“Ching chong” (by 1864) is a racist slur used in the English-speaking world to put down people from East Asia by mocking Chinese. Often it comes with other racist acts, like pushing someone off a playground slide – or burying them in a mine shaft.
It is not just ignorant, insensitive schoolchildren who say it. So do grown people in the US in the 2000s and 2010s. For example:
- Rosie O’Donnell,
- Stephen Colbert,
- Shaquille O’Neal,
- Rush Limbaugh,
- Amy Sedaris,
- Dave Chappelle,
- Adam Carolla,
- Al Roker,
- Kathie Lee Gifford,
- Alexandra Wallace (UCLA student),
- Capitol Steps,
- CVS,
- Chick-fil-A.
Not only children and Republicans laugh at it. So do supposedly liberal newspaper editors.
In the US it is applied to all East Asians – even though 81% of Asian Americans do not speak Chinese as their mother tongue.
They say it not just to Asians who know little English but even to Asian Americans with degrees from top American universities, whose families have lived in America for over a hundred years.
They say it like Asian Americans are perpetual foreigners.
They say it like “ching chong” is a faithful imitation of Chinese, not an ignorant stereotype.
They say it like Chinese does not have a literature that goes back thousands of years, back to when the people who spoke what would become English could not even read or write.
They say it like it is all right to disrespect other people’s language, culture or race, making it into a laughingstock.
They say it like they look down on people who are different.
They say it like there is something wrong with being Asian.
They say it like there is nothing wrong with being – racist.
At one level, most Americans seem to know it is racist. Comedians Stephen Colbert and Dave Chappelle both used it assuming that their (mostly White) audience knew it was racist.
Yet Whites are quick to brush off any offence it causes Asians, telling them in so many words that they are being oversensitive or humourless. Rosie O’Donnell’s publicist in 2006:
I certainly hope that one day they will be able to grasp her humor.
“Ching chong” dates back to at least 1864 in Australia, to the minstrel song, “Poor Ching Chong”, where it rhymes with Hong Kong.
By 1888 in the US children were saying stuff like this in Portland, Oregon:
Ching, Chong, Chineeman,
How do you sell your fish?
Ching, Chong, Chineeman,
Six bits a dish,
Ching, Chong, Chineeman,
Oh! that is too dear
Ching, Chong, Chineeman,
Clear right out of here!
There were other such “Ching Chong Chinaman” rhymes. One appeared in John Steinbeck’s “Cannery Row” (1945), set in California in the 1930s.
“Ching chong” seems to be a bad, anglicized imitation of Cantonese, maybe affected by the English word “chink”, another anti-Asian slur. The i-to-o pattern is English, not Chinese: sing song, criss cross, tick tock, hip hop.
What does “ching chong” mean in Chinese? After searching the Internet, the best translation I could find was this:
Hello, I am an ignorant American as well as a closet racist.
– Abagond, 2014.
See also:
- Asian American reaction:
- Examples:
- Alexandra Wallace: Asians in the Library
- Stephen Colbert: #CancelColbert
- minstrel show
- perpetual foreigner
- Stuff White People Probably Shouldn’t Say
- Tips on writing about Asian America
I am curious to know, if in 2014, Asian Americans get this type of treatment.
Now, i am speaking from my perspective when i say this…..
I feel that Asian Americans that were in America for generations, are so whitewashed to the point, that they have given up their own culture in favor of white culture, that the majority of whites, see them as white.
The model minority stereotype, comes to mind.
I feel that Asians in America have made their deal with the devil, therefore they make common ground with whites and not other minorities. While they choose to dance with the devil, they are subjected with being the “safe minority” to make fun of via racial jokes and are expected to take it!
Some Asians do as they laugh along with the white person and don’t challenge their racism, being they are so whitewashed, they don’t even see themselves as Asian!
I always have looked at Asians to be a race of people that have done nothing to bring about equality and civil rights for themselves, all they have done is piggy backed on the civil rights that blacks have fought for with their lives.
Asians have reaped the benefits that blacks died for, doing nothing but being submissive as far as civil rights goes, all the while, worshiping all things white and even turning against blacks that have done nothing to them, compared to whites!
I am not saying that Asians deserve to receive the treatment that whites give them but on the other hand, you have to take whats being dished out to you if you choose to dance with the devil!
Are their whitewashed blacks? of coarse but in large, blacks don’t have common cause with whites, being our history goes much deeper than that of Asians in America.
Because of this, i kinda feel a certain way about Asians. Its not like i hate them or even dislike them. I just don’t have much say to them in terms of civil rights. Say if me and abagond was having a discussion about Civil rights and an Asian came in the discussion.
I really would be like…wait. you’re playing both sides, do you really even have a position on the topic?
Most Asians have white friends, never black or Latino. Hell, some don’t even have other Asians friends!
I feel they just don’t have enough issues compared to blacks to even bring anything to the table to complain about. Its all just, “person racism” they experience, unlike the, “institutional racism” that blacks experience in America. Not to mention, being the “model minority” if they choose to not have common cause with blacks,Latinos and other minorities.
I feel to a degree that Asians sign up for the model minority status, so they can be accepted into the, “white club”. then when they are the butt of the white owners racist jokes, then they wanna play the victims of racism.
You can’t dance with the devil without getting your flesh pierced….
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Sondis, I respectfully disagree with you. Based on my experience at least there is not only common cause but also common experiences.
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Abagond, I agree that “ching chong” is a racial stereotype, but Stephen Colbert used the phrase in an effort to point out the absurdity of using a racial stereotype in an organization designed to celebrate a certain race. He could not have made the point without using some sort of racial stereotype to illustrate his point. Grouping him in with others who use the phrase in a manner to demonize Asian-Americans is unfair at best. Using the phrase both defended Native Americans and Asian Americans.
I really enjoy your posts for the most part, but I feel like you have a bent against white people, that no matter what we do, it will never be good enough, even if we are fighting against racism and the use of stereotypes. I was born “white”; I cannot help that, but I try to change perceptions of race as much as I
can, but your aggression, although it is certainly warranted towards some white people, is directed at every person who is white and it’s very discouraging when some of us are trying as hard as we can to be insulted simply because we are white.
I understand that being born white excludes us from the experience of racial discrimination (to an extent, I’m Jewish), and precludes us from using racial epithets since those words have been used by many of us to hurt people of other races, but when someone is genuinely trying to fight against racial discrimination, like Stephen Colbert obviously was in the piece, it’s like there’s nothing we can do that you will approve of. It’s so discouraging, it’s like you’re trying to exclude us from trying to solve the problem. I really don’t get where you’re coming from on this.
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Let’s speak English! King Kong ding dong ping pong ring wrong sing song!
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@ Sondis
Many people have this misconception (not that parts of it aren’t’s true in some cases) but I can tell you that Asians are not accepted as White, even when they move in White circles. There are always some Whites around who will never let them forget that they are “privileged” to be among them and to remind them that they better know their place in the pecking order!
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Sondis,
Have you ever gone out and studied the history of Asian / black race relations in the USA, dating at least back to the 1850s-1860s up until the present, as well as the history of civil rights in the US? It seems like you are inclined to believe the Model Minority stereotype and in the erasure of that history to be replaced with the stereotype.
The history of Asian / black relations (and the impact that white / black relations had on white / Asian relations and vice versa) has been erased from the US history narrative so you will not find out about it unless you actively go and look for it.
I admit that many Asian Americans have been taught the same thing, esp. those who were born in the USA or immigrated after the Model Minority Stereotype was promoted. It has encouraged blacks and Asians to hold stereotypes towards each other based on white stereotypes, split up their common interests and let whites off the hook.
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Did anyone else learn those Ching Chong Chinaman rhymes as a child?
The first one I heard at about age 5:
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Hah, my comment is in moderation. Now I know which is a moderated word.
People, if it comes out of moderation, don’t copy my mistake. 😛
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@ Sondis
I think Asian stories are buried in the American discourse on race, what little discourse there is happening. Black and white relations is the poster child for American racism but it doesn’t mean no one else was and is doing anything. I’m not Asian and from an “outsider” looking in, I get the strong impression that those of East Asian stock are not allowed to express displeasure with whites, whether on institutional(Uni quotas!) or personal levels for they risk losing their precarious social status(something most people chase). Blacks and Asians might not have identical American stories but there’s definitely some overlap.
@ Daniel Bryant
You were born with certain physical features, you were not born white, no one is, you were socialized as such. Also why are you discouraged by what one person writes(and I don’t recall him ever applying anything to all whites)? Unless there was some cookie expected, or a more tender tone to be used when talking about race.
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Kiwi,
There are some institutionalized racism aspects where Asians seem to have even a more difficult time than blacks, e.g., Sports and Hollywood and Pop Music.
But you know, for me, it is not a contest of what has it worst. That discussion doesn’t really go anywhere.
I would love to see all Americans learn real US history at one stage, not US mythology, as well as US history from Black, Asian, Native American, Pacific Islander, Mexican and other Latino perspectives, not to mention the history of race relations.
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@ Sondis, that’s the tragedy of being such a marginalized minority. The stories are never heard and atrocities never accounted for. Asians have been through so much including being banned from entering the country. You have to remember that their was a time having an Asiatic Mongoloid face like the original Native Americans meant genocide was guaranteed. I could argue to you with some degree, that African Americans might have it easier due to sheer numbers 60 million + strong vs 3.5 million which means a face more common and recognizable. Remember Asians are jumbled together whether it be more white looking Pakistanis and Indians to classic East Asians. The white-washed ones sell their soul while the wiser ones always know they are Asian but look towards modern benefits of culture to improve psychological and physical health.
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The Latinos that look completely white and pass as white as well as the white – looking Native American that is probably white but receiving BS benefits. These are the people I can’t stand….
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Would she be able to find the humour in being called a “fat dyke”, I wonder?
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Sondis said:
Is that true?
Is the history of Asians in America(s) not as deep as the history of Africans there?
That is another way of saying Asians have experienced less racism, and that the racism they do experience is of a personal and trivial sort:
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Then, there is this “pact with the devil” thing. Basically, “Asians are sellouts”.
As if to say, almost: you people are in bed with white people, don’t expect any respect from people who have really suffered and continue to suffer.
In this sense, it’s almost like saying, Look Asians, I don’t to have to take your grievances too seriously, because you are no more than a WHOLE RACE of negr0 bed w*nches..
Jefe has explained this mechanism a few times, I believe.
Abagond outlined how the Model Minority stereotypes that afflicts — AFFLICTS — Asians AND black people. They are supposed to be opposites.
From: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/the-model-minority-stereotype/
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I just feel more needs to be said to analyse this, to see it for what it is, until it’s laid bare because I don’t think Sondis’s point of view is unusual at all.
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@ Daniel Bryant
This post, like many of my posts, was very specific. It was not some vague rant against White people. If you do not do the stuff in the post, then it was not about you. But if you do do it, then maybe you should stop and become a little bit less racist. Any improvement is better than nothing. Racism is not an all or nothing thing.
I know that by adding Colbert to the list I am kind of shooting myself in the foot. But that is just it: he has tons of cultural cred, so others will follow his example. They will forget the “context” and “satirical nuance” of the joke and just go ahead and use it anyway. After all, if a comic genius like Colbert uses it, how bad can it be?
We have been down this road before with Black comedians using the N-word:
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From my post on counter-frames:
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“Redneck” is a somewhat derogatory term (certainly not on par with the n-word, etc, but still offensive). Abagond, your use of the word demonstrates your hypocrisy.
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@ Vajackster
I always thought it was US term on-par with “ghetto”.
It’s about economics and social standing.
What about hill-billy and down-home and country?
I have heard that white people use such words with pride as it refers to a rural background, and make tv sitcoms out of it.
I am not sure how true this is.
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Bulanik, I think Sondis has bought into the Model Minority stereotype himself.
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“ghetto” refers to economics and class, but has a definite race “tone” to it.
Those other words are confined to rural, or poor/not wealthy white people, but I don’t know if they are used to “racialize”.
Those words can be used as slurs, but I thought there was a lot of pride associated with being Blue Collar.
At least, that’s how I understood it, looking in from the outside…
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@ Vajackster
Fair point. I updated the post:
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Bulanik, I think redneck has some derogatory connotation associated with it. But whites often use it as a caricature of racist uncle. Maybe Abagond could have replaced “rednecks” with “rednecked racist uncles” & then avoid offending whites.
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Jefe, I have heard white people use this word “redneck” in just the same way.
lol!
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“Redneck”? A totally innocuous term. However, there’s evidence it causes a flutter or twinge of psychological disturbance in people who see things that aren’t there.
One night not long ago, I was on the NY City subway, in a nearly empty subway car, when a rather shabby looking black guy walked through the car. I was leaning against a vertical pole in the middle of the car. The handful of other passengers were seated on the bench seats.
The black guy told me I was in his way. I was reading something, my concentration was on the book in my hand. So I looked around to see if it were possible that I was blocking his path. He was obviously wrong. There was plenty of room for him to pass. Plenty.
Meanwhile, he didn’t seem crazy. Just confrontational. I told him, I’m not in your way, you’ve plenty of room.
His response — “You know what? You a m-f redneck. That’s what you are. A m-f redneck.”
I said okay. Great.
I wondered if he thought that calling me a redneck would wound m?. Hit me where it hurts. For a moment I thought he was joking. But he kept yelling redneck at me as he made his way to the door at the end of the car, and then he went into the next car.
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Great post. Unfortunately i have heard African Americans use this offensive term when referring to the nail salon owners and the many beauty supply owners who are Asian mostly they are Korean. They mindlessly say this because of ignorance. I do try and correct friends and relatives about how this is just like calling someone the N-word. We all have much to learn. I remember when Rosie O’donnell made this derogatory statement on a talk show. She can be very rude and ignorant sometimes.
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@ Abagond: Al Roker, and Chick-fil-A, are you kidding me? Seriously?
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Kathy Lee Gifford was imitating Al Roker doing a chinese accent. It sounds like they put their foot in their mouths.
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I just wanted to make it a point to say, that my comments came from a place of confusion and ignorance to a certain degree.
I actually needed feedback from my Asian,Black and brown brothas and sistas. I appreciate the correction and constructive criticism, that i have received.
I will look at Asians with less of an accusing eye, before understanding their plight. I was just expressing my feelings, openly and honestly.
My intentions were not to offend my Asian brothas and sistas but to open a dialog with them.
Now….if only white people can have the same humble attitude in regards to preconceived notions about blacks, other people of color and concede to their ignorance ( lack of knowledge ) , then we would be on our way to curbing racism.
Notice i said, “curbing” and not, “abolishing” racism. I am a realist and have no notions of racism, ever being completely abolished as long as white people are in power.
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I do seem to recall the incident of the cashier at Chick-fil-A being fired for the racist slur on about an Asian customer. It’s all clear for me now why Al Roker and Kathy Lee -Gifford and the Chick-Fil-A incident. This just life in America. Lots of microaggressions by everyone. I guess this is why they make individuals attend sensitivity training.
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@ Sondis: I can appreciate that when you learn better you do better, I think you are try to do that.
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@ Mary,
I looked up Al Roker, and I see that Chick-fil-A is a restaurant in the US.
Can you tell me what the significance is, please?
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@Bulanik,
(http://blog.angryasianman.com/2011/12/chik-fil-cashier-names-customers-ching.html)
Chick Fil A is a fast food restaurant franchise chain with branches mainly across the Southern US. I remember seeing them in Georgia and Alabama.
There most famous national controversy was their public opposition to same sex marriage in 2011. Several months later they changed their policy towards LBGT.
I did not know about their Ching Chong incident until I saw it mentioned here. I guess it did not receive the same national attention.
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@Bulainik: At Chick-fil-A a worker referred to an Asian customer as this offensive word. And Al Roker is the weather commentator of the NBC morning show “Good Day” a stupid comment was made with Roker using an affected Chinese accent. And Kathy Lee-Gifford repeating the stupid joke in the offensive accent and i think she did the stretching of the eyes to mimic Asians. It was all very ugly. I did’nt know about this until i read it here on Abagonds blog. I am surprised at Al Roker doing this. Kathy Lee Gifford has always annoyed me. Never liked her.
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@ Sondis, I don’t know of anyone, including myself, who hasn’t absorbed ideas from the culture they live in, that later, did not want any part of.
I have only respect for anyone who cares enough to do that.
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Thank you, Jefe and Mary.
Also, just looked up Kathy Lee Gifford…
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Correction NBC “Today Show is the Al Roker show.
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I wonder if Rosie O’Donnell saw Beau Sia’s Youtube video? It was on point. Somebody needs to call her out on her b.s. she is so annoying to me.
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Beau Sia’s broke it down. I like him.
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Didn’t that girl on “Big Brother” also say some Ching Chong stuff once or twice before she got booted out of the house?
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPUqNOHEK0)
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“Notice i said, “curbing” and not, “abolishing” racism. I am a realist and have no notions of racism, ever being completely abolished as long as white people are in power.”
**************
The problem isn’t that white people are in power. The problem is that there are “WHITE” people. Lose the “white” label, lose the category, lose the “white” definition, lose the supposed superiority!
:”Maybe then the earth will go back to the paradise it was before the white man showed up.
****************
The Earth was hardly a paradise before the advent of so-called white people, but yes, it’s been even further away from nirvana or heaven since their arrival.
Nonetheless, losing WHITENESS wouldn’t harm the earth. It would at least begin a much needed restoration/healing process.
So the question becomes how hard will the so-called “WHITE” people fight to preserve their status/privileges? Would they rather destroy the Earth in order to maintain their WHITENESS? Or will they give it up for the sake of peace and justice?
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@ Chick O Fillet matter
I remember back in 2005 I ordered a burrito with 5 different kinds of beans in it and used like 3 toilette disposable cleaning wipes to sanitize myself and my receipt literally read “Spic Span”. Now if that young lady got nearly a $1million for what Chic O Fillet did to her, I think I could have gotten some retribution my case as well. Now that I think about it, it was indeed a clever way of slurring me even though I ain’t Latino/Hispanic at all…..
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[…] “Ching chong” (by 1864) is a racist slur used in the English-speaking world to put down people from East Asia by mocking Chinese. Often it comes with other racist acts, like pushing someone off a playground slide – or burying them in a mine shaft. It is not just ignorant, insensitive schoolchildren who say it. So do grown people in the US in the 2000s and 2010s. For example:" […]
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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@ George
I disagree:
The photograph shows a White teenager attacking a Black lawyer with the US flag. This took place during the violent protests by Everyday White People against school desegregation in Boston.
More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soiling_of_Old_Glory
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abagond,
The photo shows a white TEENAGER swinging a flagpole at Ted Landsmark, who was not a lawyer. Meanwhile, the confrontation came about in a random way. The unlucky Landsmark merely walked into a protest over busing in Boston in 1976 while on his way to another location.
You can be sure there were very few white parents in Boston — and elsewhere — who wanted their kids bused to predominantly black schools and there were few white parents who wanted black kids bused to predominantly white schools.
Aside from changing jobs, busing was a chief reason white families left Boston, Chicago and New York City. Eventually, the social engineers gave up on that foolish practice.
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@sb32199
It’s nice to know where you stand. Though you are sadly correct; integration was a Dream, a pipe dream.
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taleoflions, I live in NY City, where I’ve lived for most of my life. Integration happens here when it isn’t forced. But there’s no avoiding the facts about group behavior.
Kids in public schools are pretty much an undifferentiated mass until third grade. That’s when group differences become plain as day. Even in the so-called Gifted Program, the program that keeps a lot of white and Asian students in public schools.
Entrance into junior high/middle school is competitive for the better students. But by that time, it’s painfully obvious that the vast majority of kids heading to the top junior high/middle schools, and later to the top high schools, are largely white and Asian.
Yet whites are only 14 percent of the student body. Asians also account for only 14 percent. Blacks make up 30 percent and Hispanics are 40 percent. So the imbalance is huge.
It isn’t money that separates the students. Many of the Asian kids are poor. Most of the white kids are middle class, as are many of the black and Hispanic kids. But there is a big difference in culture.
The culture gap is wildly evident at the high school level. The top high schools, for which entry depends on the score received on a test that’s competitive but not overly difficult, are heavily populated by Asians. Depending on the school, anywhere from 50 percent to almost 75 percent. Almost all of the non-Asians are white.
Whites aren’t squawking about the success of Asian students. It’s earned.
Meanwhile, in NY City kids spend time with the school buddies and their neighborhood pals. To some degree the kids and their friendships shape the social dynamic for parents too. Therefore, socially, there’s racial overlap, but it doesn’t equal the racial make-up of the city.
My older son, when he attended a Montessori school, became friends with a black student whose father was a minister. Interestingly, the kid’s father put an end to the friendship. The two boys were good together. They were five or six years old, so I saw no reason for the cold shoulder. But that was that. Both boys are now 21-22, though I don’t know what became of my son’s erstwhile friend.
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@Matari: I’m curious: If the “white” label is to be abolished, what happens to the other racial labels? Because if the “white” label was abolished while everyone else still had racial labels, wouldn’t that still be retaining a distinction between “white” and everyone else, only now “white” isn’t “white”, they’re just “people” (which then seems like it makes the “ex-white” now just “people” so anyone that isn’t white is still “not just a person”, which seems like a “white norm”!)?
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Vey interesting post, Abagond. People need to be enlightened on derogatory terms such as – “ching chong”, “nigger”, “coon”, “spook”, “jungle bunny”, “cracker”, “honky”, “casper”, “nip”, “wop”, “spic”, “wetback”, “beaner”,
“hemi”, “heb”, “abo” (a racial slur towards Native Australians), “Indo” (a racial slur towards Native Americans), etc. As a kid I was told by my maternal grandfather that the derogatory word “honky” comes from disrespecting white men who would honk their car horns to get the attention of Black women on the street (it didn’t matter if these Black women were “street walkers” or not). My aunt who owned an income tax and notary business (she’s retired) said that she got honked by many white men (many who were white collar workers) as she would walk from her parked car to the building.
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re: Sondis’s remark:
The Asian Americans Advancing Justice – Asian Law Caucus is releasing a 16-part series of short videos profiling AAPI civil rights heroes. They fought for civil rights matters that benefited all Americans, or at least large sectors are groups in the USA.
Here is a small sample:
http://blog.angryasianman.com/2014/05/who-says-there-are-no-aapi-civil-rights.html#more
The first civil rights action lawsuit to oppose segregation in the public schools was Tape v. Hurley (1884) – 70 years before Brown v. Board. Quite a few of the civil rights action cases that overturned Jim Crow had precedents that had been launched by Asian-Americans decades earlier.
US v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) benefited all Americans, not just those of Chinese descent.
The Asian coolie trade was spread to the USA and caribbean because the African slave trade had been abolished. The coolie trade was abolished about the same time as the Emancipation Proclamation, only to be replaced with other forms of indentured servitude.
If you study US history, you will find a very long history of the interrelationships of different groups working for civil rights, and the role that whites have been using for centuries to play different racial groups against one another. The Model Minority Stereotype is just a recent version that is still operating now. I could identify at least 3-4 prior versions of such race relations social and political manoeuvre in earlier periods. There were probably very many of them.
That is why I strongly advocate that we need to teach and learn US history differently.
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@ sb
My point was that everyday White people would fight to defend their White privilege, as in the protests against school desegregation in Boston, contrary to what George thinks.
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@abagond I’m glad you pointed out the black people and the “Liberals” who have said “ching chong” (I quote that, because the “liberals” of today are more like authoritarians, than classical liberals. Libertarians are more like traditional liberals) I think most who use it (like kids) are just being ignorant and don’t realize the harm it might be causing someone. I personally haven’t used it as an adult at all. But it was only recently I have learned of it’s offense. When I was a kid being ignorant (not knowing) I think making fun of a cartoonish sounding chinese accent I think I would say “ching chong wong” or “wing wang woo” again it wasn’t like using the n word. It was more ignorant imitation and making fun.
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In my opinion ch*nk or go0k would be more along the lines of being hateful, and or racist. I noticed that was used alot in the 80s when everyone was saying the japanese were taking jobs and competing in industry.
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@sb32199
Yes culture is a factor, but it’s not magic. If you are of a culture that puts great stress on math test evaluation, and entry into a school flush with resources (textbooks, computers, quality faculty) depends on said testing, you’ll do exceptionally well. However, entry exams can’t predict a student’s academic future beyond the following semester; on what grounds should they be used to determine how many resources a student should and shouldn’t receive for the next eight semesters?
We are of a culture that values the reclaiming & rediscovery of history, community reinvestment, human and civil rights & ethics, and the power & beauty of the spoken and written word. Only one of these cultural values are seen on entrance exams, yet we are the culture that pioneered Public schooling in the American South. Our culture is best suited to participation in civic life in a democracy, yet Public schools don’t allow that culture into its doors and nurture that culture once it’s inside.
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“I’m curious: If the “white” label is to be abolished, what happens to the other racial labels? Because if the “white” label was abolished while everyone else still had racial labels, wouldn’t that still be retaining a distinction between “white” and everyone else, only now “white” isn’t “white”, they’re just “people” (which then seems like it makes the “ex-white” now just “people” so anyone that isn’t white is still “not just a person”, which seems like a “white norm”!)?”
.
*************
.
mike4ty4
The OTHER labels are not the primary problem.
None of these other labels were predicated upon the inherent goodness and superiority of whiteness. None of these OTHER labels were intended to announce or suggest or reserve special treatments, benefits or privileges. Rather these other labels were accorded the distinction of being LESS THAN. Less than what?
Less than being white!
What does “less than being white” mean?
It means that those who aren’t white are NOT:
Bright
Benevolent
Pure
Pristine
Unsullied
Given the benefit of the doubt
and so on…. there are lots more!
mike4ty4,
Do you have a problem with ceasing to be white, and seeing yourself as your ethnic ancestry/nationality? Whether it be Italian, French, German, Swede, Welsh, Spanish, Irish, Polish, Russian … and referring to yourself as such – rather than calling yourself, white or Caucasian?
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“everyday white people likely wouldn’t fight at all to maintain their privilege as it’s probably not worth fighting over lol.”
**********
George,
Who were the people that participated in the New York City Draft Riots in 1863? In your estimation were they everyday (working class) WHITE people? Actually, some of them may not have been fully accepted as white people yet, but they were well on their way toward whiteness (via their collective behavior).
Yet, why did they riot and attack black people??
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@Matari: However, if those other labels are to show inferiority, then once the “white” standard by which they are judged as inferior is removed, then it would seem the other labels would naturally drop out and disappear, no? Without them used to label others as inferiority, and with no more racial oppression to struggle against, what would their point be?
As for not being referred to as white, why not? What would be the problem with that, if it would take that to solve our problems? It’s just a word used to justify genocide and oppression. Just a power and club word, really. White is a power/privilege club, not a proud culture and people (at least not in the good sense of the word “proud” — just about everyone I’ve seen who proclaims “white pride” has something against blacks, Asians, etc. and/or believes in the superiority of “white” people). Whatever cultural content it may contain doesn’t look too good: http://thisiswhiteculture.tumblr.com/
It might be a little work at first, but given the benefit to humanity, what’s wrong with doing that? Ultimately we need to get over these various forms of oppression, discrimination, war, etc. if we are to be able to realize the full potential of our species, including the dream I have had for a long time: that we may someday venture out to the stars themselves. Otherwise we’ll not be able to make the necessary effort required due to a lack of unity, we’ll turn our science to build more and more weapons and other destructive items, or otherwise use it in a poor manner (e.g. waste and pollution, for example) resulting in the extermination of our civilization and maybe even the overall biosphere at our own hands, or both. We have no idea how common or not life, much less intelligent life, is in our Universe. If this is but one of only a few places where it exists, how much greater would the tragedy be were it destroyed by our own folly! And even if it turns out not to be rare, every “tree of life” out there is unique and worthy of preservation, not destruction.
However, I’m not sure if one can get rid of the “white” label right now on an individual basis — to do so right now would seem to be to engage in “colorblind racism” given what I’ve read and studied on this topic. “I’m not white, I’m just a human” right now would amount to a denial of privilege aka colorblind racism. Do you think otherwise?
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“However, if those other labels are to show inferiority, then once the “white” standard by which they are judged as inferior is removed, then it would seem the other labels would naturally drop out and disappear, no?”
********
Let’s get specific so that miscommunication is minimized?
Would you name these other labels you’re referring to?
I don’t buy into your argument regarding inferiority. English isn’t a language that is accurately or is even remotely capable of getting at what’s wrong with Western thoughts and ideas. Racist/white supremacist tenets and beliefs are well built into the lexicon.
“”However, I’m not sure if one can get rid of the “white” label right now on an individual basis — to do so right now would seem to be to engage in “colorblind racism” given what I’ve read and studied on this topic. “I’m not white, I’m just a human” right now would amount to a denial of privilege aka colorblind racism. Do you think otherwise?””
************
I do! IF a Critical Mass of so-called WHITE people would begin to state: Yes, I know I look white but I’M NOT REALLY white. My grandparents are/were light-skinned black people, Asians, etc, etc…and begin to stop looking at life strictly through typical WHITE lens, self-identify as black, stop acting white by maintaining the unwritten rules of the white club, then whiteness in time would cease to be an attractive and privilege group. Whiteness would become less of a cohesive group that would eventual cease to exist by the sheer weight of this AWARE Critical Mass who’d refuse to be a major part, somehow, some way of what’s wrong on this planet, oppressing other people on the basis of their skin color.
What’s wrong with whiteness?
What’s wrong is laid out very well here in this piece about why the USA should at least begin talking about why reparations should be on the table. It’s long, but it’s rather informative and educational about why many things are the way they are.
People should read this… especially WHITE people.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
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Matari:
This already happens.
Where I grew up, white people were about 95% of the population. Nobody thought of themselves as “white”. Everyone identified as their European immigrant ethnicity, mostly Italian, Polish, Irish, and German.
It’s in more racially diverse areas, or places with older European settlements,where people appear more likely to self-identify as “white”.
As those of European descent become a smaller fraction of the US population, I would expect this tendency towards group identification to actually increase rather than decrease.
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“This already happens.
Where I grew up, white people were about 95% of the population. Nobody thought of themselves as “white”. Everyone identified as their European immigrant ethnicity, mostly Italian, Polish, Irish, and German.”
***********
Yet still they enjoy or benefit from their white privilege, they still maintain their white point of view (like you). They still look through white lens.
I disagree, Randy. If a Critical Mass of white people have truly abandoned being “white” then the USA would be a totally different nation on so many levels.
For one we would see less of an us against them attitude and more positive associations, partnerships, cooperation, progress and forward thinking. There would be more of a “white” outcry of “everyday” white people speaking out, even LOUDLY protesting when UNARMED blacks are murdered by those in authority and carrying a gun. The Paula Deens, Clive Bundys would be shunned out of business. Undercover (backstage) racists would be outed and driven to the front stage to be ostracized and ridiculed. There would be a huge social cost for any and all “white” persons steadfastly holding on to the old racist ways.
You might be referring to some sort of (perhaps) forward movement, but you’re not seeing the same Critical Mass outcome that I’m talking about.
Perhaps when a significant amount of white Americans want to come to the table and talk about America’s true history, the critical mass I’m referring to might be realized.
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Yep
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abagond says:
My point was that everyday White people would fight to defend their White privilege, as in the protests against school desegregation in Boston, contrary to what George thinks.
Most whites live in areas that are predominantly white. Therefore, the differences in views are differences between views of whites.
The amusing issue of school desegregation is why blacks believed — or still believe — that putting black and white students in the same classroom would lead to academic improvement among blacks.
Nothing stands in the way of any kid’s acceptance into the NY City public school Gifted Program. Plenty of black kids make the initial cut, which is made in kindergarten. But by the time they’re old enough for junior high/middle school, the academic performance of the black and Hispanic kids has dropped to the point that they don’t score well on the entrance tests.
When it’s time for high school, they get another shot at entering the top schools. However, as the test results show, few score high enough on the entrance exam to get in.
Thus, school demographics in the NY City public school system sort themselves out based on the academic performance of students. Nothing else. And the kids with the best academic performance are Asian and white. Pure merit on the part of the students. Not the outcome of some misguided or corrupt policy.
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@ sb
You missed the point. Again. It is like I am talking to a robot.
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abagond, as the results of public schools have shown — especially the results in the years following the 1968 Ocean Hill- Brownsville upheaval (Brooklyn) — nothing is gained by forcing kids of different races into the same school buildings.
If blacks, whites, Asians and Hispanics all land in the same schools because they’re more or less on the same academic plane, well, that’s the way it should be. But believing that black and Hispanic kids will derive some benefits by going to class with Asian and white kids is foolish.
In other words, the notion of white privilege is a contrivance used by people who want to dodge the true issues.
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Reblogged this on Living in Anglo-America.
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@Sondis, that’s the thing you can’t just assume all white people are alike. They do have privilege and control the outcome of all the colonialized territories: Latin America, North America, South Africa, the Pacific military bases, Australia & New Zealand. But there are a good many that can think better and if we all assume them to all be alike that’s just ammunition against us if we want to get a real discussion going.
@ Peter You forgot the derogatory term “Injun” since 2005 I’ve heard this term popping out everywhere and even towards me when I’m in all white communities though I have no Native American affiliation. “Injun” “Injun” “Injuns”
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@ sb32199
I fail to see how your argument disproves White privilege.
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@sb32199
The amusing issue of school desegregation is why blacks believed — or still believe — that putting black and white students in the same classroom would lead to academic improvement among blacks.
The crux of the Brown v. Board decision was that segregation in and of itself fostered inferiority complexes in the minds of Black children, and this sense of inferiority is disruptive to learning.
The argument today, however, is not that White classmates inspire Black students to learn, but that when you have a public school system stratified by entry exams, it denies access to academic resources to the very students who need them most. This isn’t merit, it’s condemning swaths of students to a life of failure because of a single test on only a handful of subjects taken in their early to mid-teens. I propose that entry exams in and of themselves are unethical and exist to do the work of Jim Crow in today’s America. I propose that the cult of standardized testing is stifling creativity, critical thinking, collaboration, communication, and curiosity among all students and in the classroom, skills that will be vital in the 21st century.
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@Matari:
I mean the other “racial” labels used by the other “races”: black, Asian, etc. The labels you said “were accorded the distinction of being LESS THAN [white].” With the “white standard” against which they were being called “less than” gone, what purpose would there be for their retention?
So what language should we use? And how can we hope to correct various problems in “Western thoughts and ideas” if most “Western” people don’t know the right language to even communicate them in? Should we construct an “Anti-Racist Language” to use for Anti-Racism work? A whole new artificial language with vocabulary and grammar and all that? If we use a different culturally-centered language (i.e. a different natural language which belongs to a different culture, e.g. Chinese), we might not have the “Western” baggage but we’d bring in whatever baggage accrues to that culture.
In what language do you formulate your critiques of “Western thoughts and ideas” for yourself?
Wait a minute: “self-identify as black”? If I were to do that right now, wouldn’t a lot of black people look on me as some kind of goof, a “wannabe”, a [word that looks like the N-word but has “wh” in place of the “N”] and so forth?
Also, my ancestors were from Europe, not Africa. Unless you are talking about going WAY back to when humans first migrated out of Africa. Is that what you are referring to?
Or perhaps, maybe, I have some unknown “one drop” of “black” (more recent) “in there” somewhere, but I don’t know of it. It’s possible, though. Is that what you’re referring to? But wouldn’t I need to confirm it first? Also, I’ve heard of a phenomenon that may be described as “white ethnicity-shopping” where “white” people choose some kind of ethnicity to identify as and do so while using (or by doing so, use) privilege. How does this differ? What keeps “privilege” from entering in?
Also, as I mentioned, how do you stop it from being or looking like “colorblind racism”? From what I’ve heard, “I’m not white, I’m just a human” is a thing often used for excusing racism!
Ultimately it seems we will need something like this, however — some day the “race” thing will need to be thrown in the bin where it belongs — but I’m just perplexed as to how one would go about doing it right now. This anti-racism stuff seems so full of paradoxes, like how to “stop identifying as white” without lapsing into “colorblind racism”, and so forth, to me.
And I also agree a LOT with the “stop looking strictly through the typical ‘white lens'”. That, I believe, would be a really good step. Indeed, I think for world unity we will all need to be able to look at things from lenses beyond just our own cultural or culturally-conditioned ones. It’s a good skill to have.
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Mike,
You’ve set up a series of straw-men arguments that I have no interest in.
These other labels/names that you’re talking about are NOT the engines that are fueling racism/white supremacy, and supposed white superiority. That all began around the 1600s when whites began calling themselves the name “white.” That was the cornerstone or first brick in the construction of whiteness. It is a brick that needs to be removed to deconstruct the evil of whiteness.
You’re employing a typical white tactic. Removing the main view off of whiteness and attempting to place it elsewhere. The names of others, even the offensive ones given by whites, are not the producers of racism. Collectively Coloreds, Negroes, Blacks, or Africans – and others – were never responsible for the origin (or maintenance) of conquest, oppression, mistreatment on the basis of color.
As far as identifying as black… everyone need not do so. However, if enough people do it would eventually render who IS white unreliable and thereby useless due to a critical mass of people tipping the scales and not playing that WHITENESS game anymore. If enough people who looked white said that they aren’t really white, the floor would fall away from how law-enforcement, criminal courts and other institutions conduct their racism. Stop and frisk, for example, would cease to work anymore — especially if the cops could not count on the cooperation of white-looking black people.
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@ Sondis
Hey check this out. Here’s how Chicago cops treat Chinese Salon owners (this goes the “Common Cause” discussion from earlier)
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/video-officer-threaten-deport-salon-owner-article-1.1797895
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@Matari: I wasn’t saying the other labels fueled racism, rather my initial point was because it seemed to me that if only the “white” label were gotten rid of while the others were retained, it would make “having a race” a feature of the “other” people, thereby keeping them “other” in some fashion. In other words, it didn’t seem to me to fully solve the problem because a distinction still would remain. There would still be a group having the boundaries of “white”, only now it has no name and defined by negation — namely, it’s those people who do not have a racial label. The “white group” hasn’t been truly destroyed, it’s now “The Raceless”. And that’s what I was objecting to. Is this what you mean by the “straw man”? If so, then I want to point out this was my thought on what your arguments implied, not yours. I’ll admit I may have gotten a bit off-track though going to wondering whether the labels would disappear or not from simple lack of necessity.
But I just realized now as I’m writing this that what you’re actually suggesting is to confuse the labels, not simply for the people called “white” to just stop calling themselves that. Therefore some “white” people end up as being called “black” in this approach (and other things), and therefore a defined-by-what-it-is-not “nameless group” that just happens to correspond to “white people” in the original hierarchy (and thereby maintaining the group’s existence in a negatively-defined sense) would not exist. There might be some “racially labelless” people (as you said, not everyone need identify as “black” or whatever) but they would only be a sub-set of the former “white” group (any maybe not even that — some people who were not “white” in the old order might decide to refuse their label too just to help in messing everything up once things really “get going”, so then it wouldn’t even be a subset, just overlapping), so would not really correspond to it, and thus the “white” group is truly wiped out and doesn’t even exist in a negative sense. There isn’t any need to do anything about the other labels to keep a “negatively-defined white-but-not-called-white group” from existing, rather they become the tool by which to subvert the racist structure and kill it in a really slick-trick kind of way. Whatever happens to them afterwards is irrelevant: the system is toast.
All while simultaneously getting out of the white lens and refusing to maintain the unwritten rules of the white club. So a three-pronged attack: confuse the heck out of the race system by identifying as other races, change your perspective away from the white lens, and cease maintaining the rules of the white club. A three-pronged triple-whammy against the oppression system.
And that must be what you meant by calling the grandparents “light skinned black people”, etc.
At least I hope I’ve read that correctly now and not misinterpreted it and ended up with another “straw man”.
Although, it looks like that even if no label-confusion were done and the “white” label were simply relinquished, giving up the “privilege” and “lens” in addition to that would probably still have an impact: the white group would become “raceless” but it wouldn’t act white anymore, so the negatively-defined group isn’t really the white group in disguise anymore.
As for the other issues: I thought that if white people were to start calling themselves as “black” and also deny they were “white”, then that would run into problems like “wannabe” and also coming across as color blind racism based on what I’ve read. What I’m having trouble with is trying to disentangle this contradiction: from what I’ve read, “denying you’re white” = “color-blind racism”. Yet you are saying “denying you’re white” can be a form of anti-racism. So I wasn’t sure what to do about the contradiction that seemed to exist in my mind between what I’ve read elsewhere and what it seems you are proposing.
Though now I think I see the answer to that contradiction! “Denying you’re white” is “color-blind racism” so long as you still look through the white lens and maintain the unwritten rules of the white club. But if you do not do that, then it is no longer color-blind racism but anti-racism.
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To me, this ching-chong thing is the same as people tightening the outside corners of their eyes to imitate Asians. They both mock Asians and Asian Americans, disrespecting their appearance.
I also see them mock their language and accents, even to Asians that have no accent. I see people, especially people on TV, poke fun at the way they talk by replacing certain consonants with either l-sounds or r-sounds. They also would leave out certain parts of a sentence or inject pronouns to make them sound less intelligent to produce that stereotypical Asian accent. I see it a lot in comedies. But one of most infamous examples came in the form of a rap song by 2-Live Crew Me So Horny.
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I agree that 2-Live Crew should have known better, BroWolf. But Luke was so “horny” himself, I think he was probably just turned on by the scene in “Full Metal Jacket” and decided to feature the prostitute scene in a song.
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King:
This is horrendous, i feel sad for the woman.
Keep in mind, i never said that Asian Americans never get discriminated against, therefore i needed no proof in the form of a video.
I was just saying, blacks receive more discrimination on average, than Asians.
if this woman was black, the treatment would have been, triple fold.
If the victim was a male and black, treatment would have been far worse.
He probably would have gotten killed, if not killed, beaten within an inch of his life and charges would have stuck, book thrown at him and serve several years in prison for just being black.
So quadruple fold!
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S.
Scot Nakawaga….
“And, as colorblind racism trends up, the 1% continues to be almost exclusively white, and white elites continue to dominate just about every aspect of public life and commerce in the U.S., including the media.
We can’t just wait on the world to change, regardless of what John Mayer may have to say on the matter. If we want to end racism, we need to make it visible and expose its structural and institutional dimensions and dynamics. And given the corporate domination of media, a big part of that effort will have to occur in our public squares, at the mall, and on our neighbors’ doorsteps.
In this struggle we can’t give up on white people. I know this will disappoint some more militant (or maybe just sick and tired) readers, but unless we can move more whites onto our side, we will never end racism.
With that in mind, here are four tips for talking about racism with white people.
1. Don’t fall into the good v. evil trap. Racism is a moral issue, for sure, but we should reject the idea that racists are monsters.
We racial justice advocates have a relatively easy time accepting the notion that race is not natural; that it is, instead, a political construct created to serve a profit motive. What seems tougher for us to swallow is that, for that very reason, racial prejudice can be held by anyone, regardless of race. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a very real difference between white racial prejudice and ordinary bigotry. When racial prejudice is expressed by whites, their inclusion in (or at least relative proximity to) powerful institutions gives that prejudice enough force, especially when expressed collectively, to create and maintain the deeply rooted structural racial disadvantages faced by people of color that are indicated by significant gaps in wealth and income between us and white people.
But, whites’ relative proximity to power doesn’t make them evil, just more influential. This point is important because labeling people as evil who are ordinary in every other aspect of their lives except on the question of race creates a credibility gap among their peers that gives racists more ammunition to use against us.
2. Racial justice advocates often talk about the harm that’s done to people who are excluded from institutions of power in the U.S. However, we rarely talk about the effects of inclusion in those same institutions on those on the inside.
Racially conservative whites in the U.S. have been convinced that their personal, family, and community security relies upon the exclusion of people of color. And they’ve been convinced of this not just by right wing groups like the Tea Parties and the Klan; they’ve been convinced of this by the past practices of our government.
The white middle class in the U.S. rose from the rubble of the Great Depression as a result of an economic stimulus package of programs and policies that was won by the Roosevelt administration. But winning that package of programs required cutting a deal with racially conservative Southern legislators that made Roosevelt’s stimulus racially exclusive.
That massive, mid-twentieth century government investment in white families gave white people a stake in the maintenance of white supremacy that was (and is) material, concrete, and consequential. When white people fight against busing and other efforts to integrate public schools, oppose affirmative action programs that provide access to public universities, government contracts, and public employment opportunities to people of color, they’re fighting for exclusive control of institutions and opportunities that were created either directly or indirectly through those racially exclusive government subsidies.
We need to remind people of this history. Those government programs that created the white middle class were paid for by every worker, including workers of color.
3. We can’t win the fight for racial justice by labeling all white people haters. Race is a cage that keeps all but the most powerful among us trapped in perpetual insecurity, fighting against one another for privileges rather than with one another for power. But the bars of that cage are tempered not just by privilege but by fear. When whites resist demands for full inclusion of people of color, they’re responding to that fear.
Years of divisive racial politics in the U.S. have convinced most of us, regardless of race, that there isn’t enough opportunity and institutional protection to go around. Those on the inside of institutional protection and opportunity believe that if they let those who have been excluded inside, some of them will be pushed out. White resistance to including people of color is rooted in love of family, concern for community, and the fear that including us will push those beloved families and communities out. Calling those outside undeserving is, at least in part, nothing more than a rationalization for succumbing to that fear. We need to approach the project of winning racial justice as a struggle against fear.
And that brings me to my last tip.
4. In order to win against racism, we need more than criticism of those who appear to be hoarding the goods. We need solutions that make room in our still far from complete democracy for all of us so that none of us need fear exclusion, exploitation, and the humiliation of being denied basic human dignity. And isn’t that what justice is all about anyway?”
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@Matari: You mentioned that I was “employing a typical white tactic”. This implies I may have done something Racist, in which case I apologize for any trouble. I didn’t intend it that way but from what I’ve read it doesn’t matter in these kind of cases, if it recapitulates a racial dynamic, i.e. is racist then that’s how it is. So I apologize for any trouble it may have caused you. I hope my other post was more “on track” about ‘whiteness’.
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“recapitulates a racial dynamic” (or more clearly: agrees with/embodies a racist pattern of thought)
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talofliaions writes:
The crux of the Brown v. Board decision was that segregation in and of itself fostered inferiority complexes in the minds of Black children, and this sense of inferiority is disruptive to learning.
You’re making me laugh.
The argument today, however, is not that White classmates inspire Black students to learn, but that when you have a public school system stratified by entry exams, it denies access to academic resources to the very students who need them most.
Nonsense. The public school system in NY City comprises school buildings and all the equipment, supplies, etc needed to operate. Despite what you may believe, almost all the schools are well kept.
But you can be sure there’s no demand for calculus or physics in the high schools populated mostly by poor students (black and Hispanic), and there’s virtually no demand for remedial materials at the schools populated by better students.
Frankly, stratifying kids by their general academic proficiency is the best choice for any large monopolistic bureaucracy.
This isn’t merit, it’s condemning swaths of students to a life of failure because of a single test on only a handful of subjects taken in their early to mid-teens.
Separating the wheat from the chaff begins before Kindergarten when kids seek acceptance in the Gifted Program. Once in the program, they attend the schools that offer the classes. Sometimes that means riding a bus to a different neighborhood. In the beginning the racial balance is pretty even.
By third grade the kids in the program begin separate into groupings. Their performance breaks down pretty much by race. In 5th grade they take apply to middle schools. The best middle schools require the kids to take an entrance exam.
When it comes to scores on the entrance exam, Asians and whites dominate, and it stays that way through high school.
No one is deprived of a shot and no matter what you’ve heard, teachers care. That’s not to say they’re all good. But few are awful. That’s life.
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OFF TOPIC: schooling and race.
If you want to continue, do it here:
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Actually ching chong sounds kind of like “green insect” and Luke from 2 Live Crew is also Chinese so it could be self deprecating humor. I would always ask people why they’re calling me a green insect, lol.
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@S. , I don’t know if you are Scot Nakawaga or simply copying material off his blog, which seems more like a lecture if anything, but maybe it would be good if you could explain how it links up with “Ching Chong” or otherwise with readers on this blog.
Or Maybe you have an idea how Asians and blacks can cooperate to help fix their own racial problems in US society? Or maybe discuss some more *concrete* solutions for point #4?
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@Abagond
Actually, I was wondering how this was calculated as probably 25-30% of Chinese-Americans probably do not know how to speak Chinese, esp. if they are 3rd generation or more or are mixed with other ethnic backgrounds. I even know many 2nd generation Chinese-Americans who don’t speak Chinese Or was it based on # of Chinese speakers in the US divided by # of Asian Americans?
Even then not all Chinese speakers are ethnic Chinese, or even Asian-American.
I was going over some of the numbers and got something closer to 86-87%.
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“You’re making me laugh.”—–Well, join the club because I am sure we all have been getting a heck of a laugh out of your comments since you have been posting. Your like that re*arded child that thinks he is smart.
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King, you said:
I agree that 2-Live Crew should have known better, BroWolf. But Luke was so “horny” himself, I think he was probably just turned on by the scene in “Full Metal Jacket” and decided to feature the prostitute scene in a song.
I’ve never seen “Full Metal Jacket” myself.
When I watch almost any scene on film featuring Asians, and they all talk the same way. While I admit that I honestly liked the song, the title and the chorus remind me of the stereotypical way Asians talk on film.
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@ Brothawolf
The scene depicted a Vietnamese hooker positioning two American soldiers on the street. It made sense that she was speaking in a few phrases of “broken english.” She clearly would not have had the opportunity to have learned proper english syntax. But you’re right, it does tend to sound like the typical “broken english” used in American stereotypes against Asians. However, it’s not that the scene or the way that she was speaking did not make internal sense to the plot.
However, I think the problem is that American film makers rarely feel free to show Europeans in the same light. During the war and in the aftermath of WWII prostitution, rape, and sex bartering, were at an extremely high level. Starving families were offering their young daughters to soldiers for food or a little money. But whenever a European prostitute is depicted in an American war film, she comes off like some burlesque refugee from the Moulin Rouge. They never look young, poor, hungry, and desperate… and certainly not crass or clumsy. Europeans must not be made to look soiled or debased!
If you want to know more about White on White rape and WWII prostitution the book Savage Continent by Keith Lowe has an excellent chapter on it entitled “Moral Destruction.”
It will make you wonder, why none of this ever seems to be depicted… when you could almost write your thesis on the depiction Black prostitutes and Asian war prostitutes in Hollywood films.
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However, I think the problem is that American film makers rarely feel free to show Europeans in the same light. During the war and in the aftermath of WWII prostitution, rape, and sex bartering, were at an extremely high level. Starving families were offering their young daughters to soldiers for food or a little money.
King! Thank you so much for that comment. I’ve never even had the picture in my head of what you described. It is of course obvious when one thinks about it or hears about it for the first time. Pretense of purity bothers me, particularly in the wake of severe destruction, like war.
Not to prolong the o.t. too much, but a question: does the book go into strange foods that had to be eaten because of the lack of normal food?
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“No one is deprived of a shot and no matter what you’ve heard, teachers care. That’s not to say they’re all good. But few are awful. That’s life.”
_ _ _
Hey there, Jokah! Welcome back. 😉
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@ Legion
Here is just one example from the book:
Excerpt From: Lowe, Keith. “Savage Continent, page 130”
But again, when is the last time that you have ever seen such European indignities aired out to the world on film? Yet when dealing with Asia there is no holding back.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-I5C-OtsIE)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUQsozpZUSw)
*And yes, they do deal with eating some strange stuff in the chapter on Famine.
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Pay It Forward
I am beginning to wonder if he maybe myself, but I would like to give jokah a little more credit than that. The majority of the things sb says really fall far beyond the short mark.
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But again, when is the last time that you have ever seen such European indignities aired out to the world on film? Yet when dealing with Asia there is no holding back.
Absolutely King, all true.
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@ Jefe
I said:
I stand corrected. It should be 81%.
Asian Americans were 4.8% of the US in 2010:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity
Chinese speakers were 0.91% of the US in 2009:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wki/Languages_of_the_United_States
0.91 is 19% of 4.8, leaving 81%.
I am assuming that the number of non-Asians who speak Chinese as their first language is a number equal to less than 1% of all Asian Americans or 147,000. If you think it is more than that, I would curious to know who these people are.
My wording in the post does not necessarily exclude second-language speakers, so I have corrected the post to say:
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@ King, I haven’t read the book, but as it seems to cover from 1945 afterwards, the worst aspects of cannibalism were probably those recounted by the British and US liberators of the camps.
Although the excerpt from the book about the women in Naples uses some odd language like “selling fish” and “make love”, the prevailing attitude of European womanhood during this period was that they were people. Under under siege and ravaged, but people, “ladies”, even.
The last time I saw a film depiction of a European prostitute, Violanta Placido, acting along side George Clooney in “The American”, she not only has a heart, but an intellect.
And remember Sophie Loren in “Two Women”, about a mother trying to protect her daughter from the horror of war and war rape during WW2, you got to see these people trying their best to hang onto their dignity and humanity.
The difference is striking.
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Totally agree with you Bulanik.
I think that in the movies European prostitutes almost always come across in one of two ways:
– They are either unapologetic, ahead-of-their-time liberated women who enjoy sex and get rich sleeping with handsome and powerful men.
– They are portrayed tragically in a way so it is possible to sense the woman behind the prostitute mask or persona.
With Asian prostitutes, they usually come across as crass, unsophisticated, with an air of desperation or maybe greed. I’m not saying that no western prostitute has EVER been shown in this light, but rather, that the trend is to humanize westerners and dehumanize non-westerners.
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King, another feature of this trend is to show the frequency in Asia AND Asian’s seeming predilection for children in its sex industries. And as it is in the documentary format (Thailand, India, Cambodia), the authority of it is just as disturbing as the subject matter.
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Correctin: Asians’
When it’s shown as “anthropology” rather than fictionalised entertainment, the horror of the viewer is also directed at the culture.
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It’s remarkable that so many readers feel that feature movies should be viewed as though they’re honest, objective documentaries.
Hollywood, and every other place that exists to create entertainment, is motivated by money. Not altruism. Not truth. Just buckeroos, because making movies is expensive. That means movie-makers have to give the customers what they want. If it appears viewers want movies that depict character-types in certain ways, then viewers will get their wish.
Since viewers vote at the box office, there are few, if any, feature movies in which a female lead is a prostitute. That kind of character is usually a stock figure. A supporting role. Not a leading role. Whichever stock-type fits into the plot to is the one that appears.
Sometimes a female character who is intelligent, sophisticated, educated and confident will fearlessly enter into a sexual encounter with a leading male. Often, that female character will come to a violent end.
But it’s all for entertainment. And it’s all done for money.
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SMH.
The industry, as a money making INDUSTRY, has been discussed in that context many times over the years on this blog.
King and others, have often discussed the effects of media imagery, and believe or not, readers are quite aware of the differences…
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Sb32199
There are two things going on in Hollywood. One thing is moneymaking and the other thing is propaganda. That much should be obvious, because it makes perfect sense. Producers make money, but they make it by moving the needle on their own agendas. Sometimes they even lose money to make films that push a social or political point. The idea that making money is the ONLY thing that Hollywood is in it for is false.
As for race and cinema, it’s clear that certain popular and repeated portrayals “create” a kind if reality for many people. It is not necessary for a viewer to accept a dramatized character, or scripted scenario, as realistic at the time of viewing. However, in the absence of more direct exposure, the fiction will subconsciously become reality. I may not have ever been on a real battlefield, yet I have seen many battles via movies and television. Because I have nothing else to measure against, I am more likely to believe the depictions of TV battles that I have see, even though I know intellectually that they are not authentic.
In the same way, a person exposed to racial stereotypes is more likely than not to eventually begin to believe them, given enough time and repetition, and in the absence of more positive real life refutations.
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Good point Bulanik. And there always seem to be plenty of westerners participating in the child sex industry in Asia as well.
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sb said:
It’s remarkable that so many readers feel that feature movies should be viewed as though they’re honest, objective documentaries.
Wow! You get the Lame Reach Award of 2014.
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I don’t like that pejorative term ching chong. As a child, I remember all too well white children saying this to me as well as other slurs in a sing song-y voice complete with the eye pulling gestures. I recall, “Ching chong, king kong, rama lama ding dong.” I always wondered where these children learned all this from.
After school one day, I passed by a white classmate who was picked up by his dad. I heard from this man muttering under his breath, “Ching chong, ching ching, ching chong.” Instantly, I knew these kids were taught by their parents.
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leigh204:
“After school one day, I passed by a white classmate who was picked up by his dad. I heard from this man muttering under his breath, “Ching chong, ching ching, ching chong.” Instantly, I knew these kids were taught by their parents.”
Why of coarse, was any doubt of the source? The source of white children in America in 2014, saying the “N” word, are their parents.
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Apparently now, the use of “Ching Chong” in public can get you fired.
http://www.eater.com/2014/10/30/7133121/atlanta-fox-bros-bar-b-q-fires-employee-racial-slurs
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Wow, even National Presidents use Mock Chinese in Spanish when visiting top leaders in China.
Argentine President Mocks Chinese Accent On Twitter
Argentine President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner mocked a Chinese accent in a tweet while on an official visit to Beijing on Wednesday.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/stephaniemcneal/argentine-president-mocks-chinese-accent-on-twitter#.aiBbx07Ko
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There is a new television show Fresh Off The Boat about an Asian family trying to make it in America. I watched this tonight and i thought it was very offensive. I can’t understand why they would let this air. As a black American i was offended watching this. I didn’t think it was funny.
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In that new sitcom Fresh Off The Boat in tonight’s episode the c-word is uttered by one of the characters and it shows how that is dealt with. I really don’t care for the show. But it will be interesting to see how other Asian Americans feel about it.
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I couldn’t find the whole video with Rosie O’Donnell saying Ching Chong, but I did find this short clip.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbwPu_LuTZs)
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@ Mary Burrell:
I missed it? Darn it! I wanted to know what it was all about since I’ve been reading mostly positive comments about the show within the Asian community where I’m from.
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This was a very self important, virtue signaling article.
Humor is in everything. Do you think Americans or Europeans don’t get made fun of by Asians- for how they talk, look, act? Do I care or take offense? No. Are people like me apathetic? No. There are bigger things to worry about than being perpetually offended on someone else’s behalf over trivial matters, like words.
Stop identifying as a group and start identifying as an individual. A group can be made of and it can be easily dismissed. An individual who is made fun of has the right to choose to be offended or not.
Should I be offended when Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock alter their voice and make fun of stereotypical white folks? No. First, is refreshing to hear black people speak correctly. Second, it’s a joke. Third, I’d be getting offended on behalf of my race and that’s stupid. Like Sondis seems to be.
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