Guest post by commenter phoebeprunelle:
I am writing this post because an exchange over on the interracial relationship thread sparked a discussion on beauty. Anyone who knows me personally knows that a few years ago, I stopped buying Essence and Ebony magazine – basically any Black mainstream magazine. I also encouraged male family members to look beyond mainstream Black male magazines that featured Black women plastered half naked on the cover with what can usually be described as a scowl on their faces.
Here are the reasons I stopped buying mainstream Black magazines, listed below in no particular order:
1. Perpetuating Black Female Inferiority: Both Ebony and Essence magazines have featured the most negative stories about Black women and Black people in the past five years. You would think we can’t or are incapable of doing anything right. It also doesn’t help that they rarely ever feature Black academics, writers, etc.
2. Reducing the Black Female to One Narrative: None of the mainstream Black magazines encourages Black women to be feminine or to embrace the different expressions of Blackness. They omit Black women who are into cosplay, soft rock, Afrocentrism, science fiction geeks, retro/vintage lifestyle etc. By the way, I am the last one as most of my dresses and handbags were made pre-1950’s.
Black mainstream magazines would not dare go near this Sista for an interview:
3. Keeping Black Females Silent: We all know that Black women receive a lot of flack because we are usually too something or not enough of something (*insert your complaint here*), but what is very interesting is that we are constantly berated for our supposed lack of femininity. The images above should highlight that there is nothing wrong or lacking in our femininity. Yet that discussion on the interracial relationship thread led to familiar territory with one of the commentators: anytime a Black woman questions the very things in our community that does not do our femininity any justice, it is met with accusatory statements such as, “You must be jealous,” or “You’re bitter.”
4. Mixed Messages from the BC: This leads to my last point about Black mainstream magazines. Here are two images of very beautiful and successful models in their own right:
This is Angelique Noir:
Both women are modern pin-ups who emphasize traditional feminine charm in all their photo shoots. They look approachable.
Now compare these images taken from mainstream Black male magazines:
It should come as no surprise why Black women are denied our right to be seen as vulnerable, virgins, girls-next-door, (feminine traits) when those of us in our community would rather reward the last two images.
As soon as I saw this guest post by you I had to first come and congratulate. Once i read it I will comment further. You Go Girl!!
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I just want to say, the picture in your avatar is beautiful
In Brazil, the girl in a string bikini can be the girl next door, too
down here, its aceptable and normal
i certainly have deep respect for Afro diasporic women expressing their culture,the real life woman who is depicted playing the guitar would be Esperanza spaulding, and she is all that and more
I need both…for sure my respect for the Afro diasporic women is complete and total
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Most excellent and salient points.
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I remember reading a piece about the young sister in the cosplay photo. I remember her receiving hateful messages on social media, from white cosplayers. I think she is lovely. As the other young women look like girl next door, and they are still attractive without being objectified as sex objects. Good job Ms. Phoebeprunelleo.
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I love cosplay and admire the men and women that are in to it. I have a couple of male friends who do it, but I could never feel comfortable enough to do it myself (in public). It makes you feel not only sexy but powerful. It is a beauty that I hate hearing that not others admire.
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Thank you, phoebeprunelle, for writing this post because even though it was an interesting read on the ” Interracial Post”, at the end of the day, black women are still left in the same spot they started with…”considered less than and wanting” by society at large.
When I lived in Europe and visited Spain, I was so disgusted by how the Spanish men took it for granted that black women were not virgins and would sleep with anyone at the drop of the hat,
but they held up Spanish women to much higher standards and expectations…. ohhing and awing over women who looked like “good girls”.
Black women have been disrespected for over 300 years… enough is enough.
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Ebony and Jet magazine used to be something black Amaericans could be proud of, since the death of the founder Mr. Johnson, the magazine has fallen off. The quality is not what it used to be. Same for Essence, things haven’t been right at Essence since Susan Taylor. It is a shame that it’s come to the sorry state it is today. I used to love all the magazines.
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Speaking of disrespect of black women, there was a Spanish magazine that featured our First Lady, Michelle Obama, as a topless French slave. Black women no matter what their achievements are still disrespected not just here but all over the globe.
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@ mary burrell
I was not aware the founder died. Thanks for that.
@ Linda
“Black women have been disrespected for over 300 years… enough is enough.”—-Very well said. Black women have and I have to wonder if it is not getting worse.
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Black women are the “Rodney Dangerfields ” of the world, They get “No Respect”.
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No offense to any of the commenters but Black women don’t have the power to actually be feminine in this racist, White supremacy run society because Black women aren’t seen as feminine. We deal with stereotypes of us being ugly, masculine etc. Our bodies are seen as some strange and exotic fruit and used to birth babies and have sex with any random guy. Black men fail to take up our responsibilities of being a father so we have to become mother/father to our children.
In other words, we are being effeminized by the media in order to divide the Black Community and further the agenda of White supremacy in this country.
I am young and have a life ahead of me. None of the things I listed above happened to me…….yet but I know as a Black woman, people don’t see us as feminine but at the end of the day, I know I am feminine and that is all that counts and matters.
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”Black women have been disrespected for over 300 years… enough is enough”
So true. Our bodies have been disrespected for over 300 years by White slaver owners, other races of men and even our own men too. It is sad but true. Many men don’t see Black women as more than exotic sex materials to experience upon but not marry.
I maybe a young Black woman but I know what Black women go through in this society and I plan to hold my head high.
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Much of the disrespect, racism and stereotypes we go through has to do with the fact that White supremacy’s goal is to effeminize us Black women and emasculate the Black man so that we don’t date want to date each other and look outside our race for mates. That way when we date and marry out and have kids with non Blacks, our racial population decreases in this country and our population goes extinct through racemixing.
Thus the effeminization of us Black women is apart of goals of White supremacy as well as the disrespect we get from White men, White women and even Black men in this country.
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Don’t have the power? I’m Canadian, and most Canadians I know of african and carribbean descent are first generation. The problem is that ABM don’t protect and promote ABW’s femininity. And going to schools where Eurasian is the majority, I know how this makes us bw look and how they treat us, luckily CBM are nice. But still I haven’t been blessed being mostly surrounded by non -BM. And having them treat me like I’m less feminine just based on skin tone, and showing emotion just makes u look crazy to them.
I realized that when a ww cries they show so much concern, but when it’s a bw, they just look you…it’s so annoying. And a lot of it comes from the media, and white supremacy. I’m not respected and made to feel like shit. But Nigerian culture promotes women to be classy and feminine like Angelique Noir. I don’t know about american culture which seems very different from are. And has different values, the one similarity is the importance of church in both.
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great post. as for the magazines I know jet and ebony had financial difficulties and jp morgan owns a good bit of them. and essence is owned by time warner, I don’t read magazines anyway but I’m not surprised they show black women in this way because they are owned or majority owned by white companies.
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I don’t see any shows or movies depicting us as nerds or virgins, except for a few like love and basketball and awkward black girl. Other than that it’s jezebel and sapphire. smh. until we start owning our own media we will always have our story told in this way.
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@ legion
I can kinda see where she’s coming from, we do have the power to be feminine but we don’t have the power of controlling if our femininity will be recognized and respected. Yes we have the power to create small things like blogs, vids, websites, to counter this anti black woman stuff and attacks on our femininity but not really on a large scale like tv would. sometimes I wish black ppl wouldn’t be on tv especially the ones that act a fool and play to stereotypes. add to that that black women are left out a lot of times and our sexuality is something to be controlled or exploited and our femininity is questioned or dismissed.
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And another thing is anytime we are seen as feminine ppl try to see if we are mixed and think the only way we can be feminine is to be mixed. example is when I watch some youtube vids of black women whether its hair or makeup or something its usually some comments asking if she is mixed especially if her hair is natural and long.
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Nice guest post Phoebe, you killed it. But seriously though, the way you arranged the pictures was like the equivalent to driving on a nice picturesque road with beautiful scenery and then all of sudden a deer jumps right in front making your car skit (the last two pictures) leaving you hyperventilating and going WTF??!! Well to me anyways *teardrop*….
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Interesting that the criticisms you have of black media are the same ones you have of the “white supremacist society”. I hope your not going to abdicate black personal accountability. Can it be those things you don’t like represent the truth? Or maybe they don’t represent the truth but are used because they get attention? Or you yourself are guilty of perpetuating them through your own behaviors and buying choices? I don’t know. Just asking. Otherwise, I tend to agree with you that those mags wouldn’t represent me or my values either. My advice is to be the change you want to bring. If you don’t want to see trashy, angry, promiscuous, etc then don’t act that way or patronize those who do.
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legion
I’d have to say that at least some of the appeal is getting in touch with those archetypes which resonate deeply within us
Hmmm… I wonder which archetype would resonate with me?
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I Don’t buy Essence and Ebony magazine,but this post pushed me further,to not even pick’em up, now I know why I have general disdain for them,that having to still see white women in a black female and black people magazines.
Fortunately we now have The NET,and its definitely a force for good, truth and justice.
Excellent Guest Post…
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Reblogged this on Mbeti's Blog and commented:
Femininity From a females perspective…..
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Wha? Oh! You think that because my name is Da Jokah that my archetype is, too. No way, man. My archetype is Mr Bean.
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@ Phoebe
Thank you for shedding some light on this dire circumstance!
We’ve drifted too far away from our African roots/moral compass. We have allowed ourselves to be seduced by western ways/values.
It’s interesting and telling Phoebe that not once did your post mention “dignity.”
And yet you managed to nail down what’s missing and undervalued in our current state of lack of true black pride, self-respect & community!
If we don’t quickly change what we seemingly celebrate and value the most (the ways of WHITENESS) our collective future is dim.
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The initial post is confusing to me and I AM a black woman!
I don’t agree that in general black femininity is attacked, I do believe however that White society attacks black femininity to keep white women on the top and Black women on the bottom.
Also, I disagree that anything is wrong with black men having magazines with showing Black women scantily clad. Nothing is wrong with that, would you rather they fill up these magazines with images of White women. I would LOVE a magazine of men ( of course black if geared towards the White community) where we get to see Black men scantily clad 🙂 A while back on another message board,
I do agree however that as a community we need to accept dark skin and natural hair more That includes not only Black men, but also Black women.
The top post is so confusing to me. Some want to argue and fight with Black men, when it’s not black men whom are responsible for how things work in society.
Did any of you stop to think that most times society pushes Black men to White women because of White supremacy. They are sent constant hints that seeing Black women as beautiful, and especially to go with one, threatens and makes them ( Whites) uncomfortable? Constant messages like this are what white society tells Black men.
Did you ever stop to think that the financial and physical threat Black men have looming over their head from white society makes it hard to take care of their families and black women? and that that also contributes to them straying or not taking care of black women, their kids and so forth enough.
The topic sounds sort of anti-black male and confusing, even for me as a Black woman. How can Essence cover all types of Black women, I do believe they put natural, bohemian types in their now!
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I had to agree with you on this point, That’s why I love message boards where we black women can talk open and honest. I do believe Whites have a weird issue with Black sexuality, both Black men’s and Black women’s.
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mstoogood4yall
Yes we have the power to create small things like blogs, vids, websites, to counter this anti black woman stuff and attacks on our femininity but not really on a large scale like tv would. b> Sometimes I wish black ppl wouldn’t be on tv especially the ones that act a fool and play to stereotypes. add to that that black women are left out a lot of times and our sexuality is something to be controlled or exploited and our femininity is questioned or dismissed.
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@Legion,
I don’t see anything wrong with magazines which celebrate women’s bodies and curves. The only women being exploited are those that decide to pose for them or whom do other things on the side which are not lady-like.
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Very nice article Phoebeprunelleo. It brings to mind the book Sister Citizen by Melissa Harris-Perry, she highlights the most stereotyped Black women into three general categories: the comforting Mammy, the lascivious Jezebel, and the angry Sapphire and how it impacts our politics. Highly recommend
We are so much more than the stereotype, thanks for highlighting the variety of Black Femininity. And I never did really like those magazine other than looking at the wedding/marriage blurbs in Jet.
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This post in no way is criticizing Black men.
I said i encourage Black male relatives–including my husband–to look for wholesome images of Black women to admire. That will in turn influence their behavior towards Black women for the good.
You will never convince me otherwise.
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@Legion
Good grief? Tell me what you mean.
I do applaud any Black woman for not reading Manessence and Ebony because these magazines don’t put out a good image of us or Black people in general. How do we expect others to respect us when many of us don’t even respect our own? These magazines, I find degrading and sexist to Black women everywhere. We Black women are just more than our bodies. We are women too.
And White su
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The goal of White supremacy is to effeminize us Black women. And these magazines are buying into this just from looking at the articles and pictures posted of us Black women. Thus I don’t support magazines like Ebony or Essence
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@phoebeprunelleo,
ok :), sorry to have misconstrued your post, thanks for clearing my misconceptions up!
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Re:
The top post is so confusing to me. Some want to argue and fight with Black men, when it’s not black men whom are responsible for how things work in society.
This post in no way is criticizing Black men.
The topic sounds sort of anti-black male and confusing, even for me as a Black woman. How can Essence cover all types of Black women, I do believe they put natural, bohemian types in their now!
I said i encourage Black male relatives–including my husband–to look for wholesome images of Black women to admire. That will in turn influence their behavior towards Black women for the good.
You will never convince me otherwise.
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@Legion
Thanks. I will without a doubt check it out.
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@ Legion
“Okay, I hear you. But, sometimes we want to change too many things. Sometimes you have to forget about changing the world and think and act more in terms of changing your own little private corner of the world. Look at what Phoebe did. She didn’t think, “how can I change the editorial board at Essence.” No, instead she said, “these guys don’t reflect my values and they are sending out damaging messages. I will stop having them be part of my world and I will present my view to family and friends and ask them to do the same.” I think this sort of action in the world can be quite fulfilling. “—Oh Yes!!! I agree.
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Excellent post! These things need to be said and acted upon. Well done, phoebeprunelle.
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@ legion
I agree, I do think small changes add up and it starts small, I hope one day eventually our positive image will be broadcast around the world.
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Finally, this is my topic.
I am a black woman in corporate America and I know Black men deal with White men trying to homo-sexualize them and being fought in the workplace as well, however as a black woman I find White people devote a lot of time trying to marginalize Black women.
How can we deal with this? Why is it assumed that we should not have a man, be wanted, have a family, feel attractive and so on? How can I deal with it when around White men (and women) ?
How does one deal with it when in the workplace, there are black men around, but they want the black females to feel shunned?
I need some assistance.
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Another question, Can we ever help whites get along with getting over their OBSESSION with us? With Black male and Black female sexuality, in particular!
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@ Mrs.Ocean-Graham
Unfortunately, the relationships between black males and black females in the U.S. were forged during 400 years of chattel slavery and we are still carrying out those degraded and dehumanizing traditions to this day.
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@ phoebeprunelle
Thanks for posting this, it’s a topic that needs to be addressed by both black males AND females
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TrojanPam,
Hello :), I guess above I am asking the same questions I posed to you ( and have posed to others before). It’s just so hard to grasp and irrational the attitudes I have to face.
I could NEVER imagine Black men coming at White women the way White men come at black women as if we are to walk around feeling like crap and not just feel unwanted, but be unwanted.
Even if they don’t like the Black race, it baffles me as to why they put so much energy into trying to split up the sexes, black men can talk to each other on the job but black women are to be marginalized.
It’s hard to deal with although I know why.
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@ Alicia
Without making this a long post, what I believe is at the root of marginalizing or perverting black femininity and homosexualizing black males is
fear of white genetic annihilation AND black reproductive superiority.
Black females being WHOLE and black males being WHOLE represents
MORE BLACK BABIES
And a greater possibility and probability of BLACK UNITY
And that is the greatest threat to white supremacy — which is why black people and the MOST targeted people in a white supremacy system
what I try to encourage black people is to NOT internalize the sick, racist mindset that falsely portrays us as inferiority
And I find that understanding the UNDERLYING CAUSES of some behavior, takes the burden off you and puts it where it belongs:
ON THE PERPETRATORS
I would suggest checking out Dr. Frances Cress Welsing (on my site or on youtube) and Mr. Neely Fuller, Jr ( theblackcodefiles.com )
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@TrojanPam,
It’s such a sick way of living and hard for me to grasp how anyone can be sitting around thinking like that and using that as a means to constantly abuse people. sick, sick, sick!
It’s just something I wish white men ( and women) would stop doing but I guess like racism, they will never stop doing that? I will just have to limit my time around them.
I don’t deal with that around Hispanics, Asians or anyone else, just whites. It’s weird having men trying to convince me that I’m not attractive and also trying to get black men not to find me as a black woman attractive. It’s like how a woman hates on a woman, not a man onto a woman.
Do white women really think that this is “ok”? I know they suffer from the same sickness of racism, but as women can they really sit seeing their men act out this racialized sexism to Black women and think it’s ok?
My Gosh!
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Thank You so much for this article.
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Yay, I love this topic. TY for Phoebe for this
I agree, not only about our sexuality, but I stopped looking in these “Black” magazines A LLLOOOOOOONGGG time ago. I was tired of flipping through hair magazines or “beauty” of black women. Only to see Nicki Minaj with her fake wigs or Hollywood starlets filled to the brim with makeup,photoshop or surgery.
I just got sick of it. Where’s the realness?!?!
And TY again for bringing the cosplay topic up. I have seen this go on countless times with it comes to us embracing different activities such as goth, punk, pop, and especially……..cosplay, There is ALOT of racism when it comes to this and it makes me sad, because a lot of black people (Black women mostly) get discouraged, because unlike the white, Asian , Hispanics girls that get embraced or get covers into magazines/blogs. We have to be “mixed” to be considered, which is bull. I have seen a few do the cosplay, or the “japanese scene” (harajuku/ulzanng/gyaru) But it would be nice we start embracing themes that have us in it or our culture. There was a new style infused with afrocentric/japanese twist called Udoli and bachiko, but I guess it didn’t catch on….yet. I hope with tumblr and all this new technology it will. because I need my nerdy sista’s up in here to bring it, I would be happy to see that style popularized same as the pin up girl look (And Strangely, I HAVE NOT seen that in a min) Tired of everyone giving me the 1.Nicki Minaj 2.Basketball Wives 3.Rihanna looks, we need a change.
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@ Alicia
I can understand why it’s hard to grasp irrational attitudes, just be glad that you do not think this way
but, just like a detective who is trying to catch a serial killer, he has to understand the killer’s motivations in order to catch him, no matter how unpleasant it is
Black people must get out of comfort zone, otherwise we will never fully understand (or accept) what motivates racism OR be able to protect ourselves and our children from it.
That doesn’t mean we have to reveal everything we think or go around trying to “tell” or correct white people. That is a total waste of time. They know what they are doing, they are NOT ignorant of the harm they are causing OR the wrongness of what they believe or do or say
they are trying to maintain the system of white privilege and white survival, so moral lessons are a waste of time.
Another thing I suggest is to NOT make this a “wnite man’s issue” along, many times he (pretends) not to find black females attractive in order to PLEASE and REASSURE and maintain the loyalty of the white female who is definitely on the same team–and the same page.
and if you look at the high numbers of white females holding high positions in entertainment, you will see the definite connection between that and the degrading images of black females.
We must get out of comfortable zone (which is really nothing but denial) and face the unpleasant truths so we can get STRONGER and more determined to fight and win this war against us
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I suppose it can go both ways, as, from what I’ve noticed, Black women are far less likely to flirt with, smile at, and pander to white men in the way that non-BW often do, even in the workplace…. Some white men may feel that Black women don’t view them as being ‘real men’.
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There might be quite a bit of resentment from WM because of this seeming lack of regard for them as men.
(My apologies, I didn’t check the username before posting my comment above.)
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Phoebe, I don’t read ebony or essence. What negative stories have they been printing about black women?
A while ago it seemed like everyone was talking about black women not getting married. Are you referring to that?
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Angel Melaku and Wankaego are two of the diciest chicks alive. I know a player who claims he once had a shot with Angel back when she was known as Fershgenet, though he could have been lying. East Africa produces some of the best women in the world, in my opinion.
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Great post Phoebe. So you’re a retro sista, too. I used to do the 50’s thing, but I’ve fallen for the 20’s and 70’s over the last few months.
The problem is, we don’t own anything. Look what happened to BET when Viacom bought it. And unfortunately, the brothas who are given the spotlight are no longer the Maxwell’s of the world. Only certain kinds of BM and BW are given shine. So whether it’s coming from a White director (Monster’s ball), or a Black male voice (Hip hop music videos and BM magazines), there’s no diversity in the images of BW. You are assaulted wall to wall with the most extreme primitive Black jezebel images, and how many Black male comedians have dressed up as fat Black mammies? So you’re getting it from outside the community as well as within. Do you remember “Soul plane?”
It’s constant. BW are going to have to get into positions of power and influence to balance our images for ourselves, that’s the only way.
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Alicia,
Many of the hate you experienced from whites are part of the backlash against Barack and Michelle Obama. Ever since the president took office, Black women borne a lot of the assaults from white men in power and it’s not going away.
Here’s a video by Frances Trotman regarding the neglect and assault on Black women:
(youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjLBZbWrvLs&w=560&h=315)
Book recommendations:
The Bible
Beauty Con Game
Black Feminist Thought
Where and When I Enter
Sister Citizen
S.B.
WordPress.com / Gravatar.com credentials can be used.
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@ stephaniegirl
Use parentheses not square brackets to disembed a YouTube video.
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“My Name is Racism” Poem:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=KvMUiBWcfvI)
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I don’t think the photo/magazine comparisons are fair. As we speak the current issue of Maxim magazine (which is primarily aimed at a white audience) has a white actress du jour on the cover with her breasts almost exposed. This is actually their usual cover style. Similarly Esquire magazine has Scarlett Johannsen on the cover dressed in a top designed to let everyone know that she has large mammary glands. I’m going to bet that both of those magazines have circulations that far dwarf the circulations of Black Men magazine. Each is considered “mainstream”. ALL of the vintage car magazines aimed at whites have white or occasionally hispanic cover models dressed in what could be considered immodest clothing in sexy poses while the centerfolds usually wear even less.
Ashleeta Beauchamp is also a burlesque model that is/was a member of (ahem) “Brazen Booties”. I’m at work now so won’t serve up any pictures but again I’m going to go out on a limb and bet that burlesque workers show more skin than the women on the cover of Black men magazine.
The models working in that industry have all sorts of pictures available, depending on what the shoot called for, what they’re comfortable with, how much they were paid, what sort of mood they were in, and so on. A model who does a “girl next door” shoot one month may do something much more provocative the very next month. SHOW magazine, which AFAIK is owned or operated by a black man, has pictures that range from nude to cheesecake/pin up to girl next door, etc. About the only conclusion one can make is that men(regardless of race) like looking at women-nude or clothed, provocative or innocent, curvy or skinny, bottom heavy or top heavy, black or non-black, etc.
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Abagond,
No problem.
Stephanie B.
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(http://www.youtube.com/embed/cjLBZbWrvLs)
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@ stephaniegirl
Just but the URL part in parentheses, like I did above.
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@ B.R.
You used the word “idiotic”. “Idiot” is a moderated word:
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Thank you.
Stephanie B.
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@Shady Grady
I think the problem for BW vs. WW, is that there are so many more diverse images of WW, in print and on TV. So WW have that balance, whereas BW tend to always be potrayed through stereotypes, like that of the a sexual mammy, or the oversexed jezebel, or the angry sapphire. And that’s when they’re shown, at all.
@stephaniegirl
I agree 100%. Since Obama got in, there’s been a huge backlash. It was always simmering under the surface, but as soon as the Obama’s got in, it exploded. That seemed to be the trigger.
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The problem I have with Ebony/Jet/Essence is their overall utter mediocrity and increasing irrelevance. Mostly they’ve devoled into the Black versions of celebrity based fluff like People magazine et al.
In terms of the images of BW, well mainstream magazines show mostly mainstream images. It’s not a surprise that they don’t show much, if any, alternative or fringe lifestyles photos or feature stories. Speaking of fringe, the BM magazines are the Black versions of Maxim and FHM which are themselves copies of Brit “laddie magazines” and they all feature similarly scantily clad women on their covers and in their articles. The Black versions have very low circulations and you’ll often find that neswstands keep old issues around as space fillers.
Also, I’m not sure I agree with the conservative notion of traditional feminity (I think you mean modesty?) and the follwoing is just not correct though it is understandable… “It should come as no surprise why Black women are denied our right to be seen as vulnerable, virgins, girls-next-door, (feminine traits) when those of us in our community would rather reward the last two images.” You may have a desire to be seen that way but you don’t have a right to be seen that way and I’m not sure the community rewards it as the BM laddie mags sell way less than the Ebony/Jet/Essence mags.
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Also I thought this was interesting as it addresses some of the issues raised about black people in cosplay.
http://chroniclesofharriet.com/2013/10/08/racism-in-fandom/
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ks:
Shady_Grady
It doesn’t matter; bottomline: Many marriage or family oriented men are not going to consider the Black women who pose for Black Men, King or Smooth, or any other Black woman who models herself in “real” life as such as serious long-term partners, wives and mothers to their children. There is nothing at this point that will convince me otherwise
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It really doesn’t change anything about the nature of this post.
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Adeen said: “Black womendon’t have the power to actually befeminine in this racist, white supremacy society.”
Hi Adeen, I disagree with your above statement. I disagree because self-respect is more powerful than the white man’s mighty dollar.
Case and point. When sista Angela Bassett was offered to play the role as “P Diddy’s” wife in the movie “Monster’s Ball”, she turned it down due ti its sexual content. Halle Berry took the part and looked every bit of a contemporary whore. MS. Berry won the best actress award for soft-porn acting. However, on the other hand, she lost a lot of respect as well. Meanwhile, Angela Basset is still very well respected.
Femininity is an internal, God given virtue. It’s not something that could be given to you by external forces.
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The absolute last time i picked up Ebony had an article entitled “Why are the Bothers Leaving Us?”
And i was like give me a break!
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@ phoebeprunelle
Thank you for the article.
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It is true that mainstream media, black or otherwise, “would not dare go near” the cosplaying sister in the photograph, nor does it choose to acknowledge the sisters who are into sci-fi, anime (I know several), rock music, K-Pop, J-Pop (I also know sisters who love all three of these music genres. I’m a rock fan myself), vintage clothing, science, computers, cars, the outdoors, even spongebob. We all know why so there’s no mystery here. Look at this as opportunities for black people who are interested in publishing, television, film etc., to develop new publications, programs, and movies that acknowledge and explore the diverse interests of the sisters.
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@ phoebeprunelle,
“It doesn’t matter; bottomline: Many marriage or family oriented men are not going to consider the Black women who pose for Black Men, King or Smooth, or any other Black woman who models herself in “real” life as such as serious long-term partners, wives and mothers to their children. There is nothing at this point that will convince me otherwise.”
Of course you can believe what you like but, IDK about that as I suspect that many more of those women than you might want to believe are already mothers or wives or serious long-term partners to somebody. You think in a time when even the average young white women is twerking her tail off, that a hot sister posing in a skimpy bikini is going put most dudes off? They might offend your idea of femininity but don’t underestimate them.
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Hence the supposed 72% of Black women having children out of wedlock? Yea…i thought so.
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@ks:
I think you are absolutely right about the models. No offense to sister phoebeprunelle, but I don’t agree that the women who pose for sexy photographs are any less likely to get married and have families than any other women. There is nothing wrong with those sisters, so I see no problem with them finding mates. I don’t think that in this day and age most people would hold modeling in a men’s magazine against anyone. I know I certainly wouldn’t.
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@ phoebeprunelle,
“Hence the supposed 72% of Black women having children out of wedlock? Yea…i thought so.”
Huh? Wait, are you blaming those “type” of women for for that? Wow…. Yeah if it wasn’t for those women the Black family would be like the Cosby show. So much for the Sistahood!…lol.
Anyway, you do know that Black teen pregnancy has dropped 48% since 1990 which was faster drop than the overall drop in TP of 42%, right? It looks like all that twerking and BM laddie mags aren’t having the efefct you imagine at least on the youngsters.
Also, The “72%” number is very misleading. Simply put, the birth rate for married BW (“MBW”) and unmarried BW (“UBW”) has fallen. It just that the birth rate for MBW has fallen faster than the rate for UBW and as such the latter represent a higher % of overall births. It’s basic stats but what a lot of people seem to do is focus on “72%” to build an irresponsibility meme and leave out the context which is that BW in general are having kids at a lower rate and, in reality, being “responsible”.
If you’re interested in the details, Tim Wise did a brilliant explanation of it at his site.
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@Pamela
Agreed and I didn’t even bring up the “selfie” issue. There are many people who won’t come anywhere near the cover of a BM laddie mag taking and sending photos of themselves that put anything those models are doing to shame.
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@ks
Thanks for the info, (Tim Wise). I’m gonna have to check that out. Now, see, I could have used that a few days ago, during one particular debate I got caught up in.
@Phoebeprunelle
I think it comes down to the fact that there just aren’t enough diverse images of BW. So these images, that permeate the landscape of the West, continually reinforce the old idea of the BW’s body being readily accessible. The lyrics to the videos we are shown in, are always the most degrading (“it must be your a55 cause it aint your face,”) or the infamous Lil Wayne verse, using the horrific death of a Black child which pushed civil rights into full gear, as a metaphor for conquering a BW’s private region. (The tone of violence that that envokes, though it’s about a sexual encounter with a BW, is very telling.) We also don’t have a “girl next door” pl@yboy, even when it comes to p0rn. (Not that we should, but even in glamour magazines, the image is the same.) We are seen through one light: that of being primitive, sexually available, ruined. And the major problem is the way it crosses over into real life. It’s the lack of balance for me. If you offered someone money to eat a plate of doo-doo, someone, somewhere will do it. There will always be Black glamour models as long as the demand is there. You can’t stop that. But, what can be done, is we can have images providing a balance, and more diversity in the images of BW in media. BM could also do with more diverse images outside of hyper-masculine, watered down “birth of a nation,” type images, to be honest.
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@blakksage: On point. You’re on the money brother.
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@Ebonymonroe,
You’re welcome. It’s worth the read as Tim Wise pretty much destroys one of the chief tenents of the “Black Cultural Pathology” propoganda.
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Hope, this isn’t off topic, but speaking of sisters in sci-fi, there needs to be a post on Octavia Butler. She was a black woman who’s work should be acknowledged in the sci-fi genre. I love the book “Kindred”
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Another black woman sci-fi writer, Nalo Hopkinson. “Brown Girl In The Ring”
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“It really doesn’t change anything about the nature of this post.”
It changes EVERYTHING about the nature of the post when one of the models you are holding up as an example of a wholesome girl next door image also performs in such burlesque shows as “Springtime in Bootietown”.
It suggests that people and their desires are not necessarily easily categorized as wholesome or unwholesome.
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“It doesn’t matter; bottomline: Many marriage or family oriented men are not going to consider the Black women who pose for Black Men, King or Smooth, or any other Black woman who models herself in “real” life as such as serious long-term partners, wives and mothers to their children. There is nothing at this point that will convince me otherwise”.
Hmm. Some of those women are indeed married just as the women who pose for Maxim, Loaded, Sports Illustrated, Playboy, Penthouse, FHM, etc are also often married with children. Models get married and have kids like anyone else.
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@stephaniegirl:
I disagree. It’s always been there, I started to experience it once I hit college back in 98.
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Re:
Alicia,
Many of the hate you experienced from whites are part of the backlash against Barack and Michelle Obama. Ever since the president took office, Black women borne a lot of the assaults from white men in power and it’s not going away.
Here’s a video by Frances Trotman regarding the neglect and assault on Black women:
(youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjLBZbWrvLs&w=560&h=315)
Book recommendations:
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@Caffeine & Nicotine
I disagree. I don’t think they honestly care about how we feel about them but rather are hateful. I have heard what you’ve stated before and it just doesn’t ring as true to me. I believe White men want to put/keep Black women down. Also, they want us to be or at least feel un-wanted and un-attractive.
No man is that stupid to think that a woman who gets abusive behavior from him, can in any way find him attractive or even attempt to “flirt” with said man. What they are showing is straight up hate!
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Re:
I suppose it can go both ways, as, from what I’ve noticed, Black women are far less likely to flirt with, smile at, and pander to white men in the way that non-BW often do, even in the workplace…. Some white men may feel that Black women don’t view them as being ‘real men’.
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Hello again TrojanPam,
My mother once said something along those lines. That racist Whites are happy with what they are doing and how they are behaving and I must just learn to realize that. Truer words have never been spoken as you’ve put them.
I don’t like to say in general that we are a threat to whites but rather THEY view blacks as a threat which is sick thinking.
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Re:
I can understand why it’s hard to grasp irrational attitudes, just be glad that you do not think this way. I am, indeed and am learning to just accept the madness of racism for what it is, but even at my age I find myself questioning it, trying to figure out what in God’s name could be going through someone’s head how they are so hateful at the sight of a person and because of the person’s skin color and features alone.
but, just like a detective who is trying to catch a serial killer, he has to understand the killer’s motivations in order to catch him, no matter how unpleasant it is You are so right, it is important to understand the motivations behind it so we don’t put their sickness onto each other and ourselves and ever think our mere existence could ever really be a threat to anyone or that for some reason we deserve indiscriminate hate or ill treatment
Black people must get out of comfort zone, otherwise we will never fully understand (or accept) what motivates racism OR be able to protect ourselves and our children from it.TrojanPam, so true!
That doesn’t mean we have to reveal everything we think or go around trying to “tell” or correct white people. That is a total waste of time. THIS PART WE KNOW IS SOOO TRUE: “They know what they are doing, they are NOT ignorant of the harm they are causing OR the wrongness of what they believe or do or say”
they are trying to maintain the system of white privilege and white survival, so moral lessons are a waste of time.You are right, but all the little things they do and obsessive behavior gets so confusing.
Another thing I suggest is to NOT make this a “wnite man’s issue” along, many times he (pretends) not to find black females attractive in order to PLEASE and REASSURE and maintain the loyalty of the white female who is definitely on the same team–and the same page.
and if you look at the high numbers of white females holding high positions in entertainment, you will see the definite connection between that and the degrading images of black females. I definitely know White women are often very hateful as well
We must get out of comfortable zone (which is really nothing but denial) and face the unpleasant truths so we can get STRONGER and more determined to fight and win this war against us
TrojanPam, I’m so glad I’m able to discuss with you and gain more knowledge, (((( HUGS ))))), seriously because dealing with this, especially as a woman is so creepy. As a woman we yearn to be protected, be found attractive, find a man whom can take care of us. It’s so creepy having racist Whites put so much effort into trying to leave black girls and women unprotected, in their racism, slandering black women, hating on our Black men whom are to be primary providers and so forth! Most importantly is how they try to divide up the sexes and hate on black couples.
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Hi TrojanPam, my additional replies are in the bold sections above!
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Thanks TrojanPam, I am checking out the website now.
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@ Alicia
Without making this a long post, what I believe is at the root of marginalizing or perverting black femininity and homosexualizing black males is
fear of white genetic annihilation AND black reproductive superiority.
Black females being WHOLE and black males being WHOLE represents
MORE BLACK BABIES
And a greater possibility and probability of BLACK UNITY
And that is the greatest threat to white supremacy — which is why black people and the MOST targeted people in a white supremacy system
what I try to encourage black people is to NOT internalize the sick, racist mindset that falsely portrays us as inferiority
And I find that understanding the UNDERLYING CAUSES of some behavior, takes the burden off you and puts it where it belongs:
ON THE PERPETRATORS
I would suggest checking out Dr. Frances Cress Welsing (on my site or on youtube) and Mr. Neely Fuller, Jr ( theblackcodefiles.com )
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Then we will have to agree to disagree…yea. You’re arguing and seeing fault with the post just for the sake of it.
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No. I’m criticizing BOTH Black male and female attitudes towards supporting the defeminization and over-sexualization of Black women…
Your line about “So much for the Sisterhood” speaks more about your beliefs than they do mine.
Many Black folk–both male and female btw–love to throw out the 72% of unwed Black mothers to justify bad-mouthing Black women yet offer no real alternatives as to how Black women can change our collective image to enhance the quality of not only Black female life, but Black life. Yet when alternatives are offered as to how Black women can be respected as ladies (dressing classier and feminine, learning social etiquette, having hobbies), then the same people cry foul. Ic0n was right when she said:
Honestly, this post was meant to raise some sort of awareness for Black women and men who want it. It was meant to be positive.
With that said, we can agree to disagree.
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My post was not about “outing” those sisters. Still it doesn’t change the fact that it is usually the only image that is offered to young Black women and girls as Black womanhood. If this were not true, then web series such as The Unwritten Rules wouldn’t be popular and garnering a lot of support from BOTH Black men and women viewers.
I think it is unwise to underestimate the power of image. I certainly am not playing that game anymore because we live in a world of archetypes and symbols. Rarely do we take the time to examine them and figure out what they mean. I am not and will not encourage other Black women to ignore the historical context in which society has viewed, manipulated and “othered” our bodies.
I’ll leave you with this quote because nothing that i have written in this post or about this topic will ever come close to being as articulate:
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Alicia: “I don’t think they honestly care about how we feel about them but rather are hateful.”
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Pay It Forward (akaCaffeine & Nicotine): Then there must be a basis for their hatefulness (or do you feel it is just irrational hatred– a hatred which has no perceived foundation?). If the basis is race alone, why aren’t these WM targeting BM also? Your white male colleagues aren’t all homosexuals, or are they? And, yes, some WM do care that they seem to go unnoticed by BW. I’ve read, on a variety of forums, comments wherein WM mention that they’ve never had a BW flirt with them or have even caught a BW checking them out on the sly, though they had such experiences with women of other races. These comments usually pop up on threads where some random loser writes an opening post declaring his non-attraction to BW
I mean, why would anyone waste so much time discussing people who do not hold their interest? To me, that type of discussion is usually nothing more than a case of “sour grapes”.
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Alicia: “No man is that stupid to think that a woman who gets abusive behavior from him, can in any way find him attractive or even attempt to “flirt” with said man.”
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Pay It Forward: Well, there probably are a few men out there who might think it, regardless of how stupid you think it makes them, but that was not my point. My point was that, if a WM is ALREADY carrying around the belief that — as a man — he will typically be regarded as ‘unworthy’ by most BW, then he will probably show resentment towards any BW with whom he is forced to interact. Obviously under such a circumstance, he most definitely would NOT expect BW to flirt with him, because he has already made up his mind that BW will do the exact opposite.
[It’s just a little theory of mine; I’m not advocating that Black women do anything as drastic as actually flirting with white men, lol, as I am also one of those BW who don’t flirt with white men. 😉 ]
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mstoogood4yall
And another thing is anytime we are seen as feminine ppl try to see if we are mixed and think the only way we can be feminine is to be mixed. example is when I watch some youtube vids of black women whether its hair or makeup or something its usually some comments asking if she is mixed especially if her hair is natural and long.
_____________
I’ve noticed something similar when a black woman is deemed attractive. People will wonder/ask if she’s mixed. Her features tend to get picked apart and in some cases, people will claim definitely, they came from another race/ethnicity even if it’s been proven she’s black all the way, despite perceived non-black features. .
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@Phoebeprunelle,
“Many Black folk–both male and female btw–love to throw out the 72% of unwed Black mothers to justify bad-mouthing Black women yet offer no real alternatives as to how Black women can change our collective image to enhance the quality of not only Black female life, but Black life. Yet when alternatives are offered as to how Black women can be respected as ladies (dressing classier and feminine, learning social etiquette, having hobbies), then the same people cry foul.”
Well I think I’ve shown that the 72% figure being thrown around is misleading at best and, imo, your alternative already exists. There’s nothing radical about being a feminine black woman because, as far as I can tell, most grown black women dress fine, are feminine, have social etiquette/skills and personal interests and/or hobbies. Most of them may not be Finishing School “Ladies who Lunch” fancy or fit what you seem to have in mind, but they’re pretty much okay in those areas. In the end, I think whatever lasting respect they receive as ladies more so comes down to who they really are as people and/or their actions rather than anything else.
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I’m too late to yet another great thread.
Very nice post, Phoebeprunell!
Keep up the good fight Legion
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First off, phoebeprunelle, I see you’re coming out of your writer’s shell. I hope you come by and do another guest post soon.
Second, I must admit that I bought Black Men magazine back when it was on magazine shelves at the store. Pictures of big booties were – and still are – my weakness like Snicker bars.
Looking back and reading this article, I see what the problem is. There is about as much reality in those kinds of magazines as you see in music videos. They’re just created a simulated reality to fantasize off of and influence.
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I think this is a great post and I feel that phoebeprunelle’s snapshot of everything wrong with the images of black femininity in the mainstream are accurate. I feel that when it comes down to conscious energy, conscious choices the white owned, mainstream media have decide what to do with that power they possess– they have historically chosen to attack the black family.
Each and every time, with the largest decline of positive imagery coming in the late 90’s with the slow disappearance of many Black shows that featured young positive images of us.
I have young daughters and the images of talent and beauty all reside on bodies that are white, with long hair and dark skinned men as love interests, best buddies, BFFs, super gay BFF and where is the black female?
She’s invisible as a main character, and at best, she’s Mammie. The fat, loud, dark skinned security guard that keeps kids in line–one who incites fear when she’s angered.
So my girls don’t watch any of these shows that are programmed to brainwash our children and give them false images that will sit and fester in their subconscious for a lifetime.
This is the audience that is most affected by phoebeprunelle’s observations! It’s the images that they are purposely filling the airwaves with that erase the notion of a stable black home with black children and colorful lives.
It is an attack, plain and simple. And so her observation of seeing a woman from her open front, or her shapely behind with the words BLACK MEN in the magazine section of 1 out of like, 3 magazines that cater to BLACK PPL, what image does a 13 year old girl walk away with in the magazine isle at the grocery store, flipping through for images that look the most liker her?
You guessed it.
SK
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I watched that TLC show on VHI and it was such a breath of fresh air to have an iconic group like that remind me that they didn’t have to be NAKED to be successful! They wore condoms to promote safe sex! Baggy jeans and big hats and they were still “Crazy Sexy Cool!” Their passion for music was represented well and the production of the film was awesome for a “real life biopic.”
Why do we always have to recreate history to get Black ppl shown in a great light? Like real women with dreams and wants and aspirations, why do we need to always recreate some real person or groups of ppl (like slaves or the 60’s morale trodden black person) for this to happen??
That is the question for today’s writers and producers. Why do you allow MSM to throw money at our past and not our future??
Random, sort of relevant thought, sorry. 😀
SK
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I think that there needs to be more positive representations of black femininity in the media before there is a shift in thought.
TV ON the RADIO – WILL DO This video possesses both a positive view of black love and black femininity. (Aside from the escapism and and addiction)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXLpXu9T7j0)
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Phoebe,
“Many Black folk–both male and female btw–love to throw out the 72% of unwed Black mothers to justify bad-mouthing Black women yet offer no real alternatives as to how Black women can change our collective image to enhance the quality of not only Black female life, but Black life. Yet when alternatives are offered as to how Black women can be respected as ladies (dressing classier and feminine, learning social etiquette, having hobbies), then the same people cry foul. Ic0n was right when she said:
Being a feminine Black woman is radical”
The thing is that black women should be respected as human beings no matter how they are dressed. The disrespect highlights the sexist and racist attitude of the people disrespecting black women.
Thise people are the ones who need to change. The media needs to change. We need to stop supporting racist and misogynistic mediums.
Misogyny and racism won’t stop if all black women just wear classier clothes and never have sex outside of marriage.
Women need to be empowered to set their own standards not to conform to the standards of others, to stop catering to the desires of everyone else for approval.
The idea that I need dress classy to be respected is just as damaging as the idea that I need to be half naked to be desired.
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ks, i think you misread me. Practical social etiquette has nothing to do with what you’re describing.
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No it won’t Solesearch, nor do i believe that i have implied it will. Those are a few ways in which i think many Black women can start feeling better about themselves in a world full of archetypes and stereotypes that won’t budge. I have noticed that when Black women feel better about themselves they make better personbal decisions..
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phoebeprunelle,
“ks, i think you misread me. Practical social etiquette has nothing to do with what you’re describing.”
Apologies if I did so. I think I hear what you’re saying above but I think most adult black women already have practical social etiquette, no?
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My honest question would be then, why all the complaints about Black women? It’s an honest question.
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Reblogged this on Anna Suki and commented:
I love this post and I promise to do my opinions on the ‘strong black women’ stereotype which I’m against for a number of reasons.
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phoebe,
“Those are a few ways in which i think many Black women can start feeling better about themselves in a world full of archetypes and stereotypes that won’t budge. I have noticed that when Black women feel better about themselves they make better personbal decisions..”
If we want black women to feel better about themselves I’d say they should realize these images are just racist and misogynistic stereotypes, a reflection of society not them. That’s what has to change, not clothes or behavior.
Black women’s behavior and dress would only need to change if the stereotypes were true.
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Adeen:
No offense to any of the commenters but Black women don’t have the power to actually be feminine in this racist, White supremacy run society because Black women aren’t seen as feminine. We deal with stereotypes of us being ugly, masculine etc. Our bodies are seen as some strange and exotic fruit and used to birth babies and have sex with any random guy. Black men fail to take up our responsibilities of being a father so we have to become mother/father to our children.
blakksage said: I disagree with your above statement. I disagree because self-respect is more powerful than the white man’s mighty dollar.
Very very true blakksage.
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phoebeprunelle,
“My honest question would be then, why all the complaints about Black women? It’s an honest question.”
Complaints from whom? If you’re talking about some of the back and forth here, putting aside the silly over the top stuff, that seems more like particular personal complaints/issues than an overall thing against black women.
If you’re speaking of the general societal tone, then I ihink Solesearch has it right. The nature of oppression and the internalization of it tends to lead to the oppressed group to strive for, lack of a better word, “perfection” so as to try and relieve the burden of opression internally and externally when, in reality, even if every BW were ready for their Vogue close-up and the out of wedlock birth rate were 0%, they would still find something else to bash Black folks for as that’s the way opression works.
Now don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with striving to do better for it’s own sake and there are few things more arresting than a physically and mentally well put together BW. One of my pet peeves is the astounding length of time the ridiculous pants-below-the-waist thing has lasted. I thought it was just going to be one of those youth fads that people would look back on when they got older with the usual mix of playful shame and nostalgia but when I see grown a… men well into their 30s and so on still rocking that nonsense all I can do it smh.
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@PayItForward:
That is completely FALSE and I have learned that over the years. That has come up when I and other black women have discussed this white men hating black women pattern, but I have found it to be false. Not the level that White Men put it to. Denial of jobs, harassment on the job, wanting us to feel low, wanting us to be unwanted and shunned. Nope, I think it’s more of them simply not having some psycho racial issues. I know on my job since a black guy not only joined the team, but sits near us that the white guy who was a mild jerk has gotten worse with attacking me primarily (I’m a black woman). It’s so sick and weird.
They want us put down and kept down and in a hurt mode!
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I meant “white men hating on black women”, not all, but a large percentage!
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Alicia wrote:
“@PayItForward:
“That is completely FALSE [….] ”
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Well, Alicia, all I will say to the above declaration is that you are just as entitled to voice your opinion (you can shout it all you want but that still is all it is) as I am to mine! 😀
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Great post, Phoebeprunelle.
It really does look like only one type of Black woman is represented, and that one type looks like an angry Jezebel. Feeding the stereotypes.
Please do correct me if I’m wrong, but it also seems to me like the physical idea of a feminine body is very restrictive when it comes to Black women. Either you have the big boobs, tiny waist, wide hips, round bum, and a visibly curvy body from both a head-on and profile view, or you are not a Black woman. I’ve seen and heard this body type lauded over and over as THE Black woman’s body, as if Black women can’t (or shouldn’t) have any other body type. And yet I have seen for myself there is plenty of diversity in body type and beauty in every one of them. I’ve witnessed Black women who do not fit this tiny box talking about how much extra crap they get thrown at them for not fulfilling the criteria. How they’re `not Black enough’ and `not woman enough’ and certainly not considered beautiful. For something completely out of their control, they are made to feel like the ugliest and most undesirable in the world.
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“For something completely out of their control, they are made to feel like the ugliest and most undesirable in the world.”
Emphasis on attempt to make feel like – otherwise known as demoralization in my book,all of those women are beautiful ,but I don’t think the bottom two would be so willing to pose and act as such if they where more conscious & aware of who they are as african american women, and thereby didn’t feel the need to conform to eurocentric standards of beauty and conduct.
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(http://youtu.be/VCtCEKzmMsQ?t=54m6s)
To get a cinematic idea of what white women thought of black women during the antebellum south that definitely feeds into how black woman are seen today.
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Beauchamp’s complexion probably looks off because she is half-white.
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I can’t help but think; the first images are aimed more at women whereas the last images are aimed more at a masculine crowd.
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I am shocked NO ONE highlighted that EBONY & ESSENCE (I believe JET too) magazine are WHITE SPONSORED or WHITE OWNED.
Once you realize that unflattering fact, you would understand my BLACK WOMEN GET misrepresented.
Also, @EbonyMonroe, there are many black women in America in positions of power.
They are just NBW, who aid & abet white supremacy & to help whites & hurt blacks.
Simple. But I still like & GET the overall gist of this post & black women who are about enriching the black community do need to get into positions of power.
Good day
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Subscribed
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@Adonis
I would not call them bdwnchs, I’d say they’re misinformed sellouts, just as many in positions of power are on the opposite side of the gender fence, in the Western Black community. There are many BM & BW in positions of power, but there is a lot of cherry picking in terms of who is allowed in, according to who will conform. The ones who won’t, are not given the positions. This actually happened to Hip hop, (see documentary “Hip hop beyond beats and rhymes”).
@Mbeti
As always, wonderful post, great points, and I completely agree.
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@V-4,
Beauchamp is biracial–a fact she’s never hidden from as she calls herself the Noir pin-up from time to time, but in most of her photos she is unmistakably brown…
i think that picture has a lot to do with lighting.
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@ Adonis
“I am shocked NO ONE highlighted that EBONY & ESSENCE (I believe JET too) magazine are WHITE SPONSORED or WHITE OWNED. ”
Actually I did further up the thread jet and ebony were having money troubles and jp morgan owns a big chunk of those companies.
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@Legion,
I have to say that many a retro girls (including myself) worship Dita…she is our muse. 🙂
I don’t go as far as trying to lighten myself though. In fact just the opposite; i’m using a sunless tanner because i think my legs don’t match the rest of my body, but V-4 is right about Beauchamp’s dual heritage, which could be a factor in why she looks considerably light in that photo–however i’m used to seeing her be very brown.
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@mstoogood4yall
I stand corrected. Thank you.
People fall for the straw man public figure & appearance all the time.
Who is behind the scene, running the show.
Follow the money.
& @ebonymonroe
You are right. White people know who to hire to do their bidding.
I was just stressing their are a lot of BW in power positions, but they are NBWs
Not black women who happen to date white men, but are not being an enemy to the black community. Or cool, successful black women.
Big difference. Know the difference
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@ Adonis
Yep they use token blacks and have them in front to make us think they are the ones to blame and hope we take our anger out on them. Sure they have black editors at those magazines but since white companies own most or all of the company then u already know they have a say in what they can and cannot publish.
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“i’m using a sunless tanner because i think my legs don’t match the rest of my body.”
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I used to do the very same thing in my teens and 20s whenerver I’d go bare legged. My complexion otherwise is a light honey, but my legs and feet are nearly white. The product I was using in my teens, though, left my legs fireball orange. It was horrid stuff really, but I felt it still looked better than my pasty legs looked without it.
I’m sure current sunless tanners are more realistic looking, though I rarely go bare legged nowadays, so it’s no longer an issue for me.
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Lighting has a lot to do with it; in the less professional shots she tends to be a bit on the paler side, more of a mocha/milk in coffee kind of skin than brown.
Which is interesting, reverse white washing I guess.
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Alicia,
What do you think of this essay by Michaela Angela Davis?
http://jezebel.com/12-years-a-slave-rage-privilege-black-women-and-whit-1452173238
S.B.
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^That article is no good..
Davis ultimately does what MANY Black people do–and that is resolve white women of their willing participation in slavery and the ongoing oppression of others.
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@stephaniegirl,
I have to agree with phoebeprunelleo, it weirdly paints white women as victims when they are not. Many choose to be just as hateful, discriminatory and racist as their fellow white men. They are not victims at all.
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Re:
stephaniegirl
Alicia,
What do you think of this essay by Michaela Angela Davis?
http://jezebel.com/12-years-a-slave-rage-privilege-black-women-and-whit-1452173238
S.B.
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@Alicia
HOW DARE SHE???!!!!
I do not believe this Black woman had the nerve to paint White women as equal victims of slavery as Black women. I am truly disgusted! Excusing racism among White women towards Black women as some jealousy they were victimized with by White men r@ping Black women. I have not been this disgusted in a long time. They can take that “long suffering White woman victims of slavery” and shove it. What is wrong with people.
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Alot of times in corporate America, it’s white women who try to get the white male/men to attack and not hire/or fire a black woman in the workplace. Not all white women are hateful but most often, yes. Many of us have experienced it. There’s always a hater in the workplace, true. however in discussing it along racial lines, white women are very active in terms of anti-black discrimination and racism.
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They, too, act in a disapproving way “rolls eyes” when black people talk to each other or a black woman and male talk to each other. it’s so weird!
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I wonder how racist women felt about White men attacking black women back in those days and if as women they felt any way about it, I doubt it. Which goes to show the psychotic-ness of racism.
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“Alot of times in corporate America, it’s white women who try to get the white male/men to attack and not hire/or fire a black woman in the workplace. Not all white women are hateful but most often, yes. Many of us have experienced it. There’s always a hater in the workplace, true. however in discussing it along racial lines, white women are very active in terms of anti-black discrimination and racism.”
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I’ve never been hired for a position when my interviewer was either a WW or a BM. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.
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I’ve read that many of the wives of slaveholding WM were well aware that their husbands were going to the slave quarters at night to visit one of the BW slaves and were highly resentful of it. And, so, a lot of the time when the white wife took notice about the place of a little mixed race child who bore a striking resemblance to her husband, she’d try her best to get the child sold off to a faraway plantation — so as not to have the sight of said child as a constant reminder of her husband’s infidelity.
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Interesting…i’ve never been offered a position if a ww was interviewing me either. Not one.
Usually, my best bet has been with Black women. I’ve never interviewed soley with a Black man–usually, it’s a team of Black women and Black men conducting the interview and i do pretty well in those circumstances.
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I’ve been hired by White women several times. However, I’ve already had other experiences on the job, temping and other places where it was White women doing the major hating, rather than the white men. I know other women whom have already dealt with the same experience.
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i don’t agree with this post.
i feel like its too personal. i feel, essence magazine and ebony shows black women from all walks of life.
the women on the king magazine cover is apart of black society and is very much feminine in their way. sorry but femininity is not a specific look. besides there is no such thing as femininity. besides why black women have to prove who they are. They have children don’t they?
@ Alicia
i had the same experience that you are having. i find that white people don’t like people who are themselves, they want you to be how they want you to be. look how they want you to look. etc. remember their history they are slave owner\slave drivers. A lot of them still have that mentality. i try my best not to be around too much of them because they are trouble and trouble makers.
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@ Alicia and @phoebeprunelleo
Well here’s more food for thought. Another way how White racist men have imposing ideas of femininity around the world. Check out any of the Asian forums and see for yourselves what I’m talking abt… White men idealizing Asian Women as the ultimate feminine women (not the Indians, Pakistanis types, but the Japanese, Chinese types) and Asian men are mad and bitter about this because of rejection by both their women and White women as well (and they definitely wouldnt be caught dead dating women of other races) These same White men diss their own White women and regard them as *unfeminine*! – who would’ve thought – in comparison to their Asian counterparts. Any wonder why there’s this common sighting of WM/AW pairings all over the place and White women feeling under threat from Asian women due to the dreaded Asian fetish (yellow fever) among their WM?
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@taylormadegirl,
Ok, so i’m not sure what this post has to do with white men/Asian women pairings???
That seems like a leap to me, but anyway i was specifically addressing how femininity or lack there of affects the lives of Black women in their own communities.
I’ll go ahead and indulge you just this once–Asian women are more likely to marry Asian men the world over. I see waaaay more East Asian families with an Asian wife and Asian husband and children than i do AW/wm (this seems to be the exception and not the norm)..sure people could bring in the stats of Asian women being the race and gender to marry out more, but i think this does not say much about actual raw numbers, Asian women as a whole, and is in fact very racist towards Asian women. I have come across plenty of Asian women who profess an undying preference for Asian men. And, if you didn’t already know, since 2011 the number of Asian females dating/marrying white males has significantly dropped due to more Asian males relocating to the U.S. as students and workers.
Racist white women can feel threatened by any woman of color when that particular woman/women do not fit into any of the stereotypes or archetypes that white people have assigned to us. This happens more than people want to admit and it is why in recent years Black women in professional settings have begun taking measures to protect themselves from being harassed, bullied and lied on by white female colleagues. It has happened to me twice at work, however, both times i was able to come out unscathed.
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[…] Black femininity […]
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Reblogged this on Green Grass and Tea Leaves.
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http://www.blackandfemme.com/
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I don’t always agree with Phoebe, but she did very well on this piece…sorry I am so late with my comment! 🙂
Many of the other folks here have shared some valid points on this subject. My thoughts on femininity, especially Black femininity…I will admit that I often viewed Black women as unfeminine when I was growing up.
This was due to many of the racist images out there, and also because many of the girls/women in the inner city (“hood”) I grew up with tended to fit the stereotypes. They were often loud, mean, shrill, and aggressive. They often carried themselves in a way that was unladylike. As I entered puberty and started dealing with unwanted advances from males, I too started to carry myself in a similar way. This was a method of protecting myself…I had already experienced sexual abuse and I was raped at 13. Sometimes this is the reason that Black women act in “unfeminine” ways, but few people ever stop to consider that.
My mother is a Caribbean woman and is very feminine in her own way, but she also has a “tough” side that comes out easily.
I have a cousin who has rarely ever been smaller than a size 16 but she is very feminine with her style and men flock to her in droves. My aunt Beverly passed away recently at 62 but she was one of the most feminine women I’ve ever known.
She was dark-skinned and full-figured with short natural hair. She wore very little makeup; her husband loved her “natural” appearance. She wasn’t the glamorous type. But she had this sweetness, this softness about her that everyone noticed. She had a real presence when she walked into a room. She had a soothing, mellifluous voice. She had a beautiful smile that lit up her whole face. She was artistic. She was confident in herself as a Black woman. She was proud of who she was without devaluing others. To me that is the definition of femininity…it was effortless and genuine.
I think that for many Black women (and this includes me as a mixed-race woman, because unlike what some here might believe, women of mixed race are not exempt or immune to the same issues) we need to define what femininity is to us, not only as a whole, but as individuals.
Is it about looks? Style? Attitude/behavior? Or all of the above? Society often trains us to hate ourselves and each other…our hair, our skin, our very existence. And because of this (and sometimes painful experiences or lack of positive role models and influences) some Black girls/women aren’t in tune with their femininity.
It isn’t because Black women are inherently unfeminine; it is because we are often devalued in comparison with other races of women, sometimes by Black men. I hope that doesn’t sound “anti-Black male” because that isn’t my intent…but in my experience, it is often true.
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What I mean by the last statement is that nurturing starts at home. If a young girl of any race but especially a little brown or Black girl grows up in a home being affirmed and loved by both parents, particularly her father or a father figure, she will feel that it is safe to show her feminine side.
But that same young girl, if she happens to grow up in a toxic environment, if she is made to feel worthless because of her skin or features or the texture of her hair, if she is assaulted or hurt…she will often bury the part of her that is feminine in order to survive.
I saw a brilliant post on this over at another blog, on how some little brown and Black girls suppress their femininity as a result of being devalued. It resonated with me like this post from Phoebe does.
As to the media examples Phoebe cited, I’m also inclined to agree with that to an extent.
Black women are often portrayed as having “attitude”…I have been unfairly stereotyped in this way despite being shy and soft-spoken. But some people will always cling to the notion that all Black women are “sassy” even when confronted with a more reserved type of Black woman.
The two pictures of the scantily clad Black women above? I have mixed feelings on that. On the one hand, I feel it is about time that we stop treating Black female sexuality as something to be ashamed of. On the other hand, it is problematic because of the racism added to the sexism that many Black women often face. We are called “B’s” and “hoes” in lyrics and on the street, we are also demeaned by society in general. Sometimes ignorant people will see certain images and attach judgments to those images.
I also notice that there is a type of aggressive femininity being touted as mostly Black femininity these days…look at the Real Housewives of Atlanta. Or any other show/film with Black women who have long flowing weaves or wigs, wearing Louboutin heels, tight shift dresses, and are constantly being catty.
It is rare these days to show a Black woman or group of Black women on TV who are as diverse as anybody else. This is why I seek out examples of feminine Black women myself instead of looking to the media. Ruby Dee? She was feminine. Diahann Carroll? Feminine. Lena Horne? Feminine. Dorothy Dandridge? Feminine. Anita Baker? Very feminine, with her pretty eyes and lovely voice. Ditto for Hazel Scott.
But images like these, positive images, are often buried beneath stereotypes and assumptions.
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For almost a week now I have wanted to return back to this post to comment. I have typically been a tom boy of sorts, but after allowing my hair to go natural and going for more vintage styles I feel….whole. More feminine and girly of sorts. I am also taking a small step back towards cosplay. Not ready to dive in but who knows what the new year will bring. 🙂
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