Monday July 1st 2013 in America was Day Six of the George Zimmerman murder trial. Zimmerman, a neighourhood watchman in Sanford, Florida, shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in 2012. Zimmerman says it was self-defence, that he feared for his life. Martin was unarmed while black.
Last week we heard from Rachel Jeantel, a friend of Martin’s who talked to him on her mobile phone just minutes before he died. It is the closest thing we have of Martin’s side of the story. Martin said that a creepy white man was following him, then was right behind him, then:
Martin: What you following me for?
Zimmerman: What you doing around here?
*bump, grass sounds*
Martin: Get off.
The call goes dead.
Yesterday, on Day Six, the two police officers who questioned Zimmerman that night took the stand. They played recordings of some of the questioning. They showed (edited) video of Zimmerman’s reenactment of the shooting. It allowed Zimmerman to tell his side of the story without taking the stand and being questioned.
I followed part of the trial on CNN and Twitter:
- Twitter: Those I follow noticed holes in Zimmerman’s story, thought he was lying.
- CNN pointed how forthright Zimmerman was, how maybe he was a man of faith, how great his lawyer was (“They will be teaching this in law school.”)
Chris Serino, the lead detective, said he believed Zimmerman was telling the truth, that the inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s answers point to poor memory, not lying.
They played a tape of when Serino questioned Zimmerman on the night of the shooting. It was brief. Serino seemed to see Zimmerman as the victim, offered him help, did not doubt anything Zimmerman said, almost answered the questions for him. He allowed Zimmerman to go to work the next day. Both men acted like killing Trayvon Martin was no big deal.
Serino did, however, question Zimmerman at length a few days later. The sound quality was so bad that CNN played little of it. Serino asked Zimmerman if he would have done the same thing if Martin had been white. Zimmerman said yes. Serino moved on.
Zimmerman says that Martin “jumped out of the bushes” and then:
Martin: What the fuck is your problem, homie?
Zimmerman: I don’t have a problem.
Martin: No, now you have a problem.
And then throws the first punch. They are down on the ground, Martin gets on top, punches away at Zimmerman’s face. Then Martin covers Zimmerman’s nose and mouth and says:
Martin: You are going to die tonight.
He begins banging Zimmerman’s head on the paved walkway. Zimmerman pulls out his gun and shoots him. Martin falls backwards:
Martin: Alright, you got me, you got me.
Remarks:
- There were no bushes to jump out of.
- “You got me!”, etc, sounds too Hollywood. Quite unlike the 911 tape of pitiful screams for help cut short by gunfire
- Why would Martin want to kill him? Zimmerman left something out – or assumes the Black Brute stereotype.
See also:
Abagond:
What is your, prediction of the verdict? Do you think George will get acquitted? Convicted? or a slap on the wrist?
couple years in jail but gets released early for good behavior and time served? You see that a lot with people accused of killing a black person but not the other way around.
What say you?
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He will get off. I would be surprised if he got more than five years in prison.
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Yeah, that’s pretty much consistent, how black people’s lives are not seen as worthy as white people’s lives.
white or none-white person kills a black person, bare minimum sentence, black person or other minority kills a white person, maximum sentence.
Do you also notice, when black people, kill other black people, its also a maximum sentence, not because the life of the black person killed is worthy of such a sentence, its because the killer is black.
Black people are screwed, either way by being a victim or the perpetrator.
I also saw a clip on CNN, that a Asian woman, cut off a white man’s penis ( aka Lorianna Bobbitt ) gets life in prison!!!
Lorianna Bobbitt didn’t get life….i wonder if it had anything to do with the fact that she was white and this woman is Asian!!
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/crime/2013/06/29/pkg-woman-sentenced-for-severing-mans-penis.kcal.html
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@ Sondis
Even in high school blacks are more likely to be punished and are punished more strictly than whites.
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abagond:
absolutely!
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The Trayvon Martin case is a metaphor for the state of racial relations in the US today, and the Rachel Jeantel chapter crystallizes that metaphor perfectly.
In the Trayvon case, we have essentially two sets of parallel facts.
Set one: Trayvon, a teenage boy engaged in the wholly innocent pursuit of a leisurely walk back to the home of his host, carrying some recent convenience store purchases and enjoying a phone call with a female friend. Zimmerman, a wanna-be cop/vigilante, on the prowl for black kids in his neighborhood, armed with a Tec 9 and looking for a chance to make himself a neighborhood hero. He spots Trayvon and is suspicious of him almost solely because Trayvon is black, so he confronts Trayvon, creates conflict that escalates into a fight, and then shoots the kid in the heart. All for the crime of being black and walking through the neighborhood.
Set two: Zimmerman sees Trayvon in his neighborhood and questions him about why he is there. Zimmerman doesn’t address Trayvon in a civilized and reasoned manner. Instead, he is hostile, aggressive and accusatory. Though this is a breach of etiquette, it may not be illegal. Trayvon takes the bait. Instead of diffusing the situation, Trayvon, annoyed by the weird cracker bothering him, unleashes a can of whuppass on Zimmerman, whereupon Zimmerman defends himself with a gun, which might be legal under Florida law.
I may not be 100% right, but I think those two sets of facts are fairly close to reality here. Which set you consider relevant depends on your point of view. Big picture is that it’s clear that Zimmerman harbored visions of being a neighborhood hero, and that he profiled Trayvon because of race, bumbled into a fight, and ended up creating a situation which Trayvon is dead, all solely because of Trayvon’s race.
Rachel Jeantel figures into this because the defense’s strategy is, essentially, to convince the jury that Trayvon “needed killing”. It has always been an unfortunate reality that in many criminal cases, the victim ends up being on trial as much as the accused (Exhibit A being the William Kennedy Smith rape trial, where Kennedy successfully defended himself by painting his victim as a jaded barfly who got what she asked for).
But I digress. The defense strategy is premised on the thesis that white people don’t like black people. The defense doesn’t really care what Rachel Jeantel actually says. The whole nation already knows what Jeantel heard.The defense strategy has been to keep Jeantel on the stand as long as possible and bait her into conflict. They are banking on the idea that her defensive and combative nature, coupled with her obesity, partial illiteracy, heavy vernacular speech, and overall physiognomy will be repulsive to the white jury, and that this repulsion will transfer to Trayvon, leading to a jury that will see only fact set 2, ignoring fact set 1.
It is so utterly cynical, yet so effective in this “post-racial” America, where many white people simply don’t like black people but, because of our PC culture, don’t say so outright. Instead, they manifest this sentiment in other, more subtle ways. A “not guilty” verdict in the Zimmerman case would be such a way.
I may be surprised here. If I am, then at least these jurors are more “post-racial” than I expect. But my gut is that Zimmerman is going to hear a “not guilty” from this jury at the end of the trial. It would be an utter travesty of justice in my opinion, and not just for Trayvon. It would be an indictment of our entire nation’s moral position on issues of race, because in the end there is no rational justification for Zimmerman shooting Trayvon unless you are willing to believe that Trayvon “needed killing”, which would be based solely on his race.
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I wonder what the aftermath of this verdict will be.
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jefe:
“I wonder what the aftermath of this verdict will be.”
Outrage and further distrust of the justice system by black people in Florida and in America.
There is and always were a pattern of not, punishing a none-black person for killing a black person, to the full extent of the law in America.
Only when the person is black, the full extent of the law is applied, when the murderer is black and the victim is black.
I can guarantee, that 99% of black people would poll, Gorge will get off with a short sentence of say, 5 years as abagond guessed. ( slap on the wrist )
He’ll get convicted of the more, lesser charge of manslaughter, opposed to Murder in the 1st.
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I added a third Remark: that Zimmerman’s story hangs together only because of the Black Brute stereotype.
Jenteal’s account, along with Zimmerman’s call to the police and his past history, makes it plain how the fight got started – Zimmerman is a wannabe cop taking the law into his own hands. He even calls Martin a “suspect” and pursues him against police instructions.
In Zimmerman’s account, however, Martin comes out of nowhere and wants to kill him – without motive. Pure Black Brute stereotype: the idea that blacks are violent “because they are black”.
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abagond:
They even caught Zimmerman in a lie, saying he said to a detective that Treyvon jumped out form bushed but in the video made by police, Zimmerman was walking through the crime scene, he never mentioned anything in the video about Treyvon jumping from bushes.
That statement doesn’t even make any sense, why in hell would Treyvon be waiting in bushes to attack him??? He’s walking to his fathers house from the store, what reason would he have to ambush, Zimmerman???
Zimmerman’s story has more holes than Swiss cheese but i won’t be one bit surprised that an almost all white female jury with one one minority, ( mixed black woman) will ignore everything and focus on the, Black Brute stereotype.
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*And just like the Hollywood movie*-Zimmerrat will get off. (I really hope this is not the case-but who are we kidding here. I’m not holding my breath for GUILTY.
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@ Sondis
If Zimmerman said Trayvon was trying to ROB him then Zimmerman’s story might make sense, especially if Trayvon had a history of robbing people. Otherwise it is Susan Smith all over again, she who said some black man drowned her children. You know, because black men are like that, killing people they do not know for no apparent reason.
Even worse Serino, the lead detective, BELIEVED Zimmerman. Zimmerman can say whatever jacked-up sh*t he wants, but police detectives are supposed to see through that sort of thing. It is like their JOB.
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@ lifelearner
Right, given the jury I doubt they will find him guilty of murder.
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I wouldn’t put it past Zimmerman to have self-inflicted his own wounds on the back of his head.
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@Sondis
That is the current situation, not the aftermath I was referring to. I mean will there be riots, demonstrations against “stand your ground” law, etc.
All I can say is, come on, Trayvon was an unarmed minor. Zimmerman followed and approached him in defiance of the 911 dispatcher’s advice. Please tell me how Zimmerman could be fearing for his life. If I was in Trayvon’s shoes, I would be fearing for mine.
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Sad part is a lot of people beliece that mess without question. He has told so many lies it is ridiculous. Things that make no damn sense at all. I can’t watch it. It is just a complete mockery.
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@jefe
There could be riots and there could be a plot to kill zimmerman for those who have no care of taking a life.
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I keep wavering from my determination to not watch the trial, to watching it. Like nearly all day yesterday. I’m pretty sure that GZ will either walk away free or get a slap on the wrist. I will be absolutely surprised if anything else happens.
I’m not pleased with the prosecution, unless they have some amazing ish yet to be revealed, they just don’t seem like they are trying very hard. So I guess that’s why I’ll probably continue watching. I want to see if the prosecution does its absolute utmost. I was telling myself it was their case to lose, because there are ample opportunities to not only highlight GZ’s lies and storytelling but to emphasize and reiterate Trayvon’s humanity and victimization.
Especially to an all-female jury. “What if this was your son?” those type of angles. But so far, I’m not seeing anything that is worthy of standing up for the life of a human being needlessly and brutally cut short.
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Sharina:
You think this is bad?
Picture this same situation, being played out in every city in America for 100’s of years. Do you think black people are normal as a result of criminalization over such a long period?
They have every disorder in the book for white folks and always apply them, whenever someone white kills other whites.
I watched a documentary on PBS.com last night about the teenager that killed 20 children and 6 adults in the sandy hook elementary school in my hometown of Connecticut.
“Program: FRONTLINE
Episode: Raising Adam Lanza
In the wake of the mass killings at Sandy Hook Elementary School, FRONTLINE investigates a young man and the town he changed forever. In collaboration with “The Hartford Courant,” FRONTLINE looks for answers to the central – and so far elusive – question: Who was Adam Lanza? ”
Who was Adam Lanza? are you serious? wow.. They gave this sicko all kinds of mental disorders…aka excuses, passes for what he did, therefore he was not accountable for his actions.
The way the documentary was made, you would have thought, Adam Lanza was one of the dang victims for crying out loud! They turned all their anger, toward the gun manufacturers, instead of one of their own!
Had Adam Lanza, been a black man, they would have attacked hip hop rappers and gang violence!
Had the boy lived, he would have probably lived out the rest of his days in a cosy, maximum security mental facility for the insane, not prison!
I think its black people that fit the profile of all these disorders, being we live in a hostile environment, every single day of our lives, not white people that for the most part, live a life without not nearly the amount of stress, trials and tribulations as black people go through, yet white people get “diagnosed” with all the disorders and black people just get written off as violent and unstable, naturally.
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@sonids
“Only when the person is black, the full extent of the law is applied, when the murderer is black and the victim is black.”
Very true, here is another case of stand ur ground this time it was a black man defending himself in his own yard and he is serving life.http://www.theroot.com/category/views-tags/black-georgia-man-stand-your-ground
If/when George gets off this is proof stand ur ground only works if u are not black.
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Sondis, there’s at least one major difference between that case and the John and Lorena Bobbitt case. In the Bobbitt case, they were able to re-attach it and he made a full recovery (as I recall, he even did a porn video afterwards to prove it). In the case with Catherine Q, she destroyed it in a garbage disposal, so there is no recovery possible, ever. Those are very different circumstances.
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if/ when George gets off these are things I think ppl will learn from it if they haven’t already.
1. America don’t care about black ppl not just George bush
2. I’ve seen more outrage from whites over the dogs killed and tortuered by Michael vick than this case
3. the jury is full of white women and if/when they let George off it will prove white women are not less racist than white men they just hide it better
4. there will probably be riots but Imo instead of rioting get ur passports ready because all rioting will do is make whites more on edge and be willing to arrest and shoot black ppl at random.
5. This seems to be a mock trial the prosecution is hardly trying
6. I’ve only seen this kind of covering up for cops and celebrities not for a civilian
7. if the mob was able to pay off the police it wouldn’t be a stretch to think George’s father being a judge holds some value to his trial.
8. light skinned latinos are just as racist as whites and whites will give them cover maybe one day will give them white membership
9. I will not be surprised if George gets off as this is the same state that let casey Anthony off for killin her child. if they let a white woman off for killing her white child its not a stretch to think they will let a white lookin man off for killing a black child.
10. A black person will always be on trial even if they are the victim or the victims friend and not the murder heck even if they the dam rescuer[Charles ramsey]
11. they always have an all white jury when there is race involved
12. There is not much difference between now and the good ole days
13. black ppl need to leave this country and start over else where
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Keith D:
That’s bull, the intent was the same and the so called, “difference” that you pointed out, isn’t “major”. You’re reaching and failed, miserably.
You see how white people, always try to point to EVERYTHING, other than race being the reason for unequal justice?
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Indeed, even if Zimmerman is free, he will never be free.
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mstoogood4yall:
Yeah, i read about that case, awhile ago. The white man had a knife and came at the black man on his own, property.
Stand your ground laws were made by white people for white people to justify killing and getting away with killing black people.
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Maybe Zimmerman and casey Anthony can spend their lives together in hiding. sondis yea I noticed whites always say oh no its not race its xyz. ok anything to make u feel better. idc what they say we know the truth let them wallow in their lies and hate I don’t care about them. yes sondis they did make these laws for them by them. which is why they don’t work for us but against us. then they change the laws when it starts to affect them like marijuana see how they trying to make it legal now that whites are using it more. I still don’t know how assatua shakur is a terrorist when she killed a cop but whites kill a bunch of ppl with assault rifles and ish and get called mentally unstable not terrorists wtf. George killed trayvon on a sidewalk which is a public space. that black man killed that white man on his property. Double standard at its best. idc abour florida or Georgia, florida let guilty ppl off and Georgia imprisons and executes innocent ppl.
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Zimmerman will get off. And Black people will riot. It is what it is… We really need to come up with other options.
I do fast and pray that Zimmerman is killed violently in some kind of way to pay for his crime.
But I must ask any person what they would do if a stranger approached them in the night what would they do? What do you teach your children about talking to strangers?
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@ serenity
if a stranger approaches me I would run. I don’t have kids but my parents always told me to not talk to strangers and run away. which is what imo trayvon did. the ppl that try to say he should’ve stopped are racist, because if they teach their kid to run away and not talk to strangers, but they wanted trayvon to do the opposite they crazy. They long for the good ole days when blacks needed a pass from massa to leave the plantation, and when blacks would be beaten or killed if caught in their neighborhood after the sun goes down.
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@ serenity
as for the other options instead of rioting I say leave the country or if ppl gonna riot don’t destroy ur own neighborhoods…..
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During the second interview with the investigator GZ said “THOSE SCREAMS DON’T EVEN SOUND LIKE ME”,the court went to recess.When they came back ,the prosecutor repeated this for the jury.The media has totally ignored that statement.
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Very disappointed that everyone tries to shove this story into the black-white mold. Zimmerman is clearly Hispanic (there are tons of light skinned Mexicans, since they are a mix between Aztec and Spaniards anyway). If you did anything good–graduated from a great school, got a scholarship, got a job, people would put him down under the Hispanic category, so why is he white now? There will be more and more black vs. Hispanic violence as whites are replaced by Hispanics as the majority of the future (maybe in most of our lifetimes). There were gang fights back at my high school with riot police and helicopters when the blacks and Hispanics threw down. Good times.
The analysis by Blanc2 is spot on. However, I think legally speaking if there is a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman committed murder, he gets off. Lesser charge and 5 years or less served makes sense, absent some strong evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. That should be the case if the races are reversed (the jury would then hear an ignorant sounding Zimmerman calling his pursuer the N word in that case, and would have a bloblike, combatative ESL Latina gf), but I guess how I can see that you could doubt how that would play out (but, what if the jury were 5 blacks and 1 Hispanic in that case?). I actually could care less about the verdict, as I think both parties were gravely at fault. Zimmerman was probably more at fault, but whether he technically committed murder is questionable.
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I’ve been following your blog for a while but; Trayvon is from Miami and we do not say homie down here. This is not the west coast and he is not spanish. Certain parts of Miami talk certain ways. And how Trayvon Martin said homie sounds so false. We would use totally different words. He was from the same part of Miami I was from and everyone basically talks the same.
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I was just talking to my fiance about the Paula Deen news, and asked him some real questions on how he felt about how he feels, he gets treated in everyday life as a black man. He made a good point, when you create something, you as the creator usually have an advantage in using your creation – the U.S European based laws…who were they created by? Not us. Given the illusion that the law is out there to protect us. All I know is, as time goes by, and my awareness is more pristine, the more that illusion is just a plain lie, and racism is just as prevalant as it was back then. It just got glazed the **** over. Thats why this subject, is still sensitive matter to speak of.
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yes we know George is latino his mother is Peruvian and his father is white. but technically he is white latino because latino is not a race it’s a culture. Even if he is latino why would whites want to defend him, because that is who I mostly see on the news defending him and giving money to his defense fund not latinos. If white ppl don’t see George as white then why are they wasting so much energy into trying to prove him as innocent? Obviously white people care because if they didn’t they’d ignore it as oh well its a latino killing a black so idc if he goes to prison, but they do care that George could go to prison. THey just don’t care that it was a black person killed. Yes some latinos are just as racist as whites it was a Cuban girl after all that was in that vid on youtube with those white girls calling black ppl the n word and things. A lot of them want to be claimed as white and will join in with them in being racist toward black people.
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And in completely unrelated news…..
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@ Lici
Thanks. I was wondering about that. It struck me as made-up too.
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Agabond, the black brute theme — exactly right. That is the defense strategy in a nutshell. Without Trayvon to rebut the Zimmerman version of events in the moments prior to the killing, and no eyewitnesses either, the jury is free to believe Zimmerman if that is what they want to do.
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Abagond, Biff is back? Is he supposed to be here? What’s going on?
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Zimmermann is a liar and the perfect example of a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (called “Perversion Narcissique” in French).
He lies, he perverts (turns around) everything, tries to make us (doesn’t work with most except racists who have the same troubled personality) believe Trayvon did what HE did.
And the media are giving him the worst that can be given to someone: a pedestal and a throne. He is presently in heaven.
He knows everyone is watching, and still shows no remorse, no scrupules, no shame at all. The things he says are incredible (in the first sense of the word) and unbelievable, but he tries to persuade us that we are the ones who don’t understand.
We should all ignore him for the sick man he is as we should ignore all racists. But we can’t, because that’s what racism is about.
I am not in the US anymore and haven’t had the opportunity to connect and watch some of it, but what you’re reporting about what CNN says is in accordance with someone’s FB page I’ve been reading to get info, because his analysis is simple and clear.
This is so revealing of Amerikkka’s racism it’s crazy… (and yes, there is racism elsewhere and just as bad, but this trial is extraordinary for what it is showing. They are letting one of the craziest reveal it all.
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@ Sondis
“Who was Adam Lanza? are you serious? wow.. They gave this sicko all kinds of mental disorders…aka excuses… ”
It’s a way of promulgating the idea that he was an outlier or an individual not representative of all white males. White males have worked too hard to keep a good image to let 99% of the school shooters mess it up. They are hoping you will continue to associate them with Jesus and Santa Clause, not crazies like Lanza. And since they own most of the media, they can make it happen.
“Yes some latinos are just as racist as whites…A lot of them want to be claimed as white and will join in with them in being racist toward black people.”
I would just substitute “some” with “many.” I’ve witnessed more overt racism against Afro Latinos in Latin America than in the US, and when they immigrate to the US, the racism continues. Too bad these white wannabes will never be accepted by WASPs in America….
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I meant “someone like him” ^
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I believe that Trayvon Martin was racially profiled by George Zimmerman because Trayvon was just walking back home from buying Skittles and Ice tea for his little brother. I believe that George Zimmerman is a racist. The truth is many Latinos are racists. I live next to one and I can’t stand that woman or her children. Her daughter acts like she is better than me because she has fair skin and straight hair and has this superiority complex.
I don’t hate Latinos. I actually like them and see them as a apart of the Black Community but I just hate the ones who live next to me
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I think the mostly white female jury will have reasonable doubt that Zimmerman had any ill-will toward Martin even though Zimmerman called him a punk and asshole as he was running away. Furthermore, the best witness for the prosecution is black and has an ‘accent’! It has been proven in studies that Americans consider a person with an accent to be less credible even when they’re repeating mundane facts. This is likely to be a factor, among other things. I’d be surprised if there’s a 2nd degree murder conviction. It’ll be manslaughter or acquittal. Likely the former, IMO.
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Adeen,
Part of the black community? How so? Most of the ones who actually are black don’t even claim to be black.
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I doubt GZ will be convicted. The only way I could see him being convicted is if there was some physical evidence or eye witness testimony that what he says is untrue.
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@Solesearch
You are correct about many Afro Latinos not claiming their Black roots but I believe that Latino is a sub group of the Black race. Many Latinos have Black ancestry and Blacks are the ones who shaped their culture. Without Black people, the Hispanic culture wouldn’t be what it is today. I am sorry I confused Black Community with Black race. The Black Community in AmeriKKKlan doesn’t make up the Black race. Most Blacks live in the world live in the Caribbean, Brazil, Latin America and Africa.
Plus my family from both sides of the family is from Jamaica and Cuba isn’t far from Jamaica either. Plus many of my family member intermarried with Cubans way before Castro became the ruler of Cuba in 1959. Hispanics aren’t much different from Black people at all. They just speak Spanish.
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@ solesearch
I don’t know if I believe he will even be convicted with that.
@ Adeen
I would have to agree with solesearch regarding Hispanics. Not all see themselves as black and they can be very racist.
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Hmm. I’m constantly amazed at just how openly disingenuous some people can be. They don’t even try to hide their disregard for evidence of the truth, or, of how things most probably played out according to that evidence versus how they played out according to their own prejudices.
They seem to have an uncanny ability to acknowledge but then to conveniently cast aside as unimportant all evidence which does not suit them or jibe with their desired outcome.
For these types, it is obvious that regardless of what actually happened that night, Trayvon Martin is and will remain in their minds, a symbol of the despised black boogeyman of their worst nightmares, while Zimmerman will forever be the noble knight (one like themselves of course) who took the black boogeyman down.
With Trayvon’s death (or his murder IMO), they, as far as they’re concerned, can chalk up one for the ‘good guys’ (white society / non-Blacks in general), as one of their number has made sure that still another ‘bad guy’ (any black male of any age, engaged in any type of activity, will do) bites the dust,
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I do believe that George Zimmerman has a 50/50 chance of getting convicted. I really hope he gets convicted for racially profiling and killing Trayvon Martin. Did you hear about the book, George Zimmerman’s father has out? He claims that Blacks are the true racists such as NAACP and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. SMH.
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Between the Paula Deen madness and this sham of a trial that I could probably prosecute better myself (and I am not a lawyer)….
All of this is so mentally taxing for me.
I’m emotionally drained and can’t even bring myself to watch TV news shows broadcasting it.
It seems to be that if you really want to know where race relations have gone since CIvil RIghts, just watch the REASONS high profile cases are high profile. We as a country are obsessed with race and whites are obsessed with proving they aren’t racist–using racist thoughts and deeds.
I’m convinced of that now. There is so much hatred that boils to the surface when things like this happen. I believe that it just reflects the very painful reality to blacks here that it isn’t really “our America.”
We have been shown this time and time again and the racist psychology of the white race is mind boggling and absolutely impossible to dissect.
The fact that they essentially can TAKE OUT THEIR RACIST thoughts and feelings through action — stereotyping, unfair promotion and hiring practices, law enforcement– we just don’t have the upper hand and it just seems that you WOULD have to pack up and leave to rid yourself of this societal abuse–or stand and fight.
I’ll end with this.
For all you white ppl out there who think that every racist thought and utterance, every sneer at black folk and black folk achievement, every piece of racial poison you are spoon fed by the corporate owned media– all those little secrets you keep PC in the back of your brain aren’t just in hiding, they are feeding into a spiritual consciousness that will give it right back. Energy is neither created not destroyed and there is always something greater doin’ the “balancing act.”
I am a believer in births and rebirths and every soul that came here to live as a white person in this time and space had better aspirations than the fluckery that is being exhibited by white systemic oppressors world wide. It’s time for you to get your ppl in check IN PUBLIC and really try to cleanse yourselves of the disease of privilege you participate in and whether you like it or not, benefit from.
I just…..it just does not seem to be getting better for black folk. Just more stuff goes unsaid, but the statistics never show growth. White ppl don’t want to take responsibility for righting this sinking ship–but it’s not our responsibility to help you do anything or feel better about anything. So if you really sincere about helping somebody–open up your mouths and start talking to other white ppl.
SK
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I agree with Abagond that Zimmerman’s account sounds like some silly Hollywood script. The man is a crazy, paranoid, wife beating murderer and I pray that he gets convicted because there’s no doubt in my mind that he is guilty. Shame on all who would put Trayvon on trial and try to build him up to be some type of OJ Simpson at 17 years of age. Now you know if it were a black man up on that stand – sorry I have to go here – but you know GZs inconsistencies would be seen for what they are BLATANT LIES. He profiled, followed, confronted then pushed Trayvon and the young man fought back with all he had. I’m glad. If there’s a hell, may GZ roast in it.
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Adeen,
Latino culture was shaped by Spanish, Indian, and black culture. It’s is inaccurate to label them a subgroup of the Black race or anyone a subgroup of any other race. Many have black ancestry, but not all and the majority of them that do don’t recognized it. Most latin countries are just as racist as the U.S..
Most African Americans have European ancestry, but we aren’t a subgroup of Europeans. Most African-Americans don’t claim that ancestry and don’t identify with white people. It’s the same with Latinos and Blacks.
Most Latino people identify their race as white. That’s why I don’t understand(I, actually, understand it quite well) all this objecting to classifying GZ as a white Latino. Latino racism against Blacks stems from white supremacy.
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@ poetess
ANd speaking of the oj simpson stuff, i saw a news clip where they were interviewing nicole simpsons sister about tryavon and the interviewer said “the martin family has to be ready for a not guilty verdict, a verdict that u heard.” These people are to trying to get revenge for oj getting off.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=411ycOHB_0k)
@ the 3:19 mark
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resw77:
“It’s a way of promulgating the idea that he was an outlier or an individual not representative of all white males. White males have worked too hard to keep a good image to let 99% of the school shooters mess it up. They are hoping you will continue to associate them with Jesus and Santa Clause, not crazies like Lanza. And since they own most of the media, they can make it happen.
“Yes some latinos are just as racist as whites…A lot of them want to be claimed as white and will join in with them in being racist toward black people.”
I would just substitute “some” with “many.” I’ve witnessed more overt racism against Afro Latinos in Latin America than in the US, and when they immigrate to the US, the racism continues. Too bad these white wannabes will never be accepted by WASPs in America….”
You just confirmed, what i already knew and believe.
SugarKiss:
Long time, no see, woman. I miss you ^_^
Question:
Do you think, black people can escape racism by leaving America? I am skeptical, being white supremacy is global and not just an American, Phenomenon.
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@Peanut
Zimmerman is a racist I agree but I don’t see why he felt he did the right thing killing Trayvon Martin? Trayvon was a Black kid minding his own business and walking back to his father’s place to give his little brother, Skittles and Ice tea. Zimmerman should have listened to the dispatcher and stayed in his car instead of taking matters in his own hands and killing Trayvon. Yes he was racially profiling Trayvon because he thought it was suspicious for a Black guy to be walking out in the rain with a hood on by himself.
If Trayvon was White, it wouldn’t happen this way. Trust me.
@Solsearch
Latinos aren’t White. I know they are a mixture of Black, Indigenous Indian and Spaniard and other races but Latinos often times downplay their Black roots as well as their Indigenous roots too. Many of them want to assimilate into the White American society so they downplay their Black and indigenous ancestry. George Zimmerman isn’t White either nor is he a White Latino.
I heard that the Latin people from Spain are White but I am not entirely sure on that because many Latin people from Spain I have seen were brown.
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@Peanut
You damn straight he’s lying and of course nobody is going to admit to being a racist after killing a black kid. Co’mon, just silly. Zimmerman was obsessed with blacks being criminals and was itching for a chance to hunt down and murder a black person. He’s a mentally unstable person and I predict if he gets off he will kill again.
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“Do you think, black people can escape racism by leaving America? I am skeptical, being white supremacy is global and not just an American, Phenomenon.”
No. Black people cannot escape racism by leaving any particular country. Even in countries where most people wouldn’t be classified as white (in America) there can still be social organization along color/shade lines due to history and self-hatred. Remember that most countries on this planet today (even the USA) were colonies of a European country at some point in the last few centuries. So the idea that the privileged class should be white or light-skinned (or at least try to be) is tenacious.
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Martin: What the fuck is your problem, homie?
Zimmerman: I don’t have a problem.
Martin: No, now you have a problem.
Martin: You are going to die tonight.
1. Zimmerman was the one following Trayvon.
2. “Homie” sounds like something a black stereotypical character in some random Hollywood comedy would say. Personally, I’ve never heard any brotha used the word, not even when the word was in in the late 80’s, early 90’s.
3. Trayvon was small and unarmed compared to Zimmerman. Why would he act so confrontational if he had nothing to defend himself and Zimmerman was large and packing?
This is just my assessment, but all Zimmerman did was try to make Trayvon out like a typical black male thug looking for trouble.
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Origin
“Do you think, black people can escape racism by leaving America? I am skeptical, being white supremacy is global and not just an American, Phenomenon.”
“No. Black people cannot escape racism by leaving any particular country. Even in countries where most people wouldn’t be classified as white (in America) there can still be social organization along color/shade lines due to history and self-hatred. Remember that most countries on this planet today (even the USA) were colonies of a European country at some point in the last few centuries. So the idea that the privileged class should be white or light-skinned (or at least try to be) is tenacious.”
I’m assuming this answer was meant for me, being that is my text, you’re quoting but you didn’t post my name.
I have to agree with your, assessment .
I don’t think, running to another country would do any good, being white supremacy will be waiting for us, where ever black people decide to relocate. @ : o ( ) >
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@ satanforce
You are thinking of Bliff.
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From the post on the Black Brute stereotype, which I last updated in 2008:
Which is how Zimmerman sees Trayvon Martin – jumps out of bushes, wants to kill him for no reason. It was even night. No one, at least from what I have heard so far, is asking what Trayvon’s motive might be to kill Zimmerman.
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Brothawolf:
You’re right my brotha.
I might also add, that “Homie” was a slang used back in the 90’s by west coast rappers and therefore used by black youth.
I seriously doubt that a young teenager from Florida, would use slang, originating from the west coast back in the 90’s.
I would buy that treyvon, referred to Zimmerman as the “N” word, being that’s the type of slang, youth on the east coast, use toward anyone, regardless of race.
Zimmerman said the first thing that came to his mind, that would depict the young boy as a gang member, so his self defense claim, would be seen as justifiable, because the young trevon talked to him like a “gang member”.
Black youth and hell, even WHITE YOUTH talk like gang members, emulating rappers but only black youth, gets stereotyped as that emulation is truly who they are but white youth, they’re just being young and rebellious.
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Also I don’t understand how trayvon gets the “Black Brute” stereotype?? This boy was a private school baby, he went to the private school down the street from my house. Trayvon has a 3.8 gpa and does a lot of community service work. He also would have been attending FAMU. Everyone who has gone to that private school is well rounded.
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abagond:
“It is why whites cross the street to the other side – just to be safe! As if savage killers cannot cross the street too!”
LMFAO! That is so funny, i see what you did there… ^_^
On a serious note, this type of knee jerk reaction, along with white women, grasping their purses, when a black man, walks towards them.
This makes black men, feel for self conscience and therefore, criminalized .
So white people, criminalize black men, without saying a word to them. Its all in the body language and actions and treatment, toward black men.
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Not much I can add here that hasn’t already been said. I do believe and have always believe Zimmerman was a liar and is still lying. It is my fear he will get off. My other fear is that what happened in Los Angeles during the Simpson trial a race riot. This is scary business.
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mary burrell:
whatchu doin coming all late to the thread?
You slipp’n boo… ^_^
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Awww, Sondis! It’s so great to be missed, I miss you too, boo! 😀
I don’t think that Blacks can escape racism by leaving, I just feel that we can walk without of fear of being judged so fiercely based on just being black. I think that being trapped under the umbrella of whiteness, basically being given minimal freedoms so that we can remind whites of their privilege has been damaging enough for us.
Racism and colorism, blacks most major mental illnesses have really taken us out of our element. We are too comfortable conforming. I do not believe as a people that blacks have been really allowed space to perform at our fullest potential.
Furthermore, the whites speak with green colored tongues. And you will not get an emotional reaction out of the majority of them unless it hits their wallets because as a culture, that is all they really value and are hell bent on spreading this value system to every corner of the globe for THEIR continued benefit. Monsanto anyone???
Whether you believe in God or Spirit, higher realms, whatever…you will be presented with multiple opportunities to do the right thing before you reap what you sow. And these public tests for white ppl are being failed, imo.
I feel that for blacks as a ppl to gain any foothold, we would have to sacrifice the huge paycheck and all the tap dancing that has come along with it and start something for ourselves–which I still really believe would be hard to do because of all of the material temptation the US is known for.
I wish there were easy answers. These public courtroom debacles are like lynchings, over and over again….because to me symbolically they mean the same thing.
Our collective hope for justice is still placed in the hands of whites. We can hope that they will have a glimpse of moral conscious and humanity at the last second…but we are sorely disappointed over and over again. You will never do right by a system that keeps moving the markers and changing the rules.
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@Sondis
And where were you? What is your opinion on this trial? I believe that Trayvon Martin was racially profiled and killed by George Zimmerman. You agree?
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Zimmerman, a Barney Fife toy cop wanna be. Trying to be a tough guy when he is just a punk loser trying to act out some kind of Charles Bronson fantasy. Just a epic loser. Yes, he profiled Trayvon Martin but you can’t make certain individuals understand this. It’s just that simple.
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Also, have you seen the comments doggin Lisa Jackson,l accusing her of jealousy, extortion, gold digging?? It’s unbelievable-even with proof!
How can you influence minds like those?? Surely you can’t believe they are the minority of American thinking??
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If people had been vigilant about protesting this travesty. None of us would even know who Trayvon Martin was. If Black people collectively and not just Black people White people who have a moral conscience would stand together for what’s wrong in American society a lot of things can change. But sadly we are to polarized as a nation to work together.
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Hello mary & sondis how are ya? Yall are late to this thread normally u are like in the first 10 comments rofl. I see sondis was like the 3rd comment mary u usually right behind him [gives tardy slip to mary] lol . Anyway zimmerman is definetley a liar, i agree homie is not a word i even hear in the south, i hear it mostly in shows about latino gangs in la. It makes no sense for someone to run then say homie and u are going to die tonight. Imo if someone were to say those things they wouldn’t run away and be talking on the phone if their intention was to attack someone. George projects what he did onto trayvon, in the 911 tape when he said he looks like he’s on something, imo i think george sounded like he was on something, but we will never know because the police didn’t test him. I think he was probably drinking or something, because it was a game on that night right?
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Meant to say if people had not been as vocal and vigilant about this travesty concerning Travon, we never would have know who he was. But it still took a long time for them to get Zimmerman and make him stand trial. Because of persistence of Black people protesting. That is what got results. The squeaky wheel got the grease, to get this trial going.
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Mstoogood4yall, LOL! I just got home from work. Had to get a bit to eat first. But yes, Sondis and I are usually the first one to comment. LOL! How are you toady?
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OMG! I meant, How are you today. (typing and eating sandwich)
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SugarKiss:
Your point, speaks to what i have been saying, the entire time I’ve been on this blog.
I am not for talking to white people about racism, white supremacy or privilege, being white people know all about it, so why spend, precious energy and brain power, trying to convince white people of something, they already know about?
They simply need and will always deny it, because if they admit to white supremacy, racism and white privilege, everything they have will crumble.
It would mean, that everything is unequal and white people haven’t got what they have, through merit alone and also as a country, have become so powerful by fairness and none violence.
I have always advocated, the key to black people’s true freedom is being independant of and not dependant on white people.
We need to learn to switch from going to college to get a JOB from white people ( which is nothing more than begging for a job, being we always have to prove to them, that we are worthy of a job and not given the benefit of the doubt ) and learn how to go to college to go into business for ourselves and serve our own, communities.
We need to keep our money, circulating within the black community, several times over, before it leaves our community. ever other racial group does this, except black people, that being said, its not because we NEVER HAVE TRIED and succeeded!
Anyone heard of Black wall street? yep, we did it and it was wondrous!
Guess what happened? yep, you guess correct again, white people got jealous and destroyed all our progress in becoming, independent of them.
(http://youtu.be/X4IvFXPGYNA) <—Black wall street documentary its a long one, so when you have free time, grab a cold ice tea and recline and watch it with friends or family, so they know that we were once, independent and successful business men and women! ^_^
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If George Zimmerman gets off, there will be a huge race riot, like never before! I hope it gets my generation racially aware that this is a racist country and not following this colorblind bs that we are living in ”post racial” America. Everyday I fear for my 14 year old brother when he goes out, fearing some racist White would kill him like Zimmerman did to Trayvon. Sadly he thinks that we are living in a post racial society when in reality we aren’t.
I think the young Black people of my generation will be surprised when they go out in the real world and experience racism and get shocked because they were taught that we were living in so called post racial America. At least I know I wouldn’t be shocked when I face racism out in the real world.
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Yes, that homie business and “You are going to die tonight ” is so phoney. Who really talks like that?
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@ sondis: Yes Black Wall Street and Rosewood to was reading about race riots today on my lunch break in one of my new reference books. Pray that 2013 doesn’t happen.
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@ mary
im doing great, making a hommade chicken pot pie. and by hommemade i mean everything is homemade except the pie crust lol.
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Adeen:
yes Adeen, i agree with you and others.
I also feel, he will not get off, Scott free. The need to slap em on the wrist as to not, start a race riot in Florida. So as not to seem, like he’s getting off for killing the boy, they will give a light sentence of 5 years, he’ll get out ealir for time serves and good behavior.
Black people will still be outraged, being the light sentence but won’t be as outraged, if he gets off Scott free.
The whole country has gotten its eye on this case, its too risky to just left him off the hook, specially in this racial climate as of late.
Paula Deen,don imus,dog the bounty hunter, so much racial tension in this point in time, they need to make a statement, just enough to keep another, watts riot from happening in 2013.
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I heard from a friend that Zimmerman’s mother was Afro- Peruvian. So he has some Black blood coursing through him. Might be some self hate issues going on with him. Just saying.
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@ mstoogood4yall
I loooooove pot pie! That is all. Lol.
@ Sondis,
Yes I have read about Black Wall street. Thanks for the link! Hopefully we can empower our own to do more for us and not be goaded into explaining to whites why we are excluding them or simply choosing to take care of us, first.
With all of the ways we can express ourselves creatively– there are avenues now that allow us to write and capture positive blackness through song, stories, photography. We are missing this and do not need anyone’s approval to do so.
I myself have a few side hustles–they are a labor of love for me and I love helping my ppl! I am also going to start self publishing more black love fiction, too.
We need this positive energy and access in the world! We can speak to each other in so many ways and send messages of love.
We have to abandon the thinking that it “must get me paid.” Get out here and do something!
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mary burrell:
I think it has to do with being, white identified as an honorary white, more than self-hate. Remember, distancing yourself from other minority groups, so you can join the white club, has been a main stay for Latinos, that can pass for white.
They have the hair texture that whites have, so lots of them can pass, specially the ones that are mixed with white and have light eyes.
Long as they don’t share common cause with blacks, they can grand father their way into the white club.
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@ sondis That is correct.
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@ mstoogood4yall; I love chickenpot pie as well. Boston Market chicken pot pie. KUDOS for hooking you up some chicken potpie. You are going to snag you a HUSBAND!!!!
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@ sugarkiss; Welcom back. Good to read your commentary.
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*Welcome*
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mary burrell:
Yeah Mary, mstoogood4yall got a brotha lookin at her, side ways… @ : o / ) >
Cooking like that…she bound to snag a brotha!
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Grrr, i hate when my smiley face, gets cut off! @: o / ) >
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@ mary and sondis
lmbao yeah im working on gettin me one shoot these military men down here are fine and get travel and have benefits say what. naw let me stop i know i need to get a career before i get a man or start my own little business, just don’t know what.lol
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I hope everyone reading this does NOT want a riot.
If one occurs, then many more people will die, of all skin colors.
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Sondis, I didn’t say race didn’t play a role in Catherine Kieu’s sentencing, I only pointed out that there are pretty major differences between the two cases– differences that extend well beyond (but obviously still include) race.
I don’t know what the charge of aggravated mayhem is or what it entails, but those other charges are absolutely appropriate to the case. Lorena Bobbitt was also found not guilty by reason of insanity, whereas Kieu was not. Additionally, a lot has been learned about spousal abuse, and a lot of advances have been made in the criminal justice system to protect abused spouses. I don’t think it’s worthwhile to denigrate those advances purely over race. The two issues are separate and both important on their own merits, so tying them together is counter-productive to both causes.
“Becker has been charged with ‘aggravated mayhem, false imprisonment, assault with a deadly weapon, administering a drug with intent to commit a felony, poisoning and spousal abuse,’ according to the Associated Press. The most serious of these charges is ‘aggravated mayhem,’ which carries a life sentence with possibility of parole (as opposed to just ‘mayhem,’ which has a sentence of 3-5 years).
Of the aggravated mayhem charge, Nightengale says, ‘It’s so heinous — we’re looking at this as premeditated. Her intention was to permanently deprive him of a piece of his body and do it in such a way to inflict a great amount of pain and psychological damage.’ He also adds, ‘I’ve been doing this for 22 years and the only other time I remember this happening was when Lorena Bobbitt did it, and that didn’t even happen here. This isn’t a typical domestic violence case — it was way over the top.'”
For the record, I felt Lorena should also have received a life sentence, or at the very least more than a 45 day evaluation in a mental health institution.
You’re also making an assumption that I’m white (you’re correct), that all white people are the same (wrong), that every single one of us points to everything but race to deny that justice is not equal between races (also wrong). Nothing could be further from the truth. I’m well aware of the level of injustice in our justice system for virtually all but caucasian and others who are “white enough” to look white to other white people.
There’s no denying that, and there’s been loads of research to prove that disparity over the last several decades even conducted by white researchers. One of the most obvious is comparing the rate of conviction in urban areas with primarily white populations vs. other urban areas with similar population and socio-economic backgrounds with a much smaller black population– the conviction rates by race between the two are very close to the same even though statistically they shouldn’t be.
Another example is Obama’s Presidency. I have friends who worked the Presidential detail in the Secret Service, and one of the things I learned that was never given much media attention is that after Obama was sworn into office, the number of threats against the President that the Secret Service has to deal with increased by more than 400% in the first year– well above the rate of ANY other President in American history.
The Tea Party would like everyone to believe there is no racial element within the movement, but when they claim such, they’re ignorant of the huge number of White Power elements deeply entrenched within the movement in an attempt to swell their numbers (and if the immigration debate is any indication, they’re likely succeeding wildly). The Tea Partiers would like to believe that the movement is only about their own values and politics, but it’s not and it hasn’t been since the movement was astro-turfed and co-opted by all manner of corrupt groups and individuals. The White Power movement’s involvement there is similar to its involvement in the patriot/liberty movements back in the 1990s following incidents like the Ruby Ridge incident, the Branch Davidian raid in Waco, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the first bombing on the World Trade Center.
So yes, racism, by any measure, is not just alive and well in America, it’s flourishing. Not all white people are ignorant of that, and not all of us are just standing around trying to blame anything but racism for the ugly results of racism. And while you’re painting white people with a much too broad stroke based on false assumptions about any single individual isn’t all that different from the broad strokes many white people make about “illegals” and people of color, I understand that it comes from an entirely different place, so I’ll forgive it, but I’ll also point it out to you. People being discriminated against for ANY reason need every ally and advocate they can get, so it’s probably worthwhile to try not to alienate them before they even have a chance to make a difference. So, let’s call a truce.
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@Sondis, Mary, Mstoogood4yall
I agree with you all however I do believe race riots will happen if Zimmerman gets off.
Maybe my generation would woke up and realize that we aren’t living in this fairy tale post racial America that they thought they were.
And what I have noticed with Latinos is that many of them feel that they are better than Black people because they have lighter skin, straight hair and crap like that until White AmeriKKKlan discriminates against them and they realize that they aren’t White. White Hispanics like Charlie Sheen and Cameron Diaz get a pass in this society because they look White. As for George Zimmerman, he will never join the ”White club”, he will always be a Spic in their eyes yet they are backing him because he shot a Black kid. And you know how AmeriKKKlan sees Black people as inferior and low class. So many White Americans feel that Zimmerman did the right thing killing Trayvon Martin when he wasn’t a bad kid.
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Sorry, I mis-typed in my last comment. I meant, “One of the most obvious is comparing the rate of conviction in urban areas with primarily white populations vs. other urban areas with similar population and socio-economic backgrounds with a much larger black population– the conviction rates by race between the two are very close to the same even though statistically they shouldn’t be.”
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@Qwerty
LOL your screen name is basically the first five letters on my keyboard!
I don’t want a race riot but I see a riot coming soon if Zimmerman gets let go. Honestly me and many minorities can’t take racism anymore. We want to be treated as equals and people but sub humans!
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@qwerty; That’s exactly what I am talking about. And I don’t want that to happen. This frightens me to no end.
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Yep, I picked qwerty because it is easy to type. I believe standard keyboards are sometimes referred to as qwerty boards. There are more efficient arrangements of letters, but I digress…..
I’ll be out of the country from July 13 to 18 and travelling to larger cities to catch planes, and also my home will be unattended. I hope the trial does not end until I’m back, just in case. I know that is selfish, but well my preference is to be safe in my home and keyed into the news if the crap hits the fan.
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Honestly, even if the jury thinks that the stipulation of beyond a reasonable doubt is not met, they will likely convict him on something like voluntary manslaughter to diffuse the situation somewhat.
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@ Adeen: Left you comments on open thread.
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abagond
@ satanforce
“Abagond, Biff is back? Is he supposed to be here? What’s going on?”
You are thinking of Bliff.
—
Oh, I had no idea I was coming in with a similar name to someone who was previously banned..
Anyway, I like the writing here and it makes me consider issues and viewpoints I wouldn’t normally think about.
I’m sure you guys wouldn’t want to have an echo chamber where you’re just repeating each other with no alternative viewpoints represented, right? (actually, some people want just that.)
I’ll be far far away from the riots if and when they occur. I’m sure many whites would have mixed feelings about the riots and similar conflicts generally. While they will be horrible in terms of loss of life and property, they might help speed the collapse that many are expecting (and, in some cases, hoping for).
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Qwerty, you have a good point but there is 50/50 chance that he will be convicted. The chances that he wouldn’t be convicted is on the fact that there isn’t enough evidence to prove that he killed Trayvon Martin or either he could prove he killed Trayvon Martin in self defense.
And another chance that he will be convicted is that they could prove that Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin in cold blood and that he racially profiled him.
I really do hope that George Zimmerman is convicted and put in prison for what he did. It is obvious that he is a racist and killed Trayvon in cold blood.
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Peanut: Zimmerman is totally lying. No question about that. But keep in mind that people lie in court all the time and get away with it, especially if the jury is pre-disposed to want to believe the lies.
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Keith D:
Typical white person, preaching to a black person on how i shouldn’t pain white people with a broad brush. I’ve had enough of white people, telling me what i should and shouldn’t think, not to mention that white people has a long history of painting black people with abroad stroke and still do today!
Anyone notice how white people, always talk to black people in a condescending way and always trying, “correct” us like we are children, its also always something, that they themselves are known to have done and currently do, towards black people.
Its only when they are called out by a black person on something, they come off and admit their faults but always make it a point to let a black person know, what he is doing is wrong.
“Keith D.
Sondis, there’s at least one major difference between that case and the John and Lorena Bobbitt case. In the Bobbitt case, they were able to re-attach it and he made a full recovery (as I recall, he even did a porn video afterwards to prove it). In the case with Catherine Q, she destroyed it in a garbage disposal, so there is no recovery possible, ever. Those are very different circumstances.”
Notice, Keith didn’t admit to anything about race in his, initial rebuttal to my comment, it was everything but race.
Then after i challenge his, “color-blind” everything but race, approach to the Catherine Q debacle, he flipped the script and added:
“Keith D.
Sondis, I didn’t say race didn’t play a role in Catherine Kieu’s sentencing, I only pointed out that there are pretty major differences between the two cases– differences that extend well beyond (but obviously still include) race.”
I will tear his next paragraph to shreds:
So yes, racism, by any measure, is not just alive and well in America, it’s flourishing. Not all white people are ignorant of that, and not all of us are just standing around trying to blame anything but racism for the ugly results of racism. And while you’re painting white people with a much too broad stroke based on false assumptions about any single individual isn’t all that different from the broad strokes many white people make about “illegals” and people of color, I understand that it comes from an entirely different place, so I’ll forgive it, but I’ll also point it out to you. People being discriminated against for ANY reason need every ally and advocate they can get, so it’s probably worthwhile to try not to alienate them before they even have a chance to make a difference. So, let’s call a truce.
“So yes, racism, by any measure, is not just alive and well in America, it’s flourishing. Not all white people are ignorant of that, and not all of us are just standing around trying to blame anything but racism for the ugly results of racism.”
You’re ignorant of your own and other white people’s ignorants if you actually believe what you said, because the majority of white people ARE ignorant that, “Racism is not just alive and well in America, it’s flourishing.”
Furthermore, the majority of white people DO just stand around trying to blame anything but racism for the ugly results of racism.”
I also see what you are trying to do by repeating the, “NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE, chant.
Unless your a child, i would think you would understand, when someone says, white people, they don’t mean, ALL.
Just because 99% of white people are racist and 1% may not be racist, doesn’t make me sleep at night, maybe YOU as a white person may sleep like a baby over that fact that not ALL white people are racist with your thumb in your mouth and socks on your feet but not me as a black man, living in America.
“You’re also making an assumption that I’m white (you’re correct), that all white people are the same (wrong), that every single one of us points to everything but race to deny that justice is not equal between races (also wrong). Nothing could be further from the truth. I’m well aware of the level of injustice in our justice system for virtually all but Caucasian and others who are “white enough” to look white to other white people.”
“You’re also making an assumption that I’m white (you’re correct)”
No surprise there…
” that all white people are the same (wrong)”
There goes that ALL whites chant again…don’t worry abagond, before i sent this message, I’ll post the link to the “not all whites” argument article just for Keith!
“I’m well aware of the level of injustice in our justice system for virtually all but Caucasian and others who are “white enough” to look white to other white people.””
Yet, you and the majority of white people, NEVER POINT THAT OUT!, you only did when i called you out on being, “color-blind” to my comparisons of Lorianna Bobbitt and Catherine Kieu’s cases, having different outcomes based on their races.
“For the record, I felt Lorena should also have received a life sentence, or at the very least more than a 45 day evaluation in a mental health institution.”
Call the press, you ( a white man ) felt Lorena should have also received a life sentence. Yeah, that’s the only thing i wanted to hear from you, i feel so for filled now….*sarcasm.
” I understand that it comes from an entirely different place, so I’ll forgive it”
Boy, you sure got me mixed with someone who cares about your, “forgiveness”.
I’m not looking for you to forgive me, my purpose for being a member of this blog is not for me to be , soothed by your white-self serving tripe.
“People being discriminated against for ANY reason need every ally and advocate they can get, so it’s probably worthwhile to try not to alienate them before they even have a chance to make a difference. So, let’s call a truce.”
You see black people?
white people always feel a need, to inject themselves as the white savior, so not alienating white people is the key to race relations between white and black people?
I think we tried that before about 40 years ago with the Civil rights movement and haven’t had success since, yeah..hold on to that fallacy.
“so it’s probably worthwhile to try not to alienate them before they even have a chance to make a difference”
Make a difference you say? what difference has white people made in the lives of black people and other minorities? NOTHING has changed in the grand scheme of things…
unemployment is still double the national average, and double that of white people, poverty, home ownership, education, infant mortality,black people sentenced to prison far more harsher than whites, black men and teenager are killed, twice that of whites and health, still have a huge gap.
I can go on and on…so please, spare me. -_-
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@ sondis : You too cold brother. Cut that man son slack LOL!
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*some*
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dang, i did forgot to post the, “not all whites argument” article .
For Keith courage in alpha zones on the Turbo Graphics 16
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mary burrel:
You know i don’t play games with these white folks….. ^_^
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@Sondis
I wish I had the same courage when Dave came onto me like that. Mary could tell you. Stay tall, Brotha! You are one smart and handsome Black man and I love that because I barely see that in my generation of Black men. Most of them are weak minded, effeminate and don’t like Black women especially a darker Black woman like me. Well the ones in my area anyways.
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I just wanted to chime in about Black people Ditching Outta Dodge as I call it. I advocate for it one hundred percent. Not to “escape racism”, but to find a place where the racism is of a kind that you can live with. This American racism is very personal, and if I’m going to be treated like I’m not a citizen of the country my people helped build, then fine, I’m opting out and gonna go live elsewhere.
Find a way to get out of the USA and travel. Even if it is just for a short visit or a vacation. Experience other countries and see what is what for yourself. I’ve said it before on this blog, I’d rather be called chocolate lady than n****r b!tch. I’d rather be foreign and exotic than other and subhuman. There are all sorts and kinds and levels of racism, and I for one can’t live with the American brand.
As for GZ, he thinks he’s starring in his own cops and robbers movie. He went out and hunted down and killed Trayvon and showed not one scrap of remorse for what he did. And if things go sideways, like I expect them to with the verdict and/or sentencing, people please don’t riot.
It accomplishes nothing. Best to check your voter status and take action to get those stand your ground and self defense laws off the books. Focused anger and directed pushbacks can do wonders. Rioting in the streets doesn’t do a damn thing. I truly hope that we get justice for Trayvon Martin, but if we don’t I hope we act with intelligence and smarts and have a damn PLAN instead of taking to the streets.
People have been calling for marching not rioting. I don’t think marching does much if not accompanied with a focused plan of action for after the march, but better that than rioting.
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Adeen:
You have your whole life ahead of you to find a man, that values you for a black woman. So don’t be too concerned about a man at this point in your life.
I think a lot of black women your age, make finding a man, a priority over education. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have a boy friend but don’t place your self worth into being in a relationship with a man or lack of one.
Adeen, concentrate on getting an education, then college for starting your own business.
Don’t be so quick to shack up and get married and have children, so early in your life.
Travel a little and see the world, don’t get tied down with a man, that may want to trap you by getting you pregnant, so he can marry you, then you’ll fall into the cycle, so many black women do.
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Dr. Goddess, who’s been following this trial intensely, tweeted that Zimmerman was on Sean Hannity and told him that there were white and Hispanic burglary suspects as well.
If that is the case, then it supports the case that Zimmerman killed Trayvon because he perceived him as a threat worse than any other burglar because of he aroused Zimmerman’s criminal black man stereotype threat.
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Brothawolf:
I agree brotha. I know it won’t come out in the trial, though.
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sondis,
All I can say to you is thank you for your response to Keith!
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@Sondis
Thank you very much but honestly I don’t want any kids at all. My worst nightmare is settling down and having kids before the age of 25. I actually don’t want a boyfriend right now either because I want to graduate from high school. first.
I am pointing out that there is no good Black guy in my generation. I don’t see any like you at all.
And please put Zimmerman in jail!
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Brothawolf:
Yeah, i had to iron him out, he had some wrinkles goin on…
Adeen, You’ll be alright, don’t rush it my beautiful sista ^_^
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@Sondis
Thank you my handsome Brotha!
Please put Zimmerman in jail!
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“And please put Zimmerman in jail!”
lol i say put him under the dang jail. He probably gonna be in protective custody.
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What is the result if the jury comes up with a non-guilty verdict to all charges? Can there be a state appeal?
I also wonder how much the prosecution has at stake in getting a conviction, and what the “state’s interests” are.
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mstoogood4yall
yes we know George is latino his mother is Peruvian and his father is white. but technically he is white latino because latino is not a race it’s a culture..,
Supposedly his maternal great grandfather was black (There are black Peruvians and Colombians..) hence the irony under old Florida laws he would have been considered black. (Which illustrates how ridiculous those laws were..)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143303/Is-photo-proves-George-Zimmermans-great-grandfather-black.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule#Legislation_and_practice
“Jim Crow laws reached their greatest influence during the decades from 1910 to 1930. Among them were hypodescent laws, defining as black anyone with any black ancestry, or with a very small portion of black ancestry.[1] Tennessee adopted such a “one-drop” statute in 1910, and Louisiana soon followed. Then Texas and Arkansas in 1911, Mississippi in 1917, North Carolina in 1923, Virginia in 1924, Alabama and Georgia in 1927, and Oklahoma in 1931. During this same period, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, and Utah retained their old “blood fraction” statutes de jure, but amended these fractions (one-sixteenth, one-thirty-second) to be equivalent to one-drop de facto.”
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“You got a problem now.”
That was said to me almos word for word once, along with:
“We not hangin n’s no more we hangin crackas now. ”
One of the scariest experiences in my life. When Zimmerman described looking to see if Martin had a gun it resonated.
The defense knows which strings to pull.
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To jefe:
What is the result if the jury comes up with a non-guilty verdict to all charges?
ZImmerman could not be tried by the state of Florida if he was found not guilty of all charges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy
He could possibly be brought up on charges in Federal court for violating Trayvon Martin’s civil rights.
http://www.justice.gov/crt/about/crm/
An examples of an unsuccessful Federal prosecution for civil rights violations:
Vincent Chin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Vincent_Chin#Federal_civil_rights_charges
Successful:
LAPD officers involved in Rodney King beating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Heights_riot#Yankel_Rosenbaum_killing
Can there be a state appeal?
No, not if Zimmerman is found not guilty.
If there is a mistrial the case can be brought to trial again.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/mistrial
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This makes me sick. They are really trying their best to get the murderer free.
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Awake BW,
“I’d rather be called chocolate lady than n****r b!tch. ”
Wasn’t it a foreign magazine that called Rihanna that?
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Does Zimmerman say Trayvon was on the phone when he confronted him?
Is there a timeline of the phone conversations?
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@ Solesearch
I don’t follow celebrities lives so I have no clue, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it was foreign press calling BW chocolate. After the week we just had, I moved up my 5 year Ditching Plan to 3 years. I will fight for The Cause tooth and nail while I’m here, then I’m going global. I’m out.
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Reading the accounts and looking at the maps it seems that Trayvon was afraid and for good reason. He was walking the main strip of the gated community on a path home. He notices someone following him. Fight or flight? FlightHe veers off on a different path because he feels uncomfortable to the point where he even mentions it to the person he was on the phone with. He is trying to lose this guy or at least not give him a clear line of sight.
That should be enough but it’s not. As Trayvon is walking, the guy has now gotten out of his car and appears in front of him, blocking the path between Trayvon and HOME. Is it a coincidence? Fight or Flight? Wait.
This man means business and all of Trayvon’s worst fears have surfaced. The creepy feeling that he is being followed isn’t just a creepy feeling anymore. This guy is right in front of him and confronts him. Fight or Flight? FIGHT. He was given no choice
Trayvon Martin was right to be afraid. Trayvon Martin wound up dead after a literal fight for his life.
But we’re supposed to believe that George Zimmerman is innocent when everything he did provoked the fight and actually led to this kid’s death. We’re supposed to believe George Zimmerman was afraid and screaming for help when Trayvon was the one being harassed and followed.
We’re supposed to believe that the yelling stopped after the gun shot because Zimmerman just stopped yelling. Not because the person yelling was dying.
I read something someone posted on another site and it’s very interesting and that’s the police coverup on Zimmerman’s behalf. Kid gets shot. Nobody bothers to find out if he lives in the community. Knock on a door. Nothing. He gets to the morgue. He’s there for three days.
The day after the shooting, his father files a missing person report. Nobody says, “Hey, we have a John Doe we took to the morgue yesterday.” Nobody on this stellar police department draws a conclusion between a black father looking for his son and a black kid killed the day before.
Their lack of humanity and callousness is appalling. I try to imagine this happening to a white family and I simply cannot.
Zimmerman is going to get off. He deserves the death penalty. Zimmerman truly thinks he did what he had to do. Most white people do.
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Awake BW, no, they called her a n!gga b!tch.
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In a previous post, Abagond wrote that it’s hard to prove racism to white people.
I countered that the challenge with making a racism argument is that while racism may exist at some quantity in general, it’s often very difficult to determine how much if it (if any) is present in any sufficiently complex situation. Additionally, few people seem to even attempt such a nuanced argument.
I think the Zimmerman trial demonstrates this challenge, and also illustrates how subjective or intuitive opinion can be inaccurate.
One can easily find thousands of blog posts and comments suggesting than an innocent verdict in this trial demonstrates the ongoing presence of racism. This is flawed reasoning writ large.
The justification for that assessment is simple: eliminate race completely from the trial and you have a case with little evidence for either side, making the prosecutor’s job of meeting the “beyond a reasonable doubt” benchmark challenging.
Anyone who then suggests that in such a situation they’re nonetheless able to ascribe a potential “not guilty” verdict to some external factor (including, but not limited to racism) is clearly demonstrating poor judgment and reasoning skills. To see that on a national scale is disheartening.
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Randy:
In a previous post, Abagond wrote that it’s hard to prove racism to white people.
I countered that the challenge with making a racism argument is that while racism may exist at some quantity in general, it’s often very difficult to determine how much if it (if any) is present in any sufficiently complex situation. Additionally, few people seem to even attempt such a nuanced argument.
Over the time that I have been dipping in to this blog, I have seen people like Kwamla (I hope I spelt that correctly) amongst others, attempt to give you definitions of racism. Though I sometime struggle to get my head around it all, their words give me pause to think, particularly when I contextulise it to situations in my own life.
I think it simply comes down to this – racism cannot really be quantified, not in the way that you want it to be anyway. The extent to which people will go to express their racism differs a lot but, underlying, it really is an irrational response to what is seen as ‘different’. For that reason there can be no definitives.
Hard facts and logic are there for the world to see but true feelings are most often hidden (and if they are socially unacceptable, often they are buried yet they can still rise up when we we feel at our most vulnerable or unaware) . I think your quest to disprove ‘racism’ where others see it/experience it is fruitless as you refuse (dishonestly in my opinion) to acknowledge the fact that when people respond to things which are based on faulty/flawed/skewed logic it is hard to determine to what degree that will get played out in life.
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@Question:
“Do you think, black people can escape racism by leaving America? I am skeptical, being white supremacy is global and not just an American, Phenomenon.”
I just don’t know where black people can go to escape racism…perhaps to some 90%+ black island in the Caribbean, but then even there, sometimes the darker skinned blacks are treated worse…or you can go to a mostly black African country, but certain ethnicities (sometimes the ones favoured by the colonists) wield most power and are treated better than others.
I think the problem is the lasting effects of European colonialism…unfortunately people are still brainwashed.
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ThatDeborahGirl
Excellent points!!!
In fact, you’re making a much better case than the prosecutor handling the prosecution!
(Nothing new there…)
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@ Solesearch
Thanks for the clarify. I am not surprised at foreign press doing that either. Racism is indeed global. I just know I can’t continue to live here in the US. I may never find a place but I’m still going to go looking. Some places are 10 times worse than the US, some places are 10 times better. Just have to find out.
I’ve already lived and traveled in countries outside the US, and I’ve already experienced those different kinds and levels of racism I spoke about before. I know couple two three places where I’m going to start my journey.
I still advocate for Black people in America to become global explorers. Even if you can’t travel, you can still connect and meet with visitors and expats who have come to America from other places around the globe and broaden your horizons in that manner too. And with the internet you can also connect with citizens of other countries via cyberspace. Having those international networks of individuals can yield some welcome and sometimes surprising results for your life here in the US.
The powers that be like to promote this idea that we are somehow trapped here, and also that we are ignorant of world view, and my doesn’t it surprise them when they find out Black people in the USA have connections and contact with other Black people around the world! Ankhesen Mie speaks a lot about that on her blog.
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@ Thatdeborahgirl
“Their lack of humanity and callousness is appalling. I try to imagine this happening to a white family and I simply cannot.”
Appalling, yes. Shocking, not at all.
You never have to prove racism, because they do it for you.
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@Awake BW
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Actually, all non-white Americans should do this, but especially Black people. It will help put things in perspective.
Actually, I advocate 2 things:
– learn the history that was NOT taught to you, including the history of your family as far back as you can go and how the events in American history (or overseas history) shaped their lives
– Get to know other countries, cultures, and societies outside the USA, or at least those besides black and white America in your hometown. It will help you see things in a different light.
In other words, continuously seek to decolonize your mind. You might not like all that you see, but at least you will be able to see the situation from different angles.
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Omnipresent:
You gave an excellent response.
So why try to quantify factors such as “racism” at all? Because it has real, wide ranging policy and societal implications.
If you incorrectly identify the cause of a problem, then you’ll be unable to improve it.
For example, if the topic of discussion is school performance, and the predominant cause of poorer educational outcomes in heavily minority areas is erroneously attributed to racism, then the tough questions and hard work needed to identify and correct the real factors are less likely to be pursued.
In the case of the Zimmerman trial, you potentially have large numbers of people believing that they’re being unfairly marginalized due to race, a situation which can only harm society.
Further, inaccurate claims of racism obscure actual examples of it. You might call it the “boy who cried wolf” effect.
For these reasons, and others omitted for brevity, one might expect that people who believe themselves to be most at risk for racism would be the most skeptical/ of claims of it, wanting to make sure that the real problems are identified and addressed.
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Randy:
If you incorrectly identify the cause of a problem, then you’ll be unable to improve it.
That is true…if the diagnoses is incorrect. With racism I would bet that there is a higher percentage of times that the ‘victim’ is correct in their identification of the issue but, unless it is blatant, it is not easy to prove.
If you were with an adult male who made innappropriate comments about pre adolescent girls, and then tried to justify this by making sweeping generalisations about what they are like, regardless of whether he self identified as a paedophile, only an idiot would not question whether or not the male had these tendencies.
If later ‘allegations’ were made about this individual, despite his protestations of innocence and prior clean record, that there was nothing to unearth.
In other words when you give something a name/title/category, one that is not socially or morally acceptable or something they people either cannot or will not admit to, people will work hard to submerge this is side of themselves.
This is what ultimately muddies the waters and prevents ‘the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’ being fully revealed.
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Should read
If you were with an adult male who made innappropriate comments about pre adolescent girls, and then tried to justify this by making sweeping generalisations about what they are like, regardless of whether he self identified as a paedophile, only an idiot would not question whether or not the male had these tendencies.
If later ‘allegations’ were made about this individual, despite his protestations of innocence and prior clean record, that there was nothing to unearth, and he was proved innocent, it doesnt mean that the accused did not behave in a way that was not socially acceptable, only that it hasnt been proved.
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Will he really get off? It’s a shame if the prosecution is not working hard enough to prosecute. If I’m not mistaken, I do believe that many many whites were in favor of him going to trial after he weirdly got off for the killing. I believe even the media was saying it was fishy that he just “got off” after murdering someone who was merely walking through the neighborhood, so I’m not sure it’s all or the vast majority of whites who see him as not guilty or feel he should get off.
But I agree with some who said they can’t stomach the media or keeping up. For me, it’s especially when it comes to politics which I know many of us as black people…well how we feel about it. We’ve never been able to take both parties seriously because Republicans always tend to align themselves against blacks/civil rights!
I don’t keep up with the case and sometimes I go for a long time without watching the news because it’s often from whites who primarily do not like blacks for whatever sick reason.
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I really strongly believe that Zimmerman will not be spending any more time in jail than he already has for this crime. Which is a damn shame because I truly believe that he murdered poor Trayvon for no other reason than he was Black. I will never understand how a neighborhood watch captain can take it upon himself to become “psuedo cop” and pursue a “suspect”. Fatboy wouldn’t be in this mess now if he had just listened to the dispatcher and let the police do their job. But no he had to go and play hero and now an innocent young man is dead.
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Did anyone remark that Zimmerman is a wannabe cop?
Many of those types are just dying to carry a gun and shoot people.
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@jefe: I said he was a Barney Fife wannabe. Read my above comments if you care to.
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jefe
“Did anyone remark that Zimmerman is a wannabe cop?
Many of those types are just dying to carry a gun and shoot people.”
Lets be specific, Dying to shoot, “Black” people.
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Thank you Sondis for deciphering that “code,” lol.
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@ Sondis. Hello.
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Also, please keep Trayvon’s parents and family members in your prayers (or thoughts). It must like hell to hear their dead child’s screams for help on the tape. Plus more than likely their child’s murderer is going to go free and has been receiving all kinds of support. What bitter pills they must be swallowing.
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@mochasister: I think about that as well. That is heartbreaking.
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My younger self is sympathies with Trayvon. I sure as hell can remember bring followed and running or having decide to fight. Here is the worst I can think about if you don’t know an area too well you have to wonder if the guy following you has friends if you are being herded.
Zimmerman caused this on himself and now he should pay the consequences. The 911 operator told him to leave it alone. However, the devil’s pitchfork says he smiles and sheds tears of relief and then goes on his tv tours.
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so, realistically, any chance that jurors will see GZ as the aggressor?
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Sociopaths have a tendency to turn the tables whenever their misdeeds are brought to light – whatever it is they are accused of, and whatever the evidence might be, they will accuse others of doing the same thing. So, while it is evident that GZ targeted and pursued Trayvon Martin, in GZ’s narrative of how things happened, it is Trayvon Martin who hid in non-existent bushes and launched an attack on GZ. This sort of nonsense is eagerly swallowed by Zimmerman followers because, regardless of the truth, it suits their own agendas.
Trayvon Martin is the black brute; George Zimmerman is one of them. George Zimmerman must win at all costs, regardless of the actual evidence.
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I am a “black” American expat. While racism is global, it is NOT true that blacks of African descent are always at the bottom of every country’s social hierarchy. In Hungary, Gypsies are at the bottom, not blacks. In Germany, Turks are at the bottom. In Australia, Aborigines are at the bottom. In Russia, Caucus people are despised and called black!
If you travel to many other countries, you are an “American”. As for me, I live in the Netherlands, and will NEVER return to America, except only to briefly visit family. Racism comes in different degrees depending on where you are in the world.
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Omnipresent:
You seem to be using an analogy about one person to describe a group of people. There’s a name for that. It’s called “stereotyping”.
Imagine if someone said, “Crime statistics indicate that black Americans commit crime at a higher rate than white Americans, so therefore if a black person is suspected of a crime, it’s reasonable to presume that they’re guilty even given a lack of evidence.”
I’m guessing that most folks here would object to that statement. If such a presumption of guilt is not acceptable when describing black people, why should it be acceptable when describing white people?
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Randy:
Imagine if someone said, “Crime statistics indicate that black Americans commit crime at a higher rate than white Americans, so therefore if a black person is suspected of a crime, it’s reasonable to presume that they’re guilty even given a lack of evidence.”
No. The error in your statement here is that it makes sweeping generalisations about ALL black Americans, not one particular individual where, in the example I gave you, the individual themselves revealed what they actually thought and felt. That is the difference. If someone were to make that statement, you would know that the basis for this was based on their ‘irrational reasoning’ as there is no way in the world that the person could know ALL black people.
It is this kind of thing that I am trying to point to. That no matter how ‘objective’ someone will try to say they are, their thought process will almost always be driven by their own personal reasoning and they will make this fit to whatever is being said. So, if their reasoning (internally) is based on racist beliefs, what they say and how they act will be a response to that. This is hard to prove, especially if the person has conditioned themselves to bury this deep because of being aware of strong objections both morally and socially.
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@ jefe
Jeffrey Toobin, a legal analyst on CNN, says that the prosecution’s case so far (with only one more day to go, most likely) is too weak for a second-degree murder charge.
If the jury sees Zimmerman as a wannabe cop, there is a chance.
Also, if they put Trayvon’s mother on the stand on Friday and ask about the screaming on the 911 tape, that might sway the all-female jury. Not so much because of her answers, but because it might humanize Trayvon’s death and frame Zimmerman as a monster. Unfortunately, that might be wishful thinking on my part.
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Im on the road and cant follow disscusions on the blog now, with no lap top, but, about this case, the thing that glaringly sticks out to me is why didnt Zimmermon immediatly identify himself as neighborhood watch?
That is the crux for me..how is Martin suposed to know what is going on?
That does agree with the fight or flight argument someone mentioned
If someone is following you and doesnt identify themselves, how are you going to know what is going on?
Does anyone think Martin would have reacted if he knew the guy was neighborhood watch (self appointed, a scary thing in itself)?
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Randy:
Let me put it this way. If Zimmerman had irrational thoughts about black people, it is reasonable to assume that in approaching Trayvon, this would determine in what manner he accosted him. Whilst the intention may not have been to kill Trayvon purely because he was black, the fact is, that his irrational thoughts about black people in general, informed his thinking, encouraging him to react in an irrational way to how Trayvon responded to him. This is where racist beliefs come in to play and, whilst Zimmerman may be able to take the stand and say with conviction, he didn’t kill Trayvon because he was black, the reality is that his deeply held irrational responses made him feel threatened by Trayvon because of the colour of his skin.
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@ Omnipresent
Randy doesn’t want to get it. He never does. He only uses weak statistics in a racist society to prove and validate his racist beliefs. The fact that we are all so uneasy and nervous hoping that these jurors “find it in their hearts” to see Trayvon as a “human” speaks to how screwed up whites feel about black bodies.
Sociopathic behavior reinforced by the environment he lives in. And..he’s (Zimmerman) was protected and PRAISED for his actions. He received blind support to pay his lawyers!!! That is the America we live in.
So if you apply his twisted way of thinking to cops, judges, politicians, corporations, you see why ppl like Randy are sheeple for the cause.
And why he must start doing for ourselves and getting our youths out of these pathways to prison.
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SugarKiss:
Randy doesn’t want to get it. He never does
In the short time I have been dipping in to this blog I have had my doubts but, at other times, he seems genuine and earnest in the way he engages in commenting that I thought that he just had an inquisitive mind.
It is a bit sh*t if Randy is really coming from a place of dishonesty. For someone who comes across as quite clever, I must admit I am bemused and confused by the constant need to quantify with statistics something like racism which is an irrational response at best. Something that is personal and particular to each individual in how it demonstrates itself.
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Hi Mochasister, alot of racists tend to be aggressive like that. They tend to be predatorial and want to hurt people (particularly those in their target hate group). I know alot of times on the job, etc. racists tend to act obsessed with people in the group they hate and want to hunt them ( us ) so to say. The people who are saying ZImmerman is innocent and quoting Trayvon’s height, etc are those types. the racist types that would most likely do the same thing or want to see the same thing occur had they been in ZImmerman’s shoes.
———————————————
Re:
I really strongly believe that Zimmerman will not be spending any more time in jail than he already has for this crime. Which is a damn shame because I truly believe that he murdered poor Trayvon for no other reason than he was Black. I will never understand how a neighborhood watch captain can take it upon himself to become “psuedo cop” and pursue a “suspect”. Fatboy wouldn’t be in this mess now if he had just listened to the dispatcher and let the police do their job. But no he had to go and play hero and now an innocent young man is dead.
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Didn’t read: no time. IMO, the prosecution got a kill order from the very top: Zimmerman had to walk. Therefore, he put on the weakest (and weirdest) prosecution possible without it becoming obvious.
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Omnipresent,
I thought you referring to the perceptions of black Americans regarding the implications of a potential non-guilty verdict in the Zimmerman trial, not about Zimmerman himself. The error was mine.
Omnipresent:
As stated at greater length here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/zimmerman-murder-trial-day-6/#comment-179309, racism and perceptions of racism have non-trivial effects on policies, people, and society at large. For this reason, attempting to measure it serves a useful purpose.
Regarding whether or not I’m honest, if I were a liar then any claim to the affirmative could also be a lie. With that obvious disclaimer out of the way, I would state that I am genuine and quite interested in the welfare of all people.
If nothing else, one might consider that among those with compassion for others there exists a diversity of opinion as to how best to understand and maximize personal and societal wellness.
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Looks like an impending riot.
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Randy:
If nothing else, one might consider that among those with compassion for others there exists a diversity of opinion as to how best to understand and maximize personal and societal wellness.
Yet comprehension seems to continue to escape you – why do you think that is? I already said that you come across as quite clever so it seems weird that in the short time I have been dipping in to this blog, reading your posts and trying to ‘get’ how much you are understanding things is like walking through a revolving door, just round and round and round in circles.
Though as blokes this isnt the done thing, you almost have to be able to empathise, put yourself in another ‘mans’ shoes if you like. I wonder if the problem is, that you too harbour irrational thoughts (much more that you are comfortable with admitting) and that because you view things, so clinically (at least thats how you come across to me), you cant come terms with them. That is a potential reason why you often dont seem to ‘get’ it.
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@ Omnipresent
1. Randy in my experience is massively disingenuous.
2. When it comes to white racism it is all so complicated for Randy and needs to be measured and quantifed. When it comes to black racism, though, he does not need all that. He does what he refuses to do in the Zimmerman case: flip the script:
If Randy were to tell the police that a 17-year-old white kid jumped out of a bush and tried to kill him for no particular reason with his bare hands and that Randy had to shoot him dead in “self-defence”, the police would think he was maybe deranged, probably a dangerous nut who needs to be locked up.
But that Zimmerman gets a pass for doing the very same thing to a black kid – that apparently has nothing to do with racism. As far as he can tell.
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@ Richard_III
A disturbing idea, but it makes sense of so much…
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Five out of the six jurors are mothers.
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Abagond:
A double-standards check? Man after my own heart.
Unprovoked assaults happen all the time as do assaults by a party who escalates a verbal confrontation. Young men are quite known for poor impulse control and an excess of bravado. I disagree that cops in such a situation would necessarily think that the shooter was a “nut”.
Also, with no other first hand witnesses and a bloody back-of-the-head wound to help corroborate the assault victim narrative, a prosecutor wouldn’t have much evidence with which to attempt to prove 2DM “beyond a reasonable doubt”.
In other words, even if all persons involved were white, one might expect a reasonable chance of a not guilty verdict.
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I agree that the prosecution is acting very wimpy indeed.
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Randy:
Abagond said:
1. Randy in my experience is massively disingenuous.
Yes, I get it. Reckon he thinks he’s making a mug out of me. He is on a wind up pretty much all of the time then!
Young men are quite known for poor impulse control and an excess of bravado.
Yep, you have written off Trayvon and justified it with a rational response – something so generic, it can be applied to all.
I’m not wasting my time writing anything new again, I will just repeat what I said earlier though it is more rhetorical now because I just cant take you seriously.
Though as blokes this isnt the done thing, you almost have to be able to empathise, put yourself in another ‘mans’ shoes if you like. I wonder if the problem is, that you too harbour irrational thoughts (much more that you are comfortable with admitting) and that because you view things, so clinically (at least thats how you come across to me), you cant come terms with them. That is a potential reason why you often dont seem to ‘get’ it.
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Charlie Sheen get away with it because they look white, can pass and their names don’t come off as “hispanic”, Dias sounds hispanic but since she looks white can easily be rationalized under “pure” spaniard blood.
As for hispanics wanting to be white, its almost obvious when you think about it, many if not most hispanics have enough native blood alone to qualify as Native Americans by the standards of the US….it would be like if someone who was majority Cherokee and looked it, identified as “English or Anglo” because that is the language they speak or the culture they grew up in.
Sure a Native American can identify culturally as an american citizen with a little “a” but racially they identify as something almost totally different.
Its not even something I thought about myself till it was pointed out on this blog that Mexicans/latinos/hispanics “are” native americans.
As for Zimmerman; only real witness is him, outside witness’s at best vaguely corraborate his story….so what else can they do but a lesser charge?
I’m not saying its just what Zimmerman did but honestly how could anyone justify giving him a higher charge except by taking his race into account?
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Omnipresent:
Not at all. I wouldn’t waste my time or yours.
Omnipresent:
That’s the point of objectivity, to evaluate circumstances free of emotional bias. This is particularly valued in matters involving justice.
Notice the blindfold: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/HK_Central_Statue_Square_Legislative_Council_Building_n_Themis_s.jpg
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@ Randy
So do YOU believe Zimmerman’s story?
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@Abagond
Randy is another troll. I can’t believe anyone would agree with Zimmerman. It is clear to me that he is a murderer and killed Trayvon for no reason. Things would have been much different if Trayvon was White. Trust me.
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@Adeen
Much different if someone with legal connections; whose father was a judge…..murdered someone?
Your right, it never would have went to trial, gotten national attention and Zimmerman would be walking around as if nothing ever happened.
It would hardly be the first time the blue shield has made it so people with legal connections don’t have to face consequences for their actions.
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Mychal Denzel Smith’s great summary in The Nation:
Read more: Trayvon Martin and Black Manhood On Trial | The Nation http://www.thenation.com/blog/175065/trayvon-martin-and-black-manhood-trial#ixzz2YE7wzhlm
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“Young men are quite known for poor impulse control and an excess of bravado.”
– – –
“Young men”, as a category, can certainly include men such a George Zimmerman, who was in his mid-late 20s when he targeted, pursued, shot & killed Trayvon Martin. And, as adolescence is actually said to end somewhere around 25 (and not exactly on the dot at ages 18 or 21, as might be assumed), George Zimmerman wasn’t far from adolescence himself. Aside from all that, the 20s has been an extended teen-hood for a sizeable number of young adults for some time now.
Some (“not all”) 20-somethings don’t behave as (and even seem to be resistant to viewing themselves as) “truly adult” until they hit 30. I myself have noticed that “guys” and “girls” as self-descriptors, as opposed to the more adult “men” and “women”, are quite common amongst 20-somethings.
The fact that GZ had a few years on Trayvon Martin didn’t necessarily make him much more mentally mature than Trayvon Martin.
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@ V 4
And yes it would have been different as well if his father wasn’t a judge. I doubt that he would have felt the need to kill Trayvon if he was White. In fact, if he was White, White America would have been making a hue outcry to put Zimmerman in jail. And I don’t see that outcry from White America but from Black people like me who want Zimmerman in prison for what he did.
Honestly I think this whole trial is a big indictor of how race relations truly are in America. And race relations aren’t getting any better either.
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According to a Huffington post article, none of Trayvon Martin’s DNA was found of GZ’s gun handle, and none of GZ’s DNA was found under Trayvon fingernails despite claims that Martin was grasping GZ’s head and repeatedly bashing it into concrete. Some of GZ’s blood, however, was found on the garment Martin wore UNDERNEATH his hoodie…hmm….
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Imagine what would happen if mestizo Zimmerman had shot and killed a blonde-haired, freckled faced, middle-class white kid on his way home with some iced tea and Skittles….
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@Fiamma
Exactly that is what I mean. It would be a huge public outcry if some middle classed White boy was shot by George Zimmerman. There wasn’t a huge outcry from White America about Trayvon Martin’s murder because many of them feel that Trayvon ”got what was coming to him” because he is Black. And to many of them, Black boys are criminals.
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Can anyone tell me what are we to tell children and teenagers what to do when a stranger approaches them? I don’t have any children myself, but I am a schoolteacher. Like many other teachers and parents I have talked to children about “stranger danger” and how they should try to leave the situation as soon as possible if someone is bothering them or following them. Many people have been commenting that Trayvon “asked for it” and that if he had been more “respectful” he would still be alive (I read some of these sickening comments on CNN.). The stupidity aside what should we tell the children to do in a similar situation? Are children and teenagers supposed to stop and allow anyone to question them? Mind you I am talking about private citizens (which is what Zimmerman was) and not identified law enforcement officials. I thought children and teenagers had a right to flee from people and situations that make them uncomfortable, but apparently I was wrong. I am genuinely curious and would appreciate feedback. What are some of you parents (especially Black parents) telling your kids to do about “stranger danger”.
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Abagond, I apologize if this question is too off topic. It’s just that ever since this whole thing has happened this question has been on my mind.
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@Fiamma
I have noticed the same thing about many (not all) twentysomethings myself. They do seem to be very immature compared to previous generations. My parents were married and had me at the ripe old age of twenty-three! Lol! By the time I was twenty-five I had graduated from college and grad school and been on my job for a year. I agree with you that Zimmerman wasn’t necessarily more mature than Trayvon. You would think that he would have been. By the way I am not excusing Zimmerman at all for what he did.
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Randy:
RYoung men are quite known for poor impulse control and an excess of bravado.
O: Yep, you have written off Trayvon and justified it with a rational response – something so generic, it can be applied to all.
RThat’s the point of objectivity, to evaluate circumstances free of emotional bias. This is particularly valued in matters involving justice
Listen mate, you dont need to explain to me what objectivity means.
When I made my point about having written off Trayvon, it shows that you have taken a stance based on an ‘irrational’ response. So, young men are known for poor impulse control so, you have made an assumption, that this would apply to Trayvon too. So, you smoothly and easily make the leap that Trayvon MUST be a typical young boy with poor impulse control. Bravado? Who is around to see him puffing out his chest – think about it. I cant think of many teens who would use the term ‘creepy white man’ if they were not afraid on some level. The teens you are talking about would say something along the lines of ‘some f*ckin a$$hole is following me’
What I havent seen, is you apply that same objectivity and logic to Zimmerman.
So go on, knock yourself out mate and show that emotionless objectivity you told me about!
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@ mochasiser
I ask that question to myself too. Hindsight is 20/20, I believe Trayvon RIP didn’t believe his life would be taken that night. It was a situation that escalated to a point of no return. GZ is the guilty one.
We have talks with our kids regarding staying safe. My boys are quite young so it is more tailored to their age. So we emphasize staying with the group, and if ever approached by someone they don’t know, don’t talk to them- full permission to be rude, anti-social etc. Run away look for a mother if in a public place. If by themselves, run, scream at the top of their lungs, “I DON’T KNOW YOU, THIS IS NOT MY MOM or DAD!” depending on the perpetrator.
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Abagond:
I think there are good reasons to doubt the veracity of at least some details of Zimmerman’s story. As has been mentioned, the dialog sounds a bit too much like that in a movie.
My point wasn’t to defend Zimmerman, but to simply suggest that if you factored race completely out of the picture, such as if both Martin and Zimmerman were white, there would still be a reasonable chance that the prosecution would be unable to prove 2DM.
Consequently, it’s not logical to conclude that a not-guilty verdict in this case implies racial bias.
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Adeen:
Not everyone who disagrees with a prevailing opinion is a troll. What’s interesting about this case is that a great many people who appear to be black, such as the commenters of this blog, seem to dismiss outright the possibility that Martin may have starting beating on Zimmerman.
I see no evidence to suggest that it may not have potentially happened that way.
The certainty of your opinion, and that of many others, isn’t logically sound. To me, this speaks volumes about people’s capacity for non-rationality, and the continued tenuous nature of race relations.
Omnipresent:
The burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense. The defense merely has to introduce doubt. Whether or not Zimmerman also potentially had poor impulse control doesn’t limit the defense’s ability to do this.
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@Omnipresent
“Imagine what would happen if mestizo Zimmerman had shot and killed a blonde-haired, freckled faced, middle-class white kid on his way home with some iced tea and Skittles….”
Had it been a white kid, Zimmerman would never have pursued him in the first place…
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^@Fiamma
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@ Randy
I am not asking about the trial or some point you made upthread. I am asking whether YOU, Randy Garver, believe Zimmerman’s story.
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@Randy
“The burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense. The defense merely has to introduce doubt. Whether or not Zimmerman also potentially had poor impulse control doesn’t limit the defense’s ability to do this.”
Zimmerman’s statements to the dispatcher should be enough to prove he pursued Martin before any alleged tussle occurred, which makes Zimmerman the instigator. If Martin displayed any “poor impulse control,” it was in self-defence.
Regardless, Zimmerman’s credibility should be called into question since the judge found that he and his wife misled the court last year.
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Randy:
Omnipresent: When I made my point about having written off Trayvon, it shows that you have taken a stance based on an ‘irrational’ response. So, young men are known for poor impulse control so, you have made an assumption, that this would apply to Trayvon too. So, you smoothly and easily make the leap that Trayvon MUST be a typical young boy with poor impulse control. Bravado?
Randy: The burden of proof lies with the prosecution, not the defense. The defense merely has to introduce doubt. Whether or not Zimmerman also potentially had poor impulse control doesn’t limit the defense’s ability to do this.
Odd thing you do here, you present examples etc but when it is narrowed down, you skirt around it by bringing in some other part of the story! Anyway…
YOU made an assertion about young men having poor impulse control. Unless you believe that relates to this case, why bring it up?
To bring it back to the original statement you quoted form abagond:
In a previous post, Abagond wrote that it’s hard to prove racism to white people.
I wonder why this is so difficult for you to accept.
I countered that the challenge with making a racism argument is that while racism may exist at some quantity in general, it’s often very difficult to determine how much if it (if any) is present in any sufficiently complex situation. Additionally, few people seem to even attempt such a nuanced argument.
That does NOT mean that it doesnt exist or that it is a figment of a persons imagination. After all, as I stated previously, it is not generally a persons best interest to acknowledge this.
You should now know this as well as anyone – anyone that is who is capable of having ‘irrational responses’ – though I imagine that doesnt fit with your outwardly clinical way. You’ve demonstrated that you are capable of this type of ‘irrational response’ when you made the comment about adolescents and poor impulse control so, if you and others like you feel like this about this kind of thing, why would it just stop there? I cant believe it would but you would have to be honest enough to admit it.
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Hello Mochasister, that is a good question. I am in my 30’s and after going to a news site and reading how the vast majority of white posters there at that particular site saw nothing wrong with Zimmerman killing Trayvon Martin it has awoken me ( and somewhat has me on alert now about what you called “stranger danger”).
I was driving in some country area far from where I live and going like 2 points over the speed limit on the highway. I never have ever been scared of the cops but when I saw a cop car on the side of the highway obviously waiting for a speeder I believe, for the first time in my life ( after having read that message board), I was scared. Realizing that I am a black woman and in that area, it may be mostly white, I realized that the cop could target me, especially if I was going over the speed limit and in targeting me, I had no clue what he could do.
Is this the feeling Black males and black parents deal with ( excuse me but I was raised by a single mom with no males present in the family at all), have to go around dealing with? A fear of “stranger danger” that someone in authority will approach to attack or the fear or being profiled. As a black woman without any kids or close black male relatives, I have never felt that before.
I think I will stay away from message boards/forums when I realize the vast majority of posters are hateful.
But as for your direct question, it’s a good point. I wonder if there’s a website or forum where black mothers are able to discuss that issue.
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@Abagond,
I have only read excerpts of Zimmerman’s prior-given statements, and given that, I don’t believe the entirety of his story.
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@Randy
Please, Zimmerman killed Trayvon for no reason. Do you think Trayvon got ”what was coming to him?” Do you think things would have turned out different if Trayvon was White?
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@Adeen
Honestly; I think what I said before is what would have happened had Trayvon been white.
I think it would have been covered up and there wouldn’t have any reaction comparable to what did happen if any had happened at all.
To put it this way; when was the last great national outcry about a white person murdered by a PoC regardless of age? Not just attacked, set on fire etc…..but out and out murdered?
Especially; since lets be honest it happens at least a few thousand times a year, nothing comes to mind in the last few years to me.
Add on top of that the blue shield Zimmerman’s got going for him and that he is the only real “witness”.
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[…] Zimmerman Murder Trial, Day 6 […]
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Sugarkiss.
Your comment here https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/07/02/zimmerman-murder-trial-day-6/#comment-179078
moved me to tears.
I am so tired of racists and racism even though I don’t undergo it directly but I do indirectly through my family members and my son is soon going to be Trayvon’s age and he looks a lot like him. Even if I didn’t have a son, and even if he didn’t look the way he does, it would be the same. I cannot stand the way Trayvon’s parents and all other parents who have had to undergo this and are undergoing it and will have to suffer and are forced to face these monsters and still be considered as the ones with “a problem”.
I HATE racism, I hate the people among my ancestors who invented that ideology. I am going to fight them to the end of my life. I don’t understand, I have never understood why anyone should be subjected to that vision of the world.
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Randy,
who are talking to when referring to “people’s capacity for non-rationality” ? I am afraid I understand but I am not sure…
WOW.
Especially after reading this coming from you: “Consequently, it’s not logical to conclude that a not-guilty verdict in this case implies racial bias.”
We have a different conception of logic.
Racial bias is TOTALLY logical. Because there is a -well established and analyzable- racist logic. Therefore, it is very logical to conclude such a thing.
Are you totally blind to the way this society (like all other racist societies) functions ? What are these picky hypocritical little assertions and dismissals but a part of the racist logic ?
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V-4
“since lets be honest it happens at least a few thousand times a year”
Official statistics please ?
Since the US does have “racial” statistics, I imagine these data do exist.
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It is interesting to notice that what comes up when googling “black on white crime” or “murders” are white supremacist or ultra-conservative sites… who seem to consider, like v-4, that a few murders (which of course must be be condemned) equal thousands.
Apparently to these people, “white deaths” -still- count for more than “black deaths”.
They constantly forget all the deaths (real or social) that occur through the pressure and oppression of the -very real- racist system and institutions we live in.
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@ cornlia
yep to them one white death = 20 ppl rofl. i mean if i was the minority in the world i’d be concerned as well, one death =one less person to have kids which would decrease the population. and when a white person is killed by a poc that person is arrested immediately and put on trial. whereas with georgie he had weeks before he was arrested. white ppl don’t have to protest when one of them is killed because the murderer is arrested asap. shoot u see how quickly they got christopher dorner, had that reward up to a million dollars in a matter of a day or two. when was the last time you’ve seen that big of a manhunt and that high of a reward for a white person that killed a couple people. shoot the green river killer killed all those women and the reward for him wasn’t even that dam high.
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This just in my black people….
“Judge in Zimmerman trial to allow toxicology report showing Trayvon Martin used marijuana.”
The criminalization as begun!
I knew it was a matter of time, they would bring this up again, as it has any baring on him, being stalked and murdered by a racist, George Zimmerman!
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@ sondis
hey brotha how u doin?
They try to criminalize every black person they can. They don’t surprise me anymore how low they would stoop. u see how they put charles ramsey record out there and brought it up to make him look bad, when that had nothing to do with him saving those women. so its no surprise they’d do this to a child who was murdered.
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sondis
“Judge in Zimmerman trial to allow toxicology report showing Trayvon Martin used marijuana.”as it has any baring on him, being stalked and murdered by a racist, George Zimmerman!’
yes because apparently weed is very bad, and is a good reason to not care about someone being killed. This same drug that whites are trying to legalize in a lot of states and that is already legalized in colorado. smh. yes so i guess weed is the new thing to justify killing someone. george is fat so i guess the prosecution should use that against him as an indication that he has no self control or discipline. See how crazy that sounds.
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