It is sometime in the future. The Chinese have taken over North America, which is now 75% Chinese and 12.4% white. All the wealth and power whites once had has been taken from them by the Chinese: land, houses, businesses, mines, banks, police departments, courts, schools, government, etc.
You are white.
So:
Food: Restaurants and markets sell mainly Chinese food. You wind up eating Chinese food most of the time because it is easier and cheaper. You do eat pizza but it is that Chinese sort of pizza that Pizza Hut makes.
Film and television: On television nearly everyone is Chinese and speaks in Chinese. The lead character in Hollywood films is almost always a Chinese man. Whites mostly play supporting characters that are not fleshed out – or worse, are stereotypes that the Chinese have about white people.
Books: Nearly all the books are written in Chinese by the Chinese for the Chinese. Not just novels but books about Europe, cooking, hair care, history, politics and so on. At Barnes & Noble there is one shelf of books in English way in the back near the restrooms: half the books are translations of Chinese bestsellers.
History: At school you mainly just learn Chinese history. Because only Chinese history matters. You are made to learn the famous sayings of the Chinese heroes who took over North America for the greater glory of China. You learn all the great things Chinese scientists and inventors have done.
Shakespeare: You cannot understand Shakespeare in English – because you never studied English at school. Also, your English has too much Chinese slang. You have to read Shakespeare in Chinese, translated by a Chinese professor.
Playboy: Nearly all the women are Chinese. Maxim and Vogue are the same way. Because everyone knows Chinese women are the most desirable, most beautiful women on earth!
White women: Most wear their hair black and straight. Some wear brown contacts to cover their blue eyes. Most white actresses, singers, models and weather girls have undergone eyelid surgery to make their eyes more Chinese-looking and therefore prettier.
Education: Schools are taught in Chinese. When you and other white parents push for early instruction in English, you are told that North America is Chinese now, that white schools are bad because whites are bad students, because white parents do not care about education. Besides, spending more tax money on white students would be a complete waste. Just look at their IQs on tests written in Chinese!
Employment: Whites are the last hired, first fired. Because whites are not as good as the Chinese. Besides, everyone knows how whites do not like to work hard. Just look at their unemployment rate!
Crime: The police are mostly Chinese. They are not serious about fighting crime in your poor white neighbourhood since it is not Chinese people who are getting hurt. Besides, everyone knows how violent white people are. Just look at their crime rate!
See also:
It is sometime in the future. The Chinese have taken over North America..
Given the photograph you provided of Chinese women in bikinis and the short attention of younger White males… I suspect they would stop after the first sentence and give a thumbs up to the notion.
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I get what you are trying to do here.. you have gone over this theme in various ways multiple times… but a more realistic notion would what would happen if the US becomes effectively a Latin country in 100 years.
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The post is not meant as forecast. It is another way of stating the “white privilege mindset” post.
I agree that picture was not a good one. I changed it.
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This exercise doesn’t seem conclusive.
As shown by men and women of african descent who retained a sense of pride despite having everything going against them, and considering the delusional nature of the white supremacist ideology, the odds are that whites would still look down on the asians as inferior creatures despite the evidences of the contrary.
“Chinglish” doesn’t cut it .
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I think this was funny and a good one once again abagond! Thanks.
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Abagond,
A similar place already exists, called “China”.
While commerce and government are understandably dominated by the majority Han, the popular culture is very heavily influenced by westerners, so a clever laowai can carve out tremendous business and social opportunities.
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Wasn’t this supposed to already have happened with the Japanese?
China – Proving once again that slave labor is the key to economic dominance.
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“I get what you are trying to do here.. you have gone over this theme in various ways multiple times… but a more realistic notion would what would happen if the US becomes effectively a Latin country in 100 years.”
Considering the “light is right” mentality that pervades Latin nations, things wouldn’t change much from where they are now.
I’d like to see a version of this post with African Americans as the majority. Unless you’ve already done one.
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Thanks for the post Abagond!
I find it helps shed light on white privilege to do a little role reversal–yours is great! It is very helpful to visualize and empathize with what life without so much institutionalized privileged might be like.
A couple of months back, I did a similar post in a more narrative form (http://bytheirstrangefruit.blogspot.com/2010/07/katelin-in-china.html)
The analogies, by definition, aren’t perfect–but I think the point gets across for both of our posts.
Thanks again for your writing! Will attached to my blog.
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Katelin:
Excellent example. Thank you. This is the same sort of thing except, of course, there is no going back home, no escaping, and it lasts your whole lifetime from the time you were little.
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“It is very helpful to visualize and empathize with what life without so much institutionalized privileged might be like. ”
agreed.
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Randy Garver said:
“Abagond,
A similar place already exists, called “China”.
While commerce and government are understandably dominated by the majority Han, the popular culture is very heavily influenced by westerners, so a clever laowai can carve out tremendous business and social opportunities.”
China is not the same thing, not for white people. Because you can always go back home to America or Europe. Because your culture and history have not been destroyed. Because the West is still strong, so much so China is still taking on Western ways, way more than America is taking on Chinese ways.
But China is such a place for the Uighurs who live in the western province of Xinjiang, once known as East Turkestan when it was still free.
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Uncle Milton said:
“but a more realistic notion would what would happen if the US becomes effectively a Latin country in 100 years.”
That would not have made my point. Whites are on top in most of Latin America. Their difference with White America is mainly one of culture, not race. They are even Western, so the cultural differences are not huge. No worse than it was for the white immigrants who came to America.
Your (white) children or at least grandchildren could become a fully accepted part of the elite if they assimilated. In fact, they would have a better chance than mestizos or blacks or morenas whose families had lived in Latin America for hundreds of years. Not so if the Chinese took over: your grandchildren would never be fully accepted no matter how Chinese they became culturally.
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Do you think white people would continue having families in this environment? Or maybe just “go live in Canada” as the young hippies always profess?
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@ Ames
nah, we’d just curl up into a ball and suck our thumbs.
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Or maybe just “go live in Canada” as the young hippies always profess?
Why do the Yanks always envision going to Canada when the going gets tough? Under this scenario, the Chinese would have already taken over Canada!
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What about Porn? Would the Chinese men still have the smallest weeners? would whites finally past blacks? I hope chinese women still will have the image of being small, tight and screamy, everything else would be weird and backwards.
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“there is no going back home, no escaping, and it lasts your whole lifetime from the time you were little.”
So true! There is a security (and often, therefore, complacency) that follows those in power–such that it is very difficult for someone of privilege to ever really experience the loss of that security blanket. One can always go back to one’s own after patting one’s self on the back for “experiencing what it must be like” once a week at gospel choir rehearsal–hahaha.
It was important for me to emphasize this fact when I first wrote the post. But as I reread it, the point isn’t made until the last paragraph—definite journalism oops on my part. *sighs* Might try to rework that somehow…
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Interesting flip-flop.
For a scenario in which African-descended peoples effectively control not only the United States, but the world (much like White Americans do today, in direct and indirect ways), you should check out Abdourahman Waberi’s ‘In the United States of Africa.’ It’s a fascinating and funny read.
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Asians are under-represented in the NBA. Blacks, as a race, should therefore be taxed until Asians are brought to parity. Blacks should pay for the Asians’ physical training and basketball education until they are equally represented in the NBA. After all, everyone is equal, and black domination of basketball can only be due to black racism and black privilege.
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Except for the fact the that the team owners, and upper-level administration of the NBA is White. The larger percentage of the fan base is White, most of the sports agents are White…
In other words, the people who are formulating what the NBA looks like are White… better tax those guys. Try again.
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“Tax”, Blacks, as a race, because of the NBA? LMAO!!
The twisted, pretzel logic of White grievance politics knows no bounds. Our friend, Dr. Grzlickson, got it so bad he figured s/he’d go for the 2-for-1. You got to admit, throwing “taxes” in with the worn-out Blacks dominate the NBA grievance is a stroke of test-tube-baby genius.
Too bad that genius doesn’t translate into making legit comparisons/analogies but you do have to wonder how long will it take for the Dr. Grzlickson’s of the world to call for women to pay a ‘tax’ for being on the ‘wrong’ side of the gender imbalance at colleges.
The awkward silence on that and the existence of White “only” scholarships makes the subject of “taxes” pretty hard to brouch especially when the history of Black people, e.g., paying taxes during the Jim Crow era alone makes the typical complaints from Whites, etc. seem petty and that’s without mentioning how Blacks, other non-white groups (and women) routinely pay taxes towards policies they don’t support.
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Dr. Grzlickson raises an interesting point. If racism in a field such as engineering can be determined by the numbers, then why not in basketball?
King’s argument can be countered by stating that the management has bought into the institutionalized racism against asians, and are catering to a biased public.
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Not-so-ironically, Dr. Grzlickson’s milk cartoon NBA White grievance complaint, though not intentionally about the “true reverse racism” explored here, really does show a glimpse of how certain people would respond to a systematic change in racial supremacy. It’s clear that quite a few White people and others with a certain affinity for them will be quick to complain and obviously exaggerate when they complain of being wronged or harmed “racially” if for no other reason than this oft displayed childish “get you back” impulse (rash, hurried, rushed and strained impulse) to turn the racial blame game around with themselves are the perceived victims and/or their perceived racial opponents as the oppressor.
If Dr. Grzlickson’s comments are any kind of a guide, people who already complain about affirmative action and have this weird racial anxiety over Blacks dominating the NBA will definitely find it extremely difficult to live in a society where Whites don’t have wholesale social dominance.
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King’s argument can be countered by stating that the management has bought into the institutionalized racism against asians, and are catering to a biased public.
The management is White and the “biased public” is also majority White. They would be “buying into ” an institutionalized racism that they themselves CREATED.
So how would this apply: “Blacks, as a race, should therefore be taxed until Asians are brought to parity?” when Whites are the ones creating the bias and making the hiring choices?
Neither Randy or Grzlickson are thinking this through. In fact the whole statement was crafted, not out of concern for Asians, but rather, as a way of discounting the need for White social reparation by making it seem as if the NBA (which has 82% Black Athletes) is the same thing as White favoring institutions in society at large. The problem is that the NBA itself was created by and is controlled at the top by White people.
Also, even with high salaries for star players, the biggest paychecks in the NBA go to White team owners and investors, NOT Black Athletes. Black basketball players are just contractors who work temporarily for each franchise.
Grzlickson is trying to tax Black people (as a race) for a White created institution, controlled by White people, and in which Whites are the highest paid. Is this surprising?
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Randy: Dr. Grzlickson raises an interesting point.
No, s/he does not.
Randy: If racism in a field such as engineering can be determined by the numbers
That’s your problem. Racism in fields like engineering isn’t determined by the numbers. Once, again, you’re starting off with messed up assumptions you have no reason to assume to be the case.
The link I provided regarding the “awkward silence” when it comes to the attempts to strike gender balance of college campus, to say nothing of the quotas limiting the number of high achieving Asian-American students, make this obvious distinction missing from you inane “determined by the numbers” assumption:
The difference is that boys have never been historically and overtly discriminated against; all affirmative-action policies [whether you agree with them or not] were sanctioned on the argument that a group was not only numerically underrepresented, but had historically been victims of policy-based prejudice.
The point is simply this: racism regarding certain fields was determined by the history of racism in that field which , by definition, shows up in the ‘numbers.’
There has been and, as demonstrated, couldn’t be any black-against-white racism in the NBA, historically or currently, so you and Dr. Grzlickson have no point other than to take things out-of-context and obscure the real issue.
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Randy: King’s argument can be countered by stating that the management has bought into the institutionalized racism against asians, and are catering to a biased public.
Where is the proof of this? Where is the proof that capable NBA-level Asian athletes have been excluded from the NBA? How many Asian athletes entered the NBA draft over, say, the last 10 years?
Seriously, you can’t counter an argument by merely stating made up bs.
Hmmm… Part of the “bias public” has voted Yao Ming as a starter in the upcoming NBA all-star game even though he hasn’t been playing for quite some time due to injury. So where is the institutional racism there?
Also, you can’t counter King’s argument without supporting the actual argument Dr. Grzlickson: that Blacks, as a race, are somehow responsible for Asian being underrepresented in the NBA and, therefore, must be “taxed” for it.
It’s amazing how this typical White blindness works. It’s always a non-white group that gets scapegoated for something White owners/employers are ultimately responsible for.
The mere fact that a group is underrepresented has never been the issue; however, why the group has been underrepresented and continues to be underrepresented is the essence of the issue both you and the Dr. are too dishonest to deal with.
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Dr. Grzlickson does not raise an interesting point. There is no sign he even read the post except for the title. Instead he has moved the thread back to the white Republican idea of what reverse racism is without saying a word about the post.
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Of course, if the Chinese were the overwhelming majority, their culture would dominate. That’d be the natural course of things. And they wouldn’t feel bad about it in the least bit. And why should they? Do conquerers cry over the plight of the conquered?
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“There has been and, as demonstrated, couldn’t be any black-against-white racism in the NBA, historically or currently, so you and Dr. Grzlickson have no point other than to take things out-of-context and obscure the real issue.”
exactly, exactly, exactly.
I don’t remember hearing about any cases where Asians were actively and purposefully barred from entering the NBA by blacks.
But hey, that’s not what’s important right?
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“Of course, if the Chinese were the overwhelming majority, their culture would dominate. That’d be the natural course of things.”
@ Sagat
Define “dominate.” Define “natural course.”
If by “dominate” you mean it would be the most readily visible culture, then yes.
But if you mean that proponents of the Chinese culture would go on to consider their own culture to be demonstrably SUPERIOR and to then be threatened by the idea that other cultures, although not in a period of dominance, may still be esteemed as equally valid, and equally beautiful, then I think that you have managed to miss the entire point of the modern multicultural debate.
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Nquest said: “That’s your problem. Racism in fields like engineering isn’t determined by the numbers. ”
On several occasions, Abagond has cited metrics such as median income to diagnose racism.
The “historical victim” argument for AA is flawed in that it lacks a reasonable mechanism to determine as to when a prior bias has been successfully corrected.
To use the basketball paradigm, imagine that at one time in the past asian players were in fact discriminated against.
Would asians be justified in demanding continuous and ongoing Affirmative Action because they continue to be numerically under-represented in the NBA? Should this go on indefinitely?
Abagond, this may be slightly OT, but I think nonetheless relevant because your scenario raises the question as to under what circumstances a majority can be determined to be discriminating against a minority.
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King,
I don’t believe in cultural relativism. I haven’t missed the point. I don’t agree with it. How can every culture be equally beautiful? Ideas of beauty and validity are subjective, so it’s natural to expect that not every culture will be held in the same light by every person. To say that different cultures are all equal is contradictory. If they were all equal then they wouldn’t be different.
What you might be arguing is that minority cultures should not be actively suppressed, to which I can somewhat agree. But what if a minority culture disrupts the majority culture? Then what? Should a passive majority allow a minority of people to erode their culture? Why should the majority not hold their own culture to be special?
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“I don’t believe in cultural relativism. I haven’t missed the point. I don’t agree with it. How can every culture be equally beautiful? Ideas of beauty and validity are subjective, so it’s natural to expect that not every culture will be held in the same light by every person.”
So you don’t believe in “cultural relativism?”
Each culture cannot be equally beautiful… and because?
Well, because “ideas of beauty and validity are subjective.”
My dear Sagat, that is EXACTLY what cultural relativism IS. You see, if there was a single objective definition of cultural validity and beauty, then each culture would be measured against that single objective standard. Those that came closest to that standard would be more valid and more beautiful. However, cultures that veered furthest from that standard would be the least valid, and least beautiful.
It is the subjective nature of subjectivity that makes equality possible. White culture is not “better” than Brown culture, or Black culture in any universal way, it is just preferred by those who are White (and a few minorities who cling to it)
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“It is the subjective nature of subjectivity that makes equality possible.”
Should read
“It is the subjective nature of culture that makes equality possible.”
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Randy: “On several occasions, Abagond has cited metrics such as median income to diagnose racism.”
Whether Abagond did or didn’t is immaterial here because your assumption was that “racism can be determined by the numbers” or the lack of numbers of a group that’s underrepresented in a given field — Asians in the NBA scenario. Your assumption or the condition you wanted to be the accepted definition for how “racism can be determined” was wrong and I stated how it was. Deal with that or save us all your aimless keystrokes.
___________________________________________
Randy: The “historical victim” argument for AA is flawed in that it lacks a reasonable mechanism to determine as to when a prior bias has been successfully corrected.
Likewise, whether it is or isn’t is immaterial. It’s irrelevant to the issue at hand. The “historical victim argument” is, however, proof that the assumption/condition you want us to accept was flat wrong. You said “IF racism can be determined by the numbers” and I’ve illustrated that that is not how anyone is determining racism when it comes a group being underrepresented in a given field/profession. Members of the group(s) being historically excluded from or discriminated against in the given field is the determination and, hence, the numbers follow. Your logic/argument, however, does not.
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This post made me think of this article, “What if Black Women Were White Women.
Here is the link
http://cocoacure.com/content/feature-what-if-black-women-were-white-women-things-that-make-you-go-hmm%E2%80%A6.html
Sorry for the late contribution to your post, Abagond.
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Jas0nburns: “exactly, exactly, exactly. I don’t remember hearing about any cases where Asians were actively and purposefully barred from entering the NBA by blacks.
Thank you for correcting me. I should have said:
“There has[n’t] been and, as demonstrated, couldn’t be any black-against-Asian (or White) racism in the NBA, historically or currently…” with regards to the group(s) being “underrepresented.”
Anytime Randy or the Dr. want to deal with that, they can be my guest. I don’t, however, hold out much hope as far as Randy is concerned. He’s so far shown no confidence in his original arguments which is why he tries to muddy the waters (or virtually screams “Uncle!”) with other assorted bs.
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Nquest,
You have not connected the existence of prior discrimination with the justification for current remediations, which was the point of my comment.
If you will, refer back to the “asian basketball players” thought experiment. Would the historical existence of anti-asian discrimination in the NBA serve as justification for pro-asian AA in perpetuity? If not, how would such a need be measured?
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Randy, I’m not playing games with you. Your post containing the following appeared more than 30 minutes before my post responding to it:
Randy: Dr. Grzlickson raises an interesting point. If racism in a field such as engineering can be determined by the numbers, then why not in basketball?
So, it is incumbent on you to deal with the error in your logic before you ever say something about what I haven’t done/connected in a subsequent post of yours that tried to change the issue and just so happens to have the same flaw as the initial post of yours had.
First things first, Randy.
You were clearly wrong. Racism in a given field/profession where a group(s) are underrepresented have not been determined merely by the numbers or lack of numbers of the group(s) have in the field/profession.
That bs assumption of yours was wrong.
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Randy: “If you will, refer back to the “asian basketball players” thought experiment.”
No, I will do nothing of the such. You got an argument. Make it. I will not be assisting you in you attempt to make an argument, no matter how mentally challenged or handicapped you are. You will have to make your own argument by yourself.
Would the historical existence of anti-asian discrimination in the NBA serve as justification for pro-asian AA in perpetuity?
That’s not my problem nor is it a thought experiment that’s relevant to the issue at hand. Again, you wanted to claim that “racism can be determined by the numbers…” I told you how you were wrong. Seeing as how you have no counter argument that substantiates your original claim that “racism can be determined by the numbers”… End of discussion.
You keep starting arguments with faulty underlying assumptions that, frankly, are non-starters. And it’s all so boring.
For example, here you are carrying on about this “prior bias” concept of yours as if your own demonstrated bias isn’t proof that the “bias” continues to exist in the here and now and, perhaps, “perpetuity” because some of you guys find it too damn hard to let go.
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Nquest,
I do not personally subscribe to the “bias by broad metrics” diagnosis, but that opinion has been offered by the blog owner.
My question is still unanswered: If you believe that the need for AA or other type of race-based remediation still exists, how should that need be measured?
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Randy: “…that opinion has been offered by the blog owner.”
Again, whether it has and hasn’t remains immaterial. Frankly, it is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
Randy: “My question is still unanswered”
And I’ve told you that you don’t have any such question asking privileges as far as I’m concerned until you demonstrate how AA is “corrosive” and “racist” or “corrosively racist.” Seeing as how you haven’t answered that oft repeated question/request, I’m obliged to reciprocate and keep you on the issue at hand.
Beyond that, your question is still immaterial and irrelevant to the issue at hand. Deal with that or save yourself these aimless keystrokes.
Also, whether I believe that the need for AA still exists is irrelevant. You have to show how “racism can be determined by the numbers” in scenarios like Asians being underrepresented in the NBA. You have not done that even in terms of what Abagond subscribes to (actual evidence/links to what Abagond has said about Blacks, etc. being underrepresented in certain fields/professions are conspicuously absent). And what Abagond subscribes to was not your initial claim, implicit or otherwise.
You were responding to King’s (and perhaps my) post directed at the Dr.’s still unsupported claim that Blacks are somehow responsible for Asians being underrepresented in the NBA. After those posts, you said:
If racism in a field such as engineering can be determined by the numbers, then why not in basketball?
My point, which you really can’t contend with in any honest fashion, is that racism isn’t and, therefore, can’t be determined merely “by the numbers” and, as such, your idiot’s support for the Dr.’s idiotic post suggesting that African-Americans are somehow responsible for Asians being underrepresented in the NBA was always wrong-headed and just plain stupid and unsupportable at every level.
You tried to support the Dr.’s stupid claim, not by showing any discrimination against Asians perpetrated by Blacks or by showing any role Blacks played in causing Asian underrepresentation. Instead you tried to justify the idiotic claim the Dr. made by claiming that “King’s argument can be countered by stating that the management has bought into the institutionalized racism against asians, and are catering to a biased public” again, without any proof/evidence, and, per your usual, totally missing the point that was in contention: that Blacks were, somehow, responsible and therefore to be “taxed” because of it.
You can’t counter anything when you don’t deal squarely with the point of contention. Damn the rabbit holes, Randy. Deal with the issue at hand.
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Note, when you place the following keystrokes on the screen:
If racism in a field such as engineering can be determined by the numbers, then why not in basketball?
You are announcing your support for that kind of thing, whether you’re doing it for the sake of argument or out of your curious form of (demonstrated) racial partisanship. So stop being disingenuous trying to act like you’re talking about what Abagond subscribes to — something that I have no reason to believe you would ever character honestly. Abagond can speak for himself and seeing as how you haven’t quoted/linked to what he has said, you can stop trying to use Abagond as a shield/crutch for your pathetic argument.
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Would asians be justified in demanding continuous and ongoing Affirmative Action because they continue to be numerically under-represented in the NBA? Should this go on indefinitely?
Randy, you are comically obtuse! Why are you using basketball to illustrate your point? Afraid that is all the kneegows will understand? There is no comparison between basketball and centuries of inequalities. As King stated, whites run things in the NBA, so perhaps whites are keeping asians out of the leagues! Why oh why, are they so racist against asians as to exclude them from the NBA, Yow Ming(sic), withstanding?
If you believe that the need for AA or other type of race-based remediation still exists, how should that need be measured?
In your case, I’d flip a coin, heads or tails?
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Herneith: “As King stated, whites run things in the NBA…”
Racial-homer Randy doesn’t care about that. Dr. Grzlickson “raises an interesting point” according to Randy just because the sound of misdirected White racial grievance, angst and anxiety is music to Randy because he’s a White racial-partisan too.
The sh*t doesn’t have to make sense just as long as is stakes out a White racial partisan position.
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Randy: Should this go on indefinitely?
Somebody once said: “A completely non-prejudicial society has probably never existed and probably never will.”
That, my logically challenged friend, is your answer. Since the kind of racism/bias that caused AA to be instituted will, by your suggestion, probably always exist in society, then, going by your estimation alone, AA should go on indefinitely unless you and White racial-homers/partisans like you want to change your mindset.
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Hernieth, I used the basketball thought experiment to illustrate that historical prejudice-based under-representation of an ethnic group in a career can be completely unrelated to present-day under-representation of an ethnic group in a career.
Nquest,
In an attempt to understand a congruent justification for AA, I’m rhetorically conceding a not uncommonly stated belief that metrics such as median income and representation of ethnic groups in various careers are indicative of the presence of racism.
If one justifies AA based upon historical bias, then by what criteria is the validity of ongoing remediation of AA to be judged?
I am genuinely interested to hear opinions about this question.
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King,
“It is the subjective nature of culture that makes equality possible.”
That doesn’t even make sense. Equality means sameness. Cultures can’t be different and equal at the same time. Just because something is qualitatively measured doesn’t mean that the value judgments have no merit. Is a culture where murder and rape are rampant equal to an altruistic culture that treats the lives of others with respect?
If you have a culture that values equal rights for women, how is a culture that treats women as property going to be considered equally valid and equally beautiful? Flowery pronouncements about our supposed sameness does not make it so. Different cultures have different outcomes and that’s something that cultural relativists try to obscure.
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@Randy Garver
You may be blinded by your own inability to see Racism. But surely even you cannot be so blinded to see that you’ve already answered your own question you keep asking?:
If one justifies AA based upon historical bias, then by what criteria is the validity of ongoing remediation of AA to be judged?
As Nquest has already painstakingly pointed out to you yet again:
Are you even blind to your to own words and comments?
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@ Nquest, et al.
I offered a simple “thought exercise” along the same vein as Abagond’s post, both deal in the abstract. Your response is all over the map. I fail to see how my analog of Abagond’s post is so outrageous, apart from the fact that it applies to you.
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Kwamla,
Are you referring to the “non-prejudicial society” comment? I’m simply referring to the inherently non-utopian nature of human social organization. Perfection of any type does not and will not ever exist.
Whether or not various specific inequities become pronounced enough to warrant particular remediation programs and policies is the main subject of my query.
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Randy: “I used the basketball thought experiment to illustrate that historical prejudice-based under-representation of an ethnic group in a career can be completely unrelated to present-day under-representation of an ethnic group in a career”
Stop lying. Neither you nor Dr. Grzlickson demonstrated any such historical prejudice-based under-representation with regards to Asians and the NBA.
Randy: “I’m rhetorically conceding..”
And I am reiterating that you have no recognized question asking privileges when it comes to me. You can’t be bothered with substantiating your claim that affirmative action is “corrosive” and “racist” or “corrosively racist”, so I have no genuine interest in addressing any of your pet-grievances or debating on your convoluted and contorted terms.
And you act like you can’t hear (figuratively speaking):
Nquest to Randy: You keep starting arguments with faulty underlying assumptions that, frankly, are non-starters. And it’s all so boring.
For example, here you are carrying on about this “prior bias” concept of yours as if your own demonstrated [white racial-partisan] bias isn’t proof that the “bias” continues to exist in the here and now and, perhaps, “perpetuity” because some of you guys find it too damn hard to let go.
As the Faulkner quote goes, “the past is [not] dead. It’s not even past.”
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Er…Sagat. Your making value judgments based on your own assumed subjective standards of belief.
Why else would you say:
Equality means sameness. Cultures can’t be different and equal at the same time
You obviously cannot see you are trying to set an objective standard based on your own subjectively accepted beliefs.
In the same way a race of “humanoid beings” could appear on this planet and declare all human beings to be culturally sub-normal and a sub-species of animals.
They too would be entitled to make their own “valid” “value” assessment.
Nothing wrong with making value assessments its just useful to know and recognize what criteria your using to make them.
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Hernieth, I used the basketball thought experiment to illustrate that historical prejudice-based under-representation of an ethnic group in a career can be completely unrelated to present-day under-representation of an ethnic group in a career.
What a load of bull turd! I hate long drawn out convoluted explanations which really say nothing. I prefer short, concise explanations which get to the point, if you indeed have one. Obfuscation just doesn’t cut it. Now, I will say this again in regards to Affirmative Action; Simply put, there is not enough black folk to put a dent in the job and education prospects of whites. If anything, it is white women you have to be worried about as there are more of them. This harping on how blacks are benefiting from Affirmative Action at the expense of whites is so much hot air. Your reasoning is just code for keeping blacks in their ‘place’. You just use bigger words to appear knowledgeable. There is not much difference between you and the garden variety racist, except they will call you a n***er to your face, whilst you do so through baffling folks with bull turd! I prefer the garden variety thank you!
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Dr. Grzlickson: I fail to see how my analog of Abagond’s post is so outrageous
Well, whenever you can provide a legitimate reason you feel Blacks are responsible for the underrepresentation of Asians in the NBA and why “Blacks, as a race” should be “taxed” because of the underrepresentation of Asians in the NBA then you demonstrate how your “analogy” wasn’t outrageous.
Until then, your idiotic “analogy” will be seen for the brand of stupid White racial grievance politics/anxiety that it is.
As King noted, Whites run the NBA as owners/managers. So, for you to point the finger not just at Black players but “Blacks, as a race” because Asians are underrepresented in the NBA is a sure sign of an outrageous degree of anti-black White racial angst you have (or have internalized) because, for some idiotic, ridiculous and unsupportable reason… you want to scapegoat Blacks “as a race” for something Whites, if anyone in the NBA, are responsible for.
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Sagat are you listening to yourself?
“Equality means sameness”
Does anybody think really that? So there is no such thing as different but equal? C’mon… please do better than that.
“Cultures can’t be different and equal at the same time.”
So you can’t have two cultures who do things differently but who are equivalent as societies? Again… are you really serious or is this Candid Internet?
” Is a culture where murder and rape are rampant equal to an altruistic culture that treats the lives of others with respect?
Where in my argument did I say that the societies had to be polar opposites of good and evil? (Which no two societies are) Are you seriously making this argument?
Besides, the point was NOT that every culture at polar ends of any issue are equivalent. The point is that cultures can be equal based on the fact that they individually conform to the needs and expectations of their respective populations.
They can therefore be perceived as equal, based upon that subjective ideal.
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“Er…Sagat. Your making value judgments based on your own assumed subjective standards of belief.”
Indeed, he is.
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@Randy Garver
This strikes me as a really peculiar statement to make:
Perfection of any type does not and will not ever exist.
What qualifies you to know what it would look like if it did exist given your bold declaration that it will never exist?
Its not difficult to see why you can easily make the same statements with regard to the existence of Racism.
Even physics scientists will tell you experiments show the observer can directly influence what they are observing.
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Herneith: “There is not much difference between you and the garden variety racist, except they will call you a n***er to your face, whilst you do so through baffling folks with bull turd!”
Herneith, Randy’s not baffling anyone. All his fluff and stuff has always been see-through.
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I don’t think Whites would want to experience true “reverse racism”. They are having too much fun flipping out at the slightest hint of PoC Pride. Reverse Racism is just a word they like to shout out as a means to play oppression Olympics with Blacks and other minorities. It’d be humorous if it wasn’t so insulting.
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Kwamla: Its not difficult to see why you can easily make the same statements with regard to the existence of Racism.
It’s just the double-speak he has backed himself into using. At every turn, he’s trying to argue that AA shouldn’t be continued because the racism/bias that historically existed no longer exists and, hence, AA is no longer justified. But then, perhaps because it’s one of his go-to cliches, he runs for the “there has always been racism” cop-out to excuse in-action on current day racism/bias and the racism/bias that he feel (based on his experience with White folk?) will exist in the future.
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Herneith said: “There is not much difference between you and the garden variety racist, except they will call you a n***er to your face, whilst you do so through baffling folks with bull turd!”
You’re entitled to your opinion, but it seems rather odd not to recognize the difference between an avowed bigot and a person who advocates treating people the same regardless of ethnicity.
Kwamla,
Discussions about racism tend to roughly differentiate into 2 types of questions:
1. Does it exist? (and if so: who, what, when, where, how, etc.)
2. What should be done about it if/when it presents?
The comment about “perfection” relates to item #1.
When having a reasonable debate about the existence of racism in particular situations, I think it’s more valuable and relevant to attempt to understand biases which may affect broad populations of people rather than focusing on anecdotal stories like “a stranger yelled a slur at me” or “I was robbed by someone from a different ethnicity”.
Even in the most equanimous societies, there will always be occasions where such events will occur, and so their mere existence provides little useful information about the overall state of things.
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Randy: The comment about “perfection” relates to item #1.
That’s not entirely correct. Here is a statement of yours from the thread in question which highlights the context:
The commenter dav pointed out that in the education market, asians have been so successful they’re now actually discriminated against in order to prevent their complete dominance of top university admissions.
So the existence of discrimination/racism against Asian-Americans wasn’t in question. You were, however, trying to backdoor your way into questioning the existence of such racism/discrimination by questioning, ironically, how “encumbering” it is — i.e. since Asian-Americans ‘rise to the top’ even with the existence of admission-limiting quota then such racism is negligible and can hardly be said to exist in any real, tangible sense.
I dare you to apply that minimizing concept to AA as you see it and challenge your own statement calling AA “corrosively racist” based on how “encumbering” AA is supposed to be to whoever you claim it is “racist” against or disadvantages. You would have no [White racial-partisan] grievance against AA if you did.
That aside, you were quick to play the “lack of perfection” card (aka “the racism will always exist” card) when I called you on dismissing/diminishing the importance of the anti-Asian discrimination in college admissions which, again, you yourself wanted to emphasize.
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@Randy
How about we pose those two questions from a slightly different perspective:
1. Racism exists? (and so: who, what, when, where, how, etc.)
2. What should we have done or do about it given that its present?
See what a difference belief or absence of belief can make?
Its plain fully obvious which paradigm you’ve chosen to operate from. Further…because “you believe” there will always be occurrences of racism (you’ve defined it as probably a naturally occurring phenomenon) then AA policies are not really the issue. They are neither “here” or “there” when it comes to tackling this issue. So why even bother with them at all? As you say they can easily end up backing firing when seen from your world view.
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Sorry, but the basketball example is so idiotic that it is hard for me to see it as anything other than an attempt to troll or derail:
1. Whites pretty much own and run the NBA. If anyone is being racist, it is white people, not black people.
2. Unlike most fields, basketball has simple objective measures of who is good and who is not. Owners who think race matters more than such measures will lose games. So it is one of the least racist parts of American society – which is part of why blacks do so well. (Yet despite that it still took the NBA five years to sign its first black player.)
So it is rather odd to pick basketball as a “thought exercise” about reverse racism.
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Just as a reminder it was Randy who said:
“Racism is unquantifiable. When people attempt to prove or disprove it, they’re forced to triangulate an approximation using various metrics, all of which inevitably paint an incomplete picture.”
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There’s no such thing as Reverse Racism. Black racism against whites (if there is any) is still simply called racism. White racism against blacks/non-whites has basically become the definition of racism in America.
Reverse Racism = Opposite of Racism = Equal Opportunity for all Races?
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Kwamla,
The point about the imperfect nature of human relations is not to ignore endemic and systemic bias, but rather to separate actual instances of it from an ever-present “background noise”.
As for what should and what should not be considered “background noise”, that is certainly open to and worthy of debate, and illustrative of the complexity and challenge of such a topic.
Abagond said: “Unlike most fields, basketball has simple objective measures of who is good and who is not. ”
So does the world of academics. The ordering of the median income list parallels the ordering of the educational achievement list, yet many folks on this blog conclude that ethnic differences of income must indicate racism.
Nquest said: “I dare you to apply that minimizing concept to AA as you see it and challenge your own statement calling AA “corrosively racist” based on how “encumbering” AA is supposed to be to whoever you claim it is “racist” against or disadvantages.”
The comment about how “encumbering” potential anti-asian racism might be had to do with the difficulty of actually determining when racial biases are present.
Many people claim that racism exists, but few people can actually quantify it (outside of broad correlations), and when offering a prescription to amend the damage from it, can’t come up with any reasonable methods for determining if the remediations should continue.
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King,
Does anybody think really that? So there is no such thing as different but equal?
Equal means the same. We seem to be using two different definitions of what equal means. I’m using the correct one. Different but equal? There must be a better expression for what you mean.
So you can’t have two cultures who do things differently but who are equivalent as societies?
If they are different, they are not equal. You can say that two cultures have equal worth, but that’s a different statement altogether than simply saying they’re equal. You can also say that two cultures are equally beautiful, but realize that when you make a statement about an subjective quality, then others may disagree and be equally correct. 😉
Where in my argument did I say that the societies had to be polar opposites of good and evil?
I simply used that example to demonstrate the fallacy of your assertion. Whether they are polar opposites or not, the very fact that a culture has a different set of values would make them unequal. There are real world examples of cultures that fit into what I was saying.
The point is that cultures can be equal based on the fact that they individually conform to the needs and expectations of their respective populations.
They can therefore be perceived as equal, based upon that subjective ideal.
Perceived as equal by whom? Whose subjective ideal? This seems to be where you are misunderstanding me, because you have a difficult time accepting that I have a different set of ideals. You seem to be saying that two different cultures can still be the same. I say no. Different yet the same is not logical.
Anyway, we are getting away from the larger point of Abe’s post. His analogy about China taking over the US was supposed to put the idea of White privilege into perspective by showing Whites as the minority. It was to show Whites how it would feel to be in the minority. Being from one of the most minor of minorities, I have little sympathy for that mindset. I think it’s to be expected that the majority culture will hold their views, traditions, and customs to be the norm. I think it’s unrealistic to expect that minority cultures would be held in the same light as the majority.
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“Unlike most fields, basketball has simple objective measures of who is good and who is not.”
Actually, most all fields are objective, you only object when blacks suck at said fields. Hence my very simple example which apparently caused a shitstorm. Difference is, Whites are somehow responsible for your failures and responsible for rectifying your failure. This isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.
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They would have to be Chinese Jews …..
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So where is the affirmative action for whites? Where’s the white race industry calling for yet more privileges and payouts, fully supported by the liberal Chinese cognitive elites? Where’s the ideology of Chinese racial guilt, taught in Chinamerican universities as Gospel truth? Where’s the support for unrestricted nation-destroying immigration of non-Chinese, stemming from the same spiritual source?
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Good post. You left out the conversion of whites from Christianity to Buddhism.
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it’s funny because realistically, if anyone were to really fight white hegemony and fight white privilege, it would be the Chinese.
They seem to be the only ones not affected by colorism and other “isms”.
Everyone else seem to uplift and worship everything white, even pan africans http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/2010/01/whose-zooming-who.html (which btw deserves a separate post).
The Chinese have a strong sense of pride and culture which you need if you want to be on top.
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Randy:The comment about how “encumbering” potential anti-asian racism might be had to do with the difficulty of actually determining when racial biases are present.
You can’t even keep your own sh*t straight. Just like you lied about why you used the “the basketball thought experiment”, you’re being dishonest about the way you employed this odd “encumbering” metrics in terms of racism experienced by Asian-Americans. This is dishonest because here you are adding extra adjectives talking about “potential” anti-Asian racism when, again, you insisted on highlighting what Dav said:
“…asians have been so successful they’re now actually discriminated against in order to prevent their complete dominance of top university admissions.”
There were no caveats (“potential”??) there and not a hint from you that there was somehow some “difficulty of actually determining” when the discrimination against Asian-American college students happened.
Further, this concept of how “encumbering” racism is, by definition, not an issue of the “difficulty of actually determining when racial biases are present.” That’s just not what the term means and its not how you employed it. Stop lying.
You employed the concept in the context that Asian-American represent a model minority not for White folks, etc. claiming AA is “corrosively racist” or somehow disadvantaging Whites though, as you say, “many people [especially you] claim that racism exists, but few people can actually quantify it” but you employed the concept saying the Asian-American example was, in that case, for African-Americans. The example being that whatever barrier racism represents, a group experiencing racism can overcome it or, more precisely, “anyone can achieve similar success if they apply themselves, regardless of whatever barriers [read: racism] may exist.”
Those are you words. These are you words as well (i.e. you response to me saying you view openly accepts racism, against non-whites that is):
It’s not that barriers are acceptable, rather that nobody knows to what extent they may actually exist, and if they do they’re surmountable.
Of course, there, you made the shift to trying to suggest the existence of racism was somehow in doubt but you main point was that whatever racism/barriers a group experience, that racism is “surmountable”, it can be overcome and doesn’t “encumber” them, preventing them from being successful, to wit (i.e. another one of your statements):
While Abagond is correct that asian success does not prove a lack of racism, it does reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this racism can possibly be even if it does exist.
So, no. You comment about how “encumbering” racism iw whether it was anti-Asian American racism or anti-black racism, for that matter, wasn’t about whether there was/is a “difficulty of actually determining when racial biases are present” though you desperately want to claim racism is just too difficult to quantify… No, your comment was to say, as the meaning of the word (“encumbering”) suggests, that whatever racism Asian-American experience, it does stop or hinder them from being successful.
Randy, it’s clear you’re a White racial-partisan but even that doesn’t excuse you lying about what you’re on record saying. Sure, as a White racial-partisan — a White racial-homer who will say anything to support your perceived team (and nothing against your team) — this idea of suggesting racism is difficult to quantify works for you and supports your ultimately goal of scoring a decisive point for your ‘team.’ And, yes, you were busy trying to gain acceptance for that point in the thread in question but, again, the word “encumbering” has a definite meaning and you employed it in a way that makes the claim you just made in this thread a blatant lie.
You’re confusing two separate points of yours and conflating the two. You “baffle” no one with this bs.
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Dr. Grzlickson: “Actually, most all fields are objective
That makes your “thought experiment” even more stupid.
Of course, I figured you’d be too chickensh*t to explain why “Blacks, as a race” are somehow responsible for Asian underrepresentation in the NBA and why “Blacks, as a race” should be “taxed” because of it.
You know that sh*t doesn’t make sense, so you won’t dare try to support your point.
Randy: “So does the world of academics.”
Either White racial-partisans like Dr. Grzlickson and Randy are intellectual-midgets or they purposely make statements with their White race preference in mind.
Achieving in basketball, especially acquiring the skill to maximize the natural talent necessary to make it to the NBA, is remarkably different from “the world of academics” or non-athletic professions. Basketball education, if you will, is exponentially more easy to come by. The kind of academic education necessary for other high pay professions is not and is impacted not only by America’s continuing history of racism but by all kinds of socio-economic factors.
It is much more difficult to nurture academic talent/skill in a “bad” school than it is to develop basketball talent/skill in the same/similar “bad” school.
There is simply no comparison.
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nonserviam: So where is the affirmative action for whites?
Pay attention. We don’t need to use Abagond’s hypothetical to see the White race industry at work.
The White Race Industry (WRI) has long since been at work making bogus cries of “racism” perhaps for as long as there has been opposition to affirmative action which, ironically, they have called “reverse racism” even though they, as Randy Garver says of “many people”, have difficulty quantify this so-called racism.
It’s clear the WRI has been at work when, as I alluded to early, a website can be created, maintained and updated to inform White people not just about “affirmative action” for Whites but about White “only” scholarships which have come about, no doubt, because of the actions or the mentality of the WRI.
It’s clear the WRI has been at work when legacy admissions policies which, by definition, advantage Whites haven’t been subjected to the sanction, scrutiny and stigma affirmative action has.
It’s also clear the WRI has been at work when college admission policies or practices continue to exist that effectively limit the number of Asian/Asian-Americans admitted to top colleges to make sure Whites with lower grades/scores are admitted in sizable numbers.
The White Race Industry was incorporated in this nation at the nation’s founding and has been calling for special privileges and payouts for Whites since Day 1 and has been trying to maintain those special privileges and all the unequal social/economic advantages those privileges helped them to acquire ever since.
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@ nonserviam:
Nquest has it right: white affirmative action ended when the Chinese took over. The point of the post was to show some of the things that whites take for granted, how power or the lack of it shapes experience and viewpoint.
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Nquest,
Your comments are rather byzantine. By strip mining previous comments instead of asking direct questions, you lose context and framing.
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Sagat said:
“Anyway, we are getting away from the larger point of Abe’s post. His analogy about China taking over the US was supposed to put the idea of White privilege into perspective by showing Whites as the minority. It was to show Whites how it would feel to be in the minority.”
Right.
“Being from one of the most minor of minorities, I have little sympathy for that mindset.”
There are different kinds of minorities. The whites in the post have had their culture and history pretty much destroyed. That is way different than coming to America as a voluntary immigrant.
“I think it’s to be expected that the majority culture will hold their views, traditions, and customs to be the norm. I think it’s unrealistic to expect that minority cultures would be held in the same light as the majority.”
But this goes beyond live and let live. White culture is not merely being sidelined in this example – it is being destroyed.
The Chinese are doing that right now to the Uighurs. It was not enough for the Han Chinese to flood Xinjiang province (the country formerly known as East Turkestan) with millions their own: they are tearing down ancient buildings of the Uighurs and making it hard for them to practise their religion and learn their culture.
In the early 1900s whites in America did the same thing to Native Americans, who were not allowed to practise their religion, despite what the constitution says, and had their children taken from them and sent to boarding schools to make them culturally white. This goes beyond mere sidelining to wilful destruction.
Why? Because it is not enough merely to take someone’s land. You must also destroy them either physically (genocide) or break their spirit to rise up against you by destroying their culture, history and sense of who they are. If the Chinese ever took over America this would be done to whites.
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Tulio said:
“You left out the conversion of whites from Christianity to Buddhism.”
Good point: I left out religion.
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Randy Garver said:
“Nquest,
Your comments are rather byzantine. By strip mining previous comments instead of asking direct questions, you lose context and framing.”
I think both Nquest and me see you as not being serious about this because you keep shifting your position. That is why we bring up what you said before. THAT is the context.
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Dr. Grzlickson said:
“Actually, most all fields are objective, you only object when blacks suck at said fields. Hence my very simple example which apparently caused a shitstorm. Difference is, Whites are somehow responsible for your failures and responsible for rectifying your failure. This isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.”
If that is your honest opinion of how American society works then either you are under 30 or you have lived a sheltered life.
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Abagond,
I’ve stated that evidence of discrimination is hard to come by.
Race-based bias in college admissions is a visible counterexample, but that doesn’t negate the general applicability of the original statement.
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Randy: “I’ve stated that evidence of discrimination is hard to come by.”
Which explains why you’ve found it too hard to come up with evidence to explain why you feel affirmative action is “corrosive” and “racist” or “corrosively racist.” We all know you producing evidence of that is hard for you come by.
Randy: Race-based bias in college admissions is a visible counterexample.
You habitually lie because after drawing attention to Dav’s post in the other thread about anti-Asian admission quotas, you went on your merry White racial-partisan way to try to downplay, diminish, if not dismiss such “bias” as being another one of those things that was hard to quantify.
This is a *visible* (lol) example of your inability to discuss/debate things honestly. When you’re not trying to get your bs underlying assumptions or (mis)characterizations of other people’s positions accepted as baseline facts/information (e.g. “IF” big-azz fVckin “IF racism in a field such as engineering can be determined by the numbers…”), you’re lying about things you’ve said and why you said them.
Simply put (mixing metaphors) you can’t debate your way out of a wet paper bag.
Randy: By strip mining previous comments instead of asking direct questions…”
Bullsh*t! If anything I’ve “strip mined” those comments and provided proof of your weasel-like shifting then and now along with your outright lies claiming you said something then that you simply did not.
It’s not my fault that the White racial-partisan in you causes you to be so terribly dishonest.
That aside, it’s time to put up or shut up. You claim (and that’s all it is) that my “strip mining” causes me to “lose context and framing”, well go ahead and demonstrate where I erred in keeping your comments in the proper context.
Wait… that would cause you to have to do more than just make a claim. You’d actually have to provide evidence and/or support your claim, something you’ve shown you’re not ready/capable of doing. That’s why you looking for the debate escape hatch now.
My “strip mining” wasn’t a problem until I caught you in a bold-faced lie. Regardless, my challenge to you still stands:
I dare you to apply[your] minimizing concept to affirmative action (AA) as you see it and challenge your own statement calling AA “corrosively racist” based on how “encumbering” AA is supposed to be to whoever you claim it is “racist” against or disadvantages.”
Now, look at you. Already coping out. Now there’s an exception to the “evidence of discrimination is hard to come by” rule yet you still have not (and I doubt you’ve ever) produced evidence to support your idea that affirmative action is “corrosive” and “racist” or “corrosively racist.”
You simply can’t. You M.O. is to state something as if your statement alone makes it so. Where is the evidence, Randy?
It’s clear that you’re just a run-of-the-mill, garden variety White racial-homer. The positions you take are a function of it up to and including this idea that racism is hard to quantify or to produce evidence of. Your shifting arguments, awkward silence, etc. are proof as well.
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Dr. Grzlickson: “…Difference is, Whites are somehow responsible for your failures…”
Put up or shut up time for you too.
Name a field/profession where Blacks were/are underrepresented in and African-Americans have raised some “objection” to or taken whatever actions to have the underrepresentation addressed that resulted in “Whites, as a race” being exclusively “taxed” for it.
Only a real world example of that happening would justify your idiotic “analogy.”
Hell, you can even use an example from the sports world. When African-Americans brought attention to the lack of Black coaches in the NBA or NFL, when were Whites, as a race, “taxed” exclusively, if EVER, in the efforts to address that lack of representation/underrepresentation?
The answer is never… though this typical display of child-like White racial anxiety is so revealing.
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So, let it be known, Randy Garver is of the position that affirmative action — and anything people feel may constitute anti-white racism — hasn’t and doesn’t hinder White success and, because that’s true, it only reasonable to consider how “encumbering” affirmative action ever was/is to White (for those who make that claim).
So, basically, I believe I’m safe to say that Randy joins me in wondering why White people, e.g., make such a big deal over affirmative action seeing as how Whites still achieve success in colleges and in various careers. Clearly, according to Randy’s logic, White people have nothing to complain about (because nothing can stop/hinder them) until the kind of scenario Abagond talks about re: the hypothetical Chinese social/economic dominance comes to pass.
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To Anon:
They (Chinese) seem to be the only ones not affected by colorism and other “isms”.
No.. not true. Lighter skin is definitely preferred over darker skin, high nose bridges are preferred over flat noses.
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Abagond,
I don’t dispute what you’ve written regarding the Chinese. When I wrote my initial response, I was going along with your analogy and my remarks about conquerors was actually directed at Whites. Yes, Whites were conquerors. What they did to the Indians and Blacks is obviously not admirable.
My point about conquerors not crying over the plight of the conquered was to put into perspective the fact that over the years, Whites have ceded a good portion of the power that they held over minority groups. I think the dispute would be whether or not they’ve ceded enough power. I think that question lies at the heart of many of your posts about racism and White privilege.
You are right that my role as a voluntary minority makes my position different from other minority groups that have had a history of oppression. Regardless of that, I’m still part of a very marginalized group. What it really comes down to is how we decide to deal with that position living as minorities in a White society. How much more should we expect from Whites? Should we expect anything? I think it puts minorities in a position of weakness to hold a view of entitlement. I personally find that philosophy degrading.
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@DarkBeauty:
I like the link you posted – I read it and bookmarked it! :cool
So true, so true…
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Glad to post! 🙂
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Sagat said:
“What it really comes down to is how we decide to deal with that position living as minorities in a White society. How much more should we expect from Whites? Should we expect anything? I think it puts minorities in a position of weakness to hold a view of entitlement. I personally find that philosophy degrading.”
White Americans on the whole are too morally bankrupt to expect anything from them. Going by their past record they are capable of doing the right thing maybe once every hundred years and only then when the country threatens to be torn apart.
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Abagond, correct me if I’m wrong, but was the object of this topic somehow, in someway, a way to tell Whites you feel “entitled” to something?
Sagat, what kind of position does it put so-called minorities in when they/we ignore racism we have experience, in the past and currently, along with social inequities it has and continues to create? What kind of position does it put us in when we do, as you seem to suggest, and just leave unanswered/unaddressed the the myths, lies and commentaries Whites concoct/adopt regarding out experience?
Further, what kind of position does it put us in when we pay taxes in country/society where those myths, lies exist and impact the way we live through the policies the society adopts at every level, local and nationally?
How many people you know on a personal level who have time and money (read: taxes) invested in a project and you view their attempt to have some corrective input in the direction of the project as a “position of weakness”? I suppose they should just allow their investment (taxes) to continue to be used in the project in a manner that goes against what they envision because they have no reason to expect anything different??
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Abagond wrote:
White Americans on the whole are too morally bankrupt to expect anything from them. Going by their past record they are capable of doing the right thing maybe once every hundred years and only then when the country threatens to be torn apart.
I have a tough time understanding your take on this if that’s the way you feel about Whites. What then would your desired goal be regarding America and its future? Would you prefer separation?
After all, as a computer programmer, don’t you work with Whites. Are you employed by Whites? If Whites, as a group are so morally bankrupt, then how do you account for the position that you hold living in a majority White society? If you truly do believe in White privilege and the imbalance of power, then surely you can understand that Whites have within their means the ability to take away the power that they’ve ceded to minorities. What do you think is holding them back? Fear of retribution?
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Sagat: “Whites have within their means the ability to take away the power that they’ve ceded to minorities.
And what power is that? This is interesting, so I’d really like to see you expand on that point.
Also, since you say Whites have this power to, I guess, to take away things, I guess, they have “given”… how do you explain Whites with anti-affirmative action views? What position does it put them in to even talk or argue about it? Is that a position of weakness for them?
I mean, it’s well within their means/ability to take that away, no questions asked, no debate or conversation, right?
And, really… The idea that Black people work with and for White people means what about White people? That they are doing it (having Black co-workers/employees) out of the moral kindness of their hearts?
Really?
The history of race/racism in America makes that the answer to your question?
Seriously, you asked Abagond what he expected about from Whites in a very broad sense. Because of that, your response to his answer is just plain disingenuous when you then try to get all personal or reduce things to a more particular individual level.
You didn’t ask Abagond what he expected from any one of his possible White co-workers or employers and Abagond did, in fact, speak in that same broad sense your original question was asked in. He said: “White Americans on a whole.”
People relate to each other in different ways, on different levels.
What Abagond’s white co-workers or employers think about race/racism, etc. may never enter anything that they do on his job. And, note, your original line of questioning had nothing to do with what Abagond currently thought of Whites.
You asked him: “How muchmore should we expect from Whites”
So, quite naturally, Abagond’s answer was made in that vain. As such, his statement regarding White Americans, generally, being “morally bankrupt” was made in the context of “how much more” to “expect” from them in terms of social change which was decidedly not a question of the moral character of individual white folk in interpersonal relationships with Black/non-white people.
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Abagond,
China is already in charge! China is our banker and overseer……The US government can’t do a damn’ thing without the approval of China. How did China gain so much power? US corporations wanted access to the Chinese market, because it has a population of one billion plus people, Ditto! Bubba, aka Bill Clinton, caved to pressure from corporate america and normalized free-trade with China.
I understand the desire to increase profits, but you can’t get into bed with a regime that forces women to abort girl babies, harvest organs from criminals and activists, and gets into bed with the likes of Iran and Venezuela to name just a few. China didn’t have to become the “800lb Gorilla” that it has become. Richard Nixon opened the door to China without receiving anything in return. China is still a communist country that is controlled by the military.
Trial lawyers and unions have blame as well. Driving up the costs of everything in the country for no rational reason, (Stupidity On Display)SOD. Why manufacture in the US when you can do it China, without all of the bulls**t from lawyers, unions, and politicians, Ditto!?
Abagond, white people are smart, but not as smart as they assume they are. Whites are losing their grip on power in Europe and America, and they have no one to blame but themselves. As for black people, we can’t get caught up in racial politics. As a general rule of thought, I don’t trust non-black men. All of them would slit our throats in a heartbeat. That sounds harsh, but it’s reality. Blackwomen may view the world thru rainbow colored glasses, but blackmen can’t afford to be so gullible and trusting. The Chinese are causing problems in Africa as well.
Tyrone
“Eagles Can See You A Mile Away”
Observe…Listen…Analyze…Remember
Lora Loves You More!
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Re: Sagat’s “position of weakness” remark…
Sagat, when you talk about understanding that “Whites have within their means the ability to take away the power that they’ve ceded to minorities” exactly what kind of position does that put so-called minorities in?
A position of weakness? Power? What?
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abagond
@ nonserviam:
Nquest has it right: white affirmative action ended when the Chinese took over. The point of the post was to show some of the things that whites take for granted, how power or the lack of it shapes experience and viewpoint.
I understand the point of the post very well. But if the whites’ experience in Chinese America is supposed to mirror that of blacks in contemporary America, then the Chinese-instituted system of racial privileges for the white minority cannot be left out.
In reality, of course, Chinese (or anyone else) would do nothing of the sort. It is whites and whites alone who see it fit to institutionalize racial discrimination against themsleves.
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Nquest,
Sagat, when you talk about understanding that “Whites have within their means the ability to take away the power that they’ve ceded to minorities” exactly what kind of position does that put so-called minorities in?
If we acknowledge that Whites oppressed minorities in the past then have to also acknowledge that they have ceased to oppress minorities(at least to the degree that they did before). They have ceded a portion of the power that they once held over minorities.
If Whites maintain a position of privilege then we have to understand that Whites, as the overwhelming majority, still possess the ability to subjugate minorities as they once did. And if they are as morally bankrupt as Abagond states, then we as minorities must be in a dangerous and vulnerable position being surrounded and outnumbered by Whites.
Seriously, you asked Abagond what he expected about from Whites in a very broad sense. Because of that, your response to his answer is just plain disingenuous when you then try to get all personal or reduce things to a more particular individual level.
My point about Abagond working with Whites wasn’t meant to be a statement about his personal relationships with individual Whites. It was to illustrate that he functions within a White society, as do I. We are unavoidably connected to Whites by the very fact that we live in this society.
My question to Abagond was about how he reconciles his views about Whites as a group with the fact that Whites are an essential part of his life.
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Simply put (mixing metaphors) you can’t debate your way out of a wet paper bag.
Responding to Randy and his ilk is like f*rting in a wind tunnel, hahahaha!
I don’t think he knows what the h*ll he’s talking about, it’s as simple as that. Now triangulate the correlation between brain cells and haemorrhoids, upon closer inspection, you will notice that the two are unquantifiable. Now to enhance the epideictic effects of epicrisis, and the subsequent effect on the epididymis, squeeze and yank, the effects are subliminal! In any case, you will have enhanced your epitropic talents or something to that effect!
If that is your honest opinion of how American society works then either you are under 30 or you have lived a sheltered life.
If you consider living in your mother’s basement sheltered, then I guess he lives a sheltered life!
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nonserviam: “whites alone… see it fit to institutionalize racial discrimination against themsleves”
What racial discrimination is that? Where is the tangible evidence of it?
What have Whites lost or been prevented from doing as a result of this supposed racial discrimination?
Facts, figures… evidence, please.
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Sagat, my question was about your view, not Abagond’s, regarding the position your concept of White give-and-take-away power puts so-called minorities in.
Since you characterized Abagond’s position as putting minorities in a position of “weakness”, what position does your view about the power Whites have put minorities in?
If your answer is “a dangerous and vulnerable position” then how do you characterize that kind of thinking? Ultimately, I’m asking how do you characterize your own thinking on in terms of the position your view of the power Whites have, in your view, and the position that power puts minorities in.
You said that it was/is “degrading” and, hence, wrong for minorities to have a “view of entitlement” (whatever that means). I’d like to see how you characterize your own view.
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White Americans on the whole are too morally bankrupt to expect anything from them. Going by their past record they are capable of doing the right thing maybe once every hundred years and only then when the country threatens to be torn apart.
I suppose. Although it sounds like you assume black people would have been much nicer if roles were reversed. Surely you’ve illustrated that the Chinese wouldn’t conduct themselves much differently than Whites have.
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To Nquest:
What racial discrimination is that? Where is the tangible evidence of it?
By definition affirmative action is racial discrimination with the expressed purpose of promoting (some) minorities and women into fields and schools that they previously had little or no access to. The word discriminate is not always negative.. think of the phrase “discriminating tastes…”.
What have Whites lost or been prevented from doing as a result of this supposed racial discrimination?
Almost every White male firefighter I know says it is much harder to become an officer (or even enter the fire department..) than for minorities or women. (And yes I know some of those women are White…)
Of course some Whites are kept our of certain schools, jobs, and contracts… by AA …it’s a zero sum game.
All Whites affected… no… are some Whites affected. Yes.
The question should be does it aversely affect them in the long run?
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To Abagond:
Nquest has it right: white affirmative action ended when the Chinese took over. The point of the post was to show some of the things that whites take for granted, how power or the lack of it shapes experience and viewpoint.
I would agree that the large majority of people who hold power in this country are White. (the current President notwithstanding…) However a fairly large portion of Whites have little power over their lives. As you have pointed out there are more White people in poverty than Blacks. If these Whites had power do you think they would remain in poverty…? This is why I think pressing the cause of White privilege and ignoring class privilege (which often does have a racial component..) will not effect real change.
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U-Milton: “…promoting (some) minorities and women…”
That’s a contradiction in terms, Milton. There is no way affirmative action can be “racial discrimination” when White women are included. White women don’t become less White when they benefit from AA.
Try again.
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Nquest,
You needlessly slaughter pixels by the thousands. Rather than comb previous comments looking for hidden “gotchas”, just present a statement or a question and I’ll answer it.
Or perhaps you could simply state your own opinions to further the discussion.
Your comments have too many mixed contexts and metaphors for me to follow.
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Facts, figures… evidence, please.
That’s funny coming from you, Nquest.
Anyway, have at it:
•In 1989, black applicants who were admitted to selective colleges scored 350 points lower on the SATs than white admittees did.
•In 1996, the University of California at Berkeley Law School accepted every black applicant with an undergraduate GPA of 3.25 and a Law School Admission Test (LSAT) score in the 70th percentile but rejected all white and Asian applicants with the same scores.
•In 2001, the average SAT score of Hispanics who were admitted to UCLA was lower than the average score of whites who were rejected.
•Similarly, for decades the Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) scores of minorities who are admitted to American medical schools have been lower than those of whites who were rejected.
•Blacks and Hispanics receive 80 percent of merit scholarships—that is, scholarships supposedly awarded on the basis of talent rather than need—at the University of Michigan, despite the fact that they have much lower test scores and grades than whites and Asians.
On and on it goes. And not only in the educational system.
Like I said before, the main reason why affirmative action is bad isn’t that it delivers unearned privileges to some groups and unjustly discriminates against others, but that it puts scores of people in positions for which they are unqualified — thus validating and promoting incompetence, harming the functionality of our institutions, destroying the notions of merit and universal standards, and lowering the entire society to a baser level.
What whites have lost or been prevented from doing is the ability, or even the abstract right, to not live in such a society.
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To Tulio:
Good post. You left out the conversion of whites from Christianity to Buddhism.
Modern China currently has about an estimated 80 million Christians… the state is concerned about religion in so as it has been a catalyst for political change. This is where they see the real threat. When Mao took over Buddhism was suppressed or co-opted n favor of Communism. When the Chinese Communists took over Tibet their form of Buddhism was heavily suppressed… so I doubt that there would be forced conversions of Christians to Buddhism so long as the religion is submissive and pliable to the needs of the state.. I would think the Chinese would tolerate it.
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To Nquest:
There is no way affirmative action can be “racial discrimination” when White women are included.
Yes it would be race and gender based discrimination. If you prefer for clarity we could say accurately that it is discrimination on the basis of race and gender… as the term racial or gender discrimination (although technically correct..) has taken on another connotation.
By the very fact that we are discriminating (per Webster’s
the definition is making a distinction..) we are practicing discrimination based upon race and gender.
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Uncle Milton: Almost every White male firefighter I know says it is much harder to become an officer (or even enter the fire department..) than for minorities or women.
That is not evidence of racial discrimination — the mere anecdotal testimony of biased White male firefighters. I’m sure White firefighters in NYC have espoused that view even though there’s a long history of anti-black racial discrimination in the NYC fire department including a 2010 court decision where the judge said the NYFD intentionally discriminated against Blacks and Hispanics.
Uncle Milton: “…it’s a zero sum game.”
Well, with no actual evidence (I said facts, figures, etc. not anecdotes), how can we tell? Also, if the idea of Blacks being employed in jobs in a society where Whites used to have exclusive dibs on the jobs, then no matter how qualified or over-qualified Black folks are it’s still, in your view apparently, going to be a zero sum game, affirmative action or not.
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Uncle Milton: “Yes it would be race and gender based discrimination.”
How can AA benefiting White women be racial and gender discrimination?
Again, White women don’t become less White when they, the major beneficiaries of AA, benefit from AA.
Which begs the question: why is the “gender” aspect an afterthought?
Also, I cited information from Washington state that indicated the beneficiaries of the states’ AA program (for government employees, I presume) benefited primarily White women and also benefited White men (disabled/veteran).
How is that racial discrimination?
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Nonserviam:
Good comment. Thank you. But you left some things out:
1. Admission to a university is not the same as graduation. Once admitted blacks and Latinos still have to take the same tests, do the same coursework, etc.
2. Top American universities also favour whites over Asians.
3. America was hardly a meritocracy before affirmative action. The whole reason for AA was to help counteract the white racism that is built into American society. There never was a golden age that AA destroyed – unless of course you think that only well-to-do whites males matter.
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•In 1989, black applicants who were admitted to selective colleges scored 350 points lower on the SATs than white admittees did.
That doesn’t show any discrimination against Whites. You’ve cited nothing that said Whites were not admitted. No numbers, no nothing. That’s because college admissions isn’t a simple process.
In the 2003 University of Michigan undergrad case that went to the supreme court, there were more than a 1,200 White students who had lower grades/scores than Jennifer Gratz, the white female student who filed the suit, who were admitted. There where 725 or so Blacks with lower grades/scores who were admitted. There were any number of White, Black, Asian, etc. students who scored hire than Gratz who were not admitted.
So where does the concept of “racial discrimination” come from in a case like that? It’s not that Whites were not admitted. They in fact were. Whites with lower scores/grades, in fact, were.
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To Nquest:
Well, with no actual evidence (I said facts, figures, etc. not anecdotes), how can we tell?
I don’t have much time at the moment but I’ll get you data later.. you can respond to nonservium’s data in the meantime.
“how can we tell?”
Well I’ll give you a personal anecdote.. of course you don’t have to believe me.. but that is not my concern. When I tried to become an electrician’s apprentice back in the late 80s (in Seattle…) I went through the interviewing and testing process twice (and made the highest score possible..) the interviewing board said had more experience than the average applicant (because of my work in the military..) but on my second try they came out and stated that they were looking women and ethnic minorities to fill the positions first. I didn’t apply again and opted to go into the IT industry two years later.
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To Nquest:
Which begs the question: why is the “gender” aspect an afterthought?
Because the prime theme on this thread has been about racial discrimination…. you can see other threads where King, Obsidian and I discussed it at length and included the aspects of AA for women. I am under the impression that AA has pretty much been done away at the college level for admissions in favor of women. (I am sure there are exceptions…)
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@ Sagat:
I said that White Americans ON THE WHOLE were morally bankrupt. That does not mean that every single white person is some kind of racist jerk just waiting to screw over any and every black person. It means that whites AS A WHOLE are going to oppose moves to make American society more just until they are pretty much forced to to keep the country from being torn apart. Like in the civil war and the civil rights movement.
And, yes, whites can and sometimes do take back the power they have ceded, like with Jim Crow laws and all those broken Indian treaties.
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Abagond,
You misunderstood my statement. Look up above to what I explained to Nquest. Hopefully, that will clarify what I was trying to say.
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Uncle Milton: they came out and stated that they were looking women and ethnic minorities to fill the positions first.
And who was hired to those positions and how do you know what were their qualifications and if they “average” or above average applicants?
How many jobs did Whites already have at the company for the company to state, explicitly, that they were looking for women — which includes White women in this thread that’s about “racial” discrimination — and ethnic minorities? Some companies because of there history have been mandated by the court to hire more than just White men.
Complying with a court injunction or coming into compliance with affirmative action law is not racial discrimination. The company practice that made it necessary, no doubt, was.
Those are two different things. Whites don’t have a guaranteed right to 100% of all the jobs and college admissions seats.
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Uncle Milton: I am under the impression that AA has pretty much been done away at the college level for admissions in favor of women.
And I’m well aware of colleges have been attempting to ensure a gender balance admitting more lower scoring [white] male applicants so that the campus isn’t filled with only or predominantly women. Yet, there is no “that’s [racial] discrimination against [white] women” outrage because of this ongoing, explicit practice.
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To Nquest:
Complying with a court injunction or coming into compliance with affirmative action law is not racial discrimination. The company practice that made it necessary, no doubt, was.
It wasn’t a company, it was the IBEW. I do not know if there was a court injunction. I do know they had strong goals to raise the number of non-White male electricians. Basically one of the members later told me that even though I had an excellent score on the test that I shouldn’t wait around. I asked him if this meant that people with lower scores and less experience would be chosen over me. He said.. “well yeah, sorry..” That’s why I never bothered to apply again. Do I have their exact data..? No.. it would likely have required a court order.
I know a bit about the city of San Francisco fire department…. which came under a consent decree about a decade before I was taking tests to try to become a firefighter… in that case they were very specific about which gender and races they wanted. When I took the test I was informed that the number one candidates they were looking for were Asian women. So in that case it obviously wasn’t about … not having enough Blacks versus Whites.
You can look at the aftermath of AA being struck down in University admissions in California and Texas… in the case of the later White admissions went up .. but Asian admissions went up even more. (at the expense of Blacks and Latinos..) In Texas White admissions went up versus a minor reduction for Latinos (around 5%) and a pretty major reduction for Blacks (around 33%)
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To Nquest:
And I’m well aware of colleges have been attempting to ensure a gender balance admitting more lower scoring [white] male applicants so that the campus isn’t filled with only or predominantly women. Yet, there is no “that’s [racial] discrimination against [white] women” outrage because of this ongoing, explicit practice.
It’s all men isn’t it…. ? Of course White guys are the most populous so one would conclude it would the most numbers. Well I’ll ask you … how wide spread is it..? What are the numbers…? What are the SAT or GPA gaps..? Personally I think it’s stupid to tilt the favor towards men.
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Randy: Rather than comb previous comments looking for hidden “gotchas”, just present a statement or a question and I’ll answer it.
No. Won’t be doing that. As long as you see fit to lie, I will find the “hidden [in plain link sight] gotchas” that contradict your lies. And, really, this “please don’t hold my words against me” request of yours is an attempt to limit what statements/questions I can present to you. Surely, I can have questions or make a statement about something you say now, in this current thread, that comes to mind because, unfortunately for you, I remember what you said before.
I can’t help it if you keep shifting and have a faulty memory.
I also can’t help it if you act like you don’t understand what it means for you to have no question asking privileges with me. But since I’m an obliger, don’t get mad because I answered your question — a question that was clearly, purposely avoiding the actual point of contention at the time — by throwing some of your own bs back at you. I can’t help it if you views in one place complicate or contradict the stuff you say in others.
Likewise, I can’t help it when you choose to lie (to Herneith) and say you used the NBA analogy for a reason that you clearly didn’t. The fact that you are dishonest or have a problem with being consistent (and honest) is your problem, not mine.
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@ Abagond
Rich inheritance entitled White assholes run this country and make policy. No argument there. They are the only people I genuinely despise. Yet they are less than 1% of the population. You do nobody any favors by antagonizing the White working class, which has no power.
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Uncle Milton: Well I’ll ask you … how wide spread is it..? What are the numbers…? What are the SAT or GPA gaps..? Personally I think it’s stupid to tilt the favor towards men.
All I have to go on are the few periodic articles I’ve come across since I became aware of the phenomenon. I imagine there is/was much more debate and information at colleges but the discussion in the general public, in newspaper, etc., is few and far between. Don’t know if I ever seen anything on TV about it.
Anyway, this was one of the first articles I became aware of:
I tried to research it online since then and came across college newspaper or other articles like the NYT link but nothing that really gave me a sense of how widespread it is or isn’t.
That aside, I appreciate your stories and while I’m an against opponents of AA, I’m sensitive to what you’re trying to communicate and what you’ve experienced. Really, its a shame the situation places people (Black, White, etc.) in.
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Dr. Grzlickson: “You do nobody any favors by antagonizing the White working class, which has no power.”
I’m calling bs on that. The White working class always has had a choice whether they go along with the racist scapegoating I suppose you can say the rich 1% propagates. The White working class has a choice not to use their voting power to elect politicians who support policies that negatively impact African-Americans, Hispanics, etc.
The White working class also has the choice and power to make an issue like so-called illegal immigration about the employers but, apparently, the White working class, generally, does what it has always done and that’s side with the ruling elites and scapegoat whichever non-white (or non-heterosexual) group that’s drawing attention at the moment.
So, no. The White working class won’t be left off the hook.
The White working class had every reason to join Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and his Poor People’s Campaign but they didn’t. The White working class even had reason to support Jesse Jackson when he ran for president and/or insist that candidates make Appalachia as big of a priority as he did but…
The White working class has every reason to not make ridiculous NBA “analogies” which “don’t do anybody any favors”, much less make an accurate or honest point but…
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Uncle Milton, here’s an article I guess I saw in the past that list a number of colleges that admit students with “gender balance” in mind:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/articles/070617/25gender.htm
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To Nquest:
Uncle Milton, here’s an article I guess I saw in the past that list a number of colleges that admit students with “gender balance” in mind:
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/articles/070617/25gender.htm
I see some are public (Georgia State and UT Dallas…) which I find to be pretty problematic since tax dollars are at work. (In theory, a private school could admit whoever they wanted but it becomes politicized at the very high end institutions like Harvard and Yale and some government money invariably is supporting all private colleges…) I understand the morality behind trying to cut a break for people who were historically discriminated against… but I don’t think colleges should play with the numbers for White guys just because not as many are attending school as women. I think it would be better to find out why men are attending college at lower rates. If guys didn’t do well in high school they should start out at community college, keep their grades up and transfer to a 4 year school. (which one can do even at the prestigious UC Berkeley..) They would also save money doing this and not be thrown into huge lecture halls their first two years which are often taught by TAs.
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Nquest,
Perhaps you’re not grasping the nuance of the basketball thought experiment as related to Herneith. So far I haven’t seen a real answer yet.
Abagond and others have diagnosed present-day racism based upon a prior history of it combined with performance metrics such as median income and academic achievement. These metrics also serve as the justification for ongoing anti-racism remediation policies such as AA.
I theorize that the lower median income (black v. white) can have a different cause today than it did during slavery or jim crow.
The thought experiment goes like this:
Imagine if asians were discriminated against in the past, and prohibited from playing in the NBA. One could accurately cite racism as the cause of a lack of representation of asians.
At a point some years ago, these restrictions are removed. Fast forward to today, and there are still few asians in the NBA. Would it be accurate to assign racism as the cause of the current under-representation of asian players?
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@abagond:
Admission to a university is not the same as graduation. Once admitted blacks and Latinos still have to take the same tests, do the same coursework, etc.
The validation and spreading of inadequacy is not confined to the educational sphere. It permeats and corrupts the society as a whole.
America was hardly a meritocracy before affirmative action. The whole reason for AA was to help counteract the white racism that is built into American society. There never was a golden age that AA destroyed
What AA destroyed, was a possibility of a true meritocracy arising with the demise of anti-black discrimination. It seemed for a moment, in the late ’50s-early ’60s, that whites and blacks might arrive at some mode of civilized co-existence. But the system of mandatory racial privileges has effectively frozen the old resentments in place (in addition to all the other ills it brought).
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Randy: “Perhaps you’re not grasping the nuance of the basketball thought experiment…”
Since you and the Dr. haven’t explained how “Black, as a race” are somehow responsible for Asian underrepresentation in the NBA that’s run by White owners/managers and how “Black, as a race” should/must be “taxed” for Asian underrepresentation in the that same NBA run by Whites… there is no conversation for me and you to have.
Likewise, you have absolutely no question asking privileges as far as I’m concerned on this topic, especially, because you refuse to address that actual point of contention which is not your weird restated/rephrased question about some bs hypothetical.
What part of “make your argument” don’t you understand? It is not my job to advance your argument for you. Plus, I’ve already answered your question… (when I threw your own words back in your face).
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Rich inheritance entitled White assholes run this country and make policy. No argument there. They are the only people I genuinely despise. Yet they are less than 1% of the population. You do nobody any favors by antagonizing the White working class, which has no power.
The ruling elites are the ones maintaining and protecting the race-preferences regime that antagonizes — and harms — the white working (and most of the middle) class. While they may partially buy into their own bullshit, the real goal of that is to make the middle class as politically weak as possible.
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nonserviam: “What AA destroyed, was a possibility of a true meritocracy…”
Bullsh*t and you know it’s bs. But it’s funny how that phony azz class solidarity rhetoric fades all so quickly… And that’s exactly why this is such unmitigated bs.
The ruling elites continue to get over on the White working class and racial minorities alike. Read up on “The Price of Admission” or critically investigate the Hopwood affirmative action case in Texas where they realized it was more affluent whites who were being admitted in numbers that squeezed out Whites from the working class.
The Hopwood case challenged the admission of 62 of the 93 black and Latino students accepted into the Texas law school in 1992. But that year, when the Texas law school rejected Ms. Hopwood, more than 100 white students were admitted who had lower test scores and grade point averages than she did.
Had opponents of affirmative action looked beyond race to see why Ms. Hopwood was not admitted, they would have discovered that she lost points because she went to a community college and a state university. The University of Texas penalized Ms. Hopwood, who grew up under difficult circumstances and worked her way through school, because she graduated from a less competitive but more affordable college.
http://www.fullerton.edu/affirmativeaction/AAnews/Guinier.htm
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@ Nquest
Pull your head out of your ass. I posed a very simple counterpoint to Abagond’s similarly simplistic example. You are purposefully obfuscating , with walls of text, the very clear point I was trying to make. Namely: it is not White peoples’ responsibility to ensure that blacks are equally represented in every (read: most) fields in which blacks fail to thrive.
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“It seemed for a moment, in the late ’50s-early ’60s, that whites and blacks might arrive at some mode of civilized co-existence.”
Who the f-ck are you, Haley Barbour??
“Civilized” co-existence in the 50’s and 60’s??
Un-freakin’-believable!!!
And that was late 50’s and early 60’s before the White Supremacy regime of Jim Crow was dismantled.
Of course, you know your framing, beyond being un-freakin’-believable in its lack of historical/factual context, suggests that prior to the 50’s, whites and blacks somehow just couldn’t arrive at “some mode of civilized co-existence” like “whites and blacks” were equally fault.
Also, this idea of placing blame of AA instead of the dogs and firehoses and all modes of White backlash and resistance to the change from the Jim Crow White Supremacy regime via desegregation in public accommodations, the Voting Rights Act, etc. when AA came after all that… well, it just shows your White racial-partisan colors (and selective blindness/memory) as bright as ever.
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Dr. You are purposefully obfuscating….
No. Not I. You are purposefully not dealing with the jacked up bs you call an “analogy.” But I’ll just take the fact that you couldn’t make a legitimate analogy as a sign that the point you wanted to make out of it is not legit either.
You were the one who chose the analogy. It was on you to make a fitting one.
You thought that NBA sh*t was cute and the “tax” sh*t was clever but now you’re crying because I’ve challenged you to show how “White, as a race” are “taxed” when Blacks cite America’s racist history/present as factors for Black underrepresentation in fields.
I even gave you a chance to show that you White racial grievances were legit. But, noooooooooo. You couldn’t show how “Whites, as a race” were “taxed” (THAT WAS THE SH*T YOU CHOSE TO SAY) or otherwise held responsible, again, “as a race” for Black underrepresentation in the NBA/NFL coaching ranks.
Re: supposed Black failure… What are Tony Dungy and Mike Tomlin examples of as Black coaches in the NFL? Failures? Or examples of what the old order in the NFL (where almost all the coaches were White) prevented?
Don’t get mad and claim I’m “obfuscating” because my point makes a mockery of yours.
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Uncle Milton: “I see some are public (Georgia State and UT Dallas…) which I find to be pretty problematic since tax dollars are at work.”
If tax dollars are the consideration then what’s the problem with affirmative action in admissions, even AA as perceived as helping lesser qualified Blacks/minorities?
Taxes are no respecter of person, Black, White or otherwise.
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Dr. Grzlickson: “Asians are under-represented in the NBA. Blacks, as a race, should therefore be taxed until Asians are brought to parity…”
Excuse me, but the NBA you apparently were talking about was not the National BLACK Association. You were talking about the Commissioner David Stern basketball league. So forgive me for not seeing the first thing that was remotely analogous to the subject matter you want to (mis)direct your White racial grievances/anxiety towards.
You might be confused but I’m not. I know how to tell rotten apples from oranges.
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Speaking of clever, in the NFL example that I mentioned where Tony Dungy was, perhaps, the start of the current crop of Black coach hires in the NFL… Who was responsible for qualified Black head coach candidates not being considered prior to Dungy’s hiring?
Whose responsibility was it to address the obviously flawed (given the success of Dungy and Tomlin) coach hiring process?
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To Nquest:
As I indicated on another thread… I understand the morality of allowing affirmative action for people whose ancestors were slaves. I actually tend to favor it for correctional jobs such as police officers. But as you may have read at high end institutions like Harvard… the majority of Black students are from Africa, the Caribbean, or have a White parent like Harvard grad Obama basically for the purpose of diversity. (I was trying to find a link for that…) I would prefer bringing the standards of grammar and secondary schools up to a point that there is an ample supply of all parties to choose from.
Then moving away from the binary world we have this:
http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=303:even-after-proposition-209-uc-admissions-remain-controversial-&catid=34:academia&Itemid=56
“Stanley Park felt as if the University of California, Los Angeles, had revamped its admissions criteria just for him. UCLA was looking for students who had overcome “life challenges,” such as family illness, being raised by a single parent or being the first in the family to go to college.
After Mr. Park’s parents, Korean immigrants of modest means, divorced three years ago, he lived with his mother. When she developed breast cancer, he began tutoring children to help pay the rent. Despite his work commitment, he scored an impressive 1500 out of 1600 on his SAT college-admissions exam.
UCLA and the state university’s other elite campus, Berkeley, both rejected Mr. Park.”
vs.
“Blanca Martinez also grew up in a working-class immigrant family, and also helped support it when her mother had breast cancer. Her SAT score, though, was 390 points below Mr. Park’s. Both Berkeley and UCLA admitted her.”
390 points on the SAT is a pretty damn big spread. Both went through similar circumstances and come from immigrant families. As Abagond had pointed out, Koreans tend to make less money per capita than Whites and not substantially more than Latinos. Conceivably Carlos Slim’s (the richest man in Mexico and probably the world) children would be eligible for an affirmative action boost since they are Latino. (Probably should neglect to mention their father’s wealth..) The situation of awarding some immigrant groups substantial benefits based just upon diversity smacks of mission creep.as would giving a boost to men in college admissions. I guess that didn’t help Mr. Park.
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To Nquest:
If tax dollars are the consideration then what’s the problem with affirmative action in admissions, even AA as perceived as helping lesser qualified Blacks/minorities?
I’ll give another example of what I consider mission creep. As I indicated a number of years ago I took the test for SF Fire Department. A blue collar job to be sure but one that has a great reputation (and very good pay and benefits..) so that they always had many more applicants than positions. Given the number of slots available for White guys vs. White male applicants.. the numbers they were hiring from that group were rather low. The number one group there were seeking wasn’t Black male or female. The Black population of San Francisco declined markedly from the 60s to the 90s such that various racial goals for hiring were almost met by the time I took the test. The group that they wanted the most and was considered the most under represented were Asian women. As the Black population had declined the Asian had grown markedly such that Asians especially women were considered rather under represented n the fire department as a percentage of their SF population. So they were actually privileging Asian women over every other group. As it stands a very high percentage of the women they admitted, a few years later were actually not fighting fires. (Although they were still used in recruitment posters…) Most had been given desk jobs of some sort. There is one notable exception… a woman who had spent 8 years in the marines and worked out on average two hours a day.
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Uncle Milton, I haven’t read your article but I wonder if the admissions officers actually thoroughly reviewed Park’s application and considered his family situation where the “mission creep” may have made them more apt to consider it in Martinez’ case.
Looking at it that way (i.e. all the factors considered in admissions and the sure volume of applications), I’m not sure there are any hard and fast conclusions that can be made. And with the court decisions that have been made on AA up to and including the states like Texas that have implemented different admissions system… I have an even greater sense that opponents of AA outrage is grossly out of proportion with what they object to especially given all the non-merit based considerations that overwhelmingly advantages Whites (like legacy admissions).
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Conceivably Carlos Slim’s (the richest man in Mexico and probably the world) children would be eligible for an affirmative action boost since they are Latino.
The problem I have with that, besides being overly speculative (by now there should be plenty of example of wealthy/famous non-whites whose children seek admissions), wealthy Whites are admitted via legacies at rates higher than AA and general admission and the fact that they are admitted “ahead” of students who are both smarter and demonstrate more financial need isn’t on the national discussion radar.
That’s why I’m against opponents of AA. On some levels, I ambivalent on the subject of AA and I don’t think test scores are the end all be all either.
Like Abagond noted, there is and never has been a meritocracy in America. In fact, I read that Berkeley vowed to make some 40% to 50% of their admissions based strictly on academic merit after apologizing for its practice of limiting Asians. So, if that is in any way remotely representative of most colleges, the whole AA debate is a crock to begin with.
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Uncle Milton: “Most had been given desk jobs of some sort.”
We could be all day, 365 trading anecdotes. I went through a police academy where a Black female who failed one of the mandatory sections had to go home while a White female who failed a mandatory but was allowed to graduate due to well known, ranking family member but when she started work in the field she was forced to quit because she refused to do the work. I know of other stories of White women (and men) doing the desk job thing too. I’ve heard about more that happened before I was around. One of the highest positions in the department was filled by appointment and went to someone with absolutely no experience with the department and definitely less experience and academic qualifications as his/her immediate subordinates a few of whom were minorities who didn’t get a chance to get the internal promotion that Whites who moved up the ranks did and were “appointed” to the high ranking position.
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To Nquest:
In fact, I read that Berkeley vowed to make some 40% to 50% of their admissions based strictly on academic merit after apologizing for its practice of limiting Asians.
They were supposed to make their admissions based strictly on academic merit after prop 209 was passed. The awareness of Asians being limited at certain institutions became widespread after 209 was implemented in 1999. (It passed in 96 but was upheld by a Federal judge. Admissions for Whites went up somewhat throughout the state, but went up markedly at UC Berkeley… one of the favored academic institutions for Asians in California. That’s my point about the comparison between Blanca Martinez and Stanley Park. Asians were losing out heavily to Latinos because the former is dramatically over represented and the latter is rather under represented in California. It’s no longer a Black/Whte thing. I fell we should be looking at why Latinos under perform in high school as opposed to lowering the bar so much.
It looks like the UC system vowed to just use meritocracy for most cases but dropped it after one year when they didn’t get the results they wanted:
“The University of California used to seek diversity through affirmative action, but the political and legal winds shifted. In 1995, the board of regents said academic merit alone must determine admission of half to three-quarters of freshmen, a rule since dropped. In 1996, the voter initiative barred preferences. Federal courts have also been grappling with the issues, with mixed outcomes: voiding race-based admissions in Texas and Georgia but giving support to them in Michigan and Washington state.
In recent years, state universities in Texas, Florida and California have also sought diversity by guaranteeing a place for all students who rank near the head of their high-school classes. That has ensured slots for top students at heavily minority schools while reducing the impact of standardized tests, on which black and Hispanic students often lag. At UCLA last fall, the average SAT score of Hispanics who got in was 1168. That was below the average score for Asians and non-Hispanic whites who didn’t get in, 1174 and 1209 respectively. (Accepted whites scored an average 1355, and accepted Asians 1344.)”
http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=303:even-after-proposition-209-uc-admissions-remain-controversial-&catid=34:academia&Itemid=56
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To Nquest:
Re: Legacy students.
They are relegated to private institutions are they not..? And a potential legacy student can only attend a score where their mother or father attended correct..? EG if mom and dad went to Princeton… that doesn’t mean squat to Harvard or Yale?
Well they are private… they admit African students to fulfill their goals for Blacks (which penalizes Black Americans..) and then they apparently have a number of biracial students who are considered Black. Their prerogative.
At one level the legacy thing seems stupid.. I suppose it’s basically a solicitation for a bribe. I think even more ridiculous are the boosts for recruited athletes. These are supposed to be high powered intellectual institutions. I mean some of these athletes are people who play lacrosse or water polo…. WTF..? That’s a better boost than being Latino… Jeesh.
For reference the claimed numbers for certain classes of students:
Blacks: +230
Hispanics: +185
Asians: –50
Recruited athletes: +200
Legacies (children of alumni): +160
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences
As for Legacies and outrage..? It affects a rarefied segment of society… Joe Six Pack knows that his son and daughter aren’t going to Harvard or Yale…he’s hoping they’ll be going to local state school… and get a degree that will get his kids a decent job… even with tuition assistance – Harvard can cost 15k a year (Without it 50k..) So basically I don’t think it’s even part of the equation. There has always been some resentment among the working and middle class Whites towards upper class Whites. The Legacy stuff is just another thing to throw on the pile.
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They are relegated to private institutions are they not..?
No, I really don’t think so. Plus, I’ve lived in two public college towns in the past 25 years. Take this for example:
At Texas A&M, 321 of the legacy admits in 2002 were white, while only 3 were black, and 25 were Hispanic.
The article goes on to say that Texas A&M and some other colleges dropped legacies (a lot of public universities named) but legacies were not then or now limited to private schools. And, note, legacies were hardly dropped under the pressure of anti-AA forces. At the time, proponents of AA pushed politicians, universities, etc. who routinely had to voice their opinion on AA to also address legacies.
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2009 abstract of an entry in the Santa Clara Law Review:
No Distinctions Except Those Which Merit Originates: The Unlawfulness of Legacy Preferences in Public and Private Universities
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1299224
So, now, you can see why I’m against opponents of AA… For years the national debate was only pro/con AA with the opponents of AA even defending legacies and other preferences. So, for a lot of them, it was only about AA and most of them completely racialized their complaints and that’s the way it was for decades until the AA debates of the late 90’s and early 2000’s resulted in traditional AA supporters and others broadening the debate.
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They were supposed to make their admissions based strictly on academic merit after prop 209 was passed.
I’m pretty sure the 50% merit-based promised was, in fact, the response to the findings regarding anti-Asian quotas.
“…UC Berkeley has apologized to the Asian community for their past admissions practices and has proposed a change in admission policies under which 50 percent of their student body – not 40 percent – will be admitted on academic merit.”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lecture/College-Admission-Quotas-Against-Asian-Americans-Why-Is-the-Civil-Rights-Community-Silent
So, again, I say, the whole conversation, based on the meritocracy myth, is a crock. Nobody really knows what factors into the admissions logic at colleges and schools have never revealed the reasons for 100% of each individual admit. And I find it hard to believe that UC Berkeley is the only school like that especially once you start counting all the athletic scholarships and admissions based on influence (not-so-smart-kids of donors at every schools), etc.
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Nquest said : “Since you and the Dr. haven’t explained how “Black, as a race” are somehow responsible for Asian underrepresentation in the NBA that’s run by White owners/managers and how “Black, as a race” should/must be “taxed” for Asian underrepresentation in the that same NBA run by Whites… there is no conversation for me and you to have.”
I didn’t mention anything about taxes. The question remains unanswered.
Here it is again:
Imagine if asians were discriminated against in the past, and prohibited from playing in the NBA. One could accurately cite racism as the cause of a lack of representation of asians.
At a point some years ago, these restrictions are removed. Fast forward to today, and there are still few asians in the NBA. Would it be accurate to assign racism as the cause of the current under-representation of asian players?
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Your question was answered, Randy. Just not the way you wanted it to be. And that’s even after I told you that you have NO questions asking privileges with me because you are in question answering arrears with me.
I don’t play games, Randy, and there is no White privilege or any other privilege that I am bound to honor whereby you ask me questions that I answer while you get to play chickensh*t and won’t answer mine.
So, I can cut and paste your stupid question for you and it will remain unanswered until the cows come home.
At a point some years ago, these restrictions are removed.
There you go again with another assumption that is a non-starter. If you can’t deal with a real-life situation and be honest about all the aspects involved and stop speaking in the abstract as a way to avoid dealing with specific facts that complicate this simplistic “restrictions removed” bs, then there is no conversation to be had.
Simply put, the vague, abstract outline of the Asian/NBA “analogy” fails to be analogous to anything in real life and you are making any connections.
You want me to make your argument for you and that I will not do. Make your own argument. Don’t ask me to help you do it for you.
The fact that you insist on begging me to help you is, to me, a clear sign of your tremendous lack of confidence in your own argument and its merits when applied direct to every specific aspect of the real life thing you want to object to.
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I meant to say “you (Randy) are NOT making any connections [between the supposed analogy and the real life situations]. You haven’t shown, much less proven, how the Asian/NBA situation is analogous.
And it’s far too late to play the “I didn’t say anything about taxes” game when you voiced unqualified support for the Dr.’s post that included the idiotic tax idea. You want to shift position (which seems to be a pattern with you) to something else and not answer for what you originally supported/espoused. I am not obliged to answer anything you say/ask when you play games like that.
Once you lose, Randy, as you did with your original approach here, the argument is over with me. The rest is just me slapping you around for being stupid enough to take the approach you first took. No do-overs here, Randy and I’m not “imagining” anything just to help you make your argument.
Again, if you got an argument, make it.
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Randy, Is your point that Asians are on average shorter than blacks so it’s ridiculous to say that racism (in your scenario) is to blame when it’s obviously genetics?
The correlation between height and success in basketball isn’t analogous to race and success in life.
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White male firefighters sure it’s hard for them as most can’t read or write too well can they and they don’t have much sense. After all anyone with halve a brain would not have rushed into the twin towers!!! I don’t quite understand why blacks want to be a person who sprays water on a fire for a living!!
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Does somebody know how many AFRICAN-AMERICAN medical doctors are produced each year in the USA?
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isn’t the NBA merely a plantation by any other name!!
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“After all anyone with halve a brain would not have rushed into the twin towers!!!”
Based on that analysis, there were also Black firefighter with “halve a brain” who went rushing into the twin towers to try and get everyone out.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3911570
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jas0nburns “Randy, Is your point that Asians are on average shorter than blacks so it’s ridiculous to say that racism (in your scenario) is to blame when it’s obviously genetics?”
Not exactly. The point is that modern day under-representation of an ethnic group in a given field cannot be automatically assumed to be caused by racism, even if racism caused under-representation in the past.
Does anyone think that asians aren’t prevalent in the NBA due to historical discrimination? Of course not.
Then why do so many people automatically assume the opposite conclusion for other groups and other fields, such black folks in engineering and software development?
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“Does anyone think that asians aren’t prevalent in the NBA due to historical discrimination? Of course not.
Then why do so many people automatically assume the opposite conclusion for other groups and other fields, such black folks in engineering and software development?”
wow.
Nobody’s automatically assuming anything. There is a clear record of discrimination against blacks in those fields just as in every other aspect of society.
Is there a record of discrimination against Asians in the NBA? I don’t think so.
I think that Abagond mentioned this already but if anything the NBA is a clear example of how discrimination keeps groups from succeeding. I mean think about it. We didn’t allow blacks to play in the NBA until 1950!! That’s only 61 years ago dude. And that was frigging basketball! it took us that long just to acknowledge that black people could PLAY BASKETBALL WITH US. It’s not like we handed over the keys to the city with that shit either. 61 years is NOTHING!
wake up guy!
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Jasonburns said:
Is there a record of discrimination against Asians in the NBA? I don’t think so.
I think that Abagond mentioned this already but if anything the NBA is a clear example of how discrimination keeps groups from succeeding. I mean think about it. We didn’t allow blacks to play in the NBA until 1950!!
So they kept Blacks from playing in the NBA, but allowed Asians to play? That’s news to me.
61 years is NOTHING!
61 years ago Japan was still recovering from having atomic bombs dropped on them. I think that must explain their lack of basketball prowess.
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Actually I just read that the first POC to play in the NBA was Japanese.
I assume that Asian Americans would have been discriminated against had they tried to enter the NBA, I just assumed they hadn’t really been interested in the NBA specifically. Which is a racist assumption on my part.
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Randy said:
“Does anyone think that asians aren’t prevalent in the NBA due to historical discrimination? Of course not.
Then why do so many people automatically assume the opposite conclusion for other groups and other fields, such black folks in engineering and software development?”
Because most blacks in America go to shit schools and everyone the fuck knows it. That is fucking why. Wake the fuck up.
Engineering requires a good grounding in mathematics, something that most American schools do not give you, not just the black ones but even the white ones. That is why America has to fucking IMPORT engineers.
Basketball, on the other hand, requires no serious education at all. But it does require talent, something that money cannot buy. It is one of the few highly-paid fields in American society where money or skin colour do not give you a built-in advantage, where there is not much room for racist judgements by employers.
That is why blacks are “good at basketball”. It certainly has nothing to do with any height advantage black men supposedly have: white men are taller on average – even if you look at just the top 5% of each race.
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They have an Africentric school in Toronto beginning at the earliest grades. According to this article:
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/moira_macdonald/2010/09/24/15469271.html
The inaugural Grade 3 class of the Africentric Alternative School significantly outperformed both the board and the province in this year’s results.
The school’s 16 Grade 3 students collectively had 69% of students reaching the provincial Level 3 standard in reading, 81% in writing and 81% in math. For the board, those scores sit at 60%, 70% and 71%. For all of Ontario, they’re 62%, 70% and 71%.
Was the school simply blessed with an already high-achieving crop of kids? Nope, she says.
“The students really run the gamut … Some kids at the beginning of (last) year were having challenges in reading and so it really required ongoing consistent teaching and continual motivation,” says Hyman, adding the school “still has some work to do” in reading.
I’ll go with the crappy school scenarios, for the lack of a good education…..
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Herneith,
It may be comforting to blame the schools, but if you’ve ever seen documentaries or news reports on the realities of failing schools, most have critical discipline problems which create environments not conducive to learning.
It’s not the school’s responsibility to teach children to behave and not be disruptive. That responsibility lies with parents. Bad schools are most often the result of bad parenting.
The situation cannot improve until that uncomfortable reality is acknowledged. I can’t understand why so many people dodge this.
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Abagond said:
“Engineering requires a good grounding in mathematics, something that most American schools do not give you, not just the black ones but even the white ones. That is why America has to fucking IMPORT engineers. ”
That’s one theory. Another theory is that not enough American students want to put the work in that is necessary for high-knowledge careers. This again is a result of parenting choices.
Regardless of race or income, parents who demand academic excellence from their children produce successful students.
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Because most blacks in America go to shit schools and everyone the fuck knows it. That is fucking why. Wake the fuck up.
Beyond Stating The Obvious 101 and since Randy acts like he’s so hard of learning, let me make this perfectly clear: I don’t find Randy’s Asian/NBA analogy to be workable, let alone serious, for the reason Abagond states and others. Up until his last post, he had never even mention any specific fields/professions (that I’m aware of) and definitely didn’t cite any actual examples of “so many people automatically” assuming anything. All his oft repeated post-shift question to me was the vague-est of vague dumbshitz.
But since Randy is so fuckin desperate (with all his grade school White racial angst/anxiety dripping from his posts), I will try to help him understand The Plain Fucking Obvious 101 by expanding on an example I’ve already talked about here.
Up-thread I mentioned the NFL coaching situation. There was, in fact, attention brought to the situation by prospective coaches, civil rights leaders, etc. In that situation, the “restrictions” on hiring Black coaches were not only removed with the advent of AA or equal opportunity employment policy but some hirings (e.g. Art Shell) had in fact occurred.
The removal of the “restriction”, however, had no bearing on whether there was widespread institutional bias in the NFL as far as coach hires were concerned. So after Tony Dungy was hired and began proving himself, the conspicuous lack of other Black head coach hires came to the spotlight when a number of Black assistant coaches were either not being interviewed or not seriously considered no matter what their depth of experience was.
So, the Rooney Rule was instituted because in too many cases Black asst. or college coaches weren’t even granted interviews. The rule, which only requires that a minority applicant be granted an interview, seems to have resulted in more hires than there were before with those Black coach hires proving to be just as successful (e.g. Mike Tomlin) or just as awful as their White counterparts.
So, for any field/profession, that merely has had the “restrictions” lifted but hasn’t instituted a serious plan to make sure they root out the institutional bias by seriously considering minority applicants by giving them an objective hearing/interview (which even the Rooney Rule isn’t a perfect example of)… YES!! AA is warranted for as long as the biases exists (i.e. the very answer I gave Randy when I threw the cop-out sh*t he said in another thread back in his face).
So, Randy, if it means AA last forever and a day, for perpetuity x perpetuity… whatever, however-long… my answer is still, YES!
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I haven’t read this whole thread but the idea that Asians aren’t in the NBA because of racism is stupid.
They are underrepresented in ALL sports. Zero in the NFL, NHL and only a handful in MLB.
Maybe they just aren’t that good? Maybe they’re not interested in sports..
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It may be comforting to blame the schools…
There goes Randy dipping into his White racial-partisan’s stereotype-casting bag of tricks.
Rather than even take a second to consider how Afro/Africentric schools or other public/charter/private schools that have specifically tried to turn things around in the areas where they may have had “critical discipline” problems, Randy would rather dismiss one of the problems never corrected and directly inherited from the time when racist “restrictions” were still in tact.
Such a pity…
Garvey is an African-centered educational environment, and in 2008, its students outperformed the state average in most categories on the MEAP. Three other African-centered schools in Detroit serving students in kindergarten through eighth grade fared better than the Detroit Public Schools average.
Staff, parents and students at Garvey credit the school’s Afrocentric curriculum for setting high expectations and instilling the self-confidence that students need to excel.
Proponents of Afrocentric schools maintain that these schools represent a solution to achievement and discipline problems in urban districts like Detroit Public Schools.
African-centered schools outperform others because of their family-oriented environment, said Haki Madhubuti, a nationally renowned educator.
http://m.freep.com/news.jsp?key=599506&rc=lo
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Nquest,
By what types of measurement would you determine if continued race-based intervention were necessary in a given field? I am genuinely interested to understand this.
Relevant to your comment:
“Did the Rooney Rule Really Work?”
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/did-the-rooney-rule-really-work/
“Using logit and hazard models that control for age, experience and performance, we conclude that conditional on a coach reaching coordinator status, there is no evidence that race influences head coach hiring decisions. We also find no evidence that the Rooney Rule has increased the number of minority head coaches.”
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It may be comforting to blame the schools, but if you’ve ever seen documentaries or news reports on the realities of failing schools, most have critical discipline problems which create environments not conducive to learning.
No, it’s probably ‘comforting’ for you to think that.
It’s not the school’s responsibility to teach children to behave and not be disruptive. That responsibility lies with parents. Bad schools are most often the result of bad parenting.
Never has been the school’s responsibility. Where’d you get that notion from? You can discipline children until the cows come home. If the particular school system is bad, you could have the most disciplined children, but they wouldn’t be learning anything. I am talking about the curriculum offered. No, it’s resources allocated to schools and the curriculum developed to cater to the children among other social ills.
The situation cannot improve until that uncomfortable reality is acknowledged. I can’t understand why so many people dodge this.
What uncomfortable reality? Yours? Some of the school districts are just plain lousy! Sure you are going to get some behavioural problems but that’s not the whole picture. You probably get them in the ‘better’ schools as well. I don’t particularly get my information watching documentaries or news reports. If I was an alien having to depend on what I saw on television in order to understand how humans were, I’d have a pretty skewed view of them. I might think they talked like Foghorn Leghorn for example. Maybe your an alien!
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Regardless of race or income, parents who demand academic excellence from their children produce successful students.
What does that have to do with what Abagond said?
Engineering requires a good grounding in mathematics, something that most American schools do not give you
To the extent that that is true, no amount of parents demanding academic excellence will produce “good grounding” in mathematics, good enough to prepare students for the high level math needed for engineering.
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Whether the Rooney Rule worked or not isn’t the issue, Randy. You try real hard to miss the point all the time.
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From your link:
“The league achieved its aim. By 2005, there were six African-American coaches in the NFL…”
Now, Randy, what’s the track record of those Black coaches and those hired after 2005. If you can prove that they haven’t been as successful as their White counterparts, White coaches hired over the same period, then and only then will you have a point.
And, please, note the “conditional” the Solow, Solow and Walker used which limits the number of coach hires they were considering.
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A few years before the Steelers hire and just after the Rooney Rule was enacted, the Cincinnati Bengals: (1) had never in 35 years as a franchise interviewed a person of color for offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, or head coach
http://www.thepostgame.com/commentary/201101/rooney-rule-not-perfect-it-undeniable-it-has-worked
I guess “race” didn’t play a factor in any of the Bengals coaching interviews over that 35 year period. No Black/non-white coaching candidate must have had as much experience, etc. as the white applicants who sought any one of those coach jobs.
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shit schools
The Kansas City school experiment.
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Randy said:
“Regardless of race or income, parents who demand academic excellence from their children produce successful students.”
and again:
“Parents of any race who make education a priority and demand academic excellence from their children produce good students. “
and (going all the way):
“Rather, my proposition is that regardless of a person’s race or status, the only way to improve one’s lot in life is to work hard and demand academic excellence from your children.”
and yet again:
“Also, it seems unconscionable to me that some people might inoculate their children with a fatalistic outlook, when in reality it has been demonstrated that kids who study hard and have parents who demand academic excellence have a great chance of success.”
Wow, so like paying for private school or moving to the best school district within one’s means is Completely Unnecessary? America is so Wonderfully Equal by race and class and region that you can send your children anywhere and simply “demand academic excellence”?
Should you demand academic excellence? Of course. Is it as simple as that? No way. Not even for rich white people!
Someone needs to take your “Leave It to Beaver” DVDs and break them over your head. For your own good.
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You know, my parents always told me to hustle and get ahead.
They also taught me to be cognizant that white people can be some racist motherfuckers and to watch out for that in the real world.
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Abagond,
I don’t mean to trivialize the incredible level of commitment that is required in order to raise children who perform well academically, rather I don’t see that parents have any other option.
If you read the article that nonserviam posted, you’ll see a prime example where a school system completely failed even though money and racism were (quite expensively) removed as success-limiting factors.
In the end, the community and the parents failed which then caused the school system to fail, despite being drenched in cash and goodwill.
My wager is that if you tell me a child’s bedtime, number of minutes per week spent doing schoolwork outside of school, and number of minutes per week discussing schoolwork with parents, that I can predict a child’s chances of being academically successful, independent of race, income, or school quality.
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“I don’t mean to trivialize the incredible level of commitment that is required in order to raise children who perform well academically, rather I don’t see that parents have any other option.”
Than what if it’s a single mother working full time? My mom had to work two jobs, sometimes 3 to feed my sister and I. Despite her intentions she just couldn’t devote the time necessary to keep up with our studies when we were kids. I agree with you Randy that it’s got more to do with what’s happening at home than in the institutions themselves. But unlike you I believe racism has also played a big role in undermining the family structure of black Americans, which in turn undermines education. which reinforces poverty, which further undermines the family structure. Racism has created a cycle of destruction that it’s not so easy to get out of. You can’t pull the rug out from under someone and then shame them for not getting up fast enough.
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I don’t mean to trivialize the incredible level of commitment that is required in order to raise children who perform well academically, rather I don’t see that parents have any other option.
Ever hear of historical trauma? There are a lot of factors involved, it is not simply a matter of driving your kids to succeed. A single parent may not be able to go to the school to go to bat for their kids as they may be working 2 or 3 jobs, as Jason wrote. There are just too many factors involved to simplify these problems. Throw racism into the mix and you have a bad situation made worse.
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Jas0n and Herneith,
I also grew up in a single parent home, and understand the difficulties that creates.
How can the state remediate what is fundamentally a problem of poor personal choices? It’s a thorny question that I am unaware of being addressed honestly in any major public forum.
Until the 600 pound gorilla in the room is acknowledged (parents and communities making poor choices that work against their own long-term interests), I cannot see how the situation can significantly improve.
How can any problem be solved when addressing the biggest cause of that problem is avoided out of widespread political squeamishness?
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“How can any problem be solved when addressing the biggest cause of that problem is avoided out of widespread political squeamishness?”
It isn’t really avoided though. What’s avoided way, way more often is the role racism plays.
Furthermore, whites aren’t responsible for fixing black families. It isn’t our place to lecture anyone. Our job is to recognize the role that racism plays in hindering people and deal with that. Because it does play a role and working against it would help uplift POC in a real way. If you actually cared about helping change things that’s what you as a white person would focus on.
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” It’s a thorny question that I am unaware of being addressed honestly in any major public forum.”
don’t you remember in 2008 when Obama went around lecturing at black churches?
What about Bill Cosby?
Plenty of black leaders and writers have put responsibility on black families. When is the last time you heard a white leader mention the role racism plays in impeeding the success of POC?
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Anybody read this?
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@ Randy
I think that Jason hits the nail squarely on the proverbial head.
It’s not that Blacks don’t discuss and advocate for personal responsibility and initiative… but that is often a more internal discussion FUBU. Many a Black church, club, or urban organization has pressed the ideas of education, good values, and established personal goals. Whether these be cracking into the Ivy Leagues, or becoming a certified dental assistant, the idea of self improvement is and has been championed.
But the fact that hard work can pay off, doesn’t mean that racism (institutional or personal) can’t also be discussed as a very real problem that still effects Black people today. That is the phenomenon that Abagond chooses to write about here.
But the problem seems to be, that every time racism is brought up, folks like yourself immediately retreat from the reality of modern racism, and immediately begin pointing the finger at Black families who “aren’t working hard enough” to overcome these obstacles. They just aren’t willing to sacrifice enough, to work hard enough, to do what it takes to succeed. All of which takes the focus off of White racism and redirects it onto Black laziness as the “REAL” problem.
It’s a rather old technique.
“Please, somebody help me, I’ve just been raped!!”
“Really? Tell me, how were you dressed?”
“Why were you targeted out of so many other girls?”
“You know if you were more careful this probably wouldn’t have happened.”
You see the real issue isn’t rape, it’s personal responsibility.
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Co-sign.
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I think it’s erroneous to frame the educational problems in this country as strictly black v. white. The reality is much more complex.
“Furthermore, whites aren’t responsible for fixing black families.”
True, but the taxpayer is forced to foot the bill for communities with fractured families and poor civic management (regardless of race).
You then have a situation where the taxpayer has an obligation to support communities that apparently have zero responsibility of their own. This is a great conundrum.
The taxpayer has an unending responsibility but the community has none.
“Keep forking out the dough, but don’t you DARE tell us that we’re not being good parents!!” Let me state again that this is not a black v. white issue inherently.
King said: “But the problem seems to be, that every time racism is brought up, folks like yourself immediately retreat from the reality of modern racism, and immediately begin pointing the finger at Black families who “aren’t working hard enough” to overcome these obstacles.”
Ok King, you’ve just been elected king, what exactly would you do? I’m interested to hear how your philosophy translates into policy.
Also, did anyone read the Kansas City school system story?
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King,
That’s an interesting analogy. So following your analogy, if Whites as a group are “raping” Black people, then why do Black people want to have a relationship with White people? If a woman is raped, a sane woman would want the man to be punished, not seek his hand in marriage. Even if the rapist paid the woman monetary reparations for his crime, she would always hold anger towards him. And even after he served his sentence, would they truly be able to have an amicable relationship?
This goes back to what I asked Abagond earlier. If Whites as a whole are morally bankrupt then how is it possible for Blacks to even function in a White dominated society? It seems to me that if you followed that line of thinking, the only solution would be to either separate from Whites or work towards making Whites a minority so that they’d lose the ability to hold power over Blacks. The second option seems to one in motion right now.
I guess after that point is reached, then the long over due punishment can be given.
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Ok King, you’ve just been elected king, what exactly would you do? I’m interested to hear how your philosophy translates into policy.
1) I am already King.
2) Just so I”m clear, am I to point my edicts toward racism in general, or towards education, or both?
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Sagat, I’ll ask the question back at you. Women have been raped by men for millennia. So following history, if Men as a group are “raping” Women, then why do Women want to have a relationship with Men at all?
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Let me state again that this is not a black v. white issue inherently.
Well thank the higher powers for small mercies!
True, but the taxpayer is forced to foot the bill for communities with fractured families and poor civic management (regardless of race).
Hold on, aren’t the taxpayers part of the community?
You then have a situation where the taxpayer has an obligation to support communities that apparently have zero responsibility of their own.
What are you going to do with these ‘fractured families’ regardless of race? Send to Bora Bora? How about Krakatoa East of Java? The more remote the better! Hide your societal problems. Perhaps they can create another Australia!!!!
Ok King, you’ve just been elected king, what exactly would you do? I’m interested to hear how your philosophy translates into policy.
I don’t know what King would do, but if I were Queen, I’d deport you to Barsoom, you can pontificate to the creatures there!:
http://www.erbzine.com/mag28/2894.html
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Where did King say WP were raping BP? As a group or otherwise.
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King asked:
“1) I am already King.
2) Just so I”m clear, am I to point my edicts toward racism in general, or towards education, or both?”
I was thinking about education specifically, but if addressing educational problems requires addressing racism as a whole, then feel free to decree upon that subject also.
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To jas0nburns:
When is the last time you heard a white leader mention the role racism plays in impeeding the success of POC?
Former Presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton come to mind… even George Bush called people racist for resisting an Amnesty bill for illegal immigrants. If you move away from elected officials I can come up with a list of over 25 people.
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King,
Seriously? That’s a pretty weak reversal. Women obviously have no choice, since they require men to reproduce and vice versa.
Do you think those two situations are even comparable? Do you feel that Blacks require the presence of Whites to exist?
Where did King say WP were raping BP? As a group or otherwise.
Jason, I was speaking metaphorically, not literally. I was applying King’s analogy about blaming the victim to Black/White race relations in America with Whites being the victimizer and Blacks being the victim.
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Yes.. I see… Women would clearly die if they couldn’t reproduce…
In fact, I have an Aunt who never had kids and she’s been dying of that malady for over 80 years now.
Reproduction is a choice.
Unless you’re raped.
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I gotta go to the store. I’ll answer you Randy when I get back.
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King,
Do you understand the difference between individuals and groups? People vs persons?
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Abagond,
When did it become okay for black people to be underneath the boot of others? China is relevant to the convo, Indeed! But, what are we gonna do as it relates to politics, finance, and culture moving forward?
Batman drives the batmobile, Robin sits in the passenger seat……As black people on this planet, do we want to turn the wheels or watch the wheels turn? Black people should never get used to being underneath anybody. Majority Rules, It’s not a theoretical concept……Political and Economic power are born out of real numbers when knowledge of self is present. Blackmen on this planet are happy to be “Robinesque” in their thinking, and it’s killing us. I don’t want to be enslaved to communists, marxists, radical muslims, european socialists, etc.
How are we gonna increase the black population on this planet in a meaningful way? How are we gonna decrease black-on-black violence amongst our people? How are we gonna decrease the transmission of HIV/AIDS in Africa and throughout the diaspora? What are we gonna do about abortion and it’s negative results for our people? Will we be more inclusive as it relates to political ideology and practice, or, will we continue to support one political movement which has resulted in our enslavement?
Abagond, these are just a few of the questions that we need to think about. Aquarius Vision is not a game to me, Life is not a game to me. The truth is the line between life and death, Ditto!
Tyrone,
X-ray Vision
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When did it become okay for black people to be underneath the boot of others?
See Tyrone understands exactly what I was talking about. I don’t know why others(Abagond and King) are avoiding discussing the obvious implications that living under a morally deficient White majority means for Black people. All this talk about what Blacks or Whites need to do to fix education and employment disparities becomes moot when you hold the position that Whites are an oppressive force in Black people’s lives.
It boils down to this: if Whites are so bad, then the situation for Blacks is hopeless in America as long as Whites are in power.
Why would Blacks, as a group(that’s for you King), choose to stay in an abusive relationship with Whites?
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“King,
Do you understand the difference between individuals and groups? People vs persons?”
@ Sagat… Exactly
When we talk about “White People” what we are talking about is the White-favoring system, and sometimes to specific White demographics, or even individual White people. We are almost NEVER talking about ALL White people.
Therefore it is illogical to ask why we (Black people) don’t separate ourselves from White people. For all you know, we ARE separating ourselves from the White people whom we are describing, capisce?
Just as women try to separate themselves from the men that are rapists, we try and separate ourselves from the Whites who are racist… it doesn’t necessarily involve leaving the country en masse, or the planet (for Herneith’s benefit).
That is why I used the comparison… It’s not off track, it’s just over your head.
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“75% Chinese and 12.4% white.”
Actually, whites compromise about 65% of the population currently.
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We are almost NEVER talking about ALL White people.
Why don’t they get that?
Why would Blacks, as a group(that’s for you King), choose to stay in an abusive relationship with Whites?
Perhaps we are not white behind kissers like you who cosy up to white supremacists toadying for their approval(I’ve perused your blog). Many of the blacks you refer to have been on the continent for hundreds of years. They don’t have to go anywhere or plead their cause to you and your ilk. Why the h*ll would you ask someone such a question to start? What’s wrong with you?
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jas0nburns said: “It isn’t really avoided though. What’s avoided way, way more often is the role racism plays.”
Did you happen to read about the Kansas City schools experiment yet?
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html
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Randy you ask such a big question and now that I’m back from the store I want to cook my collard greens and turkey necks (which I’ve had a taste of all week!!)
I don’t believe that improvement could be accomplished simply by royal fiat. I think the most obvious thing that needs changing is attitude. Two in particular:
1) The Conservative attitude that most Blacks (as a group) are intellectually inferior to Whites and it’s a waste of time and tax money to try and bring their demographic to equal standing with that of Whites.
2) The Liberal attitude that most Blacks (as a group) may be somewhat inferior intellectually to Whites but that this is O.K. and just needs to be compensated for a little bit, and handicapped so as to provide an “adjusted equality.”
Both attitudes are based on the same lie: Blacks (as a group) are intellectually inferior. Both attitudes have no place in a successful plan for modern education.
Collard greens…. sorry dude.
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Randy, you are desperate need of some soul food.
I suggest you consult the all knowing internet for a restaurant near you.
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King,
I rather enjoy greens along with some fatty porkness.
Your comment illustrates the great challenge that faces society. Both liberals and conservatives often advance concepts which instill self-limiting beliefs in poor minorities. Either they’ve lost the genetic lottery and aren’t smart enough to compete, or the “Man” is out to get them and they don’t stand a chance.
Both are disempowering.
How does one effect an attitude change (any attitude change) using policy? Compounding the difficulty of the task is the reality that there are plenty of vested interests for whom such attitude changes are anathema.
I advocate family-level bootstrapping simply because there doesn’t seem to be any other option that is available.
My wife grew up in 3rd world poverty, attending crumbing schools with leaking roofs and broken toilets. Students had to buy their own textbooks, and if they could afford it, they were out of luck. Her parents were relentless in pushing education, and now she’s here in the US living a life once undreamed of.
If anyone has an alternative path to breaking the cycle of poverty, I’d like to hear it.
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@Randy Garver
It’s pretty hard to get ahead when blacks are given a crappy public education by the public school system-a system in which the majority of the people who make decisions and hold power are white.
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“I rather enjoy greens along with some fatty porkness.”
Then, there is hope for you yet!!
Next you’ll be telling me that listening to Charlie Mingus helps you to digest your food.
“I advocate family-level bootstrapping simply because there doesn’t seem to be any other option that is available.”
Every approach has it’s limitations as well as it’s successes. But it’s not a competition of concepts. You can acknowledge racism here with us without believing that racism is omnipotent. Bootstrapping is not THE ANWER to racism, it’s just one of many ways that people deal with racism. Talking about how it effects us (on a blog) is another perfectly legitimate response to it. There is no reason to say “stop complaining and start bootstrapping!” Both responses manifest themselves in different arenas.
Take Abagond, (the Chief Complainer and bottle washer) how do you think he became a computer programmer? Do you think that ALL that he has done is blog??? Most of us here have pronounced bootstrap burns on our hands.
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Did you happen to read about the Kansas City schools experiment yet?
LMAO!! Randy’s parent convulsions all started when Herneith mentioned Canadian Africentric schools. But, instead of reading up on the Afrocentric schools in the U.S., Randy would rather play ostrich, stick his head in the sand, cover his eyes and hit the reverb on the “look over there” button.
Typical…
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To Calculator:
It’s pretty hard to get ahead when blacks are given a crappy public education by the public school system-a system in which the majority of the people who make decisions and hold power are white.
It doesn’t seem that Black children do very well in cities where the majority of the Administration is Black. (Such as Washington DC.. which when compared at the state level had the highest funding per capita for students… however adjusted for living expenses it is estimated to be around 13th…)
There is an environment where Black children do well where the school administration at least is heavily White, (at least at the school administration level…) the schools in the US military. So I don’t think it is just a matter of White run districts versus Black run districts.
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@ Uncle Milton
It’s not the color of the administrators, it’s the misguided theory of minority education. And often a lack (or mismanagement) of funding.
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It’s not just the school’s job to educate children. It’s also the parent’s job!!! Parents need to encourage, pressure, or even coerce their children to study. Think about it. Will a kid simply read a textbook just for fun? Of course not! That’s whrere the parent steps in and makes the child study.
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King,
When we talk about “White People” what we are talking about is the White-favoring system, and sometimes to specific White demographics, or even individual White people. We are almost NEVER talking about ALL White people.
I never assume that you mean ALL White people. From the stance that you take, the reason that minorities are oppressed is because Whites are the overwhelming majority. The White-favoring system that you talk about is exactly because of this. All the complaints that you level at Whites falls apart under the fact that you choose to live in this White dominated society. Blacks fought for integration, not separation. You have to come to grips with the fact that Blacks are a minority and as a result will never hold power in parity with Whites.
Therefore it is illogical to ask why we (Black people) don’t separate ourselves from White people. For all you know, we ARE separating ourselves from the White people whom we are describing, capisce?
It’s not illogical at all. It’s not a minority of racist Whites that you rail against. It’s the White dominated society itself. All these issues that Abagond raises on this blog stem from that fact. Much of the “racism” that you guys complain about is just Whites looking out for their own. And if you can possibly understand how and why Blacks, Hispanics, Asians or anyone else would do that, then you should understand why Whites do too.
That is why I used the comparison… It’s not off track, it’s just over your head.
That’s rich. You refuse to address the overall point that I’ve made, either because you fail to comprehend it or don’t want to face the obvious implications of your own beliefs.
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To King:
It’s not the color of the administrators, it’s the misguided theory of minority education. And often a lack (or mismanagement) of funding.
From that statement it would seem you think that some Black administrators are holding Black students. (Internal racism… lowered expectations…?) I also wonder how much John Ogbo’s theories apply (that there is peer group pressure not to perform…) I have a friend (former boss..) who sends her son to one of the best schools systems in California. She said an acquittance of her son (a young Black man..) was recently pulled out the public school system and is being sent to private school. (His father is doctor and his mother holds a position at Stanford..) The prime reason..? Even though this is quite a good school district he was getting harassed by other Black students because he was studious and getting As in their words he was “acting White..” His grades suffered one quarter so his very proactive parents pulled him out and put him in a private school.
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Just to stop Randy from mischaracterizing Kansas City like he does so much else, here are the conclusions drawn by that study (done by the Cato Institute, a right-wing, libertarian think tank):
“All the money spent in Kansas City brought about neither integration nor higher levels of achievement. The lessons of the Kansas City experiment should stand as a warning to those who would use massive funding and gold-plated buildings to encourage integration and improve education:
* The political realities of inner-city Kansas City made it impossible to fire incompetent teachers and principals and hire good ones.
* Because the community regarded the school system as much as an employment opportunity as an educational institution, less than half the education budget ever made it to the classroom.
* School superintendents found it hard to function because every decision was second-guessed by the court-appointed monitoring committee; the attorney for the plaintiffs; and the state of Missouri, which was paying most of the bills.
* Because the designers of the Kansas City plan assumed that inner-city blacks couldn’t learn unless they sat in classrooms with middle-class whites, the district wasted exorbitant amounts of time and money on expensive facilities and elaborate programs intended to attract suburban whites instead of focusing its attention on the needs of inner-city blacks.
* By turning virtually every school in the district into a magnet school, the Kansas City plan destroyed schools as essential parts of neighborhoods, fractured neighborhoods’ sense of community, and alienated parents.
* The mechanism used to fund improvements to the school system (a federal desegregation lawsuit) deflected attention from the real problem–the need to raise black achievement.
* The ideological biases of local educators and politicians, and the federal court, made them reject solutions that might have worked, such as merit pay, charter schools, or offers by private schools to educate students in return for vouchers.
* Because the district had no way to evaluate the performance of teachers and administrators, promotions couldn’t be based on merit.
* The desegregation plan created inverse achievement incentives–the district got hundreds of millions of extra
dollars in court-ordered funding each year but only if student test scores failed to meet national norms.”
Source:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-298.html
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@ Uncle Milton
Yeah, I witnessed some of that at my high school as well, although really it seemed like “acting white” is just the black version of “nerd.”
It sounds similar to the cliche’ scenario of white jocks picking on white nerds for studying hard. It’s stupid, but nothing new. We pick on our smart kids too.
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Herneith said:
Many of the blacks you refer to have been on the continent for hundreds of years. They don’t have to go anywhere or plead their cause to you and your ilk. Why the h*ll would you ask someone such a question to start? What’s wrong with you?
I read your link about the Canadian Afro-centric school. Did you post that to show that integration is the better solution for Black education? Get real. Face up to what you yourself promote. I’m not advocating for Blacks to separate. I’m throwing your views back in your face. If you can’t see that the problems Abagond talks about here on this blog can only be resolved through removal of Whites, then you aren’t even paying attention.
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If you can’t see that the problems Abagond talks about here on this blog can only be resolved through removal of Whites, then you aren’t even paying attention.
I should clarify that I meant the removal of Whites from Blacks’ lives, not off the continent.
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@ Sagat:
What should the whites in the post do?
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To jas0nburns:
It sounds similar to the cliche’ scenario of white jocks picking on white nerds for studying hard. It’s stupid, but nothing new. We pick on our smart kids too.
Yes… I know this exists to some extent within the White community (especially at schools in the rural South that emphasize football..) but this school is more like college prep. I know I was somewhat considered a nerd because I did well in class, especially science, but was more often considered a “freak” because of my attire and musical tastes. For the most part I didn’t really feel that the majority of White students were trying to hold me back intellectually or from my studies. I can’t say I fully understand the dynamic and impact to not “act White” has on Black students but there are authors who have looked into it such as John Ogbu:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ogbu#Involuntary_minorities
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Abagond said:
What should the whites in the post do?
You mean in your hypothetical scenario? It depends on what they want. If they want to live in a society where White ideals, sense of beauty, language and culture can flourish, then they should work to separate from the Chinese. They should use every method that they have to push for their own homeland and break free from Chinese domination. At the very least they should lobby for an autonomous region.
If they want to stay living among the Chinese, going to school with the Chinese and working for the Chinese, then they should accept that they put themselves in a situation, where as Tyrone put it, they’ll always be Robin to the Chinese Batman.
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To Nquest:
I read your links about Legacy admits at Public Universities…. all I can say is that I think it is a very bad policy. The bulk of the money funding those institutions comes from tax dollars and not from Alumni organizations. (which when they do donate money… often give it to sports programs…) I understand the rationale behind some AA programs albeit I may disagree how some are administered such as my example of the Korean American attaining a high SAT score vs. the Latina whose score was 400 points less but was admitted to the same schools which turned down the Korean American man, but Legacy programs at any publicly funded institution should be banned in my opinion.
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*chic noir struts into salon abagond where a hot debate is going on*
*Uncle Milton looking completing comfortable in a room full of top tier negroes who would make W.E.B Dubois smile says*
Uncle Milton The prime reason..? Even though this is quite a good school district he was getting harassed by other Black students because he was studious and getting As in their words he was “acting White..”
*chic noir takes a sip of tea & dares to interject*
Whenever I’ve seen a blk kid on TV or read about a blk kid “acting white” it’s almost always a blk male, never a blk female. I can’t recall ever hearing about a blk female being bullied because she got good grades which just makes me think, this is classic cool kids bullying the nerds
and it’s grossly overstated sort of like welfare queens in a Cadillacs
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Uncle Milton, don’t even start with that Ogbu stuff… especially since you appear to be woefully un(der)educated about the whole debate around Ogbu’s study. You could have at least search Wikipedia about it. Regardless, the fact that you would latch onto some stuff like that as if the supposed phenomenon foreign in an American culture that has long since had an ‘in-crowd’ vs. nerds phenomenon is disturbing and it begs the question why the difference:
When white burnouts give wedgies to white A students, the authors argue, it is seen as inevitable, but when the same dynamic is observed among black students, it is pathologized as a racial neurosis.
That’s from a NYT article regarding researchers, William Darity and Karolyn Tyson, who disagreed with Ogbu. Then there is Roland Fryer’s findings which contradict the exaggerated, speculative hype by people like John McWhorter (and Barack Obama) who used Ogbu’s thesis as another way to pathologize poor Blacks who don’t tend to go to the type of schools where the phenomenon may be at work (you know, like that nerd thing):
The “acting White” effect is more salient in public schools and schools in which the percentage of Black students is less than 20, but non-existent among Blacks in predominantly Black schools or those who attend private schools.
http://fulleryouthinstitute.org/2005/12/an-empirical-analysis-of-acting-white/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/04/AR2005060400126.html
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Oh Sagat… there is no way that you are going to concede your point, no matter what I say to you.
OK, I’m give it the old college try—once again I suppose.
“I never assume that you mean ALL White people. From the stance that you take, the reason that minorities are oppressed is because Whites are the overwhelming majority.”
Not really… it’s always been more about the ability of Whites to project their collective power not only onto minority populations in their own home countries, but also into any country/colony that you care to run away too. But, I guess it’s not worth getting into.
“The White-favoring system that you talk about is exactly because of this. All the complaints that you level at Whites falls apart under the fact that you choose to live in this White dominated society.”
Yeah… Ladies, did you know that:
“All the complaints that you level at Males fall apart under the fact that you choose to live in this Male-dominated society?”
If you all moved off to the Isle of Themiskyra, only then would your complaints about chauvinism and misogyny actually be validated. Otherwise, WE KNOW you like iT!!! That’s why you’re still here!!
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To Nquest:
Uncle Milton, don’t even start with that Ogbu stuff… especially since you appear to be woefully un(der)educated about the whole debate around Ogbu’s study.
I stated I wasn’t very familiar with the “acting White” claims. I did read the counter claims to John Ogbu’s study…and the affirmation of the study in inter racial school districts. I realize his study was concerned with a majority White upper middle class suburb… with a so called good school district. He choose the school for a reason… how correct was he…? I don’t know.. I didn’t read the book… but when he was teaching at Berkeley (I live in the SF Bay Area…) various articles about his work appeared in the press fairly often. I threw it out there to spur a discussion.. I suppose I succeeded.
For myself, my willingness to study and learn came from the (very heavy..) direction of my parents. I would think ones parents would be the strongest influence at least until the child hits their teen years.
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“I would think ones parents would be the strongest influence at least until the child hits their teen years.”
Co-sign.
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Did you post that to show that integration is the better solution for Black education?
No I didn’t. I posted the article to show alternative ways in which to improve education for black children. This method appears to be working. How you would interpret that as integration being the better solution is beyond me. Basically, if it works use it!
Get real. Face up to what you yourself promote.
I am real sir! What am I promoting according to you?
I’m not advocating for Blacks to separate.
You could have had me fooled! But I guess you, with your inferior HDB arse, has your head too far up the white man’s ass. I am surprised you aren’t jumping on the bandwagon of go back to Africa, or get your own autonomous region, or some such babble.
I’m throwing your views back in your face.
You aren’t throwing f*ck back in my face! If anything, you make me chuckle! Folks, a bit off topic here, but don’t read some of these responses while drinking a beverage. I have ruined a keyboard doing this because I spit up my beverage while laughing.
If you can’t see that the problems Abagond talks about here on this blog can only be resolved through removal of Whites, then you aren’t even paying attention.
Removal of whites? That scares you doesn't it? You wouldn't have any white behinds to kiss. Who knows, the whites may take you with them, after all they may need servants!
I have a question for you, a very crucial one. Please answer me truthfully. Who's that hot guy in your Gravatar picture?
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King said:
Not really… it’s always been more about the ability of Whites to project their collective power not only onto minority populations in their own home countries, but also into any country/colony that you care to run away too. But, I guess it’s not worth getting into.
One way or another, they’re gonna find you, they’re gonna getcha, getcha, getcha…
“All the complaints that you level at Males fall apart under the fact that you choose to live in this Male-dominated society?”
If you all moved off to the Isle of Themiskyra, only then would your complaints about chauvinism and misogyny actually be validated.
That woman analogy again? I guess you think that’s valid. All that crying about how he(Whitey) beat you, yet you still love him and want to stay with him anyway.
WE KNOW you like iT!!! That’s why you’re still here!!
^That’s what I was gonna say! 😆
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“When white burnouts give wedgies to white A students, the authors argue, it is seen as inevitable, but when the same dynamic is observed among black students, it is pathologized as a racial neurosis. “
That is so true. Not just about this but as a general white tendency. Does it have a name? Has Macon D done a post on it?
Blacks do x and it is bad and looked down on, but whites do it and it is merely the Norm. You see that with drug laws, illegitimacy and divorce rates, the artistic value of jazz, lips, the use of violence and on and on. It is what made Elvis rich.
I am still waiting for “The Caucasian Family: The Case For National Action” (the Moynihan Report on whites). And CNN’s “White in America”.
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Chic Noir: I can’t recall ever hearing about a blk female being bullied because she got good grades
Funny, while googling the articles I linked to above, I ran across a blog entry from a Black female blogger who indicated she was subjected to the “acting white” stuff but, for so many of the people who swear “it’s true”, the supposed terrible effects of the picked on student foregoing scholastic pursuits or academic excellence never seem to have happened to them (all fairly well accomplished people) or anyone they know, apparently. All they ever report is they were picked on.
The whole thing is a case study in how quick people, Black and White, believe the worst about Black people.
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@ Hernieth
THAT’S WHY I always use SagatGuard®, the space-age polymer coating that will save your keyboard from the yucks!
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To Abagond:
That is so true. Not just about this but as a general white tendency. Does it have a name?
Sure it’s called bullying, and you will find discussions on various websites describing it as more commonly a “Redneck” phenomenon. It’s not the same thing as how John Ogbu apparently characterized the “Acting White” issue. A closer approximation would be ostracism from more popular cliques that downgrade studying over social interaction which can cut across race and class lines.
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To King:
If you all moved off to the Isle of Themiskyra, only then would your complaints about chauvinism and misogyny actually be validated.
Themiskyra, Land of the Lesbians…? Directions? I like a challenge.
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Herneith,
You’ve misinterpreted half of what I wrote.
No I didn’t. I posted the article to show alternative ways in which to improve education for black children. This method appears to be working. How you would interpret that as integration being the better solution is beyond me.
My question about integration was asked sarcastically. It should’ve been obvious that I realized that an Afro-centric school for Blacks which showed improved educational results doesn’t offer much in the way of support for integration.
Basically, if it works use it!
I agree. So we should stop doing what doesn’t work – trying to force Black kids to think and learn like White kids. If Black children learn better with an Afro-centric curriculum, then we should use it.
I have a question for you, a very crucial one. Please answer me truthfully. Who’s that hot guy in your Gravatar picture?
What’s this? You got a gleam in your eye for a Thai man?
His name is Wanchana Sawatdee. Here’s a clip from a movie that he starred in. @55 secs you can see him with his shirt off(no homo).
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Ah… you caught that, Uncle. 🙂
I figured — hey, no men.
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King said:
“Every approach has it’s limitations as well as it’s successes. But it’s not a competition of concepts. You can acknowledge racism here with us without believing that racism is omnipotent. ”
I challenge the diagnosis of racism when the evidence as presented doesn’t appear to support it.
Why? If you care about people, you care about their problems. If you care about their problems, you desire to understand them. If you desire to genuinely understand something, you must be scientific and dispassionate and not settle for an answer that is just emotionally satisfying.
I believe that allegations of racism in particular bear close scrutiny. Why? Because there’s little you can do about it from a policy or operational standpoint.
Even the mighty King, when granted ultimate executive power, could discover no decree with which he might solve such a problem.
“Next you’ll be telling me that listening to Charlie Mingus helps you to digest your food.”
I haven’t listened to Mingus in a while, but I remember “The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady” making a huge impression on me when I first heard it.
Abagond,
Thanks for posting the summary of the Kansas City school district experiment. I would encourage folks to read the complete story so as to get a fuller understanding.
Basically, you had a school system that failed disastrously despite having unheard of amounts of money, black school board members, black administrators, black staff, and a comically herculean integration plan.
I do not see this result as an example of black folks having an insufficient capacity for success, but rather a demonstration that the argument of “racism and lack of money” as a primary cause for school failure is doesn’t properly explain the underlying problem.
Nquest,
While interesting, the afrocentric school project lacks broad applicability, since poor students come from all racial backgrounds.
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Randy said:
“I challenge the diagnosis of racism when the evidence as presented doesn’t appear to support it.”
For you it will almost never appear to support it. Why? Because you are so locked into a white privilege mindset that whatever ills blacks suffer from must be blamed on them somehow, never on whites. Which is odd since the power imbalance is so huge that it is not far from what you see in the post between the Chinese and whites.
I do not think whites are to blame for everything. I think they have little to do with black rates of illegitimacy and fatherlessness, for example. But when it comes to the things that whites mostly control, like education, policing, justice, housing, health care, employment, banking, etc, then, yes, the reasonable suspicion falls MOSTLY on them (though not completely). With power comes responsibility.
Blacks are fully capable of shooting themselves in the foot, but to suspect that is the case every time is not reasonable. And to play up those times when blacks do shoot themselves in the foot and remain stone cold silent about all the bad shit whites have done – or make lame-ass excuses for it – is somewhere between evil and delusional.
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Randy: the afrocentric school project lacks broad applicability, since poor students come from all racial backgrounds.
Yeah, and you’re here on this blog, on this topic with all your White racial anxiety and homerisms out of concern for poor students of all racial backgrounds. GTFOOH!!!
You were not talking about students of all racial backgrounds when you comments started this whole part of the debate:
Then why do so many people automatically assume the opposite conclusion for other groups and other fields, such black folks in engineering and software development?”
It clearly wasn’t how Abagond responded to your White racial anxiety and misdirect angst:
Because most blacks in America go to shit schools and everyone the fuck knows it. That is fucking why. Wake the fuck up.
It’s also was not the apparent point of you harping on the Kansas City school experiment:
To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan…
That’s from the link you kept begging people to read. So, for once, stop being blatantly disingenuous, shifting your responses away from the obvious context that the debate was set in just so you don’t have to account for your flawed logic and hypocritical or non-reciprocal way in which you engage in discussion/debate.
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Randy says:
“I challenge the diagnosis of racism when the evidence as presented doesn’t appear to support it.”
Abagond says:
” do not think whites are to blame for everything. I think they have little to do with black rates of illegitimacy and fatherlessness, for example.”
The way I see it. (going from various accounts) Racism could be likened to pressure. A couple of hundred years ago it was an immense, pounding, heaving pressure and now it’s like a weaker, dull throbbing pressure. I think white people like randy see that dull pressure and say “Aw, it can’t be that bad” and look for other reasons to explain the achievement gap.
As I see it, Pressure causes cracks. I think that pressure broke a lot of people back in the day and I think that psychological damage was passed down from one generation to the next through interpersonal relationships and culture. And because of segregation all that brokenness stayed within one community. It was trapped and concentrated. I’m not saying black people are broken or anything, far from it in fact. I’m just saying more pressure=more damage. Concentrated damage, that hasn’t had time to work itself out. And of course WP aren’t helping matters by refusing to shoulder any of that burden. A burden we actually benefit from to this day.
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And of course WP aren’t helping matters by refusing to shoulder any of that burden. A burden we actually benefit from to this day.
What you mean “we”, white man? Does the entire taxpayers-subsidized race industry count for nothing?
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Randy: I do not see this result as an example of black folks having an insufficient capacity for success, but rather a demonstration that the argument of “racism and lack of money” as a primary cause for school failure is doesn’t properly explain the underlying problem.
Funny that. When Herneith mentioned Africentric schools and I piggybacked highlighting the apparent success of Afrocentric schools in the U.S., Randy quickly wanted to change the subject to “students of all racial background.” So, if you were honest, its not the “underlying problems” you’re concerned with. Instead, you come from a White racial-homer perspective and come to this blog to say “it’s not racism.”
That is. There is no other real argument that you’re making other than that. Yes, you’re quick with the age old racist talking points. But you focus is on declaring that it’s not racism.
Further, if you had a genuine interest in addressing or talking about the “underlying problems” then you would have engaged Herneith in a discussion about Afri/Afrocentric schools and how they seem to be able to address the “underlying problems.” The fact that you didn’t tell us exactly who and what you are, Randy.
Also, since the Kansas City experiment is what you see as an example to support you self-made-problematic position, then schools like those in the Harlem Children’s Zone and a number of others are ready counters which, I guess, represent resounding proof that racism and the lack of money/resources are big parts of the underlying problems.
Now, regarding “broad applicability”, let’s note again how you and I both know your “it’s not racism”, “did you read about the Kansas City experiment” (as if Kansas City is the only city in America) was, indeed, about Black students and not “students of all racial backgrounds.” So there are plenty of places where properly structured and supported Afrocentric schools or schools like the HRC could be the answer. But that would require you, Randy, to be an honest broker vs. a White racial-partisan. From what any objective observer can see, there is no reason to think you are the former.
Likewise, considering your White racial-partisan perspective, there is little reason to believe you would support schools like the one under attack in Wake County, NC:
Students of all races in Wake continue to outperform state and national averages and have improved on S.A.T. scores and end-of-year tests in recent years, supporters note. There remain significant gaps between races, with 87 percent of white elementary school students performing at or above their grade level in reading, science and math, compared with 48 percent of Hispanics and 46 percent of blacks. But all races made gains over the past school year.
Across the country, research shows that students of all races and backgrounds perform better in diverse schools, said Roslyn Arlin Mickelson, a sociologist at the University of North Carolina, Charlotte. Diversified schools typically have higher graduation rates, more college acceptances and fewer students in the criminal justice system, Ms. Mickelson said.
Some experts say that having middle-class students in a classroom raises the scores of poor students more effectively than increased per-pupil spending, more experienced teachers or lower student-teacher ratios.
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nquest The whole thing is a case study in how quick people, Black and White, believe the worst about Black people.
Yes and how one theory picks up some stream and everyone jumps on it.
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What’s this? You got a gleam in your eye for a Thai man?
I’d add him to my harem of mancubines any day!
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Abagond said: “For you it will almost never appear to support it. Why? Because you are so locked into a white privilege mindset that whatever ills blacks suffer from must be blamed on them somehow, never on whites”
To conclude that racism is at work in a given situation requires that you can determine the intent of a person or persons. This is often an extraordinarily difficult proposition by its very nature.
Nquest,
I thought the Kansas City example was a good one not because it was white v. black, but rather that it seems to be one of the few (if only) examples of a massive mobilization of resources to address a failing school system. There are simply not many examples to choose from.
Regarding afrocentric schools, I doubt that such schools could pass constitutional muster if attempted nationwide. Would you also support hispanic-centric, indian-centric, asian-centric, and white-centric schools?
The Wake article is interesting.
Such “diversity busing” is problematic from a cost and compliance standpoint, even though the results seem positive for the lower-income students.
Convincing wealthier parents to send their kids on a long bus ride to a lower socioeconomic school with academically challenged students is a tough sell, regardless of the races involved.
To be honest, I wouldn’t send my kids there. Would you?
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I am so gald that this isn’t about Germany taking over Europe. Yet I like Chinese people, I mean… their economy and overall facts are better than American, so why not?
Even I would want to be born Chinese so my mind would work well for multiples of tests in school….
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There are simply not many examples to choose from.
No, you’re simply just that freakin ignorant. By all appearances, you didn’t know anything about the Kansas City experiment. A prime example of your ignorance and your White racial-partisan’s leap-jump-grasp at anything to support your stereotype-laden views.
You are simply not knowledgeable enough to legitimately participate in the conversation.
I doubt that such schools could pass constitutional muster if attempted nationwide.
WTF are you talking about? There are already Afrocentric schools in a number of cities across the nation. Once, again, you are too ignorant to make a legitimate contribution to this discussion.
Unless you have some evidence of one of the schools being challenged on Constitutional grounds (on what basis?), then you need to STFU and deal with what your ever shifting position shows you as.
Again, it’s readily apparent that your real issue and concern isn’t “what works”, not what address both discipline and academic problems among these Black kids you want to talk about. No, it is and has always been your “it’s not racist” (i.e. not White people’s fault) reflex that has you showing your White racial-partisan azz over and over and over again. So stop the spinnin’…
Would you also support hispanic-centric, indian-centric, asian-centric, and white-centric schools?
WTF is “white-centric”? American schools are already Eurocentric, by and large, and always have been; hence, the reason for Afrocentric schools. And, there are, no doubt, countless number of all-white schools across the country. So WTF are you talking about?
Once again your pure unmitigated ignorance rears its ugly head.
And don’t ask me stupid questions, Randy. Stupid questions born out of your ignorance filled White racial anxiety complex. If you have an argument to make, make it, Randy. How many times do I have to tell you that? Are you capable of making a real argument?
And stop being my punch bag… reeling and retreating with every one of your posts.
To be honest, I wouldn’t send my kids there. Would you?
There you go, again, asking stupid questions. You need to do more research and inform yourself, Randy.
And, really, what’s the “tough sell” when all students of all racial backgrounds have improved scores/grades in the “diversity” school?
So, here it is, in two separate instances you, Randy, have NOT supported schools that improved the academic profile of their students. Even though you’ve open your mouth to talk about Black students, Black student success in Afrocentric schools wasn’t something you voiced support for. Then, when I provided an example of a successful “diversity” school where “students of all racial backgrounds” were improving academically… you have another excuse to be against not only the academic success of the Black students but all students in the school.
So, the truth is plain for all to see. It’s not about Black students succeeding academically for you. And you don’t give a fuck about the Constitution. Schools like Wake County have been trying to address what America’s living racist history has caused and have attempted to fulfill what was decided by the court in Brown vs. The Board of Education. You know, something so many White folks fought Day 1 and still fight today.
FYI… I support(ed) what they banned in Arizona.
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To conclude that racism is at work in a given situation requires that you can determine the intent of a person or persons.
No it does not. You judge a tree by its fruit. It doesn’t take knowing the “intent” of the tree to determine what the fruit is.
The “intent” of person(s) when it comes to discriminatory treatment in the areas Abagond mentioned — education, policing, justice, housing, health care, employment, banking, etc. — is irrelevant. That racism is it work, again, can be determined by the disparate/discriminatory treatment or result/outcome.
The “intent” of subprime lenders is irrelevant when the data shows disparate treatment along racial lines. Once could arguably say Whites in the Jim Crow area were “well intentioned” (at least from their perspective) but the effect of the Jim Crow era policies/practices, say, as far as so-called “separate but equal” schools were concerned is a very knowable thing.
White political conservatives rail against their liberal White counterparts all the time as being people with “good intentions” when it comes to race but argue that despite their intentions, White liberals do more harm than good when it comes to Blacks/minorities.
So you can put that idiotic, mindless talking point to rest.
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Nquest,
I am certainly not a constitutional scholar, but it seems likely that the implementation of taxpayer-funded segregated “separate but equal” ethnocentric schooling would face significant legal opposition if it were attempted nationwide.
Also, your argument would make more sense if there were only black people and white people, and the only failing schools and failing students were black. Obviously, that’s not the case.
What about ethnocentric schools for all other groups, such as arab immigrants in Dearborn, MI or poor whites in Appalachia just to name 2 examples?
Nquest: “And, really, what’s the “tough sell” when all students of all racial backgrounds have improved scores/grades in the “diversity” school? ”
From your article:
“But the new board members cite other statistics: a countywide graduation rate that has fallen over the past five years, rising suspensions and a widening performance gap between poor and wealthy students.”
I’m not sure this model is as unquestionably successful as you suggest.
Also from that article:
“There remain significant gaps between races, with 87 percent of white elementary school students performing at or above their grade level in reading, science and math, compared with 48 percent of Hispanics and 46 percent of blacks. ”
The “tough sell” was convincing wealthier parents that it’s in their interest to make their children ride a bus across town so they can attend a diverse school with sizable populations of struggling students. In this case, parental dissatisfaction led to a reversal of that plan.
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Randy said:
“Convincing wealthier parents to send their kids on a long bus ride to a lower socioeconomic school with academically challenged students is a tough sell, regardless of the races involved.
To be honest, I wouldn’t send my kids there. Would you?”
Wow. Just wow. And this from the very person who keeps telling us:
“Rather, my proposition is that regardless of a person’s race or status, the only way to improve one’s lot in life is to work hard and demand academic excellence from your children.”
and:
“My wager is that if you tell me a child’s bedtime, number of minutes per week spent doing schoolwork outside of school, and number of minutes per week discussing schoolwork with parents, that I can predict a child’s chances of being academically successful, independent of race, income, or school quality.”
All that stuff is SO easy to say when it is not YOUR children who are forced to go to the very schools that many black parents have to send their own children to.
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Randy said:
“To conclude that racism is at work in a given situation requires that you can determine the intent of a person or persons. This is often an extraordinarily difficult proposition by its very nature.”
So it is only racism when white people admit that it is racism. How nice.
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I don’t get why is so difficult for some people to grasp that, sometimes, things and outcomes DON’T depend on you or your abilities. I’m all for working hard and fighting you own battles, but sometimes it just depends on circumstances. And there’s very little you can do.
Contrary to what many (US? Western? White?) people believe, you can not be whatever you want, or achieve whatever you’re capable of achieving – not, if external circumstances do not let you.
To ignore this is just, well, a sign of privilege. Those of you who never faced such circumstances are not better nor more intelligent nor work harder – you simply never had to fight those circumstances. You are privileged enough not to think about it.
PS- Being born poor and white is, arguably, not one of those circumstances in the US. In some other parts of the world, yes it is, and no, people often don’t manage to overcome it.
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Mira:
Thank you!!! That is the very point of this post and what Randy, Nonserviam and the rest keep determinedly missing when it comes to affirmative action or education or probably anything else in the present day. Either because they do not want to admit it or because their privilege does in fact blind them. Which is the very reason I wrote about what it would be like for White Americans if they lost their privilege by losing the power upon which it rests (which, by the way, will come some day, sooner or later).
White Americans want to think they got to where they are through being genetically or culturally better than everyone else. Wrong. It came from the barrel of a gun. Just like the Chinese privilege in the post.
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“Disparate impact” is not a prima facie evidence of racism. It is, in fact, a noxious fallacy that keeps the groups of different average abilities from achieving a modicum of civilized co-existence, and generates resentment on all sides.
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White Americans want to think they got to where they are through being genetically or culturally better than everyone else.
While the “genetic” part is disputable (although likely to be at least partially true), the “cultural” is not. “Better than everyone else” at building and maintaining societies worth living in.
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Contrary to what many (US/Western/White) people believe, you can not be whatever you want, or achieve whatever you imagine to be capable of achieving – not, if internal factors (genetic and/or cultural) do not let you.
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Culture is not an internal factor!
And explain to me, nonserviam, what “internal factors” are not letting me achieve something that a white American can do. (I am a white non-Westerner). Maybe the fact Americans see my people as sh.t has something to do with it? Try being treated as a second or third class citizen for a change and then we’ll see what you’ll say.
Those who are in charge often hate their own citizens and deny them the basic human rights they have at birth, as both US citizens AND human beings! … And it’s somehow their fault?
If there’s justice, everybody should have equal rights and equal circumstances. We all know it’s not how it goes.
It’s like running a race and winning not because you’re better, but because you’re constantly given 5 minutes head start (and after all of it, you have a nerve to complain when told that, in order to minimize this effect at least a little, one second will be taken of your result to help others).
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Abagond: “All that stuff is SO easy to say when it is not YOUR children who are forced to go to the very schools that many black parents have to send their own children to.”
I never said it was easy, rather, that it’s often the only option parents have to improve their children’s future.
According to the article, the schools themselves in Wake County seemed to be well funded.
“To create economic diversity, Wake buses students out of their neighborhood zones, in extreme cases an hour away, and uses prestigious magnet schools to lure suburban children to struggling inner-city areas. “
Personally, I want to send my kids to schools where the most number of other students share a similar general outlook about education. I don’t see this being a very controversial viewpoint.
Parents who think that music instruction, or sports programs are extremely important often send their children to particular schools which emphasize those programs.
How many parents who care about music instruction and can send their kids to schools with notable music programs choose instead to send them to a struggling school, sacrificing their own child’s development so that their kids’ musical enthusiasm will rub off on the less fortunate?
I’d guess not many. Would you do that?
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To Mira:
And explain to me, nonserviam, what “internal factors” are not letting me achieve something that a white American can do.
What is it that you want to do Mira…?
Maybe the fact Americans see my people as sh.t has something to do with it?
Your people meaning Serbs…? I doubt many Americans think much about Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, or Romanians… and I doubt if you were a member of the latter three groups that would give you an edge instead of being Serbian.
If there’s justice, everybody should have equal rights and equal circumstances.
Has a nation ever existed where people had equal circumstances…?
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[quote]What is it that you want to do Mira…?[/quote]
I want to get the best possible education (PhD for example); however, because I live in a country that is seen as the worst s.it on the Earth, I am not eligible for many scholarships.
I want to work according to my level of education, interests and capabilities. Not to be forced to do minimal wage jobs.
I want to fu.king travel!
Now, not all of it is Western fault, a lot of it is my country’s fault. But it’s certainly not MY fault. And that’s exactly what I’m talking about.
[quote]I doubt many Americans think much about Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, or Romanians… and I doubt if you were a member of the latter three groups that would give you an edge instead of being Serbian. [/quote]
When I said “Americans”, I meant “American government”.
Also, Bulgarians and Romanians are in EU, and yes, that gives them a bit of a head start, at least in Europe.
[quote]Has a nation ever existed where people had equal circumstances…? [/quote]
No. Please don’t think I’m trash talking US only here. Wrong. There’s no such thing as a fair government or true justice. US (and its racism) is just one example of it, but a very telling example.
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(OK, here’s the PG version of my comment)
@Mira:
Culture is an outward manifestation of our biological natures. It is produced as a result of complex interplay between inheritance and environment and cannot be reduced to either.
Your comment about being a white non-Westerner treated like excrement by Americans is too cryptic. I would ask you to elaborate if you want my thoughtful response. On my part, I am an American citizen, but I come from elsewhere. I am also white. I don’t see any external factors applied to me exclusively that keep me from living a life I want to live.
Yes, the elites often treat the citizens as subjects: for example, by demonstrating their utter contempt for the concept of American citizenship, by “electing a new people” through unrestricted mass immigration, etc. Is this what you have in mind?
How can you guarantee “equal circumstances” in a free country?
I don’t thik I was given any head start. On the contrary, I had a few additional things to learn and master as an immigrant — which is how it should be.
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Ha! I used forum-based tags. Eh. Sorry. I hope it’s clear which lines I’m quoting.
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Randy:
Of course I am going to send my children to the best school within my means. But I am NOT the person on this thread who says stuff like this:
“My wager is that if you tell me a child’s bedtime, number of minutes per week spent doing schoolwork outside of school, and number of minutes per week discussing schoolwork with parents, that I can predict a child’s chances of being academically successful, independent of race, income, or school quality.”
That is YOU, not me.
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Ah, Serbia. Well, for the record, I strongly disagree with the unfair treatment of your country.
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Nonserviam,
Culture is an outward manifestation of our biological natures.
No, it is not. Are you an anthropologist? Judging by your answers, I’d say you’re not. So with all due respect, maybe you should STFU about the stuff you know nothing about. (Just like, I hope, you’d STFU about medicine if you’re not a doctor or a medical worker).
The closest thing to what you’re saying, proposed by the school of thought called “cultural ecology” , in which culture is defined as “outward adaptation to natural environment”. So people who live in deserts would have different cultures than those living in forests or very cold environment. It has nothing to do with genes.
On my part, I am an American citizen, but I come from elsewhere.
When and where? (You don’t have to be specific, but coming from an African country and Western Europe (if you’re white) is certainly not the same, immigration wise. One could see it’s not about language, even if English is not your first language. I could argue a white European immigrant, whose native language is not English has a head start compared to an Indian citizen whose first language is English).
Yes, the elites often treat the citizens as subjects: for example, by demonstrating their utter contempt for the concept of American citizenship, by “electing a new people” through unrestricted mass immigration, etc. Is this what you have in mind?
No, when I mentioned US citizens, I meant on black Americans who are often unable to fully claim their citizen and human rights.
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Ah, Serbia. Well, for the record, I strongly disagree with the unfair treatment of your country.
I am glad. But it has nothing to do with how US Government treat citizens of my country.
Individual level is not the same as the global level. A person is mart, people are stupid. So if forces stronger than us, as individuals (governments, for example) are unfair, we can at least try to be honest and fair as human beings. THAT is something you can do, even if you can’t change the world or the global level. By buying into what forces stronger than you tell you, and by discriminating against others you (general you) are just making the evil machine become even stronger.
(And once again, I’m not talking about US exclusively. This problem exist everywhere).
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Uncle Milton said:
“Has a nation ever existed where people had equal circumstances…?”
No, but there are plenty of countries far more equal than America. Even America itself used to be more equal.
In 1970 America was more equal than even Norway if you go by Gini coefficients. But since then Republican policies have driven it to Latin American levels of inequality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
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Using the Gini coefficient has its advantages and disadvantages. It’s not a complete reflection of how equal a country is.
You can have freedom, but you cannot have equality.
There are always going to be inequalities since people are born with different sets of talents, tendencies, and skills. For example, a gifted person with a high IQ definetely has an unequal advantages compared to the common people with average IQ. Thus, the gifted person will probably end up having many opportunities and be well-off compared to the average person.
Oh, if you looked at the wasteful spending by our government recently, would you want them to be using MORE of our money?!
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Things are never fair. Governments are never fair. It’s how it goes. To think otherwise is very delusional.
And I don’t think it’s possible to create a society that would never favour a group of people based on some random criteria (such as, but not limited to, race). However, once you see things are getting really bad, you (government) should really do something about it, and you (individuals), too. OR admit you are not interested in making things better because you’re not affected.
That’s why exercises such as this one (presented in this post) are- or should be- handy for everyone who try to imagine what is like not to have privilege. And maybe do something about it. Even if that “something” is a better understanding of a situation.
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@Mira:
First of all, you’re being gratuitously rude. I have nothing against strong disagreements or strong language on their own, but using latter to advance the former will get you nowhere.
This is the old nature vs. nurture debate, with its old answer: both contribute to the outcome, although the exact ratio needs further research and discussion. One doesn’t need to be a credentialed scientist to see that “it has nothing to do with genes” is a silly statement, merely a well-read and open-minded person. But since you insinuated, I do have a degree in molecular/cell biology.
I come from the Eastern Europe close to two decades ago, and I didn’t experience any special treatment from the government or citizenry, one way or another. In my turn, I treat everyone as an individual, as a peer unless proven otherwise, and race is neither a privilege nor an excuse.
Also, I don’t think I’ve been harmed by the race industry personally. My opposition to it is based on principle.
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This…
There are always going to be inequalities since people are born with different sets of talents, tendencies, and skills.
And this…
Things are never fair. Governments are never fair. It’s how it goes. To think otherwise is very delusional.
…feed off each other and are BASIC MYTHS!
Such beliefs need to stop being perpetuated otherwise the people who subscribe to such ideas will be the same people responsible for maintaining them as a reality.
Its no different from investing in the belief that Racism is natural. You cannot disbelieve one and not the other. Unless, of course, you already do!
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First of all, you’re being gratuitously rude.
I admit I was. But it just makes me mad when people take liberty to talk about anthropological (or archaeological) issues without knowing much about them. If they don’t do it for physics or medicine, what makes them think they can do it in this case?
What you wrote strongly implied you don’t know much about anthropology, and that’s why I reacted the way I did. I simply don’t have the patience.
The term “culture” is one of the most complex, most challenging ones, and random remarks on a blog can’t even begin to scratch the issue. It’s one of the central- if not THE most important things anthropology deals with, and it should not be taken lightly.
This is the old nature vs. nurture debate, with its old answer: both contribute to the outcome, although the exact ratio needs further research and discussion.
Yes, they do. But your definition of culture is still wrong.
One doesn’t need to be a credentialed scientist to see that “it has nothing to do with genes” is a silly statement
I was referring to the school of thought called “cultural ecology”, whose definition of culture might be the closest to one you propose. Still, their definition has nothing to do with genes, and yours does. (That’s what I was talking about; sorry if it wasn’t clear).
However, I must say nature vs nurture debate has nothing to do with race, since race is not a biological fact.
But since you insinuated, I do have a degree in molecular/cell biology.
So wouldn’t you get mad if I tried to argue something related to molecular biology with you… without knowing what a cell is?
I come from the Eastern Europe close to two decades ago
In the US you are white (today), so I am not sure if it’s the best comparison.
Kwamla,
If it’s a myth, then give me an example of a fair government and, perhaps, a way to immigrate to that country. I am serious.
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As I have stated it Mira. The problem is yours to reconcile. What ever you believe to be your experience must essentially become your reality or “natural” for you
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Abagond said:
“Of course I am going to send my children to the best school within my means. But I am NOT the person on this thread who says stuff like this:
“My wager is that if you tell me a child’s bedtime, number of minutes per week spent doing schoolwork outside of school, and number of minutes per week discussing schoolwork with parents, that I can predict a child’s chances of being academically successful, independent of race, income, or school quality.”
That is YOU, not me.”
I stand by that. In this case, I’m measuring “success” by the ability to get into college, which to me seems a primary stepping stone to escaping poverty. I’d further suggest that students with such a focus on education have a high likelihood of graduating.
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What ever you believe to be your experience must essentially become your reality or “natural” for you
Well, true, the fact my government is unfair and sucks definitely contributed to my belief ALL governments suck. That’s why I asked you to provide an example of one that is fair, since you said my belief that all governments suck is “just a myth”.
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Randy,
I stand by that. In this case, I’m measuring “success” by the ability to get into college
Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there colleges and “colleges” in the US? Sure, any college is ok, but it’s not like it doesn’t matter if you go to Yale or a community college?
(And a random question I always wanted to ask: what’s the difference between college, faculty and university? These things are different in my culture).
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To Abagond:
In 1970 America was more equal than even Norway if you go by Gini coefficients. But since then Republican policies have driven it to Latin American levels of inequality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
According to Wikipedia the lowest measured US Gini coefficient was in 1968 before the Great Society programs really started kicking in… (they were expanded under Nixon and Ford..) and the estimated Gini coefficient was even lower in 1947 than 1968. I’d say what has really expanded it in the US is the rush to globalization and the corresponding destruction of private unions. Globalization definitely seems to have been favored, at least initially by Republicans, but now Democrats also embrace it.
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To Mira:
(And a random question I always wanted to ask: what’s the difference between college, faculty and university? These things are different in my culture).
“I am going to college..” is a generic phrase meaning that you are going to a post secondary institution of higher learning .. (generally not a vocational school but there are exceptions…)
College can mean a 2 or 4 year institution. It can also mean a division within a University such as the college of engineering at the University of California, Berkeley. A University is an institution that has under graduate and graduate divisions.
Faculty is a term that can refer to teaching staff at the elementary, secondary, and post-secondary educational institutions. At the college and to a lesser degree the secondary (high school) level faculty are specialists in their fields. It can also be a branch of teaching or learning in an educational institution. (There are also definition of the word faculty that do not have to do with academics…)
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Randy said:
“I stand by that. In this case, I’m measuring “success” by the ability to get into college, which to me seems a primary stepping stone to escaping poverty. I’d further suggest that students with such a focus on education have a high likelihood of graduating.”
1. If you truly stand by what you say, then you should be willing to send your own children to one of those bad schools. Otherwise, it is just so much hot air which even you yourself do not take seriously – so why should anyone else?
2. And if you did send them to such schools, you would find yourself dependent on the willingness of universities to take the top students from bad schools – which would be affirmative action, which you oppose as being unfair!
Now, hopefully, you know just where I am coming from.
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“The term “culture” is one of the most complex, most challenging ones, and random remarks on a blog can’t even begin to scratch the issue. It’s one of the central- if not THE most important things anthropology deals with, and it should not be taken lightly.
This is the old nature vs. nurture debate, with its old answer: both contribute to the outcome, although the exact ratio needs further research and discussion.
Yes, they do. But your definition of culture is still wrong. ”
Agreed. LOL, it’s crazy because alot of the feelings and thought you share are simalar to my own. People in America don’t understand the difference between culture and race. My race is black, but alot of black culture goes over my head. That is because 1. Had little to no experience with certain subjects or 2. Had no connection what so even. Ever way, “reverse” racism/ racism wouldn’t make my life any better. I think the term reverse racism is retarded. It’s seems to be used a cop-out by non-whites to be jerks.
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Abagond said:
“1. If you truly stand by what you say, then you should be willing to send your own children to one of those bad schools. Otherwise, it is just so much hot air which even you yourself do not take seriously – so why should anyone else?
2. And if you did send them to such schools, you would find yourself dependent on the willingness of universities to take the top students from bad schools – which would be affirmative action, which you oppose as being unfair!”
1. Like you, I want to send my kids to the best schools within our means. Does this make me a hypocrite? Not at all.
In fact, this reinforces the point. Neither you nor I will send our kids to lousy schools so that some of our kids’ positive attitude towards education will rub off. When granted ultimate power, King couldn’t conceive of any decree to fix the problems in education.
So you see, I prescribe family-reliance because that’s the only real proven and available option for escaping poverty.
If such a concept is unpalatable coming from a white man, here’s what Condoleezza Rice, a highly successful black woman, had to say:
“Education is transformational. It changes lives. That is why people work so hard to become educated and why education has always been the key to the American Dream, the force that erases arbitrary divisions of race and class and culture and unlocks every person’s God-given potential.”
and
“You never cede control of your own ability to be successful to something called racism.”
2. I’m opposed to race-based affirmative action not needs-based AA. I think the latter is far more fair in a multi-ethnic society.
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“I’m opposed to race-based affirmative action not needs-based AA. I think the latter is far more fair in a multi-ethnic society”
So am I. I won’t never send my child to Afrocentric school. No matter what, in the end you’ll have to deal with people different from you. And being around people of vaguely same continent doesn’t mean that child won’t go thought prejudice and usually goes by a different form conformity.
I don’t know. Some people are forced to send to public schools and not all private schools are worth the money. Chicago publics are noterious for being horrible. They’re sghould be funding in the education lower class folks, but at the same time, I think alot of them are spoiled into government handouts. Not all of them. But the people wanting the change should do more.
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Randy:
1. You are shifting your position. When it comes to YOUR children school quality DOES matter. “Demanding academic excellence” suddenly is no longer enough – but it was for those who have to send their children to the worst schools. How nice.
2. Condoleezza Rice, unlike you, does not put her head in the sand when it comes to racism. Her parents taught her she had to be twice as good as white people to overcome their racism. And rightfully so: as Martin Luther King, Jr pointed out in 1967:
“Of the good things in life, the Negro has approximately one half those of whites. of the bad things of life, he has twice those of whites. Thus half of all Negroes live in substandard housing. And Negroes have half the income of whites. When we view the negative experiences of life, the Negro has a double share. There are twice as many unemployed. The rate of infant mortality among Negroes is double that of whites and there are twice as many Negroes dying in Vietnam as whites in proportion to their size in the population.”
Maybe you think it is not so bad anymore. Think again. While personal income is now 79% of that of whites (among full-time workers ages 25-64 in 2006), unemployment is 1.96 times greater (January 2011) and infant mortality is 2.36 times worse (2005).
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“King couldn’t conceive of any decree to fix the problems in education.”
Actually, what I said was that didn’t believe that any single decree would FIX education. However, I pointed out that there were 2 attitudes (on opposing sides of the political spectrum) that would have to be defeated.
If you asked in 1961 (if I had been born) what single invention would take man to the Moon, and I said couldn’t name just one, that wouldn’t necessarily mean that I didn’t believe it was possible to get there.
Just because I don’t believe in a single decree solution doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in solutions.
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@Usagi
“…I think the term reverse racism is retarded. It’s seems to be used a cop-out by non-whites to be jerks…”
I think the way you are using the term reverse racism is less than accurate.
Reverse racism, is the refined term most often USED by those people who perpetuate or benefit from some form of Racism.
It is my observation, the people who “cry” reverse racism; are members of two groups. One group is experiencing something other than the institutional unearned privileges they have come to rely upon to grant them generational advantages,
and/or they are members of the same group using the terminology in attempt to derail a real issue of racism.
I do agree with you though, the term reverse racism is retarded. We all know; Racism is only supposed to go in one direction.
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Abagond,
“Randy’s wager” wasn’t about poor neighborhood schools being as good as rich neighborhood schools, but rather whether or not racism determined if a child was doomed to poverty.
If I recall correctly, that idea originally arose from a discussion about african and asian immigrant kids in poor neighborhoods being academically successful even though the schools were weak.
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@Mira:
“Culture” is a word with multiple meanings and shades thereof. I understand your desire to protect your turf — and I’m generally skeptical about democratization of science — but this concept isn’t “owned” by the discipline of anthropology or any other one. Anyone with a triple-digit IQ and inclination towards abstract thinking is fully entitled to form his own understanding of the matter.
That said, “cultural ecology” is saying the same thing I am, with slightly different wording. And yes, culture most definitely does have biological underpinnings, hereditary factors being shaped by external forces — it just isn’t reducible to biology alone.
While race doesn’t have a universally accepted definition — “partially inbred extended family” is one of the better ones — it is a biological reality. Not in the same way as a cell is, but a reality nonetheless.
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That said, “cultural ecology” is saying the same thing I am, with slightly different wording.
Well, if by “slightly different wording” you mean “they talk about NATURAL ENVIRONMENT and you talk about GENETICS”, then, yes.
But natural environment (ecology) is not the same thing as genes, now is it? African Americans, for example, live in different natural environment than people in Russia or Nigeria. They live in the same natural environment as white Americans. According to cultural ecology, black and white Americans should share the same culture*.
* I am aware America is huge, with lots of different environmental conditions. So according to cultural ecology, each of these conditions would make a different culture – but it would be the same for all people living in it, black or white.
While race doesn’t have a universally accepted definition — “partially inbred extended family” is one of the better ones — it is a biological reality.
No, it isn’t. Not in a way it’s defined today, anyway. You should know better than me that humans as species are way too genetically diverse to be put into 5-6 racial boxes that are define today. If we really want to define race as a biological fact, we must define thousands of them.
These 5-6 we have today are random and not based on any biological reality. They are cultural construct. You could make them differently. You could base them on eye colour. Or language. Or whatever.
If you’re Eastern European, then you know we consider people who are labeled “Hispanic” in the US as white, plain and simple. You know we consider ourselves equally white as WASPs. But Americans see things differently. If race – as defined today – was a biological fact, it would be impossible to consider one person white in one part of the world and non-white in another.
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Usagi,
Agreed. LOL, it’s crazy because alot of the feelings and thought you share are simalar to my own.
Well, I do see similarities when it comes to taste in men, though I’m not into goths.
People in America don’t understand the difference between culture and race.
Well, in their defense, the “term” race is way too complex to understand or define. There are as many definitions of culture as there are anthropologists, and present theories suggest there are as many cultures as there are humans.
What is important to understand culture is not some sort of an objective, real entity, that exists on its own, so people only adopt it or are socialized in it. Wrong. Culture is a construct, and people are constructing and reshaping it all the time. It exists only in this process of constant constructing and reshaping, and is always close connected to another extremely important anthropological term: identity.
Identities are easier to define than the culture, but are very complex for research. Identities are type of cultural constructs that are also always reshaped, over and over again, interpreted, adopted or denied. They can be personal or collective. But they are not any more real or set in stone than a culture is.
My race is black, but alot of black culture goes over my head.
Well, according to what I said above, there’s no such a thing as a black culture on its own; people interpret it and reshape it any way they want. And there’s no right or wrong way. The only problem you might have is the fact your construct is a bit different than that of the people around you.
Uncle Milton,
Thanks for the explanation on colleges. It’s still a bit confusing to me, but I think I get it better now.
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I wish Thad was here to correct me if I’m wrong (maybe Mira can) but I believe the most influential definition of culture in American anthropology is that of Clifford Geertz:
“… an historically transmitted pattern of meanings embodied in symbols, a system of inherited conceptions expressed in symbolic forms by means of which men communicate, perpetuate, and develop their knowledge about and attitudes toward life”
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Yes, his one seems to be popular. But one should never forget it’s just one of the way you can look at this issue.
Still, it’s a very important way to define the culture, because it emphasizes the importance of symbols.
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“But natural environment (ecology) is not the same thing as genes, now is it? African Americans, for example, live in different natural environment than people in Russia or Nigeria. They live in the same natural environment as white Americans. According to cultural ecology, black and white Americans should share the same culture*.
* I am aware America is huge, with lots of different environmental conditions. So according to cultural ecology, each of these conditions would make a different culture – but it would be the same for all people living in it, black or white.”
It would be this way were it not for unique historical conditions. Intermarriage was banned in many parts of the country between 1690 and 1967, creating social barriers between racial groups which in turn led to major cultural differences. Now there’s much more social interaction going on across racial lines, but still cultural distinctions are still there.Just check out the fascinating Beyond Black article.
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FG,
I was interpreting the situation based on cultural ecology. While I find that school of thought interesting, I do not think it can fully explain the culture, the way it’s shaped and constructed.
I do not think culture is necessarily outward adaptation to natural environment, though in cultural ecology defense, they did base their research on pre-modern societies, where the influence of the climate and ecology is the most important. These people rely on nature more than modern societies with high technology do.
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Abagond said: [Randy] – You are shifting your position. When it comes to YOUR children school quality DOES matter. “Demanding academic excellence” suddenly is no longer enough…”
Randy is always shifting his position and, consequently, always being exposed as a complete fraud.
Now, the irony of Randy quoting/invoking Condi Rice, inexplicably talking about “needs-based” affirmative action and having the nerve to pretend that it’s all in the name of fairness is the epitome of White race-fail.
I mean, seriously, how many times has some White person with clearly problematic views on race thought it was cute, neat, impressive, important or otherwise intelligent (and not idiotic) to enlist the help of some famous/infamous Black person during a debate with a Black poster as a way to add credibility to the White person’s position?
Answer: Times too numerous to mention.
The worst part of it is this:
“I am myself a beneficiary of a Stanford strategy that took affirmative action seriously, that took a risk in taking a young PhD from the University of Denver,” Rice said during a contentious May 1998 meeting of the Faculty Senate, referring to her initial hiring.
“I agree with [President Bush’s] position, which emphasizes the need for diversity and recognizes the continued legacy of racial prejudice, and the need to fight it”, “I believe that while race-neutral means are preferable, it is appropriate to use race as one factor among others in achieving a diverse student body,” Rice said.
“My own personal view is that there are circumstances in which it is necessary to use race as a factor among many factors in diversifying a college class”, “And so I’ve been a supporter of affirmative action that is not quota based and that does not seek to make race the only factor, but that considers race as one of many factors.”
“I was provost at Stanford. I’m on the record. I supported affirmative action. I don’t believe in quotas. I don’t believe in lowered standards, but I don’t believe that affirmative action means lowered standards. I think it means looking outside of formal networks to find people who might be equally capable.” (For more, follow the link.)
That’s what a highly successful black woman said, Randy — since the concept is “unpalatable” coming from us (Abagond and I, for example).
To be “fair” (and return the favor), I can also find a quote from a highly successful White man/woman and, since they are White-like-you, you’re obligated to concede the point because, using your apparent logic, as a White person you have to agree with other White person(s), especially highly successful White person(s).
Deal??
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@Mira:
While race doesn’t have a universally accepted definition — “partially inbred extended family” is one of the better ones — it is a biological reality.
No, it isn’t. Not in a way it’s defined today, anyway. You should know better than me that humans as species are way too genetically diverse to be put into 5-6 racial boxes that are define today. If we really want to define race as a biological fact, we must define thousands of them.
These 5-6 we have today are random and not based on any biological reality. They are cultural construct. You could make them differently. You could base them on eye colour. Or language. Or whatever.
No, you can’t. No single trait can define a race: it will always be present in different human populations, to a various degree. Serious studies of human biodiversity are being based on genetic clustering, which has been shown to broadly correspond to the definitions of races based on continental ancestry, and also to self-identification.
And yes (to counter the usual objection), these categories have fuzzy boundaries — which is to expected, since we’re all the same species — but that doesn’t affect their reality in any way.
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“Serious studies of human biodiversity are BEING based on genetic clustering, which has been shown to broadly correspond to the definitions of races based on continental ancestry, and also… blah …blah”
Notice how you will always hear of what is BEING done in HBD, or what is sure to be predicted, or what serious studies are now underway….
There is always some brainless zealot, standing at the edge of an amorphous blur of data, madly attempting to call the results of some harebrained minority study he’s heard about on The Steve Sailer Website. “Yes, even now, race is being determined to be the very thing that we thought that it was 100 years ago!”
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Barack Obama (you know, a highly successful Black man) said:
“As William Faulkner once wrote, “The past isn’t dead and buried. In fact, it isn’t even past.” We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist between the African-American community and the larger American community today can be traced directly to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools. We still haven’t fixed them, 50 years after Brown versus Board of Education. And the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.”
President Bill Clinton, a highly successful White man, said:
The purpose of affirmative action is to give our nation a way to finally address the systemic exclusion of individuals of talent on the basis of their gender, or race from opportunities to develop, perform, achieve and contribute. Affirmative action is an effort to develop systematic approach to open the doors of education, employment, and business development opportunities to qualified individuals who happen to be members of groups that have experienced long-standing and persistent discrimination.
President George W. Bush said (regarding post-Katrina NOLA):
“As all of us saw on television, there’s also some deep, persistent poverty in this region as well. That poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America. We have a duty to confront this poverty with bold action.”
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@King:
Here’s the study to which I referred.
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Agabond
I do not think whites are to blame for everything. I think they have little to do with black rates of illegitimacy and fatherlessness, for example.
I’ve wondered about this myself. I’m not entirely convinced there is no link between the deculturization that slavery caused and the fatherlessness of the present. Also, the traditional role of the father as provider and the challenges racism creates in filling that role probably plays a role as well.
Could black people do something about it fatherlessness? Sure. But is there an ancestral memory of strong black families in a history that is said to begin with slavery? How far can most black people trace their family tree? Why is that? Is there a sense of being a part of a long-standing institution, of having a family name to be continued? Aren’t many black people’s surnames the names of white people who owned their ancestors as property?
Any notion of family among african slaves was discouraged because that could have created a power base that might oppose white patriarchy. So the black family was under assault from the outset of the new world experience. I cannot help but make a link between the past and the present.
However, I do believe more black people should recognize stable families as a tool for empowerment and use it as such. However, I can’t be as gracious as you have been wrt to the effect of white supremacy on the black family unit.
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To Origin:
The figures for Out of Wedlock births for Black Americans increased dramatically after the civil rights era and were markedly lower in the 1940s through 1965. In 1940 OOW births for American Blacks were around 16%, they increased to roughly 20% by 1960 and were 23.6% in 1965.
http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/moynchapter2.htm
“Both white and Negro illegitimacy rates have been increasing, although from dramatically different bases. The white rate was 2 percent in 1940; it was 3.07 percent in 1963. In that period, the Negro rate went from 16.8 percent to 23.6 percent.”
They are now stabilized at around 69%.
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/1996/08childrenfamilies_akerlof.aspx
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Origin:
I agree with Uncle Milton on this one: the numbers are just not there. Racism against blacks was far worse in the 1950s and yet the black illegitimacy rate was far lower, lower than even the white rate is now. Also: the white rate has been going up too and yet whites experience very little racism.
If it were as simple as the destruction of the black family by slave owners and then later the hardships of racism, illegitimacy rates would be going down over time.
That does not disprove that racism is the root cause, just that if it is, it is not in any clear, direct way, like it is for job discrimination and unemployment.
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Not sure if I follow you on this Abagond. I think Origin’s comments may have some validity. Segregation was far worse in the 50’s along with racism which would have decreased the opportunity for illegitimacy. The fact that ALL rates of illegitimacy have being going up (Black as well as everyones else’s) points to shared commonality factors: opportunity, societal values , integration, travel etc..
Why should Black illegitimacy rates be expected to be falling given the prevailing existence of racism and the legacy of slavery’s past?
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Wow, if the whites were to get it that bad I’d hate to imagine what would be happening to the blacks, or would there be any left? Keep writing, you have a very fun and creative imagination.
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“You learn all the great things Chinese scientists and inventors have done,”
like what, Karoake? Nintendo? oh no, that was the Japanese.
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what is described above is not reverse racism, it’s just regular racism. Reverse racism is racism by the minority on the majority, hence “reverse.” So for that analogy, reverse racism would be if a chinese person went to a white neighborhood and was called a “chink,” making fun of chinese people in white comedies, enforcing the idea of “chinese guilt,” for conquering America.
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“like what, Karoake? Nintendo? oh no, that was the Japanese.”
Papermaking,printing,compass,gunpowder.I’m not chinese but even I knew this
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[…] […]
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It seems like both of these assertions have been turned on its head this year. I think no one would argue that people like Jeremy Lin was not a victim of the very sort of racism that is suggested in this blog. Even the top high school basketball player for the state of California could not get a single basketball scholarship.
My brother has always wanted to coach basketball at a 4-year university. He has tried for the past 25 years. He has had some limited success with community colleges and girls’ teams at 4-year religious colleges, but he learned that at the vast majority of universities he tried to get into, they preferred to hire black coaches, esp. ones where many of the players were black. Even if they cannot hire a black coach, they would still prefer a white one. He’s been told as much.
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^ By that time, England may be run by people of Asian Indian descent. Just maybe they might preserve more precious Anglo culture for the benefit of white people. But then again, they might be worse, shutting the door on white refugees from North America.
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^ Maybe in 2015 (although I am not sure given the UK’s attitude towards Eastern Europeans). But maybe not at all in 2215.
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Just as Native American cultures were displaced by foreign cultures, what is stopping England from being displaced by foreign cultures? We have many examples where some location was replaced by a succession of different cultures and peoples.
Who was in England before the Angles?
At the very least, it could end up like Hawaii.
The “Last Bastion” concept is only something a white nationalist would think about, so it is NOT something I would ponder.
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But it has already transpired in America.
Would it have been a good idea for the Native American peoples to get out of America when they were being invaded by Anglos and Spanish? If so, where?
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Ok, I see what you did here.
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@Kiwi,
For some reason, I think L of M is not kidding. Anyhow, the action of welcoming Native Americans (trying to preserve their culture overseas in France), would have to be something occurring over 200-300 years.
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@LofM
It is not completely digressing. The point is that we don’t have a record of Native Americans seeking asylum in France in the 1600s-1800s. Why would we expect white Anglo-Americans to seek asylum in England during the Chinese Invasion scenario in the 2000s-2200s?
Even if some attained asylum, most would not. England is in no position to accept 150 million immigrants in a short period. They would certainly close their doors.
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We don’t even need Chinese to invade the USA for the scenario to happen.
It could happen like this
– a revamp in the immigration laws to set quotas not by country, but by country population size. China would be allocated 20-25% of all immigration slots
– family reunification would not be subject to immigration quotas, so US citizens of Chinese descent could just go overseas to bring back a spouse.
This would quickly change the complexion of the USA. We could soon have 500,000 new Chinese coming to the USA every year, or over 50 million in a century. With procreation, we could have 100-150 million more Chinese in the USA after a century. This would make absolutely no dent in the Chinese population in China, but with white birth rates remaining low or falling, in 150-200 years, Chinese would outnumber whites in the USA.
Chinese would be the majority in several states in less than a century. They would vote for their kids to receive education in Chinese. They would own the major businesses and media outlets – which would switch over to Chinese language. Whites who did not learn Chinese could not get any decent paying job, and would get passed over for promotions anyhow.
Because it would be happening over 1-2 centuries, whites would not even notice until it is already too late. Whites started fleeing California 2 decades ago to settle into white American territories like Utah, Montana, Idaho, Colorado, etc. Arizona has banned Chicano and other studies and made English an Official language. They do this because they feel they are losing their culture. They will get hemmed in discrete communities in the interior West and Midwest.
When Chinese numbers exceed whites, this kind of stuff (language and ethnic study bans) will be overturned. Maybe in the course of 1-2 decades, they will all be overturned (about the length of time to overturn anti-miscegenation laws or anti-same sex marriage laws). They will buy the land from whites. Then, 150 million whites will suddenly panic, only to find there is nowhere else inside the country to flee, but no other country will be willing to take them in. By then, the skirmishes would be no more significant than Little Big Horn or Wounded Knee.
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This post is the reality for White South Africans, except replace Chinese in your post with blacks.
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