Some misunderstand my position on mixed-race identities.
In the post on internalized racism I said:
God made you to look a certain way and gave you certain gifts to use in the course of your life. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of it. Nothing. It is only narrow-minded, brainwashed people who want you to believe otherwise. … Who think there is something wrong with you for just being you.
One commenter remarked:
What kind of people think there is something wrong with you for being you?
{Ping! silent, little explosion goes off in cerebral cortex…)
Yet the writer of this post believes it is a character flaw if a multi-racial brown- or black-skinned person of multi-racial parents says what they are!
She gathered that from a post I wrote about Tiger Woods where I point out that Nas thought it was a character flaw that Tiger Woods defended and excused white racists.
What Nas said in a King magazine interview:
Tiger Woods standing up for this white lady who said something about him being lynched is a coon move to me. God bless the brother. I like to see him doing his thing, but that’s a flaw to his character.
I point out two other examples of the same behaviour by Tiger Woods in the post.
The issue is not mixed-race identity in and of itself. It is trying to kiss up to whites, especially while distancing yourself from people of colour. It is hard for me to respect that. And, in most cases, this behaviour comes from internalized racism, from self-hatred. That is not a healthy thing.
Racial identity in America is not simple, certainly not as simple as applying a set of rules. It is something everyone has to work out for themselves. But not all courses of action are equal, not all are harmless and innocent. It is a moral, political and psychological decision that carries a cost of one sort or other.
Tiger Woods is hardly the only mixed-race person I have written about. For example:
- Danzy Senna, who can pass for white, sees herself as mixed race but has never distanced herself from being black.
- Anatole Broyard, who passed for white to become a literary critic, all but disowning his mother and sisters.
- Peola of “Imitation of Life”, who passed for white and turned her back on her black mother to be accepted by whites.
I have no issue with Danzy Senna, but the other two did the very thing I am talking about. This is not about me imposing the One Drop Rule on mixed-race people, as some think, this is about them being low lifes.
Selling out to whiteness, of course, is hardly limited to mixed-race people. Nearly all White Americans do it. And even some people of colour who are not mixed-race – like Michelle Malkin. Or Rented Negroes. It is what “The Boondocks” makes fun of in Uncle Ruckus.
See also:
I agree that this disclaimer post was taken out of context. I also read that the character flaw related to the racial self-description effort, not kissing up to whiteness.
Now I am afraid that another disclaimer will be added to that post as well.
The thing is – – – the impression is not from just that post, but from the hundreds of other posts and comments to posts that seem to corroborate that position.
And multiracials will hear these value judgements not only from schoolmates, teachers, neighbors, employers, and bloggers, but also from their very own family members. Each has to develop his own coping mechanism.
Yes, even multiracials who do decide to identify as black or other non-white have a price to pay, a cost to bear as well. Even the decision to identify as multiracial has a cost, as all those Tiger Woods types out there know well.
But I do agree with the point that people actually have to pass as white to be white, whether they are indeed white, or non-white or multiracial passing as white or something very close (including honorary white, rented negro, etc.).
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@Bulanik
Agree 1000%.
I went through about 1000 blog posts here and many of the comments as well. I think what is happening in the current blog post is an attempt to put disclaimers on prior expression of positions. The blogger also suffers from a level of internalized racism which has created this blind spot. By focusing on “white people and white supremacy”, the other important aspects of “What to tell your children about racism” simply got lost. And you put it simply as the “suppression of multiraciality” and the “marginalization of multiracials”. That is one of the outcomes of internalized racism.
Even the disclaimer post above is centred on “white people and white supremacy” and misses the point.
And yes, it has nothing to do with “imposing the One Drop Rule on mixed-race people”. We all can agree on that (although that is a reversal of the prior position). 😛
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Tiger Woods is very confused man. He needs to read some books by Neely Fuller and Frances Cress Welsing. It might help him be less confused.
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@Bulanik you said:
“It will come from other people of colour if there are some that want multi-racial people not to exist, or speak, as their authentic selves.”
Although this is delivered by poc, doesn’t it still stem from white supremacy?
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^ Not necessarily.
Agree, that it is not always about white supremacy.
And, people may be confused about things, but not always for the reasons people think they are. Sometimes it is the people who are labelling others as “confused” who are confused themselves.
I confuse people. It is not me who is the one confused.
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@ uniqueorchid
I deleted your comment twice for using racial slurs.
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@Jefe What else then?
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I would have to some what disagree with you on this post. As a biracial women, I learned a hard life lesson on multiracial and biracials place in this society.That we can’t please everyone including blacks.Some blacks want to claim that they’re the most welcoming towards biracials rather then whites. But,based on my experience they’re no better then some white people.Some Blacks claim multiracials and biracials just for the fact that they despise whites and their racism and hatred towards whites. They dare not let whites claim them, but as soon as the biracial is in the circle that claim of open mindness towards biracials. VANISHES. Hostility,jealousy,bitterness,insecurity for whatever reason starts to show
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And here’s my theory to your claim that you only despite biracials who have the “uppity,uncle ruckus” mentality.
It mght be due to the :subliminal,unconcious,passive aggressive , smile in your face,back stab you in the ,back ,hyprocrite,resentful attitudes some blacks has shown that has made some biracials lean more towards white or choose to pass as white.Or any other race they might be mixed with.
Biracials have been hurt emotionally and psycholigically time and time again,by the very people ,race,who claims they accept them. But to turn on biracials and reject them straight to their face. By making statements such as
Statement:”You didn’t get the job because your black,white people don’t care if your mixed or not”
Contradiction:”You only got the job because your mixed,light skin”
“Your black, stop acting white”
“Your not black”
“Smh who does she/he think they is. Saying they pro black and trying to join our club. They’re not really black”
“Look at this biracial,thinking they white ,white people veiw them the same as us,what a traitor”
If blacks claim biracials as blacks,why do they contradict themselves?
Why not accept them as blacks ,without looking at the texture of the hair or the color of the skin. The thing is biracials HAS acknowledged their blackness until blacks kept bringing up their mixed ancenstry .And making biracials feel inferior.
It just much easier to some biracials to deal with white people and be white then having to go through a love and hate relationship with blacks. i.e Tiger Woods .Even if he acknowledge to the world hes a black man due to the one drop rule. Black people will always find something to say to discredit his blackness.
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Now I’m confused. Maybe this might be a time to agree to disagree? Tiger Woods is definitely got identity issues. I’m sure his color views changed a little bit when he was lambasted by the media due to his infidelity.
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@ uniqueorchid, you said:
“The thing is biracials HAS acknowledged their blackness until blacks kept bringing up their mixed ancenstry.”
this is not completely true. look at the history of the creoles (mixed ‘black’ & ‘white’) & melungeons (mixed ‘black’ ‘white’ & native american). both groups denied their ‘blackness’ to be accepted by ‘white’ people. with mixed individuals like that why should we accept them as “one of us”?
besides, it’s only in usa & uk biracial people are considered ‘black’, and that’s only because of slavery & the 1-drop rule. in brazil and south africa they are considered a separate category altogether because they don’t follow the 1-drop rule.
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My wife is from Nicaragua. I’m a white born in the United States. The pain my son has suffered over the years because his skin is a bit darker than most whites in this area of the Country, where there are very few non-white people (South Dakota), is still with him. He remembers, bitterly, being called Sadam Hussein during the gulf war because of his complection.
When he was in high school he played hockey. At the end of the games each team lines up and pass by one another saying, “good game” and giving each opposing player a friendly bump, fist to fist. It was the last game of the season and this sportsman-like custom was being observed. My son went down the line giving bumps and congratulating each guy on the other team…that is until he came to one of the guys on the other team. This guy, my son hauled off and clobbered right in the mouth, knocking him on his rear and loosening some front teeth. The referee tackled my son because he was on his way to finish what he had started. The crowd went wild with boos, even parents of kids on our team. I was so embarrassed and bewildered that he would do such a thing.
In the car, on the way home I asked him why he would do such a thing. His answer: “That sonofabitch will never call me cocoa bean again!” It turns out that way back in the first grade my son had been teased, and especially so after his mother came to the class and demonstrated Latin American folk dances to the class. Classmates made fun of his mother’s accent and called him cocoa bean because of his complexion. He didn’t fight back because he was out-numbered about ten to one. He never told us about it. But he never forgot. And one of his tormentors paid a price for his bigotry years later after that hockey game. I am no longer embarrassed and bewildered about what happened that day.
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From laromana:
Although I agree that it’s wrong to deny an aspect of your identity in order to please RACISTS, I believe many Americans choose to deny the fact that “race” in America is/has NOT always been “set in stone” (eg. Irish were not always classifed as “White”, mixed race Native/White and Asian/White people were not always classifed as “White”) but mainly involves a SYSTEM INVENTED to REWARD those who are classified as “White”/Non-Black with UNEARNED/”RACE” BASED privileges (eg. better jobs, housing, fairer treatment in the justice system, etc), while PUNISHING those who are classifed as “Black” with UNEARNED “RACE” BASED disadvantages (discriminatory treatment in hiring, housing, justice system, etc.).
The IRRATIONAL/INVENTED social construct of “race” as used in America has NO BASIS in a person’s ACTUAL identity (DISTINCTIVE ETHNICITY/LANGUAGE/CULTURE/CUSTOMS) but rather their “PERCEIVED IDENTITY”(according to RACIST notions).
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It’s always been my opinion that Tiger Woods was just a confused guy. But with the scandal that happened a couple of years ago, Made him realize that he was a black man in America.
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As a biracial (East Asian/White) person, I agree that it is not always to do with internalised racism. Yes, this can certainly exist and I believe I suffered from it myself when I was very young. It’s tough not to when you’re growing up among 90% White people. Yet, White people are not the only ones who can affect us. Bulanik is right in that the half White bi/multiracial people have privilege over those who are less White, or whose parents are both (mixed) POC. Despite most White people defining me as 100% EAsian, I’m sure I would have had an even harder time if my mother was not White.
I remember also having 100% EAsian groups trying to `claim’ me, but I still felt the exclusion within the group. Often, my experiences of racism were silenced because, since I am half White, it could never match up to their experiences. Even though they wanted me in their group, I was never really `one of them’. I have also felt that I am not `allowed’ to define myself. Only others are allowed to do that. Sometimes people even argued with me if I stated my identity!
There have also been other groups I have wished to join, but chose not to because I discovered the hostility towards the bi/multiracial people was very strong. We were truly hated by these groups and seen as part of the problem. As far as they were concerned, we were just as bad or even worse than White racists simply for existing!
I wish I could think a little more deeply about this and comment further, but I’m quite ill at the moment. 😦
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TIger has done a lot of despicable behavior, but I can never condemn him for his racial identity. It is clear that others are more confused about him than he is about himself on this issue. I can never attack anyone for their racial identity because there is no way on earth that I can know more about that than the person himself. It would be a character flaw on my part to determine that for him.
And perceived identity is perceived by whom? If you are a multiracial person, sooner or later you will find yourself torn asunder and much of it is not from white people. Growing up you ask yourself, “How can I achieve a monoracial identity?” without having to despise the parts of your identity that are keeping you from getting there. For those that can pass, if not fully, then at least for the key social purposes, then they may try to do that (and simply release the *other* identities until they can more or less ignore them). Or, they might meet others in a similar situation and form their own group like “Eurasians” in Singapore (which functions as its own “monoracial” race label, as marriage between Eurasians and any other Asian or with Caucasians are classified as interracial there). Or for many, they just might remain marginal. Anyone who maintains a racial identity that is not recognized by society will continue to be persecuted for that identity.
The USA will continue to coin a lot of terms to describe people, and maybe Tiger will fit into one of those new categories (well, he did invent a term to describe himself). Even then, it doesn’t mean that he can identify with any of those new terms that other people invent. The term Hapa spread from Hawaii to the West Coast in the 1980s to deal with the phenomenon there, but it doesn’t mean that people suddenly categorized as that will instantly identify with it — there is no set of social institutions and cultural legacy to make that an instant ethnic group, so in the beginning, it can only start as a political movement. One result of the Hapa movement was the move by the Census Bureau to remove the “Tick the Box” nature or racial reporting.
And Obama may indeed be black, but he is not black simply because he had been perceived as such by some people. He made a conscious decision to be black. He wanted to be more rooted in his social identity and then performed behaviors to strengthen that objective. Most “monoracials” (and this means people who identify as such, not necessary their actual racial background) did not have to make a conscious decision about that. There are a few exceptions, and even this blog pointed some out. (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/05/13/sandra-laing-a-black-girl-born-to-white-parents/)
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@Iris
You have said quite a bit already. 🙂
45 years have passed since the Loving decision; one out of 6 births in certain metropolitan areas are multiracials; yes there is still strong force to suppress multiraciality and its expression. I guess if it continues, something’s gotta give.
and remember …
despite how those people treated you, it is not because you have a character flaw!
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“! Often, my experiences of racism were silenced because, since I am half White, it could never match up to their experiences. Even though they wanted me in their group, I was never really `one of them’. I have also felt that I am not `allowed’ to define myself. Only others are allowed to do that. Sometimes people even argued with me if I stated my identity!”
EXACTLY!,
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Found the post on Anatole Broyard, an example of an individual who grew up during Jim Crow. He made a conscious decision to select to be Negro when he was young. Later, he changed it be white. In light of the choices available to him, he did what he thought he needed to do. Then there were only single monoracial labels then.
I guess he was labelled black in the post for illustration purposes. I would say that he was primarily a mixture of African and European ancestry who identified primarily as Negro in his youth, and as white for most of his adult life.
I wonder what he would have done had he been born in 1970 or 1980 instead of 1920.
But one thing has not changed, and Abagond does hit the nail here.
Either way, there was a big cost.
In the 1940s, he did not have the choice to label himself “Louisiana creole” or some other label that might better represent him. He chose a label that he thought he could get away with and not be attacked for it by those who identify as monoracial. What choices would he have in 2012? But apparently, even in 2012, the need to suppress and deny multiraciality is still with us.
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I have had a direct personal conversation with Tiger’s mother (my Aunt and she were coworkers on a US military installation in Thailand in the late 1960s) but I have not had the chance to talk to Tiger himself. I don’t know exactly how he thinks. But I don’t think his mother saw him as a sell-out per se.
But white people have made him rich. Maybe he felt he had to engage in some sell-out behavior to make his millions — not too unlike what Anatole Broyard felt he had to do. I would not be surprised if both blacks and Asians were not kind to him growing up (not to mention whites). But unlike Mr. Broyard, I have never seen him deny his parents to make a living.
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I must say that in this land, as a black man, it’s hard as hell to let go of the internalized racism. It’s everywhere trying to float into your head and seep into your blood hoping you turn to the white side. It’s an internal struggle that could last an entire lifetime.
To me anyone, mixed-race, POC or white who accepts whiteness is part of the problem. On that note if white people support it, then those white people are the problem, and I blame them like I blame anyone who thinks whiteness is a slice of freakin’ heaven.
I understand that some people were raised that way, but why is that considered, more or less, the only way to raise others? Many of us have adopted Eurocentric lifestyles and customs as the norm without even knowing it. It’s to the point where we embrace it and see nothing wrong with it even when it costs us our humanity.
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It is regrettable that we used Tiger Woods as the poster boy for this topic as I think the topic isn’t about Tiger Woods. Yet he has been chosen as an object of vilification for a phenomenon that actually lies within ourselves.
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I haven’t been reading the blog as much as I should do but of late I have noticed one thing: Jefe has some vendetta against abagond.
Abagond isn’t perfect, no one is but I do think he presents the most balanced view of any blogger I have ever come across on this subject. White bloggers straight out dismiss the question of any serious racism on an institutional level or as a permanent feature of society, however, sometimes they latch onto it when it suits them. Some black bloggers are straight out anti-white. Abagond tries the greatest to find a balance and that is why I think his blog is as popular as it is.
The question of multi-racialism or bi-racialism is a tough one to deal with and anyone will find it hard to talk about it. Why? Because biracial people don’t really belong to any one specific race but aren’t a race of their own. Sometimes they identify with one and sometimes with the other. It is tough and it isn’t easy for other people who belong to one race to deal with it. White people might make biracial people adopt the mentality that race is not an issue thus make them ignore the reality of darker skinned people, black people might find it hard to relate to biracial people since they aren’t fully black and thus their experiences are not identical. Biracial people are just a group on there own in terms of how they experience society – it is a unique position to be in.
But in conclusion, I feel all of a sudden a witch-hunt for abagond if going on. He hasn’t done anything wrong and I believe as a blogger or writer you evolve over time so in his earlier works he might have written some stuff that if he were to write about them now, he would do it differently.
I understand that some of this criticism might be appropriate and a way for abagond to examine his views and how he expresses himself but I think people should keep in mind not to turn it into some kind of excuse to hurt him and deter him from writing.
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Also in my view, Bulanik’s name wasn’t mentioned in the original post not because abagond is like super-annoyed at her or anything like that but simply because he wanted to use her previous comments as a building block for a new post and so kept her anonymous. The issue in my view is not bulanik but the subject matter and thus I think he didn’t feel any reason to mention her name which will give the impression he was picking on her or had some issue with her.
However, clearly bulanik took great offense and so did jefe who took it as an excuse to continue his crusade.
My question to bulanik, under what conditions would you have not taken offense? If he mentioned your name, am sure you would still pretty much have found that unbecoming, if he had just referred to you as a “commentator” am sure you would have also found that displeasing. The main point being, you would have taken offense regardless.
But from my view, reading this post and what abagond is trying to say, I don’t think the issue is you, I think the issue is the subject matter.
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@ Bulanik
“The commenter, the “she” that Abagond is referring to is “Bulanik”.
Why would you start your very first comment with that sentence?
Then you go on in your second post to state:
“Other commenters and myself (aka “she”, LOL) felt that because any guidance to children about racism was overly centred on white people and white supremacy.”
Clearly the fact that abagond is referring to you has annoyed you otherwise why would you keep bringing it up all the time?
The vendetta here is that there is a sustained pressure on abagond specifically from you and jefe, I don’t see any other person doing it in a sustained manner. Post after post after post where you are both tag-teaming him.
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If race is a social construct, then mixed races don’t exist, right? From everything I’ve read and witnessed about race/racism, it’s simply a tool for people classified as white to hold power and prestige they use to mistreat people. I know a lot of mixed-race individuals tend to be offended by being categorized as “black”, but you’re either white or non-white to the whites who practice racism. Has anyone seen Obama get half-beaten for being “half black”? No. The white people who are against him want absolutely nothing to do with him.
With that in consideration, I think we need to ask ourselves WHY we need to be members of races. Should we mistreat people based on foot size, eye shape, or elbow length? People of color should stop the squabbling and fight for a just system that eradicates this worldwide problem. What are your thoughts?
Great post, Abagond.
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I come from a long line of hillbillies and that is just what they do. 😛
😛
Seriously, I did take the time to read over 1000 posts on this blog and have praised the blogger much more often than not. It is just that I saw a persistent blind spot consistent over dozens of the posts, and just wanted to mention it. I am keen to understand why there is so much hostility toward multiracial, esp. how they decide to define themselves. I didn’t know that anyone would chime in.
At university (near Boston) I had this “black” schoolmate who apparently felt somewhat uncomfortable around the black students on campus, but I wasn’t sure why. She was not a very dark black student (more brown than black), but looked somewhere just over 50%, or somewhere in-between Obama and his girls and wore her hair in an Afro style. She tended to hang around her roommate’s friends who were mostly Asian (her roommate was from HK). But when she came to visit her brother in DC (my hometown), I went to meet up with her and picked her up at her brother’s house. and WOW, her brother was very very fair (I mean pinkish fair), with brown wavy hair, blue eyes and acted and talked just like a white person. He had some very slight African features, but I think he could definitely pass as white (and not just an “honorary” white) and he seemed to be doing just that. He was entertaining a large group of friends at home, all of whom were white. I was thinking …., I wondered if his sister embarrassed him by being there.
I think that the explanation is that both of her parents were light-skinned blacks, and socialized with a variety of people, both white and black, but she somehow looked more black than her parents and he looked considerable more white.
I saw a lot of families like that growing up.
But was he a sell-out? Was SHE a sell-out?
I would not be in a position to hazard a guess on that. I accept that they all have the right to define themselves as they wish.
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You apparently have not been following this blog very much. If you had been, you would have realized that this has NOT been happening. Most of the comments in the past have been positive and in praise of the blogger, esp. for his insight and ability to describe some of the issues in a well-worded manner.
In fact, I think the treatment in the current thread is generally positive too.
Just here and there, there were a couple of blind spots and I felt OUCH. The current one came from “What to teach your children about racism” and I agreed with what he said, except that he left out some things that might be helpful. Much of the talk should be about white people and the white privilege power system, but not all of it is about white people.
I see it as similar to my comment about Korean adoptees. He mentioned 2 things that could be taught to them to help them adjust to US society and I mentioned a 3rd. After that, a couple of posters chimed in and agreed. Nothing more than that.
But, if the blogger made comments (or even a new post) reiterating the 2 original points, ignoring the 3rd one again even though some commenters had agreed that the 3rd point might be just as, or even more important than the first 2, then we have to ask ourselves, is he blind, or is he purposely ignoring point 3? Actually — one still can’t be sure.
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I wonder what is so unique about race in terms of identity. The identity dynamic, from observation and personal experience, appears to be “fractal”, as there seems to be a general pattern which repeats at different “levels of magnification”.
In predominantly mono-racial areas, people tend to identify with their ethnicity. In mono-ethnic areas, people tend to identify with their tribe / region. In mono-tribal areas, people tend to identify with their family / clan.
At these different levels, children of mixed parentage appear to face similar issues and challenges regarding identity and acceptance.
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@ Jefe,
You are only a sell-out when you adopt whiteness as an ideology. That is the idea of superiority based on race. That is believing the stereotypes and not understanding the dynamics of society i.e. we don’t live in a post-racial world.
Sure you can define yourself however you want, but if you define yourself in such a way that your world-view justifies racism then I think there is a problem. And that doesn’t only include the overt right-wing sort of racism but even the most subtle hard to detect left wing sort which is camouflaged to appear what it is not.
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@ Bulanik,
You seem to be hang up on my use of the word vendetta. I simply mean something sustained to the extent where you don’t give the person in question a chance to catch their breath. No blood feud, no inter generational conflict.
I will read the thread you mentioned that started all this but jefe told me all I needed to know. He saw a blind spot and took it upon himself to bring it to the foreground.
Another point, I notice you are very sly with how you use words. I don’t know if this is deliberate or not but reading between the lines, one can infer quite a lot which is what I assume you are going for whilst at the same time providing you with enough cover to say “I didn’t explicitly say that”.
Neuroscience shows that we have minds that “Fill in the Gaps”. That means you don’t have to say something explicitly for someone else to get the message.
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Bulanik,
I think you are passionate about this subject and it shows.
I applaud you for bringing it up….I personally try to stay away from it because as a multi-racial woman, I try to minimize my exposure to having to deal with this topic on the blogs because it’s aggravating…
In real life, I typically try not to talk about it either because I’ve learned that my point of view on issues that affect black/brown people are not considered “valid” by some black people because their perception of me changes if I don’t label myself as “black” only… as if I can’t understand or I think I’m different/better than…(this is the problem afro-Latinos face)
I typically have to point out that my experiences with whites are similar because people of colour face the same prejudices that black people experience when dealing with white society…we’ve got that one thing in common…white people like to look down on anyone they consider to be “not white” …once I show solidarity…all is well because then everyone realizes where I stand.
Like I said before, I felt very disappointed with the black Americans who I dealt with when I first came to US because I didn’t expect the hostility and I was very surprised by it…I wasn’t surprised by the white Americans because I was warned about them and their prejudice, it was expected.
In the US, everyone expects mixed-race people to know their roles–which is “if you have one drop of African blood in your veins” then you need to show loyalty to black people and verbally say “I am black”..period, that’s it..
All is well in the world as long as you accept your blackness and disregard your “other-ness” … anything less and you are a “sell-out”
no disclaimers allowed by you (the mixed person) because according to black America– “black people are all mixed anyway, you’re not special”
but then the coin is flipped and I become “different” when hair / phenotype issues come into play (colourism is a b’tch) — so since I am not special just because I am mixed, then stop touching my hair or asking me if my hair is “real” or comparing my features to your grandmother who has white or Indian in her—
being mixed-race means dealing with other peoples concepts of “race” and their definition about who you are.
I love the litmus test that black Americans sometimes throw out to show reality/clarity to mix-raced people: “The KKK would lynch you too because to them, you are still a ni’ger” .. wow, so the standards of what it means to be black, mixed-race, or any so-called “race” depends on racist whites?
because white peoples opinions about race are the only opinions/ definitions that count, so therefore, all POC have to live with white society’s racial designation and classifications because white people “said so” and we all (black/brown) have to go along with it…
As someone stated, the confusion is based on the country and its society’s views on race and how much these concepts are internalized — we’ve all been tainted by the European standards of race and beauty.
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@ Linda,
I actually “get it” now. Thanks for showing me a blind spot that I didn’t even know existed. Internalize racism is a B*tch! Peace, continuing to learn..hence my name. 😀
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@ Bulanik,
I hear you.
Truce? Not that we were at war to begin with.
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Thanks Linda for putting another spin on it. Maybe more people will see the light.
But you said that you try not to talk about it or bring it up — do you feel suppressed?
Just curious if you feel that the talk that parents should have with their kids about racism in the US could include, in addition to how the white power structure in society works, about how the police are, about how to behave when you are dealing with people with white privilege mindsets, that a talk regarding how you might approach and deal with people who do not fit exactly in the white / black category or who have an identity that is different from what you understand.
something like
– you might be inclined to define them, but let them define themselves
– they may define themselves in a way that is different from how you define them, or different from something that you can understand;
– don’t get hostile if their definition of themselves is different from yours; try to understand it;
– don’t get hostile if their definition of you is different from how you define yourself. try to understand it and try to explain yours to them;
– their definition of themselves is at least as valid, if not more valid than how you want to define them; they know more about their own personal heritage and experience then you could possibly know.
– they actually may have trouble defining themselves exactly; resist the temptation to do it for them
– they may change their definition over time
and finally, the talk about racism in the USA must be about white racism (even colour-blind racism) and white privilege, but it is not just about whites. We all affect how the race relations dynamic works; we are not just at the receiving end of the system. There may be new situations that we encounter that this race talk did not include. And society is changing all the time. We may have to learn and relearn as we go along.
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“Bulanik,
The evidence is here.
The pressure is there to be silent, fall in line, and know my place, our place, in a blog-environment like this. Is the outside world any different?”
Linda says,
Nope, it’s not…so “stop de nize” and get back in line, like a good soldier 🙂
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I have a question:
How do you not alienate biracial kids whilst fighting white supremacy?
On racism and the practise of racism, a quote that Kushite Prince showed me:
“In America, whites have the POWER to discriminate against blacks (and other non-whites) by depriving them of income, promotions, jobs, housing, land, justice, and any other rights – if they choose to do so. It doesn’t matter that some whites are poorer than some blacks.
In all things and in all places in America, whites are collectively more powerful than blacks are collectively. This imbalance of (white) power creates the opportunity and the ability to practice racism against non-whites. Racism is not empty rhetoric (words) or mindless emotion. Racism is economic, political, institutional, and systematic POWER. Since whites control all the institutions and systems of power in America, only whites have the power to practice racism.”
So from the above doesn’t it follow that if we deal with the issue of white-generated racism then the issues that biracial people experience will naturally dissolve away?
In other words, aren’t we all fighting the same demon??
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This is one of those more interesting posts. It certainly has the potential to develop into one but probably not for the intended reasons of the author (Abagond)
I am not really sure what those are. As usual, from reading, there is no specific comment from the author. There is though a detailed and, I have to say, most comprehensive comment from Legion which in, my view, should be addressed rather than ignored by Abagond. Which in past histories has been predictably the case.
(note to Wilson: You would do well to read Legion’s comment)
I would also like to add my own view that when it comes to defining individual racial/ethnic identity if, for what ever reason, you fail to do this for yourself. Then you should not be surprised or object if others attempt do it for you. This is something we all have eventually to come to terms with and learn
This is based on the premise that we all live in a “white supremacist society” which has already been set up and defined – overtly and covertly. This means we all have the choice of:
(1) Accepting and acknowledging this as a part of our reality. Then we can choose to define our racial/ethnic identity within or outside of this. OR…
(2) Disregarding or denying this is a part of our reality. Then we can choose to define our racial/ethnic identity irrespectively in any way we see fit.
It doesn’t really matter which choice we opt for. Because, as I have already pointed out, if we do neither Then you should not be surprised or object if others attempt do this for you.
This post and its proceeding comments offers the clearest illustration of this in action….
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Abagond
If a black man or woman is the parent of a mixed-race child, they should identify the child as such. What’s the point of being in a biracial relationship and undercutting the non-black parent? If they want a black child, they should have slept with a black person…Ditto! Once a mulatto reaches adulthood, It’s Their Call…Bottomline!
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I think the problem here is the very key to the whole racism in USA and even outside of it. It is the very idea of “racial purity”, the assumption that there is “pure black” somewhere to which all people of color must identify to. Which is as much nonesense as “pure white” concept. BUT both stem from the same source: racism. It is the corner stone, the very foundation of racism to believe that there are pure racial entities which are the “true” forms of human exisitence and something to belong to. All of that is a fantasy. There is only one human race on the planet. Period.
When reading many, not all, american black writers and thinkers, what strikes weird to me, as an outsider, that they take so many ideas directly from the opposite. Such an idea is the demand for racial purity. The demand to identify to “pure blackness”. And while I understand this concept and where it comes from, it is sometimes weird that the same people are claiming to be anti-racists and yet they promote this racist idea, the very same idea that the white racists do. Like I said, I get where it comes from, but it seems to be a bit strange.
The fact is that there are no “pure blacks” anymore than there are “pure whites”. There are those who believe so and who believe in ideas constructed around that very idea, but biologucally it is pure nonesense. Majority of the human population as we speak are mixed in one way or the other and the more so, the better. And also that will be even more so in the future. Perhaps someday in the future there will be so many mixed people that the whole idea of race will be exposed as what it is: ridicilous dangerous vehicle to control people, divide them, push them against each other, while the ones who benefit from this laugh on their way to the bank.
Personally I am happy to see anyone who refuses to be cathegorised by racist standards, who refuses to be IN the system of racial profiling. I think the more the better. These people are chipping away the very foundation of racism simply being who they are. And the ones outside claiming them to this or that race, are the ones who do not see their own racism. Be they blacks or whites.
But I assume this whole issue rises from the history of ameriucan racism and its demand of racial identity, its claim that without racial identity you are nobody and you do not belong anywhere. Or that you are, some how, a race traitor. That is very american take on this issue.
I might be wrong here but it looks sometimes that this “problem” with the “mixed” people comes from that source: american racism and its doctrines.
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@ Kwamla,
Legions comment was good. I liked the structure and how he put forward his points. Best by far.
However, I disagree with some not all of what he said. For example I don’t think abagond is taking a dig at Bulanik, I don’t understand the criticism of the 500 word limit abagond imposes on himself – i thought it was just to improve readability, I don’t agree with his description of Tiger Woods and I find his criticism of abagond’s socio-politic views to be out of place and speculative since they can apply to absolutely anyone and in fact it does apply to EVERYONE.
“The way you view the world seems totally right to you because you get some kind of pay off for your view and because the longer we stick to something, the more real it becomes; but none of that proves that your socio-political view of life is correct. ”
This applies to everyone, doesn’t it? Otherwise, you would just change how you viewed the world? No? How do you know if your socio-political view of life is correct? When others agree with you? What’s correct, left or right??
But yeah, it was excellent.
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“Jefe
But you said that you try not to talk about it or bring it up — do you feel suppressed?”
Linda says,
No, I don’t feel suppressed…I just don’t like dealing with the nonsense.
Everyone thinks their version of “reality” is the correct one and being that I have a low threshold for what I consider “nonsense”, I try to stay away from topics that I know will piss me off.
I don’t let people define me…if asked, I say I am “brown” or “mixed-race”…I’ve never felt the need to conform to fit in — I’ve always loved and accepted myself because I grew up in a country that allowed me to be “who I am” without people trying to tell me “who I should be”..
I found that this is not the case in the USA
when I was younger, it bothered me because I was/am proud of my multiracial, Caribbean heritage and I didn’t appreciate people trying to fit me into their neat little boxes because they thought “they were right” and I was wrong….
I found myself in situations where I felt the need to defend myself and who I was as a “black” or “brown” woman (my identity changed depending on the country I was in) … I didn’t like to back down, so an argument typically turned into a slanging match…
but as I got older, I realized that people are products of their environment and their views aren’t going to change anytime soon —
we’ve all been silently/subconsciously indoctrinated from birth and to deny our upbringing, is to admit that our parents, elders, and our society in general were wrong—
most people believe what they’ve been taught/raised to value is the “truth” — most people are not that “open-minded” on subjects that their society considers “taboo”
Nowadays, people can call me black, brown, red, yellow.. whatever..I don’t care…they can even call me “hey you”…I’m fine with it, as long as they don’t mess with my children or my money!
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Wow! This has really started something. I’m English I live in England my father was Nigerian my mother is white English, so I am of mixed race( I am brown ) it’s never occured to me (or even bothered me) to define myself, maybe over here things are not as bad as in the U.S. racism exists but it.s not as deep as people experience over there (or at least that’s been my experience and i’m 63 yrs old). I consider myself as black (forget the in-betweens) that’s the way it is here. It seems that you are creating problems defining people as multi-racial or bi-racial etc; it sounds a bit like South Africa under aparthied, i’ve got seven kids all grown up and they have their own children (nine grandchildren) all but two of my kids can pass for white but they all see themselves as black and are proud to do so, my grandchildren can all pass for white but none of them hide from their black roots. It seems a shame when you can’t be who you are, there is a problem when you label people you create discrimination and that seems to be happening in America. Racism is a terrible thing (but it exists) and you are in danger of people of colour dicriminating against other people of colour.
Why not come and live here we have our problems but things are not so bad.
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Abagond has said that he isnt perfect and admitted to having his views affected by being raised in the racist USA
The atitudes towards mixed “race” people is what should be under scrutiny, not Abagond
I really think he puts up his ideas, but, wants the commentaries and diologue to be an important part of it too…that means what everyone sais carries its own weight also
There have been attitudes and attacks on mixed “race” people much worse than him, and these need to be addressed more than just Abagond
Abagond, thanks for the opotunity to diologue on this
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I think many people commenting are forgetting that people labeling you is based on a social problem called RACISM. Of course nobody wants to be forcibly labeled by others, but just think of all the people of color throughout history who have been subject to outright violence, denial to good educations, and equal institutions based on labels. Really try to think beyond yourself and see these labels as part of the socially-based context that’s it’s really part of.
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Are’nt you perpetuating racism by giving labels to people of colour by people of colour? This just makes everybody a racist.
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Where’s your evidence that my use of the term “people of color” caused me to perpetuate racism in: education, law, politics, sex, religion, war, and labor? It’s my assumption that racism is backed up by power.
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@ Legion
1. I took out Bulanik’s name from the post because most people reading it will have no idea who Bulanik is and I did not want to make this post seem too much of an inside thing that would make prospective readers tune out.
2. This post grew out of a comment that I wrote to Bulanik, so yes, it wound up being more of a mish mash than I would like. The title I added near the end, which is a bad practice that also leads to mish-mashy posts. On the other hand it does make a point that mixed-race commenters miss over and over again on this blog, so by that measure alone it was worth making into a post.
3. I asked Jefe and Bulanik to write a post. They did not want to. I can understand that, but that meant it fell to me to write one. Otherwise the discussion would continue to range across two or more threads and lack focus.
4. I wrote this post to put a stake in the ground to see how Jefe and Bulanik and others would respond. Because the way it was going it was not getting anywhere, at least not from my point of view. Jefe, for example, kept saying stuff like “you do it all the time” without saying what “it” was other than some kind of blind spot. And if I do not know what “it” was, then I am a lost cause. That is not a discussion that is going to lead anywhere. Bulanik gave a concrete example (my Tiger Woods post), so I started from there.
5. My aim is not to write for the choir. If I wanted that, my comment policy would be far stricter.
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@ Abagond,
I’ve actually just written a response to Bulanik and Jefe on these very same issues they have repeatedly been bringing to your attention which Legion has comprehensively outline in this post. Which you appear to have, in my view, skipped over and marginalised, as usual, in your response.
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@ Legion
Tiger Woods, Anatole Broyard, etc, I use as examples of what it is I am talking about so that people can understand what I mean. Everyone knows I am not God who can see into their souls and know their every motive and circumstance and can truly judge them. Even if I am wrong about them it is besides the point: it is their apparent behaviour that I am talking about, not they themselves. Peola arguably did not know better because of her age but, again, it is the behaviour that is the point.
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@ Brothawolf
Well said.
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Wilson said:
That is my very point. About Tiger Woods, about certain problematic ways of defining one’s self multiracially.
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@ Peanut
Excellent point.
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Can we have concrete examples of what abagond is missing please?
So far this is what I have gathered:
1. Abagond should stop asking people to write guest posts.
2. Abagond should acknowledge the contribution of both Bulanik and Jefe.
3. Abagond is blind to something: it is still somewhat of a mystery what this thing is.
4. Abagond writes posts that don’t say anything: According to Kwamla.
5. Abagond should engage more with commentators on the comment section when they “call” him out.
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Bulanik please show me where on the video Ellen disrespects Psy.. I watched it and I can’t see it.. What minute/second did it happen?
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@ Bulanik,
0:50 and 1:55
To me it appears Ellen was more interested in the song and the actual dance than the person himself. I don’t know if she was actually disrespectful.. Depends how you see it.
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@ Bulanik,
I understand what you are saying, I just can’t see it in that video.
I’ll think about it. Can I ask you a question? Where in the world are you from? I am thinking what you are seeing is down to culture and what you expect in your culture rather than actual in your face disrespect.
But I get it, Ellen is dangerous, you just never know what she is thinking. Such an actor.
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@ Bulanik,
“Is there a clue in that, right there?”
May be. She definitely didn’t follow the proper etiquette. I don’t know if it is because Psy is asian. I think she was uhmm a bit too “excited” that she kind of forgot.
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@wilson
I’ll try to respond.
1. No, I offered to write a guest post in the past and would consider in the future too.
2. This doesn’t matter to me that much. I think he thinks in his mind that the information he lifts from others is simply common knowledge that someone else helped to summarize (I recall the post about Sundown towns). But, if he lifts something almost verbatim from someone else, it might be considered etiquette to acknowledge that.
3. Apparently, despite talking about it over and over again, it is still a mystery, so, for me it’s like this
in “What to Tell your children about racism” I agreed that the talk needs to include information about the police, how to behave around white people, and how the whole system of white privilege works, the problem with colour-blind racism when dealing with whites and how it could lead to internalized racism, etc. In fact, when the Treyvon Martin incident was front page, all the news and talk shows discussed the race talk that black parents need to do with their children, but which white parents don’t (or some of them use the colour blind approach which is not fully relevant to most black kids).
But, what was missing was that . . .. well, it isn’t just all about whites. Their children are also part of the racism dynamic and also need to learn how to treat other people and be conscious of imposing their racist attitudes on them (esp. if it leads to discrimination or some kind of very prejudiced behavior). Even the act of applying a racial label to someone could invoke some very racist behavior. All of us need to learn how to respect others’ racial identities.
An example (and just one example) was about how people in the USA, including blacks, deny the expression or existence of multiraciality – a multiracial society and multi-racial people. They are often persecuted for how they choose to express it. For some, claiming that someone is a sell-out and kissing up to whites is simply calling it as they see it. But, if one would just consider looking at it at from another angle, it is also a form of persecution. In my personal experience, every single decision about how I decide to express my culture, heritage, or even people I choose to associate with seems to draw out those people who will persecute me for it. I am the persistent, non-ending sell-out. 😦 (I have thousands of examples).
4. Nah, Abagond says a lot about many things. That is why I read about him.
5. Sometimes he does engage, but he has time constraints too (or maybe he is not sure how to proceed sometimes). I think it is better to consider the following that Bulanik posted in another thread
“I hope Abagond doesn’t underestimates his readership; there are many people out there who have a wide range of intellectual and creative interests, who don’t limit themselves to a narrow range (due to their ethnic background, etc.).”
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It seems to me that the obsession of “race” is an american pastime.
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@ Jefe,
I take back what I said about you yesterday.
Regarding no.3, Personally I’d love to read more about it elaborated with more examples like how abagond has elaborated on white black racism with his creative posts in such a way that it makes it glaringly obvious. I don’t deny what you are saying but I don’t know how one can fight white supremacy and not alienate multiracial people. That’s a tough one.
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@Wilson
Do you want a list of all the times I have done it so far? I have presented the perspective under dozens of different posts already. It would take too long to research them all.
I can recall a few
– Black Father, White Mother and White Father, Black Mother
Abagond mentioned that he only knew a couple of them were biracial. The vast majority he thought were either black or white.
I mentioned that for someone who was so race conscious, that he would simply assign monoracial labels to people was a bit short-sighted. I wondered if he noticed what he was doing, but I think it was just natural, and as it was natural, it was the reasonable thing to do.
But, if any of them seem to engaging with their white or European background, then they are criticized for it – like they are either a sell-out or rented negro or something. I don’t think that is completely fair.
– Ann Curry – first he thought she was one of the most beautiful white women, then after learning her mother was ethnic Japanese, she suddenly became one of the most beautiful East Asian woman. She is the same person, why did her racial label suddenly get changed?
– After someone noted that the post on the most Beautiful East Asian Women, most were Eurasian, and many were part SE Asian, not East Asian, and in no cases could they be part black (because I guess, in that case, they would have to be categorized as black). Many posters asked about this and there was no real explanation about it. Several part Asian posters mentioned that asking them to represent a SINGLE race would make them feel uncomfortable. Others mentioned that in Asia, they might not be considered to be Asian, etc.
This commentary did not blip on the radar.
On the other hand, the most gorgeous East Asian men included the option to be part black.
Is Will Demps a gorgeous black man or Asian man? both? neither? depends?
And finally, alienating multiracial people is not a white supremacy thing. Is the case of Lou Jing a white supremacy thing? After growing up in the USA and living overseas, I don’t think the USA is unique because of the white supremacy situation. They are alienated all over the place. I really really really don’t think it is all about white supremacy.
What is unique about the USA is the scale of the situation. What needs to be done in the USA is to put race right back on the front page of national debate. Pretending like it does not exist does not make it go away. It only becomes front page when something like Treyvon Martin happens, then it becomes quiet again.
Have you been to Hawaii?
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I think there’s a bigger point that everyone’s missing. Why a lot of people exclude others and form groups based on skin color and ethnicity. It’s just not right. Everyone just wants to be loved for being themselves
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People form groups because they want to associate with other people. It does not have to be based on skin colour.
I like to hang out with polyglots. Now what do we do if a monolingual wants to join (or just happens to be there)? Act monolingual around them, or encourage them to become polyglots also? How would it work?
There is a whole group of people that I cannot communicate effectively with because I do not know sign language. I want to love them for being themselves and I want them to love me, but how do we do it?
So, why has skin colour become one of the parameters?
I can understand ethnicity – people who share a heritage, a language, traditions, a religion — it is much easier to associate at some basic level. People who share an ethnicity often share ancestry as well, which means they may be racially similar, but not always.
People form different economic classes too.
In the USA, since skin colour was used historically to separate people into groupsk this caused them to associate separately causing different ethnicities to branch out. It happens everywhere for various reasons, but skin colour was a selected parameter in the USA (for reasons explained thoroughly elsewhere).
The secret is to learn how to allow everyone to participate equitably in society.
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Many people on this thread are not understanding what white supremacy is. The “multiracial team” is not understanding that “black people” do not have the power to label. They also do not understand that their own labeling doesn’t mean much either in the system of white supremacy. Bulanik et. al.- do you really think “black people” label themselves? These labels were created by and for no one else (in a positive way)other than powerful whites, and to a lesser extent whites in general,in service to white supremacy.
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“The “multiracial team” is not understanding that “black people” do not have the power to label. ”
Sorry, this is simply wrong. I think I know the US quite well and grew up in or next to black neighborhoods. This is just simply wrong.
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They do just as much labelling as anyone else. i have seen it literally millions of times.
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Are the labels created by Black people used on the Census created by the federal government?
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Jefe, do you think black people in the USA chose to be labeled as such? The vast majority of blacks in the western hemisphere didn’t even choose to come here until recent years.
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Just for the record, I am not trying to attack anyone. I called out Bulanik and others but I want it to be clear that I always enjoy reading posts by she and jefe among others. Truly smart and well researched comments. However, in this post, I think the issue needs to be contextualized properly. The context is that of living in a white supremacist dominated world. Individuals can say what they want but only white supremacists, in the form of governments and other institutions, and the systems in service to them have to power to impose things on others. Also, I don’t believe only white supremacists have power but they are the dominant poitical and military force on earth. ( White supremacist roughly equals the western world here)
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No one said multiracial people felt anything less. In fact historically they felt things the same because they were considered inferior as well. When multiracials were allowed to be labelled differently their treatment MIGHT have conditionally improved slightly, think melungians (however it is spelled).
Also, in my experience, blacks are among the most ignorant about white supremacy.
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Isn’t one of the issues here that identifying as ‘black’ in the US means ‘buying the whole package’, both showing solidarity to a race (a very arbitrary concept) and adopting African-American culture? Many biracial people may feel that black US culture is quite foreign to them, especially if they grew up around mainly non-black people. This could also be an issue for African immigrants to the US. They are just as (probably even more) black than African-Americans, but do not have that much in common with them.
So biracials may feel torn between being looked at as ‘black’ by society but not being a part of the traditional concept of ‘blackness’ in the US.
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@Sam
Black people who push the idea of “Mulattoness” don’t love black people. Black is bad in their eyes, but, mixed-race is a suitable replacement. They want to be with people of other races, but, want their mixed children to be accepted as black…That’s Bull****! This nonsense can’t continue. The swirl crowd can hate me all they want, they know they’re pushing a lie on black people. I want them to be honest and stop hiding behind their children.
Tyrone
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The idea of “race” as I know it is really an “either or” situation, and creates a castes system. How does one identify with being multiracial given the origins and purpose of race? Does the resentment stem because they’re the product of people who “broke the rules”?
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ugh that last sentence was botched, but I think I got my point across 🙂
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@ Bulanik
Who came up with all those racial classifications on the Census? Black people?
Sorry about the lack of clarity in my initial question.
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When I was in UK and living in Europe, I had no problems saying I was “black” or “mixed” because as a mixed-race person living in majority white countries, the white population basically views anyone who is not white European as “dark”…typically, I just said I was Jamaican or West Indian–case closed.
In my opinion, because the white British are so prejudice to non-whites, there is a feeling of solidarity between mixed-race and black people…but this was not forced by the government, it was a natural reaction because we all faced the same common prejudice in society. I did not feel pressure to choose a definitive “label” by the black British/Caribbean community in UK; …that was my experience.
For me, black people in UK or Europe don’t automatically expect a mixed-race person to say they are “black”—mixed-race people can say they are “mixed” and no one will blink an eye, label them as “sell-outs”, or feel they are disloyal to the black community — unlike the USA
Like I said, this topic is like napalm because (especially) in US, because of the history of the country, labels being forced by the government and people being segregated by race…I totally understand the mindset of why race is such a touchy and deep subject in this country
but there is pressure from the black American community and people are very sensitive to mixed-race people showing any kind of solidarity with/to their other racial heritage
Even now, when there is no more “forced” government labeling, there is still a feeling that the mixed-race person is not being loyal to the black community if they choose to not call themselves “black” or if they push up their mixtures/ other heritage — they are seen as “trying to not be black” (Lala Vasquez Anthony)
I don’t think it’s as bad as it used to be but there is still resentment if mixed-race people don’t toe-the-line and state that they are “black” … any mention of your other “races” or ethnicities will cause problems and hurt feelings.
Case in point: Melanie Fiona, a singer popular in US, who is Guyanese and multi-racial. She made the comment
“I’m mixed – my mom is Black and Portuguese and my dad is Indian so I have a good mix for growth.” — she was asked (What’s the secret to her gorgeous long hair?)
Lord have mercy, who told her to say that! The responses were varied, from support to some people seeming to be offended.
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2012/10/melanie-fiona-sparks-backlash-with-comments-on-mixed-heritage-and-hair-growth/
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“Are the labels created by Black people used on the Census created by the federal government?”
I am not talking about those labels, but any kind of label.
But, yes actually, in part. It was due to activism on the part of many people, mostly multi-racials, but also others, to allow people to tick more than one box. It was not really white people that pushed that.
Is Coloured a label still allowed on the US census forms.
I get your meaning, but labels are not just those on the census forms.
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@Legion
A bit long, a bit rant, but thanks.
Yeah, I have been accross SE Asia, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Cambodia, Vietnam. I agree that Tiger could definitely pass as someone from SE Asia. If he were in Melbourne, Australia (which has a large migrant population from SE Asia, but not many people of Sub-saharan African descent), I think people would never even think he was black (even considering that “black” there refers mostly to people with Aboriginal background).
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“Abagond, I think you are too quick to resort to the “this person is a self hating black” argument. You did it on the BWE thread and you’ve done it with Tiger Woods.”
Yes! Black Americans (because I don’t see this in my family-by-blood or marriage who are African) have an obsession with chaining biracial (black/white) individuals to them. It’s pathological & perverse. As a darker black, I know with 100% certainty that while they [Black Americans] demand racial loyalty, they will only return annihilation of the in-group marginalized individuals. Too light…annihilation, too dark…annihilation. You must be adamant that you are part of their group & then go sit in a corner while they constantly & consistently bombard you with their disdain for you as an inidvidual.
Only, Abagond is not Black American by birth. So, his behavior is slightly confusing.
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Biracial persons are dangerous—they always have been.
In America, they were unmistakeable evidence of the rape and coercion of Black women by White men, both under slavery and Jim Crow. Dangerous!
They were also dangerous because in many cases, they brought elements of the White Beauty standard into the Black world—just by existing. Dangerous.
Today, they get in the way of universal “Blackthink.” When someone says, “I don’t trust White people.” it’s a bit more uncomfortable when you know that you’re talking about a supposedly Black someone’s White mother or father. It’s so much easier to just think of them as Black and forget the other side of their gene pool. Put that mixedness away so that I can be more comfortable.
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@Abagond, Temple is obviously a troll.
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Yes, we are allowed to tick multiple boxes for racial categorizing on the US Census form; however, from what I recall reading, if the ‘Black / African American’ box is ticked, then that individual is still counted as being ‘Black’, regardless as to how many other boxes s/he bothered to ticked off.
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Correction:
Yes, we are allowed to tick multiple boxes for racial categorizing on the US Census form; however, from what I recall reading, if the ‘Black / African American’ box is ticked, then that individual is still counted as being ‘Black’, regardless as to how many other boxes s/he bothered to tick off.
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I think that we can see here the important element of racism right here: polarisation. Racism does separate people in various cathegories and claims that there is a “right” ja “true” place for you in society which is defined by your race. There fore it is essential that you stay in your racial place. And this, of course, leads in to endless debates about Who is what and belongs where, and demands for staying with ones own, or in that right place.
The very purpose of all this is to create division among those who are opressed. That is the idea. While blacks and others argue back and worth who is a race traitor and sell out, they stay powerless, weak and divided. When they keep on making demands on eachother based on racial cathegorisation, they forget to make demands to those who pull the strings of the whole show.
One of the most important achievements of racism historically was to divide poor whites from the poor blacks etc. Racism gave the poor whites an idea that they somehow belonged to the same “gang” as those rich white men who were calling the shots. And by siding with them, as we still see in USA, they became upholders of the very system which makes sure that they stay poor and down.
But it did not stop to there. Racism also provided endless tools to divide others in to numerous cathegories of different races, mixes, colors, shades etc. And all the while people kept on arguin amongst themselves about these things, the big whigs laughed on their way to the bank. And they still do.
What the System really abhorrs, what is the greatest nightmare they have, is that people would do away the whole race concept and see what this is all about: classes and unequality. It is all about the possibility to rule and make billions, while the majority merely survives. That is why all this talk about illegal latino immigrants is just a political boohoo. They brought those millions of illegal workers over to work for free or less than legal workers. With illegal workers the salaries can be brought down, labor unions can me eliminated etc. BUT that is why it is important for the System to keep up the talk about Browns, Blacks, Mixed, Asians, Arabs, Illegals etc.
Follow the moey and you see where all of this is coming from. You will see why it is still there. It has nothing to do with biology or psychology, but everything about the ecomony. The System needs the poor masses, cheap labor, assumed enemies with in or outside, it needs endless racial debates, racial profilings to keep people busy and focused on something else that it self. That is why racism is up held, kept on goig, fed, nurtured in USA. It keeps the people separated. Divided. That is the essential purpose. Racism takes away your own political power.
@tyrone:
I understand where your thinking comes from, but doesn’t it seem to be strange that while you say that you are anti-racist, you demand racial purity and racial segregation etc.? I do not understand how these co exist.
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It is interesting to note that this subject is so sensitive and emotional.
I would sum up the different viewpoints as follows:
(Some) biracial individuals believe that classification and self-identification as ‘black’ is limiting and implies that the individual also needs to embrace African-American solidarity and culture. This may be uncomfortable for individuals who have no strong connection to that culture.
(Some) individuals who strongly identify as ‘black’ suspect that the above-mentioned biracials, consciously or sub-consciously, validate the concept that ‘white is better’ by rejecting identification as black.
I don’t see that any of these reactions really are wrong. It is up to the individuals involved to try to navigate the world. Although there should be no reason to be judgmental in these matters.
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I tend to agree with King and Xeelee.
In my experience it is a very slippery slope. I’ve only lived in the USA. If you have a darker pigment with “good hair” one might be marginalized within the group. Think of the earlier days of Black Greek life, the various groups had distinction among them. If you were lighter than a paper bag you could join the sorority/fraternity or your hair was able to swing freely then that was a bonus too. If you are Black in the USA-descendant of people that were enslaved then one is prone to have issues with “mixed” folks. Just my take on it.
*I’m also known as mashiara4life-if I’m on my Ipad, it won’t let me switch to lifelearner*
This discussion has been really informative and interesting. Thanks Jefe and Bulanik for getting the ball rolling.
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@ Legion,
Wow, I like what I read especially on the second post.
The ideas you have mentioned about what a person is, is not all that foreign to what I have read and what we do indeed experience. I wonder if you’ve heard of the different ways?
– The 1st way being the way of the fakir. (This is the way of struggling with ones body)
– The 2nd way being the way of the monk. (This is the way of faith, the way of religious feeling, religious sacrifice)
– The 3rd way being the way of the Yogi. (This is the way of knowledge, the way of mind.)
You know why all this different ways exist? Because of what you just said…
Anyways, I don’t know if you know this but if it’s up your street, check out the 4th Way:
“The Fourth Way shows how to use one’s ordinary life—with all its uncertainty, negativity, suffering and pleasures—to come to real life. Rather than avoiding life or being magnetized or entrapped in it, one learns to consciously live one’s life fearlessly, without imagination or regret.”
That is where I read about what you described as a person, to be more specific personality:
“In 4th Way psychology, personality comprises all acquired aspects of man’s thinking and emotions. Little I’s are the building blocks of personality, programs are what the little I’s run, singly and in groups. Buffers are separate groups of little I’s, so that man can without being troubled or suffering cognitive dissonance behave in completely opposite ways in different circumstances.”
Essentially we are not a single thing but many different things that switch and change and take control of us depending on the situation. These different things are contradictory, one might like this, the other might hate that same thing e.t.c and in order for all this to exist within a person, there is what is called “buffers” i.e. think of them as things that we tell ourselves to justify our actions or excuse our behavior when we should know better.
“Repeated denial of facts may over time create a buffer. For example, buffers make it possible for one to apply entirely different principles of ethics to different groups of people.”
Programs are like patterns of behavior since these traditions hold at there base that man is a machine and as such we can’t really do anything, we just run programs depending on our social conditioning, like and dislikes etc. To become free you essentially need to de-bug yourself, know all the patterns that you run and free yourself from their control, overcome the buffers so that you stop being contradictory, and essentially see the whole process of life as a spiritual one. Before all that though they state that we live in imagination and lies and this is the first obstacle – I am sure nowadays you hear a lot of people saying “Wake Up” well this is kinda where this comes from, by default we are in a state of sleep and dreaming our way through life.
Anyways holy macaroni this stuff you are talking about is out there in a BIG WAY!
This is an interesting read:
http://www.gurdjieff.org/salzmann3.htm
They also made various movies that touch on this subject, my favourite one is Revolver:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtfNM4f2-iQ&feature=related)
To make this relevant to this specific thread, it is a good thing to challenge our views and embrace uncertainty because then we are open to absorb new information and develop as people if the facts show what we thought was wrong.
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@Gen
The concept of half-black being accepted as black was created by whitemen. All of the racial insanity that was born out of slavery was about dividing black people…House Negro/Field Negro…Black/Mulatto…Kinky Hair/Wavy Hair…Dark-Skinned/Light-Skinned, and so forth. Knowing all of this to be true, Why would we as african people hang onto a relic of slavery that was designed to make us hate ourselves? The crazy thing about all of this, is that, it’s not even about mulattos being black or not. Instead, it’s about us as black people loving ourselves first and foremost. If Halle Berry and Stacey Dash are held up as icons of black female beauty in society, how is that helping blackwomen as a whole? Whites and other non-blacks think that they provide the so-called good looks, when in reality, the beauty and overall asthetics come from the black side of the family tree. If we’re gonna truly love ourselves as a race, we need to get rid of the (ODR), the sooner the better.
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@Legion
Tiger Woods has made it crystal clear that he does not want to be a blackman, viewed as a blackman, and so forth. I’ve never understood why so many black people have wasted time and energy begging and crying for him to be a blackman, as if, real blackmen are not good enuf in and of themselves. The senseless fawning of many black people on this planet is what irks me the most. If a half-black man or woman dislikes black so much, Why would we want them in our race anyway? We have enuf self-hating black folk already on this planet, Why add to it? Insecure black people cry over those like Tiger Woods, Tony Parker, Jason Taylor, etc. We wonder why whites in the South look as black as they do, Mulattos? Passing was commonplace amongst those who were light enuf to get away with it. The bottomline…Mulattos have loyalty to their immediate families and to themselves, not black people. Denial is a killer of time and energy. As black people, we worry about the wrong things. The black population in the US has been the same since i was in middle school…12%. Today, it ranges between 12-14% give or take. Black folk have been voting for the wrong party, and thus, black manhood has been destroyed in this country. Therefore, to account for the lack of black marriages and children, well-meaning black activists and politicians lean on the biracial class to make up the difference…The One Drop Rule! If black-on-black violence was not killing us, abortion killing us, hiv/aids killing us, blackmen and blackwomen in jail killing us, the issue of biracial children identifying as black would be a non-factor…Bottomline! The Black Politcos and The Black Church are to blame for this nonsense, they’re job is to keep us voting for white liberals who seek to destroy us while smiling in our faces at the same time. Remember black people, the black population in the US has been the same for damn’ near 4 decades, Why?
Tyrone
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@Sam
Why does the black race have to destroy itself to get along with other races that are not? You say that intermarriage will solve the race problem? Why do we have to dilute ourselves as black people to achieve racial harmony on this planet? When will whites, asians, and native-americans learn to love themselves? Everybody can’t be black Sam, this is the harsh reality that others need to accept. I’m tired of other races pushing their racial baggage onto us, it’s not our problem to worry about. Sam, stop apologizing for being black? You feeling guilty for having melanin and kinky hair benefits no one on this planet…Period!
Tyrone
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Tyrone , thinking all children from rape by the master , were accepted by the master, or , granted “house Negro ” status , would be a misconception, because, you know, probably most of the mothers were left out in the cold , to care for their child on their own. Take a look at “Birth of a Nation” to see the average white view of the “mulatto”.
Im lucky to live in one of the most incredible countries in the world for examples of mixed “race”.Never mind that racism and colorism is as bad as anywhere , minus the ku klux klan style violence, but, to see the real incredible range of how mixture can play out, and , to not feel in the minority if you are mixed “race”, but see many mixed “race” people all around you, is and always has been awesome…….Im really glad I raised my son here, not that he didnt run into many issues, and, actualy, he has been discriminated more because of his bi nationalityy, but, he doesnt have to let political activism define how he has to describe himself. And, in a picture with my in laws, he, and they look as black as any family that could describe themselves “black” in the USA
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Bulanik, you asked what I believe the impact of being mixed race in the white supremacist world and what mixed individuals should do and be.
I think I have to limit my thoughts to mixed black individuals because black status is the worst status to have in the world dominated by white supremacy. It never changes like, say, irish status. One more qualifier, race, as we in the white supremacist world use the concept, is simply a tool for white supremacy. White people defined and continue to define what the racial labels mean.These labels are not efficient at all in describing people;however, true to their function, they are exceedingly efficient in marking people for various levels of mistreatment.
It is seen that the impact on a mixed race individual is adverse. Any person not white will be negatively impacted. Of course, any person has the natural right to self identify any way they please and do what is right for them. The friction a mixed black will likely experience from blacks when attempting to racially identify as other than black is a sad and pitiful consequence of white supremacy.
I would like to see mixed blacks use race as the linguistic political tool it is rather than the descriptor it is falsely held it up as. Of course we all have to do this.
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Brazil
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These two comments to me by son are what no one commenting on this subject (including Abagond) seem to want to explore:
“…One more qualifier, race, as we in the white supremacist world use the concept, is simply a tool for white supremacy. White people defined and continue to define what the racial labels mean.These labels are not efficient at all in describing people;…”
And this…
“…Any person not white will be negatively impacted. Of course, any person has the natural right to self identify any way they please and do what is right for them. The friction a mixed black will likely experience from blacks when attempting to racially identify as other than black is a sad and pitiful consequence of white supremacy.
I would like to see mixed blacks use race as the linguistic political tool it is rather than the descriptor it is falsely held it up as. Of course we all have to do this….”
Prior to the political challenging protests of the 60’s and the positive affirmations of “Black Power” and Black is Beautiful”. Black was traditionally seen how it is still even today as: negative, ugly, bad, evil….In fact the word Negro was embraced as a term of endearment and race pride by many African-Americans!
Who has defined the term: “mixed- race” ?…And what purpose can it only serve if it has already been scientifically conclusively established that there is only one actual race on this planet?
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Peanut , yes, I live in Brazil ( thanks, Wilson)
The problem here is people are saying “black Americans feel this way ” when there is no monolithic “black Americans”. People are implying black Americans want to force mixed “race” people to identify with them (those of Afro mix) and Tyrone is saying the opisite , and , Im sure he represents how some black Americans think.
I know a huge amount of black Americans who dont have any problems about these issues, and could be very sympathetic to mixed “race” issues.
The problem isnt with black Americans, its with a political agenda that rose out of defences against a white racist system that was brutal and violent
That agenda needs to be addressed and tweaked , and it has to respect the struggle that defence rose out of
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@ Bulanik
I too am wondering what you were trying to convey here:
“…Yet, I’m also still wondering about this ‘pecking order’ of mistreatment that is taken as an ABSOLUTE given. When I say “wonder” it is not a question of not “believing” or doubting due to lack of knowledge/experience about white supremacy or black history (as some might assume)….”
I remember reading Jefe’s comment about his experience in the link you posted and it struck me as being quite a revealing and traumatic reality. The type one would not readily associate with a person of “visibly mixed ethnicity” – which I think, co-incidentally is a far better term to use instead of the erroneous misleading one of “mixed-race”. I too have a mixed ethnicity of African and Caribbean heritage you just wouldn’t perceive this by looking at me!
When it comes to self definitions we have to undergo the process of collectively agreeing to define ourselves. We can either accept and go along with the established definitions or we can challenge them and attempt to substitute our own meanings.
This is precisely what has happened with the words: Black, American, British even Gay!
Perhaps it time for the same challenge to be made to the term: “mixed-race”. But it is definitely time for those people of “visibly mixed ethnicity” to publicly start self-defining themselves particularly to avoid the situation which Jefe’s experience in that link speaks to.
Its far too easy (and lazy) if you look visibly Black or white to accept those definitions of yourself. The real challenge is to take and use those definitions in a more positive and embracing way. One that includes rather than excludes. Or abandon them and use ones which are less limiting and more embracing for everyone concerned.
– This is what white people themselves have failed comprehensively to do with the term: “white”. Perhaps, because they believe they don’t have to as it already serves them. But this is the lie of buying into and believing the prevailing belief system of white supremacy.
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@ Legion & Wilson,
You both raise some interesting questions many of which I have endeavoured to explore myself. The question Wilson posed earlier to me which Legion attempted to explore is not as paradoxical as it suggests:
Legion: “…“The way you view the world [Abagond] seems totally right to you because you get some kind of pay off for your view and because the longer we stick to something, the more real it becomes; but none of that proves that your socio-political view of life is correct. ”
Wilson: “…This applies to everyone, doesn’t it? Otherwise, you would just change how you viewed the world? No? How do you know if your socio-political view of life is correct? When others agree with you? What’s correct, left or right??…”
Yes…I too agree, as you correctly identified with Legion’s comment (which he also concedes) that this can apply to everyone not just Abagond.
However, in response to the second part. It is US, individually and collectively who determine which socio-political view of life is correct. We do this consciously or sub-consciously by our actions which are a direct reflection of our most cherished beliefs. The beliefs we have nurtured and followed unquestionably throughout our lives. And as you say we can easily fool ourselves into believing, because others seem to agree with us, that we must be right. Even though in an absolute sense we could still be wrong?
This is the apparent paradox your comment speaks to which is relies on the fundamental belief system of there being a “right” and a “wrong”. This is what all religions are based on and is at the heart of disagreement between the major ones such as: Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
There is no absolute “right” or “wrong” ! There is only what we collectively set ourselves to agree or dis-agree on. Of course you could respond and say this too is only a belief. But that is the point! Its all relative and is, incidentally, where “Free Will comes in. Which we all have. So who is to determine who is right or wrong?
The power of FORCE goes a long in determining that. Which is how Western Society has been put together no matter how fair, democratic and free we may think or it may seem to be. – It isn’t !!!
The answer lies within all of us which we can obtain from listening to our own individual inner feed back. Some call it our “gut feelings”, others call it the inner voice of God. It doesn’t matter. Its all the same thing. The problem is we have collectively been told from inception to avoid or mis-trust listening to this “inner voice” which we all collectively and individually share. This is the spiritually recognition of our inner interconnectedness. Which if we truly learned to listen to would ultimately tell us that which is right or wrong. This is not, and does not have to be the same for everyone. It just needs to be a part of and fit into the whole of what is an already naturally balance system.
Just sharing some of my own thoughts here…
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tyrone:
Sorry but I am not black nor american. I am as white as can be, from the northern Europe. But I’ve been around some.
I just wonder the very core idea of racism, “Pure Race”, which you refer. It is the very bases for racism. It is essential element on every racist ideology or variation of the theme.
You talk about “diluting ourselves”. How? There are no “pure” blacks in USA, and there are no “Pure” whites either. That is a racist fantasy. It is a fairytale in racism. Biologically there is only one human race. Thats it.
I know I will be blamed and name called but for me there are just people. It is not easy to live like that but I try everyday. I refuse to think in terms of “them”. Cathegorigly. For me there are no races. Just humans. Yes, some of us have different skin color, some have different hair, some are tall and some are short etc. I know this sounds like a hippie poop and perhaps it is but that is the way I want to live and look at other humanbeings. I refuse to put you or anyone else on some racial classificatio box. Period. I just wont do it.
It is not easy because the racism is everywhere. It is doing just fine. I have to be alert and be aware of it all the time. But it can be done. It is a decision not to follow racist ideas. One has to work it. You are you for me, not a “black man”. You are Tyrone who happens to have darker skin and is american. That is all. But you do not belong another “race” or some other separate racial entity.
But I wonder why on earth anyone suffereing directly from racism is doing his best to uphold it?? Why do you want to believe in such nonesense as racial purity? What it is that appeals to you in that idea? What it is in the very idea of Pure Blackness that gives a satifaction, comfort and the feel of being something?
It is the very same thing that gives the same feelings and emotions to those whites who think the same way. And I just wonder why anyone who has to live with the consiquenses of racism everyday wants to keep it up?
As for “intermarriages”… For me anyone who loves anyone can marry anyone whom they please. Yes, blacks and whites and latinos, and east asians, indians, aborginales, anyone who loves someone can and should marry them. If you have kids whose father is black and mother is japanese, they are just kids. Not “mixed racially”. That is how I look at this subject. I refuse from the idea of “racial purity” or “racial mixing”. They are just kids who happen to look like that. And the more people would think like that, the less we would have people who have problems with any imagined “race” and less problems with racism since there would be no “races”. Just people.
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@Sam,
Are you as a white man willing to acknowledge that racial mixing does not destroy the black communities of the world genetically? To say what you are saying in your post implies that you understand and have come to terms with the fact the smaller gene pools will absorb into the larger gene pools….
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That should read “with the fact that.”
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@Kwamla
There is a difference between “visibly mixed ethnicity” and “ethnically ambiguous looking”. The only time I could count on being mistaken for the former was when I was with both my parents. If I was not with other people, often what happened would be the latter.
That still doesn’t stop people from trying to categorize you, and hopefully (from their point of view) assign you to a single category. Or, if they could accept multiple categories, they would try to dissect every piece of it. And no, it is not just white people doing the categorizing and the dissecting.
I suppose, more and more, we will have more people whose parents are also ambiguous looking. If it becomes too common (in 2 or 3 more generations), then people will just treat ethnic ambiguous looking as the new *normal*.
@phoebeprunelle
I don’t think that is what happens. If history is a guide, new ethnic groups form and old ones sometimes disappear or get absorbed. If you think about it, there was no such think as “Black American” or “Mexican” 450 years ago, but now there are ethnic groups with those names. Different things mix to form those groups, and they tend to reformulate around new cultures. There is also continuous in-migration and out-migration all the time.
Han Chinese have grown into such a large ethnic group partly because they simply absorbed their neighbors or their ethnic minorities. For example, the Manchus,numbering in the tens of millions previously, have pretty much disappeared in the span of 150 years (down to about 10 million left which are very “Hannified”).
I don’t know what ethnic groups will exist in North America in 2500, but I strongly believe that it will be different from how it is today. For example, I suspect it could be something like 50% multiracial (maybe similar to ethnically ambiguous looking Eloi people in The Time Machine (2002 film) – the new “American” ethnicity, which is not too different from what some of the Latin American countries are today), 25% Chinese (from massive in-migration in the 22nd century) and the rest are descendant from the original “monoracial” groups that existed at the beginning of the 21st century.
To illustrate a point, there are Afro-Mexican people and Afro-Venezuelan people today, but their proportion of the population has continuously declined in the past few hundred years and are much less than the historical record of immigration from Africa would suggest. Unless there is massive immigration from Africa and the Caribbean, the same thing could happen to the USA. In fact, it seems like it is happening already. 25th century multiracial ethnic Americans will have to take guided tours to towns in Iowa and Utah to see people who are still descendant from the original white people and coastal South Carolina to see authentic Black People. Mexicans see mostly mestizos in daily life, but they can find groups white people, blacks and Native Americans in communities scattered in different regions of the country.
If there is a large out-migration from the USA, it won’t be evenly spread across the population. Certain groups would leave more than others. In Malaysia, the ethnic Chinese have dropped from about 33% of the population 50 years ago to 23% now.
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@Bulanik, Legion, phoebeprunelle, You guys are so smart, You always seem to have a wealth of information on alot of subjects. Are you university students? Are you college professors. I always enjoy reading the comments from you guys.
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@Jefe, we are going to be “deadlocked” with that issue so better stop now i’m afraid.
@Mary, no i am none of thee above, just an average working gal 🙂
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@ Kwamla,
Thanks for expanding on our discussion further.
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@ Legion,
A bit of a weird question, but what is the greatest thing you’ve ever learned in relation to the above: your questing?
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@phoebeprunelle:
I think it is only matter of time when so called “white race” will be gone. The numbers show it already. So-called whites are a minority in the world and will be smaller and smaller untill they are no more. It is a biological fact and I have no problem with that. Like I said, I do not believe in so-called races. There is just one race of humans in the world.
Genetically, basically we are all africans, with slight variation. You, if you are an american black, and I have less genetical differences than western african from eastern african. The biggest genetical differences are inside Africa. But like I stated, there are no pure “races” nowhere on the planet. That is a racist myth.
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@Sam,
So geez, we were practically saying the very same thing…
“scratches head”
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@Jefe
What do you mean by the terms you’ve chosen such as:“ethnically ambiguous looking”?
Are you using these terms to describe yourself? Or what you believe others might see and perceive you as? Remembering of course when you use the term ambiguous it has to be relative to something else.
What is that something else your referring to ? Black, White, etc…?
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@ Wilson & Legion
What you were both discussing here encapsulates the essence of what my previous comment to you both was about: Truth being relative rather absolute
The lies referred to here are our most cherished beliefs but we believe them as truths. And yes they are true for us of course. When we all collectively agree them: like Black and white identities. It just doesn’t mean they have to be true for everyone else. Unless, of course, they too choose to accept and agree them.
To realize we all have this individual and collective defining power, yes, can seem threatening. To ourselves, as individuals, and others like our parents, siblings, partners, peers or the state etc…. But only because they all (just like us) know this to be instinctively true too!
So i would just add slightly differently:
“…Rather than avoiding life or being magnetized or entrapped in it, one learns to consciously live one’s life fearlessly, with greater imagination and creativity and fewer regrets!…”
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@ Legion,
OK I understand your fear and need to keep your views private.
@ Kwamla,
I’ve never heard it put that way before but I think you might be onto something. I know from Economics and Science and even Religion that things are the way they are because of a collective agreement. They like to use the word objective but it is only “objective” because they agree it is objective. One thing will be objective today, tomorrow it’ll be something else because of whatever justification they come up with and so it changes and has always changed. However I don’t really know at what point an agreement stops being something rather vague and inconsequential and turns into something with real ramifications with the ability to completely alter ones view of reality. We as black people are lost beyond this line, somehow we lost our view and adopted their view and now all we see is all they let us see which again is what we let ourselves see since we have agreed to it. God this sounds weird.
You have to agree on one thing though: In this world, universe, whatever you want to call it, there must be something real (don’t know what it is, could be a set of rules, maybe what they refer to as spirit or nature or whatever) where everything emanates from and I believe that if you can somehow tether yourself to that, then you can avoid essentially being lost in the sea or desert with no sense of direction because I do believe when you get lost it’s very hard to find your way back.
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@ Bulanik
I think the point to be made here is that suffering is suffering. We can’t really equate one person or a group of people’s suffering to another person or another group of people. Though of course some people will attempt to find reasons and explanations to do this.
Here’s another example: who suffers most a human being when killed or an animal? There are those (scientists) who will say animals don’t suffer in the same way as humans. But how would they really know this to be true?
While its one of those “lies” we can convince ourselves to believe in order to justify imposing suffering on another being or person. Unless we live the same life as that person how would we ever know for sure?
In relation to Jefe he obviously suffered and experienced a traumatic form of racism who is say that his suffering was any less traumatic than what a typical unambiguous Black American might suffer?
What can be said factually, though, is that this type of racist suffering began and has the longest and most deepest entrenchment with African peoples. Who were forcibly shipped as slaves and bred in captivity to produce the various shades of Black people we see representative in many countries today.
Jefe’s traumatic racism experience has an origin and an association which is more typically tied to a person who looks visibly “Black” than someone who might vaguely fit that description. This is why I made my statement. This again is not to diminish the suffering but to place the experience of racist suffering in its broader context.
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“Jefe’s traumatic racism experience has an origin and an association which is more typically tied to a person who looks visibly “Black” than someone who might vaguely fit that description. This is why I made my statement. This again is not to diminish the suffering but to place the experience of racist suffering in its broader context…
Why diminish the suffering.. I still do not understand, after all these comments, how to talk to children about white people..What do we say to our children?
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“Bulanik,
Linda@ there is still resentment if mixed-race people don’t toe-the-line and state that they are “black” … any mention of your other “races” or ethnicities will cause problems and hurt feelings.’
Linda, could you say more about why this reaction (resentment, sensitivity) is expressed in such an intensely personal way.”
Linda says,
Truly don’t know…I think this question should be answered by someone who is black American, from their personal viewpoints.
As Tyrone alluded to — the whole “field hand/ house servant” syndrome has never disappeared from society
Click to access servants.pdf
The birth of internal racism (colourism) seems to have started from this colour division — this division affected all of us coming from countries that practiced slavery.
But why has it manifested itself in the USA differently than anywhere else where there are large groups of African diaspora descendants? — history of the country.
One of the more favored phrases made to mixed people by black people is to tell them (mixed) that “they’re still black”
this comment was designed to put the mixed person “back into their place” and remind them that the pecking order doesn’t favor them anymore than a black person with no visible admixture — everybody with visible African ancestry is still in the same boat.
This mindset may stem from the Jim Crow laws in America, which did indeed keep everyone of colour in the same boat– these segregationist laws did not exist in the Caribbean/ Central America or in Europe.
But why bother to make a comment like that if you (black) truly believe this person (mixed) has no advantage over you — it seems petty.
But the comment is a reaction to an “offense” that was committed — and it seems to uphold the historically “silent” battle being waged between field hands (black) versus house servant (brown/mixed race)
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@Vanishing point
I believe the subject was how to talk to children about racism. If it were about white people (or only white people), then the we may have had a completely different discussion thread.
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@Linda
I remember watching a reality program a few years ago (the name of the show escapes me) featuring a group of American girls in their late teens. One segment of the show involved a trip to a country in Africa. I remember that the contestants who were visibly darker black were praised by their African hosts about learning about and experiencing their African roots. The lighter skinned black girls did not receive that treatment; in fact, they were grouped with the other white (or Latina / Asian) girls as being non-African American and were told so much by their African hosts. This disturbed the lighter skinned black girls who stated that they very much recognize the component of their African ancestry and identify as black in the USA. They felt shafted by their African hosts for that reason.
My point is . . . even if it seems an obvious simple truism, the reality can be more complicated. Both are cases of putting the mixed person “back in her place”. Even if the black African descendent American held the upper hand of power, the persons with more visible non-African admixture will likely still get shafted.
I wish I could remember the name of the show so that I could look it up.
Yep, exactly.
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@ Xeelee
Your comment…..
“Isn’t one of the issues here that identifying as ‘black’ in the US means ‘buying the whole package’, both showing solidarity to a race (a very arbitrary concept) and adopting African-American culture? Many biracial people may feel that black US culture is quite foreign to them, especially if they grew up around mainly non-black people. This could also be an issue for African immigrants to the US. They are just as (probably even more) black than African-Americans, but do not have that much in common with them.
So biracials may feel torn between being looked at as ‘black’ by society but not being a part of the traditional concept of ‘blackness’ in the US.”
…… really comes close to defining my existence as a Nigerian-American, and is one of the reasons why I don’t label people but take them as they are (with the labels that they choose, if any). It’s frustrating not being “black enough” for the black Americans (not that I have or want much to do with African-American culture per se), but also being way to American/westernized to really be Nigerian, even if I do have the option of getting a Nigerian passport. Sometimes it’s so hard to just *be* that I seriously consider getting the heck out of this country after I finish professional school.
Unfortunately, many of us first generation kids also get “put in our place” as well, sometimes (but not always) by the methods mentioned by others above. But just because a white person can’t immediately tell the differences between a black American and I, or the people who constitute their community and mine does not mean we are the same. Our struggle against the effects of institutional racism, and our goal of pursuing “life, liberty and happiness” are the same. However, this is where my cultural similarities,etc. with most black Americans end. And that is ok, because black people are not a monolith!… Or at least I thought we weren’t. It is pretty ironic how often that claim is made while the behavior of some black and mixed race people who don’t quite fit the mold is regularly policed by other black people.
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Abagon, I actualy meant this post I put on the Internalised racism thread to be here:
“It never had anything to do with “who suffered more”, and everything to do with not understadning black American culture.
People can point fingers at someone and call them “racist”, “opressor”, use all the
language that was developed right out of the black American Civil Rights movement, but, they have no idea what real black American culture and the real struggle was all about.
They are more than willing to attack Abagond for his views , but, have no idea of the origins of those views and how it has much more to do with a political activist agenda , that was part of a much bigger political activist agenda.
They dont know how to go back to “Mashed Potatoes”time, they dont even know what that means, because you really have to go back to the time when the black American dance , The Mashed Potatoes was in style to understand that coming up soon in the future is going to be a major shift in the political thinking of black Americans.”House and Feild Negro” doesnt explain this because house and feild doesnt break down in color. Colorism existed, but, the “mixed race” individual was not scrutinised in a political agenda context as it has become now.
People arnt giving the black American struggle enough ackowledgement, in this look at “mixed race” attitudes, that it was about putting together defences against this unrelenting white violent racism, which again, they know nothing about …sorry, but having violent situations in someones life has nothing to do with living under Jim Crow laws, white flight real estate, police brutality and society putting you down and stripping you of your culture etc all amped up on Afro descendants brought over from slavery.And it just shows that people cant just look at the black American situation with out having to compare it to any other situation on the planet…this is a blog by a black American , with black American sensitivities, not Indian from India, Arab, Chinese, European, etc
Because if they truly understood how absolutly total these defences had to be put in place to overcome a system that truly was against succeeding , if they truly understood black American culture and how it developed, they would see that it isnt about attacking one person for something they are saying, its about going to the origins of this agenda and looking at it as the real cause of some of the views about “mixed race ” people that have put them in the middle of a no win situation ..they are showing a lack of sympathy for the defences needed.
Are “mixed race” individuals sensitivities important? Absolutly!
There is a need to re examine some of these political agendas that just dont carry over, and are just a yoke on everyone , blatently on display in the BWE thread.But , you cant diminish the struggle. The black American struggle against white racism is a work in progress, its on going. And, because of this struggle, there have been enormous gains…70 percent middle class in a system that never wanted or cared for them to succeed..
Yes, some sensitivities have been lost in the struggle
The incredible black American art of tap dancing got thrown under a bus it never has recovered from
Thanks to herculian efforts by Wynton Marsalis, Louis Armstrong , put down by this poltica agenda , for shucking and jiving to the white man, finaly has been recognised for the genius he represents in American culture
And “mixed race ” people have been caught in the middle of a political agenda that really leaves them in a horrible position, and, it deserves to be scrutinised very hard….because America is changing..fast..and who is stuck in political agendas from the past, may be lost in the confusion as the change comes…they will suffer in the long run more than mixed race people
Tyrone is a black American whose defences are rightfully locked and loaded against white racism. He deserves to shine a light on this white racism and how it will seep into so many areas to only try to put him down…but, his views on “mixed race ” people might end up as stiff bonds that could be melted away in him if he one day met a mixed race girl that he fell in love with , or someone who might save his life or help him in a profound way that would highlight the barriours of his beleifs about mixed race people
But, if peope dont really understand black American culture , the origins of the poltical activist agendas, what it was like before, they are just surfacly attacking what someone sais and not getting anywhere near the real issues and answers to why these things are how they are now”
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Abagond, sorry I misspelled your name above, here is another post I mistakingly put on the Internalised racism thread
” I am always perplexed at the boogie woogie that goes on with this blog and the semantical instant political activist scrutiny
“black”, “sub Sahara”, “mixed race”, I mean they are all inadaquate metaphors
but, subtitute them with more inadequate metaphors, as filled with holes as swiss cheese?
Take ” aboriginal indigenous natives”…I mean seriously
“aboriginal” blatently brings to mind “aboriginies” from Australia and could be severly confusing.
“indigenous”, why dont they ever say “Hitler invaded the indigenous people of Poland and the Sovite Union and France”? it seems only reserved for suposedly people outside of “civilisation”
“natives” only conjures up visions of “the natives are restless”
Its totaly as inadaquate as the other terms and actualy confuses conversation, only regulating it to some elite scholar “I am superiour to you because I can use these confusing complicated definitions”
Comunication is what is important, not some semantical out pointing the other with suposidly political correctness”
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@ Legion
“The thing is, our minds move so quickly we often don’t notice we are flitting about. If you go on this way for years the environment can end up imputing all kinds of awful beliefs into your system.”
Yes according to some of the latest research and you know what, there isn’t much we can do about it other than note that we don’t have as much control over how our mind works. Read up on the adaptive unconscious.
http://news.clas.virginia.edu/psych/x1115.xml
It is basically a theory that states most of our motivations, desires, fears etc emanate from the unconscious mind and that the conscious mind can’t accurately describe where these feelings are coming from or why and instead essentially makes up a narrative that we in turn believe to be true. That introspection can be but not always misleading because when we introspect, we focus on the voice in our head but we can’t really know where it’s coming from, we can’t see behind the curtain so to speak.
However with regard to your comment about things we consider inconsequential having a greater impact from the get-go, I just remembered something that leads me to agree with your premise;-
Some time ago I read something about what type of advertisements have a greater impact on behavior and it turned out to be those that you considered inconsequential because you were busy doing something else or being mindless i.e. not paying full attention,
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sold-language/201107/think-you-cant-be-persuaded-ads-you-ignore-think-again
It shows that yes, things that we consider inconsequential can have a very big impact and an effective way to counter this is to pay attention and stay grounded especially on things that matter and to be aware under what sort of conditions we are more likely to be manipulated most effectively.
Making this relevant to this post, I think obviously the state of race and racism and our perceptions of it are greatly influenced by manipulation and the adaptive unconscious – things that have seeped beyond the scope of our introspection.
Anywhose I hope that made sense.
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@ Makeba
“Sometimes it’s so hard to just *be* that I seriously consider getting the heck out of this country after I finish professional school. ”
–> Yes, the USA is stressful in that regard. It was one reason I moved to NY – a little more freedom to be myself, but I found it even easier by leaving the USA.
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This commenter doesnt even know where to look to really analyse what really happened in the Black Civil Rights Movement that led to the politicising of “mixed race ” people…neither does Jeff
Because this commenter doesnt know black American culture
Yet , there is this rant against Abagond instead of really trying to get to the real reasons that these atitudes developed that politicised what mixed race people can do and cant
It never was about whether Jeff’s suffering was less or greater
Fearful? You have to be kidding
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BR,
This commenter doesnt even know where to look to really analyse what really happened in the Black Civil Rights Movement that led to the politicising of “mixed race ” people…neither does Jeff
Because this commenter doesnt know black American culture
Yet , there is this rant against Abagond instead of really trying to get to the real reasons that these atitudes developed that politicised what mixed race people can do and cant”
Linda says,
Then why don’t you fill us in BR, since we foreign-born black and brown multiracial people are so ignorant, even though many of us have lived or had interactions within the black community in America
You are basically trying to tell us that (1) because we are foreign-born black/brown people we don’t know anything about American history, impact of slavery or the One-drop rule (did we all just fall off the turnip truck); and we multi-racial people should just accept being pigeon-holed and marginalized by black America because they’ve “earned” the right due to their struggles and political agenda.
You have to be kidding, BR.
Speculating on the how’s and whys of American colourism and it’s manifestation is nothing more than an academic exercise….us foreign born black/brown people don’t need to enroll in black American Civil Rights 101, in order to recognize when we are being marginalized by another group of coloured people.
You forget that we foreign born black/brown people come from countries that also have colourism/racism in the black/brown/white communities, so we actually have a Idea about how internal racism works and we can also SEE the difference of how it works in the USA versus outside of USA (since most of us have travelled or have lived or have family in US) —
so, if we foreign-born black/brown people are writing based on assumptions, then, BR, please tell us the real 411 and bring us into the light.
And by the way, Your statement right here:
“BR@And it just shows that people cant just look at the black American situation with out having to compare it to any other situation on the planet…this is a blog by a black American , with black American sensitivities, not Indian from India, Arab, Chinese, European, etc”
is very condescending!
Abagonds blog is not FUBU — he is American with West Indian ancestry, so I’m sure he doesn’t mind hearing from the international community
I’m sure Abagond will let us African, European, Indian and Asian mixed-race foreigners/ black people know when he doesn’t wish for us to give our non-American opinions and share our views.
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I think Bulanik’s take was a little bit harsh, . . . Well, the spirit is lively but the words are a little harsh.
But…
Why indeed are so many people being underestimated? Of course I understand (at least in large part) what happened in the Black Civil Rights movement that led to the politicizing of “mixed race” people. It is precisely because of that that I brought it up in the first place.
How is it, then, that Abagond portends that he understands or knows about White American culture?
Well, because he lives among it; he was exposed to it in school, in the media; he studies it. His take on it may not always be perfect, but I have never attacked his right to make observations about white American culture (or even about Asian Americans or Native Americans or whatever).
Black American culture is woefully underrepresented in school and the media, but, it does not mean that we can still not learn about, live and breathe it, as it were. I have always considered Black American history and culture to be MY history and culture too. It is all American history and culture, and I am a part of it, and it is a part of me. I have been learning it since I was a small child and still am today. In fact, I think it is a consequence of the white racism in schools which led to the thinking that White history and culture belongs to everyone (or at least should) and the rest must be splintered up into small groups.
@B.R.
I think that Bulanik does indeed know a lot about “the real reasons that these atitudes developed that politicised what mixed race people can do and cant”. I certainly do. But society is changing now too. It is only in the past 30 years that being “mixed race” has become a new thing to contend with in the US society and culture. Yes, they had the phenomenon in pre-1970s and even pre-Civil War, but the phenomenon they was different.
Prior to the 1970s, most of the non-African ancestry that entered into the Black American population came before the Civil War (either through more free intermingling in the 17th-18th century or through white men and slaves in the 18th-19th century. After Reconstruction, when Black / White (and in many places, all White/ Non-white) relationships were effectively banned, European ancestry spread more thoroughly into the Black American population through the multi-racial mixed black people, which were prohibited from having relationships with whites. Still, black African ancestry passed into the white population through the act of “passing”. So, both sides get more mixed despite strict anti-miscegenation laws. But, the anti-miscegenation laws mean that we are forced to pretend that it does not exist; everyone must be codified into monoracial terms, and despite all the race mixing, there are so few “mixed marriages” and mixed children (or adults).
But repealing Anti-miscegenation and seeing the regrowth of interracial relationships and children from these relationships has ignited the need for a new model to contend with this. There is a lot invested in the old system, and people feel a need to hold onto it (and I understand that), but there is a growing need to deal with the evolving situation as it is unfolding.
Hence, my original take on why the talk to children about racism needs to include a few more things now.
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I’m just not seeing how it is Tiger Woods’ self-identification as a person of mixed descent which is being written off as a character flaw. I’m a person of mixed descent, and visibly so. I do, however, identify as being both Black and multiracial, and don’t really give a hang who doesn’t like it or how they might want to manipulate me into NOT identifying with all known aspects of my heritage. These types of censuring / attempts at shaming often quickly follow any partially Africa-descended person’s acknowledgment of mixed heritage (and can be found even in the commentary here on this blog-site), and mostly especially if that person lays ‘claim’ to indigenous American heritage (much more so than when the claims are of European or other admixtures anyway). I just giggle to myself when I see it but don’t take it too much to heart.
That said, I’m not personally acquainted with Tiger Woods but I doubt that he is an imbecile. He more than likely knows after his many dealings with them that most whites view him as just another n*66er…and an uppity one at that He probably also realized somewhere along the way that if his response to their hate was an explosion of indignation / anger or if even he took simple umbrage to racist remarks and behavior every time they occurred, then his career in the traditionally white man’s game of golf would have ended before it even began…back when he was still a small child, as a matter of fact. After spending most of his life having to maneuver around whites in order to get as far as he has, he’s obviously had to suck up a whole lot of crap from a multitude of resentment-filled whites whose paths he’s crossed along the way.
Tiger keeps his eye on the prize, so to speak. When that hateful white woman made the ‘joke’ about Tiger being lynched, and then went to him to ‘apologize’ in an attempt to save her career, Tiger was probably calling her all kinds of white b itches in his thoughts, but, as he didn’t want to make any statements of anger or outrage etc. which might impinge upon his own career, he sucked it up and courteously accepted her lies.
I’d say that Tiger is pretty much only looking out for Tiger, he’s not a civil rights advocate for Blacks and he’s not going to try to be one even for himself –hollering and screaming about rights, as he sees it, will only hurt him as an individual …he’s going to allow others to make that sacrifice. He wants the fame, wealth and accolades, and is willing to excuse and ignore the malignant behavior of racist whites in order to get what he wants. A well paid, golf-playing Stepin Fetchit suits him just fine. There are plenty of so-called monoracial Blacks and other PoC who have and will do the same, even where far lower stakes are concerned. Perhaps it is this aspect of Tiger’s personality which some are seeing as a ‘flaw in his character’ rather than his identifying himself as a mixed race man.
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Ditto
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Linda, you dont get my position at all
Where did I ever say you said you should accept being pidgeon holed? I implied knowing how mixed race people became politicised in the USA should be part of your understanding of why it happens
what is so hard for you to understand that that is what I meant? What hangups about me do you have to mischaractorise my position so much?
Do your foreign born countries have the ku klux klan ? The lynching history? Jim Crow laws? white flight tied into real estate? My point is, you have to analyse this problem in America by American terms and history. You think you know everything about racism …you dont know anything about Brazil, Brazil has to be analysed on its terms..you can only guess about it…you never lived there…understanding Brazil”s racism is far differant than understanding racism in the USA…I would never pretend to tell you about Jamaican racism….so , you live in the USA……exactly, Linda, exactly…you have some insight because of this, but, did you live in a black comunity in the 60’s? Do you have any idea how it really evolved?
If you are going to butcher my postition that much, why even try to tell you what I saw and experianced, I see where you will go with it and just pidgeon hole me for being white American…I already told you exactly where to look….you take it from there…and take a gander at the BWE thread also
Jefe, if you really had a handle on this history, you would know Obama wouldnt have been scrutinised as much as he is now, for being mixed race before the late 60’s . That is the crux here…”mixed race” people of Afro descent , in the early days of slavery , were accepted in the black community ( of course there were hiarcial breakdowns, but, generalising that all black Americans didnt accept mixed race people in slave times would be wrong, they were in the community) ..the wide range of mixture is all in the black American community…”America is changing…” exactly my words Jefe…yeah , I agree, its my American history also
Seriously, you really think you know what it was like being raised black in America? What is so wrong with understanding the uniqueness of the black American experiance and the gains that were made in the black American Civil Rights movement against the Jim Crow laws/ white flight/ violent racism? Understanding how much that meant, Linda has lost that point, she doesnt understand that countries like Brazil didnt go through that struggle , and, black people are stuck in almost a pre 60’s American surpresion and marginalisation..with out the Klan /lynching violence hanging over their heads….Linda thinks that Argentina had some kind of assimilation by black people into its culture, but, Linda doesnt know there just werent that many black people in Argentina to begin with…its like each country has to be analysed in a deep serious way…I didnt just come to understand racism in Brazil right away, except some things were painfully obvious, like so few black people on tv in a country that is near fifty percent Afro descendant.Ive had to study for years to really get the grasp on what is happening about the attitudes and things that drive the racism underneath.
And so where would I ever or ever have made a statement that would imply that mixed race also isnt unique also, as unique as being black in America , with its own special needs and sensitivities?I would also say a black American wouldnt know what it is like to be Jewish in Europe with the Nazi’s hunting after you .Too many generalisations going on here
And I certainly have implied that black Americans should be aware of this uniqueness and of the reality of “mixed race” people
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“Where did I ever say you said you should accept being pidgeon holed? I implied knowing how mixed race people became politicised ”
should read “where did I ever say you should accept being pidgeion holed”…I mean really….what in gods name would give you the impresion, Linda, that I think you have to accept it..there is a differance to accepting something and understanding something
Lets talk about black culture Linda…what do you know about the culture of your Afro descendant side, and the gift of the Afro diasporic culture to the world? I would just like to hear your words so I can feel your understanding…you do know that you can have Afro diasporic heratige but have no idea what the Afro diasporic gift to the world is, right?
Can you define it , Jefe?
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You know , Linda, my extended family is as mixed, multi cultural, multi national and multi “racial” as anyone on this blog..
To have been pegged on this blog as “racist”, “belittling someone for being a black woman”, implying Im not sympathetic to “mixed race” sensitivities , sucks the mop big time
When I leave this blog, I am in a serious multi culrutrual, multi national,multi racial thouroghly integrated world
Its disgusting how cyber space distorts things
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And, Jefe, did you read the “First Racism Experiance” thread?
Did you see that a lot of the testimonies by black Americans stated that their first experiance was in school, from a teacher…
Sorry, but I dont see anything in your statement about what you understand what it iike to grow up black in America that even halfway aludes to that…I sympathise with your pain and suffering growing up, am I mixing you up with someone, or did we have a conversation on here about you not being accepted by your father or a tribe? I totaly support your desire to express your heratige anyway you want, I just said you may never get satisfaction from your father or that tribe…if that was you…if not, I dont know what your heritage is.I just dont think you really know what it is like growing up black in America …that doesnt dimminish your pain one iota, but, surly you realise growing up black in America can only be defined on its terms
Its funny, Linda, you live in South Florida, right? Its always amazing to me, when I pass through Miami and South Beach (3 times on business in the last 2 years), coming from Brazil , where you dont see many phenotype black people waiting at the gates for flights, or at the luxury and medium priced hotels, but, in Miami, at the airport and high rolling South Beach hotels, you see lots of black Americans, who also own businesses….its actualy mind blowing coming from the way Brazil is….this is a huge result of the Black American Civil Rights movement….Brazil badly needs it….and, unfortunatly, mixed race people got stepped on , and, I dont want that in Brazil, it would also be close to impossible with so many mixed people
I also ackowledge that coming from another country, that is another factor that combined with your bi racial mixture, puts a lot of unnescasary obsticles in your way….for sure, as an immigrant living in another country, I gained huge insights and respect for immigrants in America, and, from my son’s bi racial and bi national experiances, I learned even more about those obsticles
Its just hard to not acknowledge those gains if we are going to scrutinise black American political activist attitudes about mixed race people that filtered into some black American thinking….which, I reiterate,is meant to understand not accept bigotry against mixed race people, but maybe with some sympathy for the whole picture.
My main point is, ranting at Abagond doesnt even really address the problem and its origins…that is what I kept urging…my gosh, he is giving us a chance to diologue on this…the real origins and how the attitudes developed is what should be looked at…not pointing nervous fingers at someone and say “you are wrong”
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“BR,
Understanding how much that meant, Linda has lost that point, she doesnt understand that countries like Brazil didnt go through that struggle , and, black people are stuck in almost a pre 60′s American surpresion and marginalisation
Linda thinks that Argentina had some kind of assimilation by black people into its culture, but, Linda doesnt know there just werent that many black people in Argentina to begin with”
Linda says,
BR, what kind of f’cking rubbish are you talking about…I’m from the f’cking Caribbean…do you think Brazil is unique..why don’t you travel to Colombia and Venezuala or pick an island, all of them are dealing with the same b’llshit of classism and poverty…
Please, do not presume to tell me about myself..I’ve written enough posts here talking about things I DO KNOW ABOUT and one thing I do know about is American history and black American history. I am quite comfortable talking about Caribbean and Latin American history as well because that’s where I’m from, that’s my heritage.
BR, you don’t know me or what I do in this real life, so stop presuming to know me or the depth of my knowledge.
On this blog, I have never brought your whiteness into question and told you that you don’t know anything because you are white. But you need to pull back because the one thing I don’t need is for you to try and teach me about my African ancestry…my elders and my upbringing taught me about that part of my heritage…I am not lost
You will never know how it feels to be a black/brown person, the same way I don’t know how it is to be white, so please don’t sit here preaching to me.
If you want to tell us about black America from you’re prospective, then do so. I’ve never been disrespectful to you on this blog, so I don’t even know where half the sh’t you’re saying is coming from…
I have nothing against you but I will call out b’llshit as I see it and if I miscontrued what you said, then clarify and tell me what you meant.
I’ve never tried to censor you or condescend to you but you’ve been doing it to me lately and I don’t appreciate it.
.
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The old anything but black arguments clothed in verbosity and pomposity! Next!
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“BR,
Its funny, Linda, you live in South Florida, right? Its always amazing to me, when I pass through Miami and South Beach (3 times on business in the last 2 years), coming from Brazil , where you dont see many phenotype black people waiting at the gates for flights, or at the luxury and medium priced hotels, but, in Miami, at the airport and high rolling South Beach hotels, you see lots of black Americans, who also own businesses….its actualy mind blowing coming from the way Brazil is….this is a huge result of the Black American Civil Rights movement”
Linda says,
BR, I don’t know where you got this idea that I don’t recognize or acknowledge the positive results or gains achieved by the black community in the US. I’ve written plenty of posts showing my admiration about the gains made by women and POC in America due to Civil Rights movement because blacks in America actually inspired many other black/brown people around the world in the 1960’s with their movement.
South Florida or rather Miami is actually the wrong city to use to highlight black American gains…you might see black faces but many of them are Caribbean or Latino…the Cubans run Miami and Spanish is the main language. The Haitians have done a great job of advancing in Miami and Kreyol and Spanish are both languages you will see and hear everywhere.
Black Americans have done a great job of not being foreigners in their own land but the reality is Miami is “North Latin America”, the USA starts again once you leave Dade County.
I think a city like Birmingham, Alabama would be better to highlight since this state played such a prominant role in the Civil Rights movement and was one of the most racially segregated cities in the U.S
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“BR,
Understanding how much that meant, Linda has lost that point, she doesnt understand that countries like Brazil didnt go through that struggle , and, black people are stuck in almost a pre 60′s American surpresion and marginalisation..with out the Klan /lynching violence hanging over their heads….Linda thinks that Argentina had some kind of assimilation by black people into its culture, but, Linda doesnt know there just werent that many black people in Argentina to begin with…its like each country has to be analysed in a deep serious way”
Linda,
BR, of course I understand that…thats why I said in my earlier post that “history” is what seperates the black community in the USA from the black/brown communities outside of the USA.
on Fri 19 Oct 2012 at 00:58:34
“Like I said, this topic is like napalm because (especially) in US, because of the history of the country, labels being forced by the government and people being segregated by race…I totally understand the mindset of why race is such a touchy and deep subject in this country”
on Sun 21 Oct 2012 at 06:25:19
“This mindset may stem from the Jim Crow laws in America, which did indeed keep everyone of colour in the same boat– these segregationist laws did not exist in the Caribbean/ Central America or in Europe.”
Please read my posts before you try to call me out.
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“BR,
Lets talk about black culture Linda…what do you know about the culture of your Afro descendant side, and the gift of the Afro diasporic culture to the world? I would just like to hear your words so I can feel your understanding…you do know that you can have Afro diasporic heratige but have no idea what the Afro diasporic gift to the world is, right?”
Linda says,
BR, you do know that this question coming from you is very condescending, right.
In Jamaica, we call this being “facety” and by rights you should get a few choice words in patois for this facetiness.
I have a post in moderation that I wrote to you and I wrote it from a place of anger because you’ve crossed the line with me.
As I said, I have nothing against you and enjoy reading you’re post because you contribute much with your music knowledge…but you presume too much when you attempt to want to tell me about my Afro heritage.
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“Herneith
The old anything but black arguments clothed in verbosity and pomposity! Next!”
Linda says,
Hernieth, don’t worry…we all know we’re “still black” and that white people will still call us “n’ggers” — and if we forget, we got the old soldiers like yourself to remind us.
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I cannot believe I just read that defense of Tiger.
What a load of ‘ish. Not only has the author outted Tiger as a complete and utter sell out, he has proceeded to excuse this behavior. Tiger is 100% not a good example. He is selfish and has zero pride. He only cares about money regardless of the cost. In no universe is he a good example. I ain’t saying he should go mouthing off at every turn against whatever racism he has suffered but I think he should show some principle. He is the epitome of individualism, cares about nothing and no one but himself. Well it has served him good because that is what you require to succeed in this world but that doesn’t mean it’s right.
I agree though, he isn’t black nor is he white, he is just Tiger, an individual who belongs no where.
When he goes, no one will remember him. Mohammed Ali had enough balls to tell the government to go screw themselves during the vietnam war, he sure as hell did not sell out, he was a man of principle who inspired those that came after him, Usain Bolt, this guy has inspired a WHOLE country, Michael Jordan, you name it, sportsmen who were not only great but inspirational. Tiger is good but is a nobody. What has he inspired, what has he done? No one will remember him. Not that he cares.
Lewis Hamilton, mixed race F1 driver is a bigger inspiration than Tiger and he has only won 1 championship.
It’s a personal belief that if you are great and you have remarkable talent then you have an obligation, not only to yourself but to other people as well.
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Yeah, Linda , I like reading you posts also, always have
and when Herneath lowers the boom, its time to throw in the towel with you…I just feel you missed what Im really trying to say,I am extremly sensitive to your situation as a “mixed race” multi national back ground living in the states
By the way, I do know the differance from black Americans and black people outside of the USA , in Miami, and I love the diversity in Miami…
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When one claims a race they are claiming a political position. It may not be what you want, but that is certainly part of what the receiver of your message will hear when you start claiming race- or most anything else for that matter. For instance, being white in america doesn’t just mean one descends from europeans who are granted white status in america. It also means I am in support of white supremacy and have no problem with the hegemony of the west – I support it. This is why blacks get offended, among other reasons like ignorance and blatant stupidity.
Another way to look at it is imagine a wealthy politician, like nyc’s mayor, has an unclaimed child with a warehouse worker who is kept at part time status to avoid the employers having to provide most benefits in addition to the lowest possible pay, crappiest hours and hardest work. What should the child claim? Would the offspring identify as plutocrat or exploited worker? I think it comes down to where the child grew up. You see there is no in between really. Either the child is inheriting the benefits of the plutocrat or not.
When it comes to being mixed race or mixed ethnicity it is the same,kind of. Either you are functioning as a plutocrat or not. When tiger was asked about his heritage I don’t believe anyone was solely wanting to know what his ‘mix’ was. They wanted to know where he stood politically. His resonse was basically don’t mix me up with blacks.
Just like the plutocrats whites (in the system of white supremacy) are “on the wrong side of morality”.why would you claim the bad? If my father was a serial killer I wouldn’t claim to be part serial killer. This is why some blacks will try to limit mixed folk in their identity expression. It isn’t exactly correct but it is logical and kind of a healthy response.
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I would say that race is a political concept, but as this article suggests, it may be both top down (by the state) and bottom up (by the individual).
http://sc2218.wetpaint.com/page/Race+as+a+social+and+political+construct
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@ Jefe
Unfortunately that article is woefully inadequate as it says nothing about the purpose of race or why it is used.
Why is race a political concept?.
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“I cannot believe I just read that defense of Tiger.”
Wilson,
If you’re speaking of my comment concerning Tiger Woods, it certainly wasn’t meant as a defense of his behavior — it was meant to be an analysis of how he might view himself and his own life circumstance. When Tiger was quoted as saying that civil rights advocacy was someone elses deal, while golf is his, it pretty much sums up his stance on things. It was this on which my “load of ‘ish, as you phrased it (if you were even commenting on my post, as you didn’t bother to mention the commenter’s username), attempted to elucidate. I am not Tiger Woods; his choices as to how he proceeds in life as a person of color are not my choices. We have a totally different outlook on these matters.
I and my “load of ‘ish” are now done with you. You are free to choose some other commenter to butt heads with as I am not.having it.
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Maybe the “load of ‘ish” statement was a bit over the top.
Tbf you came up with “butt heads with” like we are in some kind of jungle.
Even?
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Wilson, I am a ‘she’ and not a ‘he,’ as you referred to me when you commented on my other post. As you’ve been quite rude and combative towards regular commenters here since your arrival a few months back, I’m asking you nicely to please refrain from addressing me in any way, shape or form again.
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@ Jefe
I am wise enough to know this now, though it doesn’t stop it from hurting every time it happens. Plus, there is still so much to read and learn about before I can say more than I have already said. Every time I read the replies of the people on this blog, I wish I had an English-language library nearby so I could gain more knowledge about everything discussed! Unfortunately, whether I get to live near one or not is fate’s decision, not mine.
@ Bulanik
I have often felt this is the case and a few commenters have even said as much. I remember one even being rather angry that this blog that is apparently only for African Americans had been invaded by various POC from outside the US!
I think some Americans forget that the internet is populated mostly by Americans and, as a result, is very US-centric. The topic of race, racism and the various subjects that fall underneath its umbrella are not free from this. If someone becomes curious about race and racism, it is inevitable that most information he/she will find online will be all about the American perspective on race in the US. (From my own searches there are definitely not as many resources for POC in other countries.) Race in the US is often broken down to only Black and White. If anyone wants to learn about race, the easiest way to do so is by learning all about African Americans and their history.
This is the way I, a non-American, non-Black mixed race person, learnt about the racism I had experienced in another continent. Naturally, I picked up on the differences as well as the similarities and had to go elsewhere to discover tit-bits of the history behind the attitudes. Still, I think it is a rather US-centric thing to believe those outside the US could never understand African American history or experiences of racism when that is the most abundant information readily available!
Agreed. Just as having a `Black friend’ proves nothing about the lack or presence of racist thought in a White person’s mind, a POC spouse and mixed children also says nothing. I often went to my White mother after racist encounters to hear her encourage me and put down my attacker, only to slap me in the face with something just as presumptuous and racist.
I think people do not want to talk about race in the UK and Europe because the White people there like to think that only the US has race problems. Only many view the US’s race problem as people being too PC. Whenever POC have a complaint in UK/Europe, they are silenced by angry protest against the `PC brigade’ ruining everyone’s fun, making everything about race, attacking freedom of speech, etc., etc. Sometimes there’s even a dig at the person being brainwashed by the US’s media influence. Maintaining POC’s silence and keeping mum about race like a good colour-blind person means racism doesn’t exist to White Europeans and Brits. As long as they keep the POC quiet, they’re a fine example of equality.
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@Iris,
Yep, same here. In fact, sometimes she would even say it was MY problem and I don’t know how to behave or think correctly.
Indeed, marrying a non-white spouse and having mixed race children certainly does not exonerate the white person from continuing to perform and think some very racist acts and thoughts, even (or maybe ESPECIALLY) within the family.
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“That’s also true of commenters that believe black history/black peoples’ experiences of white supremacy is generally not understood by people from ethnically diverse families, or outside the US.”
This is an absolutly crude distortion of the actual thought (not you Iris, the person who purposly distorted it)
I said, people who are not black American ,dont know what its is like growing up black in America….and they dont really know black American culture
Now Jefe, I could say to you, black Americans really dont have any idea of what it is like to be raised bi racialy, like Jefes life was . They arnt going to know what it was like for Jefe to talk to his white mother.They have no idea even as you state it here what it is like for you.
Black Americans arnt going to have any idea of what it is like to be raised like Leigh,” Filipino Canadian” , and her very special referances to her Philipine culture give a tremendous humanity to her testimonies and are rich in information, and still,I wouldnt know or black Ameicans wouldnt know what it is like being raised as a Filipino Canadian
Yes, her culture, a very key part of who she is
Black American culture Jefe, would you please give me your idea of what was the manifestaion of internalised racism for the black American jazz musician ? because jazz is one of the highest expresions of black American culture there is , and, we can know jazz understand it, but, if you arnt a black American jazz musician, do you really think you know what it was like to be a black American jazz musician and what form you felt discrimination and racism and what the damages internaly might be ?
I find it extremly interesting that some people here think they know what its like to be raised black American, when its obvious black Americans wouldnt have an idea what it is like to be raised like them.
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Do you really think a black American knows what its like to be raised a black Brazilian? Because there are tremendous differances and nuances…there are tremendous differances on how a black Brazilian deals with racism compared to the black American…and first is, you cant go down there talking the regular black American Civil rights movement activism that we all have been using…it doesnt compute, you might get run out of town by some black Brazilians, while others would understand
Jefe, do you think you know what it is like being raised as a black Brazilian? Because the universal “we are all poc suffering the same discrimination” does not play out the same way, even if the basics have common denominators…because there are CULTURAL DIFFERANCES that you dont know about
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I don’t purport to *KNOW* anything. I am here to share and learn as well. 😛
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“Indeed, marrying a non-white spouse and having mixed race children certainly does not exonerate the white person from continuing to perform and think some very racist acts and thoughts, even (or maybe ESPECIALLY) within the family.”
True, but if there would be more people who would realise that there are no biological “races” as such, outside the racist ideology system, there would be no racism. Or it would be at least very much diminished.
If more and more people would claim to be what they really are, mixed, the whole idea of racism would be come silly, which it is. I personally believe that the whole idea of “pure races” is going to dissappear one day for the simple reason: there are none.
Will there be ethnic rivalries in the future? For sure. Will there be genocides, massmurders, lynchings? Wars and evil men? Yes. But the stupid idea of “pure races” will dissappear one day. And the more so-called different races mix, the better. It brings the change faster.
I saw an documentary of those freedom riders few weeks back. One of the black girls who took part in them said: It was the first time I realised that all whites are not the same. Many whites said the same thing about blacks at the same time when they actually met blacks for the first time in their lives.
Bring down all the fictious racial borders, I say. Refuse to live in racial ghettoes, real or psychological. Refuse to be cathegorized by anyone based on the color of your skin. Anti-racist struggle is every day. It is in every little thing we do. It is in every word we say. And if you refuse to participate in the system, you will chip a small piece of it away. Every act and word does the same. And vice versa. The more you promote the idea of racial purity, the more you enforce the racist system. It is that simple. Go against that.
No, you won’t get a reward, nobody is going to congratulate you, there will be no gala dinners for your honor, but you have done something for real. Sit next to a person who looks different in a bus or subway or park bench. Open discussion. Greet them. Show that for you there are no racial barriers. That is the struggle every day. Black or white, makes no difference, IF you do not make it so. You can choose differently. We all can. I know I try to do it. Every day.
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Yes, I’ve noticed that unwanted attention from BR and I’m sure other commenters have as well.
Do the rest of us a favour, stop creeping around and try to behave like a gentleman for once.
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Indeed, this should be a place to share information, insights and experiences.
US-centric runs both ways. On the one hand, people in the USA might believe that anyone outside could not understand what has been going on in the USA. On the other hand, those in the USA might not be attuned to pick up how other places deal with it as it might be viewed as “irrelevant”.
That is unfortunate.
I am happy to say that my upbringing in the USA did help elevate my awareness in navigating the racial / ethnic label minefield elsewhere, but there are other insights that can be learned in other societies that might be useful to people in the USA as well.
That is why, even when I was in the USA, I wanted to understand how the other places handle it, eg, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, UK, France, South Africa, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Macau, Australia, New Zealand, even China and Japan, as well as Hawaii vs. Mainland USA. The more I learn, the more I can put the situation in the USA and elsewhere in perspective.
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Bulanik,
Sorry to hear about your Dad. I’m terrible in these situations so I’m just going to shut up about it now.
———————
I don’t know what is going on here, things have gotten a bit strange(maybe I haven’t been paying attention). It also serves as a reminder that I need to be mindful of what I share here.
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“BR,
I find it extremly interesting that some people here think they know what its like to be raised black American, when its obvious black Americans wouldn’t have an idea what it is like to be raised like them.
Jefe, do you think you know what it is like being raised as a black Brazilian? Because the universal “we are all poc suffering the same discrimination” does not play out the same way, even if the basics have common denominators…because there are CULTURAL DIFFERANCES that you dont know about”
Linda says,
I think you are missing the point of this post, BR. It’s not about “not understanding black Americans” or “knowing about black Americans/history” or them black/brown foreign history or culture…
It’s already been pointed out by some posters that the difference in upbringing and cultures is what sometimes causes misunderstandings when dealing with each other – you are not pointing out anything new.
This post is about, as Abagond wrote in the post:
“Abagond@ I have no issue with Danzy Senna, but the other two did the very thing I am talking about. This is not about me imposing the One Drop Rule on mixed-race people, as some think, this is about them being low lifes” and selling out to whiteness.”
What we’ve been discussing is how the One-Drop Rule is definitely still being imposed onto bi- and multiracial people by majority of American society (both black and white) and how they feel about being mixed-race in the black community.
Such as, whenever mixed-race people discuss their ethnicity in a mostly black American or pro-black environment, they are made to feel like “traitors” or seen as being disloyal to their black heritage for even bringing up their other racial heritages.(Tiger Woods is in a class all by himself, I do think he is uncomfortable with his black heritage and favors his Asian) Most multi-racials want to embrace both or all.
and the foreign posters (both black/multiracial) on this board are talking about their interaction and feelings of marginalization within the black American community, both online and in real life.
“Makeba on Sun 21 Oct 2012 at 08:06:50
So biracials may feel torn between being looked at as ‘black’ by society but not being a part of the traditional concept of ‘blackness’ in the US.”
…… really comes close to defining my existence as a Nigerian-American, It’s frustrating not being “black enough” for the black Americans, but also being way to American/westernized to really be Nigerian, even if I do have the option of getting a Nigerian passport.
But just because a white person can’t immediately tell the differences between a black American and I, does not mean we are the same. Our struggle against the effects of institutional racism, and our goal of pursuing “life, liberty and happiness” are the same. However, this is where my cultural similarities,etc. with most black Americans end. And that is ok, because black people are not a monolith!”
Please remember that this post is talking about “Intra” group dynamics
No one is condemning black Americans or saying anything to put them down but these dynamics do indeed exist and this post I believe was made in order to discuss them.
And as Jefe pointed out, he grew up in the black community, so he has quite an insight on his interactions as a mixed-race person dealing with another minority group.
We all come from societies that deal with colourism, and trust me, it’s pretty much the same on any shore but there are differences based on the countries, and this blog allows us to discuss these difference, just like we discuss black vs. white topics.
If you want to address the topic of “WHY” black America continues to use the One-Drop Rule, then please elaborate. You’ve already alluded that it’s political.
I know that the census/federal government uses “monoracial” statistics to boost numbers to determine funding for “racial” groups who are seen as minorities so that different programs receive money, or to classify corporations, and verify others are operating within the Equal Opportunity guidelines, so I understand that aspect and importance having a strong “black” presence in the census.
But this topic is still a “hot” potatoe to many black people and it is typically not discussed if it can be avoided….this is the “taboo” subject within most black/brown societies.
CNN is going to be doing an upcoming show with Soledad O’Brien called “WHO is black in America”…I’m not sure when it’s airing.
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@Linda,
Really i am not trying to say anything against your position; just wanting to discuss, but i am a bit confused:
On one handhalfl black people can claim that black people force the ODR on them, then in another breath these same half blacks claim that black people mock fun at the texture of their hair, their proper speech, “lighter” skin etc…
So i am left to wonder why there seems to be a huge contradiction? Offline i have not experienced any rancor between half blacks and blacks…(i am noting that this is my personal experience) in fact the few half black people i have known have actually aligned themselves with the cultural and social values of other black people–but through their OWN choice. No one forced them to do anything.
Again this has just been my offline experience.
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^That should read on one hand half black
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“Bulanik,
The horrifying detail is that most of Argentina’s original black population was killed fighting for that country! and that killing of black men for Argentina’s freedom continued after slavery was abolished there in 1853.
This destruction-by-combat is now recognized as:
deliberate policy sanctioned by the state.”
Linda says,
Thank you, Bulanik, for doing the research and bringing this up.
I’ve always loved hearing Argentina’s “Italienized” Spanish, it has a beautiful cadence and flow. I worked with a few Argentineans in Europe and actually learned about the country’s history of slavery from one of them (he was into Reggae and kept insisting he was part-black even though he didn’t look it, so he exlained “why” — that the Africans intermixed their way into near-extinction)
Also, many of the African soldiers in the Argentinean army escaped to Brazil or they defected to Paraguay. I have to look this up but I believe Paraguay actually had a policy in place to protect the land rights of mestizo (mixed-race) people with Indigenous Indians and/or Africans in Paraguay from having their lands stolen from them by the Europeans…don’t remember, I will look this up
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@Bulanik,
I am just using the terms that some biracial people who have one black parent have called themselves around me…
I had a friend in college who called herself “half black”. Her mom is black and dad is white. Other times she would refer to herself as “the black girl” when she was describing situations that came up with the white girls at her boyfriend’s school. I’m only speculating but maybe this was due in part from them not recognizing her white parent.
All in all though she never seemed to have a disdain for black people. The only times where i have encountered some misunderstandings between black people and biracial people with one black parent is online or while watching t.v. talk shows…
On the local news in my city a biracial girl was saying that the black girls at her school taunt her about her speech (says she was acting white), but that she felt pressure to fit in with the black kids. They were doing a segment on bullying. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen, i am just saying it seems to be contradictory…
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“phoebeprunelle
@Linda,
Really i am not trying to say anything against your position; just wanting to discuss, but i am a bit confused:
On one handhalfl black people can claim that black people force the ODR on them, then in another breath these same half blacks claim that black people mock fun at the texture of their hair, their proper speech, “lighter”skin etc…
So i am left to wonder why there seems to be a huge contradiction? in fact the few half black people i have known have actually aligned themselves with the cultural and social values of other black people–but through their OWN choice. No one forced them to do anything.”
Linda says,
I can only speak for myself—when I first came to USA, I had to deal with being an immigrant but to my dismay, I also had to deal with being mixed race.
(and in America at the time 70’s/80’s, my mixture was considered unusual) –mom is Jamaican black/white/chinese, dad was Jamaican (black)/Honduran mestizo (Spanish, native Indian) His mixture confused people because he looked like a very dark-skinned Indian (from India) and mom looks Eurasion with a slight tan but she is more in touch with her African heritage because her mother was a Maroon (Africans who were not enslaved and fought against the British). My family ranges the spectrum in skin colour and hair texture.
Needless to say, I’m obviously more than just black. (In Jamaica, I’m called “brown” or at times, “coolie”). When black Americans ask me “what I am?” and I would say “mixed — the typical response I got was, “well, in this country, you’re still considered black” because you have black ancestry – this was my introduction to the One-drop rule.
So, from this experience, I learned it was best to just say I’m “black” if I wanted to just be a part of the group and not feel like an outsider—now, here is the but, I also felt like I was treated differently because I was mixed.
One small example:
When I was younger, I was into fashion/hair and I loved putting in braids and doing hair—black women were scared to death to let me touch their hair because they didn’t trust me 🙂 I was told “ I didn’t understand their hair problems/needs because I got “good hair” (mind you, not my words), so I had to prove myself and demonstrate I knew which end of the hot comb to use …
I didn’t take this negatively but this is just to highlight some of the small nuances of when I would be put into the “other” category. This was one of the nicer moments. I’ve had some ugly experiences as well.
I would meet other mixed-race people from time to time and I found that we had these similar experiences of being “one-dropped” and with being “othered”. But I do think, that bi-racial/mixed Americans have a harder time because the black/white American community/culture is part of their heritage and they want to be accepted by one or both.
Like you, most bi-racial/mixed-race Americans I’ve ever met always called themselves “black”; most of them said that they had negative experiences if they were raised in a white community and felt affinity to their black heritage; but at the same time, they felt conflicted because they also had negative experiences in the black community, such as being teased for being an Oreo.
In the US, I already had a built-in network in the Caribbean community, so I wasn’t emotionally invested in the black (or white) American community. I do love meeting people, so I did want to feel like I could connect with the people I worked with or met socially – if I met cool people, then we hung out; if someone wanted to give me grief for being an immigrant or not being “black enough”, then we didn’t have to talk.
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http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Blacks-in-Argentina-officially-a-few-but-2559399.php
Linda, Im confused, I thought you described yourself as Jamaican and another Spanish speaking country…and you live in South Florida…is that right also?
I hope you understand , I said I am in agreement of not accepting being discriminated against , or,marginalised, I am saying try to understand the origins of some of the atitudes you may have bumped up against ( if anything to fortify your knowledge its not your burden to have to agree with certain points of veiw)…and it is black American culture…yes , culture, that isnt race, what everyone sais doesnt exist..these are the real terms we are dealing with,
black American culture, jazz invented at the time of the Jim Crow laws, forces classicly trained jazz musicians to play with blues players, the drum set is invented and huge amount of grooves and beats that were banned from the culture come pouring out, the first jazz group ever recorded was a white jazz group who said black people never invented jazz, black American dances took over the world , like the Cake walk and the Charleston, white groups made the big money, they invented Tin Pan Alley, to write songs for the new beats and dances that jazz brought to the table, Louis Armstrong was an icon as a trumpet player and so many great singers after him said they copied his style, Armstrong was the son of a prostitute, he lived in an orphanage and when he would pass through he would take a nap there
jump skip past a story of white big bands becoming the big stars of the era, playing arrangements of essentialy Armstrong licks,the discrimination the traveling black bands would experiance in the South, etc,
and hit the be bop era where really you will find some of the absolute highest leval genius musicians you could find in America (yes, in Brazil, I know its a big musical world) , there contributions will be studied into the century, a huge amount are drug addicts, plauged by a racist society, that certainly would be the definition of internalised racism in anyones book, these are musical giants, this is black American culture , you cant seperate it from the racism in the society they lived in..these artists are part of a lightning rod of awareness and transparentness to this struggle…jazz doesnt represent black Americans, it is a window to the soul of black American culture
jump skip to Malcolm X, , , Martin Luthor King, and how all that represented a giant change …it is in this area that some forms of thought evolved that all of a sudden politicises, an aproach to how they might think about “mixed race”…of course among many other thngs. I did say some forms of thought evolved…I dont beleive every black American doesnt accept Obama , because he is bi racial, what ever that means.I may be wrong, I dont think every black American pays attention to golf…its just that , nothing to dimminish anyone elses pain or struggle , the black American struggle, if anything, is an example of, people had to fight for every inch to get forward, and the gains were not given without , for sure on demonstration in black American culture some kind of price that had to be paid , and in that process , some atitudes were formed , along with many other directions that have nothing to do with that type of attitude . If there is an attitude by anyone , whether black or white, that affects your sensibilities , as a bi racial person, bi national , I totaly support you not accepting it….this is extremly long winded and nutschell anemic about history,its just it is about culture, not about race, isnt it?
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Linda, your post came in while I was typing, thanks for your story…
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Bulanik, since you addressed me, I humbly hope for this post to be able to addres you back. I am sorry for your loss , if in any way I stressed you, it was not intentional…
I am not stalking you, I am very narrow and direct about the places I have challenged things you have said .I dont follow you from thread to thread, there are specific definite points . And, I am only trying to follow your request to not address you directly.So, I always have to have this strange tit for tat that you so willingly indulge in, forgive me if what I am saying is too .
You say things I disagree with ,some very powerfully , and I thought this was vigorous , sometims emotional issues. I apeal to Abagond to warn me if he perceives Im stalking you in any way…it is not my intention …and not my intention to stress you with your loss, and I will certainly do my best to not do that
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I am a self-identified multiracial and black & Creole American; my identity is a unique one in a family from the palest blonde members to the darkest identifying as Black (note the capitalization). My experiences were shaped growing up outside the contexts of black community; although I never get mistaken for white I still have an ambiguity (even though my skin is quite dark) that like it or not gives me racial privilege.
Regardless I am a black person; I align myself with the black and minority struggle for acceptance and equality even if that means assimilation, so long as its a personal choice I do not care.
Some people have it in their minds that my decision to see myself as mixed race is an attempt to get out of blackness and closer to whiteness both literally and symbolically, I will be the first to admit that that was the case at 14 but now it is an acknowledgement of my experiences in this world and I use my privileges of race and class to challenge white hegemony; which comes to a shock to some people both white and black, I am not following the prescribed route it seems.
What Tiger Woods is doing is no different than Donyale Luna; he is trying to be “beyond” race when by the looks of it continues to subsume him. I find that his decisions are meaningful and very optimistic but beyond anything else naive and ill-suited for someone like him, a flagbearer of colouredness in a white dominated sports world and setting
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Linda, I live in a country in South America with 100 million Afro descendants, the estimates of Afro Descendants in Agentina is as large as 1miilion and as small as 10,000, that is why I say there are pockets of Afro descendants in Argentina. Huge amount of black solders from Brazil were sent to the war against Paraguai also.
The context I argued with you about that was when you used Argentina as an example of assimilation that could be compared to the Arab assimilation of slaves. In Zanzibar in the 1800″s, there were 50,000 slaves a day being shipped off across the Red Sea…I think in that context, my description was acurate
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Bulanik, I would humbly like to address you once more in context of you addressing me.
I challenge your arguments I dont agree with, like being attacked over and over by the semantics on words I use a lot like “sub Sahara Africa”, which is on no international forum as offensive
With all due respect, I catagoricly reject that I belittled you as a black woman on this blog, and you have never proved that I have, and I have asked you repeatedly to demonstrate it, yet you have only orchestrated a campain against me about it without ever showing really why.
If you are going to make false acuasations at me i am not going to leave that alone
The notion I am stalking you is false, you make provacative statements that deserve to be challenged.But, there are huge amounts of threads that I dont counter you at all.The notion that there is any thing perverted in the nature of how I have addressed you is a dangerous one,and I suggest people who are engaging in this behaviour with me should cease it
This is Abagond’s blog, I again look to him about direction of whether I am stalking you or not and will do everyting in my power to follow the rules of this blog
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I apreciete you sharing your story , Levisiah, and you too Linda
I beleive the “mixed race” individual has a right to express themselves any way they want to. And they have a right to tap into all of the ethnic heritages in their background, especialy because there is so much misinformation and obsticles thrown against them.
And here is why culture is so important. The culture is what holds the force that can be tapped into…if race is not true, it is culture that is the key word we are talking about. And the person with many ethnic backgrounds has those fontes to explore and gain from. And even more reason why its positive to try to understand other cultures that we are not from , especialy if we are living in them and we come from somewhere else.I have lived in Brazil 26 years, and where many things i have assimilated in a big way, the more I am here the more i dont know what it like to grow up Brazilian, white or black, but, I am making a herculian effort to try to understand. In Brazil, the good things I like ,come in such abundance and beauty, that I can endure the bad things I dont like or dont understand that happen to me, but, wanting to understand it is a very high priority for me.
And culture is what is supressed and buried and destroyed by the dominating cultures
I absolutly support “mixed race ” people not accepting being marginilised..anywhere in the world and for sure in the USA, and, Jefe, i agree, its changing
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“B. R.
The context I argued with you about that was when you used Argentina as an example of assimilation that could be compared to the Arab assimilation of slaves. In Zanzibar in the 1800″s, there were 50,000 slaves a day being shipped off across the Red Sea…I think in that context, my description was acurate”
Linda says,
If I remember correctly, in that discussion, you had asked “what happened to all the Africans?”
“B. R.
on Wed 3 Oct 2012 at 14:32:45
About the Arab slave trade, Im just asking what really happened? What happened to all the millions of slaves that crossed the Red Sea…the information is not there…the Islamist scholar I brought in readily acknowledges that.”
My answer of “assimilation” as a process was mentioned because assimilation/ intermixing and historical omission is what assisted the disappearence of black people in Argentina (and possibly Arab countries), so my answer was related to that queston, not a question of size or numbers.
There’s more afro-descendents in Brazil than in the all of North America, so when it comes to population and numbers, I don’t think Brazil should be used as a comparison to anyone because everyone else will always fall short 🙂
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This dicussion really brings into view the power of the white supremacist/ racist social political structure. Good to get the information about the argentine genocide campaign too. To hear that the blacks there also helped it along by breeding and just not putting their self interest as a marginalized group was sad but expected.
someone said after a lenghty description they “aren’t just black”, as if black is bad – and it is too in a white supremacist system- but gave no mention on how restrictive the black label is on black people as well. We all know the stereotypes blacks are supposed to fit but seems like no one cares blacks are restricted. I know people are not saying what herneith said but it really does apear that way.
Maybe if someone could give a logical reason.why a mixed race person, communicating to other people who treats the race word as some real thing, should identify as black then people will see its not about enforcing the one drop rule? It is about clearly outlining the power dynamics in effect in the world and where you are going to exist while operating in this horrible system which really isn’t our fault while being our fault at the same time.if that makes sense
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To explain a bit more: this discussion has the atrociries of genocide and white parents being racist to their own children but black people being mean or stupid or limiting is the problem? It isn’t right but blacks, just like mixed race folk are victims of this system. Why are blacks so heavily scrutinized when they have the least power over life outcomes?
I do understand, truly, what people are saying but I think it is shortsighted. I have had blacks mistreat me as well in seemingly racist fashion.
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What I think is interesting is, as a foreigner living in another country , that I didnt speak the language when I got there , and raising my “mixed race “, bi national son , the things that bumped my head and my son’s worse , because he really had to go into the school system and young age hiarcial issues, were ones that came from political agenda atitudes, that came from the same era that some of the atitudes towards mixed race people became a political issue.
Since I started to bump my head on the things that affected me personaly because of who I was , I researched as much as I could , trying to find out why this was happening. Of course , the more I try to find out , the more elusive the answer is , but , much was based on political attitudes under preasure .But, its a never ending battle to try to understand why these things are there
Linda , I think some of the conflicts you run into, and some atitudes about mixed race people , are traces of political agenda attitudes that filter down into some peoples beleifs…There was a time when Obama’s bi racial mix wouldnt have been an issue in the black American community, but, for sure the white American community .Of course, at that time, he couldnt have run for president……
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People
I think I need to reflect on my heavy handedness…where I will deny belittling anyone for being a black woman, I dont deny that I have an edge at times and for sure could be catagorised as rude
Im going to not post for a couple of weeks and come back in when Peanut gets back from Salvador, because that is a discusion Id love to participate in.
Its my pleasure to reflect a little and come back to say more on a blog I respect a lot
be back soon, tchau
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I know the term “Coolie” and as far as I can deduct it means a racially mixed person with light brown skin and dark wavy/curly hair who has very visible South Asian ancestry (where I’m from Naveen’s and Anchal’s description would be “Indian” and not “Coolie”). Maybe it’s my generation but I didn’t hear it used with malice. Thinking of it now, I’ve only recalled this used as a descriptor of someone who is an unknown foreigner . Like:
“One of the Guyanese men was asking about you.”
“Which one?”
“The tall, Coolie one.”
Usually nationality is used as a descriptor first. And once people learn your name that’s what they’ll use because most people know each other. Well that’s just my personal experience 🙂
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I was probably a teenager when I first heard the term ‘coolie’, and I’ve recognized from that time onward that it was a term used to describe Asian slaves / indentured servants, but mostly that it is used as a pejorative term for Indo-Caribbean persons (I have been aware of the nature of the arrival of Indians in the Caribbean for some time and, sorry to say, had to school my Jamaican ex on the subject).
I was quite surprised the first time I saw ‘coolie’ casually used as a descriptor for persons of Afro-Indian descent / mixed descent. This was on a Black British message board — before that time I had always thought of the term ‘coolie’ as a pejorative term, in the Americas, for Indo-Caribbeans only, and not as a description for a racially mixed person.
I’m thinking that perhaps the newly freed Blacks in the Caribbean heard the British using the term ‘coolie’ to describe the incoming Indian workers, and picked up its usage while never really knowing what it actually means or that it could be perceived as an insult.
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“Son
To explain a bit more: this discussion has the atrociries of genocide and white parents being racist to their own children but black people being mean or stupid or limiting is the problem? It isn’t right but blacks, just like mixed race folk are victims of this system. Why are blacks so heavily scrutinized when they have the least power over life outcomes?”
Linda says,
Son, all we’re doing in this post is putting the flashlight on certain issues within the black community, the same way we, the majority of the time, glare the spotlight on the white community.
This discussion is not meant to hurt anyone, only to turn the conversation inwards for a change.
Being that black and mixed race people face the same racism from the white community, you have to remember that everyone knows which side of the fence they have to sit on when it comes to dealing with white racism…there is definitely solidarity when it comes to that.
But we as black/brown people have our own internalized racism to deal with and the issue I highlighted concerning mixed-race people in the US is only one of them.
Black/brown people have to be willing to openly look at ourselves and our communities and see the Grey spots as well. There is nothing wrong with scrutinizing ourselves and our problems/taboos sometimes, that’s how growth and change happens — critique should be a healthy exercise and if anything, hopefully generate understanding.
And bite your tongue…black/brown people do have the power to affect change and life outcomes – if people in the 1960’s believed what you just said, then Civil Rights movement would not have happened, nor independence for Jamaica and many other Imperialist held colonial countries.
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“fiamma blu
I’m thinking that perhaps the newly freed Blacks in the Caribbean heard the British using the term ‘coolie’ to describe the incoming Indian workers, and picked up its usage while never really knowing what it actually means or that it could be perceived as an insult.”
Linda says,
Bulanik
Legion
fiamma blu
I have to admit that I’m guilty of using the word “coolie” casually as a descriptive word. I got so used to hearing the term “Coolie gyal” in reference to myself, that it even rolls off My tongue when trying to describe someone who is actually Indian or who looks like they have Indian heritage.
I never took it negatively when it was said to or about me because I knew it wasn’t said with malice or bad intentions (at least not in Jamaica) even though I knew historically, it was used as a negative label to describe the Indian slaves/indentured workers.
Other Jamaican all-encompassing loving descriptors: “Chinee” and “Syrian” – these two covers the rest of the mixes that don’t fall neatly into the “Brown” category.
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Alright Linda, that sounds ok to me – a small but though- I don’t think it is false to say that blacks have the least power over outcomes. The civil rights movement produced some legal protection against being mistreated as a nonwhite(or as a woman among others).Even if it was successful, which is arguable, we have seen the erosion of black political power and the lack of control in enforcing said laws. You are right though- a can do attitude is required – I never want to undermine that. Being that blacks aren’t even the most benefitted from civil rights speaks to the lack of power over anything really on a macro level.
Jamaica is a better example of lifting the yoke so to speak. Somewhat at the very least. I don’t think black americans have done so well here. Most of the things blacks have today have been the same going back before the 60’s. There has always been working class blacks after slavery, even if things like unemployment are always at least a magnitude worse for blacks .Things are so fluid though, gain in one area, like size of middle class, but lose in other areas, like lost political/financial clout due to population changes/tailoring in major metropolitan areas.
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“Bulanik,
Sure, the word can be said in a good-natured way. Without malice, certainly.
And, sure, it CAN be ‘loving’, but it is the Indian version of saying “niqqer”, which can be loving and good natured, too. Right?
Coolie is unlike — totally — descriptors such as “Chinee” and “Syrian”, which in fact describe nationalities.”
Linda says,
Bulanik, I guess when you put it that way, I can see your point.
You’re right, being that I have no Indian heritage, I did not take the word seriously or personally because I knew people were describing my physical characteristics because “coolie” has always been the word everyone used to verbally describe anyone who looked-like/are Indian descended.
So, I get your point, even though the word “coolie” is NOT used with the intent to cause pain (the way the N-word is used by white people with intent to cause pain) — the word is still viewed as a negative word in the Jamaican Indian community because of it’s negative historical connotation.
(I say Jamaica because I know in Trinidad and Guyana, there is bad feelings sometimes between the Afro and Indian community – so, is the word “coolie” used in Trinidad or Guyana with intent to cause pain?)
I’m glad you brought it up because by turning the tables, you have shown that just because a popular word is used by the majority, that does not mean that using the word is right.
I do have cousins that are part Indian but we’ve never really discussed it–I never knew it was considered a negative word….this is how people learn about how someone from a different group feels…have to talk about these subjects and bring them to the light.
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I didn’t know the origin of the word and I never got the impression that having Indian ancestry was somehow less than ideal. I thought the term was derived from the phrase “cool skin” or lighter skinned, it was never discussed and I can’t say I’ve given the word a lot of thought til now. Knowing this, I can definitely see the parallels with “the n word” though.
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I want to address Bulanik too.
I really thought it was great to hear that bit about Argentina and other places too. That is the type of comment you often make that I always like because I learn something I didn’t know. That comment and the fact that jefe , I think, said that he understood that a white parent wouldn’t adequately address certain things like racism are central to the identity discussion. I also characterized the white parent as being racist.
Again, in a perfect world people wouldn’t even use the races as descriptors of identity because they aren’t made for that and do a poor job of explaining identity. Race is good only (just about) for practicing racism imo. Race tells a person your caste. Which is like a shorthand way of telling someone your politics, where you place yourself and, more importantly, where you are placed in society based on what white supremacists have codified- into law even.
It is a trick of communication and context that makes it seem like a mixed race person is disowning the bad bits of ancestry when describing themselves racially. First, the context is a white supremacist dominated world that has castes that are strictly enforced. Second is I think people who aren’t close to you actually do not want to know what you are. They are more interested, at first, to know what team you play for. You can genuinely be aiming for accuracy about your ancestry but the person you are speaking to, most of the time, will think you are playing up something, minizing blackness or outright disowning it. We all know that there is a lot of history of people doing just that in order to escape living as a black. This too is the context. Just like most people do not care to hear how you are doing when they greet you. It is not right, but it is there.
Any mistreatment is not right, nor should it be excused or condoned. I am trying to highlight that these conflicts and the artificial limits on racial identity are symptoms and reactions of white supremacy. The fact is everyone’s identity is limited racially because of the caste system in place. Also look at the doll test or implicit bias test. If people are carrying that much self hate and anti blackness because of white supremacy we will have and should expect all manner of conflict, even from those who should understand. This is without even factoring in systemic injustice and negative personal experience which would lead someone to mistreat others. Because of the context of society it will continue to be unsafe to do or say many things.
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^ Do we have a consensus that something along these lines should also be part of the “race talk” that we have with our kids?
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I’ve followed and listened to many of the comments made in this thread. Some of which have been more informative and educational than others. But what really seems to be avoided is not the issue of acknowledging who is “mixed” and who coming from a perceived “mixed” background is being marginalised by those more visibly perceived as Black. Its the whole of issue of defining who we are as a planetary people.
That definition of “who” and “what we are” can only come from ourselves. By doing this we can choose to exclude or include others from that definition. The erroneous belief system of there being multiple distinct separate biological formed races is littered throughout many comments here. Even though a few people have tried consistently to challenge this (myself included).
Its this avoided question of “who” and “what we are” as a consensus accepted view of ourselves as valid human beings which needs to be addressed. And is, co-incidentally, the discussion we need to have with our own families and children.
Everything else becomes a game of blame, self-recrimination and self-victim-hood.
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@kwamla:
While I do not always agree with you on everything, on this one I do. I have teached my kid that there is only one human race but many cultures. We are all the same race. I am aware of racism around me but like I’ve said many times, I refuse to be in it. It is my personal desicion. It’s work, it is not easy, but that is the only way forward.
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People like you Abagond are the ones who make life hell for mixed race folks. Who the hell are you to decide what someone is? Their genes decide that. Tiger says he isn’t black because he really is NOT black. He is a mix. You might as well say he is Japanese, or whatever he is mixed with. The one drop rule doesn’t apply to reality. So what if some morons subscribe to that belief, it doesn’t make it true. You know, sort of like religion, but that’s neither here nor there.
Tiger is not black. Stop trying to claim him. Get over it.
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@afroatheist
Why should blacks get rid of the One Drop Rule? As black people, we don’t wanna create a caste system within our own race. Identifying mulattos as black is problematic, because, in a white or other dominated society, they will be placed over real black people. We forget that the other race covets the mixed child from biracial relationships just as much as we do. It was comminplace for whitemen to have sexual relations with mulatto and quadroon women during and after slavery. Yes, they look black on the outside, have brown or caramel skin, curly/wavy hair, and all of that. But, we can’t continue to use them as racial pinatas just because blackmen on this planet have turned against themselves and blackwomen. Blackmen who father biracial children need to stop the bulls**t. Whitewomen and other women running around saying they’re having black babies is insulting to blackwomen, they need to stop it. They think they can create an entire new race of black people without blackwomen…Hell No! And the same goes for blackwomen as well who think the same, both are dead wrong. If a mulatto wants to identify as black, that’s their call. In the meantime, we as blackmen need to stop trying to reverse “Mother Nature.” Black is a black father and mother, anything less than that, is not black!!!
Tyrone
Black Eros…Black Brown & Gold
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These two statements contradict each other. First you say it is their call. The second statement says that it is NOT their call. You have done it for them.
That illustrates the problem.
Regarding Tiger, he admitted that he is Asian, but also African-American and Caucasian and Native American. I never saw him deny any of it outright. But we cannot expect him to act in any way to satisfy anyone else’s racial agenda. It really is not our call.
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Exactly ^^^ He never claimed he wasn’t at least part black. He didn’t outright deny his black ancestry. He told the truth. And that still pissed people off…
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Seeing that most of the people commenting on this blog are non-African American (including Abagond), I find it funny that everyone is talking about African Americans as if they just *know*. I won’t go on, but I will say this: All of you are gravely wrong.
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@Jefe
As i stated in the previous post, we as black people need to stop trying to make folk who are half-black, all black. Any black man or woman that brings forth a biracial child should keep it 100…Period! The child is biracial, mixed-race, mulatto, etc. I’m tired of non-black spanish folk calling themselves the n-word a million times when they’re in the company of black people as if they’re black. Some folk on this blog say they’re 1/3 black, 1/4 black, Why? What’s it all about? Don’t say you love black when you ain’t black…Real Talk! Look Black is not sufficient. Folk pretending to be black does nothing for the black race. If you’re not black right this minute, you’re a waste of time. If black is that vital to your existence on this planet, Be Black! Let’s take this argument all the way to the end. Whitemen, give us your daughters, Asian men, give us your daughters, etc. If neither is willing to sacrifice their treasure, they need to get their noses out of my behind and that of other blackmen…Bottomline!!!
Black Black
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Just ran across this
http://mixedraceamerica.blogspot.hk/2013/01/happy-new-year-mixed-race-america.html
The blogger provided at least two links
Dr. Maria Root’s Bill of Rights for People of Mixed Heritage (which I have provided links for also before)
and
this one from racialicious.
http://www.racialicious.com/2009/12/08/100-cablinasian-getting-the-race-facts-right-on-tiger-woods/
I can denounce people’s behavior, but I can never begrudge how a person wishes to self-identify. THAT is not a character flaw.
The last half of the racialicious post is copied here:
“And considering the pigheaded way that both white and black America treat him, I’m starting to understand potentially why that is. Maybe Tiger Woods doesn’t talk about race because no one really wants to listen to his experience as the mixed race child of mixed race parents. Instead white and black America insist that Woods choose one or the other. It’s bad enough that people are reading out that tired old script about how mixed race black folks always turn out to be race traitors. But in Woods’ case its not even the right script.
His racial background is not the same as Mariah Carey’s, Alicia Keys’, Drake’s or Barack Obama’s. He is not “biracial” where “biracial” is code for “black and white.” He doesn’t have a white parent. His immediate family members are black, Asian, Native and white. And also, he doesn’t really look like a black man. While I find physiognomical discussions kind of gross, Tiger’s face is actually very Southeast Asian. Know any Thai folks? Filipinos? Malaysians? That’s what Tiger looks like. He’s designated as black because Americans are not particularly familiar with Southeast Asian looks, similar to how my Arab friends are often thought to be Latin@ when they are in the Southern US.
Is it sort of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic to be complaining that when folks discriminate against Woods’ mixed raceness, they’re not getting the races right? Maybe. But this inability to see more than two tones it’s pretty indicative of America’s race problem, and the trials that some mixed race folk deal with everyday.
When you are biracial, it’s hard enough for our racist culture to understand how that works. When you throw two more races in the mix, North American culture’s collective head explodes, and just chooses to decide that two of the races don’t exist.
F. commented on last week’s post:
What’s that joke about when Tiger succeeds at something, the media harps on about him being a part-white “Cablinasian”, but when he screws up, suddenly he’s just plain “black”?
I’m sure it is true that the media considers Woods more black when he screws up.
But the insistence on designating Woods as solely black – and getting mad when he tries to articulate his ethnic heritage in a way that feels true to him – is about more than media bias towards black crime. It’s about our need to simplify all complex racial phenomenons into the binary of black and white, effectively erasing anyone who doesn’t fit inside.
Tiger Woods seems like a jackass. He cheated on his wife in a particularly flagrant way. But that’s no reason to deny him the right to self-identify.
Even jackasses should get to tell us themselves who they are.”
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Found a good discussion (albeit somewhat Canadian focused, but comparing the Canadian and American experience).
They mention about the experience of Tiger Woods and Barack Obama and how it might have been different in Canada. The panel seems to agree that the US has a more immutable monoracial “tick the box” mentality than Canada.
(http://youtu.be/CmnmWU-V4vo)
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A relative based in the US said that National Geographic magazine’s 125th issue features an article and set of photographs of mixed race people titled the “Changing Face of America: We’ve become a country where race is no longer so black or white.”
The article (by Lisa Funderburg) points out that the increasing numbers of people describing themselves as “multi-racial” not only reflect increased racial diversity but also changes in self-identification.
In 2000, the US Census allowed people to tick more than one box to describe the racial background. That year nearly 7 million people selected multiple races then, and in 2010, 32% more people chose that option. That figure may continue to grow.
An excerpt:
The article:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/10/changing-faces/funderburg-text
The photographs:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/10/changing-faces/schoeller-photography
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What the average American will look like by 2050 according to National Geographic, apparently from the same article Bulanik is talking about:
http://abagond.tumblr.com/post/63391514708/ghanaian-and-a-half-vistale-according-to
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We have been seeing these articles for well over a decade now, but does America still think of itself in terms of white and black? Maybe we will have to wait and see when 50% of the population ticks themselves as “multiracial”?
Or maybe we will still have “white” and “black”, just that more on each side will have more complicated racial mixtures.
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@Abagond,
What I envision what people in the US will look at the turn of the next century will be more like the Eloi in the film The Time Machine (2002) – most of them were light to medium brown sturdily built multiracial people, about half of whom were at least part Asian or Mestizo (the rest were mostly part-black biracial) – maybe what descendants of 21st century New Yorkers might look like. Contrast that to The Time Machine (1960) when all the Eloi were blond haired and blue-eyed and complete idiots.
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http://www.racialicious.com/2009/12/21/revisiting-100-cablinasian-6-thoughts-on-tiger-woods/
One of the best discussions I found on this topic
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I’m mixed race, half-white and half-Asian and I identify as mixed race and don’t distance myself from being Asian. It is really hard for me to be deferential to whites because white people never claim me as one of their own. Some people think I’m white, but most white people can just tell I’m not truly white and treat me as such. Many white people just say I’m Asian. That’s because many white people do not see mixed race. Being white is like belonging to an exclusive country club that denies membership to people they see unfit. And as official members of the white race, it is unanimous that anyone who is clearly not wholly caucasian is not white at all. Barack Obama is probably the only mixed race black man in America that most white Americans actually consider to be biracial. This is because calling Obama biracial in being half-white makes whites feel slightly more at ease. But if Obama was a bus driver, most white people would just call him a black man.
But when white people openly reject you as not being one of them, I do not kiss their ass. In the rare occasions when I am surrounded by nothing but white people, I do not bite my tongue and do not stand for corny stale racist jokes about blacks, Asians, Latinos ect. which they seem to throw around at whim when they let their hair down. I like to be in situations where I’m around a mixed crowd of people where white people are not the overwhelming majority either that or a minority-majority scenario. Being surrounded by white people in a social situation as a POC often feels oppressive. I don’t know how tokens grin and bear it.
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“Being surrounded by white people in a social situation as a POC often feels oppressive. I don’t know how tokens grin and bear it.”
I had a class in community college where this white girl spoke in class and said something like, “we’re all white in here.” I was like WTF? and turned and looked at this Korean American girl sitting near me. She just gave me an embarrassed look. That’s not the only time things like that have happened.
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“Six things not to say to a mixed-race person. And some personal notes”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/13/1377533/-Six-things-not-to-say-to-a-mixed-race-person-And-some-personal-notes
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“What’s Radical About “Mixed Race”?”
http://www.nyu-apastudies.org/2012/event/whats-radical-about-mixed-race/
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Sample of tweets covering the event above by @afroslav on April 20, 2015 on #MixedRaceRadical and #MixedRaceRad (click “all” comments):
“Morning: 1st generation was mixed people getting personal, this new generation is about the political & the intersectional #mixedraceradical”
“Sexton: Mixedness can’t just be about porosity/mutability of race but also about which races are privileged #mixedraceradical”
Sexton: Problack multi studies might have to just be black studies #mixedraceradical
Mahtani: Mixed race bodies are commodified to perpetuate status quo #mixedraceradical
Sexton: Mixedness as a way to bring U.S. econ into global flows with global south (Brazil, South Africa) #mixedraceradical
“Mahtani: Big alliances unlikely. Sexton: sure, there is room for global analysis if nuanced. #mixedraceradical”
“Mahtani: As money goes to mixed race studies, what’s happening to black/indigenous/etc studies #mixedracerad”
“Mahtani: Canadian mixed ness is about colonialism in fancy cultural framing #mixedracerad”
“Mahtani: Mixed race studies is too focused on present and ignores historical structural racism #mixedracerad”
“Mahtani: #checkyourprivilege mixed people #mixedracerad”
“Mahtani: Mixedness had been used to perpetuate white supremacy and neoliberalism via ignoring history and focusing on indiv #mixedracerad”
“Mahtani: Only those who look ambiguous enough are useful for perpetuation of seemingly innocuous neoliberal state #mixedracerad”
“Sexton: “Commitment of slavery is what made you white” so mixed people joined right in; they didn’t have to pass as white #mixedracerad”
“Sexton: Fanon! Does being ethical mixedness require working on accepting rather than rejecting blackness #mixedracerad”
“Professor Morning talking about census #mixedracerad”
“Morning: how did we come to contemporary embrace of mixedness? #mixedracerad”
“Sexton: First, mixedness is old and historical; second, note post-civil war hardening of racial identities #mixedracerad”
“Sexton: Commodification, not much helpful political analysis in movies/tv; shout out to #vindiesel & #therock #mixedracerad”
“Mahtani: professors need to step up and provide students with more than just the standard weak sauce multi fare #mixedracerad”
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@Iris,
“Even though they wanted me in their group, I was never really `one of them’. I have also felt that I am not `allowed’ to define myself. Only others are allowed to do that. Sometimes people even argued with me if I stated my identity!”
In my opinion, no one ‘defines’ themselves. The various levels of the societies you interact with and depend on ‘define’ you. What you think of yourself is irrelevant in a social context. What I think of you, or what your neighbors think of you is what matters. There is no ‘true’ you, only a subjective you. For instance, if your neighbors all think you are an untrustworthy person then they will treat you that way even if there is no evidence that you are untrustworthy.
Of course humans first impression of everyone is usually visual. If you don’t look like them, they will assume you aren’t one of them. And that seems to be the essential challenge of mixed-race people – they don’t look like anyone, unless they form such a large group of similarly mixed people such as many Mexicans do that they in essence become a new ethnic group (Latino) and can fit in with that.
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@biggiefriez,
People are forced to define themselves. Otherwise, they will be defined by others, as you say. But that in no way obviates the need for people to define themselves.
If what you say is the only truth, then if people think you are a thug or a perpetual foreigner or another unrelated ethnicity due to your “race”, than it does not matter what the truth is or how you define yourself, as it suddenly becomes irrelevant. We cannot think that way.
Another problem: suppose, as is often the case with mixed race persons, that you are defined a myriad different ways by different people on a daily basis, and even by the same people at different times. If you do not select a way to define yourself, you will be heading straight for the looney bin.
So, I claim that the need to define oneself is utterly essential for good mental health.
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@biggiefriez
“For instance, if your neighbors all think you are an untrustworthy person then they will treat you that way even if there is no evidence that you are untrustworthy.”
That’s for damn sure, but you can learn to be super strong in your own self-definition.
“And that seems to be the essential challenge of mixed-race people – they don’t look like anyone, unless they form such a large group of similarly mixed people such as many Mexicans do that they in essence become a new ethnic group (Latino) and can fit in with that.”
That’s not the case for me. I’ve gotten taken for almost everything, many times as a member of ethnic groups other than my own by members of that ethnic group. They’d tell me I look just like their relative, or like an actress from their country, or people would come up to me and speak a language I didn’t understand and then tell me they thought I was their friend etc. etc. It used to bother me a lot, but now I see it as a blessing, because when I do activism that means that a lot of people see me as looking familiar. I’ve gotten the you look like my cousin from my own ethnic group as well, and I have a 3rd cousin that I look a lot like–when I met her uncle for the first time it took him about 5 minutes to realize I wasn’t her, even though I was 18 and she was around 11 at the time.
Also I am Mexican American and we actually look Indigenous/Native American if you know what to look for.
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@Speak out,
Have you ever had the experience of people coming up to you and wondering if you are from the same country as them or speak their same language, and you stand there wondering – what country / language could that be?
It happened to me all the time. One that sticks out clearly in my head was when I was approached by a guy from Kazakhstan. He said he was wondering if I was from his country or not and for the life of me, I could not guess what it was. Another time someone approached me and spoke in Thai thinking I was his Thai-German friend that he went to school with. But then, people with whom I do share cultural / ethnic background with flatly deny that it is possible, and think I am being difficult.
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@Speak Out
“That’s for damn sure, but you can learn to be super strong in your own self-definition.”
I hear you, but I’m not talking about an inner-conversation with yourself. I’m saying that if I think of you in a negative way and thus won’t hire you or rent to you it really doesn’t matter what you think of yourself, no matter how strong is your own self-regard. What you look like, how you act, what you sound like and the stereotypes people have about your ethnicity matter more to your survival than anything else – because ‘no man is an island’. You need the people around you and you need them to think well of you, period.
I’ve modified myself to meet the social identity I need to have to feed myself and my family. I’ve changed my physical appearance, I’ve avoided conversations about wealth, sex, politics and religion as a way of not creating friction in a social context I found myself. I’ve even allowed people to jump to wrong conclusions about me if I thought it might be beneficial that I was thought of as being younger, older, dumber. smarter, etc, than I really am.
For most of us that inhabit mainstream society and depend on it for our survival, we are constantly changing identities to meet the expectations of the societies we inhabit. How many politicians pretend to be straight because they know they’d have trouble being elected as a homosexual? How many attend church because they would have trouble being elected as an atheist? How many black people think of other black people in a negative way because society has taught them to think that way (internalized racism)?
Sure, you can be an openly gay man in a rural or less cosmopolitan locale and be strong in that identity. But you’ll most likely pay for it if you’re trying to sell life insurance or rent a room, and if you’ve got dependents they’ll pay too.
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@jefe
I don’t have people coming up and asking if I’m the same ethnicity as them or if I speak the same language as them without telling me what it is. I often have had people ask me if I’m a member of their ethnic group or assume I’m a member of their ethnic group or just start talking to me in another language, and yes sometimes it has been a language that I can’t even guess.
I actually don’t mind when people ask me “Are you —–?” when it’s what they are too. What I don’t like are when people ask, “What are you?” (because it’s stupid and offensive and nobody’s business) or “What nationality are you?” (because it’s ignorant to think that if we’re in the U.S. and I speak with an American accent I’ll likely be something other than American). I also don’t like when people who aren’t part of my ethnic group tell me I don’t look Mexican like they’re qualified to judge. If I’m Mexican American I’m an example of what Mexican Americans look like.
I had a friend from Uzbekistan and we were in a market and this guy talked to her about “you and your sister” meaning me. She was all happy about that since I’m American which is supposed to be the polar opposite. She also said when she went home she showed photos of her schoolmates and her family would point to me and say, this one’s got to be Uzbek.
When I was taking Persian classes in college I would have Iranian Americans assuming I was Persian and going out of their way to humiliate me for not being a native speaker…people are evil.
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@biggiefriez
“I’ve modified myself to meet the social identity I need to have to feed myself and my family. I’ve changed my physical appearance, I’ve avoided conversations about wealth, sex, politics and religion as a way of not creating friction in a social context I found myself. I’ve even allowed people to jump to wrong conclusions about me if I thought it might be beneficial that I was thought of as being younger, older, dumber. smarter, etc, than I really am.”
I’ve done these things too, and so has most everybody. I’ve especially learned to let people think what they want when they assume things about me that don’t matter to me or if the other person doesn’t matter to me. What I meant about being strong in your own self-definition is that it’s a way to cope in a colonial world. It’s decolonizing your mind and doing energetic kung fu with all the people in life who try to manipulate you, which is what people are doing when they try to impose lies on you.
As far as a “true” you goes, I think there is one that you can find by your sense of integrity. What feels unbearable to you, what feels wrong to you, what feels right to you. When you accept yourself in that way it gets easier to deal with other people putting their baggage on you.
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@ Speak out
“As far as a “true” you goes, I think there is one that you can find by your sense of integrity. What feels unbearable to you, what feels wrong to you, what feels right to you. When you accept yourself in that way it gets easier to deal with other people putting their baggage on you.”—Very well said.
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@Jefe,
“If what you say is the only truth, then if people think you are a thug or a perpetual foreigner or another unrelated ethnicity due to your “race”, than it does not matter what the truth is or how you define yourself, as it suddenly becomes irrelevant. We cannot think that way.”
What we think of ourselves is relevant to ourselves. After all, pride can make us get up when we are down. Pride is a manifestation of self-esteem. And self-esteem is developed through a social context and linked to our experiences as children. Therefore, society plays a significant role in how we define or think about ourselves, our self-esteem, before we even have a chance to consciously consider the matter. For many of us our identity may be nothing more than a reflection of how we were treated by society (including friends and family) since childhood. I think Abagond’s post about internalized racism speaks to this.
As for our ‘true’ selves, I don’t believe in objective truth. I think our personal identity is ever changing and lacks stability. In fact I doubt most people really know themselves. Many of us are constantly trying to ‘improve’ ourselves and reach our greatest ‘true’ selves but we never will, it’s transitory. We lie, even to ourselves. Hitler probably thought he was a good person (Godwin’s Law).
We will never get to define ourselves to society. Pining that someday the world will evolve toward us and respect us for who we ‘truly’ are is, in my opinion, a waste of time. As Keyne’s said, ” In the long run we are all dead”. What most people want is to be happy. Other people cannot make us happy though we may gain happiness through them. Happiness does not exist, it cannot be bought, it cannot be had for any price. We have to make it, each of us individually.
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On fighting off “truths” and identities others impose on you:
https://twitter.com/iSmashFizzle/status/590939607518183425
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@ Kwame Reina: Comment deleted for using a racial slur.
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