“Permission to Narrate” (1984) is an essay by Edward Said about how Israel’s war on Lebanon in 1982 was talked about in the West, particularly in America, about how Israel could do terrible things to the Palestinians and yet not be condemned in a way that stuck.
In the war Israel bombed Beirut to bits. It helped its allies, the Phalangists, kill over 2,000 Palestinian men, women and children at Sabra and Shatila. It was Israel that killed over 20,000 Arabs that summer – compared to the 290 Israelis that the Palestinians had killed since the Six-Day War in 1967.
None of these facts were hidden, yet it is the Palestinians who were seen as the terrorists while the Israelis were merely acting out of self-defence. It is Israel that is seen as the champion of humanism, civilization, democracy and all that.
How can that be?
Said says it comes about through two levels of censorship:
- Silencing of certain opinions: American publishers, especially the larger ones, will see anything that puts Israel in a bad light as Jew-hating, as anti-Semitic, and refuse to print it. The range of respectable opinion about Israel in America is much narrower than in France or even Britain. And when anti-Israeli opinion does see the light of day, it is shouted down as – anti-Semitic. Even many anti-apartheid and anti-nuclear activists, who knew full well how bad Israel was, kept their mouths shut. When John Chancellor of the American “NBC Nightly News” arrived in Beirut in July 1982 and saw the destruction he told millions of television viewers back home that Israel was “savage” and imperialistic – yet a week later he took that back as a “mistake”.
- Lack of counter-narrative: When all you hear is one side of the story you do not see how the facts could support a completely different storyline. The main facts, after all, were not and could not be hidden. But when the facts do not fit a storyline, they are regarded as exceptions. So Sabra and Shatila become strange exceptions. So too the bombing of Beirut. So Israel keeps its claims of being a civilized country. The Palestinians, meanwhile, are written off as terrorists since their actions make little sense.
The counter-narrative in this case is the history and future of the Palestinians as they themselves see it. Despite all the books, pictures, film and news stories about the war, that story hardly ever got told to American audiences. So much so that even Noam Chomsky, who probably had a better command of the facts than anyone, did not seem to know it. That meant he could not make complete sense of what was going on. It also meant he never questioned important parts of the Israeli narrative.
To be fair, Chomsky himself should have known better – especially since he named his book about the war “The Fateful Triangle” (1983). While he went through American and Israeli sources in depth he did not do the same with Arab sources.
See also:
I don’t understand how they can try to say they have claim to that land. The majority of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi. They are the remnants of the now defunct Khazar empire that hails from Easters EUROPE. They converted en masse about the 13th century or so. They have no ancestral ties to the land. They treat the Sephardic and Falasha, who DO have ancestral ties, like second class citizens. I don’t understand how you can claim something that never belonged to you.
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Eastern*
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Abagond, once again, we are of the same mind on a subject I find not only interesting, but important. You are spot-on as usual. However, in fairness to Chomsky (as with myself, people come to “enlightenment” in their own time), he did eventually get it. Here he is in 1989: http://youtu.be/saiver9GcJw
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White Jews have a sick obsession with Israel and I say this as a White Jew. A few years ago when 8 Israelis had been killed in comparison to 1000 Palestinians I saw status after status on Facebook from White Jews moaning the 8 deaths but saying nothing about the 1000 deaths. I disowned White Jews after that and refuse to stand for the Israeli National Anthem.
I have since learned that israel aligned it itself with the Apartheid regime shortly after World War 2! How disgusting, Jews that had just survived Genocide, were supporting the Apartheid Regime!
In Hebrew School as a child I was taught that Palestinian Children collected cards of Palestinian Bombers and that they wanted to grow up to do this themselves. Of course I was never taught the atrocities that the Israelis had committed against Palestinians instead bs stories formed to make me intentionally vied Palestinians as terrorists.
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@Stephanie
“I have since learned that israel aligned it itself with the Apartheid regime shortly after World War 2! How disgusting, Jews that had just survived Genocide, were supporting the Apartheid Regime!”
D: where did you hear that from. That is really disturbing. I knew about how some White Jews benefited from the Trans-Atlantic slave trade by profiting from banks that “priced” slaves and what not but the Apartheid support is news to me.
I’m sure that not all had support of it especially after what they went through during WW2 but even just a few is just..insane.
@darqbeauty
You write the truth. That is why I heard that the current folks in Israel were not the originals.
@abagond
Great post. The same old tactic being used again and again.
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@ deedee
“Gamel Abdel Nasser, stated on television , “you (the Jews) will never be able to live here in peace, because you left here (Palestine) black and came back white.”
So who are these people and why do they claim Israel so vehemently? Reminds me of America, and Australia and New Zealand and South Africa ect…but with a lot more subterfuge.
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“Reminds me of America, and Australia and New Zealand and South Africa ect…but with a lot more subterfuge.”
No shit! http://www.cwsworkshop.org/pdfs/CARC/Family_Herstories/2_On_Being_White.PDF
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There is nothing cut and dried about the truth in these matters, its all so complex. Its hard to say something, anything on the subject withtout stepping on someone’s toes, and, since Im not as informed on the middle east as I could be, Id rather not try to venture an ignorant opinion on this subject…
I would say this, World War 2 was staggering. The numbers and losses are mindboggling. For better or worse, those events have had a profound affect on world events ever since , for sure on the subject of this thread
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Good Lord! Now you’re going after the Jews. It’s so ridiculous I’d probably be laughing if I wasn’t already crying. *smh*
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@duckduckgoofs:
“Good Lord! Now you’re going after the Jews. It’s so ridiculous I’d probably be laughing if I wasn’t already crying. *smh*”
Well, if one critizes the state of Israel and its politics it does not mean “going after the jews”. As a matter of fact; there is a strong opposition for those policies in Israel but they very seldom get any attention in western media. I wonder why is that? 😀
There are peace movements, human rights movements, jewish groups who oppose the treatment of palestinians etc. All these are by the israeli jews. There is even an organisation of Israeli army officers opposing the occupation of the Palestine land in West Bank etc. Are they all “going after the jews”??
By the way, former prime minister was shot by an isreali right wing religious extremist just because he was trying to bring the end to this mess. And the murdered guy was a true war hero of Israel and his killer a fanatic nut job who claimed to be a hero and great defender of Israel. See?
Things are not that simple, specially if you have been there, like I have. Also the most raunchy and “worst” jokes about the jews and Israel have been told by my jewish friends themselves. Here is one I was told way back in the late 80’s after the war in Lebanon:
– Whats the difference between Israel and nazi Germany? We still have the blitzkrieg, the tanks and the camps.
And mind you, duckduckgoofs, this joke was told by a army reservist who had served in the Ariel Sharons war in Lebanon.
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Sam:
I don’t think that joke is funny.
Furthermore, no, criticizing Israel is not the same thing as criticizing the Jewish people as a whole. HOWEVER – who exactly are you fooling when you deny what is happening in this thread? We’re 11 posts in and someone’s already going on about “The Jews” and the slave trade. Many posters here see the nuances and perceptive discrepancies of others who want to deny the factor racism plays in a conversation. And yet there seems to be a willful blindness about how this same thing applies to discussions about anti-semitism in the larger Black community (which includes, but is mostly not made up of Jews).
I also think saying white Jews have no claim to Israel is ridiculous. I don’t think the state of Israel was the best idea ever, and I support a two-state solution. However, Jews of all kinds, who are of mixed, converted, or ‘pure’ ancestry, are members of the Jewish people. And collectively, we remember Israel. It had been almost 2,000 years, and we still remembered as a people. The situation is annoying, and frustrating, and extremely irritating for me as a Black Jew. I get so mad watching white-skinned Jews going on about their claim to the land while ignoring the fact that most Palestinians probably have ancient Jewish heritage themselves, and more genetic heritage than settlers in all. And yet, the situation is no less complicated.
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@Mamzer HaKodesh
HOWEVER – who exactly are you fooling when you deny what is happening in this thread? We’re 11 posts in and someone’s already going on about “The Jews” and the slave trade.
Who exactly are you fooling? White Jewish people were involved in the Slave trade. It’s a fact, history, and well documented. Whether one decides to hate Jews is a different matter, don’t try to suppress the truth.
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@Mamzer HaKodesh
“I also think saying white Jews have no claim to Israel is ridiculous.”
How so? That does not mean that they are not “Jewish” It means that they are claiming lands as their own that they are not originally from. To be apart of a collective “Jewish” community makes sense but to try and lay claim to a (foreign for them) land and forbid others from doing the same IS RIDICULOUS.
“We’re 11 posts in and someone’s already going on about “The Jews” and the slave trade.”
Um no. Ashkenazi does not account for all. You Know This. And I mentioned banks and some “White Jews” in my post just to mention how some in a oppressed group can benefit from the oppression of others. This thread is not a rant against “Jews”. That was a misinterpretation on your part.
“And yet there seems to be a willful blindness about how this same thing applies to discussions about anti-semitism in the larger Black community (which includes, but is mostly not made up of Jews). ”
You should suggest a post to Abagond about that. It may be a good discussion for you.
“I get so mad watching white-skinned Jews going on about their claim to the land while ignoring the fact that most Palestinians probably have ancient Jewish heritage themselves, and more genetic heritage than settlers in all. And yet, the situation is no less complicated.”
Could you go more in dept into this? Your feelings, the situation if you can. Understand that this thread is about the politics of Israel and Palestine and how people are affected (at least that is my understanding). Use this opportunity to give insight or maybe even just to vent. It is up to you.
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It is so hard to thoroughly discuss or even mildly criticize the Jewish people. Because as soon as you say anything not in their favor, you are accused of being “anti-Semitic”. Which, by the way, is a misnomer.
“The Bible:
Relates that the Khazar (Ashkenaz) Jews were/are the sons of Japheth not Shem:
“Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. The sons of Japheth;…the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz…”
(Genesis 10:1-3)
Therefore, the Bible proves that the Ashkenaz Jews [Khazars] are not the descendants of Shem and cannot be Semite.”
Once again, JewISH people have no blood link to the Israelites of the Bible. None. Yet when you bring this up, you are branded an “anti-Semite”, which doesn’t make any sense to me. Seeing as how they are not semitic peoples. This whole thing is very convoluted and leaves me scratching my head over people who say that the land is theirs by birthright.
Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. I’ll leave it at that and say no more. Because fighting over something that is not rightfully yours can never be justified. There is no hate here. Only a thirst and hunger for the truth and the spreading of truth.
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@darqbeauty
It is so hard to thoroughly discuss or even mildly criticize the Jewish people. Because as soon as you say anything not in their favor, you are accused of being “anti-Semitic”. Which, by the way, is a misnomer.
I love the double standard, personally. If you say something against Black, you’re racist. Say something against Mexicans, and your racist. Asians; racist. Arabs; racist. But, say something against Jews, and you’re anti-Semitic, which is a special kind of racist that makes you a special kind of asshole. You can tell because it has a special name. And unlike racist, use of the word Anti-Semitic will never be countered by accusations of pulling the Holocaust card.
Perhaps we should coin the phrase “Anti-Hamitic” and colonize Egypt and Iraq, the kingdoms of Mizraim and Nimrod.
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[The Bible:
Relates that the Khazar (Ashkenaz) Jews were/are the sons of Japheth not Shem:]
the book of Genesis and the rest of the Old testament was written between 700-200 BC by more than one writers. Noah and his sons are mythical characters and are retelling of earlier Mesopotamian flood myths
[Revelation 2:9 and 3:9. I’ll leave it at that and say no more. ]
the so called book of revelation barely made it into the bible during a process called canonization. many books where not included into the current christian bible you have
further reading
Myths from Mesopotamia: creation, the flood, Gilgamesh and others
a new translation by Stephanie Dalley
Who Wrote the New Testament?: The Making of the Christian Myth
by Burton L Mack
Who wrote the Bible?
by Richard Elliot Friedman
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@ angloamericanwatchdog
Well, if you use the Bible as the source of your claims to Israelite ancestry, expect to have those claims refuted by using that same book. You can’t claim something based on Biblical prophecy, then negate the Bible as a valid source when it comes to discounting said claims.
And yes, I know about the similar myths. And yet, I hold steadfast to my faith.
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The Bible and the origin of the Israelites are way off topic here.
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Sorry, Abagond!
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I think what makes this discussion very difficult is the american view of judaism and Israel. Like I said, there is a strong opposition IN ISRAEL against the occupation of the West Bank and the policies vis a vis the arabs living in Israel and/or in the occupied territories. Some real life war heroes are against the occupation too, includin some generals (ret.) and reservist officers.
Some of my jewish friends very openly called the extremist jewish movements as fascist and nazis. So the situation is no way as clear cut as it seems to be in western media and specially in US media.
@Mamzer HaKodesh:
I did not say that the joke is funny. I said it was told to me by a young NCO who had been in Lebanon during that war. And that was not even among the worst jokes I heard during my stay in Israel.
Do the jews have a right for their own nation, their own land? In my mind yes, of course. I have nothing against Israel. But at the same time, do the palestinians have a right for their own country? Yes they do.
Problem is that too many politicians and extremists profit from the war like situation too much. Also, outsiders have their spoon in the soup too. The ordinary people on both sides just want to live in peace. Lets hope and pray their wish will come true one day.
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From what I’ve read, the Israelis don’t treat Ethiopian Jews well at all. They are subject to a lot of discrimination. That’s one. Secondly, all anyone has to do is check the history of how the Jews took Palestine in the first place leading up to 1948 and the formation of Israel. The Jews ruthlessly killed Palestinians and the last straw came when Jews bombed the King David Hotel causing British troops to leave Palestine. Israel has been in the terror business for decades.
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I’m glad I had a chance to read this blog because it relates to what’s going on here as well in Western media.
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@angloamerican,
Please read Abagond’s comments. The subject is off topic. You can continue the discussion in the Open Thread post if you’d like to.
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Et. al
Don’t forget that Mel Gibson’s public reputation has not been right ever since the release of Passion of the Christ .
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The “Palestinian” issue is primarily there because it is in the interests of the other Arabs to keep them where they are agitating against Israel. The Arabs control virtually all of the land in the Middle East yet the 1% they don’t drives them into fits of irrationality. I feel for the Jordon River Arabs, but not because of the Israelis.
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I don’t expect you to argue with a white person about how racism is real and it’s affecting the conversation. If they don’t want to be aware of it, they will find ways to nit-pick specific words, backtrack, divert, deny the context and background of the conversation, etc… And for me, the same thing is happening in this thread.
Crap…. I’m breaking my don’t-argue-when-the-other-person-refuses-to-admit-loss policy…
1 – Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade – Yes, some European Jews profited from it, as did many, many, many other Europeans in general – what exactly is the reason for bringing it up in this thread? And more importantly, why is it so hard for you to acknowledge why you feel the need to bring it up in this post? What exactly are you trying to accomplish? You know when white people say, “I’m not racist, but….” ? That’s a hint to help you figure it out.
2 – Ashkenazi (European) “blood”. Many of us certainly have ancestral blood, but not all of us. Just like any other group in the world (like many Native American and African nations/tribes), we do adopt people. Then they carry our heritage. Unlike other groups, for example gypsies who were originally from India, we have remembered our nation of origin. We have kept maps. We have described it. We have spent over a thousand years praying to return and facing the direction of Jerusalem in prayer. We never agreed to give it up any more than many Native Americans agreed to give up their land. This is what I mean when I say the idea that white-skinned Jews have no claim to Israel is ridiculous. And I bet you wouldn’t dare make that argument about, say the Apache nation concerning vast swaths of southwest America. And for the record, I did NOT say that Jews were the ONLY ones who had a claim to Israel. As long as we’re nit-picking.
And finally, @Sam, alright then. I still don’t think it’s funny, but I respect your service and I have many of the same feelings expressed in that sentiment.
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@Mamzer HaKodesh
“Yes, some European Jews profited from it, as did many, many, many other Europeans in general – what exactly is the reason for bringing it up in this thread? And more importantly, why is it so hard for you to acknowledge why you feel the need to bring it up in this post?”
You have taken the post out of context. Arab, European, African, etc slave trades are nothing new to me so to bring them up to me is pointless. Now you know. A commenter mentioned European “Jews” involvement in a apartheid like regime. The comment was to illustrate what I have known of European “Jews” involvement in other acts that would not normally be expected to show that I believe the statement about the Apartheid like involvement and found it to be shocking.Because ALL I heard about was the slight involvement in the slave trade. It was not to place blame on European “Jews”. Do you understand now?
“Ashkenazi (European) “blood”. Many of us certainly have ancestral blood, but not all of us. Just like any other group in the world (like many Native American and African nations/tribes), we do adopt people. Then they carry our heritage. Unlike other groups, for example gypsies who were originally from India, we have remembered our nation of origin. We have kept maps. We have described it. We have spent over a thousand years praying to return and facing the direction of Jerusalem in prayer. We never agreed to give it up any more than many Native Americans agreed to give up their land. This is what I mean when I say the idea that white-skinned Jews have no claim to Israel is ridiculous. And I bet you wouldn’t dare make that argument about, say the Apache nation concerning vast swaths of southwest America. And for the record, I did NOT say that Jews were the ONLY ones who had a claim to Israel. As long as we’re nit-picking.”
I’m not seeing the point of this…? You seem to have completely missed the point. Also, weren’t the Apache nation FROM the southwest part of the US. That is not the same as Ashkenazi who were not originally from Israel. The religion keeps the connection but that does not change the fact that Ashkenazi originate out of Eastern Europe.
Look at the full sentence I wrote ..
“To be apart of a collective “Jewish” community makes sense but to try and lay claim to a (foreign for them) land and forbid others from doing the same IS RIDICULOUS. ”
Do you see what I’ve bolded? That was not commenting you. That was the actions of the Ashkenazi in Israel.
“don’t-argue-when-the-other-person-refuses-to-admit-loss”. How cute and dumb at the same time. This is not a game where there are losers and winners. This is a thread to help find truth and understanding. You may need to do a little growing up if you don’t realize that.
If you are not sure of context then ASK, I should have done the same on various other threads that caused a misunderstanding and I am guilty of too. But going on a pointless tirade is useless.
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@Mamzer HaKodesh
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=269941
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4231645,00.html
If you have the chance and haven’t seen these articles then please check them out. It is refreshing that the state of Israel recognizes the racism and discrimination that needs to be stopped (at least pertaining to Ethiopians “Jews”). That is what I was getting at. Equality with each other. With the land and with the people there migrant or not.
Also, I know it was an example and I hate to go off topic but if I understand correctly Native “Americans” did not believe in ownership of the land. So it was only European conquistadors and colonists who assumed that a trade for the land was being done. I wish my Grandfather was still alive so I could ask him (he was full Aniyvwiya [Cherokee]). But I do understand the point of the example. My posts may at times seem like they are emotional and aggressive but I actually write almost each post with no hate in my heart. I have no issues with you Mamzer HaKodesh or you feelings just be aware of that.
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To darqbeauty:
Who said:
The majority of Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi.
No.. the majority are Mizrahi Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews
Although it is true that the Ashkenazism in Israel have more political power and wealth.
And also said:
They are the remnants of the now defunct Khazar empire that hails from Easters EUROPE. They converted en masse about the 13th century or so.
There was a conversion, predominantly of the Aristocracy of the Khazars in the 9th century. Nevertheless gene studies demonstrate the large majority of Ashkenazi males have ancestral origins in the Middle East, although there is some debate as to the Middle Eastern genetic origin of the matrilineal line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Genetic_origins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Debate_about_Khazar_conversion_to_Judaism
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I teach Advanced Placement English Language and Composition. A few years ago, after completing the exam given by College Board, a student approached me about “concerns” she had with the accuracy of the test itself. She explained that one of the essayists identified herself as a “Palestinian American”, a self-description she thought to be inherently incorrect because the state of Palestine does not technically exist. I agreed (and refrained from discussing the many reasons as to why Palestine is technically not a sovreign country), but indicated to her that the whole world knows to whom one is referring when someone self-identifies herself as a Palestinian. We understand the exact group of people we refer to when we use this term, regardless of the geopolitics of the day.
The fact that she was so greatly disturbed really brought home to me, a woman originally from the Caribbean, how deeply divisive this issue is.
I too fear being labled as antisemetic, but I see the disparity with which the Palestinian/Israeli confiict is treated by the American Media. The whole issue is not reported in a balanced way at all.
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To deedee7789:
Who said:
@darqbeauty
You write the truth. That is why I heard that the current folks in Israel were not the originals.
1) The majority of the Jews in Israel are from the Middle East, North Africa, and Western Asia (Iran, etc..) not Europe.
2) Of the Jews whose origins are from Europe, there are numerous genetic studies that show Middle Eastern origin. Although the Khazar Jews existed, their input into the current Ashkenazi population was fairly low. The notion that all European Jews are completely descended from the Khazars is pushed by both the likes of Stormfront and various radical Arab groups. I have another post in moderation with links that provide further information.
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I am really hesitant to jump in on this one, but my opinion is that the Zionist state was truly set up by the british after wwii by 3rd party decree and the whole thing is very reminiscent of the pull out of the colonial powers throughout africa in tone and i guess one could argue overall efficacy.
Truly a prelude to the modern police state, and all that implies with an added racial overtone, ie israelis vs. palestinians.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/1947+UN+Partition+Plan.htm
The UN doesn’t have the sack to jump in and enforce some type of settlement that is fair the Palestinians, there are many many disputed borders all over the place, I just don’t even understand what the UN really does, when it can’t even oversee the fuckin political map of the world. Two state solution? The Pallies will never be off the terrorist list with Fatah in there like that I just don’t see how they can ever get anywhere in the state they’re in. You know? just fuckin deal with it, people. Just another drawn out nightmare that is marginalized and covered up and kept out of the media unless someone throws a rocket from gaza.
But I guess it’s like East Berlin, of yore, and N/S Korea, and other partitioned areas that just don’t rate a solution? I don’t know I’m not in the Bilderberger country club.
@joshua I don’t think Lebanon or Jordan or Syria wants all those refugee camps over there that is a stupid comment.
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@Uncle Milton
“1) The majority of the Jews in Israel are from the Middle East, North Africa, and Western Asia (Iran, etc..) not Europe.
2) Of the Jews whose origins are from Europe, there are numerous genetic studies that show Middle Eastern origin. Although the Khazar Jews existed, their input into the current Ashkenazi population was fairly low. The notion that all European Jews are completely descended from the Khazars is pushed by both the likes of Stormfront and various radical Arab groups. I have another post in moderation with links that provide further information.”
Then I stand corrected :D. However, Ashkenazi population is genetically mostly Eastern European so it is still valid to identify them as such. but no disagreement with them having West Asian ancestry that was in Israel. Also, sources are weird but some say that Ashkenazi population has a slight majority in Israel. Would make since since the overall population for all “Jewish” people is about 80% Ashkenazi. So there may be slight truth to darqbeauty comment on the majority. Also what are possible other sources of the sources of Ashkenazi besides from the Khazar Empire? Believe me I DO NOT want to be on the same side as stormfront EVER so this is a real question.
@dtfamu89
Wow. Thank you for your input.
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I visited Israel for a few days when I was 17 years old, and was actually baptized — and came close to drowning — in the River Jordan.
Anyway, one thing I noticed while there was that very few of the people I came across looked anything like the Jews I was accustomed to seeing back home in NYC. As a matter of fact, I myself felt right at home there as most people I came into contact wit ranged in complexion from olive to golden tan, and had hair that was typically dark and curly/wavy as opposed to straight. It was actually the very white skin Jews, their little boys often donning naturally blond, orange or red side locks, who stood out like sore thumbs….
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Also, I had a difficult time telling apart, by phenotype alone, the Jews from the Palestinians. The only ones I was sure were Jews were the the Hasidic ones.
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Sorry, everyone. I’m aware that I do a really lousy editing job before posting my comments.
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@deedee
Now you’re calling me cute and dumb and telling me to grow up? Well, I guess I’ll go back to my rule of not arguing with people who don’t want to conceed loss of an argument.
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“However, Ashkenazi population is genetically mostly Eastern European so it is still valid to identify them as such.”
Eastern European admixture in the Ashkenazi is very low. Conversion to Judaism by Christians was heavily stigmatized for most of European history and sometimes criminalized. Estimates of Middle Eastern ancestry in Ashkenazim are currently around the 65% range. Most of the rest shows affinities to other Eastern Mediterranean groups and is thought to be a mix of Italian, Greek, and possibly Anatolian from intermarriage/conversions in late antiquity.
Quoted from the Wikipedia article on Ashkenazi genetics:
“A 2010 study on Jewish ancestry by Atzmon-Ostrer et al. stated “Two major groups were identified by principal component, phylogenetic, and identity by descent (IBD) analysis: Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews. The IBD segment sharing and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to southern European populations suggested similar origins for European Jewry and refuted large-scale genetic contributions of Central and Eastern European and Slavic populations to the formation of Ashkenazi Jewry.”, as both groups – the Middle Eastern Jews and European/Syrian Jews shared common ancestors in the Middle East about 2500 years ago.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews#Genetic_origins
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@ SW6 – B.R.
Some things are HIDDEN IN PLAIN VIEW
Does anyone ever wonder HOW such a tiny country like Israel can wield such an INORDINATE power and influence across the international landscape? And, how is it that AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) is arguably one of the most powerful lobbies in America?
Past and present administrations, members of the House and Senate have overwhelmingly supported giving extraordinary amounts of CASH and WEAPONRY (WELFARE to support WARFARE) to Israel. That’s American tax dollars …. financially supporting a PUGNACIOUS militaristic apartheid regime.
Even the AFL-CIO, the National Federation of Independent Business, the Association of Trial Lawyers of America, the National Rifle Association, the Christian Coalition, the American Medical Association, the National Education Association and the National Right to Life Committee all follow behind this pro-Israel lobby in terms clout and influence. The last time I checked, Israel is a nation situated abroad in the Middle East. It’s not America’s 51st state. It’s a Zionist organization/state that’s been systemically stealing land/resources from the Palestinian people.and looking to further its hegemony in the Middle East – AND worldwide through its useful proxy, the United States.
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I think the american racist system shows here: so many discussin about the jewish “race” or “racial definition”. WTF?? it is cultural and religious identity.
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Well, SW6 and Matari, I apreciete your pulling me back into a discusion my instincts say to bow out of…
I still see complexity from the ancient history up to today…
Matari, this lobby thing in America has gone too far in all its aspects.Im all for bringing to light how the big money business interests and high society elite get to sway congressmen and policy desicians through these lobbies. No American , Dem or Rep can go against the Cuban embargo for fear of losing the Cuban vote in Miami which could lose them electorial votes in the state of Florida..The National Rifle association can push for continued gun laws that arm the average citizen with high leval army combat weaponry in the face of police officers all over wishing that the average person doesnt arm themselves so much…The Jewish lobby is another high powered group that has money enough to lobby for desicians and policies in their favor
Its hard to discuss contemporary Isreali policies without forgetting the various Arab Isaelli wars. Where I agree, Israel has gotten too brutal in its reactions , there still is another side to the story also.
I still say , World War 2 , and all its brutal horrors , caused the dynamic we are seeing today. The Nazi’s contributed more than anybody to portraying this type of thinking that the Jewish people are some sub race that needs to be extinct
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SW6, I will check that youtube out later…
I still say , I have no desire to start giving my opinions on a subject that is just a hornets nest of various opinions on that subject
Not that I wouldnt give an opinion on a provocative subject, but, not one I am not educated enough to speak on well
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In my personal opinion…most of what happens all over the globe…May have initiated from religious beliefs…but then turned into man’s belief of being territorial.
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@Bulanik…Thanks for all the background info. Seems the Sudanese in Israel are getting some of that Zionist, “Churchill” treatment even today: Israeli Mob Attacks Black Immigrants, Netanyahu Vows to Send Blacks ‘Home’ – http://www.yourblackworld.net/2012/05/black-news/israeli-mob-attacks-black-immigrants-netanyahu-vows-to-send-blacks-home/
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@Bulanik…You’re welcome
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“Matari, the stuff you listed is kid stuff, in terms of knowledge, and so is just a starting point on the Israel/Palestine issue. Everyone knows (or should know) about how Israel gets new and sophisticated weaponry from the U.S. Everyone knows Israel is a client state of the U.S.”
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SW6
I believe you MISSED the entire direction/point I was making as I asked about Israel’s inordinate amount of power, control, influence in America’s political affairs.
FYI, I’m not here to impress anyone, including you, with my awareness regarding the symbiotic relationship between the two countries.
> “Everyone knows Israel is a client state of the U.S.”
I was merely asking or wondering if anyone sees that Israel is NOT a client state of the U.S.” but in fact the opposite – American policies and practices are unduly influenced/usurped by a tiny young Zionist nation that directs much of the political affairs of a supposed super power.
I see now that I erred by attempting to include you in my *childish* discussion. Apparently you’re way too old, or something, to grasp the rather simple point that apparently went well over your *adult* head. : ))
Please be assured I won’t address any future (kiddie) comments to you. LOL
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SW6, I watched the first part of the youtube…it is complex, as I knew things like what he is talking about can be, and, he was kind of laborous and I detected a kind of agenda , not sure what it is , but, I get the same thing from Noam Chompski….I dont trust everything he sais…
I also respect what Matari was reffering to , I can gain from both insights you , Matari and Bulanik or anyone else has , I just dont trust discusions as far as what I can give reguarding these subjects
I remember a long time ago in Chicago in the 70’s , when some incident I have forgotten was in the news about a Middle East violent thing. I was walking out of my apartment building , and, a guy who lived there, who I didnt know at all that well, was standing there, and, we started lamenting the violence in the Middle East. I kind of came out with a kumbaya statement like ” Its too bad there is so much violence , because they are the same people ( meaning Semetic background), and, the guy nearly had a fit trying to insist they werent the same people at all…I think in retrospect that this guy was Jewish, but I dont know for sure…anyway, it was a cold shower and I just dont like presenting opinions on the subject ( even though I do in spite of myself). I prefer to let people who live there talk first
One thing I would say about the birth of Israel, in my opinion, it has a lot more to do with what happened in the concentration camps in World War 2, and the systematic attemt to exterminate the Jews
This brought a deep sympathy from places like the USA, and that is why there is policies that might even seem unjust at play…its the weight of history , and make no mistake, World War 2 carries unbelivible weight as far as shaping history ( i saw that guy referred to some of this , SW6)…Christianity and Islamism have a large history of conquering and taking over peoples lands. Israel is a new bid in this territory by the Jewish people
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Hi Bulanik-
“Your point, and your question directed to SW6, is not that far from an analogy I raised earlier on this thread, where I implied that Israel is treated as the US’s favoured, spoiled child of who get to run the household!
I believe the relationship between the 2 nations is way beyond client and provider. Israel – this new country – has come to represent is the US/Western Civilization enclave in the Middle East: the root of the idea of what Israel stands for (ideas/ideals about what is modern and Western) reach back 100s of years, and in modern times, the US wants these ideals promoted and protected. ”
********************
WARNING — Rambling Alert!!
The key question I’m asking is why — and, HOW … does a tiny relatively new country that’s not a military or financial super-juggernaut hold such power and influence over America’s political apparatus???
What is Israel holding over America’s head that forces its (compromised?) leadership to bow and acquiesce to Israel’s demands and dictates? In a normal reality this sort of behavior by America’s political elite would be deemed as acts of treason – by virtue of permitting a *foreign* entity to run American policies — to the benefit of Israel and to the detriment of the American people. But then, most/many governments seem mired in policies that are indeed harmful to their people.
Apparently the relationship that exists between the two countries is okay with a good amount of Americans … and the more I live, see and understand, the more convinced I am that the US is a plutocracy/oligarchy. The common people, in the eyes of such rich men, are merely useful idiots who are supposed to serve them (help *them* become MORE rich) – directly or otherwise.
* B.R.
Thank you.
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@ Matari,
I think Israel is important to the US because of its geographic position and the inhabitants are essentially “european-euro american” as opposed to “arabic” or “black” — so they have that cultural link.
First things first, it is important that the middle east remain an “unstable” region because of oil. That means america can get resources on the cheap and oil is the backbone of american society. Israel acts to destabilize the whole region and has done so consistently. This is important.
Secondly, religious reasons. The age old war between muslims and christians. Christianity is linked to europe and that general area of israel is linked to the birth place of judeo christian religion. Thus it is important for “christians” i.e. ‘european’ as opposed to ‘arabic’ culturally identified people to control it. To lose this is to lose the self-image of european-euro america culture.
It is important to note that even though people here are arguing about the ethnicity of israelis, israel is considered european as opposed to middle eastern in world affairs and politics, most current inhabitants that make up the ruling structure of israeli society migrated there from europe or america.
So that is what I think Israel has over America. Beyond europe as a continent, it is the most strategically placed country for the US.
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Wilson
So the US political apparatus kisses Israel’s feet in order to maintain an *unstable* Middle East, and maintain a boot (or choke hold) on the necks of OPEC/Arab nations and Iran for the sake of profit and hegemony??
That seems somewhat plausible, though my gut feeling is that there’s more going on with this strange alliance than meets the eye.
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Matari,
“So the US political apparatus kisses Israel’s feet in order to maintain an *unstable* Middle East, and maintain a boot (or choke hold) on the necks of OPEC/Arab nations and Iran for the sake of profit and hegemony??So the US political apparatus kisses Israel’s feet in order to maintain an *unstable* Middle East, and maintain a boot (or choke hold) on the necks of OPEC/Arab nations and Iran for the sake of profit and hegemony??”
—————————————————————————————
Yeah that’s pretty much what I think; Profit, Hegemony and Self-Image.
If there’s more then I am stumped as to what it could be.
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@Bulanik/all…re: Israel, the US and the nuclear arsenal: – http://lets-be-clear.blogspot.com/2012/03/jews-changeling-and-nuclear-weaponry.html
D. Vanunu’s interview is quite illuminating.. (seeing as he was at Dimona)
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No one here has mentioned that many everyday Americans, Christians specifically, believe that Israel must remain Jewish in order for the rapture to occur. Christ is supposed to return Israel and convert the Jews to Christianity. So, it isn’t just those in power that are vested in making sure that Israel is stable and secure.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
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@v8driver
If they really cared, the other Arab states would allow the Palestinian Arabs to immigrate. They don’t. They much prefer them in refugee camps up against Israel.
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“I’ve never seen you engage in verbal trickery elsewhere like you did here with me.”
***********
SW6 – Apparently you’ve seen what you wanted to see. Big *EGOS* often see things…
Let me be blunt – your flimsy explanation and trite accusation, as in “…you engage in verbal trickery…” are BS.
Be assured that I won’t engage you with my (“trickery” kid stuff) comments again. Please do likewise.
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SW6 , for me , Chompski is an intelligent individual who does skewer things to fit what he thinks the truth is for him
He did a long paper on the state of Colombia and devoted page after page to the USA military industrial complex , and only one paragraph to the Farc and their conflict and called them “freedom fighters”. Living in Brazil, I can tell you the Farc is anything but freedom fighters, they are scum drug running, kidnapping thugs .
In a recent article in Huffington post, in criticising the USA, he said that China under Mao had better health care….China under Mao , using Communist “back to the feilds ” methods, starved over 20,000,000 people ….!!?? The cultural revolution eliminated millions more…I think that is hiding some real truths on Chompskies part.
I basicly just dont intellectualy trust him
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“But look, I’m not a pointy headed, rule following bureaucrat. I mostly will keep from addressing you if this is what you want. But I want you to know no one has to fulfill your expectations for how you’d like them to respond to your comments. It would have been so pleasing for you if I had said, “ohh, yeah Matari. That bad old Israel and their lobby, yada, yada, yada. This blog is not a mutual admiration society for left wingers Matari. I say again, the blog is about idea exchange! (Abagond can correct me if I’m wrong about that.) You need to drop the ego and be open to the experience of being on this blog and take responsibility for being on this blog.
I can’t promise you what you want because I can’t promise to ignore a future outlandish comment that you might make. Think for a moment about Kant’s categorical imperative. If everyone were to make the request that you have made Matari, the blog would seize up into cyber-cliques and no go zones: idea transmission and expression on this blog would come to a halt. Is that what you want for this blog? Do you think it’s a mature approach? Those are rhetorical queries for you to think about.”
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LOL @ you’re not a pointy headed ….
But you are! If writing a bunch of words makes one a “winner” then you that’s YOU. The winner. : )))
But you’re also an obviously unimpressive dumb-azz who can’t/won’t leave well enough alone.
+++++
“I just knew, I was taking the risk of coming down with a severe case of foot in mouth disease-ouch!”
*******
Actually, you’ve done this a more than a few times, and not just with me and Bulanik. You seem to have a strong propensity for getting your panties all twisted and bunched up when you put your foot in your mouth — for an “Englishman,” such as yourself! 🙂 LOL
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Mod us-Oporandum
You know SW6, the great majority of posters on this blog are SANGUINE with each other. We save and use our most robust retorts for the racist trolls that come to disturb the flow of this site.
But you — you seem to have this big chip on your shoulder – looking to upset and offend anyone that crosses your *sensibilities* (?).
Most/all regular posters here would pose a positive or challenging (aka – RESPECTFUL) question/comment – but you often come at folks with an ABRASIVE (and OFFENSIVE) manner/style. Then you apply your twisted reasoning and BS explanations to defend your unseemly behavior. Why do you do this? Is this part and parcel of your offline (real) personality?
Is it your mission to come here and see how much *ugly* you can muster up???
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Abagond:
As time goes on, humanity feels less sorry for jewish folk because of what was done in Palestine. Yes, the Holocaust will forever be a stain on humanity, but, that doesn’t give them the right to commit evil acts against others at the same time. Jewish folk have issues with black folk as well…liberal jews in the US have too much influence and power over african-americans, and we see the results of that on a daily basis. 8 people killed, 52 injured in Chicago this past weekend, yet, Mayor Rohm Emanuel has no earthly idea how to stop the bloodshed. This insanity is repeated in big cities all across this country. Black people don’t wanna acknowledge the ugly truth of what’s taking place…these are the people that control our so-called black leaders in this country, and have since the 1960s. For all the sensitive people, save the crocodile tears for somebody else…Not Interested!
Tyrone
Black Eagles
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Reblogged this on Mbeti's Blog and commented:
Truth About the Palestinian-Israelis Conflict.
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[…] Edward Said: Permission to Nar… on Abagond […]
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Edward said???
What did Edward say???
Hahahahaha LOL
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[…] “Edward Said: Permission to Narrate” (Abagond) […]
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