I do not write this blog for white people. A common mistake some White Americans make is to assume that I am trying to persuade them, to bring them over to the anti-racist cause or something. Having assumed this, they fault me for the terrible way I go about it.
I did write some posts like that back in 2008, but soon found that their racism is a wall my words I cannot break through. Most turned out to be far more profoundly racist than I suspected.
To see where I am coming from, you should understand:
- How I look at writing
- How I look at White American racism.
How I look at writing: The duty of the writer is to write the truth – as much as that is humanly possible. Writing should be a glass window onto that truth. This is the thinking behind classic prose style.
It is how the writers I most look up to write. But according to Aristotle it falls flat as rhetoric, as a way to persuade people. For that you need three things:
- Gain the reader’s trust (ethos)
- Appeal to the head (logos)
- Appeal to the heart (pathos)
Hitler said you just need the last. In any case, my style of writing in regard to whites lacks the first and the last. So it will not persuade most of them.
How I look at White American racism: Most whites in America have not one but five walls of racism to break through:
- The wall of lies
- The wall of self-interest
- The wall of the white self
- The wall of white society
- The wall of shame and guilt
People of colour have only the first wall and so on this blog that is all I care about: the lies, lies it has taken me years to even see as lies, much less unlearn.
As to the others – persuading whites to give up the benefits of racism, to give up a false pride in their race, to become outcasts from white society, to face their shame and guilt at benefiting from a racist society – all that is way, way, way beyond my powers.
I write about white people for my own understanding. That is not the same thing as writing to persuade them.
White people are less than a fourth of mankind, yet they still tend to see themselves as the centre of the universe, as the height of human history. At least in America they tend to make everything about them. They tend to make their hurt feelings more important than the truth.
For some reason they expect me to write to their point of view with concern for their tender feelings. As if there are not enough people doing that already. As if I do not have a self-interest and concerns of my own. As if I should do anything other than to write as honestly as I can.
See also:
For some reason they expect me to write to their point of view
Yes, this is interesting, indeed. It does seem many (most?) whites expect everything to be written for their POV, even if a person in question isn’t white. On the other hand, who can blame them: most of the things ARE written, or adjusted to their POV. They are generally unaccustomed to see stuff not written from their POV. (Though it doesn’t happen to whites only; same can be observed with men, heterosexuals, westerners (USians), etc.
And about this blog… I guess it does seem like you’re writing for whites, sometimes. Why? Because whites (including me, I guess) don’t get that you’d have to write these things for yourself or your understanding of racism. At least that was what I found confusing at the beginning; I thought blacks know a lot about racism; I thought they didn’t need a blog to tell themselves what racism is. I could buy an angry rant blog, but not the fact you have to explain these things to yourself, or other blacks (non-whites).
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I do not learn much reading your blog, all these things… I already know and agree with.
But it does help me keeping all this in mind.
Just because I don’t live them myself… yes… I’m white.
I do discuss about it with my husband.
But then, question : how would you consider me ?
A white women that loves black males ?
or
A women in love with a man ?
Would you accept the idea that you also write for me a little ?
I’ve kept some of your links for later… to explain things to my daughters…
But will I be able to show them something else than a black vs white world ???
They are first WOMEN and that will be their main pain.
Damn… hurts a bit…
and excuse my English, perfectible… I’m just french… 😉
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it is not true that whites make up less then a fourth of the worlds population. the majority of europe is white the majority of russia is white. the majority of america is white.
on another note. there is just as many blacks who are racist as whites. infact in my experience there are more blacks who are racist then whites.
in my experiance i have found that most blacks i have met are racist. i know plenty of people who have said the same thing. in the areas i have lived a high percentage of blacks were racist. not just to whites but to asians. muslims you name the race.
aswell as the simple fact that the majority of blacks have a im better complex ie. im better at sports im tougher i could kick your ass mentality.
what the problem is that blacks keep the race card alive instead of letting go of the past
they get pissed at the N word yet they keep the word alive by continuiing to use it such as whats up my N%%%A if you dont want the word to have power then let it die out.
then blacks will go and say honkey this and honkey that or cracker
in closing facts are facts and numbers dont lie studies have shown that the amount of racism in the white community is very low. ie the majority of racist whites are down in the south and dont repressent a high number of whites compared to the entire white community
yet the number of black racists repressents a high number of the black community
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Hey! Where did your comment go, Abagond?
More about Aristotle and means of persuasion:
Ethos is about the character appeal and credibility. If people trust you, as a person, if they see you as an authority, it’s more likely they will trust what you say. That’s why people often trust authorities even if they talk garbage.
You don’t have a strong ethos here, Abagond, at least not when it comes to white people. The fact you are a black man somehow erases all your credibility. Whatever you say, you won’t be trusted because you lack credibility (in their opinion).
On the other hand, your credibility among black commenters might be high (it sure depends on what you say, but I guess to some, the fact you’re black gives your word a certain credibility, no matter what you say: a white person saying the same thing won’t be trusted as much).
Similarly, a white person saying the same thing will have a better credibility among whites – that’s why Tim Wise is popular with whites, while so many black people aren’t.
Pathos is emotional appeal. You try your best not to include pathos in your writing, and you are often doing a good job – but only when it comes to posts regarding race. When it comes to another subject you often write about (women), you use pathos all the way. You might try to write those posts with logos in mind, but, you fail, imo.
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Randell, you’ve missed the point entirely. Entirely.
Mira, as a black person I can tell you that many, many black people do not understand how racism pervades every aspect of their lives be it from TV shows, to editorializing, to institutionalized structures. Nonwhites understand that they are different, that racism exists, but many are so confused because they do not understand why these things go on or even how. A blog like this is useful because it gives us the tools to do exactly as abagond says, to identify and unlearn the racism we are socialized with from the moment we are sentient beings. It is so empowering to read his words.
I am 22 years old, albeit young, but everyday I have conversations with peers about why something is racist or white-centered. It is *everywhere* and since particular friends are so entranced with pop culture, I can explain to them why Lady Gaga is now more famous and ubiquitous than industry veteran Beyonce – in part, because of racism. Or Charlie Sheen and Chris Brown’s violence against women – most people are unaware that Charlie Sheen has been arrested for domestic violence on multiple occasions. He is now literally glorified and celebrated as “sticking it to the man”. Chris Brown will forever remain a dangerous monster in the collective consciousness. I am BY NO MEANS condoning his behavior – I am making a commentary on the differences in their images as projected by the media.
Many, many minorities never learn any of the vital information about racism that would allow us to regain our righteous minds. Thus, we COLLUDE to our own oppression. In example, when we allow white people to use the ‘n’ word in our presence and deny that racism can still affect our life outcomes. When I read interviews with black celebrities who declare that you can do anything you want if you work hard enough, that racism is no longer a roadblock, it is frustrating because it is simply fallacy. Perhaps Jay-Z would benefit from reading a blog like this after thinking that rap music has lessened racism in white youth.
Those of us lucky enough to have studied race in higher education (I did) or have learned through other means need this blog just as much because dealing with racism is exhausting. This blog gives me hope.
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Essence,
Mira, as a black person I can tell you that many, many black people do not understand how racism pervades every aspect of their lives be it from TV shows, to editorializing, to institutionalized structures.
Thank you for this comment. Indeed, I thought oppressed people knew everything about it, but I guess being socialized in a racist culture is highly problematic (on many levels, including the one that can make you understand what’s going on). So yes, that was my first mistake: I assumed black people didn’t need any explanation, and it’s why I took Abagond’s posts as either a way to educated whites or, more probably, to rant about the stuff he’s concerned about or the stuff that make him angry.
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I don’t know if most whites are racist. Maybe in the US; I’m from the UK, and people here are much less racially conscious. There is definitely racism, but in the UK I’d say that class trumps race every time- people are hyper aware of it, and it tinges all social interactions. Also, people here are just as likely to discriminate against and have prejudices about other whites from a different country (Poland or Germany say) as they are about black people. And even with blacks people often make distinctions between different countries – Nigeria vs Somalia vs Jamaica for example. (One of my black friends, who is of Kenyan descent, is remarkably racist towards Somalians btw.) So I’d say that while there is white vs non-white racism, it is more common to see British vs non-British racism (or even English vs Scottish).
Racism in the US is a different beast to elsewhere, and it’s worth bearing that in mind.
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Dom,
I do think most people are racist (as cruel that might sound), but I do agree different cultures have different racial consciousness (this includes non-whites, too). Abagond might criticize white Americans for pretending that a race doesn’t exist, but from what I can tell, Americans are much more racially conscious than Europeans.
Another thing. In Europe, race is not (always) the most powerful social force, as it seems to be in the US. You mention class: now, I don’t know about it, it might be in the UK. But in Europe as a whole, it’s ethnicity. Ethnicity tends to triumph over race and is a stronger power.
It triumphs even if it seems that racial relations are at play. For example, many Europeans hate Turks and Arabs. Americans might think it’s because they are not white. But no, they are hated for being Turks or Arabs, and not French, German, etc. Racial hatred towards black Europeans is, of course, racial hatred and has a strong racial component, but, the basis for it is not the fact these people aren’t white, but the fact they are not seen as “real” French, Germans, etc.
In Eastern Europe, it’s the reason Roma people (Gypsies) are discriminated against: the point their skin is darker is not the main point, the main point is the fact they’re not Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian. Also, as observed in Europe, various white ethnic groups have a strong hate towards each other, and do not see each other as belonging to the same group, even if they do recognize each others as whites (for example, Serbs and Croats).
That’s why I believe it’s not good to blindly translate American racial theories, problems and issues to other parts of the world. These things, like all the others, are culturally specific, and one culture and its ways should not dominate the discourse.
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Well said, well written.
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Well said, abagond!
US racism is a bit different of what goes on in some other countries, like in Europe. In Europe it is much more cultural racism. You can be black and be accepted if you have the same cultural values and codes as the rest. That is why american blacks are very often welcomed in Europe but africans not so. US blacks have at least some common cultural aspects.
From what I observed years ago, in US it is much more IN the culture. Racism is part of american culture, the way people adress each other, the way they look at each other etc. So even when attempt is made to get rid of it, it does not go away just like that. It takes time because the whole culture has to change.
USA was based on race categorising. All ethnic groups were under it. In 1850’s even the irish were seen nothing but monkeys (just check out some cartoons from the papers around that time). The white elite that ruled the land was the source of this. They influenced the whole system from churches to schools to police to work places. In place of the class system which dominated the societies in Europe, in US the system was mainly based on race which became also the class.
From the earliest settlers to the 1960’s upheaval racism was not that bad thing in many parts of the country. And the blacks were not the only ones being targeted. Even after WW2 there was very open and unashamed antisemitic culture alive despite the recent holocaust. Jews could not get in to some hotels at all.
The influx of latinos from 1950’s on brought another group under the system. The racial system of USA was and is so ingrained that it divided even the latinos apart. White looking mexicans were ok, but mixed mestitzos not. White looking puerto ricans had not that many problems, but any one with a bit of a african features was done.
It is essential ti understand all this. Abagonds blog is about this systematical racism that still excists in USA. It is about the racism which is there.
For me this blog is a very good way to keep my own thinking going on. For an older guy like myself this is a good tool to force myself to look at my own toughts and my own country, the way I see this world.
Keep up the excellent work!
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@ Mira :
I don’t fully agree on what you said about Europe.
Here, people don’t HATE turks and arabs for what they are, and when they do, it’s a minor fringe of the population, often related to political extrems.
They don’t like stangers for the poverty they “bring”.
Blacks, arabs are identified as poor populations, this is the main idea of european racism.
Before african migrants, it’s polish and italian migrants that were discriminated. They were getthos all around Paris.
These population are now invisible “thanks” to their skin color and they now discriminate the brand new poor populations coming from Maghreb, Black Africa, Eastern Europe…
Racism is first about money and social class.
Since 9/11, among others, arabs have been much more discriminated but because of their religion, still not because of their skin or origins.
Hope what I wrote makes sense…
Thanks for this debate. Really interesting.
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Thank you for writing this because it’s a perspective that I needed to hear after being attacked for an article I wrote on my own site about nerds being sexist and racist. I need to just write the truth and keep it moving, that made my morning. Thanks again.
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Nerds tend to be sexist… But I am not sure if they are any more racist than a general population. Interesting observation, though.
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Mira: interesting, I agree with your point about ethnicity in Europe more generally.
In the UK, however, there is less of a long history of ethnic strife because the British isles have not been invaded since 1066,* so there is a lot less bad blood between neighbours, though like I said there are still ancestral prejudices.
If you haven’t lived here you cannot begin to imagine how huge social class is, and even if you have it is difficult to fully understand the codes as foreigners are generally held as somewhat outside of the caste system. You can normally tell someone’s social background within seconds of meeting them due to accents – George Bernard Shaw famously wrote that “it is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him”.
Even those who have learnt a new accent still get caught out by little things – different classes often use different words for the same thing (sofa, sorry and napkin are all upper-middle class words, for example, where as working class people or lower middle class people might say settee, pardon and serviette). It’s really horrible actually – when famous people or politicians are profiled, for example, the type of high school they went to is seen as enormously important, and the Prime Minister is regularly referred to as an Old Etonian for the high school he went to.
Class – cultural as much as economic – is the fault line of British society. This may change as immigration brings in a non-white population greater than 10% however.
*Scots, Irish and Welsh people would probably disagree with this though.
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*Scots, Irish and Welsh people would probably disagree with this though.
I was about to say that!
Of course, you are familiar with these issues much better than I am. But I assumed ethnic conflicts (between the English, Scots, Irish and Welsh) are important forces just like in the rest of Europe. However, like I said, I am unfamiliar with the situation (and, indeed, class might be much stronger driving force in the UK).
On the other hand, I must say British class system IS (in)famous and I do know about it. Particularly about the fact it’s very difficult, if not impossible, to transcend the class, or move to the upper class. It’s something I haven’t observed in my part of Europe (Eastern Europe/Balkans), but I believe class is not much of a driving force in rest of the Continental Europe, either. It seems to be a British thing (not that others don’t experience it, but I wouldn’t say it’s as important as it seems to be in the UK).
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what a disappointing post. maybe you’re not seeking credibility Abagond, but you have just lost it with a randomly anti-white post. you speak from your own point of view – which is that of a black american. yes a blk american who has seen the injustices of explicit and implicit racism at the hands of the wht americans. but you should steer away from sounding venomous towards a whole group of people, especially if you claim to appeal to the head in your writings. as a black person, my head is sounding alarm bells when i read this post.
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abagail
Hmmm… I guess this post can come of as offensive or rude, but I never took it to mean “white people are forbidden to read my posts”, or “no whites allowed!” In a way, you could say he, as a black American, is unable to write FOR white people even if he tried. So I didn’t see this post as offensive in that regard.
On a more personal level (his personal feelings towards whites), yes, he might sound angry and what not, but his personal feelings are hardly important in these matters, unless they blind him from making a logical judgment. Indeed, that sometimes does happen, but I am not sure if this post is a good example of that.
If we’re at it, I think things Abagond DOESN’T WRITE ABOUT tell more about his personal feelings and bias than the stuff he choose to write about.
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abagail,
I’m white and I didn’t find it offensive. I think there is a tendency for white people to think of white as the norm and then decry special privileges when they are not put centre stage. Sometimes you need to say, hey it’s not all about you. It took me a while to realise this. I also think Abagond is a pretty reasonable, well-balanced guy – I don’t feel like he’s pushing some collective white guilt agenda, which is for the most part a made-up thing but does exist on certain blogs.
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well of course he can’t say that wht people are forbidden to read his posts – that’s ludicrous.
well i’m not sure why he got the impression that he needs to write for wht people or a wht point of view but this post came across as off to me. i obviouly don’t know the whole story here as i’m fairly new to the blog.
i just hope abagond keeps a clear head and doesn’t let emotion cloud his writing.
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I think some whites argued that the way he wrote some of his posts was “wrong” and that he can’t discuss issues that way if he want whites to understand his POV.
well of course he can’t say that wht people are forbidden to read his posts – that’s ludicrous
Well, he can’t forbid anybody from visiting his blog, but he can say whites are not allowed and he can delete all messages sent by people who identify themselves as whites. I’ve seen things like that happening (you can declare that X are not welcomed on your blog, if you want).
It’s not that I disagree with you, but I’ve seen blog owners actively discouraging certain groups of people to participate. This was never such a blog.
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@ abigail
I’m a white male and I don’t find this post anti-white. Whites shouldn’t assume that anti-racism blogs are written for our benefit with the intent of persuading us to be less racist. They may have that effect in some cases but it would quite frankly be ridiculous for Abagond to create a blog with that focus. To do so would be a useless and frustrating exercise to say the least.
I think if your going to blog about racism you of course need to be honest about it. Otherwise what’s the point? That is obviously going to alienate white people but that can’t be helped. Abagond isn’t trying to sell anti-racism to WP here and that’s fine with me. He shouldn’t have to pander.
I imagine that Abagond appreciates any readers/commenters who are honest truth seekers regardless of race. At least that’s how it comes off to me.
Although I will say that it’s possible that Abagond may be overexposing himself to the lowest common denominator of WP here, which may result in an overall unfriendly view of us.
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mira – thanks for the background
Ok maybe my alarm bells rang because I hate generalisations against any group and the post was written in that way. But you have all jumped to his defence so fair enough.
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mira – oh and btw i’m british. it’s pretty much impossible to jump to upper class. that is aristocracy is really only passed down from generation from birth right.
however to move to what most would define as middle class is fairly easy. study, work hard in a professional-style job and marry someone who has done the same. get a nice house somewhere in the suburbs or countryside, send your kids to a good school and viola, you are middle class.
class-ism is prevalent here but undertones of racism are as well – it’s no utopia. but i never use race as an excuse for not excelling.
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“Ok maybe my alarm bells rang because I hate generalisations against any group…”
Abagond tends to write without qualifiers. For example:
“White people like Birkenstocks”
And then, inevitably a White poster will come along and say, “I’m White and I have never liked Birkenstocks! They remind me of Peppermint Patty from Peanuts!”
Then Abagond will reply and say, “I didn’t say that ALL White people like Birkenstocks.”
I personally think it’s just easier to qualify the statement.
“Many White people seem to like Birkenstocks”
But unto each his own writing style, I always say. 🙂
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abagail,
Well, there are many white commenters who, I suspect, strongly disagree with Abagond’s words… They’re currently offline, though. I guess it will become more… interesting if they choose to join us. 🙂
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This blog is just DEPRESSING, Period.
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Funny…I didn’t see anything anti-white in Abagond’s words. Oh, well.
Hey, Julay…I thought your post was interesting. You’re French, right? Do you live in the U.S.?
I ask because you said you’re white and your husband is black. Do you really believe that your daughters’ gender will matter more than their race? I’m wondering about this from an American point of view. I’m not sure how it is in Europe, if that’s where you live.
But I know that as a woman of mixed race, both my gender AND my race definitely matter in the United States.
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Actually Abagond used more qualifiers in this post than usual I think. Which I very much appreciate BTW.
“A common mistake some White Americans make ”
“Mos turned out to be far more profoundly racist”
“Most whites in America have not one but five walls of racism”
“they still tend to see themselves as the center of the universe”
I think talking about tendencies is fair especially when it pertains to WP because realistically it isn’t damaging to us. It doesn’t hurt us or hold us back in society. As the dominant group we should be able to accept criticism because what we do affects other groups in a big way.
If one is privileged with immunity from the effects of stereotypes, one should not behave as if they are not immune just to avoid criticism from those who are actually not immune.
Besides if it wasn’t true that most of us behave in the ways that Abagond describes than racism would be much less of a reality wouldn’t it?
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*bows to the master*
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abigail said:
“well i’m not sure why he got the impression that he needs to write for wht people or a wht point of view but this post came across as off to me. i obviouly don’t know the whole story here as i’m fairly new to the blog.”
Since you are fairly new to the blog, don’t you think it would be a good idea to READ some of Abagond’s past posts before passing judgement on him or his blog, one way or the other?
I tend to chuckle when a person admits that they’re new to the blog, but in the same sentence they admonish Abagond for having an “agenda”…
Fascinating, no? 😎
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For Mira:
http://halloftheblackdragon.com/reel/1105/is-nerd-culture-the-embodiment-of-racist-and-sexist-attitudes.html
My point in the article is not to say “nerds are more racist than gen pop” per se, but more like “nerds aren’t all as nice and innocent as people would like to believe”. There is an agenda on many fronts in our subculture which is largely based on fear and opposition to change versus malicious intent, but nobody really points it out so I wrote on it.
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I’ve noticed that people in general don’t like or want to see the negative in one’s community. In my experience, I have meet white people like the ones that Abagond talks about, but tend to relate to them in terms of culture. I receive more racism from blacks than others. I do believe somewhat of his views, but can’t fully. All groups have privileges and disadvantages.
“A common mistake some White Americans make ”
“Mos turned out to be far more profoundly racist”
“Most whites in America have not one but five walls of racism”
“they still tend to see themselves as the center of the universe”
Both BP and WP tend do this. I think it’s an American thing.
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Greg Dragon,
Thank you for the link. It sure seems interesting.
There is an agenda on many fronts in our subculture
Which subculture?
Usagi,
I think it’s an American thing.
I am not sure if those are “American things”, but there ARE some things that Americans (US citizens) share, no matter on their race. I’ve received some strong criticism (from non-whites) for pointing this out, but it’s true. The fact you belong to an oppressed group doesn’t mean you can’t belong to a group of oppressors, only based on a different criteria. A basic example of this are white women who are oppressed for being women, but they can still display strong racism.
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That’s a really good point, Usagi. I have also been discriminated against by blacks, both Black Americans and those within my culture (West Indian). It is mostly based on colorism.
jas0nburns…I like what you said, too. Although I don’t like generalizations of any kind, I do think that there is truth in what Abagond says. Stereotypes/perceptions of WP are not generally damaging to the entire group. But stereotypes/perceptions of people of color are often extremely damaging, not only in the collective sense, but sometimes on an individual level.
Some WP are defensive, either because they feel guilty or because they truly don’t see that they have privilege from being white. They have never really had to consider what it is like to be a person of color. It’s like a wealthy person who has never experienced poverty and never thought about what it would be like to be poor. Others simply don’t care. They’re content with the way things are. They know they’re privileged and they want it to stay that way.
And some WP are, like my husband, well-meaning people who want to understand more and have better relationships with people of color…but they come up short in many ways. It’s not that they are bad people. They simply don’t understand anything that has not directly affected them or been part of the way they experience life.
This is just what I’ve observed from some white people over the years. Does it mean they are all like this? No. But there are definitely many people with this mentality, both conscious and unconscious.
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Wow. I bow to you Abagond. Hopefully I can write like that someday.
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Mira,
The fact you belong to an oppressed group doesn’t mean you can’t belong to a group of oppressors, only based on a different criteria.
Funny you mention this. In my cross-cultural racism class we attempted to find a people in the history of the world that hadn’t oppressed ANYONE. Guess who it was that we found? Basques!
Reading through their history, you see they’re a people who’ve suffered quite a lot (almost as much as Jews) and yet are documented of having never oppressed, or conquered anyone in their entire history as a distinct group of people. (But I’m sure individual Basque people have done so.)
Anyhoo,
Regarding this post, I feel Abagond is well within his rights to run his blog however he wants. I take issue with the seemingly free pass he gives to misogyny, Catholicism (particularly how the Church has helped racism and racists), and that he lets obvious trolls, flamers, or other degenerates comment here.
But then again, it does make for a… lively discussion.
That said, there are a myriad of public spaces which are de facto White, or service only a White community (VDARE, American Renaissance, Tea Party, Forbes 500 List, etc). That his blog is such an affront to certain racists speaks VOLUMES about the privilege they posses, where even a single small instance of contrary opinions are a threat to them. And causes them to erupt like a hilarious volcano, haha.
So while I don’t always agree with how this blog is run, I have no objection to this blog being at the sole discretion of Abagond. If the haters don’t like it, they don’t have to comment, or even pay attention. The fact that they do says more about them than about Abagond.
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Usagi, I take your point. And this goes to Mira’s point about oppressors coming in different shades and genders.
I have rarely seen ANYONE take criticism graciously. For example, I haven’t seen many black men take it well when black women point out the sexism within their community.
So I think a lot of the complaints you hear from whites on this blog come from a feeling that we are being held to a higher standard (irony?) That WP should somehow manage to be the only ones who don’t get defensive when criticized because if we do we are those “bad” WP.
But that’s not really true, it’s just that we happen to be discussing racism here. So the behavior of WP is going to be discussed. If it were mostly about sexism, the behavior or men of all races would be discussed. Or, if it were about ableism…etc.
People get all bent out of shape for no reason imo. Like this blog is going to cause a race war or something.
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Zek,
Yes, but a male Basque can still be sexist and oppress women, and I bet there are homophobic Basques… See what I mean? (What I was talking about was hardly restricted to race or ethnicity).
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Also, (and I don’t know if this is intentional or not, I suppose not if the title of this post is true) The lack of qualifiers serves a purpose. It shows whites what it feels like to be seen as a monolith, if only for a moment and in an impersonal setting. From the general reactions of WP here one gets the impression that even that limited exposure is very uncomfortable.
How the average WP could walk away from that experience and still not grasp the truth behind Abagond’s posts is beyond me.
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@Mira: The Nerd Sub-Culture.
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My real issuse with his articles is that it mainly only talk about the black experience from only ONE way. I think alot of bp that are consider uncle tom may haven’t had the same level of racism to them. I can’t relate to most of black american experience and get along more with non-blacks. Racist white people couldn’t stand me because I freaked them out. Everything they thought about blacks is made void because we’ll have so much in common( I don’t even use wash cloth. I always thought it was weird).I’m a living proof that their facts are false. For example, http://www.verysmartbrothas.com/blackness-101-10-things-all-black-people-should-at-least-be-aware-of/
The only thing i can relate is Coming to America. Everything else I wouldn’t touch woth a 12 foot pole.
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im sorry but it is a complete lie that racism still exists at the level it did 60 years ago. yes there are stil racists out there but not on the level this artical portrays blacks have just as much chances in life as any other race.
anyone who says otherwise doesnt know what they are talking about
and it is statistically proven that blacks are now more racist then whites. the majority of whites are not racist but the majority of blacks are.
atleast in my experience. i cant go anywhere that has blacks and not get dirty looks.
i can walk in a store and simply say exuse me sir. and get the nastiest look.
the majority of blacks i have talked to say that they rarely get dirty looks from whites and other races
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“Why are you so concerned with your blackness? What does it even mean to keep it real if you didn’t grow up in the ‘hood or in a gang? Is that even a part of being black?
Because of that whole annoying slavery thing, we (African-Americans) are an extremely unique and extremely lonely people. The uniqueness is something you’ve probably read/hear about myriad times, but the loneliness isn’t something most whites are privy to.
To expound, while many of us feel a kinship with the idea of Africa, the fact that the majority of us can’t pinpoint exactly what part of that big ass continent we’re from makes that kinship somewhat superficial. Put it this way: Most of us don’t have the luxury of going to, say, Denmark and finding the village our great-great grandfather came from.
Anyway, when you combine this with our, um, “complicated” relationship with America, you start to understand how isolated we (generally) feel and the “circle the wagons” collective mentality cultivated by this isolation. We’re staunchly protective of anything African-American, our images, our culture, our creations, ourselves, because (for many of us) that’s all we have, and if we’re suspected to have relinquished or renounced that in anyway, it can make you feel like Judas.”
This is why I can’t go along with some BAs. I hate this mentality. Maybe if I felt a connection to them. I don’t/can’t see myself in every other black person. Due to my background, I have to go be culture and other things.
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Usagi you sound like someone who hasn’t had a “black wake-up”call, come down here to the dirty South and it may wake you up a tad from the generalizations that you seem to be assuming is fact. The sad reality is that until you have faced real racist white people in there real racist element you start to think that those of us who claim to have seen it are making it up.
The only true utopia of post-racial thought is the coffee that popular media, the internet and more cosmopolitan corners of the USA is serving up. Sure everyone’s drinking it but it does not mean that it’s a reality, a lot of these angry replies I see are reactionary and not from people who are willing to consider that their experience with racism does not account for society as a whole here in America.
Trust me when and if you receive that wake-up call, it will be painfully regretful.
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@ Cinnamondiva : Yes I’m french, living close to Paris.
I grew up in suburds, where people of all origins live together.
I think I know quite well about exclusion, poverty,racism…
There are a lot of stereotypes regarding mixed children, but main are : they will have social problems (not knowing where they really come from) // it’s an advantage to have two different cultures.
But usually people consider them quite positively, so I think that their identity problems often come from their family, friends, direct environment… not really from the society itself.
Whatever is your skin tone here in France… being a woman remains a problem.
I’m a white woman, with diploma, but I still face the same problems at work, in the street, with family and friends…
I mean condescension, sexually agressive behaviours, discriminations…
I know they will be strong enough to bear daily racism led by ignorance. Because my daughters will KNOW.
I will try not to make no ethnocentrism.
I’ve learnt how to braid specially to deal with what they are, not what I was used to (my own straight hair).
But i still have no solution of being a woman.
(I should read the dictionnary… to get more english vocabulary… I really mean to get understood and I hope my point is clear)
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The Nerd Sub-Culture.
I thought so… I just wanted to make sure.
I generally agree with the article, except the “Avatar” part. That one was racist in a very obvious, old fashioned way.
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“I’m sorry but it is a complete lie that racism still exists at the level it did 60 years ago.”
I don’t think that most of us are disputing this.
“yes there are stil racists out there but not on the level this artical portrays blacks have just as much chances in life as any other race.”
We are disputing that part though. What you are saying is that you know what Black people experience in the world even more than Black people who are telling you their experiences.
Please take the 5 minutes to watch this (oft posted video)
That doesn’t mean that things aren’t any better… it just says that there are still problems in perception. Don’t try to discount that.
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“you sound like someone who hasn’t had a “black wake-up”call, come down here to the dirty South and it may wake you up a tad from the generalizations that you seem to be assuming is fact. The sad reality is that until you have faced real racist white people in there real racist element you start to think that those of us who claim to have seen it are making it up.”
How do you know I haven’t ? I grew in Chicago which one of the most racist cities midwest and I know my history. I like said, I recieve far more hurtful comments from BAs than WP. But I don’t believe that everything blacks do is their entire fault. I’m aware of the bias of Hollywood and the workplace. But Blacks fair to realize is that there are other forms of bias and in some cases being black may not be THAT bad. I hate the black love decisions because they act like everyonee else are in loving supporting relationships, but we’re the only one screwed up. I never said that none of that stuff happens. BTW, thanks, but no thanks to coming to the South. i have no reason to go, except Mardi Gras. Nothing in The South draws me there as most of my kin are up North, except for Arkankas and a have few kin in Georgia.
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King
im sorry but facts are facts the facts are that blacks have more jobs then whites there are more jobless whites in american then there are jobless blacks. and this is a fact.
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” there are more jobless whites in american then there are jobless blacks.”
Yes. That is because there are far more Whites in America than Blacks. Blacks are about 12% of the U.S. population.
im sorry but facts are facts the facts are that blacks have more jobs then whites
That’s impossible. As I said, Blacks are only 12% of the population, Whites are almost 70% of the U.S. population.
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Abagond,
Excellent post as usual.
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“im sorry but facts are facts the facts are that blacks have more jobs then whites there are more jobless whites in american then there are jobless blacks. and this is a fact.”
You need to gtfo with that. All you’re doing is proving Abagond right you know.
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All you’re doing is proving Abagond right you know.
*sigh*
So…we’re still entertaining folks like that here? I mean…at some point you veterans (Mira, King, jas0n, sam (yay!), etc.) have to be tired of talking in circles, right?
The – and I use this term loosely – “discussion” on this posts resembles those of his other posts. And I’m seeing the word “debate” again.
*shakes head*
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@ Ankhesen:
I sigh and shake my head at that ish as well…I’ve never (intentionally) been a feeder of the trolls, so I wonder why others seem to go out of their way to seek them out and respond to them when they post their expected, inane drivel. I understand wanting to debate in an open, intelligent, thoughtful way – but it’s impossible to do that with trolls! 😉
@ Abagond:
Excellent post. When I saw the title, I started to laugh because it almost seemed odd that you would have to write a topic about it, and then I laughed even louder because you DID have to! The notion that a blog would be written solely for my benefit never even crossed my mind…how wonderful to be so privileged as to expect that sort of thing, no? 😎
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@ Ankhesen
I think of it as exercise 😉 but yeah.
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More like sparring…
Trolls are like a box full of chocolates, you never know what you’re gonna get. Every so often you get a surprising point of view—something new to sharpen your teeth on.
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To be honest, I have less and less patience for that sort of people and their comments.
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But yeah… no that often.
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*applause* Sometimes you just need to remind people.
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randell:
Yes, it is. Whites are estimated at ~1.4 billion woldwide, which amounts to ~20.25% i.e one-fifth of the world’s population: a clear minority.
It is true that whites are still a majority in some places, including America. However, if current fertility and immigration trends continue, white people will become a minority in America by the mid-century or even earlier. This is a matter of great concern, since the world’s example shows that, wherever whites are or become a powerless minority, they are subjected to discrimination, persecution, and genocide-by-a-thousand-cuts.
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This is a matter of great concern, since the world’s example shows that, wherever whites are or become a powerless minority, they are subjected to discrimination, persecution, and genocide-by-a-thousand-cuts.
Are you being serious, or sarcastic?
Because the opposite has been true, historically.
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abagond:
The reason you will never reach American whites is that you frame the issue in the “us-vs.-them” or “zero-sum” terms. Put like that, there’s nothing whites can do to overcome their “racism” least of collectively slitting their own throats. And while American whites have been cowed to a surprising degree into acting against their own interests, it is highly doubtful that anyone other than most dedicated ethnomasochists in the uncle Tim (Tim Wise) mould would oblige.
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I am as serious as erectile dysfunction, zek. If what’s happening in Zimbabwe, in South Africa, in the Muslim-full European cities hasn’t opened your eyes, I doubt if anything will.
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Great post and comments all around!
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I like that you mentioned Aristotle.
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@nonservium
wherever whites are or become a powerless minority
Why do you think a numerical minority equals a powerless minority? There is NO proof whatsoever that white Americans are losing any economic or social power. None at all
*this is the exact paranoia I was talking about the other day.
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@Nonservium
You mention 3 places. Umm… what about all of the other countries where whites are a minority/majority-minority? I’m going to throw out the powerless part bc that doesn’t apply to the US for obvious reasons. Anyways how are whites doing in…
Cuba
Brazil
Bolivia
Dominican Republic
Mexico
Venezuela
The Bahamas
Cayman Islands
Peru
Colombia
Namibia
Panama
You know what? Pretty much every country in the Western Hemisphere that is not the US, Argentina, or Uruguay? Plz tell me how POC have penetrated their Ivory towers. School me bc I have been under the impression that whites were at the top of the social/economic totem pole in every single last one.
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Abagond, this post was one of the most enlightening for me. You are awesome. 🙂
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Dear paranoid whites,
Non-Hispanic whites are projected to become a minority by 2050(47% of pop.)? Will the US turn into a 3rd world country as inferior races start appear? Is the day that America’s Ivory tower political/economic wealth mixed w/ racial ignorance crumbles soon to be near? Well nv fear! The man that will make sense of the numbers is here!
1)Asians are expected to grow to 9% of the population. No need to worry though. We like them. They have asteroid sized brains and don’t bring crime and poverty like the rest of the colored filth. No need to worry about them.
2)Blacks are expected to stagnate-Thank God! No need to explain that one!
3)Now the Hispanics are what we need to worry about, right? Wrong. They are not race. They are a group of ppl from Latin America that have a substantial amount of European ancestry. Ppl like Cameron Diaz, Alexis Bledel, and Christina Aguilera are driving down the non-Hispanic white population(all are obviously white). Puerto Ricans and Cubans are the least mixed group. Their damn near white. Mexicans are pretty much a bunch of halfies even though half of them self-identify as white on the US census(a good sign!). Not only is this group half and damn near white on avg, but according to a Pew Research study 45% of them marry non-Hispanic whites and their off-white, practically white children are also driving down the non-Hispanic white population. Basically we are going to have more of these guys walking around…
Now doesn’t he look like he canalmost pass as a 100% descendant from Spain? Why be afraid of a substantially Euro population that will probably become more white as generations pass? 🙂
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Decline of the “White Non-Hispanic” No Big Deal by Roger Hernandez
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-hernandez/decline-of-the-white-non_b_120579.html
Whites to Become Minority in the US by 2050
http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/02/12/us-usa-population-immigration-idUSN1110177520080212
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I am as serious as erectile dysfunction
Was that a Freudian slip?? Haha.
Oh, and engaging in Islamophobia is not proof. Historically, when Whites have been a minority they have become more repressive, more cladisitic, less tolerant, less peaceful, more violent, more prone to genocide, aggression, and other negative traits. South Africa springs to mind as a prominent example. America’s treatment of the Natives is another. Obviously you need a security blanket, because on someone pathologically phobic would be so afraid of others when the historical reality is that the Other should be, and is, more afraid of Whites.
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***White people are less than a fourth of mankind, yet they still tend to see themselves as the centre of the universe, as the height of human history.***
Doesn’t everyone see themselves as the centre of the Universe? Whites are the least racist people on the planet. Easily. They are altruistic & giving to members who aren’t white.
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“Whites are the least racist people on the planet. Easily. They are altruistic & giving to members who aren’t white.”
Schwartzie, you can afford to think like that because you have never bothered to take the time and look into all the things that they have first taken from people who aren’t White.
Very worth watching:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3667764379758632511#
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septura- i said fair dues as i acknowledged that i was fairly new to the blog and because others were standing up for him. and i have read some of his posts which is why i said ‘fairly’ new.
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@Schwartz
“Doesn’t everyone see themselves as the centre of the Universe? Whites are the least racist people on the planet. Easily. They are altruistic & giving to members who aren’t white.”
Yes. They give diseases (ex. smallpox), war (ex. the War on terror), dehumanizing stereotypes (ex. blackface), and general delusions (ex. White Man’s Burden).
Of course, to be serious, if you want to see how giving some whites in America (and the UK for that matter) are, look at the BNP and the Tea Party. What’s sad is that while they spend time worrying about people of color, homosexuals, liberals (or a generic monolithic Left), they keep getting robbed and sonned by their white elites who benefit from the system of Capitalism. You would think they would learn. They crow about black crime, and yet you see so many cases of serial killers, rapists, money launderers, etc. who get away with their crimes for years even if they are reported. They think that because their ancestors (most of which would have nothing to do with them despite claiming them in one big ‘white’ identity) killed and subjugated much of the planet, that means that eventually the same will happen to them.
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“what the problem is that blacks keep the race card alive instead of letting go of the past”
-Randell
Don’t whites do the same thing when celebrating the 4th of July?
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“Whites are the least racist people on the planet. Easily. They are altruistic & giving to members who aren’t white.”
-Schwartz
Schwartz, are you from this planet?
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Thank you Abagond.
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Randell you make (obviously) misinformed points and then have no evidence to back them up…
Where are those stats that say that blacks are “statistically proven” to be more racist than whites? Huh?
Poor thing, you are grasping at straws
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I thanked ‘Abagond’ because I appreciated the breakdown he provided(created) on the spiral of walls that ‘hinder’ the dominant group(whites) in fully empathizing with fringe/out groups. In all honesty, I have perceived Abagond to be a poster who was more ‘Black Like Me’, than actually black. I do’nt remember why, but I do recall reading certaing posts and thinking, “this is a white male/person”. I’m still not 100, but I appreciate the site nontheless.
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Cynic:
None of the countries on your list are democracies in any real sense. The USA, for all its deficiencies, is. This means that numerical power will inevitably translate into political one, if not immediately then over time. There will be nothing to prevent determined non-whites from voting themselves yet more privileges at whites’ expense and depriving them of whatever vestiges of socioeconomic advantage they might still have.
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Yeah, keep leaning on that crutch Abagond.
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@nonserviam
None of the countries on your list are democracies in any real sense. The USA, for all its deficiencies, is. This means that numerical power will inevitably translate into political one, if not immediately then over time.
Now I know you don’t know what your’e talking about. The US is not a democracy. We are a Democratic Republic and money trumps everything else when it comes to our political process. I seriously doubt you even know ANYTHING about those countries I listed anyways.
Question:Where is your source for the 20.25% number when it comes to the world’s white population? Did this source count South/Central American whites?
*Don’t bother posting your source if it is not credible
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This is a great post.
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Very interesting!
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~ Doesn’t everyone see themselves as the centre of the Universe? Whites are the least racist people on the planet. Easily. They are altruistic & giving to members who aren’t white.
~ what the problem is that blacks keep the race card alive instead of letting go of the past
Like these. Why on earth would anyone even grace these with responses?
And as for the whole “debating” angle, what is there to debate? This Abagond’s personal blog. His house, his rules. If he says he’s not writing this blog for white people, then there is nothing to “debate.” It is what it is – end of story.
And this right here:
how would you consider me ?
A white women that loves black males ?
or
A women in love with a man ?
Would you accept the idea that you also write for me a little ?
I’ve kept some of your links for later… to explain things to my daughters…
But will I be able to show them something else than a black vs white world ???
They are first WOMEN and that will be their main pain.
Damn… hurts a bit…
*doubles over and dies laughing*
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“how would you consider me ?
A white women that loves black males ?
or
A women in love with a man ?
Would you accept the idea that you also write for me a little ?
I’ve kept some of your links for later… to explain things to my daughters…But will I be able to show them something else than a black vs white world ??? They are first WOMEN and that will be their main pain.
Damn… hurts a bit…”
Eh???
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@ Ankhesen Mié : what is there to laugh at ? Please explain, teach me truth !!!
I don’t have the same langage level in english and in french, sorry for that. Maybe I could have explain myself better… or if you are able to speak a little french…
En France aussi nous avons ce genre de débat, confisqué par le mouvement kémite. Où systématiquement cela dérape en véritable débat, comme ici et tu ne me l’enlèveras pas. Il ne s’agit pas de simples discussions, pas dans les commentaires en tout cas. Et je ne vois pas en quoi ça pourrait être un problème après tout.
Quand on expose ses idées, on s’attend tout de même à un retour quelconque non ?
Ensuite oui, j’ai vu ce genre de discussion virer à chaque fois dans les mêmes travers. Les femmes blanches volent les hommes noirs, les noirs qui ne suivent pas leur véritable nature sont aliénés…
Mais ton pseudo Ankhesen ne m’étonne pas, je n’ai que ce genre de réponse de la part des gens qui se réclament de la Maat.
Enjoy translating.
I’m out.
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@ Blaque :
La lettre suivante est le F !
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Cynic:
My source is answers.com. My point is that, whatever the “exact” hairsplitting percentage is, whites are a minority worldwide. Increasingly vulnerable minority, too, as far as ordinary people are concerned.
And yes, I am familiar with the principles of republicanism. I am also aware that in this country, they’re just that: principles to aspire for.
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@Nonserviam
I understood your point. I don’t doubt whites a world minority(as are blacks, pacific islanders, native americans, arabs, and many other groups), I was just genuinely curious about where your numbers came from.
The only thing I don’t like is your paranoia and fear-mongering. It’s obvious that your attempting to use fear to recruit other whites to your “racial cause.” Whatever that means…
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@nonserviam
Money is power and politicians can be(and are) bought. This is one of the main reasons why the numbers of non-whites voting doesn’t matter. Plus, you are assuming that the political motives of POC are detrimental to whites.
*SA & Zim aren’t really all that democratic compared to any of the Western Hem countries I listed.
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Well, thank you for allowing white folk to eavesdrop anyway.
You have such a skillful way of distilling concepts to their essence such that they are communicated in a clear, accessible manner. Very helpful resource for those of us that are writing to educate white audiences! Thank you again!
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The Cynic:
My “cause” is very straightworward. Since I am an American citizen, I am mostly concerned with whatever happens in America. (I don’t really believe in some global white brotherhood, I am pro-white in the American context).
So: I am in favor of razing the race industry to the ground and sawing the ruins with salt, and treating all citizens as individuals with equal rights. Second, I am for complete cessation of all third-world immigration, because it is turning America into a thrid-world country (I am open to accepting white refugees from Zimbabwe and SA, though).
Simple, really.
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I disagree with saying people of color only have the wall of lies. Do they not also having their own interest, self and societies?
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@Zora
Self interest maybe but since we’re all oppressed we share a common interest if only in that regard, alone.
What societies? We were never allowed to really develop our own societies like other immigrant groups. The successful ones we did develop are entirely dependent upon the white ones. So….no wall of lies is really it for us.
Racism= prejudice plus power,this is why reverse racism only really applies to white people. Black people have very little power as a group. We’ve been purposefully kept powerless.
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@ sam
Believe it or not, some white folks are reading your last comment and feeling very comforted right now.
The hilarious part is what would happen afterward, should such operations succeed.
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While Abagond’s blog is always interesting, I wonder why he doesn’t focus on what Blacks can do to better ourselves. We’re not perfect.
While racism is an enduring (and never ending) problem, I just don’t see White racism as the reason for the many ills in the Black community.
To be quite frank, I don’t believe that Blacks like each other that much. We pull together in the face of White racism, but otherwise are very individualistic — just like Whites.
It would be great if this blog was about Black enlightenment — that could lead to the betterment of individual Blacks and the overall betterment of the “Black community” as a whole.
Otherwise, simply stating over and over again that Whites are racists becomes tiresome. I think we all know that. Say something new.
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Patricia, people blog about the things that are important to them. That’s why there are so many blogs out there that specialize.
There isn’t anything wrong with your idea, but if you really believe in it, why not start a blog of your own where you can tackle such issues yourself?
Nobody is forcing anyone to come to Abagond everyday to read it. If it gets tiresome to you, simply take a vacation from it.
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Sam is right. We might as well all nuke each other. It would actually be a blessing to have planet earth liberated of its worst enema, pardon me enemy, the one and only homo sapiens “sapiens”.
However, there’s a better alternative after all which would be not only daredevil to mention in all the mayhem, but also scientifically and utterly unnatural, as proven by world renowned scientists such as P. Rushton, Chris Brand, Steve Sailor and Jared Taylor. Unnatural especially due to its socialist, pinko-commie, anti-religious, anti-statistics nature.
Watch me! ….
Unity anyone?
Shite!! The moment I mentioned that blasphemous term, I’m looking into a gun barrel. I better retreat to my “synthetic” world that’s able to do without isotope half lives of 4.5 billion years in the air. Fancy joining?
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@ Olufemi:
As a walking contradiction, I understand exactly what you’re saying.
On one hand, I would love to be able to approach any person, at any time, anywhere, and know that if I approach them with goodwill and friendlines, it will be returned in kind. I was brought up in a religious family, and the religion they practiced had this refrain: “God is one, Man is one, and all religions are one…when everyone learns the three one-nesses, we’ll have world unity.”
My agnostic, pagan, polytheistic self never truly believed that Pollyanna-like nonsense though, even at an early age, because what I experienced in life taught me that it was bull!
On the other hand, I know the reality of human nature and it sickens me – again, because of what I experience personally. Then I think of the Tool song Aenemia and this refrain:
I’m praying for rain
I’m praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way
I wanna watch it all go down
Mom, please flush it all away
I wanna see it go riding down
I wanna watch it go riding
Won’t you flush it all away?
(‘Mom’ refers to Mother Nature, there)
Your ‘synthetic’ world sounds better than the real one! 😎
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Patricia,
Like King said, it’s best to start your own blog and write about matters that interests you instead of coming to someone else’s blog and wonder why that blogger doesn’t write about things you want to discuss. People may interpret that as derailing a blog on a certain topic.
Also, you may not see white racism as the reason for many ills in the black community, and that’s up to you. However, racism plays an enormous part in the ills that go on in the black community no matter what the socioeconomic status is. It’s not because of some “defect” in our thinking, reasoning, and emotions. It’s because we live in a racist society.
I do agree that we are individuals and not some monolith.
What makes you believe this site isn’t about black enlightenment? What suggestions would you promote to make this site more “enlightening.”
Patricia, this blog does more than state the “whites are racist” over and over like you wrote. You have to check it out in its entirety.
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@ankesen: 😀
@olufemi: 😀
Funny how these “whites are persecuted” guys forget some simple facts of history: nukes have been used only twice in war and guess who used them against another people? Yeap.
Poison gasses were used by the same folks, at least as late as in 1980’s when soviets were doing their best to wipe out afgans. Ok, that Hussein guy used them against iranians and his own folk and kurds, but that guy was the grand vizier of the nutty. And I doubt he considered himself as black.
Enriched uranium, napalm, phosphorus, air burst explosives etc. are all in our arsenal and we are using them right now in Libya, Irak and Afganistan. In case of more surgical stuff we have polonium which the russians used earlier in this decade to snuff at least one troublesome deserter in London. Biological weapons are there in store.
Also these “white men are endagered” hipsters forget who has done the most damage to the white man. Yeap, it is the Other white man. Most wars since 1900? Yeap, the same guy.
A bit off topic but explains why some guys just do not get this blog either. They just can not.
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An undeniable historically FACT as you’ve stated it Sam.
I’ve always wondered how the hotly contested and debated issue of genetically inherited intelligence and IQ fits into this.
Nuclear/Biological warfare is madness in any sane person’s eyes. But some people would have you believe that IQ & intelligence … and the ability for total annihilation of every living thing on the planet are mutually compatible???
Please!!!
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Yes sepultura13, the world as a (w)hole needs more uplifting vibes. That would be at least a good start. Sarcasm should come last but it just keeps creeping in…
Absolutely Sam. The desire to invent ever nastier weapons that can be operated from an even safer distance has always been a domain where white people supremely excel. Killing and maiming from a distance in heavy armour and stealth. Some even take pride in calling it “fighting for freedom” and knock one off watching it after having bookmarked the 25th white supremacy website. There’s this crude misconception that it takes bollox the size of oranges to go to war with sophisticated weaponry. As “Professor” Rushton would say “it’s all in the jeans”.
Einstein said “Any educated fool can make things bigger, more complex and more violent. It takes a lot of courage and a touch of genius to move in the opposite direction.”
Madness indeed, Kwamla.
On a related note, if I was a blog writer, my first post would be “I do not write this blog for foolish people.”
😉
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Blaque Ink said: “What makes you believe this site isn’t about black enlightenment? What suggestions would you promote to make this site more “enlightening.”
Patricia, this blog does more than state the “whites are racist” over and over like you wrote. You have to check it out in its entirety.”
To me black enlightenment would mean more soul searching — asking hard questions about why we as a community haven’t advanced as much as we could. Asking questions about the dearth of two-parent families. Asking questions about why so many Black teenagers drop out of high school. Asking questions about why so many Black men in particular involve themselves in the criminal justice system. Asking why so many Black communities are dangerous FOR LAW ABIDING Black people (hence, the Black middle class flight to Whiter suburbs).
I do believe that Abagond, like many other Blacks, focus on “whites are racists” because it’s easier to do that than focus on the ills that we cause ourselves.
Yes, there is white racism. But that doesn’t explain the out of wedlock boom in the Black community (the rate of marriage for Blacks was higher during the Jim Crow years) or the high rate of crime in many Black communities (non-Black poor communities aren’t as crime-racked).
The hardest thing to do is to look at yourself and acknowledge your failures and come up with solutions. It’s much easier to point to “the Man”. Especially when you know that “the Man” is not going to change his ways.
Actually, there are alot of Black blogs out there that do not focus on “whites are racist” themes and that seek to empower individual Blacks.
But since this blog is open to criticism, I couldn’t resist throwing in my 2 cents. No offense intended. And please notice that I rarely comment here anyways.
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abagond why wasn’t my previous post allowed to go through?
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but patricia kayden pretty much summed up everything i had said in my banned post. at least there are some fellow blk people who see things how there are and are not over-comfortable blaming everyone else.
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Olufemi said:
On a related note, if I was a blog writer, my first post would be “I do not write this blog for foolish people.”
Thumbs-up AND co-sign! 😎
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@ sailorscout1986
When did you send the post? If it was in the past few hours, I never got it.
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Patricia and Abagail, think about the following:
Are two-parent blacks families really dead?
Are only black people “suffering” from this?
Did blacks just decide to “screw” the notion of two-parent family values?
Are single-parent homes worse than two-parent homes? If so, how?
Are the schools where black teenagers drop out adequate, giving quality education all teens, especially black teens, deserve?
Do they treat black teens with respect as they treat white teens? Do they see black teens are humans instead of potential criminals?
Are school personel trained to deal with problems teens, especially black teens, face?
Is the school-to-prison pipeline fair and reasonable?
Do most of those black men involved in the criminal justice system belong in there?
Is the justice system fair and just?
Do prisons minimize crime?
Do loading prisons with black men and black women make streets safer?
Are many black communities truly dangerous for law abiding blacks?
Are white suburbs safer to live?
What causes the high crime rate in poor black communities?
If a cop assaults or shoots an unarmed black man because he looked “suspicious” did that black man deserve it?
If a black person, with no criminal record, applies for a job and is turned down, but a white person with a criminal record gets that job, is it the black person’s fault?
If a black person, with a criminal record but decides to turn his life around, applies for jobs but is turned down due to their acknowledgement in the application that they are a felon, but has no other choice than to break a law to survive since he is an outcast and ends up back in prison, is it entirely that person’s fault?
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Hi Abagond,
I really like your blog.
I have a question, and it would be cool if you were willing to respond.
I noticed, and well, I guess its obvious- that preference and privileges are not only allotted solely based on skin colour, but as some travelers know (actually, no need to even travel, but it becomes quite apparent this way) it is also allotted based on culture as well.
Say you are black in Spain and you are clearly an immigrant, full with the accent and immigrant garb (dashiki or what not); and say you are black from New York, got the accent, got slick city style going for you etc.
I have heard from travelers that being in the latter category, means you get treated differently, at least by most people. You are respected, you are presumed wealthy, you are presumed (relatively) intelligent, I would say this is closest thing that blacks can experience to the “white status” given to whites here in the West, their given the lofty of a “Western black” that African blacks, and so on often do not share.
What do think about this? Do you think its an accurate analogy or experience to the “white privilege” which categorizes people in a hierachy, where now its black Westerners at the top within the black community? Your throughts would be appreciated!
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Nice post Abagond. I started to read the comments but after the first few I just stopped. I have, however, recommended your site/some posts to a couple of my professors and peers.
I think they appreciate the work you do as much as I do.
Please, keep doing this work!
Best,
Jerome
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@ aPoster:
I think when Black Americans go overseas they experience American privilege. They are seen as more American than black. And being American they are presumed to have money, which compared to many parts of the world they do. In some parts of the world, though, blacks are so rare you are more a curiosity than anything else.
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@ Jerome and others who have said nice things about my blog:
Thank you!
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@ Abigail & Patricia:
Sure, racism is not the only cause of troubles for blacks. I agree that the out-of-wedlock thing has little to do with racism. But when it comes to schools and prisons and the police, it would be extremely unwise to discount racism. Blacks rarely control the schools or the police and often when they do, they lack the money needed to make them work properly, at least as compared to those in white neighbourhoods and towns. There is no happy medium that I know of.
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i’m going to be using this account from now on but i have posted under the name ‘abagail’ previously
like i said on ‘current arguments about slavery’, why don’t black people just try to stay within the rule of law? of course there will still be in justices in a racist society but you can not blame the white man for the black kid selling whatever on the street. and then complaining when they get sentenced that a white dude wouldn’t have been punished so severely. it doesn’t work like that.
and it’s not an ‘out-of-wedlock thing’ – you make it seem so minor. let’s just brush that unsavoury topic under the carpet. it’s a MAJOR problem? can we please be honest here?
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@ Julay:
I write for anyone who will read me and I am always glad when people enjoy what I write or if it helps them in some way. Why would I not? The point of the post is not to say, “White people get lost!” but to say that I am not trying to convert white souls. In most cases that is beyond my powers.
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So I think it might be interesting to know what exactly white readers get out of this blog seeing as how we aren’t really the target audience. Why do we come here? Why do we comment?
I can only speak for myself of course. The main reason I come to this blog, and other anti-racism blogs is mainly out of a desire to understand the nature of racial division in America.
I remember sitting in a popular chain restaurant in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio about 2 years ago. I looked around and noticed that there was roughly an equal number of blacks and whites in the restaurant, but none of them were sitting with each other. Every table (including mine) was seated with either all black or all white people. After that I kind of became obsessed with finding out why that is, and what I can do to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. So here I am.
Any other WP care to state their motivation for coming here?
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jas0nburns said: “Every table (including mine) was seated with either all black or all white people. After that I kind of became obsessed with finding out why that is, and what I can do to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.”
Why is that necessarily a problem? I believe that you are starting off with at least a partially fallacious statement.
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“Why is that necessarily a problem?”
Well, it’s not in itself a problem. It’s a symptom. The problem is racism, a symptom of that problem is a lack of real integration. Symptoms are signs, and as you pointed out, subjective.
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@Randy & Jas0n
I’d also point out its not natural as anyone could observe if that same bar was full of kids (5 yrs or under) you could expect to all types of configurations as the children mixed freely regardless of ethnicity or race.
So what has precipitated the observation Jas0n made when adults are involved?
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Jas0n,
So it’s racist if Abagond goes out with his black friends and if you go out with your white friends? Is it sexist for men to go out with their male friends and females to go out with their female friends?
I think you’re tragically overlooking the fact that people within a particular culture or ethnic group can choose to associate with one other simply because they want to, and not because of nefarious cultural forces.
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Bravo for this abagond, really. This post was just what I needed after the long reign of HBDers and other trolls.
As for people who need to read about the things Black people are doing wrong and all the things that we have to “fix” before we are admitted into polite society, I think you can read about that sort of thing anywhere or watch movies like “Precious” or “The Blind Side” or something.
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@ Randy
no, you don’t get it.
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@Randy
Mixed-gender groups are the most common. If they were not, it would be a natural assumption that there is some serious sexism going on.
I think you missed jas0n’s point entirely. he’s not saying its not okay to hang out with people of your own ethnic group. but if it’s the norm, then there’s some serious racism going on.
Just think, who would you sit at a restaurant with? your friends, coworkers, dates, family, relatives? family – most likely your race, so that’s all right. dates – your choice of partner, so that’s all right again. but friends, coworkers – all your race? friendship is based on interaction, so most people you interact with is of your race? and the coworkers you hang out with are all your race? i mean, how far will you go to deny the obvious racial element in this?
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think you’re tragically overlooking the fact that people within a particular culture or ethnic group can choose to associate with one other simply because they want to, and not because of nefarious cultural forces.
But when that association is a primary determinant in getting a job, a promotion, invited to a conference, getting accepted into a school, or program, or getting a loan, or getting a house, any other important things for people in America, then it comes from innocuous social interaction to structural segregation.
When a Black person does not get approved for a home loan because they’re considered a “risky investment” but a White person with the same credit does because they happen to have played golf with bank branch manager… that is what we are talking about. And it does happen, in various forms on a regular basis in this country. As we’ve shown you multiple times.
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Randy, I think that you’re looking at this in the wrong light. You seem to be responding as if Jason is making an accusation against White people for the fact that the grouping of customers in his Cleveland restaurant were not integrated. As if he is siting this as evidence in a trial to indicate a pattern of rampant prejudice.
I think that perhaps, he was simply making a casual observation about how things are, and comparing it to how they might be without the influence of the long held taint of racism.
“you’re tragically overlooking the fact that people within a particular culture or ethnic group can choose to associate with one other simply because they want to, and not because of nefarious cultural forces.”
Maybe what Jason is saying is that RACIAL culture would not be the main cultural concern for so many people, if something was not far out of whack. I mean, those who appreciated ornithology might go out to dinner together, regardless of the amount of pigment in the outer 1.3 mm or their epidermis. Or people who read new fiction, liked baseball, or play the mandolin, might actually hang out together because hey… color ain’t culture.
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“Maybe what Jason is saying is that RACIAL culture would not be the main cultural concern for so many people, if something was not far out of whack. I mean, those who appreciated ornithology might go out to dinner together, regardless of the amount of pigment in the outer 1.3 mm or their epidermis”
Yes King, that’s exactly what I was saying. Thank you.
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Incidentally, I worked for a large oil company which considered itself – in all its retail operations – enlightened. We had programs for black hiring. Procedures for filing for the tax breaks a company gets when hiring black people. Programs for black executive training. Programs for education reimbursement designed to meet federal inclusion recommendations.
And we rolled them out in Northern New England, where everyone knows there are just tens of thousands of black people waiting to be hired. I literally had the only store with a black employee, out of close to a hundred. And not because I was some sort of enlightened employer, but because a person who was already a friend and who just happened to be black needed a second job.
I doubt that any MBAs designing the programs or the children who’d inherited the company considered themselves racist. I’d even imagine that a few of them honestly believed they were working against the culturally coded divisions which have defined the American experiment in degradation for going on four hundred years.
I’m also pretty sure they’d flip the script and go full on defensive if anyone had suggested to them that testing a black hiring program in one of the whitest regions of the country was exactly a symptom of the governmental, religious, political and cultural enforcement of a black lower class which is itself defined by how many other people are not-black.
Having worked in that cloyingly dishonest and self-deceptive environment for decades, I find Abagond’s detached and objective prose style refreshing.
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King said: “I think that perhaps, he was simply making a casual observation about how things are, and comparing it to how they might be without the influence of the long held taint of racism. “
Fair enough, but I think I’m justified in pointing out a common pattern where normal relations are pathologized because they don’t fit some arbitrary ideal.
He’s basically commenting on what non-racism “ought” to look like. Says who?
Here’s another example: you often see teenagers, middle aged folks, and the elderly sitting amongst themselves. Is this evidence of rampant ageism?
“color ain’t culture.”
I think that a demographic breakdown of Tyler Perry moviegoers (to cite but one example) might indicate that sometimes color and culture are indeed related.
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No randy, Even if everyone in that restaurant was totally un-racist on a person to person level, It would still be racism that has brought us to a place where racial culture is so important.
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sailorscout1986:
Laws were written mostly to maintain order above lower classes while keeping power, money, and privilege to the upper classes that oversea and manipulate society. I’m not saying one should break laws, but laws aren’t that cut and dry especially if you’re struggling.
The police look for black and brown drug dealers and drug users more often than they look for white drug dealers and users who greatly outnumber their black counterparts, but they get a lesser sentence depending on the state of certain drugs and (for some) are able to afford competent lawyers to defend them, while blacks are tried more harshly for the same reasons and due to the prejudice of associating black males with crime.
Why is the out-of-wedlock thing a major issue to you? I’m just curious, and I’m not saying it isn’t?
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100% agree with Kwamla. There is nothing natural in people segregating along “racial” lines. Those who make every effort to find evidence for that old fallacy project their very own (wishful?) thinking onto everybody else. Along the lines of “what I don’t want to happen, everybody else must not have it happen”. The most worrying part is the zeal those people put into their projections and how they exploit the malleability of people who are not headstrong.
It’s the same with mixed relationships and marriage. There’s this hypocritical argument opponents keep bringing up about the social pressure those couples face, denying that themselves, the opponents, are actually the problem. In fact, they don’t give a toss about the well-being of mixed couples and their children. The point is that they don’t like to see people mixing. It’s plain self-righteousness.
Just to pick up on “racial” segregation and comparison to other -isms. That’s missing the point. Take a mixed group of peers of students or workers in a certain area of expertise. Or musicians who all play Jazz. Or a group of tennis players. Each group of these people have something in common. They can have endless topics for conversation or fun or success together. You play Jazz or tennis, I like doing the same. Let’s have a jam or a match. You’re a petrol head, so am I. Chats about cars will just come automatically. etc… Now going into each group and separating individuals by colour makes no utter sense, (unless of course there’s a fundamental problem in a first place).
Taking the sexism parallel. When blokes choose to hang out together they might like to talk about football, have a pint, burp and crack dirty jokes. Things that many women are not exactly thrilled by. And vice versa, there are certain topics between women that are just too much information for many men. Same with the generation gap in interests, apart perhaps from a few exceptions. Many middle aged will be worried about how their jobs go, pay off their latest car or plan their next holidays. As for ageism, just picture a bunch of youths talking to the elderly about Dizzie Rascal, dubstep and the latest Playstation games while hacking away SMS on their mobiles. On the other hand, the elderly chatting about their vegetable garden, their arthritis or the dresses on the last “Strictly Come Dancing”…
Now where is “racial” segregation coming from? It certainly is not innate in humans as there are countless examples in this world where this is not even subject to public controversy. Racism may not be a sufficient condition but it certainly is a necessary one for segregation.
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@ Randy
“He’s basically commenting on what non-racism “ought” to look like. Says who?”
Yes, and he’s correct that non-racism does not look like 100% skin-color segregation. But there is a difference between saying that there’s something wrong in the overall system that causes a curious result, and saying that there’s something wrong with the individual people in the restaurant. Can you see that?
That is what Jason is saying here:
“Even if everyone in that restaurant was totally un-racist on a person to person level, It would still be racism that has brought us to a place where racial culture is so important.”
What if you were to take two open oil drums, one filled to the top with white marbles, the other filled to the top with black marbles, and tipped then over on the floor in the middle of a roller skating rink. What would you expect to find?
The laws of random distribution and entropy would leave you with a pretty thorough mixture of each color of marbles spread across the floor. Now what if you were to find such a floor of marbles with all black marbles on one half of the floor, and all white marbles on the other? You would be forced to conclude that the results where UNNATURAL.
Now, if you walk into a restaurant, or a movie theater, or a sports stadium, and the people there are all sorted according to skin color, you better believe that there’s an UNNATURAL reason for it. And it’s really not very hard to discern—just look at the history or race relations in this country.
Black people were purposefully kept away from the majority culture—first by laws, then by economic means, by the real estate industry, and by terrorists. SOMEBODY clearly wanted Blacks kept away from, and outside of, the majority culture. So now, all of these years later, are you really saying that the marbles just happened to fall on different sides of the room? Or are you going to be sensible and say that obviously, the centuries of enforced racial separation and mistrust continue to leave their mark on American society?
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King and Jas0n,
I would disagree that people are marbles which, in an environment without bias, would naturally intermix completely.
To believe this is to believe that culture and shared history are meaningless. On the surface your metaphor may seem noble and beautiful, but if you dig deeper it actually implies the destruction of cultural uniqueness.
Allow me to share a personal story which I think illustrates what I’m talking about.
I hosted a children’s birthday party at my house not long ago. In attendance were friends who are white, black, hispanic, asian, Indian, and Pakistani. You’d have easily won “diversity bingo” with that group.
We’ve had Muslims, Christians, and atheists at a Christmas party. Everyone gets along wonderfully, our children all play together, and there’s a real sense of friendship.
However, I think it’s fair to say that the majority of the time, our Indian friends are interacting with other Indians, asian friends with other asians, etc.
Is this racism? To believe that means that you must invalidate all cultural bonds and ties within these groups. I beg to differ.
INTRA-group cohesiveness does not imply INTER-group bias.
If you dump one drum of white marbles and another drum of black marbles and then observe that they’re not uniformly mixed, that does not imply that animosity exists between marbles.
A white marble can feel more in common with other white marbles and a black marble can prefer the company of other black marbles based upon shared histories that go back hundreds of years, and still think nothing less of the other marbles.
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The police look for black and brown drug dealers and drug users more often than they look for white drug dealers and users who greatly outnumber their black counterparts
Bingo! Let me tell you of a case I am familiar with. An old white man, 70 plus was couriering boxes of what turned out to be heroin for some Chinese friends of his. They told him it was fabrics and imports from China(turns out it was China White). He did this for several years as he was lonely and these people befriended him. Well, finally, he was caught by mistake as it turned out. Now why do you think these Chinese people used this 70 year old white man to courier their heroin? They did so because they knew the police would not profile this elderly white man as they would a Chinese man(this was in Vancouver to Toronto). This man got off with time served and a one dollar fine. If this had been a racialized person, he would of done penitentiary time regardless of any sympathy evoked from his circumstances.
When blokes choose to hang out together they might like to talk about football, have a pint, burp and crack dirty jokes.
I do that all the time sans the pint and football. Instead it’s the latest sales, dirty jokes, belching and f*rting. Folks, people hang out for various reasons particularly for similar interests. There is something inherently wrong when you say I can’t hang out with him because they are not of my group even though I may have nothing in common with most of my group but plenty with the different group. It is illogical. You will be spending many an hour on your own. There is something wrong as King writes if you go to a stadium to watch a game and the crowds are segregated by race. After all, they do have something in common, the game. It is symptomatic of the underlying racism in society nothing more or nothing less.
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But Randy, this is really “American culture” we’re talking about. As much as we like to hang on to a perceived culture of origin, once we’re all here watching the same T.V. shows, going to the same schools, listening to the same music, eating much of the same food, we have ENOUGH of a shared experience to find common ground.
There is nothing in our skin color that automatically attracts us to each other. There is no single White culture and there is no single Black culture.
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@ randy
“Is this racism?”
seriously dude? You’re going to make that comparison?( Besides the fact that India is in Asia) those groups are all from different countries. Naturally people from a certain country are going to have more in common with other people from that same country. there is nothing sinister about that. That does not compare to racial culture in the US.
be serious.
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“would disagree that people are marbles which, in an environment without bias, would naturally intermix completely.”
And yet, How many times have you walked into a restaurant and noticed a table where everyone was of irish descent, and another table where everyone was of german decent, and another where everyone was of italian decent. (If you could tell by looking that is)
Answer? never. Because whites in this country have intermixed completely. Regardless of past cultural differences.
checkmate.
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@ Randy
Now then, care to tell us why YOU”RE here?
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Jas0n and King,
Alternatively, you seem to argue in some threads that my prescription for a universal set of guiding principles for success doesn’t take into account the unique history of black folks and all they’ve been through (which implies a separate and collective culture), and in other threads that we are supposedly all the same except for residual bigotry.
Well, which is it? Is there a single unified culture or isn’t there? I don’t see how you can have it both ways.
As for why I’m here, I suppose that I became interested in the subject when I found some racialist postings on a news aggregator website about a year ago, then began to debate with various racists and white nationalists.
Given that I’m happily married to a non-white 3rd world immigrant and have mixed race children, there were significant and obvious differences of opinion.
For balance, I thought I’d then try to find out what the “other side” had to say. Abagond ‘s site seemed to encourage a lively discussion on these matters.
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No real mystery Randy.
I’m not denying that there are differences between White cultures and Black cultures, I’m saying that those differences are the result of an artificial segregation imposed upon all by the White social establishment, rather than a natural tendency.
I walk in an auditorium and see Blacks and Whites self segregating and think it to be the result of a history of imposed segregation between the two groups.
You walk in an auditorium and see Blacks and Whites self segregating and think it is because people with higher levels of melanin by nature skin seek each other like a law of physics, and that Whites do the same.
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King said: “You walk in an auditorium and see Blacks and Whites self segregating and think it is because people with higher levels of melanin by nature skin seek each other like a law of physics, and that Whites do the same.”
No, rather I’m saying that if blacks and whites are self-segregating, I consider that they may do so out of natural cultural differences.
Africa, Europe, and Asia have markedly different climates, geographies, histories, and cultures. It would be more odd to me if those quite reasonable differences miraculously evaporated.
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“natural cultural differences.”
ridiculous.
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I still think you’re missing what I’m saying.
We all totally get that when Africans (from Africa) and Whites (from America) and Chinese (from China) suddenly end up in a room together, that they may self segregate. But when White-Americans, African-Amercans, and Chinese-Americans (who have all been in here for generations) seem unable to make friendships with people who do not match their own specific phenotype, in a country where forced segregation was practiced—Occam’s Razor says it’s probably a residual of the forced segregation.
I have Korean friends, Mexican friends, White American friends, Armenian friends, Bengali friends, and Black friends. On my last birthday, we all ended up in a downtown restaurant where I was hoodwinked into a surprise party. No one PLANNED for it to be “Diverse,” it was just the people I know, and and call my friends.
Now, we were all out eating together, laughing and talking, having a good time. There was no cultural confusion. We didn’t need translators. Nobody was complaining about the different climate that they weren’t used to. These are ALL red herrings! And as we left that night, the Armenian girl was still Armenian, and the Korean girls were still Korean. The Blacks were still Black.
It isn’t some big deal to get to the place where you can hang out with people of different ethnicities. There are no REAL impediments to doing so. I mean, you married a woman from Asia, are you struggling to be compatible or have you began to realize that all the important things are not really about custom, race and culture?
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“Now, we were all out eating together, laughing and talking, having a good time. There was no cultural confusion. We didn’t need translators. Nobody was complaining about the different climate that they weren’t used to. These are ALL red herrings! And as we left that night, the Armenian girl was still Armenian, and the Korean girls were still Korean. The Blacks were still Black.”
right, I mean it’s not like i’m trying to envision some unknown alternate reality here. Americans of different races are capable if social interaction. It just seems to be the exception to the rule.
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“I mean it’s not like i’m trying to envision some unknown alternate reality here. Americans of different races are capable if social interaction. It just seems to be the exception to the rule.”
Less so if you are young, live in Los Angeles, and are a professional.
But most places that is certainly true.
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Good points from King. And one thing, when americans are abroad, when you see a bunch of american tourists anywhere, they are all americans regardless of the color.
They all act the same, talk the same, find the same foods strange, all head for the nearest Pizza Hut or Mac etc. I’ve seen this many times even here in Finland. And why? Because they are all americans. Not blacks, whites, asians, inuits, melanesians, tongoan etc. They share the common culture and codes of conduct which come visible when they are together in a strange land surrouded by a strange culture.
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King said: “I have Korean friends, Mexican friends, White American friends, Armenian friends, Bengali friends, and Black friends. On my last birthday, we all ended up in a downtown restaurant where I was hoodwinked into a surprise party. No one PLANNED for it to be “Diverse,” it was just the people I know, and and call my friends.”
You basically echoed a story I posted, but then ignored the second part.
Here it is restated:
What happened the day after your party? If you found out that the next day your Korean friends spent their time with fellow Koreans, Mexican friends with fellow Mexicans, and Bengali friends with fellow Bengalis, would that indicate residual racism?
Of course not.
There’s another logical error in Jas0n’s proposition, and that is his assumption that race was the only grouping at the restaurant, and that the black and white diners were interchangeable within their respective groups.
People tend to form groupings based on a wide range of factors, such as hobbies, education, career type, socioeconomic status, family situation, etc. These are not nearly as easily visible as race when giving a quick glance around a restaurant, but are no less significant.
Here’s one more example: in countries where multiple tribal / ethnic groups coexist, in many cases people tend to associate most frequently with those of a similar tribe.
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@Sam
I don’t understand why you would bother to travel to another country if you’re just going to eat at Pizza Hut or McDonalds. I would try to attach myself to a group of locals I trusted and then see what happens. But I haven’t traveled much sadly.
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“There’s another logical error in Jas0n’s proposition, and that is his assumption that race was the only grouping at the restaurant, and that the black and white diners were interchangeable within their respective groups.”
lol. when did I say that? you’re grasping at straws here. it’s just sad.
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Libertarians oppose the initiation of force. Slavery is the initiation of force. So a Libertarian could support reparations.
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And your point is?
In the vast majority of cases they grew up in different cultures, with different languages (at least on tribal level), in different value systems, religions or, in extreme cases, they have been conditioned to have animosities against each other. The human brain is very malleable and responds the quicker to changing situations, the less it had been conditioned in a lopsided manner, unless the individual has some underlying mental disorder. (And even that can be corrected.) Even age has a less significant influence on this fact than previously thought. Btw, there is neurobiological experimental evidence for this.
I remember very well when my grandmother’s sister emigrated from Cameroon to France after her husband died. A 60 something year old woman. Within a couple of years after getting over her grief and a bit of home sickness she was seen all the time socialising with European French, Réunionais, Maghrébins etc, apart from our family. She basically had to adapt as our family over in Paris was always a mixture throughout the whole colour spectrum. She was a thoroughbred Douala but she would rarely actively seek contact to other Cameroonians in Europe, the least the English speaking ones. They wouldn’t even be able to properly communicate in their national languages, let alone their tribal languages although in our family we never cultivated any tribal animosities. They might share a couple of similar superficial features, similar food, clothes and hair products but that’s about it.
Each human is an individual first of all.
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“What happened the day after your party? If you found out that the next day your Korean friends spent their time with fellow Koreans, Mexican friends with fellow Mexicans, and Bengali friends with fellow Bengalis, would that indicate residual racism?”
That’s not really the point. The Koreans sometimes frequent a Korean spa over on Olympic Street.
The Armenian girl belongs to a largeArmenian church nearby
http://www.uacc-church.org/
And the Bengali’s attend a certain temple
http://www.nithyanandavedictemple.org/index.php
But guess what? Even in those places, it’s not 100% racially divided. There are racial outsiders that attend all three places, and from what I’ve been told, they don’t just pair up and keep to themselves but get along with everybody. I haven’t visited a Black Church that hasn’t had some non Blacks there when I looked around.
I’m not saying that there would be anything wrong even if when my friends left if they did go to their spa, or temple if it was 100% racially homogenous, I’m just saying that when it happens in restaurants, amusement parks, and bowling alleys, it seems like an unnatural impulse. AGAIN, not to say that ALL of the people in the restaurant are racist, but that the SYSTEM that breeds such behavior was and is racist.
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To certain commenters:
All this fuss, when the blog subtitle says it all:
“500 words a day on whatever I want”
D’oh! This is Abagond’s blog. Visitors, take it or leave it.
BTW, the NYC header image is interesting – one of the recent “majority race by census tract” maps?
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The assign-an-avatar program you have is hilarious.
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The map of New York you see at top is from the US Census Bureau’s American Community Survey, based on samples from 2005 to 2009. Each dot represents 200 people colour-coded for race:
red = Asian
yellow = Hispanic
green = white
blue = black
grey = other
New York and its suburbs are now less than half white, but as you can see it is far from post-racial. I have lived most of my life right at the edges of those blue regions.
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laromana says,
Latinos/Hispanics are of either MIXED RACE Spanish/Inidigenous-Native/Other/just Indigenous-Native ancestry (mostly from Central/South America) or MIXED RACE Spanish/African/Other ancestry (mostly from the Carribbean islands-Cuba/Puerto Rico/Dominican Republic and some parts of Central/South America).
ALL MIXED RACE peoples of Spanish ancestry are Latino/Hispanics not just the ones who DON’T have African ancestry.
Latinos/Hispanics of either MIXED RACE Spanish/Inidigenous-Native/Other or just Inidigenous-Native ancestry are NOT WHITE.
NON MIXED RACE Spainiards and other Europeans who settled in Latin America are often referred to as/consider themselves “Latinos/Hispanics” but they’re White (the ONLY WHITES in Latin America).
the Cynic says,
3)Now the Hispanics are what we need to worry about, right? Wrong. They are not race. They are a group of ppl from Latin America that have a substantial amount of European ancestry. Ppl like Cameron Diaz, Alexis Bledel, and Christina Aguilera are driving down the non-Hispanic white population(all are obviously white). Puerto Ricans and Cubans are the least mixed group. Their damn near white. Mexicans are pretty much a bunch of halfies even though half of them self-identify as white on the US census(a good sign!). Not only is this group half and damn near white on avg, but according to a Pew Research study 45% of them marry non-Hispanic whites and their off-white, practically white children are also driving down the non-Hispanic white population. Basically we are going to have more of these guys walking around…
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N7eZHsIZ2I&w=640&h=390
Now doesn’t he look like he canalmost pass as a 100% descendant from Spain? Why be afraid of a substantially Euro population that will probably become more white as generations pass?
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abagond,
You may or may not be writing for white people but alot of your posts are about white people.
You seem to think you can say whatever you want without it being challenged.
If i wrote a blog in a reverse point of view as yours I would get flooded with black points of view.
And then If said “whites only” imagine how you are coming across.
Its funny how blacks seem to go sepratist when it suits them
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@ dave
Read the post, he was saying he didn’t write the blog to convince white people search their soul, and no where did he ever say for “x group” eyes only. So what are you on about? Did his content hit to close to home?
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@ dave: Concur on all points. All kinds of selective logic on this blog. Any white person who did this would be in a world of hurt.
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“All kinds of selective logic on this blog. Any white person who did this would be in a world of hurt.”
talk about selective logic.
Equality would have to exist BEFORE the same standards could be applied across the board to whites and blacks in terms of what one should and shouldn’t say about the other.
Once you come to terms with the idea that there is in fact a huge power differential between WP and POC you will realize that WP are not the victims here.
The only way to avoid such a conclusion is through selective logic. Thanks for the illustration Mencken 😉
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And what would “equality” look like?
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“And what would “equality” look like?”
It’s a relative term of course. And I can only say It doesn’t look like what we have now.
It isn’t about creating an impossible utopia as some suggest.
It’s simply about applying the same rules and principals to everyone. There will always be “winners & losers” and I think generally most people are OK with that so long as the playing field is level.
It’s a lot easier to visualize inequality when your holding the short end of the stick.
So when white people complain about reverse discrimination it comes off like we just don’t want to compete in a game where the same rules apply to everyone. We want to hold on to our special advantages. There is no pride in it that
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So “same rules and principles (note proper spelling)” would include affirmative action?
Before the mid-1960s there was a lot of discrimination against blacks in the USA. Since then there’s been a lot of discrimination in favor of blacks.
I’m opposed to officially sanctioned discrimination for or against anybody.
Of course blacks love AA; don’t call it “racism” when whites don’t agree.
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Thanks captain grammar.
“Before the mid-1960s there was a lot of discrimination against blacks in the USA. Since then there’s been a lot of discrimination in favor of blacks.
I’m opposed to officially sanctioned discrimination for or against anybody. ”
This implies that the levels of discrimination experienced by whites and blacks respectfully has been similar and that discrimination against blacks was halted in the 1960’s.
Both of those implications are false.
See? you need to create a false equality in order for your views to thrive. It’s necessary for you to pretend that equality exists so that you can call foul. It’s not based on reality.
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False? How?
Do you have the Official Historical Discrimination-o-Meter to assess this?
The working-class black person who got denied a place in college in 1937 due to Jim Crow suffered; the working-class white person in 1997 who didn’t make it due to AA also suffered.
Who is to say which is worse? Unless, of course, you believe black suffering is ALWAYS worse than white suffering.
That would make you a black supremacist, wouldn’t it?
If you actually had to live in the pre-Civil Rights South, then you have some cred here, but I suspect you didn’t.
I have seen plenty of AA discrimination against whites in education and employment.
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Oh, and it’s convenient that you are only against “officially sanctioned” discrimination. It’s a pretty safe bet now that civil rights has passed that you won’t ever have to speak up for a POC thanks to your criteria. I promise you that unofficial discrimination is doing infinitely more damage at this moment than affirmative action ever did. So If you were really against discrimination in principal than you would be much less concerned with affirmative action than you are at present.
It’s obvious that perceived slight against “your people” by “those others” is what’s really important to you. So why bother pretending otherwise? Your only fooling yourself if you think you have some kind of moral grounding here.
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“Do you have the Official Historical Discrimination-o-Meter to assess this? ”
lol. yes in fact.
It’s called a history book. Try cracking one
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Really? Which one? I have a lot. And a few degrees in history.
Simple question: Are you a black supremacist? Because you sure sound like one.
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And if you really want to get out the historical pain measuring stick, blacks had a vacation in the old days, compared to the native populations who, if you recall, got pretty much killed off by the palefaces.
Read that book?
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“Simple question: Are you a black supremacist? Because you sure sound like one.”
nope. I’m white. And nothing I’ve said ( or believe for that matter) in any way promotes the supremacy of any one group over another.
“Read that book?”
They wrote a book on oppression Olympics? hm, no I can’t say I’ve read that one.
So your saying blacks should be grateful they weren’t completely wiped out. OK. Excuse my while I go puke up my lungs. 🙂
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Suggest you take a knife to the carotid – a lot faster and less painful than puking up lungs.
A white person filled with so much pathological self-loathing is going to be a suicide eventually anyway, might as well get it done.
🙂
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I love how when people like RJK come in here they always begin with this facade of civility and reason. Then as soon as they run out of reasonable arguments the ugliness comes out.
All the naked tribalism is laid bare.
I need a bath.
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Oooookay, if you’re comparing affirmative action to Jim Crow, you’ve already jumped the shark and ended your credibility.
One was a system of oppression that denied legal and human rights to an entire race of people at every level of society. The other is a system designed to increase diversity due to historical inequalities created by the aforementioned system of oppression. (Take note though, affirmative action in practice only really helps White women.)
But if RJK really IS a historian, then maybe he’s read these:
Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of The United States.
Jarold Packer’s an American Nightmare: The History of Jim Crow.
Ira Kratznelson’s When Affirmative Action Was White. (One of my recent favorites, as it details how AA actually got started during the New Deal policies of the 30’s and 40’s and was directed towards Whites specifically over Blacks)
David Golland’s, Constructing Affirmative Action: The Struggle for Equal Employment Opportunity
and finally… Peter Schmidt’s Color and Money. (This is especially important as it documents how AA hasn’t really helped people of color because of political gutting of social programs, among other factors.)
Also, if you doubt discrimination is a problem that needs addressing by AA (and other policies) then just check out this news story:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/05/26/naming.names.importance/?hpt=Sbin
One last thing RJK.
Are you a White supremacist? Because you sound like one =P
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ZJE, as I am partly of Native and Jewish background, I don’t think the White Sheet Brigade is a good fit. 🙂
I do favor AA actually, but based on economics, not race or ethnicity. That way, the actually disadvantaged would benefit, of all backgrounds. Which the country needs very badly, not the current racial spoils system which benefits people like B.H. Obama, the ultimate AA baby (to quote liberal blogger Mickey Kaus) who got all kinds of preferential treatment in education and employment even though he went to the top private school in HI and had NO ancestors who had suffered under slavery, etc.
I really am a historian and know those books, most of which are quite New Left, not my thing. Best historian on race and slavery is Eugene Genovese, a no-kidding Marsxist and a great scholar.
On the names thing, of course it’s true, but whitey isn’t forcing anyone to name their kids Shaniqua, Neveah, and DeTerrence.
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“I have seen plenty of AA discrimination against whites in education and employment.”
Oh really? How. Cite some examples, please. And please don’t drone on about what YOU perceived to be an under qualified Black worker getting a job that a White person applied for and didn’t get. Unless you were the hiring or admissions officer, you don’t know what factors affected the decision to hire one person over the other. So please just STFU about it.
Besides, anyone who knows anything knows that Affirmative Action benefits more than just Black people. One wonders why nobody balks about AA when other minorities get jobs? You never hear it bandied about when an Asian gets a job, for example. Or why it’s not discussed in terms of White women? The successes and advances made by White women in employment, education and business ownership in the last 30 or 40 years are largely attributable to AA. And since White women are also associated with White families, White men have reaped the advantages, too. Additionally, AA policies are also directed at the disabled, the elderly (over aged 55 worker/student), veterans, and rural populations — all of which have significant “White” overlaps. This implies that Whites have, in fact, garnered considerable advantage from Affirmative Action.
Given this information, one could argue that Affirmative Action has actually done more to propel society than hinder it. It’s only your own White supremacist views and notions of privilege that get in the way of seeing/understanding that.
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AA “only really helps white women”? Um, what?
Not denying white women have benefitted, they have; but black men have done quite well too, especially if like B.H. Obama they are in the Talented Tenth anyway, and black women have done very well indeed.
Easy to make the case that Asians are the worst victims of AA, at least in higher education.
I am a tenured professor and have taught at three pretty big universities, so that is the world I know best, and in my view it is certainly not white women who have gotten the most spoils from the AA system.
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@ RJK
Where do you think that affirmative action is hurting people? Employment? Education? What?
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@jas0nburns: “All the naked tribalism is laid bare”
Why is tribalism acceptable for blacks – isn’t that what this blog is really about? – but not for whites (or browns, or yellows, etc)?
Also, as one who has Native ancestors, you should find a better word than “tribalism” – pejorative and offensive, as you should be aware.
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@ King: “Where do you think that affirmative action is hurting people? Employment? Education? What?”
Are you really that dense? Lot of things in life really are a zero-sum game. The place at Elite University given to a black person who would not be qualified except for skin color (this happens all the time, as anybody who’s worked in admissions for even a day knows) is a place that does not go to a white or Asian person who is qualified by the books.
At my institution, which like all of them tries very hard to get qualified minority students, probably ten percent of the black admissions meet the standards (grades, SAT, etc) we apply to whites, ie they would get in if admissions were “race-blind”. Asians are the most discriminated against in admissions, by far, on a per capita basis.
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Let me also add that AA practices I have criticized really do not help the 90% of admitted blacks who are not academically qualified. In most cases, they hurt them.
Their dropout rate is sky-high, despite massive allowances and the fact that no professor wants to fail blacks, no matter how unprepared they are. And, of course, most of the white and Asian students know that the majority of black students are not in the same league as they are, brains-wise, so there is a lot of bad feeling along racial lines, and most blacks feel insecure (most with good reason).
This does not wind up helping anyone. Which is why I favor AA on economic grounds, not racial.
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“Are you really that dense?”
Assume, for the moment that I am, sport.
“The place at Elite University given to a black person who would not be qualified except for skin color (this happens all the time, as anybody who’s worked in admissions for even a day knows) is a place that does not go to a white or Asian person who is qualified by the books.”
So.. Blacks are what… about 12% of the U.S. population or so? And the Black 4-year College graduation rate is only at about 40% of the Black U.S. population. So Blacks who graduate from college represent about 4.8% of the total U.S. population.
The majority of those are not rich, and are attending state universities. So exactly how many Blacks do you think are displacing well deserving Whites at these elite universities?
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I am of the view that discrimination is bad and wrong no matter how many are hurt by it. Apparently you are not.
Statistically speaking, what percentage of blacks were lynched? Very, very few, infintessimally few. Still a pretty bad thing, wouldn’t you say?
How many blacks actually were physically prevented from enrolling at University of Mississippi in the 1950s? Perhaps 1/1000 of a percent of blacks in the state? You opposed to that?
You have shown your true, ahem, colors here by demonstrating that you do not actually want justice or fairness, and certainly not a race-blind society, but power, money, and spoils. To get them you will howl “racism” but, unfortunately for you, most whites now see through this.
Those of us who actually wanted fairness and a place where we value the content of character above color are especially disappointed. My racist colleagues were right about the blacks after all.
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BTW what is up with capitalizing Black all the time?
People who always type Capital-W White are over at Stormfront and related crazy sites.
Kinda revealing …
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“I am of the view that discrimination is bad and wrong no matter how many are hurt by it. Apparently you are not.”
When exactly did I indicate that I was not?
I just find it interesting that you mention Affirmative Action and then go directly to an example about Blacks, rather than women, or hispanics, or anything else. Do you believe that Blacks are the primary beneficiaries of Affirmative Action?
“Statistically speaking, what percentage of blacks were lynched?”
Acts of public terrorism, by virtue of their violent and threatening nature, effect more than just the direct victim of the violence.
Are you saying that Affirmative Action and lynching are equivalent? Do you consider Affirmative Action to be an “Act of Terrorism?”
“How many blacks actually were physically prevented from enrolling at University of Mississippi in the 1950s?”
By law, all of them were, as a class. The government made it law and that law authorized to be upheld and enforced by force, up to, and including, physical lethal force.
“My racist colleagues were right about the blacks after all.”
colleague [ˈkɒliːg] n
a fellow worker or member of a staff, department, profession, etc.
So you are working with racists, you say?? And uh.. what was that about being disappointed? I don’t think I was quite paying attention…
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King didn’t you hear him? “it happens all the time” I mean, really we should just take his word for it because he seems really sure.
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Abagond says 95% of white people are racists, so practically all my white colleagues (as in co-workers) are racists.
You are in favor of discriminating against non-blacks if it benefits blacks, clearly.
Fine, a valid position.
Just don’t pretend you’re not, don’t cloak it in “fairness” language because it has nothing to with that.
Which means you are no different than white nationalists and supremacists.
Easy to see now … and, believe me, whites are figuring it out. Ten-fifteen years ago my white students were very ‘progressive’ on race, now a minority are and the number drops every year. They see the truth now.
They are on to your kind.
🙂
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“BTW what is up with capitalizing Black all the time?”
I capitalize both “Blacks” and “Whites.” I also capitalize “Eskimos.” Did you bother to check that, or are just lazy enough to make assumptions without actually substantiating them?
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@jas0nburns: “King didn’t you hear him? “it happens all the time” I mean, really we should just take his word for it because he seems really sure.”
Over the last 20 years I have participated in admissions at three different universities, so I have some experience. I also see how AA in admissions actually plays out with real live students once they are admitted.
What experience in this specific area do you have?
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@ King: “Did you bother to check that, or are just lazy enough to make assumptions without actually substantiating them?”
Your comments are not canonical literature to be memorized like the Koran, fyi.
It’s still creepy.
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“Abagond says 95% of white people are racists, so practically all my white colleagues (as in co-workers) are racists.
Did you check to see how many Blacks he said were racists?
“You are in favor of discriminating against non-blacks if it benefits blacks, clearly.
Just point us to where I indicated that, if you’re serious.
– BTW, I doubt if you are really Native American at all. Some White people like to make this claim because they think this makes them bullet proof against being identified as a racist.
Yes, the woods are full of fake White “Indians” these days.
It’s rather pathetic.
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@ King: “Just point us to where I indicated that, if you’re serious.” You clearly favor “positive discrimination” (as they accurately term AA in the UK) in favor of blacks; I do not. Your race-blind desires are not exactly shining through.
“BTW, I doubt if you are really Native American at all. Some White people like to make this claim because they think this makes them bullet proof against being identified as a racist.”
You think I’m a racist anyway – and this is the part that will scare you – I DON’T CARE! And I’m into my heritage, and I know my Native roots. Don’t wear the costume, how very offensive of you.
Of course, you could be a midget Jewish lesbian, this is the internet.
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When yelling “racist” at whites to intimidate and get your way fails to work, as is happening thanks to people like you, what will you do then?
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” You clearly favor “positive discrimination” (as they accurately term AA in the UK) in favor of blacks;
Where did I state that I clearly favor Affirmative Action?
“Of course, you could be a midget Jewish lesbian, this is the internet.”
Which is why your little speeches about all of your experience with college admissions seem rather funny to me. Do you really think that simply saying so online gives you even an ounce of authority here on the internet? Hahahaha…. for all I know (and suspect) your part in the admissions process was changing the light bulbs in the room when summoned on your maintenance department walkie talkie.
You see, old fellow, people like you come to the internet with all of the answers. You think that you know “how Black people think.” That is why you make dummy assumptions like your thought os capitalizing races. You don’t read carefully, you carry a long list of a priori beliefs about what people thing before they even say it. And why? Because they are Black, and you know how Blacks think about the world.
You, the fake native, understand.
I am not impressed.
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RJK:
How odd:
When we are talking about affirmative action, you worked in a university admissions office.
When we were talking about Emmett Till, you had a law degree from Georgetown and worked on sexual harassment cases.
When we were talking about Srebrenica you were a high-ranking American officer – and Serbian apologist – who served in the Balkans and gave testimony to the Hague.
And yet despite such experience and education you give no sign of being anything more than a two-bit troll, no sign of being more than 17 years old – well, apart from using the word “honky”.
How odd.
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RJK was a Mencken sock puppet. He is now banned.
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The offended Native-American part gave it away. They never know that they don’t sound the part.
The old false “Internet Authority” tactic [for the 100th time] Not very original, I’m afraid.
bygones.
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Haha, how odd indeed. Apparently this internet fauxpert is just another sad attempt at foisting racism into rational discussion. Too bad so sad.
The Native-American/Jewish part gave it away for me. That and that he said he’s a history professor as well as a senior military officer. Next he’d be telling us he’s an astrophysicist with an emphasis in human genetics!
(Oh wait.. that’s HBDers Steve Hsu.)
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King didn’t you hear him? “it happens all the time” I mean, really we should just take his word for it because he seems really sure.
I hope this RJK fellow doesn’t teach stats!
When yelling “racist” at whites to intimidate and get your way fails to work, as is happening thanks to people like you, what will you do then?
HELP, POLICE!!!!!!
How odd.
Not odd, another kid with too much time on their hands and little if any supervision from their parents!
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@ Herneith
He blogs volumes between testifying at the Hague, teaching history, and soldiering!
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That ruse was so easy to see through.
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@Laromana
Was that comment supposed to be directed towards me? I’ve already written about Hispanic American ancestry on another post.
My point still stands. They may not be “white”(a point I nv tried to make), but they are most certainly substantially European. The genetic studies speak for themselves. Plus, would you really say someone who is around 80% mono-racial, like many of the Hispanics in the Eastern side of the country, is truly mixed? If that is the case couldn’t we argue the majority of African Americans aren’t Black?
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my problem is when anyone lumps all people into one category
like if you look at the villans from world war two- hitler and mussolini you could start saying- look at these german evil people or look at these evil italian people. then you could start saying look at these evil white people taking two examples and generalizing.
then your words become a twisted version of the truth.
there is evil in all people and there is good in all people.
just because more white people have more power in america – and by the way that number is going down as the gap beween rich and poor is widening. you start to judge all white people on skin color no matter how poor they are.
there is no way to put statistics on racism because you don’t know the millions of good whites in america.
just try to judge a person by the content of thier character and realize everyone has a voice and an opinion.
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@ Dave
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@ zek j evets
“When a Black person does not get approved for a home loan because they’re considered a “risky investment” but a White person with the same credit does because they happen to have played golf with bank branch manager… that is what we are talking about. And it does happen, in various forms on a regular basis in this country. As we’ve shown you multiple times.”
I’ve got an even better story, zek. When I was living in New York City, I was trying to rent an apartment. It was a gorgeous one-bedroom in the Washington Heights area of Manhattan. Being a single BW, I was also pleased to find out that the super who was showing me the apartment was a NYC police officer. He was Dominican and really nice and told me he would put in a good word for me to the owner of the building.
Long story short, the super did put in a good word for me, so the only 2 candidates for the place were me and a WM. The owner’s office was in Brooklyn, so I had to travel there to meet with her. While I was waiting for the interview to begin, I saw that she had both mine and the WM’s credit reports on her desk.
I looked at his–he had 2 charge-offs, liens, a low credit score–the whole shebang. My credit was spotless–my credit score was high. So I’m thinking I’ve got this apartment–no problem.
Well the landlord comes into the room (this was our first time seeing each other) and her pleasant expression disappears in an instant. Then she glances down at the credit reports, picks up HIS report and begins “Well with your credit history…”
And I say to her “That’s not my report.” And the guy’s name was definitely a GUY’s name, and my name is a traditional woman’s name. Her response to that was”Oh…sorry for the mistake.” And she got me out of there ASAP.
Needless to say, she rented the apartment to the guy (I found out from the super, who apologized to me about the situation, which of course wasn’t his fault). I just hope Mr. Terrible Credit stiffed her on rent continually and made her life hell. Because she CHOSE to give the apt to him rather than rent to a BW.
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@ King
“@ Herneith
He blogs volumes between testifying at the Hague, teaching history, and soldiering!”
LOL!
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@ Trublu112
It’s an old story… because sure, your credit history was clean BUT:
1) Your wild Black boyfriend was going to move in!
2) Your brother was a gang member and may get shot on the property
3) You were going to play loud rap music every night
4) You’d end up having a Black prostitute friend as a roommate
5) It was too good to be true – you found a way to cheat and make your FICO score look better than it really was.
People believe so many stupid things about ALL Black people, that they wouldn’t believe about anybody else, that they end up just not wanting to risk it.
But hey… slavery ended 150 years ago… so what are we complaining about?
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@ King
@ Trublu112
It’s an old story… because sure, your credit history was clean BUT:
1) Your wild Black boyfriend was going to move in!
2) Your brother was a gang member and may get shot on the property
3) You were going to play loud rap music every night
4) You’d end up having a Black prostitute friend as a roommate
5) It was too good to be true – you found a way to cheat and make your FICO score look better than it really was.
People believe so many stupid things about ALL Black people, that they wouldn’t believe about anybody else, that they end up just not wanting to risk it.
But hey… slavery ended 150 years ago… so what are we complaining about?
You are too funny :-)…
My wild black boyfriend notwithstanding…that’s why I have a problem with the arguments that sailorscout1986 and Patricia Kayden make about “Black Enlightenment.” I’m as enlightened as the next Black person–no out of wedlock pregnancies, college graduate with honors, no arrests, no illegal drug use or legal drug abuse, a good job, still great credit…etc, etc.
But I still didn’t get that apartment.
It’s like what A. Philip Randolph said in an interview I saw a few years before he died. To paraphrase: ‘Depending on the times, some want to put black folks in the “Civil Rights” end of the Black Achievement boat, while at other times they want to put us all in the “Individual Responsibility” end. But if you continually just sit in one end or the other, you’re going to keep sinking and getting nowhere. We have to spread out the entire boat to achieve balance.’
And I agree.
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Well you wrote an interesting post and generated lots of traffic. I was pretty impressed that you cited Aristotle. That’s whiter than most whites would or could write, these days. But let add my response from somebody who is white, not ashamed of being white, and who doesn’t really see whiteness as being such a big deal, for white’s anyway.
You said: “White people are less than a fourth of mankind, yet they still tend to see themselves as the centre of the universe, as the height of human history.”
— That’s true as far as it goes, but it doesn’t go far enough. EVERY group tends to see themselves as the center of the universe, and their own perspective as the crucial perspective where the truth lies. We are a self centered species: blacks, whites, etc., at least until some of us wise up. Ultimately when you grow up you realize everybody is in the same boat for the most part, and we should treat each other as we want to be treated. That’s not post-racist insight, just a “were all human” insight.
About your “five walls of shame”… Let me add comments after each. Sorry, you missed the mark on those:
1. The wall of lies — The lies have been exposed long ago. So NSTO (No Shame To Overcome).
2. The wall of self-interest – self interest is different than racism, though it can use racism as an excuse. But religion along with some forms of socialism apply the appropriate critique of self interest, class interest, etc. NSTO.
3. The wall of the white self – Who has a “white” self, other than maybe some Klansman swilling MD in the back of his truck listening to Cracker CD’s? Maybe blacks have a black self since their racial experience is more defining. But for your average white – who has little to no experience with racial discrimination – skin color is of no more importance than shoe size or hair color. BTW, no offense to those who like the band Cracker… (including me). NSTO.
4. The wall of white society — The members of “white society” who erect such socially despised walls get to answer for them. Your average white has no better chance of getting admitted to Augusta National Country Club than you… Take it up with the Masters Tournament organizers, or get Tiger to speak up. NSTO.
5. The wall of shame and guilt — This one always cracks me up. At least today, your average white doesn’t feel responsible for the ills that afflict many blacks. What white tell a black boy to “stop acting white” when he studies? Strangely, it’s the blacks that pile on with that attack. Slavery is long gone and the folks who enforced Jim Crow are dead or have dementia now. I don’t call anybody the N word… though if I did it would be because the fellow so called was acting like a duchebag and the N word was as handy and insult as MF or DB. Same as the not-so-nice words cracker, paddie, or beaner that get tossed on the less melanin rich from time to time. NSTO? Well, maybe later on I might feel embarrassed for acting like a DB myself. As to racial shame, naw.
Lastly, as to the purpose of writing: Yeah, maybe it’s to speak the truth, though sometimes a good lie is telling. So I’ll end with a concession — Yes, SOME whites might indeed have white guilt. A lot of times these tortured souls seem to be white women. We might wonder all wonder why, since what did these white women do that was so wrong? But maybe their white guilt is a convenient “excuse.” Those Harlequin Romances can cross the color line, and reading the wrong thing can lead more than your thoughts astray.
In this there is lots of truth and prejudice — but only if you care to think about it.
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Oh, in addition to all the above comments, I will add just one last thing.
You’ll be doing me a favor if you read the whole post with your eyes squinted – so maybe you will miss the numerous misspellings and grammar lapses. I will confess that I truly suck at first drafts, though a writer should never let that stop him/her. Further, “comments” sections don’t lend themselves to fixing the oversights and sentences changed in mid-writing that you never find until right after you hit “publish.” Feel free to keep any extra commas you find there.
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As a white woman, I appreciate your candor and willingness to speak. You have, on numerous occasions, opened my eyes and heart and given me understanding. Thank you.
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Only the strong survive Abagond, isn’t that right?
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Just saw an eight minute Beleaf in Fatherhood video that covers the same ground Abagond tread on this post years ago.
Entitled “Why is it always about being black?”, the vlogger responds to people who question how and why he and his wife ground their preschool children in appreciation of their blackness.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6b8Qo_mBSM&t=14)
The video makes you think of the first time you realized you were Black. What if all our parents made this same effort? What difference would it make in how we see ourselves?
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