Guest post by commenter B.R.:
Miles Davis (1926-1991), American jazz great, is arguably one of the greatest American musicians of all time. At his height from the 1950s to the early 1970s, he was intimately involved with changing the face of jazz at least four times, helping to create bebop, cool jazz, modal jazz and jazz fusion. By any stretch of the imagination, he is a genius.
The son of a dentist, he grew up in East St Louis. At 13 his father gave him a trumpet:
I was minding my own business when something says to me, “you ought to blow trumpet.” I have just been trying ever since.
A child prodigy, his mastery of the instrument accelerated as he came under the spell of older jazzmen Clark Terry, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Billy Eckstine, and others who passed through. He accepted admission to the Juilliard School in 1944, but it was a ruse to get to New York and hook up with Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. Miles was 18. Cool.
Within a year, he accomplished his goal. He can be heard on sessions led by Parker that were released on Savoy in 1945 (with Max Roach). His years on 52nd Street during the late 1940s brought him into the bop orbit of musicians whose legends he would share before he was 25.
With Parker he changed the face of jazz from “Swing Era” to “Be-Bop”.
Later, with arranger Gil Evans, he created “Cool Jazz”.
“Kind Of Blue”, indisputably the coolest jazz album ever recorded, was done in 1959 with the second edition of Miles’ “first great quintet” – John Coltrane, Paul Chambers, Cannonball Adderley, Bill Evans, and Jimmy Cobb. They stayed together until 1961.
Miles’ “second great quintet” slowly coalesced over 1963-64, into the lineup of Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, and Tony Williams (who was 17 years old when he joined Miles). They recorded with producer Teo Macero and toured the world together until 1968, achieving artistic and commercial success that was unprecedented in modern jazz. They experimented with new ways to approach time within familiar structures and song forms.
The week after the Woodstock festival in August 1969 Davis recorded “Bitches Brew” with the final small group known as the “third great quintet” – Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea, Dave Holland, and Jack DeJohnette.
In the early 1970s Davis helped to launch the jazz-rock fusion movement. His health began to decline in the late 1970s but he continued to work till the early 1980s.
He was married briefly to Betty Davis in the late 1960s. He lost her to Jimi Hendrix. In the 1980s was married to Cicely Tyson.
Miles Davis was no stranger to racism. He and his bandmates, these absolute geniuses, the ambassadors of one of the highest cultural expression the United States has produced, were subjected to the most humiliating treatment, on the road, and at home, especially when traveling in the deep South. But even in New York Miles Davis was beat up by the police for “loitering”.
See also:
From the First Great Quintet:“So What” from “Kind of Blue” with John Coltrane on sax, Paul Chambers on bass, Wynton Kelly on piano, Jimmy Cobb on drums:
From the Second Great Quintet: “Joshua” (1964) with Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Tony Williams:
From the Third Great Quintet: “Spanish Key” from “Bitches Brew” (early fusion jazz):
Oh my gosh, Bulanik , how conveniant to have a thread we can discuss exactly what we were talking about
So now I can make my point that, Miles Davis will be studied into the next century, at least what I can tell you right now that music institutions the world over are studying Miles Davis and other jazz musicians because they have so much depth in their music.They dont study rock and roll at most of them because there just isnt that much musical depth in it compared to jazz
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Miles Davis in unbeleivible. Talk about a black American that I idolise , admire, emulate his music , and , look to for inspiration, he, and his many incredible colleagues are a great example…
I will make a confesion………I am a jazz musician ( actucaly I play many styles, but, jazz is one of the top passions)
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And , I want to thank Abagond for doing this, some of the words are mine but he put it together very nicely with words from Miles bio and other sources. I really apreciete him putting it up on what I consider a great blog and I thimk Miles is a fantastic subject for here.
By the way, Im the old B. R. who was banned for dog fighting with someone on here ( I like your new picture, Leigh), I was out of line and deserved it, and, I thank you Abagond for allowing me back on.Ive been following the blog all the time
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Great stuff! I love jazz and love Miles (in just about all of his different styles).
My older relatives were not crazy about his late sixties/early seventies “electric” period but I enjoyed much of that stuff too. I can just put on “Dark Magus” and go to another world for a while.
If I remember the information from the bio correctly Miles was beaten up by NYPD for “loitering” outside of a rental property that he owned.
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When I was in college back in the Middle Ages (1970s) I had a friend (white) who was into all kinds of music, including a lot of jazz and jazz fusion. He turned me on to Miles Davis, among others. I still have my Bitches Brew LP, which I used to listen to often. I think I may come tonight, dust that thing off, and see how it sounds. My current stereo is much better than what I had back then…..fer sure!!!
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Should read “may come home tonight”…..oh, dear !!
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Beautiful post. There is so much that has been written about Miles (and company), but so much more that is yet to be studied and written. These men were genius in every sense of the word. Arguably, they represent America’s only meaningful contribution to High Art. Ever. In history.
Just one tiny tidbit. In “Kind of Blue”, Miles began experimenting with modal harmonies. He would play a long note on the major third, then a long note on the flatted third (which is considered the primary “blues” note), thus creating disharmony/dissonance that his rhythm section had to attempt to solve harmonically. In this and myriad other ways, Miles was known for constantly testing, pushing, expanding the envelope of what was then accepted theory with respect to chords, melody and harmony. He literally synthesized new knowledge about these areas. Musicians around the world have been digesting and using this knowledge ever since.
As to the execrable treatment that Miles and other jazz greats suffered in our racist nation, again much has been written, but one of my favorite quips was by Miles himself, on the Arsenio Hall show. Arsenio asked Miles about a famous quip attributed to him, something to the effect of “If I knew I had only one day left to live, I’d want to spend it strangling a white man.” Arsenio asked Miles if he actually felt that way. Miles: “No. I’d want at least a week.”
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Shady, absolutly, he was beaten by New York police :
http://milesdavis.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/the-miles-davis-movie-filming-the-birdland-attack/
Ive read Miles auto biography and Malcolm x. There are many similarities to their lives as black Americans in that era facing horrible racism…the worst..they bore the brunt of heavy racism so that there could be change
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.. and Shady , thanks for your comments on the music, I love the before the fusion transition the most but I also love those fusion periods also. I played with Marcus Miller for a quick minute with Walter Bishop Jr , who worked with Miles in the be bop period, and , Marcus is a master musician and can play all styles
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Bliff, my man !!
great post Blanc 2
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Speaking of Arcenio Hall and Miles Davis, and the unbeleivable influence he has had on me and my collegues, here I am in a youtube with Arcenio Hall music director , Michael Wolff, and SNL sax master Alex Foster and Tony Cimorosi , with the first cut we are doing is “Ginger Bread Man” by Jimmy Heath that we all heard on “Miles Smiles” one of his classic records .
that is my wife , who I will be celibrating our 25 th annivercary in a fewdays , showing how jazz comes from Afro diasporic roots and our son kicking it on the vocals after the Miles tune
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I still have Sketches of Spain. Along with Birth of the Cool, it’s my favourite album.
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Now, check out Miles doing it with his group touring
We did a version more like the record except we changed the form to 12 bars on the solo, Miles tags an extra 4 bars to the 12 bars and that is slick
Notice how , after they played kind of like us on the record, by the time they are touring, they are stetchint the time , pushing the limits , exploring new ways to play it…that was the major factor of that group and why they were so innovating
blanc 2 ill expand on what you said later
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here it is
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@B.R
here I am in a youtube
Which one are you?
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Beatiful, Truthbetold…shows that Miles spanned many different expresions of jazz
I just read that one of his wives , Francine ( ill get the full name later) told Miles he had to see some Flamenco, he didnt like it before, as soon as he got back from the Flamenco concert, he ran out and bought every Flamenco record he could, then called Gil Evans ( Miles was an equal oportunity employer) and they put that record together
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Im the drummer, Demerera !!
Yes, Blanc 2, Miles, and his marvelous contemoraries like John Coltrane, wanted to get away from restricting chord changes that tied them into following the chord progresion. They started using modes to dictate the form, and those modes ( because modes can be any group of notes to form a scale), and they wanted to use more pentatonic scales witch are in abundance in ss Africa. After they wrote tunes that used those modes, the next step like the group above, stared letting the drummer introduce pollyrhythms, another ss African concept…they wanted to allow for more free expresion andmore powerful rhythms…. pretty soon they abandoned form and went free for maximum expresion unbeleivible
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…meant to say “they started using more modes to dictate the form and those modes they used , were more pentatonic scales….”
Bulanik…..Miles was suposed to get together with Jimi Hendrix, dont think it happened, he did get with Prince I think
Looks like in that article they are filming a movie about MIles, but, Ive heard that rumor a lot….I think Don Cheadle (sp?) is involved
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Bulanik, thank you …I want to reiterate how much you have educated me on here
yes , I asked Abagond if he wanted to do one and I would help all I could
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@ B.R.
I can see in todays music, (rock and roll, country and pop) that Miles’ crew had a great influence. Of course they changed around a few chords and sped up the tempo, but it’s there.
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@ B.R.
Wait a minute….
You’re the drummer!!!!!
Holy cow!
I’m impressed!
What was it like with Miles the Great?
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Unfortunatly, I have to cut out and do some business, for about 8 hours, so, I hate leaving this conversation, but Ill hook in as soon as I get back
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Thanks again for the post B.R. I love all sorts of music but have a special appreciation for jazz as it was my father’s fave. It is really good to get knowledge from a participant. I talk about jazz not infrequently on my blog. Love to have you or anyone stop by on the jazz posts.
http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2012/03/music-reviews-pharoah-sanders-pirates.html
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Qickly, Truthbetold, sorry to mislead you, Im the drummer on the youtube, that has Micheal Wolff and Alex Foster doing a Miles song
I have played with a few people that played with Miles, Walter Bishop Jr, Marcus Miller, Sonny Sharrock, and some others
Bulanik, I apologise for what I said about rock, unfortunatly, Im biased
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ill check it out for sure, Shady…
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@B.R
I take it your wife is one of the dancers?
25 years – congratulations. A few more years to go for me but I certainly hope to be making sweet music with hubby for as long and even longer than this too 🙂
Thank you for sharing this on here – I am always honoured when people are open enough to share some personal and private part of their lives in this way. May I ask, are you a musician for a living?
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B.R.
I love your clip. Send me an e-mail and I’ll forward a clip of my son rocking the drums to a Bill Bruford tune (“Beelezebub”). My son loves jazz fusion, such as the Cobham and Narada Michael Walden era Mahavishnu, Zappa, etc., all of which owes a giant debt to Miles.
As to “Kind of Blue”, do you get the pun in the title? How Miles plays a major third, then a minor third, the blue note. In other words, he is using blues tonalities for part of the melody, but not all of it. Kind of blue.
There was a movie I saw years ago, I forget the name, but one of the characters was an urban African American kid who grew up playing organ in church (of course his dad was the preacher) but then branched out into jazz. Since many church songs are played in G, the Bb (that’s “B flat”) would be the blues note. In the film, his father forbade him from playing a Bb. He called it “the devil’s note”.
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By the way Agabond can give you my e-mail. With some of the trolls on other threads I’d rather not publish it on the blog.
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Great comments here, I want to address each of you, of course, blanc2, any communication by anyone who wants to know more about my music, its fine for me if abagond will let it.
Bulanik, so much to talk to you about, Ill address some here.Yes about the women, in Europe , the scarves, his wives, actualy there were 4, I apologise to Abagond, I have a DVD , We, Want Miles, and all I had to do was sit down with a pen and write down the info…right about the covers and his wives, he said he wanted his women, a black woman , on his covers rather than any old white women, guess what, I copied him and put my wife on a cover of one of my CD”s just like one of his…later on Ill try to bring that in, Ill need more time, but , I want to talk about Miles , there is so much to talk about, so much interesting things, right about the style, Ill get back to you on this…
Demerera, thank you so much, that is my wife, and, she is an incredible Afro Brazilian dancer. The depth of the meaning for me to work with her when she is dancing is unbeleivable , and its a theme I will expand on later related to getting the feeling in jazz and how Miles , with all of his formal education, they all could read and compose, was trying to get free and feel more.I have earned my living for all my life, I have had some minor successes that have enabled me to save a little and invest. Im 62, and, the fight still goes on. I play jazz concerts, bossa / samba ( I live in Brazil, and I actualy revealed myself on this blog a long while back so I at least know Ive already done it here) , shows with my son and wife, we use break dancers sometimes or passistas,Im not rich but , by god, at my age, I cant rest on the past, and that makes me still feel young. That youtube was a year ago
blanc2, great information , you obviously have some harmonic knowledge, are you a musician ? Remember, Im a drummer , I write songs, but , I depend on great musicians to flush out my ideas, I know my limits, but drums, congas , bongos, Brazilian percusion, tremendous affinity for ss African drumming etc. I want to address more the mode thing in another post soon…Lets talk about Miles , there is so much intreresting stuff about him
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Truthbetold brought up two wonderful records, Flamenco Sketches and Birth of the Cool….they used Gil Evans arrangements and they represented a kind much more relaxed style. The Birth of the Cool even has it in the title and it starte the cool school and West Coast sound.Miles could absolutly play marvelous ballads, very romantic and sensitive, his sound was very special for that and noted by critics, He was great on a hamon mute on his trumpet. This is wonderful because I am always going to be talking about how I love the hot Miles Miles said he loved the drums and cymbals blasting his face at really fast up tempos,Bliff mentiond Bitches Brew, a totaly differant aproach.
and that is the thing, Miles changed so much, he was always on the cutting edge, he was visionary and he was changing the face of music as he went along. He used the best musicians and really let them play, not tell them what to do…later on he would direct more, but those early bands werer the cream of the crop. and he hired all colors of people , very multi cultural and international.
Flamenco sketches, made use of these Spanish modes , like i said, modes could be any group of notes put together as a scale. It can be an Arabian Scale, or a Spanish scale , or a pentatonic more African scale.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer_(Miles_Davis_album)
http://www.brazucacds.com.br/cds.php?id=139
Bulanik, see how I copied Miles here ? He is my idol
Ill check that DVD and break down some of what I hear. They address what you said, you might have seen it
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Bulanik, you are so right about Miles and his good looks and fasion style. Look at this, 6 pages of fantatic pictures of Miles !!
http://www.lastfm.com.br/music/Miles+Davis/+images
By the way I just want to say to everyone, I brought in my CD cover on a Brazilian site rather than an American site because I dont want to apear to be selling product on here. Its against this blog policy, I know that , so, anything I bring in about me or a youtube is strictly in the interest of how it relates to Miles , like how huge an influence he was on me and my collegues
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Thank you Bulanik, hope you are enjoying some of those pictures of Miles. You were so right about his fasion statements. Im going to get back to you about the French woman you mentioned. There was another significant European in his life also besides probably lots of girl freinds. As you so eloquently stated in your reports of Europe, it is more relaxed dating atitudes.As you see, in that article about the police, in New York, he was walking a white woman to a taxi and then got harrassed. Miles, and so many more black American jazz musicians really liked that atmosphere you are talking about. These are highly skilled talented indivuduals , who perform in front of audiences. They just want to be able to interact with the world in a natural way as far as attracting women , or men if it is a female jazz artist (ESPERANZA SPALDING!!! she is so cool, catch her if anyone can ). Miles felt free in France and other places in Europe.
Shady—saw your site . Loved the article on Pharoh Sanders
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Bulanik, just saw the post about Stravinski, absolutly, and , people like Bartok. Bartok, I heard him for the first time and said ” wow that sounds like Mccoy Tyner ( piano player for John Coltrant)
These great jazz musicians, many classicly trained but not all, were taking the most advanced 20th century harmony and filtering it through the blues and a heavy swinging beat that steadily became stonger and more Africanly pollyryhthmic , and opening it up for the maximum facility to improvise their feelings. They were trying to free up stuctures and chord progresions, to be able to express more freely and rhythimicly
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Even at the beginning of jazz , acording to Ken Burns and Wynton Marsalis, the Jim Crow laws forced classicly trained black American musicians to play with rural blues players so right then there was a deep blues style with influences of sophisticated classical musicly informed swinging music for dancers
New Orleans in the early 1800’s was really a port in the Caribean. The heavy Caribean influence from places like Trinidad and Jamaica and Cuba , and they would let drumming and dancing go on in Congo Square , probably a lay over from French rule. It was differant than a whole lot of other places in the south. Throw in marching bands at funerals , going down sad and coming back fast and happiar, brothel piano players like Jelly Roll Morton, players like Buddy Bolden, Sydny Bichet, Louis Armstrong etc and the recipe for jazz took off
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Thanks for reading, B.R. This is a very interesting discussion !
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I agree , Shady, and as long as anyone wants to talk about Miles, jazz, its black American roots and the importance of it for America and the world, I could go on a long time. Its great to include art , and lets face it, in America,black American music is the soul of American culture. And black American jazz musicians understood and were on the receiving end of white American racism, including as Blanc pointed out, the church tried to demonify jazz music.
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I just want to paint a picture of how hip the scene Miles Davis was in in New York. One of his wives ( I still will check out that DVD and break down the wives story) Francais Davis, was actualy dancing for the production of West Side story with choreographer Jerome Robbins . That is a big deal, because the musical went on to huge success on Broadway, with Tony’s and everything and went on to huge movie fame with people like Rita Moreno who had an affair with Marlon Brando, who was studying dance with Kathurine Dunham , who , because I was touring with a dance company, in East St Louis, our choreographer had danced with her, brought us to the Dunham dance studio she had started there, she wasnt at the studio but who was there, Vernon Davis , Miles’s brother.
So , Miles told Fancais that he didnt want her to dance with the company and forced her to stop , which is really too bad because that show went on to huge success. Miles wasnt too great with his women. His first wife from East ST Louis put him in jail at one point when they were living in Brooklyn, for lack of child support.He also picked up a nasty heroin habit. For some strange reason, the be-bop jazz comunity, be-bop being one of the most extraordinary music developements of all time in America, produced a very high number of heroin addicts. Miles did eventualy kick his habit going back to his father’s place. They say in this period that Miles was a pimp and one of the great trumpet players , Clarck Terry, who was a mentor and od freind from East St Loius, saw Miles strung out on the street and took him to his apartment and left for a minute. When he got back, Miles had ripped him off….Miles was also in a devastating car accident and Herbie Hancock talks of him in that period with that group of playing with great pain. That group was dealing with quantum physics out on the stage every night, pushing the boundries of music where it had never gone and Miles is up there playing this genius music in great pain….that is heavy stuff
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BR, I play guitar and bass. As a kid growing up in a tiny Iron Range town, I was the oddball in my high school because I played classical guitar, which I continued playing in college and to this day. But in college (late 70’s and early 80’s) I discovered the MC5, The Stoogest, The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Clash, etc. I got an electric guitar and started banging out this kind of music in dark sweaty clubs in my college town. Though the music is simplistic and easy to play compared to classical, the one element that was new to me was playing with an ensemble, trying to blend with other musicians. Classical guitar is primarily a solo instrument. From there I began playing whatever music I got a chance to play. I’ve been in funk bands, rock bands, reggae, bluegrass, “folk & roll” or “alt.country”, etc.
I always knew jazz music in my heart because my father was a huge jazz afficionado and we listened to a lot of jazz on our family “hi-fi” when I was growing up. In my 20’s I began meeting jazz musicians and started my journey learning about jazz music.
That will be a lifelong journey for me. After my kids were born I stopped playing in bands. I just don’t have the time to commit to rehearsals, etc. Now I practice on my classical guitar most days, a mix of classical and jazz. For example, I just learned that great tune by Joe Raposo, but made famous by a Muppet: “Bein’ Green”.
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Late one night after a long jam, an old bluesman staggered over, bottle of E&J (which he called “Erky Jerky”) in hand, and said to me: “You know the difference between jazz and blues, don’t you? In jazz, you might raise your thirds or flat your fifths, but in blues you flat your thirds and drink your fifths.”
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Over time jazz music, especially bop, will undoubtedly be treated like “classical” music among musicians in terms of its historic importance to the advancement of music.
However, there is an important distinction. In “classical” music, all of the information necessary for the performance is contained in the score. There is some leeway for individual interpretation, but the performer is contrained to play the notes and otherwise follow the musical instructions of the composer through every measure of the piece. In this way, “classical” music is a bit like a fossil. Beautiful and intricate and wondrous, without doubt, but frozen in time and space.
In jazz music, there are sections unwritten, where the performer is expected to improvise. In this way, jazz remains a vital, living artform, revivified by each performance. In this way, jazz can never become a fossil.
It’s like the difference between asexual and sexual reproduction. Classical music is asexual. It reproduces itself without a mate. Jazz music requires a mate, but it rewards the mate with an opportunity to witness and participate in its new life.
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blanc2 , great stroy about your experiances and you raise some great points and things to examine, i could do a couple of posts about what you are saying so here goes one :
great comparison between jazz and classical music. as you stated, once you got out there , you had to learn all the differant grooves , almost all Afro diasporic, millions of things to say about that down the line The bottom line , you have to hold down your part in the groove with the other rhythm section player, while someone sings or plays on top . Its usualy grooves that were originaly for dancing but a lot of people dont dance anymore.
In classical, the composer composes and the instrumentalists execute what is written. For sure there is plenty of ways to interpret that written music , they have obviously ways to judge how someone plays , but, in comparison to floating a monster groove down peoples scalp, with the freedom to change your aproach a little here and there every night depending on how you feel, is a whole differant world, its a world that the fundimentals are right in most ss African drum choirs. About people holding their grooves and someone solo’s over the top. I look on it like a gymnastics event compared to a basketball game. A gymnist executes his pre figured out exercise and in basketball, you have some pre arranged things but once the ball is in play you are improvising a lot.
I cant emphasie enough how Miles and Coltrane, and the people in their groups, were all good readers and composers, but, they were trying to simplify their music to open up the music for full expresion , yet keeping monster grooves and making them more powerful with pollyrhythms. I dont think I remembe seeing Miles live and he had a music score in front of him.
Good luck on your music. Great you played a bunch of styles. I have played all styles too, if anyone is curious of my resume, they can figure out my name from my youtube , Im not Mike, Alex , Tony , or Mr E, and google my name and lookfor ” Jazz Encyclipedia, I didnt really go into detail when Demerera asked me, I kind of said what Im doing now, but, Ive done range of things in the major cities like New York, Chicago, Rio . Later Id like to go into my early experiances and tell how I found out about MIles Davis and who turned me on to the best Miles stuff
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Blanc2, great post, my long post just got swallowed by my horrible computor so Ill try agian.(always cut and paste, always cut and paste)
Good luck on your music, I felt that you had some experiance. I like your experiances as a classical music start and then , starting to play out on gigs and realising you had to learn all those basicly Afro diasporic grooves. All these basic groove principles are fundimentals of most sub Sahara African drum choirs . You can put the most profound European harmony on top , or Chines scales, it still is set on an Afro diasporic foundation.
I look on classical music as like a gymnast executing his pre set exercise, and trying to nail it. I look on basketball as going in with some pre conceived plans but once the ball is in play, there is a lot of improvisation.
I cant emphasise enough how all those players in MIles bands co8ld read and compose music, but , they were trying to simplivy their music so that there was more expresion agaisnt a very powerful /afro diasporic groove that got more powrful with pollyrhtymic aproaches, I dont think I remember Miles having music charts on the live performances I saw
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Sorry people , my lower paragraphs get blocked when I type so Im without radar and it comes out really funny sometimes
Blanc2, I play a lot of styles also, I kind of told Demerera what Im doing now ( by the way , Dem , super good luck with your hubby)and not my past, which I did a little of everything. If anyone wants to see a dated resume they can figure out my name on the youtube I brought in of me, Im not Alex, Mike , Tony or Mr E, and google my name and look for “Jazz Encyclipedia” for something that doesnt cover my last 8 years or so.
But, just to tell you how I started digging on Miles, I started playing bongos at 8, I was really into African drumming records, jazz that I heard on the B side of and Art Blakey record , a fantastic jazz drummer. One side was lots of drummers and percusionists and the other side was pure swing jazz and I loved it right away. My dad got the sound track to the fantastic film Black Orpheus, it had the original percusion from the escolas, and lots of Cuban music and Calypso by Harry Belafonte. I remember one day just working around the house and had jazz radio on, I must have been about 10, and, Im sure Kind of Blue came on, and I thought that was really cool. Then one day, I was over at freinds house with his sister and they knew I liked jazz so they put on their parents record ( like your parents , Shady, and they we, it was Milre black American so, it was how I heard this really hip record by miles) , it was Miles Smiles, and that is quantum physics, so I didnt really understand it, but, something made me like it a lot and knew it was deep. But I didnt run out and buy it.
So, I started playing congas and bongos in a bunch of bands and you know you dont really play that for rock or pop bands back then, so it was integrated or all black bands playing James Brown covers and soul music. This was 66 or so.So I started playing in all black bands and playing on the south and wwest side of Chicago in large black neihborhoods, and , that was incredible blessings for me, the experiances were just profoundly soulful and deep
Eventualy, one band had a trumpet player and sax player that were the real deal jazz musicians just making money playing some funk. I took to them real fast, and the trumpet player turned me on to “Four and More”, all this up tempo Miles with Tony Williams the drummer just tearing up…I never looked back. Black American musicians turned me on to the music that would affect my life the most, that is something very meaningful for me, it affects everything I am today
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” like your parents , Shady, and they we, it was Milre black American so, it was how I heard this really hip record by miles) , it was Miles Smiles, and that is quantum physics, so I didnt really understand it, but, something made me like it a lot ”
I would like to try that agian :
it was like with your parents , Shady, and they were black American (trying to indicate where this fonte of culture was comimg from) and it was Miles Smiles and that is quantum physics so I didnt really understand it
whew is that better ? my gosh my computor is messing with me
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I think I get you B.R. =)
I like all kinds of music and I don’t want to invite you rag on anyone but if you could, could you briefly explain some of the differences between a “jazz” drummer and a “rock” drummer, to the extent that they exist? What are we hearing when we listen to say Tony Williams or Max Roach that is done differently by a John Bonham or Ian Paice. What makes music swing?
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Blanc2, great question, Ive been trying to give it a go on the American Privilege thread, actualy thanks for the chance to talk about it here, so I wont take them off subject….I can refer them to here
Lets at least start from the beginning…Jazz invented the drum kit, the beat and rhythm of jazz was an innovating liberating thing in American music, nothig like it had been seen before…
Grasp what that means in terms of history, drums and dances were banned from slaves, the hub that sub Sahara Africa revolves around, was banned from the people who were dragged out of their world and thrown brutily into their new destination
Brazil and Cuba and Haiti actualy retained their culture, or hid it behind the Catholic Saints, each one depicting diety in their religions, Candomble, Santera and Voodoo with blatent origins in their mother tribes.The USA banned this culture, yes, it surfaced in the Gosple, Blues, chain gangs, Cake walk, Rag time and those Carolina Islands have great preserved culture that goes back to slave times, and then there was Congo Square and the New Orleans aproach to marching funeral bands and their carnival traditions etc In this atomsphere, someone like Baby Dodds evolved the first incredible drum expresions and it was like 400 years of banned call responce rhythm came pouring out of him….Ill continue as I catch my breath…..
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….(inhaling a deep breath trying to be careful what I say in case Bulanik is watching, by the way, Bulanik, the Stones use the third funky bass player with Miles after Marcus Miller, Daryl Jones…)
So , started the incredible story of jazz drum set history ( I meant that above, with Baby Dodds, its drum set using four limbs because of pedals, not drums)
Early drum sets used European snare technique ( yet as I pointed out somewhere there is a drum with one gut across the bottom for the snare effect that came way way way before , Africa is the mother of the drums), and Chinese toms , certainly an influence from the Chinese labor brought over..and the drum set was for the orchestra poit as well as jazz, and Europeand snare techiques were part of the drum executions….dep breath, I will continue
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Bulanik, thank you for coming here and I am so glad you asked and guess what? Miles Davis used a tabla player from India, I am sorry I dont remember his name, my collegue Mike Wolff in my youtube above used him in his group, also. So, of course, Indian tablas and the incredible history and their way of seeing rhythm is definitly on the table hear to look at…and, that means exactly what makes it differant from the sub sahara Africa duple triple call responce groove oriented drum dance concept is on the table also. And, that is going to take a lot of deep posts and exchanges between us , its something that I have been pondering for my whole life and I have some deep theories about it…..and…yes, they are mine, and the conclusions I will lead you to will be astouding and provokative, and, its all about Miles Davis ,too, at least he is one of the visionaries that helped to lead to that conclusion…Ill also finish the rock drum question, it all fits in…
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Miles used Indian tablas in his group,at one time also. So, of course, Indian tablas and the incredible history and their way of seeing rhythm is definitly on the table hear to look at…and, that means exactly what makes it differant from the sub sahara Africa duple triple call responce groove oriented drum dance concept is on the table also. And, that is going to take a lot of deep posts and exchanges between us , its something that I have been pondering for my whole life and I have some deep theories about it…..and…yes, they are mine, and the conclusions I will lead you to will be astouding and provokative, and, its all about Miles Davis ,too, at least he is one of the visionaries that helped to lead to that conclusion…Ill also finish the rock drum question, it all fits in…
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(Ill tie this all up about the rock drum question, Branc2, Bulanik is very adept at raising compelling questions that need to be addressed)
So, Bulanik, I hope I have conveyed that I am awed by Indian rhythms and culture, yet, the Afro Brazilian concepts have my attention now ( and I always have my bebop , yes and my sons funk break james brown cop the splits break hip hop style also).
Yes, what was it “Veda” or something, sans script, Im no expert but my primitive reseach sais something close to 4000 years they started wording on the “talas”. The tablas actualy came through Afghanistan many years later, and actualy originated from Turkey.
Ues, from Turkey , through the Middle East, this concept of ryhythm that they have and evolved that eventualy North India had a classical music that is equal to the depth of any culture anywhere. This concept where the beat is based on the phrase , the count, like you could have a linear phrase that has seven beats and we accent 5 every time. We can improvise over that line, but we have to accent the 5 to define its linear story..this is paraphrasing what Zakir Husein sais about Indian concepts, and sub Sahara African concepts are based off of duple triple call respnce syncopated conceptsDoes this sound Ok for you up to this point?i
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Bulanik, I will just address the last post you brought in because I was typing and I also will wait for you to see if what I described above makes any sence.I would love to slowly look at this to really define what the differance from the concepts of India are and the concepts from the countries in Africa that have the most roots in the African diaspora…..
That is my question for you, what are the differances in drum dance concepts from the Afro diasporic and their slave roots in Africa, and the India north and south concepts? Open to anyone
Trilok , incredible, are you sure he played with MIles? Joe Zawinul is not Miles, but, Badal Roy played with Miles on a vew records, really good stuff check out ON the Corner. But hip me if Trilok played with him. Trilok also played with Michael Wolff , the guy in the yiutube I brought in abovem the piano player
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Corection, Badal Roy played with Michael Wolff the guy in the youtube I brought in above
And I had said that before the new youtube came in, Ill check it out and let me know if that question makes sence to you so we can find agreement to go on about the age of the drum
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….I havent seen that yet but I already know of the phenominal way that the Indian’s vocalise and auralise their traditions. The swing sence that Ella is dealing with , is that the same as the Indian concept?
What is the differance from the sub Sahara African drum dance concept , from the Indian drum dance concepts ? Is that a valid question for you ?
This isnt a question of what is better. As a matter of fact, Indian talas and concepts win hands down for complexity in the world. Do you think you can feel them the same way as the polly rhythmic African diassporic concept of call responce, groove from begining to end? The groove that Miles Davis uses in the first video from Kind of Blue ? If there is, and there is in South India , which is groove concious, is the dance concept the same ?
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Bulanik, thank you for your description , and, I agree, India is one of the epicenters of ryhthm concepts. I am glad you mentioned these philosophies and customs, because as we go here, in a nut shell , I am going to try to explain that the fundimental concepts of the Afro diasporic concepts and the roots they came from are what informs the deep swing of Miles Davis , and the concepts of how they improvise, because you know the Indian concept improvises also,
In a nutshell and we can disect this ( gosh Im not expert like Adam, and Hamid on there knowledge of Sufi and Indian concepts, but I know about Afro Brazilian more than them, Im working with one of the best) Indian concept in rhythm is linear and sub Sahara is polly rhythmic. Indian concepts use pollyrhythms, they use every thing know they are the math complex geniuses, but they use pollyryhthmic concepts as accents, they execute them and then are off to the next incredible demonstration of virtuostic display
The pollyrhythmic concept of AFro diasporic is groove you to death all night , holding the the parts , creating a life of its own CREATING A LIFE OF ITS OWN……that is important, 4 people hold down the groove and a soloist goes on top and riffs a solo over a repetid groove, a rhythm section in So What walks the bass against a splang a lang repetitive groove the whoe tune with the groove the main the whole thing , and a guy rips a solo on top…you dont think it, you feel it to death…the Indian concept, you do have to think it through, it is that complex its not simple, So What is incredibly simple
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Bulanik, Im so happy with your comments about dance, and you seem to be aluding to the layes of complexities that the Indian concept uses ( of course we are generalising, to break down tribes would be enourous, and yes , north Africa is differant concept, remember, the Arab concept relates to the concept that arrived to India of the tabla and some linear concepts to join what they already had,but north Africa also has gnawa (sp?) and references to sub sahara.)
What I want to say about working with Afro Brazilian dance, espcialy the Candomble which you can see in that video, we are dealing with a call responce 6/8 polly rhythm with a repeated cadence based on a bell pattern with serious African roots of her diaspora roots. Its got a shuffle step that is a repeated theme in so many of the Afro diasporic cances, its got pelvic contraction , another incredible concept of Afro diasporic concepts of her roots, all with a syncopation meant to flow in time with the beat that is powerfully repeated yet riffed on by the soloist with her movements. I can tell you that , in truth, we are deep in a trance connection, but not just any trance, its a trance based directly on the concepts that were developed by these roots Im talking about. As you say, these customs come from many things, because Africans have told me that the religous elemens use these concepts they didnt invent them, they are a force on their own that can be used for many things in their customs. And, it is shear geniius, and it is exactly that genius that informs Miles Davis, in that particular song, because he has explored other ways also. This in no way diminishes the Indian customs, it just is expaining the differance, and for me it is a profound thing and a deep force, to enter the groove and feel it. feel it , that is a big thing of what Miles Davis is about
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My youtube report, only because its important to see your youtubes.I am hampered by my computor , it takes e a while to hook the youtubes, but they are essential to our discusion
First, Im sad you would think I hate Indian music, a year ago I went to bed for a couple of months with Zakir Husein in my ear phones
Ok, your you tubes are fantastic, thank you very much for giving me some cool moments.First of all, yeah Trilok, one of those guys who goes back and forth with ease . This is a funk groove, when he gets to gether with Mcglaoclin, they go the other way into the complex areas.
The second one is incredible and it really just proves exactly the concepts Im talking about. There is a complex cadence , their clap isnt the two and four of put your hands together, there is a logic underneath that has to be intellectualy figured out to execute it.
I let Indian rhythms flow over me, didnt you say something like that, because they are too complex to figure out right away unless you have studied it. Im sure the average audiance doesnt know the inside details as the average classical audience doesnt know what key they are in unless indicated on the program. And I groove to the Afro diasporic concepts, they are complex in a differant way, by the way huge amounts of jazz do not stay in the Afro diasporic concept, but Miles was trying to get back to there as much as he could
The next one is really great and it is in a groove, but, seeing the western instruments, it makes me wonder is that an official Indian musical concept or are they fusing their concepts into a groove ? Do you know if that is official south Indian groove? Yes the phrases are obviously based on their wonderful vocalese
The last one is so incredible and really demonstrates the Indian concepts Im talking about. Just as the musicians that had two drums did, they use 6/8 almost African sounding groove as an accent and then go off into the next virtuastic demonstration…just unbeleivible and the thing I was aluding
the you tube I brought in and I hope you study it, is massive Afro diasporic concepts, some are Miles songs , or songs by someone else that he played, or his contemoraries, there is Brazilian samba at its best by the top players in Rio, there is Afro Braziliand dancing, there is a quick moment of clave, etc all high intensity grooves with no kicks and arrangements that are Euro influenced and the power of solos over people holding down the groove, do you see the differance?
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[…] “Miles Davis” […]
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Brotha Wolf great to see you here, as I said somewhere else, I have really admired some things you have said on here.
African concept, the origins of jazz ride cymbol 3:07, the guy on the right…the splang a lang concept Miles dealt with in the 50s and 60s
Just to talk about Miles concepts a little more, when he would play live during this period of the 50s and 60’s , he would do a lot of the same songs. Even that period that they are pretty out , he did an old standard Green Dolphyn Street. The reason why is of course, he wanted to go on stage with material he was extremly familiar with, so he could be totaly be in the moment, and be able to feel it to the maximim.
Now , this simplicity doesnt mean there isnt tremendous intellect involved, the intellect is practicing with those conepts for hours and hours to commit them to muscle memory and memorisation of chords and scales and grooves, so when you get to the stage, you can turn your brain off and feel it…that is the crux, to turn off the thinking brain and get in touch with intuition….remember those new scientific discoveries ? Remember Darq Beauties link about what happens to Jazz musicians improvixing?
This is very deep
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And actualy, that was the crux of Miles and his contemporaries, not jazz. They wanted that, they innovated it and lots of jazz doesnt go that way. Lots of jazz can use odd times, like Indian concepts, they can have Klezmer jazz, Balkan jazz, really arranged jazz reading lots of charts and lots of kicks reading off of European originated charts. All kinds of mixtures of jazz. Totaly free jazz with no form. Of course Miles passed through many forms of jazz, most was about feeling it kind of jazz. Of course he could read and write.
Here is how they would simplify forms,older jazz forms were mostly but not exlusivly in any way based on a couple of forms, 12 bar blues and 32 bar aaba fromed standards. These standards were really perfected in the jazz age in the 20s with lots of songwriters jumping on tin pan alley writing songs to fit into this new jazz craze thing and all the dances that were coming with it. These Afro Diasporic dances had to have nice even grooves and structures to dance to so they would write these nice aaba tunes with 8 bars in each section.The blues forms were mostly but not exclusivly in 12 bars.
The 32 bar standards would have chord changes that would have to be followed to stay in the paramaters of the chord changes
Miles would write a tune like So What and would use a mode in a pentatonic scale that would be more open to expresion instead of a bunch of chords to follow so he could do a more sweeping idea on the first a section and carry it over to the next a section instead of reign it in on a chord. two a sections in the same mode, which means you can throw a cross rhythm all across there, then the b section, and back to the last a, so, same form as the old standards but much more pentatonc feeling and opened up for more ideas and rhythm experiment and faster tempos…you can feel it more and it is less intellectual…that is what Miles and his contemoraries were trying to do.
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Hi Bulanik, you have been extremly informative here. I absolutly love the youtubes you brought in.
Before we totaly address this thing I am asking about, the differances in these two epicenters of rhythmic concepts, Id like to conclude this thought and theory I am pushing here. So , not comparing for a second, I just want to look at this Afro diaspora evolution and tie it to its roots from Africa.
When I look at the African diaspora, how it went to where slaves were dragged to, an amazing thing happened, their drum dance culture dominated all the countries they were brought to. Their culture and the rhythm concepts of repeated call responce grooves with dances of shuggle steps, and pervic thrusts became the foundation for and enormous number of pop cultures:
To show the power and world recognition of those pop beats and dances, Im sure everyone here has heard of calypso, reggae,blues, steel bands from Trinidad, mambo, hip hop/break dance , cha cha cha, charlston ,lindy hop, rumba, samba, funk, lambada, jazz, tap dance , rock, many more and ones you might not know, maracatu, gua gua co, bloco Afro, etc etc
All these popular dances and grooves are using these principles I am talking about , grooving a person to death and these dances that use shuffle steps and pelvic thrusts , call responce . And, they are somthing that you feel, coming up from the gut, in the sence that it is very centered. Yes, any type of harmonic and melodic influences can be put on top, but the table, the foundation it is set on is that Afro diasporic concept..If you play the national anthem of Brazil as rock, it is some rock, if you play the national anthem of the USA, as a samba, you are playing a samba, the groove defines how you describe what you are playing
People can just go to a popular dance, enact these principles that came from Africa based on the culture of where the slaves came from, and, let go of their thining brain and feel it, they immerse themselves in feeling the music and loosing themselves in the dance steps geered for these particular beats
What happens? They feel really good, well being is in effect, studies show dancing or playing drums have incredible benafits…this part of what the African cultural music genius is all about. To discover how to turn off the thinking brain and get in touch with the intuitive side, the feeling side…the absolute scientificly proved side of us that is really running our lives…
When you immerse yourself as deeply as I have in these principles, what I can tell you is that, it is a force as powerful as any prayer any where in the world.When I play the drums, in that concept, it is like praying. I have horrible back pains, when I play those concepts, I receive incredible help in releiving my pain . It doesnt work like that when I read charts from the Euro centro way or odd times and a liniar aproach, which you have shown in the Indian aproach so very well. That doesnt negate classical music or Indian concepts, their goal is not to turn the thinking brain off, but that is the goal of the African concept, and that is what Miles Davis was shooting for in that period of So What
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how about those shuggle steps and pervic thrusts? that is some really educated spelling form a white guy , right (referance to someones statement as though white people seem to be just better at gramaticle syntax and spelling
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and now, tada, to try to answer blanc2, I look on rock as sort of one of the 101 concepts of the Afro diasporic. The white man surly put his touch on it, but even it , with its heavy handed boom boom crack/boom boom crak is a very rudimental 101 concept of call responce and makes someone, cause it sure aint me, feel good, I did play some rock gigs in my ealy days to make money….
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Bulanik , look at two of the marvelous youtubes you brought in ( Ill get to your dance youtube later, Ill bring in some dance stuff too).
The two drummers and the woman singing. Before you brought them in, I already described what they were doing. Both of them at a certain point go into a definite 6/8 feeling, just like I described that they use it as an accent, or small section and then go on to the next dazzling cerebra display. Look at the singer, incredible, but, she is not doing something you can groove to and pat your foot to.
Do you what her groove concept is ? I dont yet, Id have to work with it a few days to break it down. Same with those two drummers, just as I said, they are clapping and accenting a beat in the cycle, its not call responce by any means, I would need a few days to break down how they are mathamaticly putting their rhythm cycle. Which means its extremly intellectual, cerebral, their goal is not to turn the thinking brain off, they use the thinking brain to put on dazzling combinations
Lood at the 6/8 Afrucan groove I brougt in, you can hear their groove even with extremly layered pollyrhtyms, that are the base all the way through not an accent or section like in those wonderful yotubes of yours. Did you check out my youtube? Every thing in there is based off an Afro diasporic groove , duple / triple meter
they have differant objectives. That middle youtube you brought in where they are grooving , I think they are all percusionists and they are taking their concepts and putting it over a 4/4 concept that is more western. Look at the players on stage with western instruments. But, South Indian rhythms do have grooves but they arnt as deeply pollyrhythmic as the African ones and look at the dance concepts. You cant talk Afro diasporic concepts without incuding the dance, in ss Africa drum and dance are entwined.
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Wow Ive never seen that done before, very good, do you know if she is Zulu? I saw a Zulu kick in there. You are right these moves can be put into other contexts . She also took ballet training as she is moving back and forth . It is totaly coreographed which is a Wesern ballet concept, and, you dont groove your way through classical music.
As a matter of fact, classical music from Europe is linear how you listen to it also. You dont groove through classical music. You have to follow the score,there are pauses, retards, lots of things that take it away from the groove concept.
Now, this clip has various examples of Afro diasporic grooves, from Brazil and the USA, its all improvised, which is differant from choreographed dance steps for most shows, these are the moves of the streets, meant to move how you feel in the moment over a repeated call responce groove in duple or triple meter, each one grooves you to death…do you hear the differance?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWcFKNLuyOY&list=UU-pd9IT71oivlEcSw5o3m9A&index=15&feature=plpp_video
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lets take a pause and check out some Miles, this is the group that I saw Miles with the first time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sayOJKN6yuo
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At this point, the group is introducing free elements, they were getting away from grooves at certain points and going free with the time. This is what I mean about Miles being involved with many facits of jazz not just his “So What ” concepts. He later would come back doing funk type concepts , which is back into Afro diasporic grooves
The free thing is a black American expresion in jazz where they wanted to put the emphasis on maximum expresion, including abandoning Afro diasporic concepts for total freedom….it is a thing that Ornette Coleman and Cecil Taylor introduced, I played some avant guarde jazz, while extremly liberating, it doesnt have the incredible tension release Afro diasporic concept going. It even abandons the “spang a lang” which if you checked out the African bell clip I brought in, you see it there.It just shows, Miles was into lots of styles.
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Bulanik, I really apreciete the questions you are asking. Its really great to discuss these issues with you. It will take a couple of posts to cover it all. Biddy Rich? Give me a minute after my posts to check him out, but he is know for being opinionated to a fault
First of all , asbolutly in no way am I valuing one thing over the other in any form or fasiom . I was hoping I had conveyed a tremendous respect for the Indian youtubes you brought in.
What I meant about pollyrhythmic is, the ss African concept of that,is all the way throug, they groove it in the ground, the Indians, as very well displayed , use pollyrhythms as an accent or section. Then they change and go on to something else, they use it in a differant way , therefor canceling out the purpose of what African concept is , which is to every one hold your parts so the music takes on a life of its own. When Im playing with great musicians, if we are grooving hard, I start to stop thinking, and can feel the music. If I read big band charts, Im not feeling, Im thinking, reading, it loses the original purpose of the Afro diasporic concept, it becomes something else. Not worse , just differant.
The Indian concept is differant. They use the talas as their base and it is a line of beats that they will devise a sequence of that serious of beats and improvise around it. You have to follow that line. If its seven beats and they clap the accent on the 5 beat, their line has to corolate with that. If they start getting into more complicated talas, its like they have to be extra aware of the line. They put together incredible demonstrations of the mathamatical combinations that are virtuostic and dazziling. They do not want to turn off their thinking brains. Its more of a cerebral way to demonstrate rhythms and the African concept wants you to stop thinking and turn on to your intuition and feeling. Neither is better, they are differant ways to look at something, thank heaven for the differances because that just makes for more knowledge and variety in the world.
Look at European classical music. Its based on a composer, he is the one in the creative moment, feeling the music and writing it down. Classical music, because they use writtin scores, is about the composer manipulating the music to make his statement. They dont improvise, Indians do, they have condenza’s and they say they improvised more a long time ago, but I asure you it had nothing to do with jazz. You dont groove classical music, the closest thing to a groove I know is Ravel’s Bolero. If you are playing it, you sure dont turn your thinking brain off. You have to read the score, even if you memorise it, you have to go with it , and, its changing all the time.
They also form harmony, which is an incredible gift to the world.Jazz people use western harmony, They have to think about it. They practice and practice so they can have muscle memory and chord and scale knowledge so they can go on stage and turn their brain off and feel it ( Im referring specificly to the Miles So What modal with swing beat and walking bass. There are tremendous varieties of jazz that use all of these concepts we are talking about from hugely arranged scores to odd time concepts like India. As a matter of fact, in the last 15 years or so, there is a tremendous influence of the Indian odd time concepts on jazz. A lot of jazz is linear also, but Miles was not)
more coming up
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That is why Miles and Cotrane and their collegues, are geniuses and innovative ground breakers. They undersood that if they simplify the strutures, use modes instead of chords, open up the rhythm to cross rhythms ( wisps of implied pollyrhythms) , they could feel the music more and express themselves more deeply and freely.They purposly took a music with a lot of chord changes and stipped it down to head in a more African concept and eventuly let go of the grooves to go free totaly….they wanted freedom…Miles then would go back to the Afro diasporic groove of funk ( ill get some youtubes later)
Now, you say jazz is a couple of centuries old, and , you know, if they experiment with a lot of differant concepts and use things that take it away from its original Afro diasporic concept, it is just 200 year old finding itself. But, if you do what Miles did and plug it deeper into the concepts of the Afro diaspora, you are gaining back all the knowledge of the sub Sahara African concept.
Bulanik, do you really think in your heart of hearts that the |Inida concept is older than the African one ? more after this
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… When I asked about if you all defending rock really listen to the groove, I was meaning in comparison to James Brown.
Now I openly ask anyone here , anyone, do they think rock is in the same leval groove wise as James Brown? James Brown innovated and changed the whole concept of groove. They had to invent drum machines to correct the errors of the rock drummers, they just didnt have steady time.This is a fact , I lived through this.
You know I totaly respect your opinion of the dancers being aggresive and physical and that you dont relate to the groove, but, I love it , its , for me personaly, a much more prefered concept for me, a drummer who loves getting lost in the groove.
You know , that is what its all about, everyone has the right to like what they like. As a player, I have to know what it takes to play these styles, so in the process of playing a huge amount of styles, including Indian concepts, I discovered what I like best. Brazil may only be 400 years, but they have stuff nobody else has anywhere in the world., There is nothing in India like Mangueira, samba dance( please show me if there is), Tom Jobim and his colleagues, and the incredible music they wrote…and that doesnt put down India at all, its just they dont have itm they have something else Brazil doesnt, thank god for the differances, more choices for us to find our passion
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Bulanik, very observant about Miles playing the same ol Miles if you are saying that about that youtube I brought in.
It ties in that Miles was using these same songs that he had been playing before as he devloped their concepts. The first cut was “Milestones” and he played that a long time ago.
He wants to go infront of his audiance as comfortable as he can be so he can feel himself in the music and make it in the moment and different every night.For sure there is an evolution of what his bandmates play as he changes his bands
Yes, a person may not like it, but, someone who knows the material is going to be gassed, By the way, right after that concert he recorded Btches Brew and it was all differant music. But he probably blew some familiar licks…on to Buddy Rich
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hahahahahah, well , its Buddy Rich, he is pretty salty, but wow one of the greatest drum soloists of all time
I use both styles , matched grip and traditional grip
The only reason he gets a pass is because he can back it up
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John Coltrane , Giant Steps, a song with lots of chords that Coltrane and Miles would eventualy want to evolve to less chords and more modes. Still a great tune but players either hate to play it , bogged down by chords or they get obsessed with it:
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Now check this, Coltrane ( who worked with MIles) writes a song in the modal concept that is exactly the same chord progresion as So What the he played with MIles aa in d minor and the b to e flat minor and the last a back to d minor 32 bars aaba same everything as So What except the melody at the top, dig Elvin Jones , a real jazz monster drummer innovating pollyryhthms :
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Bulanik check this out:http://www.lucaspickford.com/india.htm
Notice the description of talas, they have 14 beats or 7 or 11 , any number of combinations that really have nothing to do with groove at all. It is a cerebral comples thinking way to express rhythm and the Afro concept is about holing the groove and turning off the thinking mind and feel it
they use modes too but differant, yes Trane did love Shankar and played music inspired by him, but it was in the groove
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I love what you are saying Bulanik, yes , its not trance, you are right. That was the wrong word.
You are right it is similar to praying , that is what I feel when I am deep in an alpha state playing Afro diasporic concepts
I think its great you have defined your tastes for yourself. I dont want to sound like Im quantifying everything by groove, Im just explaining what the properties are that make it work and what the properties that make the Indian concept work. That is why we have personal tastes . I do love Indian music ( food too!!), I listened to Zakir Hussein a everynight recently and Du Du Rose right next to him tto be thinking about what makes them differant…talk about mind blown by both, for differant reasons. I used to play tablas, more boogaloo tablas than anything , even recorded them on a couple of records , I went into back convulsions playing them in a dance class and had to give it up.My freinds I told you about, really tried to learn the talas and everything….wasnt that a cool link explaining the Indian concepts ?
Ellis, fantastic, if you can, google up Elza Soares, you might like her too. Her story is incredible . I love the differances out here, Bulanik, having choices to pick what you really love is wonderful
Alo, you never know when I might decide to throw myself back into the Indian concepts agian…luckily we are free to do that, there is no immigration and customs in music and dance
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Bulanik, maybe you misunderstood where I was coming from.
For example, did you think I was criticising the African dancer in the ballet? I wasnt, I was pointing out that it wasnt the concept I was talking about and that it represented another fusion.
I think what was important to me was to define the differances in these aproaches. Why ? Because people dont really talk about or understand what is really going on with the Afro diasporic contribution to the world in music…..and really in life…
People give it lip service, but, they dont really understand the power and depth that has transformed the world in a major way and how we go about our lives.Because music is one of the most powerful forces on the planet. But it is way more than music. It really is interesting with what they are saying about the intuition , the subconcious,how that is what is driving us before we even think it in our minds…..isnt that heavy duty….doesnt that totaly make you check out everything you ever thought about the mind and how we are going about our lives ?
And, right infront of our nose, the oldest culture in the world, the first culture to use drum and dance, has the principles of let go, turn off your thinking brain and plug into your intuition in a totaly integrated drum/ dance call responce format…doesnt that blow your mind? It blows mine…
That is why I was coming in and saying “that is not the priciple of the Afro diaporic and its roots concept”, . It inno way is meant to say it is better than anyof the other concepts. They all have something unique to offer and any one can decide what they like or not. You didnt take to the heavy groove aggresive famale dancing, I love it and it is one of the principles of Afro dancing, heavy aggresive moves.
So I hope you understand that that is what I meant and if that doesnt answer you well enough, please let me know, its important for me that you understand where I am coming from. I thought I made it clear that I am a big fan of Indian music, Im just more of a fan of Brazilian music and MIles Davis
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Bulanik, another thing I think I want to address reguarding some things you have stated, sometimes you seem to imply that jazz or Brazilian music has only been here 400 years or so , so , how can it be as deep as North Indian classical music? Well, when Brazilian music or American music like Miles or John Coltrane ( did you see the clips I brought in by him? That is deep stuff…Elvin Jones, Elvin Jones, Elvin Jones) strip down there music so it really does plug into the African roots that the culture comes from, open it up to that groove , and not break it with over arranging extra bars or kicks that stop the groove, then, it is plugging into that force that is the oldest culture on the planet.If it didnt do that, I would totaly agree with you..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOYZSLG9Bp8&feature=related.
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Definitly important to take a look at the way Miles hooked up with Marcus Miller, master slap bassist and producer of Luther Vandross:
Here is On the Corner and he uses Badal Roys tablas on the opening parthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOG_ZSEMUs
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Lets see if I can hook the link up better.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iOG_ZSEMUs
This is a point where Miles is making some transitions in his music.
Miles never staid in the same place. Many artist get out there, get a hit or some recognition and keep playing that same style the rest of their lives…..not Miles Davis
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http://users.unimi.it/~gpiana/dm2/dm2talnr.htm
http://kksongs.org/harmonium/chapter10.html
Bulanik, I missed your post that the link didnt come in and you are right, it didnt , so here are two links that pretty much verify my description of the Indian concepts and it is obvious they have nothing to do with the dupe/ triple call responce concepts of the Afro diaspora.
You say I dont know Indian rhythms, but it seems I know more than you do about it.These links show that the Indian concepts is extremly complicated and is something that involves great cerebal attention to be able to pull it off, not the same concept at all of holding your part, a reapeated , call responce , pollyrhythm based with the attention of giving the music a life of its own ( in classical music you are playing the composers idea of how it goes)turning off the roof brain and getting in touch with your intuition
This is absolutly not to say that the Indian concept is any less, its to say that there are differant objectives and goals in the intereratation
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By the way, I have to clarify that all these incredible musicians , Miles Davis and the people who played with him in the So What period, which is an incredible period, they didnt sit around it a group and say ” we are going to try to elimate the chord progresions and go more pollyrhythmic to play the more Afro diasporic concept”
I am the one who is saying that the choices they made took them into those concepts that were more close to the Afodiasporic concept.
I dont know exactly what these individual musicians were thinking, but, I know there were plenty of black American jazz musicians who were saying that.That is where the trend was going back then
I know I asked Elvin Jones at a huge drum clinic if he was influenced by African music and he chatised me in front of everyone and said “jazz is American music…”, then , when the laughter cleared, he said ” I did listen a lot to the music of the ” Bambuti pygmies”
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Im sorry , Bulanik
I will get to this later, looks fantastic
And I regret saying I know more about Indian rhythms, I meant that I have some knowledge of the fundimentals and I was trying to convey that…..these links certainly go into a lot of detail
Your affinity and passion for their music is huge and bigger than mine and mine is very big
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Bulanik, Ok , I watched this, sorry , it takes time for me to hook up you tubes.
Good timing to bring in Wynton and something of classical music.As I mentioned before, Jim Crow laws forced classicly trained musicians to play with blues musicians. In many aspects, as far as harmony, jazz is 20th century harmony filtered through the blues. Many jazz musicains who played with Miles , like Herbie Hancock, Chick Correa, Keith Jarrett , Bill Evans , Gil Evans, etc , were classicly trained musicians .And Wynton Marsalis went on to perform on concert stages as a classical musician
The other thing Id ike to convey to you and anyone else, the reason Im addressing these concepts that Im talking about is because they are concepts of Miles Davis. I am a practicioner of the concepts of Miles Davis. You will not hear about the concepts I am talking about in a jazz school with white boys transribing Miles Davis solos. Im talking about deep life concepts, and I am bouncing those ideas off of you and the Indian concepts you brought in. Its not whose concepts are better, it is that its worth examining these concepts, and there is no other place better than here on a MIles Davis thread
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i think it would be great to also look at a jazz player who doesnt play classical music and is about deep soul and blues and Miles Davis concpepts
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I hate to have to do your work for you , Bulanik, but, if you want a good look at Indian groove take a look at this :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTaTSGRD4Jk
Isnt that cool ? As I said, South India has some really good grooves and this is a great duple meter groove. And this is a fantastic dance
Im going to bring in a couple of more South Indian dances and then Im going to show how the Afro diasporic concept, the one that came to the Americas, is differant
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check this gracful groovy dance from South India. Very graceful
That groove is infectuous
What could the differance be?
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What is the differance ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4RfHIcTPDg
pelvic thrusts
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aggesive pelvic thrusts and fast intense shuffle steps
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Here is Sonny Sharrok, a guitarist who played with Miles Davis on the “Jack Johnson” record. This is a tour I did with him to Paris. For me , he definitly represents Miles Davis concepts. And one thing they say about Miles, he didnt give much direction to his players. He wanted them to do their thing, to find their way to bring to the table what they have. Sonny was very much like that, he barely would tell us what to play, he was one of the hippest leaders I worked for. But, I have to tell you , Ive worked for a number of high leval black American jazz musicians, including some others who played with Miles, and, they had something in common, these leaders, didnt tell us what to play, Just get the basic form and groove and get to that space of intuition, of feeling it. Sonny, Dr Lonnie Smith, Walter Bishop Jr, Alex Foster, Bunky Green , Ken Prince and many more, were black American high leval jazz musicians who were about turning the thinking brain off and feeling it. Now, make no mistake, these guys could have written some really hard arrangements and charts and told us what to play every step. What makes them great is they didnt. Pleny of white musicians have the hardest arrangements and want to tell you what to play ( not all). I really did feel a differance with these incredile black American musicians I worked with. Ill link up Sonny below
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I miss you Sonny , we will always have Paris…
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By the way, speaking of Afro diasporic dances and Miles Davis, lets look at the black American dancing and the music played to it that Miles Davis would have heard and seen as a young man http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzpVeJodMSo
talk about fast aggresive shuffle steps and pelvic thrusts
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ill try this link again, the lindy hop was an international dance craze
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This is a real treat, another black American dance craze that took over the world and was instrumental to the idiom bebop, that Miles first enterd jazz. Max Roach , a great Ameican jazz drummer who played with Miles, said that the drummers would pick up on the tap dancer dropping their heels , so the drummers took that and changed their bass drum to catch accents instead of just lay 4 on the floorhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZn2747CITY&feature=related
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here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZn2747CITY&feature=related
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Talk about fast shuffle steps, tap dancing had influences like Irish clog dancing, but black Americans, as in so much culture in American that they touched, totaly made it their own, with incredible syncopation and aggresive moves. Irish clog dancing is mostly coming off the one, where even the basic time step in tap comes in on ” and three and four and one” which is much more syncopated
And this really was the climate of music and dance that Miles Davis saw and experianced. This was the swing groove , the”splang a lang” that “Papa Jo Jones ” innovated on the drums and was the groove that Miles worked with the most between 1948 until 1967, and it was the period he is respected for very much. Only the stuff with Gil Evans like Sketches of Spain hinted at other areas that Miles could excell at also
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@B.R.
Good conversation! We, Blacks are known for being able to dance and sing but sadly I am nor one of those Black people
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Adeen , you absolutly dont have to dance or sing or like Miles Davis to pick his brain about life and concepts. He lived a glamorous life. Did you know he was married to actress Cycily Tyson ? Did you know about how he faced racism in the 50’s and 60’s when it was an especialy brutal time? Miles used to tell his wife , Francais Davis , who was a trained dancer working with Jerome Robbins, on West Side Story, for Broadway, to go into the hotels to check in, because he hated to go to the front desk and have the racism of him being black. And , you know what ? Miles, who had many parallels with Malcolm x , he was hated for being a succesful black man in America, he still hired white players sometimes, and then would get comments from some people who happened to be black, that he shouldnt do that…
By the way, Im going to tell you a secret about how to get jazz musicians wrapped around your little finger in the next post
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By the way, Miles was from East ST Louis , no stranger to brutal racist atitudes, it could almost be considered the south..
Adeen, you do know , if you dont like to dance, you might listen to the first youtube Abagond brought in So What, and just give it a try and let me know because guess what, if you dont like to dance, you may be perfect to listen to Miles Davis jazz…
Now, here is the thing, you dont have to like jazz at all, but, just go to the music department in your school, if you dont have one,find one with a jazz department. Look for big bands, go see if you can just listen to them, look over the trombone section, usualy they look like guys that could have played football but are too sensative for violence, good trait, look for the worst player that looks good, check it out a while and if you ever have a conversation , just say ” I really like your playing…” ,then get ready for him to see you for the first time…He probably wont be good enough to tour, is smart enough to get a good job and …just some ideas where you might meet some other kind of interesting guys….jazz guys are cool….Miles Davis is the epitome of cool !!
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@B.R.
Lol, good info. Wow, the 50s and 60s were horrible times for Blacks! Good suggestion
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It absolutly was, Adeen, and, Miles Davis has the wisdom about it , not unlike Malcolm X. There are uncanny similarities to ealiar parts of their lives…drug addiction, jail, police confrontaions, experiancing racism
By the way, Im going to give you a tip here. We have a link to something in the early part of the thread, and it is about the police beating ( you should see this , it is touching), and,the place we got it from , makes it look like they are making a film about Miles Davis. I dont know for sure. I always heard a rumor that Don Cheadle was suposed to be doing one . But, if they happen to make it in the next year or so, just use this thread as your tip sheet and you can impress anyone around you who will see the movie……right ?
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This is strictly for people who adore Miles Davis. There are so many tech glitches and video problems that only the Miles fans will endure it for the treasure that is there. Miles, Wayne, Ron, Herbie, Tony in rare American TV footage from the Steve Allen . Some strange show comes in at the end but the Miles footage is incredible. You never know if one day someone comes in here who loves Miles Davis and will see this thread and discover some of this incredible footage. Or someone might re check it out and actualy find out they love Miles
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One thing about Miles Davis that can never be looked was his struggle as a black man in racist white Ameica. Look at that picture Abagond has up now ( it may change one day so this is for today), its the picture of determined black Americans facing down the racist police in the south. Look at the look on those black men’s faces and compare that to the look of Miles in the picuture I brought in after he was beat by the police, its the same face.Miles knew racism
And, you can see it in perspective to racism against black people all over the world.You can certainly take all the Americans where they brought black slaves. These black slaves would change the foundation of those cultures where they were brought. They literaly invented the popular cultures in all those places with the whites just clamoring like heck to catch up and jump on in the back, even the darn banjo, the shining example of good ole boy down home white values country picken, is an African insturment, Ive seen it down here in certain type of samba bands.
Brazil is a prime example of racism in the Americas, its got the largest black population of any country in the world except Nigeria. It ended slavery in 1888, and they stil brought slaves clandestinly up to 10 years after…and black
Brazilians have dominated the popular beats and dances of that country, using Afro diasporic concepts, just like Miles Davis was incorporatein Afro diasporic concepts in his music
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I have made a post that is in moderation, and i see i misspelled a word in a sentance , so , you will see this post come in, and I mean to say :”One thing about Miles Davis that can never be OVERLOOKED ( i miss typed “looked”)…”
Ace, I hope to open a diolouge about your and my experiances with racism in Brazil and the Caribean, with this post so when it comes in feel free to respond if you want to
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Just to parphrase the comment in moderation, the racism Miles was a victom of, white racism against black people, is the same racism against racism around the world. As I said in the moderating post, look at the faces of those men in the picture above and compare it to the picture of Miles when he was beat by the police.Its the same face of determination. You see the baton in the police hands, you see the result in the Miles pictures.
This same racism , but manifesting in differant ways, can be found all over the Americas where they brought slaves from Africa. funny, how musicly, black people brought over as slaves , changed and dominated the foundation of most of the countries they were brought to. This is very true of Brazil, where the outside impresion is of lots of mixture and harmony. But inside, there is lots of racial discrimination . But, it is differant than the USA. Yet, the musics of jazz and samba , were persacuted by the societies at that time and in fact, in the USA , it was called “race music”
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@ B.R.,
I wanted to wait to see your full post once it got out of moderation before I replied, but for now I can at least respond to what you have up there.
South American racism (along with Central America and the Caribbean) has always been different from North American racism, even though there are many similarities. There’s this “mask” of racial cooperation and harmony because of the many mixed race people in those areas, but the reality is a bit more troubling. There was this attempt to “breed out” the black and indigenous population once it was discovered it was not economically feasible to deport them and they were too numerous to overtly control. There’s seriously a literal apartheid on visible black people.
I know growing up, my father was stationed in South America constantly, and we often visited there, and the Caribbean. Race was complicated there, because there was no real “one drop rule” which said anyone with black blood was black, no buts or exceptions. For example: A lot of people in Brazil don’t think they’re racially prejudiced, nor do they recognize racism as a modern problem, they just see it as an offset of slavery. Everyone has their “place” and black people are at the bottom, and that’s that.
The weird part was that there are so many racial categories in Brazil that we had no clue where we fell. My father told me that he was informed that race in Brazil is based on cosmetics and economics, and less on ancestry. A person with very “black” features, dark “kinky” hair and dark skin was likely going to be identified as black and treated as such. I feel this is the direct result of combining the Nazi-esque racial philosophies of purity and the superiority of the white race with the complicated racial situation that exists down there. People with money, power, light skin, or “good hair” are more likely to be able to identify as something else, something closer to “white”, even if they’re “black” by U.S. standards.
Black is synonymous with poor in Brazil, along with Panama, Colombia and many parts of the Caribbean. Blacks are considered a “slave caste”, and “underclass”. The powerful are invested in keeping them that way, in a loop of poverty and servitude. So if you are black, odds are you will be poor, and if you are poor, odds are you should be black, according to those societies. They are often hidden away in neighborhoods like “favelas” or “bairros africanos”, which are shanty-towns kept far away from the rich and tourists who want to see a pretty, color blind Brazil.
There’s this place that black Brazilians belong, that is both celebrated and abused. The music, dance, and other arts (like Capoiera) are a staple of what people think when they think “Brazil”, much like similar black creations are celebrated in many parts of South America and the Caribbean. But black people themselves are treated as inferiors. In fact, I remember my father telling me that men under his command had wanted to fight him because he said that black men and women could be in high positions of power. To those men, those prominent black people weren’t “black”, and to say so was somehow insulting! They nearly lost it when my father told them he wasn’t white like they assumed he was (with the money, high military ranking, and education, plus pale skin and blond hair with light eyes? They’d thought he was white from the start).
The Caribbean is also very complicated! Many black people there see themselves as better than African Americans. Somehow they’re more “hard working”, more “industrious”, even “better looking”. The high populations of Chinese and Indian immigrants (and descendants of servants) make the racial situation even more complicated. We were treated well when our father was with us, when he wasn’t? We weren’t so well off.
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Ace, fantastic testimony. It will take me a couple of posts discussing your great insights. First, I just want to say that Miles Davis played with people from the Caribean and Brazil. You mentioned Panama, Miles played with Billy Cobham on the Jack Johnson record and Calos Garnett on the On the Corner record and he also recorded and toured with Airto Moreira and recorded with Hermetto Pasqual from Brazil, so, talking about these countries and their racist situations, and based on Miles own racist situations he faced, really some dog low worse racism at getting beaten, is in line with this thread.
I definitly hear you about Brazil, it is a very complicated country with a very real link to its slave past, and, how the culture of the slaves is weaved deeply into their psych, yet, an insidious racism that is bone crunching in its ability to deprive a huge group of people a space.
I tell you, I travel not a huge amount, but, because of my work, just enough to get a good look at the airports and hotels and various other things in other cities. The airports as far as the gates and people waiting for planes, is mostly but not excluslivly, pheno type white. There are not even that many pardo or brown people. Its amazing with the racial mix of that country. I know the differance of who is classified as white. There are olive skinned Italian descendants who are out in the sun a lot so they get darker, but , you know the break down and ,airports and congress, and TV and the universities, are almost like Swiss television. There has been improvement, to Brazil’s credit, but, the TV is about at a few years after Julia when Bill Crosby was in I Spy and other black entertainers sort of were visible.
There are many other things I will address here as we go, and your testimony on the Caribean and other places near there is welcome, since I never passed those places so I cant speak with authority.
The music cultures from thos places all have in common also with the USA , AFro diasporic influences that dominated the popular musics and dances…just incredible, Ill post more as we go here about that
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If you think about it, the USA, and the Caribean countries , and South American countries , who brought slaves from Africa, seem to all have a similar dynamic where the Afro diasporic concepts dominated the popular music and and the elite whites are on top economicly and black populations on the bottom.
Ace makes this observation “Black is synonymous with poor in Brazil, along with Panama, Colombia and many parts of the Caribbean. Blacks are considered a “slave caste”, and “underclass”. The powerful are invested in keeping them that way, in a loop of poverty and servitude. So if you are black, odds are you will be poor, and if you are poor, odds are you should be black, according to those societies. They are often hidden away in neighborhoods like “favelas” or “bairros africanos”, which are shanty-towns kept far away from the rich and tourists who want to see a pretty, color blind Brazil. ”
I agree with this observation. This is a repeated dynamic in the Americas.
Ace, there are some histories in Brazil that say they encouraged white people to mix to lighten up the population. Which is the opisite of the racist whites in the USA who dont want any mixing.Yet, the racist undertones are equaly disturbing
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“Could India’s singers doing just this a couple of thousands years before?”
Some one brought in some fantastic Indian singer doing vocalese which is a part of their cultrue and asked if they could be doing this before Ella Fitzgerald.
But, it should be noted, that there is no comparison. Ella is taking European harmony and putting it through the filter of the blues. Black Americans invented the blues. It is one of their gifts to the world. There is nothing in Indian music like the blues. Indian singers dont negociete their way through harmonic changes with an AFro diasporic swing beat underneath. Indian music doent have harmony. European classical music doesnt have the blues and neither does Indian music. So , no, Indains and Europeans were doing nothing like the blues and swing. People have to deal with these concepts on their own terms. And these were the terms Miles Davis was dealing with
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The 12 bar blues is just a marvelous song stucture.
It isnt complex like some extremly arranged European Classical music or the talas of Indian concepts, but, in the simplicity lies the genius, the genius that can be quantum physics in the hands of someone like MIles Davis, the genius to look for simplicity to be able to think less and feel more while you are improvising…turn off the thinking brain to get in touch with intuition. The blues is great music to feel
12 bars can be devided by 4 into 3 sections of 4 bars , a call responce in the first 8 and a turn around in the last 4 bars.
That is right on the money of being a duple / triple meter call responce, syncopated song structure filtering the European harmony through that very Afro diasporic concept , invented by black Americans
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B.R.
Sorry it took me so long, I’ve been feeling pretty ill since yesterday.
” You mentioned Panama, Miles played with Billy Cobham on the Jack Johnson record and Calos Garnett on the On the Corner record and he also recorded and toured with Airto Moreira and recorded with Hermetto Pasqual from Brazil, so, talking about these countries and their racist situations, and based on Miles own racist situations he faced, really some dog low worse racism at getting beaten, is in line with this thread.”
Yes, it’s a pretty complex thing. Usually when people think “racism” they think that it’s a U.S. and maybe European phenomena without any outreaching consequences. Many don’t realize just how much other countries would base their own race relations on the mindsets that created many of the ideas behind racism. Some don’t even know that nazism even had a popular front in Argentina, for example, and that many of their views on genetics were quite popular in other parts of South America that had been colonized by European nations. The psychological affects on people is astounding, and many can’t deny the correlation between racism, poverty, and violence when they examine these places.
Miles Davis’ experience in these parts probably could give a lot of insight into how a famous black person (or just a successful one) might experience a country with such a complex racial situation like Brazil.
“I definitly hear you about Brazil, it is a very complicated country with a very real link to its slave past, and, how the culture of the slaves is weaved deeply into their psych, yet, an insidious racism that is bone crunching in its ability to deprive a huge group of people a space.”
The weird thing about Brazil in this is that they were so entrenched in keeping blacks as a slave caste and yet were so willing to adopt facets of the very group they were going to oppress.
“I tell you, I travel not a huge amount, but, because of my work, just enough to get a good look at the airports and hotels and various other things in other cities. The airports as far as the gates and people waiting for planes, is mostly but not excluslivly, pheno type white. There are not even that many pardo or brown people. Its amazing with the racial mix of that country. I know the differance of who is classified as white. There are olive skinned Italian descendants who are out in the sun a lot so they get darker, but , you know the break down and ,airports and congress, and TV and the universities, are almost like Swiss television. There has been improvement, to Brazil’s credit, but, the TV is about at a few years after Julia when Bill Crosby was in I Spy and other black entertainers sort of were visible.”
I’ve heard about the classifications, and there were a lot. Even for brunettes with olive skin vs. blonds. From what I’ve heard, the majority of Brazilians who do enjoy amenities like air travel would likely have been white for a long time, but I also feel that ties into how race effects economics, even in countries outside of the US. In Panama, I remember that there wasn’t a lot of exposure for black entertainment or television shows, but the merengue scene was full of black people.
“If you think about it, the USA, and the Caribean countries , and South American countries , who brought slaves from Africa, seem to all have a similar dynamic where the Afro diasporic concepts dominated the popular music and and the elite whites are on top economicly and black populations on the bottom.”
Your exactly right about that. Almost every country I’ve been to with a heavy black population had a black underclass. African concepts would indeed be a staple of those cultures either via music, food, dance, sports, etc. You’d rarely see black people enjoying them, however. It relates to the American Jazz scene when black musicians could play for white crowds, but black audiences were never allowed to sit in the theater.
“Ace, there are some histories in Brazil that say they encouraged white people to mix to lighten up the population. Which is the opisite of the racist whites in the USA who dont want any mixing.Yet, the racist undertones are equaly disturbing”
I agree, because either way it’s trying to find a way to control or remove the black population. My father told me the same thing many times, he was convinced that this was a central concept behind the heavy amount of mixed race people in Brazil. I believe both ideas were created as a response to a suddenly freed population of black people who, in their minds, would rebel if they weren’t controlled or removed in some fashion. One uses eugenics and the other uses segregation. Yet neither wants to be removed from the things that blacks created or were the first to incorporate. They want the culture, but not the people. It’s cultural appropriation taken to a whole disturbing level. Actually, come to think of it, cosmetics are used the same way. Many of the things that Brazilian models have been praised for have been seen on black women from the start, but since the women are black, they aren’t considered a part of the “beauty” of Brazil.
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Ace, sorry to hear you were sick. Dont worry about posting, when you have something to say , about your travels and insights, especialy the Caribean and Brazil, it will be welcome here. Jazz is one of the most open musics anywhere. It seems it makes a space for people from all over the world and Miles hired people from all over the world. Some of the great black jazz musicians were very open and about freedom of expresion.
Im impressed with your travels and insights. I havent had much experiance in the Caribean and Id like to know more. Jamaica, Cuba ,Puerto Rico, Panama, Haiti, and the others , are all places I wish I could pass through.
The media in Brazil is scary. Scary because Brazil has such a large Afro diasporic population, but, I swear, the TV when it came in Brazil, set black Brazilians back a long way. It really gave the chance for the elites to tell their stories and push their concepts of what is important and what gets shown and doesnt. And people dont try to really change it. They dont try to change it anywhere in the world it seems, we all just accept the spoon fed pablum that they push on us. And its just a small group of people who own the companies. These things stick out in a counry like Brazil. They used to have this kids show with Xuxa ( she came to the states also). In this hugly black country , she had 7 or so blond assistants. What a horrible roll model for young black kids in Brazil. They get to feel left out and made to feel that they have something wrong , very fast. Its really sad. The black women in Brazil are some of the most beautiful and sensual as anywhere in the world, yet they are constantly reminded that they are not as beautiful as the white standards
They invaded the favelas recently in Rio, and it was on TV as they did it. It was bizzarre. As they went up the favela, at the bottom was more light and as they went up the buildings got more delapidated and the people got darker…
As with Miles Davis and jazz, the really heavy culture is undergound and hidden most of the time until Carnival. Then it comes out for a minute. The same with instrumental music and its not just racial, many great white players never get a chance to really show what they can do. But black culture suffers the most, in a country half black. See what I mean that the TV set the whole thing back more than anything in the last 30 years.How they can actualy hide the wonderful things that are just dripping from the streets, is amazing, but, that is the media for you everywhere…what a pity, it could be so good
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Speaking of Panama, check out Panamanian by way of Queens, drummer Billy Cobham with Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter , all three played with Miles. This is some real smoke…
Only the top cats played with Miles, and they would go on to have great careers because they played with him
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Ace, I dont know if you will see this, but, I would love to hear your personal insights to any of the music and dances you might have seen in your travels to the Caribean or Brazil. A lot of them have things like distinct carvinal celibrations, and of course unique local dances and styles of music
This is the Afro diaspora, the same one Miles was a part of , there are similar underlying concepts banging together like the Indians , the colonisers and the slaves from Africa.
You find the religious rites from the slaves cultures preserved in differant countries but with similarities, Voodoo in Haiti, Candomble in Brazil, Santera in Cuba, all hid their deities behind Catholic Saints…I mean that is amazing right there that a long ways away, people used the same tricks to fool the white man…and the rhtyms and dance moves were used in these rights. Any place the slaves were brought, they just dominated the popular rhythms and dances
And I saw a documentary about a small French colonised island in the Caribean, I forgot which one, and the black music artists were talking about their roots, and they said in the slave times, the happy melodies they developed were mimicking the classical music of the colonisers and the dark notes were the petatonic of the African roots. Interesting way to put it…
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And, in Brazil, for example, you can see many many folkloric dances and grooves that date back several hundreds of years, like Maracatu, or Coco. You can see a vivid example of the drum dance concepts of the slaves .
But in the USA, where the slaves drums and dances were banned, its really hidden. After seeing what is happening in Brazil, I feel robbed of my history as an American. I know there were things going on that were hidden. That is why there is no record of it, people were tying to hide it. How did all those incredible rhythms start pouring out from “Baby Dods” on the drums ? He got it from something passed down from the past.
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maracatu
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coco
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I co produced one of that groups CD’s…deep stuff
Now, if someone ever kind of follows this Miles Davis thread and wants to really blow their mind, just compare the dancers in the Coco youtube above with the tap dance video I brought in. The similarities are unbeleivible, the body attack into the feet , from the center, awesome similarities, that stuff blows my mind…I trip on stuff like that..and guess what, tap territory is Miles Davis territory. The tap dancers were influencing the drummers Miles played with in Be Bop. Look at the similartities in the tap and Coco dancing, there is a thread of similar concepts of how to feel and make music and dance.
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I had to put the tap up next to the Coco dancing so anyone who really wants to see this absolutly amazing phenomenon side by side wont have any trouble….this stuff blows my mind. I work with dancers and have studied what makes what for years and stuff like this is treasure
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…yes, that is a very little Sammy Davis Jr in the first parts…
just check out how similar the ginga ( Brazilian word) is in these two aproaches
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http://milesdavis.wordpress.com/
Look at Don Cheadle dressed up as Miles, maybe they will make this movie, wouldnt that be something?
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1979 does not seem the most opportune setting for a movie about Miles. An interview I read says the movie will be set in 1979. Miles’ great eras are behind him by 1979.
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SW6, I sure understand if a person likes the early Miles. I think I like that time also. But, I was never disapointed at a Miles show in the later years. And, the Marcus Miller years were productive I think.For sure the funk got more authentic with Marcus
I think I read that this movie was going to have flashbacks, because earliar in this thread, we linked it to a part where he got beat up by the police and they were filming that episode, so there may be flashbacks, or , there may be another movie, Ill find that link and bring it in about the other movie
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By the way, SW6, what early Miles do you like ? ( if you get a chance to see this question and want to answer it)
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Ahhh, when he got bashed by the police, I think he was married to Frances Taylor at the time. I wonder if she’ll be portrayed in the movie as too. She was cute!
I’m not into Jazz as much as I used to be. I used to really cherish Jazz music. I still feel it is a very special music but as time changes you change too, you know? Anyway having said that it’s easiest to mention some of what I’ve got:
• I have quite a bit of Charlie Parker. When I was buying Bird material, I made it a point to also get sides with Miles as a sideman. I wanted to know how Bird shaped Miles and how Miles came up during the Be-Bop era. Bird’s Dial sessions can be split in at least two ways: the west coast recordings and the east coast (NYC) recordings. I believe Miles plays on every single one of the west coast Dial recordings. On the ballads he is just amazing. These sides would be 1947.
Miles is on some Savoy dates with Bird too and I have some of those things as well.
• Of course I have Kind of Blue. And other recordings with that sextet like Jazz at the Plaza.
• Then I have In Silent Way. It feels very 70’s that album. I don’t mean that pejoratively either but I just always felt that it was very 70’s and very good; I still like it. I had a live album of Miles at the Blackhawk but I lost it over the years.
I would have made my way to Bitches Brew and Live-Evil but I started to get out of Jazz and even started to neglect listening to music in general (whole other story).
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Wow, SW6, you have great taste
I love Charlie Parker , too, and, you know his records better than I do.
The influence I hear form Bird on Miles is, Miles, even after starting the Cool School, Miles still loved to play live doing super fast and driving up tempo numbers , which was a trademark of bebop
Miles would use some really monster drummers
And it makes me intrigued by your story, how you were into jazz and them moved on…darn it, I never could,Im addicted for life , and that isnt always for the best results as far as getting hired for music jobs, since jazz is in the underbelly of the music business.
Yes, Frances is very attractive. She was a dancer, doing West Side Story on Broadway with Jerome Robbins at the time she was married to Miles, and, Miles made her quit….He taught her boxing too, and she said it helped her duck his punches…
Talking with someone who has knowledge of Bird and Miles is so cool…
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ohh mistake alert! I meant to say Miles plays on every single one of the EAST coast recordings of Bird’s Dial sessions.
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http://www.slashfilm.com/don-cheadles-miles-davis-movie-cubist-gangster-pic-means/
wow, here is the link that sais there are going to be two films about Miles Davis…I cant beleve that !!
Cheadle said that it would be great to have two films about a legend like Davis…I couldnt agree with him more
I wonder if either film will address the early Miles years ?
When they both come out, we can all meet back here and talk about them….
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I forgot about L’ascenseur pour L’echafaud. It was one of my most beloved Miles Davis albums.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17pd3bVQCQ)
Note to B.R. and Abagond:
the many embedded videos are jamming up the thread, we should stick to parenthesis like on the open thread.
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Really beautiful youtube , SW6! That is Miles at his most haunting balled sound, something he was noted for . This was a soundtrack he was hired to make in France, if Im not mistaken. He loved being in France and the more liberated atmosphere and less blatent racism.And the French loved Miles Davis
Good idea about the parnethesis. I havent tried it before so if I bring one in , Ill try it then
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” ballad sound” “parenthesis”
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Yeah, it was a soundtrack to the movie of the same name starring Jeanne Moreau. Miles and the other session personnel composed the tracks while watching images of the movie.
Sur l’autoroute , Le petit bal, and Nuit sur le Champs Elysees are major standouts on the album. Many of the tracks are simply reworkings of other tracks with variations in tempo and mood.
This is the only soundtrack I own to which I have not also seen it’s accompanying movie. It’s an outlier in that sense.
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SW6 , Im curious, if you feel like answering, what is your connection to jazz and how did that bring you to Miles Davis ?
If Im not mistaken, the Miles record , Jack Johnson, is from a soundtrack also.
Miles also participated in an Australian movie “Dango ” ( I think that is the spelling”
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hmm…my connection to Jazz…
as a kid I listened to a mixture of commercial music and FM non commercial music. One day the AM switch on my radio broke and I was forced to listen to non commercial music any time I listened to my radio. I listened to lots of things where you could hear little influences of jazz.
One day I decided go right to Jazz music itself. It was time to hear the source. Certain names are in our culture; people know the name Elvis whether they listen to him or not. I knew about Billie Holiday; I had seen the godawful Lady Sings the Blues as a small boy. It was mildly annoying for God Save the Child to be the only Billie Holiday song I knew and I thought I should rectify that.
I went to the record store and bought a Columbia records album with the first sides Billie ever recorded. B.R. have you heard those sides!!! The youthful exhuberance, the fun, the whimsy. I was blown away by how Billie and Teddy Wilson and the other musicians were a seamless musical unit with no one taking the ego spotlight of headliner. The way the music is put together, it’s not a singer and a bunch of musicians complimenting her or making her into an angel—it’s just a musical unit of great musicians presenting art.
I would listen again and again to various tracks and be amazed at the trumpet players, the clarinet players, etc. After awhile I wanted to hear some more trumpet players. I discovered Henry “Red” Allen, he was something. Louis Armstrong was in there somewhere too.
I got to Miles because his was a name that is in the culture just like Billie. I knew Kind of Blue was supposed to be some big deal. I went to the record store and took a look at it. I remember not liking the album cover but deciding to get it anyway. I took it home and played So What? and just melted more with each track. I could not believe how perfect everyone was. The rhythm section, Trane and Cannonball all perfect. And this John Coltrane guy blew me away. Kind of Blue was the first time I heard Trane. The album was masterful.
I heard masterful Miles and then thought, “how did he get this way?” I found out mentors of his had been Gillespie and Parker and then my exploration of Be bop began.
I guess the connection in the simplest of terms is love. Also psychologically speaking because I had been listening to FM music my mind had been conditioned to prefer long form songs. Because Jazz is improvisational songs can continue a good while, until the improvisor feels like stopping. I very much enjoyed that Jazz was a music that could go on any flight of fancy it wished. I eventually ought to have made my way to Sun-Ra and John Gilmore but like I say, I got side tracked out of Jazz and music.
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Great story SW6
I dont know if I heard those exact cuts from Billie Holliday, but , I went through a huge Billie Holliday crush and read her book and listened to a lot of her stuff. Lester Young complimented her so much.
Kind of Blue, fantastic record, Coltrane is so deep.
That is a great process to discover jazz, by getting one artist and then finding other artists they worked with .
My story of finding Miles is on this thread somewhere, but, at 6 or 7, I was really into bongos, so, my dad got me an Art Blakey record with all drums on one side and heavy jazz on the other.I loved the jazz, and heard Miles on the radio and loved him. But , it was later on that a musician turned me on to Four and More, and Tony Williams blew me away with his concepts , and, Miles has been in my life in a big way ever since.
Thanks for the story, SW6
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Thanks , Bulanik…..I missed you….from the whole blog, hope you will
be back full force….your contribution is considerable to the discusions
on the blog
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I notice there is some debate over in the “My family never owned slaves ” thread about the origins of jazz
I say jazz origins are black American and Id be happy to dabate that over here if any one wants to since this is a more apropriate thread
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B.R., check this dude out. He is a freakin’ monster! This solo is from the Jazz at the Plaza recording. The track (as you would know) is Oleo. Cannonball was in top form here. The truth is, to be in Mile’s band at this time was magic and every member was in top form.
For those of you who don’t know, Oleo (a Sonny Rollins original) is a song based on the I Got Rhythm chord sequence. Cherokee and I Got Rhythm are arguably the two most inventive chord structures for improvisation in Jazz.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gN3MTA7axk)
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SW6 , wow, that guitar player is playing with the Cannonbal solo , note for note…
Yeah, Cannonbal is incredible and the Miles Davis record , Milestones,which Cannonbal plays on , is one of my favoirte Miles records , along with Four and More, Miles Smiles , Kind of Blue and some others
Great you have knowledge about Oleo
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I can actually appreciate Miles Davis’s artistry, I am not a die hard jazz aficionado, but i like some of the so called real jazz. I can honestly say after my cousin played “Bitches Brew” and “Kinda Blue” I really liked it and put it on my list of jazz favorites along with Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughn, and Ella Fitzgerald. I was informed by one of my gentleman friends and my late play daddy, that the smooth jazz that i love so much was not real jazz. They said it was a bastardization of true jazz. I have seen people get into arguments about this. I believe people should be allowed to like what they like. I evenstated listening to Ramsey Lewis’s “The In Crowd” I love that. I have always wondered why Miles Davis turns his back to the audience? What was that about. I read he was once married to actress Cicely Tyson and was abusive to her. He seems like a dark soul.
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“Kind of Blue”
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Há, Mary Burrell , in 67, in high school , senior year, I saw Ramsey play In Crowd with bassist Cleavland Eaton , who I would later play with , and , Maurice White , who later would form Earth Wind and Fire….
Gosh, my crowd had a lot of hip music on the box, Ahmed Jamals Nature Boy, Tito Puentes , Wes Montgomery, as well as the great rhythm and blues hits of the day…..
You know , Mary , its hard to put into words , the profound hights that the music of Miles Davis takes me, that probably wouldnt be your favorite type of music , or most peoples . While it isnt the avant guarde jazz, that I did play when I was younger, along with other styles of jazz and all,kinds of music, it is agitated, aggresive , deep swinging , loud, and relentless…
But, if a person dedicates themselves to playing that style, and can find other musicians who play that style, the emotional release , and deep soul cleansing feeling , is undescribable and a unique feeling..of course other power Afro diasporic cultures have their unique properties, as all musics have deep meanings in their expresions…yet, differant objectives with differant emotional results…for sure, as a drummer, the drum kit being invented for jazz, with the maximum range of expresion and orchestration compared to other idioms that use drum kit, Miles great jazz combo groups, do hold special places for me, along with some other personal favorite music styles and artists, like in Brazil…
And this is the deep thing for me about those groups of Miles , who played the aggresive up tempos in those períods with Red Garland, John Coltrane , Paul Chambers , Philly Joe, Tony Williams , Ron Carter , Herbie Hancick, George Coleman , Wayne Shorter….that stuff hits home today like a lightning bolt that only seems to build momentem as each decade passes, revealing new secrets fifty years later…never ending , always growing, always giving…
I mean there is so much music I have lived through, played and learned, so many songs , styles ….and, along with some Afro Cuban and Brazilian music, I keep going back to these Miles and Trane period, as some of the most fertile eternal learning sources of inspiration…they give so much, just to practice with their cuts…first and formost, it aligns my swing to the Afro diasporic principles these outstanding musicians laid down for us to follow, in the most simple of forms and grids to follow, so you can pack it with polly rhytms , and modes to go for maximum freedom on the improvisation, while still in 4/4 swing time…Miles played the same repetoir for many years…on purpose, so they could feel the music…as well , practicing with these cuts , is just tremendous ear training, trying to follow the form and lines, that fast…it just pushes the ear to the max …on top of that, it enters the brain in a deep alpha state , and , its no less than spiritual..it fills the inner being…this is the treasure from the Afro diasporic messages passed down,and , the aggresive jazz taps into it more forcefully….
Besides the unbeivable force this music comes into today , from back then, in a music business pop world , where it could be played by white players, but suposedly , black music, the Miles and Trane period Im reffering to , and they both played with white musician , but those groups , are mainlining pure black American innovations streaming forth
I cant say enough about those groups, but, it probably is not most peoples taste…I just wanted to give you my point of view, as an asumed some what biased individual about it….ha ha…snob, elite? Im not getting elite rich playing this music
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@ B.R.: Thanks for the response. I know you are passionate about your music.
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odyvQ3d3r08)
just to follow up on what I said, here are two Brazilian guys doing a song , seven steps to heaven, by victor feldman, that Miles made famous, with me on drums, in the studio and in concert…the fact these guys are even attempting this leval jazz is impressive…you should hear their samba…but, my hat is off to people from another country, who have gone the extra mile to try to play high leval jazz that Miles showed us the way
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(Not to embarrass you, Abagond, but was I thinking of “you” last night.)
I wish I had the Jazz language to explain how much I love Jazz and cannot live without it.
I also had front row seats to experience some fine,fine contemporary American jazz.
Last night I was thinking of Miles Davis and my late cousin, who was a famous jazz trumpeter, when I was transported into the stratospheric sphere of ineffable ecstasy listening to a young trumpeter from New York City, Jason Palmer. An American chess master and poet, from Harlem, who I met a while back, ‘converted’ my love for the saxophone to the trumpet. I can’t remember exactly, but it was “the instrument of angels with chariots” or something to that effect. So that added an extra dimension.
Mark Turner, a tenor saxophonist virtuoso,described by the New York Times as the “Best Jazz Player You’ve Never Heard (Of)” provided the South African audience with unforgettable improvisational and innovative compositions. The drummer, Marcus Gilmore almost brought us to our feet, and not forgetting, Joe Martin, flawless on the bass.
Mark Turner, also from New York City, was influenced by giants such as John Coltrane and Sonny Rollins. He is masterful composer. The Mark Turner Quartet received a standing ovation. Lady luck was on my side, and I was privileged to shake hands and thank the very pleasant Mr .Palmer and Mr. Turner for sharing their exceptional musical gifts with us.
Jazz musicians are like gods to me.
What a beautiful and unforgettable night.
Listening to Miles Davis ” Love Songs” now. I love him.
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