“African Queen” (2013) is a fashion editorial by Sebastian Kim in the March 2013 issue of the French magazine Numéro. The model is 16-year-old Ondria Hardin, a blonde-haired, blue-eyed white American girl, whose skin they made brown:
This is not the first time for Numéro. Here is white French model Constance Jablonski in 2010:
Nor is it Kim’s first time. Here is white American model Jacquelyn Jablonski in 2010:
Fun Facts:
- There are black models.
- Models at the last New York Fashion Week: 82% white, 6% black.
- Models on Numéro covers: 97.9% white.
- Models in Numéro editorials: 94.4% white (last three years).
Numéro said in part:
The artistic statement of the photographer Sebastian Kim, author of this editorial, is in line with his previous photographic creations, which insist on the melting pot and the mix of cultures, the exact opposite of any skin color based discrimination. Numéro has always supported the artistic freedom of the talented photographers who work with the magazine to illustrate its pages, and has not took part in the creation process of this editorial.
For its part, Numéro Magazine, which has the utmost respect for this photographer’s creative work, firmly excludes that the latest may have had, at any moment, the intention to hurt readers’ sensitivity, whatever their origin.
Numéro Magazine considers that it has regularly demonstrated its deep attachment to the promotion of different skin-colored models. For instance, the next issue of Numéro for Man on sale on 15th march has the black model Fernando Cabral on the cover page, and the current Russian edition’s cover of our magazine features the black model Naomi Campbell on its cover. …
Considering the turmoil caused by this publication, the Management of Numéro Magazine would like to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by this editorial.
Kim:
I would like to apologize for any misunderstanding around my recent photos for Numero France. It was never my intention (nor Numero’s) to portray a black woman in this story. Our idea and concept for this fashion shoot was based on 60’s characters of Talitha Getty, Verushka and Marissa Berenson with middle eastern and Moroccan fashion inspiration. We at no point attempted to portray an African women by painting her skin black. We wanted a tanned and golden skin to be showcased as part of the beauty aesthetic of this shoot.
It saddens me that people would interpret this as a mockery of race. I believe that the very unfortunate title “African Queen” (which I was not aware of prior to publication) did a lot to further people’s misconceptions about these images. It was certainly never my intention to mock or offend anyone and I wholeheartedly apologize to anyone who was offended.
Sincerely,
Sebastian Kim
As if brownface makes it better.
Kim’s work appears in Vogue, i-D, Harper’s Bazaar UK, The New Yorker, W, etc.
To review: Finger pointing, artistic freedom, colour-blindness, tokenism, “never my intention”, “apologize to anyone who”, oversensitive readers, the works. But no admission of guilt, no promise to change. Standard white fauxpology.
Sources: Jezebel, Huffington Post (has full text of the apologies), The Gloss, The Root.
See also:
Maybe Spike Lee can film Annie or James Bond in whiteface and then say he did not mean to offend anyone. See how that goes down.
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Some think racism is only in the South or the white working-class or back in the 1950s. Stuff like this shows that it goes on even at the top levels of society in the most cosmopolitan cities in 2013.
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^^ LMAO
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Ridiculous, this is not evocative of Talitha Getty at all. It does demonstrate how racist the fashion industry is and how they would rather paint a white model black than give a black model any work. i no longer support this industry in any way, shape or form.
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Of course his intention wasn’t to portray an actual brown skinned African woman, they just wanted to play dress dolly up with a white girl for white consumption. He says the title is unfortunate, I would like to know what they would have called it given the imagery. I like how these artists seem to think their work comes from and exists within some kind of vacuum and should not be criticized (at least not about that).
And I have to say, using sixteen year old girls slathered in makeup to sell fashion to women is a special kind of creepy, not that it’s new.
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Sebastian Kim is full of crap.
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Kim said this:
It was never my intention (nor Numero’s) to portray a black woman in this story.
I think this is the distasteful reality about this. He wasn’t even thinking about Black women or Black people. Whites and many others don’t ever have to think about Black people. Black people are not really in their inner world. They can afford to live their lives and never think about Black sensibilities. In my experience, lots of White people and others who aren’t Black rarely come into contact with Blacks and when they do, it’s only surface contact, like in a store, at school or work. Most of that contact is limited and polite,nothing in-depth. There are only a few places where a few of them really find out how some Blacks feel inside and even with the best intentions, they most often don’t understand because they view life differently.
Obviously, to many Whites and others, everything in the world is up for grabs, and that includes a brown or black skin shade. Kim needed black skin for his photo shoot, so he got it because he believes that it’s his to use as he wishes. The same goes for cool Black speech, Black music, Black style or anything else that Blacks consider theirs. Whites in general believe it’s theirs to use. They see nothing wrong with “acting black.”
On the other hand, sometimes when Blacks are viewed by other Blacks as mimicking Whites in the way we talk, our values, behavior, we’re accused of “acting White.” The question is why more Blacks don’t feel that everything in the world is up for grabs, too. Instead of expecting Whites and others to grab at less, why don’t Blacks these days grab at more.
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When I came back from the US to France back in 1992, I discovered the new fashion: “Black is mode”. This was the title of the French youth magazine “20 ans”. Then, the models were real dark-skinned young women. But it was already a sign. Then politicians in France showed it was a fact, it was back. It corresponded to an increase in the migration of sub-saharian
This “African Queen” thing is a sign. A sign that the whole BS is back.
African “queen” ? Then all African women are queens, because the stuff she is wearing is African fashion. It has nothing to do with queendom.
What really gets me is to imagine all these people on the photo shoot set, all getting busy preparing the model, “painting” her, repairing the “paint” after each pic… Doesn’t ANYONE realize what’s wrong all this time ? And that young woman, nobody asks her, what are you doing ? Why are you doing this ? I mean NO ONE says anything ? These people are sick. Racism really makes them sick.
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I meant “sub-saharian people”.
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Also, the “African Queen” aspect is a way to tell “whites” that the world hasn’t changed. Maybe to reassure them ?
It is in continuity with the affirmation that -and in that case they were real queens- Ancient Egypt’s queen were NOT “black”.
Just in case we had forgotten about it, this is a reminder that in order to be queens, “black” women have to be “white” inside. Just as the Hamitic legend tells: people like the Tutsi of Rwanda had to be “white” somehow because they were different and seemed to “rule” back in the 19th century when the Europeans started to decided they would rule there.
This is also a reminder of the perversion (in the sense that it puts everything upside-down, constantly lies about reality) of racism. It makes things very complex to grasp and to explain.
They are going to say that it was a way to pay their respect to African women, for instance, when everyone in their right mind knows the best way to pay your respect to someone is let them express themselves.
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My take on this:
1. Whites and other poorly-melaninated peoples tell us, by the media, how they feel about us and how they feel about themselves. Having said that, this “artistic” shoot tells us that, once again, they are not satisfied with their lack of melanin.
2. They are obsessed with us.
3. We are “foreign” and “exotic” to them even though they desperately wish to emulate us.
4. They are obsessed with us.
5. The fact that they market to a predominately white audience but love our skin tones speaks volumes about their envy.
6. They are obsessed with us.
7. Asians have become the “honourary white” and will eventually take on the characteristics of their colonizers.
8. They are obsessed with us.
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Unfortunately I am unsurprised at this. It seems to compound the concerns of many BW – that they are deemed ‘acceptably’ beautiful if their features somehow resemble those generally associated with European ancestry.
This is a society where my wife still cant walk in to any hairdressers and get her hair done, where the local Boots outlet is still scant in terms of the make up they provide for WoC and even then the ranges ‘limit’ what shades they have where the darker shades are often ‘not in stock’. Meanwhile, most WP can walk into any afro hairdressers/barbers and get their hair done and of course, there are extensive make up brands and products for their skin.
Maybe major cities in the UK are different but why should you have to travel for these luxuries. It is still p*ss poor when there a quarter of the residents in the locality are people of colour.
*SMH*
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The editorial should have the disclaimer: “No Africans were employed in the making of this editorial.”
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It was never my intention (nor Numero’s) to portray a black woman in this story.
I think this is the distasteful reality about this. He wasn’t even thinking about Black women or Black people. Whites and many others don’t ever have to think about Black people. Black people are not really in their inner world. They can afford to live their lives and never think about Black sensibilities.
Kim would have us believe , on behalf of the fashion industry, that Black women are such non-entities that the thought of portraying a black woman in this spread is ludicrous. I don’t believe it . The fashion industry’s constantly courting black street fashion and black men and women to see how we translate style and fashion. But it is always @ their behest, whenthey need fresh new ideas, never benefits us it simply exploits black people and culture.
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@Omnipresent–
It seems to compound the concerns of many BW – that they are deemed ‘acceptably’ beautiful if their features somehow resemble those generally associated with European ancestry.
Black people reinforce this every single day. Let’s be honest. Why cut Black people slack?
I get tired of reading where Blacks accuse Black women in the West who supposedly rule Black communities for this. They say these Black women teach their sons and daughters to prefer light skin and straight hair of White women, but this light skin preference for women also happens in Africa where the women are still undisputedly ruled by men. African women surely can’t put that in place. So, this preference for the these features and skin can’t be blamed on Black women there, but it’s entrenched there. Bleaching cream is very popular.
I just looked at the “Most Beautiful Black Women’s According to Black People” list here on this site and only a couple of the women there (Naomi and Gabrielle) are standout darker women. The rest are lighter brown and light.
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@deepdkchocolate–
Black women are such non-entities that the thought of portraying a black woman in this spread is ludicrous. I don’t believe it . The fashion industry’s constantly courting black street fashion and black men and women to see how we translate style and fashion. But it is always @ their behest, whenthey need fresh new ideas, never benefits us it simply exploits black people and culture.
Apparently, on the social, political, and financial fronts, Blacks are non-entities, not taken seriously, or are mere afterthoughts to most Whites and honorary Whites because they know they can ignore or insult Blacks and Blacks will still bring their money to them.
Would you respect people who you could treat like that, yet they still brought their money to you? You might be that nice to do that, but that’s not the way most people are. Most people respect people who they have to make an effort to please.
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Apparently, on the social, political, and financial fronts, Blacks are non-entities, not taken seriously, or are mere afterthoughts to most Whites and honorary Whites because they know they can ignore or insult Blacks and Blacks will still bring their money to them.
Would you respect people who you could treat like that, yet they still brought their money to you? You might be that nice to do that, but that’s not the way most people are. Most people respect people who they have to make an effort to please.
DDC:Are we? I don’t believe that. I believe that the black race was and still is a force to be reckoned with on many fronts. Again, they would have US believe we are not.
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@Truthbetold
You say :
“1. Whites and other poorly-melaninated peoples tell us, by the media, how they feel about us and how they feel about themselves. Having said that, this “artistic” shoot tells us that, once again, they are not satisfied with their lack of melanin.”
I think this is the “fashionable trend” of the moment. All this talk about “whites” feeling “envy” because of their “lack of melanin” is something that has become like a “must-say” whenever talking about “whites” and “whiteness” comes up.
I personally think it’s a very wrong perception of things.
For several reasons: “whites” as in ‘those who actually believe they are white and want to be’, that is racists, couldn’t care less about being dark-skinned. They LOVE their light skin. They think it’s a sign of superiority. They would like it to be “white and shiny” and actually think it is.
Those who are searching for other ways to be something in this world may be looking for it in what you are describing. Maybe. But.
Biologically, strictly biologically and physiologically speaking, the fact of having less (and not NONE, because albino people “lack” it) melanin in one’s skin is not “lack”, it is the result of adaptation to less sunny climates. It is the only way to produce vitamin D and others things to make sure you’re healthy. It’s a thousand-year necessary process. Some peoples like the Inuits balanced the lack of vitamin D with a specific diet and their skin remained dark.
Why I think your take on this is misled and misleading is that you totally miss the political aspect of things by dwelling on the “biological”.
“Whites” (the racist ones) do not give a damn about melanin or no melanin UNLESS it is their interest to play with it.
If you think they are showing envy here, you totally miss the manipulative aspect of politics that I talked about above. They WANT other “whites” to think that “African queens” are/were not *really* African. They WANT other “whites” to believe that Cleopatra looked like Elizabeth Taylor. They WANT other “whites” to believe that Queen Tyie was a “leucoderm” and that the way she looked was just “a way to represent her status as queen” (French Egyptologist in French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, in 1993, to which I replied with a disclaimer).
If you think that racists are interested in looking like you, you are totally mistaken.
They want to POSSESS you (as Jorbia said above “grab”). Yes, that they want. To the point they literally think they can “possess” you, ENTER your BODY. And make you do what they wish (blackface).
Dr Cress-Welding’s and other Afro-centrists’ theories may display some interesting points (I don’t deny that), but their vision of the biological as being superior to the political totally obliterates the essence of racism: it USES the biological (make-believe biological) to press political points. By doing the same, Dr CW and others are following the same dangerous path and fail to explain how racism MANIPULATES us (all).
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@deepdarkchocolate–
My point is not whether we’re a force to be reckoned with, but that we, in aggregate, are not showing that.
My point is that if Blacks had shown other magazines and businesses that they can’t ignore or insult us without financially feeling our fury, the word would have gotten around by now. These kinds of constant insults would not continue. Black people have to put strategies in place and stop thinking that angry words, backed by nothing, will change anything.
For instance, if we could implement a strategy in the U.S. that whenever we’re insulted like this, then all magazine sales here are guaranteed to drop for the following 3 months. Magazine companies worldwide would hear about this, and more of them would try to become highly pleasing to Blacks. This would happen silently. All Blacks wouldn’t have to stop buying. Only a significant portion of them would need to do it. Blacks could easily make this happen because we don’t have to buy magazines.
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The “melanin theory” thing has its “nice” aspects: it makes people feel good.
It gives simple and straight explanations such as “it’s because of their skin/ their lack of melanin that they are like that”.
These theorists take a dangerous path, because the very focus of “race” and defining people according to physical appearance in the 17th and 18th centuries was the supposed “fact” that their skin/hair/humors (body fluids) actually contained their character. That their physical attributes determined what they had in their brains and therefore what they thought.
Taking the path of racism (as a “science”) to fight racism may not be the best one can think of.
Racism has always been an ideology, and this magazine and its “fashion pages” simply contribute to the ideology.
Continuing to think in term of “race” does the same. It feeds it. For free.
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@Bulanik. This makes me think of the ‘mish-mash’ you find in movies like Pirates of the Caribbean”, where you can see stuff from the Caribbean, Africa, India, Oceania, all mixed together….
“And, I like the supposed African Queen’s shoes, too.
They look like Indian Mughal-era or “jooties”…
Anything will do, mash it in, as long as it’s “exotic”.”
Right on point.
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Sometimes I wonder why companies who pull this crap bother with the fauxpology at all. They wouldn’t have done it if they actually cared, and their “apologies” are always laughably transparent and coded.
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Ergh.
That is my primary emotional response to this.
My knowledge of this sort of “fashion” is that it’s often needlessly bizarre for no logical reason at all.
And I think that’s pretty much what most white americans reactions are. To them it’s all just very strange and stupid, and when something like this comes up it’s just seen as confirmation that the “Fashion” industry is batshit insane. But they don’t really care since they don’t expect the Fashion industry to behave in a remotely sensible manner.
That and I don’t think most Americans aren’t really invested in this sort of “fashion”.
But really, I pretty much expect the “Fashion” industry to regularly come up with some offensive crap. Perhaps more often than they come up with things people will actually wear, though I must admit I have not extensively researched this.
This is just what they(morons) do because they think that doing stupid things like this is artistic or something. When anyone with a proper neuron or two just stares blankly in awe at how someone could be so obliviously imbecilic.
But yeah, this is incredibly racist and any Non-Fashion person can see that quite clearly.
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Deepdkchocolate said: “I believe that the black race was and still is a force to be reckoned with on many fronts. Again, they would have US believe we are not.”
Exactly, this articles and a lot of other media tricks are meant to divert us ALL from that fact (even though I don’t believe there is a “black race”, I would say the African diaspora). “Whites” are as manipulated as the rest, even much more, because it is easier to manipulate people who apparently (not in terms of mental health, though) benefit from the manipulation than those who are the victims of it.
Your point is: don’t believe them, ignore them and continue what you are doing. Best way to go.
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@tehnoun
Why would they bother ? They are part of the system and benefit from it. Why shoot themselves in the foot ?
Racism is about pure and simple power, not about apologies or caring ! Has never been.
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@Cornilia–
other Afro-centrists’ theories may display some interesting points (I don’t deny that), but their vision of the biological as being superior to the political totally obliterates the essence of racism
The political is obviously superior. On the other hand, I think that many Whites obviously believe that browner skin is beautiful, but so what?
It’s my theory that some of the Afro-centrists keep the focus on melanin because it’s provocative, mysterious, and gives Blacks something to feel they have that Whites don’t have nearly as much. That’s okay, but my gripe is that barely anyone is keeping Blacks focused simultaneously on getting power or using their power strategically when it’s the imbalance of White power that causes the injustices and suffering. I’m not saying that immense power is a good or bad thing. No moral judgments. But if it’s a smashing hammer against you, you need to learn how to counter or manipulate that hammer away from you. IMO, many Black people are a part of the hammer and keep saying with their behavior, in various ways, that they will remain a part of the hammer until White people stop being a part of the hammer.
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@Abagond
Black folk should stay mindful of the fact that whitewomen have been the primary beneficiaries of “White Supremacy” on this planet. Their white forefathers enslaved and raped another race of women. Because of that inhumanity, they enjoy so-called white priviledge. In other words, the wealth and power that whitewomen enjoy on this planet was not created by them, and they know it. Whitewomen know what their white fathers and brothers did to blackwomen. A blonde-haired, blue-eyed white female impersonating blackwomen is an example of “White Female Guilt & Envy.” Whites are losing their grip on power and wealth, and it’s causing them to backtrack. What if we hadn’t enslaved black people? What if we hadn’t colonized Africa? What if we hadn’t assaulted black womanhood? Whitewomen have always envied blackwomen. The envy that has always been inside whitewomen is coming out for all to see. This episode is just one of many that highlight the obvious.
GoTeam
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Cornlia: Your point is: don’t believe them, ignore them and continue what you are doing. Best way to go.
DDC: Bingo!
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I wonder how Sebastian Kim would feel if a white model was painted yellow, had a bowl cut,wearing a Kung Fu outfit and exaggerated buck teeth. Would he find it exotic and artsy? Somehow I doubt it.
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@Tyrone
Great post brother! You nailed it again!lol
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@ Cornila
“…Dr Cress-Welding’s and other Afro-centrists’ theories may display some interesting points (I don’t deny that), but their vision of the biological as being superior to the political totally obliterates the essence of racism: it USES the biological (make-believe biological) to press political points. By doing the same, Dr CW and others are following the same dangerous path and fail to explain how racism MANIPULATES us (all)…”
And…
“…Racism has always been an ideology, and this magazine and its “fashion pages” simply contribute to the ideology…”
While I use to have some degree of sympathy with this primary view of racism being simply an ideology I’ve since, through research, found this explanation to be only partially satisfactory. It fails to account for a number of observations. One of which this latest post by abagond speaks directly to: The obsessional craving for the representation of “whiteness” in an equalised, spiritualised and soulful pictorial format.
So it was no real surprise to have an idealised “white” model made up to look like a typical idealised and honoured African Queen. A clever, but highly disingenuous, pictorial illustration that conveys two things:
(1) A covert envy and appreciation of the African female form with all its regal and “Blackness” as perceived by the white publishers
(2) An attempt at accentuating and displaying the European female form at this same level of perceived adoration and idolised perfected form.
Racism as an ideology needs to have some fundamental basis in our experiential reality for it to believed to be true. The biological and significant role melanin plays (most of which science does not widely publicise) is key here.
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Has there ever been such a thing as a photo shoot of non-European origin people in whiteface?
The only whiteface I can ever remember seeing is Godfrey Cambridge in Watermelon Man.
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@deepdarkchocolate–
My point is not whether we’re a force to be reckoned with, but that we, in aggregate, are not showing that.
DDC:We’re not?
My point is that if Blacks had shown other magazines and businesses that they can’t ignore or insult us without financially feeling our fury, the word would have gotten around by now. These kinds of constant insults would not continue. Black people have to put strategies in place and stop thinking that angry words, backed by nothing, will change anything.
DDC:The White power structure will continue to do this because they don’t feel there is anything wrong with it. My question is why view it as an insult? Whites derive a lot of satisfaction and pleasure from our discomfiture every time something like this is published in one of their ridiculous rags. Shows we r stillvery much dependent upon them.
For instance, if we could implement a strategy in the U.S. that whenever we’re insulted like this, then all magazine sales here are guaranteed to drop for the following 3 months. Magazine companies worldwide would hear about this, and more of them would try to become highly pleasing to Blacks. This would happen silently. All Blacks wouldn’t have to stop buying. Only a significant portion of them would need to do it. Blacks could easily make this happen because we don’t have to buy magazines.
DDC: But they would still be in control of how we r viewed and how we view ourselves.
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~Abagond – Thanks for posting this!
Wow, these comments have been so insightful. This situation is not new, it’s pretty sad.
And I agree with Truthbetold, Tyrone and any other person that speaks of a weird “color worship” if you will, of dark skin. I think that it comes in the realization of the fact that, at least in America, whites clearly lack any discernible culture. NO real “homegrown” value system or traditions (to be proud of, anyways). The history of whites in this country has consisted of “othering” EVERYBODY else. While simultaneously doctoring up the history books, spreading religion as a means of control — and I could really go on…
But my point is to speak to the INCREDIBLE resiliency of blacks in America. Take our two finger snap and “you go girl” and we will create something else. There is nothing you can “steal” or appropriate for monetary gain that we won’t just re-create for ourselves. No matter HOW MANY TIMES whites have done this, (now they just fund the artists and buy out the companies) we remain ultimate “originators.”
And with digital globalization of communications, they still scramble around to get a white face with those “full lips, wide hips and apple bottom to put at the top of the search engines. They saturate these spaces with bits and pieces of our true nature on their chosen “canvas” of the month.
On the flip side of this, as Jorbia has stated, we need to see the value in our inherit creativity and become more protective of our traditions in music, dance, etc. and the ability to create wealth from it if we choose and not “sell out.”
Now, as I have daughters, this is where my real concern lies: As we continue to promote (as black parents) the perpetual tolerance and universal acceptance of other cultures of people, especially when it comes to dealing with whites and white racism why do I have to keep answering questions about long, blonde, hair and light eyes? You think kids don’t see a lack of melanin on TV and in movies although it’s a staple of everything they know and love at home?
I am disgusted every time I see some AAVE corporate slogan with a white face, some super McWhite character say something “black” or any number of messages sent across the airwaves to our kids with that white stamp of approval like really light skinned black girls with only the dark skinned token male on a lot of these “kids” shows?
These aren’t chance happenings, imo.
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I come back to this site and once again I see Jorbia being intellectually dishonest.
Both America and Africa are managed and run by men. SOCIALLY, though black women in Africa are known for ruling these communities. To a much greater degree than black women do in America, when you look at history. If you weren’t flat out dishonest, then you wouldn’t have ignored that factor, in order to try and shift the blame off of where it belongs.
Try again.
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Kwamla said: Racism as an ideology needs to have some fundamental basis in our experiential reality for it to believed to be true. The biological and significant role melanin plays (most of which science does not widely publicise) is key here.
~ Kwamla well said. There is no mistake as to why melanin theory is not widely publicized. This modern scientists love the “facts and evidence” to back of claims. Why not give this any weight? (sarcasm off)
Cornelia said: The “melanin theory” thing has its “nice” aspects: it makes people feel good.
It gives simple and straight explanations such as “it’s because of their skin/ their lack of melanin that they are like that”.
~While I have nodded at many of the points you’ve made here, this one I just think has way more teeth than just “feel good.” As a real life example – why does this country try so hard to hide real, scientific facts on the origin of modern astronomy, astrology and spirituality as it all hails from Africa? It even minimized blacks own contributions beyond slavery to the building of this “great” country! It credits art, music, astrology, advanced physics and math to Europeans as the “firsts to discover.” They literally stop at acknowledging Africa as the place of the oldest human remains.That is about it.
Why not entertain the “melanin theory” and debunk it publicly than to bury or ignore the research? Could it be that it displaces whites as the center of the universe?
Could it be that they really wouldn’t be able to debunk much about the research without awakening curiosity and pride in a people you have (for centuries) worked to keep enslaved mind and spirit?
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@ Kwamla
Love your site! I am watching the vids by Dr Valentine and book marking the reading materials. And I already have about 4 of Delores Cannon’s books. It’s all very fascinating and exciting to un-learn and re-learn.
SK
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@DDC
“For instance, if we could implement a strategy in the U.S. that whenever we’re insulted like this, then all magazine sales here are guaranteed to drop for the following 3 months. Magazine companies worldwide would hear about this, and more of them would try to become highly pleasing to Blacks. This would happen silently. All Blacks wouldn’t have to stop buying. Only a significant portion of them would need to do it. Blacks could easily make this happen because we don’t have to buy magazines.”
This is what I’ve always said. We are not a powerless people. The problem is we misuse the power we have. We have to work together as a black collective force. Hit these people where it hurts—their wallets. We shouldn’t support anything(tv,films,magazines)that insults,degrades or dehumanizes us as a people. Black people know how to organize–our problem is mobilization.
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@SugarKiss
Great response SK! I have noticed that same trend on these Disney shows. They persist with that “light/dark skin” colorism game. It’s old and tired. And they want to brainwash our children to hate their unique beauty. These so called “kid shows ” are sick and demonic. They know exactly what they’re doing with these shows.
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NOTHINGS EVER OFF LIMITS TOO THE CAUCUS ASIAN NEANDERTAL SPECIE.
ATTEMPTING TO TRANSFORM A PALE NO SOUL BOYISH GENETICALLY RECESSIVE CAUCASIAN FE-MALE (NEANDERTAL) INTO THE DIVINE STATION OF MY DIVINE BLACK DIGNIFIED ANCIENT MATRIARCHAL QUEEN MOTHER IS DEFINITELY WORTHY OF A CURSE.
. .
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@ SK
I’m sure you know about this one, but this is the latest incident cultural appropriation. I love how Melissa Harris-Perry commentary to the public on this latest craze of the “Manhattan” Shake, lol.
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In my experience, and I’ve lived mostly all my life in one of the highest classes when I lived outside the U.S., the people in that class don’t look at things in terms of whether it’s “right” or “wrong” or “fair” or “unfair” to others. They view anything only in terms of whether it’s will further their goals or improve their bottom line.
These are not bad people and they wouldn’t admit it, but people who they consider lower down are not considered important or they’re afterthoughts. Most of the time, they’re oblivious to those others as people like them because they don’t know them. They’re only interested in the thoughts and feelings of others in their class.
Black people in the U.S. have not demonstrated that they’re willing to impact the bottom line of companies. That’s why the situation continues.The boards of directors and shareholders, in aggregate, only respond to what hurts their bottom line. That’s what I mean when I say that Blacks are considered an afterthought and haven’t shown they’re a “force to be reckoned with.”
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@ Peanut
I agree. Most of Kim’s statement cannot be taken seriously, not when you look at the pictures.
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@Kushite Prince–
I’m the one who proposed the “don’t buy their magazines” strategy above.
Please give me credit for my ideas since you don’t hesitate to attack me. I’m not the type of person who pretends that it’s okay to attack me.
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@Franklin–
Both America and Africa are managed and run by men. SOCIALLY, though black women in Africa are known for ruling these communities. To a much greater degree than black women do in America, when you look at history. If you weren’t flat out dishonest, then you wouldn’t have ignored that factor, in order to try and shift the blame off of where it belongs.
Try again.
You’ve got to be joking. Black men rule socially and in every other way, in every African country I’ve lived in. If it’s not something that Black men want to happen there, it doesn’t happen. I don’t want to take this thread off topic, but you need to talk specifics. What ethnic groups, countries, and communities have you lived in in Africa, where African women rule in any kind of way? I think some African women would want to know that too.
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@Jorbia
Here you go again.*sigh* I could easily take the bait and start insulting you again. But I’m really not in the mood for it right now. If you made those earlier comments,then you and I actually agree on something. There are plenty of people I’ve met in my life that I didn’t care for,yet agreed with them on some issues. So this is not groundbreaking news.lol Let’s just leave it at that. And not derail Agabons’s post. Let’s try to stay on topic. It’s your call.
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@ Jorbia
So you’re actually going to sit there and tell me that there is no maternal sway in black African families and communities, that is similar to how there is a maternal sway in black American families and communities? If you deny that, then you have NO legitimate place when it comes to commenting on this topic. Having lived and worked in several states myself, in both South and Western Nigeria, Benin (the country, not the SE Nigerian state) and Ghana, I KNOW what I’m talking about, because I’ve seen this first hand.
And don’t worry, given the context that you used earlier when you said “rule”, I won’t let you try and change the context of it to mean “financially”. You originally meant dictating social trends, and that was the context that will remain for the remainder of this discussion.
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Cornila states:
“The “melanin theory” thing has its “nice” aspects: it makes people feel good.
It gives simple and straight explanations such as “it’s because of their skin/ their lack of melanin that they are like that”.
These theorists take a dangerous path, because the very focus of “race” and defining people according to physical appearance in the 17th and 18th centuries was the supposed “fact” that their skin/hair/humors (body fluids) actually contained their character. That their physical attributes determined what they had in their brains and therefore what they thought.”
*******************************************************************************************
I’m gonna keep this short
The “melanin theory thing”, isn’t a theory.
It’s fact.
Neanderthals are not fully developed hue-mans. They never E-volved. They In-volved. Lack of melanin, which is produced by the pineal gland, which whites have but is calcified, causes behavioural defects. I do not need to review “white His-Story” do I? The entire planet is reeling from the depravity of Cro Magnon. But Nature always has a plan…
This is just another way for the European to show us and thusly the entire world his deep seated hatred and envy of the Original People.
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@Kushite Prince–
If you want to show how you excel at insulting me, don’t hold yourself back. Or better still, use your brain to come up with some ideas.
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@All
I thought that Black women helped ruled African societies centuries ago. That was what I read in books.
@Jorbia
I disagree. The Black woman is the backbone of the Black community in America! Most Black men aren’t even in the homes of their own children! Black women have been the backbone of the Black race for centuries.
No, I am not trying to put down Black men. I love my Black men, being a Black woman but I don’t agree with you at all.
@Franklin
I agree with you.
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Franklin–
I’ll make this short so that Abagond won’t delete it or suggest it go to the open thread. “Rule” means “rule” which means “being in control” which means it can’t happen unless the ruler signs off on it.
That being said, African men rule over women in their cultures and countries in the African countries I’ve lived in and visited. If the men don’t sanction, reinforce, uphold, legitimize and benefit from anything that women might want to do, it stops. My parents taught me to respect the cultural traditions there and I love some of them, but from what I’ve experienced and observed, many of the women in those societies are not treated like full adults, the way I’d want to be treated. Actually, the social aspects came first to my mind, not even the financial.
As a man, I’m not surprised that you think that those women are treated just fine and that they rule something. That’s a sexist, patriarchal view. That’s very similar to the White-Black situation in which most Whites think that Blacks are treated just fine.
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@Adeen–
I disagree. The Black woman is the backbone of the Black community in America! Most Black men aren’t even in the homes of their own children! Black women have been the backbone of the Black race for centuries.
No, I am not trying to put down Black men. I love my Black men, being a Black woman but I don’t agree with you at all.
Okay, and I think this is a topic that needs its own thread because it takes the thread off topic. I don’t want to spend time responding and then have Abagond delete my comment as he did the other day in another thread when we went off topic.
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Translation: We here at Numero magazine are offended that you people are offended,we stand by our photographers.WE didn’t have anything to do with this picture being taken even though we could’ve said no to putting the pics in our magazine.WE are not racist we have black friends..ooops i mean black models on the cover of our magazines,the next issue will be on clearance with a black model on it.We’ve worked with naomi campbell and she will throw a cell phone at us if we do this again.
We are sorry you were offended ,buy our next non racist magazine with an actual black person on the cover.thank you”
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Right, this black matriarchy stuff is getting off topic.
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Abagond–
I have a comment in moderation, not about black matriarchy.
If you’re going to allow your commenters to insult me simply because I have an alternative view, I think you should allow me to respond. Other than that, it would be better for you not to allow me to present my views.
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@Jorbia,
I tend to see things the way you describe them in your reply to me.
As for the “tanning” thing, the more I observe, the more I think it is linked to obsession with control. Racists want everything to be theirs. They have to have control. Hence the necessity for them to “have” tan too, it has to belong to them, and it is not necessarily out of “envy”. Though it is “nice” to think it could be that on the part of darker-skinned people.
“they want to be us” sounds nice, but the problem is that it may be much more problematic than that…
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I see my comments are being blocked as well.
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@Tyrone
“Black folk should stay mindful of the fact that whitewomen have been the primary beneficiaries of “White Supremacy” on this planet. Their white forefathers enslaved and raped another race of women.”
What about the exact opposite, Tyrone ?
“White” women are “simply” the reproductive object of white man. They serve the man. The serve the “nation”. What do they benefit from ? The function ? They exist in the white supremacist world only as a medium, not as a power. “White women” were enrolled as a means, they enjoy privilege as long as they obey.
“The envy that has always been inside whitewomen is coming out for all to see. This episode is just one of many that highlight the obvious.”
This “envy” is this other side of the “melanin” thing.
Like, you know what’s inside other people, right ? “has always been”, because you have always known ?
Why would someone who is privileged envy those who are not ? You really believe that racists are aware of anything ? They are under control more than the rest. Just have a look at conversations on racism on the net and see if they “see” anything coming.
I think you overestimate the loss of power of white supremacy.
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I always wounder why whites did kind of stuff, whites really do love us the “TRUE” people of the world. without us these evil anti-blackness beings are gone!! lol well then again their gonna be gone when their punishmeant comes so it really don’t matter at this point and time. the edomites are a gone evil being(thank, god!!).
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Kwamla, can you please elaborate ?
I didn’t say racism is “simply” an ideology. Saying that it’s an ideology doesn’t exclude other visions of it. Plus, an ideology can be multi-faceted, especially that one. The idea of race rests on many concepts that cross through biology, physiology, psychology, history, art. it is far from having being explored and its functioning understood.
You said:
“While I use to have some degree of sympathy with this primary view of racism being simply an ideology I’ve since, through research, found this explanation to be only partially satisfactory. It fails to account for a number of observations. One of which this latest post by abagond speaks directly to: The obsessional craving for the representation of “whiteness” in an equalised, spiritualised and soulful pictorial format.
So it was no real surprise to have an idealised “white” model made up to look like a typical idealised and honoured African Queen. A clever, but highly disingenuous, pictorial illustration that conveys two things:
(1) A covert envy and appreciation of the African female form with all its regal and “Blackness” as perceived by the white publishers
(2) An attempt at accentuating and displaying the European female form at this same level of perceived adoration and idolised perfected form.
Racism as an ideology needs to have some fundamental basis in our experiential reality for it to believed to be true. The biological and significant role melanin plays (most of which science does not widely publicise) is key here.”
What do you call “this primary view of racism” ?
What does it fail to account for ? The representation of “whiteness” as a format has been explored in the History of WHite People by Nell Irvin Painter. She shows how 18th/19th century art tried to do that. Is that what you mean ?
To your 1) point I maintain that this is the wrong reading. In my opinion it is an attempt to not to allow for a clear vision of who African women are. It imposes their vision so that the real vision is blurred and not believed, even mocked.
What do you mean by “Racism as an ideology needs to have some fundamental basis in our experiential reality” ?
What is the basis of racism now that is not satisfying ? What is it in the racist ideology what you consider as not “believable” ?
I don’t understand what you mean because I don’t know what your reference as an insufficient “fundamental basis” is.
What is the role of melanin according to your knowledge of it ?
Thanks.
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this is a group of self-hating beings that, i’m just sooooo! sick to death of. when is thier “END” coming(Most High?).
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@Jorbia
I didn’t insult you at all. I try not to insult anyone on here because I try to respect them.
@Cornelia
How do you feel about a White women being painted in brown paint for the magazine cover? That is my question. This is the topic of the thread. .
Honestly I find painting a White woman in black paint to portray a Black woman disrespectful and demeaning to Black women around the world as if we aren’t good enough to even be on the cover of a magazine! What does this say to us about how the world feels about us? Maybe we should make our own magazines with magazines covers of Black women like me on it.
If that doesn’t work, then maybe we can find other ways to solve this problem.
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@Sugarkiss, you said:
“As a real life example – why does this country try so hard to hide real, scientific facts on the origin of modern astronomy, astrology and spirituality as it all hails from Africa? It even minimized blacks own contributions beyond slavery to the building of this “great” country! It credits art, music, astrology, advanced physics and math to Europeans as the “firsts to discover.” They literally stop at acknowledging Africa as the place of the oldest human remains.That is about it.
Why not entertain the “melanin theory” and debunk it publicly than to bury or ignore the research? Could it be that it displaces whites as the center of the universe?
Could it be that they really wouldn’t be able to debunk much about the research without awakening curiosity and pride in a people you have (for centuries) worked to keep enslaved mind and spirit?”
I don’t think the “melanin theory” is hidden. You can find it all over YouTube and the net in general. There are many books on it on Amazon, for instance.
Can we first agree on what it is ? Because I have understood from reading and listening to Dr Cress-Welding’s work,that it is not “just” putting facts in the center of History and shifting for what is called “his story” in the US. It is another biologically-based theory, and that is very different from forcing a system of propaganda and lies to stop and leave space for historical truth.
History is not about pride, right ? It’s about facts. It’s about the reality of what happened, as much as researchers can make it clear in the eyes of contemporary people.
I think the “melanin theory” appears at the moment when dark-skinned people (especially those living in the US, where the pressure of lies and manipulation has been harsh right in the midst of “whiteness) have had it. They have had enough and anything that will uplift “pride” is welcome. But what “pride” is it ? Historical pride ? or “race” pride” ? These are not the same thing at all.
In Hidden Colors, there is one thinker (I don’t know his name because it doesn’t appear near to him on the screen) who has a very pragmatic approach by basically saying, “we don’t care what they do, what they say, we are going to do what we have to do to uplift ourselves as a “people”.” He clearly and several times recalls the fact that “race” is the white man’s thing. The other thinkers, and that includes Dr CW, are not so clear and fluctuate between various approaches that include “races are biologically real”.
I think, and that is just my opinion, that 1) it is extremely dangerous to accept your enemy’s theory to build your own, 2) it is absolutely not necessary to tell things as they were, unless you have in mind to make people feel pride about what they have always been told they were (and it was supposed to be negative, and you magically make it positive) and to make the people who impose the negative vision “pay” for it by telling them that they are now the “inferior race”.
It is an understandable re-action after 400 years of oppression, but it is going to lead them nowhere. Except towards hatred. Which is already happening. A lot of people who follow this theory are beginning to hold views that are copy-paste of the the white-supremacist thought all over the internet.
That is why I think it’s a dangerous path. Very hard to go back once you take it. Because then you have to re-construct something. This is exactly the problem racists have, they have no identity apart from the racial one. If they have to renounce it, they are lost.
The “melanin theory” talks (is directed) to “white” people. In Hidden Colors it is obvious: all the speakers except the one I mentioned above who focuses on the “black” community and especially its children) constantly compare themselves to “whites”. It seems as if they “think” to oppose whites. This is exactly what “whiteness” hopes for.
It implies from the start that “races” are a biological fact. It references itself inside the frame set by racists of the 17th and 18th centuries. It is these thinkers right to do so. But they have to be ready for a lot of trouble trying to explain their position.
I think they are misleading people on the basis of good intentions, as you state it: “displaces whites as the center of the universe”, which is LONG overdue. Peace.
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@ Adeen
I don’t understand why you are asking me that
“How do you feel about a White women being painted in brown paint for the magazine cover? That is my question. This is the topic of the thread. .”
I think it is quite clear what I think Adeen: it is the work of racists who want to demeen African women in all kinds of ways. Haven’t I explained what I thought about it in my first posts?
About your next comment. She wasn’t painted in “black” paint but in actual brown color that was supposed to make her look like an African. It apparently attempted to look more ‘stylish” than blackface (done actual black color). Which is why I said that to me it’s an attempt at possession, not even mockery.
“Maybe we should make our own magazines with magazines covers of Black women like me on it.”
There are many magazines like that, Adeen… I am surprised you would say that. In French, I know Amina and Brune, for instance.
But I think it would be even better if African and diaspora women appeared as authors of articles on all kinds of topics in addition to “fashion”.
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That’s what I’m saying when I say that the “melanin theory” can turn around and hit the theorists:
“NOTHINGS EVER OFF LIMITS TOO THE CAUCUS ASIAN NEANDERTAL SPECIE.
ATTEMPTING TO TRANSFORM A PALE NO SOUL BOYISH GENETICALLY RECESSIVE CAUCASIAN FE-MALE (NEANDERTAL) INTO THE DIVINE STATION OF MY DIVINE BLACK DIGNIFIED ANCIENT MATRIARCHAL QUEEN MOTHER IS DEFINITELY WORTHY OF A CURSE.”
All of it is in here.
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There’s nothing I could add that hasn’t been already brilliantly said. It still astounds me that white people have to get more white people to portray POC at every turn. They can not tell me there’s not enough POC, talented or otherwise. So, you can only assume that they’re egotistically color obsessed with whiteness being the only choice.
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truthbetold
Neanderthals are not fully developed hue-mans. They never E-volved. They In-volved. Lack of melanin, which is produced by the pineal gland, which whites have but is calcified, causes behavioural defects. I do not need to review “white His-Story” do I? The entire planet is reeling from the depravity of Cro Magnon. But Nature always has a plan…
This is just another way for the European to show us and thusly the entire world his deep seated hatred and envy of the Original People.
DDC
Yes they hate us and envy us and have rituals where they destroy us, become us, imitate and mock us. And u r correct , the white race usually have third-eyes that r calcified beyond repair, they want the same for us this is why they r pumping the water supply and various products with flouride. I believe the whites would love to “trade places” with us by convincing us to become them and vice versa. Seems to be working with so many blacks succumbing to the wiles of the white race.
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@Crissjensen you said:
“I always wounder why whites did kind of stuff,”
I wonder the same thing, so does that make me “black” ? And “TRUE” ?
You’ll still have to wait for racists to disappear by magic. *sigh*
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Cornelia: (and it was supposed to be negative, and you magically make it positive) and to make the people who impose the negative vision “pay” for it by telling them that they are now the “inferior race”.
~So, I have to go and I can’t really elaborate as much as I would like, but this statement is what I mean when I talk about science in “hiding.”
You make very good points, honestly, but the crux of my issue is mental conditioning. To cop to this statement is to say that the initial assumptions of superiority and inferiority hold some truth. And I agree that numbers and science can be proven to say whatever depending on who is doing the “math” and although you can now find the info on the net, it is not taught anywhere where the Western minds have influenced. Just basic interactions with Africans–the spiritual aspect, gives meat to the melanin theories and they ring true to me as I continue to research this.
But, I gotta go, damn.
SK 🙂
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@Franklin–
Abagond said he didn’t want more comments about the Black matriarchy here, yet your comment was posted. My comment to an insult aimed at me is not getting through, so I won’t spend the time responding to you. It won’t get posted.
@ Adeen–
I didn’t think you insulted me.
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And this is also what I mean by the problematic of the “melanin theory”:
deepdkchocolate said: “Neanderthals are not fully developed hue-mans. They never E-volved. They In-volved. Lack of melanin, which is produced by the pineal gland, which whites have but is calcified, causes behavioural defects. I do not need to review “white His-Story” do I? The entire planet is reeling from the depravity of Cro Magnon. But Nature always has a plan…”
Neanderthals are indeed dead. So I am not a Neanderthal
My melanin is calcified: OMG, what am I gonna do ! Nope, sorry, I just have a little less because I need less for my body to be able to produce Vitamin D, among other things.
I have behaviour defects. Oops, I need to go see a psychologist.
I have reviewed white His-Story and am working on History after I realized the history I was told was not accurate (especially after I was told Egypt was not *really* in Africa).
Neanderthals are not Cro-Magnons. Cro-Magnons are the descendents of Africans Homo Sapiens Sapiens, so that makes us all cousins, right ?
And I hope Nature’s plans won’t be halted by the idiocy of some honorary whites in Japan and the white supremacist nuclear industry.
I am surprised I am not also a Caucasian…
You know, I think we all need to read books… Starting with Linneaus, Blumenbach and Buffon. Maybe that will help. To read the father’s of all the things we are talking about here.
And I am definitely going to read that one on melanin that tells me I am an inferior being because I lack it. I definitely wanna know how inferior I am. Like, am I more inferior than an African albino woman ? How inferior am compared to an African-American women who is lighter skinned than me but has very curly hair ? These are questions that must be asked, mustn’t they ? If we want to be logical in our scientific approach of things…
Because I imagine the melanin theory is scientific…
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This is trash.African queen my ass. First when i think of queen i think of a woman not a little girl.Second when i think of Africa i think of people from the continent africa not some white american.The fashion industry has turned into kiddie pom.They could’ve at least used someone from africa,instead they chose to use dark makeup on an american.smh. Give them a taste of their own medicine i say let a chinese model wear the us flag and take pics and call it American Beauty. I bet the whites would flip out just the way they did when they found out the US olympic uniforms were made in china.That apology was sorry as f@k they could’ve kept that to themselves.This is just as disrespectful as Zoe saladana portraying Nina simone.Pretty soon everything will be represented by whites. I guess this is how they celebrate black history month with good ole fashioned black face.
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@ Jorbia
Actually, if you were able to understand the simplest of responses, you’d have understood that my comment wasn’t ABOUT the off-limit subject of matriarchy. Which is why I didn’t mention anything in regards to that. Less dishonesty and less desperate appeals to authority, by calling for Abagond, btw. It just looks bad.
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@mstoogood4yall
I agree. Painting a woman in brown face to ”represent” African women is demeaning and wrong. This incident is similar to the days when many Whites in America made minstrel shows and paint themselves in black face to mock and make fun of us Black people.
And this White girl looks like she is my age! She doesn’t even look like a woman!
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@ Adeen
It sure is. I just hate the fact that young black girls have to see this bs.This sends the message that one blacks aren’t good enough to represent ourselves,and two that white features look better in darker skin tones than african features look in dark skin tones.We see skinny young white models on magazines and most whites don’t look like that.It annoys me how some whites will try to compare their struggle to blacks.Some redheads say i get teased and called ginger[which is the n word rearranged] or i get teased for being pale.They can change their hair color,use anti aging creams,and tan to look like the models on magazines.Blacks can’t just change our skin color to match the standard of beauty and we shouldn’t feel like we have to,That is why i think its best to not allow kids to see those things,but alot of kids stay indoors looking at this stuff instead of being a kid and going outside.Even in black magazines they show models who don’t look like majority of blacks.They are light skinned with green eyes and loose curly hair.I can count on one hand how many blacks i’ve seen who look like that.
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Franklin 2 people (me and Bulanik) replied to your post, in addition to Jorbia. I did it before I saw their posts. We basically said the same thing…
Can you please realize that your generalization is problematic instead finding a poster problematic ?
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“The question is why more Blacks don’t feel that everything in the world is up for grabs, too. Instead of expecting Whites and others to grab at less, why don’t Blacks these days grab at more”
Amen Jorbia.
I don’t understand it either.We should recognize who really is at wrong instead of accusing each other.It amazes me how some blacks will give whites a pass for acting black yet not extend that same courtesy to blacks who are educated and so called acting white.
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mstoogood4yall, you said this:
“Even in black magazines they show models who don’t look like majority of blacks.”
So that definitely means that people need to take the matter into their hands and massively write to those magazines, threatening not to buy them !
I know I do. I write anywhere I see lies about history. That includes, for instance, calling Queen Tyie a “leucoderm”.
I am not classified as “black”, but these things make me react and act… Anyone fighting racism should.
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@ Cornlia
I never buy magazines,so they dam sure aren’t getting my money.I just hope more people do the same,stop buying things not made for you or falsely representing you.I’m glad you feel disgusted about it as well everyone should,unfortunately too many people have their blinders on.
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To me, this is similar stuff, but simply reversed in principal. Again, “possessing” the other’s body. It’s reversed, but it doesn’t matter, racism can say anything and its opposite, they don’t care as long as it serves their interest.
I hope the quotes work. I am not sure I used them right.
[img]http://olya.projects.egblg.com/image/tutankhamun.jpg[/img]
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Remember when Beyoncé was painted in Black face several years back. I find this incident similar to this incident because using Beyoncé was telling the world that they(Whites) feel that light skin Black women are prettier than dark skin Black women like myself. I don’t hate Beyoncé. I happen to love her music but I have to call out evil.
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@ Adeen i just googled the beyonce thing.Rofl they didn’t cover up her body it looks like a skin disease to me.Her face was dark and her chest and arms were light it looked horrible.Dark skinned women are beautiful and have that glow to their skin which is the difference between them and those dumb blackface models.They can’t even begin to capture the beautiful eyes,curvy figure,plump lips,and wide noses.This is the myspace of an african queen imo.
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@ Cornlia
I’d be glad to respond to your post, but if you knew anything about me in the past, then you’d know that I’m not one for breaking the rules, once a topic is deemed “off-limits”. Also, when you mentioned “whiteness”, while I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, I seriously hope you aren’t implying that I’m white. Maybe you missed it when I used to post here regularly, but I’m black.
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@mstoogood4yall
I actually feel disgusted about the people who do that. The model, the photographer everyone involved in it. Racist acts themseves don’t surprise me anymore. I know racists are sick in their minds. I am disgusted that not more people react, that’s for sure… I wish there were many more. But most are under control.
The pic of (supposedly) Tut Ankh Ha Mun that I tried to post to make it visible (failed !) is just as telling.
The first time I saw it, I laughed out loud, because it is just so ridiculous when you compare it with actual statues or fresques of him.
It is OBVIOUS he was an African with dark skin. But no, they just continue, and continue. That is why I am very suspicious of the “envy” theory. I think simply they don’t want other people to be what they *think* they are: the greatest. And that’s why they try to keep everything under control.
There are actually more and more nice pictures of dark-skinned women in the media. And that’s maybe what bothers them. They tried to pull the cover to them, so that they would be talked about. And provocation always works.
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Franklin, talk about the role of African women as you know it, please.
I never “imply” people’s “race” or skin color. So, no, I didn’t imply anything about you, because it was not about you but about something you said.
I mentioned “whiteness” as the state of mind of those who define themselves as “white” in the theory of races.
peace
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And this is also what I mean by the problematic of the “melanin theory”:
deepdkchocolate said: “Neanderthals are not fully developed hue-mans. They never E-volved. They In-volved. Lack of melanin, which is produced by the pineal gland, which whites have but is calcified, causes behavioural defects. I do not need to review “white His-Story” do I? The entire planet is reeling from the depravity of Cro Magnon. But Naturesponding to always has a plan…”
Neanderthals are indeed dead. So I am not a Neanderthal
My melanin is calcified: OMG, what am I gonna do ! Nope, sorry, I just have a little less because I need less for my body to be able to produce Vitamin D, among other things.
DDC: I did not post that. I preface posts in which I am responding to with DDC:
Thanks. And lack of melanin has many detrimental effects like poor reproduction, this is why the white race is and will be a minority in the world.
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White people as a group are not going to change. We can report it but they will never denounce it because they enjoy the benefits and it does not hurt them
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deepdkchocolate, sorry I didn’ t realize it was not you.
Otherwhise, you said:
“And lack of melanin has many detrimental effects like poor reproduction, this is why the white race is and will be a minority in the world.”
And I am ready to believe this if you have sources that show this.
As far as the US, it wouldn’t have to be due to lack of melanin, the pollution created by capitalism + white supremacist is enough to saw the branch on which racists sit.
My point with the melanin theory is that we really don’t need it for racists to destroy themselves. Apart from that, races do not exist, so all the BS about extinction of the “white race” is just going to happen, because the so-called “white race” is already a demographic minority on this planet. So of course anyone saying “it’s going to disappear” is not inventing the wheel, as we say in my country, because IT’S OBVIOUS that light-skinnedness is doomed !
Peace
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Bulanik, co-sign on the Cro-Magnon. I think I’m going to plan some reading on this btw. There have been new findings on all this recently, should be interesting.
Point is, we are all descendents of the Humans who first lived on the continent Europans recently named Africa.
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Abagond, could you please kindly direct me to the post where you explain how to post pics, video and quote correctly, thanks. I will store it somewhere so I don’t have to ask again.
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@ Kushite & Jorbia
I deleted a comment from each of you. The argument between you was getting too personal.
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So just using actual black models was not an option? How offensive.
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This is vile and shows nothing has changed nor will it as long as they are in control
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@Kal – I couldn’t agree more with that assessment,
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Looking at the model; she may have had black in her but its been a few generations at best…..
And even if she did I’m not really sure if it would matter.
I mean if they were going with some kind of concept here that races have more similiarities than we think of and were “painting” various individuals of different races to look like others or some such kind of thing.
But its like Bulanik pointed out; this is just done to be “edgy”……and as mentioned by others, why even bother apologizing for it then?
Its BS to say they didn’t mean to offend anyone and it shows a pretty pathetic lack of fortitude as well.
I mean hell; they even could have gone with a model who had tanned themselves to the point they were a “browning” if they just liked the skin color but didn’t want to use an actual PoC for some reason and avoided most of this conundrum right there.
They actually try to claim that they represent PoC but they are even less representative than other modeling companies and magazines and then pull this?
If they actually believe what they say; they are either delusional as all hell or incredibly unaware of their own actions.
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Sure well when you need a Asian model I hope you use some one of European distant also Mr Kim!!!
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@ Franklin, Jorbia, Cornlia
Deleted some of your posts – either because they were on something declared off topic or because they sunk to little more than personal insults.
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The Francis Cress Welsing nonsense is nonsense. Melanin is an organic protein compound that provides pigmentation in most living organisms. It helps prevent UV damage that can lead to skin cancer. Period, the end, that’s all folks. Science is your friend people. Whites have used a similar junk science theory to prove their racial superiority:
As the population that would become European whites moved north they had to work harder to obtain food and shelter, therefore the size of their cerebral cortex grew thicker compared to their Africans who remained behind. Neither of these idiotic ruminations have a shred of science to back them up. DNA testing has recent discovered a small segment of Neanderthal DNA in some whites. At one time Homo Sapiens & Neanderthals were knocking boots. Science cannot tell us what this fragment does or doesn’t do and with the history of rape and concubinage in the Black Atlantic, millions of black have this DNA too.
High fashion has caught creating some serious racial f**kery lately:
-A dutch magazine does a piece on Rhiana’s fashion style and calls her a ‘n****r b***h’.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2076559/Rihanna-gets-apology-Dutch-magazine-racist-slur.html
-Fashion giant Mango has been forced to apologize for advertising a ‘Slave Style’ jewellery line on its French e-commerce website.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2288098/Mango-jewellery-Fashion-giant-forced-apologise-Slave-Style-range-sparks-consumer-backlash.html
-Dolce and Gabbana based their entire Spring 2013 on images of European paintings of slaves. They also did not hire any black models.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/26/dolce-and-gabbana-racist-earrings-_n_1914455.html
Black slaves in Europe were dressed up an displayed as status symbols and this trend made its way to painting.
– Vogue magazine enthusiastically promotes slave earrings
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2028817/Vogue-featuring-racist-slave-earrings.html
– Fuera de Serie, a Spanish magazine,photoshoped First Lady Michelle Obama into a French painting, and ends up portraying her as a slave woman, with her right breast exposed. The image makes to cover in Spain and America.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/28/michelle-obama-pictured-a_n_1836570.html
In the words of philosopher Paul Money, everybody wants to be a n**ger, but nobody wants the be a n**ger.
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@ Kiwi
There are ordinary prejudices against outgroups, like there used to be among white ethnics in America, but I think 90% of anti-black racism in America, no matter who it comes from, is rooted in white supremacist thinking. I have heard Asian and West Indian immigrants parrot white people word for word, sometimes after just three months in the country. I suspect other cases of lateral racism are pretty much the same.
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To Kiwi:
I really doubt Sebastian Kim would be so falsely sorry if white models showed up in yellow face. To be honest, if they did, I bet Kim would be all up in arms, calling the yellow face racist blah blah and expecting an apology.
Ummm maybe not:
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To Jefe:
jefe
Has there ever been such a thing as a photo shoot of non-European origin people in whiteface?
Grace Jones:
Apparently Tyra Banks had a show where used makeup to alter the ethnic appearance of the models.
The only whiteface I can ever remember seeing is Godfrey Cambridge in Watermelon Man.
Dave Chapelle had a regular skit as a White Anchorman
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4SUxFmX6sI0/TxBylk2mxKI/AAAAAAAAA3w/ihNVD-p9mos/s1600/untitled.bmp
Eddie Murphy – multiple skits in multiple movies.. portraying Whites and Asians:
http://magicunlimited.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451dfaa69e20120a5cc7139970b-320pi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Chicks
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@ Bulanik
“I don’t want to write a long post, banging on about the history of any of this, but I believe a little more care is needed with some of these terms.”
A little care? One hell of an understatement. She clearly doesn’t understand what she is talking about. She doesn’t even know what “evolving” means.
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Uncle Milton
To Kiwi:
I really doubt Sebastian Kim would be so falsely sorry if white models showed up in yellow face. To be honest, if they did, I bet Kim would be all up in arms, calling the yellow face racist blah blah and expecting an apology.
Ummm maybe not:
These pics are certainly asain-inspired but they are not depictions of white woman painted yellow and engaging in minstrelsy and presenting asian people and culture in a diminutive manner. This model was not painted yellow ifrican Queen photos.
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Bulanik:This also raises the question about how a black artist in the spotlight treats other cultures and peoples in their work. Azealia Banks, for example, among others, has “taken” from Indian cultures (India).
Ms Banks made a style out of wearing bindi, tikka, nose-ring, trying to imitate the Goddess Kali with the tongue sticking out. And doing a yoga pose.
I don’t feel okay with this.
I also didn’t feel okay with Gwen Stefani or Madonna or other white people ripping off Indian culture. I don’t feel okay with Azealia doing this, although I like her far more. And don’t even get me started on the Indian women’s hair Ms Banks likes to wear — whilst “borrowing from” Hindu culture.
DDC: But I am almost positive u have 0 problems with white artists ripping off black culture, listen to Eminem? Eric Clapton, The Rolling Stones? Justin Beiber? Fergie? Shall I continue? And furthermore Hinduism comes from Dravidians who were, black. I find it very disturbing how the obvious connection between the east indian and africanate people has been severed by that evil called white supremacy with their “ethnology” and “anthropological” lies.
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Bulanik:Ms Banks made a style out of wearing bindi, tikka, nose-ring, trying to imitate the Goddess Kali with the tongue sticking out. And doing a yoga pose.
I don’t feel okay with this.
DDC: Last time i checked people can dress anyway they like.. And basically what u fail to realize is that Kali Worship is alive and well amongst The Elite.
It’s all around u but while u were baa-ing I guess u missed it.
Thuggee (Hindi: ठग्गी or ṭhagī; Urdu: ٹھگ; Sanskrit: sthaga; Kannada: “thakka”), also known as tuggee or simply thugs, were organized gangs of professional assassins who traveled in groups across India for several hundred years. They were devoted to Kali, a Hindu goddess associated with violence and sexuality.[1] They were first mentioned in the Ẓiyāʾ-ud-Dīn Baranī (English: History of Fīrūz Shāh) dated around 1356.[2] In the 1830s they were targeted by William Bentinck, along with his chief captain William Henry Sleeman, for eradication. They were seemingly destroyed by this effort. According to some estimates the Thugs murdered 1 million people between 1740 and 1840
Why do u think “thugs” r being promoted via hiphop culture to the masses? If u look @ a post-modern thug and one of Kali’s thugee u will see very little difference. Kali worship is alive and well. Russell Simons is supposed to have a statue of Kali that he worships in his basement.
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Neanderthals are indeed dead. So I am not a Neanderthal
My melanin is calcified: OMG, what am I gonna do ! Nope, sorry, I just have a little less because I need less for my body to be able to produce Vitamin D, among other things.
Bloodlines of Neanderthals continue on, No, they r not “extinct”. ur pineal gland is what would be calcified.Here is a video on how to decalcify your pineal gland, not really something to scoff @.
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Cornlia:“White” women are “simply” the reproductive object of white man. They serve the man. The serve the “nation”. What do they benefit from ? The function ? They exist in the white supremacist world only as a medium, not as a power. “White women” were enrolled as a means, they enjoy privilege as long as they obey.
DDC:White women benefit from their exalted status as the purported most desirable women in the world.They benefit from being the women of white supremacy if they moan about black women and the freedoms they enjoy laws will be implemented to curtail these freedoms. White women have toiled hard to advance white supremacy and milk it for all it’s worth now they can freely miscegenate just like their men, Oh joy joy! They can have sex with men of color , bring forth spawn and raise them to be “white” despite the obvious..lol..
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Cornlia
deepdkchocolate, sorry I didn’ t realize it was not you.
Otherwhise, you said:
“And lack of melanin has many detrimental effects like poor reproduction, this is why the white race is and will be a minority in the world.”
And I am ready to believe this if you have sources that show this.
DDC:
Caucasians have a higher concentration of enzyme inhibitors that suppress melanin production, according to Halprin & Ohkawara, 1966. White people also have calcified pineal glands. You may ask how does this imply that white skin is a genetic defect…..The pineal gland secretes melatonin, which activates the pituitary to release M.S.H. (Melanocyte Stimulating Hormone). It is in the melanocytes that melanin (Greek “melas”=black) is produced. Melanin is somewhat analogous to chlorophyll in plants. What a lot of people don’t realize is that melatonin is also related to fertility. Those with pigmented skin have the highest counts of melanocytes in the genitalia and nipples. The pigmentation in these areas can be influenced by sex hormones like estrogens and androgens. During pregnancy, the nipples, face, and abdominal wall become darkened. These areas of increased pigmentation during pregnancy are due to the increase in the production of estrogens.
Whites attribute their failure of reproduction to behavioral or societal reasons. However, the reason is more a biological one. Melanin is present at the inception of life: A Melanin sheath covers both the sperm and the egg! In the human embryo, the melanocytes (skin pigment cells), brain and nerve cells all originate from the same place; the neural crest. Melanocytes resemble nerve cells and are essential for conveying energy. When Melanin is missing or insufficient in the ectoderm of the early embryo (blastula), this causes the mother to lose her baby; in the case of whites, a defective baby is produced, and over time, through inbreeding, wears down the already pathetically low levels of melanin. Reproduction stops altogether and virtual infertility is the end result
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@ Bulanik–
This also raises the question about how a black artist in the spotlight treats other cultures and peoples in their work. Azealia Banks, for example, among others, has “taken” from Indian cultures (India).
This made me think about how common it is for Africans in general, whether here or in Africa, to strongly encourage others, including Whites, to wear their clothes, play their music, speak their language, eat their food the way they do, and so on. I’ve gone to many African social functions in Africa and even here, where Whites wear African clothes, perform by playing African drums and other instruments. This is actually very widespread in some sections of the Northeast and Canada. The Africans think that’s all wonderful. It says to them that you’re joining them, that you’re not trying remain an outsider.
I’ve gone to parties and weddings in the States where there’ll be many White women and sometimes White men dressed in African clothes, doing African dances, and if you talk with them, they will usually know more about African culture than the Black American guests. Sometimes, the White women are the first ones on the floor when the music starts. Sometimes, popular African bands (outside the States) have an equal number of Black and White women dancers on the stage.
I never thought much about this since it’s been a common experience for me, but your comment made me think about this in a new light. I know for sure that most of the Africans I’ve encountered wouldn’t look at what Kim did the same way Black Americans do. Some might be a little annoyed if they thought he was mocking them, but I believe that most of them would feel flattered.
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@Abagond
“…There are ordinary prejudices against outgroups, like there used to be among white ethnics in America, but I think 90% of anti-black racism in America, no matter who it comes from, is rooted in white supremacist thinking…”
I would generally agree with this view. I would probably add globally in place of America. But I am curious to understand how you might account for the remaining 10% of anti-Black racism?
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@Kushite
@Sugarkiss
The black female asthetic is beautiful, all of us know this to be true. What’s the next step? Beauty without a plan of action is idle time, and as we know, time waits for nobody. In this day and time, no blackwoman should ever view herself as inferior to whitewomen. Sistas, be the best blackwoman God created you to be, Do it for yourself! Brothas are a work in progress, we haven’t caught up yet. If you’re regal in every aspect, I See You Queen! No need to downplay your greatness. Kushite, thank you brotha. Sugarkiss, stay delicious blackwoman!!!
GoTeam
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To all those who posted comments or questions about Melanin. Including this less than informed and unhelpful comment:
“…The Francis Cress Welsing nonsense is nonsense. Melanin is an organic protein compound that provides pigmentation in most living organisms. It helps prevent UV damage that can lead to skin cancer. Period, the end, that’s all folks. Science is your friend people. Whites have used a similar junk science theory to prove their racial superiority:…”
@ deepdkchocolate
I believe you posted some useful, factual and informative information about Melanin and the Pineal gland (great video – Which in truth should be more accurately be described as an organ. But I agree with Cornial sources would be useful.
As I have already stated before on this blog Melanin forms an integral part of all biological living systems. Just as Plants have chlorophyll – another form of Melanin – as an integral part of their living system. This is what provides them with their beautifully, varied and diverse colours. “Green” is the fundamental primary skin colour. In the same way “Black” is the fundamental primary skin colour for people on this planet. Interestingly, none of the recent scientific genetic evidence disputes this. And we all should be aware, by now, of just how racist and innately subjective some scientific evidence can be…!
However, this is what one African-American scientific researcher Dr Jewel Pookrum in her recent book has to say about Melanin:
Its not just African-Americans like Dr Francis Cress Welsing or Dr Jewel Pookrum who’ve studied more closely the link between Melanin and the biased, negative or racially prejudicial beliefs (white supremacist programming nonsense) we hold against our naturally coloured melanated bodies. (see also: Carol Barnes & Dr. Richard D. King M.D)
Another, widely misunderstood FACT is that we ALL have some form of Melanin in our bodies the difference is in the quantity and the quality. But its the,quality, according to Dr Pookrum which can have the most influential affect on ourselves and our genetics or DNA.
Dr Jewel Pookrum describes Melanin as “…Biological living light!…”
Finally, some other useful information to know about things already commented on widely here:
It has already been scientifically proven (do an internet goggle search) and announced that Modern man is a combination of hominid species, Caucasians and Asians have from 1% – 4% Neanderthal DNA, Africans don’t have any!…Further…
“…The initial Anunnaki version of human being was the Neanderthal man. The Sirians developed this prototype further to Cro-Magnon man, from which modern man subsequently evolved…”
Of course this part is what “official science” has yet to admit or disclose. But you can find this from other sources of information on my FB & Twitter blog if interested.
Racism: white supremacy, has a biological along with a political basis. Its more than just a dreamed up ideology that could just have easily been adopted and applied by any other cultural group – Asians, Africans etc..because the world view or cosmic perceptions of these groups was totally different from the Europeans. This is why these perceptions, along with the ancient indigenous groups of these people had to be conquered, assimilated or exterminated.
When you look at a literal backward translation of the word: Original what do you find hidden?
La-nigiro Co:incidence?
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@ deepdkchocolate
I believe you posted some useful, factual and informative information about Melanin and the Pineal gland (great video – Which in truth should be more accurately be described as an organ. But I agree with Cornial sources would be useful.
DDC:The late renowned Anthropologist, Dr. Margaret Meade, in an experiment with indigenous Australians, Black Melanesian Islander children and white Anglo-Saxon children in the US, revealed that the “memory bank” of black children was greater and their “instant recall ability” from memory, outstanding. She, like most renowned researchers, concluded that black children have a deeper memory bank and hence higher IQ than their counterpart European and American Biochemists have attributed this great phenomenon to ‘neuro-melanin’ – a chemical responsible for black.
In his book, “The Chemical Key to Black Greatness” American Biochemist, Carol Barnes, described melanin as, “a civilizing chemical that acts as a sedative to help keep the black human calm, relaxed, caring, creative, energetic and civilized”. Research also revealed that melanin enables black skin to actively interact with the sun, to produce Vitamin D from a biochemical substance, 7- dehydrocholesterol. The study also detected that, melanin has spiritual dynamics as well as physical, since it acts as a sensory ‘receptor’ and ‘transmitter’; communicating with cosmic energy fields in the vast universe converting light energy to sound energy and back. Dr. Richard King, MD, stated that, “melanin, by its ability to capture light and hold it in a memory mode, reveals that blackness converts light into knowledge”.
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@DDC–
Wow, seriously? Maybe this medium allows people to present who they really are w/o the encumbrances of the physical.However some people can’t seem to let the physical world go as they r always tying to influence us in this “medium: by encumbering us with who they allegedly r. Same people who tell u that race doesn’t matter, btw.
It’s really about politics, not race, because there are no races. Maybe, I’m wrong but I thought that had been established on here.
I know that Black American women have a lot to be angry about, but don’t you think we sometimes lose some opportunities when we express that anger like a sword. I think we have to choose more carefully who we show the sword because some of them could become our strong allies.
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@ deepdkchocolate
Some excellent updated sources concerning Melanin!
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It’s really about politics, not race, because there are no races. Maybe, I’m wrong but I thought that had been established on here.
Ur wrong. And u don’t get to establish anything here or anyplace else for that matter..If there was no such thing as race, there would be no racism. i mean, wow.
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Thanks Kwamla I saved the info u posted and u know i had several books by Dr. jewel Pookrum that I will have to replace..
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I know that Black American women have a lot to be angry about, but don’t you think we sometimes lose some opportunities when we express that anger like a sword. I think we have to choose more carefully who we show the sword because some of them could become our strong allies.
DDC:
This is a discussion, noone is “showing their anger like a sword” when did my happiness or anger become tied in with urs? How did “we” happen? LMAO.
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Well, for that matter, I could be a covert White Supremacist too… or Abagond, or anybody. Nobody can prove their racial identity on the internet. I think we just have to trust that people are who they are.
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Bulanik,
“What hurts about this, and it happens all the time, is the desire to erase the PoC but keep their “culture”.”
Definitely! An analogy I like which I read on another blog was it’s like “throwing someone a birthday party and not inviting them.”
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Deleted some comments by Bulanik, DDC, Jorbia and King concerning Bulanik’s bloodline. It is not only unknowable and unprovable over the Internet but it amounts to an ad hominem.
Her statements are right or wrong regardless of her bloodline, age, education, gender, race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation or even motives.
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Wait maybe I’m wrong here but dark skin aside aren’t the Dravidians Indians?
I mean I guess you could call them black because they have very dark skin but by that same token so do the Aryan Indians; not as dark as the darkest of black people but certainly as dark as some of the lighter skinned ones….
So deepdkchocolate are you saying you believe dark skinned people to be superior to yourself?
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Sebastian Kim should do a photo shoot for an editorial called “china doll” but be sure to use Heidi Klum as the model.
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@deepdkchocolate
This also raises the question about how a black artist in the spotlight treats other cultures and peoples in their work. Azealia Banks, for example, among others, has “taken” from Indian cultures (India).
Ms Banks made a style out of wearing bindi, tikka, nose-ring, trying to imitate the Goddess Kali with the tongue sticking out. And doing a yoga pose.
Ms. Banks is of West Indian ancestry which means she may very well have South Asian ancestry like I do. While I have never really been interested in exploring that culture with the exception of Buddhism. If Azelia wants to explore that part if her culture then more power to her.
Dravidians are not black – Researchers have uncovered DNA evidence linking Indian tribes to Australian Aboriginal people, supporting the theory humans arrived in Australia from Africa via a southern coastal route through India.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-07-24/dna-confirms-prehistoric-coastal-trek-to-australia/1365824?section=justin
@truthbetold
The pineal gland is a small endocrine gland in the vertebrate brain. It produces the serotonin derivative melatonin, a hormone that affects the modulation of wake/sleep patterns and seasonal functions.
Melantonin is not melanin. Melanin is produced by cells called melanocytes located in the bottom layer of the skin’s epidermis, the middle layer of the eye, the inner ear, meninges, bones, and heart.
Writers can speculate all the want to about melanin but unless they have data based on reliable and valid experimentation utilizing the scientific method it is as speculative as astrology.
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GOD! cant these people just end already!!! Enough is Enough of them and their evil way’s.
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From what I understand Dravidians are MORE distantly related to black Africans than whites because they left Africa longer ago – among the first wave of Homo sapiens. But they did not lose their black appearance, particularly their skin colour, because they remained in the tropics where they needed it.
What we think of as race is skin deep and is affected more by climate than close genetic relationship.
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@Abagond
You are right that Dravidians are more distantly related to Black Africans than Whites. It is obvious just by looking at them and plus I studied it in History as well.
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Adeen
Remember when Beyoncé was painted in Black face several years back. I find this incident similar to this incident because using Beyoncé was telling the world that they(Whites) feel that light skin Black women are prettier than dark skin Black women like myself. I don’t hate Beyoncé. I happen to love her music but I have to call out evil.
Criss Said: light skin women are not better then darker skin dont be FOOLED be the anti-blackness people’s in this “MEAN NASTY AMERIKLAN” it’s all a white agaenda against Black Folks. those kind will never be better then the original women.
No matter what people may tell. you our women are the real “DEAL”.
Other’s, copy our women from everything, you can name!
blackwomen survivor things that other women(and men) wish they could have,the blackwomen is “HATED” for who she is and where she come from and how she over came all the hate, jealousy, and envy.and is to darker skin women i’m talking about here.
so with all the B.S. in this world! do you blame black women for being who she is!? lol
WHO RUN THE WORLD? BlackWomen! that’s who. lol
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why are people Jealous of dark-skin blackwomen!??
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“I know that Black American women have a lot to be angry about, but don’t you think we sometimes lose some opportunities when we express that anger like a sword. I think we have to choose more carefully who we show the sword because some of them could become our strong allies.”
Unfortunately not all of us are angry. I can’t personally say that I or anyone I know has missed some grand opportunity because of my expressions of anger. To be honest I don’t know anyone that has but this plays into the angry black woman sterotype for me.
In response to the post as a whole I can’t really say much that has not already been said. I do believe he may have tried to be edgy and perhaps contraversal to get some media credit. I think the art would have been just as beautiful had he used a black model.
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I am Pro-Black.
Thanks, Abagond.
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This doesn’t surprise me. This doesn’t shock me. Frankly, I feel very little emotion connected to this event. Do people really expect their oppressors to respect them? These people are not your friends. They are not your mentors. They are not your peers. At best, the majority are apathetic to your existence. At worst, they desire your annihilation. Heck, they’ll even hurt themselves just so that can hurt you too.
Is the Path really that obscured?
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@ Kwamla
The 10% would be the ordinary us v them kind of thing that seems to be universal to human society – the “tribalism” that white commenters love to conflate with white racism.
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@ Cornlia
I do not have a post like that.
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@ someguy
My feelings are the same. I am just not surprised by this in the slightest.
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This is insulting. But what’s even more insulting is Kim’s insincere apology.
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Dravidians are not black – Researchers have uncovered DNA evidence linking Indian tribes to Australian Aboriginal people, supporting the theory humans arrived in Australia from Africa via a southern coastal route through India.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-07-24/dna-confirms-prehistoric-coastal-trek-to-australia/1365824?section=justin
DDC:LOL..Ok again white people telling us who is black and who is not black. This info coming from the same people who tell us that bi-racial people r not black.
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“Sigh”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550859/Aborigines-came-out-of-Africa-study-shows.html
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@CrissJensen
I am glad that you are pro Black and appreciate darker skin Black women like me. Reading your post, you actually seemed to highlight my frustrations without realizing it!
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@deepdkchocolate
DDC:LOL..Ok again white people telling us who is black and who is not black. This info coming from the same people who tell us that bi-racial people r not black.
So DNA is the white man’s tool to hide the true nature of Davidians??? Sheesh I can’t figure out how to respond to that type of paranoia.
What a mixed race person identifies as is their own business. Personally I can’t understand why someone would want to hide African ancestry in the 21st century. My grandmother passed for entry into the US and employment. She was an miserable color-struck woman. My dad made sure I knew that black was beautiful. If others don’t feel that way that is their loss.
“Sigh”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1550859/Aborigines-came-out-of-Africa-study-shows.html
EVERY HUMAN came out of Africa. Are Thai African? Are Norwegians African? How about the Inuit?
We built the pyramids, Great Zimbabwe, Dogon cosmology, The Benin Bronzes, Geez, Timbuktu University and so much more. People of African descent have done so much why do some feel the need to make mess when our history is so amazing?
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@deepdkchocolate
That article is just confirming that all non-Africans are descendants of the original group that left E. Africa approximately 70,000 ybp. With the exception of North Africans and Middle Easterners (because of recent migrations back and forth), the rest of the world is more or less equally related to their common African ancestor.
If you look at the link above, you’ll see that the Australian Aborigines today are actually the furthest genetically from Africans than any other population in the world because they’ve been separated from Africans the longest.
Secondly as an Indian, I can tell you that Dravidians, while they are quite dark, are even further genetically than the Indo-Aryans are to Africans. Actually, there’s no such thing in India as an Aryan vs. Dravidian. All Dravidian means is South in Sanskrit.
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@V-4
This is an interesting statement:
“Looking at the model; she may have had black in her but its been a few generations at best…..”
I wonder what it means: “”black in her”
I wonder if people realize (not only V-4) how deeply they believe in the concepts of that “race” has spread all over this world in the last 300 years.
When I read stuff like that I always think “man, these racists did it, they managed to wrap people in their thoughts”.
“black in her” This shows how deep their ideas have invaded our minds.
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In fact the DNA study of the Dravidians indicates that there was no Aryan invasion of Northern India. Science, I love you!
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_new-research-debunks-aryan-invasion-theory_1623744
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@Abagond
it would be nice if you could be more precise, because it is NOT in my habits to insult people. I like discussing ideas. I hate it when people start discussing people because that’s when they have ran out of arguments. So I don’t think I deserve the “doubt”. Not very “fair”. Or nice.
“@ Franklin, Jorbia, Cornlia
Deleted some of your posts – either because they were on something declared off topic or because they sunk to little more than personal insults.”
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he perspective approach to history has been one of constructed mystification. Anthropology is a conjured up science for categorizing people and is blatantly wedged in erroneous idiotic sequences for mass stupefaction. The following statement is an example: The indigenous Negritos of Australia are described as a “SPECIAL MODIFICATION OF THE NEGROID TYPE” by early explorers. (Isn’t that a statement of stupidity?)—a special modification. Why were they a special modification, and who modified them–GOD? The White man has always had a freaked out imagination that he discovered the world. Once he arrived in Asia, Oceania, and other termed “exotic places,” he found Blacks already there. He couldn’t explain his findings so he termed the “denials—refusals to explain” or “mysteries.” As you will see, Africans were not contained only in the Continent of Africa.
Two ancient skulls, one from central Africa and the other from the Black Sea Republic of Georgia, have shaken the human family tree to its roots, sending scientists scrambling to see if their favorite theories are among the fallen fruit. This skull is the earliest known record of the human family which was discovered in Chad (Central Africa). The new find was nicknamed ‘Toumai’ and comes from the little-known interval of human lineage. Christopher Columbus knew that the African Mali Tribe had come to America almost 200 years before he set foot on American soil.
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Why r all my comments being hemmed up for “moderation”?
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@deepdkchocolate
“White women benefit from their exalted status as the purported most desirable women in the world.They benefit from being the women of white supremacy if they moan about black women and the freedoms they enjoy laws will be implemented to curtail these freedoms. White women have toiled hard to advance white supremacy and milk it for all it’s worth now they can freely miscegenate just like their men, Oh joy joy! They can have sex with men of color , bring forth spawn and raise them to be “white” despite the obvious..lol..”
You know, it would be a good thing if it sometimes happened that you would realize (not only you, but all the people who write such things as what you wrote here) that not all women designated and labeled as “white” accept it and embrace it. I don’t.
However, I and others who feel like me know that in this society we do benefit from being labeled as such. So when we have a conscience (when our gland is not too calcified) we ACT to try and change things (yes we do).
That there are “white women who have toiled hard to advance white supremacy” is a fact. It is a fact for several reasons, the two main ones being that they are under control, like everybody else in white supremacy who doesn’t realize they are part of a system AND they benefit from it (who wouldn’t accept to rip the fruit of a system ? Unless they have a conscience and a sense of morality – it happens, when their gland is not too calcified)
My children are what you so nicely describe at the end of your rant. If you imagine yourself in my place what do you say ? Does that sound like an insult to light-skinned women who love, cherish and have married a man of African descent ? In that case, he is African. And very proud of it. And I have always known my children would be, first “cute babies”, then “cute kids”, then… huh huh, adolescence strikes and my son could be a Trayvon Martin. My daughter, well, a prey. I know all that, deepdkchocolate.
And your post was insulting. Generalizations are always insulting.
BUT, I know what history is about, and I know that their is a lot of anger, bitterness and sometimes hatred (not your case). But the “melanin theory” is actually triggering hatred. It is visible in many posts on the net. Simply because it contains the original seeds of racism. The belief that “something inside” rules the outside. In the past it was “humors” (fluids), “blood”, and all kinds of other stuffs, including “temperament” and “complexion” (as the mixture of all the above) that were supposed to determine “what” a human being was. Sometimes it determined its not-so-human fabric.
Please, imagine individuals who have brains and can think outside the box. That way you may avoid insult and actually discuss realities (what you said is reality for some).
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The ABO blood group system was discovered in 1901 and since it is of major importance in medicine, samples have been collected diligently from the remotest of people for nearly a century. Of no other human characteristic is so much data available. What sticks out is the fact that more than half of all Andamanese Negritos are of blood group A although it should be noted that the sample sizes are tiny and therefore subject to fairly large potential errors. Worldwide, group A is strongest in parts of Europe, in Turkey, in Japan and among the Inuit (Eskimo) people. More relevant to the Andamanese may be the fact that Australian Aborigines speak one of the Pama-Nyungan languages and come nearest to the Andamanese Blood Group “A” Frequencies. In the center and eastern parts of Australia the Aborigines reach up to 45% of the population, while all other Australian Aborigines have group A frequencies below 20%. A more reliable determinant has been DNA testing that was developed in the 1980’s.
Picture of Negritos from The Philippines
Relatives of the Negritos (Andaman Association)
1. The Malaysian Negrito
2. The Philippine Negrito
3. The Shompen of Great Nicobar
4. The Moken of the Burma Coast
5. The Vedda of Sri Lanka
6. The Veddoid of Southern India
7. The Dravidians of India
8. The Naga of India
9. The Kubu of Sumatra and others
10. The Ayome of New Guinea and others
11. The Papuans of Papua-NewGuinea
12. The Melanesians of the Pacific
13. The Australians
14. The Tasmanians
15. The Khoisan of South Africa
16. The Pygmies of Central Africa
17. Negritos in Japan and China
18. Negritos in the Americas and “Luzia”
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@ Cornlia, ur boring me.. Cease and desist. i will not respond to ur posts any longer, to set up here and deny the place white woman have taken in the advancement of white supremacy is erroneous. And to deny it is silly. u used ur power as white women to enact laws designed to oppress people of color whether it was crying rape, which u still do to this day , or blaming a black man for car-jacking ur children or enacting laws like the famous chignon laws that forced black women to cover their locks because y’all figured this would arrest white man’s interst in the black woman. do ur research on the topic and know this , i don’t really care how u feel. K?
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And sharing ur life story with me is NOT the way to go. not interested . Thanks.
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@ Cornlia
I said that black matriarchy was off topic. You kept on with the topic even after I said that, so those comments got deleted. I do not remember you making personal remarks.
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Also, deepdkchocolate, a 1966 study is *a little* old to account for research on melanin…
Apart from that… I’m going to get deeper into that literature that wants to look scientific, but at the same time doesn’t, because “science is white people’s stuff”, but they still need the scientific recognition… This just looks, sounds and smells so much like 17th and 18th century scientists inventing “race” (with all kind of contradictory variables to fit their goals, views and their time’s politics/policies -colonialism, slavery and expansion).
I’m just curious (this I always say with a little smile on the side of my mouth): so, according to what transpires of that theory (which is not a fact but a theory), has Mr Obama half a calcified gland ?
And so-called “mixed children” (notwithstanding the fact that we are all mixed because we all have two parents with different backgrounds), do they have half-, quarter-, sixteenth- etc calcified glands ?
How does it work, does it dilute the calcification, or is half, a quarter, a sixteenth of the gland calcified or vice-versa depending on the “race” (which doesn’t exist because it is the invention of the racists, a product of their sick minds) ?
Or is it spotted or striped calcification, like they imagine “mixed” people to be back in the days of Rabelais and Shakespeare ?
No need to reply, I know the answers, I’m just practicing my own scientific observation, hypothesis and conclusion.
The melanin theory is going to make a lot of people ashamed of themselves, unfortunately, or maybe not. It is just a pity that its main postulate is “race”. Because without “race” as a basis, it just doesn’t function. It needs “white people” and “black people” for its demonstration. And it is a pity that “race” is the “white man’s” invention. So it is a pity that they would try and defeat the “white man” by basing their battle on his stuff.
“Humors-“, “blood-” and “all-the-other-racist-stuff” people are not ashamed of themselves. They think racism is over and are very proud of it. They make photos for Numéro magazine and are very proud of them, do really see why they should apologize or even what for.
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“don’t really see” ^
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Also, deepdkchocolate, a 1966 study is *a little* old to account for research on melanin
U live in this weird little world where u make ur own rules and everyone else is supposed to go with it. like “we estabished that there is no such thing as race” who did this? the voices in ur head? When was the earth found to be round? so that study would be “a little” old to account for research? I mean, what? I don’t even find u worth having any sort of discussion with. Please leave me alone. Ur boring.
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deepdkchocolate, I think you need to read more, a lot more, before you can come up with REAL arguments, instead of personal “attacks”, which to me sound like playground stuff. And are usually the sign of lack or argument.
But u won’t debate me on any topic. i rest me case.
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deepdkchocolate, I hadn’t seen your posts above.
Saying for instance, that I “deny the role white women have played in white supremacy” is like stating that you don’t understand a word I’m saying. Because I said the exact opposite.
So, yeah, why don’t you just stop reading my posts and we’ll be fine.
As far as my “life story”, it served as an illustration that generalizations do not fit reality.
But you apparently prefer to make it something personal rather than discuss the possibility that people act and react differently to historical and sociological facts.
So be it.
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And if i had launched into any personal attacks, I am pretty positive Agabond would delete my comments.”shrugs”.
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deepdkchocolate, I hadn’t seen your posts above.
Saying for instance, that I “deny the role white women have played in white supremacy” is like stating that you don’t understand a word I’m saying. Because I said the exact opposite.
DDC: I could care less.If u agree with me why r u arguing with me?
So, yeah, why don’t you just stop reading my posts and we’ll be fine
DDC: I read whatever I like, u have no control over what I read..
As far as my “life story”, it served as an illustration that generalizations do not fit reality.
DDC: Save it for someone who cares.
But you apparently prefer to make it something personal rather than discuss the possibility that people act and react differently to historical and sociological
facts.
So be it.
DDC:
ur the one droning on about ur tiresome existence and I am making things “personal”? I have had to instruct u and several of ur cohorts not to drift into the personal. i don;t care who u r who ur married to what ur racial background is, I could care less, try sticking to the topic.
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I already disclaimed it. DDC
Your posts make me feel nothing, so don’t worry, you don’t have to care.
I don’t have a problem with any info, DDC, I am interested in all info. I think I explained enough of what I think so that you and others can see that I know *a little bit* of what I’m talking about. I said I am going to read all that literature about melanin, but I guess you missed that sentence.
You are behaving so childishly that I’m going to leave it at that. I guess Abagond will erase these posts because frankly, what’s the use discussing when one side doesn’t even quote and comment anything but simply talks about the poster ? I am talking about what you post, not about you.
What about the state of the gland in so called “mixed people” heh ? Any article about that (not dating back to 1966 or 1901 – the very period when the worst of racism was finally completed)
Oh btw, I watched the video. Guess what ? I have followed the right diet all my life ! So my gland is safe.
*sigh*
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Secondly as an Indian, I can tell you that Dravidians, while they are quite dark, are even further genetically than the Indo-Aryans are to Africans. Actually, there’s no such thing in India as an Aryan vs. Dravidian. All Dravidian means is South in Sanskrit.
DDC:Africa extended into what is now called India. The Dravidians or original peoples sometimes referred to as Dalits are Ethiopians/Africans. The term Dalits means Bound and the name may have been given to them by those who enslaved them and put them in a racist caste system at the lowest levels. the Dalits or Dravidians were the indigenous peoples of India or the Eastern Ethiopians or Eastern Africans.
“Of particular significance is archeologist B. B. Lal’s contention that the Dravidians probably came from Nubia, Upper Egypt. This theory would give them among other things their Mediterranean features and dark complexion. Lal writes: “At Timos the Indian team dug up several megalithic sites of ancient Nubians which bear an uncanny resemblance to the cemeteries of early Dravidians which are found all over Western India from Kathiawar to Cape Comorin. The intriguing similarity extends from the subterranean structure found near them. Even the earthenware ring-stands used by the Dravidians and Nubians to hold pots were identical.” According to Lal, the Nubian megaliths date from around 1000 B.C.”
Courtesy of ur greek boy Herodotus..
” The Eastern Ethiopians, [ ie. Sudras ] differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the Eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world. ”
” [I]n other respects India is not unlike Ethiopia, and the Indian rivers have crocodiles like the Ethiopian and Egyptian Nile; and some of the Indian rivers have fish and other large water animals like those of the Nile, save the river-horse: though Onesicritus states that they do have the river-horse also. The appearance of the inhabitants, too, is not so far different in India and Ethiopia; the southern Indians resemble the Ethiopians a good deal, and, are black of countenance, and their hair black also, only they are not as snub-nosed or so woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; but the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians in appearance. ” Arrian, `Anabasis Alexandri, Book VIII (Indica),’ Chapter 6, tr. E. Iliff Robson (1933
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I already disclaimed it. DDC
DDC: Disclaimed what?
Your posts make me feel nothing, so don’t worry, you don’t have to care.
DDC: Yet u keep posting to me..lol.
I don’t have a problem with any info, DDC, I am interested in all info. I think I explained enough of what I think so that you and others can see that I know *a little bit* of what I’m talking about. I said I am going to read all that literature about melanin, but I guess you missed that sentence.
DDC” No, I can’t really make it through any of ur posts.
You are behaving so childishly that I’m going to leave it at that. I guess Abagond will erase these posts because frankly, what’s the use discussing when one side doesn’t even quote and comment anything but simply talks about the poster ? I am talking about what you post, not about you.
DDC: LOL. I guess that would be up to him.And u haven’t disclaimed anything u just drone on with ur usual banalities.How many posts have u addressed to me? How many have actually addressed the topic @ hand? None.
What about the state of the gland in so called “mixed people” heh ? Any article about that (not dating back to 1966 or 1901 – the very period when the worst of racism was finally completed)
DDC: If u would like to know more about that i suggest u read u don’t seem to do enough of that and asking people u r dismissive of for info is kinda dumb.
Oh btw, I watched the video. Guess what ? I have followed the right diet all my life ! So my gland is safe.
DDC: Whoop de-doo.
*sigh*
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Forget the black-face. I find it very hard to believe that Ondria Hardin is actually a model.
To each his own, I guess.
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I already disclaimed it DDC, but you don’t read the posts.
Have a good night. As we say in my country “night brings good advice”.
But I doubt it will work in your case.
Oh and by the way, when I say that races don’t exist, I mean biologically. Socially, of course, and a lot of people make sure they continue to exist for a very long time.
I wonder, why on earth do you continue talking to me if it’s to say nothing ? Plus, I’m supposed to be boring.
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I guess you both are interesting to each other on some level.
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Sharina, our differing visions very certainly are, but I don’t think she sees it… and actually wants to discuss anything.
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I wanted to step away from this conversation but I just need to correct something. Mexico imported relatively few African slaves. They worked in the gold mines in the state of Vera Cruz. The percentage of African ancestry in the average mestizo/a is between 1-5%. George Lopez did a DNA test in his talk show and found to his surprise her was 4% black. The scientific method as strict rules. An experiment must be reliably repeated & it must accurately measure the data that is manipulated in the experiment (validity.) Here are 3 studies that back up my supposition*:
According to a paper presented by the American Society of Human Genetics Mexicans were found to be 58.96% European, 36.05% Asian (Amerindian), and 5.03% African. Sonora shows the highest European contribution (70.63%) and Guerrero the lowest (51.98%). In Guerrero one also observes the highest Asian (Amerindian) contribution (37.17%). African contribution ranges from 2.8% in Sonora to 11.13% in Veracruz.[30] Sixty percent of the Mexican population was classed as mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish), 30% as mainly Amerindian ancestry and 10% as white.[31]
Another study,[32] one focusing on the general population in five Latin American nations — Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico, and Puerto Rico, — estimated that about half (50.1%) of Mexican ancestry was of Amerindian origin; 44.3%, European; and 5.6%, African. Compared to the other Latin American countries, Mexico was found to have the smallest amount of African admixture. Mexico has the second largest amount of Amerindian ancestry, topped by Ecuador.
A paper[33] specifically focusing on Mexican mestizos, has found them to be mostly Amerindian (55.2%) but also having a large amount of European admixture (41.8%). African ancestry was found to be 1.8% and East Asian ancestry, 1.2%. The samples were drawn from six Mexican cities: Sonora and Zacatecas (ZAC) in the north, Guanajuato in the center, Guerrero in the center–Pacific, Veracruz in the center–Gulf, and Yucatán in the southeast. As to regional differences, it was found that Guerrero had the largest degree of both Amerindian and African admixture (66% and 4.1% respectively), and Sonora, the largest degree of European ancestry (61.6%).
*From wikipedia.
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I wanted to step away from this conversation but I just need to correct something. Mexico imported relatively few African slaves. They worked in the gold mines in the state of Vera Cruz. The percentage of African ancestry in the average mestizo/a is between 1-5%. George Lopez did a DNA test in his talk show and found to his surprise her was 4% black. The scientific method as strict rules. An experiment must be reliably repeated & it must accurately measure the data that is manipulated in the experiment (validity.) Here are 3 studies that back up my supposition*:
DDC:
More african people were trafficked to Mexico than the entire united states. u r a paragon of misinformation.More than 10 percent of the Mexican population once looked markedly African. Note: That time period is after the Olmecs! The nearly complete absorption of Mexico’s identifiably African people offers an intriguing contrast to the persistence of a rather distinct Black race in the United States. At least 200,000 Black slaves were imported into Mexico from Africa. By 1810, Mexicans considered at least part African members of the population numbered around a half million, or more than 10 percent of the population.
Mexican music, for example, has deep roots in West Africa. “La Bamba,” the famous Mexican folk song that was given a rock beat by Ritchie Valens and a classic interpretation by Los Lobos, has been traced back to the Bamba district of Angola. What’s especially ironic about Mexico’s “racial amnesia”—a term coined by African-American historian Ted Vincent—is that during Mexico’s first century of independence, more than a few of its most famous leaders were visibly part black.
Nevertheless, the official ideology of Mexico has been that the Mexicans are simply a “mestizo” people—a mixture of Spaniards and Indians—officially referred to as “La Raza” or “The Race.” Since 1928, Mexico has celebrated Oct. 12 as “The Day of The Race.” On Oct. 12, 1946, Mexican politician José Vasconcelos famously declared Mestizos to be “the cosmic race.”
The Mexican populace’s African “third root” is occasionally honored, but Mexican officials have generally ignored it. University of Minnesota
demographer Robert McCaa wrote, “Afro-Mexicans, who numbered one-half million in 1810, more or less vanished, thoroughly intermingled and unidentifiable by 1895 if the official discourse is accepted at face value.”
There are self-consciously Afro-Mexican communities on the Gulf of Mexico near Vera Cruz, where the slave ships docked. There are heavily black villages on the Costa Chica on the Pacific, although the residents tend to see themselves as simply Mexicans with dark skins. One confusing factor is that Mexico also imported slaves from across the Pacific, including some African-looking New Guineans and also Negritos from the Philippines.
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@ Bulanik, thank you. I was going to dig up this information but you beat me to it. South American history is just as harsh to digest for black people as North American history. The only different was that South America found ways to eliminate or limit their African culture. Argentina being one of the most active.
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If people knew anything about South America, they would know that compared to Argentina, Equador and Chile, Uruguai has a notable black population and powerful black cultural heritage…
What was really discussed before was how could 10 million slaves be brought over the Red Sea and yet there is no huge indication of Afro diasporic culture like you find in Brazil , which had several millions of slaves brought over, and the Afro diasporic culture is blatent, its blatent in any country that had large black African slave populations.
Argentina doesnt have a huge Afro diasoporic culture and was used wrongly as an example of how it could have happened across the Red Sea (yeah, Tango was influenced by the Habanera from Cuba, but, it is a perfect example of a watered down Afro diasporic groove, with breaks and slow downs in certain points)…the analogy is wrong because the numbers dont compare with the numbers brought over the Red Sea, you have to use Brazil as the model…like I said, Uruguai has a much bigger Afro diasporic culture
I said there are pockets in countries like Agentina and Chile and that is what they are in comparison to Brazil…I live in South America, they bring bus loads of Argentinians, mostly blue collar, the rich ones go to Rio, and , native South American is much more in effect than Afro diasporic…but, that doesnt deny that there are descendants of slaves from Argentina…but, get for real in comparison with Brazil…that is the real comparison to 10 million slaves being brought over the Red Sea…not Argentina…
This is the problem with intellectualising things from statistics or googling things up compared to actual on the ground reality
I dont have anything to say about Mexico, because I dont live there and can comment on it with any authority, but I live here in South America, and see Argentinians up close in big numbers
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Obviously the census figures can be skewed…based on how people want to describe themselves
If you knew anything about where I live, you would have strongly brought in Uruguai as an example of a country with a notable black Afro diasporic presence and culture in comparison to Equador, Chile and Argentina..
Everything Im saying is acurate….I didnt deny an Afro diasporic presence in Argentina, I put it in the exact perspective it does represent.
when intellectualism is used to try to trump reality, it is extremly damaging
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@King of trouble
“@ Bulanik, thank you. I was going to dig up this information but you beat me to it. South American history is just as harsh to digest for black people as North American history. The only different was that South America found ways to eliminate or limit their African culture. Argentina being one of the most active.”
“eliminate or limit” or simply “hide” ?
Because it seems to me that African culture(s) are very much alive in most of South America, they are not publicized, but they are there to those who see them, hear and maybe even smell them (food). What lacks is probably a political strength on the part of the diaspora to put these aspects forth in the contemporary culture. But that’s all i would know.
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Bulanik or B.R. (I don’t remember which one of you did last year: could you help me with the quoting and inserting things (pics, video, text) ? You told me once but I have no idea in which thread. I’ll keep the info so I can reuse it if I forget. Thanks.
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@DDCThe Dravidians or original peoples sometimes referred to as Dalits are Ethiopians/Africans. The term Dalits means Bound and the name may have been given to them by those who enslaved them and put them in a racist caste system at the lowest levels. the Dalits or Dravidians were the indigenous peoples of India or the Eastern Ethiopians or Eastern Africans.
The word “Dravidian” is a recent one and stems from the Sanskrit word for south which is Dravida. It refers to a language group – not race because S. Indians speak Dravidian languages. And the caste has nothing to do with race. All Indians are genetically closely related to each other. Dalits and Dravidians are totally different. There are Dalits in N. India that have green and blue eyes and very fair in complexion and there are upper castes in the South that are very dark.
And you are quoting people from antiquity who did not have the benefit of genetic studies and ones that are not geneticists. There’s an abundance of genetic studies on the Indian population conducted by Indian geneticists and results are all the same, i.e., Indians are all related to each other and quite distant from Africans.
If you read Friday Foster’s link, it will tell you that there’s been negligible genetic input into India in the last 60k years and even the small amount is from Central and West Asia.
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Kwamla said: “It has already been scientifically proven (do an internet goggle search) and announced that Modern man is a combination of hominid species, Caucasians and Asians have from 1% – 4% Neanderthal DNA, Africans don’t have any!…Further…
“…The initial Anunnaki version of human being was the Neanderthal man. The Sirians developed this prototype further to Cro-Magnon man, from which modern man subsequently evolved…”
Of course this part is what “official science” has yet to admit or disclose. But you can find this from other sources of information on my FB & Twitter blog if interested.
Racism: white supremacy, has a biological along with a political basis. Its more than just a dreamed up ideology that could just have easily been adopted and applied by any other cultural group – Asians, Africans etc..because the world view or cosmic perceptions of these groups was totally different from the Europeans. This is why these perceptions, along with the ancient indigenous groups of these people had to be conquered, assimilated or exterminated.
When you look at a literal backward translation of the word: Original what do you find hidden?
La-nigiro Co:incidence?”
What does the fact that Europeans/light-skinned humans (not Caucasian please, this is the racists classification and frankly I am kinda fed up with that acceptation of the BS) and Asians “have from 1% – 4% Neanderthal DNA” prove ? That they are inferior, stupid, not evolved, idiotic, have a big forehead ? What does it imply to “say” this ?
What does the “Anunnaki version of man” explain or say ? What do you mean by quoting it ?
So now suddenly we are not all the descendents of the first humans who lived on the continent now called Africa ?
Is the theory of evolution abandoned altogether ? Are we know in a monogenesis or polygenesis paradigm ? Or better, a creationist one ?
“Racism: white supremacy, has a biological along with a political basis. Its more than just a dreamed up ideology”
Just saying it doesn’t make it true. Proving it would help.
“dreamed up ideology”. Now, that would be nice, but the problem is that it wasn’t dreamed up at all. It was constructed, it evolved, it was applied and perpetuated.
So basically, this vision of things will have the very unfortunate effect of denying and dismissing the very active political and sociological impact of concepts developed by Europeans.
So those of my ancestors who developed this in fact didn’t do anything ? They now have an excuse put forth by some of the very people they oppressed…
They were poor, weak creatures whose “nature” was not complete. Poor them. It was their fault, it was their pineal gland’s fault.
This is what happens when you naturalize politics. Exactly what happened with the African: “oh, it’s not his fault, his humors, his skin, his brains are not totally developed, he is still a child. We are going to fortify him by making him work for us.”
This is precisely what the theories of races did. Bit by bit, they transfered political concepts into biological ones, supposedly irrefutable ones. That is the reason why I am saying some Afro-writers are taking a dangerous path.
Dismissing the action of the racists on a biological basis is not the way to go. It’s justifying them.
And again and finally, relying on that very theory that races are for real biologically is a fundamental flaw. Unless the racists were right.
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@ Cornilia
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8SR13ZvR-w)
this is what Uruguai has that Argentina doesnt…you can find videos of Argentinans playing drums, but, not like this…this is a distinct Afro diasporic beat ….
in the context to the original discusion, 10 million slaves being brought over the Red Sea, and where is the referance to the Afro diasporic cultures like you find in places like Brazil , with millions of slaves brought there, my take on Argentina is acurate
Cornlia, I only know that you put parenthasis around youtube links so they wont be the whole picture
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Thanks King.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkDvArGmxl4&NR=1&feature=endscreen)
where you might find Argentinians parading down a street with a march beat on drums, its not a cultural expresion like condombe (not condomble like brazil) in Uruguai
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_iC5IJ4CwE)
Argentinian drumming….nice…but no groove…they keep changing up
the 6/8 part they are doing is more related to flamenco aproach, and they have it in the south of Brazil and call it Gaucho music
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King of trouble
@ Bulanik, thank you. I was going to dig up this information but you beat me to it. South American history is just as harsh to digest for black people as North American history. The only different was that South America found ways to eliminate or limit their African culture. Argentina being one of the most active.
DDC:?? hard to digest for black people? How so?How did South America “Find ways to eliminate or limit their African culture?”
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN0DSM33N48)
another great example of Argentinian drumming, bomboleguero, which does implicate afro 6/8 sometimes, but, it goes in and out and changes tempo, and the 6/8 , many times is more related to the 12/8 in flamenco
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And I thought it was possible to get pics to appear… Maybe I saw that somewhere else.
Let me try this… who knows it may work….
The example of a lie in reversed mode from Numéro’s African Queen which I already posted above.
Abagond you can erase this post if the embedding doesn’t work. And tell me if what I’m attempting is possible here, thanks.
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Minnesota Mom;
The word “Dravidian” is a recent one and stems from the Sanskrit word for south which is Dravida. It refers to a language group – not race because S. Indians speak Dravidian languages. And the caste has nothing to do with race. All Indians are genetically closely related to each other. Dalits and Dravidians are totally different. There are Dalits in N. India that have green and blue eyes and very fair in complexion and there are upper castes in the South that are very dark.
DDC: Really? Because earlier this is what u posted..
Minnesota Mom:
Secondly as an Indian, I can tell you that Dravidians, while they are quite dark, are even further genetically than the Indo-Aryans are to Africans. Actually, there’s no such thing in India as an Aryan vs. Dravidian. All Dravidian means is South in Sanskrit.
DDC:Umm there r blacks in Africa with blue and green eyes from bloodlines that have had 0 contact with caucasians.. And caste in India is very much tied to race and skin color, u know this with women like Aishwarya Rai who as a light-skinned blue eyed Indian woman whose unique beauty isn’t exactly reflective of the every day East Indian woman. lol.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3qcHUMwdHk)
another great powerful example of Argentinian drumming, with this one even more referance to a 6/8 feeling, but, its really more like a 3/4 feeling, counting 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3…and more referances to a flamenco feel and with starts and stops and divisions of the time like you dont see in the Uruguanian drumming that is groove from beginning to end…that is a major differance
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I already disclaimed it DDC, but you don’t read the posts.
Have a good night. As we say in my country “night brings good advice”.
But I doubt it will work in your case.
Oh and by the way, when I say that races don’t exist, I mean biologically. Socially, of course, and a lot of people make sure they continue to exist for a very long time.
I wonder, why on earth do you continue talking to me if it’s to say nothing ? Plus, I’m supposed to be boring.
DDC: U r very boring and no u haven’t disclaimed a thing , that is why most of the convo was deleted.. Nobody wants to read ur life story or bear witness to the fact that u have difficulty staying on topic.. “smile” Ask ur boy why it was deleted. it wasn’t because of ur Sterling scientific input..lol.
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@deepdkchocolate
Sorry, I ment hard to stomach, been a long time since I’ve had to use idioms. I feel like Biff in back to the future.
If you were reading the comments you would know that they threw a lot black men on the front lines. Having some of the highest mortality rates was a very effective way of getting rid of a population. It is more effective than even locking us up. Once you are dead you can’t have anymore offspring. Then you write in your history books that because slavery was frown upon by the Catholic Church not too many slaves were brought to South America.
http://www.academia.edu/328658/Indigenous_Slavery_in_South_America_1492-1820
http://www.realhistories.org.uk/articles/archive/slavery-in-latin-america.html
Bulanik already explain about front line blacks so I feel no need to go further. However if you ask I will try to remember what books and authors I have read up on that.
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@DDC
Where’s the contradiction? Genetic distance between S. Indians and E. Africans is .33 while that between N. Indians and E. Africans is .31 so N. Indians are only slightly closer because of admixture from Iranians who have significant Arab ancestry. Here’s a link showing where Indians are in a genetic twig. And N. and S. Indians are most closely related to each other irrespective of caste or religion.
And no, caste has nothing to do with skin color. A North Indian Dalit, on average, will be much lighter than a South Indian Brahmin (upper caste). I know because I lived in India in the South. And Aish Rai is a Dravidian and not very typical for a S. Indian. And Aish Rai is not even a Brahmin.
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deepdkchocolate, you don’t read other people’s comments, because you are not here to debate, not even to disagree.
You are the type that constantly points to the poster instead of discussing topics. The manipulative type that thinks that because you are “debasing” me, others will consider my opinion worthless. Others couldn’t care less. They are here to learn.
About this:
“Umm there r blacks in Africa with blue and green eyes from bloodlines that have had 0 contact with caucasians.”
I wonder, really, how do you know ? Like, you know it all ?
First, there are a lot of albino people in these regions (a lot of twins too, btw). So it may stem from that. (By the way, you never answered that question: what about albino people and their pineal gland ? Does the fact that THEY have no melanin make them not “black” ? Because if all this is biology, then we have a problem here)
And there have been Europeans (not Caucasians) there for many many years, links with between Africa and Europe are old. As old as the earth, I would almost say. Only racists don’t want us to know that. Among others, Ivan Van Sertima has shown some of it.
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Abagond: I understand only with a lot of difficulty that you would delete DDC’s post about the US census and the following discussion. I think it was relevant in the discussion. The whole thing revolves around how “race” is a manipulative tool… The Census is a big machine in that scheme.
All: What do you all think of the Tut Ankh Amun reconstitution compared with the African Queen topic ?
Do you think they participate in the same attempt to minimize and “whiten” African monarchy in general ?
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@ Cornila
I hope you are able to implement some of the tips on commenting from the link King supplied. It will make reading and understanding your comments far more easier!
You pose many questions but also make many assumptions based on things you obviously know little about. Have you actually done any of your own internet research to try to find answers to many of the questions you raise?
Notice I did not say or imply in any of my last comment here that Europeans where: …inferior, stupid, not evolved, idiotic, have a big forehead… those were your assumptions and your words. I am quite capable of making those claims if I deemed them to be applicable.
I stated the DNA analysis to be clear about what presently accepted science has determined about one aspect of Human evolution on this planet. Previous comments I’d been reading before this seemed to be stating some confusion.
I don’t believe or subscribe to an evolutionary or biblical creationist theory of people on this planet. In fact I regard Darwinian theory as total nonsense! If you do a bit of investigation yourself you may find independent scientific studies which offer much evidence to this conclusion.
In fact: Polygenesis (biology), a theory of multiple independent origins of organisms from a common genetic pool. as one of the options you stated is probably far more accurate.
I’d like to make a suggestion to you Cornila. If you really want to understand the roots of racism: white supremacy then you will need to do a bit more research into, sometimes, seemingly unrelated topics you do not understand or know little about.
This at least might serve to quell the number of “knee jerk” questions you raise.
From your responses at the moment I am not convinced you have more than just a general understanding of racism. Which is probably why you never understand the first comment I made earlier in this thread.
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@DDC
I see where you might have been a little confused when I said that Dalits and Dravidians are totally different. What I actually meant to say is that the word Dalit refers to people of the lower castes both in the North and South while the word Dravidian refers to a group of languages spoken in the South. Some people have misapproriated the word Dravidian to mean people who speak Dravidian languages who happen to be mainly in the South.
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I think that a lot of the arguments/disruption here start and continue because some people here are confused about the difference between a person’s views, opinions, and FACTS. I know this is supposed to be a debating forum, but for some here, it seems to go far beyond a debate. Some people here obviously don’t believe that others are entitled to their opinions.
Also some people believe that if they can find an author or any source that agrees with their opinions, then other people here should just accept that source and agree with them. Why should anyone expect Person B to agree with them just because Person A agrees with them?
Anyone can write a book or article expressing their opinions, no matter how biased, and publish/spread it these days. Opinions and personal views are NOT facts. I’m always aware when people are stating their opinions vs facts.
Maybe Abagond could do a post here explaining the distinctions between facts and a person’s personal views/opinions.
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@ Cornlia
I don’t think its just an aim to whiten African monarchy but anything African deemed “valuable” altogether. Especially Africa(read black people). Anything great must be somehow linked to whiteness, and how can that stand when there is greatness in blackness, the very thing it often pitches itself against to affirm its merit. Whiteness must have a favorable position in the picture if it doesn’t outright own the whole thing.
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@Gen
Yep, that would correspond to the idea of “possession” that I proposed at the beginning of this thread.
In the case of this fashion article, there are two things that I wonder about:
they present this as the representation of a “queen”, but what I see here is more a way to snatch away the current “habit” in African-American social and press media to represent the “black” women as a “queens”, it has even become a way to designate “black women” for some.
It can be considered as a positive thing on one side, but it tends to obliterate the fact that the African women who were deported to the Americas and elsewhere were far from being queens. But that’s another topic, simply I think it is good to not forget all the village dwellers that were transported and enslaved.
I also realized when reading about this article first on FB that we don’t have much of an idea of what African queens looked like, apart from the Ancient Egyptian ones… Very often, men are portrayed.
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deepdkchocolate, you don’t read other people’s comments, because you are not here to debate, not even to disagree.
DDC: If that is what u would like to believe, feel free.
You are the type that constantly points to the poster instead of discussing topics.
DDC: No, that would be u.
The manipulative type that thinks that because you are “debasing” me, others will consider my opinion worthless. Others couldn’t care less. They are here to learn
.DDC: Still cannot get on topic. This is why ur last convo was deleted in it’s entirety. U don’t learn.
About this:
DDC:“Umm there r blacks in Africa with blue and green eyes from bloodlines that have had 0 contact with caucasians.”
I wonder, really, how do you know ? Like, you know it all ?
First, there are a lot of albino people in these regions
DDC: In what regions?
(a lot of twins too, btw). So it may stem from that. (By the way, you never answered that question: what about albino people and their pineal gland ? Does the fact that THEY have no melanin make them not “black” ? Because if all this is biology, then we have a problem here)
DDC: I told u before, if it is info u seek ,pick up a book and read it.
And there have been Europeans (not Caucasians) there for many many years, links with between Africa and Europe are old. As old as the earth, I would almost say. Only racists don’t want us to know that. Among others, Ivan Van
Sertima has shown some of it.
DDC:Europeans and caucasians where? R u capable of having an intelligent convo? ur all over the place.
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I didn’t know Erick Sermon, EPMD (shown in DeepChocolates video about light coloured eyes) was African. What country are his people from?
All I can say about the whole magazine thing is: Not surprised…it’s all about art, design and the next trend…if not, Alek Wek would never have gotten her chance in the fashion industry.
I would be more interested in hearing what Africans think about this? Do they feel insulted since there is a saying that “imitation is the best form of flattery”
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I can’t imagine how any African could feel flattered by this.
The reactions on the continent so far are negative:
http://www.shaddersafrica.com/beauty/black-models-2/white-model-ondria-hardin-poses-for-numero-magazine-as-african-queen-where-are-all-the-black-models
My opinion: Numéro’s stunt is just another instance of lazy, disrespectful, cultural appropriation. But that’s just me. I’m not the spokesperson for the whole African continent.
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^^So far, some of the commenters on the sites you posted consider it a positive that this White model was made to look like Blacks. They outright said they felt flattered or positive. Also, from reading those articles and some of the comments, they’re mostly looking at it from the “work” angle, saying that black models need more modeling job opportunities.
I didn’t see where the articles you posted or the commenters mentioned the “cultural appropriation” angle. Maybe, some of them will say something about that later in the comments section.
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[…] to portray a black woman in this story.” (Too bad he did, though.) He describes the shoots he had hoped to remake, and then claims that he “at no point attempted to portray an African women by painting her […]
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@ Jorbia
If you want to consider 2 individuals (one of which was white) as some. None of those websites had enough commentary from individuals to conclude how Africans as a whole felt. One was like 12 comments some from the same people and the other 7 comments and many from the same.
A few mentioned us making a stand as black people.
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@ jorbia
All I said about the articles is that their reaction is negative. I made it clear that the part about “cultural appropriation” is my opinion:
Regarding the comments, there is a grand total of one African commenter who find the photos positive (he posted twice). It is inevitable, we are not the Borg. There will always be voice of dissent, there are a billion of us out there. However, the majority of the posters are overwhelmingly critical:
It’s only 2 articles tough. I found more online (especially in the francophone blogosphere), but as they are all similar, I didn’t feel the need to link them.
I will continue my search. If I find one article by an African journalist/blogger which happens to be supportive of Sebastian Kim’s photos, I will link it. But I wouldn’t hold my breath if I were you…
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@Sharina–
The writer of the article at the first site was staunchly against Numero, but below are excerpts of the 12 comments. I didn’t see any White faces there and the comments below don’t sound like any of them were made by a White person..
Someone named Lora made a positive comment. 2 people agreed with her, and comments 4 & 5 are definitely positive. That’s a total of 5 out of 12 commenters. Seems that these particular commenters were flattered. I have no idea about how Africa as a whole feels.
1. . . . what’s wrong with them trying to look like beautiful african women?
2. @lora,wow, such a good point. I was going to bash them with insults till i saw your comment, it actually makes sense. So true!!
3. @lora, I get your point Lora you defo are making some sense BUT what I find very offensive here is, it’s one thing if they want to look like us cool….NO PROBLEM. But they are certainly not giving away jobs to black female models in their place.
4. In fact I think this mag shld be commended rather,they see what we don’t see. They see how beautiful our skin are n have tried to look lyk us. What is the “racist” in dis? If they were racists am very sure they wouldn’t have put anything black in their magazine or?
5. . . . There r no boundaries in fashion. As far as am concerned u can take ur creativity to any level. Nothing stops u in fashion. Hence dis mag turned jst an ok white girl into a beautiful African queen. Personally I think it’s beautiful n it makes me proud as an African
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Dahoman X–
When I mentioned “cultural appropriation,” I was referring to how some commenters here at Abagonds put a heavy emphasis on that, whereas. I didn’t see where the Africans in the articles did.
The African women I personally know feel flattered that White women want to look and dress like them or copy them. That’s how they interpreted this. Other than that, they’re more concerned about modeling job opportunities for Black models.
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@ Jorbia
I stand corrected in the amount of indviduals that are positive, but I am confused on where you get 5 commenters. Lora, E-man, and Ama are the commenters on that site that do appear to be positive. Goldengurl is one that feels black models should and could have been used.
” have no idea about how Africa as a whole feels.”—True but I am actually very curious on their feelings. I am an american and while I view things one way it is different from a person who lives African culture on a day to day basis. I am sure their feelings are different from mine or maybe not.
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@Sharina–
I took all of those excerpts from the first site he posted.
You should try to make friends with some Africans and get to know them.
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@ Legion
I updated the post. Thanks.
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@ Jorbia
I actually would love to. I used to have a close friend from Africa, but we have lost touch. Just last year at our Annual Arts in the Heart festival I was introduced to African foods, but i am still very curious on the culture. I missed many of the culture dances and such and frankly I regret it.
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@ Legion
The idea that she is a child makes me feel uneasy. The reason being is because selling kids as sexy entice pedophiles. Telling women that looking like a child is appealing is a bit scary on a whole different front.
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@ Dahoman X
Thanks for the links and for setting the record straight on Jorbia’s interpretation.
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@ Legion
Thank you! I’m surprised no one else brought it up. She’s a kid, when did this crap become O.K? No one in this industry asks themselves “Wait wtf are we doing?”. It’s so diseased.
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@ Dahoman X
The problem I have with opinions expressed like this is they appear to be given in a sort of “non-cultural vacuum” devoid of any of the influences or effects of colonialism and white supremacy.
As a general rule I don’t assume an awareness of these effects (in African, Black, white or Europeans…irrespective of were they come from) but look for positive acknowledgements of them reflected in the person’s view points.
Many, but not all, Africans are seeped in the false ideals of white superiority/Black inferiority through their past countries experiences under colonialism. This is comparable to a large extent to the experience African-Americans (and Black people in the diaspora) endure under the legacy of white supremacy. – The Effects:white superiority/Black inferiority are the same….
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@Kwamla–
“non-cultural vacuum” devoid of any of the influences or effects of colonialism and white supremacy.
I realize this is your opinion and your assumption seems to be that we all come from the same or similar cultural background and cultural experiences. Obviously not true. The “effects” of any experience can be and often are greatly different, even on 2 children raised in the same household. So, your statement generalizes. and projects your views of these “effects” on other Blacks.
So, what really stands out to me in many of the comments made under the “effects” umbrella is there doesn’t seem to be any substantive allowance made for a person as simply a human being. For instance, maybe these African women who are flattered when they see White women copying them feel that way because humans in general are flattered when others copy them. We all copy and influence each other.
From this statement of yours and others you’ve made, I could easily infer that you believe that no part or barely any part of a Black person exists outside of these “effects.” If you think that way, then IMO, that’s chilling.You may be speaking for yourself, but I’m a person, in my own right. What makes me “me” as a human being, exists outside of those effects. That’s how I choose to be viewed. I steer clear of people who want to view me as something that Whites have made.
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Jorbia,
“…what really stands out to me in many of the comments made under the “effects” umbrella is there doesn’t seem to be any substantive allowance made for a person as simply a human being….”
We are ALL human beings. Or so we would like to believe is the case. However, the historical and cultural reality of the last century challenges this very notion that we are all human. Certainly, from the perspective of even recently just two countries America (Jim Crow laws) and South Africa (Apartheid). Such was the ingrained culture at the time.
Its easy to argue or pretend this culture of dehumanising African/Black people was long ago in the past. And many people might argue this….BUT However, I am not one of those people. Those “effects” are still with us today. Of course they are not the same. They have changed, morphed into other “effects”. But essentially they are still there.
This is what I mean by the:
“…“non-cultural vacuum” devoid of any of the influences or effects of colonialism and white supremacy…”
Racism just like sexism is a political, social and cultural construct of our reality which exists for ALL human beings on this planet. Of course how we all respond to these “effects” is not and doesn’t have to be the same. The question is do we accept them or challenge them?
Yes we are all Human beings. But its how we respond to those “effects” which either re-enforces that perspective or undermines it. And this applies regardless of who we may wish to think of ourselves as: Black, White, African, European, Asian… etc..
Ignoring or denying the “effects” of racism or sexism IMO doesn’t re-enforce the perspective we are ALL Human. Challenging it does!
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@Kwamla–
We are ALL human beings. Or so we would like to believe is the case. However, the historical and cultural reality of the last century challenges this very notion that we are all human. Certainly, from the perspective of even recently just two countries America (Jim Crow laws) and South Africa (Apartheid). Such was the ingrained culture at the time.
But it doesn’t matter what “THEY” think. Yes, “they” challenged the notion that I’m human, but what really matters to me is what “I” think or believe about myself. I am a human being and “they” fortunately don’t have the power to change that.
Its easy to argue or pretend this culture of dehumanising African/Black people was long ago in the past. And many people might argue this….BUT However, I am not one of those people. Those “effects” are still with us today. Of course they are not the same. They have changed, morphed into other “effects”. But essentially they are still there.
Not sure if you’re talking to me or to “THEM” with this. I’m not arguing or pretending I’m a human being. I just am. It doesn’t matter how much THEY dehumanize me, I am and will always be as human as I was made to be. THEY do not have the power to take that from me. I can’t control THEM but I can control me, inside. IMO, Blacks need to shift most of their focus to becoming strong-minded and almost single minded about doing what they need to do. This would be to develop themselves from the inside out and build families, and communities. IMO, that’s the foundation for everything. I’m on that track and it doesn’t matter to me what any “THEY” may think of me.
This is what I mean by the:
“…“non-cultural vacuum” devoid of any of the influences or effects of colonialism and white supremacy…”
Racism just like sexism is a political, social and cultural construct of our reality which exists for ALL human beings on this planet. Of course how we all respond to these “effects” is not and doesn’t have to be the same. The question is do we accept them or challenge them?
Guess this is a rhetorical question, but if you were to ask me this personally, I tend to challenge. However, I encounter many more attempts to attack or oppress me as a female person than as a Black person. Your reality is quite different from mine. For me, (sexist) males would be a part of THEM. You and I may have different priorities for that reason. I regard all of THEM the same way. Anyone who tries to deny the “me” of me as a human being is an oppressor.
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@Kwamla
The black face images from the magazine exist in a specific sociohistorical context not in a vacuum. The refined subtle racism of today is dependent on ignoring or denying the relevancy of context. The refusal to consider context is a form of gaslighting. The POC is forced to waste energy educating the white person about the history, psychology and sociology of white domination. All of this added information will be dismissed by the white person. They will attempt to con you into running around in circles to prove conscious racist intent.
___________________________________________________________
“Some types of discriminatory harassment are captured in the work of Dovidio and Gaertner (1998) and other scholars (e.g., McConahay, 1986). They noted that over time racism has changed and become more symbolic, subtle, and hidden within the guise of nonprejudicial or nonracist behavior, thought, and justification. According to these scholars, strong negative feelings toward people of Color operate on the subconscious level of awareness. While they are often not communicated as open hostility, such feelings and beliefs exist and manifest themselves in colorblind beliefs and practices, as well as by expressions of discomfort, disgust, and fear.” (R.T. Carter, 2007)
__________________________________________________________
Here is an example of racism that can be denied by a white supremacist apologist:
Feagin, Vera, and Batur (2001) described an incident that illustrates an instance of quid pro quo racial harassment. White employees found out their Black female coworker Sheryl had a birthday, and learned that she was expecting a child. The White coworkers gave her a party, and the cake was decorated with an image of a pregnant dark-skinned woman with the inscription, “Happy Birthday Sheryl. It must have been the watermelon seeds.” Sheryl said of the experience, “When I saw the inscription, I just kind of stared at it and said ‘Oh, thank you,’ I didn’t feel I could get angry. I had just found out I was pregnant and I needed my job” (p. 156).
_____________________________________________________________
A racism apologist would look at the example above and say that Sheryl should have been grateful that her co-workers liked her enough to have a party and cake to celebrate her birthday and pregnancy. The reference to watermelon seeds and the caricature of a pregnant black woman were all in jest and not offensive. I’m Jorbia would claim not to see the problem with the image on the cake and watermelon reference.
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@The Alchemist–
I’m Jorbia would claim not to see the problem with the image on the cake and watermelon reference.
But why exactly is my name pulled into this?
Don’t be a COWARD! I don’t like sneaks. if you have something to say to me–just say it. Why start talking to Kwamla and then start talking about me. You don’t have the bleep to just say it to me?
This is why comments get deleted.
Abagond, I’m seeing a devious tactic used more here where commenters post comments and stick attacks in the middle of a comment. if you delete my comment, I hope you will delete The Alchemist’s comment too.
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@Abagond,
Please note the devious tactic used by The Alchemist above to cause arguments and disruption.
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@The Alchemist–
I’m Jorbia would claim not to see the problem with the image on the cake and watermelon reference.
Yoooohooooo, The Alchemist. — I’m speaking directly to you,
Let me give you a lesson in manners since you’re behaving like a PETTY COWARD: What you did is called “BACKBITING”
Back-biting: to speak spitefully or slanderously of a person who is not present
YOU don’t know what I would or wouldn’t see. So, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Why are you talking ABOUT me?
According to the rules that are posted here about disagreements, you’re supposed to refute my argument–not attack my person. We’re not even debating anything and then I read where you’re putting words in my mouth and talking about me with spite.
Again, that’s called BACKBITING. Backbiting causes arguments and disruption.
Since this is a debating forum, why are you afraid to say something directly TO me?
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Jorbia,
I’ll explain a little about myself. I am black, female, disabled and I grew up in the Deep South. You many call me a coward or even a petty coward if it pleases you. There are no slurs invented for black people, women and disabled people that have not been thrown in my direction. It requires more courage for me to roll out of bed and go to work then you could ever wrap your mind around. I do not possess James Baldwin’s eloquence and skill with the English language so I won’t waste key strokes attempting to describe the intersections that I live at to you. The grinding everyday stress of racism, sexism and ableism is weathering to the body, mind and soul. Imagine the weather beaten exterior of a house that has been continuously exposed to wind, rain, snow and hail. If you truly cannot grasp why modern black face minstrelsy is emotionally painful to black people then you are lacking in the ability to empathize. The images in the media landscape function like a psychic assault on black people. Like a scab being ripped off a wound over and over again just as it starts to heal.
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I deleted a comment by The Alchemist and by Jorbia.
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@The Alchemist–
I’ll explain a little about myself. I am black, female, disabled and I grew up in the Deep South. You many call me a coward or even a petty coward if it pleases you
I’m also a black female and my parents grew up in the deep south too. You don’t know the roads I’ve traveled that have been tough for me. Despite your condition, it’s no excuse to put words in my mouth and spitefully talk about me to others in front of my face. My deep south parents taught me better than that.
There are no slurs invented for black people, women and disabled people that have not been thrown in my direction.
Well, I’ve been slurred too because I’m a black female. I can’t imagine you’ve been called worst names than me since I’ve been in this country. I’ll let you guess who called me those names, lied on me, started nasty rumors about me, and tried the hardest to cause all kinds of trouble for me. I even had to talk to a lawyer and call the attorney general of the state to try to get them to leave me alone. To them, I am different because I grew up in different circumstances, which is something that seems to cause them pain.
It requires more courage for me to roll out of bed and go to work then you could ever wrap your mind around. I do not possess James Baldwin’s eloquence and skill with the English language so I won’t waste key strokes attempting to describe the intersections that I live at to you.
But you don’t know the losses I’ve had in my life. You don’t know MY pain, but that doesn’t mean I should start backbiting you. But what puzzles me about this is that YOU are the one who started this, but when I responded, you then want to start a pity party and invite me.
If you wanted to backbite me with Kwamla, you could have sent your email address to Abagond and asked him to ask Kwamla to write to you. Then you and he could have had a good time roasting me. But no. You want to put words in my mouth right in my face, like I’m retarded.
That is very disrespectful.
Read the rules. Not only do we need to agree to disagree, but we should able to disagree without being disagreeable.
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@ Jorbia
The Alchemist said:
Not a personal attack because perceiving racism or not is at the heart of the issue. On this thread you have come off as a white apologist who sees what she wants to see. That was particularly true with Dahoman X’s two articles.
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@Abagond,
So you’re saying that we’re allowed to backbite if we don’t agree with another commenter. Whatever happened to refuting the argument and not attacking the person?
This is just wrong. It sends the wrong message on how Black people are to treat each other. You told me that alternative viewpoints were fine. You didn’t tell me that you would allow people to attack me personally and speak spite about me when I disagreed.
Okay–I can see how this will go from now on. You will allow others to attack me because you agree with them. This is wrong.
I’m gone.
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Jorbia and Abagond,
I Rarely get involved in disputes between posters but on this, I must speak out because Jorbia is Right – she represents the alternative viewpoint that does exist and is NEEDED because black people are not the Borg– as it’s been pointed out.
Abagond, what you see as “white Apologist” is actually a viewpoint that many black non-Americans hold…not All — don’t get me wrong because Jorbia is her own person with her own take on things (I don’t agree with everything she says).. .but I truly understand where she is coming from.
You recently wrote a post on how black immigrants and other immigrants take on white Americans points of view….but have you ever stop to consider Why they take it on or that maybe it is their own cultural points of views which might have certain commonalities with what you Americans perceived as a “white mentality”..
Dahoman X hit the nail on the head when he said that we black and brown of the Diaspora have been affected by our European Imperialism/ Colonialism…
we have been affected in similar ways to black Americans and in very different Ways…and it’s these differences that seperate black non-American cultures from black America — how our Eurocentric viewpoints have manifested themselves and help create our cultures.
I know you probably don’t have the time but doing a post (unbiased) on how American vs European colonialism affected black Americans and black non-Americas could maybe create an understanding amongst us posters– so that people could maybe get an understanding of each other..
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@ Jorbia
The Alchemist was trying to make a point. Her example was a good one and it was right on topic. If you expect to be beyond criticism for your views that is not going to fly.
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correction, meant to say:
“you recently made a comment on another post on how black immigrants and other immigrants take on white American points of views
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@ Linda
Good point.
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I too don’t see eye to eye with Jorbia on every issue, but she definitely does represent a point of view that exists and is worth listening to and respecting as legitimate.
In a sense, simply associating a viewpoint as “White” is a form of ad hominem because it does not truly address the core argument, but instead labels it as “non-Black.” The implication is that the holder of such an opinion is “self-hating.” A direct refutation of the points of the argument would be more convincing. But even then, if the person doesn’t see it, then it’s a disagreement, and they happen all the time.
I think Black Americans (myself included) have to be wary of racial “thought policing.” There are a diversity of ideas out there in the diaspora, and it’s worth hearing from more of them, without resorting to the old methods of calling other peoples thoughts “dangerous,” self-hating,” or “White.”
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For what it’s worth, I can understand Jorbia’s indignation in this circumstance.
I would have reacted the same.
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Context is everything:
“The black face images from the magazine exist in a specific sociohistorical context not in a vacuum. The refined subtle racism of today is dependent on ignoring or denying the relevancy of context. The refusal to consider context is a form of gaslighting. The POC is forced to waste energy educating the white person about the history, psychology and sociology of white domination.”
___________________________________________________________
sociohistorical context = the BLACK AMERICAN experience with black face minstrelsy.
____________________________________________________________
I now understand that in post-racial america black americans are cool with black face because everything happens in a vacuum. Got it.
I now understand that expecting someone to understand the offense post post racial black americans have with modern black face minstrelsy is thought policing. I will practice viewing things in a vacuum and out of context from now on. Got it.
My bad. I’m still getting used to post racialism.
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Alchemist, I thought your comments to Kwamla were pretty brilliant…you summed up microagression and racism in America in an interesting way…
so don’t cheapen your words talking about post-racial America….
because there is no post-racial America…nothing has changed except, as you pointed out, the new, refined subtle face of racism in American society and to what degree black/brown people are willing accept it to “get along with white people to move along” or play into to it because they don’t recognize it for what it is.
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The Alchemist called Jorbia a white supremacist apologist. No one likes to be called that, of course. But to not allow people to call out white supremacism on a thread like this would make a mockery of it. That would be a far, far worse thought policing. So would limiting comments only to those which do not upset people. The Alchemist may be wrong in her assessment but she was not out of line in the context of the thread.
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I think Black Americans (myself included) have to be wary of racial “thought policing.” There are a diversity of ideas out there in the diaspora, and it’s worth hearing from more of them, without resorting to the old methods of calling other peoples thoughts “dangerous,” self-hating,” or “White.”
DDC: Really? So if people’s thoughts are indeed “dangerous”, self-hating” or “white” what do u suggest we call them? lol.
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@Kwamla, sorry I hadn’t seen your post to me.
I guess if I was asking about it it was because I wanted to apply. There are other posters who are much worse then me on this…
I hope there is nothing wrong with posing questions. Assumptions ? No, ideas, propositions, arguments for debate.
hmm, hmm, I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this.
I am planning to read Darwin’s work.
Are you referring ot Darwin’s theory or to Social Darwinism ? Not the same thing at all.
That theory has multiple branches, this is something I also want to read about.
It so happens that I have been extensively reading and taking classes in the past year. Before that, I relied on my own observations and realizations, and m readings tend to confirm them. I am learning a lot.
I just read a book on the Creation of the concept of Race in France, called ‘La Matrice de la Race”, where the author, a French philosopher specialized in the topic explains how the notion of Nation was built on the “body” of the “white woman” and the colonial racial laws.
The fact that I do not view things the same way as you do, Kwamla, does not mean “I don’t understand”. I just don’t agree.
I am also planning to read more about the Melanin Theory, but what I have read so far doesn’t convince me, as it is at the same time a denial of the scientific method and an acknowledgment of it as a frame to present the theory. Quite confusing.
Thank you for your reply but I am a little disappointed because I still don’t know much about your take. Your points above are very general “too”, I would say.
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Okay–I can see how this will go from now on. You will allow others to attack me because you agree with them. This is wrong.
DDC:Ummm ur an adult and people do noyt exist to tell u what u want to hear or handle u with kid gloves.Everytime I visit this site I am attacked by people here and? That is the price we pay for having an opinion.
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Man….what a discussion!:D 😀 😀
For what it’s worth (not much, I’m sure) …I can’t say that I may not have side-eyed The Alchemist’s mention of Jorbia if I “was” Jorbia.
But doing a simple search of Jorbia’s comments would lay a pretty sufficient body of evidence, if you will, to support The Alchemist’s assessment.
She just said what I was thinking anyway, right or wrong.
And I agree with Abagond. I didn’t think that the mention was a personal attack on Jorbia at all. She really has had no problem lacing inflammatory and sometimes condescending rhetoric when responding to conflicting ideas and she often takes things “personally” when often times the intention was nought.
Nobody here (as of late) was begging for her posts to be removed or policed.
I’m just saying. It’s grown folks conversation.
SK
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@DDC @The Alchemist
I love your commentary and have learned from many of the historical posts (DDC) you have done on the last few topics. I just wanted to say so.
SK
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Call them wrong.
And then point out why you think they’re wrong.
Saying that what someone is expressing is “White” doest mean anything. That’s nonsense speak. Saying that someone’s opinions are “dangerous” is drawing people’s conclusions for them, and has a long history of use for merely silencing contrary opinions. Trying to diagnose another person’s “self hatred” is a waste of time. You can’t read their inner motivations or state of mind and pointing out one’s own amateur diagnosis of their supposed psychology is laughable at best.
All of the BS can be avoided by concentrating on the actual issues they bring up and letting the elaborate guesswork about the person themselves be.
We’ve all done it at one point or another (Me included) but it’s not productive.
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Identifying someone as a “White Supremacist Apologist” doesn’t refute their actual points. It only attempts to categorize and associate what was said with something known to be unpopular in this particular forum.
It’s as if someone made a statement on the subject of “Revolution” and someone else identifies their statements as being inspired by the Church of Satan. The imposed negative association is not an argument.
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Why don’t we stay on topic and stop making personal attacks at each other. It isn’t right at all! Posting personal attacks at someone for disagreeing with someone is rather childish and wrong.
@King
I agree with you but I agree with Jorbia on a lot of points though. No, I am almost eighteen and I am too young to know what a ”White supremacist apologist is but you are right.
We all agree that using some random White girl off the street and use her to be painted in brown paint was wrong and demoralizing to Black women everywhere. It is like that Black women aren’t good enough to even be put on the magazine!
Heck, this White chick is probably around my age and I am in my late teens yet she is being used to further the agenda of White supremacists in power to promote Black inferiority and White supremacy.
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@ Adeen
Hey there, li’l Miss.
A “White Supremacist Apologist” is one who advocates for White Supremacy.
In this case the root “Apology” is referring to it’s first definition—a formal justification or defense rather than an admission of error.
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@ King
I agree we all do it, but it mostly comes around when the individuals have exhausted all debating tactics. We disagree but we want to be the winner and we want to be right in our ideas and thoughts. Tire out the opposer. In cases of commenting online I will say you open yourself up to harsh critiscim. In cases of church and eco (who I feel get a lot of it) they make comment knowing that they will likely get attacked and they are prepared for it because they keep coming back.
For me I think some people in this room believe they are exempt from criticism. None of us are.
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@King’
I see. I don’t ever strive to apologize for the racist White supremacist system ever or even date a White boy my age! I am so so sick of this whole White supremacist system where Whites are on top and Blacks are on the bottom.
This whole incident with the White girl being painted in brown paint reinforces the idea that the White race is supreme when in reality PEOPLE OF ALL RACES are equal in the eyes of God!
I know I sound bitter but I am sick of White supremacy and White racism against Blacks. I am so sick of them stereotyping us and thinking that they we are an monolith group.
Not all Blacks are the same. We are all our own unique individuals yet White America sees us as N words and inferior beings.
Any person of color, particularly a Black woman, should be outraged by this incident!
And IF anyone person of color, especially a Black woman, doesn’t see anything wrong with a White chick painted in brown to portray an African queen for a magazine, must be a ”White Supremacist Apologist”, sellout or an Uncle Tom.
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@ Sharina
Alas, for human nature.
@ Adeen
“To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
-A time to kill, and a time to heal;
– A time to break down, and a time to build up
– A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
– A time to mourn, and a time to dance.”
Ecclesiastes
There is also a time to be remember, and a time to forget,
A time seek and a time of rest
A time to be angry and a time of peace.
I can’t think of anyone who was more bloodthirsty in his posts, then I was, when I wanted to be. Not just here, but in other places on the web. I was known by different names in many different places. I kept poor Abagond quite busy here deleting all of my ad hominem attacks. I used to roam the internet hunting for racists so that I could intellectually rip their guts out.
But that was a process—a way for me to try and exorcise my racial demons. It was good for me for a while to face the injustice and to fight it, in my own way. But as time went on, I began to realize how big the internet was, and how big the real world was and how short life is. So I could either live my life as Don Quixote to the racist windmills or I could realize that racism is not a problem that I could solve in my lifetime and that I couldn’t interpret my life based on it’s existence.
Kwamla is right that you have to continue to resist racism.
Jorbia is also right, that you can’t let other people’s hatred define or limit you.
So feel what you need to feel Adeen, and do what you need to do, in season. But also know that anti-racism makes a poor religion, and an even worse obsession. Don’t let it take over your life. You will see that as you get older and have more control of your life that your ultimate happiness rests squarely on your own shoulders. Once you are aware and have processed your reactions to racism, move on, live your life and be happy. If you dwell too much old and bitter memories, in the end, by beholding, you will become changed.
But I do not think this is your fate.
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I am
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@Sharina
“For me I think some people in this room believe they are exempt from criticism. None of us are.”
This isn’t really about being able to deal with criticism. It’s about being able to recognize what is a valid criticism and what is a manipulation, a debating tactic that has little to do with proving that a person is right or wrong.
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I personal think it is sad to see you go Jorbia. You make many points I like reading through. I don’t always agree but it is nice to juxapose it to what I am thinking. Still if the on the sly comment is too much they only made one of you and you never need to go where you collect damage. However, I do think that you are stronger than one thread topic and being cornered. Personally through all the crap I went through Elton John said it best when he sang “I’m still standing” few people have ever permently marked me and I can almost count them on one hand. None in my adult life because I already know who I am and what I stand for.
It is another reason when I see blackface or have to hear it I just sit back and think, wow idiots and I bet they have some kind of camera to prove it to the rest of society. However, I am all for artist making fools of themselves or idiots taking pictures at hangings because without the evidence people would be saying see we never did crap like that, or you are making it sound more harsh than it really was or is.
Argh me English is so bad need a better transition than However.
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Sharina has it right. If Churchs had made the same sort of comments downplaying blackface he would have been SLAMMED. And openly mocked. Mercilessly. And no one would bat an eye. Jorbia has been treated with kid gloves by comparison.
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The Alchemist’s comments have been insightful. They have helped me to understand Jorbia, among other things. What The Alchemist is doing is not name calling, saying “I do not like you” in so many words. She was deconstructing how Jorbia appears to think. That counts as criticism, not a personal attack. Jorbia should stand her ground. Leaving only makes it seem like The Alchemist was all too right.
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@ Legion
The appearance of blackface in a Paris fashion magazine is a bit more serious than an avatar on a blog. If the fashion industry was racially integrated, if it presented women in all their beauty and diversity as opposed to pushing a narrow, racist standard of beauty that leads to internalized racism the world over, THEN maybe it would not be worth posting on – because then it would just seem merely odd.
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@ eco
But don’t you see. Often times they are valid criticism, but people have convinced themselves they are so right that they don’t even see it. I think those that just sit back and watch the arguments see it better than anyone. This is not to say jorbia was not attacked. I think there were a few that really hammered in personal (past vendetta) and had no point. Then again I could have been ignoring their point altogether.
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@ Eco
And another thing….who has not used manipulation? This is just another thing where people have convinced themselves they are so right that they Don’t realize they do it. For example changing the context of a subject or debate when they have been refuted on other points. I think it is better to refer to it as personal attacks of the character because that is what it is.
@King of Trouble
I agree 100%. I don’t let people get under my skin. Nothing a person says can or will ever stop me from doing what I like. I feel like that gives them some power over me. In the case of Jorbia it was more than the attacks but the fact that she felt Abagond was allowing it.
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@Legion
My outrage was at the staff of the incident to be honest. I didn’t mean to offend anyone at all.
@King
Thanks for your insight. I am not going to make anti racism my religion since I already have religious convictions of my own but I just want to be aware of racism when I see it, that is all.
I know there is a time for every season. I plan on being an author one day writing fictional novels NOT about racism:)
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@Sharina
I see your point on Jorbia. Honestly as I read the posts, I knew Jorbia was a sensitive person. I know I am as well. She probably didn’t take criticism very well and she shouldn’t have let Alchemist get under her skin like that. Criticism is apart of life.
Honestly I agreed with Jorbia on many issues.
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Wow!
Well this has been a quite a “good ‘ole cut and thrust debate” hasn’t it?
And just when I thought myself and Jorbia were beginning to gain some real appreciation of our respective viewpoints. Clearly we don’t agree. But at least we were beginning to become clearer about those areas we don’t and possibly do agree on.
Then “The Alchemist” dropped in her own contribution…. No doubt she is following her own personal legend…
My own sensing is the reason that her comment was addressed to me was a way of showing re-enforcement and support of my own earlier statement:
“…The problem I have with opinions expressed like this is they appear to be given in a sort of “non-cultural vacuum” devoid of any of the influences or effects of colonialism and white supremacy…”
But… also to NOT have to engage Jorbia directly because of the deeply held, strong, passionate and personal feelings accumulated in her past experiences dealing with people speaking form such viewpoints. So this is why Jorbia was indirectly mentioned at the end. But was this a personal attack on Jorbia?
Later comments may have been. But we will never know as they were deleted.
But then Jorbia too speaks from her own deeply held and passionate feelings of accumulated past experience extolling the benefits of her alternative view point. So she really should not be that surprised to see this coming form upholders of the very view point she seeks to play down or marginalise.
I think it is a reasonable question to pose: If you hold a radically different viewpoint on an issue which people suffer abuse, and continue to suffer abuse, from. Should you take the comments of those people who disagree with you personal?
We are all supposedly adults here debating on a forum topics that in the mainstream media, would be termed “highly emotive”. And because of this are rarely allowed to be publicly aired. So it should be no surprise that commentators should feel their emotions rising.
So what if they do? Express them!!! And allow others to express theirs too!!!
But CHOOSE! And we can all choose to make that choice, whether you wish to take someone else’s disagreement with your opinion/viewpoint PERSONAL or NOT!
Its so easy to misconstrue what some one has said in written exchanges like these as a personal attack that you lose sight of what the real debate was about in the first place. I believe Abagond’s already done a post on the different levels and styles of disagreement. It would certainly be worth a read for anyone who is prone towards feeling personally attacked. And I do mean ANYONE not just Jorbia!
It can help you to place it in another more dis-arming context.
(King please take note!)
Now back to the post…Can someone remind me what it was again?
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@ Abagond
“The Alchemist’s comments have been insightful. They have helped me to understand Jorbia, among other things. What The Alchemist is doing is not name calling, saying “I do not like you” in so many words. She was deconstructing how Jorbia appears to think. That counts as criticism, not a personal attack.”
It counts as criticism? Criticism of what exactly? How is it better, stronger than saying ‘I don’t like your way of thinking’?
@Sharina
“But don’t you see. Often times they are valid criticism, but people have convinced themselves they are so right that they don’t even see it.”
Valid criticism is about finding actual flaws in a persons statements. Lies, illogical claims, contradictions, that kind of stuff. What we are talking about here is an elaborate ad hominem that establishes nothing about the validity of the statements and focuses on analyzing the person making the statement in order to make the statements look weaker.
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@ eco
“…Valid criticism is about finding actual flaws in a persons statements. Lies, illogical claims, contradictions, that kind of stuff…
Fair enough eco…But what do you do when the person stubbornly chooses not to accept any of this..?
Remind you of anyone?
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@Kwamla
It does remind me of someone. You. The guy who can’t notice his reasoning relies on assumptions he has never established as true.
@All
we are referencing a discussion we had in a different thread.
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Well, all of this is “threading the needle” as they say—precise work at best, and an unenviable task to moderate and referee. I too wish that Jorbia had stood her ground on this one and watched to see how the opinions of others evolved on the issue, and played out.
But I also see Jorbia’s comments as categorically different than Church’s or Randy’s. To me the difference is that Jorbia’s viewpoints come from within the diaspora. So Jorbia is speaking as a Black person living in America who is herself subject to all that this entails. Therefore even her criticisms fall, at least in part, back upon herself as a member of the larger Black Community within the U.S. She may be from a different branch, but is of the same tree. And to me, there is just a difference between a Black person who struggles under the same mantle of circumstance as all of us, and a non-Black person who is trying to point out our problems without having lived our experience.
So, as I said when Jorbia first showed up, there are a lot of voices out there in the diaspora—Jamaicans, Ethiopians, Belizeans, Haitians, Nigerians, that see the world and many of its issues quite differently than we do here in America. And my hope is that we can begin to stop seeing the holding of certain opinions as being “White” and begin to understand them as “Diverse.” The temptation is to place Black American thinking and ideas on a pedestal, and to subtly minimize the other voices of the diaspora as somehow less informed or aware and worthy of ridicule. But if these ideas are legitimately coming from other Black people with different perspectives, I don’t think we can long afford to do that.
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@ eco
But of course you would say that wouldn’t you!!!
Good job I don’t take such woefully inaccurate misrepresentations personal!!!
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I’d say that you can either try to force them to agree with you viewpoint or you can call it a disagreement and leave it at that. If the person cannot defend their viewpoints against a logical argument, then even if they do not formally concede, the point will be made.
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@ King
I would never endorse forcing someone to agree with your view point. It shows the the strength of your own to be obviously weaker than you would want to believe or accept. Its also the primary causes of physical confrontations and wars.
Yes… you can agree to differ. But sometimes it can be fun to employ some of those other tactics from “…the-seven-levels-of-disagreement…”
Of course in order to do this you have to learn not to take your own or the other person’s disagreement with you too seriously (personally). Otherwise you can fall prey to those same tactics being used against you!
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@deepdkchocolate
seems like you wish to continue debating with the “boring” one… but at the same time you don’t. I asked a question that is relevant because it is the core of the problem, the intersection of biology and theory. A very precise point that makes the theory or not…
And below is the answer I got. I *really* (really) thought you could tell me what the melanin theory says about this because you seems to know what the theory says. But here is the answer I get (even though I already said I’m planning to read more on this…). This would have made thing clearer faster and we could have moved on to sth else.
You answered:
As for the regions I was referring too, they are the many regions of Africa where there are albino people. Many regions. In Mali, in Cameroon, in eastern Africa, that’s the one I know about, there are others.
As for the “convo” that was deleted, DDC, it started with your post containing the reference to the US census as a “proof” that “races” exist… Not mine. I copied the thread, I know.
Peace and debate.
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‘that makes the theory VALID or not” I meant ^
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@Kwamla,
on what we are discussing, just to make my thoughts on it clear: my main concern is that we (those who reflect on race and racism) must be very careful not to remove the political responsibility from the Europeans who created these concepts and applied the ideas in a legal context.
That’s what I fund my reflexion on. No excuse for my ancestors. To me it was politically aimed and so far I haven’t come across anything that could excuse them… except the bits and parts of the melanin theory I have read or heard from listening to Dr Cress-Welding.
Can you excuse the topic we are discussing here on the basic of “white people’s pineal gland production” ? He… no !
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@ Kwamla
And you may allow me, from time to time, a “bloodthirsty” post or two, upon an unsuspecting racist troll, just for old times sake?
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So the question is how do we as group fight against microaggressions such as this one? Just ignore it, call it flattery, or demand the magazine be fined? taken off the market? Or do I just make it fodder and keep it moving? Not sure. The apology was disingenuous.
@Jorbia- it’s good to get a different take on a topic even if its not the popular one- you add a spice here on Abagond. Hope you won’t truly disappear. 😉
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@Sharina & Abagond–
Sharina, you said:
In the case of Jorbia it was more than the attacks but the fact that she felt Abagond was allowing it.
Sharina, this particular statement of yours puts the finger on precisely what made me leave the forum yesterday.Yes, Abagond, not only allowed it; he co-signed it and justified it.
Abagond, has ALL of the power on this forum. He is the owner and moderator of this forum and allowed a commenter to put words in my mouth and use my name in a spiteful way to lie about me because he is staunchly opposed to my alternative views. He, not only allowed the backbiting, he allowed The Alchemist to lie on me, based on her ASSumptions.
In actuality, I agreed with The Alchemist in the case of the ‘watermelon seed’ cake incident. That was racist, but without The Alchemist asking ME what my opinion was about that, she went ahead and put words in my mouth and shockingly, Abagond cosigned this because obviously Abagond has a problem with my alternative views.
Abagond was dishonest last week when he told me my alternative views were welcome here. He has shown in this situation that my views are NOT welcome. I can defend myself against any and all opposition here, but I know now that Abagond is going to delete certain of my comments whereas he will allow certain comments of others who have attacked me, to remain.
When someone, with spiteful intent, calls MY NAME and then puts words in my mouth claiming to know my views about a situation, actually lying on me, then yes, I consider that a personal attack. If I were to do that to you, I want to see how any of you would respond. If The Alchemist had used a term like: some people claim, I wouldn’t have said anything because that’s not personal, but when you call a person’s name and then proceed to make assumptions that are lies, then that IS personal.
But Abagond approves of this. Why? Because he agrees with the commenter. He will continue to allow this if I remain here because my arguments are very difficult to refute.They stand on their own merits. So, what he allowed to happen is he tacitly allows a hit-squad or a hitter to come at me.He then deletes certain ones of my comments when I defend myself. Then, yesterday, he proceeded to defend and justify the hit. I’ve noticed how he’s been allowing certain ones of his favorites to do this.
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Again: Abagond is ALL-powerful on this board. He is the chief, the head. He behaved exactly the way the White supremacist system does. They both talk one way, but then walk another way. They have their favorites or those who they agree with. They both set up rules but allow certain people to break the rules and will find ways to justify and excuse what those rulebreakers did. They both try to silence dissent. This is exactly what he allowed with The Alchemist.
Then Abagond tried to justify his bias, his favoritism with:
1. She was deconstructing how Jorbia appears to think.
Abagond, you covered yourself with the word: appears.
2. The Alchemist called Jorbia a white supremacist apologist.
-Actually, I didn’t see where she called me this, but obviously this is what Abagond thinks.
3. The Alchemist’s comments have been insightful. They have helped me to understand Jorbia,
-Abagond, a correction: you still don’t understand me. You simply agree with The Alchemist’s assumptions about me. Big difference.
But you then needed to go further to try to discredit me by associating me with Churchs. Guilt by association. This is a very dirty trick since you know that many on the board view Churchs as a White racist.
This was your clincher, but you needed it, because YOU know that what you did was just WRONG.
@Abagond–I was straightforward with you. I asked you whether my alternative views were allowed and you said yes. If you had said “no”, I wouldn’t have commented anymore. I have no problem with my views getting criticized, but The Alchemist didn’t know what my views were. She just assumed, and lied, and you co-signed her. Assumptions are not facts.
The other day, The Alchemist made some comments that I didn’t agree with, but when I responded, I didn’t use her name or make assumptions about her. I simply responded because I didn’t know commenters were allowed to use names, lie on others, and backbite.
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I need to find time to read “the debate” above. I hope Abagond didn’t delete too much so it’s still understandable to an outsider…
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Honestly, Jorbia, I maybe young but I am sorry you felt Alchemist was belitting you for having a different world view. I really like your posts and ideas on that you posted.
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@ King
“…And you may allow me, from time to time, a “bloodthirsty” post or two, upon an unsuspecting racist troll, just for old times sake?…
In deed…Its what makes reading these postings so much fun. Otherwise why on Earth would any of us spend so much time doing it?
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@ Cornlia
All I deleted was a comment by The Alchemist to Jorbia, which was just plain mean, and Jorbia’s answer to it.
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@ Jorbia
I actually believe when you de-personalise it…
(stop looking at The Alchemist, Abagond or anyone else as out to personally attack YOU..)
…though challenging this might be…
You make some very valid and fair criticisms concerning the apparent editorial and procedurally behaviour on this blog. But then again, after all. As you point out it is Abagond’s blog. Not saying that justifies any actions he may decide to take. But it certainly creates one less reason to not allow your self to be drawn into any unnecessary personal debates or conflicts.
Just offering my own perspective on this…
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@ Cornilia
“…on what we are discussing, just to make my thoughts on it clear: my main concern is that we (those who reflect on race and racism) must be very careful not to remove the political responsibility from the Europeans who created these concepts and applied the ideas in a legal context….”
I’ve dealt IMO with many of the political responses and implications of racism here before:
You can see if you agree or disagree with this…
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I am going to be fair in saying I didn’t read what The Alchemist said to her, so I can not make some conclusion on how it was, but the situation with Franklin was a bunch of personal attacks to me. Maybe it is just me but that was a lot of hitting below the belt.
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@ Adeen
I don’t agree with her on certain things, but in this situation I do see that some individuals have just plainly attacked her. As far as The Alchemist’s comments I need to go back and read it because I did not and I am not sure what it is that has caused such an uproar.
As a human being you should never let a person get under your skin. People try to exploit what they think is your weakness.
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No, I think that what Abagond was trying to do there was to reason that if a White poster (Church’s being the most recent) had said the exact same thing as Jorbia was saying, that Church’s would have received the same exact same treatment as Jorbia did and nobody would have seen it as an unacceptable personal attack. That’s probably the primary reason why Church’s name was invoked. I agree that one of the effects is guilt by association, whether intended or not.
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@ Eco
Are you only refering to the situation with Jorbia or are you talking about these situations as a whole? I am refering more to these situations as a whole and not just Jorbia’s because this has happened more than one and to different people.
We do it so much on this blog…including you I might add…and it is considered valid. The problem I see is how to seperate the elaborate ad hominem from valid criticism. I challenge anyone in this room to sit back and see what I am talking about and see how quick the lines get blurred between the two. Even in the situation with Cornila, who was also attacked using the elaborate ad hominem, it was overlooked as valid criticism. No one said a word. I can think of several situaions on this blog where the same things have happened.
In most cases it starts out as valid criticism. It becomes the ad hominem when there is no clear winner.
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@Legion–
🙂 Thanks! The reason I refer to my views as “alternative” is because of the shock waves they seem to send here. It’s as if some here have never heard these views before. I’m accustomed to expressing my views, and no one holds what I say against me. I can see that is not going to be my experience here.
@Adeen–Thanks. You’re adorable. You are a young woman in the process of blossoming. Don’t weigh yourself down with other peoples’ opinions. They’re just opinions. Just keep making yourself the best you can be and some lucky man will come into your life. Most of all, enjoy your life.
@Kwamla–
I will respect that this is Abagond’s site, by leaving. Thanks for our exchanges.
But before I do, I will say some things about African culture that I love.
These are generalizations about African culture, based on what I’ve experienced and observed in 2 decades of living African culture. I still live this way with them, and it’s the reason why I will raise my children in an African cultural way.
Africans don’t tend to throw their brothers and sisters away or allow anyone to chop at them simply because of a disagreement. Why? Because that’s not what brothers and sisters do to each other. That’s not what family is about. Africans, I’ve associated with, know they need each other and they know their children will need each others’ children, so their inclination is to try to resolve arguments and salvage relationships. They don’t tend to take sides when they know it will disrupt the family because the family is of paramount importance. It’s everything. Winning an argument is not important; the family is most important. This is why I talk so much about the need for Black Americans to build solid families.
I’ve noticed that so many Black Americans love to adopt African names, and call each other family or brother and sister UNTIL you say something they don’t like or understand. At that point, you become Public Enemy #1.
No thanks! I can live without people like that. This is why many Africans consider Black Americans to be Europeans. Many Black Americans exhibit some of the worst behaviors of Whites/Europeans. I’ve heard some Black Americans complain about how Africans don’t want to associate with them when they come to the U.S. They consider that to be self-hating. Well, this is because Africans have studied the ways of Black Americans and they tell each other what they’ve learned. They see how so many Blacks treat their family members. They see how Black Americans don’t embrace African culture because most Black Americans don’t make an effort to learn an African language or African culture. They see how Black fathers abandon their children. Yeah, I said it because the African men and women who I know tend to consider that behavior an abomination of the 1st degree, no matter why it happens.
Many Africans feel that if they’re going to associate with Europeans in this country, they may as well associate with Whites because Whites can and frequently will do more to help them even when the Whites may be racist. Some Black Americans call Africans all kinds of denigrating names and say insulting things to and about Africans and sometimes to their face or often within earshot. This is quite common. This does not make Africans fond of Black Americans.
I know that some of you will try to excuse this by blaming this on White supremacy. That won’t work. People try to stay away from people who treat them in this way. There is no excuse for this.
There is conflict between some African groups. African culture has it’s negatives, but I could tell you so much about African culture that I love. For instance, I can argue all day and all night with Africans and we can exchange sharply, biting opposite views, but at the end, we’re still laughing with each other and sit down to eat with each other like nothing has happened. I have never had any African react toward me the way some of you Black Americans have behaved here. Never.
Every African I know would consider some of the ideas I’ve contributed here to be of value and they would appreciate it. No African I’ve ever associated with would try to discredit me for anything I’ve said here. I know that because I’ve said all of this and then some, including my critical views of some aspects of African culture.
One last thing is this whole matter of me speaking in what some here have called a condescending tone. In order for me to speak down to you, you must first believe I am “UP.” I didn’t cause that.
Some here definitely don’t understand me. I would like to just leave it at that.
Peace.
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I think that in general, ad hominem rules are bent a little based on the situation. For example, if a troll or fire starter comes in and starts throwing racist hand grenades, there is usually some latitude in dealing with him. he’s here to cause trouble, not to reason, and often outright ridicule is the best defense [Hernieth, can I get a witness?] To try and logically reason with such a person only gives credibility to a fool and prolongs his welcome.
But also, technical ad hominem a will creep into just about any debate. To hunt each of these down would be to change a big part of how debates unfold organically in the real world. I think the main reason that ad hominems are flagged is when they are being used INSTEAD OF a logical argument or to u duly enhance a weak one.
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@ King
That is very true.
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@ Legion
King has it right. Everyone knows Jorbia and Churchs have very different opinions. It was not guilt by association I was aiming for. It was to point out that she wants a double standard applied, she wants special treatment, she wants her opinions to be protected by me from attack. If I protected Churchs that way it would be utterly ghastly.
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@ Jorbia
Happy trails and happy wedding!
I agree that if you were to continue posting, you would likely continue to face stiff opposition to your views, and some of it, unfair. But it depends on how big a dog you think you have in this fight. You continued to post for some time, even though you were taking a lot of flack for it. It’s obvious to me that you have a desire to effect racial thinking in the U.S., to some degree, or you wouldn’t have fought so hard in the first place.
Abagond has built for himself one of the most successful anti-racial blogs in the world. Very few other racial websites get as many hits as he does world here from a worldwide audience. So expressing your views on here is like having a little column in a worldwide newspaper. If you want equal time for your point of view, and want it to be heard by a larger audience, then you must “endure the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,” at least for a time.
But I totally understand a person not wanting to go through all of that.
Again, good luck and peace.
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@ Jorbia
People put words in my mouth ALL THE TIME. They misrepresent my opinions. They tell ME what I FEEL. What MY MOTIVES are. As if they can read my mind and feel what is in my heart. It is highly insulting, I agree. Completely. But it comes with the territory. If you cannot roll with it, then, hey.
Your opinions are welcomed here. That does not mean I always find them enjoyable to read. You have said plenty of things that I disagree with but I have always let you have your say. I only delete your comments when you go off topic or get caught up in a name-calling match.
Welcoming your opinions does NOT mean that I will protect you from attack for said opinions. If your views have merit, if you stand by them, then you got to be willing to stand up for them and do battle.
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@ Jorbia
In the watermelon comment The Alchemist said:
And then gave her example and said you would not see the racism in it – implying that you are a white supremacist apologist.
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@Abagond–
‘Methinks thou dost protest too much.’ You are still being dishonest. You disagree with my views, so you’re still trying to mischaracterize me to cover yourself because you know what you did was WRONG.
This has nothing to do with me being sensitive or standing up and battling for my arguments. My arguments stand on their own merits and I have the stamina to argue FOREVER, if I wanted to do that. This is about you allowing personal attacks against me, but when I respond, you delete my comments or portions of them and say what I responded is “too personal.”
The Alchemist didn’t know what she was talking about when she talked about what Jorbia would claim . . . .. That was a lie. If I had said I like to see young teen girls as models and The Alchemist had called me a pedophile, you most likely would have agreed with that too because you dislike my views in general. That’s why you quickly co-signed her lie about me.
Why not just admit you were wrong and apologize?
On a blog on which my views represent the minority view, you, as a moderator, ARE supposed to at least make sure that the minority views are treated fairly and with impartiality. This is similar to the position of Black Americans as a minority group in the U.S. What if the American government were tell Black Americans to stand up and fight against White Americans and the rest of Americans, without any support from Washington?
I had apparently incorrectly assumed that you as the moderator would be impartial. But that’s not the role you’ve chosen to play, so you don’t need to keep trying to cover up what you did. I get it.
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@ Jorbia
I would not ask for an apology because Abagond may not see what he did as wrong.
I personally wish you the best. We agree and disagree on things, but I am glad we don’t hold grudges. 🙂
Oh and i forgot to thank you for standing up for interracial couples where someone had the idea that you can’t marry non-blacks and support the black community and stand up for black people.
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@ Sharina
“The problem I see is how to seperate the elaborate ad hominem from valid criticism.”
I can agree that avoiding using ad hominems can be very difficult, but IMO distinguishing them from valid, ‘objective’ criticism is not particularly hard most of the time. The elaborate ones are slightly more tricky, but it’s usually still pretty easy to notice when criticism is subjective (based on a personal opinion) or based on some fallacy (like an ad hominem, genetic fallacy, guilt by association, appeal to majority, appeal to emotions, etc.).
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@Sharina
You can be married to a non Black and support the Black community and stand up for the Black people.
Marrying out doesn’t make you a sellout. Some people happen to find their soul mates and lovers outside of their race.
NOT supporting the Black community and NOT standing up for your own Black people makes someone a sellout.
I know I might catch hell for this because many people on here will disagree with me on this one.
Nothing is wrong with interracial relationships but I hate it when people date and marry outside of their race for the wrong reasons.
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@ Adeen
Actually, I think most of the people here are OK with I/R so long as it’s for the right reasons. Not everybody, but I think most.
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I am SO tempted to disassemble and shred Jorbia’s latest long winded post about her overly idealistic and laughably romanticized/naive depiction about Africans, and their ways. Even though it would cement how she has the inability to argue in good faith and is a unapologetic liar, it would derail this thread even further.
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@ Adeen
I agree with that, but some people in life truly feel that you are less sensitive to the plight of blacks if you do. For a long time I was hesitant in telling people the race of my husband because I thought people would see me as a sell out (which I was always considered growing up anyway). I don’t really fit into what people consider normal American behavior. My Asians friends actually consider me asian. One of them. Even my black friends don’t consider me black. LOL.
People might think I am wrong in my response to this new instance of black face, but frankly I am just not as outraged as some are. I don’t think Kim is as artistic and edgy as he thinks because I really could have done wonders using a black female natural hair…I mean my mind was racing with ideas for this concept with a black female. Sigh* The only thing this did was made me seek out and put forth more support of black beauty industries.
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@ Adeen and everyone else who would “present” things the same way as Adeen said.
Adeen this is just a remark from a French person, just fyi if you didn’t realize that other people do not “imagine” things that way. Not a reproach or anything of the sort, but I think it is important in a discussion around racism, and maybe it can explain some of the thoughts I express here and there, and that some people reproach me with.
When you say (and this is of course representative of an American way of talking that stems from the belief in race, not specifically yours)
“Marrying out”
“outside of their race”
“interracial relationships”
I just can’t get use to it. I don’t understand how people can actually picture people in frames or boxes labelled “so-so race” and imagining them picking someone out of another box. I oscillate between laughing and crying on this “image”. Because this is how it can be represented in our imagination.
Marry OUT
OUtside their race
INTER-racial
It’s just beyond me (and my husband’s imagination too, even though we are supposed to be “different races”, but none of us believes that, it helps). Totally “OUT” of my personal culture. I really have difficulty understanding that a society managed to make people think like that.
That said, your post was cool… 😉
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“I am SO tempted to disassemble and shred Jorbia’s latest long winded post about her overly idealistic and laughably romanticized/naive depiction about Africans, and their ways. Even though it would cement how she has the inability to argue in good faith and is a unapologetic liar, it would derail this thread even further.”
**************
Franklin,
I, for one, have always admired your ability to see past the smoke and mirrors BS and uncover that which ought to be revealed.
Please do what YOU what you excel at. There’s no need to self-check! LOL
Tell the damned truth!!! IMO it would be doing THIS THREAD a service. Some things just need to be said, and you’re excellent at parsing through the gobbledegook (BS) and getting at the core.
Just consider it as a *public service.*
Thanks! : ))
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@ Jorbia
This is how I see it:
1. You act as an apologist for blackface.
2. The Alchemist says you are blind to racism, using the watermelon seed cake example
3. You call it a personal attack and want me to delete her comment.
4. I call it valid criticism and let it stand.
5. You call me dishonest and her a liar. You want me to apologize because, according to you, I know what I did was wrong.
I have to make judgement calls. Not all of them are going to be right. I err on the side of letting comments stand rather than deleting them.
Had I deleted The Alchemist’s comment, then I would be here arguing with her instead of you. Only her argument would be far stronger – that I was protecting you from criticism, that I was practising censorship.
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I think what the Anarchist was trying to get across was the idea of
“Well, by that logic, Jorbia would probably also have to categorize the watermelon seed cake incident as not being racist.” And sure, it’s a bit unfair, but not massively so.
But if The Alchemist was actually in the watermelon seed cake thread itself saying “If Jorbia was here in this thread, she’d be agreeing with these cake eaters” then for me, that would be clearly crossing the line.
I think that in the first case, it’s saying that her logic, as applied to this other case that we’re all familiar with, would necessitate a given conclusion. Whereas in the second case it’s clearly speaking for another person. But in any case, I suppose the language could have been a bit more clear and the comment probably would have been better addressed directly to Jorbia. But it’s easy to say all of that in hindsight.
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Want me to do it instead?
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Also. I think that this post is one of the main reasons that Abagond should switch to a skin with threaded replies. Let the Crazies stay over one side wit their “Melanin Theory”, let the apologists apologize over another side, and let everyone else engage in conversation.
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@Abagond–
🙂 Hilarious! This has become a never-ending dramatic soap opera. When the show is produced, I wonder who they’ll get to play me. Kerry, you think? Who’d play you?
1. You act as an apologist for blackface.
This is your OPINION. Pure supposition. You have no proof.
2. The Alchemist says you are blind to racism, using the watermelon seed cake example
However, I have actually stated that I consider that particular incident to be racist. If The Alchemist had asked me before she lied on me what my opinion was about this incident, I would have told her that, and all of this could have been avoided.
3. You call it a personal attack and want me to delete her comment.
According to your rules, I didn’t know it was allowed to lie on other commenters simply due to disagreement with them. This is a bad precedent. It will come back to haunt you.
4. I call it valid criticism and let it stand.
This is because you agree with her. Just say it. You have a dog in this fight, so you are very biased, so don’t pretend you are impartial. You are showing that your bias will always cause you to support and shield those who support your bias. This is why I won’t continue to post on your site. You have clearly shown your bias against me. “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.”
5. You call me dishonest and her a liar. You want me to apologize because, according to you, I know what I did was wrong.
Yes, you’re dishonest and she’s a liar. It takes a certain amount of character to apologize when one does wrong. There is dissonance inside you though, because you know you are wrong. You have ALL the power here. You are God here. You could kill me off instantly, but you’re trying to escape without any blood on your hands. You can’t because your readers and commenters won’t forget this. You have diminished yourself in the eyes of some of them. Of course, some of your rabid supporters are yelling, “You don’t have to explain anything! Kill the B!”
I have to make judgement calls. Not all of them are going to be right. I err on the side of letting comments stand rather than deleting them.
Oh, so you want me to understand that you have no choice but to do this to me. Remember that we both know that you didn’t let some of my comments stand, but I’ll use an example to translate what I hear you saying:
In the system of capital punishment, we know we have to “make judgment calls. Not all of them are going to be right.” We’ll have to execute a few innocent Black men sometimes, but we’re willing to err for the greater good.
Had I deleted The Alchemist’s comment, then I would be here arguing with her instead of you. Only her argument would be far stronger – that I was protecting you from criticism, that I was practising censorship.
I would NOT want you to delete The Alchemist’s comment. I never expected that. We’re all expressing our opinions/views. I would support her right to express her views. My ONLY problem with her views is that she used MY NAME and in the process, she lied on me and slandered me. She could easily have used the phrase: “Some people claim . . . .” However, you approve of her using MY NAME, because you wanted someone to slam me, and that’s what this is all about.
In the offline world, I could sue her and get you too, as an accessory. You would probably be hit with the biggest penalty because even after I told you what she did, you continued to support her.
Abagond, we don’t need to keep talking about this. This is just wrong. I can’t absolve you of your guilt. You are ALL-powerful here, but you will see this again, and you will remember what you did here to me.
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@King–
But if The Alchemist was actually in the watermelon seed cake thread itself saying “If Jorbia was here in this thread, she’d be agreeing with these cake eaters” then for me, that would be clearly crossing the line.
THANKS for being impartial. You know that this is about PRINCIPLE. I’m happy that some of you can stand up for principle. The oddest part about this to me is that Abagond already knew that I’m an independent thinker. I’ve never minced words here. He didn’t even have to ever allow me to post here. Yet . . .
But back to this situation:
The Alchemist clearly said: “Jorbia would claim . . . .”
And as I’ve repeatedly said, there was no reason why she had to mention MY NAME unless she wanted to express spite and enmity towards me, personally.
Then, some here wonder why I’m taking this personally. Well, if someone calls your name and lies on you in a spiteful manner, I think anyone would be stupid not to take that personally.
Anyway, we all know that something rotten happened here, but as far as I’m concerned, we all need to drop it now, and go on with life.
Thanks for everything!
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I am going to say this and then I am done
@ Jorbia
I understand you are upset but frankly at this point you need to let it go (and yes you are the only one keeping it up). You want Abagond to do and feel a certain way and he just frankly does not. Just because you keep writing to him hoping he will change and admit it will not make him change or admit anything. You can force him to do anything. Just as no one can force you to do anything. Secondly You have taken several side swipes at individuals not just in this thread but others, In your effort to “read black Americans.” I personally don’t take offense to what you say because hey it does not apply to me, but I see where you do it.
“I think anyone would be stupid not to take that personally.”–Then I guess I am stupid. When I first got married I used to take any insult or whatever personal and protest for days. My husband would say “throw it out there and a hit dog will holla.” I would roll my eye and finally one day I asked him what that means. He said “If it is not true then why do you get mad…is it true?” I said no and realized how petty I was being over stuff that did not even apply to me. I have had people online call me far worse than what you are upset about and I just laugh. Doug called me a B**ck B**ch, I have been accused of calling someone a pedophile, I have been told I have a degree from law and order, and not to mention being called an unfit mother. I don’t need to sweat anything that does not apply to me. That is my advice to you as well.
@ The Alchemist
You may have wanted to address Jorbia, but I am not going to harp on this issue seeing as we all have done this. To chastize you would be as if I am thinking as myself as above being chastized for this myself. I am not sure what past issue you may have with Jorbia or maybe you just tried to read her based on her comments, but is it too much to ask not to bring past anger to another thread. I credit you because you have stayed out of it so far.
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In other news. I showed my husband this post and pictures to get a bit of input on what he thought. He stated that he liked the pictures. He went on to say how often has the black girl been used and showcased as the African Queen? He felt it was innovative the saw he took this homely looking white kid and made her an African Queen. In short the man simply thought outside of the box. People expected her to be a black female and he just changed it up a bit.
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@Sharina: You are the voice of reason. I like that you want to be a peace maker. Thanks for sharing your spouse’s perspective and viewpoint. That was interesting. The lesson for me in this whole incident was not to be narrow minded. Guard against herd and hive mentality. Having alternative viewpoints is not not such a bad thing in some cases depending on what the topic is. This was my lesson from all this. I have learned that I have a myopic view of things and need to be more broad minded about certain things. Anyway Thanks Sharina. I appreciate you bringing clarity to this incident for me.
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@Sharina–
Secondly You have taken several side swipes at individuals not just in this thread but others, In your effort to “read black Americans.”
I WAS done with commenting here, but okay, let’s go on with it for another 5,000 comments.
You will not find any case where I have called ANY person’s NAME here when I talk about Black Americans, unless I was talking TO that person or been in conversation WITH that person about that topic. The Alchemist had never talked directly TO me (according to my memory). Unless I’m forgetting something, I wasn’t even aware of The Alchemist until a few days ago.
No, I don’t take side swipes at Black Americans. I talk directly about us. My parents ARE Black Americans; my relatives are Black Americans, and so am I.
There are people who allow themselves to be called all kinds of names and abused in all kinds of ways. I know that. That doesn’t mean that I should allow it, so to use yourself as an example of what a woman allows herself to be called is not a good example.
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@ Jorbia
“You will not find any case where I have called ANY person’s NAME here when I talk about Black Americans, unless I was talking TO that person or been in conversation WITH that person about that topic.”–You don’t need to call a persons name to sideswipe them. I will be fair in saying you may not even realize you do it because then again it is another common act on this thread.
“The Alchemist had never talked directly TO me (according to my memory). Unless I’m forgetting something, I wasn’t even aware of The Alchemist until a few days ago.”–Which goes back to my theory that she may have been reading you based on your comment.
“No, I don’t take side swipes at Black Americans. I talk directly about us. My parents ARE Black Americans; my relatives are Black Americans, and so am I.”–You know as well as I do that blacks talk sh*t about each other all the time, but I never said you took side swipes at black Americans. I said you took side swipes at individuals in your efforts to “read black americans.”
“There are people who allow themselves to be called all kinds of names and abused in all kinds of ways. I know that. That doesn’t mean that I should allow it, so to use yourself as an example of what a woman allows herself to be called is not a good example.”—You complete mistook what I said. I am not saying a person should allow anything and I certainly have not allowed someone to just run me over in my life, but I will not be one to let someone dictate my emotion meter over the internet. You do realize why you are here being upset. They are behind their computers laughing their butts off on how much their simply little statements can make you act like this. To them they hit the control gold mine and they know that they can get to you and how they can now. Even more so the same pettiness you have directed blacks to avoid you are now exhibiting. If this internet argument is worth it to you then continue, but as I said before. if it does not apply to you then why be mad about it?
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@ mary burrell
Thanks. I really appreciate your input. I was a little worried that I would get the “white apologist” flack lol. After the inital reaction, I was more curious on whether or not those were actual African attire. This is why I am hoping to get some input on the blog from someone that lives in Africa and is fully aware of African culture and attire etc.
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Sharina, I’m not upset. I’m having a nice day. The weather is beautiful here, so my fiance and I are about to go out for a late lunch and a walk. You are mis-reading my emotional state. That’s the problem with online communication; a lot is lost.
IMO, you’re sounding upset to me. Maybe, you’re not, but you sound that way. I’m not sure why you started this topic up again, after I had said my “thank yous.” I was finished with commenting on the site.
Hopefully, others will be able to continue discussing this thread’s actual topic without commenting any further on this detour.
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@ Sharina; That Since it was African culture that was supposed to be represented in the fashion expose’. It makes sense to see what the actual diasporic people think of this. Was this offensive to them? There are so many angels to view this from.
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*angles* forgive typo.
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@ Jorbia
If you are not upset, then you most certainly would not have wasted precious time with the one you love writing several paragraphs to or about Abagond.
And if you choose to misconstrue concern with being upset then by all means it is your opinion.
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My personal opinion!
Jorbia does make some good points. This I have come to see. Sometimes she says things that need to be said about the in-house problems within the black community that most would rather ignore.
However, she doesn’t like anyone disagreeing with her views. She usually turns anything said against her into some sort of personal attack. I don’t know why!! To me it just means she doesn’t like criticism and wants her ideas to be accepted without serious question. Maybe she thinks she can’t be wrong.
Also she comes across as apologetic to white supremacy but maybe because she concentrates too much on problems within the black community. It makes you wonder why she never offers a different point of view. She encourages us to integrate into what I can only describe as a supremacist culture with her arguments. She see’s the white way as the right way!! She doesn’t call it out on it’s negative aspects but has no problem on calling out black people whilst at the same time no commending them for any positive achievements independent of anything attributable to white culture.
However, I do’t know much about her to say any of the above with any real certainty. Just my general opinion.
But anyways, she is an interesting person is all I can say and btw Jorbia, I was born in africa and raised there for most of my life and when I moved over to europe as a kid my parents made it a point to keep me away from the ghettos as it were – as they knew the general rule is once you go in, it’s very hard to come out. In hindsight this has made it easier to “integrate” in terms of getting “accepted” by the ruling white culture but has left me “isolated” in terms of developing meaningful connections with “black” people who are into so-called “black-culture”. In africa you don’t rally round an idea, you are black everyone is black you just kind of get on with the act of living, out here, it’s different and I guess this can explain the differences in perception between first generation immigrants and nth generation immigrants.
I say the above because you’ve made some comments about 1st generation immigrant issues which are somewhat true as per my experiences.
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@ Mary Burrell
No worries on the typos because I am sure my posts are loaded. There are many different angles it can be viewed from that is true, but my biggest thing is what we as American blacks see as offensive, they may not or perhaps they may feel that the culture was disrespected.
Another thing that is bothering me, is age. She is quite young and it makes me wonder how many models do we look at everyday are that young? That kind of talk may need a whole different thread of it’s own to discuss, but grown men see and desire these models and knowing they can be so young is scary for me. I am sure scary for any mother with a young daughter. Not to mention how teenage fashion is mimicing more along the lines of adult fashion.
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@ Wilson
I am curious (if you have not already stated) what is your opinion on the black face article?
I will say I am shy to approach Africans. Then again I am shy to approach anyone of a different culture, but once I do I really let loose. I hate the idea that Black Americans and Africans are considered so seperate. I wish it can be looked at as one people, but many of the cultures and ideas are different.
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@ Sharina,
My feelings on the picture are not as strong as other commentators. As soon as I saw the picture, I compared it to how blacks were being depicted in publications earlier in the 20th centuries – those pictures with the guys with overly big fat red lips. (Don’t know what they are called)! Compared to those, the above somewhat pales in comparison in terms of offensiveness and dehumanization. However, I understand how this is extraordinarily offensive to black women in particular.
If anything I think the above picture is just another illustration of how racist white culture operates in terms of theft. It envies certain aspects of other cultures to the point of outright theft but at the same time despises the people of those ‘other’ cultures. It’s a weird and hard thing to get ones head around.
Regarding what the Magazine and Photographer said about the picture, my opinion is it is 100% BS! Working in white operated organisations has taught me that, if black people are gifted in terms of physical ability as the stereoptypes go, asians in terms of being smart or whatever, white culture is gifted with the ability to lie oh so elegantly and hypnotically.
Sharina, I do understand where you are coming from in terms of the divide between different groups of black people. I feel this to especially with those blacks who’ve been here for several generations. I am yet to figure out why this feeling is there and why it is there. The best way I can describe it is a feeling of division and separateness.
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* excuse the typos!
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“Wilson@
Sharina, I do understand where you are coming from in terms of the divide between different groups of black people. I feel this to especially with those blacks who’ve been here for several generations. I am yet to figure out why this feeling is there and why it is there. The best way I can describe it is a feeling of division and separateness.”
Linda says,
It’s because you remember what it’s like to come from a country where black people are the majority and we don’t have to think about or live with a white majority — we are on the bottom, middle, and top — our biggest issues are every day, mundane issues such as education and “classism” – just like any country in Europe.
whereas, 2nd generations feel that they are citizens and are not happy with the divide and being made to feel like they are still foreigners in their own country.
That’s why I frequently go home (Jamaica) to remind ourselves not to get sucked into the vortex that has mentally trapped many people living in white majority countries.
I hear my younger cousins (in London) complain about how hard it is to get a job if you’re not connected and they seemed so upset that as Britians, they still have a feeling of being “locked out”
I think its even worse for West Indians living in England who actually believed the hype that England was the “mother country” and that going “home to Britian” would solve many problems that were faced back in the islands…my grandparents were among many that were disillusioned….but unfortunately, it is hard to go home.
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and when I say “we are on the bottom, middle, and top”, I mean black and brown people
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@deepdkchocolate
seems like you wish to continue debating with the “boring” one… but at the same time you don’t. I asked a question that is relevant because it is the core of the problem, the intersection of biology and theory. A very precise point that makes the theory or not…
DDC: I am not here to educate u or lift u out of ignorance , if u want to gather relevant info on any topic, u need to research that topic, big difference between debating and teaching. Not here to teach u anything, k?
By the way, you never answered that question: wha t about albino people and their pineal gland ? Does the fact that THEY have no melanin make them not “black” ? Because if all this is biology, then we have a problem here
DDC:I don’t have to answer that. Once again , if that is something that interests u, I suggest u research it. It’s not the topic being discussed here. K? I am not here to do ur bidding.
And below is the answer I got. I *really* (really) thought you could tell me what the melanin theory says about this because you seems to know what the theory says. But here is the answer I get (even though I already said I’m planning to read more on this…). This would have made thing clearer faster and we could have moved on to sth else.
You answered:
I told u before, if it is info u seek ,pick up a book and read
DDC: Anyone would tell u the same, U cannot be that interested in finding the truth of this ur just waiting around for someone to hand u info on a silver platter. I don’t do that.
As for the regions I was referring too, they are the many regions of Africa where there are albino people. Many regions. In Mali, in Cameroon, in eastern Africa, that’s the one I know about, there are others.
DDC: Never disputed that.
As for the “convo” that was deleted, DDC, it started with your post containing the reference to the US census as a “proof” that “races” exist… Not mine. I copied the thread, I know.
DDC: That was not the case at all even if it was Agabong would not have deleted that it was ur getting off topic and making it all about u, grow up.
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@ Linda,
I totally agree.
Yes it is hard to get any decent job without connections and/or any form of higher education qualification. Also you have to be able to “integrate” as it were.
The whole economic thing is hard but nowadays it’s also hard for a lot of white people, a lot of them are getting sucked down to the reality many black people have faced for many years.
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We , as black people, are still the “Last ones hired, first ones fired”…
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^ And it’s not that great in between the two events either!
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No it ain’t..
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@Sharina
Yes I am a young, Black female and I am always considered a sellout because I have different interests than most Black women my age.
Honestly I am coming from this generation and my generation is okay with interracial dating. So I am okay with dating out.
Trust me, you aren’t a sellout for dating out.
@Linda
It was a big shock to my mother when she came from Jamaica to America in the early 1970s because she left her majority Black country to have a better life here in America. She was a little girl at the time. My father left Jamaica when he was an adult and it was still a cultural shock for him.
I was born in New York of Jamaican immigrants. Personally when I moved to Florida when I was eight(I am still living there), I haven’t felt like I can relate to Black girls in my town. I don’t feel that I am better than them but they see me as an Oreo who talks like a White girl and thinks that I am better than them. I don’t think I am better but in my town, if you don’t fit a certain mold of a Black girl, you could be ridiculed or even feel left out.
I only have one Black female friend but she is of Caribbean descent like I am and we are both from the North. Her name is Candace but she is Trinidadian. I can actually relate to her because we have some of the same interests.
I don’t like it that African and West Indian immigrants feel so ”different” and divided from Black Americans. We are Black first.
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satanforce:
“…Let the Crazies stay over one side wit their “Melanin Theory”, let the apologists apologize over another side…”
– – –
Oh my! LOL, you just laid it all out there, didn’t you?!
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Fiamma
satanforce:
“…Let the Crazies stay over one side wit their “Melanin Theory”, let the apologists apologize over another side…”
– – –
Oh my! LOL, you just laid it all out there, didn’t you?!
DDC:
Did she/he? It is pretty easy to dismiss The Melanin Theory when u don’t possess any, isn’t it? lol.I have melanin and so am not so readily able to do that ( dismiss melanin theory) but carry on.Sorry that is a point of consternation for those of u who don’t have melanin. I guess it sucks to be u..lol.
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Ugh, the pictures are not making an artistic statement. It’s wrong on so many levels. It’s instances like these I don’t blame black people for saying negative stuff about Asians. It is deserved. Good going, Mr. Sebastian Kim.
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“Adeen @
I don’t like it that African and West Indian immigrants feel so ”different” and divided from Black Americans. We are Black first.”
Linda says,
Adeen, Yes, we are all black first in America and trust, black/brown immigrants and black Americans always come together when dealing with the white majority’s “racism” and prejudice … but if you take away white racism and colour, you are left with human “group” behaviour…in which Ethnic culture/ heritage/ nationality takes over – that’s just human nature.
No matter how you slice it, there IS a difference between black American culture and West Indian /African cultures because our histories are different … you cannot wish it away…it is what it is…
Right now things seem bleak to you because it’s tough feeling isolated but trust, once you leave high school, things will change for the better.
I went through a similar situation as you (I did 2 years in an American high school before I left for Europe) and like your parents, I experienced a cultural shock…(it’s like I stepped into the game where everyone knew the rules but me)
I caught h’ll from both sides — kids can be mean! I got called names I had NEVER heard before. My brothers and I got into fights with both black and white American kids who attempted to bully us because we were foreign and according to them, looked and sounded “strange”. (but they soon learned what ‘fling rock stone’ meant)
I wrote about it here:
What kept me grounded was the fact that I knew “who” I was, took pride in my heritage and like you, I made friends with the other Caribbeans around me; we provided support for each other…that’s what was needed at that time in my life.
I had felt very disappointed with my initial experiences. After hearing things about the US and watching American TV shows, I had a certain picture of America that definitely did NOT live up to the hype — I disliked both (black and white Americans) by the time I left America.
Time and having meaningful interactions with both black and white Americans helped me to get past my horrible experience with them. Learning about their history helped me to see them as individuals and understand the “whys” and “hows” of their behaviors/ mindset and as the old saying goes, now “some of my best friends are American”
My opinion, being “black” should not define who you are… you are not “Adeen, the black girl”…you are “Adeen, a young woman with a vast future ahead of her, who just happens to be black. Be proud of your heritage and who you are.
“Beauty fades but dumb is Forever” — Remember that when those girls/kids try to make you feel bad.
“Don’t take on other people’s hang ups” – Remember that when as an adult, someone tries to judge you based on their narrow or stereotypical views. Always believe in yourself and learn to recognize a snake when it’s dressed in sheeps clothing.
Your parents came to this country for a reason…remember that and honour those reasons…stick to the goal – everything else will work itself out over time.
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leigh204
Ugh, the pictures are not making an artistic statement. It’s wrong on so many levels. It’s instances like these I don’t blame black people for saying negative stuff about Asians. It is deserved. Good going, Mr. Sebastian Kim.
But we r smart enough to realize that Mr. Kim does not represent all asians.
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Exactly. Mr. Kim represents Mr. Kim. That’s what separates us from Church’s.
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Guys, I completely understand what you’re saying. I’m just saying as an Asian-Canadian, I’ve come across other Asians who were anti-Black. I just find the so-called “artistic” blackface pictures disconcerting because I’m aware of the issues between Asians and Blacks. I hope I’m making sense here.
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Oh, I totally get you Leigh, I find the practice of blackface disconcerting as well. But I think we were just saying that your discomfort with the the pictures is understandable, but that your discomfort should fall short of any feeling of shared culpability.
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leigh204
Guys, I completely understand what you’re saying. I’m just saying as an Asian-Canadian, I’ve come across other Asians who were anti-Black. I just find the so-called “artistic” blackface pictures disconcerting because I’m aware of the issues between Asians and Blacks. I hope I’m making sense here.
Certainly.
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@ Leigh
Of course we get what you are saying. It is always really good to hear from you on these threads. 🙂
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@ Linda and Wilson
Thank you from that very interesting prospective.
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There you go again with the ad hominems, deepdkchocolate. I never attacked you personally, and even now won’t do so. But I did ask you to refrain from addressing me which you’ve plainly ignored and heaped even more abuse….
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@ Sharina,
I recall Doug’s ad hominem attack on you and, not only did I admire your handling of the situation, I learned from it. I also admire the level-headedness of your responses here to Jorbia.
Kudos to you, Sharina
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OK Bulanik….
Im not down on intellect,Im down on intellectual conclusions made in steril surroundings, like universities, that dont really go into depth about the whole picture, like the desician to catagorise Louis Armstrong as “uncle Tom” without really understading his history and real value…or like jazz schools teaching all the Western ways to play music, but dont get into the essences of groove and turning off the thinking brain and feeling it, like many of the great jazz musicians did.Im not anti intellect ready to call out authority…
I have always acknowledged what you said about there were slaves in those places, my objective was always in context of the original discusion about 10 million slaves going over the Red Sea , and , where is the cultural similarity to a place like Brazil? who had about 4 million slaves brought there .Argentina is not a good example because the numbers just (since quite a bit of the Arab slave trade was in the 18 hundreds, that isnt that far back that theere shouldnt be some kind of presence like you have in Brazil of the color and physical feature break down,which would include huge amounts of people who look very black with features like the places in Africa they were brought from) arnt the same..it would be better to compare Argentina with Turkey or India as far as the amount of African slaves brought there from the Arab slave trade and the cultural influence .
Instead of asimilation, I suggest its more a case of being suffocated, bured and destroyed, especialy on a cultural leval
I always intake the information you bring in, for example, in Brazil, the black men were sent to the Paraguay war also, and it didnt affect the numbers, but, this information in Argentina, led me to the conclusion that this drum called “bomba laguera” is actualy a feild drum of war and, since there were so many slaves being sent to the front, it could explain that 6/8 aprooach I hear them use in some sections of the Argentinian drumming, and they have that in the South of Brazil, because they are influenced by Argentina culture, and those 6/8 bomba laguero parts were an anomolie for me, now I beleive that could be the answer…but, just a guess
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Okay, I have read the “discussion” above down to Abagond’s post with the “5 points of Jorbia” and I am VERY disappointed.
Abagond you were wrong and I have the confirmation here that you take sides, I already felt so in my “attempts” to exchange with DDC.
My “panties” are still here hanging “in a bunch” *on the thread*, btw. (And may I add that DDC NEVER debated anything with me).
Jorbia’s input is very interesting (King’s too, I like his style and Linda’s), and several posters have expressed their views that your reaction was wrong. Even those who agreed with The Alchemist presented some nuance in their take on this:
To imply that this was debating and not a personal attack is dishonest. Period. Jorbia was right. And she was also right in saying that you didn’t respect your own rules.
I really regret that Jorbia won’t post here anymore, because I see a lot of thing the same way as she does, I don’t agree with others, and I was glad to see that WHAT we are supposed to be (“white” or “black doesn’t have much to do with WHO we are.
As persons, human beings we all have the capacity to think, and if we don’t, it’s because we are fine with the state of things as it is.
As far as The Alchemist’s claims:
It all depends on what she (you) mean(s) by “white person”. I am classified as “white” in this US of A and I do exactly what she says POC do. I do it all the time. People think I’m crazy but I don’t care because I think it’s the right thing to do.
Peace
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And then she claims her posts to not be personal ? And they stay on ? Come on now !
What exactly does this bring to the debate and what are the arguments to support claims ?
We all have melanin unless we are albino. If there is one biological postulate to the melanin theory it could be that. From then on, let’s debate about the various percentages of melanin we have and how “interesting” or “civilized” that makes us. Half ? A quarter ? Can we have a Melanin Theory thread, please ?
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DDC’s original comment (deemed “nasty” by Bulanik in the comment I posted about its not being delated, which -the former that Bulanik commented on- have been deleted) is still there.
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All panties have been deleted from this thread except here:
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Thank you Abagond.
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Yeah Agabond bow down to these white supremacists who can dish it out but cannot take it, way to go!
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I dont care if you dont want to talk about music, Bulanik , those were good examples of what Im talking about
Ive explained very clearly where these agruments Im making on the Arab slave trade, how it doesnt play out in Argentina, becuase of the numbers etc Living down here in South America , some of your observations from a long way away sound naive…you get stuck on words I say like “pockets of black Argentinians” , “black muslimsfrom Africa in Brazil were a side note”, but your referances are your few aquaintances you have in your life there…I tell you, if you tried to grasp the USA from the Americans living where I live, you wouldnt get much
If you dont like my arguments, go ahead and just dont like it
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“BR,
What was really discussed before was how could 10 million slaves be brought over the Red Sea and yet there is no huge indication of Afro diasporic culture like you find in Brazil , which had several millions of slaves brought over, and the Afro diasporic culture is blatent, its blatent in any country that had large black African slave populations.
Argentina doesnt have a huge Afro diasoporic culture and was used wrongly as an example of how it could have happened across the Red Sea …the analogy is wrong because the numbers dont compare with the numbers brought over the Red Sea, you have to use Brazil as the model…like I said, Uruguai has a much bigger Afro diasporic culture”
Linda says,
BR, didn’t even realize you said the above
This comment you just made is about the clearest you have Ever been in regards to any subject (that is not related to music) –so I should give you props for that 🙂
and just because You missed my analogy about Argentina by 10 miles (that other people understood) doesn’t mean the analogy didn’t have merit.
here is the link to the discussion so that you can re-fresh yourself:
In relation to this discussion, I don’t know what point you think you’re making by bring up that discussion…are you once again trying to be slick and pass out insults?
I am not trying to be mean but of late, you have been crossing the line —
You are not the only person who knows anything about South America or it’s history because you live in Brazil. That’s like me saying I know everything about the other countries in Central America and the Caribbean because I am Jamaican/ Honduran or I know everything about the USA because I live here.
I didn’t wish to go further with you about South American slavery vs Arab slavery because I felt it would de-rail that particular post but if you want, we can have that discussion….and please, dear God, leave out your musical analogies (I want to talk about the subject at hand without having to hear about African drumming 🙂
By the way, customarily, when a group of people are holding a discussion, they are presenting information and giving their opinion; and it’s customary to actually listen to other peoples POV — but with you recently, you have been snarky and condescending — presenting your point of view like it’s the Gospel — it’s not.
If you tell me about how things roll in Brazil or USA, I will listen or if you talk about music, I will listen and take you seriously because these are things you know about because they are part of your life….but everything else is your OPINION and not a fact.
so por favor, please stop acting like you are the the authority on African or Afro-diasporic cultures trying to teach us poor, lost black/ brown souls about our forefathers.
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Wow Agabond u have taken a blog that has the potential to really do something and have allowed it to become a blog where whites control and delete comments when they can’t handle it and ur kopw-towing to that. “Oh I really want u to delete that for me, Agabong, that n-word shoouldn’t say that to me” do u have any balls? Guess not.
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@ Fiamma
Thank You.
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@ Bulanik
“Abagond, thank you for deleting most of the panties..”
LOL
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@ Deepdkchocolate
Let’s be honest. You do make a lot of personal attacks for no reason whatsoever.
On the other hand the constant whinning from people who can’t get their way has become quite annoying. It is what it is.
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I’ve been a commenter here long enough to know that abagond has banned others for much less trollery than he is allowing this one person to get away with. He deleted all of her insults to me last night but he also deleted my request to the troll to cease addressing me and my comments, which she completely ignored. I can’t imagine a more unpleasant atmosphere to comment where a troll fearlessly attacks others just for the hell of it and is allowed to do so.
As abagond obviously sees value in keeping an ad hominem slinging troll who can’t even refrain from insulting him, the owner of the very blog where she comes to defecate, I’ll take my cue from Jorbia and vacate the premises.
I don’t know what’s going on here, but I’m done with it, whatever it is.
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@ Linda
“I am not trying to be mean but of late, you have been crossing the line — ”
I am glad you said this. I have been feeling the same thing, but because you can Bulanik have done such a great job at addressing it I just stay out of it.
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@ Fiamma
I personally do not say anything to DDC because I concluded that she was crazy (this might get deleted). I determined that when she concluded that I and some others were white and was relentless about it.
I understand your position and hope you will atleast drop in from time to time to say hello.
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@ Bulanik
I hope Fiamma does not either.
The Alchemist made a comment to jorbia without commenting to her. Jorbia was offended. Abagond defended the Alchemist’s statments. It is a lot to read and I would recommend taking it from your point of view rather than mine. I am taking no sides on this one.
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@ Cornlia
“As persons, human beings we all have the capacity to think, and if we don’t, it’s because we are fine with the state of things as it is.”–I agree with this 100%.
“It all depends on what she (you) mean(s) by “white person”. I am classified as “white” in this US of A and I do exactly what she says POC do. I do it all the time. People think I’m crazy but I don’t care because I think it’s the right thing to do.”—In my book that counts more than you know. If you feel it is right then so be it. Don’t get caught up in letting other people tell you what is right and what is wrong.
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“so por favor, please stop acting like you are the the authority on African or Afro-diasporic cultures trying to teach us poor, lost black/ brown souls about our forefathers.”
That is your hangup, Linda, I never hold that over anyone, I just give information based on my experiances and studies..people start getting all up tight and “only music”..” frivilous drumming”
Yeah, I listen when you talk about Jamaica and ask questions, but when I say that black African Muslim influence in Brazil is a side note, and that sure is acknowledging it exists and I brought in examples of it, I get called arrogant
when I say that there are pockets of black Afro descendants in Argentina, i get put down and badgered …saying they got mixed out just shows how small the population was, Brazil did send black solders too, didnt affect the black population at all
Linda, Brazil is unique, in all the Americas, the only place that speaks Portuguese, there are customs here that you have to here to know about.
You called me a bad name for asking you if you knew your culture, not really tying it in that I was going to say that do you really think black Americans know your culture? do you really think they know? So, do you really think you know black American culture?
We have already been over the things Bulanik has acused me of, and you think Im crossing over the line?
Well, if questioning your line of thinking is crossing over the line with you, then you just have to accept that…I dont care, get mad, dont speak with me, I dont care Linda, I am who I am and Im going to talk a lot about drumming
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@ Bulanik
You are very welcome.
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Bulanik
Its just plain up simple, some brilliant university professor like moan chumpksi makes a huge thesis on colombia and the usa military industrial complex and all the problems it is and puts one paragraph about the farc as freedom fighters, that is a perfect example of an intellectual over analysis that is dishonest
how can a collage drop out like me know more of the real dirt farc is doing and this brilliant author and doctorate professor cant?
am i so smart? for sure not…he is intellectualy dishonest with all his great education , big words and searing logic against the usa , he is lieing about farc
The african Holocaust , goes into a huge page on his site about the use of the world “sub sahara Africa” and how racist it is, extremly logicaly laid out, very intellectualy presented
yet he has holes in many places, like he doesnt understand culture , for real, he makes statements about Mali over and over and their clture but he is dead wrong and I have proved it.
and master African musicians use the words to express what they are saying…
there is an example of a lot of verbage and logic intellectualism but he is intellectualy dishonest, he was wrong about Mali, it has huge examples of the concepts I said came from below the Sahara, it is not all mixed up… there are lines of definition of the cultures in Mali as well as the commonalities
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“BR @
Yeah, I listen when you talk about Jamaica and ask questions, but when I say that black African Muslim influence in Brazil is a side note, and that sure is acknowledging it exists and I brought in examples of it, I get called arrogant”
Linda says,
But what does your discussion with Bulanik about “black African Muslim influence in Brazil” have to do with me– absolutely nothing — so why are you telling me this nonsense.
Stop attributing comments made by Bulanik to me. Bulanik and I aren’t interchangeable parts, so that’s an issue you need to take up with Bulanik.
“BR @,
You called me a bad name for asking you if you knew your culture, not really tying it in that I was going to say that do you really think black Americans know your culture? do you really think they know? So, do you really think you know black American culture?”
Linda says,
BR, re-read your comment above….do you think the way you posed your question is truly “questioning my line of thinking”? From where I sit, this line of questioning is condescending and shows you don’t really care what I think because you have some point in your mind that you wish to make….
and yes, based on the comments you WRITE, you most certainly act like you got knowledge about african-diaspora black people on lock-down and your opinion is the gospel…as if no one else has life experiences and studies…
“BR @ Well, if questioning your line of thinking is crossing over the line with you, then you just have to accept that…I dont care, get mad, dont speak with me, I dont care Linda, I am who I am and Im going to talk a lot about drumming”
Linda says,
you obviously are the person getting mad, BR…I just asked you politely to stop boring me to death with your drumming so that we could have a 1/2 rational conversation that actually stays on point.
we could be talking about “Astro showers in the North Pole” and you will somehow find a way to bring in African drumming…I don’t get any enjoyment out of our conversation when I have to weed out 3/4 of it because it focuses on your profession and not the conversation at hand.
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Sharina,
no problem and I like when you jump in 🙂 because you always bring you’re own take and you aren’t much of a “bandwagon” commenter.
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@ Fiamma, For what it’s worth I enjoy your commentary as well. Please reconsider remaining a commenter. Your voice would be missed.
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Bulanik, psycho analysis is not one of your strong points…what ever you are trying to say, its extremly far off from any perception I have of what is going down here…I simply find some of your arguments weak and begging to be challenged, mostly with your false criticisms of me…how you turn this around like I am criticising you when you have made some of the most ridiculous acuasations at me just reveals your charactor to me
Linda, lets get some things straight here, this implication I am saying I know more than anyone on here about Brazil is catagoricly false. When I first came on this blog, there were several people on here who lived or had lived in Brazil…one guy as long as I have, we argued and faught all the time…to try to imply on this blog I am lording that over anyone is seriously false…I have my opinions and I fight for them
The same with this uptight position about me talking about African drumming all the time…first, I have contributed information on here no one else has, like about what Hugo Chavez is really up to, the racism of Sayim Qubt, and Che and Fidel, and about Brazil
Music and culture is my business, when I leave this blog, I am dealing with dancers, performers and musicians, this is how I perceive the world
Reffering to music dance and drumming, after being immersed for 55 years, has given me great insights into the origins of cultures and how people express themselves, and the depth and spiritual power that some of these origins can bring to the table….being able to understand this is as valuable as any anthropologist or arceaologist…
All I have done is share what I know, I never implied people ought to stop what they are doing and do that, they can accept the information I share if they want to or they dont have to listen at all. There is no implication I am above or better than anyone and the things they know in their businesses and studies, but what I know , I know…to not share what that is, would be denying information
I suggest you just ignore my posts that talk about African drumming
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@ B.R.
I respect your take on music and I respect your opinions as well, but not everything can be summed up in music and dance. Don’t take this as me being mean. Take this as me being honest with you because frankly I prefer not to blow smoke up anyones azz.
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“BR @
The same with this uptight position about me talking about African drumming all the time…first, I have contributed information on here no one else has, like about what Hugo Chavez is really up to, the racism of Sayim Qubt, and Che and Fidel, and about Brazil
I suggest you just ignore my posts that talk about African drumming”
Linda says,
Then you and I would never converse because you put music analogies/ drumming in almost every post or answer to a post…imagine if I did the same thing.
My real life profession is in the medical field (along with real estate/finance) — I don’t think you would be too excited if I used medical terminology through out the majority of my posts. Let’s see, we can talk about racism in the music industry and
then I can answer you back by continuously talking about the average GFR glomerular filtration rate between black vs white Americans or which angiotensin converting enzyme inhibitors or Beta Blockers works better when dealing with cardiomyopathy within the black American community — exciting conversation right ?! 🙂 derivatives, base rates, ROE anyone….
I know it’s your profession and that’s why you are passionate — I am not criticizing you for that….I am just saying your profession takes up too much of the conversation when it’s not music related….I just want to focus on the topic at hand.
and by the way, why do you assume the information you brought in about Chavez or Fidel is new to anyone? just because you decided to bring it up as a conversation piece doesn’t mean no one is aware….I hear the church choir getting ready to sing the BR gospel…
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@ Fiamma:
My mistake. I restored it:
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@Cornlia
Just because the we don’t have threaded replies, doesn’t mean that we can’t leave the crazies to onside. I will continue to observe this, and the Chavez thread as at seems a certain Brazilian resident is headed down the same path as another similar gentleman who used to be on this forum.
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Legion. it really throws a wrench in the works if I have a strong differance of opinion and can bring in solid facts that prove my point…
What kind of argument are you making saying Im trying to portray myself as luminary when Im just defending the fact that I dont just talk in terms of African drumming? Im just bringing in the proof that I have talked about relative subjects that arnt African drumming, and things no one else mentioned…my gawd that isnt some acnouncement of genius…its saying you are ignorant of a lot of things in this world…and I use maon chumpski all over the internet, like it or lump it, that is what I call him
Yeah, Linda, well I dont really talk in technical terms to you about music, or we could discuss stuff like “hey, Miles and the group are actualy soloing on the form on “Gingerbread Boy” from Miles Smiles, its a 12 bar blues with a 4 bar tag…gosh it took me along time to realise that…” I dont talk in music in tecnical terms, I talk in conceptual terms and you could talk in conceptual terms for medical and economial aspects as well…and the conceptual terms are as aplicable to many of these discusions as any arcaologic , or anthropologic information that could be used also
Linda, if you knew about Chavez assisting Farc and the damage Farc does to Brazil, why wouldnt you mention that?You know about the PCC? Fernando Beiramar? Why wouldnt you mention that the Talaban use children for suicide bombers? Why couldnt you see through chumpski’s bs? You dont know about all these things,what kind of argument are you trying to make?If you knew about all these things and didnt mention it, you really are coming up short
Bulanik, you really have a knack for fairy tales about how you think things went down….
you know, in the past few months, ive been called an imbecil (hey,Legion, did I call you dirty names?), my intelligence has been called in question, my genital size has been mentioned as an argument against some of the facts Ive brought in, and Bulanik has tried like hades to label me a racist and stalker, and that is full of bull
this isnt a kumbaya atmosphere, so im not playing kumbaya, if you cant deal with the basic facts and info I bring in, I guess people have to resort to low blow insults and put downs….
Satan, observe all you want, if you think chavez is hunky dory,I hope you dont choke on him….I see through his bs and am quite comfortable with that
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I’ m not dumb. Petrocaribe is development trap, locking us into diesel at 30c a kwh, vs 5 cent for something more useful, like LNG, coal or nuclear. But I can express my differences of opinion to the members of this forum that I respect without being condescending or offensive.
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Yeah, Satan, I like to not be insulted and put down also…
I suggest to you that the ugly put downs and insults came at me first
I dont take bs lightly, Satan, I dont think you do either, and I will defend myself
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“BR,
Linda, if you knew about Chavez assisting Farc and the damage Farc does to Brazil, why wouldnt you mention that?You know about the PCC? Fernando Beiramar? Why wouldnt you mention that the Talaban use children for suicide bombers? Why couldnt you see through chumpski’s bs? You dont know about all these things,what kind of argument are you trying to make?If you knew about all these things and didnt mention it, you really are coming up short
if you cant deal with the basic facts and info I bring in, I guess people have to resort to low blow insults and put downs”
Linda says,
Once again, you are mixing me up with Bulanik and acting as if you and I had some kind of conversation on those topics in the pas t.. we didn’t
and as far as Chavez, FARC and Brazil….why in the h’ll would I bring it up??? do I live there? am I Brazilian? so because I didn’t bring the subject up to “BR” or Abagonds attention — therefore I am clueless…that’s your litmus test for other peoples knowledge??? really..
in the words of Flavor Flav…”wooooooow”
you are not a mind-reader, BR, and you have NEVER asked for my opinion, so you have no clue what I do or don’t know about Chavez or FARC … all you did above was formed your opinions based on your own assumptions….once again asking me questions with your own built-in answers —
so that shows: you don’t need me involved because you got that conversation between “you and you” on lock-down. Also,
Guess what BR, one man’s paradise is another man’s h’ll — just because YOU dislike Chavez doesn’t mean everyone else has to or choose to bring up subjects they don’t wish to discuss — such as the negative things Chavez did.
I am more concerned about how MY country is affected by Chavez and it’s future. I Chose to talk about Petrocaribe and how Chavez affected the Caribbean because that is what is important to me — the Caribbean and my country and what I felt was positive.
You live in Brazil, BR…so it makes sense that you care about Brazil…and if you weren’t being so condescending, then maybe people would be open to discussing Brazil and Chavez with you…
but I guess since you believe YOU are the only person on this Blog who knows that FARC exists and has a connection to Chavez, then you can continue to talk to yourself
and just in case you missed it…Abagond mentioned how Chavez and FARC at the bottome of his introductory, here it is:
Abagonds summary: “He (Chavez) was in bed with the FARC, the left-wing guerrillas of Colombia. He let them use Venezuela as a base and sold them guns for cocaine. Venezuela has long been part of the drug pipeline out of Colombia”
I told you before I don’t wish to fuss with you but as you said, you feel as though you are being attacked and you are not open to what I am saying…yes I hear you …too bad that courtesy can’t be extended.
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The fashion world is filled with dumb things like this. I think it was awhile back but Ethiopia was asking a designer why his clothing line look like their traditional wear.
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“You speak like a true imbecile; therefore, you are not worth paying the slightest bit of attention to. Your ignorance is the worst kind: not only do you not know, you do not realize that you do not know.”
Oh my gosh, please forgive me for not perceiving the grammatical differance that makes being called a direct imbecile differant than being said to speak like one and that my ignorance doesnt realise I dont know…
I mean, Legion, all I have been doing is bringing in facts, actual on the ground reports, realities….and I havent even denied the dirt the USA has done…what in gawds name are you talking about?
Linda , feel free to comment on Honduras and Chavez, I know all about it and Ill post it on the Chavez thread
But, you made the statement you know about these things in Brazil
All Im telling you and anyone else on here is that, I do make posts about other subjects besides African drumming that no one else on here makes…and I mean posts with links to actual reports, facts.
To portay me as only talking about music, and by the way I could care less if some of you are uptight about that, if you cant see the tie ins and the great body of knowledge that Im trying to refer to and how that cultural suffocation and destruction are the real basis for racism and the slave trade, that is the hang up of the people criticising that, join the white racists , they make the same criticisms , but to portray me as only that on here is catagoricaly false
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I mean wtf, look on the Chavez thread, Im carrying the whole oposing view point on my back,and doing a hades of a job, and bringing in real information and knowledge about it with actual links and facts and realities (my god the most people can do is imply im hired by the cia…hahahahahah, cmon,you have to be bsing, what a crock of crap hahahahah) and some people on here want to portray me as bringing everything down to African drumming?
what kind of petty @ss psyche games are going on here?
and people want to wonder why im on the defensive?
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@ Bulanik, I really tried to think of fashion as an art form but its entire system makes me sick. From the way it makes women question their own body types, to the fools behind the camera telling preteen girls to lose some weight or the next girl behind them will take their place. I dislike the music industry but absolutely hate the fashion industry. There has got to be something good about fashion but you have crawl over so much poop to find it.
I don’t mind if Art is offensive, stupid, or makes no sense. I mean in Japan they just asked for the state of David to be covered because well he’s hung. I don’t even mind the stupid cake thing because well there are a ton of idiots out there and even their voice has a right to try to be voiced, doesn’t mean I am listening. Yet fashion is so in your face with it bland models, no hips, and skeleton figures.
When I was a kid I remember you could get stabbed or killed for wearing a starter jacket, people wanted that crap so much.
The fashion industry loves to put minorities in the back ground, or gets angry when an Indian woman tells them she doesn’t appreciate being whiten. It sells you a shoe that cost a days wage and barely pays the people who assembled it. If Fashion is art then it carries a dirty ball and chain with it. It is liken to the Wizard of the Wizard of Oz, don’t look behind the curtain. If you try to ignore it you still come up with finding out that kids stitched a lot the garments you are wearing, the designer stole this from another culture, or the way they treat the people making their goods is horrible. I truely hope never to have to deal directly with the fashion industry again.
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“a blog where whites control and delete comments”
Now that was hilarious. Anyways…
I think I’m going to stick to commenting when a new post comes out (thank you Abagond for taking the time to research and think all these things through) because as threads go on they tend to lose substance, I think.
Plus, I don’t know you guys, but I have other things to do (like read tons of books) and iron, and wash, and cook… so… Peace !
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@ Bulanik
Because as far as I could tell you were just needling B.R. His faults and foibles have been aired at length and, in any case, are off topic here. If you have a specific complaint about him, then do it on the Comment Policy thread.
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@BR:
I agree with everything you have written although I have skipped your posts. You know why? You are white, so therefore you know everything. No need to ‘debate’ you. How dare those culluds do that? As a self-loathing negro, you have my support 100%!! Respect, straight up!
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This thread has gone way out of whack.
From this point I am deleting all comments that are not about blackface, racism in the fashion industry, the representation of blacks in the media or the post itself.
Melanin is off topic. So are the personal faults of commenters. I will, though, do a post on melanin within in the next few days, God willing.
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[…] “African Queen”: Numéro does blackface – again (abagond.wordpress.com) […]
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It seems as though this whole idea of dressing up white models in “Blackface” to portray Black models is endemic in the Eurocentric fashion industry….!
Dutch Vogue Under Fire For Featuring White Model In Black Face
http://www.yourblackworld.net/2013/04/black-celebrities/dutch-vogue-under-fire-for-featuring-white-model-in-black-face/
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Isn’t that what they do with black models anyway? All the high class ones have very thin features…looks like Joan Smalls (I love her modelling but still) I prefer sharam diniz
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Now the same thing with Dunkin Donuts in Thailand.
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yeah I just looked up the ad for dunkin donuts. smh. Why would they name a dessert charcoal, my mouth don’t water at that, maybe fudge or something but charcoal? ok .I never had any of their doughnuts before and never will. what is it with racists and coffee/ doughnut places, I remember that racist rant that white girl went on at dunkin doughnuts because they forgot to give her a receipt. all this is crazy and funny at the same time to me because u rarely see other ppl dressing up as whites and doing whiteface, white chicks is one of the few I’ve seen compared to all the long history of others doing blackface. I know they will deny deny, they tan and they say oh no we are not trying to look like u we were trying to look like the Latinas, with blackface imo u can’t lie and say I wasn’t trying to imitate u. The funny thing to me is they exaggerate our features and skin color I guess so other whites know they are not black and won’t mistake them for a n##r and treat them like a ni@@. They wouldn’t have the guts to actually try to look like us and walk in our shoes the way Joshua Solomon did, but no they wanna do it for entertainment instead of a social experiment. they ain’t Sheit.
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[…] “African Queen”: Numéro does blackface – again (abagond.wordpress.com) […]
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Sharina
@ Deepdkchocolate
Let’s be honest. You do make a lot of personal attacks for no reason whatsoever.
On the other hand the constant whinning from people who can’t get their way has become quite annoying. It is what it is
@Sharina, typical position of a fence-straddler attack me but support my position and assertions, u do not interest me, honey, never have never will.
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And I am Deepdkchocolate
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These photos Are Disgraceful to the black community.
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