Remarks:
Despite the lyrics, this song was played on American radio in 1971 and went to number one on the pop charts. It went to #2 in their native Britain. It is now a rock classic. Both Marsha Hunt and Claudia Lennear claim Mick Jagger wrote the song with them in mind. He says he would never write anything that “raw” now and tones down the lyrics when performing it live.
I am not in the habit of doing full-blown posts on songs, but I thought this was a good time to throw this song out there for comment, in the wake of Lupita Nyong’o’s Oscar win. She won for the film “12 Years a Slave” (2013), a true story where she plays Patsey, a slave woman who was raped – not far from the time and place of this song:
Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields,
Sold in a market down in New Orleans.
Scarred old slaver know he’s doin alright.
Hear him whip the women just around midnight.Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good
(a-ha) brown sugar, just like a young girl should
A-huh.
See below for the complete lyrics.
Like most people, I did not really listen to the lyrics. With rock songs I mainly listen to the guitar (Keith Richards, in this case). At that level it is a good song and that is presumably what drove it to number one. For added value, it also works as a dance song.
But even half hearing the lyrics I gathered that Mick Jagger thinks Black women are a) desirable, b) easy and c) good dancers. The last two are stereotypes. The first one is good in a culture that constantly puts down Black women, but when you put it with the second one, it amounts to the Jezebel stereotype. Not so good.
And, for anyone who heard all the lyrics, it is even worse, making light of slavery, of rape, the rape of Black slave women in particular, complete with whips. In America in the 1970s, music, television, film, magazines and newspapers (but not books) were all censored, which means that the powers that be saw nothing wrong with it and let it enter the White American cultural bloodstream, where it remains to this day.
Some will excuse the song because Mick Jagger, a white man, dates black women. So he cannot possibly be racist or have ill intent. Probably not ill intent, as far as I can tell, but the song is still racist regardless of how he “meant” it.
See also:
- songs: the 1970s
- David Bowie: China Girl
- The Jezebel stereotype
- “Some of my best friends are black”
- 12 Years a Slave – my post on the book, not the film
- Toure on sexually heroic slave women
- Tribal nudity in National Geographic
- The whiteness of Laura Ingalls Wilder
- Django Unchained
- Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs
Lyrics:
Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields,
Sold in a market down in New Orleans.
Scarred old slaver know he’s doin alright.
Hear him whip the women just around midnight.
Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good
(a-ha) brown sugar, just like a young girl should
A-huh.
Drums beating, cold English blood runs hot,
Lady of the house wondrin where it’s gonna stop.
House boy knows that he’s doin alright.
You should a heard him just around midnight.
Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good
(a-ha) brown sugar, just like a black girl should
A-huh.
I bet your mama was a tent show queen, and all her boy
Friends were sweet sixteen.
I’m no schoolboy but I know what I like,
You should have heard me just around midnight.
Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good
(a-ha) brown sugar, just like a young girl should.
I said yeah, I said yeah, I said yeah, I said
Oh just like a, just like a black girl should.
I said yeah, I said yeah, I said yeah, I said
Oh just like, just like a black girl should.
Disgusting! @>: o O ) >
LikeLike
WTF? This song is so horrendously disgusting there aren’t enough negative words to describe it. I’ve always hated these assholes and now I also loathe them.
LikeLike
Whoa! I never really listened to all the words. Those have to be some of the most brazen lyrics written.
LikeLike
Good Lord, I’ve never bothered to really listen to the lyrics….only caught the “Brown Sugar” so called anthem; to think I danced to this…FACEPALM!
LikeLike
Good Post
LikeLike
House boy knows that he’s doin alright.
You should a heard him just around midnight.
What is the houseboy doing at midnight? Is Jagger just rhyming here?
^ Serious question.
LikeLike
@ Jefe
It’s not a good post at all. It has no context. The post relies on shock just as the Stones did when they wrote this silly tune.
LikeLike
I think it is not just for shock value. It does have *some* context as we know who wrote it, who performed it and when it occurred and how popular it was.
I don’t need to have all posts have deep, well thought out content. Maybe we could use another back-up post that provides more background and more analysis of the meaning and intent of this song. That might be interesting. Or maybe you think is just has shock value and we have no need to analyze it?
Maybe I should repost, not to say “good post” but to thank Abagond for posting it even though there is not much thought into it, simply for reminding us about this song.
LikeLike
Kiwi,
I do not agree with the blog post that you referenced. Yes, it does have racist content, but I don’t think it is inciting current racial hatred, or denying some prior racial injustice. I see it more like a poem about what happened 200 years ago from someone’s particular viewpoint and it should be kept in that context.
For example, I didn’t see Laura Ingalls Wilder’s account of “indians” to be something that we should ban or anything. I think it should be put into proper context, as coming from a certain point of view, and it should not be presented in primary and secondary schools as a wholesome book about a young heroine.
Likewise, I do not think that Brown Sugar should be promoted as something that glorifies black slave rape. But, I am not sure we should 100% ban it either any more than we should ban Malcolm X’s writings.
LikeLike
This is disturbing. Ugh.
LikeLike
very revealing
I remember that song and how when I was younger, thought it was a compliment towards “brown sugar” people
because I didn’t listen to the words.
if we (black people) really started paying attention to the WORDS written about us by white people (lines said by black characters in movies and songs about us)
maybe we would get out of denial about who and what we are dealing with
unfortunately, just like the recent (and former) black academy awards winners, we are so thrilled to get ANY attention from whites that we take almost every bit of attention as a compliment.
LikeLike
The Beatles were always better anyway.
LikeLike
I like the Stones but this is not one of my favorite Stones tunes, they have lots of other better songs, why this one was chosen is beyond me.
LikeLike
WTF?
I have played this song in pub bands. I never knew, or even wondered about, the words as I don’t sing it. I generally assumed there wasn’t much actual meaning in Stones lyrics – I’m not really a fan.
That’s embarrassing. This one is out of the repertoire.
LikeLike
“Houseboy” most probably is the son of the aforementioned “lady of the house”, and most probably could be found in a slave cabin raping one of the black girls sometime around midnight.
LikeLike
Their version of ‘Red Rooster’ sucked too. Years ago I had a record of Howlin’ Wolf playing some sessions in London and trying to teach the English boys how to pick the guitar riff for ‘Red Rooster’. They didn’t get it.
The Stones version was weak.
LikeLike
“Houseboy”.
From Wiki:
LikeLike
Rock and roll , in general , is an abherated white version of black American music , and a present day minstel show ..its a really low bar of music , actualy on the leval of 16 year olds playing top grade equipment their parents brought them , to play together in a garage
A huge amount of white kids playing rock, think its the music invented by their white idols , and the white artists who did copy black origins, do it in the most patronising of ways , passing on the much more challeging jazz music, to do their impersonations of what they think black people sound like and act…explaining the mock ebonic dialects you hear them strut out, a d in the case of the stones lead singer , the strangest assortment of body moves that are supposed to aproximate black dance, but fails miserably ..this is an extenstion of this minstel ethic , of white people showing their impresion of how they think black people act…its demeaning
Some of these icons were given god status , and called genius , while at the same time they made millions , some very profound black American musicians were innovating music that will be studied in depth for the next hundred years
I dont like the stones, the beatles , I dont like this cut, I dont like rock
LikeLike
Legion, in my opinion, the house guy knows what the master is doing, and he , the singer ,then refers to the msster about mídnight…that is what I get from it
The rock world was racist, just new outlooks, they called black men spades , and there was no real acceptance or understanding..real black culture in the mid sixties had very little to do with white rock
Ive talked about the afro diasporic use of all fulcrums of the body, white rock, which is a white abheration , can only get the neck fulcrum going in their rock head banger ethic…or the jive bruce springsteen two step that millions of stiff whites latched onto when they saw his video doing it…
LikeLike
@ Jefe
I am not in the habit of doing full-blown posts on songs, but I went back and fleshed this one out a bit more. See above.
LikeLike
No offense but I do think the term “houseboy” was used with creative license in the song, especially as it followed up the term }lady of the house”, which definitely is NOT a term for a servant but rather the wife of “the man of the house”. ‘Boy of the house’ is rather clumsy and can certainly be contracted to simply “houseboy” for a turn of phrase.
As well, I sincerely doubt its use in this particular song is to be taken as one servant or slave has freedom to go stupping, at will, other servants and slaves, while leaving the “lady of the house” wondering “where it’s gonna stop” (’cause where it’s gonna stop is the exact spot where his upstart kister lands when she kicks it out of her property … randy sons — “cold English blood runs hot” hint-hint, however, don’t typically get kicked out for making sexual use of servants and slaves).
“[…] cold English blood runs hot,
Lady of the house wondrin where it’s gonna stop.
House boy knows that he’s doin alright.
You should a heard him just around midnight.”
LikeLike
Agree with much of BR’s comment. It grew from English kids learning a few basic riffs from American blues recordings and then playing them very loud through the new amplifiers that were being created by engineers who learned how to make things with vacuum tubes while in the military in WWII. It’s purely a function of technology and historical accident. These English kids then came to the US with their very loud music and, since most white people in the US knew nothing of black blues music, the scales and chords were unfamiliar to them.
That said, having grown up in a small midwestern town in the 1970’s, rock is part of my youth, part of my dna, and I can’t help but like it. I like the fat, saturated guitar tones, the sheer hubris. I like a lot of rap music for the same reason. The proletarian/rebelious aspect.
Specific as to this cut, I think many of the posters are giving Jagger way too much credit in terms of imputing meaning to his words. Jagger was a spoiled rich kid who discovered fame by playing the bad boy. He intended this song to be shocking and offensive and it worked. The song is offensive, which is precisely why it’s iconic. The provocative offensiveness is part and parcel of what the Rolling Stones were about.
It doesn’t matter whether Jagger’s intent was ironic, or satirical, or even just a way of being a potty mouth and getting paid for it. I think it was a blend of all three, though even that may be giving him too much credit. After all, in that time frame, Jagger was probably too wasted most of the time to even know which he intended.
I personally find Robin Thicke’s “Blurred Lines” way more offensive, in part because I don’t believe it is delivered with even a trace of irony, and in part because of the blatant thievery from the great Marvin Gaye.
LikeLike
I never heard of this song, and after hearing about this one, I’m glad I didn’t. Although, it’s good to take it apart and dissect it word by word, lyric by lyric.
LikeLike
A lot of us like music which very clearly has its origins in African, African American, Caribbean and Asian cultures. There are plenty of opportunist, rip-off philistines who see it as a commodity to be sanitised, packaged and sold on. Personally I would put Led Zeppelin and the Stones in that category. Credit was not always given where due, and the resulting efforts were often travesties with added smoke and mirrors in place of authenticity and heart.
Clapton maybe just escapes this, but if so it is a narrow escape. There’s no question that he put in the study, but his documented, drunken racist rant of some years ago undermines any claim he might have once made to genuine respect and regard for the source music and the people from whom he heard it.
Some white people approach music with more honourable intentions. Again, my outlook is a little provincial and limited, as the UK is the only empirical context I have, but sticking my neck out I would put Bonnie Raitt in the real-deal camp. Her genuine respect and love of both blue music and of the musicians who played it shines out pretty brightly. She absolutely worshipped the late John Lee Hooker – which is understandable. The man was ALL about feel and groove.
In the 1960s, when white boy pop and rock bands were ripping off the blues, there were other musicians who didn’t copy the music that black people played, they learned it and lived it. Jazz was probably the main arena for that side of things, but also in lighter genres we had mixed bands such as The Equals – half the band were black guys and half were white guys – who not only played each others music, but whose whole concept (as reflected in the name) was equality and respect.
Later, punk bands like The Clash and Stiff Little Fingers took a lot of inspiration from ska, rocksteady and reggae music. In the case of The Clash, Joe Strummer and his mates identified with the alienation suffered by the London black community and allied themselves with that community. The black British musician and film maker Don Letts has spent much of his career documenting this aspect of punk music.
The cover versions that emerged from this era were certainly not authentic or skilled interpretations of source material but, for example, The Clash’s recording of the late Junior Murvin’s ‘Police and Thieves’ was genuine, sincere homage – no minstrel insult.
Many of the British ska revival bands also embraced their influences and played from the heart. They were actively and vocally anti-racist. The Specials (Or The Special AKA) were another muti-racial band who put out recordings such as “Racist Friend”.
For my part, blues, reggae and ska, and Motown and Stax soul are genres I grew up listening to. I love them and the people who made the records. I play that music myself. My abilities are limited, so I don’t do it justice, but there is no parody, no minstrel aspect, no disrespect. I just play stuff I love to play, and a lot of it is music given to us by black people. I don’t try to copy accents – I sure as hell don’t try to dance with my three left feet. I will not sing a lyric containing racist language. I had to tweak a CeeLo Green song to remove the N word. It kind of ruins the song, as it seems to me that CeeLo was lampooning Kanye West, but it is not appropriate for me to even try it. All a white audience would hear – and laugh at – would be a song with the N word in it. It’s a shame, it’s a funny song about a guy who gets dumped because he has no money.
If white people couldn’t play black music I’d be f*cked. There sure as hell isn’t a lot left if you take all that away.
There is some good, even in rock and pop music, when it is done with sincerity and honourable intentions. It’s not all about technical stuff – or even tradition. Sure, those are important, but sometimes people just want to party.
LikeLike
I’ve never listened to this song, I’ve heard about it on here and other forums but never looked it up. This is disgusting, and disrespectful. I looked up lyrics from other websites and apparently when they perform they change some of the lyrics.
“aw, get down on your knees
brown sugar
how come you dance so good?
aw, get down on the ground
brown sugar
just like a young girl should”
ugh, I can’t even..
“I bet your mama was a tent show queen, and all her boy
Friends were sweet sixteen.
Im no schoolboy but I know what I like,
You should have heard me just around midnight.”
really. this song is some pedophile sh@t.
I watched the blues thing at the white house on tv last year and mick jagger was on there bouncing around, I didn’t really care for his performance, but Gary clark jr killed it.
LikeLike
I think the song should be considered and judged by the moral standards of the era in which it was written.
One can certainly understand the perspective of blacks today towards the song lyrics. It is interesting though to consider the white perspective at the time the song hit the airwaves. The song was about a married white man having sex with a black woman with his wife’s knowledge. It was about the cacophony of sex occurring between whites and blacks, just around midnight. In 1971 this must have been an incredibly audacious thing to play on the airwaves to a white society that still was in the throws of desegregation especially when you consider the taboo nature of white/black sex at the time. I mean, there were laws against it. Laws against it. And the Stones release a song about hot, lusty consensual sex between whites and blacks. I’ve even wondered if the song implied that the houseboy and the slavemasters wife were getting it on.
The Stones couldn’t have been more offensive and had their song allowed on the air. The song may have offend blacks today, but it was meant to offend older whites in 1971.
LikeLike
they were telling like it t i – is….
LikeLike
@ jefe
I don’t need to have all posts have deep, well thought out content.
You don’t have to exaggerate. The post came off as prurient without the context, glad to see he’s added some useful context now. I wasn’t asking for anything “deep”.
LikeLike
Thanks buddhuu, and also, no offence from me either but I’d say Pay it Forward has it right, particularly in her follow up comment. Thanks guys.
————————————
• It’s pretty amazing: the wiki entry on this song does not mention rape as a subject of the song. Amazing, because rape/sex property is the main subject of the song.
• The song didn’t have to be racist. It might have been that Jagger wrote the song from the p.o.v. of a degenerate sick slaver, who of course, during that particular epoch was not altogether recognized as degenerate and sick. Unfortunately, Jagger seems to have taken a less than brave position and speaks about the song as a mish mash of raw things. I’m not seeing any art or any integrity behind this tune.
Musical version of that black woman chair?
LikeLike
art? integrity?
I’m missing the context again.
After all, in that time frame, Jagger was probably too wasted most of the time to even know which he intended.
LikeLike
As a guy dating black women at that time, it sounded very crass and heavy handed, which rock is, to me…exactly the white attitude towards black women many people object to on here, and , I would too…
After someone innovates, its all copying by everyone…its what you do with it…does a person do a chumpy version or really capture the essence ?…if a person doesnt understand the dance that was meant to go with the beats, chances are, they wont really get it, how its supposed to swing. I mean if you are going to play James Brown, you better understand the funk..
There was so much great music to chose from in the late 60’s and early 70’s…if a musician missed Herbie Hancock and Chameleon, you just missed it..that was the ground breaking record of the early 70′..Sly on that record , during the sax solo ,is like getting a window seat , looking in on some celophane into what the black Afro diasporic genius and principles are..
I am very blessed, my real white priviledge was being raised next to a large black community and being accepted into it..basicly because I gave big respect..that is how I would socialise at black parties and dance all the wonderful dances back then, we had, to music like Smokey Robinson, Martha and the Vandelas, Fontela Bass, Bumpin on Sunset by Wes, Ti MonBo (very important), by Tito Puentes, as well as James Brown, and I would play in all black bands or integreted bands doing this material..and it was real people with names , not “black freinds”…Fred Hunter got me into black bands backing singers that we would go to the South and West sides to play , which I later would go back with Maulawi, Ahmed Jamals brother in law, to the West and Sout side of Chicago to play serious jazz…Stones and Beatles and Bob Dylan really looked chumpy compared to those experiances…Clash? Please…Playing with Minnie Ripperton, she had just recorded Perfect Angle that Stevie Wonder had produced…We did the cut by Leon Ware, and he was there, “If You Ever Lose this Heavon” that she had recorded with Quincy Jones, that was much hipper than the Average White Bands version…with Bruce Fischer, writer of “Going Around in Circles” with Billy Preston…and I worked with Bruce in Chicago once, just to show you that I was around some heavy high leval talent and that is why I didnt like the Stones and rock..Odel Brown was th music director and he went on to co write “Sexual Healing” with Marvin Gaye and become his music director..I had worked with him in Chicago with the “Organizers”…when we reheased at SIR, Earth Wind and Fire were next door, we went and checked them out and Philip Baily sat in with us on a Wayne shorter song just to jam…Maurice White knew Maulawi, and he was a jazz drummer who played with Ramsey Lewis, who I saw in 67, and Cleavland Eaton was on bass who I would later play with…Louis Satisfeild was on Trombone and he sat in on bass with the Organisers when i was there, and he was on the Electric Mud record, along with Pete Cosey, who later went with Miles, who I played with in the George Hunter big band..who got on the mic in a giant gang fight I at a job we did and was saying “brothers , brothers, we dont need this violence” as all mayhem was breaking out around him..what a sight
Seriously, rock sounds chumpy compared to this…why didnt the rest of the world latch onto James Brown? Instead of the Beatles and Stones? Fontela Bass?
Can anyone hum a Wayne Shorter tune? The guy was writing the heaviest music in his Blue Note years in the mid 60’s , “Fall”, “Fi Fi Fo Fum”, “Juju”, “Wild Flower” “Witch hunt”…all gogeous songs, hummable and swing like crazy
Rock is chumpy next to that…
LikeLike
For me, musicians who came up in the late fifties, sixties and seventies, who didnt plug into the more challenging high leval pure swing of jazz, not intellectal jazz, just never challenged themselves, the ones who did, who played other styles, played better than the ones who didnt take that challenge..the music was out there, they just made their choices..
In fact, Charlie Watts considers himself a jazz drummer…they used to use Daryl Jones on bass, who was with MIles…Rocky , who was from Ghana, and played congas with Minnie Ripperton when I was there, played with the Stones and he is a good musician….but, if you are stuck in an idiom that is basicly heavy handed, one of the more heavy handed Afro diasporic cultures ever, and if a guy who plays rock , never gets his chops up and learn to think quick like you have to in be bop, you can tell in the first 16 bars if he is a sluggish player or not, whether he can make his time arch like the tension in a bowshooting an arrow , or not
Some of the best funk bass players I played with , played up bebop…Marcus Miller is the best example, easily the best funk bass player anywhere..I played funk with him in Walter Bishop Jr’s band, and we did both funk and up bebop, which he can kill…it makes a differance in how someone plays
I cant just give it up to a punk band or rock band , when they cant really play their instruments very well..the sound is just grating to me…and i wish they would learn some slicker harmony..and quite frankly, this heavy handedness can come from a mentality that would write something like the lyrics we see here…just falling way short of the real awareness of the people they are copying
and there is just this bad imitation of black music…I can give it up to Bonnie Rait, Stevie Ray Vaughn, and, I dug Tom Jones more than the Stones, its not really whether its from Britain or not, there are high leval players from England , too, Victor Feldman was incredible, John Mcglauclan with Zakir Hussein made some of the most challenging music anywhere..he plays up bop too…Dave Holland…but, if people cant find out who the real players and heavy people playing the musics are and were, those wonderful talents just get lost in the shuffle, and only a few people can hum a Wayne Shorter song…they are just missing it
but, and the Americans did this too and first, the immitation of what they think black people sound like and act like, is just staggering..cmon…and they miss what the essence of what black innovators are really doing..what is the real high leval …the essences of the Afro diasporic culture…they abuse it, abherete it..sorry but any heavy handed rock is an abheration of the original beat…which actualy comes from some slick boogy woogie…8 to the bar…it starts to get over arranged and the feeling is taken right out of it, the snap and buoncy and soul
you get it or you dont..if you get it, its very apherant real fast..if you dont, you get stuck in it and never grow…my gosh there is some monster clave and samba south of the border that is slamming also…but, most rockers cant touch those grooves…because they are doing bad copies..to play the heavy grooves is when you get down to the nitty gritty and have to play them , aggressivly, with chops and cross rhythm awareness and groove awareness..you dont copy then, you hold down your part and hold hands with your partners in the middle of a huge storm…that isnt copying..that is how you get it, how to really play the grooves..
LikeLike
I knew Mick Jagger liked black women, but i have been hearing this song for years, never knew they words, I have to say they are pretty disgusting, but as i said upthread, i never cared for this song. I do like the Stones but this is pretty disgusting.
LikeLike
*the words* ^^^^
LikeLike
WTF? This song is so horrendously disgusting there aren’t enough negative words to describe it. I’ve always hated these assholes and now I also loathe them.
Ditto. That Mike Jagger has to be one of the ugliest white men in captivity. Plus, his singing is atrocious.
LikeLike
^ lol I thought I was the only one that thought that, the only thing that I think sounds good about mick jagger is his name, everything else nope.
LikeLike
@buddhuu: Thanks for your commentary, I do love the Clash, I noticed lots of their music sounds political and rebellious. Again thanks for the insightful commentary.
LikeLike
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=muffets&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=muffets&sc=5-0&sp=-1&sk=&id=59190E5A126E23AB0F1035B79DE65328ED7985EC&selectedIndex=15#view=detail&id=59190E5A126E23AB0F1035B79DE65328ED7985EC&selectedIndex=0
LikeLike
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mick+jagger&FORM=HDRSC2#view=detail&id=4BD13856AFD8585C63E9869A8CE045A1745BBB88&selectedIndex=2
LikeLiked by 1 person
Mick Jagger is a degenerate. Why is that surprising? He was imitating black musicians who were notoriously degenerate. Of course, he was already a degenerate by nature or he wouldn’t have been attracted to degenerate music in the first place.
LikeLike
compare the two pics. rofl.
LikeLike
“That Mike Jagger has to be one of the ugliest white men in captivity. Plus, his singing is atrocious.”
He is definitely one ugly rascal.
LikeLike
@B.R.
“For me, musicians who came up in the late fifties, sixties and seventies, who didnt plug into the more challenging high leval pure swing of jazz, not intellectal jazz, just never challenged themselves, the ones who did, who played other styles, played better than the ones who didnt take that challenge..the music was out there, they just made their choices..”
I suppose Jazz is a perfect example of something that is more fun to do/play than to watch or listen to (at least for the general music buying demographic). Baseball is like that for me. I’d much rather play baseball than watch it.
To each his own though, right. Or as Sly said, different strokes for different folks.
LikeLike
Mick Jagger is a degenerate. Why is that surprising? He was imitating black musicians who were notoriously degenerate. Of course, he was already a degenerate by nature or he wouldn’t have been attracted to degenerate music in the first place.
Of course. Blame the black man as usual, Jokah. SMH
LikeLike
brothawolf
If you go back to the 30s, 40s and 50s you’ll find black musicians openly singing about sex and drugs when it was socially unacceptable to do so. You won’t find many white musicians doing that until later on. And then mostly among those imitating blacks.
LikeLike
Abagond, first of all let me say that I love your blog!!! I’m usually a lurker on your blog, but i had to post a comment for this one. I never knew how disturbing that song was. But Abagond, we have too many problems at home that need to be addressed rather than worrying about a song written by a white man nearly 40 years ago!!! I know you’ve probably written a post about it somewhere on this blog, but NOW (as in 1990’s- present day) the problem is no longer white men writing sexist lyrics about black women. As of 2014, the problem is BLACK MEN writing sexist, misogynistic, colorist lyrics primarily aimed at black women. In my opinion, that’s the problem!!! Compare the lyrics of the Rolling Stone’s song “Brown Sugar” to these more recent songs: http://therapup.net/2009/04/11-rap-songs-to-disrespect-women-to/
I’m telling you, by the look of many of these demeaning rap song lyrics AND videos, a person might think that some black men are white supremacist in black face!!! So, while I appreciate you pointing out the degradation in that particular song by the Rolling Stones, please don’t overlook the more current and prevelant problem of black men either making music that denigrates black women or buying and listening to music that denigrates black women. To me, that’s the real problem as of March 2014.
LikeLike
“degenerate music”
_ _ _
Come on now, I’m sure you can do better than that.
LikeLike
@Natalie
As of 2014, the problem is BLACK MEN writing sexist, misogynistic, colorist lyrics primarily aimed at black women. In my opinion, that’s the problem!!!
Perhaps you were being concise. That’s the only problem?
Also, aren’t you being dramatic? Rap artists are out to make a buck, they are not representatives of Black men, so, I don’t know about this “black men writing blah, blah lyrics” thing.
LikeLike
Re: Jagger ugly?
It hasn’t held him back one bit.
LikeLike
Legion said:
No problem. You and Pay it Forward are probably right, Legion. I’d not encountered the term before. The Wiki definition seemed possible to me if one interprets the lyric as suggestive of the lady of the house taking advantage of an African “houseboy” slave or servant. Like I say, though, I don’t know the term. I was guessing.
mary burrell said:
You’re welcome, Mary, and thanks for the kind words.
I was 17 when the Clash exploded onto the scene. I cannot overstate the impact they had on me. Joe Strummer was a role model to me. His brother was a disurbed guy who embraced far-right politics and eventually took his own life. Joe went totally the other way. He was a prominent activist in Rock Against Racism. He was a huge fan of black Jamaican music. One of his songs ‘White Man in Hammersmith Palais’ describes a reggae show he went to in London where he was disappointed to hear mostly commercial material rather than the authentic roots reggae he’d hoped for. The song then goes into political rant mode with an appeal for black and white British youth to reject the fake crap that surrounds them and seek a common solution. He expresses the disgusted opinion that people at the time were so fickle and superficial that they might even welcome Hitler, had he flown in on a plane.
In ‘White Riot’ Strummer lamented the fact that white people lacked the courage and motivation to take to the streets in the way London’s alienated black communities did. He was the real thing – when even most punk musicians were really all about the money and the fame.
That stuff hit me hard. Punk music was a catalyst for my political awakening.
I take B.R.’s point about musical proficiency, but there are other dimensions. The Clash were masters of one of those dimensions. A very real, relevant, important dimension.
On the other hand, IMO, The Stones (with the possible exception of Keith) were always about the money and fame. I prefer to party to something with a message.
LikeLike
Buddhuu, that’s an interesting take on the lyrics which I had not considered. I’m not so sure, though, that a “lady of the house” would’ve had a young, virile, black male as a house servant or “houseboy” (notice too that “house boy” are separate words in the lyrics as written in the blog article) — maybe an elderly black butler, but not so much a young adult male, though it is entirely possible.
Also, this song seems to be from a white male perspective, and has as its refrain “Ah brown sugar how come you taste so good / (a-ha) brown sugar, just like A BLACK GIRL should [emphasis mine]”. There’s no direct mention of — or even allusion to –“black boys” / black male slaves or servants anywhere else in the song; a song entitled “Brown Sugar” (AKA the objectification of Black WOMEN in white male sexual fantasies).
LikeLike
Photos of the young Mick Jagger show him, to my mind, as having an interesting non-cookie cutter face for a white guy, i.e, very full lips; a roundish nose; wide, mischievous eyes. As to physique, he’s always been a bit on the thin & wiry side, but as a young man, to me anyway, he was facially unique and attractive as well.
LikeLike
If you go back to the 30s, 40s and 50s you’ll find black musicians openly singing about sex and drugs when it was socially unacceptable to do so. You won’t find many white musicians doing that until later on. And then mostly among those imitating blacks.
Yeah, yeah yeah. We heard it all before Jokah, black people are the worst and blah, blah, blah. Black musicians corrupted the innocent white man, and blah, blah, blah.
Do us all a favor and sing a different tune, man. lol
Natalie, I admit there are misogynistic rap songs by black rappers. But maybe you should take a look at other forms of music by non-rappers and you will see misogyny in there too.
LikeLike
@ Natalie
I agree that some rap songs and videos are just as bad if not worse. I have written about it under posts about gangsta rap and video vixens.
LikeLike
@ B.R.
Excellent comments! Thank you. I did not know that Mick Jagger was trying dance black. I thought that was just his own style. I kind of suspected there was another level to this song, in the music itself, not the lyrics, but had no way to put it in words.
LikeLike
gross…
LikeLike
I think, as with a lot of things that the audience matters a great deal. The Rolling Stones, for example closed the 1964 TAMI show by going after James Brown had just performed. IMO most fair minded people, would admit that Brown was a much more dynamic entertainer than Jagger. But I suppose if you were say a white woman like Patti Smith, you might feel differently.
“Patti Smith, in the pages of Creem magazine (where she was a contributor), recalled the sensation years later:”
“The singer was showing his second layer of skin and more than a little milk,” she wrote. “Five white boys sexy as any spade . . . Blind love for my father was the first thing I sacrificed to Mick Jagger . . . masculinity was no longer measured on the football field.” At the time, Smith was a closet rebel teen from Jersey, a good Catholic girl. The T.A.M.I. Show performance presented options.”
“Jagger” by Marc Spitz.
The Rolling Stones and most of the other British invasion groups were successful by playing to audiences that were (because of race among other things) more positively inclined to them than to the black musicians that they were copying. So “Brown Sugar” can be a hit because most of the anticipated audience is assumed to be white (or at least non-black) and thus not likely to take offense. They also returned to racialized stereotypes in “Some Girls” which has the line about black girls just wanting to [have sex] all night..
LikeLike
@ Shady Grady
To your knowledge was Patti Smith a racist?
LikeLike
@ Legion and Shady Grady: After reading Shady Grady’s commentary, and the use of the word “spade” I wondered about this myself, because she had that song “Rock n Roll N-word”. I had this discussion with someone on my youtube channel. The person i was replying to about my suspicions about Smith being a racist because of that song, they replied back that she wasn’t. I now have to wonder after reading Shady Grady’s comment.
LikeLike
Mick Jagger and his bandmates had lots of groupies, having money and fame they got to live everything that goes with being in a famous rock band, drugs, sex, and rock and roll.
LikeLike
@ mary burrell
As a guess, this youtube commenter probably gave zero reasons for Smith not being racist, did they just leave their simple declaration and nothing else?
LikeLike
Creem was obviously a classy publication with an aware, intelligent and sensitive and highly inclusive editorial staff.
*eye roll*
LikeLike
@ Legion: It was when I commented on the song “Frederick” I like that song. Then I saw that “Rock N Roll N-word song, I commented that i thought it was horrible, and I said, “I didn’t know she was a racist.” They replied back, “She’s Not.” That was the end of it. That doesn’t really mean anything though.
LikeLike
“She’s not.”
Gee, I guess that’s that then.
LikeLike
You just know that person was white, and possibly stupid too.
LikeLike
Shady, great post, revealing the mentality of many young whites back then, using the word “spade”, as I noted earliar, that is how rock world white kids saw black men, and , black women were seen as the lyrics in this song…
Bad words in songs , is all over the map, in music, you can find it in the old blues or in rap…in my opinion, each one has to be taken on its own terms, and , if you look at this song on its own terms, you have to see it in the back drop of exactly the huge music business hype machine and how it gave a lot of mediocre artists god status…you are darn real James Brown is a far more dynamic entertainer than Jagger. His dancing was steeped in black American dance history, going back to Snake Hips , and dances black kids would do out side of Harlem record shops like Applejack Scoby described, that used slide steps to be bop and early black rock and roll, as well as dashes of the mashed potatoes, uncle willy, and boogaloo that Brown would referance…Jagger would puff his lips say something like “walk like a monkey” and do some derrogatory imitation of a black woman and a rooster that Jack Black imitates…really demeaning
and contrast the words in this song to Smokey Robinson, who really was singing to and for black women, saying
“I did you wrong, my heart went out to stray, in the game I lost you, what a price to pay..”
“take a good look at my face, if you look close , my smile’s out of place, if you look closer, its easiar to trace, the tracks of my tears..”
he is singing about falling in love with black women and valuing them, when he loses them…this is how I related to black women, not Jagger’s superficial , only interested in sex implication
the industry went wild with rock and roll, creating a media feeding frenzy coupled with heartthrob fan adulation , that was bigger than the Rudy Valee, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley phenominons that went before it…never before could the media create its own hype in such garguantuan perportions, and take mediocre talent and create cultural icons out of them, thanks to a dumbed down white audience that shunned geniuses like James Brown and Smokey Robinson for Bob Dylan, the Beatles and Stones
and they are trying to milk it until the end…wait for 50 years after the beatles stones and us all die, and see what they will be studying in depth…Wayne Shorter songs…and these rock and rollers may still be reffered to, but, as a footnote note, certainly their god status will be deflated
LikeLike
Indeed, Shady_Grady. Excellent comment.
To my considerable concern I also agree with most of what B.R. says in his last comment above.
“Industry” and “media” are key. Many, if not most, people worship fashion – be it the stylish, sartorial variety or trends in music, language or popular culture. Talk about fashionable in clothing and people think of it as something positive – not realising or caring that they aren’t buying a great suit, they’re buying product in a style that has been decided for them, packaged up and sold to them. Music gets made into product in the same way.
Some popular music managed to move beyond theft, perversion and distillation of source material. Whether the results are good or bad is a matter of personal taste and opinion. 1970s progressive rockers mostly emerged from the same background as the Stones and their ilk, but some of them moved in directions that owed as much to orchestral works as to spartan blues or soul music. Genesis and others put out some very accomplished work of real substance (before totally selling out a decade later and going pop). Interesting melodic and harmonic experiment that remained listenable and even singable (but not danceable!). Multiple strange time signatures and odd, complex rhythms within the space of a single song. A lot of them also took some inspiration from the improvisational approach of jazz; King Crimson for example – a band that gave us some extraordinarily accomplished and imaginative musicians.
But it seems almost that when white musicians managed to come up with stuff that was not noticeably derivative of black blues, jazz and soul music, they were so pleased with themselves that their egos exploded and the whole thing became so naval-gazingly self-absorbed that only a small subset of the public could relate to it. Punk was a reaction to this elitist excess.
Eventually, to be commercially successful, white people always seem to return to their recycling and sanitising of black music. I’m afraid that even when the old generation of copycats (The Stones etc) dies out there will always be new generations of equally insipid copycats. We already see them.
LikeLike
Damned typos.
^ “Naval-gazingly” should read “navel-gazingly”.
What a difference a vowel makes…
LikeLike
Abagond, have you considered doing a post on Frank Zappa? It’d be kind of related to both the musical theme of this post and the White History thing.
Zappa self identified as white (“I’m not black but there’s a whole lot of times I wish I could say I ain’t white.”), but his ancestry was pretty diverse. His work is very divisive of opinion about the man himself. While his lyrics contained superficially racist, misogynist, homophobic and anti-Semitic language he rarely said anything straight and satire was his stock in trade.
While I find many of his lyrics uncomfortable, I can’t help favouring the school of thought that says the ostensibly questionable words were indeed exercises in Dadaist satire – often quite bitter.
I’d be interested to have my own opinion informed by other perspectives.
I appreciate that he would be a very difficult subject for any writer who is not already familiar with him. A complex, contradictory and bloody awkward man with a huge, diverse body of work in many forms and genres.
Just a suggestion.
LikeLike
Love the Zappa family, from Dweezil to Frank to my gurl Moon (Valley Girl, an 80’s classic)-people often told me I sounded like her growing up in Cali as a teen! lolol
LikeLike
Budhuu , sorry to cause you more concern, but, for me, Zappa, Genisis, prog rock…it all comes out of the same heavy handed stiff white rock ethic..
Odd times is an interesting subject…Indian Classical music is the master of odd times. They have flushed that concept out to the fullest…I had to play a lot of odd times thanks to the affect of John Mclauclans inner mounting flame record with Billy Cobham and the fusion groups relationship to that and Chick Correas over arranged jazz
What people have to ask themselves is, what is the fundimental differance from ancient African , pre Islam concepts and classical Indian dazzling displays of mathematics, and European concepts of arrangements you read off charts
the ancient African concepts use duple/triple meters , with self similarity , simplicity ,that repeatrs back on itself over and over, cross rhythms, syncopation and dances that are coupled with it…these principles when practiced, and the people are holding their parts, causes the brain to stop thinking and go into intuition , and open up the alpha state…the groove becomes the focus and you can let the subconcious express itself in playing for the soloist or the dancer
Im studying ketu candomble styles now, and the fundimental truths are the same in most Afro diasporic rhythms, there is a bell part and drums called “pi” and “le” who use sticking patterns exactly off the bell patern, they hold the groove and the “rum” , is talking to the gods and the dancers, improvising…could be the same as a bop group with a rhythm section holding down the groove and a soloist improvising
I never liked a music for dificulties sake…that never was my point to the incredibleness of bebop…its the holding down the swing groove, at a very aggresive fast pace, using sophisticated harmomies, but the real bop is deep in the swing groove , with even bar A and B sections so the groove can flow and not get over arranged…that is what makes it hard, the holding of that aggresive afro diasporic groove at that tempo, and how to hold hands with the rhythm section…and , in fact , after bop, modern jazz musicians like Miles and Trane , made music like So Whart and Impresions, using modes , not chords as the guide, to make it more simple and open up for more pollyrhythms and a more Afro diasporic slant….but jazz has huge examples of over arranged, over accented and odd times to no time , that splits away from the pure Afro diasporic concepts , also…people really analyse what makes the ancient African drum dance concepts what they are, and what are the concepts that arnt…and why people use these diffwerant concepts and what makes them work…reading music and odd times have differant results than groove based concepts…Rock at its most fundimental leval, is an Afro diasporic concepts, and , when people play it, they groove on the rock beat and feel good about it…its just the most rudimentary of Afro diasporic levals and get abherated into a stiff heavy handed plodding behemouth…that white kids gravitated to and slipped over the great black talents that were flowing then…its not like they all out grew it and started making Smokey a knighted god multi millionaire, let alone Wayne Shorter
odd times take away from the fundimentals of the Afro diasporic duple triple cross rhythm groove concept…it doesnt mean its bad, it means its differant and has to be judged on those terms
Zappa always used top musicians, but, he is very over arranged for my taste and way out side the deepest aspects of the finer concepts of Afro diasporic grooves…I mean the guy is popular in drun circles for writing “the Black Page” executed by drummers like Terry Bozio and Vinny Caliuta, great drummers, but, its anything but Afro diasporic
man , fusion jazz had some of the most complicated over arranged music anywhere, after having to go through it, and learn it, i never put it on my box and practice with it…compared to Miles with his great swing black groups and the Trane quartet, which i keep going back to over an over to learn from…its a never ending source of knowledge , where the other stuff is valuless to me now
LikeLike
” and people analyse” should be “people should analyse”
the truth is, the prog rock groups and Zappa all got to ride the umbrella of the white rock media hype world
its like when one group in seatle goes big, the media rushes over and record companies want to sign anything that is white and moves and has a guitar in their hands
look, i know there is some good rock out there, when it comes closest to aproximating the serious Afro diasporic concepts , it gets my vote
and I just cant understand why the white kids never really went back and looked at the truth of the matter and really start to apreciete the black talents that never got the real shot…and beleive me, there are far more talents than people can imagine that never got the light shined on them
let alone the huge ignorance about the incredible musics south of the USA , that never got a spot light either, some did, a lot didnt…white american musicians and Brits, Europeans etc , need to check the more afro diasporic cultures from there, because the heavy ones have more in common with the black american Afro diasporic cultures than white rock, in principles of cross rhythms, aggresiveness (loud is not the same as an aggresive groove, rock is aggresive in volume and stiff rhythmic plodding along), and dances that go with it
there is huge buried treasure out there, just waiting to be discovered , but , you really have to look for it, the media has jived us all to death…when i first saw an escola de samba in rio, after i recoverd from emotional exaultation and general mind getting blown away, the emotion i felt was great anger, anger that they justr werent showing us this incredible expresion in the media buffet they serve up from the corps , or in any general way you could see it…if things were right, we would be exposed to these things on a regular basis
and you can beleive white racism is part of the problem, and how whites perceive Afro diasporic culture, which if its like the white rock world, they see it as an abheration
LikeLike
Budhuu, please dontthink Im coming in here just to bust your chops…that is not my intention…I know we have serious political differances, although hook up more than we might think as far as concern for certain wrongs in this world
but, these musical things, i have been banging up against for close to 50 year of a profesional career, and, my opinions are forged in close up encounters and constant battles in the industry for certain concepts that have been buried and dissmissed and destroyed
i respect you are trying to play music..so, i dont want you to think im singling your comments out, you just dish up a lot of things i have already faced and batteled against , so its not against you, its against the concepts you comment about
LikeLike
B.R. I’m not concerned by your opinion of the prog stuff. I mostly agree. My post with its “navel-gazing” comment was critical, not praising, of the genre. While I recognise and acknowledge the work that went into it, and the technical abilities of many of the players, I used the word “excess” and I think I probably mean what you call over arranged.
Ironically, Phil Collins from Genesis was also (as I’m sure you know) a jazz/jazz-fusion drummer. I just emailed a jazz drummer friend to ask his opinion of Collins. His response (copy/pasted verbatim apart from a small cut of an expletive) was:
Talking of over arranged, one of my favourite tracks for understated, tasteful guitar playing is Peter Green on “Need Your Love So Bad” (covered from a Little Willie John record). But the guitar playing is all I like about The Fleetwood Mac version. Green’s vocal sounds as if he has a bad cold and the actual arrangement is horrible with inappropriate string fills all over the place.
B.R., it may not be your intent, but in the tone of some of your posts you seem determined to drag all music along to a fistfight against African music and jazz. I don’t think it all has to be in competition all the time. Just because something displays no relevance to African rhythms or jazz doesn’t automatically render it worthless. Music has many functions and many forms. There is plenty of stuff I dislike, but that doesn’t mean that other people’s love for it is automatically invalid.
I’m not a real jazz fan. I’m an occasional dabbler, not an expert. While there is some stuff that I really do like – Miles Davis, Louis Armstrong, Joe Pass, Django Reinhardt and Stephane Grappelli amongst others – there is plenty that I don’t get, such as most of Theolonius Monk’s stuff.
Not everyone has the time, energy or inclination to appreciate such complex and demanding music. Oh, they may come to love it through repeated exposure, but there is also a (perfectly valid) demand for simple, accessible music that people don’t feel intimidated by. Music that they think they have a realistic chance of actually joining in with.
If you were ever to come to one of the jam sessions I run in local pubs you would probably laugh at the “chumps” who come along and sing their hearts out while they strum their three-chord songs. Music operates on many levels. Your musical life may inhabit a technically far higher level than mine, but I claim equivalent validity for simpler genres that can be less elitist and more inclusive. Stuff we can all get into as and when the real world’s demands on our time allow. Stuff that doesn’t reject or belittle the beginner or the long-time player who just hasn’t got what it really takes to shine.
There is joy, and thus value, in a community joining together to sing and enjoy themselves – even if every last man or woman among them sings like a choking cat and plays their instrument as if they had two left hands full of thumbs.
It ain’t jazz, and it may have a crappy sense of rhythm, but it’s genuine music and people value it.
LikeLike
B.R. I have a comment to you in moderation.
LOL, I doubt we’ll ever agree about much – certainly not politics (so let’s leave that one alone), and I think limited agreement is probably the bast we’ll do on the topic of music, but that’s ok.
You have the edge on me. I’ve been playing for just over 40 years and mixing with musicians since I was a kid. I didn’t play in my first band until I was 18 (1978) and I’ve never reached a high level of technical proficiency on any of the half-dozen instruments I play, even though my knowledge of music theory is fairly good. That said, I do live and breathe music. I study it, I play it, I organise events, I promote it (all for the love, not as a career). Most of all I listen to it – many kinds. I’m not uninformed about music. I would even go so far as to suggest that I am no “chump”.
Where we disagree it is because we hold divergent opinions, not because I am ignorant on matters musical. So long as you accept that as a possibility then we can converse productively and civilly.
LikeLike
but I claim equivalent validity for simpler genres that can be less elitist and more inclusive.
We have to be careful about this label: “elitist”. It can be a label of lazy convenience.
I guess I should expand but don’t really want to.
LikeLike
@ Legion.
Fair call. It was, indeed, lazy – and can have connotations more negative that I intended. Thanks for catching it.
“Less accessible” might have been better, or simply “less inclusive”. I was talking from the perspective of people who might potentially want to join in with making the music, not just listen.
LikeLike
Budhuu , I tried to make it clear that I didnt say musics outside the Afro diaspora were worthless…but, what real history has shown us is that, most cultures outside of the Afro diasporic cultures try to make the Afro diasporic cultures worthless…they ban it, they destroy it and dismiss it
From the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade, Afro diasporic drumming and dancing was banned…I brought in a varied list of countries, religions, differant decades , differant races, that banned Afro diasporic dancing and playing from various idioms
The rock era media and record company hype was some of the most excluding business that ever was and dealt an almost death blow to jazz, based on that exclusion..and, Im trying to point out that some of your outlooks, tastes and styles you play, come right from that ethic…the same ethic that brought you the Rolling Stones and Brown Sugar…even if you see through that
Imagine if Eric Clapton liked Wayne Shorter Blue Note era songs , “Fall”, “Fi Fi Fo Fum” ,”Witch Hunt” , “Wild Flower”…I bet you would be playing them
You know, the musics that inform what I call “back beat culture”, the blues, and gosple, were the idioms in slave history that banned drums…the blues didnt start including drums until the mid 40’s…drumset is an invention of jazz, rhythm section of bass , drums, and piano or guitar, is a jazz evolved developement.
James Browns first musicians included jazz musicians,Bernard Perdie worked with Gato Barbieri at jazz fests along with Brown and Aretha Franklin..the early horn sections for Berry Gordy were jazz musicians, the musicians on the Electric Mud record, Loius Saterfeild, Pete Cosey, Maurice Jennings, among others, were jazz players too…
its funny all the white guys that jumped on the blues , but didnt learn jazz. The blues is an integral part of jazz , anyone who has put anytime into the blues , has some basic fundementals to attack jazz..A Love Supreme is the blues with 20th century harmony filtered through it…
Its about choices , but, if someone doesnt really get outside of “backbeat culture”, get beyond the musics that evolved from idioms that banned the drums, and start checking out gua gua co, samba, and other hard driving aggresive non back beat culture grooves, and start checking out the history of black Afro diasporic dance, they give up the right to have overview…and really understand what is happening out here, and how certain elements of Afro diasporic culture have been put down and obscured and dismissed..so therefor , not exposed and not learned
This plays out today bigtime, which is why it is worth seeing exactly how it played out back then with Brown Sugar, how a group like that can have the exposure, and adulation, so there favorite musicians got the attention, but, where black culture was exactly at that moment, was ignored…they didnt have James Brown down, and, they sure didnt get Wayne Shorter
Brown played a major roll in influencing the next idioms, hip hop and rap and house electronic music…some of those jungle beats are the Cold Sweat beat sped up…Wayne Shorter will be studied into the next hundred years by the highest institutes of music learning..even if they get it wrong…how do I know? They already are…
As a profesional, Budhuu, there are differances between you and me
I dont think you have seen the sunrise as much as i have having to play gigs from 10 until 4 in the morning 6 nights a week for long periods…
I dont think you have had to move as much equipment as I have had to
I dont think you have had to play sick with bone crunching flu as much as i have had to on some of those 10 until 4 gigs
and very important, I dont think you have been forced to have to play as many styles as I have had to as a profesional, especialy ones I , or you, wouldnt like
That is really how I learned to understand the real value of the Afro diasporic grooves I love and why I loved them…Id play these other styles, all styles, you have to play all styles as a pro to survive unless you hit it big right away…that is how I understand odd times, reading charts, working on tough arrangements, playing styles from other countries…this is when I start asking myself why I love so much the Afro diasporic styles I like, and I really start breaking it down and figuring out what exactly makes each idiom tick , what does it do to me, how does it make me feel. This is how some of the important conclusions of Afro diasporic grooves comes to me, by comparing it with other idioms, styles and how other peoples express rhythm and dance
Backbeat culture is one narrow slice of Afro diasporic culture…also, by really looking into the histories of other Afrlo diasporic cultures, you really see the same patterns of discrimination, destroying, dissmissing, banning etc prejudice and racism , and the exact patterns you see in the rock 60’s , 70’s, with the Rolling stones,Beatles and Dylan and huge amounts of top quality black American music, pushed to the back burner and ignored
I reccomend you get Miles “Four and More” and start practicing off that..it will open up huge new vistas for you, it was a breakthrough record for me
LikeLike
B.R. Thanks for that. Seriously. That may be the most considered comment I’ve read from you. Even on one read through I recognise truths that I may not have considered in sufficient depth.
I will respond more fully, as your comment deserves, but please bear with me. With the banging headache I have just now I could not do a proper job of replying.
I’ll check out the Davis. I already have ‘Kind of Blue’. But while I love to listen, I could never begin to understand it well enough to play. I think I just may not be wired right for it. I’ve studied theory, got the circle of fifths in my head, can recognise intervals by ear… but a real grasp always eluded me and I’m too old to catch up. LOL.
Anyway… more later.
LikeLike
Ah abagond representing yet again – Yet another racist thing I was not aware of and would not be aware of without the help of my people.
I’m so fortunate to have found this blog so long ago.
Its remarkable and incredible that only after this post did I even recognize this horror – and I liked this song ,but in all the years of listening I never paid attention – makes me feel like such a fool…….
LikeLike
Reblogged this on Mbeti's Blog and commented:
you learn something new about racism – frequently
LikeLike
..Please don’t feel “foolish” Mbeti! You are not the only person who has stumbled (later) upon this info-although, admittedly as a youth in Cali (S.F. to be exact) I learned those lyrics early. Although I have listened to and enjoyed many ‘Stones tunes, I must say that this particular one always leaves me wondering to myself; “What does his (!rst) daughter Karis Jagger have to say/feel about that!?
LikeLike
BR and buddhu:
It strikes me that the unspoken context of your dialogue is the very brief (by global history perspectives) segment of human history during which music has been produced, distributed, and consumed as a form of entertainment outside of the context of government or religion. Technological inventions relating to the recording, broadcasting (by radio), and playing (on devices at home or, nowadays, in your shirt pocket) are still brand new, and an anomaly, in terms of human history. For the vast majority of human history, music was an intrinsic part of social fabric.
Thus, BR decries “backbeat culture”. To be sure, this culture represents a razor-thin slice of the spectrum of music created by humans. The same could be said of our western 12 tone scale structure. Many cultures recognize far more discreet pitches in an octave and of course a physicist will tell you that there is an infinite number.
The simple reality is that “backbeat culture” has been, whether we like it or not, the economic engine that has driven the modern economy of recorded and replayed music. Without it, we would not have an opportunity to acquire and enjoy recordings by Donald Moye of Art Ensemble of Chicago, or the Bulgarian women’s chorus, or Tuuvan throat singers, or Sun Ra, or Gamelon musicians, or Taiko drummers, or Charlie Parker.
“Backbeat culture” is widely popular for the same reason that McDonald’s and Coca Cola are popular: highly refined carbohydrates, fried in grease, horrible for the ticker and the plumbing and the middle but for some reason irresistably tasty to stressed out, overworked, distracted humanoids who want to mindlessly consume something sweet and soft. And it’s getting worse, not better, due to the internet and high speed electronic communication. The world is becomming more homogenous, not less. In China, though they have something like 27 discreet ethnic groups and languages, 97% of the Chinese are Han and speak Mandarin, and growing numbers are eschewing Mandarin for English. Indeed, English is spreading around the whole world. Just last year I read about several obscure dialects that finally died out in places like Scotland, etc.
China used to be cited by health writers as a paragon of cardio health, because most of its citizens ate lots of veggies and rice, and got around via bicycle. Now, the children of the noveau-riche in Beijing and Chongquin grow up on fast food and cars. They are growing tall and fat. America’s contribution to China: obesity, hypertension, diabetes. That same analog applies to the effect on the soul of our mainstream pop music.
But I digress. When you want to discuss examples of economically successful modern era recording musicians who have made some efforts to distinguish themselves from the most mainstream part of this culture — Brian Ferry, Frank Zappa, the Stooges, etc. — you start making distinctions of degree, not character. In other words, these artists fall within the bell curve, albeit further from the bland middle than, say, Foreigner or Mariah Carey.
This, I think, is the point BR is trying to make.
But taking the next step, and implying a value judgment upon one who enjoys this music as one of multiple genres that one also enjoys, that is a step that troubles me. You can tell somebody that the Big Mac they have every day for lunch is bad for them, but you can’t tell them that they are somehow less than you for not eating a kale salad instead.
Taking that analogy further, what BR is saying is that the Five Guys foo-foo burger that some prefer is just a variant cousin of the Big Mac. And even the Kobe beef sliders at Rubicon are just tarted-up Big Macs from a nutritional perspective.
I’m rambling. Where was I going with this? I need coffee…
LikeLike
BR, by the way, I was also 18 in 1978, living in a tiny town in the extreme northern part of the midwest, isolated an naive, very much the hick that you would expect when I showed up that fall on the campus of Northwestern and met my roomate who had been educated at Phillips Academy (Andover).
Like you, I’ve played music since a young age, multiple genres, multiple instruments, and I love many types of music.
LikeLike
@ Mz Nikita,
It would appear that Ms. Karis Jagger’s mother Marsha Hunt did very well with raising her and Mick’s daughter alone (at the most i think Marsha Hunt’s other husband helped to raise Karis). Karis was not acknowledged by her father until she well over 12 years old, and even then, he refused to spend considerable amounts of time with her. Hunt recently remarked that “I am glad Mick wasn’t really a part of our girl’s upbring “[sic].
From what i understand, Karis Jagger is the only formerly educated child of Mick having graduated from Yale in 1992. She is now married with a son of her own, and her father attended both her graduation and wedding, citing that he never denied her in the first place.
Mick’s other children–mostly daughters–all ended up struggling models or has beens in the fashion world. It also appears that Karis got the good end of Mick’s genes as opposed to his other daughters [although this may also account for the fact that Karis’ mother is Black]…who really know
LikeLike
Oops, Abagond, delete that post, i’ll post it again cause it didn’t show…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2258252/Mick-Jagger-He-dumped-live-chef-abandoned-baby-daughter-Marsha-Hunts-time-Mick-Jagger.html
LikeLike
The song is no doubt an ode to interracial sex [particularly between Black women and white men]…
Mick Jagger early in his career took a liking to Black women whom the fashion and music industries deemed beautiful.
Of course songs like these can no doubt come across as highly offensive because of the contexts in which they are written. I myself have never really paid much attention to the song, mainly because i have never been a Stones fan.
If you go back and do a little digging, you will find that most white boy rock/punk stars of the 60s, 70s and even 80s had their flings and lovechilds with Black women and other women of color. It is nothing new or surprising.
The only ones that did not seem to show any public admiration for Black women were The Beatles, and even they can be seen posing with Mary Wells and seemed to have a high level of respect for her art.
As far as the Stones, is it really all that surprising that they wrote and performed this song? They had great admiration of Black men who were stellar musicians so logically they would also have a gravatational pull towards Black women.
LikeLike
@ B.R.
I would be interested on your thoughts (and anyone else’s, of course) on the following post. It is about the sort of black music they play on NPR and other upper-middle-class White American outlets:
LikeLike
I think a lot of people would be interested in this post but especially Abagond, B.R., Blanc2 and a few others. It relates to this post and a few others Abagond has done. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/in-praise-of-polyglot-culture-and-multicultural-belly-dancing/284290
LikeLike
@Legion, Hi. I don’t know if Patti Smith self-acknowledged as a racist. I think it’s safe to say that she was probably as ignorant of black people as most of her peer groups at the time. I’m not familiar enough with her work to make the call.
LikeLike
I can’t remember where I posted it here before but Dave Marsh or was it Lester Bangs wrote of trying to play some Otis Redding for punks at a party and being told that “they didn’t want to hear that n***** disco s***!!” I can’t remember if Patti Smith was there or not but there was and is(?) a racialized hostility among white “avant-garde” types to black music, especially if it’s popular. Smith certainly ran in those circles.
LikeLike
@ Shady Grady
And why is that?
LikeLike
Agabond, I recall the DORF post and thinking it pretty much hit the nail on the head. If anything I’d make the DORF category even narrower and limit it to DORF who had acheived some level of commercial and/or semi-crossover success during their actual lifetime/heyday.
At the same time, I’d note the DORF concept applies at some level to white music as well. It makes sense when one considers the dynamic of music in this modern era of recorded music that is played on electrical devices by non-musicians for listening as a passive consumer activity. To tap into the economy associated with this activity, there are huge numbers of musicians recording vast quantities of music. A lot of it is bad. It takes time for the diamonds to sift out from the coal.
Shady, I saw both the Salon and the Atlantic piece. Obviously that is a huge and discursive topic that goes way beyond this thread. I will say that I reject outright the notion that a white, latina, or asian woman performing some version of belly dancing is somehow doing something “on the backs” of Middle Eastern women. The author of that Salon piece is a misanthrope.
Art is by its very nature a process of synthesis. There is a genre of Mexican popular music that is built on polka rhythms the Mexicans picked up from, get this, Germans. Does that mean Mariachi musicians are playing on the backs of plump German burghers? Soukous music has its roots in Cuban Son music. Does this mean that Kanda Bongo Man is spitting on the grave of Che Guevara? Cuban Son music, the precurser of Salsa, has its roots in Western African music. Does this mean Eddie Palmieri is playing his music on the backs of former slaves? Does Jamiroquai dishonor Aborigines by including sounds of the digeridoo into their music? I once saw a cat blow bebop on the non-drone part of a bagpipe. Was that a kick in the poor nards of some non-underwear-kilted Scott? Did Shinehead shyte on Marty Robbins grave when he incorporated a snipped of Marty Robbins into his “Give meh nuh Crack”? Did Madness piss on Tchaikovsky’s grave when they recorded a ska cover of Swan Lake? I could go on and on, but you get my meaning.
LikeLike
By the way, the thought that popped into my head when I read that hateful Slate joint was the movie “Genghis Blues” (highly recommended), a documentary about San Francisco musician Paul “Big Old Jet Airliner” Pena, who taught himself Tuuvan throat singing and then went to Tuuva to participate in a contest of that style of singing in Tuuva. The Tuuvan people embraced him lovingly for his effort. An excellent example that ought to be followed by others. Whatever happened to imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, after all? What kind of person decides that the appropriate response to sincere flattery is to piss on the face of the flatterer?
LikeLike
HI Abagond. I don’t like punk music or Patti Smith so I couldn’t say how much malice she has or had. But I think most whites who were born in the forties and grew up in segregated areas would find it difficult not to be ignorant of black people.
LikeLike
Blanc, I think obviously humans have always mixed cultures, borrowed and matched. Some people today are still perplexed to discover that many of Aretha Franklin’s studio musicians were white. One of soul music’s last remaining giant guitarists, Steve Cropper, is white, and few of his black peers ever had any racial issues with him. I don’t think the original article referenced in the Atlantic piece was talking about that..or at least I’m not.
There is a problem when one group constantly has its music/culture/lifestyle aped or stolen and to add insult to injury doesn’t even get paid or recognized.
For example, imagine if say Darius Rucker wasn’t really that good at singing country music by the standards of people who were most familiar with it, but nonetheless became wildly popular with black people who had previously paid zero attention to country music. And this popularity not only made Rucker much richer than any white country musician, other black musicians jumped on the bandwagon and started (badly) singing and playing country music while the black media started writing stories and books about how Rucker had saved or even created country music. And finally to add insult to injury the true creators of country music were reduced to being opening acts for Rucker or hoping that he would offhandedly mention them as an influence so that they might see a small bump in unit sales.
Ridiculous but that is what has happened to black music over and over. People see this. So while I agree that every artist should find inspiration in whatever moves them I also can’t be blind to how certain things happen in the marketplace.
LikeLike
Abagond, I dont know what to think about “DORF” , except its an illusion, since the absolutly small audiences listening to and buying jazz could hardly equal white people or their taste. Jazz music sells less than two percent of music so I dont think you can classify it as white taste , now. The overwelming boost in a recognition in jazz in the universities, owes a lot to a black family, the Marsalises. All Americans are severly underexposed to the real jazz and its history and that is nothing to be proud of…thge reason many black Americans dont know about it , is exactly because of this white owned racist mind set that dictates what pop culture is and only sets up a poor buffet for all to choose from. And this minstral show plays out onto today, about what they show you black culture is
There is also huge amounts of bad jazz , and, I am arguing worse with jazzbos who dont get the real deal of the origins, worse than anyone here..and it certainly isnt taught right in the universities, I have to retrain them on the bandstand, they are teaching them to be jingle writers and movie arrangers, not bandstand players…and they dont teach these afro diasporic principles
but it would be a mistake to think young black Americans dont learn jazz, Ms Taylor Moore, who I brought in, is a young black women who knows the real deal, and there are many like her…the exceptional people in jazz , were always individuals who rose above the pack
there is also huge amounts of bad jazz, much of it afflicted with the same problem as whites in rock, they atart super imposing their white concepts over it, weakening the original objectives..and the history of who made the most money , played out the same way, as a matter of fact it is the original template for it
Just to clarify, “backbeat culture ” is not meant to be a put down…there is lots of great backbeat culture, James Brown, for example…it is just a fact that rock, blues and gosple ushered in backbeat culture , and practicly eliminated the jazz swing that doesnt use backbeat, and you have mambo, rumba , that was popular in the USA in the fifties, get clouded over also, and it is wonderful vital music also
Its really the rock hype media and record company ethic that pushes great musics and dances out of the pop money making culture, and they honed their already developed techniques , to the max with the Brit invasion and mediocre white American rock groups
The truth about Zappa is, he just cant play be bop, and the point im making is, you take marcus Miller, he is the top slap funk bass player, he is a bopper, meaning he can play bop,,,,and it makes a differance…without up bop training, you can play rock, funk , and it is going to be more sluggish and sagging in the middle, its just a fact, the training of thinking quick on up tempo bop and dealing with the aggresive syncopation, just gives you the tools to play the other idioms better, with more buoyancy, rhythmic understanding (if a jazz player wants to, a lot of jazz players dont want to , and i dont trust the “i only play jazz” people, there is a lot of bad jazz, and jazz players who cant handle up bop).
I can tell pretty fast, playing other idioms if someone can play bop or not…lets face it, very few rockers or funk only players can really tackle heavy clave or samba . You really have to be able to handle up bop to be able to tackle those faster aggresive claves or sambaos
by the way, the rocker I like the most is Santana…and he gives huge respect to jazz…Sure, you can have these more advanced attempts, but, the sluggish heavy handed ethic remains underneath…i mean Im going to get a thousand times more knowledge investigating Elvin Jones and Tony Williams jazz, than Bill Brufords odd time rock expresions…and the rock ethic he came out of, shut down exposure to Jones and Williams to everyone, including young black Americans
Culture is for everyone…I beleive that…its for anyone who takes the time to really learn it and respect it…even on a minimal leval, if the respect of the culture and the people is there , there is nothing wrong with aproximating any culture, I despise any implications that people of another culture shouldnt learn a culture that comes from somewhere else, But , its exactly what Shady is talking about, that happened since the banjo was made country, minstral shows were white abherations of what they thought black people looked and talked like, the first jazz record was made by whites who said they invented it, all the way into today…and the rock world was this minstral show when it got its big media record company hype
The white racism involved in this isnt the KKk kind, its the other kind , that isnt so blatent on the surface, but underneath, the ignorance of real black culture, the judgements based on that ignorance, and peoples tastes,because of their racism, pick people like Jagger over James Brown, and never ever really get to hear Wayne Shorter songs
LikeLike
by the way, most of my early exposure to jazz came from black Americans, for sure playing it, I went to the sources. I learned from my elders , and gave them great respect…and, going to some of my black colleagues houses, and their parents had Miles Davis’s “Miles Smiles”…or , top athlete, Roy Houston,who I was on the same basketball team, , who later would go to Viet Nam and come back with a mettle plate in his head, was the first guy to hip me to “A Love Supreme”…Jazz was always a black American culture, and that is where I learned it from
LikeLike
another big mistake made when talking about rock and backbeat culture and comparing it to jazz is, you are darned real jazz has better players…that is what it is about, the playing…not accompaning a singer, manipulating every bar , and , concentrating on putting on a show…yeah, there is singing in jazz, but every jazz player knows the differance in accompaning a singer, and playing and improvising just the language of music
its amazing people would ever argue backbeat musics are on the same leval as far as pure playing of music, since that is what jazz is all about…yet, blues, rock, funk, gosple, hip hop , rap, eyc, mostly are based on a singing ethic, or, talking, and the music is regulated to an accompaning leval, its mot there for the pure music only purpose
no one should be offended to say jazz players are the better players, because that is the nature of the jazz idiom…to be the top player
that is how twisted the whole thing gets , and, its proof, most people dont understand the deep principles of the Afro diasporic cultures , and , what their origins and purposes were and are
the more you manipulate a music with arrangements and kicks, and odd times, the farther away from the Afro diasporic principles you get…remember, its ingrained in the Candomble, Vodoo, Santera Afro diasporic religious rites, the acts of using drum / dance , to go into a trance to open up to possecion from the gods, to give up your thinking brain and let intuition take over…of course, these religious rites were using these principles for their own purpose, the basic principles were developed independently , and were specificly put together to get in touch with feeling, intuition, sub concious…something I think takes great intellect to come up with and certainly passes my judgement of what “civilisation” means, since these messages came from a long time ago and literaly, inspite of the worst racism and obstacles that could be thrown at a culture, dominated the popular music cultures from the countries that large numbers of black African slaves were brought to…that is extreme power and force, if you ask me
LikeLike
By the way , Abagond , where does a young black American get any exposure what so ever to Coltranes a Love Supreme , information on the diferences of the great Miles Davis rhythm sections with Paul Chambers , Philly Joe Jones , Red Garland , to Tony Williams , Ron Carter , Herbie Handcock, and how they were trying to swing harder , and get more back into Afro diasporic príncipes ? Where can they get the stories of the Afro diasporic innovations and the history of the enormous obstacles these innovators had to overcome ? I dont see it out there…it should be every day, for one moment on TV, regular histories and exposure and information. Is it any wonder American kids in general , let alone black American kids, dont have an idéia about these things ?
That is why the DORF thing is an ilusion for me…it relates to a very small percentage of people , and, most us Americans get literaly no exposure to our real culture and the truths behind it.
Besides this marketing rip off thing , there is this enormous brainwash thing going on , too , and it is about dismissing , burying and destroying the truth about the real origins and power and purpose of Afro diasporic concepts and real history and replacing it with abherations and mockeries of the real thing
LikeLike
Abagond said, regarding Mick Jagger’s dance moves:
Mick Jagger was not ONLY trying to dance black. Sure, there’s Little Richard and James Brown in there, and something of Tina Turner “rain dance”*..
But, there’s more to it.
When Mick Jagger performed, he DID have a style of his own and a way of moving that was rooted in English middle class mincing.
For one, he’s from the well-educated, not-too-poor, South of England middle class. He came up at a time that knew their Lord Byron, and Jagger, like Byron, was a young man who wore frilly shirts, strutted and preened when he was being watched. Byron walked funny because he had a birth defect, Jagger only studied his as stagecraft.
In England, I’d regularly hear Mick Jagger’s moves being likened to music hall comic performer Max Wall, doing his “Professor Wallofski” walk. And Max Wall someone it was believed Jagger imitated in the early days. (Here is Max Wall moving to a military beat — skip to 01.00 on this 2 minute video:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEU8Hr4nqV8)
Max Wall’s dance moves are rooted in English Victorian and Edwardian musical theatre, so, why isn’t it possible that Mick Jagger wasn’t moving like that before he studied Tina Turner in 1969?
(* only something I’ve heard said, too, that her dancing style looks more Native American than African.)
LikeLike
Moves from a well known person, like practically much else, is often a product of a lot of influences and inspirations, some known and some unknown. That is not unusual. I was thinking that a lot of people believe that Michael Jackson’s moves were just from him alone, too.
But, Michael Jackson borrowed directly from many sources to create something that was distinct, which does not detract from his talent, or ability to innovate.
The famous dance from “Billie Jean”: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9-FGtYACzI)
When he sang “Want to be startin’ something”, he sampled the Manu Dibango song, “Soul Makossa” which is based on a Cameroonian dance.
LikeLike
Re: Patti Smith racist?
Partial lyrics for rock and roll n word.
was lost, and the cost,
And the cost didn’t matter to me.
I was lost, and the cost
Was to be outside society.
Jimi Hendrix was a nigger.
Jesus Christ and Grandma, too.
Jackson Pollock was a nigger.
Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger,
nigger, nigger, nigger.
Outside of society, they’re waitin’ for me.
Outside of society, if you’re looking,
That’s where you’ll find me.
Outside of society, they’re waitin’ for me.
Outside of society. (Repeat)
Sounds like a song about the different, the outsider, the innovator, the avant garde, the lonely genius, etc, if the nature of their work is so antithetical to the mainstream society, that they are pushed out to the margins. Doesn’t sound like hidden racism and certainly isn’t overt either. I don’t know anything about Patti Smith, looks like she enjoyed being a bit of a shocker in her diction; maybe there’s something more to it and then again maybe not. It seems as though, if asked, Smith would have included Tesla as a ni#&er too.
This song would make a poor hate anthem, in my opinion. I wouldn’t want to hear “deep” or “artsy” white people sing it around me though. 🙂
LikeLike
if the nature of their work is so antithetical to the mainstream society, that they are pushed out to the margins.
Perhaps not necessarily. The “out on the margins” thing might be self imposed too. I just read Pollock’s bio, he didn’t have to die first to become appreciated.
LikeLike
I’ve long felt many artists believe they need to pitllessly isolate themselves to bring their work out.
LikeLike
The song is no doubt an ode to interracial sex [particularly between Black women and white men]…
@ Phoebeprunelle
I don’t agree. It seems to be, very plainly, a song about rape, and not just rape but rape of enslaved women. Sex is consensual. If non consensual sex happens, a rape has taken place. This song happens to have a very engaging guitar riff, also the saxophone part is heated and very sexual sounding, and so, it too, is also very engaging. Like many of you, I never paid attention to the lyrics, the melody and the groove were too engaging to me to bother with the lyrics. Also, I don’t own a single Rolling Stones album, so I never listen as closely as I otherwise would.
Phoebe, I think there is discomfort that an engaging melody could be put to a song about rape. Well, I think it is the simple fact that this piece has a very engaging rock melody and the lyrics also happen to be vulgar and rape themed. There is no shame in finding the melody attractive, the melody was very consciously designed to be attractive like all (well, most) melodies are. It’s an act of self delusion though, to insist the song is about a magnetic pull between a normal white man and a normal black woman in normal times, simply because we [average pop music listener] like the melody so much.
This song sounded like another rock and roll song (of the period) with really awesome sounding guitar and a lyrical hook (“brown sugar”) that sounds, with a cursory listen, like an affectionate compliment to black women or sounds like (non violent) sexual interest in black women. The lyrics were bound to slip by many people, especially casual listeners of the Stones; liking a Stones song here or there does not make one a fan of theirs.
I referred to it as a “silly song” above, I was referring to the lyrics. I quite like the melody of this piece and I don’t feel guilty or awkward about that. I wonder if it was ever pressed as an instrumental b-side. 🙂
LikeLike
@ Bulanik
I’ve long felt many artists believe they need to pitllessly isolate themselves to bring their work out.
You make it sound painful.
LikeLike
I suppose it is painful in some cases, hopefully not many or most.
LikeLike
Obviously Jagger has other influences in his stage presentation because what ever he thinks is black dancing , is a horrible demeaning mintrel show..as a matter of fact , he doesnt do real black diasporic dancing based on the fundimental steps , its his idea of what black people act like…he puffs out his lips , puts his hands on his hips and sais walk like a monkey, and does that move Jack Black imitates. Just like lots of English rockers did these mangling of what they thought black people sound like when they sing…American whites did it too…but its more obvious when an English rocker does it and in the inteview , goes back to the “I say , old chap ” inflections . Which is why the Chemical Brothers are interesting…I dont care if someone imitates black singing and gets it right , but mangling it , making it a demeaning copy , doing an imitation , and a bad one that turns minstrel
Jamiroquai is a step up, his mother was a singer and he picked up a lot of tricks , and his band is funky even if a lot is copy and paste past funk songs. But, besides some break moves, his dancing gets off into twinkle toes territory , again, lack of connection to real basic fundimental Afro diasporic dance steps, and every once and a while he will throw out ebonics likev” word to the brotherhood”…again, this is his imitation of how a black American acts
That people would make Jaggers moves a study and make a song out of it is depressing in itself, why not James Brown , who was steeped in the history of black American dance history, some from the jazz age?
Legion you and millions of others absolutly can like the song without shame , Im not shaming anyone , Im saying look at the truth of it, and Keith Richards plays his guitar like a slab of wood, not like a musical instrument. Look how he holds it…there is no finess or caress of the instrument…like it , but dont pass it off as great guitar playing , its from an idiom for kids who no little about playing their instruments…sure some talented people play rock, its where the money was , but the fundimentals are those of kids playing in a garage
Even outside of jazz , which is a real players idiom, id rather hear BB King,Stevie Ray Vaughn , Jeff Beck, of course , Hendrix, of course Santana….as far as sax outside of jazz, cmon , Maceo Parker is the style to imitate…Or Mike Breacker or Dave Sanborne , but they know jazz really well, Maceo is pure funk style and wrote the book
Any white person who throws the n word around , even under the false impresion they are in the know and are provoking and pushing buttons, dont trust them
Its these demeaning imitations of what white people think black people act like and sound like that are minstrel and who then reap huge comercial rewards and are promoted to god status and legends worthy of in depth discusion , while the innovators are regulated to a footnote and not even studied , and some not even recognised at all, that shows the rascism that has its roots all the way back to slave times..its not KKK racism , its cultural racism, and this cultural racism has a huge share of the source of racism many people lament about here , that they face everyday just looking at the media
LikeLike
“Obviously Jagger has other influences…”
NOW it is obvious.
It’s obvious to anyone who saw the Max Wall video I posted above, or knows anything about English popular culture and the milieu that Mick Jagger came out from.
Mick Jagger has other influences in his stagecraft BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE OTHER INFLUENCES. The usual stuff is that talk usually centres on black influences on his dancing, with a nod to “other influences”…which otherwise remain un-specified. It then may come as a surprise to some to learn what the other influences might be, and that they are simply very English performance traditions !
What is more, these DIRECT English influences got to Mick Jagger long before he saw black dancers and borrowed elements to incorporate into his style, just like the way other performers borrowed and incorporated other influences, well, or badly into THEIR style. I gave the example of Michael Jackson.
It’s not as if it’s always one way, all the time, or that Mick Jagger had nothing to draw from in his own home or family.
Therefore, when Mick Jagger sticks out his backside and lips, puts his hands on his hips, etc., why isn’t it channelling comic performer, Max Wall — who sticks out his lips, puts his hands on hips and apes like an ape?
The video posted earlier shows that, at around 00.50. It’s not a revelation.
Max Wall himself was influenced by his own stage family, who were dancers.
When Mick Jagger minces and ponces about, why isn’t he also channelling English poet, Lord Byron, the dandy who was disjointed in his movements?
That was the Romantic styling that the Stones went for in the 1960s.
The English Music Hall and Byronic influences got to Mick BEFORE any of the black people he saw dance. Along with Mick Jagger’s own father who was a teacher of physical education — and who probably taught him a thing or two.
Whether anyone likes it or not, cares, or not — it was simply part of English popular culture, especially South London and Kent County culture at the time.
The mis-interpretation of that as demeaning and mangling of other traditions is a later superimposition.
*
And let’s not forget that Mick Jagger studied business and economics.
When he entered the business he wasn’t the first one who saw that it wasn’t the performer or the act who made money, and he and his colleagues weren’t going to stand for it. He simply insisted on being paid for his work, and his practicality changed the commercial orientation of what followed, something which has been far-reaching. The Stones have been going for 50plus years…
Mick Jagger is a performer, and understands the process and what it takes.
Anyone who has seen him in the 1968 film “Performance” will know that.
LikeLike
@ Legion
Producing that (visual art) CAN be painful. It really depends on the artist and the work, the “birthing” process. It’s so personal and individual.
Look at Mark Rothko, for example. Producing his later works required seclusion and secrecy, and the spiritual stirrings of his painting organized his life, and may have caused him to commit suicide.
For others, it’s not like that,it’s lighter — more like a is struggling combination of complete immersion, with joyful and difficult moments.
If you have the inclination to see “La belle noiseuse”, it does show something of that.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9ox6Tr8S8I)
LikeLike
but dont pass it off as great guitar playing
I didn’t.
LikeLike
Im saying look at the truth of it
Yes, yes, you are totally concerned with truth. That’s just great!
LikeLike
Whether anyone likes it or not, cares, or not — it was simply part of English popular culture
Bulanik, thank you for the eye opening perspective above on Jagger’s stage act.
LikeLike
@B.R.
Legion you and millions of others absolutly can like the song without shame , Im not shaming anyone
Not sure what you’re after, it seems you are trying to matter to people who aren’t seeking your input nor responding to you. My comment was not addressed to you, nor was my comment using any of your earlier comments as a reference point, please refrain from trying to depict my comments as somehow interested in you being a central reference point for things musical, or other subjects, for that matter.
Abagond said: [B.R.,] I would be interested on your thoughts
Please note Abagond was interested in your thoughts and Buddhuu is interested in your thoughts and so is Shady Grady. Perhaps you can continue your dialogues with them. I am not interested in what you have to say. I am not interested in holding any discussion with you.
Thank you.
LikeLike
@ Legion, that’s really kind of you to say. Thank you.
Those are only my observations because I grew up around that part of England, and spent my early life with older relatives who knew that scene.
My opinion on these things is that because an *explanation* is something we WANT to hear it doesn’t mean we ought to skip over info that is inconvenient to the argument we wish to put forward. The fact is that Mick Jagger WAS influenced by great black performers, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that he was primarily shaped by the artistry of brilliant white Englishmen, or well-schooled in that nation’s commercial arts…
.
LikeLike
@B.R.: You do know your music. That’s impressive. You talking about Jamariquoi, i love Jamariquoi.
LikeLike
Rock and roll , the idiom the Stones totaly were immersed in , is a black American innovation . Just as Jagger copied and mangled black singing, part of his stage dancing was immitating what he thought black people acted like.I never said his whole stage schtick was black dancing, Im saying he never had it in the first place, but trying to imply there was no black imitations in his schtick would be severly misleading , the whole group is trying to imitate black American culture…sure, his jumping up and down has nothing to do with black
American dance, but he does do demeaning imitations of how he thinks black people act
That is the heart of the matter, white rock and roll is a poor imitation of black American music, it is a weak mangling and abheration of the original deal , that , basicly because of racist atitudes by white buyers , left the true original innovators , as a footnote , or totaly unrecognised
While Jagger gets a song dedicated to his moves , people dont even want to know it was Cholly Atkins ,an incredible tap dancer , who chereographed all the early Motown groups , like Gladis Knight and the Pips, Smokey Robinson and the Miricles , etc etc…in the 60 s , there were huge amounts of black American dances , a tremendous tradition and culture, that also borrowed from its rich black American dance traditions
Yet , its painfully obvious Jagger, coming from a white English group , achingly trying to imitate black American music , is devoid of any real connection at all with this rich dance tradition…I dont care what tradition he is super imposing over his black American copy, it doesnt work , and makes his copy an abheration…that is what white rock became, an abheration…his superimpositions werent an improvement , they were a joke, for sure , to anyone who really was aware back then if these rich black American dance traditions, and to see these people legendised, and , the real deal regulated to a footnote, and , these rich dance traditions ignored , is ridiculous.James Brown brought referances of Snake Hips , and dances black dances like Applejack Scoby did to bebop , into his presentations, and referances of dances of the day in the black community , like the slop , uncle willy , boogaloo,mashed potatoes etc, Jagger superimposes what he knows of his tradition , mixed with bad imitations of black people..no wonder its an abheration
LikeLike
Hey , Legion, this is a public blog, Im not really addressing you , Im addressing the tidal wave of ignorance about how white rock became the focus and got shoved down everyones throat , so people made medíocre music and performance a legend and spoken about like its gods…while people cant even know the real history of black American music, and substitute it with something painfully inferior
While people say Keith Richards played a great guitar part on Brown Sugar, or the sax is a good line, I think its absolutly mediocre to Bumpin on Sunset, which was on the box at the black parties I went to , or that scratch funk style guitar was something the white rockers couldnt even handle , and Maceo Parker makes that sax line on Brown Sugar look lame…Im afraid to ask who the sax player might be , it could be Mike Brecker, who can play, but , that is the point , the sax ethic in rock and roll is weak
No, Im not going to let people make statements of how good they think something is , that already got huge recognition , and cashed in big time , when huge oceans of incredibly rich dance traditions , and ways to play music are ignored.
Can many people these days talk in depth about the rich tradition of black American dance? Do they know early James Brown and Motown musicians were jazz oriented , or how much jazz influence Quincy Jones brought to his black pop productions?
No, Im going to speak up about it, i dont care what you think, you pass off misinformation that begs to be challenged, if you dont like it , lump it, this wallowing in the platitudes of rock and roll while not being able to address the real fundimental contributions of black American culture , and media dissmissed and burial, wont get passed me
LikeLike
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf35K2Ps_aY)
Its just overwelming that the majority of moves Jagger does here are not from Wall, but are just plain bad dance moves , and, an imitation of what Jagger thinks black dancing is
LikeLike
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb1fm28kCWE)
here is a perfect example of a black American entertainer, who sings better than the rockers, dances better than the rockers, actualy broke a few dances back then…but, is not remembered at all
this is the major crime…the dismissal and burying great talents while others are rammed down our throats…all these rockers bring their own traditions to the table, the Beach Boys brought there harmonies , Pat Boone brought his sensibilities, but when they climb on the rhythm and blues and rock beats, and dont really get it, dont really go in depth, dont take the time to really learn about the culture they are emulating, then their traditions only abherate the original concepts and principles…Beach Boy harmonies are great, but who would really trade Smokey Robinson and the Miricles, or Gladis Knight, or Fontela Bass or Curtis Mayfeild for the Beach Boys?
LikeLike
B.R., a good friend, who like you is an accomplished life-long musician and who comes from a bop background, once pointed out something interesting to me. Listen to the bass playing in certain Afro-Caribbean styles, such as Calypso or even Salsa. The bass in those forms tends to lead the beat just slightly, as if the bass is pulling the music along, or perhaps dancing just above the beat. In contrast, in Reggae, the bass lags just slightly behind the beat, as if the bass is the foundation on which the music rests. It’s a very subtle difference, probably impossible to write in terms of musical notation, more a matter of feel and nuance, but once you notice it, you’ll see that it is very real.
This may be a cousin of the nuance you are describing. However, instead of decrying the one and exhalting the other, I prefer to celebrate both as expressions of different branches of musical creativity.
Years ago I stumbled into a show by a band from Nicaragua at a little club on West Pico in Los Angeles. They played some reggae and some tunes with more of a Calypso or Afro-Caribbean style. The amusing part to me was that the bass player had a difficult time settling into the languid Reggae groove. He came from the Afro-Caribbean background. The effect was subtle but if you knew what to listen for you could feel how his bass grooves on the reggae tunes felt a bit “urgent” or “rushed” in delivery.
You can check them out here:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/soul-vibrations-black-history/id290118998
One of their songs has an awesome lyric hook, the kind you only hear in Reggae or sometime old-time country: “The wicked man flees when no-one chases.”
LikeLike
Shady_Gray: I completely grock the social and economic injustice that underlies the popular and economic success of white rock. However, some white chick belly dancing for a few bucks worth of tips (at the expense of a level of unwanted groping and sexual harassment by drunk patrons) at a restaurant does not present that same type of injustice, which leaves the author of the author of the Slate piece as simply a hater.
LikeLike
“but who would really trade Smokey Robinson and the Miricles, or Gladis Knight, or Fontela Bass or Curtis Mayfeild for the Beach Boys?” [/Eagles, Chicago, Bob Seger, Boz Scaggs, Steely Dan, Hall & Oats]
*********
Or the Four Tops, or The Temptations, or The Marvelettes, or Little Anthony, or The Isley Brothers, or The Drifters, or The Supremes, or The Fifth Dimension, or Sade, or Anita Baker,, or Aretha Franklin, or Blue Magic or ….
I get your point B.R. 😉
LikeLike
Absolutly, Matari ,I grew up in the fifties and sixties , and I saw this unbeleivable media hype, shove it down your throat , whether you like it or not, tidal wave of white rock groups get the big push , while incredible music, and talented artists got dissmissed, ignored, and buried, and mediocre talents , pushed as walking gods and legends..Mary Burrells very potent insight ,of a white pastor telling black Americans their music is too loud and emotional is exactly the mentality…rock, of course is loud, but , its this dissmissal of the black talents for whatever reason, that is the same mentality along with Pattie Smiths ability to just let us know where the head of millions of white rockers are really at….
Blanc2 , I absolutly understand what you describe of the beat, we call it being on top of the beat, or behind the beat…a great musician should be able to do both…what do you really think the truth of the matter is ? While you can watch a jazz musician rush a reggae beat, or funk beat, the truth is , a rock only bass player, or funk only bass player, cant even get on the bandstand to play an up bop or gua gua co , or authentic Rio samba…I mean they cant even cut it, and guess what ? Most jazzbos cant cut up bop , gua gua co or authentic samba…why? They dont understand or want to challenge themselves to the real deep afro diasporic principles .
Gua gua co, up bop, samba, are flagship Afro diasporic idioms, incredibly aggresive, siyncopated and require a group presician that has to be in one direction to sincronize it…
Most American musicians dont ever have to play those idioms to make a living, so , they dont challenge themselves, you really have to go outside the box, but, its not because its challeging or dificult that i spend huge hours working on these idioms, its because the rewards , because of practicing these Afro diasporic principles , at the highest leval , are so profound and deep, that once you get it , you cant go back
Any minimal study of traditional African drumming, reveals some very aggresive , powerful, deeply pollyrythmic,and siyncopated beats..the white influence in the Americas keep pulling the original concepts back
This is the same thing when the Aráb. ,Islamic concepts came to Africa , people who argued with me about that may have missed that point, and thought Im anti Jslam, or Aráb., but was never my point, you have topeel back the layers of the other infuences, to really get and understand the true value, and meaning of these ancient black African and Afro diasporic messeges from the past
Blanc2 , what rock only or funk only musicians can cut a gua gua co, or a real samba?I remember working with rock groups and was told to play behind the beat…its part of their schtick because they cant play on top without rushing…the ideal time feel is like the tension of pulling on a bow , with a tautness you could bounce a coin off of…a buoyancy…you have to master all tempos, slow and fast…most musicians today cant handle the fast powerful aggresive syncopated pollyrythmic deep grooved Afro diasporic grooves..they really require going the extra mile and dedication, like any highly trained ballet dancer
LikeLike
Blanc2, just to expand on the beat concept and the importance of masteriing time…the rockers and funk only musicians dont play on top of the beat
There are tricks, also, that you use in the studio to play on top or behind..if you have a click , for example, you cant edge the time, and bop has edge, you cant put a click on Four and More, and that time is the healthiest anywhere…jazz isnt suposed to slow down, dragging is death…but, a click , you cant go behind or rush it, so you have to imply it
how? you take your groove and narrow it to repeating it inside two quarter notes that arnt cut time, half a 4/4 bar…you repeat it over and over in two beats and it generates an on top feel..to make it sound more on or behind, break up the groove over a 4 beat phrase or one bar phrase in quarter note 4/4 (as oposed to thinking in cut time ), and it lengthens the phrase and makes it sound like you are more on the beat or behind
anticipations make it sound on top , the highhat anticipation on disco made it more on top than rock, but the heavy 4 on the floor bass drum, and two four backbeat (backbeat culture) kept it from reaching gua gua co or bop or samba energy and syncopation
When i say backbeat culture is a narrow look at Afro diasporic culture, its not meant as a put down , but , as a reality if you look at all these huge idioms of clave, samba, Caribean musics so many of the traditional African drummings..this is enormous, huge, backbeat culture is just one narrow look at a concept and what goes into playing it…I play a lot of backbeat culture, Im really into hiphop and funk and perform it, but, you have to play so much backbeat in America to make a living that you can lose all touch with these other spectacular rhythms and beats and dances and what it takes to play to them, and the really deep powerful spiritual rewards a person gets from executing these beats and dances..and beleive me, Brazil goes through the whole same repressive dynamic with its Afro diasporic cultures, this is what is really eye opening , to be down here and see the exact same thing go down and the Afro diasporic cultures get repressed and buried and destroyed and the idioms that have been watered down and mixed with other white traditions, get the maximum exposure and comercial gains and oportunities
LikeLike
I’ve seen the Stones live but J Geils Band was opening and blew the Stones away. In real life the Stones were the art school boys, the Beatles came from the working class. but the best of the sixties britt bands was the Animals. Eric Burdon was teenage kid when they toured USA but slipped from hotels etc. and went to the black clubs to jam with real deals. He really loved the original black guys. Perhaps that is why they never rose to the top. The Stones were basically a pop band play acting HC guys. One hint about how they were seen in the sixties: they were not even asked to play at Woodstock.
LikeLike
@ sami parkkonen: I had forgotten about J Geils, i used to love “Flamethrower” and “My Angel In the Centerfold.” “P*ss On The Wall” I loved that album.
LikeLike
I think Whammer Jammer was the One in their repertuare 🙂
LikeLike
I give Eric Burden points for hooking up with War and making “Low Rider”, that was a hip jam, the Animals didnt really win me over , though, when I saw them on tv…Burden could definitly have benifited from research on the black American dance ethic, back then…there were a huge amount of dances in black American culture in the sixties, the jerk, twine, boogaloo, slop, watusi, madison, mashed potatoes, uncle willy, swim, twist, hully gully, slow drag, bop, hitch hike, monkey, etc etc…they came from a rich dance tradition from before and entertainers like James Brown and the Cholly Atkins trained Motown entertainers, would feed more inspiration to the dance ethic
also very important, the large black community that i socialised in, had Pucho and the Latin Soul Brothers on the box (“beep beep ahhh beep beep”), and also Ti Mon Bo and Bumpin on Sunset , anyone here know what the ramifications of those last two cuts means?
Tito Mongo Bobo, know what that means? Wes Montgomery , anyone besides Blanc2 , Shady or Legion know his value? And all this was smothered out by a white rock ethic that could only gather inspiration from the narrow focus of a country black blues ethic, yet ignoring huge swaths of territorythat really represented where black America was actualy at..in northeast urban culture
and , worst of all, I dont hate these white rock artists, I hate they were rammed down our throats by the record company big budget hype and the media in the corporations back pockets mixed with white racism, the kind we see on here that doesnt want their ndauhters with black men, wont be with a white woman who has been with a black man, denies female black grace and beauty..
a media that invests in black stereotypes to show you how they define how black people act, and throws it out there and it all is a gigantic building downwards spiral…that is spinning on right into today
All of us owe it to ourselves to admit the truth about it, look past our own personal pop affinities that defined our past, and i would never deny anyone those memories, but , at least know the truth of what went down, what was lost, and truly huge amount of wonderful culture has been lost, dissmissed, buried and destroyed
“they dont know what we are missing”
LikeLike
@ Phoebeprunelle
Legion, i certainly can see your logic here. My explanation for why i said my earlier comment is that many Black people in the States (typically Black men), view the historical rape and incest of Black women by white men as us having had “access to white males”…men in my own family have let this way of thinking slip out time and time again.
LikeLike
Well, we can’t all sing from the same hymn book just because it flatters the conductor.
How can Mick Jagger’s bad dancing be both “devoid of any real connection at all with this rich {black} dance tradition”, and be also an “overwhelming” imitation of it? That makes no sense.
To say one “doesn’t care” when evidence is presented that simply doesn’t corroborate or flatter one’s own point of view makes no difference to the matter at hand.It’s like sitting on the beach and telling the sea to stay back — it makes no difference to anything…
Mick Jagger was learning how to dance badly long before he saw any black people dance. His earliest influences were English ones, and there’s nothing an internet video or using exaggerating language will do to change anything about that.
Most people on this blog wouldn’t know the English theatre tradition Mick Jagger came from — why would they — and nor would they have seen an obscure English dancer/comedian like Max Wall perform 40 or 50 years ago.
So what? It’s really not a big deal at all.
There is no shame in saying one doesn’t know something…. 😀
LikeLike
His imitation is how he thinks black Americans act…with weak moves put in there…there is no referance to foundarion black culture dance steps put in
I mean my gosh, the whole band is imitating a black American rock and blues sound , his singing inflections try to imitate a black American sound..since he has no real foundation in black American dance , he brings bad imitations in his body moves , and , what his real background is…
In the clip I brought in , sure, I see what you are talking about, his moves on the feet like Wall , but he never did a monkey impersonation like that..Jagger would say “walk like a monkey..” then he would stick out his lips , put his hands on his hips , and impersonate a black woman, or do a rooster walk…nothing like in the Wall clip..there are no badly done pelvic thrusts from Wall, and Jagger is throwing them in with no context as how its done in black American dancing
Its obvious in this discussion that the lack of knowledge is really about the exact huge amount of black American dances that were happening exactly back then…if people knew that, it would be painfully aware how bad Jaggers imitations of what he thinks black Americans act like are
I dont know what the Beach Boys deep influences of their harmony were, or, the Beatles symphonic influences , or what influnced Bob Dylan to go elétrica, or what influenced Hendrix to go psychadelic, but , I do know, when they saddle up their influences on top of a black American beat and dance tradition, they are entering into a space that has touches with ancient traditions and concepts…and if they arnt done , really going into depth, and , correcty, it is obvious when it falls short, and should be pointed out among the powerful din of hype , millions of dollars and knighthood…
Unlike the belly dance thing Legion brought in, which Im reluctant to comment on , like the DORF thing, because it would be long boring posts on my part, taking me two hours a sitting, and the ensuing arguments, would go forever , about white women belly dancing, I never would say white people shouldnt play rock, that is ridiculous , I say they need to go much deeper into the culture they are copying…investigate the history, the struggles, delve much deeper, because, that is where the real treasure lies…they cheated themselves not really getting the more profound Afro diasporic concepts, and if they had, they would have had an even more deeper respect for the humanity that brought these concepts…and they wouldnt do bad imitations..I would never say people shouldnt play a culture…
And , I never belittled the Wall referance…its fantastic to know where he does get some of that twinkle toe stuff he does…it just doest help his imitations of how he thinks black Americans act…there was so much rich black American dance culture going on at that time…white rockers skipped over rich high leval northeast urban black American culture, and focused on a narrow country origined blues , and early rock concept…so much was left out
LikeLike
Where did anyone say you belittled Max Wall? That’s not what I said.
In fact, I am wondering if you have read what I said, or looked at the short tape I posted.
I said: the early influences on Mick Jagger’s performance style and dancing were English.
THIS IS THE POINT I AM MAKING. Mick Jagger came from a family and a culture that influenced him. That’s only natural.
I identified what some of them were. (You are speaking about other matters.)
If you look at the Max Wall tape you will see that Max DOES do an ape imitation. Have YOU seen a full length live performance of Max Wall?
I have — it was standard for A LOT of people when Max was alive and performed.
If you had been someone in the audience, you would know the context, you would know about the ape moves, the juts and thrusts — not just of his hips — he used his arms and face and chest. You would also know that at his most popular, he was oft-imitated, he was influential.
Not everything is what it appears to because you like a certain theory.
It’s really that simple.
LikeLike
In saying that though, BR, the context and factors that you are discussing IS the Big Picture. There is no doubt in my mind about that, and absolutely not my intention to detract from the history and context of the music you discuss.
My point, though, is NOT the Big Picture. Instead, a detail. But a significant detail that personalizes an individual’s expression.
As anyone interested in the depth of understanding any subject,realizes — not everything is what it appears to be when we are talking about individuals, especially their families, their early cultural specifics that another culture wouldn’t have access to…
That kind of “insider” info is left out or not known a lot of the time.
Some untruths about a famous can even get cast in stone! True or not!
Like many individuals, Mick Jagger might be far more complicated and contradictory than “outside” information would tell us.
LikeLike
typo *about a famous person
LikeLike
Yes, ok, belitle is the wrong word , what I really mean is, I dont underestimate this detail about Wall, you brought in ,it is fascinating
I did watch the clip, and, my writing misinterpreted what I meant, which is, I havent seen Jagger do that kind of impersonation of an ape that Wall did , although he may have imitated a monkey , thinking of Wall
LikeLike
As far Patti Smith and “Rock and Roll N-word” I guess she was taking artistic licence and talking about artist who were outsiders artistically. But I can’t help feeling some kind of way about the N-word. I guess she was trying to make be shocking. Again, i am learning about the contex of words and language.
LikeLike
His romantic partner of some years has passed away. Suicide is reported as the cause. L’Wren Scott is her name.
It was remarkable to me how much she looks like brunette version of Jerry Hall.
LikeLike
His daughter is Karis is looking for a burial site. This is sad.
LikeLike
BR — I hear exactly what you’re saying. Most rock players and American funk or R&B players could not play on top of the beat. In fact I would hazard most never even consider the concept. As you note, playing behind the beat has become so infused into the American musical soul that most people I know who play music never even consider that there might be another way to play. Part of what you call backbeat culture.
LikeLike
bsolutly , Blanc2
Listen, you know I dont know how you play at all, so, I dont want you to think these things Im saying are implications towards you in any way at all, or anyone else here individualy who also play music
Its just amazing how , with the entry of rock and rhythm and blues, this really great way of feeling time, jazz swing, with no backbeat, is slowly but surly, dissmissed, abandoned and shoved under the rug, exactly when it really starts going into the stratasphere with Art Blakey, Elvin Jones and Tony Williams and many other great musicians taking the music into a profound leval…
the swing beat has the duple triple rhythm built right in to it, splang a lang splang a lang, is really splangalangity/splangalangity/..these triplits that Elvin Jones flushed out so well, but other drummers were implying it also
The blues kept a shuffle feeling going, but, compared to the swing beat, its pretty contained…Jack Swing, by way of the DC Gogo craze, brought a kind of bouncy feel into the comercial pop feeling of rhythm, with a kind of implication of swing with a backbeat, but , again, not the pollyrhythmic cross rhythm sophistication
The truth is though, the basic eigth note swing rock beat, is a duple/triple implication….if you do 2 against 3 with each hand, if you pull out the first beat of the duple and only use the second beat, all you have to do is slightly imply an eigth note on the triplit part and you have the basic rock beat…
ironicly, if you take last note of the triplit off a 2 against 3..you have the jazz swing beat
all this testifies to the incredible ancient knowledge coming from black Africa that uncovered these concepts and principles, tied directly to dance also…
Blanc2, again , I dont know your playing at all, so you know this isnt implicated to you, I just think, we white American musicians, who, if we walk out the door to play a gig, maybe 95 percent of the time,we are playing an Afro diasporic rhythm innovated concept (which isnt denying at all the other influences around the world that go on top of the musics we play on normal gigs), we have kind of an obligation to really try to learn the depth and origins of these Afro diasporic concepts..after all, people dont accept inferiour versions of European classical music from around the world, the standards are the same and people everywhere are held up to those standards…yet, we abherate the ancient Afro diasporic concepts and lose the treasure that they were innovated for…this turning off the thinking brain to get in touch with intuition in these concepts of repeating grooves in self similarity, simplicity, syncopated, cross rhythmic, that in its simplicty , builds complex structures , and, tied into dances meant to go with it and this reaches great alpha states in the brain…
why would we want to abherate that with over arrangements, too many kicks, odd bars, extra bars in the composition past simple duple triple, stiff heavy handed grooves etc? We lose the deep pay off and treasure in the process
I always beleive, we white musicians should go to the source, also, and be under that learning, not copy from afar, we have to go in deep and understand the music and dance to the fullest up close and personal..
LikeLike
BR, my musical knowledge/understanding exceeds my playing ability by a great deal. I’m an overworked, overstressed dad with little time for practice. I’m sure that by now I’ve forgotten way more music than I currently am able to play. Basically I’m an over-the-hill rhythm ‘n blues wanker. I like to say: “I may not play very well, but I play very loud.”
That’s only partly kidding, by the way. On my acoustic I still learn some very rudimentary jazz-inflected stuff. Recently worked out a solo acoustic cover of that Burt Bacharach tune, “This Guy’s In Love With You”, for example.
LikeLike
No, Im going to speak up about it, i dont care what you think, you pass off misinformation that begs to be challenged, if you dont like it , lump it, this wallowing in the platitudes of rock and roll while not being able to address the real fundimental contributions of black American culture , and media dissmissed and burial, wont get passed me
This person B.R. is quite phony, quite pretentious and trying way to hard. When someone says they like something, as I did, it isn’t misinformation, it’s just saying you like something. Furthermore, this B.R. is very well aware that I am not an ignorant or cloistered listener of music. Deceitfully, he makes a post relying on the ignorance of others (regarding my tastes) to spread misinformation and engage in posturing. You are a sickeningly dishonest man B.R.
• Here I have “great taste”, B.R.’s own words.
but now I’m wallowing in rock and roll platitudes? Utter nonsense.
• For the reader (any reader following this).
Here is a little info on my tastes. In fact it’s a little deeper than mere taste. I go so far as to use the word “love”, I chose this word thoughtfully, and so, it still stands. This dishonest individual B.R. knows the comment, as it was directed to him, at his request.
• It’s quite clear that I know what fine guitar work is.
—————————————————–
As many of the regular commenters know, it is very unlike me to discuss the ‘whiteness’ or ‘blackness’ of others, I don’t talk like that too often. I must say though, it is bizarre and deceitful (at a remarkable level of intensity) that this white man who is very aware of my love for the Black American art of Jazz music, is ranting nonsense, about me, a black man who has been in love with Jazz and Billie Holiday since my teens. It is in fact (as my comments on the Miles Davis thread make clear) Jazz music and Jazz culture that I “wallowed” in for years.
———————————————————-
It’s very easy to be a music snob when you’re into Jazz (and classical). It’s really easy, anyone can do it. But you have to learn at some point in life such things as music snobbery won’t save your soul when it’s time for the next step, nor do people like snobs very much. Also, snobbery is for childish mentalities, isn’t it? Or, more specifically insecure mentalities.
A small anecdote:
Via some accidents of life, a young man whom I might not interact with otherwise has befriended me and I him. The age gap is significant and the opportunity to tell him how ignorant and stupid he is, is always there. I never do this to him and in fact he is a smart kid. He was very into Rock when I met him. And the rock he was into seemed very white to me. I never castigated him for it–why the devil would I do that? He was raised by white parents who still romanticize the music they enjoyed from the 70’s and 60’s.
It’s funny though, my young friend could see he might be somewhat culturally cloistered. All the adults in his social circle were always telling him the same things about music and various eras of music. In me, he saw an opportunity to contrast and compare other things he had been told his whole life. I never attacked his other information sources, some of whom would be his family, nor did I privately wish to attack them. But I was enthusiastic (as is my way) in presenting him my views on great bands and great types of music. He was taken aback by some listening suggestions. He knew I had good taste from early conversations but was stunned later to find out I was a huge Prince fan, for example. Prince was a favorite of reactionary conservative listeners to malign and mock, and Prince made it easy with album covers like Lovesexy, but of course: “don’t judge books (or albums) by covers”. Anyway, to shorten the story, this kid is now big into Charlie Parker, Miles Davis and Prince. He is growing a deeper enjoyment and interest in Jazz as time goes by. He still likes his Rock too, which is cool. He is now getting a wider appreciation for music than he previously had and that is also cool. He is not listening to the rock idiom because he is ignorant or stupid, he listens to it because he likes it and now he also likes other stuff–it’s perfectly fine.
——————————————————————-
Second last point:
No, Im going to speak up about it, i dont care what you think, you pass off misinformation that begs to be challenged, if you dont like it , lump it, … blah, blah
Look, get real. You’re not saying what you’re saying out of a cause. I’ve demonstrated you’re deceitfulness via the links back to the Miles Davis thread. You’re simply making a first rate effort to be:
a) An asshole
or
b) A bizarre white prophet who reveres and spreads and participates in black culture better than anyone else, including blacks. Ebonymonroe already handed you your ass on that score so you need to get off it.
———————————————–
Last point:
B.R. when you posted video of your son dancing, no one, NO ONE, was impolitic enough to say, “Wow, I can’t believe how terrible a dancer your son is compared to [a name dropped list of clearly better dancers].” No one did that for the simple matter of knowing how to be decent. But also many people would realize there is no point to doing that. That doing so is a kind of non sequiter (look it up B.R. before responding, and then read the definition three more times, I know you won’t though.) Knowing that one will not be as good a dancer as the best dancer who ever was is not a reason to not dance. Knowing that one will never play the guitar as well as Django Reinhardt, say, is not a reason to not play guitar. It is stupid to listen to a Stan Getz recording and say,”He sucks, he isn’t Coltrane.” It doesn’t matter if Richards holds his guitar like a slab of meat. If and when Richards decides to play through the ‘I got rhythm’ chord sequence, I trust, he will alter his technique. Artists/musicians do what they do for self expression and competent technique* and the creation of something engaging or good on some level. If everyone just wanted to be ‘the best’ the psyche wards would just get filled to bursting. But B.R. you know all this, you’re simply dedicated to carrying on your pretentiousness and deceit.
Again: You are a sickeningly dishonest man B.R.
LikeLike
I missed a link:
I said:
• For the reader (any reader following this).
Here is a little info on my tastes. In fact it’s a little deeper than mere taste. I go so far as to use the word “love”, I chose this word thoughtfully, and so, it still stands. This dishonest individual B.R. knows the comment, as it was directed to him, at his request.
This is the link for my comment:
—————————————————-
Also, some may be unaware. SW6 and Legion are the same person. SW6 is my former name on this blog.
LikeLike
Ha Ha , Legion !! I never tried to deceive anyone..Ive mentioned before you like jazz..love jazz..i never hid that..
but , only Dave has made more horrible contributions to the “white music thread”…
you can love jazz all you want, but, if you start talking about an engaging guitar line from Richards and a nice sax line..well, excuse the hades out of me, but, I have a right to give my opinion about it..it has nothing to do with your love for jazz, which I also said i respected, and still do, but, not at the expence of clamming up when people praise instrumental playing that i find not very engaging…
sorry, cat, but , i went through adolecence listening to this trite praise about these people who can barely play their instruments, and, every darn decade, all you read about is these people that I could care less about, even in todays news, they have been idolised, legendised, godised,knighted and are billionaires…they cant play music very well though…and i have no problem saying it..your liking of jazz has nothing to do that i disagree with your thinking they are playing engaging guitar and nice sax…i dont think so, what in hades has me being white and you being black got to do with this?
You are so messed up about this, you even make it a race thing…how dare I give an opinion to you exactly how I feel about you thinking the guitar is engaging and the sax nice when I think its mediocre…
but , you are a person who calls me a wingnut because I think Chumpsi suks, but you are someone who advised everyone not to take vacines and then you come in complaining about the suffering you got from catching the flu..id say that is a wingnut….
you can think anything you want about my sons dancing, but, anyone who can do the james brown ,cop the splits, do six in some break moves and do some Brazilian dances is all right by me…he also is a monster percusion player…ive worked extensivly in the dance world, I love my overview…I trust my judgement about dancing
LikeLike
there are plenty of jazz players who like the stones too, even played with the stones, who would defend them…i could care less
i have an opinion about it…i dont like them , i dont agree with your ascessment…so what?
get disjointed all you want…make it a racial thing all you want, i still think they are mediocre…im not looking for your acceptance..to pass your test..to have to be oh so careful what i say about music because i come off condensending to you…or some white bwana..that is your hangup…when i talk about music , i shoot from the hip…the way people turn on me in the end , for what ever reason , anyway, Im glad I do speak exactly my mind
deal with what i say, think anything you want…it wont change one iota how i feel about them and their music and your opinion about it
i treat you and everyone here the same as i deal with music on any jazz forum, talking with musicians and jazz lovers…like you…
LikeLike
Its funny, on the Obama pictures thread, I try to bring in some more in depth information on the subject of Aghanistan , refering to the Afghan, Pakistan , India triangle…and I get sized up as the thoughts of “a white man” and one like Archie Bunker, at that…I think you chimed in in agreement, maybe im wrong, but, very funny, if my arguments fluster somebody, it doesnt matter if it isnt a racial subject, my arguments become the arguments of “a white man”
that is really lame
LikeLike
Your feelings about the Stones aren’t a concern. I made it clear that it’s quite alright what a person likes and doesn’t like. What I’ve pointed out is your dishonesty and your pretentiousness.
but , you are a person who calls me a wingnut because I think Chumpsi suks,
Another lie. I would never categorize someone as crazy because they don’t agree or dislike Chomsky. Disliking someone is not a basis for insanity.
deal with what i say
I have.
Im glad I do speak exactly my mind
Yes, and I’m sure lurkers and commenters alike are quite in awe of your fine mind.
you can think anything you want about my sons dancing
What I think of your son’s dancing is not the point. I made the point above when bringing up the dancing. It’s there for others to read and understand, if they choose to scroll back up.
i come off condensending to you
You come off as desperate to prove something or show something.
but you are someone who advised everyone not to take vacines and then you come in complaining about the suffering you got from catching the flu..id say that is a wingnut….
I highly doubt that I told people not to take vaccines. I don’t doubt that I said, “I don’t want to take them.” I also don’t doubt that I warned of vaccination as a medical practice which we (the public) are not fully informed about, this is not a radical view. Getting the flu doesn’t make me regret not being a consumer of vaccines. I happen to know the details that led to my getting the flu, you do not. I stated that I had a flu, it was a bit of a side comment to and for people who would have some degree of interest in that little fact, and a couple of forum buddies did wish me well, that was nice of them. Don’t really understand what you’re after by bringing it up. Desperate to create a distraction by pulling at just about anything, I guess. Yet, you say, “deal with what I say.” You foolish man. You are running away from what I’ve said here and mentioning a comment that (maybe) two other people will remember what you’re going on about.
You are so messed up about this, you even make it a race thing…how dare I give an opinion to you exactly how I feel about you thinking the guitar is engaging and the sax nice when I think its mediocre…
It would have been just fine to give an opinion. That’s not quite what you did though. I went into what you really did in the comment above at 18:34:38. In fact, I gave a simple opinion and pretentious cretin that you are, you thought you’d use it as an opportunity to misrepresent me and demonstrate what a wunderkind you are. I’m just outing what you’re doing, that’s all.
I brought up the race thing because of recurring behavior that you exhibit. I do believe plenty of the other commenters have seen the same pattern from you, and so, again, I’m not saying something outlandish in bringing up the race aspect. Obviously, since I seldom do that, I believe it is salient in your case.
How annoyed would Jewish people get if I used every opportunity I had to drone on and on about Jewish Klezmer music and all the fine artists of that idiom and how people need to remember the deep artistry of Klezmer and how nothing else compares to it? It would be such an idiotic non sequitur, but that’s all you do around here.
LikeLike
I think you chimed in in agreement, maybe im wrong
You don’t know if I agreed or not. It would make sense to ask the Abagond or myself. If you don’t know and you aren’t going to check, why bring it up?
LikeLike
*the
didn’t mean to have that there.
LikeLike
Legion, your whole point that I praised you on the Miles thread, but, hide that now , is totaly false
In various statements I have made recently about the few blog commentators who have some knowledge of jazz , I always include your name..always…
So , your whole point is set on weak arguments
Whether you love some jazz , has no bearing on why I would want to speak out that , when I hear people say something complimentary about the Stones music , I feel compelled to say I think its medíocre compared to the music that was played in the social circles in black America that I was participating in. Especialy since that music got suffocated and buried in the hype from record companies and media in their back pockets.
Bumpin on Sunset was Wes Montgomery, Ti Mon Bo , was Tito Puentes, Mongo Sanamaria and Willie Bobo…when I heard the actual whole record later on, since it was on 45 s at our house parties , it became one of my clave bibles..these incredible musics got dissmissed in an enormous whitewash of rock and roll..
So, in the midst of the majority of the flow of comments , that may criticise brown sugar lyrics , but say the music was engaging from the guitar with a nice sax line, I beleive these readers and lurkers you refer to , deserve to hear a voice that will say , no, I think that music is medíocre,and rock guitar is grating, unhealthy for the eardrums, and the rock sax ethic is weak compared to funk sax like Maceo , let alone the rich jazz tradition . And these readers deserve to hear how I can elaborate on that, in depth , and, quantifiable, even if they dont get it or agree
Giving my opinion about how you feel about the guitar and sax , is not making a statement of your over all tastes , and, quite frankly , Legion, you have insulted me on various occasions , you dont deserve my respect after your condescending put downs….but, in fact, I dont have Ill will towards you, but, I dont trust your opinion on me one bit , or your take on what Im saying
Lets face it also, Legion, you and me do come from radicly differant cultural backgrounds , and it has nothing to do with black or white
LikeLike
Sheesh you guys, discursive much? Y’all need to kiss and make up. BR doesn’t like Keef. Seems odd to me, but sometimes that happens. I find a bit of unwitting humor in the way BR describes Keef as holding his guitar like he’s holding a slab of meet. Keef himself often (reverently) uses the phrase “just a slab of wood” to describe his Macawber. Meantime, if you think it’s a mere trifle to construct an iconic rock guitar riff that resonates through generations of fans, then go out and do it and earn your scrillion.
A musician buddy of mine, fantastic guitar player across multiple genres, extremely well educated, exactly my age, doesn’t like Jimmy Page. WTF?
Me, I can’t stand Jim Morrison (did you know “Mr. Mojo Risin” is an anagram of his name?). He makes my skin crawl, but I know the reason — an unhappy clingy/stalky girlfriend in my formative years was way into the Doors and to this day I cannot break the negative association. Happens.
I can dig Don Pullen and Donald Moye and Phillip Glass and Bheki Mseleku and Radiohead and Bird and Salif Keita and and Pharaoh Sanders and Kraftwerk and anything with Nile Rogers, plus dozens of other artists and genres. Heck, I’ll even admit to a guilty pleasure: The Ohio Express (“Yummy Yummy Yummy”, “Chewy Chewy”, etc.). So kill me.
Out of all, to this day the purest musical event of my life was the blind beggar busking at Detroit’s Eastern Market back in the day, covered in grime and pidgeon shit, singing heartfelt gospel, accompanied by his battered old guitar, in a voice redolent with personal knowledge of both Heaven and Hell.
LikeLike
Well , Blanc2 , its the hype and promo , behind that iconic rock guitar riff , that severly hides some wonderful guitar riffs from other idioms…and that gives it the launcing pad to the higher levals of sucesse and fame and celebrity…there is nothing wrong with fame, its the gigantic exposure of a very limited perspective if music , at the expence of the loss of exposure of other more in depth musics , that this gets into the dissmisal and burial of other marvelus styles and artists..Im not against their popularity or fame and money, its the burial of huge amounts of talent and idioms , that is the crime, and we are poorer for that..we are being cheated by that , and , its extremly relevant that this is going down into today
This is the crux of the matter , though, this whole hype and enormous money invested in iconic rock guitar riffs , to make sure, whether we like it or not, we all will know these rock guitar licks , and will be talking about them, whether we like them or not…and, does popularity really make something valuable and in depth? I never bought a record or artist in my life because they were popular, but, a whole lot of popular artists have been shoved down my throat , from huge record companies and the media in their back pockets , so , I have to be aware of them….sure Jummy Paige is a cut up, but, an extremly limited diet..
I mean, hey call me a prick, arrogant, big ego, anything, but , ive been on the stage or in a studio with Sonny Sharrok ,Jimmie Ponder, John Scofeild, Henry Johnson, Mike Stern , Ryo Kawasaki ,Phil Upchurch , Pete Cose etc etc, some ferocious scratch players from James Brown cover bands , and , if that isnt enough, some just incredible Brazilian guitarists , and , Brazilian guitar is more advanced than American guitar , they have whole families of guitar and stringed instruments,cavaquinho , bandolim, guitarra de sete chordas , violão ..and various styles , complex and inticrite , and syncopations that absolutly most people outside of Brazil cant really get…I mean Paige cant play any of the styles of the people I just mentioned, he couldnt play up bop or a decent samba
Ive been next to these people, felt their strong concepts of rhythm, the unbeleivable melodies and harmonies , and seen their incredible techniques on the fretboard and right hand techniques , up close….so , you bet, I dont have patience with rock guitar…I even like and respect some…Santana…its not even about England , John Mcluaclin is high level , much deeper than Paige, his work with Zakir Husein is phenominal, he can up bop too…just cant play a decent samba
I already said I have no Ill will towards Legion, but he has insulted me cronicly
and also tried to help me with info for my back….I dont hate Legion, but, this ominous depiction of me leaves a lot to be desired , and just breaking it down to race, just makes me not trust his judgement…if I cant say I dont like Richards guitar , and explain why , and not get broken down as a white man just trying to tell a black man how it is, then I just cant trust judgement of me at that point
Even Abagond praised the music of Brown Sugar, I dont mean to vamp on peoples taste, I dont get Brown Sugar is Abagond or Legions preferred taste, or their only taste and sure doesnt represent them…I strictly incerted my opinion , as a counter voice , to show a counter opinion does exist, and an opinion I can elaborate extensivly on
LikeLike
Id just like to say also, since Legion did bring up my son’s dancing, and its very relevant to my points, whether people like his dancing or not , he is doing exactly what I think is the right aproach as a front man. He is going and researching the histroy of black dance in America, he can trace James Brown back to Snake Hips, uses referances to the old uptown Charleston , took breakdance lessons…doesnt reject the great tap artists, although hasnt studied tap…studied Michael Jacksons , James Browns and Princes mic techniques and spins, cops the splits like the Nicholous Brothers passed on down to these dancers…
and, even more important, the whole dance ethic of his presentations, especialy when he hires advanced break dancers and passistas, is totaly against the grain of most all the dancing you see in these pop presentaions these days, where every move is choreographed , hand up on 1, hips out on 2…every step is manipulated…everyone dances the same step at the same time..
on the other hand, my son’s presentation dance ethic is about improvisation, each dancer brings to the table their statement, their full expresion and their ability to knock the ball out of the park differently evereytime we perform…this is one of the Afro diasporic traits, improvisation, and, the battles to see who can do the best…samba has it, tap has it, break has it…modern group pop choreocraphy doesnt..
that is why, for me, a guy who has backed up a lot of singers, worked with trained dancers who do do the cheoreography thing, and im not saying i dont like it, i just know, reading a chart while the dance company is performing on the stage is not the same as being in the moment with an improvising dancer, having to watch them and their everymove to try and catch things and give them the deepest groove…this is something deep in the Afro diasporic dance experiance, not to say they dont have unison steps also, they are based off of fundimental dance steps for each dance , but to continue, that is why for me, backing my son is a real thrill…there is nothing like playing funk for someone who can do the James Brown, spin like Michael Jackson, work the mic like Pricne , cop the splits and then do some sixes in some break move….then we go to some Brazilian dances
this is exactly what Im saying rock musicians and front men should really be doing….whether anyone likes my son’s dancing is irrelevant, I like it, that is relevant to my life and that is all that matters to me
LikeLike
Also, what is really frightening about this media manipulation and hype and how it plays into today :
Would somebody tell me how is it possible for , in the eyes of pop media and hype and perception , that pretty much only rock and country are the idioms you expect a live band to play behind or record to, but, the other pop idioms seem to be about creating the music in the computor…of course with some exceptions, some artists use live bands to back them but recorded it on computor , for sure its not like my time back when we recorded everything on instruments…but, that is frightening…rock and country are the live band ethic..jazz is off in left feild on the fringe…2 percent record sales
and now, jazz, afro pop, foreign music , are ridculed as dorf by some activists as some white microaggresive racist demographic…the musics that are played live with real musicians
beam me up scotty, this planet suks
LikeLike
Have you seen the famous piece by Pat Metheny on Kenny G? It speaks to many of the same issues you speak of. There must be a link to it.
Ah, yes, here: http://www.jazzoasis.com/methenyonkennyg.htm
The fundamental point is that the world is an unfair place. Scumbags and poseurs and charlatans of all ilk get rich. Visionaries, saints, artists, peacenicks, we struggle. PT Barnum was right.
LikeLike
BR, by the way, you sound like a grumpy old man in your last rant. Don’t feel bad about it, though. I rant about the same things when I hear the crap of my kids’ generation.
LikeLike
Ha , Blanc2 , I know , I probably do come off to people on here as angry or grumpy about these things ….but, in actual fact , Im calmly stating the truth…and that truth grates up against a lot of people …they think Im attacking them , when Im addressing the music..
Decades ago , ive come to acceptance with the music business dynamic, but, I sure dont mind expressing my thoughts about it on any of the open blogs I participate on , whether a music blog, or one like this..
I cant change people eating fast food and coke , but , I can tell them about wonderful Brazilian dishes
I am into hip hop big time…the break dance and the incredible beat that introduced break, but, its been abherated, and minstlelised, but, I follow the trends to see if there is some great talent that breaks through…I try to see if there is a new beat that will take us forward…I never turn my back on the street, but, I dont jump for just any bs
And , I have to confess, id rather listen to hip hop and electronic dance music than rock..they play edm at the beach points where the young atteactive people gather , so its in the background , but , it doest turn me off , like rock, house music has rhytm and blues referances, and , you can occaisionaly hear some pleasant sophisticated chords , and there is a percusion ethic
For me, its very revealing to see young white Brazilians, turn their backs on the incredibly rich history of their stringed instruments , to practice rock guitar…you actualy see them copy that stiff right hand rock strum , and limited fret board way to play, and , they morph into treating their guitars like slabs of wood , mimicking these horrible ways to hold the guitar…I mean , Brazilian strumming of their stringed instruments is ferocous..and these young white Brazilians are turning their backs on that for something brought to them by media hype…
Like trading black beans and rice for mccdonalds hambugers , fries and coke..
By the way, Blanc2 , which Wayne Shorter song can you hum ? Id like to think, since you mentioned you were investigating some jazz , that you , Shady and Legion might be able to hum Footprints…
LikeLike
Blanc2 , one thing Id like to clarify, Im not just a jazzbo arguing for jazz…for example, Im not a Pat Matheny fan , he can up bop, but I cant listen to most of his records..
Jazz , as you know , Im sure, is huge, it has lots of styles , transitions , and , was one of the actual templates for black innovations abherated by white people, and then comercialised , and the white people make the money
There are huge amounts of bad jazz, and jazz that strays way past the original afro diasporic concepts, full of over arranged , over kicked versions of jazz, odd times , extra bars, overly intellectualised…the deepest jazz is trying to get back to afro diasporic roots…
But, what is perplexing is , the anger and resistance to suggest the obvious, that , jazz, the music mostly based on instrumental playing , of course with a comercial history with singing, but the essentials are based on improvising over instrumental music, are better players than rock musicians , who are mostly backing singers , and are more concerned with staging a show, than actual playing…rock musicians , and I know since ive worked with rock bands, mentaly arrange every four bars , they set it with specific kicks, and manipulations…they totaly massacre the groove flow with over thought out manipulations…
There is no argument about who are better players, jazz musicians are about playing their instruments…its just, they superimpose ther own hang ups on top, and it was the same racist comercial dynamic, and there is lots of bad jazz
We all are jumping on top of these Afro diasporic innovations , but do we ever ask ourselves what are the real principles behind these conepts that make it function ? Or, are we always trying to emulate , copy, abherate, comercialise it and critique it without really taking the time to really ask and analise what these principies are really about ?
It seems to me , how these things play out in the music business , are the exact parralels to racial prejudice and maybe the true reason racial prejudice plays out like it does…this cultural dynamic is the foundation of racial prejudice, or part of its intrinsic organic material
LikeLike
I’ve often said that jazz music is the only serious contribution made to high art by the US. That may be an exaggeration, but not by much.
As a metaphor, check this out. We used to look at China as a place with a high level of cardiovascular health. Not that long ago, most people in China ate diets of rice and fresh vegetables, and rode bicycles for transportation. Nowadays, young people in Beijing and Quonquing eat MacDonalds and ride around in cars. They are significantly taller than prior generations of Chinese, but for the first time obesity and cardiovascular disease are becoming widespread issues in China. This, my friend, is the contribution of the US to global health.
In much the same way, our rock industry has produced a musical ethic high in cholesterol and additives. Rock music is all about hubris and volume, posturing and preening. It will clog your arteries and ultimately lead to your death. Def Leppard, or perhaps Bon Jovi, being like pure lard.
That said, there is a lot of rock that I love. Much of that comes from the warm fuzzy association with my 1970’s small town adolescence, where big arena rock ruled in my high school parking lot, but I also appreciate the everyman or working class ethic that underlies certain rock musicians, the hubris and testosterone that fuel the giant sound, etc. I can appreciate this aesthetic without wondering why they only play a pentatonic or mixalydian scale in virtually every tune, or why so many guitar-based tunes are in the key of A (it’s because the A power chord on a loud electric guitar is so freaking awesome).
Back to jazz for a moment. I’ve had the following conversation with some of my friends who are serious classical musicians. I see classical music as a sort of artistic fossil. The role of the classical musician is to faithfully translate the written score, including dynamic notation, etc. There may be a little room for individual inflection, but certainly no place for improvisation.
Jazz music is more like DNA. The way jazz tunes are composed, with a head and then sectionswhere the musicians improvise, allows for injection of the spirit of the musician each time it’s played. In this way, the music re-vivifies each time it is performed, infused with the creative life force of the performer.
Alas, nowadays, in our junk food culture, there are few people left who appreciate high art. People read Danielle Steele. They buy paintings by Thomas “Painter of Dreck” Kinkade. They each junk food. Etc. They listen to Kenny G. The sublime, subtle virtuosity of the jazz performer is so far over the head of the average American music listener, truly pearls before swine.
That said, there are rock guitarists who have themselves acheived a high degree of virtuosity as instrumentalists. I’m thinking of the likes of Jimi Hendrix, Robert Fripp, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Adrian Belew. I can think of many others, but name those for brevity. You may not care for the genre of music created by one or more of them, but it’s difficult to argue that they did not reach a high level of virtuosity in terms of their ability to control and play their instruments, as well as their ability to express a wide range of voices and emotions via their playing, at a level that compares with the level of virtuosity of many jazz musicians.
Did you know that Coltrane was a major inspiration for Fripp? In particular, the “sheets of sound” concept was something Fripp specifically emulated. You can hear it, for example, in his solo on Bowie’s “Scary Monsters”. Many have difficulty with Fripp because he embraced harsh, almost angry tonalities and his theory of guitar tuning created a sense of being slightly out of tune (I once heard Fripp deliver a lecture solely focused on his theory of tuning). Also, I would suspect that Fripp’s explorations into complex time signatures — some call it “math rock” — would be a turn-off to you. But if you can step outside your love of diasporic rhythms and appreciate for its own sake the aesthetic of an instrumentalist stretching the envelope of technical performance, Fripp has a lot to offer.
LikeLike
@ Blanc2
Confession! I haven’t read all the recent comments on this thread — just your last one because something popped out at me when I saw this comment:
I haven’t seen “mixolydian” mentioned before except in relation to talk about old Carnatic music, the music of music of South India.
I don’t know the rock references you are talking about, but could you give an example of the form in rock music so that I can understand what you mean?
***
I see you also mention Robert Fripp.
I wonder whether the difficulty “many” may have had with Robert wasn’t only because of the tonality of his playing? It could have started about the time the King Crimson’s bass player, Greg Lake, left to form Emerson, Lake and Palmer and King Crimson was mistakenly perceived as part of the “show off” tendency in Prog Rock:
Robert is more of a nerd than a show off.
At the time this was happening, he was also more into sound lab experiments with Brian Eno rather than stage fireworks.
He also got treated badly by the British press and British audiences.
The business of the Music Business also burned him.
I don’t think he really recovered from all that, and was more interested in other aspects of music and life.
LikeLike
Fripp was certainly a nerd. As mentioned, I once attended a lecture where he devoted an hour or so discussing ideas about guitar tuning.
The mixolydian mode: one of the two modes I was taught by some dude at one of my first jams with my first electric guitar, as I was trying to pick up rock guitar in college after a lifetime of only playing classical. That and the pentatonic scale represent the only scales or modes used in dozens of “classic rock” tunes from the 1970’s, from James Gang to Frampton.
I was at a jam once where a dude whipped out a very “exotic” sounding scale, but quite amazing and beautiful. “What scale was that?”, I asked after the tune. “Oh, that was the clitorian mode,” he quipped.
LikeLike
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpTRTYcWhOo)
Blanc2 , I definitly agree there is some rock that is a higher leval…
as far as odd times, its just that, at that point, you are exiting the concepts and principles of Afro diasporic cultures , and , entering the linear concept, that is expressed to the maximum by North Indian Classical music.
I just think its very important to understand exactly what the differance of these concepts is. I never am judging like one is better than the other, but, I am saying that one concept has a definite principle and result if these principles are practiced, and if you change anything in that concept, you step out of it and dont get the real benifit of those principles…it absolutly becomes something else , with another objective and principle…
amazingly, most musicians have no idea of these differances, have no idea what the real priciples and objectives are and how they are aborted if they are infused with other principles
the clip above is an example of virtuosity in the groove, of Brazilian string instruments..this is seriously in the groove…Afro diasporic..virtuostic
this is why rock for me only goes so far…to be in the middle of some guitar playing like this would be heaven for me..I do play with musicians in Brazil like this, and its like i have to let go of everything I knew and start from square one to get it right…and the rewards are unbeleivable
LikeLike
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBz2idRmjwU)
in all truth and honesty, here is the elephant sitting in the room of the American cultural identity that is as heavy as any jazz, rock, funk, hip hop and is really important to understand that…and it has been around American identiy for a long time
i confess, i cant get throught this clip without breaking up…its that deep and why i didnt really become a rock musician…i started on skin on skin
LikeLike
Blanc2 — omg, that’s funny!
I was hoping you’d direct me to a piece of mainstream rock music that would show me what the mixolydian scale was so that I could understand what you are talking about. I hope you still can.
Whilst I respect that you and BR are having a conversation, explanations can sometimes broaden the conversation in some positive ways.
I’d really appreciate some examples that illustrate your points and arguments.
In the meanwhile, as I am interested to learn and understand what you are talking about, I did check out this Guitar Lesson on the rock mixolydian scale.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5hH-mwdf6M)
Also Robert (Fripp), let’s not forget, was tone-deaf, or at least, he started out that way. He hears in particular kind of way!
What’s more, his way of thinking is a “world-view”, not only a musical one.
His thinking — his philosophy — is pretty “rounded out”.
And although you mention that he was majorly influenced by John Coltrane, European Classical music’s influence may have been greater.
LikeLike
Blanc2, the whole “sheets of sound” thing associated with Coltrane was a critics extremly limited view, and its funny how these critics say uninformed things and pass it off as what is happening..they also called Trane angry in a period where if you look back you see he wasnt angry at all, he was searching and innovating and finding for himself his voice and new directions
the truth about the “sheets of sound” , which is some critics attempt to describe what he heard, is ,Trane was stacking up chords on top of each other…since he is a sax player he is playing one note at a time , so, to stack chords and chord substitutions on top of each other, you have to play these arpegios really fast on top of each other…Trane started taking longer solos for that time also…
By the way, the pentatonic scale and fourths is used a lot in the Miles and Trane modal aproach, but, in the hands of Mccoy Tyner, it sounds a lot differant than Fripp , or any rock, I guarnetee you…pentatonic scales are common in Africa and China..and, harmonicly , with chords, Bartok was using them , i even heard his Concerto for Strings and Percusion and heard his piano chords and said “that sounds like Mccoy Tyner, but, jazz filters western harmony through the black American innovation, the blues and on top of pollyrhythmic swing
That is the thing , these Afro diasporic grooves and dances are the foundation and , to really not lose the principles to get the payoff and treasure, these other influences have to be the slave to the rhythm…many of the mistakes, abherations , watered down concepts happens simply because people start trying to escape the groove , or dont investigate its real principles…it just becomes something else at that point…it doesnt mean it cant be good, but, it wont have the payoff…this is seriously important to understand…and isnt really understood in a big way out here in the music world…I am commited to playing music that will give me that payoff and inner fullfillment…the real riches and treasure
LikeLike
I understand what Trane was doing and I think most people who know the phrase “sheets of sound” in this context also understand that. It’s quite an esoteric point. The people who would bother to know about it know enough about music to understand. Fripp also stacked very rapid arpeggios to create chord-like structures. Though the guitar can be polyphonic, Fripp often plays his with single notes played in very rapid arpeggios. What guitarists appreciate about his technique is that he doesn’t limit himself to stacking these notes “in order” or chromatically. That is, he doesn’t necessarily go from lowest to highest, or vice versa. Instead he “steps” back and forth, starting perhaps with a low note, then a middle note, then one in between the two, then a higher note, etc. It’s incredibly difficult to do this with the right hand, especially at the speeds Fripp deploys.
LikeLike
Bulanik, see the Wiki for a quick intro to the use of Mixolydian in rock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixolydian_mode
LikeLike
BR — I love both of those clips, by the way. Back in the day I hung out with a bunch of Ghanaians and Ivorians who would often break out their drums for a drum circle. It was awesome, especailly when the lovely African ladies would start dancing those hypnotic, booty-shaking dances. My buddy would say: “Imagine living in a place where this is what they do for fun on a Friday night!” Now THAT is an example of a civilized society.
I also understand your sturm und drang with the modern American pop music scene. If the United States has been effective at any one thing, that thing is commodifying pretty much everything that can be commodified. This includes music.
I can clearly recall a day when travelling to different parts of the nation would yield wonderful exposure to a wide variety of regional treats in terms of food, fashion, dialect, etc. Now, pretty much no matter where you go, you see the same bland suburban offerings: Banana Republic, Panera Bread, Best Buy, etc. For some reason, Americans prefer bland sameness over the spice of real human creativity. Maybe it’s out of a sense of safety, I don’t know.
Our culture has done the same thing with music. There was a time when even rock music was played live with sponteneity, where jamming and improvisation were part of any live musical performance. But Americans began at some point to want their live shows to sound exactly like the records, and gradually, through the use of things like MIDI and auto-tune, we have reached a point where this is exactly what we get. Formula-driven popular pabulum.
LikeLike
I can tell you with great certainty, Blanc2, that what Fripp is doing has nothing what so ever to do with what Trane was doing…I apreciete you saying he was influenced by Trane, but he didnt really get it…which is a question most of us white musicians influenced by the Afro diaspora need to ask.
Did we ever get it in the first place?
That phrase was coined in his Giant Steps period , this was before the modal period, and that was part of a golden age that most all rockers sluffed over and couldnt begin to play…Fripp couldnt touch swinging over Giant Steps
It can confuse people to make these comparisons, hey, a lot of people were influenced by Trane, but really couldnt come close to aproximating what he was doing…he had differant sides, too, and people have to be clear what period they are talking about, the Giant Step chord aproach ,modal modern jazz, still swinging , or free time avant guarde…
LikeLike
@ Blanc 2, what you said was:
I consider that to be a really interesting remark, and I remain curious about what you mean because I wanted to know how that ethic and hubris you mention is communicated in rock guitar-playing. I’d simply like to know more about this.
So far, you’ve told me about a time you were watching a guy do his clitorian technique and guided me to look up a Wikipedia article. Neither answer really explains your meaning: it wasn’t a quick intro I was seeking, as I had an inkling of what this was from Indian music.
I don’t mind if it’s something that’s not easy to put into words, I can understand that. However, I believe my interest in your commentary warrants a more thought-out reply.
Thank you.
*
A side note re Robert (Fripp) and his playing technique:
It’s difficult especially so if the player is right-handed. Robert isn’t.
He’s a left-hander, who plays guitar right-handed– as you know — and though it’s difficult to do it, he “hangs” his hand over the strings for faster movement.
I suppose left-handed people develop high motor skills and strength in their non-dominant hand — and perhaps surpass the standard for a naturally right-handed person — through intense practice.
LikeLike
Bulanik, I’d love to dialogue more but life pressure prevents me from devoting time/attention to this. I rarely post for that reason, and when I do it is sometimes offhand quips and jokes like the “clitorian” mode.
I didn’t know Fripp is left-handed but plays right-handed. I am also left-handed and play right-handed. Many of us lefties do lots of things right-handed. It’s because our parents, generally right-handed, teach stuff to us.
LikeLike
Fair enough, Blanc2. I take an interest in stringed instruments as someone I know plays one (the oud), and is not a stranger to Robert.
We probably all have life pressures, work, commitments, contracts, family and so on, so I see what you mean. I just saw you posted a number of comments above, I thought you might have answered me in the same way.
No worries. Another time. 😀
LikeLike
In various statements I have made recently about the few blog commentators who have some knowledge of jazz , I always include your name..always…
You do not do that, that I’ve seen. There is a comment up thread that I had to read three times, or so, because it seemed to be crediting me with knowledge and appreciation for Jazz, it was surprising to see, since it came from you. The date of the comment is, interestingly, after I had asked for some of my musically oriented comments to be restored, for instance the Miles Davis thread. Also, there is no need to mention me in your pontifications, thanks.
quite frankly , Legion, you have insulted me on various occasions , you dont deserve my respect after your condescending put downs
That’s fine. It brings us full circle to this:
LikeLike
this came on the radio today it opened up a new channel of conversation; i changed the fm radio station after thinking for like 3 seconds about this thread etc
LikeLike
[…] “sexual” which meant that attacking them wasn’t rape (the Rolling Stones even wrote a song about it.) It was the innate inferiority of black people, their “black culture”, that confined […]
LikeLike