“How can it be racist if Asians do better?” is an argument White Americans use to prove that something is not racist.
Examples:
- IQ tests are not racist – Asians do better than whites.
- American society is not racist – Asians do better than whites.
- American health care is not racist – Asians live longer than whites.
- City schools are not racist – Asians go to them and do fine.
It might sound good, but:
- Some of these statements are not as true as they seem. I wrote posts on the two that I have looked into so far. In general, White Americans seem to know little about Asian American poverty or the black middle-class in their country, so in effect the Asian American middle-class is being compared to black poverty. The numbers, facts and images that get repeated are those that support that picture.
- Asian success does not prove there is no racism against them. Any more than the success of Tiger Woods, Barack Obama or Tyra Banks proves that they never faced racism. Or that Jewish success in Germany in the early 1900s proved that anti-Semitism was dead. Asian Americans succeed in spite of racism mainly because they have way more education on average than most white people (a side effect of immigration policy) – and because:
- Asians face less racism than blacks. For example, according to FBI numbers for 2009 whites are 7.8 times more likely to commit a hate crime against blacks than against Asians and Pacific Islanders – even after you take into account that there are more blacks.
- The model minority stereotype that goes with this sort of thinking is itself racist. But that is a subject for another post (see below for the link).
- Scientific racists use north-eastern Asians to support their own white racism. Yes. They twist facts to try to prove that the Chinese and Japanese do better on IQ tests. Why? Because that would mean IQ tests do not somehow favour the whites who made them. It would also support their ideas that Snow Makes You Smarter: that the cold weather in Europe and northern Asia evolved higher levels of human intelligence, leaving behind blacks as a backward branch of mankind.
Racism in America comes in part from the hang-ups white people have about people being “different”. So some of it will apply to anyone who looks “different”, who does not look pure European. That part applies to both blacks and Asians.
But part of the racism comes from the need to excuse the unfair advantages whites have in American society, something that grows out of their ugly, skinhead past of genocide, slavery and Jim Crow. That part applies more to blacks than to Asians.
That makes blacks a way bigger threat to white self-image – and tax rates – than Asians. Therefore whites need to think that there is something profoundly wrong with black people. Model minority Asians help to maintain that picture much better than the poor, violent Asian Americans ever could.
See also:
Asians are so successful that universities have put quotas to limit their numbers. I don’t think well be needing that with blacks any time soon.
I noticed that a truly capable people will always slip through the cracks in glass ceiling. Look at the Jews in Europe ; no matter how they tried to keep them down they kept finding ways to rise to the top. The same thing with Asian. Blacks on the other hand are the opposite; no matter how much you try to elevate them, they trickle downward again.
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@ dav
Two different ethnicities with two different histories when dealing with the West, and America in particular.
Two vastly different immigration policies, now and historically. And Asians area much smaller population in the U.S. and have a much higher percentage of recent immigrants.
That all makes a difference, dav. And I wouldn’t use Jewish success in Europe as your golden example. All that proves is that if you manage to escape the lesser racism of glass ceilings, you will only live to face more blatant exercises of it in genocide.
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Abagond… I think you’re unfairly generalizing White people in this regard, especially since on your blog the people promulgating this specific excuse of HBD nonsense are sometimes Asian themselves — and more importantly, White people in general do not make this rationalization. (Indeed, most of the time they just ignore Asian and Asian Americans, except in fetishized instances.)
It’d be more accurate to say that HBDers — mostly White, but of other races as well — often make the excuse, “How can it be racist if Asians do better?”
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Zek,
I think it’s all about the “three bears effect”. True, average Joe might not think about it that much, but it is incorporated in his culture anyway.
Also, it has a lot to do with the fact people fail to see “positive” stereotypes as racist (sexist, etc.) Black men are well endowed? How could be racist to say something like that: it’s a positive thing! <- I'm oversimplifying, but you get the idea.
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This is exactly what Jared Taylor of American Renaissance and his ilk do when justifying white supremacy and racial hierarchy by deflection and twisting the facts about Asians and Asian Americans. That’s disgusting to me.
La Reyna
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Ha! Some swords are double-edged. I might be giving White people too much credit but after Amy Chua flipped the script on them earlier this month, I’m thinking there are (well, there should be) quite a few Whites who are rethinking their model minority madness.
The WSJ published her piece with this headline:
Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
Needless to say, Chua caused quite a stir (there are over 7k comments on the article on WSJ), though she said the WSJ with that headline misrepresented her point. I wasn’t even paying attention but still heard the distant, yet loud , screeching sound of all the crushed egos and deflated psyches when the S-word (superior) brought right out in the open and with no deference or no direct-possessive-relationship to our White brothers and sisters.
Reminds me of James Baldwin’s “My Dungeon Shook” (a letter to his nephew, James)…
“[White people] have had to believe for so many years, and for innumerable reasons, that black men are inferior to white men. Many of them, indeed, know better, but, as you will discover, people find it very difficult to act on what they know. To act is to be committed, and to be committed is to be in danger. In this case, the danger, in the minds of most white Americans, is the loss of identity… the black man has functioned in the white man’s world as a fixed star, as an immovable pillar: and as he moves out of his place, heaven and earth are shaken to their foundations. “
Some commentaries about Chua’s piece and the fallout from it have highlighted White America’s particular sensitivity to associating the S-word with Asians especially with the rise of the next/this world economic powers China (and India).
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Racism is unquantifiable. When people attempt to prove or disprove it, they’re forced to triangulate an approximation using various metrics, all of which inevitably paint an incomplete picture.
I think the real lesson of asian success in America is that to the extent that racism may exist, it’s not a barrier to success. Asian folks now lead all demographics in personal income, family income, intact families, and educational attainment.
Anyone can achieve similar success if they apply themselves, regardless of whatever barriers may exist.
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The other thing is that in the late 19th and early 20th century whites thought Asians were intellectually inferior but now they try to say they are “smarter” when actually they are the same as everyone else, and this change up is more based on divide and conquer minorities.
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Racism in America comes in part from the hang-ups white people have about people being “different”. So some of it will apply to anyone who looks “different”, who does not look pure European. That part applies to both blacks and Asians.
You’re mostly right in this post but you’re focusing too much on looks when considering white attitudes. White people in America are much more concerned about people acting different. I’m talking about the hundred of little cultural differences in the way black people, Asian people and white people behave and react to things. It makes it difficult to read the other person and this causes anxiety. It’ll be over the tiniest things: “why are you looking at me like that”, “why didn’t you react to some gesture of mine the way I expected” etc. This is the main reason white people avoid black people in America and it reinforces a white “us and them” mentality. There’s a similar white attitude towards Asians but not nearly as strong.
When a white person encounters a black person, the white person assumes the other will “act black” and they will kind of tense up. This is where looks come in. But if the black person acts in a way that seems not too “black” (e.g. Obama), the white person will start to relax.
Of course this isn’t the only thing going on; white people look down on black people but not Asians so much. This is as you say because white people discount historical and racist reasons why black people might not be doing as well as white people and Asians.
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There is just a difference when it comes to who is let into this United States and for what reasons they are let in.
Mexicans, Guatemalans, and Nicaraguans, are let in en masse via a back door, in order to fill under the table, lower pay, lower skill, jobs. This is done intentionally, as they are close by and readily available.
Asians are farther away, and have been allowed into the U.S. at much smaller numbers, and with a much higher entry criteria. The Asian-American population is only at about 6% with a very large number of them as first and second generation immigrants (who tend to be ambitious in any ethnicity.)
Blacks have been in the U.S. since it was a colony. For many generations the only Blacks who were in the U.S. were here on a non-voluntary basis. The Black population was intentionally kept ignorant and was physically and mentally abused and intimidated by the majority society. This went on for centuries. Now, the 12% Blacks population presents a bit of a problem, because their culture still seem to be effected by the centuries of abuse.
People got here in different ways, for different reasons, and have had dramatically different experiences. Comparing them to one another, in simple terms, is a sport for… wait for it… DUMMIES like dav up there.
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Anyone can achieve similar success if they apply themselves, regardless of whatever barriers may exist.
Way too simplistic of a statement and, actually, rather odd. People in the USA profess all kinds of beliefs in freedom but for some reason your response which is not unlike that of a lot of people is the tender embrace of the opposite.
The idea, in essence, says that barriers are acceptable because people, “if they apply themselves”, can overcome them when the “American way” should be one of going all in to remove any and all barriers that limit people’s life choices in any way.
And its like Abagond’s observation regarding the unfair comparison between middle/upper class Asian-Americans vs. poor/working class African-American just went right over your head. To be clear, there are a number of middle/upper class African-Americans experiencing “similar success.” But that, frankly, isn’t the issue, again, because plenty of African-Americans, for example, have achieved in spite of barriers.
We already know this and it is basically a [Black] community
talking point.
Your statement is also so very simplistic in the US-American context given the facts about social/class mobility in this society especially the decreasing rates of upward mobility in the last couple of decades and that’s without calculating the recent/current recession. From the 2004 Economist article regarding the largely mythical idea of America meritocracy:
Take the study carried out by Thomas Hertz, an economist at American University in Washington, DC, who studied a representative sample of 6,273 American families (both black and white) over 32 years or two generations. He found that 42% of those born into the poorest fifth ended up where they started—at the bottom. Another 24% moved up slightly to the next-to-bottom group. Only 6% made it to the top fifth. Upward mobility was particularly low for black families. On the other hand, 37% of those born into the top fifth remained there, whereas barely 7% of those born into the top 20% ended up in the bottom fifth. A person born into the top fifth is over five times as likely to end up at the top as a person born into the bottom fifth.
Jonathan Fisher and David Johnson, two economists at the Bureau of Labour Statistics, looked at inequality and social mobility using measures of both income and consumption. They found that mobility “slightly decreased” in the 1990s. In 1984-90, 56% and 54% of households changed their rankings in terms of income and consumption respectively. In 1994-99, only 52% and 49% changed their rankings.
LJ, the error in your statement is that you’re acting like the exceptions should be the rule. Furthermore, your view is completely devoid of any real historical or reality context.
The 32 years covered in Hertz study takes us back to the early 70’s — a period in time when a hosts of systematic barriers against Blacks were just being removed. And we’re talking about the native-Black population which, among other things, continued to be stigmatized so much so that they (African-Americans) have been a major/main target of hate crimes, e.g. (to say nothing of all kinds of material/economic discrimination) when compared their dis-similar, perhaps, mostly immigrant Asian-American counterparts.
That 32 years also takes us back to a time period when for some reason the US incarceration rate skyrocketed:
From the 1920s to the early 1970s, the incarceration rate in the United States averaged 110 inmates per 100,000 persons. This rate of incarceration varied so little in the United States and internationally that many scholars believed the nation and the world were experiencing a stable equilibrium of punishment.1 But beginning in the mid-1970s, the U.S. incarceration rate accelerated dramatically, reaching the unprecedented rate of 197 inmates per 100,000 persons in 1990 and the previously unimaginable rate of 504 inmates per 100,000 persons in 2008.
No doubt, the so-called War on Drugs, has been instrumental in that and the Black community has been adversely impacted because of it. No matter what you think of this rather strange phenomenon with its curious timing, that kind of thing has a serious impact on real people lives and their community.
Likewise, the very essence of your statement is based not so much on individual will and drive but on the society in which we live. I think you wouldn’t be so quick to make that same statement if you were in a number of countries in the world and if you had a real respect for the way reality in the USA is different for different racial/ethnic groups you wouldn’t be so fast to pretend like the different barriers (different, in degree or kind) different groups are confronted with, which members of each group invariably overcome, are somehow the same.
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Zek:
The post says in the very first sentence:
““How can it be racist if Asians do better?” is an argument White Americans use to prove that something is not racist.”
There is nothing about ALL or MOST or even MANY whites. The post says nothing about how widespread or frequent the argument is. I make no such generalization. Because that is not something I know. But I do know that there are in fact whites who make it.
I do agree that HBDers push this argument the hardest and in its clearest-cut form. But the model minority stereotype goes way beyond their little circle to the mainstream American culture.
It SEEMS to me that MOST white Republicans (BUT NOT JUST THEM) have a general sense of “Look how well the Asians do! They come here with nothing, and they’re not even white! What’s wrong with blacks? It can’t be racism.”
But I have no hard numbers to back up that statement. It is merely a guess based on my own limited experience. Maybe most white Democrats believe it too but are just better at keeping their mouths shut on certain subjects.
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It’s true that the Asians who immigrate to the US are in many cases the “cream of the crop”, individuals who come here, say, to complete their PhD in nanotechnology. Still, I think the Asian populations must be doing something right. Just consider that northeast Asia is the only part of the non-European world that has lifted itself up to Western standards of living, though this process is still ongoing in China. If a particular group is conspicuously successful (Asians, Jews, Lebanese, etc.), the right thing to do is not to try to discount their success but to figure out what they are doing right and mimic their practices. Of course, if these advantages are of a genetic nature, that’s not going to be possible, but I doubt that hypothesis.
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“Look how well the Asians do! They come here with nothing, and they’re not even white! What’s wrong with blacks? It can’t be racism.”
With that line in particular… they are making the wrong argument.
The underlying assumption (and I’ve participated a number of on-line debates where someone White made the same argument, almost verbatim) is that African-Americans are making a mere economic, “have-nothing” argument when racism is cited. A number of Whites will also cite their own racial/ethnic ancestors and try to the same “they came here with nothing” argument but that one is more readily debunked due to the privilege of Whiteness the Irish, etc. acquired with successive generations.
Piggybacking off of King’s comments, there really is no group similar to African-Americans who, unlike Irish-Americans or Asian-Americans, aren’t part of some self-selected group of immigrants.
As King noted, African-Americans were “intentionally kept ignorant and was physically and mentally abused” for centuries. They were also intentionally kept away from their native culture(s) which, by itself, makes a mockery of the notion that Asian-Americans “come here with nothing.” If nothing else, “they come here” with a tremendous amount of stability in terms of the cultural floor of their own time-honored traditions, etc.
That’s obviously more than “nothing” especially considering how rather vocal groups of White Americans, past and present, make such a big deal out of what is taught in schools, in American history, etc.
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And yet, groups of African and Caribbean immigrants do just as well (and better) than Asians.
It’s not that these newer Black groups do not face prejudice, but like the Asian immigrants, they will do anything to overcome it.
However, for those who’s culture has been, for so long, permeated by the slow poison of abuse, the task proves much more difficult. It’ hard to believe that the bully who’s been beating you up for a couple of centuries can himself be beaten.
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To me it’s just another attempt on the part of whites to dismiss or deny their own racism. Any truth about their limited view of other races or ethnicities is immediately shunned or denied. Like I always say, to whites being called a racist is WORST than being called an Anti-Christ.
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How are taxes figured into this?
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“Like I always say, to whites being called a racist is WORST than being called an Anti-Christ.”
Well, I would not know, I am a heathen, selfconfessed pagan, so these christ things don’t mean that much to me.
But I would like to clarify one thing: which asians do it better? Indians or chinese? Pakistanis or tamils? Bangladeshi or daos? Who? Uzebeks or tadjiks? Samoyeds or uighurs? Han chinese or hmong, and might I add, white or black hmongs? Japanese or ainus? Or both? 😀
I find these sayings always very amusing, like: “hey, I’m not a racist, I just lump few billion people into one solid mass and stamp few stereotypes onto them!”
Asians do it better, yeah right…
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@king: right on the spot.
What many people forget is this very simple thing:
25 years ago it was 1985. 50 years ago it was 1960. 75 years ago it was 1945. 90 years ago it was 1920. 25 years before that it was 1895. And 25 years before that it was 1870. Another 25 years and we are in the year 1845. How many generations ago was that? Six, seven?
My mothers grandmother was born 1885. Her mother was born 1860’s. I met my great grandmother before she passed away. I talked to a person who was born few years after OK Corral shoot out in Tombstone. She was a young woman when Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid were shot in Bolivia. She was around thirty when Lenin and the bolsheviks launched their Russian revoltuion, when Emiliano Zapata was killed in Mexico. She was in her late thirties when Pancho Villa was shot in Mexico. I met her and talked to her.
Now, black families were broken tentionally, blacks were subjacated to all kinds of cruelties and slavery for few hunderd years in Americas. That is a fact. All that ended formally not so long ago. Racism was really tackeled publicly only in late 1950’s, early 60’s. How long ago was that?
I would like to see how well these “asians” would do, if their first, second, third, fourth, fifth and lets say sixth generations were slaves and after that they would be kicked out to handle themselves in the face of deeply ingrained cultural racism. How would these geniuses manage with no education, no money, no funds, no clothes?
Would they outscore white in schools, in their own schools that is, not in the same ones the whites are going? Would they surge to the top of the society from their ghettos were they would be forced to live in by institutional racism? Actually, how many leading american asians come from the China Towns of USA? Most of them? All fo them? According this argument, they all should. But do they??
If this argument would be right, then we must ask why the hell all those chinese lived confined to those TB infested China Towns for decades? After all, they were smarter than whites and blacks…
And yes, lets not forget the tamils. How many of them are thriving in American society? How many tamils are among the top scorers? They should be there since they asians too!
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“Look how well the Asians do! They come here with nothing, and they’re not even white! What’s wrong with blacks? It can’t be racism.”
To pick up on what Sam said, the above statement is only possible because white people think all Asians are alike.
They remember all the “Asians” who fled to America after the Vietnam War and they see the “Asian” doctors and engineers and rich businessmen – but they are almost never the same people! Or even come from the same countries!
Most Cambodians, for example, came to America with little money or education or knowledge of English and while some have done well, most are doing worse than blacks.
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Imagine if America was built by Chinese slave labour and most of the Africans that were allowed into the country were doctors and engineers and university students, though some poor Africans were allowed in after America’s misadventures in the Angolan War. Would it then be right to to say:
“Look how well the Africans do! They come here with nothing, and they’re not even white! What’s wrong with the Chinese? It can’t be racism.”
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Nquest said: “The idea, in essence, says that barriers are acceptable because people, “if they apply themselves”, can overcome them when the “American way” should be one of going all in to remove any and all barriers that limit people’s life choices in any way.”
It’s not that barriers are acceptable, rather that nobody knows to what extent they may actually exist, and if they do they’re surmountable.
FG said:“If a particular group is conspicuously successful (Asians, Jews, Lebanese, etc.), the right thing to do is not to try to discount their success but to figure out what they are doing right and mimic their practices.”
The recipe for success appears to be rather straightforward: invest heavily in your children’s education.
My wife grew up with a so-called “chinese tiger mother”. The minimum passing grade in her house was an “A”. Sometimes the only food they had was rice and whatever fruit they could forage or birds they could kill with a slingshot, since paying for books and school fees came first. This emphasis on education enabled my wife and her siblings to escape 3rd world poverty and emigrate to various western countries.
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“Imagine if America was built by Chinese slave labour…”
Well, there was a great deal of what amounts to indentured servitude going on. How did the US come to have railroads? Impoverished Chinese laborers sent here in the 19th century, exploited, treated as less than human, etc.
The excuse that Asian (by which Americans, white AND black, generally mean Chinese or Japanese) immigrants do “better” because they have only come to the US recently, and then only as engineers and other members of the white collar classes is a load of bollocks. Asian immigrants traditionally, and even today, come here as impoverished as any other group. It’s just that we hear far more about the minority of Asian immigrants who come here with degrees and money in hand. Why? Because it absolves wealthier Americans from having to think about unpleasantness AND allows black Americans to cling to their beloved identity as the most oppressed group (as though there’s a prize for that). Few think to visit a non-tourist Chinatown and witness the squalid living conditions, or care to investigate the network of bus lines that transport Chinese workers from one city to another as interchangeable labor for near-slave wages. This of course, is to say nothing of the impoverished Cabodian and VietNamese populations scattered throughout the US.
Attempting to dismiss “Asian” achievement as merely the result of recent immigration (not true) and upper class immigration (also not true) is to deny the travails of Asian-Americans and is quite as racist as using the “Asians do better” trope to deny that racism exists. So, in addition to the well-worn advice to “check your white privilege,” I’d advise those who imagine that the US has made life for Asian-Americans a cakewalk should check their “American privilege.” Asian-Americans don’t fit the outdated black/white binary notion of race and are therefore left out of American discussions on race. It’s about time to stop clinging to the mantle of oppression and admit that it is not the sole province of black Americans, nor is it solely white Americans who hold racist attitudes.
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Ayah:
You sound like you are disagreeing with me, but I pretty much said the same thing in the post:
“In general, White Americans seem to know little about Asian American poverty or the black middle-class in their country, so in effect the Asian American middle-class is being compared to black poverty.”
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I don’t know if I’m repeating here, but I’m pretty sure it’s not just economic factors that make the statement not work in reality. The fact that in the US blacks lives were controlled 100% by whites, then later on were “freed” physically but still being controlled by white laws and social rules, and then flash forward to now where blacks are still under varying levels of control by a white dominated society that believes it’s fair to all. Asians have a different history with whites in the US. Whites never successfully went into China, Korea, Japan and overtook anything. Look at various countries in Africa, though, and see that wherever whites enslaved and tried to strip culture, there is a disparity that looks remarkably like the US at some point in time.
The difference? It’s history. Whites never were able to conquer Asia and maintain dominance. Therefore the sense of superiority that dominance gives was not carried forward. Whites believed that Asians outsmarted them, basically. THAT legacy comes forward. To this day American whites believe that Asians are intellectually superior. But blacks do not have that history. Whites still maintain control over the way BP as a group can see themselves (by control of government, TV, and media).
I fully expect the Asian stereotype to change in the US (not in a good way) in the coming future due to the way we perceive China’s attempts to gain dominance in the global market.
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Appearance, as it was brought up in the original post, plays the role of being a marker for WP, an indication of difference that sets off those stereotypes in the mind. Blacks and Asians simply cannot get around that with whites. But I rarely if ever hear whites talking about “Hispanic features” because whites see Hispanics as mostly European featured people. So what do whites go after when they feel threatened by a growing Hispanic population? Language. The problem isn’t really not being able to understand this language, it’s that this language is 2nd most popular in the US – thus, threatening the livelihood of English in the average white American mind.
Take a look at Mexican immigration to the US for the true nature of when whites feel threatened by another group. How is it that we have painted Mexicans as lazy AND as “taking all ‘our’ jobs”? Well, when whites were tourists to Mexico, they observed what looked like laziness. But now that Mexicans are coming to the US for work – not so lazy anymore…. Now the group is large and threatening so we need to pull out what we can to maintain dominance. So we make fun of some things, but mostly we attack language. We’re defensive about the use of Spanish in an English-speaking country. In one breath we’re “a melting pot,” the next breath we’re whining about having to “press 1 for English.” This is how whites can also get the support of blacks and other English-speakers in the country to help maintain dominance.
Asians speak many different languages so whites in the US can continue poking at the superficial dominance of looking different.
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@victoria: I have no doubt it will happen if and when US gets back on its feet and tries to compete with China, which by the way is breaking all the international agreements on copyrights etc. and still is OK by most white americans. Go figure…
Well, no need. It is the old Truth: Money talks and Bullshit walks.
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Victoria said: “Look at various countries in Africa, though, and see that wherever whites enslaved and tried to strip culture, there is a disparity that looks remarkably like the US at some point in time.
The difference? It’s history. Whites never were able to conquer Asia and maintain dominance. Therefore the sense of superiority that dominance gives was not carried forward.”
The Philippines were colonized by Spain in the mid-1500’s and did not gain independence from foreign domination until 1946, some 400 years later. Abagond wrote a post recently about historical US racism towards Filipinos.
Despite this, US Filipinos have a 77% higher rate of college degree attainment than the US average, and have a 68% higher household income than the US average (according to 2004 figures).
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Randy:
Most of the people America lets in from the Philippines are those with a good education and their families, particularly nurses. And most of that educational attainment was done in the Philippines, not in America.
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@abagond
I was actually responding more to some commenters who seem to imply that Asian-Americans have mostly arrived in the US with white collar jobs waiting for them-all in the last 50 years or so.
Should have made myself clearer, sorry.
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I happen to agree with Ayah. My mom immigrated from the Philippines to Canada in the late ’60 and she worked as a sewing machine operator for a garment factory; not what you’d call a white collar job. She sent money back home to put her siblings through school. She made a lot of sacrifices, but in the end, it was worth it. Her siblings became nurses. However, the jobs were so scarce for nurses that my aunts and uncles left to go abroad. One uncle, (yes, I said uncle) was a nurse in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia for a couple of years until he immigrated to Michigan. He wasn’t handed a nursing job on arrival. In fact, his nursing qualifications and experience were barely considered due to his education attainment came from the Philippines. He took a job as an orderly and recently finished his Nursing Licensure exam and passed.
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Randy: It’s not that barriers are acceptable, rather that nobody knows to what extent they may actually exist, and if they do they’re surmountable.
Again, the essence of your statement is that the barriers, surmountable as the are — even though you claim “nobody knows to what extent they… exist” (a contradiction in terms) — are acceptable. And you are making the wrong argument.
You’re connecting whatever people say about the barriers to the idea of whether they are surmountable or not which is an out-molded, stuck-in-the-past mode of argument. It is also an argument that’s beside the point and, indeed, an argument that has no substantive point.
I do recall saying:
“…plenty of African-Americans, for example, have achieved in spite of barriers.
We already know this and it is basically a [Black] community
talking point.”
So there is something about the way you think about these things that has you making these strange equations that acknowledging the existence of barriers (which, suddenly, you want to suggest “may” not exist) equals a mindset that such barriers are insurmountable.
“Nobody” has ever communicated that. That equation is a straw-man of your creation and, consequently, is the reason why you are making the wrong argument.
Dr. King addressed this simplistic, dismissive mindset of yours way back in 1967:
“…the absence of brutality and unregenerate evil is not the presence of justice.”
So you can straw-man this all you want but you will always be missing the point and saying stuff that the people conscious and knowledgeable regarding the existence AND the extent of the existence of said barriers already take into account.
Apparently we must be talking over your head and/or you’re not reading to contribute to this level of conversation.
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Ayah: Attempting to dismiss “Asian” achievement…
Well, frankly, there is quite a bit of information which supports the position of Abagond and others here (one source here). Even leigh204’s post, unwittingly, supported Abagond’s position.
Leigh mentioned an uncle who was already a nurse prior to immigrating to the US — i.e. he was already professionally trained. Abagond merely notes that [white] people make absurd “model minority” arguments comparing someone like Leigh’s uncle, not with their African-American counterparts (like the best man in my wedding who is an RN), but with poor/lower class Blacks. And that’s the issue here.
Sure, Leigh’s uncle took time to adjust to the US and wasn’t handed a job upon arrival but he did, indeed, come here with a professional skill set that he was able to turn into a decent paying nurse job after he was able to, get on his feet and support himself with lower paying jobs and do what? Take a test for a nursing license — the knowledge of which, from what we know, all came here with him.
It’s Asian-Americans like that, the few that White people (who make these “model minority” arguments) claim they know, that becomes ALL Asian-Americans to them when, as Abagond mentioned, poor/lower class Blacks factor as the ONLY Black people they reference in the model minority arguments used to dismiss the existence of any racism.
And speaking about being dismissive:
Abagond said: “Imagine if America was built by Chinese slave labour…”
Ayah said: “How did the US come to have railroads?”
It seems pretty clear to me that Abagond was invoking the entire slavery experience in America which we all know Asian-Americans did not experience even though they were, indeed, exploited workers in the period you referenced.
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To Victoria:
The difference? It’s history. Whites never were able to conquer Asia and maintain dominance. Therefore the sense of superiority that dominance gives was not carried forward.”
Japan and Thailand were the only countries in Asia that were never colonized. Korea was not colonized by a Western power they were colonized Japan as was Taiwan. Plenty of evidence to suggest that the colonization of Korean was quite harsh. (Forced prostitution, forced labor, etc..)
One can correctly state that China was never fully colonized (just the most populous and hence most enriching areas..) but multiple foreign powers (Japan, Britain, Russia especially..) held sway over the country for more than a hundred years. Wars fought against the foreign powers (or civil wars resulting from their internal interference..) killed more 60 million people in the 19th century and roughly 30 million in the 20th century. Colonization in Malaysia started 400 years ago… French colonization of Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia lasted almost 100 years. British control of India lasted around 100 years. (their involvement in parts of India as well as Portuguese settlements go back 300 years..)
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To my shame and laziness I skipped most of the posts for which I apologize, but….
As a non-american I think the 19th century european view of racial hierarchy still plays a part, namingly the colonialistic caterogies of races: that only white race is able to progress and evolve culturally, yellow race is able to uphold civilization, and the black race is corrupting civilization.
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Thanks Uncle Milton, that really puts things in perspective.
There was no walk in the park for the Asians.
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Nquest said: “You’re connecting whatever people say about the barriers to the idea of whether they are surmountable or not which is an out-molded, stuck-in-the-past mode of argument. It is also an argument that’s beside the point and, indeed, an argument that has no substantive point.”
Abagond did not list any specific barriers, rather his point was that the relative success of asians in America does not mean that one can accurately infer that such barriers do not exist. It’s a fair point.
So these barriers may or may not exist. My comment is that even if they did exist, they haven’t kept American asian folks from rising to the top as ranked by key metrics. The commenter dav pointed out that in the education market, asians have been so successful they’re now actually discriminated against in order to prevent their complete dominance of top university admissions.
While Abagond is correct that asian success does not prove a lack of racism, it does reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this racism can possibly be even if it does exist. Such speculative estimations as these are necessary given a lack of actual evidence regarding anti-asian discrimination.
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Uncle Milton:
Victoria was talking just about American whites and just about China, Japan and Korea:
“Asians have a different history with whites in the US. Whites never successfully went into China, Korea, Japan and overtook anything.”
I think her point was that White Americans think more highly of the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese because in American history they were much harder to take advantage of or defeat in war than, say, Mexico or West Africa. She was NOT talking about whether any of the countries in Asia were colonized by anyone ever. Something both you and Randy misunderstood in the same way for some reason.
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Mock Randy said:
“While Abagond is correct that the fact of runaway slaves does not prove a lack of slavery, it does reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this slavery can possibly be even if it does exist. Such speculative estimations as these are necessary given a lack of actual evidence regarding slavery.”
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To Abagond:
I going off of what Victoria said:
Whites never successfully went into China, Korea, Japan and overtook anything.
Maybe she can clarify her statement … but as it stands it’s false.
The Japanese were defeated and occupied by the Americans. Their laws and constitution were rewritten by the same and by treaty they were and are limited in their ability to produce armaments and to deploy troops outside of Japan.
Hong Kong was part of the British empire for 150 years. Every war by the Chinese in the 19th century against the Japanese and European powers ended in a loss. The main reason a single entity didn’t control China is that the foreign powers didn’t want to go to war with each other.
South Korea was most assuredly heavily controlled by the US for around 30 years… luckily starting in the 80s they moved away from dictatorship to full fledged democracy.
they were much harder to take advantage of or defeat in war..
I doubt many White Americans think Afghans are easily defeated in war or easily controlled but I don’t think this leads to a general form of respect either.
I would suggest Victoria do a poll of the Whites she knows (get a cross spectrum of age and class..) and ask them what they think of Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese people and why. I doubt the ability to win or lose against them in warfare will figure much into the equation.
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People are generally referring to NE Asians in IQ studies. I’m sure white supremacists would love to devise an IQ test where Asians performed below whites, but no such test exist to my awareness. Let’s just admit that NE Asians are kicking all of our asses and will be be the majority of the world’s scientists and engineers in a few decades if they aren’t already. I don’t think that’s model minority stereotyping, it’s just true.
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Abagond,
Your last comment is rather uncharitable, don’t you think? Slavery has an obviousness that alleged contemporaneous discrimination against asian people in America does not. My wife and most of her friends are FOB emigrants, and I’ve yet to hear any stories of widespread or institutional bias.
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So these barriers may or may not exist.
—————————– VS. ———————–
The commenter dav pointed out that in the education market, asians have been so successful they’re now actually discriminated against
—————————– VS. ———————–
Such speculative estimations as these are necessary given a lack of actual evidence regarding anti-asian discrimination.
Randy, please step away from the profusely convoluted, self-contradicting gobbledygook. Abagond’s mockery of your sophomoric sophistry shows how utterly ridiculous your sorry argument is. But at least you apparently think that nonsense sounds good.
My comment is that even if they did exist, they haven’t kept American asian folks from rising to the top
And your comment continues to be beside that point — a BS straw-man argument if there ever was one.
While Abagond is correct that asian success does not prove a lack of racism, it does reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this racism can possibly be
How “encumbering” racism is, isn’t the issue. The fact that it represents any degree of a burden is the ultimate issue.
What part of freedom (i.e. the absence of arbitrary/unnecessary burdens) don’t you understand?
And since your lack of understanding rears its ugly head…
While Abagond is correct that asian success does not prove a lack of racism, it does reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this racism can possibly be
It must be pointed out how bankrupt your argument here is. The untenable assumption in your swiss-cheese statement above is the ahistorical, demonstrably false idea that racism against Asian-Americans and, in this case, African-Americans is the same, exists to the same degree, etc., etc., etc.
But, go ahead, stick to repeating the same mindless clap-track you’ve been spewing. It’s clear you can’t reasonably address the actual arguments against your simplistic and, to say the least, obviously flawed “comments.”
The least you can do is make up your mind and figure out what you want to argue. You started out trying to say racism is insignificant because Asian-American success proves whatever barrier this monolithic racism, that exists only in your simplistic mind, can be overcome. With repeated posts after that, you’ve tried desperately with all the mealy you could stuff in your mouth to claim that racism (again, something that’s monolithic in your mind — occurring and impacting different groups in the same exact way, to the same exact degree) doesn’t really exist.
The counterargument to your position is already in the record, readily illustrating how the experience with racism in the US by Asian-Americans and African-Americans is, in fact, different in degree and kind.
In the opening commentary, Abagond referenced the different rates/degree of hate crimes African-Americans and Asian-Americans experience making your conclusion regarding how encumbering racism DOA because of your faulty assumption that the racism experience by the two groups is monolithic in nature and impacts them in the exact same way, to the exact same degree. Your position is, by that small note alone, lacking in support.
In the comments, Abagond invoked the obvious historical difference in the experience of the two groups with racism in the US — the centuries long history of race-slavery and the enduring, unique stigma that history has represented for African-Americans.
Further, the fact the Asian-Americans who have achieved so much success still experience racism whether it be the result of the hate crimes Abagond mention or the admission quotas which, as you suggested, does indeed place artificial limits on Asian-Americans… Well, that’s proof that, once again, you’re all too comfortable, way too accepting of racism against non-whites.
Again, what part of freedom don’t you understand?
Why is your argument that anti-Asian admissions quotas is proof that racism is insignificant and not that any degree of racism is unacceptable and proof enough that Asian-Americans are denied rightful access to what they are qualified for (which, by definition, means that such racism is “encumbering” – i.e. hindering them from “complete dominance of top university admissions”)?
Something is seriously wrong with your mentality. You want to dismiss and disregard the significance of racism so bad that significant “complete dominance” anti-Asian admissions quotas represent something you’re basically calling non-discriminatory-discrimination.
I guess Asian-Americans should only be so successful in your view. Back when it was Jews who were subjected to admissions quotas, this weird parsing you’re doing was seen for what it was just as the anti-Jewish quotas were seen for what they were. Proof, again, that the racism experience by Blacks and Asian-Americans is different, yet, a fact of life for both groups with plenty of evidence you’re apparently bound to ignore.
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Randy: Abagond, Your last comment is rather uncharitable, don’t you think? Slavery has an obviousness that alleged contemporaneous discrimination against asian people in America does not.
I beg to disagree. It’s clear that you didn’t follow the analogy.
Abagond mention runaway slaves (and he could have also referenced the relative ‘success’ of free/freed Blacks). The analogy holds because the attempt to make the exception (or the exceptional) the rule in the case of the select group of Asian-Americans who [white] people try to make into the model minority. Abagond, of course, did note that all Asian-American groups don’t fit the stereotype. That should be as obvious as the runaway/free Black situation but it doesn’t fit the racist frame.
We’re not responsible for what is or is not obvious to people trying to find an excuse or rationale for their racism.
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@ tulio
Much love to Asians,
but only a fool thinks he can predict the future based on IQ tests. Who would have thought that the ignorant horde of stinking Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Franks, and Lombards would someday be wearing three-piece suits and running the corporate empires that control the world today?
Nobody knows who will be running what in the future. Have enough intelligence to know that you don’t know.
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I should add that we’re also not responsible for people who accept or otherwise repeat/regurgitate the racist “model minority” myth. We’re not responsible for people reflexively repeating age-old racist frames without taking a second to reflect on how obviously bunk the whole line of argument is.
I mean, since slavery is so obvious as you say… then the Asian-Americans as the “model-minority” for African-Americans argument is obviously wrong-headed to begin with.
And notice how Asian-Americans are never the “model” for White American even when they claim they are discriminated against by affirmative action. I’d love to see where you, Randy, have argued that affirmative action is not “racism” as opponents of AA have claimed because Asian-American success proves so-called “reverse racism” as non-existent or effectively insignificant.
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^^^
I’m basing my statements off of what I’m observing now with my own eyes. The growth in NE Asia since WWII has been mind-boggling. S Korea was practically a 3rd world country just a few decades ago, now look. Every since China started incorporating capitalism into it’s economic model, it now seems to be where S. Korea was a few decades back. The rise of NE Asia is a leader in science in technology is about as sure a bet as it gets.
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What you are observing now is not worth a hill of beans. There is not an absolute path to the future based on what is observable today. History is fraught with surprises. It’s not what you see that will so profoundly shape the future but that which you don’t see, don’t even suspect, and can’t understand until it happens.
Don’t be so sure that your crystal ball of the present has all the answers. You can see SOME of the possibilities, but not even close to all of them.
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To King:
but only a fool thinks he can predict the future based on IQ tests. Who would have thought that the ignorant horde of stinking Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals, Franks, and Lombards would someday be wearing three-piece suits and running the corporate empires that control the world today?
Did you ever read Germania by Tacitus (a Roman historian who live in the 1st and 2nd century..)? He praised the Germans and wistfully compared their “robustness” with what he considered was a weak, pleasure-loving Roman aristocracy.
Granted he probably didn’t envision three piece suits.
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Randy Garver(a month ago):
While I personally feel that affirmative action is corrosively racist (and ultimately works to the detriment of minorities), I wouldn’t suggest that its beneficiaries are fraudulent, nor would it be fair to say that none of them have worked hard.
Ha! Ha!
Funny how *we* (read: you) see racism where [you] want to. Of course, the existence of said “corrosively racist” affirmative action is something I doubt you have ever provided any real proof and, as I noted in my last post, I doubt you have ever argued that the success of Asian-Americans places either the existence or the significance of said ‘corrosive racism’ into question
Real funny Randy. Real funny.
Also, I’m sure you’ll agree that said “corrosive racism” isn’t “encumbering” to whoever the victims of that racism happen to be in your mind.
And its funny how you were all emphatic and committed to the idea of affirmative-action = racism against non-‘minorities’, I assume (your concern-trolling about “the detriment to minorities” aside). Its funny because when the discussion is about racism experienced by African/Asian Americans your rather certain and strong adjective-description (“corrosive”) or any similarly descriptive adjective is conspicuously absent.
Why is that?
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Randy:
I agree with Nquest: you are not even hearing yourself talk.
At 03:58 GMT you said:
“Your last comment is rather uncharitable, don’t you think? Slavery has an obviousness that alleged contemporaneous discrimination against asian people in America does not. My wife and most of her friends are FOB emigrants, and I’ve yet to hear any stories of widespread or institutional bias.”
Yet four hours before at 00:00 GMT you seemed to agree with dav when you said:
“The commenter dav pointed out that in the education market, asians have been so successful they’re now actually discriminated against in order to prevent their complete dominance of top university admissions.”
So at 00:00 GMT Asians are “now actually discriminated against” by top universities.
Yet at 03:58 GMT “discrimination against asian people” is “alleged” and lacks “obviousness” and you have “yet to hear any stories of widespread or institutional bias” (and therefore my analogy was “uncharitable”).
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@ Uncle Milton
Yes, in fact. Tacitus was a bit of a romantic (pun intended) with a soft spot for the barbarians, but a thousand years of almost continual defeat at the hands of the Roman legions tells quite a different tale of “Germanic robustness.”
Don’t get me wrong, they were brave enough, but hopelessly outmatched and ignorant to the higher arts of war.
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^^ That is until they learned better techniques as a result of being trounced for centuries. They improved their tactics and weaponry as a direct result of their long-term contact under the boot Rome.
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Uncle Milton,
Tacitus did “praise” Germans, but not because of Germans, but not because of his high opinion on them, but because he wanted to send Romans a message on morality. It’s an early example of a “noble savage” story: picking a foreign, “exotic” group that has different cultural norms (norms that your culture considers, well, barbaric, and therefore closer to true human nature) in order to teach your culture a lesson.
Similarly, European authors often pointed – and they still do – at how certain groups, Native Americans for example, are close to nature, proud but strong, noble, etc etc. (It started in XVII century, Robinson Crusoe being and early example, but continues to this day – have you seen movie “Avatar”?) In any case, the goal is not understanding, or even a respect for said culture, but sending your culture a message – we were like this once (at our primitive stage), and while we are better today, we’ve lost some edge (or pride, or touch with nature, or whatever is seen as a desirable thing), and look at them, those savages still have it! We must re-examine our culture and possibly get back to this glorious trait (but without losing other advantages of our superior culture, of course!)
It’s not true admiration and respect of said culture: there’s still a patronizing attitude and you still see them as inferior to you.
In short, Tacitus wasn’t admiring Germans; he was criticizing Roman aristocracy.
So no, there was no true respect for Germans in Roman empire. Tacitus may or may not find them interesting, and he might even have had sympathy for them, but Romans did not respect Germans, those ugly, violent, stupid barbarians.
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Nquest and Abagond,
For the sake of discussion, “discrimination” can be logically divided into several broad forms. The first type, predominantly discussed on this site, consists of officially unsanctioned prejudice by one group against another group.
The second type, of which affirmative action is a member, consists of state-sponsored (or at least state-approved) partiality on behalf of an alleged weaker group at the expense of a stronger group.
The discrimination which asians face in university admissions is of the affirmative action type. It’s probably safe to say that when Abagond is discussing anti-asian racism in these particular posts, he’s not referring to various species of AA, and so neither am I.
It’s a distinction of conversational nomenclature, not principle.
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Nquest said: : “How “encumbering” racism is, isn’t the issue. The fact that it represents any degree of a burden is the ultimate issue.
What part of freedom (i.e. the absence of arbitrary/unnecessary burdens) don’t you understand?”
A completely non-prejudicial society has probably never existed and probably never will. Perfection cannot be attained and shouldn’t be held as a marker of progress.
Nquest said: :”Further, the fact the Asian-Americans who have achieved so much success still experience racism whether it be the result of the hate crimes Abagond mention or the admission quotas which, as you suggested, does indeed place artificial limits on Asian-Americans… Well, that’s proof that, once again, you’re all too comfortable, way too accepting of racism against non-whites.
Again, what part of freedom don’t you understand?”
You seem to be a strong opponent of affirmative action, as am I. I look forward to hearing your further thoughts on the matter.
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@uncle milton:
“The main reason a single entity didn’t control China is that the foreign powers didn’t want to go to war with each other.”
I disagree on this. Colonial powers had no problem for colonial wars in Africa or in Latin America, so I do not think they would’ve had any scrucbles to do so in China if they could. I think they simply recognized that they could not beat China totally. It was easier to control some strategic towns and places and leave the rest be. There was enough money to made this way too.
Japanese knew that americans would go away one day and infact the japanese rise for economic power was partly fueled by the idea of revenge on americans. They knew they could not beat americans with weapons but they knew they could beat US with economical competition. Which they did, by the way.
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Sam:
I disagree on this. Colonial powers had no problem for colonial wars in Africa or in Latin America..
If I remember my history correctly.. the wars in the Americas, Africa, and the Pacific between colonial powers occurred before the foreign powers split up China. Towards the middle of the 19th century diplomacy seemed to keep most such warfare between the powers in check. Even so, there was a fairly major war between two foreign powers the Russo-Japanese War. We are in agreement that the imperial were mostly focused on what they considered to be the richest areas.
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To Sam:
Japanese knew that americans would go away one day and infact the japanese rise for economic power was partly fueled by the idea of revenge on americans.
Well US troops are still stationed in Japan.. as for the notion of revenge against Americans Would you say the German economic rise after WWII was based upon revenge or a desire for a general prosperity for it’s people…? I would say the latter for the Germans and also the Japanese.. stating that Japanese desire for economic prosperity for their country was based upon a desire for revenge upon Americans sounds like something that would be uttered by a pretty nasty racist. I am sure you can find reactionary rightist Japanese and American authors who interpret things that way but for the most part I think that is incorrect.
They knew they could not beat americans with weapons but they knew they could beat US with economical competition. Which they did, by the way.
The American government wanted West Germany and Japan to have prosperous societies as a counter point to the USSR. As for the US being beaten by Japan in an economic war..? The Japanese have certainly done very well economically since WWII. However they have twice the debt per capita as the US, have slipped behind China in GDP, and have had a declining property and stock market for 20 years and have a declining population. You call that winning economically…?
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To Mira:
Tacitus did “praise” Germans, but not because of Germans, but not because of his high opinion on them, but because he wanted to send Romans a message on morality.
I have heard that as an interpretation but I have heard arguments against that also. It’s been 30 years since I had read much Roman history.. I did some more reading… I believe what I was seeking had been written by Caesar my point to King earlier was that the Romans did see the Germanic tribes as a potential threat to Rome itself. (Which proved to be true later on…)
To King:
Yes, in fact. Tacitus was a bit of a romantic (pun intended) with a soft spot for the barbarians, but a thousand years of almost continual defeat at the hands of the Roman legions tells quite a different tale of “Germanic robustness.”
The Gauls were defeated by Caesar but I had thought that the area east of the Rhine and North of the Danube was never really effectively controlled by Rome. (Although there had been alliances with these tribes and Rome had won several battles..) Rome’s desire to expand further into the territory of Germanic tribes was reassessed after their defeat at the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest.
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This stuff about Tacitus and WWII is getting off topic. I will delete future comments on it that are not tied back to racism and Asians.
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Randy said:
“The discrimination which asians face in university admissions is of the affirmative action type. It’s probably safe to say that when Abagond is discussing anti-asian racism in these particular posts, he’s not referring to various species of AA, and so neither am I. “
I most certainly do regard quotas against Asians as racist, as this post should make clear:
If Asians controlled admissions at top universities, then a quota AGAINST Asians would be wise and admirable since otherwise they would unwittingly favour other Asians. But when white people have a quota AGAINST Asians it is neither wise nor admirable since it is merely self-serving.
You yourself called it discrimination. And, if I remember correctly from your comments about black affirmative action, you see that as unfair too.
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Randy said:
“My wife and most of her friends are FOB emigrants, and I’ve yet to hear any stories of widespread or institutional bias.”
I suppose it is possible for an FOB Asian to come to America and never experience racism, but given how you talk here, I think it is far more likely that you have heard plenty of stories but found reasons to dismiss each one. Or they simply gave up talking to you about it because it is like talking to a wall – which is how you come off here, at least to me.
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Abagond said:
“I suppose it is possible for an FOB Asian to come to America and never experience racism, but given how you talk here, I think it is far more likely that you have heard plenty of stories but found reasons to dismiss each one.”
Your comment suggests that you would be genuinely surprised if the former were the case.
FOB emigrants tend to be more optimistic than native-born Americans from what I’ve observed, and seem to have a deeper belief in the traditional concept of “The American Dream”. Compared to the trials and tribulations experienced in her home country, life in America has been a walk in the park, according to my wife. A comment I hear again and again is “people here don’t seem to realize how unbelievably good they have it.”
If you doubt my objectivity, I’d encourage you to find out for yourself first hand. Health care centers tend to employ a large number of recent asian emigrants from a wide variety of nationalities. I’m sure you could find plenty of folks there who would be willing to discuss their experiences with you.
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Randy said:
“Compared to the trials and tribulations experienced in her home country, life in America has been a walk in the park, according to my wife. A comment I hear again and again is “people here don’t seem to realize how unbelievably good they have it.””
I do not see what comparing Third World poverty with America has to do with whether or not Asians experience racism in America itself. But it is a bit odd that you should bring that up because that is just how whites used to talk about black slaves. Here is Robert E Lee in 1856:
“The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically.”
White people also noticed how blacks sang and danced and found such simple joy in life!
Even Jack Kerouac a hundred years later in the 1950s talks that way. Why is that?
By your reasoning can we conclude that racism against blacks in 1856 or 1956 was no big deal? Does it “reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this racism can possibly be even if it does exist”?
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Abagond said: :”I do not see what comparing Third World poverty with America has to do with whether or not Asians experience racism in America itself. ”
You didn’t actually list any examples, other than higher university admissions requirements from an earlier post.
Abagond said: : “By your reasoning can we conclude that racism against blacks in 1856 or 1956 was no big deal? Does it “reasonably suggest a limit as to how encumbering this racism can possibly be even if it does exist””
Slavery and jim crow are known quantities, and are morally objectionable for quite specific reasons. In this conversation, we’re forced to forensically speculate as to what racism may or may not exist against asian folks because examples have not been provided.
I have received first-hand accounts regarding this subject, and invite you to do the same.
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Randy:
Examples given in the comments of racism against Asians:
1. Dav on university admissions, repeated by you.
2. Ayah on Asian poverty, who said it better than I ever could.
3. Abagond on Cambodian Americans.
And in the post itself:
1. The picture of Manzanar by Ansel Adams at the top of the post.
2. The model minority stereotype.
This post, though, is not “Are whites racist against Asians?” but “How can it be racist if Asians do better?” But now I see that I shall have to write the other post since so many whites seem to think it is all peaches and cream for Asian Americans.
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Randy said:
“Slavery and jim crow are known quantities, and are morally objectionable for quite specific reasons. “
So is racism.
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@randy: well, not all american asians agree with you that they are havin time of their life in good ole US of A.
http://www.asian-nation.org/racism.shtml
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To Abagond, Randy:
Abagond’s points in Italics:
IQ tests are not racist – Asians do better than whites.
The tests are not racist but their true measure of intelligence is not conclusive. NE Asian Americans on average out pace White Americans on IQ and SAT tests. NE Asians in Asia out pace the majority of White (or predominantly White..) countries around the globe on PISA tests however Finland in 2009 was 3rd after Korea and Shanghai. Bully for Sam and his countrymen.
Click to access 46643496.pdf
American health care is not racist – Asians live longer than whites.
American health may indeed be racist but comparing the gap between Black lifespans and White lifespans while ignoring that Asians and Latinos outlive Whites is disingenuous. Another commonly cited factoid is that White infant mortality is lower than Black infant mortality. That’s true but Asian and Latino infant mortality is lower than Whites infant mortality.
American society is not racist – Asians do better than whites.
Is Randy saying there is no racism against Asians..? Do most Whites who live around Asians (such as in NYC or California) think there isn’t racism against Asians..? I doubt it for the latter and I don’t know about the former. I think the question would be, what is the overall impact?
City schools are not racist – Asians go to them and do fine.
In my opinion this is not easily proven either way……. generally in California a school that is heavily Asian in urban areas is out pacing the average California school and I know the top performing schools are majority Asian. I would ask why does a well funded school district such as Washington DC that have a high percentage of staff who are Black (and it’s student body is over 80% Black…) do so poorly…? I have no idea of the level or racism in US schools but the arguments I have seen putting the bulk of the blame on racism seem to be a bit lacking. That doesn’t mean I am convinced that it isn’t the main cause…. just that the arguments I have see have not been convincing.
On an interesting note I read that Black children who are home schooled do not show a performance gap with their White peers. Granted only 2% of Black children are home schooled so there very well could be some self selection going on which could skew the results.
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Uncle Milton,
You raise some interesting questions. The difficulty in understanding racism is that it rarely presents in an obvious fashion. Correlation does not imply causation, but often the only data points one has to work with are correlative.
In the case of failing schools, I suggest talking with teachers and asking their opinion. In private, many (if not most) will admit that poor schools are mostly the result of poor students which is ultimately caused by poor parenting.
Children who are properly disciplined at home do not create unruly classrooms where learning is difficult. As you pointed out, it’s rather unbelievable that a school with a majority black student population and a majority black staff would nonetheless be racially biased against black kids.
Parents of any race who make education a priority and demand academic excellence from their children produce good students.
In that light, your example of high-achieving black homeschooled children makes perfect sense. Asian parents tend to highly value education, and thus it’s no surprise that asian students outpace those from all other demographics.
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Randy: “Perfection cannot be attained and shouldn’t be held as a marker of progress.”
______________________________________________
Why not?
Why is any degree of racism acceptable to you?
Wait… let me correct that. With no evidence whatsoever (as far as I know and as far as I suspect), you claimed that affirmative action was “corrosively racist” which suggests that you feel that it is unacceptable to you and, given its “corrosive” nature (your bogus opinion, not mine), I’m sure the end of affirmative action is something you hold out as a “marker of progress.”
Otherwise, your mouth should be completely closed — not a whimper or a whine about it — because of the very point-of-view you just express. In other words, you and everybody else who doesn’t agree, like or want affirmative action to exist ought to accede to and accept the history-inspired reality that is affirmative action policy/practices.
You (again without proof/evidence) obvious equate the two — affirmative-action = racism. Well, my advise to you, my friend, is (using your logic):
“A completely non-prejudicial society has probably never existed…”
All of which begs the question: what’s your problem with affirmative action? You’re so acceptable of racism… accept affirmative action the say way you readily accept the well founded instances of real/actual racism that quantifiably exists insofar as the US non-white citizens.
______________________________________________
Randy: You seem to be a strong opponent of affirmative action
______________________________________________
Ummm…. In a word: NO!
But go ahead and cry “Uncle!” at the top of your lungs. LMAO!!
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Randy: I look forward to hearing your further thoughts
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I’d really love for you to produce actual, substantive proof/evidence that affirmative action is both “racist” and “corrosive” but, given your response, I have little faith that you’re remotely capable of doing so even if I accepted your curious and weird premise that affirmative action represents some kind of “racial” discrimination.
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Randy: we’re forced to forensically speculate as to what racism may or may not exist
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“Forensically speculate”?!%! LMAO!! WTF is that?
Are “we” forced to forensically speculate to figure out what happened when Jian Li wasn’t admitted to Princeton when white high school classmate(s) from his high school who had lower GPA and test scores was admitted there when he was not? Something that has been a problem at top schools like Princeton and a well documented history at UC Berkeley…
Are “we” forced to forensically speculate that affirmative action is “corrosively racist” when — white women = biggest beneficiaries and — works like “The Price of Admission” document how privileged White students are the ones in the admissions cat-bird seat, be they under-academically-qualified athletes, legacy admits or well-connected/wealthy??
Are “we” forced to forensically speculate that affirmative action was “corrosively racist” and, somehow, the culprit when the UT(exas) schools decided to go with the 10% program after actual research into admissions showed how it was upper-class [white] students who were proven to be the ones displacing lower-class whites like Hopwood?
Are “we” forced to forensically speculate that affirmative action was “corrosively racist” and, somehow, the culprit when, at the time of the anti-affirmative action Washington Initiative 200, the Washington State Department of Personnel indicated that 59.6 percent of state’s affirmative action participants were white women and 18.7 percent were Vietnam-era veterans who were white males?
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Nquest’s quotation from James Baldwin touched on one of the factors. The relationship between black and white is different between that of white and Asian. Black people getting beyond a certain point is often taken as a personal affront and an instinctive ‘click’ comes into play.
re: IQ it could be about cultural overlap to some degree. For instance a lot of mathematics used in the west has eastern roots.
When white people and others know things black people don’t know, we are stupid. When we know things others don’t know, we are still stupid because they cannot understand us.
Others are the conduit for our intelligence we are not for anyone’s, even for our own. Maybe that’s what we should think about that more.
In the end, it depends whether you believe black people are equal to everyone else or not. If you do, then you simply cannot believe black people are in some way degenerate and you will keep the faith enough to find out why. Answers don’t always present themselves on cue things have to unfold to a certain point before you can see things that were obscured before.
If you do not then you’ll be looking for ‘fault’ among black people falling over yourselves not to be tagged with ‘playing the race card’ etc.,
All this shows is self disgust and I don’t recall any particular groups rising toa crescendo of self disgust, so those people could try getting over that before they get snooty about others they deem to have inappropriate standards.
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I think thats a fair analysis (wriggles) of what appears to be happening with Nquest’s responses.
Its often quoted: “See is Believing” but its not.!!! As any experienced magician will show you.
“Believing is Seeing”
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I’m sure this topic is dead, but I didn’t realize people had responded to things I’ve said.
Abagond is correct in what I was referring to. I was definitely not referring to ANY Asian colonization, just American whites in Asia. It sounds like Uncle Milton is saying that is not so. Here in the US, we are never ever taught that we colonized anyone. In the collective white American consciousness – that didn’t happen. A few years back, I was REAMED by a girl for saying that the US occupied Iraq.
Also, I don’t believe that there is a conscious understanding of why American whites view Asians as we do. I don’t think anyone would think “Gee, we never conquered these people militarily, therefore they must be superior in some way.” Realize what our history books here have to say about us, what our media reiterates to us every day, and the stereotypes that float about. Those come from this general knowledge we’ve been passing down since forever.
Anyway, I see what you’re saying Uncle Milton. This is just where I’m coming from. Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail.
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Are you seriously saying that east Asians are not more intelligent than whites or blacks?
IQ test are the best measurement of intelligence that we have despite their flaws.
Secondly, those same results are found not just in the US but in Britain and France, countries with massive immigration from Africa and Asia. In both these countries, blacks do worst in school and best in crime, while the reverse is true among asians. There are even french speaking africans kids doing worst than cambodgian speaking kids.
The crime rate among sub saharan africans in france is six times higher than native french. This in a country with no slavery, no jim crow laws and only voluntary immigration.
In London, West Indians commit half the crime, while representing 12% of the population.
Of course the conclusion is that blacks usually cannot function in white societies, the problem is not “white racism” but multicultural societies themselves.
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I think Asian Americans ON AVERAGE have higher IQs than White Americans, but that is a side effect of immigration policy, not genetics. I DO doubt that Asians worldwide have a markedly higher IQ than White Americans.
I think there is almost no genetically based differences between the races or continents, certainly not on the order of 5 points or more. Mankind spread way too quickly for something like that. History does not show any one part of the species having some sort of inborn advantage like that. The differences you do hear about are the outcome of:
1. Differences in education and
2. Racists playing up studies that support their point while overlooking those that do not.
Some of these studies are out-and-out snake oil or have to be. For example, there is simply no way the average IQ of Jamaicans is 71. Either the study was screwed up or IQ tests are screwed up or something was screwed up. Because it goes against common sense and my own first-hand observations.
My wife and I used to homeschool our two sons. They got excellent scores on state tests. Now they go to a white public school. It is like anti-education. The attitudes of the teachers suck, shockingly so. And this is supposed to be a good school.
As to black crime, I do not remember saying anything about that in the post. In my experience (mainly New York and nearby) black crime is way higher but also in my experience the policing of blacks is extremely screwed up. It is something the reforms of the 1960s seems to have left untouched.
As to France not being racist, you need to learn more French history. Start with Haiti.
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Hey Abagond, why are you afraid that genetics might play a role in intelligence? After all, all races react differently to medicine, to health, and some carry different mutations in their gene, influenced no doubt by the environment that these people had to live in.
By the way, you say that Asian Americans score higher on IQ test, so it must be because of the immigration policy. If that’s the case, how come East Asians score the highest even in their own countries? How come Seraphic Jews and Brahman Indians have the highest average IQ of any ethnic group?
In regards to black crime. I’ll like to know why Blacks commit far more crime then any other race in this country. Or in Brazil, or why the Bahamas, Jamaica has such a high homicide rate, or South Africa.
Also, I don’t even get your point. Are you anti-racist? You are clearly not, you are obsessed with race, hell, according to you, your sons got stupider because they attended white public schools. Odd, when you remember that Latinos, natives, arabs, east Asians, south Asians, Eastern European don’t seem to suffer this severe problem. From the sounds of it, I guess you must be supporting some type of race nationalism.
I’ll tell you a secret, the reason every other race has such a negative opinion of black people is their tendency to blame all their problems on white people, ignoring other factors, then don’t even try to bring up solutions, and they still suck.
Also France was racist towards their colonies in Southeast Asia. Strangely none of them are remotely near to the spectacular failure that is Haiti.
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I can cherry-pick data too and ask equally racist questions.
For example, why is it that Nigeria, the biggest black country in the world, has a far lower murder rate than America? Or, for that matter, a lower murder rate than Finland, France, Ireland, Hungary, Canada, Belgium, the Czech Republic, New Zealand, Latvia, Estonia, Argentina, South Korea, India, the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand and many others?
And if it is as simple as genetics, then why has the murder rate in Jamaica doubled over the past ten years?
In 1990 Jamaica was way safer than New York even though it has way more black people. Now the opposite is true. How does genetics shed any light on that? Why not look at simpler reasons, like the drug trade?
It is not that I am afraid of genetics, it is just that genes change way too slowly to account for the ups and downs of history. It would be like blaming a cold winter on continental drift. The time scale is all wrong.
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To Abagond:
For example, why is it that Nigeria, the biggest black country in the world, has a far lower murder rate than America? Or, for that matter, a lower murder rate than Finland, France, Ireland, Hungary, Canada, Belgium, the Czech Republic, New Zealand, Latvia, Estonia, Argentina, South Korea, India, the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand and many others?
Data about the murder rate in foreign countries varies based upon the source… not as suspect as comparing the IQ among various countries but according to this link Nigeria’s murder rate is higher than all the countries you mentioned save the Philippines. (And you didn’t mention it but the Russian Federation has a higher murder rate than Nigeria..)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/oct/13/homicide-rates-country-murder-data
The article gives links to its sources.
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That makes my point even better: if you look hard enough you can find data to support a chosen point of view.
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To Abagond:
That makes my point even better: if you look hard enough you can find data to support a chosen point of view.
Yes… I was basically agreeing with you…at least when comparing the data for different countries.
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Actually the racism of blacks in America comes in part from their hang-up about being “different!”
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And many of their hang-ups about being “different” actually come from the long history American racism.
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Kelvin:
I am deleting your comment because it seems to be at least partly plagiarized from here:
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/07/12/the-skyrocketing-black-iq/
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@abagond
Kelvin:
I am deleting your comment because it seems to be at least partly plagiarized from here:
Please read read the review article. Colourblind society. I wrote that paper. All those are my words
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There are so much discrimination against Asian in school
why nobody call blacks racist.
Blacks crime against Asians and the school.
Some of them are 18 or almost 18 and police don’t charge them with hate crime.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34979842/ns/us_news-life/t/rights-complaint-filed-philly-school-attacks/#.TlM_HV2fY3k
this happens in alot of school. There
When you are in college, you will see black students try to sell cookies like this.
Black – 50 cents
Asian, White – 2 dollars.
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@ Eiel
Actually, I believe that Mayor Nutter (of Philadelphia) has recently addressed this very point of violence among Black youth in the city. Black discrimination against Asians is just as bad as discrimination against Blacks and voices in the Philadelphia Black community are now working to put an end to it.
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It’s true for those disciplinary minds, who love and care for other races as well as their own don’t do sarcasm. I don’t know if you noticed the same topic up on facebook a wee while ago, the profile photo were but of mockery, anybody who sees it can tell it’s not nice. Photos conveys messages. You didn’t see the hidden meaning of this, maybe you have been lucky you’ve never been discriminated by race, size,… personally or professionally but there are people like that out there who are so unfriendly, unwelcoming, who just wants to destroy others to be happy – I think that is just heartless, so one minded – very unicultural, exceptionally cruel. Maybe you haven’t lived in a country for over 10 years always taking care of others and out of the blue some people who doesn’t know how to be nice just shoves you out of the country.
It’s the 21st Century, it’s better to be kind, caring towards others, have a better sense of the World, being multicultural not only with like minded or with those who speaks the same language plus it’s more humble to show your love and acceptance of others by conversing in their native language being kind and open hearted. Some gestures, behaviors, feelings and emotions speaks louder than words…
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Asian Americans are smart enough to also see that the American society is full of propaganda and though they are openly discriminated against in every steriotypical way immaginable, they keep it to themselves because that is part of their confusiounist and buddhist traditional cultural values. AA contribute a lot and even set a great example for American society. They get discriminated for being good and there will never be anyone in america black or white to stick up for this very small minority
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I think that Asians are even more smarter than we can imagine, because of the fact that they continue to rise despite the prejudices held against them and I believe that in genereal, it takes a lot more of work and intelligence to spark your way up when society does threat you different, and I think there’s way many Asians from an average middle class that admirably get as good as or better grades than rich wealthy white kids with all the resources to do well in school.
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@Mary:
It’s not my intention to discount the gains Asian Americans have made. However, I don’t believe that one ethnic group is more intelligent than another. One also has to consider each group’s history and other cultural influences. Not all obstacles are exactly the same for every group.
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“why is it that Nigeria, the biggest black country in the world, has a far lower murder rate than America? Or, for that matter, a lower murder rate than Finland, France, Ireland, Hungary, Canada, Belgium, the Czech Republic, New Zealand, Latvia, Estonia, Argentina, South Korea, India, the Philippines, Malaysia, Thailand and many others?”
It isn’t. I knew this was bogus without having to look it up, but I did anyway, an lo and behold! This shining example of yours has a murder rate nearly triple that of the USA, which, to my reckoning, is pretty much the opposite of “far lower.” It’s also 15 times that of Canada. The so-called “anti-racist” dialogue is always amusing, but usually the lies are at least a LITTLE less flagrant.
I could go on and on about other absurd comments you’ve made in this thread and in the original posting, but it just gets tiresome.
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Not sure where anyone here is getting their numbers from: The UN has no figure for the Nigerian homicide rate.
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I completely agree that it is wrong to selectively use or misuse statements about Asian-Americans to “prove” that whites are not racist and most of your supporting points are valid.
However, one point is completely wrong:
The ugly, skinhead past of genocide, slavery and Jim Crow most definitely apply to Asians in American.
– There were many series of mass lynchings and massacres in the USA esp. after the Pacific railroad was completed. My great-grandfather was lynched by a white mob in Oregon in the 1890s in a mass massacre. These continued on until the 20th century in some form or another – eg, fires were often started in San Francisco’s chinatown to inflict damage to life and property and the fires there were purposely not attended to during the 1906 Earthquake as well.
– Even you admitted in another post that the Japanese-Americans put in concentration camps during WWII were only one small step away from qualifying as genocide.
– the brutal beating of Vincent Chin in the 1980s occurred about 27 years after Emmett Till – surely you must see actions as these as a type of lynching.
– the forced labour conditions of railroad and mine labourers in the West and agricultural workers in the South fully fulfill any modern or historical definition of slavery
– Jim Crow equally applied to Asians as they were initially classified as Coloured in the first few decades of Jim Crow, the same as Negroes (sic), even attending the coloured schools. True, Asians escaped certain aspects of Jim Crow earlier than blacks, from the 1920s – 1960s (for example, being able to attend white schools from the 1940s – albeit barred from serving roles such as valedictorian), but anti-miscegenation applied as much to them as to blacks and that was the last official Jim Crow law to be abolished in 1967. I know about this as my parents’ marriage was illegal in Maryland and Virginia as late as 1967. I will try to send you a guest post about this.
I am not saying that any of these conditions affected Asian-Americans to the same extent as blacks, but it is completely uninformed and misleading to say that they only applied to blacks.
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@ Jefe
Excellent comment. Thank you. I corrected the post. My knowledge of Asian American history is not what it should be!
I did a post on Vincent Chin:
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Asians are better than White Americans. It is all what I have analyzed and learned about Asians. Asians are better and fit for relationship.
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Mexicans are no good for relationship and White Americans are no good for relationship because they are cold.
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There are individuals in this world with above the par capabilities vis a vis the rest of humanity, either physical, mental, or as a whole. Genetics is essentially the base (biology is the primary factor) responsible for this, the rest, from environment to culture comes past that base reality. I won’t go into the spiritual which is above all else, but religion and philosophy would concede that some beings are spiritually more evolved or maybe more conscious than others. So i guess this issue seems to be on every level . Now since race is an archaic term, it would be daunting at best to quantify this in racial terms. I would say that some human clusters with similar genetic materal between them, display better abilities and capabilities. Of course, for example the peoples who have been for a long time living in europe and their descendants would be more genetically related to each other, and so on for people living in asia, africa etc …. Now the issue is that these related clusters, all would have individuals with better capabilities, but some clusters seem to have a higher proportion of these individuals than others, so this raises the Average Martian cluster at a slightly superior level to the Average Earthian one, just saying.
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@ Etienne
European “superiority” comes from the barrel of a gun.
Anything else is a self-serving mystification of history. If it were a matter of genetics in the way you are thinking of it, Europeans would have been on top all along, not just for the past few hundred years. It would not have taken them 2,500 years to catch up to Egypt and another 2,300 to clearly pass China, just saying.
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@ Etienne
European genetic “superiority” – genetic differences that helped them to get on top – is mostly a matter of resistance to Eurasian livestock and vermin diseases, like swine flu, smallpox and bubonic plague.
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what are you talking about ? i don’t get from where the european superiority argument is spawning from ? i just stated the obvious fact that people from europe and their descendants are more genetically related to each other, like people from asia and their descendants would be more genetically related to each other, and so on…. That’s why there are these clusters of peoples. I accept genetic differences and superiorities between groups of people. That’s the way nature works.
There is a reason why the 100m sprint run records are biased towards a particular group predispositioned to have certain characteristics within their biology, and there is a reason why the marathon run records are biased towards another group. This makes them superior to the others (on average as a cluster) when it comes to that field.
On the other hand the mental characteristics of the ancient peoples of the East and the Mediterranean region where well known, since documentation points civilization in those areas to be the oldest.
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Oh no… HBD again (sigh) The blind leading the comatose…
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@ Kiwi
Excellent summary! Many whites seem to think their model minority stereotype proves that they are NOT racist.
This is frightening and something most whites do not seem to understand. Most black wealth, for example, is pretty new, half of it lost during the Great recession.
For hundreds of years the American government has favoured WHITE wealth creation: slavery, the Homestead Act, the Trail of Tears, the Japanese American internment, the GI bill, redlining, Mexican American deportation, mass incarceration of black men, etc.
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@ Etienne
Fair enough, I did jump the gun. Most people who talk like you think Europeans and north-east Asians are genetically superior as “proved” by IQ tests.
Another genetic advantage whites have is a light skin that allows them to live at higher latitudes when food is scarce. Their “advantages”, though, put them at a disadvantage in the tropics and even subtropics (malaria, etc), so they are dependent on black labour to prosper in those regions. That was done at gunpoint.
The kind of genetic superiority you are talking about, those of “mental characteristics”, are, at this point in history, pseudoscientific – right up there with Dianetics and creationism:
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@abagond busy night huh?
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The stereotyping of black Americans as being particularly weak students is often claimed to be detrimental, in part, because low expectations encourage poor results.
This makes complete sense.
Yet the stereotyping of asian Americans students as being particularly strong students is also claimed to be detrimental.
I’m not so clear on that rationale.
Why wouldn’t I want educators to expect high performance from my (half-asian) kids?
My belief is that the American educational system tends to overly reward mediocrity. For educators to expect more from my kids appears to grant them a net benefit.
If anything, this would appear to help rather than to harm them.
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@ Randy
Educators should expect more from all kids. Not just Asian or half Asian.
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sharina:
I agree.
The stereotype appears to hurt non-asian students more so than asian students, who in some ways may benefit from it.
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@Randy
In my mind I think they will benefit in more than some ways. Kids where I live have no challenge period. It is the mind set of move them in and move them out. Some might get something out of it. I had a friend in the PTO that said her son is in 5th grade and can’t write his darn name. I looked at her like WTF! I have had to correct my daughter as I watch her get into this lax mode of learning with the other kids. The kids figure “why challenge us…we have no child left behind.”
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Two way mirror of confusion for both asian and black to look up/down at each other. Stereotype created a divide, conquer and broken peace treaty tactic. Ignorance black minds would wonder, if the asian is the new white man.Ignorance asian minds would wonder,I’m lucky to be asian than black.Both parties need to be aware of this third party tricks.I reading comments from white male aka cockologists on some forum about dick for six years straight.These cockologists compared asian and black birds to feel better
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What I’ve gained from this article is that the only immigrant we should allow are intelligent Asian people.
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@George Washington
…the only immigrant we should allow are intelligent Asian people.
Wouldn’t it be better for “intelligent Asian people” to stay in Asia and build it up?
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