Joshua Solomon (c. 1974- ) was a White American university student who made himself look Black in 1994 to see what it would be like. He was going to do it for about four months and visit different parts of the country. He only lasted a week.
We know of at least three other “Black like me” cases:
- 1947: Ray Sprigle
- 1959: John Howard Griffin
- 1969: Grace Halsell
Griffin is the famous one: he wrote “Black Like Me” (1960). When Solomon read his book in high school he knew right then that he wanted to try it himself.
Solomon grew up in Silver Spring, Maryland and had plenty of Black friends:
Whenever something went down, they always said it was racism. Education, jobs, crime, poverty, social misunderstandings – they blamed everything on color. “It’s a white man’s world,” they would say.
But he did not believe his black friends:
… secretly, inside, I’d always felt that many black people used racism as a crutch, an excuse. Couldn’t they just shrug off the rankings of ignorant people?
He did not believe Langston Hughes or Cornel West either.
So he went to a doctor who gave him pills to turn his white skin brown. The doctor warned him that it could lead to liver damage.
Solomon shaved the hair off his head but dressed the same, acted the same, talked the same. He had the same money and education. It was just his brown skin and bald head that were different (pictured above).
After about a month of taking pills his skin was dark enough for the doorman at his brother’s place in Baltimore to be rude and suspicious.
He travelled to Washington, DC, Atlanta and, like Griffin, Gainesville, Georgia.
As a White man he looks and smiles at White people and they smile back. But as a Black man whites look away, lock their doors, assume he is dangerous or up to no good.
Shopping while Black: One time a white person did not look away:
I went to a nearby drugstore, a white employee followed me around the store. At the drink refrigerator, I turned suddenly and stared right at her, letting her know that I knew what she was doing – shadowing me as if I were a potential thief. I’d hoped to embarrass her, but she didn’t flinch. She stared right back, hands on her hips.
The police would stop him even though he was just walking down the street minding his own business.
Restaurants would tell him they were full, even when they were not, restaurants where nearly everyone sitting down was – White.
White respect and friendliness that he took for granted was gone. Instead Whites regarded him with disdain, even fear. He met a homeless White man, blond hair, blue eyes, who had almost nothing in this world: even he looked down on Blacks!
By his second day in Gainesville he was in tears. It was just too much! He went back home to let the pills wear off and turn white again. *Clicks heels three times.*
Thanks to Matari for suggesting this post.
See also:
- Accounts of his misadventure:
- His article in the Washington Post and the piece on him in Jet magazine
- YouTube: his appearance on Oprah – well, two minutes of it
- white privilege
- stuff he experienced:
- Of dusky maidens
- Danzy Senna: Caucasia
- wigger
- The Five Rules of Racial Standing
- Why do whites hate, demonize, fear and look down on blacks?
“By his second day in Gainesville he was in tears. It was just too much! He went back home to let the pills wear off and turn white again. *Clicks heels three times.*”
Lol haha! These WP take everything for granted, I can’t believe some actually think we make up racism, especially bw in canada i know ww get treated better, period. If they cry there seen as feminine, and I’m seen as crazy…this is why I believe why ppl should go to school, especially blacks, with ppl of their own race…cuz all these non-blacks, are full of stereotyping.
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I am curious….how did he view racism after the experiment? Also other than his skin he did not really look black.
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This is exactly why I am very hard on my race at times. I know that not all whites are racist and I know that not all white conservatives are racist. However due to my white skin I am privy to the comments made when there are no people of color in the room. As I grew older and found out in these circles who was racist and who was not I found myself quick to defend my fellow brothers and sisters of color to the point I had reverse racism of sorts, I started looking at every white person as a racist, except for myself of course and my wonderful father who has never used a derogatory word to describe any person of color or minority. I have also been extremely proud of my race as I have become quite political in recent years and watched half my country vote for Barack Obama. I was happy for my black countrymen and women but also so elated to see so many wonderful white people who were just like me. I still quickly lash out at ignorant people who have it all but demonize people who have nothing and who have to work uphill just to make ends meet. It should be no secret nor should there be a difference of opinion when it comes to the subject of equality in this country, Black men and women have it much tougher than white men and women. Of course their environment makes the biggest difference and those of privilege will have it easier than others and I have to admit it has gotten better over the years, another thing I am very proud of. I am proud of my bi-racial family and I believe because of my family and my history living in diverse areas of California that I have been blessed to see the world the way it should be. Anyway just my two cents, thanks…
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that’s interesting, i just read his report yesterday, i don’t know how i stumbled across it, he didn’t really go there like ‘black like me,’ he kind of gave up.
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I personally think that blacks should stop trying to get the respect of whites and instead work on decreasing our dependence on them. When you do that, you take away their power.
Good example would be the bus boycotts. They did two things……change their own behavior and remained united. They simply said, if I can’t ride the front of the bus, I will just stop riding the bus.
Why do we blacks continue to try an appeal to an emotional side that doesn’t exist? Stop looking for respect. They thrive on money and power. You stop the money from flowing and you take back your power.
My 5 point plan
Stop spending your money except on necessities such as food, shelter and clothing.
Take all that money that your are saving and pay down debt
Once debt is paid off, create an emergency fund
Once that is completed, black communities can now start funding our own businesses and educations. Once we’ve created our own businesses, we hire our own people
Start funding scholarship funds for education.
All this can be done without changing a single law or begging some politician to create new laws and polices
It all starts with two things
CHANGE OUR OWN BEHAVIOR AND REMAIN UNITED
That is the reason why we are allowed to ride in the front of bus today!
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Excellent
I can prove my point with WHITE scholars across these decades who were honest & brave enough to tell the truth, before I can destroy the arguments of @xpraetorious & the other closeted white nationalists.
It is okay to be white, what to keep the white race going, understandable.
But the sh*t that Joshua Solomon has experience, got to go.
And black men & women gotta take the lead by putting their foot down on a daily basis, and hurt this economy financially.
Good day. And Abagond, you deliver early & often.
Respect!
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And Abagond, if I am breaking any rules just give me a gentle reminder, if I am getting dirt on your carpet unintentionally.
Let me know. Good day.
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@ Yavenay and Adonis
Exactly!!! I could not have agreed more.
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I have taken it a step further and decided to make my own garden. That way I have my own supply of fruits, herbs, and vegetables.
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I still think it a weird story, why risk liver damage to get a story, we can get a hundred times AND much better written, from people who do not have to fake it?
Of course, in that context there needs to be a reason to get it told, like warning a black child just from the airport, or falling in love with somebody from that land north of Africa.
About that white race thingy, it seems that compared to Otzi, the Bronze Age Iceman all modern Europeans have already considerable drops of black blood…
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@Teddy1975
Most self-identified white people know the deal. They know that black people have never gotten a fair shake, and want to maintain that.
But alot of whites listen to the FoxNews rhetoric, and it is an excellent to assuage guilt & actually BELIEVE that blacks do it to themselves.
But when Joshua started to get the black treatment, it was a WHOA! Moment for him.
I would not be surprised if he experience some sort of PSTD trauma from the clear juxtaposition of treatment he received just by changing his skin tone.
I pop my collar to the man. And James Loewen
As much as I careless about the Tim Wises of the world sometimes, they get it.
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Yavenay,
“Once that is completed, black communities can now start funding our own businesses and educations. Once we’ve created our own businesses, we hire our own people.”
What is preventing us from doing this now?
I think it is the fact there is no “us” or “we”. There are just individual black people with no organization to move resources in the black community where they can be put to the best use.
Without organization our resources just go back into “white” communities.
Could we even create an organization for this purpose without breaking equal opportunity laws?
When you say we shouldn’t worry about gaining the respect of white folks, you’re saying we shouldn’t worry about gaining the respect of the American government.
It all comes down to integration vs segregation. I don’t see anyway AAs as group can be successful in a segregated society where the American government is only or firstly responsible to white people. The American government is the organization the American people has elected to facilitate entrepreneurship and education. Should we not care if it isn’t educating black people or facilitating black entrepreneurship?
How do we balance integration and segregation to create independent and successful black communities within America?
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teddy1975,
If a person is racist, I think it precludes them from finding black people credible especially in regards to the morality of white folks.
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Thank you for this article I would love to read this story,the second day he gave up on a four month experience lol if only black people could do the same,unfortunately black people have to live this fate almost every day for the rest of their life..
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“Yavenay
I personally think that blacks should stop trying to get the respect of whites and instead work on decreasing our dependence on them. When you do that, you take away their power.
Good example would be the bus boycotts. They did two things……change their own behavior and remained united. They simply said, if I can’t ride the front of the bus, I will just stop riding the bus.
Why do we blacks continue to try an appeal to an emotional side that doesn’t exist? Stop looking for respect. They thrive on money and power. You stop the money from flowing and you take back your power.
My 5 point plan
Stop spending your money except on necessities such as food, shelter and clothing.
Take all that money that your are saving and pay down debt
Once debt is paid off, create an emergency fund
Once that is completed, black communities can now start funding our own businesses and educations. Once we’ve created our own businesses, we hire our own people
Start funding scholarship funds for education.
All this can be done without changing a single law or begging some politician to create new laws and polices
It all starts with two things
CHANGE OUR OWN BEHAVIOR AND REMAIN UNITED
That is the reason why we are allowed to ride in the front of bus today!”
I’ve been saying this type of thing, ever since i joined this blog.
I see black people on this blog, waste their time,energy and brain power, arguing with racist white people.
There is nothing to convince white people of, being they are completely aware of racism,white supremacy and white privilege.
They just have to deny all of it, because if they don’t and admit to those three things, their whole power structure will crumble.
You can’t reason with racist white people, you can’t use common sense and logic with racist white people but despite this, black people are more than willing to go back and forth with them on this blog to prove that they’re racist.
Whats to be gained from this? Why not talk directly to your own black people that need your advice and help?
The majority of bloggers on this site, are so busy arguing and fussing with white racist, they don’t have the time to talk about the things that would bring about our independence of white people.
I mean talk DIRECTLY to black people, not talking to a black person as a result of something a white racist says on a thread about what black people, should be doing.
The irony of this is that, socially conscious black people that should know that this is all apart of the white man plan, to infiltrate black blogs for the sole purpose of causing chaos and confusion, fall into the trap that they talk about on this very blog, every single day.
I have respect for abagond as i enjoy his articles but i think he makes it a point to make white racist, comfortable by allowing them to come onto his blog to provoke black people into arguments.
I believe abagond knows that racism is a hot topic for white and black people, so he allows for the dissension to occur, among black and white people on his blog. Its great fodder for threads being filled with heated comments.
I won’t go as far to say abagond allows this for money via advertisements on this blog, because there are no advertisements, that i can see.
I do however, believe that there is a hidden agenda by allowing white people ( xPraetorius ) to spew their ignorance with full autonomy.
I know he won’t allow for white people to straight out insult black people but this is to be expected, so its nothing special far i am concerned.
I believe the end result is not a blog where black people can come together and talk among each other, about our issues and how to over come them but a blog where white people can join to torment,provoke and antagonize black people on a “black blog”.
I disagree with Trojanpam on a lot of things but she is more of a militant, which i believe is needed in the black community, being the racial climate we are currently in at the moment in America, than say abagond, which i see as a pacifist.
I also see a difference between abagond and TrojanPam on how they write and how they use their platform to reach their audiences, i respect both in their own ways.
Yavenay, like myself, have the vision that needs to be the focus of black people, not trying to convince white people to accept us or like us, which they will never do to any, significant degree.
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@ solesearch
“How do we balance integration and segregation to create independent and successful black communities within America”
we, take what we learn and apply it to our communities, that means don’t run and give ur skills to whites. It’s fine to be educated, just use that education for the community. And I see everybody else balances it they work and send that money home and they help each other get a business started when they come. Since this is our home the best thing to do is save that money ,buy land ,and help each other start businesses and support the ones we do have.
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This reminds me of Arte’s documentary on Gunter Wallraff’s attempt to make himself look black in order to demonstrate the difficulties Africans face trying to get jobs and housing in Germany. I was very surprised by how he was treated…when he tried to get an apartment, the landlady specifically said that she would not give it to him b/c he was too dark…
Here’s the link to the full documentary…sorry it’s in German, but there’s a version with English subtitles out there…
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@Sondis
I feel all of that. And I totally & utterly agree.
I am a young guy (mid-twenties) new to racial politics. Just getting my feet wet.
I debate with the @xPraetorious of the world for my own satisfaction. I know he is not going to change his worldview because racism is about maintaining power.
And Trayvon Martin pretty much traumatized me. And if we say stagnant, Jim Crow 2.0 is going to be the norm in America again. It is already here.
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Adonis:
Are you white or black?
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@Sondis
Negro. And an azzhole professionale
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rofl sondis is Adonis ur twin ur names are almost alike. Adonis are u younger than sondis and do u look half as handsome or more? lol ……… a friend of mine wants to know..
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@ resw77
Man I don’t speak german I have no idea what they are saying, but I can read body language, its all the same. I see the whites not wanting to make eye contact with the man, and how the woman did not let him hold the watch but allowed the white man to. I can tell that guy that is posing as a black man is white I see some of the makeup coming off. It’s just crazy to me that whites are so caught up in racism that they can’t tell when someone isn’t even black. I could tell he wasn’t black by the way he walks and how he was trying to sit close to that white couple.
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@Mstoogoodforyall
Shoot me an e-mail
Oldschoolswagger@gmail.com
Good day
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Earlier this spring, racist, homophobic and anti-semitic graffiti appeared at Oberlin College. There were even reports that a klansman in full hood and robe had been seen walking around the campus. LOL
The university, students and media widely denounced the racial hatred! When they finally unmasked the white racist they discovered he was actually an anti-white racist aka “anti-racist” who had done it.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/08/22/meet-the-privileged-obama-supporting-white-kids-who-perpetrated-cruel-oberlin-race-hoax/
Earlier this year there was a lesbian in California who paid a guy on Craig’s list to beat her up and fck her so that she could claim she was attacked at a women’s conference.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22904832/prosecutor-woman-uc-santa-cruz-rape-hoax-solicited
I doubt the guy in this story was setting out to disprove his black friends. He was perpetrating another “hoax” like the students at Oberlin and UCSC,
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I’ve been reading this blog for awhile now and I completely agree with Sondis, Adonis and Yavenay
Abagond writes some of the best blogs on the subject of race next to Race Files and I love reading the comments section but I almost always skip them whenever I see people going back and forth with those pro-White trolls who aren’t even worth mentioning by name.
It’s exhausting and repetitive. No one learns anything, everyone is arguing because of ego. Why do they even bother commenting on a blog full of people with dissenting opinions? Attention. That’s why and some of y’all play right into it every. time.
Anyways, I would love more discussions on Blacks developing economic and social independence from our White counterparts. So sick of Whites oppressing and marginalizing African Americans and then profiting off of the very culture created due to that marginalization.
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[…] Joshua Solomon (c. 1974- ) was a White American university student who made himself look black in 1994 to see what it would be like. He was going to do it for about four months and visit different parts of the country. He only lasted a week. […]
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Da Jokah,
Are you serious? That’s absurdly poor resasoning. What you “doubt” and are trying to deflect from with the ridiculously unrelated stories is irrelevant. Mr. Solomon explained quite clearly why he did what he did. Whether you “believe” part of his rational, which you sort of misstate, is a side issue. In any event, he did not perpetrate a hoax. He followed in the footsteps of others and conducted a valid social experiment
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@Ks
@MsTooGoodForYall
The funny thing is, was there a white person who two who said, “stop playin’, I see you Joshua”
They went right into discrimination mode.
I made a point to @Xpraetorious how in any other conversation, with your intelligence, we can have meaningful progress outside of race.
Sports, pretty women, & RACISM makes the smartest of white men stupid.
Which goes back to what @Sondis @yavenay was getting into.
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@ Adonis,
“The funny thing is, was there a white person who two who said, “stop playin’, I see you Joshua”
They went right into discrimination mode.”
Even the white bum who JS went out of his way to help!
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mstoogood4yall,
“we, take what we learn and apply it to our communities, that means don’t run and give ur skills to whites. It’s fine to be educated, just use that education for the community. And I see everybody else balances it they work and send that money home and they help each other get a business started when they come. Since this is our home the best thing to do is save that money ,buy land ,and help each other start businesses and support the ones we do have.”
Everybody else does that but that everybody else is typically immigrants. They have a culture of starting businesses. Americans for the most part don’t, especially African Americans. We’re conditioned to get a “good job with benefits”. So how do we create a culture of entrepreneurship?
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Missy
Anyways, I would love more discussions on Blacks developing economic and social independence from our White counterparts.”
During Jim Crow, blacks had their own business community because businesses were segregated. When Jim Crow ended, blacks started shopping at white businesses and black businesses went bankrupt. Now you lament the lack of black economic independence that Jim Crow provided.
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ks
‘Mr. Solomon explained quite clearly why he did what he did. “
Bullshlt. No one risks liver damage by taking drugs to change their skin color “just to see” for himself. The guy had an agenda.
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Let us go with that @Da Jokah.
What nefarious agenda do you think he was trying to push through?
I know this is hard for you to believe, but there are white males among your ranks who are crazy enough to risk their lifes FOR LESS, just for a thrill.
The first guy I think of is Jake Brown, the dude at X-Games who had that nasty injury.
Then I think about the white boys who go to different countries to do some sort of hang-gliding, which have high death rates, but still need those thrills.
What Joshua Solomon did, was not totally insane by “white boy” standards.
I mean no malice (the way racist white do) when I say white boy, we are just highlight about your taste for adventure, that is not as advertised among other races of men.
But if you think there is something more to it @Da Jokah. I am all ears for a good theory.
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Da Jokah,
“Bullshlt. No one risks liver damage by taking drugs to change their skin color “just to see” for himself. The guy had an agenda.”
Bullshlt what? The guy clearly explained his agenda. That you don’t believe him and want to whine about it is your problem. Would you have preferred he used shoe polish? Would that make his agenda more believeable? lol.
Anyway, your previous stories are irrelevant and my point stands that he conducted a valid social experiment doen by others before.
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rofl. ok so he risked liver damage for this experiment, so what, check ur medicine cabinet most stuff in there can cause liver damage. And whites have been risking skin cancer to tan. so now that he risks his health for this experiment its an issue and omg what about his liver.
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@ solesearch
“So how do we create a culture of entrepreneurship?”—That is a good question
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@ mstoogood4yall
Doesn’t Tylenol cause liver damage? ROFL
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@ solesearch
“Everybody else does that but that everybody else is typically immigrants. They have a culture of starting businesses. Americans for the most part don’t, especially African Americans. We’re conditioned to get a “good job with benefits”. So how do we create a culture of entrepreneurship?”
i guess start teaching and telling the youth to start businesses, but we gotta give them the tools to do that and that i don’t know how. I think learning trades is a great way to go, and then ppl are able to start their own small business. I see some ppl start cutting grass and then they have their own business of lawn care.or plumbing or computers they start off working for a company but give their personal number to customers and get a clientele and work off hours and eventually start their own business.
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Yes sharina rofl and ibuprofen and other pain relievers.
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Now to be honest I am not sure I buy his reasoning. I do feel like it is more to it that what he is just saying.
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@ mstoogood4yall
I don’t think the issue is businesses alone. We have got to get blacks to realize they need to start investing in the black businesses and community. The individual on Trojan Pam had a great idea for getting started into doing this process.
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yes that is right too, to do that we gotta work on building trust as we have been conditioned to not trust each other so some won’t support black businesses. what post was that comment on Trojan pams.
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i;m getting off topic i’ll continue in open thread sharina.
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@mstoogood4yall
” I can tell that guy that is posing as a black man is white I see some of the makeup coming off. It’s just crazy to me that whites are so caught up in racism that they can’t tell when someone isn’t even black.”
Yeah, it’s crazy…Xenophobia at its finest. I hope you can find the version with English subtitles.
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Some white people would try to “act” or dress black, but to them, blackness is a style. Those of the more liberal variety want all the ‘coolness’ of being black (as seen on MTV’s Video Music Awards as illuminated by a certain white female artist), BUT they don’t want the adversities that come with being black in America like being seen as a deviant first and a human being second.
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@Da Jokah
“During Jim Crow, blacks had their own business community because businesses were segregated. When Jim Crow ended, blacks started shopping at white businesses and black businesses went bankrupt.”
I agree. But there are other reasons black business ownership rates are low, most notably difficulty getting business loans. This is an aspect that is oft overlooked. There are ample studies that prove it has been true, such as: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~blnchflr/papers/restat.pdf
There are even instances where municipalities provide grants to small businesses, but specifically barred giving them to barbershops and hair salons, which are mainly include established black-owned businesses in that area: http://www.afro.com/sections/news/washington/story.htm?storyid=72671
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@ Resw77
Thank you for providing that. I was not aware.
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MsGood writes:
“I see some of the makeup coming off. It’s just crazy to me that whites are so caught up in racism that they can’t tell when someone isn’t even black. I could tell he wasn’t black by the way he walks and how he was trying to sit close to that white couple.”
—-
I watched a few minutes of the video provided by resw77, and I agree with your assessment, as I find it simply amazing that anyone could look at that German in a fluffy WIG and bad makeup without taking notice of his facial features, body structure, carriage / gait and voice, and still end up believing that he is an African. Maybe some just thought he was a German nut parading around as an African.
Also, despite having darkened his skin, Joshua Solomon, in the photo on the right, still doesn’t look convincingly Black. He actually looks like a bald South Asian / Indian, or even a dark-skinned Southwest Asian (i.e. an “Arab”).
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I could have written this story 40 years ago. As a white child in the 70’s my mom married a black man in 1973 and for 6 years we were the target of racism from white men and women.
Whenever my mother took my brother and I to the store without my step father we never were stared at, never yelled at from cars driving by, etc..However when my step father joined us and we were in the white side of town, we got the silent treatment at the checkout line, no box boy would ask if we needed help out, they wouldn’t even look at my mom or my step father. Of course then there was the walk across the parking lot where people did actually look at us, either they would give us the you should be ashamed stare with a head shake, this was mostly done by the women. The men were much more abrupt and gave my step father the “How dare you fall in love with one of our women.”
When we would go to Orange County to visit my Grandmother we would always go to lunch at a local coffee shop/restaurant and we would be served right away. If my step father went with us they would skip us and seat everyone else except for us, even people who came in after us. The second time this happened my grandmother, who weighed about 300 pounds was with us, she laid into the very tall, very white German owner right in front of other customers. He said he was not aware that it was going on and paid for our lunch. My grandmother did not believe my mom when she told her it happened the first time and when she witnessed it herself it broke her bubble that white people in 1973 Fountain Valley, CA actually acted like that. You see when you are white and you live in a mostly white world you just don’t realize some of the things that are going on right in front of your eyes until you are forced to see it or be a part of it.
And of course we all know about racial profiling, well I again experienced it first hand and don’t need any study, experiment or anything else to convince me because it is 100% fact! Of the 50 times we drove from Los Angeles to Orange County in 6 years never once was my mother pulled over by the highway patrol or any other law enforcement agency. Of the approximately 7 or 8 times my step father joined us and drove we were pulled over 4 or 5 time, more than half. Out of all those times of being pulled over only one ticket was written, driving 60 mph in a 55 mph….
None of these events meant a lot to me until i got older and joined the work force. I worked in a warehouse in Anaheim and we had one black employee out of 120. It was a common joke with the manager and many of the white guys that Larry was the one token black guy, they had to hire him to meet their quota otherwise it would be a 100% white work force, like everything else in this country since inception. Of course they never spoke like this around Larry or any of the women from the office, they would wait until they were in his office alone or on Friday night and it was a small crew. At first it didn’t dawn on me how many white men were racist because it was just the operations manager and a few guys from the warehouse but when i went through my first inventory and we were in the parking lot with 3 other managers and the sales force and everyone was white and male, that’s when i became extremely disillusioned with my race. These guys knew so many black jokes and everyone was laughing so hard and the managers were the worst…I thought to myself these guys are in charge of hiring and firing people, they get to say who works here and who doesn’t. that’s when i started to realize that if a qualified black man comes in looking for a job and he is up against an unqualified white man, these managers will choose the white guy if only because they feel more comfortable around white people than they do black people. I lost so much faith in my race working for so many racist white guys..
I could go on and on telling you my experiences where white men and women have made so many racist remarks when they feel it is okay to say such things based on who is in the room and who is not but I really don’t feel a need to continue…These are all true accounts of my life and they are indisputable, they are factual…and even though things are better now than they were in the 70’s equality for African Americans in this country is still far away and all Americans should do whatever we can to help make things better for everyone…Believe this, improving equality for all races and genders and improving quality of life for everyone will only make this country better for ALL OF US and to leave it as it is will only make life worse for ALL OF US…
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Why do we blacks continue to try an appeal to an emotional side that doesn’t exist? Stop looking for respect. They thrive on money and power. You stop the money from flowing and you take back your power.
This may sound unsettling to some people, but I believe it’s because we still have traces of the slave mind, even those of us who are more liberal. We place white people on a pedestal as they want us to since day-one, even the ones who see us as inhuman, while secretly knowing that they are really a-holes. And many of those whites are in high positions. So, we can not say or do anything that gets them upset for fear of losing our jobs.
We quietly and secretly know that whites have traded in their humanity for money and power, but those who work or have worked for whites will do what they can to appease them, not getting on their bad side. Still, we are not above being pushed over the edge. Remember Omar Thornton?
Joshua Solomon has been pushed over the edge after a short time of appearing black. He broke down in tears after two days. Still, has he truly learned anything from this experience? If so, what, and is it to his own improvement?
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@ Brothawolf
“his may sound unsettling to some people, but I believe it’s because we still have traces of the slave mind, even those of us who are more liberal.”—This is very true.
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sharina said:
For many (most?) white people the colour is the key thing. The most easily recognisable thing about so many of the people whites enslaved/conquered/exploited and therefore feel superior to, or fear loss of status to, is the darkness of their skins. White British racists will usually despise black people and south Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi etc). If they encountered any indigenous Australian people I expect they would treat them with similar prejudice. I would guess that it’s not much different in the US.
The shape of facial features, hair texture etc is probably far, far less important when it comes to separating “them” from “us”.
Yavenay said:
I agree. The political radical in me would also rant about dismantling global capitalism – the worldwide economic status quo that is owned by rich whites – but that would go way off topic and you’d write me off as crazy like my friends do.
–
It’s odd. Reading Solomon’s account my overwhelming feeling is one of “meh”. The whole thing feels bogus and contrived – which clearly it was, by definition – but it lacks substance and conviction. He knew at the outset that he could rewind and get out of it. To get authentic truth INCLUDING the true feelings of a person who cannot simply wait for the pills to wear off, all he had to do was talk to the black “friends” whose word wasn’t good enough for him.
Still, perhaps the exercise woke up a few white people who, like Solomon, couldn’t believe things were as bad as black people said. If they hear it from a white guy then it just might be true. The more open-minded ones might even believe it from Oprah.
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@ Buddhuu
Thank you for the insight.
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resw77
@Da Jokah
“During Jim Crow, blacks had their own business community because businesses were segregated. When Jim Crow ended, blacks started shopping at white businesses and black businesses went bankrupt.”
I agree. But there are other reasons black business ownership rates are low, most notably difficulty getting business loans. This is an aspect that is oft overlooked. There are ample studies that prove it has been true, such as: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~blnchflr/papers/restat.pdf
There are even instances where municipalities provide grants to small businesses, but specifically barred giving them to barbershops and hair salons, which are mainly include established black-owned businesses in that area: http://www.afro.com/sections/news/washington/story.htm?storyid=72671”
This is what I’ve always said about black people, not having their own businesses, institutional racism, within the financial institution is the reason, along with many other factors, why black people can’t start a business.
I’m so tired of people assuming that black people don’t want to be independent of white people and as if black people don’t try to start businesses, which is completely false. We do but always get denied loans via racial discrimination.
We as black people are tired of working in a hostile working environment, always in fear of losing our jobs at any time for trivial reasons.
immigrants from other countries are more likely to get a loan to open a business than a black person, born in America.
This is by design and not a coincidence, that black people are not able to start a business.
I always see other minorities business in the black community, making money off blacks, including Latinos but lack respect for the same people that spend money at those establishments.
Whites need black people to be dependent on them and even other minorities, think about every single city in the unities states, where black people live.
There is always a Chinese restaurant, Chinese laundry mat, Korean hair store for black women to buy their hair weeves, 7 eleven shops where people from india own those shops in the black community.
Car repair shops are owned by Latinos, whites and other immigrants, so blacks have no choice but get fleeced by every single ethnic group and accept the disrespect that we receive as a result.
Latinos own all the corner stores that blacks shop at, just around the corner where they live. I can go on and on about every other race that benefit from black people, staying dependent on every other ethnicity, except black people, themselves.
I’m glad you pointed this out as i have, plenty of times on this blog, resw77.
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I read a book in high school called, “Black Like Me”. Howard Griffin, it is a true story. This reminds me of that. The Howard Griffin incident took place in 1963. All these chuckleheads that come on this blog, going on about racism is not that bad today, Maybe they need to do this experiment. Great post.
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@mary burrell
I don’t know. Karma might just bite them in the butt.
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@Fiamma
“Maybe some just thought he was a German nut parading around as an African.”
One would think, right? But some of the people said they were surprised that he spoke such good German.
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I also read the Griffin book in high school. It was really mind-blowing. The fact that this is more recent makes it even more depressing.
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Melvin Van Peebles directed a very cool old school film called the Watermelon Man. It would go with this thread. I love that movie.
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I have East Asian friends and many of them are very dark and they get mistaken for being black all the time.
I don’t know if Solomon could have done the whole way through. He unlike Griffin thought racism to that level was b.s.
Where as many of us have had our whole lives to acclimate to the hostile climate he just in. He got submerge and had no support network at all.
For those of you who think well he doesn’t look black. I really doubt that racist take very deep look at black people at all. They may obsession but a real look. I also think that black people a variety of looks because of interracial mixing that has happened since even the founding of the occupation of this land.
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sondis
“But there are other reasons black business ownership rates are low, most notably difficulty getting business loans.”
Black businesses could get loans during Jim Crow but not now? That doesn’t seem very likely. The difference probably has more to do with customers than loans. When businesses were segregated black customers had to shop at black businesses. Not that blacks don’t have more trouble getting loans. I haven’t looked into it but I wouldn’t doubt it. 80 year old men with kidney failure probably have more trouble getting life insurance, too. The reason is pretty simple — they’re a bad risk. If you don’t like it then blame black business owners who file bankruptcy at higher rates.
I did, however, read an interesting story a few years ago on this very topic. Apparently, white owned banks were giving loans to blacks at better rates than black owned banks. The reason was that even though blacks were more risky the white banks would give them loans at better rates anyway because they didn’t want to be investigated. The black owned banks didn’t have to worry about it so they’d deny more black loans.
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@ Sondis: All of what you said is true.
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That last comment should have been to resw77 not sondis. People need to do a better job quoting to prevent confusion.
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resw77 writes:
“[S]ome of the people said they were surprised that he spoke such good German.”
—-
Really?! That is a bit sad, actually….
Eddie Murphy did a skit on Saturday Night Live years ago in which he appeared as a blond-haired, briefcase-carrying white businessman while placed in commonplace situations (such as riding on a public bus) with actual whites — and all while affecting a stereotypical speech pattern and stereotypical mannerisms of a middle-class white male.
Though some people doubtlessly found the skits offensive, I remember laughing uproariously the first time I saw one. Eddie did not, of course, look like a white person, but the idea that the only things needed to make him appear white is pink makeup and a blond wig was the funniest -and the most bizarre – aspect of the skit.
I myself have never given a moment’s consideration to the idea that a phenotypical Black male could trick me into believing he’s white simply by donning a straight-haired wig and pale makeup…but you never know!
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There is always exceptions to every rule and there will always be an excuse for every wrong from people who perpetuate denial…it’s not just a river in Egypt.
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@ resw77: Agree with what you said.
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@ Fiamma
I am actually going to go find that skit.
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@Fiamma: I do remember that Saturday night live skit.
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@KOT
I think you hit it – persons treated as black have had a lifetime of psychological concessions and adjustments to be able to handle it. They also have a social support network which can help them adjust to being black.
Since Solomon had so many black friends, he should have considered engaging some of his black friends to help him last for four months. Maybe he should have practiced being black first in Washington, DC and suburban MD before heading off to Georgia.
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I agree about the support network too. It makes a big difference. In his case, whites were his support network – and they were ostracizing him! So in a sense it was harder for him than it would be for a black person. What he experienced was common to black people – shopping while black, and so on – but he was facing it all at once and pretty much all alone.
Also I think his age (20) played a part: it not only made him seem more threatening as a black man in the eyes of whites, but it meant he did not have the maturity to see his project through to the end. Instead he cried and ran back home.
To do it properly you need to go for at least a year, but that is probably medically dangerous. And yes, for him to make it through, he would need the help of his black friends.
But the whole thing is completely unnecessary to begin with since there are 40 million black people who can tell you what it is like. They have even written books about it. There is no mystery to it at all. It is not some huge secret. It was part of Solomon’s white racism that he did not see that (though later he did).
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Thank you! I’ve been trying that for a while on this set! No one listens, they’re still brainwashed even though they talk about exposing racism
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Sharina,
I tried to find the video of one of these skits on YouTube. The only thing I found was a 4 second clip with Eddie as a white man with dark hair and a moustache. I don’t believe it’s the same character as the one I described in my previous comment, but my memory might be faulty (since my memory is telling me the character had golden hair).
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Sondis,
“This is what I’ve always said about black people, not having their own businesses, institutional racism, within the financial institution is the reason, along with many other factors, why black people can’t start a business.
I’m so tired of people assuming that black people don’t want to be independent of white people and as if black people don’t try to start businesses, which is completely false. We do but always get denied loans via racial discrimination.”
What about black banks?
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Most black people have a lifetime of coaching and psychological readjustment to being black in America. They don’t experience for the first time at age 20.
Yeah, I was imagining that it would be more like a black person who had lived in a bubble of people who had only seen him as white his entire life, then throw him into current American society. Even Dave Myers, who had grown up with only a white support network, did experience many episodes of being black while he was growing up.
So, Joshua Solomon’s experience was not really that realistic.
It is not a secret or mystery, but even liberal minded Solomon (you have to be a bit bold and liberal to pull off a stunt like his) had dismissed what all his black friends had been telling him for years. He never “got it”, but It took him only 4 days to “get it” once he tried it.
Let’s assume we have 200 million white people in the USA and that 10% “get it” to some extent. 180 million have never read those books or dismiss them as “bunk”. At least Solomon will now maybe listen to his black friends more and acknowledge that they are not always making things up.
But he is only one person. There is another couple hundred million out there. What do you do about them?
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It seems that others are also searching on YouTube for Eddie Murphy’s White man on bus” SNL skit, as that particular phrase came up on its own during my search. No luck finding it though.
Below is the only clip I could locate of Eddie as a white man:
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To Fiamma:
No luck finding it though. Below is the only clip I could locate of Eddie as a white man
I believe it was called “White like me” Here’s the entire sketch:
http://www.snotr.com/video/422/Eddie_Murphy_goes_undercover
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“resw77
@Fiamma
“Maybe some just thought he was a German nut parading around as an African.”
One would think, right? But some of the people said they were surprised that he spoke such good German.”
Linda says,
With that hair, he could pass as Eritrean or Ethiopian (he did present himself as Somali) but either way, I don’t think the Germans were paying attention to his features, they only saw the dark skin…for them, that’s enough.
As I’ve mentioned before, I lived in Germany, and to them, anyone with “tint” to their skin tone (like Arabs) are “dark” and get the same treatment.
despite all that, I liked the Germans because when it comes to racial issues, I felt that they were more upfront with how they feel, more Genuine… none of the fake white American smile in your face, while stabbing you behind your back.
the Germans would Always act surprised when a foreigner spoke German, but what their nosy behinds really wanted to know, was “are you staying here or going back home to your country?”
Even when I would tell them I spoke Deutsch, they would still try to speak to me in English (a German friend told me that they were just trying to practice their English) sometimes that was true but it was not always the case.
Being the Xenophobes that they are, I always felt that they had a hard time seeing dark people as “real” Germans and subconsciously treated people as “foreign visitors” and sometimes behaved in a condescending manner.
I have a Tongan girlfriend whose been there for 25 years and she still gets the “oh, you speak German so well but how did you learn it? where did you study, how long have you been here, and when are you going home?”
she and her half-German children are “perpetual foreigners”
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@ Fiamma
Your memory is not faulty because I remember that skit. LOL. Those were the good ole days of comedy.
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Linda
“As I’ve mentioned before, I lived in Germany, and to them, anyone with “tint” to their skin tone (like Arabs) are “dark” and get the same treatment.”
I can relate. I studied in Germany in the 80’s and what you said make me recall a few memories.
The German word “Schwarz”, used as a noun and to identify a person, means the same as “Black” and was/is applied primarily for people of African descent, but I remember that sometimes I got the impression that they used it to designate people with olive skin or dark hair, what seemed strange to me.
Linda
“despite all that, I liked the Germans because when it comes to racial issues, I felt that they were more upfront with how they feel, more Genuine… none of the fake white American smile in your face, while stabbing you behind your back.”
I’m not so sure about this. White Americans were, I believe, more racist in the times of Jim Crow and in the first half of the 20th century. Their racist attitudes were more open. Do you not believe that the mere fact that they must dissimulate their racism nowadays is a sign that things have improved? Racist thoughts now are, at least, repressed and hopefully this can lead to a future situation were they (the racist thoughts in the minds of people) disappear altogether.
A few years ago I worked with a Malawian guy who rate favorably (White) Americans in comparison to Boers (part of White South African folk). The guy studied in the USA and later worked for the United Nations there. He said that if you – as a Black person – were good in your profession or skills, Americans would appreciate it and even become your friends, but Boers would react resentfully. Boers racial attitudes were more open in a recent past.
Linda
“I have a Tongan girlfriend whose been there for 25 years and she still gets the “oh, you speak German so well but how did you learn it? where did you study, how long have you been here, and when are you going home?”
she and her half-German children are “perpetual foreigners””
I recall a situation, in Germany, when one Saturday I was in a bar, used mainly by students, and I began a conversation with a guy. We spent much of the time speaking about the local girls, in a typical “male conversation”. After, maybe 30 minutes I observed to the guy, “Wow, I notice that you speak a very good German! You should have topped your class in the subject of German language (for foreigners)”. The guy looked at me and with a laugh retorted “But I’ve been born here, this is why I speak so”.
I was taken aback with a mix of confusion and bewilderment. That guy, who I thought was a foreigner as myself, was actually German. Maybe because he appeared to be mixed (Mischlinge) and could easily pass for an African and maybe because during the conversation he used the term “we” to designate we both and by extension all foreign students, and the term “they” to refer to the local girls, maybe because all of that, I assumed he was a foreigner like me. I was partially shocked also because those local girls were his sisters, so to speak, and I’d said things during the conversation that seemed now not adequate given the fact he was a local too.
Every time I remember that episode it strikes me that that guy seemed not to see himself as belonging to the place and seemed to search more of friendship with foreigners than locals. But maybe I’m wrong and I hope so…
Just a few thoughts!
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I am posting this for Bengali_guy:
Hi, I’ve been reading this blog for a few years and enjoy it and know that everything Abagond painstakingly and patiently tries to point out about the horrible experiences that black (and other non-whites) people have to go through is totally true.
I myself am a “British” person of Bangladeshi origin and have experienced racism – mainly in the work place in terms of unfair treatment and “microaggressions”, as well as general microagressions in everyday life – in the UK. I also spent a little bit of time in the middle east where I learnt a lot that i.e. racism is rampant and in some ways the UK and US are better as they are more developed societies where this problem is recognized and there are outlets and where – officially/overtly – racism is “frowned” upon.
I will hopefully start to post here a bit more, just to let Abagond know I am posting from a place where I will move from in a few days so my IP adress will change!
On topic: This is a great post. However this inability to understand the discrimination/unfairness that people of non-“mainstream” backgrounds face is not just exclusive to whites alone.
I am a male, but many/most males do not understand how difficult it is to be a woman, and what a male-centric world that we live in.
I for instance am short and also of slight build thus “small” and this too leads to me getting treated not so well as others and being a victim of white-collar subtle bullying or micro-aggression. Many think that I am paranoid when I mention this, in the same way some whites think you are paranoid if you mention the differences a non-white person faces in their treatment.
I think that somehow in the education system (in England we have a lesson to talk about social/personal issues which varies in its title depending on the school e.g. PSE [personal social education], SE [Social Education]) this experience needs to be taught about more widely or even to be practised e.g. for one day or a few days white students need to browned/tanned down with whatever appropriate material and then walk around and see the difference in the way they are treated. However having said that, I know many coloured non-black people here in England who feel no acute racism in the streets unless it be issues to do with unfair treatment in the workplace e.g. subtle preference for non-whites, unfair favouritism for non-whites e.g.
Black people however from what I know are on a fundamental level disliked by many whites simply for being darker (the darker you are the worse it is, which means that a lighter-skinned South Asian will have it easier than a darker south Asian or a Latino will have it easier than a black person) and would probably face microagressions even on the street or outside.
A simple week as a black/brown person for these students would not be sufficient but would give a slight glimpse in to the reality – as opposed to “imagine paranoia – of non-white people.
Alternatively or in addition someone could do it for a couple of weeks/months for a television programme, e.g. a famous person and then make a film about it and explain to others the reality of what it is .
Having said that however, I feel most people, regardless of colour or origin, are ignorant and selfish and would still never fully understand how other people of different backgrounds are impacted by discrimination unless it happens to them.
Being black unfortunately brings discrimination and so does being non-white and in virtually all societies including Islamic ones (I am a practising Muslim) e.g. Arab, South Asian etc the darker your skin colour the worse it is for you e.g. even in China the northern Chinese “Han” (a problematic term since the “Han” are not homogenous but an amalgamation of different groups) look down on the darker, shorter southern Chinese. So too however do other things, though not in the same degree e.g. being a woman, being “ugly” (a “sexy” young woman will have “beauty privilege” that an “ugly” woman won’t), being weak/small etc.
Despite this and despite the horrible racism that African-American people have to endure in the USA, the United States is a a far more civilized society than other places and many commentators here talk about finding somewhere else to live. There may be places out there, but racism is not exclusive to the USA and unlike other countries:
1: It is officially frowned upon thus most whites pay lipservice to anti-racism and will conceal racism or strongly deny having it. (In European countries outside north-west Europe, middle east, south America i.e. most of the world that is not the case).
2. There is an open acceptance that racism is a reality and policies are made accordingly, racism is not even discussed in some of these other societies which do not have the culture of self-criticism that the US and UK do.
3. There are successful black people including politicians e.g the very head of state, entertainment, sports whereas in some of these other societies e.g. Brazil, Turkey (1 million plus Turks of African origin), Arab world, Pakistan they simply do not exist in the public conscience or as in Brazil are severely under-represented.
Sorry for my long rant and have a nice day everyone!”
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Buddhuu, jefe, KOT, abagond,
I found this interview with him online:
http://prince.org/msg/105/199023
In it he speaks to what you guys are talking about:
Solomons: Right, you see, I was neither black nor white at this time, because, you know, on the inside, basically, this white person is making decisions that this black, -pause- person was seen to be bearing the brunt of the burden. Even though people treated me like a black person I still thought and acted, you know, the way I had for twenty years of my life. So I like, I said what was disturbing was I knew how things should have been, I knew the way I would have been treated, the type of respect that I would have had just walking into a room or into a store into a hotel or restaurant and I never once got that. That’s what was disturbing, that’s what I talk about the difference in Robert, you know, he doesn’t know that he’s not supposed to receive it, he knows that things are bad and I think he has, I don’t want to say a vague understanding, but, he knows quite well how awful it gets, but, I think for Robert to get really know, and what would probably blow his mind, I mean light him up, you know, turn white for a while and see, just how very different it is for white people.
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@Abagond… “He only lasted a week”
There also could be a possibility that he looked strange. Have you seen “white girls”? They looked weird as hell, and I don’t think they would have lasted long either. Do you remember when Rob Dyrdek dressed as “Big Bob”?.. people looked at him as if he had five heads. I think you need to find the right person for the experiment, because some people it is an obvious deception and people can be weirded out by that.
Now maybe if you asked C. Thomas Howell from “Soul Man” how he was treated I would understand. You also have to be comfortable in your own skin. Maybe this man wasn’t.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2zMrjBLwn8)
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@ Fiamma
I can’t find the one you are referring too but I could have swore I have seen it before. 😦
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Another interesting thing from the interview that speaks to what we’ve been talking about in the comments:
BR: Also Mr. Solomons, Mr Fuller has one bottom line suggestion that he had suggested for black people, in fact, it was for all non-white people, and that was; to ask for white people to produce justice and eliminate racism or to eliminate all the non-white people. That is one solution obviously for the problem of racism; what do you feel about that suggestion?
Solomons: Do you mean divide, I mean, divide the races, is that what you’re asking?
BR: No, to either eliminate racism, produce justice, or. . . to eliminate all the non-white people in terms of removing them from living bodies on earth, basically, kill all the non-white people.
Solomons: Yeah, as far as, I do think that if you’re denied justice, if people don’t feel that they can have justice, you’re not gonna have peace. And as far as eliminating racism, I don’t want to say its hopeless, but, I’m not gonna see it in my lifetime. As far as killing all the white people.
Bilal: No, no, killing all the non-white people, or, uh…
Solomons: Oh, non-white people, I doubt that I’ll see that in my lifetime, but, you can see it happening all over the world. but, yeah, like for a short time before right after I came back, I did, I remember speaking to Cornel West, I talked to him, I said don’t you think that separating whites and blacks is the only solution, and you know, I hate to say that, I never want to ever be associated with, kinda, being an overt racist.
Fuller: Is there any way to do that?
Solomons: Pardon me?
Fuller: In a global village, is there…
Solomons: Oh no, that’s the problem, you’re right, there is no way to do that.
Fuller: That’s a myth, theres no such thing as separation.
Solomons: Sure.
Fuller: People ARE going to interact with each other. So therefore it comes down to the nature of the interaction.
Solomons: Right, no, you’re exactly-, and that’s why, I said, for a short time I did consider that as the only possibility, but, you’re right, it’s irrational, its ridiculous. Secondly, I can’t stand telling anyone they belong here and they belong there.
Fuller: Well, its never worked anyway. There’s no such thing as people being here or being there. All people on this earth interact with each other. Theres no such thing as people being isolation.
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The part I just posted was cut out of the interview in the link I provided but you can read the entire thing here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.thecode.net/interviews/solomons.html
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Dave,
“There also could be a possibility that he looked strange. Have you seen “white girls”? They looked weird as hell, and I don’t think they would have lasted long either. ”
I think most of their looking weird was do to the fact that they are men. Plus, their looking weird was intentional for comedic effect. It wasn’t supposed to convince the audience.
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“munu aka Bantu,
I’m not so sure about this. White Americans were, I believe, more racist in the times of Jim Crow and in the first half of the 20th century. Their racist attitudes were more open. Do you not believe that the mere fact that they must dissimulate their racism nowadays is a sign that things have improved? Racist thoughts now are, at least, repressed and hopefully this can lead to a future situation were they (the racist thoughts in the minds of people) disappear altogether.”
Linda says,
No, for sure those racist attitudes still exist, but repressing or dissimulating these thoughts is what is the main problem… because they still feel the same way, do not think they have a problem, and if someone “denies” that they have a problem, then how do they go about “solving it”, if they believe it doesn’t exist (like drug abusers and alcoholics)
because the US American law now protects black and non-white people from being abused by white people (as was common in Jim Crow times), white Americans believe that they are no longer “complicit” in the problems America faces when it comes to racial issues…they like to say “black people are imagining things” and totally deny their role in the marginalization of black people.
I guess that’s why this guy, Solomon, was “surprised” by the treatment he received during his little experiment.
this delusion and denial by white Americans is the reason I say they are fake — the average white American denies they have prejudiced towards darker people. To me, the Europeans have always been more honest about it — like in the video when the German guys were saying “Germany (Europe) for whites, Africa for blacks” — most Europeans think this and even the nicest person will say it, if asked.
but if you asked a white American if black people should “go back to Africa”, they’ll flip-flop all over the place or be like a deer in the headlights and not want to talk about such a subject — I’ve gotten the impression that white Americans actually believe that America “belongs” to them and that white people represent what “America” is all about — these disassociated feelings towards the reality of history about “who is American” doesn’t give me hope as to racial attitudes improving any time soon.
I guess, opinions on white Americans by us foreigners will differ (like how your acquaintance prefers them over white S. Africans) depending on personal experience.
I grew up in the Caribbean and before I came to the US, the white Americans and other white foreigners I met, were friendly and seemed more open, willing to interact with the local people (and spend their money)… it was surprising for me to go to the US and then see the 180 degree change in behavior and listened to how they talked about black Americans. They would say negative statements in front of me, and when I called them on it, they would say, “oh well, you’re not really black anyway, so we don’t mean you”
I’m used to the white Caribbeans / Latinos, who are more obvious in their feelings because they are a part of the Colourism heirachy and they/everyone are on the same page and are aware of how things go.
I guess I just prefer when people speak about a situation “honestly”, so everyone knows where each person stands — that’s why I feel white Americans are not genuine… they say what is “expected” in public and say how they really feel amongst themselves or to non-whites who they believe won’t mind the things they say about black people.
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“Da Jokah
sondis
“But there are other reasons black business ownership rates are low, most notably difficulty getting business loans.”
Black businesses could get loans during Jim Crow but not now? That doesn’t seem very likely. The difference probably has more to do with customers than loans. When businesses were segregated black customers had to shop at black businesses. Not that blacks don’t have more trouble getting loans. I haven’t looked into it but I wouldn’t doubt it. 80 year old men with kidney failure probably have more trouble getting life insurance, too. The reason is pretty simple — they’re a bad risk. If you don’t like it then blame black business owners who file bankruptcy at higher rates.
I did, however, read an interesting story a few years ago on this very topic. Apparently, white owned banks were giving loans to blacks at better rates than black owned banks. The reason was that even though blacks were more risky the white banks would give them loans at better rates anyway because they didn’t want to be investigated. The black owned banks didn’t have to worry about it so they’d deny more black loans.”
This is just one example of how banks, treat Black home owners. Its not just loans that banks deny blacks, so they can’t open a black owned businesses, its also disproportionate home foreclosures,too.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2013/08/28/exp-erin-pkg-flores-new-orleans-struggling-8-years-after-katrina.cnn
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@ Linda
It would be a shame if I did not applaud what you just said. So *Applause* 🙂
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@Da Jokah
“If you don’t like it then blame black business owners who file bankruptcy at higher rates”
Hopefully you can see that’s a discriminative statement. So, b/c a small small fraction of black business owners have filed bankruptcy, it means that all black business owners should face a difficulty in getting a loan? So let’s apply the same standard to white males. Since most white-collar crimes are committed by white males, then they should be discriminated against in the workplace? Surely you wouldn’t agree with that. Because not all whites commit white-collar crime, just as not all black business owners file bankruptcy.
And if you read the study I linked (http://www.dartmouth.edu/~blnchflr/papers/restat.pdf), you would see that the black business owners surveyed had a prior bankruptcy rate of only 5 to 6 (in the last 7 yrs)%. So should all black business owners be discriminated against because only 5 to 6% had previously filed for bankruptcy?
Donald Trump’s companies filed bankruptcy 4 times, btw…
“That last comment should have been to resw77 not sondis. People need to do a better job quoting to prevent confusion.”
And you should do a better job directing your comments to the right person.
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Yeah, I’ve heard of this guy and his little experiment via Oprah show. No surprise regarding the results. I guess he wanted his 15 mins of fame, too bad he didn’t last, but a week. He would’ve got a movie, book, and a reality show had he stuck with it. I’m sure there will be JS 2.0 coming soon. Since this one took place in the 90s.
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@resw77 …:):):):)
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@ Abagond: Thanks for printing that enlightening and informative post by Bengali guy. He expressed what many black commenters and other people of color have been trying to make certain people understand, racism is alive and still prevalent in this country. Great post.
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@Sondis
I hope you don’t mind if I make a comment about this
In the early days of sharecropping, the landowner often owned a commissary that sold goods (or kept a record of products / goods) to the tenant farmers. Non-sharecroppers did shop at stores, but few stores in the late 1800s – early 1900s were owned by blacks.
Mechanization brought an end to the sharecropping system, followed by the Great Migration that brought blacks North. In the early days when sharecropping was no longer growing, blacks diversified into other occupations (albeit many of them low-paid labour). They started to shop in stores, but stores in black neighborhoods in the South were often operated by non-Anglo immigrants, eg, Chinese, Lebanese, Jewish, etc. When blacks moved up North, it was often Jewish Americans that opened up stores in black neighborhoods. In the late 20th century, many of these stores were now operated by Koreans and Chinese.
Sad to say, but I don’t think black-owned businesses ever made up all or most of the shops that blacks shopped at.
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Just a quick note – It should be Silver Spring, MD –> no ‘s’ 😛
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@ Jefe
Corrected. Thank you.
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@Solesearch,
Thank you for providing the link for that interview. It is a very relevant link to supplement this post.
Some things I found interesting:
– Solomon was not happy that the media focused on his experience in Gainesville, GA, and he didn’t even make it to Forsythe County. He said that he not only experienced the phenomenon in Gainesville, but also in Atlanta and Washington, DC and suburban Maryland.
– White racism is not necessarily due to hate per se, but the inherent sense of white supremacy (I would call it white privilege) that whites learn from an early age and hold throughout their life without a clear understanding of it. Even “well-meaning whites” carry this sense of white privilege.
– He decided that the education system was crap and used to reinforce the white privilege mindset.
– He noticed how the sales clerk treated well-dressed professional looking black men in a fancy store in Rockville, MD. He admitted that he never really paid attention to stuff like that before.
– “whites define racism totally different than blacks”
(That is a major difference between the blacks and whites that frequent this blog)
– likening racism to alcholism, ie, the idea of realizing that one is a racist, and then become a “recovering racist”.
– how whites dating or even marrying non-whites do not absolve them of their racism. Basically, they compromise the relationship by taking the “non-whiteness” out of the relationship and out of their partner.
– “Billy Graham was notoriously anti-semitic, a racist, I mean, but, still, I mean, we consider him and the president counsels with him on numerous occasions. basically, he’s no different than Louis Farrakhan in that sense, or any other man. But, why we fry Louis Farrakhan and not him is not beyond me but, you know, its a double standard.”
– the concept of White Supremacy as a religion
Finally, Solomon is Jewish. It reminds of how it was often Jewish-Americans that sympathized with the Black experience back in the days of Jim Crow. Some even got beaten of killed for it.
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sondis
This is just one example of how banks, treat Black home owners.
You think banks flag blacks in their database for “dirty tricks” or something? Banks get audited so I don’t think that would work. Not that dirty tricks don’t happen. A few years ago I was getting hit with a late fee every month. I started sending in my mortgage payment the SAME day it came in the mail. The bank would get it but wouldn’t post it until after it was due. I started paying an extra $10 postage to send it registered mail and it stopped. There’s no doubt in my mind they were doing it on purpose. Was it racial? Or were they just slime balls?
”
resw77
Hopefully you can see that’s a discriminative statement. So, b/c a small small fraction of black business owners have filed bankruptcy, it means that all black business owners should face a difficulty in getting a loan?
I didn’t say that. I will, however, say that applicants should be approved and charged based on the best analysis of the risks they pose to the lender.
So let’s apply the same standard to white males. Since most white-collar crimes are committed by white males, then they should be discriminated against in the workplace?
More whites commit white collar crime because there are more whites. But blacks still commit white collar crime at a higher rate. If a company is looking to mitigate risks they’d discriminate against those with the highest rate not the highest number.
”
jefe
Sad to say, but I don’t think black-owned businesses ever made up all or most of the shops that blacks shopped at.
That may be true. But the number of black businesses plummeted by almost 2/3 after Jim Crow was overturned. Civil rights was about blacks’ right to give white businesses their money. I wouldn’t be surprised if most white businesses supported integration.
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Lets also not forget that whites commit more white collar crimes because the percentage of whites having white collar jobs to blacks having white collar jobs is greatly disproportionate…
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Should I come up with a catchy nickname…I seem to be the only nerd using my name….
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@ William Bentley
Actually, some people are using their real name. You just have nerdier parents 😉 If you do change, tell me you are doing that or you might seem like a sock puppet.
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Seems like we should have a post about “black dollars” –> where they were used 100 years ago, 50 years ago and today.
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I live in Germany now, and I get these same questions. I watched that youtube video. I heard that same man also dressed as a Turkish man in another video online somewhere. It is always the same… do you study here? how long are you here? when are you going back? I live here, and when I try to practice my German, I am mostly met with English. They are not upfront in my opinion. Many will smile in your face, and pretend. They do not like confrontation. They also have a habit of staring. They are often surprised when you are educated. Just recently, I had a young man who had asked if I wanted to attend college. I explained to him I had finished. He says.. oh no, not high school, I mean after that. I explained again that I had an MBA which means I obtained my masters, and wish not to pursue any more education, at least not in the classroom. They have many assumptions about you when you are brown here.
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“I didn’t say that. I will, however, say that applicants should be approved and charged based on the best analysis of the risks they pose to the lender.”
You did, however, say “If you don’t like it [the discriminative practices] then blame black business owners who file bankruptcy at higher rates.” That’s simply not an excuse for discrimination. Banks should judge on an individual basis, because people are individuals. And so if two business owners are equally qualified then they should have the same opportunity to get the loan. Race should not be a factor.
“More whites commit white collar crime because there are more whites. But blacks still commit white collar crime at a higher rate.”
Actually I said “white males.” And white males commit most white-collar crime in America, and at a disproportionately higher rate (over 60%, even though they make up less than a third of the total U.S. population).
http://udini.proquest.com/view/a-comparison-of-white-collar-pqid:2308433351/
“If a company is looking to mitigate risks they’d discriminate against those with the highest rate not the highest number.”
So, I take it you believe they should discriminate against white males? Unlike you, don’t believe in racial or sex discrimination.
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“blackgirlinberlin,
I live here, and when I try to practice my German, I am mostly met with English. They are not upfront in my opinion. Many will smile in your face, and pretend. They do not like confrontation. They also have a habit of staring. They are often surprised when you are educated.”
Linda says,
LOL, this is very true…they’ll stare directly in your face while riding on the train or tram without batting an eyelash…I also had to get used to their inability to honour personal space… I had a carton of cream practically snatched out my hand by an “oma” in a hurry. (and of course, I am speaking in general because obviously, not everyone does it)
As far as not liking confrontation, very true…sometimes the old people would talk loudly about “too many schwarzes here, if He was still here, then things would be different, etc”… and the younger Germans would act as if they don’t here anything and don’t even turn their heads.
I found that once I engaged them in a casual conversation (at a party or gathering), many people felt free to speak openly — I had many people tell me freely how they felt about the Turks, African refugees, American military, etc.. and they also always asked their sometimes “dumb” question, such as you mentioned, shocked that black/brown foreigners can speak their language and are University educated or have money back home… I chose to see them as smart but ignorant about other people.
the only question they would be reluctant to talk about or be politically correct about, was questions about Jewish people. I do give them credit for knowing Geographically where most countries are (and that Africa is not a country) and having general statistics/information about them.
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What does “Schwarzes” and “Oma” mean? ..and were the older people actually speaking of Hitler?…I always thought Germany had become somewhat diverse. Is it that rare for a German citizen to see a person of color that they stare out of curiosity or are they staring out of some sort of protest?
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Just a few random thoughts…
Linda
“they’ll stare directly in your face while riding on the train or tram without batting an eyelash”
Yes, I remember. But why do they behave like that?… Eyes…blue, green or gray eyes looking at you, at length, as if you were a mere object out of place there… I remember the strange feeling…
A similar phenomenon was already noticed by American writer James Baldwin when he was in Switzerland back in the middle of the 20th century (in “A Stranger in the Village”): (https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/gjay/www/Whiteness/stranger.htm)
As a human being, who actually grew up in a multiracial environment, I refuse adamantly to accept that there is out there a race of humans that is totally different from the rest. Therefore, for me the question is: which social forces press people to behave like that?
Linda
“I grew up in the Caribbean and before I came to the US, the white Americans and other white foreigners I met, were friendly and seemed more open, willing to interact with the local people (and spend their money)… it was surprising for me to go to the US and then see the 180 degree change in behavior and listened to how they talked about black Americans. They would say negative statements in front of me, and when I called them on it, they would say, “oh well, you’re not really black anyway, so we don’t mean you””
I have here a question for you, Linda, or, I should say an invitation to a reflection: what do you think is the true self, the true nature of all those people with all those strange changes of behavior – is their true nature what you saw in display at your Caribbean homeland or what you saw later in the US? Did you get the impression that one of the behaviors were fake? Which one?
I want to link those issues with the question of how White males behave in the “tropics” compared to how they behave in the “cold”, regarding Black females: in the “tropics” not few of them do not hesitate in dating Black girls and women, but… in the “cold” they turn, hum … “cold”! Which behavior shows their true feelings?
Frankly, being a male myself, I deeply suspect that their true feelings are what we see in the “tropics”. In the “cold” they become prisoners of the social environment which curtails some of their “freedoms”!
And if this is true then, maybe we should not, so early, lose faith in humanity!
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@William Bentley, don’t feel bad, I was new to the internet when I came to this blog, a couple years ago. And felt foolish about using my name.
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Thank you Mary…I already feel like the nerdy white guy in the room, I didn’t want my name to be a dead giveaway…but then again the name William Bentley pretty much gives a few of my characteristics away from the very start….I just wish my financials shared a few characteristics which go with the auto maker Bentley name.
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@ William Bentley, I think schwarzes means blacks. I remember Arnold Schwarzenegger, saying his name meant black farmer. I don’t know what an oma is. Hope this helps.
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@ William Bentley, oma means grandmother.
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@William Bentley; Schwarzenegger, is black fort/castle. not farmer.
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rsw77
That’s simply not an excuse for discrimination. Banks should judge on an individual basis, because people are individuals.
Discrimination is your word not mine. Since you’ve used that word it would be discrimination not to assign a member of a group the risk they pose to the lender. Lenders assign EVERYONE some risk based on the behavior of others in their demographic. Why should a white whose never filed bankruptcy have to accept some of the risks for whites have? But they do. So it’s no different for blacks.
How would it be more fair to distribute that risk associated with one demographic to others? You seem to think some of the black risk should be transferred to others. Why? Because blacks are more risky? That seems rather arbitrary. Why not transfer some of the white risk to blacks, instead?
To the extent a lender can disentangle that risk from the group and assign it to the individual they should and they do. But there’s still a small amount of risk that can’t be individualized.
To show you why it’s valid I’ll compare insurance and lending to gambling. They all base decisions on statistical analysis so it’s a good analogy. Statistically, when you’re playing blackjack, hitting 20 is a bad move. You could say, “Why do you have to discriminate against 20? Why can’t you judge each hand individually?” Yeah, well, go to the casino hitting 20’s and see how long you stay in business.
and at a disproportionately higher rate (over 60%, even though they make up less than a third of the total U.S. population
As Mr Bentley pointed out, we’re not looking at the “total U.S. population.” We’re looking at people in a position to commit those crimes. Not every one is in a position to commit all of them. Some crimes can only be committed by upper management. When you look at the percentages for upper management I don’t think you’ll find whites over represented. You might find white males overrepresented. But only because there are more whites working in upper management and women are less likely to commit those crimes. If you broke those numbers down further, you’d still probably find that black men and black women commit more white collar crime than white men and white women, respectively.
So, I take it you believe they should discriminate against white males?
I believe individuals should be considered based on the best analysis of the risks (and benefits) they pose to the organization. If some of that risk can’t be disentangled from their demographic then so be it.
Unlike you, don’t believe in racial or sex discrimination.
Do you believe in affirmative action?
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Thanks Mary…Joshua certainly looked better as a black man than he does a white man…not that this is important but just an observation.
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You may not believe in it but unfortunately it does exist, I have witnessed it my entire life, the advantages of being white is monumental in the labor market….Monumental.
There’s a comforting-to-white-people fiction about racism and racial inequality in the United States today: They’re caused by a small, recalcitrant group who cling to their egregiously inaccurate beliefs in the moral, intellectual and economic superiority of white people.
The reality: racism and racial inequality aren’t just supported by old ideas, unfounded group esteem or intentional efforts to mistreat others, said Nancy DiTomaso, author of the new book, The American Non-Dilemma: Racial Inequality Without Racism. They’re also based on privilege, she said — how it is shared, how opportunities are hoarded and how most white Americans think their career and economic advantages have been entirely earned, not passed down or parceled out.
The way that whites, often unconsciously, hoard and distribute advantage inside their almost all white networks of family and friends is one of the driving reasons that in February just 6.8 percent of white workers remained unemployed while 13.8 percent of black workers and 9.6 percent of Hispanic workers were unable to find jobs, DiTomaso said.
This week, the professor of organization management at Rutgers University and her ideas have captured the attention of the business press. There was a blog about her book in The Wall Street Journal and a story in Bloomberg Businessweek. DiTomaso, who is white, has gathered evidence that racism and inequality actively shape the labor market and make it far harder for black workers to find jobs.
“Across all three states where I did my research, I heard over and over again [white] people admitting that they don’t interact very often with nonwhites, not at work, not at home or otherwise,” said DiTomaso about the 246 interviews with working-class and middle-class whites she did over the course of about a decade in Tennessee, Ohio and New Jersey. Her research included detailed job histories and information about the way her study participants obtained jobs over the course of their careers.
“That was true for just about everybody unless they were still in college,” DiTomaso continued. “Others would allude to some college friend or experience. But since then, they had not had much contact with blacks. So how would they pass opportunities and information across race lines?”
DiTomaso concludes, based on her research, that most white Americans engage, at least a few times per year, in the activities that foster inequality. While they may not deliberately discriminate against black and other non-white job seekers, they take actions that make it more likely that white people will be employed — without thinking that what they’re doing amounts to discrimination.
“The vast majority assumed everyone has the same opportunities, and they just somehow tried harder, were smarter,” DiTomaso said of those she interviewed. “Not seeing how whites help other whites as the primary way that inequality gets reproduced today is very helpful. It’s easy on the mind.”
So white Americans tell a neighbor’s son about a job, hire a friend’s daughter, carry the resume of a friend (or, for that matter, a friend’s boyfriend’s sister) into the boss’s office, recommend an old school mate or co-worker for an unadvertised opening, or just say great things about that job applicant whom they happen to know. But since most Americans, white and black, live virtually segregated lives, and since advantages, privileges and economic progress have already accrued in favor of whites, the additional advantages that flow from this help go almost exclusively to whites, DiTomaso said.
DiTomaso’s findings aren’t exactly new, said Algernon Austin, director of the Race, Ethnicity and the Economy program at the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning Washington-based think tank.
“Listen, I think it’s an important piece of work to reiterate and clarify the ways in which blacks are disadvantaged in the labor market,” Austin said. “Of course, part of the appeal of this is that there’s no malice. You can say no one is to blame. The Businessweek piece says, well, people just like helping out their friends, which is perfectly natural and normal.”
DiTomaso’s work does confirm that networks — not just the kind you build over awkward conversations, finger foods and watered-down cocktails but the kind you’re born into — matter, Austin said. It also points to just how different forms of inequality feed one another. Family-and-friends segregation feeds job and income inequality. That in turn feeds neighborhood and school segregation. That then leaves some kids less likely to receive a quality education and escape from the cycle, he said.
Austin thinks that increased public awareness of opportunity hoarding, as well as public policies that enhance options for blacks and Hispanics, could make a difference. Bringing more blacks into the labor force would have the immediate effect of reducing black poverty, and quality early-childhood education has been proven to blunt some of the short- and long-term effects of childhood poverty, he said.
“To President Obama’s credit, he’s certainly focused on early childhood education,” Austin said.
It’s not that black workers don’t attempt the same sort of job assists within their own networks, said Deirdre Royster, an economic sociologist at New York University and author of Race and the Invisible Hand: How White Networks Exclude Black Men From Blue Collar Jobs.
African Americans ask neighbors, significant others, the significant others of neighbors, relatives and friends about open jobs, too. But since black unemployment rates were far higher than white rates before, during and after the recession, the number of people in a typical black social network who are in a position to help is far more limited.
According to Royster, there’s an additional twist: When blacks are aware of a job, they describe the job, the boss, the company and its preferences and needs. Then they follow up with a warning.
“They give the person looking for a job all sorts of information and then they say, ‘But don’t tell them I sent you,'” said Royster.
Black workers are aware of something that researchers are still trying to explain: White bosses often worry, lack of statistical evidence aside, that black workers are more likely to sue them or band together in the workplace and try to change things, Royster said. That seems all the more likely if the black workers already know one another, she said. And many white hiring managers still assume, consciously or unconsciously, that black workers bring undesirable workplace habits and qualities, Royster said.
Indeed, a 2003 study by Devah Pager, now a Princeton University sociologist, found that white men with criminal records were more likely to get callbacks for job interviews than black men with the same qualifications and no criminal history.
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@Da Jokah
1. White women benefit from affirmative action more than anybody.
2. Affirmation action is really CORRECTIVE ACTION.
Slavery, Jim Crow, Sundown Towns, Early Immigration (and all of its derivatives) was affirmative action for whites.
Which whites still benefit to this day.
You & @XPraetorious need to come up with some better material.
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@ Adonis, Like how you think. You sure you are not Sondis?
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My thoughts…
1) The very nature of the exercise is an ironic display of White privilege. Once Solomon had experienced a minor degree of discrimination he was immediately able to return to his White world. Retreat is not possible for those of us that are truly Black. We can not retreat from who we are.
2) Solomon’s reaction shows him to be weak if anything. The experiences he “endured” are near daily experiences for most Black men. Not that such experiences are negligible, but they are so common that we tend to develop a certain level of fortitude that allows us to not fall to pieces becase someone follows us in a store or adverts their gaze if our eyes should happen to meet.
I’ve been called nigger, egged, jumped, spat at/on, threatened, had dogs sicked on me, placed in remedial courses even when my academic performance qualified me for placement in normal classes, harassed/handcuffed by the police for no reason etc. Those events aren’t even the length of my experiences. It is pathetic that Solomon only faced minor issues and succumbed to stress. He had no real opportunity to learn about the Black experience (which he was at least humble enough to admit).
3) The motivation for the experiment is entirely flaccid. Rather than accept the veracity of his Black peers’ narratives, Solomon was only able to accept them once he affirmed them through his White lens. Ostensibly, this experiment is noble, but beneath the surface it serves as an another example of the Black voice being muted or requiring a White voice to validate it. It is tiresome.
There is nothing to learn from Solomon: no new perspective or story. The experiment was an exercise in futility. He ran back to his Whiteness, his perspective contributes no worthy anecdotes that could not be garnered by listening to the daily experiences of an average Black American. Worst of all, rather than speaking for the unheard voice of Blacks, the experiment became a pity party for how difficult it was for Solomon to adjust to being mistreated.
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@mary Burrell
Mid twenties, 80’s black kid, New Yorker. Just got into racism & racial politics this year.
Before that I use to think racism was a thing of the past, and never knew how disgusting & prevelent it was today.
I am more on the SingleBlackMale website.
I am biased just like everybody else, I just try to evolve and made the necessary strides.
And I doubt that me & Sondis writes the same, but based on your observations, I am sure him & I come to similar conclusions.
I am one of the last people who hates to use the victim card. I am a frugal black conservative.
But to ignore racism, means that you either have an agenda or you are just not paying attention.
Goodnight
—–
Off topic. Did Abangond write about Antoinette Tuff? Excellent moment in BW history.
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@ Adonis: Maybe you should make a suggestion that he do a post on Antoinette Tuff, she is a true heroine. The mainstream media is not really talking about her much.
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@ Lwanda Magere: Very thought provoking comments, he was a bit of a punk. And like you said, he gets to go back to his white priviledge,while black people have to continue to live in their reality. Instead of him empathizing with his friends, he judged them and blew them off, thinking they were just playing the victim. That is insulting as hell.
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Adonis
1. White women benefit from affirmative action more than anybody.
There are more white women benefiting because there are more white women. But blacks still benefit at a higher rate. Regardless of absolute numbers or rates, blacks still benefit unfairly from affirmative action. So I don’t really see how it changes anything.
2. Affirmation action is really CORRECTIVE ACTION.
Not really. Studies show that regardless of where someone starts, most people, end up comparable to those of similar ability by the 2nd generation.
Slavery, Jim Crow, Sundown Towns, Early Immigration (and all of its derivatives) was affirmative action for whites.
Slavery primarily benefited wealthy whites at the expense of poor whites who saw their incomes decrease as a result of the negative wage pressures.
Jim Crow primarily benefited black business owners at the expense of their black customers and white competitors.
Sundown towns? I’ll give you that one. I used to live in a black area and it sucked. But it was the people living there who made it suck.
”
Affirmative action is when rich whites help upper income blacks & women while pretending to help poor blacks and sticking it to poor whites.
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@ Lwanda @ Mary
I agree: the first time I read his Washington Post article I found it offensive: it assumes that white people are “objective” and black people are not.
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@ Lwanda Magere
“He ran back to his Whiteness, his perspective contributes no worthy anecdotes that could not be garnered by listening to the daily experiences of an average Black American. Worst of all, rather than speaking for the unheard voice of Blacks, the experiment became a pity party for how difficult it was for Solomon to adjust to being mistreated.”
**********
Although I fully agree with everything you wrote, the ONE value I see in JS’ undercover experiment is that it substantiates that the typical white person has no realistic idea what it’s like to be on the receiving end of caustic racism/white supremacy.
So when clueless whites show up here espousing that things aren’t all that bad nowadays for black people, (how would they know?) I often steer them to Solomon’s (mis)adventure, and then invite them to follow up on their original comment.
For some reason they never do.
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^^ I agree with Matari that his story has value as something to point white people to who do not believe what blacks are saying. Griffin is better but too easy for whites to dismiss as Ancient History.
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@Lwanda, I agree with you that Solomon should have just took his friends words as truths but what I find more confusing about some of my race is that they don’t see the out right obvious conditions brought about by environment and treatment. How can they deny the monumental advantage whites have in this world and deny the monumental disadvantage people of color and specifically blacks in America have. Look at the road traveled for the two races. Whites have always been Royalty, government officials, land owners, business owners, teachers, doctors, etc.. They have always had the money, the education, the land, collateral and so on. Whites owned other human beings until the world started to change it’s views about slavery and then America or at least half of it followed suit. After the war whites said okay fine your free but you can’t come into our towns, you can’t shop in our stores, you can’t go to our universities and we want you to stay in your little circle. For those who broke those rules paid with their lives, for those who agreed with those who broke those rules also paid with their lives, until an atmosphere of fear spread among blacks more oppressive than a jail cell. This is exactly what the whites of that time wanted and to a lesser degree goes on today. This way of life lasted another 100 years until the civil rights movement, and before anyone says differently, in 1963 a black man was lynched every 4 days in this country, this statistic and date should dismiss every persons belief that black people should have gotten over the slavery thing 200 years ago. Whatever degree of equality African Americans have now has only taken place less than 50 years ago and as you can tell from the horrendous acts perpetrated by the GOP recently, political racism is as prevalent as it ever was. On top of the road African Americans have to travel just to get a simple high school diploma and a decent paying job, they have to go through life wondering if every white person they encounter is racist, is their boss racist, etc…The psychological impact of growing up in a world owned and ruled by white people who may or may not like you for the color of your skin is only half the battle, most African Americans have to avoid the dangers of their neighborhoods every single minute of every single day; gangs, drugs, police, death, guns….These are horrible things for any person to go through, let alone children, women and the elderly. After 400 years of this kind of treatment it is clearly obvious to me that no amount of data, no university study or one outlandish persons opinion can convince me that a white person and a black person in this country have the same advantages and that every aspect of society should be equal. There are some instances where affirmative action can play a positive role in helping equal the playing field, voting rights act should stay intact and so on until we can be sure that much of the inequality has been defeated. It will probably never be wiped out altogether but I know for a fact that we are far far removed from the day where we can abandon programs that help the disadvantaged or level racial inequality…One more thing I would like to add is that if the roles were reversed and whites were brought to this country in the same manner and went through the same conditions and were treated the same way; they would be in the same stagnate social and economic conditions that blacks face today…Psychological abuse, hate mongering and physical assault does huge damage to a person. Widespread actions perpetrated on large groups of people causes huge amounts of physical and psychological damage throughout generations of families and changes who they are, who they will be and what they are capable of….The torture, rape, constant abuse and anxiety carried out by the white man against the African American people is the number one cause for their social and economic dysfunctions of today…it is clearly obvious to me and I can’t fathom why any of my race would deny such things!….
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@Lwanda
Perfect, couldn’t have said it myself. It’s all good to be in a bubble world, but when it happens to you/your people tells your ignorance. Now you, “understand” despite the words of the oppressed that explained this ALREADY. *eye roll and groan* Not to mention the pity party you’ll get.
-This reminds of the Stop and Frisk fiasco with Kal Pen, who supported the policy, BUT couldn’t stand being randomly selected at the Airport. Despite the minorities talk, he wasn’t getting it….UNTIL his fellow “group” told him, then he all of sudden agreed of getting rid of the Stop and Frisk, unbelievable.
@William Bentley
OMG, THIS right here. I have noticed this countless times. It seems as though(And it never fails) majority of whites ALWAYS have connects to some type of opportunity whether is for careers, security, financial assistance. They always KNOW someone that can provide them with any type of help. Before when my mother used to work as a bus driver, her bus aide would go on about how he knows the police chief, agent for his daughter acting, firemen, teachers. etc. etc. It was like “Dang, do they know the whole world?!” This is very alarming.
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“Uncle Milton
To Fiamma:
No luck finding it though. Below is the only clip I could locate of Eddie as a white man
I believe it was called “White like me” Here’s the entire sketch:
http://www.snotr.com/video/422/Eddie_Murphy_goes_undercover ”
– – –
A belated thanks to you Uncle Milton, as that is the exact skit I was referring to, albeit the wig Eddie wears in it is dark rather than blond.
Much appreciated! 😀
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the ONE value I see in JS’ undercover experiment is that it substantiates that the typical white person has no realistic idea what it’s like to be on the receiving end of caustic racism/white supremacy.
It does no such thing. As I said earlier, no one would risk liver damage taking drugs just to see if there’s a difference. The whole thing was a scam just like those so-called “anti racist” radicals who paint racist and homophobic graffiti on college campuses to push their beliefs. If he really wanted to see if there was a difference he’d move his ass to the hood and see how he gets treated there.
A woman named Amanda Kijera has the same mental illness. She was always running around spouting off. After the Haiti earthquake, she was one of the first aid workers there. Of course, it wasn’t too long before she was beaten and raped. Did she even blame her attacker? Nope. She blamed white men and said she was grateful for the experience because it gave her a better understanding of what her sisters of color go through. Clearly, she has some sort of martyr complex /mental illness.
It reminds me of Joshua Solomon and even our own Mr Bentley. If someone looks at them funny, if someone looks at them too long, if someone doesn’t look at them long enough, if someone is rude, if someone is too polite… well.. that’s all evidence of racism and micro aggression. Yet if blacks beat and raped them they’d be “grateful for the experience” and chalk it up to their “understandable anger”. And you cats eat it up because it’s what you want to believe.
In an old post, Abagond said whites trust blacks only in so far as they agree with the their own views. And calls blacks who agree with whites “Rented Negroes.” It seems to me that describes the blacks on his own blog. If whites disagree with thenm then they’re “lying racists”. But if a white says something they like then its “the truth.
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Abagond, just want to say how glad I am I found your site. I think it is a great place for people to come and learn things about each other, learn things about ourselves and discover things about the world we may not have been aware of…I think you have a great thing here and I believe that the more sites we have like this one, the closer we, as a society, will get to understanding and respecting one another…sites like this can only get us closer to that place most of us want to be regarding co-existing and mutual respect…Me Happy!
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@da jokah
Then you will kindly point to where I, as a black person on this blog, have called a person a “lying racist” simply because they did not agree with me.
I can wait….as it is a big blog.
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“Da Jokah,
It does no such thing. As I said earlier, no one would risk liver damage taking drugs just to see if there’s a difference. The whole thing was a scam just like those so-called “anti racist” radicals who paint racist and homophobic graffiti on college campuses to push their beliefs.’
What proof do you have that this was a scam and Solomon lied?
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lifelearner
I think it would be interesting to see the results if one was sttempted in the near future. Perhaps this one might last longer.
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“William Bentley
What does “Schwarzes” and “Oma” mean? ..and were the older people actually speaking of Hitler?…I always thought Germany had become somewhat diverse. Is it that rare for a German citizen to see a person of color that they stare out of curiosity or are they staring out of some sort of protest?”
Linda says,
I see Mary answered you and she’s correct, schwarze means “black” or (dark, in slang) and oma means “grandma” — and yes, the old people meant Hitler. I was there in the 80’s (before and after the wall) so I doubt there would be anyone saying those things now.
In the big cities (Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg) you will find a more diverse population of people but when compared to say Paris or London, it’s not the same.There is no comparison with the US — USA is truly a “melting pot” of people.
and of course, the towns that “hosted” the American or British military bases, would see the black American soldiers. These towns were more used to and more open to foreigners, because they got used to the Americans spending “big money” in town (but they also complained the loudest about Americans)
In the beginning, I had lived in a small town in the mountains where no one spoke English at all (I did this as an immersion tactic to learn the language) — I was the only tan spot in town and I was made to feel Very welcome once the locals realized I was a student. In the beginning, I felt like a walking museum piece but once they got used to me, the stares stopped.
Some people told me later that they thought I was middle Eastern or north African (Arab) but once I said, I was from the Caribbean, it was all smiles and all good…it seemed they preferred real “black” people better than Turks or Arabs… a lot of animosity thrown at the Arabs.
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“The whole thing was a scam just like those so-called “anti racist” radicals who paint racist and homophobic graffiti on college campuses to push their beliefs. If he really wanted to see if there was a difference he’d move his ass to the hood and see how he gets treated there.”
.
*************
.
Abagond,
Does DaJok reminds you of a banned unsavory troll named Duck-Duck Pond or Poo, or whatever his name was?
LOL
Duck-Duck loved to go around this blog to find anything/anyone to disagree with for the sake of being disagreeable.
Or maybe he’s that Zek or Zeke dude who thought he was a anti-racist whose feelings got hurt when he was called out on some of his racist stuff?
Or that Jas0n Burns character who banned himself, then sneaked back in here for a secret encore, and was outed by his own tell-tale icon? lol
The trolls around here are becoming pretty sneaky of late! 😀
Speaking of sneaky, where’s Randy hiding!
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“Matari,
Does DaJok reminds you of a banned unsavory troll named Duck-Duck Pond or Poo, or whatever his name was?”
Linda says,
you’re right Matari… his argument about “black people being high risk because of other black people” sounds a lot like Duck-Duck Goof… almost word for word.
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Linda
What proof do you have that this was a scam and Solomon lied?
The same proof you have that it wasn’t.
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“Jim Crow primarily benefited black business owners at the expense of their black customers and white competitors.”
– – –
Do you simply make this stuff up as you go along?
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Da Jokah is trying to play mind games. Why waste your time with the nitwit?!
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@Da Jokah
How do “blacks still benefit unfairly from affirmative action”?
Affirmative Action is for MINORITIES.
Any who is a Non-white men. Please illustrate to us. Maybe I am the only dense one on the thread.
Please give the number to your Meth dealer. I want some too!
First I want the source to that study.
Second, how is that relevant to what I said. Why did they even institute Affirmative Action in the 1st place?
Slavery, Jim Crow, Sundown Towns, Early Immigration (and all of its derivatives) was affirmative action for whites.
Huh? But after Bacon’s rebellion, you were free people, meaning that you were not treated as property. Meaning that you had the right of life, liberty & pursuit of happiness.
The funny thing is @Da Jokah is that you know that wealthy are azz-raping you even till this day, but you are mad about the little crumb black people get from affirmative action.
It really shows me where your priorities are. Lol
You are looking at money, and I am looking at freedom of movement, mortality. Which you need that to even get the opportunity to amass wealth.
It also, kept you from getting wiped out genetically, since you worked overtime keeping black men & white women from getting together romantically.
Because these sucky people were & still to this day are undermined economically, even if they want to improve their lot in life.
@Da Jokah, you conveniently forget, and I know Abagond has touched on this, before 1950s, white were broke, and commit crimes left & right (xPraetorious says that crime was not poppin’ during the depression & WW2, whatever)
But after the war was over, white people got handouts, loans (that black people could not get), aka
real WELFARE to help them amass a little money & real estate.
AND THAT IS HOW THE WHITE MIDDLE CLASS GOT STARTED.
Not because you had all this talent & ability
Not because GOD (or nature) shown you some type of favor.
Not because white are smarter or more civil (whites just do not know there history, illiterate cave dwellers & murdered people by the millions)
The Dark Ages actually happened
No. White people got REAL help.
Help that black people have still not gotten.
You keep trying to make excuses for your failures in life. If you stop spending all your energy focused on black people and the little benefits they get
And work that deteriorating “white privilege” you have, maybe you can move up in life.
There are no obstacles keeping white men from being great, only your abilities or lack thereof.
To review. Affirmative action is FAR from a black thing.
Gays, women, Indian, Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans,
Anybody who is non-white male can get it.
Black people are probably the least likely to benefit.
If black people were truly getting ahead with affirmative action, they would have gotten rid of it a long time ago.
Or jealous white people would be rioting in the streets.
Good day @Da Jokah
You need to touch up on real history, not the “Lies Your Teacher Told You.”
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“Da Jokah
Linda
What proof do you have that this was a scam and Solomon lied?
The same proof you have that it wasn’t.”
Linda says,
First off smarta’s, I’m not one who posted the story
and since Abagond presented the story with pictures and links to his interviews, then by your own words, you must also have photographs and interviews stating the opposite and that this boy lied and it’s a scam… so put up or shut up!
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Da, just as we cannot see ourselves as we actually are, you cannot see that your views regarding every subject posted are prejudiced towards your very emotionally charged belief that these things just don’t exist. Well that’s just impossible, these are real feelings, real experiences and actual events. For you to dismiss every single subject as some facade or delusion of blacks is ludicrous. As I have said before, I have witnessed these things myself. I have been the subject of racism as a 7 and 8 year boy when grown men would tell me and my brother that our mom was a “N” lover and of course there was the silent racism of not being seated at restaurants when my step father was with us but getting seated right away when it was just us white folk. Watching my step father lose his roofing job so that they could bring over 5 white college kids who were home from school but who had no experience. My step father had been roofing for 15 years and was recently employed for almost 2 years with company in question. I have been through many of the things that Joshua went through and I didn’t have to change the color of my skin. You keep bringing up liver damage, every pharmaceutical product has numerous risks. People take these risks everyday, they are not major risks by any means but side affects that have a very small chance of occurring and for liability reasons the manufacturer labels them. Every time you take an aspirin you risk liver damage, every time you take antacid you risk stomach bleeding, how many energy drinks have you drank after they told you they are bad for your heart…that is a horrible excuse for your theory. You are behaving like the typical conservative in denial of the facts. Someone gives you evidence to prove their point and because you cannot dispute it you make some wild claim, “Come on now, he’s faking it”, “It was all a publicity stunt”….Now tell me this, if this story would have bolstered your claims would you still have claimed it as a hoax…and why in the world would he have done such a thing? News programs do this all the time with fat suits, old age make-up, women on computers acting like children, etc..and every single experiment proves the point they are trying to make…Joshua learned a hard lesson and it was the only way a white person who has no sense of reality due to their stubbornness is going to learn such harsh facts about this world and a large portion of his race…your remarks only define you as someone that is blindly biased and no amount of factual evidence will put a dent in that wall of denial you have. If you would at least open your mind and stop looking to disclaim every discussion and listen to the men and women speaking about their lives and their experiences. When someone tells you a personal story, don’t tell them it didn’t happen. Don’t tell them it was their own fault, don’t give them another account where the opposite happened…Have you ever thought about the PAIN that a person feels when someone stares at them because they are the only one on the train who is different than everyone else? What about the pain of waiting in the rain for a taxi cab, only to watch everyone get a cab but you. Pain, a word that many whites don’t think about enough, almost as if people of color do not feel pain or sadness or hopelessness. We are used to black men being angry, rapping about the man and busting a cap in someone…but before all of that anger there was only pain, sorrow and hopelessness…wanting to fit into a society that kept telling them they weren’t good enough, nobody wanted them, they aren’t smart enough, go back to Africa!…once pain, sorrow and hopelessness replaces love, happiness and hope, it’s really hard to reverse the damage…Think about how people feel more often and maybe you will be better equipped to see both sides of any story or discussion whether your initial views are for or against the subject….
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Da Jokah,
“That’s simply not an excuse for discrimination. Banks should judge on an individual basis, because people are individuals.
Discrimination is your word not mine. Since you’ve used that word it would be discrimination not to assign a member of a group the risk they pose to the lender. Lenders assign EVERYONE some risk based on the behavior of others in their demographic. Why should a white whose never filed bankruptcy have to accept some of the risks for whites have? But they do. So it’s no different for blacks.”
No, they do not. Lenders can’t assign risk based on race. Everyone has their own individual credit history for the very purpose of determining an individual’s credit worthiness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Credit_Opportunity_Act
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My reply to Da Jokah was grammatical trash. My bad.
I like trolls. I see them as a benefit to the conversation. But you have two choices.
1. Do not engage. Just skip to the next comment.
2. Out Troll them. And if I have the time, I go the distance with them, stride for stride.
The funny thing about Da Jokah, Heath Ledger’s Joker gave the perfect insight in the mind of a misguided troll.
Those who have not seen The Dark Knight & The Dark Knight Rises, excellent movies on psychology & mindsets of people.
Good day
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Matari : “Duck-Duck Pond or Poo…?”
– – –
LOL! Yeah Duck (or even Bull) Poo sounds right, but Linda is correct, his username was actually “Duck Duck Goofs”.
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Linda
It’s hardly a unique argument. Everyone knows rates are based on risk. Insurance companies and lenders will tell you that to your face.
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Thank you Linda…I feel a bit better knowing that they were excepting after they got to know you…but those older people sound scary, after all the statement, “Things would be different if HE was here…” put a chill down my spine….What if someone tries to clone that freak…?…I’m sure some twisted people have thought about it.
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@Fiamma
It would not shock me at all if @DJ was on someone’s payroll.
It is great entertainment for free!!!
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“Da Jokah
Linda
It’s hardly a unique argument. Everyone knows rates are based on risk. Insurance companies and lenders will tell you that to your face.”
Linda says,
You’re reading too fast, DJ
that’s Solesearch you need to respond to — she was the person trying to tell you that people have SS numbers for a reason and that the banks use these first to assess risk.
I’m the one who wants you to provide a link to the story that states Joshua Solomon lied.
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You mean like a video account, written account, eyewitness testimony and actual written accounts of his experiment and Joshua’s actual testimony…that’s all!…I think that would be enough evidence in any trial to get a conviction, especially when the defendants evidence was ZERO!
http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/white/solomon.html
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“William Bentley
Thank you Linda…I feel a bit better knowing that they were excepting after they got to know you…but those older people sound scary, after all the statement, “Things would be different if HE was here…” put a chill down my spine….What if someone tries to clone that freak…?…I’m sure some twisted people have thought about it.”
Linda says,
I just laughed it off or told them “he’s dead because he lost”… it typically silenced them because I think they did not expect me to understand or answer them in German.
but I can tell you this, once West and East Germany reunified, things did change somewhat. I went to the east side before the wall came down and I can honestly say, I was Not comfortable…they had no love for foreigners, even though they were polite. After reunification, many racist incidents happened on the East side.
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Lenders can’t assign risk based on race. Everyone has their own individual credit history for the very purpose of determining an individual’s credit worthiness.
In that case, whites should be the ones complaining because part of the risk associated with being black has been transferred to them. Once again, whites are subsidizing blacks. Which means if blacks pay higher rates it’s due to their own individual credit history. Sounds like you should be arguing with whoever said blacks pay higher rates due to discrimination.
”
Fiamma
Do you simply make this stuff up as you go along?
If blacks can’t shop at a white business they have to shop somewhere else. That creates more customers for black businesses. The evidence is that a lot of black businesses went under after Jim Crow was overturned. It’s simple logic.
”
Mr Bentley
Every time you take an aspirin you risk liver damage, every time you take antacid you risk stomach bleeding, how many energy drinks have you drank after they told you they are bad for your hear
Taking an aspirin every now and then isn’t going to do anything. Taking 4 or 5 Ibuprofen a day for 3 or 4 days when you have the flu won’t either. But if you take drugs in high dosage for an extended period like this guy did it’s a different story. His skin color changed because the dosage was too high for his liver to process it.
Da, just as we cannot see ourselves as we actually are, you cannot see that your views regarding every subject posted are prejudiced towards your very emotionally charged belief that these things just don’t exist.
Of course you’re not emotionally charged at all. You see things EXACTLY as they really are right? I think I’ve found your new nick name.. The Enlightened One.
Well that’s just impossible, these are real feelings, real experiences and actual events. For you to dismiss every single subject as some facade or delusion of blacks is ludicrous.
For blacks to blame all their problems on whites is ludicrous but they do it.
As I have said before, I have witnessed these things myself.
I don’t really care if someone said your mother was a “N” lover. Was she not? You think I don’t believe you when you said people would look at you and shake their head? Why wouldn’t I believe you? I do it myself. LOL I’ve also been on the receiving end of the head shake. I’ve gotten angry looks from blacks and asians for dating “their women”. I’ve even had guys try to pick fights. The only thing that accomplished was me getting laid later that night. haha
You said you had experience that made you more knowledgeable than average. I replied you were particularly unqualified to have an opinion because of your experience. You were probably given more of a cold shoulder BECAUSE of Operation Zebra. Ironically, you would have had less hassle from whites IF you’d been black. How you were treated depends on a lot of factors.. what you are, what your parents are, which of your parents is which, social class, majority demographic in your area, what part of the country, etc. You could have a completely separate experience depending on those factors.
Case in point, the pietrzak/jenkins murders. The trial was only a couple of months ago. Odd that Abagond didn’t write about it.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/gang-initially-thought-rob-brooklyn-raised-marine-sgt-jan-pietrzak-young-bride-quiana-jenkins-pietrzak-ended-tying-sexually-assaulting-murdering-article-1.1379016
People have a right to their opinion whether you like it or not. I don’t care about rude, microaggression and all that other silly shlt. But I draw the line when someone puts their hands on someone or their property. Otherwise, get over it. Only you can’t get over it. You’re a little kid who got picked on and you’ve been carrying it around for 40 years. If you’d gone to school in the projects instead you’d probably have joined the klan.
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Da Jokah
“In that case, whites should be the ones complaining because part of the risk associated with being black has been transferred to them. Once again, whites are subsidizing blacks. Which means if blacks pay higher rates it’s due to their own individual credit history. Sounds like you should be arguing with whoever said blacks pay higher rates due to discrimination.”
There is no risk associated with being black besides racism. If a black person pays higher rates or is denied credit it could be because of their credit history or it could be because of discrimination. Lenders still engage in racial discrimination, it’s just not legal.
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“I’ve gotten angry looks from blacks and asians for dating “their women”. I’ve even had guys try to pick fights. The only thing that accomplished was me getting laid later that night. haha”
**********
Whose picking the fights now?
At least we can presume why da jok is always itching/misbehaving..
Da jok (or d-d goof) is here for da big payback!
I can’t see why else he would spend an inordinate amount of time here.
He’s got a schizo Love/Hate relationship with darker folks!
As much as he dislikes them, he can’t leave us be.
Obviously he’s not going around disrespecting/challenging black men in person (off-line). That would be quite hazardous to his overall health. lol
So he does it here… where he thinks it’s safe.
Just another little white troll with racist issues!
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Da Jokah
“It’s hardly a unique argument. Everyone knows rates are based on risk. Insurance companies and lenders will tell you that to your face.”
It’s not unique or difficult to grasp, yet you are still confused. Credit worthiness is based on individual risk. It is illegal to base it on a person’s race.
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Da, I will make one more posty and then i will not respond to anymore of your PTSD childish, closed minded banter. I have not once read on any of these post where one person blamed their problems on whites. I have read intelligent people discussing social issues as they see them and how they affected them. You disclaim every single incident or come up with some totally ridiculous claim that blacks somehow are responsible for their own slavery, for their own torture, for their inequality, for their own racism, for people staring at them, etc…I tell you what, I’ll challenge you to an uphill race and the conditions are that I get to use a Honda 250 ATV and you have to go barefoot, carry a 100 pound backpack and walk backwards. After I beat you to the top of the hill I want you to tell me why you could not keep up with me. And after you give me excuses about your feet hurting and walking backwards slowed you down and so on, I am going to explain to you that my advantages over you were similar to the advantages whites have had over blacks since the end of slavery. Did I put those blisters on your feet, no, but I made the rules that led to the blisters on your feet. Did I jump on your back and add extra weight to your climb, no, but I gave you no other option. Did I physically make you walk backwards, no, but if you didn’t I wouldn’t let you participate. This is what a lot of these conversations relate to, the very difficult and almost impossible task that blacks have trying to adapt to this society and crawl out of the quagmire the years of oppression has created for them.
You say I have carried the experiences I had as a child regarding these cowardly racist, who never once said a word to my step fathers face, it was always when he walked away or as they drove by in a car, yet I have not spoke about these events for at least 15 to 20 years and only added my experiences to the conversations I have joined in on once I found this site. What you don’t seem to extract from my comments is the extreme sense of pride I have in my Mother and the most wonderful experiences I have living in a biracial family. I wear my biracial family experiences as a badge of honor and if not for those experiences I may have become another pea brained close minded racist conservative like many of my race. On the other hand I believe you have had some bad experiences with men or boys of a different race that has imprinted on you and has made you prejudice based on your experiences. If this is the case then you are either, very young still or are not as bright as you may appear. Do you think that growing up in South Central L.A. and Altadena I was not picked on by black kids? I was picked on by more black kids than any white kids at the time, however as I grew older I thought about what it must have been like to be a black child in the 70’s, 80’s, etc..I realized that they were not picking on me because the color of my skin, if that was the case every single black child would have picked on me, however it was only a few. These boys were single parent children, children of alcoholics and drug addicts, children with no food in their house. The reason I know this to be true is because when we moved from a very black area to a very white area I still got picked on by the same type of kids that picked on me before, except these kids were white. White kids without fathers, white kids with alcoholic parents, white kids with no food in the house. In both cases it was a bigger kid taking advantage of a smaller kid and passing along their misery from their home life to someone on the playground….Just like what you try to do here on this site. You have some interesting points and many points I agree with to some degree but then you add a pinch of racism, some insults and a bit of devils advocate in your comments and the chance for a reasonable conversation is lost….Have a good night Jokah.
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solesearch
I got that after you linked the ECOA. I disagree with the law because you can’t legislate risk out of existence. Then again there are lots of laws I disagree with. #shrugs.
”
matari
I don’t know why a player wanna hate a G
I didn’t choose the game, the game chose me
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Mr Bentley
Do you have children?
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@Solesearch
And yet we still have redlining. We need a post on that.
@DJ
So there is a risk associated simply with being black? What is that risk exactly and how do we quantify that?
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@Da Jokah
“Discrimination is your word not mine. ”
It is what it is, no matter what you choose to call it.
“Why should a white whose never filed bankruptcy have to accept some of the risks for whites have? But they do. So it’s no different for blacks.”
So then you believe in racial discrimination. I don’t.
“We’re looking at people in a position to commit those crimes. Not every one is in a position to commit all of them. Some crimes can only be committed by upper management.”
Now you’re just making excuses why white men commit a disproportionately higher rate of white-collar crimes. If you were fair and just, then you would’ve simply said, yes corporations should discriminate against white males, just as you had no hesitation blessing the bankers’ discrimination of black business owners.
And yes, low-level employees can and do commit a large share of white-collar crimes, the most common of which is theft.
“When you look at the percentages for upper management I don’t think you’ll find whites over represented. You might find white males overrepresented. ”
Actually you’ll find whites overrepresented in upper management and white males VASTLY overrepresented. That’s the positive discrimination they face in the workplace, even though it should be the opposite since they clearly pose a bigger risk.
“Do you believe in affirmative action?”
No I do not. But, if people like you did not believe in discrimination, then there’d be no need for affirmative action!
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@ William bentley
I wrote a post in that vein: “If America were a game of Monopoly”:
That is based on the 2000 census, the latest consistent set of numbers available at the time. In some ways it would be WORSE now because the Great Recession greatly widened the wealth gap between blacks and whites.
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@ William Bentley: I think this is the way of the trolls, they disclaim everything. I would not engage da jokah, if I were you. Some of us think he is a troll from previous years ago, with a different screen name.
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It angers me when we are trying to tell you how our feet hurt in our ill fitting shoes, and you the privileged one acts obtuse. That is what all these race realist and trolls do, that come on these blogs. I get so sick of that garbage.
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@ William Bentley, good analogy Mr. Bentley, I like that.
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So, Da Jokah, is true to his screen name. The Joker, causing mischief and mayhem. I see you Joker.
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Thank you Mary…nothing he says can bring me down, I grew up with several miserable people in my life and if they couldn’t bring me down then some self loathing Rush Limbaugh wanna be can’t put a dent in my armor either…
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@ Adonis
Wow!!!
@ Fiamma
He actually reminds me of churchs for some reason. Unless they are all the same, then I have to ask what is the obsession with black blogs for them.
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@ William Bentley
“then some self loathing Rush Limbaugh wanna be can’t put a dent in my armor either…”—ROFL! I like that.
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@ William Bently: Rush Limbaugh wanna be. LOL!
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“I got that after you linked the ECOA. I disagree with the law because you can’t legislate risk out of existence. Then again there are lots of laws I disagree with. #shrugs.”
You obviously still don’t understand. You should go read it again. It doesn’t attempt to legislate risk out of existence. It legislates a reliable way of calculating an individuals risks. There are obviously a lot of ignorant people out there who fallback on racial stereotypes to make decisions because they are too stupid to do actual information gathering and risk analysis of an applicant. So the government has to step in and tell people to not be lazy and/or stupid. Otherwise there would be a lot of lenders deciding financial futures based on shades of brown.
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jefe
So there is a risk associated simply with being black? What is that risk exactly and how do we quantify that?
If individualized risk assessments consider all the individualized risks and blacks still file bankruptcy and foreclosure at higher rates than asians, hispanics, whites and other than there is a higher risk associated with being black.
”
It doesn’t attempt to legislate risk out of existence. It legislates a reliable way of calculating an individuals risks.
If that were true then blacks wouldn’t have higher bankruptcy and foreclosure rates.
”
resw77
So then you believe in racial discrimination. I don’t.
I believe applicants should be approved and charged based on the best analysis of the risks they pose to the lender.
Now you’re just making excuses why white men commit a disproportionately higher rate of white-collar crimes.
Like you guys try to blame crime on poverty? But, no, I’m not “just making excuses”. The concept is pretty simple. Sprinters frequently get caught doping with performance enhancing drugs. Those caught are disproportionately black. Is that because blacks disproportionately use performance enhancing drugs? Or because there are a lot more black sprinters? I’m thinking it’s the latter.
And yes, low-level employees can and do commit a large share of white-collar crimes, the most common of which is theft.
This only supports the point I made using sprinters. Because the percentage of blacks committing white collar crime is higher at the lower level and decreases at the higher levels.
Actually you’ll find whites overrepresented in upper management and white males VASTLY overrepresented.
Are blacks over represented in sprinting as well?
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“munu aka Bantu
I have here a question for you, Linda, or, I should say an invitation to a reflection: what do you think is the true self, the true nature of all those people with all those strange changes of behavior – is their true nature what you saw in display at your Caribbean homeland or what you saw later in the US? Did you get the impression that one of the behaviors were fake? Which one?”
Linda says,
Manu, to answer your question…. I don’t think human beings are one dimensional, so to be fair, I will say both of those behaviors reflect who (white American people) really are.
The white men who have no problems being with a black Caribbean woman would probably not be brave enough to be with a black woman in America.
I think people adapt to their surroundings, and the white foreigners that visit the “Tropics” feel that they could be more carefree and do things that they probably wouldn’t do at home… there aren’t any social constraints to hold them back or any of their social “peers” there to condemn them.
If you factor in some of the things white Americans say about why they “feel more comfortable” around black Caribbeans vs their own countrymen, black Americans – they do see and make a distinction based on “characteristics” they claim black Americans don’t have (which we all know is not true)
White Americans have been known to hire Caribbeans over black Americans because they believe the black Caribbeans cause less trouble or are harder workers… so they do operate off of “preferences” and use Caribbeans to put down black Americans. That is just how much contempt they have for their own countrymen.
All of these positive qualities white Americans attribute to black/brown Caribbeans doesn’t take away the fact that still see through the prism of skin colour/race – in USA, take away the accent and most white people can’t tell one from the other.
The only reason they are willing to make a difference is because we speak differently, we smile at them, and are willing to talk and joke with them. When white Americans hear the accent, their whole attitude changes because then they can’t assign the same stereotypes against Caribbeans that they do against black Americans — but they get over that, after long-term exposure to Caribbean people, and as Caribbean’s start to assimilate, then black is black.
the American-born Caribbean children, who don’t speak with accents, lose that honorary “white privilege” that their parents had and are treated like any black person in the US.
So, to answer you question: I think the real white American is the one that lives in the USA, who assigns privileges based on his white society’s views on the race and their personal experience. So, the fake person is the one who comes to the Caribbean to visit.
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Lance Armstrong, Roger Clemens, Mark McGuire, Brett Favre, Scott Boothby (track and field), John McEwen(track and field), Melissa Price(track and field), Kevin Toth(track and field), Serene Ross(track and field), Erick Walder(track and field), Lyle Alzado, Brian Urlacher, etc, etc all white athletes that doped and the list continues and continues and lets not forget that most of the worlds top athletes are black so the it would figure that more black athletes get caught doping, no one is going to check the white guy who comes in last place every race. And to tell you the truth Asians use performance enhancing drugs more than any demographic….and remember this, behind every black athlete that dopes is a money grubbing white manager (in some cases black) threatening to send the athlete back to the ghetto if he doesn’t out perform every one else…as he hands the needle to the athlete and tells him to suck it up.
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@Da Jokah
“Like you guys try to blame crime on poverty? …The concept is pretty simple. Sprinters frequently get caught doping with performance enhancing drugs. Those caught are disproportionately black. ”
You never heard me blame crime on anything. Don’t group me with anyone else on this blog. But here you are blaming white males’ disproportionately high white-collar crimes on the fact that they are overrepresented in upper-level management positions.
What you fail to realise is that white-collar crime data ALSO INCLUDE LOW-level white-collar crime, for which black white-collar criminals are well accounted.
And so your black sprinters analogy doesn’t apply.
Yes, white males are vastly overrepresented in upper-level positions, but white-collar crime is NOT wholly NOR mostly committed by upper-level management. For example, a low-level customer service rep stealing credit-card information commits credit-card fraud, which is the most common form of white-collar crime, along with price misrepresentation and unnecessary repairs, both of which are largely committed by the working class. http://nw3c.org/docs/publications/2010-national-public-survey-on-white-collar-crime.pdf?sfvrsn=8
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Mr Bentley
My point wasn’t that white athletes don’t juice. The point was that sprinters who juice tend to be black because sprinters tend to be black. Similarly, certain white collar crimes tend to be more white because more whites are in a position to commit them. Your the one who originally pointed that out to me.
Your last comment only supports my argument. You listed a number of white athletes who juiced but none of them were sprinters. That suggests opportunity as opposed to propensity.
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Okay…my bad, I understand your point….
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@Da Jokah
You are a funny, funny man. Do not think I didn’t peep how didn’t address my “artificial white middle class” argument. The “white man shuffle” is in EFFECT!!!
The difference between poor blacks and poor whites is.
Poor black folk are in concentrated SEGREGATED urban areas.
So, for example, Chicago, which is the big right-wing talking point.
IS THE MOST SEGREGATED URBAN CITY IN AMERICA.
They socially cut off poor blacks, leaving them to fend for themselves in that concrete jungle with no resources.
So, not only poor black people are poor & on top of each other, they are being discriminated against.
Law enforcement is allowing the violence to go on, as long as no middle class non-black person gets killed by a stray bullet.
This ball went into play after the civil rights bill was passed.
But in your fantasy maniacal scenarios, black middle class & upper class black people commit at the same rate as poor black people. Which if you believe that, I need to see your sources.
——–
And outside of mental illness, why are all these white men in upper management even committing crime.
What happened to white morals, I thought white people were above those things.
And it is not like these white males are starving & getting discriminated against.
I am here to listen to sound theories are white male criminality.
Are white men naturally criminal? Regardless of how much money is made? Where are the ABC specials on that? (We do have American Greed)
However we don’t charge white crime to the white populace, they way we do black crime.
This is QUINTESSENTIAL trolling.
Remember class, smart people don’t get dumb overnight, unless they have a clear agenda.
@Da Jokah, are you basically saying, that white people could sprint at an equal or superior level than black folks, but we are just discriminating against them.
And let run with that for 10 seconds, WHO IS DOING THE DISCRIMINATING? Blacks are not in a position to be racist. we lack the power & position.
Whoever is paying you @Da Jokah, I WANT IN!!!
——-
Another point,
As far as why blacks don’t get loans that other races get.
White people will put race before capitalism.
They do not mind losing money, in the name of white supremacy.
It is the same logic on why the prosecution IMO, half-prosecuted George Zimmerman in his trial.
It would be tough for the prosecution to go home in his community, having to explain themselves to their racist love ones & neighbors.
Good day
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Basically white crime is not psycho analyzed & charged to white populace.
Also off-topic, there was a special done on poor whites who live in the Mountains of Kentucky.
A Hidden America: Children of the Mountains
Interesting watch.
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Adonis, something people don’t think about much is the fact that there are over 1,000 hate groups in America. Over 90% of these hate groups are whites hating minorities. Of the 1,000 hate groups less than 1% of these groups can be defined as black or minority groups who hate whites. Whites make up 64% of the population but they make up 90% of organized hate. Blacks make up 14% of the population but only make up 1% of organized hate….Now tell me which group can be defined as racist and which group can be defined as tolerant…?
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@William Bentley
I did not know that. Thanks
The bigger question is, why are these hate group “allowed” to exist.
The black panthers were decimated (they were only created in response to the police brutality in black communities) and of those hate groups, none of those black group have teeth.
But to your comment about toleratance.
It goes back to genetic survival & power/privilege.
White people tout intelligence & superiority all the time. So I know they know the deal.
They just project their pathologies on to us.
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You know wisdom and intelligence are two different things. Some people are intelligent but lack one ounce of wisdom and vice verse. Some people can bring up some real thought provoking studies, spout off some statistics and sprinkle in a wide array of vocabulary words, however, their account or understanding of these facts is completely lost due to their lack of wisdom. It is no secret that poverty is a breeding ground for hunger, substance abuse, crime and so on. To discount poverty as a cause of these social issues is just plain ridiculous and usually made by persons who have never been affected by these conditions. They look in from far away and make their judgments based on their comfortable and safe lives. Making statements such as, “If I were poor I wouldn’t commit crime, I wouldn’t do drugs, I wouldn’t join a gang…” It’s just not possible for a person to make a reasonable and intelligent assumption about someones life condition if they have never lived in those conditions, it isn’t possible and will only be seen as arrogance and ignorance.
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Adonis
And outside of mental illness, why are all these white men in upper management even committing crime.
Regular crime is reported to the police. White collar crime is reported to the FBI. All white collar crime together (whether high level or low level, black or white) makes up ~3.8% of the crime reported to the FBI. Not even 3.8% of all crime but only 3.8% of the crime that just the FBI deals with. Yet you want to make a mountain out of that 3.8% and a molehill out of the other 94.2%.
But to return to your question, since you’re so insistent that white males are over represented among upper level white collar crime, perhaps you and she could cite the raw data for the racial breakdown for both upper level management and upper level white collar crime. I’d appreciate it.
”
Mr Bentley
there are over 1,000 hate groups in America.
I know where you got those number and they’re bogus. The group that published them counts websites, blogs and email lists as “hate groups”. They include them even if they’re run by only one person. They’re very biased about which websites they include. And they continue to list them even years after the websites no longer exist.
To discount poverty as a cause of these social issues is just plain ridiculous and usually made by persons who have never been affected by these conditions.
Poor people have higher violent crime rates than wealthy people. You see this and assume poverty causes violent crime. Not true. The reason those living in poverty have higher violent crime rates is because low IQ causes both. There are actually a few smart people people who grew up in poverty due to unfortunate circumstances and their violent crime rates are closer to middle class violent crime rates than the poor people they grew up with.
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Correction:
Yet you want to make a mountain out of that 3.8% and a molehill out of the other 96.2%.
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This just proves why Adam is Adamdam and is damned. eVIL cannot LIVe.
By their own free will they’ve written their own fate. Why should we weep?
I’m with sondis. Black people should be thinking about how to conduct our business independently with respect, love, and fairness among ourselves. The problem is not geographical but mental. As long as we remain chained to white people in our minds, our suffering will continue. It’s funny how far indifference can take you.
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Origin:
That’s the ticket to our salvation, to get far away from white people as possible, then we will be able to heal and then work on becoming independent of whites.
Integration has been the death of black people, being whites never wanted us to integrate with them and still don’t. hence our status in American.
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@Da Jokah
I see you keep deflecting from the issue and making excuses. Most white-collar crime is not committed by upper-level management, and employees at any level and do commit white-collar crime. You’ve fallen prey to the myth that it’s just a thing for upper-level management.
Low-level employees, including sales professionals, cashiers, customer service reps, etc. and even unemployed cyber scammers commit white-collar crime.
“Yet you want to make a mountain out of that 3.8% and a molehill out of the other 96.2%.”
First, it’s not 3.8% any more. That figure comes from 1997-99, but white collar crime, especially credit card fraud and other cyber scams, has skyrocketed since then, while overall crime has decreased. And, most cyber crimes, which are also white-collar crimes, still go UNREPORTED.
Second, it’s not about white-collar crime, it’s about your DOUBLE STANDARD. You won’t say that its OK to discriminate against white males in the workplace, but it’s somehow OK for banks to discriminate against black business owners, despite the molehill of 5 to 6% of them had histories of bankruptcies.
Third, it is a big deal b/c survey I linked showed most Americans believe white-collar crime heavily impacts the economy. And it affects about 24% of all American households each year.
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@Origin
@Sondis
I agree with you both. I’m tired of it. We have given them MULTIPLE chances to speak and they fail, time AND time again. Stumbling all over the place, pointing fingers and always wanting a pasty for their wrong doings. I’m just done. It’s 2013 and it feels like nothing has changed. It’s like we’re going back in time.
“Race” crimes
Don Lemon
Obama
Trayvon Martin
Troy Davis
Voting Rights Act
Miley Cyrus
50th Anniversary MLK March
Gentrification
Discrimination in schools and workplaces.
They have FAILED AGAIN to ALL these categories. They screamed from the mountain tops about they never get to say “their” story with us. We have been kind to let them speak and what to we get? “Lazy, Dumb, Selfish and ignorant” comes from their mouths, with no shame or guilt.
I’m just tired of it all. This “melting pot” dream is nothing but for uncle toms and dummies to go to sleep to. Heck, even the tiresome “MLK” has lost the mark to them. It is time we do things OUR way. No sitting around, no holding their hands, NOTHING. WE gave them books, classes, seminars, discussions, the moon and the stars. We practically given them maps to find the answers and they STILL don’t know! I’m done, black people should be like the Black Panthers and handle their own business, because see how they’re “fixing” Detroit, Chicago, Baltimore, New York. Nothing but a load of rubbish. Even this guy in this article, he was told OVER AND OVER about our experience, he didn’t believe us until that color changed. And as soon as he was getting those hits. “MAMA……MAMA! *runs crying home with pants down*”. LOL, I can’t right now. Yes, pop all that junk, but you will NEVER what to switch places though, huh?
Now they are SOME, that get the program. But that’s just the thing “Some”. They, I do appreciate to the fullest, but them sitting on the sidelines and not checking these idiots will not solve anything. THEY better hurry up and do something, because if not they will face the doom their lesser counterpart will face.
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I did not get my numbers from any website, if you put in hate groups on your web browser you will be able to see that all of the hate groups are white based…Da, no matter what anybody says or any resource we give to prove our post you are going to disclaim them, that is a sign of paranoia and bias, typical.
Your comment about low IQ causing poverty is ludicrous, it’s the other way around and for every study you find stating that I can find 10 that say the opposite. This is just another way for another white person to escape any culpability that whites have regarding minorities and how they have been treated over the last 500 years….Chinese railroad slaves (shanghai is not a made up word, whites kidnapped Chinese and made them work and kept them hostage), black slaves, Native Americans, Mexicans, women, the white man unfortunately has committed more atrocities against mankind and nature than any other race on the face of this Earth over the last 1,000 yrs…Now before you get all defensive and start making false statements and ludicrous comments again let me say that most white men are good human beings just like most black men and most Hispanic men are all good human beings. However money and power corrupt absolutely, it is not a theory but a known fact. White men over the last 1,000 years have had all the money and all the power and because of this they have committed some pretty horrible atrocities against the Earth and it’s people. I do not hate my race, in fact I love my race, the human race. I also love my white race but I will not discount or deny the mistakes we have made or the deny the people we have hurt their right to equality and their right to heal, whether it takes 200 years or 1000 years, it’s not my place to tell someone how they should feel about being a slave, being a victim of racism, being ignored or discriminated by the government, etc, instead I would rather ask them how they feel and learn from that, listen to them and whether i believe they should or should not feel a certain way I am not going to tell them that because I could never feel what they feel, even if I change the color of my skin it is still not the same, so any white mans comments about a black man and how they should act or feel is just plainly based out of pure IGNORANCE…I just don’t ignore our countries and our races monstrous actions but I also applaud all the great things our country does as well. I thought that going into Kuwait and kicking out Saddam was a perfect action and I thought G. Bush Sr. acted humanly and did a great job as president, I thought it was fantastic that my country elected a Black president, I think it’s marvelous that our country gives more money and charity to the rest of the world than any other and so on….I like to think as my self as a realist…and not someone who allows emotion and tunnel vision to obstruct true understanding and tolerance.
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Thank you resw77…
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@resw77
Thanks for adding perspective. I am just doing some fun sparring with @Jokah
@Da Jokah
Once you get into the IQ conversation, I know I can’ t take you seriously.
IQ Test were created as a staple for eugenics aka genocide. Which is illegal btw. They are Human Right Violations.
I looked up Abagond old posts on IQ. There were too many discrepancies. And Africans immigrant who come to America outperformed every academically in 2007
Also in Scotland, Africans outperformed everybody. They hold the highest form of education in that country.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/02/18876/32944
But I see you are playing games, being purposely obtuse again.
You cannot pee on my leg & tell me it is raining.
You cannot subjugate a group of people. Deprive them of basic necessities. And just say, well, how come blacks can’t pull it together. They are just inferior.
Again I direct you to the Appalachian mountain of Kentucky where poor whites are struggling day to day.
Do they have low IQ?
Why they cannot pull it together, are they not white?
Anytime there is little to no resources & basic necessities to sustain a group of people. There will be violence. Basic sociology.
Let us not play games.
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@Sondis…Even though I understand what you are saying and I agree with your wanting to be independent of whites, hell I would feel the same way I believe but I would hate to see that happen. I believe that human beings are better the more we work, live and love together. I would hate to see the racist whites of this country get what they want. Besides I don’t want you guys to leave me alone with these moth%# fuc^$#….lol.
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Thank you Adonis for responding to Da’s remarks with eloquence and with obvious intellectual superiority. My post lack such eloquence but I think you all can decipher what I am trying to say in most of my comments…Thanks for putting him in his place….I knew he was acting enormously childish when he claimed to know which article I got my hate groups data from, little did he know I did my own data retrieval by using the internet and asking simple questions like, “White hate groups” and then putting in “Black hate groups”….Black hate groups just do not exist but almost every hate group in this country is white based hating one or several races and/or the government for allowing so many races in this country. You would think that with that type of thinking there would be more Native American hate groups than any other…These are people that share my race that really piss me off and embarrass me to no end…they make me embarrassed to have this skin color….Maybe I should get some of those liver pills…
Here is a great site focused on fighting hate and hate groups. This site will identify all the hate groups and where they are…check it out Jokah!… http://www.splcenter.org/who-we-are
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William Bentley:
“@Sondis…Even though I understand what you are saying and I agree with your wanting to be independent of whites, hell I would feel the same way I believe but I would hate to see that happen. I believe that human beings are better the more we work, live and love together. I would hate to see the racist whites of this country get what they want. Besides I don’t want you guys to leave me alone with these moth%# fuc^$#….lol.”
Your sentiment is well meaning but the fact that you as a white man, aren’t effected by the issues that blacks and other minorities, face every day of our lives. So you being, “left alone with those racist” won’t leave you any less for ware.
Its been over 40 years since the civil rights movement, nothing has changed in the grand scheme of things and if you think being able to eat at a restaurant with white people, sitting in front of a city bus,being able to vote is the only thing that black people want as progress, you have another thing coming.
I find it ridiculous, that white people use those things as a measuring stick on how far, black people have come, instead of what they should be using, which is income and home equality, 14% unemployment rate among black people, double that of whites.
Prison industrial complex, via mass incarceration of black men, unequal justice system for blacks and other minorities, poverty, health,education, hiring discrimination in the work place.
These are the things that i am concerned about, when talking about progress of black people in America.
The right to vote, protest peacefully, not being beaten by police and arrested for no reason, earn a decent wage to take care ones family, as a black man, to be able to run for the president as the unites states of America as an American citizen is my RIGHT, not something i should have to fight for and when i get those rights, after needing to fight for it, WHITE PEOPLE TELL ME, HOW FAR MY RACE HAS COME TO FIGHT FOR SOMETHING, I HAD A RIGHT TO IN THE FIRST PLACE!
White people would have black people to feel, grateful or content with these supposed, “gains” that we have attained over 40 years ago, spare me!
White people always talk about these gains but not all the other things, that would bring about, equality among black people in America.
Not only has black people’s plight in America hasn’t changed, white people’s attitude, toward black people hasn’t changed, until their attitude changes, our plight won’t.
That is why i am a firm believer in desegregation from white people, because in all this time, nothing has changed in the grand scheme of things, that would bring about significant change that would effect the masses of black people in this country in a positive way, like the mass effect of institutional racism and white supremacy that effects black people in a negative way.
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https://www.change.org/petitions/ohio-parole-board-and-governor-kasich-free-tyra-patterson#share
Please sign petition, people. ^_^
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Drosera please don’t give up hope, I used to think I was one of only a few but since the 2012 election I have met hundreds, possibly thousands of white Liberals on facebook, Liberal Christian sites, etc…I have gotten into so many discussions about Trayvon Martin and had so many white men and women come to my defense or join me in my protest…It really brought me out of my hopeless depression and made me feel much better about my race. The whites out there that are acting arrogant and racist mostly do it out of fear. Fear of what they don’t know or fear of some false reality they’ve created in their own minds watching TV…Of course there are those who are just plain stupid and/or racist but there is little hope for people like that, it was up to their parents to break the chain of hate and unfortunately they didn’t. I know my understanding or positive change again is a privilege I get from being white and your understanding comes at a much higher cost and difficulty but if possible I pray that it happens. Remember guys that Barrack got 40% of the white vote in 2012, that means a lot to me because it supports my opinion about race over the last 40 years, that it is getting better and as long as we keep fighting those who would like to regress to a less tolerant and vile period, we will continue to progress….God Bless.
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Sondis…I don’t think the people of my generation have changed all that much but I do think that the younger generations are changing. Yes, I never would celebrate a victory as mundane as being able to eat in a restaurant or piss in a toilet and I have been fighting with conservatives constantly about the inequality in this country but they seem to think it is all about IQ or that Blacks have all the opportunity that anyone else have and it’s their own fault. However even I as a white guy know that to be untrue, I’ve seen it, I’ve heard it and I’ve lived it. Your point makes sense and like I said I can’t be certain how I would feel but I think that if I were a black man I would probably feel the same way, I just don’t want that to happen…Of course the don’t leave me with those MoFos, was just a joke and I know that I will be fine…I have always known that I have a huge advantage being a white person in this country…My real Dad told me that growing up, I don’t say it enough but my Dad instilled nothing but kindness and wisdom in my brother and I, he is a pretty awesome guy!…He has no money but he has a huge human spirit and every year I realize how much he has taught me about being a human being!
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sondis: I signed the petition.
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Mary burrell:
Thank you friend. ^_^
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@ William Bentley: I appreciate you sir.
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resw77
You won’t say that its OK to discriminate against white males in the workplace
On the contrary, I think businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone they want. If they want to discriminate against blacks then good, If they want to discriminate against whites then that’s fine, too. If it’s a bad decision it will cost them money. If it costs them enough money they’ll go bankrupt. Problem solved.
Also, I noticed you failed to prove a source for the data on the race of white collar offenders.
”
Adonis
Also in Scotland, Africans outperformed everybody. They hold the highest form of education in that country.
That’s because it’s mostly upper class professionals immigrating i.e. doctors, engineers, etc. Think about it. If you’re an educated African the smartest thing you can do is get the hell out. You see the same thing with foreigners living in Japan. Japan has an average IQ of about 105. Yet the average foreigner living there is higher even though the countries they come from are lower.
Again I direct you to the Appalachian mountain of Kentucky where poor whites are struggling day to day. Do they have low IQ?
Yes. The average white IQ in Appalachia is about 93. The isolated geography makes it economically disadvantaged. As a result, smart people leave and the average IQ is lower.
Anytime there is little to no resources & basic necessities to sustain a group of people. There will be violence. Basic sociology.
Appalachia has a higher rate of violence than middle class whites. But still much lower than the black average.
”
Sondis
Its been over 40 years since the civil rights movement, nothing has changed in the grand scheme of things
Passing a law won’t making someone smarter.
”
Mr Bentley
I knew he was acting enormously childish when he claimed to know which article I got my hate groups data from
Who do you think you’re kidding? I know where you got the number.
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@Da Jokah
“On the contrary, I think businesses should be allowed to discriminate against anyone they want…If they want to discriminate against whites then that’s fine, too. ”
There. It took that long for you to apply the same standard to white males (well, almost). But I think it’s much more logical to judge each person on an individual, case-by-case basis than to use race as a factor. I
“Also, I noticed you failed to prove a source for the data on the race of white collar offenders.”
No. You conveniently overlooked it. That was the first link I provided ^^
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If anyone wants to physically count the number of hate groups in this country just google hate groups in America and you can come up with your own numbers….I already did it but don’t take my word for it count them yourself and that way no one can dispute your numbers. I stopped at the number 100 and found that 90% were white and less than 1% were black and if anyone saw those numbers on a website or some article then my little experiment was pretty damn accurate then….
@Mary Burell, thank you sweetheart that makes me feel good. I do carry a degree of guilt for being white. I feel guilty that my race has and still does some horrible things to people and this planet. I feel guilty that why I can basically do almost nothing and still be more successful than a mother of four living in the inner city working 80 hours a week, living in a high crime neighborhood, making less than poverty wages and then when she thinks she has had as much as she can take some of the most powerful and wealthiest men in the world tell the country that she has a safety net and is fine or that she wants something for nothing, she is living off the system, etc…These attitudes and human less beliefs are what leave me pissed off and wondering how a person with obvious intelligence can come to such blind conclusions about people, the people we should be most concerned about than any other group of Americans. If politicians aren’t elected to help our most needy then what the hell do we need them for, I don’t need help, the wealthy don’t need their help, it’s the poor and the sick and the disenfranchised our government should be concentrating on the most, bring them up by lending them a hand so they can be productive and self serving citizens. The more people who are productive citizens the more taxes will be paid, the more money big business will make, the more jobs will be created and more importantly the less sick and starving children we will have. We will have happy, healthy, harmonious people and our country will be the most tightly knit group of people in the history of mankind, all for one and one for all!!! ….I always go off on some rant but to get back to my original comment…Thank you Mary!
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IMO, this country is going to go in the same way it came. My only concern, for my own people, is undue attachment to the house of bondage. There is not a single day you or your ancestors have been free in this wretched place. The appearance of improvement only crystallized from a reduction in temperature. We may have had a break from the worst most degrading treatment but it’s still hot enough to burn not to mention that the knob still works. Recall that the resurgence of white supremacist groups and establishment of Jim Crow was a direct response to Reconstruction-era economic and political progress by Southern blacks. Recall that the sight of black people in need brought out the worst in Katrina-victims’ white neighbours; many black people who fled the rising waters were shot. Also, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, the number of “Patriot groups” and armed militias has grown 813% since Obama’s election.
I’m not saying this to cause fear or to sound like a pessimist. I just think it’s important to be aware of the nature of this beast despite constant propaganda. Otherwise it’s like playing chess with the opponent’s side of the board covered. The freedom we’ve earned is the freedom to be endlessly indebted consumers of quickly obsolete junk. That freedom is slavery by a new name. But we haven’t earned the real freedom to walk home with snacks without being hunted and ‘justifiably’ shot to death.
This is the time for our mind to be oriented towards true liberation. Otherwise, when the house of bondage comes crashing down we’ll slack-handedly weep for it rather than pee and s**t on it and plant a tree in its place.
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Sorry everyone, I have a long response this time. But I hope you will go through it and bear with me.
@DJ
Sometimes I don’t know if you really believe in the assertions you are making or if you are making assertions (however spurious) just to stir stuff up. In any case, we cannot allow you to keep on spewing forth inaccurate information. Or in other cases, grab a statistic that might have some accuracy to it and then completely misuse it to prove a point. Solesearch tried to remind you of a couple of things, but you just tossed it out the window with some things like (“I don’t agree with the law”.)
Some examples:
Your response to Sondis
We do use risk classification factors to evaluate suitability for matters such as credit and insurance. The purpose is to
– properly assign costs to appropriate risk classification factors to estimate the cost to provide credit or insurance (eg, charge smokers more for term life insurance)
– minimize the phenomenon of “adverse selection” whereby individuals select insurance or credit terms to their advantage to profit from the relationship (eg, aids patient buying life insurance)
– minimize the problem of “moral hazard”, whereby an individual may exacerbate his risk factor to profit from the arrangement (eg, after a homeowner discovers that the foundation of his house is likely to fall into a sinkhole, for which he is not insured, he decides to burn his house down to collect fire insurance)
But, you have NOT done this by asserting that “blacks are a bad risk”. There are 2 issues here
– whether something can viably be used as a risk classification factor
– whether something that can legally be used as a risk classification factor
In the first case, we have to determine if there is a sufficient causal relationship (and NOT just mere correlation) between the classification factor and the risk it poses. We could theoretically select any characteristic to be a risk classification factor, but that does not mean that it is reasonable to do so.
For example, suppose we plan to lend mortgages to homeowners in Cicero, IL. We gather data on where Cicero homeowners previously went to high school. We found that 40% who went in Cicero, but 30% who went to High School in Oak Park. We also find that 50% of the ones who went to high school in Cicero were late on their mortgage payments, but only 25% of the ones who went to high school in Oak Park. We could then decide that we use a risk classification factor according to where someone went to high school, and statistically, it might provide a correlation to the mortgage lending risk. However, unless Oak Park High School specifically provided courses in its curriculum discussing how to manage mortgage lending risk, it is entirely spurious to assign where someone went to high school as a risk factor. Likewise, unless you can demonstrate that there is a causal relationship between the quantum of African ancestry an individual has or whether the individual’s parents socially identified as African-American AND mortgage lending risk, then you have just performed a spurious risk classification assignment based on alleged correlation alone.
Now, someone who has been diagnosed and certified to have late stage renal carcinoma with a 5% survival rate beyond 6 months would be a viable risk. If he buys life insurance without being assigned the appropriate risk classification, he has engaged in adverse selection.
Can you please explain how a black person applying for a mortgage loan is engaging in adverse selection?
In the 2nd case, Solesearch already gave you a reference that risk classification based on matters of race has been illegal since the Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974. There has never been a demonstrable causal effect between one’s racial identity and his creditworthiness. If you disagree with the law, take it up with your congressman.
Your response to Sondis
The high rate of home foreclosures is more related to the high rate of predatory lending engaged in by lending institutions. It is unscrupulous business practice to target blacks for predatory lending, then penalize them by denying them loans on fair and equitable terms on that basis of previously offering loans to blacks on unreasonable terms (that they can profit from).
Your response to sondis
Admittedly, many financial institutions are indeed slimeballs. Predatory lending is one of their slimeball practices.
But you are actually contradicting yourself. You are saying that banks are slimeballs and don’t just target “race” as a factor to play slimeball. But then you heavily support the (“slimeball”) use of race as a risk classification factor. You can’t have it both ways.
Your response to resw77
Wrong. It is illegal discrimination to indicate race, color, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, or age or whether their income source is derived from public assistance as a demographic characteristic on which to assign persons to risk classification system. The reason is because no causal relationship has been established and it violates the basic principle of risk classification. So assigning risk based on the behavior of others in any arbitrary demographic characteristics must meet the basic test of risk classification. “Race”, “national origin”, etc. do not.
Now, we *may* argue that sex should be risk classifier because in most societies, women live longer than men. There is large scientific support for that assertion. Indeed, actuaries still use sex as a classification factor in estimating the costs of large pension systems or group insurance systems where the cost is NOT assigned to any individual. However, they may not use it to sell products such as individual life insurance, individual life annuities, to commute a pension to a lump sum, etc. as that would be considered to be illegally discriminatory.
Your response to resw77
True, but race is not, and cannot be one of the factors. It violates the fundamental principle of risk classification and is illegal.
@Solesearch
All I can say is BRAVO. It is this interplay which causes me to ask if DJ is serious or if he is simply try to screw around.
Your response to Solesearch
The law’s function has nothing to do with legislating risk out of existence. The purpose is to make sure that financial institutions do not invent spurious race classification factors., or base factors on discriminatory factors that are now illegal. Another factor which may be added in the future is sexual orientation – no financial institution should be able to demonstrate a causative risk factor between sexual orientation and creditworthiness.
@Solesearch
It is frustrating trying to discuss matters with a blockhead. (Sorry, that was an ad hominem. I meant to say someone who employs spurious logic and reasoning.) 😛
Your response to Linda
Yes. I am a certified actuary and I will also tell that to your face. But, I will also tell you to your face what factors are permitted to be used as risk classification. Race is NOT one of them.
Your response to me:
If individualized risk assessments consider all the individualized risks and blacks still file bankruptcy and foreclosure at higher rates than asians, hispanics, whites and other than there is a higher risk associated with being black. . Sorry, NO. We have already told why this is NOT permitted.
Your response to resw77
Yes, true. But it has been demonstrated that race is NOT an appropriate risk factor to use, and is illegal to boot. Now, pre-existing conditions are no longer permitted to be a risk classification factor to deny anyone health insurance. Even if a risk classification factor might be exploited to allow a financial institution to make more profit in the short term, it should never be used to disenfranchise individual civil rights. But that is a moral or political argument.
WOW. OK. Then, in that case, even more reason why the government needs to make sure that no citizen is deprived of basic welfare, eg, education, health care, housing, old age pension, public security, etc. We can’t leave this up solely to the private sector or market forces.
***********************************************************************
Occasionally, there are elements of truth to what you say. But you cherry pick them and then misapply them to give all sorts of justification for racially discriminatory behaviour and practices. Moreover, it is illegal. There is a reason why it is illegal. If you have a problem with the law, please write your congressman and ask him to introduce a bill to repeal the ECOA.
Banks and insurance companies have tried for decades to devise ways to circumvent the law. They have even gotten Congress to approve of some dodgy practices. It doesn’t mean that it is the right thing to do. I am one of the ones who believe that the use of pre-existing conditions to deny health insurance to individuals is a prime example of why the private health insurance market does not function properly. It leads to socially undesirable results.
I am a certified actuary and also used to work as the statistician for the finance dept of a large public hospital system in New York City. I probably should have become an activist for risk classification practices (but I later decided to become an activist for something else.) 😛
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@jefe….:)
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@Sondis
I signed as well. 🙂
@William
Thx, I’m just tired of the frustration. Like I said before, I do appreciate to the fullest that you are here and trying with the rest of us. Just wish the world would get with the program.
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My expectation/hope for transformation is gone. Certain things have been a constant and I don’t see them changing due to a global change of heart among whites. Only when white people are content to cease to exist as such will they not see race. Ask all the ‘nice white people’ if they want all their great-grandchildren to have brown skin like Malia and Sasha Obama. If not they’ll have to remain separate and as they do so they’ll want all the best living conditions for themselves and their progeny. It may sound stark but I have accepted this. I didn’t become uninterested in ‘integration’ out of hatred. I just realized it would never happen. We more easily buy into the idea but it’s just an ideal that is placed there for you to spin your wheels trying to achieve it white whites are busy consolidating under your nose. The ‘conscious’ whites have a slogan: ‘assimilation is genocide’.
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@jefe
I just got a little smarter reading your post
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@William Bentley
I feel you and your concern.
I have to stand with @Sondis. I prefer white people to focus on their own problem.
I told @xPraetorious who is your polar opposite. You will have your hands full combating poverty, meth & molestation in the white community, and forget for a moment that black people exist.
Our problem is that we don’t economically & financially pull rank in America & on a global level.
You start hurting whites, Koreans & Arabs in their pockets, because we look out for other races of people financially & they don’t return the favor.
You start hurting people’s pocket, our issues will get solved, Quick, fast & in a hurry.
So, again, your concern is appreciate but, black people have to conjure up that Civil Rights resolve & remind people who we are.
Goodnight
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@Adonis,
What is your recommendation for people like Tim Wise who have made a career by being a white anti-racist?
Since white people tend to listen to other white people, we still all need at least some white people to echo or amplify the anti-racist messages. In fact, we cannot deny that there was not some boost in the 1950s and 1960s from the white anti-racists at that time. It is no accident that almost half the freedom riders were white, or that white people were killed trying to enforce voting rights. We cannot deny the contribution of white abolitionists during ante-bellum slavery period.
The problem hurts all of America and it is not purely a black civil rights issue or a problem that can be solved only by blacks working together and excluding others.
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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Thanks everyone…good night!
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OK, Kiwi, I hear you, or at least I think I do.
But that is like saying that white supremacists do not need rented negroes. Both white anti-racists and rented negroes help give credibility to the respective positions.
It would be nice to say we don’t need them, and maybe in fact, we don’t solely need them, but a few sprinkled here and there don’t hurt. And one more thing. If you believe that black people should rely only on other black people to fight for their civil rights disenfranchisement, then . . . what are you doing here?
The partial answer is that there is still some mutual self-interest to work together. And although I am not in favor of the white benevolent paternalism inherent in society, even in white liberals, I do believe that there may be some mutual self-interest even with white anti-racists beyond patting themselves on the back.
Or do you believe white anti-racists have everything to lose (eg, white privilege) and nothing to gain besides self-congratulation?
Yes, we should acknowledge non-white anti-racists more but I can’t believe it will help to toss the white anti-racists out the window.
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@jefe
Anything white people do positively on the behalf of black people is a welcomed bonus.
I want to make a million dollars, I end up making a million and a half.
That half is a welcomed bonus. But I would be cool if that half never came.
goodnight
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@Abagond
Nat Turner Movie
This is wild. NSFW
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Correction: That was a trailer
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jefe
That was a long comment. You repeatedly alternated between quoting me, quoting someone else disagreeing with me and then agreeing with them disagreeing with me. Okay. You’re entitled to your opinion. Basically, the quotes (and you) repeated the same arguments. I won’t add anything in response to those portions because nothing has changed.
I will, however, address a couple of your new points.
The law’s function has nothing to do with legislating risk out of existence.
Laws are made by politicians. Politicians are probably the least qualified to assess risk. Not only are they untrained but, even if they were, they would act on the basis of political expediency. Of course, they can’t literally “legislate risk out of existence.” They can, however, shift the burden for that risk to others. In doing so they distort the market.
I am a certified actuary and I will also tell that to your face.
Appealing to your own authority? Actually, I’ll give that a lot of weight. I won’t try to match actuarial wits with you. It’s not my field. However, you compromised your own credibility when you said…
Now, pre-existing conditions are no longer permitted to be a risk classification factor to deny anyone health insurance. Even if a risk classification factor might be exploited to allow a financial institution to make more profit in the short term, it should never be used to disenfranchise individual civil rights. But that is a moral or political argument.
I think you’re very biased when it comes to fairness. Only I think your definition of fairness is much different than mine. I think you feel everyone should start out more or less equally and end up more or less equally. I don’t. If people start out or end up behind the 8-Ball then so be it.
Prejudice? Discrimination? People are entitled to their opinion. People should be allowed to do whatever they want provided it’s voluntary. No one should be forced to do anything including by the government. That’s where we really differ. You have your opinion of what’s moral. It wasn’t written in the stars. It wasn’t discovered by science. It simply appeals to your own psychology. And you want to use the power of government to impose your morality on others. I don’t agree with that.
“It violates the fundamental principle of risk classification and is illegal.”
Illegal? I won’t dispute that. But it used to be a capital crime to pick up sticks on the Sabbath. The law is an ass.
Fundamental principle of risk classification? Are you telling me that actuaries have wrung all the risk out of race? That every last drop of risk has been individualized? I doubt that. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be any difference in bankruptcy and foreclosure rates. I know you’ll say it’s “predatory lending” but I doubt that, too. It’s a result of those who share your morality. People didn’t like the “gap” in home ownership, etc so regulators imposed de facto quotas on lenders. This forced lenders to approve riskier applicants to close the gap. When you make riskier loans you have higher default rates.
Let’s try a different angle. Let’s suppose “equally qualified” blacks really were getting a raw deal from lenders. So what? Why should the government get involved? Before you answer consider what happens if they don’t. Some lender would recognize the business opportunity, specialize in making loans to blacks and make more money. As other lenders saw how much money they were making they would scramble to make more loans to blacks, too. The market would stabilize at a fair rate.
A fair rate doesn’t necessarily mean an equal rate. Who said equal is fair? Maybe an “equal rate” is really unfair? Why should the cost for that risk be transferred from a higher risk group to a lower risk group? Shouldn’t the higher risk group pay a penalty for being higher risk? Isn’t higher cost an incentive to tak actioins to lower their risk?
You’re an actuary. If you really think blacks are getting a raw deal why don’t you get together with some “anti racist” venture capitalists, start your own lending company to cater to the under served black community and rake in those windfall profits? Don’t you believe blacks are getting a raw deal? Or is it that your psychology simply disagrees with inequality even when it’s based on legitimate risk? I think you oppose racialized risk for the same reason you oppose pre-existing conditions. You may not recognize it as consciously as you do with pre-existing conditions. But it’s the same psychology at work.
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OK, 2 points
Nope, never said or implied that. Of course that is not possible.
Fair enough retort.
I think I qualified that when I talked about classification according to sex. Actuaries generally feel that it is an acceptable risk classification factor, esp. since the mortality risk associated with sex has been demonstrated to be highly correlated even when taking other factors into account. And indeed, they do apply it to estimate the costs in an aggregate system, esp. one where someone other than the beneficiary is funding it (eg, group pension or group insurance or social insurance systems). It is not an acceptable risk classification when charging for or selling products to an individual, because it is discriminatory.
When insurance companies operate for profit, they would want to use any risk classification system that will help them get an edge, or to price products to take advantage of differentiation in risk (even pre-existing conditions). However, in the end, it is not always efficient. In the USA, it is definitely not efficient for health care. With individual insurance companies looking to maximize their profits and passing the costs to other parties, more is spent on a system which produces an unhealthy population. A social insurance or single payor system will pool those risks together. An actuary is still needed to estimate the costs, but risks are pooled in ways that are both socially acceptable, and in the aggregate, more efficient. Designating a population subset as risky and eliminating them from a pool controls the risks for the insurer, but does not eliminate their costs or risks from society. It merely transfers them to others.
I really got turned off working for a hospital. They classified patients by payor and then arranged diagnoses to maximize revenue. It leads to unethical behavior.
In my prior job I was challenged about using certain mortality tables sometimes. I had to argue why some mortality tables were inappropriate. Some clients asked me to do things that were simply wrong. I could always justify my use of any risk factor table.
As I said, it is possible to designate anything as a risk classification factor, eg, where an individual went to high school. Many of those factors may be legal. They might have statistical correlation viability, but it does not mean that they can or should be used as a risk classification factor.
Before the 1970s, there were different insurance rates charged to blacks and whites — there were even different mortality tables. I am sure they did statistical studies to validate having different tables. But those studies would have never been able to identify a causal relationship of the risk with the actual quantum of African ancestry or social racial identity of the individual’s parents. Blacks might have had higher mortality because they were poorer, were refused medical care in hospitals or got lynched more often. There was never any evidence that it specifically had something to do with being black.
Likewise, there is no evidence that being black per se would increase one’s credit risk. Having a steady employment history or a history of paying bills on time might be more relevant. Even if a statistical correlation could be found with race, it would not be legal to apply it. There are reasons why it is illegal. You seem to imply that it is due to uninformed or unqualified politicians. There are reasons why some risk classification factors are not satisfactory, even if they would prove profitable to an insurer or lender.
But you are right about it being a political or moral issue. Is it fair to discriminate against smokers, and not against black people? Well, 2 things to keep in mind:
– Smoking is a lifestyle choice; being black is not.
– Smoking is not only correlated with higher health and mortality risk, there are demonstrated biological effects due to smoking (eg, causing the growth or formation of cancer). Being black might be correlated with higher credit risk, but how could we possibly demonstrate that being black per se LEADS one to having higher credit risk. Can a black person choose, for example, to be white or Asian and thus lower his credit risk? There are still thousands of people who cross the line from black into white every year. Why not, if you can get a better mortgage? Asians, esp. those of East Asian descent, have longer life expectancy than whites. Should they be charged less for life insurance than whites?
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@ Everyone: Why do you respond to Da Jokah, who I suspect is Church’s Chicken? Why continue to throw pearls to swine. He will refute/rebut everything that is presented to him. This seems like such a huge waste of time and energy. I don’t know if he really believe all the excrement he is spewing forth, but I just would not give him the time of day. Although, I am probably contradicting myself, typing a post. He is a racist and a troll.
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For what it’s worth, Da Jokah’s and Churchs’s IP addresses are nowhere near other. They are not even in the same time zone.
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@ Yeah, ok, But he’s still a racist troll.
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@MB
Yes, he does.
Indeed it so seems.
And a self-professed one as well. But he’s not exactly a moron. He makes a point that if the market forces cause the practice of institutionalized racism to proliferate, then so be it. The govt shouldn’t get involved. Market forces create the black ghetto and the resulting disenfranchisement. The govt should just let it happen. If the “market” wants to create glass and bamboo ceilings, then that is how it should be.
The thing is, market forces are not always efficient nor produce satisfactory outcomes. And the “market” is not really the market, but a small number of people who benefit from the “system”.
Just realize that if I reply about him, it is not because he is my audience. 😛
Anyhow, about Joshua Solomon, I do agree with him when he says the educational system needs to change.
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@Kiwi….So if I hear you right, as a white man I am damned if I do and damned if I don’t so to speak. It seems that your thoughts have gone astray and have misinterpreted simple acts of wanting to be part of the solution for further attempts at control. I don’t believe any of us white Liberals want to have Blacks tethered to us by some sense of gratitude or emotional debt, thats the last thing I want. If anything I believe we want to follow your lead, you let us know what we can do or not do to help. We acknowledge that your race has been horribly treated by our race and our government and we do as much as we can with our votes. I believe we feel guilty and embarrassed by the actions of our forefathers and by present day racist and if we say or do something wrong or offensive it’s usually out of pure stupidity or ignorance but not for lack of zeal, we simply do not know what is or what is not offensive and basically just want you to know that we don’t feel the same way that other whites feel and we want to change. After all we want to help and attempt to understand as best we can but the reality is that we will never be able to fully understand what it is like to be you. It’s us who have to change not you, we were the ones who were wrong, not you..
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I am with you Mary, I just decided that until he is willing to join the human race that I am no longer going to engage him…
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@jefe: You make valid points, you are always the voice of reason, you are always a gentleman. But he is still a jerk.
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@ William Bentley: I appreciate your candor sir.
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@ William Bentley: Kiwi is Asian, not African American.
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Has a black ventriloquist ever tried to let a white doll, say professor Bianca White lecture the public about “The Negro and What To Do When One Is Encountered”?
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Well, the least I can say is I did learn a little something from the discourse between the two of you.
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@jefe: Refer to above comments^^^^^^^
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@ Jefe
Your comment on risk was long but awesome. Thank you!
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One of my points was to indicate how redlining can be used to circumvent the ECOA, much as racial steering and predatory lending (a form of reverse redlining) can be used to circumvent the FHA. Redlining might not be according to race per se, but according to another factor which is highly correlated with race (eg, neighborhoods) or where they go shopping (ie, at shops which have a “high risk” clientele), or where they go to university (in the case of student loans).
We should have some posts on these topics. I think redlining is one of the obstacles to creating more black entrepreneurship and making college more affordable.
It is funny how I can remember seeing all those public service announcements when I was a child (ie, NOBODY may discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, or age, etc.). But since the 1980s, seems like people forgot (and the others took advantage of that forgetfulness).
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Wow, now this White man knows how it feels to be discriminated against when turning himself into a Black man for a day. It is hard to be a Black person in this White dominated society and not feel worn down or depressed by the System. I am sick of them telling us to get over it when you tell them incidents of racism. These Neanderthals don’t know how it is like to be discriminated against or face with racism so why do they always tell us to get over it?
Honestly I wish these delusional Whites can walk in our shoes for a day and then come back in their pale, ugly skin with blue veins popping and see how they think of our experience!
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@Da Jokah
I am glad you are conceding left & right over here.
Again I direct you to the Appalachian mountain of Kentucky where poor whites are struggling day to day. Do they have low IQ?
Yes. The average white IQ in Appalachia is about 93. The isolated geography makes it economically disadvantaged. As a result, smart people leave and the average IQ is lower.
Anytime there is little to no resources & basic necessities to sustain a group of people. There will be violence. Basic sociology.
Appalachia has a higher rate of violence than middle class whites. But still much lower than the black average.
I love how you basically confirmed my argument.
You were able to give a reason, not an excuse for why appalachian whites in Kentucky are struggling.
And blacks all over this country are undermine by whites & their watchdogs 10x harder than they are. But for some reason, those reasons are not valid.
And again, you leave out the fact that appalachian whites don’t have a racial problem. There violence would get much worse if they cut off welfare & made it impossible to get a job.
Good day @Da Jokah.
We still don’t know who is paying you or who your Meth dealer is.
Those are the real heroes.
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I love how you basically confirmed my argument.
You were able to give a reason, not an excuse for why appalachian whites in Kentucky are struggling.
And blacks all over this country are undermine by whites & their watchdogs 10x harder than they are. But for some reason, those reasons are not valid.
And again, you leave out the fact that appalachian whites don’t have a racial problem. There violence would get much worse if they cut off welfare & made it impossible to get a job.
Good day @Da Jokah.
We still don’t know who is paying you or who your Meth dealer is.
Those are the real heroes.
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OMG, Da Jokah is just a dang troll looking for kicks, I wouldn’t take him seriously.
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jefe
He makes a point that if the market forces cause the practice of institutionalized racism to proliferate, then so be it. The govt shouldn’t get involved.
That’s only half my point. The other half is that the market is self correcting. If someone discriminates unreasonably it will cost them money. If it costs them enough money they’ll go out of business. Therefore, discrimination based on prejudice is limited. If significant disparities exist and persist it’s because they’re legitimate.
The thing is, market forces are not always efficient nor produce satisfactory outcomes. And the “market” is not really the market, but a small number of people who benefit from the “system”.
Do you think the government is always efficient and produces satisfactory results? If the market is controlled by a small number of people then who is the government controlled by? At least with the market you have some choice. With the government you have no choice. They pass laws and you’re punished for disobeying.
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Whites were important in the abolitionist and civil rights movement. That is mainly because most whites seem to lack basic empathy for black people. Just like Joshua Solomon: despite all his supposed black friends, he could not put himself in their shoes without PUTTING himself in their shoes. Even Langston Hughes was not enough for him. So white people NEED Harriet Beecher Stowe, John Brown, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner, Tim Wise and so on. Unfortunately.
The main value of white allies is not in helping blacks, especially not in some kind of “well-meaning” or white paternalistic way, but in helping fellow whites to understand what they and their country is about – because the culture has programmed them to death to turn a deaf ear. You see that in all the automatic racist defences that spring up in the comments here. That comes from their training as white people.
It is like when you join the army and they dehumanize the enemy. In the Vietnam War American soldiers were taught that the Vietnamese were “gooks” and “zips”. In the Philippine American War the enemy (former allies against Spain) were “niggers”.
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“The main value of white allies is not in helping blacks, especially not in some kind of “well-meaning” or white paternalistic way, but in helping fellow whites to understand what they and their country is about – because the culture has programmed them to death to turn a deaf ear. You see that in all the automatic racist defences that spring up in the comments here.”
*******
And it’s seen in Professor Derrick Bell’s FIVE LAWS OF RACIAL STANDING which summarily states that the words of black people aren’t to be believed – unless it’s exactly what whiteness thinks, or desires to hear.
Some things just don’t change!
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It is like when you join the army and they dehumanize the enemy.
Is that what this blog is about? Abagond’s Army — dehumanizing white people.
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@ Da Jokah
I am not trying brainwash anyone but rather the opposite, to fight the brainwashing they and I have been subjected to, a brainwashing that DOES dehumanize people.
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OK, DJ,
It seems like you adhere to a rather extreme position of political philosophy that is libertarian in a sort of anarchistic, individualistic way.
Let’s say that society needs to produce and provide goods, services, and individual liberties. We can classify as
1. Goods and services that the market provides well with little or no govt intervention
2. Good and services that the market provides, but requires govt oversight to be satisfactory, ranging from 2 extremes:
a) Basic rules and regulations will encourage self-correction in the market to produce satisfactory outcomes
b) Heavy-handed govt oversight is needed to provide the desired outcomes
3. Goods and Services that the market does not seem to provide on its own, or only with extremely undesirable outcomes.
By outcomes, we refer to social or environmental outcomes.
Now, it seems like you believe that the situation is something like 90% of goods and services fall into category 1, 5% in category 2a, 3% in category 2b and 2% in category 3.
For you, credit, incl. business and mortgage lending and health care fall mostly into category 1, or in an extreme case, category 2a. Currently it is actually mostly 2a, but also 2b. You already find this position to be too extreme.
For me, the distribution is probably closer to about 25% in each of 1, 2a, 2b and 3. The bank bailout shows me that 1 and 2a. do not work well with respect to credit lending, esp. for large investment banks – action 3 was needed to provide the “correction”. Maybe we need to move to 2b, at least for the bigger banks. Maybe local, small banks or credit unions would do well under scenario 2a. But most people seem to agree that category 3 is not ideal as the few people feel that the govt should be in the business of lending money and providing credit (but, alas, it does do that in the case of the bank bailout or also in the agricultural sector).
What is an undesirable social or environmental outcome? Who determines that? That is a good question and that is the source of most political debate.
In the case of credit, Congress decided that one of the undesirable outcomes is discrimination based on race, color, sex, national origin, source of income, etc. Congress was not in the business of making loans, but was in the business of determining what was a socially undesirable outcome. It seems like the market had trouble determining if that was a socially undesirable outcome on its own. So, the credit business might have been primarily category 1 with some category 2a. Now there is also a strong category 2b element to it to ensure it provides socially desirable outcomes.
Something like 25% of the USA had NO health insurance, and no coverage in case of catastrophic illness or injury. Is this a socially desired outcome? Is the market providing a socially desired outcome. We could say the same for education, old age pension, public security, fire protection, disaster relief, etc. If the market decided who and how people got educatated, probably half the population would never get to go to school.
Who decides who should have access to the sun, to clean potable water, to non-toxic land, to trees, plants and animals? The market?
Look at what market forces did to the United States. It allowed human trafficking from Africa and Asia, often as chattel and to the practice of trading human labour domestically as property for 250 years. There was no market correction to change this. In fact, to “correct” the cognitive dissonance of white people in the system, they had to reinterpret the Bible to condone slavery. Without govt intervening to decide satisfactory social outcomes, there would have been no market correction (ie, abolishment of slavery). Market forces also led to the genocide and democide of both Native Americans and Asians in the United States. In some cases, the govt did not intervene (or actually spurred on this “market force”) and caused outcomes that they still fail to admit were undesirable.
Who determines what is a satisfactory environmental outcome? I first went to Mainland China in 1984. then you could walk around Beijing and still see blue skies and breathe the air. In Nanjing I spent a whole afternoon bicycling around the city underneath the thick canopy of trees and fresh air. Today, I would even go outside, choking in the dust and particles. “Blue sky days” are very very rare now. The water is polluted and not potable (must be distilled). Food is loaded with toxic chemicals. Tell me, are the market forces providing environmentally desirable outcomes?
Does the market provide socially desirable outcomes? Just think of those hundreds of workers who died in the factory building collapse last year in Bangladesh manufacturing clothes for famous western brands.
Actually, there is an industry called Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) because there are some market forces which steer business to act responsibly. This CSR culture is particularly strong in places like Scandinavia and some companies find it is good for business.
BTW, in addition to being a certified actuary, I am also certified to conduct CSR social audits.
Anyhow, pure market forces, even with CSR objectives, do not solve the problem of “tragedy of the commons”. Because it is hard to regulate the sea, land and air, we have problems such as the collapse of the bluefin tuna population, or the decimation of whales or the extirpation of tigers in China and SE Asia. If one party follows the “law”, another will simply circumvent it and profit from it. Some things require a global authority to regulate to make sure we do not run out of oil or bluefin tuna.
Look what happened to Easter Island. They cut down all the trees. Then they had warfare and killed themselves off. I suppose you applaud this “market force”.
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@DJ,
While my other comment is in moderation, let me remark about this:
Sometimes you drop a real boner. If you want people to take you seriously, you won’t get far with statements like that.
Since when has Abagond dehumanized white people? The only post that even entertained the idea was the following:
Again, that was just a thought experiment and parody.
As he said, he is trying to undo dehumanization. And if he does do something dehumanization, I will not hesitate to call him out on in.
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As he said, he is trying to undo dehumanization.
bullshlt.
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@ Abagond – re: dehumanization – one white person’s view:
http://www.rc.org/uer/TheRoleofWhites.html
(It’s too bad that this message cannot be heard and received by 99.99% percent of the racist trolls that are/were permitted to foul and stink up this site. I don’t need to call any names, you all know who you are!)
“The Role of White People in Ending Racism
Racism is contrary to the fundamental nature of every human being. All human beings begin life caring deeply about all other human beings. Until we ourselves are hurt – put down, ignored, threatened, beaten, criticized, isolated, and so on – each of us wants all people to be treated well. None of us, including white people, would ever participate in the racist mistreatment or oppression of other humans unless we had first been hurt. However, once hurt, we are vulnerable to hurting others – by participating in oppressive systems and acting oppressively as individuals.
In an oppressive society, few people escape being hurt in ways that leave us feeling scared and bad about ourselves. It is when we are scared or when we feel bad about ourselves that we are most vulnerable to believing racist messages.
In a racist society there is a constant barrage of racist messages and practices – from family, friends, acquaintances, schools, the media, and many other institutions. No one can grow up in such an environment and escape its effects. In this way the society installs racism on every white person. It does so regardless of how strongly or for how long we actively resist.
White People Act as Agents of Racism
As a result of these hurts, all white people have been conditioned to accept the lies of racism and to carry racist feelings. Some white people stop questioning these feelings and act out these “beliefs” in hateful and oppressive ways. Other white people intellectually reject the content of racist messages and try to treat people targeted by racism respectfully and as equals. But even when those of us who are white act with goodwill toward people targeted by racism or actively engage in fighting racism, attitudes connected with racism (unjustified fears, the seeking of approval, feelings of superiority, etc.) surface from time to time and must be battled in order for us to act consistently according to our best thinking.
We white people are pulled to act on the basis of the racism we’ve heard and seen, acting sometimes subtly and unawarely and other times overtly and harshly.
Racism Hurts White People
Racism greatly damages the lives of people targeted by it. Racism also hurts those of us who are white. (This is true of any group that acts out oppression at another group.) This is far from the damage inflicted on the targets of racism, but it corrupts our humanity and compounds the ways we already feel bad about ourselves. Not standing up against racism erodes our integrity and undermines our sense of goodness and self-worth.
White people become separated from the majority of the world’s people, know little about them, and miss close involvement in the lives of a rich variety of people. Racism also erodes relationships between white people – we do not want to be associated with “that white racist” or “that white liberal.” Racism leaves us feeling hopeless about actually eliminating racism and creating a just and equitable society.
White People Ending Racism and Healing from the Hurts of White Racism
United to End Racism and Re-evaluation Counseling have valuable experience and tools for white people to use in ending racism. We have learned that any and all “oppressor roles” (the role played by a person who has been conditioned to be an agent of oppression) are installed by hurting people very deeply. White people’s oppressive behavior arises from deep emotional damage. Sustained emotional work is therefore required for those of us who are white people to free ourselves from racism. To create a just society, white people must not only inform ourselves fully about racism and take action to end it, but must also heal from the damage caused by being exposed to racism and by having participated in it.
United to End Racism has found that white people taking turns listening to each other in pairs and in groups is an effective way to do this emotional work. Those of us who are white need to remember and to tell our stories about the racism in our lives and assist one another to release the intense feelings that underlie these stories. These stories can include early experiences with racism, the racist lies we were told, the times we acted out racism, and the racist attitudes that were held by the people around us, as well as the successes we’ve had in fighting racism.
To do this work, we white people need settings in which we can be open about racism without being blamed or shamed, where we know we are cared about and respected. Under these conditions, we can remember and tell what happened to us with regard to racism and release the painful emotions from these experiences. And we need to learn to do this work with one another as white people. It is the job of white people, not people targeted by racism, to do the work to both stop white people from perpetuating racism and to help white people heal the damage we carry.
With emotional release, white people are able to think afresh about these experiences. We become partners with people targeted by racism in their efforts to heal from having lived in a racist society. We begin taking effective steps to end racism along with freeing ourselves of the effects of racism, all of which improves our lives in countless ways.
White People as Allies to People Targeted by Racism
An important part of ending racism and all other oppressions is to develop alliances between those targeted by the oppression and those outside the targeted group. Eliminating racism requires the development of strong alliances among groups of people targeted by racism and also with white people who are committed to ending racism. These white allies are people who have decided to work for the liberation of all people targeted by racism. We, white people in this ally role, demonstrate by our actions and words that we support the goals and visions of groups targeted by racism and work alongside them. In United to End Racism, we have learned a great deal about building these alliances and about white people becoming effective allies.
Steps Toward Becoming White Allies
There are many ways for white people to work as allies in eliminating racism. Some of these include:
Taking visible stands against all forms of racism by both backing anti-racism organizations led by people targeted by racism as well as standing independently as a white person against racism;
Working on and eliminating our own racism and healing the places we have been silent and passive about racism;
Standing against one of the effects of racism by reminding targeted people of their goodness, intelligence, competence, and the importance of their relationships with one another;
Actively seeking correct information and healing from the ways we have been unaware and uninformed;
Building long-term friendships with people targeted by racism and challenging the racist messages of separation, difference, and fear;
Training and building groups of white allies committed to eliminating racism by assisting other whites to heal the damage done to us by racism;
Understanding that being allies to people targeted by racism is for our own benefit since it involves reclaiming our full humanity and having a world right for everyone, a world where everyone matters.”
end of essay
********
We need some NEW RULES
Rule # 1:
WHITE PEOPLE MUST STOP CLASSIFYING/BELIEVING THEMSELVES AS WHITE.
They are not, and never have been white – in any way, shape or form. It is a false idea (ideal) that feeds their delusions of racial grandeur.
Whiteness sees itself as better, smarter, wiser, stronger, less violent, more humane, and a host of other supposedly good attributes it does not (in reality) come close to living up to.
It’s my opinion that anyone believing themselves a member (or sympathizer) of the “white” club, or RACE, is complicit in the various machinations of racism/white supremacy …. whiteness.
It is my opinion that WHITENESS is the most corrosive, caustic, destructive and dangerous force on this planet. If it is not eradicated, it will eradicate all/most human life on this globe.
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matari
First, you don’t get to tell others how to self-identify. And, second, your screed against “whiteness” is nothing but a racist smear.
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@ Da Jokah
So where do I dehumanize white people?
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@Da Jokah
And, second, your screed against “whiteness” is nothing but a racist smear.
-Franz Fanon
Matari is speaking of “Whiteness” as a social construct, not people with pale skin. A question: would anyone call themselves “white” if “Black”, “Brown”, “Red”, and “Yellow” people didn’t exist?
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So where do I dehumanize white people?
de·hu·man·ize /dēˈ(h)yo͞oməˌnīz/ (verb) deprive of positive human qualities.
Dehumanization can occur discursively by erasing one’s voice from discourse and often ignores the target’s individuality to prevents one from showing compassion towards stigmatized groups.
I’d say that describes your posts perfectly. In this post you’ve sought to erase white voice from racial discourse by using joshua solomon to suggest whites are unqualified to speak to racial issues. In other posts you frequently claim whites ignore black individuality while ignoring white individuality. In this post you suggest whites act the same i.e. “whites look away, lock their doors, assume he is dangerous or up to no good.” No doubt you’ll claim you’re just quoting Joshua Solomon to give yourself an air of objectivity. Or maybe you’ll fall back on your old standby that you’re “not talking about all whites just the racist ones>.” Of course, to you ‘racist whites’ are the rule not the exception and the only exceptions are the ones who agree with you.
I particularly like the “Why there should be a white history month” in which you list every negative thing you can come up with and entreat your readers to pile on. The lynching photo is a particularly nice example of waving the bloody shirt. You’re telling me that’s not an attempt to stigmatize? Or how about this one — “Why do whites hate, demonize, fear and look down on blacks?”. I particularly like where you went back and added the word “many” so you can claim you’re not talking about all whites. Nonetheless, that’s a leading question if I’ve ever heard one. That’s right folks — white people “hate, demonize, fear and look down” on you. Are you telling me that’s not designed to stigmatize? But my all time favorite is “Alligator bait” in which you say it’s the practice of using little black children as bait to catch alligators complete with rumors and unnamed sources as ‘evidence’. Recognizing this you add a little disclaimer that one unnamed source “possibly a tall tale”. Gee, ya think? I’m wondering if that wasn’t added after a couple of readers called you on the lack of real evidence. I could probably find similar examples in more posts than not. But I’ve made my point.
You can try to hide behind quotes from others and presenting your claims as “just the facts, ma’am” to give your screeds an air of objectivity. But when you keep beating the same drum don’t be surprised when others recognize the tune. Now, let the denials and personal attacks begin.
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@Da Jokah
Yeah, the alligator bait stories are true.
http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/news/jimcrow/question/may13/index.htm
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@dj
dude read my posting here about my ex-roomate talkin about florida. they let me talk here, dude. get real
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A social commentary from a keen and sage observer: TruthBeTold
WHEN THE VICTIMIZER BECOMES THE VICTIM
“Somewhere in the deep recesses of the white mind, white people have convinced themselves that they are the innocent victims being terrorized by the Dark-skinned Negro. Somewhere in their minds, their crimes against huemanity and against the entire planet have been replaced by a selective amnesia where they have forgotten the most important factor in this equation:
Race was their idea.
Race was their construct.
Race was their political tool for wealth.
[RACE IS SOMETHING THEY MAINTAIN AND REFINE FOR THEIR OWN ADVANTAGES.]
What I find fascinating about white people is how easily they “flip the script.” It’s as if they are on a movie set where they direct their own lives. A screenwriter writes their own personal dialogue and a production team dreams up the landscaping and events that occur. When finished, the editor removes certain clips and frames and voila! The movie is ready to be viewed (and accepted) by the entire world.
I firmly believe that white people, as a whole, are mentally sick. They simply cannot deal with their crimes and the implications of what those crimes mean for the planet and ultimately, for themselves. So they run from it. Blindly. As fast as they can. And when that small voice inside each of us whispers in their ear, they swat it away like a troublesome gnat. White people are a woeful group of mentally ill patients eagerly awaiting a magic pill to ease their existence on earth. Obsessed with the very people they subjugate, they dwell on our lives with a vengeance that puzzles them, puzzles us and puzzles every other race that desperately seeks their attention. Like petulant children, they hate the power of their parents yet are made dependent on them for they cannot fend for themselves.
The thing that makes me (almost) sad for them is the underlying reason for their obsession.
They are deathly afraid of the repercussions for their crimes against the Original Hueman. They fixate on our would-be revenge because they know intrinsically what awaits them in the near future. They feel their impeding doom lurking beneath their nice houses, new cars and full-time jobs with 2-week vacations. Nothing they do or say now in the name of “righteousness” will make their karma less devastating. And they know this. They sense this. This is what drives them to buy gun, after gun, after gun. Fear is caused by wrongdoing. This is why they cannot be in peace. They are deathly afraid not of us, but of their own extinction caused by their own actions.”
*************
Let the usual LACK of below average reading comprehension, from some people, now begin!
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@Da Jokah
As for this gem, I don’t need Abagond, or anyone else to tell me this; I’ve experienced it myself since I was 5 years old. Another student slapped me in the face on my first day to school because of my color. I’ve been followed in stores, I’ve seen fearful expressions on the faces of white strangers when they see me, I’ve been called a “dangerous Black guy” by a “friend” even though I’d done nothing to deserve the label. My guidance counselor refused to send my transcripts to any “White” colleges even though I had the grades and the SAT scores to get in. She did the same thing to my sister and other non-white students from my high school. My mother’s life was threatened 2 years ago by a man who carried a gun “Because a lot of Black people have been moving in lately”. Never-mind living in a society that tries to convinces you of your own racial inferiority; if I wasn’t shielded from the very worst aspects of being Black in America in my developing years, I don’t know where I’d be. I’m 21 years old and middle class, so I imagine it’s only worse for those who are poorer than I am.
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At least Joshua Solomon had the cajones to go out and discover the truth for himself, even if he didn’t believe his “black” friends.
In my opinion, that’s a whole lot more MANNING UP than some of the troll Jokas that frequent this site, talking strictly out their azz about a topic they PRETEND to know intimately, yet know little to nothing about … America’s racial history and first hand knowledge of African American’s ongoing suffering at the hands of racism/white supremacy.
These super-idiots should be banned on principle for their absolute and intentional gross ignorance. Even stupidity should have limits.
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D.
Yeah, the alligator bait stories are true.
Do you believe AIDS was invented to kill blacks, too?
I’ve experienced it myself since I was 5 years old.
I’ve experienced discrimination myself, Some people openly admitted it. Should I use that as confirmatory bias to convince myself that [fill in the blank] are “bad”?
”
V8
they let me talk here, dude. get real
To borrow a term from this blog, you’re a “rented negr0”. And, no, I’m not suggesting you literally receive payment.
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matari
Thanks for providing such an excellent example of the kind of dehumanization found among Abagond’s fans. It supports my point perfectly.
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@Da Jokah
I love how you sidestepped the alligator link. Dude, depraved white people used black babies as alligator. Probably kidnapped these babies.
Now, what is your theory about the AIDS phenomenon, because I am very skeptical, that some disease that would attack your immune system that would randomly show up in nature.
That disease is too sophisticated in the way it attacks the human body.
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thats interesting
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the theory is that aids was introduced by the us government to target homosexual/iv drug users in nyc and sf
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@v8driver
Thanks
@Da Jokah
it is well documented about The Tuskegee experiment that doctors gave black males syphillis to see the long-term detrimental effects.
Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment
Now the government ADMITTED this & apologize. Because they got caught.
So imagine the buried black bodies we didn’t catch.
Why do smart white men get dumb instantaneously when it comes to race talks. Hmmm
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Nice job ignoring a link to a well sourced university web page.
No, I don’t. Mostly because I’ve read a lot about HIV and its origin. Also because there are far more effective ways to kill people in masse; HIV is a terrible biological weapon.
This blog exists to confirm that racism exists in our society and the many ways racism manifests in art, science, politics, and education both in the present and the past. It exists because racism hurts us emotionally, mentally, and physically. It exists to show that we are not alone in our discontent nor are we crazy. It exists to satirize the absurdity of racism. It does not exist to say that White people are “bad”, I can show you websites that try to make you believe that white people are “evil” and the difference is palpable.
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@D
That is all true. However, you cannot just kill people willy nilly, they would to plan it all the way through.
You will have the surviving people rioting in the streets, panicking, etc.
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@dj “To borrow a term from this blog, you’re a “rented negr0″. And, no, I’m not suggesting you literally receive payment.”
LOL that is ignorant you don’t understand what that means
so i’m sitting here with my girlfriend and her son and she’s like what are you smiling at and we have a nice discussion about that term, and her 17 year old kid is like ‘he’s a troll’ thanks for a nice laugh dude!
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@ Da Jokah
The locked doors, alligator bait, whites demonizing blacks, the White History Month stuff – all of it is true to the best of my knowledge. I do not have to make this stuff up.
The “demonize” post was not revised once it started receiving comments. The “many” was in the original.
Does this blog present a BALANCED picture of White Americans? No way. I do not sing of their glories because they have the largest media machine in history doing that already. They also control what is taught at American public schools, which is very UNBALANCED. A point that this post and others like it make.
Most Americans, no matter what their race, have been brainwashed to have an overly high opinion of whites and an overly low one of blacks. Myself included. THAT brainwashing is what I am writing against.
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@Abagond
LOL. I guess controlling the positive image of whites in global media outlets and the history books in American schools is simply not enough. Your blog must also “sing of the glories” of whites as well.
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I always wondered why a single blog of one person is enough for some people to act like the troop are assembling. This pops up pretty frequently, any critique of the white code of conduct is automatically “hate”, it’s pathetic.
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“Now, what is your theory about the AIDS phenomenon, because I am very skeptical, that some disease that would attack your immune system that would randomly show up in nature.”
– – –
There are two individual AIDS-like viruses which showed up around the mid-90s, and specifically target cats and dogs — two species that are not even remotely related to human beings. [Strays are greatly affected by this disease type…it is, to my mind, a manufactured method of decreasing the stray / feral population, Folks who may not care much about the lives and well-being of animals can still consider the implications of this disease type supposedly popping up at random amongst at least 3 unrelated species. Hmm…]
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My apologies. I meant the above comment to post under my “Fiamma” username.
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@Adonis
Well, actually, you can kill people willy nilly, especially if you’re the U.S.A. Even if Black people were to indulge in (White) American gun culture and owned AK-47s, we’d lose really, really badly no matter how much we rioted.
@Gen
It’s a recurring trope in the tragic story of American racism. White Americans have always been afraid that Black Americans want “Revenge for Slavery” or some other such nonsense:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9ZpD34Xk3M)
—
On another note, and because he bugs me, it’s too bad Andrew Klavan doesn’t apply his own logic about Anti-semitism to his detect his own racism:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCtjjNFokTw)
Imagine if someone said, “the Jews orchestrated the U.S. occupation of Germany to get revenge for the Holo-“, BUZZZ!
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@Fiamma
HIV is derived from SIV, a retro virus that preys upon monkeys and can be contracted by humans via blood-to-blood contact with monkeys, which usually happens after hunting the animals. While HIV is a “young” virus, SIV is very, very old. However, SIV is a self limiting infection that only causes mild symptoms at worst, which is why in all the hundreds of years humans have hunted chimps and monkeys, HIV has never developed via blood contact.
This changed in the era of colonialism when a number of factors; new venereal diseases like herpes and gonorrhea, urban prostitution, and the reuse of vaccination needles, allowed SIV to spread quickly throughout the population. This gave SIV the opportunity to develop genes better suited to infecting humans (it’s like buying millions the lotto tickets to win the lottery, where the “tickets” are human hosts, and the “lottery” are the RNA sequences coding for the proteins gp120 and gp41). Thus, HIV was born.
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@fiamma I never thought about fiv (feline) and is it C for canine-IV? interesting.
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@DJ,
I read every post in this blog back to 2006. The only one that I found that dehumanized whites was the one that I found on British, and it was a parody. Do you have a single example of a post where whites were dehumanized? Even the Alligator Bait one has nothing with dehumanizing whites, but is only about how whites have dehumanized blacks in the past.
Can you give an example where whites have been dehumanized on this blog? I reread the post “Why there should be a White History Month?” and didn’t see a single solitary item where whites were dehumanized. In fact, many of them were instances where whites dehumanized non-whites, not where whites were dehumanized. And it just listed them, it didn’t go into the detail of the dehumanization. I didn’t see any where whites themselves were dehumanized.
Maybe in cases like the Bataan Death March, the Japanese dehumanized white Americans, but even then, most of the ones brutalized were Filipinos. But on this blog? Where?
He is not tooting the horns for whites, but he didn’t dehumanize them.
Waiting for your examples.
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Abagond, you do not dehumanize white people, i should know, i am a white people….I have only read and perceived rich discussion, rich text and deep opinions based on experiences and thought. First of all a black person in America is incapable of being a racist toward whites in my opinion. Any discord, hate, ill feelings, bitterness, distrust and so on an African American has towards whites is based on how they have been treated and the atrocious history of white abuse. So we could never be able to gauge what degree of hatred is based on true racism or what degree is based on treatment. As for whites, we have not one excuse for our discord or hatred towards blacks. There is not one viable excuse where a white person can justify hatred towards the black community based on history and social condition. Now there are some people who can say, well my brother was killed by a black person and thats why I hate them. The smart person will know that the black community is not liable for this persons loss and instead the white person should hate the person that killed his brother not the color of the mans skin that killed his brother. White racism started hundreds of years ago and again is baseless; has the black man taken the white mans land? Has the black man waged war on America or the white man? Has the black man ever owned the white man as a slave, torturing, raping, murdering him?…NO. The white mans hate towards other races is based on….I don’t have an answer or a theory for this one, it doesn’t make sense, it’s not logical, it’s just pure hate and ignorance…but mostly I think it is FEAR….I know it can’t be something as simple as PENIS ENVY….or maybe it is….
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D.
Nice job ignoring a link to a well sourced university web page.
I wouldn’t call a couple of articles that don’t include any names or witnesses to be “well sourced”. And doubtful since the article said black mothers were renting out their babies for “bait”. Do you really think black women were renting their babies out as “bait”?
”
Adonis
it is well documented about The Tuskegee experiment that doctors gave black males syphillis to see the long-term detrimental effects.
Actually they didn’t. The infected participants had syphillis before the study began. The participants were studied for 6 months and then treated with several contemporary methods. Which didn’t work because they didn’t have an effective treatment at the time. Penecillin didn’t become the standard treatment until 15 years later. The controversy is that the doctors continued the study without informing the participants they were infected or treating them with penicillin once it became the standard treatment.
Tuskegee was, however, a HBC and the study was carried out with the full knowledge of local black doctors and nurses. In fact, a black doctor named Eugene Dibble was head of the hospital where it was carried out. I’m not saying that absolves the white participants. I am, however, saying that you’re wrong to saying the doctors infected them and making it more racial than it was. Why do that?
”
Does this blog present a BALANCED picture of White Americans? No way. I do not sing of their glories…
No kidding.
because they have the largest media machine in history doing that already. They also control what is taught at American public schools, which is very UNBALANCED. A point that this post and others like it make.
So whites control the media eh? The last time I heard something like that David Duke was talking about “The Jews”. I wouldn’t exactly call the media or the public schools pro white. Every time I turn it on I hear some self righteous prick who sounds like Mr Bentley.
”
jefe
Waiting for your examples.”
I’ve already given some. Are they not valid unless you agree?
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Sure it is an attempt to stigmatize, the conservative white government of the past and to some degree to this day has done everything in their power to keep such images from the public, especially the southern states. No history book in Texas talks about how many black men were lynched every week in the 1960’s or how it continued into the 80’s. It’s about time we stood up and acknowledged our past and present. One of the reasons so many white men and women 40 years plus deny that blacks have been treated as bad as they claim is because they grew up in a world where such images and stories were kept from the schools and media. They know of slavery and of segregation but they are basically unaware or refuse to believe such atrocities without the shocking proof they were denied in the past. They continue to grow more and more conservative in their aging process believing that African Americans didn’t have it that bad and they have all the advantages whites have, which is just poppycock!.(to use an old white man term).
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D, you don’t have to convince this white guy, I believe every single word you say and have experienced, I have seen it myself to one degree or another…
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@WB
I can imagine a couple scenarios where a black person might be able to exercise some degree of racism towards whites.
1. Hiring a pastor for a Black Christian church
I could imagine a white pastor with pastor experience and extensive work and outreach in black communities being passed over for a black pastor who might have less experience. I don’t know any example where it has occurred, but I could imagine it to be possible.
2. Black basketball coach at a state university that is majority white
Of course the coach will have to have some white team members, and it might be argued that they are not quite as good as the black players, but the coach might try to give the black team members more playing time when he knows that minor and major league talent scouts are in the audience.
I don’t even want to get into it about how he would treat *Asian* team members.
Of course, I have to really conjure up scenarios where it could be possible, but I don’t know the extent to where it has actually happened.
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@DJ
I didn’t see any case of whites being dehumanized in any of the examples that you gave. You did not list any dehumanizing element in your post above. Could you point out exactly what the dehumanizing factor or element actually was in the example so that I can make sure that we are looking at the same thing?
Questioning whether Joshua Solomon is qualified to give an accurate depiction of what it is like being black in America is in no way dehumanizing him. In fact, it seemed that his contribution to the discourse was definitely welcome. I could not find any dehumanizing element in that at all.
Among the examples that you gave, it looked like blacks (or other non-whites) were the ones being dehumanized, not whites.
Whites ARE dehumanized here:
But Abagond specifically added a disclaimer that the purpose was to illustrate how many whites find ways to dehumanize blacks. It was purely a parody.
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jefe
Could you point out exactly what the dehumanizing factor or element actually was in the example so that I can make sure that we are looking at the same thing?
Let’s suppose someone created a blog. And every day they posted a news article about blacks doing something horrible to whites. Rapes, murders, beatings, torture, etc. Suppose they even threw in an occasional video of King Samir Shabazz or Khalid Abdul Muhammad ranting about “killing cave monkeys” And let’s say they did this for years. No doubt those are examples of racists who are dehumanizing whites. But how long would it take before you realized the real goal wasn’t to dehumanize whites but to dehumanize blacks by constantly portraying them in such negative scenarios?
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We don’t have to suppose a blog like this was created. It has been there all the time. It is called the News.
Likening whites to “cave monkeys” would be dehumanizing to whites. But can you give an example where whites were dehumanized on this blog (not on some *supposed* blog).
or where the goal was to dehumanize whites? Maybe you think I am just blind, but I did not see you point out a single example yet. I will be the first to acknowledge and admit it, and call Abagond out for it if we can identify it.
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jefe
Maybe you think I am just blind
No. I think you’re biased.
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Or maybe you just think that pointing out some examples where whites were dehumanizing to blacks or other non-whites is somehow dehumanizing to whites.
I gave examples of dehumanization of whites, but Abagond had not performed that.
Gee, if you find that dehumanizing, what would happen if you truly encountered something dehumanizing!
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@Jefe
That white guilt is HEAVY.
That lets you know that WHITES know they are in the wrong.
Smh
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Right about now, I’m wondering why some people here are worried about dehumanizing whites, especially in a discussion supposedly focused on systematic dehumanization of blacks.
In fact, I can’t think of any scenarios where whites, as a social group, have been dehumanized to the extent that black Americans have been. Or on an individual basis, for that matter. Said dehumanization has gone on for centuries and it will continue, largely unabated, until at which point the country itself is ultimately dissolved or until whites not only become a physical and social minority, but also lose all powers and privileges that allowed them to retain top standing on the socioeconomic global food chain.
And yet whenever black Americans attempt to explain the whys and hows of their own dehumanization to whites and other groups, they’re either ignored or rebuffed by whites accusing their black counterparts of…wait for it…dehumanizing them.
As for “Da Jokah,” he/she/it is like most other trolls who plant themselves on black blogs in hopes of getting a rise from resident commentators. Giving them an audience of any sort would be a grave disservice in of itself.
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@sondis:
During Jim Crow, the only places where the vast majority of black businesses could get loans was from black-owned and operated banks. Citizens Federal Savings and Loan Association in Birmingham, AL was formed for this very reason. In fact, a lot of black-owned establishments existed to serve a populace that couldn’t be served anywhere else.
Post-Segregation, black Americans enjoyed the freedom of being able to go anywhere they wanted and doing business with whomever they wanted. With that freedom came neglect of black businesses, as though it was decided that they weren’t needed anymore. Meanwhile, other ethnic groups maintained businesses that catered to their own, allowing those groups to maintain much of their economic clout – keeping their money in their own communities.
At this point, you’d have to ask yourself why black businesses are seen as a bad risk and why they seem subject to bankruptcy at higher rates. For one, I believe the support network for black businesses ranges from thin to nonexistent. For another, there’s the chicken-and-egg problem of banks refusing loans to black businesses, with the attendant lack of financial support causing them to go under which bolsters the stats and causes banks to refuse loans, etc…
Then there’s the psychological factor of blacks seeing their own businesses – and just about every aspect of themselves and their achievements – as being less than others. Henceforth, they’re less likely to support their own rather than patronize other, “better” establishments. And then there are some establishments that think they can get away with offering lower-quality goods or a lower-quality customer experience simply because of their clientele.
Just throwing my $0.02 into the fountain here.
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“Let’s suppose someone created a blog. And every day they posted a news article about blacks doing something horrible to whites. Rapes, murders, beatings, torture, etc.”………….
@DJ, dehumanizing, dehumanizing….what about the 1,000 hate group sites on the internet, what about the hundreds of thousands of photos of black women and men being water hosed or bitten by dogs, etc…and where is the photo of a white man hanging from a tree with hundreds of whites with their children standing around,,,What came first the chicken or the egg? In this case we know that the chicken came first and the chicken just happens to be whites dehumanizing blacks for hundreds of years and when physical means were no longer “lawful” the racist resort to political and economic means to dehumanize blacks. The one and only reason why this site exist is because of the 500 years or more dehumanization of blacks by whites. And now when blacks have a outlet to discuss how they feel or what they see some whites get mad or get their feelings hurt…well excuse me but I don’t see your feelings hanging from a tree…suck it up and if you don’t like reading what other people think turn the channel!!!
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@Mack Lyons
I think you got a lot of it right.
Black-owned businesses declined because
– post-Jim Crow, blacks could shop anywhere, including white businesses. black-owned businesses lost a large percentage of their clientele
– lack of black community credit and financing organizations. (at least during Jim Crow, some parallel organizations could be set up)
– support network for black businesses is thin
– subsequent redlining by mainstream credit organizations
– view by blacks that black-owned businesses are “2nd rate” compared to businesses owned by others
I did a research project in Univ. about the Chinese-Americans operating businesses in the Mississippi Delta pre-Jim Crow. Jim Loewen published a book about it. It seems that blacks, seeing the Chinese-Americans as surrogates of white society (esp. post-WWII after they started letting ethnic Chinese go to white schools and sit in the white section of cinemas and drink from white water fountains), actually preferred to shop at the Chinese owned stores rather than the black-owned stores, and appreciated courtesy extended to them there than at the black owned stores. I do wonder if some of the same psychology still operates today.
I think another factor is the social ties to the community they operate in. This means that they might feel obligated to give discounts, credit, or special favors to the people they know. It also means that they cannot get away with installing security measures (eg, bulletproof service windows) that non-blacks can get away with in black neighborhoods.
One more factor is probably the growth of the black middle class, which can move out and patronize others (related to the point above).
These and other factors actually leave a niche open for non-blacks to open businesses that serve blacks, esp. “ethnic” Americans that did maintain their parallel institutions outside mainstream America.
I don’t know how to solve the problem really. Maybe a combination of community-based
– credit union or even microcredit organization
– insurer or even regional or national one that does not redline their neighborhoods
– security programs (when the police are not doing their job to protect these businesses)
– business training (2 generations without a full community of black entrepreneurs – how do we transfer this knowledge and experience)
Desegregation actually caused part of the black “community” to break down. What is needed is to build it back up.
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jefe
Or maybe you just think…
I said what I thought.
”
Adonis
That lets you know that WHITES know they are in the wrong.
If someone tried to rub your nose in the Christian-Newsom murders would you feel guilty or would you resent them trying to rub your nose in it?
”
Mr Bentley
There’s no “chicken or egg” when it comes to right and wrong. Also, I’ve noticed that you’re insane.
”
Mack
Just throwing my $0.02 into the fountain here.
Excellent comment. I agree with most of it.
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Thank you for cracking me up so early in the morning, maybe there is hope for you yet…..Your first response should be revisited because again you just proved everybody’s point, “You just said what you thought”, thats what everyone on this post is doing, are you saying it’s okay for you to be honest about race but when Abagond does it it’s dehumanizing? You finally said something with a vein of truth….yes I am insane. But regardless of the white jacket I wear your last post says it all, RIGHT and WRONG. Is it right for whites to have all the privileges, all the outlets and everything else without being put under a microscope. White supremacist protest almost everyday in this country but it is never talked about, is it dehumanizing?…African American community protest the murder of an unarmed child by a gun toting psycho and it’s on every news channel in America, making blacks look bad, but when a black child goes missing the media is nowhere to be found, isn’t that dehumanizing? Not the same when a white child goes missing…they even have a name for a white child missing…Amber Alert…it should say White Alert because if the child has amber or darker colored skin they don’t make the cut….Wuaahahaha!!! …peace dawg!
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Many of the incidents documented were reported in the newspapers. The freaking newspapers man!
You truly live a sheltered life if you think there’s any limit to human cruelty. People have done worse to their children, I know of a woman who starved her baby to death because it was “possessed”, and another who put her baby in the oven because it was crying.
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Those two incidents sound like mental health issues and not human cruelty. The acts were cruel but in my mind does count as human cruelty. Human cruelty in my mind is when a sane person chooses money over human tragedy, drugs over food for their children, men who use women and children as sex slaves, women who take their frustrations out on their children physically or verbally, etc…your incidents are extremely sick and cruel but were no doubt committed by women who had no control over their mental state…just my .02 cents….
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So the people who own Viacom, Disney, News Corp, GE, Time Warner, and CBS aren’t White? Good to know.
Right, the media is Anti-white and bent upon the destruction of White people. Oh, lets completely forget the massive amounts of movies, cartoons, tv shows, and videogames featuring White male or female leads. Your persecution complex is astounding, because criticizing racism=hating white people, right?
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D.
The freaking newspapers man!
If someone wrote an article in the ‘freaking newspaper’ it must be true right? Even if there were no names or witnesses? And the chamber of commerce where it allegedly took place said it was false? The article was repeating rumours.
So the people who own Viacom, Disney, News Corp, GE, Time Warner, and CBS aren’t White? Good to know.
The upper management at Viacom, Disney, News Corp, GE, Time Warner, and CBS are mostly Jewish. So by your logic, David Duke is right about “The Jews” controlling the media. Do you think “The Jews” control the media?
Right, the media is Anti-white and bent upon the destruction of White people.
Straw man. Abagond implied the media was a pro white propaganda machine. I said they’re not pro white and they sound like Mr Bentley.
”
Mr Bentley
Human cruelty in my mind is when a sane person chooses money over human tragedy, drugs over food for their children, men who use women and children as sex slaves, women who take their frustrations out on their children physically or verbally, etc
Finally, something we can agree on.
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^For once in your life prove this fantasy.
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Only four blacks will be left running Fortune 500 companies after Stan O’Neal’s abrupt retirement from the top spot at Merrill Lynch & Co. last week and Time Warner Inc. Dick Parsons’ announcement Monday that he will retire at the end of the year.
That leaves Aylwin Lewis at Sears Holding Corp., Kenneth Chenault at American Express Co., Ronald Williams at Aetna Inc. and Clarence Otis at Darden Restaurants Inc. as the only black chief executives among this list of the nation’s largest companies.
To some, the departures of O’Neal and Parsons underscore that all CEOs, whatever their race, have a short shelf life.
“In the best situations, these are not jobs you hold on to for more than five to seven years,” said Alfred Edmond Jr., editor-in-chief of Black Enterprise magazine. “The bulletproof CEOs of the ’80s _ those days are long gone, even for white men.”
Twenty years from now, Edmond predicts, there will be double the number of black CEOs, but that will still bring their total to fewer than a dozen. “The numbers are so small that any improvement will seem like a giant leap forward,” he said.
On his short list are John Thompson, CEO of Symantec Corp., which is just shy of entering the Fortune 500; Ursula M. Burns, president of Xerox Corp., and Don Thompson, president of McDonald’s USA at McDonald’s Corp.
While the numbers now may be dispiriting, “10 or 15 years ago, we couldn’t have had this conversation, because there was no one to talk about,” Edmond said.
The reasons why so few blacks reach the top ranks are tangled.
“When African-Americans enter the corporate arena, they enter with a trust deficit,” said Jessica Faye Carter, author of “Double Outsiders: How Women of Color can Succeed in Corporate America.”
“There’s a perception they have to overcome, even if they have a law degree from Harvard or an MBA from Harvard,” she said. “The indicia of power in corporate America is still white and male.”
Blacks are also likely to end up in jobs that don’t have an advancement track. A study of workers in Los Angeles, Chicago, New York and the San Francisco area by the University of California, Berkeley’s Center for Labor Research and Education found that more than half of black workers were in jobs that don’t pay well, don’t provide retirement and health benefits and don’t offer avenues for advancement.
And when blacks enter corporate America, they often find it unfriendly.
A survey of 19,000 people conducted by The Level Playing Field Institute found that people of color are more than twice as likely as heterosexual white men to have left a job because of “unfairness,” such as being passed over for a promotion due to personal characteristics, being stereotyped or being subjected to offensive jokes.
Barron Harvey, dean of the school of business at historically black Howard University in Washington, said the school’s message to its students is the same as it would be in any quality business school.
“They must be very well prepared, they must be calculated in the risks they take, they must be achievers in any and all projects they undertake,” he said.
The school also emphasizes that students should assume, until they have information to the contrary, that all behavior they encounter at work is positively intended. And if they find it’s not, he said, “there is responsibility, for the betterment of the organization, to confront it in a professional, organizationally sanctioned way.”
__
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king
^For once in your life prove this fantasy.
Why? Does google not work on your computer?
http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-stein19-2008dec19,0,2339294.column
Unlike Abagond (and Farrakhan) I don’t have a problem with it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/do-jews-control-the-media_b_753227.html
I agree with Dershowitz.
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Why should White People fear blacks near their family?
A frog that is asked by the scorpion to carry it across the water. To allay the frog’s suspicions, the scorpion argues that this would be safe since, if he stung the frog, both would drown. The frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog. When asked the reason for his illogical action, the scorpion explains that this is simply his nature.
===
‘Why would my uncle Mike do that?’ Family friend ‘shot dead girl, 7, and best friend, 21, after stealing electronics from home’
By Rachel Quigley
UPDATED: 11:15 EST, 19 December 2011
Two men, one of them a close family friend, have been arrested for the shooting deaths of a seven-year-old and her uncle who were buried on Sunday.
Michael Bell – who the family referred to as ‘Uncle Mike’ – was arrested for the murder of Kyleigh Crane and Jeremy Crane, 21, along with Jeremy Priel, who was not known to the family.
Jeremy and Kyleigh were shot in the head on December 12 at their home in Indianapolis and an Xbox game console, Playstation console and cellphone were stolen.
Police made the arrests after an investigation turned up the murder weapon.
The Crane family were shocked at the news, as they said Bell and Jeremy Crane were inseparable and he spent so much time at their home he became known as a member of the family.
Brayden Crane, five, said to his mother when he found out: ‘Why would my Uncle Mike do that? He loved me. And he loved Kyleigh.’
‘Both of my children loved him,’ mother Holly Long Wilson told the Indianapolis Star. ‘This will stick with me. I will never be at peace, and this will never go away.
‘I don’t understand how someone could do something so horrible.’
Bell, 22, and Priel, 25 are being held without bail at Marion County Jail.
Authorities are remaining tight-lipped about the case but believe they have arrested the right people.
Cathy Crane said: ‘He was my son’s best friend. Someone we trusted.
‘He lived in our house. I’ve done his laundry. I’ve given him food. We always had an open door . . . for anyone.
‘The kids knew him, they loved him and they called him Uncle Mike.’
Bell lived with the Cranes for a few months earlier this year but moved out a month ago, though the family do not know why.
They say they do not know the other suspect.
Bell and Jeremy went to Warren Central High School together and Jeremy supported his best friend when he was accused of raping another student under a staircase at the school in 2007.
A jury later found him not guilty
Mrs Crane told reporters yesterday: ‘Jeremy was there when Mike was originally charged in that case.
‘My son and my husband were in court. I spent an entire week while he was in court supporting him. We were there every day.
‘And what hurts me the most is that we have not heard from his family at all.’
It was Mrs Crane who found the bodies at their home. Jeremy was shot in the head twice and Kyleigh once.
She said they have moved out of the house as it carries too many bad memories.
‘We can’t go back there. This is a home that had something very traumatic happen to it. And I haven’t been to sleep since Monday. You lay down and your eyes are wide open and you stare at walls.’
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It’s his NATURE.
Men Charged With Murder, Robbery In Cumberland Slayings
Michael Bell, Jeremy Priel Each Face Same Counts
Posted: 12/21/2011
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/men-charged-with-murder-robbery-in-cumberland-slayings
Two men accused in the slayings of a Cumberland man and his 7-year-old niece were formally charged Wednesday.
Michael Bell, 22, and Jeremy Priel, 25, were charged with two counts each of murder and felony murder, and one count each of robbery and carrying a handgun without a license.
===
According to the probable cause affidavit, the investigation began when Jeremy Crane’s cellphone, which police said was stolen during the crime, was located two days after the slayings.
A woman told police she was riding IndyGo’s No. 8 bus along East Washington Street in Cumberland on the afternoon of Dec. 12 when a man dropped the cellphone.
When she pointed it out to him, he told her she could keep the phone, she said.
Surveillance video on the bus showed Bell and Priel get on that afternoon carrying a large bundle of items, according to the probable cause affidavit.
Police said along with Jeremy Crane’s cellphone, an Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 were stolen from the home.
When police searched the home where Bell had been staying, other residents said a woman who Bell had been sleeping with had given him a handgun, and that Bell was heard saying he wanted to rob a pizza delivery guy.
===
Two men came to Cumberland police Dec. 18 to say that they had bought an Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 from Jeremy Priel, paying $40 and an ounce of marijuana, according to the probable cause affidavit.
“The PlayStation 3 appeared to have had blood on it when they bought it, so as the news coverage of the homicide on Woodlark began to release information about their being an Xbox and PlayStation 3 taken, the men became suspicious and decided to contact police,” according to the probable cause affidavit.
===
When Priel was brought in for questioning, he told police Bell asked him to “go with him to a guy’s house to get some stuff,” and that Bell asked him to wait outside, according to the probable cause affidavit.
But police said video from the bus shows Priel trying to wipe his prints off a gun, which he later admitted to, investigators said.
After his arrest, Bell told police a different story, saying it was Priel who went into the house and that he waited outside, investigators said.
Family members said Bell and Jeremy Crane were best friends and former classmates at Warren Central High School.
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Why should blacks hold whites accountable for their psychological and social conditions of today? Why do blacks hate and distrust whites?
Because whites oppressed, enslaved, encircled, entrapped, whipped, tortured, hung, raped, denied alienable human rights, burned, condemned, jailed millions of innocent men and murdered over 8 million black human beings over the last 300 years….that’s why!
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Do you remember these children from Connecticut and the person who killed them. The worse mass killing of children in the history of our nation. Now do you still want to elude to murder and the skin color of the perpetrator or shall I continue to disprove their correlation?
Charlotte Bacon, Feb. 22, 2006
Daniel Barden, Sept. 25, 2005
Rachel Davino, July 17, 1983
Olivia Engel, July 18, 2006
Josephine Gay, Dec. 11, 2005
Ana M. Marquez-Greene, April 4, 2006
Dylan Hockley, March 8, 2006
Dawn Hochsprung, June 28, 1965
Madeleine F. Hsu, July 10, 2006
Catherine V. Hubbard, June 8, 2006
Chase Kowalski, Oct. 31, 2005
Jesse Lewis, June 30, 2006
James Mattioli, March 22, 2006
Grace McDonnell, Nov. 4, 2005
Anne Marie Murphy, July 25, 1960
Emilie Parker, May 12, 2006
Jack Pinto, May 6, 2006
Noah Pozner, Nov. 20, 2006
Caroline Previdi, Sept. 7, 2006
Jessica Rekos, May 10, 2006
Avielle Richman, Oct. 17, 2006
Lauren Rousseau, June of 1982
Mary Sherlach, Feb. 11, 1956
Victoria Soto, Nov. 4, 1985
Benjamin Wheeler, Sept. 12, 2006
Allison N. Wyatt, July 3, 2006
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@gridlockshire esquire
So, when white people commit horrific crime. What is their excuse?
Mental illness. Negro genes. What is the deal? Lol.
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@gridlockshire esquire
So, when white people commit horrific crimes. What is their excuse?
Mental illness. Negro genes. What is the deal? Lol.
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@Adonis
I agree with you. How come White people and many people think all Black people are bad and are prone to crime? I don’t understand it but MANY of the dangerous criminals in the world I have heard of happen to be White although there is many criminals in the Black, Hispanic and Asian races too. I just don’t get that logical.
The Black race isn’t more prone to criminal activity than anyone else.
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@Adeen
Racism is just an elevated form of tribalism.
Asians & Jews here practice a masterful form of tribalism.
Whites are on something else.
But they do it because they want to fight for their genetic survival & keep their system of white supremacy & privilege going.
The white bigot trolls here only have the myth of white supremacy going for them.
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“THEY THRIVE ON MONEY AND POWER. YOU STOP THE MONEY FROM FLOWING AND YOU TAKE BACK YOUR POWER”
BaM! That’s hitting the nail right on the head. TWICE! ….Nuff said…
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@Adonis and Adeen, you guys are 100% correct, the color of a mans skin has nothing to do with whether they will or will not be a criminal, a mass murderer, lazy, drug addict, racist, etc…In actuality minorities at least have a valid reason for their criminality and that is hundreds of years of social and economic oppression dealt out by white men in power and their constituents. If you beat a dog over and over again and eventually that dog bites you, it’s not the dogs fault, it’s yours. I get so upset when I see someone from my race who comes from a middle class or more prestigious environment complaining about minorities, losing their majority rule, not having a white history month, etc..How stupid can you be? Do you not have a sense of right and wrong? Do you not have one ounce of empathy in your tiny brain? My race has enjoyed complete rule and comfort for hundreds of years. Everyday is white history month, everyday is white sit com night, every day is make more money than the black man day, everyday is I live in the Brady Bunch neighborhood day, etc…How any person can not see the atrocities this country, and I mean white mans country, has imposed on the black community, including a ripple effect that continues to this day is beyond my comprehension.
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WB, “minorities” is a paternalistic term used by whites in the late civil rights & early affirmative action era. Unless the non-white is white-washed, he will probably avoid that term. It is very dis-empowering. Besides, in regions where whites are the “minority”, it is inaccurate as well.
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Thank you Jefe……..I truly did not know this but that’s one of the reasons I am here so much, to learn…
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@WB,
For your reference, you can look at this recent post
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@Jefe, wow this is going to be tough but I’m on board if it makes people feel better and makes me look less like some supreme idiot. I love the post, it is extremely helpful and I hope that one day they teach this in our schools.
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@Jefe…You just brought me back to a child when my step father explained to me that it was not appropriate for me to use the word colored people and to use the word black people instead. It was so hard for me to use that word for some reason, I thought it was blunt and the term colored people was much softer and polite. I just now, 40 years later, realized why it was so offensive, it makes us whites think the word black as being a bad or inappropriate word. Even at 7 years old I was programmed to think the word black was somehow offensive, WOW, excellent, thank you. If you haven’t read my earlier post my step father in the 70’s was black and if you can imagine the 70’s was a much different place regarding race, I believe it to be better now as far as race relations to be, but as far as being better for blacks I would not know and will leave that up to those blacks who have lived through both eras. Thanks again Jefe…
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So you know what was wrong with “Colored”. They used that word on the signs to separate people from whites into using facilities that were clearly unequal and less satisfactory. In some cases, there were only “Whites Only” facilities and none for colored. The use of “colored” implied “not allowed, not recognized, not served, etc.”
You have written extensively about your black stepfather. I remember the 70s very well. Yes, it was a different time, but actually, I feel that people were much more open about race back then. For some reason, after the 90s, it turned into a hush-hush topic, esp. among whites (“racist” somehow became the R-word). I cannot sure that much progress has occurred since the late 70s.
On this blog, if a person claims to be a non-white and uses extensive Euro-centric and white centric language, people will assume that they are very white-washed. If a white person does it, then, well, they are simply acting white, so no surprise.
Growing up in and adjacent to a city that was 72% black and 19% white in the 70s, I was trying to figure out why they used the term “minorities” to encompass what was essentially 81% of the population. Finally I figured out that it had nothing to do with numerical majority / minority, but a term to refer to the portion of the population that was disenfranchised. So, it was very disempowering. Then they promoted the term “model minority” to divide and conquer and let themselves off the hook. It is a very misused and somewhat even abusive term, esp. where it is used to refer what is the majority of the people in certain areas. The meaning has nothing to do with minority and is used by whites to refer to non-whites. So why don’t they just say non-white?
Canada uses the term “visible minority” but frankly, I am not comfortable with that term either.
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” It is a very misused and somewhat even abusive term, esp. where it is used to refer what is the majority of the people in certain areas. The meaning has nothing to do with minority and is used by whites to refer to non-whites. So why don’t they just say non-white? ”
********
Because in a universe ruled by racism, whiteness and white-supremacy – words matter! “Non-white” doesn’t have the same innuendo/force or psychological impact as “minority.” Minority is simply another way of saying lesser, least and MINOR social – class – status, minor person, least significant entity. The word sub-consciously or otherwise reinforces so-called white superiority/supremacy.
It’s telling how whites never describe themselves as “majorities” in the same way that they refer to OTHERS as “minorities.”
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Hence, I was trying to illustrate to WB about what it means to use the word “minority”.
Imagine if we used “majority” to refer to “white”.
“Our company instructed us to hire less majority people.”
“A lot of majority people have been moving out of my neighborhood. All my neighbors are non-majority.”
“Students are asking for a majority history month in school.”
“Why do all the majority people sit together in the cafeteria?”
“Nearly all Fortune 500 companies are headed by majority males.”
“Only two of the final 10 candidates belong to majority groups. The rest are non-majority.”
“We are seeing fewer men and majority judges in the courtroom nowadays.”
“More and more majority people are engaging in interracial marriage.”
“The teen was bullied by 3 older majority teens.”
😛
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“Minorities” makes my skin crawl. So does “inner city” and “sub-Saharan Africa”.
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I definitely understand what you are saying, I do not at this time believe it was done purposely but nothing surprises me about my race anymore. I also see your point about whites being hush hush about race and racism over the last 30 plus years and I think I have a theory. After the civil rights movement whites were so divided, those who supported blacks and whites who were either racist or just totally lacking empathy. Whites would not speak of race with each other, almost never, because they did not know how the other felt. Blacks opinions may vary on how you go forward but I would imagine that you are all unified in your experiences regarding racism and whites. That is so not true with whites, we are horribly divided and we get into extremely heated battles regarding the subject. You should see the facebook threads we have that go on and on for days, some using intelligent dialogue and others just using pure profanity, unable to explain their hatred or stupidity or back up their opinions with credible facts or emotion. We have gotten so divided that it is taboo to speak about racism in any form. For a long time after I realized as an adult that I was more aligned with Liberals/Democrats regarding politics I thought that I was part of a small group of whites and most whites were racist and conservative. However, since the 2008 election, my membership to Facebook and my new found voice regarding the discussion of politics and racism I have happily found that at least 50% of my race are in actuality HUMAN. I believe by discussing even the most rigid subjects regarding our relations and my races inexcusable behavior can only be educational and somewhat healing. I know that I suffer a great deal of guilt and always have since I was a child and found out about slavery and the treatment of blacks from whites. I felt so guilty that I was white and my step father was black and my race did this to his race. I am haunted by the fact I do not know what kind of white man I would have been 100 or 200 years ago…I would like to think I would be one of the brave white men or women who fought slavery and the horrible treatment of other human beings, however I am haunted by the fact I may have been weak of character and fell in line with all the rest of my white ancestors…Good day everyone and thank you for allowing me to join your discussions.
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Thank you everyone, I will choose my words very carefully and if i mess up please know it was not intentional…
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“I know that I suffer a great deal of guilt and always have since I was a child and found out about slavery and the treatment of blacks from whites. I felt so guilty that I was white and my step father was black and my race did this to his race. I am haunted by the fact I do not know what kind of white man I would have been 100 or 200 years ago…I would like to think I would be one of the brave white men or women who fought slavery and the horrible treatment of other human beings, however I am haunted by the fact I may have been weak of character and fell in line with all the rest of my white ancestors…”
* * * * * * *
I said this earlier in this thread. It warrants repeating. For those so-called white people who wish to dismantle racism; start with yourself. Give up your “white” club membership. Step out of it.
For example:
“Oh, you thought I was white? Yeah, I get that a lot! I know I look white but I’m actually _____ , I just look white, but I’m not really white! Blah, blah, yada, yada.”
If a critical mass of so-called white people did this then whiteness and its other race based categories over time would dissolve/disappear. Why? Because enough people leaving WHITENESS behind would render whiteness obsolete.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _
WHITE PEOPLE MUST STOP CLASSIFYING/BELIEVING THEMSELVES AS WHITE.
They are not, and never have been white – in any way, shape or form. It is a false idea (ideal) that feeds their delusions of racial grandeur.
Whiteness sees itself as better, smarter, wiser, stronger, less violent, more humane, and a host of other supposedly good attributes it does not (in reality) come close to living up to.
It’s my opinion that anyone believing themselves a member (or sympathizer) of the “white” club, or RACE, is complicit in the various machinations of racism/white supremacy …. whiteness.
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I will continue in my life to be conscience of what i say regarding my fellow human beings and what does and does not make them feel uncomfortable but in this case Matari I believe you are the one who is making the word white more than what it actually is, a word to identify two groups of people who are trying to understand each other. Instead of focusing on what words I am using try focusing on the content of my post…I will eventually learn what is and what is not insulting but I will not micro manage every single aspect of my post when my message is so abundantly clear…which you appear to choose to ignore.
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” in this case Matari I believe you are the one who is making the word white more than what it actually is, a word to identify two groups of people who are trying to understand each other.”
*************
I’m afraid that I’m not fully understanding what I’m reading here.
Are you saying that the word “white” is a word that identifies two groups of people that are trying to understand each other???
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My apologies…the word white is just a word to describe one of two groups of people who are trying to understand each other. I don’t know what other word you want me to use to describe the group of people who have the power and wealth and who have treated other groups of people atrociously, especially one group of people…now can you see that by not at least using some form of literature to describe the two groups how difficult it might be to understand what and who we are speaking of…Really think about the words used to describe the white race during our many conversations; evil, racist, murderers, rapist, Republican (joking), haters, supremacist, genocide, inhuman, inhumane, etc…These are the words I have identified with the color “white” on many of these post and the last word I would pair with the use of the word white is superior….
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William
I think you may be misunderstanding my intent here. You mentioned feelings of guilt and being haunted … regarding being WHITE.
I’m simply suggesting to you – and others of your ilk that may not enjoy their association with WHITENESS – one possible method of stepping away from that which is causing you pain and suffering.
It could ONE, potentially alleviate or minimize your guilt, and TWO, further dismantle WHITENESS, one brick at a time until a structural critical mass is achieved causing the whole construction to crash upon itself. The game only works if there are enough willing participants to play it. Take the players away and the game ceases.
What do YOU think?
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Again, my apologies Matari, I did misunderstand you and now I see exactly what you were trying to say. Yes this theory sounds like it would work. My association with the word white causes me pain and I/we need to move past this word that has been misused to subconsciously mean superior, elite, greater than others, etc… thank you for dumbing it down for me. My vocabulary is not near as comprehensive as most of you here and many of your comments whoosh right over my head so I appreciate your patience and your explanations.
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@Matari…it might take a few comments or one of your brilliant explanations but I do eventually catch up or catch on. I can only think by joining these discussions with people who are obviously highly intelligent I can only get smarter myself and no doubt learn more about my fellow countrymen and women.
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“….your brilliant explanations but I do eventually catch up or catch on. I can only think by joining these discussions with people who are obviously highly intelligent I can only get smarter myself and no doubt learn more about my fellow countrymen and women.”
* * * * * *
If you’re talking about brilliance and intelligence, no doubt you’re referring to folks like our resident genius, Randy. He’s the one role mode many of us here aspire to be like. A realist like no other.
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@WB,
You might be on to something here. Why don’t you do a post about it.
Pre-1960s, Americans were more divided over race. Post-80s, they were more divided over racism. In fact, even the major parties have a clear division on this issue. One side believes like it is still here and now, and the other side believes that it is past tense that there is no need to dwell on it. I must admit that when ever I run into a white American, I avoid this topic, but I do sprinkle a couple of ideas in to gauge where their political ideology might lie.
This could be one explanation why the word racist has become an R-word.
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@WB,
I wouldn’t quite put it as Matari does, but I think it might help if you consider not referring to “whites” as “my race”. It is a bit similar to using the word “minority”, as if you are trying desperately to point out how different you are from non-whites and use mid-20th century terminology to do that. About 30% of whites have significant non-European ancestry and maybe 90% of non-whites are part European. So, it is unclear what you are doing when you are having a dialogue and saying “my race” and “your race”. I feel like I am watching a 1960s Sidney Poitier movie.
And sad to say, terms like “people of the white race”, “people of the negro race” is also terminology that has been relegated to pre-60s white racist ideology, something you would find in 40s-50s textbooks and encyclopedias, where people could be categorized in simple biological categories based on race. It is *way* more complicated than that.
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Again, I appreciate the education and everyone’s willing to help me understand. I think that’s why I chose to receive email updates after using the site as a reference during one of my debates on Facebook. I read many of the post and found them so full of rich dialogue and deep emotion and I thought to myself; “What better way to learn more about racism than to join a group of people who are discussing it in depth and who many have been victims themselves. Rather than arguing with people that have, at best, a diluted and deniable definition of racism. Once again if I say something offensive please forgive me…
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WB, you can stop apologizing and asking for forgiveness and take a stand on something, or better yet, demonstrate that you can take something into action based on what you just learned. If you spend most of your time apologizing and asking for forgiveness, then people might not take you as seriously, esp. if you apologize and then do something which you just apologized about. For example, you cannot claim to be raised in a biracial part-black family in an attempt to show how you can empthasize, then use very white-centric “racist” language in talking to non-whites (eg, “minority”) and expect to maintain a high degree of credibility. If you apologize, yet then do the very same thing (a behavior that you just apologized for) again, it erodes your credibility even further.
That is why I suggested you consider doing a post on a topic that you do know and understand well – eg, the bifurcation of post-civil rights white ideologies, and why “racist” has become an “r-word” for many whites. It is a problem in being white that perhaps some non-whites might not fully understand or appreciate. It is a problem that many whites know about, but are afraid to speak about. There are some experiences and insights that you have that can build your credibility on the topic of “anti-racism”.
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@Jefe, understood and I accept your challenge of sorts regarding the post…thank you.
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Profound!
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Hey you guys, I’m new here; really, really enjoy Abagond’s blog and many of the great contributions of the commentators. I’ve been reading it for a while now without commenting. You guys post like water, it’s hard to keep up.
I’m gonna have to agree with what Solesearch said, there’s nothing stopping us but our own lack of organisation. Poverty is really where the first problem is, being proactive and organized in building for ourselves, as opposed to waiting for White people to dismantle institutional White supremacy, is the second problem.
There have been a few cases where White men have performed this experiment for the wrong reasons, and innocent Black males were arrested for crimes they didn’t commit. Thank God for the advent of forensics and DNA. Lol.
As for White guilt: past empathy for human beings, I think “guilt” is something you shouldn’t harbour, just because you were born White. Personally, I even believe giving up White privilege or any privilege isn’t practical, in a general sense. In feminism they speak about male privilege. But, just for example, say as a man you make more than your female coworkers do, you wouldn’t feel the need to boycott getting your paycheck for the sake of rejecting male privilege. Whatever your privilege is, as long as you don’t participate in the oppression of others, and you acknowledge and speak out about inequalities when you encounter them, and stand by those who are being oppressed, instead of sitting back comfortable in the benefits of your privilege, there’s nothing more you can do.
Speaking of people being someone else, Abagond, have you checked out the tt #kanyesoundslike on “Black twitter,” which came about as a result of the extreme difference in his speech when he was interviewed on the Kris Kardashian show? It was funny. He said things like, “she’s my joy.” and “there’s a place of love and open-ness to freely discuss my love for Kim K on this show.” I’m not sure if you like to keep it academic at all times, such a thing might be below you, but there was a racial element to his cheerleading for Kim and the sudden huuuge difference in his speech and manner. The Kris interview is on yt; you should check out Paul Mooney Jr’s video on Kanye, where he alluded to the role Kanye would end up playing for the Kardashians, as a brotha. Lol.
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I have a feeling I am really going to like Ebonymonroe…Glad to meet you.
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Awww, thanks baby. Glad to meet you too.
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Reblogged this on JD Windman and commented:
Very interesting
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So I guess we are supposed to give this guy some type of a pass or sympathy or something because he found that Black people aren’t lying when we talk about racism?
Am I supposed to care? Fuck him and that German.
That’s white people for you, though. Completely oblivious to the hell they have always caused until they step into shoes that they will never have the fucking balls to walk in.
No kudos from me.
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Reblogged this on The Lion of the Tribe of Judah and commented:
And what about the ones who can’t just take off their Black skin on a whim? None of this is OUR fault. It is their own. They have turned Black people into the demons that they are.
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Just in case anyone cared, Josh Solomon is NOT in blackface, (technically), he ingested man made chemicals to achieve blackness, unlike theatrical makeup, therefore this is FRANKEN-Blackface not blackface. Not automatically racist, but POTENTIALLY racist.
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The fact that he couldn’t last a week as a faux black man is hilarious. White people don’t know how good they have it.
I am one of the most racially ambiguous people you will ever meet. White people often act afraid of me when I walk down paths and secluded streets and there is no one else around. Being 6′ and racially ambiguous but most probably not white can be just as scary to them because fear is often based dread of the unknown. When people think I’m a Latino male, they assume I’m involved in a gang, including other Latino gang members. Being asked if I speak Spanish or aggressively stared at by heavily tattooed gang members who proudly announce their affiliation is not for the weak hearted. But I often get that same treatment from Asian gang members when I go back home to the urban Bay Area since I am half Asian. Having a group of Asian males wearing baggy all blue clothes scream at you “what’s your nationality?!” across the street in an area nearby somewhere known for gang violence is not for the faint of heart.
When white people assume I’m half-black, then suddenly it all makes sense to them why I talk, dress and act the way I do. Growing up in a predominantly black environment has nothing to do with it in their eyes. To them, culture is the result of racial genetics (which do not exist), not a lifestyle that comes from a place, not a race.
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William Bentley,
From your own mouth you said you have WHITE skin.
Yet at the same time you call other HUMAN being friend
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William Bentley,
In your own WHITE mind you believe that you’re different from your fellow
WHITE bigot who hold so many DEHUMANIZED, HATEFUL and NEGATIVE
belief towards NONwhite people.
Let’s me tell you that you’re part of the problem which I identify as the WHITE evil and IMMORAL belief towards NONwhites.
You said that you have a WHITE skin. European skin colour I rather see as
PINK-GREY or PALE.
Nonetheless for the sake of making my point I will go along with the fact that
you have a skin that is WHITE just like your w WHITE mother !.
But how come you’re not calling yourself, your mother and your fellow
WHITES people of COLOUR. Isn’t WHITE a colour?: Other HUMAN beings
are people of colour but non the ones with WHITE skin COLOUR!
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