sundown towns, The Mississippi Chinese, Mississippi History textbooks, etc.) But, some of what you said sounded as if you are not familiar with his works. I was even about to recommend that YOU read them.
If you are familiar with his works, and you have indeed “studied history with a passion”, then we might wonder where you got some of your information from and if you ever question what you “studied”.
For example, have you ever studied Asian American history? It sounded like you did not know much about it, not much more than what is presented in white American history textbooks and the U.S. media (and possibly also Chinese media). It sounded consistent with the “Model Minority Stereotype” which is used to cover up most of Asian American history.
The next is your suggestion “I think black Americans should deeply study their history of oppression, and then live the same as if it happened 1000 years ago and not yesterday”.
– Indeed, that sounds like you got the inspiration from reading Primary School Chinese history textbooks which also present a somewhat fairytale depiction of the “5,000 years of unbroken Chinese history” which is taught to Chinese children so that they can learn the ultimate superiority of “Chinese culture” (despite how much it gets transformed), omit its atrocities, and make excuses for (somewhat more recent) interferences from the West.
– The West could also depict its history in that way, as an unbroken evolution from the Greeks and Romans or even further back to the Egyptians. In fact, the West does depict its history in that way, but it generally is not used for Westerners (and especially Americans) to view themselves as culturally superior to the same extent that Chinese do. They only need to be taught that the West has ruled the entire world, and they are on top and cover up how they got there.
– the suggestion for Black Americans to look back 1000 years is basically a suggestion for them to derive their psychological well-being and inspiration by looking not at what happened “yesterday” (meaning the past 400 years), but further back to periods of cultural glory in Africa prior to interference from Europeans. This is also a fairytale approach meant to bolster pride and self-esteem and omits a lot of what happened. It also suggests that you are not that familiar with black American history, to even suggest that an approach is even possible.
–> It is as if you suggest that African American (or black ethnic) studies in the USA should focus on the cultural inheritance from the civilizations in Africa that predated the European colonization (or interference from Europe). Whereas that can be incorporated in such a course of study, to focus on that would detract from what created Black Americans’ current cultural and political situation today.
What it CAN do, and which it does to some extent, is lead credence to counteract any current of thought of any African racial inferiority. And we do need that too – as it still pops up in white people’s minds all the time.
–> That is why I asked if you participated in any black or African American organizations in any big way. If you did, then you would know your ideas did not make much sense.
If you still cannot see why your suggestion was so “OFF”. then imagine if you told people labelled as ethnic “Eurasian” in Singapore and Malaysia (who are mostly of mixed Asian descent anyhow), to counter their feelings of being spurned by the European colonizers by delving into pre-European Asian history and basking in the glory of ancient Chinese and Indian civilizations, thereby achieving success. You would be viewed as a pure crackpot.
I also challenge you to question everything you ever learned about Chinese history and culture, esp. what was NOT taught to you, what was propaganda and what kinds of lies might have crept into what you learned (similar to the way that Loewen challenges US history). Imagine what Uyghurs are forced to endure when THEY learn history. I hear my friends who grew up in China saying that they should go back to Turkey.
That was big news last year when the SCOTUS ruled that the restrictions be relaxed. It was a county in Alabama that brought this to the Supreme Court. ALABAMA; for pete’s sake.
–> the fact that you were unaware of such a huge decision affecting Civil Rights in the USA caused me to question how much you have studied about Civil Rights history in the USA.
I do agree that there should be alternate ways of achieving success in the USA apart from attaining “honorary white” status. That is one reason I reject the Model Minority Stereotype, where one becomes a “good minority” by becoming a sort of honorary white. And I hope that the USA does not devolve into a racial stratification system that puts whites on top and splits non-whites into “good ones” and “bad ones”. But your suggestion of preventing this by asking blacks to look back to its pre-European glorious history indicates that you missed the point of this post – that such a racial stratification system is one imposed by whites, or one that whites can live with. It would not be affected by whether or not black Americans delve into pre-European African history.
Really, have you studied African American and Asian American history? Does not sound like it.
Finally, Kiwi’s statistics are much more on the mark. About 1/2 of US born Asian American women marry out. If you are pulling out statistics from somewhere to make a point, even MORE reason why you need to question the history you allegedly “studied”. And Kiwi pointed out how Asians in the USA are far from beating whites at their own game. Agree with Kiwi that when you do things like that that it appears that you are not very familiar with the current and historical situation of Asian Americans.
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Jefe, I dont trust your take on black American history , and , what black American organisations lead with about black American history….
You really dont know about black American cultural history , so , you dont know what people are missing. Like many black American organisations , you lead with statistics , civil rights details , political history struggle , but very little cultural referance or knowledge…seriously , your Afro diasporic cultural history knowledge is anemic
My son is learning candomble ketu sticking patterns, and these are the African rhythms , that came from the cultures of the people brought over in slavery, the direct links , that are way more than a thousand years old…its amazing how the organic fundimentals of samba, funk , hip hop , jazz , calypso, mambo ,etc etc , are in those cultural traditions , and how much struggle and obstacles those cultural traditions faced…a huge part of the black American struggle is defined in the obstacles of its cultural history…and it is a blind spot in political agenda rhetoric
And the insights are stupendous, and have great insights into how these grooves evolved to become foundations of all the cultures of the countries who brought slaves in great numbers to the Americas .
How can you know what was ripped off if you dont know what it is in the first place ? In fact , many black American organisations with political agendas from sixties rhetoric , actualy tear down black American culture , and have no feel for the incredible nuances and real struggle their great grand parents went through
I know you kind of tried to define what you think its value was in your statement , I just dont trust your judgement on that subject
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I also see the Asian American women dating statistics keep getting stretched and stretched….those dam statistics
Why dont you look at it as Asian American women are a very small percentage of total Asian women..?..in that context , most Asian women are with Asian men..
You know , many of these criticisms of Asian women dating out in America , whether immigrant or native born , could be leveled at me , an American male going to Brazil…because , you know I didnt go there looking for American women to hook up with….and , I have a big affinity for Brazilian culture, and assimilated many aspects of Brazilian culture in my life…I mean , you could run all the same tired pseudo psycho analisis on me about abandoning American women , and beleive me , my American privalege evaporates fast if I live more than a few years…
I mean someone could try to run that on me , but , id be in their face about it really fast…because it comes off as bs to me
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Re: B.R.’s
If it makes one feel any better, the feeling is mutual.
@Kiwi
You beat me to it.
Yes, invoking the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype invalidates any contextualizing about non-Americans to talk about Americans in the USA.
The one he did with respect to his “atrocity” theme caused me to remember some of the severe trauma I experienced as a child. I thought my maternal grandmother was long dead and gone, yet I still got that horrible stuff rubbed back in my face. But at least I can handle it much better now than when I was a 6-8 year old kid.
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No, perpetual foreigner has nothing to do with what i said, and i clarified it…this is something you both try to stick on me and it is false…i didnt equate my situation as an immigrant with any Asian born in the USA, i equate it to coming to a country with a culture you love and wanting to identify with that culture including date the people of that culture…and how there is nothing wrong with that…and to be frank with you, I never have judged people for who they want to be with , which cultures they feel an afinity for , and why they might not want to identify with suposedly their culture….i dont like hot dogs and rock and nascar racing….if someone has superficial reasons for wanting to date people, they will suffer for it, and , all the factors you ascribe as psychologicly wrong about Asian women marrying so called marrying white men to move up in social status, can be defined quite powerfully in intra racial relationships…people try to make it seem like they are exclusive properties for people of color marrying white people…its not
to ruin very great testimonies about Asian American histories and stories, with constant obsecion with who Asian American women are dating is perplexing, and , it just dogs across thread after thread…you both dont miss a click to chime in about that subject
no one wants to see you with an Asian women more than I do, Kiwi…why get hung up on a small percentage of Asian American women who date white men? Or is it Asian American or nothing? Because that aspect is bringing down great points about white racism against Asians…I dont know your relationship status , Jefe…but, ill tell you this, if a certain type of women was my most object of desire and that is what makes my world go round, I would go to the ends of the earth to be near more available women of that type
Black American culture? Well if you are going to make statements about it, you better get it right…you cant just blunder your political agenda ahead speaking about black American culture when you cant really speak to what it is , its real history and obstacles and struggle ….and what it means to American culture…
black American culture has been defining how Americans express ourselves in a huge way…and that culture has been abused and ripped off and surpressed as much if not more than any other culture in America, that has made as much a differance in our expresion as it has…yet I see the real definition and people involved get shuffled off to Bufalo a little more as each decade passes
what people have to get is that, since the 60’s, the political agenda diolouge has exhausted itself out…its been hyper run through the greese many times over …but, are people really feeling fullfilled? It seems there is a lot of empty feeling and frustration and rehashing the same issues just inventing new semantical phrases that are quite inadequate, to be honest, and descending into never ending trails of anti interracial pseudo psycho analisis bordering on obsecion…is that all its come to now?
the cultural racism, ignorance and arrogance diologue , history , and obligation to tell the whole truth about it , is wide open , barely charted territory , and , underneath, it is the real story that blares at us from the media on a daily basis….its the real template to build off of, so it can join hands with the already worn out political agenda rhetoric that is just floundering in its own running the gamet of hashing it over….and only comes up with now deviding people and choosing who is worthy and eliminationg hordes of others for not apearing to fit the limiting identity of someone who wants to fight racism
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“Re: B.R.’s
I just dont trust your judgement on that subject”
jefe
“If it makes one feel any better, the feeling is mutual.”
I did say “that subject”, Afro diasporic culture , or black American culture…
look Jefe, you dont know what you are talking about, where I have invested my whole life in studying and understanding the history , struglles and briliance of Afro diasporic cultures and their origins, you have not…I dont just study it, I immerse myself deeply in it and have found a voice , for sure i have discovered the very real rewards from spending the hours , years and decades of immersing myself in it
and that also means, finding out the real history of the obstacles and struggles of that culture, how those prejudices seep into our daily lives and forms huge mass opinions about it out of ignorance…the most mind blowing thing , to see the very same people just copying it , aberating it and claiming it to be theirs, while making huge profits over it, and being in power to define it and manipulate it how they want people to perceive it while diminishing and eliminating the most powerful parts
so you cant just sluff off what I have gone the extra mile to try to understand, revealing just where you are coming from with this subject….you havent put in the hours and years and decades and sweat , blood and tears to just sluff off what i am saying
go ahead and dont trust what Im saying about Afro diasporic culture, or anyone else, but, when I shut off the computor, it is part of my life..and that means trying to salvage it, trying to find out the real truth about it, and be true to the incredible individuals who brought us these concepts…because they are individual artists that make up a bigger picture…who each one has their personal innovation and story and history and struggles and obstacles to overcome
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Thank you all for your comments. These are the main points I hear, and will try to address them one by one (I don`t believe any of these accusations are fundamentally true).
1. I know little about asian-american and american black history.
2. I have bought into a Model Minority stereotype, created by white people for the benefit for white people only.
3. Asian-american women, at least those born in America, go for white men because of white patriarchal privilege which places white men ahead of other men.
4. I am suggesting that black american culture should look to pre-colonial African history for models of success, notwithstanding this ignores the unique plight of african-americans over the last 400 years.
5. Asian-americans as a whole are not beating other groups in the game of global capitalism.
—–
My comments:
1. What am I missing about asian and black american history? I can only READ or HEAR about slavery, chinese immigration exclusionary policies, Jim Crow laws, sundown towns, japanese internment camps, educational quotas, plus all manner of group and social prejudices. I can`t live most of those because they are before my time, the US has evolved more in 30 years – one generation – than most societies have evolved in hundreds of years. History is accelerating worldwide. Especially in the US, there is very little holding back any truly individual of ambition who believes in him or herself, society cares more about someone`s socioeconomic contribution than their individual or group identity. Even if an ethnic group were failing as a whole, no individual has to fail alongside it, they have free will.
2. Asian-americans, particularly east asian (chinese/japanese/korean, i.e. confucian) cultures have done very well by every objective measure, which is no different than the story of every foreign country (all over Asia especially) they have emigrated to, where they eventually formed an elite capitalist and/or technocratic class that controlled the greatest proportion of the national wealth, without necessarily seeking outright political control. Asian-americans work hard, respect their elders, have low crime rates (mostly restricted to gang activity), practice non-violence, believe in self-discipline, are community/group oriented, are humble, value intellectual ability, are emotionally-oriented. Aren`t these characteristics positive and a desirable model to follow?
3. If american-born asian women didn`t discriminate against non-asian men, we would expect that the large majority (95%) would marry non-asian men, since assuming random population mixing (not totally true, because asians tend to socialized among themselves), an asian-american women would only meet an asian man 1 out of every 20 men they met. Yet the majority, even though american-born, choose to marry another asian. Why should american-born asian women reject white men all out of proportion? Seems like white patriarchal privilege isn`t all that effective, it can`t even provide statistical parity for white men, let alone give white men an ‘advantage’ over asian men.
4. I never suggested black people should look to traditional african culture as a social model. I think history should be studied for lessons about humanity, NOT to lock oneself into a group-based narrative. It was suggested that if blacks chose collective amnesia for the last 350 years of history, they would be losing a critical part of their social history. Nearly 100 million chinese people have died in the last 170 years, due to state repression, government policy, intentional genocide, civil war, class struggle. Yet not one single chinese person focuses on this history, for chinese people even 10 years ago is ancient history, they are focused on the present and the future.
5. The fact that traditional american institutions such as Ivy league universities impose numerical limits on chinese entry illustrate asian-americans are indeed proportionally more successful in the game of capitalism. This is an understandable defensive reaction from status quo elements. Students turned away from ivy leagues will still attend top institutions, and over the next several decades will, on the whole, start to permeate the elite strata in the corporate and public sectors. Predominantly white institutions weren’t prepared to see one ethnic group take over campuses, or perhaps even non-asian, non-jew representation all of a sudden fall to 25% and less, but over time there is nothing fundamentally opposed to elite society being composed of less than 50%, or even 40%, or even 30% etc., white people. Of course, speaking more widely, at a global level, white american culture has basically resigned itself to being only the second largest economic and political force in the 21st century. Even maintaining the dominant global military force will be scant consolation, because state-to-state warfare among nuclear states is not an option, and geopolitical strategies are based less on military power than capitalist business tactics.
Real social stratification now and in the future is not defined by ‘race’, but by socioeconomic relations and our various positional outcomes within the international capitalist game. Stop blaming history of groups and live in the individual present.
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3. I agree that asian men prefer asian women to a greater extent than asian women prefer asian men. I also don’t see this as a problem, even as an asian man. It`s a natural result of factors coming from both sides, both the greater attractiveness of asian females among ALL groups, and the lesser attractiveness of asian males in comparison to asian females, and also the greater willingness of asian females to accept other ethnic groups in comparison to asian men’s willingness. In asia, I don’t see large swaths of asian women excluding asian men (although I guess that if 2% of the female population actively sought western men, this would still be tens of millions of women in china and might seem like a lot but really isn’t), do you mean among american-born asian females? If they are excluding non-american born asian men – for cultural reasons – this is different than if they are excluding american-born asian men. I’ve seen figures up to 48% of american-born asian women marrying non-asians, and 37% of american-born asian men. This 10-percentage point difference was already there among non-american born asians. If anything the proportional disparity has actually decreased, suggesting few barriers to asian male/non-asian female mixing, except for what was accounted for in the first place by the fact of being asian (rather than american-born). Anecdotally speaking, I would say that in the US, asian women have an easier time simply because they don’t have to do anything to receive attention, whereas asian men have to ‘change’ their culturally-conditioned behavior to suit western norms in order to attract american-born women. This is due more to western gender roles more than racial discrimination. In terms of non-romantic social interaction, well at least economic interaction, the evidence does not show that asian women are having a easier time of it compared to asian men competing in the labor market. In fact, gender pay gap is greater among asians than other races, and both asian women and men face about the same degree of discrimination (31% greater discrimination back in 2000) by whites in being promoted to higher-level management.
4. As far as asians ‘beating whites at their own game’, this is because asians aim for higher educational achievement, and are willing to work harder than everyone else. The fact of there being a white/asian pay gap does not detract from asians winning in the capitalistic system, the fact that asians have the highest average income levels of any group in the US shows that EVEN WITH discrimination, they can still come out ahead- by being better educated and harder-working. As the pay gap lessens over time (it has been shown that the main reason for this gap is because most asians are immigrants from overseas, most of the discrimination is against being foreign-born, not mostly based on race), and as asians move into upper management and ownership positions, asians will likely start to outperform whites even more significantly, by many standard economic measures. Educational institutions may have some incentive to limit asian representation due to non-strictly academic goals they may have, but corporations mainly want to make money and particularly if asians remain more productive for a given pay, there will be strong incentive to hire and promote asians. Of course, as more asians move into upper management and therefore into positions of hiring authority, we will see an equalization and perhaps even a ‘reverse’ asian/white pay gap emerge if asians show racial preferences in favor of other asians. There isn’t really any reason or evidence that whites can ‘remain on top’, either domestically or internationally, certainly most asians don’t perceive it that way. In fact, history has shown that wherever chinese immigrants go they usually end up disproportionately represented among the middle/upper classes, and even often the dominant economic/merchant class, even when faced with much greater ethnic discrimination and even lower population numbers than in the US. Complaining is fine when there is some practical result, but not when it is self-defeating.
some sources:
Click to access AAPR_asain%20americans%20glass%20ceilings.pdf
http://www.epi.org/publication/ib323-asian-american-unemployment/
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2014/06/03/closing-pay-gap-asian-american-women
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Kiwi and Bran,
I don’t want to break up the discussion about Asian success or dating, but just to interject some reality — Bran, I’m glad you are a proud Asian immigrant
but Asian people are not one big monolithic group, and all black people are not one big monolithic group
you can toot your horn for Chinese immigrants all day long but there are black and brown immigrants who can also toot it right back at you
because African and Caribbean immigrants are also groups that are doing financially, politically, and educationally Great in the U.S.
African students are doing just as well as Asian students academically:
In a side-by-side comparison of 2000 census data by sociologists including John R. Logan at the Mumford Center, State University of New York at Albany, black immigrants from Africa averaged the highest educational attainment of any population group in the country, including whites and Asians.
For example, 43.8 percent of African immigrants had achieved a college degree, compared with 42.5 of Asian-Americans, 28.9 percent for immigrants from Europe, Russia and Canada and 23.1 percent of the U.S. population as a whole.
That defies the usual stereotypes of Asian-Americans as the only “model minority.” Yet the traditional American narrative has rendered the high academic achievements of black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean invisible, as if that were a taboo topic.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-03-18/news/0703180344_1_black-immigrants-high-achieving-immigrants-biracial-couples
Eric Holder, Colin Powell, and Susan Rice are first generation Caribbean descendants who did pretty dam well for themselves in the US.
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and as a black/brown immigrant to the US, you know what bothers me the most,
other immigrants who come to this country and put down black Americans! I’ve had to check plenty of other Jamaicans and Latinos who do this.
the civil rights struggle in the 1950s and 60s, is what opened the doors for black, Asian, and other NON-WHITE immigrants alike–
it was black Americans who put their blood and lives on the line, so that people like you, Bran, could one day sit on the internet and discuss how much they suck and need to get educated.
Black Americans worked hard to open doors in the USA and Asian Americans also benefited from their progress — so Asian success in America had some help.
I love how some Asians complain about Affirmative Action, when Asians were barred from attending white Universities in the US south also.
The story of how Asian-Americans were included — then largely removed — from race-conscious efforts starts five decades ago, when the idea of affirmative action began to take hold. President John F. Kennedy coined the term to suggest the need for an aggressive effort against discrimination.
Over the next few years, the intended groups were identified as African-Americans, Latinos, Asian-Americans and Native Americans (or, as they were called on federal forms in the mid-1960s, Negroes, Spanish Americans, Orientals and American Indians.)
Texas has a long history of institutional discrimination. A Supreme Court case against the university in 1950, Sweatt v. Painter, punctured the “separate but equal” doctrine perpetrated by Southern institutions.
Hemon Sweatt, a black man from Houston, had been denied entry to the University of Texas Law School and sent to a substandard, ad hoc law school for African-Americans. Asians and Latinos had also been barred.
While most people think of blacks and Latinos when they think of victims of past discrimination, Asian immigrants, who first came to build railways in the late 19th century, were also mistreated.
To some in Texas, the state with the third largest Asian-American population, after California and New York, the mistreatment does not feel like ancient history. Anti-miscegenation laws, in effect here until 1967, and separate-but-equal laws applied to all nonwhites.
while Asians like Bran, are tooting their own horns and singing the praises of white people — white Americans in Ivy League Universities now consider Asians to be “competition” and want to kick you out the club.
Within a couple of decades, the academic success of many Asian-Americans resulted in elite schools quietly keeping their numbers from climbing too high. (The mean SAT score of Asian-Americans is now 63 points higher than that of whites.)
“If you look at the Ivy League, you will find that Asian-Americans never get to 20 percent of the class,” said Daniel Golden, author of “The Price of Admission” and editor at large for Bloomberg News. “The schools semi-consciously say to themselves, ‘We can’t have all Asians.’
When reading recommendations you see these words—”diligent,” “hardworking”—because people tend to see East Asians in a certain way. You rarely see “creative” or “strong intellectual bent,” and they are less likely to be seen as “freethinking.”
A lot of secondary teachers find it difficult to connect culturally with Asian Americans — at Dartmouth there was not much discrimination against Asian Americans, since they were considered a historical minority at the school
http://www.businessinsider.com/secrets-of-dartmouth-admissions-office-2012-10
I am not trying to take away from Chinese or other Asian achievements in the US, but Asians have and do benefit from laws that were designed to benefit black Americans.
It’s great that Asians are getting near perfect SAT scores and have high application rates to Universities but at the end of the day, it’s what happens after college that happens and how well non-whites integrate into white America — Asians will still have trouble breaking through the “bamboo ceiling”– and are thought of as robots.
Asians are going to be working, sitting and looking upwards with the African and Caribbean immigrant descendants who are getting the same jobs as you.
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correction:
“it’s what happens after college that counts and how well non-whites integrate into white America”
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Bran, I am a bit pressed for time at the moment, but I will briefly address a couple of your points.
1. US history
If you have “read” about any of those things, you certainly seem not to see how any of it applies to the present, how we got here where we are today. In fact, what you said comes straight out of the “Teflon Theory of History”
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/09/teflon-theory-of-history/)
Belief in the Teflon theory of history has created ebb and flow in the USA. It is how we end up with Jim Crow a few decades after the Civil War ended. And it is why protection of Voting rights has been eroded.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/voting-rights-act-of-1965/)
2. “Confucian culture” ethnic groups
On the one hand, you say that we can more or less ignore the history of what happened over 30 years ago, on the other hand, you ascribe unique elements to cultural legacies developed over thousands of years to success today.
And you treat Asian ethnic groups as monolithic groups.
Are you a big fan of Amy Chua? 😮
Indian Americans, in general tend to be very highly educated and include a large number of higher middle income professionals. Are you going to say that it is due uniquely to their cultural inheritance or to the fact that few Indian coolies were imported to the USA in the mid – late 19th century and most came in the post-1965 brain drain? In countries which have large numbers of coolie descendant Indians and few brain drain, we have very different outcomes.
Ethnic Vietnamese in France mostly came before the Vietnam War and for study. Their families are among the professional class in France. The ones who came to USA were mostly refugees. A few were from educated professional backgrounds, but many were not. They also faced a different set of experiences in the USA than in France. So we have a very different set of outcomes.
(For each example, we can show that different characteristics produce different results in each case.)
Chinese Americans are particularly VERY DIFFERENT in their make-up and histories with different outcomes too. We have at least 4 different categories (that can be broken down even further), eg.
a. directly or indirectly descendant from pre-1965 coolie labour or paper sons (which are also indirectly descendant from the 19th century labourers)
b. post-1965 brain drain
c. Refugees
d. post-1965 “sweatshop” migrants
(We could break it further to analyse the experience and outcome of each).
You attributed outcomes in the USA to inherent characteristics of each ethnic group based on their “cultural inheritance” (eg, Confucianism), not on the social characteristics of each immigrant and the prevailing climate in the USA. Don’t you find it strange that the USA depicted Japanese Americans as evil subhumans in the 1940s and then as the first example of “model minority” in 1966. There was little new immigration from Japan in those 20 years. What the USA did was strip them of their property and social organization, and spread them across the USA and then put them forward as a “MODEL” (which they later expanded to include Chinese Americans). The purpose was to quell black Americans and keep them in order, and justify continued racism towards them.
On the other hand, “Yellow Peril” has never disappeared. They created the model minority stereotype in 1966, but it was not actively promoted then as the USA was fighting a war in Vietnam, which required Asians to be dehumanized. They waited until several years after War, and esp. after Vincent Chin That was needed to quell Asian Americans and keep them in order, as well as keeping blacks in line and
OK, we can say that some cultural characteristics of the ancestors of non-Anglo immigrant groups *might* have some impact on modern populations, but that would not come close to explaining the outcomes in the US if we ignore the social characteristics of the immigrants, the political and social climate in the USA at the time of arrival and thereafter, not to mention the social and political structure that has been set up in the USA to accommodate them.
4. Use of pre-colonial history or cultural legacy
Psychologically, sure, we can look back to pre-colonial cultures for several purposes, e.g.,
– as inspiration
– to refute racial inferiority or superiority complexes
But much of African-American social and cultural inheritance has occurred in the last 400 years. Much of it was developed during the slavery period, for example.
But then you quote something as an “example” (again, Model minority trap) to “teach” people how to think (contradicting yourself):
Implying that the social and cultural inheritance of the Chinese is from an ancient culture and not derived from social upheavals in the last 170 years. So, Chinese do not have to “dwell” in the past and look forward. Why, indeed, can’t black Americans?
If 10 years ago is already ancient history, why look at the history and societies of 1000 years ago at all? Why did you advocate that?
I suppose you think it was a complete waste of US Congress’s time to apologize in 2012 for the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. You advocate that Chinese don’t focus on their history (in China). What about the history of Chinese in America?
A cultural crisis has been evolving in China, which tried to rebound from the Cultural revolution by instituting capitalistic reforms while simultaneously imposing the one child policy and the Hukou system yet maintaining communist control. Modern Chinese culture is almost unrecognizable. Is the way to deal with the present by forgetting the past?
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Sorry about the bolding error.
Should be
in 2012 for the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882. You advocate that Chinese don’t focus on their history (in China). What about the history of Chinese in America?
A cultural crisis has been evolving in China, which tried to rebound from the Cultural revolution by instituting capitalistic reforms while simultaneously imposing the one child policy and the Hukou system yet maintaining communist control. Modern Chinese culture is almost unrecognizable. Is the way to deal with the present by forgetting the past?
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@Kiwi,
I saw some Perpetual Foreigner errors in Bran’s arguments. For example, comparing the dating preferences of women in China with Asian-American women.
And he attributes the Bamboo Ceiling to discrimination against foreigners, or not being assimilated into American culture.
Yet he says don’t focus on history for the past couple hundred years. Look forward. Use your cultural legacy from a 1000 years ago to get you there.
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An expression of good will?
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/punk-slugs-senior-west-village-cops-article-1.1900570
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@ sb32199
This is a WARNING: If you continue to spam my blog with off-topic accounts of violent Blacks and Muslims, I will ban you as a source of spam.
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@Linda
You yourself say that asians and blacks are not a ‘monolithic group’. I think asian-americans can and should thank the LEADERS and PARTICIPANTS of the civil rights movement for opening doors for immigrants, not necessarily today’s ‘black community’. Jewish leaders and individuals in the 50s and 60s were also deeply involved in legislative changes (providing a large percentage of civil rights lawyers, financial backing, lobbying, direct action). The 1965 Immigration Act was proposed and passed by white liberal leaders, I haven’t heard of evidence of a direct connection between this and the black civil rights movement (which Kiwi asserts), if anything black leaders have often been wary of mass immigration from developing countries leading to competition for lower-skilled jobs. After King’s death many black communities turned to senseless violence and rioting, listened to ever more radical black leaders who lay all present problems on the outside world, and even rejected and vilified Jewish communities (anti-semitic attitudes more prevalent among blacks than any other group today) despite decades of their support. Asian-americans have lots in common with african-americans in the outside struggle against white racism, but it seems like the black community of today places too much blame on the ‘white system’. This attitude of victimhood is self-defeating. In fact, your statement that asian-americans will not succeed in America because of white racism, e.g. they are ‘thought of as robots’, seems to extend this victim attitude onto asian-americans. First, Jews were an ethnic group that suffered educational and work discrimination, yet they now greatly outperform white anglo-saxon protestants by any measure. Second, if asian-americans do not succeed in the workplace, they will adapt by becoming more creative or assertive, or whatever the traits they find they lack (no change in skin color needed) that are holding them back. Not to say no discrimination or prejudice exists, but they are not the key factor to success.
@Jefe
Actually, I consider Amy Chua to be a failed parent. Her system of ‘tough love’ should be the starting foundation but not the be-all and end-all of parental responsibility. Sure, as a lowest-common denominator strategy it works to ensure children achieve greater than average success within the system, as measured by academic grades and career income, and applied more moderately leads to chinese socioeconomic success as a whole, but it does so by placing barriers on a person’s true human potential, which includes emotional growth, inner discovery of talents/interests/passions, social leadership skills. You get above-average results but sacrifice greatness. Instead of applying an extremist version of the traditional chinese educational model, how about keeping the good parts and updating it with modern, individualistic educational practices. Isn’t Jewish parenting closer to that?
Actually I didn’t say – or at least mean to say – that one should look back to ancient times and derive cultural identity from that (although influences from ancient times are actually there). I used a figure of speech (‘1000 years rather than yesterday’) to express the view that if a community can only derive an identity that leads to a victim mentality and constantly living in the past, then it would be better to act is if events from the previous generation or more happened in the very distant past. We should study history, but not go overboard in ascribing historical causes and then limits on what we can achieve in the present. Mao Zedong figured he could impose an entirely new social order both in China and the world based on Communist doctrine, and tried to wipe out all elements of traditional chinese culture in a single generation. He had the backing of most of the country to do this. His understanding of the past was very simple – ‘correct historical understanding based on class struggle’. In fact he had near unlimited power to reshape china, particularly in the early years of his rule, limited by technocratic implementation ability (which is why he utterly failed) rather than (group) politics. Chinese people have for a long time been ready to adapt and change to new circumstances and cultures (much more so than westerners),
About the Senate’s apology for the Chinese Exclusion Act, is there some legal or policy ramification? Or is it just an empty, even hypocritical, gesture? I mean, it is what it is, more a reflection of current reality (e.g. special interest group pressure to do it, or easy way to increase political capital, etc.) than an pro-active action requiring some response. You could say that they were absolved to some extent decades ago already, or you could respond that they are still deeply racist and exclusionary, either way the gesture is mainly symbolic. As with all symbols, its power just depends on what you make of it, what historical narrative you choose to create for it. On the other hand, the Canadian governments involved – both federal and provincial (and not just the senate)- made the same apology but backed it up with financial reparations to survivors and families, and allocated $34 million (US equivalent, based on size of population/government, would be one-third billion dollars) to raise awareness about the issue. That’s a substantive apology (just words would have been meaningless), and my response is forgiveness. So yes, I guess there’s some gain from emotional closure with the past, but neither was there a loss before, at least at an individual level. The benefit of such an apology accrues mainly to the government because of an enhanced sense of respect or loyalty towards it, and a more inclusive sense of group identity. I would feel more compelled to work to advance the interests of the government (and the group it represents), rather than someone else.
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@Linda
Nice to see that African and Caribbean immigrants are doing so well in the US. What do you think about this blog post placing them in the lowest of a three-tier racial hierarchy? Then again, what does it take to be an ‘honorary white’? I don’t understand why Indians and Chinese are in this category, while Filipinos are ‘black’. Median income can’t possibly be a deciding factor then. What would it take for, say, Caribbean immigrants to be considered ‘honorary whites’, or even just ‘white’ (god forbid there could be a ‘super-white’ or ‘better-than-white’ category)? Certainly not educational attainment it seems.
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“Bran,
Asian-americans have lots in common with african-americans in the outside struggle against white racism, but it seems like the black community of today places too much blame on the ‘white system’. This attitude of victimhood is self-defeating.”
Linda says,
No, black Americans are not playing “victim” — they recognize their reality for what it is and are responding to it.
You act as if the 1960s was that long ago, that’s my lifetime and many others — so it’s not ancient history. White people in America were still openly calling black people “n’ggers” in 1980s before there was Any hip-hop culture to blame it on
Black Americans are not “waiting” for white people to hand them anything.
If you haven’t noticed, black Americans are in every facet of America–profession wise, they are CEOs, professors, engineers, and doctors etc —
so Asian Americans can’t tell black Americans anything new about “how to achieve” — they have been gaining and losing in America before mass Asian immigration.
So once again, while you choose to substantiate prejudice and stereotypes, you miss the bigger picture.
That’s why Jefe said to study history because you are still missing the point — this post is about “Racial Concepts in the USA, a white supremacist country, and how it affects non-whites”— it’s not about “black American achievement
_____________________________________________
but you chose to make it about black Americans –why? I don’t know
for whatever reason, white people and others like yourself, want to focus on poor black people instead of recognizing that there is a black American middle class that has ALWAYS existed and found success in a America.
but that doesn’t mean that racism has gone away and that black Americans don’t face challenges that are different than what you and other immigrants experience.
Perception, prejudice and stereotypes against them are still alive and well today —
When asked why more African and Caribbean immigrants are chosen into Ivy League Universities, here is the response from most Admissions officers:
“based on previous research by Nancy Foner and George M. Fredrickson, who co-wrote a 2004 study on immigration, ethnicity and race, was the most provocative.
“To white observers,” they wrote, “black immigrants seem more polite, less hostile, more solicitous and ‘easier to get along with.’ Native blacks are perceived in precisely the opposite fashion.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030501296_2.html
Most immigrant businesses don’t want to hire black Americans either, based on perceptions that they are “lazy”
“Mr. Woo says he isn’t prejudiced. But when he has an opening in the warehouse, he says, he is likely to fill it with another Mexican immigrant, probably recruited by his workers. Blacks have a ‘negative image,’ he says, and they don’t mix well with workers of other backgrounds.”
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0504/article_465.shtml
So No, black Americans are Not imagining things… so let’s be real
(also, there are poor and impoverished Chinese/Asians in America also.. why do people like yourself forget to mention them and only focus on the successes?
Maybe everyone should hold up impoverished Asians as the “group representative” while ignoring the Achievers, the way you do black Americans)
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“Bran,
In fact, your statement that asian-americans will not succeed in America because of white racism, e.g. they are ‘thought of as robots’, seems to extend this victim attitude onto asian-americans.”
Linda says,
Bran, I did not say that Asian-Americans will not succeed in America because of white Racism….
My point was that Asians are not the only group that are currently succeeding in the USA — Africans and Caribbeans are succeeding also and that as black and brown immigrants, we face the same challenges and are doing just as good as Asians.
I think that Asians buy into this “honorary white” thing a little too much and believe that you all are the only model minorities in the USA… you’re not
that was my point…. White American society has always used non-white immigrant groups as a buffer between them and black Americans..
I was also highlighting that no matter how much Asians, Africans, or Caribbean immigrants achieve, we are all affected by white Americas racism, one way or another —
hence Asians not being accepted into colleges because the colleges want white students to stay the majority… this is not about being a “victim”, it’s discussing reality
that’s why I said that some white American colleges and employers view Asians as “robots” and not creative or free thinkers — this is just another subtle way or rather, an excuse they can use to explain why they wish to stymy Asian growth or to somehow still view themselves as “superior” to Asians:
What happens to all the Asian-American overachievers when the test-taking ends?
The failure of Asian-Americans to become leaders in the white-collar workplace does not qualify as one of the burning social issues of our time. But it is a part of the bitter undercurrent of Asian-American life that so many Asian graduates of elite universities find that meritocracy as they have understood it comes to an abrupt end after graduation.
http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/index3.html
Despite all of this, Asians, blacks, and other non-white groups are achieving the “American Dream” in the USA, we’ve all “adapted” in order to integrate into American society — that’s why we have all achieved a modicum of success
but Asians do face a “ceiling” just like every other minority group and for you to deny it, means you are choosing to be willfully ignorant of this fact.
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@Kiwi
“Nothing would ever have changed if blacks hadn’t pushed for civil rights reform. Think about it.”
Do you have any evidence at all? Or is it more an unfully examined assumption that feeds a narrow ‘triumphant historical narrative’? The black civil rights movement took place within a much larger trend of social upheaval based on widespread pushes for equality, between social classes (huge movement towards liberalism, socialism, progressive thinking in general), genders (women’s movement), countries (third world decolonization), and later gay liberation, anti-war, etc. Anti-discriminatory laws, immigration reform, multicultural policy, these were global trends and changes were happening in many countries at the same period from the 50s to early 70s. Other post-colonial countries such as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand also abandoned ‘white’ immigration policies and greatly increased third world immigration, in fact going much further than the US in their multicultural goals. European countries like the UK, France, Germany, Sweden, etc. also started accepting large numbers of minority immigrants. The 1965 Immigration Act was passed near the height of the Cold War and the tail end of a decade or more of decolonization, when America was trying to assert its dominance on the world stage, where it needed to position itself as the leader of the free world, particularly among newly liberated, developing countries, against the spread of international communism. How could it do this while maintaining an outright racist, ethnocentric policy that excluded all of the developing world, which it claimed to be a model for, flying against the face of liberal trends and opening borders in every other major western country? Even at the time the Immigration Act was legislated there was little public awareness about it, there was no grassroots push from black or other political groups, no declaration or celebration of triumph when it passed. American society, despite all the changes and movements, was still not fully ready for such change. The democratic backers (Kennedy, Cellar, Johnson, many others) of the bill would not even acknowledge there would be increased immigration, or that there would be any changes in racial/ethnic composition. There was no substantial domestic constituency in support of such a bill, but the leaders of the democratic party felt it was a necessary change following the larger (and international) sociopolitical trends of the time. We could also speculate that the democratic party, in the face of a permanent loss of southern support following the civil rights act, saw in its interest a change in voter demographics and future support from new immigrant populations. The black civil rights movement itself took place against a backdrop of larger historical change, and not only were blacks involved but so critically were white liberals. These same liberals were also instrumental in the movement towards creating a multicultural america. However, their actions are not extraordinary in the context of most other developed countries in the western world which have also adopted post-war multicultural policies after centuries of white racist policies.
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@Kiwi
I think the status quo itself was ready to change because of long-term trends common to all western liberal democratic nation-states that started moving away from ethnocentric, group/race-based thinking after the horrors of the 20th century world wars. The post-war period led to an atmosphere of cosmopolitanism, liberalism, social change. Of course conservatives everywhere try to slow this change down (with short-term reversals even) but the trend is clear. The US is exceptional among all western countries (south africa another exception) because of the continued existence of a fairly large regional white conservative southern population, which makes the US so much more conservative than other western countries and makes white privilege more ingrained and hard to change. However, due to demographic change (whites are already a minority among young people, and will become an absolute minority within a generation) and progression of liberal attitudes among the majority population, this privilege becomes less and less useful (some would say at times negligible), and is one of just many other competing privileges such as gender, sexual orientation, social class, citizenship, linguistic, and even discriminatory factors such as height, age, weight, intellectual proclivity, regional background, etc. Organized activism serves mostly to ensure that laws and other policies keep up with these underlying changes and not lag beyond, since there is usually a gap between changes in attitude and social practices among the majority and changes in government policy and legislation.
I agree that we should organize to speed up these changes (also agree that asian-americans are not politically active enough), but I’m not cynical enough to say that ‘white people’ would never give up their privileges on their own, they in fact have been doing so worldwide for several generations and will continue to at least for the foreseeable future. Any kind of ‘privilege’ rests on us not seeing one another as individuals but as members of a category, so as western liberalism progresses white (and any other kind of) privilege is naturally reduced. A post-racial society first begins, not when race doesn’t matter anymore, but when race matters relatively less compared to other differences that we identify between people.
Just as whiteness continues to mean less and less, i.e. confer less advantage, so being a so-called ‘honorary white’ loses it’s value. What this model doesn’t discuss is that an asian-american could have the advantage of being able to derive benefits both their ‘honorary white’ status, and from an ‘asian’ status, either at the same moment, or dynamically at different times and places with different people. Supposedly the model derives from latin america society, but actually being east asian, say chinese or japanese, is a huge privilege throughout most of latin america, not due to whiteness, but because most people have very positive impressions and interest in asian people. ‘Chino’ is a term of endearment completely unlike ‘chinaman’ in the US. Peru had a fully ethnic japanese president, Fujimori, for many years, and his ethnicity was of little or no barrier. Peru is a multiethnic country, in what sense was Fujimori white? I don’t think the author of this three-race model has an understanding of what is like to be asian in latin america.
The real alarming trend is that of the rich/poor gap which is getting worse, it’s not about the 1% anymore, since even most of that 1% hardly have any wealth and power. The top 0.1% and even fraction of that have taken over most of the wealth and power. The emerging global elite are made up of all races and ethnicities, and have more in common with each other than those of a particular race or ethnicity.
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Also, the blog post posits Michelle Malkin is posited as BOTH an honorary white, and as a house negro. Doesn’t that imply that ‘house negro blacks’ can be honorary whites, and isn’t this a large segment of the black population? I don’t see even blacks listed as a subgroup ‘honorary white’ at all, probably because this would render the three-race model somewhat meaningless. The post says a black person needs to be both light-skinned and married to a white person to be an honorary white, but to be a house negro doesn’t require such strict qualifications. I think this model uses ‘honorary white’ as a euphemism for ‘good blacks’ (versus collective blacks as ‘bad blacks’) to perpetuate what is really a two-race model. Why not abandon such a rigid construct and see america as evolving towards something more akin to a complex ‘web’ of racial identity, where the meanings and powers of each ethnic/racial group are not solely derived from ‘white people’ but from a totality of influences both domestic and global? Whites, as a minority, will not have ‘more power than ever’. The general latin experience is based on a majority racially-mixed population (brazil and argentina being white-majority nations are not reflective of the general latin american case), and is something the US can look forward to with optimism.
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@Linda
“So No, black Americans are Not imagining things… so let’s be real
“it’s not about “black American achievement…but you chose to make it about black Americans –why? I don’t know”
There’s a difference between being a victim and having a victim mentality. And you brought up black american achievement, not me. I only pointed out that seeing the future of race as a three-race (but really two-race) hierarchy – where everyone can be white except for blacks – is a mental construct built on a permanent victim mentality. The fact is many blacks have already been so-called honorary whites for a long time, yet this model which purports to describe the future rigidly leaves blacks out of the honorary white category. Non-whites face discrimination in the america, but this is too often overplayed and used to blame others rather than look within for solutions. You see polls which say that 75% of african-americans have experienced discrimination (the majority say mild) in their lives. That’s an implicit bias in reporting right there, you could turn that around and say 25% of blacks have never experienced any discrimination in their lives. Statistics are often interpreted with a bias to find victimhood and unfairness.
For example, reading that article you posted about a bamboo ceiling in education and the workplace. It claims that asian-americans are systematically kept out of the highest levels of management, as evidenced, for example, by the fact that they make up 5% of the population but only 1.8% of Fortune 500 CEOs. Among closer examination, all of these Fortune 500 CEOs are asians that grew up with an english-language education, most of them south asian since Indian elites usually receive english-language educations. South asians only comprise 1% of the population, so you could say that they (that is, english-speaking asians) are actually over-represented at the highest level of management (of course the candidate selection pool is not limited to america, but we are looking at the overall effect). Why no east asians? Perhaps language discrimination is the main factor, not racial discrimination – otherwise why not discrimination against south asians? The median age of a Fortune 500 CEO is 55. This means for an east-asian in their 50s to be a native english speaker, they would need to have graduated from college in america in the early 80s, and therefore have immigrated to the US in the 1970s. There are perhaps just over a million members of this group, or under 0.3% of the US population. On average, we would expect to see just one east-asian CEO of a Fortune 500 company. There being one less than this isn’t a strong data point (I believe Jerry Yang was CEO of Yahoo when it was still a Fortune 500 company, however, he founded the company so probably doesn’t really count). Senior management in other fields may not require 30 years of working career, but you would still expect a 10-20+ year lag between graduation and high-level career positions, most people would need to be in their 40s. Not to say there isn’t discrimination against asian-americans, but that it shouldn’t be overstated and lead to self-limiting beliefs.
Linda says, “hence Asians not being accepted into colleges because the colleges want white students to stay the majority… this is not about being a “victim”, it’s discussing reality”
Let’s put discrimination against asian-americans in higher education into perspective. Elite colleges (Ivies, Stanford, MIT) accept about 20,000 freshman students annually. Assuming that the rate of asian-american admissions were to increase from 20% to 50% if admissions were color-blind, then we could say that 6000 asian-american students each year are affected by ‘white racism’. Less than a quarter, or 1500, of these affected students lose a chance to attend the very top schools (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT), which could be really life-changing. The rest will still attend top schools, either other Ivies, or other top colleges, and the potential loss is less clear. So racial discrimination by whites in the US educational system really impacts a couple thousand students each year. Tragic, yes. But the oft-quoted claim that top schools could fill their entering classes twice over with students with perfect SAT scores is a fallacy. Only 300 students out of 1.8 million each year have perfect SAT scores, while less than 6000 have near-perfect scores of 2300/2400 or higher. Harvard couldn’t fill more than 15% of its freshman class with perfect test-takers. Most of the truly gifted asian-american students (supposed future leaders, movers and shakers, geniuses) will still get in.
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I should also add that there is a natural countervailing force at work. Knowing there is an anti-asian bias in elite education, employers would have a bias towards assuming that any asian, particularly an asian-american male, with a degree from an elite university is even more talented than the average graduate. The ivy league degree is worth more in the hands of an asian-american. A similar but opposite effect occurs under affirmative action where black (and maybe latino) degree holders have their degrees devalued, as there is a perception that they may have got in despite lower academic or other achievement.
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@Linda
Of the three Jamaican-American leaders you mentioned, both Colin Powell and Susan Rice appear to have chinese ancestry, based on appearance (look at the eyes – you can see this in another african-american, Condoleeza Rice, also). It seems there was significant mixing between chinese immigrants and africans in jamaica, but I can’t find any good genealogical records.
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@Linda
“but Asians do face a “ceiling” just like every other minority group and for you to deny it, means you are choosing to be willfully ignorant of this fact”
The NYmag article you link to supports this argument by noting that “according to a recent study, Asian-Americans represent roughly 5 percent of the population but only 0.3 percent of corporate officers, less than 1 percent of corporate board members, and around 2 percent of college presidents.” Since he doesn’t provide any sources, I’ll provide more specific data and address the claim about corporate board members (since corporate officers is just a subset of the CEO phenomena I addressed earlier, they are just 10-15 years younger. The average age of college presidents is even older, at 61 years). The raw numbers are here:
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/diversity_among_ceos.html
The study looks at corporate board diversity among the most powerful economic sectors of the nation, including the Fortune 500 companies and key business policy roundtables. The data is based on nearly 5000 board directors. It shows that 6.8% of the most powerful board directors in the country are african-american. However, this number is greatly skewed by the lower numbers of african-women (1.5%) compared to men (5.3%). African-american men are only slightly under-represented relative to their population size (6.8%). Male privilege would seem to greatly trump racial privilege. While only 2.4% of the board directors were asian-american, again the numbers are skewed because 2% of the directors are asian-american men, while 0.4% are asian women. This goes against a previous claim in this thread that asian-american women, rather than men, are more easily accepted by whites both in the dating scene and the broader socializing activities necessary for career success. 2% (versus asian-american males at 2.7% of the population) is hardly a smoking gun for under-representation once you consider the average age of board directors and the fact that 60-70% of asian-americans are foreign-born and may have linguistic disadvantage and simply haven’t had the time to assimilate into american culture, build up social capital, etc. Exceptional foreign-born asians have made it into these upper-levels of power, but they have to be truly exceptional. Among the policy-planning boards, asian-american males (no asian females there) are actually over-represented, comprising between 3.1% to 5.1% of total board members. This shows asian-americans asserting power in the political-economic arena, going against the apolitical stereotype.
Data which purports to show a bamboo ceiling actually show a gender-based ‘glass ceiling’. Asian-american immigration has only dramatically accelerated in the last 10-15 years, let’s give them some time, rather than spread defeatist and victimist myths such as a bamboo ceiling which is not as solid as some of its backers would claim.
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@Kiwi
“Most Asians discriminated against are not “leaders, movers and shakers, geniuses”. Most Asian Americans affected are ordinary people with families trying to get by, like the rest of us.”
I’m just observing that it’s the top 5-10% percentile range of asian-americans, not the top 5%, or bottom 90%, that are really affected by higher education quotas. The workplace ceiling and pay gaps I think can be mostly explained by the factor of being ‘foreign born’ and will go away over time. Unquestionably, there is racial prejudice and stereotypes, but I think the major effect of racism is that instead of american culture changing to adapt to and learn from new, asian cultural norms, asians are forced to act ‘more white’ in order to succeed.
“This is not true. In my experience, whites tend to assume that Asians benefit from affirmative action, just as blacks and Hispanics do”
Point taken. I guess not everybody is aware of asian-american issues. I think in places like silicon valley, or more STEM-oriented fields, hiring staff would be more aware. I still think it’s an open question, I haven’t heard of a widespread perception that east-asians (southeast asians, yes) benefit from affirmative action in higher-education, at least not among educated people.
“Latinos, Natives, and Southeast Asians are also listed under “collective black”
If southeast asians are categorized as ‘collective black’ merely because of their socioeconomic status at the time that americans were forming a perception of them (I question whether most white americans can actually tell the difference between many east asians and southeast asians though, particularly Thai and northern Vietnamese), then these stereotypes are subject to change as southeast asians move up the economic ladder, as they are doing (e.g. Vietnamese, Thai, Filipino). I can see racism based on dark skin color, but nowhere near what african-americans face. I’ve yet to see a convincing argument that southeast asians and blacks should be placed at the same level in a racial hierarchy. People may stereotype blacks, native americans, and southeast asians, but all differently.
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@Kiwi
“Pointing out that white professionals are more successful than equivalent Asian professionals is “defeatist” and “victimist”. Great analysis.”
It is when the claims go beyond reality. It is fine to note a pay gap, but one should be careful in analyzing the reasons. It’s fine to note asian-americans face certain challenges, for whatever reasons, in reaching higher management, but one shouldn’t use incorrect data to exaggerate the barriers, thereby creating unnecessary self-doubt and limiting beliefs in aspiring achievers.
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sorry, that should be ‘incorrectly use data’, not ‘incorrect data’
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@Kiwi
“Money is not the only form of success, nor does having money translate to dating success.”
I totally agree about money, but the discussion was about the bamboo ceiling. I think self-confidence is the first key to success, both in leadership and in dating. Studies have shown that men wildly overestimate their chances with women, but that actually this over-confidence is a kind of evolutionary success trait for dating success. That’s why I want to call out myths/narratives that undermine self-confidence.
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@ Bran
1. The three-race model in the post is a prediction by sociologist Eduardo Bonilla-Silva. It is not based on what he hopes for or thinks is right. It is based on which way the US seems to be headed based on data on income, interracial marriage, housing segregation and racial attitudes. He personally thinks it sucks and offers it as a warning: this is what will likely happen if we do nothing new.
2. If 6,000 is not such a big deal for Asians then it should not be such a big deal for Whites either. So, then, why be racist? What is the excuse?
3. You have the whole victimhood thing backwards. Racism is real. Those who do not see it have no way to protect themselves against it. They become victims of internalized racism.
4. Your corporate board comment: Wow, talk about twisting statistics! If discrimination was mainly against women rather than Asians or Blacks, as you claim, then there should be twice as many Asian and Black men than there are. Instead the numbers show both racism and sexism. Which fits in with what goes on elsewhere in the US.
Why are you being such an apologist for a racist status quo?
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@ Kiwi
“East Asians, such as Chinese, are mostly a recent brain drain. However, they do not look white, so they can only be “honorary whites” at best.”
I think at some point Latinos and (East and South East) Asians will look white to Americans. Just as Eastern and Southern Europeans now look white, even though they phenotypical appearance hasn’t changed.
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@ Kartoffel
And what about the South Asians? If not, then why not?
And what kind of Latinos do you mean?
(Like Gina Torres — http://www.ssdress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/gina-torres—the-vampire-diaries-wiki—episode-guide-cast-xjdmiblh.jpg ?)
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@abagond
1. I’m aware his model is a prediction, apparently based on his reading of latin america. I think it’s overly rigid and doesn’t account for the diversity of ethnic group experiences.
2. Six thousand more asians and six thousand less whites in elite colleges don’t make a big difference to the overall white community, but they WOULD make a big difference to the small group of colleges that don’t want their demographics disrupted so suddenly.
3. I never said racism isn’t real. You can be a victim of racism but not internalize a victimhood mentality.
4. How am I twisting statistics? Women are far more under-represented on those corporate boards (13.3% versus 50% of the population) than either asian men (2% versus 2.7% population in fortune 500) or black men (5.3% on boards versus 6.8% of population), who are both only moderately under-represented. Asian men are actually over-represented 3.1%-5.1% versus 2.7% population on policy institution boards. This isn’t to say there aren’t barriers because we could say that perhaps asian-american men should perhaps be over-represented by a factor of 10x and be on 27% of those boards, if there was no barrier. But the data as it was used in the article in itself doesn’t support that.
Where have I apologized for racism? Or condoned it in any way?
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@ Bran
I know Linda will respond to you thoroughly, but I wanted to point something out to you.
Linda said “but you chose to make it about black Americans –why? I don’t know”
You said “And you brought up black american achievement, not me.”
If you notice she said you chose to make it about black Americans not “black American achievements” and if I am not mistaken you were already talking about black Americans when she chimed in.
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Abagond @ Bran,
Why are you being such an apologist for a racist status quo?
Linda says,
because he is either really white or he is a Asian race realist (do they even exist) — every one of his arguments has been said before and of course, his love of statistics is dead-giveaway (plus his continual use of the words “victim”)
If you peruse the old posts on this argument, you will see many of the same “reasons” that Bran gives, already stated by past white race realist – from Randy on down
Also, race realists like to hold Asians up as the “model minorities” because the other model minorities goes against the grain of their racists arguments.
and if Bran really is Asian, then he must have just got off the boat and is brand spanking new to the USA because his arguments seem pretty naive ie “Asians will be accepted in time”
Bran, Asians have been here since the 1800s, how much more time do they need?!
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Thank you Sharina, your reply is more than sufficient 🙂
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Abagond, Silva misses the point , or sluffs over the fact that, the diologue about racism and the nuances of racism is confronted and disscussed much more in America than in his native Brazil , and Brazil has way more Ferguson incidents than the USA …but I notice, passing through the USA now , that on the media , inspite of all its hyperbol , the dynamics of racism are disected and gone into with much more detail than Brazil
As well as , since I have direct comparison right now , black Americans are much more represented in the media and politicly than Brazil ,even with the many flaws that have been disscussed on here about media, which I agree… and , black Americans, are seen traveling and staying in good hotels in far greater numbers in comparison
I dont beleive the USA will sink backwards like Brazil , in those aspects , I beleive Brazil will raise its standards about racism issues
This makes many of his assumtions off
This thing about accepting differant minorities as whiter…I dont see that as as valid as a cultural bias…and ignorance…if you act culturaly like white people , you have a better chance of being accepted in one system of America, but , always has the posibility of the racist system , to raise its ugly head
There are lots of examples of very dark black Americans doing very well in the one system , but , getting clipped by the racist system
But , there are also examples of black Americans , who arnt trying to fit into white cultural standards, open their own markets , and go very far….
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Also, Bran
you do notice that “Multi-Racial” people are listed in the White and also the Honorary White category….the multi-racial category contains people that the USA considers to be “black”
These black people are often times light-skinned or “mixed race”, they are/will also be placed into these categories according to Bonilla-Silva…. that’s what Multi-racial stands for.
(you might not know that, since you seem to be new to the USA, so I just wanted to point that out, since you keep asking “where the black people are” in reference to the Honorary White category — they are already there under “ most Multi-racials“)
that’s why this chart is being compared to Latin America because generally in Latin America, many mixed-race people are recognized as “mixed, multi-racial” people ie trigueno, mulatto, moreno, mestizo
and no, Colin Powell is not mixed with Chinese. He comes from a multi-generational mixed-race African/European family (mainly Scottish/British) in Jamaica. His family belongs to Jamaica’s “Brown” class of people. (Susan Rice mother is Jamaican of brown parents).
Jamaica does have a lot of mixed Chinese/black people but what does that have to do with success in the USA? are you trying to attribute any success they might have to their Asian blood versus their African?
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@ Linda
Thanks. By the way, there are Asian race realists.
@ Bran
If you want to know if Black or Asian men are discriminated against, then you need to compare them to White men. That way you cut out the effects of sexism.
You are an apologist for the racist status quo because you make excuses for racist university admissions that – maintain the racist status quo. You also bend over backwards NOT to see racism, as in your number twisting.
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@Linda,
I was a bit busy the past few days and did not have time to reply to some of Bran’s earlier meanderings, and I still might but your statement
must be true. As you mentioned, there are dead giveaways. He argues just like a white race realist, I am just trying figure which one he is representing. I think I know.
He did some things that an Asian American would never do, even a white-washed one from a lily-white suburbs. His awareness of US history and interpretation of blacks and Asians is exactly like that of white Americans. A recent immigrant would not have taken that take on it. Nor would a transracial adoptee. He hasn’t experienced being an Asian in America.
I think if he were arguing under his true identity, he is afraid that he will be shot down. By pretending to be someone else, his arguments might be entertained, however briefly.
I’m not going to waste time on it.
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@ Bulanik
I don’t know if or when Whiteness is enlarged to South Asians, but I’m sure it’s not at the same moment if and when it happens to East and South East Asians, becuase they are commonly perceived as something completly differtent by white Americans.
I think every Latino who doesn’t look black or asian to white Americans will eventually become white.
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@Sharina
Actually, Linda did “it’s not about “black American achievement”.
@Linda
It seems that you’re not really here to open-mindedly discuss racism, but to just look for support for your existing world-view.
First, instead of rationally discussing tangible points, you make unfounded personal attacks on me (liar, white, naive, fresh off the boat, racist (race realist = scientific racist, or belief in biological superiority of one race over another)), bordering on the absurd (really, only white people bring up hard numbers and statistics? that seems really racist against black people. so they avoid numbers or something and like to argue in generalities?).
Second, you use a straw man argument by saying that other people have made similar arguments therefore they cannot be true rather than addressing what I say. Please don’t put other people’s words in my mouth, and I have looked through other posts and threads and I have brought up points that were never brought up before. About ‘model minorities’, you’re confusing causation and effect. Just because ‘race realists’ abuse the concept does not mean the concept arose simply because whites want to attack blacks. Many countries such as Canada, New Zealand, and Australia with negligible black populations also have a concept of model minorities.
I might measure our respective degrees of concern for racism by the amount of time and effort made in researching the issues and posting to this thread, not by knee-jerk adherence to dogma.
Asians have been in the US since the 1800s, but change isn’t linear. The world before and after, say, 1970 are radically different. Things are radically changing again now. You don’t think 60 years was a long time ago? Personal computers didn’t even exist back then. Change happens in generations (30 year periods) as people grow up with no personal memories of the time before. 60 years in the future is the year 2074. Do you think what any of us think or believe now have much bearing on the year 2074? Nobody even dares make predictions about that time (talk of, however, Technological Singularity). Except to say it won’t be recognizable.
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Bran @Linda
It seems that you’re not really here to open-mindedly discuss racism, but to just look for support for your existing world-view.
Linda says,
if you think that you are open-mindedly discussing racism, then your are being disingenous, and by making the above statement, you used a typical race realist “stance” when someone calls them out or questions them.
I’m not “attacking” you and I never called you a “liar”… it’s called making an observation, because that is how you appear to (doesn’t mean I’m right). Since when is being called white or an Asian race realist an attack.
You do use race-realist verbage and rhetoric…most race realist use statistics to back up their views on race and ask others to “prove them wrong”, that is what you are doing
I really do want to believe that you are genuine but past experience and longevity on this blog indicates otherwise, and makes it hard to take you seriously.
_____________________________________________________
and no, you really haven’t brought up any points that have not been brought up before.
The topic of Asian immigrant success in the USA on this blog, has run a 360 degree cycle, 5x times over, with the same issues/factors you have brought to the table being repeated on a loop. (Abagond has an extensive library of topics)
your statement about Asian success being linked to speaking English:
“In general higher IQ people tend to have higher income. So why do Filipinos have higher income than Koreans in the US. Easy virtually ALL Filipinos speak fluent English. Many Koreans if they speak English is poor and not employable in White America. Same for East Indians – low IQ BUT fluent in English.”
you can pick almost any of Abagonds post that discuss Asians and you will find almost all of your statements, Bran.
I’m not “putting words in your mouth” — I’m just saying your arguments are not unique to this blog… we’ve all been down this path before… you are just the latest player in this soap opera.
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“Bran,
Asians have been in the US since the 1800s, but change isn’t linear. The world before and after, say, 1970 are radically different. Things are radically changing again now. You don’t think 60 years was a long time ago? Personal computers didn’t even exist back then. Change happens in generations (30 year periods) as people grow up with no personal memories of the time before. 60 years in the future is the year 2074. Do you think what any of us think or believe now have much bearing on the year 2074?”
Linda says,
Bran, some things change, while others stay the same.
True, nothing happens in a linear line — life and societies move in cycles, (just like fashion) mainly because people forget and the same sh’t happens all over again.
some cultures make it a point to remember the past so that the past can be re-addressed in the future
and some societies fight hard to keep certain privileges in place because they want certain aspects of their society to remain the same — technology is tool, not a religion or a tradition.
Do you see China moving to a greater “individualistic based” society in 60 years from now? Do you really think the hierarchy will change due to time or influence from the West?
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Jefe @ I’m not going to waste time on it.
I don’t blame you — I’m sure you are fatigued at this point
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@Linda
Since you say you remember the 1960s, maybe the point would be better illustrated for you by looking a further 60 years before that. In 1904, the first mass production automobile hadn’t been invented, there was no color photography, no vacuum tube amplifiers, no television, no air conditioning, no theory of relativity. Radios and airplanes were just being invented, and telephones had just become available to the mass consumer.
Sixty years is a long time. And most observers agree that change is actually speeding up.
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You are talking about technology Bran.. I agree with you there, technology does change and can alter the future –I do remember life before microwaves and a lot of other things.
but this discussion is about US sociology — how people/race/ethnicity are affected by power structures, privilege and other factors. The changes or non-changes that occur are not on par with changes with technology
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@Linda
“and no, you really haven’t brought up any points that have not been brought up before.”
So you’ve heard, for example, the argument that the Immigration Act of 1965 wasn’t directly linked to the civil rights movement? Because you said that asian-americans owe their existence in the country due to black people pushing for civil rights. And I bet a lot of high school textbooks have bought into this unexamined assumption as well – high school textbooks tend to like to buy into simplistic triumphalist narratives, whether by whites, or blacks. Mainly by whites of course.
“Since when is being called white or an Asian race realist an attack.”
As I understand, a ‘race realist’ is a term invented by white supremacists to identify someone who recognizes that races exist in a biological sense, and that some races are superior to others, therefore separation of the races is necessary to prevent genetic mixing. Similar terms include ‘scientific racist’ or ‘human biodiversity’. Their biggest current fear is ‘white genocide’. An ‘asian race realist’ would probably refer to an ‘asian race supremacist’. Does that count as an attack? Depends on the context I guess, in the context of this thread likely so. I can say I’ve written a long post debunking the concept of white genocide as a fallacy. I think whether races exist at a biological level depend on one’s definition of race. Calling someone white is at least a form of labeling, and possibly an attack, as if one’s thoughts are limited by one’s race, and in the context of this thread surely means that someone has internalized racism and cannot be post-racial through hard work and experience but only through misguided privilege.
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@ Bran
I see. It appears she did say that, so I decided to take the time to see fully what that was in response to. Based on your own comments you basically brought in black achievements or lack of. Comparing them to Asian Americans etc. You seem bright so I am sure you are fully aware of what you are doing even if you are attempting to be willfully obtuse.
*shrugs*
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I remember when Obama was elected, many black people were saying they ‘would never have believed’ this was possible in their lifetime. Particular older black folks who were around in the civil rights movement. If this sentiment was widepread, it would indicate a) that they had a widepread limiting belief that wrong in the first place, and/or b) socioeconomic change really has happened more quickly and dramatically relative to expectations
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lots of typos..getting tired *sigh*
“particularly older black folks…”
“…belief that was wrong…”
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Linda
“Thank you Sharina, your reply is more than sufficient”—You’re welcome. Though I do believe I made a mistake. 🙂
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@Sharina
“…obtuse..”
Is everyone around here completely cynical and pessimistic, or is it just me? Or does thinking about race issues too much lead to this.
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Bran
Keywords. Older Black people. More than likely they saw or experienced many things that gave them that idea.
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Bran
“Is everyone around here completely cynical and pessimistic, or is it just me? Or does thinking about race issues too much lead to this.”—Actually I spend more time thinking about sex, but that is besides the point. You have made a few statements that indicate as such. If I wanted to be extremely rude I could think of much worse things to say. Though I generally reserve judgement until I observe more of the said individual.
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“Bran,
So you’ve heard, for example, the argument that the Immigration Act of 1965 wasn’t directly linked to the civil rights movement? Because you said that asian-americans owe their existence in the country due to black people pushing for civil rights.”
Linda says,
speaking of obtuse — I said that Asian-Americans benefited from the Civil Rights movement also because they also benefited from affirmative action and other gains that were made and spear-headed by black Americans.
you may not realize it (being that you are new to America) but Chinese and other Asian people were discriminated against in the USA.
They faced many restrictions, just like black, Latino and other people in the USA (why do you think the Lebanese and Syrians fought to be designated as “white” in the US).
So yes, the Civil Rights movement DID benefit Asians-because it lead to them gaining more civil rights in America.
You and I NEVER discussed the Immigration Act of 1965, that was you and Kiwi
______________________________________________
and also, once again, you are not the first to bring up the topic of the Immigration Act of 1965 and it’s relation to the Civil Rights movement:
like I said, wish I could say you are original but you have brought up another issue that’s been discussed on this blog already but not in “ad nauseam” as the other issues concerning Asians.
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@Linda,
Yep, that whole thing about Asian American success in the USA depending on fluency in English and East Asians having higher IQ than SE Asians, blah blah blah is not something an Asian American would do. They would know better.
The amnesia about Asian American civil rights and its relationship to the Black Civil rights movement and the Teflon view of history — it seems that you understand a lot more about the history US race relations and its relationship to the present than he does and you didn’t grow up in the USA either.
Add to that all the carefully skewed statistics. And imagining one is being attacked when one isn’t at all.
And he is not new to the USA.
We are looking at a “white” race realist who imagines they know a little bit about Asia or Asian America either because they have been to Asia before or because they are married to an Asian woman, likely someone of East Asian descent (hence all that “IQ” stuff).
Then the mark of being “willfully obtuse”. We used “deliberately obtuse” before to discuss the nature of someone’s comments. 😛
I bet, he feels that even the sentences above are personal attacks, when they aren’t.
I was going to respond to a couple comments earlier up (as he got a few things simply wrong), but the more I think about it, why bother?
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Jefe,I was going to respond to a couple comments earlier up (as he got a few things simply wrong), but the more I think about it, why bother?
Linda says,
Jefe, it’s a slippery slope because initially, I want to take people at their words. I actually like when we have different people with varying views and Bran would have been interesting to talk.
I kind of understood where he was coming from when he said this:
But then I got turned off when he kept saying black people in America had a “victim” attitude and starting hyping up Asians as “the best”
wow, harder than everyone – I don’t think so! Other immigrant groups do the same thing Asians do- work and study hard, save and invest their money. African immigrants come to the US to study in STEM programs as well.
I started to question his authenticity when he said this,
Seemed odd to say it like that since he was talking to other Asian descended people (you, Kiwi, and Leigh)– when people are amongst their own, they tend to start to break themselves down by other things besides Nationality ie “what region their from or ethnic background”
I would have thought that he would have mentioned his province of origination, or at least which Chinese language he spoke ex Mandarin or Cantonese, Hakka, etc
And what made me think he was white –his take on people not looking at the past, just the future:
This statement just seemed so “un-Chinese” – he is talking about “individuality” and “free-will”. That statement just seemed so “white American”.
Correct me if I’m wrong, Jefe, but isn’t relationship/ collective identity more import in China than someone’s “individuality”?
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@Linda,
There are many odd things, it would take me all day to list all of them.
and Yep, if someone is from China, they would likely share where they are from, what language they speak, etc. If they assumed very un-Chinese points of view, they would not simultaneously try to reaffirm they are Chinese.
He also made many perpetual foreigner errors. Those are usually committed by either whites or by newer immigrants. But his interpretation of US history is the white version (not the Asian American or the Chinese version), as well as his teflon theory of history. He also uses White race realist viewpoints (not even the Asian ones).
So, he is either a white American race realist or if he is indeed Chinese-born then he has replaced his mindset with a white American race realist version.
His comment that Asians will be accepted in the USA over time is altogether odd, unless I heard it from a white person.
There are many other odd things, it would take a while to list them all.
You really suggest that I address some of the earlier comments?
Also, there are some slip-ups that he did that revealed which his identity likely is.
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I think East Asians could become part of the “in-group”. Perhaps the word “white” is dropped and replaced with something else. When South Europeans were accepted in the “in-group” nobody started to call them Anglos. It just stopped to matter that they weren’t.
I don’t think stereotypes have to completly disappear before you can be part of the “in-group”. There are still stereotypes about Italians or Irish, but they don’t matter anymore to their life chances.
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Jefe @ Linda “You really suggest that I address some of the earlier comments?”
No, Jefe, leave it alone. I’m sure if you had felt the need earlier, you would have done so.
I just felt like sharing. I was also not going to get involved, but like I said, his continual comments about black people being “victims” irked me.
I’m tired of people like Bran, who probably personally know 0 to 2 black people, who think they can stereotype a group based on media soundbites and Internet news.
The parents of my black American friends were all hard working and didn’t take hand-outs either. These people were some of the warriors who stood up during the 60s. They came from states like Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi — I have much respect for them.
I have a friend whose father has worked for the same utility company in lower management for 50 years (he just retired)–house paid off, sent all his kids to college, vacations every year, as graduation gift, gave all the kids down-payments to buy a house or do whatever.
How come these black people don’t make the National news or are showcased by the American Republican party?
I’m tired of these supposed white or other “high achievers” holding up the black poor as the only representatives of the black American community.
but I understand, talking about dysfunction and crime, is more interesting
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@ Kiwi
Phenotypically the Irish blend in with WASPs, but South and East Europeans don’t. I can’t make all of them among Central Europeans, but still most. Besides the phisical appearance the most important indicator of your group is your name. Some immigrants have changed their surnames to an Anglo version, but many haven’t, so they never blended in with the WASPs.
I completly agree that Asians can only get the honorary white Status NOW. But I think it’s a possibility (not a certainty) that that changes.
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I am going to have to disagree with Kartoffel too. Actually completely 1000% disagree with him.
WASP in the USA has expanded to include people of Eastern and Southern European descent as well as surnames that reflect Eastern and Southern European origin.
the polish-American character Walt Kowalski in Gran Turino is portrayed as an Anglo-American. In fact, he is THE “American” character in the movie. WASP has been expanded to include Polish-American, Italian American and all Slavic surnames.
This was certainly NOT the case 100 years ago. Many decided to change their names then to sound more Anglo, eg,
Kirk Douglas (born Issur Danielovitch)
William Shatner (paternal grandfather born Wolf Schattner)
Lauren Bacall (born Betty Joan Perske)
Martha Stewart (born Martha Helen Kostyra)
etc.
etc.
etc,
But, nowadays, European sounding surnames are not perceived as being foreign. Al Pacino does not have a foreign sounding name to modern American ears. But Wong and Korematsu have been in the USA since the mid19th century, yet are still perceived as being foreign.
Many Chinese 100-150 years ago did spell their surnames to make them look more Anglo. But it did not change them being perceived as being foreign (only made whites more comfortable in pronouncing their names).
Examples:
Lowe (Lo, Luo)
Young (Yeung, Yeong, Yang)
Joe (Chow, Chau, Zhou)
Louie (Lui, Lu)
Tom (Tam, Tan)
Locke (Lok) — Recall Gary Locke.
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@Linda
Let me clarify about a ‘victim mentality’. I’m not saying that all blacks in america have a victim mentality, or are not hard-working, or blame their problems on the system. I’m saying that there is a TRADITION of that thinking that you can see, not only among certain black leaders and segments of the black community, but also among white liberals and yes among asian-americans. My interest is in helping to solve the problem, by first diagnosing the causes. I believe racism has a role, but that the traditional historical narrative is too monolithic in its approach.
Have you read the essay ‘Black Rednecks and White Liberals’ by Thomas Sowell? In it, he argues that today’s dysfunctional black ghetto culture was derived from early southern redneck white culture which itself came from a specific region of north england/scotland (where the terms redneck, hillbilly, cracker come from). While this culture has since evolved in other places, strong elements were maintained in black culture due to de facto segregation. He contrasts this strongly with the historical northern black culture, and immigrant black culture from the West Indies. Many high-achieving black individuals came from these two cultures, despite the fact there was also slavery in the Caribbean (for him, evidence that slavery is not a primary factor in present-day black problems, but rather elements of the nature of the black community). He also observes that a hundred years ago, northern black IQ scores were higher than white southern IQ scores (suggesting that black/white IQ gaps are not biological but again, culturally-based), and that blacks made more socioeconomic improvements in the decades before the achieving full civil rights equality than in the decades after (suggesting to him that it is not external racism, but other factors that are instrumental in black success). It would require a lot more research to explore this thesis further, but it’s an interesting proposition. Anyways, the essay represents a ‘cultural’ approach to the solution, rather than a ‘victim’ approach.
I’m not stereotyping anyone, I’m making observations from data and a wide variety of sources, certainly not the mainstream media or individual black people I happen to know (in fact I have family members who are black and very successful, though I think this is completely irrelevant to the issues here).
@Jefe, Kiwi, Linda
“Seemed odd to say it like that since he was talking to other Asian descended people ”
“they would not simultaneously try to reaffirm they are Chinese”
When I first posted to this thread, everyone immediately accused me of being white. I had no idea what background anybody else was. I actually think it’s refreshing not to know, so the discussion could be color-blind and matters judged based on the content of the postings. I regret revealing I’m chinese in the first place (I actually mentioned it completely by accident because I thought that the term ‘east asian’ was too broad and wanted to keep my statements more precise), and only elaborated once questioned in the hopes the discussion could veer away from personal labels. If I thought it was relevant I would say more about my specific background, but at this point I feel it would be used against me.
Why the need for labeling? Or should I say stereotyping.
Interesting that you would think I have a ‘white mindset’ though. Perhaps the ‘white mindset’ is more post-racial than you think.
@Kartoffel
“I think East Asians could become part of the “in-group”. Perhaps the word “white” is dropped and replaced with something else.”
Interesting suggestion, I agree with you here. East asians wouldn’t necessarily have to give up their identity. I think this is the case in much of latin america.
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“But his interpretation of US history is the white version (not the Asian American or the Chinese version)”
History is written by the victors, so I think everyone’s information is influenced to some degree by the ‘white version’. That said, I’ve never bought into mainstream narratives, which I find ethnocentric and teleological. I actually believe history can be approached objectively, and not merely from the subjective viewpoint of a particular class of people. I found Howard Zinn exciting as a kid, but upon re-reading find he’s bought way too much into the subjectivist view of history and writes with too much bias. The chinese version of US history is a pretty narrow slice of the picture, am I supposed to ‘interpret’ US history ‘as a chinese’? I think it’s enough to try to be aware of it, then draw lessons. Again, whites have dominated the narrative for so long, new information is still coming out. For example, an interesting book ‘Driven Out: The Forgotten War Against Chinese Americans’ was just published 6 years ago. I suggest reading books like these, not to establish a ‘chinese version of US history’, but to formulate individual understandings and fact-based interpretations.
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@ Kiwi and Jefe
I think you missed my point. I brought the names up, because they show that Southern and Eastern Europeans were accepted into white America, even though they were recognizable. It was directed against Kiwi’s argument that whiteness couldn’t be enlarged onto Asians, because they don’t blend in with whites. That a name like Luciano is now seen as “regular American”, even though it hasn’t been before WW2, is exactly the point. I think it’s a possibility that that might happen with Asian names (and faces) as well.
I don’t think the enlargements of whiteness are something that just happens over time. It is a specific effort by whites to remain in control. So that an enlargment onto Asians hasn’t happened in the past, even though they have been in America for centuries, doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen in the future.
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By the way, regarding ‘white’ versus ‘chinese’ interpretation of history, it was Joseph Needham who made some of the greatest contributions to everybody’s understanding of china’s role in world history, through objective discoveries about china’s forgotten technological and scientific past. White racists typically cite the rise of Europe as evidence of the superiority of the western mind, its unique propensity for abstract rational thought, and accomplishment in developing modern science and industry. However, Europe came out of the middle ages into the modern era because of key enabling technologies that were imported from the chinese. For example, agricultural surpluses that were necessary for urbanization – and therefore an urban class who could conduct science and create the industrial revolution – were dependent on a massive revolution in agriculture brought about by such chinese technologies as the moldboard plow and collar harness. The renaissance was dependent on movable type printing, which china had invented a few hundred years before. Gunpowder and the compass, crucial to european expansion, also came from china. Even today, western scholars are often vague on where these technologies came from, or sometimes in denial or unclear about the mechanism of technological diffusion. However, the possibilities of global historical narrative has certainly changed, due to the work of one man. Whether he was western or asian or his mindset seems irrelevant, its his objective discoveries and contributions which mattered.
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@Kiwi
“workplace discrimination can be chalked up to language barriers, I’d just like to say that’s wrong.”
I didn’t say that discrimination due to language was the ONLY factor. Your family members ran up against a bamboo ceiling, but that bamboo ceiling would be that much lower if they weren’t entirely fluent in english.
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@Kiwi
“I do not even use my Asian first name in my daily interactions as it is a disadvantage”
I don’t necessarily see anything too nefarious or racist here. In China, it’s common for people to have western names, in addition to their chinese names, because it also gives them an advantage when dealing with english speakers (who are not the dominant race, so nothing to do with that). Chinese names simply don’t translate well into English, because the chinese characters behind the names, thus losing all the semantic meaning of the name, and because the chinese sounds have tone value which get completely mangled in english, further losing their original meaning.
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@ Bran
Well, I haven’t heard of Westerners take on other names so that non-Westerners can pronounce it more easily. And that of course has something to do with power. I’m German and my name is reasonably easy to pronounce for english-speakers, but I still use the English version of my first name whan interacting with them. I haven’t seen that happen the other way around.
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@Kartoffel
Westerners commonly take on chinese names in China.
It’s not merely that english speakers have difficulty pronouncing the name, its that the chinese language work differently, each syllable has a full semantic value that gets lost, and even a chinese person speaking english couldn’t say the tones properly when speaking the name because they have to follow the natural intonation of the english sentence instead. When spoken in english, chinese names are simply nonsense sounds. For place names they keep the chinese and sacrifice the meaning, but people have the flexibility to just choose an english name.
Of course in the US there can be some social power dynamics at work as well, but it’s not INHERENTLY a bad thing to have an english name.
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@Kartoffel
I think in the old days people would sometimes get around the issue by translating people’s names according to meaning, that’s why you get names like Jasmine or Lotus, but many names sound really odd when you do that.
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@ Kiwi
“So why wait?”
I don’t understand the question. I don’t think one should pursuit an enlargement of whiteness at all. It might improve the life chances of those included into whiteness, but it doesn’t change the racist nature of American society.
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@Kartoffel,
I don’t think anyone missed your point at all. Got it loud and clear.
But it appears that you missed the points others were making. It seems like you believe that the enlargement of Anglo-American whiteness to include Asians is destined to happen, because it was expanded post WWII to include the descendants of pre-WWI immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe, and that white people will decide when to enlarge whiteness to include Asian Americans to maintain their control in society.
C’mon, is that how you really feel?
That argument *might* apply to the decision to include the descendants of Southern and Eastern European immigrants (after including the German and Irish -decended Americans), but not likely to happen to descendants of Asian immigrants anytime soon.
Why?
– one reason given above is that Asians immigrated to the USA in significant numbers BEFORE the ones from Southern and Eastern Europe. Yet, if anything, they are treated even more as non-white foreigners today than they were a couple generations ago. Anna May Wong, descendant of 19th century immigrants, was born in the USA 115 years ago and became a prominent Hollywood actress, yet anyone named Wong and appearing at least part Asian is STILL a foreigner in the USA and not going away anytime soon.
(I know you acknowledged this, but don’t take it lightly. It is a much more salient issue than you give it credit for.)
– The Eastern and Southern European descended Americans bonded with the prior Anglo whites during WWII and moved into the same neighborhoods after WWII. They married with them and raised their baby boomer kids together. The white flight then was mostly fueled to flee blacks. That is what caused it to happen.
But Asians have been moving into those suburbs for 2 generations now. The enlargement of whiteness hasn’t happened yet and not getting there anytime soon.
But post 1965 immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe have already joined the white Anglo American bandwagon.
– The 1965 immigration laws which boosted Asian (and indirectly African and Latin America) immigration after 1968 further solidified the enlargement Eastern and Southern descendant Europeans into whiteness (in fact, we could see how they basically joined the White Anglo club around the 1970s). The non-European descendent Americans must be codified as “other” and “nonwhite” for this to work.
– American policy from the 1930s to today has had to demonize people from the Middle East, SE Asia and East Asia. There is a need to keep these people stereotyped as non-Americans in order to dehumanize them as “other”. They can’t have “regular” Americans look like the enemy. That plays TOO MUCH into American fears that their precious country will be taken over my aliens infiltrating their ranks.
White Americans fear blacks and then they fear aliens. Whatever enlargement of whiteness occurs has to encompass those 2 fears.
I think if the wars in Asia were to disappear and they all became US allies, then *maybe* it might happen, but it ain’t gonna happen as long as the USA sees itself as the leader of the West.
If you really feel that it is going to happen like you say, then you have skewed perception of the actual situation in the USA.
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@Kartoffel,
This post helps to explain it:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/the-three-pillars-of-american-white-supremacy/)
Any Americans identified with any of the 3 pillars will not be included into Americans whiteness, unless that pillar is completely removed.
That is what is needed.
And, to agree with you, whites will have to decide if and when it will happen.
But, they have too much invested into maintaining those pillars. They are not going to be dismantled anytime soon. Destroying any of those pillars will have the effect of undermining whiteness, which no whiteness advocate has any interest in doing.
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@Kiwi,
I stopped replying to this “Bran” character almost 2 weeks ago, but he is still addressing me (which I wish he would stop doing). I noticed he still addresses points made by you and Linda even regarding comments not directed at him.
You know who he is, right?
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@Jefe
“Add to that all the carefully skewed statistics. And imagining one is being attacked when one isn’t at all…”
“We are looking at a “white” race realist who imagines they know a little bit about Asia or Asian America either because they have been to Asia before or because they are married to an Asian woman, likely someone of East Asian descent (hence all that “IQ” stuff).”
“I bet, he feels that even the sentences above are personal attacks, when they aren’t”
You make two posts out of nowhere whose only intent is to discredit me on a personal level, by employing race-based stereotypes and labeling, not to mention questioning my honesty and basic mental capacity. Yet I’m not to interpret these as ‘personal attacks’ and not to respond.
Congratulations for taking a page out of the white supremacist playbook. Racially label, then permanently exclude.
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To Kiwi:
Westerners don’t take on Chinese names in their own countries but Chinese take on Western names in China. Chinese speakers have just as much difficulty pronouncing English names as English speakers do Chinese names. Why the disparity?
On that matter I wonder what the differences between China and India are, as generally Asian Indians do not take on Western names whether in Indian when working for US/British corporations or after they emigrate to the US. This in a country that was fully colonized by a Western power, Britain and has a Western language, English as one of it’s official languages. “The official languages of the Union Government (not the entire country) are Hindi and English”
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@Bran,
Please stop addressing me.
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@Kiwi
“Westerners don’t take on Chinese names in their own countries but Chinese take on Western names in China. Chinese speakers have just as much difficulty pronouncing English names as English speakers do Chinese names. Why the disparity?”
Westerners who come to China typically don’t learn the language and are often relegated to certain specialist (e.g. managerial, technical) roles or else fairly marginalized. They are welcome because they play an important part in the integration of china into the global economy and in the transfer of knowledge and technology to china. Foreigners are not expected to fully integrate into chinese society, so chinese make efforts to adapt to them, including often using english (which includes names) for communication. Foreign expats live in a marginalized world, never deriving the full benefits of the chinese system. China itself prefers to assimilate into the global system rather than have foreigners assimilate into China, for example it’s fairly impossible to obtain chinese citizenship. Chinese who immigrate to western countries like the US, on the other hand, want the full benefits of citizenship and will assimilate fully into the culture (including learning the language) in order to get there.
The general willingness of chinese to use western names is indicative of a cultural openness in general including towards whites, but it would be simplistic to simply claim that chinese are ‘less racist’ than whites. Racism on both sides manifests in different ways. For chinese, having a second name doesn’t feel like a compromise of ethnic identity, this may be related to a general affinity for cultural syncretism (japanese have this quality also), for example being taoist and buddhist at the same time.
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@UM
this might not be a fully relevant point.
For example, Singapore, Malaysia and Hong Kong were all colonized by Britain and have (or used to have) English as one of its official languages.
Many of the ethnic Chinese in those places (esp. SG and MY) do not take on western names because the local practice has changed the way that they are addressed in Chinese.
For example, Mr. Tan Lin Hock in Singapore might just be addressed as Lin Hock. Of course, some might have adopted, say, the name Raymond and use that too.
I think the reason is because SG and MY already have 100-150 years of using Latin letters to recognize their official name. The government offices have registered their names in Latin letters, and people there have become used to using pieces of their full unwesternized name (but written in Latin letters) to address each other.
This is similar to India.
But in China, it’s different. The latin letter representation of names has never been official. It is an adaption to the International scene. The way that Chinese in China address each other is not like the way they do it in Singapore and Malaysia. For Mr. Chen Lianhua, they use things like “Lao Chen” (Old Chen) or “ah hua” or “hua ge” elder brother Hua. That custom of addressing people informally does not translate easy into a communication system using English.
So, what is the way around this? Use Western names. They are interpreted as informal and easy for non-Chinese speakers or Western-educated Chinese to use.
If you look at HK, you will see the most weirdest of pet names that people choose. Many of them seem so informal that they would not impress one as being professional.
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@Kiwi,
A commenter above misconstrued your point. You were talking about Westerners taking Chinese names in their own countries, but he switched it to being about Foreign expats in China and how they are “welcome” there yet denied citizenship (as an explanation as to why Chinese take western names).
Amazing how someone can go so completely off base.
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@Kiwi,
What makes you think it is not one of those Asiaphile buddies?
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@ Kartoffel
White Hispanics: In the US there are more than enough of them for Whites to keep their electoral majority for the next hundred years. They will become White just like Jews and Italians did in the 1900s and the Irish and Germans did in the 1800s. Like this:
Asians: They are far more useful as an alien, threatening Other that helps to excuse US imperialism and keep the country’s defence industries in business. ISIS is a gold mine. So is Gaza. So was Vietnam. Thus the perpetual foreigner stereotype, which is applied to Asian Americans.
That is MY opinion.
What Bonilla-Silva says is that most Asians are not following the pattern that ethnic Whites did. According to the data, they are not on course to becoming White. The same for everyone else not at the top of his pyramid.
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“A commenter above misconstrued your point. You were talking about Westerners taking Chinese names in their own countries, but he switched it to being about Foreign expats in China and how they are “welcome” there yet denied citizenship (as an explanation as to why Chinese take western names). Amazing how someone can go so completely off base.”
Actually, the original point was about both western countries AND china. Chinese are expected to fully assimilate into western countries, while foreigners are not expected to fully assimilate into china, hence the term ‘expat’, and the differences in path (or lack of path) to citizenship.
Thanks for the continued unnecessary insults though. At least no more dragging of my personal love life into this, though I wonder what else is implied in ‘asiaphile’.
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@ Jefe and Kiwi:
Remember what I wrote earlier?
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Leigh
Rofl!
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Amazing how anything levels up to an insult. Huh jefe?
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@abagond
US defence industries were kept in business for 45 years by the threat of the Soviets. Yet weren’t russians considered white in the US during this time? I don’t believe russian-americans were ever demonized, the battle was between communism and capitalism. The US government distinguishes between a capitalist Taiwan ally and a communist China. Going forward, aren’t chinese-americans in no worse position than russian-americans were during the Cold War?
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@ Jefe
I completly agree with what you said about the inclusion of “ehtnic whites” after WW2. I think one of the deciding stepping stones was their inclusion into the Greatest Generation narrative.
My theory of a possible enlargemnt onto Asians was based on the assumption that Asians today are in a comparable situation as Italians in 1910 and that their inclusion would cost whites not more ideological effort than the third enlargement of whiteness. Perhaps that’s wrong.
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I said my arguments why I think that’s a possibility. I have to think on your, Jefe’s and Abagond’s arguments more to say anything further. I think the biggest problem is, as Abagond said, that there is no forseeable necessity for whites to enlarge whitenss beyond Latinos.
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I will agree about Brans one point about it was about communism versus capitalism , and America did distinguish between Asian countries that were allies.
I was draft age with the spectrum of the Vietnam war hanging over my head , and let me make this very clear , there was absolutly no G***kifying of Asians where I lived…Americans who were racist in the first place , were the ones who used these terms with no shortages of those types, and there were Americans of all strata who were sympathetic to the plight of the Viet Namese people, and affected Americas political direction
And , Abagond , seriously, phuc ISIS , I will look forward to future reports of their body parts being spread out , especialy the Brit and Euros flocking there to create their caliphate…this intelectual debate , and naive referances to cia creation , really come off as constipation in the face of the disgusting reality unfolding there…
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@Sharina, do you recognize who we are dealing with?
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@ B.R.
From what I understand, American soldiers were indoctrinated to have a dehumanized view of the Vietnamese – not as “communists” but racialized as “gooks” and “zips”. Most of these men, nearly 3 million, returned home, had families, etc. Some even became senators, like John McCain.
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@Abagond
Good point. McCain did say, “I hated the gooks. I will hate them as long as I live.”
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@ Bran
The Cold War period was one of the least racist in American history – it saw the end of Jim Crow, the ending of racist immigration controls, etc. I think that is partly due to the US having as its main enemy a people it could not racialize.
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Abagond , what I suggest is that it was the Americans who were racist anyway , in the army , who would perpetuate that
This is like the Nigerian army is half Islamic , so elements are going to support radicle Islam
The American army is made up by half people from the South and other bigots
I can make a statement about where I lived , and , of the Viet Vets I know, only one let out a racist statement against Asians…and he wasnt my freind
I can say , this mentality did not exist where I lived , except with people who were racist or bigoted in the first place…which for sure there were people like that
But there was no media campain where I lived making Asians seem bad
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@Kartoffel,
I think the two posts about the 3 pillars of white supremacy and the 3rd enlargement of whiteness helps to explain why Asians are not going to be white anytime soon.
The definitions have changed and will change. We can only speculate what will happen.
For example, under the 3 pillars, 19th century Chinese coolies were probably lumped into the same category as blacks, ie, cheap / slave labour. So were the Japanese that followed them and the Filipinos that followed them. Then once they became Yellow Peril, they shifted to the 3rd pillar, ie, permanent aliens in the minds of Americans. The USA wages war in Asia and it is necessary to view them as aliens to keep the war machine and leader of the Western world thing going. Why haven’t any wars been launched in Africa; Europe, even Latin America in the last century? America joined WWII to help their allies and only after Japan bombed it. In the 1930s many Americans identified as white still identified with their German and Italian ancestry, so it would be hard to attack and invade those countries.
It is possible for persons of Western Asian descent (eg, Armenian, Lebanese, Syrian, etc.) to be accepted as white if they do not have Muslim identity and willing to act, talk and think like white anglo americans. But, basically, they are hiding their background, or “passing” as white as a Muslim identity will racialize them.
As Jews are non-muslim, those that act, talk and think like white anglo americans also can pass as white, at least since about the 1980s.
Whites in the USA basically divide themselves by religion, not national origin of their ancestors.
Multi-ethnic mixed racial Asians (say, 1/4 Chinese, 1/4 Japanese, 1/4 Hawaiian and 1/4 mixed European) are not considered white (or even regarded as “American”) despite having a mixed ethnic or ancestral national origin that includes European and ancestors in the US for 150 years.
The definition of the pillars shift and the definition of white will shift, but they seem to be pretty much established. Whites may be less strict about blood quantum, but still strict about allegiance to whiteness.
That is why, if whiteness is expanded, it can easily include white hispanics, and will include some multiracials (those who are over 1/2 white or more and ideally have a European sounding surname or otherwise are at least 3/4 European) who pledge allegiance to whiteness. Whites might be able to accept that someone could have a Japanese or Mexican or mulatto grandmother and still be considered (more or less) white. In the 21st century, Dean Cain and Keanu Reeves, by assuming their step-father’s surname may be able to be accepted as more or less white if they demonstrate their allegiance to whiteness.
That might not have been possible 100 years ago unless they “passed” and hid their background. Persons with 1/4 Japanese ancestry were still imprisoned in the concentration camps and were prohibited from marrying whites. Canadian born Canadians of 1/2 European descent were not allowed to enter the USA at all if the other 1/2 of their ancestry was Chinese, but European born Canadians could without restriction.
My ideal scenario: Get rid of whiteness. Then there is no need to determine who is and isn’t white.
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Your understanding is spot on, Abagond.
The RACIALIZATION of (East and Southeast) Asians was central to military training in that conflict.
That racist dehumanization didn’t happen in a cultural vacuum.
Or just rescind with Peace.
It’s not as though words like g00k, or slopes, or dinks were suddenly “invented” by racists who only existed in the Army. It was the usual attitude but just stepped up for war, to harden fighters.
The treatment, as well, of Asian-Americans who served in Vietnam also testifies to that, as their PTSDs (from later research) seems to point out that anti-Asian personnel were on the receiving end of daily dehumanization and harassment of the racial kind.
From what I remember about this, the form it took was not that different from the usual Perpetual Foreigner stuff. This meant having to constantly prove they were Americans because they didn’t look like they “belonged” and were in essence, as ever, The Enemy, and would be punished for it.
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That is a very interesting thought.
The cold war included Cuba, East Germany, Russia, China, etc. There was no racial face on that unlike the war on terror.
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Jefe
Sorry. No. After a while the just all seem to sound alike.
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@Bulanik
Were and still are. Recall the Daniel Chen hazing in 2012.
By the way, I don’t mean to be nitpicky 😛 :P, but do you mean
” … Asian personnel were on the receiving end of daily anti-Asian dehumanization and harassment of the racial kind.”
Just wanted to make sure I read it correctly. 😛
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@Sharina,
Just observe what will “miff” who.
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@ Jefe, it was a thought that alerted many when Nelson Mandela pointed out that it was South Africa’s communists who were the only political group who were prepared to relate to Africans as human beings and as equals.
Remember of course that was at a point when the colonial powers had had much of Asia, Africa and South America under its sway.
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@ Jefe, your correction is the right one!! 🙂
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Jefe says “The USA wages war in Asia and it is necessary to view them as aliens to keep the war machine and leader of the Western world thing going. Why haven’t any wars been launched in Africa; Europe, even Latin America in the last century?”
This is totally inaccurate. The US has been involved in endless wars and conflicts around the world over the last century. Practically all of Latin America was a battleground. Those wars resulted in way more deaths than the Just counting from after WWII…
The US only waged four wars in Asia since WWII, in Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia and Afghanistan. In the rest of the world, the US was there either through direct troop invasion (Greece, Dominican Republic, Grenada, Panama), directly backed coup d’etat (Guatemala, Chile, Egypt, Brazil, Haiti, Honduras, Argentina), or military support- either money or personnel (Ethiopia, Somalia, Israel, Angola, El Salvador, Congo, Lebanon). There were many other aggressions such as Venezuela, Bolivia, Puerto Rico, Cuba.
I’m sure this list isn’t complete, and more and more evidence will come to light about covert US involvement all around the world.
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@ Jefe
What letter does it start with?
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@ Bran
You left out Iraq. All the big wars, ones with, say, at least 100,000 US troops, have been in Asia.
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Well isnt that funny , people who werent even in America at the time , pass third and forth hand depictions
I stand by the fact that the Viet Nam vets that I know personaly , except for one person , werent indoctrinated into being anti Asian, and didnt use anti Asian slurs
And , where I lived, there was no American campain against Asians
As a matter of fact , this papo chato insults my intelligence and the intelligence and bravery and courage of these people I know…and their integrity, since they didnt become anti Asian
I know a guy dropped into Viet cong tunnels with only a flash light and pistol to face the enemy, far more profound tha anyones military experiance on this blog, and he was an incredible individual , with never a negative word about Asians…and he was our high schools motivational speaker for the army,representing the army and never implicated Asians …give me an efing break with this hindsight ambush of Viet Nam vets..and speculations from third hand sources….crap that bs
For , sure , there were plenty of American bigots in the army, if some southern white bigot sargent, or a group of racists displayed anti Asian racism , that is one thing, to implicate in general American solders of this behavior, coming from people who dont even know people who served, running their third hand information , or because they saw their anecdotal examples, when this is my generation you are slurring , borders on disgusting
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Jefe, this one sounds Wayyy more intelligent than the one that always miffs everyone off… I was thinking it was “A” former “S”eriaL irritant from the “P”ast that feLt the “U”rge to contiNue this “D”iscussion… do you think so?
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@abagond
“All the big wars, ones with, say, at least 100,000 US troops, have been in Asia.”
That’s one measurement of the size of american involvement. Vietnam and Korea were the only big asian wars as measured by casualties/deaths, but the Ethiopian war still had more deaths. Cambodia and Afghanistan were very minor compared to other conflicts in Africa, Middle East, and even Latin America.
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@Linda,
M-m-h.
Maybe.
At least you thought of it.
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@abagond
“You left out Iraq.”
I also left out the US-backed Iran-Iraq war, the most devastating war of the last 80 years, both by total body count and by atrocities (chemical warfare) on the battlefield.
There is no need for racism in order to justify US aggression overseas. As one can see from the record (and if we go back another 50 years, we could add a dozen or more countries), the US has waged war all over the place for a diverse number of geopolitical, strategic, financial, economic, ideological, etc. reasons.
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@ Kiwi
Thanks for the link. I’d heard that this subject was being investigated (long overdue) some years ago. The Indian and East/Southeast Asian soldiers seem to share similar experiences:
http://nymag.com/news/features/danny-chen-2012-1/
The last I’d heard on the matter was the case of Private Danny Chen.
His was a suicide that occurred after months of daily hazing (torture).
Choruses of “g00k,” “ch!nk,” “dragon lady” were standard during his ordeal.
http://nymag.com/news/features/danny-chen-2012-1/
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You Know, Kiwi, I think that might very well be a partial explanation for the aversion that some Asian-American parents for their children to join law enforcement and military.
There is a decided history of targetting Asian Americans for ethnic cleansing (esp. 1870s – 1910s) for illegal immigration (1910s – 1960s), and beyond, with police raids extending into the 2000s), and for dehumanization to enable support for America’s war and aggression (1940s to today). I think there is something learned, but not spoken in Asian American families about the danger in these areas related not to the possibility of violence, but to race and power structure.
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Kiwi, I think that many of the urban Native Americans may have registered with a tribal affiliation, but often do not maintain intense social identity with the tribe in an urban setting. As “assimilated” native Americans, they probably circulate mostly in white social circles and are also likely to be part white / European already. They may be even less “exotic” or “other” than 4th generation Hapa Americans.
Regarding your other questions, he did say that the racial categories would be pourous. And the definition of “white” would never be a fixed demarcation.
Filipinos come in a range of colours and backgrounds too. Those that are part European and / or Chinese may be differentiated as they are in the Philippines.
I haven’t read the book either, so I can only speculate what the author means.
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I don’t think the difference between Koreans and Hmong is about skin color. I think it’s more about class, since Hmong people are more of an indigenous culture and Koreans can be brain-drain, although there are plenty of poor Korean Americans. My life experiences with Koreans and Korean Americans have been pretty positive. I see a tendency to speak out against injustice and to have compassion for the poor.
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I disagree with Kiwi. I’ve known Native Americans who “look white” (at least to non-Natives) and don’t identify as white at all. One was my Native American Studies professor. There were Native Americans in the class who didn’t “look white” who never acted like she was not as Native as they were. I think this is characteristic of mixed race ethnic groups. Appearance isn’t enough to “become white”. You also have to have the willingness to betray your ethnic group including your own relatives.
I see African immigrants doing well in terms of education and jobs (=class) although I don’t feel them directing racism against me even when in positions of class privilege over me, probably because they experience racism like other American Blacks. This is also true for the most part of Asian American doctors, etc. I’ve had some experiences of African immigrants and Asian Americans helping whites at their jobs commit injustices against me, but this is true of every ethnic group of color including American Blacks.
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