According to “If I Were A Poor Black Kid” by Gene Marks writing for Forbes, here is what is required if you are 13 or so to overcome racism, poverty and the digital divide:
- Brains
- Hard work
- A little luck
- Get the best grades possible.
- Make it your #1 priority to be able to read sufficiently.
- Do not care if you are a student at the worst public middle school in the worst inner city.
- Use a computer:
- at the library,
- at school or
- your parents’s computer. Many inner city parents usually have or can afford cheap computers and Internet service nowadays. If your parents are accountants or architects they might be able to get one for free! Otherwise TigerDirect and Dell’s Outlet sell them cheap.
- Become expert at Google Scholar.
- Visit study sites like SparkNotes and CliffsNotes to help you understand books.
- Watch relevant teachings on Academic Earth, TED and the Khan Academy.
- When possible, get your books for free at Project Gutenberg.
- Learn how to do research at the CIA World Factbook and Wikipedia.
- Use homework tools like Backpack, and Diigo to help you store and share your work with other classmates.
- Use Skype to study with other students who also want to do well in your school.
- Take advantage of study websites like Evernote, Study Rails, Flashcard Machine, Quizlet, and free online calculators.
- Be a special kind of kid.
- Get good test scores.
- Make it your goal to get into a magnet, charter or even private school.
- Use the Internet to research each one of these schools to find out how to be admitted. Find out the names of the admissions people and go meet with them.
- Private schools provide funding for not only tuition but also for transportation or even boarding: They want to show smiling, smart kids of many different colors and races on their fundraising brochures.
- Once admitted to a top school get to know the guidance counselor, who in turn will help you to go to college.
- Learn software, learn how to write code and get a part-time job.
- Make sure your writing and communication skills stay polished.
- Know the opportunities that are out there. The biggest challenge we face isn’t inequality. It’s ignorance.
- Want to be helped.
Pull those bootstraps! Harder!
Of course if you are white like Mr Marks you do not even have to use proper grammar and spelling to write for a big-time magazine like Forbes. You do not have to go two miles down the road to talk to any poor black schoolchildren! Just talk to some teachers, maybe watch “The Blind Side” and then just sit back and let the wishful thinking take over!
Since Marks wrote this for Forbes it is meant to help not poor blacks but rich whites – to help them feel good about their position in society by presenting poor blacks as failing to take advantage of opportunities, as not valuing education, as lacking brains and hard work.
See also:
You could’ve also begun or ended with The Help. Your frustration is
understandable but are you sure you’re not responding more to Marks
semi condescending tone rather than what he said? The truth is, he’s right,
and he’s right for all children of diminished means, regardless of their color.
People are the klutzs born of the unique slime out of which they come but
let strokes of help and wisdom come from wherever they come, as long
as one human being benefits.
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“The truth is, he’s right,”
Yeah – sure he is… whiteness and its club members are ALWAYS right!
Of course whites know what it IS to be both poor and black – and live in the hood, even more than blacks themselves.
*rolling my eyes and smh in utter disbelief*
@glenn horowitz
Look up Joshua Solomon of Silver Spring, MD – read his story about his experience in black skin and come back here and explain how being black and poor in America is something that “anyone” or everyone can or should overcome.
Thank you.
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“here is what is required if you are 13 or so to overcome racism, poverty and the digital divide”
How does doing any of these things help a 13 year old, or a black person of any age overcome racism?
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Its nice to have the most ignorant pose as the most intelligent and then write articles that implicate the rest of us (whites) in his bullshit. Is there any way to disown one’s race???
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My previous comment was directed at the author of this inane list.
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@ JT
“Is there any way to disown one’s race???”
You can’t stop receiving white privilege, but you can work against it.
Be and remain active in speaking out against whiteness’ inherent evils.
Don’t ever be silent in the presence of white bigotry, patriarchy, etc …
Talk to other whites about their racist behaviors.
Work on your own racist proclivities.
Learn to listen to and BELIEVE people of color …
And so on ….
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I’ve read the article, and a number of responses/rebuttals. Aside from the ham-handed and condescending tone of the original piece, the main point against it might be summarized as “black children shouldn’t have to be exceptional to get a decent education.”
Setting aside the “agency problem” of who is creating the adverse environment which prevents these kids from getting an education in the first place (and how to resolve it), one might simply ask: “Got a better suggestion, and if so, what is it?”
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I think Gene Marks is just perpetuating the racial divide. I feel like it’s that subtle racism that Abagond has spoken of in previous posts. I agree that regardless of color, there are too many kids in our country that don’t have access to the proper materials and resources. I don’t necessarily, (as a black person), agree that it is only limited to black people..yet Gene Marks seems to think that it is and apparently wants to exploit it.
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I think this Marks guy is a comedian who in his satirical way shines the light into the twisted idotism of some white americans. I guess. This guy can not be serious, can he?
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A few exceptional people are capable of overcoming tremendous obstacles but most people are not exceptional they are average. It’s not their fault they are average it’s just what most people are. The ghetto school system is set up so that most of the average who are the majority fail and live their lives out in poverty and hardship. When a few exceptional people overcome all the obstacles and prosper right-wingers smugly say “see it can be done if you work hard enough”. It’s a trap to keep the masses in poverty.
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I thought the advice was sound, but then I looked back at the name of the article and saw that it was “to overcome racism, poverty and the digital divide.” Ugh. Why not just call it “How to do well in school”?
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6.Do not care if you are a student at the worst public middle school in the worst inner city.
Unwittingly, putting this point in here merely acknowledges what many commenters on here have said previously – that access to decent education depends on locality and parental means. I wonder whether he has considered the effect on the individual trying to strive in this environment? I can say as an adult, if you work in a horrible workplace the effects of this will take its toll, let alone on a child..
16.Be a special kind of kid
Arent ALL children ‘Special’ in some way or other? Do this mean they have to be both gifted and talented above all else to stand a chance? What is this particular ‘Specialness’ that Black Children need to have?
24.Know the opportunities that are out there. The biggest challenge we face isn’t inequality. It’s ignorance
This is presuming that the child can get into a ‘decent’ school or have access to a ‘good education’ from the points he has made previously. It seems pretty redundant ‘knowing’ whats available if its inaccessible due to a less than glowing academic record and little to do with Ignorance on the part of the child and more to do with there being an excellent infrastructure in place to ensure that ALL children, whatever their background, are given the support to be able to access these opportunities.
25.Want to be helped.
!
What is the answer here I ask myself? Unfortunately, it seems that the guy who wrote this article is trying to suggest that it is the fault of the child if they face these limitations and are unable to overcome them. It seems that the highest kind of intervention is needed to ensure that there is no further disparity in terms of education, and the support therein.
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Right-wingers believe in survival of the fittest – for other people’s children.
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Mr. Marks may be well-meaning, but he is obviously clueless. All poor black kids have to do is follow a few simple steps and all their problems will be solved!
I agree with points 2,3,4,5, 7 & 23. They don’t appear to be condescending and apply to all kids. Hard work, computer usage, good grades, good writing skills and some luck are helpful things.
I think 8-15,18-21 and 22-24 are waaaaay out of touch. How would a poor kid necessarily know about or have access to things such as Skype, Project Gutenberg, TED, Academic Earth, etc? Number 22 recommends that disadvantaged kids should learn code and software for a part-time job. Easy to do, right? Number 24 suggests poor kids should know what opportunities are out there. This assumes they are well-connected as Mr. Marks is, and have the same opportunities and tools he had. And my all-time favorite…Ignorance is the main problem, not inequality.
I find the following quite offensive:
1) Brains. (Poor kids don’t have any)?
6) Do not care if you are a student at the worst public middle school in the worst inner city (Being poor and black is always linked to living in the inner city. More stereotypical than anything).
16) Poor black kids should be special kinds of kids.’ (As if they aren’t already).
20) Private schools want to show smiling, smart kids of many different colors on their fundraising brochures. (No one wants to be thought of as a charity case).
24) Want to be helped. (Really)?
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http://www.local10.com/news/Letter-from-a-poor-black-kid-Baratunde-Thurston-responds-to-Forbes-Gene-Marks/-/1717324/5674064/-/oigjgyz/-/index.html
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Áctually 25, is a pretty good one, but that should have been #1.
If that one is understood as overcome your fully justified distrust, and accept help if you find it finally.
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Oh, that Satoshi Kanazawa again…If I see that man’s name once again, I’m going to….Never mind.
Anyway, this is one of your simple, well written articles…..No mention of home schooling though.
Skype?…..Forgot all about it.
Wanting to be helped…..Yes, sometimes it is hard to want to be helped, especially if you are used to doing it your way….Although, I suppose it is good to want to be helped.
Sheltered?…..Erm, lots of people are sheltered, from all races and faces, I guess this could end up getting you into more trouble because it’s harder to spot problems when you haven’t mixed well with others….Guess we live and learn.
*Smiling* @ Bootstraps…..reminds me of school, untied shoe laces and not having a care in the world….But, yeah, I get your point or the point of the article/post.
Good article…..I suppose what I get from this is….Life is what you make it….The effort YOU put in determines your success. *clapping*
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“Áctually 25, is a pretty good one, but that should have been #1.”
“.. accept help if you find it ..”
@ Teddy
There’s a growing philosophy (that might have originated from Mr. Neely Fuller) which says: “Replace white supremacy/racism with JUSTICE.”
It’s sound logic regardless of how improbable it is ..
JUSTICE = never mistreating anyone.
JUSTICE = helping those who need the MOST help.
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I just love Mr. Marks’s simplistic ideology. What a clueless, head-in-the-sand cretin…
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sepultura13,
What advice would you give instead?
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“Life is what you make it….The effort YOU put in determines your success.”
Oh really?
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@ Matari
What do you mean by “oh really?”
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@ sepultura13
Sometimes it is best to keep it simple…..Those always seem to work out best….I guess if something is simple and straight forward, then more people can understand it, so better or higher success rate…..or what do you think?
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“Oh really?” means this:
Where I live I see people every day who put forth a tremendous EFFORT at life. Many of them are hardly what you would call successful.. barely living from hand to mouth, paycheck (if they are lucky to have regular full-time employment) to paycheck. Some of them are living in shelters …
Sometimes EFFORT (as in putting one’s nose to the grindstone ..) simply does not always equate to success – whatever success means.
Sometimes life isn’t about what YOU make it.
Sometimes life is just what it is.
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@ Matari,
Yes, I know what you mean, but generally I was commenting on what I got out of the article, or at least what I felt the person who wrote, Gene Marks, was trying to convey.
We all see things differently.
Yes, I was reading about more people becoming homeless in the USA just today.
Yes, you are right about EFFORT part, it doesn’t always work out that way, although I suppose the article inspired me to at least try a little, having achieved a few of the things in it.
LOL @ “get the best grades possible” part, especially as the teachers now give special coaching classes to some students so that the pupils now achieve straight A’s….I just thought the kids of today were more clever or something.
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If Marks had stuck to what he knows – technology – it might not have been such a terrible article. But not only did he go off into stuff he has little idea of – what it is like to be black and poor – he did not even gather any facts about it. As if West Philly, a black ghetto two miles from his house, was on the the far side of the moon or something. I mean if you are going to say stuff about going to “the worst public middle school in the worst inner city” maybe you should at least visit such a school and talk to the students, their teachers and parents. Pitch your ideas and see how they stand up. Listen to THEIR ideas. Is that so hard? I mean this was not some post on his private blog but for Forbes. A bit of care and due diligence seemed to be in order.
But of course the article has absolutely nothing to do with helping anyone black or poor. It was about upholding a crime, it was a piece of white people propaganda. And for that facts are poison. Deep down Marks knows that. Which is why he never left his house.
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Abagond,
Just to let you know, great minds think alike lol.
http://brothawolf.wordpress.com/2011/12/15/if-you-were/
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Abagond,
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, what advice would you offer that is different from Gene Marks’? I read lots of criticism of the article, but no one putting forth superior alternatives.
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@ Randy:
You have asked about solutions a couple of times. I won’t oversimplify things by compiling a list. The lack of equal access is the main problem, IMO. Unless the playing field is evened, opportunities for these kids will continue to be uneven. It’s unfortunate that some people think the playing field is even for everyone. They think, ‘My grandfather was an immigrant who came here in 1920 with $5 in his pocket. He worked hard and “made it. Why can’t they?’ I have found that people who think like this often blame the disadvantaged for their own circumstances. They think of poverty as a character flaw. Evening the playing field does not involve hand-outs but overall fairness. No thoughts of shirking personal responsibility here, but it is a lot easier to achieve and excel when you have access to certain environments, certain people and certain privileges.
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“Evening the playing field does not involve hand-outs but overall fairness. No thoughts of shirking personal responsibility here, but it is a lot easier to achieve and excel when you have access to certain environments, certain people and certain privileges.”
That’s it in a nutshell…
Those of us who live in the real world (not some insulated, isolated, gated community) have learned this important lesson:
“It’s not WHAT you know, it’s WHO you know and WHO you blow!”
For examples, look at Donald Trump, G. W. Bush, Paris Hilton and Clarence Thomas.
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@sepultura13
“It’s not WHAT you know, it’s WHO you know and WHO you blow!”
Why do you need to blow something to get ahead?……Assumption.
Some people may just have the gift of the gab, charming personality etc and I am not talking about smoking or blowing anything that pulls the imagination in THAT way, or maybe I have the wrong end of the stick over here.
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Nom De Plume:
Agreed. But how does that play as advice?
“Hey kid, you want to know how to get ahead? Well, society will need wholesale adjustments to make opportunities available to a broader section of the populace.”
I just don’t see how that narrative would actually help an actual kid.
Gene Marks’ advice is certainly easier to implement for a student from an affluent background, but nonetheless it still seems like the best shot for a student coming from a poor background.
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I know this will make some of you cringe, but institutionalized racism has a lot to do with the unfairness. When you are not affected by it, you don’t necessarily see it. If it is not seen or easily seen, then it doesn’t exist as far as some are concerned.
Parents may want their child to go to a particular good school, but if they can’t afford to live in a certain area, then the child can’t get into that school. If the parents can afford to buy a home in the nicer area, there is a chance that a real estate agent won’t show them properties because residents have made it known they don’t want people who look like the potential buyers living in their neighborhood. Believe it or not, there is a suburb not far from me where sellers won’t put up “for sale” signs when a home goes on the market.
Did anyone see that case on the news where a mom was jailed for putting a fake address on her child’s school papers so that he/she could be bussed to a better school? It’s sad when a person thinks they have to go to such lengths. I remember a commenter on another post basically saying that certain public schools are bad because the people in them are bad. What makes a public school good or bad a lot of times is money or lack thereof, depending on where the school is located. Teachers in some schools have been known to spend their own money for school supplies and textbooks because there is not enough money in the budget.
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@ Randy:
“But how does that play as advice”?
—-
As I mentioned up thread, there are practical things a child can do to make his sitution better. I agree with Mr. Marks in that hard work, good grades and computer skills are definite steps in the right direction. These are things within a child’s control. There are other things that are not in his control, such as where he lives, his parents’ education level and the family’s overall socio-economic status. There is only so much a kid can do on his own. If his parents don’t have a lot of education, money or connections, then they are less likely to know about or have access to necessary information and resources that will help their child compete with kids whose parents are higher up on the socio-economic ladder. Of course there are some underprivileged kids who do beat the odds, but they are in the minority.(
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Abagond,
Are you ill?
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@ Happiness:
I think my comment went past your ballpark.
@ Randy:
I don’t answer rhetorical questions.
I will address each point in Herr Marks’ article very soon, though – it will be shredded as the head-in-the-sand nonsense that it is, quite easily…
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@sepultura13
“I think my comment went past your ballpark.”
Yes, I think you are right, it probably did.
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Truer words have not been spoken. LOL Everyone I know who has been a success got there through connections. The blowing is true too. Sometimes even when you have all the powerful connections and those people know you are a reliable and hard worker, they are not willing to share a crumb of their pie by helping you after you did a lot of the work giving them their pie in the first place!
Gene is entirely ignorant of the reality. Hard work is often not enough when you’re a poor person of colour and, as others have already explained, there are a number of other factors out of the control of these children.
I am not Black, but I grew up in a poor household. I remember teachers were already expecting things to be printed at some point, but we couldn’t afford a computer until I was 15, let alone a printer. There were computers and printers at the school library, but I could only use those for half an hour a day during lunch break and I was stalked and bullied by other students because of their racism. I couldn’t concentrate on working in such an environment. The public library was a bus ride away… a bus ride we couldn’t afford. I was mentally and physically abused by other students, some teachers, strangers and even some of my own family (so even when we had a home computer, I wasn’t entirely safe). I got top grades despite this, but after 12 long years eventually the stress got to me. Then when I got the final grades that counted for the rest of my future, they were no longer up to par. Neither was my confidence in myself after all the bullying. None of Gene’s advice would have helped this situation, which I am sure continues to be a reality for many children growing up in poverty, with many more having it even worse than I did.
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Greetings. First time poster, long time reader.
That Mr. Marks’ comments are wrong-headed, lacking in substance and are too quixotic to be implemented in real life is something that we can all agree on.
But I am afraid that both you and the commenters above have not acknowledged the key ideas that are at the heart of Mr. Marks’ ideology. This is because. I believe, that most people interested in American race issues are usually focused on debating right-wingers, and not those people who share Marks’ left-wing conceit.
That conceit, consists of three beliefs, that I have identified below.
1. The most important problem that keeps underprivileged and disadvantaged people from advancing is a lack of information, particularly, information available via computer networks.
2. Technology, (particularly computer/communication technology) can solve structural problems such as poverty and discrimination, as it is technology that is the salvation of mankind.
3. Disembodied learning, such as that which takes place via Internet is as good as embodied learning, such as that which takes place in a classroom.
This is why men such as Nicholas Negroponte, can believe that giving one laptop to every child on Earth will solve all Third-World problems, why Wikipedians believe that they are critical to the progress of Africa, and why Mr. Marks believe what he believes.
But this is not a recent belief system, but a very old one deeply linked to the Idea of Progress; that technical progress = human progress. Francis Bacon outlined this in his Novum Organum. Rene Descartes separated body from mind, the result leading us to believe that reading a Wikipedia article can match the skills, procedure and bodily interaction of a real life teacher in a clean, uncrowded, properly furnished classroom. And the sum total of ideas from Auguste Comte to Kevin Kelly have caused them to believe that science, technology and information can solve all problems.
Even though the Black Experience stands as a mockery to the above belief system , never mind the last 100 years, they still believe. Because the modern world has left them with nothing left to believe in.
Which is why Mr. Marks can create such a list (I suppose he feels that poor inner city children are the target demographic of Forbes Magazine) and think it credible. Unfortunately, his list is merely the culmination of 500 years of Western thinking, and a belief system that is so inculcated in the minds of its believers is not so easily overturned.
In the end, the poor will get some 7 year old computers donated to them (with some God awful open source software) at a big press event with the usual hoopla and self congratulation. And that is the problem. The poor get the computers. The rich get the teachers.
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Ah, the leftists again, yes… Forbes, that commie magazine, yes…Mr Marks, that pinko…
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@ Satanforce
While Marks is clearly a technophile what limits him even more is that he thinks completely within the box of self-serving lies that most middle-class White Americans live by. He did not once break out of any of the four main frames of colour-blind racism:
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There is no way Marks can believe this. He is lying to himself and his readers. I doubt very much, for example, that he would send his own children to such a school. Nor would anyone who was in a position to avoid it.
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@ Randy
Like Marks, you apparently only want little changes that will not upset a social order that puts white people on top.
Maybe the best advice to give to poor black schoolchildren is to burn down their school. After all it is not being used to educate them but to keep them down. According to IQ tests American public high schools DESTROY the intelligence of most black people. They lose IQ points!
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Abagond said:
I’m afraid you may be missing the point in the same manner as so many other critics of the article.
Marks is NOT saying, “This is all you need to be successful.”
Rather, he’s stating, “If you find yourself in this difficult situation, here are some strategies to help you succeed.”
There is a fundamental difference between those statements which seems to have gone over the heads of so many people.
Allow me to offer an analogy:
A boat is foundering and several passengers are in the water. A man leans over the bow rail and tells them, “Here are some strategies you can use to keep from drowning.”
From the cabin comes howls of outrage and criticism towards the man.
“The boat should have been built to a higher standard!”
“The government should have implemented stricter regulations!”
“The captain has not demonstrated sufficient competence!”
The man is confused. Even if those comments are true, how do they help the folks currently in the water? Should the folks in the water simply be abandoned to their fate?
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Um, no.
in this instance, a better analogy would have been:
A boat is foundering and several passengers are in the water. overlooking, the lifebelts stacked a few meters away, and after making sure his own family and pet dog are confortably installed in the only lifeboat available, a man leans over the bow rail and tells the guys in the water, “You should have brought a diving suit, punks!”
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@ Dahoman X:
LOL. Excellent. Thanks.
@ Randy:
You are painting Marks as a clueless innocent. That he is not. He is trying to paper over a crime. He knows that. He knows that he and his family benefit from it.
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or better yet to add to your better analogy @Dahoman X
The man nicely safe and secure with his family taken care on the yacht. Yells to man trying to keep above the water, “You should have just learn to swim!”
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6. Do not care if you are a student at the worst public middle school in the worst inner city.
18. Make it your goal to get into a magnet, charter or even private school.
These two items seem contradictory to me.
—-
I don’t understand this one, either:
7…If your parents are accountants or architects they might be able to get one (a computer) for free!
If the kid’s parent is an accountant or an architect, chances are the advice wouldn’t apply.
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@ lifelearner
It is worse than even that. Remember this article appeared in Forbes. So it like him saying to other passengers on the yacht, “He should have just learned to swim!”
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@ Iris:
You get it.
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@ Nom De Plume
Oh right, that is even worse. When I read that I knew he was not one bit serious about helping poor people.
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@ Proud & Iris:
Thank you for your comments. They are among the best on this thread.
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Abagond:
I’d guess that the vast majority of white folks never frame issues of poverty, race, education, etc in terms of “papering over a crime.” And as economics is not a zero sum game, nobody benefits from an underemployed, underproductive, and undereducated poverty caste (black or otherwise).
Let me ask you this: had the article been penned by (black author)Ta-Nehisi Coates of The Atlantic, would your response have been different? If so, what does that say about the manner in which this article is being evaluated?
Does good advice become bad advice because of the race of the advisor?
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@ Randy
If TNC had said the same ish in Forbes then, yes, it would be highly suspect. It would look even worse if anything. It would remove all doubts about him being a Rented Negro. Because he knows full well that it is nowhere near as simple as Marks is saying.
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@ Randy:
What has gone over your head is that this appeared in Forbes, the self-named “Capitalist Tool”. And that is what Marks is. A tool.
Even if you did not know that it appeared in Forbes you can still tell the author is not serious about helping poor people. Like that bit about if your parents are architects or accountants or that it does not matter if you go to the worst school, etc.
How can you defend this stuff with a straight face? It is straight-up apologetics.
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@ Randy
Of course they do not frame it that way. Racism allows them NOT to frame it that way. But deep down they know just what is going on. They are not children.
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“Of course they do not frame it that way. Racism allows them NOT to frame it that way. But deep down they know just what is going on. They are not children.”
No..they aren’t children. But they treat us as if we are their unwanted, troublesome step kids.. Sadly we act like just like that we when we try to reason with them .. – attempting to cajole them to see the falsehoods and immorality and injustice about an existence they have absolutely no desire or interest to change.
Will someone please tell me what GAINS black people have accomplished since the civil rights era of the 1960s (or any other time) by appealing to the sensibilities and hearts of the white collective that’s not now being dismantled?
Click to access AmericansandRaceinAgeofObama.pdf
Of particular interest is the chapter titled:
Perceptions of Discrimination and Inequality in America.
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Abagond:
I think your comment illustrates a misconception about the focus of the article. When you say “it”, I’m guessing you’re referring to something along the lines of “how to address a lack of sufficient educational opportunities for poor black kids”.
I don’t think Marks is attempting such a grand scope and even disclaims that in the text. He’s saying, “here’s how to maximize your chances given your less-than-optimal situation”.
Abagond:
I would agree that Forbes is mostly crap. However, as I don’t know the author, I’m hesitant to automatically assume that he’s writing a cynical guilt-assuagement piece.
Abagond:
This I would consider a fair criticism, because it addresses the content of the article and not whether a white guy should be “allowed” to offer advice to black kids simply because he’s white (which smacks of political correctness).
I do agree that this part of point 7 is laughably ridiculous, although the advice about tigerdirect and dell selling cheap PCs is reasonable.
Abagond:
If that’s really your belief, then allow me to suggest that you don’t understand white folks as much as you think you do. Most do not feel personally or collectively guilty about the state of race relations or the socioeconomic conditions of black folks, although a great many do feel compassion regarding these subjects.
I’d wager that a large plurality of white folks would assume that Gene Marks wrote that article in the spirit of genuine caring and helpfulness.
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@Randy:
‘I’d wager that a large plurality of white folks would assume that Gene Marks wrote that article in the spirit of genuine caring and helpfulness.”
—
Probably because many are unable to relate to being poor, non-white and/or disadvantaged (in the same way these kids are).
@ Randy:
Most do not feel personally or collectively guilty about the state of race relations or the socioeconomic conditions of black folks…
—
I agree.
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@Abagond
Precisely! I mean really who reads Forbes, predominantly-mainstream aka-not poor black kids.
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Mr. Marks should have written about what he would do if he were a rich white kid, here’s a few of my examples:
Dad, instead of the Mercedes you promised me for graduation, could you buy a cheaper model and donate the difference to buying computers for the local public school that you wouldn’t let me go to.
Dad, instead of that ipad I wanted for Christmas, could you buy me a Kindle and a few more so I can give them to my friends at the local public school that you won’t let me go to.
Dad, instead of sending me to the private school, could you send me to the public school and spend that money on hiring teachers of color, buying books that reflect the experiences of all Americans, and requiring breakfast and lunch as part of the public school budget?
Dad, how about spending some of your time with me and my friends in school, we could use some mentoring from a technology expert.
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Gene Marks offered his own rebuttal to Baratunde Thurston’s rebuttal of his article:
http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2011/12/gene-marks-still-doesnt-get-it.html
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Abagond:
The racism that blacks deal with in today’s world revolves around money, power, and resources. Who has the most political power, economic power, cultural power, media power, and so forth. It doesn’t matter how intelligent and educated black people are, the same bulls**t is gonna pop-up. As black people, we still think it’s about skin color. In the minds of those who aren’t black, it’s about gaining power and keeping it. Why are roadblocks in the way of black success? Many of us lose sight of the fact that “blackness” represents real money on this planet. A lot of people are fat and happy right now because of black people and culture, and naturally, they want the gravy train to continue as long as possible. Better for them to make billions of dollars on our backs instead of ourselves. If black folk get it together, it becomes much harder for them to “Skate By” so to speak. Exploiting the mineral and oil resources in Africa are an example of what i’m talking about…Egypt…Libya…Sudan…Nigeria…South Africa, and so forth. Do we have control over the resources of our homeland, or do others?
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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I think youth of color or their parents need to write a rebuttal to that insipid list and give him a long list of suggestions about how he can become less of a product of white-privilege. I know i would co-sign that list and forward it to all of my contacts.
JT
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Here’s the real deal: People like Marks always believe that all one needs is a little “bootstrap pulling” to succeed. The problem is not everyone can even afford boots in this screwed economy.
Plus, his article pushes not only his own ignorance, but arrogance as well. He believes his point of view is the right course and will work for anyone regardless of race and class. He promotes his privileged white male view as the answer to problems going on in poor black communities.
Also, did anyone see that he contradicted himself immediately at the beginning of his article? He starts off by saying:
He’s right. The spread between rich and poor has gotten wider over the decades. And the opportunities for the 99% have become harder to realize.
“The President’s speech got me thinking. My kids are no smarter than similar kids their age from the inner city. My kids have it much easier than their counterparts from West Philadelphia. The world is not fair to those kids mainly because they had the misfortune of being born two miles away into a more difficult part of the world and with a skin color that makes realizing the opportunities that the President spoke about that much harder. This is a fact. In 2011.”
And then he says…
“I am not a poor black kid. I am a middle aged white guy who comes from a middle class white background. So life was easier for me. But that doesn’t mean that the prospects are impossible for those kids from the inner city. It doesn’t mean that there are no opportunities for them. Or that the 1% control the world and the rest of us have to fight over the scraps left behind. I don’t believe that. I believe that everyone in this country has a chance to succeed. Still. In 2011. Even a poor black kid in West Philadelphia.”
And the rest is pure whiteness.
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@ Randy:
I never ever said a white person could not write intelligently on something like this. Jonathon Kozol, for example, could maybe do it. But most whites will fail because, like Marks, they are too racist to have the intellectual humility and objectivity it would take to do it properly.
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@ Proud:
I have gone through the same sort of thing at work.
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The post and comments remind me of a line from Louis CK’s stand-up routine:
‘I’m not saying that white people are better. I’m saying that BEING white is clearly better. Who could argue?”
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Proud,
I’ve gone through some similar stuff growing up, especially in high school. The thing was it wasn’t so much the teachers that gave me a hard time (accept for one white guy), it was a group of white boys, especially one.
I was “cool” with most of them growing up, but it changed when this one white boy moved in. Soon, they formed their own cliche. This boy was a smartass and loved to pick on others. But, he and his new friends (my old friends) loved to jump on me if i made a mistake, no matter how little, and they loved to make fun of me. I didn’t want to fight for several reasons. One of them was that it was a predominantly white school.
This kid moved when we were sophomores, but I found out that white conceitedness still remain, and it was more than extremely likely that it was there before he came. What am I saying? Of course it was there. I was just too stupid to see it back then.
I think that’s why I blog about the stupid and crazy shit white people say, think, and do a lot.
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So the guy admits that being white and middle class has its advantages but says its still not outright impossible that opportunities still exist for poor black kids out there and then gives a list of ways to try and take advantage of them, one of them even essentially says be a one of a kind, better than the average person sort, so he’s not exactly painting it as easy…….even mentions that part of the problem is these children were never taught by anybody about what opportunities they have or effective social systems to help them like his own children have.
And he doesn’t say black children aren’t smart enough as compared to white children, he specifically says even his own children aren’t smart enough, probably because you know they are children.
And the response is to say that he’s wrong and racist for trying to think of ways that a kid could have a better life?
I mean its not “bad” advice, if children were to follow it their odds of being successful would probably be okay; they could probably become somewhere around low level middle class.
The fact is; it is hard to be a poor black kid in some inner city hellhole, but to say they should just give up and stop trying like you guys seem to be going at doesn’t really seem to be helping the situation.
Also what about lived experience, hear alot of times about discounting a persons personal lived experience vs facts and statistics, but as soon as a POC who started out poor in a horrible place manages to make something of themselves and offers similiar advice, they just get shot down and told that not everyone is like them that they are something special.
All of a sudden their lived experience doesn’t count.
Fact is; in a world of brutal racism, the only real choice if you want to succeed, presuming you don’t win the lottery, are an artist or good at sports, is to be notably better than the white people around you. While not pointing it out; because you don’t want them to feel threatened or intimidated by your superiority.
Though I remember hearing about how often some of their biggest problems for children like this who want to succeed are people in their own enviroment or even their own family.
Having to put up with your parents or siblings etc….making rude comments or trying to break your spirit can’t be easy or having to worry about a group of people getting together to beat the unholy hell out of you because you got a hundred on a test has to be a problem as well.
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“It’s not WHAT you know, it’s WHO you know and WHO you blow!”
now this here is TRUTH!!!
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I believe that everyone in this country has a chance to succeed. Still. In 2011. Even a poor black kid in West Philadelphia.
When I lived in central ward Newark, NJ a few years ago, I literally lived across the street from crack dealers near Shabazz High School. I saw a lot of action in that neighborhood but the one thing that stands out in my memory to this day was a mom coming through the snow to buy crack with her young daughter. The daughter couldn’t have been much older than 3. The mother purchased the crack with her left hand, and in her right hand she was holding her daughter’s hand who was standing next to her at all of about 2 and half feet tall.
I remember being struck by one inescapable fact: that young girl never have a chance.
Gene Marks’ optimism is commendable, but it’s simply not realistic to think that everyone has a chance to succeed because not everyone does.
Good post.
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Gene Marks check list was nothing more than buckets and buckets of words!
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“What we are seeing is a failed educational system in the cities for example it is training for unemployment and prison.” –Bill Ayers Dec. 2011
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I think although some of Marks’ advice wasn’t on the mark -so to speak- that fatalism is generally not a good thing. People from back in the day came from MUCH less and thrived under MUCH more difficult circumstances than we face today.
Yes, racism still exists and many whites are either complicit or clueless. Now that we know that what do we do?
It’s never bad advice to tell people to stay in school, get as much education as they can and look for ways to succeed. The game is rigged but we still have to play.
Basically are we gonna go out and battle the Dragons of racism and ignorance and poverty or are we gonna sit there in the cave and sulk about how it’s not fair that we don’t have this or that. The fight is on.
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This is probably one of the most depressing things I’ve read all year. A man who offers sound advice (barring a few small items) to poor and disadvantaged children is roundly castigated by those who purport to care about such kids.
Why the opprobrium? Because the author happened to be a white guy, and the advice apparently lacked “cultural sensitivity”.
I have news for all of the critics: the world has moved on from caring about “cultural sensitivity”, and those at risk can either get with the program or else be consigned to perpetual economic serfdom.
At this very moment, tens of millions of Chinese, Indian, Korean, and other students from around the world are studying themselves ragged in a bid to compete in the global economy.
Westerners are already competing against such folks (whether they know it or not) and that competition will only continue to grow dramatically.
Anyone who thinks the past 30 years were uncharacteristically darwinistic is surely in for a great shock as such pressures are escalating, not subsiding.
Just as an example of how education is perceived in other places around the world:
From the article “One Shot Society” in The Economist
From the article “The Big Test” in Foreign Policy regarding the Gaokao, China’s university entrance exam:
These are the folks American children will be competing against for jobs. Can you imagine trying to explain to a Chinese or Korean parent that in the US, a writer was broadly criticized for giving advice to poor minority children, not because the advice was bad, but because it lacked “cultural sensitivity”?
If you actually succeeded in convincing them that the story wasn’t made up, they’d probably laugh themselves to tears, perhaps smirking a bit about the foolish manner in which the American empire manifests its own senescence.
Cultural sensitivity? That ship has sailed. The mantra for the 21st century is “learn or perish.” Full stop.
And anyone who fails to instill a great sense of urgency in the next generation regarding the skills and education required in the global economy are complicit in perpetuating the shackles of poverty.
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This is probably one of the most depressing things I’ve read all year. A man who offers sound advice (barring a few small items) to poor and disadvantaged children is roundly castigated by those who purport to care about such kids.
Maybe it took a blog such as this to cause your chronic depression to come to the fore. You should be thankful. Go see a doctor for treatment or go drink a quart of liquor. Now the doctor may prescribe medication and shock treatment which may cost a fortune seeing how you Yanks have no public health care. Liquor may be a cheaper form of treatment as you can drink yourself senseless. For shock treatment, you can take a shower, get out and stick your hand in a socket or outlet. Randy, you just don’t get it.
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@ Herneith
“Randy, you just don’t get it.”
********************
That’s truly an UNDERSTATEMENT if I’ve ever seen one!
Once upon a time, Ma’am, I’d be tempted to attempt to break this down in the most simplest of terms so that even our resident super-geniuses could fathom the irony of cause and effect…. but I’d just be wasting my time and energy as others here have – trying to help the blind see that which they cannot ..
At least he won’t be able to say, on that day, “No one tried ..”
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@ Shady_Grady
I like most of what you just posted, but I’m not sure I agree with this:
“The game is rigged but we still have to play.”
Doesn’t change (revolution) happen when people finally realize that the game is rigged and consequently STOP their participation in it?
How does enabling a crooked and evil socio-economic system truly benefit the people and their progeny in the long or short term?
You said that “the fight is on.”
Are those really fighting words, or just some more “wolf tickets?”
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@Randy:
Cultural sensitivity? That ship has sailed. The mantra for the 21st century is “learn or perish.” Full stop.
And anyone who fails to instill a great sense of urgency in the next generation regarding the skills and education required in the global economy are complicit in perpetuating the shackles of poverty
——–
I know all too well about the new global economy we’re living in, and how the landscape has shifted. I would venture to say that like some of us here, you’re from a middle class (or possibly wealthy) background, are educated and have educated parents. You see what’s going on in the world, and are acutely aware that we Americans need to have a new sense of urgency about the changes that are happening around us. Why? Because somewhere in your background, someone knew enough to instill (your word) in you the importance of keeping up with such matters. I have a couple of questions for you. Given the limited resources these kids have, who is going to “instill” in them the things you mention above? And given the limited resources, would be “complicit in perpetuating the shackles of poverty?”
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@ Randy:
‘This is probably one of the most depressing things I’ve read all year.’
—–
For those of us on this thread who see the world from a different perspective, this is probably one of the most depressing things we’ve read all year, too…but for different reasons.
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Randy,
It’s not just because you don’t get it that’s frustrating. It’s that you DON’T WANT to get it that’s the problem.
The point of this and other blogs reacting to Mr. Mark’s article is that he doesn’t know what it’s like to be poor or black. He hasn’t experienced American life through the perspective of a black person, but he sees his success as something that anyone can obtain if they tried hard enough and are smart enough. Marks is simply saying that poor blacks and their youth are too lazy and too ignorant to do anything. I question how he became a success in the first place. In any case he, in his own words, is trying to say that he knows what’s best for black people than…black people do, similar to how you think. No disrespect, just bring real.
Maybe Marks’ intentions were genuine. Maybe they’re not. I don’t know. What I do know is that his “advice for success” is laughable. superficial, and arrogant. Besides, why would a poor black kid read Forbes’ in the first place?
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@ Randy
I think both you and Marks know what the deal is with poor black schools. You cannot be that innocent and brainless. Neither of you. Your act of cluelessness is extremely unfunny. You just choose not to get it because of what it would say about your place in American society and what a fraud it is.
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Apart from repeatedly stating the obvious and even being redundant I find this list to be a crock for so many reasons.
America is far from being a meritocracy, this list conveniently leaves this out, knowing your stuff and working hard usually gets you worker bee status, being “buddy buddy” and “scratching backs” can get better results faster, plug color and gender into that.
Being able to read well, being computer literate and trying to get good test scores isn’t bad advice but when you take in the list on a whole, it’s pretty much saying that in order to even have a shot at not living in poverty, rainbows need to shoot out of your ass, you have to be impervious to peer pressure, depression, self doubt/loathing, rejection and all the other obstacles introduced or compounded by being poor. The average person is well..average and most likely will not overcome these. Meanwhile other kids are getting “just for showing up” trophies and their destructive behavior is labeled “a phase”.
On point # 7, You mean if my parents are accountants or architects I can get a free PC? Get real, that fits into this list, how? I’m not downplaying ignorance as a factor, but I wonder if he kept a straight face when he was writing #24. Tell that to black job applicants without a prison record who have less chance of receiving a call back than white ones who do. I guess they didn’t study on Skype.
Not only did he grace us with his keen insider notes for success but this is supposed to help end racism! I don’t know if he is sheltered or down right dishonest, it may even be both either way an article of this nature popping up in Forbes is highly suspect from the get go.
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“I think both you and Marks know what the deal is with poor black schools. You cannot be that innocent and brainless. Neither of you. Your act of cluelessness is extremely unfunny. You just choose not to get it because of what it would say about your place in American society and what a fraud it is.”
Like I said, Abagond, Randy doesn’t want to get it, and I know he is an intelligent man.
The problem is that you (Randy) have been trained not to take the words of people of color seriously when they disagree with the white mentality simply because they are “different” from you, a “normal” guy. There are more than one way to see the world, and seeing it through a white lens won’t help you learn not only about the real world, but about yourself as well. Continuing not to see what we see is a sign of blindness, not knowledge.
I’m not saying that you have to agree with everything we say per sae, but we shouldn’t have to agree with everything you and other white males say when it comes to who we are and what we should do.
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Nom De Plume:
Good questions.
As for “who” would instill the ideas mentioned above, that would fall to leaders within those communities, thinktanks which focus on the issues of the poor, NGOs whose missions are to reduce poverty, activists, church leaders, sociology researchers, college professors, journalists, etc. One could compile a large list of persons at least nominally involved in anti-poverty work or issues.
Those who I suggest are “perpetuating the shackles of poverty” are the ones telling kids that the system is stacked against them while at the same time not cluing them in on what they can do to help benefit themselves despite that. I would say that many of these folks have revealed themselves in their condemnation of Marks’ article.
Surely Marks’ advice has to be helpful to someone and hurtful to no one. I would think that kids who attend failing schools and live in struggling communities could use all the positive encouragement they can get.
brothawolf:
Marks isn’t saying “here’s all you need to make up for living in a poor community with failing schools.” His message is, “here’s what you can do to make the most of your situation.” There’s a huge difference between these statements.
brothawolf:
Perhaps you’ve struck the heart of the matter. The narrative goes something like this: “How dare a middle-class white man tells poor black folks what to do! What does he know about being black?”
Allow me to answer your question simply: because type of advice that Marks offered will help to maximize the chances of success of all people regardless of race.
Maybe at the root of this controversy is a belief that black children must only receive “black advice”, which somehow differs from the kind of advice which promotes success in all other non-black people around the world.
Well, I’m willing to be open minded. I would like for someone to give me an example of so-called “black advice” which differs from Marks’ insufficiently black advice.
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@randy: Heres the problem. You see the world as a zero sum game, a combat zone where people either sink or swim, kill or be killed. That is not true. Economical darwinism is just a one ideological piece of dodoo behind which the very few who raped your country, looted its riches, can hide. You have eaten their fairytales so much that you can not see the problem. You actually belive what they teach to you without any critisism.
In a word, you are just a pawn in their game and they stole your future, the future of your counrty and nation, ruined its economy, its society because you and millions like you believe their lies. You actually believe in their sermon, you have faith in their system, which, by the way, is putting you down and shaking your life worse than any crack dealing gangbanger ever.
Learn the history of country. Just look what was the taxation back in 1950’s when USA was unquestionable Number One in ther world. Yeah. Back then the rich actually paid taxes as well as companies. You had a good functioning educating system and pretty good public health care. You get it? Just look when and how the slide downwards began. Yeap. From Nixon onwards to the free fall or Reagan years and totall disaster of Bush era.
In 1960’s the political ethos was to better the society, Now it is to rape it and you along side with it. Call them bankers, yuppies, predators or pirates or what ever, but they are the reason for you anxienty. It is them who stole the billions which could have been used in schools, education, development of society, investments on reseacrch and healthcare etc. They are not thinking about you or your nation. They are for it themselves.
The minute they stole from you tax money 770 billion dollars, the bosses of one of the biggest beneficiaries held a meeting and gave themselves more than 6 billion dollars in bonuses. Nine guys shared more than 6 billion of YOUR MONEY between themselves. Think about that and say that if a nice little black kid in decaying school with no money just gets his act together, he can win.
And before you start to repeat their mantra about the left like some drugged up zombie, check out what Ike Eisenhower said about the big business. Check out what FDR said about them. Neither of them was too much of a commie, despite what some brainwashed dumbs asses believe or some propagandists cry.
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Randy,
Here’s the reality, white people as a whole have been wrong about black people since the moment they laid eyes on them. From them being genetically inferior to thinking that they know better about them than they do. It’s no exaggeration. It’s fact. White folks have never gotten it right about us except for a handful of whites.
I would not open up an article telling them that there are barriers that prevent poor black kids from getting an education and a career, and then take it all back within the rest of the article. That makes no sense. The youth deserve the truth about the world they live in, the ugly, uncensored truth. Yes, we can tell them about the benefits of getting good grades and using technology and books to help, but at the same time, they NEED to know they are growing up in a white supremacist nation where skin color matters.
Poor black kids need to know they have to work twice or even three times as hard just have their foot in the door. They need to know that people will look at their skin first and their humanity LAST. They need to know that most white people can not be fully trusted. They need to know that whiteness is around them 24/7. They need to know they are judged harshly for any little action they do as opposed to their white counterparts. They need to know more than just their ABC’s. They need to know how to navigate the streets. They need to know their past, including the history prior to European colonization and slavery. They need to know who they really are instead of what society tells them what they are. They need guaranteed support from reliable sources that will help them get the best education they deserve. They need to know that there is nothing wrong with them even though society wants to see them fail. They need all this and more.
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@ Brothawolf, Sam & Gen:
All excellent comments! Thank you.
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@ Matari
Hi. My point is that absent some sort of unforseeable revolutionary transformation in white people’s hearts or a demographic change in America that would change it to majority black, racism isn’t going away. It has the potential to impact me and mine as soon as I step out of my home-whether it’s the company that promotes someone with fewer qualifications, the cop that stops me just to harass me, the banks that makes me jump thru extra hoops to get a loan, the waitress that tries to sit me next to the kitchen or any number of other large or small issues.
I can’t control those things.Changing or controlling other people’s behavior is very difficult. But I can control my own behavior, education and preparation. So if someone who is more successful than me tries to pull my coat and says “Shady these are the things that have worked for me” I’m not automatically going to ignore them as malicious , absent some other evidence.
It’s not about enabling a crooked and evil system so much as it is surviving under it. Some of the true enablers of this system are the people that lose themselves and do not fully exploit their God given talents or worse (from self-hatred) fall into exploiting or harming people that look just like them.
The fight I am speaking of is not only a struggle to change the external factors of which we all are aware but also an internal one to be the best human being you can be. That is to say that if there is a wall of racism in front of us, we find a way to go through it, over it, around it, under it, whatever it takes. And we never stop trying-even if things look bleak. Because giving up and dropping out and calling that some sort of moral decision is in my view a mortal sin, given that our parents found success battling against much worse odds.
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sam:
Globalism is real and here to stay as far as anyone can predict. Companies can and do locate their businesses wherever they can maximize return on investment. If your country has high costs and (relatively) lower education, then you’re on the wrong side of history. In the US, we’ve seen a dramatic offshoring of manufacturing jobs and lately, increasing numbers of higher value-chain occupations such as engineering and accounting.
sam:
Well, nobody actually asked my opinion on the matter.
I am however attempting to react appropriately to living under such adverse economic circumstances. That’s quite a different perspective than wanting it to be that way. In this regard, I teach my children that opportunities in the West have greatly diminished from prior generations. There’s less and less room to be mediocre and still enjoy a safe and secure lifestyle, with access to education, healthcare, and a future for their own children.
sam:
Agreed. But since I want my own children to be able to put food on the table in 20 years and afford a doctor’s visit, I push them. Why? Because they’ll be competing with kids from other parts of the world whose parents are pushing theirs. I would suggest that anyone who is fond of 3 meals a day and a roof over their heads ought to be doing the same.
This belief and practice doesn’t require that one likes the globalized economy, just that one recognizes that it’s here and deals with it appropriately.
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@Shady_Grady
Nope, racism isn’t going anywhere anytime soon, BUT, that’s not to say that there aren’t proven battle tactics that can be utilized to bring about meaningful changes. Whiteness hates to have its profits and balance sheets altered. Are not blacks and others of color a potential economic force/block that could bring CHANGE? I’m thinking along the lines of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, but on a much wider, broader scale. Lack of revenue has a stark way of capturing the hearts and minds of those who experience this lack!
The American colonists revolted against the Brits for less.
When the French people have their fill – let’s just say they have a way (still) of taking matters to the street.
Even Jesus got fed up and went into the Synagogue and tossed out the crooked money changers.
My point is how much more should Blacks/POC go along, to get along, with a system that exists only to exploit the weak and marginalized? Seemingly, a little material COMFORT trumps doing what’s fight – and not upsetting the apple-cart.
How much further should America compromise her core values and morals.
That is if those things still exist any more..
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@randy: I understand and it is ok to make it clear for ones kids that they need an education and support them at that. I’ve done the same. No pushing but supporting.
“Globalism is real and here to stay as far as anyone can predict. Companies can and do locate their businesses wherever they can maximize return on investment. If your country has high costs and (relatively) lower education, then you’re on the wrong side of history. In the US, we’ve seen a dramatic offshoring of manufacturing jobs and lately, increasing numbers of higher value-chain occupations such as engineering and accounting.”
That is what happened when the representatives who were supposed to look after our best interests did bend over and spread their butt cheeks for the big companies to come in and do as they please. Globalisation is a one myth promoted by the same guys who stole your national wealth. They wanted it, they corrupted politicians, fooled all with their propaganda machine and now people just think that it all just happened. No, they did it in order to make more money.
You see, they are doing the same for Europe what they did to you guys in 2008 and european politcians are just spreding their cheeks in turn, instead of taking their political power back from such private manipulators as Standard & Poors etc. Instead of bending over for them our leaders should be putting those guys in prisons. Why? Because they are liars, for starters. Don’t believe me?
Just one day before the Lehman Bros fiasco all the major players like Standard & Poors gave triple AAA for that particular bank. That is one, 1 day before it became the biggest single financial collapse i human history. And it is good to remember that those guys still made millions and millions once the catastrophe came. They just took the wealth of United States of America and pocketed it.
And just to show that education does not mean a dodoo for these guys, check the PISA rating of Finland. Yeap. And just last year we lost thousands of jobs, Nokia alone booted out thousands. So they don’t give sheit about education. They just want to steal your money, one way or another. Like using extortion. Happened in USA 2008 and happens right now in Europe.
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sam,
You and I don’t disagree in this instance.
Were I in any position to do so, I would perhaps take a sterner line than you and deliver a bit of shock and awe to American students (of all races): “Here’s some math. If you don’t want to your family to starve in 10 years, you’d better shut up, pay attention, and learn this.” More importantly, I’d tell their parents.
An excess of “social promotion” and self-esteem building in the education system is just preparing the poor lambs for slaughter. Education is a bureaucracy, and bureaucracies by their nature lack decisiveness and courage. They state what they think their audience wants to hear, not what persons of competence within their organization truly believe.
I think American students would generally benefit from a sharp dose of fear. Not so much as kids in Korea and China hear, but enough to shatter their complacency.
sam:
Without such an educated workforce, Finland would have likely lost even more jobs.
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If Skype is the answer to racism, poverty and even the digital divide, then why aren’t more people using it?
We all do a lot of talking these days and take no action, myself included.
The world is burning everyday and here we are talking about obscure issues.
Abagond, I like your blog and everything, but I’m not so sure that I am going to be posting much in it anymore, besides I have never seen you post a comment on my blog ever before.
Besides, forget about Skype, people need to pick up the phone more and speak to the people who are dear to them, life is so short and the clocks are ticking.
If you have something to say to anyone in THIS life, pick up the phone and stop depending on bloody Skype, the world is coming to an end…..Maybe I’m the only one who can see this.
Time is going.
Also, someone who is common to you and I died recently (a few days ago), can you tell me who that is when you get a spare moment please….I’m tired of beating about the bush, I notice you do that a lot…..No offence.
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@Happiness
“Abagond, I like your blog and everything, but I’m not so sure that I am going to be posting much in it anymore, besides I have never seen you post a comment on my blog ever before.”
I don’t mean to pry, but…what?
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Hi brothawolf,
What do you mean by “I don’t mean to pry, but…what?”
I don’t get your question. Maybe, if you are more specific then I can answer you.
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Happiness,
I’m just curious, but you seem to have some animosity towards Abagond. Is because he never posted a comment on your blog, or something else?
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@ Happiness
I generally do not have enough time to post comments on other blogs. So it is nothing personal. If I see a blog post I love or hate then I might either cross post it or write a post on it myself. Like this one.
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brothawolf,
Animosity?…..Not really….Why would I hold animosity for someone I hardly know? That’s bizarre.
Anything I do or do not know about Abagond would be something communicated through a third party or something I read on this blog, which could be questionable information…..I go with facts and not necessarily what I have been told or heard in a conversation, spoken, written or otherwise, directly or indirectly, by someone who may or may not be telling me the whole truth….Then again, we all think differently.
The problem with the Internet, many of which I have discussed with people I know at length, is that it gives you a false impression about people and about things, in general.
For example, if I was laughing hysterically at a funny video, you wouldn’t be able to tell, if I was crying too, you wouldn’t be able to tell because you can’t see me.
Instead of using Skype and all those things, personally, I prefer to communicate with people by talking to them, either over the phone, or face to face. With those methods of communication, you can see faces, express feelings, and see, feel and read body language….Of course Skpe is a kind of substitute to that.
Half the misunderstandings that occur in the world would not happen if people spoke face to face, read, digested and understood completely what they were being told.
I hate all those messenger things because you have to type and type, I prefer to meet real people in real life or speak to them over the tekephone, instead of all the Skype and other rubbish. Anyway, I guess if your loved ones were far away and there was no computer then that would be the best alternative method of communication, besides carrier pigeon.
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Another thing, although Abagond has many great posts and articles on the blog, I find that I am constantly trying to decode riddles….Maybe, it’s just the way I think, I really don’t know.
I’ll continue to read and pass by once in a while, but I am generally tired of the Internet and interacting with people I hardly know, can’t see and possibly never see or know either.
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Something that underlies Gene Marks’s article and that of most comments by whites is that they could do black poverty better than poor black people themselves. The truth is, if you took their money, education and white skin from them – if they woke up one morning black and poor with little education – they would probably do far worse.
Middle-class White Americans think they are where they are because they understand how the world works while black people do not. It is NOTHING like that. It has almost nothing to do with intelligence and almost everything to do with power.
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“The truth is, if you took their money, education and white skin from them – if they woke up one morning black and poor with little education – they would probably do far worse.”
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
They would literally break down.
A physical, mental and emotional break down as white Joshua Solomon of Silver Spring, MD experienced after living as a black male for only 3 or 4 DAYS.
– not weeks, months or years..
DAYS!
(He had planned to live as a black man for at least a month.)
BTW, young Mr. Solomon wasn’t poor either. When he embarked on his “experiment” he had plenty of cash at his disposal, so it wasn’t a matter of poverty. He simply couldn’t handle the levels of “psychic assaults” upon his newly entered “black” person-hood, consequently ending his foray into what he had previously thought was an over exaggerated reality.
He LEARNED first-hand that his black associates/friends were telling him the unmitigated TRUTH about THEIR reality!
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The REALITY television show I would LOVE to see: Take Marks or some other white person who talks about bootstraps, make him black and then drop him in a poor black ghetto in some faraway city where he knows no one. And let him start with that $25 in his pockets that white people so love to talk about in their Bootstrap Speech. See if he can last 60 days without talking (directly or indirectly) to anyone he knew from before. Interview him before the 60 days and then after. Ask the SAME questions.
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@Matari:
They would literally break down.
A physical, mental and emotional break down as white Joshua Solomon of Silver Spring, MD experienced after living as a black male for only 3 or 4 DAYS.
—-
This vid may be on another thread, but I just had to add it. Interesting how Oprah used the word “psyche.” Joshua said that as a white man, no matter how much money he had in his pocket, he got a certain amount of prima facie respect. As a black man he didn’t.
http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Black-for-a-Day-Video
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When Mr. Marks admitted that he was a piss poor accountant whose main failing was his penchant for committing “rounding errors”, I knew that his article was going to be full of bullshit (in his byline, he gives this information with not a whit of shame.)
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“.. it is sanctimonious and vulgar to pretend we have any right to pose as enlightened advisors to the victims of those things we are too weak to confront.”
http://www.timwise.org/2011/12/if-i-were-a-poor-black-child-white-saviorism-and-the-politics-of-personal-responsibility/#more-894
Tim Wise weighs in on the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY OF Mr. Marks – and others like him.
Excerpts:
“What is Marks going to do (and what are the rest of us going to do) to challenge the unequal educational resources between the kinds of schools that Marks’s children (and many of ours) no doubt attend, and the ones that serve mostly low income persons of color? The impoverished have no control over budgetary allocations, little say in teacher assignments (which often result in the most experienced and effective teachers being assigned to affluent white students and the least experienced and least effective being herded into rooms for the black and poor), and almost no power to influence so-called ability tracking schemes (which are more about race and class than actual ability), or racially-disparate discipline (under which black kids are suspended about 3 times as often as whites despite similar rates of misconduct). Unless and until white parents of means begin to demand equity in education, and join in solidarity with those persons of color and the poor who have long demanded change, those structures will likely continue unabated. And until we commit to challenging ourselves and each other about the need for such change — and piercing the denial and ambivalence that too often prevents us from acting on the truth — such solidarity is equally unlikely.
What is Marks willing to do (and what are we willing to do) to confront racial profiling, police brutality, job discrimination, or housing discrimination, all of which continue to divide the nation racially and marginalize people of color, regardless of their own behaviors, values or work effort? Is he (and are we) prepared to confront our political leaders about their own persistent refusal to address such concerns? Are we prepared to withhold support from those who seek our votes but don’t take racial equity seriously?
Are we prepared to challenge our own employers about policies, practices and procedures that may have a disparate impact upon people of color, even if not intentionally? Are we prepared to challenge old boy’s networks for jobs or college admissions, even when those may work to our own benefits or the benefits of our kids? Is Gene Marks, for instance, willing to not seek out better opportunities for his own children (after all, their mediocrity suggests they surely haven’t earned them)? If they decide to go to whatever college Marks attended, is he willing to eschew using his alumni status to help land them in his alma mater on the legacy tip? Is he willing to challenge his readership to do the same: to not pull strings to get jobs for their kids, or internships, or seats in prestigious universities?”
….
Unless the answer to all those questions is yes — and sadly, I know that for most of us the answer is not — then it is sanctimonious and vulgar to pretend we have any right to pose as enlightened advisors to the victims of those things we are too weak to confront. Especially when we (or others like us) are the ones who set the systems up that way in the first place, and we who, at least in relative terms, continue to reap the benefits of those institutional arrangements.”.
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The truth is, he is wrong.
What I can say for white people, since they have a hard time saying it themselves is this:
We have all around given black people and other people we’ve exploited continuously a bad deal, particularly blacks we were able to do this by taking everything they had and depriving them of it all starting back when we were just peasants and enslaved people to do hard labor work for us. This isn’t just in the past because the past generations have reaped the benefits that the future generations are enjoying directly and indirectly.
Even though we did not have to work half as hard as the average black person does to get where we are today—NOT because we are any smarter or wiser–but simply bc what we took from them in the beginning we were able to build on throughout the years of them not having ANYTHING. In the white mind, forget what happen in the past, that we benefited tremendously from slave labor and the likes. Just don’t mention that. In essence, we started with not much of anything, exploited you for all we could, made a “killing”, and now we have the glory, but you— you had not much of anything, you were exploited as we took all we could, and now you are just so damn pathetic since you don’t have what I have mostly by means of exploitation of people like yourself. Now, since things are all “equal opportunity”…now since you don’t have much, as you didn’t to begin with, you need to start over and try harder in every single thing you do. Now, little black kids, just take the 3rd class school system you are in and do the best you can with it! NOTHING is wrong with the fact that you are in a 3rd class school system, it’s YOU that’s the problem. After all, nothing was EVER handed to white people. Geez…
What a fluke!
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he forgot the rest…
#26. Make sure that the nanny keeps your little brothers and sisters quiet while the governess attends to your studies, preferably by taking them all to Disneyland so you can focus better.
#27. If your SAT’s are low, don’t forget to purchase the great SAT courses available for just a few hundred.
#28. Don’t forget, rich people were NOT born on third base, they just hit triples! All the time!
Seriously, though-Most of this is good advice, and has been used by many a person to succeed, but most people aren’t super smart, super motivated, or super lucky, and some people really have it tough. Is this guy for real?
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This article made me angry. Did you see how he responded to most of the comments? He just didn’t care enough to get it.
Blaming poor people for their poverty and telling them to just pull up their socks and do better is way too simplistic. Poverty is a combination of many factors many of which the people in it have no control over. If it was so easy to get out of poverty we wouldn’t have the Third World now would we?
I am privileged, i grow up in a stable home with super supportive parents who afforded me all the opportunities. I can’t say the same for the poor kids who live in the slums all over the third world and I can’t certainly say the same for those “poor Black kids” in America’s urban cities.
Poverty shall only end in this world as soon as we over-turn the systems that set it up and encourage it. Period.
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@ Randy:
“This is probably one of the most depressing things I’ve read all year.”
Its so disturbing that after all these decades there is still this invincible line dividing people, that Blacks are so pitied, feared and frowned upon. I still can’t wrap my head around how Apartheid even got started…why are Blacks still viewed through feces smeared glasses?
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I wonder how many poor black kids read Forbes? And if they don’t fall within the demographic that reads this publication then what’s his true purpose for writing this article?
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@ Trevor
Exactly. It is a piece of white apologetics framed as Concern.
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I looked at his bio on Forbes and googled him. I see nothing whatsoever to suggest he has the slightest idea what he is talking about.
I cannot believe someone is that ignorant, and that stupid, as to write something like that. Worse, he put his picture on it. He really believes he is that wonderful?
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Abagond,
The REALITY television show I would LOVE to see: Take Marks or some other white person who talks about bootstraps, make him black and then drop him in a poor black ghetto in some faraway city where he knows no one. And let him start with that $25 in his pockets that white people so love to talk about in their Bootstrap Speech. See if he can last 60 days without talking (directly or indirectly) to anyone he knew from before. Interview him before the 60 days and then after. Ask the SAME questions.
Excellent idea, BUT I have a feeling that for some people, the strength of their beliefs/prejudice is stronger than showing how competent of an individual you are.
What I mean is that I can totally see many people sayings something like this after 60 days:
“I admit, I failed. So I have to be honest with myself and say that I obviously wasn’t as determined or hard working as I should have been. I admit my mistake”.
Meaning, they would still insist that being hard working IS enough – it’s not about race! – it’s just that they obviously should have worked harder.
I’ve seen things like this happening. Not in this particular example but many times people stick to their prejudice too hard because questioning those would break their world view, so to speak. This is why admitting your own, individual failure is in a way easier, because yes, it means calling yourself incompetent perhaps but your world view stays intact! Especially for those who run with the whole “it all depends on you” idea. They can lie to themselves that yeah, they will learn from the experience to be more hard working and they will better themselves. The prejudice is not changed.
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@ Mira
Sadly you are probably right. Self-delusion runs deep.
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