Warning: Read to the end of the post before jumping to conclusions about where I am going with this post.
Are Christians more violent than Muslims? What does the record say?
Murder rate: White America, like most Christian countries in the Americas, Africa and Eastern Europe, is markedly more violent than most of the Middle East (murders per 100,000 population):
- 0.6 Bahrain
- 0.7 Oman
- 0.8 United Arab Emirates
- 0.9 Qatar
- 1.0 Saudi Arabia
- 1.2 Egypt
- 1.7 Cyprus
- 1.8 Jordan
- 2.0 Iraq
- 2.1 Israel
- 2.2 Kuwait
- 2.2 Lebanon
- 2.3 Syria
- 3.0 Iran
- 3.3 Turkey
- 3.4 WHITE AMERICA
- 4.1 Palestine
- 4.2 Yemen
Terrorist attacks: According to the FBI, only 6% of the terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 were carried out by Muslim extremists. Even Jewish extremists carried out more (7%).
War: Wars with at least a million dead:
Christian wars:
- years: name: conservative body count in millions
- 535-554: Gothic Wars: 5.0m
- 790-1300: Reconquista: 7.0m
- 1096-1272: Crusades: 2.0m
- 1337-1453: Hundred Years’ War: 3.0m
- 1562-1598: French Wars of Religion: 3.0m
- 1568-1648: Dutch Revolt: 1.0m
- 1618-1648: Thirty Years’ War: 3.0m
- 1655-1660: Second Northern War: 3.0m
- 1763-1864: Russian-Circassian War: 2.0m
- 1792-1802: French Revolutionary Wars: 2.0m
- 1803-1815: Napoleonic Wars: 3.5m
- 1830-1903: War in Venezuela: 1.0m
- 1882-1898: Conquests of Menelik II of Ethiopia: 5.0m
- 1910-1920: Mexican Revolution: 1.0m
- 1914-1918: First World War: 20.0m
- 1917-1922: Russian Civil War: 5.0m
- 1939-1945: Second World War: 41.5m (European deaths only)
- 1946-1954: First Indochina War: 1.0m
- 1950-1953: Korean War: 1.2m
- 1955-1975: Vietnam War: 1.1m
- 1998-2003: Second Congo War: 2.5m
Muslim wars:
- 1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 7.0m
- 1681-1707: Conquests of Aurangzeb: 5.0m
- 1967-1970: Nigerian Civil War: 1.0m
- 1980-1988: Iran-Iraq War: 1.0m
- 1983-2005: Second Sudanese Civil War: 1.0m
- 1989-2001: Afghan Civil War: 1.4m
Seven times more people have died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars.
There are more Christians, but only about 50% more, nothing like seven times more.
Western history is Eurocentric, so we know more about wars in Christian lands than in Muslim ones. But not for wars since 1900, and there the imbalance is even worse: 73.3 million compared to 4.4 millon – 17 times more dead in Christian wars.
Some blame technology, yet the Muslim world has all the weapons the West had to kill over 100 million people. And yet it did not.
Democide: counts those who died not through war or street crime but through the wilful in/action of government, like genocide or Mao’s Great Leap Forward.
Christian democides of a million or more (does not count communist democides):
- 940-1917: Russia (tsarist): 2.1m
- 1095-1272: Crusades: 1.0m
- 1451-1870: European slave trade: 17.3m
- 1492-1900: Latin America: 13.8m Amerindians
- 1600-1900: Caribbean: 10.0m slaves worked to death
- 1618-1648; Thirty Years War: 5.8m
- 1651-1987: British Empire: 1.1m (not counting slavery)
- 1800-1900: Brazil: 1.5m Amazon rubber companies
- 1900-1920: Mexico: 1.4m
- 1933-1945: Germany (Nazis): 20.9m
Muslim democides of a million or more:
- 400-1900: Iran: 2.0m
- 1110-1918: Ottoman Empire: 3.9m
- 1958-1987: Pakistan: 1.5m
- 1983-2005: Sudan: 1.9m Nuer, Dinka, Christians, Nuba, etc
Christians have killed eight times more people in democides than Muslims: 74.9 million compared to 9.3 million. Almost the same rate as for war.
The mistake here lies not in the numbers but in the words “Christian” and “Muslim”. Sometimes religion is a cause – or at least an excuse – like in the bombings by Christian extremist Eric Rudolph or the genocide in Sudan. But most often it is not. Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.
Sources: Wikipedia, R.J. Rummel, FBI, Loonwatch, U.S. Department of Justice, List of countries by intentional homicide rate.
See also:
- wilfully obtuse
- Orientalism
- democide
- Eric Rudolph
- 9/11
- Tamerlane
- Hitler
- Sudan
- reading while white: history and news
- reading while white: crime statistic
- Is Islam violent? – wherein I argue the Muslim world has become more violent over the past 30 years but that religion is not the main reason for it.
Reblogged this on oogenhand and commented:
Yes, the semantics of Christian vs. Muslim is the issue. Counter-Jihadis of course will point out the Hitler-Mufti relationship. And finally, violence of any kind can usually only be stopped with counter-violence. So zoning in on “terrorism” isn’t the best move possible of the opponents of Islam.
LikeLike
It may be simple oversight, but what of Nigeria, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, Libya, Gambia, and Algeria? I would never accuse anyone of intellectual dishonesty, but those are Muslim nations, and none of them seem to have made the list. I mean, Sudan. Islam is the majority religion in the killing fields of Sudan.
Is the omission because no matter where they are, those of African extraction slaughter each other en masse?
LikeLike
What about violence against women?
LikeLike
In all honest, this is something that I’ve observed all of my life and the actions of those that are supposed to be Christian’s is that they are the most violent and have comitted the worst atrocities to known to humanity. It made me question who is it that they’re really worshipping?
I was taught that Christianity was about doing good toward all men, but as long as I’ve lived, I’ve yet to see any of it. I see more evil than I’ve ever see any good and we all know who’s supposed to be associated with evil.
LikeLiked by 1 person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus
Abagond, maybe you just forgot to include India all together, the British did bad things there too, but, how could you forget the above?
Except, when I see you also have no mention of deaths from Arab slavery and 17 million plus 10 million atributed to the Atlantic slave trade, I think your information is seriously skewed
Why the psyche, Abagond? You are doing all this to lead to the Boston marathon bombings…but, you are giving miss information
LikeLike
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/fox-news-attacks-muslims-boston_n_3146427.html
If your aim is to fight prejudice like this, I can understand, I just think it would be better to demonstrate that a small amount of religious fundimental bombers are the problem not the billion practicing muslims
And it is a reality, two people in Canada are under investigation now for a plot, the French embassy just got bombed, there has to be a way to isolate the extremists without going into the “us against them” type of comparisons with Christianity and Islam…they both have a lot of cruelty in their histories
LikeLike
Your point is well taken. However, it is interesting to note that comparatively, the first century of Christianity, which marked its rapid expansion from Israel into the Roman world, was based on no violence or war being perpetrated by Christians. The foundation of Christian expansion was nonviolent, inclusive of all peoples, and included both poor, working class, and slaves as brothers and sisters in a common faith. This characteristic was lost with the eventual legalization and domination of the faith in the 4th century. Contrast the founding century of Muslim expansion and it is quite different. Whether or not it was the fault of Islam’s prophet, the initial expansion was premised on warfare as well as witness. Indeed, the real question is theological: if followed consistently, Christianity does not conflate Christianity with human orders of power. “Christendom” was invented by the catholic church, largely in opposition to Islam, which makes no separation of God’s coming kingdom and the Muslim’s duty to expand Islam on the earth by witness and, if necessary, warfare. Christ gave no provision to his followers to employ warfare. The question one must ask every Muslim is whether they ultimately wish to live in peace with all men regardless of their religion (or lack of it), or if they want to see Islam prevail over the whole earth. If they say the latter, then the question is to what extent they are willing to go to see that happen.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@ vonmiwi
I agree and I think it comes down to they feel that God justifies this. They are more likely to feel comfortable doing some type of violence simply because of that idea. Most that I have seen will take one minor insert in the bible and attribute that to mean “God wants them to do this.”
LikeLike
I laughed when I read the Post title in my emails.
That question ought to be asked… Definitely. Thank you Abagond.
Muslims are not one, by far. Currently the Islamic world is undergoing a phenomenon similar to the Inquisition, of course with its own peculiarities and various branches. The sectarians have overrun the traditional, humanist ones. The violence we are witnessing stems mostly from that.
As for the “Christian” violence, I guess you covered it quite well.
Except that these people have nothing to do with Christ. I’m not a believer, but I was brought up as a Catholic. I remember VERY WELL what I read of what is called “Jesus’s word”. And, wow, all I can say is that is had NOTHING to do with what most so-called Christians claim and do. Nothing.
I stopped going to church when I was 16, after a -nice- sermon by a nice priest who was also anti-military and openly leftist. After this sermon that celebrated in very clear ways the importance of welcoming the “stranger”, people who were leaving the church started uttering racist stuff about a group of “Arabs” that were crossing the street in front of us. I thought: “that’s it, I have nothing to do with these people, I know what Jesus’s Word is, I don’t need these idiots and their rituals to know what’s right”.
Even if Jesus never existed, what he is supposed to have said is nice. Apart from that, there are nice things in the Kuran too, in the Bible, in Confusianism, in all Human spiritual visions. There are bad things too.
As my favorite French comedian, the late and regretted Coluche, would say: “Choisis ton camp, camarade !”
LikeLike
@ futurodellanazione
1. Nigeria, Ethiopia and Eritrea are not mostly Muslim. Nigeria is just under half, Ethiopia and Eritrea about a third.
2. I limited myself to wars and democides of a million or more to keep the post within bounds. None of those countries make the list as far as I know. Ethiopia comes the closest – but that would count as Christian violence in any case. Rwanda, also Christian, did not make the list for the same reason (fewer than a million deaths). Ditto Darfur.
LikeLike
Christians (and Jews) have historically been violent b/c the Judeo-Christian god Jehovah condones murder, and even commands it on several occasions in Exodus 31:14, Leviticus 20:13, Numbers 15:35, Deuteronomy 17:12…I can go on and on…
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ futurodellanazione
“Is the omission because no matter where they are, those of African extraction slaughter each other en masse?”
No one has slaughtered more people than Europeans, if you want to be “intellectually honest,” that is.
LikeLike
Humans have a history of violence. White people in particular have a very long history of violence against everyone they have come into contact with regardless of religious beliefs. The motivation for the violence of white people has always been power and profit. I think white people are the most violent people on planet earth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ B.R.
1. I did not forget Musilm violence in India. I got Aurangzeb down for 5.0 million and Pakistan down for 1.5 million. Some say the Indian partition in 1947 caused a million deaths, but I go by conservative figures, which put it below a million.
2. If you can find any documented sources on the numbers killed by the Arab slave trade I will happily include it.
3. I have to constantly write uphill against this White American presumption that they are better than everyone else or, in the case of their bad qualities, no worse than anyone else. BullSHIT. Just as there is no symmetry of racism there is no symmetry of violence. Whites are easily the most violent people the world has seen since the Mongols. It is not even close. This stereotype of violent Muslims, like all their other stereotypes, comes from projection fed by confirmation bias. Till people start calling violence by Christians “Christian”, it is Islamophobic to call violence by Muslims “Muslim”. I do not hear anyone calling Hitler a Christian extremist, he who killed 6 million JEWS. No. For some reason religion never enters into it. Just for those of OTHER religions.
LikeLike
@ Randy
See murder rate. As to domestic violence, etc, that is hard to measure, especially internationally.
LikeLike
@ Louis DeCaro Jr.
I do think racism, genocide, Islamophobia, etc, have roots in Christianity. Not in anything Jesus said or even in Old Testament slaughter and slavery, but rather in how Catholic culture, and therefore its Protestant offshoots, were shaped by heresies and how they dealt with them. This is where the “different is bad”, “different is screwed up”, “different is a threat” and must be kept down comes from. This is over and above the “us v them” thing that I assume is a human universal.
LikeLike
Religion cannot save anyone. It can only lead a person to his damnation.
How can one be saved? “Acknowledge Jesus Christ and have faith that He is true God and true man. You will be saved in whatever religion you are with because you will pick out what is good and discard what is evil. Therefore, what will save you is your own works and faith in the true God.”
LikeLike
This is a good and timely post given Phyllis Schafly’s asinine assertion (since repeated elsewhere) that Tamerlan Tsarnaev’s first name alone should have been a red flag.
LikeLike
Abagond:
I agree it’s hard to measure, but I think we can get a sense of the scale of the overall violence rate vs. murder rate by looking at domestic figures.
In the US, there are approximately 16,000 or so murders per year.
According to a November 2000 report by the National Institute of Justice and the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, there were 5.1 million physical assaults in the US.
Murder is only .03% of total commission of violence in the US. Citing murder rates would not seem to effectively illustrate overall levels of violence in a society.
LikeLike
Not surprised.A lot of christians talk the talk but don’t walk the walk.They say don’t do this its wrong to steal,kill,and destroy,yet they do it.When someone else does it they are terrorists.A lot use religion to justify what they do wrong all the while judging others.When people of a certain group do something eveyone is expected to turn a blind eye,but the moment someone else does something similar they declare war and say they are violating human rights.They sometimes use religion to soften people into submission for their evil deeds.
“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.”
Desmond Tutu
LikeLike
Thanks for clarifying , Abagond, about the points you made I missed on India
As far as Arab slavery, I brought in some figures about those killed on the way, but, I couldnt give you exact facts but it wouldnt be acurate to not have any referance….something like “Arab slave trade….numbers unkown”, because you know it was over a million…Im not really trying to count or make it a contest of numbers, feel free if that makes your point to Fox News followers , to make these comparisons …I see plenty of slaughter to go around for all
I can agree Chritianity and the West definitly not being any better than anyone else, or above scrutiny….as far as being just worse than anyone along with the Mongrals….well, I dont know if I totaly agree with that, but , nice to know exactly how you feel about it…I see human cruelty in abundance from all spectrums of the human existance
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think when there are extremist they are equally the same.
LikeLike
@ futurodellanazione
If you want your comments to appear you need to learn to somehow express your opinion without using racial slurs:
LikeLike
how much of it boils down to this, categorically speaking…
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dome_of_the_Rock
again, back to balfour
LikeLike
@ Shady_Grady
It is so sad that someone that stupid has had a public platform for over 30 years. Sadder still that her readers vote in a country with the hugest military machine ever seen.
LikeLike
[…] Are Christians more violent than Muslims? What does the record say? Murder rate: White America, like most Christian countries in the Americas, Africa and Eastern Europe, is markedly more violent th… […]
LikeLiked by 1 person
As usual Abagond’s post is timely elegant and insightful.
What i still ponder is how the majority of our species is too primitive as yet otherwise religion would not exist.
I saw the falseness of the belief and the god concept when I was a child.
And now I realize that while we are the apex species of this planet ,our greater cognitive abilities as well as physiologic attributes are not equally distributed amongst members of our species.
And even the greatest achievements of our best members are dependent on external factors of time ,accumulation and even luck.
And one may hope for a better future but evolution gave us white people after black people and the only things that got “better” is technology – the people seem quite worse.
Interesting thing about that drone striking – which is a preferable death? sword,fist,fire,water,gun or bomb/missile – if your at ground zero target ,then you won’t have time to feel anything.
LikeLike
Is “Whitey” a slur?
LikeLike
@ Abagond
Thankyou from a Muslim. For a dozen years or so there has been so much misinformation and prejudice against Muslims—that facts—any facts—that are accurate are really welcome.
We are all brothers in humanity—family—and the worst potential in our brother human being is also the worst potential in us—-and the best potential in our brother human being is also the best potential in us…..so as you said Christian or Muslim is not the label we should use but humanity…………I hope that the facts pointed to in the post will awaken in all of us a desire to work for peace and prevent war and voilence
LikeLike
So Why don’t you move in a muslim country? Lack of freedom is a form of violence, and, in a muslim country you cannot consider yourself free expecially if you aren’t muslim or if you are a woman…
LikeLike
And yet, Randy, even so, the US murder is very high compared to what US citizens, Christians and people who classify themselves as “white” call “civilized”…
LikeLike
murder RATE ^. I wish we could modify.
LikeLike
Enrico, what exactly do you call freedom ?
My kids want to leave the US because they are afraid of the level of violence here, and they cannot understand the violent obsession with guns. So violent that the “Christian” murderer of 21 children is seldom if never mentioned, studied and criticized, while the “Muslim” murderers of 4 people (and possibly many more if their bombs had been “better”) are scrutinized from all possible angles, even those that don’t exist, or only in the minds of racists.
Freedom is all relative.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Alphonso, I agree with what you said before this:
“I think white people are the most violent people on planet earth.”
Which I think is a little “generalizing”.
Racist politics, which include seeing oneself as “white” and therefore superior, are violent. That’s probably where the root of the problem is. This idea that “whites” (whoever that is, a very fluctuant concept too) are “leaders” is the ultimate violence in its utter arrogance. It’s even arrogant against nature, so it is totally violent.
It’s what leads corporate firms (I think it corresponds to “The motivation for the violence of white people has always been power and profit.” in what you said: Capitalism) to destroy the ecosystem we all live in without caring a bit, because all they see is themselves and their “right”.
Destroying the very planet we live on is even more violent than the rest. It’s inescapable, even by the idiots who do it !!!
Nuclear power, GMOs, chemical fertilizers/herbicides, industrialized agriculture, ALL of it stems from the same utterly STUPID racial/racist arrogance.
LikeLike
Cornlia, I’m not american, I don’t know what is going on in your country, all these episodes involving guns and so on… Just a question: Do you really think there is a christian violence and a muslim violence? Fear generate violence and religion will give you just fear as any other discipline dividing people in categories: fear of the “other”, the “different”, the “infidel”. Less violent civilizations in history were/are probably those which left back religions and all the divisions that come from them. Use your brain, your intelligence… leave clerics to their paranoid fears.
LikeLike
@ futurodellanazione
If you are not sure, read the comment policy:
LikeLike
@ futurodellanazione yeah dude look it up it and its internet abbreviation is very rude
am i worse as a white person because i’m fighting addiction and all that ish i have 4 preteen kids i shoot i ride i am a communications specialist
who do you want on your team
you know no further bets
LikeLike
Reading this post is quite frustrating considering all the things you overlooked in order to make your point. For instance the murder statistics in nearly all of the islamic countries are about as accurate as suicide statistics in a ultra conservative catholic country. Or in other words not even close to a third of the real number. And then this, your list of muslim wars:1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 7.0m
1681-1707: Conquests of Aurangzeb: 5.0m
1967-1970: Nigerian Civil War: 1.0m
1980-1988: Iran-Iraq War: 1.0m
1983-2005: Second Sudanese Civil War: 1.0m
1989-2001: Afghan Civil War: 1.4m
Where did you find this list? In a Wahabist manifesto or something? How did you manage miss all the muslim Caliphates wars? The countless Jihad incursions into Africa, Europe and India? Several was over 1 million casualties I can assure you. And since you obviously know about the Ottoman empire why didnt you include their actual wars and and violent colonialism? Islam was such a fundamental part of their aggressive expansion, just like Christian nations violent expansions. And do you know the reason to why there are hardly any Buddhists in the Middle East any more? Muslims actually considered them lower than Christians and Jews, About 10 million buddhist have been killed in Jihads in Afghanistan, Turkey and other regions. Wahabistic muslims have worked really hard to erase them and their culture from these regions, blowing up ancient Buddha statues and ransacking museums. The total number of Hindus killed in Jihad incursions into India is is close 80 millions. Around 9million christians are thought to have been martyred by muslims. Of course this number is infinetly higher since so little statistics exist on Africans Christian populations that have simply disapeared during Muslim expansions/wars. And why is the Arab slavery so overlooked? Even though you might perhaps not know the actual casualty list does that mean you should ignore it in order to prove a point? Im starting to feel like a broken record now. 2 million africans alone has died in the transports across the Sahara and the Red Sea.
LikeLike
@ Barchan
That list comes from the Wikipedia. The link is in the post. So are the links to the main sources I used.
If you can document wars, massacres, persecutions, genocides, etc, that led to more than a million deaths, I will gladly add them. But please note that where there is a range, I go by the lowest estimate. The numbers mean “at LEAST these many people were killed”. I am trying not to exaggerate the numbers for either side.
I saw that in the Wikipedia but it had no citation. Can you provide one?
The list is unavoidably incomplete and Eurocentric. I know that. I addressed it in the post:
My aim is not to “bash Christians” but to put the shoe on the other foot so “Christians” can see what it feels like and understand how unfair it is. How maddening “facts” can be. How unobjective they are, especially in the service of us v them names.
This post is modelled pretty much directly on the way whites “prove” blacks are more violent than whites by using crime statistics.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Dear Mr. Abagond, who at the end will win this manslaughtering race? It is really so important? Probably all the religions coming from middle east (judaism, christianity, islam) are violent at the core, so as all the ideologies (comunism, fascism, ecc ecc) You are young! Keep yourselves free from all of this! You don’t need to follow paranoid clerics of any religions or ideologist of any sort. Use your brain, your intelligence, build a future for your sons. FREEDOM that’s the Key. God is in your creativity and in your freedom to decide what to do of your life, something that all the clerics of all the religions Do Not Really Like.
LikeLike
Barchan, I go with Abagond. Please provide sources, I am also interested in this. If the sources are Arabic, Turkish and/or from majority Muslim countries studies, it’s much better, because there ARE people everywhere who try to tell it like it is, instead of “protecting” their culture or religion.
And it is the Muslims duty to take care of their own problems… I think we hear too few of them on the current fundamentalism these days. I know they exist as individuals, because I have talked about this with them, but it would be good to have scholarly work sources on all this.
Thanks.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Enrico, you are right. BUT, the problem is that there are many people who *use* God (or the concept of) to act malignantly against others. We can’t but act to oppose them. And it doesn’t work with only love and flowers and nice words. I wish it would.
LikeLike
OK , I get what you are saying now, Abagond, by all means lets ridicule the Fox News followers mentality and prejudice against Islam
Down in Brazil, I dont get to hear the Fox News din as much as you have to up there
After the Boston bombings, even before the capture, reading the news papers and comments on the internet, it was frightening the howl in the background that started coming in….an ominous background shreik , that came from all sides “left and right”, filled with acuasations, implications , outright wrong information ,starting from the wrong reports from the news organisations, to people not knowing about the conflict with Russia and Checenya rebels, people screaming about constitutional rights and the Miranda rights, when in the end they were read to the suspect , all kinds of false statements and lots of emotions for the wrong reason
People are at each others throats before any real facts have come in…
It seems like some division with the left and right, but, its far more deeper than that..Islamic fundamentalist bombers are actualy more deep right wing than left, but, people on the far left who love anyone who attacks the USA , sympathise with the suspect, calling him so innocent looking, like he was led along by his brother, but, he was a cold blooded murderer, and, people are trying to make it out like they operated alone with no influence from outside, when Russias authorities tried to tip off the CIA and FBI that the dead suspect was dangerous, I mean that doesnt sound like only in house planning, how could Russia know something really dangerous about this person? …and of course, the CIA and FBI let us down again…while we go throught the dog and pony show with the TSA at the airports
And the right wingers are so ready to jump to the conclusion that they are Arab bombers , and are ready to go balistics on immigration and dont even get that these bombers are the same as right wing Christian bombers like Eric Rudolph…they are religious concervative extremists, ready to kill…yet, they dont represent their religions at all, the Mosque had conflicts with the dead suspect and nearly kicked him out and they wouldnt bury him as a Muslim…they failed their religions miserably…Rudoph sure did also
Extremism in all its forms is what has to be scrutinised and cracked down on, not religion…anyone who decides to place a bomb in a public space to voice his opisition to government policies has crossed the line
This background howl and sceam from all sides, right against left and up against the middle is so depressing and draining, it makes me want to throw up, my emotions are totaly saturated and raked over the coals…I dont know if Im capable to have a rational discussion about it
LikeLike
you have to overlay the statistics with a ‘political map’ too democide doesn’t always reflect the nature of everyone who lives somewhere that their government is doing some dirt too ie by the other sociological category to create the statistics in the first place
LikeLike
[…] Are Christians more violent than Muslims? […]
LikeLike
Linda, music is one of the most important ways you can define a culture and how a people express themselves…and , I can guarentee you, the concepts I am talking about , didnt start in Egypt.
Cornlia, Ive been trying to explain, who ever put together two duple triple rhythms, looped them back on each other, with call responce syncopation, and cross rhythm , was dealing with advanced laws of mathamatics , exactly designed to have an affect by turning off the thinking brains and based on people holding their own parts , starts taking on a life of its own , and puts the practitioners in touch with intuition and using shuffle steps, and total body immersion with pelvic thrusts and head balance all co ordinated together and in time with the beats. Modern quantum physics and fractal definitions almost mimic these concepts in their descriptions as well as modern science is telling us that our intuition is actualy in charge of our bodies actions , and not our thinking brain, and these musical concepts Im talking about , are like a demonstration of our intuition in motion…if you ask me, that is genius and what civilisation is about and part ot the great steps ahead in human developement of modern man…they were some of the first steps…
So you really have to abandon conventional thinking for a second and ask yourself this, they found bone flutes in Europe , maybe 60 thousand years old…do you think humans invented bone flutes before drums? When the first modern humans evolved in Africa, what are they saying? 120 thousand years ago? You can state the fact if you know it, I also beleive the first migration of modern humans , over the Red Sea, that led to all the modern humans to populate all the areas outside of Africa happened about 90 thousand years ago? Correct that if you know the fact…but , no matter what, the 30 thousand years of modern man evolving in Africa before they crossed the Red Sea, is long enough for that modern man, who is equal to us in all levals, could be raised in modern society today, is enough time, that long ago , to actualy start to evolve the music concepts Im talking about, for sure the initial stages
and when I read the Igbo language was the basis for words in Egyption culture, and some semetic culturs, Indian languages and even English, I realised that the first migration out of Africa also took some of the early expresions of beats that had already been evolved in Igbo culture, which I always wondered about a similar type of groove that you can find from Africa to the Middle East, to India , to Indo China to Samoa…its not as complex as the evolved below the Sahara African beats became, but they are the traces, I beleive of some of the earliast drum and beat concepts of humans…I mean cmon, drums would have been invented before bone flutes..Africa is the home of the drum…even if arceologists will tell you the most ancient drums were found in Mesopatania, some clay pot drums…but common sence logic tells you, Africa is the home of the drum and , early man must have been in touch with the drum from a long long time ago…
Even if you cant fathom that long ago, you know that these concepts Im talking about, were in sub Sahara black Africa before they were anywhere else
Linda, you cant really talk about migrating patterns and where you think Africans have migrated without actualy checking out the traditional drum dance cultures of all over Africa, and see where the concepts Im talking about are concentrated and the most prolific…you have to go to the wiki link , I brought in, music and druming of sub sahara Africa and start checking out each tribe with youtubes of their traditional drums and dance…there are amazing similarities in so many tribes from below the Sahara, and, the ones in the North that are similar, more often as not come from two sources, the Berbers and Gnawas, who were the desert travelers and brought these concepts north …you are just saying words as though migrations were going back and forth, but the basic fundimentals of music Im talking about , without a doubt, didnt come from Egypt. The lower nile goes into other countries and I said the map you brought in 6000 years ago shows the Sahel was not desert and would have been a East to West flow of the concepts Im talking about
LikeLike
BR, you posted in the wrong place, so I will respond in the correct post.
LikeLike
…and to continue, words are just words, look at the youtubes and they will tell you the story and then you can link the words you read about into the actual visualsation of those cultures
So, Cornila, it realy depends on how much you value that these ancient concepts that started below the Sahara by various cultures as diverse as the Igbo, and Pygmies and even the oldest known, the San, have elements of these concepts, but not as strong as Igbo. It depends on if you value that those concepts come all the way into today with as much force if not more than any pyramid ever built…I mean I sure perceive it in our cultures, the amont of force it drives our popular cultures , not to mention the deeper cultures that arnt popular but are innovating up to this very moment…I mean my gosh, if that isnt genius, the early advancements that modern man made, that really , are the first steps to all the knowledge advancements that humans have made, from the Egyptions, to the Indians, the Chinese, the native Americans, the Arabs, into Western advancements etc….it had to start somewhere and that is in sub Sahara black Africa…its clear as a bell to me…it didnt come from Egypt…
LikeLike
B.R. it would be good if you could be more concise in the way you tell things because it’s a lot to read and in the end I’m not sure if you’re saying this or that.
What I did above is ask you a simple question: do you have sources to support the fact that Egyptian civilization spread in Africa (what you said) instead of the opposite, African cultures contributing to the rise of an Egyptian civilization (what I said).
I was not asking whether you *believe* or *feel* something but rather if you have sources that I (and others, I guess) could be referred to. I thought (because I read that) that you were saying Ancient Egypt was the origin, but…
I *think* you are now saying the same as me (that is that the various African cultures contributed to the rise of a great civilization) but I’m not sure because it seems you are trying to convince me of that … ? When this is actually what I said above …
LikeLike
That’s right Linda, B.R. posted in the wrong place and I didn’t check that… which makes things even more confusing.
LikeLike
“” My aim is not to “bash Christians” but to put the shoe on the other foot so “Christians” can see what it feels like and understand how unfair it is. How maddening “facts” can be”” Your point that I have missed in that case sorry. But I never said that you “bash Christians” and I didnt focus on that part because im not that confident in my knowledge in that. Anyhow here is a list in english of Jihads against other peoples. http://www.historyofjihad.com/sitemap.html. I know I mentioned India specifically http://www.historyofjihad.org/india.html http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NjqSYP36_AY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNjqSYP36_AY%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded This video that I have posted here before is very educational about the Arab slavery and the ongoing denialism that is present in todays arab countries. Also the way the old slave records in arab countries are actively kept from nowadays Black African scholars is really frustrating! He also touches the history revisionism that is rampant through the arab world today about slavery. Different figures exist and about the amount of victims. Since it pretty much has been ongoing for a millenia I would say it is in the same numbers as as the Trans-atlantic one, 20 millions, when you add Ottoman records and adds the whites as well. One diffrence is the more well hidden records now that the North Africans and arab world wants to trade and build relations with Black African nations……. And btw you mention the Reconquista isnt that an reaction towards the moorish (North african muslim) invasion? How can you put it as an exclusively christian war?
LikeLike
commented with my forename here David//Barchan, just to clarify
LikeLike
sheesh if you have to remove my answer comment (which would be nice to know why) you can at least remove both because my last one make no sense at all on its own.
LikeLike
@ David Barchan
Not sure what you mean. I did not remove any of your comments.
LikeLike
oh, sorry my bad. the longer comment didnt show up until hours after on my dash, so it was just the short one there.
LikeLike
Barchan, I am reposting your video. It didn’t pop up immediately.
LikeLike
The Ugly Truth…Organized Religion has killed more human beings than anyone or anything…Historical Fact!
Ty
realhistoryww.com
LikeLike
i dont’t care if christians more violent than muslims
i prefer make peace than war
just my opinion
LikeLike
Its not too surprising that Christians tend to look at outsiders as bad; after all thats what their religion is based on…..if you aren’t christian you go to hell, its the one unforgiveable sin in the christian religion….to be different.
To be other than them, anything else can be forgiven, murder, rape, theft, torture etc….but being the other is damnable and can only be purged with fire.
So really; the fact that Christians might be prone to racism, sexism, xenophobia etc….isn’t surprising, it starts in one area of thought with them and spreads to others.
That and I suppose the forgiveness angle, no matter what they do they can always seek forgiveness so they don’t have to worry about sinning and when they do they can just turn it on their victims and say they are bad people because they won’t forgive them for what they did.
I guess a good addition to this post would be to compare the violence rates of societies before and after they converted to Christianity/Islam.
And personally I do call it Christian Violence; because any act by a christian represents their culture and religion. And yes; Christians are among the most violent people in the world. There’s some irony there.
That being said; as an athiest we have had plenty of violent mass murders ourselves.
LikeLike
V-4
That is, if you don’t actually follow what is is deemed to be Jesus’s word. “Love thy like thyself”. and all the rest.
I was born and baptized the same day in the Catholic church (I wish I had had a say on that) and I never adhered to the Church and rituals. However, I had priests for catechism who were left-wing and very active socially and politically, so I saw the side of Christianity that “should” be. I definitely left the “Church” on the day of a wonderful sermon on “welcoming the stranger” when, after leaving the church (where Muslim kids and their Imam were welcome to do the Coranic school every Wednesday afternoon and Friday while we were doing catéchism), some of the people who were at mass with me started insulting (without being too loud so they wouldn’t get retaliation, the cowards) “Arabs” who were crossing the street in front of the church. To me that was IT.
I still think the “word” is cool and guiding, all the rest is selfish and abusive BS and has nothing to do with “Christ”.
LikeLike
^”thy neighbor” of course…
LikeLike
Thanks for the video, whoever posted it .
I’m watching/listening to it while tidying stuff, as I always do, keeping my mind busy learning… So far (10 min) I know the stuff he’s talking about, and I’m sure I’ll learn new stuff after that introduction.
This is the type of docs I use elements of in class, to teach my students, whenever the occasion pops up.
In the last years however, and that had NEVER happened before, whenever I started a video featuring an African(-American), I had racist “bursts” from some students, like that girl who shouted “oh the baboon” when my Texan and African-American penpal appeared to introduces herself and her hobbies in a video interview I had made of her… I said: “what did you just say ?” Appalling, but the girl was rebuffed by her classmates right away so it was a positive thing in the end.
LikeLike
Dr Garvey Jr’s vision of the Arabs (and the Chinese/Mongols too) as “nothing” because nomadic and therefore having “nothing” in the place of a civilization is little reductive, isn’t it ? I mean, if they had had “nothing”, they wouldn’t have been able to conquer what they conquered, you need political unity for that… That they were invaders and colonizers in the same manner as the Christians, yes, but “nothing” ??
That would equate to agreeing with the secular racism (and man, that one existed before “racism” as a science was invented) against the Tzigane/Gipsies/Rom, that nomadic people who every other European person is taught to be mistrustful of. Why ? Well, apparently mostly because they are nomadic… And “dirty”. And “thieves”. And “murderers”…
I’ll comment on the whole after finishing watching it.
LikeLike
About Dr Garve Jr’s conference ^^
Is his explanation of the reason why people were first sold as slaves to the Arabs what prompts so many today to say that “Africans” sold their own ?” (33′) If yes, that’s sad and sounds like what happened much later in Haiti, where France forced the Haitians to pay for their freedom.
More problematic generalizations (I already noted that in my previous comment) that I find quite appalling (and so reminiscent of some the talk by American soldiers going to Iraq or usual racists), or at least extremely regrettable…
“desert rats who would come out of their sand holes”
“Coming like termites”…
“An Arab, an Englishman, a white American, a Frenchman, A German, they’re all the same breed… yeah, thieving, slave-trading people”…
He does know that the Zulu were invaders too, right ? Or does their cruelty become the glory of the African, somehow ?
Hmm, so all Africans/Blacks are good, law-abiding, honest people ? That’s kinda dangerous talk isn’t it ? To imagine that your “breed” is all good as opposed another “breed” that’s all bad… African-Americans must be sometimes surprised and even shocked when having to deal with some Africans I know… if that’s what they’re told. This sounds like Africa is a fairy-tale land…
New-Guinea ? That’s “blacks” in the racial classification, in the eyes of the “white man”, but are the dark-skinned people of the Pacific ocean Africans ? In that case we are ALL Africans, right now, all over the planet… since we all are their descendants.
Doesn’t this approach of things bring more confusion when it is supposed to clear things up ?
It is surprising that he would teach African-American Muslims about historical realities, but then why insert things that have nothing to do with it and which also are false and/or anachronic ?
Jews… hell it’s so easy it’s laughable. “Who had the money?” Yep, he could also explain WHY ? Why they were the ones asked to put their hands in it so that the others could clear their souls and go to heaven ? This reduction of historical facts to “races” is so easy… Like, there were no poor Jews in Europe, right ?
Well, I guess I did learn a few historical details in this conference, but the conceptualization is nothing new.
About the Sudan. Here is a very important scholar on this topic:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n05/mahmood-mamdani/the-politics-of-naming-genocide-civil-war-insurgency
this is an article our Erythrean Race Theory teacher gave us to read and I discovered someone who understands and explains a lot from an African perspective.
“It is the descendents of Kemet who are being murdered there, by the Arabs.” It is not that simple, as “race” would make us believe. Many of those so-called “Arabs” would be classified as “blacks” in the US and many of the ones qualified as “Kemet” by him are in fact Muslims. The vision of things from an American point of view is very often simplistic, unfortunately. Add to that the fact that “Christians” defend the Christians of South Sudan and that could have led to total disaster…
I wonder, is there an African thinker somewhere (I still have a few to read but I know some Africans who are thinking about it) who has reflected on the possibility that the acceptance of the European concept of race (which Garvey Jr calls forth quite heavily) is what is killing the bird in the egg ?
I know some (many) here don’t agree with my/that take, so there is no need to jump all over me. We know we don’t agree. I’m trying to think of what could be a way to liberate us all of that ideology.
At the same time, I do understand that resorting to the “white man’s” counter-concept of “black man” (may ?) seems useful as a unifying concept. But it is still the white man’s thing and happens in the confrontation with him. What about a “Native” concept ? There are people trying to come up with one. Isn’t the perpetuation of “blackness” versus “whiteness” what is preventing something new, based on African philosophy, religions, concepts, from sprouting and taking roots ? What is keeping the “white man” in the game, his game and his rules ?
I’m just asking. I’m not saying this would be a solution. I just don’t think going by the “white man’s” rule is the solution. At all.
He says it himself (about racial/color classifications) : “we’ve got some bad thoughts. That’s why we’re not ruling the world now. You know we’ve got to get rid of all those thoughts. Clean up our minds.”
(Also, doesn’t he forget that those classifications (in Jamaica, Haiti) were not the deed of the enslaved Africans (I never say African slaves) but those of the colonizer/enslaver ?)
What does it mean if not that (abandoning the reference to race/color) ?
Well at the same time he is talking about “race destruction” on the African continent… So does he mean the only solution is “race purity” ? (Which he seems to imply by saying “we need to get them all out” when talking about SA…)
That’s where the loop of racial conception of the world is closing on what I think is a trap. “Each” on “his” continent -as if earth had set it so, a red, a yellow, a white and a black continent, really ? Each deport the “wrong”-color people to achieve the right tone ? Where will that solution leads us if not to global genocide ?
We really need to stop thinking in terms of race, and the one who should start is the “white man”, because “he” is the one who started it. (And I’m not just saying it, I’m doing it, and many people don’t like it, for various reasons, starting with the racists who call me a traitor or -the last one I got- “une métisseuse”)
At the same time, I’m not blaming African scholars for following that path, because they have had enough, so it’s understandable. As an easy solution. But nothing is ever simple and easy in the human world.
LikeLike
@Cornelia
The problem is; on the average, a christians neighbors are other christians.
At absolute best; it translates into the “exception” mode of thinking for racists, classists, xenophobes etc….this guy who lives next to me is alright but the rest still fit my way of thinking.
And the translation of the innate mode of thought in Christianity of “different is bad” to everyother kind of different is pretty much inevitable.
Can’t teach Christianity and forgiveness without teaching that as well.
Ultimately; whether you love them or not its going to create a bias in you against people who are different or cultures not your own. Which already exist anyways, this just gives spiritual and divine justification/reinforcement to that thought process and believe style.
And of course I maybe giving too much credit towards people actually knowing or taking in the religion/philosphy of their area.
Especially since there was a study that came out where it turned out that anybody who went to a church of any kind (christian, muslim etc….) were all more likely to be racist, regardless of whether or not their church or religion taught against that kind of thinking.
LikeLike
Any reference to that study ^V-4 ? Thanks…
I believe that racism has a religious structure in itself, which I hope I can explore and/or read about. I started reading and studying about race/racism a year ago, after observing, thinking, acting and reacting by myself, so I imagine someone has already written about that, so I’m not surprised.
LikeLike
Well, if we look at what the holy books say in their texts I would say that they are about as violent both. There is enough blood to go around in the bible and koran is also full of violence. It even tells you to beat your wife into submission. Yes, it is there. I’ve read that book too, so no need to explain it. And yes, I am not a christian nor muslim, nor I am an atheist either. I have my own convictions based on my personal experiences and thinking.
LikeLike
@Cornelia
Here’s a link to an article about the study
Re-reading it; turns out it wasn’t about Muslims, Buddhists etc….just Christians.
There’s also a link in the article to another study about racism and religion.
http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/26776/Study-Links-Religious-Groups-and-Racial-Bias?view=full
LikeLike
Also I believe if you compare Christians in the US towards other religions inregards to crime, even in instances where population and class levels are comparable they still have higher tendencies towards criminality.
LikeLike
Thanks V-4
LikeLike
Bulanik, I definitely concur on what you said above. Nations / States / Bureaucracies / Capitalism as it organizes itself as supposedly outside and independent of these while being totally dependent when it comes to “solving crises”, are extremely violent psychologically if not physically. The only thing that can contain them if when the people truly exerts its right by not being reluctant to sacrifice for the next generations. Which is what democracy is: a never ending struggle.
I recently read Weber as part of a sociology class and I found his description of bureaucracy quite interesting, and scary too !
There have been more modern/recent studies of that, but I haven’t had time to get into that. Marx’s Capital also brings a lot of insight into how the Nation state functions, totally in relation to the “needs” and benefit of the class that manages to hijack power, when the People isn’t united and active.
The new ruling class these days being the oligarchy that is building its fortunes on the financial markets, the extreme form of capitalism, making it harder for the People to know who to target, because they are not the “official” rulers.
And THAT’s extremely violent, when you can’t even see who’s hurting you…
LikeLike
The other day, a French “socialist” (brackets for “not really anymore”) politician and minister said this in a sentence: “democracy is sacred”…
This was a huge lapsus as he meant “the Republic is sacred”… Democracy is the People’s thing, not the Institutions’… Very very revealing of their mindset, that accepts no change and certainly no change from the people, which they imagine they can keep framed and trapped in the “sacredness” of slow-moving and seemingly eternal rituals.
LikeLike
In this French radio program (some of it has Argentinians speaking Spanish),
http://www.la-bas.org/article.php3?id_article=2740&var_recherche=monsieur+tout+blanc
someone explains that the advent of Pope Francis is, for the neo-nazi, white-thinking, defendors of a “Christian white Occident”, this is a sign that their attempts at suppressing all obstacles (understand people) on the way to that “renaissance” of the Catholics were right.
This Pope has NEVER defended anyone, even Jesuit priests, against the brutal dictatorship in Argentina…
LikeLike
In this program, someone else quotes a Brazilian priest (because there are real good priests who are humble). He said: “as long as I was saying I wanted to help the poor, I was called a saint, when I started asking about the origin of poverty, I was called a communist”.
The commentors is explaining how the Theory of Liberation priests were persecuted because they designated capitalism as the main problem…
LikeLike
“white america”? what about latino and african american America? They are also Christian and with a much higher murder rate than whites (mostly due to gangs, poverty, but not to religion).
I don’t dismiss the title of the article but it seems not too refined in the thought process.
Also you talk about “Christian wars” and mention Vietnam, Korea, Russian Civil War, Indochina war… some of those were due the the Cold War (Communism against Liberalism, or Civil wars and Independence war). Those are not Christian wars at all, it has nothing to do.
LikeLike
@ tse
If I had done it the other way – compare America as a whole to the Middle East – I would instantly get comments that America is more violent than the Middle East because, duh, it has blacks, that outside of violent ghettos America is more peaceful. Well, not so.
Well, that is the point, isn’t it? That talking about “Islamic” violence makes about as much sense as talking about “Christian” violence. Sure, Muslims use religion to excuse violence, but so do Christians – as in their talk of “godless communists”. But even if America were Buddhist or Scientologist it would have still opposed the Soviet Union for simple geopolitical reasons.
Talking about “Islamic” violence is just like talking about “black” crime: labels do not prove causation. They just prove bigotry.
LikeLike
Permission to be truthful? Unhappiness religions has been used as an excuse to kill. Those religions aren’t good or bad – this depends so much how they’re used.
Religious fanatics born in poor countries, amidst either Illirerate people or desinformed.
Many mulism countries are poor and the local religion’s leaders can do as they wish to put things from the Koran out of the context to reach their own objectives.
Many christianity leaders are doing the same.
Except from an particulary group(Jeovah Witnesses) the others incite hate and murder.
Now accuse religions is wrong, you can acuse fanatic people doing this.
LikeLike
You didn’t mention anything about Christians bombing scientist or abortion clinics violence against women or the fact they have burnt people at stake for not following their faith
LikeLike
Terrism has nothing to do with faith its an excuse its really sad most of these people if they’re read their own holy text it tell them not to do those things
LikeLike
It is impossible to have been raised in the Middle East and not hate America. It is instilled and inherent hatred from birth on, passed on from generation to generation, nothing but HATE. Muslims/Islams HATE certain groups of people, specifically Christians, and they clearly teach death to Americans. Any Muslim/Islam person who denies that is lying. Mentalities like that are radical, they are inherently mentally ill from the abuse, suppression, and violence that is part of every Muslim child’s upbringing, and they are dangerous for the world. They are currently killing machines, and they kill for power and position, whereas their victims, Americans and Christians, kill in self defense. It is night and day who is the better people. Muslim and Islam is full of mental illness. FULL.
LikeLike
I AM A MUSLIM WOMAN AND NO ONE OPRESSES ME AND I’M PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THE VAIL it is better than walking around and people staring at my figure and features I mean I don’t think freedom mean to satisfy you western men’s sexual desires and reach that bullshit standard of beauty I mean you have no right to put such standard. But Islam doesn’t and I’m happy I study and one day I’ll become a scientist and fucking blow you minds up
LikeLike
America isn’t a “White” country and infact 50% of the murder in america is committed by blacks. Your taking a diverse country and comparing it to a homogenous country then disingenuously insinuating that whites commit the majority of the crime in america(they don’t) and then your disingenuously assuming that whites are the majority in America(they are not)
LikeLike
@More anti white goodies.
Even with blacks excluded, white America has a higher murder rate, and much higher total crime rate, than most muslim countries in the “Middle East”
LikeLike
@ More anti white goodies
Not sure what you are talking about. In the post I compared the murder rate of WHITE America to Middle Eastern countries. White America has a higher murder rate than almost the whole Middle East – only Palestine and Yemen are worse.
LikeLike
What about wars initiated directly as a result of religion? Christians don’t even come close to Islamic violence. Unfortunately, while there are Christians all over the Middle East and world in general who are being persecuted and slaughtered by Muslims for their faith, instead of making people more aware of these slayings, you post specious statistics to promulgate the “violence” of Christianity. Please focus more on the six month old babies who are being beheaded by Muslims for being born into Christian families, thank you.
LikeLike
@ Frank
The point of the post was not to prove that Christians are more violent but that the labels “Christian” and “Muslim” are misused.
LikeLike
I got that point the first time I read it. The title of the post is a rhetorical question.
Sometimes I wonder how some people read other things in a post yet miss the main obvious point.
LikeLike
[…] Are Christians more violent than Muslims? […]
LikeLike
“Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading.”
How is either example misleading? We know that both Hitler and the 9/11 terrorists actions were informed, at least in strong part, by their religious beliefs.
“Some blame technology, yet the Muslim world has all the weapons the West had to kill over 100 million people.”
The muslim world did not have anything close to the firepower that the West possessed during the most lethal confrontations in history (and still does not).
The West has been at a great technological advantage for much of the history that you’ve outlined when it really matters: when population density has been high enough to inflict massive casualties in short order with very powerful weapons. What reason do we have to believe it would be any different had history favored muslim technological supremacy?
LikeLike
The current hate for, repression of and violence against women in non christian countries far exceeds current “Christian” violence.
If ww1, 2, Vietnam and so forth are called Christian wars then what was the gulf war called? Just bc Christians were involved doesnt give anyone the right to call it a Christian war.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on Black Supremacy Love and Unity.
LikeLike
What an ignorant, completely misinformed “blog”. You are comparing a people (caucasians) with a history of modernization and exploration with those (non-white) who were either stuck in a primitave way of life or were isolationists. As far a Christianity goes, Nearly each war that you named that was Christian had nothing to do with Christianity the wars themselves were not fought because of Christianity.
LikeLike
that was the whole point of the blog post. Your comment actually validated the blog post’s main point.
Calling wars fought not because of Islam, but with heavy involvement of Muslims a “muslim” war is just as disingenuous as calling a war fought not because of Christianity, but involving a large number of Christians a “Christian” war.
But since if there are some people who think Muslims are violent because they are fighting a war, it might make as much sense to call Christians violent because they fight wars (regardless of whether it has anything to do with Christianity per se). Or even if it was over “universal values” held by the West, they might have some origin in Christianity teaching.
LikeLike
DON’T FORGET THAT ISLAM WAS FOUNDED ON VIOLENCE. MOHAMMED GOT HIS EARLY CONVERTS THROUGH WARS AND CRUEL VIOLENCE.
LikeLike
this thread is funny…all the long list and some frustrating irrelevant comments on why someone left the church or not make me ask why all these propaganda? who cares if you left the church or not? it is your life and you will face your God someday so save us of the boring talk until then.
back to the list here, i will like the author of this article to start the profiling from muhammad the founder of islam and the founder of Christianity…and lol we will see how this list fares… or we should ask why do we still have 99% of muslims kill until today for some gods AS THEY SHOUT ALLAHU AKBAR while 1 % of them moderates are MUTE?
i think labelling wars fought by kings/military leadership in the west as christian wars who never said ‘IN JESUS NAME I KILL U’ like our muslim terrorists do from the 7th century until today is HIGHLY MISLEADING. smiling 🙂
LikeLike
why iran can be threat for all coutries , while Iran did not start any war In the last 100 years?
israel love only peace!!
israel has occupied Palestinian territories.israel army has chemical and nuclear wepoans and The leaders of Israel are crazy and War criminal.
Saudi Arabia[vahhabi kingdom] and qatar and u.a.e and other vahhabi’s governments supporting al-qaeda .
and usa government[big evil] support Saudi Arabia[vahhabi kingdom] and qatar and u.a.e .
all vahhabi’s groups and al-qaeda are enemies of real islam.their leader is muhammad ben abdul vahhab [not hummand that is messenger].
usa can stop Saudi and qatar in al-qaeda supporting [money-weapon support] .
LikeLike
Christianity had nothing at all to do with WWI or WWII. Your article is vague and misleading. At best it’s “Speculation” since there are no really accurate figures for any of the other wars mentioned, those are only estimates. And, if you want to know how many people Jihadists have killed:
http://www.religionofpeace.com for up to date statistics.
LikeLike
lol ^^
LikeLike
Hmmm. serious site this is!!! The first war of the muslims was Saturday, 13 March 624…. you guys “forgot almost 500 years of muslim tyranny, and how did you dot that i ask?!? because you have your head stuck soooo far up your asre that you cant see the truth…. peace our and gor bless the atheists!!!
LikeLike
[…] died in Christian wars: 113.8 million compared to the 16.4 million who died in Muslim wars." Are Christians more violent than Muslims? | Abagond __________________ The Oracle: We're all here to do what we're all here to do. I'm interested […]
LikeLike
[…] of "muslim" ones still doe I don't blame christians I blame people like you anyways. Are Christians more violent than Muslims? | Abagond Christian […]
LikeLike
When a person commits a crime if they are christian people wouldn’t blame chrisitanity but if that person is muslim then they called him islamic terrorist
Calling, the 9/11 terrorists “Islamic” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: its misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.
LikeLike
The interesting thing to me isn’t that Hitler and the Nazi’s were christian.
But that by and large that seems to be something almost totally unaware of by a large portion of the christian community.
The very idea that Hitler and Nazi’s could be Christians is just mind blowing. Even to none Christians like myself……the idea of Hitler being so evil just pretty and dedicated to his cause pretty much seemed to over-ride even the thought he could have been christian.
But I guess that just comes down to the ol’ “everything good is god, everything bad is man”…..so if a society, people or individual do something bad that’s “man” but if they do something good that’s the result of the Church and God.
LikeLike
[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/ […]
LikeLike
Reblogged this on The Tale Of Bitter Truth.
LikeLike
Your mind is blown by that. That doesn’t surprise me, v-4.
Perhaps you believe Muslims are inherently more evil, but don’t know why.
Perhaps you believe theories that are critical of US foreign policy are merely anti-American or the product of “hate” and silly-silly conspiracy theories.
LikeLike
“””Perhaps you believe theories that are critical of US foreign policy are merely anti-American or the product of “hate” and silly-silly conspiracy theories.”
Lets get this straight, I am the main commenter on this blog who takes weak , half truths, misinformed , biased reports from links , and calls out those links as anti american
There is a good reason, living in a country that has groups of people who are Marxist and run this anti American crap up the wazoo, the lies, the half truths, the hypocracy, I can smell an anti American turd dropped a mile away
This kind of beefing about being called out for bringing in anti American links, is tired, its basicly a smoke signal to hide the absolute weak , hypocritical, biased half truths and lies being brought in …or a naiveness to just beleive anything that could look like a criticism of American policy with absolutly no referance to what else was happening at the same time from the opisition in any respective perioud in history the usa keeps getting nailed to the wall about…
this just makes me even more determned to point out the flaws and hypocracies in the weak links brought in
this blogs dissects American entrails on a daily basis, and lets absolutly do that, dissect white racism …but, when people with their agendas try to aply what is happening with white racism in America to American foreign policy, with no acknowledgement of the absolute horrors happening from the people we oposed , and no real perspective, then go suk on a lemon…if we cant tell the whole truth…things like America only makes war on poc, are blatent false statements,
if what is happening out here with American foreign policy is going to be butchered so much the real truth is totaly lost, I disrespect those hypocracies and lies and support Obama’s drone bombing campain…same with their help to Colombia to bomb the Farc
save that guilt tripping crap for some weak minded individual who isnt willing to do the real research
“”
LikeLike
BR, I don’t think anyone has any doubt about where you stand.
You sound aggressive.
Do you want to fight someone? Would you like to intimidate anyone?
Or would prefer to insult them until they shut up?
Are you hoping “your colleagues” will come out and beat my commentary into an online pulp for not praising your government’s policies and actions?
Is that what you want to see, BR?
How come, if there is any word of dissent, then out comes the TOILET and the bowel-openings … ?
And don’t forget to wave around the soiled toilet brush, too.. that’s how you have a discussion, I suppose. I can’t say I mind the governments of European countries being discussed. In fact, it’s a good thing. That’s why I, and others, mentioned that Hitler was a Christian. Very, very telling.
***
I don’t agree with V4 on subjects, but respect V4’s straightforwardness.
He didn’t say he knew something afterward that he didn’t know about when it was first mentioned.
V4’s mind was blown because he (she?) can’t get round the fact the Nazis and Hitler were Christian. I doubt if that is unusual because most people that I’ve known didn’t associate Christianity with Nazism either.
Do YOU have a theory on why that came to be?
It’s not taught. It’s not shown. It’s not emphasized. It’s not discussed.
Know why?
LikeLike
You’re always telling people they are weak-minded if they don’t agree with you, that you are there to point out flaws and are so happy you have a hard-care non-University education because you research things for yourself and we should all follow you because you are on the frontline of truth.
Thus your insight into why so many people (outside of Germany, Austria, etc.) don’t know about the Christianity of Hitler would be good to know.
LikeLike
@ V-4
It should not be.
In Europe, Christians have a long history of anti-Semiticism: not just the Holocaust, but ghettos, pogroms, Crusades and the Inquisition. This stuff did not come out of nowhere.
In the Americas, Christians have an ugly history of genocide and slavery. The English Pilgrims and Spanish conquistadors were violently racist – and Christian zealots.
People who think God is on their side do all kinds of hideous things. It is not just Muslim jihadists who act like that.
LikeLike
The Roman Catholic house of Christianity is particularly bloody. Not that abuses do not also fall outside of their sect and tradition. But the RCs either began or were participants in almost every single war in Abagond’s list above.
LikeLike
The kkk say they are Christians too.
LikeLike
Those Westboro Church clowns profess Christianity. They certainly are the polar opposite of Christianity. They are a perfect exampe of fundamaentalist extremist. They like Nazis, the KKK, are icons of hatred and bigotry. But profess to be Christians. (Rolls Eyes).
LikeLike
^^^^ Fundamentalist^^^^^ typo.
LikeLike
Christianity has always been the “motivator” behind a lot of history’s darkest events, including the oppression of Africans and African Americans and the slaughter of Native Americans. One could say that God in the mindset of the white man was the devil himself.
LikeLike
Bulanik, all I can tell you about that subject of Hitler is , I never doubted he was Christian , or existing side by side if he wasnt practicing himself , and I dont know how people wouldnt, and I never doubted fundamentalist Christianity is as violent as fundimentalist Islam , and my dislike for both as well as fundimental Judism is a strong emotion in me
You can seperate my impaitence with weak links brought in about what is wrong with America foreign policy from the everyday dissection of what is wrong with America on this blog, especialy racist America, and , Bulanik, certainly you know you have made many many comments about what is wrong with America that I have never disagreed with , and , in fact are good comments…especialy in reguards to white racist America
As I have implied, I live in a country that has groups of politicly motivated people , who lead with Marxism, and have created a powerful brainwashing echo , about how evil America is and how the cia has infiltrated everything and how America is going to invade the Amazon , and their absolute red washing of their experiances in the cold war filled with hypocracies, half truths and outright lies….this is something that comes across almost daily in one form or another.
While daily interactions with Brazilians is not frought with these confrontations , there have been disgustingly humiliating experiances exactly because Im American, but , its the din of various docus made by the Marxists themselves, the occaisional opinion peace in a newspaper , or slant by a tv jornalist, watching the horribly slanted view my son got going through the educational system, he got worse than I did , a number if microaggresions and exclusions , all add up to hearing most all of the cold war accuasations and lies, and the hyper ability to see through the anti American bs…as well as see through the Fox news America is always right and good versions…I dont deny America is dirty, but , I will stand up to fairy tales , and have discovered all sides were dirty
I am not coming in here oposing any criticism against America, I have supported criticisms of America and criticised America in here , too…my views dont go with the white viewers arguing against Abagonds points about racism in America….where I have argued about is anti interracial relationship drek , with equal impaitence as I argue against weak links that are anti American foreign policy…and I have gotten into heated disagreements about booty dancing and sex
According to Abagond , a third of the commentors are not American, and , I just dont get there is some general feeling that they arnt qualified to criticise America…this is not a regular argument on here, that criticisms of America are anti American , and , I , have tried to make it clear Im ridiculing links I see brought in that are anti American….and, I am the main person that makes the point that some links about American foreign policy are anti American and ridiculous , and have no problem stepping up to claim that when someone is implying those sentiments exist on here , to defend my position
But, as a general rule , American faults are disscussed here daily with no anti American accuasations….and the many comments you have made about things that are wrong with America, are welcome, but , I have no problem pointing out which links I think are anti American…certainly , Assange is an assumed anti American
LikeLike
By the way , I might add, I never originaly came to this blog to get intonAmerican foreign policy debates , it was to disscuss white racism..I have other blogs that I can vent full force and say what id really like to say with no restrictions on curse words, that are much more fullfilling for me about discussion on American foreign policy
And , my son has way more guts than I do, standing up in class at 12 or 13 , in front of everyone , arguing with some teachers bogus take on America…
Anything I say on here is just carry over from some heated debates Im having on other blogs about these issues…it gives me no pleasure to get entangled over here in these debates, especialy when I can really express myself to the fullest gutural range about it , elsewhere…and I end up at odds with people over here I generaly agree with
LikeLike
@ BR
I never noticed that you criticize your nation or government.
And if you have never noticed that a few American commenters have regularly, in the past — TRIED to shut down or undermine, non-Americans who don’t praise the US, then we might not be reading the same blog.
There are subtle ways that particular nasty defensiveness is shown, and there are overt and unpleasant ways that’s shown. You haven’t noticed. And you may not have had the off-line conversations with the non-Americans who used to visit this blog and no longer do.
Is Abagond’s blog, and whole point, to criticise his nation and nationality? Is that what the threads are about? Really?
You have me amazed.
Abagond writes about a HUGE array of topics. His slant and tone isn’t “being critical”, only and solely.
Yet, to YOU, it’s all about “daily” discussion of American faults. What rubbish.
The US and its myriad aspects, histories are under discussion. It is also a Superpower. This is extremely important. Not to be taken lightly, not to be skipped over.
What do you expect?
I am not surprised then, that you see animosity where there is noneou doing a service here by being on the defensive about issues that actually require reflection and thought more than loud aggression and finger pointing to “other sides”. Why is it that I, or someone else, has to tell you to be rational, or fair minded before you are prepared to be so?
Horrible. I see what you mean..
So the aggression you show here, to various commenters, is a carry over from elsewhere. I think that’s generally true of off-line/on-line life anyway, but you’ve been doing this thing for a number of years now — where’s the control?
Where’s the discretion?
Do you take the aggression you show here and throw on the people in your real life? I really doubt it.
Is anyone the same, in every situation, in every part of life, in life?
I doubt it. That doesn’t work in life off-line, so is it working here, too?
Thinking about it, sometimes I have to interact with people that treat me like a sub-human for various reasons, or are so jealous, and angered by something about my X, my Y and my Z — they practically spit saliva in my face when they have to speak to me, etc., etc., etc.. I don’t want to go into the ghastly details. Still, when I have to speak with another individual, it’s not necessarily so. It’s a different conversation. There’s a separation. Must be.
If something gives you no pleasure — then why do you do it?
Why tell me about “turds” and stuff when we have discussion? Is it necessary?
Or are you just saying that it gives you no pleasure, when it in fact, does?
If you can really let loose on the bowel-talk somewhere else and flush it out of your system there, why not keep it there? That’s just a question of being “flexible”. Why not be good to yourself, instead…
LikeLike
Kudos, to him. It DOES take guts to take on teachers like that.
Your son was probably around other children with guts who had to struggle and stand up for themselves in ways he didn’t have to. No doubt he realises that? I emigrated to Europe, alone, when I far younger than 12 or 13, and dealt with not only teachers putting down my nationality, accent, race and colour, but other children and adults, too. It went on for years and years.
But I was hardly the only one.
I can think of many children in the same boat (and worse, far worse).
Some of them didn’t survive it, and were defeated too young, even the ones that fought and screamed.
But, some of them were able to survive and stick up for themselves without being aggressive and potty-mouthed.
A lot of children, and adults, have courage and guts, BR, and some of them are quiet — not weak — just quiet. There’s a difference.
As for me, being a PWS (person who stammers), and people like me, there was also extra work involved in the mere trying.
But there’s nothing “special” or “heroic” in that.
Everyone has something.
*
You agree with my comments about white racist America?
I didn’t know that. When I consider what you say to me, and how you say it, it takes me aback.
The racism of the US (notice I rarely call it “America”?) is not something I’d claim to know about. You’re mistaken if only think I’m talking about the US.
I’m not. I am talking from a perspective outside of Europe — if I don’t specifically mention the US. I didn’t get what I know from books, or things written by American nationals.
(And nor do I think what I say is particularly “good” as commentary.
I am self-critical and shy away from writing guest posts for this reason.
There are things going in my life, and this blog helps me with them in its own way.)
LikeLike
[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/ […]
LikeLike
Bulanik, aggresion ? How about defensiveness…to assume Im the resident blog prick is absurd…the kind of insults , false accuasations , put downs and outright lies directed at me on this blog deserve everything I learned about being defensive…really interesting hearing this line of thinking from you , reffering to since years back when you tried to orchestrate on this blog that I was a stalker …or , after hearing some of the most absurd things on this blog about anti interracial couples , and bi racial children…well you are gosh darn real Im on the defensive…ive seen more crap about that on here than real life…
I wont even go into differances in sex and booty dance…and the insults that flew my way…
But , how can you miss that discussing American white racism on here and its a daily experiance ,is dissecting America, ?and I have spoken out against white racism quite blatently , and , have no problem dissecting it ….
So , just because some other white Americans opose those opinions , doesnt mean they are arguing foreigners cant make those points….that is not a regular defence that comes up on here…only sometimes it will come up
But I quite frankly will tell any one foreign or American , that railroading American foreign policy into some big boogey man, which has absolutly been done on here , and by you , is not the same as addressing white racism in America….the world is way too dirty to make America the evil one sided player who is at fault , and the foreign policy discusions do that au nausea…with very little referance to the whole story , the whole circumstances , who all the players are and all the complexities involved. …..its one sided , half truths and lies and distortions …ridiculous distortions
And some comments are gross and and obscene ,and come from the toilet and ought to be flushed right down the toilet along with anti interacial crap…and it needs to be called out for exactly what it is …bs….diarréia of the mouth…word vomit…a turd
These gross comments dont deserve politeness , I dont bring in any anger from other blogs, Im just prepared to stand up to the bs, exactly from seeing it in steroid form in real life and blogs….and its more intence and guttoral, and I prefer that honesty than here where your comments are moderaded and eliminated if epiphets that are actualy aprpriate in some of these cases are used
.most Americans arnt prepared to argue against these lies, they are either with an agenda like Chomsky , or have read him and buy him hook line and sinker ,or Fox news ignorant chumps who dont know their countries real history , or caught like deer in the headlights and dont know how to stand up to the half truths or lies
Any discusion that involves American cold war policy that doesnt include the multi millions eliminated by Marxist flawed ideology , which is why those fighting against it fought so dirty , is a half truth or lie with an agenda or naive, a d American cold war policy is brought up here regularly
By the way , when I lived in new york 78-86, you bet everyday was dealing with rudeness , so this is reality I have come to know , and actualy respect the honesty
And railroading capitalism , like its the worst thing on the planet without going into differances , like hyper predatory capitalism or capitalism with a concience and social programs , and not mention the blatent disgusting aspects f Marxism and what it has done to people , or compared to life under Sharia law ,or just the facts that America offers upward mobility to millions of people of all ethnic backgrounds , compared to where they came from , or compared to lives that would be similar in other countries like being black in America compared to Brazil , and how there is more upward mobility in Ametica, is just not looking at the whole truth…..
Yeah , lets pile on white racism , but dont play that with America in a dirty world, at least Im not piling on….I know too much dirt out here , and too many lies about the USA…and I wont let it pass…same with anti interracial crud…it just get passed me
LikeLike
@ BR
Now I understand you.
I understand your emotionalism now, and why you want me to be The Enemy.
Okay, got it.
LikeLike
While I generally agree with your point, I’m not sure your murder rate statistics serve you well:
Murder rate:
3.0 Iran
3.3 Turkey
3.4 WHITE AMERICA
4.1 Palestine
4.2 Yemen
Notice a pattern in your top five? But this isn’t accurate.
According to Wikipedia, America is not the third most violent country but the 109th
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate#By_country
But, if you look at the link, you’ll notice that there isn’t a single Muslim-majority country even near the top of the list. THAT statistic would have served you better.
But, what’s worse is the “white” addition you made to the statistic.
You do understand that Americans and American murderers come in all colors? America is certainly not an all-white country! Not even close.
If you want to inject race into this debate, then show murder rates by race.
LikeLike
@ Ron Luce
Crime in the US, like many ills of American society, is racialized as a Black thing. Many think that outside of some violent ghettos, the US is a peaceful, law-abiding country, birds chirping, apple pies baking. Not so! The overall murder rate would have made the US look worse, but it would have been quickly blamed on Blacks and not taken seriously.
LikeLike
in nigeria christians are horribly the most violent but covered by christian dominated press. eg a christian general led the brutal killing of more twenty muslims in zangon kataf kaduna .when he was tried and convicted the christians worlwide insisted that he must be released. more brutal killing of muslims was then carried out in plateau where more than fifty thousand muslims were killed and no single christian was tried. president even glorified the governor of plateau state jona jang who led the killings by supporting him as chairman governor’s forum even though he was not elected. the christian association of liars and deceivers sponsoring the misguided boko haram rascals now carrying out more brutal killing of muslims to reduce muslim population in nigeria for wicked and the most corrupt gej to be reelected . they sponsored maitatsine from vatican before. thus it is stupidity to tell us that christianity teachs peace and love.
LikeLike
Islam is defined by its violence and depravity…
http://news.msn.com/world/us-officials-video-shows-americans-execution
LikeLike
ahahah: Syria 2.3, hahah do you really beleave this, all the decapitaded bodies are count by syrian goverment?. i dont think so, in syria there are at least 100 deads EVERYDAY.
LikeLike
@ HLO{EZJ
I wrote this a year ago and homicide figures from other countries generally run two to four years behind.
LikeLike
Religion, like capitalism, is divisive. Claims that either represents a “good” system just don’t stand up to scrutiny.
Religion is competitive. Of necessity, a member of any given proselytising religion will point to competing religions being “worse”.
Earlier in this thread, an anonymous Muslim contributor said:
Well said.
Why the hell do we develop these systems of inequality and control?
Kropotkin – the godfather of Anarchist communism – insisted that the overwhelming tendency in both animals and humans was cooperation and mutual aid. Even under oppressive religious and economic/political regimes there is an underground of resistance that values people above wealth and/or dogma.
To me, claims that any religion is comparatively better or worse is kind of analogous to oncologists getting competitive about whose specialist disease is most destructive.
No gods, no masters.
LikeLike
Nigerian war was not a religion war and also cause by Christian from the South part of the country where dominated by Christians. 1967 civilian war of Nigeria cause by Igbo tribes which majority of Igbo are Christians and they aim was to divided Nigerian and get they own country name Biafra. in that war both Muslims and Christians fight against this idea of they own of divide the country.
LikeLike
Lets see there are muslims living in America so i shall count America as a muslim nation and include every one that the American government kills to Islam. This is about the same as counting everything that America does to Christianity DUMB STATEMENTS you make!
LikeLike
YOUR posts are truly idiotic OF course you did NOT include ISLAM in the WW liar! I know you did NOT forgot that the ISLAMIC joined with HITLER in the war and when YOU BOTH LOST the great nation of ISRAEL was REBORN! Muslims are such liars!
LikeLike
YOUR whole blog is hog wash and NO one BUT the violent and communist believes it but laughs!
LikeLike
@ Nancy
People talk about “Muslim terrorism” and “Black crime”. This post flips that argument onto Christians to show how idiotic that kind of thinking is.
LikeLike
Please read about Constantine, Christian missionaries wartactic, Christian Magic, Christian atheism and Gnosis.
LikeLike
I laughed pretty hard when I read this piece of excrement. I have never witnessed so much misinformation in my life. It seems the author purposely omitted certain information and took other matters out of context in order to paint some false portrayal of Christianity and lend credibility to the “religion of peace.” There is no sound argument against the FACT that Islam is inherently violent. Set aside all your preconceived notions and preconditioned responses, and examine the behavior and teachings of Mohammed himself. Now, do the same for Jesus. There is no comparison, regardless of your personal religious beliefs. Anyone who states otherwise is either in denial, or too unintelligent to grasp reality. Even atheists will agree Jesus taught peace while Mohammed was incredibly militaristic.
Just because an individual claims to be a Christian prior to carrying out some horrible act does not mean he actually follows the religion. On the other hand, numerous examples exists regarding Mohammed committing atrocities and condoning such behavior in the name of Allah.
There is no argument here, unless you want to employ fallacious logic.
LikeLike
@ Sorry
Did you read the whole post?
LikeLike
I guess until a religious country drops a Nuclear B*mb. wait one did! It killed a lot of people men, women, children, babies and poison a lot of people (I think we even got some Godzilla movies out of it). Not to mention defects that are happening in another country for spraying some type of let me see called Agent Orange or something during its military campaign there. Still Ghandi did see he liked Christ teachings but pretty much hated the people who thought they were following Christ ways.
I am a Christian but hey you’ve got to know head count wise we win. We aren’t even talking bout when the old Popes were trying to hammer out their power and killed off those branches they saw as a threat. Maybe one of those times I sympathize with the French. Still both religions do have a lot red on their hands.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
I think it is fair to say someone does not read the bible very well. It is odd how they omit parts of it and goes on to scream about “Jesus’s teachings.”
LikeLike
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one…. Satan the devil
LikeLike
[…] totals up the death tolls from Christian wars versus Muslim wars, Christianity surpasses Islam by a wide margin. By the logic used by Islamophobes to validate their racist and xenophobic opinions, they would […]
LikeLike
Hitler was not any practicing Christian . He was insane .
In fact -he and his top aide ,Himmler , sought the occult and fortune tellers for war answers . They resented religion and competed with it .
Hitler was not reading the Bible at night . In fact , he felt threatened by religion and peddled the “winter solictice ” in Germany to complete with religious celebrations . He moved santa from saint ( in white ) to commercial ( red ) .
Many Christians died by Hitler and trying to fight Hitler ….more christians died than jews. Just as muslims are being slaughtered with Christians by ISIS.
Wars are about Good vs Evil .
Tribes of construction are always fighting tribes of destruction.
There will always be battles -religion or not .
Its evolution . May the best man win !
The native americans warred with each other for land /power before ANY white man ever settled North America.
Same with African tribes /Asian tribes -plenty of death and beheadings in and between many violent tribes.
Warriors come in all colors and have effected all nations .
If the above list of “terrible christians ” , abagond, is to deflect from our current warrior tribe of the day , Islamic terrorists, then you are on the side of destruction.
Because TODAY and for the last 50 years the middle east is the problem as far as maintaining a violent stance. “Behead the infidels “-they are right out of the Nazi handbook !
LikeLike
@ Lou Tillman
Just as you and others say that Hitler was not a true Christians, so too tons of Muslims say that ISIS are not true Muslims.
The post is not about just war but about Islamophobia (and, more subtly, Black crime statistics). It applies Islamophobic reasoning to Christians to show how screwed up it is.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
There is one very important difference. The Islamists see themself as muslims, the Nazis didn’t see themself as christians. Hitler was not just no “real christian”, he was no christian at all (from the Catholic Church’s point of view he was still a catholic, because babtized in his childhood). Obviously nearly all Nazis grew up as christians and were babtized, but it was clear from the beginning that National Socialism was at odds with Christianity and the Nazis actively fought the Churches. What belief system the Nazis had is a bit difficult to say, because they waren’t atheists either. Hitler himself was obsessed with “destiny” (Vorsehung), that had elected him as the leader. The Nazis created a new religious denomination, you could put down in official documents: “gottgläubig” (believing in god). That was considered the politically correct thing to be in Nazi Germany and helped greatly in your career, while being a christian was a problem (catholic more so than protestant)
The much better comparison to the Islamists are the Franco regime in Spain and the Dollfuß/Schuschnigg regime in Austria, because they were actively supported by the Catholic Church in their crimes.
LikeLike
@ Kartoffel
I disagree. Hitler’s questionable Christianity makes him a BETTER fit for the likes of ISIS and Al Qaeda.
LikeLike
@ Kartoffel
Part of what is wrong with Islamophobia is that it sees all Muslims as the same. That is the nature of prejudiced thinking – outgroup homogeneity. So all these fine distinctions that people here are making about ingroup Hitler are rarely made about outgroup ISIS.
LikeLike
@ Lou Tillman
Re: war as good against evil.
I went to school in the US North. I noticed that it always fought on the right side in every single war! Amazing! But even at that tender age I suspected it was because the winners get to write the history books.
LikeLike
I don’t think that makes sense at all. Stalin was a christian in the same way, but it’s obviosly ridiculous to account his atrocities to Christianity. What you have to look at is if the ideology is based on the religion, not if the person is in some way affiliated with the religion. And that is definitly not the case with Communism and National Socialism, but it is with Islamism. An example from the Islamic World for the former are the Kurds in the PKK. They are Muslims and they are violent, but their ideology has nothing to do with Islam.
LikeLike
august west – your facts and numbers are completely wrong. your work is in error and is considered fiction. it is laughable. i have seen the real numbers and as the quran teaches islamist have killed 10 times more people through history then any other cult. As for white people, have always found them to be the nicest. middle east people have not come out of the stone age yet and are mostly neanderthals … if you criticize them, say telling a muslim you should take a shower every day and use head and shoulders so you do not have dandruf all over your clothes, a muslim or middle eastern man would consider this remark cause to have your head cut off. if said to a white man they would all say we will take that under consideration …
LikeLike
” As for white people, have always found them to be the nicest. middle east people have not come out of the stone age yet and are mostly neanderthals … if you criticize them, say telling a muslim you should take a shower every day and use head and shoulders so you do not have dandruf all over your clothes, a muslim or middle eastern man would consider this remark cause to have your head cut off. if said to a white man they would all say we will take that under consideration …”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ROTFLMAO
This blog desperately needed some comic relief. I appreciate you for providing it. White people (as a collective) ARE – VERY considerate… LOL …yeah, probably the most considerate people in the Universe!
{{smh}}
LikeLike
You seem to have neglected any wars in the Muslim conquest, the Arab Slave Trade (roughly seen to be twice the atlantic slave trade but you’re a race baiter so no shock you ignore this), the fact that the Crusades were done in response to Muslim belligerence, and claimed any act by a Christian government done in the name of Christianity, which is silly.
You really do have a chip on your shoulder
LikeLike
@ Dan
You are missing the point. Did you read the whole post?
LikeLike
Wow, this is so full of lies and completely fabricated statistics, I don’t think there’s much point in countering your article, but I’ll give it a try:
I’m NOT Christian, I’m Atheist, but I know Christianity as I know a lot of other religions, including Islam. I read quite a bit of the Bible, the Quran and the Hadiths, among others.
Parts of the Bible are over 4’000 years old. It’s been written by many different people over long periods of time. There is no unity of thought. Most of the evil things are descriptive, historic accounts of what some people did in the past, e.g. where Moses sacks a city, has all the men killed and all the women enslaved. There is no indication that this is supposed to be a good thing and much less any suggestion that it should be imitated.
The evil laws from the Bronze age are rejected by Jesus, when he says “who has no sin throw the first stone”. So there is absolutely NO support for doing evil in the Bible for anyone who claims to be Christian.
In fact, the abolitionists based their opposition to slavery on the Bible. Hence no one practicing slavery could be considered “Christian”.
The Quran, on the other hand, appears to be the product of a single, sick mind. Mohammed was clearly a psychopath, sex obsessed, pedophile and extremely violent. He committed theft, armed robbery, ordered assassinations, justified lying to promote Islam, supported and practiced slavery and sexual exploitation, practiced torture, prosecuted those who tried to leave Islam, hated Jews and all non-Muslims, made war and ordered all of his followers to do likewise.
Mohammed is supposed to be “the best man ever” and anything he did can be imitated by all Muslims, so all of the above horrors are repeated over and over, as we see from ISIS right now. Prosecution of Jews, of Christians, of other non-Muslims, of Muslim “heretics”, it’s all an integral part of Islam.
NOTHING like it exists in the Bible. Crimes, wars, the Inquisition etc. were NOT based on the Bible. Interestingly, Reformation appeared when the average Christian could read the Bible. That’s also when Christians started opposing things like slavery. Reading the Bible makes Christians LESS violent.
Reading the Quran makes Muslims MORE violent.
In your list, you forgot to mention the massacre of over 80 MILLION Hindus, while Muslims tried to convert them to Islam. I also don’t see the 2 million deaths during the separation of Pakistan and India, which was ONLY based on Islam.
I don’t see the mass-murder of the Armenians or the Greeks by Muslim Turks, which was done based on Islam against non-Muslims.
Muslims took over 70 MILLION black slaves from Sub-Saharan Africa and over 1 million from Southern Europe.
That’s 5x more than the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Which started when Europeans discovered MUSLIM slave markets on the coasts of Africa. Europeans didn’t hunt and capture black slaves, they bought them FROM MUSLIMS!
That’s documented by a writer from Ghana, who is revolted by those facts, although he himself is a Muslim.
Mohammed, like most Arabs, hated and despised blacks and the Arab term for “slave” means “black man”:
http://www.modernghana.com/news/249409/1/arabs-mortal-hatred-and-enslavement-of-the-black-r.html
Muslims CONTINUE to enslave people!
They also launched 800 BATTLES against Europe – and that says nothing about their war on Persia – the most advanced civilization, before they were attacked by Muslims and had Islam forced on them – India, Indonesia, Thailand, China, Russia etc.
Every single country that currently has a strong Muslim population (30%+) has been invaded by Muslims, generally attacked militarily.
As for the violence, it is FAR, FAR worse in Muslim countries than what you claim. Most crimes are simply not reported or entered into any statistics.
LikeLike
This article is too easy to pick apart… The wars listed here as so called “Christian wars” is disingenuous as most of them were not wars fought over religion. WW1 & WW2 were not religious wars, they included belligerents from all religions. The fact you include those global conflicts as religious Christian wars shows your bias against Christians. Furthermore crime is and will always be more abundant in a FREE society where people aren’t living under the oppressive thumb of wealthy dictators who will take your hands for theft. I could go on but I’ve got better things to do.
LikeLike
prolibertatesemper
It seems like you are giving a history lesson instead of taking apart what was said in the post. None of which really disputes what he said at all.
Also from sources I found Abd is the word referring to slave regardless of race. I have yet to find it specifically meaning black man. Of course those that don’t know any better will automatically apply it to blacks.
I also don’t think the point is whether it was a ear in the name of God etc. But whether the individuals who waged the war was Christian or Muslim. Christians can’t claim high road based on what the Bible teaches as often times they will wenter against it and thus the list of wars.
LikeLike
Rob
For something so easy to pick apart it is a shame that you failed to do so.
LikeLike
You are WRONG: Abd DOES mean slave, but it ALSO means “black man”. In other words, slave and black man are SYNONYMOUS, in Arabic.
You can look this up in any Arab dictionary, so the denial is pretty pathetic.
The hatred of blacks by Arabs is extremely well documented, as we’ve also seen over the last few years in Northern Africa, especially in Libya.
Given the 70 MILLION black slaves Arabs have taken over time, there should in theory be millions of blacks in Arab Muslim countries, but there are only very few, if any. Contrary the Americas, where blacks now represent a significant part of the population, from 14% in the US to about 50% in Brazil and the Carribeans.
That is because Muslims castrated all black male slaves and didn’t allow black women to reproduce (killed their babies), which is equivalent to a genocide of epic proportions.
So the treatment of slaves by Muslims was infinitely worse than their treatment by white people.
LikeLike
@Ron Luce that is COMPLETELY WRONG!
The US homicide rates concern, to 80%, BLACK PEOPLE, both, as perpetrators and as victims!
Those 80% are almost entirely crimes committed in GANG LAND, about 3% of the US territory.
If you remove those regions and the populations which are violent-prone from the statistics, the US have LOWER crime rates than most of Europe.
WHITE people have a homicide rate of about 1 to 1.5, i.e. among the best in the world.
Black against white crime is about 10x higher than white against black crime.
Around 50% of all rapes against white women are committed by blacks (14% of the population), but only 1% of all rapes of black women are committed by white men.
It’s all available at fbi.gov, under “Uniform Crime Statistics”.
You might want to update your views of US crime, given the more than 80% drop in violent crime between 1990 and 2008, following the gradual introduction of shall-issue CONCEAL CARRY LICENCES.
This was AGAIN confirmed when Chicago and Detroit finally allowed concealed carry as well. Their homicide rates immediately fell sharply.
The police chief of Detroit – a black man – confirmed this recently. He said that the reduction in crime could largely be attributed to “armed, private citizens”. Look it up, his comments were published recently.
Anyway, your claim that WHITE AMERICA has a homicide rate of 3.4 is BULLSHIT.
LikeLike
@ prolibertatesemper
You need to check out the FBI website for yourself. Your numbers are delusional.
LikeLike
Where is the number of 70 million black slaves in the Middle East from? As far as I recall there were around 4 million slaves traded in the trans-saharan trade and 6 million in the trans-Indian Ocean trade.
LikeLike
prolibertatesemper
“You are WRONG: Abd DOES mean slave, but it ALSO means “black man”. In other words, slave and black man are SYNONYMOUS, in Arabic.
You can look this up in any Arab dictionary, so the denial is pretty pathetic.”—I did look it up plus was happy to speak with someone who speaks the language and was able to clearly clarify it, so calling your bluff was pretty simple. Besides that if you had a source that supported your claim you would have provided which you did not. So again people that do not know any better would use Abd to mean slave. There is actual another word that refers to black if I am clear on my understanding of what I read.
“The hatred of blacks by Arabs is extremely well documented, as we’ve also seen over the last few years in Northern Africa, especially in Libya.”—I never denied the hatred of blacks by Arabs so the additional information is not really necessary. Feels like a clear deflection from your lack of information.
LikeLike
@abagond, no, my numbers are correct, YOUR numbers are completely wrong!
Everyone can check them for themselves, so I’m not going to debate you on this. There’s no point in debating easily verified FACTS!
The fall in crime rates was so massive that even NYT had to admit it, though they called it “inexplicable”, because it didn’t fit in with any of their favorite pseudo-explanations, it ONLY fit the development of gun rights, which, to them, was unacceptable.
As for the black vs. white crime rates, I simply point you to the FBI data.
If you persist, then prove your point.
I know what you’ll find if you look, which is why you will never post actual links to the FBI data. And I have better things to do than to debate people who are in denial of reality.
LikeLike
Actually as of 2012 the homicide rate was 4.7, but whose counting.
LikeLike
“1% of all rapes of black women are committed by white men.”—And this only accounts for reported. Black women are least likely to report rapes from some stats I read.
That is all.
LikeLike
Correction would use Abd to mean black man. *
LikeLike
You’re in TOTAL DENIAL, aren’t you?
““1% of all rapes of black women are committed by white men.”—And this only accounts for reported. Black women are least likely to report rapes from some stats I read.”
THAT DOESN’T MATTER !!!
Even assuming that 90% of all rapes of black women were NOT reported, that would still not change a thing about the 1% for white men, because the PROPORTIONS would stay the same!
There’s no reason to assume that black women would report rape by white men less often than rape by black men – quite the contrary, actually!
If they were raped by a white man, they could expect immediate media coverage. They could become instantly famous and be defended by all the race baiters like Sharpton.
Remember that black woman in the Duke Lacross players?
She WRONGLY ACCUSED 4 young, white men from good families of having raped her. The police believed her, although one of the accused had a ROCK SOLID ALIBY. He had been filmed by an ATM camera at the exact time of the alleged rape at the other end of town!
Everyone believed her, because everyone “knows” that white men rape black women… NOT !
The official statistic says the exact opposite – it’s exceedingly RARE, which is why it received so much coverage when there was such a case.
Your claim that a 1% reported rape of black women by white men has to be COMPLETELY wrong shows that you are a total racist: even if the number was underestimated by a factor of 10 – which would be EXTREME – it would still mean that rape against black women by white men is exceedingly rare!
LikeLike
prolibertatesemper
“You’re in TOTAL DENIAL, aren’t you?”—No honey, You’re in denial which is why you are writing a whole paragraph about your denial. You can’t face the facts and I understand. You believe that whites are so good and stats supports that when reality is stats do not tell a full picture of what is true. Stats are skewed in a number of ways. One being that stats do not report for every precinct. Two they only show what is reported/arrest.
“THAT DOESN’T MATTER !!!”–It matters a great deal because if you are quoting your statistics to make a claim that only 1% of black females are raped by white men then it stands to reason to quote a study that shows they are least likely to report. If they are not willing to report then those said starts are skewed. They are not accurate and thus you are quoting falsehood. Your caps tells me it bothers you. It seems to do that to people just hearing the truth.
“Even assuming that 90% of all rapes of black women were NOT reported, that would still not change a thing about the 1% for white men, because the PROPORTIONS would stay the same!”—Did you fail math?
“There’s no reason to assume that black women would report rape by white men less often than rape by black men – quite the contrary, actually!”—-I never said they would I simply stated they are least likely to report which says an awful lot about not only your reading comprehension but your lack of knowledge of facts.
“The official statistic says the exact opposite – it’s exceedingly RARE, which is why it received so much coverage when there was such a case.”—-It was rare because it made the news. It was rare because she spoke up, but White man raping black women is far from rare. I mean it has been happening for so long it is hard to just erase.”official” stats only show reported/arrested. Meaning if a man paid someone off for his rape then it is highly likely that he would not be on those stats. If he put fear into the person he raped then it is likely he would not be on those stats. A white cop was arrested a little while ago for raping 4 black women that he stopped. As him being a cop he may get off, but doesn’t change that he raped 4 black women.
“Your claim that a 1% reported rape of black women by white men has to be COMPLETELY wrong shows that you are a total racist: even if the number was underestimated by a factor of 10 – which would be EXTREME – it would still mean that rape against black women by white men is exceedingly rare!”—Can you read? That was not my claim. My claim was that black women rarely report. If they rarely report then what you quote does not hold much accuracy to make that true. Half truths are not truths. You my dear are simply projecting your own harbored racism onto me.
You may want to do better research next time. Particularly on stats, different languages, and Atheism. All f which you claim to be acquainted with but really have no clue of. You might also want to see someone about your anger issues. I know the truth hurts, but what good to yelling at a computer screen do?
If you need sources I can post them all. Even for the Abd you keep claiming to mean one things and it actually mean another.
LikeLike
I see now that this post is far too nuanced for raving Islamophobes.
LikeLike
@Abagond
I think many of your post are gateways for racist. People who likely see themselves as not will eventually expose themselves. Arab racism seems to be more hia racism.
LikeLike
@ prolibertatesemper
Unlike you, I gave links to back up my numbers. Rave on.
LikeLike
of course attributing 41.5 million deaths in ww2 to Christians is beyond the pale considering Hitler was an athiest
LikeLike
where is ottoman war against non believers that started in 13 century untill they were defeated in 19th century ,where is the mention of 500 yrs of inslaving the eastern europian nations and milions who were killed by the ottomans,where is the mention of 400 yrs of muslim invasion of christian countries like syria,egypt,lebanon and so on,where is the mention of 1400 yrs of african and europian slave trade by the muslims in which milons have died ,where is the mention of muslims castrating their black slaves ,where is the menttion of 80000000 hindus who were killed in 500 yrs by muslims,where is the mention of rivers of blood muslims left behind in persia which Al-Baladhuri and al tabari bragg about if we trully want to be intelectually honest this article is BS,,,,
LikeLike
@ zilex
I deleted two long comments of yours as spam because it is not even clear if you read the post. For example, you say:
Yet the posts states that the Ottoman Turks killed 3.9 million between 1110 to 1918.
What I have so far:
Millions of deaths caused by Muslims:
Muslim wars:
1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 7.0m
1681-1707: Conquests of Aurangzeb: 5.0m
1967-1970: Nigerian Civil War: 1.0m
1980-1988: Iran-Iraq War: 1.0m
1983-2005: Second Sudanese Civil War: 1.0m
1989-2001: Afghan Civil War: 1.4m
Muslim democides:
400-1900: Iran: 2.0m
1110-1918: Ottoman Empire: 3.9m
1958-1987: Pakistan: 1.5m
1983-2005: Sudan: 1.9m Nuer, Dinka, Christians, Nuba, etc
If you have anything to add to that where AT LEAST ONE MILLION people died, then let me know, with specifics and a source, like those in the post. “Rivers of blood” is vague. So is “by Muslims”.
So far all you gave me was “the menttion of 80000000 hindus who were killed in 500 yrs by muslims”. Can you give me dates, the countries or leaders responsible. Can you back that up?
LikeLike
I think they, the Christians, are prolibertatesemper. Discuss!
LikeLike
Using an extremists group such as the Taliban to say Muslims are more violent than Christians is about the same as using Hitler to say Christians are more violent than the Muslims.
LikeLike
@George
Christian extremist do plenty, but the idea that they are Christian will paint them as “bad” individuals rather than as Christians. As much as you like saying “not all muslims” the reality is that when Muslin extremist do something all muslims get looked at as violent. People, including you, have and will pull out there religion as the cause. Then turn around and claim ” not all”.
LikeLike
George Ryder
Christian extremist are the ones bombing abortion clinics, but I think this link better puts in words the Christian extremist.
http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men
I have more if that is not enough but their acts are something I have a feeling you will take lightly.
I personally think they are about the same.
LikeLike
http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/in-tragic-twist-anti-balaka-christian-terror-groups-attack-african-muslims-9691/
Let us not over look this.
LikeLike
George Ryder
“your entire list is a bunch of lone loonies some of which aren’t even “Christian” but simply “right wing?””—-But this precisely proves my point. You were quick to label them as “crazy” individuals to avoid the fact that these well documented christian extremists do violent things.
Here is where you change positions in order to excuse: could you explain the specific things that christian extremists do in the modern world that would compare?
You asked me to explain specific things that christian extremist do in the modern world that compare. Not if those groups are as organized as the Muslims extremist you mention. My link fairly provided for what you asked.
You further tried to exuse by saying: once again, you don’t see christian extremists disrupting society on a scale like this at all.
This implies that the lives and buildings of Muslims is not a disruption. I am sorry that you view their lives, buildings, and rights as a minor inconvenience in society.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
“no not really. because you still don’t see christian extremist groups wreaking havoc on such a scale”—You stay in denial about a lot of things so I won’t view this as any different. At any rate the my point is that you will excuse their violence and that is precisely what you did even though that article only provided those arrested for the act many of those individuals are part of a group know as The Army of God. *shrugs*
“i’m not changing positions, i’ll stay with everything i’ve said so far.”—My purpose was never to change your position. My purpose was to prove how bias you really are towards Muslims. Which I did.
“i haven’t made any excuses.”—My goal was not to compare. That was your goal. Was it not you asking me to find groups that compare? Precisely so you can limit the amount of people seen as Christian extremist. 🙂 At any rate you made an excuse by trying to a) exclude who can be considered a Christian extremist and then b) excluding which is considered a “real” violent act. Could be other excuses but I will save it for only if you continue to go about this denial.
“i can argue that point with you all day if you want.”—You could, but you would in turn lose. Why you might be thinking? Because a Christian Extremist is not defined by what you want it to be verses what it is. There acts are not on a large scale based on what you considered a large scale, but what it is. They exist. They act. That is life. You don’t have to like it.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
It is nice of you to write a paragraph to explain your excuses, but what I said still stands dear. It is not going to change simply because you decided you would rather compare ( a lie you accused me of doing above by the way ;)).
“your assumption is noted”—That is not an assumption dear that is a proven fact in your very own statements and responses to Muslim violence. For example I posted an article of Christian violence and see how quick you side step that to focus on Muslim extremist. Not to mention the dismissal of Christian Extremist as a select few.
“wow, are you having a conversation with yourself LOL!”—Is there a definition for an extreme case of denial? Here is the link for your thoughts of the Christian extremist I posted. This is you excusing them on the basis of one man and not a group. Go ahead and laugh I am sure it will keep you for crying about your mistake. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/#comment-270344
“i’m not talking about individual extremists”—Last I checked you jumped in on what I said above so you defining or not defining Christian Extremist is of no matter here (and I said to you several times not to reply to my comments if you have no understanding of it).
Here is what you specifically asked of me “could you explain the specific things that christian extremists do in the modern world that would compare?” Please show me where you specified groups. I am sure you will rush to an early comment in which you said groups or even a later to cover your trail but we were not talking about groups and if you really want to go with groups…those individuals mentioned are in a group. The Army of God.
“only modern extremist christian group i’ve ever heard of that acts like the Taliban is this one right here”—-And you would not have heard of that because you were too business trying to convince the masses of how bad the Muslims are.
LikeLike
*we were not talking about groups specifically*
LikeLike
@George Ryder
I am not being obtuse at all and I get in your mind you believe that you are not excusing, but that is not what any of your post indicate. You keep giving your reasons simply because you are trying to get me to see it your way. If I was indeed assuming then you would not be trying so hard to explain it.
“I have no idea what you are talking about”—You never do and labeling me as obtuse won’t change that dear.
“i said i don’t believe christians are more violent than muslims & i gave my reasons why. you haven’t proven anything to anyone but yourself as usual..”—I know what you said, but you responded to my post which was not about what YOU said or really about what YOU think. You are a bit narcissistic. I don’t remember stating my goal was to prove anything to anyone else, but like most of what you say you start to imagine and…haha…assume my goals. I am sorry but you don’t know me very well so you may stop trying to convince yourself you do.
“I have no idea what you are talking about, but i’ve said the word “group” in almost every one of my posts.”—-You only mention groups when it is cconvenient dear. In the question you posed you did not mention groups.
In fact many of my responses that you replied to…..I repeat YOU replied to I never specified at all. You took it upon yourself to try to specify only and even when I made a statement you came back in efforts to specify. So realistically I was talking about extremist in general you took it upon yourself and yourself only to try to put in groups. So in all you create this sort of sh*t storm and then decided to get upset when people are not using your definition or your logic or your etc. Being that you responded to me to dispute me or whatever the case may be you are thus following my definition and not yours.
FYI You still managed to do exactly what I said you would do. Dang I am good.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
You are free to quote the whole conversation and re-post it if it will give you some solace, but what I said still stands strong. Here is my follow up response to that post
“Christian extremist do plenty, but the idea that they are Christian will paint them as “bad” individuals rather than as Christians.”—This was me making polite conversation about Christian extremist, but you had to make it an argument about Who is worse. So really it is all on you. Again if you don’t get what I am saying why respond just to make it an argument?
Besides I believe it really started here:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/#comment-270331
LikeLike
@George Ryder
As I stated what I said still stands strong all the same.
And it also shows that you are now playing the bait and switch. You only decided to now add the original first comment that YOU responded to because you feel like it proves your point (oddly how it was not even part of the conversation according to you), but that original comment again was not a response to you. It still does not change that my follow up did not mention “groups” even though you continued to say as such. Again you took my comment about Christian extremist and ran with it into your own tangent about groups. Yet you still refuse to acknowledge that not only did my links provide groups, but you still managed to do everything I said you will do to excuse your bias.
Now what? 🙂
LikeLike
At this point you are arguing just to argue. You have your Christian Extremist as well as your Christian Extremist “group” of a modern era no less and still all you can do is complain about how they are not as bad as the Taliban or other American government fashion terrorist group labeled Muslims. ROFL!!
Night dude. It was fun(ny) as always
LikeLike
In all honesty Christian terrorism goes the way of racism in America. No one wants to talk about it and it is very often sweeped under the rug. Like anything else that makes Americans look bad they try to attribute it to a few individuals and not to the very home grown groups/individuals that exist in America, yet the TV is riddle with acts by Taliban or some other group that then get’s attributed to all Muslims.
Although the focus was on war, that does nothe and should not exclude other acts of violence done by Christian and Muslim extremist.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
Either you are incredible desperate or you have such low self-esteem that you require medication. Here is yet another comment not directed at you or really has anything to do with you yet you run at it as if that is the case. The real whoosh belongs to you because everything just goes right over your head and you proceed on like a dog running for a ball that goes through the whole in the fence and the dog runs into the fence.
I don’t care what your OPINION on Christian Terrorism, because I have this thing called sources that provide information on the threat they pose. A threat that again gets swept under the rug.
“i could give you a laundry list of examples but a few that come to mind are flying planes into buildings, blowing up marathons, kidnapping people, video taping executions for propaganda, massacring schools, & destabilizing society in general”—-Interesting how this list looks exactly the same as the Christian extremist or Terrorist. Miss me with your foolishness.
LikeLike
hole not whole*
I know you are likely trying to redeem yourself, but you will have a better chance if you get your constant paranoia under control. That and your need to believe your opinion is above facts. Confirmation bias can be a MF.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder
The same can apply to Christian terrorism. Christian terrorism is not only a threat to Muslim-dominant countries it’s also a threat to other countries where Christianity is the dominant religion. History can certainly attest to global Christian terrorism (in the name of Christian missionary). You mentioned massacring schools, but how about the infamous massacre in Jonestown, Guyana (1978). A friend of my mum cousin’s (East Oakland native) was one of the hundreds of victims that were massacred by a Christian named Jim Jones.
Also, let’s NOT forget the KKK terrorism in the good ole’ name of Christianity. Many southern black Christians were the victims of that form of Christian terrorism. Whether individuals acknowledge KKK terrorism as Christian terrorism or not those burning crosses were definitely a reminder of terrorism in the name of Christianity.
It really boils down to who are affected by Christian and Muslim terrorism. Personally, I believe that whites are affected by and fearful of Muslim terrorism and blacks are affected by Christian terrorism (from slavery to the present). Christian terrorism affects modern-day black people mentally and spiritually. The white Jesus is a black person’s number one terrorist because he looks so much like the person who’s gunning down black males every month in our society (from Eric Garner to Tamir Rice). As ancestor Khalid Abdul Muhammad said: “Give Jesus a hair cut and shave and he’ll look just like the white man in the police department or Ku Klux Klan.” Enough said!!
LikeLike
I surely wouldn’t doubt that you don’t know anything about Jim Jones or his cult. Massacres and destruction come in many forms, like racism and other stuff, which you can agree to. My point, Mr. Ryder, is the nature of terrorism. I certainly agree with you on the fact that Christian terrorism is constantly swept under the rug.
Muslim terrorism does affect everyone living in America, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. However, there are groups of people who would say they are affected by domestic terrorism, whether it’s called Christian or Western terrorism, regularly.
Yes, Jones and his cult committed suicide, which is totally different than flying planes into skycrapers, but there were groups of people who were blown up in buildings, i.e. church buildings, by terrorists who professed to be “good Christians”. Come on, there’s two sides to everything in nature and society.
To paraphrase, you said that there’s a bigger threat that would love to see our nation leveled. Well, there’s an overt threat to a group of people in “our nation” that would love to see that group of people removed. Mr. Ryder, other people’s life matter too, right?
LikeLike
@George Ryder
“you are completely incoherent, or delusional.”—-Here is an example of an ad hominem (you know that word you over excessively used to describe what I was doing while trying to claim you have not or don’t do). Calling me names will not debunk what I said. It still stands.
“i don’t see Christian extremist groups”—You don’t see a lot with your head in the sand so I am not really surprise. Heck you refuse to do research on christian terrorism all the while claiming they don’t do it. In the list I presented above was of several accounts of christian terrorist who had kidnapped people and killed them, but that is not near as funny how your laundry list is now the only “proof” or merit for christian Terrorism.
“the fact that you think both groups pose an equal threat to society is laughable. seriously. but your entitled to your opinion as always.”—-I know I am entitled to my opinion. You are the only one who seems to be visibly offended by it. You focus more on it than actual facts.
LikeLike
@Michael Cooper
Good examples but there are others. I will find and post, though I imagine you know full well the others more so than me.
LikeLike
According to the 1973 Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary (my mum gave me her’s), it defines the KKK as a ‘white Christian separatist group’. It didn’t mentioned “extremist”, which it is. Also, in that same dictionary, the NOI and BBP (black separatist groups) were defined as “radical, but if you define the word ‘radical’ one would learn that means ‘root’ (dealing with the root of things). Yes, definitions of words change tremendously.
LikeLike
Let’s agree that some terrorism is swept under the rug while other terrorism is left exposed. I guess it boils down to what nation or society has the power and/or platform to sweep things under the rug, right?
LikeLike
@George Ryder
“I’m not insulting you at all. you ARE completely incoherent & incapable of following a conversation in english, that’s a fact.”—I wonder if Abagond would say the same thing? But again your opinion dear that you often confuse with a fact. 😉 besides I don’t hold english as some high standard and an ad hominem seems to be the only card you can play. 🙂
“it did give me some solace though thanks”—-I glad it did. So repost it a third time. I am absolutely loving watching you post something that catches you in your foolishness and you are none the wiser.
“you are a cherry picking incredulous derailer. keep on spinning tho WHOOSH!”—Yet I can probably pick several examples of your cherry picking. Isolating groups as the only type of comparable terrorism or even making your list the marker for terrorism.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder and sharinalr
Thanks for the comments. Have a blessed and wonderful day.
LikeLike
“incredulous derailer”—-I find it odd that I can derail something that you responded to. LOL.
LikeLike
@Michael
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
I will says that America is no stranger to sweeping things under the rug and I view it as similar to how America deals with racism. As I stated in a previous comment they will paint it as bad individuals to avoid acknowledgin the groups that act on it. Mind you cetrain individuals do, but not wholly.
LikeLike
@Abagond
Have you done a post on Christian Terrorism/Extremist? If not I think it would be very enlightening for people to see how well protected Christian Terrorism actually is.
This source has some, but it lacks in some other major groups that are actually considered Christian Terrorist/Extremist. Not to say it does not mention them, but fails to detail them. The Army of God actually has a website.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Contemporary
These groups are in plain sight yet the U.S. still sees there acts as no big deal or one not big enough to really put to the forefront the crimes they commit. They pick that one bad guy out and remove blame from the group as a whole.
LikeLike
Furthermore many of the Christian Terrorist groups are Militia. It is absolutely amazing that small armies of people are basically going unnoticed in the manner in which they are. They impose acts of but not limited to murder, forced conversion, forced removal, kidnapping, illegal drug trafficking, extortion, mutilation, torture, rape, and child laborers. Many of those child labors then turn around and serve as soldiers, porters, and sex slave for said groups.
I really have to wonder how much more that is swept under the rug when it comes to Christian Terrorist/Extremist.
LikeLike
I just read that the Taliban are considered political extremist/terrorist. Meaning their motives are not done over a religious factor. Yet many Americans can not separate them from other Muslims.
LikeLike
According to my source “The Taliban (Pashto: طالبان ṭālibān “students”), alternative spelling Taleban,[19] is an Islamic fundamentalist political movement in Afghanistan.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban
Any tactics that an extremist group uses does not dictate what type of group they are. As such it is gravely apparent that some people don’t really know the difference or just can’t separate the difference. To say that this group is religiously motivated simply because they practice said religion is equally as careless as….wait Abagond put it better so I will repeat “Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”
At any rate there attacks do not center around Christians or purging Christians so much as it it centered around disrupting political powers. Particularly that of the U.S. In thinking on this I have to wonder how many other so called Muslim terrorist are motivated by taking out western world powers as opposed to Christians or other religions. I think I will research and post later.
LikeLike
@ George
By writing a whole paragraph telling me I am wrong does not dispute what I am saying, especially when I provide sources. So you are in denial and I don’t care about your OPINION.
Good Day.
LikeLike
These are groups that seem to want separate states and are motivated by such a want rather than religion. Caucasus Emirate, Iraqi insurgents, Abu Sayyaf, Jemaah Islamiah, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Lashkar-e-Taiba, and East Turkestan Islamic Movement.
Abu Sayyaf for example “Since its inception in 1991, the group has carried out bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and extortion[7] in what they describe as their fight for an independent Islamic province in the Philippines.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Sayyaf
That is quite a few considering that most believe they are religiously motivated.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
Again. Saying I am wrong is not disputing me at all dear. Anyone can write a paragraph and say someone is wrong and give their opinion on why but that is not disputing me in the slightest.
“Clerics sanctify the bombers in their sermons, organizations including Hamas and Islamic Jihad identify and celebrate them as fighters in the jihad, and foreign donors provide aid that is siphoned off to the families of the martyrs”—This quote does not dispute me because frankly a person who practices a religion does not equal their acts as being religiously motivated. If you had an inkling of what Abagond’s quote meant you would realize that but once again the obtuse nature of your responses win again.
The real question here is why is YOUR insecurity my problem? Why is YOUR low self-esteem my problem? Why is YOUR denial my problem? Day in and day out you bring your problems to the forefront and try to push them on me. You need to learn to deal with your issues and move on. I have supported my claims while you run off your opinion/make believe facts coupled with confirmation bias responses that you cherry picked from a source that you are trying to attribute to something else. I am tired of arguing with you. You’re thickheaded. You make something out of absolutely nothing. sources be darn with you.
So from this point on, do not respond to me or mention my name or anything at all in my direction. I don’t feel the need to waste my time on your continued childishness. I will notify Abagond if he has not already seen that I have made this request.
LikeLike
al-Qaeda’s main goal seems to be to fight the United States. Makes me wonder what the U.S. did to them to make them want to come up with such an elaborate plan of attack. On top of that the group was diverse in schools of thoughts and political leanings.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
If you can’t read and see what my position is then you don’t need to attempt to debate me (this is a common practice/mistake of yours). Again leave me alone and do not address me again.
LikeLike
@ George
Once again and as always you are reading something in my post I am not saying and equally taking things from quotes and twisting them to mean what you want them to. Your issues are not my problem.
This will be my third and finale time asking you to no longer address me and at this point I will ask Abagond to reiterate my request. If you ignore his then you will likely find yourself subject to the comment policy, which would not bother me at all.
LikeLike
Even though they are all thrown in the same boat as a result of their religious practice, I think it is safe or fair to separate them and not have them lumped as one and having the same goals. Things that are viewed as different are constantly just lumped.
Even with Mormons they seem to lump us into one and only one group of weird polygamist. The principles of the extremist in Mormons is believed to be the overall principles of the group. Though Mormon Extremist are actually purely motivated on a religious factor.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
Quote on as much as you like. You still reading into it to mean something it does not.
@ Abagond if you don’t mind could you please instruct George to no longer address me.
LikeLike
At any rate if a group is labeled a political movement then there primary focus or goal is not religion. Most of the groups I mentioned primary targets are not other religions, but rather other political movements or westernization.
Boko Haram on the other hand seems to be another story. Even though they are purely against westernization they seem to also want to clear away anything they see as an enemy of Muslims. That can be looked at a few ways. Anything can become their enemy.
At any rate I have shared all I wish to share on this thread and will take my leave.
LikeLike
ROFL!!! So desperate.
LikeLike
LMFAO!!! Smh. Time for The Walking Dead.
LikeLike
Islamophobia is scary.
LikeLike
Smh. I wonder why some commenters make it their life work to bait people into talking to them. Desperate? Lonely? Insecure. Oh well not my monkey. Not my circus. ROFL
LikeLike
I wonder when it will become apparent that ad hominem does not equal = anytime I am upset and a person is ignoring me. Hmmm….
LikeLike
Again not my monkey and definitely don’t need to make it my circus.
LikeLike
@ George
Please no longer address Sharina. You may still comment on her comments.
LikeLike
I was late to respond, but I was going to tell you not to worry about it Abagond. I have officially made up my mind what I will be doing from this point forward and what I should have done a long darn time ago with my stubborn butt. 😉
LikeLike
Is it possible to miss a point for several posts now? *shrugs*
Thank goodness I am not suffering from Islamophobia.
LikeLike
And the follow up…..Still misses the point. For shame. Anger= shortsightedness = obtuse
I wonder where all those liberals are these people keep claiming are on this blog when someone does not agree with them. *shrugs*
LikeLike
The good ole fear tactic aka appeal to emotion and yet nothing addressed my point and it was likely because the point was not even known (rolls eyes). Oh well.
As it was so eloquently put……”Sometimes religion is a cause – or at least an excuse – like in the bombings by Christian extremist Eric Rudolph or the genocide in Sudan. But most often it is not. Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.”
Peace.
LikeLike
When it comes to Islamophobia appeal to fear is a common practice. Said individuals often find themselves reading into any objection to mean something it does not in efforts to get others to view things their way. None the wiser to the idea that others will not and do not have to agree. Some even go so far as to take inserts from articles and other means to show it proves their point, but still falls short on debunking the point the other person made. This really comes down to the other parties point being irrelevant to the Islamophobes point as they attempt to point to focus only on what they believe with means of fear.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_fear
LikeLike
OK so was curious on the racial make up of Muslims because I saw a racial element in how Islamophobia is mentioned.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5027866
LikeLike
@ Sharina @ George
Comment that George objected to is deleted per Sharina’s request.
LikeLike
I am sure if sb was around he would be playing the whole appeal to fear angle as well. It is just the nature of islamophobes as can been seen in the comments. When sb was around all he did was copy and paste articles he swear debunked any and everything.
Oddly enough the supposedly unbiased FBI has a detailed list of foreign terrorist organizations, but fails in this detailed list of christian terrorist/extremist. The list does not include them at all. I further find it odd that the FBI does not have an equal list for domestic extremist groups that include the names. Even though many are well aware of Christian extremist I have yet to see the FBI’s list of it. I don’t it is a simple mistake as Animal activist are listed as extremist/terrorist. hmmm….
LikeLike
FBI’s failure to detail such extremist as “right-wing” and Christian terrorism speaks volumes. In a section they label “Foreign terrorist organizations” they have not only the name of the group, but the very date they were designated. Yet the groups missing from this list are known Christian terrorist. If that is not an eye opener then the eyes looking are simply nailed shut. America takes such terrorist so serious, but is willing to detail terrorist groups all the way in other countries, while refusing to detail terrorist groups in America because they simply are of a Christian faith. OR could it be because they don’t want the world to see the terrorist on their very shores? Either way swept under the rug.
It is basically a pure distraction from reality to base the acts of christian extremist or even Muslim extremist on news feeds. Even more so a simple biased to say it does not happen on a domestic level. Does a domestic level negate that christian extremism happens/is happening? It doesn’t but for the American Islamophobe it makes all the world of a difference.
At the end of the day the Islamophobes can’t help, but prove the point placed in this thread.
“Christian extremist do plenty, but the idea that they are Christian will paint them as “bad” individuals rather than as Christians.”
No matter how they try to reword it or change the text or deflect from this very point here, they always seem to bring themselves right back to this obvious show of bias. Right over there heads and into outer space. 🙂
LikeLike
How does the U.S. government identify domestic terrorist organizations?
“It doesn’t,” I am told by a colleague who is in a position to know.
“The United States does not have a universally accepted process for defining and designating domestic terrorist individuals or groups which [is] shared throughout the law enforcement and homeland security communities.”
http://www.hlswatch.com/2010/06/29/does-the-us-have-any-domestic-terrorist-groups/
LikeLike
Most islamophobes don’t know the difference between caution and basic biased/fear of. Time and time in their comments they talk of how Muslims have no rights and as a woman you will have not rights. Using terms of “is that what you want” etc. So many examples in their very own comments so little time to highlight. At any rate definitions are clear and even more clear is the language such individuals use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia)
Funnier still is they try to argue something that was never being argued. For example this idea that “islamic states are taking sympathetic towards islamic extremism”. Who said they were or were not for that matter? It’s called deflection, but I guess islamophobes may call it a point. Another deflection is the idea of christian extremist are not torturing the west. Who said they were or were not again for that matter? I thought the topic was that they do plenty not that they do plenty to eveyone but the U.S. Even that is a well produced lie, but an Islamophobe does not know the difference. Anything to put that fear of Islam into others I suppose.
The funnier part is trying to correlate the idea that if the FBI ignored Christian terrorist then the threat would increase. The problem with that is no one is arguing they “ignore” them so much as sweep them under the rug. The acts are solidified yet most people are still lead to believe they are some random crazy individual. Though with research that is not the case.
Considering Islamic terrorist are Foreign (according to the FBI) then why would they make our domestic list? Not to mention the FBI does not have a domestic list in place for any group to make it. So such questions seem to be ridiculous in nature and is a clear sign that the FBI has done a good job at sweeping. I would expect people to be more curious about the lack of Domestic Terrorist list. For example I know that Abu Nidal Organization (ANO) is a terrrorist organization according to FBI (http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm), but I when click the link for domestic terrorism I get a paragraph of what is considered domestic terrorism. No group names. No designated date. No details. Hmmm….Are the names of this group not as important as the names of the Muslim terrorist? At the rate of things cops might need to be on there soon.
LikeLike
Isn’t it interesting how people claim you are xyz yet parrot any and every word you say to make themselves seem smarter or wiser. Oh well if the monkey leaves no circus, but information can resume.
At any rate islamophobia and the suffers from in generally only view through a single lens. It is not something to be helped when the U.S, chooses to put focus on certain individuals as “terrorist”. American media plays a major role in this and it would not surprise me if the majority of Americans are indeed suffering from islamophobia. Though truth is America has always viewed Christian religion as a sign of good and ignored the bad that can and has been produced from it.
If I take into account Hitler then we can see that most Americans love to say “He was not Christain” as a means to dismiss that he did practice according to his whim (not unlike most Americans). I have to wonder if he believe that Whites were the good race and based his racial ideas on a religious basis? I think to look at Christian terrorist would mean to really look at the fabric of the U.S.A
LikeLike
Christian*
LikeLike
Ok I just found out Hitler’s hatred of Jews was not a religious one. So that idea would be incorrect.
LikeLike
At any rate I am sure if we removed the idea of war and looked at the death tolls for each group then it is very likely that the Amount of deaths done by Christians will sky rocket. I would not even be surprised if the amount is even amount the two either.
LikeLike
Flooding the post with links that do not seem to prove or disprove any points is a bit….slow. *shrugs*
LikeLike
“Are Christians more violent than Muslims?”—-The world may never know, but in the mean time the world gets to familiarize itself with intellectual dishonesty and islamophobia.
LikeLike
I forgot confirmation bias. Pretty widely used tool of the islamophobe.
LikeLike
When one is preaching fear of said religion then they are not being cautious. I could pick several examples of this and the best most islamophobes can say is being cautious. This is similar to white folks that pull blacks crimes states and state they are being cautious. Sad but true.
It is so amazing how islamophobes argue things that was never said. I would be amazed if one can point out where anyone said Muslim extremist was not a problem (Any extremist is a problem) ? In between all that fear talk they slide this in. I wonder how many intellectual dishonest statements I can count from islamophobes. SB was a master at this and willfully obtuse no less.
LikeLike
Comments such as the one’s below are not cautious comments but appeal to fear comments:
“if islamic powers managed to take over the united states you would say goodbye to our religious freedom among many other freedoms. they wouldn’t allow christians to carry on in their faith. it would be death to the infidels.”
“Gotta love those muslims. Islam means murder for everyone. Boko Haram, ISIS, what’s the difference? It’s killing time.”
Even comments saying you will have no rights etc under islam is a fear tactic and not one of caution. As a women I have had islamophobes tell me what I will not get under the law in efforts to scare me into agreeing.
These comments are used to impose fear of Muslims. Seeing as similar comments range on for several posts it is preaching on the part of said individuals. Of course individuals will argue it is true and prance out confirmation bias articles as well as use intellectual dishonesty, but it does not change that these type statements are at the heart of any islamophobes tactics. Heck SB even denied christian’s attacking Muslims in the US so not much of truth can be expected.
LikeLike
I think this article speaks volumes on the idea of islamophobia, even if it is not refering to the U.S.
This line sums it up. “They see themselves not as racist or xenophobic, but as defenders of democracy and human rights against the adherents of a religion they believe is incompatible with both.”
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/10/islamophobia-racism-dresden-protests-germany-islamisation
In their minds they are doing it for some good. They don’t see it for what it really is. Sad yes, but true.
LikeLike
See what happens when a person thinks every comment is centered around them. Not only do they become paranoid, but they pick out a comment in efforts to accuse a person of putting words in their mouth….. all the while not realizing the person never said it was them.
At any rate islamophobes are free to stand by what they choose but they really need to realize that it does not magically make them right or exonerate them from preaching fear. Even if they provide a source behind that fear (confirmation bias). Especially when said source is another man’s opinion article. LOL!!!
I think I may continue this tomorrow.
LikeLike
^^^^smh. The sad part is I even mentioned other islamophobes and still this one only thinks of himself. *shrugs*
LikeLike
Wait I almost forgot. ROFL!!!
Good night.
LikeLike
I posted a question in the OPEN THREAD. I need coping skills and tips in corporate america. If anyone is able to give any, can you do so in the OPEN THREAD. I would so appreciate it.
LikeLike
Yet you can’t debate someone when you are not even talking to them. Smh.
Not to mention name calling without supporting evidence = ad hominem
name calling with supportive information as to why does not equal ad hominem. 😉
I wonder what they call it when a person whine about ad hominem after failing to support their stance past appeals to fear?
@Alicia
I gave a response on open thread. May not be much help but give me time to reach out to my friend.
LikeLike
Someone needs to look up the definition of intellectual dishonesty. I wonder if I make up a word would they repeat It?
Sources of appeal to fear and confirmation bias. Wow! Sure showed those Islam supporters. Now I wonder what stance or claim that was made that those support? Hmmm.. .
LikeLike
Okay okay…this has been hilariously amusing but again I have to call it a night.
LikeLike
They’ve both had their share of violence but the numbers put “Christian nations” over the edge.
Now I want to make a little rant about religion and our relation to it but it feels impossible to start without typing more than I’d really want to (and I’m a bit pressed for time right now). I guess I’ll be back.
LikeLike
@ George
Daniel Pipes and Robert Spencer on your list of authors are known Islamophobes.
LikeLike
Intellectual dishonesty does not mean someone says they are not talking to me and I believe they are so they are intellectually dishonest. The post has had quite a few of Islamophobia and all with the same tactics.
LikeLike
Preaching would require more than a short sentence and me going through several post to point it out. As such it has become painfully obvious who the joke is.
At any rate, no one can blame anyone else for not knowing the definition of words used. Someone once said that the worst thing a person can do is use a word proudly and use it wrong. I don’t know about worse, but it sure is sad. Even sadder when they are offered a chance to learn and are too thick-headed to do so. *shrug*
LikeLike
@ George
For all I know they are all Islamophobes. Those are just the two I know about.
LikeLike
Though the Islamophobia movement is dangerous, especially for Muslim Americans. I read a study (not sure if I posted it) that showed Muslim American as very patriotic. This contrary to a statement made by an islamophobe that Muslim Americans hate America.
LikeLike
ROFL!!! Comments of a proven islamophobe suffering from paranoia who doesn’t even know what intellectually dishonest means all the while throwing in a slew of ad hominems because of his/her hurt feelings.
Absolutely classic. Even more so than the fact that he repeats words others use to make himself sound smarter. PMSL
LikeLike
@ George
I was not going to bother to give you any attention, but I think why not. You are free to respond as I won’t ask abagond to say otherwise.
You call yourself responding to people to dispute them, but sadly you just never do. You just end up circling back to your point and hammering in your points. I am not sure what exactly that is called, but it is not a debate. Because you only really end up trying to bring focus to what you believe and taking focus away from the fact that you never disputed what a person claimed. I doubt you even realize what a person claimed half the time and because you change points so often it is common for people to even forget what you are trying to argue. So let’s now address some of your projection here.
1. You love to say how I lost credibility, but the reality is you have. Not just with your rapid lose of temper but your constant need to engage in confirmation bias or inability to research things to the fullest.
2. the constantly accusing me of derailing the discussion, but If I am throwing a comment out and you are responding to it then I am not derailing the discussion. The discussion stands on what I put out and if you decided to go on your own tagent about other points (which you regularly do) then you are the actual derailer.
3. Accusing me of goal post moving. The posts never move. You are actually the one that regularly seeks to change things to your points. As proven by the comment you chose to quote twice. You sought to change it into what you wanted to. That is not how a debate works dear unless you are seeking to be intellectually dishonest.
4. Cherry picking. All the links and comments you provided were nothing more than cherry picking. Something you do regularly and it shows in many of your comments.
5. I never misquoted you as I never said the comment was yours to begin with. Please feel free to point out any misquote and please feel free to point out where I said it was you. It will only display your paranoia or it will display that your responses here where nothing more than responses to me so you assumed I was indeed responding to you. *shrugs*
6. “use ad hominems to derail you”—Show me an ad hominem and not simple name calling. As I stated before you can not have this if a person is not debating you let alone not even talking to you.
“they will do anything but engage in a rational discussion. & this is because they don’t have a leg to stand on.”—-I gave you an opportunity for a civil debate before you started to call me names and at that point I decided that any response to you was not worth it because you can’t control your temper. You may have forgotten that to paint yourself as a victim, but this link will redirect you and anyone who wises to view it. I no longer choose to take you seriously. You are just not worth it. Your delusions are absolutely unbelievable.. smh
LikeLike
“where did i say this????”—-Where did I say you said that? Look! Another comment that proves my point.
http://depression-guide.com/paranoia.htm
LikeLike
I agree with your statement, Abagond, but I think it’s also worth mentioning that it’s incorrect to discredit or credit evidence based simply based on its source (I think you are usually good on this front).
Also, I just noticed what I think is probably a typo.
The estimate:
1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 7.0m
should read:
1370-1405: Conquests of Tamerlane: 17.0m
LikeLike
Forgot to add link to other post.
LikeLike
George
“throughout this entire discussion you have labelled me an islamaphobe & you have used quotes to support your assessment. you’ve also knowingly attributed quotes to me only to turn around and ask “-Where did I say you said that?””—Half the time I am not even talking to you, so really you need help if you believe every comment I made was about you or directed towards you. Just because you decided to respond out of this belief that it is about you tells me that it either applies to you and you are offended or you are just so darn paranoid that you can’t help it. In comments where a quote of yours is used does not mean every quote or statement in that comment is directed at you and only you. I said SB quite often in many quotes, but you ignored that. Do you know why that is? Do you know why you ignored SB in those comments?
“but you & i both know your rants on islamaphobia are most definitely directed at me.”—-You believe that and that likely is because you believe everything I say no matter what post is centered around you. Do you require a paragraph for you to realize what the purpose of those quotes were actually meant to expose or can this be something you can figure out yourself once you stop viewing everything is about you?
“you even sprinkle in quotes from other people & indirectly attribute them to me. “—I never attributed them to you. You attributed them to you. Are you now claiming to be a mind reader?
“Intellectual dishonesty is a failure to apply standards of rational evaluation that one is aware of, usually in a self-serving fashion.”—Stock definition that seems to apply to you. http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html
As you go through feel free to project more of your inadequacies on me. It is amusing. I will go back to providing information and ignoring you. 🙂
LikeLike
Here is the article I was talking about earlier and that I don’t see posted. http://www.islamophobia.org/
In December 2014, Jasser claimed that the “majority” of U.S. Muslims “hates America.”
“Jasser is quoted in the Jewish Exponent saying, “The bigger threat is the quiet majority [of American Muslims] that hates America, that doesn’t feel a bond to this country, would be horrified if their kids became military officers, and don’t feel an affinity for America.”
This is contradictory to “A 2011 Gallup survey, titled “Muslim Americans: Faith, Freedom, and the Future,” indicated that 69 percent of American Muslims “identify strongly” with the United States.”
Most islamophobes will simply ignore information to fuel their own agenda such as this one did. What makes one believe that a certain faith means they have hate for another country or religion? It is very naive thinking
LikeLike
^^^ It won’t make much of a difference because the moment I say something you will think it is about you. You simply can’t ignore me because you are obsessed with my every word. Almost as bad as thwack except he spread the psycho. smh 🙂
LikeLike
“I could spend all day listing more of the same. And that’s using the narrowest definition possible of “terrorism”—i.e., excluding any state-sponsored terrorist acts. We’re currently at various forms of war in five different Muslim countries, so it’s not surprising that some of the violence directed at us is from Muslims. But to claim that “100 percent of attempted terrorist attacks on the U.S. (and [other than Spain], terrorists attacks on all Western nations)” since 1995 are by “people claiming to act in the name of Islam” is so blatantly, demonstrably, obviously false that you really have to wonder about a person who would utter such a thing. And while most don’t veer quite as deep into the falsehood department as Weiss did, one would get the sense from listening to our standard political discourse that “Terrorism” and “Islamic-inspired Terrorism” are synonymous. It’s the kind of myth-based demonization that is as familiar as it is false, dangerous and repugnant.”–Glenn Greenwald.
I think this really sums up islamophobes. You have those that are extreme, but just because one is a little less extreme and mild does not make them less or not an islamophobe. I wager many have no real clue they are or what they are doing.
LikeLike
@masterblasterofdisaster
I have read it to be 19 m in some places. Though it is possible the source Is incorrect and states it as a high estimate.
http://wars.findthedata.com/l/90/Conquests-of-Tamerlane
LikeLike
The biggest islamophobes are usually the loudest to cry. AS the old saying goes “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”
Presenting the definition of words repeatedly does little to change the proof that is ever evident in the pudding. I am sure Weiss did not see or think his comments were islamophobic in nature, but that was precisely the natures of them. Atleast he was man enough to apologize.
“I stupidly broke one of my own writing rules there: Do not use an absolute unless you are absolutely, positively certain beyond any and all doubt. As sure as you use the words “never” or “always,” or “100 percent” someone will provide an exception. Glenn Greenwald on Salon.com provides several. I could quibble with some of his list or engage in some rhetorical dance about the definition of terrorism or try a numbers game about whether I was almost right or not. But the truth is, mine was a needless and incorrect reach that was not necessary to make my point. Which is that there are many more Muslims who oppose terror compared to the relatively few, very dangerous people who would use that faith to justify the murder of innocents. And it behooves us to do what we can to appreciate when those in the larger group do what they can to shut down the violence in spite of the potential consequences to themselves. I will surely make other mistakes down the road, but I will probably not repeat this one any time soon”
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/claim_that_all_terrorists_are_muslims_ignores_history/0012587
LikeLike
Personally I find that the U.S. inserting itself in people’s country has resulted in nothing more than them fighting back. From what I found quite a few seem to just be pushing back. It makes me wonder if there are more groups preparing for push back int he U.S. besides the designated “terrorist” groups. So many groups at that. When people have nothing to lose they will do anything.
LikeLike
I don’t know what is more interesting.
A) A person showing there bias
B) A person claiming not to be biased yet providing proof to their Muslim bias and fear.
*shrugs*
LikeLike
I simply find it so interesting when people make claims such as:
DISCLAIMER: not all muslims are alike, not christians are alike. but for the sake of this thread’s topic i will say i don’t think christians are more violent than muslims.
Then turn around and post several links showing the culture of Muslims. It really just highlights the true nature of their mindset or islamophobia as it is called. Unfortunately that part went over said individuals head in his efforts to assert “facts”. Another situation where no one disputed his links, but pointed out a pattern in characteristics. I would like to see said individual point out where I said it was not true. As my claim is they are both just as bad.
I forgot to add C) going on and on about derailing when nothing is being derailed. More projection or just running out of names to call. 😉
LikeLike
@ George
“& it’s “their” not “there” dear…”—So it is, but it changes little in what I pointed out. The fact that you think it does says you lost your argument to begin with. If you ever had one.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grammar%20troll
LikeLike
In other news I found this blog by Cory Doctorow. He could have been more thorough, imo, but he did manage to point out somethings that have been stated previously. Things like this are not of interest to the U.S. or U.K. and I think it has much to do with what Abagond pointed out in his other posts. America has no moral high ground but continuously seeks to appear as if they have. Everyone else is the boogie man. If America had been founded on Islamic faith I have reason to believe the U.S. would similarly protect it and ignore attacks of Islam nature, but because it was founded on Christian faith the opposite is true. I think I will do more research on christian attacks as well as islamic to further determine if the root cause of the attacks from them have to do with Western interference when many just want to be left alone. If the cause is centered on western interference rather than a religious one from most if not all of them then the question becomes…Is the U.S. to blame for the Muslim attacks against them? Is it fair to say that the U.S. interference is putting their people in danger?
http://boingboing.net/2014/12/12/us-christian-terrorism-the-ot.html
LikeLike
@George Ryder
As I stated before it is best that you not project your own inadequacies on me. You have several post of you mistaking facts for opinions and several more of you returning to clarify. In many cases you ignore facts and continue to hammer in your point or opinion.
You regularly jump to hasty conclusions, so are you going to apologize for several posts above of you doing such? I think not.
“Commentaries on muslim culture at all.”—I never said they were commentaries, but it also appear you don’t read your links. Even more proof of what I said about your bias.
Anything else you need attention for?
LikeLike
WOW. I was not aware the Americans are actually among ISIS members. Were Americans not also among Taliban and Al quaeda?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/americans-isis-fighters-german-journalist-article-1.2055169
LikeLike
@ George
I know good and well we are not going to have to go through the definition of commentaries vs the definition of links.
“you just said i postied links on the culture of the Muslims, which i didn’t.”—-You do realize that islamic states are area of Muslim communities right? Not simply ISIS as some might believe. Your links are pretty much reporters and possibly other reports of what these people say think and believe in those areas. How they are expected to act and behave in those areas. The hatred these people have for others in those areas. So yes my naive dear individual you have posted several links specifically aim at providing information on the culture (which I hope like heck I don’t have to define) of these people. Yet oddly for people so deadly it amazes me one man actual went to said area and lived, but that is another story.
Anything else require thorough explanation before I either ignore you or call it a night?
LikeLike
@ George
“boingboing.net is a very reliable source of information i’m sure….”—Newsflash. It was not presented as some reliable source of facts. You know some people actual present links that do not serve that purpose but rather are interested in what the person has to say. I found what he said interesting and shared. Simple as that.
LikeLike
Did some research on Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, and Menahem Milson. All of them are islomaphobes. In “Reform vs. Islamism in the Arab World Today” Milson states “The terms “extremist Islam,” “militant Islam,” “radical Islam,” and “Islamism” are synonymous.” I will have to read up on the others to determine if there is any islamophobic innuendo.
http://islamophobia.org/islamophobic-individuals/robert-spencer/78-robert-spencer.html
http://www.lobelog.com/daniel-pipes-steps-out-of-the-closet-as-an-islamophobe/
http://annaqed.com/en/muslims-under-the-microscope/reform-vs-islamism-in-the-arab-world-today
LikeLike
George
No one is saying your sources are not credible and the fact that you are repeating this says a certain something about whether a closer look should be taken to determine if they really are. I am well aware they report on areas they choose to go to or are assigned to, but you do realize that you are choosing articles specifically based on how bad it make Muslims look. You have yet to present one viewing the other side of Muslims. As such you are engaging in confirmation bias. Seeking sources that support your own belief.
“the news links i posted are about events & facts not opinions or culture.”—I never said the links or events were an opinion, but yet again you’re constant need to repeat this tells me that they need a closer look to determine how much of an opinion really lies within. At any rate one of your very posts has pictures of the proper way to pray so to say it is not talking about culture is you not reading the post or you simply being blind.
LikeLike
Of the others that I found David Bukay, Andrew Bostom, and David Horowitz are actually islamophobic. In Many of their articles they try to correlate the Muslim religion with being violent. Some of the others do not have enough information to truly determine if they are or are not.
LikeLike
Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Menahem Milson, David Bukay, Andrew Bostom, and David Horowitz are noted islamophobes that have surprisingly written quite a few pieces that people swear by. I have heard people say they are not islamophobes (via some blog), but have notably not read enough of their work to realize they do not see a difference between Muslim culture and Muslim extremist. They are viewed the same. This is why people have to pay close attention to what they read these days. One could be supporting a racist and not have a clue. This is especially true if one holds some of their views to be true, then they become blinded to the hidden message or agenda.
LikeLike
@George
It is obvious I don’t care what you think. Only you feel this desperate need to hammer in what you think. Your opinion is not a fact.
“do you just make this stuff up as you go?”—You can’t make up something when you quote directly from them and they make it quite clear they see Muslims and Muslim extremist as the same.
Perhaps you may try actually reading up on those authors before trying to say what they believe or what they are actually writing about.
Another post not directed at you yet same Ole need of attention from you.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
“it is obvious you don’t care what i think, no doubt about that.”—Apparently it is not because every post you directed at me as a “I think” or “I don’t believe” paragraph. Now either you are in denial or disbelief.
“but you are hammering your opinion in quite well too, it goes both ways.”—The difference here is I am simply providing information I found where as you are directly trying to tell me your opinion. That is because you still have this deluded idea anything I say has to do with what you have to say. You care way more about my every word than I really care about yours. Seems to be another issue of yours your are in denial of.
“perhaps you should actually read a book before you form an opinion on it?”—-I read several books, so forming an opinion on them is easy. Perhaps you were referring to reading a book on the men you listed. Well a better opinion can be formed on them in general by reading more than one of their pieces of work (you should try it). As such from other works they have written I have determined they are islamophobes. I even went so far as to quote something from one of the gentlemen above. You deciding to ignore that piece of information only solidifies your willfully obtuse nature. AS such it is really pointless to say much of anything to you because it will all go right over your head. See abagonds post of willfully obtuse for further reference on your very nature.
“another example of intellectual dishonesty from you, not surprised..”—You have no real clue what intellectual dishonesty is beyond the fact that I presented it and you want to sound learned. As such you repeating it like the single-minded parrot you are will not make me any more or less intellectual dishonest because you say so. At any rate Abagond actual stated he was not sure how many others were actually islamophobe other than the two he knew of. I took it upon myself to provide information to point out others. I also let him know of the ones I was not sure about. As to reading the books you listed, please review my response above.
I think the only level of ignorance being displayed here is by you no matter how much you want to deny it. It is pure ignorance to be mad over my opinion. It is ignorance and down right paranoia to think every thing is about you. It is ignorance to think your confirmation bias some how proves you are right. It is ignorance that keeps you obsessed with me and my words. Perhaps the truth hurts, but not my monkey…..not my circus.
LikeLike
“According to the FBI, only 6% of the terrorist attacks on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 were carried out by Muslim extremists.”—So the real question is that knowing that other extremist have carried out more attacks on U.S. soil then why is the issue still Muslim extremists? Jews carried out a percent more and they are not even on the radar of fear.
I wonder.
LikeLike
@ George
“no you are providing opinion, and i guess some links to blogs & stuff lol”–Providing information does not require a stipulation that it is “fact” or opinion. It is just providing information. Perhaps if you knew the difference then you will not be up in arms about everything I say.
At any rate I only provided one blog source based on the reason I stated above. My source are just as credible and for you to say not is just really you using again your willfully obtuse nature and intellectual dishonesty. As you have yet to find a way to discredit anything I have used other than saying “no it’s not”. I on the other hand have pointed to 6 of your authors being islamophobes with sources.
At the very least no one is talking to you at all and you are trying to create a debate out of your paranoia. A debate you lost a long time ago. You just refuse to let go.
LikeLike
@ Geroge
“published books on islamic extremism which foolishly believe are commentaries on all islamic culture.”—In your free time please point to my post where I said the books you published were on culture.
As to your links providing information on culture they do. I fear someone does not know the definition of culture. Oh dear me. Should I define it for you and provide the very link that shows this culture?
LikeLike
Reading more into some of the known islamophobes I have found that they feel the Muslims should change their ways to be more acceptable in modern times. An example used is slavery in the majority of Muslims cities. The problem I see with this is that it overlooks slavery in majority Christian areas. The very things that Muslims are chastised for seem to be the very things that Christians, not sure about Jews, practice. Even if in secret.
“In his article “Islam for the Perplexed,” Fitzgerald supported U.S. government and private persecution of Muslims:
“The second important goal is to stop all Muslim migration to Muslim lands, to the U.S., to Canada, to Western Europe. For obvious reasons, Muslims do not migrate to Eastern Europe and Russia. If possible, not only should migration be stopped, but life can be made more difficult, if not by the government, then by private individuals, so that Muslims will be discouraged from remaining.”
This Fitzgerald guy is a certified islamophobe.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
smh. So you basically get caught in another straw man/ lie argument and you try to use your failed logic to wiggle out of it? Ok.
For starters I never said I read any of their books, but there other published works. I said this for several posts now so you trying to take a quote from what I found from their other sources I read is pure dishonesty on your part. There is a fallacy for that, but I just can’t seem to find the name of it at the very moment. I will provide the link for easy viewing of your continued dishonesty.
So anymore straw men arguments you want to present?
“like boingboing.com or any number of the extremist blogs you visit?”—I actually don’t visit extremist blogs, but one blog does not equal “blogs.” 😉
“don’t make me laugh. you’ve proven yourself to be entirely uncredible.”—Based on the straw men arguments, outright lies, fallacies, and other levels of intellectual dishonesty in many of your responses I would say only a true fool would find you credible. The projecting from you is hilarious.
You may have lost the argument, but you have successfully shown the type of person you are. Always a pleasure. 🙂
LikeLike
@George Ryder
“i have set up no straw man argument at all, i simply question your ignorant statements and flimsy sources, there’s no straw man here…perhaps learn what a straw man is?”—Actually here is another lie. You never questioned my sources you basically outright said they were not credible. Based on absolutely nothing other than one being a blog. Likely the other reason being that you don’t agree with them. Now because you may be unfamiliar with your tactics I decided to define it with examples.
A straw man is “an argument based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.” You misrepresented my claim in this quote “your opinion is their books claim muslim extremism & muslim culture are one & the same, this opinion is misinformed & that’s a fact.” You actually continue to do so because I never made a claim once dealing with the books at all. I only pointed out the islamophobes based on other works
“i never said you said you read any of those books, of course you didn’t, in fact i actually said i’d wager you didn’t…remember that? probably not.”—Nice try, but you got caught. You tried to claim my reasoning/logic.
“i have lost no argument as you have already admitted yourself you aren’t even addressing me…do you remember saying that? probably not.”—-I stopped addressing when you lost. Duh. Several posts up. 🙂
“i’m just going to get back to reporting the daily news if you don’t mind. i’m not trying to sweep islamic extremism under the rug like you are.”—-Another one of those straw man arguments.
And this is why you don’t argue with the willfully obtuse. They stay in denial.
Good bye.
LikeLike
@George Ryder
Yet you still can not point to where I directly and clearly stated their ” books claim muslim extremism & muslim culture are one & the same.” Emphasis on BOOKS. Not in that paragraph or anywhere else on this board. Only thing you have is YOUR reasoning (one you are trying to claim is mine). That my dear is all pure bread straw man.
Are you trying to contend that they have not writing other works? Are you saying their books are the only ones to be viewed in forming an opinion about the 6 authors?
At any rate it is really one of many that you have used and pointing them out is just going to be you in this same ole denial. *shrugs*
In the words of Abagond “no amount of facts or reasons, no matter how clearly, calmly and patiently you lay them out, is going to change the minds of the wilfully obtuse. They are too brainwashed. They are too far gone.”
On that note,
Goodbye. 🙂
LikeLike
intellectual dishonesty is many different fallacies in one word. When you are someone who has been guilty of 12 of them it is really hard to continue to call others it unless you just are suffering from delusions of grandeur.
LikeLike
written*
LikeLike
^^^ SMH
The only thing I got from this is Waaa you will not see it my way. You will not agree with me. You are not being fair.
Why would anyone need to reason with a person they are simply having a conversation with? Probably because they are not trying to reason, but trying to force them to view it their way.
I guess that is what happens when people get caught in a lie and using fallacies such as straw men. They swear everyone else is out to win even though they dug their own graves. I just wonder if said person realizes how many straw man arguments he actually used?
*shrug*
LikeLike
and when all else fails call names, because nothing said “I got caught doing wrong” like name calling and butthurt responses.
*shrugs* 🙂
LikeLike
Well goodnight. It was fun(ny) as always. 😉
LikeLike
Oh and before I truly go:
“you can’t really follow peoples arguments so you dismiss & derail, among other things”—–You mean the way you dismissed and basically changed the subject on my claim above in the very beginning? It is ok. It is very evident that you project and now lie.
Again goodnight.
LikeLike
Smh* Shrugs* 😉
LikeLike
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/shrug
“To raise (the shoulders), especially as a gesture of doubt, disdain, or indifference.”—another simple word that requires the definition of because one has no clue what it means. Yikes.
LikeLike
Yet another example of Poisoning the well:
she even emphasizes truly.
Yet another example of straw man:
Person 1: You lost your argument
PErson 2: you win, hooray! keep on winning, you go girl! i’m rooting for you! can you tell me what argument you think you won?
Notice no claim of “I won”.
“Straw man: debater attacks an argument that is easy to refute but which is also an argument that no one has made in the debate.” (http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html)
When you employ intellectual dishonest tactics such as double standards or changing subject then you never had an argument that was winnable. You never had one to begin with. This was pointed out above and this is something I will not waste time copying and pasting for the sake of the willfully obtuse. It is not what I think. It is simply what has been proven.
LikeLike
@George
The problem with your logic is implied and an argument made are two different things. You can claim all day what you think I implied but it will never be an actual argument I made. Thus your straw man.
People lose arguments all the time with no “winner” or without someone having to claim “winner”. I did not claim it as my purpose was more information based not win/lose based. You on the other hand made it clear quite often that your purpose was win/lose based. As such pointing out your lose is why you are spazzing now. Besides you don’t really think you can win an argument of logic with you are using fallacies do you?
“i’d really like to better understand the straw man argument i set up let alone what easy argument i refuted”—Here is an example of intellectual dishonesty (I forgot the specific one though). You only chose to have me prove half of the definition of straw man to avoid any proof provided of your straw man. The other end of the definition of straw man is “which is also an argument that no one has made in the debate.” I provided an example for you of you doing just that. If you need further examples of you doing it then just go back to the several other posts that point out your straw man arguments. This thread is not void of your many examples, but I will no longer be copy/paste them for you to lie and deny.
“perhaps you’ll just shrug?”—Of course I will shrug because I am indifferent to you silliness at this point. You are just going in circles. I should SMH as it is pathetic. *shrugs*
LikeLike
@George
At the end of the day you are not breaking anything down for me or teaching me anything. You are doing it all for yourself, because you need to prove you know. You need to solidify you won something here. You need to change my mind. Nothing you do will. I made 3 claims above and you were not able to address any of them short of a fallacy.
Now once again you want me to show you were you messed up or where you lose. To what end? So you can deny again? So you can redirect to your points? Waste my time.
LikeLike
Comment is in moderation, but I wanted to be clear on one thing.
“The problem with your logic is implied and an argument made are two different things. You can claim all day what you think I implied but it will never be an actual argument I made. Thus your straw man.”
Further explanation on why once comment is out of moderation.
LikeLike
George
You’re not calling me out dear. You’re showing that the arguments you are applying to me are all based on what you believe I said or meant. Not what I said or meant. Another fallacy of yours.
You still have not pointed out to what comment is actually derailing, but you have provided another example of poisoning the well.
If I did not know any better the truth appears to be hurtin you only. You are the only one calling names. *shrugs* 🙂
LikeLike
@George Ryder
“you don’t understand how saying i lost an argument implies that you won?”—-You don’t understand that x does not always equal y. If a person is not black it does not automatically mean they are white. If a person loses it does not automatically mean someone won. It is a fallacy if you beleive it must equal what you say or believe.
“who was i arguing with then?”—For the most part yourself, but at this point you have no idea at what point you lost, how you lost, or what fallacies you used in that argument that cemented your lose. Either way your argument did not withstand. You also do not know my claims to say you disputed them. You focused more on hammering in your point. Hammering your point is not a win for you. What are my claims?
“this is really simple stuff, definitely not brain surgery.”—Apparently it is for you. You are stuck in your ways and your ideas and you apply this to what other people should see and should think.
“but you aren’t looking for an honest conversation, are you?”—Using fallacies is not being honest and you refuse to admit to using them even when they are pointed out to you.
At the end of the day you are just a childish individual who for some odd reason is obsessed with my words. Why do my words bother you so much? I am sure none of my questions will be answered as I have asked you several that you ignored.
At the end of the day….you are simply bothered by me. So allow me to show you how not bothered I am by you.
Bye George/Felicia.
LikeLike
believe*
LikeLike
I see there are a lot ofinsults being heaved back and forth, Oh why doesn’t Agabond censor this? It’s being done by his pet white folks that he loves so much, interesting to see how this site has devolved into mud-slinging B.S.lol.
LikeLike
Nice article on Islamophobia and the anti- Muslim sentiment.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/157082/islamophobia-understanding-anti-muslim-sentiment-west.aspx
LikeLike
Liam Neeson is actually considering converting to Islam following his recent visit to Istanbul. Whites , who are not “Christians” by any stretch of the imagination, demonize and criminalize any group of people who r a direct threat to their white supremacist doctrines. Whites FEAR Islam, because Islam is the only group that isn;t kow towing to global white supremacy and the dictates of the west.
LikeLike
@George
Please take a stadium full of seats. The examples you provided are not derailing. Derailing is going off topic period. On top of that only you tried to focus the conversation on “Groups” as the claim you attempted to dispute was not specifically focused on groups, but Islamic extremist period. Should I provide the link as you try to go on and on about how my source did not meet the bar because it did not compare as a result of me not showing groups.
As to the books portion of the argument, you made a claim I said something about your books that was a false claim. You lied dude. The gig is up.
“clearly implying something only to turn around & say “i never said…,””—Implying and saying are two different things and everything I supposedly implied is based on what you believe I mean. Not derailing, but your failed logic.
“misrepresenting people through quotes & then saying “i never said you said that…”—This is intellectual dishonesty on your part. Not derailing. I never said the quote was yours and it was one of many comments not even directed at you, but using examples of islamophobes. You are one, but not the only one as I did mention Sb in that very comment I believe.
“i really could go on & on & on.”—Please do.
“but know this whoever you are, you don’t bother me at all. talking with you is like comedy to me, i find it very very entertaining.”—This would hold truth if you did not flood the board with comments directed at me even when I am not talking to you. Not to mention the refusal to no longer address me even when asked. So yeah proof is in the pudding. 😉
Fyi please use google to find proper examples and definitions of derailing.
Bye Felicia.
LikeLike
@Thoko Zile Xaba
“Whites FEAR Islam, because Islam is the only group that isn;t kow towing to global white supremacy and the dictates of the west.”—You make an interesting point as I was pondering on the real fear of Islam. Especially considering that stats seem to show other extremist groups as more of a threat.
Most of what I read seems to point to this idea from islamophobes that they want Muslims to change or curve their doctrine to assimilate into modern society. In the same way other religions did. hmm….
LikeLike
“remember, being cautious about islamic extremism is not islamophobia.”—-I know that, but that does not change that you are still an islamophobe and frankly this is not the only thread you have happily displayed it.
At this point I am going to have to place you back on mental ignore because I can only deal with a persons lies, intellectual dishonesty, and fallacy arguments for so long.
“thanks for “honestly” engaging me in “conversation.” always a good time.”—You don’t know what honesty is which is why you avoid the questions. You avoid them and try to focus or redirect me to focusing on defending myself from the many names you wish to call me.
“Avoiding/Ignoring the question or “ . . . and let’s not forget about . . .” Anybody who refuses to admit that their argument is weak in an area and, worse still, avoids answering difficult questions in that area is being intellectually dishonest. If they don’t ignore the question, these people are easily recognised from their efforts to change the subject.”
http://informingthemisled.onlineinfidels.com/2010/06/17/10-signs-of-intellectual-dishonesty/
You managed to be guilty of all 10 signs by the way.
Later tater.
LikeLike
@ Sharina, I am Deepdkchocolate a poster that u stated that u would not post to because u feel I am
“crazy” and what u read would not be anything I would even consider reading.
LikeLike
Correction Christian extremist period* not Islamic extremist period.
While I am not surprised by the Mormon outlook on Muslims, I can say I am a bit disappointed. The christian teachings really seem to fall short on those that are different. Considering the persecution that Mormon’s experienced one would think they would know better than to exert the same amount of religious persecution to another.
Expecting Muslim Americans to carry to burden because of Muslim extremist is the same as expecting Mormons to carry the burden of the polygamist branch of Mormons.
LikeLike
@Thoko Zile Xaba
In that case then carry on.
LikeLike
Exactly.
LikeLike
Nathan Lean wrote an piece called “Stop Saying “Moderate Muslims.” You’re Only Empowering Islamophobes.”
The theme in his works along with many others is Muslims must fit an acceptable profile. Just like the acceptable black. A laundry list of things you must do to become less scary and they still may not work.
“Many Muslims themselves have bought into this dichotomy, if only to distance themselves from the so-called radicals and extremists—to assure paranoid non-Muslims, in other words, “I’m not that kind of Muslim.”
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118391/troubling-phrase-moderate-muslims-only-empowers-islamophobes
LikeLike
^^^Bye Felicia. *waves* 🙂
LikeLike
On random thought, When is the United States going to up it’s stance on domestic terrorism. Other countries have better and more detailed protocols in place for identifying terrorist/extremist organizations. While the US is putting green movements as a criteria of being an extremist/terrorist.
They still have no detailed list in place to showcase the names, designation, or origin of the supposed domestic extremist they have tracked.
Other independent organizations have tracked other extremist groups in place that were not originally known. Though the fact still remains that there is an unwillingness to view and deal with Christian extremist in the same light as Muslim extremist are viewed. Especially in Christian countries.
More research is needed. I will post what I find.
LikeLike
“yer a nutcase. no wonder there was no reasoning with you!”–Says the person desperately seeking the attention of someone ignoring them. Bye again Felicia. Go ask your man for attention girl.
LikeLike
And it is at this moment I present: Argument by assertion and Argumentum ad lapidem
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion
LikeLike
Bye Felicia.
By now most people would get the gist the I don’t care what they think. Leave it to an emotional female. Smh
LikeLike
Bye Felicia.
I don’t know why some people believe that addressing a person ignoring them equals that person is addressing them. smh*
(http://youtu.be/mjEcj8KpuJw)
LikeLike
Want to know what is childish? Calling a person names and harassing someone just because they will not agree with your logic. Even though said person respectfully asked to not addresses them 4 times total. and had to resort to asking the blog owner to ask said person to stop. Now that is creepy as well as childish. Though talking to comments not directed at them may actually top that cake.
The world we live in.
LikeLike
@George
“you live in a fantasy world of your own.”—I live in a fantasy world yet I can provided links to the direct comment of you harassing me after I asked you respectfully to no longer address me? This board is riddled with you convinced several comments are addressing you when they are not. How about you just leave me alone? Is that really hard?
And this is after several posts of you being ignored.
“bye Adolf.”—Another fallacy. Okay Felicia!
LikeLiked by 1 person
OFF TOPIC: George Ryder and Sharina.
LikeLike
I thought this was interesting article. One of the commenters on here did a blog post on this guy. I personally thought he was crazy, but wow.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/10/21/christian-extremists-threat-muslims-homegrown-cliven-bundy-column/17679789/
LikeLike
Bundy’s backing and supporting seem to be from Neo-nazis.
“The mainstream news media have been remarkably slow when it comes to zeroing in on the pervasive reality of hate-based Christian extremism. It is easier, after all, to blame the un-American other. In 2012, six Sikhs were killed and three wounded in Milwaukee by Wade Michael Page, a neo-Nazi skinhead. The “dangerous other” isn’t always Muslim or Muslim-looking. The Millers affixed a swastika to the body of one of the two police officers they killed.” —-Completely agree with this from the link.
In other news I was trying to find where Muslim extremist have attacked America other than 9/11. There appears to be few specific attacks. The biggest victims seem to be in other countries, but the media uses this to fuel the fire of Islamic fear and hate. Then again what can you expect from a media that also refuses to highlight Americans christian extremist and other extremist such as anti-muslim extremist groups. *sign*
LikeLike
Depends on what you view as Christianity- If you think of Christians based on what pop media tells you and pop views then yes it seems they are violent but there are a lot of little groups that aren’t for instance the Quakers had peaceful relationships with a lot of the Natives and were known to give them food instead of beating them up and trade happened.
Believe it or not it was the British that roped American Natives into preforming raids on Colonists who refused to join the system but then again a lot of the American Natives are not really native either so there.
LikeLike
Are Christians more violent than Muslims? The answer is actually NO.
The reason being is because American society holds Muslims to a different standard than Christians. The war on terror really is just the war on Muslims. Take for example the Kansas city attacks. A lot is not being said about it. Mainly because it does not fit the Islamic jihad stereotype. The media will likely paint it as the lone wolf attacks. With that media lack of coverage, we could have a full blown army in the shadows and America would not know it or care.
Before 9/11 America society had not been attacked by Muslim extremist. None even today. Victims of attacks overseas may have a case but America and it’s community of islamophobes don’t have one. This is precisely where the fear tactic seems to come into play.
Conscience or subconscious the idea that if one does not get a hold of Muslims then it will result in Muslims taking over. This is precisely why people such as Fitzgerald and certain governments are now discriminating against Muslims. Media talk and words masked with “taking a closer look at” are really just masks of fear that the average person takes as a call to discriminate. In Europe women practicing their faith have been restricted (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/muslims-discriminated-against-demonstrating-their-faith-2012-04-23). In the US they are facing discrimination (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/29/muslim-discrimination-cas_n_842076.html)
LikeLike
@PurpleHaze
As a christian myself I don’t generally view Christians as evil and because it appears you are responding to the post in general I would have to also say neither does Abagond (Catholic).
Even still I believe it is dangerous and very careless to overlook Christian extremists, while putting the strong arm on Muslim extremist.
LikeLike
@ PurpleHaze @ George @ Sharina
I deleted comments about George and Sharina. They are off topic.
LikeLike
@ George Ryder
That was written by someone who works for a think tank supported by the British war machine. Fox News does the very same thing with its “retired generals” who, they never tell you, work for military contractors. They also appeal to Islamophobia. Hmm, I wonder why.
LikeLike
Now the real question is how many of these sources are a result of a think tanks that appeals to ISlamophobia?
LikeLike
I just finished reading this article and it is very interesting how the minds of the big players of al-Qaida actually worked. At the end of the day it really boils down to attacks based not on religion or Christians, but an attack on the political powers. Thus being extremist that practice Islam.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/terrorism-july-dec06-looming_09-05/
Where islamophobia comes into play is that many islamophobes actually view the attacks as a religious take over even though most terrorist groups states their goals and missions to be destruction of political powers. This is not to say they are not terrorist none the less, but the need to correlate their religion with their act causes as sense of fear. It promotes the fear that those that practice Islam will or can turn into a terrorist. Many media islamophobes argue that they are just criticizing bad Muslims, but ignore the very underlining message in what they are saying. A message that sends out to many people the idea that a Muslim is a terrorist until proven otherwise.
In a video I watched an islamophobe made the argument of “supposedly moderate terrorist.” She was very much blind to the words she has used. Words which insinuate that being a moderate Muslim is a lie. When question about it her response was that she was just letting people know about Muslims terrorist. In her argument she goes on to say that she knows what they think and believe. She was defended by other who tried to argue she was not an islamophobe because she helped Muslims. As one blogger put it….that is equal to the “I have black friends” argument.
On top of that I think America exaggerates any “harm” others do to it. An Attack on America is equal to excuse to take over country and bomb you several times and Most Americans will see it as justified. What they won’t see is the events that lead up to the attack. I think the Samatha Power post illustrates this blindness quite well. So does white lens in a sense.
LikeLike
In the words of Trojan Pam
“it’s been my personal experience that people get angrier when you tell the truth on them than when you lie on them.”
LikeLike
This is something I find odd. One of the islamophobes on a media panel quoted 15 to 25% of Muslims being extremist, but I have not been able to find those numbers anywhere. I have to wonder if they even exist, but if they are a lie the media will not apologize for it.
LikeLike
This actually reminds me of the guy I called racist. He tried to explain how he was not racist. Then he tried to claim blacks think everything is racist. Then he tried to explain his black friends. Then he got angry and called names. Same with islamophobes.
People who are not islamophobic have no need to be mad or upset at a person using the term to describe a group of people who regularly use news outlets to promote fear and hate of Muslims to the masses. That Brigitte lady does it all the time with no remorse. I guess in her mind she is helping.
Whites truly suffer from a mental disease. One that spreads to certain people of color.
How did Mary put it?….”Throw it out there and a hit dog will holler.” hmm….smh….*shrug*
LikeLike
@Abagond
Do you know the name of the post or do you have a post that talks on how whites think they know better than you do? I think the massive illustration of how one becomes the dumb crazy negro because they are not pacifying the fragile white male ego has prompted me to learn more.
I would like to read up on it.
LikeLike
Looks like the term islamophobe has no political drawn line. Bill Maher can successfully take his place among the growing number of islamophobes.
“The FBI study does not include all gun-related violence, which would yield numbers several orders of magnitude higher. In fact, an analysis by Mother Jones of mass shootings between 1982 and 2012 found that in the incidents, in which 530 people were killed, more than 60 percent of the shooters were white males. But we don’t see government efforts aimed at curbing white male violence, or a public backlash against white male gun owners. Rather we are expected to fear “homegrown terrorists” exclusively of the Muslim variety.”—-Something islamophobes refuse to acknowledge.
http://www.internationalwww.alternet.org/belief/meet-some-americas-most-dangerous-islamophobes-you-might-be-shocked-who-they-are
LikeLike
I understand where this guy, Steven A. Isaacson, is coming from, but I disagree on some key points. I agree that talking about or expose Muslim extremist must be done, but I also think calling out islamophobes must be done also.
Many islamophobes have trouble separating Muslims and extremist. This is what Steven A. Isaacson fails to understand. Like racist islamophobes hide behind certain ideas of thoughts to appear unbiased and if you let them talk long enough they expose their true ideas. Truly listening to the words that some of them say is very telling into their nature. Brigitte Gabriel ( finally ran across her name) gives tons of speeches and in each one she begins with talking about her youth in a war torn area filled with Muslim violence. She rarely if ever distinguishes between extremist and average Muslims. She preys upon the misinformed and those seeking to confirm their fears and bias. I will post more on her later.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/the-islamophobia-effect/
LikeLike
Isn’t it funny how you can say the same thing repeatedly and then all of a sudden the white lens is taken off and they can see it. smh.
LikeLike
Abagond I took it upon myself to post a link to your reading while white post. You had many so I was not sure which one to choose. I figured your resident white guy could learn a thing or two about how reading while white has allowed to skip over a lot of things I said.
LikeLike
And abagond I will not be offended by any of the statements you feel you may have to delete.
LikeLike
I think I might actually be a fan of Nathan Lean. He exposes 11 lies that have been peddled about Muslims. Unfortunately he says the right when the truth is the it is the islamphobes period.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-lean/11-lies-about-muslims_b_1891078.html
Too bad this goes over most islamophobes head. Oddly enough there is mention of Richard Spencer and his hate campaign again.
LikeLike
Example of reading while white:
Several posts on how Islamophobes are not separating Muslim extremist from regular Muslims (with examples).
White person sees:
You are calling me islamophobe. That is a way to shut me up. You are just a muslin apologist. You don’t want any one to address brutality of muslims.
Moral of the story. White people simply shut down on registering anything if they see it as a direct attack of them. Especially if it gets to the heart of who they are. Hmmmm…..
LikeLike
@ George
This post was modelled on the Black crime argument that racists make on this blog all the time. They take an ordinary phenomenon – crime – and then highlight that done by a particular group, Blacks, as if it were a Black thing.
Ashraf is doing the same thing in this BBC piece. He calls it “Viewpoint: Confrontation key to tackling violent extremism” – yet every single example is violence carried out by Muslims.
He talks about ISIS beheadings of journalists, but not about the US bombing that led to it.
He talks about the massacre at a school in Peshawar, Pakistan, but not about the school in Pakistan that the US bombed.
Why only half the picture?
Instead of, say, seriously examining how US drone policy might increase Islamist extremism, he blames the extremism on a “lust for violence”, ” its inherent ignorance, its absence of humanity and its innate cowardice.” That is demonization, that is propaganda, not a serious attempt at understanding the world.
The Ashraf piece:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30600037
LikeLike
For some time now my focus has been on Brigitte Gabriel. While loonwatch is not the best source of information, it did give me an idea of the many contradictions she makes in her speeches. Apparently she is an apologist for certain “terrorist” groups, but is not so keen on Muslims. Here are a few of her quotes.
“The difference, my friends, between Israel and the Arab world is the difference between civilization and barbarism. It’s the difference between good and evil [applause]…. this is what we’re witnessing in the Arabic world, They have no SOUL !, they are dead set on killing and destruction. And in the name of something they call “Allah” which is very different from the God we believe….[applause] because our God is the God of love.”
“It’s the duty of all moderate Muslims to speak against the hate, against the Jihad… the people in the West must support the moderates.”
“America and the West are doomed to failure in this war unless they stand up and identify the real enemy: Islam. You hear about Wahabbi and Salafi Islam as the only extreme form of Islam. All the other Muslims, supposedly, are wonderful moderates. Closer to the truth are the pictures of the irrational eruption of violence in reaction to the cartoons of Mohammed printed by a Danish newspaper…derived from one source: authentic Islam.”
“a practising Muslim who goes to mosque every Friday, prays five times a day, and who believes that the Koran is the word of God, and who believes that Mohammed is the perfect man and (four inaudible words) is a radical Muslim.”
As you can see this islamophobe contradicts herself. One minute she speaks on these moderate Musims and how she wants them to speak out against the Muslim extremist and the next she is lumping them all in one boat. I guess she ignores Muslims speaking out about the extremist. Just like certain whites ignore gun violence rallies by blacks.
LikeLike
http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/04/a-case-study-in-sincere-hypocrisy-brigitte-gabriel/
LikeLike
ROFL!!!
“i don’t think christians are more violent than muslims or vice versa, i’ve said this many many times throughout this thread.”
Caught in another lie.
“i don’t believe christians are more violent than muslims & i gave my reasons why.”
“i don’t think christians are more violent than muslims. but if there are christian extremist groups roaming the countryside, attacking schools & disrupting society on this level i’d definitely like to know about it.”
Sorry could not help it.
LikeLike
Floods post with sources showing Muslims as being more violent.
” I wait for people to prove their true nature and when they show it to me I tend to believe them.”—-Needed repeating.
LikeLike
Bye George and a Happy new year.
My god bless your little heart. 🙂
LikeLike
“i believe islamic states have more problems when it comes to extremist terrorist groups. i’ve state this quite clearly many times.”—Since it is a matter of a mere misunderstanding then please quote where you have claimed this prior to this very moment.
LikeLike
Well in that case the problem is solved by two means.
1. I did a search on the thread to find where you said “i don’t believe christians are more violent than muslims or vice versa.” What I came up with were the quotes I presented in which I also provide links for easy reference. I went further by quoting in the entirety so the context of the matter van be taken into account.
2. You refuse to show where you claim this even though it seems to have been claimed several times by your account.
Thank you again.
Good day
LikeLike
@ George @ Sharina
I deleted some comments that seemed to be more about each other than the thread topic.
LikeLike
I accept you decision abagond.
LikeLike
George
Yes, I know what vice versa means. I also know how to look for similar language in posts to what you are trying to claim. I am equally verse in knowing when someone is trying to pull the wool over another’s eyes. It is all good. I ain’t mad at you, but I will no longer engage you under those standards.
LikeLike
What you attempted to do was claim that my “supposed” misunderstanding was the reason I glossed over you claiming “i don’t believe christians are more violent than muslims or vice versa”.
You never said it so we have nothing to agree on. I provided my links and will provide again in the end of this response.
Another reason why I know that is not your claim and not your intention to claim was because in the beginning of this debate I made the claim that Muslim extremist and Christian extremist are the same. You did not agree with me but argued with me and provided sources to your claim that they were more violent with captions on your thoughts of how it is an everyday thing. So can you explain to me how you agree with me on such a matter yet your follow ups are you disputing me and you proudly claiming how you disputed my points? I will wait.
“i don’t want anyone assuming i think muslims are more violent than christians or vice versa”—The difference between assuming and truth is this post is flooded with proof.
LikeLike
“you either don’t remember or you are outright lying.”—The problem with this statement is I kindly asked you to direct me to the very post where you made the claim “i don’t believe Christians are more violent than muslims or vice versa” even after I provided my proof.
Your retort is as follows:
“i don’t know why i even did you the favor of explaining myself AGAIN, the burden of proof is on the accuser anyways…”
“if you are going to accuse me of holding this opinion you need proof to back it up.”
“i’ve said several times i don’t believe christians are more violent than muslims or vice versa. that should sufficiently prove i’m not saying muslims are worse people than christians.”
Now seeing as you are now making the claim that I am lying it would actual require you provide proof of such, but I know how this will go because in doing so will expose that you never made the claim to begin with. So if you want to continue to be dishonest then there is certainly nothing else left to say.
LikeLike
Using Abagond as an scapegoat is a bit rude. He did not start deleting posts until You and I became off topic. Prior to that your posts nor mine were not deleted at all. What you in turn will do is find yourself trying to wiggle out of yet another lie.
Abagond clearly announced when he would delete a comment and why. Did he not? If you made that statement several times (per your words) and he deleted all those statements then that shows you were personally attacking me in all those statements for them to be deleted.
SMH* Shrugs*
LikeLike
Please feel free to focus your continued remarks on the topic and no longer on me.
LikeLike
@George
Then I applaud you for finding 1 post that states “i don’t think christians are more violent than muslims, or vice versa.” Several days after I already made the claim that Christians and Muslim extremist are the same. and all in and effort to prove you are not islamophobic. *applause* 🙂
LikeLike
“i know you desperately want to frame me as someone who thinks muslims are worse people than christians, but i don’t believe that one bit.”—The proof is always in the pudding. “the fact that Christian terrorism so easily swept under the rug should tell you something. Christian terrorism is not a clear & present danger to our society or any society for that matter, it’s easily dismissed because it’s not a major threat.
certain things are impossible to sweep under the rug & cannot be ignored. i could give you a laundry list of examples but a few that come to mind are flying planes into buildings, blowing up marathons, kidnapping people, video taping executions for propaganda, massacring schools, & destabilizing society in general.”
As i said please direct your comments to the thread and not me. The dishonesty is suffocating.
LikeLike
George
You do realize that 1 quote showing you said something does not mean you have not lied otherwise? It does not make other accusations false. It means you actual need to find proof that those others are not true and that is a bit hard when you own words are being quoted.
So what next? Want some cookie or something? I already said congrats.
LikeLike
Get back to me when you are ready to address all you dishonesty. In the mean time please take your time to savour your one successful resolution.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
How is it you found out the events that lead up to those Muslim attacks? Where they on some news source or is there another back source you may have used to find that information?
LikeLike
were not where*
LikeLike
There is a tv show called “Little Mosque” It actually is a really good depictions of Muslims and their interactions with people in society. I actually wonder how true to reality it really is.
LikeLike
@ Sharina @ George
More deletions…
LikeLike
@ Sharina
It comes from reading about drones and ISIS.
LikeLike
So the U.S. creates terrorist and then the media Islamophobes push the Muslim fear to gain public approval in the attack and overthrow of certain countries.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/11/us-we-initiate-terrorism-to-create-terrorists-to-overthrow-governments.html
LikeLike
I finally checked out the Southern Poverty site and was very surprised that it was more detailed on extremist thanot the FBT could dream of being. Ithe is amazing the number of groups (and growing) that are actually sitting under the government’should nose. So much for that war on terror.
Even more noticeable is Robert Spencer is on the list of anti-Muslim individuals. The idea that he is not Islamophobic is a false one at this point. The worse part is of the other islamophobes/ Anti-Muslim is all of them are in positions that influnch the thought process of the masses. This is where the average Islamophobia gets their talking poibts. These individuals are the very same that talk of criticizing islam, but in reality they are teaching fear and hate.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-files/profiles
LikeLike
“i’ve asked this question a few times but no one seems to be interested in answering.”—–I can tell you several reasons why but you won’t like the answer so I will move on.
LikeLike
A “Christian war” is a war motivated by the principles of Christianity, and a “Muslim war” is a war motivated by the principles of Islam. If one or more of a war’s belligerents is a predominantly Christian nation, that is not sufficient to label it a “Christian war”; and if one or more of a war’s belligerents is a predominantly Muslim nation, that is not sufficient to label it a “Muslim war.”
Given that Jesus Christ reportedly said one of the two greatest commandments is “Love your neighbor as yourself,” it is incorrect to call any war a “Christian war.” The fundamental principles of the religion simply don’t support it.
Mohammed and his successors (a.k.a. “caliphs”) personally led many brutal military conquests, so the concept of a “Muslim war” is more feasible. The concept of “holy war” has no counterpart in modern Christianity. While modern Christians regard the Crusades as having been ill-motivated, some modern Muslims desire to restore an Islamic Caliphate. As ISIS is currently demonstrating, the only way to attempt that is by waging war.
Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading.
Wikipedia has a nice summary of Hitler’s religious views:
So it would seem that calling Hitler “Christian” is both untrue and misleading true.
LikeLike
D.P.
“Given that Jesus Christ reportedly said one of the two greatest commandments is “Love your neighbor as yourself,” it is incorrect to call any war a “Christian war.” The fundamental principles of the religion simply don’t support it.”—I don’t disagree, but let us not forget that Jesus’s voice is not the only voice of authority in Christianity. We often forget the voice of god found in Old testament. Ignoring the select parts of the religion does not mean the religion never said or believed that at one time. People even use much from the old testament to excuse hatred and violent acts today.
“As ISIS is currently demonstrating, the only way to attempt that is by waging war.”—So here is a question. Because a person practices a religion does that make them a candidate for waging a “holy war”? Is government and political warfare considered “holy wars”? What marks the difference?
“So it would seem that calling Hitler “Christian” is both untrue and misleading true.”—The point of the quote was actually stated to illustrate the misleading nature of both Hitler and the 9/11 terrorist.
LikeLike
@ DP
To General Gerhard Engel, Adolf Hitler stated in 1941, “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” Quoted in the biography of Hitler by John Toland, Adolf Hitler (1992), p. 507.
LikeLike
Hitler practiced a kind of syncretism. He could be both Catholic and non-Christian in the furtherance of his agenda.
“I do further promise and declare that, notwithstanding, I am dispensed with to assume any religion heretical for the propagation of the Mother Church’s interest; to keep secret and private all her agents’ counsels from time to time, as they entrust me, and not to divulge, directly or indirectly, by word, writing or circumstances whatever; but to execute all that should be proposed, given in charge, or discovered unto me by you, my Ghostly Father…”
LikeLike
Nice quote Abagond.
LikeLike
Well King I can’t say you don’t know how to make an entrance. 🙂
LikeLike
@ DP @ George
Just as there are tons of Christians who do not see Hitler as a true Christian, so there are tons of Muslims who do not see ISIS or the 9/11 terrorists as true Muslims. Islam does not condone the slaughter of defenceless people.
Jesus was a peacenik, but in the Old Testament God gives a green light to genocide. This was not lost on the Puritans, who also saw themselves as the Chosen Ones in a Promised Land.
Popes gave the green light to several Crusades, like the first one, which seems to have been the bloodiest.
The US, widely seen as a Christian nation, gives the green light to the repeated bombing of civilians in Gaza.
Islam does in fact have a doctrine of holy war, jihad, but the likes of ISIS, al-Qaeda and suicide bombers do not fall under it:
If we count mass slaughter carried out by the followers of either religion, Christians lead hands down, as shown in the post. It is not even close. But Christians are not Christianophobes (a word that does not even exist in my spell checker) because that kind of prejudiced thinking is only applied to out-groups, not to the in-group. The Ashraf piece for the BBC is a good example, showing us only half the picture.
LikeLike
@ George
And these principles of Islam are what exactly?
LikeLike
I noticed that IQ test play a big role in the US. Not only among racists, but in the general discussion about education. That is very different from Germany and always baffles me. Does anybody know how important they are in other countries?
LikeLike
sorry wrong thread
LikeLike
@Kartoffel
I am interested in hearing more. Please let me know the thread you wish to elaborate on.
LikeLike
@ George
Jihad does not apply to what the 9/11 terrorists did any more than Christian principles applied to what Hitler did. That is my point. Calling one sort of violence “Muslim” but not calling the other sort “Christian” is prejudiced thinking, a double standard.
Most Christians understand that their religion does not begin to excuse what Hitler or the conquistadors have done.
Likewise, most Muslims understand that their religion does not begin to excuse what ISIS or al-Qaeda have done.
LikeLike
@abagond
“Jihad does not apply to what the 9/11 terrorists did any more than Christian principles applied to what Hitler did. That is my point. Calling one sort of violence “Muslim” but not calling the other sort “Christian” is prejudiced thinking, a double standard.”—Yet this was crystal clear to other readers.
It also highlight another things I pointed out. Said individual is using “islamic principles”( minus sources) to show them as worse than Christians or more violent than christian principles.
Here is a few links on Islamic Principles:
http://www.missionislam.com/discover/basic.htm
http://www.wikiz.info/islam/principles/Principles.htm
I have not read them yet but may comment once I know more.
LikeLike
Darn those intolerance of Muslim and Christians trying to work together in their countries.
http://sunnewsonline.com/new/?p=97105
I rebuke you extremist.
LikeLike
I think if it were not Muslims it would be Jews or some other religious boogeyman. It is likely only Muslims because they are the main religious group in the middle east.
You would think at some point America would leave them alone and let them deal with their own problems/problems created by US, but no. The states have to flex their westernization of everyone and everything.
LikeLike
There are extremist in both When an abortion clinic is blown up this is a form of extremism, they don’t represent the true Body of Christ nor his teachings. The horror that happened in France today with the cartoonist being murdered that would be unfair to paint all Muslims because of the actions of these extremist.
LikeLike
@Mary Burrell
“The horror that happened in France today with the cartoonist being murdered that would be unfair to paint all Muslims because of the actions of these extremist.”—Wow. I had not heard of that at all. Thanks for sharing.
LikeLike
@ Mary
Do you know if they caught them? I see where it says they identified them, but was wondering if you have better (more) information than I do.
LikeLike
@shirinalr; I came home from work and flip the television on and i saw the footage of these two guys shooting and all this pandemonium. They got in a vehicle and drove off. i don’t think they have been apprehended. I just kept thinking how senseless this was. They were angry at the French cartoonist for using images of Allah in their satire. I guess this is considered blasphemy. It was quite disturbing.
LikeLike
@Mary Burrell
Yes, I agree. It was very senseless. I really hope they catch them and bring them to trial.
LikeLike
How can you call both world wars “Christian Wars” when they were not fought in the name of Christianity and included people of many different faiths?
You’re obviously twisting words to make your own point.
Also, http://carm.org/religion-cause-war
LikeLike
@JJ
Nice source but it does not disprove the wars listed as being christian or non-christian wars. It just says religion was not the primary cause of war. Also I believe the post was to display the double standards. I could be wrong, but I believe it was mentioned in the comment section. *shrugs*
LikeLike
@ JJ
And what is the point that I am trying to make?
LikeLike
@abagond
Want to wager the question get’s avoided like the plague? LOL
LikeLike
^^^Want to bet how long I can ignore you while you still attempt to respond to me?
LikeLike
^^^^Since I have been ignoring you since I said bye yesterday, then the odds of you winning that bet are slim. Of course there is no problem for me going longer as it is no problem for you to still need to respond to me.
LikeLike
needing*
LikeLike
In other news, it amazes me that Islam ideology is taught and interpreted by people who do not practice said religion. I have yet to run across someone who is Muslim and is speaking on the religion. So far second hand voices of what it means and stands for.
Take this guy for example:
http://www.politicalislam.com/measuring-extremism/
LikeLike
@ Sharina
Yeah, not holding my breath.
LikeLike
@ George
Same question I asked JJ: What is the point I am trying to make in the post?
LikeLike
Yikes!!! A complete misapplication of the term confirmation bias or shall I say a straw man in the works?
LikeLike
I know I posted this in the open thread already but in light of the recent Charlie Hebdo terrorist attack & the fact that this thread seems to lend itself to the issue I have to speak on it further;
http://news.sky.com/story/1402805/german-anti-islam-rally-hits-record-number
I’m sorry but a country like Germany HAS to know better than this already. The terrorist attacks in neighboring France have most likely added fuel to these protests & for the anti-islam crowd “proof” that Muslims as a whole are violent. People in the Western world constantly complain of Muslims not assimilating but they’re harassed & other-ized so often I can’t really blame them. If the general populace of your community is hostile & averse to you, you would lock into & embrace what you already had as well.
RIP to Charlie Hebdo & all others who were victims in the attack.
LikeLike
“even if i’m wrong about my use of the term confirmation bias that’s besides the point. you’re just cherry picking & instigating & i expected that.”—-You are completely wrong about what confirmation bias is, but it is not cherry picking if I chose to address it versus addressing what you claim abagond is arguing.
Cherry picking is a fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy)) much like confirmation bias in which said individual points to data and individual cases that confirms their position. That is equivalent to what you did with the Muslims attacks minus the whole story above. 🙂
“nd you lost that bet as i expected, you just can’t help yourself.”—Unfortunately there was never a bet in place. I simply asked if you would like to bet. I never agreed to one or set a time period that I would ignore you. I just went on to ignore you, which technically I would have won with no time set in place. Besides a bet can not take place if you can’t determine the difference between me ignoring you and me talking to you. I could respond to the general pop about anything and you think it is you, because a hit dog will holler.
“i think i answered Abagond’s question. But you want to focus on my use of the term confirmation bias. now that’s a straw man if i ever seen one!”—Sorry dear but a straw man would require something be argued that was never said or a misrepresentation of your said argument. You did try to attribute your idea of abagond’s claim as being confirmation bias and it was a misuse of the term. Me choosing to respond to it does not equate to a straw man.
“you should just stop addressing me, you’re making a fool of yourself.”—Considering that you not only misused three terms (straw man, confirmation bias, and cherry picking) and put a bet in place that you technically lost I think it is clear that you are the only fool here. 🙂
LikeLike
@ A
From what I have been reading Germany is really big on Anti-Muslim stuff.
“The terrorist attacks in neighboring France have most likely added fuel to these protests & for the anti-islam crowd “proof” that Muslims as a whole are violent. “—I agree.
I wonder how much more Muslims have to assimilate. They throw away a lot just to fit in. Western civilization basically wants them to throw away a great deal of their religion just to be acceptable. This includes no longer covering their head. Mormons on the other hand are applauded for still managing to be modest in spite of fashion changes, but Muslims demonized?
LikeLike
“too many red herrings & set traps in your response, i’m not falling for it.”—You are like a 8 year old with a dictionary. So many big words and not a clue how to use them.
“later on skirt. you’re the only hollering dog around here”—Awww signs of hurt feelings. boo hoo.ROFL
LikeLike
“a “red herring” argument is one which distracts the audience from the issue in question through the introduction of some irrelevancy.”—Now let us apply it to the situation with examples.
Example 1: Mother: It’s bedtime Jane
Jane: Mom, how do ants feed their babies?
Mother: Don’t know dear. Close your eyes now.
Jane: But mama, do ant babies cry when hungry?
You mentioned confirmation bias, so are you saying you used a red herring to distract from a possible mis-claim of what abagond is arguing in the post? So what everything you wrote a distraction? Because I responded to everything you said dear not something besides the point. 🙂
LikeLike
As to Abagond question, I think it is fair and wise to allow him to address what the point of his post is or is not. Everyone else may be guessing. At any rate…..
later tater.
@ A
I hope you will share a bit more on your views of Muslims and your experiences if you have any to share.
LikeLike
I will post this here and comment later, but on topics of Muslims it is only right to get it from their view point .
http://www.islamswomen.com/articles/do_muslim_women_have_rights.php
LikeLike
This page is idiotic. You people have no idea what you’re talking about. I can’t believe I actually wasted time reading some of this bs.
Goodbye.
LikeLike
^^^smh
LikeLike
Is there a thin line between terrorist and random crazy person or is society now viewing them as one in the same? To me the Charles situation involved 3 crazy individuals which I hope they catch soon. On the other hand I have seen people label the guy that killed the 2 NYPD police officers as terrorist too. So it becomes a matter of what is the determining factor to separate the two.
Now another topic of interest for me I wish to quote from the source I provided earlier.
“On the question of attire, the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet did not say women must adopt a particular dress of a particular country. It only gives basic boundaries, and for a committed Muslim woman, she doesn’t follow this simply because her father or husband tells her, but because Allah already stated that as a requirement in the Quran, and was explained through revelation given to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) that this was not to restrict woman, but to provide a virtuous society where sexual attraction is not the main obsession of everyone. This forces everyone to respect the woman for what she is as a human being, as an intellectual and a spiritual being, rather than being diverted to her sexuality.”—This speaks on the idea of attire for women.
“There are fair and honorable people in the media who are receptive to correction of inaccuracies, and who present the facts, when the facts become manifest, as we have seen in the coverage of the barbaric and cruel treatment of the Palestinians n the Occupied Territories. What I would suggest to the media is instead of depending on the distorted information about Islam, they should keep in touch with educated Muslims, and remember, the U.S. has between 5 and 6 million Muslims. Only through correct representation and open communication with Muslims in America can the media give a fair analysis of current events, given the background of those conflicts, and provide a great service to society.”—-Great advice to the media. Too bad they will never follow it as they give in to their islamophobic behaviors.
LikeLike
^^^^Thumbs up*
LikeLike
The lady at Islam’s women goes on to note that the issue is not just media though and can not simply be blamed on them, although I believe they deserve a big chunk of it. She states “The problems presented here are not the problems of Islam. They are problems of a lack of commitment, lack of application, or misapplication of Islamic teachings by Muslims themselves.”
Muslims misapply the principles in said religion at times. The misapplication could be a result of trying to conform to the growing changes in society. For example less clothes is the fashion trend these days. As such pressure could be on keeping their girls modest by imposing more rules on what to wear.
LikeLike
So I decided to do further research and found “In most Muslim countries women are allowed to drive.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam
So the question becomes are the rights and freedoms more what western culture feels Muslims should have? or Are they rights that Muslims want? So far it feels as if they are rights that westernized civilization believes that they want or should want.
Now this is not to say beating, rape, and murder should go unchallenged but complaints such as attire, going out with husband, etc. those seem to be the majority arguments.
LikeLike
Finally an article that asks Muslims what they think. Wish the hard questions had been asked, but Muslim women are more in favor of traditional wear than men.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/05/what-muslims-around-the-world-think-about-womens-rights-in-charts/275450/
LikeLike
“Although there is a Muslim feminism, Muslim and Western feminists’ points of view are very different, and those outside of Islamic culture often make incorrect assumptions about what Muslim women want or need.”—-Very true.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/openglobalrights/xaviera-medina/what-do-muslim-women-want-finding-women’s-rights-in-islam
LikeLike
Deleted some comments by Sharina and George Ryder that were little more than name calling.
LikeLike
While viewing MHP on MSNBC there was and interesting point was bought up on the Charlie Hebdo tragedy about the radicalized Muslims verses the Muslims who are peaceful. Most radicalization ideology starts in prison environment instead of getting taught in the mosque. Islam is supposed to be a religion of peace. I will be honest what i know about Islam would fit a postage stamp. But i have respect for the cartoonist and they are not being cowed down by the terrorist and they are still speaking with their pens and drawing. The terrorist still didn’t win in my opinion. But this is what causes phobia. All the peaceful Muslims will be lumped in with the violent ones. This is fear will produce ignorance. Just my thoughts.
LikeLike
@Abagond
I accept it.
@Mary
I was not aware the radicalized part was taught in prison. Thank you for sharing that. I also agree that peaceful Muslims will be lumped in with the radicals.
LikeLike
@ sharinalr; About the radicalized extremist being taught in prison, i heard the panelist make this statement it makes sense. I don’t know if this is the case of all of them. The discourse on MHP (Melissa Harris Perry) gave a little insight about how some of them get started. I am sure they get indoctrinated in other ways. They went on to talk about how in Paris there is huge unemployment there. Much of the Muslim community comes from Africa and Middle East and they live in the ghettos. So imagine that there are lots of poor folks with no jobs and being unproductive. And in Paris if one is not considered French they are not treated very well. So there is lots of marginalization there. So it’s just a hotbed for this sort of thing to get started. Poor people with no jobs being treated badly. There is also lots of anti- semeticism there as well. There is lots of racism in the city of lights.
LikeLike
I don’t condone what those extremist did but a point one of the panelist made she was a Muslim woman. She said she didn’t condone what the terrorist did but they were mocking her faith. That is wrong to mock people’s spiritual beliefs,
LikeLike
The cartoonist were mocking the Muslim faith but i don’t think that the peaceful and moderate Muslims would respond with violence. At least that’s what the Muslim woman on the panel during the discussion on MHP brought forth.
LikeLike
@ George
Oh yes. Let’s judge over a billion Muslims based on the actions of three men. But let’s NOT judge Christians based on the actions of their drone lord leaders.
LikeLike
@ George
Islam, probably like every other world religion, does not condone the slaughter of unarmed civilians.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
“Islam, probably like every other world religion, does not condone the slaughter of unarmed civilians.”
I think any religion can be transformed into a political ideology that then can justify violence. But it seems to me, that Islam is more easily transformed in that way then Christianity. At least in the present there is little threat from people who want to transform public order into some sort of “Christian” state, except if you want to count Putin as such.
LikeLike
@ Kartoffel
If it were something inherent to Islam we would be seeing it all throughout history, not just the past 30 years or so.
Historically speaking, Christians have been far more violent than Muslims. Christianity was used to excuse both genocide and slavery. It did not quite work, so now we have racism.
What we are seeing now in the Muslim world comes partly from the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia and Iran, partly from the US’s need for a new enemy after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Terms like “Western values” and, George’s favourite, “ideology”, are repurposed from the Cold War.
LikeLike
“If it were something inherent to Islam we would be seeing it all throughout history, not just the past 30 years or so.”
We do see it throughout history. Movements to reestablish the imagined muslim society pop up regularly in islamic history. The difference to other religions is that these renewal movements don’t only aim at theology or religious institutions, but at society in general. This at least is my impression. One would have to study all these movements to prove it.
“What we are seeing now in the Muslim world comes partly from the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia and Iran, partly from the US’s need for a new enemy after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Terms like “Western values” and, George’s favourite, “ideology”, are repurposed from the Cold War.”
All these things certainly factor into the phenomenon. But these aren’t direct causes. Nothing causes somebody to be a communist. They are just convinced that it would be a good idea to order society in that way. So does an islamist. Now there might be reasons why somebody is likely to believe that, some caused by the West. But at the end of the day everyone chooses himself, what ideology to follow.
LikeLike
@Mary
I think it is good they asked a Muslim woman what she thinks versus some random chick that spent 1 week around Muslims. It is too much speculation on their ideals and the individual ends up wrong. I agree that a hotbed is created from the conditions.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
Didn’t you know? Long as it is not on Western soil it does not count.
LikeLike
Kartoffel
“But it seems to me, that Islam is more easily transformed in that way then Christianity.”—–I don’t think it is more easy for Muslims. I just think the media focuses on it creating the idea and fear that it does. There is a big sect of Mormon religion that is ordered in a manner comparable to Muslim extremist, but they stay off the grid in the USA.
LikeLike
@ twobells
Your comment is in moderation because it looks as plagiarized as heck.
LikeLike
I think two bells summed it pretty tightly and also touched on many issues concerning, Islamic Jihad.
There is nothing wrong with the Muslim religion itself but this “tit for tat” game has been going on for a looong time.
Just like with Christianity, the problem is how people who practice the religion chooses to Interpret it to suite their needs.
Islamic “Jihad” is nothing new, and just like Christianity has been used as a “weapon” to seek and destroy in the name of God (Allah)
Because what is Jihad: a “holy war” or struggle against unbelievers.
Both Muslims and Christians have waged war on groups of people they have called “unbelievers”
Both Religions have shaped and transformed 5 continents in the world’s history in the last 1000 years: Africa, Asia, Europe, and North/South America
The “hatred” of Muslim/Islam drove the Spanish to “reclaim” Spain and to proceed to eliminate anyone with Islamic or “Semetic” ties, hence mass slaughter and exodus of both Muslims and Jews.
The Christians won the war against Islam in the 1400s, so
This hatred and the desire to see that “Christianity” proliferates, is what kicked off the quest to build a colony in the “new World”,
and the Europeans, in the name of Jesus Christ, Mary, and God — proceeded to enslave and slaughter millions of “Godless” Native Americans and “Godless or Muslim” Africans and began the Atlantic Slave Trade from Africa.
LikeLike
The Muslims, who were deported back to North Africa from Europe, did not take their expulsion sitting down.
They proceeded to raid and enslave Europeans in what is called the “Barbary Slave Trade” (with the permission and blessing of the Turks/Ottomans)
and this opened the door for both European and American invasion into Africa.
(this is how the USA got their motto that they would not pay ransom for hostages)
Thomas Jefferson: “in Paying tribute will merely invite more demands, and even if a coalition proves workable, the only solution is a strong navy that can reach the pirates, Jefferson argued in an August 18, 1786, letter to James Monroe: “The states must see the rod; perhaps it must be felt by some one of them
When Jefferson became president in 1801 he refused to accede to Tripoli’s demands for an immediate payment of $225,000 and an annual payment of $25,000. The pasha of Tripoli then declared war on the United States.”
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/jefferson_papers/mtjprece.html
The Europeans and Americans retaliated by attacking North Africa, opening the door for the Europeans to occupy and begin the Colonization of nearly the entire Continent of Africa.
allowing them to realize the dream of controlling the African Gold mines, and taking the trade away from the Muslims.
and in the Name of Jesus Christ, Mary, and God — Christian missionaries wre unleashed and proceeded to begin the “conversion” of those Heathen Africans
and teach them the value of “hard work” and punishment for disobeying God. (Lessons were held in the Gold, Diamond, and mineral mines)
the Belgians taught about 10 million Africans of the Congo, that disobedience of God’s will leads to death and lost limbs.
Europe got rich beyond belief— thanks to their Christian “Jihad” and followed the money trail right into Asia.
and Christian missionaries went to the Pacific Islands on mass to continue educating those Heathens as well.
The British and French occupied, divided, and restructure Africa and the Middle East — and the native people of these regions have been fighting to put it back to it’s old borders before the European “Jihad”
Both Christians and Muslims have used “God” as a reason to perform, practice and endorse “Jihad” against anyone they chose to impose their will upon.
This is the same dance, different year — it has never stopped.
LikeLike
@ twobells
Comment deleted due to plagiarism.
LikeLike
Except who are “calling” Christian? I wonder if you compared deeply committed relgious Christians vs. Deeply committed religious Muslims whar the differences would be?
LikeLike
However, what exactly IS a Christian? There are many in so-called Christian Countries, probaby the majority in most, who don’t even call themseves Christians. And of those who do, how many have professed with their lips in front of witnesses that their heart and soul belongs to Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus did teach violence at all. In fact He taught us to turn the other cheek. So its pretty certain that those who preach a life of violence are, literally and by definition, not Christians at all!
LikeLike
@Linda
Very eloquently put.
LikeLike
@Skip
The problem is that many forget that God was the voice in he bible throughout the old testament. Jesus’s is the New testament. Most people like to focus and point to the new testament as “see it teaches peace” while ignoring that the bible did not always teach as such.
There is a clear double standard.
LikeLike
@sharinair
“The problem is that many forget that God was the voice in he bible throughout the old testament. Jesus’s is the New testament. Most people like to focus and point to the new testament as “see it teaches peace” while ignoring that the bible did not always teach as such.
There is a clear double standard.”
That’s because there has always been tension in Christianity between the Old and New Testaments — if Paul of Tarsus had not come on the scene and said “all of that old Testament stuff doesn’t matter; rather, all that matters is seeking salvation through faith in Christ”, Christianity would have probably remained an obscure Jewish sect and faded into obscurity. Simultaneously, without the credibility afforded by association with deep antiquity (a quality highly valued in the ancient world), Christianity would probably have not become widely accepted in the Roman empire. (This is just one possible reason among many contributing factos, mind you…)
So, even though Paul won the argument with Peter over whether or not salvation is realized through faith versus strict adherence to Jewish law, tensions (and thus contradiction and confusion) remain to this day.
LikeLike
correction: I just realized I spoke anacronistically with respect to the New Testament… it of course did not exist in it’s current form in Paul and Peter’s day. Please mind that I was referring to the spirit and tone of the times that led to said tensions in proto-Orthodox and eventually Orthodox Christianity.
LikeLike
@ Skip
Just as most Christians seem to understand that the Spanish conquistadors were perverting religion for their own ends, so likewise do most Muslim seem to regard the likes of ISIS or the Charlie Hebdo killers.
LikeLike
masterblasterofdisaster
Thanks. I what you are saying.
LikeLike
@ George
The analogy does not depend on how long ago the events took place.
LikeLike
“You are comparing something that happened 500 years ago to Islamic extremism that is happening in the world today.”—If you full understood her point you would know she is not comparing to begin with. She is stating that Christians understood then that the Spanish perverted the religion in the same manner that most Muslims realize that extremist are perverting it. Based on stats and research this is true. A good deal of Muslims do not support extremism.
You don’t have to March as a society of 3million to oppose something. Making that a criteria for opposing is a ridiculous argument to begin with. Muslim leaders have opposed it publicly.
@everyone
As a side note this retort is similar to one a guy made about blacks not marching to oppose black on black crime, but will March for a thug. I decided to post a link of gang violence and black on black crime rallies. The retort was “not on the same scale.” Why does magnitude matter so much when they are trying to argue they don’t care at all?
LikeLike
@ George
Most of the people currently fighting the Taliban and ISIS are Muslim.
LikeLike
@ George
You were wondering why Muslims are not opposing extremists like the French with their protest of 3 million. My point is that they doing more than protesting – they are fighting them.
LikeLike
@ George
How nice of you to look down your White nose at them as if the US had nothing to do with creating the mess. Bravo.
LikeLike
What do you mean by ” …rise in the importance of race in the West?” Over what timespan and in what way?
LikeLike
@ Kiwi
Right. Christianity has not “evolved”. It has decayed. Certainly by the standards of 1100, and even by the minimal standards of 1900. The moral fervour that many Whites in the US had in the 1850s is unthinkable now. The wealth and power of the West has corrupted it and made it morally blind. Racism is a piece of that moral blindness.
LikeLike
In short the islamic countries need to be like the west. It does not matter if they fight extremist or if they openly denounce them. What matter is that they organize a 3 million man protest against it. LOL
LikeLike
I am still wondering where the protest and outrage from Christians was when a white dude ran over a “Muslim looking” kid who turned out to be Christian.
http://www.inquisitr.com/1659260/deadly-hate-crime-in-missouri-muslim-teen-run-over-and-killed-by-muslim-hating-man-in-kansas-city/
LikeLike
I am still wondering where the protest and outrage from Christians was when 15 mosques were attacked in France in the three days after the attack on Charlie Hebdo:
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/10/7524731/french-muslims-attacks-charlie-hebdo
LikeLike
@ George
1100 was right after the First Crusade. It was at a turning point. It has been downhill ever since.
LikeLike
Per abagond’s link
“But these incidents point to a long-worsening trend of hostility in France toward the country’s Muslim minority, which makes up an estimated eight to 10 percent of the population, and a sense among French Muslims that they are not welcome.”—So basically they have been harrassing the Muslims for sometime.
Are the three men actually Muslims or just three men trying to stir the pot?
LikeLike
“people don’t typically give up their lives to simply stir the pot.”—Typically does not mean they don’t do it.
LikeLike
At any rate this link is very telling on the bias in American society and how they view Muslims vs Christians.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/fri-more-americans-say-muslim-extremists-are-true-muslims-than-christian-extremists-are-true-christians-132303/
LikeLike
@ Sharina
Great link! Just the sort of double standard that I am talking about.
@ George
I would prefer Christians of 1100 to the current ones.
LikeLike
Im pretty sure the wars that most of the wars that are listed were wars that europeans and americans fought , not to do with the christian faith. Listing wars that have nothing to do with religion, and putting them on the christian side is no way to help your case, it just shows you arent well informed or you arent confident that your arguement is well supported with the actual numbers, therefore you present false data to try and cover up.
The bible verses that condone killing are meant for war, not unnecessary war. one of the ten commandments “you shall not kill” does not necessarily mean do not go to war for protection. The hebrew word for kill actually means murder, as in the killing of an innocent . If you look back in the bible, they fought wars against those who were oppressive, not the small country who had a piece of land that christians wanted. Still, the crusades were not the right idea.
In the quran/koran, it also says to keep fighting for self defense, but look at 9/11, ISIS, Al Qaeda, recently the Charlie Hebdo incident, and other muslim extremist groups. This is not to says that every muslim is going to blow up a building, many, if not most are peaceful, but the underlying fact is that today, there seems to be more muslims than christians that are misinterpreting or ignoring what their book says about killing.
LikeLike
@Sam
I am sorry but there are plenty of bible versus that have little or nothing to do with war. Just killing. I will post when time permits.
“but the underlying fact is that today, there seems to be more muslims than christians that are misinterpreting or ignoring what their book says about killing.”—-Do you have the numbers to support this idea or is it based on what the media is willing to support? I have found quite a few cases where Christians today are forming militia and attacking Muslims. It seems to be a back and forth between Muslims and Christians. The major difference is one you can’t even get on the news.
LikeLike
Re: my previous comment, what an odd thing to suggest…plagiarism? my CITATIONS referred to expert opinion on the issue which you chose to remove I think the community can take from that what they will, I know I do. In closing, I am sure that the position taken in the article rebuttal has nothing to do with it’s removal.
LikeLike
I agree that Christianity (at least Catholicism) has evolved it’s stance on violence and a free and democtatic society. But that is not a development of the last 500 years but one of the last 100. A few months ago i said on this thread that the last example for clear church-supported war was the Spanish Civil War. There Catholics literally fought a crusade. It is also very interesting and telling that the idea that Islam isn’t compatible with a free society sounds very similar to the things that were said about Catholicism in the US a century ago.
To demand from muslims that they renounce the Islamists is nonsense. Nothing of the sort is ever demanded from Christians in regards to abortion-clinic bombers and the like. That clearly is a double-standard. On the other hand to say that Islamism “has nothing to do with Islam” is also nonsense. The ISIS fighters are muslims just as much as the french cop that was murdered in Paris. Also there aren’t two clearly seperated groups of muslims, one moderate and completly opposed to the extremists and the violent Islamists. It’s a continuum where many don’t support ISIS and comparable groups, but may be in favour of executing apostates. This support group of the Islamists are the real danger. How their influence can be litmited I don’t know, but one factor certainly is that the moderate muslims stand up to them (what many do and is something that should be applauded).
LikeLike
@ twobells
Wow. You plagiarize and then have the nerve to say that I am the one arguing in bad faith.
As a plagiarist you are banned.
LikeLike
@ Sam
Interesting that you can see what is wrong with a Christianophobic argument – but then in the next breath make an Islamophobic one.
LikeLike
@ George @ Kiwi
1100 was a round number. 1050 would be better. The point being, it was before they became corrupted by the Crusades (1095-1291). Religion was used as an excuse for conquest, for holy war, which created a terrible moral hazard that did not turn out well. In the case of the Spanish it led to the rise of the conquistadors, genocide, slavery and present-day racism.
LikeLike
Kartoffel
“How their influence can be litmited I don’t know, but one factor certainly is that the moderate muslims stand up to them (what many do and is something that should be applauded).”— I agree, but the issue I have see with Americans is in one breath they will say “good for you guys standing up” and in another “you guys should stand up more.” They can’t win for losing.
I think hat creates the idea that no matter what Americans will view them the same and eventually it festers anger and divide.
LikeLike
“I don’t know why everyone is focusing on France.”—I wager it is the exact same reason you focused on it.
Though we can all ignore these:
http://www.atheistrev.com/2012/07/africa-playground-for-christian.html
http://warpony2310.blogspot.com/2014/01/africa-christian-extremist-group-kill.html
*End sarcasm*
LikeLike
@ George
I deleted your comment.
Please do not call Sharina anything but her name. This is a warning. I have deleted more than enough of your childish comments. Next time I will simply ban you. I am not your babysitter.
LikeLike
To V-4:
The interesting thing to me isn’t that Hitler and the Nazi’s were christian.
Hitler and his crew did their best to co-opt and manipulate the dominant religion of Germany for their own purposes but many private statements by Hitler and his upper echelon indicate they were not Christian.
From wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
Historians such as Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree that Hitler was anti-Christian – a view evidenced by sources such as the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Speer, and the transcripts edited by Martin Bormann contained within Hitler’s Table Talk.[4] Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler “hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity.”[5] Many historians have come to the conclusion that Hitler’s long term aim was the eradication of Christianity in Germany,[6] while others maintain that there is insufficient evidence for such a plan.”
“Laurence Rees concludes that “Hitler’s relationship in public to Christianity – indeed his relationship to religion in general – was opportunistic. There is no evidence that Hitler himself, in his personal life, ever expressed any individual belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church”
“Christianity is an invention of sick brains,” Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.”
” Evans wrote that Hitler repeatedly stated that Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science, which in the long run could not “co-exist with religion”
From Hitler’s table talk:
“Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the Arab, the standard attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers, and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of purist chivalry. Then with the advent of Christianity, came the barbarians. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers—already you see the world had already fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing Christianity!—then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies the heroism and which opens up the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.”
“In the long run, National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together. [On a question from C. S., whether this antagonism might mean a war, the Fuehrer continued:] No, it does not mean a war. The ideal solution would be to leave the religions to devour themselves, without persecutions. But in that case we must not replace the Church by something equivalent. That would be terrifying! It goes without saying that the whole thing needs a lot of thought. Everything will occur in due time. . . . The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practises a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect. It was a world enlightened by the idea of tolerance. Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its key-note is intolerance. Without Christianity, we should not have had Islam. The Roman Empire, under Germanic influence, would have developed in the direction of world-domination, and humanity would not have extinguished fifteen centuries of civilisation at a single stroke. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. The result of the collapse of the Roman Empire was a night that lasted for centuries.”
LikeLike
To Sharina:
I am still wondering where the protest and outrage from Christians was when a white dude ran over a “Muslim looking” kid who turned out to be Christian.
http://www.inquisitr.com/1659260/deadly-hate-crime-in-missouri-muslim-teen-run-over-and-killed-by-muslim-hating-man-in-kansas-city/
A disgusting event, but the perpetrator, Ahmed H. Aden, was a Somalian immigrant with a name that is common for muslim men. (Ahmed, apparently it comes from the Koran..) Pretty clear he had anti-muslim feelings (and is probably a bit off..). I have read several claims that he is Christian convert (from Islam).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2862389/Kansas-City-teen-dies-targeted-hit-run.html
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
I can’t disagree with you there. I think anyone who allows such hate to consume them that they will kill is crazy.
Though the fear Is that “Muslim looking” and “Muslim names ” have gotten people killed. This is especially a problem when people give their children names they simply like or people emulate looks they like.
LikeLike
“I’m not allowed to call her by name. you made that rule too.”—You can quote things I say and address it as you have been.
As to the question you keep asking Abagond, he has already answered it here:
LikeLike
@ Sharina
Thank you.
LikeLike
@Abagond
You are welcome.
LikeLike
“the fact that you’d rather modern day Christians act more like Christians did during the Crusades .”—Actually that is not at all what he said and is also not an indication of what he meant in what you quoted of his. He stated clear as day pre-corruption by crusades.
LikeLike
^^^^He also stated clearly that 1100 was a round number. 1050 would be better.
LikeLike
“stop all that seriously, the grownups are speaking right now..”—-I know which is why I am confused on why you are in the conversation, but since you are I think it is best that it be discussed as an adult would and that requires you act as such.
He clarified what he meant in the statement I quoted. You are then trying to misrepresent what he says and trying to make him out to be something of a poor or lost sole simply because his opinions or thoughts do not go well with yours. What you quoted was several posts prior to him giving more details on his thoughts. If you don’t like the response then stop asking, but I can tell you clearly that after a while abagond does not respond to certain types.
LikeLike
Futhermore you are focusing on the crusades in which Abagond clearly stated
“1100 was a round number. 1050 would be better. The point being, it was before they became corrupted by the Crusades (1095-1291).”
So your argument can be thrown into a straw man pile. Good day. 🙂
LikeLike
“LOL. you’re actually backpedaling for Abagond, why?”—-A person can not backpedal for another person, but a person can bring in statements from another person to show when and where they said what.
When you originally asked him that was what he said (I never said he did not say it), but you continued to ask him in which he did provided a clear clarification and why. You did not like the response, so now you are going to go on an on about how he is xyz simply because his thoughts are senseless to you.
Ignoring you is not a matter of backpedaling, but a matter of knowing when any discussion with you is going nowhere. You are no longer looking to debate but throw around ad hominems. A typical habit of yours anytime someone does not agree with your ideas or way of thinking.
LikeLike
@ George
Sharina understood me perfectly. It is unclear to me why you did not.
LikeLike
@George, Chrisitians in the 1100’s defended themselves from rampant Muslim fanaticism which had swept across the Chrisitian Middle East up into Spain. History shows us that Muslims go on these rampages every few hundred years proletizing with the sword, the current jihad is just the latest in a long line of similar attempted violent conquests of the West.
LikeLike
[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/ […]
LikeLike
I would like to highlight a point. The majority of terrorists who identify as Muslim have killed in the name of their faith. Their religion motivated them to commit their crimes. The majority of terrorists who identify as Christian, however, usually aren’t motivated to kill because of their religion.
Some people say that Timothy McVeigh is a “Christian terrorists”. And it’s true, McVeigh was a terrorist, and he did identify as a Christian on and off throughout his life. However, the motivation for his attack was not religious, but political. I think it would be more accurate to label him simply as a “Western terrorist”, of which there are plenty.
I’m not writing this to say Christianity is any better than Islam. Christians have killed more people throughout history. It just seems to me that people are using the terms “Western” and “Christian” interchangeably. Hitler was indeed a white, Western man. And he may have identified as Catholic personally, I don’t know. But his motivation for killing the Jews was racial, not religious. He was a Western mass murderer, but I don’t know if I’d call him a Christian one.
LikeLike
Ideologies kill.
Communism killed more people than any other in human history.
That is the story!
LikeLike
@GFRF
Ideologies, even ones that are largely positive, do tend to kill. Particularly when they’re forced upon people who don’t want them and/or don’t need them. Both the West and the Islamic World have a habit of thinking they’re saving the planet by spreading what they believe, often by force, to other parts of the world. Usually the recipients of their ideological outbreak don’t feel all that saved.
LikeLike
He is obviously black and Islamic himself as you see he always uses the word White when it comes to America. No word of Africa though huh? Crazy how there is black soldiers in the White America’s army. I’m not a Christian but I do know when I see reversed racism.
LikeLike
Hatred and evil is in the heart of mankind. And left to our own devise any of us could do great evil. Most of the wars that are said to be Christian wars were not, but were political wars. Just because America was mostly Christian during the wars in the 20th century doesn’t mean they are wars done in the name of Christ. Hitler was not a Christian. American slavery was an abomination according levitical law. Just because someone says they are Christian doesn’t mean they are “You’ll know them by there fruits”. The road is more narrow then people think to be a true follower of Christ and few find it. This doesn’t make Christians better than unbelievers. Both are sinners, just one is redeemed through Christ love…..
LikeLike
@GFRF
“Communism killed more people than any other in human history.”
Where on earth did you get such a crazy idea? What proof do you have that they killed anywhere close to the amount killed in the name of Christ?
LikeLike
This is all based on Wikipedia information. Really!
It’s sad to see so MANY people so deluded by a web sight, its like looking at the masses following religion – a group that is fed only information “they” want them to know.
Please grow up – Wikipedia is the most biased web sight there is. It’s actually worse than Fox News!
LikeLike
@Bruce Williams
Right, when you call something an “encyclopaedia,” pepper it with facts and make it the only free encyclopaedia available to the masses, you can con most people into believing anything.
LikeLike
@ Bruce Williams
1. I think the Wikipedia is good for a first approximation, especially in a post where the numbers are not the main point but the Islamophobia that informs much of Western thinking.
2. If you think Fox News is better than the Wikipedia, then you have no idea how bad Fox News is.
LikeLike
Not to mention most commenters used other sources to add to the discussion. *shrugs*
LikeLike
@Zack
Then I hope you realize that there is no such thing as reverse racism?
LikeLike
Critics pounce after Obama talks Crusades, slavery at prayer breakfast
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obamas-speech-at-prayer-breakfast-called-offensive-to-christians/2015/02/05/6a15a240-ad50-11e4-ad71-7b9eba0f87d6_story.html)
Obama:
LikeLike
@ jefe
Fox News has been going nuts over what Obama said at the prayer breakfast.
LikeLike
Fox News is already nuts. Can they go more nuts?
I was just wondering if Obama is pandering less since the Republicans control Congress.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on News for the Blind and commented:
Proof that Christians are more violent than any other religious groups. Here in America, over 67% of capital murders are done by those of the Christian faith….something for the Christian filth to think about as they push their pathetic religion on the rest of the world
LikeLike
What an asinine article! First off you can’t just throw two major world wars into the caused by Christians camp you idiot! Unless the war was specifically for a religious cause ie: The Crusades etc. Then it should not even be in the list! WWI and WWII were fought over territory and political ideologies.
The fact is Islam is the ONLY religion that was spread originally by war and violence. Early Christianity was spread by the gospel (bible) through apostles and teaching. Yes eventually it turned violent as most religions do when they try to push their ideology on others. Hell even non bug squishing Jainist kings went to war in India. There is no religion without blood on its hands through history.
Anyway I don’t dwell in the past, I live in the now, and the only religion I currently see committing genocide and conflict all over the globe for religious reasons as of 2015 is Islam! 😉
LikeLike
SHARINA you are the most ignorant and biased pro Islam cheerleader I have EVER had the displeasure of reading comments from! You can’t even admit when you’re clearly wrong. I respect all religions, but you are a simply a racist raving lunatic, and hopefully not living in the US as I would strongly suspect you support ISIS/ISIL and Jihad. That concerns me.
I would absolutely have you in tears in a real face to debate debate over these issues.
Yes unfortunately there is “Islamophobia” in the world right now, and it truly is a shame because all Muslims do not want violent conflict and many support reform unlike the brainwashed 19th century throwback Sunni Salafists who want to keep the world in the dark ages with extremist control measures and violent Caliphate revivals. Maybe I’ll just go get a suit of armor and a long sword and meet them on the plains of battle lol
You don’t like all this unfair Islamophobia? Then stop hiding behind your hijab like the frightened little girl you no doubt are and take a stand for what’s right! Instead of being a submissive little battered weakling blaming every problem in the world on Christians and the West then say “no I will not let my beautiful religion be perverted and hijacked by a bunch of throwback radicals” but I strongly suspect you will do nothing because that is what weak women more afraid of being beaten by their husbands than bravely taking a stand generally do. You would rather meekly submit then actually try to change the world for the better, and thus nothing will change. I actually pity you. Must be a very sad and hopeless existence you lead being so filled with hate, mostly of yourself. I will pray for you. 🙂
LikeLike
@TC
If I was actually wrong then you would be able to debate what I said other than making an essay filled with name calling. Plus I will be more than happy to point to places where I did admit I was wrong.
“I would absolutely have you in tears in a real face to debate debate over these issues.”—I doubt it. Mainly because you are an online tough guy or gal with a chip on their shoulder about what you secretly have determined I believe, but considering I made it clear what I believe it highly concerns me when a persons first comment consists of reading comprehension issues. 🙂
“You don’t like all this unfair Islamophobia? Then stop hiding behind your hijab like the frightened little girl you no doubt are and take a stand for what’s right!”—-I am Mormon. This is obviously a clear indication you did not read anything I said and this was stated way….too… Often. Plus I am entitled to call unfair treatment for what it is. I thought in America that was part of my right or is that another part of the American lie?
“I actually pity you. Must be a very sad and hopeless existence you lead being so filled with hate, mostly of yourself. I will pray for you.”—ROFL. I really don’t know what is more pathetic. The fact that you took the time to fantasize about what you think I believe as this imaginary Muslim or the fact that you decided to hit the submit button. The instability of it all. I suggest you hold a prayer circle for yourself.
LikeLike
@Don Gato
In short…..you missed the point?
LikeLike
calling Muhammad a terrorist is misleading or not? he was a warlord.
LikeLike
Ecologists killed more people than Christians, Muslims and Communists put together 😉
http://junksciencearchive.com/malaria_clock.html
LikeLike
As other have said, your stats are way off, along with your facts, but perhaps your biggest mistake is not to count the agressor and defender. For example, the Crusades were a reaction to Islamic violent conquest awakened with Jerusalem finally fell to the Muslim sword. That’s the cold inarguable truth yet you don’t mention the deaths caused by the Muslims nor the fact that the Crusades were a defensive war against the onslaught of Islam. I have heard it said that 95% of wars are Islamic and I can well believe it. Pick a war today.
LikeLike
Bull. Bull.Bull
I’m assuming you’re a Muslim.. Am incorrect? Our bible teaches is NOT to kill.. And we don’t. ISIS kills people everyday.. Your lies will catch up to you one day.
LikeLike
Jennifer
I will assume you don’t read the bible and please stop the “you must be muslim” just because you fail to do proper research on the matter.
LikeLike
“… labels do not prove causation. They just prove bigotry.”
Then you’ve proven your bigotry. Congratulations.
LikeLike
@ Gardner Ruggles Jr
And you’ve proven that you did not read the whole post.
LikeLike
“I’m assuming you’re a Muslim.. Am incorrect? Our bible teaches is NOT to kill.. And we don’t. ISIS kills people everyday.. Your lies will catch up to you one day.”
Actually, there are a number of countries in the world today, even white, Christian countries who feel exactly like they are living in the midst of World War III and the US is the aggressor. But the US carefully defines world war in a way that will always leave it blameless. And it’s unfair to talk about the wars being fought in the Middle East when it could well be covert ops of the US instigating those wars. Some question if ISIS is real or another covert op of the US. US covert ops instigated a race war in my folks’ country that left us (the minority population) officially extinct.
All that being said, I did feel like this post rather too carefully defined ‘violence’ so as to absolve the Middle East. Being descended from people who were slaves to Middle Eastern Imperialists for centuries, with no rights they were bound to respect and any number of poles shoved up our butts to make that point, so to speak, it’s rather ingrained in the DNA to not perceive them as innocents. Though I appreciate the effort to point out that the West’s condemnation of the Middle East is entirely hypocritical and self-serving.
Nonetheless you’re not likely to find any of us who found ourselves ‘kidnapped’ into their subcontinent for half a millennium who aren’t thoroughly convinced that it is a very aggressive culture. They made that point REAL clear with us. Especially with those pointy poles.
LikeLike
These are inaccuracies stating that Christian wars including world war 1,and 2,are Christian Wars. This site should be taken down for lack of fact checking!
LikeLike
@steven smith
“Warning: Read to the end of the post before jumping to conclusions about where I am going with this post.”
You should probably consider repeating 5k, 1st, or 2nd grade. I believe those grades teach reading and critical thinking.
LikeLike
Pure taqiyyah Abagond. Do you know what that means?
The list is nonsense from start to finish. Why? Because you have classified as ‘Christian’ wars which were not fought in the name of Christianity, and not fought based on biblical doctrine.
e.g. The 1st and 2nd world wars were not Christian wars, they were fought in defense of secular democracy.
That’s the difference: The Islamic offensives were fought in the =name of Islam=, an ideology whose stated aim is to Islamize the world.
Where did you learn this kind of fallacious analysis Abagond – in a madrasa?
LikeLike
@Marc
Based on your usage of it I am not really sure you know what it means. Wrong context for sure.
LikeLike
@sharinalr
It must be upsetting to be ‘not really sure’ Sharinalr – does it keep you awake at nights? [grin]
LikeLike
@Marc
Of course not. 🙂
Though it does make you look quite stupid ‘with certainty’ to ask someone else if they know a meaning of the word when it seems pretty clear that you don’t.
LikeLike
@sharinalr
Oh dear. Here we go with the ad hominem attack. Unable to refute my rebuttal of a grossly inaccurate analysis, you resort to semantic nitpicking, then move to personal attack.
.
The asking about taqiyyah was *sarcasm*. Oops, how could you have missed that? Was it all too subtle for you Sharinalr?
.
But then that’s how you Islamapologists operate. Incapable of objective argument, and unable to defend an ideology which routinely violates human rights, you attack the debater. It’s the only tactic you have…
LikeLike
@Marc
Your initial response was an ad hominem attack. I just responded in kind. So basically you can make the attacks, but can not take them.
“”Unable to refute my rebuttal of a grossly inaccurate analysis, you resort to semantic nitpicking, then move to personal attack.”—Actually your rebuttal was refuted by several people already above. I simply saw no need to rinse and repeat. Not to mention a key element in the article you failed to read…”The mistake here lies not in the numbers but in the words “ Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading.” Then again maybe you did read it but failed to understand it. Here is something even more funny..it is said ( correspondences and documentation) that 911 attacks was more attack on American government and not religious motivation. Other Islamic extremist groups goals are western overthrow. Not religious take over. In short, just because a person claims to be part of a religion does not mean they are doing in the name of that religion.
“The asking about taqiyyah was *sarcasm*.”—Asking about it has nothing to do with your inaccurate use of the word, which lead me to believe you have no idea what it means. I just found it odd and funny that you were asking a person the meaning of a word you did not even know. Particularly in this day and age when such knowledge is at ones fingertips.
“It’s the only tactic you have…”—You should not assume. I prefer to feel people out before going into in-depth responses. As such I was able to determine what type of person you are. So far not much of one. 🙂
LikeLike
@Sharinalr
In fact, you’re the one who needs tuition in critical thinking. Looking closer at your sloppy analysis:
“Actually your rebuttal was refuted by several people already above”
Wrong. Since those other comments occurred =before= my rebuttal, they could not have been written to refute my post.
.
“a key element in the article you failed to read”
Wrong. I read the whole article, including the rider at the end (more on that below).
You failed to properly read my post. I did not say Abagond’s =post= was inaccurate, I said that the =analysis= (i.e. the conflict list), was grossly inaccurate, and it is.
It’s as if Abagond deliberately set an intellectual trap, by putting up statistics he does not agree with, then placing his caveat right at the end, where many a casual reader (in spite of his up-front warning), would overlook it.
If he does not agree with the conflict attributions Christian/Muslim, why publish those figures at all?
.
Much better would have been to have edited that list, indicating conflicts that were primarily political or secular (perhaps removing them altogether) and omitting any such from his totals. Then we would have a clear and =useful= comparison of religious violence.
.
Instead, we have a post which lacks clarity, and has spawned many comments both from those who get-it, and those who don’t. Either way, his conflict list is not particularly useful.
.
Face it, Sharinalr, you have a second-rate intellect. What are you? A college preppy? 😉
.
P.S. What is your definition of ‘taqiyyah’?
LikeLike
@marc
“In fact, you’re the one who needs tuition in critical thinking. Looking closer at your sloppy analysis:”–Do you really know how dumb you sound here. You don’t get tuition in critical thinking. LOL.
“Wrong. Since those other comments occurred =before= my rebuttal, they could not have been written to refute my post.”—This is where your critical thinking is lacking. You presented an argument that others have already presented. Those same arguments ( word for word) were refuted and as such so was yours.. It does not matter if you are now re-presenting it. I can always copy and past from others, do a rinse and repeat and your argument would thus be refuted if that makes a difference.
“You failed to properly read my post. I did not say Abagond’s =post= was inaccurate, I said that the =analysis= (i.e. the conflict list), was grossly inaccurate, and it is.”—Oh I read your post clearly, but I will say you failed to properly read or even comprehend mine. Your recent response is nothing more but a mere deflection away from that fact by trying to point towards something I simply did not dispute in your original post. So I will quote what I am disputing so you can have some clarity.
You stated “That’s the difference: The Islamic offensives were fought in the =name of Islam=, an ideology whose stated aim is to Islamize the world.”
That statement is not entirely true and based on documentation may indeed be false based on what I stated above. Do you need a copy and past of what was said so as to avoid confusion?
Now on to your new found analysis.
“I did not say Abagond’s =post= was inaccurate, I said that the =analysis= (i.e. the conflict list), was grossly inaccurate, and it is.”—I am trying to find the post were I accused you of saying it was.
“Much better would have been to have edited that list, indicating conflicts that were primarily political or secular (perhaps removing them altogether) and omitting any such from his totals. Then we would have a clear and =useful= comparison of religious violence.”—–You simply do not get the point of the post. The point was basically to point out the hypocrisy. In separating it in the manner you speak of the point would be lost.
“Face it, Sharinalr, you have a second-rate intellect. What are you? A college preppy?”—I am sure you wish this to be true, but it seems to be more of a self reflection. You used a word you did not have enough knowledge to understand and then had the nerve to think yourself smart enough to deflect by putting focus on something I never disputed or refuted. I would not be so bold as to even call you a second-rate intellect as it is clear you do not fall in the category of intellect.
“What is your definition of ‘taqiyyah’?”—I don’t have a personal definition of the word, but those that regularly use it do. Perhaps you should do a google search and find the actually answer. 🙂
LikeLike
@Sharinalr
“You don’t get tuition in critical thinking.”
Wrong. Firstly, you contradict your own statement a few posts above, “…5k, 1st, or 2nd grade. I believe those grades teach reading and critical thinking.” Secondly, there are such courses at college level also, as a simple web search shows. Obviously you do not check facts before shooting your mouth off: http://www.mtsac.edu/philosophy/courses.html (see ‘PHIL 8 Critical Thinking’ partway down the page)
You laugh the laugh of fools, Sharina.
.
“same arguments (word for word) were refuted and as such so was yours.”
There is no other argument which is word-for-word the same as mine. The refutations to previous, similar arguments, were =attempted= refutations. You have assumed that they are valid i.e. assumed evidence not proven.
More fuzzy, uncritical analysis.
.
“…a mere deflection away from … something I simply did not dispute in your original post…”
Yes, I introduced something not dealt with in your convoluted rebuttals. So sue me.
Not a deflection, but a valid suggestion. However, you missed my implied point, so let me spell it out:
Producing an erroneous list of religious wars, merely to make trivial points about hypocrisy and mislabeling, is wasted effort. A real, thorough analysis, would be far more interesting and useful.
.
Muslims and Islamapologists repeatedly claim that Christianity is more violent than Islam, but without producing any evidence or analysis to support their assertions. I had hoped that Abagond’s matrix of conflicts might be such evidence (one way or the other). But it is not. Yes, he has made some minor points, but he has also left intact a matrix which he knows is inaccurate, which =seems= to show that Christianity is more violent. That is misleading, and in a sense hypocritical, in itself.
.
Such a comparison of conflicts will always be arguable as to attributions, conflicts with multiple motives, omissions, disputed figures etc but it would be something to work from, a starting point. Something more solid than the empty, unsupported claims trotted out by Islamophiles.
.
“That statement is not entirely true and based on documentation may indeed be false.”
May indeed? Wow, that’s powerful language Sharina. Another unsupported assertion from a woolley thinker.
What documentation? Produce it.
.
“I don’t have a personal definition of the word,” [taqiyyah i.e.]
I’m sorry? You claim I misused the word, but you are unable to define it?
Now =that= is laughable! LOL.
.
I regret grading your intellect as second rate. I was wrong, you have a third rate intellect…
LikeLike
@ Marc
You are getting dumber and more desperate per post. 5k , 1st, and 2nd grades are in the k-12 educational system where they teach the basics of critical thinking. That is not critical thinking tuition. As tuition is a payment. Providing a link to philosophy is not changing or disputing what I originally said to that poster. It is called an insult. Too bad you did not get it. LOL.
“There is no other argument which is word-for-word the same as mine….”—MMHh word for word may have been an exaggeration, but otherwise the same arguments you presented were disputed none the less. Quite early on in the comment section I might add and like you those individuals did not get the point of the post. Once the point was explained to them they either added input or moved on. That is not an assumption but an observed fact. If you have no idea what the person’s point is then you can’t really present a reasonable argument to begin with. You are creating an assumed argument in which you assume what the person means or believes.
“Not a deflection”—It is not a suggestion, but simple deflection. Not only because you are arguing something I never disputed, but you are not addressing the actually things that are being disputed. You are trying to pull the conversation into something you feel you are more stable at winning. It is also one of the intellectual dishonest moves. Just because I pointed out what you are doing in an effort to let you know I am not going there, does not mean I have no idea what your point is. You are just creating an alternate argument route. It is just sad and a bit pointless.
“Muslims and Islamapologists repeatedly claim that Christianity is more violent than Islam, but without producing any evidence or analysis to support their assertions. I had hoped that Abagond’s matrix of conflicts might be such evidence (one way or the other). But it is not. Yes, he has made some minor points, but he has also left intact a matrix which he knows is inaccurate, which =seems= to show that Christianity is more violent. That is misleading, and in a sense hypocritical, in itself.”—ROFL!!! You are missing the point and the more you speak the more you are making it very apparent you missed the point. A point that has been stated on repeated occasions by abagond in the comment section. You are trying too hard to appear educated that you just look stupid. The post is not some statistical or scientific revelation where the numbers are set to prove x or y. The question is a rhetorical one.
“May indeed? Wow, that’s powerful language Sharina. Another unsupported assertion from a woolley thinker.
What documentation? Produce it.”—Since you like looking through my old posts, perhaps you will have fun looking for the link I posted above. Don’t worry it was posted this year. 😉
“I’m sorry? You claim I misused the word, but you are unable to define it?
Now =that= is laughable! LOL.”—-It’s not that I can not define it, but you asked MY definition of the word not THE definition of the word. I did not create the word to have a definition of it. Nothing like an insult that goes over ones head. That is twice now isn’t it. But to not drag this out any longer. You presented taqiyyah as if it’s direct translation was lying/liar/BS. Which is false seeing as the word has no direct English translation. It deals with doctrine that allows a Muslim to conceals their belief under fear of death or injury to oneself or community.
“I regret grading your intellect as second rate. I was wrong, you have a third rate intellect”—Either way still beats you and your no intellect and with that in mind your grading scale means noting.
LikeLike
@Sharina
.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
.
HA, HA, HA, HA, HA.
.
P.S. You need tuition in English also…
LikeLike
@Marc
And yet you still refuse to address the claims you brought up. I guess it is what it is when you have no argument to being with. 🙂
LikeLike
Except for one thing…America is not Christian, we have separation of Church and State and are actually religiously tolerant of all religions according to our first amendment to the Constitution, unlike Islamic countries where only Islam is accepted.
Secondly, Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great’s army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. So approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the tragedies of Jihad which are not taught in any school.
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
What do you call religiously tolerant? And what say you of laws not only mentioning God but are mimics of biblical commandments? For example marriage is between man and woman.
LikeLike
“Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa.”—You may want to choose a different word than destroyed. While the christian population is significantly smaller as a result of Islamic conquest, they remain none the less.
LikeLike
@ Baddioes
Where are you getting these numbers from?
From what I know, Islam and Arabic took hundreds of years to spread to just half of the people in Egypt. It was not an Anglo American style genocide like you seem to be thinking.
LikeLike
I avoid all religious faiths like the plague especially Abrahamic religions like Islam and Christianity. I don’t care for Judaism but right now, Judaism is somewhat tolerable even though I don’t believe in any of it’s core beliefs. To me, religion is the cause of most of the world’s problems and causes many wars in the past, present and future.
This is my view, being a non believer but I respect other view points that are different from mine.
LikeLike
@sharinalr We are accepting of all religions and you cannot be discriminated against for your religion according to the first amendment. We are based on Christian principles, but separation of church and state makes it clear we are not a Christian nation. That law may be overruled soon to allow all marriages (if it hasn’t been already). How about attempt to destroy? You’re right destroyed probably wasn’t accurate.
LikeLike
@Kiwi The Holocaust? You are blaming that on Christianity? That is so far fetched. Yes I know, but I could say today that any Jew who steps foot in an Islamic country will be killed if it is found out they are Jewish, where as anywhere in Europe, the Jews are accepted. So yes, the Christians have had some bad relations in the past, but historically, Islam has had worse. If you have evidence against that, please provide it.
Well, the Crusades were actually an act of self defense by the Catholic Church after Muslims had taken control of the holy lands. The Muslims had conquered the land so the purpose of the Crusades was to get it back.
Yes, I know the state of Israel did not exactly help tensions. Yes, and the war on terrorists is a very good thing. And what does oil have to do with Christianity?
The Christian population is not dwindling. Yah, encroaching upon the region because of all the terrorism that comes out of there.
LikeLike
@abagond look up “how many people have muslims killed” on Google and you will find numbers on several websites in between 250 million and 300 million
LikeLike
@ Baddioes
You made the claim. It is not my job to do your research for you.
LikeLike
@ Baddioes
“Historically”, Christians have killed at least 5 million Jews as Jews. Where is your “evidence” that Muslims have killed more?
The Catholic Church has never ruled the Holy Land. Muslims had ruled it for over 400 years before the Crusades. It was hardly an act of “self defense”
LikeLike
@abagond http://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
When did we kill 5 million Jews. And no the Holocaust doesn’t count because the Hitler was not a Christian.
You have no idea what you are talking about. The whole point of the crusades was to GET BACK the Holy land, not conquer it for the first time. Research it. The Muslims conquered it from the Byzantium empire aka East Roman empire…hint hint, Roman Catholicism…
LikeLike
@Kiwi “I see. The slaughter of Muslim women and children was just an “act of self-defense”.
Only because the Muslims conquered it first when we had control of it. And it’s not like the Muslims are exempt for slaughtering anyone. Especially now, any terrorist operation…Islam, plus 270 million dead since its founding. All in “self defense” right?
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
“We are accepting of all religions and you cannot be discriminated against for your religion according to the first amendment. “—Just because that is what the first amendment says does not mean that Muslims are not being discriminated against. This is one of many articles highlighting discrimnation that Muslims face in the USA. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/29/muslim-discrimination-cas_n_842076.html
Yet nothing you said changes the fact that many laws, not just same sex marriage, not only mention God in them but follow many biblical commandments as law. If there was such a separation of church and state then such laws would not exist at all. In some states you can not even hold political positions unless you are Christians. Even if same sex laws may be soon overruled, that does not change that now only a few states allow such unions.
Also this http://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
Does not support your claim. For starters it is a blog post, but most interestingly it is trying to lay claim to the slave trade and plantation deaths as part of jihad deaths. That is an inaccurate claim and thus your 120 million falls short if at all because plantation deaths are the result of white American slave holders and owners not Muslims. In the Buddhist category it is stated that they did not keep up with war, so my question is how did they account for how many died as a result of jihad and otherwise?
LikeLike
I got a new muslim friend i think in general you can trust them to not be drunk just start with ah salaam alakum
LikeLike
Just as an FYI
The holy land did not have any strong Christian sites until the 4th century thanks to Constantine I. Today one of those sites so happens to be home to branches such as Protestants and Roman Catholicism, but I don’t see where it has been stated that it was Roman Catholicism period. So far research seems to point to the holy land being home to Jews. Many of which were ran out and forbidden to enter the city thanks to Constantine. Muslims allowed them to reenter the city soon after they took it in 638.
When Christians sought to retake the city, they slaughtered a majority of the city and lead to a great decline in population. The holy land actually prospered under Muslim rule.
LikeLike
@Kiwi so are you…270 million people…Islam took the Holy land first, whether there was strong influence or not Islam still conquered it and drove back the Christians as well as outside of that era were there mass slaughterings. How about all the Islamic terrorist attacks that you hear about today, you are trying to defend that? How about your prophet, all the bad things he did. Should I point those out. Here is a website for proof of that.
http://www.4truth.net/fourtruthpbworld.aspx?pageid=8589953043
@sharinalr I didn’t mean there wouldn’t be discrimination as in “Haha” sort of thing, I meant it as discrimination as you cannot be denied your basic fundamental rights. I as a christian sometimes face discrimination in my country that is base off of our teachings. However, you cannot deny someone rights of a citizen because of their discrimination. Everybody faces some form of discrimination at some point.
What state can you not hold a political position in if you aren’t Christian…never heard of that, the only place I could think of is near the Bible belt and I don’t even think that is true. Yes, you want to know why that is? The founding fathers were Christian and believed the Christian teachings had the best moral doctrines for a society/nation. It doesn’t say anywhere you must be a Christian or you can’t be a citizen. We are based off of Christian teachings because the teachings have proper moral standards, imagine if our country was based off of atheisms moral code, hint, they don’t have one. Speaking of which, where does Islam get its moral standard if man is not made in the image of Allah, your moral framework comes to you from where? Okay, but if you are honest with yourself, you would realize that eventually all states will allow same sex marriage.
On that “blog post” it was written by Bill Warner. He has been studying Islam for over 30 years now and he was an applied physicist trained in quantum physics, and a University professor; he holds a PhD in both Physics and Mathematics, so look him up please. Here is another website if you would like.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/05/the_greatest_murder_machine_in_history.html
How about this article, Isis’s death toll.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-gruesome-muslim-death-toll.html
The Highest estimate of people killed during the crusades is 3 million, and that is being incredibly generous.
If you take out the two world wars alone because the U.S. is not a Christian state, it goes from 113.8 million to 52.3 million…either way its not anywhere near 270 million.
P.S. I will try to come on as much as I can. But I am busy so.
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
“I didn’t mean there wouldn’t be discrimination as in “Haha” sort of thing, I meant it as discrimination as you cannot be denied your basic fundamental rights.”—-I didn’t say or think you did meant it in a “Haha” way, but I did ask you to clarify in the comment above in which you went on to say “We are accepting of all religions and you cannot be discriminated against for your religion according to the first amendment.” You never clarified. At any rate the link I posted does show that Muslims are largely discriminated against, so it suggests that the USA is not accepting of all religions. Furthermore this link suggests that basic rights are being denied to Muslims http://twocircles.net/2013oct24/legitimate_democratic_rights_muslims_are_denied.html#.VUg2FtLF_ng
I am not sure how you see basic rights, but no one has the right to be harassed because of their religion. Something Muslim women face here as a result of wearing the hijab.
“What state can you not hold a political position in if you aren’t Christian…never heard of that, the only place I could think of is near the Bible belt and I don’t even think that is true.”—-Quite a few. http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas3.htm
“The founding fathers were Christian and believed the Christian teachings had the best moral doctrines for a society/nation.”—Not all of the founding fathers were christian, so who exactly gave off the idea that Christian teachings were best moral doctrines? I wager more social pressures seeing as the majority of the people were Christians. Either way it does not change the fact that Christianity is way to intertwined in the laws to simply try to write it off as a separation of church and state. Atheist have more morals than you might thing and it proves you do not need religion to be moral or of good character. So religion was not needed to implement common sense and good judgement.
“Okay, but if you are honest with yourself, you would realize that eventually all states will allow same sex marriage.”—I have been honest this whole time. Me being honest has nothing to do with the reality that each state has the right to deny or accept same sex marriage. Whether it becomes country wide or not is a matter for the future and one in which no one really knows how it will come about or how soon. Either way we are talking about right now not right somewhere in the future.
“On that “blog post” it was written by Bill Warner.”—-It being a blog post was not the big issue. I don’t think he has thoroughly studied in the manner he claims and posting all his credentials does not change a lacking in the area he wrote about in that post. Trying to law the lives of plantation slaves on the Arabs is like trying to blame a butterfly for a tsunami in japan for flapping his wings.
“The Highest estimate of people killed during the crusades is 3 million, and that is being incredibly generous.”—-not sure your point.
“If you take out the two world wars alone because the U.S. is not a Christian state, it goes from 113.8 million to 52.3 million…either way its not anywhere near 270 million.”—That is not something I really care about as that frankly was not the point of my contention nor the point of the post.
“P.S. I will try to come on as much as I can. But I am busy so.”—You don’t have to explain to me when you can and can not post and for what reason. That is not my business or my concern.
LikeLike
@sharinalr Fundamental rights in the Constitution of the United States of America aka “Inalienable rights” are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of happiness. You cannot be killed because you are a Muslim, in Muslim countries you can be killed for being a Christian. Liberty, you have the same freedoms as long as they are within the boundaries of the law if you are a Muslim, not the same if you are a Christian in an Islamic country. Pursuit of happiness, if you are a Muslim you are denied that right. And notice how it says “pursuit of” not just happiness, just because you can pursue happiness doesn’t mean you always will be, Muslims are not denied the right to pursue it, just because they aren’t always happy. On a side note, if you want to prove to me America is a christian country (which you would have to in order to support the claim that Christians are more violent than Islam which is the big issue), you can’t just prove only Muslims are discriminated against, you would have to prove only Christianity is accepted in terms of fundamental/inalienable rights to show that we are a christian nation.
There’s harassment everywhere, people are bullied all the time, I have been made fun of aka harassed for my beliefs.
Okay well my bet would be those laws stating you have to be christian to hold office will soon be repealed, and, again, where is it different in Islamic nations?
Okay most were though, and of course if there is going to be a majority rule, the majority would have their laws passed. I never said separation of church and state was intended to be the way it is today, they still wanted Christian teachings in all of the laws, but to say we are a christian nation is so far fetched, we are not even close, if we were why do today Christians still feel discriminated against if we are such a Christian nation? But where did the atheists get their common sense and moral judgement from, hint, please don’t say subjective morality, its not, because then you have to justify to me that Hitler, Sadam Hussein, Stalin, KKK, Khmer Rouge, Boxer Rebellion, Red Guard Rebellion, all the violence that goes on today with drugs, all of those things would have to be justified because that was what their morals were. If moral reasoning can be purely subjective, you have absolutely nothing from stopping anybody to choose to just zing one through your forehead and say thats their answer, how would you stop that?
Okay 37 out of 50 states allow same sex marriage, so if that is majority, and it completely goes against Christian teachings, how can you use that to say we are a Christian nation when only 13 states out of 50 abide by the original Christian teachings.
Okay but you are just claiming something, that he did not do proper research, but you have no basis for that. I think someone who’s been studying Islam for 30 years number one is pretty qualified to write on that subject, but also number 2, you haven’t proven anything to me. Btw, check out these links
http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/06/02/10-facts-about-the-arab-enslavement-of-black-people-not-taught-in-schools/2/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade#Scope_of_the_trade
There are also more.
Not your point? What was your point then? I have given you proof America is not Christian, and proof on the topic of this whole blog that Islam is much more violent than Christianity. About the 3 million during the crusades, you are claiming that we are so bad, look at your own religion. And about the 52.3 million, how can you not care, that is proof of this whole blog post Islam is much more violent?
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
I know what fundamental rights are and it does not support what you claimed earlier, which is they can not be discriminated against. Obviously they can be and are. Furthermore Muslims have been killed because they were Muslims in the USA. To say they can not is a gross misuse of words that do not bold well for your claim. It does not matter what the constitution says, because these people still experience it here. Tons of stories and cases are available to see this taking place by USA citizens.
“n a side note, if you want to prove to me America is a christian country (which you would have to in order to support the claim that Christians etc…..”—It was never my goal to prove any of this at all or disprove it for that matter. It was an extremely inaccurate conclusion you came to. My goal through question and clarification was to correct some of the inaccurate statements you made (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/are-christians-more-violent-than-muslims/#comment-283284) and address the idea of Christian commandments having such a heavy influence on laws in the united states while people still lay claim to separation of church and state. In many of those cases you seemed unaware of how much influence Christianity had on laws. You further try to explain this away by saying that the founding fathers were christian. Not all of them were. Which then brings the excuse that Christian principles are good and moral. Yet none of this seems to address my original question or idea of if USA is not a christian state then why do so many laws follow christian commandments. Can one claim to not be a Christian nation, yet still follow Christian biblical laws?
“There’s harassment everywhere, people are bullied all the time, I have been made fun of aka harassed for my beliefs.”—- I am going so far as to say being attacked (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/heba-abolaban-muslim-woman-attacked-boston_n_3112065.html)
“But where did the atheists get their common sense and moral judgement from, hint, please don’t say subjective morality, its not, because then etc”—-It is called using common sense and good character. A person who is an atheists can have good character without having to rely on Christian values. KKK are of christian religion by the way and used God and scripture as a means for what they did. Hitler was christian depending on the wind. Your problem is you believe that religion has so much root on what people do and how people act, yet many of the most racist groups alive were and are Christians.
“Okay 37 out of 50 states allow same sex marriage, so if that is majority, and it completely goes against Christian teachings, how can you use that to say we are a Christian nation when only 13 states out of 50 abide by the original Christian teachings”—-I did not use that to say we are a Christian nation. It was originally an example of Christian commandments having influence on the law.
“Okay but you are just claiming something, that he did not do proper research, but you have no basis for that.”—The link you presented was not a show of 30 years of research. The link you presented was a list of books he read that had that information in it. What part are you not getting? That is clear basis that he did not do research beyond reading a book, which is something anyone can do. That is not 30 years of studying Islam. What is it you think I was suppose to prove? I simply saw fit to present the contradictions or inaccuracies in your statements. The issues are as follows a) You ignore anything that does not support your claim. B) We are several posts in and you have come to the conclusion that I am arguing something I am not. C) Even after explaining somethings to you, you still go on with what you want to see and believe I said.IE providing links that still don’t support your claim and still lacking in detailed research with realistic estimates.
I know Arabs enslaved blacks, but what does that do to prove the point you made above? Nothing.
“Not your point? What was your point then?”—My point was clear in my first post, but it was addressed in other parts of this comment.
“proof on the topic of this whole blog that Islam is much more violent than Christianity”—-The question of this blog is actually a rhetorical one. Which was meant to point out hypocrisy, so you really did not address the point at all. That is neither here nor there to me. You provided some numbers, but you failed to be able to distinguish between Islamic conquest vs actual jihad. As I stated they are not the same thing and adding them into one to make a number is no different than making world war I and world war II christian wars.
LikeLike
@Kiwi yes I actually can read. If I couldn’t how would I be able to respond to your posts with actual words? I am justifying it the sense that if the Muslims did it in self-defense, then the Christians must have too. You have to either justify both or say both were wrong, you cannot say one is okay and the other is not. Whether it’s self defense or revenge the bottom line is Christians had it first, Muslims took it, Christians got it back. Do I actually believe that going out and killing 3 million people can be justified in any case if not throughout a war, a direct revelation from God, etc…? No. And even of those cases, the only one I think would be justifiable would be a direct revelation from God (and not claiming to have one, but actually receiving one) because he gave life to us all and is totally just in taking our life away by any means he chooses because we have sinned against him.
The point I am trying to make to you, which I am sort of surprised you haven’t gotten yet, is how can you sit there and claim the Christians are so bad, without pointing out all of the bad things the Muslims have done as well?
By the way your insults don’t hurt, so you might as well stop.
@sharlinalr But is that a direct act of the government, or radical people. If you have proof it is the government please provide it.
Okay but to say there is no separation of church and state is the same as that we are a Christian nation because church and state would be combined. You obviously did not read what I said, I said most were, not all. Again, you have the wrong conclusion, I understand all of our laws, or at least most of them are similar to Christian teachings.
“Which then brings the excuse that Christian principles are good and moral. Yet none of this seems to address my original question or idea of if USA is not a christian state then why do so many laws follow christian commandments.”
So let me get this straight. What you are saying is that it is an excuse to say Christian laws are moral, but our country is “based” on those teachings, so therefore the U.S. laws aren’t moral. The laws are good laws for a society, that is why they were used aside from the fact most founding fathers were Christian. And you obviously have no clear understanding of separation of church and state. If we were a Christian state, it would be illegal to even practice another religion in the U.S. because everyone would be forced to be Christian. Just because there is discrimination does not make practicing Islam illegal. Read this. It very clearly explains why the U.S. is not a christian state. By the way, in there it says in article 4 religious tests for political office are prohibited, so all those states that have religious tests for public office, those laws are automatically nullified because the Federal Government has overruled those.
https://www.au.org/resources/publications/is-america-a-christian-nation
Again, yes, discrimination. Again, not the government, some radical american that wasn’t following the law. Again, Isis? Al Qaeda? What do you say to that and the discrimination going on in Islamic countries?
Common sense? If Hitler and the KKK had common sense, they would automatically know what they were doing was bad and not do it no matter what religion told them. And there is no justifiable evidence in the Bible that claims they have the right to do those things and/or be racist, it is their misinterpretation (whether purposely or accidentally) or they have a distorted Bible.
“I did not use that to say we are a Christian nation. It was originally an example of Christian commandments having influence on the law.” If they had an influence on the law then why is gay marriage legal when the Bible tells us very clearly marriage is to be between a man and a woman.
Okay prove to me all of those books are false. What did I ignore? Look, I didn’t claim that so that is your false conclusion. I am giving evidence others have concluded. If you want to argue that the evidence is false, why are you coming to me if it’s not my evidence? Go to him, and prove to him he is wrong then you will have every right in justifying the fact that my evidence that I got from him and have given to you is inaccurate. But you cannot just tell me his basis is inaccurate because I don’t know every basis he has, just like you don’t. We may have some, but not all.
Okay so Christians are some of the most racist people, but arabs aren’t even though they enslaved blacks too? And my point is, with the modern day slavery we know, there will be death and maltreatment.
Hypocrisy? You mean the hypocritical statement that Christians are more violent historically than Muslims? Sorry I have the words confused, the bottom line is Islam has killed 270 million people and until you can give me proof all of his basis’ were wrong without saying his post has no evidence of his credentials or his source is only other books, I have no reason to believe you. Just because they aren’t mentioned doesn’t mean he doesn’t have them. And if he doesn’t have those credentials, prove it.
Since I apparently have misunderstood all of your original points because I suck at interpreting my native language, I want you to state all of your points clearly, and I will try to address them.
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
Your whole comment is riddled with straw men.
“But is that a direct act of the government, or radical people. If you have proof it is the government please provide it.”—I never said it was the direct act of government and as far as the claim of yours that I am disputing you did not either. You are now trying your best to switch the goal post and I am going to do my part to redirect you to your claim. A person can be discriminated against without the use of government. Your claim has been proven to be false.
“Okay but to say there is no separation of church and state is the same as that we are a Christian nation because church and state would be combined.”—Where did I say that? Do quote me saying this? I said it several times now that christian commandments are heavily intertwined in American laws, which it is. You obviously did not read or comprehend what I said, so I find it hard to believe you have a grasp on the laws let alone what is going on in this conversation. You changed your position on the founding fathers once I corrected you.
“So let me get this straight. What you are saying is that it is an excuse to say Christian laws are moral, but our country is “based” on those teachings, so therefore the U.S. laws aren’t moral. “—Nope that is not what I am saying, but I do see you as using this to deflect from the actual point or perhaps this is again a moment where you miss the point. My point is saying Christians laws are moral does not address the question and only is an excuse for not addressing it.
” And you obviously have no clear understanding of separation of church and state. If we were a Christian state, it would be illegal to even practice another religion in the U.S. because everyone would be forced to be Christian.”—Yet I never said the USA was a Christian state, so you are presenting an straw man. Also you have no idea what separation of church and state means. It does not mean you can’t practice another religion. It is in regard to the separation of church from political involvement. It is meant to prevent the church from having heavy influence on laws, but says nothing of not allowing other religions. DUH.
“Just because there is discrimination does not make practicing Islam illegal. “—More deflection on your part. You claimed they could not be discriminated against which still remains false. Trying to now say they can’t be discriminated for practicing Islam is not something I said they could be discriminated against for so yet another straw man argument.
“By the way, in there it says in article 4 religious tests for political office are prohibited, so all those states that have religious tests for public office, those laws are automatically nullified because the Federal Government has overruled those.”—–That does not change the fact that they are still on the books and can be enforced if a state so chooses to.
“Again, Isis? Al Qaeda? What do you say to that and the discrimination going on in Islamic countries?”—I say this is another deflection tactic.
“Common sense? If Hitler and the KKK had common sense, they would automatically know what they were doing was bad and not do it no matter what religion told them. And there is no justifiable evidence in the Bible that claims they have the right to do those things and/or be racist, it is their misinterpretation (whether purposely or accidentally) or they have a distorted Bible.”—You claimed that religion was the basis for people having common sense and good character and that without it (Atheist) they would do whatever. Obviously that is not true for the KKK or Hitler.
LikeLike
“If they had an influence on the law then why is gay marriage legal when the Bible tells us very clearly marriage is to be between a man and a woman.”—Gay marriage did not become legal in some states until recently. It is not fully legal. The mere fact that it was that way to begin with show christian influence.
“Okay prove to me all of those books are false. What did I ignore?”—I did not say all the books were false. I said, several times now, that the book blaming the death of slaves on the plantation on Muslims was a misplacement seeing as slave death was the result of white America.
Look, I didn’t claim that so that is your false conclusion. I am giving evidence others have concluded. If you want to argue that the evidence is false, why are you coming to me if it’s not my evidence?”—You are the one presenting the information as if it is accurate, so of course I am going to address you with it.
“Go to him, and prove to him he is wrong then you will have every right in justifying the fact that my evidence that I got from him and have given to you is inaccurate. But you cannot just tell me his basis is inaccurate because I don’t know every basis he has, just like you don’t. We may have some, but not all.”—Why would I go to him when the link you posted are of books by other people not him? He just gave a list of the books and a summary of what the books said were the estimates. I am not judging all his basis. I am judging what you presented. Which does not indicated 30 years of research.
“Okay so Christians are some of the most racist people, but arabs aren’t even though they enslaved blacks too? And my point is, with the modern day slavery we know, there will be death and maltreatment.”—Another claim I never made. You are bouncing off the walls with every argument and not one seems to even be mine. I am a Christian so it would be beyond me to conclude myself as racist. Hell America has slavery, so you trying to say Arabs are racist and have slaves is hypocritical.
“Hypocrisy? You mean the hypocritical statement that Christians are more violent historically than Muslims? Sorry I have the words confused, the bottom line is Islam has killed 270 million people and until you can give me proof all of his basis’ etc.”—Dear you are just confused period and oddly enough you are a prime example of the type of hypocrisy that the post is talking about. I don’t need you to believe me, but here is the reality of the situation. You made the claims. You claimed he had all those credentials and you claimed he had all those numbers and you came up short. Correction you came up empty. Anyone with sense know that if a person had numbers to spare they would put them up. Also I never said he did not have those credentials I said it did not matter as his work does not show 30 years islamic research. Reading Comprehension is key here and this is the umpteenth time you have failed to comprehend what was said.
“Since I apparently have misunderstood all of your original points because I suck at interpreting my native language, I want you to state all of your points clearly, and I will try to address them.”—I already stated it clearly. You need to go back and read. Starting from the beginning with the serious of questions I asked you that you did not answer. But a person can read several times and still not get it if they do not have the ability to comprehend.
LikeLike
Oh wow I forgot to add. In 1892 the SUpreme court ruled America and Christian nation. I wonder…..http://christianheritagefellowship.com/supreme-court-declares-america-christian/
LikeLike
What a pointless and vapid article. A religion is always best demonstrated in the life of its founder. Jesus Christ was a moral, compassionate teacher who preached non-violence and love for even ones enemies. Mohammed was a brutal sociopath with a penchant for prepubescent wives and a doctrine of hate and violence for all but fellow Muslims. As such no violent act can ever rightly be called “Christian” whereas a Muslim waging violent jihad is simply being faithful to their ideological roots.
LikeLike
Are you serious? Your story has to be one of the most insane things I have read in years. What you describe as “Christian wars” aren’t Christian at all. And America is not a Christian country. Your spin implies a lot of untruth and you should be ashamed of yourself.
LikeLike
@ Ben H
It is supposed to sound insane. I am mocking a style of thinking that many Americans apply to “Muslims” and “Blacks”. I did that by applying it to Christians, an in-group for most Americans. I flipped the script on Islamophobia to show how nutty and hysterical it is.
LikeLike
@Ant
Yet Jesus teachings are new testament not old. Using the new testament as the sole teaching of Christianity is deceit and denial of the actual teachings, which in most cases were no different from Muslim teachings. White Americans have little or no knowledge of muhammad or the actual teaching yet Continue to spin half truths and lies.
LikeLike
@Ben H
That depends solely on how one defines a “Christian Country”. By definition a Christian country is one in which the laws and values are shaped by said religion. So based on that alone then the USA is.
https://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/america.aspx?article=defining_a_christian_nation
LikeLike
@Kiwi lol your insults actually make me laugh.
First of all, if you didn’t know, the Crusades were a military campaign. Therefore it is safe to assume that they were an act of war. So why were these acts of war sanctioned? The Siege of Jerusalem was part of a military conflict which took place in the year 637 between the Byzantine Empire and the Rashidun Caliphate. It began when the Rashidun army, under the command of Abu Ubaidah, besieged Jerusalem in November 636. After six months, the Patriarch Sophronius agreed to surrender, on condition that he submit only to the Rashidun caliph. In April 637, Caliph Umar traveled to Jerusalem in person to receive the submission of the city. The Patriarch thus surrendered to him. The Muslim conquest of the city solidified the Arab control over Palestine, control which would not again be threatened until the First Crusade in the late 11th century. Thus, it came to be regarded as a holy site by Islam, as well as by Christianity and Judaism. Why do I point this out? To show it was an act of war after an act of war had already been committed against them. Between the 7th and 10th century the Muslims had conquered half of the Christian world, this included countries in which Christianity had been established for centuries, such as Egypt, southern France, southern Italy, Sicily, Spain, Syria, Turkey, etc. By the middle of the 11th century, Christianity had formally split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, the Turks defeated the latter at the Battle of Manzikert. This left Constantinople exposed to attack from Muslims. Meanwhile, Christians were being ambushed during their pilgrimages to Jerusalem.
Again, why do I point all of this out. It is not just the Christians that can have a finger pointed at them for attacks both militarily or civilian wise. I am not justifying it in the sense of I actually believe it is okay, that many people dying is not okay and nor is it justifiable in the Bible. What I am doing is saying that if you are willing to ignore what Islam has done to civilians, (which I am implying that it is okay to you), then the same can be said for Christianity. And if you are not justifying the Islamic actions, then I say to you that, no, the crusades were not okay. Like I said earlier, either both can be justified, or neither. But you can’t excuse one, and condemn the other.
And also, it wasn’t just the crusades in which there were civilian casualties. Yes, maybe they had some of the worst, but it wasn’t the only…and no I am not using this reasoning to justify it.
@sharinalr
Your original questions as requested, although I should not have to go back and find them considering I was implying you completely confused me by your long and boring posts that I thought I answered but apparently didn’t and now you’re saying things like I don’t have an ability to comprehend correctly, but aside from that here they are.
What do you call religiously tolerant? And what say you of laws not only mentioning God but are mimics of biblical commandments? For example marriage is between man and woman.
So I will answer them again.
What I call religiously tolerant. The government cannot deny you your fundamental/inalienable rights. Whether or not other extreme people discriminate against you, that doesn’t change the fact that the government cannot. “More deflection on your part. You claimed they could not be discriminated against which still remains false.” Again, discrimination of fundamental rights, I’ve made that very clear. Unless you have proof of the government explicitly denying fundamental rights of Muslims, all you have proven to me is radical people discriminate against others, which happens all over the world.
“That does not change the fact that they are still on the books and can be enforced if a state so chooses to.” No, that is incorrect. If the federal government outlaws it, it is automatically nullified because the federal government has power over the states’ government. I have been saying this whole time that separation of church and state is exactly what you said. There is no church involvement in the U.S. Again, they are not Christian laws, you obviously did not look at the website I gave you. They are clearly secular laws. The U.S. Constitution is a wholly secular document. It contains no mention of Christianity or Jesus Christ. In fact, the Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws “respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” and in Article VI, which prohibits “religious tests” for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian and thus the laws are not based on Christian teachings. If you take some of Islam’s commandments, not all but some, those could be used for the foundation of a secular society. So since there is no mention of Christianity or Jesus, where is your basis that we are not Islamic or Jewish per se? On the Supreme Court Case ruling, here is what that judge later explained by what he meant. “But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.’ Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.”
On to gay marriage. What does how recent the laws were put in place have to do with it? And yes, not nationally, but as a majority, it is legal. It does not show Christian influence. The traditional schools of Islamic law based on Qur’anic verses and hadith consider homosexual acts a punishable crime and a sin, and influenced by Islamic scholars such as Imam Malik and Imam Shafi. So since there is no mention of Christianity or Jesus in the Constitution, the supreme law of the U.S. where is your basis that it was Christianity?
Those were your original questions which I have answered again. Any remaining thoughts on those, please make it very clear and separate your ideas by paragraphs. Any new ideas you have, please state clearly and separate by paragraphs. If I am unsure of or confused by the point you are trying to get at, I will completely ignore the topic. It should not be my job to have to go back time and time again if I am supposedly completely misunderstanding you. For the sake of time and efficiency, you should have just restated all of your points like I asked, because in the end, you know the points you are trying to make better than I do especially when I am apparently having trouble understanding them.
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
It is better my posts be long, boring, and accurate than long and missing the points such as yours. At any rate considering you are the one confused it would be necessary for you to go back to clear up your confusion.
“What I call religiously tolerant. The government cannot deny you your fundamental/inalienable rights.”—Your original answer to that question is as follows: “We are accepting of all religions and you cannot be discriminated against for your religion according to the first amendment. “ Trying to change your answer and perfect it in a manner that keeps you from being wrong will not change what you originally said, nor will it change the fundamental fact that a law on the books does not change the act of discrimination from happening. Do you understand? Your statement implied that there is no way for them to ever be discriminated against (by anyone) because the first amendment stops that. False
“Unless you have proof of the government explicitly denying fundamental rights of Muslims, all you have proven to me is radical people discriminate against others, which happens all over the world.”—Why would I need to provide proof for something that is not my claim? Your claim was the one that got disputed. You are simply looking for an alternate outlet. Even your alternate route can be disputed in one of the links I provided above. It speaks on Muslim discrimination cases. Cases that are taken to court because they are in violation the first Amendment. I will happily quote it seeing as you failed to read it “Thomas Perez, the assistant U.S. attorney general for civil rights, told the panel that anti-Muslim sentiment has brought a surge last May in the number of federal discrimination cases involving zoning boards and other local authorities that have acted to prevent mosques from opening in their communities.” Go ahead and spin another story to avoid being wrong.
“No, that is incorrect. If the federal government outlaws it, it is automatically nullified because the federal government has power over the states’ government.”—Wrong. A state can enforce it, but it can be overturned if it goes to higher courts. It is not automatically nullified.
“I have been saying this whole time that separation of church and state is exactly what you said.”—No, you have not been saying that the whole time. This is your idea of what church and state means and I quote “If we were a Christian state, it would be illegal to even practice another religion in the U.S. because everyone would be forced to be Christian.” In fact you only seem to claim to be on the same page as me after you are corrected. Another thing is the constitution does not have to explicitly mention Christianity or Jesus Christ to follow biblical commandments and laws(something I said for the umpteenth time). As to the supreme court ruling I already knew what the judge meant and if you knew what Christian nation actually meant then you would know what he is saying is in reference to the true definition of a christian nation. I explained that to another above with a link for clarity on the matter.
“What does how recent the laws were put in place have to do with it?”—It has to do with how said laws were widely and for a long time established foundations of bible commandments and ideas. The constitution was established a long time ago and yet these type laws and ideas were on the book just as long. That is the point. Heck if I repeat the point anymore I am just going to have to provide links to were I said it in the first place.
“It does not show Christian influence.”—Do you realize that it is from the bible that people got the idea or definition of what constitutes marriage? That is why it was illegal, because the bible viewed it so.
“where is your basis that it was Christianity”—Again go back and actually read what I said. Many laws follow biblical commandments and teachings. I said this several times now. Trying to hold on to it not saying Christianity or Jesus is faulty and is false. It also deflects from my actual claim or questions by trying to put sole law focus on the constitution. I said laws. You act as if states don’t have their own laws.
“Any remaining thoughts on those, please make it very clear and separate your ideas by paragraphs.”—Not only were they separated in paragraphs, but they also quoted what you said to avoid allowing you to back peddle. So it is obvious that clarity of my thoughts and ideas are not the issue so much as your inability to successful comprehend what you read. It is not my job to restate them and because you are the only one with the issue it is then your job to go figure out what is going on rather than creating straw men arguments and deflections.
LikeLike
As to the quote you presented of Justice Brewer, I note such convince in cutting off the full quote in favor of the portion that supports your belief. Allow me to quote in full:
“But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that ‘Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.’ Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Nevertheless, we constantly speak of this republic as a Christian Nation–in fact, as the leading Christian Nation of the world. This popular use of the term certainly has significance. It is not a mere creation of the imagination. It is not a term of derision but has substantial basis–one which justifies it’s use.
LikeLike
convenience*
LikeLike
@sharinalr Or maybe since I keep getting “confused” on the same topics, maybe it is your job to clarify yourself for me.
“Trying to change your answer and perfect it in a manner that keeps you from being wrong will not change what you originally said, nor will it change the fundamental fact that a law on the books does not change the act of discrimination from happening. Do you understand? Your statement implied that there is no way for them to ever be discriminated against (by anyone) because the first amendment stops that. False”. I thought I clarified for you what I meant in the first place. “I didn’t say or think you did meant it in a “Haha” way”. That is what you said when I was clarifying myself in the very beginning, which you must also not have read because I maintained from the very beginning that it was meant as a fundamental right, very clearly if I might add, which you did not seem to understand. I said discriminated against, not discriminated against in any way shape or form, so that is a false conclusion, also considering you are not me, it is sort of odd you automatically know what I meant on every level with a sort of vague statement such as “discriminated against”. Discrimination according to the dictionary means “the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things”. According to our laws here in the U.S., no one has been discriminated on the idea of fundamental rights for their religion from what I know. I meant it from the beginning as fundamental rights protected under the constitution since that is part of what we have been arguing about this whole time, the laws of the US, correct?
“Why would I need to provide proof for something that is not my claim?” Maybe if you would’ve just restated your claim since you confused me, I wouldn’t be and I could actually address your claim since I get everything wrong apparently. If you could just retype the link so I can look at it, that would be great.
“Wrong. A state can enforce it, but it can be overturned if it goes to higher courts. It is not automatically nullified.” Wrong. The Supremacy Clause, which is the provision in Article Six, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, establishes the United States Constitution, federal statutes, and treaties as “the supreme law of the land.” It provides that these are the highest form of law in the United States legal system, and mandates that all state judges must follow federal law when a conflict arises between federal law and either a state constitution or state law of any state. So therefore, I do believe, it is automatically nullified and forces state judges to comply with the federal law if there is a contradiction. And either way, if the law the state has goes against the Constitution isn’t nullified right away, it will be proven wrong in a court of law later on, so it will still be nullified either way, whether automatically from the beginning, or later on.
“No, you have not been saying that the whole time. This is your idea of what church and state means and I quote “If we were a Christian state, it would be illegal to even practice another religion in the U.S. because everyone would be forced to be Christian.” I have maintained from the very beginning separation of church and state would mean the church has an influence on the laws. My bad, I didn’t research what the true definition of a christian state meant. “Again go back and actually read what I said. Many laws follow biblical commandments and teachings.” But, the same ten commandments are preached in Judaism and similar ones in Islam, those are both very good and similar commandments for a society. “Another thing is the constitution does not have to explicitly mention Christianity or Jesus Christ to follow biblical commandments and laws(something I said for the umpteenth time).” I know you have said it a lot. But if you say it doesn’t have to mention christianity or Jesus to be christian, then in the same way, it could be also jewish, or Islamic in not mentioning Islam or Muhammad, because both of those have similar laws. Now, I am not denying that they are not derived from Christianity, because most founding fathers were Christian. However, that does not change the fact that the laws are wholly secular, there is no mention of religion in the laws that I know of, other than the holding public office one which I have just proven to you can’t be a law. They have just borrowed a moral framework from religion that is taught in other religions as well, there is no mention of Christian laws. They are wholly secular, they just believed that those laws happened to be the best for a free society.
“Do you realize that it is from the bible that people got the idea or definition of what constitutes marriage? That is why it was illegal, because the bible viewed it so.” Yes, but again, it is not ONLY christianity, there are others that would say that as well, for example Judaism.
“Again go back and actually read what I said. Many laws follow biblical commandments and teachings. I said this several times now. Trying to hold on to it not saying Christianity or Jesus is faulty and is false. It also deflects from my actual claim or questions by trying to put sole law focus on the constitution. I said laws. You act as if states don’t have their own laws.” Again I will express that it could have been any religion for that matter, like Judaism, the exact same ten commandments. And also, since they were “Christian” laws, according to the New Testament, the period also which the constitution was written under, Jesus says anger and lust are a sin. So where are those laws in the Constitution? I never said states didn’t have their own laws, but the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and you have yet to give me a law not outlawed by the Constitution that shows a discrimination for religion.
“So it is obvious that clarity of my thoughts and ideas are not the issue so much as your inability to successful comprehend what you read.” But if I have been wrong on every single one, one not only has to question my comprehension, but your clarification, because in an argument, I have never been told I have been wrong on literally every single point.
Okay, but the point remains, that they are moral laws. There is no mention of religion one way or another, they are strictly moral laws that happen to come from Christianity.
LikeLike
@ Baddioes 123
“Or maybe since I keep getting “confused” on the same topics, maybe it is your job to clarify yourself for me.”—There are several posts filled with clarification. At this point it is no longer my job to do this for you. Trying to make it someone else problem to fix and cater is ridiculous. When you cut your finger on paper do you then blame the paper?
” I thought I clarified for you what I meant in the first place etc.”—I just finished quoting what you said in the first place and in the first place and here is where your follow up clarification tactic falls short. You claimed that could not be discriminated against according to the first Amendment. This does not say who they can not be discriminated by. Even in following up “clarification” you never said who can not discriminate them or who can. When I presented contradictory evidence is when you decided to claim “The government can’t.” I even pointed out to you some posts up the same thing and here you are trying to claim to be clear when in fact you never was on this simple aspect. What this became is your switch the goal post moment and think yourself witty enough to slide in change without notice.
“I didn’t say or think you did meant it in a “Haha” way”. “—Do you know what “haha” means? It is an indication of laughter in my book and my response was letting you know that I did not think you were joking in your response. Do you understand?
“I said discriminated against, not discriminated against in any way shape or form, so that is a false conclusion, also considering you are not me, it is sort of odd you automatically know what I meant on every level with a sort of vague statement such as “discriminated against””—I did not say you said that, but I was clear that you implied such. I don’t need to be you to see clearly what you were implying and it is likely you implied it because you thought you would be able to prove it or at the very most I would not be able to.
Discrimination has a few meanings. You managed to quote one. Here is a link to familiarize yourself with others http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discrimination. Even by your own definition Muslims fit into that category.
“According to our laws here in the U.S., no one has been discriminated on the idea of fundamental rights for their religion from what I know. “—You mean from what you choose to know. I quoted and printed proof of that. You just would rather ignore it. This makes me wonder if you know what fundamental rights are. They are not just about religion alone. So basically what I get from this is you want to now try and single out other fundamental rights as a effort to bypass the actual Muslim discrimination that is going on? If a government is denying the right to build a Mosque because of Islamic religion then not only is that discrimination of religious rights, but it is simply discrimination.
“Wrong. The Supremacy Clause, which is the provision in Article Six, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, establishes the United States Constitution, federal statutes, and treaties as “the supreme law of the land.””—How does it feel to know you just proved my point? Did you enjoy wasting the typing time?
“But, the same ten commandments are preached in Judaism and similar ones in Islam, those are both very good and similar commandments for a society.”—-Yet I am not referring to only the ten commandments, now am i?
“I know you have said it a lot. But if you say it doesn’t have to mention christianity.”—You mean similar commandments? Then present such similar commandment that so happens to be one of the U.S laws? At any rate the point still remains the same. They follow christian commandments and they are build on christian foundation. So trying to pass it as what it could be is not what it is considering all of them were here before a wave of any other religion was present.
“However, that does not change the fact that the laws are wholly secular, there is no mention of religion in the laws that I know of, other than the holding public office one which I have just proven to you can’t be a law.”—You seem to not know a lot don’t you? Have you ever consider researching state laws? A lot of them actual do mention God and other religious references. You have not proven that it can’t be a law. It is a law because it is still on the books. You just presented something that can nullify it, but before it can be nullified it must go through the court system and if it could not be a law it would not get that far.
“gain I will express that it could have been any religion for that matter, like Judaism, the exact same ten commandments. And also, since they were “Christian” laws, according to the New Testament, the period also which the constitution was written under, Jesus says anger and lust are a sin. So where are those laws in the Constitution? “—And I will express that it could not have been any religion. Was Judaism religion prominent or part of society when it was written? No it was not, but Christianity was and it is a clear fact for anyone who knows history that the laws were based on it. I said many laws not all. Again with the straw men.
“I never said states didn’t have their own laws, but the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and you have yet to give me a law not outlawed by the Constitution that shows a discrimination for religion.”—Why are you always trying to get me to present a claim or prove one I never made? My claim was as follows “In some states you can not even hold political positions unless you are Christians.” You claimed there were no such laws, did you not? So where are you now getting this idea that I must provide for you laws that show religious discrimination? I never made such claim and yet like a washing machine you are on rinse and repeat of something I said several times was not my claim and one that you can read is not my claim. Yet you wonder why I state you have reading comprehension issues? Even if the constitution is the supreme law it does not change what I actually did claim or the fact that you have not really been able to disprove it. These things are on the books of states whether you like it or not.
“But if I have been wrong on every single one, one not only has to question my comprehension, but your clarification, because in an argument, I have never been told I have been wrong on literally every single point.”—If you are banking it on no one every telling you that you were wrong, then you either have not been in debates much or your time spent with people telling you that you are right has warped your mind. Debating outside of your comfort zone helps you to get better and become more aware of certain things. Misunderstandings happen, but blaming it on others clarification because you refuse to believe it is you will do more harm than good.
“Okay, but the point remains, that they are moral laws. There is no mention of religion one way or another, they are strictly moral laws that happen to come from Christianity.”—There was never a point to be made on whether they were moral or not. Not only that laws do mention religion. Just because you cherry pick which ones you want to read does not mean it is not out there.
LikeLike
@sharinalr Look, this post I am not going to debate anything, because even on my last post, you have said I have some of my points were STILL not what you were arguing about. So I am giving you one last chance. You will post all of your ORIGINAL points, each separated and stated clearly. If you fail to do so in any way shape or form, I will not respond to you. If you insult me in any way shape or form, I will not respond to you. You are correct, I am starting to get a little fed up with you wasting my time. I am telling you right now, this is your last chance, or I am done. If I am misinterpreting your points 5 and 6 times after I have read all of your posts, then I am totally stupid (which isn’t the case considering I am a 4.0 student and got a 28 on my ACT in my freshman year of high school) or it is a combination of my misunderstanding and your misguiding. I don’t care if you think you’ve made yourself clear, you haven’t if I’ve read all of your posts 20 times and still don’t know what you’re saying. You give me your original points now, or I am done. I really didn’t even want to respond to the original posts or your posts in the first place but I decided to give a little more than minimal effort into my posts, which I now regret. I’m telling you, again, this is your last chance to tell me what your original points are before I leave.
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
Then you will not be responding to this because my next question is going to be if you can read? In the paragraph above I not only told you my points, but actually went on to quote atleast one verbatim. I have always stated my points several times over and you have always just went on a rant to focus on what you concluded my point was. It is called missing the point.
“then I am totally stupid (which isn’t the case considering I am a 4.0 student and got a 28 on my ACT in my freshman year of high school) or it is a combination of my misunderstanding and your misguiding.”—Oh it is obvious that you are a product of the American educational system. High school is not that darn hard and the curriculum fails to adequately teach simple comprehension skills. At any rate, your problem is and has been that you are creating a point you believe I am arguing and asking me to prove it, even after I repeatedly told you that it is not my point and RESTATING my point no less. You can read the point 20 times and still not connect the dots. I can tell you several times and it still not dawn on you because you do not have the ability to comprehend. That is not my problem but yours.
LikeLike
@sharinalr Alright, I’m done and I’m glad. If you stated your points so much I don’t know why I was getting them wrong (maybe because you change them or you bring up so many new points to argue about I get lost in all the nonsense or you quite frankly suck at stating a point). And apparently its just too hard for you to restate each point without all the extra gibberish (again one has to wonder why…maybe because there is so many?) which just proves you’re lazy and not trying to actually help your argument because if you had just restated them instead of making me read the same things 20 times over you would have actually been able to prove I was talking about the wrong subjects, if I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying, and you tell me to read the same thing over and over again, I am still going to misinterpret it. I would think that would be obvious to someone who is apparently as smart as you. And talk about original points, my original point was to prove these numbers wrong…which they are because of the two world wars because America is not Christian according to our law, which I have confirmed with several other people. So my original point still remains and you have still yet to prove America is a Christian nation according to our laws. So you have not even addressed my original point in a sense.
“Oh it is obvious that you are a product of the American educational system.” Yup, 14th in the world…your point?
“High school is not that darn hard” It is when you’re taking college classes.
I asked you to just state a point without all the extra, and you couldn’t do it. You had to go into all of this stuff about how I can’t comprehend you etc when you could of just had patience and restated it like most normal christians do (which you claim you are). Instead, you had to get an attitude about it so I am done. Have fun believing the fallacy of America being a Christian nation, just don’t try to spread that lie. May God bless you and provide you with safety and health etc. Adios!
LikeLike
@Baddioes 123
And here you said you would not respond. I guess that was a lie.
“If you stated your points so much I don’t know why I was getting them wrong (maybe because you change them or you bring up so many new points to argue about I get lost in all the nonsense or you quite frankly suck at stating a point).”—Or it could be as I stated repeatedly. You don’t have reading comprehension. With out this key factor it is really hard for a person to grasp a point let alone Know it when they see it. Not only that much of the extra stuff brought in was you. You tried every angle possible to get around being wrong. Moving the goal posts as Kiwi pointed out. It was only when backed into a corner that you either repeated what I already had said or decided to avoid the questions altogether.
” And apparently its just too hard for you to restate each point without all the extra gibberish (again one has to wonder why…maybe because there is so many?) “—What sense does it make to restate a point when there are 8 posts above stating those same points? I personally had only 4 points total. All the extra gibberish was what you added to deflect.
“which just proves you’re lazy and not trying to actually help your argument because if you had just restated them instead of making me read the same things 20 times over you would have actually been able to prove I was talking about the wrong subjects, if I’m misinterpreting what you’re saying, and you tell me to read the same thing over and over again, I am still going to misinterpret it.I would think that would be obvious to someone who is apparently as smart as you.”—-Actually this exchange is only proof of your laziness and your ability to lie. You spent most of the time asking me to prove or disprove YOUR claims (many of which you concluded I made). You are the confused one yet you want me to go back and point out to you where your confusion is. You are literately whining about it. This alone not only shows laziness, but an inability to think for oneself. Though the absolute worst part is that I quoted and explained. So really it comes down to can you read? Reading comprehension is one issue, but I have to wonder if you can read period if you are missing quotes with quotation marks and verbatim of what I said or claimed. My points.
You then went on to say you read my posts 20 times, but I wonder how so considering you claimed to a) be busy and b) that they were so long and boring that you got confused. The mere fact that you are asking me to disprove or prove your claims is a sign that you are lazy. You made several claims (many of which you concluded I made) and all you wanted to do was sit back while someone provides to you things to prove you wrong. Yet when proved wrong you just switched goal posts. I basically was doing your work and explaining it to you. In a few noticeable cases you proved my case for me. It was very obvious that you were never going to get it with your lack of reading comprehension and that no matter how much I pointed out the issue you just were not smart enough to get it. For example I told you that you have reading comprehension for about 3 posts now and you are still confused on what the problem is.
“And talk about original points, my original point was to prove these numbers wrong…which they are because of the two world wars because America is not Christian according to our law, which I have confirmed with several other people.”—-You tried to make several points in your original posts. That was only one. No one said your numbers were wrong or anything about those wars being Christian wars, so why address something that a person does not disagree with? Do you realize how dumb that sounds? You were wrong about the point of the post, You were wrong about Muslims not being discriminated against, and you were wrong about America laws not being influenced by christian commandments and foundations, you were wrong about god and religion not being in laws (all my points by the way), but no one said a thing to you about you being wrong about the world wars not being christian wars. This is what I mean by deflections, goal post changing, and reading comprehension. A person disagrees with you on something and you take it to mean they disagree on other things (usually things you feel you can not be proven wrong in), yet the kicker is no one said anything about it. It does nothing but make you look desperate to have that one thing to say you were right. According to the definition of a Christian nation (Link above) America is. 1892 Supreme ruling supports that same definition in Judge Brewer’s explanation. The reason that definition applies has nothing to do with what the laws says and everything to to with the foundation and commandments that are so heavily intertwined in those laws and influence them.
“Yup, 14th in the world…your point?”—-That it explains why you have reading comprehension issues and why you expect people to show you everything. No child left behind.
“It is when you’re taking college classes.”—-Those classes were not that hard either.
“I asked you to just state a point without all the extra, and you couldn’t do it. You had to go into all of this stuff about how I can’t comprehend you etc when you could of just had patience and restated it like most normal christians do (which you claim you are).”—–You did not ask me. Asking me is “could you please restate your point because I am not getting it?” You stated “So I am giving you one last chance. You will post all of your ORIGINAL points, each separated and stated clearly.” This is you telling me what I am going to do or else. Do you think if you shame me that I will just cower over and do? Funny. It is not that I could not do it, but that I refuse to do it. After 8 posts of the same points being repeated, and you still confused it became obvious that you are either willfully obtuse or seriously have reading comprehension issues. I claim to be a Christian, but I never claimed to be a normal christian (as if they are monolithic) and I most certainly never claimed to be a fool.
“Instead, you had to get an attitude about it so I am done. Have fun believing the fallacy of America being a Christian nation, just don’t try to spread that lie. May God bless you and provide you with safety and health etc. Adios!”—-By definition it is https://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/america.aspx?article=defining_a_christian_nation), so at what point did it become a lie? Considering you said this above “My bad, I didn’t research what the true definition of a christian state meant.” It is pretty obvious that you don’t do the research to know what is or is not true. Can I assume your credibility on all that you said is shot? Should I see you as telling the truth and Judge Brewer as a liar? You know…the one you quoted half of in efforts to erase what he fully said. 🙂
Bottom line is you leaving this conversation is less about my points you claim I did not clarify, although evidence shows otherwise, and more about the fact that I was now questioning your points for you to provided proof.
LikeLike
Many of the Christian wars you speak were not Christian wars. Vietnam, Korea? Christianity played no part. In many of these wars. We separate church and state in this country.
LikeLike
@Subu
And another response that fails to read the point of the post. SMH.
LikeLike
Interesting comments here. Christianity versus Islam? People will justify their beliefs and there lies the root of unbearable stink – faith. Take Greed, mix it with a powerful demagogue (Putin, Khomenei, Sarah Palin, Stalin, Adolf Hitler, GWBush, Ben Laden, Saudi Oil (companies are people too) Ted Cruz and so forth), let them mix it with hate for a made up enemy (country, religion, man) and you heat up the most primitive instincts of mankind to do your bidding in wars and slaughter. Religion is pure man made mind control and never had another function and the brutality of Radicals in itself is Religion as much as Buddhism. 99 of 100 people are followers and will attach to a senseless, brutal, mindless, sick cause, preached by a demagogue like flies to horse dung. And they will justify it. With garbage about Christianity versus Islam or such stupidity (they will attack us, if we don’t attack them).
And don’t forget, you always need the enemy, or they don’t follow you. See Christianity versus Islam – the Muslims hate the Christians, because the Christians hate the Muslims – purfect and we are all buying at Walmart useless Chinese crap, which they use to build up the biggest military this world has ever seen – wait for 10 years, kabbum. But no war has ever made a dent in human population. And there is the real issue, all humanity has to live (or get extinct with) total overpopulation of this poor little planet and consequent destruction of rainforests and oceans. And all we see is tiny enemies with our tiny little brains made to follow leaders with tinier brains, infected by greed and lust for power. Fight your own faith and your urge to justify, think – don’t parrot.
LikeLike
This is one of the most pathetic attempts to whitewash Islam, by playing loose and easy with historical facts, that I have ever come across. You simply ignored most of Islam’s history to come up with this biased nonsense. Please recall that whatever part of the globe Islam entered, aside from the Arabian peninsula, it took over by force, at the cost of millions of lives. From Spain and Morocco to eastern Europe and India and Indonesia, this was the story. An estimated 80 million died during the conquest of India alone. And this does not even touch upon the brutal Muslim slave trade from Africa, which may have caused 50 million deaths along with the misery of those who actually survived their enslavement. and have you forgotten the Aramean and Armenian genocides? And let’s not forget that Muslims attempted to conquer Vienna as recently as 1683, for no reason but to expand Islam.
As for the atrocities you attribute to Christianity – what a reach! You really have to be a mental gymnast of some sort. Many of those wars had NOTHING to do with Christianity at all. I mean the Napoleonic wars, Mexican Revolution, the two World Wars, the Korean War, etc.
By the way, your comparison of murder rates is a joke, since most “honor” murders in Muslim countries are not treated as murders. In fact, most are not even reported.
In short, you are either a non-Muslim with a dhimmi attitude or a Muslim apologist without scruples. Either way you are a shameless liar and spin doctor. Learn the truth about Islam’s bloody history before you attempt aritcles like this.
LikeLike
Reading is so fundamental. It is almost sad the number that comment and can not utilize it. Then they end up being a perfect example of the post.
LikeLike
QuiCreva
Please stop using Muslim slave trade as an Muslim death unless you are going to tact that on to Christianity as well. It is lazy and dishonest to ignore the Christian hand.
LikeLike
To Lord of Milkwood:
“This post is a parody of how racists view blacks and Muslims. It has nothing to do with the merits of Christianity – Abagond is himself a Christian.”
I think he was serious although he would best answer that…but for some reason he left out the Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Turks (which was religiously motivated..) and the deaths caused by the Islamic slave trade.He certainly knows about both as he has covered them in other posts so why leave them out..? Also why the does he pin the deaths during the reconquista solely due to Christians…? Does he have a problem with Christian Europeans resisting imperialism…?
As for his final statement:
“Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. ”
Hitler privately was highly contemptuous of Christianity and actually stated he would have preferred Germans to be Islamic since he felt it was a more warlike religion, whereas the 9/11 killers clearly felt they would attacking the World Trade Center and the Pentagon for religious reasons.
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
Sharinalr said:
“Please stop using Muslim slave trade as an Muslim death unless you are going to tact that on to Christianity as well. It is lazy and dishonest to ignore the Christian hand.”
Then was Abagond being dishonest since he mentioned deaths in the slave trade (and slavery) due to Christians but does not mention deaths due to Islamic slavery or trade.
“1451-1870: European slave trade: 17.3m
1600-1900: Caribbean: 10.0m slaves worked to death”
LikeLike
Uncle Milton
No because not only was his point clear in the post, but was equally clear in the comment section.
People who happily have commented and pulled out the oneside of Muslim slavery are also clear in that they see it solely as Muslim.
Any other questions?
LikeLike
“the 9/11 killers clearly felt they would attacking the World Trade Center and the Pentagon for religious reasons.”—-You know what they felt how? Did they leave a diary or are you empathic?
LikeLike
@ Uncle Milton
The Armenian genocide was part of the Ottoman Empire’s democide:
“1110-1918: Ottoman Empire: 3.9m”
They killed more than just Armenians.
As to Muslim slavery, that was left out by my source on democides, R.J. Rummel, at least as a separate line item. It should be added. I doubt it would shift the overall numbers much, and certainly not the conclusion, which does not depend on precise statistics.
I should do a post on the “250 million” that Muslims have killed, or whatever number it is you see repeated by Islamophobic websites.
As to Hitler, if you want to get into his personal beliefs, then, to be fair, you should do the same for all other leaders. My guess is that most of them were philosophically neither Christian nor Muslim but Machiavellian – no different than, say, Obama.
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
“You know what they felt how?”
There were fatwas released before the attack:
“Three years before the September 11 attacks, Al-Qaeda released a Fatwa, stating “We — with God’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.”
And multiple declarations in the aftermath by bin Laden and al-Zawahiri:
.
“In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
“Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory” [Quran 22:39]
“Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan.”[Quran 4:76]”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
So unless you believe that the motivations of the direct operatives responsible for the 9/11 attacks were totally separate from those who organized, funded, directed, and lead the operation I think it’s clear it’s clear there was a religious motivation (along with other reasons..).
LikeLike
To Abagond:
“As to Hitler, if you want to get into his personal beliefs, then, to be fair, you should do the same for all other leaders.My guess is that most of them were philosophically neither Christian nor Muslim but Machiavellian…”
Well here we are in agreement. I can also agree that Christian Europe before the Renaissance and Reformation was generally more violent and less tolerant than the Islamic world.
LikeLike
To Kiwi:
“Arguably, most Christian and Muslim rulers seem to have had greater reverence for money and power than for God. They used/abused religion as a tool for controlling the masses.”
True, although I think the very bloody 30 years war in Europe was heavily a religious conflict.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
I asked you if you know what they felt and frankly your quotes do not give an eye opener into you or anyone else knowing what they felt. You can be fearful and still carry out acts.
Frankly your quotes are no different than group prayer before a battle. For examples soldiers prayed before going to war, but were they going to war in the name of God? Leaders have stated we must fight Muslims to save the Christians. Would that also be a religious war?
I have read things that Osama said himself and planned out from his writings and it point to more a political matter than a religious one.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
As a side note if you are going to quote from the Quran please get it from the Quran. News outlets like to add there own touch to it. For example:
[Quran 22:39] Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory. http://quran.com/22
[Quran 4:76] Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah , and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak. http://quran.com/4
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
Who said
I asked you if you know what they felt and frankly your quotes do not give an eye opener into you or anyone else knowing what they felt.
For examples soldiers prayed before going to war, but were they going to war in the name of God?
Here’s one of the quotes again:
call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it.
You are of course free to believe that religion had nothing or little to do with the actions on 9/11 but the words of Al Qaeda operatives indicate otherwise to me. It’s sort of like arguing if the crusades had a religious motivation or not – such as dwelling on issues or plunder and power and ignoring the invocations from the Catholic church.
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
“As a side note if you are going to quote from the Quran please get it from the Quran. News outlets like to add there own touch to it. For example..”
I was quoting directly from the text in the Guardian article which supposedly a direct translation of Osama bin Laden’s translated letter (The Guardian is a British newspaper which tends to sympathize with the Islamic world..). Supposedly the translations were affirmed by Islamists in Britain. And for that matter I don’t see that the translation you provided was markedly different than the one provided by the Guardian. Religious texts are always subject to interpretation as you probably well know.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
You are free to quote the quote as many times as you want, but it still does not answer the question of how they felt. By that logic you know how I feel about rainbows or cats based solely on what I choose to display in text. (FYI I say aww to cats but really just don’t like them).
“You are of course free to believe that religion had nothing or little to do with the actions on 9/11 but the words of Al Qaeda operatives indicate otherwise to me.”—-If I am not mistaken I did not say it had nothing to do with it and I never stated how much I believe religion played in it, but I certainly do not believe it plays as much of a part as most people seem to believe. Even in the link you provided his big beef was more a political one than a religious one and we can most certain look as writings from Osama and his generals to confirm this political beef.
“Religious texts are always subject to interpretation as you probably well know.”—I know this very well, but I am also well aware that news outlets love to sensationalize information. Which is actually what they did in the quotes you presented.
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
You are free to quote the quote as many times as you want, but it still does not answer the question of how they felt. By that logic you know how I feel about rainbows or cats based solely on what I choose to display in text.
Really uhh…rainbows aren’t sentient and I am quite sure that the 9/11 foot soldiers were capable of much higher intelligence and had a much greater understanding of the directives of al Qaeda than cats.
We just disagree.. that’s fine.
Which is actually what they did in the quotes you presented.
Which were part of the Osama bin Laden’s open letter supposedly vetted by Islamist scholars…. if you know of an Arabic scholar who believes that the letter was misreprented and has an alternate translation then I’ll read it.
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
You are free to quote the quote as many times as you want, but it still does not answer the question of how they felt.
From a four-page document, written in Arabic, found in the baggage of the suspected ringleader behind the carnage, Mohamed Atta.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/30/terrorism.september113
Whole lot of God in that text.. reminds me of the Papal Bull’s issued during the crusades.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
I am not sure you are reading what I said. I never once said rainbows were a sentient, but I did say “By that logic you know how I feel about rainbows.” Emphasis on the how I feel. Not really sure how you concluded some idea that I think rainbows feel. Same with your logic behind cats. IT is not about how the cats feel either. Please reread the response.
It is quite obvious we disagree. No need to reiterate.
“Which were part of the Osama bin Laden’s open letter supposedly vetted by Islamist scholars…. if you know of an Arabic scholar who believes that the letter was misreprented and has an alternate translation then I’ll read it.”—Let us try reading what I said and not what you seem to feel I said. I said the parts you quoted were sensationalized. That is quite obvious seeing as the Quran itself says one thing and what they added on the news outlet are another. I said little on the letter as a whole. I would appreciate it if you do not misrepresent my argument.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
“Whole lot of God in that text.. reminds me of the Papal Bull’s issued during the crusades”—-There is also a whole lot of political outrage and the involvement of America and it’s killing of their people.
LikeLike
@Uncle Milton
Just read your link and it does not really change much of what I have said and will likely continue to say. It really is no different than a religious soldier praying before going to war. The difference….this guy wrote it down.
The mere fact that he wrote some of this stuff down is suspect in itself. I mean who writes down something as simple as remembering to smile? Though it still does not tell me or the next person how he felt. You are trying to apply a feeling that you think he has. Yet from the writing alone I gather he was empty. Especially seeing as he had to write down to look happy.
LikeLike
@Lord of Mirkwood
Exactly. Realistically christian soldiers pray all the time and if they are Mormon you can believe they are praying every second. They pray for safety and comfort and guidance before going into a war zone and killing people, but why do we not view them praying as religiously motivated, but let a Muslim pray beforehand for comfort and guidance then oh no we got religious motivation over here.
Is it possible we are being programmed to hate Islamic religion the same way the media is programming us to hate blacks or buy foreign products?
LikeLike
@Kiwi
Exactly 100 times over. So if prayer before war makes it a jihad then when can we start acknowledging Americans jihad on everybody else?
LikeLike
@Kiwi
“their Muslim brothers and sisters from a brutal American or Israeli occupation.”—- Not only that can we not say they were pressuredoing by the extremists in the organization? They could have easily been told their families would be shamed, killed, etc if they did not comply.
LikeLike
To Kiwi:
I don’t see Muslim suicide bombers as any different than Japanese kamikaze pilots.
Well, I wasn’t aware that Japanese kamikaze pilots were still a threat. Most assuredly in 1941 – 1945 the Japanese were viewed as much more threatening than the large majority of the world’s muslims as the latter were either often neutral or allied with the US and Great Britain.
Another difference between the kamikaze pilots and most muslim bombers is the former exclusively attacked military targets.. the latter sometimes attacks military targets (which I think is legitimate..) but predominately (intentionally) attacks civilians.
LikeLike
To Lord of Milkwood:
If a Catholic American soldier said a “Hail Mary” before going into combat, would you claim that he is a terroristic fanatic?
Mohammed Atta’s letter:
2613 words
Papal Bull calling for the second crusade in 1154
1094 words
Hail Mary
42 words
It’s a matter of degree.. at least in my opinion.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
“Its use is political and was invented by Iran during the proxy war it waged against Israel in Lebanon during the 80s, a little known fact.”—Quite interesting bit of information. Thanks I was not aware.
LikeLike
[…] Poviete si, načo sem ťahať dávnu minulosť. Dobre. Pozrime sa na posledných 100 rokov. Podľa tejto sumarizácie kresťanská časť sveta má na svedomí 73,3 miliónov životov, pričom tá moslimská […]
LikeLike
@ abagond
So The Reconquista is a “Christian War”? The Muslims invade Spain, which at the time had a 100% Christian population, and when the Spanish kick them out, it´s a “Christian War”?
Exactly the same can be said about the Crusades, by the way. Last time I checked, the Muslims didn´t win Palestine in a bingo game either.
Also, the Nazis count as “Chistian”? In what planet, other than your own? You may care to check that, after Jews, and not by much, the second most numerous victim group of the Nazis were Christians, and specifically Catholics, specifically persecuted for their Christian condition.
You do, indeed, prove that everything is in the definitions, but not quite in the way you intended. Lopsided, much?
LikeLike
@ Professor Chaos
Regardless of what Hitler actually thought privately, what he espoused as leader of the Nazi party is another thing.
A few obvious examples off the top of my head:
* Mein Kampf is peppered with Christian themed references in support of Hitler’s worldview.
*Third Reich Wehrmacht soldiers sported belt buckles that said “Gott Mit Uns” (God With Us).
* The cultural climate in Nazi-Germany was greatly influenced by long-standing anti-Jewish sentiment held by both Catholics and Protestants. Indeed, this contempt for the “god-killers” goes back to the early days of Christianity and was if anything rekindled by Martin Luther, a German and seminal figure of the Protestant reformation.
Yes, there were Christian victims of the Holocaust, but fact is that the Nazis were by and large Christian.
LikeLike
Well, Like I always say to my friends… A day will come when the gentle decides to fight and the bully finds out he can’t even fight. Maybe these statistics should educate ISIS that when a Christian opponent rises up against them, they will be crushed… I am more violent but won’t fight now.
LikeLike
@masterblasterofdisaster
Very interesting bit of information that seems to constantly get overlooked.
LikeLike
This article is absolutely moronic for a number of reasons. Shall I count the ways?
1. It clearly doesn’t count terrorist attacks in the homicide rate for Iraq. How do I know this? Because in 2013 (the year this article was written) 6378 people were killed in Iraq JUST BY TERRORIST ATTACKS.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/202861/number-of-deaths-in-iraq-due-to-terrorism/
Iraq has a population of 33.42 million. That means that if you only count people killed by terrorists (not counting murders for any other reasons) Iraq’s homicide rate would be 19 per 100,000 people, which is 6 times higher than the murder rate of ‘white America.’
2. It didn’t count the Syrian civil war which has been ongoing since 2013. That’s killed about 300,000 people in 4 years, so let’s say 75,000 a year. Syria only has a population of 22 million.
Do the math. That’s an awfully high death rate, don’t you think?
3. You list the Reconquista as a “Christian War” but that war was fought against Muslims who had invaded and conquered Spain. Why was the invasion of Spain not counted? Why was the Reconquista itself not counted as a Muslim war too, given their involvement?
4. You didn’t count the Muslim invasion of India in which tens of millions died. I assume this is because you didn’t know the Muslims invaded India, since you don’t seem particularly bright and have a very weak grasp of history.
LikeLike
Oh I’m so sorry that u wasted your time writing this article but it’s all wrong you poor thing. I’ll fix it for you quickly because it would take me all day to do it in detail.
Unfortunately, none of those wars u mentioned were in the name if Christianity accept the defensive movement that was organised to stop the relentless onslaught of the conquering attacking Muslims. The this defensive movement was labeled “The crusades”.
570 wars were faught in the name of Islam Before the crusades happened. The Muslims conquered almost half the globe. Arabs came out of Saudi Arabia and pushed all the way through the cristian Middle East and converted it all to Islam and then accross the seas and Into Spain and Europe where the Christians ordered the defensive crusades to push the Muslims back.
7 crusades in total.
570 Islamic Jihad Crusades before the first ever crusade!
Hasn’t been a crusade in the name if Christ since!
Islams crusades have never stopped. The jihad continues to this very day.
The death till caused by Muslims in the name of Islam in the billions.
The death toll in the name of Christ is less than 5million.
And lastly
“Saying that 9/11 was a Muslim is like saying hitler was a Christian”
Lol 9/11 was done in the name of Islam
Hitler was political an power hungry and wasn’t even a religious man.
This was proven when he sided with Muslims against the Jews.
Hitler and the Muslims are one in the same.
I how that clears a lot up for you.
Here is a pure history link about the matter in question – http://youtu.be/I_To-cV94Bo
Glad to be of help
LikeLike
Truth bearer
How does it feel to know that you are one of many that lack the intelligence to comprehend this post? That warning message above should have been a stop and think indicator. Yet it never seems to happen.
Glad you could be an example.
LikeLike
Oh and you may want to read a bit more into Hitler and his affair with Christianity. It isn’t the myth people make it out to be.
LikeLike
Calling most of the “great” wars Christian is positively absurd. They were nearly all secular. Hundreds of millions of people have been murdered in these wars and Christ had nothing to do with it. When there have been atrocities done in the name of Christ, they have been completely opposed to the teaching of Jesus unlike Muslim atrocities.
LikeLike
even in modern days you have liberals and conservatives . the conservatives (the christians ) are the evil ones they are always thirsty for wars , blood and destructions . Iraq war for example , millions were killed millions are suffering from radiations thousands of children born deformed from radiation . the god of christianity told George bush to start these wars based on bible verses . these people believe that their jesus won’t return unless they massacre the people of the middle east and expel them from their land and when he returns he will massacre those who don’t believe in him . even the terrorist groups such as ISIS these are made by them read the book (Divide and Ruin: The West’s Imperial Strategy in an Age of Crisis) to understand who is behind these groups . the cross plan to destroy the middle east started in 9/11 .
LikeLike
Trying to sort out “true” Muslims and Christians from the wars they’ve waged is a hopeless mess. The problem with the solution you offer is that in many cases, real religious interest is fused with political interest. It is naive to say, as do some Christians, that all the Christian wars were waged by false Christians, and that “real” Muslims are not violent people. People like Christopher Columbus (a Roman Catholic) and Stonewall Jackson (a Presbyterian) were devout in their respective faiths; they threw themselves into their work with belief they were serving both Christ and their respective political authorities. This is likewise true with Muslims. On the other hand, once division was made between church and state in the west, one must distinguish between the older Christian wars and the modern state wars in which Christians willingly fought. No Christian entered a modern war for religious reasons, at least not in any official sense. This is where Christians have the advantage over Islam despite the numbers. There is no church-state division in Islam, and Muslims see all expansion of Islam as the expansion of God’s kingdom. Muslims may or may not like using violence to expand Islam, but there is nothing in Islam that prohibits the use of violence. Christianity is not a religion that seeks a state (“My kingdom is not of this world”) and lends no legitimate support to violent expansion of Christianity, and every attempt to do so has been either an illegitimate abuse of the faith, or a reactionary response to the Muslim kingdom-building that took place in the early middle ages. For instance, the fusion of “Christianity” with “kingdom” in the west was called “Christendom”–would not even exist were it not for Islam’s expansion. Let’s not forget that as bad as Christians acted in the crusades in the 1100s AD/CE, it was the Muslims who invaded Europe first–and it took sheer violence to stop them at Tours in 732 AD/CE. This was at least one violent Christian defensive war against invading Muslims, who were (in their own thinking) expanding Islam. In a real sense, Muslims helped engender violent Christendom, just as they helped engender African slavery by cutting off the trade routes to the Caucuses, which inadvertently led European Christians to start looking for slaves elsewhere. The bottom line is not whether Christians are more violent than Muslims, but whose religion actually allows for state violence, religious persecution, and the use of war in the name of God. Christians are grossly and inexcusably guilty of using violence over and over again in the name of Jesus to do injustice. Of this there is no doubt. Denying they were Christians is a lie. But Islam is the real problem for the world–its sacred text like its founder–bears no distinction between “church” and state, and it draws no line between jihad as a spiritual struggle and jihad as a vehicle for killing the enemies of Islam. Jesus made no such provision, binding his followers to peace. That Christians have so often violated that command is a matter of history, but individual cases have to be examined with ethical precision–why did Christians use violence? In most cases we can find gross violations of Jesus’ commands. In other cases, Christians struggle with the concept of peace–was Jesus a pacifist, or did he mean only that the faith cannot be spread by violence? Muslims no doubt differ as to the spread of their faith too. Many Muslims are very peaceful and kind. African American Muslims as a group are particularly so, although I believe this is because they have a cultural Christian background (Malcolm X had such a “Christian” view of Islam as a religion of peace and brotherhood, although this point is often overlooked). The problem is the Qur’an and its Prophet represent a tradition that makes no definitive differentiation between faith and land, conquest and conversions. At its best, Islam has offered a benign rule to Christian inferiors, taxing and discriminating against them in social terms; at worst, Islam has massacred Christians and terrorized “Christian lands” and people. But what text of the Qur’an can we use to call Muslims to accountability? A religion that cannot differentiate between faith and state is more dangerous than a religion that teaches peace, but whose followers violate it. If any people know this, it is non-western Christians who live within reach of Muslims today. As far as the US is concerned, it has been a long time since it was a “Christian” nation in any sense, although many Christians live within it today. You will see that most Muslims refuse to make this distinction, which is not only ignorance, but reflects their own inability to understand the western dichotomy between church and state. Meanwhile, we are shocked when a random Muslim in our neighborhoods suddenly erupts in a violent assault. It may be kind to portray them as “false” Muslims, but the truth is, there is no way of determining whether their acts of violence are fundamentally “un-Muslim.” Christianity is a religion that demands peace, but its followers often are violent and unjust. Islam by definition of its sacred text is a religion of peace AND war, and it’s up to Muslims to decide which route to take. So which religion is more violent?
LikeLike
WHat a crock of crap!! How can you call WWII and other wars Christian wars. Are you stupid or just that bias??
LikeLike
I don’t see the over 900 million hindus killed by muslims. Making there number higher then Christians
LikeLike
@ Tom
Do you have a source for that?
LikeLike
abagond: here is a major source – http://plancksconstant.org/blog1/2014/04/muslims_slaughtered_100_million_hindus.html
LikeLike
^^^ Yea, but even your source does not say 900 million hindus. Stretching the truth won’t make it the truth.
LikeLike
How is every death in the crusades and reconquista attributes to Christians?
What about the jihad that came before those events?
Both of those conflicts were responses to the mass enslavement and genocide of Christians in eastern Europe and Spain. Spain still has ancient mosques from when Muslim invaders dominated the Iberian peninsula and tried unsuccessfully to spread there 3rd world stone age cult into Europe.
Western civilization would not exist if it wasn’t for brave Christian crusaders hundreds of years ago.
I don’t see Christians running around beheading children like the Muslims in Syria and Iraq
LikeLike
@Kiwi – Have you been smoking the legal product in Colorado?? Christianity was spread in to Europe by the disciples of Christ which was 600 years before Mohammed was around. It was preached and people decide to follow yet when the Muslims came to town you followed or you died. Huge difference! Notice how ignorant do you sound? The only stone age around here is obviously you being stoned!! Finally I will leave you with this just because you hate religion and your God is yourself doesn’t men they all fit nice and net in your little religion box view on life! Obviously you don’t know jack crap about history because if you did you would know the only religion to invade Europe was the Muslims. Here is a fact for you because I am almost positive that you are one of those types. You know that guy Columbus who is credited for discovering America, you know the one you hate and think badly of him. If it hadn’t of been for the Muslims invading another city Columbus would have never looked for a different route to Asia
LikeLike
@Jonathan
“It was preached and people decide to follow yet when the Muslims came to town you followed or you died.”—That is false. You were either a christian or a heathen. People did not choose Christianity. It was forced upon them in many cases. Also if you research history Jews and Muslims had a pretty decent relationship in past. As of today I also think they maintain one.
So word of advice….research before calling anyone an idiot because karma seems to set it up for you to look like one.
LikeLike
^^^ comment in moderation, but wanted to add. Here is a link for you to start that research on the spread of Christianity throughout Europe. http://ruizspieces.com/hist/1402.html
LikeLike
Sharinalr – WTH are you talking about ad please if you’re going to source something do it from something legit. Have you read the Bible and how Christianity started to spread? Do you not know what was fed to the lions for sport because it sure want pagans? Please show me in history where Christians invaded a country and forced Christianity on the people other than the Americas. You can source all the dumb blogs you wont but history is history. BTW did Constantine get forced to change his whole country’s religion because Christians were cutting heads off. Did Columbus search for a new trade route because of invading Christians. Listen Christians haven’t been perfect through out time, but to say that they are as bad as Muslim is drinking to much damn koolaid. Finally I used idiot because Kiwi used the term stupid!
LikeLike
Oh one more thing that proves your an idiot too sharinalr!! As for your quote: “Also if you research history Jews and Muslims had a pretty decent relationship in past. As of today I also think they maintain one” that is the mot idiotic thing anyone has ever said. How many countries in the Muslim world chant death to Israel? You’re a koolaid drinking fool!
LikeLike
Kiwi – Please source where pagans were killed at anywhere close to the rate that muslims have killed or invaded. Also have you heard of the Reformation? I guess not. Christians haven’t done crap like that in over 500 years, but who’ still cutting heads of of children and throwing gays off of 10 story buildings? If you want to see who is more loving walk into a church with rainbow t-shirt and then go to Iran and see how long it taes you to get out of jail or resurrected from your grave!
LikeLike
@Jonathan
If you don’t know what I am talking about then you only solidify the idea that you need to do research. AS to the source it is quite legit. Saying it isn’t in no way means it is not. IF you like I could google search and pull up the same information in that source from another and what you said would still be false.
“Have you read the Bible and how Christianity started to spread?”—I am a christian so reading the bible is a thing, but how it was spread in the bible and how it is written historically are not always in sync.
“Do you not know what was fed to the lions for sport because it sure want pagans?”—I didn’t say it was. I never mentioned Pagans.
“Please show me in history where Christians invaded a country and forced Christianity on the people other than the Americas. “—I already did. In my source. This is the part where you support the idea that they have not.Y
“You can source all the dumb blogs you wont but history is history.”—I didn’t source a blog. I actually sourced a history book. 😉
” BTW did Constantine get forced to change his whole country’s religion because Christians were cutting heads off. Did Columbus search for a new trade route because of invading Christians. Listen Christians haven’t been perfect through out time, but to say that they are as bad as Muslim is drinking to much damn koolaid. Finally I used idiot because Kiwi used the term stupid!”—All this deflects from what I said. If you want me to address it it will only be after all your false information is shown for what it is. No worries. We are almost done with that portion of this game. Kiwi used the term stupid talking to someone else. You jumped in to simply display you are actually the idiot. Which is why I said…”research before calling anyone an idiot because karma seems to set it up for you to look like one.”
LikeLike
@Kiwi
Looks like your buddy Jonathan is changing goal posts. lol
LikeLike
@Jonathan
“Oh one more thing that proves your an idiot too sharinalr!! As for your quote: “Also if you research history Jews and Muslims had a pretty decent relationship in past. As of today I also think they maintain one” that is the mot idiotic thing anyone has ever said. How many countries in the Muslim world chant death to Israel? You’re a koolaid drinking fool!”–As of right now you don’t know what I believe to say what Koolaid I am drinking. Displaying your lies and inaccuracies does not mean I drink some Koolaid. It means I can think for myself enough to research and know truth versus bs. Saying I am an idiot does not disprove what I said or change that it is fact.
If you know your research on the holy land it was actually Christians who ran out the Jews. Muslims allowed them to return to the city. If such hatred existed in this relationship then Muslims would have not allowed it and slaughtered them unless they converted based on your scenario. A case that did not happen. When Jews and Muslims were at conflict it had nothing to do with religion, but was political and nationalistic.
They also chant death to other countries as well. Chanting death to Israel does not mean they hate Jews. As we know Jews don’t just live in Israel.
Perhaps you should again take your own advice and stop drinking that koolaid.
LikeLike
It is an exercise in futility to debate someone who says muslim have a good relation with jewish people. Like I said earlier that is absolutely absurd. Are you really going to say that most muslim countries view jews as equals? BTW I would like you to address one question how many Christians have beheaded people or thrown gays off of buildings or not allowed women to vote or drive in the last 100 years? How many Christians stone people to death in the last 100 years?
Here is a legit source for the expansion of Christianity and I can’t seem to find your violent interpretation http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/why/appeal.html
The fact is the Muslim religion has had more death and conquering of lands and people than Christianity, period. As for the koolaid obviously for you to say the crap you said you’re drinking something.
LikeLike
@Jonathan
“It is an exercise in futility to debate someone who says muslim have a good relation with jewish people.”—Obviously reading comprehension is not your strong point and as such calling you an idiot is on par with what you are. I will quote again what I said “Also if you research history Jews and Muslims had a pretty decent relationship in past. As of today I also think they maintain one.” With that being said decent and good are not one in the same and if you think they are try google.
“Are you really going to say that most Muslim countries view jews as equals?”–I didn’t, but are you really going to start putting words in my mouth? Though for fun we can say Jews do not view Muslims or anyone else as equals.
“BTW I would like you to address one question how many Christians have beheaded people or thrown gays off of buildings or not allowed women to vote or drive in the last 100 years? How many Christians stone people to death in the last 100 years?”—This is not one question so I am guessing you can’t count. At any rate narrowing it to the last 100 years does not erase the years prior. Today “Christians” beat and kill gays. Most Muslim countries allow women to drive and a good deal have women voters and in high office positions. 🙂
Sorry but your source fails to address anything you claimed above or disprove anything I said. Even further it is more on par with a blog post or opinion piece in regards to what the writer thinks of Christianity. Being from PBS does not make it more legit or a source of fact.
“The fact is the Muslim religion has had more death and conquering of lands and people than Christianity, period. As for the koolaid obviously for you to say the crap you said you’re drinking something.”—This isn’t a fact, but your opinion. Try to learn the difference next time.What I posted above is a fact. Get back to me when you can post some.
LikeLike
@ Daniel
That is because they have drones to blow up children instead.
LikeLike
Re: Daniel’s comment
Off the top of my head, the Philippines, Taiwan, Guam, Hawaii, India, Australia, New Zealand, East Timor, Vietnam, Macau, Micronesia, Polynesia, Mariana Islands, most of the Polynesian islands, Mauritius, Seychelles, Reunion, … .. .. ..
On top of that, the entire American continents are a big territory and population on which to invade and force Christianity.
LikeLike
@Kiwi – Did you not read my question between bong hits? I said in the last 100 years and not one of your examples falls in to that category! ext are you F-ing serious to try and blame Christians for drones? Please tell e where just 1 drone has been fired in the name of Jesus! You see your argument is so lame that you have to reach 500 years back or you have to attribute any deaths caused by the US or its allies to Christianity. Its obvious to me that you are either a Islamic sympathizer or you are one to say the crazy ass things you say. Next time if you wont any credibility please source your BS. Also once again I never changed my quote, “Christians never invaded Europe and forced Christianity on people!”
@ Daniel – It’s useless to debate with these 2 because they just throw crap out there they heard from some ultra liberal who was making crap up and they believe. They think Christians and the US are the ultimate evil in the world why turning a blind eye to the children getting crucified, gays being thrown off buildings, women being stoned, 12 year old boys being raped, people getting their heads cut off, ancient sites being destroyed, people being drowned and burned to death, but God forbid the US uses drones or the Spanish brought Christianity to the Americas in the 1500’s!! Maybe I need to smoke weed so I can be oblivious to the truth!
LikeLike
Yes Jonathan you need to smoke some weed.
You completely missed Abagond’s point.
“The mistake here lies not in the numbers but in the words “Christian” and “Muslim”. Sometimes religion is a cause – or at least an excuse – like in the bombings by Christian extremist Eric Rudolph or the genocide in Sudan. But most often it is not. Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.”
Early Islam allowed legal pluralism amongst themselves, Christians and Jews. Each group had their judges for their own communities. Trade and mutual respect allowed for coexistence.
All religions start out as living faiths only to develop into hierarchies later.
Once religions attach themselves to a State then coexistence becomes problematic.
Their are over 2 billion Muslims on the planet but less then 1% have woven violence into their world view. The same could be said for Christians.
“Christians never invaded Europe and forced Christianity on people!”
The Romans invaded Europe and introduced the alphabet to the Northern barbarians. Later Europe would become Christianized. Christianity and colonialism fit hand in hand. Christianity was used to both justify and destroy the indigenous identities of the people Europeans went out to “civilize” in their quest for resources.
Not just “ultra-liberals” oppose American Imperialism. Ever heard of Ron Paul ?
LikeLike
Once again you take a fact and stretch and twist the facts to fit your BS. The Romans never invaded Europe to spread Christianity! Secondly, Hilter wasn’t Christian he was secular and he never did killed a Jew or invaded a country in the name of Jesus, but when the terrorists attacked on 9/11 they did it in the name of Allah. Lets do some math if your figure is right and 1% of Muslims are violent that is 20 million people. Are you really going to use Rudolph a lone nut to try and compare it to 20 million people.? Are you really going to say that Christian extremist is the same in this day in age to Islamic extremest? Once again none of you America hating A Holes can show me where CHristians are throwing gays off buildings, burning people alive or cutting heads off in the name of Jesus, but what do the people who do say when they’re doing it, “allahu akbar”
Finally Michael since you hate this imperialistic country take you butt to a Muslim country and while you’re at it why dont you wear a rainbow flag shirt while you’re there or maybe draw a cartoon of Mohamed! Youre a liberal joke!
LikeLike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler
LikeLike
@Jonathan
As much as you bring up someone smoking something or being high, I have to wonder if thou doth protest too much.
Daniel has not been debating with anyone. So to write him a paragraph talking about how futile it is is a sign of a not well individual. You are having a fantasy conversation with a person who made one comment and nothing else. Is he a sock puppet of yours you are expecting to return?
“They think Christians and the US are the ultimate evil in the world why turning a blind eye to the children getting crucified, gays being thrown off buildings, women being stoned, 12 year old boys being raped, people getting their heads cut off, ancient sites being destroyed, people being drowned and burned to death, but God forbid the US uses drones or the Spanish brought Christianity to the Americas in the 1500’s!! Maybe I need to smoke weed so I can be oblivious to the truth!”—-This is a straw man coupled with a few different fallacies. No one said a thing about what they think. We only pointed out the falsehood you keep spouting, but can’t seem to find a source to back it up. I am sure there are non “ultra-liberal” sources out there somewhere that could support you. If you claim something you need to be able to support it. If you can not need the joke so happens to be on you. Not the people you decided to toss names at as you go on an emotional rampage.
FYi you can save the crying about no one else providing a source, because a) you haven’t either and b) you made the claims.
LikeLike
@Michael Jon Barker
The child is a special one. *smh*
You may need to break it down. He seems to suffer from reading comprehension on an extreme case or it could be typing while angry.
LikeLike
“Once again none of you America hating A Holes can show me where CHristians are throwing gays off buildings, burning people alive or cutting heads off in the name of Jesus, but what do the people who do say when they’re doing it, “allahu akbar””—-That is because Christians don’t have to throw them off buildings to commit hate crimes against them. Asking people to show this and then trying to limit the time period in which it happened is intellectual dishonesty. Whether they scream the name of Jesus when they do it or not does not mean they are not doing it for a religious purpose and stipulating that is again intellectual dishonesty. 🙂
Good day.
LikeLike
http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/01/world/meast/syria-bodies-crucifixions/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/horrific-moment-isis-kill-four-5958580
http://clashdaily.com/2015/02/raw-video-isis-beheads-21-christians-extremely-graphic/
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4030583977001/warning-extremely-graphic-video-isis-burns-hostage-alive/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/06/robert-cone-nidal-malik-h_n_348145.html
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7kdqp_daniel-pearl-execution-video_news
LikeLike
You always know when you’re debating a liberal they never answer a question they never present facts and when you present facts they deny them and make some crazy ass statement like just because Christians aren’t cutting heads off doesnt mean their not committing hate crimes. Just because they dont do it in Jesus’s name doesnt mean theyre not. I am done debating with you koolaid fairytale living liberals. Like I said why don’t you go to Syria and proclaim how gay you are and see how well you’re accepted! I provided several links but I am sure they wont be good enough, but have fun watching what your religion of peace is doing just make sure you dont have any food in your stomach!
LikeLike
@Jonathan
“when you present facts they deny them and make some crazy ass statement like just because Christians aren’t cutting heads off doesnt mean their not committing hate crimes. “—You haven’t presented any facts that you can support, so that is short of saying you have not presented any facts. By your logic you’re the liberal. In regards to your questions they were answered, but you did not like the answer. Also cutting off heads or throwing a person off the building is not the only way that people kill gays. So to limit it to those is a sign you are not working with a full deck. Plus you change the limit each comment you make.
“I provided several links but I am sure they wont be good enough, but have fun watching what your religion of peace is doing just make sure you dont have any food in your stomach!”—Two links are not several. You can’t even count. This is the second time you said a number and provided something else. Of the two links none of them support your claim or dispute what others did say. In essence your links were pointless.
LikeLike
right, as i was trying to say, somewhat unsuccessfully, is that perhaps the crusades, the holy roman empire, the christian roman emperors, and the byzantine empire are quite good examples of ‘killing in the name of jesus’ i think the spanish inquisition qualifies too, check yer facts!
LikeLike
furthermore, i would argue that the american hegemonic projection of power would also have bolsted christian vis a vis in catholic ‘missions’ around the world, having a place for hush hush first aid and so forth and the symbiotic nature of the church ie catholic in particular since they are the most successful and hence forth please be advised church means catholic to me, the church is complicit in a ‘felony murder’ or extended ‘keeping company during the commission’ of armed agression around the world, it is not diffierent today at all
LikeLike
I don’t know if I’ve ever seen so much effort expended on such egregious and obvious category errors. The Korean War counts as a “Christian war”? I think I see your problem right there.
LikeLike
Thank goodness someone hasn’t drank the koolaid! Can you believe this crap and what they count as Christian atrocities
LikeLike
@Pretzel Logic
Here is a quote directly from the post.
“Warning: Read to the end of the post before jumping to conclusions about where I am going with this post.”—-At the end of the day. The problem is not the post, but the lack of reading comprehension of the individual who reads it.
LikeLike
@Jonathan
Now that your links have gone through. It really does not change anything I said above.
First, flooding the room with Muslim atrocities (which no one denied) to avoid your claim of “It was preached and people decide to follow yet when the Muslims came to town you followed or you died.” or any of the other claims you laid out does not change that you have failed in your attempts to prove said claims. We know Muslim extremist commit heinous acts, but so do Christians extremists.
Secondly your links show acts of the extremist group isis and the lone killer at ft. hood. Not Muslims in general. Which still does not support your claim. By that logic I can take acts of lone extremist christian groups and match you toe for toe.
Thirdly let us view the christian way shall we?
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/02/24/christian_militiamen_kill_70_muslims_in_central_african_republic.html
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Cypress-murder-suspect-says-he-did-right-thing-1608151.php
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/17-christians-guilty-in-indonesia-deaths/
LikeLike
Oh and one more for the pile.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/bible-says-gays-should-be-executed-and-i-believe-every-word-says-arizona-pastor-99583/
LikeLike
Jonothan said:
“Are you really going to say that Christian extremist is the same in this day in age to Islamic extremest? Once again none of you America hating A Holes can show me where CHristians are throwing gays off buildings, burning people alive or cutting heads off in the name of Jesus, but what do the people who do say when they’re doing it, “allahu akbar”
In Christian Uganda gays aren’t thrown off buildings rather their locked inside buildings for the remainder of their lives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014
Their is sectarian violence between both Christian and Muslim militias in Africa.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge
http://www.france24.com/en/20150929-car-samba-panza-leaves-un-violence-deadly-bangui
When Abagond concludes his post with “attempt to understand the world as it is” he is alluding to how quickly people assume something about a particular race or religion without taking into account the politics behind Race or the politics behind Christian and Muslim nations.
So the question you need to be asking yourself is who profits from all this sectarian violence ? Who profits from racism ? As a Christian you need to ask yourself who would Jesus drone ?
Religions maybe different but the power structures remain the same. Humanity is far more similar then the few on the ideological extreme.
Quote by Iranian writer Marjane Satrapi,
“The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you.”
LikeLike
And i appreciate that my logic could be construed as anti-american but if you think this all is good enough you are sadly mistaken. Im done with this for now
LikeLike
@v8driver
I understand exactly what you are saying. Many people think what I say is anti-American or Anti-Christian, but in reality it is just a matter of realizing that the lies people tell is not helping anyone.
LikeLike
Sharinair has laid out ample evidence but Jonathan willfully ignores.
He strikes me as the kind of person who would throw a tantrum if somebody burned an American flag but couldn’t care less about Black lives or the lives of people our government drones.
LikeLike
🙂
LikeLike
@Michael Barker
I feel that you laid out a great amount of information and evidence as well, but people like Jonathan are prone to put their head in the sand. On top of that I think he lacks the mental level needed to understand the post or what is going on in the world.
LikeLike
These stats are profoundly bias! Nothing is mentioned about the countless and savage, raping, pillaging that spread Islam in the 7th century, and is continuing today (=1400 years of death) based on the consistent teachings of the Quran, Sirah, and Hadith (which means “muslim extreminism” is only a Western invented term). Nothing is mentioned about how many of the supposed “Christians wars” above are a reaction to the brutal Muslim invasions, especially was the case of the Crusades which was a response to 4 centuries of Islam expanding and wiping everything out.
The author of this blog and clever crafter of these manipulated stats is the Islamophobe! You’re afraid to admit the truth of Islam and it’s cancerous affect on the whole world!
LikeLike
@Cameron
He also failed to mention Muslim response to western invasion, but oddly the comment sections are full of these by the surprising amount of people who wish to point out Muslim atrocities.
LikeLike
Sharinalr,
Likewise, some Western invasions are a response from Islamic invasion. There is nothing mentioned in the above statistics about the first 3-4 centuries of Islam following in the behavior of Muhammad, which eventually slaughtered the entire world around the Mediterranean. It comes out to about 2.4 million deaths if you take in account all the jihad of the last 1,400 years. Christianity obviously pales in comparison to this.
Due to what I call “true Islamophobia” (=fear of looking at the true and consistent teachings and history of Islam and openly discussing it) much of those statistics are rarely talked about in the media.
For example, when Muslims murder non-Muslims they are behaving consistently with Muhammad, the Quran, Sirah, and Hadith (thus are not “extremists”). When a Christian or Jew murders simply because someone is a non-Christian or non-Jew they are behaving inconsistently with their religious texts (thus would be “extremists”).
In addition, there are things people don’t think about, ie. in 2014 Muslims killed more infidels in one day than all the deaths during all the centuries of the Spanish Inquisition combined!
In addition, what makes getting the truth of Islam out there so difficult is that there are many Islamic apologists standing by always trying to spin Islam in the best light. It’s very clever and crafty behavior.
LikeLike
I meant to say 270 million death caused by jihad:
Africa
Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
120 million Africans
Christians
The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:
60 million Christians
Hindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”
80 million Hindus
Buddhists
Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam) everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.] 10 million Buddhists
Jews
Oddly enough there were not enough Jews killed in jihad to significantly affect the totals of the Great Annihilation. The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective, but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that, the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.
This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.
LikeLike
@Cameron
“Likewise, some Western invasions are a response from Islamic invasion. “—I am sure there are, but there are a great deal of cases that Westerners refuse to talk about that are a direct result of there invasions and interference in with Muslims. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Also people should stop tossing Jihad at the head of every Muslim war. Often time it is poorly used and was not the reason for the war or killing to begin with. Muslim countries go to war for the same reason Westerners go and it is not always religion. If we are going to decided to use the stats for that then by your logic it is okay to take any western country and put into stats as a christian war. See the onesided bias and hopefully the point of the post?
“For example, when Muslims murder non-Muslims they are behaving consistently with Muhammad, the Quran, Sirah, and Hadith (thus are not “extremists”). “—Please show me a text that is consistent with this and I will show you how it is twisted and text that says similar in Christian bible.
“In addition, what makes getting the truth of Islam out there so difficult is that there are many Islamic apologists standing by always trying to spin Islam in the best light. It’s very clever and crafty behavior.”—The truth of the killings is out, but I say it is equally as crafty and clever to twist text and ignore similar text in the bible, while still convincing people of the sainthood of it.
As to your list of stats and numbers I find it odd that you would call this post misleading and then choose an equally as misleading list of sources. As such I will just add this as a counter to it.
This was written by Bill French aka “Bill Warner” of “Center for the Study of Political Islam” (cf. this FrontPageMag interview).
Let’s go over it step by step.
1. Africans. The number of 120 million victims is, of course, taken from thin air. Even assuming the number of 25 million slaves to be correct, and assuming that “Islam” was responsible for them, one cannot simply multpily the number by a single dodgy statistical point to get some sort of a total number of “dead”.
Notice that the whole transatlantic slave trade is attributed to Islam! Apparently, Christians had nothing to do with it. This way we will soon hear that Confederacy was an Islamic separatist state.
However, when we assume the scope of the Arab slave trade (which existed before Islam) to be between 10-18 million people, to claim that Islam as such is responsible for the associated victims is the same as claiming that Christianity is to blame for the victims of slavery and racism perpetrated by Christians (among many other things).
2. Christians. The first source cited is not quite scholarly. It’s a mish-mash of statistical data, and when it comes to “martyrdom” particularly, there is no careful, scholarly discussion of each particular number as well as its sources, which leaves the question of the reliability of each particular statistic open. Here’s the table 4-10. It is so exhaustive, yet it has only 9 million alleged Christian victims of Muslims (I did not bother to verify by recounting, but table 4-5 does have 9 million alleged victims of Muslims). However then the “Tears of Jihad” article claims that there were 50 million more of them. How did the authors of that table somehow miss these additional millions? If they were so incompetent, why cite their statistics in the first place?
But where is the 50 million figure from? The source is given as “History of Asia Minor” by Raphael Moore. Quick Google search brings up this source, which is an article by Raphael Moore entitled “In Memory Of The 50 Million Victims Of The Orthodox Christian Holocaust”. Its first sub-section is called “History Of Asia Minor: 1894-1923”, which is apparently at the root of confusion for Geller’s source: the name of the sub-section was confused with the name of the complete work. Such brilliant scholarship.
The number “50 million” does appear in the article, but only as a total number of Christians martyred in XXth century!
Between the tolls exacted from prisons, concentration camps, forced marches and exiles, warfare, famine, and brutal military occupation, it is reasonable to conclude that up to 50 million Orthodox Christians have perished in the first eight decades of the twentieth century.
Geller’s source simply took this number and ascribed it to “Jihad”.
(As a side note, this source is also far from scholarly and the number is not calculated properly, but that is already irrelevant for the purposes of the present critique.)
3. Hindus. It is claimed that the number is estimated by Elst (who is known for right-wing anti-Muslim bias). However, when we take a look at his book we see this:
As a contribution to research on the quantity of the Islamic crimes against humanity, we may mention Prof. K.S.Lal’s estimates about the population figures in medieval India (Growth of Muslim Population in India). According to his calculations, the Indian (subcontinent) population decreased by 80 million between 1000 (conquest of Afghanistan) and 1525 (end of Delhi Sultanate). More research is needed before we can settle for a quantitatively accurate evaluation of Muslim rule in India, but at least we know for sure that the term crime against humanity is not exaggerated.
So it’s not Elst’s estimate, but Lal’s estimate. And moreover, it is not an estimate of 80 million murders. It’s an estimate of a population decrease in five centuries, the causes of which may be many, including natural population decrease, conversions, etc.
The problem, however, is that Lal’s estimates are simply fantasies. One cannot take seriously any such estimates based on extremely fragmentary demographic data for the year 1000. Simon Digby writes in his review of Lal’s book, after addressing some of Lal’s assumptions (Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, vol. 38, no. 1, 1975, p. 177):
Regarding the population of India before A.D. 1000 Lal quotes the guesses of Colin Clark – 70 millions – and Jyotindra Mohan Datta – 200 to 300 millions. He himself prefers 200 millions and he believes that, mainly as a result of the Muslim invasions and presence, the population of India fell from 200 millions in A.D. 1000 to 125 millions in A.D. 1500, to rise under more amiable Mughal rule to 175 millions in 1700.
[…]
The author is known for his detailed studies of the Khalji dynasty and of the fifteenth century Delhi sultanate. He is well versed in the sources of medieval North Indian history. In the present study he has assembled almost all the conceivably relevant data and for this reason it will remain of value as a compendium of references. Yet the unknown variables are so great and the quality of the data yielded by our sources so poor that almost any detailed general estimates of population based upon them must appear wilful, if not fantastic. At the time when this review was being written, E. J. Hobsbawm (in New Society, 11 July 1974, 76) called the attention of historians of premodern Europe, who dabble in social statistics based on sources of comparable quality to those of Lal, to an axiom of computer operators ‘GIGO’: this stands for ‘Garbage in – Garbage out’!
A reasonable person can agree with this conclusion. Thus, the figure of “80,000,000” Hindus murdered by Muslims is based on nothing but weak speculations.
Interestingly, elsewhere Elst writes:
Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.
4. Buddhists. The only source given for the alleged Buddhist victims of Muslims is the same book with Christian statistics, not any scholarly historical source about, you know, Buddhists. But when we look at the table 4-1, we only see the number of 10,000,000 Buddhists cited (without sources, I might add; and it contains 80,000,000 alleged Muslim martyrs as well, 10 million more than alleged Christian martyrs, estimated to be 70 million!). There is no indication in the table that these Buddhists were slaughtered by Muslims.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/39361_Fact-Checking_Pamela_Geller-_270_million_victims_of_Islam
LikeLike
https://www.rt.com/news/314467-isis-syrya-christians-qaryatayn/
“ISIS issues 11 rules for Christians in captured Syrian town”
LikeLike
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm
Here’s a list of deaths of whites during the Moslem slave trade.
There are reasons they built those towers along the southeast coast of Italy, and they weren’t landing-lights for UFOs!
LikeLike
@EPGAH
Your source says close to nothing of deaths, but speaks on slaves of Muslims during the Barbary slave trade. Can we deal in facts here? If you want to place blame on Muslim for things then please find things they actually did for religious purpose and not everything under the sun that can be found that also had christian or other peoples hands in it. Stop taking sources that say 30 million died and twisting it to failed logic of 30 million Christians killed by Muslims.
LikeLike
@sharinar
It’s about the deaths of slaves at terrorist’s hands.
Christians or not, does it matter? Are they more dead or less dead if the victims are Christian?
LikeLike
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2955249/Egypt-launches-air-strikes-Islamic-State-terror-group-releases-video-showing-beheading-21-Egyptian-Christians-Libya.html#comments
How about this one?
LikeLike
Actually it rankles/xauses resentment that some self described pro-american can’t handle free speech and again crime stats? Is there some troll training class like for prospects or something @jonathan?
LikeLike
Its the opposite makes me want to get involved in the ward
I always vote too
LikeLike
@EPGAH
“It’s about the deaths of slaves at terrorist’s hands.”—-Actually the article you posted is about the Barbary slave trade. There is no ” list of deaths of whites” during this trade as you claimed. Which is what I meant by taking sources and making up what it says to suit a falsehood.
“Christians or not, does it matter? Are they more dead or less dead if the victims are Christian?”—If you read what I said then you are well aware that I care not if they were Christian or not. If you read it and were confused on a specific part then quote it for clarification.
“How about this one?”—That is not Muslims. That is ISIS an extremist group that so happens to be Muslim. But it still does not show or support what you claimed above so what about this one?
LikeLike
sharinalr
The Moslem Cult encourages Moslems to war on non-Moslems and take them as slaves. By contrast, Christianity says you can sell yourself as a slave, you can BUY slaves, but you can’t sell others as slaves.
So when Moslems went on raids to take slaves, they were doing it for their cult.
Although, you could argue the Moslem Cult was just made to justify robbing, raping, and slaving, you cannot say the Moslems were going on slaving raids separately of the cult.
ISIS is not an EXTREMIST group, they’re the ones openly following what the Quran has always said to do. Christians who drift away from the Bible is a bad thing, Moslems who drift away from the Quran is a good thing. But then they risk being killed by other Moslems for not being Moslem enough!
LikeLike
sharinalr
It is also worth noting that Chrsitianity has evolved (Or devolved, depending your perspective), so that the more extreme parts of the Bible no longer guide us.
We don’t stone adulterers, murderers, rapists, and…disobedient children!
Indeed, the new Pope is openly endorsing queer priests, whereas before, although the Civilized World no longer stones queers, it WAS treated as an abomination.
The Moslem Cult, on the other hand, is exactly the same as it was 1400 years ago. Some people might be attracted to it because it DOESN’T water down to avoid hurting peoples’ feelings! Or because the Civilized World makes concessions to the terrorists, from separate microwaves on prison to prayer breaks, that Christians and others don’t get.
Others may be attracted to it because it condones what the Civilized World calls criminality. The Nation of Islam recruits in prison, doesn’t it?
LikeLike
@EPGAH
“Christianity says you can sell yourself as a slave, you can BUY slaves, but you can’t sell others as slaves.”—ROFL. How are you going to buy a slave if someone is not selling them? I will pull up what the bible actually says on that, but you would be surprised that it has several versus in regards to slaves and slave treatment. Down to sex with slaves. Until then.
Seeing as you twist logic quite well, please quote where in the Quran it says such.
“Indeed, the new Pope is openly endorsing queer priests, whereas before, although the Civilized World no longer stones queers, it WAS treated as an abomination.”—Openly endorsing what was already in their ranks. Hopefully they will be as open about the pedophiles.
“The Nation of Islam recruits in prison, doesn’t it?”—You tell me.
Later Tater 🙂
LikeLike
@ @ Jonathan: Comment deleted for use of moderated language.
LikeLike
@ EPGAH: Seven comments deleted on various threads for use of moderated language.
LikeLike
Abagond, I was writing direct quotes from the Bible and the Quran on the treatment of slaves.
Also, if I write a long, thorough explanation, it goes into moderation, but writing something short and thoughtless, it posts immediately.
LikeLike
@ EPGAH
The Bible and the Koran do not have the word “fuck” in them. I suggest you review the moderated words and avoid them.
LikeLike
sharinalr
If you are in too deep of debt to get out of, sell yourself as a slave, I buy you, paying off your debt. They had too small of populations to NEED a middleman back then!
The Bible indeed prescribes some treatments for slaves and proscribes others.
But most importantly, if you have sex with a slave, it binds you TO that slave. Not as a wife, but a concubine. But still: You have to take care of her and the child. The Bible forced RESPONSIBILITY! No single mothers or their spawn becoming everyone’s problem!
Qur’an (23:5-6) – “..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess…” This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur’an (70:29-30). The Quran is a small book, so if Allah wasted valuable ink to repeat the same point four times, then sex slavery must be very important to him. He was relatively reticent on matters of “compassion” or “love.”
Qur’an (4:24) – “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.” Even sex with married slaves is permissible. How convenient! Well, for the slaver, anyways, not the slave!
Qur’an (8:69) – “But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good” A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Moslem slave master may enjoy his “catch” because (according to verse 71) “Allah gave you mastery over them.”
Qur’an (24:32) – “And marry those among you who are single and those who are fit among your male slaves and your female slaves…” Selective Breeding slaves based on fitness. (Sidenote: The Moslems also used to NEUTER their slaves, and even kill the ones they were done with. Christians didn’t!)
Qur’an (2:178) – “O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female.” The message of this verse, which prescribes the “rules of retaliation” for murder, is that all humans are decidedly not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman’s worth is also distinguished from that of a man’s).
LikeLike
@EPGAH
“So when Moslems went on raids to take slaves, they were doing it for their cult.”—This is a quote of what you claimed. Every verse you quoted does not support this. This is what I mean by you taking things and twisting it to your logic. Either you lack the basic reading comprehension to understand what you read or you purposely twist it for your purpose. Either way you are not supporting your claim. I will give full quote of those versus vs what you claim and my source on Christian slavery which oddly is similar to the quotes from the Quran you used.
LikeLike
@EPGAH
Here is my source. http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl1.htm
Beating and Killing Slaves:
Exodus 21:20-21 and Exodus 21:26-27
Restrictions on the Re-selling of Slaves:
Exodus 21:8
Sexual Activity with an Engaged Female Slave
Leviticus 19:20-22
Take note that men could rape slave with impunity. That did not have to make them anything or care for the child per the bible.
As to your Quran quotes actually say.
Qur’an (23:5-6) – And they who guard their private parts; Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed –
Qur’an (4:24) – And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
Qur’an (8:69) –So consume what you have taken of war booty [as being] lawful and good, and fear Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Qur’an (24:32)-And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.
Qur’an (2:178) – you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered – the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.
Your cause would and could be better served if you had honesty. Who wants to believe a person that can lie about something that can be looked up and quoted in it’s entirety without additives?
http://quran.com/
LikeLike
^^^^^^^
Where’s that Mirky Irish fellow with (who supposedly self-identifies as an anti-racist) with ALL the answers to counter THIS looney over-the-top know it all race-realist (also known as a real racist) asylum escapee?
C’mon Mirky, quit floating around in your shadowy murk and get in here to do your job against this latest drive-by stormfront member!
Let’s see you put your keyboard where your stated occupation/hobby (anti-racism?) is.
Wait! What’s that I hearing?
{{{ CRICKETS }}}
LikeLike
You are using a different variant or translation of the Quran than I, but close enough materially, I guess?
“And they who guard their private parts; Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed”
What do you think that means? To my understanding, if you conquer someone, they are yours to do with as you please.
“And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess.”
Once again, conquest overrides marriage. The “marriage” of a slave, doesn’t count!
“And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.”
How are you going to have an “agreement” with a slave? Remember the ridiculousness of the 1990s sexual harassment craze? All predicated on the idea that a female worker had no power to refuse. So a slave would have even less power to refuse.
“And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.”
Your version makes it sound like the Moslems should marry their slaves, and Allah will provide for them, so the Master doesn’t have to! That’s even more convenient than my version!
“you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered – the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.”
How does this differ from what I wrote? It has some fluff at the end, but it DOES separate free from slave and male from female!
Anything can be looked up and quoted, but there are problems with translation.
Remember the biggest change in the Bible came with the King James version:
Thou Shalt Not MURDER
became the far more restrictive
Thou Shalt Not KILL!
LikeLike
@EPGAH
If you have a source for a different Quran then by all means post it.
“What do you think that means? To my understanding, if you conquer someone, they are yours to do with as you please.”—So you think someone telling you to guard your private parts is talking about conquering someone? LOL.
Every single quote is not even saying what you claim. Basic reading of this shows such. Basic reading also show that you are twisting it as I said and I now repeat. None of this my version of it because I did not write the Quran or translate it. You may not like or care what it says, but facts are facts. Deal with them or make up stories like you have been.
“How does this differ from what I wrote? It has some fluff at the end, but it DOES separate free from slave and male from female!”—Everything is different from what you wrote because you apply your own meaning to it.
“Anything can be looked up and quoted, but there are problems with translation.”—In short, because I don’t agree with it then the translation is wrong. By that merit why are people still calling Jesus Jesus when j was not used back then. Toss out King James versions or any other translated version of it. Call foul to someone who cares.
LikeLike
I use this one:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/015-slavery.htm
It has a counter on the main site of number of kills by Moslems since 9/11
It also has a nice breakdown of attacks by category:
Jihad attacks
Suicide bombers
Dead bodies
And those who “only” get critically injured.
And links to the most recent 6 terrorist attacks, locations and dates.
And of course, archives along the right sidebar.
Each story more breathtaking than the last.
“The Queen of Jordan says that if Europe doesn’t accept more Syrian Muslims, the Muslims already in Europe will become more violent.”
In an intelligent world, that is an argument against more Moslems. Kinda makes it hard to intelligently say that Christians are more violent, doesn’t it?
Or am I twisting it?
LikeLike
@EPGAH
Basically you used a source that is not the Quran but another mans redemption of it. In which case my source trumps yours.
Looking at the numbers of dead you would think it was more talking to islamophobes. All the while a site deceiving people with numbers of criminals or extremist that happen to be Muslim.
” Kinda makes it hard to intelligently say that Christians are more violent, doesn’t it?
Or am I twisting it?”—-You are and using a site to support that twist. Based on your source it is frankly taking any act of Muslim crime and painting it as a Muslim act. By that merit we should take any act of crime committed by Christians and get the same logic used here. For example, a Muslim government kills an town then you call it Muslim violence. A christian government kills a town and it becomes christian violence.
LikeLike
Sharinalr,
Likewise, also people should stop tossing Christianity at the head of every war from a Christian empire. Often time it is poorly used and was not the reason for the war or killing to begin with. Christian countries go to war for the same reason Middle-Eastern ones go and it is not always religion. If we are going to decided to use the stats for that then by your logic it is okay to take any Middle-Eastern country and put into stats as a Muslim war. See the onesided bias and hopefully the point of the post?
Surah 9:29.
Here is the context:
Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
9:31—They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ, the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).
9:32—Fain would they extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).
9:33—It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to prevail it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
1. Even Muslim scholars agree that the context is killing unbelievers:
Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.
Note: at this time, Mohammad was not in defensive war against the Romans. This would have been an offensive assault.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.
Note: Nothing is mentioned about defensive war. They are simply commanded to fight Jews and Christians because money can be taken from them and because they are unbelievers.
2. There is nothing in the Bible that “prescribes” Jews or Christians to kill people simply because they are unbelievers. Rather, it “describes” the Israelites killing tribes that were evil. Similarly, it would be evil if people didn’t kill ISIS today since ISIS is evil. God commanded evil tribes to be killed and named them specifically, thus wasn’t a command that could possibly carry on to the entire church age.
3. Even if the Bible did prescribe the killing of unbelievers by Jews or Christians, which it doesn’t, then this would still not be any type of argument against the fact that Islam teaches to kill unbelievers. Just saying “well I can show you how your text says the same thing” is called the tu quoque fallacy.
4. Notice how the Quran misrepresents what Christians actually believed for 600 years prior to Mohammad? Namely, that Jesus was a biological son (which Muslim countries and scholars today still misrepresent) and that Christians are polytheists?! Christians have always been monotheists, 600 years prior to Islam, and Jesus is not taught anywhere in the Bible to be a biological son, but Psalm 2 refers to him as a Son, which refers to his preeminence over all things and functions as Judge over all starting on the day of Judgment. This shows that the Quran isn’t inspired by Allah and that Allah wasn’t all knowing because he didn’t know this simple history. Thus, please repent and become a Christian.
5. This is also consistent with: Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger said, “If anyone changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”
The author of the thread does not mention anything about the first 3 centuries of Islam expanding by the sword, which contrary to popular Islamic and liberal propaganda, was what the Crusades were a response to. Where are the numbers on all the deaths caused by Islam from the 7th – 10th centuries? I want to see the scholarly sources of those numbers.
I’ll try to notify Bill Warner and see if he has any extra info on it if I can. I agree there should be more sources given.
God bless you my friend. Grace and peace to you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ Cameron
I did not go out of my way to exclude any act of “Muslim” violence. I listed my sources. If a war or democide carried out by a Christian or Muslim power killed a million or more people, it made the post. I even took into account the Eurocentrism of my sources.
LikeLike
Thanks Abagond,
However, how many were actually killed when Muslims followed in the footsteps of their leaders, especially Muhammad, and expanded Islam by the sword from the 7th – 11th centuries up to the Crusades? Please provide some sources on that.
Also, please provide some sources on the millions of Hindus killed from 1000-1500 CE when Muslims invaded India.
Thanks.
LikeLike
@Cameron
Switching my words around does not really change what I said and is in fact pretty childish. I already know the otherside, but knowing the otherside did not change you from trying to lay your one-sided reasoning of Muslims. 🙂
Here is your claim so we can be clear: For example, when Muslims murder non-Muslims they are behaving consistently with Muhammad, the Quran, Sirah, and Hadith (thus are not “extremists”)
Qur’an 9:28, 9:29, 9:30, 9:31, 9:32, 9:33says nothing about murder. You pulled sources that speak on not liking or other religions not being the true one, but you did not pull any source that shows some consistent idea that murdering non-Muslims is behaving with the scriptures.
“1. Even Muslim scholars agree that the context is killing unbelievers:”—Even based on the source you used it is not saying that. The closest you have to killing is fight and it is even a stretch to turn that into murder.
2. “There is nothing in the Bible that “prescribes” Jews or Christians to kill people simply because they are unbelievers.”—-Just as you were not able to find much along those lines in the Muslim scriptures. It is not necessary for me to provide similar, but this script is quite interesting.
“Deuteronomy 17
2 If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the Lord thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the Lord thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.” https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+17&version=KJV
“Just saying “well I can show you how your text says the same thing” is called the tu quoque fallacy”—Actually it is not. In order for that fallacy to take place I would be calling your moral character or past actions into question. I am not. I am simply stating I can point out to similiar in the scriptures. So far you have not shown a killing of non-believers.
“5. This is also consistent with: Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger said, “If anyone changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”—-This script can be found here: Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57). This is no different from what happened to Jesus and anyone else who went against the order of religion then. It speaks on what is called apostasy.
“The author of the thread does not mention anything about the first 3 centuries of Islam expanding by the sword, which contrary to popular Islamic and liberal propaganda, was what the Crusades were a response to”—That is not an excuse for using something equally as misleading.
LikeLike
Sharinalr,
I agree with what you said, I just agree with it on both sides, which would also mean that the claim that “Christians are more violent” as a conclusion on this blog is very suspect, based your own logic. If you are only giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt and not Christians, then this would also be wrong. I have asked the author to gives sources for the number of deaths caused by Muhammad and his followers 7th – 11th centuries, and 1000 – 1500 in India. I’m still waiting.
Not so fast. We’re still examining this 😀
I agree Surah 9:29 does not use the word “murder”. However…
1. I would argue that killing someone simply because they are an unbeliever is murder. All the more in that the context of this is not about defensive war. It is killing in order to get Jews and Christians to pay tax, and because people are unbelievers.
2. Islamic groups like ISIS, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, etc. are acting consistently with Muhammad, the Quran, the Hadith, and its chief commentators when killing people simply because they’re not Muslims.
3. Even Deut does not command to kill unbelievers, nor anywhere else in the Bible, thus you have failed to offer a “similar” text in the Bible.
4. The law in Deut was given to the Hebrew community which later became the Israelites. These laws were for them while under that covenant, which is now obsolete (cf. Heb 9:13). Hence, Deut 17:7 says, “So you shall purge the evil from your midsts.” These laws were for just the Hebrews to uphold the high standards of holiness that the community was already living in up to when the law was given.
The tu quequo fallacy isn’t limited to only morality and past actions. In general it refers to someone arguing that something also occurs. My overarching point is that we see the liberal media and Muslim apologists often saying “but the Bible says that too” as a common default response to avoid dealing with the Quran and Hadith.
1. Jesus was not charged by the Jews for apostasy, but for claiming to be the Messiah. The Jews viewed this as a blasphemy charge, not a conversion charge. Jesus did not claim to be a non-Jew, but claimed to be the Messiah.
2. If you agree that this is why Jesus was historically charged by the Jews, then you are committing shirk and can no longer be a Muslim. Namely, because Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 when on trial and applies it to himself, which would mean that Jesus, one of the great Prophets according to Islam, claimed to be more than a mere Rasul.
You can never reach God because he is infinitely holy. Grace and peace in the Lord Jesus Christ to you. He is the only way to God because he comes to us as sinners, and rose from the dead so as to defeat death.
LikeLike
@Cameron
“I agree with what you said, I just agree with it on both sides, which would also mean that the claim that “Christians are more violent” as a conclusion on this blog is very suspect, based your own logic.”—No one ever said that it was not on both sides. That isn’t the conclusion on the blog. That is actually the conclusion that people who don’t understand the point of the blog come to.
“If you are only giving Muslims the benefit of the doubt and not Christians, then this would also be wrong.”—No one is giving either side the benefit of the doubt, but when you present half truths and false information then it must be challenged. The post is not about who is or is not better or worse.
“I have asked the author to gives sources for the number of deaths caused by Muhammad and his followers 7th – 11th centuries, and 1000 – 1500 in India. I’m still waiting.”—And you will likely wait. One of the reasons maybe because you missed the point of the post to such an extent that he does not feel the need to address. Another is that if he never made a claim on such time period then it is not for him to provide. You want to know it so from a debating stand point you will need to research it. This act is a fallacy. Burden of proof I believe.
“Not so fast. We’re still examining this”—We are not still examining. As sly as you may try to be it is clear your stance in your comments. 🙂
“1. I would argue that killing someone simply because they are an unbeliever is murder.”—It is, but none of the text speaks on killing anyone for that matter. If we look at the text for 9:29 it states “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture – [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.” You are confusing killing with fighting. Fighting has several meanings and killing is not one of them. Fight can be found in all the others you mentioned and nothing on killing. If you know their scriptures then you know that when they mean to kill they are not shy on saying such.
“2. Islamic groups like ISIS, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, etc. are acting consistently with Muhammad, the Quran, the Hadith, and its chief commentators when killing people simply because they’re not Muslims.”—This is a nice opinion as you have not provided anything that supports this belief. Repeating it won’t make the sources you provided align with it.
“3. Even Deut does not command to kill unbelievers, nor anywhere else in the Bible, thus you have failed to offer a “similar” text in the Bible.”—-I never claimed it did. Let me requote what I said. “Please show me a text that is consistent with this and I will show you how it is twisted and text that says similar in Christian bible.” To break it down. I asked you to show me text that is consistent, which you were not able to do. I said of that text you provide I could show how it was twisted and christain text that is similar. Of the text you provided, you provided proof of how people twist it and the text I provided is similar in nature to what people can and do take to mean otherwise. Sorry if you were confused, but in the long run I provided what I said I would.
“4. The law in Deut was given to the Hebrew community which later became the Israelites.”—This is quite irrelevant.
“The tu quequo fallacy isn’t limited to only morality and past actions.”—I don’t remember saying it was, but it is a false accusation to say the least. One that does require that this be a response against the opponent. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html
“1. Jesus was not charged by the Jews for apostasy, but for claiming to be the Messiah. The Jews viewed this as a blasphemy charge, not a conversion charge. Jesus did not claim to be a non-Jew, but claimed to be the Messiah.”—I did not say he was, but apostasy has many meanings like all things. The matter of turning away from the ways and principles in which the jews established is a form of apostasy. Him claiming to be the Messiah is as well.
“2. If you agree that this is why Jesus was historically charged by the Jews, then you are committing shirk and can no longer be a Muslim. Namely, because Jesus quotes from Daniel 7 when on trial and applies it to himself, which would mean that Jesus, one of the great Prophets according to Islam, claimed to be more than a mere Rasul.”—-This all rest on if you believe in the mythical gods to begin with.
LikeLike
Everyone hates witches!
http://biblehub.com/kjv/exodus/22.htm
Ex 22:18
“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.”
LikeLike
Or you gonna say that’s Jewish
LikeLike
“3. Even Deut does not command to kill unbelievers, nor anywhere else in the Bible, thus you have failed to offer a “similar” text in the Bible.”—Actually this needs to be expanded upon because Deut actually is commanding the killing of nonbelievers.
17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded
This is referring to the worship of any that is not the lord thy god.
17:5 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Is specifically saying stoning them to death. Not to hurt or to fight them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+17&version=KJV
Even though I had a different purpose in bringing this to light, I am confused on where you get the idea that it is not commanding the killing of nonbelievers. The reasons for the law being in place and who was to uphold them and when it stopped has nothing to do with whether or not it is in the bible or not.
LikeLike
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malleus_Maleficarum
LikeLike
@ Cameron
The conclusion of the blog is NOT that Christians are more violent. If that is what you think, you need to reread the post. The whole thing. To the end.
LikeLike
@ Cameron
Are you paying me to be your research assistant? You look it up. The burden of proof is not on me to prove your straw man argument. The post takes into account that the number killed by Muslims before 1900 might be low. Maybe it is 260 million, as some Islamophobes claim. Even if it is, that does not affect my argument.
LikeLike
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ankara-explosions-multiple-casualties-turkish-capital-reports-n442176?924
“Ankara Explosions: 86 Killed, 186 Hurt Before Rally in Turkish Capital”
LikeLike
I was watching some show “Ancient Aliens” and they had the Muslims destroying all the statues and historical sites, that stuff drives me nuts to see.
LikeLike
@v8driver
Yes, but the link you posted some people will view it as a Muslim jihad when from reading the article that was not the case. It was a sad situation none the less and innocence lost their life.
LikeLike
@sharina that’s the implication by the article.
LikeLike
@v8driver
“that’s the implication by the article.”—-That is not what I got from reading the article. It speaks on an attack, but makes no mention of who did it or if it is even Muslim related. Though the mere mention by U.S. officials of “terrorist” attacks will make a seasoned islamophobe believe it was a Muslim Jihad. Realistically this was likely political.
LikeLike
@sharina it’s hard for me to define, while never explicitly stated, but subtextually conferred to imply muslims? Besides being american msm, also, the mention of a second explosion, set to trap ‘first responders’
LikeLike
@v8driver
I will reread to see if I can detect any of those implied Muslim statements. I must admit my concentration is a bit hindered with this cold.
LikeLike
@sharina np, this one just reminds me of the olympic park bombing, it’s a peace rally , know what i mean?
LikeLike
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-news/at-least-20-dead-in-blast-near-ankara-train-station-in-turkey-say-reports/
IDK, my gut is a warning from IS against obviously Turkey’s airbase, escalated operations, etc.; or it could be sectarian and ethnic politics, it’s in an avowedly muslim country, Turkey…
That’s the thing about power, someone’s always seeing an angle to step up!
LikeLike
Reblogged this on 1voiceoftruth's Blog and commented:
You can be sure that white Christians will have a justification.
LikeLike
“A bomber blew himself up at a gathering of left-wing activists, killing 32 people. The attack was apparently ordered by IS.”
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33690060?post_id=1489932727_10207633948635335#_=_
LikeLike
@V8driver
Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you. I have not forgotten, but I am preparing for a relatives wedding.
LikeLike
You left out the Muslim slave trade, that killed over 100 million blacks. In the name of Prophet Muhammed 275 million people have been killed your numbers are in complete error. Also in the Quran and Hadith there’s over hundred surah s or verses that command the death,rape,torture ,and to wage war against unbelievers. In the Bible the New Covenant or New Testament what Christians live by we are commanded by Yeshua or Jesus Christ to love or enemies and if you get slapped to let him slap the other cheek, and to love your neighbor as ourselves. Jesus said to even hate your brother is considered murder. And the Christian Jesus is not the same Jesus that’s in your Quran. It’s a false Jesus, the Jesus in the Quran was written by somebody 900 years after he died that never meet him or anybody that knew him. In the Bible the men that write about Yeshua or Jesus actually walked with Him and spoke to Him for years. Jesus was divine and died for mankind so man could receive salvation, and Yeshua ressurected and now sits on the right side of Abba or Father and He is our High Priest and mediator because of His grace. Also WW2 had two leaders that were atheist. Alot of these wars are Atheism. There is nothing wrong with muslims I love muslims, but when a Muslim opens up the Quran and decides to be obedient to Muhammed that’s when I have to disagree it’s a religion of murder,hate,rape, and torture.
LikeLike
@ Joseph Clark
Did you read the whole post?
LikeLike
I am still trying to figure out why these people are like “but the new testament said.” The bible is not made up of just the new testament. Not to mention every time they claim the Quran says something it turns out to be of their imagination.
LikeLike
@Joseph Clark
I am interested to know where you got the 100 million as well as the 275 million. I have found no source that actually supports it, but I believe it was addressed up thread so I will simply repost a link to it.
“Also in the Quran and Hadith there’s over hundred surah s or verses that command the death,rape,torture “—When you find these versus, and I mean versus actually saying this and not what you think it says, then get back to me.
LikeLike
@ Zefus Korinski
Your comment has been deleeted for plagiarism. You are banned for the same reason.
LikeLike
Are you kidding me. Really Christians have killed more whatever. The Crusades were defensive in nature. Oh and the Army is made up not only Christians but all, and even atheist. To say the Christians are more violent is a lie. Also most wars are wars to assist other countries. As in Vietnam Americans not Christians went to fight the spread of Asia communism to South Vietnam. Then Korea was the attempt to halt the unwarranted spread of North Korea to the south. Kosovo was stopping of the Serbians from Killing off muslims. Bosnia was defending muslim and the NATO force there were not all Christian and neither was the enemy. Your study is full of Flaws and only attempt to put the blame on Christians. There was never anyone Carrying a Cross and saying “God is greater” and attacking a group but you do see it in the muslims when every action is cover with the term Allah Akbar. Armies are not made up of Christians when you join the army they dont say hey we only want Christians. In the American Army now we have all religions. From Christians to muslim and people that have no religion at all. This study is just another way to further either the muslim propaganda or the atheist propaganda.
LikeLike
oh wow, i am up to about psalm 2 on the OT, sheesh judges, kings and chronicles was kickin my butt but the county gave me a week off work…
LikeLike
i guess it is important to preserve what is considered the ‘seed’ families or genetic threads, and well i got lost on when judah split off from israel and stuff but the numbers of the battles went up it’s like a cartoon or something, 42000 slain on this battle field, i was looking for the maps in there they didn’t have it so … the OT is a hard read
LikeLike
http://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm
yeah, doesn’t the cross violate the ‘graven image’ technical specification as in the short list of stuff not to do in the bible
LikeLike
yeah, doesn’t the cross violate the ‘graven image’ technical specification as in the short list of stuff not to do in the bible
Yes, it does, however, people choose to interpret religious writings to conform to whatever their world view is. In many instances, they resort to violence to enforce their political views, this under the guise of whatever religion they adhere to. In many instances, religion is used as a path to power.
LikeLiked by 3 people
i have been writing about the catholic church being a ‘spirtual vampire’ off the forces of imperialism and colonialism for months now here jesus i don’t have time to make all this stuff into a book
LikeLiked by 1 person
which also influences i guess my interaction with mirkwood i am not a fan of the catholic church
LikeLike
keep it 100 jews and muslims, wear a head covering don’t eat shellfish/pork, salaam solomon shalom
LikeLike
Abagond,
Have you considered doing a post on Malcolm X’s recently discovered letter in which is found his idea on how racism in the US can be eradicated?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/malcolm-x-letter-found-and-now-on-sale_5624ee2fe4b0bce347013f14
LikeLiked by 2 people
@ v8driver
I agree with Herneith. If you read the whole Bible you will find that almost no one follows the whole thing. Instead they pick and choose and then even twist the parts that they chose.
So when non-Muslims jump on here and starting quoting the Koran to prove how violent Muslims are, I just roll my eyes. The Bible can and has been twisted in just the same way.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ Fan
Thanks. I did not know about that letter.
LikeLike
I don’t remember Hitler forcing people to convert to Christianity or have their heads cut off. I also don’t remember Hitler holding the bible in the air with a warning to the world that all must convert. If this latest group of terrorist aren’t Muslims than my name’s Obama.
LikeLike
@Jim
Unless you lived during that time, in that place, then you likely remembered nothing, but have been subjected to what was told to you.
Also I don’t remember Muslims doing any of what you said either.
LikeLike
@Jim
You are correct that the Nazi leadership were not Christian extremists, as one might call ISIS Muslim extremists. This is most obvious by the fact that even if a Jew converted to Christianity sincerely it did nothing to curry their favor. Race, not religion, was their primarily motivator. That being said, the Nazis definitely exploited the religious anti-Semitism that Christianity had long fostered in Europe. They simply infused it with their own racial brand of anti-Semitism.
LikeLike
Can you be more ignorant to reality? Who writes this kind of junk? More importantly who is ignorant enough to buy into this nonsense? Christians don’t go to any war or start any violence, PERIOD. A Christian follows Christ and thus loves his neighbor as himself and as Christ taught lives in peace. When Godless men do barbaric acts in the name of Christianity while not following Christ are they Christians? Of course not. Islam’s founder was a tyrant. In fact, in his writings you can find Muhammad praising his favorite general that slaughtered thousands of town folks by cutting their head off before promising to have a river run red with their blood if only allah would bless them in battle.
When you veer away from Christ you get violent and when you go towards allah you get violent. Pure and simple.
LikeLike
@Some One
Interesting. Then explain the kkk? I would make the list bigger, but I thought it best to start small.
LikeLike
Someone, are Christians more violent than Muslims? Is the pope Catholic? Does a bear defecate in the woods? These are earth shattering things to ponder!
LikeLiked by 1 person
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207824639202480&id=1489932727&refid=52&ref=bookmarks
LikeLike
@V8
At some point they are going to have to learn to leave those people alone and stop playing victim when they attack back.
LikeLike
> Till people start calling violence by Christians “Christian”, it is Islamophobic to call violence by Muslims “Muslim”.
I wonder how many of these Christian wars are “Christian” in that the New Testament was cited as the reason for the war (rather than just greed, geopolitics and power). Today many of the attacks in the world by Muslims seem to be actually based on the ideas of God.
If you were to list “holy wars” I think you may find a different outcome.
Then there is the sheer amount of violence towards Christians by Muslims. Still the Crusades are cited, which IIRC stopped in the 15th C
LikeLike
And? It gets asymmetrical on both sides, curiouser and curiouser!
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207853789491219&id=1489932727&refid=52
LikeLike
Where Christians are commanded to love everyone including their enemies, to forgive infinitely, forbidden to return evil for evil and are commanded if at all possible to live peaceably with all men. Where even the thought of ill will is sin that doesn’t leave much room to do anything against anyone. Now there are many false Christians doing the bidding of Satan and the largest organized false Christian church was to rise out of the Roman Empire as per prophecy. What a better way for Satan to discredit the people of God than to use their name and commit all sorts of atrocities, though I am sure there are also opportunists, political and ignorant individuals using the Christian title also, the end result to all those groups will be hell just the same.
Now on the other hand Islam basically teaches the opposite. The more devout and the more pious a Muslim is the more violence will be evidenced. Or do you not think that Mohammad knew the proper way to interpret the Quran? Mohammad is the ultimate example of true Islam any other interpretation is apostate and Mohammad would have had them killed that believe contrary to him. After all Muhammad is the prophet of Allah and the Quran the words of Allah.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
The evidence and result of Islam following the words of Allah, all of his words.
.https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/06/19/muslims-have-killed-over-590-million-non-muslims-since-the-birth-of-mohammed/
590+ million murders in the name of Allah all with Quran affirmation and the count is still going up. Each year more people are killed by Islam than all 350 years of the Spanish inquisition combined.
LikeLike
@Rick Adams
Sadly all you said was debunked over several posts on this thread. Pick one.
LikeLike
Percentage ( wise ) ; How many muslims are essentially ( non practicing ) …or muslims only in name ? As the vast majority of ” Christians are that you listed ??? ” not a serious attempt to understand the world ” ….thats RICH !!! Yea…coming from LIBTARD intellectual children who have no regard for the Truth what -ever , unless it suits their narrative ! When yas gonna grow up ? I’m pretty sure its NEVER ! All you’ll ever do is twist the Truth to make it say what yas want it to ( and you’ll never be more than just what ya are ) EVIL !
LikeLike
to put the record strait the inquisitions started to combat Islam and not before
LikeLike
@James Scarrone
Whining and name calling is not a sign that you are grown up. So I find it odd that you would choose wording that would fit you and not the people you are talking to. Secondly the lib names are lame as often times they are directed at people who are not.
Do research. You fear the truth.
LikeLiked by 2 people
It s not because Christians killef more than muslims that the muslims have to go on killing people in God s name.
We learnt from the past, the muslim fanatics want to back to crusades. Telling this is not islamophobia. Islamophobia would be to do like Daesh is doing to christians yazzidis in Irak. Like muslim countries do when a muslim becomes christian, apostasia…
LikeLike
To sharinalr:
Then explain the kkk?
I’d say it’s a fairly reasonable argument that the KKK had a Christian influence (certainly version 2.0 with the large US membership, regenerated in teens but shown to be disreputable (at least to most white protestants finally and to some extent the latter version) by the end of the 20s. They used the Christian cross multiple times as a symbol (on their robes and of course the notorious burning of a cross ) and frequently invoked God.
However. Hitler and company were privately highly contemptuous of Christianity and thought the religion made Germans week, and after all Jesus and his disciples were Jews. They tried to co-opt the Christian churches with their own brand of mock Christianity but largely failed.Their eventual goal was to eliminate Christianity from Germany altogether after they won the war. Yes I know there are speeches and public comments saying otherwise but the upper echelon of the National Socialists were profligate liars, conning and fooling at least temporarily the British, French, Russians, multiple Americans, and even some Zionist Jews.
LikeLike
@ Uncle Milton
Whatever Hitler’s private beliefs, the Holocaust was rooted in hundreds of years of Christian anti-Semitism. Hitler could not have killed millions of Jews on his own.
I remember right after 9/11, President Bush was careful to warn against Islamophobia. But that hardly means that the wars that followed and what is going on right now is not driven in part by Islamophobia and the Christian orientation of most Americans.
Likewise, Southerners quote Lincoln to “prove” the civil war was not about slavery.
LikeLike
Uncle Milton
Great. I will assume the second paragraph has nothing to do with me as I did not mention Hitler.
LikeLike
@ Abagond
Not untrue. But it doesn’t really mean anthing. Marxism is also rooted in Christianity. Nobody would say that the crimes of communists can therefore be ascribed to it. One cannot get around the fact that National Socialism had at best an opportunistic relationship with Christianity and the core of the ideology was profundly opposed to it. That makes it very different from the relationship of Islam and Islamism.
LikeLike
@ Kartoffel
If in a hundred years the West is ruled by a string of petty vassal states whose leaders are puppets of the Caliphate, Christianist parties would no doubt arise. Some of them would be violent and terroristic, like the IRA or LRA. Would that prove that Christianity is naturally more violent than Islam? Or would the shoe just be on the other foot?
LikeLiked by 2 people
The top 15 countries by military spending ($billions spent in 2014):
Christian-majority states:
581.0 US
70.0 Russia
61.8 Britain
53.1 France
43.9 Germany
31.9 Brazil
24.3 Italy
22.5 Australia
—————–
888.5 Total
Muslim-majority states:
80.8 Saudi Arabia
18.9 Iraq
—————-
99.7 Total
Other states:
129.4 China
47.7 Japan
45.2 India
34.4 South Korea
23.2 Israel
—————
279.9 Total
Percentages:
70.1% Christian-majority
7.9% Muslim-majority
22.1% Other
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t think any religion is ‘naturally’ more violent.
Religion is a set of personal beliefs.
Religions the world over are used by the rich and powerful to justify their actions.
It is those rich and powerful people who are greedy and violent.
Not the religions themselves.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ Abagond
I don’t think religions are naturally anything. And when a Christian anti-liberal ideology rises again, we will deal with it then. But right now the threat to our societies by such groups is hardly substantial. And that has a lot to with the fact that mainstream Christianity has accepted and supports liberalism. That cannot be said about mainstream Islam.
LikeLike
By liberalism I mean classical liberalism of the 19th century. As Western societies are more or less build on the principles of that political thought system, everybody who supports these political systems is a liberal in the broad meaning. Even if they are called conservatives or social democrats in everday political life.
LikeLike
That is probably because conservatives see muslims as a threat to the national identity. If there were no violent Islamists they would hate muslims anyway.
But that doesn’t take away from the fact that Islamists pose an objective threat not just to the physical safety of the population, but also to the ideological make-up of a liberal politiy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
My favorite part of reading Muslim apologist articles is the parts where they never talk about the countless wars of the Ottoman Empire, the treatment of Merchants that led to Barbary Wars, the Armenian Genocide, or the Muslim slave trade in which 100 million Africans+ were slaughtered for religious reasons, nor do they touch on the sex-trade of the Middle East, and that is rampant from Muslim immigrant communities that move into Europe, or any of the well documented human rights abuses present in Muslim nations of today, while finger-waving European nations from so many years ago. I’m atheist but it’s apparent to me that Muslim apologists are brainwashed on their own propaganda they so often invoke. Please, if you love Muslims so much, feel free to live in their Countries, I won’t hate you for it; but I simply don’t wish to be around them myself. I think it’s within reason for me to not want to be around Islam, just as they likely do not want me in their countries.
LikeLike
@Ted Nugent
My favorite part of reading pretend Atheist posts is the parts where they never get the point of the post and go on to make a long paragraph about how they lack enough reading comprehension to get it.
LikeLike
@Ted Nugent:
If you are the real ‘Ted Nugent”, you’re music is crap!
LikeLike
I started reading this blog with interest. Unfortunately I got as far as the second entry in the WARS section, the second item after murder rate and stopped reading. You categorized the Reconquista as a Christian war and attributed the 7M deaths to Christians. It appears you are just posting statistics to justify your predetermined position. If you researched this at all or knew anything about history you would know that the Christians were reclaiming the land that had been taken by the Muslims Moors by force from the Christians previously. This can not be classified as a Christian atrocity or a Muslim atrocity, though you might be able to classify it as both.
This was the continuation and retaliation of Christians because of the Muslim Moors military actions against Christians and taking land and territory from them. Sadly I had hoped to find some real unbiased information about Muslim and Christian violence, but unbiased information is not to be found here.
LikeLike
@ Chris from CA
In this case the bias is mostly yours.
In the very first line of the post I said:
Despite your apparent literacy you chose to ignore that. Why? In my experience, it is probably because you harbour deep-seated biases about the subject. You wanted to find any reason to condemn the article and jumped on the first apparent example you found.
Up until the last paragraph the post is meant to be wildly biased. That was the point. But you betrayed your own bias.
LikeLike
The author left out the Muslim invasion of India which left 80 million dead over a period of 800 years. The longest war in history.
LikeLike
@ Jacques Gauthier
I do have Aurangzeb. Do you have any sources?
LikeLike
Some references to the invasion of India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests_on_the_Indian_subcontinent
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMY2YV9WucY)
Also, the author mentioned the European slave trade in its death toll count but neglected to mention these slaves were primarily purchased from areas where the religion was primarily Muslim. Morocco, Tunisia, Lybia, Algeria for example so I don’t see how it is uniquely a Christian death toll. European slavery was abolished in 1807. The last Muslim countries to outlaw slavery were Saudi Arabia and Yemen in 1962.
A lot of the conflicts mentioned weren’t religious conflicts or included people who weren’t Christian. WWII was counted as a Christian conflict but you had Japan and China who were at war. Neither of these countries are primarily Christian. The U.S was brought into the war by Japan. After the War Japan did not have to convert to Christianity so it was not a conflict based on religion. The Emperor had to stop claiming he was a god but that was it.
Similarly the Ottoman Empire forced every people they conquered to either convert to Islam or to pay a tax to keep their religion. They used this money to finance more conquests. When the Ottoman empire lost WWI they did not have to convert to Christianity. So the claim that WWI is a religious Christian conflict is bunk.
In both WWI and WWII and wars that followed have large corporations make huge fortunes from the fighting. These are wars of money and resources not religion.
LikeLike
Jacques Gauthier
How deceitful of you? The 80 million is a nice little estimate of population decline, but your source has no mention of what caused it. Your YouTube source is no better. Try again
LikeLike
How funny the people that are mad about the truth.. mainly the hypocrite christians or .hypo-cristians. No one has killed more innocent men, woman and children in the name of religion, than christians.. Nobody has destroyed, lied, stolen, raped and murdered more than whites. They deny and lie. The crusades, inquisition and attempted genocide of indians alone is more than the rest of the world, and thats not even including the holocaust and blacks.
They complain about muslims denying woman rights but do the very same shit to the gays.. lol They call people defending themselves from attack, terrorists.. and the attackers, heroes! lol..
They condemn the muslims killing innocent woman and children and have killed 100 x more of them just in the last 10 years alone.. They call muslims religious fanatics, while they use god as an excuse for everything they do.. It’s absolute lunacy.. The problem isn’t just muslims.. it’s them!
It’s religion period! but they will deny it .. why? cause they’re fanatics. The real threat isn’t terrorism, it’s stupidity and ignorance. Religion needs to be wiped out ..
LikeLike
This post does not really offer any helpful information. It is simply a conclusion desparately grasping for evidence. The conclusison “It is Islamaphobia to call Muslims violent” is not supported by the evidence.
The use of statistics is disingenuous. First, you ignore all Muslim wars from AD 600 to AD 1370. Secondly, you characterize the Crusades as simply a “Christian” war and completely ignore the fact that the Muslim armies had been killing, marauding, raping, pillaging their way through the Holy Land and eventually, the European continent. The Crusades were a military counterpunch to the Muslim invasion of the Holy Land. Thirdly, you attribute the wars caused by secularism to Christianity. The French Revolution, the Napoleonic wars, WWI, WWII, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Nazis, etc. were not the fault of Christians.
One fatal flaw in this article is that it assumes all violence is bad. There are some situations where violence is necessary to preserve life. Anoter fatal flaw is to ignore ALL of the violent passages in the Qur’an and the ignominious example of Muhammad that encourage Muslims to kill for Allah. Unlike in the Old Testament, there is no specific context in the Qur’an that limits the killing to a specific time period, or to a particular group of people.
In order for us to accept your conclusion, we have to ignore the tenets of Christianity and the tenets of Islam; we have to revise the facts of history; and we have to suppress the truth in order to swallow a lie.
The problem with Christianity is the imperfect people who claim to follow Christ. The proble with Islam is Islam. Violent Jihad is Islam despite your not wanting to believe it. That most Muslims do not want to be violent is laudible, but they have to ignore their Qur’an and the example of their most revered prophet in order to live peaceably.
LikeLike
Frontncenter, you are the one in denial, believing in lies. Even if you can attribute religious wars to Christianity rather than to sinful people who claim to be Christians, the killing caused by wars of godless secularism/atheism of the 20th century far exceeded all religious killings throughout all of history. Get your facts straight, or put your hand down.
LikeLike
The Truth: In their comprehensive Encyclopedia of Wars, Phillips and Axelrod document the recorded history of warfare. Of the 1,763 wars presented, a mere 7% involved a religious cause. When Islam is subtracted from the equation, that number drops to 3.2%.
In terms of casualties, religious wars account for only 2% of all people killed by warfare. This pales in comparison to the number of people who have been killed by secular dictators in the 20th century alone.
LikeLike
@ CS Brownwell
If Phillips and Axelrod are as bigoted as you are, their numbers mean nothing.
LikeLike
@ CS Brownwell
Where did I say violent jihad was not part of Islam?
LikeLiked by 1 person
1: Murders per 100,000 of a nation’s population has nothing to do with this argument whatsoever.
2: Many of the wars in the “Christian wars” section don’t specify that the wars aren’t waged in the name of Christianity, but for another goal i.e World War 1, the Russian Civil War, The Second World War, Vietnam War etc. etc.
3: The “Muslim wars” section doesn’t account for Mohammad’s conquests and the HUNDREDS of constant jihads waged by Islamic warlords in the 8th-21st centuries. If you actually did some research, you’d realise that it was a custom of Islamic caliphates to call for jihad whenever a noble came to power. The estimated number of dead due to Islam throughout the ages has been around 270 million. I can only imagine that this website is picking wars based on a criteria that the editor invented for his own goals.
4: The “Democide” section again has NOTHING to do with religion. Are you going to tell me that the Nazis killed people solely because they were Christian and not the obvious reasons like lebensraum and social darwinism?
5: The exact same can be applied to the Muslim democide section of the site.
6: “Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.”
L-M-A-O. Just contradicted his own article by saying that Hitler’s Christianity is misleading because he didn’t do what he did because he was Christian.
Checkmate.
LikeLiked by 1 person
snarfindorf
He actually didn’t contradict anything. If you were aware of the point of the post you would know that. The last paragraph makes the point quite clear. So…..
LikeLike
Wow! Those terrible terrible Christians! Shame on them!
I never knew that WW I, II & the Viet Nam wars were religious wars! Learn something new every day.
NOT!
If anyone can read this article and think the writer did not have an agenda in writing it, they are blind!
Reading the list of wars that he calls religious wars is laughable. It’s so far twisted it’s not even close to reality. But it probably makes Agabond feel better about rejecting God.
Whatever! People will believe what they want to believe!
LikeLike
abagond
I did list my source too. But when I do I get called out by sharinalr, yet you get a pass even if you post a blog as a source. Also, your entire list, especially using the logic of yourself and sharinalr on here, it’s dishonest of you to lump American wars into a “Christian” category. The schizophrenia just amazes me when lefists say we weren’t founded on Christianity when it suites them, then turn around and say we’re a Christian nation when it lets them politicize and agree with terrorist groups who want to overthrow the US with Shariah law how America is really the bad guy. It’s incredibly silly logic.
You might be Islamophobic if you’re afraid to look at the fact that over 300 million Muslims want Sharia law.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/?utm_source=mandiner&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=mandiner_201309
LikeLiked by 1 person
Cameron
That is not my logic, but made up bs you think all leftist believe. You will look less stupid if you ask what I think before assuming.
Secondly your source does not say 300 million Muslims want sharia law.
LikeLike
sharinalr
The “conclusion” of the blog is not much of a conclusion from the body of the post. It’s pretty disjointed and odd. It starts out asking if Christians are more violent than Muslims, then gives grossly incomplete and misleading data (which the last paragraph says not to do, huh?), selects secular wars and labels them as Christian, then leaves out the greatest holocaust in history by Muslims (actually in the name of Allah) then backtracks and says we shouldn’t label them all Christian or Muslim. Huh?
Most of it is with the title and then the skewed data to answer the title’s question. Then it gives a paragraph at the end to say not to do the very thing it just got done doing. I find this just amazing.
This is schizophrenic behavior. The title asks which is more violent, data is then shown for any killing in the name of religion over a million, then the numbers are totaled at the end, yet the greatest holocaust in history (actually done in the name of Allah as opposed to the non-Christian secular wars listed on this post) is left out. The burden of honesty and consistency is still profoundly wanting on this post.
Please don’t be examine-phobic. We will now examine it some more and find some surprising truths.
LikeLike
sharinalr
The logic I’m referring to is akin to the OP last paragraph where you both say out of another side of your mouths that we aren’t to lump religions into secular government wars. I agree with that logic, but it doesn’t seem like you guys actually do in practice, hence the reasons I’ve given and your apologetic nature of the post.
If you add the totals up yourself you get about 300 million, and that’s at least.
LikeLike
Cameron
You don’t seem to be working with a full deck of cards. The post is set up that way to display the hypocrisy that islamophobes have by switching it up on them. That was explained to you the last time you commented, so the conclusion you get is based on you not getting the post to begin with.
“This is schizophrenic behavior.—-Actually it is not and calling it such does not make your argument any more logical.
The quotes you posted did not reveal anything. I mean it really only reveals how magically serious you are making something because you don’t grasp a simple concept. Yet will not admit being wrong.
LikeLike
@ Cameron
You are completely missing the point of the post. It is to point up the hypocrisy of Islamophobic thinking by applying it to Christians, to make it easier to see for those who live in Christian-majority countries (most visitors to this blog live in such countries). I do not speak in my own voice till the last paragraph. The rest is parody of the number-twisting and category error that bigots practise.
The trouble with that approach, as I now see, is that Islamophobia is not an intellectual belief but an emotional one, one beyond the reach of facts and reasons. It seems that Islamophobes are the very ones who wilfully miss the point:
LikeLiked by 1 person
Gorge Orwell:
Just replace “Ingsoc” with “Islamophobia” and you have a fair description of much of this thread.
What Orwell calls crimestop I call being wilfully obtuse:
LikeLike
@Cameron
“Remember, we are looking at context.”—I may be looking at context, but you are not. In order for you to look at context you would have to address the context of the full chapter and so far you are trying to context two versus to each other and declare that fighting means killing. You did prove my point that if they mean killing they will say it. So you still have not shown or proved that fighting in verse 9:29 means killing as you claimed. So in all honesty you are still the one that is incorrect.
“Muslims have this type of thinking today based on their texts.”—This is highly illogical thinking. No book from centuries ago can tell you the type of thinking Muslims have.
” Just because you have a nice opinion that Muslims don’t base these things on their texts doesn’t make it so.”—One Muslim on youtube, when I can find one muslim on youtube that says otherwise. Besides I never had the opinion that Muslims don’t base these things on their texts. Get back to me with facts. Not opinions.
“There is no twisting of Surah 9:29.”—That is false. You can twist anything and it is evident from what you wrote above. You tried to twist the meaning of the word fighting, when it means just that based on the text itself. It is also a matter of interpretation, which anyone can do and is more likely to do when bias. This also comes about as a result of reading one verse. Another thing you constantly have done.
“Just pedantically saying it only applies to the person you’re talking to is only making you waste your time in refusing to grasp the overarching point which is still true.”—I don’t think so and if you understood it in usage you would not either. Even in the link, it is making it clear that it applies to the person you are talking to. It is simply a matter of turning an accusation back against said accuser. All the while not really addressing the issue. Learn how and when a fallacy applies before using it and you won’t be dancing around how you falsely used it.
“Not quite in this context. There was no established principle of who exactly the Messiah was in the 1st century.”—-It does not matter if there was an established principle. The idea of claiming to be a God, Son of God, the Messiah, is still apostasy.
“where you both say out of another side of your mouths that we aren’t to lump religions into secular government wars.”—Do quote where I said that? So you can be clear on what exactly I said and what context I said it in, because I spent most of my time correcting your continued inaccuracies.
“If you add the totals up yourself you get about 300 million, and that’s at least.”—Your source only gives percentages in different areas and does not provide any other numerical value, so what numbers are you adding up or is to be added up? Your source, like others presented, do not support you again.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I doubt that anyone who cannot even understand a 500-word post could understand the Koran.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Caneron
“But when I do I get called out by sharinalr, yet you get a pass even if you post a blog as a source.”—The blog source you used was misleading and a source was provided to show why. You then proceeded to try to play “flip the script”. The problem with that is, even in flipping it does not negate the fact that what you presented was false and misleading to being with. That is frankly all you have been doing as a counter argument. You are not supporting your claims, but making them and expecting everyone to prove you wrong.
LikeLike
Read the Koran. It sums it all up – kill anyone who does not convert to the filthy vile cult called Islam. Ironically, Muslims have slaughtered more blacks in history than ANY OTHER GROUP. So funny to see blacks defending this cult from Hell. 120 MILLION Africans have been slaughtered by Islam. India was next at 80 MILLION. You are a deceived if you defend this cult, particularly as a woman. Wake Up!
LikeLike
Robert Jones
Unfortunately for you I have read the Koran and much of what is said and claimed by people.like you ends up not being the full trurh.
LikeLike
We as Christians should read Matthew 7:5. If you read the Koran like you read the Bible and you make conclusions based on your own human understanding your conclusions will obviously be …. . That is what Christians has done throughout history and that is why there is so many different Christian churches all with their own concept of what is written in the Bible. Christians are cults there is only one true Church (if you really want to know go search you will get a big surprise). Christian churches are popping up like mushrooms, and in what does mushrooms grow? There is only one bad religion satanism. It is your faith that will count at the end.
We as “Humans” that includes all religions (even Satanism) place our faith in people and they mislead us to do things. They mislead us with their words which do comes from the scriptures but are twisted in their meaning so as to benefit man. When you listen to your spiritual leaders take the message you receive and place it before God so he can show you the meaning. Only he knows the truth about what is written. No amount of studying will allow you to see God’s true words and their meaning.
True wisdom is knowing that we know nothing and all wisdom and knowledge comes from and belongs to God. We are fighting each other instead of fighting the true evil. The evil we should be fighting is inside each and every one of us darkening our hearts and spirits blinding us to the truth. We see the evil in others but not in our self’s. Very few has the strength and humility to accept that truth.
This is the beginning ….
LikeLike
Well…Why do you refer to America as White America? Especially when Obama’s been President now for 2 terms. Just say America or the U.S. – – we’ll all know what u mean. We all know there’s still ‘work to be done’ in areas of race but not only race, in MANY areas. When you say “White America” right there I know I’m not getting an unbiased view.
LikeLike
http://www.funnyjunk.com/The+reason+for+crusades/funny-pictures/5454861/
LikeLike
Absolutely biased
LikeLike
@tandbpike
Use a book. Read it. And get a better understanding of history than guessing history on a map.
LikeLike
Obviously a racist website attempting to deny Islam’s violence by condemning a ‘white’ kill ratio in the world.
These facts are skewed and manipulated to form an obvious bias.
This, in and of itself, completely negates any truth that this article may have had because:
Truth = the whole truth (100% not 99%), and nothing but the truth (100% not 101%)
otherwise it is a complete lie as it attempts to misdirect or misinform.
LikeLike
Are there more Christians than Muslims?
How many Christian women have been stoned to death?
How many Muslim women?
I don’t believe they are better or worse, their methods of dealing with some issues however are more barbaric
LikeLike
THE WORLDS BIGGEST HOLOCAUST IS SAID TO BE 80 TO 100 MILLION HINDUS KILLED IN THE 800 YEARS OF RULE BY VARIOUS INVADING MUSLIM DYNASTIES.IN ONE INCIDENT,THE BENGAL SULTANATE WAS SAID TO HAVE KILLED 100000 HINDUS IN ONE DAY. THE JUSTIFICATION WAS THAT HINDUS ARE KAFIRS AND IF THEY DIDN’T CONVERT,THEN KILLING THEM WAS SANCTIONED IN THE QURAN.
LikeLike
VIC
Source
LikeLike
@sharinalr
LOL!
Drive by shouters like VIC rarely have any sources besides their White Supremacy addled brains.
LikeLike
The figure of 80 million Hindus dying under the 700 years of Muslim rule comes from the book “Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India” by the Indian Historian Prof. K.S. Lal. It was published in 1973. I haven’t read it, so I can’t confirm what sources, if any, Prof. K.S. Lal uses in coming to his conclusion that 80 million Hindus died under various Muslim invaders/empires.
LikeLike
@Benjamin
Thanks for the information.
A cursory search for web sources only yielded questionable sources (hindu nationalists sites) and Western right wing anti-muslim sites. It seems a deeper search is necessary.
LikeLike
@Afrofem and Benjamin
The sources, including that book, do not show where they got the numbers from. That is why the simply choice is to ask for a source so you can see the deceit in the numbers themselves. Those people could of died of starvation and most islamophobes will say it was because of Muslims.
LikeLike
@sharinalr
Good point. I did notice that the first 30 results on the web were mostly sources with an axe to grind against Muslims: Hindu nationalists sites and Western right wing anti-Muslim sites.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Afrofem, Sharinalr
Yeah, I actually found that book on what looked like a Hindu nationalist site. Again, I’m not vouching for it as a credible source, just stating where that 80 million figure appears to have come from.
LikeLiked by 1 person
They are now! The past is relevant, but only for debate. Islam is invading by hook and by crook and bringing their Mohamad’s vile violence with them.
LikeLike
Brien Doyle
Update your tinfoil hat.
LikeLike
There is a difference in war and genocide.
Take also that America and most other ‘modern’ non-religious based countries (America’s, UK, EU, Russia for example) have varied religions and even atheist and agnostic groups.. So they are not ‘Christians’..
Then rework you ridiculous ideas..
Islam, like it or not.. Follows the Quran, Haiti, and Sarah guides which states that all not of the faith are enemies… It also states how to ‘deal’ with these people whether those of ‘the book’ or the others….Deception, Lying and Taqiyya (authorized in the faith of Islam ideas used) does not change the truth…
LikeLike
@Fred Morgan
A lot changes in context. Much of what you stated of Islam has a different meaning entirely when context is in play. For example most of what you claim is in regard to being attacked first. Meaning if you attack, harm, deceive etc. then they see fit to retaliate. Not to mention other religions reside in those areas regardless of relations among each other.
America and most Modern states say they are non-religious but function on a religious basis. Many states still carry laws that favor Christians. Many other religious groups still face discrimination and persecution. Many scriptures still hold the keys to how to handle or “deal” with people who are not Christians. And many Christians still deny those scriptures.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@sharinalr
How do you do it? “It” being making sense of these rambling, incoherent drive-by racists and Islamophobes?
You respond in a clear, commanding, coherent fashion to even the craziest ravings. I commend you! Your comprehension and patience are far superior to mine.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@Afrofem
I have had my moments, but for the most part I have a calm demeanor in general. Oddly enough I handle real life conversationso the exact same.
Right or wrong deliver with confidence.
LikeLike
@sharinalr
Good lesson. Thanks!
LikeLike
big fallacy in this is counting the reconquista and crusades as “christian “wars ! they were defensive wars against muslim barbarians who had been murdering and plundering for better than three hundred years before christianity had enough and struck back ! the number of dead in the crusades and reconquista must go to the list of muslim wars !
LikeLiked by 1 person
Did you count the homosexuals that Christians have thrown off roofs this year and the raped women they have stoned and the miscellaneous babies and soldiers beheaded/stabbed?
LikeLiked by 1 person
You are correct Joseph!
LikeLike
Joseph Mummerth
If you understood the post you would know it is actually pointing out double standards as a lot of “Muslim wars” were defensive wars too.
LikeLike
Mike Snowden
We could just count the lage amount of homosexuals and trans assaulted and/or killed by Christians. While Christians don’t stone raped women, they do a heck of a job of ostracizing them. Let us not ignore the fact that there are soldiers who are Christian and do kill Muslims. I would be ignoring my Christian roots if I failed to point out how Americans kills millions of babies with abortion.
LikeLike
@ Mike Snowden
I only count events that cause at least a million deaths.
@ Sharina
OMG, I completely left out abortion!!! That easily goes into the millions.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I stopped when I saw you counted the Crusades as a Christian war. The Crusades were a response to a Muslim invasion.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The analysis lacks a weighted average based on global population that will provide an equivalency analysis. It also lumps to many classifications (over simplifying) the definitions of violence (mixes apples, oranges, and tomatoes). Finally, it is leaving out historical time periods (see the timelines you offer), and does not provide enough proper historical analysis. In, summary the numbers might very well be accurate based on your citations, however they are not statistically accurate. It is simply raw data.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It is very easy to see that your analysis is lacking proper statistical calculations. Simply citing raw data and lumping everything into a Christian versus Islamic point of reference is very inaccurate from the standpoint of a mathematician. The posting’s raw data (might very well be accurate) however without proper segmentation and using it to point to a religiously dogmatic theory shows extreme bias and ignorance of logical reasoning and fact based analysis.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is a blog, not an academic tome. Whawas it like in 15th century Japan dear?
LikeLike
@Myomoto Mushashi
While what you says sounds like you might be intelligent, it is obvious that reading comprehension failed you.
“The posting’s raw data (might very well be accurate) however without proper segmentation and using it to point to a religiously dogmatic theory shows extreme bias and ignorance of logical reasoning and fact based analysis.”–
Also raw data is simply numbers or data with no manipulation. Once you subject it to your segmentation or religious dogmatic theory, then you are bringing in bias and ignorance. Mainly because the subjection of that is based on ideas that could in themselves be bias and lack logical reasoning and fact based analysis.
LikeLike
@David
You stopped when you realized you had no ability to comprehend or read the post. Which is likely a stop at the title.
LikeLike
http://www.israelislamandendtimes.com/muslims-massacred-669-million-non-muslims-since-622ad/
LikeLike
Golanv Waya
Your source contains the same erroneous information that was posted by other up thread by others. All of which have been disputed by others or myself. Especially the Thomas Sowell book which basically tries to blame slavery death(many of which took place at the hands of whites) on Muslims. Try again.
LikeLike
This needs to be repeated as this discussion is completely nonsense – Religion by any name has murdered throughout history and you jerks are fighting about who kills the most??!!:
“Obviously a racist website attempting to deny Islam’s violence by condemning a ‘white’ kill ratio in the world.
These facts are skewed and manipulated to form an obvious bias.
This, in and of itself, completely negates any truth that this article may have had because:
Truth = the whole truth (100% not 99%), and nothing but the truth (100% not 101%)
otherwise it is a complete lie as it attempts to misdirect or misinform.”
LikeLike
Brien,
The arguments never were who killed more and those with a the basic skill of reading comprehension knew that. Those who did not have it were trying hard to prove the evils of Muslims. Repeating that quote only highlights your lack of understanding of what the post was about, thus tossing you into the category of those that lack reading comprehension. Furthermore the article is about christians vs Muslims so where is this idea of condemning “white” coming from? Paranoia?
The arguments were meant to correct misinformation and call out hypocrisy. The numbers in the website are actually correct, but they are presented in a manner to highlight christian hypocrisy.
LikeLike
Who the hell do you think you are? What an arrogant POS you are!
Most of your posts are trying to chastise someone else when you don’t like their posts.
Start your own religion somewhere else!
All your religions are hypocritical, and all of them justify their murder rates.
And who cares who killed more!
Right now it is Islam which is on an invasion, conquest and control mode.
Also the right wing idiot Christians are trying to force their half-witted agenda on everybody again.
Just give your opinion and then shut up – you are right in only your own mind with your silly ‘reading comprehension’ attempt at insults.
LikeLike
Brien Doyle
You responded to me moron and I responded back. If your feelings were going to be hurt by my response then you might try not replying directly to me. I get a message from wordpress on direct responses. I chastise people when their post has false information and I provide sources to dispute it, so it is far from a matter of like or don’t like. Try again.
Why would I start my own religion? I never pushed one off in here to have that be a consideration.
If you read my post I already say they are no better than the other, so you are screaming about what you think I believe versus what I actually wrote. Which says that you either can’t read or can’t comprehend.
Right now both are on invasion conquest and control mode. Christians are trying to sugar coat it to the masses as “protecting or helping the less fortunate” or “war”.
I could give an opinion, but it is better to provide facts. Which is why I have sources and you seem to be missing them. So in short you provided an opinion based on your lack of ability to engage in reading comprehension (not an insult attempt, but a visual fact displayed by you) and then get mad because I chose to point it out. Classic. LOL.
LikeLike
@Brien Doyle:
Opinions are like anuses, everyone has one, dingleberry.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The real question depends on the country. Islam muslims have been fighting others and each other for centuries which is why it was stupid for Bush to interfere because he can’t solve a thousand year old grudge.
All it will do is bog him and America down in the mud and stagnant waters.
Obama’s problem is totally the opposite by allowing mosques in areas that are a slap in the face while saying “You can’t have a peaceful Christmas nativity scene in public!” but it’s all right to display Islamic propaganda out in public.
That’s hypocrisy.
Kinda like Nintendo apologists blaming their issues on *Sony* boys who talk technical because Nintendo apologists don’t know what the gobbly gok means.
LikeLike
@JackFrost
Placing a Christmas nativity scene on public land is very different from building a house of worship on private land.
A house of worship is not “propaganda”. If you don’t share the belief, you are free to go to a church, synagogue, or temple of your choice.
Your right to place and enjoy a nativity scene on your church grounds or in front of your own home remains unchanged. Nothing hypocritical about that.
LikeLike
@Afrofem
I agree with your points about public versus private land use, but it seems self-evident that any of worship – unless hidden from public view – is explicitly propagandistic in nature.
“Propaganda” in this sense meaning, the promotion of a view, belief or agenda in an effort to establish a consensus worldview in the population. Sure, you’re free to ignore it, but it’s there, prevalent and persistent; thus propaganda in the strict sense of the term.
For extreme examples, take a look at St. Peter’s Cathedral, descriptions of the 2nd Temple, any of the notable mosques, or grand Mormon Tabernacle (the list includes many other religions, of course): they each ostentatiously aggrandize and promote their respective religions.
LikeLike
@maxthedog
I see things differently.
To me propaganda involves ideas, information and persuasion. A house of worship, no matter how ostentatious, doesn’t persuade anyone to follow a particular belief or course of action. People can do that…buildings can’t.
Even adding other sensory inputs such as the Muslim call to prayer over loudspeakers, Catholic church bells, or Buddhist temple gongs still don’t meet the standard of propagandistic persuasion in and of themselves.
A speech, a film or a book can be propaganda, a building (and what goes on inside of it) not so much.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Afrofem
Very well said. You put it into a prospective that I have not considered.
LikeLike
@Afrofem
“To me propaganda involves ideas, information and persuasion. A house of worship, no matter how ostentatious, doesn’t persuade anyone to follow a particular belief or course of action. People can do that…buildings can’t.”
That’s a curious opinion that I’ve not come across. Also, I note that your connotation of “propaganda” *appears* to be predicated on successful persuasion.
Start with classic Roman architecture as commissioned by respective god-like emperors… what about any of these many examples *wasn’t* propagandistic in nature?
After reflecting on that and considering modern examples: Nazi Germany’s “Cathedral of Lights” at the Nueremberg rallies, any public plaza in North Korea, Italy, Russia, … even the monuments of downtown Washington D.C. . There are literally countless examples which to draw from…
I’m puzzled to understand how there’s any option *but* to conclude that architecture — which can obviously be, for example, “art” — cannot also be propaganda.
“To me propaganda involves ideas, information and persuasion.”
A building can represent an idea, information, and be persuasive. I referred to the example of St Peter’s because it addresses exactly what you’ve outlined.
Idea: “We represent the Orthodoxy of Christianity”
Information: all sorts of information is encoded in the design of a cathedral, from the Latin cross layout, to the important position and placement of the alter, the towering heights of the interior reaching upwards toward the heavens, the paintings and stained glass depicting events in the life of Jesus, Saints and martyrs, the housing of sacred artifacts, etc… — A building like this was *designed* with the specific intent of communicating information to an often illiterate community of worshipers. These aspects exist on both the interior and exterior of the examples I provided: Such architecture broadcasts its purpose at every opportunity.
Persuasion: Visiting a building like St Peter’s is –whatever your beliefs– an awe inspiring experience. Inspiring, warming for a believer; stomach-churning for a doubter… Such a structure says “look at us,we’re awesome and powerful, fear us and behave”.
Finally, consider the numerous examples throughout history of a religious group’s architecture being destroyed, or co-opted and taken over by a newly dominant religious group. We even see this in contemporary Europe where empty churches are being converted into mosques.
I respectfully submit to you that there’s a very good reason for this strongly evidenced phenomena, and it has much to do with the power of architecture as propaganda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_propaganda
LikeLike
@maxthedog
The aspects of architectural expression that other people see as propagandistic and therefore persuasive don’t meet the standard I set for truly effective propaganda. They don’t persuade or convert people who are not already sold on a particular belief system or course of action.
All of the examples you so graciously provided:
✵St. Peters Cathedral
✵Nazi Germany’s “Cathedral of Lights” at the Nueremberg rallies
✵Public plazas in North Korea
✵Monuments in Washington D.C.
were all built to re-enforce ideas, information and belief, not necessarily to persuade the unconverted to follow a different set of beliefs, ideas or courses of action.
This lack of persuasion is clearly demonstrated by the millions of tourists who visit these buildings annually and are not sold on the ideas and information conveyed by these buildings and monuments. Tourists are able to appreciate the aesthetics and history of the structure without being persuaded by the ideas behind the structure.
Likewise, academics and researchers can study and interpret the ideas, information and beliefs encoded in the structure without being converted or persuaded by the information they encounter in their research.
So to me, persuasion is at the core of effective propaganda. The level of persuasion needed to truly alter a belief and the actions that flow from that belief is most effectively conveyed through direct interpersonal contacts and media.
LikeLike
@Afrofem
“The aspects of architectural expression that other people see as propagandistic and therefore persuasive don’t meet the standard I set for truly effective propaganda.”
But… does @JackFrost care about the standards *you’ve* set?
Rather, I suspect he cares about the common, uncontroversial use of the term “propaganda”, and that’s what we should be talking about here.
LikeLike
If I understand correctly what she is saying, I don’t see it as uncontroversial to the actual meaning of propaganda.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
non sequitur
LikeLike
@ maxthedog
JackFrost’s comment does not specify what he or she consider’s “Islamic propaganda”. That person could mean buildings, radio shows, books, public demonstrations or symbols. In this case, it is reasonable for me to define what I see as effective propaganda. To me, the only propaganda worth discussing is effective propaganda.
Effective propaganda persuades.
I read the wikipedia article you linked to in your comment. Based on the reasoning in that article any human made structure, including a mud hut, could be deemed propaganda. I also researched other articles regarding architectural propaganda. What I gathered from them is that architecture as a propaganda tool is most effective when its targets are illiterate and rely on symbols and belief instead of ideas and information.
Buildings, monuments and other structures seem to reinforce ideas and beliefs.
Two examples illustrate the point:
1. Many people in the Malaysian peninsula and the Islands of Indonesia were once Buddhists, Hindus and Animists. It was through contact with merchants from Yemen and Persia that Malaysians and Indonesians adopted Islam. Dr. Nazeer Ahmed, PhD explains what prompted the conversions:
2. Romans during the Imperial period, lived in a monument rich environment, yet were overcome by Christianity not because of buildings, monuments and statues but because of interpersonal relationships and group meetings, especially among Roman women inspired by the egalitarian Gospel of Mary Magdalene.
Structures may function as reinforcing propaganda, but they fail to persuade. To me, the concept and the effectiveness of “architectural propaganda” is limited.
LikeLike
@Paul Silas
Your source contains the same erroneous information that was posted by others up thread. All of which have been disputed by others or myself. Especially the Thomas Sowell book which basically tries to blame slavery death(many of which took place at the hands of whites) on Muslims. Try again.
LikeLike
@Afrofem
Very well said. I look at it in the manner of if a person is trying to persuade you to join their religion they are not doing it by bringing you pictures of their buildings. Mormon’s and Jehovah witnesses go door to door. Engage in polite conversation and read scriptures to you. But it is never the scripture alone, because southerners know their scriptures, it is the scripture coupled with a desired need or want being met.
LikeLike
@Sharina
A lot of the links that the drive by Islamophobes post on this thread lead to Rightwing Christian or other anti-Muslim sites with a serious axes to grind.
Thank you for disputing the hysterical anti-Muslim propaganda Paul Silas posted.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Paul Silas;
You seem to be well informed in regards to this topic. Might I ask you explicate on a conundrum I am currently;y suffering from? It is thus;
Are cats more violent than dogs? does this depend on the type of cat or dog? For example, if the cat is a tiger as opposed to a tabby, conversely, if the dog is a Pit Bull as oppose to a miniature poodle, which one would be more violent? How does one come to the right conclusion? I personally think cats are worse because they are sneaky! Dogs are just plain dumb. What say you Silas?
LikeLike
BTW, it is ‘Islamofauxbia’, as Islamophobia is illogical (we do not have an ‘irrational’ fear, but a sensible fear), and the word itself was coined by the theists for the expressed purpose of trying to censor free speech.
LikeLike
@goodbadand
Actually, the term Islamophopia is quite appropriate, as your comment illustrates.
LikeLike
Correction:
Islamophobia
LikeLike
Actually, the term Islamofauxpia is quite appropriate, as your comment illustrates.
See how that works yet?? I state facts and you babble on…
LikeLike
@Afrofem
“JackFrost’s comment does not specify what he or she consider’s “Islamic propaganda”.
Let’s rewind and consider what @JackFrost wrote in the context of mosque construction:
“Obama’s problem is totally the opposite by allowing mosques in areas that are a slap in the face while saying “You can’t have a peaceful Christmas nativity scene in public!” but it’s all right to display Islamic propaganda out in public.”
…and you responded stating that “houses of worship are not propaganda”.
Which clearly indicates that you believed @JackFrost was talking about mosques as propaganda.
“To me, the only propaganda worth discussing is effective propaganda.”
I appreciate your qualifier “to me”.
We can talk about your personal opinions, but that would be changing tact relative to @JackFrost’s common, uncontroversial use of the term.
You said:
“They don’t persuade or convert people who are not already sold on a particular belief system or course of action.”
Why are you insistent upon modifying the commonly accepted definition of “propaganda” which is — fundamentally– to use information to promote an agenda? A person may or may not be persuaded, but propaganda is still propaganda.
A person can promote an idea or agenda with personal testimony and argument.
A sign can promote an agenda by illustrating an idea or expressing a concept with language.
A book (eg “Mein Kampf”) can promote an agenda.
A musical performance can promote an agenda.
A painting, a design, a fresco, a stained glass, like a sign can do the same…
Architecture, as a medium, just like any other art form can communicate and promote ideas, information, and agendas as well.
“Propaganda” is largely synonymous with “advertising”, so saying that religious architecture isn’t “propaganda” because tourists can visit such sites without suddenly, hopelessly becoming converted, is much like saying an Oscar Mayer commercial isn’t “advertising” because a vegan can watch it and not suddenly feel compelled to go on an all-bologna diet.
You said:
“The level of persuasion needed to truly alter a belief and the actions that flow from that belief is most effectively conveyed through direct interpersonal contacts and media.”
If you want to discuss some sort of continuum of the persuasiveness of various forms of propaganda, that’s really another subject and misses the point that architecture can indeed be propaganda, among other modes of propaganda.
And again, when you say “media”, you dismiss that architecture IS a product of human culture and IS a form of media affording the expression of ideas, information, and agendas.
Some supporting examples follow…
“Syllabus: Architecture as Power, Politics, and Propaganda”
Penn State College of Arts and Architecture
Arch 400: Kristin Barry, Phd Art History, BS Architecture and Planning
https://www.academia.edu/10164924/Syllabus_Architecture_as_Power_Politics_and_Propaganda
“Throughout history and across the world, architecture has been used as a propagandistic tool to intentionally communicate ideas of power and politics, creating a social narrative that revolves around physical and theoretical construction and destruction. Architecture has a way of influencing viewers as well as being influenced by the political aspirations of those intent on using design to prove a point. Often, the same location is used during multiple historical
epochs for the express purpose of illustrating ideas of politics and power.”
Among other concepts expressed in detail in this course is “The construction and destruction of religious architecture”
“The Communicative Mode of Architecture”
http://www.mascontext.com/issues/14-communication-summer-12/the-communicative-mode-of-architecture/
“We can think of architecture as just another form of cultural practice. And like them, it too is a form of media. Its literal media may be the material it specifies: brick, stone, glass steel, concrete or whatever. But it becomes a medium in and of itself through the way it arranges these materials. The arrangement of these materials into form and space turn them, like the arrangement of words on a page, pixels on a screen, or paint onto canvas, into information. We can think of architecture, then, as a concentration of information assembled into built form.”
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21601895-talk-haghia-sophia-once-again-becoming-mosque-church-mosqueand-back
“The Haghia Sophia is seen as a symbol of conquest, of Islam’s superiority over Christianity,” says Tugba Tanyeri Erdemir, a Turkish historian.”
“Since 1935 it has been a museum, part of Ataturk’s drive to secularise Turkey and erase its Ottoman past. Islamists want to reverse that.”
LikeLike
@goodbadand
An opinion is not a fact. Just because you have convinced yourself that something is rational does not mean that it is. A man can have a fear of a spider and believe it is purely rational, but reality is his fear really is misplaced.
LikeLike
@Afrofem
You know how these islamophobes love to babble about being “sensible” when in reality they would not know sense if it strangled them at night.
LikeLike
@goodbadand
So far, you have stated no facts, only opinion.
If you are that frightened of other people’s religious beliefs, perhaps you should take the time to study them so that you are familiar with the facts.
I’ll start with one fact. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all basically the same faith adapted to different times and locales. While they have slightly different tenants, all trace their beginnings to Abraham, the Hebrew patriarch. They are all called Abrahamic faiths or Religions of the Book. They all worship the same one male god figure.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Sharina
“You know how these islamophobes love to babble about being “sensible” when in reality they would not know sense if it strangled them at night.”
So true! That is what profound ignorance of the world around you leads to.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s an interesting take on ‘propaganda’. I think the muezzin and church bells can be considered proselytizing/propaganda.
LikeLike
@v8driver
Please expand on how you think the muezzin and church bells can be considered proselytizing/propaganda.
LikeLike
maxthedog
“Why are you insistent upon modifying the commonly accepted definition of “propaganda” which is — fundamentally– to use information to promote an agenda?”—What is a common definition for an American may not be a common definition for someone outside of America. Don’t assume it is common because it is common to you.
Secondly architect can be propaganda, but that does not mean that it is. It is often times based on the assumed idea that it must be, which can be hell for the paranoid islamophobes who think muslims are out to get them through anything.
Even in the articles you presented, they seem to be based on what people think it means to them. Others could look at that same building and not even see that or think that. So does the propoganda only effect certain people? A building alone can not carry full propoganda, especially in situations where people have no idea what it stands for or the “story” behind it.
LikeLike
@Sharina
“What is a common definition for an American may not be a common definition for someone outside of America. Don’t assume it is common because it is common to you.”
This is an unreasonable position to take.
If a person is participating on an ostensibly American blog, responding to an apparently American individual, that person should stick with common, uncontroversial “American” definitions.
And just to be thoroughly pedantic (sorry), there are very popular, highly regarded dictionaries for just this sort of thing.
“Propaganda”
Webster’s:
“ideas or statements that are often false or exaggerated and that are spread in order to help a cause, a political leader, a government, etc.”
Oxford English Dictionary:
“Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view:”
“Secondly architect can be propaganda, but that does not mean that it is”
I never said otherwise.
The contention here is that buildings *cannot* be propaganda, where clearly they can be.
LikeLike
@maxthedog
“This is an unreasonable position to take.”—Actually it is not, but it is unreasonable to expect a person to bend to one’s idea of common. Your definition is your idea of what is common among Americans but may not be the case either across state lines in this very country let along overseas. For example, it is common for southerners to have a completely different word from northerners for a similar object. It would not be unreasonable for this to be the case for word meaning.
“uncontroversial “American” definitions.”—If we are to go by American definition then we would also have to accept that it has several definitions. One of which does not make hers uncontroversial.
“And just to be thoroughly pedantic (sorry), there are very popular, highly regarded dictionaries for just this sort of thing.”—I know, but I also know that those highly regarded dictionaries have several definitions for one word. Any of which can be applied.
“I never said otherwise.”—I also never said you did. It was simply a statement that agreed with half of what you were saying, but also bringing forth the idea that it also can not be. That the idea of it being propaganda was based purely on an assumption of any given individual and not a fact based reality that it is.
LikeLike
@ Sharina
“Even in the articles you presented, they seem to be based on what people think it means to them. Others could look at that same building and not even see that or think that.”
Exactly. When I see a mosque, the only thought remotely near propaganda that goes through my mind is “The U.S. has religious freedom.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Solitaire
Exactly! I have never looked at any church building, regardless of what religious affiliation and thought to myself “they must have an agenda.”
LikeLike
“Actually it is not, but it is unreasonable to expect a person to bend to one’s idea of common.”
Keep rationalizing… @Afrofem clearly knows the meaning of the term, as she felt it necessary to use qualifiers like “to me” and hedges like “effective” propaganda. You seem to have low expectations of her handle on the language… I don’t. She’s obviously not ignorant.
““uncontroversial “American” definitions.”—If we are to go by American definition then we would also have to accept that it has several definitions. One of which does not make hers uncontroversial.”
Her subsequent clarification about her personal use of the word doesn’t have anything to do with JackFrost’s use of the word, which is clearly supported by all of the evidence I presented.
Approximately 75% of the *native speakers* of English on the planet are American. Even the English Oxford Dictionary tends to prefer American definitions. If that statistic somehow fails your definition of “common”, then I really don’t know what to tell you.
Do you really think Afrofem doesn’t understand the meaning of the word as JackFrost used it, or do you think she’s busy moving the goalposts?
Given the dismal level of intellectual honesty you guys show in order to support your knee-jerk labelling of “Islamophobes”, I’m pretty certain I’ve already got my answer.
LikeLike
@ maxthedog
Ok, fine. Let’s accept that architectural propaganda does exist. The next question is, so what?
JackFrost’s statement was:
“Obama’s problem is totally the opposite by allowing mosques in areas that are a slap in the face while saying ‘You can’t have a peaceful Christmas nativity scene in public!’ but it’s all right to display Islamic propaganda out in public.”
This is comparing apples and oranges. Public land versus private land was already discussed above. But there’s also the faulty comparison of nativity scenes and mosques, entirely ignoring the fact that no one is banning churches from being built anywhere and everywhere. Churches on private land and mosques on private land are equivalents, while nativity displays on public land and mosques on private land are not.
If I want to build a temple to Cthulhu on my own private property, as long as I adhere to local zoning laws, who has the right to stop me? Who does it harm?
LikeLiked by 1 person
@maxthedog
Ummm No. I was not rationalizing Afrofem’s meaning of the term, but I was pointing out what is common for you is not common for everyone. When you decided what is common then you place markers or restrictions that will only allow something to be true if it fits your markers or restrictions. Secondly it was never implied or stated she does not know the definition, but knowing a definition of something does not make it common or regularly used to a person. When something is not common they will follow what is common to them. In this case her meaning, based on her understanding.
“Her subsequent clarification about her personal use of the word doesn’t have anything to do with JackFrost’s use of the word, which is clearly supported by all of the evidence I presented.” —What you presented doesn’t seem to support his definition of it either, which Solitaire clearly stated why.
“Approximately 75% of the *native speakers* of English on the planet are American. Even the English Oxford Dictionary tends to prefer American definitions. If that statistic somehow fails your definition of “common”, then I really don’t know what to tell you.”—The world is big and being an English speaker is not a qualifier for a terms meaning being common. The Oxford may prefer American meanings, but that assumes that the Oxford is the only choice of dictionary or the authority on word meaning. This also still assumes that there is only one meaning that the Oxford uses. Which it does not.
“Do you really think Afrofem doesn’t understand the meaning of the word as JackFrost used it, or do you think she’s busy moving the goalposts?”—Please quote where I said or implied she did not understand the meaning of the word? The argument was whether the meaning you presented was common to her or not. I will let you know when she moves the goalposts. As she has stated it can not be and why and have yet to change that.
“Given the dismal level of intellectual honesty you guys show in order to support your knee-jerk labelling of “Islamophobes”, I’m pretty certain I’ve already got my answer.”—Sure you have an assumed answer, but when you assume….
LikeLike
Hiya, Sharina!
*passes popcorn over*
LikeLiked by 1 person
@maxthedog
JackFrost’s use of the word “propaganda” was unclear. My assumption that he meant a place of worship was based on the context, e.g. “Christmas nativity scene”. We are not sure how he/she used the term or what effect that person expected to result from so-called “Islamic propaganda”.
We seem to be discussing two different aspects of propaganda; my focus is purely on results, yours on process and conveyance.
From my perspective, people in industrialized and post-industrialized societies are submerged in a restless ocean of propaganda. You have pointed out your understanding of architecture as one more creature in that ocean. It is a creature I hadn’t focused on before. I learn something every day.
My past studies of propaganda were deeply focused on the persuasive aspects of propaganda; the leviathans of print, film, television, books, music, personal testimony and interpersonal relationships. There was a great emphasis on results. Methods that did not persuade were allowed to sink to the bottom of the ocean.
It seems architecture can be a propaganda tool. It is not a tool of persuasion. It seems to be used as a reinforcing tool designed to buttress ideas and beliefs are already present in a given society.
Architecture as propaganda can be compared to flashy schools of fish that populate the ocean. While they have their place in the ecosystem, but they are far from the apex predators. After a while, you don’t notice them because you must pay attention to the sharks and barracudas. Like schools of fish, architecture as a propaganda tool relies on ubiquity as a strength. The lack of persuasive power is a weakness.
Finally, definitions are fluid. You used several slightly different definitions of propaganda:
1. The promotion of a view, belief or agenda in an effort to establish a consensus worldview in the population (in your inital comment).
2. Ideas or statements that are often false or exaggerated and that are spread in order to help a cause, a political leader, a government, etc. (Webster’s).
3. Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view (Oxford’s).
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Kiwi
” I would add that the best propaganda is so effective that we have people like you arguing that it is not even propaganda.”—Just because someone does not believe something can be propaganda does not mean they are magically taken over by it. Most people don’t have enough of an attachment to an object, building or otherwise, to be persuaded by it.
Propaganda relies heavily on belief or the idea that people are being pulled towards a certain idea. Most people these days don’t give a flying fudge about anything beyond social media and the newest of the new.
LikeLike
No one has answered my question; are cats more violent than dogs? Perhaps maxdog can elucidate since his moniker contains the word ‘dog’. What say you max?
LikeLike
@ Herneith
Cats will sit just out of reach of a dog on a tether, inciting it into furious barking, straining, and jumping, then calmly reach out a paw and smack the dog across the nose. I’m not sure if this proves cats are more violent than dogs, but they are fond of torture.
What happened to the comment by Paul Silas?? I never saw it.
LikeLike
@Kiwi
I am not questioning media as a form of propaganda. That is a given and the most blatant one in my opinion.
” Sometimes religious buildings are erected not to persuade anyone to convert but simply to show who’s boss.”–On this I agree, but in cases were buildings are put in place on clear land I would not see that as the case. This is where the “I believe” comes in. Prime example, people like jackfrost are fearful of a mosque being built and screaming propaganda, when it really is a matter of having a close place of worship. In this case you have a man who is fearful of Muslims and could see any progress they are allowed to make as propaganda.
This is what I took from Afrofem’s posts. I could be wrong, but that is what I got none the less.
LikeLike
@ maxthedog
Dude, where did you go? I’m right here! Ready and willing to accept your premise of architectural propaganda exactly as you defined it and to discuss the topic within those parameters. C’mon, let’s talk about whether religious architectural propaganda is protected under the Constitution of the United States.
LikeLike
Islam Has Massacred Over 669+ Million Non-Muslims Since 622AD
Islam Has Massacred Over 669+ Million Non-Muslims Since 622AD
Posted By: External Sourceon: March 08, 2016In: Islam, Jihad, Persecution17 Comments
Print Email
In fact, no ideology has been as genocidal as islam…
In the total numbers we have updated over 80 million Christians killed by Muslims in 500 years in the Balkan states, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia.
Then we have India. The official estimate number of Muslim slaughters of Hindus is 80 million. However, Muslim historian Firistha (b. 1570) wrote (in either Tarikh-i Firishta or the Gulshan-i Ibrahim) that Muslims slaughtered over 400 million Hindus up to the peak of Islamic rule of India, bringing the Hindu population down from 600 mil to 200 million at the time.
With these new additions the Muslim genocide of non-Muslims since the birth of Mohammed would be over 669 million murders.
Islam: The Religion of Genocide
Perspective: Think the Spanish inquisition was bad?
Please like Israel, Islam and End Times on Facebook
•More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition* combined.
The Spanish inquisition (Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición) from 1478 to 1834 was established due to muslim invasions. It was the war and battle to try and end Islamic infiltration, Arab fascism and conquest. It’s quite interesting how similar to muslims their methodology was. Was it habit by long association under muslim rule or a strategy?
Note: The Spanish Inquisition was an answer to the multi-religious nature of Spanish society following the reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Muslim Moors.
After invading in 711, large areas of the Iberian Peninsula were ruled by Muslims until 1250, when they were restricted to Granada, which fell in 1492. However, the Reconquista did not result in the total expulsion of Muslims from Spain, since they, along with the enslaved Jews, were tolerated by the ruling Christian elite. Large cities, especially Seville, Valladolid and Barcelona, had significant Jewish populations centered in Juderia. Muslims tried to take control throughout the entire country and expand into France to install an islamic state wherever they went.
To expel the vicious Islamic parasite from the nation the Tribunal killed anyone and everyone who were suspected of being contaminated by Islam, even those enslaved by the muslims.
The Inquisition not only hunted for Protestants and for false converts from Judaism among the conversos, but also searched for false or relapsed converts among the Moriscos [moors], forced converts from Islam. Many Moriscos were suspected of practising Islam in secret. They killed anyone suspected of being traitors or disguised moles. No one was spared.
So successful was the enterprise in 1609, in the space of months, Spain was emptied of its Moriscos. Expelled were the Moriscos of Aragon, Murcia, Catalonia, Castile, Mancha and Extremadura.
In other words, the Spanish inquisition saved the entire region from being taken over by Islamic rule. It was a brutal but quintessentially heroic act in history that saw the sacrifice of millions of people to exterminate Islam fully and completely from the land. It took them nearly 400 years. Imagine the sheer volume of muslims in the country for it to take almost four centuries to get rid of them.
Think the KKK has been bad since 1950?
•Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years
Think the KKK was bad from 1865-1965?
•Islamists killed more Buddhists in Thailand since 9/11 than the KKK killed in the 100 YEARS from 1865 to 9165.
Think the IRA’s terror campaign and the sectarian violence in Northern Ireland was bad?
•More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland
Think capital punishment in the USA is barbaric?
•The 19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.
It’s actually much worse than that: MORE PERSPECTIVE: Tears of Jihad
These figures are a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad.
Africa
Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East.
For every slave captured many others died.
Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.
[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888]
Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved.
So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.
120 million Africans
Christians
The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] .
A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad.
So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:
59 million Christians in Asia Minor
80 million Christians killed by Muslims during 500 years in the Balkan states, Hungary, Ukraine, Russia.
[This calculation does not include the Arab biological warfare of the middle ages where enslaved and infected Jews, riddled with plague, were dumped across Europe in regions that had no Jewish origin or settlers. They carried the disease from the brutal Arab slave trade and were part of the enslaved blacks, Christians and Jews who managed to survive by paying jizya. These diseased people were then spread into Europe during muslim efforts to conquer the Italian coast (Venice), Greece, Spain, etc. The plague ended up killing half of the entire population of Europe]
Hindus
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.]
The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”
80 million Hindus + adjusted 320 million = 400 million Hindus
[UPDATE: According to reports from the 1899 in a statement made by Indian religious leader Swami Vivekananda quoting Muslim historian Firistha, Muslims slaughtered over 400 million Hindus during an 800 year Muslim rule, bringing a population down from 600 mil to 200 million at the time. Firishta wrote the Tarikh-i Firishta and the Gulshan-i Ibrahim. If Muslims indeed slaughtered over 400 million people in India, the Muslim genocide around the world would exceed 890 million victims.
“When the Mohammedans first came we were said – I think on the authority of Ferishta, the oldest Mohammedan historian – to have been six hundred millions of Hindus. Now we are about two hundred millions.
— An interview of Swami Vivekananda, published in Prabuddha Bharat. April, 1899 and compiled under heading ‘On the Bounds of Hinduism’.]
400 million Hindus
Buddhists
Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die.
Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India.
The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.]
10 million Buddhists
Jews
Oddly enough there were not enough Jews killed in jihad to significantly affect the totals of the Great Annihilation. The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective, but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions.
After that, the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.
This gives a rough estimate of 669+ million killed by jihad.
Missing Data
Persians.
Muslims invaded and occupied the peace-loving Persians, the followers of Zorohaustra.
Christians in the Middle East.
Chinese during the mongul invasions.
Plus Muslims have slaughtered 11 million other Muslims since 1948 in addition to the 669million+ non-Muslims they have murdered over the centuries. How many Muslims they have murdered over 1,400 years is unknown.
590,000,000: that’s way more than stalin, hitler, mao, pol pot, idi amin (a sunni muslim), and the rest of the 20th century’s genocidal socialists! And it doesn’t stop there. The killing by muslims around the world continues to this day.
•For good reasons, the left loves to hate the spanish inquisition, the kkk, and there are even good arguments against capital punishment in the usa (though i support it!).
•The left has no problem calling the spanish inquisition and the kkk and capital punishment barbaric.
•So why don’t they criticize islam – which is demonstrably worse than all three combined!?!?
•In fact, no ideology has been as genocidal as islam…
•Nor has any ideology been so bloodthirsty for so long. For centuries…
•Nor has any ideology ever been as anti-liberty, anti-democracy – or as anti-woman.
It’s time it was stopped. For good.
Muslim decapitation of 1.5-2 million Christians in Armenia. This genocide was marketed by the Grand Mufti al-Hussaini to Hitler and the Nazi’s and adapted for the Jews – which ended up creating the holocaust. Prior to being associated with al-Husseini Hitler had not committed arrests or persecution of the Jewish people. The genocide was initiated after Hitler’s association and collaboration with muslims and their jihad army offered as Nazi collaborators.
Source
42.4k
13
You may also like:
If You Think Communism Is Bad For People, Check Out What It Did To The Environment
Muslim Terrorists Are Running Whole Prison Blocks Under Sharia Law
Do Radicalized Islamic Communities Exist in the US?
Stop Asking ‘Why Do They Hate Us?’
For the First Time: Over Six Million Jews in Israel, Aliyah Hits 5-Year High
ISIS Fighters Surround Syrian Airbase In Rapid Drive to Recapture Lost Territory
Christian Leader: ISIS is ‘Systematically Beheading Children’ in ‘Christian Genocide’
Immigration is Key to “Stealth Jihad” says Muslim Convert to Christianity
.
Tags: FeaturedGenocideIslamJihadMuslim ViolencePersecution
Islam Has Massacred Over 669+ Million Non-Muslims Since 622AD
Previous
Oxford Labour Students ‘Mock Jewish Victims In Paris’
LikeLike
In the name of God we kill each other. MY god is better than your god. My god has bigger guns than your god. My god can kill your god….
OH GOD WHAT HAVE WE GOTTEN TO ???
LikeLiked by 1 person
^^^Can’t even disagree with you there.
LikeLike
@Henry
Lot’s of Islamophobic propaganda in that rant.
Your sources are anti-Muslim, so naturally, your conclusions are rabidly anti-Muslim. It is easy to deduce what types of sites you frequent when you are not cruising by this site.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Afrofem
Nice catch because I did not see his post till now.
LikeLike
Islam has NEVER been a religion of peace. In a sad little attemp to push ideology, the write names very war. Yhe Left-wing Hypocrite leave out the fact Muhammad killed a village because he had a nightmare a woman in the tried to kill him. The Libtard leaves out 400+ years of Muslims killing Christians BEFORE the First Crusades started. Also left out Thomas Jefferson has to Muslim pirates.
FYI: The NAZIs WERE NOT Christian. Hitler remove pastor/ preist & Bible from churches & replaced them with bis bible. Plus the Ottoman Empire kill 2.4 million Christians from 1915-1918. This is the biggest load if Progress fascist lies.
LikeLike
@Daisy Dew
I don’t know where to begin with your nonsense so I will simply say, utilized reading comprehension skills very carefully.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Sharina cut Daisy some slack, it’s Friday after all. The bars open at 10.am. This is what happens when you let people drink and type.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@Sharina and Herneith
Are you sure it’s just al-kee-hol? Could be those pain pills kicking up too.
Daisy Dew is virtually slurring her words…poor thing.
LikeLiked by 1 person
http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm
You are not very good as a researcher. Most deaths in recent times were caused by by non believers, That is Stalin, Hitler, Mao tse tung.
In your research you missed the biggest cause of death during the middle ages.That was the takeover of the Ottoman Empire of the Christian lands. take a look at the above site. Your facts are worthless at best because they are faulty.
LikeLike
You are not a very good reader. Read the last paragraph:
The mistake here lies not in the numbers but in the words “Christian” and “Muslim”. Sometimes religion is a cause – or at least an excuse – like in the bombings by Christian extremist Eric Rudolph or the genocide in Sudan. But most often it is not. Calling, say, the 9/11 terrorists “Muslim” is like calling Hitler “Christian”: true yet misleading. It is Islamophobia, not a serious attempt to understand the world as it is.
LikeLike
What a bunch of bullshit. Christians responcable for Russian civil war? 1 million in the crusades! (Historians say 100,000). A gross over estate of Christian murders, hitler and the nazis were not even Christian (believers of christ). hitler wrote in his own words he planned to end all religions at hit finish as he did not believe in god, atheist or some wierd god worship if anything but no mention of christ at all by the nazis. And what about muslims? In one year 1997 they murdered 2.5 million indians. Someone got am F in history and an A in bullshit.
LikeLike
@Charles P Ringling
” In one year 1997 they murdered 2.5 million indians”
Can you cite a source or produce a link to back up that statement?
LikeLike
Charles P Ringling
“Someone got am F in history and an A in bullshit.”—-I’m guessing that someone is you.
LikeLike
This leaves out a ton of information such as sharia law sanctioned government killings, honor killings and the 1400 year bloodbath trail of islamism
LikeLike
Matthew 24:4-51New International Version (NIV)
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BG4823Xm3pA/
LikeLike
@Kenneth Landay
Just a little FYI on NIV scriptures.
http://www.trustingodamerica.com/NIV.htm
LikeLike
@Sharina, Kiwi, everybody…Hey Girlfriends whats happening, I miss you all…
As a Liberal and a Christian I find it funny that the right wing Christian coalition doesn’t see the similarities in their agenda and views and that of the Taliban or other Muslim Extremist groups, it is uncanny that they are like identical twins, each pointing the finger at the other and neither group following their religions doctrine as it should. In the United States it is cornerstone for those who are innocent not be lumped in with those who are guilty, however Adolph Trump and many right wing Christians demonize entire groups of people and religions for the actions of one or two people. Can you imagine if we lumped the 342 mass shooters, 75% who were white and identified as Catholic or Christian. I saw the best comment the other day on Facebook, a guys said, “Do you want to prevent 75% of the mass shootings in America? Stop all the white guys from coming into the country!” So tell me where is the outrage by Christian right about the 339 mass shootings that are done by white Christian men, where was the outrage over the Catholic priest child rape holocaust? Christian right only speak out about Muslims or people of color, you will never hear them rise up and speak for the Black men who are disproportionately killed by police, unarmed, unless someone holds up a sign with the word BLACK on it and then they go out and protest Mothers and Fathers who have lost their children and don’t say a word about the 12 year old gunned down with a toy gun or the 24 year old father who was on his way to pick up his son…Way to go you wonderful Christians! And when someone even makes the slightest generalization about Christianity the entire party jumps up and screams bloody persecution and oppression as if they had been persecuted by the white Aryan nation for 450 years like so many other cultures have, poor white Christians, someone made a slight little comment about the crusades or the Inquisition or David Karesh or Timothy McVey or the Prayer George Bush said on the bridge of an aircraft carrier right before the USA unleashed Hell on the Iraqi people for absolutely nothing but having lots of oil under their soil…another one of many examples of white privilege.
I’MMMMMMM Baaaaaaack!
LikeLike
For some of you who speak about history but are ignorant of it themselves….
Adolph Hitler history and quotes;
1. Adolph Hitler outlawed atheist and freethought groups in 1933.
2. “I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”
[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]
3. “I have followed [the Church] in giving our party program the
character of unalterable finality, like the Creed. The Church has
never allowed the Creed to be interfered with. It is fifteen hundred
years since it was formulated, but every suggestion for its
amendment, every logical criticism, or attack on it, has been
rejected. The Church has realized that anything and everything can be
built up on a document of that sort, no matter how contradictory or
irreconcilable with it. The faithful will swallow it whole, so long
as logical reasoning is never allowed to be brought to bear on it.”
[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]
4. “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed.”
[Adolf Hitler, speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, countering a
political opponent, Count Lerchenfeld, who opposed antisemitism on
his personal Christian feelings. Published in “My New Order”, quoted
in Freethought Today April 1990]
5. “I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]
6. “And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]
7. “Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]
8. “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so”
[Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
9. “Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be
wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in
a fanatical outlook.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, p. 171]
10. “Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy
enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an
overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted
to live at this time.”
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 5]
So you can see Hitler was clearly religious, he was clearly a Catholic Christian or whatever Label you want to put on the God of Abraham. Muslims also pray to the God of Abraham, as I do and as all Christians do, they just believe in worshiping differently…Mic drop!
LikeLike
LikeLike
@landaykh….You see the photo I posted, those are white Christian men and women standing around the burnt body of a young Black man who was “accused” of raping a white women, who later recanted her testimony. I can find you 40,000 other images similar to this one because thats how many Black, Native American, Chinese and other POC were lynched from 1865 to 1965 here in America. These same Christians are the same right wing ideology Christians who are voting for Trump or who willfully deny that the white Christian culture is MORE violent, hateful and Fascist than any other group in the world, they just have more to lose and more laws to obey and thats why they aren’t rounding up all the POC and sympathizers and putting them in internment camps…
LikeLike
William the Conquerer
What’s happening? Long time no read.
LikeLike
Did you forget about massacre in indonesia around 1965 ? How about ISIS ?
LikeLike
DJ
Did you forget to read the post?
LikeLike
I like when right wing fascist constantly put people down for bringing up the past and then when trying to defend an overwhelming tidal wave of present day facts, goes back thousands of years to point out who first controlled this land or which group slaughtered this group. However only one group is responsible for the most bloodshed over the last 300-400 years and that is our beloved white Christian European and United States of American people….no one has committed more blood shed than these groups. Colonialization, Imperialism, slavery, racism, lynchings, genocide, nuclear bombs, illegal invasions, regime change, pollution, Iran contra death squads, introduction of crack cocaine to inner cities by the CIA, unarmed men shot by police, 30,000 gun deaths a year, the list goes on and on and on. Go ahead and try to prove me wrong as the biggest Hypocritical nation to ever live is the one I call home….
LikeLike
@ DJ
Both those are under a million.
LikeLike
I used this exact same source in a debate I was having on the topic the other day.
Another fun statistic I found is that about 65% of the American prison population is protestant Christian (50%) or Catholic(14%), as compared to 10% with no religious preference/affiliation, and 9% Muslim. A ridiculously low percentage (0.10%) are Atheists. These numbers are from 2011, and there is a 2013 study of federal prison inmates, a much smaller number of people, that pretty much follows these numbers.
While per capita, there were more Muslims in prison than in the outside population, this can be attributed to race since many Muslims in prison are black, and we know that black men are incarcerated at a much higher rate than white or middle eastern men.
Christians commit more crimes than every other religion combined. So yeah, who’s violent?
LikeLike
@Jen106, yes there may be more Christians in prison than other religions but that does not say that the average Christian is more violent than the average person. There are more Christians in the United States. It makes sense that they would be a large section of the prison population.
According to statistics complied by fivethirtyeight.com, Protestant Christians make up 44.0% of the population of the United States but they only make up 28.7% of the prison population. Catholics are 25.1% of the US but 24.0% of prison population. Atheists are 0.7% of the US and 0.1% of the prison population. Muslims are 0.6% of the US and 8.4% of the prison population. Pagans are 0.1% of the US and 2.0% of the prison population.
Atheists are heavily underrepresented in prisons. Christians as a whole are slightly underrepresented in prisons (70% of the United States Population versus the 65% of prison population that you quoted). It can be said that Muslims are heavily overrepresented in prisons at a ratio of 14:1.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/
LikeLike
It’s too bad they weren’t more ‘religious’ when they were out committing their crimes.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Brian
She didn’t say they were more violent than that average person so much as more violent than Muslims based on the numbers. Besides. It does make for a.very compelling argument.
LikeLike
@Sharinalr: Jen106’s comment at the end implies that Christians are more violent.
And her argument is only compelling if it supports what you believe. The statistics only show what the religious breakdown is at the time that the poll was taken. It does not take into account that prisoners might find faith or lose their faith or change faiths while in prison. Every church I have been involved in has had a prison ministry, and every single one of them have helped prisoners find faith (or that is what they have said).
It also does not list what crimes people are in jail for. It does not prove that any belief system is more violent than any other belief system. All Jen106’s argument shows is that there are more Christians in prison, which is logical considering that there are more Christians in the United States than all the non-Christians doubled.
LikeLike
@Brian
Her statement implies that it is more violent than other religions, but not other people of the general pop as you stated above.
I personally believe they both are equally as violent, yet I still feel the argument is a compelling one. People who do bad go to jail. If more Christians are in jail then that can imply they are more likely to do bad or that we live in a country with the majority Christians that would make that true.
It is true that religious affiliation can change in church. From my experience with the prison system (not that I was in it) people are more likely to convert to Islam even when raised as Christians. Several factors play into this. Non-religious people will usually cling to whatever religion is presented.
Even though people can be in jail for many reasons, that does not mean that the crime they committed bars them from violent acts. So I would argue that the crime charged for does not really matter. A plea deal could have gotten them a lesser charge.
It could be argued that due to more Christians in the USA then it is more likely they would be in prison, but we then have to account the argument usually leveled at Muslims. IF they are a religion of violence then more of them should be in prison correct?
LikeLike
*It is true that religious affiliation can change in prison.
LikeLike
@ Brian
I do not know the name for this, so I will call it the majoritarian fallacy.
Christians, as the majority, can never be 14:1 or anywhere close to it. The majority, gasp, will always be close to the average because the average is mathematically weighted in their favour.
With your way of measuring things, only minorities can seem to be “violent”, never the majority – even when said majority commits most of the violence. Well done!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Stupidity st its best. Vietnam was not a “Christian war” its motivation was containment– a policy of stopping communism. Not theocratic in its reason, but based on political ideas..
LikeLike
When I wrote this post I completely, totally, underestimated how blindly Islamophobic so many people are. Of all the posts I have written this one seems to have gone over more heads than any other, even though I thought I made my point as plain as day in the last paragraph.
LikeLike
abagond
As Diana has displayed. It’s stupidity at it’s finest. What else can it be to miss something so obvious? I mean it is not like the last sentence was complicated or anything.
LikeLike
@Brian…
I have been wanting to use this data and facts for so long I couldn’t wait for some out of touch armchair reality observer to spout off about prison populations.
Here in the United States we have a justice system if done honestly and ethically, without corruption and discrimination should end up with a fair trial and statistics that are almost identical in terms of convictions. White, Black or Asian, the number as far as convictions should be almost identical with some disparity. However Black men are convicted 3 times more often than white men. Think about the process that leads to a conviction and think how in the world could Black men be “Convicted” more than white criminals or suspects. They can’t unless the system is broken, corrupt or what us reality based humans know, is RACIST!
I’ve had some real smart white guys say things like, “Thats because Black guys commit more crime thats why”. Wow really, your that stupid.
Follow the process, a crime is committed, police do an investigation, they determine the specifics of the suspect, they present the evidence to the DA and the DA takes it to the Grand Jury who decide to indict. Now we are in court and the trial comes to the end and Black men are found guilty 3 times more often than white guys.
This mean that white suspects, who police officers are for certain they committed a crime have placed them on trial for their life and the police get it wrong time and time again or what we already know, America is racist and Black men are pre-judged regardless of the evidence or facts.
So either law enforcement is railroading white men and arresting the wrong white guys or the mostly white justice system and law enforcement is finding that no matter what the evidence is or what the crime is when jurors see a Black man on trial they think he’s guilty 3 times more times than they think white men are guilty.
Bottom line this is monumental in regards to the right wing racist rhetoric about prison populations because this proves that the white prison population is 3 times under represented and the Black prison population is 3 times over represented….FACTS BROTHER!
LikeLike
Abagond….I don’t know how many white friends you have or live around but if you have very little white people you converse with then that is why you are not aware of the crazy amount of Islamophobia that exist.
As you know I am white and I live around many white people and deal with many white people in public. I also have many POC and Muslims who are my clients or who I am friends with, mostly on Facebook and in my condo complex but I can say for certain POC are FAR more tolerant and understanding of Islam as a religion and are aware of the difference between extremist who cherry picked the Quran just like Rightwing Conservatives cherry pick the Bible. In non white circles tolerance abounds and in white circles I would honestly say 40% or less tolerance abounds, the other 60% are racist or intolerant, scared out of their wits of anything that isn’t “Leave it to Beaver’esque”…
LikeLike
Catholic wars are not Christian so your post is full of errors
LikeLiked by 1 person
Evangelicals and Catholics have lively discussions on the interpretation of Scripture constantly. Evangelicals do that with each other all the time. That’s why there are so many different denominations. However, any organization that says “Catholics are not Christians,” is ignoring the history of Christianity. The name Christian predates all Protestant and Evangelical Churches by over a millennium. Many Evangelicals who think that Catholics are not Christian may be surprised to learn they accept the authority of several Catholic councils every time they pick up their Bible. The Bible didn’t fall out of the sky, spiral bound with an NIV sticker on it. It has a rich Catholic history.
Any time spent studying the Church Fathers will make it abundantly clear that early Christian beliefs were Catholic. Their complete unity over the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist is only one example.
Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Calvary…all part of the Christian religion
LikeLike
Do you honestly think that the people who read your article are so stupid as to believe fact that you literally made up.?? You are absolutely pathetic in your lies! Muslims have murdered between 300 and 500 million people. 1400 years of war and genocides are well documented.
LikeLike
@Melody harpole
I have found that a large amount of people who comment on this article can not read or simply don’t. Prime example is you.
” Muslims have murdered between 300 and 500 million people. 1400 years of war and genocides are well documented.”—Well if we look at the well-documented Christian murders they might actually be hitting a tie.
LikeLike
@Melody
Please give us these these “well documented” publications you speak of. Please do not use religious doctrine as it will be bias and thrown out as invalid as a conflict of interest.
In addition i would be more interested in “modern history” and not “ancient” history. Since 9/11 alone over 4 million Muslims have been killed by the war on terror, which is a failure of monumental proportions, causing terrorism to increase 4500%. Most of those Muslims killed were innocent women and children.
I would also like to point out the 40-72 million killed during WWll, a war entirely created by one Christian extremist from Germany, yes this is a Christian generated war based on one mans misguided hate of Jews for what they did to Jesus Christ. Crazy? Of course. True Christian agenda, of course not just as Muslim extremism is not true Islam, it is cherry picked horse shit from the Quran just like Republicans cherry pick crap from the old Testament and ignore the gospel to justify their agenda of hate and war. No different.
We also have no Muslim atrocities on the scale of millions for hundreds of years now, however, within the last 300 years American Christian white men have orchestrated the worse mass atrocities known to the modern world. The Transatlantic Slave trade accounted for 6 to 8 million African men and women but those numbers are frequently argued underestimated as for every African person which arrived many ship logs reporting 5 died or were thrown overboard due to illness, yes thrown into the Atlantic ocean alive and kicking.
Then we have the Native American holocaust taking anywhere from 14 to 24 million peoples. Many tribes were completely wiped out, genocide.
Each and every time a military officer or Chaplan says a Christian prayer before sending troops into battle it is a Christian lead force. Especially when those they are killing are from a different religion or culture without religion. We constantly here the right explain how we are or were a Christian nation, created by Christian men and their Christian women.
If we go back in time to 1000 years we still see that white European men attempting to conquer the world. England and France nearly did it; Europe, Africa, Australia, New Zealand, the Americas, Canada, etc, etc…To this day the U.S. has 800 military bases around the world…HAHAHA and we have the gall to call others out for wanting only to protect their country and people and they don’t have one single military installation outside their borders…It is laughable to compare atrocities on either side as both sides have hundreds of millions of killing under their belts, however only the West has multi millions of death under their belt within the last 150 years…
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Melody by the way…
I would also like to point out the 40-72 million killed during WWll, a war entirely created by one Christian extremist from Germany, yes this is a Christian generated war based on one mans misguided hate of Jews for what they did to Jesus Christ. Crazy? Of course. True Christian agenda, of course not just as Muslim extremism is not true Islam, it is cherry picked horse shit from the Quran just like Republicans cherry pick crap from the old Testament and ignore the gospel to justify their agenda of hate and war. No different.
We also have no Muslim atrocities on the scale of millions for hundreds of years now, however, within the last 300 years American Christian white men have orchestrated the worse mass atrocities known to the modern world. The Transatlantic Slave trade accounted for 6 to 8 million African men and women but those numbers are frequently argued underestimated as for every African person which arrived many ship logs reporting 5 died or were thrown overboard due to illness, yes thrown into the Atlantic ocean alive and kicking.
Then we have the Native American holocaust taking anywhere from 14 to 24 million peoples. Many tribes were completely wiped out, genocide.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Please go to this site.
https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
YOU left too many countries out of your statistics to make it logical. Hitler was an atheist and murders thousands of Priest and Nuns AFTER he got control of the Country.He was a great friend the Great Mufi.
LikeLike
Fabiole
I want someone to give me the words quoted from Adolph Hitler admitted to the world that he was an atheist. If you can present “evidence” better than his own admission, because the world can say he was this or he was that all day long but in the end if a man says, “I am a Christian” and we are a Christian political movement, your conjecture, theories and hearsay is absolute horse crap and conspiracy only….won’t hold up in a court of law and will not sway history or truth.
Now lets look at the evidence of Christianity; his own words, his own writings, the Iron Cross symbol on his war machines, the ALWAYS PRESENT Christian symbols during military parades and marches, his hatred of Jews and his ever mentioning of the persecution of Christ by Jews, etc, etc, etc…don’t give me somebodies opinion or theory based on occult activity or other conspiracies, anyone with half of their sanity knows that in a court of law these claims would be thrown out.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@fabi_ole
Besides the fact that your link does not work. Hitler was not an atheist.
LikeLike
This quote comes from the diary of one of Hitler’s top lieutenants, Joseph Goebbels. In any case though, whether or not Hitler himself was Christian is irrelevant. As Richard Dawkins has said, the men who actually carried out the atrocities during the Holocaust were either Catholic or Lutheran. And their communities had been taught for centuries to hate the Jews, partially because of the idea that Jews killed Christ.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Heres the site again. Your figures don’t mean shit to me any way. If you can’t believe in the facts you’ll never find a solution.
https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/
Seven year US Army veteran.
LikeLike
I find it interesting how commenters are quick to point out that HItler was not a true Christian or this or that war was not Christian – even the Crusades!!! – yet never doubt the Muslimness of violence carried out by Muslims.
Why is that?
LikeLiked by 3 people
@ Benjamin
Excellent point: regardless of Hitler’s personal beliefs, it was mainly Christians who carried out his crimes. The Holocaust did not come out of the blue. It had its roots in nearly a thousand years of Christian anti-Semitism.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@fabi_ole
Obviously those figures mean a lot to you as that was your original complaint and you provided a link that was suppose to counter it. Sadly your link has been posted by others and debunked. Why you might be thinking….because the figures in that link can be attributed to Christian murders as well. Especially that Thomas Sowell book who blames Christian murder of slaves on Muslims only because they sold them.
LikeLike
Hitler was a Catholic/Christian and this is not an opinion, these are facts brought about by his own words and people who knew him….
These comments are from one of many articles and summed up on this site…. http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/religion/christianity/hitler.shtml
Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.
As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)
Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.
As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy:
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.
Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt:
Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party
Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.
Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)
Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.
LikeLiked by 1 person
[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford
University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872]
LikeLike
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
LikeLike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_Nazi_Germany_during_World_War_II
My first reply may not been properly copied.Try this aginst
LikeLike
@ fabi_ole
Ideas about Jews that the Catholic Church pushed before the rise of Nazism:
1. There is a secret Jewish conspiracy.
2. The Jews seek to conquer the world.
3. Jews are an evil sect who seek to do Christians harm.
4. Jews are by nature immoral.
5. Jews care only for money and will do anything to get it.
6. Jews control the press.
7. Jews control the banks and are responsible for the economic ruination of untold numbers of Christian families.
8. Jews are responsible for communism.
9. Judaism commands its adherents to murder defenceless children and drink their blood.
10. Jews seek to destroy the Christian religion.
11. Jews are unpatriotic, ever ready to sell their country out to the enemy.
12. Jews must be segregated and their rights limited to protect the larger society.
13. Jews are born with polluted blood for having killed Christ.
Everyone of these had the support of the highest Church authorities, even popes.
Source: p 206-207 of “The Popes Against the Jews” (2001) by David I. Kertzer.
LikeLike
That said, Catholicism is not a hive mind. It produced both Adolf Hitler and Oskar Schindler. But Nazi ideas about Jews did not fall from the sky. Nearly all of it had Christian roots that go back hundreds of years.
LikeLike
You are confusing real Christians (Those who follow Jesus Christ and obey his Commandments) and those who profess Christianity and maybe draw near to God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him.
LikeLike
Pheonix
By your logic the majority of “Christians” are those who profess Christianity. Too many to be a confusion.
LikeLike
As an equal opportunity critic of all religions, I’m sorry but this article is a complete joke. WWII was a Christianity war? The Russian Civil war? WWI? Lmao do you even believe the bs you write? Those wars were 100% politically motivated. They had nothing to do with any religion.
I take it TRUTH must not be something you’re very interested in? Either you are a Muslim or an airhead. Well I suppose you could be both, but regardless above all else you are a deceiver.
LikeLike
@ ben jones
Either you cannot read or you are being wilfully obtuse to preserve your Islamophobia.
LikeLike
@ben jones
Take the time to actually read the complete article instead of skimming the numbers sections.
The conclusion might surprise you….
LikeLike
This is the most useless dribble ive ever read, and i feel the cancer growing in me because of it. You have taken almost every war in the last several hundred years and called them Christian wars. Without going into every single one, neither of the world wars had anything to do with Christianity. Thats 62 million off your math. Also, no one has been able to keep track of all the murders muslims commit. Christians don’t run around saying Aloha Snackbar (lol) and blow up a bunch of innocent people. Stop taking a murderous ideology, and riding it to the top of the victimhood hierarchy.
LikeLike
Okay Basic Commen Sense…..Lets stick to the basics, The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The Atlantic Slave Trade, The Native American Holocaust, Christopher Columbus murder of 2 million Natives to make room for the Catholic Church, George Bush’s Christian prayer on the Aircraft Carrier as he sent Tomahawk warheads flying on top of women and children who had already been dying at the rate of 2 million a year due to sanctions, lets not forget the 40,000 lynchings after the civil war committed by “CHRISTIAN WHITE FAMILIES”…
You can play willful ignorant commentator all day long but the only people who fall for that crap are the same people which allowed such atrocities to occur in the first place…
LikeLiked by 2 people
Basic Common Sense…
And lets move on regarding Adolph Hitler, it has been well established by his own admission and his entire life devoted to the Catholic Church that he was a CHRISTIAN.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Basic Common Sense
Perhaps you should have chosen a different screen name as basic common sense is not what you have. That warning and end sentence of the post were basic common sense. How come it was so easily missed?
LikeLike
Christians don’t run around saying Aloha Snackbar (lol) and blow up a bunch of innocent people. Stop taking a murderous ideology, and riding it to the top of the victimhood hierarchy.”—Nope, but they do going around declaringredients they did it because it is what God wants or some derivative of that.
LikeLike
@William the Conquerer
I love the points you made.
LikeLike
@Afrofem….thank you, but I owe it all to my God given “BASIC COMMON SENSE”…lol.
seriously thank you.
LikeLike
I really hate it when people say religion is the reason why the world is so fucked up. Hey, guess what. Now that the world economies is not under the influence of religion anymore, banks can charge unrealistically high interest rates. Banks can make bet on your savings accounts and make it wipe out in any given day just like Lehman. All of these ideology of capitalism and so on is as a result of the seperation of religion from the economy. So my point is. Religion is not the problem, its the people. People will used whatever sought of medium they can used to dominate the world. Islam and Christian have their fare share of people using the name of religion in order to manipulate and dominate people. And so does jews, and so does hindus, and some does buddhist, etc. What people dont realize is that even Atheist are using it as well. They are using the idea of Capitalism in order to make them becomes richer and you become poorer. Lol. People are so fucked up in the world they couldnt even think logically.
LikeLike
No, the mistake is in saying that all of America for instance is Christian, (after all, King O said that we were not a christian nation, remember?) America does not have a religion that is forced upon it’s people. We don’t say that you have to submit to christianity or die. We don’t go to war in the name of christianity as do the radical muslims and we do not kill to further the christian message. And whether you will admit it or not, the 911 terrorists we muslim. I understand that not all muslims want to kill in the name of their religion and not all christians want to serve in our military. You are totally off base with this story.
LikeLike
When President Bush says a prayer with all the men and the chaplain a Christian prayer on the deck of a battleship right before launching dozens of tomahawk missiles on top of innocent women and children that is a Christian War just as much as a Muslim that is radicalized that bombs people there is no difference. Unless you’re white American right-wing that is the only people in the entire world who see it that way.
LikeLike
@ Don
The whole point of the post was to show how ridiculous it is to call anything “Christian” or “Muslim” and think it some profound truth. No society, nation or leader is a robot of religion. Neither religion nor the world is that simple. You apparently see that in regard to the US but not the 9/11 terrorists. Think on that.
LikeLike
@ Don
You are right. Unlike ISIS, we do not give them the chance to convert. Instead we just kill Muslims outright in the name of Islamophobia.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is the most absurd and poory thought analysis of so called Christian and Muslim war statistics i have ever seen. First of all if you know anything about 95 percent of all of the conflicts listed under “christian” conflict and you do just a little research you will find that these conflicts had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity including the Korean, world wars etc. lol.. the french revolutionary had absolutely nothing to do with Christianity whatsoever. you shouldnt even be allowed to publish such utter nonsense and lies.
LikeLike
@…David Shelley
You are certainly entitled to your “OPINION”, that’s exactly what Abagond is all about my friend. Come back….ya hear?
LikeLike
@ David Shelley
So if those things are not “Christian” then neither is all violence carried out by Muslims “Muslim”. That is my point.
LikeLike
Wrong, 669 million have died by Islam since its creation in 622AD
LikeLike
@Leon reaper
Semantics, 600 million, 300 million, both religions have been used by evil men to gain power over the people. However the most recent mass atrocities are owned clearly by Christians. WWll, Jim Crow laws resulting in over 40,000 lynchings of innocent Black men and women and children, 8 million Blacks killed during the Atlantic Slave trade and likely many more, 14 million killed during the Native American holocaust/genocide, not to mention the responsibility the West, (meaning the U.S.), starting in 1950’s with the regime change regarding the Shaw of Iran, yes a Republican venture resulting in the Shah selling Irans precious land and resources to the U.S. and Britain. He was a puppet of the west and he did exactly what the west wanted, MONEY and OIL. This single event changed the Middle East forever, making the resources of these countries available to foreigners with money instead of the Iranian people. Poor Iranians watched their children die from starvation while large American companies came with limos and oil trucks, taking away their inheritance and leaving them hungry and dying…This type of governing led to killings, murder and the terrorism you see today. The west stole their children’s money and land and this is why they hate the westm, you would too…
LikeLike
The Greatest Murder Machine in History | PagadianDiocese.org | | | | | |
|
| | | | The Greatest Murder Machine in History | PagadianDiocese.org | |
|
|
LikeLike
You are so far off… you lump everything it to a broad stroke and then blame christians… most of these wars listed was not christian led… they were wars of conquests… you need to redo your numbers…
LikeLike
Jeff Brodsky
George Bush stands on the bridge of an aircraft carrier and says a CHRISTIAN prayer in front of the ships crew, with a Christian priest, moments afterwards Tomahawk missiles fly through the sky and landing in the streets and buildings of Baghdad, blowing women and children to pieces…A CHRISTIAN WAR!
Adolf Hitler Says, “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!…….- Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922.
As for the Atlantic slave trade I could post hundreds of examples but here is one…..”However, some clergy tried to push the idea that it was possible to be a ‘good slave and Christian’ and pointed to St Paul’s epistles, which called for slaves to ‘obey their masters’, and St Peter’s letters (1 Peter 2: 18-25), which appeared to suggest that it was wholly commendable for Christian slaves to suffer at the hands of cruel masters.”
In the 1800’s 85% of the population was Christian, thus when Christians hunt and kill women and children out of existence, it becomes a CHRISTIAN led slaughter…
Anything else you want to be schooled about?
LikeLike
Get stuffed we are not the beheading and killing gay people raping women or kids
LikeLike
johnjo
Catholics have been raping children for hundreds of years by the thousands. White Christians in the south beheaded, burned alive, raped, lynched, shot, cut off genitalia, chopped off limbs and much more 40,000 times not more than 50 yrs ago. Mathew Shepard was dragged behind a car, beaten, pissed on, hung with barbwire not but a decade ago…yes christians or Americans still do all of those things….
And by the way, Muslims are not doing those things either. Now if you are talking about Isis, they do not represent Muslims because they twist the Quran to fit their agenda, just like some Republicans and Christians do here in America.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@William the Conquerer
Well said!
LikeLike
My father is now 87 years old and has always said, ‘organised religion is the root of all wars’. I’ve never found anyone who could provide evidence to contradict his claim.
It may be an interesting question to consider….. I am an atheist. How many/ which specific wars have been driven by atheists?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Bev Denley
I have many friends on Facebook who are Atheist and I find them to be more ethical and show more morality than many of my religious friends. The Christian right’s agenda and ideology parallels groups such as ISIS, The Taliban and Al Qaeda, instead of the Gospel which they claim to worship. I agree with your statement and organized religion has proven to be nothing more than organized evil.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am probably stating the obvious but there have been many atrocities committed in the name of God from both sides whether it’s The Crusades or jihadist terrorist doing suicide bombings or some so called Christian extremist killing an abortion doctor or blowing up an abortion clinic to pedophile priest that the Catholic Church moves from the next parish only to victimize some other innocent youngster.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@ Bev Denley
By the faulty logic used in the original post, every communist atrocity can be blamed on atheism. For democides alone that comes to 109.7 million, more than Christian and Muslim democides put together, despite atheism’s late start:
1917-1987: Russia (USSR): 61.9m
1923-1949: China (Maoist): 3.5m
1944-1987: Yugoslavia (Tito): 1.1m
1945-1948: Poland: 1.6m
1945-1987: Vietnam: 1.7m
1948-1987: North Korea: 1.7m
1949-1987: China (PRC): 35.2m
1975-1979: Cambodia: 2.0m
1994-1998: North Korea: 1.0m
LikeLiked by 2 people
Oh and I forgot about those evil cult leaders like Jim Jones who lead hundreds to their deaths by suicide drinking poison koolaid in a jungle in Jamestown or a David Koresh in Waco because of some poor weak minded individuals who were duped into believing he was some type of messiah. Or a Warren Jeffs who has multiple sister wives it’s all pretty reprehensible.
LikeLiked by 1 person
My opinion: most people in power are not Christian or Muslim or even atheist, but Machiavellian. Power is their god. The bombing of Cambodia in 1969 was carried out by a Quaker – Richard Nixon.
LikeLiked by 4 people
@ Bev Denley
That statement has a lot of truth in it, but I have also heard the statement that all wars boil down to one ultimate cause: land.
Even religious wars are about land — they are fought over which adherents of which religion will control the land.
LikeLike
Hows about Boko harum of Nigiria and Muslims in Indonesia who murdered thousands of Chinese Indonesians because the Chinese were getting too wealthy.
LikeLike
Thanks a lot….for telling the truth…
Some people say that Muslims have killed 270 million people in 1400 years. I don’t know how far is it true. Could you write on it if you know about it.?
LikeLike
It is interesting that WWI, WWII< Korea Vietnam, Mexican revolution, the hundred years and pretty much the entire first list is attributed to Christians … When an entire nation is at war you just blame it on Christians? I am sure some of the populace of Europe, the US, Russia, Mexico etc etc was Muslim, or Buddhist, or atheist why are those wars considered only Christian? So Pick ONLY deaths caused in the name of Allah vs the name of Christ and you will get quite a different picture.
LikeLike
@Jannat Riya: Utter shit, it was already written about: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/39361_Fact-Checking_Pamela_Geller-_270_Million_Victims_of_Islam
LikeLiked by 1 person
XD forgot bunch of Islamic invasions and call white America LMFAO what a Joker this guy is
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is the most bs propaganda piece I’ve ever read. Lol absolutely bs!
LikeLike
Which part?
LikeLike
Recoilarms
There are no verses in the Holy Quran to trigger and promote genocide, but there are in the Bible.(Deuteronomy 20:10-17)
There are no verses in the Holy Quran to destroy polytheism with sword and kill all polytheists and even their livestock, regardless of whether they are at war or not, but in the Bible there are.(Deuteronomy 13:12-16)
There are no verses in the Holy Quran to kill people for sexual misconduct but there are in the Bible: If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10) And: If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire. (Leviticus 21:9) There are no verses in the Holy Quran ordering to attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. There is nothing in the Quran ordering, ‘do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys,’ but there is in the Bible: Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD. This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand from Judah. Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. … But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves and lambs—everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed. (1 Samuel 15:1-9)
America was 95% Christian when the Atlantic Slave trade, resulted in over 8 million deaths of African Americans, that doesn’t include the millions that died in transport or were thrown overboard due to sickness.
America was nearly 90% Christian while murdering 14 million native Americans who are the rightful owners or protectors of this land. And when the president of the United States stand on the bridge of an aircraft carrier and says a Christian prayer with most the crew of the ship moments before he orders Tomahawk missiles to rain down on innocent women and children of Iraq MAKES THE IRAQ WAR A CHRISTIAN WAR!
LikeLike
This article is patently false.
For one thing, islamic jihad is conquest by the sword.
So the killings in the name of islam ARE in the mane of the religion.
The article is trying to claim that ALL the killings by alleged Christians are in the name of the Christian faith.
That is PATENTLY FALSE
Neither WWI or WWII were religious wars.
And the demoncide in the Communist block countries were not done for religious reasons by Christians. They were done for political reasons by Atheists.
The same is true for most of the deaths in the Americas. The great majority of them were from disease and not homicide, genocide.
And very few of those were in the name of religion.
LikeLike
@ Attila Iskander
The only communist democide I had was 1.6 million for Poland. That was a mistake on my part. I removed it. But it hardly changes the overall thrust of the numbers.
LikeLike
@ Attila Iskander
Just as not every war by Christians is a holy war, so not every war by Muslims is a jihad.
The post is a parody of Islamophobia. It is supposed to sound idiotic to drive home the point made in the last paragraph.
LikeLike
@ Attila Iskander
If the numbers for the Conquest of the Americas counted disease they would be much higher.
LikeLike
re: Attila Iskander
In no way, shape or form is the article claiming, or attempting to claim that any of those killings were in the name of the Christian faith.
They are killings by persons identified as Christian, or mostly Christian.
Why the great discrepancy among different countries and regions in the Americas?
LikeLike
@Attila…
All semantics, who cares if they are about religion or if it is done by individuals, the article was to point out the blatant arrogance and hypocrisy of the Christian rightwing western culture. In the 1800’s 95% of the population was Christian and so that means that policy and culture is CHRISTIAN.
The KKK symbol is a burning cross, Hitlers always stated he was a Christian and used the Cross in his parades and show of military might. This is not an argument as to who uses religion as a catalyst for their violence but an article asking which people are more violent and clearly over the last 200 yrs Christians have committed ten times the violence of Muslims. Muslims as a people have not created world wars, have not sailed the oceans looking to conquer the world like so many Christian societies and people have, Imperialism, Colonialism, the violent and evil spreading of Christianity over the years have decimated this world and deprived us of so many wonderful cultures and societies. I don’t seem to recall world domination by Muslims anytime in the last few centuries.
LikeLike
@Attila….
Taking blankets infested with small pox and passing them out to Native Americans in internment camps is HOMICIDE.
LikeLiked by 1 person
How many Muslim military bases are strewn about the world in countries where Islam is not the dominant religion? There are 800 American military installations around the world, many in countries where Christianity is not the dominant religion. Who promotes war now?
LikeLiked by 1 person
We didn’t see any sources/references/links to data. Until then this is fake!
LikeLike
@ Brien Doyle
Huh? I gave my sources at the end of the post under “Sources”.
LikeLike
@Briendoyle….
“We didn’t see any sources/references/links to data.”
It’s called general history and most people learn it in Junior high…
LikeLiked by 1 person
ok so paris again today, then, is there an overarching ‘campaign’ to target civilians regardless of self destruction, i guess that’s agape to ‘their cause’ like? it seems unlikely to reconcile ie jews too etc, it’s a real mess, is it just like 9/11 was said to be? that’s seems to be what trump wants you to believe.
eh this whole thing with arabs on the other thread sounds like north africa sub-sahara all over again, instant headache!!!
LikeLike
the converse must be considered as well, to be fair and so forth, ie is it a campaign by the us military and it’s lesser partners to inflict maximum damage including civilians, using missiles on civilian populations should be banned!
LikeLike
[…] Source: Are Christians more violent than Muslims? […]
LikeLike
I am reading this article for the 1st time, but I notice that, in examples of interreligious wars involving Christians, Abagond’s methods of accounting regularly fail to distinguish casualties on the Christian side, versus those of their opponents. This error renders many of his figures, like his 7 million from the Reconquista, rather misleading and useless.
Elsewhere, his accounting has omitted many of the conflicts fought by Muslim forces, including the Islamic conquests of Persia, Mesopotamia, Syria-Palestine, Egypt, and North Africa, besides other outbreaks of serial warfare between the Byzantine Empire and various Islamic forces. Contemporary accounts of many of these conflicts have, however, surived, and many such descriptions recount episodes of Muslims abusing defeated opponents, not excepting some mass atrocities, by the Muslim side. Even Muslim chroniclers from those times noted that their side participated in these forms of violence.
With regard to conflicts during the early decades of Islam, and the period of the Caliphs, it is not clear to me whether these omissions occurred because of human error, or because Abagond’s loyalty to Islamic teachings might forbid him from conceding this aspect of the careers of Islam’s Prophet, the early Imams, and the Caliphs. Whatever the explanation might be, these omissions nullify much of Abagond’s attempt to compare Christian-vs-Muslim killings in war.
LikeLike
@ jjperegrine
Even if you look at history since 1900, where the record is more complete and has less of a Eurocentric bias, Christian still out-slaughter Muslims, and not just by a little bit either – by more than can be accounted for by error.
If you compare, say, the Arab conquest of North Africa to the Anglo conquest of North America, again it was not even close – because the Anglos were genocidal, while Arabs, in the main, were not. There are way more Berbers, for example, than Native Americans.
I am not Muslim, so I have no loyalty to their teachings.
LikeLike
Your account of the experience of Native Americans during European colonization covers some relevant issues. I do concede that the Spanish colonization of the Greater Antilles is rightly accounted as one of the most atrocious episodes of genocide in history.
The fairest thing I can say on behalf of the Portuguese and Spanish is that even brief episodes of warfare tends to erode all peoples’ toleration for foreign cultures, and the over 7 centuries of Christian-vs-Muslim warfare in Spain/Portugal would, doubtless, have a magnified this effect on peoples’ attitudes.
Nevertheless, while the cruelty and brutality of the Spaniards, and of other European colonizers, should not be trivialized, even in the N. Caribbean, Native victims of Old World diseases far outnumbered those who perished as victims of warfare and atrocities.
Previously uncontacted tribes typically would lose 89-92% of their population to disease after coming into contact with Europeans, however, hardly any Europeans of that period understood indigenous peoples’ extreme vulnerability to this danger.
LikeLike
I go as far as conceding that the religious wars and persecutions of the 16th-17th centuries in Europe did inflict high levels of casualties.
Elsewhere, by the time of the Holy League victory at Zenta (now located in Serbia), 1697, Muslim powers were in decline in much of the frontier areas of the Islamic Ummah. The lower scale of casualties in subsequent warfare by Muslim forces merely reflects the diminishing role of Islamic states in world conflicts in the decades and centuries that followed. There is, otherwise, no cause to doubt that, if Muslims had kept pace with modern advances in weapons, transportation, and industry, they would have produced war casualties on a scale comparable to those of western/Christian states during the same timeframe.
LikeLike
jjperegrine
“Native victims of Old World diseases far outnumbered those who perished as victims of warfare and atrocities.
Previously uncontacted tribes typically would lose 89-92% of their population to disease after coming into contact with Europeans, however, hardly any Europeans of that period understood indigenous peoples’ extreme vulnerability to this danger.”
After the first few epidemics, I think the Europeans were well aware of the Indigenous people’s “extreme vulnerability” to European diseases. That awareness, plus the extreme greed and cruelty of Europeans toward other humans they described as gentle and welcoming compounds the crimes of European Christians.
More information about European motivation and awareness can be found in these posts:
LikeLiked by 1 person
Among Muslim rulers, the Umayyads were relatively more tolerant than others, with emphasis on “relatively,” however, they, as well as the Mameluks, Ammohads, Almoravids, and Ottomans, were all noted for their intolerance. All of them practiced plundering, rapine, and imperialist wars.
If any one of them had reached the New World before Europeans did, there are sufficient reasons to conclude that:
[1] they would have carried the same Old World diseases to indigeonous populations that Europeans did;
and, [2] their treatment of indigenous peoples would have been at least as brutal, cruel, and atrocious as the Europeans was.
LikeLike
@Afrofem I have long been familiar with De Las Casas. Like all people, he had his faults, but over the past 18 years, I have admired his conscientious message on the dignity and rights of indigenous people.
LikeLike
@ jjperegrine
“…there are sufficient reasons to conclude that:
[1] [Muslims] would have carried the same Old World diseases to indigeonous populations that Europeans did;
and, [2] their treatment of indigenous peoples would have been at least as brutal, cruel, and atrocious as the Europeans was.”
What “sufficient reasons” lead you to believe Muslims would have been as inhumane to the people of the Americas as the Europeans were during their invasion of the Western hemisphere (or globally, for that matter)?
When Arab Muslim traders first encountered the people of the islands of Indonesia, they did not engage in savage behavior toward those islanders like later European invaders. They were not pargons of virtue, but they also were not blood thirsty killers, either.
Furthermore, any speculation about “what the Muslims would have done” does not excuse Europeans or scrub the blood from their hands. It seems like just another deflection; a variation of the “Arabs had slaves, too” argument.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It seems like just another deflection; a variation of the “Arabs had slaves, too” argument.
It is. Arguments couched in verbosity to hide the childishness.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Poor representation of data.
LikeLike
And?
LikeLike
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn-bp-nyc-enhancing-security-punish-muslim-day-article-1.3910784
LikeLike
@ v8driver
Thanks for the link. What a vile campaign! Some people are so sick.
LikeLike
Yeah that’s ridiculous.
LikeLike
I also grew up Catholic. I was taught Jesus went to hell. Good people dont go to hell. Say what you will but Christianity is one of the worst religions in the world and im glad i deconverted from it. Islam is a close second however.
LikeLike
First!
Never use the word ‘Islamophobe’!
It is a made-up word by Islamophiles to excuse the violence and attack attitudes of Muslims.
Immediately I discount all ‘facts’ by those who bring up that word!
Second!
We don’t hear about the multitude of murders NOT recorded in the Muslim countries as they are still in 3rd world control regimes….
LikeLike