Melanin is the substance that gives skin, eyes and hair their colour. It is found in most living things. It makes squid ink and crow feathers black. Those without melanin are albinos.
Even white people have melanin in their skin – just less of it. Some whites have so little melanin you can clearly see blue veins through their skin. A low-level of melanin causes eyes to look grey, green, blue or even violet.
Melanin protects human skin from sun damage. It blocks the sun’s ultraviolet rays, preventing sunburn and skin cancer. Melanin also keeps the sun from breaking down vitamin B9, thereby preventing birth defects. Tanning is where the skin produces more melanin to protect itself.
Melanin comes in four main colours: black, brown, yellow and red. Think hair colours. When hair turns from black to grey to white it is losing its black melanin. The colours can be mixed in different amounts. The pink undertone of white skin comes from blood, not melanin. Dark skin, hair and eyes have more melanin than light ones.
Black skin goes back at least 1.2 million years. As early man lost his body hair, his skin turned brown to protect it from the African sun. This is genetically the same skin people still have in Africa, South Asia and Melanesia.
Light skin appeared in north Eurasia about 55,000 years ago. When people moved into Europe and East Asia their skin became lighter still but in genetically different ways. Europeans did not reach their present whiteness till about 6,000 to 12,000 years ago through a mutation to the SLC24A5 gene. That is when they started getting blue eyes too (from a separate mutation).
Black skin is overkill if you live more than 36 degrees from the equator: Europe, northern Asia, Canada, the American North, New Zealand, Tasmania, Argentina, Chile, etc. There the sun is so weak that black skin cannot produce enough vitamin D except in summer. Before the 1900s, back when diets were poor, that meant a greater chance of ricketts, which meant badly formed bones, which meant more women dying in childbirth. Light skin did not have this drawback.
Melanin Theory: Some say whites are cold-hearted, warlike, unspiritual and so on because they suffer from melanin deficiency. More melanin makes you more fully human. This is not supported by the science:
There is melanin in the brain. It even seems to affect how easily people get hooked on drugs and alcohol. But the amount of melanin in your skin does not necessarily match the amount in your brain.
On the other hand, darker skinned people are less likely to get Parkinson’s disease and, when they smoke, smoke more heavily. Melanin might affect those things.
Dr Frances Cress Welsing, a psychiatrist, says whites fear being wiped out genetically by those with more melanin. That is why they feel the need to control people of colour and keep them down.
– Abagond, 2013.
See also:
- colourism
- human genes: the last 6 million years
- human migrations
- Negritos
- Neanderthals – had pale skin
- Diop: Early History of Humanity: Evolution of the Black World
- “African Queen”: Numéro does blackface – again – discussion of melanin in the comment thread
- Jessica White
- Frances Cress Welsing: The Isis Papers
My mother has bemoaned the imminent extinction of blonde, blue-eyed people.
I’m torn. Certainly I am not against “race-mixing” (since race is subjective anyway), but I do love to see the variety of the “human rainbow” and would be saddened if the lighter end of it was missing. Although personally, I do find pale skin to be the least attractive part of the spectrum. Medium, then dark, then light, is how I would probably rank them. My favorite skin color is that of Harry Belafonte – a beautiful golden brown. He also has excellent facial structure. I think he wins my personal “Hottest Old Guy Ever” Award (86 years old!) I’ve also loved the Banana Boat Song since I was little and had it on a Raffi tape. I never knew who did it originally until recently.
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Miss. Jessica White is gorgeous! Her skin is luminous. I’m glad I have that extra bit of melanin in my skin. It helps keep me looking younger than I am. When I was growing up, I heard this saying from some of my fellow Westernized SE Asians, “Brown won’t let you down.” And it certainly hasn’t.
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I find it most interesting about the Americas and Australia.
Northern Australia (eg, Torres Strait) is well within the tropics @10deg latitude. Southern Tasmania is nearly 44 deg latitude. The continent has been populated for at least 60,000 years, enough time for some differentiation to occur. However, there is only slight difference in the skin pigmentation between these two areas. In fact, Tasmanians are generally darker than many Indonesians.
The south American continent extends down to 56 deg south latitude. Yet the native Yamana are not really any lighter than the people in the Amazon. Of course we might be able to rationalize — assuming the Bering Strait / Asia origin hypothesis, the original American settlers were light skin. Slowly buy surely, as they migrated to Mexico and Central America, they had more and more descendants with darker skin. The settlement in Tierra del Fuego was so recent that the inhabitants did not have enough time to adjust their melanin level back.
But if this is the rationale, why did that occur in the Americas and not so much in Australia, when Australia was settled so much earlier.
Finally, there are occasionally blond aborigines in Australia. Is the gene responsible for that different from the one that developed in North Eurasia?
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I recall Dr. Francis Cress Welsing appeared on the now defunct tv show Donahue, and the predominantly white audience was visibly upset regarding her statement.
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I like this post. Jessica White is gorgeous however as a young, dark skin Black woman, I had self esteem issues with my skin since I wanted to look White and light skin. Now I like my skin color because dark skin women age the best and we are beautiful.
BTW Jessica White is my skin complexion and I am proud to say it!
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@ Leigh
I agree. When I opened the post I was stunned. She is beautiful.
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Adeen, you have every RIGHT to be proud! I have read a lot of your posts and you’ve always come across as an intelligent, well-mannered, articulate, capable, ambitious, dignified young woman. You’re an asset on this blog. 🙂
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Interesting. The picture of the children representing the various skin tones doesn’t show all the spectrum. I’ve definitely seen people with a wider mixture especially for lighter skin tones and the darker brown. I guess they had a small casting call of kids for their photo shoot.
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Abagond,
Dr Frances Cress Welsing, a psychiatrist, says whites fear being wiped out genetically by those with more melanin. That is why they feel the need to control people of colour and keep them down.
^The main reason why President Obama gets so much hate from many whites, and why racist internet trolls are born, to name a couple of examples…
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“I recall Dr. Francis Cress Welsing appeared on the now defunct tv show Donahue, and the predominantly white audience was visibly upset regarding her statement.”
leigh204, i watched this episode of the Donahue show on YouTube about 2 weeks ago.
White people were so defensive, what Dr. Francis Cress said, went right over their heads and they took it the wrong way, like most white people do on this blog.
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@ sondis:
Not only were the white audience so defensive, but dismissive as well. Dr. Welsing made a lot of valid points and the white people could not handle it and reacted the way they did.
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It’s true, race is most certainly a social construct! This is something that I had discussed with a fellow science lover, earlier this week.I remember that interview with Dr.Welsing when it aired, and the reactions from the audience were (almost comical), if it wasn’t such a sad fact that they were indeed missing the point. I personally believe that the “wipe-out/extinction” defense is just a simple excuse to not be able to claim “superiority” if one mixed, brown, POC etc. People like that are not so much afraid of being wiped out-but instead I think they are just unwilling to let go of their white skin/privilege.
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Are you trying to piss of the crazies Abagond? You fool!! You don’t know what you’ve started. I can lend you my support, but this is basically a suicide mission. In Nomine Patris, God be with us.
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Reblogged this on Kushite Kingdom and commented:
Great post! Never underestimate the power of melanin!
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[…] Melanin is the substance that gives skin, eyes and hair their colour. It is found in most living things. It makes squid ink and crow feathers black. Those without melanin are albinos. Even white pe… […]
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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In West Africa there are dark skinned Black people (not biracial) with green eyes. Green eyes among Blacks are not this rare as people usually believe. Blue-eyed Blacks are rarer, but they exist too. How does science account for that?
I also remember a beggar family I saw when I was a kid. The mother and all her kids had one blue eye and one brown eye.
Regarding albinos. I’ve always been under the impression they are more common among Blacks than among Whites. For instance in my country (Benin), in every place where I have lived I have always had albinos or their descendants (recognizable to their reddish skintone and red hair) in my neighborhood. On the other hand, when I was living in France I don’t think I have spotted a single one in years.
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Defunct? Or was it “Displaced” by a new and more popular talk show host with considerably more melanin, using the same basic format?
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The gene you talk about that is present in europeans is due to a selection process. The reason being is that darker skin at higher latitudes, where the sun is not as strong, doesn’t absorb sun, therefore leading to a decrease in the production of vitamin D. This is especially true based on diet. Lack of Vitamin D leads to a variety of health problems, including psychological ones. Make sure you are taking your vitamin D. The amount of time everyone spends inside, might be leading to all this craziness of late.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-breakthrough-depression-solution/201111/psychological-consequences-vitamin-d-deficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLC24A5
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I should revise my comment. The gene is also present in a Africans. Over time, the same process that selected for lighter skin, will occur in Africans–assuming they stay in northern latitudes or in doors.
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@ Dman
there are also some dietary sources of vitamin D, particularly if you are eating certain fish, egg yolks or beef liver.
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/features/the-truth-about-vitamin-d-vitamin-d-food-sources
So if Africans were including these items in their diet, while living more than 36 degrees from the equator may not have been eliminated by the selection process.
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“Dr Frances Cress Welsing, a psychiatrist, says whites fear being wiped out genetically by those with more melanin. That is why they feel the need to control people of colour and keep them down.”
Oh yes, “Nordics” think all of their genome is recessive, so their obsession with “purity”. There is no objective reason to assume this.
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Aba
Since your post will attract Evil, deviant, recessive “beings”, I’ll speak my peace a leave quickly. I’ve said from day one that the underlying reason for white hatred is their ENVY of us.
Whites, and everyone else to some degree, hate blacks because they are NOT black.
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@Peanut
Someone with a solid grasp of genetics and hereditary? If only more people understood such things…
@oogenhand
Yep, that’s certainly an overabundant form of stupidity which contributes to racism. See, a lot of these idiots believe “recessive” indicates that certain genes are utterly annihilated through magic or something and just generally don’t have much grasp on reality.
And anyhow, certain traits more common among “whites” are actually visibly dominant over other traits more common to “other races”.
And it’s quite often that certain traits aren’t as dominate as people assume. For instance we have the matter of skin color, a trait which typically isn’t very dominant. The color is typically a visible mix of whatever genes they inherited.
So in short, I see this all as a bunch of unhealthy paranoia that should be more actively discouraged as it results in very negative behaviors and beliefs.
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In chernobol the bacterica eating the radiation eat it through the melanin.
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I’ve already commented extensively all over this blog on this subject before.
What abagond has provided here is really no more than a general overview. Slightly informative not really up to date. But at least its a start to seriously understand and learn more about the vital role Melanin plays in ALL our lives.
One thing for sure there is a hell of a lot of ignorance surrounding the vital role of Melanin for the simple FACT that conventional science refuses to discuss or downplays its proper function. Just like it does with the function and role of our Pineal (Gland). Which according to science’s own definition conforms to the role of a major Organ. Just like the Heart of Kidney!
But I digress…Here is a recent comment I made…
Some of my other more informative comments can be found here:
and here:
I actually believe if we knew more about and understood the true nature of Melanin and the role it plays in ALL of our lives. We might actually begin to appreciate the beauty and diversity of ALL people. This is what most people are able to do with the numerous, diverse and different species of animals, plants and flowers on the planet.
But that really wouldn’t do now would it? What would happen to all those delightful discussions we all enjoy on the nature of Black dysfunctionallity and the evilness of whiteness and white supremacy (racism?
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Thanks for the post Abagond.
All I can say is “black skin” looks brown to me… And is represented as dark brown too. In Niger, Burkina Faso, Senegal and Cameroon, I have never seen anyone “black”, unless they were very very sick and there skin reflected the illness.
And “white” is light beige. I have never seen anyone “white” as paper anywhere in Europe or the US.
The albino people I have met in Cameroon were “pink”, probably due to blood and other fluids under the skin.
When we say “black” or “white” we refer broadly to “appearance”, generalize and link skin color to “race”. (because it’s “easy”, simplistic ? or because we were taught to do so ?)
And I am planning to read Dr Cress-Welsing’s books after listening to and watching her and not being okay with her theory from a strictly analytical point of view. It relies on the postulate of “race” being a biological fact and that is socio-historically problematic. I’ll say more about it when I have gone into detailed readings of her. Right now I am deep into Blumenbach in “The Idea of Race” edited by Bernasconi and Lott.
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I am classified as “white” and do not feel “defensive” or “dismissive” of Dr Cress-Welsing’s theory. I listen to her and try to analyze what she is saying. To me (based on what I know about the invention of the concept of “race”, which I can say is quite a lot compared to a lot of Europeans and Americans, simply because I am interested in it because I think it is extremely important in our societies these days as far as consequences for those who suffer from the application of the concept), her thinking functions in a manner that keeps her trapped in the racial frame of reference.
I don’t “fear being wiped out”. I don’t “envy” anyone for their “race” (because I don’t even think it exists), for their social/ cultural/ ethnic background, or their skin color.
I would if I were a racist, believed that I am “really” white and therefore my descendance *might* become extinct for what ever reason. But to believe that my descendance is “white”, I have to believe I am “white”. Which I don’t.
My problem with Dr CW’s theory is that she puts FIRST the belief in “race”.
All racists will feel offended by her “vision” of things, of course they would !
Socially speaking, when considering “race”, and therefore “whiteness” as a fact of this society, it *may* work, but in biological reality it has no basis. And societies change. Racism was invented, it has and will do damage, but will be “wiped out” some day. Not “white people”.
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@Kwamla,
I respect that first comment you made to Mbeti–however, be careful as you will be called a “black supremacist” or worse–“afrocentrist”…
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@Kwamla
Thanks for the renewed links.
I don’t have time now but I’ll re-read all of it and comment later (another day)
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that woman in that pic is goregeous she looks like a darker skinned version of tyra banks. That albino model kinda looks like the white version of samuel jackson’s character on django
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123050/Look-The-black-white-twins-turn-seven.html
just sayin…
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@Abagond
“Light skin appeared in north Eurasia about 55,000 years ago. When people moved into Europe and East Asia their skin became lighter…Europeans did not reach their present whiteness till about 6,000 to 12,000 years ago through a mutation to the SLC24A5 gene. That is when they started getting blue eyes too …”
Albinism is responsible for blue eyes as well as light skin, not migration to Europe and Asia, climate or anything elese. And yes there are many Africans with varying forms of albinism who have blue eyes. (NIH defines albinsim as “a DEFECT of melanin production that results in LITTLE OR no color (pigment) in the skin, hair, and eyes.” )
If Africans can produce albinos and other mutants with varying forms of albinism, then how can you suggest that “whiteness” and “blue eyes” originate in Europe and Asia?
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So what do melanin levels do to the brain?
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Most of what Dr Frances Cress Welsing says is unscientific bullshite. As a shrink she can say anything she want without it being subjected to the science method. White racists have an alternate theory that poses as they lost melanin in cold climates, they developed a thicker frontal cortex, also unscientific crap. Whites have been to wiping out populations of color is a historical fact.
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Based on Kwamla’s comments but mostly on my own reflections, here is how I analyze this, through observation and logic… Which is kinda what you are asked for in the scientific protocole, which I *think* Ancient Egyptians and all humans used without calling it “science” and making everyone else believe they were/are the only ones doing it.
I am with eshowoman on her take.
Here is mine more precisely, following the same path (that is reflecting on what she calls the “alternate theory” of white racists.
How come me and other people like me (classified as white because our skin is light-beige – first logic problem) do not follow the same path as the racists (white supremacists) even though we should (according to the theory) ? Our brain is supposed to be impacted, so how is it ?
That is the problem with this type of thinking; once you lock things in biology, there is no way out. That is what the racist theoreticians did: they naturalized politics, so that when someone exposed the socio-political aspect of “race”, he/she could be dismissed as “not understanding” that “race was a unescapable biological fact”.
Humans’ intellectual capacities always counterbalance any biological defects they may have. They use their environment to do so. If we didn’t we would ALL have been extinct for a while.
If that theory is “true”, then it should not be applicable in a racial frame either, because in itself it contains the negation of “race”: all humans, individually, have more or less melanin than their neighbor, their brother, their sister, their father, their mother.
So inside the groups called “black”, there would be no way to “unify” around melanin. The same inside the groups called “white”, “red” or “yellow”.
Anyone trying to find homogeneity will find him/herself re-creating the concept of “race” in another context. A context which would lead to separating so-called “blacks” in the current racial context into “more melanin” and “less-melanin” “blacks”, and eventually “more melanin whites” would end up being in the same group as “less melanin blacks”.
It is the type of process the early racists went through.
Like Kant who considered that skin color/race was the result of a certain amount of “iron” retained or liberated by the individuals of different human groups, depending on the climate, etc…
Following that idea, with Blumenbach and others, they didn’t necessarily hierarchize but they tried to classify.
Otherwise why would you want to find out about the quantity and quality of a substance ? The same process before “race” paved the way for it concerning women: they were supposed to have more “cold fluids” and be “moist” than men who were “dry” and “hot”… *Therefore* they were *inferior*. This is the very origin of the whole thing. If you read French I can advise you on a book on that.
Basing human diversity on the quantity and quality of melanin individual bodies contain/produce AND applying MENTAL characteristics to the indivuals and consequently the groups they belong to is like a “copy-paste” process of the early attempt at classifying humans by European naturalists, anthropologists and the like.
The fact that those who put forth the melanin theory are at the same time in a (understandable considering the current social context) process of trying to uplift, better, improve their vision/position of themselves (African-Americans in particular, but it is developing in other places where more dark-skinned people have migrated into a white supremacist context) have linked it to a profoundly socially-marked process of hierarchization.
Don’t tell me you haven’t read any of the comments on the net that link melanin to “best”, “superior”, “civilized”, etc… It really sounds familiar when you know the early racial conceptualizations… I listened to a rap song about 1 year ago in which the singer called African Albino people “traitors” !
Also, Kant and Blumebach and others considered the “white” man as the primal human for extremely similar reasons. Their “whiteness” could only be the point wherefrom other “races” degenerated…
I have nothing against melanin doing this or that, it does what it does and it’s good or bad, and we can’t escape it if it does ! Obviously !
BUT, saying that it has a POLITICAL effect BECAUSE it changes people’s characters is an other thing. And it NECESSITATES to believe in “race” first.
Finally, my biggest problem with: it makes racists VICTIMS of their own actions. Come on ! They know exactly what they are doing and THEY think they are superior. THEY think “blacks” will be extinct soon…
“Blacks” (whichever group referred to as such) do not need to position themselves into a “confrontation” with the white man to find reasons to be proud of themselves. There are reasons enough all over the planet, and it can be done while ignoring the “white” man. I think THIS is a huge error Dr Cress-Welsing and the other “theoreticians” of melanin are making. They end up *needing* the “white” man as a mirror of their selves…
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@ Cornlia
I have most of the same problems that you raise with melanin theory. There seem to be some inescapable conclusions if you want to believe it it.
– Dark skinned Black people are more “fully human” than light Black people
– Asians & Latinos & Arabs are less human than most Black people.
Seriously?
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@insert name & @resw77
Good points. Very logical and probably closer to the truth than what we typically hear.
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This is a controversial yet interesting post.
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@Truthbetold
It’s funny how you literally “throw” your thoughts at who you *think* will say or think this or that and announce that you are leaving… hence are absolutely not here to debate on something quite important.
The rest of what you say is what you *think*. The fact that you think it doesn’t make it real.
Racists actually think they are superior to you. That the basis of racism.
Maybe those who (you think) want to “look like you” are not racist but confused, don’t realize how manipulated they are and express that through their behavior (like excessive tanning). They resist the racist admonition of “whiteness” through these actions. The real racists NEVER tan. They think they are and want to stay WHITE ! They avoid the sun.
“everyone else so some degree” is quite a SENTENCE !!!
I can only imagine that you don’t know many people who don’t look like you very closely to have such a negative state of mind on “others”… Sad.
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Jangil who are extinct most likely because Europeans came with a host of dieases they had no immunity to and Jarawa people who are in the lower numbers like 300-200 are very dark. I love their skin tone.
Europeans have been trying to seperate themselves from Moorish conquest and have given names to their efforts like the visigoth spanish term sengre azul or as we know it in English “Blue Blood” coming from them staying in all day and being able to see their blue veins.
@ Adeen have you ever read the poetess RuNett Nia Ebo “Lord, Lord why did you make me black”
http://www.africaspeaks.com/reasoning/index.php?topic=2128.0;wap2
It is quite controversial but I like it. I would love to hear your opinion on it. However, you can ignore my request I have too much teacher in me sometimes, my wife gets on me about not turning it off.
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@ Everyone
Yes…discussion about Melanin is a controversial topic – Just like Racism. Simply because everyone believes they know or understands what it is. However, as the many discussions that have already shown, and will continue to take place on this blog about racism and its effects, this is hardly the case!
This i believe creates the biggest problem. Just like there is a division reflected here on this blog about what Racism is and who can be racist. Not just among white and Black people. But among all the respective groupings too…Black, brown, yellow, white etc…whatever choice of colour you may wish to label yourself as. No one group can collectively agree on what racism is, its effects and who is primarily responsible for it.
Is it really that surprising this should be any different with a grossly mis-understood integral to life creating, enhancing and consciously adaptive substance called Melanin?
Unfortunately, trying to understand either subject purely from a “material” or “solid” “cause and effect” perspective will Fail!. Something which abagond’s post along with comments by various anti-Melanin Theory posters are all guilty of.
As Dr Jewel Pookrum says, whose work, I believe, on helping to understand Melanin now transcends Dr Francis Cress Welsings:
This is why the “conventional” scientific approach dos not work and baffles those scientists,and any one else, who would seek to explain it in simple chemical and biological process terms. It requires more than this. It requires a Metaphysical analytical approach. Something “conventional” science and I suspect most people here, including abagond, may be reluctant to adopt.
This is exactly the same approach required for understanding issues such as “spirit” or “consciousness”.
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If Welsing considers that psychological and behavioral tendency inherent in whites, which one or ones does she consider inherent in blacks?
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@aspergum
I would guess that it is the inexhaustible ability to put up with people who are always trying to insult them.
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Kwamla
As always, you nailed it. May I add one thing?
You really wanna know why the topic of melanin is so controversial?
Because it proves that black people are superior to whites and whites can’t handle it. ‘Nuff said.
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@Kwamla
We will of course never be able to “discuss” this topic.
We are not looking at it from the same perspective. What you are describing is a religion. The “theorists” are priestesses (it’s no surprise several are women, for a spirituality born in the US that is supposed to have African roots). They base their “spirituality” on suppositions. Not on scientifically described facts.
One example
There is “guilt” is our mode of thinking… Now isn’t that a very religious, Judeo-Christian approach of it …
What we (I, there may be differences in each of our approaches) are talking about is the description of biological / social / political / historical objects.
So there is NO WAY we can “understand”, because it’s not about understanding, it’s about BELIEVING. Just like “race”.
And this is something that I want to study, if I can find the time, how much of the ideology of race is a religion.
When you say:
You are assuming that we “classify” ourselves. No we don’t. There are many of us on this planet who don’t “choose” a color, or a “race” for that matter. Others try to or succeed in imposing it to us.
I don’t agree with that:
I think that most people on this blog agree that “racism” is “white supremacy”.
And the “problem” with the melanin theory, from my point of view, is that it is currently building itself as another type of supremacist thinking, which cannot be put an application in our current political context, but might one day, somewhere.
Last precise illustration:
It doesn’t “baffle” anyone, it is simply *not* something scientists can work WITH because it’s a religious approach. They can work ON it though, to study it, understand what it says and see how it evolves and impacts society. That’s what sociologists do, for instance.
So yes, Kwamla, we are indeed not talking about the same thing, but it doesn’t mean we *don’t understand*, it means we don’t *adhere* to it. Because we don’t *have to*, like any other religious or spiritual approach. It *usually* is a choice we make, unless we are brought up to believe in it.
Peace.
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Illustration of what I just tried to demonstrate:
Summary:
“Lack” of understanding: “they don’t get it”.
Supremacist approach. “because they can’t, they are inferior beings”
Dogma. “That’s the way it is”.
Truthbetold said it all.
But she totally forgets that there are all kinds of people who don’t adhere to that spiritual view of the world.
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“Melanin Theory: Some say whites are cold-hearted, warlike, unspiritual and so on because they suffer from melanin deficiency. More melanin makes you more fully human. This is not supported by the science”
Right. It begs the question why are Africans & other non-European races warlike, were warring amongst themselves even before Europeans colonized their continents? I’d like to know how you square that ACTUAL FACT with the Melanin Theory.
I do have eyes & ears & the ability to reason. And I know for a fact that blacks are no less violent, cold, murderous than other groups.
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I think it relies on people believing race is a biological fact, not that it is a biological fact.
I watched her Donahue appearance and I’m not sure I believe her theory either. I definitely don’t buy that white people are envious of black folks. The examples she offered (the game of pool, chocolate for v-day, “tall, dark, and handsome”) seem ludicrous to me but I’m not a psychologist.
That whites fear genetic annihilation could be true, but if so it’s only an effect of the true reason for racism: to provide a way for wealthy, powerful europeans to gain more power and wealth and have poor, powerless europeans help them maintain it.
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I didn’t see Abagond express an opinion on Melanin theory or an adhesion to it or not, Kwamla… He just stated a few facts about what melanin is, and who has proposed a melanin theory…
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@Solesearch
yes, “it relies on people believing race is a biological fact”. I think my phrasing was not correct English. Did it imply that race was a biological fact the way I put it ? (Remember I’m French, sometimes the subtleties of grammar escape me…)
And I agree with the last part, the first to be called or to call themselves a “race” were the artistocrats, who also referred to themselves as blue bloods, right ? The term “race” then evolved to designate certain categories of light-skinned people in Europe, with Blumenbach inventing the Caucasian origin of Europeans, based simply on the supposed beauty of the Caucasian women, who were also slaves in Europe and the mediterranean and at one point used to “reproduce” that “white and pink” (cheeks) beauty.
The “Caucasian” is totally invented out of the “blue” (if I may say), and yet most Americans “believe” it is real. And a few African-Americans believe that the so-called Caucasians lived in caves and never saw the sun, while a few “whites” (the supremacist ones) believe that Africans lived (and still live, some of them believe) in trees. I guess we all have our dummies…
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@ Cornila
If what you say is correct that I am describing a religion then you really do seem to have adopted something of you’re own religious zeal in order to prove me wrong!
“…We will of course never be able to “discuss” this topic…”
The fact that Abagond has devoted a post to this subject and we appear to be engaging in debate about Melanin shows this not to be strictly the case.
You appear to be projecting what you understood from my many detailed comments about Melanin into what you would stereotypically describe as a religion. Rather than, as you are so keen to stress, deal with the FACTS I have offered you in any sort of methodical scientific process. Not that we should uphold the “scientific model” as the ONLY acceptable way to process information. As I am sure I shouldn’t have to be the last one to tell you this method can fall short from a sociological and other perspectives.
So sure lets have the discussion but why not stick to FACTS of what we know about Melanin? Just as we would do if we were discussing Racism. Lets try and put our adopted pet “prejudices to one side for a moment. That is if we can of course?
If you agree that racism=white supremacy (which is a start). Do you also agree that Black people cannot be primarily responsible for racism too?
Or that Black people cannot be advocates of racism (white supremacy) in the same way?
Are you sure you would agree on both of these with me? Just reading the many comments on this blog including Abagonds would tell you a different story!
On the question of supremacy which you and Truthbetold also raised:
I would have to say….From the perspective of which you are both trying to understand it both statements could appear to have some legitimacy.
Which is precisely why I made this statement:
Contrary to your interpretation this is not about adopting a fervent religious devotion to a set of beliefs! It involves adopting a method of analysis which includes rather than excludes non-material or non-physical evidence.
So for example if the evidence suggests the substance we call Melanin is “conscious” or “self-aware” do we just ignore this because it cannot be catered for in our “conventionalistic scientific paradigm” ?
Or do we seek to include this evidence and more in a more expanded and inclusive one?
This is the REAL choice we each need to make for greater and clearer understanding of Melanin…
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@ phoebeprunelle
I can’t prevent what people might choose to label me as. As I see it. It will always be a product of the current system of questioned or unquestioned beliefs they hold.
What is more important is how I see myself. Or what I am agreeing with what others reflect to me about my self!
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I cannot prove a belief wrong, Kwamla. I am okay with anyone believing anything.
I simply think this theory is dangerous. Not for me. For those who adopt it as a dogma.
When I say cannot debate I base it on the fact that “beliefs” cannot be debated !
What facts you have offered are this, right ? That melanin has an effects on the way we, all of us, act ? I am very much okay with that. We all have more or less of it, we produce different type of things (like vitamins) with it. Okay. What I added is that we not only biological beings. We have much more to us.
I totally agree with you that science is not infallible, as a matter of it IS fallible, that’s its very postulate. Anything demonstrated as “true” one day can be be proven wrong another day by the same scientist or another.
It is not a start, actually, Kwamla, on my part, it is the result of a process of de-learning and not learning what my society wanted me to believe. And I totally agree that Africans (and other people defined as “black” in white supremacist societies) cannot be primarily responsible for racism as we know it today.
However, I think that some “black people” can be advocates of white supremacy when they are totally subjugated by it. There are a few examples , I think. But MOST people defined as “black” cannot be advocates of white supremacy because it would destroy them.
Kwamla, this is where we diverge:
That is just not possible, Kwamla, because you are asking science to not be science anymore. Science is a way, a method to approach the world. It cannot be something else.
Different approaches to understand can complete each other. But you can’t ask spirituality, metaphysics, science, religion, mysticism to mix together. They are different takes on the by humans. That is not a problem to me.
Again, people can follow whichever approach they, but you just can’t ask science to validate something when it can’t because the problem is posed in another sphere of reflection. As I said, scientists such as sociologists can approach a theory and examine its impacts on human societies, and every other scientist will do it with his or her own personal background. That’s why the scientific approach can only be a humble one. It never leads to the *truth*.
Thus, stating that you know the “truth” belongs to another path of understanding. That’s what I described as a religion. Maybe it can be given another name. There is nothing wrong with fundamentally, it’s just different. Maybe you can name it since you have an idea of what it could be:
It won’t be scientific. That’s all. And I make no value judgement on that.
I make value judgements on the fact that it may lead to dangerous things. Like people thinking they are inherently superior. We know where it can lead, don’t we ?
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Kwamla
May I make a small suggestion?
Save your energy.
Whites are metaphysical vampires that will suck you dry. They have demonstrated that they are unable to stay away from us even if their very lives depended on it. They follow us around even in cyber-space desperate to “prove themselves” to a group of people they once called 3/5ths human.
Continue your meditation daily. Gets lots of sunlight to get as dark as possible. You and I both know what’s coming. And even though they scream and shout in denial…they do too.
I forgot to add one thing to you the other day but since they read every damn comment we make, I’ll email you personally if that’s ok with you?
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I was thinking about this, in relation to the melanin theory:
A fact is something that can be proven, right ?
“scientific fact – an observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (although its truth is never final)”
“fact
/fakt/
Noun
A thing that is indisputably the case.
Information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
Synonyms
reality – deed – actuality – truth – case – circumstance”
So how come “more-melanin” people, who are supposed to have all that is necessary to “dominate” (a word Dr CW uses a lot in conjunction with “recessive” which she puts in all kinds of contexts, so she uses scientific concepts but twists them to her liking- something to notice here, she is a scientist herself, and knows that “science” impresses the listener…) do not dominate ?
Maybe that is the sign that melanin does not do it all ?
Of course, you can declare (and I would if I could) that “domination” is not the result of force but the result of love. That would be cool, but it isn’t the case.
What I am trying to say (in all the above too) is that you can’t just declare that things are such a way for them to be. You have to rely on a methodology, and as you said, there are different ones, the scientific one being the most humble because it -is not supposed to- doesn’t seek the *truth*. So anyone can prove something if it is (real) with the scientific method.
Other methods don’t rely on observation and logic, but on decision and statement. Some *declare* the truth. Other don’t…
If we don’t find a common ground (which is what science proposes, as well as religion, etc), we can’t debate because we are not on the same stage. I won’t debate the existence of God with someone who believes there is one or with someone who believe there isn’t any, because none of both can prove anything, and I can’t prove them wrong. They both *know the truth*.
However, I think I can validate (if I had the time and knowledge to do research on that specific topic with a team of people from various background, so that nobody could say it’s “racially biased” – and yet some would say this one is “half-this” or “half-that” and therefore “cannot understand”) if melanin does what Dr CW and others claim it does or invalidate it.
Declaring that *it does it* is a truth. But it is not necessarily reality.
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Remember that those who invented “race”, most of them were philosophers… and were then followed or accompanied by naturalists…
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lol
Really ? This is a blog, isn’t it ? Thus others read what you write. Do you read what they write ? Not sure.
Truthbetold… <- what I'm saying.
Find some peace, Truthbetold, not "everyone" with less melanin is "against" you or enviing you. It must quite stressful to think so.
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Cornlia,
No, you didn’t imply that. What I was trying to point out is that the doctor’s theory doesn’t require race to be biological to be true, it only requires people believe race is biological.
Didn’t know that. That’s why I like this blog, you pick up on all manner of interesting things.
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@ Truthbetold
Feel free to email me your comments…
According to metaphysical principles what we put out is what we get back. So we shouldn’t really be too surprised at what we encounter along our paths!
However, there is a lot more to understand here than most of us realize and although what you say has its truth. So too does the reality that some whites do wish to genuinely understand or appreciate how Racism or Melanin functions. Just in the same way some Black people or POC would fervently deny the significance or function of both!
It all depends on the perspective they’ve chosen to adopt. The trick is to be able to develop enough awareness to discern either!
Also, remember from a metaphysical perspective we’ve all hard interchangeably, Black, white, European, African, Asian, Extra/Inner Terrestrial, etc….etc….lives anyway!
So from a greater self-awareness and consciousness point of view. Why should it really matter?
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@King
There are several other internal conclusions about Melanin “Theory”, that cannot be easily resolved using a scientific framework. Never mind the fact that they have presented no controlled experiments or published , peer-reviewed papers that have experiments that can be duplicated.
What I find interesting is that Kwamla et. al. (or Abagond) have mentioned that melanin is an organic semiconductor that has potential uses as a material for semiconductor manufacture that is both flexible and low-power. Thta discovery won its Japanese discoverer the Nobel Prize in 2000.
Threaded replies Abagond, threaded replies…..
@Cornlia
It doesn’t matter. Black women’s insanity is like a ticking time bomb. Stay with them long enough , and eventually they flip and start spouting all kids of crazy crap for no reason. No excuse I need to brush up on my Japanese and German. It seems that they have finally gotten the big booty gene….
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@ Cornila
So too are guns and knives. These too are dangerous! Not for me! But for those who might choose to adopt them as weapons! Right?
If you believe such a theory is dangerous then you DO probably believe it is dangerous FOR YOU! So perhaps this is worth exploring why you should believe this. This is the same fear most white people express when the issue of racism comes up for discussion. I think judging from one of your last posts you supplied at the least an appreciation of the Racism=white supremacy Function. So perhaps the same can be found for Melanin?
Some FACTS I have offered you would more honestly and correctly be summed up as this way:
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@Kwamla
First, to this I adhere to totally:
I am very much aware of what we are in this universe: nothing. little nothings who think they are so much. We are here just to pass on something, that’s what Capitalism and white supremacy have erased from their vision and why they are so wrong. The universe doesn’t belong to us, we can’t “pierce its secrets” (as they paradoxically say in an admirable iMax movie on the universe at the Kennedy Space Center). the only thing the universe should tell us is to be humble.
But at the same time it seems we are made to think. So I think. I use logic.
Then… on the rest of it, come on, you know these types of “polemical” stuff just make me smile at my screen, you know:
Frankly, honestly, Kwamla, have you ever heard about caring ? If I care about what racism does, then I care about what any form of “discrimination” does to others (and to me, but I hardly have to care about that in this day and time, right?), especially when I can see that something looks so similar to the racism I know, white supremacy. Would I care about talking about these things, spending time reflecting on them (a LOT of time), reading about them (more and more time) if I didn’t care ? and I care because I know racism is stupid, idiotic, illogical, fundamentally cruelly unfair.
I am not afraid of racism because I know what it is. I know I could be killed by some crazy racist (whichever side) who thinks either that I am a “traitor to the race” or that I am an inferior being on who to take revenge for the hundreds of years of racism. So what ? Is my life that important ? If it happens, it happens. My problem is general, I would like this human society to be freed from the ideology of race. It’s been here too long. Far too long. I discussed this with my South African friend who was 17 when Apartheid stopped, he thinks he was one of the victims of Dr Basson because he has all kinds of scars and traces on his body and diseases that hit him like ear cancer. He sees things exactly the same way I do. He is very scared of the development of supremacist thinking on the part of some African-American thinkers. He also thinks they are stuck in the racial frame of thinking. He is the descendant of several types of people from Europe, Africa, India and Melanasia. He has been told many times that he is not African by African-Americans (not by Africans) because to them he is not “black”. These are the kinds of things I care about. I don’t want anyone to have to go through this, and it is saddening when you start to hear and read Afro-descendants beginning to hold the exact same discourse. I’m just saying it, they are big enough to know what to do about it.
I read all the things you posted on melanin Kwamla and I SAID SEVERAL TIMES ABOVE that I have absolutely no problem with the fact that melanin has an impact on us. What more do you want me to do ? Accept that I am an inferior being ? I’m joking, but people like Truthbetold are not. She actually believes that. It’s her problem, not mine.
I will “accept” anything on melanin someone can prove to me is real. I don’t even know what we are discussing here because we basically agree.
My point is simply that there are people with special agendas that they base on theories and who don’t mind twisting things to their goal in spite of logic and evidence… I am being consistent with myself: I want to understand how racism works, and this is one thing that has the potential to develop into something similar. Now, as I said, I still have to read more detailed stuff and I will use your references, but I don’t have time these days.
Peace.
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@Sondis,
“I recall Dr. Francis Cress Welsing appeared on the now defunct tv show Donahue, and the predominantly white audience was visibly upset regarding her statement.”
White people were so defensive, what Dr. Francis Cress said, went right over their heads and they took it the wrong way, like most white people do on this blog.
I’ve seen that episode of Donahue, too, and from what I can remember the audience mostly laughed at how ridiculous her theories were. All that stuff about Freudian symbolism and how the white man’s fear of black man’s sexuality is the reason they prefer golf (with small white balls) to basket ball (with large coloured balls), or her similar ideas about billiards, I mean, that stuff is just quackery and deserves to be mocked.
I don’t know how you think it went over the audiences head.
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As Dr Jewel Pookrum says, whose work, I believe, on helping to understand Melanin now transcends Dr Francis Cress Welsings:
“In order to” free” the MELANIN Biopolymer of past biases, judgments and criticisms, all of which inhibits its phonon-electron-photon capabilities has become necessary. The process of Personal self-reflection to identify and neutralize any biased or critical perceptions surrounding ones Melanin encourages a biological and physiological chemical state to be produced within the body. This altered blood quality, will support the full activation of Melanin. “
@Kwamla,
What does that mean? It doesn’t make any sense at all.
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I am glad that I have plenty of it and love the way I glow in the sun. I also love the fact that I can be out for hours and know that it is doing me good not harm.
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“All I can say is “black skin” looks brown to me… And is represented as dark brown too. In Niger, Burkina Faso, Senegal and Cameroon, I have never seen anyone “black”, unless they were very very sick and there skin reflected the illness.
And “white” is light beige. I have never seen anyone “white” as paper anywhere in Europe or the US.”-Cornlia
Ooh,Really?
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“Dr Frances Cress Welsing, a psychiatrist, says whites fear being wiped out genetically by those with more melanin. That is why they feel the need to control people of colour and keep them down.”
Ha! Very well then, you keep this down yourselves, and try not to blame ‘neglect’ for it if you please:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4rer13prrc)
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@ Brengunn
If you understood what I mentioned in one of my previous comments:
“… the substance we call Melanin is “conscious” or “self-aware…”
Then it will make sense. Of course, if you are unable to conceptualize this then it won’t!
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@ Cornlia
“…The universe doesn’t belong to us,..”
If the universe doesn’t belong to us. Then who does it belong to?
I think I understand what you are saying and your concerns. All I would say is that understanding and appreciating ALL of the components that make up each one of us is crucial and fundamental to understanding ourselves and our respective places in the universe.
I believe the study of Racism and the role and function that Melanin plays in our physiological, psychological, emotional and spiritual well being is no less important in this respect.
The REAL danger comes from having to believe LESS in your self in the face of mis-information and self-induced indoctrination designed to deny and keep you from discovering and realizing your greater connection to who you truly are.
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WTF I miss this post and now I gotta read through a bunch of interesting comments before I add my relevant two cents.
Its so unfair – maybe its because I have unfair skin….
Obviously and well thought out and written article of a topic of interest.
I have been reading
Melanin, Afrocentricity, and Pseudoscience by
BERNARD R. ORTIZ DE MONTELLANO
Anthropology Department, Wayne State University, Detroit,
Michigan 48228
YEARBOOK OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 36:33-58 (1993)
This anthropologist quotes and cites Dr.Welsings statements from here book The Isis Papers extensively in his critique of how Afrocentric scholars have veered off into pseudoscience.
I still conducting an extensive review of this subject and the works involved.
Ultimately this endeavor should ,indeed already has enriched my life far more than just reading The Isis Papers or any other Afrocentric work alone.
And this blog is a important part of the process ,specifically (but not exclusively) as it relates the component of the scientific process known as peer or public review.
Anyway – why is it that “white” european scientist named genetic traits that appear foremost dominant but “subordinate” traits are labeled recessive?
I’m definitely going to be reading this post and its comments quite thoroughly,its going to be an interesting an informative spring (I almost feel like arab, or a muslim arab except I’m a atheist)….
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Reblogged this on Mbeti's Blog and commented:
Ah Melanin…..
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I think we may be able also to sort out the varieties of psychopathology that give rise to both racism and pseudoscience.
As it was and is persistent racism that motivated me to read with Interest The Isis Papers By Dr.welsing ,and racism which so structured my social environment that made it difficult to acquire “objective” scientific knowledge and dialogue so as to accept the “possible” scientific distortions that characterize Dr.Welsings work in particular and the work of some Afrocentric scholars in general.
The Persistent “racism” with which I most others who look like me experience daily is well document by this and other blogs including my own – thus what remains is definitive definitions ,explanations and most importantly (at least to me) solutions.
Two issues within this subject stand out – as race is a false concept ,phenotypic groups are a perceived fact.
The two issues for me are aesthetics and parapsychology.
But I hesitate to say more less I fall prey to mine own cognitive distortions.
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Melanin is not magical. It doesn’t give you super strength, you can’t channel bolts of lightning with it, if you rub a Black man’s brown booty it won’t produce a genie – well, not usually. The amount of melanin can however affect the brains of others, causing them to form all sorts of strange judgments about you, but this is more of a psychological response.
As for “West Africans” with green eyes. Well, unless you give those people a DNA test, you can’t really say those people are un-mixed. Berbers, Arabs and Europeans all have had interactions with West Africans for centuries. Some of those West Africans do indeed have various levels of admixture.
Furthermore, melanin is not house paint. If you take two equally sized populations, one Black and one White, their mixing will not create all beige people in a few hundred years. Genetic inheritance and variation does not work that way. Yes, you will have many people with a medium skin tone, but you will also have the extremes of White and Black as well.
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Let’s take this tricky example, that I know of very intimately because it concerns my husband.
He is African, from Cameroon. And guess what ? He has an allergy to… sun rays. I guess melanin doesn’t help too much in his case… He has to take antihistaminics when he knows we’re going to have to stay in the sun for a while during the day, and that’s even in the winter.
In his family, everyone has allergy to something, cold or lukewarm water -they have to take hot showers-, cold weather, whatever. They all get rash and some type of eczema. They are different shades of brown from brown to dark brown. And some live in Cameroon and others in Europe or the US. So it’s not the effect of “whiteness”… (just in case some wondered)
My husband’s allergy began apparently after he got sunburnt – I had told him to not forget to use a little protection because sun + water + sand doesn’t care if you this or that, especially if you haven’t exposed yourself for a while- during the summer in France, on the Atlantic coast, when he was doing a camp with kids. He is dark-skinned but not very dark.
So, where had his melanin gone ?
I suppose some will imagine my “vampire nature” has swallowed it somehow, heheh.
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@ Truth P
Yes, “really”. Just a little reminder that skin color is not “race”, even if of course it was one of its funding criteria.
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@ Kwamla
By that I meant WE belong to it, IT doesn’t belong to US… Do you see what I mean ? Humility should tell us that… Who would we be to think that it is “ours” ?…
I totally agree with that. For the moment, I am trying to understand how racism functions… I’ll turn to my self if I have time in my lifetime. My “continuation” (my children and other people’s chidren) are my focus… The future… I would like to contribute to make it better, otherwise I don’t see what’s the point of being if it is to make it worse… for all.
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@ALL
Can’t we all agree that everyone is equal in God’s eyes despite how much melanin they have in their skin? Because I do. We are all equal in God’s eyes.
@Cornelia
As a young, Black woman. I am trying to understand how racism functions as well since I barely had much experience with racism yet. Why and how do people of other races feel that they are better than the other races and ethnicities. Either way, I hate racism. Yes we do belong to the universe.
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@ Adeen
I think that thankfully, that is what most Black people believe. Most of us have no desire to be superior than any other race. Most of us would just like to be seen as equals. I am not in any way better than Black folk with lighter skin than me. I am not better than my Asian friends, Latin friends, Middle Eastern friends or my White friends, and I honestly don’t feel the need to be.
When I say that I am an Anti-Racist, I don’t mean only when it effects me negatively, I mean ALWAYS. I don’t stand for Black racism and more than I do White racism. Sure, White racism is a much more powerful force in the world today than Black racism is, but both are ignorant and detestable.
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@King
Well said. No race is better than any other race at all. I am glad to hear from you. Everyone is equal in God’s eyes. Racism is wrong!
Also ”Black racism” is merely Black prejudice and bigotry. Black prejudice is when a Black person feels that they are better than a certain group of people or if they feel that light skin is better than dark skin. That isn’t right because everyone is equal in God’s eyes.
However these prejudiced minded Blacks don’t have the power to oppress the people they hate and look down on.
The White elite has the economic, political and social power to oppress Blacks, Latinos and other minorities and have been using their power, coupled with their White skin color to oppress minorities and stay on top for centuries. The oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor.
I am against institutionalized racism, White racism and Black prejudice. No, I don’t necessarily endorse Black prejudice at all because I don’t believe that people should ever think they are better than you for being a different race or culture. I don’t endorse White racism or institutionalized racism.
As a man with more experience on this topic than I do and me being a young woman, part of this information came from reading some philosopher on racism and equality and oppression. I forgot that person’s name. Don’t think I am trying to excuse Black prejudice/bigotry. I am not trying to excuse Black prejudice or bigotry.
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@ Adeen
In most English dictionaries racism will have two or three definitions:
rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm] noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
The primary definition is always tied to a belief in racial superiority. Now, I agree, it would be difficult for Black Americans to affect definition #2, but in my book, two out of three ain’t bad!
I will stick to the more impactful term, “Racism.”
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“Yes, “really”. Just a little reminder that skin color is not “race”,
Well,that’s not what I gathered from the statement that I copied and pasted above.What I gathered is that to you no one is black and no one is white?You have never seen a black person unless they were afflicted with some kind of horrible illness and you have never seen a white person?
I live in America and I see people who are black and people who are white as milk every day and they appear to be in good health.I was offended by what you said for many reasons.It has always made me cringe to hear black people,from what I gather you are not black but have a black spouse or lover, say that black people don’t exist (Though you did not say this,what you said was similar). My father is black.Not brown with red or yellow undertones he is just black.He is not ill.I have always sensed that black people that say such things lack a sense of pride,have an agenda and they would rather be lumped in with a larger brown category to feel included.
I believe that sometimes people develop a “we are all the same” mantra because in their mind it will make us all get along better, but what usually ends up happening is that people like my father and my sister existence gets blotted out because they don’t fit into the wider brown category.
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@Adeen
your theism is annoying
its annoying that a religious concept is used in this case to refute a Pseudoscience.
@all
since the concept of race is false any derivative concept i.e. racism is also false.
Social discrimination based on group phenotypic traits – while allegedly accurate is to unfamiliar and cumbersome.
I state however that the same limitation of knowledge and development that allows the majority of our species to embrace theism also allows it to embrace “racism”.
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I gotta cosign Truth P. ‘s comment
esp.
I believe that sometimes people develop a “we are all the same” mantra because in their mind it will make us all get along better, but what usually ends up happening is that people like my father and my sister existence gets blotted out because they don’t fit into the wider brown category.
seen it too many times and I don’t like it.
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“I think that thankfully, that is what most Black people believe. Most of us have no desire to be superior than any other race. Most of us would just like to be seen as equals.””
@king
Many black people probably do think this way and from what i see this thinking presents many problems for black people because it does not appear that most other people think this way.I sometimes question if that kind of thinking is even normal or is it something that only occurs when you come from a people that have been enslaved.I also think there are many more black people that would just like to be fully integrated into whatever European run societies.Which means that they probably won’t ever be equal but maybe being integrated is good enough or the most that they can hope for.
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damn ,another cosign ,this is getting embarrassing…
@king
Many black people probably do think this way and from what i see this thinking presents many problems for black people because it does not appear that most other people think this way.
I sometimes question if that kind of thinking is even normal or is it something that only occurs when you come from a people that have been enslaved.
I also think there are many more black people that would just like to be fully integrated into whatever European run societies.Which means that they probably won’t ever be equal but maybe being integrated is good enough or the most that they can hope for.
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Truth P
When your father and sister wear black clothes, the have exactly the same color as the clothes they wear ?
My point is, Truth P, to make sure that we don’t mix skin color with “race”.
“White” and “black” as used in the US Census are not about skin color (otherwise many other people than Afro-descendants would fit in the “black” category, like Indians from India).
They are about socially constructed designations, labelings, not descriptions of appearance, even though they are based on them because it’s the seemingly most obvious, as it is what people “see”.
Also, I NEVER said anywhere in all the comments I have made in here that “we are all the same”.
Please read what I have written (if you have time) and don’t focus on one comment in particular. I am very clear on I how I perceive things from what I know about the “racial norm”.
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@Mbeti
Co-sign ! (see you’re not alone)
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Actually, most modern racism is based directly upon the tenets of evolution. But racism will use whatever means are available, at the time, to promote it.
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@MBeti
I am a very young woman, and I found you very offensive. I happen to believe in God and the Bible. My religious convictions does influence many of the decisions I make in my life and ideas.
Why are you one of those people who believe that Christianity is a White man’s religion?
I am not a sellout nor do I support White supremacy. I am here to speak up against institutionalized racism, White racism and prejudice among my own Black people. I wasn’t trying to excuse Black racism. Blacks don’t have the power to oppress anyone since we are the oppressed.
How can I ever debate with my own people if they don’t even want to hear my opinion or viewpoints without attacking it or calling me ”annoying”. .
@King
Thanks for your definition but if Blacks meet two of the three defintions of racism in the dictionary then it is racism.
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@ Adeen
Yes, any one of the definitions would apply as a legitimate way that racism is defined in the english language.
As for Mbeti, a lot of things get discussed here, atheism and religion are all part of it. I’m sure he doesn’t really mean to offensive, he’s just coming from a different place. But of course, for the sake of productive debate, it might sometimes be more helpful to avoid belittling the beliefs of others (as a general rule) so long as they are willing to do likewise.
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@King
I didn’t know religion was apart of the discussions here. I have been commenting for a while not for a long time.
”But of course, for the sake of productive debate, it might sometimes be more helpful to avoid belittling the beliefs of others (as a general rule) so long as they are willing to do likewise.”
You are correct. I don’t ever want to belittle the beliefs of others but I felt that was what MBeti was doing with me.
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Well, y’know Adeen, it’s “topic creep,” which happens on most threads to one degree or another. Faith and Atheism find their way into a lot of threads somehow. But I certainly wasn’t implying that you were belittling Mbeti’s beliefs, I just meant that as a “general rule” we should ALL try to be respectful of one another’s personal beliefs, even though we may challenge or disagree with them from time to time. Just my opinion. 🙂
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King, I know you weren’t implying that you that I was belitting Mbeti’s beliefs.
I thought Mbeti was belitting my beliefs by his comments. He was.
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@ SomeGuy
I assume you were replying to my post.
You wrote:
Chances are that “Berbers, Arabs and Europeans” inherited these features from Black Africans, not the other way around. These features and others not usually associated with Blacks (ie: “Asian” epicanthic fold, also common in Africa) were probably part of the Black gene pool long before there existed any “Berbers, Arabs and Europeans”. Obviously, miscegenation occurred on the Continent, but it does not account for every instance of blue/green eyes, almond-shaped eyes, light skin, straight hair, etc… (read: any feature people erroneously consider a monopoly of other “races”).
This may be different in the Americas, where Blacks are more mixed. But that’s a discussion for another thread.
If I brought up “dark skinned green-eyed West Africans” in my previous post it was in reaction to this phrase by Abagond I previously quoted:
It seemed to me this was contradicted by green/blue-eyed Blacks like the ones on these pictures:
As you can see, the eyes put aside they don’t seem to lack melanin in their organism. Hence my initial question: “How does science account for that?”
I erroneously assumed that the quantity of melanin in their eyes was dependent of the quantity in their skin. After verification, this is not how things work.
(Further search online taught me that ocular albinism and Waardenburg syndrome account for some instances of blue eyes among Black populations.)
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Europeans did not reach their present whiteness till about 6,000 to 12,000 years ago through a mutation to the SLC24A5 gene.
It is theorized that there was a very rapid lightening of the average skin color in Northern Europe due to a gene pool shift. Because of an increasing population density there was a shift away from meat and fish towards grain as a staple.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1210056/White-Europeans-evolved-5-500-years-ago-food-habits-changed.html
http://www.womenofchina.cn/html/womenofchina/report/45296-1.htm
A lack of vitamin D can cause fetal abnormalities and death. A potentially critical issue even today, and even more so for darker complected women in areas with low solar radiation.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/5/1177.1.full
http://www.obgmanagement.com/article_pages.asp?AID=8932
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This explain why white people are so freaken savage and barbaric when they came over the caucus mountains. They are genetically mutalitated. A Mutant. They try to turn this around and make movies like Xmen, people with powers instead and heroes. VERY PROUD TO BE BLACK!!! And I’m not being racist either. For so many centuries black people have been taught the we were NOTHING. A PEON. 3/5ths human. My my my what a little DNA and science work can REALLY prove years later.
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Because he is a Crazy. Condescension is one of the tools the conspiracy theorist uses to make himself feel superior to others.
In a perfect world, yes. But as you can see, Conspiracists, Afrocentrists and other crazies try to gain a critical mass on otherwise mainstream boards, and then drown out more moderate opinions. This is also a fact in the real, in places like college campuses, workplaces, talk shows, and anyplace where opinionated black people (Marxists, STEM Graduate level, Nkrumaists, Africanists, Black Conservatives) gather. Black people have this nasty habit of accommodating them in an attempt to be polite , instead of calling them out on their B.S.
The idea that “Melanin is Magic” is one of the more ridiculous claims that is made by these groups. We should mock them for holding fast to such superstitious nonsense, especially when they veer off into scientistic silliness (‘purifying the biopolymer’). Unless they come up with peer–reviewed paper, with a repeatable experiment, they have no right to be taken seriously, or to have their opinions treated with respect.
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Christianity is a European religion, the fact that a Jewish Jesus was at its origin doesn’t change that fact.
And actually religion IS a part of the discussion here (talking to Adeen here), all the more since the melanin theory does include a religious approach to it.
Hegel, the German philosopher who was one of the main “makers” of “race”. That is, HE *decided*, all alone in front of his manuscripts, following the ones that preceded him by a few years, that humans were indeed divided into races according to HIS decision to settle the divisions and apparently everyone followed (even though it sounded really, really stupid). AND he definitely linked the “Caucasian’s -following Blumenbach’s coinage- greatness” was totally linked to his spirituality, that is Christianity, in the sense that he believe in the unity of spirit, father, and son, that is, eventually “consciousness”, to put it briefly.
So yes, religions definitely played a role, as, for instance, the “black” part of humanity was supposed to be “naïve” in its approach of the world and to put spirits in stones (fetishes) that they would throw away when the gods didn’t serve them. He basically didn’t care to even begin to understand what spirituality was about in Africa.
As for the “yellow” people (“Mongols”), that was a little more complicated and it seems he would have needed a few more years to settle on his ideas of their spirituality (probably too complicated for him).
So religion/ spirituality was a part of it, because it “determined” the superiority or inferiority of a “race”…
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sorry … greatness” to his spirituality… ^^forgot to proofread that part and no editing possible…
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Wakawaka I don’t suppose you have read any of comments above since you entertain us with the hilarious wakawakan theory of “Caucasians living in caves” BS…
Caucasians are the invention of Blumenbach, one of the early classifiers of what they coined “races”. The real Caucasians were warriors, horse riders who did live in the Caucasus, not in caves, they have houses.
And if we want to despise people who lived in “caves” and mountainous areas, we have a lot to take of in this US of A in the form of Navajo and other pueblo people who built their homes in gorgeous half-caves, half-mountain dwellings in one of the most beautiful landscapes of this earth.
Where does this stupid “Caucasians lived in caves” BS come from ?
Why don’t people actually READ THE RACISTS’s works before they talk ?
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Truth P
“When your father and sister wear black clothes, the have exactly the same color as the clothes they wear?”
Sometimes yes.They are very black.My father is the same color as his black beard and mustache.They are not brown or some variation of it.They have never been called brown by anyone ever.Not even dark brown.When people have said nice things to them about their color they say things like “you have flawless black skin” or “black onyx skin”. When people have been mean to them about their color they called them tar black.No one has ever called my sister or father anything other than black, ever.
“Also, I NEVER said anywhere in all the comments I have made in here that “we are all the same”.” I never said you did.I believe I wrote “I believe that sometimes people develop a “we are all the same” mantra because in their mind it will make us all get along better.” I was speaking in general there.Which is why I used the word people.I never put words into your mouth.
“I am very clear on I how I perceive things from what I know about the “racial norm.” I think you are clear to yourself.If all of your views were clear to me I would not have questioned you at all.I would have simply agreed or disagreed.
I have read numerous comments that you and others have made here on this topic and others.I agree with some of the things you say but not all of it.I think it’s silly that you assume I haven’t read your comments.I picked out that part of your comment because it stood out to me like a sore thumb.It is something that I have heard numerous people say,people that I happen to know actually have seen black and white people in their lifetime.
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@ Cornlia
I think this kind of statement, although honestly offered, can only do one thing, and that is to turn the topic into one of “Is Christianity a White religion,” which may be an interesting question, but will certainly fly far far away from anything having to do with melanin in the end.
@ satanforce
Agreed. If someone wants to hold to Afrocentrism as a kind of religion, they are welcome to it and should be seen in the same light as any televangelist. However, if they are attempting to bridge over into science, then the application of the “scientific method” (or lack thereof) becomes a necessary part of the critique.
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I cannot think of one advantage of having less melanin. yet i am aware that those with less of it seem to need lots of calcium enriched products. Can anyone tell me of any animal that once it reaches maturity still needs to drink milk.
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@ King I agree the topic of Christianity as white would be interesting. I also agree that it is far from the topic of melanin.
@ Kal, it helps when you live in those climates that don’t get enough sun. I do believe that we have all adapted for a reason mostly to fit into our enviroment. On a side note black wolves may have gotten thier pigment from domestic dogs. However, it was so successful that you can find black wolves all over the place.
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I am so confused here. What does Christianity have to do with melanin? I think this is getting off topic?
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@Mary
It doesn’t. I just got upset over a commenter and it mentioned my theism and he disagreed with it.
It is totally off topic and don’t worry about it.
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@adeen
so any expression of disapproval or dissatisfaction with one’s fundamental interpretation of reality is off limits uh.
“I am a very young woman, ”
its showing….
and I found you very offensive. I happen to believe in God and the Bible. My religious convictions does influence many of the decisions I make in my life and ideas.
As I would expect it to,however while it may take me a few days to round up the links to studies that show religious belief indicative of lesser intelligence and greater incidences of socio-pathologies.
Why are you one of those people who believe that Christianity is a White man’s religion?
because that’s who introduced it to us west africans while at the same time enslaving us.
I am not a sellout nor do I support White supremacy.
maybe not consciously but….BTW all I said your reference was annoying ,ya coulda have let it go but Nooooo…
I am here to speak up against institutionalized racism, White racism and prejudice among my own Black people.
good for you..
I wasn’t trying to excuse Black racism. Blacks don’t have the power to oppress anyone since we are the oppressed.
allegedly…..
How can I ever debate with my own people if they don’t even want to hear my opinion or viewpoints without attacking it or calling me ”annoying”. .
Listen brace up and grow up ,not everyone is a christian nor does everyone like to hear about it however as to being heard and your expressing your opinions – I have little control over that since this is not my blog and I can’t silence you(nor would i want to) only disagree or ignore(satanforce)
@ALL
I apologize for my delayed response but I don’t have 24/7 internet access and while I can get to the net (and love this blog ,among the many other things I like and love about the net),it is not always a priority …..
Now Back to the subject of Melanin…..
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I have a few problems with this post – one why in a post on the topic of the biochemical that is involved in skin pigmentation or lack thereof –
the first image is not say the chemical formula or structure of the molecule melanin ,but of a female model ,half naked(arms covering her ample breasts) who’s last name is “white” and she’s a “black model”……
immediately followed by picture of a male “albino” model, at least there is no coincidental play on name and color,nor any sexy pose…..
the “National Geographic’s human rainbow made up of schoolchildren from Washington, DC” is a bit more appropriate if bias in favor of the melanin-deficient…
as well as the Skin colour map of the world picture…which kinda explains why certain populations look the way they do –
As to the last part – warning ,it is advisable that you check scientific sources less you like i fall prey to – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience
while not perfect(what is) and still have questions and complaints
Melanin, Afrocentricity, and Pseudoscience
by BERNARD R. ORTIZ DE MONTELLANO
does a pretty good job of clearing up the differences between brain melanin ,skin melanin and the heredity issue…
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@ Mbeti
I hope you will not think this an intrusion, but since I was already addressing the whole religion/non-religion thing… allow me to further address your point.
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Oops. Sorry about the screwed up blockquotes.
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@MBeti
Now I see where you are coming from, thanks to King. No hurt feelings. 🙂 I never knew atheists used the expression, ”Everyone is equal in the eyes of God”. If I knew, I wouldn’t use my theism in this post.
”the “National Geographic’s human rainbow made up of schoolchildren from Washington, DC” is a bit more appropriate if bias in favor of the melanin-deficient…” ”
Well said. I agree with you on this one.
@King
Thanks for expressing MBet’s point to me.
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No problem, Adeen. I have Muslim friends who have a tendency to hedge certain phrases with “if Allah wills it.” I see it as part of their religious culture, and who they are. I don’t see it as a problem because I don’t have an expectation that they will be the same as me. Now, if they want to discuss comparative religion, then I will talk about Islam and how it compares to other faiths or non-faiths. But as far as Im concerned, saying God, Allah, or Buddah, isn’t a problem, it’s all part of diversity and inclusion. If that is who you are, then continue to be proud of who you are and what you believe. Just keep an open mind to other people’s belief and non-belief systems, as we all should.
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Just saying…
http://www.daghettotymz.com/current/welsingtheory/welsingtheory.html
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@King
If you think about it, you probably could also have “let it go.” But of course, you will proceed as you think best, but consider that there are so many people in the world who believe in some form of religion, that if you are truly going to be annoyed by belief, then you will likely spend most of your time just arguing with people over their religious beliefs.”
You raise a valid existential point.
“It’s seems an impossible task to try and rid the world of “religious thought” and then again why would you even want to? Imagine all the Buddhists, Christians, Hindu’s, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Shintoists, Judaists, Bahá’i, Mormons, Sikhs, and myriad other faith traditions. ”
The same could be said of these religions ,especially evangial christainty..
At what point do you stand and when do you just let it go.
This forum seems most appropriate to expressing and critiquing opposing ideas,unlike live talk you get a written public record as well as your own personal copy.
“Everyone is equal in God’s eyes” is a pretty innocuous expression that even Atheists sometimes use.”
I’ve never used it and it would contradict my interpretation of reality (not belief) interpretation.
The Atheists you may have heard use it where either slipping or not really atheist.
My viewpoint is we live in a universe that at its fundamental level is the same for everyone everywhere eternally.
I find science to be our current closest approach to this truth and religions as immature attempts at the same thing.
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@wakawaka
I was a long time fan of Dr.welsing’s work since the early 1990’s
and I will read the content of the page you provided ,however its now been over twenty years and I began to have serious questions and problems with her work.
One – Why no sequel ,you would think someone with a work as popular as her’s would at least write more than one book?
two – Why a series of papers ,dated even when the book was published?
in what scientific journal were these alleged papers published (or rejected ) initially?
Since her work covers so much territory I obviously have more questions and I’m sure we will all be disusing her work for quite awhile.
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@ Mbeti Shintoism is not a religion.
“On the other hand, darker skinned people are less likely to get Parkinson’s disease and, when they smoke, smoke more heavily. Melanin might affect those things.”
What I find interesting is the smoking part because where I am light skin people smoke as if there will be no tomorrow. Personally I cannot believe how Japanese people can live so long. There are chimneys that smoke less then a lot of the people here.
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Well Mbeti, you bring up some interesting points, but again my fear is that we are so far from the melanin topic with this that it would be hard to justify why we are discussing it on this thread, even tangentially.
I will transfer over to the Open Thread if you care to follow.
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@king of trouble
googled and wikipedia – yes it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinto
“On the other hand, darker skinned people are less likely to get Parkinson’s disease and, when they smoke, smoke more heavily. Melanin might affect those things.”
Maybe they smoke more heavily due to the external stress of racism….
What I find interesting is the smoking part because where I am light skin people smoke as if there will be no tomorrow. Personally I cannot believe how Japanese people can live so long. There are chimneys that smoke less then a lot of the people here.”
same with some Koreans ,as to the life expectancy maybe you could check and see if any Japanese /Korean/ asian smoker vs nonsmoker life duration studies have been done (I could but I don’t feel like it right now)
@king
but enjoyable and informative non the less,
as to the open thread invite – I have to decline ,already have too much to study online and off ,maybe another time;but I will be alert to and topic drift on religion and belief as it is closely related to Pseudoscience of which until recently melanin theorist where guilty (and still are on many basic points of evidence) of.
@wakawaka
A fourth of the way through ,very rational critique and dialogue I’ve been waiting years for ,so far pretty good…..
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@Mbeti I live in Japan and every Japanese person here will tell you it is not.
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@ Mbeti
Have you actually considered that what you label as “Science” may actually be guilty of “pseudo-science” when it comes to the explanation of and the proper function of Melanin itself?
Science like religion is equally susceptible to false and improperly substantiated claims. All you have to do to realise this is follow and research its own history.
Science is no less “belief based” than Religion is. Both can be just as fundamentally biased in maintaining their cherished beliefs.
Just something to consider…
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I know that the west calls it a religion but most people and even shinto attendants don’t believe it is one. I know the BBC site says calls it a religion, but living in this country for as long as I have I think I will stick to the natives definition of shinto not being a religion.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/shinto/ataglance/glance.shtmlt
Please read up at the site above if you would like to know more about the belief system.
Now back to melanin, I am worried by the bleaching of skin, and damaging of hair, I am worried because in these times you can have the brown removed from your eye permently.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2011/11/03/doc-says-he-can-change-brown-eyes-to-blue/
http://news.discovery.com/human/health/eye-color-change-111108.htm
It worries me a bit about the enviroment we have raise our kids in.
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Just thinking,
If the basic postulate of the melanin theory is that melanin is found all over the universe as a basic constitutive element, then it is just one element among all the others that constitute our bodies, this planet and the universe.
So I guess we are indeed elements of the universe, all of us.
I remember reading about the very very tiny difference in percentage of melanin between the lightest and the darkest people. I can’t find the info (because I don’t have that much time to look too). If someone has it somewhere…
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Your accurate and historically informed comments are refreshing Bulanik!
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Science is a method. As a method it is supposed to be used as a common ground for observation, research and agreeing or disagreeing on findings.
Anyone who tries to make it something else (like “the path to truth”) is not a scientific.
It is quite simple, in fact.
So there are other methods to look for/explore/understand the same things, but as methods change, so do findings too, or not ?!
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Some interpretations of the role of melanin deriving from Dr CW’s proposition are quite easily contradicted. Here http://www.sankofa.ch/texts/Melanin.htm for instance, the writer says this: “Your melanin can convert light energy to sound energy, that’s why an entertainer like Michael Jackson, who was a big hit back in the days. What he was doing was using his melanin to convert light energy to sound energy. Now that he is lacking melanin he hasn’t been able to really get a big hit like in the past. People with melanin are walking radios and the very dark skinned people are very sensitive to the different types of radio frequency or thought patterns that are in the environment….”
So, from we may conclude that Michael had lost all his melanin + all his talent.
And, following this approach, we may consider that Salif Keita (for instance) (http://www.salifkeita.net/en/) CANNOT display any talent… or aura, or spirituality…
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I thought that I might weigh in on my almighty “anecdotal” evidence and opinions regarding melanin theories…
Cornelia pointed out: ” Science is a method. As a method it is supposed to be used as a common ground for observation, research and agreeing or disagreeing on findings.”
~Science is surely a method of asking questions and answering them, but these days, I don’t really see the distinction between “Modern Western science” and “pseudo-scientific” beliefs or scientific experiments especially when it comes to these “findings” helping the general public.
If you get the “right group” of scientists to ask the “right types” of questions then will your answers always prove the hypothesis?
Well, I guess that depends on who you ask?
This is more along the lines of what Kwamla was mentioning when he said:
“Have you actually considered that what you label as “Science” may actually be guilty of “pseudo-science” when it comes to the explanation of and the proper function of Melanin itself?
Lets throw some “science backed” corp/organization out there (US based, of course). This is non-melanin related research:
Montasano’s GMO’s :(surely science, right? I mean, they have labs and little petri dishes and long glass tubes to make their cancer-causing plant seeds) And now they have the US Supreme court in their corner to protect their evil seedling offspring.
BIG PHARMA: They “develop” cures for ailments most Americans can’t even describe or pronounce! And they are even generous enough to include a LONG but quick list of “possible side effects” like cancer and death–you pretty much need to be Superman to not be affected by these poisons. But I mean, it’s all science, they have really long chemical compounds and they are sooooo great at their scientific methods, they don’t even need to wait the full 10 years to develop drugs anymore…they roll something out every 2-3 years…
CDC and American Heart Association: A govt back way of keeping tabs on what is infecting Americans, curing the; they make recommendations on diets (based on science, I’m sure) and they even roll out studies that mention race as a increased risk to having certain illnesses! Psuedo-science? Social science? Cult and racial programming?? (scratches head)
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Of course Sugarkiss, when science is an object of power, it is not a method anymore.
We are dealing with humans here… power always lurks somewhere around…
If and when science is used for its purpose, then findings are fallible and discussable, because that’s what they’re meant for.
If and when science becomes a path to truth, it is a tool of power.
Considering the melanin theory, we have a mish-mash of all, including rejecting science while claiming it.
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So knowing what we know about the “psuedo-science” that is melanin theory and knowing what we know about science and it’s very unfair and manipulative practices (many of these studies and intentionally misleading) and confusing, but I will give you a working example of science in play.
One of my medical texts lists a risk of having premature delivery as being African American :O Like, huh? What about being black could be scientifically proven if “race” doesn’t exist? Do you mean on a biological, genetic level, perhaps in regards to some social issues in America (not science) that that above statement could be made true? Confusing, right?
I’m just going to put this out there: In this system of white privilege, white scientists are going to generally be uninterested in studying things that concern them (make-up, hair products, drugs, diets) you name it…they are hardly concerned the the Africans they dragged over year all those years ago.
So, in knowing this, and knowing how science (especially social science) has been manipulated to educate the masses for many centuries in the States, would it be a stretch to think that WHITE PPL (scientists, MDs, etc.) would have NO interest in validating anything in regards to melanin’s attributes, especially when the social underclass of blacks HAVE SO MUCH of it??
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@ Sugarkiss
I think that most of what you are observing is a corruption of true science in order to achieve a financial or or ideological goal. People do use the never of science as a way to enrich themselves, but is so doing, they are violating the principles of science by purposely I setting bias into the process.
However, this doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as “Real Science” or that it cannot be distinguished from pseudo science. The problem is that science is only a tool that can be either used properly or misused. But it’s Important for people to realize that even under the best of circumstances, science can be sometimes be wrong about something, because it is an ongoing process of discovery.
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@ Sugarkiss
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So, from we may conclude that Michael had lost all his melanin + all his talent.
And, following this approach, we may consider that Salif Keita (for instance) (http://www.salifkeita.net/en/) CANNOT display any talent… or aura, or spirituality…
~Now, if melanin is down to cellular level, the level of the DNA and all of it’s components, I do not think a superficial change would change all that.
And DNA and all of it’s millions of possibilities at conception, if your parents are heavily melanated, then YOU WILL BE TOO. Even if your skin isn’t dark.
I don’t understand what’s so hard to believe about a group of ppl having increased features, or enhanced environmental coping mechanisms because of the AMOUNT of melanin in their skin? Why do they have so much rhythm? Why the natural musical inclination? Why the enhanced spiritual connection to God or the Universe, or the Source? (BTW I have seen these mechanisms, capabilities, whatever, up close and personal)
If and when science is used for its purpose, then findings are fallible and discussable, because that’s what they’re meant for.
If and when science becomes a path to truth, it is a tool of power.
~Who’s truths? Does it seem totally naturally occurring that black scientists and doctors want to study Huemans? Now that LAW permits them to? Why do you think social science and media works soooo hard to keep their “science”‘ irrefutable? In this country, you can’t even be a religious or spiritual scientist. Why is that?
Why do so many white ppl demand a SCIENTIFIC answer to social problems, especially racially motivated ones? Why is it so hard for them to put science and spirit together? Or own up to their part in keeping this privilege society in place? Why do they insist on using statistics and other ambiguous information when they KNOW three critically thinking brain cells would give them the answers?
Melanin, whether it be universal truth, pseudoscience, the truth, whatever, it’s a testament to the ferocity the white, Western science community will go to bury it. Pro Black does not mean, anti-white or anybody else…
im just sayin’
SK
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@KIng,
I think that is referring to “statistical risk” not biological risk. Racists confuse those two all the time, but there is still a actuarial risk that can be calculated. it doesn’t take into account many details of cause and effect, but just gives you numbers extrapolated directly from outcome percentages.
I know this, but my question is, why do the authors feel it’s necessary to include it under a list of other FACTUAL, biological evidence? And in which country would this be true? Everywhere? Or just in the States? Europe? Japan, the Caribbean?
You catch my drift I think. The US medical industry has created a bubble for themselves. And to insert Asian American, Mexican, etc into teaching text with no SOCIAL reference to racism, classicm, is VERY irresponsible. But not surprising.
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Sugarkiss, when I read this, I think: “the racists have won the battle”
These are the very racist stereotypes conveyed about “blacks”.
I think there is a great need for mind-opening and traveling here (and the latter is not easy, finance-wise). But the internet can help. You have access to most cultures now AND can therefore notice that all cultures
“have rhythm”
“have A natural musical inclination”
“have AN enhanced spiritual connection to “”””””God””””””” and the Universe”….
I cannot believe what I am reading here. Incredible. You might as well quote the old-time racists, and that will do it.
Sugarkiss, the fact that the church and state in Western Europe REPRESSED the various achievements and capacities you quote above doesn’t mean they didn’t or don’t exist ! Saying that is like negating their existence, which is equivalent the major negation Europeans practiced about Africa in particular.
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@ Cornelia, do you live in the States?
~This is a big pill to swallow, but as I’ve said before, it’s anecdotal for me, because it’s based off of my personal experiences in the US. Those questions aren’t just coming from me, but are consciously and subconsciously asked through conversation with other white ppl and African immigrants, etc. and reiterated in American mass Media.
For example, I had a white women come up to me and say “I’m just an old white woman with no rhythm. Can you show me how to dance?”
~She’s a racist, I suppose.
Or another personal experience. While working, a white co worker spoke of an experience that happened to her. She was talking about issues she was having with her autistic son and another Nigerian co worker of mine took her into a room and prayed with her. Prayed for guidance, prayed for strength for this NEW white, employee and her family.
Well, my white co-worker was offended by it. In all my years, I just couldn’t understand why she would be, but the other white co-workers understood, one who used to be a nun. I had to explain why she should not be, reasons that are too long to go into here. Unusual to you, no?
I have also had another experience where a patient was dying and a very spiritually connected Nigerian nurse (that is my descr not hers) was so worried that this woman would pass away (she was really on death’s bed) and prayed for her and saved her life on the spot!
I think there is a great need for mind-opening and traveling here (and the latter is not easy, finance-wise). But the internet can help. You have access to most cultures now AND can therefore notice that all cultures
“have rhythm”
“have A natural musical inclination”
“have AN enhanced spiritual connection to “”””””God””””””” and the Universe”…
I’ve never stated this wasn’t true. Ever. And the forced cultural clash that slave descendants and Euro descendents have experience in America has BIRTHED these stereotypes or generalizations. They were not pulled from thin air. I’m not here to say one way is the only way. In fact, I picked those particular examples because they are generally shared views between both white and blacks in the States.
I am not trying to mimic the oppressor class’s “racist” views, but to just put that under the same even umbrella and ignore the effect of blacks on music, sports, standards of beauty, especially, world wide, in the name of not sounding racist is naive, in my opinion.
And I do respect all opinions, etc and find your commentary interesting and agreeable.
But, sometimes, the way I arrive at my opinions and the way that other American blacks are easily able to understand what I mean, is because they themselves have lived it, and it is not a “social science” I take lightly. I do not offer explanation, just observation, as scientists do. ( or supposed to)
So, the bigger issue with melanin theory in general, is that perhaps it DOES transcend the majority, “conventional science.” And like everything else scientific, it’s a medium of understanding this physical world; Modern science can either support it, refute it, but whatever the cause, what will be, will still be.
SK
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Once you take the “My pet theory transcends conventional science” approach, there is absolutely no defense against White scientific racists making the same kind of argument and bringing their own anecdotal wisdom to the table. Either we ask for proof when people make race claims, or we just take people’s own life experiences or hopeful wishes as truth.
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Sugarkiss… you know, I just would like to laugh this away, but… it is too serious an issue to be laughed away.
Guess what, my experience is multiple and contradicts yours.
I live in the US. Now. I am not American. I lived abroad before, and I also lived in the US some years ago (South Carolina, when I first arrived there, in 1988, my first impression on campus in August as students were arriving was that segregation was not over). And I left it because I couldn’t stand the ambiant racism and I “could” leave it, I had no obligation to stay.
I have been around Africans for many many years, first as a friend and then as a family member.
Trust me, Sugarkiss, all this “got rhythm” BS is what it is… BS. Only people who believe in race believe in it.
I learnt to dance by dancing, after I reached my 17th birthday. According to racist logic (which is no logic at all because it is based on nothing), I *shouldn’t* have been able to dance. because I’m so-called “white”. Hey, but it didn’t work the way it was supposed to. I could dance, and what’s worse, quite well. Africans would ask me “where did you learn to dance like this ?” To which I would reply: “I didn’t learn, I danced, like you, I guess.” That’s one way of learning, isn’t it ?
In the US, back in 1992, there was an “African festival” on campus, so I and my many international friends (from all continents), among which Africans (from Comoros, Mozambique, Angola, South Africa, Ghana, Nigeria, Congo, Cameroon, Mali, Cabo Verde, Sao Tome,…) went there. It so happened that I was the one with the biggest collection of tapes and CDs of danceable music from all over (I organized parties at my house and was the DJ, on tapes, then). So I brought some and I offered the African-American DJ to listen to some and play them if he wanted to. He listen to a few tracks (Soukouss mostly, as it was “in” then) and handed them back to me saying “that’s weird”.
It was supposed to be an African festival, but African music was deemed “weird”.
A Malian friend who was a student at a private college in the vicinity (one of the few African girls on campus) was asked to help African-American girls to “dress African” for an African party. And she knew how to dress, Malian women have these most gorgeous dresses and head-dresses… She showed them some ways to do the head-dresses, and guess what ? They were “not African enough”, “not the way they should be”. She was mad and left them at their devices.
One last thing: the Cabo Verde, Angola, Sao Tome, Mozambique and Congo guys loved to dance with me because I was the only one who knew how to dance the dances from their countries (because there were no women from their countries). And a Congolese guy who was already quite old by campus standards asked me once “where did you learn to dance my village dance so well ?” Apparently Soukouss incorporated a village dance that I mastered particularly well…
So please… please… don’t let racial thinking blind you like this. “Whites” in the US are probably brought up thinking “they can’t dance” because “they are not black”. So they think they can’t. And if they do, they’ll be told “they want to be black”, or want to “act black”, or whatever. When a “white” person can do something that is supposedly a “black thing”, there are all kinds of reactions, aren’t there ? Some “whites” are self-confused because of that.
Even seemingly “positive” things can be the most racist ones.
And acceptance of others, for some people, is mostly based on what you “accept” as being “theirs”. At least in the US. It’s still true today, my children tell me. They have a multiple experience too, now. If they fit in the box, it’s okay, if they don’t, hmmm, their is a problem. They have been able to notice that peculiarity of American culture.
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King …
Cosign^^ definitely.
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Oh, and Sugarkiss… I haven’t been dancing so little than since I married my African husband. He doesn’t dance. Only Zouk, very seldom. I used to go dancing every Saturday. Now, when I dance with his sisters and other women in the family (often in the kitchen while cooking stuff as it lasts for hours), he says we “dance too strongly”.
And I have had the unfortunate experience of dancing with “black men” who couldn’t dance (even though they thought they could).
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Hey no pb, my pleasure. And for those who wouldn’t know what we are talking about, here is my personal favorite of all times ! I don’t know how many times I have danced on this, but it’s more than I have listened to Purple Rain the album…
Yondo Sister ! (And I think she is an albino !)
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The dancers on the lawn seem to be adding more recent stuff…. ^
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Ill be checking both these youtubes out later
Cornlia, I have gone into deep discusion of showing how the cultures that came from below the Sahara, developed and why the elements they put together have the affect they do….its culture
Now, I respect what you are saying if you say you can dance, I can too, and, I have a whole whole lot of rhythm
But there are definitive , quantifiable properties to the Afro diasporic cultures, and, either you are immersed in them or not, and it doesnt matter what color, plenty of black people cant dance and shouldnt be expected, but, these cultures came out of Afro diasporic culture and are unique to themselves
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@ Cornelia
To say that a group of ppl are more inclined to do something naturally does not mean I am shitting on everyone else know has mastered whatever “thing” I am speaking of.
You left American due to it’s racism, that’s awesome I applaud your ability to do that.
But I am still here and these are my experiences. Africa is a big place, and my exp. are not meant to negate your “contradictory” experience, present it as better than, or any of that. But please don’t explain away my interactions regarding these attributes since you have traveled the world and I have not. I have learned from your experiences here. As with most ppl who share. Thanks for that.
Honestly, we could compare and contrast anecdotal experiences for the rest of the night, but I don’t think it would add any substance to the issue of melanin. I see it as a choice to focus time and energy in the exploration, critically, or otherwise to it’s “validity” or whatever that means.
I also think a lot of our belief systems have to do with cultural differences as well. And the uniqueness of culture in itself is something I don’t want to taint with stereotypes. It’s bad enough in the states that those (negative) stereotypes follow us EVERYWHERE we go.
Have I ever taken dancing lessons? No, never, but rhythm is something that is just, in me–in my kids, my mother, my father–I can’t describe it. It’s very easy to fall into step with whomever. I have found this to be true with 9/10 black ppl I have met over my life. And not so much with whites. So that perception shapes an aspect of my reality, as I’m sure your experience does yours.
@ King,
I understand your statement and you’re right. Which is why I believe religion is a convenient ‘truth” where scientific claims fall short.
“Either we ask for proof when people make race claims, or we just take people’s own life experiences or hopeful wishes as truth.”
While I certainly learn more from personal exp of others, “we ask for proof when people make race claims” is my issue.
Who are we asking? Race related science is still very much embedded in our medicine and medical practices in the US. It’s like a cancer, imo. Where do we begin? They are still hiding the contributions of blacks to modern medicine! Still! Why the impulsive need to claim ownership in a field that is supposed to help everyone?
Who are the “they” that I should blindly trust in the name of science?
Who’s responsible for keeping the “scientists” honest these days?
That is all I mean, really when I argue the need for theories like the melanin theory. It should all be explored, imo.
And Blacks in this country have been “blindly trusting” ppl in power to an obvious fault. So in saying that, I trust very little, these days, and that does transcend just science.
I don’t believe that science and spirit are separate.
@Bulanik
I’ve seen those moves in action at clubs and some black strip clubs, lol. It’s really fun to do, feels spontaneous!
But I wonder, is it group consciousness or dance lessons?
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Cornlia, there is also a differance from learning a dance and really understanding the depth and spirituality behind it
I have kept trying to implicate that drumming and dancing are just a gateway into a deeper spiritual , not religious, state,that these cultures brought us, and, I think there is a profound body of knowledge underneath, that, if not melanin , is certainly the gift and genius of those cultures that they brought to the world
I only weighed in on this based the cultural statements, and, while the extreme claims of melanin power might not ring true, there is something that I am willing to learn about, and have an open mind to the posibilities…I am a spectator to this argument
but, white people dont dance as well doing afro diasporic cultures because generaly they arnt culturaly immersed to be able to dance, and of course those that do immerse themselves , can pick up something, but, it is a force much deeper than just learning the popular dances…very deep, profound and secularly spiritual,and that is something to humbly understand (not that you arnt humble)
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@ B.R.
You understand me. Completely. My other comment is moderation, so hopefully it will show up soon.
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@ Cornelia
To say that a group of ppl are more inclined to do something naturally does not mean I am crapping on everyone else know has mastered whatever “thing” I am speaking of.
You left American due to it’s racism, that’s awesome I applaud your ability to do that.
But I am still here and these are my experiences. Africa is a big place, and my exp. are not meant to negate your “contradictory” experience, present it as better than, or any of that. But please don’t explain away my interactions regarding these attributes since you have traveled the world and I have not. I have learned from your experiences here. As with most ppl who share. Thanks for that.
Honestly, we could compare and contrast anecdotal experiences for the rest of the night, but I don’t think it would add any substance to the issue of melanin. I see it as a choice to focus time and energy in the exploration, critically, or otherwise to it’s “validity” or whatever that means.
I also think a lot of our belief systems have to do with cultural differences as well. And the uniqueness of culture in itself is something I don’t want to taint with stereotypes. It’s bad enough in the states that those (negative) stereotypes follow us EVERYWHERE we go.
Have I ever taken dancing lessons? No, never, but rhythm is something that is just, in me–in my kids, my mother, my father–I can’t describe it. It’s very easy to fall into step with whomever. I have found this to be true with 9/10 black ppl I have met over my life. And not so much with whites. So that perception shapes an aspect of my reality, as I’m sure your experience does yours.
@ King,
I understand your statement and you’re right. Which is why I believe religion is a convenient ‘truth” where scientific claims fall short.
“Either we ask for proof when people make race claims, or we just take people’s own life experiences or hopeful wishes as truth.”
While I certainly learn more from personal exp of others, “we ask for proof when people make race claims” is my issue.
Who are we asking? Race related science is still very much embedded in our medicine and medical practices in the US. It’s like a cancer, imo. Where do we begin? They are still hiding the contributions of blacks to modern medicine! Still! Why the impulsive need to claim ownership in a field that is supposed to help everyone?
Who are the “they” that I should blindly trust in the name of science?
Who’s responsible for keeping the “scientists” honest these days?
That is all I mean, really when I argue the need for theories like the melanin theory. It should all be explored, imo.
And Blacks in this country have been “blindly trusting” ppl in power to an obvious fault. So in saying that, I trust very little, these days, and that does transcend just science.
I don’t believe that science and spirit are separate.
@Bulanik
I’ve seen those moves in action at clubs and some black strip clubs, lol. It’s really fun to do, feels spontaneous!
But I wonder, is it group consciousness or dance lessons?
(abagond I fixed the issue, you can delete the moderated post 🙂 )
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For sure, Sugarkiss, we have talked alot on here about properties of the Europeans, of their scientific aproaches, their concepts of conquering, there do seem to have properties about the European aproaches, their “being”
By the same token, these Afro diasporic cultural properties that go into the deeper aspects have incredible insights into letting go of the cumbersome thinking brain and can center you and put you direcetly in touch with your soul and intuition, your spirit, the same thing that scientists are now saying that are really controling our being instead of our brains
Knowing that, I would make a beeline to try to immerse myself in these cultures to truly find that spiritual , the real spiritual, path to my “soul”
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@ B.R.
Agreed, again.
😉
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Sugarkiss, I work with incredible samba dancers who never had a dance lesson in their lives, it came from the streets, the culture, passed down generation to generation in an oral tradition, in the Americas , survived the most sufocation and represion as could be imagined but came forth to dominate all the popular cultures…too bad the prejudice against these cultures never left and we all werent atuned to those deeper spiritual aspects
Europeans , to be sure have their dances, nothing to put those down, and ballet is the pintical of European dance, I would never put that down, but, the whole concept of how the Europeans aproach their music and dance is very differant…plauged by religious dogmas that prevent pelvic contractions and , in the classica musics and ballet, the penchant for plotting out every bar and step, to fit into the composors and cheorographers vision..where the Afro diasporic concepts, when in thier more pure form, have foundation grooves and steps and then allow for self expresion on top, they allow for inner intuition and spirit to flow instead of interpreting the score and choreography .
I think in the European concepts, religions are the place where they “pray” , to let go and be in touch with a higher being…but so full of dogmas, constraints, dos and donts…yes, their are African religios rites that have their own dogmas, but these concepts are much deeper than the religios rites, the African religious rites used this force and power to integrate into their rites, but , it exists outside of those rites also…in a big way
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@ Bulanik,
Yes, really. When ppl break out and start dancing at parties, etc. That hip and chest motion is very natural, that is why I was surprised that those moves were something I had seen and done before!
And to answer your last question. Not I. I don’t know whey ppl keep equating a natural inclination to do certain things (as a group) as a refusal to believe anyone else can do it.
That was never my intention to convey to all of you following the discussion.
When B.R. spoke of drums some other post he was getting ridiculed for making the comparison, I think it had to do with war drumming and African soldiers but I knew exactly what he was talking about.
Why? Don’t know–another one of those things than words can’t quite explain without offending some.
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If that is what you get out of all I have been saying, Bulanik , I understand, you just dont get it…but that is ok, I saw your ridiculous statement about a Billie Holiday interpretaion of a George Gershin tune, and, yeah,you really dont get it, you sure dont get jazz,
I mean anyone who has dealt with Afro diasporic dances knows there are foundation steps and foundation grooves, I said that above…I know, you are not aware of these things
Sugarkiss, I dont know if I ever mentioned war drumming, except that it was also one of the ways people used this force, but, I have been ridiculed for expressing in great detail and clarity the properties and concepts that comes from this great body of knowledge
of course then, Im riduculed for coming off arrogant…but, Bulanik has demonstated over and over , that she doesnt have a clue to what Im talking about
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Sugarakiss, what I can say also is that, sometime a long long time ago, a people put together two rhythms, cross rhythms, looped it back on itself and worked into dupel /triple meter, and had dance moves to go along with it, with total body immersion, and these concepts were unique to these people and it covers most of Africa below the Sahara…which exact area it imminated first is something that has to be discovered…
and, it so happens that there are similar physical charactoristics and a high melanin content is one of those charactoristics…for sure there are other people with melanin high counts that dont have these cultral charactoristics, like in New Guinea, but, they were a migration out of Africa….like I said,it is something that I am open to,for sure, these cultural concepts are bonded by some physical similarities even if there are huge genetic differances..yes, it could be just weather adaptation, but, it also could be something else…like I said, Im open to finding out…I certainly recognise the spiritual depth and great body of cultural knowledge going on
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@ B.R. and all
Once again your explanations are completely understood. The culture, or sub-culture of dance and song for blacks in the US literally erupted in moderns times with very little or no knowledge of the history that you speak of. And that why I always speak to connection unexplained by science.
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Those moves happen in lots of other places. I feel the moves are absolutely natural to the music, and are one. It’s hard to convey with words.
But that’s just me.
I agree. It’s not just you. lol.
Are we to think (or merely assume) then, that African cultural concepts are totally free and flowing and without dogma or constraint simply because of pelvic movement?
Huh?
No, not saying that I don’t think. What I am saying is that those videos have been viewed by me only today and none of those movements are new to me as I Black American with very distant cultural ties to modern day Africa.
That is what I’m saying. And I’m also saying that I am not interested in looking for scientific way of explaining why that is because I don’t think one exists in the body of Western science that only knows how to put things in boxes. I don’t know if it’s brain synapses or what, even in English, I’m not sure ppl understand what I’m saying without being personally offended or “othering” themselves. (And I don’t mean that on this blog, I mean in 3D life).
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@ B.R.
“Sugarkiss, I dont know if I ever mentioned war drumming, except that it was also one of the ways people used this force, but, I have been ridiculed for expressing in great detail and clarity the properties and concepts that comes from this great body of knowledge”
~ You were speaking of a rhythm that you recognized in the drumming when someone mentioned Africans in South America, and you didn’t understand where it came from (the beat) or something like that but made the connection.. (fuzzy memory, sorry)
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You hit it on the head, Sugarkiss, all of these organised religions and Western and Eastern thinking arnt going to recognise or admit to this great body of knowledge and genius, which, as I said, the drumming and dancing is just the gateway to the deeper immersion into the soul and inner being
Our cultures have regulated it to entertainment..it is not recognised for the spiritual force and depth that it really represents (A Love Supreme is as close as we are going to get), yes, we say someone has “soul”, “soulful” , “has the feeling(even James Brown had a cut “I got the feeling…”)”, but, the real force and depth and spiritual awakening is not something that is recognised because the slavery tried to destroy it and suffocate it, Arab slave trade also, but, Western slave trade was worse at it, America maybe the worst of all with its banning of any kind of drumming and dancing…yet, look how this force ended up dominating our popular cultures….imagine if we , on a collective conciousness leval, were able to integrate these spiritual (not religios rites) aspects into our daily lives
I am in humble, and I mean on my knees humble, awe at the power, depth, and genius that this great body of knowledge has bought to all of us in this world, who want to plug into it, even on a simple entertainment leval…and, I try to immerse myself everyday into this force on a daily basis….the benafits are extremly real and powerful for anyone who will (although Im sure there are lots of people on this board who dont really detect a spiritual force coming from me…then again I spent 8 years in New York…that certainly hides my spiritual connections)
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“Sugarkiss,
Once again your explanations are completely understood. The culture, or sub-culture of dance and song for blacks in the US literally erupted in moderns times with very little or no knowledge of the history that you speak of. And that why I always speak to connection unexplained by science.”
Linda says,
Why do you believe this history was lost… it was never lost for any African-descended society… it was reformed and presented in a different way but never lost…that’s why when Americans hear reggae, you can instinctively pick out the beat to move to (even if you don’t know the proper dance moves)
I’ve also seen Polynesians instinctively move from the hip to reggae as well … I think if people come from cultures where the drums / bass are predominate factors in the music, they will have a feel/ connection to the music.
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@ BR
I totally agree with that:
“But there are definitive , quantifiable properties to the Afro diasporic cultures, and, either you are immersed in them or not, and it doesnt matter what color, plenty of black people cant dance and shouldnt be expected, but, these cultures came out of Afro diasporic culture and are unique to themselves”
It can and is outside of the realm of “race”, that is basically all I am *trying* to say 😉
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Interesting conversation everyone, I just scanned through it and will be coming back when I have time. Peace.
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Linda, I , not too long ago, looked at a number of polyneisian youtubes, and, I always wondered about their use of hips contractions, and it is gorgeous, and good observation, but, they have sections, they go along , and then after a certain number of bars ( they dont think in bars) they change the aproach, sometimes stop and then go…in a big part of the Afro diasporic , more leaning to the pure aproach, the call responce groove doesnt change, it is flowing and flowing , not like native Americans who have kind of like a flow on the one, one one , they dont loop back into pollyrhtyms,that is part of the turning off the thinking brain and letting the intuition take over in the Afro diasporic grooves….not that there arnt African concepts that do have changes, and dont use drums like the Masai, too, besides the concepts Im talking about, Africa has a huge amount of other cultures, and that there are cultures like South India,that have grooves too, then again, they have some Igbo roots in their language, why wouldnt some of those concepts float over on the migration?
Many Afro diasporic cultures , in the Americas have also integrated elements of Western music and have changes in the groove, a B sections that change the feeling of the groove, but there are also great examples of grooves that keep going, samba, gua gua co, merenge, funk,calypso, hip hop, disco, jazz swing when its not over arranged etc etc the concepts can vary in purity, which doesnt mean the mixtures are anything less, they just change the paramaters, and I want to know what the original Afro concepts are, to get the fullest benafits as can be gotten out of them…if I want to get the benafits of executing dazzling mathamatical combinations and odd timed beats based on phrases, I will go back to tablas..which I hurt my back in the sitting position which curtailed my tabla aspirations
what I have found is that, even if other cultures do have some similarities, there is something about the total integration of the dance and drumming in the below the Sahara black Afro diasporic concepts that are unique
Cornlia, it is an interesting discusion…Id like to see your dancing
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Actualy, Bulanik, Im sorry if I implied you dont get what Im talking about…you traveled to Africa, you have trained as a dancer and you have learned some African dances…
you are just busting my chops and I always have to defend myself from your busting
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Also, I never said Im an expert on African religious rites, I do know candomble, and know how it is very similar to voodoo and santera,and the similarities to the West African mother, in grooves, dance moves and possecian and dieties and I work with condomble dancers and beleive me, when we hit the groove and its just the dancing and drums in a 6/8 Barra Vento, we are in a deep zone of inner intuition and our thinking brains are turned off, it is one of the Brazilian grooves that is closest to its African heritage and free of Western concepts, and, it is a profound state
but, I dont claim to be an expert and know every tribe and culture in Africa, Ive done extensive listening to traditional folklorico drumming, but, my expertice is jazz, funk, hip hop, gua gua co,rumba, samba, maracatu, coco, mange beat etc and the dances that go with them and how they tie in with the African roots and dances
having to deal with executing these grooves and listening to the African traditional drumming, gives me great insights into these developements…for example, I can hear cascara in various West African drumming traditions
Im not saying I could sit in with various African cultural traditions and know exactly what to do, but I sure have played with top musicians from jazz, samba, coco, funk,clave etc and this would help me to learn any other traditions that I wanted to…you really have to do some work to get any one specific groove so , its not automatic
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hahahaha thank you Cornlia and Sugarkiss for bringing in culture and dancing…Im usualy chided for only talking about that, you all just gave me liscence to run wild ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hahaha
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hi
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http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000649/
I look like a young version of Paul Sorvino with the same skin tone. That used to bother me. But now I look at it as more protection from the sum.
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Bulanik…. I will attempt to do that
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@Kwamla
“@ Mbeti
Have you actually considered that what you label as “Science” may actually be guilty of “pseudo-science” when it comes to the explanation of and the proper function of Melanin itself?
Science like religion is equally susceptible to false and improperly substantiated claims. All you have to do to realise this is follow and research its own history.
Science is no less “belief based” than Religion is. Both can be just as fundamentally biased in maintaining their cherished beliefs.
Just something to consider…”
So what is the universal objective standard or is there one?
Many here have commented on how bias they (white-european) have been and continue to be in with science ,I say just because ,that does not mean we should be or at this time we (black african ,others not white european) can afford to be.
So science is not the way to the truth? then whats the point of an objective standard or proving what you say based on evidence?
My experience is that science and logic are the only things that provide truth in this very short and difficult life ,however we are limited in our ability to acquire the truth and some of us would prefer most of us not acquire it (more for them) and then there are those who prefer to dream.
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@ Mbeti
“…My experience is that science and logic are the only things that provide truth in this very short and difficult life…”
If this where true we could easily solve ALL the worlds problems!
Answer this: Do you believe science and logic will eventually find a truthful explanation and resolution to Racism?
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@kwamla
you said
“If this where true we could easily solve ALL the worlds problems!”
if its false then on what basis do you interpret things as true or false?
And we will solve all the worlds problems ,it may not be in your or my lifetime but it will happen otherwise whats the point?
“Answer this: Do you believe science and logic will eventually find a truthful explanation and resolution to Racism?”
Of course it should,racism is one of the worlds problems.
What gets me is how pessimistic and negative people are in the face of our overwhelming power and wealth.
I Could provide example after example not just in my own life but everyone everywhere on this planet ,is getting smarter,wealthier etc due to what force again – why science reason – but most people (my population experience and sampling may be bias by the way) ah hell naa..if you don’t believe in my specific version of the big giant all powerful invisible dude ,I’ll kill ya – just like he told me not to unless he did…
members of my species these days..
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I’m late for the thread and I might repeat something that’s already said.
Some whites have so little melanin you can clearly see blue veins through their skin.
I swear this is true (at least for me). It’s probably where the whole “blue blood” thing comes from (since aristocrats never tanned).
The thing is that melanin is not equally distributed in your skin, eyes and hair. There are people who have much of it in some places and not the others. For example, I am extremely pale when it comes to skin but my hair is almost black and my eyes are dark. There are many other examples.
When it comes to the blue eye theory – the thing is that it’s a mutation, and as a mutation, it can appear anywhere, anytime. But for it to spread and continue to future generations, it needs to be passed on genetically. Meaning, the carriers need to have children. Meaning, they need to survive to the sexually mature age and/or find a mate.
Light eyes are more sensitive to sun so my guess they don’t provide evolutionary advantage in equatorial climate (though I can’t see them providing evolutionary advantage in the polar climate either – snow tends to “glow” and hurt eyes so much).
When it comes to racial mixing and a potential danger to lose certain phenotypes due to certain genes being more dominant: actually, true “race” mixing will ensure that all of the human rainbow stays intact. If all (or most) people on Earth are racially mixed, it means they will all carry many different genes (for pale skin, dark skin, blue eyes, dark eyes, kinky hair, straight hair, red hair, etc.) because they have ancestors of many different phenotypes.
Recessive genes (such as red hair, etc. – anything that is seen as “endangered” by racial mixing) have much more chances of appearing if BOTH parents are carriers. So if both parents have diverse ancestry (and ancestors of many different phenotypes) their children have a chance to have a phenotype dictated by recessive genes.
The reason we don’t see it today is that people are (still?) not particularly “racially” mixed as a whole, so someone with, say, a white parent and a black parent don’t have really “racially” diverse background. Chances are, the white parent doesn’t have (m)any non-white ancestors, and same goes with the black parent (even with the history of slavery, etc. the mixing is not enough). In these circumstances, chances are that not both parents are carriers of the recessive genes. If humans ever get “racially” mixed on a global scale, this problem will go away, I believe.
(I use “race” in parentheses because I do believe it’s a social construct and not a biological fact – however, for the purpose of this comment, repeatedly writing “more melanin” or another description would make the comment unnecessarily complicated. Plus, the idea of “racial mixing” is well known and understandable to most people, so I went with it).
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Hi there Mira,Long time no see…
“Some whites have so little melanin you can clearly see blue veins through their skin.
I swear this is true (at least for me). It’s probably where the whole “blue blood” thing comes from (since aristocrats never tanned).
The thing is that melanin is not equally distributed in your skin, eyes and hair. There are people who have much of it in some places and not the others. For example, I am extremely pale when it comes to skin but my hair is almost black and my eyes are dark. There are many other examples.”
No need to swear good sir ,just provide current scientific evidence!
(as to the white skin,black hair,black iris’s I’ve often wondered why even though a majority of “white” people have this “mixture” of melanin distribution within their phenotype they only identify with their skin whiteness,like skin head’s who cut off all their – in many cases black or brown hair and only identify with their skin color.)
………
Eye color is a polygenic phenotypic character determined by two distinct factors: the pigmentation of the eye’s iris[1][2] and the frequency-dependence of the scattering of light by the turbid medium in the stroma of the iris.[3]
In humans, the pigmentation of the iris varies from light brown to black, depending on the concentration of melanin in the iris pigment epithelium (located on the back of the iris), the melanin content within the iris stroma (located at the front of the iris), and the cellular density of the stroma.[4] The appearance of blue, green, as well as hazel eyes results from the Rayleigh scattering of light in the stroma, a phenomenon similar to that which accounts for the blueness of the sky. Neither blue nor green pigments are ever present in the human iris or ocular fluid.[3][5] Eye color is thus an instance of structural color and varies depending on the lighting conditions, especially for lighter-colored eyes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color
…………
The melanin in the eyes and ears is synthesized by the same mechanism as skin melanin and the amounts do correlate with skin color. Eye color does seem to influence reaction times. Worthy (1974) found that dark-eyed individuals performed better at “reactive activities,” whereas light-eyed people were superior at “self-paced” activities. Several studies (Hale, et al. 1980; Landers et al., 1976;Tedford et al., 1978) showed that there was a correlation between dark eyes and faster reaction times in response to both visual and auditory stimuli, but none of the investigators were able to offer a satisfactory explanation for their findings (Robins, 1991). Albinos have diminished amounts of melanin in the inner ear and show evidence of auditory abnormalities (Garber et al., 1982; Creel et al., 1980).
There is no correlation between the number of melanocytes and racial pigmentation; whites, negroids, and even albinos have the same distribution of melanocytes.Racial skin color differences are not due to differences in the number of melanocytes,but to the amount and density of melanin manufactured within them (Robins,1991).
excerpts from Melanin, Afrocentricity, and Pseudoscience
by Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano
………
“(I use “race” in parentheses because I do believe it’s a social construct and not a biological fact – however, for the purpose of this comment, repeatedly writing “more melanin” or another description would make the comment unnecessarily complicated. Plus, the idea of “racial mixing” is well known and understandable to most people, so I went with it).”
……..
‘Anthropologists have labored long and hard to refute the existence of biological races. We are all Homo sapiens sapiens.
Latter (1980) compared the variation in 18 polymorphic gene loci in 180 populations representing the major racial groups and found that 84% of the total genetic diversity of humankind is due to differences between individuals belonging to the same tribe or nation, while only 10% of the total diversity occurs between “racial” groups.
This is only slightly more than the 6% difference between groups in East and West Africa. Lewontin (1972) came to the same conclusion and his data agree quite well with Latter’s. However, “social” races
exist and the public believes that they are biologic.
excerpt from Melanin, Afrocentricity, and Pseudoscience
by Bernard R. Ortiz De Montellano
……
That’s a fundamental communication problem – trying to use current more accurate scientific definitions and explanations and risk losing a large part of your “audience” through unfamiliarity and misunderstanding OR using familiar but outmoded and erroneous concepts to explain the topic being discussed.
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Hello. I just wanted to mention that big white area in Canada. Most of the Original peoples are dark skinned, and the Iqaluit (Eskimo) are as well, as are the Originals in North East Russia. The appearance of paleness is a relatively recent event in the human time line. PS love your work!!!
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@Tracey.
I recently listened to a French radio podcast with a dermatologist who explained that the northern people diet compensates for the lack of vitamin D (among other things) that dark skin in cold and climate where you have to cover yourself in clothes provokes. The area of their face is enough to add to the amount of vitamin D that is not produced by the mostly fish/meat diet. Said the dermatologist.
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Interesting topic. It seemed to wind all over the place with Mbeti and Cornelia providing the most relevance to the topic. Melanin is an important body chemical, but no one of the most critical else albinos wouldn’t survive. It also isn’t conscious or self-aware anymore than any other chemical in the body. Expecting science to research along those lines is absurd – extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
My personal case is that I am white, of mostly central European extract. When not in the sun my skin is a lightish brown. When in the sun however I quickly darken many shades without any effort and end up darker than many African-Americans I know. My office job has kept me on the lighter side as I don’t have the time to spend in the sun these days. My point being that the amount of melanin in my skin varies considerably without changing anything else about me. It certainly has no powers other than perhaps making me more attractive to some women who like tall, dark, etc.
As far as dance and music are concerned, these are in my experience cultural phenomena. The white culture in America is a descendent of the Puritan ethic, in which dance and music were considered undesirable. Sad, but that was part of their belief. I know many great white dancers and poor black dancers, with the commonality in each group being upbringing, interest, and talent. That talent doesn’t appear to me to have any racial component. I personally am a crappy dancer due to my upbringing and inherent reluctance as a result to learn and let loose. It isn’t because I don’t feel a connection to the music – of whatever source.
Finally, I don’t know where the silly notion of whites being afraid of being wiped out by people with more melanin, or being jealous of people with darker skin came from. I’ve never given that the slightest thought and my GFs ranged from very light to dark brown. Only two “types” I’ve never been with – very black Africans and very light “gingers”. This has been an issue of opportunity not lack of desire as when I was still dating I didn’t know anyone of either skin type. Where I live I know couples of every conceivable mixture of “races”. Nobody cares. Some friends of ours from Jamaica had a daughter at the same time as we did, and they are good friends yet a study in skin color contrast – one very dark and the other very light. Everyone gets along. The girls when little were both fascinated by the difference in skin tone without the adults ever getting involved.
Will science find a cure for racism? I know education will, on all sides. Just don’t ask for a timetable. Things like the Boston Marathon bombings seem to result in regression among some people of every race.
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@joshua
“Finally, I don’t know where the silly notion of whites being afraid of being wiped out by people with more melanin, or being jealous of people with darker skin came from. ”
where did you come by these claims or assertions.
Remember its not what you or I think or feel its what is the evidence for said hypothesis or what evidence refutes it.
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I’d like to make a few observations of my own:
@ Legion: That Dr Cress Welsing’s thoery is “stupid” is your own stupid opinion which is based on ?…Well I guess I would say, putting it politely, no foundation!
Now lets observe some of the factual evidence we can interpret for Dr Welsings claims:
1. There is a whole sun tanning industry that has been built up specifically for white people to obtain darker skin.
2.There are synthetic drugs like Melatonin which have been produced to emulate the function of “Melanin” found predominately in Black people. Which medical scientists continue to extract illegitimately. But so far have been unable to reproduce successfully.
3. Racism: White supremacy as an ideology exists – white superiority/Black & non-white inferiority. Even though it is generally DENIED by white people.
4. Miscegenation laws that were once brought into practice in the US and unofficially sanctioned in other countries. Where based on what fear?
All this unexplained behaviour on the part of white people needs to be accounted for rationally in some way. While the inference that it could possibly be envy or jealousy on the part of white people for those of darker skin is worthy of consideration, certainly from a psychiatric point of view. (the profession of Dr Welsing) The factually observed behaviour above does seem to suggest this.
So to answer the question:
“…“Finally, I don’t know where the silly notion of whites being afraid of being wiped out by people with more melanin, or being jealous of people with darker skin came from… ”
Look to the observed behaviour of white people or provide an alternative, rationale and more plausible explanation…
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@legion
in response to joshua I said “where did you come by these claims or assertions.”
I was interested in where this commenter first heard these claims or assertions.
Then you responded with this {Joshua, what you say is not a claim or an assertion but an observation. It’s an observation because Cress Welsing’s stupid theory is based on: white fear of being ‘wiped out’ and whites being jealous of people with darker skin, she comes out and says these things.
We can observe her saying it in a Donahue interview on youtube and we can observe her saying it in quoted material on the wiki article about her.
Case closed.
I was not joshua’s obersvations ,it was his/her stating and denying the claims and asertions that are part of Dr.welsings theory or more correctly her hypothesis
As for your ad homiem attack and assertion of this case being closed,even if her hypothesis is 90% wrong it still deserves respect.
And I view this hypothesis to still be in the early stages of independent scientific validation yet to be concluded.
It should have been peer review when first published but racism/white supremacy seems to be a meta-phenomena – in that few if any white/albinic sapien’s have the capacity nor interest critically self anaylsize.
And how much do you or anyone’s else wants to bet she and all her fellow african american colleage experience continous overt and covert racism??!!
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“…I threw in the remark about her theory being stupid, because I think her theory/hypothesis is stupid…
That may well be your baseless opinion Legion…And I have to say shows your immense disrespect for a much respected African-American Academic like Dr Welsing. But here are two more recent videos to help with your unfortunate lack in comprehension skills.
Part 1.
(http://youtu.be/_GQ8yPWWXO8)
Part 2.
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@Kwamla,
I have read your comments and i must say you have handled this controversial topic well. But you surely don’t need me saying it.
I have a bit of anecdotal evidence, but it may or may not be directly related to the melanin theory itself.
I have had conversations with whites and they DO view themselves and their culture as somehow going “extinct”. This seems to be a common theme when i have dealt with them at work or at school. White women have made comments directly to me describing Black men as the “big” Black guy. But the tone in which it is stated evokes fear. This is just strange because in my lifetime i have never been in a situation where i felt threatened by Black men no matter their physical size.
I am still learning this stuff and by no means am i an expert, i just know what my experiences have been. I had a white male classmate who liked women of color, particularly Black women and he was all the time gathered around them, but seemed to be in constant competition with Black men. When i confronted him about this, he claimed that the Black guys at school always harassed him for “chatting” up their women. I had never seen this happen.
So what i am getting at here is perhaps there is something about white people that makes them uptight about interacting in a normal fashion with people darker than themselves and at the same time not being able to keep their distance from people darker than themselves…if this all makes sense.
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Thank you for your comment Phoebeprunelle!
Yes all of what you say makes sense to me. For those of us who have grown up with and had the opportunity to interact both formally and informally with white and Black people. These anecdotal accounts can be personally experienced.
Whether white people wish to acknowledge it or not their behaviour is related to a fascination or denial of something they perceive to be absent or lacking in themselves.
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Phoebeprunelle, you just confirmed for me that people who define themselves as “white” are racists. What you are describing here is typical of racist talk.
First of all, to think that your “race” is going extinct, you have to think that you are a member of a “race”.
It’s not typical of people who are light-skinned, just typical of racially-thinking people. Whiteness is meant to make them think they must reproduce “inside” their “race” (as is said in the US – what a strange strange expression for people who don’t think racially). Therefore are afraid (especially females) of a potential sexual “pollution” of “THE race”…
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^^ “white females” in the racist frame of reference, are the reproductive site of “the race”, so they are made to fear “black men” from when they are little if they live in a racist environment. It’s pure racist politics…
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Kwamla, what is “white people” to you ? (so that we know what and who we are talking about)
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Cornilla, the same question could be asked about Black people. But here is what I might say….
White people: anyone who identifies and reflects, in their thoughts, actions and appearance with being white. Whether that be consciously or otherwise. Most commonly understood to be European, American or “Westernized” peoples.
Have you come across this work yet?
http://dialogic.blogspot.co.uk/2008/01/theodore-w-allen-invention-of-white.html
Perhaps you would like to give me your view by answering your own question too?
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Hmmm, now I’m wondering, Kwamla, have you ever read one of my posts, like, really ?! You’re asking me ?
I do not view, define, label myself as white because I was never taught I was white (by people close to me). I realized there was something called “race” when I realized (as an adolescent) that there was some kind of continental conflict in claiming the achievements of Ancient Egypt. Also when learning about the Jews’ ordeal in Europe. And at the same time I realized that there were people that were called “black”, but those who called them (my culture) black didn’t in turn call themselves “white”. It was something of “different” against “normal” thing. My personal experience of contact with dark-skinned people was very positive, including the anecdotes my maternal grand-parents told me about their own encounters. My paternal grand-father, on the contrary, was a bad racist, with whom I clashed several times.
The seemingly “neutral” attitude towards “race” is now changing, the advent of the economic “crisis” has brought racists up front and together with them, racist vocabulary is back. Like in the old days. I’m talking about France here.
In the US, I learnt about all this in 1988. I thought segregation wasn’t over when I first arrived in South Carolina. And then I saw that people basically lived their lives separated. That was a shock because this was supposed to have been over for several decades (since the 60s), that what we learnt in class in France. And in France it was very different, probably one of the reasons why people like Miles Davis and Nina Simone lived there for a while, but someone like James Baldwin looked deeper and saw the inherent racism that was hidden because of the sentiment of shame about it (which doesn’t exist in the US).
And of course the same question could be asked about any “race”.
I have come across very very few people who call themselves or accept to be called “yellow” or “red”…
No, I have never come across this work, I’ll check that.
There was a book I noticed a few years ago entitled “There is no such thing as white people”, but I have never been able to find it afterwards.
And I read “The History of White People” which is basically a deconstruction of the creation of the idea of a “white” or “Caucasian race”.
So, to conclude, people may see me as white, but I am not “white”, because “whiteness” is a state of mind that is not mine.
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I notice Kwamla, that your approach varies depending on who you’re interacting with however… that’s why I asked you exactly how you view things, because it wasn’t that clear to me… If you approve of what phoebeprunelle thinks, then your definition is malleable… because it seems to me that she considers all so-called “whites” (and that would include me in her eyes) to “think” and “react” in the same manner… Which is a rac-ist vision of things. I’m not saying she is racist, she is simply expressing what she has experienced as a person in her environment, and she may have come across only racist Euro-descendants, that very possible because they are a very loud majority, but this generalization of “character” is rac-ist. It implies people who looks the same think the same and react the same. Again, I cannot blame her because she may have never met a non-racist Euro-descendant.
Personally I would be in trouble if I was afraid of -big- black men. Traveling to Cameroon would be a real ordeal ! I would be afraid of my own son ! 😉
But, yes, she is right, *there are* many “white” people (white-minded they are for sure) who are afraid of “blacks”… My children’s 5th grade teacher, a woman in her 50s once seriously told me how she “was so scared to see all those blacks everywhere” when she went on a charity trip to Burkina Faso. I had to refrain from bursting out laughing when I heard that. That was just so ridiculous. She goes to Africa and she expresses her fear of Africans ? wth !
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As I consider this forum one source of public/peer review of various hypothesis presented here and elsewhere I can and should expect some members of the public to be less than courteous,respectful or objective.
And As I have taken it upon myself to decide when and if any said hypothesis merits based on evidence the transition from hypothesis to theory ,I will decide when the case is concluded.
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“…Hmmm, now I’m wondering, Kwamla, have you ever read one of my posts, like, really ?! You’re asking me ?…”
Yes, Cornila…I have read a lot of your numerous posts. Some of which have been very informative and others not so.
I do attempt to engage with the particular individual as I read them acknowledging everyone is at a different level of experience or awareness.
One of the obvious currents that runs through your own correspondence is your eagerness to parade your level of knowledge and awareness of racism or white supremacy to the point of dictating to other people, like myself, in this forum about what is and what is not racist.
As you too will have read elsewhere on this blog I too have articulated my views extensively in this area. They are there for anyone who so chooses to explore them.
One observation I can make here from reading your comments though is how the very thing you appear too shun or disassociate from – whiteness – is still reflected in your posts. So the question that needs to be asked of yourself is this…
How do you see yourself?
How would you describe yourself given your undoubted experience of and embracement of African/Black culture.
This comes across as somewhat problematic for you as you seem to shy away from positively defining yourself in relation to this and everyone else. I think you would gain more form this as an exploration than from what phoebeprunelle thinks.
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Cornlia:
These are very broad claims, but not untypical of those steeped in a common brand of western academic social science.
Are Pashtuns who wish their children to marry other Pashtuns racist? How about those of Igbo, Jewish, or Welsh descent who wish their children to marry within their group?
“No,” some would answer, “that’s ok, but race is an artificial construct and so is less deserving of legitimacy.”
Setting aside the questionable basis for casting such judgments, one might further ask:
Even if the concept of ‘race’ is indeed an inorganic construct of relatively recent origin, does that mean it has no basis for existence?
For example, are you suggesting that if you were blindfolded and placed in the midst, for a day, of a group of 200 or so randomly selected ‘black’ people and then later a group of 200 or so randomly selected ‘white’ people that you’d be able to detect (assuming they all spoke the same language) no differences whatsoever?
“Sure,” the argument then follows, “but the terms ‘black’ and ‘white’ have been used historically as a basis of discrimination.”
So has the term ‘Irish’, but that doesn’t imply that ‘Irish’ as a cultural group designation doesn’t really exist or that it’s inherently pejorative.
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^I think more or less the term “race” confuses a lot people…
it is much more productive to discuss human skin color (this does exist) and how people have come to understand genetics…
Much like i think the melanin theory may try to attempt to explain.
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Kwamla, let’s get some things straight, shall we ? I don’t like to talk about me when it’s not to illustrate something with my personal experience. But since you allow yourself to think you know me, let’s do it.
I’m not here to “parade” (that made me laugh, I’m beyond that age, Kwamla) but to share knowledge (which means it’s both ways, I’m learning a lot from others here, including you) with others. You have your own vision of who/what I am (because you don’t know me, but you assume you know, because you know other people who “look like me”, it does influence you a lot I can see that).
Can you please quote me “dictating” you and others ? If I did I’m ready to apologize and do introspective searching. But first quote me. I’m curious to know what you consider as “dictating others”. (Plus really, what coercive power do I have here ? If people don’t care about what I say, they don’t read me)
For instance, here is one thing you assume you know: my ” undoubted experience of and embracement of African/Black culture.” Huh ???
What the heck does that mean ? My “embracement of African/Black culture” ? Can you explain what you mean here because this just something I imagine you are assuming about me. Do you imagine me as wearing dreadlocks and “trying to be black” ?
I am French and I haven’t “embraced African/Black culture”. I have married an African man. So I have to know about African culture because I participate in our children’s raising. I respect that “culture” (which is not one, anyway) and learn about it, and try to make my fellow citizens aware of the BS my country had created everywhere we have been. That’s not “embracing African/Black culture” ! That’s learning and sharing my knowledge of history. My parents in law (may their ancestors take care of them and may they watch over us – which I know they do, like my grandpa and grandma) considered me as their daughter, they knew who I “really” am. That’s enough for me. I don’t need a stranger’s recognition.
I don’t “appear to disassociate from whiteness”, I DO reject it. First because it doesn’t exist. It’s not “appearance”, it’s a political decision. It’s the affirmation of the conviction that racism is a destroyer and I don’t want to destroy other people. I am not racist. Period. I do not believe in the concept of “race”, therefore I don’t apply it and I tell other people that I think it’s not a good idea at all (maybe that’s what you call “dictating” ?)
I don’t need to “ask myself” anything, Kwamla, I know who I am and I know “what” I am supposed to be in other people’s eyes. You’ve just told me. You assume you know.
Don’t worry about me, Kwamla, I have now reached an age where I have found wiseness. I used to get extremely angry at racists. Now I know the best way to deal with them is to ignore them when it is possible. And otherwise to devise strategies to crush their utter stupidity and cruelty. We sometimes have “war councils” with my husband when we gather our respective knowledge and experience to counteract racists -at work, in the family, when looking for an apartment, when dealing with a teacher…-.
I reject their ideology because, 1/ I have never believed in it, and I don’t see WHY I should start now (why should I be a racist da*n it ?) and 2/ I have come to understand how their manipulative scheme works.
So please, don’t give me no
LOL What are you, a psychologist ?
Does it sound problematic that I don’t believe in “race” and am not a racist ? THAT’s negative ? Because it all goes down to “this”, as you say. What is exactly the problem ? I don’t follow the path that was traced for me ? Does that bother racists ? Yes, it does. They hate it, when I tell them that races don’t exist. Just try that on a supremacist forum, you’ll see.
As of my “level of knowledge and awareness” that I “parade”: is it a problem if I am eager to know how racism works and impacts other people’s lives ? Is it a problem that I have spent the last thirty years of my life first discovering what it is about and then wanting to learn always more of what’s hidden from me (us) ? That’s “parading knowledge” ??? Really ? So I should have remained in my “white” ignorance and perpetuate racism the good way, the way racists want me too ? You’re calling thirst for understanding and learning “parading knowledge” ? Sad, really, but what else can I say ?
This: I call that the victory of racists. Their thinking is that: I am “white” therefore I must “think white”. Period. That’s what they think and that’s what they’ve taught others. They are indeed devilish. Pure manipulators. I know it, so I don’t blame anyone on this, but it just makes me sad.
You know, I could have avoided “revealing” that I am classified as “white” on this forum and avoided telling about things that reveal it, you would never have known. I have been honest and mentioned who I am and that I am: French and labelled as “white” in the American Census in the conversations because we ARE talking about “race” and racism.
It’s very easy to avoid it. I do it in other places, I don’t give clues as to “what” I am, I express my non-racist views and opinions, which are the same as all non-racist people. It’s just ridiculous how people are influenced in their reactions by “what” they think they know about others because they supposedly “know their race”. There are people on the internet who think I am “black”, simply because I’m not racist and I know stuff that many “whites” don’t. It’s usually also racists (racially minded people) who think that. Maybe that’s what you perceive as “parading” ? I don’t take any pride in knowing those things. To me it’s obvious that I should, because it’s one way to fight racism. To expose things that are never taught “officially”.
You believe in race, you believe in the melanin theory, which is a rac-ist theory because it is based on the belief in race. It doesn’t “work” if you take “race” away from it. It’s very simple… It’s your “problematic”, not mine.
Peace
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@Randy, interesting comment, thanks.
Not so broad, many people do not analyze things that way ! And not only western if you consider that quite a few Afro-descendants in the Academic world (especially in Britain) do hold them.
I personally have always thought that, and after reading them, I realize that I agree with some.
No, because “Pashtun” and “Igbo” and “Jewish” are not “races” but groups of people that have things in common that they perpetuate. I think that when a people has an assured and confident faith in its culture (anything that constitutes it), they are not “afraid” of disappearing or of “pollution”. Only those who think of themselves as a “race” share that fear.
Also, I think you’re thinking “race” in the “usual” Anglo-Saxon sense… which is not the one I use (French-speaking people never do). When I say “race”, I refer to the 18th and 19th century racial classifications that are still used in the American Census, for instance, but less than before, there is “only” “White” and “Black” remaining.
It is not a judgment, it is an observation: “race” is an artificial construct. If it is not, then racists are morally right to perpetuate it. And racism is fine.
It does for racially-minded people. They think external appearance and some cultural attitudes reflect the belonging to a “race”.
Haha, that’s funny you should ask that. -I would detect individual differences, certainly not “racial” ones !- Btw, this would be a kind of experience to multiply to show people how wrong they are.
But let me tell you why it’s funny. Back when I was little (probably 12), I retorted to my old neighbour, one of those ugly racists, who constantly ranted about “Arabs” and “Blacks”, who was telling me that “les noirs ne sentent pas bons” (“Blacks stink”): “If we were to put you and other people of all skin colors in the same room and switch off the light, I wonder who would stink most, hé ?”
“Black” and “white” do not refer to the same thing as “Irish”.
Well, yeah, maybe now they do, because people “wear” their “race” as they would a culture. That’s what is described in the term “ethnicity”, another of those scientific words used to mean what it doesn’t. Racists hide behind it in France where the reference to “race” is considered racist by law (logically).
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One of the obvious currents that runs through your own correspondence is your eagerness to parade your level of knowledge and awareness of racism or white supremacy to the point of dictating to other people, like myself, in this forum about what is and what is not racist.
Thanks for pointing that out Kwamla. There are too many ‘enlightened’ white folk who talk a lot of cack, colour-blind racists if you will. Judging from the long response you got, you may have hit a nerve. Cornla is a prime example of one.
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“Judging from the long response you got, you may have hit a nerve. Cornla is a prime example of one.”
So I guess answering question that require a long answer *prove* that I am a “hidden” racist…
He hit no nerve. My nerves have never been touched by this type of “observation”. But it probably *may* make you feel good that he *may have*.
You guys are something, I’m telling you.
I was born in a racist country in a family where there were racists and non-racists. But I’m not supposed to know what racism is…
Wow. What a deductive capacity.
You think exactly on the same line as them. They think they know you. You think you know me.
Peace
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You believe in race, you believe in the melanin theory, which is a rac-ist theory because it is based on the belief in race
Not really Cornlia–and one doesn’t have to be an “Afrocentrist”, “Black-Radical” or whatever.. to see that those who classify themselves genetically and socially as “white” behave abnormally with and around those who are non-white. Why is this????!!!
From what i understand the melanin theory attempts to make sense of how human genetics functions not about how “race” functions.
Like i said above, it may be “easier” for some to talk about human skin color instead of “race” and what is “rac-ist” in this forum (although it is just a suggestion)
I for one am not too above myself to discredit years and years of research because it doesn’t align with my personal beliefs. That would be totally anti-intellectual and right now, Black people cannot afford to be anti-intellectual.
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But it probably *may* make you feel good that he *may have*.
Oh no Cornla. On the contrary I found it to be comical and absurd. Your further response only confirms my view of you as a colour-blind racist. Carry on! Oh and I don’t think ‘I know you”, who really knows anyone? I go by your post(s), the ones I read that is. Like I said, Carry on.
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So, anyone thinking like Kwamla and Herneith, what exactly do you want ?
“White” people who try to learn and change things
“White” people who don’t give a da*n because things are fine the way they are (for them)
None of the above
‘Cause, really, when someone tries to learn and exchange, it’s not okay (He/she is a fake). When someone doesn’t, it’s not okay.
So what is ?
Do you realize who you’re serving here ? White supremacy loves it ! It’s a perfect world. Self-propelled machinery, as I call it. Even the slightest grains of sand in it are not welcome… ‘Cause I am nobody, you know. Just a little someone trying to do what’s right. And your comments *could* be discouraging but I will never give up on racism.
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What’s comical, Herneith, is that you would call me a “colour-blind racist”.
I keep saying that I don’t believe in the concept of “race”, but I’m a racist… So apparently I should, because I should see “colors”, that is “races”. And if I did, I wouldn’t be a racist !
Can you tell me where the logic is in this kind of thinking ?
Your replies are interesting because they actually confirm to me that you prefer racists. Good old racists who see “races” as “colors” that contain character. And that agrees with the Melanin theory that assigns character to “color”. Looking at it from that angle, I can see the logic. It’s a racist logic and therefore you cannot be okay with people who reject “race” as a biological fact.
cdfd. That’s French for “What had to be demonstrated”. (Ce qu’il fallait démontrer).
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We are both looking for the answer, Phoebeprunelle. But I am apparently under the injunction to abide by “race” when I don’t see why I should, because this is asking me and everyone who rejects the BS MY ancestors (MINE !) created to renounce fighting racism. This is kinda crazy, don’t you think so ?
If I knew the answer to that question, I would be happy, because, mind you Pheobeprunelle, these are my family members, fellow citizens and colleagues, teachers and students and “friends” (but I don’t have many because I can’t compromise on this) of mine. So I would also like to know WHY on earth some behave like this and others don’t. Do you think I enjoy being around those people who don’t even know how insane they are ?
Kwamla and others (like you) think it’s answered by the Melanin Theory. I think it isn’t because that theory bases itself ON race, so how can it understand racism ?
However if you are right, then reality will strike some day, and there is nothing we can do about it if it’s what nature says. But so far, I don’t see it coming and I hope that these Melanin Theory thinkers are not leading you astray and making it even more difficult for you… Other posters said very clearly that the Theory isn’t based on much research and even less peer review, so it will be validated only with difficulty. For one thing, what I have read of it has not much scientific basis, and if it is a spiritual path (as Kwamla suggested), then it has nothing to do with science .
If not accepting “biological race” as a fact is a “belief”, then we are right in the middle of a second twist of the perversion of racism… Rejecting “race” as a biological fact is not *my belief*, it’s the political decision of many, but not in the US.
My problem, Phoebeprunelle, here, is that I really wonder, if you guys are ready to “attack” someone who is sincerely (da*n and if it doesn’t show I don’t know what to do) NOT racist, then what do you do with racists? If you shun potential allies in the fight against white supremacy (at the same time I do understand that you wouldn’t trust “us”), then we are you going to join ranks with ?
Or is the plan to wait for the “white race” to “go extinct” ? (which may take a while)
I have now said what I had to say on this and I must say I’m getting a little “weary” of being insulted (called a racist and asked to be racist) and of having to play by Amerikkkan racist talk and rules. So I’ll retreat in a softer and saner environment of “no race talk” for a little while. I left the US years ago because of it, to escape the insanity.
Peace (and I mean it, I do have a spiritual vision of what I am trying to do: peace of mind for everyone, which may never happen because of the BS my ancestors left behind, but I’m trying)
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Kwamla and others (like you) think it’s answered by the Melanin Theory.
Although i can’t speak for Kwamla, i never implied that it’s answered solely by the melanin theory…i only said it should be considered because it is based on years of research and even then it is only one piece of the puzzle.
My problem, Phoebeprunelle, here, is that I really wonder, if you guys are ready to “attack” someone who is sincerely (da*n and if it doesn’t show I don’t know what to do) NOT racist, then what do you do with racists?
Again i can only speak for myself, and i never implied you were “racist”…nor did i give a definition about who or what i think is racist, so my question to you is how then did i become one of your said accusers?
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Other posters said very clearly that the Theory isn’t based on much research and even less peer review, so it will be validated only with difficulty.
And!!!!???? That is laughable–you obviously have never worked in academia. No offense.
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If not accepting “biological race” as a fact is a “belief”, then we are right in the middle of a second twist of the perversion of racism… Rejecting “race” as a biological fact is not *my belief*, it’s the political decision of many, but not in the US.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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“…Kwamla and others (like you) think it’s answered by the Melanin Theory. I think it isn’t because that theory bases itself ON race, so how can it understand racism ?…”
Cornila,
This is just one example easily picked from your numerous comments. It clearly demonstrates your desire to dictate to others what you don’t really understand about Melanin and what constitutes racism.
For some reason you seem to think your stated family relationships and experiences enable you to comment more authoritatively than either myself or anyone else here. This dismissive behavior you are displaying is classic “white arrogance”.
So my question again to you is do you recognize this? Or would you like to simply explain it away, once more, as you keep on doing?
Why should you think for one moment I should give your own analysis of Melanin theory or racism based on your particular experience precedence over mine? Or the experience of other Black commentators here?
No one is saying here you are not entitled to express views or opinions but there is a way to do this. And certainly on this topic you are expressing from the viewpoint that YOU know better than anyone else here.
You should not be surprised then when others here (including myself) seek to question or challenge that.
My earlier suggestion to you still holds: “…you seem to shy away from positively defining yourself in relation to Black and white people. I still think you would gain more insight form this as an exploration. …”
Even white Randy offered helpful insight into this predicament you refuse to look at.
It would certainly give you another focus other than who is racist and who is non-racist. Remember it is still possible to exhibit both attributes in the same body!
I personally assume ALL white people are either racist or have the potential to be racist. I certainly do not assume any white (or Black) person to be automatically free from the affects of white supremacy. How could they?
Racism can be an unconscious attribute you don’t realize you share just like white privilege.No amount of pleading you are free of this or immune to its effects can rarely sound convincing.
This subtle awareness in itself can speak volumes about you…something you have you yet to pick up on it seems…
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@phoebeprunelle
“Not really Cornlia–and one doesn’t have to be an “Afrocentrist”, “Black-Radical” or whatever.. to see that those who classify themselves genetically and socially as “white” behave abnormally with and around those who are non-white. Why is this????!!!”
Well, I think we could say for hypothetical consideration, I’m a ‘white’ guy, I mean do you have to have a 7 syllable conglomeration of politically correct syllables to make a symbol of ‘light-complected person’ for purposes of definition and discussion?
And it is only interaction with people of difference how’s that for a term that you can define yourself and what it is you believe, stand for, and see yourself as.
And I’m not trying to ignore avoid, or deny racism especially in the US.
In middle school, my class size was about 120 or so? there were 4 black kids, and me and one other girl had red hair. The black kids walked around in a little squad like 2×2 squared off, they kept to themselves, and I am not aware of their experience as they did not enter my consciousness at the time.
However, most of the town was Italian and I tell you i got my butt kicked many times for having ‘red hair’ it was not fun, so I know Abagond has this in the broken record department but noone’s trying to deny people (ugly americans, especially) are generally rude, and stick to what they think they know.
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Cornlia, juat for the record about “American thinking “, Kwamla and Herneath arnt American….
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BR, it’s American anyway.
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Phoebeprunelle, I’m sorry, it is true, you never said anything to me. I was referring to the way people who “follow” the Melanin Theory think as far as race and how others reacted to my not believing that it is valid because it relies on that very belief. Sorry.
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Okay, Kwamla, if your version of debate is to constantly come back to “me” instead of discussing facts (which you don’t seem to appreciate because you always turn from facts to “me”, who you DON’T know, AGAIN), there is no need for us to discuss, because I am not here to discuss my own self.
I have now had it with these “I know YOU better because I KNOW “white people” and the way they think because “melanin” -somehow- tells me so.
You are constantly turning to the examples and anecdotes I (seldom, because I have other arguments) have used to illustrate things (we all have our specific experience and I don’t how mine should be dismissible) INSTEAD of discussing facts. Where on earth have I have posited myself as “more” than you on this blog ?
We all come here to share things, arguments, stories, illustrations, ideas, conter-ideas that others can agree and disagree with.
Talking about ME is not the purpose of this blog. You ASKED me questions above, I REPLIED to them (I could have left them there but I wanted things to be clear) and I am now pointed to as the one who is arrogant ???
I ABSOLUTELY do NOT recognize any arrogance in my participation in this blog. I want you to stop pointing to ME to avoid talking about the topics.
You post links, you reply to others, but I haven’t read a TRULY honest and clear expression of what exactly you think of the melanin theory. Is it racist or not in your opinion ? That’s my point. I think it is.
That’s ALL I am discussing. I have been reflecting long enough and reading more and more on this to have formed my own opinion, and I am sharing it, not IMPOSING it here. Everyone here has a different take on things, it is a form of forum, so there is nothing wrong with that.
You are confusing conviction with arrogance, Kwamla. Arrogance is what racists display, conviction is needed to counteract them. I used to have less confidence, I’m gaining more and more against them. And since you somehow do not like my take on “race”, maybe it does bother you.
I have already replied to this “en long, en large et en travers”. As said, that’s it. I’m done with discussing myself. What’s important here is ideas, and you definitely are trying to avoid that (in a very cunning but manipulative way, trying to represent me as some kind of crazy “white” woman. Stop discussing me and let’s talk about melanin and race.
You didn’t have to say that, it’s obvious that’s what you think.
And you’re telling ME that I am the one who thinks she knows better ? Look at what you’re telling me…
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I am now going back to ideas and facts.
About the Melanin Theory, all of the above made me think about it. (I am currently beginning to read stuff about it, I’ll come back to the thread in a few months when I am done, yes I have other things to do).
The Melanin Theory has the same preliminary concept as “classical” racism.
It assumes that there are “races”.
It assumes that one “race” is above the other for one reason.
It tries to “prove” that that reason is founded in nature (melanin).
It attaches “character” to “color” (of skin), as melanin supposedly has an effect on a lot of bodily and psychological functions, all the way to mystical and cosmic aspects of it.
It expresses the idea that darker-skinned people are superior.
It states that one day they shall rule.
Doesn’t it sound *reversely* familiar ?
That’s all I’m saying.
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I’ll be honest with you here Cornilla…I am not going to go through a lengthy analysis of your responses to my last comment. Not because I am incapable or don’t have the time (I can always find this if required) but because it would be boring!
I’ve read much of your own accounts, analysis and understandings of racism (definitions of racists and non-racists) and while it may be “self-informative” and “cathartic” for YOU to express them here… in this way… on this blog. It does nothing of this sort for me to have to read or listen to them!
With all due respect…You have:
(1) Not conveyed anything to me about racism that I was previously unaware of
(2) Enlightened me from a more indepth perspective of your own about its subtleties, and
(3) Probably unintentionally exposed the limitations of your own understanding relative to my own and others here.
Yet still… you would persist in continuing to articulate and boldly declare your point of view as if it is something I may not have considered or might not be understanding?
Basically you are repeating with your extensive comments YOU know more about racism here than me, or others here for that matter?…Hmmm…Not saying that in other situations with other people this could be true. It just simply does not apply here in my particular case.
Now if you wish to label what I have just expressed here as an equal form of “arrogance” on my part or even “Black arrogance” then go ahead!!! I really don’t mind or care!
Your assumed understandings about the nature of racists and non-racists in our societies has now extended its self further to include the little you know about the workings of Melanin.
Again, notwithstanding your obviously challenged knowledge in this area you still presume to know sufficiently about it to conclude such a theory…
I have already written and given you many pieces of FACTUAL information and evidence (in this very thread!) worth of further consideration and exploration but some how you would rather choose to ignore all this? Proving in its self your “classic inability” to understand different information from you own limiting perspective.
But then Cornilia…
You don’t HAVE TO understand this….And in the same way to I don’t have to keep trying to explaining it to you….
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@ Legion
Perhaps you would care to share what ideas you believe I may be:
“…in a very cunning but manipulative way …” trying to avoid.
That is if its not beyond what I’ve already established are your limited comprehension skills in this area!
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Some useful commenting and a bit more informative information on Melanin can be found here:
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and I’m mostly irish but i’m not irish, know what i mean
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Cornlia:
Are you claiming that if you were blindfolded and spent a whole day with 200 random black people and another day blindfolded with 200 random white people that you would not be able to later determine which group was which?
I would expect that most people would be able to accurately distinguish between these two groups. So what does that imply?
It suggests that even if modern idea of “race” were in fact an inorganic construction, that over time it has nonetheless coalesced into discrete, identifiable cultural differences at least among some members.
To deny or disparage these differences seems to not only ignore an obvious reality, but also appears rather insulting to those who may choose to culturally identify in that manner.
I’d be interested to hear if anyone else thinks that they would be unable to pass the “200 random people challenge”.
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Héhéhé… (sorry everyone, this is gonna be long, but you can stick to the most important, the capitalized parts. I’m desperately trying to make it short on my take of “melanin” -see short post above-, but Kwamla has decided that I should not be understood)
So Kwamla you ask me questions, but you’re not interested my answers because
you are “honest with” me,
you “are not going to go through a lengthy analysis of (my) responses” (I wonder why you ask questions then)
“because it would be boring!”
Yep, I actually am such a boring poster. You are so right. I don’t know nothing, and I have no ideas to share. (that is for those who already have decided on what to believe in)
As I said, there is no obligation to read anyone’s stuff.
Please don’t talk about “due respect” !
Guess what, I do not come here to talk to YOU only.
You’re a funny guy, you know ? You ask me questions but I am not supposed to answer them because they would be boring and uninteresting ! Again, why do you ask them then ?
…
Where the heck did I EVER do that ? (say that I know more)
Again, I come here to exchange, like everyone else, and other posters make much longer comments than me (which are often interesting). The point is, I express MY opinions, I don’t contend myself with posting links.
Plus, repetition is what racists do too, and I have learnt with time that the only way to counter them is to repeat in turn. Which you do too. But apparently I’m not allowed to do so.
I am not interested in your particular case, I am interested in the ideas displayed on this blog and the exchanges we ALL have. And there are new people coming here and then.
Here we go again, master manipulator. DON’T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You are the one saying it, I NEVER DID. (I’m using Caps because I want everyone to see what you are doing. Putting words in other people’s mouth)
What I’m starting to think is that you are actually anxiously waiting for me to “reveal” my supposed “hidden racist rage” in an explosion of insults. But this won’t happen Kwamla, because I am not racist and only racists can’t hold it back. They explode at one point or another. (Do you really think i was born with the last rain ? -French expression-)
Isn’t this the Melanin thread and haven’t you posted stuff that I have read ?
I do know sufficiently (you informed me, among others, and I knew Dr Cress-Wesling’s ideas a long long time ago -maybe you were a child then-), Kwamla, to recognize the similarities.
And readers are BIG enough to decide on their own if my take on it is valid or not, or partially valid. Your eagerness to try and make ME sound “stupid” and therefore dismiss all my propositions and analyzes as irrelevant is beginning to look suspicious. Are you fearing the probability that I may actually have hit a nail somewhere ?
As I said above, I am not ignoring them, I am analyzing them.
Hahaha. You’re enjoying yourself, aren’t you ?
The master manipulator’s last blow…
Sure, I don’t have to (the readers are supposed to understand -“because she can’t”-). Again, Kwamla, I am used to manipulators and people specialized in trying to destroy others’ personalities in the internet, where no one can know for sure who someone is.
Can we stick to ideas, please. Thank you.
Peace.
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Ah Randy, sorry, cultural differences here.
I would in an American context, I wouldn’t in a French context (except if some of the “Black people” are not French-born and have retained their original accents).
And the “whites” in the French context would probably be more differentiated than “whites” in the American context, where “racial” uniformization is the rule.
It already happened to me on campus lately, I was sitting with my back to a group of girls who were chatting and thought “hum, in this country you can even know “what” someone is by listening to them.”
When I got up and turn around to go, I was almost right, I thought there were 2 girl classified as “black” and 3 as “white”, but apparently one of the “blacks” didn’t have a “black accent”…
So, as said somewhere else, Americans should be careful not to generalize their take on “race”, because it is not applicable everywhere.
And there are many accents and languages in the African diaspora too. And there are “whites” in majority “black” countries who speak with the same accents, so they could be mistaken for “blacks” in that ground.
Sorry for not including the US in my reading of your post.
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To add something to my correction to your question, Randy,
in France, it would be possible to distinguish people living in “la banlieue”, which is where ever in France in the HLM “low rent housing” (equivalent to what Americans call projects, but smaller) as the Arabic speaking population’s accent has had a strong impact on the accent most people who live there (whatever their origin or their being originally “French”).
People know when someone is from “la Banlieue”, rappers often “joke” about the fact that one has to be able to switch accents when looking for a job, because if your accent is “la banlieue’s”, there is little chance you’ll get a job, all the more if your skin is dark, because racism adds another layer of discrimination.
It would also be possible to detect regional accents and also “class” accents, as the rich often speak differently from the poor.
But “race” would have no impact.
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^Unless someone decides to construct another racial system of classification on that basis of course.
That would somehow mean returning to the “original race”, the aristocratic one, which used to be called the “blue bloods”, and eventually gave birth to a distorted version in the “white race”.
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So one thing is for sure, melanin has no impact on your accent… 😉
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To go back to your original question, for the blind-folded person to detect “races” in the room, she/he would have to KNOW, understand and spot the “racial” accents of Americans if she/he were to differentiate.
I think your idea would be much more fun if the people in the room where all all backgrounds and region. Much more fun !
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This is not about accents, but it’s about “race” and “sorting people”. Very revealing.
Try it !
http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_00-home.htm
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Just a practical question Abagond: would you know for what reason Randy’s last comment to me above didn’t appear in my emails ? Just wondering how it’s possible I get all the others and not this one, technologically speaking. You can delete this post after reading it.
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Cornlia:
The “200 random people challenge” specifies a blindfold and spending an entire day with each group as so to minimize superficial traits such as appearance and accent.
I posit that most people can determine whether each group is black or white based on discussion content, conversational style, and other cultural clues, thus lending credence to the idea that regardless of its ontology, the concept of “race” as a cultural identifier for many people is empirically demonstrable.
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Thanks for the precisions, Randy. Did my subsequent replies bring light to the fact that so-called “racial differences” depend on whether or how “race” is defined in different cultures ?
What I am saying here ^ is that if you put someone in that room (whichever) who has no knowledge of the “racially” determined accents could not recognize these differences.
For make sure we are on the same wavelength; I do acknowledge that the ideology of “race” has led to the construction and separate cultural evolution of different groups -it WAS actually its aims-, in the US in particular. That’s what leads me to say “there are no “races””, because we are here witnessing the influence of an ideology on the construction of human groups. My problem with “race” is that it is a separator, not a gatherer, basically. If “race” had had positive impacts, I wouldn’t even care. There are people who are okay with that type of separation. I am not. When you witness what it has done everywhere it has spread, with the most blatant examples being South Africa and the US, I cannot see it as positive, and I *guess* I’m not the only one…
Is this “experiment” (why is it called a “challenge, btw ?) aimed at finding “racial” differentiations or does it focus on cultural aspects of differences ? A blind-folded person can only get info from listening or touching, so apart from accents and hints from conversations heard, and from touching (which I don’t think Americans would appreciate as there is little physical contact “allowed” in the US), are there other communicative aspects involved ?
Do you have a link for this ? (I googled the phrase and nothing comes up first page).
Thanks.
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….I posit that most people can determine whether each group is black or white based on discussion content, conversational style, and other cultural clues,…
Do you think you could determine this amongst English speaking groups (if this is your first and only language) outside the U.S?
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omnipresent, (at first I thought you were Randy)
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Oops, sorry, forgot to edit the “blockquote” paste above.
My comment starts at “Not sure.”
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Cornlia:
Aren’t all groups by definition defined by differences?
Cornlia:
So you asses a cultural differentiator only by its negatives? That seems a bit judgmental and high-handed, particularly towards those who may embrace those group identities in a positive manner. You appear not to grant cultural legitimacy for people’s voluntary affiliations.
Cornlia:
I would suggest that just from conversational form and content (discussion topics, participation styles, cultural references, etc) most people could determine whether a group of people were black or white. If true, that would appear to indicate that “black” and “white” exist as testable groups.
Cornlia:
No link. I just conceived of the idea in response to your assertion that the concept of race as a grouping lacks evidence or merit.
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Randy, just a short remark/question:
How does the rejection of the ideology of “race” (= not determining humans groups as “races) equal refusing to see differences between human groups ?
This is an argument I often get thrown at : “you don’t want to recognize differences because you don’t want to “see race”.
To that I reply that “race” is the most powerful homogenizing myth ever invented, that had thrown in the same bag people(s) who are hugely different: like Europe human groups who showed their differences through wars for quite a while as “whites” and Africans with all their diversity and the Australian original inhabitants: all called “blacks”.
So rejecting “race” is acknowledging difference, not the opposite !
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Omnipresent:
Good question. My guess is that you’d need to have familiarity with local cultures to make the distinction, in the same way that you need to have some knowledge of Spain to observe the differences between Basque and Catalan cultures.
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My last comments answered yours, Randy.
I’m just going to copy-paste this:
and leave it to everyone’s appreciation. Especially “voluntary”.
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Cornlia
I know that most British and Irish people use “race” to talk about culturally homogenous groups of people, and, as said above, it is not the case for French-speaking people.
Excuse my ‘netiquette’. I came across this blog from my wife – rarely do I post on here.
I think what you said above is an exception and not the general rule amongst people from the British Isles, the exception being, those from more rural areas where there is little in the way of diversity so ‘difference’ is noted and used as a way of distinguishing and describing individuals. In inner city areas which tend to be more densely diverse with people from multi racial backgrounds that are ‘racially ambiguous’ to look at, ‘race’ would not be used primarily in the way you state.
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Which way do I state “race” would be used, Omnipresent ? (I don’t know what you are referring to in your last comment)
I am asking because I think we are actually saying the same thing but Randy is saying what you are pointing to. Thanks.
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Oh I think I got it. So you’re saying that British people do NOT “use “race” to talk about culturally homogenous groups of people”
Is that it ?
If yes, how do they use it ? In the American way ? thanks.
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Oh I think I got it. So you’re saying that British people do NOT “use “race” to talk about culturally homogenous groups of people”
Is that it ?
If yes, how do they use it ? In the American way ? thanks.
Yes – that is why I was saying that it depends on where in the British Isles they are from and how diverse the populace and whether it is rural or inner city etc.
From the brief examples I have seen here it is not similar to the American way but more similar to the example you gave of France – albeit in ‘some’ areas.
Randy
My guess is that you’d need to have familiarity with local cultures to make the distinction, in the same way that you need to have some knowledge of Spain to observe the differences between Basque and Catalan cultures.
Well, in that case, without seeing the individual I would ‘assume’ that they were from a Latin speaking country (Einstein in the house lol) and that would be as much as I would need to know as a potential conversation breaker with my ‘broken’ Spanish. The hue of their skin would bear no relevance to me nor would it ‘guide’ me further as to their origins. Rather than make assumptions it would be a Q&A between me and the individual.
Strange though about the U.S – I know like most countries there is a population of people who have migrated from other countries over the years but in terms of ‘cultural differences’ I would not expect BP in the U.S to speak about different things to WP in the U.S, unless they were recent emigres’.
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@ Uncle Ruckus
Its a good job I don’t react to comments like the above at the personal level. Otherwise I’d be leaping to attack your absurd characterisation of me. I’d probably begin attacking you at the level of argument you feel most comfortable accommodating. (Level 0 !!!)
Let just say you are entitled to your opinion (for what it is worth!).
The words we leave scattered around blog sites like this speak volumes about own individual, personal thoughts, ideas and beliefs. They can (but not always) be a direct reflection of our most cherished beliefs. They can act like a mirror.
However, most people can get so caught up in projecting those thoughts onto other people they meet that they forget to look at what that mirror is also reflecting to them. But when they do they may not like what they see and either deny or ignore it.
A clear indication that this may not be the wisest of approaches to adopt is if the reflection makes you feel uncomfortable. At this point you have several options you can take:
(1) Continue to deny and ignore it, even though you think it might reflect true
(2) Continue to deny and ignore it, because you believe it might reflect false
(3) Continue to deny and ignore it, because your level of self-awareness hasn’t reached this stage yet
Or
(4) Decide to listen to the feeling, reflecting on it and exploring where it takes you…
I suspect Uncle Ruckus you have settled on option (3)!
But that is just the opinion of a fraud of course!
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The reasons they seek to whipe us out are far more complex than them just feeling threatened by the fact that we carry a higher melanin count in our skin or brain..Its spiritual … A certain part of the article seems to support darwins theory on evolution (milions of years).
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“You really wanna know why the topic of melanin is so controversial?
Because it proves that black people are superior to whites and whites can’t handle it. ‘Nuff said. ”
This doesn’t make any sense. How do melanin levels make someone objectively superior to someone else? There is melanin-level variation everywhere – are people from South Sudan ‘superior’ to people from South Africa because they have a higher level of melanin in their skin? The absurd xenophobia surrounding people with high amounts of melanin is a real thing, but the ‘Melanin theory’ which attempts to explain ‘euro-barbarism’ is just another case of vacuous reactionary pseudoscience which sounds all too much like the kind of drivel colonial scientists tended to vomit out not too long ago.
Not to mention the fact that there are two separate types of melanin in the human body, the lesser known of which produces the pigmentation for red/orange hair and pink pigmentation around the genitals. Thus, does this prove that people from Scotland, Chechnya and other places where red hair is common such as central Australia, are ‘superior’ to people who do not have reddened hair and genitalia for you?
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Just to tie up one loose end from my posts in the alligator bait thread:
There are multiple causal factors of albinism just as there are multiple ways to experience the symptoms of diabetes since there is a hormonal pathway involved. It could be that your pancreas is not producing insulin or that your cells are not responding to it, for example.
Now, as mentioned before, it is the pineal gland in the brain that produces melatonin which interacts with the pituitary gland and melanocyte-stimulating hormone to cause the melanocytes to produce melanin. The pineal gland is located between the brain hemispheres and the pituitary gland at the base of the brain. So brain chemistry is intimately involved in the process. However, one could also have very pale skin because the melanocytes in the skin are not responding properly to the signals.
However, in people who self-identify are white there are striking collective behavioral differences that are consistent across time and place. And their ‘race’ also displays a greater susceptibility to degenerative nervous system diseases such as Parkinson’s and Multiple Sclerosis due to melanin deficiency. Furthermore, those who self-identify as white have a much higher incidence of calcification of the pineal gland. (It is sometimes called ‘the third eye’ as it has two kinds of cells analagous to ‘rods’ and ‘cones’) This is significant because the pineal gland, through the production of melatonin, plays an important role in the production path of melanin. So for whites, I believe there is a difference in skin color, a difference in behavior and a difference in brain chemistry that are ultimately related.
So when this post, for example, is titled ‘the heart of whites’ it could also be titled the ‘brain of whites’.
Apparently, they do not experience empathy in the same way as the rest of us. How could they? If they did it would not have been possible for them to destroy the people of the world with glee. Lack of empathy is what allows psychopathic behavior.
Now It is interesting to me that in one of the most common ancient writings we have on hand (the Bible) loss of color of skin is put in a negative light. Thre word ADAMDAM, for example, which is formed from the root DAM (blood) is usually taken to mean reddish-white.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/125.htm
From link: (compare Assyrian ada(m)mumu)
Adamdam is associated with reddish-white sores that show up before ‘leprosy’ as seen in the references in Leviticus. Leprosy itself is associated with whiteness as those struck with it are said to ‘become white’.
Eg Numbers 12:10: ‘When the cloud lifted from above the tent, Miriam’s skin was leprous—it became as white as snow’
Also in modern day language we would say ADAM was conDEMNED in the Bible. But:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=condemn
early 14c., condempner “to blame, censure,” from Old French conDAMNer “to condemn” (11c.), from Latin condemnare “to sentence, doom, blame, disapprove,” from com-, intensive prefix (see com-), + damnare “to harm, damage” (see DAMN)
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=damn
late 13c., “to condemn,” from Old French DAMNer “damn, condemn; convict, blame; injure,” derivative of Latin DAMNare “to adjudge guilty; to doom; to condemn, blame, reject,”
So we come full circle to DAMN. The DAMNed are the DOOMed.
Apropos: EDOM
(another name for Esau and his descendants; also a condiment)
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/123.htm
from link: (same origin as ADOM which means ‘to be red’; compare Assyrian adumatu)
Genesis 25:30
“and Esau said to Jacob, “Please let me have a swallow of that red STUFF there, for I am famished.” Therefore his name was called EDOM.”
Isaiah 34:5
“For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; behold, it descends for judgment upon EDOM, upon the people I have devoted to destruction.” (ESV)
I’m not Christian or an adherent to Judaism or anything like that. But I noticed that Bibles leave certain Biblical words untranslated and that all names in the Bible are words with meanings. So, of course, this simple-minded person with melanin (according to some) started to do independent research. I noticed that word Bible comes from Byblos; a port of arrival for ‘Egyptian’ (really KMT…black land) parchment and that KMT also had deity they called IAH (Yah/Jah/Jahw). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iah So it seemed that the key to understanding possible allegorical meanings was to get at the untranslated names of ‘persons’ mentioned in the Bible. Much of the Bible may not ‘true stories’ but symbolic of certain situations that are different from the religious doctrines that are promulgated. In fact, the religions that are hungry for the blood of ‘heretics’ may be very well have been created to SUPPRESS uncomfortable interpretations. It is interesting that the essentials of the story of Cain/Abel or Esau/Jacob is repeated in fiction too many times to list. Eg.the Tom Cruise movie “Oblivion”, the H.G Wells book “The Time Machine”, the Square game “Final Fantasy VII” (origin of Sephiroth/Jenova) and much much more. The theme is humanoids of divergent origin and character.
Anyway, I’ve gone on long enough. I’m just giving those who are so inclined some things to think about. I’m not saying anything to elicit a reaction from whites (or uncle toms). They would do well not to read. If they’re reading and don’t like it; too bad. If their ancestors actually lied and covered up then the revelation/APOCALYPSIS was destined to be painful for their descendants. So they shouldn’t waste their time typing a complaint. What is important for me as someone who is living in a world that consistently hates, murders, and impoverishes dark people (and hates in direct proportion to the depth of color) is to get to the bottom of that behavior wherever it leads. The level of discomfort that results to whites (small or great) is not a factor. Because the people that caused cultural amnesia will not be interested in the discovery of truth.
Footnote: A couple ‘scholarly’ references to the biological role of melanin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8748085
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18479839
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Some interesting factual information about the biological functioning of Melanin – Origin. Too bad many people commenting here allow their unchallenged beliefs and prejudices to obstruct their assimilation of this knowledge.
I can see you’ve done and continue to do your own personal research in this area. Which has allowed you to reach some of the informed conclusions I also would share.
Great stuff!
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I’ve placed my comment from the “Alligator Bait” post here as the information is probably more relevant to this debate:
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Having more Melanin present in your system does not necessarily make you more superior (Remember EVERYONE has Melanin). If having a bigger brain meant greater or superior intelligence elephants and whales would be far more advanced than any human being on the planet!.
So its not simply about the quantity of Melanin its about the QUALITY of the Melanin you have also. Also, this too is not fixed because it can change over time and be affected by what we ingest, our thoughts and our beliefs. All of these things can affect the biological functioning of Melanin which in turn can effect many processes: physiologically and psychologically within the human body. Not to mention spiritually….
So its a combination of the quantity and quality of Melanin people have and possess and how they make use of it (consciously or otherwise) which determines present and latent capabilities. This is something EVERYONE has the capacity to share in.
What scientific studies have not shown – and white supremacist (race realists) would be at pains to point out if this was the case – is that having LESS Melanin in your system (white people) is proven to be beneficial, healthier or superior in the functioning of the human body. In fact it proves the opposite. White skin being regarded as a genetic mutation. Further deficiencies of melanin in the system which can also lead to other sorts of genetic related aliments.
So the claim that Diversity=Genocide</b. for white people is actually FALSE. It is actually the very thing which could save them their own fears of extinction!
The first step is to embrace the role and function of Melanin in the hue-man system without this appreciation self-inflicted genocide will be guaranteed…That goes for White as well as Black people and POC…
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Abagond
Please can you correct the when you have the chance!
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George,
Have you actually taken the time to do some proper research here from the information and links that have been provided?
Its one thing to tell me I am ignoring modern science when modern science (as well as every other institution in modern society) is tainted by the underpinnings of white supremacist ideology thought and reasoning.
How do you personally as someone inescapably influenced by notions of white superiority account for this bias? Or are you foolish enough to believe Science and the Scientific method are neutral, unbiased and not subject to accusations of racism?
Do you believe Black scholars or scientists have nothing worthwhile to contribute on the topic and study of Melanin?
Are you actually serious about wanting to know more? Or just interested in perpetuating uninformed ignorance on the subject?
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I see George…
So you are not interested in what other Black scholars or scientists have to say? They too are aware of how white supremacist thought in science works. Or are saying only white scientists know how to be objective?
Comments like the above only show the extent of your own limited awareness when it comes to dealing with issues of white superiority. Which, pardon me for stressing, again taints every area of society
Melanin is part of EVERYONE’S chemistry regardless of whether you accept this or not. Even the Genome project should tell you that!
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@George Ryder
Click on the link hidden in his name and read his blog.
Or just this post: http://wordpress.kwamla.com/?p=156
That will probably be enough. It’s going to tell you a lot about his definition of ‘reasonable’. You know, the kind of stuff that’s more trustworthy than that racist “traditional science” nonsense.
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http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_magic/magic_and_the_reptilian_part_of_our_brain-t6782.0.html;wap2=
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@eco
You never give up do you?
Too bad you will just have to re-read all my previous comments to you which obviously are still valid. That is unless you’ve discovered something else of real substance you would like to say?
I see you’ve discovered my blog. 🙂 I would caution you though about going any further and reading it. You might find its factual content is presented in a more reasoned way than you can handle right now. But that’s OK. You can always come back to it when your ready at a later stage. 🙂
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@V8driver
At least that is an insightful link you’ve provided and a willingness to explore the inner workings of the Pineal gland.
I would caution though about taking artificially created Melatonin as it is not the same thing and can have undesired effects.
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@ George
I have had many conversations on this particular Melanin thread which are there for all to see. So my openness or willingness to respond to serious discussion or debate about Melanin cannot be denied.
The information and perspectives I have provided are there to be read and debated.So George you really need to decide who it is wish to be open to having a conversation with?
Is it people like myself? Or is it just yourself? !!!….I can say this because of the nonsense you write like this:
…Only serves to re-enforce your own base prejudices in this area. Everything you have said here is your own interpretation! You cannot find any comments of mine anywhere in this thread (go on try it!) which reflect what you have said there. So why do you insist on projecting these on to moi?
These are your beliefs not mine!. If you wish to have a serious and open conversation about Melanin – like you say you do – then start by doing some proper reading of the information presented here instead of regurgitating your own unresolved white superiority tainted prejudices about Melanin, its role and function in Hue-man biodiversity and our societies.
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@Kwamla
my ‘pinkness’ is something i am going to have to live with, i have no desire to attempt to artificially alter my melatonin levels.
i might have had some ulterior motives with this post?
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eh, tanning? no. that is not something in the same sentence as me, tanning.
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“…Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin…”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728.html
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That article said nothing about genetic environmental adaptation over time…
“…The work suggests that the skin-whitening mutation occurred by chance in a single individual after the first human exodus from Africa, when all people were brown-skinned. That person’s offspring apparently thrived as humans moved northward into what is now Europe, helping to give rise to the lightest of the world’s races…”
And you ask me what I am trying to prove…? Please…
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You would do well to answer your own question George….What does this fact mean to you?
The whole idea of separate “races” is challenged by this discovery, as the article goes on to say, How can white people exist as a separate race when the evidence points to white skin being a genetic mutation from Black skinned people?
It is white people who separate themselves out from others and insist on labeling themselves as the “superior race”. But on what basis? If they cannot even classify themselves as an original or indigenous people?
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@Kwamla
I mentioned your blog because I think it should be used as a frame of reference whenever you are talking about science. By ‘science’ I mean the thing you call “conventional science”. Your blog shows what exactly hides behind those (reasonable sounding) slogans about accepting alternative science, and says a lot about your scientific literacy.
It should be a mandatory read for anyone who wants to discuss science with you. It might save them a lot of time.
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eco
Thanks Eco..I think so too!
Personally though, I would give yourself a year or two when what you think of as “alternative science” gets co-opted into what you understand as “conventional science” . You may need the time to fully comprehend or grasp it!
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George,
“…I thought you were trying to separate race through melanin content.
I have misunderstood you completely, sorry. …”
This is not the first time you’ve had to re-think you’re comprehension of my comments on a particular topic. So perhaps you might like to consider them more fully next time before commenting. It would save us both needless, superfluous commenting and explanations.
There is a lot of information in this particular thread on Melanin not just supplied by me (see Origins contributions too). Many of your objections and questions have already been raised and dealt with in most of my comments.
So not for the first time of saying this. It would be a good idea to start reading from there.
Nevertheless, you’re apologies are accepted…
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@Kwamla
“Personally though, I would give yourself a year or two when what you think of as “alternative science” gets co-opted into what you understand as “conventional science” . You may need the time to fully comprehend or grasp it!”
Good one! The term ‘alternative science’ reminds me of an old joke about ‘alternative medicine’: “What do you call ‘alternative medicine’ that works? Medicine.”
You may be crazy, but you are not stupid. You must know melanin “theory” will not be accepted into the realm of “conventional science” (a.k.a. ‘real science’ or ‘science’). It clearly violates fundamental principals of scientific methodology.
(“Unfortunately, trying to understand either subject purely from a ‘material’ or ‘solid’ ’cause and effect’ perspective will Fail!”)
You are trying to present this nonsense as if it was supported by a significant number of black scientists/scholars, but it’s just a handful of loons.
Even on this blog, in the worldview bubble it creates, you are clearly hitting a glass ceiling. Your ideas can attract the usual crazies and some people who can’t notice the real implications of the things you are presenting as a reasonable, unbiased thesis, but the majority of the Abagonds and Kings and Legions of this world are out of your reach. Such people will be able to see you are pushing race realism and they will not support it regardless which group it favors.
Melanin “theory” is light years away from being accepted as ‘science’. It isn’t even particularly popular amongst regular black people, not to mention black scientists. It’s actually worse at pretending to be science than white race realism. White race realists at least know they should stay the hell away from metaphysics and focus on misinterpreting hard data.
Since I don’t believe humanity will reject fact-based rational thinking in the foreseeable future I think melanin “theory” will remain in the pseudoscience realm it now shares with young Earth creationism, astrology, homeopathy, new age spirituality, and the people who believe the world is run by extraterrestrials. It’s where it belongs.
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co
This is probably one of your more reasoned and accessible comments.
Of course I don’t agree with your accessment or reasoning. Its woefully lacking in up to date knowledge of science, its philosophies and its discoveries.
But I will have to come back and address these points when I have some more time…..
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@ eco
While your assessment here probably has some truth. The reason for this is something which escapes the majority of people who are (like yourself) still locked into the traditionally taught science based dogma.
This is why I can mention, as I have done on this thread, someone like Rupert Sheldrake who you probably have not heard of. Yet is someone who challenges directly the dogmatic paradigm of science so many people unwittingly adhere to. Someone who is credited with many awards and respect in the broader scientific community.
http://www.sheldrake.org/about-rupert-sheldrake
Consider the following homework for you also to update yourself on how what you think of science has been challenged to shift beyond the confines of its limiting boundaries.
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/08/10-scientific-studies-that-prove-consciousness-can-alter-our-physical-material-world/
What you term as “Melanin Theory” are simply Melanin FACTS you are not yet ready (along with many others) to fully appreciate and understand. Even mainstream science will soon have to come around to facing this.
Remember you heard it from me first !
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@Kwamla
“The reason for this is something which escapes the majority of people who are (like yourself) still locked into the traditionally taught science based dogma.”
Having a higher standard of proof than you do is not like believing in dogma. You are talking about people who would be willing to agree with you if there was sufficient evidence to support your ideas. They are not closed-minded. They aren’t willing to suspend critical thinking and accept anecdotal evidence.
For example, when a rational person reads this:
http://wordpress.kwamla.com/?p=31
it makes them wonder why a “multi-dimensional being who speaks (…) from what we perceive as the future” keeps telling us stuff on the intellectual level of “The Secret”, instead of leading us to scientific breakthroughs. Let me guess – we are not ready…
Let’s check out your links.
“Rupert Sheldrake (…) Someone who is credited with many awards and respect in the broader scientific community”
and faced a lot of criticism for making claims about consciousness that are not supported by experiments.
“Consider the following homework”
OK. The first study mentioned in the article is about “The Quantum Double Slit Experiment”. An old cliche, the kind of stuff ‘new agers’ love to misinterpret even though it had been debunked decades ago. The observer does alter the quantum world, but that’s because our ways of taking measurements tend to disturb the thing we are measuring. The quantum world doesn’t care whether it’s being disturbed by a conscious human or simply by an unsupervised machine and acts in the same way in both cases. The presence of consciousness doesn’t change anything.
The article claims that there is a study that shows consciousness is a factor. The study was published “in the peer-reviewed journal Physics Essays”.
http://www.physicsessays.com/
From the Physics Essays site:
“Articles submitted for publication will be reviewed by scientific peers. Realizing the interchangeable roles of authors and reviewers, the positive aspect of the reviewing process will be retained by providing the authors with the reviewers’ comments. Authors should judge which part of the reviewers’ suggestions are appropriate to improve the quality of his or her paper. The editor, who is responsible for the Journal, will allow a large degree of freedom to the authors in this process. ”
That’s not peer-review. Peer-review is when your peers advise the editor whether your article is suitable for publication. Here they just offer advice to the author and the author can simply ignore them.
OK, let’s open the pdf file and check out the study.
The first three authors work at the “Institute of Noetic Sciences” in California.
http://www.noetic.org/about/overview/
Not recognized as an academic institution. Obviously. The place offers courses like: “Mindful Motherhood”, “The Noetic Science behind ‘The Lost Symbol’ ” (“The Lost Symbol” is a Dan Brown book) and a “Conscious Aging Facilitator Training Program”…
So a bunch of people, who aren’t really physicists, who work at a school, that isn’t really a school, have conducted supposedly groundbreaking research and decided to publish it in a magazine that offers advice instead of normal peer-review… Yeah, I think I’ll save myself some time and stop reading at this point.
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Sorry eco,
But you really are dabbling into areas you have no real awareness and comprehension of. Certainly the topics covered in my blog are beyond the basic understanding of most people here. This is why you simply don’t “get it”!
Its requires a suspension of initial strongly held views about the nature of our world, our reality. Something which your continual comments here prove you incapable of doing. It has nothing to do with what is considered “rational!” At the level of quantum mechanics rationality goes out the window!
If you are not ready to accept this now readily accepted proven scientific FACT then you are not ready…. Period! You are not ready to assess big issues like “Consciousness”. So please stop trying to convince yourself you can!
Sorry eco, but you are out of your depth and your comments testify to this. I am not here to convince you of anything!. I am quite happy and content for you to believe everything I say here (and on my blog) is nonsense and crazy.
I have given you examples and links of what other scientists are saying and doing. Yet you are unable to make sense of their work without ridiculing it.
You are like Issac Newton arguing with Albert Eisenstein about the nature of how we should view the world ..
Whose version or world view should we choose? Which one is right? If you are still at this level of analysis then you always will be! You are stuck!
If you believe Science should be followed and.practiced simply.by sticking to one dogmatic set of beliefs – excluding all others – then you will forever be stuck without any hope of change.
New discoveries outside those set beliefs will elude you. You will not understand or see them…Hence new scientific progress (like FREE ENERGY – look it up) will elude you too
Good luck eco with maintaining that world view. Do not attempt to understand anything about the proper functioning of Melanin. It will only frustrate you…
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I don’t see why it matters if IONS is an academic institution or not. I don’t have time to do a bunch of investigating but I see no claim by them to be a school at their website. Anyway, part of the social function of schools is to reinforce orthodoxy, I don’t say schools aren’t valuable, they are; but they can be restrictive and very orthodox.
If it doesn’t matter if they are a school or not their actual mission should be taken into account. From a cursory vantage point (my own) they seem like an institutional home for professional scientists doing good work and happen to be studying something that will be career suicide in the mainstream institutions. Of course, it should not be ignored that IONS could possibly be a home to crackpots doing shitty work too. And finally there could be plenty of kooky “fans” of IONS. All those things are possible/likely but it doesn’t prove that someone connected with IONS isn’t doing good work. The details have to be looked at. Similarly, an actual academic school could still have scientists committing fraud, and they sometimes do. So, school or not, who cares?
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@Legion
“All those things are possible/likely but it doesn’t prove that someone connected with IONS isn’t doing good work.”
Yeah, the fact that IONS and their staff have terrible credentials doesn’t prove they couldn’t do research that would revolutionize science. It just makes it really, really, REALLY unlikely.
I would give them more of a chance if it wasn’t for the fact that their experiment is something that has been done to death in the last 3-4 decades and I actually bothered to familiarize myself with this kind of stuff when I first heard of it about 10 years ago.
Connecting consciousness to quantum physics isn’t exactly a new idea. It’s pretty much as old as quantum physics is. I think it’s more than a coincidence, that the people who dedicate their lives to physics, and study from, and work with other physicists at places that are known for attracting the brightest scientific minds never seen to get the odd results. It’s always the new-agers who get the results that could revolutionize science, but they never do, because they get debunked again and again.
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Interesting dialog ,who do you trust ,the usual suspects when they champion “conventional science” or black people when they misapply “conventional science”.
Of course neither ,Dr.welsing should have never called her hypothesizes a theory ,by its nature and the rules I don’t think any one person can ever generate a theory .
However she covers so much involving biology,history sociology as well as psychology , I know theirs a few babies in the bathwater.
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I have blue eyes and mousy blonde hair and yet tan easily than most people even those with dark and a brown eyes and i hardly ever burn and never wear sun block – My mom have olive skin and brown eyes my dad had blue eyes and sandy hair but i have higher than average melanin ? People think i use tanning lotion or sun beds and think me very vain for a man but all i do is go is like any one else
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Some so called “…The Melanin Theory…” which it really isn’t! For anyone interested in knowing or finding out more about this ubiquitous element…
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Reblogged this on My World, Your World & Our World and commented:
What some have called “…The Melanin Theory…” which it really isn’t! …
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I liked everything in this post except the Welsing reference. Nobody takes her seriously. And if you read The Isis Papers, she also has some disgusting homophobic views, in addition to her pseudoscientific claims about melanin.
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Could a lack of meiinan be the reason white man rob rap kill and steal people s natural resources around the world no other race of man got that kind of history
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When you stated:
“Tanning is where the skin produces more melanin to protect itself.”
Be aware that:
Tanned skin is damaged skin.
In 2014 the US Surgeon General announced a skin cancer call to action which reads:
“UV exposure stimulates melanocytes to produce melanin, often resulting in a tan or sunburn, both of which indicate overexposure and damage to the skin, skin cells, and DNA within those skin cells.33,34 This damage can lead to cancer.”
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/calls/prevent-skin-cancer/
There has been an over 200% increase in skin cancer in the past 30 years.
http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/deadly-skin-cancer-cases-jump-200-percent-1973-n167966
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